Preliminary Hearing - July 8, 1994

 04                                        )
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06                 VS.                    )   VOLUME 12
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 13                   FRIDAY, JULY 8, 1994
 16                              WILLIAM HODGMAN
 17                              DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
 19                              GERALD UELMEN
 20                              PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
 26                              ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 27                              ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
 27                              OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
 01                        I N D E X
 01                                                     VOIR
 03 GREG MATHESON            3     23     36       38    12
 04                         18
 06 IRWIN L. GOLDEN         41
 09                          -O0O-
 11                         EXHIBITS
 14 24 - CHART                                5
 15 25 - DIAGRAM                             55
 16 26 - DIAGRAM                             69
 17 27 - DIAGRAM                             75
 18 28 - DIAGRAM                             82
 19 29 - DIAGRAM                             86
 20 30 - DIAGRAM                             87
 21 31 - DIAGRAM                             92
 22 32 - PHOTO                               95
 23 33 - PHOTO                               95
 01                 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
 02                   FRIDAY, JULY 8, 1994
 03                        9:05 A.M.
 04                          -O0O-
 06      THE COURT:  Good morning.
 07      MR. UELMEN:  Good morning, Your Honor.
 08      MR. HODGMAN:  Good morning, Your Honor.
 09      MS. CLARK:  Good morning, Your Honor.
 10      MR. SHAPIRO:  Good morning.
 11      THE COURT:  We're once again on the record in the
 12 matter of People versus Simpson.
 13           The defendant is present with counsel.
 14 The people are represented.
 15           Mr. Matheson, if you will re-take the stand.
 16 I remind you, you remain under oath.
 18                      GREG MATHESON,
 19 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
 20 having been previously called and duly sworn, was
 21 examined and testified further as follows:
 22      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark.
 23      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 28      Q    Good morning, Mr. Matheson.
 01      A    Good morning.
 02      Q    I think where we left off yesterday, I think
 03 you indicated you tested item number 49, which was the
 04 blood drop from the trail left at 875 south Bundy, shown
 05 in the close-up in photograph 'E', and shown in
 06 perspective in photograph 'D.'
 07           Do you recall saying that?
 08      A    That's correct.
 09      Q    And you tested that initially to determine if
 10 it was of human origin?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    And with respect to the blood samples that
 13 were retrieved from the defendant and from Ronald
 14 Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson, with respect to those
 15 samples, did you test them also?
 16      A    Yes, I did.
 17      Q    What test did you perform on those?
 18      A    On those I performed the ABO blood typing
 19 test, the group 1 enzyme electrophoresis test and the
 20 PGM sub-type electrophoresis test.
 21      Q    And did you also subject the blood drop from
 22 the trail, item number 49, to those same tests?
 23      A    Yes, I did.
 24      Q    Did you prepare a chart, sir, indicating what
 25 you found?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, I have a chart that I have
 28 previously shown to the defense.
 01           Ask that it be marked as People's 24.
 02      THE COURT:  All right.
 04      Q    Showing you People's 24, sir, do you recognize
 05 what I'm showing you?
 06      A    Yes, I do.
 07      Q    What does that chart show us?
 08      A    Well, it's just a summary of the results of
 09 the analytical tests that were performed on those items.
 10      Q    With respect to the ABO typing performed on
 11 each of the blood samples, with respect to the blood
 12 from Nicole Simpson Brown, item number 59, the ABO
 13 typing result was?
 14      A    That I determined that she was a type A.
 15      Q    And as to Ronald Goldman in item number 60?
 16      A    In that case I determined that the results
 17 indicate that he's a type O.
 18      Q    And as to the defendant, item number 17?
 19      A    That he is a type A.
 20      Q    And as to item number 49, the blood drop?
 21      A    That the tests indicate that it is of a
 22 type A.
 23      Q    Now, what do you mean when you say
 24 "indicates"?
 25      A    Well, during the course of ABO typing, there's
 26 actually two different constituents that are present in
 27 the blood that can determine what the ABO type is.   One
 28 of them is called antigen and the other is called an
 01 antibody.
 02           If we only determine one of those two, we call
 03 it "indicative of."   If we're able to determine the
 04 presence of both the antigen and the antibody, and they
 05 confirm the type, then we just call it a type A or a
 06 type O or a type AB or type B, depending on whatever it
 07 turns out to be.
 08      Q    Does that mean when you say "indicative of O"
 09 that it might not be O?
 10      A    No.   It just means that I was only able to
 11 either -- either only one of the tests worked or I only
 12 ran one of the tests.   I just was not able to confirm
 13 the results of the other one.
 14      Q    Have you performed ABO testing before, sir?
 15      A    Yes, I have.
 16      Q    About how many times?
 17      A    Well, I didn't break  -- there's a variety of
 18 different types of ABO tests.  I didn't break it down to
 19 the individual ones.   But in my career so far, I've run
 20 ABO typing tests a little over 6500 times.
 21      Q    In those 6500 times, have you had the
 22 experience of doing the initial run for ABO typing and
 23 come up with an indication of a type as you've indicated
 24 here -- like indicative of A or indicative of O -- and
 25 then had an opportunity to run the second test on the
 26 antibodies to confirm that result later?
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    In any of those cases, did it turn out that
 01 the initial "indicative of" type -- whether it be O, A,
 02 or AB or B -- turned out to be wrong?
 03      A    I don't know if I would say turned out to be
 04 wrong.
 05           Occasionally there are discrepancies that
 06 occur between the two, and we come up with what's called
 07 an inconclusive result.
 08           Normally you can through further testing try
 09 and decide or determine whether it may not have come out
 10 as clearly as you expected, but occasionally it does
 11 happen where your first indication or your first test is
 12 not how it's eventually reported.
 13      Q    And how often does that happen?
 14      A    I don't have a number.   It happens fairly
 15 rarely.
 16      Q    Now, in this case, after the ABO typing, did
 17 you perform further typing?
 18      A    Yes, I did.
 19      Q    And what was that?
 20      A    Well, there was additional tests run that I
 21 mentioned before.   The enzyme group 1 test, which
 22 includes actually three different enzymes in one
 23 process.   One of them is the ESD or esterase D that's
 24 indicated on the chart.   Another is PGM or
 25 phosphoglucomutase, and the third is GLO or
 26 GLYOXALASE.   Those all three are run in one process.
 27      Q    With respect to the Nicole Simpson Brown
 28 sample, item number 59, what was the ESD result?
 01      A    A type 1.
 02      Q    With respect to Ronald Goldman, item
 03 number 60, what was the result?
 04      A    Also a type 1.
 05      Q    And with respect to the defendant, item
 06 number 17?
 07      A    Also was determined to be a type 1.
 08      Q    And with respect to item number 49, the blood
 09 drop?
 10      A    That was also determined to be a type 1.
 11      Q    Thus far with respect to what -- the markers
 12 that you found in item number 49, would it be a fair
 13 statement that only Ronald Goldman's could be excluded
 14 from having been the source of that blood drop?
 15      A    If our only population are the three people
 16 that are being described here, yes.   He's the only one
 17 of those three that can currently be excluded as being
 18 the source of that blood drop.
 19      Q    Then you performed the PGM sub-type test?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    And the result with respect to Nicole Simpson
 22 Brown in item number 59?
 23      A    I determined that she was a PGM sub-type 1+.
 24      Q    And Ronald Goldman, item number 60?
 25      A    That he was a 2+1+.
 26      Q    And the defendant, item number 17?
 27      A    Was determined to be a 2+2-.
 28      Q    So each of the three parties there are a
 01 different PGM sub-type; is that correct?
 02      A    Yes, that's correct.
 03      Q    With respect to item number 49, the drop of
 04 blood on the trail at 875 south Bundy, what was the PGM
 05 sub-type?
 06      A    The PGM sub-type on that sample was determined
 07 to be a 2+2-.
 08      Q    Based on the three people that you see on that
 09 chart, could Nicole Simpson Brown have left the blood
 10 drop at 875 south Bundy marked item number 49?
 11      A    No.   With the inclusion of the PGM sub-type
 12 information, she's excluded as being a source of that
 13 sample.
 14      Q    With respect to Ronald Goldman, based on the
 15 PGM sub-type, could he have been a source of that blood
 16 drop on the trail known as item number 49 at 875 south
 17 Bundy?
 18      A    No, he could not.
 19      Q    With respect to the defendant, could he have
 20 been the source of the blood drop that was found on the
 21 trail at 875 south Bundy known as item number 49?
 22      A    Yes, he can be included in the group of
 23 possibles.
 24      Q    Now, did you make some effort to determine
 25 what the frequency or number of percentage of the
 26 population that could have left the blood sample that
 27 you typed out in item number 49 as indicative of A, ESD
 28 type 1, PGM sub-type 2+2-, what percentage of the
 01 population could have left that blood drop?
 02      A    Okay.   I determined that that combination of
 03 those three type genetic markers exists in
 04 approximately 0.43 percent of the general population.
 05      MR. UELMEN:  Your Honor, we'll object to the
 06 admission of this evidence for lack of foundation.
 07           If the prosecution is going to offer a
 08 computation based on the multiplication of the frequency
 09 of three different types or enzymes in the blood,
 10 they're going to have to show that these are independent
 11 random variables that can be multiplied, and there's
 12 been no foundation here of the independence of each of
 13 these calculations.
 14      THE COURT:  Well, there's been no foundation as to
 15 how this particular number has been arrived at, so maybe
 16 you ought to go into that.
 17      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor.   Thank you.
 19      Q    Tell us how you arrived at that frequency,
 20 sir.
 21      A    Within our laboratory, since actually the
 22 beginning of the serology unit, we have kept information
 23 on all the whole Bloods that have been run by that unit,
 24 all the genetic marker types that have been determined
 25 on all the victims, suspects, witnesses, whatever blood
 26 sample happened to come into the laboratory.
 27           And through doing that and identifying the
 28 different types, we have been able to establish
 01 percentages of the population that have a particular
 02 type.
 03           For example, in the ABO blood typing system,
 04 we've determined that approximately 33, 34 percent of
 05 the population is a type A, approximately 16 percent is
 06 a type B, approximately 4 percent is a type AB, and
 07 approximately 46 percent is a type O.
 08      Q    And how are those tables compiled, if you
 09 know?
 10      A    The tables or the information is just an
 11 ongoing process.   I, for the last, oh, approximately
 12 ten years or so, have on a annual or semiannual basis
 13 added up all the types that we've determined during
 14 that, you know, previous time period, added it to the
 15 quantity that we had before and performed the
 16 calculations.
 17      Q    And approximately how many times have you
 18 performed such calculations, sir?
 19      A    Like I said, I do it approximately annually,
 20 anywhere from 9 to 18 months, and I would say -- maybe 9
 21 or 10 times we've brought it up to date.
 22      Q    And on how many occasions have people in your
 23 lab testified to frequencies of types that are found in
 24 evidence stains and in various persons in courts of law?
 25      A    Oh, I'm not sure I can give a specific number
 26 on it.
 27           I know that I have testified personally in
 28 blood stain type cases approximately, you know, 115
 01 times.   Out of that, frequencies are brought up in at
 02 least half of those.
 03      Q    And in each case, was the frequency based on
 04 the tables you've mentioned using the multiplication
 05 system admitted in the court?
 06      A    Yes, it has.
 07      Q    Is the system of multiplying each of the
 08 factors to achieve a frequency, an overall frequency, a
 09 method that is accepted in the scientific community,
 10 sir?
 11      A    Yes, it is.
 12      Q    And then you reported that the frequency you
 13 found to be for the typing that you found in the blood
 14 drop on the trail at 875 south Bundy was .43 percent?
 15      A    Approximately that, yes.
 16      MR. UELMEN:  Your Honor, if we could voir dire the
 17 witness?
 18      THE COURT:  All right.
 20                  VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
 23      Q    Mr. Matheson, how many PGM sub-type tests has
 24 your laboratory performed?
 25      A    Well, I have specific figures on the number
 26 that I have run.   I determined that I've done
 27 approximately a thousand items by the PGM sub-type
 28 method.
 01           The only information I can supply you as far
 02 as overall laboratory is since we started computerizing
 03 our statistics, which was the first part of 1990, and
 04 since then the laboratory as a whole has done a little
 05 over 1800 items by that method.
 06      Q    Now, you indicated that you've done about 6500
 07 ABO typing tests?
 08      A    Yes, that's correct.
 09      Q    But you've done less than a thousand PGM
 10 sub-type tests?
 11      A    Slightly over a thousand, that's correct.
 12      Q    All right.
 13           So you do a PGM sub-type in about one out of
 14 six of the tests where you do an ABO type?
 15      A    That's approximately how the math works out,
 16 yes.
 17      Q    How do you select which cases you're going to
 18 do a PGM sub-type?
 19      A    Well, it depends an awful lot on how much
 20 sample there is to begin with.   One of the -- our
 21 protocol has tended to be to do the ABO first, and then
 22 go on to the electrophoresis system.
 23           I mentioned earlier this group 1 system, which
 24 includes PGM as one of the enzymes in it, that you
 25 normally try to run first and determine what the PGM
 26 type is.   Not the sub-type.
 27           And if you don't get a PGM type, then there's
 28 no reason to expend further sample running the sub-type
 01 system on it.   So many times we don't run it.
 02      Q    Well, would you say then that there's some
 03 sort of random selection of the PGM sub-types from the
 04 larger group of ABO types that you do?
 05      A    You mean as far as the ones that appear in our
 06 frequency charts or in the ones that are run?
 07      Q    What I'm saying is that the individual cases
 08 where you have determined to run a PGM sub-type are not
 09 a random sample of the ABO type tests that you've done.
 10      A    I'm not totally sure what you mean by
 11 random.   I do know that -- I mean, we follow certain
 12 criteria as to whether we run a particular test, and it
 13 depends on the quality of the sample.
 14           The data that appears in our frequency charts
 15 is based strictly on whole blood samples, not evidence
 16 stains, and we will not run a particular marker and
 17 whole blood sample if we don't have something to compare
 18 it to in the stain.
 19           So, you know, I'm not sure if that's random or
 20 not, but sometimes we run it and sometimes we don't.
 21      Q    And the frequency chart that you maintain for
 22 PGM sub-type, that's just based on the PGM sub-type
 23 tests that you have done in your laboratory?
 24      A    That's correct.
 25      Q    And you compute that by race of the subject
 26 that you're testing?
 27      A    No, the statistics that we keep in our
 28 laboratory, the general population statistics that I use
 01 to calculate this do not take race into account.
 02      Q    So you have no race specific frequency data
 03 for PGM sub-type?
 04      A    No, that's not true.   The chart that I used
 05 in this case and that we use regularly on all of our
 06 analyzed evidence reports does not break it down by
 07 race.
 08           However, we do maintain reference books in the
 09 laboratory that does if it's needed.
 10      Q    And these reference books would refer to
 11 frequency data collected in other laboratories?
 12      A    That's correct.
 13      Q    But you just used your own data?
 14      A    Yes.   We always do.
 15      Q    And your data is race specific for neither the
 16 ABO nor the PGM sub-type?
 17      A    No, we don't determine race on any of our
 18 specific -- on any of our frequency determinations that
 19 we have.   We don't feel it's our job to determine what
 20 race left the stain.   We just have a stain of an
 21 unknown origin.   So we choose to report a general
 22 population statistic.
 23      Q    But yet you're aware that there are dramatic
 24 differences in the frequency of blood type, for example,
 25 among Blacks or African Americans as compared to whites.
 26      A    Whether it's dramatic or not depends on the
 27 particular marker.
 28           I do have data here on the racial break down
 01 on the three genetic markers that I did run in this
 02 case, in case that information was needed.
 03      Q    Well, are you aware, for example, that other
 04 data suggests that type B is twice as frequent among the
 05 black population as it is among the white population?
 06      A    Oh, I don't know specifically what it is.
 07 I'd be happy to look it up and confirm it, but I'll
 08 accept the fact that there can be major differences,
 09 particularly in the ABO system.   In the PGM sub-type
 10 system, it doesn't vary quite as much as that.
 11      Q    You're not aware that there have been reports
 12 in PGM sub-types of ratios as great as three to one
 13 between races?
 14      A    Oh, it wouldn't surprise me that if in, you
 15 know, specific populations it can vary by that much.
 16 That's one reason why up to this point I've specifically
 17 mentioned that these frequency determinations were
 18 approximations.
 19      Q    And what you've done in order to come up with
 20 this .43 percent, or 1 in 200, is simply take your
 21 calculations of the frequency of each of the markers and
 22 then multiply them together to come up with 1 in 200?
 23      A    With the .43, that's correct.   And then I
 24 kind of rounded up for ease of understanding to
 25 approximately 1 in 200.
 26      Q    Well, what is the frequency of type A that you
 27 used to multiply?
 28      A    For the data that I have there, I used
 01 33.7 percent.
 02      Q    And for the PGM sub-type 2+2-?
 03      A    1.6 percent.
 04      Q    And you simply multiplied those together to
 05 get the .43 percent?
 06      A    Well, also included in there is the esterase D
 07 type 1, which I used 79.6 percent.
 08      Q    Now, you have made no effort to correlate the
 09 frequency of PGM sub-type with the frequency of a
 10 particular result in the ABO test, have you?
 11      A    Oh, you mean to see if there's any sort of
 12 correlation between the two?
 13      Q    Exactly.
 14      A    No, in our laboratory we have not done that.
 15 I have learned throughout my training and have been
 16 advised that they are independent.
 17      Q    Been advised by who?
 18      A    I don't have any specific name or reference.
 19 It's just been something that's been -- occurred during
 20 the course of the last -- last, oh, 12 years of my
 21 serology training.   It's my understanding that they are
 22 independent factors.
 23      Q    But none of the tenting that you have done or
 24 the accumulation of data that you have done attempts to
 25 correlate how frequently you would have a 2+2-, for
 26 example, in an A blood sample as compares to a B blood
 27 sample nor an O Blood sample nor an AB blood sample?
 28      A    No, within our laboratory we have never done
 01 those calculations.
 02      MR. ULEMEN:  Your Honor, we would renew our
 03 objection based on People versus Collins, that the
 04 multiplication of these factors is improper unless they
 05 can lay a foundation to show the independent appearance
 06 of each of these factors that they're multiplying.
 07      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark?
 08      MS. CLARK:  Yes, your honor.   Counsel is raising
 09 the possibility of linkage, and I think we may be --
 10 with maybe a little bit further questioning, I can
 11 establish that that is not an issue in these particular
 12 markers.   That's more an issue in other areas.
 13           If I may?
 14      THE COURT:  All right.
 15      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 20      Q    Are you familiar with the term, "linkage,"
 21 sir?
 22      A    Yes, I am.
 23      Q    Are you familiar with any studies that discuss
 24 the possibility of linkage in the systems that you have
 25 tested for the purposes of your testimony today?
 26      A    In this particular case, dealing with these
 27 factors that have been around for -- and used for many,
 28 many years, I right here cannot specifically come up
 01 with any studies.   It is just something that has
 02 existed for quite a while.
 03      Q    In the scientific community has there been any
 04 agreement concerning the existence or non-existence of
 05 linkage with respect to the ABO, ESD and PGM sub-type
 06 categories?
 07      A    My understanding is there's general agreement
 08 that there is no linkage between any of these factors.
 09      Q    So that as of this date the scientific
 10 community agrees that there is not the problem of
 11 linkage that might otherwise skew the frequencies that
 12 are reported in all these cases where these particular
 13 markers are tested and found in blood types and in blood
 14 stains for the purpose of determining frequency?
 15      A    That's correct.   These sort of determinations
 16 have been made and used in court for in excess of a
 17 decade.
 18      MS. CLARK:  Does the court wish me to further
 19 inquire?
 20      THE COURT:  No.
 21           The objection -- the defense objection at this
 22 time is overruled.
 23      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 25      Q    Now, you indicated, sir, that you do not --
 26 the table that you like to use does not consider -- does
 27 not break down by race.
 28      A    That's correct.
 01      Q    Is that a more conservative approach than
 02 focusing first on the race of the suspect and then
 03 extrapolating out from that to see what tables would be
 04 fit based on --
 05      MR. UELMEN:  Objection to the characterization of
 06 "conservative," your Honor.
 07      THE COURT:  Sustained as to what that means.  I think
 08 it is vague.
 09      ms. clark:  Okay.
 10      Q    Why don't you consider -- why don't you like
 11 to consider race when you determine the frequencies and
 12 choose your tables?
 13      A    There is actually a couple of reasons.  I believe
 14 I mentioned one earlier.
 15           In that as a criminalist, as a scientist, I
 16 receive a piece of evidence that is, say, in this
 17 particular case, a bloodstain left on -- at a crime scene,
 18 I have no knowledge of who potentially might have left that
 19 behind.  I don't want to assume that it is a caucasian or
 20 it is a black or hispanic or something along that line; So
 21 I prefer to use our general frequency considerations that
 22 we do because it gives kind of a middle number, where all
 23 the different races are considered within the population of
 24 the city of Los Angeles.
 25           Like I mentioned earlier, I do have statistics
 26 broken down as to how it might be given a caucasian, black,
 27 hispanic; but I don't prefer to use those just for the
 28 reasons that I mentioned.
 01           Also, I feel it is important for us to have our
 02 own data that we can support, where we know where the
 03 information came from; and it is not always possible for us
 04 to receive information as to the race of an individual
 05 whose blood we are typing.  And even if we did have a
 06 process of receiving it, there is some question as to the
 07 validity of how that is determined.  Does the person drawing
 08 the blood just look at them and make their own
 09 determination, or what?  So we Prefer to go with the
 10 general characteristics.
 11      Q    If, for example, you were to consider "well, the
 12 suspect is white; therefore, I am going to look at the
 13 types for white people" concerning the frequency of each
 14 marker that you are testing, does that basically begin by
 15 narrowing the focus, by making the assumption that your
 16 evidence stain will be from a white person?
 17      A    That is correct.
 18      Q    And in that regard, sir, might that distort the
 19 frequency to make it unfairly more incriminating than you
 20 otherwise might have if you did not make any assumptions
 21 about the possible source of a bloodstain?
 22      A    Well, depending on how it happens to work out
 23 for that race, it could be either more or less
 24 incriminating.
 25      Q    But either way, it might distort your result
 26 if you were to narrow the focus by making the assumption
 27 the person who left the stain is the same race as the
 28 suspect?
 01      A    That's correct.
 02      Q    And you did not do that in this case?
 03      A    Not for purposes of the report or the chart.
 04      Q    Now, I take it, sir, then, that you found, as you
 05 reported, that the types detected in the blood drop of item
 06 49, left on the trail at 875 south Bundy, occurs in 43
 07 percent of the population?
 08      A    Approximately 43.  That's correct.
 09      Q    And who among the three that you have listed
 10 in the chart marked People's 24 could possibly have been
 11 the source of that stain?
 12      A    Of the three people that are described both in my
 13 report and on the chart, only Mr. Simpson can be included
 14 in that percentage of the population that could have left
 15 that stain.
 16      Q    So Mr. Simpson alone is included in the 43
 17 percent of the population that could have left the blood
 18 drop on the trail at 875 south Bundy?
 19      A    Of the three people that are mentioned on the
 20 chart, that's correct.
 21      Q    Then by my math, if my math is any good, we
 22 may fairly say that 99.57 percent of the population is
 23 excluded as a possible source of the blood drop found on
 24 the trail at 875 south Bundy, marked as item No. 49?
 25      A    That's correct.
 26      ms. clark:  I have nothing further.
 27      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen.
 01                    CROSS-EXAMINATION
 03 BY mr. uelmen:
 04      Q    Mr. Matheson, the frequency tables that you rely
 05 on, you indicate, are based on the tests that are done in
 06 your own laboratory?
 07      A    That's correct.
 08      Q    And you accumulate this data over a long period
 09 of time?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    Now, as a police laboratory, the tests that you
 12 conduct ordinarily are on people who have been arrested as
 13 criminal suspects or the victims of criminal activity?
 14      A    That's true.
 15      Q    That's not a random sample that is representative
 16 of the population as a whole, is it?
 17      A    No, it is not.  It is, like you mentioned,
 18 victims and suspects in the city of Los Angeles.
 19      Q    And, in fact, ethnic or racial minorities would
 20 be substantially overrepresented in that group, wouldn't
 21 they?
 22      Ms. clark:  Objection.  Irrelevant.
 23      THE COURT:  Overruled.
 24      THE WITNESS:  Well, like I mentioned, we do not get
 25 racial information on most of the -- or all of the samples
 26 that we receive; but logic tells me, yes, that is probably
 27 the case.
 01 By mr. uelmen:
 02      Q    For example, would you dispute that the
 03 African-American population in California is about 7
 04 percent?
 05      A    That's approximately what I have heard.  I don't
 06 have any statistics with me.
 07      Q    Yet for arrest statistics and arrest data, they
 08 account for from 30 to 35 percent of arrests, don't they?
 09      A    Same thing.  I would have to accept your data
 10 on that, but I believe it is in that area.
 11      Q    all right.
 12           So minorities are much more likely to appear
 13 in the group of persons that you are testing for blood
 14 or bodily substances than they appear in the population
 15 as a whole?
 16      A    That's correct.
 17      Q    So the frequency data that you have come up
 18 with may not be replicated if we were looking at the
 19 frequency in the population as a whole?
 20      A    That's true.
 21      Q    Now, tell us a little bit about your
 22 laboratory.
 23           How many serologists do you have employed in your
 24 laboratory?
 25      A    Well, first off, all of our professional staff
 26 are criminalists.  They are not necessarily hired as
 27 serologists or toxicologists or narcotics chemists.
 28           Within the serology unit right now, I have six
 01 people working.
 02      Q    Now, do all six of these people work in the same
 03 laboratory?
 04      A    Same physical location, yes.
 05      Q    In one room?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    all right.
 08           And all of your tests are performed in that
 09 one room?
 10      A    Yes, that's correct.
 11      Q    Does your laboratory follow the f.b.i.
 12 guidelines with respect to controls for contamination?
 13      A    I would have to see exactly what they are.  We do
 14 have a number of controls regarding contamination in place.
 15      Q    Controls for contamination are pretty
 16 important in a laboratory doing the sensitive kind of
 17 testing that you do, are they not?
 18      A    Definitely.
 19      Q    And occasionally there have been problems in
 20 laboratories doing this sort of testing with respect to
 21 what are called blooms of contamination?
 22      A    I am not sure what you mean by "blooms of
 23 contamination."
 24      Q    That is not a term you have heard before?
 25      A    Not in relation to the type of testing I have
 26 performed here, no.
 27      Q    Have you heard that with respect to D.N.A.
 28 testing?
 01      Ms. clark:  Objection.  Irrelevant.
 02      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 04      Q    Well, you do D.N.A. testing in your
 05 laboratory, don't you?
 06      Ms. clark:  Objection.  Irrelevant.
 07      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 08      mr. uelmen:  Your Honor, we would offer to show the
 09 CONTAMINATION with respect to D.N.A. testing could
 10 affect the accuracy of results with respect to other
 11 forms of testing of blood and bodily substances as well.
 12      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen, there has been no evidence
 13 presented -- in fact, the prosecutor was specifically asked
 14 whether they were going to be presenting D.N.A. evidence in
 15 this proceeding; and the answer was "no."  And, therefore,
 16 I don't think that is relevant at this time.
 17      mr. uelmen:  I am not proposing to offer D.N.A.
 18 testing results.  What I am proposing to explore is
 19 whether there has been a problem of contamination in the
 20 laboratory in which Mr. Matheson is employed.
 21      ms. clark:  Your Honor, the witness has already
 22 indicated that the type of contamination Mr. Uelmen is
 23 referring to does not occur in the testing he has conducted
 24 in this case.
 25      THE COURT:  As your question relates to D.N.A.
 26 contamination, the objection is sustained.
 27 BY mr. uelmen:
 28      Q    Let me ask you, more broadly, have there been any
 01 problems of contamination in your laboratory.
 02      Ms. clark:  Objection.  Irrelevant.
 03      THE COURT:  Overruled.
 04      THE WITNESS:  To my knowledge, we have not had a
 05 problem with contamination within our laboratory.
 06 by mr. uelmen:
 07      Q    Have there been documented examples of
 08 contamination in your laboratory?
 09      A    Not to my knowledge.
 10      Q    And do you do a regular regimen of testing to
 11 see whether you have any problems of contamination in
 12 your laboratory?
 13      A    Well, every one of our tests has built-in
 14 controls that would indicate whether or not there is
 15 contamination or any other sort of quality control problem.
 16      Q    all right.
 17           Do you regularly do proficiency testing of
 18 your results?
 19      A    Yes, we do.
 20      Q    And do you have an error rate compiled for
 21 your laboratory?
 22      A    Of the proficiency tests, both external and
 23 internal, that we have performed, there have not been any
 24 errors.
 25      Q    What kind of external testing do you have of your
 26 proficiency?
 27      A    We subscribe to two different services.  The one
 28 that has been around the longest, that we have used the
 01 most, is a company called CTS, or corroborative testing
 02 service.
 03      Q    And do they use blind testing?
 04      A    No, they do not.
 05      Q    So you have never utilized any blind testing
 06 of your proficiency by external sources?
 07      A    Well, I think I need to clarify how you are
 08 using the term "blind."
 09           We receive the items.  We know that they are
 10 proficiency test samples.  We do not know the results prior
 11 to our completion of the test and submission to them, but
 12 we do know they are proficiency test samples.
 13      Q    So there is no routine process whereby you test
 14 samples without knowing that they are part of a proficiency
 15 test?
 16      A    That's correct.
 17      Q    Now, all of the tests that you have described
 18 today that you did on the three blood samples and the
 19 bloodstain are exclusionary tests; is that correct?
 20      A    If you mean by that -- yes.  We attempt to
 21 exclude somebody.
 22      Q    None of these tests can tell you specifically
 23 that a particular bloodstain was left by a particular
 24 person?
 25      A    That's correct.  There is nothing here that would
 26 individualize a stain to any one particular person.
 27      Q    So any attempt to analogize this to fingerprints
 28 or precise identification of a person would be inaccurate;
 01 is that correct?
 02      A    That's correct.
 03      Q    Now, the tests that you performed produce some
 04 sort of product, or result, that other people can look at
 05 and interpret besides yourself?
 06      A    In the case of the Electrophoresis test, yes.  We
 07 photograph the results.
 08      Q    You photograph the plate on which the test is
 09 performed?
 10      A    That's correct.
 11      Q    And did you do that in this case?
 12      A    Yes, we did.
 13      Q    all right.
 14           But there is nothing preserved with respect to
 15 the abo typing?
 16      A    No.
 17      Q    So no other person could interpret the results
 18 that you receive from that?
 19      A    Well, there is my raw data; in other words, the
 20 readings that I had as I was performing the test itself.
 21 Beyond that, no.  All that is left is some additional
 22 sample that could be tested by somebody else if need be.
 23      Q    OKAY.
 24           Now, normally the abo testing, for example, is
 25 going to be more accurate if you are testing whole blood
 26 samples, is it not?
 27      A    I don't know if it would be more accurate.
 28 Once we supply an answer, the answer, in my opinion, is
 01 accurate.
 02           The whole blood samples tend to be easier to
 03 analyze than a stain.
 04      Q    all right.
 05           And would that also be true with respect to
 06 the other tests that you performed here, the group 1 and
 07 the pgm subtype?
 08      A    No; not necessarily.  With those tests, we take
 09 them, basically, the same point where we are drawing down a
 10 part of the liquid sample to create a stain; and then we
 11 test the stain.
 12      Q    Is there any relationship between the age of a
 13 bloodstain and how successful these tests are?
 14      A    Yes, there is.
 15      Q    And what is that relationship?
 16      A    Well, as a stain gets older, the likelihood of
 17 getting conclusive results becomes less and less.  The
 18 factors we are looking at are biological in nature and,
 19 unless they are stored in the proper condition, will
 20 eventually rot and be untestable.
 21      Q    At what point, for example, would you be unable
 22 to successfully conduct a pgm subtype test?
 23      A    Like I said, it varies depending on the
 24 conditions.
 25           I have not been able to detect pgm on a stain
 26 that was picked up out at a scene as short as a week
 27 later.  In that particular case, the stain was subjected to
 28 direct sunlight on the pavement for in excess of 24 hours,
 01 I believe.
 02           I have also, on the converse side of that,
 03 successfully gotten pgm on stains that were, you know, six
 04 months old but had been collected fairly quickly and then
 05 stored frozen.
 06      Q    So the promptness with which the samples are
 07 collected and how they are stored can have a significant
 08 impact on these tests; is that correct?
 09      A    That's correct.
 10      Q    Now, you were not able to get conclusive results
 11 with respect to item 49 on all of the tests that you
 12 conducted, were you?
 13      A    That's correct.
 14      Q    all right.
 15           Could you explain which of the tests you
 16 conducted gave you an inconclusive result?
 17      A    I am going to refer to my report, a copy of my
 18 report.
 19           In relation to item No. 49, I got no activity for
 20 the glo test, or the glo enzyme.
 21      Q    all right.
 22           The glo was part of the group 1 test that you
 23 did?
 24      A    Yes, that's correct.
 25      Q    What would account for that, that you would not
 26 get any results on the glo on the group 1 test?
 27      A    The most likely answer is that some degradation
 28 of the sample had occurred.
 01           The glo, or glo enzyme, degrades very rapidly;
 02 and we probably get less, or fewer, conclusive results from
 03 that one enzyme than from any of the others.
 04      Q    Does the fact that you get inconclusive
 05 results on the group 1 test in any way raise doubts as to
 06 the results you get on the pgm subtype test?
 07      A    You mean as far as -- I am assuming at this
 08 point you would be talking about the pgm result that is
 09 derived during the course of the group 1 testing, and
 10 "inconclusive" merely means there is some question about that
 11 particular reading; and if it was a straight inconclusive,
 12 or no activity, then I would be concerned a little bit
 13 about the result that was obtained on the subtype test.  We
 14 like to have a confirmation.
 15           In this particular case, item No. 49 indicated
 16 a 2+2-.  I would expect the pgm to be a 2.  They
 17 correlate there.
 18      Q    Now, the pgm test is the same test that you rely
 19 on for the glo enzyme, isn't it?
 20      A    Well, it is All part of the same run on the same
 21 Electrophoresis plate.  It is not necessarily the same
 22 test.  It just so happens you can develop different
 23 portions of this same gel for different enzymes.
 24      Q    Now, you make one assumption in the test that you
 25 conduct on item 49; and that is that the substance you are
 26 testing emanated, or came, from one individual?
 27      A    I don't assume that while doing the test, no.
 28 I run my analysis.
 01           I do assume that when I am doing the frequency
 02 calculations, that's correct; But as far as the rest of the
 03 testing goes, it doesn't matter whether it is a mixture or
 04 not.
 05      Q    Are you saying you would get the same results
 06 you are reporting here even if the stain that was being
 07 tested was a mixture that came from two different
 08 individuals?
 09      A    Well, this particular stain gave the results
 10 that were obtained.  If there is more than one
 11 individual present in that, it would still give the
 12 exact same results because that's what was obtained on
 13 the sample.
 14           If you are saying that this sample was mixed
 15 with the blood of another individual that had different
 16 genetic marker types than are exhibited here, then the
 17 results would have reflected that.
 18      Q    Let me give you a hypothetical.
 19           Assume that we had an assailant with type o
 20 blood who was injured in the course of the commission of a
 21 crime and on that assailant's hands was blood of the
 22 victim, which is type a.
 23           If those two bloods were mixed and the drop that
 24 you are testing was some mixture of those two blood types,
 25 what result would you get from your abo test?
 26      A    As far as the example you gave, the results
 27 would be the same here.  It would be indicative of a
 28 type a.
 01      Q    all right.
 02           So you wouldn't know that there was a type o
 03 assailant because you are assuming that this all came from
 04 one person?
 05      A    Getting back to the other question, I am not
 06 assuming it did come from one person; however, the results
 07 that you obtain during the testing of a bloodstain in the
 08 abo blood typing system, if it is strictly from a type a
 09 person, you can have the presence of the a antigen or a
 10 combination of a and h, which ultimately indicate a type
 11 a.
 12           A type o has this h antigen in their system; so
 13 if you have a mixture of blood from an a person and o
 14 person, you would also see the a and h and, ultimatley, it
 15 would be indicative of a type a.
 16      Q    So you would get the same result?
 17      A    That's true.
 18      Q    So if the scenario I presented involved an
 19 assailant with type o blood and a 2+2- pgm mixed with
 20 the blood of a victim who had a type a blood and a 1+ pgm
 21 subtype, would you get the same result you have here?
 22      A    No.  Given the scenario you just described, in
 23 the pgm blood type system, I would expect to see a 1+2+2-.
 24      Q    Is there any quantitative variation in that
 25 mixture in which you would not see the 1+ pgm subtype?
 26      A    Sure.  At some point, if the mixture of blood
 27 that was the type a, pgm subtype 1+ got down low enough so
 28 that the 1+ was no longer detectable, then theoretically
 01 that can happen.
 02      Q    What kind of mixture would that be?  20 to 1?
 03      A    I have no idea.
 04      Q    No idea?
 05      A    No.
 06      Q    So if there were a possibility of mixture, that
 07 would substantially affect the calculation of frequency of
 08 occurrence that you have presented here today, wouldn't it?
 09      A    If we were -- if it was required to calculate
 10 a frequency, then we would also have to include in that
 11 frequency the population type o individuals.
 12      Q    all right.
 13           Well, what difference would that make if we
 14 included both o and a in the abo results and then
 15 multiplied it by the frequency you are using for pgm
 16 subtyping?
 17      A    If you give me a moment, I will calculate that
 18 for you.
 19      Q    Thank you.
 20      A    The way I figure it, rather than having a 43
 21 percent of the population, approximately, it would work out
 22 to approximately 1 percent.
 23      Q    all right.
 24           So instead of 1 in 200, it would be 1 in 100?
 25      A    That's correct.
 26      Q    Now, when you talk about that kind of
 27 frequency in a population the size of Los Angeles, for
 28 example, where we have 8 million people, you are saying
 01 that there are something on the order of 40,000 to
 02 80,000 other people whose blood would produce the
 03 identical genetic markers that you have identified in
 04 item 49; is that correct?
 05      A    Approximately.  That's correct, yes.
 06      mr. uelmen:  Thank you.
 07           Nothing further.
 08      THE COURT:  Miss Clark.
 09      ms. clark:  Yes.
 11                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 13 BY ms. clark:
 14      Q    Mr. Matheson, is there anything in the stain
 15 marked item 49 that indicates to you it is, indeed, a
 16 mixture of blood from two people?
 17      A    Well, I would not necessarily know that.  Like
 18 I mentioned earlier, the results would be the same; but
 19 there is nothing specific to indicate it is a mixture or
 20 it is not a mixture.
 21      Q    If indeed item No. 49 came from two individuals,
 22 then they would both have to have a pgm subtype of 2+2-
 23 somewhere in there?
 24      A    You would have to have at least one of the
 25 factors.
 26           If it is approximately an equal mix, like I
 27 mentioned earlier, in the example, if it was a different
 28 subtype, I would expect to see that other type show up.
 01           So if we did, in fact, have a mixture, the
 02 additional blood would have to be either a 2+2- or a 2+
 03 or a 2-.
 04      Q    And, in fact, at least neither of the two victims
 05 have that?
 06      A    That's correct.
 07      Q    And then that other person would also have to
 08 be a type 1 for esd?
 09      A    That's correct.
 10      Q    And an o or an a as to the abo system?
 11      A    Yes, that's correct.
 12      Q    Are you familiar with the term known as
 13 "titering"?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    Would you be able to, in fact, titer the stain
 16 known as item No. 49 with respect to esd or pgm subtype to
 17 determine the quantities with respect to being able to
 18 either rule out or limit the possibility of it being the
 19 blood of two different people?
 20      A    I don't believe that would be appropriate testing
 21 to determine something like that.  I am not sure you could
 22 determine something like that.
 23      Q    Is there any test you are aware of that could
 24 eliminate completely the possibility of that being two
 25 people?
 26      A    Not to my knowledge, no.
 27      Q    But there was no independent evidence that you
 28 were able to find that determined that, in fact, that was
 01 indeed the blood of two people?
 02      A    That's correct.
 03      ms. clark:  Thank you.
 04      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen, anything further?
 05      mr. uelmen:  Yeah.  Thank you.
 07                    RECROSS-EXAMINATION
 09 BY mr. uelmen:
 10      Q    Mr. Matheson, if we had a mixture that included
 11 pgm subtype 2+2- plus some other subtype, at some point,
 12 in terms of the ratio of the mixture, the other subtype
 13 would be masked and would not appear in your results; isn't
 14 that correct?
 15      A    this is similar to what we were talking about
 16 for -- if there was a completely foreign type besides 2+
 17 or 2-?
 18      Q    Right.
 19      A    If you got to the point other blood was
 20 diluted to the point it didn't show up, you would still
 21 see it.
 22      Q    But you would still see the a result on the abo
 23 test?
 24      A    I suppose at some point it is possible where you
 25 would still see the a and not the subtype.
 26      mr. uelmen:  Thank you.
 27           Nothing further.
 28           Excuse me.  One moment.
 01      Q    Do you make some sort of calculation as to how
 02 much of the sample you are consuming in the course of the
 03 tests that you are running?
 04      A    Are you asking me can I tell you how much I
 05 used?
 06      Q    YES.
 07      A    Yes, I can.
 08           Referring to my analysis notes, I consumed a
 09 portion of one of the swatches that was available to me
 10 that was approximately 6 millimeters by 3.  Approximation.
 11 That left two swatches plus a portion of that one remaining
 12 that I worked on.
 13      Q    So each of these tests that you perform
 14 consumes a certain proportion of the sample that you
 15 have available to test?
 16      A    Yes, that's correct.
 17      Q    OKAY.
 18      mr. uelmen:  I'm sorry, your Honor.  One other
 19 question.
 20      THE COURT:  All right.
 21 BY mr. uelmen:
 22      Q    With respect to the sample of the item No. 17,
 23 the blood of O.J. Simpson, did you similarly inventory how
 24 much of that sample you consumed?
 25      A    The proportion that would be consumed would
 26 have been, oh, a stain of -- well, consisting of
 27 significantly less than one drop out of the vial, which,
 28 when I received it, had about 2 milliliters of blood in
 01 it.  So it would have been an insignificant quantity to the
 02 amount that was present.
 03      mr. uelmen:  Thank you.
 04      THE COURT:  Miss Clark, anything further?
 05      Ms. clark:  No, thank you.  Nothing further, your
 06 Honor.
 07      THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Matheson.  You may step
 08 down.
 09           Please do not discuss your testimony with
 10 anyone but the attorneys.
 11      mr. hodgman:  And good morning, your Honor.
 12           The next witness for the people will be
 13 Dr. Irwin Golden.
 14      THE COURT:  All right.
 15           Good morning.  Please face the clerk and raise
 16 your right hand.
 17      THE CLERK:  You do solemnly swear that the testimony
 18 you are about to give in the cause now pending before this
 19 court shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
 20 the truth, so help you god?
 21      THE WITNESS:  I do.
 23                      Irwin L. Golden,
 24 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People, was
 25 examined and testified as follows:
 26      THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
 27           State and spell your name, for the record.
 28      THE WITNESS:  Irwin L. Golden, I-r-w-i-n
 01 G-o-l-d-e-n.
 02      THE COURT:  You may inquire.
 03      mr. hodgman:  Thank you very much, your Honor.
 05                    DIRECT EXAMINATION
 08      Q    Good morning, Dr. Golden.
 09      A    Good morning.
 10      Q    You are a physician licensed to practice medicine
 11 in the state of California, are you not?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    And, sir, you are now employed by the
 14 Los Angeles county department of the coroner; is that
 15 correct?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    Dr. Golden, would you tell us what your job title
 18 is with the L.A. County department of the coroner.
 19      A    I am a deputy medical examiner.
 20      Q    And would you describe for us, please, what your
 21 duties and functions are as a deputy medical examiner.
 22      A    As a deputy medical examiner, I am a physician
 23 specialist; and my duties are to perform autopsies on
 24 decedents that come under our jurisdiction and to determine
 25 the cause and manner of death.
 26      Q    Sir, how long have you worked as a deputy
 27 medical examiner for the L.A. County department of the
 28 coroner?
 01      A    I have completed 14 years.  I am in my 15th
 02 year now.  I started in July of 1980.
 03      Q    And, dr. Golden, have you received any
 04 specialized education, training or experience that
 05 qualifies you to hold your position as a deputy medical
 06 examiner?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    And please describe that for us.
 09      A    Well, besides being a doctor of medicine, I
 10 have received four additional years of postgraduate
 11 residency training in pathology and one year of
 12 postgraduate residency training in forensic pathology; and I
 13 am certified by the American board of pathology in
 14 anatomical pathology, clinical pathology and forensic
 15 pathology.
 01      Q    Doctor, let's break those down just a little
 02 bit.
 03           First of all, sir, you describe yourself as a
 04 physician and you have testified that you are a
 05 physician; is that correct?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    And where did you attend medical school, sir?
 08      A    I attended the University of Illinois, college
 09 of medicine.
 10      Q    And when did you graduate, sir?
 11      A    1966.
 12      Q    And you stated that following your graduation
 13 from the University of Illinois that you've received
 14 some specialized training; is that correct?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    And that was four years worth; is that
 17 correct?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    And you mentioned that you are certified in
 20 certain -- with regard to certain aspects of pathology;
 21 is that correct?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    And by certified, are you referring to board
 24 certification?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    Would you describe for us, please, what it
 27 means to be board certified.
 28      A    Well, the physician specialty groups have
 01 their own sub-specialty boards which certify physicians
 02 as competent in their field, so, for example, an
 03 internist will have board certification in internal
 04 medicine.   A surgeon may be board certified in surgery
 05 or general surgery.
 06           The pathology group or sub-specialty has board
 07 certification also in various branches of pathology.
 08      Q    And are there tests -- are there requirements
 09 that enable one to become board certified, sir?
 10      A    Yes, yes.
 11      Q    And do those tests and other requirements
 12 exist with regard to those certain specialties that you
 13 have mentioned thus far in your testimony?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    Now, amongst the certifications that you've
 16 indicated, you've indicated that you have -- you were
 17 certified in pathology; is that correct?
 18      A    Anatomical pathology, clinical pathology,
 19 forensic pathology.
 20      Q    And would you describe the difference or
 21 distinction between those three types of pathology for
 22 us.
 23      A    Well, anatomical pathology is that branch of
 24 clinical medicine that deals with the -- I guess I could
 25 say deals with autopsy pathology and surgical pathology
 26 as well as biopsy, exfoliative cytology.
 27           In other words, there's a clinical
 28 sub-specialty in some respects.   It also deals with
 01 autopsy pathology.   And clinical pathology is basically
 02 laboratory medicine.   Those are those doctors who
 03 specialize in the use of laboratory methods for the
 04 study and diagnosis of disease.
 05      Q    And, doctor, with regard to forensic
 06 pathology?
 07      A    Well, forensic pathology deals in those
 08 aspects of pathology that come in relationship to the
 09 law; and as you know, forensic pathologists perform
 10 autopsies to determine the cause and manner of death,
 11 and forensic pathologists have special knowledge of
 12 violent or non-natural deaths.
 13           In other words, all of the -- all the causes
 14 of death -- all of the causes of death that are not due
 15 to natural causes, such as accident, homicide, suicide.
 16      Q    And, sir, it's -- as a forensic pathologist,
 17 you work in your job for the L.A. Department of Coroner;
 18 is that correct?
 19      A    Yes.
 20      Q    How long have you been working for the L.A.
 21 department of the coroner?
 22      A    Since 1980.   July of 1980.
 23      Q    And, sir, I have to assume, since you've been
 24 working since July of 1980 for the department of the
 25 coroner, in that course of time you've had the
 26 opportunity and occasion to perform a number of
 27 autopsies; is that correct?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    Would you give us an estimate of approximately
 02 how many autopsies you've performed since starting work
 03 for the L.A. County department of the coroner.
 04      A    I would say approximately -- well, it's more
 05 than 5,000.   Somewhere in the mid 5,000 autopsies.
 06      Q    And Dr. Golden, in the course of your duties
 07 as a deputy medical examiner here in the County of
 08 Los Angeles, have you had occasion to testify in court
 09 and to render opinions as to cause of death as well as
 10 manner of death?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    And approximately how many times have you so
 13 testified?
 14      A    Well, using an estimate that I testify three
 15 or four times a month, and let's say rounding that out
 16 to approximately 50 times a year, so in 14 years I would
 17 say close to 700 times.   Somewhere, 650 to 700 times.
 18      Q    Dr. Golden, I would like to direct your
 19 attention to the date of June the 14th, 1994.
 20           Were you working in your capacity as a deputy
 21 medical examiner on that date?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    And were you at work in the early morning
 24 hours of that date?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    On the date of June the 14th, 1994, did you
 27 perform an autopsy upon the body of an individual
 28 identified to you as Nicole Brown Simpson?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    And, sir, was a particular L.A. County coroner
 03 case number assigned to that case?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    And what number was assigned to that
 06 particular case?
 07      A    It was assigned case 94-05136.
 08      Q    Now Dr. Golden, later in the morning of June
 09 the 14th, 1994, did you perform an autopsy upon the body
 10 of an individual identified to you as Ronald Goldman?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    And Dr. Golden, was a coroner case number
 13 assigned to that particular case?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    What was that number, please?
 16      A    94-05135.
 17      Q    Dr. Golden, in connection with each of those
 18 autopsies that you performed that morning, was an
 19 autopsy report prepared?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    And typically, what is included in an autopsy
 22 report?
 23      A    Well, the autopsy report includes my protocol
 24 transcription, which the protocol describes my autopsy
 25 findings.
 26      Q    And --
 27      A    And that's what I personally have prepared
 28 through dictation and transcription.
 01           And it also includes a number of diagrams
 02 which I have personally prepared.
 03           That -- that -- that is what I have personally
 04 prepared, plus a -- if you want to be precise about
 05 this, there's also a form medical report, "Forensic
 06 Science Center," where I list -- I list the cause and
 07 manner of death.   That is used by the certification
 08 desk to prepare the death certificate.   So these are
 09 all prepared by me.
 10           The actual report contains additional pages
 11 that are not prepared by me, but they are included in
 12 the autopsy report.
 13      Q    They are part of the autopsy report package,
 14 are they not?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    And Dr. Golden, you've stated that you
 17 dictated notes and prepared diagrams with regard to your
 18 protocol; is that correct?
 19      A    Yes.
 20      Q    And does that mean, sir, at the time you're
 21 performing the autopsy you are making notes of your
 22 findings, and that at some point contemporaneous with
 23 that you are dictating your findings; is that correct?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    And is it at some time subsequent to that,
 26 that you prepare what is known as an autopsy report?
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    At first, is that report prepared in rough,
 01 then reviewed by yourself, and then published in a final
 02 form?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    Now, with regard to the autopsy performed on
 05 Nicole Brown Simpson, when was that report prepared?
 06      A    The final copy was signed on June 16th,
 07 1994.   If that's what you meant by your question.
 08      Q    And the preparation of that report had taken
 09 place, I would have to assume, between the dates of June
 10 the 14th and June the 16th, then; is that correct?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    And with regard to the autopsy report
 13 pertaining to Ronald Goldman, sir, when was that report
 14 prepared and issued?
 15      A    Well, between the 14th and the -- and the --
 16 and the -- actually, I signed the report on Mr. Goldman
 17 on June 17th, 1994.
 18      Q    Okay.   Thank you, sir.
 19           And Dr. Golden, it's a fact, is it not, that
 20 during the course of the autopsy, you direct that
 21 photographs be taken as well; is that correct?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    And in the course of preparing an autopsy
 24 report, often it is good to look at those photographs in
 25 order to assist you in your findings and observations
 26 and conclusions; is that correct?
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    And in these two instances, were photographs
 01 taken of each autopsy while the autopsy was being
 02 performed?
 03      A    Yes, they were.
 04      Q    Now, you testified before the Los Angeles
 05 County Grand Jury on the date of June the 20th, 1994,
 06 did you not?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    And after you testified before the Grand Jury,
 09 did your department issue some additional reports with
 10 regard to the autopsies performed on Nicole Brown
 11 Simpson and Ronald Goldman?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    Are those reports characterized as addendums?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    Was there an addendum that was prepared with
 16 regard to Nicole Brown Simpson's autopsy report?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    And when was that report issued, sir?
 19      A    It was issued July 1st, 1994.
 20      Q    And it is true, is it not, Dr. Golden, that an
 21 addendum to the Ronald Goldman autopsy report was issued
 22 on that same date?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    Now, with regard to the addendums, Dr. Golden,
 25 why were those addendums prepared?
 26      A    Okay.   I'll go through each case number.
 27           On Nicole Brown Simpson, addendum report was
 28 prepared for the following reasons:
 01           One, there were corrections of typographical
 02 errors.
 03           Two, upon review of the photographs I made
 04 amendments, additions to the original report.
 05           And pertaining only to Nicole Brown Simpson, I
 06 made an addendum opinion after review of stored tissue,
 07 and that  --
 08      Q    And you had not had an opportunity to review
 09 that stored tissue prior to the issuance of the autopsy
 10 report; is that correct?
 11      A    That is correct.
 12      Q    Now, sir, there were some additional
 13 corrections of typos, amendments to the autopsy report
 14 of -- on Ronald Goldman; is that correct?
 15      A    Yes, that's correct.
 16      Q    And sir, before you issued the autopsy
 17 reports -- or caused to be issued the autopsy reports
 18 with regard to each victim in this case, had you had an
 19 opportunity to review the photographs which were taken
 20 during each of the autopsies?
 21      A    No.
 22      Q    Subsequent to the issuance of those reports,
 23 did you have an opportunity to make a detailed review of
 24 those photographs?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    And was it subsequent to the review of those
 27 photographs, a detailed review, that these addendums
 28 were issued?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    With regard to the addendum, does any of the
 03 basic data or findings of -- that were included in your
 04 original autopsy reports, does any of that change?
 05      A    The changes were made to make the report more
 06 precise and detailed.   The basic findings -- and that
 07 includes findings as to the cause of death -- were not
 08 changed.   There were no changes about -- pertaining to
 09 the internal examination.
 10           Basic measurements taken when I did the
 11 examination, including measurements on the stab wounds,
 12 were not changed.
 13           All of the basic measurements, particularly
 14 ones that would pertain to cause of death or weapon
 15 identification, were not changed.
 16           I changed some of the descriptions based on
 17 the photographs to provide a more precise and detailed
 18 description for this report.
 19      Q    Now, doctor, let's relate back to the morning,
 20 June the 14th, 1994.
 21           You commenced the autopsy procedure on the
 22 body of Nicole Brown Simpson at about 7:30 in the
 23 morning; is that correct?
 24      A    Yes.   Yes, I did.
 25      Q    And as part of your autopsy procedure or
 26 protocol, did you perform an external examination of
 27 Nicole's body?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    When you first saw the body, sir, was the body
 02 clothed?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    Would you describe for us what -- how you
 05 recall the body being clothed?
 06      A    Well, the decedent was wearing a short black
 07 dress that was blood stained, and a pair of black
 08 panties.   That's what she was wearing.
 09      Q    What was the condition of the dress?
 10      A    It appeared to be blood stained.
 11      Q    Was it still damp or dried blood?
 12      A    Well, it appeared to be partially -- it
 13 appeared to be partially damp.
 14      Q    And as part of your autopsy procedure, sir,
 15 did you cause the clothing to be removed?
 16      A    The clothing was removed for photography
 17 purposes, and also the clothing had to be dried and
 18 preserved as evidence.
 19      Q    And did you direct that that be done with
 20 regard to Nicole Brown Simpson's clothing?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    After the clothing was removed, Dr. Golden,
 23 did you determine the length of Nicole Brown Simpson's
 24 body?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    And what was that, sir?
 27      A    Body length was 65 inches, or five feet five
 28 inches.   Body weight was 129 pounds.
 01      Q    And, Dr. Golden, did you determine the weight
 02 of Nicole Brown Simpson's body.
 03      A    Yes, 129 pounds.
 04      Q    After determining the length and weight of
 05 Nicole's body, did you observe any evidence of injury to
 06 the neck of Nicole Brown Simpson?
 07      A    Yes, I did.
 08      Q    Would you describe what you observed,
 09 Dr. Golden.
 10      A    The decedent had an incised wound -- that is a
 11 cutting wound -- of the neck, which extended from the
 12 left side of the neck, across the larynx or voice box,
 13 and then angulated upwards towards the right ear.
 14      Q    And Dr. Golden, did you observe a number of
 15 stab wounds to the left side of Nicole Brown Simpson's
 16 neck?
 17      A    Yes, I did.
 18      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, excuse me.
 19           For the sake of the record, I have no
 20 objection to the doctor refreshing his memory or reading
 21 from the report, but I would like the record to indicate
 22 when that is being done.
 23      THE COURT:  All right.
 24           Have you been reading, in response to the last
 25 couple of questions, from your report, doctor?
 26      THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 27      THE COURT:  Okay, thank you.
 28      MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 02      Q    Dr. Golden, did you create a diagram which
 03 reflected the approximate locations of the wounds that
 04 you just indicated in your testimony?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, I have here a diagram.
 07 I have previously shown this to counsel.   It is a
 08 coroner's diagram.   It reflects relative positions of
 09 the wounds thus far described by Dr. Golden.
 10           May this be People's 25 for identification?
 11      THE COURT:  Yes.
 13      Q    Doctor, do you see the exhibit that has now
 14 been identified as People's 25 for identification?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    All right.
 17           And would you indicate for us what is depicted
 18 on that diagram.
 19      A    There's a lot depicted on the diagram, but
 20 basically there's a diagram of the cutting or incised
 21 wound on the neck, which is indicated here in this
 22 schematic that I'm pointing to now.
 23      Q    And for the record, sir, you're indicating a
 24 schematic of the neck and head portion of a human figure
 25 in the upper left-hand corner of the diagram; is that
 26 correct?
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    Let us focus on that particular wound for a
 01 few moments, if we may.
 02           Doctor, you have characterized that wound as a
 03 cutting or incised wound; is that correct?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    Would you describe for us what a cutting or
 06 incised wound is.
 07      A    Well, an incised wound is a injury produced by
 08 a sharp object that cuts across the skin and produces an
 09 injury that is longer than it is deep.
 10      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, again, may the record
 11 indicate that at least the first portion of that answer
 12 was read from the autopsy report, or appeared to be
 13 read.
 14      THE COURT:  The witness is shaking his head no.   I
 15 don't think he was reading that.
 16      THE WITNESS:  I wasn't reading anything.
 17      MR. SHAPIRO:  I'm sorry.   It appeared to me at
 18 this point.
 19           Can the witness be instructed if he is going
 20 to read or refresh his memory that he just indicate
 21 that.   We have no objection to that procedure.
 22      THE COURT:  All right.
 23           Anytime you do elect to read something, if you
 24 could just state it so that the record is clear.
 26      Q    Now doctor, with regard to the cutting or
 27 incised wounds that you have described thus far in your
 28 testimony, would you give us the dimensions of that
 01 wound as noted by yourself during Nicole Brown Simpson's
 02 autopsy?
 03      A    All right.
 04           Well, I can get that from the diagram charts.
 05           Basically it was a gaping wound measuring
 06 5 1/2 inches in length by 2 1/2 inches in width.
 07           And after alignment of the edges -- that is,
 08 by moving them together and approximating the edges, the
 09 right-hand side measured 4 inches and the left-hand side
 10 measured 2 1/2 inches.
 11      Q    And sir, when you refer to "right-hand side"
 12 and "left-hand side," you are relating that in accord
 13 with a hypothetical midline, are you not?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    The midline would be a line hypothetically
 16 going down the middle of the body; is that correct?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    And when you're referring to right and left
 19 aspect of the midline, you are characterizing that as
 20 one would observe the decedent from the front; is that
 21 correct?   The right side -- the left side of the body
 22 and the right side of the body, in other words.
 23      A    All descriptions refer to the decedent, not to
 24 the observer.
 25      Q    Very well.
 26           Now, with regard to the right ear lobe and
 27 right side of the midline, you've stated that this wound
 28 appears to -- after going across the neck, appears to
 01 angulate upward toward the right ear lobe; is that
 02 correct?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    Now, with regard to the right side of the
 05 wound path -- this would be referring to the right side
 06 of this hypothetical midline -- would you give us a
 07 description of your findings regarding the wound path
 08 and depth of wound.
 09      A    Okay.   Well, I will also look at my notes to
 10 refresh my memory, but this wound passed through the
 11 muscles on the right side of the neck and cut through
 12 the membrane between the larynx and the hyoid bone.
 13           Let's see.   The -- see, the wound on the left
 14 side and cutting across the midline is transverse or
 15 horizontally.
 16           In a single wound of this nature, I traced the
 17 depth as it went through anatomic structures, so it
 18 passed through the skin and the tissue beneath the
 19 subcutaneous tissue under the jaw, then across through
 20 the thyrohyoid membrane and ligament, and it went as
 21 deep as -- it went through that ligament posterior, or
 22 backwards, and transected the distal 1/3 of the
 23 epiglottis, then through the pharynx, and passed
 24 directly through to the vertebral column, which is the
 25 bone of the vertebral column, specifically the third
 26 cervical vertebra.
 27           And then I found a wound in the body of the
 28 third cervical vertebra where the actual cut went in
 01 for 1/4 of an inch into the bone.
 02      Q    So this particular wound that you've described
 03 thus far was deep enough to cut through the neck and
 04 actually cause a nick on the spinal column; is that
 05 correct?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    And that is at the third cervical vertebra; is
 08 that correct?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    Now along the wound path, were any vital blood
 11 vessels severed?
 12      A    Yes.   As I was saying, as the wound went up
 13 or angulated towards the right ear, it became more
 14 superficial and then ended in the skin below the right
 15 ear lobe.
 16           Now, on my dissection of the wound, the right
 17 common carotid artery was severed or completely cut
 18 across, transected, and there was a 1/4 inch nick or cut
 19 on the right internal jugular vein.   Now, that was on
 20 the right side.
 21           On the left side, tracing the wound from the
 22 midline towards the left, the left common carotid artery
 23 was transected and the internal jugular vein was almost
 24 transected.   There was a thin strand of tissue bridging
 25 across the two cut ends.
 26      Q    So Dr. Golden, with regard to this particular
 27 wound, we have the complete severing of both carotid
 28 arteries; is that correct?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    And you have the near severing of one jugular
 03 vein and a nick in the other jugular vein; is that
 04 correct?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    Now, doctor, did you form an opinion as to
 07 whether or not this particular wound in and of itself
 08 was a fatal wound?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    And what was your opinion?
 11      A    This is a fatal wound.
 12      Q    And why, sir?    Please explain.
 13      A    Well, both the carotid arteries and the common
 14 carotid arteries and internal jugular veins were
 15 transected and cut, which would lead to exsanguinating
 16 hemorrhage.
 17      Q    And what was exsanguinating --
 18      A    Bleeding out.
 19      Q    Which ultimately would cause death, would it
 20 not?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    Doctor, referring to the diagram which has
 23 been marked as People's 25 for identification, and the
 24 figure in the lower right-hand corner, do you see that,
 25 sir?
 26      A    25?
 27      Q    It's People's 25, to the side of the witness
 28 stand, sir.
 01      THE COURT:  Mr. Hodgman, I think this is an
 02 appropriate time to take a 15-minute recess.
 03      MR. HODGMAN:  Very well.
 08            (A recess was taken at 10:30 a.m.)
 01                      IRWIN L. GOLDEN,
 02 Having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand, was
 03 examined and testified further as follows:
 05      THE COURT:  Once again on the record in the case of
 06 people v. Simpson.
 07           The defendant is present with counsel.  The
 08 people are represented.  Dr. Golden is back on the
 09 witness stand.
 10           I remind you, sir, you are still under oath.
 11           Mr. Hodgman.
 12      mr. hodgman:  Thank you very much, your Honor.
 16 BY mr. hodgman:
 17      Q    Dr. Golden, at the break we had just made
 18 reference to a figure at the right-hand side of the
 19 exhibit that has been marked People's 25 for
 20 identification.
 21           Now, doctor, with regard to that particular
 22 figure, it depicts, or makes reference to, four stab wounds
 23 to the left side of the neck; is that correct?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    And with regard to your diagram, those wounds
 26 are numbered 1, 2, 3 and 4; is that correct?
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    And wound no. 2 appears to be less visible than
 01 the wounds that have been numbered 1, 3 and 4; is that
 02 right?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    Doctor, with regard to those wounds, these
 05 numbers are for reference purposes only, are they not?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    They do not necessarily indicate the order of the
 08 wounds, do they?
 09      A    That's correct.
 10      Q    Doctor, I would like to have you briefly
 11 describe the wounds depicted on the diagram starting with
 12 wound no. 1, as you have so referred to it.
 13      A    Okay.
 14           That is wound no. 1, and I am also referring to a
 15 report to also help me refresh my memory.
 16           They are on the left side of the neck over the
 17 sternocleidomastoid muscle and extending from 3 inches
 18 below the external auditory canal, and I have numbered 1.
 19           And no. 2 is not that visible here, but I have --
 20 I have the number and my notes about it and my measurements
 21 here.
 22           Then there is no. 3, left side of the neck,
 23 diagonally oriented.
 24           And then, left side of the neck, the fourth one,
 25 lowest down, is diagonally oriented.
 26           So that comprises -- that comprises the four stab
 27 wounds we were referring to.
 28      Q    With regard to stab wound no. 1, as we are
 01 referring to it, that wound was approximately 5/8 inch in
 02 length, was it not?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    And that is reflected in your autopsy report, is
 05 it not?
 06      A    Yes, 5/8 inch.
 07      Q    Would you tell us what you observed with regard
 08 to the nature of the wound to the skin.
 09      A    I made measurements of these wounds.
 10           All the measurements are made after I personally
 11 inspect the wounds and approximate and realign the edges to
 12 make them conform more with their -- with their appearance
 13 as a stab wound because stab wounds such as these gape at
 14 the center and the only way to get an estimation, or an
 15 approximation, of the true length of the wound is to align
 16 the edges by twisting the skin and pushing the skin into
 17 alignment.  so all of my measurements are made that way,
 18 And then I observe the configuration.
 19           This wound was a 5/8-inch wound which was
 20 vertically oriented, had a blunt end anteriorly and a
 21 pointed end superiorly, which means it had sort of -- it
 22 had the shape of a very narrow triangle and the blunt end
 23 was in the lower part and then it came to a point above.
 24      Q    And what was the depth of penetration for this
 25 particular wound?
 26      A    The depth of penetration is approximate
 27 because this wound no. 1 as well as no. 3 and 4 were
 28 within an inch and a half of the cutting wound that was on
 01 the left side of the neck and these wounds shared common
 02 areas of injury with the others.  So the exact depth could
 03 not be determined with any degree of precision.
 04      Q    And when you refer to "the cutting wound," you
 05 are referring to the wound you described earlier in your
 06 testimony and as depicted in the upper left-hand corner
 07 of the diagram People's 25; is that correct?
 08      A    Yes.  I am referring to that incised, or cutting,
 09 wound of the neck.
 10      Q    Now, doctor, with regard to stab wound no. 2,
 11 as you have indicated in your autopsy report, that was a
 12 superficial splitlike incision approximately 1/8 inch in
 13 length; correct?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    With regard to stab wound no. 3, also located on
 16 the left side of the neck, was that approximately a
 17 1/2-inch-length wound?
 18      A    Yes; a 1/2-inch diagonally oriented wound just
 19 below no. 1, on the sternocleidomastoid muscle.  It had a
 20 blunt end as well as a pointed end, similar to no. 1.  And,
 21 again, this wound, going through the skin and into the
 22 tissue beneath the skin, shared a common area of injury --
 23 You could say it intersected, or crossed paths or planes --
 24 with the incised wound of the neck; So the depth of
 25 penetration is approximate.
 26      Q    And you approximated it at approximately 1-1/2 to
 27 2 inches; is that correct?
 28      A    Yes.  That would be maximal.  Yes.
 01      Q    And with regard to stab wound no. 4, as indicated
 02 on your diagram, sir, also located on the left side of the
 03 neck?
 04      A    Yes.
 05           That was the lowest of the group.  That was 7/8
 06 inch in length; Again, a blunt end or squared off end 1/32
 07 inch and a pointed end at the opposite side; Again, 1-,
 08 1-1/2-inch penetration into the neck.
 09      Q    With regard to these wounds we have
 10 characterized as 1, 2, 3 and 4, were any of them
 11 consistent with having been inflicted by a single-edge
 12 knife?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    Which one or ones?
 15      A    1, 3 and 4.
 16      Q    And why is that, sir?
 17      A    Because of the configuration.
 18           A single-edged knife -- or knife blade will have
 19 a dull end -- correction.  a single-edge blade will have a
 20 sharp edge and a dull edge, and a stab wound corresponding
 21 to that knife will have a blunt end and a pointed end; and
 22 that's what I found on -- that's what I found on those
 23 three wounds.
 24      Q    Thank you, sir.
 25           Dr. Golden, would you define for us as well as
 26 explain the distinction between antemortem and perimortem.
 27      A    Well --
 28      Q    What does "antemortem" mean?
 01      A    Well, "antemortem" means before death; and that
 02 refers to injuries that occur before death, while the
 03 person is alive and there would be obviously vital
 04 activity.
 05      Q    What do you mean by "vital activity"?
 06      A    Well, blood pressure, particularly blood
 07 pressure in the vessels where an injury might occur.
 08 That's where we are concerned with vital activity -- where
 09 injuries might occur during life or after death.
 10      Q    What does "perimortem" mean?
 11      A    "Perimortem" means about the time of death --
 12 shortly before, at the time of death or shortly thereafter.
 13      Q    Dr. Golden, with regard to stab wounds 1, 2, 3
 14 and 4, as indicated on People's 25 for identification,
 15 would you characterize those as antemortem wounds?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    And did you observe in connection with each of
 18 those wounds some sort of vital activity, as you have
 19 described, which would cause you to determine they were
 20 antemortem?
 21      A    Yes.  All of these injuries had bleeding
 22 either at the margins or in the tissue spaces along the
 23 wound path.
 24      Q    Doctor --
 25      a    I might say, incidentally, when I describe
 26 Wounds -- or forensic pathologists describe wounds, we may
 27 say -- we may describe injuries and specify where injuries
 28 appear to be postmortem.  I mean, that is characteristic.
 01 If we find a wound that appears to be inflicted postmortem,
 02 we would specifically state that.  And, contrary to that,
 03 when we see vital activity, we generally describe bleeding
 04 in the wound or in the wound path or in the tissue spaces
 05 along the wound to substantiate that they occurred during
 06 life.
 07      Q    Dr. Golden, with regard to the figure in the
 08 lower left-hand portion of the diagram marked as People's
 09 25 for identification, does that figure indicate some sort
 10 of wound or trauma to the right side of nicole brown
 11 Simpson's head?
 12      A    If we are referring to the red marking here,
 13 yes.
 14      Q    And what did you find during the course of your
 15 autopsy that indicated such a wound or trauma?
 16      A    Well, I am referring to my report to refresh my
 17 memory; but there was a bruise on the right side of the
 18 scalp 4 inches directly above the ear canal.  And, after a
 19 shaving of the scalp, it was 1 by 1 inch.  It was a fresh
 20 bruise.  It was red -- red/Violet in color.  No other
 21 injury was apparent -- no other injury or laceration -- and
 22 this bruise, on subsequent examination, disclosed bruising
 23 beneath the scalp -- correction on that -- fresh bruising
 24 beneath the scalp.
 25      Q    Would that indicate to you this was an
 26 antemortem wound?
 27      A    Yes.  This was an antemortem wound associated
 28 with a deep scalp bruise.
 01      Q    Inflicted, consequently, while nicole brown
 02 Simpson was still alive; is that correct?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    And, inferentially, before she received the
 05 gaping incised wound across the neck; is that correct?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      mr. hodgman:  Your Honor, I have another diagram I
 08 would like to have marked.  It pertains to the autopsy of
 09 nicole brown Simpson.  It reflects three wounds to the
 10 scalp.  May this be People's 26 for identification?
 11      THE COURT:  Yes.
 12 BY mr. hodgman:
 13      Q    Dr. Golden, during the course of your autopsy on
 14 the body of nicole brown Simpson, did you observe wounds or
 15 trauma to the scalp of nicole?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    Tell us what you observed, sir.
 18      A    There was a cutting wound on the back of the
 19 scalp, left side, which -- and I am referring to my report,
 20 particularly, the addendum report on nicole brown Simpson.
 21           It was a 1-1/4-inch-length, diagonally oriented
 22 cutting wound, tapered above.  And this doesn't reflect it
 23 as Well -- the diagram doesn't reflect the actual
 24 Appearance -- as the photograph would; but it is a
 25 1-1/4-inch-long cutting wound.  It was longer than deep.
 26 It went into the scalp approximately 3/8 inch to 1-1/2
 27 inches and did no further damage to the skull.
 28      Q    this was not a fatal wound, I take it?
 01      A    No.
 02      Q    Was it an antemortem wound, that is, one
 03 inflicted before nicole brown Simpson died?
 04      A    Yes.  This was associated with fresh scalp
 05 hemorrhage, in other words, bleeding in the deep scalp
 06 tissues.
 07      Q    Now, Dr. Golden, there were two other wounds you
 08 observed with regard to nicole brown Simpson's scalp; is
 09 that correct?
 10      A    Yes.
 11           There was a cutting wound or stab wound
 12 superficially right in the posterior parietal -- in other
 13 words, lower down here, on the right side of the lower
 14 scalp.  This was a 1-1/2 inch in length superficial wound
 15 only going in 3/8 inch to 1-1/2 inches -- a nonfatal
 16 Wound -- and there was a small amount of hemorrhage
 17 associated -- again, that occurred before death.  It was an
 18 antemortem injury.
 19      Q    Thank you, doctor.
 20           For purposes of the record, you were
 21 indicating a wound roughly in the center of the head,
 22 midway between the ears, on People's 26 for identification?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    There -- there was a third wound.  Would you
 25 briefly describe that wound for us and indicate whether or
 26 not it was antemortem, perimortem or postmortem.
 27      A    That was an antemortem cutting wound 3/16 inch in
 28 length, involving the skin only, with a small amount of
 01 deep scalp hemorrhage.  It is antemortem.  Again, it was a
 02 superficial cutting wound of the scalp.
 03      Q    And you are indicating on the diagram People's 26
 04 for identification a wound closest to the left ear as
 05 depicted on the diagram; is that correct?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    Now, doctor, during the course of your autopsy
 08 as performed on nicole brown Simpson's body, did you
 09 notice any injuries to her hands?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    Tell us about that, sir.
 12      A    Referring to my notes, my autopsy notes,
 13 protocol, to refresh my memory, on the index finger -- on
 14 the right index finger there was a 5/8-inch-long cut of the
 15 skin adjacent to the distal knuckle.  It involved the skin
 16 only.  And it had a tangential cut, which would indicate
 17 that it was shelved; it didn't go in straight.  It was an
 18 oblique cut, which would indicate a shelving, or
 19 tangential, cut.
 20      Q    And what is the distal knuckle?
 21      A    The one closest to the fingertip.
 22           Proximal (pointing), distal (pointing).
 23           Proximal would be closer to the hand, and distal
 24 would be closer to the fingertip.
 25      Q    I see.
 26           Would you briefly describe the other wounds to
 27 nicole brown Simpson's hands you observed.
 28      A    a few minor injuries.
 01           A punctate abrasion on the ring finger of her
 02 right hand, on the -- there was a punctate abrasion at the
 03 base of the right ring finger and a 1-1/2-inch superficial
 04 cut on the top of the left hand.
 05      Q    Dr. Golden, are you familiar with the term
 06 "defense wounds"?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    What are defense wounds, sir?
 09      A    Defense wounds are injuries on the upper
 10 extremities, either the arms or the hands, which would
 11 occur when the victim raises the extremities to protect the
 12 body or to ward off or grab the instrument or ward off, or
 13 fend off, a blow by an assailant.
 14      Q    Sir, in your opinion were any of the wounds to
 15 nicole brown Simpson's hands compatible with defense
 16 wounds?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    And why is that, sir?
 19      A    The cut -- the cut on the right index finger is
 20 in a characteristic location for a defense wound -- on the
 21 palm, or volar surface, of the finger -- which could
 22 indicate an attempt to fend off the weapon or to grab the
 23 weapon.
 24           And the superficial cutting wound on the top of
 25 the hand that I described could also be construed as a
 26 defense wound.  It is a superficial cut but could also
 27 indicate a defensive motion to attempt to ward off the -- I
 28 don't want to say "blow" -- to ward off the weapon that was
 01 inflicting the injuries.
 02      Q    Dr. Golden, at the conclusion of the autopsy that
 03 you performed on nicole brown Simpson's body, did you form
 04 an opinion as to the cause of her death?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    What was your opinion, sir?
 07      A    She died as a result of the sharp force injuries,
 08 which include -- the cutting wounds and the stab -- and the
 09 stab wounds, they are grouped as sharp force injuries.
 10      Q    And that would include the wounds most
 11 specifically depicted and characterized by your
 12 testimony in People's 25 for identification; is that
 13 correct?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    Dr. Golden, later in the morning on June 14,
 16 1994, you performed an autopsy upon the body of an
 17 individual identified to you as ronald Goldman; is that
 18 correct?
 19      A    Yes.
 20      Q    And prior to performing the autopsy
 21 procedures, did you examine the body and determine that
 22 it was clothed?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    And would you describe how Mr. Goldman's body was
 25 clothed when you first observed it.
 26      A    I will also refer to my autopsy protocol; but he
 27 was wearing a long-sleeve type of shirt or sweater that was
 28 extensively bloodstained at the time I examined it, and he
 01 was also wearing a pair of bloodstained levi jeans and two
 02 canvas-type boots and two sweat socks.
 03      Q    Sir, with regard to the shirt, did you examine
 04 it for any evidence of cuts or slits or tears?
 05      A    Yes, I did.
 06      Q    What did you find?
 07      A    On the front or -- lower right side, there was a
 08 1-1/2-inch slitlike tear; lower right sleeve, a 1-inch
 09 slitlike tear.
 10           On the back, lower side of the back, there was a
 11 1-1/2-inch slitlike tear.
 12      Q    Sir, with regard to Mr. Goldman's jeans, did
 13 you find any evidence of a slit, tear or cut in that
 14 item of clothes?
 15      A    Yes.  On the jeans, on the outside of the left
 16 hip region, there was a 1-1/2-inch-long slit.
 17      Q    And, Dr. Golden, as part of your autopsy
 18 procedure, was the clothing removed from Mr. Goldman's body
 19 and preserved?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    After the clothing was removed, Dr. Golden, did
 22 you determine the length of Mr. Goldman's body?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    And what was that, sir?
 25      A    69 inches, or 5 feet 9 inches.
 26      Q    And did you also determine the weight of
 27 Mr. Goldman's body?
 28      A    Yes.  171 pounds.
 01      Q    Doctor, did you observe injury to the neck
 02 area of ronald Goldman?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    And starting with the front of the neck, did you
 05 observe any evidence of injury to the front of the neck?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      mr. hodgman:  Your Honor, I have here a diagram
 08 pertaining to ronald goldman's autopsy.  It reflects
 09 wounds to the front of the neck as well as to the right
 10 side of the face and the left side of the neck.  May that
 11 be People's 27 for identification?
 12      THE COURT:  Yes.
 13      mr. hodgman:  Thank you.
 14      Q    Dr. Golden, People's 27 for identification is
 15 a diagram that you prepared in the course of the autopsy
 16 you performed upon ronald Goldman's body; is that
 17 correct?
 18      A    Yes, it is.
 19      Q    And during the course of that autopsy, did you
 20 observe what appeared to be two parallel incised wounds
 21 on the front of Mr. Goldman's neck?
 22      A    Yes, I did.
 23      Q    Would you describe those in more detail for us,
 24 sir, and make reference to the diagram People's 27 for
 25 identification as you do so.
 26      A    May I also use the autopsy report and the
 27 addendum report?
 28           Basically, at the -- there was a transverse
 01 superficial cutting wound at the level of the superior
 02 border of the larynx, or voice box, 3 inches in length; and
 03 it on the left side went within 1-1/2 inch of another
 04 injury of the left side of the neck to be described later.
 05 And it went transversely across the front of the neck to
 06 the right side -- to the right anterior side of the neck.
 07      Q    How deep was that particular wound, Dr. Golden?
 08      A    It was deeper on the left, where it went down
 09 through the skin and dermis To the fascia, the connective
 10 tissue beneath the dermis and overlying the muscle.  It
 11 became more superficial on the right.
 12      Q    Was that a deep wound?
 13      A    I have already described it went down through the
 14 fascia on the left and tapered to the skin on the right.
 15 It was not a fatal wound.
 16      Q    And what is the fascia?
 17      A    fascia is the connective tissue, the flat sheet
 18 of connective tissue, beneath -- in the tissue planes.
 19 Here it would be the covering -- the superficial fascia
 20 overlying the muscles of the neck.
 21      Q    And, doctor, this particular incised wound was
 22 not fatal in and of itself; is that correct?
 23      A    No, it was not.
 24      Q    Was it inflicted antemortem, that is, before
 25 fatal wounds were inflicted upon Mr. Goldman?
 26      Mr. shapiro:  Your Honor, again, just for the sake of
 27 the record -- and I hate to bring this up -- from where I
 28 am sitting, it appears the doctor, from time to time, at
 01 least, refreshes his memory.
 02      THE COURT:  I think many times he has told us.
 03           It looks like you are looking at your report
 04 again to answer the question.
 05      THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 06      THE COURT:  All right.
 07      THE WITNESS:  Yes.  There was a small amount of tissue
 08 hemorrhage associated with that wound.
 09 by mr. hodgman:
 10      Q    And with regard to your indications to the
 11 diagram here, you are referring to the upper leftmost
 12 figure on People's 27 for identification; is that
 13 correct?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    Now, doctor, during the course of your
 16 autopsy, did you also observe a second incised wound
 17 below the larynx and parallel to the one you have just
 18 described?
 19      A    Yes.
 20      Q    Describe that for us, please.
 21      A    That was below the first wound.
 22           Referring to my notes.
 23           It was horizontally oriented and parallel to the
 24 first wound, 6 inches in length, starting on the left side
 25 of the neck.  It was superficial, involving the skin only;
 26 and it went around to the right side of the neck.
 27      Q    Did it angulate upwards?
 28      A    It went from the right side of the neck and,
 01 although it is not shown here, it then angulated upward
 02 towards another wound on the right side of the neck, to be
 03 described below.
 04      Q    Was this wound fatal in and of itself?
 05      A    No.  This wound was superficial; and I have
 06 indicated it involves -- it involved the skin -- it
 07 involves the skin only.  It was a superficial cutting
 08 wound.
 01      Q    And how would you characterize this wound in
 02 terms of being antemortem, perimortem or postmortem?
 03      A    I believe it to be antemortem, inasmuch as
 04 there was a small amount of visible dermal -- "dermal"
 05 meaning skin -- hemorrhage, when I first saw it.
 06      Q    Now, doctor, referring to the lower right-hand
 07 figure on People's 27 for identification, does that
 08 particular figure depict some evidence of injury to the
 09 right -- excuse me -- left side of Mr. Goldman's neck
 10 and head that you observed during the course of your
 11 autopsy?
 12      A    Yes, it does.
 13      Q    Now, using your pointer, sir, and taking the
 14 lowermost wound, would you describe what you found with
 15 regard to that wound when you conducted your autopsy
 16 upon Mr. Goldman's body.
 17      A    Well, there was a large gaping sharp force
 18 injury on the left side of the neck, 3 inches in length,
 19 which I am pointing to right here.
 20      Q    Indicating the lowermost apparent sharp force
 21 wound in red on the diagram; is that correct?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    Now, would you tell us something about the
 24 wound path of that particular wound.
 25      A    Okay.   Of course, I'm refreshing my memory.
 26           It was on the left side of the neck, began at
 27 the level of the mid larynx, cut through the
 28 sternocleidomastoid muscle, and it went through the skin
 01 and the muscle with bleeding along the path.
 02           And basically it severed the left internal
 03 jugular vein.   There was extensive bleeding in the
 04 adjacent tissue.   And I determined that to be the
 05 pathway of that wound.
 06      Q    Did that wound transect or severe any major
 07 blood vessels?
 08      A    Yes.   As I stated, it transected the left
 09 internal jugular vein.
 10      Q    Now, there was a second wound to the left side
 11 of Mr. Goldman's head; is that correct?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    Describe that for us, please, in brief.
 14      A    This -- the second wound was above it, behind
 15 the left ear.  It was a gaping wound, 2 inches in
 16 length.
 17           The lower borders were irregular or ragged.
 18 As I mentioned, it was 2 inches in length.
 19           It -- along the tissue plains it appeared to
 20 be separated by the lower one by the approximate
 21 distance of 4 inches, so those two wounds shared common
 22 areas of -- common areas of injury.
 23      Q    Are you saying that the two wound paths
 24 intersected with regard to those two wounds?
 25      A    Yes.   They met.
 26           They met deep in the -- along the tissue
 27 plains, so basically you can say they communicated or
 28 they shared common areas of injury.
 01      Q    Taking those two wounds together, doctor, are
 02 they fatal wounds?   Either one or both or together?
 03 Also taking into consideration that the jugular vein on
 04 that side was severed.
 05      A    Well, one or together -- either or together,
 06 it's a fatal injury because of the severing of the left
 07 internal jugular vein.
 08      Q    And, doctor, with regard to those two wounds,
 09 were they antemortem, perimortem or postmortem?
 10      A    As I've described, there was extensive
 11 hemorrhage along the wound path and in the tissue
 12 spaces.
 13      Q    Now doctor, I realize that there are more
 14 lesser wounds that were not indicated on your diagram,
 15 but I would like to move ahead now to the lower
 16 left-hand figure on People's 27 for identification.
 17           And, sir, you observed during the course of
 18 your autopsy five wounds to the right side of
 19 Mr. Goldman's face; is that correct?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    And it appears that we have four of those five
 22 wounds marked in red on that lower left-hand figure on
 23 People's 27 for identification; is that correct?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    Now would you, in brief, describe those wounds
 26 for us, sir.
 27      A    Okay.   Referring to my notes, these were
 28 superficial cuts varying in orientation, involving the
 01 skin of the right cheek, and they varied from
 02 approximately 1/2 to 1 inch in maximal length.
 03      Q    And these five wounds, sir, were not fatal; is
 04 that correct, in and of themselves?
 05      A    Correction.
 06           Yes.   I said 1/2.  It's -- okay.
 07           Referring to my protocol, they were small
 08 cuts.   They varied from 1/4 inch in length to 5/8's of
 09 an inch in length.   The superficial cuts on the right
 10 side of the check.
 11      Q    All to the right side of the cheek; is that
 12 correct?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    And were all of those antemortem wounds as far
 15 as you could determine?
 16      A    Yes, they were.
 17      Q    Doctor, during the course of your autopsy, you
 18 observed injury to the right side of Mr. Goldman's neck,
 19 did you not?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, I have another diagram
 22 pertaining to Mr. Goldman's autopsy.   It depicts wounds
 23 to the right side of the neck.
 24           May that be People's next in order, 28.
 25      THE COURT:  Yes.
 27      Q    Now Dr. Golden, with regard to the lower
 28 left-hand figure depicted on People's 28 for
 01 identification  --
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    -- you observed some wounds in that area of
 04 Mr. Goldman's body; is that correct?
 05      A    Yes, I did.
 06      Q    Would you describe those wounds for us,
 07 please.
 08      A    All right.
 09           And referring to the report and the addendum.
 10           On the right side of the neck, 3 inches below
 11 the exterioral auditory canal there was a stab
 12 wound 5/8's of an inch in length, and it -- one end was
 13 pointed, the other end was Y-shaped or forked.
 14           And basically the wound path was through the
 15 skin, subcutaneous tissue; did not strike a major artery
 16 or vein; and this wound connected or shared common area
 17 of injury with another wound on the right side of the
 18 neck above it, which was behind -- below and behind the
 19 right ear and behind the sternocleidomastoid muscle.
 20 And that was a 2-inch long wound with a 1-inch long
 21 superficial cut of the skin above it.
 22           And as I indicate here, the wound that I've
 23 just described, the deeper wound, intersected the
 24 superficial cut of the front of the neck which we
 25 described earlier, which went around to the right side
 26 and angled upward and intersected that wound.
 27           So that's why it has that peculiar
 28 configuration there.
 01      Q    Sir, when you're referring to that superficial
 02 incised wound, that was to a previous diagram, what
 03 appeared to be a superficial incised cut which moved
 04 across, above the larynx and then intersected with this
 05 wound as depicted on People's 28; is that correct?
 06      A    That's correct.
 07      Q    Now Dr. Golden, with regard to these wounds
 08 that you've just described in your testimony, were these
 09 wounds fatal in and of themselves?
 10      A    All that I've described on the right side of
 11 the neck were not fatal as I've described earlier.
 12           No major artery or vein was cut or incised,
 13 and that includes the jugular and the common carotid --
 14 and the carotid artery.
 15      Q    Dr. Golden, although not depicted on this
 16 particular diagram, did you observe abrasions to the
 17 right side of Mr. Goldman's face?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    And in brief, describe what you observed with
 20 regard to the pattern of abrasions that you observed.
 21      A    Well, these are not depicted, so I'll have to
 22 refer to my notes, particularly on the addendum.
 23           There are multiple abrasions or scrapes on the
 24 right side of the face extending from the -- basically
 25 extending from the temporal region, down to the right
 26 cheek, and from the -- going as far forward as the
 27 eyelid and back to the front of the ear.
 28           Basically the area covered was 4 1/2 by 2 1/2
 01 inches.   And they were linear, some diagonally
 02 oriented, some vertically.
 03           The area that they covered, namely the
 04 abrasions, also circumscribed the area of the
 05 superficial cutting wounds of the right cheek that I
 06 described earlier.
 07      Q    Those are the five cutting wounds you've
 08 testified to?
 09      A    Yes.
 10           So it had two things visible there:  The
 11 multiple abrasions on the cheek, and then the
 12 circumscribed area which contained the cutting wounds,
 13 the superficial cutting wounds.
 14      Q    And sir, with reference to the diagram
 15 People's 28 for identification, you're indicating an
 16 area on the figure in the lower left-hand side; is that
 17 correct?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    Now with regard to those abrasions, would you
 20 characterize those abrasions as antemortem, perimortem
 21 or postmortem?
 22      A    I would not characterize them as postmortem.
 23 They appeared to be perimortem based on their color,
 24 coloration.
 25      Q    And again, perimortem meaning?
 26      A    At about the time of death, which could be
 27 shortly before, at the time of, or shortly thereafter.
 28      Q    Now, doctor, during the course of your
 01 autopsy, you observed a number of various small incised
 02 wounds to the right and left ears of Mr. Goldman; is
 03 that correct?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    And did you also observe injuries to the scalp
 06 of Ronald Goldman?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, I have another diagram
 09 pertaining to Mr. Goldman's autopsy.
 10           May that be People's 29 for identification?
 11      THE COURT:  Yes.
 13      Q    Dr. Golden, with reference to People's 29 for
 14 identification, does that diagram, in particular the
 15 figure in the lower right-hand corner, depict the
 16 approximate locations of scalp wounds you observed on
 17 Mr. Goldman's head during the course of your autopsy?
 18      A    Yes, it does.
 19      Q    Were each of those wounds nonfatal?
 20      A    Yes, that's correct.
 21      Q    And did they all appear to be antemortem in
 22 nature?
 23      A    Yes, they did.
 24      Q    And with regard to the dimensions of the
 25 wounds -- I withdraw that.
 26           Now Dr. Golden, during the course of your
 27 autopsy, you also observed what appeared to be stab
 28 wounds to the torso of Mr. Goldman's body; is that
 01 correct?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, I have here another
 04 diagram depicting apparent stab wounds to the right side
 05 of the torso and the left thigh.
 06           May that be People's 30 for identification?
 07      THE COURT:  Yes.
 09      Q    Dr. Golden, with reference to People's 30 for
 10 identification, and a figure that appears at the
 11 left-hand side of the diagram, are there depicted the
 12 approximate locations of three stab or cutting wounds
 13 that you observed on Mr. Goldman's body during the
 14 autopsy that you performed?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    And again, these wounds are numbered for
 17 reference purposes only and do not necessarily mean the
 18 order in which they were inflicted; is that correct?
 19      A    That's correct.
 20      Q    And Dr. Golden, starting with wound number 1,
 21 as indicated on People's 30 for identification, would
 22 you describe that wound for us, please.
 23      A    That depicts a stab wound on the right side of
 24 the chest.
 25           Excuse me.   Did you want a description of
 26 each -- of each wound, or just what they are?
 27      Q    I would like a description of each wound,
 28 starting with the wound that you have numbered as
 01 number 1.
 02      A    All right.
 03           That was a stab wound on the right side of the
 04 chest, 5/8's of an inch in length, with a rounded or
 05 blunted on the lower end, and this wound went into the
 06 chest through the right seventh rib into the chest
 07 cavity.
 08           There was approximately 100, 200 M.L. of blood
 09 in the chest cavity, and further dissection disclosed
 10 that the wound perforated the right lung and continued
 11 forward and terminated -- or the wound path terminated
 12 on the front of the rib cage where I found a 3/4 inch
 13 cut on the posterior aspect or back of the right fourth
 14 rib.
 15           So after estimating the total length of the
 16 wound path, it was 4 inches.
 17      Q    Now, doctor, when you say, "M.L.," you're
 18 referring to milliliters, are you not?
 19      A    Yes.
 20      Q    Was the length of this particular wound
 21 approximately 5/8's of an inch?
 22      A    The measurement on the skin was 5/8's of an
 23 inch, yes.
 24      Q    And in your opinion, sir, was this wound
 25 consistent with having been inflicted by a single-edge
 26 knife?
 27      A    Yes.   This one had the configuration of a
 28 single -- of a single-edged blade.   It had the -- the
 01 wound had a blunt or squared-off end and a pointer or
 02 tapered end.
 03      Q    Was this a fatal wound, doctor?
 04      A    This wound perforated the lung and caused
 05 hemorrhage into the right chest cavity and is considered
 06 a fatal wound.
 07           It should also be known that there was another
 08 stab wound also into the right side of the chest which
 09 also injured the lung.
 10      Q    We're going to talk about that second stab
 11 wound in just a second, doctor.
 12           Just one more question with regard to stab
 13 wound number 1.
 14           Was it an antemortem wound, in your opinion?
 15      A    Yes.   Yes, it was.
 16      Q    Now doctor, with reference to the stab wound
 17 that you have numbered as stab wound number 2 on the
 18 right side of Mr. Goldman's body, would you describe
 19 that wound for us, please.
 20      A    That was on the right side of the chest,
 21 actually, close to stab wound number 1.   And this wound
 22 measured 1 1/2 inches in length on the skin, diagonally
 23 oriented.
 24           This also had the characteristic of a dull or
 25 blunted and pointer or tapered end, which again is
 26 consistent with a single edged blade.
 27           And this wound also penetrated the chest
 28 through the rib cage.   And this wound path was close to
 01 the wound past of stab wound number 1, with bleeding
 02 along the wound path, and it also went through the lower
 03 part of the right lung, creating a perforating injury.
 04           And again, there was hemorrhage along the
 05 wound path and the blood in the plural cavity.
 06      Q    Indicating that this was a wound inflicted
 07 while Mr. Goldman was alive; isn't that right?
 08      A    Yes.
 09      Q    Was this wound fatal?
 10      A    Yes.   Because of the perforation of the lung
 11 and the associated hemothorax.
 12      Q    Now, doctor, there is a third wound that is
 13 depicted on the figure on the left-hand side of
 14 People's 30 for identification.
 15           That was a stab wound to the right flank, was
 16 it not?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    And that had a length of approximately 3/8's
 19 inches and a depth of penetration only into the skin and
 20 underlying tissue; is that correct?
 21      A    Yes.   That was a superficial wound.   Did not
 22 penetrate the chest or abdomen.
 23      Q    Was it an antemortem wound, in your opinion?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    Doctor, with regard to the figure at the right
 26 side of the diagram marked People's 30 for
 27 identification, there appears to be a wound to the left
 28 thigh indicated on the diagram; is that correct?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    And did you detect and observe such a wound
 03 upon the body of Ronald Goldman when you performed the
 04 autopsy?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    And would you describe that wound, please.
 07      A    This was a stab wound of the lateral outside
 08 aspect of the left thigh, 2 1/8 inches in length, and
 09 there was a blunt or dull end seen, 1/32 of an inch, and
 10 the wound path was through the skin, into the muscle of
 11 the thigh, with bleeding along the wound path.   The
 12 depth of penetration was approximately 3 dash 3 1/2
 13 inches.
 14      Q    Meaning 3 to 3 1/2 inches?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    And from your testimony, sir, I would infer
 17 that this was a wound that you would characterize as
 18 antemortem; is that correct?
 19      A    Yes.   There was bleeding along the wound path
 20 and the tissue spaces, yes.
 21      Q    With regard to what you observed in connection
 22 with this particular wound, would you characterize this
 23 wound as one consistent with having been inflicted by a
 24 single-edged knife?
 25      A    Now, this wound did have the characteristic
 26 rounded or dull end that would be characteristic of a
 27 single-edged blade, yes, it would.
 28      Q    Doctor, during the course of the autopsy
 01 involving Mr. Goldman's body, you detected a wound to
 02 the left-side abdomen of Mr. Goldman, did you not?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      MR. HODGMAN:  And, Your Honor, I have here one last
 05 diagram depicting the described wound to the left side
 06 abdomen of Mr. Goldman.
 07           May this be 31 for identification?
 08      THE COURT:  Yes.
 10      Q    Doctor, with reference to the wound as
 11 depicted in the right most figure on this diagram of
 12 People's 31 for identification, would you describe that
 13 wound for us, please.
 14      A    Okay.   And I'm referring to my report to
 15 refresh my recollection.
 16           This is a stab wound of the left flank, below
 17 the rib cage, and it was 3/4 of an inch in length.
 18           This wound did not have a blunt or squared-off
 19 end.   It was -- one end was pointed or tapered, the
 20 opposite end was forked or split.
 21           And then going through this, this wound
 22 penetrated into the body wall and passed through the
 23 muscle, the iliopsoas muscle, with bleeding along the
 24 way.
 25           And then going from back to front, the wound
 26 path ended in the abdominal aorta where two perforating
 27 stab wounds were evident.
 28           So the wound terminated in the abdominal area
 01 with two perforating wounds.
 02      Q    In other words, the abdominal aorta was
 03 perforated; is that correct?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    What was the apparent depth of the wound?
 06      A    Measured from the outside of the body wall to
 07 the termination in the aorta was approximately 5 1/2
 08 inches.
 09      Q    Was this wound fatal in and of itself?
 10      A    Yes.   This perforated the aorta.   There was
 11 hemorrhage along the wound path and there was bleeding
 12 inside the body cavity, the peritoneal cavity.
 13      Q    Doctor, not depicted on any diagram identified
 14 thus far, was there a stab wound to the upper right
 15 chest over the right clavicle?   Do you recall that one?
 16      A    Yes.   I'm -- yes.   It's not on this
 17 diagram.   It's in my report.
 18      Q    And that was a superficial wound.
 19      A    This was a superficially oriented wound,
 20 1/2 inch in length, involving the skin, subcutaneous
 21 tissue.
 22           Again, it was split or forked on one end,
 23 pointer or tapered on the other end, with a small amount
 24 of hemorrhage.
 25           Again, cannot tell from this wound whether it
 26 was caused by a single or double-edged blade.
 27      Q    You were able to determine, were you not, that
 28 this was an antemortem wound?
 01      A    Yes.   There was a small amount of fresh
 02 bleeding associated, so it was an antemortem wound.
 03      Q    Dr. Golden, earlier in your testimony today,
 04 you have described for us what are known as defense
 05 wounds.
 06           Did you see any indicia of defense wounds on
 07 Mr. Goldman's body?
 08      A    Yes.
 09      Q    In general, would you describe what you
 10 observed in that regard.
 11      A    He had cut -- he had cutting wounds on the
 12 right hand and on the left hand.
 13           And specifically, there were cutting wounds on
 14 the palm of the right hand, the base of the index
 15 finger; palmar surface of the right hand near the web of
 16 the thumb; palmar surface of the left hand at the web of
 17 the thumb.
 18           And on the addendum report, specifically on
 19 the palmar surface of the left hand there was a
 20 superficial cutting wound.
 21           So I believe that characterizes the main sharp
 22 force or cutting injuries on his hands.
 23      MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, I have here two
 24 photographs.
 25           People's 29 for identification, with the
 26 Court's permission, depicts the palms  --
 27      THE COURT:  I'm sorry, People's 29?   We're up
 28 to 31.
 01      MR. HODGMAN:  I'm sorry, 32.   Yes.
 02           And that photograph bears a coroner's tag and
 03 appears to depict the right palm of the decedent.
 04           And then People's 33 for identification,
 05 Your Honor, similar photograph depicting what appears to
 06 be the left palm of the decedent Ronald Goldman.
 07           It, too, also bears a coroner's evidence tag
 08 which corresponds to the case number assigned to
 09 Mr. Goldman's autopsy.
 10           May these be so marked for identification?
 11      THE COURT:  Yes.
 13      Q    Dr. Golden, I'm going to hand you first
 14 People's 32 for identification, and ask that you observe
 15 that in discreet fashion.
 16           Sir, does that photograph depict the shaper
 17 incised wounds that you have described in your testimony
 18 as defense wounds to the right palm of Mr. Goldman's
 19 hand?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    Was that a photo taken during Mr. Goldman's
 22 autopsy?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    With regard to People's 33 for identification,
 25 would you tell us what that depicts, sir?   That is the
 26 photograph that is now face down on the witness stand
 27 before you.
 28           What does that photograph depict, sir?
 01      A    That is the left hand of the decedent, palmar
 02 surface.
 03      Q    Does that photograph truly and accurately
 04 depict the defense wounds to the left palm of
 05 Mr. Goldman's hands that you have described thus far in
 06 your testimony?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    Dr. Golden, with respect to the wounds
 09 depicted in People's 32 and 33, did you also observe
 10 what might be called defense wounds to the back of
 11 Mr. Goldman's hands as well as to his forearms?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    And in general as in brief, how would you
 14 characterize those wounds?
 15      A    Basically there are multiple abrasions
 16 involving the forearm, including the outer or lateral
 17 aspect of the forearm, where there are multiple
 18 abrasions.   That means scratches.   Some were not
 19 scratches.   They were irregular in configuration.
 20           On the top of the hand there were fresh
 21 bruises, abrasions on the knuckles, and I went into
 22 detail on which fingers and which knuckles.
 23           There are abrasions, bruises on various
 24 knuckles and fingers of the right hand.
 25           On the top or dorsal surface of the left hand
 26 there were multiple red-brown abrasions involving the
 27 knuckles of the index finger, and then there were
 28 multiple irregularly configured abrasions on the knuckle
 01 of the middle finger.
 02           There was also a fresh bruise about 1 1/4
 03 or 1 1/2 inches on the top of the left hand adjacent to
 04 the wrist, and fresh bruises on the ulnar surface of the
 05 left wrist, which means on the -- I guess you'd say the
 06 inner surface of the left wrist.
 07           And on the addendum report there were a few
 08 additional abrasions on the fingers.   The fingers of
 09 the left hand:  middle finger, left-hand fifth finger,
 10 and on the distal portion of the left thumb.
 11           So basically there were a number of abrasions
 12 and bruises, many on the top of the knuckles of the
 13 fingers and on top of the hand.
 14      Q    All compatible with defense wounds, in your
 15 opinion?
 16      A    Well, yes.   Or arising during a struggle.
 17      Q    Dr. Golden, at the conclusion of your autopsy,
 18 did you form an opinion as to the cause of Ronald
 19 Goldman's death?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    And what was your opinion?
 22      A    He died as a result of multiple sharp force
 23 injuries, which included the cutting wound of the left
 24 side of the neck, which severed or transected the left
 25 internal jugular vein; and the two stab wounds of the
 26 right side of the chest, which perforated the thorax and
 27 right lung; and the stab wound of the left side of the
 28 abdomen, which perforated the abdominal aorta.
 01      Q    A few more questions, sir.
 02           If you may.
 03      THE COURT:  Yes.
 05      Q    Dr. Golden, during each of these autopsies,
 06 were the investigating officers from the Los Angeles
 07 Police Department present?
 08      A    Yes.
 09      Q    And by that I mean, specifically were
 10 detectives Phil Vannatter and Tom Lange present during
 11 each of the autopsies?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    Sir, with regard to the autopsy performed on
 14 Nicole Brown Simpson's body, did you take a blood sample
 15 for purposes of serological study?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    And was that particular blood sample placed in
 18 a test tube bearing Nicole Brown Simpson's name and the
 19 applicable coroner's case number?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    Was the same procedure followed with regard to
 22 the taking of a blood sample from Ronald Goldman's body?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    And were those blood samples later delivered
 25 into the custody of detective Vannatter?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    Mr. -- or Dr. Golden, on June the 15th, 1994,
 28 were you visited at the Los Angeles County Coroner's
 01 Office by detective Phil Vannatter?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    On that date, sir, did Detective Vannatter
 04 show you a knife?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    Describe what you recall about the knife that
 07 was shown to you by Detective Vannatter.
 08      A    It was a folding knife with a blade
 09 approximately six inches long.
 10      Q    And describe what happened when Detective
 11 Vannatter showed you that knife.
 12      A    Well, he wanted to know if that knife was
 13 consistent or compatible with the wounds that I saw
 14 inflicted on either individual, and whether it was
 15 compatible with some of the wounds inflicted on either
 16 individual.
 17      Q    And did you provide Detective Vannatter with
 18 an answer?
 19      A    I said it could have, yes, I did.
 20      Q    And what was your answer?
 21      A    I said it could have been -- it could have
 22 been the weapon, yes, that inflicted some of the wounds.
 23      Q    Now, you examined the knife; is that correct?
 24      A    Cursorily, yes.   I measured the length and
 25 the width of the blade.
 26      Q    Now, is your opinion that a knife such as that
 27 could have inflicted the wounds received by Nicole Brown
 28 Simpson and Ronald Goldman definitive, or would you have
 01 like to have done something more with regard to
 02 examination of the knife to determine more precisely?
 03      A    It was not definitive.   I would like to do a
 04 lot more.
 05      Q    Like what?
 06      A    Well, make detailed measurements of the blade,
 07 correlating each wound that I described, specifically
 08 each stab wound that I described in my protocol, with
 09 measurements of the blade of the instrument.
 10      Q    To date, sir, have you had the opportunity to
 11 conduct such an examination?
 12      A    No, I haven't.
 13      Q    So your opinion then is, with regard to the
 14 knife displayed to you by detective Vannatter, that it
 15 could have inflicted the wounds upon Mr. Goldman's body
 16 and upon Nicole Brown Simpson's body, but not
 17 necessarily so; is that correct?
 18      A    Not necessarily so.   To be scientific, I
 19 would have to get my little white ruler out that I use
 20 for measuring the wounds on the body and do the same
 21 thing on the knife.
 22      MR. HODGMAN:  May I have a moment, Your Honor?
 23      THE COURT:  Yes.
 24      MR. HODGMAN:  No further questions.
 25      THE COURT:  It is about five minutes to 12:00.
 26           Which of you is going to cross-examine?
 27      MR. SHAPIRO:  I am, Your Honor.
 28      THE COURT:  Okay.   I think we'll break at this
 01 point, and we'll start with cross-examination at 1:30.
 02           I would like to see counsel briefly in
 03 chambers.
 07   (At 11:55 a.m., a recess was taken until 1:30 p.m.)
 11         (Proceedings were had in chambers, which
 12             were transcribed in Volume 12-A,
 13            and ordered sealed by the court.)
 04                                        )  no. BA097211
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06             VS.                        )
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                                        )
 10                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 12                        )   SS
 22           DATED THIS 8th DAY OF July, 1994.
 24                _____________________________________
 24                      ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 25                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 27                _____________________________________
 27                       ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
 28                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 04                                        )
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06                 VS.                    )   VOLUME 12-A
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 13                   FRIDAY, JULY 8, 1994
 16                              WILLIAM HODGMAN
 17                              DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
 19                              GERALD UELMEN
 20                              PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
 26                              ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 27                              OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 01                 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
 02                   Friday, July 8, 1994
 03                        12:00 Noon
 04                          -O0O-
 06    (The following proceedings were had in chambers.)
 08      THE COURT:  We're in chambers with counsel for both
 09 sides.
 10           I only wanted to just get a feel for how much
 11 longer we have.
 12           Do you know how long your cross-examination is
 13 going to be approximately?
 14      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.   I would say less than an hour.
 15      THE COURT:  Okay.   And this is your last witness,
 16 I assume?
 17      MS. CLARK:  Yes.
 18      THE COURT:  I don't expect you're going to present
 19 an affirmative defense?
 20      MR. SHAPIRO:  We're going to ask for a stipulation
 21 regarding the phone records that were presented in open
 22 court from the phone call from Mrs. Brown to Nicole,
 23 which I believe was at 10:17.
 24      THE COURT:  And is there -- is there going to be a
 25 problem with that?
 26      MS. CLARK:  If that's what the records say, there
 27 will be no problem with that.
 28           But which record?
 01      MR. SHAPIRO:  Phone records from the telephone
 02 company that you gave us.
 03      MS. CLARK:  I'm going to have to locate it.   I'll
 04 locate it and make sure.
 05      THE COURT:  With reference to defense exhibits that
 06 were received for purposes of the motion only, do you
 07 wish to offer any of those -- or will you be offering
 08 any of those with regard to the case?
 09      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, yes.   We'll be offering all of
 10 them.
 11      THE COURT:  Okay.   Let's see if there's anything
 12 else.
 13      MS. CLARK:  Counsel, just so I can make sure.
 14           You're saying it was a phone call from Nicole
 15 Brown to her mother or from the mother to Nicole?
 16      MR. SHAPIRO:  From the mother to Nicole.
 17      THE COURT:  Okay.   Then I guess that's it.   I
 18 just wanted to know where we stood.
 19           You can transcribe this, but until I'm sure
 20 about the stipulation, then this is sealed.
 21           If the stipulation is agreed to by everyone,
 22 then I don't have any problem with this portion of the
 23 transcript being released.
 24           Okay.
 25           See you at 1:30.
 26      MR. HODGMAN:  See you then, Your Honor.
 28          (Proceedings concluded at 12:02 p.m.)
 04                                        )  no. BA097211
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06             VS.                        )
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                                        )
 10                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 12                        )   SS
 22           DATED THIS 8th DAY OF July, 1994.
 25                _____________________________________
 26                      ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 26                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 04                                        )
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06                 VS.                    )   VOLUME 13
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 13                    FRIDAY, JULY 8, 1994
 16                              WILLIAM HODGMAN
 17                              DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
 19                              GERALD UELMEN
 20                              PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
 26                              ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 27                              ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
 27                              OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
 01                        I N D E X
 01                                                     VOIR
 03 IRWIN L. GOLDEN                 3     28
 05                          -O0O-
 06                         EXHIBITS
 07 PEOPLE'S EXHIBITS:                           IN EVIDENCE
 08  1 - BOARD OF FOUR PHOTOS                         29
 09  2 - PHOTO                                        29
 10  3 - PHOTO                                        29
 11  5 - PHOTO                                        29
 12  6 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                             29
 13  7 - DIAGRAM                                      29
 14  8 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                             29
 15  9 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                             29
 16 10 - PHOTO                                        29
 17 11 - PHOTO                                        29
 18 12 - PHOTO                                        29
 19 13 - PHOTO                                        29
 20 14 - PHOTO                                        29
 21 15 - PHOTO                                        29
 22 16 - PHOTO                                        29
 23 17 - PHOTO                                        29
 24 18 - PHOTO                                        29
 25 19 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                             29
 26 20 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                             29
 27 21 - PHOTO                                        29
 01                  I N D E X (CONTINUED)
 02 22 - PHOTO                                        29
 03 23 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                             29
 04 24 - CHART                                        29
 05 25 - DIAGRAM                                      29
 06 26 - DIAGRAM                                      29
 07 27 - DIAGRAM                                      29
 08 28 - DIAGRAM                                      29
 09 29 - DIAGRAM                                      29
 10 30 - DIAGRAM                                      29
 11 31 - DIAGRAM                                      29
 12 32 - PHOTO                                        29
 13 33 - PHOTO                                        29
 16 A - ARCHITECT'S RENDERING                         30
 17 B - PHOTO                                         30
 18 C - PHOTO                                         30
 19 D - PHOTO                                         30
 20 F - SERIES OF PHOTOS                              30
 01       Los Angeles, California; Friday, July 8, 1994
 02                         1:30 p.m.
 03                           -o0o-
 05                      IRWIN L. GOLDEN,
 06 having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand, was
 07 examined and testified further as follows:
 08      THE COURT:  We are once again on the record in the
 09 case of people v. Simpson.  The defendant is present
 10 with counsel.  The people are represented.  Dr. Golden
 11 is on the witness stand.
 12           I remind you, sir, you remain under oath.
 13           Mr. Shapiro.
 14      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you very much, your Honor.
 16                     CROSS-EXAMINATION
 19      Q    Good afternoon, doctor.
 20      A    Good afternoon.
 21      Q    Doctor, I was presented this morning with a
 22 three-quarter page form that indicates "curriculum vitae";
 23 and it's dated may of '94.
 24           Is this your current resume?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    And is it up to date?
 27      A    I believe so.
 28      Q    I notice in here that it indicates - there is a
 01 space for current academic appointments, and it is blank.
 02           During your tenure, have you had any academic
 03 appointments?
 04      A    No.
 05      Q    And it indicates in here "current medical staff
 06 appointments," and it is blank.
 07           During your tenure, have you had any medical
 08 staff appointments?
 09      A    No.
 10      Q    Then the next thing that is listed is the
 11 concise summary of your role in the forensic pathology
 12 program; and it lists three things, that you perform
 13 autopsies, courtroom testimony and lecturer.
 14           Does that cover the gamut of the summary of
 15 your role as a forensic pathologist?
 16      A    I am trying to think if there is anything I
 17 have omitted.
 18           Basically so, yes, unless there are some things I
 19 haven't recollected.
 20           Basically, I am a deputy medical examiner and
 21 forensic pathologist.
 22      Q    You talked before about your being a physician.
 23           Have you ever practiced medicine?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    Now, you indicated you are a lecturer.
 26           What types of lectures do you give and to whom?
 27      A    That would be intramural lectures at the
 28 department of coroner.
 01      Q    I'm sorry?  I didn't hear you.
 02      A    That would be intramural, or interdepartment,
 03 lectures at the department of coroner.
 04      Q    So you talk to your colleagues?
 05      A    That would be -- yes, yes.
 06      Q    And courtroom testimony, you have told us, I
 07 believe, you have testified approximately 700 times?
 08      A    Approximately, yes.
 09      Q    And how many of those 700 times have you been
 10 called as a witness for the prosecution?
 11      A    Many times.  Hundreds of times.
 12      Q    How many of those times have you been called as a
 13 witness for the defense?
 14      A    I don't have the tally.
 15           In civil cases I could be called by either the
 16 plaintiffs or the defendants.  I wouldn't know -- i have
 17 testified in civil cases; But in those instances, I am not
 18 sure whether it has been the plaintiffs or the defendants.
 19           In most of the criminal -- in most of the
 20 criminal cases, the prosecution calls me as a witness but
 21 not invariably because -- I won't say "frequently" but
 22 occasionally the defense counsel wants -- wants us called
 23 as a witness rather than accepting a stipulation.
 24      Q    Have you testified in any state as an expert
 25 witness other than California?
 26      A    Not as a -- no, I have not.
 27      Q    Have you testified in any other city -- or any
 28 county other than Los Angeles county as a forensic
 01 pathologist, as an expert?
 02      A    Well, as a medical examiner, some of my cases
 03 have been in other counties.  I am sure about
 04 San Bernardino county.  I have been in santa barbara
 05 County -- i have been called as a witness in santa barbara
 06 county.  it pertained to a department of coroner case,
 07 But -- it was a civil case, and I -- either the plaintiff
 08 or the defendant called me.  the reason I went there was
 09 not as a consultant but because the decedent came under our
 10 jurisdiction.
 11           I did testify in an L.A. civil case in santa
 12 barbara county, civil case in San Bernardino county; but I
 13 would be available in a criminal case in any county in
 14 California.
 15      Q    Also on your curriculum vitae, you have presented
 16 a list of publications from the last five years; and you
 17 have included yourself as a co-author, in 1989, of a
 18 four-page magazine article dealing with pneumonia in
 19 infants.
 20           Is that the extent of your publications?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    Have you reviewed the general texts in the
 23 field for determining time of death?
 24      A    Excuse me?  Did you say "text" or "texts"?
 25      Q    "Texts"; books.
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    And what books have you relied upon in forming
 28 opinions as to the time of death?
 01      A    I have read forensic pathology textbooks, and
 02 these would be the standard texts:  Gradwall's forensic
 03 medicine -- comma -- Spitz and Fisher's medicolegal
 04 investigation of death, latest edition; Adleson's pathology
 05 of homicide; Demayo's text on forensic pathology; and
 06 Knight's -- K-n-i-g-h-t -- textbook on forensic
 07 pathology.
 08           These are all standard references available to
 09 me at the department of coroner.
 10      Q    And in reviewing those sources, would you
 11 agree that the following factors are to be considered in
 12 determining time of death:  first, rigor mortis?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    second, lividity?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    Third, temperature change?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    Fourth, digestion in the stomach?
 19      A    Yes.
 20      Q    And, fifth, eye fluids?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    Anything else you would like to add to that list?
 23      A    Eyewitness.
 24      Q    Eyewitness.
 25           Okay.  That would be six.
 26           Anything else?
 27      A    No.  I think that covers it.
 28      Q    And would you say that one of the important roles
 01 of your job as a deputy medical examiner is to ascertain
 02 the time of death in a homicide?
 03      A    I would say to give -- to help determine a
 04 range of the time of death, yes.
 05      Q    And there are other people who you work with in
 06 forming those conclusions that are part of the coroner's
 07 office; is that correct?
 08      A    Yes, that is.
 09      Q    And that would be a medical investigator?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    And a deputy coroner?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    Would there be other members of the team you
 14 would rely on for that type of information?
 15      A    No.  The deputy coroner, the coroner investigator
 16 would be our eyes and ears.
 17      Q    And those people have also filed reports that you
 18 have included as part of what you call the autopsy report,
 19 or autopsy protocol; is that correct?
 20      A    Yes, that's correct.
 21      Q    And you reviewed their findings prior to
 22 testifying today?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    In reviewing their findings regarding nicole
 25 Simpson, were you informed that she was found and
 26 pronounced dead by a member of the Los Angeles fire
 27 department, engine 19 squad?
 28      A    Okay.  I guess -- I can't find the relevant
 01 page in my protocol here.
 02           Yes.  I found it.
 03      Q    Take your time.
 04      A    Yes.  LAFD, engine 19 -- pronounced by LAFD,
 05 engine 19.
 06      Q    And what was the time that the decedent
 07 Miss Brown was pronounced dead?
 08      MR. HODGMAN:  Objection, your Honor.  Calls for
 09 hearsay.
 10      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 11      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, may I be heard on that?
 12      THE COURT:  All right.
 13      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I -- first, I believe these are
 14 official records and part of the autopsy protocol which he
 15 has indicated; And if he has relied on these records in
 16 performing his opinion, he can testify to it.
 17           Second, hearsay is admissible at these
 18 proceedings.
 19      MR. HODGMAN:  If I may be heard, your Honor?
 20      THE COURT:  Yes.
 21      MR. HODGMAN:  First of all, the people have
 22 elicited no opinion with regard to time of death, nor do
 23 we intend to.  We have an independent factual basis for
 24 that.  So there is no foundational aspect to this.
 25           Second of all, it is complete hearsay.  There is
 26 information in a report.  And counsel has the burden of
 27 establishing this is an official record.  And it is hearsay
 28 upon hearsay and, hence, still inadmissible.
 01      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, if the people are going
 02 to contend a case report from the county coroner as part
 03 of an autopsy report is not an official record, we will
 04 take the time to establish the foundation.
 05      THE COURT:  At this point it is hearsay; and the
 06 witness not being a peace officer, there is no exception to
 07 his being able to relate hearsay.
 08           At this point the objection is sustained.
 10      Q    In forming any conclusions or opinions in this
 11 case, did you at all consider the time the decedent nicole
 12 Simpson brown was pronounced dead?
 13      MR. HODGMAN:  Objection, your Honor.  No foundation in
 14 evidence thus far and ambiguous as to which conclusions and
 15 opinions that counsel is interested in.
 16      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 18      Q    You testified it was part of your job to
 19 determine the time of death.
 20      MR. HODGMAN:  Objection, your Honor.  Misstates the
 21 evidence.
 22      THE COURT:  Is that part of your job to determine the
 23 time of death?
 24      THE WITNESS:  Yes; Only I would use the term
 25 "estimate" or "range of time of death."
 26      THE COURT:  The objection is overruled.
 28      Q    And what factors did you use to estimate the
 01 time of death or range of time of death for the decedent
 02 Miss Brown?
 03      MR. HODGMAN:  Objection.  Misstates the evidence.
 04           This witness has not made an estimate as to
 05 time of death.
 06      THE COURT:  Well, we haven't heard of an estimate as
 07 to time of death; so it assumes facts not in evidence.
 09      Q    Have you made an estimate in your official
 10 reports, or has anyone from the coroner's office made an
 11 estimate, as to the time of death of the decedent
 12 Mrs. Brown?
 13      MR. HODGMAN:  Objection.  Compound.
 14      THE COURT:  Sustained as to someone other than this
 15 witness.
 16      MR. SHAPIRO:  I'm sorry?
 17      THE COURT:  It would be sustained as to whether
 18 someone other than this particular witness made an
 19 estimate.
 21      Q    Did you make an estimate of the time of death?
 22      A    There is no official estimate of the time of
 23 death.  There is nothing written down.
 24      Q    I am asking did you make an estimate.
 25           Did anybody ask you as the head person
 26 investigating this homicide to make an estimate as to the
 27 time of death?  Yes or no?
 28      MR. HODGMAN:  Objection.  That misstates the
 01 evidence.
 02           He is not the head person investigating this
 03 homicide.
 04      THE COURT:  I think we know what he means.
 05           Overruled.
 06           Has that been asked of you?
 07      THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 09      Q    Who asked that of you?
 10      A    My boss, Dr. Lakshmanan.
 11      Q    Did you give him an answer?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    What was your answer?
 14      A    My answer was --
 15      Q    Are you referring to something?
 16      A    No, no.
 17      Q    It looks like you are reading something to me.
 18           Maybe it would be simpler if you need to refer to
 19 Something -- if you could put that aside and if you need to
 20 refer to it, just ask us.  Would that work for you?
 21      A    Sure would.
 22      Q    OKAY.  Would you kindly put that aside.
 23           Now, would you tell us what you told your boss,
 24 Dr. Lakshmanan, regarding your estimate of the time of
 25 death of nicole brown.
 26      A    My estimate was based on the state of the gastric
 27 contents and the character of the gastric contents.  It was
 28 somewhere three to four hours after her last meal.
 01      Q    That was the only factor you relied upon out of
 02 the five or six factors that you listed?
 03      A    I haven't finished yet.
 04      Q    OH.  I'M sorry.  I didn't mean to interrupt you.
 05      A    Using that evidence along with the body
 06 temperature determinations, which were taken
 07 approximately 11 hours after the body was discovered, I
 08 used a formula, graphs to reach a conclusion that the
 09 range of the time of death was somewhere between 10 and
 10 15 hours prior to the time the investigator took the liver
 11 temperature determination.
 12      Q    You used two of the five criteria; is that
 13 correct?
 14      A    And --
 15      Q    OH.  You haven't finished yet.
 16      A    And I then considered the rigor mortis
 17 determination, which, at the time the investigator -- the
 18 time the investigator performed her determination, the body
 19 was in full Rigor -- If now I may pick up and look at page
 20 1 of the coroner's protocol -- The Rigor mortis was fixed
 21 and was -- was fully fixed.  So that also placed the time
 22 of death somewhere beyond 9 to 12 hours.  In other words,
 23 it was fully fixed at the time, which was probably known at
 24 the time of the pronouncement of death.
 25           livor mortis was also fixed, and Rigor mortis was
 26 fully established.
 27           So four of the measurements, or examinations,
 28 were performed.
 01      Q    Let's go through each one of those, if we
 02 might.
 03           Regarding rigor mortis, what time does the
 04 case report that you have just referred to indicate that
 05 an observation for rigor mortis was first done by
 06 somebody from your department?
 07      A    It was fully established -- you know, the
 08 interesting thing is the air and liver temperature times
 09 are given -- date and time.  The Rigor -- the livor and
 10 Rigor mortis statements do not have an exact date and time
 11 listed, but it is taken at or about the time the liver
 12 temperature is taken.
 13      Q    Which is what time?
 14      A    Well, on nicole brown Simpson, liver
 15 temperature was taken at 1050 hours on 6/13/94.
 16      Q    Would you agree that the closer you take --
 17 the closer that you make the observations of the four
 18 indications -- well, the three -- Let's not talk about
 19 stomach content -- the closer you make the three
 20 observations to the time of death, the better chance you
 21 will have of accurately establish parameters for time of
 22 death?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    And would you say that it is proper procedure if
 25 a decedent was found at approximately ten minutes after
 26 midnight to wait 10-1/2 hours to perform these temperature
 27 evaluations?
 28      MR. HODGMAN:  Objection.  Vague and ambiguous as to
 01 what is proper procedure.
 02      THE COURT:  Do you understand the question, doctor?
 03      THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 04      THE COURT:  Okay.  Then I am going to go ahead and let
 05 you answer.
 06      THE WITNESS:  The measurements are more accurate
 07 the closer to the actual time of death.
 09      Q    And are there people available from the coroner's
 10 office to make those measurements at the request of
 11 homicide detectives?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    Now, regarding the stomach contents, you say that
 14 was something important, that you used as a criteria for
 15 establishing the estimated time of death of the decedent
 16 nicole brown; is that correct?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    And I take it those stomach contents are
 19 materials that can be preserved for later analysis.  Is
 20 that correct?
 21      A    Can be, yes.
 22      Q    And, in fact, on the forms that you use, there
 23 is a check box for toxicological specimens collected;
 24 isn't that correct?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    Did you save the stomach contents?
 27      A    No.
 28      Q    Were you able to determine who died first, the
 01 decedent Goldman or the decedent brown?
 02      A    No.
 03      Q    Do you have an opinion as to the time of death of
 04 nicole Simpson?
 05      A    I can give you a range.
 06      Q    And what is that range?
 07      A    Somewhere between 9 o'clock and midnight.
 08      Q    Now, is there something in the report that
 09 indicates that one of your investigators had information
 10 from the mother of the decedent that she was alive at 11
 11 p.m.?
 12      MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, I am going to object now
 13 because counsel is attempting to elicit inadmissible and
 14 unreliable hearsay evidence.
 15      THE COURT:  I think it would be admissible only if
 16 the doctor relied upon it in formulating his opinion,
 17 and it would not be offered then for the truth of the
 18 matter but for the fact the doctor may have relied upon it.
 19 And I don't know whether he did or did not; and, therefore,
 20 until that foundation is established as to whether he
 21 relied upon that in forming his opinion, the objection will
 22 be sustained.
 23      MR. HODGMAN:  Yes.  I understand the court's ruling.
 24 And should it be permitted, it would be only for the
 25 limited purpose articulated by the court?
 26      THE COURT:  Correct.
 27      MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you.
 02      Q    Did you have any information from any
 03 investigator that is filed under a county of Los Angeles
 04 investigator's report for the department of the coroner
 05 regarding the last time somebody saw or spoke to nicole
 06 brown?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    What information did you have?
 09      A    Am I allowed to testify on that or --
 10      MR. HODGMAN:  I am going to object for lack of
 11 foundation because there is no indication yet that this
 12 witness relied upon that information, whatever it may
 13 be.
 14      THE COURT:  Yes.
 15           Mr. Shapiro, I think you need to establish that
 16 foundationally before I will allow that testimony to come
 17 in.
 18      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 19      Q    You previously testified you read all these
 20 reports; is that correct?
 21      A    Yes.  Not in exact detail, but I did look at
 22 them.
 23           In fact, some of these reports were preliminary,
 24 may not have been fully prepared, at the time I did the
 25 autopsy.
 26      Q    When was the report that's -- we are referring
 27 to, that has in the upper left-hand corner "no. 3,"
 28 prepared?
 01      A    Okay.
 02           The form no. 3, prepared by investigator
 03 Ratcliffe, was prepared 6/13/94.
 04      Q    Was that before or after your autopsy?
 05      A    6/13/94 should have been -- prepared before the
 06 autopsy.
 07      Q    Have you had enough time to prepare yourself to
 08 testify in this case today?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    Have you had enough time to review your reports?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    Do you think you would need some more time to
 13 prepare yourself adequately for testimony?
 14      MR. HODGMAN:  I object.  That is argumentative.
 15      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 17      Q    Is it your testimony that you did or did not
 18 consider the investigator's report before you have
 19 testified here today for any -- in any area?
 20      A    I did consider those parts of the
 21 investigator's report that I considered relevant to my
 22 testimony, and I have already testified about her
 23 measurements that she took.  That's the ones I have been
 24 asked about.
 25      Q    Is time of death relevant to your testimony?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    Is -- didn't you just say that eyewitnesses are
 28 very important in establishing time of death?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    Would you consider a mother talking to her
 03 daughter as being an eyewitness to when somebody was
 04 last alive?
 05      A    Well, I meant someone actually witnessing her
 06 death, as often happens when death is pronounced in a
 07 hospital.  We know the exact time of death.
 08      Q    What if somebody recorded the time of a telephone
 09 call?  Would that be of any help to you?
 10      MR. HODGMAN:  Objection, your Honor.  That calls
 11 for speculation.
 12      THE COURT:  Overruled.
 13           Can you answer that?
 14      THE WITNESS:  A telephone call to the decedent?
 15      THE COURT:  That is what you mean, isn't it,
 16 mr. Shapiro?
 17      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 18      THE COURT:  Yes.
 19      THE WITNESS:  Yes.  That would be useful.
 21      Q    Is there anything that was done by anyone from
 22 the coroner's office to try to ascertain that?
 23      MR. HODGMAN:  Objection.  That calls for
 24 speculation.
 25      MR. SHAPIRO:  He has the official reports.  He can
 26 look at them.
 27      THE COURT:  Overruled.
 28           You may answer.
 01      THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 03      Q    What is it?
 04      MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, now I will object on the
 05 grounds counsel is attempting to elicit hearsay and hearsay
 06 of a potentially unreliable nature.
 07           There is an addendum to the report to which
 08 counsel is referring, which states, in part, "the following
 09 information summary is based on preliminary information and
 10 cannot be completely verified at the time of this report."
 11           In addition, what counsel is attempting to
 12 elicit does not fall within an exception to the hearsay
 13 rule.  Even though contained in what may be characterized
 14 as an official record, you still have second level
 15 hearsay.
 16           So on all those grounds, I object.
 17      THE COURT:  I still don't think, Mr. Shapiro, you
 18 have established the foundation the court needed to be
 19 established before that information could come in for
 20 the limited purpose for which the doctor considered it,
 21 if he indeed considered it.
 22           I don't know whether he did.  That is the
 23 foundation that has not been established.
 24      MR. SHAPIRO:  I believe, your Honor, he has testified
 25 an eyewitness or somebody establishing the time the
 26 decedent was last known alive would be one of six factors
 27 he would consider in establishing time of death.
 28      THE COURT:  I understand that.  But specifically in
 01 this case there has been no testimony he, in fact, did
 02 rely on any statement from someone indicating they had had
 03 a telephone conversation with the decedent; And that's what
 04 you need to establish before I will allow that testimony in
 05 for a limited purpose only, not for the truth of the
 06 matter.
 08      Q    If you had some information as to the time the
 09 decedent was last talking to her mother, would that be of
 10 any benefit to you in coming to your estimate as to the
 11 time of death?
 12      A    My estimates are based on the body measurements.
 13 I do not use -- I did not use any information about a
 14 telephone conversation.
 15      Q    Did you see any information about a telephone
 16 conversation when you came to your conclusions?
 17      A    I heard about a telephone conversation and did
 18 see it in the report.
 19      Q    Who did you hear about it from?
 20      A    The initial -- the initial report of the
 21 telephone conversation?
 22      Q    Yes.
 23      A    I believe I heard it on the news or in the
 24 paper.
 25      Q    Is that before you saw it in your report?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    You mean the news had it on before it was in your
 28 investigator's report on the 13th?
 01      A    I believe the news used the investigator's
 02 Report -- preliminary investigator's report.
 03      Q    Are you saying the news read the report before
 04 you did?
 05      A    No, I am not saying that at all.
 06      Q    My question now is --
 07      a    All I am saying is I did not use any telephone
 08 conversation to come to this time of death
 09 determination.  I am using body measurements and Rigor
 10 mortis, livor mortis, cooling of the body and the
 11 gastric contents.  That has nothing to do with a
 12 telephone conversation.
 13      Q    It is 10-1/2 hours after the fact, and you would
 14 rather rely upon that than upon a mother's testimony that
 15 she -- or mother's comment she had a telephone conversation
 16 with her daughter?
 17           Which one do you think is more accurate?
 18      MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, that's compound.
 19      THE COURT:  Among other things.
 20           Sustained.
 21      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 22           We will go on to something else.
 23      Q    Do you have an opinion -- you observed the
 24 stomach contents of the decedent Mr. Goldman; is that
 25 correct?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    Did you save those?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    Why did you save his and not save hers?
 02      A    Well, first of all, I did not think it was
 03 indicated to save the contents on nicole brown Simpson.
 04 It was important to measure it, characterize it and
 05 describe it; and I did not think it was indicated to save it
 06 for toxicological examination.
 07           Of course, saving blood and other body fluids are
 08 very important for toxicological examination, which is what
 09 we did.  The duty to characterize the gastric contents and
 10 measure it and describe what was in it is important, which
 11 is what I did.
 12           On Mr. Goldman, again, blood and other body
 13 fluids were preserved.  On him I was asked to save the
 14 gastric contents.
 15      Q    Who asked you to do that?
 16      A    My chief supervisor, Dr. lakshmanan.
 17      Q    Do you have an opinion as to, between nicole
 18 brown and ronald Goldman, who was the last one to consume
 19 food?
 20      A    I have no opinion on that, no.
 21      Q    Did you form any conclusion or opinion as to
 22 whose food was more digested in the stomach?
 23      A    Mr. Goldman's food was more digested than
 24 nicole brown Simpson's.
 01      Q    If he ate after she did, would that mean that
 02 he lived longer than she did?
 03      A    If he had a meal after she had a meal --
 04      Q    Yes.
 05      A    -- Does this indicate that he lived longer
 06 than she did?
 07      Q    Yes.
 08      A    Well, I don't know for sure.   His state of --
 09 the food being more digested in his stomach could
 10 indicate that he had the meal earlier or that he had a
 11 lighter meal or that it  -- digestion started sooner,
 12 whereas her food being in the less digested state,
 13 particularly what I observed, a lot of the food was  --
 14 appeared to be unchewed.
 15           Particularly some of the particles of rigatoni
 16 were unchewed, and that could indicate that the unchewed
 17 food could remain in the stomach for a longer period of
 18 time before digestion.
 19      Q    Regarding the knife wounds, is it your finding
 20 that there were two types of knife wounds on both
 21 victims?
 22      A    There are two morphologically different types
 23 of stab wounds on the victims.   Namely, some of the
 24 stab wounds on the victims are indicative of a
 25 single-edged blade for the reasons that I indicated.
 26 They have both a round or blunt end and a pointed end.
 27           And other -- some of the wounds have a
 28 characteristically double pointed or forked end, which
 01 would indicate that they could be made by either a blunt
 02 end instrument, or knife, or a double sharp end
 03 instrument.   In other words, a two-edged knife or a
 04 single-edged knife.
 05           And there's no way that my determinations can
 06 tell the difference between those, so there are two
 07 morphologically different types.
 08      Q    Could two knives have produced the injuries on
 09 both of the victims?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    Was there any evidence of any sexual attack on
 12 the decedent, Nicole Brown?
 13      A    No, there wasn't.
 14      Q    Did you look for any semen, saliva, hairs,
 15 Bloods, that might be left behind on the victim of a
 16 sexual attack?
 17      A    Okay.   That -- that would be a -- that would
 18 be performed by a criminalist, to collect and preserve
 19 that evidence, and I wouldn't do it, and it's my
 20 understanding that it was not requested or performed.
 21      Q    Was there any attempt made to look for seman
 22 in Nicole or Mr. Goldman at the scene or at the autopsy?
 23      A    Not to my knowledge.
 24      Q    Is it proper, in your opinion, to do a rape
 25 kit analysis on young women murder victims as a general
 26 rule?
 27      A    The circumstances would dictate whether that
 28 procedure would be performed, and the investigators are
 01 the ones who would initiate that request.
 02      Q    Detective Vannatter brought you a knife to
 03 examine.
 04      A    Yes, he did.
 05      Q    When was that?
 06      A    Wednesday.   So that would be Wednesday,
 07 June 15th.
 08      Q    Was he alone when he brought that to you?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    Where were you when you received that knife?
 11      A    I was in my office at the coroner's office.
 12      Q    Did he give you a chance to examine the knife?
 13      A    Briefly.
 14      Q    Did you ask him -- did you tell him you might
 15 have needed -- did you need more time than he gave you
 16 to examine it?
 17      A    For an accurate scientific examination, yes.
 18      Q    Did you tell him that?
 19      A    No.
 20      Q    Why not?
 21      A    I didn't see -- think it was indicated.
 22      Q    The detective who is in charge of a homicide
 23 comes in with a knife and he tells you, "this may be
 24 similar to the murder weapon"; is that correct?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    He asks you to check to see, and you're
 27 telling us that you didn't think it was indicated for
 28 you to perform a proper evaluation?
 01      A    Well, I said it could be.   It could be the
 02 weapon that caused some of the wounds, including the
 03 cutting wounds.
 04           It was a single edged -- it had a single sharp
 05 cutting edge, and it's obviously consistent with many of
 06 the slashing wounds.
 07            And it was a six-inch blade and at the time
 08 we didn't think it indicated -- or I didn't think it
 09 indicated to go through each wound, wound by wound, to
 10 try to exclude that weapon.   That can be done at some
 11 other time.
 12      Q    You understand a man is sitting in jail faced
 13 with charges of double homicide, do you not?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    Well, when could that be done to protect his
 16 rights?
 17      MR. HODGMAN:  Objection, Your Honor; argumentative.
 18      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 20      Q    When would you suggest doing that to protect
 21 his rights?
 22      MR. HODGMAN:  Same objection.
 23      THE COURT:  Sustained as to the form of the
 24 question.
 26      Q    When would you suggest doing these tests?
 27      A    Now?
 28      MR. SHAPIRO:  I have nothing further.
 01      THE COURT:  Mr. Hodgeman.
 02      MR. HODGMAN:  If I may have just a moment,
 03 Your Honor.
 04           Thank you, Your Honor.
 06                   REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 09      Q    Dr. Golden, with regard to your testimony
 10 today regarding time of death, these are estimations,
 11 are they not?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    These are approximations, are they not?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    And there is not a way, even based upon the
 16 criteria articulated in court this afternoon, for you to
 17 pinpoint a time of death; is that correct?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    The best you can do is give us a range of time
 20 in which time of death might have occurred; is that
 21 correct?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    And that is an approximation at best, is it
 24 not?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      MR. HODGMAN:  That's all I have, Your Honor.
 27      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, anything further?
 28      MR. SHAPIRO:  This witness may be excused.
 01      THE COURT:  Thank you, doctor.   You may step down.
 02           Please do not discuss your testimony with
 03 anyone but the attorneys involved.
 04      MS. CLARK:  At this time, Your Honor, the people
 05 would ask that all of the exhibits marked, with the
 06 exception of the originally marked 4 and 5, be admitted
 07 into evidence.
 08      THE COURT:  All right.   That would be exhibits
 09 number 1 through 33, with the exception of People's 4
 10 and 5.
 11           Mr. Shapiro, do you have any objection to the
 12 receipt of those exhibits?
 13      MR. UELMEN:  No objections.
 14      THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Uelmen.
 15           People's 1 through 33, with the exception of 4
 16 and 5, are received in evidence at this time.
 17      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 18           The people rest.
 19      THE COURT:  Will there be any affirmative defense
 20 or other evidence offered by the defense?
 21      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, we did proffer a
 22 stipulation in chambers.   I don't know if the people
 23 are willing to accept that stipulation?
 24      MS. CLARK:  There is no evidence to support the
 25 stipulation proffered.   There will be no stipulation.
 26      THE COURT:  All right.
 27            Did you wish to offer any of your exhibits
 28 that had been offered in connection with the motion to
 01 suppress?
 02      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, we do, Your Honor, all exhibits.
 03      THE COURT:  All right.   That would be
 04 Defense 'A', 'B', 'C', 'D'.   The court did not allow
 05 'E', 'G', or 'H'.
 06           So are you seeking to offer only 'A', 'B',
 07 'C', 'D' and 'F' at this time?
 08      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, Your Honor.
 09      THE COURT:  Any objection?
 10      MS. CLARK:  No objection.
 11      THE COURT:  Those items are received from the
 12 defense.
 13           Do you have any motions at this time?
 14      MR. SHAPIRO:  Before we begin considering an
 15 affirmative defense, there would be a motion to dismiss
 16 the case, Your Honor.
 17      THE COURT:  I'm sorry.   You say before you begin
 18 considering an affirmative defense?
 19      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.   I think at THIS point in time
 20 we would like to make a motion to have this case
 21 dismissed.
 22      THE COURT:  That motion is denied.
 23           Did you wish to present an affirmative
 24 defense?
 25      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I just have one moment,
 26 Your Honor?
 27      THE COURT:  Yes.
 28      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, perhaps we might suggest
 01 a five-minute recess so I can confer with counsel and my
 02 client.
 03      THE COURT:  All right.
 04      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 06    (At 2:15 p.m., a recess was taken until 2:20 p.m.)
 08      THE COURT:  All right.   We're once again on the
 09 record in the case of People versus Simpson.
 10           The defendant is present with counsel, the
 11 people are represented.
 12           Mr. Shapiro.
 13      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, Your Honor.   I have decided not
 14 to present any affirmative evidence at this time, and
 15 the defense rests on the state of the evidence.
 16      THE COURT:  All right.   Do you have any other
 17 motions that you wish to make at this time or be heard
 18 with regard to any motions?
 19      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, Your Honor.   I would like to be
 20 heard on a motion to dismiss.
 21      THE COURT:  I'll hear you at this time.
 22      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 23           Would you like me to go to the podium or stand
 24 here?
 25      THE COURT:  I think the podium is probably better.
 26      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, I would ask the court to
 27 consider the jury instruction that would be given in a
 28 case like this regarding circumstantial evidence, and
 01 that is if the evidence presented relies solely on
 02 circumstantial evidence, there can be no conviction
 03 unless the circumstances point to guilt and are not
 04 reconcilable with any other reasonable theory.
 05           If, on the other hand, the circumstances may
 06 point to guilt or may point to innocence, the jury or
 07 finder of fact must adopt that theory which points to
 08 innocence and reject that which points to guilt.
 09           Now clearly this is not a trial, and clearly
 10 this burden is not the same.   But the legal principal
 11 remains.
 12           This is a case based entirely on
 13 circumstantial evidence.   And it is clear from the
 14 presentation of the people and through our
 15 cross-examination that the circumstances can point both
 16 towards a suspicion of guilt and also towards a theory
 17 of innocence.
 18           The key piece of evidence that the people are
 19 relying on is the serology of a 99 percent chance that
 20 four blood drops found at the Bundy crime scene were of
 21 the same type and chemical composition as that of
 22 Mr. O.J. Simpson.
 23      MS. CLARK:  Objection.   That's a misstatement of
 24 the evidence.
 25      THE COURT:  This is argument, Ms. Clark.   You can
 26 be heard in response.
 27      MR. SHAPIRO:  The converse of that is this:  if you
 28 take the Coliseum on any given Sunday, 40,000, 80,000
 01 people will have that same blood type.
 02           Number two, there was testimony elicited from
 03 the People's witness that Mr. Simpson has joint custody
 04 of these children with his ex-wife, the decedent,
 05 Nicole.
 06           That being the case, it is reasonable to
 07 assume that he would visit the children or pick them up
 08 at her condominium on a regular basis.
 09           Since the criminalist cannot fix the age of
 10 the blood spots, there is an equally reasonable theory
 11 that those blood spots, if in fact they belonged to
 12 Mr. Simpson, were placed there at some other time than
 13 at the time of death.
 14           And in fact, the criminalist testified that by
 15 viewing the photographs, the blood appeared to be of
 16 different ages.   However, he blamed that on poor
 17 photography.
 18           But on cross-examination, he admitted that
 19 proper crime scene photography requires using the same
 20 type of equipment with the same lighting conditions from
 21 the same angle.
 22           Point number two that the prosecution relies
 23 on:  There is a matching glove found in the debris
 24 behind the Simpson residence that matches a glove found
 25 at the crime scene.
 26           Another conclusion -- well, let's go by the
 27 testimony.
 28           I asked deputy Vannatter, "how did that glove
 01 get there?"   He said, "someone brought it there."
 02           Let's look at the other circumstantial
 03 evidence involved.   If in fact the killer lived at the
 04 Simpson residence, the court would have to believe the
 05 following:
 06           That in a window period of less than an hour,
 07 the killer was able to leave the crime scene that has
 08 been described with a victim with two arteries in the
 09 neck cut, two jugular veins cut, and massive blood from
 10 both victims.
 11           A clear inference would be that the murderer
 12 was indeed covered with blood.   The murderer would then
 13 have to do the following:
 14           Abandon the bloody clothing, because they have
 15 not been found or presented; abandon the murder weapon,
 16 because that has not been found or discovered; abandon
 17 bloody shoes, because they have not been found or
 18 discovered; and then go back to his house and leave a
 19 bloody glove in his backyard.
 20           That just doesn't stand up to logic.
 21           We have no evidence whatsoever in this record
 22 that whoever committed this horrendous act acted with
 23 premeditation and deliberation, as is charged in the
 24 complaint filed by the District Attorney.
 25           This is a case that the police admit is still
 26 under investigation, where other suspects are being
 27 sought, where the medical examiner admits that two
 28 weapons could have been used, a clear inference that
 01 there may be more than one killer.
 02           I don't want to go through each and every area
 03 of impeachment with the witnesses, but I think it is
 04 very, very clear that everybody who has participated in
 05 this investigation has not done so in a professional
 06 manner.
 07           From the time the Los Angeles Police
 08 Department arrived on the crime scene, it was nearly
 09 ten hours later until they started the scientific
 10 investigation and even took the temperature of the body.
 11           There was testimony that the Fire Department
 12 obviously was there and left and didn't do anything, yet
 13 the coroner's records clearly indicate that the Fire
 14 Department chief was the person who pronounced the
 15 bodies dead.   I doubt if he did that from a distance.
 16           This is a case that everybody has jumped to an
 17 immediate and unrealistic conclusion as to the state of
 18 this evidence.
 19           This is a case that is not ready yet to come
 20 to court.   This is a case where the chief serologist
 21 said, "we use serology as much to eliminate as to
 22 implicate," and yet we have no D.N.A. testing back.
 23           This is a case that is needless and groundless
 24 and does not warrant any further consideration at this
 25 point in time.
 26           The court, on viewing all of the evidence that
 27 has been presented from the witness stand, should have
 28 little difficulty in deciding that this certainly is not
 01 a case of any premeditated murder by anyone, for there
 02 is totally no evidence on that issue whatsoever; and
 03 number two, that there is not and cannot be at this
 04 point in time a strong suspicion that Mr. Simpson is
 05 guilty of anything.
 06           Therefore, Your Honor, it is incumbent upon
 07 you to exercise your duties under the law and dismiss
 08 this case.
 09      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark.
 10      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 11           In order to find in this case, Your Honor,
 12 that there is no strong suspicion to believe the
 13 defendant has committed the crimes that he is charged
 14 with, you would have to ignore all of the evidence.
 15           And the evidence is consistent and very
 16 powerful, even at this early stage of the case, that --
 17 to indicate that the defendant has indeed committed
 18 every crime that he is charged with.
 19           As I'm sure this court is aware, there need be
 20 no finding with respect to the degree of the murders
 21 charged at this time.
 22           I will address the issue of the sufficiency of
 23 the evidence to prove premeditation, however, if the
 24 court desires, but I will leave that for now unless and
 25 until the court asks me to address that issue, because I
 26 do think the evidence is clearly sufficient to show that
 27 these crimes were premeditated murders.
 28           With respect to the issue of circumstantial
 01 evidence, as usual, as is typical, counsel picks one
 02 part away and says, "that's not enough," and takes
 03 another part away and says, "that's not enough."
 04           And of course, if you pick apart any case, any
 05 one bit singly may not be enough to prove the entire
 06 case, nor should it be, because circumstantial evidence
 07 being one of the stronger ways to prove guilt requires a
 08 number of pieces of evidence to amount to proof that the
 09 defendant committed the crimes charged.   This case is
 10 no exception.
 11           Rather than relying on the testimony of an eye
 12 witness who may be mistaken, who may be under stress,
 13 seeing a defendant flee from a scene, perhaps with poor
 14 lighting, never having seen that person before, and
 15 glimpsing them for a split second, that's direct
 16 evidence.
 17           But as the court knows, a fingerprint is
 18 circumstantial evidence.   Circumstantial evidence in
 19 that way is very, very reliable and is much stronger
 20 because it does rely on many factors for its proof
 21 rather than one single one.
 22           This is a physical evidence case, and a
 23 physical evidence case and the inferences to be drawn
 24 therefrom are powerful.
 25           First of all, the killer in this case was
 26 clearly injured during the commission of these
 27 murders.   He left a trail of blood leading away from
 28 the victims to the rear of the residence and out to the
 01 alley.
 02           A trail of blood was found from the
 03 defendant's Ford Bronco leading up the driveway to his
 04 front door.
 05           And I would remind the court that the distance
 06 between the two locations is a mere two miles,
 07 approximately.
 08           Certainly, not enough time for whatever injury
 09 was sustained at the time of the attack to have healed
 10 sufficiently so that he would not bleed, unless he was
 11 holding something in his hands that would stop the
 12 blood.
 13           Now the fact that we failed to find the bloody
 14 shoes that clearly were worn from the scene -- although
 15 we did find a bloody glove -- is hardly illogical at
 16 all.   The reason we found the bloody glove was simply
 17 accident, the defendant's misfortune.
 18           It was clearly his intent at the time the
 19 thumps were heard by Kato, he was back there trying to
 20 hide things or looking for a place to secrete them and
 21 dropped the glove inadvertently.
 22           If he knew he dropped the glove, obviously we
 23 would never have found that either.   But that was not
 24 the case.   He did drop the glove, not intentionally but
 25 by accident.
 26           Secondly, the bloody glove that was found at
 27 the crime scene is left-handed.   That's a very
 28 important fact.
 01           The bloody shoe prints leaving that crime
 02 scene with blood drops alongside them were to the left
 03 of those shoe prints.   That shows us that the killer
 04 was injured somewhere on his left side.
 05           The blood on the driver's door handle of the
 06 Ford Bronco would logically be opened with the left
 07 hand, and it's no coincidence that we just happen to
 08 find the blood spot on the driver's door handle.
 09           And now I know that the testimony to this
 10 time, Your Honor, has indicated that it was positive as
 11 an indication of blood, but not tested to be human or
 12 animal.
 13           But the last time I checked, dogs don't drive
 14 cars, and at least not Ford Broncos, and I think we can
 15 draw a reasonable inference that it was a human who left
 16 the blood on the door handle of the car.
 17           And those reasonable inferences are precisely
 18 what the court is required to draw from all of the
 19 evidence, the reasonable inferences.
 20           Now on the day that the defendant returned
 21 from Chicago, Detective Vannatter makes the observation
 22 that after having seen the left-handed bloody glove left
 23 at the crime scene that clearly came off during the
 24 struggle, which is what allowed him to get the cut that
 25 left the blood drops to the left of the footprints and
 26 found the blood -- left the blood drops on the driver's
 27 handle door, he sees the defendant with a bandage around
 28 his middle left finger.
 01           And then he takes him down to Parker Center
 02 where he sees, again, that he has -- and we've shown the
 03 picture to the court -- a swollen finger on the left
 04 hand with a cut that was dressed and treated at Parker
 05 Center.   No coincidence.
 06           Third.   The right-handed mate to that glove
 07 is found on the defendant's property at, I think it was
 08 mere hours after the crimes were committed, in a dark
 09 narrow area, obviously where there was some clandestine
 10 activity designed to hide evidence, during which time it
 11 was inadvertently dropped.
 12           And that discovery was made after Kato Kaelin
 13 indicated he heard the three thumps against the wall.
 14 Someone fell against that wall, and that someone was the
 15 defendant, and in that process lost the right-handed
 16 glove.   And a presumptive test on that glove for blood
 17 came up positive.
 18           Fourth.   The defendant clearly lied to the
 19 limousine driver, Allan Park.
 20           When Allan Park drove down to the Rockingham
 21 gate at about 10:40, the Ford Bronco was not there.
 22 Between 10:40 and 10:55, he rang the intercom repeatedly
 23 and he received no answer.
 24           It was only when 15 minutes later, after Park
 25 had just seen a Black person six feet, 200 pounds, walk
 26 quickly up the drive and into the front door, that the
 27 intercom was finally answered by the defendant.
 28           Before that person six feet, 200 pounds,
 01 entered the house -- through a front door that Kato said
 02 was kept locked -- all downstairs lights were off.
 03 Immediately after that person entered the house, all the
 04 lights went on.   And 30 seconds later, the defendant
 05 answered the intercom, where previously he had failed to
 06 do so.
 07           Now it must be obvious to everyone at this
 08 point that the person seen entering the house by Allan
 09 Park was the defendant.
 10           But he lied to the limousine driver, and it's
 11 a very significant lie, because why would he need to do
 12 that?
 13           Why not just say, "I was out getting some last
 14 minute things, I had to go shopping, I had to go to the
 15 store, I had to go get something from the 7-Eleven."
 16 He could have said anything.
 17           But it's very significant that he chose to lie
 18 to the limo driver at all, and the lie he chose to tell.
 19 What lie did he tell?   He said, "oh, I overslept.   I
 20 just got out of the shower."   We know that's not
 21 true.   He was seen just going into the house 30 seconds
 22 before.
 23           The only reason to tell such a lie is that the
 24 defendant is trying to set up an alibi for the time when
 25 he knows that the murders occurred.   A very
 26 significant, significant piece of evidence.
 27           Fifth.   The blood drop on the trail leading
 28 away from the victims at 875 south Bundy.   Testing
 01 revealed that only 43 percent of the population could
 02 have given -- could have been the source of that blood
 03 drop.
 04      THE COURT:  Is that 43 percent or .43 percent?
 05      MS. CLARK:  .43.   Thank you, Your Honor, .43.
 06           Now what's interesting is on
 07 cross-examination, counsel attempted to elicit the
 08 possibility that that stain might reflect that two
 09 people left that blood drop on the trail.
 10           If that's true, we do know this:  at least one
 11 of them had all of the markers that can be attributed to
 12 the defendant, who is within .43 percent of the
 13 population that could have left that blood drop.
 14           And of the 43 percent of the population that
 15 could have been the source -- the .43 percent that could
 16 have been the source of that blood drop, how many had a
 17 bloody glove found on their property mere hours after
 18 the murders occurred, a bloody glove that matched the
 19 bloody glove found at the crime scene, at the feet of
 20 one of the victims?
 21           That must considerably narrow down that
 22 figure, and so it's not just 99.57 percent of the
 23 population that is excluded, but virtually everyone but
 24 the defendant when all of the evidence is taken into
 25 account, Your Honor.
 26           And in light of all of the evidence that we
 27 have presented, the people have more than established
 28 and carried their burden with respect to this
 01 preliminary hearing, and I submit that the defendant
 02 should be held to answer for all of the charges as
 03 charged in the complaint.
 04           Thank you.
 05      THE COURT:  All right.
 06           At this time, the court will take a 15 minute
 07 recess.   I will announce my ruling at 3:00 o'clock.
 09    (At 2:45 p.m., a recess was taken until 3:10 p.m.)
 11      THE COURT:  We're once again on the record in the
 12 case of People versus Simpson.   The defendant is
 13 present with counsel, the people are represented.
 14           The court has carefully considered the
 15 evidence in this case and the arguments of counsel.
 16           Keeping in mind that the proof in this matter
 17 is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the court feels
 18 that there is ample evidence to establish a strong
 19 suspicion of the guilt of the accused, and therefore the
 20 motion to dismiss is denied at this time.
 21           I want to make one comment with regard to the
 22 envelope, and that is this:
 23           That that envelope at this time remains
 24 sealed; that the contents of that envelope, whatever
 25 they may be, in no way played a part in the proceeding
 26 or the decision in this matter; that that envelope in a
 27 sealed condition will be transferred, along with the
 28 court file, to the Superior Court for such further
 01 rulings as are appropriate at a future point in time.
 02           The defendant will please stand.
 03           It appearing to me from the evidence presented
 04 that the following offenses have been committed, and
 05 there is sufficient cause to believe this defendant
 06 guilty of Count 1, a violation of Penal Code section
 07 187(a), with a special allegation pursuant to Penal Code
 08 section 12022(b); and Count 2, a violation of Penal Code
 09 section 187(a), with a special allegation pursuant to
 10 Penal Code section 12022(b); and also that there is
 11 sufficient evidence of a special allegation pursuant to
 12 Penal Code section 190.2(a)(3), the court holds that the
 13 defendant be held to answer therefor, that there be no
 14 bail allowed in this case, and that the defendant be
 15 committed to the custody of the Sheriff of Los Angeles
 16 County.
 17           Date of arraignment in Superior Court will be
 18 July the 22nd at 8:30 in Department 100.
 19           The defendant is remanded at this time, and
 20 this court is adjourned.
 23           (PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED AT 3:15 P.M.)
 04                                        )  no. BA097211
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06             VS.                        )
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                                        )
 10                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 12                        )   SS
 22           DATED THIS 8th DAY OF July, 1994.
 24                _____________________________________
 24                      ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 25                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 27                _____________________________________
 27                       ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
 28                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER