Preliminary Hearing - July 7, 1994
0001
01 IN THE MUNICIPAL COURT OF LOS ANGELES JUDICIAL DISTRICT
02 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES, STATE OF CALIFORNIA
03 HON. KATHLEEN KENNEDY-POWELL, JUDGE DEPARTMENT 105
04 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, ) NO. BA097211
04 )
05 PLAINTIFF, )
05 )
06 VS. ) VOLUME 10
06 )
07 )
07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
08 AKA O.J. SIMPSON, )
08 )
09 )
09 DEFENDANT. )
10 _______________________________________)
10
11
11
12 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
12
13 THURSDAY, JULY 7, 1994
13
14
14
15 APPEARANCES:
15
16 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MARCIA CLARK
16 WILLIAM HODGMAN
17 DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
17
18
18
19 FOR THE DEFENDANT: ROBERT SHAPIRO
19 GERALD UELMEN
20 PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
20
21
21
22
22
23 SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES
23
24
24
25
25
26
26 ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
27 ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
27 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
28
0002
01 I N D E X
01 VOIR
02 PEOPLE'S WITNESS(ES): DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS DIRE
02
03 TOM LANGE 15 40 76 86
03
04 88
04
05
05 PHILLIP VANNATTER 90 107
06
06
07
07 -O0O-
08
08
09 EXHIBITS
09
10
10 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT(S): FOR IDENTIFICATION
11
11 5 - SERIES OF PHOTOS 18
12 (WITHDRAWN)
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13 5 - PHOTO 18
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14 10 - PHOTO 25
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15 11 - PHOTO 26
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16 12 - PHOTO 27
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17 13 - PHOTO 27
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18 14 - PHOTO 28
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19 15 - PHOTO 28
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20 16 - PHOTO 29
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21 17 - PHOTO 30
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22 18 - PHOTO 32
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23 19 - SERIES OF PHOTOS 33
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24 20 - SERIES OF PHOTOS 33
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25 21 - PHOTO 92
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26 22 - PHOTO 96
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27 23 - SERIES OF PHOTOS 104
27
0003
01 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
02 THURSDAY, JULY 7, 1994
03 9:02 A.M.
04 -O0O-
05
06 THE COURT: Good morning.
07 MR. SHAPIRO: Good morning, Your Honor.
08 MS. CLARK: Good morning Your Honor.
09 MR. HODGMAN: Good morning, Your Honor.
10 MR. UELMEN: Good morning, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: We are once again on the record in
12 People versus Simpson.
13 The defendant is present with counsel, the
14 people are represented.
15 First of all, before announcing the ruling
16 with regard to the 1538.5 motion, I'd just like to say
17 that both attorneys, both sides in this case, did an
18 excellent presentation, for which the court is
19 grateful. And you both gave me quite a bit to think
20 about during the last several hours.
21 The key issue for the Court's determination is
22 whether the warrantless entry into the property on
23 Rockingham and recovery of certain items and physical
24 evidence was justified in light of exigent
25 circumstances.
26 And this is really a gray area of the law. I
27 mean, there's no set formula to establish when or --
28 when an exigent circumstance does exist and when it
0004
01 doesn't. And it's really something that has to be
02 decided on a case by case basis based upon the evidence
03 that's actually questioned in the hearing.
04 There were numerous cases cited by the
05 prosecution as well as by the defense. The court has
06 reviewed all of those cases.
07 The court also found an additional case that I
08 did not see cited by either the prosecution or the
09 defense which, although not identical to the
10 circumstances in this case, is more similar than most of
11 the other cases. And that case is People versus Cain,
12 c-a-i-n, at 216 Cal.App.3d 366, a case decided in
13 December of 1989.
14 In that particular matter, the situation was
15 that there was a woman who had been beaten and raped in
16 a certain apartment. The officers went to that
17 location, observed her. Through the common wall they
18 could hear music coming from the next apartment over and
19 could see that lights were on, and it was early in the
20 morning.
21 The officers knocked on the door, received no
22 answer, and made a determination in their own minds that
23 they felt that there could indeed be an additional
24 victim in the adjacent apartment.
25 The door was unlocked and they entered that
26 apartment. They later found the defendant passed out
27 on the floor intoxicated and recovered physical
28 evidence, including blood stains and clothing, that
0005
01 eventually tied that particular defendant to the crime
02 for which he was later convicted.
03 The court upheld the warrantless entry into
04 that apartment, and the language in that case the Court
05 finds particularly helpful in this particular matter.
06 "The court indicates that due weight
07 must be given, not to the unparticularized
08 suspicions or hunches of the police
09 officers involved, but to the reasonable
10 inference which he -- " or she -- "is
11 entitled to draw from the facts in light
12 of his -- " or her -- "experience."
13 Additionally, that court places a limitation,
14 which other courts indeed have recognized, which is that
15 "the search involved must be strictly circumscribed by
16 the exigencies which justify its initiation."
17 Let's consider the evidence in this case.
18 And basically the evidence that was presented in this
19 matter is, for the most part, uncontroverted with regard
20 to the search.
21 We know from the evidence that was presented
22 that the detectives in this matter -- Vannatter,
23 Fuhrman, Lange and Phillips, I believe -- started out at
24 the crime scene on Bundy.
25 They made the observations of the two dead
26 bodies, the blood, the glove, the footprints, and the
27 droplets of blood leading away from that location.
28 There's no dispute as to what they saw there at Bundy.
0006
01 There's also no dispute that there were two
02 small children who apparently were asleep inside that
03 particular location at the time of the incident itself,
04 and that those small children were taken to the police
05 station.
06 Notwithstanding suggestions to the contrary
07 during cross-examination, the place for two small
08 children whose mother has been murdered is not at the
09 police station, sitting in a corner drawing pictures on
10 a tablet. The place for those kids is with their
11 family.
12 The detectives testified that they were
13 concerned about those children and wanted to make
14 arrangements with regard to those children. The person
15 who is the next of kin to those children is the
16 defendant. He's their father. He is the person that
17 logically would be the one that would be called upon to
18 take action, to take custody of those children.
19 So I don't find anything improper in terms of
20 the police conduct, with the idea that they were going
21 to go to the Simpson home.
22 One might say, "well, why didn't they just
23 call?" Well, apparently they didn't have the phone
24 number to the Simpson home. We learned that through
25 the testimony, that they had to get Westec security to
26 come actually out to the location to try to get that
27 phone number.
28 So they go to the Simpson home, which
0007
01 apparently is only some two miles away and a short car
02 ride. They get to the gate. And here again, it seems
03 to me that they really do extraordinary things to try to
04 make contact with the persons inside.
05 I mean, the testimony was that they rang that
06 bell for some 15 minutes to try to rouse somebody from
07 within the house. They could hear that phone ringing
08 from out at the gate. There's no response.
09 But what do they see? And this apparently is
10 uncontroverted in light of the testimony that was
11 presented. There's a light on upstairs, there's a
12 light on downstairs. There's several vehicles in the
13 driveway. A suggestion that there are persons inside.
14 But then there's more, and of course this is
15 the crucial piece of evidence, but it by itself without
16 all of the other surroundings circumstances would not be
17 enough.
18 But what the officers say while they're
19 shuffling around for these 15 minutes trying to get in
20 touch with someone inside the house is that they see
21 blood, what they believed to be blood, on the door
22 handle or near the door handle of this white Bronco, a
23 white Bronco that is parked on a public street where the
24 officers have a right to be.
25 And the court sees no problem with the
26 observing or recovery of the blood sample from the door
27 of the Bronco.
28 So seeing what they believed to be blood, and
0008
01 having seen droplets of blood leading away from the
02 location, the officers even now are doing more to get in
03 touch with the people inside. They're calling Westec
04 security who, apparently, dispatches at least one if not
05 two vehicles to the location and eventually give the
06 police the telephone number.
07 What they get at that point is an answering
08 machine. They feel -- and the testimony of both
09 officers was that they felt that there was an emergency
10 situation.
11 The officers are cross-examined in length,
12 both by Mr. Uelmen of the initial officer, and by
13 Mr. Shapiro of detective Vannatter. And both lawyers,
14 defense lawyers in this case, did an excellent job on
15 cross-examination.
16 But when one looks at the results of that
17 cross-examination, basically there were really no holes
18 put in either of those detectives' testimonies, that
19 they felt they were acting in an emergency situation at
20 the time.
21 Again, I go back to that language in Cain.
22 "The search must be strictly circumscribed by the
23 exigencies which justify its initiation."
24 This would be a very easy decision for me if
25 in fact these officers went in there like storm
26 troopers, fanning out over the property, examining every
27 leaf, every car, every closet, every nook and cranny of
28 this location.
0009
01 But the testimony as elicited by the officers,
02 and as supported by the witnesses that testified on
03 behalf of the defense, show that this was not what
04 happened.
05 What the testimony was is that the officers
06 went in search of persons on the property. they went
07 to the guest quarters of Mr. Kaelin, woke him up.
08 Now, someone might say, "well, what are they
09 doing looking at those tennis shoes?" Well, they
10 didn't know what the situation was.
11 They knew there were bloody footprints that
12 led away from that location, and there was blood on this
13 vehicle that somehow was tied in or could be tied into
14 that, so they pick up the tennis shoes.
15 There's no blood on the shoes, but they don't
16 start searching under beds, searching drawers, they
17 don't handcuff Mr. Kaelin. They don't do anything like
18 that.
19 Instead, what they do is they ask him if
20 there's other persons on the property. And where do
21 they go? He directs them to Arnelle Simpson's
22 quarters, apparently further down that pathway.
23 Now, Arnelle Simpson testified the officers
24 didn't ask her whether there was anyone hurt or injured
25 or a suicide or something like that going on. But what
26 did Arnelle Simpson tell us?
27 She told us that while she was walking into
28 that house, taking a path to the front door and opening
0010
01 it with a key, the officers asked her about the live-in
02 maid.
03 Again, we have to judge the officers' conduct
04 and the exigency, if there was one, not based upon --
05 not what all of us know today, but based upon what the
06 officers knew at the time.
07 And the information that they had been
08 provided by Westec security was that there was a live-in
09 maid at the location. Additionally, Westec security
10 advised them that they had not been informed that there
11 was going to be a vacation or an absence of the
12 residents from that location.
13 We know now, obviously, that there was no
14 dying person or injured person on the property of the
15 Simpson estate at that time. We know that all the
16 persons who were supposed to be there were accounted
17 for.
18 Mr. Simpson was in Chicago. Mr. Kaelin was
19 in his quarters. Ms. Arnelle Simpson had been out and
20 returned about 1:00 o'clock in the morning. And Gigi,
21 the maid, was on her night off.
22 But the officers didn't know that at the
23 time. So their immediate question, "where's the maid,"
24 and a quick sort of cursory look around the area of the
25 maid's room once they get into the house, again, seems
26 to me, was conduct "that was strictly circumscribed by
27 the exigencies which justified its initiation," the
28 language from that case.
0011
01 Now, what happened once the officers got into
02 the house? What happened was they got on the
03 telephone. They did exactly what they said they were
04 there to do, which is to make arrangements for those
05 children.
06 Cathy Randa was called. Mr. Simpson was
07 located and contacted in Chicago. Apparently
08 Mr. Cowlings was contacted. Nicole Brown's parents
09 were contacted. This is exactly what they said they
10 were there to do, and that's what they did.
11 There is some suggestion -- although I'm not
12 sure that it's clear from the record -- that at some
13 point in time Arnelle Simpson apparently left the
14 location in order to get the children, presumably
15 leaving the police there at the scene, although it's
16 really -- that part of it is not clear to me.
17 There's no indication at any point in time
18 that the officers were told that they should leave,
19 they were not welcome there.
20 Ms. Arnelle Simpson was apparently so upset --
21 and justifiably so -- by the circumstances of which she
22 was informed that she couldn't even talk on the phone
23 and explain to those persons that she was calling what
24 had happened.
25 And the only other thing really that went on
26 while the officers were there at that time, that portion
27 of the testimony, was that they talked to Mr. Kaelin.
28 "Did anything unusual happen around here last night?"
0012
01 And we know from Mr. Kaelin's testimony that
02 there was a loud, jarring, banging on the wall in his
03 guest quarters, one that scared him, that he didn't know
04 the origin of, that he had mentioned to several other
05 persons but had never really investigated himself.
06 So the officers have that information from
07 Mr. Kaelin, and detective Fuhrman walks down that
08 path. He doesn't go anywhere else on the property.
09 Officers make no attempt to go upstairs. They don't
10 start opening cupboards, lifting up carpets, opening
11 vehicles.
12 He goes down that path to the area
13 approximately adjacent to the air conditioner where that
14 noise was seen in (sic) and the picture jarred from the
15 wall and finds a glove, a glove that appears to be the
16 apparent mate to the glove found at the crime scene.
17 And at that point he describes that he walked
18 down toward the end of the path to see where it would
19 lead, looking to see whether he would find a body there,
20 and that's sort of what he expected to find, according
21 to his testimony.
22 He then takes the other detectives one at a
23 time to that location and shows them the glove as well.
24 Contrary to the suggestions in the defense
25 argument that this ruling allowing the officers'
26 conduct -- or finding that it was reasonable and there
27 were exigent circumstances -- would mean the end of the
28 Fourth Amendment and Constitution and anarchy, I
0013
01 disagree.
02 And I think one only needs to look as far as
03 the fact that within a short time after that glove was
04 discovered, that the officers did in fact obtain a
05 search warrant and apparently many other items of
06 evidence were recovered, none of which are going to be
07 offered during the course of this particular proceeding.
08 So in my mind, the Fourth Amendment is alive
09 and well. It is recognized. It's nothing new,
10 nothing novel that I'm coming up with here, that there
11 are exigent circumstances that on occasion justify a
12 warrantless entry and a limited search.
13 And this, it appears to the court, is what
14 occurred in this particular case based upon, as I
15 indicated, not only the testimony of the officers as to
16 what their state of mind was, but the specific actions
17 that they took which show, in fact, that that indeed was
18 their state of mind.
19 And they are entitled to, and the court is
20 entitled to give weight to, the experience of those
21 officers in drawing their conclusions. And what we
22 learn about those officers is that, I think one had 19
23 or so years of experience and Vannatter over 25 years of
24 experience, an elite homicide unit, and all of that can
25 be taken into account.
26 The Court finds that they were in fact acting
27 for a benevolent purpose in light of the brutal attack,
28 and that a delay -- and that they reasonably believed
0014
01 that a further delay could have resulted in the
02 unnecessary loss of life.
03 And, therefore, the court denies the defense
04 motion to suppress and will allow the introduction into
05 evidence of the glove that was recovered and of the
06 spattered blood spots that were located on the driveway
07 once the sun came up, as well as the blood stain from
08 the Bronco which was in plain view on a public street.
09 Miss Clark, do you have an additional witness
10 to call at this time?
11 MS. CLARK: Yes, Your Honor, I do.
12 If I may inquire of the defense when they
13 wanted to have Mr. Kaelin re-take the stand to complete
14 cross-examination.
15 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, we have no objection to
16 excusing Mr. Kaelin from these proceedings.
17 THE COURT: All right. So you are not asking that
18 he be recalled at this time?
19 MR. SHAPIRO: No, we're not. Thank you.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 MS. CLARK: There will be no further
22 cross-examination?
23 THE COURT: That was the indication.
24 MS. CLARK: Thank you, Your Honor.
25 The people call detective Tom Lange.
26
27
28 \ \
0015
01 THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand.
02 You do solemnly swear the testimony you may
03 give in the cause now pending before this court shall be
04 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so
05 help you God?
06 THE WITNESS: I do.
07
08 TOM LANGE,
09 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
10 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
11 follows:
12 THE CLERK: Please be seated.
13 State and spell your name for the record.
14 THE WITNESS: Tom Lange. L-a-n-g-e, also known as
15 Frederick Lange.
16 THE COURT: You may inquire.
17 MS. CLARK: Thank you, Your Honor.
18
19 DIRECT EXAMINATION
20
21 BY MS. CLARK:
22 Q Detective Lange, would you please tell us what
23 you do for a living, sir.
24 A I'm a police detective for the City of
25 Los Angeles, assigned to Robbery Homicide Division,
26 homicide special section.
27 Q How long have you been a police officer, sir?
28 A 27 years in October.
0016
01 Q And how long have you been assigned to Robbery
02 Homicide Division, homicide special?
03 A I've been assigned to that unit since November
04 of 1978.
05 Q How many homicides have you investigated over
06 the entire course of your career?
07 A I can give you an approximation. Homicides
08 that I've been directly assigned or investigations that
09 I've been a part of, probably between 250 and 300.
10 Q Now, in robbery homicide, homicide special,
11 how many cases have you handled overall? Just an
12 estimate.
13 A Well, again, it would be open to
14 interpretation. There have been serial killings, there
15 have been mass killings. If these are individual or --
16 I don't know. It would have to be over 200.
17 Q Sir, were you assigned as one of the
18 investigating officers in the case now pending before
19 this court?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And how did that come about?
22 A I was awakened approximately 3:00 a.m. on
23 Monday, June 13th, at home.
24 Q And what did you do when you got that call?
25 A I had received information that there was a
26 double homicide at 875 south Bundy, the West Los Angeles
27 area, and so I responded to that location, arriving
28 approximately 4:30 a.m.
0017
01 Q Is that Brentwood of Los Angeles County, sir?
02 A Yes.
03 Q Now, by the time you arrived, were other
04 officers already present?
05 A Yes.
06 Q And was the scene secured in some manner?
07 A Yes. The scene was secured by police yellow
08 marker tape, as well as by uniformed patrol officers.
09 Q If you would, sir, could you please describe
10 the building -- well, strike that.
11 Did you see the apparent victims in this case
12 when you arrived at the scene?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did someone lead you through a path that would
15 avoid disturbing evidence to do so?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And what was that path?
18 A The path was a walkway running along the north
19 side of the residence, perpendicular to the sidewalk in
20 front.
21 Q And what were you able to see from that
22 vantage point, sir?
23 A On the walkway I observed one victim, Nicole
24 Brown Simpson, lying in a -- on the walkway at the foot
25 of three steps leading up to the front entrance.
26 Q Were you able to see any other victims, sir?
27 A Yes. Just to the north and a little west of
28 the first victim, I observed the second victim,
0018
01 Mr. Goldman, lying beneath a large tree in an area just
02 off the walkway.
03 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, I have here a series of
04 small photographs. I am showing them to counsel.
05 With respect to the first of these
06 photographs, I'm going to ask that it be substituted in
07 lieu of the larger photograph that's been marked on a
08 poster board.
09 THE COURT: And do you recall which number that
10 was?
11 MS. CLARK: I'm going to inform the court.
12 People's 5, Your Honor.
13 If I may withdraw People's 5 and substitute in
14 lieu of that the smaller photograph and mark it as
15 People's 5.
16 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, any objection?
17 MR. SHAPIRO: No, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 MS. CLARK: I believe counsel agrees this is a
20 smaller version of the same one we have previously
21 shown.
22 BY MS. CLARK:
23 Q Showing you People's 5, can you tell me if you
24 recognize what I'm showing you?
25 A Yes. This is the victim, Nicole Brown
26 Simpson, lying in the position that I observed her on
27 the morning of the 13th.
28 Q That is the position that you observed?
0019
01 A Yes.
02 Q And I'm sorry, sir, I didn't hear.
03 Did you tell us that you observed any other
04 victims?
05 A Yes. I observed a second victim,
06 subsequently identified as Mr. Goldman, to the north and
07 just west in the dirt area just off of the walkway
08 beneath a large tree.
09 Q Now, did you have what we call a Walk-through
10 at that scene?
11 A Yes. I was given a walk-through by
12 West Los Angeles homicide detectives.
13 Q And where did you walk?
14 A Initially we walked up to the bodies to the
15 location, and observed them at close range. Some
16 various things were pointed out to me initially by
17 detective Phillips.
18 We then proceeded up the steps towards the
19 front entrance of the home and eventually entered the
20 home. Again, several things were pointed out to me by
21 detective Phillips that he had observed.
22
23
0020
01 Q And when you pointed out -- when he pointed
02 them out to you, did you observe them, sir?
03 A Yes.
04 Q Can you tell us what those items were?
05 A Initially, near Mr. Goldman, there was a white
06 envelope containing what appeared to be prescription
07 glasses. It was lying just off the walkway, in the dirt,
08 between the first and second victims.
09 There appeared to be a dark blue knit cap that
10 was found in the dirt at the feet of Mr. Goldman, the
11 second victim.
12 There was a dark brown leather glove, a
13 left-handed glove, that was also near the feet of
14 Mr. Goldman, near the knit cap.
15 I observed a ring with, I believe, five keys just
16 below the buttocks of Mr. Goldman.
17 I observed a great deal of blood both on and
18 around the area surrounding Mr. Goldman and Miss Simpson.
19 There were what appeared to be paw prints, or
20 animal prints, that had walked through the blood that was
21 draining downwards down the sidewalk in an easterly
22 direction, towards the sidewalk, from nicole Simpson. I
23 observed these animal tracks to go through the blood
24 eastward and then proceed south along Bundy from the
25 location.
26 Additionally, I observed what appeared to be shoe
27 prints -- bloody shoe prints leading from the area of the
28 two victims up the steps and in a westerly direction along
0021
01 the walkway that was along the north side of the
02 residence. They appeared to go directly by the open front
03 door of the residence and continue in a westerly
04 direction. As they progressed, they began to fade towards
05 the rear of the house -- the actual bloody shoe prints
06 did.
07 There appeared to be several blood droplets among
08 these bloody shoe prints leading away westerly from the
09 bodies. These droplets appeared to have landed straight
10 down on the pavement.
11 Q Let me ask you a question, sir.
12 You indicated that you saw bloody shoe prints in
13 an area -- in a direction that appeared to go away from the
14 bodies, towards the rear of the building?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did you notice any blood drops in that vicinity?
17 A Yes. Again, I did notice several blood drops.
18 Q To what side of the bloody shoe prints?
19 A I believe they were just on the left side, or the
20 south side, for the most part.
21 Q To the south, which would be to the left of the
22 bloody shoe prints?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And if you would, sir, can you describe the
25 nature of the building and the scene as you saw it? In
26 other words, where is the path in relation to the stairs
27 and the landing and the building behind which -- in front
28 of which you found Miss Simpson?
0022
01 A Well, the building itself is a large
02 condominium. It appears to be a duplex, three level.
03 Q If you step up the path, sir, are there -- is
04 there a gate you come to before you would come to the
05 bodies of the victims?
06 A Yes. There is a gate to the east of where the
07 victims were located that I found to be wide open at the
08 time. The gate is serviceable and could be locked from
09 the inside and opened from the inside without a key;
10 however, from the outside one would need a key.
11 Additionally, there is an outside latch that
12 would have to be activated in order to get in after one
13 keyed their way in or someone on the inside would allow
14 them to go in.
15 Q You observed the operation of that gate, I take
16 it, personally?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Is there a way from the inside of the house
19 you can press a button to open the gate electronically?
20 A There is an inside release button, but I could
21 not activate it. To me it was unserviceable at that
22 time.
23 Q And at that time was what time?
24 A Well, the morning of the crime scene
25 investigation and during subsequent visits to the crime
26 scene.
27 Q So as of June 13, the morning of June 13, you
28 found the release button on the inside of the residence to
0023
01 be inoperable; that is, it would not open the gate?
02 A Yes.
03 Q And based on your observation, you were able
04 to manually unlatch the gate if you went down to it and
05 unlatched it?
06 A From the inside?
07 Q Yes.
08 A Yes.
09 Q But you would have to do that in order to open
10 it?
11 A Well, the inner knob is a smooth knob. The outer
12 knob, towards the street, is keyed. So from the inside you
13 could open it by the knob; but one would have to, if they
14 were opening it from the inside, reach over the gate and
15 undo the latch on the outside.
16 Q As well?
17 A Yes.
18 Q You indicated, I think, you found Miss Simpson up
19 against or next to the stairs that were leading up to the
20 landing that leads to the front door?
21 A She was lying more or less on her left side, in
22 what I would term a semifetal position, with the head in a
23 north by northeasterly direction.
24 Q After you go up those stairs, if you were
25 going to go to the back alley, can you describe the path
26 that you would take?
27 A To the back alley from that location?
28 Q Yes.
0024
01 A Yes.
02 There are three or four steps leading, above
03 where she was located, to a porch area; and then there are,
04 I believe, two more steps up another area towards the front
05 door, which would be off to one's left if you were walking
06 in a westerly direction.
07 That pathway continues westerly to the point
08 where there is a small gate. One would go through the
09 latch gate and then descend several steps to a lower area,
10 where the housekeeper's quarters would probably be located,
11 and proceed along that area to a point where there are some
12 more steps going up, another level area; and one would
13 eventually reach a locking gate similar to the front gate,
14 located at the northwest corner of the property. This
15 particular gate had a dead-bolt lock, again, accessible
16 from the inside and not the outside.
17 Q So from the pathway that is perpendicular to
18 the sidewalk, you would go up some stairs, across a
19 landing, down some stairs and out through a rear gate to
20 a driveway area that is near -- that is in front of the
21 garage, that leads to an alley?
22 A Yes. The residence driveway is to the rear
23 there.
24 Q And the alley runs north/south?
25 A Yes.
26 Q Did you also look at the inside of the house
27 at 875 south Bundy?
28 A Yes.
0025
01 Q When you saw that house, sir, can you describe
02 the position of the front door?
03 A When I observed it, the front door was wide open.
04 Q Is that the way, if you know, in which it was
05 found by the first officer?
06 A That was my information, yes.
07 Q Showing you now a photograph that appears to
08 be -- has the number 104 in it --
09 ms. clark: I ask this be marked People's --
10 the court: 10.
11 ms. clark: -- 10.
12 Thank you, your Honor.
13 Q -- Can you tell us what that is, sir?
14 A Yes.
15 This is the white envelope I mentioned
16 previously, located between both victims, on the ground,
17 with the prescription -- what appeared to be prescription
18 glasses in it.
19 Q Did you see any writing on that envelope, sir?
20 A Eventually, when it was turned over, I did see
21 some writing on the face side, something to the effect of
22 "nicole Simpson, prescription glasses."
23 Q Do you see a pattern I am pointing out now just
24 below that white envelope that appears to be a pattern in
25 blood?
26 A Yes.
27 Q Did you observe that when you were at the scene
28 that morning?
0026
01 A Yes.
02 Q On June 13?
03 A Yes.
04 Q What was that, sir, or what did it appear to
05 you to be?
06 A it appeared to me to be a bloody shoe print of
07 some type.
08 Q You indicated, I think, earlier in your
09 testimony you saw a few bloody shoe prints leading away
10 from the bodies of the victims?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did they appear to be the same kind of tread
13 as is shown in People's 10?
14 A They appeared to be consistent, yes.
15 ms. clark: Would the court like to see the
16 photograph?
17 Q Showing you now a photograph with the number
18 103 on it --
19 ms. clark: Ask it be marked People's 11.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 BY ms. clark:
22 Q -- can you tell us what is depicted in that
23 photograph, sir?
24 A This is also, I would like to point out -- there
25 is another what appears to be bloody footprint, the dark
26 blue knit ski-type cap that I described earlier and the
27 aforementioned dark brown leather glove that was located
28 near the feet of Mr. Goldman.
0027
01 Q Do you see, also, what appears to be a bloody
02 print in this photograph as well?
03 A Yeah.
04 Q What was that, sir?
05 A Again, it is a bloody footprint that was
06 consistent with the others that I had seen.
07 Q Shoe print?
08 A Shoe print. I'm sorry.
09 MS. CLARK: And a photograph with the number --
10 another photograph with the number 102 in it, People's
11 12.
12 Q Can you tell us what is depicted there, sir?
13 A This is a close-up shot of the dark brown
14 leather glove that I mentioned.
15 Again, there is a -- appears to be a shoe print
16 of a bloody shoe.
17 MS. CLARK: And a photograph with the toe of a shoe in
18 it, depicting a brown glove and what appears to be blue
19 knit cap, People's 13.
20 Q Showing you People's 13, sir, can you tell me
21 what is shown in that photograph?
22 A This is another photograph of the dark brown
23 leather glove. It shows a portion of the left foot of
24 Mr. Goldman, the victim. It also shows the dark blue ski
25 cap that i mentioned earlier. Again, we have a bloody shoe
26 print depicted.
27 Q Are those the same items depicted in the
28 previous photographs that have numbers on them, sir?
0028
01 A Yes. They are just from a different angle.
02 Q And showing you a photograph that appears to
03 have the numbers 102, 103 and 104 in it --
04 ms. clark: People's 14.
05 THE COURT: I think the last one should have been --
06 okay. The last one was 13?
07 THE CLERK: Right.
08 THE COURT: So this is 14.
09 ms. clark: Is that right?
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 BY ms. clark:
12 Q Showing you People's 14, sir, tell us what that
13 depicts.
14 A This is more or less an overall shot of the
15 direct crime scene after the victims had been removed,
16 indicating the aforementioned white envelope with the
17 glasses, the dark brown leather glove, the blue ski cap and
18 the shoe prints.
19 Q Is that the perspective shot of all of the items
20 in the one picture you have been shown, that we have talked
21 about?
22 A Yes.
23 ms. clark: A picture with the No. 107 in it, People's
24 15.
25 Q Can you tell us, sir, if you notice any what
26 appear to be blood patterns reflecting a shoe print that
27 you have previously described in that photograph?
28 A This is a photograph at the stoop, or stairs,
0029
01 where nicole Simpson was located, looking in a westerly
02 direction. It appears to be an outline of the shoe print
03 on the first step leading up in a westerly direction, in a
04 large pool of blood.
05 Q The sheet shown in that photograph, sir, with
06 the number 107 on it, is that where you found
07 Miss Brown?
08 A Yes.
09 MS. CLARK: And People's 16.
10 Q Please tell us what is depicted in this
11 photograph, sir.
12 A 16 is the right foot -- beneath the right foot
13 of Mr. Goldman, the victim, depicting the sole and heel
14 of his right shoe.
15 Q And why did you want that photograph taken, sir?
16 A It was important to us to determine whether or
17 not the victims had any blood on the soles or heels of
18 their shoes.
19 Q Were you also interested in seeing the pattern of
20 the soles of the shoes?
21 A Yes; that, also.
22 Q Was Miss Brown wearing any shoes?
23 A No. She was barefoot.
24 Q Can you describe for us, sir, what Miss Brown was
25 wearing at the time that you saw her?
26 A She was wearing what I describe as a black shift
27 or cocktail dress, sleeveless. It had one strap around the
28 neck.
0030
01 Q A halter dress?
02 A Halter dress, yes.
03 Q Can you describe for us what ron Goldman was
04 wearing when you saw him?
05 A He was wearing some type of levi's. He was
06 wearing athletic-type -- what I describe as perhaps
07 athletic-type boots that were secured high on his ankle.
08 He had on a light-colored plaid, long-sleeve shirt.
09 Q When you first arrived at the scene, sir, had
10 anyone yet been able to identify ron Goldman?
11 A No. He had not been identified.
12 Q If you know, at some point -- was he identified
13 at some point during that morning?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And how did that come about?
16 A Once the coroner's representative had arrived, a
17 search was made of his pockets and his driver's license was
18 recovered.
19 ms. clark: I would like to mark a photograph of what
20 appears to be a driver's license People's 17.
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 BY ms. clark:
23 Q Showing you People's 17, sir, tell us if you
24 recognize what I am showing you.
25 A Yes. That is a photograph of Mr. Goldman's
26 driver's license as well as a photograph of a union bank
27 card.
28 Q Is that the driver's license that you saw that
0031
01 was retrieved from the pocket of Mr. Goldman?
02 A Yes.
03 Q If you would, sir, can you describe the
04 lighting as you found it when you arrived at the scene
05 of 875 south Bundy?
06 A When I arrived initially, there was a porch light
07 on over the front door -- the ceiling-type light. There
08 was a small light located to the south of the stationary
09 gate near where Miss Simpson was located, a lamp that shown
10 directly straight up.
11 There was a very dim malibu light located east of
12 the location. And as far as overhead street lights, there
13 was one to the east of the location on the street; however,
14 the illumination appeared to have no bearing on the scene
15 itself.
16 There was an additional hanging lamp on the
17 northeast corner of dorothy and Bundy that gave some
18 indirect lighting on the scene. Additionally, there was
19 a light on the building itself, on the residence, in the
20 southeast corner of the residence, outside, that really
21 had no direct bearing on the immediate scene.
22 Q Overall, sir, would you say that the lighting in
23 the area where the victims were was very well lit, dark?
24 Can you describe --
25 a I wouldn't call it well lit. There was some
26 light, but there is also a great deal of foliage and
27 shrubbery around the area that would block out not only the
28 overhead lighting but some lighting from the residence
0032
01 itself.
02 Q Did you notice whether there was any kind of
03 light on the gate itself?
04 A On the gate?
05 Q Yes; the gate in front of the residence.
06 A Not on the gate.
07 Q What, if any, lighting was there working on
08 the night that you were there that you observed in the
09 front of the house?
10 A Again, initially what I observed was a small
11 light that was planted in the ground near the mailbox south
12 of the victims.
13 Q Was that on?
14 A It was on initially, yes.
15 Q How about the porch light?
16 A The porch light was on.
17 Q How much light did that give?
18 A Not a great deal of light. It did light the
19 area, but it was not what I would call a great deal of
20 light.
21 ms. clark: Your Honor, I have here a photograph. I
22 am going to ask it be marked People's 17 --
23 THE COURT: 18.
24 ms. clark: -- 18.
25 Thank you.
26 Q Showing you People's 18, sir, can you please tell
27 us what is depicted in that photograph?
28 A This is a photograph looking in a northwesterly
0033
01 direction of the victim Mr. Goldman.
02 Q And that depicts the body of the victim
03 Mr. Goldman as you found him, sir?
04 A Yes.
05 Q In that photograph can you see the envelope you
06 have earlier described, that bore the writing of "nicole
07 Simpson, prescription glasses"?
08 A Yes.
09 Q You described for us earlier, sir, a blood
10 trail that went from the area where the victims were found
11 to the outer area -- all the way out to the alley behind
12 the house?
13 A Yes.
14 ms. clark: I have a series of photographs, your
15 Honor, "A" through "G." Ask they be marked People's 19.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 ms. clark: And another three photographs
18 collectively, ask they be marked as People's 20.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 BY ms. clark:
21 Q First of all, sir, I am showing you People's
22 19.
23 If you would, please describe what is shown in
24 each photograph and, as best you can, describe the location
25 in which we see each of the markers.
26 A The photograph "A," this is looking in a westerly
27 direction. This is the walkway described earlier. The
28 victims would have been found below this photograph. This
0034
01 is the first landing area. These three steps lead up to
02 the front entrance, which is just off to the left here.
03 The numbers depicted were placed there by the
04 criminalist, indicate blood droplets that were located.
05 Item -- photograph "B" is a close-up of no. 112,
06 a blood droplet.
07 Photograph "C," item 113, depicted overall in
08 photograph "A," is another close-up of an apparent blood
09 droplet.
10 Photograph "D" indicates a stairwell on the
11 walkway, overall depicted in photograph "A," leading in a
12 westerly direction downwards.
13 Here we have item 114, which is an overall of a
14 blood droplet. The close-up of the blood droplet is
15 indicated in photograph "E."
16 Photograph "D," we have various letters. These
17 are corresponding to bloody shoe prints that I alluded to
18 earlier.
19 Q Letters, sir?
20 Are you talking about other markings that are on
21 that photograph?
22 A Yes.
23 Q A-G, A-H, A-I, A-J, A-K, etc.?
24 A Yes.
25 These were placed by the criminalist.
26 Q To mark the bloody shoe prints?
27 A Yes.
28 Photograph "F," again, is looking westerly. That
0035
01 is the rear gate of the property, located in the -- here is
02 the gate located in the northwest corner of the property.
03 These are the stairs going up. Here you see an overall
04 shot of item 115.
05 Photograph "G" is a close-up of that which
06 appears to be a blood droplet.
07 Q That photograph "F," sir, does that show the rear
08 gate that opens out to the garage and alley area?
09 A Yes.
10 Q Now showing you People's 20, will you tell us
11 what is depicted in those photos, "A," "B" and "C"; and
12 describe the location that is shown in those photographs.
13 A photograph "a" is a close-up of the rear gate,
14 what appears to be blood, blood droplets.
15 item "b," photograph "b," again, is an overall
16 depiction of what appears to be a blood droplet; and a
17 close-up of that is indicated in photograph "c."
18 Q So that is the outer area that actually is the
19 driveway of the garage and alley?
20 A Yes.
21 This is the -- just off to the left here would be
22 the vehicle, the cherokee vehicle, that belonged to
23 Miss Simpson.
24 Q You are indicating photograph "b" there, sir?
25 A photograph "b."
26 This is looking in a north by northwesterly
27 direction. The alley would be -- the north/south alley
28 would be depicted at the top here from left to right.
0036
01 Q And in photograph -- you indicate in photograph
02 "a" -- is that gate?
03 A Yes.
04 Q When you were at the crime scene that morning,
05 on June 13, did you notice the position of that gate that
06 is shown in photograph "a"?
07 A The gate was in the open position.
08 Q To your knowledge, was it open at the time the
09 first officer arrived?
10 A My recollection is that it was ajar, somewhat
11 open; It wasn't secured.
12 Q It wasn't locked?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Sir, is it part of your duties as an
15 investigating officer to direct the collection of
16 evidence and the TAKING of photographs?
17 A Yes; working with the criminalist.
18 Q And so at the crime scene, you assess what you
19 think is important, what is evidence and should be
20 preserved either by photographing or collection or both?
21 A Yes.
22 Q In this particular case, sir, the blood drops
23 you have described in People's 19 and 20, did you direct
24 that these photographs be taken?
25 A Yes.
26 Q Why?
27 A The -- it was apparent to me that these blood
28 droplets were not directly associated with the victims
0037
01 and that they were perhaps in association with the
02 bloody shoe prints leading from the scene. It was also
03 apparent that they would be connected to a suspect in
04 this -- in this instance.
05 Q So what were your instructions to the criminalist
06 with respect to these blood drops you have identified in
07 People's 19 and 20?
08 A To photograph, preserve and collect these
09 exhibits.
10 Q And with respect to all of the items you have
11 previously identified in photographs we have marked
12 during the course of your testimony, were those all
13 items that you requested be collected by the criminalist
14 and photographed in places they were found?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And are they depicted in the photographs as you
17 found them, sir?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now, did you attend the autopsies in this case?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And observed them both -- nicole brown and ron
22 Goldman?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Showing you the exhibits previously marked as
25 People's 3 and People's 2, can you tell me whether these
26 are the people whose autopsies you were present at with
27 respect to this case, please?
28 A Yes.
0038
01 People's 2, I believe it is Mr. Goldman.
02 People's 3 is, in fact, Miss Nicole brown.
03 Q In your presence, sir, were blood samples
04 taken from each of those people?
05 A Yes.
06 Q And did you retrieve those vials of blood that
07 were given to you -- that were made by the coroner
08 during the course of the autopsy?
09 A Actually, my partner, detective Vannatter,
10 retrieved them on the following day. I believe it was June
11 15.
12 Q Sir, are you familiar with the term D.R. number?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What is that?
15 A D.R. are the letters for what in LAPD we term a
16 division of records number. This is a number that is
17 assigned to a particular crime, to a particular victim.
18 The first two digits would indicate the year.
19 Something occurring this year would be preceded by a number
20 94.
21 The second two digits would indicate the
22 geographical division involved. In this case,
23 geographically, west Los Angeles division is 8; so it would
24 be 08.
25 And the five subsequent numbers are the
26 individual report numbers.
27 Q And is there a D.R. number assigned to this case,
28 sir?
0039
01 A There are two D.R. numbers, one for each
02 victim.
03 Q Do you know what they are?
04 A 94-08-17431 and -32.
05 Q The -31 number, is that the main number?
06 A Yes. It is what we call the key number. It
07 would be the first number obtained, that all subsequent
08 reports would be keyed off.
09
10
11
0040
01 Q And the -32 number exists to designate a
02 second victim?
03 A Yes.
04 Q Is all of the evidence collected in this case
05 assigned that D.R. number?
06 A Yes.
07 Q And which one would it be assigned, the -31 or
08 the -32 number?
09 A The first one, the -31 number.
10 Q So if it bears that number, it indicates it
11 was the evidence recovered in this case?
12 A Yes.
13 MS. CLARK: May I have a moment, Your Honor?
14 THE COURT: Yes.
15 MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.
16 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro.
17 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, thank you very much, Your Honor.
18
19 CROSS-EXAMINATION
20
21 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
22 Q Good morning, Detective Lange.
23 A Good morning.
24 Q Is this case still in the process of an
25 on-going investigation?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And have you from the onset until the present
28 time been getting leads on possible other suspects?
0041
01 A Yes.
02 Q And are you investigating those leads?
03 A Personally, I am not. At this particular
04 point they are being gathered, categorized, and we're
05 assigning them out as quickly as we can.
06 Q Who is in charge of investigating other leads?
07 A At this point, it's detective Paine.
08 Q And how many people are under his direction
09 investigating these other leads?
10 A The number varies. Again, we're trying to
11 prioritize the amount of information we're getting. He
12 probably will have anywhere from six to ten or perhaps
13 more people, depending on the amount of information
14 coming in.
15 Q Do you know what stage these leads are in, in
16 terms of development?
17 A Very, very early, I would say.
18 Q According to all the information you have
19 received, was the first call relative to this
20 investigation a call that there was a burglary suspect
21 at 874 south Bundy drive?
22 A It seems to me there was a call to that
23 effect, a prowler or something like that. I don't
24 recall exactly.
25 Q Do you have any records of the first call that
26 was received that resulted in this investigation?
27 A I believe we might have. I haven't checked
28 that. I don't know for sure.
0042
01 Q And the officers who took that call, are they
02 required to record that type of call?
03 A The officers who responded to this --
04 Q No, who received the call, that there was a
05 burglary suspect.
06 A Well, I'm sure they'd record it, yes.
07 There's a daily field activity report that most units
08 fill out that they'd have it on.
09 Q The exact time of the radio call and the type
10 of the call are required by L.A.P.D. policy to be
11 recorded, are they not?
12 A They certainly should be, yes.
13 Q Do you have any information as to how that
14 call regarding a burglar suspect at Bundy was
15 broadcasted?
16 A No, I don't. Again, I'm not familiar with
17 the particular details of that radio call. It's just
18 my knowledge that I believe there was a previous call to
19 that location.
20 Q Do you have any information that this call was
21 broadcast on June 13th, 1994, at approximately 0010
22 hours?
23 A Do I have information?
24 Q Yes.
25 A It is -- there's very possibly information in
26 the book.
27 Q And do you have -- would this radio call be a
28 high priority call?
0043
01 A It would depend. If a suspect were at the
02 location at that time, it would be a high priority
03 call. If the suspect had left, not necessarily, unless
04 the suspect's still in the area.
05 Again, I don't know what the details were on
06 that call.
07 Q Was the location of this call, 874 south
08 Bundy, directly across the street from the homicide
09 scene?
10 A I don't recall the address.
11 Q Do you have any records of that?
12 A I believe there are some records. It seems
13 to me it was right in the vicinity, though, yes.
14 Q If it was 874 south Bundy drive, would that be
15 directly across the street from the homicide scene?
16 A Yes, it would.
17 Q Did you or anyone under your staff -- anyone
18 in your staff locate the person who initiated this phone
19 call?
20 A I did not, and I'm not aware of anyone else
21 who did, other than the responding officers perhaps.
22 Q Did you or anyone under your direction
23 interview anybody at 874 south Bundy?
24 A I honestly can't give you an answer. We've
25 done in excess of a hundred interviews and we've had
26 perhaps a dozen investigators doing this. We have
27 information coming in all the time. I really don't
28 know.
0044
01 Q Does a radio call of this nature cause to be
02 generated an incident report?
03 A It would probably depend on whether or not a
04 crime has occurred. If it were just a prowler call,
05 perhaps it would just be a mention in their activities
06 report. If a crime had occurred, then, of course,
07 they'd be required to take a crime report.
08 Q What if it said, "burglary suspect there now
09 at 874 south Bundy drive"? Would that type of radio
10 call generate an incident report?
11 A Not necessarily.
12 Q Do you know if an incident report was
13 generated?
14 A No, I don't.
15 Q If such a report was generated, would that be
16 included in the murder book?
17 A I would hope we would eventually get that.
18 Q Have you seen such a report in the murder
19 book?
20 A I don't recall seeing a report to that effect.
21 Q Was there any report that the burglary suspect
22 that was there was a Caucasian?
23 A Again, Mr. Shapiro, I'm not familiar with the
24 details of that report.
25 Q Now, are the first officers at the scene
26 required to protect the crime scene and cordon off the
27 vulnerable areas?
28 A Yes.
0045
01 Q Are the officers required to determine if an
02 ambulance crew or any other person moved the body or any
03 other items within the crime scene?
04 A It would be helpful, but they're not
05 necessarily required to do that.
06 Q Are the officers required to record the names,
07 addresses and date of births and telephone numbers of
08 all persons at the crime scene?
09 A That's preferable again, yes.
10 Q If an ambulance crew is present, are the
11 officers required to record their names, serial numbers,
12 and obtain a rescue report?
13 A They should do that, yes, on a crime scene
14 log. That's correct.
15 Q Was such a crew there?
16 A I don't believe so.
17 Q Would you check your chronological record,
18 please.
19 A Yes.
20 If you give me a moment. There are several
21 logs from several incidents here.
22 Q Maybe I can help you with that.
23 Why don't you look at --
24 A I believe I have it, thank you.
25 Q -- 00038.
26 A Yes, I have it, thank you.
27 Q Does that indicate whether any emergency
28 crews were there other than police?
0046
01 A I'm checking. It's quite lengthy. I wasn't
02 there to observe. If I may have a moment.
03 There is an indication of a Los Angeles Fire
04 Department captain at the scene. It states here he was
05 not needed. This does not necessarily mean that this
06 was a paramedic, but a representative from the L.A. Fire
07 Department.
08 Q Have you ever talked to that person?
09 A No.
10 Q Has anybody, to your knowledge, talked to that
11 person?
12 A To my knowledge, no, I don't know.
13 Q Has anybody recorded the names of any other
14 personnel that may have been there with the Fire
15 Department?
16 A Well, I'm still checking here. If I could
17 have a moment?
18 Q Pardon?
19 A Can I take a moment? I'm still checking.
20 Q Yes. Let me know when you've had a chance.
21 A Thank you.
22 No, the only representative I see from the
23 Fire Department is that captain.
24 Q Do you know what type of vehicle he arrived
25 in?
26 A No.
27 Q Did anyone check to see whether he inspected
28 the bodies?
0047
01 A That's not indicated. All it says is, "not
02 needed." So --
03 Q My question was did anyone check to see if he
04 went to the bodies at the crime scene?
05 A I don't know.
06 Q Did anyone check to see if he disturbed
07 anything at the crime scene?
08 A I have no knowledge of that.
09 Q Did anyone check to see if he came with a
10 crew?
11 A If he would have come with a crew, their names
12 should have been logged, and all I see is his name, so
13 I'm assuming that he was the only one there.
14 Q Whose responsibility is it to see that no one
15 enters the crime scene?
16 A The officers who would have been assigned to
17 secure the crime scene.
18 Q And who were they?
19 A Again, referring to my log, we have officers
20 Cummings and Sanchez, Mc Allen and Walley, Zeigler, and
21 it appears to be Glorioso. The primary unit, Riske and
22 Terrazas, would probably have had something to do with
23 that. Also assisting officers Gonzales and Aston.
24 Q Have you read any reports that any of these
25 officers generated regarding their observations when
26 they arrived at the scene?
27 MS. CLARK: Objection; irrelevant.
28 THE COURT: Sustained.
0048
01 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
02 Q Have you talked to any of those officers?
03 MS. CLARK: Objection; irrelevant.
04 THE COURT: Sustained.
05 MR. SHAPIRO: May I be heard, Your Honor?
06 THE COURT: Yes.
07 MR. SHAPIRO: I think one of the key issues in this
08 case is whether or not the crime scene was disturbed,
09 and this is foundational for asking those questions.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, if counsel has concerns in
12 that regard, he can certainly subpoena the first officer
13 on the scene who could explain what he did to secure it
14 and how he kept people out of the scene, or perhaps
15 failed to do so. But asking this detective who appeared
16 on the scene some four hours after the first officer
17 appeared is ineffective.
18 There's no way to -- that this officer could
19 possibly know what transpired before he arrived, and
20 asking him what was done and who came in and who did not
21 would call for hearsay and speculation.
22 THE COURT: Well, I think here, since we're back
23 now to the preliminary hearing, if the appropriate
24 foundation had been established with regard to the
25 number of years that this detective has been with the
26 department -- which I believe that was part of your
27 early testimony -- hearsay would probably be admissible,
28 assuming that he's not acting as a mere reader officer
0049
01 and that that information was imparted to him by some
02 other person.
03 So the objection is overruled, subject to the
04 appropriate foundation.
05 MS. CLARK: Thank you, Your Honor.
06 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
07 Q Did you read any of the reports that were
08 generated by any of these officers?
09 A Yes.
10 Q Have you talked to any of these officers?
11 A No.
12 Q Do you know if any -- did you ask them if they
13 did anything at the crime scene upon arrival?
14 A Personally, I did not. It was done by
15 someone else.
16 Q Who was that done by?
17 A detective Phillips.
18 Q And did he report that anything was done at
19 the crime scene by any of these officers?
20 A Well, it's pretty vague. If you'd like, I
21 could tell you what the reports indicated.
22 Q Yes, would you.
23 A The reports -- each officer was interviewed
24 separately as to what they did at the location, where
25 they stood, where they stepped, whether or not they were
26 injured. There are reports as to each officer.
27 Each officer's shoe prints were photographed
28 and they each gave a statement as to exactly what they
0050
01 did at the scene.
02 Q Is there any policy regarding how persons can
03 enter a cordoned off crime scene?
04 A Is there any policy?
05 Q Yes.
06 A Well, again, policy is a guideline. No two
07 crime scenes are alike. Therefore, we have policy,
08 but, again, policy is merely a guideline. It can't
09 dictate to you how to handle any particular crime scene.
10 Q Is the policy generally that no crime scene
11 shall be entered except in the accompaniment of an
12 officer?
13 A You could interpret it as generally being that
14 way, but, again, it's merely a guideline.
15 Q And to caution anybody who does regarding
16 contamination or alteration of evidence?
17 A Certainly.
18 Q Was that done in this case?
19 A Again, I was not present. I would certainly
20 hope it was.
21 Q Now, when -- did you and your partner,
22 detective Vannatter, arrive together or in different
23 vehicles at the Bundy crime scene?
24 A Separately.
25 Q Who arrived first?
26 A detective Vannatter.
27 Q You arrived how much later?
28 A Yes.
0051
01 Q How much later did you arrive, do you know?
02 A Oh, I believe it was approximately 20 or 25
03 minutes.
04 Q And did you observe the crime scene to be
05 secure when you entered?
06 A It was secure in my mind, yes.
07 Q Were the tapes, ropes, barricades, placed in
08 proper positions?
09 A There was yellow police tape that was up, and
10 there were uniformed officers, I believe, stationed at
11 the front and the rear of the location.
12 Q In your opinion, was it properly barricaded?
13 A If you refer to yellow tape as barricades,
14 yes. There were no actual barricades.
15 Q I'm asking in your expertise as the senior
16 member of the special unit whether or not that crime
17 scene was properly cordoned off at the time you arrived.
18 A In my mind, it appeared to be, yes.
19 Q Upon arriving, did you cause to record the
20 weather conditions and the temperature at the crime
21 scene?
22 A Initially, I did not.
23 Q Is there any importance to doing that?
24 A There may be. There may not.
25 Q And what would the importance be?
26 A The importance certainly may be perhaps one
27 factor of many in determining the time of death.
28 Q Is the time of death an important criteria to
0052
01 establish in a homicide investigation?
02 A I would say in most instances, yes.
03 Q In this case, would it be?
04 A Certainly.
05 Q And is it true in your experience that the
06 earlier you begin the investigation process regarding
07 trying to establish the time of death, the more likely
08 you are to establish the time of death?
09 A Not necessarily.
10 Q You would not agree with that?
11 A Well, again, it's a general statement. There
12 would be instances certainly where that would be true,
13 and there would be instances where it wouldn't
14 necessarily be true.
15 Q In this case would it have been true?
16 A Perhaps.
17 Q And you, as the senior detective there, were
18 in charge of alerting the criminalists, the coroner, and
19 any other support unit you would need to conduct the
20 proper investigation; is that correct?
21 A Well, in conjunction with my partner, yes.
22 Q And what time did you notify the coroner's
23 investigative unit to come out to help ascertain the
24 time of death?
25 A I had requested another detective on the scene
26 to make what we call a first call to the coroner's
27 office to alert them what we had.
28 Subsequent to that, another call is made
0053
01 telling them that we're ready for them. I don't recall
02 who made the call.
03 Q Is there any record of that? Is that in your
04 chronological log?
05 A That may well be with the coroner's log.
06 Q Is it in your chronological log?
07 A I don't believe I have it in my chronological
08 log.
09 Q Is that something that you should have in your
10 log?
11 A Not necessarily.
12 Q What time did the coroner's investigators
13 arrive at the crime scene?
14 A Would you like me to refer to the homicide
15 log?
16 Q If you don't know.
17 A I have no personal recollection.
18 Q Do you have a general idea how many hours it
19 was after the initial report?
20 A It seems to me it was probably approximately
21 10:00 o'clock, 9:30, 10:00, 10:15, somewhere in there.
22 But it's only a guess.
23 Q Would you feel more comfortable in reviewing
24 your notes?
25 A It doesn't matter to me. If you'd like me
26 to, if you want a specific time --
27 Q If you're comfortable with that answer,
28 fine. If you're not --
0054
01 A Well, no. Again, you asked me if I had a
02 specific time. If you want, I can look at the log for
03 you. I do not recall a specific time.
04 Q We would like to get the answer that closest
05 resembles what occurred. So if your notes would help
06 in that, we would appreciate it.
07 A Well, it's in the log.
08 Q Please check that, then.
09 A The personnel log at the scene indicates that
10 coroner's representative Ratcliffe arrived at 9:10 a.m.
11 and coroner's representative Jacobo arrived at 9:20 a.m.
12 Q Are you familiar with the term "rigor mortis"?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And is that some -- a factor that's used to
15 determine the time of death?
16 A It can be, yes.
17 Q And in a case involving a homicide like this
18 one, would it be important to try to establish the time
19 of rigor mortis as close to the time of the actual death
20 for establishing later the time of death?
21 A The time of rigor mortis? I don't
22 understand. Rigor mortis is an ongoing thing.
23 Q Is that determination a time determination?
24 In other words, is that a determination that if made
25 earlier is more helpful, or it doesn't matter when it's
26 made?
27 MS. CLARK: Objection. Vague, ambiguous, calls
28 for a conclusion from a nonexpert witness of an expert
0055
01 nature.
02 THE COURT: Sustained.
03 There's no foundation that this detective
04 knows the answer to that.
05 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you, Your Honor.
06 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
07 Q Do you know the answer to those things?
08 A I'm sorry --
09 MS. CLARK: Objection; Your Honor. That was the
10 whole point. No foundation was laid.
11 THE COURT: I think that you'd have to sort of lay
12 the foundation before you ask the general conclusion if
13 there's no answer.
14 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
15 Q Are you an expert in homicide investigations?
16 A I guess that's open to interpretation.
17 Q Have you qualified as an expert in homicide
18 investigations?
19 A I have.
20 Q On how many occasions?
21 A I've been court qualified on at least one
22 occasion in superior and Federal Court.
23 Q Do you consider yourself an expert in homicide
24 investigations?
25 MS. CLARK: Objection; irrelevant.
26 THE COURT: Sustained.
27 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
28 Q Do others consider you an expert in homicide
0056
01 investigations in your department?
02 MS. CLARK: Calls for speculation, irrelevant.
03 Objection.
04 THE COURT: Overruled.
05 THE WITNESS: I -- you would have to ask them.
06 MR. SHAPIRO: Can we call detective Vannatter,
07 please?
08 We'll proceed.
09 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
10 Q You guys are very modest, I must say.
11 Are you familiar with such terms as
12 "lividity," "temperature change," "digestion in the
13 stomach," and "eye fluids" as they relate to time of
14 death?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Are any of those things important criteria in
17 establishing time of death?
18 A They can be.
19 Q Are all of those important criteria in
20 establishing the time of death?
21 A They certainly can be.
22 Q Now, you called for a criminalist to come to
23 the scene; is that correct?
24 A I personally did not, but a --
25 Q At your direction?
26 A Yes.
27 Q At your direction.
28 I know you don't dial the phone for all these
0057
01 things. You're kind of like the coach or the
02 quarterback. You tell other people what to do?
03 A Sometimes.
04 Q Did you in this case?
05 A Yes.
06 Q And that was your job.
07 A Yes.
08 Q And you told somebody for a criminalist to
09 come out.
10 A Yes.
11 Q And the first place you directed the
12 criminalist to come was to Rockingham; isn't that
13 correct?
14 A I don't recall exactly how that happened. I
15 know that he was directed to Rockingham first, though.
16 Q And did you consider Rockingham to be a
17 homicide scene at the time he was directed there?
18 A No.
19 Q Did you consider Bundy to be a homicide scene?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Of the two, which did you consider to be more
22 important in terms of priority to get a criminalist
23 there?
24 A More important to get a criminalist would be
25 Rockingham.
26 Q And that was before you and the other officers
27 made your emergency entry into that location, wasn't it?
28 A I believe the request for a criminalist to
0058
01 test the apparent blood stain on the vehicle was before.
02 Q Was before?
03 A I believe it was.
04 Q You're not --
05 A I'm a little unclear because I left the
06 Rockingham location shortly thereafter to return to the
07 Bundy location.
08 Q Do you have any records to indicate the time
09 that the criminalist arrived at Rockingham?
10 A I was not present when he arrived at
11 Rockingham.
12 Q My question is, do you have any records to
13 indicate the time the criminalist arrived?
14 A I may have in my possession. Like I said,
15 there are many logs here.
16 Q Is that -- well, that's something you are
17 required to record, isn't it, what time a criminalist
18 initially arrives at a crime scene?
19 A Well, I would hope someone would, certainly.
20 Q Would you check who did that and what time the
21 criminalist arrived?
22 A I don't know and I don't have that
23 information. If a separate log was kept after I left
24 the location, I'll have to go through quite a bit of
25 material here.
26 Q You've got your lieutenant here and you've got
27 two deputy district attorneys. Maybe you could take a
28 moment and the four of you might be able to find this.
0059
01 THE COURT: I think, Mr. Shapiro, we'll take the
02 morning recess at this time and that should facilitate.
03 MR. SHAPIRO: That should help in finding it.
04 Thank you, judge.
05
06
07
08 (A recess was taken at 10:26 a.m.)
09
10
0060
01 TOM LANGE,
02 having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand, was
03 examined and testified further as follows:
04 THE COURT: We are again on the record in the case of
05 people v. Simpson. The defendant is present with counsel.
06 The people are represented.
07 Mr. Shapiro.
08 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.
09
10 cross-examination (resumed)
11
12 BY mr. shapiro:
13 Q I believe there was a question pending.
14 A May I have it repeated, please.
15 Q Do you have records to reflect in your
16 chronological log the time the criminalist first arrived at
17 the Rockingham scene?
18 A I don't.
19 Q Did you check with the lieutenant and deputy
20 district attorneys or anyone else?
21 A I checked with my partner at that particular
22 scene, and he indicates there was no log made. And that
23 was not a crime scene at that time. In fact -- would you
24 like me to explain that a little bit?
25 Q I think you have answered the question. Thank
26 you.
27 A Okay.
28 Q Did you file any reports, supplemental reports,
0061
01 or follow-up reports, as to what time the criminalist
02 arrived at the Rockingham location up until and including
03 today?
04 A I didn't. That would be filed by the criminalist
05 himself. He would have his own information, his own log.
06 Q And have you seen such a report?
07 A I haven't seen it, no.
08 Q Do you know if one exists at all?
09 A I am assuming a criminalist's report does
10 exist, yes.
11 Q That would be something you would want to
12 maintain in your murder book, would you not?
13 A Once I get it, yes. We haven't received many
14 things, and that is one of them.
15 Q Isn't the criminalist one of the closest people
16 you work with in a homicide investigation?
17 Ms. clark: Objection. Vague.
18 What does "closest" mean?
19 by Mr. shapiro:
20 Q -- One of the most important?
21 mr. shapiro: I will rephrase that. I think counsel
22 is correct.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 BY mr. shapiro:
25 Q Would you say a criminalist is one of the most
26 important members of your investigative team in a homicide
27 case?
28 A That would depend, certainly, as to evidence at a
0062
01 crime scene. Subsequent to that, not necessarily; but
02 certainly I would say as to collection of evidence.
03 Q In this case would you say he would be one of the
04 most important members of your investigative team?
05 A As to the collection of serological evidence,
06 yes.
07 Q And is that a very important aspect of this
08 case in your opinion?
09 A Yes.
10 Q Is it maybe the most important aspect of your
11 case?
12 A evidencewise, I would say there is a good
13 possibility of that, yes.
14 Q And as of today you still have not received any
15 reports from him? Is that your testimony?
16 A No. I have received reports from him. But the
17 reporting procedure is ongoing. The investigation is
18 ongoing. I get reports from various entities on a daily
19 basis, sometimes as many as 50 or 100 pages of various
20 things.
21 Q When you and your partner and the two West L.A.
22 homicide detectives left Bundy to go to Rockingham, who did
23 you leave in charge of Bundy?
24 A Lt. Rogers.
25 Q Did you instruct him, even though he is your
26 supervisor, as to what to do?
27 A Basically what to do was to secure the scene
28 until I arrived, until I returned.
0063
01 Q Until you came back?
02 A I'm sorry?
03 Q Until you came back?
04 A Yes.
05 Q And that meant not to let anybody in or out and
06 maintain the perimeter?
07 A Not necessarily.
08 Q What did that mean when you told him -- when you
09 gave him instructions that you were leaving?
10 A To secure the location and that we would be
11 returning.
12 Q What did that mean? What were you conveying
13 to Lt. Rogers to do?
14 A That I was leaving for a short time and that I
15 would soon be returning.
16 Q And what was he to do at your direction?
17 A Remain at the premises.
18 Q And do what? Sit there? Go to sleep?
19 Investigate?
20 A Make sure that no one disturbed the crime scene,
21 basically.
22 Q So he was now in charge of no one entering the
23 crime scene area?
24 A No; not necessarily.
25 Q Was he in charge of continuing the investigation
26 at Bundy?
27 A He was in charge of anything that might have come
28 up while he was there until I arrived back.
0064
01 Q Would you say that your investigation had been
02 completed at the Bundy scene at the time you left for
03 Rockingham?
04 A Certainly not. It hadn't started.
05 Q And did you instruct him to do anything regarding
06 the crime scene investigation, as your supervisor, when you
07 left to go to Rockingham?
08 A The instructions were -- it was mutually
09 understood that he would remain there until I returned.
10 There were no specific instructions to do this or to do
11 that.
12 Q Does the murder book or chronological record
13 indicate whether Lt. Rogers conducted a crime scene
14 investigation in your absence?
15 A I don't believe you would find that in there.
16 Q Did you ask him if he did?
17 A No.
18 Q Is that something you would want to know?
19 A If Lt. Rogers conducted the crime scene
20 investigation?
21 Q In your absence.
22 A No.
23 It was a mutual understanding that, in fact, was
24 my duty and I would do that once I returned, perhaps with
25 his assistance.
26 Q What time did you return to begin your crime
27 scene investigation at the Bundy location?
28 A It was approximately 6:45 a.m.
0065
01 Q So that's now 6 hours and 45 minutes after the
02 report -- the last report of the death; is that correct?
03 A Roughly.
04 Q Is there any benefit in starting a crime scene
05 investigation as soon as possible?
06 A There certainly could be.
07 Q Could there be in this case?
08 A Well, that would be open to speculation; and,
09 certainly, down the road we may know more about this case
10 and find out at that time. At this point it is kind of up
11 in the air.
12 Q Based on what you know now, would it have been
13 your preference to conduct a crime scene investigation
14 at Bundy as soon as possible?
15 Ms. clark: Objection. That is irrelevant, and it is
16 vague.
17 THE COURT: Sustained.
18 BY mr. shapiro:
19 Q When you went to Rockingham, did you direct any
20 officers to do a door-to-door search of the surrounding
21 neighbors?
22 Ms. clark: Objection. Vague. Search?
23 THE COURT: Are you talking about the surrounding
24 neighbors of Bundy or Rockingham?
25 Mr. shapiro: At Bundy.
26 THE COURT: At Bundy?
27 Mr. shapiro: Yes.
28 THE COURT: And by "search," just what do you mean?
0066
01 Mr. shapiro: Let me clarify that. That was a very
02 poorly phrased question.
03 Q Did you direct any officers to door-knock
04 surrounding residents to ascertain if anybody saw anything
05 at Bundy?
06 A I don't recall doing that.
07 Q Do you have any notes to reflect you did that?
08 A No.
09 Q Would you say that it would be appropriate to
10 start at 874 south Bundy, where a suspicious person was
11 reported, to begin looking for potential witnesses?
12 A Not necessarily.
13 Q Have you reviewed, up until today, any
14 communication tapes to see if there were any prowler or
15 burglar calls in the immediate area prior to June 13, 1994,
16 at 0110 (sic) hours?
17 A Nothing.
18 Q During your investigation, have you determined
19 if in the last few years there have been any similar
20 homicides reported in Los Angeles?
21 Ms. clark: Objection. Vague.
22 THE COURT: As to "similar"?
23 ms. clark: Similar to what, in what way?
24 by Mr. shapiro:
25 Q -- Similar to --
26 mr. shapiro: Let me rephrase it.
27 THE COURT: All right.
28
0067
01 BY mr. shapiro:
02 Q -- Similar to the homicide you are investigating
03 in this case?
04 ms. clark: Same objection with respect to --
05 the court: You mean a double murder of an adult male
06 and female?
07 Mr. shapiro: Yes. Similar circumstances; that a
08 male and female were murdered under the same or similar
09 circumstances.
10 Q That's one of the things you do in your
11 investigation, isn't it -- see if there are patterns of
12 homicides?
13 Ms. clark: Objection. It is still vague. What
14 circumstances? Males and females are, unfortunately,
15 murdered every day.
16 In what respect is counsel inquiring as to the
17 similarity?
18 THE COURT: Did you look to see if you had any
19 similar sort of crime reports to the incident there on
20 Bundy?
21 THE WITNESS: No, your honor.
22 BY mr. shapiro:
23 Q Are you familiar with something called a homicide
24 manual of the Los Angeles police department?
25 A Yes.
26 Q And, I take it, you read that; you follow that?
27 A I have read it. It hasn't been updated in a
28 number of years. And I am familiar with it.
0068
01 Q So you think the manual is out of date?
02 A Well, it certainly could be. It is not a
03 Hard-and-fast text on how to conduct a homicide
04 investigation.
05 Q Do you agree with the statement in the homicide
06 manual that the preliminary investigation at the scene is
07 the most important and possibly the most sensitive aspect
08 of the homicide investigation?
09 A I am a little ambivalent about that. Yes and
10 no.
11 It certainly is important. It is not necessarily
12 the most important thing that exists.
13 Q Would you agree with this statement in the
14 manual: that good note-keeping is the foundation of a good
15 homicide investigator?
16 A That is a basic that is certainly preferable,
17 yes.
18 Q Do you agree with this statement in the
19 manual: that accurate, comprehensive and chronological
20 notes not only coordinate the investigation but allow the
21 detective to present the possible case in court, sometimes
22 years later?
23 A Once again, as a guideline, under perfect
24 circumstances, it is certainly something you would want,
25 yes.
26 Q Were field interview cards completed on all
27 possible witnesses?
28 A We have over a hundred witnesses.
0069
01 No. I don't believe so.
02 Q Were neighbors interviewed in the direct
03 proximity of the crime scene who did not hear anything
04 unusual between 10 o'clock and 12 o'clock?
05 A I haven't had a chance to review all of the
06 neighbors' statements; So I am not sure whether a
07 recordation was made of that.
08 Q Were any crime scene broadcasts initiated?
09 A Again, I haven't reviewed the communications
10 tape; so I don't know.
11 Q Did you order that there be no smoking or eating
12 permitted within the crime scene area?
13 A I did not.
14 Q Have you obtained a detailed report of what all
15 the officers at the crime scene reported and the actions
16 they took immediately upon arrival at the crime scene?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Have you ascertained how many officers had gained
19 entry into the crime scene prior to your arrival?
20 A Yes.
21 That should be contained within the statements.
22 Q Have you asked the officers to recreate their
23 movements?
24 A Yes.
25 I have not personally. It was done by detective
26 phillips.
27 Q But that is all recorded --
28 A At my direction, Yes.
0070
01 Q Did you ascertain if any officers smoked at the
02 crime scene?
03 A That, too, would be contained in their
04 statements.
05 Q Did you ascertain if any of the officers or
06 any media personnel drank any coffee at the crime
07 scenes?
08 Ms. clark: Objection. That is vague.
09 THE COURT: When you say "crime scenes," do you
10 mean now both Rockingham and Bundy?
11 Mr. shapiro: Both.
12 Well, there are three crime scenes. There's
13 chicago --
14 Q Would you agree there are three crime scenes in
15 this investigation?
16 A I would agree there are two and perhaps a
17 third which I will term a potential crime scene.
18 Q Let's talk about the two that you would term as
19 crime scenes.
20 Do you have knowledge of anybody drinking
21 coffee in the areas of the crime scenes after they were
22 cordoned off?
23 A At the scene, directly at the scene?
24 No, I don't. I am not aware of anyone who was
25 drinking coffee.
26 Q As the officer in charge, would you say that
27 both crime scenes were protected from destruction or
28 contamination of evidence by onlookers as well as news
0071
01 media personnel?
02 A Number one, I was primarily in charge of the
03 investigation of the Bundy scene. I was not at the
04 Rockingham scene but for a short time. I was -- and the
05 Bundy scene was, in fact, secure, yes.
06 Q Who was in charge of the Rockingham scene?
07 A Detective Vannatter.
08 Q Would you agree or disagree that standing or
09 walking at the crime scene, leaning against doors, walls
10 or windows may destroy valuable evidence, latent
11 fingerprints, hair or skin specimens?
12 A Possibly.
13 ms. clark: objection. Irrelevant.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 mr. shapiro: If I may just have a moment, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 BY mr. shapiro:
18 Q Did you determine if any police officer checked
19 the shoes of the witnesses who discovered the bodies?
20 A It was related to me that -- I believe, that was
21 done around the time that the dog's paws were observed; but
22 i did not direct that or have personal knowledge of that.
23 Q Are there any reports to indicate that was done?
24 A There may well be. I haven't had time to review
25 those.
26 Q Is there somebody you can check with now to see
27 if there are such notes?
28 A Well, again, all of the notes and statements
0072
01 aren't in.
02 I suppose I could check the officers section. I
03 am not aware if that would be in there or not, though.
04 Q How many footprints that would relate to shoes
05 in blood did you observe at Bundy?
06 A I don't have a number.
07 Q Has anybody calculated the number?
08 A That was assigned to the criminalist.
09 Again, as the footprints moved away in a westerly
10 direction, they faded; so I don't know that you would get
11 an accurate number. But they were charted by the
12 criminalist.
13 Q They were?
14 A I'm sorry?
15 Q They were or weren't?
16 A Charted?
17 Q They were charted?
18 A Well, by "charted," I am referring to
19 photographed and measured. And I requested a so-called
20 stride analysis.
21 Q Have you received that yet?
22 A No.
23 Again, I may have it in my reports. I have
24 hundreds. I haven't been through them all.
25 Q Would you check because we have not received that
26 yet, either.
27 A There is a good chance we haven't, either.
28 ms. clark: I would ask we conduct this discovery
0073
01 procedure off the record, then.
02 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, you are entitled to that; but
03 let's have the witness check on that --
04 mr. shapiro: Thank you. I am not going to ask him to
05 do that now.
06 THE COURT: Okay.
07 by mr. shapiro:
08 Q Were you able to determine whether the blood
09 imprints from the shoe were all from the same shoe?
10 Ms. clark: Objection. That calls for speculation.
11 No foundation.
12 THE COURT: Are you able to give an answer to that
13 question?
14 THE WITNESS: No, your honor.
15 BY mr. shapiro:
16 Q Has anybody reported to you there was more than
17 one type of shoe print with blood on it at the scene?
18 A No.
19 Q Have you talked to the criminalist about this?
20 A In regards to these shoe prints, no.
21 Q Is that something you would deem important?
22 Ms. clark: Well, objection. Vague -- something that
23 he would deem important.
24 THE COURT: Speaking to the criminalist about the
25 shoes?
26 Mr. shapiro: Yes.
27 ms. clark: What about the shoes, though? That they
28 existed; they were the same shoe; it was the same tread;
0074
01 they existed at all; where they were found?
02 THE COURT: I interpret the question is whether
03 there was more than one maker of the shoe prints.
04 mr. shapiro: That was my understanding.
05 THE COURT: With that understanding, can you answer
06 that?
07 THE WITNESS: Yes. And it is my belief that the shoe
08 prints probably belong to a suspect or were left by a
09 suspect, and we would certainly like to find out what type
10 of shoes they are.
11 BY mr. shapiro:
12 Q I'm sorry. Your voice is trailing. I couldn't
13 hear the end of the answer.
14 A Could you repeat the question again? I want to
15 give you an accurate answer.
16 Q Have you discussed with the criminalist whether
17 or not the blood prints from the shoes indicate one pair of
18 shoes or more than one pair of shoes?
19 A In a general discussion at the time at the crime
20 scene location, it was the opinion of the criminalist that
21 it appeared they were one.
22 To my knowledge, these prints have not been
23 analyzed and the work has not been completed; so I have
24 made no other requests at this time and had no other
25 conversations regarding them.
26 Q Do you have a report indicating how many spots of
27 blood were found at the Bundy residence -- that you have
28 referred to as drops -- that did not belong to nicole brown
0075
01 or ronald Goldman?
02 A I may have that report, yes.
03 Q Do you know offhand how many that was?
04 A It seems to me it was initially five droplets
05 on the walkway.
06
0076
01 Q And have you or anybody at your direction
02 ascertained when those droplets originated?
03 A When?
04 Q Yes. How long they had been there.
05 A I don't believe there's any way to determine
06 that.
07 MR. SHAPIRO: I don't have any further questions at
08 this time, Your Honor, thank you.
09 THE COURT: Thank you.
10 Ms. Clark, do you have any redirect?
11 MS. CLARK: Yes, thank you, Your Honor.
12
13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
14
15 BY MS. CLARK:
16 Q Sir, do you have other detectives assisting
17 you on this case besides detective Vannatter?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And is it fairly common in the homicide
20 special section to have other detectives in the unit
21 assist in the investigation of one team of detectives?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And are you aware at this time of every piece
24 of work or report that each of those detectives have
25 generated?
26 A No.
27 Q Would you say that this investigation is in --
28 is an ongoing one, with reports being generated every
0077
01 day?
02 A Yes.
03 Q As time goes by, do you expect to catch up
04 with the reports that have been generated in this case?
05 A I hope so.
06 Q And to read everything that you have?
07 A Yes.
08 Q And to confer with all of the experts in the
09 case?
10 A Yes.
11 Q With respect to the criminalist, sir, at this
12 time the shoe prints have been preserved with respect to
13 the blood and the swabbing and the photographing; is
14 that correct?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Has there been any attempt to analyze those
17 shoe prints any further at this point by that
18 criminalist?
19 A I don't believe so.
20 Q Is it your intention to have that done?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Are there many things that you intend to have
23 done in this case before it proceeds to trial?
24 A Yes.
25 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object to
26 the form of the question. It assumes a fact that the
27 court is going to hopefully determine.
28 THE COURT: Sustained.
0078
01 MR. SHAPIRO: Motion to strike the answer.
02 THE COURT: Stricken.
03 MS. CLARK: All I meant -- I'm sorry.
04 BY MS. CLARK:
05 Q All I meant by that was as the case goes on,
06 there's going to be many things for you to do, assuming
07 the case goes on?
08 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, we have a man who's in
09 custody without bail, and I think that's a very improper
10 question and is very prejudicial.
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 BY MS. CLARK:
13 Q Let me ask you this, sir.
14 In the course of every case that you have
15 handled -- and you indicated you've handled 2- to 300
16 homicides?
17 A Yes.
18 Q -- is the investigation always ongoing?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And at the stage of a preliminary hearing for
21 every one of those homicides, is the investigation an
22 ongoing thing?
23 A Yes.
24 Q With many things left to do at the stage of
25 the preliminary hearing?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And this case is no exception.
28 A That's correct.
0079
01 Q Is it unusual to get leads regarding multiple
02 suspects during an investigation, sir?
03 A No.
04 Q In fact, during the course of an entire case?
05 A No.
06 Q And if you don't personally go out to
07 investigate those leads, you do assign those leads to be
08 investigated by someone.
09 A Yes.
10 Q You were asked by counsel why you didn't look
11 for other similar homicides.
12 A I believe it was something like that, yes.
13 Q And you indicated you did not.
14 A Yes.
15 Q Why?
16 A Well, again, we're in the early, early stages
17 in this investigation. At this particular point, this
18 would not be an appropriate time to do it. There is a
19 suspect in custody and we are proceeding against that
20 particular suspect.
21 Eventually, this is probably something that
22 very possibly could be done or it may not be done.
23 Q And when we say "similar homicides," did you
24 understand that to mean like a serial killing?
25 A I didn't know exactly what he was referring
26 to.
27 Q Sir, is it common in an investigation,
28 particularly with respect to a homicide, to have
0080
01 neighbors in the immediate vicinity contacted by police
02 officers to determine what, if anything, they saw or
03 heard?
04 A Yes.
05 Q Was that done in this case?
06 A Yes.
07 Q And although -- did you direct that it be
08 done?
09 A Yes.
10 Q Now, you indicated that in the log a captain
11 of the Fire Department did show up on the scene and it
12 was indicated in your log that he was not needed.
13 Is that correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Does it indicate in your log how long he was
16 at the scene?
17 A If I could consult the log.
18 Q Certainly.
19 A The log indicates he was at the scene for five
20 minutes.
21 Q Five minutes.
22 A Yes.
23 Q In your experience, sir, is it common for
24 captains of the Fire Department to interact with the
25 bodies of homicide victims?
26 A It would depend. Possibly. Perhaps not.
27 Q The fact that he was shown to be there only
28 five minutes with an indication that he was not needed,
0081
01 what did that mean to you?
02 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection; calls for speculation.
03 THE COURT: Overruled.
04 THE WITNESS: Told me it would mean that he was
05 aware that the incident had occurred and he was dropping
06 by as the supervisor to see if the fire department's
07 assistance might be needed for anything.
08 BY MS. CLARK:
09 Q Did it indicate to you that he had had any
10 interaction with the bodies of the victims?
11 A No.
12 Q did it indicated to you that it did not?
13 Did that indicate to you that he did not have any
14 interaction with the bodies of the victims?
15 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection; calls for speculation.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 BY MS. CLARK:
18 Q Okay. In your experience, sir, is it
19 generally the paramedics who have interaction with the
20 bodies?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And when that occurs before you arrive at a
23 crime scene, in your experience, sir, when you come on
24 the scene after they have attended to the bodies, is
25 there some way that you can tell they have been there
26 before you?
27 A Yes. They will leave an ambulance slip.
28 Q An ambulance slip?
0082
01 A Ambulance slip indicating they've been there,
02 and the unit and time of death, this type of thing.
03 Q Is there something about the condition of the
04 bodies of the victims that tells you that paramedics
05 have been there to attend to them before you arrive?
06 A Sometimes if paramedics have been there the
07 body position will be altered.
08 Q Have you ever seen the electrocardiogram, the
09 pads that they use for reviving someone that they place
10 on them to revive the heart?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And did you see that in this case?
13 A No.
14 Q But that is frequently left on the bodies of
15 victims when paramedics have attended to them before
16 you've arrived?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Was there anything about the bodies as you saw
19 them in this case that indicated to you that they had
20 been disturbed by anyone in any way?
21 A No.
22 Q Do you happen to know when the coroner's
23 investigator arrived?
24 A I have that notated here in my log. If I
25 may.
26 Investigator Ratcliffe arrived at 9:10 a.m.
27 Q Where were you at that time, sir?
28 A I was at the Bundy location.
0083
01 Q So you saw the coroner's investigator arrive?
02 A Yes.
03 Q Isn't it policy, sir, that no one is to touch
04 the body of a victim before the coroner's investigator
05 arrives?
06 A That's correct.
07 Q And you were present when that coroner's
08 investigator got there.
09 A Yes.
10 Q You indicated, I think, that you did not
11 direct anyone to not smoke or drink at the crime scene
12 at 875 south Bundy.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Why didn't you?
15 A It's generally a given that an officer has
16 been trained and knows better than to smoke or eat at a
17 crime scene.
18 If someone had been observed doing that, we
19 would have jumped on them right away. That is not
20 tolerated at a crime scene, and that's general
21 knowledge.
22 Q So when there's tape around a scene that has
23 been secured with the police tape as a barrier, whatever
24 is inside that scene, no one is allowed to go in there
25 and do anything like smoke or drink or eat.
26 A That's correct.
27 Q And if something like that were to occur, it
28 would be very unusual?
0084
01 A Yes.
02 Q And a report would be made?
03 A Certainly.
04 Q was there any such report made in this case?
05 A Not to my knowledge.
06 Q Was there any indication made to you that the
07 crime scene at 875 south Bundy was disturbed in that
08 manner behind the yellow tape in any way?
09 A No.
10 Q You indicated that it was more important to
11 get a criminalist to Rockingham Avenue than to the Bundy
12 address at one point during your testimony on
13 cross-examination.
14 Do you recall that?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Why?
17 A The Bundy location was a secured location.
18 The victims, the evidence, were secure. Nothing was
19 going anywhere.
20 At the Rockingham location, it was an
21 unsecured location. There was a vehicle that was
22 parked at that location with a possible blood stain on
23 it that we wanted analyzed. It was parked partially
24 blocking the street.
25 Again, it was unsecured and we needed it --
26 needed that possible blood stain to be analyzed first.
27 It just made sense because we had the other location
28 secured.
0085
01 So we wanted the Rockingham thing out of the
02 way and then the criminalist was to proceed on to Bundy.
03 Q Well, you indicated earlier that the
04 Rockingham address was not a crime scene.
05 A It was not --
06 Q And no crime scene log was generated for it
07 because it was not a crime scene.
08 Can you explain that?
09 A When I was at the location, it was not a crime
10 scene. The criminalist -- when I was there with the
11 criminalist that was requested was there to only test
12 the blood on the Bronco vehicle. I left before the
13 criminalist arrived.
14 Q In the 2- to 300 homicides that you've
15 investigated, sir, has it every occurred before that you
16 have left a crime scene before it was completed in the
17 processing?
18 A It seems to me there have been instances, yes.
19 Q And that when you left the crime scene in
20 previous cases before the processing was complete, you
21 intended to return?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Was that your intention when you left 875
24 south Bundy for the Rockingham address?
25 A Yes.
26 Q Did you expect to be back fairly quickly?
27 A Yes.
28 Q So when you left lieutenant Rogers at the
0086
01 875 south Bundy address -- and I believe you indicated
02 you did not intend for him to process the crime scene
03 for you -- you left him there thinking that you were
04 going to be back in a few minutes.
05 A Yes, short time.
06 MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.
07 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro?
08 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much, Your Honor.
09
10 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
11
12 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
13 Q Detective, to your knowledge does the
14 Los Angeles Police Department employ more than one
15 criminalist?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And if you wanted two criminalists at two
18 different scenes, would that be available to you?
19 A I don't know.
20 Q Did you try?
21 A Did I try?
22 Q Yes.
23 A No.
24 Q You were present at the autopsy?
25 A Yes.
26 Q You've talked to the coroner who conducted it?
27 A Yes.
28 Q You were present and directed the crime scene
0087
01 photographs to be taken.
02 A Yes.
03 Q You were present and directed the criminalist
04 in his activities.
05 A Yes.
06 Q And you later caused to be purchased a
07 stiletto knife from Ross cutlery; is that correct?
08 A No.
09 Q Did anyone from your department purchase a
10 stiletto knife from Ross cutlery?
11 A Yes.
12 Q You're aware of that knife?
13 A Oh, yes.
14 Q You've seen it?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You've shared that with the criminalist?
17 A I'm sorry, "shared it"?
18 Q have you showed it to the criminalist?
19 A I don't know if it was shown to a criminalist
20 or not.
21 Q Did you show it to the coroner?
22 A No.
23 Q Is it your opinion that this knife or one
24 substantially similar to it was the murder weapon?
25 A Would be pure conjecture with the knowledge
26 that I have in regards to that knife.
27 MS. CLARK: In that case, calls for speculation.
28 Objection.
0088
01 THE COURT: Sustained.
02 MR. SHAPIRO: Nothing further.
03 THE COURT: Ms. Clark, anything else?
04 MS. CLARK: One question, your honor, I'm sorry.
05
06 further REDIRECT EXAMINATION
07
08 BY MS. CLARK:
09 Q Sir, is it preferable to use one criminalist
10 in a case to process all the scenes related to one case?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And why is that?
13 A To maintain a certain order and custody of
14 evidence, to have one person with knowledge of more than
15 one scene, someone who is up on everything that's going
16 on with both scenes.
17 It's important for chain of custody of
18 evidence. It's important to be on the same page with
19 the criminalist, and it would be very difficult to
20 employ more than one criminalist unless it was
21 absolutely necessary.
22 Q And if you have one criminalist who processes
23 all scenes, he's going to know what's important at each
24 scene because he's seen them all and he may pick up
25 things that you haven't?
26 A Oh, yes.
27 MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.
28 THE COURT: Anything further?
0089
01 MR. SHAPIRO: This witness may be excused.
02 THE COURT: thank you very much, sir. You may
03 step down. Do not discuss your testimony with anyone
04 but the lawyers in the matter.
05 Next witness, please.
06 MS. CLARK: Yes, Your Honor.
07 The people call Detective Vannatter. Recall.
08 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I would offer to
09 stipulate that detective Vannatter's testimony during
10 the motion to suppress can be incorporated and made part
11 of the record for the preliminary hearing.
12 THE COURT: Is that agreeable, Ms. Clark?
13 MS. CLARK: Yes, it is.
14 Thank you, counsel.
15 THE COURT: Do we still need to hear from Detective
16 Vannatter?
17 MS. CLARK: we do, for just a few matters actually.
18 THE COURT: I think I've said this before.
19 You've previously been sworn and remain under
20 oath. Please have a seat in the witness stand.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor, and thank you.
22
23 phillip vannatter,
24 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
25 having been previously called and duly sworn, resumed
26 the stand and testified further as follows:
27 THE COURT: State and spell your name.
28 THE WITNESS: Phillip Vannatter. P-h-i-l-l-i-P,
0090
01 v-a-n-n-a-t-t-e-r.
02 THE COURT: Thank you.
03 You may inquire.
04
05 DIRECT EXAMINATION
06
07 BY MS. CLARK:
08 Q Sir, did you attend the autopsies of the
09 victims in this matter, Ron Goldman and Nicole Simpson?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q And in the course of that autopsy, sir, did
12 you observe the coroner to obtain blood from each of the
13 victims, blood samples?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did you recover those vials from the coroner's
16 lab and return them somewhere?
17 A Yes, I did.
18 Q Those vials of blood samples that you
19 recovered from each of the victims, how were they
20 packaged when you recovered them?
21 A They were packaged in small glass vials with a
22 purple top.
23 Q Did they bear some number or description?
24 A Yes, they did.
25 Q Can you tell us what that was?
26 A Certainly. They had the victim's names and
27 the coroner case number that corresponds to their names
28 on the vial.
0091
01 Q Showing you People's 2 and 3, sir, can you
02 tell me whether the people depicted in these photographs
03 are the ones whose autopsies you attended in this
04 matter?
05 A Yes, they are, yes.
06 Q And they are?
07 A Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown. Nicole brown
08 Simpson.
09 MS. CLARK: in People's 2 and 3 respectively,
10 Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 BY MS. CLARK:
13 Q I'm sorry, sir.
14 You described the packaging. Did that bear a
15 number?
16 A Yes, it did.
17 Q What number was that?
18 A The coroner's case number for Mr. Goldman
19 was 945135, and the number for Nicole Brown Simpson
20 was 945136.
21 Q And that was on the packages?
22 A That was on a label on the glass vial itself.
23 Q And what did you do with those vials?
24 A I hand carried those to Scientific
25 Investigation Division, Los Angeles Police Department,
26 and handed them over to an employee there, Colin
27 Yamauchi.
28 Q What does he do at the police department, sir?
0092
01 A He's an employee of the Scientific
02 Investigation Division that works in the serology
03 department.
04 Q And on what date did you deliver those to him?
05 A That would have been the morning after the
06 autopsy. It would have been June the 15th.
07 Q Now, you've earlier testified regarding a
08 glove that was found at the south side of the location
09 of 360 north Rockingham?
10 A Yes.
11 MS. CLARK: I have a picture. I ASK it be marked
12 People's 21.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 BY MS. CLARK:
15 Q and I ask you if this is the glove that you
16 saw on the grounds on the south side of Rockingham in
17 the position in which you saw it?
18 A Yes, it does.
19 Q Now, you indicated that -- yesterday, sir, at
20 approximately 7:30 you left the Rockingham address to
21 secure a search warrant.
22 A That's correct.
23 Q What time did you return to the Rockingham
24 address?
25 A Shortly after 11:30 in the morning.
26 Q And when you returned, did you see anyone
27 outside the gates of the Rockingham address?
28 A Yes.
0093
01 Q Who did you see?
02 A I saw Mr. Howard Weitzman and Mr. Taft,
03 Mr. Skip Taft.
04 Q And where were they, if you recall? What
05 gate?
06 A They were standing at the Rockingham gate,
07 along the north side of the gate.
08 Q And where were you when you saw them?
09 A I had just parked my car and was walking into
10 the gate, walking toward the residence.
11 Q Did you make contact with them?
12 A I spoke to Mr. Weitzman, yes, because I
13 recognized him, and he spoke to me.
14 Q After you spoke to Mr. Weitzman, what happened
15 next?
16 A I continued into the residence with the search
17 warrant, was there a short time; and I had left
18 instructions with officers, if Mr. Simpson arrived at
19 the location, to keep him from coming into the
20 residence.
21 And shortly after that period, while I was
22 inside, I looked down and I saw Mr. Simpson at the
23 location.
24 Q Did you make contact with him, sir?
25 A Yes.
26 Q When you made contact with him, did you notice
27 anything unusual about either of his hands?
28 A Not at first. When I first made contact with
0094
01 him, he had handcuffs on.
02 Q Well, what --
03 A Shortly after making contact with him, I
04 removed the handcuffs and I noticed a bandage on his
05 left hand, the left middle finger in the upper joint
06 area.
07 Q Now, at some point did you and the defendant
08 proceed downtown?
09 A Yes.
10 Q Now, when I said, "Mr. Simpson," then I said,
11 "the defendant," do you see Mr. Simpson in court today?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q Can you please point him out?
14 A Certainly. He's wearing the dark blue suit,
15 seated at the end of the counsel table there.
16 THE COURT: Indicating the defendant.
17 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
18 BY MS. CLARK:
19 Q And you transported him downtown?
20 A That's correct, yes.
21 Q Did anyone else accompany you downtown?
22 A Yes, another detective from Robbery Homicide
23 Division.
24 Q And did anyone else meet you downtown at the
25 same time?
26 A Yes.
27 Q Who was that?
28 A Mr. Weitzman and Mr. Taft.
0095
01 Q Once downtown, did you take -- make some
02 effort to document the condition of his left middle
03 finger?
04 A I did.
05 Q What did you do?
06 A I took him to the photo lab, photography lab
07 of the police department, and had it photographed.
08 Q Did you cause a blood sample to be taken from
09 Mr. Simpson?
10 A I did.
11 Q And did you get his consent to do so?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Were you present when that blood was taken?
14 A Yes, I was.
15 Q And was the vial given to you after it was
16 taken?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What did you do with that vial?
19 A I kept that vial in my possession and
20 hand-carried it to criminalist Dennis Fung, and turned
21 it over to him to be booked with the evidence.
22 Q And that vial was -- did you do it on the same
23 day that it was -- the blood was taken from the
24 defendant?
25 A Yes. The 13th.
26 Q Of June?
27 A That's correct.
28 MS. CLARK: Oh, may I have a moment, Your Honor?
0096
01 THE COURT: All right.
02 MS. CLARK: I have here a photograph, Your Honor.
03 Ask it be marked as People's 22.
04 THE COURT: All right.
05 (Counsel conferred.)
06 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may we approach? Or I
07 can just put it on the record.
08 THE COURT: All right.
09 MR. SHAPIRO: I have checked with the lawyers and
10 investigators from my office, and we do not believe that
11 we have received a copy of this photograph.
12 I could take a moment and check with the
13 criminalist, but I believe -- but my recollection is we
14 have not seen this photograph, and the date on this
15 photograph is June 21st of '91.
16 THE COURT: '91?
17 MR. SHAPIRO: Of '94, I'm sorry. I can't see,
18 with or without my glasses.
19
20
0097
01 MS. CLARK: May I indicate what is on the
02 photograph, your Honor?
03 MR. SHAPIRO: There are two gloves and a ruler.
04 MS. CLARK: Two gloves, each of them bearing an item
05 number that has already been related to this case.
06 What it does is depict the glove recovered
07 from the crime scene and the glove recovered from the
08 house side by side.
09 I would be delighted to provide counsel with a
10 copy of that photograph if he feels he does not have one.
11 I thought we had given him copies of all photographs.
12 This is not a crime scene photograph at all. It
13 is a lab photograph.
14 THE COURT: This is a photo that was taken at the
15 crime lab itself?
16 MS. CLARK: Yes.
17 THE COURT: Do you have a series of such photos from
18 the crime lab?
19 MS. CLARK: I don't. As far as I know, that is the
20 only one; but I don't know.
21 I thought counsel had all photographs, your
22 Honor; but I will certainly have it duplicated for him. It
23 is not a problem. It doesn't constitute any evidence he
24 has not already seen. It simply puts the two items
25 together in one picture.
26 MR. SHAPIRO: Perhaps we could use another item of
27 evidence that we have already seen for the purposes of
28 this examination at this time and give us an opportunity to
0098
01 examine this photograph.
02 THE COURT: Well, I will give you a chance to examine
03 that photograph.
04 Do you have other evidence that you can present
05 with regard to this at this point?
06 MS. CLARK: I don't know how long it takes counsel to
07 look at a picture of two gloves, but I will be glad to wait
08 until he has satisfied himself that he can match the item
09 numbers of the gloves with the item numbers on his property
10 report and the appearance of those gloves with the
11 appearance of the gloves in the photographs he has already
12 got.
13 MR. SHAPIRO: I would say it would take me time to get
14 expert witnesses from New York, from other parts of the
15 United States, to review this. I am obviously capable of
16 looking at it and seeing it is two gloves.
17 If that is the only purpose of this photograph, I
18 think detective Vannatter can identify hundreds of pictures
19 of gloves that we have. It is just ironic there is one
20 picture we don't have that they want to use for some
21 reason.
22 MS. CLARK: It is one photograph that we have that
23 shows the two gloves in one place, side by side. That's
24 all, your Honor.
25 I don't understand counsel's objection. I don't
26 see why it takes an expert to look at a picture of two
27 gloves.
28 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, I am not going to preclude
0099
01 Miss Clark from utilizing the photo. I take her word for
02 the fact this is a photo of apparently the gloves that we
03 have heard testimony concerning in this preliminary
04 hearing. You are entitled to a copy of it. They have
05 indicated they would provide one to you.
06 When can that be provided? Do you know?
07 MS. CLARK: Right now. I will give counsel my copy.
08 THE COURT: You have a smaller version of what he is
09 holding in his hand?
10 MS. CLARK: Yes, I do.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Let's hand that over to defense
12 counsel.
13 MR. SHAPIRO: Are there any other photographs we
14 haven't received, your Honor?
15 THE COURT: That I don't know.
16 MS. CLARK: I have just been handed a series of
17 photographs that are all crime lab photographs of the
18 gloves. I believe counsel does have them, but I will be
19 glad to give him these again and have another set made for
20 myself.
21 MR. SHAPIRO: We have inventoried each and every item
22 of evidence that has been received, and we have not
23 received those photographs.
24 MS. CLARK: That representation was made to me
25 yesterday, and other counsel for the defense indicated they
26 did indeed have what they said they didn't have; So I would
27 ask Mr. Shapiro to examine the items he has been given to
28 date again.
0100
01 THE COURT: Is that something you can do in a short
02 period of time?
03 MR. SHAPIRO: Yeah. We have them all cataloged.
04 MS. CLARK: How do we know what he has back at his
05 office, your Honor?
06 I am turning over all of these photographs that
07 were taken at the crime lab. These are my only set. And
08 ordinarily we order two sets, which would indicate to me
09 counsel has his. But in an abundance of caution, I am going
10 to turn them over again and I am going to get another set
11 for myself.
12 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you.
13 The last time we got these, we got a bill for
14 $4,000.
15 That is very kind of you.
16 MS. CLARK: May I proceed?
17 THE COURT: Yes. Let's proceed.
18 BY MS. CLARK:
19 Q Sir, showing you what has now been marked as
20 People's 22, do you recognize what I am showing you?
21 A Yes, I do.
22 Q Now, do you see beneath each of these gloves that
23 there is an item number?
24 A I do.
25 Q What is an item number?
26 A That is an item number of a piece of evidence
27 that has been recovered and booked as evidence with our
28 crime lab.
0101
01 Q And are you familiar with the property report
02 that lists the item numbers for the evidence that was
03 recovered in this case, sir?
04 A Yes, I am.
05 Q was each of the gloves recovered, the one at the
06 875 south Bundy address and the one at the 360 Rockingham
07 address, given a separate item number?
08 A Yes, it was.
09 Q Do you recognize the item numbers shown in
10 People's 22?
11 A I do.
12 Q Can you tell us, sir, whether those are the item
13 numbers that go to each of those respective addresses for
14 each glove?
15 A Yes.
16 Item No. 9 is the glove that was recovered at 360
17 Rockingham, and item 37 is the glove recovered at 875 south
18 Bundy.
19 Q Do items also receive a second number, a
20 photograph number?
21 A They normally get what is called a "c" number,
22 and it is issued by the photography department; and then
23 the crime report D.R. number is affixed, also.
24 Q For example, in the exhibit next to you, which is
25 People's 19, in "B," "C" -- actually, all of them, you see
26 these numbers?
27 A Yes.
28 Q Those are photo numbers, sir?
0102
01 A Yes.
02 Q As opposed to item numbers?
03 A Yes.
04 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I am going to object to this
05 series of photographs being shown.
06 May we be heard at side bar?
07 THE COURT: Yes.
08 You may be heard in chambers.
09 MS. CLARK: At side bar?
10 THE COURT: Yes. There is not a side bar in this
11 courtroom.
12 MS. CLARK: Shall I take the exhibit back?
13 THE COURT: Sure. Bring the exhibit back.
14 Mr. Reporter.
15 (the following proceedings were
16 Held in chambers: )
17 THE COURT: All right. The record should reflect that
18 we are in chambers, equivalent to side bar; We have
19 Mr. Hodgman and Miss Clark, Mr. Uelmen and Mr. Shapiro, the
20 court reporter and myself.
21 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, your Honor.
22 We are going to object as being unduly
23 prejudicial putting three photographs together that are not
24 related.
25 One is a photograph of Mr. Simpson taken on the
26 13th, of his index finger; and right next to it are the two
27 gloves.
28 I think the inference is more than clear and the
0103
01 prejudicial effect outweighs the probative value.
02 Were the three photographs to be introduced
03 individually, we have no objection to that; But to do it on
04 this board is, to me, outrageous.
05 MS. CLARK: Well, "outrageous" is hardly the term, but
06 I would remind the court we don't have a jury; This is a
07 preliminary hearing --
08 THE COURT: I am well aware of that.
09 MS. CLARK: -- Number one.
10 And number two, if counsel has no objection to
11 them individually, then he certainly cannot legally object
12 to having them all together, collectively, on one board.
13 It simply -- I don't think I have heard a legal
14 objection that would appropriately be made at a preliminary
15 hearing.
16 I don't think the court is going to be unduly
17 prejudiced by seeing three photographs in one spot as
18 opposed to having them shown singly.
19 THE COURT: I don't believe that the photos --
20 MR. SHAPIRO: May I be heard just briefly?
21 I don't believe the court is going to be
22 prejudiced at all, but there is a group of photographers
23 out there. My information is they are sending this
24 transmission worldwide to potential members of this jury,
25 if there ever should be a jury, and that by doing this,
26 there is no other purpose than to unduly influence them by
27 having this picture on the front page of some type of
28 magazine.
0104
01 THE COURT: The court was very concerned with regard
02 to photographs of the crime scene. We handled that in a
03 way I thought was appropriate for both sides.
04 I do not find that these particular photos
05 depicted in the manner that they are depicted are the same
06 nature and type as those other photos that we handled in
07 another way.
08 the mere fact that there is a picture of the hand
09 and a picture of the gloves on one board I do not feel is
10 of such a nature that we would prejudice the defendant's
11 ability to get a fair trial should at some point he go to
12 trial.
13 So, therefore, your objection is overruled.
14 Let's go back out.
15 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you.
16 (the following proceedings were
17 Held in open court:)
18 THE COURT: All right. We are again on the record in
19 the case of people v. Simpson. The defendant is present
20 with counsel. The people are represented. The detective
21 is on the witness stand.
22 Miss Clark.
23 MS. CLARK: Yes.
24 The objection was overruled, your Honor?
25 THE COURT: That's correct.
26 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
27 Ask this series of photographs be marked as
28 People's 23.
0105
01 THE COURT: All right.
02 BY MS. CLARK:
03 Q Sir, showing you People's 23, can you tell us if
04 you recognize what is being shown here?
05 A Yes, I recognize it.
06 Q First of all, tell us what is in photograph "A."
07 A photograph "a" is a picture of Mr. Simpson's left
08 hand middle finger, at the upper knuckle, that was taken at
09 my direction in the photo lab.
10 Q Does it accurately depict the condition of that
11 knuckle as you saw it when you had the picture taken at
12 parker center?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Was there only one cut on that finger, sir?
15 A There was a smaller laceration down towards the
16 first knuckle that doesn't show up there very well. It was
17 a small laceration that ran across the finger -- across the
18 finger and down.
19 Q Now, the gloves that are shown in "B" and "C"
20 of People's 23 --
21 a Yes?
22 Q -- do you recognize those, sir?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And what are those?
25 A Those are the two gloves that were found at 875
26 south Bundy and 360 north Rockingham.
27 Q