Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted; also appearing, Taylor J. Daigneault, Esquire, for Kathleen Bell; Matthew Schwartz, Esquire, and Ron Regwan, Esquire, for Laura Hart McKinny.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(Pages 43806 through 43813, volume 216B, transcribed and sealed under separate cover.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. The Defendant is again present before the court with his counsel, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Cochran, Mr. Bailey and Mr. Blasier. The People are represented by Mr. Hodgman, Mr. Yochelson, Mr. Darden and Miss Lewis. The jury is not present. Counsel, the record should reflect that this morning, as a continuation of a hearing that began last week, the court conducted a 1054.7 hearing with the Prosecution and I will advise Defense counsel of the following orders by the Court: As to Dr. De Forest, the court will order the disclosure of the package of photographs and notes by Dr. De Forest as they relate to the sock examinations conducted by Dr. De Forest. My understanding, Mr. Hodgman, is the photographs that you intend to turn over are the photograph that you turned over to the court for examination; is that correct?

MR. HODGMAN: Yes. Good morning, your Honor, and that is correct.

THE COURT: All right. I will give this to Mrs. Robertson for turning over to the Defense. I'm going to direct you to turn over any written materials from Dr. De Forest by the close of business today. My recollection is you indicated that those had to be numbered for discovery purposes?

MR. HODGMAN: Yes, your Honor. And for purposes of the record, I have turned over to Mr. Neufeld this morning an unnumbered set of notes. We will number them per our formal discovery procedures and provide a second copy later in the day.

THE COURT: All right. Counsel, the--where is Mr. Douglas? Mr. Douglas?

MR. DOUGLAS: Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Hodgman advised the court that Dr. De Forest would be testifying only to the sock or very limited avenues of inquiry. I had a concern, given the number of notes that Dr. De Forest had, that there might be some Brady materials, so Mr. Hodgman has given to me a complete set of Dr. De Forest's notes, plus the notes that he has turned over to you, so that I can compare both, and I will have to examine those over the noon hour, or perhaps this evening, to see if there is any Brady material or anything else that I think should be disclosed.

MR. DOUGLAS: Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: So you might want to remind me of that later this week.

MR. HODGMAN: Your Honor, point of correction if I may. Mr. De Forest will be testifying with regard to the socks, but it is also possible he will be covering some other limited areas as well, so for the edification of the court and counsel, there may be some other areas involved.

THE COURT: All right. Second item was a photograph of Mr. Simpson wearing a glove and the court noted that it would allow the Prosecution to withhold discovery of this item until the investigation had been completed. I understand that that has been accomplished; is that correct?

MR. YOCHELSON: Yes, your Honor. In essence, yes.

THE COURT: The photograph and notes you turned over to the court, this is the copy you intend on turning over to the Defense, correct?

MR. YOCHELSON: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: I will likewise direct Mrs. Robertson to give this to the Defense. All right. As to Mr. Bodziak, Mr. Hodgman?

MR. HODGMAN: Yes, your Honor. We have indicated to the court, as well as counsel, that we do intend to call Mr. Bodziak in our rebuttal case. We have no report from Mr. Bodziak, nor do we have any reports as of yet. If and when we receive those we will turn over those over to the Defense in prompt fashion.

THE COURT: This is a rebuttal case. What is your offer of proof as to Mr. Bodziak?

MR. HODGMAN: Mr. Bodziak will be testifying with regard to his impression of some impressions and the--at the Bundy crime scene on the walkway, and in addition to--in a limited fashion to some general testimony about what one can perceive or can't perceive with regard--in crime scene photographs. And then based upon some information contained in his book, which I believe the Defense has, various limitations of what one should testify to based upon what can be deprived from photographs. So this is still being refined, your Honor. As it becomes more refined we will--and to the extent that we get notes, we will provide that to the Defense.

THE COURT: All right. As to Mr. Popovich, do you intend or have you made your decision as to whether or not you are going to call Mr. Popovich?

MR. HODGMAN: We intend to call Mr. Popovich. We have turned over notes that we have received from Mr. Popovich. At the moment the Defense has what we have and no more. To the extent that we get anything in addition from Mr. Popovich, we will turn that over as well.

THE COURT: All right. What is your offer of proof since it is likewise going to be a rebuttal witness? What is your offer of proof as to Mr. Popovich?

MR. HODGMAN: As contained in the notes that we have turned over to the Defense, Mr. Popovich's tours, if you will, of the Department of Justice crime lab, as well as the LAPD crime lab and observations of both those locations and some related testimony regarding contamination.

THE COURT: All right. And lastly, in response to Mr. Neufeld's question, you were going to advise Defense counsel and the court whether or not at this time you intend on calling an EDTA witness.

MR. HODGMAN: At this time, your Honor, we do not intend to call any EDTA witnesses.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Douglas--where did Mr. Douglas go? All right. Any other comment as to these discovery matters?

MR. DOUGLAS: No, your Honor. Ready to proceed.

THE COURT: All right. All right. Anything else we need to take up before we invite the jurors to rejoin us?

MR. DAIGNEAULT: Your Honor, I wonder if I may be heard briefly on behalf of Miss Bell?

THE COURT: Good morning, counsel. Would you identify yourself for the record.

MR. DAIGNEAULT: My name is Taylor Daigneault. I am the attorney from Miss Bell. As your Honor knows from the declaration that Miss Bell provided at an earlier time there has been an intensive investigation of Miss Bell. I would like to attend this morning and--before the jury came in I would like to ask the court if I could be heard on objections concerning right of privacy and possibly attorney/client privilege. My concern, your Honor, is that the investigation of Miss Bell has been very intense, but as I have seen the things that have unfolded in this courtroom in the past few weeks, I think that her testimony is--is almost beyond question the truthful testimony, and I would like the court to give some quarter to protecting her privacy rights, if the need arises, in terms of the cross-examination or her direct examination.

THE COURT: All right. Counsel, I will allow you to sit inside the bar at the time that Miss Bell is being questioned and you may of course raise any--on her behalf, any attorney/client privilege objections that you might have. Issues of privacy, though, are a different question, and if you wish time to consult with your client and consult with other counsel, I will allow you leave to do so.

MR. DAIGNEAULT: I haven't had an opportunity to talk with any member of the Prosecution team, so I don't know what they are going to inquire into in terms of her personal past. I do know that the telephone records were subpoenaed, the numbers were called, her social friends have been contacted. Several investigators from the District Attorney's office called her hair dresser, or so I have been advised, and I don't know what they have discovered along the way, but I would--if they are going to inquire into her personal life, she has--she has a family law file that is some twenty years old, I believe, or something close to that. I would just like some limitations into this field, especially in light of developments recently. Her testimony I think is--if your Honor would weigh these factors, I think her testimony is not all that remarkable in light of what other evidence has been submitted to the court recently.

THE COURT: All right. Well, the court is apprised of the issue.

MR. DAIGNEAULT: Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, counsel. If you want, you can take a seat over next to Mr. Regwan over there.

MR. DAIGNEAULT: Yes.

THE COURT: Miss Lewis, good morning.

MS. LEWIS: Good morning, your Honor. A couple of brief matters. First I believe that Natalie Singer is here or available certainly to the Defense, since she has been moved to second on their witness list for this morning. The first request is that we have an opportunity to interview her, which we have not had previously. The short break that was taken Friday Mr. Darden was not able to accomplish that during the short break taken Friday, so we would request that we be permitted to interview her somewhere up in our offices or wherever is convenient.

THE COURT: If she is willing to be interviewed, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: No problem, your Honor.

THE COURT: We will probably take a recess between witnesses, I suspect, given our late start this morning.

MS. LEWIS: That is Natalie Singer. Mr. Bailey was just inquiring. The other thing I wanted to bring to the court's attention is that the Defense has on their current witness list Kathleen Bell, then Natalie Singer, then Andrea Terry. It is my expectation, and these are Mr. Darden's witnesses so I don't mean to--but it is our expectation that we will be bringing a motion after Kathleen Bell testifies renewing in essence the motion I argued a few weeks ago with regard to the additional witnesses being cumulative. Detective Fuhrman was cross-examined with regard to Andrea Terry, and if they choose for tactical reasons to try and wedge in Miss Singer--

THE COURT: Well, that is an issue we need to address once we see Miss Bell.

MS. LEWIS: All right. And I just want to remind the court, the court had ruled that no one else--there would be a possible issue that they be cumulative once Bell and Terry testified.

THE COURT: I wouldn't call it a ruling that there is a possible issue, but yes, the issue is there.

MS. LEWIS: All right.

THE COURT: I think we discussed this ad nauseam Friday.

MS. LEWIS: I heard the discussion. I wasn't present, but I did hear of it.

THE COURT: All right.

MS. LEWIS: The only other thing I wanted to mention, your Honor, is this morning I filed a responsive brief to the Defense motion, renewed motion to suppress based on newly discovered evidence, and I have noted in the Defense line-up they anticipate reaching argument on that at some point today. And of course the court must have an opportunity to read our response before I'm sure we will be able to assess the issues and to rule on the matter, and I just wanted to alert the court that it had been filed and it had been available.

THE COURT: I think that is an optimistic scenario timewise. All right. Mr. Bailey, are you ready to proceed?

MR. BAILEY: I am, your Honor, but first let me point out you are not being given the facts. On Friday I put on the record that Miss Singer had been inquired of as to whether she wished to be interviewed and her response was that they have known about me for six months, I have a lawyer in Nashville, I have one here who went out of town for the weekend, and they are too late. I'm not going to talk to them. Furthermore, why should I be trashed the way Kathleen Bell was? I get a call from Mr. Hodgman last night wanting to interview her. I said, you know what is in the record. I can't speak for her lawyer. She hasn't changed her mind. That was true this morning. So taking a recess to interview her, which they know full well is an imposition on a much beleaguered jury--

THE COURT: All right. We will take that up.

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, there will be a 402 as relates to Miss Singer. We have no specific details as to what she is going to testify to. We have no offer of proof.

THE COURT: Like I said, we will take this up after we finish Miss Bell. All right. Are you ready?

MR. BAILEY: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. Deputy Magnera, let's have the jury, please.

(Brief pause.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

AN UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Judge Ito, I have a message to you from God. God wants you to play the tapes. This is a message from God.

(An unidentified woman is escorted from the courtroom.)

(Brief pause.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Let the record reflect that we have been rejoined by all the members of our jury. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

THE COURT: Good to see all of you back. And I believe that we are back on track and we are going to proceed accordingly. Mr. Bailey, you may call the Defense next witness.

MR. BAILEY: The Defense calls Kathleen Bell, if it please the court.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Bell.

Kathleen Bell, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

MS. BELL: I do.

THE CLERK: Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

MS. BELL: My name is Kathleen Bell.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Bell, if you would just sit back and then pull the microphone toward you, please.

MS. BELL: (Witness complies.)

THE COURT: Thank you, ma'am.

MS. BELL: Kathleen Bell, K-A-T-H-L-E-E-N, thank you, B-E-L-L.

MR. BAILEY: Try and keep your voice up, Miss Bell, so the last people in the jury box can hear you.

THE COURT: Excuse me, Mr. Bailey. Deputy Long, would you pull the easel back there. I think it is in the way--blocking juror 7.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Bailey.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BAILEY

MR. BAILEY: Miss Bell, without giving a street address, can you tell us where you live?

MS. BELL: In Long Beach.

MR. BAILEY: And how long have you lived in that area?

MS. BELL: Since, let's see, about a year and a half.

MR. BAILEY: All right. In 1985 and `6 where were you living?

MS. BELL: In Palos Verdes.

MR. BAILEY: And did you have an occupation or profession at that time?

MS. BELL: Yes, real estate agent.

MR. BAILEY: On who did you work for as a real estate agent?

MS. BELL: Century 21, Bob Maher realty in Redondo Beach.

MR. BAILEY: Can you pull that mike in just a little bit?

THE COURT: Can you spell "Maher" for the court reporter, please.

MS. BELL: M-a-h-e-r.

THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Bailey.

MR. BAILEY: When did you begin working for Bob Maher at century 21?

MS. BELL: I received my real estate license in September of 1985 and I started working for Bob Maher I believe in October.

MR. BAILEY: Can you tell me whether or not in the immediate vicinity of your real estate office there was located a Marine recruiting station?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Did you know any of the personnel who worked in that station?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Can you name any of them?

MS. BELL: Joe Foss and Ron Rohr.

MR. BAILEY: And how would you encounter them in your daily business?

MS. BELL: Umm, as part of my real estate practice we were supposed to make cold calls and knock on doors and all of that and so during the cold calling sessions I would try to avoid that as best as possible and so I would go walking around the building. And at one time I encountered the Marines at the Marine recruiting center and I just stopped into say hello and kind of to take up some time.

MR. BAILEY: Where was this station located, the recruiting station?

MS. BELL: I was on the second floor and they were on the first floor of this Marine recruit--of the shopping center.

MR. BAILEY: Was your office immediately above theirs?

MS. BELL: Umm, it was above the Marine recruiting center.

MR. BAILEY: How did you get to and from your office?

MS. BELL: Driving.

MR. BAILEY: Once you got to the area?

MS. BELL: Oh, I went and I just walked to the Marine recruiting center down the stairs and then back up. Is that what you are asking?

MR. BAILEY: All right. Do you know a person named Mark Fuhrman?

MS. BELL: Yes, I do.

MR. BAILEY: When did you first see Mr. Fuhrman, according to your best recollection?

MS. BELL: Umm, between the time that I was working for Bob Maher realty century 21, it was between 1985 and `86.

MR. BAILEY: And what were the circumstances the first time you saw him, as opposed to encountered him?

MS. BELL: The first time I saw him I walked down to the Marine recruiting center just to say hello to the Marines and they had a man sitting there and I thought that they were in a meeting, so I just kind of tapped on the window and waved and went back upstairs.

MR. BAILEY: Were you introduced to Mr. Fuhrman at that time?

MS. BELL: No.

MR. BAILEY: Did you have any conversation with him or anyone else inside the station?

MS. BELL: No, I did not.

MR. BAILEY: Could you see what they were doing as you walked by?

MS. BELL: They were just speaking to each other.

MR. BAILEY: Did you notice anything unusual about Mr. Fuhrman at that time?

MS. BELL: Umm, I thought that he was handsome.

MR. BAILEY: All right.

MS. BELL: And I did notice that.

MR. BAILEY: Did you notice anything about his height?

MS. BELL: He was sitting in a chair but I could tell that he was tall, yes.

MR. BAILEY: What was the next time that you encountered Mr. Fuhrman?

MS. BELL: The next time was at that same Marine recruiting center and I came down, and prior to this time the Marines told me that it was okay for me to--that it would have been okay for me to come in that--the previous time.

MR. BAILEY: You can't tell us what the Marines told you.

MS. BELL: I'm sorry.

MR. BAILEY: You can tell us that you had a conversation with them after you first saw Mr. Fuhrman?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Without saying what was said, as a result of that conversation, when you next saw Mr. Fuhrman in their office, what did you do?

MS. BELL: I went inside the Marine recruiting center and I introduced myself and I just began speaking to all of the men.

MR. BAILEY: Who was present at the time?

MS. BELL: Joe Foss, Ron Rohr and Mark Fuhrman.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Had you at that time any special reason for wanting to meet Mr. Fuhrman?

MS. BELL: I thought that he would be interested in meeting my girlfriend Andrea Terry.

MR. BAILEY: What is there about Andrea Terry that you thought might match up well with Mr. Fuhrman?

MS. BELL: She is six feet tall and really beautiful and I thought that--she liked tall men and so I thought that she might want to meet him as well.

MR. BAILEY: All right. How did you introduce yourself to Mr. Fuhrman?

MS. BELL: Umm, I just said hello and the Marines actually introduced me and I don't remember the first kind of shooting the breeze kind of first part of the conversation. It was just very mild and I was talking about Andrea. I began talking about Andrea.

MR. BAILEY: All right. What did you tell him about Andrea Terry?

MS. BELL: I said that I have a girlfriend--

MR. DARDEN: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

MR. BAILEY: Did you tell Mr. Fuhrman something about a girl named Andrea Terry, without saying precisely what it was?

MS. BELL: Yes, I did.

MR. BAILEY: All right. In the course of giving him that information did you mention the name of anyone who is a public figure?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: What was that name?

MR. DARDEN: Hearsay, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BELL: Marcus Allen.

MR. BAILEY: What happened when you mentioned the name Marcus Allen to Mark Fuhrman?

MS. BELL: His demeanor changed and his attitude toward me changed.

MR. BAILEY: And what, if anything, did he say?

MS. BELL: He said that if--when he sees a black man with a white woman driving in a car he pulls them over.

MR. BAILEY: And what did you say?

MS. BELL: I was taken back a little bit and so I kind of paused and I looked at the Marines and I just said, "Well, what if they didn't do anything wrong?"

MR. BAILEY: What did he say?

MS. BELL: He said he would find something.

MR. BAILEY: All right. And did you talk any further about that hypothetical of a black man riding with a white woman being pulled over?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: What else was said?

MS. BELL: I asked, "What if they are in love?"

MR. BAILEY: And what did he say to that?

MS. BELL: He said, "That is disgusting."

MR. BAILEY: The fact that a black man might be in love with a white woman was disgusting?

MR. DARDEN: Objection. That is leading, your Honor.

THE COURT: Rephrase the question.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

MR. BAILEY: What was he referring to in your understanding when he used the word "Disgusting"?

MS. BELL: That I said--I asked him what if they were in love and I think the idea of them being in love was disgusting to him.

MR. DARDEN: Objection, objection to strike, calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BAILEY: After the word "Disgusting" was uttered, what was next said by either of you?

MS. BELL: Well, again I looked at the Marines because I had spoken to them before and they didn't seem to be mean people, and so I was waiting for some kind of reaction from them, and then, umm, I just was kind of--I just kind of paused and then he said, "If I had my way I would gather"--"All the niggers would be gathered together and burned."

MR. BAILEY: All right. And what was your reaction when he told you that he would gather the niggers all together and burn them?

MS. BELL: Umm, I'm sorry, I didn't--I thought that that was--nobody ever said that to me before. I heard the "N" word before, but nobody ever said something like that to me before.

MR. BAILEY: Had you ever used, in your conversation, the "N" word with Mark Fuhrman?

MS. BELL: Oh, with Mark Fuhrman?

MR. BAILEY: Right.

MS. BELL: Never, no.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Did you respond in any way, other than becoming upset when Mr. Fuhrman told you what he would like to do with reference to burning an entire race?

MS. BELL: I just--I looked at the Marines and I kind of--they weren't saying anything. They kind of just shrugged their shoulders, and so I kind of got teary-eyed and I left.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Now, can you help us with the date of this encounter, the first encounter, the second time you saw Mark Fuhrman, best recollection?

MS. BELL: The--I know it is between that year that I worked at century 21 Bob Maher and I know that Andrea--she was at BYU going to school and she only returned from school during holidays, so I would say that it is within the holiday times, and I--I really can't be extremely accurate.

MR. BAILEY: Miss Bell, without going into anything that was said between you and Andrea, can you tell us a little about her educational schedule during this period of time?

MS. BELL: She would come back for holidays, like I think thanksgiving, mainly Easter and Christmas, and then the summer.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

MS. BELL: And I think it was a long period of time that she was back.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Are you able to relate this experience where Mr. Fuhrman surprised you with that language to any period of the year that would help us determine which of her vacations it might have been?

MS. BELL: I tried to--try to--by the weather, but the weather is all the same in California, and I really think it is more toward the summertime or maybe--maybe Easter vacation and then summer vacation, because I seem to have been speaking to Andrea quite a bit throughout this period of time and she really wasn't home for any long period of time except for the summer.

MR. BAILEY: How long had you known Andrea Terry?

MS. BELL: I have known her for many years. She went to my high school and we weren't close friends until a couple of years after high school.

MR. BAILEY: And Brigham Young University when she was there attending, where is that located?

MS. BELL: In Utah.

MR. BAILEY: Is she a resident or native of Utah or of California, if you know?

MS. BELL: I believe she was born in California.

MR. BAILEY: As I understand it, you had talked to her several times in this general time frame?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: And would you talk to her when she was at college on a regular basis or only when she was home?

MS. BELL: Not very often at college; only when she was home.

MR. BAILEY: Can you tell us how much time transpired between the moment that you first noticed Mark Fuhrman talking to the Marines but did not intervene, until you introduced yourself to him?

MS. BELL: At least a week probably, no more than three weeks.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Did you see Mark Fuhrman again?

MS. BELL: After the second--

MR. BAILEY: After this first encounter?

MS. BELL: After the first encounter, yes.

MR. BAILEY: I'm trying to distinguish seeing him from encountering him where you interact or have a conversation.

MS. BELL: Right.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Now time no. 3?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Is the second encounter; is that correct?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Where you have some talk together?

MS. BELL: I didn't really speak to him. We kind of exchanged glances.

MR. BAILEY: Where did you see him on this third occasion?

MS. BELL: At Hennessey's tavern on Catalina Avenue in Redondo Beach.

MR. BAILEY: Was this an establishment with which you were familiar?

MS. BELL: Somewhat, yes.

MR. BAILEY: Had you been there before?

MS. BELL: Oh, yes.

MR. BAILEY: Had you any prearrangement, to your knowledge, either you or Andrea Terry, to meet Mark Fuhrman at Hennessey's that day?

MS. BELL: Oh, no, no prior arrangement.

MR. BAILEY: Are you able to differentiate these meetings as between `85 and `86? You have said that it occurred in one year or the other. What would be your best recollection?

MS. BELL: Probably `86.

MR. BAILEY: Either the spring or summer?

MS. BELL: Probably the summer.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. But in any event, you saw him in the Marine Corps recruiting station on more than 10 occasions during this period?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Now, tell me the circumstances of your meeting at Hennessey's tavern. Who were you with?

MS. BELL: I was with Andrea.

MR. BAILEY: What was the purpose or occasion for you being with her? Anything special?

MS. BELL: No, we just stopped.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Why did you go to Hennessey's that day?

MS. BELL: Umm, just to--it is kind of like a local pub, almost like a cheers or something like that, and we just wanted to visit with people.

MR. BAILEY: Can you tell us the time of day?

MS. BELL: I cannot.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. When you were--arrived at Hennessey's, what did you do?

MS. BELL: We just sat down and we just started talking, and usually there are a lot of people that we grew up with that visit there and so we say hello to those people and that is it. I remember where we were sitting and all of that.

MR. BAILEY: Are you familiar with the floor layout at Hennessey's tavern?

MS. BELL: Uh-huh, yes.

MR. BAILEY: Can you give the court and jury some brief description as you walk in the door?

MS. BELL: You walk in Hennessey's and there are some--there are some tables on the left-hand side and the bar is on the left and then on the right there are tables as well and then kind of just one bar going through the middle, and umm, Andrea and I were sitting facing the door.

MR. BAILEY: Were you in a booth or at a table?

MS. BELL: It is considered a booth, yeah.

MR. BAILEY: How many booths are in the bar?

MS. BELL: Oh, I don't know.

MR. BAILEY: All right.

MS. BELL: Probably a good guess would be about ten.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. And what did do you after you sat down?

MS. BELL: We--

MR. BAILEY: Did you order something?

MS. BELL: Just were talking--yes. We ordered--I probably ordered cranberry juice with lime and Andrea I don't--I don't even know. We are not real drinkers.

MR. BAILEY: Did either of you order any alcoholic beverages that day?

MS. BELL: Pardon me?

MR. BAILEY: Did either of you order or consume any alcohol while you were in the bar?

MS. BELL: I did not. I don't think Andrea did either.

MR. BAILEY: After you had been there for some period of time did you notice someone you had seen before?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Who was that?

MS. BELL: Mark Fuhrman.

MR. BAILEY: Was he with anyone?

MS. BELL: Yes, he was.

MR. BAILEY: Can you describe the person that he was with?

MS. BELL: Slightly. She was--it was a woman and with sandy blond hair.

MR. BAILEY: And can you give any further description as to her height and weight and so forth?

MS. BELL: No, I really can't. Probably about 5-7.

MR. BAILEY: How was Mark Fuhrman dressed on that occasion?

MS. BELL: I don't remember.

MR. BAILEY: How had he been dressed when you talked to him in the Marine recruiting station, if you recall?

MS. BELL: I think at one time he was wearing sweats and that is all I can remember.

MR. BAILEY: Did you ever see him wearing a police uniform?

MS. BELL: No.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. How long had you been in Hennessey's when he sat down?

MS. BELL: I don't recall.

MR. BAILEY: And when he sat down what, if anything, did do you or say?

MS. BELL: He and this woman sat down facing us and so I saw him immediately and it was very uncomfortable, so I told Andrea that that is that man that I told her about that I at first wanted to set her up with, and then I found out what he believed and, umm, then I asked her if we could leave.

MR. BAILEY: Did he show any signs of recognition while looking in your direction?

MS. BELL: I don't know if he did at first, but as I left did he.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. In what way did he indicate that he might have seen you before?

MS. BELL: He just gave me kind of a nasty look.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Now, what happened after you said to Andrea that you felt uncomfortable and would like to leave the establishment?

MS. BELL: She said "Okay" and I thought that she was going with me, and umm, she--we started walking toward the door. Mark Fuhrman and this woman were sitting as you walk into Hennessey's and you take your first right. He was sitting at a table to the right and he was sitting facing us. So Andrea and I started walking to the door and when we were walking toward the door we were walking toward Mark Fuhrman and this woman, and she started kind of veeing off toward his table, and I was trying to catch her and telling her, you know, don't--what are you doing, you know, and she kind of had a--kind of a grin on her face like she was going to go get his goat or something like that.

MR. BAILEY: Uh-huh. Did you stay within earshot of the two?

MS. BELL: No, I did not.

MR. BAILEY: What did you do?

MS. BELL: I went to the door. I'm not sure if I waited in my car or waited outside, but I know I left.

MR. BAILEY: Can you recall hearing any conversation from either Andrea Terry, Mark Fuhrman or the lady that was with him that day?

MS. BELL: I did not hear anything.

MR. BAILEY: Can you tell us whether or not you saw her sit down as you walked out the door?

MS. BELL: I thought she was standing facing them, but, umm, I think she was just standing facing them.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. And how long was it before she rejoined you wherever you were?

MS. BELL: I don't think it was any more than ten minutes, probably five to ten minutes.

MR. BAILEY: All right. You stood either outside the bar or went and got in your automobile?

MS. BELL: Right.

MR. BAILEY: Is that correct? What kind of automobile were you driving at that time?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, irrelevant.

THE COURT: Irrelevant.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

MR. BAILEY: Did you at any time have conversation with Mark Fuhrman concerning astrology?

MS. BELL: As embarrassing as it is, yes. When I met him--

MR. DARDEN: I'm going to object at this time. Hearsay, irrelevant, nonresponsive.

THE COURT: Did you have a conversation with him?

MS. BELL: Briefly, yes.

THE COURT: When was this?

MS. BELL: The second time I met him I found out he was Aquarius.

MR. BAILEY: All right.

MR. BAILEY: When astrology is relevant, what is important to know about a person before looking at their astrological signs?

MS. BELL: I really--I don't know. There is this book that I was given by someone to read and it was talking about how people relate to each other, so I briefly read it and I asked when his birthday was and I remember thinking in my head that he was Aquarius.

MR. BAILEY: What was his sign?

MS. BELL: Aquarius.

MR. BAILEY: Aquarius. What birthdates does that cover? What range?

MS. BELL: Oh, boy. Let's see. I'm going to think about this. It is January--

MR. BAILEY: Let me put it a different way. Is February 5th within the range of Aquarius?

MS. BELL: Yes, it is. It is.

MR. BAILEY: Did you have any talk with Mr. Fuhrman about the significance of his astrological sign, if you can remember?

MS. BELL: Very briefly. I just--

MR. DARDEN: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BAILEY: Did that occur before the remarks were made in the Marine recruiting station?

MS. BELL: About the black man with the white woman?

MR. BAILEY: About his birthday?

MS. BELL: I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question.

MR. BAILEY: I'm trying to place the time that you learned his birthday.

MS. BELL: Okay.

MR. BAILEY: When did that happen?

MS. BELL: It happened when I started talking about my girlfriend Andrea.

THE COURT: This was for the purpose to see if they were compatible?

MS. BELL: Yes.

THE COURT: Next question.

MR. BAILEY: After Andrea came out, and without telling us what she said, did you have any conversation with her about what had transpired while you stepped out of Hennessey's and she was still inside at Fuhrman's table?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

MS. BELL: I just asked what--actually I didn't really even ask what was said. She just said, "Oh, God."

MR. BAILEY: Don't tell us what she said.

MS. BELL: All right.

MR. BAILEY: My only question is did she tell you something about the conversation?

MS. BELL: Yes, she did.

MR. BAILEY: And what did you two do after that?

MS. BELL: I don't recall. We probably just went home.

MR. BAILEY: Did you ever see Mark Fuhrman again?

MS. BELL: I saw him driving in his car once and I saw him on television.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Now, apart from the television, when you saw him driving in his car do you have any recollection of what kind of vehicle he was driving?

MS. BELL: I believe it was an International Scout, like a utility vehicle, and it was kind of a pea green and white.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Do you have any personal knowledge as to whether he owned that vehicle or was simply driving it?

MS. BELL: I don't know, but I saw it in front of the Marine recruiting center and I saw him driving it later and I saw it parked in front of Hennessey's and that prevented Andrea from going in, Andrea and me.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Did you ever personally see Mark Fuhrman again?

MS. BELL: No, I did not.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Now, you have told us that your second seeing of Mark Fuhrman and your first encounter was probably within three weeks of your first noticing him in the station, when you didn't stop?

MS. BELL: Probably.

MR. BAILEY: Can you relate the Hennessey's bar encounter to the one in the Marine Corps recruiting station in terms of time?

MS. BELL: Probably again about three weeks or a month.

MR. BAILEY: All right. And the occasion in which you simply saw him drive by and had no conversation with him, how much after Hennessey's bar might that have occurred?

MS. BELL: I don't know, but again Andrea was still in town.

MR. BAILEY: All right. What is the longest you would expect Andrea to be in town if she were on other than a summer vacation from Brigham young?

MS. BELL: She may have skipped a quarter and I'm not even sure if they are on the quarter system there, but she may have skipped a quarter, and I'm not sure when that was, when that fell.

MR. BAILEY: How did you learn Mark Fuhrman's name? Did someone tell you the name or did he tell you?

MS. BELL: When I was introduced to him at the Marine recruiting center I was introduced to him as mark.

MR. BAILEY: Who did the introduction?

MS. BELL: I believe it was Ron Rohr.

MR. BAILEY: All right. As a result of the remarks that Mark Fuhrman said to you on your first encounter--

MS. BELL: Uh-huh.

MR. BAILEY: --where he talked to you, did you do anything with respect to the LAPD that you can recall?

MS. BELL: Yes--

MR. BAILEY: What did you do?

MS. BELL: --I did. What did I do? I called the LAPD. I tried anyway. And it wasn't 911, but it was--I seem to recall Culver or Olympic, and I don't know if that means a street or a district or I don't--

MR. BAILEY: Do you remember how you got the number that you called to place this complaint?

MS. BELL: I called I think the operator or 411.

MR. BAILEY: And asked for whom, if you can remember?

MS. BELL: I asked for the Los Angeles Police Department in Westwood because that is where he said that he worked at that time, and I don't think there was such a thing, and she was saying, well, I can give you Olympic or Culver or something like that.

MR. BAILEY: Did you get a number and eventually call it?

MS. BELL: I did.

MR. BAILEY: Do you have any recollection of whom you may have spoken with?

MS. BELL: Umm, I believe it was a woman, and I hate to be so vague, but I really don't recall, but I truly believe it was a woman.

MR. BAILEY: And can you recall whether or not Mark Fuhrman's name was used during your conversation with whatever woman you spoke to?

MS. BELL: Well, I said that there is a police officer--

MR. DARDEN: Objection as hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BELL: I said that they have a police officer named Mark and I told her that he had a racial problem and that I thought they should know, but I didn't have any other information about him and I was afraid to ask the Marines his last name.

MR. BAILEY: Why didn't you want to ask the Marines?

MS. BELL: I didn't want to seem like I was trying to get information about him to get him into trouble, because I was afraid of him.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Did you ever follow up on that call or go see anyone?

MS. BELL: No, I did not.

MR. BAILEY: Were you asked to do anything further by the woman at the other end of the police line?

MS. BELL: No, not at all.

MR. BAILEY: When was the next time you saw, either personally or on television, Mark Fuhrman?

MS. BELL: I did see him on television last year.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Was that perhaps during the preliminary hearing?

MS. BELL: Yes, it was.

MR. BAILEY: Might it have been in July of `94?

MS. BELL: Yes, it was.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. And where were you when you noticed Mark Fuhrman on the screen?

MS. BELL: I was at home.

MR. BAILEY: And what was he doing when you first noticed him?

MS. BELL: He was sitting as a witness.

MR. BAILEY: And was he testifying?

MS. BELL: Yes, he was testifying.

MR. BAILEY: Now, my understanding is that from the time you last saw him driving the pea green International Scout, until you saw him on television, you had no direct encounters or indirect encounters with Mark Fuhrman?

MS. BELL: Not, no.

MR. DARDEN: Objection, misstates the testimony.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BAILEY: You have indicated that you were afraid of him in a way. Can you explain why that is so?

MS. BELL: I think that what he said was--

MR. DARDEN: This is irrelevant, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. BAILEY: All right.

MR. BAILEY: Can you describe his demeanor when he spoke the words using the "N" word about the black race? How did his face appear?

MR. DARDEN: Irrelevant, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BELL: He seemed disgusted.

MR. BAILEY: Did you see any signs whatsoever of jocularity in his face as if he were pulling your leg with these outrageous remarks?

MR. DARDEN: Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BAILEY: All right. When you saw Mark Fuhrman on television, did you recognize him immediately?

MS. BELL: Immediately.

MR. BAILEY: And how did you recognize him?

MS. BELL: I just--I saw him and it all came back, every bit of it.

MR. BAILEY: All right. You were remembering now what about the Mark Fuhrman you had encountered back in `85 or `6?

MS. BELL: I remembered what he said.

MR. BAILEY: Did you remember his facial appearance?

MS. BELL: Oh, yes.

MR. BAILEY: He was a handsome man?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: And his height?

MS. BELL: He was sitting again, but I saw him and his face.

THE COURT: Counsel, Miss Bell, would you allow Mr. Bailey to finish asking the question before you start answering, and Mr. Bailey, would you allow her to finish answering before you start to ask the question.

MS. BELL: I'm sorry.

MR. BAILEY: What, if anything, did you do after seeing Mr. Fuhrman testifying in the Simpson case?

MS. BELL: I called the news show that I first saw him on. That was the first thing that I did. I wasn't sure what to do, and I just know that I felt afraid again. I felt that same feeling that I felt in that Marine recruiting center when I saw him on television, and I thought that someone should know and I didn't know what to do. So I called the news company and I told some young person on the phone that--what they just showed was true, there is something about this man that is--

MR. DARDEN: Objection, this is hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. BAILEY: Don't tell us what you said.

MS. BELL: Okay.

MR. BAILEY: Can you identify the news program and why called that program?

MS. BELL: It was channel 9 and I called because I saw him.

MR. BAILEY: Now, Miss Bell, when you say you saw him on the channel, do you mean on the witness stand in court or being interviewed outside of court?

MS. BELL: On the witness stand, but I'm not certain if there is--if he was saying anything. I think that the news broadcaster was speaking over the film of him.

MR. BAILEY: And what did you understand his role was, if any, in the case at that point?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, irrelevant.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. BAILEY: What caused you to call the news media? Why did you think that was important, channel 9?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: Irrelevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BELL: I just really didn't know what to do and I thought that someone should know that it was--something is wrong with this person and something was said, and I was vacuuming kind of and cleaning at the time, and I didn't hear exactly what was said, but something about a racial issue, so I thought that people should know that this person has a problem.

MR. BAILEY: Without going into what was said, did you contact anyone at channel 9?

MS. BELL: Only this young man who answered the phone.

MR. BAILEY: Did you have a conversation with him?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Did you ever have any further contact with anyone at channel 9?

MS. BELL: A reporter later on.

MR. BAILEY: A when did that occur?

MS. BELL: Much later on. Umm, I was walking out from my office where I work and he kind of tracked me down in his news van.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Now, at some point did you write a letter to Mr. Cochran?

MS. BELL: Yes, I did.

MR. BAILEY: And do you know whether or not that letter has been displayed to this jury earlier in the case?

MS. BELL: It has been displayed?

MR. BAILEY: I'm simply asking you if you know that is true or don't?

MS. BELL: You know, I'm not really sure. I don't think so.

MR. BAILEY: Have you seen the letter recently?

MS. BELL: I just saw it this morning.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Why did you write Mr. Cochran a letter?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, irrelevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BELL: Well, I thought that--I didn't want someone to be tried without all the information and I thought that there might be some reason that they need to know that Mark Fuhrman said these things to me.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Without saying what was said, were you acting on the advice of anyone or on your own initiative when you wrote the letter?

MS. BELL: No, on my own initiative.

MR. BAILEY: This letter was written at about what date, as you best recall?

MS. BELL: July 18, I believe or July 19.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Was this after the preliminary hearing was over, to your knowledge?

MS. BELL: I don't know. I hadn't been watching the case. I would listen to it on the radio on my way home, but I really wasn't watching it very much.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. As a result of that letter did somebody contact you?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Can you give us the name of the person that contacted you?

MS. BELL: Mr. Douglas.

MR. BAILEY: Carl Douglas?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: All right. And without going into what was said, did you have some conversation with him?

MS. BELL: Yes, I did.

MR. BAILEY: Did you thereafter talk with anyone else affiliated with the Defense of this case?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. And can you name that person?

MS. BELL: Umm, okay. I spoke with a Pat McKenna, but before that I spoke with a man--umm, excuse me, I don't remember his name.

MR. BAILEY: Could it have been Pavelic?

MS. BELL: Yes, Mr. Pavelic.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Did you speak at length with either of these two Defense investigators?

MS. BELL: Umm, not--Mr. Pavelic I spoke to quite a bit.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Did you tell him essentially what was in the contents of your letter?

MS. BELL: Yes, I did.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Now, will you tell us who this gentleman is right here, (Indicating)?

MS. BELL: That is my family's attorney and my attorney.

MR. BAILEY: He has represented the family for some years now?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, irrelevant, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. And just for the record, counsel, do you want to identify him, counsel.

MR. BAILEY: I'm sorry. He was identified out of the presence of the jury. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Mr. Taylor Daigneault who practices in Redondo Beach.

THE COURT: Thank you, counsel.

MR. BAILEY: At some point did you contact Mr. Daigneault, without going into anything that was said?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Can you relate to us a time when that occurred with respect to Mark Fuhrman?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, this is irrelevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BELL: With respect to seeing him on television?

MR. BAILEY: With respect to your whole involvement in letting the Defense know what he had done years before, when did you seek the advice of Mr. Daigneault on this point?

MS. BELL: Yes, umm--

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. BAILEY: Sorry.

MS. BELL: Probably--gosh, let's see. I don't know when the reporters started finding me, but this is--after the channel 9 reporter found me, that is when I--I contacted him and I don't know what that time frame was. Probably a month later or three weeks later.

MR. BAILEY: All right. All right. All right. Now, at any time did you contact anyone affiliated with law enforcement with this information, or attempt to contact?

MS. BELL: After the--you mean since I saw him?

MR. BAILEY: Yes.

MS. BELL: I sent my same letter. I faxed my same letter to the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office.

MR. BAILEY: Did you get a response from anyone in the L.A. District Attorney's office after you faxed a copy of the letter to Mr. Cochran?

MS. BELL: No, I did not.

MR. BAILEY: Have you ever talked to anyone from that office?

MS. BELL: No, I haven't.

MR. BAILEY: Have you ever talked to myself prior to this morning?

MS. BELL: No, I have not.

MR. BAILEY: Or any other lawyer at the Defense table or affiliated with the Defense, to your knowledge, other than the one call from Mr. Douglas?

MS. BELL: No.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Have you been interviewed by either side, that is to say, lawyers for either side?

MS. BELL: No.

MR. BAILEY: Have you ever heard from anyone connected with law enforcement since you sent that letter out?

MS. BELL: No.

MR. BAILEY: Now, did you follow the proceedings in this case at all, this trial?

MS. BELL: Since I saw Mark Fuhrman I did. I was a little bit more interested, so I started following it.

MR. BAILEY: And do you recall a time when he testified when your name was brought into the trial?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Do you recall things that were said about you by the Prosecution at that time?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, this is irrelevant.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. BAILEY: For the record, your Honor, exhibit 102 has been previously shown to the jury in an enlarged form during Mr. Fuhrman's testimony and I would like to bring it up begin now.

MR. BAILEY: And Miss Bell, it will appear on a little television set down to your right and also up on that big screen, but I think you will be able to read it better.

MS. BELL: Okay.

MR. BAILEY: Now, I would like to go through it with you and ask you whether or not you recollect this as being a letter that you originated. First, did you have any help in drafting this letter?

MS. BELL: No, I did not.

MR. BAILEY: All right. How did you know that Mr. Cochran would be a good person to write to in connection with the information that you had?

MS. BELL: I called the information operator and I tried to get Mr. Shapiro's phone number, and he just kind of laughed and said, well, you can't get that phone number.

MR. BAILEY: The operator said you can't get Shapiro's phone number?

MS. BELL: Right.

MR. BAILEY: I see. So what did you do next?

MS. BELL: On that same news broadcast they had mentioned an attorney named Johnnie Cochran and I didn't know even if he was in California or not, so I just thought I would try, and I did get that phone number and he had an answering service and I asked for the fax number.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Did you get it?

MS. BELL: Yes, I did.

MR. BAILEY: And when you composed this letter can you tell us mechanically how you did it? Was it handwritten, typed or computer?

MS. BELL: No, I just went on a computer.

MR. BAILEY: Did you type it yourself?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: And print it out?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Now, would you look at the first paragraph down to your right.

MS. BELL: (Witness complies.)

MR. BAILEY: You mention that you were writing in regards to a story you saw on the news last night and you previously told us that you think this letter was sent out on July 18th when you got Mr. Cochran's fax number; is that right?

MS. BELL: I think I actually wrote the letter on July 18th or 19th and then I ended up staying up so late that it ended up being the 20th that I actually faxed it.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Well, can you help us with what date is meant by "Last night" in the first paragraph or first sentence of that letter?

MS. BELL: I have this at home, I'm sorry. I believe it was the 19th that I started writing it and I saw the news broadcast the 19th, and the 20th is when I actually sent it.

MR. BAILEY: Do you have any recollection, Miss Bell, as to what news program you were watching that you are referring to in that first sentence?

MS. BELL: Channel 9 news.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Is that a station that you generally watch?

MS. BELL: I was--yes, I guess, sure.

MR. BAILEY: The next says: "I thought it ridiculous that the same Defense team would even suggest that there might be racial motivation involved in the trial against Mr. Simpson." Now, without going into the text of what you had heard before, had you heard such a claim advanced by somebody?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Objection. Irrelevant, hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BAILEY: The next sentence you say: "I then glanced up at the television and was quite shocked to see that Officer Fuhrman was a man that I had the misfortune of meeting." When you glanced up at television, as you describe in that sentence, did you recognize Mr. Fuhrman immediately?

MS. BELL: Immediately.

MR. BAILEY: Had anyone in your entire life on a first greeting ever treated you the way that you were treated by him in that Marine recruiting station?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, irrelevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BELL: Never.

MR. BAILEY: All right. You say: "You may have received a message from your answering service last night that I called to say that Mr. Fuhrman may be more of a racist that you can even imagine." Had you left a message on an answering service the night before that you believed to be that of Mr. Cochran?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: And did the answering message contain generally the information that is in that sentence? Did it use the word "Racist"?

MS. BELL: I don't know if I said anything--actually I do know that I said something. I don't know exactly what it was.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. In other words, you are not sure that you told the answering machine what is in that letter about Mr. Fuhrman, simply that you called to make contact; is that right?

MS. BELL: It was an answering service.

MR. BAILEY: Service?

MS. BELL: Right. I spoke to the woman.

MR. BAILEY: The one that gave you the fax number. You don't recall if you told the woman the text of your--

MS. BELL: Right.

MR. BAILEY: You said: "Between 1985 and 1986 I worked as a real estate agent." Do you mean by that during `85 and `86?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: And was the company out of business at the time you wrote this letter, as you have said?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. And you have told us, I believe, that your office century 21 was in fact located above the Marine recruiting center off of the Pacific Coast Highway. That's correct?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: And you would stop on occasion to say hello to the two Marines who work there, you have identified as Mr. Foss and Mr. Roar, right?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: By the way, were they generally in uniform when you saw them?

MS. BELL: They were always in uniform except for once or twice I saw Joe Foss, we went jogging.

MR. BAILEY: " saw Mr. Fuhrman there a couple of times because I remember him distinctly because of his height and build." Now, is that the height and build you told us you noted because you were concerned with fixing up your friend Andrea Terry with someone of equal or greater stature?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Next page, please.

MR. BAILEY: When you saw Mr. Fuhrman at the recruiting station on the first two occasions, was he wearing any of the accoutrements of a policeman, like a weapon or that sort of thing that you saw?

MS. BELL: I didn't notice anything.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. You say that: "While speaking to the men, I learned that Mr. Fuhrman was a police officer in Westwood and I don't know if he was telling the truth but he said that he had been in a special division of Marines."

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: I would like to stop there for a moment and see if we can sort this out. You saw Mr. Fuhrman through the window, tapped on the window and walked on on the first occasion?

MS. BELL: Uh-huh.

MR. BAILEY: You noted that he was tall and a good looking man. You then spoke with the Marines, when Mr. Fuhrman was not present, about the propriety of introducing yourself?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: And subsequently you did introduce yourself to be greeted by his views that you have described; is that correct?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: All right. What I want to know is whether or not the information about his having been in a special division of the Marines came from the two Marines or one of them or came from Fuhrman himself?

MS. BELL: I believe it came from one of the Marines.

MR. BAILEY: All right. In other words, they related this to you before you ever talked to him?

MS. BELL: I believe so.

MR. BAILEY: Your best recollection?

MS. BELL: After the first time that I met him--that I saw him, I spoke to them and at that time we talked about it a little bit.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Did you inquire of them as to any other information relating to Mr. Fuhrman, his marital status, what he did, et cetera?

MS. BELL: Not his marital status. I--I just said that I was uncomfortable walking in while he was there and they said that he was a former Marine.

MR. DARDEN: Objection. This is hearsay, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BELL: That he was a former Marine that just liked to come and shoot the breeze so it was fine that I could walk in.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. BAILEY: All right. At that point you say: "I don't know how the subject was raised but Officer Fuhrman said that when he sees an `n,' as he called it, driving with a white woman, he would pull them over." Now, there is no mention of Marcus Allen here. Do you now remember that his name was mentioned before this response?

MS. BELL: Yes, I do.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

MS. BELL: And I also, excuse me, remember that he didn't say the "N" word--

MR. DARDEN: Objection, nonresponsive.

MS. BELL: --at first.

THE COURT: Hold on. Next question.

MR. BAILEY: You say: "I asked if he didn't have a reason and he said that he would find one."

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Did you mean by that a reason to pull them over?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. BAILEY: A moment ago you wanted to explain something to us that you had just recalled. Would you tell was that was?

MS. BELL: When--in this letter--I wrote this in a very big hurry and I didn't think that there would be such a need to recall exactly what had happened in detail, so there was a mistake there and the first--he did not say the "N" word when he said "If I saw a black man with a white woman driving in a car he would pull them over." He definitely said "A black man."

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Did he use that word later when he talked about burning everybody?

MS. BELL: Yes, he did.

MR. BAILEY: Did he use "Black" or the word beginning with "N"?

MS. BELL: The "N" word.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Now, there is no mention in this paragraph about the query supposing they were in love?

MS. BELL: Right.

MR. BAILEY: You left that out of your letter?

MS. BELL: Right.

MR. BAILEY: Have you gone over this encounter in your mind since the time you wrote this letter?

MS. BELL: Many, many times.

MR. BAILEY: Have you discussed it, without saying what was said, with a number of people?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Do you have, as you sit there today, a clear recollection of the words uttered by Mark Fuhrman as you have described them in your testimony?

MS. BELL: Yes, I do.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. All right. If we can pull up the next paragraph, Mr. Douglas. If would you just read that first sentence and ask you whether or not you distinctly recall him using those words?

MS. BELL: "Officer Fuhrman went on to say that he would like nothing more than to see all niggers gathered together and killed. He said something about the burning"--excuse me--"About burning them or bombing them. I was too shaken to remember the exact words he used; however, I do not remember that what he"--wait. I'm sorry. "I do remember that what he said was probably the most horrible thing I had ever heard someone say. What frightened me even more was that he was a police officer."

MR. BAILEY: Now, Miss Bell, is all of that true, everything that you wrote there?

MS. BELL: I know now that he said "Gather together and burned."

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Next paragraph, please, Mr. Douglas. All right. You have said in your letter that you are almost sure you called the LAPD. What is your present recollection as to whether you did?

MS. BELL: I am positive I did.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. And in the last full paragraph of information you say that now that you know that Mr. Fuhrman was the investigating officer. Are you relating that to the Simpson investigation?

MS. BELL: Yes, I am.

MR. BAILEY: And that information came to you because you saw him on television?

MS. BELL: Right.

MR. BAILEY: You said: "I'm certainly not a fan of Mr. Simpson, but I would hate to see anyone harm by Officer Fuhrman's extreme hatred." Now, were you writing this letter or bringing this information forward in an effort to help O.J. Simpson in any way?

MS. BELL: No, I was not.

MR. BAILEY: All right. And did you invite the recipient, Mr. Cochran, to contact you for further information as it says there?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. BAILEY: In one more effort to try and pin down the time frame, is it true that you began to work for Mr. Maher in the fall of `85, early fall, Septemberish?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: How long did this job last?

MS. BELL: I think it was October, I'm sorry. I think it was October.

MR. BAILEY: October of `85?

MS. BELL: Right.

MR. BAILEY: When did you last work for him?

MS. BELL: Probably October of `86.

MR. BAILEY: So if there were a spring or summer series of encounters--

MS. BELL: Uh-huh.

MR. BAILEY: --it would have to be in 1986; is that correct?

MS. BELL: I think it would be `86, yes.

MR. BAILEY: Didn't work there in the spring of `85 or `87?

MS. BELL: Right.

MR. BAILEY: Now, with respect to time when you faxed the letter to Mr. Cochran's office, how soon thereafter did you fax the same letter to the District Attorney?

MS. BELL: I think the next day.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN

MR. DARDEN: Miss Bell, did you fax the same letter to Chief Willie Williams?

MS. BELL: No, I did not.

MR. BAILEY: I'm sorry, I didn't hear Mr. Darden.

THE COURT: Did she fax the letter to Chief Willie Williams.

MR. DARDEN: I take it that you understand it that this word, this epithet is the most vile word in the English language?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: You would agree with that, wouldn't you?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And when you heard Detective Fuhrman use this word, you were offended?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: You were hurt by it?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you were frightened of him because of his use of this word?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: You were horrified I think you testified earlier?

MS. BELL: Excuse me, not just because of the use of the word, but because what he said--

MR. DARDEN: And you felt--

MS. BELL: --along with it.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry, did you finish?

MS. BELL: Along with it.

MR. DARDEN: And you felt the fact that this encounter ought to be made known to the Defense attorneys and also to the D.A.'s office; is that right?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: When you heard Detective Fuhrman use these words you cried or did you cry?

MS. BELL: Somewhat.

MR. DARDEN: Somewhat?

MS. BELL: Yes. I was teary-eyed. He could see that I was upset.

MR. DARDEN: And you immediately left the recruiting office?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Despite the horror and the trauma Detective Fuhrman's use of this word caused, isn't it true that you still introduced Andrea Terry to Mark Fuhrman?

MS. BELL: I did not.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Is she in the building today?

MS. BELL: I heard that she was.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Do you expect that she is going to be testifying later.

MR. BAILEY: I object. That is not for this witness.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: Detective Fuhrman did use this word, didn't he?

MS. BELL: Yes, he did.

MR. DARDEN: Now, when you and Andrea Terry saw Detective Fuhrman in Hennessey's bar, did you say to Andrea Terry that Detective Fuhrman would be a good person for her to date?

MS. BELL: No. I believe I spoke with Andrea about that after the first time I saw him at the Marine recruiting center, before Hennessey's and before the second time I saw him at the Marine recruiting center.

MR. DARDEN: And did you introduce Andrea Terry to Detective Fuhrman?

MS. BELL: No, I did not.

MR. DARDEN: And did you sit at a table with Andrea Terry and Detective Fuhrman and the other woman you described?

MS. BELL: I would never do that.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry?

MS. BELL: No, no, I did not.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, you didn't want to come here and testify; is that right?

MS. BELL: No.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Did you want to testify?

MS. BELL: I did not want to testify.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't want to help the Defendant in this case?

MS. BELL: No, I did not.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And that is because you think he--

MR. BAILEY: May we approach?

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: May we approach, your Honor?

THE COURT: No. Counsel, I understand Mr. Bailey is handling this witness.

MR. COCHRAN: Yes, he is, your Honor.

THE COURT: And he is able to do that admirably. Sustained. Move on.

MR. DARDEN: I want to make sure that you have given us a full account as best you can as to what happened between you and Detective Fuhrman then. Have you?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And everything you have said this morning before this jury is true?

MS. BELL: Yes, it is.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, I believe you told Mr. Bailey that you haven't--strike that. Did you tell Mr. Bailey that you haven't used the "N" word yourself before?

MR. BAILEY: I object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BELL: I have never used that to describe another person. I have used it several times--many, many times lately in referring to Mark Fuhrman's conversation.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Well, other than your references to Mark Fuhrman's conversations, have you ever used that word yourself?

MS. BELL: I have never used that word to describe someone, no.

MR. DARDEN: Not once in your whole life?

MS. BELL: Not once in my whole life.

MR. DARDEN: Not one time in the last ten years, that is, other than in reference to Detective Fuhrman's conversations?

MR. BAILEY: Object and ask for an offer of proof.

THE COURT: Sustained. It is irrelevant. It is a collateral issue.

MR. DARDEN: You testified also that no one from the D.A.'s office interviewed you; is that right?

MS. BELL: This is true.

MR. DARDEN: But there were attempts by members of the D.A.'s office to interview you; is that right?

MS. BELL: I--there was--my attorney was arranging something, but he wanted a court reporter to be there.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

MS. BELL: That is all I remember.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. In any event, the D.A.'s office did attempt to interview you; is that right?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Thank you very much.

THE COURT: Mr. Bailey.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BAILEY

MR. BAILEY: Miss Bell, what was the information you were trying to give us about the condition that your attorney imposed on an interview relating to a court reporter? What did he ask you, if you know?

MR. DARDEN: Hearsay, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.

MR. BAILEY: Was there a request that a court reporter be present if you were interviewed by the Prosecution?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled. The answer will stand.

MR. BAILEY: You have to--

MS. BELL: Yes, yes.

MR. BAILEY: The answer was yes, there was?

MS. BELL: Yes, sir.

MR. BAILEY: You learned of that through Mr. Daigneault?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: All right. And what was the response, as you understand it, from the District Attorney's office that a court reporter be present to take down what was said?

MR. DARDEN: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

MR. BAILEY: Did the interview ever take place?

MS. BELL: No, it did not.

MR. BAILEY: Have you always been willing to submit to an interview, provided a court reporter could be present to take down what was said?

MS. BELL: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Thank you.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN

MR. DARDEN: You did give interviews to Larry King and Dateline NBC; is that correct?

MS. BELL: Yes, I did.

MR. DARDEN: There was no court reporter there?

MS. BELL: But the proof was there.

MR. DARDEN: Are you aware that we in the D.A.'s office tape-record almost every interview we do?

MR. BAILEY: Objection, irrelevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BELL: I wasn't aware of that, no.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Are you aware that the D.A.'s office offered to provide a stenographer during any interview that you might have had with us?

MR. DAIGNEAULT: I'm sorry, your Honor. I didn't hear the question.

THE COURT: Why don't you keep your voice up, Mr. Darden.

MR. BAILEY: Ask for an offer of proof, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: Are you aware that the D.A.'s office offered to provide a stenographer to be present during any conversation that you might have had with us?

MS. BELL: I am not aware of that, no.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You never had a conversation with Miss Lewis?

MS. BELL: No, I did not.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. But your lawyer did?

MS. BELL: Oh, yes, he did.

MR. DARDEN: Thank you very much.

MR. BAILEY: Thank you very much, Miss Bell.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Bell, thank you very much. You are excused.

MS. BELL: Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Next witness.

MR. BAILEY: They have asked for a 402.

THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, as far as the jury is concerned, we are going to take our recess just a little bit early. Please remember all my admonitions to you. And we will probably call you back in about twenty minutes. All right.

(The jury was excused and the following proceedings were held in open court out of their presence:)

MR. BAILEY: May Miss Singer be brought in, your Honor?

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Bailey, are you going to be handling the next witness?

MR. BAILEY: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. What is your offer of proof as to Miss Singer?

MR. BAILEY: I will repeat my offer of proof as of Friday, your Honor. Miss Singer, who had for nine days been the roommate of a woman named Karel Hannak, wound up in a local hospital with a condition that required emergency treatment. While there Miss Hannak encountered two policemen named Vettraino and Fuhrman and Miss Hannak began to date Officer Vettraino who the evidence will show was Fuhrman's partner. Miss Singer went home, she did not spend overnight in the hospital, and a few weeks later was present in the living room of the two-bedroom apartment where she was at that time sleeping because there were four girls in the two-bedroom apartment, and Mr. Fuhrman entered with Mr. Vettraino who was courting Miss Hannak.

THE COURT: Do we have a time frame for this? Refresh my recollection.

MR. BAILEY: Yes, your Honor. She was in the hospital September 24, 1987, and within about three weeks thereafter, she has no means of ascertaining the exact date, these two men came into the apartment, Vettraino, to visit Miss Hannak, Fuhrman tagging along. During that conversation Officer Fuhrman gratuitously offered the fact upon been asking what he did that he and Vettraino were assigned to gangs and that as part of his business he would take "N" word people into and alley and he would hit them with a stick or baton, she is not sure which word he used, and then he would kick them until he could see them twitch and that relieved his tensions, and he smiled as he said it. The evidence will be that he came, when she was at home, she knows he came a number of times when she wasn't at home, but when she was at home, three or four more times. And when Officer Fuhrman came in she would leave the room so as not to be present when language of the kind she had heard on her very first encounter was uttered. After about the fourth occasion, and probably late in 1987, she was in the bathroom looking out the window of this second floor apartment when she saw a car pull up and Officer Vettraino pull up or get out of the car with Officer Fuhrman. They started up the walkway. And she said out the window, "Hello, Tom," and she saw Fuhrman with an angry face say something to Vettraino. The part she could hear was, "That fucking bitch." At which point she said, "That man is not coming in this house any more. Tom, you can come in if you like." Mr. Vettraino then came in and left she believes with Miss Hannak. She never saw Mr. Fuhrman in her apartment again. That is what she will testify to.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Darden.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Well, the court has already ruled that these comments as they relate to excessive force are highly inflammatory and prejudicial. I am not interested in hiding the ball. If the court feels that use--that Detective Fuhrman's use of the "N" word is somehow relevant but in the context--the context provided to us today finally by Mr.--

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: --by Mr. Bailey, your Honor--

MR. BAILEY: He forgot the name.

MR. DARDEN: When they throw those epithets around, Judge, I just go blank. But given the context in which the word was used in this case, I think it is highly inflammatory and prejudicial. If they want to call Miss Singer in to say that he uttered the epithet in a derogatory manner, in a disparaging manner--

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: --in 1987 or three weeks after September 17, 1987, I will not object at this point; however these are horrible, horrible things that Miss Singer will testify were said by Mr. Fuhrman and I think it takes it to another level, a higher level of emotionalism, and I think the court should exercise its discretion under 352 and limit--

THE COURT: Mr. Bailey.

MR. DARDEN: --this testimony. In addition, I would say this: If Miss McKinny is also going to testify to 42 or 41 uses of the word, I think we are at the point where this is cumulative.

THE COURT: Mr. Bailey.

MR. BAILEY: If it please the court, when the Prosecution thought it could get away with trashing Miss Bell and calling her a liar, as they did in this court, they thought it a smart tactic to introduce into evidence 102 in which genocide is mentioned, a somewhat more inflammatory event than merely beating someone up until he twitched but presumably leaving him alive. Suddenly they have a queasy stomach because the tables have turned and they are in no position to start calling these people liars because the consequences are fairly obvious. The tapes are corroborative and could then be admitted. I do not believe the fact that their strategy has backfired, the fact that an officer they have long known, according to Commander Ball of the police department, since 1978 was a big problem because of his attitude, was put on this witness stand and vouched for is any basis for them to come whining in here with estoppel. Mr. Fuhrman chose those words. He chose on this location, as he did before, to visit them on a total stranger on a first encounter. It says a great deal about who he is and how much he is to be trusted. And to withhold this information from the jury because they can't live with it I think is pushing the envelope a long way up. They thought the jury could hear about burn or bomb them all. Now they think kicking is too bad because they realize that Fuhrman is lying in his teeth and these people are telling the truth and they are stuck with it. That wasn't a legal argument he gave, that is tucking your tail between your legs and trying to get out of it and as the court you ought not to permit it.

MR. DARDEN: You know, I'm going to save the heated remarks that I have for Mr. Bailey for another day and another time when it is just Mr. Bailey and I when we can talk this over. You know, we have a right under the law to ask the court to exercise its discretion under 352, and by the way, Mr. Bailey, we didn't call Kathleen Bell a liar, and the letter was introduced because his Honor--

THE COURT: Excuse me. Why don't you address your remarks to me, please, please, please.

MR. DARDEN: The letter was introduced because his Honor ruled the letter relevant. We take the evidence as it comes. We deal with it. Okay? We are not running with our tails tucked between our legs, Mr. Bailey. And I would ask the court--I would say to the court, so that Mr. Bailey can hear and understand, but I live with this everyday, Mr. Bailey. I understand what the word means. I can't run away from it and I certainly can't run away from it in this courtroom when it is thrown about in the careless manner that it is by Mr. Bailey. In any event, 352 is in the evidence code for a reason and it has been there many years. This is not the trial of People versus Fuhrman, not yet, and when it is the time for Mr. Fuhrman's Prosecution, if there is one, then they can deal with that issue, but this is the case of People versus Simpson. And I would ask the court to limit Miss Singer's testimony.

MR. BAILEY: Your Honor, it is the case of a leading witness for the Prosecution, a badge carrying detective who provided probable cause for a search and found evidence which purports to point to this Defendant, very severely lying to the court and lying to the jury. And I think within limits, and certainly there is a point at which you might find it cumulative--unless they are willing to step up to the bar and say, ladies and gentlemen, we made a mistake, this guy is a perjurer and we are stuck with it and we admit it. Until that happens I think we are entitled to provide, at least in two or three different sources from people who don't know each other, from people who made their statements before these tapes ever emerged, and they knew they would be corroborated by people who have been publicly called liars by this Prosecution team in this court in argument, I think the jury is entitled to have a sampling of the consistency of this man's conduct.

MR. DARDEN: You know what they say, Judge, "Yet he without sin cast the first stone," and I don't think anybody here is going to be throwing the first stone. It is highly inflammatory and prejudicial, Judge.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, counsel. I will allow the testimony of Miss Singer as it relates to 1987, the acquaintanceship with Detective or Officer Vettraino. You can lay the foundation that that officer was Mr. Fuhrman's partner at the time, the fact that he was working gangs with Mr. Vettraino and that he used the "N" word in a vile and disparaging manner as to African Americans. I am going to limit and not receive the testimony regarding beating of suspects. There is no allegation that that occurred in this case. It is not relevant to this case. I find it highly inflammatory. And I will exercise my discretion to keep that out.

MR. BAILEY: May we introduce the fact that his derogatory reference to people of the ilk of the "N" word relieved his tensions?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: All right. May I have a moment to acquaint the witness with the limitations of your Honor's ruling?

THE COURT: Absolutely.

MR. BAILEY: And with respect to the encounter where he is entering the house and calls her an epithet, may she testify to that?

MS. CLARK: No objection.

THE COURT: I think it is her and his reaction to each other based upon these discussions, so I would say yes.

MR. BAILEY: You would say--

MR. COCHRAN: Yes.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Thank you. May I have just a moment?

THE COURT: It places their relationship in context.

MR. BAILEY: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. We will take 15.

(Recess.)

THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. All parties are again present. All right. Deputy Magnera, let's have the jurors, please.

MR. BAILEY: Your Honor, before you do?

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

MR. BAILEY: There is one thing, and the fault is mine, that I omitted from the offer of proof at least today, I think I may have mentioned it last week, and that is later on the day of the first conversation with the remarks about beating and so forth that you have excluded were used, Detective Fuhrman or Officer Fuhrman at that time made the observation that the only dead--only good "N" person is a dead "N" person and I would propose to have her testify to that. I don't think that comes anywhere close to bomb and burn them all, as the Prosecution put before the jury, and I think it is an indication of his overall attitude toward the case.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

MS. CLARK: Your Honor--I'm going to handle this witness, I'm sorry.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: Your Honor, I recall very distinctly counsel's offer of proof when he last made it, as well as today, and he has never mentioned before, and it is very apparent that what has happened is since the court has excluded the reference to the beatings they have come up with another phrase that will be inflammatory along these lines. The court has ruled that the reference to the use of the word, that all that can be used. That is a great deal that counsel has been given. And to now heap more on because the court has ruled that other references could not come in, is unfair and I think highly suspect and I would urge the court not to allow these belated observations of Miss Singer.

MR. BAILEY: If it please the court, Miss Clark's perennially professionally insulting conduct adds nothing to this trial. This woman told me--

THE COURT: Excuse me. Counsel, counsel, counsel, counsel, please, if you are going to complain about somebody else's conduct, I suggest you not engage in that yourself. I will hear your argument.

MR. BAILEY: My argument is that we have just been charged with concocting a fabrication in response to the court's limiting ruling. I personally interviewed this witness in Nashville on May 2nd, 1995, and was told about the remarks I have just recited at that time. This witness was interviewed in Mr. Cochran's office by a number of lawyers and we were told about the remark. I simply omitted it because I was focusing on the beating aspect of it and the fault is mine, but to suggest that lawyers are making up evidence to frustrate your ruling requires something more than a nasty attitude. I think you ought to require an offer of proof before you tolerate conduct of that sort in this trial any further.

MS. CLARK: Your Honor, I have an offer of proof.

THE COURT: Wait, wait. What is your offer of proof, Miss Clark?

MS. CLARK: I would like to show counsel the fact--no, it is very easy. There is no discovery. We have no statement, we have nothing ever given to us by counsel that would indicate what Miss Singer said. There has been no offer of proof to date given to this court in which that phrase was represented as part of the offer. Today for the very first time, after the court's ruling, counsel comes up with it and now asserts to the court that that was something that had been said before. Now, if counsel had made an effort to comply with discovery, had made a good faith to give us a prior statement issued by Miss Singer, and I do not fault Miss Singer for this, I do fault counsel, however, then he would stand in a better posture before this court. But to come before this court now and represent, having given us no discovery, no statement from Miss Singer at all, that she said this all along, and yet he forgot to say it until this very moment, is something that should be considered by the court. If nothing else, counsel obviously didn't think it all that important if he did not include it any prior offer, which he did not; if did he not seek to tell us about it at any prior occasion, which he did not; if he included it in no discovery of any notes made by any investigator, which he did not. And if that is contained in notes somewhere, then we were entitled to discovery and we didn't get it under the discovery rules and laws under 1054, et seq. And I would urge the court to suppress it on those grounds as well.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Bailey.

MS. CLARK: And let me also indicate to the court that it's another highly inflammatory statement that adds nothing to the evidence of racial bias other than to seek to inflame the passions of the jury again improperly.

THE COURT: I am concerned about any investigator's reports, any notations as to interviews of Miss Singer that haven't been turned over.

MR. BAILEY: Your Honor, investigator's notes have been turned over. No report has been written. No one was present with me when I talked with the witness.

THE COURT: Counsel, all I asked for was investigators notes.

MR. BAILEY: Pardon me?

THE COURT: Have they been turned over?

MR. BAILEY: They have been turned over. Furthermore, if I may--

MR. COCHRAN: Lee, Lee.

THE COURT: I have heard all I need to hear.

MS. CLARK: The statement does not appear in any notes, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. The objection is overruled. All right. Let's have the jury, please.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran, who is after Miss Singer?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, the lawyers are out now interviewing. We have three or four witnesses and can I--may I tell you that in a moment?

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: Mr. Douglas, Mr. Shapiro have been doing that. I can let the court know that very shortly.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. All right. Mr. Bailey, you may call the next witness.

MR. BAILEY: Miss Natalie Singer, please.

Natalie Singer, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

MS. SINGER: I do.

THE CLERK: Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

MS. SINGER: Natalie, N-A-T-A-L-I-E, Singer, S-I-N-G-E-R.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Singer, why don't you just sit back and pull the microphone close to you.

MS. SINGER: (Witness complies.) Mr. Bailey.

MR. BAILEY: If you will, Miss Singer, keep your voice up so that we can all hear.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BAILEY

MR. BAILEY: Where do you presently reside, without giving us a street address?

MS. SINGER: Water?

MR. BAILEY: Yes. May we have a glass of water?

THE COURT: It is coming. We are way ahead of you. Proceed.

MS. SINGER: Nervous.

MR. BAILEY: Yes, your Honor. I think she would like a sip.

MS. SINGER: I'm nervous.

THE COURT: Mr. Bailey.

MS. SINGER: Sorry.

MR. BAILEY: In what area do you presently reside?

MS. SINGER: Nashville, Tennessee.

MR. BAILEY: All right. On September 24, 1987, where did you reside?

MS. SINGER: Umm, in Beverly Hills adjacent area in Los Angeles.

MR. BAILEY: In an apartment?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Did you have roommates?

MS. SINGER: Yes, I had three.

MR. BAILEY: Now, how long had you been in Los Angeles as of September 24, 1987?

MS. SINGER: Nine days.

MR. BAILEY: And how long had you known the roommates with whom you were residing on that date?

MS. SINGER: Well, two of them I had known for years, six or seven years. There was--because it was a two-bedroom apartment, there was a spare bedroom and they rented that out to another girl whom I didn't know until I arrived and met her.

MR. BAILEY: What was her name?

MS. SINGER: Karel Hannak.

MR. BAILEY: Can you spell that?

MS. SINGER: K-A-R-E-L H-A-N-N-A-K.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. What kind of business were you in at the time you moved to Los Angeles?

MS. SINGER: Well, I had been previously working in and around the film industry. I had been personal assistant to Christopher Reeve for a few years.

MR. BAILEY: Is that the same Christopher Reeve that was just injured in a horse riding accident?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Continue.

MS. SINGER: I had done script analysis and I was doing research on a book. It is project to project work. I don't have--

MR. BAILEY: Had you worked for any producers of television shows?

MS. SINGER: I--well, this was in New York. When I came out here I was supposed to work at Tri-Star Pictures hopefully as a script analysis and then the writer's strike happened like five seconds after I stepped off the plane so that job went out the window. And so eventually it was a bit of time because I found a good agency and I worked in different places in the film industry and settled on Aaron Spelling, the Aaron Spelling Company, with Doug Cramer who is a producer there, for about two and a half years, even though that was a temp job, but I stayed on for that long.

MR. BAILEY: Are you still in the same line of work, entertainment, so to speak?

MS. SINGER: Umm, well, I'm currently in pre-production as the creative director and producer of a series of women's titles for CD ROM, series of CD ROM titles.

MR. BAILEY: All right.

MS. SINGER: My partner is presently finishing another title so I'm just doing the story boarding.

MR. BAILEY: Let me draw your attention to September 24, 1987, nine days after you had moved to Los Angeles, and ask you if something extraordinary happened to you personally that day that you remember?

MS. SINGER: Is the kidney stone extraordinary?

MR. BAILEY: Yes.

MS. SINGER: Yeah. Well, I woke up--the night before I was having pains in my lower back and that morning, which is very unusual, usually there is at least one or two roommates home, no one was home. And I don't know if you have ever had a kidney stone, but it is like having birth, giving birth, and so I was rushed to the hospital. And they kept me in the emergency room in the hospital on intravenous Demerol for a while and they were hoping it would pass and that is what happened. I was in the hospital for hours.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Did the kidney stone pass sometime during the day of your admission?

MS. SINGER: During the evening it finally did.

MR. BAILEY: Was it necessary that you be kept overnight?

MS. SINGER: No.

MR. BAILEY: All right.

MS. SINGER: No.

MR. BAILEY: Was one of your roommates present in the hospital while you were admitted there for treatment?

MS. SINGER: Actually more than one.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

MS. SINGER: Karel, who I had only known several days, but she is--you know, is very sweet of her, she came to the hospital and sat in the emergency room with another one of my roommates that found out I was over there. She stayed the whole time. And then the third roommate, well, she popped in just to see if I was okay and then left, so they--Karel and the other roommate stayed almost the entire time when Karel got off work.

MR. BAILEY: During the day was Karel in the emergency room, to your knowledge, Karel Hannak?

MS. SINGER: Well, I was being kept in the emergency room and the waiting room where people sat to wait for news about people in emergency was very close, because as high I was from the Demerol, I could hear their bracelets. I could hear their bracelets the whole time clanging together, so yes, Karel was there.

MR. BAILEY: Did you see any police officers that day?

MS. SINGER: I didn't. I wasn't seeing anything except--

MR. BAILEY: Without going into anything that she said, did you learn anything from Miss Hannak later with reference to police officers?

MS. SINGER: Well, I actually learned when I started to come out from under the Demerol, my other roommate came in and--well--

MR. BAILEY: Don't tell us what anybody said.

MS. SINGER: It is just personal--I don't have to go into that, but anyway, she mentioned--oh, I can't say what she said.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

MS. SINGER: I became aware that Karel had met two police officers that had come in for other business in the hospital at that point.

MR. BAILEY: Did you go home that night?

MS. SINGER: Yes, I did.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

MS. SINGER: At approximately between 8:00 and 8:30.

MR. BAILEY: Did you subsequently meet two policemen in your home that were referred to as people that were in the hospital the day you were?

MS. SINGER: That's right, yes.

MR. BAILEY: Can you tell us about how long it was after your encounter in the hospital before these policemen came to your home?

MS. SINGER: This is an approximate, but I would say about three to four weeks.

MR. BAILEY: And can you tell me--

MS. SINGER: I had been hearing about them, but I hadn't yet met them.

MR. BAILEY: All right. Did you know the names of these people by that time?

MS. SINGER: Umm, I knew especially Tom who is mark--it was Mark Fuhrman and Tom, whose name I still keep forgetting, so but it is Tom Catraino or Catrelno.

MR. BAILEY: Vettraino or Vetreano or something of that nature?

MS. SINGER: Yeah, because Karel and he were getting into this, you know, oh, he is cute, and you know, were getting to know one another, so I was hearing a lot about that, and they--then I met them when they came up.

MR. BAILEY: Without getting too personal, can you tell us basically within this two-bedroom apartment who slept where?

MS. SINGER: (No audible response.)

MR. BAILEY: How were the rooms allocated?

MS. SINGER: Well, the two roommates whose names I haven't mentioned that I knew in New York shared a room and Karel and I shared a room.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. But prior to the time you moved into Karel's room?

MS. SINGER: Well, I was actually in the living room to start with, but because everybody was--in the morning they would have to pass me to come out of the bedrooms to go into the kitchen and it became a little annoying, so everyone kind of got together and said do you think we could stick her in the other bedroom, so I shared the other bedroom with Karel.

MR. BAILEY: Did that sharing begin before or after the first visit by the police officers?

MS. SINGER: Well, when I got out of the hospital I was still in the living room because I was--I would--they gave me so much Demerol I was withdrawing--I am not used to drugs, so I know I was still in there and I think a couple of days--it was definitely before I met them.

MR. BAILEY: That you moved out of the living room?

MS. SINGER: Absolutely.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Tell me the circumstances, as best you can remember them, of your first or personal encounter with Mark Fuhrman.

MS. SINGER: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the very first two words of your question.

MR. BAILEY: Tell me the circumstances within your apartment surrounding your first encounter with Mark Fuhrman and his partner Tom?

MS. SINGER: Okay, okay. You walk in the front door and there is--there is two couches in the living room. There is a living room area. There is one couch facing that wall and there is one couch facing that wall. Karel was excited. This was going to be the first time, you know, they are coming over, and I want you to meet them, and you know, all that stuff, and they stopped by while they were on duty, because there is no other reason for a man to pick up a date with another guy, you know. They would just drop by.

MR. BAILEY: But did they say they were on duty or this is a conclusion?

MS. SINGER: No, they were on duty. Well, I mean, I--being that they had all that paraphernalia dangling off of them.

MS. CLARK: Objection, speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained. Next question.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Without reference as to whether they were on duty or off duty, what time of day, if you can remember did, they arrive?

MS. SINGER: The first time it was dark, definitely dark.

MR. BAILEY: In the evening?

MS. SINGER: And I want to say I do--

THE COURT: No, no.

MS. SINGER: I don't want to say anything?

THE COURT: No, you don't want to say anything except in response to a question. Mr. Bailey.

MR. BAILEY: Just try to answer the questions as tightly as you can. At some point during that evening were you sitting in proximity to Karel Hannak, Tom Veterano or Vettraino and Mark Fuhrman?

MS. SINGER: Yes, yes, yes.

MR. BAILEY: How close was the group?

MS. SINGER: Okay. Tom and Karel were sitting on this couch, (Indicating). Mark Fuhrman sat here, (Indicating). I sat here, (Indicating). I--okay, that is it. That is all I want to say. Okay.

MR. BAILEY: At some point was inquiry made by someone as to what these two officers did?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Their work? And what was the response to the type of work that they did?

MS. SINGER: Fuhrman said "We work with gangs."

MR. BAILEY: All right.

MS. SINGER: Gang unit.

MR. BAILEY: Being very careful with your answer. Did he, in describing the gangs that he worked with, describe any particular race?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Did he use an epithet well-known to the world that denotes black people and begins with "N"?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: What was your reaction to his use of that word on your first encounter?

MS. SINGER: (No audible response.)

MR. BAILEY: How did you feel?

MS. SINGER: Well, in the context that it was in, that that word was used in, I was shocked, stunned. I never met anyone that talks that way.

MR. BAILEY: All right.

MS. SINGER: You know, so--

MR. BAILEY: Without going into the exact language, is it fair to say that the description of the way "N" people were treated was abusive?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BAILEY: Is it fair to say that the description of the way the "N" people were treated, according to Fuhrman, was abusive?

MS. SINGER: Absolutely.

MR. BAILEY: Do you recall his saying anything at the end of that description about his reaction to that kind of treatment?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: What did he say?

MS. SINGER: He said--after he did what he said he did, he--he said, "Oh, it really relieves your tension" and then this--just this is nauseating--"It hits you here" kind of laughing looking at Tom. They were--do I stop now?

MR. BAILEY: You can stop there. Later in the conversation did he make another reference to "N" people?

MS. SINGER: Yes, he did.

MR. BAILEY: Can you tell us what he said?

MS. SINGER: (No audible response.)

MR. BAILEY: You may use the "N" word, if you wish.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

THE COURT: Do you remember the question?

MR. BAILEY: Let me rephrase it if I may, your Honor. Did he make a reference to the African American race using a word we have discussed that begins with "N"?

MS. SINGER: And you are not referring to the first reference?

MR. BAILEY: No, no.

MS. SINGER: You are referring to that second kind of saying.

MR. BAILEY: Later in the conversation?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: What did he say?

MS. SINGER: It is okay to say that?

MR. BAILEY: Yes.

MS. SINGER: He said, "The only good Nigger is a dead Nigger."

MR. BAILEY: Now, did he visit thereafter when you were in the apartment with--I assume Officer--

MS. SINGER: Yes, they stopped by whenever and I--and they were on duty at times. I know that. I can't be specific which time, was it the first time, was it the second time, but I do know that they were on duty.

MS. CLARK: Objection, speculation, no foundation.

THE COURT: Sustained. Next question.

MR. BAILEY: Did you remain in the room on the subsequent visits where Mark Fuhrman was present?

MS. SINGER: No.

MR. BAILEY: Did you engage in any further conversation with him?

MS. SINGER: No. Well, in the--

MR. BAILEY: In the room?

MS. SINGER: No.

MR. BAILEY: When he visited?

MS. SINGER: No.

MR. BAILEY: Did there come a time when you were--by the way, this apartment is on what floor of the building?

MS. SINGER: Two, second.

MR. BAILEY: Did there come a time sometime later that year when you were in the bathroom of that apartment and heard something out the window?

MS. SINGER: Well, yes.

MR. BAILEY: How many times, to your knowledge, your personal knowledge, had Mr. Fuhrman been in the apartment between the first encounter about three weeks after your trip to the hospital and this final encounter?

MS. SINGER: (No audible response.)

MR. BAILEY: Best estimate?

MS. SINGER: The one where I have seen him where I knew for a fact he was there?

MR. BAILEY: Yes.

MS. SINGER: Approximately four--three to four times.

MR. BAILEY: All right. On each of those occasions did you stay out of the room where he was?

MS. SINGER: I made myself as scarce as possible, yes.

MR. BAILEY: Why did you not go in the room when Mark Fuhrman was there?

MS. SINGER: Because I was caught between a rock and a hard place. The first time he opened his mouth and said these things I wanted him out. I--in hindsight I realized I was a coward not to do it then and that I had the situation where here is a woman that is dating his partner, that is going to mess that up, you've got four girls together. It is political--is it okay to just throw this guy out? I was the new girl at the place, and--but it was--it was a topic of conversation around the house. Everyone knew that I was displeased with his presence.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Now, on the occasion that we just mentioned where you heard something through the bathroom window--

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: --did you thereafter look out the window?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: What did you see?

MS. SINGER: Well, I saw the two of them just coming out. I heard them coming out of their cars just chatting. I heard them.

MR. BAILEY: Did they have a vehicle?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: How far from the window looking down would you say the vehicle was stopped when you saw them getting out?

MS. SINGER: Oh, God. Here is the window, they were--I'm not very good at footage and measurements so--

MR. BAILEY: Can you pick out something in the courtroom of the same approximate distance?

MS. SINGER: Right. Say I'm on the second floor, I'm looking out my window, this would be their car, say around where you are.

MR. BAILEY: Within twenty, thirty feet?

MS. SINGER: Yeah, close, you know, not three blocks away.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. As they emerged from the car did you say anything to either of them?

MS. SINGER: Well, I heard them chatting so I went to the bathroom window and I said, "Hey." I said, "Hi Tom."

MR. BAILEY: After you said, "Hi, Tom," did you hear Mark Fuhrman utter anything that caught your ear?

MS. SINGER: Immediately he started talking. He has got a pretty strong tone to his voice. He started saying something and it sounded angry and nasty. His normal tone of voice actually.

MS. CLARK: Objection, no foundation.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. BAILEY: Just tell us what he said.

MS. CLARK: Motion to strike.

THE COURT: Excuse me. That answer is stricken. The jury is to disregard. Next question.

MR. BAILEY: Just tell us what he said.

THE COURT: Just tell us what he said.

MS. SINGER: And then he called me a--am I allowed to curse?

THE COURT: Yes, you are.

MS. SINGER: He called me a fucking bitch.

MR. BAILEY: All right. What did you do after he called you a fucking bitch?

MS. SINGER: The thought went through my head "This is it."

MR. BAILEY: What did you say?

MS. SINGER: He is out. I went to the window. I said, "I do not"--I called him an asshole.

MR. BAILEY: An asshole?

MS. SINGER: I said, "I do not want you in this house any more, nobody does. Don't come up here. You are not welcome." And it was great, because it was a great opportunity to do that.

MR. BAILEY: What, if anything, did you say with respect to Mr. Vettraino's right to come up?

MS. SINGER: I said, "You are welcome to come up here."

MR. BAILEY: Did he come?

MS. SINGER: Yes, he came in.

MR. BAILEY: Did Officer Fuhrman come in?

MS. SINGER: Oh, no.

MR. BAILEY: Did you ever see Officer Fuhrman again where you had conversation with him?

MS. SINGER: Oh, no.

MR. BAILEY: Did you ever see him again period personally?

MS. SINGER: No, not until this past year.

MR. BAILEY: Did you see him?

MS. SINGER: On TV.

MR. BAILEY: Indirectly on television?

MS. SINGER: Yes, on television.

MR. BAILEY: Did you at some point become aware that he was involved in some fashion with the case against Mr. O.J. Simpson?

MS. SINGER: Could you repeat the start of that?

MR. BAILEY: Yes. Did you become aware, through the news or any other means, that Officer Fuhrman--

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: --was a figure in the Simpson case?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: How did you learn that?

MS. SINGER: The minute I saw him I--I knew that that was the same man.

MR. BAILEY: Recognized him?

MS. SINGER: I saw him on television.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Did you make an effort to contact anyone to give them the information that you have just given this jury?

MS. SINGER: Yes, I did.

MR. BAILEY: How did you go about doing that? Who did you call first?

MS. SINGER: The very first call was to Mr. Shapiro's office.

MR. BAILEY: Uh-huh.

MS. SINGER: And I'm not to this day sure that it was actually the right office or not.

MR. BAILEY: Uh-huh.

MS. SINGER: I left a message. Then I called Mr. Cochran's office and apparently they were flooded about calls about similar stuff.

MR. BAILEY: Uh-huh.

MS. SINGER: And they said, "We will get back to you." I wanted to just let them know that there is a problem with this person.

MR. BAILEY: Uh-huh.

MS. SINGER: And then I just let it go. I felt, look, you know, I don't want to spend all my time pursuing this. I just want to let them know what I know.

MR. BAILEY: All right.

THE COURT: Next question.

MS. SINGER: Next question.

MR. BAILEY: And did you call anyone thereafter at any time?

MS. SINGER: Yes, I did.

MR. BAILEY: Who?

MS. SINGER: When I saw that he was--

THE COURT: Excuse me. The question was who?

MR. BAILEY: Who did you call?

MS. SINGER: Dan Leonard at your office.

MR. BAILEY: The office in Boston?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Did you get the number through a listing?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Without going into what was said, did you have some conversation with Mr. Leonard about your recollections relating to Mark Fuhrman?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: And did you leave your name and number?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Were you thereafter contacted by someone who is directly affiliated with the Defense?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: And what was his name?

MS. SINGER: The next person that contacted me after Dan Leonard would be Pat McKenna.

MR. BAILEY: Pat McKenna?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: As a result of conversations that you had with Pat McKenna was an arrangement made for you and I to meet in May of 1995?

MS. SINGER: That's right.

MR. BAILEY: And did we have a meeting near your residence outside of Nashville?

MS. SINGER: That's right.

MR. BAILEY: May 2nd of this year?

MS. SINGER: May 2nd.

MR. BAILEY: Did we have some conversation about the case, without going into what was said?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: And did you relate to me at that time essentially what you have told the jury?

MS. SINGER: Essentially.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Have you talked with anyone directly connected with the Prosecution?

MS. SINGER: You know, I don't know if he is directly--

MR. BAILEY: Strike the question. Have you talked directly with anyone connected with Mark Fuhrman?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: What was his name?

MS. SINGER: Anthony Pellicano.

MR. BAILEY: And as a result of that did you issue any invitation to him to have the Prosecution call you?

MS. SINGER: I guess you could call it an invitation. I--

MR. BAILEY: Well, did you inquire as to whether he was a member of the Prosecution or acting for--

MS. SINGER: Well, he--

MS. CLARK: Objection, your Honor.

MR. BAILEY: Don't tell us what he said.

MS. SINGER: Okay. What was your question again then?

MR. BAILEY: Did you say anything to him that you expected might lead to a call from a member of the Prosecution?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Objection. That is irrelevant, calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BAILEY: Were you ever, prior to last Friday, requested to give an interview to anyone in connection to the Prosecution, to your knowledge?

MS. SINGER: No.

MR. BAILEY: Have you been represented by counsel in Nashville in connection with this matter?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: Is the lawyer who has represented you a well-known figure in the legal community?

MS. SINGER: I think so. I gather that from--

MS. CLARK: Objection, speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained. It is irrelevant.

MR. BAILEY: Did you give his name to Mr. Pellicano?

MS. SINGER: At that point, no. I didn't have him at that point.

MR. BAILEY: At some point did you give his name to Mr. Pellicano?

MS. SINGER: Yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, uh-huh.

MR. BAILEY: What name did you give Mr. Pellicano?

MS. SINGER: Jim Neal.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. And through Mr. Neal was it arranged that an attorney out in this area would advise you if that became necessary?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MR. BAILEY: And do you know--did you speak to that attorney after you arrived here last week?

MS. SINGER: Umm, I spoke to him once just to let him know I was here.

MR. BAILEY: Okay.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MS. SINGER: Actually I have spoken to him twice. Judge, I actually spoke to him twice. I forgot.

THE COURT: Hold on. Mr. Bailey, Miss Singer indicates she needs to clarify her last answer.

MR. BAILEY: I'm sorry.

MS. SINGER: I actually spoke to him twice since I have been here.

MR. BAILEY: Mr. Pellicano?

MS. SINGER: No, the lawyer out here. I said once, but I meant twice.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. BAILEY: Thank you, Miss Singer. No further questions. Your witness.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: Good morning, Miss Singer.

MS. SINGER: Good morning.

MS. CLARK: Did Mr. Bailey fly out to Nashville, Tennessee, to interview you?

MS. SINGER: Yes, he did.

MS. CLARK: That is--

THE COURT: Miss Clark, could you keep your voice up, please.

MS. CLARK: I'm sorry.

MS. CLARK: That is where you spoke to him?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Now, you have never spoken to myself or Mr. Darden or Miss Lewis?

MS. SINGER: No, I haven't.

MS. CLARK: You have never spoken to any of the Prosecutors in this case; is that correct?

MS. SINGER: No, I haven't. Yes, that's correct.

MS. CLARK: And you spoke to--did you ever call any member of the Prosecution team to advise them personally of who your lawyer was?

MS. SINGER: No.

MS. CLARK: You spoke to--you spoke to Mr. Bailey; is that correct, back in May of this year?

MS. SINGER: Are you referring to the meeting in Nashville?

MS. CLARK: Yes.

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And how many times have you spoken to Mr. Bailey?

MS. SINGER: You will have to give me a minute on that. It has to be an approximate and it would be approximately five.

MS. CLARK: Five times?

MS. SINGER: Right. And those are not in person all of them.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Some were on the phone?

MS. SINGER: (No audible response.)

MS. CLARK: Some were on the phone?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And of those five times how many times did you meet with him in Nashville?

MS. SINGER: Oh, one.

MS. CLARK: That is once?

MS. SINGER: Uh-huh.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Was that yes?

MS. SINGER: Yes, I'm sorry.

MS. CLARK: That is all right. And the other times you met with him, was that in Los Angeles, the times that they were in person?

MS. SINGER: Yes. Can I keep going?

MS. CLARK: No.

MS. SINGER: Two more times. Once last week, once today.

MS. CLARK: Okay. That was both in person here in Los Angeles?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And they flew you out here from Nashville?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: You are staying in a hotel?

MS. SINGER: No.

MS. CLARK: You are staying with someone?

MS. SINGER: I am staying with a friend.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Now, after the occasion in which you heard Mark Fuhrman use that epithet--I'm sorry--this is not a great day for me--

MS. SINGER: Yeah.

MS. CLARK: --speaking wise. Excuse me. After you heard Mark Fuhrman use the racial epithet on that occasion in your apartment, you indicated that you were very shocked and you were very offended, correct?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And it even made you feel nauseous, correct?

MS. SINGER: Yes, uh-huh.

MS. CLARK: And after that occasion he came to the apartment when you were there on three or four occasions you estimate, correct?

MS. SINGER: That I saw him, yes.

MS. CLARK: But you were aware that he came on other occasions to the apartment when you were not there, correct?

MS. SINGER: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And then on the last occasion that you saw him there, it was on that occasion that he said "Fucking bitch," correct? Did he do--

MS. SINGER: (No audible response.)

MS. CLARK: Was that yes?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Did he direct that to you or to his partner?

MS. SINGER: Oh, he was speaking to his partner, referring to me.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Okay. You felt he was referring to you when he said that?

MS. SINGER: Oh, he was.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

MS. SINGER: Yeah.

MS. CLARK: And that was based on what--was he looking at you when he said it or had he looked at you and then turned to his partner and said that?

MS. SINGER: Umm, it was based on the fact that I had just looked out the window and said, "Tom, hi Tom, hi you guys," got a look, then he started immediately talking. And the reason I'm not going into specifically what he was saying is because I don't remember specifically what he said previous to the curse, and then he called--she is just a blah, blah, blah.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh. Okay. You were the only woman in sight?

MS. SINGER: Yeah.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

MS. SINGER: I was.

MS. CLARK: All right. And then that made you angry?

MS. SINGER: No, it actually didn't.

MS. CLARK: You called him an asshole?

MS. SINGER: Yeah, I think--can I go on?

MS. CLARK: Did you call him an asshole?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: You did not mean it as a term of endearment I take it?

MS. SINGER: No, no. Normally I don't use that word as a term of endearment.

MS. CLARK: All right. Most of us don't. Okay. At that point you told him you are not welcome here; is that right?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: This was your opportunity at that point when he called you--

MS. SINGER: Uh-huh.

MS. CLARK: --when he called you that, this was your opportunity to make sure he couldn't come back; is that right?

MS. SINGER: Umm--

MS. CLARK: As you have testified on direct examination?

MS. SINGER: Yes, to make sure--yes, we didn't want him there and I certainly didn't want him there and that--yes, this was an opportunity to have him out.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Then this was the opportunity you chose to make sure he wouldn't come back?

MS. SINGER: Yes. Unfortunately it was the opportunity I finally chose instead of telling him the truth.

MS. CLARK: But that was the one you did choose, correct?

MS. SINGER: Uh-huh.

MS. CLARK: Yes?

MS. SINGER: Yes.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: Thank you, Miss Singer. Nothing further.

THE COURT: Mr. Bailey.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BAILEY

MR. BAILEY: Miss Singer, you have said that you did not make any direct effort to contact the Prosecution as you did to Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Cochran and my office?

MS. SINGER: Correct.

MR. BAILEY: Was there a reason that you chose not to volunteer your information to the Prosecution?

MS. CLARK: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. SINGER: Well, when Anthony Pellicano told me that he was going to tell them, I said I would be willing--

MS. CLARK: Objection, your Honor, hearsay. Motion to strike.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. SINGER: What was that?

THE COURT: Go ahead.

MR. BAILEY: You may answer.

MS. SINGER: I told him, "When they call I will speak to them," but I never got a call.

MR. BAILEY: Was there a reason that prior to talking to Mr. Pellicano and myself you had not given this information to the Prosecution?

MS. SINGER: Well, yeah.

MR. BAILEY: What was it?

MS. SINGER: Well, possibly incorrectly I had--not in a million years would I have thought they wanted to hear what I had to say, the things that I knew. I just thought it would fall on deaf ears, and that may be incorrect of me, but that is the way I felt.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Now, when you heard Mr. Fuhrman using racial epithets, was it the mere use of that word that upset you or the manner which--

MS. CLARK: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. CLARK: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. BAILEY: You may answer.

MS. SINGER: I go?

THE COURT: Was it the use or manner that offended you so much?

MS. SINGER: The manner more than the use. The use is bad, the manner is what got me.

MR. BAILEY: All right. And what, if any, expression can you recall being on his face as he described his treatment of black people?

THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the question. We are going beyond here.

MS. CLARK: Objection, your Honor.

MR. BAILEY: All right.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. BAILEY: Can you tell us, Miss Singer, what you mean when you say "The manner in which it was used," without going into any text?

MS. CLARK: Your Honor, same objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. SINGER