Preliminary Hearing - July 7, 1994

 04                                        )
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06                 VS.                    )   VOLUME 10
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 13                  THURSDAY, JULY 7, 1994
 16                              WILLIAM HODGMAN
 17                              DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
 19                              GERALD UELMEN
 20                              PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
 26                              ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 27                              ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
 27                              OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
 01                        I N D E X
 01                                                     VOIR
 03 TOM LANGE               15     40     76       86
 04                                       88
 05 PHILLIP VANNATTER       90    107
 07                          -O0O-
 09                         EXHIBITS
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 12                                    (WITHDRAWN)
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 18 14 - PHOTO                             28
 19 15 - PHOTO                             28
 20 16 - PHOTO                             29
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 22 18 - PHOTO                             32
 23 19 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                  33
 24 20 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                  33
 25 21 - PHOTO                             92
 26 22 - PHOTO                             96
 27 23 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                 104
 01                 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
 02                  THURSDAY, JULY 7, 1994
 03                        9:02 A.M.
 04                          -O0O-
 06      THE COURT:  Good morning.
 07      MR. SHAPIRO:  Good morning, Your Honor.
 08      MS. CLARK:  Good morning Your Honor.
 09      MR. HODGMAN:  Good morning, Your Honor.
 10      MR. UELMEN:  Good morning, Your Honor.
 11      THE COURT:  We are once again on the record in
 12 People versus Simpson.
 13           The defendant is present with counsel, the
 14 people are represented.
 15           First of all, before announcing the ruling
 16 with regard to the 1538.5 motion, I'd just like to say
 17 that both attorneys, both sides in this case, did an
 18 excellent presentation, for which the court is
 19 grateful.   And you both gave me quite a bit to think
 20 about during the last several hours.
 21           The key issue for the Court's determination is
 22 whether the warrantless entry into the property on
 23 Rockingham and recovery of certain items and physical
 24 evidence was justified in light of exigent
 25 circumstances.
 26           And this is really a gray area of the law.  I
 27 mean, there's no set formula to establish when or --
 28 when an exigent circumstance does exist and when it
 01 doesn't.   And it's really something that has to be
 02 decided on a case by case basis based upon the evidence
 03 that's actually questioned in the hearing.
 04           There were numerous cases cited by the
 05 prosecution as well as by the defense.   The court has
 06 reviewed all of those cases.
 07           The court also found an additional case that I
 08 did not see cited by either the prosecution or the
 09 defense which, although not identical to the
 10 circumstances in this case, is more similar than most of
 11 the other cases.   And that case is People versus Cain,
 12 c-a-i-n, at 216 Cal.App.3d 366, a case decided in
 13 December of 1989.
 14           In that particular matter, the situation was
 15 that there was a woman who had been beaten and raped in
 16 a certain apartment.   The officers went to that
 17 location, observed her.  Through the common wall they
 18 could hear music coming from the next apartment over and
 19 could see that lights were on, and it was early in the
 20 morning.
 21           The officers knocked on the door, received no
 22 answer, and made a determination in their own minds that
 23 they felt that there could indeed be an additional
 24 victim in the adjacent apartment.
 25           The door was unlocked and they entered that
 26 apartment.   They later found the defendant passed out
 27 on the floor intoxicated and recovered physical
 28 evidence, including blood stains and clothing, that
 01 eventually tied that particular defendant to the crime
 02 for which he was later convicted.
 03           The court upheld the warrantless entry into
 04 that apartment, and the language in that case the Court
 05 finds particularly helpful in this particular matter.
 06                "The court indicates that due weight
 07           must be given, not to the unparticularized
 08           suspicions or hunches of the police
 09           officers involved, but to the reasonable
 10           inference which he -- "  or she -- "is
 11           entitled to draw from the facts in light
 12           of his -- " or her -- "experience."
 13           Additionally, that court places a limitation,
 14 which other courts indeed have recognized, which is that
 15 "the search involved must be strictly circumscribed by
 16 the exigencies which justify its initiation."
 17           Let's consider the evidence in this case.
 18 And basically the evidence that was presented in this
 19 matter is, for the most part, uncontroverted with regard
 20 to the search.
 21           We know from the evidence that was presented
 22 that the detectives in this matter -- Vannatter,
 23 Fuhrman, Lange and Phillips, I believe -- started out at
 24 the crime scene on Bundy.
 25           They made the observations of the two dead
 26 bodies, the blood, the glove, the footprints, and the
 27 droplets of blood leading away from that location.
 28 There's no dispute as to what they saw there at Bundy.
 01           There's also no dispute that there were two
 02 small children who apparently were asleep inside that
 03 particular location at the time of the incident itself,
 04 and that those small children were taken to the police
 05 station.
 06           Notwithstanding suggestions to the contrary
 07 during cross-examination, the place for two small
 08 children whose mother has been murdered is not at the
 09 police station, sitting in a corner drawing pictures on
 10 a tablet.   The place for those kids is with their
 11 family.
 12           The detectives testified that they were
 13 concerned about those children and wanted to make
 14 arrangements with regard to those children.   The person
 15 who is the next of kin to those children is the
 16 defendant.   He's their father.   He is the person that
 17 logically would be the one that would be called upon to
 18 take action, to take custody of those children.
 19           So I don't find anything improper in terms of
 20 the police conduct, with the idea that they were going
 21 to go to the Simpson home.
 22           One might say, "well, why didn't they just
 23 call?"   Well, apparently they didn't have the phone
 24 number to the Simpson home.   We learned that through
 25 the testimony, that they had to get Westec security to
 26 come actually out to the location to try to get that
 27 phone number.
 28           So they go to the Simpson home, which
 01 apparently is only some two miles away and a short car
 02 ride.   They get to the gate.   And here again, it seems
 03 to me that they really do extraordinary things to try to
 04 make contact with the persons inside.
 05           I mean, the testimony was that they rang that
 06 bell for some 15 minutes to try to rouse somebody from
 07 within the house.   They could hear that phone ringing
 08 from out at the gate.   There's no response.
 09           But what do they see?   And this apparently is
 10 uncontroverted in light of the testimony that was
 11 presented.   There's a light on upstairs, there's a
 12 light on downstairs.   There's several vehicles in the
 13 driveway.   A suggestion that there are persons inside.
 14           But then there's more, and of course this is
 15 the crucial piece of evidence, but it by itself without
 16 all of the other surroundings circumstances would not be
 17 enough.
 18           But what the officers say while they're
 19 shuffling around for these 15 minutes trying to get in
 20 touch with someone inside the house is that they see
 21 blood, what they believed to be blood, on the door
 22 handle or near the door handle of this white Bronco, a
 23 white Bronco that is parked on a public street where the
 24 officers have a right to be.
 25           And the court sees no problem with the
 26 observing or recovery of the blood sample from the door
 27 of the Bronco.
 28           So seeing what they believed to be blood, and
 01 having seen droplets of blood leading away from the
 02 location, the officers even now are doing more to get in
 03 touch with the people inside.   They're calling Westec
 04 security who, apparently, dispatches at least one if not
 05 two vehicles to the location and eventually give the
 06 police the telephone number.
 07           What they get at that point is an answering
 08 machine.   They feel -- and the testimony of both
 09 officers was that they felt that there was an emergency
 10 situation.
 11           The officers are cross-examined in length,
 12 both by Mr. Uelmen of the initial officer, and by
 13 Mr. Shapiro of detective Vannatter.   And both lawyers,
 14 defense lawyers in this case, did an excellent job on
 15 cross-examination.
 16           But when one looks at the results of that
 17 cross-examination, basically there were really no holes
 18 put in either of those detectives' testimonies, that
 19 they felt they were acting in an emergency situation at
 20 the time.
 21           Again, I go back to that language in Cain.
 22 "The search must be strictly circumscribed by the
 23 exigencies which justify its initiation."
 24           This would be a very easy decision for me if
 25 in fact these officers went in there like storm
 26 troopers, fanning out over the property, examining every
 27 leaf, every car, every closet, every nook and cranny of
 28 this location.
 01           But the testimony as elicited by the officers,
 02 and as supported by the witnesses that testified on
 03 behalf of the defense, show that this was not what
 04 happened.
 05           What the testimony was is that the officers
 06 went in search of persons on the property.   they went
 07 to the guest quarters of Mr. Kaelin, woke him up.
 08           Now, someone might say, "well, what are they
 09 doing looking at those tennis shoes?"   Well, they
 10 didn't know what the situation was.
 11           They knew there were bloody footprints that
 12 led away from that location, and there was blood on this
 13 vehicle that somehow was tied in or could be tied into
 14 that, so they pick up the tennis shoes.
 15           There's no blood on the shoes, but they don't
 16 start searching under beds, searching drawers, they
 17 don't handcuff Mr. Kaelin.   They don't do anything like
 18 that.
 19           Instead, what they do is they ask him if
 20 there's other persons on the property.   And where do
 21 they go?   He directs them to Arnelle Simpson's
 22 quarters, apparently further down that pathway.
 23           Now, Arnelle Simpson testified the officers
 24 didn't ask her whether there was anyone hurt or injured
 25 or a suicide or something like that going on.   But what
 26 did Arnelle Simpson tell us?
 27           She told us that while she was walking into
 28 that house, taking a path to the front door and opening
 01 it with a key, the officers asked her about the live-in
 02 maid.
 03           Again, we have to judge the officers' conduct
 04 and the exigency, if there was one, not based upon --
 05 not what all of us know today, but based upon what the
 06 officers knew at the time.
 07           And the information that they had been
 08 provided by Westec security was that there was a live-in
 09 maid at the location.   Additionally, Westec security
 10 advised them that they had not been informed that there
 11 was going to be a vacation or an absence of the
 12 residents from that location.
 13           We know now, obviously, that there was no
 14 dying person or injured person on the property of the
 15 Simpson estate at that time.   We know that all the
 16 persons who were supposed to be there were accounted
 17 for.
 18           Mr. Simpson was in Chicago.   Mr. Kaelin was
 19 in his quarters.   Ms. Arnelle Simpson had been out and
 20 returned about 1:00 o'clock in the morning.   And Gigi,
 21 the maid, was on her night off.
 22           But the officers didn't know that at the
 23 time.   So their immediate question, "where's the maid,"
 24 and a quick sort of cursory look around the area of the
 25 maid's room once they get into the house, again, seems
 26 to me, was conduct "that was strictly circumscribed by
 27 the exigencies which justified its initiation," the
 28 language from that case.
 01           Now, what happened once the officers got into
 02 the house?   What happened was they got on the
 03 telephone.   They did exactly what they said they were
 04 there to do, which is to make arrangements for those
 05 children.
 06           Cathy Randa was called.   Mr. Simpson was
 07 located and contacted in Chicago.   Apparently
 08 Mr. Cowlings was contacted.   Nicole Brown's parents
 09 were contacted.   This is exactly what they said they
 10 were there to do, and that's what they did.
 11           There is some suggestion -- although I'm not
 12 sure that it's clear from the record -- that at some
 13 point in time Arnelle Simpson apparently left the
 14 location in order to get the children, presumably
 15 leaving the police there at the scene, although it's
 16 really -- that part of it is not clear to me.
 17           There's no indication at any point in time
 18 that the officers were told that they should leave,
 19 they were not welcome there.
 20           Ms. Arnelle Simpson was apparently so upset --
 21 and justifiably so -- by the circumstances of which she
 22 was informed that she couldn't even talk on the phone
 23 and explain to those persons that she was calling what
 24 had happened.
 25           And the only other thing really that went on
 26 while the officers were there at that time, that portion
 27 of the testimony, was that they talked to Mr. Kaelin.
 28 "Did anything unusual happen around here last night?"
 01           And we know from Mr. Kaelin's testimony that
 02 there was a loud, jarring, banging on the wall in his
 03 guest quarters, one that scared him, that he didn't know
 04 the origin of, that he had mentioned to several other
 05 persons but had never really investigated himself.
 06           So the officers have that information from
 07 Mr. Kaelin, and detective Fuhrman walks down that
 08 path.   He doesn't go anywhere else on the property.
 09 Officers make no attempt to go upstairs.   They don't
 10 start opening cupboards, lifting up carpets, opening
 11 vehicles.
 12           He goes down that path to the area
 13 approximately adjacent to the air conditioner where that
 14 noise was seen in (sic) and the picture jarred from the
 15 wall and finds a glove, a glove that appears to be the
 16 apparent mate to the glove found at the crime scene.
 17           And at that point he describes that he walked
 18 down toward the end of the path to see where it would
 19 lead, looking to see whether he would find a body there,
 20 and that's sort of what he expected to find, according
 21 to his testimony.
 22           He then takes the other detectives one at a
 23 time to that location and shows them the glove as well.
 24           Contrary to the suggestions in the defense
 25 argument that this ruling allowing the officers'
 26 conduct -- or finding that it was reasonable and there
 27 were exigent circumstances -- would mean the end of the
 28 Fourth Amendment and Constitution and anarchy, I
 01 disagree.
 02           And I think one only needs to look as far as
 03 the fact that within a short time after that glove was
 04 discovered, that the officers did in fact obtain a
 05 search warrant and apparently many other items of
 06 evidence were recovered, none of which are going to be
 07 offered during the course of this particular proceeding.
 08           So in my mind, the Fourth Amendment is alive
 09 and well.   It is recognized.   It's nothing new,
 10 nothing novel that I'm coming up with here, that there
 11 are exigent circumstances that on occasion justify a
 12 warrantless entry and a limited search.
 13           And this, it appears to the court, is what
 14 occurred in this particular case based upon, as I
 15 indicated, not only the testimony of the officers as to
 16 what their state of mind was, but the specific actions
 17 that they took which show, in fact, that that indeed was
 18 their state of mind.
 19           And they are entitled to, and the court is
 20 entitled to give weight to, the experience of those
 21 officers in drawing their conclusions.  And what we
 22 learn about those officers is that, I think one had 19
 23 or so years of experience and Vannatter over 25 years of
 24 experience, an elite homicide unit, and all of that can
 25 be taken into account.
 26           The Court finds that they were in fact acting
 27 for a benevolent purpose in light of the brutal attack,
 28 and that a delay -- and that they reasonably believed
 01 that a further delay could have resulted in the
 02 unnecessary loss of life.
 03           And, therefore, the court denies the defense
 04 motion to suppress and will allow the introduction into
 05 evidence of the glove that was recovered and of the
 06 spattered blood spots that were located on the driveway
 07 once the sun came up, as well as the blood stain from
 08 the Bronco which was in plain view on a public street.
 09           Miss Clark, do you have an additional witness
 10 to call at this time?
 11      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor, I do.
 12           If I may inquire of the defense when they
 13 wanted to have Mr. Kaelin re-take the stand to complete
 14 cross-examination.
 15      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, we have no objection to
 16 excusing Mr. Kaelin from these proceedings.
 17      THE COURT:  All right.   So you are not asking that
 18 he be recalled at this time?
 19      MR. SHAPIRO:  No, we're not.   Thank you.
 20      THE COURT:  All right.
 21      MS. CLARK:  There will be no further
 22 cross-examination?
 23      THE COURT:  That was the indication.
 24      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 25           The people call detective Tom Lange.
 28 \ \
 01      THE CLERK:  Please raise your right hand.
 02           You do solemnly swear the testimony you may
 03 give in the cause now pending before this court shall be
 04 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so
 05 help you God?
 06      THE WITNESS:  I do.
 08                        TOM LANGE,
 09 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
 10 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
 11 follows:
 12      THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
 13           State and spell your name for the record.
 14      THE WITNESS:  Tom Lange.   L-a-n-g-e, also known as
 15 Frederick Lange.
 16      THE COURT:  You may inquire.
 17      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 19                    DIRECT EXAMINATION
 22      Q    Detective Lange, would you please tell us what
 23 you do for a living, sir.
 24      A    I'm a police detective for the City of
 25 Los Angeles, assigned to Robbery Homicide Division,
 26 homicide special section.
 27      Q    How long have you been a police officer, sir?
 28      A    27 years in October.
 01      Q    And how long have you been assigned to Robbery
 02 Homicide Division, homicide special?
 03      A    I've been assigned to that unit since November
 04 of 1978.
 05      Q    How many homicides have you investigated over
 06 the entire course of your career?
 07      A    I can give you an approximation.   Homicides
 08 that I've been directly assigned or investigations that
 09 I've been a part of, probably between 250 and 300.
 10      Q    Now, in robbery homicide, homicide special,
 11 how many cases have you handled overall?   Just an
 12 estimate.
 13      A    Well, again, it would be open to
 14 interpretation.   There have been serial killings, there
 15 have been mass killings.   If these are individual or --
 16 I don't know.   It would have to be over 200.
 17      Q    Sir, were you assigned as one of the
 18 investigating officers in the case now pending before
 19 this court?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    And how did that come about?
 22      A    I was awakened approximately 3:00 a.m. on
 23 Monday, June 13th, at home.
 24      Q    And what did you do when you got that call?
 25      A    I had received information that there was a
 26 double homicide at 875 south Bundy, the West Los Angeles
 27 area, and so I responded to that location, arriving
 28 approximately 4:30 a.m.
 01      Q    Is that Brentwood of Los Angeles County, sir?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    Now, by the time you arrived, were other
 04 officers already present?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    And was the scene secured in some manner?
 07      A    Yes.   The scene was secured by police yellow
 08 marker tape, as well as by uniformed patrol officers.
 09      Q    If you would, sir, could you please describe
 10 the building -- well, strike that.
 11           Did you see the apparent victims in this case
 12 when you arrived at the scene?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    Did someone lead you through a path that would
 15 avoid disturbing evidence to do so?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    And what was that path?
 18      A    The path was a walkway running along the north
 19 side of the residence, perpendicular to the sidewalk in
 20 front.
 21      Q    And what were you able to see from that
 22 vantage point, sir?
 23      A    On the walkway I observed one victim, Nicole
 24 Brown Simpson, lying in a -- on the walkway at the foot
 25 of three steps leading up to the front entrance.
 26      Q    Were you able to see any other victims, sir?
 27      A    Yes.   Just to the north and a little west of
 28 the first victim, I observed the second victim,
 01 Mr. Goldman, lying beneath a large tree in an area just
 02 off the walkway.
 03      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, I have here a series of
 04 small photographs.   I am showing them to counsel.
 05           With respect to the first of these
 06 photographs, I'm going to ask that it be substituted in
 07 lieu of the larger photograph that's been marked on a
 08 poster board.
 09      THE COURT:  And do you recall which number that
 10 was?
 11      MS. CLARK:  I'm going to inform the court.
 12           People's 5, Your Honor.
 13           If I may withdraw People's 5 and substitute in
 14 lieu of that the smaller photograph and mark it as
 15 People's 5.
 16      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, any objection?
 17      MR. SHAPIRO:  No, Your Honor.
 18      THE COURT:  All right.
 19      MS. CLARK:  I believe counsel agrees this is a
 20 smaller version of the same one we have previously
 21 shown.
 23      Q    Showing you People's 5, can you tell me if you
 24 recognize what I'm showing you?
 25      A    Yes.   This is the victim, Nicole Brown
 26 Simpson, lying in the position that I observed her on
 27 the morning of the 13th.
 28      Q    That is the position that you observed?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    And I'm sorry, sir, I didn't hear.
 03           Did you tell us that you observed any other
 04 victims?
 05      A    Yes.   I observed a second victim,
 06 subsequently identified as Mr. Goldman, to the north and
 07 just west in the dirt area just off of the walkway
 08 beneath a large tree.
 09      Q    Now, did you have what we call a Walk-through
 10 at that scene?
 11      A    Yes.   I was given a walk-through by
 12 West Los Angeles homicide detectives.
 13      Q    And where did you walk?
 14      A    Initially we walked up to the bodies to the
 15 location, and observed them at close range.   Some
 16 various things were pointed out to me initially by
 17 detective Phillips.
 18           We then proceeded up the steps towards the
 19 front entrance of the home and eventually entered the
 20 home.   Again, several things were pointed out to me by
 21 detective Phillips that he had observed.
 01      Q    And when you pointed out -- when he pointed
 02 them out to you, did you observe them, sir?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    Can you tell us what those items were?
 05      A    Initially, near Mr. Goldman, there was a white
 06 envelope containing what appeared to be prescription
 07 glasses.  It was lying just off the walkway, in the dirt,
 08 between the first and second victims.
 09           There appeared to be a dark blue knit cap that
 10 was found in the dirt at the feet of Mr. Goldman, the
 11 second victim.
 12           There was a dark brown leather glove, a
 13 left-handed glove, that was also near the feet of
 14 Mr. Goldman, near the knit cap.
 15           I observed a ring with, I believe, five keys just
 16 below the buttocks of Mr. Goldman.
 17           I observed a great deal of blood both on and
 18 around the area surrounding Mr. Goldman and Miss Simpson.
 19           There were what appeared to be paw prints, or
 20 animal prints, that had walked through the blood that was
 21 draining downwards down the sidewalk in an easterly
 22 direction, towards the sidewalk, from nicole Simpson.  I
 23 observed these animal tracks to go through the blood
 24 eastward and then proceed south along Bundy from the
 25 location.
 26           Additionally, I observed what appeared to be shoe
 27 prints -- bloody shoe prints leading from the area of the
 28 two victims up the steps and in a westerly direction along
 01 the walkway that was along the north side of the
 02 residence.  They appeared to go directly by the open front
 03 door of the residence and continue in a westerly
 04 direction.  As they progressed, they began to fade towards
 05 the rear of the house -- the actual bloody shoe prints
 06 did.
 07           There appeared to be several blood droplets among
 08 these bloody shoe prints leading away westerly from the
 09 bodies.  These droplets appeared to have landed straight
 10 down on the pavement.
 11      Q    Let me ask you a question, sir.
 12           You indicated that you saw bloody shoe prints in
 13 an area -- in a direction that appeared to go away from the
 14 bodies, towards the rear of the building?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    Did you notice any blood drops in that vicinity?
 17      A    Yes.  Again, I did notice several blood drops.
 18      Q    To what side of the bloody shoe prints?
 19      A    I believe they were just on the left side, or the
 20 south side, for the most part.
 21      Q    To the south, which would be to the left of the
 22 bloody shoe prints?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    And if you would, sir, can you describe the
 25 nature of the building and the scene as you saw it?  In
 26 other words, where is the path in relation to the stairs
 27 and the landing and the building behind which -- in front
 28 of which you found Miss Simpson?
 01      A    Well, the building itself is a large
 02 condominium.  It appears to be a duplex, three level.
 03      Q    If you step up the path, sir, are there -- is
 04 there a gate you come to before you would come to the
 05 bodies of the victims?
 06      A    Yes.  There is a gate to the east of where the
 07 victims were located that I found to be wide open at the
 08 time.  The gate is serviceable and could be locked from
 09 the inside and opened from the inside without a key;
 10 however, from the outside one would need a key.
 11           Additionally, there is an outside latch that
 12 would have to be activated in order to get in after one
 13 keyed their way in or someone on the inside would allow
 14 them to go in.
 15      Q    You observed the operation of that gate, I take
 16 it, personally?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    Is there a way from the inside of the house
 19 you can press a button to open the gate electronically?
 20      A    There is an inside release button, but I could
 21 not activate it.  To me it was unserviceable at that
 22 time.
 23      Q    And at that time was what time?
 24      A    Well, the morning of the crime scene
 25 investigation and during subsequent visits to the crime
 26 scene.
 27      Q    So as of June 13, the morning of June 13, you
 28 found the release button on the inside of the residence to
 01 be inoperable; that is, it would not open the gate?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    And based on your observation, you were able
 04 to manually unlatch the gate if you went down to it and
 05 unlatched it?
 06      A    From the inside?
 07      Q    Yes.
 08      A    Yes.
 09      Q    But you would have to do that in order to open
 10 it?
 11      A    Well, the inner knob is a smooth knob.  The outer
 12 knob, towards the street, is keyed.  So from the inside you
 13 could open it by the knob; but one would have to, if they
 14 were opening it from the inside, reach over the gate and
 15 undo the latch on the outside.
 16      Q    As well?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    You indicated, I think, you found Miss Simpson up
 19 against or next to the stairs that were leading up to the
 20 landing that leads to the front door?
 21      A    She was lying more or less on her left side, in
 22 what I would term a semifetal position, with the head in a
 23 north by northeasterly direction.
 24      Q    After you go up those stairs, if you were
 25 going to go to the back alley, can you describe the path
 26 that you would take?
 27      A    To the back alley from that location?
 28      Q    Yes.
 01      A    Yes.
 02           There are three or four steps leading, above
 03 where she was located, to a porch area; and then there are,
 04 I believe, two more steps up another area towards the front
 05 door, which would be off to one's left if you were walking
 06 in a westerly direction.
 07           That pathway continues westerly to the point
 08 where there is a small gate.  One would go through the
 09 latch gate and then descend several steps to a lower area,
 10 where the housekeeper's quarters would probably be located,
 11 and proceed along that area to a point where there are some
 12 more steps going up, another level area; and one would
 13 eventually reach a locking gate similar to the front gate,
 14 located at the northwest corner of the property.  This
 15 particular gate had a dead-bolt lock, again, accessible
 16 from the inside and not the outside.
 17      Q    So from the pathway that is perpendicular to
 18 the sidewalk, you would go up some stairs, across a
 19 landing, down some stairs and out through a rear gate to
 20 a driveway area that is near -- that is in front of the
 21 garage, that leads to an alley?
 22      A    Yes.  The residence driveway is to the rear
 23 there.
 24      Q    And the alley runs north/south?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    Did you also look at the inside of the house
 27 at 875 south Bundy?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    When you saw that house, sir, can you describe
 02 the position of the front door?
 03      A    When I observed it, the front door was wide open.
 04      Q    Is that the way, if you know, in which it was
 05 found by the first officer?
 06      A    That was my information, yes.
 07      Q    Showing you now a photograph that appears to
 08 be -- has the number 104 in it --
 09      ms. clark:  I ask this be marked People's --
 10      the court:   10.
 11      ms. clark:  -- 10.
 12           Thank you, your Honor.
 13      Q    -- Can you tell us what that is, sir?
 14      A    Yes.
 15           This is the white envelope I mentioned
 16 previously, located between both victims, on the ground,
 17 with the prescription -- what appeared to be prescription
 18 glasses in it.
 19      Q    Did you see any writing on that envelope, sir?
 20      A    Eventually, when it was turned over, I did see
 21 some writing on the face side, something to the effect of
 22 "nicole Simpson, prescription glasses."
 23      Q    Do you see a pattern I am pointing out now just
 24 below that white envelope that appears to be a pattern in
 25 blood?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    Did you observe that when you were at the scene
 28 that morning?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    On June 13?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    What was that, sir, or what did it appear to
 05 you to be?
 06      A    it appeared to me to be a bloody shoe print of
 07 some type.
 08      Q    You indicated, I think, earlier in your
 09 testimony you saw a few bloody shoe prints leading away
 10 from the bodies of the victims?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    Did they appear to be the same kind of tread
 13 as is shown in People's 10?
 14      A    They appeared to be consistent, yes.
 15      ms. clark:  Would the court like to see the
 16 photograph?
 17      Q    Showing you now a photograph with the number
 18 103 on it --
 19      ms. clark:  Ask it be marked People's 11.
 20      THE COURT:  All right.
 21 BY ms. clark:
 22      Q    -- can you tell us what is depicted in that
 23 photograph, sir?
 24      A    This is also, I would like to point out -- there
 25 is another what appears to be bloody footprint, the dark
 26 blue knit ski-type cap that I described earlier and the
 27 aforementioned dark brown leather glove that was located
 28 near the feet of Mr. Goldman.
 01      Q    Do you see, also, what appears to be a bloody
 02 print in this photograph as well?
 03      A    Yeah.
 04      Q    What was that, sir?
 05      A    Again, it is a bloody footprint that was
 06 consistent with the others that I had seen.
 07      Q    Shoe print?
 08      A    Shoe print.  I'm sorry.
 09      MS. CLARK:  And a photograph with the number --
 10 another photograph with the number 102 in it, People's
 11 12.
 12      Q    Can you tell us what is depicted there, sir?
 13      A    This is a close-up shot of the dark brown
 14 leather glove that I mentioned.
 15           Again, there is a -- appears to be a shoe print
 16 of a bloody shoe.
 17      MS. CLARK:  And a photograph with the toe of a shoe in
 18 it, depicting a brown glove and what appears to be blue
 19 knit cap, People's 13.
 20      Q    Showing you People's 13, sir, can you tell me
 21 what is shown in that photograph?
 22      A    This is another photograph of the dark brown
 23 leather glove.  It shows a portion of the left foot of
 24 Mr. Goldman, the victim.  It also shows the dark blue ski
 25 cap that i mentioned earlier.  Again, we have a bloody shoe
 26 print depicted.
 27      Q    Are those the same items depicted in the
 28 previous photographs that have numbers on them, sir?
 01      A    Yes.  They are just from a different angle.
 02      Q    And showing you a photograph that appears to
 03 have the numbers 102, 103 and 104 in it --
 04      ms. clark:  People's 14.
 05      THE COURT:  I think the last one should have been --
 06 okay.  The last one was 13?
 07      THE CLERK:  Right.
 08      THE COURT:  So this is 14.
 09      ms. clark:  Is that right?
 10      THE COURT:  Yes.
 11 BY ms. clark:
 12      Q    Showing you People's 14, sir, tell us what that
 13 depicts.
 14      A    This is more or less an overall shot of the
 15 direct crime scene after the victims had been removed,
 16 indicating the aforementioned white envelope with the
 17 glasses, the dark brown leather glove, the blue ski cap and
 18 the shoe prints.
 19      Q    Is that the perspective shot of all of the items
 20 in the one picture you have been shown, that we have talked
 21 about?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      ms. clark:  A picture with the No. 107 in it, People's
 24 15.
 25      Q    Can you tell us, sir, if you notice any what
 26 appear to be blood patterns reflecting a shoe print that
 27 you have previously described in that photograph?
 28      A    This is a photograph at the stoop, or stairs,
 01 where nicole Simpson was located, looking in a westerly
 02 direction.  It appears to be an outline of the shoe print
 03 on the first step leading up in a westerly direction, in a
 04 large pool of blood.
 05      Q    The sheet shown in that photograph, sir, with
 06 the number 107 on it, is that where you found
 07 Miss Brown?
 08      A    Yes.
 09      MS. CLARK:  And People's 16.
 10      Q    Please tell us what is depicted in this
 11 photograph, sir.
 12      A    16 is the right foot -- beneath the right foot
 13 of Mr. Goldman, the victim, depicting the sole and heel
 14 of his right shoe.
 15      Q    And why did you want that photograph taken, sir?
 16      A    It was important to us to determine whether or
 17 not the victims had any blood on the soles or heels of
 18 their shoes.
 19      Q    Were you also interested in seeing the pattern of
 20 the soles of the shoes?
 21      A    Yes; that, also.
 22      Q    Was Miss Brown wearing any shoes?
 23      A    No.  She was barefoot.
 24      Q    Can you describe for us, sir, what Miss Brown was
 25 wearing at the time that you saw her?
 26      A    She was wearing what I describe as a black shift
 27 or cocktail dress, sleeveless.  It had one strap around the
 28 neck.
 01      Q    A halter dress?
 02      A    Halter dress, yes.
 03      Q    Can you describe for us what ron Goldman was
 04 wearing when you saw him?
 05      A    He was wearing some type of levi's.  He was
 06 wearing athletic-type -- what I describe as perhaps
 07 athletic-type boots that were secured high on his ankle.
 08 He had on a light-colored plaid, long-sleeve shirt.
 09      Q    When you first arrived at the scene, sir, had
 10 anyone yet been able to identify ron Goldman?
 11      A    No.  He had not been identified.
 12      Q    If you know, at some point -- was he identified
 13 at some point during that morning?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    And how did that come about?
 16      A    Once the coroner's representative had arrived, a
 17 search was made of his pockets and his driver's license was
 18 recovered.
 19      ms. clark:  I would like to mark a photograph of what
 20 appears to be a driver's license People's 17.
 21      THE COURT:  Yes.
 22 BY ms. clark:
 23      Q    Showing you People's 17, sir, tell us if you
 24 recognize what I am showing you.
 25      A    Yes.  That is a photograph of Mr. Goldman's
 26 driver's license as well as a photograph of a union bank
 27 card.
 28      Q    Is that the driver's license that you saw that
 01 was retrieved from the pocket of Mr. Goldman?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    If you would, sir, can you describe the
 04 lighting as you found it when you arrived at the scene
 05 of 875 south Bundy?
 06      A    When I arrived initially, there was a porch light
 07 on over the front door -- the ceiling-type light.  There
 08 was a small light located to the south of the stationary
 09 gate near where Miss Simpson was located, a lamp that shown
 10 directly straight up.
 11           There was a very dim malibu light located east of
 12 the location.  And as far as overhead street lights, there
 13 was one to the east of the location on the street; however,
 14 the illumination appeared to have no bearing on the scene
 15 itself.
 16           There was an additional hanging lamp on the
 17 northeast corner of dorothy and Bundy that gave some
 18 indirect lighting on the scene.  Additionally, there was
 19 a light on the building itself, on the residence, in the
 20 southeast corner of the residence, outside, that really
 21 had no direct bearing on the immediate scene.
 22      Q    Overall, sir, would you say that the lighting in
 23 the area where the victims were was very well lit, dark?
 24 Can you describe --
 25      a    I wouldn't call it well lit.  There was some
 26 light, but there is also a great deal of foliage and
 27 shrubbery around the area that would block out not only the
 28 overhead lighting but some lighting from the residence
 01 itself.
 02      Q    Did you notice whether there was any kind of
 03 light on the gate itself?
 04      A    On the gate?
 05      Q    Yes; the gate in front of the residence.
 06      A    Not on the gate.
 07      Q    What, if any, lighting was there working on
 08 the night that you were there that you observed in the
 09 front of the house?
 10      A    Again, initially what I observed was a small
 11 light that was planted in the ground near the mailbox south
 12 of the victims.
 13      Q    Was that on?
 14      A    It was on initially, yes.
 15      Q    How about the porch light?
 16      A    The porch light was on.
 17      Q    How much light did that give?
 18      A    Not a great deal of light.  It did light the
 19 area, but it was not what I would call a great deal of
 20 light.
 21      ms. clark:  Your Honor, I have here a photograph.  I
 22 am going to ask it be marked People's 17 --
 23      THE COURT:  18.
 24      ms. clark:  -- 18.
 25           Thank you.
 26      Q    Showing you People's 18, sir, can you please tell
 27 us what is depicted in that photograph?
 28      A    This is a photograph looking in a northwesterly
 01 direction of the victim Mr. Goldman.
 02      Q    And that depicts the body of the victim
 03 Mr. Goldman as you found him, sir?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    In that photograph can you see the envelope you
 06 have earlier described, that bore the writing of "nicole
 07 Simpson, prescription glasses"?
 08      A    Yes.
 09      Q    You described for us earlier, sir, a blood
 10 trail that went from the area where the victims were found
 11 to the outer area -- all the way out to the alley behind
 12 the house?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      ms. clark:  I have a series of photographs, your
 15 Honor, "A" through "G."  Ask they be marked People's 19.
 16      THE COURT:  All right.
 17      ms. clark:  And another three photographs
 18 collectively, ask they be marked as People's 20.
 19      THE COURT:  All right.
 20 BY ms. clark:
 21      Q    First of all, sir, I am showing you People's
 22 19.
 23           If you would, please describe what is shown in
 24 each photograph and, as best you can, describe the location
 25 in which we see each of the markers.
 26      A    The photograph "A," this is looking in a westerly
 27 direction.  This is the walkway described earlier.  The
 28 victims would have been found below this photograph.  This
 01 is the first landing area.  These three steps lead up to
 02 the front entrance, which is just off to the left here.
 03           The numbers depicted were placed there by the
 04 criminalist, indicate blood droplets that were located.
 05           Item -- photograph "B" is a close-up of no. 112,
 06 a blood droplet.
 07           Photograph "C," item 113, depicted overall in
 08 photograph "A," is another close-up of an apparent blood
 09 droplet.
 10           Photograph "D" indicates a stairwell on the
 11 walkway, overall depicted in photograph "A," leading in a
 12 westerly direction downwards.
 13           Here we have item 114, which is an overall of a
 14 blood droplet.  The close-up of the blood droplet is
 15 indicated in photograph "E."
 16           Photograph "D," we have various letters.  These
 17 are corresponding to bloody shoe prints that I alluded to
 18 earlier.
 19      Q    Letters, sir?
 20           Are you talking about other markings that are on
 21 that photograph?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    A-G, A-H, A-I, A-J, A-K, etc.?
 24      A    Yes.
 25           These were placed by the criminalist.
 26      Q    To mark the bloody shoe prints?
 27      A    Yes.
 28           Photograph "F," again, is looking westerly.  That
 01 is the rear gate of the property, located in the -- here is
 02 the gate located in the northwest corner of the property.
 03 These are the stairs going up.  Here you see an overall
 04 shot of item 115.
 05           Photograph "G" is a close-up of that which
 06 appears to be a blood droplet.
 07      Q    That photograph "F," sir, does that show the rear
 08 gate that opens out to the garage and alley area?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    Now showing you People's 20, will you tell us
 11 what is depicted in those photos, "A," "B" and "C"; and
 12 describe the location that is shown in those photographs.
 13           A photograph "a" is a close-up of the rear gate,
 14 what appears to be blood, blood droplets.
 15           item "b," photograph "b," again, is an overall
 16 depiction of what appears to be a blood droplet; and a
 17 close-up of that is indicated in photograph "c."
 18      Q    So that is the outer area that actually is the
 19 driveway of the garage and alley?
 20      A    Yes.
 21           This is the -- just off to the left here would be
 22 the vehicle, the cherokee vehicle, that belonged to
 23 Miss Simpson.
 24      Q    You are indicating photograph "b" there, sir?
 25      A    photograph "b."
 26           This is looking in a north by northwesterly
 27 direction.  The alley would be -- the north/south alley
 28 would be depicted at the top here from left to right.
 01      Q    And in photograph -- you indicate in photograph
 02 "a" -- is that gate?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    When you were at the crime scene that morning,
 05 on June 13, did you notice the position of that gate that
 06 is shown in photograph "a"?
 07      A    The gate was in the open position.
 08      Q    To your knowledge, was it open at the time the
 09 first officer arrived?
 10      A    My recollection is that it was ajar, somewhat
 11 open; It wasn't secured.
 12      Q    It wasn't locked?
 13      A    Correct.
 14      Q    Sir, is it part of your duties as an
 15 investigating officer to direct the collection of
 16 evidence and the TAKING of photographs?
 17      A    Yes; working with the criminalist.
 18      Q    And so at the crime scene, you assess what you
 19 think is important, what is evidence and should be
 20 preserved either by photographing or collection or both?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    In this particular case, sir, the blood drops
 23 you have described in People's 19 and 20, did you direct
 24 that these photographs be taken?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    Why?
 27      A    The -- it was apparent to me that these blood
 28 droplets were not directly associated with the victims
 01 and that they were perhaps in association with the
 02 bloody shoe prints leading from the scene.  It was also
 03 apparent that they would be connected to a suspect in
 04 this -- in this instance.
 05      Q    So what were your instructions to the criminalist
 06 with respect to these blood drops you have identified in
 07 People's 19 and 20?
 08      A    To photograph, preserve and collect these
 09 exhibits.
 10      Q    And with respect to all of the items you have
 11 previously identified in photographs we have marked
 12 during the course of your testimony, were those all
 13 items that you requested be collected by the criminalist
 14 and photographed in places they were found?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    And are they depicted in the photographs as you
 17 found them, sir?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    Now, did you attend the autopsies in this case?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    And observed them both -- nicole brown and ron
 22 Goldman?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    Showing you the exhibits previously marked as
 25 People's 3 and People's 2, can you tell me whether these
 26 are the people whose autopsies you were present at with
 27 respect to this case, please?
 28      A    Yes.
 01           People's 2, I believe it is Mr. Goldman.
 02           People's 3 is, in fact, Miss Nicole brown.
 03      Q    In your presence, sir, were blood samples
 04 taken from each of those people?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    And did you retrieve those vials of blood that
 07 were given to you -- that were made by the coroner
 08 during the course of the autopsy?
 09      A    Actually, my partner, detective Vannatter,
 10 retrieved them on the following day.  I believe it was June
 11 15.
 12      Q    Sir, are you familiar with the term D.R. number?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    What is that?
 15      A    D.R. are the letters for what in LAPD we term a
 16 division of records number.  This is a number that is
 17 assigned to a particular crime, to a particular victim.
 18           The first two digits would indicate the year.
 19 Something occurring this year would be preceded by a number
 20 94.
 21           The second two digits would indicate the
 22 geographical division involved.  In this case,
 23 geographically, west Los Angeles division is 8; so it would
 24 be 08.
 25           And the five subsequent numbers are the
 26 individual report numbers.
 27      Q    And is there a D.R. number assigned to this case,
 28 sir?
 01      A    There are two D.R. numbers, one for each
 02 victim.
 03      Q    Do you know what they are?
 04      A    94-08-17431 and -32.
 05      Q    The -31 number, is that the main number?
 06      A    Yes.  It is what we call the key number.  It
 07 would be the first number obtained, that all subsequent
 08 reports would be keyed off.
 01      Q    And the -32 number exists to designate a
 02 second victim?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    Is all of the evidence collected in this case
 05 assigned that D.R. number?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    And which one would it be assigned, the -31 or
 08 the -32 number?
 09      A    The first one, the -31 number.
 10      Q    So if it bears that number, it indicates it
 11 was the evidence recovered in this case?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      MS. CLARK:  May I have a moment, Your Honor?
 14      THE COURT:  Yes.
 15      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 16      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 17      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, thank you very much, Your Honor.
 19                    CROSS-EXAMINATION
 22      Q    Good morning, Detective Lange.
 23      A    Good morning.
 24      Q    Is this case still in the process of an
 25 on-going investigation?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    And have you from the onset until the present
 28 time been getting leads on possible other suspects?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    And are you investigating those leads?
 03      A    Personally, I am not.   At this particular
 04 point they are being gathered, categorized, and we're
 05 assigning them out as quickly as we can.
 06      Q    Who is in charge of investigating other leads?
 07      A    At this point, it's detective Paine.
 08      Q    And how many people are under his direction
 09 investigating these other leads?
 10      A    The number varies.   Again, we're trying to
 11 prioritize the amount of information we're getting.   He
 12 probably will have anywhere from six to ten or perhaps
 13 more people, depending on the amount of information
 14 coming in.
 15      Q    Do you know what stage these leads are in, in
 16 terms of development?
 17      A    Very, very early, I would say.
 18      Q    According to all the information you have
 19 received, was the first call relative to this
 20 investigation a call that there was a burglary suspect
 21 at 874 south Bundy drive?
 22      A    It seems to me there was a call to that
 23 effect, a prowler or something like that.   I don't
 24 recall exactly.
 25      Q    Do you have any records of the first call that
 26 was received that resulted in this investigation?
 27      A    I believe we might have.   I haven't checked
 28 that.   I don't know for sure.
 01      Q    And the officers who took that call, are they
 02 required to record that type of call?
 03      A    The officers who responded to this --
 04      Q    No, who received the call, that there was a
 05 burglary suspect.
 06      A    Well, I'm sure they'd record it, yes.
 07 There's a daily field activity report that most units
 08 fill out that they'd have it on.
 09      Q    The exact time of the radio call and the type
 10 of the call are required by L.A.P.D. policy to be
 11 recorded, are they not?
 12      A    They certainly should be, yes.
 13      Q    Do you have any information as to how that
 14 call regarding a burglar suspect at Bundy was
 15 broadcasted?
 16      A    No, I don't.   Again, I'm not familiar with
 17 the particular details of that radio call.   It's just
 18 my knowledge that I believe there was a previous call to
 19 that location.
 20      Q    Do you have any information that this call was
 21 broadcast on June 13th, 1994, at approximately 0010
 22 hours?
 23      A    Do I have information?
 24      Q    Yes.
 25      A    It is -- there's very possibly information in
 26 the book.
 27      Q    And do you have -- would this radio call be a
 28 high priority call?
 01      A    It would depend.   If a suspect were at the
 02 location at that time, it would be a high priority
 03 call.   If the suspect had left, not necessarily, unless
 04 the suspect's still in the area.
 05           Again, I don't know what the details were on
 06 that call.
 07      Q    Was the location of this call, 874 south
 08 Bundy, directly across the street from the homicide
 09 scene?
 10      A    I don't recall the address.
 11      Q    Do you have any records of that?
 12      A    I believe there are some records.   It seems
 13 to me it was right in the vicinity, though, yes.
 14      Q    If it was 874 south Bundy drive, would that be
 15 directly across the street from the homicide scene?
 16      A    Yes, it would.
 17      Q    Did you or anyone under your staff -- anyone
 18 in your staff locate the person who initiated this phone
 19 call?
 20      A    I did not, and I'm not aware of anyone else
 21 who did, other than the responding officers perhaps.
 22      Q    Did you or anyone under your direction
 23 interview anybody at 874 south Bundy?
 24      A    I honestly can't give you an answer.   We've
 25 done in excess of a hundred interviews and we've had
 26 perhaps a dozen investigators doing this.   We have
 27 information coming in all the time.   I really don't
 28 know.
 01      Q    Does a radio call of this nature cause to be
 02 generated an incident report?
 03      A    It would probably depend on whether or not a
 04 crime has occurred.   If it were just a prowler call,
 05 perhaps it would just be a mention in their activities
 06 report.   If a crime had occurred, then, of course,
 07 they'd be required to take a crime report.
 08      Q    What if it said, "burglary suspect there now
 09 at 874 south Bundy drive"?   Would that type of radio
 10 call generate an incident report?
 11      A    Not necessarily.
 12      Q    Do you know if an incident report was
 13 generated?
 14      A    No, I don't.
 15      Q    If such a report was generated, would that be
 16 included in the murder book?
 17      A    I would hope we would eventually get that.
 18      Q    Have you seen such a report in the murder
 19 book?
 20      A    I don't recall seeing a report to that effect.
 21      Q    Was there any report that the burglary suspect
 22 that was there was a Caucasian?
 23      A    Again, Mr. Shapiro, I'm not familiar with the
 24 details of that report.
 25      Q    Now, are the first officers at the scene
 26 required to protect the crime scene and cordon off the
 27 vulnerable areas?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    Are the officers required to determine if an
 02 ambulance crew or any other person moved the body or any
 03 other items within the crime scene?
 04      A    It would be helpful, but they're not
 05 necessarily required to do that.
 06      Q    Are the officers required to record the names,
 07 addresses and date of births and telephone numbers of
 08 all persons at the crime scene?
 09      A    That's preferable again, yes.
 10      Q    If an ambulance crew is present, are the
 11 officers required to record their names, serial numbers,
 12 and obtain a rescue report?
 13      A    They should do that, yes, on a crime scene
 14 log.   That's correct.
 15      Q    Was such a crew there?
 16      A    I don't believe so.
 17      Q    Would you check your chronological record,
 18 please.
 19      A    Yes.
 20           If you give me a moment.   There are several
 21 logs from several incidents here.
 22      Q    Maybe I can help you with that.
 23           Why don't you look at  --
 24      A    I believe I have it, thank you.
 25      Q    --  00038.
 26      A    Yes, I have it, thank you.
 27      Q    Does that indicate whether any emergency
 28 crews were there other than police?
 01      A    I'm checking.   It's quite lengthy.   I wasn't
 02 there to observe.   If I may have a moment.
 03           There is an indication of a Los Angeles Fire
 04 Department captain at the scene.   It states here he was
 05 not needed.   This does not necessarily mean that this
 06 was a paramedic, but a representative from the L.A. Fire
 07 Department.
 08      Q    Have you ever talked to that person?
 09      A    No.
 10      Q    Has anybody, to your knowledge, talked to that
 11 person?
 12      A    To my knowledge, no, I don't know.
 13      Q    Has anybody recorded the names of any other
 14 personnel that may have been there with the Fire
 15 Department?
 16      A    Well, I'm still checking here.   If I could
 17 have a moment?
 18      Q    Pardon?
 19      A    Can I take a moment?   I'm still checking.
 20      Q    Yes.   Let me know when you've had a chance.
 21      A    Thank you.
 22           No, the only representative I see from the
 23 Fire Department is that captain.
 24      Q    Do you know what type of vehicle he arrived
 25 in?
 26      A    No.
 27      Q    Did anyone check to see whether he inspected
 28 the bodies?
 01      A    That's not indicated.   All it says is, "not
 02 needed."   So --
 03      Q    My question was did anyone check to see if he
 04 went to the bodies at the crime scene?
 05      A    I don't know.
 06      Q    Did anyone check to see if he disturbed
 07 anything at the crime scene?
 08      A    I have no knowledge of that.
 09      Q    Did anyone check to see if he came with a
 10 crew?
 11      A    If he would have come with a crew, their names
 12 should have been logged, and all I see is his name, so
 13 I'm assuming that he was the only one there.
 14      Q    Whose responsibility is it to see that no one
 15 enters the crime scene?
 16      A    The officers who would have been assigned to
 17 secure the crime scene.
 18      Q    And who were they?
 19      A    Again, referring to my log, we have officers
 20 Cummings and Sanchez, Mc Allen and Walley, Zeigler, and
 21 it appears to be Glorioso.   The primary unit, Riske and
 22 Terrazas, would probably have had something to do with
 23 that.   Also assisting officers Gonzales and Aston.
 24      Q    Have you read any reports that any of these
 25 officers generated regarding their observations when
 26 they arrived at the scene?
 27      MS. CLARK:  Objection; irrelevant.
 28      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 02      Q    Have you talked to any of those officers?
 03      MS. CLARK:  Objection; irrelevant.
 04      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 05      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I be heard, Your Honor?
 06      THE COURT:  Yes.
 07      MR. SHAPIRO:  I think one of the key issues in this
 08 case is whether or not the crime scene was disturbed,
 09 and this is foundational for asking those questions.
 10      THE COURT:  All right.
 11      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, if counsel has concerns in
 12 that regard, he can certainly subpoena the first officer
 13 on the scene who could explain what he did to secure it
 14 and how he kept people out of the scene, or perhaps
 15 failed to do so.  But asking this detective who appeared
 16 on the scene some four hours after the first officer
 17 appeared is ineffective.
 18           There's no way to -- that this officer could
 19 possibly know what transpired before he arrived, and
 20 asking him what was done and who came in and who did not
 21 would call for hearsay and speculation.
 22      THE COURT:  Well, I think here, since we're back
 23 now to the preliminary hearing, if the appropriate
 24 foundation had been established with regard to the
 25 number of years that this detective has been with the
 26 department -- which I believe that was part of your
 27 early testimony -- hearsay would probably be admissible,
 28 assuming that he's not acting as a mere reader officer
 01 and that that information was imparted to him by some
 02 other person.
 03           So the objection is overruled, subject to the
 04 appropriate foundation.
 05      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 07      Q    Did you read any of the reports that were
 08 generated by any of these officers?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    Have you talked to any of these officers?
 11      A    No.
 12      Q    Do you know if any -- did you ask them if they
 13 did anything at the crime scene upon arrival?
 14      A    Personally, I did not.   It was done by
 15 someone else.
 16      Q    Who was that done by?
 17      A    detective Phillips.
 18      Q    And did he report that anything was done at
 19 the crime scene by any of these officers?
 20      A    Well, it's pretty vague.   If you'd like, I
 21 could tell you what the reports indicated.
 22      Q    Yes, would you.
 23      A    The reports -- each officer was interviewed
 24 separately as to what they did at the location, where
 25 they stood, where they stepped, whether or not they were
 26 injured.   There are reports as to each officer.
 27           Each officer's shoe prints were photographed
 28 and they each gave a statement as to exactly what they
 01 did at the scene.
 02      Q    Is there any policy regarding how persons can
 03 enter a cordoned off crime scene?
 04      A    Is there any policy?
 05      Q    Yes.
 06      A    Well, again, policy is a guideline.   No two
 07 crime scenes are alike.   Therefore, we have policy,
 08 but, again, policy is merely a guideline.   It can't
 09 dictate to you how to handle any particular crime scene.
 10      Q    Is the policy generally that no crime scene
 11 shall be entered except in the accompaniment of an
 12 officer?
 13      A    You could interpret it as generally being that
 14 way, but, again, it's merely a guideline.
 15      Q    And to caution anybody who does regarding
 16 contamination or alteration of evidence?
 17      A    Certainly.
 18      Q    Was that done in this case?
 19      A    Again, I was not present.   I would certainly
 20 hope it was.
 21      Q    Now, when -- did you and your partner,
 22 detective Vannatter, arrive together or in different
 23 vehicles at the Bundy crime scene?
 24      A    Separately.
 25      Q    Who arrived first?
 26      A    detective Vannatter.
 27      Q    You arrived how much later?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    How much later did you arrive, do you know?
 02      A    Oh, I believe it was approximately 20 or 25
 03 minutes.
 04      Q    And did you observe the crime scene to be
 05 secure when you entered?
 06      A    It was secure in my mind, yes.
 07      Q    Were the tapes, ropes, barricades, placed in
 08 proper positions?
 09      A    There was yellow police tape that was up, and
 10 there were uniformed officers, I believe, stationed at
 11 the front and the rear of the location.
 12      Q    In your opinion, was it properly barricaded?
 13      A    If you refer to yellow tape as barricades,
 14 yes.   There were no actual barricades.
 15      Q    I'm asking in your expertise as the senior
 16 member of the special unit whether or not that crime
 17 scene was properly cordoned off at the time you arrived.
 18      A    In my mind, it appeared to be, yes.
 19      Q    Upon arriving, did you cause to record the
 20 weather conditions and the temperature at the crime
 21 scene?
 22      A    Initially, I did not.
 23      Q    Is there any importance to doing that?
 24      A    There may be.   There may not.
 25      Q    And what would the importance be?
 26      A    The importance certainly may be perhaps one
 27 factor of many in determining the time of death.
 28      Q    Is the time of death an important criteria to
 01 establish in a homicide investigation?
 02      A    I would say in most instances, yes.
 03      Q    In this case, would it be?
 04      A    Certainly.
 05      Q    And is it true in your experience that the
 06 earlier you begin the investigation process regarding
 07 trying to establish the time of death, the more likely
 08 you are to establish the time of death?
 09      A    Not necessarily.
 10      Q    You would not agree with that?
 11      A    Well, again, it's a general statement.   There
 12 would be instances certainly where that would be true,
 13 and there would be instances where it wouldn't
 14 necessarily be true.
 15      Q    In this case would it have been true?
 16      A    Perhaps.
 17      Q    And you, as the senior detective there, were
 18 in charge of alerting the criminalists, the coroner, and
 19 any other support unit you would need to conduct the
 20 proper investigation; is that correct?
 21      A    Well, in conjunction with my partner, yes.
 22      Q    And what time did you notify the coroner's
 23 investigative unit to come out to help ascertain the
 24 time of death?
 25      A    I had requested another detective on the scene
 26 to make what we call a first call to the coroner's
 27 office to alert them what we had.
 28           Subsequent to that, another call is made
 01 telling them that we're ready for them.   I don't recall
 02 who made the call.
 03      Q    Is there any record of that?   Is that in your
 04 chronological log?
 05      A    That may well be with the coroner's log.
 06      Q    Is it in your chronological log?
 07      A    I don't believe I have it in my chronological
 08 log.
 09      Q    Is that something that you should have in your
 10 log?
 11      A    Not necessarily.
 12      Q    What time did the coroner's investigators
 13 arrive at the crime scene?
 14      A    Would you like me to refer to the homicide
 15 log?
 16      Q    If you don't know.
 17      A    I have no personal recollection.
 18      Q    Do you have a general idea how many hours it
 19 was after the initial report?
 20      A    It seems to me it was probably approximately
 21 10:00 o'clock, 9:30, 10:00, 10:15, somewhere in there.
 22 But it's only a guess.
 23      Q    Would you feel more comfortable in reviewing
 24 your notes?
 25      A    It doesn't matter to me.   If you'd like me
 26 to, if you want a specific time --
 27      Q    If you're comfortable with that answer,
 28 fine.   If you're not  --
 01      A    Well, no.   Again, you asked me if I had a
 02 specific time.   If you want, I can look at the log for
 03 you.   I do not recall a specific time.
 04      Q    We would like to get the answer that closest
 05 resembles what occurred.   So if your notes would help
 06 in that, we would appreciate it.
 07      A    Well, it's in the log.
 08      Q    Please check that, then.
 09      A    The personnel log at the scene indicates that
 10 coroner's representative Ratcliffe arrived at 9:10 a.m.
 11 and coroner's representative Jacobo arrived at 9:20 a.m.
 12      Q    Are you familiar with the term "rigor mortis"?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    And is that some -- a factor that's used to
 15 determine the time of death?
 16      A    It can be, yes.
 17      Q    And in a case involving a homicide like this
 18 one, would it be important to try to establish the time
 19 of rigor mortis as close to the time of the actual death
 20 for establishing later the time of death?
 21      A    The time of rigor mortis?   I don't
 22 understand.   Rigor mortis is an ongoing thing.
 23      Q    Is that determination a time determination?
 24 In other words, is that a determination that if made
 25 earlier is more helpful, or it doesn't matter when it's
 26 made?
 27      MS. CLARK:  Objection.   Vague, ambiguous, calls
 28 for a conclusion from a nonexpert witness of an expert
 01 nature.
 02      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 03           There's no foundation that this detective
 04 knows the answer to that.
 05      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 07      Q    Do you know the answer to those things?
 08      A    I'm sorry  --
 09      MS. CLARK:  Objection; Your Honor.   That was the
 10 whole point.   No foundation was laid.
 11      THE COURT:  I think that you'd have to sort of lay
 12 the foundation before you ask the general conclusion if
 13 there's no answer.
 15      Q    Are you an expert in homicide investigations?
 16      A    I guess that's open to interpretation.
 17      Q    Have you qualified as an expert in homicide
 18 investigations?
 19      A    I have.
 20      Q    On how many occasions?
 21      A    I've been court qualified on at least one
 22 occasion in superior and Federal Court.
 23      Q    Do you consider yourself an expert in homicide
 24 investigations?
 25      MS. CLARK:  Objection; irrelevant.
 26      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 28      Q    Do others consider you an expert in homicide
 01 investigations in your department?
 02      MS. CLARK:  Calls for speculation, irrelevant.
 03 Objection.
 04      THE COURT:  Overruled.
 05      THE WITNESS:  I -- you would have to ask them.
 06      MR. SHAPIRO:  Can we call detective Vannatter,
 07 please?
 08           We'll proceed.
 10      Q    You guys are very modest, I must say.
 11           Are you familiar with such terms as
 12 "lividity,"  "temperature change,"  "digestion in the
 13 stomach,"  and "eye fluids" as they relate to time of
 14 death?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    Are any of those things important criteria in
 17 establishing time of death?
 18      A    They can be.
 19      Q    Are all of those important criteria in
 20 establishing the time of death?
 21      A    They certainly can be.
 22      Q    Now, you called for a criminalist to come to
 23 the scene; is that correct?
 24      A    I personally did not, but a --
 25      Q    At your direction?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    At your direction.
 28           I know you don't dial the phone for all these
 01 things.   You're kind of like the coach or the
 02 quarterback.   You tell other people what to do?
 03      A    Sometimes.
 04      Q    Did you in this case?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    And that was your job.
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    And you told somebody for a criminalist to
 09 come out.
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    And the first place you directed the
 12 criminalist to come was to Rockingham; isn't that
 13 correct?
 14      A    I don't recall exactly how that happened.   I
 15 know that he was directed to Rockingham first, though.
 16      Q    And did you consider Rockingham to be a
 17 homicide scene at the time he was directed there?
 18      A    No.
 19      Q    Did you consider Bundy to be a homicide scene?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    Of the two, which did you consider to be more
 22 important in terms of priority to get a criminalist
 23 there?
 24      A    More important to get a criminalist would be
 25 Rockingham.
 26      Q    And that was before you and the other officers
 27 made your emergency entry into that location, wasn't it?
 28      A    I believe the request for a criminalist to
 01 test the apparent blood stain on the vehicle was before.
 02      Q    Was before?
 03      A    I believe it was.
 04      Q    You're not  --
 05      A    I'm a little unclear because I left the
 06 Rockingham location shortly thereafter to return to the
 07 Bundy location.
 08      Q    Do you have any records to indicate the time
 09 that the criminalist arrived at Rockingham?
 10      A    I was not present when he arrived at
 11 Rockingham.
 12      Q    My question is, do you have any records to
 13 indicate the time the criminalist arrived?
 14      A    I may have in my possession.   Like I said,
 15 there are many logs here.
 16      Q    Is that -- well, that's something you are
 17 required to record, isn't it, what time a criminalist
 18 initially arrives at a crime scene?
 19      A    Well, I would hope someone would, certainly.
 20      Q    Would you check who did that and what time the
 21 criminalist arrived?
 22      A    I don't know and I don't have that
 23 information.   If a separate log was kept after I left
 24 the location, I'll have to go through quite a bit of
 25 material here.
 26      Q    You've got your lieutenant here and you've got
 27 two deputy district attorneys.   Maybe you could take a
 28 moment and the four of you might be able to find this.
 01      THE COURT:  I think, Mr. Shapiro, we'll take the
 02 morning recess at this time and that should facilitate.
 03      MR. SHAPIRO:  That should help in finding it.
 04 Thank you, judge.
 08            (A recess was taken at 10:26 a.m.)
 01                         TOM LANGE,
 02 having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand, was
 03 examined and testified further as follows:
 04      THE COURT:  We are again on the record in the case of
 05 people v. Simpson.  The defendant is present with counsel.
 06 The people are represented.
 07           Mr. Shapiro.
 08      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 10                cross-examination (resumed)
 12 BY mr. shapiro:
 13      Q    I believe there was a question pending.
 14      A    May I have it repeated, please.
 15      Q    Do you have records to reflect in your
 16 chronological log the time the criminalist first arrived at
 17 the Rockingham scene?
 18      A    I don't.
 19      Q    Did you check with the lieutenant and deputy
 20 district attorneys or anyone else?
 21      A    I checked with my partner at that particular
 22 scene, and he indicates there was no log made.  And that
 23 was not a crime scene at that time.  In fact -- would you
 24 like me to explain that a little bit?
 25      Q    I think you have answered the question.  Thank
 26 you.
 27      A    Okay.
 28      Q    Did you file any reports, supplemental reports,
 01 or follow-up reports, as to what time the criminalist
 02 arrived at the Rockingham location up until and including
 03 today?
 04      A    I didn't.  That would be filed by the criminalist
 05 himself.  He would have his own information, his own log.
 06      Q    And have you seen such a report?
 07      A    I haven't seen it, no.
 08      Q    Do you know if one exists at all?
 09      A    I am assuming a criminalist's report does
 10 exist, yes.
 11      Q    That would be something you would want to
 12 maintain in your murder book, would you not?
 13      A    Once I get it, yes.  We haven't received many
 14 things, and that is one of them.
 15      Q    Isn't the criminalist one of the closest people
 16 you work with in a homicide investigation?
 17      Ms. clark:  Objection.  Vague.
 18           What does "closest" mean?
 19 by Mr. shapiro:
 20      Q    -- One of the most important?
 21      mr. shapiro:  I will rephrase that.  I think counsel
 22 is correct.
 23      THE COURT:  All right.
 24 BY mr. shapiro:
 25      Q    Would you say a criminalist is one of the most
 26 important members of your investigative team in a homicide
 27 case?
 28      A    That would depend, certainly, as to evidence at a
 01 crime scene.  Subsequent to that, not necessarily; but
 02 certainly I would say as to collection of evidence.
 03      Q    In this case would you say he would be one of the
 04 most important members of your investigative team?
 05      A    As to the collection of serological evidence,
 06 yes.
 07      Q    And is that a very important aspect of this
 08 case in your opinion?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    Is it maybe the most important aspect of your
 11 case?
 12      A    evidencewise, I would say there is a good
 13 possibility of that, yes.
 14      Q    And as of today you still have not received any
 15 reports from him?  Is that your testimony?
 16      A    No.  I have received reports from him.  But the
 17 reporting procedure is ongoing.  The investigation is
 18 ongoing.  I get reports from various entities on a daily
 19 basis, sometimes as many as 50 or 100 pages of various
 20 things.
 21      Q    When you and your partner and the two West L.A.
 22 homicide detectives left Bundy to go to Rockingham, who did
 23 you leave in charge of Bundy?
 24      A    Lt. Rogers.
 25      Q    Did you instruct him, even though he is your
 26 supervisor, as to what to do?
 27      A    Basically what to do was to secure the scene
 28 until I arrived, until I returned.
 01      Q    Until you came back?
 02      A    I'm sorry?
 03      Q    Until you came back?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    And that meant not to let anybody in or out and
 06 maintain the perimeter?
 07      A    Not necessarily.
 08      Q    What did that mean when you told him -- when you
 09 gave him instructions that you were leaving?
 10      A    To secure the location and that we would be
 11 returning.
 12      Q    What did that mean?  What were you conveying
 13 to Lt. Rogers to do?
 14      A    That I was leaving for a short time and that I
 15 would soon be returning.
 16      Q    And what was he to do at your direction?
 17      A    Remain at the premises.
 18      Q    And do what?  Sit there?  Go to sleep?
 19 Investigate?
 20      A    Make sure that no one disturbed the crime scene,
 21 basically.
 22      Q    So he was now in charge of no one entering the
 23 crime scene area?
 24      A    No; not necessarily.
 25      Q    Was he in charge of continuing the investigation
 26 at Bundy?
 27      A    He was in charge of anything that might have come
 28 up while he was there until I arrived back.
 01      Q    Would you say that your investigation had been
 02 completed at the Bundy scene at the time you left for
 03 Rockingham?
 04      A    Certainly not.  It hadn't started.
 05      Q    And did you instruct him to do anything regarding
 06 the crime scene investigation, as your supervisor, when you
 07 left to go to Rockingham?
 08      A    The instructions were -- it was mutually
 09 understood that he would remain there until I returned.
 10 There were no specific instructions to do this or to do
 11 that.
 12      Q    Does the murder book or chronological record
 13 indicate whether Lt. Rogers conducted a crime scene
 14 investigation in your absence?
 15      A    I don't believe you would find that in there.
 16      Q    Did you ask him if he did?
 17      A    No.
 18      Q    Is that something you would want to know?
 19      A    If Lt. Rogers conducted the crime scene
 20 investigation?
 21      Q    In your absence.
 22      A    No.
 23           It was a mutual understanding that, in fact, was
 24 my duty and I would do that once I returned, perhaps with
 25 his assistance.
 26      Q    What time did you return to begin your crime
 27 scene investigation at the Bundy location?
 28      A    It was approximately 6:45 a.m.
 01      Q    So that's now 6 hours and 45 minutes after the
 02 report -- the last report of the death; is that correct?
 03      A    Roughly.
 04      Q    Is there any benefit in starting a crime scene
 05 investigation as soon as possible?
 06      A    There certainly could be.
 07      Q    Could there be in this case?
 08      A    Well, that would be open to speculation; and,
 09 certainly, down the road we may know more about this case
 10 and find out at that time.  At this point it is kind of up
 11 in the air.
 12      Q    Based on what you know now, would it have been
 13 your preference to conduct a crime scene investigation
 14 at Bundy as soon as possible?
 15      Ms. clark:  Objection.  That is irrelevant, and it is
 16 vague.
 17      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 18 BY mr. shapiro:
 19      Q    When you went to Rockingham, did you direct any
 20 officers to do a door-to-door search of the surrounding
 21 neighbors?
 22      Ms. clark:  Objection.  Vague.  Search?
 23      THE COURT:  Are you talking about the surrounding
 24 neighbors of Bundy or Rockingham?
 25      Mr. shapiro:  At Bundy.
 26      THE COURT:  At Bundy?
 27      Mr. shapiro:  Yes.
 28      THE COURT:  And by "search," just what do you mean?
 01      Mr. shapiro:  Let me clarify that.  That was a very
 02 poorly phrased question.
 03      Q    Did you direct any officers to door-knock
 04 surrounding residents to ascertain if anybody saw anything
 05 at Bundy?
 06      A    I don't recall doing that.
 07      Q    Do you have any notes to reflect you did that?
 08      A    No.
 09      Q    Would you say that it would be appropriate to
 10 start at 874 south Bundy, where a suspicious person was
 11 reported, to begin looking for potential witnesses?
 12      A    Not necessarily.
 13      Q    Have you reviewed, up until today, any
 14 communication tapes to see if there were any prowler or
 15 burglar calls in the immediate area prior to June 13, 1994,
 16 at 0110 (sic) hours?
 17      A    Nothing.
 18      Q    During your investigation, have you determined
 19 if in the last few years there have been any similar
 20 homicides reported in Los Angeles?
 21      Ms. clark:  Objection.  Vague.
 22      THE COURT:  As to "similar"?
 23      ms. clark:  Similar to what, in what way?
 24 by Mr. shapiro:
 25      Q     -- Similar to --
 26      mr. shapiro:  Let me rephrase it.
 27      THE COURT:  All right.
 01 BY mr. shapiro:
 02      Q    -- Similar to the homicide you are investigating
 03 in this case?
 04      ms. clark:  Same objection with respect to --
 05      the court:  You mean a double murder of an adult male
 06 and female?
 07      Mr. shapiro:  Yes.  Similar circumstances; that a
 08 male and female were murdered under the same or similar
 09 circumstances.
 10      Q    That's one of the things you do in your
 11 investigation, isn't it -- see if there are patterns of
 12 homicides?
 13      Ms. clark:  Objection.  It is still vague.  What
 14 circumstances?  Males and females are, unfortunately,
 15 murdered every day.
 16           In what respect is counsel inquiring as to the
 17 similarity?
 18      THE COURT:  Did you look to see if you had any
 19 similar sort of crime reports to the incident there on
 20 Bundy?
 21      THE WITNESS:  No, your honor.
 22 BY mr. shapiro:
 23      Q    Are you familiar with something called a homicide
 24 manual of the Los Angeles police department?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    And, I take it, you read that; you follow that?
 27      A    I have read it.  It hasn't been updated in a
 28 number of years.  And I am familiar with it.
 01      Q    So you think the manual is out of date?
 02      A    Well, it certainly could be.  It is not a
 03 Hard-and-fast text on how to conduct a homicide
 04 investigation.
 05      Q    Do you agree with the statement in the homicide
 06 manual that the preliminary investigation at the scene is
 07 the most important and possibly the most sensitive aspect
 08 of the homicide investigation?
 09      A    I am a little ambivalent about that.  Yes and
 10 no.
 11           It certainly is important.  It is not necessarily
 12 the most important thing that exists.
 13      Q    Would you agree with this statement in the
 14 manual:  that good note-keeping is the foundation of a good
 15 homicide investigator?
 16      A    That is a basic that is certainly preferable,
 17 yes.
 18      Q    Do you agree with this statement in the
 19 manual:  that accurate, comprehensive and chronological
 20 notes not only coordinate the investigation but allow the
 21 detective to present the possible case in court, sometimes
 22 years later?
 23      A    Once again, as a guideline, under perfect
 24 circumstances, it is certainly something you would want,
 25 yes.
 26      Q    Were field interview cards completed on all
 27 possible witnesses?
 28      A    We have over a hundred witnesses.
 01           No.  I don't believe so.
 02      Q    Were neighbors interviewed in the direct
 03 proximity of the crime scene who did not hear anything
 04 unusual between 10 o'clock and 12 o'clock?
 05      A    I haven't had a chance to review all of the
 06 neighbors' statements; So I am not sure whether a
 07 recordation was made of that.
 08      Q    Were any crime scene broadcasts initiated?
 09      A    Again, I haven't reviewed the communications
 10 tape; so I don't know.
 11      Q    Did you order that there be no smoking or eating
 12 permitted within the crime scene area?
 13      A    I did not.
 14      Q    Have you obtained a detailed report of what all
 15 the officers at the crime scene reported and the actions
 16 they took immediately upon arrival at the crime scene?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    Have you ascertained how many officers had gained
 19 entry into the crime scene prior to your arrival?
 20      A    Yes.
 21           That should be contained within the statements.
 22      Q    Have you asked the officers to recreate their
 23 movements?
 24      A    Yes.
 25           I have not personally.  It was done by detective
 26 phillips.
 27      Q    But that is all recorded --
 28      A    At my direction, Yes.
 01      Q    Did you ascertain if any officers smoked at the
 02 crime scene?
 03      A    That, too, would be contained in their
 04 statements.
 05      Q    Did you ascertain if any of the officers or
 06 any media personnel drank any coffee at the crime
 07 scenes?
 08      Ms. clark:  Objection.  That is vague.
 09      THE COURT:  When you say "crime scenes," do you
 10 mean now both Rockingham and Bundy?
 11      Mr. shapiro:  Both.
 12           Well, there are three crime scenes.  There's
 13 chicago --
 14      Q    Would you agree there are three crime scenes in
 15 this investigation?
 16      A    I would agree there are two and perhaps a
 17 third which I will term a potential crime scene.
 18      Q    Let's talk about the two that you would term as
 19 crime scenes.
 20           Do you have knowledge of anybody drinking
 21 coffee in the areas of the crime scenes after they were
 22 cordoned off?
 23      A    At the scene, directly at the scene?
 24           No, I don't.  I am not aware of anyone who was
 25 drinking coffee.
 26      Q    As the officer in charge, would you say that
 27 both crime scenes were protected from destruction or
 28 contamination of evidence by onlookers as well as news
 01 media personnel?
 02      A    Number one, I was primarily in charge of the
 03 investigation of the Bundy scene.  I was not at the
 04 Rockingham scene but for a short time.  I was -- and the
 05 Bundy scene was, in fact, secure, yes.
 06      Q    Who was in charge of the Rockingham scene?
 07      A    Detective Vannatter.
 08      Q    Would you agree or disagree that standing or
 09 walking at the crime scene, leaning against doors, walls
 10 or windows may destroy valuable evidence, latent
 11 fingerprints, hair or skin specimens?
 12      A    Possibly.
 13      ms. clark:  objection.  Irrelevant.
 14      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 15      mr. shapiro:  If I may just have a moment, your Honor.
 16      THE COURT:  Yes.
 17 BY mr. shapiro:
 18      Q    Did you determine if any police officer checked
 19 the shoes of the witnesses who discovered the bodies?
 20      A    It was related to me that -- I believe, that was
 21 done around the time that the dog's paws were observed; but
 22 i did not direct that or have personal knowledge of that.
 23      Q    Are there any reports to indicate that was done?
 24      A    There may well be.  I haven't had time to review
 25 those.
 26      Q    Is there somebody you can check with now to see
 27 if there are such notes?
 28      A    Well, again, all of the notes and statements
 01 aren't in.
 02           I suppose I could check the officers section.  I
 03 am not aware if that would be in there or not, though.
 04      Q    How many footprints that would relate to shoes
 05 in blood did you observe at Bundy?
 06      A    I don't have a number.
 07      Q    Has anybody calculated the number?
 08      A    That was assigned to the criminalist.
 09           Again, as the footprints moved away in a westerly
 10 direction, they faded; so I don't know that you would get
 11 an accurate number.  But they were charted by the
 12 criminalist.
 13      Q    They were?
 14      A    I'm sorry?
 15      Q    They were or weren't?
 16      A    Charted?
 17      Q    They were charted?
 18      A    Well, by "charted," I am referring to
 19 photographed and measured.  And I requested a so-called
 20 stride analysis.
 21      Q    Have you received that yet?
 22      A    No.
 23           Again, I may have it in my reports.  I have
 24 hundreds.  I haven't been through them all.
 25      Q    Would you check because we have not received that
 26 yet, either.
 27      A    There is a good chance we haven't, either.
 28      ms. clark:  I would ask we conduct this discovery
 01 procedure off the record, then.
 02      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, you are entitled to that; but
 03 let's have the witness check on that --
 04      mr. shapiro:  Thank you.  I am not going to ask him to
 05 do that now.
 06      THE COURT:  Okay.
 07 by mr. shapiro:
 08      Q    Were you able to determine whether the blood
 09 imprints from the shoe were all from the same shoe?
 10      Ms. clark:  Objection.  That calls for speculation.
 11 No foundation.
 12      THE COURT:  Are you able to give an answer to that
 13 question?
 14      THE WITNESS:  No, your honor.
 15 BY mr. shapiro:
 16      Q    Has anybody reported to you there was more than
 17 one type of shoe print with blood on it at the scene?
 18      A    No.
 19      Q    Have you talked to the criminalist about this?
 20      A    In regards to these shoe prints, no.
 21      Q    Is that something you would deem important?
 22      Ms. clark:  Well, objection.  Vague -- something that
 23 he would deem important.
 24      THE COURT:  Speaking to the criminalist about the
 25 shoes?
 26      Mr. shapiro:  Yes.
 27      ms. clark:  What about the shoes, though?  That they
 28 existed; they were the same shoe; it was the same tread;
 01 they existed at all; where they were found?
 02      THE COURT:  I interpret the question is whether
 03 there was more than one maker of the shoe prints.
 04      mr. shapiro:  That was my understanding.
 05      THE COURT:  With that understanding, can you answer
 06 that?
 07      THE WITNESS:  Yes.  And it is my belief that the shoe
 08 prints probably belong to a suspect or were left by a
 09 suspect, and we would certainly like to find out what type
 10 of shoes they are.
 11 BY mr. shapiro:
 12      Q    I'm sorry.  Your voice is trailing.  I couldn't
 13 hear the end of the answer.
 14      A    Could you repeat the question again?  I want to
 15 give you an accurate answer.
 16      Q    Have you discussed with the criminalist whether
 17 or not the blood prints from the shoes indicate one pair of
 18 shoes or more than one pair of shoes?
 19      A    In a general discussion at the time at the crime
 20 scene location, it was the opinion of the criminalist that
 21 it appeared they were one.
 22           To my knowledge, these prints have not been
 23 analyzed and the work has not been completed; so I have
 24 made no other requests at this time and had no other
 25 conversations regarding them.
 26      Q    Do you have a report indicating how many spots of
 27 blood were found at the Bundy residence -- that you have
 28 referred to as drops -- that did not belong to nicole brown
 01 or ronald Goldman?
 02      A    I may have that report, yes.
 03      Q    Do you know offhand how many that was?
 04      A    It seems to me it was initially five droplets
 05 on the walkway.
 01      Q    And have you or anybody at your direction
 02 ascertained when those droplets originated?
 03      A    When?
 04      Q    Yes.   How long they had been there.
 05      A    I don't believe there's any way to determine
 06 that.
 07      MR. SHAPIRO:  I don't have any further questions at
 08 this time, Your Honor, thank you.
 09      THE COURT:  Thank you.
 10           Ms. Clark, do you have any redirect?
 11      MS. CLARK:  Yes, thank you, Your Honor.
 13                   REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 16      Q    Sir, do you have other detectives assisting
 17 you on this case besides detective Vannatter?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    And is it fairly common in the homicide
 20 special section to have other detectives in the unit
 21 assist in the investigation of one team of detectives?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    And are you aware at this time of every piece
 24 of work or report that each of those detectives have
 25 generated?
 26      A    No.
 27      Q    Would you say that this investigation is in --
 28 is an ongoing one, with reports being generated every
 01 day?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    As time goes by, do you expect to catch up
 04 with the reports that have been generated in this case?
 05      A    I hope so.
 06      Q    And to read everything that you have?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    And to confer with all of the experts in the
 09 case?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    With respect to the criminalist, sir, at this
 12 time the shoe prints have been preserved with respect to
 13 the blood and the swabbing and the photographing; is
 14 that correct?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    Has there been any attempt to analyze those
 17 shoe prints any further at this point by that
 18 criminalist?
 19      A    I don't believe so.
 20      Q    Is it your intention to have that done?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    Are there many things that you intend to have
 23 done in this case before it proceeds to trial?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, I'm going to object to
 26 the form of the question.   It assumes a fact that the
 27 court is going to hopefully determine.
 28      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 01      MR. SHAPIRO:  Motion to strike the answer.
 02      THE COURT:  Stricken.
 03      MS. CLARK:  All I meant -- I'm sorry.
 05      Q    All I meant by that was as the case goes on,
 06 there's going to be many things for you to do, assuming
 07 the case goes on?
 08      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, we have a man who's in
 09 custody without bail, and I think that's a very improper
 10 question and is very prejudicial.
 11      THE COURT:  Overruled.
 13      Q    Let me ask you this, sir.
 14           In the course of every case that you have
 15 handled -- and you indicated you've handled 2- to 300
 16 homicides?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    -- is the investigation always ongoing?
 19      A    Yes.
 20      Q    And at the stage of a preliminary hearing for
 21 every one of those homicides, is the investigation an
 22 ongoing thing?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    With many things left to do at the stage of
 25 the preliminary hearing?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    And this case is no exception.
 28      A    That's correct.
 01      Q    Is it unusual to get leads regarding multiple
 02 suspects during an investigation, sir?
 03      A    No.
 04      Q    In fact, during the course of an entire case?
 05      A    No.
 06      Q    And if you don't personally go out to
 07 investigate those leads, you do assign those leads to be
 08 investigated by someone.
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    You were asked by counsel why you didn't look
 11 for other similar homicides.
 12      A    I believe it was something like that, yes.
 13      Q    And you indicated you did not.
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    Why?
 16      A    Well, again, we're in the early, early stages
 17 in this investigation.   At this particular point, this
 18 would not be an appropriate time to do it.   There is a
 19 suspect in custody and we are proceeding against that
 20 particular suspect.
 21           Eventually, this is probably something that
 22 very possibly could be done or it may not be done.
 23      Q    And when we say "similar homicides," did you
 24 understand that to mean like a serial killing?
 25      A    I didn't know exactly what he was referring
 26 to.
 27      Q    Sir, is it common in an investigation,
 28 particularly with respect to a homicide, to have
 01 neighbors in the immediate vicinity contacted by police
 02 officers to determine what, if anything, they saw or
 03 heard?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    Was that done in this case?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    And although -- did you direct that it be
 08 done?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    Now, you indicated that in the log a captain
 11 of the Fire Department did show up on the scene and it
 12 was indicated in your log that he was not needed.
 13           Is that correct?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    Does it indicate in your log how long he was
 16 at the scene?
 17      A    If I could consult the log.
 18      Q    Certainly.
 19      A    The log indicates he was at the scene for five
 20 minutes.
 21      Q    Five minutes.
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    In your experience, sir, is it common for
 24 captains of the Fire Department to interact with the
 25 bodies of homicide victims?
 26      A    It would depend.   Possibly.   Perhaps not.
 27      Q    The fact that he was shown to be there only
 28 five minutes with an indication that he was not needed,
 01 what did that mean to you?
 02      MR. SHAPIRO:  Objection; calls for speculation.
 03      THE COURT:  Overruled.
 04      THE WITNESS:  Told me it would mean that he was
 05 aware that the incident had occurred and he was dropping
 06 by as the supervisor to see if the fire department's
 07 assistance might be needed for anything.
 09      Q    Did it indicate to you that he had had any
 10 interaction with the bodies of the victims?
 11      A    No.
 12      Q    did it indicated to you that it did not?
 13 Did that indicate to you that he did not have any
 14 interaction with the bodies of the victims?
 15      MR. SHAPIRO:  Objection; calls for speculation.
 16      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 18      Q    Okay.   In your experience, sir, is it
 19 generally the paramedics who have interaction with the
 20 bodies?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    And when that occurs before you arrive at a
 23 crime scene, in your experience, sir, when you come on
 24 the scene after they have attended to the bodies, is
 25 there some way that you can tell they have been there
 26 before you?
 27      A    Yes.   They will leave an ambulance slip.
 28      Q    An ambulance slip?
 01      A    Ambulance slip indicating they've been there,
 02 and the unit and time of death, this type of thing.
 03      Q    Is there something about the condition of the
 04 bodies of the victims that tells you that paramedics
 05 have been there to attend to them before you arrive?
 06      A    Sometimes if paramedics have been there the
 07 body position will be altered.
 08      Q    Have you ever seen the electrocardiogram, the
 09 pads that they use for reviving someone that they place
 10 on them to revive the heart?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    And did you see that in this case?
 13      A    No.
 14      Q    But that is frequently left on the bodies of
 15 victims when paramedics have attended to them before
 16 you've arrived?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    Was there anything about the bodies as you saw
 19 them in this case that indicated to you that they had
 20 been disturbed by anyone in any way?
 21      A    No.
 22      Q    Do you happen to know when the coroner's
 23 investigator arrived?
 24      A    I have that notated here in my log.   If I
 25 may.
 26           Investigator Ratcliffe arrived at 9:10 a.m.
 27      Q    Where were you at that time, sir?
 28      A    I was at the Bundy location.
 01      Q    So you saw the coroner's investigator arrive?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    Isn't it policy, sir, that no one is to touch
 04 the body of a victim before the coroner's investigator
 05 arrives?
 06      A    That's correct.
 07      Q    And you were present when that coroner's
 08 investigator got there.
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    You indicated, I think, that you did not
 11 direct anyone to not smoke or drink at the crime scene
 12 at 875 south Bundy.
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    Why didn't you?
 15      A    It's generally a given that an officer has
 16 been trained and knows better than to smoke or eat at a
 17 crime scene.
 18           If someone had been observed doing that, we
 19 would have jumped on them right away.   That is not
 20 tolerated at a crime scene, and that's general
 21 knowledge.
 22      Q    So when there's tape around a scene that has
 23 been secured with the police tape as a barrier, whatever
 24 is inside that scene, no one is allowed to go in there
 25 and do anything like smoke or drink or eat.
 26      A    That's correct.
 27      Q    And if something like that were to occur, it
 28 would be very unusual?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    And a report would be made?
 03      A    Certainly.
 04      Q    was there any such report made in this case?
 05      A    Not to my knowledge.
 06      Q    Was there any indication made to you that the
 07 crime scene at 875 south Bundy was disturbed in that
 08 manner behind the yellow tape in any way?
 09      A    No.
 10      Q    You indicated that it was more important to
 11 get a criminalist to Rockingham Avenue than to the Bundy
 12 address at one point during your testimony on
 13 cross-examination.
 14           Do you recall that?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    Why?
 17      A    The Bundy location was a secured location.
 18 The victims, the evidence, were secure.   Nothing was
 19 going anywhere.
 20           At the Rockingham location, it was an
 21 unsecured location.   There was a vehicle that was
 22 parked at that location with a possible blood stain on
 23 it that we wanted analyzed.   It was parked partially
 24 blocking the street.
 25           Again, it was unsecured and we needed it --
 26 needed that possible blood stain to be analyzed first.
 27 It just made sense because we had the other location
 28 secured.
 01           So we wanted the Rockingham thing out of the
 02 way and then the criminalist was to proceed on to Bundy.
 03      Q    Well, you indicated earlier that the
 04 Rockingham address was not a crime scene.
 05      A    It was not  --
 06      Q    And no crime scene log was generated for it
 07 because it was not a crime scene.
 08           Can you explain that?
 09      A    When I was at the location, it was not a crime
 10 scene.   The criminalist -- when I was there with the
 11 criminalist that was requested was there to only test
 12 the blood on the Bronco vehicle.   I left before the
 13 criminalist arrived.
 14      Q    In the 2- to 300 homicides that you've
 15 investigated, sir, has it every occurred before that you
 16 have left a crime scene before it was completed in the
 17 processing?
 18      A    It seems to me there have been instances, yes.
 19      Q    And that when you left the crime scene in
 20 previous cases before the processing was complete, you
 21 intended to return?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    Was that your intention when you left 875
 24 south Bundy for the Rockingham address?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    Did you expect to be back fairly quickly?
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    So when you left lieutenant Rogers at the
 01 875 south Bundy address -- and I believe you indicated
 02 you did not intend for him to process the crime scene
 03 for you -- you left him there thinking that you were
 04 going to be back in a few minutes.
 05      A    Yes, short time.
 06      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 07      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro?
 08      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you very much, Your Honor.
 10                   RECROSS-EXAMINATION
 13      Q    Detective, to your knowledge does the
 14 Los Angeles Police Department employ more than one
 15 criminalist?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    And if you wanted two criminalists at two
 18 different scenes, would that be available to you?
 19      A    I don't know.
 20      Q    Did you try?
 21      A    Did I try?
 22      Q    Yes.
 23      A    No.
 24      Q    You were present at the autopsy?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    You've talked to the coroner who conducted it?
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    You were present and directed the crime scene
 01 photographs to be taken.
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    You were present and directed the criminalist
 04 in his activities.
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    And you later caused to be purchased a
 07 stiletto knife from Ross cutlery; is that correct?
 08      A    No.
 09      Q    Did anyone from your department purchase a
 10 stiletto knife from Ross cutlery?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    You're aware of that knife?
 13      A    Oh, yes.
 14      Q    You've seen it?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    You've shared that with the criminalist?
 17      A    I'm sorry, "shared it"?
 18      Q    have you showed it to the criminalist?
 19      A    I don't know if it was shown to a criminalist
 20 or not.
 21      Q    Did you show it to the coroner?
 22      A    No.
 23      Q    Is it your opinion that this knife or one
 24 substantially similar to it was the murder weapon?
 25      A    Would be pure conjecture with the knowledge
 26 that I have in regards to that knife.
 27      MS. CLARK:  In that case, calls for speculation.
 28 Objection.
 01      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 02      MR. SHAPIRO:  Nothing further.
 03      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark, anything else?
 04      MS. CLARK:  One question, your honor, I'm sorry.
 06               further REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 09      Q    Sir, is it preferable to use one criminalist
 10 in a case to process all the scenes related to one case?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    And why is that?
 13      A    To maintain a certain order and custody of
 14 evidence, to have one person with knowledge of more than
 15 one scene, someone who is up on everything that's going
 16 on with both scenes.
 17           It's important for chain of custody of
 18 evidence.   It's important to be on the same page with
 19 the criminalist, and it would be very difficult to
 20 employ more than one criminalist unless it was
 21 absolutely necessary.
 22      Q    And if you have one criminalist who processes
 23 all scenes, he's going to know what's important at each
 24 scene because he's seen them all and he may pick up
 25 things that you haven't?
 26      A    Oh, yes.
 27      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 28      THE COURT:  Anything further?
 01      MR. SHAPIRO:  This witness may be excused.
 02      THE COURT:  thank you very much, sir.   You may
 03 step down.   Do not discuss your testimony with anyone
 04 but the lawyers in the matter.
 05           Next witness, please.
 06      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor.
 07           The people call Detective Vannatter.   Recall.
 08      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, I would offer to
 09 stipulate that detective Vannatter's testimony during
 10 the motion to suppress can be incorporated and made part
 11 of the record for the preliminary hearing.
 12      THE COURT:  Is that agreeable, Ms. Clark?
 13      MS. CLARK:  Yes, it is.
 14           Thank you, counsel.
 15      THE COURT:  Do we still need to hear from Detective
 16 Vannatter?
 17      MS. CLARK:  we do, for just a few matters actually.
 18      THE COURT:  I think I've said this before.
 19           You've previously been sworn and remain under
 20 oath.   Please have a seat in the witness stand.
 21      THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honor, and thank you.
 23                    phillip vannatter,
 24 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
 25 having been previously called and duly sworn, resumed
 26 the stand and testified further as follows:
 27      THE COURT:  State and spell your name.
 28      THE WITNESS:  Phillip Vannatter.   P-h-i-l-l-i-P,
 01 v-a-n-n-a-t-t-e-r.
 02      THE COURT:  Thank you.
 03           You may inquire.
 05                    DIRECT EXAMINATION
 08      Q    Sir, did you attend the autopsies of the
 09 victims in this matter, Ron Goldman and Nicole Simpson?
 10      A    Yes, I did.
 11      Q    And in the course of that autopsy, sir, did
 12 you observe the coroner to obtain blood from each of the
 13 victims, blood samples?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    Did you recover those vials from the coroner's
 16 lab and return them somewhere?
 17      A    Yes, I did.
 18      Q    Those vials of blood samples that you
 19 recovered from each of the victims, how were they
 20 packaged when you recovered them?
 21      A    They were packaged in small glass vials with a
 22 purple top.
 23      Q    Did they bear some number or description?
 24      A    Yes, they did.
 25      Q    Can you tell us what that was?
 26      A    Certainly.   They had the victim's names and
 27 the coroner case number that corresponds to their names
 28 on the vial.
 01      Q    Showing you People's 2 and 3, sir, can you
 02 tell me whether the people depicted in these photographs
 03 are the ones whose autopsies you attended in this
 04 matter?
 05      A    Yes, they are, yes.
 06      Q    And they are?
 07      A    Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown.   Nicole brown
 08 Simpson.
 09      MS. CLARK:  in People's 2 and 3 respectively,
 10 Your Honor.
 11      THE COURT:  All right.
 13      Q    I'm sorry, sir.
 14           You described the packaging.   Did that bear a
 15 number?
 16      A    Yes, it did.
 17      Q    What number was that?
 18      A    The coroner's case number for Mr. Goldman
 19 was 945135, and the number for Nicole Brown Simpson
 20 was 945136.
 21      Q    And that was on the packages?
 22      A    That was on a label on the glass vial itself.
 23      Q    And what did you do with those vials?
 24      A    I hand carried those to Scientific
 25 Investigation Division, Los Angeles Police Department,
 26 and handed them over to an employee there, Colin
 27 Yamauchi.
 28      Q    What does he do at the police department, sir?
 01      A    He's an employee of the Scientific
 02 Investigation Division that works in the serology
 03 department.
 04      Q    And on what date did you deliver those to him?
 05      A    That would have been the morning after the
 06 autopsy.   It would have been June the 15th.
 07      Q    Now, you've earlier testified regarding a
 08 glove that was found at the south side of the location
 09 of 360 north Rockingham?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      MS. CLARK:  I have a picture.   I ASK it be marked
 12 People's 21.
 13      THE COURT:  All right.
 15      Q    and I ask you if this is the glove that you
 16 saw on the grounds on the south side of Rockingham in
 17 the position in which you saw it?
 18      A    Yes, it does.
 19      Q    Now, you indicated that -- yesterday, sir, at
 20 approximately 7:30 you left the Rockingham address to
 21 secure a search warrant.
 22      A    That's correct.
 23      Q    What time did you return to the Rockingham
 24 address?
 25      A    Shortly after 11:30 in the morning.
 26      Q    And when you returned, did you see anyone
 27 outside the gates of the Rockingham address?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    Who did you see?
 02      A    I saw Mr. Howard Weitzman and Mr. Taft,
 03 Mr. Skip Taft.
 04      Q    And where were they, if you recall?   What
 05 gate?
 06      A    They were standing at the Rockingham gate,
 07 along the north side of the gate.
 08      Q    And where were you when you saw them?
 09      A    I had just parked my car and was walking into
 10 the gate, walking toward the residence.
 11      Q    Did you make contact with them?
 12      A    I spoke to Mr. Weitzman, yes, because I
 13 recognized him, and he spoke to me.
 14      Q    After you spoke to Mr. Weitzman, what happened
 15 next?
 16      A    I continued into the residence with the search
 17 warrant, was there a short time; and I had left
 18 instructions with officers, if Mr. Simpson arrived at
 19 the location, to keep him from coming into the
 20 residence.
 21           And shortly after that period, while I was
 22 inside, I looked down and I saw Mr. Simpson at the
 23 location.
 24      Q    Did you make contact with him, sir?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    When you made contact with him, did you notice
 27 anything unusual about either of his hands?
 28      A    Not at first.   When I first made contact with
 01 him, he had handcuffs on.
 02      Q    Well, what  --
 03      A    Shortly after making contact with him, I
 04 removed the handcuffs and I noticed a bandage on his
 05 left hand, the left middle finger in the upper joint
 06 area.
 07      Q    Now, at some point did you and the defendant
 08 proceed downtown?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    Now, when I said, "Mr. Simpson," then I said,
 11 "the defendant," do you see Mr. Simpson in court today?
 12      A    Yes, I do.
 13      Q    Can you please point him out?
 14      A    Certainly.   He's wearing the dark blue suit,
 15 seated at the end of the counsel table there.
 16      THE COURT:  Indicating the defendant.
 17      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 19      Q    And you transported him downtown?
 20      A    That's correct, yes.
 21      Q    Did anyone else accompany you downtown?
 22      A    Yes, another detective from Robbery Homicide
 23 Division.
 24      Q    And did anyone else meet you downtown at the
 25 same time?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    Who was that?
 28      A    Mr. Weitzman and Mr. Taft.
 01      Q    Once downtown, did you take -- make some
 02 effort to document the condition of his left middle
 03 finger?
 04      A    I did.
 05      Q    What did you do?
 06      A    I took him to the photo lab, photography lab
 07 of the police department, and had it photographed.
 08      Q    Did you cause a blood sample to be taken from
 09 Mr. Simpson?
 10      A    I did.
 11      Q    And did you get his consent to do so?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    Were you present when that blood was taken?
 14      A    Yes, I was.
 15      Q    And was the vial given to you after it was
 16 taken?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    What did you do with that vial?
 19      A    I kept that vial in my possession and
 20 hand-carried it to criminalist Dennis Fung, and turned
 21 it over to him to be booked with the evidence.
 22      Q    And that vial was -- did you do it on the same
 23 day that it was -- the blood was taken from the
 24 defendant?
 25      A    Yes.   The 13th.
 26      Q    Of June?
 27      A    That's correct.
 28      MS. CLARK:  Oh, may I have a moment, Your Honor?
 01      THE COURT:  All right.
 02      MS. CLARK:  I have here a photograph, Your Honor.
 03 Ask it be marked as People's 22.
 04      THE COURT:  All right.
 05                   (Counsel conferred.)
 06      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, may we approach?   Or I
 07 can just put it on the record.
 08      THE COURT:  All right.
 09      MR. SHAPIRO:  I have checked with the lawyers and
 10 investigators from my office, and we do not believe that
 11 we have received a copy of this photograph.
 12           I could take a moment and check with the
 13 criminalist, but I believe -- but my recollection is we
 14 have not seen this photograph, and the date on this
 15 photograph is June 21st of '91.
 16      THE COURT:  '91?
 17      MR. SHAPIRO:  Of '94, I'm sorry.   I can't see,
 18 with or without my glasses.
 01      MS. CLARK:  May I indicate what is on the
 02 photograph, your Honor?
 03      MR. SHAPIRO:  There are two gloves and a ruler.
 04      MS. CLARK:  Two gloves, each of them bearing an item
 05 number that has already been related to this case.
 06           What it does is depict the glove recovered
 07 from the crime scene and the glove recovered from the
 08 house side by side.
 09           I would be delighted to provide counsel with a
 10 copy of that photograph if he feels he does not have one.
 11 I thought we had given him copies of all photographs.
 12           This is not a crime scene photograph at all.  It
 13 is a lab photograph.
 14      THE COURT:  This is a photo that was taken at the
 15 crime lab itself?
 16      MS. CLARK:  Yes.
 17      THE COURT:  Do you have a series of such photos from
 18 the crime lab?
 19      MS. CLARK:  I don't.  As far as I know, that is the
 20 only one; but I don't know.
 21           I thought counsel had all photographs, your
 22 Honor; but I will certainly have it duplicated for him.  It
 23 is not a problem.  It doesn't constitute any evidence he
 24 has not already seen.  It simply puts the two items
 25 together in one picture.
 26      MR. SHAPIRO:  Perhaps we could use another item of
 27 evidence that we have already seen for the purposes of
 28 this examination at this time and give us an opportunity to
 01 examine this photograph.
 02      THE COURT:  Well, I will give you a chance to examine
 03 that photograph.
 04           Do you have other evidence that you can present
 05 with regard to this at this point?
 06      MS. CLARK:  I don't know how long it takes counsel to
 07 look at a picture of two gloves, but I will be glad to wait
 08 until he has satisfied himself that he can match the item
 09 numbers of the gloves with the item numbers on his property
 10 report and the appearance of those gloves with the
 11 appearance of the gloves in the photographs he has already
 12 got.
 13      MR. SHAPIRO:  I would say it would take me time to get
 14 expert witnesses from New York, from other parts of the
 15 United States, to review this.  I am obviously capable of
 16 looking at it and seeing it is two gloves.
 17           If that is the only purpose of this photograph, I
 18 think detective Vannatter can identify hundreds of pictures
 19 of gloves that we have.  It is just ironic there is one
 20 picture we don't have that they want to use for some
 21 reason.
 22      MS. CLARK:  It is one photograph that we have that
 23 shows the two gloves in one place, side by side.  That's
 24 all, your Honor.
 25           I don't understand counsel's objection.  I don't
 26 see why it takes an expert to look at a picture of two
 27 gloves.
 28      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, I am not going to preclude
 01 Miss Clark from utilizing the photo.  I take her word for
 02 the fact this is a photo of apparently the gloves that we
 03 have heard testimony concerning in this preliminary
 04 hearing.  You are entitled to a copy of it.  They have
 05 indicated they would provide one to you.
 06           When can that be provided?  Do you know?
 07      MS. CLARK:  Right now.  I will give counsel my copy.
 08      THE COURT:  You have a smaller version of what he is
 09 holding in his hand?
 10      MS. CLARK:  Yes, I do.
 11      THE COURT:  Okay.  Let's hand that over to defense
 12 counsel.
 13      MR. SHAPIRO:  Are there any other photographs we
 14 haven't received, your Honor?
 15      THE COURT:  That I don't know.
 16      MS. CLARK:  I have just been handed a series of
 17 photographs that are all crime lab photographs of the
 18 gloves.  I believe counsel does have them, but I will be
 19 glad to give him these again and have another set made for
 20 myself.
 21      MR. SHAPIRO:  We have inventoried each and every item
 22 of evidence that has been received, and we have not
 23 received those photographs.
 24      MS. CLARK:  That representation was made to me
 25 yesterday, and other counsel for the defense indicated they
 26 did indeed have what they said they didn't have; So I would
 27 ask Mr. Shapiro to examine the items he has been given to
 28 date again.
 01      THE COURT:  Is that something you can do in a short
 02 period of time?
 03      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yeah.  We have them all cataloged.
 04      MS. CLARK:  How do we know what he has back at his
 05 office, your Honor?
 06           I am turning over all of these photographs that
 07 were taken at the crime lab.  These are my only set.  And
 08 ordinarily we order two sets, which would indicate to me
 09 counsel has his. But in an abundance of caution, I am going
 10 to turn them over again and I am going to get another set
 11 for myself.
 12      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 13           The last time we got these, we got a bill for
 14 $4,000.
 15           That is very kind of you.
 16      MS. CLARK:  May I proceed?
 17      THE COURT:  Yes.  Let's proceed.
 19      Q    Sir, showing you what has now been marked as
 20 People's 22, do you recognize what I am showing you?
 21      A    Yes, I do.
 22      Q    Now, do you see beneath each of these gloves that
 23 there is an item number?
 24      A    I do.
 25      Q    What is an item number?
 26      A    That is an item number of a piece of evidence
 27 that has been recovered and booked as evidence with our
 28 crime lab.
 01      Q    And are you familiar with the property report
 02 that lists the item numbers for the evidence that was
 03 recovered in this case, sir?
 04      A    Yes, I am.
 05      Q    was each of the gloves recovered, the one at the
 06 875 south Bundy address and the one at the 360 Rockingham
 07 address, given a separate item number?
 08      A    Yes, it was.
 09      Q    Do you recognize the item numbers shown in
 10 People's 22?
 11      A    I do.
 12      Q    Can you tell us, sir, whether those are the item
 13 numbers that go to each of those respective addresses for
 14 each glove?
 15      A    Yes.
 16           Item No. 9 is the glove that was recovered at 360
 17 Rockingham, and item 37 is the glove recovered at 875 south
 18 Bundy.
 19      Q    Do items also receive a second number, a
 20 photograph number?
 21      A    They normally get what is called a "c" number,
 22 and it is issued by the photography department; and then
 23 the crime report D.R. number is affixed, also.
 24      Q    For example, in the exhibit next to you, which is
 25 People's 19, in "B," "C" -- actually, all of them, you see
 26 these numbers?
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    Those are photo numbers, sir?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    As opposed to item numbers?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, I am going to object to this
 05 series of photographs being shown.
 06           May we be heard at side bar?
 07      THE COURT:  Yes.
 08           You may be heard in chambers.
 09      MS. CLARK:  At side bar?
 10      THE COURT:  Yes.  There is not a side bar in this
 11 courtroom.
 12      MS. CLARK:  Shall I take the exhibit back?
 13      THE COURT:  Sure. Bring the exhibit back.
 14           Mr. Reporter.
 15                (the following proceedings were
 16                Held in chambers: )
 17      THE COURT:  All right.  The record should reflect that
 18 we are in chambers, equivalent to side bar; We have
 19 Mr. Hodgman and Miss Clark, Mr. Uelmen and Mr. Shapiro, the
 20 court reporter and myself.
 21      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, your Honor.
 22           We are going to object as being unduly
 23 prejudicial putting three photographs together that are not
 24 related.
 25           One is a photograph of Mr. Simpson taken on the
 26 13th, of his index finger; and right next to it are the two
 27 gloves.
 28           I think the inference is more than clear and the
 01 prejudicial effect outweighs the probative value.
 02           Were the three photographs to be introduced
 03 individually, we have no objection to that; But to do it on
 04 this board is, to me, outrageous.
 05      MS. CLARK:  Well, "outrageous" is hardly the term, but
 06 I would remind the court we don't have a jury; This is a
 07 preliminary hearing --
 08      THE COURT:  I am well aware of that.
 09      MS. CLARK:  -- Number one.
 10           And number two, if counsel has no objection to
 11 them individually, then he certainly cannot legally object
 12 to having them all together, collectively, on one board.
 13           It simply -- I don't think I have heard a legal
 14 objection that would appropriately be made at a preliminary
 15 hearing.
 16           I don't think the court is going to be unduly
 17 prejudiced by seeing three photographs in one spot as
 18 opposed to having them shown singly.
 19      THE COURT:  I don't believe that the photos --
 20      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I be heard just briefly?
 21           I don't believe the court is going to be
 22 prejudiced at all, but there is a group of photographers
 23 out there.  My information is they are sending this
 24 transmission worldwide to potential members of this jury,
 25 if there ever should be a jury, and that by doing this,
 26 there is no other purpose than to unduly influence them by
 27 having this picture on the front page of some type of
 28 magazine.
 01      THE COURT:  The court was very concerned with regard
 02 to photographs of the crime scene.  We handled that in a
 03 way I thought was appropriate for both sides.
 04           I do not find that these particular photos
 05 depicted in the manner that they are depicted are the same
 06 nature and type as those other photos that we handled in
 07 another way.
 08           the mere fact that there is a picture of the hand
 09 and a picture of the gloves on one board I do not feel is
 10 of such a nature that we would prejudice the defendant's
 11 ability to get a fair trial should at some point he go to
 12 trial.
 13           So, therefore, your objection is overruled.
 14           Let's go back out.
 15      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 16                (the following proceedings were
 17                Held in open court:)
 18      THE COURT:  All right.  We are again on the record in
 19 the case of people v. Simpson.  The defendant is present
 20 with counsel.  The people are represented.  The detective
 21 is on the witness stand.
 22           Miss Clark.
 23      MS. CLARK:  Yes.
 24           The objection was overruled, your Honor?
 25      THE COURT:  That's correct.
 26      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 27           Ask this series of photographs be marked as
 28 People's 23.
 01      THE COURT:  All right.
 03      Q    Sir, showing you People's 23, can you tell us if
 04 you recognize what is being shown here?
 05      A    Yes, I recognize it.
 06      Q    First of all, tell us what is in photograph "A."
 07      A    photograph "a" is a picture of Mr. Simpson's left
 08 hand middle finger, at the upper knuckle, that was taken at
 09 my direction in the photo lab.
 10      Q    Does it accurately depict the condition of that
 11 knuckle as you saw it when you had the picture taken at
 12 parker center?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    Was there only one cut on that finger, sir?
 15      A    There was a smaller laceration down towards the
 16 first knuckle that doesn't show up there very well.  It was
 17 a small laceration that ran across the finger -- across the
 18 finger and down.
 19      Q    Now, the gloves that are shown in "B" and "C"
 20 of People's 23 --
 21      a    Yes?
 22      Q    -- do you recognize those, sir?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    And what are those?
 25      A    Those are the two gloves that were found at 875
 26 south Bundy and 360 north Rockingham.
 27      Q    Now, the glove in item -- in photograph "B"
 28 contains "item No. 9."
 01           You see that?
 02      A    Yes.  I can see that.
 03      Q    And, as you earlier testified, that was the glove
 04 that was recovered from the Rockingham address?
 05      A    That's correct, yes.
 06      Q    In photograph "C" we have "No. 102" shown as to
 07 that glove.
 08      A    Okay.
 09      Q    Does that reflect a photo number or item number?
 10      A    That reflects a photo number.
 11      Q    And are the photo numbers and item numbers
 12 correlated?
 13      A    Yes, they are; in the property report.
 14      Q    So that photo, No. 102, would correlate to item
 15 No. 37?
 16      A    That's correct, yes.
 17      Q    Can you describe the position of the glove as
 18 it is shown in photograph "b"?  Is that palm up or with the
 19 back of the hand up?
 20      A    That's the palm of the glove that is facing up.
 21      Q    And in photograph "c" can you tell?
 22      A    May I step down where I can --
 23      Q    Sure.
 24      A    Thank you.
 25           That's the back portion of the glove that is
 26 facing up.
 27      Q    And in photograph 22, are these photos palm up or
 28 are they palm down?
 01      A    These are both palm up, showing the palm of the
 02 glove.
 03      Q    Thank you, sir.
 04           Did you observe the backs of the gloves, sir --
 05 the back of the hand of each glove?
 06      A    At what point?
 07      Q    At any point.
 08           Have you ever observed them?
 09      A    I saw the gloves in their original location, and
 10 I was also present when the gloves were shown to the
 11 defense at scientific investigation division; so during
 12 this period, yes, I have seen the back of them.
 13      Q    Can you tell us if they are plain on the back or
 14 if there is any kind of design on the back of the hand?
 15      A    There appears to be a rib design on the back of
 16 the gloves leading towards the back portion, or wrist
 17 portion, of the gloves.
 18      Q    You were gesturing with lines.
 19      A    Straight lines.
 20      ms. clark:  Thank you, sir.
 21           Nothing further.
 22      THE COURT:  Cross.
 23      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, your Honor.
 25                     CROSS-EXAMINATION
 28      Q    Detective Vannatter, when you caused to have
 01 Mr. Simpson's index finger photographed, did you ask for a
 02 criminalist to examine it?
 03      A    No, I did not.
 04      Q    Did you ask for a medical examiner to examine it?
 05      A    As it was being photographed?
 06      Q    Yes.
 07      A    No, sir.
 08      Q    Did you ask for a doctor to examine it?
 09      A    No, sir.
 10      Q    Did you ask for a nurse to examine it?
 11      A    At a later date I did, yes -- or at a later time
 12 I asked for a nurse to examine it.
 13      Q    I am not saying the photograph.  I am saying the
 14 finger.
 15      A    The finger, yes.
 16      Q    So you asked a nurse to examine it?
 17      A    I asked a nurse after the photograph was taken.
 18      Q    After the photograph?
 19      A    Yeah.
 20      Q    Did you ask a doctor, a criminalist or a medical
 21 examiner?
 22      A    No, sir, I didn't.
 23      Q    Did you ask anyone if they could determine how
 24 recent the cut was?
 25      A    No, sir.
 26      Q    Did you ask anyone if they could determine the
 27 severity of the cut?
 28      A    No, sir.
 01      Q    Did you ask anyone if they could determine the
 02 cause of the cut?
 03      A    No, sir.
 04      Q    Did you ask anyone to examine the hand to see if
 05 there were any glass particles that may have caused the
 06 cut?
 07      A    No, sir.
 08      Q    Was this photograph taken before or after
 09 Mr. Simpson gave a statement to you?
 10      A    After.
 11      Q    During the statement, Mr. Simpson told you --
 12      MS. CLARK:  Objection.  Beyond the scope and hearsay.
 13      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 14      MR. SHAPIRO:  On what grounds?
 15      THE COURT:  Well, it appears that it is actually both.
 16      MR. SHAPIRO:  Well, hearsay is admissible.
 17      MS. CLARK:  May we be heard, your Honor?
 18      THE COURT:  Yes.
 19      MS. CLARK:  At side bar?
 20      THE COURT:  Just with regard to the legality of --
 21      MS. CLARK:  It is also beyond the scope.
 22           If counsel would like to take this on direct at
 23 the conclusion of cross-examination, I have no objection;
 24 but with respect to the hearsay, I would like to be heard
 25 at side bar.
 26      THE COURT:  All right.  We will discuss that at side
 27 bar.
 28           We are going to break with regard to the general
 01 proceedings, and I will see counsel in chambers with regard
 02 to this objection.  And we will be in recess until 1:30.
 03      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 04                (the following proceedings were
 05                Held in chambers:)
 06      THE COURT:  All right.  We are again on the record in
 07 the case of people v. Simpson in chambers, without the
 08 defendant.  Both lawyers for the people are here, and
 09 Mr. Uelmen and Mr. Shapiro are here for the defense.
 10           Miss Clark.
 11      MR. HODGMAN:  I will address this one, your Honor.
 12      THE COURT:  Sorry.
 13      MR. SHAPIRO:  It's about time you did something.  The
 14 L.A. TIMES was getting a bit nervous about your
 15 involvement.
 16      MR. HODGMAN:  Well, they will just have to speculate,
 17 I guess.
 18      THE COURT:  And they will do that.
 19      MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, the nature of the objection
 20 is that what counsel is calling for is hearsay evidence;
 21 and pursuant to evidence code section 1220 -- that is their
 22 client's statement, and they cannot be legally the
 23 proponent of that statement.
 24           We legally, under 1220, can introduce that
 25 statement.  At present we don't intend to introduce that
 26 statement at the preliminary hearing.
 27      THE COURT:  What about Prop. 115?  Has that affected
 28 the ability of the defense to present what traditionally --
 01 and I agree with you -- is classic hearsay, the exception
 02 being an admission offered against a party And,
 03 traditionally, it is only offered by the prosecution and
 04 not by the defense?
 05           But what about Prop. 115 at a preliminary
 06 hearing?  Has that changed that?  I mean, presumably
 07 hearsay evidence is admissible.
 08      MR. HODGMAN:  I would submit not, your Honor; We have
 09 a statement of a party opponent, and only the opposing
 10 party can be the proponent of that statement.
 11           We are not seeking to introduce that statement.
 12 And we will do some research, if you wish, to satisfy you
 13 on this issue.
 14           My understanding of the law, it is not
 15 admissible; it is hearsay.
 16      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 17      MR. UELMEN:  it is conceded it is hearsay, but
 18 Prop. 115 makes hearsay admissible at a preliminary hearing
 19 if it is offered through the testimony of a police officer
 20 with five years experience.
 21           We have an officer with five years experience on
 22 the stand.  Hearsay is admissible.
 23      THE COURT:  You know, that is my general
 24 understanding; and that has been my ruling in other cases
 25 that nobody cares about, but -- in other cases that has
 26 kind of been my ruling, and I have not seen anybody cite a
 27 case to the contrary.
 28           If you wish some time, we are taking our noon
 01 break.  you know.  I will certainly take the issue up again
 02 at 1:30 in chambers and listen to what everybody has to
 03 say.
 04                (proceedings were had which were
 05                transcribed in volume 11-a and
 06                ordered sealed by the court.)
 07      MR. UELMEN:  Can we get some idea of what the
 08 schedule looks like?
 09      THE COURT:  Yeah.  Can we get some idea of the
 10 schedule?
 11      Ms. clark:  Certainly.
 12           After detective Vannatter concludes his
 13 testimony, I will present the nurse who took the blood from
 14 the defendant, unless you want to stipulate; and then I
 15 will present Dennis Fung, and then I will bring greg
 16 Matheson and then the coroner.
 17      mr. hodgman:  At present we have Dr. Irwin golden, who
 18 is the deputy medical examiner, who performed the
 19 autopsies, scheduled to testify tomorrow.
 20      mr. shapiro:  We should finish tomorrow, then.
 21      THE COURT:  Okay.  That would be delightful.
 22      ms. clark:  It would.
 23      mr. shapiro:  I mean, if we really push today, I
 24 think we should finish tomorrow unless you are going to
 25 go into serology to any great -- are you just going into
 26 blood typing?
 27      Ms. clark:  Enzyme, typing and ABO; but there is no
 28 d.n.a.
 01      mr. shapiro:  And that should go fairly quickly.
 02      ms. clark:  Yes, I would think; Neat but not gaudy.
 03      THE COURT:  Have a good lunch.
 04           We will meet in here at 1:30, then.
 05                (at 12:02 p.m., a recess was
 06                Taken until 1:30 p.m.)
 04                                        )  no. BA097211
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06             VS.                        )
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                                        )
 10                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 12                        )   SS
 22           DATED THIS 7th DAY OF July, 1994.
 24                _____________________________________
 24                      ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 25                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 27                _____________________________________
 27                       ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
 28                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 04                                        )
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06                 VS.                    )   VOLUME 11
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 13                  THURSDAY, JULY 7, 1994
 16                              WILLIAM HODGMAN
 17                              DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
 19                              GERALD UELMEN
 20                              PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
 26                              ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 27                              ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
 27                              OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
 01                        I N D E X
 01                                                     VOIR
 03 PHILLIP VANNATTER               4     14       17
 04 TOM LANGE               18
 05 THANO PERATIS           21     23     30
 06 DENNIS FUNG             31     61     80
 07 GREG MATHESON           81
 11                          -O0O-
 14                         EXHIBITS
 17 4 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                   60
 17                                   (WITHDRAWN)
 01                 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
 02                  THURSDAY, JULY 7, 1994
 03                        1:45 p.m.
 04                          -O0O-
 06         (Proceedings were had in chambers which
 07             were transcribed in Volume 11-A
 08            and ordered sealed by the court.)
 10                          -o0o-
 12   (The following proceedings were had in open court.)
 14      THE COURT:  All right.
 15           We're once again on the record in the case of
 16 people v. Simpson.
 17           The defendant is present with counsel.   The
 18 people are represented.
 19           Could we have the witness return to the
 20 witness stand, please.
 22                    Phillip Vannatter,
 23 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
 24 having been previously called and duly sworn, resumed
 25 the stand and testified further as follows:
 26      THE COURT:  I bet you know what I'm going to say.
 27      THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honor.
 28      THE COURT:  You've previously been sworn and remain
 01 under oath.
 02      THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
 03      THE COURT:  Please have a seat.
 04           Mr. Shapiro, do you wish to withdraw your
 05 last question?
 06      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, Your Honor.
 07      THE COURT:  All right.   You may proceed.
 09              CROSS-EXAMINATION (continued)
 12      Q    Detective Vannatter, prior to the time you
 13 observed the cut on the index finger of Mr. Simpson, did
 14 you have any information as to the possible source of
 15 the cut?
 16      MS. CLARK:  Same objection.
 17      THE COURT:  Overruled.
 18           You can answer "yes" or "no."
 19      THE WITNESS:  I'm trying to think about that.
 20           I believe -- I don't really recall if I do or
 21 not at this point -- or whether I did or not at this
 22 point.
 24      Q    In any event, other then photographing it, you
 25 took no steps to ascertain anything else regarding the
 26 cut?
 27      A    Well, no, that's not totally true.
 28           I asked the nurse that took the blood sample
 01 to look at and cleanse and put a Band-Aid on the wound.
 02      Q    Other than that, did you have anyone else
 03 examine that wound for age, type of wound, the way the
 04 wound was inflicted, or any other indicia that would be
 05 important regarding that wound?
 06      A    No, sir.
 07      Q    Now, that wound is described as being on the
 08 index finger of the left hand?
 09      A    It's on the middle finger of the left hand on
 10 the large knuckle.   The main wound is on the large
 11 knuckle.
 12      Q    And did you compare the location of that
 13 wound to a glove that was found either at Bundy or
 14 Rockingham?
 15      A    No, sir, I didn't.
 16      Q    Has anybody under your direction looked at the
 17 glove to see whether or not there is a slice in the
 18 glove on the middle finger of the left hand that would
 19 coincide with the injury Mr. Simpson suffered when you
 20 observed it?
 21      A    Yes, I had the glove looked at.
 22      Q    And what conclusions have been drawn?
 23      A    I was informed that there was no -- no slice
 24 on the glove that would correspond with that injury.
 25      Q    Is it your opinion, based on your
 26 investigation, that the murderer was wearing gloves at
 27 the time?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    Do you have any opinion as to how the glove
 02 got to the location on Rockingham?
 03      A    Yes, I certainly do.
 04      Q    And what is that?
 05      A    My opinion of how the glove got to the
 06 location on Rockingham?
 07      Q    Yes.
 08      A    Well, I believe at the time of the murder, the
 09 person was wearing gloves.  And during the struggle with
 10 the man, one of the gloves was dropped at the crime
 11 scene and the other glove was then transported to
 12 Rockingham.
 13      Q    And how did it end up in the debris at
 14 Rockingham, in your opinion?
 15      A    Well, from looking at the scene and from
 16 knowing all the circumstances that surround that, I
 17 believe it was dropped back there by the person that
 18 transported it up to that location, doing whatever he
 19 was doing behind there that created the loud thumps on
 20 the wall.
 21      Q    And so, I would take it, you would have the
 22 criminalist search that area for blood drops.
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    And did you have the criminalist search that
 25 area for blood drops?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    Were any found?
 28      A    Not to my knowledge.
 01      Q    I would take it you would have the criminalist
 02 check on that area to see if there were any footprints
 03 with blood on them.
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    Did you have that done?
 06      A    I even looked at it myself.   There was a lot
 07 of debris and leaves lying on the walkway.
 08      Q    Were there any bloody footprints in that area?
 09      A    I didn't see any, sir, no.
 10      Q    I take it you would want to determine whether
 11 or not -- prior to investigator Fuhrman going back
 12 there -- whether or not anybody else walked in that
 13 area.
 14           Is that correct?
 15      A    I'm not sure I understand that.   Could --
 16      Q    Prior to investigator Fuhrman going to that
 17 area, did you make any determination as to whether
 18 anyone else had walked in that area?
 19      A    Prior to detective Fuhrman going there?
 20      Q    Yes.
 21      A    I was not aware of the location until
 22 detective Fuhrman told me about it.
 23      Q    Well, was there any attempt made when
 24 detective Fuhrman went back there to preserve that area
 25 so there would be no disturbance of any potential
 26 evidence that may be recovered?
 27      A    Yes.   I instructed the criminalist to protect
 28 it, protect the piece of evidence, and protect the area
 01 before I left there, yes.
 02      Q    Was there any determination made as to
 03 whether anybody had walked back there before detective
 04 Fuhrman?
 05      A    I don't know that that could be done with the
 06 type of debris that was on the walkway.
 07           I would have to say no, there was no
 08 determination made.
 09      Q    Was there any determination made as to whether
 10 or not that glove could have been thrown over a fence
 11 into the area?
 12      A    I don't know how that could be determined.   I
 13 don't know.
 14      Q    Was there any determination made as to whether
 15 or not that glove could have been dropped out of a
 16 bathroom window?
 17      MS. CLARK:  Objection.   How could -- counsel is
 18 asking for an impossibility.   How could such a thing
 19 ever be determined?
 20      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 21      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I be heard, Your Honor?
 22      THE COURT:  Not at this time.
 23      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 25      Q    Was there any determination made that would
 26 show any difference between the age of the linings of
 27 the two gloves?
 28      A    Not to my knowledge.   Not at this time, no.
 01      Q    You were present during the coroner's autopsy?
 02      A    Yes, sir.
 03      Q    And you've been in contact with the
 04 criminalist?
 05      A    Yes, sir.
 06      Q    And you were in charge of one of the crime
 07 scenes?
 08      A    Yes, sir.
 09      Q    Which one was that?
 10      A    The one on Rockingham.
 11      Q    Did you properly secure that crime scene to
 12 preserve evidence?
 13      A    I believe I did, yes.
 14      Q    Did you properly preserve the Ford Bronco to
 15 preserve evidence?
 16      A    I attempted to.   I believe I did, yes.
 17      Q    And how did you preserve the Ford Bronco for
 18 future evidence?
 19      A    I had officers at the scene.   I instructed
 20 them to protect and preserve the items as well as the
 21 Ford, and I instructed the officers to have the vehicle
 22 impounded to the print shed, Los Angeles Police
 23 Department print shed.
 24      Q    To your knowledge, were those directions
 25 followed?
 26      A    I would hope so.
 27      Q    Do you know if they were or not?
 28      A    No, because I was not at the scene there for a
 01 long period of time.
 02      Q    Do you have any reports or have you heard
 03 from any officer that coffee stains from members of the
 04 media were on the Bronco after you secured the crime
 05 scene?
 06      A    No, sir, I'm not aware of that.
 07      Q    Do you have any information that after you
 08 secured the crime scene, the Bronco was towed to
 09 Viterrelis' (sic) tow truck yard?
 10      A    That's a possibility.   I'm not aware of that
 11 either, sir.
 12      Q    That wouldn't be something you directed, would
 13 it?
 14      A    Well, that could be done because the tow
 15 service for West Los Angeles division, each area has a
 16 separate tow service.   It could have been taken there
 17 before it was brought to the print shed.   I didn't know
 18 that.
 19      Q    Well, you wouldn't do that as somebody who had
 20 secured evidence, to have some tow truck driver take it
 21 to a tow yard, would you?
 22      A    Well, that's normally what happens with
 23 vehicles that we impound.   They're normally impounded
 24 by the tow service that's in that area.
 25      Q    And is that a proper way of preserving
 26 evidence, in your opinion?
 27      A    It's about the only way that we can move a
 28 vehicle without driving it.
 01      Q    Is it a proper way of preserving evidence, to
 02 have an independent tow truck driver tow a car by
 03 himself to an impound yard?
 04      A    Well, they're not independent.   They're
 05 O.P.G. tow services, which are our official police
 06 garages that are licensed by the police commission, and
 07 that is normally done from each area that you're in.
 08 Each area would have its own O.P.G. service.
 09           Yes, I think that's a proper way of protecting
 10 it.
 11      Q    So as one of the lead homicide detectives in
 12 the Los Angeles Police Department, you feel secure that
 13 you can leave a scene, have an unknown tow truck driver
 14 come, hook up a piece --
 15      MS. CLARK:  Objection.   This is argumentative.
 16      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 17      MR. SHAPIRO:  I hadn't even finished.   It gets
 18 better.
 20      Q    You weren't aware that that happened, though?
 21      A    Aware that  --
 22      MS. CLARK:  Objection; vague.   What?
 24      Q    Okay.   Tell us what happened -- to your
 25 knowledge, what happened to the Ford Bronco from
 26 the time you left it at the crime scene on Rockingham.
 27      A    I don't know, sir.   I wasn't there.
 28      Q    Well, why don't you look at your book or your
 01 notes or your chronological record or talk to some of
 02 your fellow detectives and see if you can answer that
 03 question.
 04      MS. CLARK:  Well, objection, Your Honor.   This
 05 witness is the one who's being posed the question now.
 06           If counsel wants to ask the question of
 07 another witness who may have personal knowledge, he's
 08 free to do so.  But to direct this witness to run around
 09 and talk to people and look through books is an improper
 10 question.
 11      THE COURT:  Sustained as to the form of the
 12 question.
 13      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, I thought he said he was
 14 in charge of the investigation at Rockingham.
 15      THE COURT:  Do you have that kind of information
 16 available in your murder book?
 17      THE WITNESS:  Your Honor, there should be a tow
 18 record on the vehicle in the murder book, yes.   A
 19 vehicle report that would indicate that the vehicle was
 20 towed.
 22      Q    You were present, you told us, at the
 23 coroner's autopsy?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    You've talked to the criminalist?
 26      A    Talked to --
 27      Q    Have you talked to a criminalist in this case?
 28      A    The -- yes, the Los Angeles Police Department
 01 criminalist, yes.
 02      Q    Have you talked to more than one criminalist
 03 for the Los Angeles Police Department?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    How many are involved in this case?
 06      A    Well, I know of three personally.   Would you
 07 like me to name them?
 08      Q    Yes, please.
 09      A    Well, Mrs. Kestler who is the assistant lab
 10 director has assisted.   Colin Yamauchi --
 11      MS. CLARK:  Objection; Your Honor.   I think
 12 counsel's question was vague and is drawing an answer
 13 that indicates how vague it was.
 14           If counsel could be more specific in his
 15 question to detective Vannatter to indicate whether
 16 he means the criminalist that goes to the crime scene,
 17 does the field work, or the ones that are serologists
 18 that work in the lab dealing with the analysis of the
 19 physical evidence.   They are two different things.
 20      THE COURT:  The objection is overruled.
 21           Yamauchi, Kestler?
 22      THE WITNESS:  And Dennis Fung.
 24      Q    Are you aware that the Los Angeles Police
 25 Department went to a location known as Ross' cutlery and
 26 purchased a stiletto knife?
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    Was that stiletto knife, to your knowledge,
 01 shown or described to the coroner?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    Which one?   Was it shown?
 04      A    Shown to the coroner.
 05      Q    Was it shown or described to the criminalists?
 06      A    I don't believe so.
 07      Q    Do you have an opinion as to whether or not a
 08 stiletto knife substantially similar to the one you
 09 purchased was the murder weapon in this case?
 10      A    That's way outside my field of expertise.   I
 11 would have no answer to that.
 12      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, nothing further.
 13      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark, do you have any additional
 14 questions?
 15      MS. CLARK:  I do, Your Honor.
 17                   REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 20      Q    Detective Vannatter, can you think of a reason
 21 why you would want to show the knife purchased from Ross
 22 cutlery to a criminalist?
 23      A    No.
 24      Q    It's not a knife recovered from a crime scene,
 25 was it?
 26      A    No.
 27      Q    And with respect to the three people you named
 28 as criminalists in this case, of the three you named,
 01 how many were involved in the field work which -- by
 02 which, I mean, outside at crime scenes collecting
 03 evidence?
 04      A    Only one, Dennis Fung.
 05      Q    Did you see any bloody shoe prints on the
 06 driveway of 360 Rockingham?
 07      A    No.
 08      Q    As a matter of fact, by the -- you were at the
 09 original crime scene at 875 south Bundy; is that
 10 correct, sir?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    And you followed, I think you indicated
 13 yesterday, the blood trail that led from the body of the
 14 victim -- bodies of the victims, out to the alleyway
 15 behind the residence?
 16      A    That's correct, yes.
 17      Q    Were the bloody shoe prints to the right of
 18 those blood drops visible the entire path next to the
 19 blood drops that were found all the way to the back of
 20 the residence?
 21      A    You could see portions of the shoe prints,
 22 yes.
 23      Q    Were they equally dark from the beginning of
 24 the trail to the end?
 25      A    No.
 26      Q    By the time you got out to the alley, could
 27 you see shoe prints at all?
 28      A    No.
 01      Q    Are you familiar, sir, with a report or a
 02 paper with notes on it pertaining to a "459 at 874 south
 03 Bundy, suspects there now"?
 04      A    Yes, I have some knowledge of that.
 05      Q    Can you tell us -- enlighten us as to what
 06 that pertains to or how that came about, if you know?
 07      A    I can tell you what I was informed of.
 08      Q    Yes.
 09      A    I was informed by a uniformed officer -- and I
 10 can't recall his name -- that night at the scene, that
 11 that call was generated because the two original people
 12 that found the crime scene knocked on a person's door
 13 who wouldn't answer the door, and this person called the
 14 police and reported that they thought there were
 15 burglary suspects there.
 16      Q    And those two people -- were those the
 17 witnesses that you located for the preliminary hearing,
 18 sukru boztepe and Bettina Rasmussen?
 19      A    That's correct, yes.
 20      Q    Sir, do you have any knowledge of the nature
 21 of the West L.A. impound yard in terms of its conditions
 22 of security?
 23      A    Personal knowledge?
 24      Q    Yes.
 25      A    No.
 26      Q    Have you -- in general, are police impound
 27 yards secure with respect to having some kind of
 28 barricade or gate within which vehicles that have been
 01 impounded can be locked?
 02      A    Yes.   Definitely.
 03      Q    To your knowledge, is that the case with every
 04 police impound yard?
 05      A    Every one I've ever seen, yes.
 06      Q    And is it your information that that is the
 07 same condition for the West L.A. impound yard, that that
 08 is also an area that is secure with respect to cars that
 09 have been impounded and placed there?
 10      A    I'm sure that it is, yes.
 11      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 12      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 13      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 15                   RECROSS-EXAMINATION
 18      Q    Detective, were any reports generated that
 19 indicate a police officer said that this 459 report was
 20 a result of two people knocking on the door?
 21      A    Not to my knowledge, sir, no.
 22      Q    And that report was put out on a police radio
 23 at ten minutes after 12:00; isn't that correct?
 24      A    That's what I was told, yes.
 25      Q    And to your knowledge, what time were the
 26 bodies found?
 27      A    Ten minutes after 12:00.
 28      Q    That was the first finding of the bodies?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, nothing further.
 03      THE COURT:  Anything further, Ms. Clark?
 04      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further, thank you.
 05      THE COURT:  Thank you.
 06      THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 07      THE COURT:  You may step down.
 08           Next witness.
 09      MS. CLARK:  The people call Thano Peratis.
 10           Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honor.
 11           Could I recall Detective Lange very briefly.
 12      THE COURT:  All right.
 13      MS. CLARK:  One very small matter.
 15                        Tom Lange,
 16 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
 17 having been previously called and duly sworn, resumed
 18 the stand and testified further as follows:
 19      THE COURT:  You've previously been sworn.   You
 20 remain under oath.
 21           State your name for the record, please.
 22      THE WITNESS:  Tom Lange, l-a-n-g-E.
 24                    DIRECT EXAMINATION
 27      Q    Sir, you earlier indicated on People's 20, I
 28 believe, the photograph 'A' pertaining to the rear gate
 01 of the location of 875 south Bundy.
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    And were you a little disturbed by that at the
 04 time that you were testifying to it?
 05      A    Yes, I  --
 06      MR. SHAPIRO:  I'm going to object to the form of
 07 the question as leading and suggestive.
 08      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 09      MS. CLARK:  Okay.
 11      Q    Did you, after concluding your testimony this
 12 morning, approach me to say that you wanted to review
 13 your notes and -- did you approach me after you
 14 concluded your testimony this morning, sir?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    And for what purpose did you approach me?
 17      A    I was not happy with my identification of
 18 photograph 'A' as being the rear gate, and I believed it
 19 to be the front gate.
 20      Q    And did you go back and ascertain whether that
 21 was correct?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    What was correct?
 24      A    Yes, I did.
 25           Photograph 'A' is indeed of the front gate,
 26 not the rear gate.
 27      Q    Photograph 'A' is the front gate of 875 south
 28 Bundy?
 01      A    That's correct.
 02      Q    And you were mistaken when you earlier
 03 testified that it was the rear gate?
 04      A    That's correct.
 05      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 06      THE COURT:  Any questions?
 07      MR. SHAPIRO:  No, thank you.
 08      THE COURT:  Thank you.   You may step down.
 09      THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
 10      MS. CLARK:  People call Thano Peratis.
 11           On his way down, Your Honor.
 12      THE COURT:  Okay.
 13           Face the clerk, sir, and raise your right
 14 hand.
 15      THE CLERK:  You do solemnly swear the testimony you
 16 may give in the cause now pending before this court
 17 shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
 18 truth, so help you God?
 19      THE WITNESS:  I do.
 21                      THANO PERATIS,
 22 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
 23 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
 24 follows:
 25      THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
 26      THE COURT:  Right up here, sir.
 27      THE CLERK:  State and spell your name for the
 28 record.
 01      THE WITNESS:  tHANO PERATIS.   T-h-a-n-o,
 02 p-e-r-a-t-i-s.
 03      THE COURT:  You may inquire.
 04      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 06                    DIRECT EXAMINATION
 09      Q    Mr. Peratis, sir, can you tell us what you do
 10 for a living?
 11      A    I'm a registered nurse.
 12      Q    You're a registered nurse?
 13      A    Yes, Ma'am.
 14      Q    And are you qualified to draw blood from
 15 people?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    How long have you been a registered nurse?
 18      A    About 40 years.
 19      Q    And where are you employed as a registered
 20 nurse?
 21      A    Parker Center jail.
 22      Q    At Parker Center jail?
 23      A    (No response.)
 24      Q    Is that "yes"?
 25      A    Yes, Ma'am.
 26      Q    Were you so employed on the date of June
 27 the 13th, 1994?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    Have you received some training in the
 02 medically approved manner of taking blood from people in
 03 a way that does not contaminate the blood?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    And did you on June 13th, 1994, remove a blood
 06 sample from someone you recognize today HERE in court?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    Would you please point that person out.
 09      A    The gentleman over there.
 10      Q    What's he wearing right now?
 11      A    I didn't hear you.
 12      Q    What is he wearing right now, for the record?
 13      A    A black suit.
 14      THE COURT:  Are you referring to the defendant
 15 here, Mr. Simpson?
 16      THE WITNESS:  Oh, the defendant?
 17           Maybe I misunderstood you.
 19      Q    Yes.
 20           Who are you referring to that you took blood
 21 from in this courtroom?
 22      A    Oh, yes.   The defendant.
 23      Q    Thank you.
 24      THE COURT:  Thank you.
 25           Mr. Simpson.
 27      Q    And how did you do that?
 28      A    Oh, I put a tourniquet on his arm and cleaned
 01 the arm with zephiran and took a syringe with a needle
 02 and withdrew the blood, then put the blood into a test
 03 tube.
 04      Q    Was that a sterile test tube?
 05      A    Yes, Ma'am.
 06      Q    And how did you seal the test tube?
 07      A    The tube was sealed.   It had a rubber stopper
 08 on it.
 09      Q    It already had a rubber stopper on it?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    How did you get the blood into it?
 12      A    Stuck the needle into it and injected.
 13      Q    And then you just withdrew the needle?
 14      A    And withdrew the needle and syringe.
 15      Q    And did that leave the test tube then secure
 16 with the blood in it?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    And what did you do with that vial of blood?
 19      A    I handed the tube to Detective Vannatter.
 20      Q    Thank you, sir.
 21      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 22      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 23      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 25                    CROSS-EXAMINATION
 28      Q    Do you remember, sir, which arm you drew the
 01 blood from?
 02      A    The right arm.
 03      Q    Did you make any observations of any injuries
 04 of Mr. Simpson at the time  --
 05      A    I'm sorry.
 06      Q    Did you observe any injuries on Mr. Simpson at
 07 the time you withdrew the blood?
 08      A    Not at that time, no.
 09      Q    At some time did you?
 10      A    After Mr. Simpson -- after I put a bandage on
 11 Mr. Simpson's arm, I was asked -- I can't remember if it
 12 was by Mr. Simpson or one of the detectives -- if I
 13 would dress a wound on his finger.
 14      Q    And did you do that?
 15      A    Yes, sir.
 16      Q    Where was the wound?
 17      A    It was on his left -- on his left hand, on his
 18 left middle finger.
 19      Q    Did you examine the wound?
 20      A    Just a cursory examination.   I just looked at
 21 it and I cleaned it with -- what we routinely do, and
 22 then I put a dressing on it.
 23      Q    Did you determine the age of the wound?
 24      A    Not really.   It was a little difficult to
 25 determine the age.   It looked like, oh, between 12
 26 and 24 hours, but I couldn't -- I really couldn't say.
 27      Q    Did you ascertain the cause of the wound?
 28      A    No.   It -- it just looked like a little,
 01 small cut.
 02      Q    In the last five years, how many times have
 03 you conducted a similar type of examination for somebody
 04 from the Robbery Homicide Division?
 05      MS. CLARK:  Objection; irrelevant.
 06      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 08      Q    How much blood did you withdraw from
 09 Mr. Simpson?
 10      A    Approximately 8 C.C.'s.
 11      Q    When you say, "approximately," you did not
 12 measure the amount?
 13      A    Well, it could have been 7.9 or it could have
 14 been 8.1.   I just looked at the syringe and it looked
 15 at about 8 C.C.'s.   I withdrew the needle from his arm.
 16      Q    Nobody asked you to take a precise amount of
 17 blood.
 18      A    No.
 19      Q    And you did not record the amount of blood you
 20 took.
 21      A    No.   It's just routinely that's about the
 22 amount I usually draw.
 23      Q    And you do this on a routine basis everyday?
 24 Do you do this everyday in the jail, take blood?
 25      A    Whenever -- not for this sort of thing.   It's
 26 usually for alcohol, blood alcohol.
 27      Q    But you do take blood on a regular basis.
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    And you take the same amount of blood?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    Where did you get the tube from that you put
 04 the blood into?
 05      A    We have a drawer in the dispensary that has
 06 tubes in it, and I asked Detective Vannatter to go to
 07 that drawer, take the tube out with the purple top, and
 08 put Mr. Simpson's name on it and the date, and then hand
 09 it to me.
 10      Q    Are there any lot numbers on the tubes that
 11 you used?
 12      A    I believe there are.
 13      Q    Did you record the lot --
 14      A    No, we don't record that.
 15      Q    Did you record any information as to an
 16 inventory regarding the tube that was used to save his
 17 blood?
 18      A    No.   It's not a routine procedure that we do.
 19      Q    Did you put any preservative in the tube?
 20      A    The preservative was already in the tube.
 21      Q    Did you check that before you put
 22 Mr. Simpson's blood in it?
 23      A    Well, it's in there and it's understood that
 24 it's in there.   And this preservative is called
 25 E.D.T.A., and I don't know what those initials mean.
 26      Q    Did you put those preservatives in there?
 27      A    No, it's in there.
 28      Q    Did you see someone put it in there?
 01      A    No, they come that way.
 02      Q    Did you shake the blood after you put it into
 03 the tube?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    For how long did you shake it?
 06      A    Oh, about ten seconds.
 07      Q    How did you shake it?
 08      A    Just over and over like this.
 09      MS. CLARK:  For the record, the witness is making
 10 a gesture with his hand.   It was a fist with something
 11 in it and turning it palm down and palm up.
 12      THE COURT:  All right.
 14      Q    Have you ever seen that blood sample again?
 15      A    No.
 16      Q    Do you know what Detective Vannatter did with
 17 that blood sample?
 18      A    I don't know.   I -- I have an idea what is
 19 supposed to be done with it, but I don't know what he
 20 did with it.
 21      Q    Did you see what he did with it?
 22      A    Well, he put it in an envelope.
 23      Q    What kind of envelope did he put it in?
 24      A    A gray envelope that has an affidavit on it
 25 that I sign.
 26      Q    A gray envelope?
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    And it had an affidavit?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    What did the affidavit say?
 03      A    Oh, it refers to the fact that we -- I drew
 04 the blood on such and such a date and I handed it to
 05 detective Vannatter.
 01      Q    Did you get a copy of that affidavit?
 02      A    No.  That affidavit goes with the officer that
 03 takes the blood.
 04      Q    Did you indicate on that affidavit how much blood
 05 you drew?
 06      A    No.
 07      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I just have a moment, your Honor?
 08      THE COURT:  Yes.
 09      MR. SHAPIRO:  I have a document here that's "medical
 10 record for persons in custody."
 11      Q    Is this what you referred to as an affidavit?
 12      MS. CLARK:  Why don't you show it to the witness.
 13      THE COURT:  Yes.  Show it to the witness to verify
 14 that is the document referred to, please.
 15      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 16      THE WITNESS:  This is called a medical treatment
 17 record.
 19      Q    That is not the affidavit?
 20      A    No, sir.
 21      MR. SHAPIRO:  Let's see if we have the affidavit.
 22           This is not what he is referring to.  Do you have
 23 the affidavit?
 24      Q    Does the affidavit remain on the envelope?  Do
 25 you know?
 26      A    it is printed on the envelope.
 27           It is a gray envelope that all blood goes into.
 28 There is an affidavit on it we sign.
 01      Q    Do you recall what time you drew this blood?
 02      A    Yes, sir.  Blood drawn at 2:30.
 03           I think I have it on there as 1430.
 04      Q    Was there a physician on duty at the time?
 05      A    No, sir.
 06      Q    Are there any physicians at the jail?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      MR. SHAPIRO:  I have nothing further.  Thank you, your
 09 Honor.
 10      THE COURT:  Miss Clark, anything further?
 11      MS. CLARK:  One question, your Honor.
 12      THE COURT:  You always have one.
 13      MS. CLARK:  I know.  It might be a prosecutor's last
 14 word thing.
 16                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 19      Q    Sir, do you have knowledge of whether those
 20 vials you use to draw blood are prepackaged vials?
 21      A    Yes.  They are prepackaged.
 22      Q    Are they all the same size?
 23      A    Yes.  Those are about 10 CC vials.
 24           We have some smaller ones, but we don't use them.
 25      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 26      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 27      MR. SHAPIRO:  Nothing.  Thank you, your Honor.
 28      THE COURT:  Thank you, sir.  You may step down.
 01           Please do not discuss your testimony with
 02 anyone.
 03      MS. CLARK:  People call Dennis Fung.
 04      THE COURT:  Mr. Fung, you have previously been sworn
 05 and remain under oath.  Please have a seat on the witness
 06 stand, and state and spell your name.
 08                        dennis fung,
 09 recalled as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
 10 having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand, was
 11 examined and testified further as follows:
 12      THE WITNESS:  My name is Dennis Fung, d-e-n-n-i-s
 13 F-u-n-g.
 14      THE COURT:  You may inquire.
 15      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, your Honor.
 17                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 20      Q    Sir, what is your job?
 21      A    I am a criminalist employed by the Los Angeles
 22 police department.
 23      Q    What kind of criminalist are you?
 24      A    I am assigned to the firearms analysis unit right
 25 now, and I am -- my job title is criminalist 3; and that is
 26 one of the criminalists who is also a training officer for
 27 new criminalists in crime scene processing.
 28      Q    How long have you been a criminalist for the
 01 Los Angeles police department?
 02      A    I have been a criminalist for almost ten years.
 03      Q    Can you tell us, sir, what academic degrees you
 04 have achieved at this point?
 05      A    I have a bachelor of science degree in
 06 criminalistics from the California state university at long
 07 beach.
 08           I have a bachelor of arts degree in chemistry
 09 from the California state university at long beach.
 10           And those are my degrees there.
 11      Q    And what kind of -- if any -- on-the-job training
 12 have you had?
 13      A    I have received training from supervisors and
 14 other criminalists in the laboratory in crime scene
 15 processing.
 16           I have attended seminars put on by the American
 17 academy of forensic sciences and the California association
 18 of criminalists regarding crime scene processing and
 19 reconstruction.
 20           While in college I did an internship with the
 21 orange county sheriff's department, in which part of the
 22 internship was to go out with their forensic specialists
 23 and observe them processing crime scenes.
 24           And part of my course work in college involved
 25 processing of mock crime scenes.
 26      Q    Have you attended any seminars concerning crime
 27 scene processing, sir?
 28      A    Yes, I have.  In 1991, I attended an American
 01 academy of forensic sciences seminar and, in 1988, a
 02 seminar put on by the California association of
 03 criminalists.
 04      Q    Can you please explain for us what crime scene
 05 processing means?
 06      A    Crime scene processing involves the
 07 recognition and identification of potential evidence,
 08 also the documentation -- documenting the location of
 09 that evidence and maintaining a chain of custody for
 10 that evidence and the proper collection and packaging of
 11 evidence to preserve its integrity.
 12      Q    Are there any associations, professional
 13 associations, that you are a member of, sir?
 14      A    Yes.  I am a member of the California association
 15 of criminalists.  I have been a member since 1984.  And I
 16 am a provisional member of the association of firearm and
 17 toolmark examiners since 1992.
 18      Q    Are you involved in the training of any other
 19 criminalists more junior than yourself?
 20      A    Yes, I am.  As I have stated before, I am one of
 21 the training officers for the newer criminalists in crime
 22 scene processing.
 23      Q    And have you done that in any other location
 24 other than the one you are doing presently?
 25      A    I also have assisted in the training of west
 26 valley bureau detectives.  We put on a crime scene
 27 seminar for them back in -- I think it was 1989.
 28      Q    Now, is it part of your training to learn how to
 01 properly package and preserve evidence that you have
 02 collected from a crime scene?
 03      A    Yes, it is.
 04      Q    And to properly document that evidence?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    Is it part of your duty to maintain the chain
 07 of custody and the integrity of the evidence you
 08 collect?
 09      A    yes.
 10      Q    Is there any kind of analysis work, that is,
 11 blood analysis work, that you perform on the scene when you
 12 are out collecting evidence?
 13      A    Yes.  Out at the scene I will perform what is
 14 known as presumptive blood tests, and that is done so
 15 That -- well, there are a lot of stains that look like
 16 blood; and the presumptive test is a good way to eliminate
 17 the collection of stains that are not blood.
 18      Q    So you have performed that presumptive test for
 19 blood on how many occasions, sir?
 20      A    I approximate I have done about 10,000
 21 presumptive tests for blood.
 22      Q    How many crime scenes have you processed in your
 23 experience?
 24      A    I have processed approximately 500 crime scenes.
 25      Q    And have you ever qualified as a crime scene
 26 processing expert in a court of law?
 27      A    Yes, I have.
 28      Q    Approximately how many times?
 01      A    I have qualified approximately 20 times.
 02      Q    Now, were you called out to process a crime scene
 03 at approximately 5:30 a.m. on June 13, 1994?
 04      A    Yes, I was.
 05      Q    And to what location were you directed?
 06      A    The location was 360 north Rockingham.
 07      Q    You arrived there when?
 08      A    I arrived there at 7:10.
 09      Q    And when you arrived there, did you make contact
 10 with a detective?
 11      A    Yes, I did.
 12      Q    Who was that?
 13      A    I was contacted, or I was met there, by detective
 14 Vannatter.
 15      Q    And what occurred when you contacted him at that
 16 location?
 17      A    Detective Vannatter briefed me on the crime
 18 scene.  He showed me a bloodstain on a bronco on the driver
 19 door exterior handle and, also, blood drops along the
 20 driveway and a glove on the south side of the house.
 21      Q    Directing your attention, sir, to People's 8,
 22 photograph "a," first of all, can you tell us who is the
 23 gentleman shown in photograph "a"?
 24      A    That appears to be me.
 25      Q    you?
 26      A    me, yes.
 27      Q    Do you remember the item that you are pointing to
 28 in photograph "a"?
 01      A    Yes, I do.
 02      Q    What is that?
 03      A    That is a -- what I believed to be a bloodstain.
 04      Q    And what is being shown in photograph "b"?
 05      A    photograph "b" is a close-up of the suspected
 06 bloodstain with a scale in it.
 07      Q    And for what purpose do you have that ruler in
 08 there?
 09      A    The ruler is there to indicate the size so that
 10 we have something to judge how large that stain was.
 11      Q    What does that number 1 in there mean?
 12      A    The number 1 is a photo i.d. number used to
 13 document the evidence.
 14      Q    Do the photo i.d. numbers -- excuse me --
 15 correspond to item numbers in property reports that are
 16 prepared by yourself?
 17      A    Many times they do, but often -- there are times
 18 they do not.
 19      Q    When I say "correspond," I mean does every item
 20 number have a corresponding photo number.
 21      A    yes -- or it should.
 22      Q    OKAY.
 23           And sometimes the item number and the photo
 24 number are the same?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    But not always?
 27      A    That's correct.
 28      Q    In this particular case, with respect to the
 01 photo number you have indicated in "B," which is 1, for the
 02 stain on the door handle, do you know what the
 03 corresponding item number is?
 04      A    The corresponding item number is item no. 1.
 05      Q    What, if anything, did you do with respect to
 06 that spot that you appear to be pointing to in photographs
 07 "A" and "B"?
 08      A    The spot was tested with the presumptive test and
 09 came back positive.  Then it was measured and ultimately
 10 documented and collected.
 11      Q    Now, when you say it came back positive for
 12 blood, does that test tell you whether the blood is animal
 13 or human?
 14      A    No, it does not.
 15      Q    Just that it is blood?
 16      A    Just that it is indicative of blood.
 17      Q    Indicative.
 18           I think you indicated yesterday, sir, that it
 19 could be two other things, three other things.  What were
 20 they?
 21      A    The test is -- will give a false positive -- or
 22 is reported to give a false positive with vegetable
 23 peroxidases; and those are found in things like cabbage,
 24 apple.  There are a few other plantlike materials.  And
 25 there are also chemicals that are oxidizers known as -- an
 26 example of that is permanganate or dichromate.
 27      Q    Now, you have performed a presumptive test for
 28 blood about how many times, sir?
 01      A    Approximately 10,000 times.
 02      Q    In those 10,000 times, how many of those times
 03 have you seen a false positive occur, giving you the result
 04 that it was blood when it was, in fact, one of those other
 05 things you named that I can't even pronounce?
 06      A    To my knowledge, none of them.
 07      Q    Now, after you performed that test on the item
 08 no. 1 that you have indicated on the ford bronco, did you
 09 proceed to test some other blood drops?
 10      A    Yes, I did.
 11      Q    And where were those located, sir?
 12      A    There were other blood drops proceeding along the
 13 rear of the bronco, leading up to the driveway along --
 14 inside the driveway of the compound and leading towards the
 15 front entrance of the house.
 16      Q    Showing you People's 6, directing your attention
 17 specifically to photographs "D," "E" and "F," do you see
 18 all of those these little pieces of paper on the driveway?
 19      A    Yes, I do.
 20      Q    Can you tell us what they are?
 21      A    Those are markers indicating where there were red
 22 stains.
 23      Q    And do those markers indicate stains that you
 24 tested, sir?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    Now, could you -- first of all -- I meant to ask
 27 you before -- with respect to that presumptive test for
 28 blood, how is it performed?  What do you do?
 01      A    We -- we will wet a cotton swab with distilled
 02 water, apply the wet swab to the stain so that the
 03 suspected blood is absorbed onto the swab.  phenolphthalein
 04 is applied to the swab at that point, and I have observed a
 05 slight greenish cast appear at that point.
 06           The second step is to add hydrogen peroxide, and
 07 a very bright pink color shows up almost immediately at
 08 that point; And that would be a positive test.
 09      Q    When the bright pink color comes up, that means
 10 it is positive for blood -- I'm sorry -- positive for an
 11 indication of blood?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    And you performed a test in that manner with
 14 respect to the item you have indicated in photo no. 1 and
 15 item 1, the spot on the door handle of the ford bronco?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    How do you collect bloodstains from a crime
 18 scene?
 19      A    Generally, stains are transferred onto a swatch
 20 by first wetting the swatch with distilled water, applying
 21 it to the stain so the blood is absorbed onto the swatch;
 22 and at that point it is put into a plastic bag and then put
 23 into a coin envelope, where it is labeled with the
 24 corresponding photo i.d. number.
 25      Q    Now, is it also your job, sir, to package all of
 26 the evidence that you collect and label it with what is
 27 known as a D.R. number?
 28      A    Yes, it is.
 01      Q    And did you do so in this case?
 02      A    Yes, I did.
 03      Q    Now I am going to be directing your attention to
 04 items no. 1 through 8.
 05           Did you prepare a report documenting what item
 06 nos. 1 through 8 are in this case?
 07      A    Yes, I did.
 08      Q    Did you collect them, sir?
 09      A    I did; along with my assistant, criminalist
 10 Mazzola.
 11      Q    Is that another criminalist with the Los Angeles
 12 police department?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    Do you usually send two criminalists to a crime
 15 scene?
 16      A    Not always, no.
 17      Q    What was this criminalist doing with you on that
 18 particular day?
 19      A    She was there to learn how to process scenes.
 20      Q    You were showing her how it is done?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    Now, with respect to items 1 through 8, what are
 23 those items, sir, as described in your report?
 24      A    Item 1 is a cloth swatch used to transfer a red
 25 stain.
 26           Item 2 is a wood stick.
 27           Item 3 is a marlboro cigarette butt.
 28           Item 4 is another cloth swatch used to transfer a
 01 red stain.
 02           To make it easier, items 4 through 8 are cloth
 03 swatches used to transfer red stains.
 04           Is that all you asked for?
 05      Q    That's all I asked for.
 06      A    Okay.
 07      Q    OKAY.
 08           As to item 1, sir, that was the ford bronco you
 09 already testified to?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    With respect to items 4 through 8, those were
 12 bloodstains, also?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    Where were those recovered?
 15      A    Items 4 through 8?
 16      Q    Yes.
 17      A    Items 4 through 8 were collected within the
 18 driveway of 360 north Rockingham.  There was a trail
 19 starting from the gate and leading up to the front door of
 20 the house.
 21      Q    Starting from the gate, sir?
 22      A    The gate on, I believe, Rockingham.
 23      Q    Let me show you the photographs that you have
 24 seen, that were previously marked as People's 8.
 25           You see photograph "c" and photograph "d"?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    In photograph "c," do you see a marker with the
 28 number 4 on it?
 01      A    Yes, I do.
 02      Q    And that is on the asphalt right behind the ford
 03 bronco?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    And photograph "d" appears to be of the asphalt,
 06 also?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    A close-up of item no. 4?
 09      A    Possibly, yes.
 10      Q    Well, sir, do you see any other markers on
 11 asphalt?
 12      A    No.
 13      Q    So do you think that photograph "d" is a close-up
 14 of the photograph shown in "C"?
 15      A    It is a good possibility.
 16      Q    How many cloth swatches do you have of blood
 17 recovered from asphalt in your report, sir?
 18      A    Just one.
 19      Q    And is that one the item no. 4?
 20      A    Yes, it is.
 21      Q    And does "D" appear to be a close-up of a stain
 22 on asphalt, sir?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    May we deduce that is the close-up of item no. 4?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    And what did you determine -- what test did you
 27 perform on that item?
 28      A    Item no. 4?
 01      Q    Yes.
 02      A    I did a presumptive test for blood.
 03      Q    And the result was?
 04      A    Positive.
 05      Q    And item No. -- so, then, that was a blood
 06 Drop -- indicative of a blood drop behind the ford bronco?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    Item no. 4?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    And were there other blood drops leading up
 11 through the driveway, towards the residence, that you
 12 tested?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    And were those items 5, 6, 7 and 8?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    And you performed the same presumptive blood
 17 test?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    The result was?
 20      A    They all were indicative of the presence of
 21 blood.
 22      Q    How did you record these results?
 23      A    The results were recorded on a crime scene
 24 checklist.
 25      Q    That's a form you take with you to a crime scene?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    And were all of those items packaged by yourself,
 28 bearing the D.R. number of this case?
 01      A    Yes.
 02           I may have had some assistance from criminalist
 03 Mazzola with some of these items.
 04      Q    Did you assure yourself the packaging was
 05 properly done and all items bore the same D.R. number?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    And what is the D.R. number for this case?
 08      A    The D.R. number for this case is 94-08-17431.
 09      Q    Did you assure yourself all items packaged and
 10 collected by you bore that D.R. number?
 11      A    As far as I know, yes.
 12      Q    Did you collect any other item -- well, let me
 13 direct your attention to item No. 9 on your property
 14 report, sir.
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    What item is that, and where did you collect it
 17 from?
 18      A    Item No. 9 is a brown leather glove, a
 19 Right-handed one, with red stains.
 20      Q    Collected from where?
 21      A    That is collected from the south side of the
 22 house.
 23      Q    Showing you the photographs that have been
 24 previously marked as People's 9, i am going to ask you if
 25 you recognize the location shown in photographs "A," "B,"
 26 "C," "D."
 27      A    Yes.  I do.
 28      Q    What location is that?
 01      A    That is the south side of the house of 360 north
 02 Rockingham.
 03      Q    And showing you the photograph that has
 04 previously been marked as People's 21, do you recognize
 05 that?
 06      A    Yes, I do.
 07      Q    Does that appear to be the same glove in the same
 08 location as that depicted in photographs "A" through "D" --
 09 and "E"?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    OKAY.
 12           Now, "E," that photograph "E," do you recognize
 13 that one -- that photograph, sir?
 14      A    I haven't seen it -- well, it appears to be a
 15 depiction of the item No. 9.
 16      Q    Did you cause that photograph to be taken or have
 17 some part in setting that up?
 18      A    Yes.  Detective Vannatter asked me to have the
 19 glove photographed, and I did.  I had some lab personnel do
 20 that.
 21      Q    And it has "item No. 9" on it.
 22           What does that tell you?
 23      A    That indicates to me that that is the same glove
 24 that is depicted in People's 21.
 25      Q    And in the other photographs that you have
 26 previously identified, "a," "b," "c" and "d"?
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    Did you perform some test on item No. 9, that
 01 glove, at the location where you found it?
 02      A    Yes, I did.
 03      Q    And what kind of test was that?
 04      A    I performed the presumptive test for blood on it,
 05 and it came back with a positive result.
 06      Q    After you obtained the results on item no. 1 and
 07 items 4 through 8 and item No. 9, the glove, did you
 08 collect those items?
 09      A    Yes, I did.
 10      Q    And you indicated earlier you had them all
 11 packaged?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    And all were labeled with the D.R. number for
 14 this case?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    In what manner did you package the blood swatches
 17 that you obtained from the location of 360 Rockingham?
 18      A    Initially, I put them -- put the cloth swatches
 19 in plastic bags individually, then placed the plastic bags
 20 into a coin envelope and labeled the envelope with a photo
 21 i.d. number.
 22      Q    And with respect to the glove, item No. 9, how
 23 did you package that?
 24      A    The glove in item No. 9 was packaged in a brown
 25 paper bag.
 26      Q    Now, the photographs that I have shown you with
 27 respect to the ford bronco and the driveway -- and let me
 28 also show you People's 6 again.
 01           Now I am referring to People's 6 --
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    -- People's 9 --
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    -- And People's 8.
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    Do these photographs accurately depict the
 08 evidence and the location in which you found them, the
 09 condition in which you found them?
 10      A    Yes, they do.
 11      Q    At what time did you complete your work at the
 12 Rockingham avenue address?
 13      A    We completed the collection and documentation at
 14 approximately 10 o'clock.
 15      Q    And where did you go after that?
 16      A    At that point we proceeded on to -- I forgot the
 17 address -- we proceeded on to 875 south Bundy.
 18      Q    And what time did you arrive there?
 19      A    We arrived there at 10:15.
 20      Q    Did you meet with a detective at that location,
 21 sir?
 22      A    Yes, I did.
 23      Q    Who?
 24      A    I was met there by the officer in charge of the
 25 scene, detective Lange.
 26      Q    Did you talk to him when you got there?
 27      A    Yes, I did.
 28      Q    Did he tell you something?
 01      A    Yes.  He told me items of evidence he wanted me
 02 to collect, and he showed to me a blood trail and some shoe
 03 prints which appeared to be bloody shoe prints.
 04      Q    Did he ask you to do something with them?
 05      A    He asked that I photograph them and measure their
 06 locations.
 07      Q    And did you prepare a report of what you did with
 08 respect to the evidence you recovered at the scene at 875
 09 south Bundy?
 10      A    Yes.  I did prepare a property report.
 11      Q    Now, did you have any interaction with the bodies
 12 of any of the victims at the crime scene?
 13      A    I briefly saw them being removed, but no.
 14      Q    Is it part of your job to have any contact with
 15 the bodies of victims when you go to crime scenes to
 16 process them?
 17      A    Under certain circumstances I may, but the bodies
 18 are under the jurisdiction of the coroner's office.
 19      Q    Now, sir, did you recover -- did you recover a
 20 glove from the location of 875 south Bundy?
 21      A    Yes, I did.
 22      Q    Showing you the photograph that has been
 23 previously marked as People's 12, can you tell me if you
 24 recognize what is shown there?
 25      A    Yes.  In the photograph marked People's 12, the
 26 brown glove is depicted along with a photo i.d. number 102.
 27      Q    And that photo i.d. number 102 corresponds to
 28 what items, sir?
 01      A    Photo i.d. No. 102 corresponds to item No. 37.
 02      Q    Did you prepare a report concerning any analysis
 03 you may have performed on that item?
 04      A    I did no -- i did not do an analysis of the glove
 05 at the scene.
 06      Q    You did not?
 07      A    No.
 08      Q    Why not?
 09      A    It was not necessary at -- for the investigative
 10 process at that time.
 11      Q    Directing your attention, sir, to the photograph
 12 that has been previously marked People's 11, can you tell
 13 us what is depicted there?
 14      A    The photograph marked People's 11 depicts a dark
 15 blue watch cap, and next to it is a marker with the number
 16 103.
 17      Q    And that corresponds to what item number, sir?
 18      A    That corresponds to item No. 38.
 19      Q    And what test did you perform on that item?
 20      A    No test was done on the cap at that point in
 21 time.
 22      Q    Why not?
 23      A    It was not necessary for the investigative
 24 process at that time.
 25      Q    What do you mean by that?
 26      A    It is best to not manipulate the evidence and to
 27 leave it in as much an undisturbed condition as possible so
 28 that it can later be analyzed in a proper setting, back at
 01 the laboratory.
 02           By manipulating the evidence out at the scene,
 03 valuable trace evidence could be lost; so what we try to do
 04 is just leave it as undisturbed as possible by packaging it
 05 and bringing it back to the lab.
 06      Q    You try to do as little testing as you can of
 07 items in order to preserve them?
 08      A    Yes.
 09      Q    And only if it is absolutely necessary do you
 10 test them at the scene?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    In what manner was the glove, item No. 37,
 13 packaged, sir?
 14      A    The glove in item No. 37 was packaged in a brown
 15 paper bag.
 16      Q    I am showing you photograph People's 10 for
 17 identification.
 18           Can you tell us what is in that photograph?
 19      A    The photograph marked People's 10 depicts an
 20 envelope with red stains on it, and next to it is a card
 21 marked "104."
 22      Q    And that corresponds to item number?
 23      A    That corresponds to item No. 39.
 24      Q    And that is another item of evidence you
 25 collected?
 26      A    Yes, it is.
 27      Q    In what manner did you package that?
 28      A    That also was placed into a brown paper bag.
 01      Q    Showing you People's 14, if you can, sir, does
 02 that depict all three items -- the blue knit cap, the glove
 03 and the envelope -- as you found them?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    And the items you have just described in photo
 06 i.d. 102, 103, 104, as depicted in People's 10, 11, 12 and
 07 14, are those all shown in the manner in which you found
 08 them and the condition in which you found them at the crime
 09 scene?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    With respect to all of those items, sir, did you
 12 take them and package them with the -- bearing the D.R.
 13 number for this case?
 14      A    Yes, I did.
 15      Q    Showing you People's 15 for identification --
 16      a    Yes.  Photograph marked People's 15 depicts a
 17 large red stain, and next to it is a card marked "107."
 18      Q    -- Were you directed to preserve, photograph and
 19 test bloody shoe prints at that scene?
 20      A    Yes, I was.
 21      Q    Do you see one of them in that photograph,
 22 People's 15?
 23      A    Yes, I do.
 24      Q    And where is it, sir?  Can you point it out,
 25 please?
 26      A    It appears on the first step, and it is to the
 27 right -- top right corner of the photograph.
 28      Q    If you could show the court.
 01      THE COURT:  Are you referring to right here in this
 02 area?
 03      THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 05      Q    And what did you do to preserve those particular
 06 shoe prints, those bloody shoe prints?
 07      A    The shoe prints were photographed in double
 08 scale, and I did take a sample of -- a sample from two of
 09 the shoe prints.
 10      Q    a blood sample?
 11      A    It was --
 12      Q    What appeared to be.
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    YES.
 15           Now, were you also requested to photograph and
 16 test a trail of blood drops at that location?
 17      A    Yes, I was.
 18      Q    Showing you People's 19 and 20, sir, can you tell
 19 me if you recognize these photographs?
 20      A    Yes, I do.
 21      Q    And can you tell us, first of all, with respect
 22 to People's 19 --
 23      A    People's 19 depicts -- depicts four of the red
 24 stains along the north path along the house at 870 Bundy --
 25 875 Bundy.
 26      Q    Were there some bloody shoe prints at some point
 27 to the right of those blood drops?
 28      A    Yes, there were.
 01      Q    Now, the numbers that are shown in photographs
 02 "b," "c," "d," "e," "f" and "g," 112 through 115, are those
 03 photo i.d. numbers?
 04      A    Yes, they are.
 05      Q    Do they correspond to item numbers?
 06      A    Yes, they do.
 07      Q    What item numbers do they correspond to?
 08      A    They correspond to item nos. 47 through 50.
 09      Q    So 47 would be photo i.d. no. 112?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    And then 49 would be -- item 49 would be photo
 12 i.d. no. 114?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    And 114 is shown close up in photograph "e"?
 15      A    Yes, it is.
 16      Q    And is it shown in perspective in photograph "d"?
 17      A    Yes, it is.
 18      Q    And do you recall -- do you have an independent
 19 recollection of how that location looked -- the location
 20 shown in photograph "d"?
 21      A    Somewhat.
 22      Q    Were those stairs leading back to an alley, sir?
 23      A    Yes, they were.
 24      Q    Did you perform some kind of test on item 49
 25 while you were at 875 south Bundy?
 26      A    Yes, I did.
 27      Q    And what about item nos. 47, 48, 50 and 52?
 28      A    Yes.  I did presumptive tests on those stains.
 01      Q    Now, the item numbers I have just stated, item
 02 No. 47 is shown in photograph -- close up in photograph
 03 "b"?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    And item No. 48 is shown close up in photograph
 06 "c"?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    Item No. 49 shown in close-up in photograph "e"?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    Item No. 50 shown close-up in photograph "g"?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    Now, does photograph "f" show the blood drop in
 13 photograph "g" in perspective for its general location?
 14      A    Let me take a closer look.
 15      Q    YES.
 16      A    Yes, it does.
 17      Q    And the gate shown in photograph "f," is that the
 18 rear gate leading out to the alley?
 19      A    Yes, it is.
 20      Q    Showing you People's 20, sir, with respect to
 21 photograph "c," do you see photo i.d. no. 117?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    And that corresponds to what item number?
 24      A    That corresponds to item no. 52.
 25      Q    And is that close-up shown in perspective in
 26 photograph "b"?
 27      A    Yes, it is.
 28      Q    Where is the location that the item shown in
 01 photo i.d. no. 117 was found?
 02      A    That is on the driveway on the alley behind the
 03 house.
 04      Q    The driveway to the rear of the residence?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    Is that the wheel of a car you see at the left
 07 side of the photograph as we face it in photograph "b"?
 08      A    Yes.
 09      Q    And is that the alley running behind the house
 10 that we see at the upper left-hand corner of photograph "b"
 11 as we face it?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    And it was on that driveway that item no. 117 was
 14 found?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    I'm sorry; Photo i.d. no. 117 was found?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    And that is item no. 52?
 19      A    Yes, it is.
 20      Q    With respect to each of those photo i.d. and item
 21 numbers discussed, did you perform a test?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    What kind of test?
 24      A    The presumptive test for blood.
 25      Q    And what was the result with respect to all of
 26 those item numbers?
 27      A    They were positive, indicating the presence of
 28 blood.
 01      THE COURT:  All right, Miss Clark.  I am going to
 02 interrupt you at this point.  It is 3 o'clock, and we are
 03 going to take our 15-minute recess.
 04                (recess taken.)
 01         (Proceedings were had in chambers, which
 02             were transcribed in Volume 11-B,
 03            and ordered sealed by the court.)
 05                          -o0o-
 07     (Proceedings resumed in open court at 3:26 p.m.)
 09      THE COURT:  All right.
 10           We're once again on the record in the case of
 11 People versus Simpson.
 12           The defendant is present with counsel.
 13 The people are represented.
 14           Mr. Fung is on the witness stand.
 15           I remind you that you remain under oath.
 16           Ms. Clark.
 17      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 22      Q    We were talking about what appeared to be
 23 bloody shoe prints.
 24      A    Right.
 25      Q    On People's 19, I see on photograph 'D' on the
 26 steps there are letters 'A-G', '-H', '-I', '-J' through
 27 '-O', it appears, on the landing.
 28      A    Through 'AO', yes.
 01      Q    Each of those letters that I just said are
 02 proceeded by an 'A'; correct?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    And what do those letters on that photograph
 05 'D' document?
 06      A    Those document shoe prints which were on --
 07 which appeared on the steps.
 08      Q    And did you sample three of those shoe prints
 09 as representative samples of them in order to determine
 10 whether or not they were indicative of blood?
 11      A    I did various shoe prints along the trail.   I
 12 don't recall which ones I did, though, but as far as --
 13      Q    Let me ask you this, sir.
 14           Items 55, 56, and photo I.D. numbers 'D' and
 15 'F', letters 'D' and 'F' --
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    -- Were those among the bloody shoe prints
 18 that you sampled with the presumptive test for blood?
 19      A    Yes, they were.
 20      Q    And what result did you obtain?
 21      A    Those were positive for -- or indicative of
 22 the presence of blood.
 23      Q    Now, I don't see any letters marked in
 24 photograph 'F.'   I see a number marker at the top of
 25 the landing right by the gate, but I don't see any
 26 letters.
 27      A    That is correct.
 28      Q    Why is that?
 01      A    The shoe prints got lighter and lighter as
 02 they went to the west of the location, so as they got to
 03 that point, they were not visible anymore -- any longer.
 04      Q    Then with respect to each of the item numbers
 05 and letters that we have discussed today, did you place
 06 a D.R. number for this case on each of them?
 07      A    Yes, I did.
 08      Q    And have them stored at the lab?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    Did you receive a vial of whole blood bearing
 11 the name "O.J. Simpson," and this case D.R. number --
 12      A    Yes --
 13      Q    -- From Detective Vannatter on June 13th,
 14 1994?
 15      A    Yes, I did.
 16      Q    And what did you do with that, sir?
 17      A    I brought it back to the lab, assigned it an
 18 item number, and submitted it to the criminalists for
 19 serology.
 20      Q    I'm sorry, go ahead.
 21      A    And I submitted it to a criminalist in
 22 serology.
 23      Q    And what item number did you assign to that?
 24      A    That was assigned item number 17.
 25      Q    And did you receive vials of whole blood from
 26 Colin Yamauchi on June the 15th?
 27      A    Yes, I did.
 28      Q    And were those labeled as "Nicole Brown
 01 Simpson" and "Ronald Goldman"?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    Were they -- did you package them and place
 04 the item numbers on those as well?
 05      A    Yes, I did.
 06      Q    What item number did you give to the whole
 07 blood taken from Nicole Brown Simpson?
 08      A    That was item number 59.
 09      Q    And for Ronald Goldman?
 10      A    That was item number 60.
 11      Q    And, again, those were placed -- those were
 12 labeled with the D.R. number for this case as well?
 13      A    Yes, they were.
 14      Q    And what did you do with those items after you
 15 received them from Colin Yamauchi?
 16      A    Once I received them, I placed them in
 17 envelopes, labeled them, and booked them into S.I.D.
 18 property.
 19      MS. CLARK:  At this time, Your Honor, I would like
 20 to withdraw the exhibit that was previously marked as
 21 People's 4 in lieu of the smaller photographs that were
 22 used.
 23      THE COURT:  Any objection, Mr. Shapiro?
 24      MR. SHAPIRO:  No, Your Honor.
 25      THE COURT:  All right.
 27      Q    And lastly, sir, showing you People's 22, if I
 28 may, do you recognize the items shown in those
 01 photographs?
 02      A    Yes, I do.
 03      Q    And what are they?
 04      A    They appear to be the -- item number 9, the
 05 right glove, and item number 57 -- or item number 37 in
 06 this case --
 07      Q    A left glove?
 08      A    Yes.
 09      Q    And are they -- what position are they shown
 10 in in that photograph?
 11      A    They appear to be the palm up sides.
 12      Q    And item number 9, is that the item you
 13 recovered from 360 Rockingham on June the 13th?
 14      A    Yes, it is.
 15      Q    And item number 37, is that the item you
 16 collected from 875 south Bundy on June the 13th?
 17      A    Yes, it is.
 18      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 19      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen.
 21                    CROSS-EXAMINATION
 24      Q    Mr. Fung, how many criminalists are employed
 25 by the Los Angeles Police Department?
 26      A    I believe there are approximately 50.
 27      Q    But you were the only criminalist directly
 28 responsible for the collection of evidentiary items at
 01 both locations in this case, that is at Rockingham and
 02 at Bundy; is that correct?
 03      A    I was in charge of both scenes as far as the
 04 evidence was concerned, yes.
 05      Q    All right.
 06           Were there any other criminalists, other than
 07 the person you were training, accompanying you?
 08      A    For a short time, one of the assistant lab
 09 directors was at the scene.
 10      Q    And who was that?
 11      A    That was chief forensic chemist Stephen
 12 Johnson.
 13      Q    And which scene was Mr. Johnson at?
 14      A    Mr. Johnson was at first the Rockingham scene
 15 and then at the Bundy scene.
 16      Q    Did he collect any of the evidence at either
 17 of those scenes?
 18      A    No, he did not.
 19      Q    His purpose was just to observe?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    Are you able to tell whether a substance is
 22 blood just by looking at evidence?
 23      A    Not 100 percent.   I've had a lot of
 24 experience searching for blood and collecting blood, so
 25 I've got a good idea of when blood is present, but I'm
 26 not infallible.
 27      Q    Well, do you base that impression on the
 28 color?
 01      A    That is one of the factors, yes.
 02      Q    What are the other factors?
 03      A    The color is a factor, texture, the solubility
 04 of the blood, or stain at that point.   There are other
 05 things, but that's mainly what I go by.
 06      Q    Well, solubility isn't something you observe
 07 by sight, is it?
 08      A    No, it is not.
 09      Q    You ascertain solubility by the testing you
 10 perform?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    And do you use the same standard presumptive
 13 test whenever you do testing at the scene?
 14      A    There are other presumptive tests available to
 15 me and other criminalists, but that is the -- the
 16 phenolphthalein and hydrogen peroxide test is the one we
 17 usually use.
 18      Q    All right.   And is that the test you used for
 19 all of the testing you did at these two locations on
 20 June 13th?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    Could you describe how that test is done.
 23      A    Um, the -- first of all, a cotton swab is wet
 24 with distilled water.   It is applied to the suspected
 25 stain and some of the stain should transfer onto that
 26 cotton swab.
 27           If that occurs, then phenolphthalein is
 28 applied to the swab, and I have -- through my experience
 01 I have noticed a slight greenish tinge appear at that
 02 point.
 03           After that occurs, then I will put hydrogen
 04 peroxide on it, and at that point an immediate pink
 05 color could show up if it is positive.
 06      Q    Is that referred to, then, as a two-stage
 07 phenolphthalein test?
 08      A    Yes, it is.
 09      Q    All right.
 10           Now, you do not perform on a routine basis,
 11 then, the three-stage phenolphthalein test.
 12      A    I'm not -- I don't know what that is.   I
 13 don't know what the method is.
 14      Q    All right.
 15           Now, the test that you're describing, you
 16 mentioned, is not specific for blood.
 17           That is, other substances will also give a
 18 positive reaction; is that correct?
 19      A    Yes.
 20      Q    And these substances include a number of
 21 vegetable substances; isn't that correct?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    For example, onions?
 24      A    I'm not familiar with all the plant-like
 25 materials that have -- that will give a false positive,
 26 but I know that some do.
 27      Q    Well, is there any category of vegetable
 28 substances that you're aware of that give positive
 01 substances or positive reactions?
 02      A    I just read it in the literature and things
 03 that pop out in my mind right now are cabbage, apple, I
 04 believe apricot, but I'm not  --
 05      Q    How about garlic?
 06      A    I'm -- it may.   I'd have to look it up in the
 07 literature.
 08      Q    Beet root?
 09      A    I don't remember.
 10      Q    cucumber?
 11      A    It may be.
 12      Q    Horseradish?
 13      A    Possibly.
 14      Q    Lettuce?
 15      A    I'd have to refer to the literature.
 16      Q    Potato?
 17      A    Again, I'd have to refer to the literature.
 18      Q    And, of course, the presumptive test that you
 19 described does not tell us whether blood is human blood,
 20 does it?
 21      A    That is correct.
 22      Q    That is a determination that can only be done
 23 in the laboratory?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    So, of course, you didn't tell anyone that any
 26 of the testing you had done at either of these locations
 27 on June 13th established that any of these stains were
 28 human blood, did you?
 01      A    I did not state that.
 02      Q    That would mean then, of course, that we could
 03 not exclude the possibility of blood having come from a
 04 animal such as a dog, based on the tests that you did.
 05      A    That is possible.
 06      Q    Now, you've identified a blood stain on the
 07 photograph marked as exhibit 5-F, which was numbered
 08 with a tag that indicates number 8; is that correct?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    Could you point to where the blood stain is on
 11 that photograph?
 12      A    It's right here.
 13      Q    All right.
 14           So you're pointing to the little round Mark in
 15 the center of the picture?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    There appears to be another reddish Mark above
 18 that.
 19           Do you see that?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    Is that a blood stain?
 22      A    No.   That is a drop of water.
 23      Q    A drop of water?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    Now, looking at a blood stain, you, of course,
 26 don't know the age of a particular stain.   You don't
 27 know how long it has been there; is that correct?
 28      A    In general terms, you can tell if a stain is
 01 fresh or it's been subjected to weathering, so you can
 02 tell if it's an old stain or, you know, a fresh stain.
 03      Q    All right.
 04           What would you define as a fresh stain?
 05      A    A fresh stain would have a reddish appearance
 06 to it and an older stain would be brown or very dark.
 07      Q    And how quickly does a fresh stain become more
 08 brown in appearance?
 09      A    That depends on several factors.   The more it
 10 is subjected to sunlight or heat, the faster it will
 11 turn that darker color.
 12      Q    I see.
 13           So once the sun comes out and things start
 14 warming up, it becomes important for you to collect your
 15 samples as quickly as possible, doesn't it?
 16      A    That's correct.
 17      Q    You are unable to ascertain in fact whether a
 18 particular set of stains were all contemporaneous, that
 19 is were all dropped at the same time, aren't you?
 20      A    They appeared to be relatively fresh stains.
 21 They did not have the darker --
 22      Q    Well, I'm not speaking of any particular
 23 stains at this point.
 24           Are you able to tell just by looking at stains
 25 whether they were all placed or dropped at the same
 26 time?
 27      A    Generally, no.
 28      Q    Now, let's refer first to the investigation
 01 you did at the Rockingham address.
 02           I believe the location of item number 9, the
 03 glove that you recovered at Rockingham  --
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    -- that was particularly called to your
 06 attention by detective Vannatter?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    And what did he ask you to particularly look
 09 for in your process of recovering that glove?
 10      A    At one point he asked me to see if there was
 11 any blood on the glove.
 12      Q    Anything else?
 13      A    That's -- he asked me to measure it and
 14 preserve the evidence also.
 15      Q    Anything else?
 16      A    That's all I can remember.
 17      Q    All right.
 18           Now, to ascertain whether there was blood on
 19 the glove, you did a presumptive test.
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    You applied a cotton swatch to the glove?
 22      A    No, a cotton swab.
 23      Q    Cotton swab?
 24      A    Like a Q-tip type of thing.
 25      Q    All right.
 26           What portion of the glove did you apply that
 27 swab to?
 28      A    I believe the -- whatever area was facing
 01 upwards, I looked for a dark -- darker area than
 02 appeared on the rest of the glove and applied the wet
 03 swab to that portion and performed the rest of the test.
 04      Q    Do you recall where that portion was?
 05      A    No, I don't.
 06      Q    Was the glove lying palm up or back up?
 07      A    I'd have to refer to the photographs.
 08      Q    All right.   Let's do that.
 09      MR. UELMEN:  I'm putting exhibit 4 up.
 10      THE COURT:  I'm sorry, is that 4?   My note was
 11 that 4 had been withdrawn.
 12      MR. HODGMAN:  I believe that's 9, Your Honor.
 13      THE COURT:  This is number 9.
 14      MR. UELMEN:  Number 9?
 15           I'm sorry, it had two numbers on it.   The
 16 grand jury exhibit is 4, but it's exhibit 9 here.
 17      THE COURT:  Okay.
 19      Q    Have you located where you applied the swab to
 20 the glove?
 21      A    I don't recall where exactly I applied the
 22 swab to the glove.
 23      Q    All right.
 24           Does the photo in exhibit 9-D depict the
 25 position of the glove as you found it?
 26      A    To the best of my recollection, yes.
 27      Q    Now, you mentioned that one reason you don't
 28 routinely do presumptive tests on all of the evidence
 01 that you encounter is because the manipulation of the
 02 evidence may lose valuable trace evidence, I believe you
 03 said.
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    All right.   But you did manipulate the glove
 06 in order to do a presumptive test; is that correct?
 07      A    Yes, I did.
 08      Q    Now, were you -- or did you attempt to locate
 09 any stains or footprints in the location leading up to
 10 that glove?
 11      A    I looked for them.   However, I did not find
 12 any.
 13      Q    Did you examine carefully for any disturbance
 14 in the pattern of debris leading up to the glove?
 15      A    I did not notice any discernible pattern of --
 16 that I could differentiate from randomness.
 17      Q    Well, would that assist you in ascertaining
 18 whether someone had dropped the glove there or whether
 19 they had thrown the glove there from some other
 20 location?
 21      A    I don't really understand the question.
 22      Q    Would any disturbance in the debris pattern
 23 assist you in determining whether the glove had been
 24 dropped there or thrown there?
 25      A    In certain circumstances it might.
 26      Q    So it would become important, then, to
 27 preserve the pattern of the debris leading up to the
 28 glove, wouldn't it?
 01      MS. CLARK:  Well, objection.   That's an incomplete
 02 hypothetical.   It assumes that no other disturbances
 03 occurred between the occurrence of dropping the glove
 04 and this witness arriving at the scene.
 05      THE COURT:  Overruled.
 06           You can answer that if you're able to.
 07      THE WITNESS:  Could you repeat the question?
 09      Q    Wouldn't it be important to preserve whatever
 10 patterns there might be in the debris leading up to the
 11 glove in order to ascertain whether it had been dropped
 12 or tossed?
 13      A    If that was a major factor in the case, it
 14 might be, yes.
 15      Q    And, of course, the more people traipsing back
 16 to look at the glove, the more disturbance there would
 17 be in the debris pattern, wouldn't there?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      MS. CLARK:  Well, objection.   That assumes that
 20 there is such a thing as a "debris pattern."   Assumes a
 21 fact not in evidence.
 22      THE COURT:  Overruled.
 24      Q    Now, the pattern that you referred to in the
 25 pavement proceeded in the direction of the entrance to
 26 the house?
 27      A    The pattern in the pavement?
 28      Q    Yes.
 01      THE COURT:  Are you referring to the blood droplets
 02 on the driveway?
 04      Q    The drops that you observed in the driveway at
 05 Rockingham.
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    They did not proceed to the glove?
 08      A    No.
 09      Q    Now, you mentioned that you remained at the
 10 Rockingham premises until 10:00 a.m.?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    So you were there approximately three hours?
 01      A    Just about, yes.
 02      Q    And you didn't arrive, then, at the 875 south
 03 Bundy premises until 10:15 in the morning?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    And that was the first time anyone began
 06 collecting any evidence or swatches of blood at the
 07 premises at 875 south Bundy?
 08      A    To my knowledge, yes.
 09      Q    Now, your property report simply indicates the
 10 time that you arrived at the premises; is that correct?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    It does not indicate the time you recovered any
 13 particular item at the premises?
 14      A    That's correct.
 15      Q    So your property report for the morning of
 16 June 13 at the Rockingham location just indicated 7:10
 17 in the morning?
 18      A    That's when I arrived at the scene.  Yes.
 19      Q    How long after you arrived did you take swatches
 20 of the drops that appeared to be blood in the driveway?
 21      A    That occurred around 9 to 9:30 in the morning.
 22      Q    Did the collection of this evidence follow the
 23 chronology of the numbers that you assigned to each item?
 24      A    Could you repeat the question?
 25      Q    Did your collection of these items correspond
 26 to the chronology of the numbers you assigned?
 27           For example, you would have collected item
 28 no. 1 first and item No. 7 after item no. 6?
 01      A    I believe so.
 02      Q    So you assign these numbers chronologically, as
 03 you collect each item?
 04      A    No.  I will assign numbers to the items I am
 05 going to collect, measure them off and then, after
 06 measuring and documenting with photography is done, I will
 07 go ahead and start collecting.
 08      Q    So the last step is to go ahead and actually
 09 collect the samples after you have assigned all the numbers
 10 you intend to assign?
 11      A    Generally speaking, yes.  That is not a hard and
 12 fast rule, though.
 13      Q    Now, you said when you arrived or after you
 14 arrived at the Bundy premises, you saw the bodies being
 15 removed; is that correct?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    What time were the bodies removed?
 18      A    Approximately 10:30, around there.
 19      Q    15 minutes after you arrived?
 20      A    That's a rough approximation.
 21      Q    Now, when you collect the samples on the damp
 22 swatches --
 23      a    Yes?
 24      Q    -- of the drops you suspect may be blood --
 25      a    Yes?
 26      Q    -- do you take more than one swatch of each?
 27      a    If the sample is large enough, I will try to
 28 collect a large sample, which may be more than one or two,
 01 or just maybe a thread if it is not very much.  It depends
 02 on the size of the sample.
 03      Q    So if you have a larger sample, will you get two
 04 or three swatches of the same sample?
 05      A    Usually, yes.
 06      Q    Did you measure the distance between the drops
 07 that you located on the pavement leading to the rear of the
 08 premises?
 09      A    I measured the drops that I collected.  Yes, I
 10 did.
 11      Q    all right.
 12           Referring, then, to what has been numbered
 13 112, 113, 114 and 115 on exhibit No. 19, could you tell
 14 us the distance between each of those stains?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    Could you tell us how far apart they were?
 17      A    I can give you the measurements that I have
 18 taken.  I am not really great at math; so I don't want to
 19 do a subtraction right now.
 20      Q    OKAY.
 21      A    Photo i.d. 112, which is item 47, was collected
 22 approximately 44 feet west of the west curb of Bundy and 10
 23 inches north of the north wall of the condo or apartment or
 24 whatever it is.
 25      Q    OKAY.
 26      A    Photo i.d. 113, which is item No. 48, was
 27 recovered 56 feet west of the west curb of Bundy and 3
 28 feet north of the north -- let's see -- north of the north
 01 curb, which probably means wall, or the side of the house.
 02      Q    You have "curb" in your notes?
 03      A    Yes, I do.
 04      Q    all right.
 05      A    Photo i.d. 114 is -- was located 86 feet west
 06 of the west curb of Bundy and 1 foot 10 inches north of
 07 the north wall; and item -- photo i.d. 115, which is item
 08 No. 50, was recovered 38 feet 8 inches east of the west
 09 edge of the rear driveway and 1 foot 10 inches north of
 10 the north wall of the building.
 11      Q    all right.
 12           Now, you are using two different reference
 13 points.  No. 112, 113 and 114 were measured from their
 14 distance from Bundy?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    And 115 was measured from its distance from
 17 the driveway?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    How far apart were 114 and 115?
 20      A    We have gone back with a forensic draftsman, and
 21 that is all measured off now; but I don't have that in my
 22 notes.
 23      Q    Now, in the photos that appear in the exhibit,
 24 there appears to be a variation in the color of the spots,
 25 or drops, that are numbered on that exhibit?
 26      A    There is a slight variation, yes.
 27      Q    Where do you see the variation?
 28      A    In photograph "e," with the marker 114, it
 01 appears a slightly different color from 115 in the
 02 photograph.
 03      Q    Would that suggest to you the possibility of a
 04 different age of that particular mark?
 05      A    I would tend to put that more on the effect of
 06 photography than I would an actual difference in color.
 07      Q    Isn't the purpose of the photography to uniformly
 08 record the appearance of the evidence that you encounter at
 09 the scene?
 10      A    Theoretically, yes; but in practice color is
 11 variable from photograph to photograph.
 12      Q    Well, aren't the photographers instructed to
 13 photograph each item of evidence from the same angle?
 14      A    Generally, yes.
 15      Q    And use the same lighting conditions for each
 16 item of evidence?
 17      A    Generally, yes.
 18      Q    Now, with respect to the vial of blood labeled
 19 "O.J. simpson" that you submitted to the criminologist in
 20 serology --
 21      A    The criminalist.
 22      Q    Criminalist.  I'm sorry.
 23           -- Who was the criminalist to whom you submitted
 24 that?
 25      A    I believe I gave it to Colin Yamauchi.
 26      Q    Now, is this the same Colin Yamauchi who gave
 27 you the blood samples from the victims?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    Why would you be giving him samples when he is
 02 giving you samples of others?
 03      A    On June 13 I received a vial of blood with O.J.
 04 Simpson's name on it from detective Vannatter.
 05      Q    Uh-huh.
 06      A    And on June 15, two days later, detective
 07 Vannatter gave Colin the two samples of blood from the
 08 coroner's office; and, in turn, Colin then gave me the
 09 samples to book.
 10      Q    OKAY.
 11           But Colin did not give you the sample of
 12 Mr. Simpson's blood back; is that correct?
 13      A    He gave me back the sample from -- of
 14 Mr. Simpson's blood on the same day that I gave it to him,
 15 which was on June 14, 1994.
 16      Q    What was your purpose in giving it to him, then,
 17 if he immediately gave it back to --
 18      a    He took an aliguot from that sample and then gave
 19 me the remaining portion of the vial.
 20      Q    He took a what?
 21      A    A small sample, aliquot.
 22      Q    What is the word you referred to?
 23      A    aliquot.
 24      Q    You want to spell that for us?
 25      A    A-l-i-q-u-a-t (sic), I believe, is the spelling.
 26      Q    And did you record then the amount of blood in
 27 the vial when you gave it to Mr. Yamauchi and the amount
 28 when you got it back?
 01      A    No, I did not.
 02      Q    So you don't know how much you took?
 03      A    No, I don't.
 04      Q    And you don't know how much was in the vial
 05 whenever you turned it over to someone else?
 06      A    It appeared to be pretty much full.
 07      Q    And who did you turn it over to?
 08      A    At what point?
 09      Q    After you got it from Mr. Yamauchi.
 10      A    Once I had labeled it and assigned it an item
 11 number, I then booked it into our property -- property
 12 division, our S.I.D. property.
 13      Q    What does S.I.D. stand for?
 14      A    Scientific investigation division.
 15      Q    And is that sample then kept under refrigeration?
 16      A    Yes, it is.
 17      Q    Were all of the samples you took kept under
 18 refrigeration?
 19      A    I booked them to be refrigerated, yes.
 20      Q    All the swatches you collected?
 21      A    Swatches I booked to be frozen.
 22      Q    Thank you.
 23      mr.uelmen:  If I could have just a moment.
 24      THE COURT:  Yes.
 25 BY mr. uelmen:
 26      Q    Now, do you maintain some sort of inventory of
 27 all of the items you collected?
 28      A    Yes, and I prepare a property report for that
 01 purpose.
 02      Q    And is the property report, then, the last
 03 control you have over the exhibits?
 04      A    Once I book them into property, then my portion
 05 of the chain of custody ends there until I may be asked to
 06 go back and analyze something.  Then it starts up again.
 07      Q    And have you been asked to go back and analyze
 08 some of the items you collected?
 09      A    No; No real scientific analysis; just to -- I have
 10 been asked to go back and describe some of the evidence a
 11 little bit better for the detectives, and that's about it.
 12      Q    Have you encountered any situations where any
 13 of the evidence you recovered was missing?
 14      A    I don't recall anything at this point in time,
 15 no.
 16      mr. uelmen:  Thank you.
 17           Nothing further.
 18      THE COURT:  Miss Clark, anything further?
 19      Ms. clark:  Briefly.
 21                  REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 23 By ms. clark:
 24      Q    Sir, the bloodstains at the Rockingham address,
 25 did they all appear to you to be fairly fresh?
 26      A    They appeared to be, yes.
 27      Q    Similar in color?
 28      A    Roughly, yes.
 01      Q    And the stains at the Bundy address, did they all
 02 appear to be fairly fresh?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    And similar in color?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      ms. clark:  I have nothing further.
 07      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen, anything else?
 08      Mr. uelmen:  Nothing else.
 09      THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Fung.  You are free to
 10 go.
 11           Do not discuss your testimony with any other
 12 witness.
 13      ms. clark:  People call greg Matheson.
 14      THE COURT:  Face the clerk, please, and raise your
 15 right hand.
 16      THE CLERK:  You do solemnly swear that the testimony
 17 you are about to give in the cause now pending before this
 18 court shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
 19 the truth, so help you god?
 20      THE WITNESS:  I do.
 22                      Greg Matheson,
 23 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People, was
 24 examined and testified as follows:
 25      THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
 26           State and spell your name, for the record.
 27      THE WITNESS:  Gregory Matheson, g-r-e-g-o-r-y
 28 m-a-t-h-e-s-o-n.
 01      THE COURT:  Miss Clark.
 02      ms. clark:  thank you, your Honor.
 04                    DIRECT EXAMINATION
 06 BY ms. clark:
 07      Q    Mr. Matheson, tell us what you do for a living.
 08      A    I am a supervising criminalist employed by the
 09 city of Los Angeles, working for the Los Angeles police
 10 department crime lab.
 11      Q    Have you received some education as part of your
 12 background to achieve that employment?
 13      A    Yes.  I did.
 14      Q    What is it?
 15      A    I have a bachelor of science degree in
 16 criminalistics from California state university at long
 17 beach.
 18      Q    Can you define criminalistics for us?
 19      A    Criminalistics, that is a science that is
 20 involved with the collection, preservation and analysis of
 21 physical evidence.  We employ a lot of different natural
 22 sciences towards that end.
 23      Q    And as a student, sir, did you begin to learn the
 24 field of criminalistics by working in some fashion?
 25      A    Yes, I did.
 26      Q    What was that?
 27      A    Well, initially, prior to working for the
 28 Los Angeles police department as a criminalist, I was a
 01 student worker and community service officer for the Culver
 02 city police department.  In that capacity I learned how a
 03 department operates.  I had a chance to learn something
 04 about field investigations, fingerprinting, crime scene
 05 photography.
 06      Q    Now, did you indicate how long you have been a
 07 criminalist with the Los Angeles police department?
 08      A    No, not yet.
 09           I have been a criminalist with the city of
 10 Los Angeles for just over 16 years.
 11      Q    And of those 16 years, how much of them were
 12 spent doing latent prints or serology or other --
 13      a    Well, as a criminalist I never have done any sort
 14 of latent print work.
 15           I started initially -- about my first 18 months,
 16 I was assigned to the toxicology unit, to the crime lab.  I
 17 was then moved to an area called special testing.  I was in
 18 that for a little over 18 months.  Then I was assigned to
 19 the serology unit.
 20           I have been in the serology unit in one capacity
 21 or another for the last 13 years.
 22      Q    What is the serology unit?  What does it do?
 23      A    The serology portion, or unit, of the
 24 criminalistics laboratory is involved in the identification
 25 and analysis of body fluids.  Our interest is, first,
 26 identifying whether or not a particular fluid or stain is a
 27 fluid of interest and then, once that is identified, to be
 28 able to determine the genetic markers, or the makeup, of
 01 that stain or fluid in an attempt to compare it back to a
 02 possible source of origin.
 03      Q    Now, is your current position one of a
 04 supervisory nature, or is it one of the rank and file, if
 05 you will?
 06      A    Well, currently and for the last five years I
 07 have been supervisor of the serology unit.
 08      Q    Have you ever supervised any unit other than the
 09 serology unit?
 10      A    Yes.  The first four years as supervisor was
 11 strictly of the serology unit; but starting last -- I
 12 believe it was last July or August, I also was placed over
 13 direct supervisory control of our trace comparative unit,
 14 our field unit, the forensic photographer and our chemical
 15 processing unit.
 16      Q    What is a field unit?
 17      A    We have a couple of criminalists assigned to what
 18 we call the field unit.  These are criminalists that are
 19 responsible for handling responses to daytime field calls.
 20 They are also at that time either working in another unit
 21 or also training in another discipline.
 22      Q    Now, have you taken any courses with respect to
 23 your position with LAPD as a criminalist?
 24      A    Specifically, as far as an academic course, I
 25 attended a two-week class that was offered by the f.b.i. in
 26 their academy in quantico, Virginia; and it was entitled
 27 "biochemical analysis of bloodstains."  It was offered at
 28 the academy but through the university of Virginia.
 01      Q    And was there any training that you received
 02 while on the job when you began with LAPD from other
 03 criminalists?
 04      A    Yes; Throughout my career.  You receive
 05 on-the-job training from other criminalists upon entering a
 06 new unit.  Even though you have the basic scientific
 07 background, understand the concepts and things that are
 08 being presented, you always have to learn from the
 09 criminalists who have been in the unit for a while the
 10 exact procedures and techniques used by that particular
 11 unit.
 12           So yes.  The first several years was involved in
 13 picking up these techniques from the criminalists that had
 14 been performing them for quite a while.
 15      Q    Now, have you received any kind of certifications
 16 or become a member of any professional organizations?
 17      A    Yes.  I am a member of two professional
 18 organizations and hold two voluntary professional
 19 certificates.
 20      Q    The professional certificates are what?
 21      A    One of them was initially offered by the
 22 California association of criminalists, and it was a
 23 certificate of professional competency in criminalistics,
 24 or a general background certificate on the whole field of
 25 criminalistics.
 26           Approximately -- I believe it was about a year
 27 and a half ago or so, the program was turned over to the
 28 American board of criminalistics, which rather than being a
 01 state-based body is a national body, organization, whose
 02 sole purpose is the certification of criminalists
 03 throughout the country.
 04      Q    And you have some position with respect to the
 05 American board of criminalists now?
 06      A    I received what is called diplomate status in
 07 that organization -- or a general knowledge in
 08 criminalistics.
 09      Q    And the California association of criminalists,
 10 is that a professional organization?
 11      A    Yes, it is.  It is what is called a regional
 12 association of forensic scientists that, even though it is
 13 based in California and the majority of members are in
 14 California, has quite a few in other states and a few other
 15 countries.
 16      Q    And how long have you been a member?
 17      A    I believe I joined in 1979.
 18      Q    Do they have certain standards for certification
 19 in that organization?
 20      A    The standards to become certified -- yes.  You
 21 need to be in the field for two years plus pass a written
 22 examination.
 23      Q    Did you have something to do with developing
 24 those standards for certification, sir?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    What did you have to do with them?
 27      A    In January of 1987, I was placed by the
 28 association as the chair of what was called the
 01 certification committee; and it was that committee that
 02 established the program that eventually became the CAC's
 03 certification program.
 04           As committee chair I was involved in establishing
 05 the minimum standards, figuring out the processes that
 06 would be used in handling the whole certification sequence
 07 along with working with the criminalists, also, that were
 08 assigned in making up the general test.
 09      Q    Have you held any executive-type positions in any
 10 of the other organizations such as the American board of
 11 criminalists?
 12      A    Yes.  The American board of criminalistics, when
 13 it was formed, because of my association with the
 14 California association of criminalists, I was asked to be
 15 part of the original formation of the ABC, or the American
 16 board of criminalistics; and I held the position of
 17 vice-president of that organization.
 18      Q    Are you familiar with an organization named the
 19 California association of crime lab directors?
 20      A    Yes, I am.
 21      Q    Are you a member of that?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    For about how long?
 24      A    It has been not quite five years, I believe.
 25      Q    And with respect to the California association of
 26 criminalists, have you held any executive positions in that
 27 organization?
 28      A    Yes, I have.
 01      Q    What have you held?
 02      A    Well, up until may of 1994, the previous four
 03 years I held board of director positions.  The first year I
 04 was called a regional director south, or the regional
 05 director for the southern part of the state.  Then I was
 06 elected to president-elect position, served one year as
 07 that, one year as president and last year was board
 08 position of immediate past president.  As of may I was off
 09 the board of directors.
 10      Q    Do you do any teaching, sir?
 11      A    Occasionally, yes.
 12      Q    And what kind of teaching do you do?
 13      A    Mainly it is within the department.  I teach
 14 serology and basic field techniques at the homicide
 15 detectives school, the sexual assault detectives school
 16 and, more recently, the detective supervisors school.
 17           I was also able to be involved in, I believe it
 18 was, in 1987, four training sessions that were offered
 19 throughout the state by the office of criminal justice
 20 planning on the new protocol that was established for
 21 collecting sexual assault evidence.
 22      Q    At the current time you are a supervising
 23 criminalist?
 24      A    Yes, that's correct.
 25      Q    What are your duties, sir?
 26      A    Well, I have direct supervisory control of, I
 27 believe it is, 19 employees at this Time and, in that role,
 28 have basic administrative control or responsibility over
 01 the units that I mentioned earlier, assign days off, handle
 02 sick reports, all sorts of administrative things that go
 03 along with that.
 04           In addition to those duties, I am still involved
 05 in some of the day-to-day operations of the technical
 06 aspects of the serology unit, which is more my specialty
 07 than the other ones.
 08           A regular duty of that position is I read all the
 09 reports that are created by the criminalists within that
 10 unit, do both a technical review of the report and check
 11 for just misspellings, WORDING and that sort of thing.
 12 Towards that end, I examine the report, pull all the notes
 13 associated with the report, make sure that the data that is
 14 presented in the report fits the raw data that was obtained
 15 during the course of the analysis and then make sure that
 16 the data that is included in the report is consistent with
 17 the conclusions, that the conclusions could be supported by
 18 that data.
 19      Q    You are still involved in the technical aspects
 20 of things, the actual work done in the serology unit?
 21      A    That's correct.
 22           Not to the extent I used to be; but towards that
 23 end, I am also involved with confirming -- occasionally
 24 confirming electrophoresis results, which is one of the
 25 techniques used in the laboratory.
 26      Q    That is one of your functions as a supervisor --
 27 to occasionally be called on to confirm results?
 28      A    That's correct.
 01      Q    And in that regard, sir, in serology, is it one
 02 of the functions to detect genetic markers such as abo and
 03 proteins and enzymes?
 04      A    Yes, it is.
 05      Q    Can you tell us what is meant by that -- abo,
 06 enzymes, proteins?
 07      A    Well, within -- probably, for simplicity, we will
 08 talk about bloodstains.  There are other body fluids the
 09 unit deals with, but in somebody's blood there are what are
 10 called genetic markers.  These are factors that exist in
 11 the blood that are acquired genetically from your parents
 12 and exist in certain discreet types.
 13           Probably the best example that can be given of
 14 that is the abo blood-type system.  That is one of the
 15 genetic markers we look at.  You are either type a, b or
 16 type o; And that is determined by the types your parents
 17 have.
 18           In addition to the abo system, there are also
 19 other genetic markers that are enzymes, proteins that are
 20 found in the blood system; And they also exist in discreet
 21 types just like I described in the abo system, an example
 22 being one that goes by the name of Esterase D, esd.  You
 23 are either type 1 or type 2.  These types are identifiable
 24 in a bloodstain.
 25           Once a stain is categorized, then we analyze a
 26 liquid sample from a known source to see if there are
 27 similarities between -- if they have the same types.  If
 28 they do, they could be from the same source.  If there are
 01 differences, then that source is eliminated as a source of
 02 the bloodstain.
 03      Q    Is that very typically what you do in that
 04 serology unit?  Forensically speaking, you determine
 05 whether an item of evidence, say a bloodstain found at a
 06 crime scene, could come from a particular person, comparing
 07 the types found in the bloodstain to the type of blood
 08 withdrawn from the person?
 09      A    That is the main thrust of the unit -- to perform
 10 these analyses but not only to try to include somebody but
 11 exclude somebody.  If the types differ, then they are
 12 excluded as being a source of that sample.
 13      Q    Now, you referred earlier to the method known as
 14 electrophoresis.
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    Can you describe briefly for us what that is?
 17      A    Electrophoresis is a technique that is utilized
 18 to determine the types of the enzymes or proteins that I
 19 mentioned earlier.  It is not used in the abo system but in
 20 these enzymes.
 21           It is, simply put, a protein or enzyme, depending
 22 on the structure of it, will have a slightly different
 23 charge to it; so the technique involves pouring a plate
 24 that is maybe 8 inches square, something like that, with
 25 agarose, which is kind of a jello-like material.
 26           The samples then are placed on threads and
 27 established in a certain location on the gel.  Current is
 28 allowed to run through it, and the enzymes or the proteins
 01 located in that sample are spread out throughout this gel.
 02 When that is done, certain identification chemicals,
 03 visualization chemicals, are placed on top of it that react
 04 with the individual enzymes and allow us to see where they
 05 travel to.  In essence, we get a band that occurs in the
 06 gel at a certain spot.
 07           We always run controls on those of a known type,
 08 which tell us where a band is supposed to show up for a
 09 particular type.  If an unknown sample matches the location
 10 of those bands of a known sample, we then can assign that
 11 type to the unknown sample.
 12      Q    So you first take a known sample and see how it
 13 runs on the gel and see where it marks?
 14      A    Well, it is not done consecutively.  It is done
 15 at the same time.
 16           A typical gel will have, say, 12 different
 17 samples on it; and out of those 12, you may have four
 18 known, or standard, samples on it.  And the remaining eight
 19 or nine spots are taken up with unknown samples.  They are
 20 all run together so you can do a direct comparison of the
 21 location of the bands to each other.
 22      Q    Now, with the enzyme and protein testing in
 23 addition to the abo testing, are you able to give smaller
 24 numbers in terms of the number of people that could
 25 possibly have been the origin of a bloodstain, for example?
 26      A    That's correct.
 27           Part of the comparison involves trying to add
 28 some significance to the information that we receive, An
 01 example being, going back to the abo blood system, if we
 02 determine that a stain is abo type o, that exists in about
 03 48 -- say 50 percent, or half, of the population.
 04           If we just had that one test, all that would do
 05 is eliminate half the population and include the other half
 06 as a possible source of that blood.
 07           At that point we would run some of these enzymes;
 08 and with each additional marker or with each type that we
 09 determine, the potential population of people that could
 10 have left that stain gets smaller and smaller.
 11           If we have a bloodstain that is a type o, which
 12 is 50 percent of the population, and identify another
 13 factor that is also 50 percent of the population, the
 14 combination of those two means that now you are down to 25
 15 percent, or you have cut the number in half.  With each
 16 additional test, that number, or possibility, gets smaller
 17 and smaller.
 18      Q    Now, in this particular case, sir, did you
 19 supervise and assist in the testing of some bloodstains and
 20 blood samples?
 21      A    I supervised and assisted in part of it, and I
 22 directly ran the tests in part of it.
 23      Q    In your experience, sir, does all evidence
 24 received by the lab for analysis bear a D.R. number?
 25      A    Yes, it does.
 26      Q    And does each case have its own discreet d.r.
 27 number in order to keep all the evidence organized in one
 28 place?
 01      A    That's correct.
 02      Q    Has this case been assigned D.R. No. 94-08-14731?
 03      A    Yes, it has.
 04      Q    And on June 24 were you asked to do serological
 05 testing on items No. 17, 59, 60 and 49?
 06      A    June 24 was the date the request was made.  I was
 07 not around when that request was made.  I actually didn't
 08 find out about it until the next day and then didn't start
 09 the testing until the 27th.
 10      Q    Now, item No. 17, is that described as the whole
 11 blood of the defendant, Mr. Orenthal Simpson?
 12      A    Yes, it is.
 13      Q    And No. 59, is that described as the whole blood
 14 of nicole brown Simpson?
 15      A    Yes, it is.
 16      Q    And no. 60, is that described as the whole blood
 17 of ronald Goldman?
 18      A    Yes, it is.
 19      Q    And No. 49, is that described as the blood
 20 recovered from the crime scene as photo i.d. no. 114?
 21      A    That's correct.
 22      Q    And showing you, sir, People's 19, photograph
 23 "e," do you see the number 114 in that photograph?
 24      A    Yes, I do.
 25      Q    And does that correspond, then, to the photo
 26 number of the item No. 49 that you tested in this case?
 27      A    That's correct.
 28      Q    What test did you perform with respect to item
 01 No. 49, first?
 02      A    With respect to that item, I ran a presumptive
 03 test for the presence of blood to determine whether or not
 04 the stain was in fact blood.  Then I ran a test to
 05 determine whether or not it was human in origin.
 06           The additional test run at that point was the abo
 07 test that I previously described and then two enzyme tests,
 08 one of them that goes by the designation "group 1," which
 09 includes three enzymes, and then an additional test that
 10 goes by the designation of "pgm subtype."
 11      Q    So you subjected that to abo testing as well as
 12 Electrophoresis?
 13      A    That's correct.
 14      Q    Now, with respect --
 15      the court:   Excuse me, Miss Clark.  I think I am
 16 going to interrupt at this particular point of time.
 17 It is just about 4:30.  We will continue with this
 18 tomorrow.
 19           Mr. Matheson, please come back tomorrow.  Do not
 20 discuss this with anyone except for the lawyers involved in
 21 this matter.
 22                (at 4:28 p.m., a recess was taken
 23                Until Friday, July 8, 1994, at 9
 24                o'clock A.m.)
 04                                        )  no. BA097211
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06             VS.                        )
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                                        )
 10                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 12                        )   SS
 22           DATED THIS 7th DAY OF July, 1994.
 24                _____________________________________
 24                      ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 25                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 27                _____________________________________
 27                       ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
 28                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER