Preliminary Hearing - July 6, 1994

 04                                        )
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06                 VS.                    )   VOLUME 8
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 13                  WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, 1994
 16                              WILLIAM HODGMAN
 17                              DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
 19                              GERALD UELMEN
 20                              PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
 26                              ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 27                              ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
 27                              OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
 01                    MOTION TO SUPPRESS
 02                        I N D E X
 02                                                     VOIR
 04 MARK FUHRMAN                    5     19       26
 05                                       28       26
 06 PHILLIP VANNATTER       26     68
 11                          -O0O-
 14                         EXHIBITS
 17     FUHRMAN                              9
 18 F - SERIES OF PHOTOS                     9
 19 G-1 - IMPOUND REPORT                    12
 20 G-2 - IMPOUND REPORT                    12
 21 G-3 - IMPOUND REPORT                    12
 02                         9:04 a.m.
 03                           -o0o-
 05      THE COURT:  Good morning.
 06      MS. CLARK:  Good morning, your Honor.
 07      MR. HODGMAN:  Good morning, your Honor.
 08      MR. UELMEN:  Good morning, your honor.
 09      MR. SHAPIRO:  Good morning, your honor.
 10      THE COURT:  Once again on the record in the case of
 11 people v. Simpson.
 12           Defendant is present with counsel.  People are
 13 represented.
 14           Miss Clark, for purposes of clarifying the record
 15 with regard to the specific items of physical evidence that
 16 we are dealing with in this motion, you had indicated to
 17 the court that the people were only going to be offering
 18 some items that were not recovered after the execution of
 19 the search warrant; is that correct?
 20      MS. CLARK:  That's correct, your Honor.
 21      THE COURT:  And those items are the glove, in essence,
 22 that was found in that pathway behind the guest quarters --
 23 is that right?
 24      MS. CLARK:  That's one.
 25      THE COURT:  -- Some blood stains from the driveway
 26 area --
 27      MS. CLARK:  That's correct.
 28      THE COURT:  -- And the blood stain from the door of
 01 the bronco?
 02      MS. CLARK:  That's correct.
 03      THE COURT:  Any other items?
 04      MS. CLARK:  Yes, your Honor.
 05      THE COURT:  And what would those be?
 06      MS. CLARK:  That would be the -- one of the blood
 07 stains leaving the crime scene at Bundy, at the Bundy
 08 address.
 09      THE COURT:  All right.
 10           But that's not a part of this motion?
 11      MS. CLARK:  No.
 12      THE COURT:  Okay.
 13           So it is those four items -- three items of
 14 physical evidence from the simpson home and grounds or
 15 vehicle that are the subject of the motion to suppress?
 16      MS. CLARK:  It might be -- in general, yes, your
 17 Honor; that's correct.
 18           It might be more than three items because there
 19 are a number of blood spots on the driveway, but
 20 collectively that's correct -- those three places.
 21      THE COURT:  And those items are enumerated in the
 22 property report somewhere in items 1 through 11?
 23      MS. CLARK:  That's correct, your Honor.
 24      THE COURT:  All right.
 25           I believe that detective Fuhrman is still on the
 26 witness stand.
 27           Sir, if you would retake the stand.
 28           You have previously been sworn and remain under
 01 oath.
 03                       mark fuhrman,
 04 having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand, was
 05 examined and testified further as follows:
 06      MR. UELMEN:  With respect to the limitation of the
 07 scope of this motion, we would like to make it clear, for
 08 the record, that the defendant will then reserve a de novo
 09 hearing on the issues raised by the motion to quash the
 10 search warrant prior to trial.  That is not being addressed
 11 in this motion.
 12      THE COURT:  That's correct.
 13           The people have indicated they are not offering
 14 any items recovered in the execution of the warrant and,
 15 therefore, the warrant would not be in issue in this
 16 proceeding.
 17      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you.
 18      THE COURT:  All right.
 20                    CROSS-EXAMINATION
 23      Q    Detective Fuhrman, we have located the notes that
 24 you made in the course of your investigation in the murder
 25 book at pages on 00198 through 00200.
 26           Did you review those before you testified?
 27      A    No, I didn't.
 28      Q    Would you like to review them?
 01      A    I don't think it would be necessary.  Maybe
 02 during the questioning, if you need to show them to me.
 03      Q    All right.
 04           The notes begin with your observations upon your
 05 arrival at the scene at 2:10 -- right? -- In the morning?
 06      A    Yes, sir.
 07      Q    Now, you indicate in these notes that Officer
 08 Riske received a radio call, quote, "possible 459 suspects
 09 there now, 874 south Bundy."
 10           Is that a direct quotation of the radio call?
 11      A    Well, as much as it was relayed to me.  And at
 12 that time I didn't know the weight of that call, if it was
 13 part of the homicide scene or it was something
 14 independent.
 15           That was Officer Riske giving me that
 16 information.  I picked up on that.  I just made a notation
 17 to question him later.
 18      Q    All right.
 19           A "possible 459" refers to a possible burglary;
 20 is that correct?
 21      A    Yes, sir.
 22      Q    And it refers to, plural, "suspects."
 23           Was it your understanding that there were
 24 suspects who were observed at the scene?
 25      A    I had no knowledge other than what he told me.  I
 26 didn't pursue it at that point.  He was just briefing us
 27 slightly on the scene, what he knew.  Then he took us into
 28 the scene.  So I just made a notation.
 01      Q    And you also noted where that original call came
 02 from, that a resident of 874 heard something across the
 03 street?
 04      A    I'm sorry.  Would you repeat that.
 05      Q    . . . Resident of 874 heard something across the
 06 street?
 07      A    That's just what Officer Riske said.
 08           Again, the way I take notes is I put a numeral by
 09 each notation and then, as I go back and start doing the
 10 investigation, I will refer back to that note number and
 11 then write maybe as much as several pages on one area that
 12 I have to go back to.
 13           These are just quick notes I made the very first
 14 few minutes I was at the crime scene.
 15      Q    so these notes are actually prepared while you
 16 are there to keep track of all of your observations and
 17 information?
 18      A    Yes; What to go back to, what should be noted at
 19 that time.  There are no measurements involved in those
 20 preliminary notes.  That is the first run through the scene
 21 and talking to the officers.
 22      Q    Excellent.
 23           And these three pages are all of the notes that
 24 you took on the morning of June 13; is that correct?
 25      A    Well, I was stopped.  I was in the process of
 26 taking notes, putting my notes to paper; and I was told
 27 that robbery-homicide would be taking over the case.  I
 28 stopped taking notes at that point and gave those notes to
 01 detective phillips, who then passed them on to detective
 02 Vannatter.
 03      Q    So, essentially, you stopped taking notes because
 04 you believed you were off the case; is that correct?
 05      A    No.  I knew I was off the case; It was no longer
 06 my case.  So I stopped there because the way they conducted
 07 the crime scene or their notes -- I would be giving them
 08 mine and they would be taking over from that point;
 09 They would review my notes up to that point and then they
 10 would continue making their own from the beginning -- when
 11 they arrived at the scene.
 12      Q    And the notes actually stop at 875 south Bundy?
 13      A    Yes, sir.
 14      Q    You took no notes whatsoever of any of the events
 15 in which you participated at 360 north Rockingham?
 16      A    That's correct.
 17      Q    When you left the scene at 875 Bundy and went to
 18 the Rockingham address, did you bring any of the evidence
 19 with you that you had encountered at the Bundy scene?
 20      A    I touched no evidence and I offered no reports.
 21      Q    Now, you indicated yesterday that one of the
 22 reasons that your attention was drawn to the white bronco
 23 was because it was parked rather strangely, I believe is
 24 the quote?
 25      A    When I was walking towards it, the front of the
 26 truck was facing my direction of travel; and it just
 27 Looked -- it just looked a little strange the way it was
 28 parked.
 01      Q    You indicated the front was much closer to the
 02 curb and the back was out into the roadway?
 03      A    Well, it was just -- it wasn't parked parallel to
 04 the curb.  It looked like it was parked hurriedly or
 05 haphazardly.
 06      Q    You indicated the wheels were turned in towards
 07 the curb?
 08      A    They were turned in towards the curb; and that
 09 would be the way the vehicle was sitting -- with the rear
 10 end jutting out -- was my impression walking forward.  I
 11 couldn't tell you how many degrees to the right they were.
 12      Q    All right.
 13      MR. UELMEN:  Your Honor, could we mark officer
 14 Fuhrman's notes as exhibit E, defense exhibit E?
 15      THE COURT:  All right.
 16           You say that consists of three pages?
 17      MR. UELMEN:  Three pages.
 18      THE COURT:  Yes.  E.
 20      Q    I am handing you what we have marked as Exhibit
 21 E.
 22           Are those all of the notes you took of your
 23 investigation in this case?
 24      A    Yes, sir.
 25      Q    All right.
 26      MR. UELMEN:  Now, we also located among the
 27 photographs supplied to the defense four pictures of the
 28 bronco automobile taken the morning of June 13.  If we
 01 could mark these defense exhibit F, your Honor.
 02      THE COURT:  Yes.
 03      MR. UELMEN:  And they are numbered 1, 2, 3 and 4.
 04      Q    Do those photographs accurately represent the
 05 position of the bronco automobile as you observed it in the
 06 early morning hours of June 13?
 07      A    If I could point to the photos.
 08           Photo 1 we previously saw.
 09           Photo 2 really doesn't show the direction I was
 10 walking.
 11           Photo 3, it seems the camera is more to the
 12 left.
 13           When I was looking at the bronco, I was several
 14 feet back and I believe I was more to the right of the
 15 vehicle, where the line of the vehicle seemed like the rear
 16 end was out a little bit more.
 17           As you can see here in photo 4, the right tire is
 18 about 4 inches onto the concrete part of the asphalt
 19 roadway; where the rear tire is completely on the asphalt,
 20 with a couple inches to spare.  And that's what I'm talking
 21 about.  It looked like it wasn't casually parked or
 22 carefully parked.  It wouldn't be how I would probably park
 23 my vehicle.  It just looked a little strange walking up on
 24 it.
 25      Q    But these photographs do accurately depict how
 26 the car was parked?
 27      A    I remembered that it was more extreme, and I am
 28 not sure that this photo shows the way my view of that was
 01 walking up towards it from a greater distance than this and
 02 a little more to the right; But I would say it would be
 03 fair to say --
 04      Q    Are you suggesting the automobile was moved
 05 between the time you saw it and the time these photographs
 06 were taken?
 07      A    I am not suggesting that at all.  I am just
 08 suggesting where our photographer took the photos from it
 09 doesn't really show where exactly I was walking.  I was
 10 walking -- almost in the middle of the roadway walking down
 11 more to the right of the vehicle.
 12           I am not saying it was moved.  It just seems my
 13 view might have given me a more extreme angle than these
 14 photos show.
 15      Q    OKAY.
 16           When you walked up to the automobile, did you
 17 check to see if the engine was warm?
 18      A    I touched the hood, and it was not warm; but I
 19 also didn't feel any moisture.  Of course, I am not sure
 20 how much of a dew there was that morning.  I also didn't
 21 look at the lawns.
 22      Q    All right.
 23           When you first observed the stain on the door,
 24 did the stain appear to be wet, or damp?
 25      A    I didn't touch it; and it didn't appear like it
 26 was flowing, or moving.  I would say it was -- appeared to
 27 be dried.
 28      Q    I asked you yesterday about some coffee stains.
 01 You indicated you did not observe any food stains or
 02 possible coffee stains on the car?
 03      A    That's true.  I didn't observe them.
 04      mr. uelmen:  We have located three different impound
 05 reports which appear in the murder book at 00108, 00110 and
 06 00111; and I would ask these be marked as exhibits G-1, -2
 07 and -3.
 08      THE COURT:  All right.
 09 by MR. UELMEN:
 10      Q    Now, these are all vehicle investigation reports
 11 related to a 1994 ford bronco, 3cwz788.
 12           That's the bronco in question; is that correct?
 13      A    I believe it is.  I don't recall the plate.
 14      Q    All right.
 15           Now, one of these reports is filled out when the
 16 automobile is moved; is that correct?
 17      A    Well, yes.
 18           It could be filled out prior, too; but it
 19 generally is, yes, when the impound is complete.
 20      Q    The first of these reports indicates June 13 at
 21 7:30 in the morning.
 22           Were you aware of the car being impounded at 7:30
 23 in the morning?
 24      A    No.
 25      Q    The second of these reports, which refers to a
 26 time of June 13 at 3:30 in the afternoon, 1530, notes:
 27 "special instructions:  take vehicle to print shack P.A.B.,
 28 across street from parker center.  Two coffee stains on
 01 hood, disregard.  Not related."
 02           What does that mean?
 03      A    Officer Don thompson, who was handling security
 04 on the Rockingham gate, said when the media was at the
 05 scene and there was a rush of activity, one of the news
 06 people running by or walking by placed a cup on the hood of
 07 the bronco; They immediately grabbed it, admonished them,
 08 obviously, "don't do that again."  and he informed me there
 09 was coffee stains.  I believe he also informed other
 10 detectives at the scene of the same thing.
 11      Q    Now, had any yellow tape or crime scene tape been
 12 placed around the automobile?
 13      A    No.  And I believe the reason for that is we
 14 didn't want to draw more attention to the vehicle than we
 15 wanted at that point.
 16           We had two officers assigned to -- specifically
 17 just to that vehicle to secure it, and they did that; And
 18 when the rush of media came by, it was really something
 19 they couldn't foresee and couldn't do anything about.
 20      Q    Okay.
 21      MR. UELMEN:  If we could mark these reports, your
 22 Honor, as G-1, G-2 and G-3.
 23      Q    Are these the vehicle reports?
 24      A    I have never seen these reports, sir.
 25      Q    I want to take you back to your --
 26      A    Sir, I might add, if I could, I do recognize the
 27 name on the bottom of the one report.  One of the authors
 28 of this report is officer thompson, who talked to me at the
 01 scene about the coffee stains.
 02      Q    Is his name on the first of those reports, the
 03 7:30 a.m. report?
 04      A    No.  This is -- the time of occurrence is 1530.
 05 That is officer Thompson's report.  I have no knowledge
 06 about the other two.
 07      Q    All right.
 08           When you were in the room of Mr. Kaelin
 09 immediately after you went to the back of the premises at
 10 Rockingham, were there any windows in that back wall of
 11 Mr. Kato's room -- or Mr. Kaelin's room?
 12           Let me get the chart out here.
 13      A    I can answer that, sir.
 14           There are no windows to that wall in Mr. Kaelin's
 15 room.
 16      Q    OKAY.
 17           I want to have you --
 18      MR. uelmen:  Could we have defense exhibit A?
 19      Q    Your memory is no windows in the back wall?
 20      A    No.  There are windows in the back wall, but
 21 there was no window in the wall where the air conditioning
 22 duct was or west of that air conditioning duct on that
 23 wall of Mr. Kato's room.  No, there wasn't.
 24      Q    Let's have you refer to where in the wall the
 25 duct was.
 26           Referring to defense exhibit a, would you point
 27 out where in that wall the air conditioning duct was.
 28      A    Mr. Kato's room is the first bungalow.  The air
 01 conditioning duct was probably just a little off center of
 02 this wall of his room, probably just to the right of his
 03 bed.  There's no windows west of there.
 04           I am not sure if there is a window for the
 05 bathroom.
 06           I am positive there was a window, maybe two
 07 windows, for Arnelle's room; and I am not positive in the
 08 back.
 09           I see a window that is depicted here, but I don't
 10 recall that.
 11      Q    Did you make any effort to look through those
 12 windows at all to see if anyone was back there?
 13      A    To look through which windows, sir?
 14      Q    The windows in the back wall of either the
 15 bathroom or Arnelle's room.
 16      A    No, I didn't look through there.  No.
 17           I believe -- excuse me, but I believe this
 18 window, the one window here, was the frosted type of opaque
 19 window; and I am not positive, but this, I think, was a
 20 higher window, elevated past my point of view.  I am not
 21 positive on that.
 22      Q    All right.
 23           Would you like to write a "W" where you indicated
 24 there was a window in Mr. Kato's bathroom.
 25      A    I am a little light of a pencil.
 26           You want a "W" where?
 27      Q    At the location where there was a window in
 28 Mr. Kato's room or the adjoining bathroom.
 01      A    I don't recall a window in his bathroom.  I said
 02 there possibly might have been one, but -- I know there
 03 were a couple of windows when I went past the air
 04 conditioner, but I don't recall if one of them was his
 05 window.
 06      Q    So you don't recall observing in the quarters
 07 occupied by Mr. Kato a window?
 08      A    No, I don't.
 09      Q    Now, in preparing your testimony for yesterday
 10 and today, did you confer with the district attorneys who
 11 are prosecuting this case?
 12      A    Yes.  We talked.
 13      Q    Was this just a conference between yourself and
 14 the district attorneys, or were the other detectives
 15 involved in the case present?
 16      A    No.  We didn't talk about the case in the
 17 presence of the detectives.  In fact, at one point marcia
 18 and I just talked between ourselves; but it was nothing very
 19 pointed, just about the tactics of the defense and that
 20 everything is going fine; "just tell everything that you
 21 did" and "you are doing fine."
 22      Q    Now, was this after the motion to suppress was
 23 filed a week ago today?
 24      A    I'm sorry.  Are you talking about -- which
 25 conversation?
 26      Q    The conversations with either Miss Clark or
 27 Mr. Hodgman?
 28      A    We discussed my portion of this case prior to the
 01 motion to suppress.  They asked me just exactly what went
 02 down; and they said, "well, we are comfortable with that."
 03 and that was pretty much it.
 04      Q    You did have not have any discussion of these
 05 events after the motion was filed on June 29?
 06      A    We reiterated the same thing we talked about
 07 before.  They said, you know, "what did you do then?" much
 08 the same as they would be bringing me through a testimony;
 09 And they felt comfortable with what transpired and what I
 10 had to say.
 11      Q    When you say "they," who were you meeting with?
 12      A    Mr. Hodgman and Miss Clark.
 13      Q    And were any other detectives present at that
 14 time?
 15      A    No.  I talked to them by themselves.
 16      Q    Now, if you were giving someone directions to go
 17 to Mr. Simpson's home on Rockingham, how would you direct
 18 them?
 19      A    From the Bundy location?
 20      Q    Yes.
 21      A    I would say, probably, to go northbound on Bundy
 22 to -- there's two ways you could go:  eastbound on
 23 San Vicente past Cliffwood to Rockingham or go up Cliffwood
 24 northbound from San Vicente -- that would probably be the
 25 easiest way -- Cliffwood northbound to sunset and sunset
 26 east to either Bristol circle or Rockingham and then go
 27 northbound once again.  Bristol circle will eventually
 28 curve you around to Rockingham.  Cliffwood, if you went
 01 northbound from sunset, would eventually bring you to
 02 Ashford; and Rockingham would go directly to the house.
 03      Q    Wouldn't the simplest way to be go up Bundy to
 04 sunset and then go left to Rockingham?
 05      A    The simplest on those streets is lights to go
 06 across sunset and not get lost.
 07           If you get to Bristol circle, it is kind of
 08 confusing.  There is Bristol circle, Bristol court.  It is
 09 kind of confusing.
 10      Q    If you could reiterate for us the precise time,
 11 as you remember, that you first observed the glove on the
 12 premises at 360 Rockingham.
 13      A    It is pretty hard to be precise, but I will get
 14 as close as I can.
 15           We arrived at approximately 5:10.
 16      Q    I would just like to know the time you observed
 17 the glove.
 18      A    Give me a moment.
 19           I would probably say approximately 6:15 to 6:30.
 20      Q    6:15 to 6:30?
 21      A    Maybe it could be as early as 6; but, like I
 22 said, I didn't look at my watch at that point.
 23      mr. uelmen:  Thank you.
 24      THE COURT:  Miss Clark, do you have any additional
 25 questions?
 26      MS. CLARK:  A few.  Thank you, your Honor.
 01                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 04      Q    The note that was pointed out to you by defense
 05 counsel just now concerning Officer Riske, that was a radio
 06 call that was given to Officer Riske?
 07      A    I believe so.  I just -- I heard him indicate
 08 that he heard the call.  I don't know if it was directed at
 09 his police unit or another unit and he picked up the audio
 10 part of the call.
 11           He just informed me of that situation.  I didn't
 12 know if it was related at that time.
 13      Q    Did you ever determine how a burglary call came
 14 to be placed concerning a murder investigation?
 15      A    No.  Once I was no longer part of the primary
 16 investigative team, I was at the direction of Vannatter and
 17 Lange; and they pretty much dictated the investigative path
 18 we were going to take.  And that's why I gave them my notes
 19 and just followed their direction for the remainder of the
 20 time.
 21      Q    What, if any, impact did that information
 22 concerning the radio call received by Officer Riske have on
 23 your actions or your decisions on that night or early
 24 morning of June 13?
 25      A    Well, it would lend to the possibility there were
 26 people other than the two victims at the scene, which
 27 corroborated the footprints leading away from the scene.
 28 It would say that someone -- a victim, a suspect -- or I
 01 believe there was a call that said "suspects" -- it could
 02 have been one -- could also have been in the struggle in
 03 front of the house.  I had no idea because I never took it
 04 any farther.
 05      Q    So did that radio call received by Officer Riske
 06 have any impact on the decisions you made later concerning
 07 the case, what to do as the events unfolded through the
 08 early morning hours of June 13?
 09      A    At the Bundy location?
 10      Q    Right.
 11      A    For me, no, because I was relieved of the
 12 responsibility of decision making at that point; and, as I
 13 said, I was just going at the direction of detective
 14 Vannatter and Lange.
 15      Q    Do you know whether they ever knew of that radio
 16 call that Officer Riske got concerning a burglary in
 17 progress?
 18      A    I know they received my notes; so I assume they
 19 read them and they did talk to Officer Riske.  I was not
 20 privileged to be there when they talked to Officer Riske;
 21 so --
 22      Q    You don't know what they found out about that?
 23      A    No.
 24      Q    all right.
 25           With respect to finding the glove, after you
 26 found the glove, what did you do?
 27           You saw the glove on the walk.  Then what did you
 28 do?
 01      A    I continued eastbound on the path that went to
 02 the rear of the property; and I spent -- I am not going to
 03 say a considerable amount of time -- I am going to say
 04 about 15 minutes looking for a person that could have left
 05 that glove there, which indicated somebody was injured.  I
 06 looked in all places I believed a human could secret
 07 himself or collapse in that area, and then I returned to
 08 the front of the residence.
 09      Q    So you walked all the way back to that back area
 10 that you have indicated earlier on the diagram, shown here
 11 behind what is marked on the defense diagram as "Arnelle's
 12 room"?
 13      A    Behind that location, yes.
 14      Q    Then you walked all the way back up this path?
 15 Is that what you are saying?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    And all the way around through the driveway and
 18 into the front?
 19      A    I believe detective phillips was standing in
 20 front of the residence, and I spoke with him.
 21      Q    And when you got inside, you said you spoke to
 22 the detectives?
 23      A    Yes.
 24           I believe detective Phillips informed detective
 25 Vannatter and Lange of the discovery, and they came out to
 26 me in the front.
 27      Q    Did they come out one by one or altogether?
 28      A    One by one.
 01      Q    So did you go with them each time?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    And who did you go with first?
 04      A    Detective phillips.
 05      Q    And what was the route you took with him?
 06      A    The same route that I took originally from the
 07 front entrance:  directly south in front of the garage and
 08 then entering the path going eastbound, continuing down,
 09 explaining the areas and how and why I determined that the
 10 main house was separated by this corridor from the
 11 bungalows and how the architecture changed, how -- I was
 12 describing that to them -- And then how I looked down and
 13 saw the dark object 15, 20 feet from me and, as I got
 14 closer, I realized what it was and it was right almost
 15 exactly where Mr. Kaelin described a crashing noise.
 16      Q    And the area on the wall where he described the
 17 crashing noise, was there any window near to the area he
 18 described hearing the noise come from?
 19      A    no.
 20      Q    So, then, after taking detective phillips down to
 21 that area and describing everything that you saw, who did
 22 you take next?
 23      A    Detective Vannatter.
 24      Q    And did you do the same thing with him?
 25      A    Yes; exactly the same thing.
 26      Q    And so each time you went, you took the detective
 27 all the way down to where the glove was and brought them
 28 all the way back?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    And then did you do the same with detective
 03 Lange?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    Did you take any of the detectives all the way
 06 back to the area behind Arnelle's room that you described
 07 going to yourself earlier?
 08      A    I don't believe so.
 09           I described to detective phillips -- I am almost
 10 positive I did to both the other detectives -- I scooted
 11 underneath the air conditioner -- it pretty much covered
 12 the path.  it was elevated, but it covered the path -- I
 13 ran into the spider webs; and I told them that -- that I
 14 looked in the area but I didn't see anything that would
 15 lead us to believe anybody was back in that area.
 16      Q    When you say you scooted under the air
 17 conditioner, did you have to stoop down?  Is that what you
 18 are saying?
 19      A    Yes; Scoot down.  You don't have to get on your
 20 hands and knees, but you have to get down low.
 21           It goes on an angle.  It is an air conditioner
 22 that sticks out a foot and a half, 2 feet and has braces
 23 that go at a 45-degree angle from the air conditioner,
 24 that attach to the wall at the bottom, below it.
 25      Q    After you took the last detective all the way
 26 back to show the glove, did you come back to the front of
 27 the house?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    And what did you do then?
 02      A    I didn't do anything.  I just stood there and
 03 waited.
 04           And I went in and I heard a discussion by
 05 detective Vannatter, a comment made shortly Thereafter,
 06 "we are going to have to handle this like a crime scene."
 07      Q    Do you know approximately what time that was when
 08 you heard that discussion?
 09      A    No.  After that I came out front.
 10           To be honest with you, I was a little taken back
 11 by what had transpired.  We didn't enter with any intention
 12 of finding anything there, and I just kind of stood out
 13 there and I was really kind of collecting my thoughts.
 14           When I found the glove back here on this pathway,
 15 I will have to -- I have to admit to you that the Adrenalin
 16 started pumping because I didn't really know what was going
 17 on; and no matter if I found a victim or a suspect, I still
 18 had some type of a very serious situation at that time.  And
 19 I think I was coming down from that a little bit.
 20      Q    You mean -- when you say "the Adrenalin," you mean
 21 from seeing the crime scene?
 22      A    No.
 23      Q    From seeing the glove?
 24      A    When I found the glove and actually realized this
 25 glove was very close in description and color to the glove
 26 at the crime scene, my heart started pounding and I
 27 realized what I had probably found.
 28           When that gets going and you never get a chance
 01 to run it off or get rid of it, you get kind of a down
 02 time; and I think I was collecting my -- not composure but
 03 my thoughts a little bit out front.
 04      Q    So while you were collecting your thoughts and
 05 relaxing after your discovery, you heard a discussion going
 06 on inside the house?
 07      A    Yes.  I walked into the front of the residence;
 08 and in the kitchen, detective Lange and Vannatter were
 09 discussing what had been found.  I believe detective
 10 phillips was in there, also.  And they were discussing "we
 11 really have got another crime scene here," and a search
 12 warrant was brought up -- "We have to get a search
 13 warrant."  Detective Vannatter said that.  And I don't know
 14 exactly what time that was.
 15      Q    You were not in the frame of mind to examine your
 16 watch or look at a clock?
 17      A    like I said before, I was kind of taken back by
 18 the whole event; so -- we didn't go up there for this,
 19 And --
 20      MS. CLARK:  May I have a moment, your Honor?
 21      THE COURT:  Yes.
 22      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 23           Thank you.  I have nothing further.
 24      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen.
 01                    RECROSS-EXAMINATION
 04      Q    Detective Fuhrman, who was in charge at the
 05 Rockingham scene?  Which of the four detectives?
 06      A    Detective Vannatter.
 07      Q    And like yourself, detective phillips had been
 08 relieved of further responsibility in the case?
 09      A    Well, at that time it was actually three
 10 detectives that responded to the Bundy scene:  myself,
 11 detective Phillips and detective Roberts.  He got there
 12 after us; And he was interviewing witnesses, I believe the
 13 witnesses that saw the dog.  He had gone to West L.A.
 14 station.  So while we were there at the scene, we were all
 15 relieved.
 16      Q    all right.
 17           Now, with respect to the excitement you felt at
 18 encountering the glove, you realized immediately that this
 19 may have broken the case?
 20      A    I don't think it was excitement.  I was caught on
 21 a 2-foot path in a -- poorly lit, with a little tiny
 22 flashlight, by myself, with no vest; And I must admit that I
 23 think the only reason I proceeded is I felt more that I
 24 might have had a victim than a suspect.
 25           I don't know why I thought that.  Like I said, I
 26 did not believe the circumstances would unfold as they did
 27 when I led these detectives up to Rockingham.
 28           I continued, probably hoping that I could find
 01 some answer for this glove or somebody that had been
 02 injured or something; but it was more alert than excitement.
 03      Q    And the first person to whom you reported finding
 04 the glove was detective phillips; is that correct?
 05      A    Yes.
 06           He was in front of the residence.  He was the
 07 first person I saw.  And I said, "ron, come here.  I got to
 08 talk to you."
 09      Q    And you took detective phillips back to see the
 10 glove before you even informed detective Vannatter that the
 11 glove had been found?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    So Vannatter learned about the glove -- what? --
 14 About a half-hour after you found it?
 15      A    No.  I think it would be within 15 minutes, give
 16 or take.
 17      Q    You indicated you spent 15 minutes after you saw
 18 the glove searching this area behind the house?
 19      A    I thought you meant after I talked to detective
 20 phillips.
 21           Yes.  I did do that and then came and talked to
 22 detective phillips.
 23      Q    And then came and talked to detectives phillips
 24 and took him back?
 25      A    Right.
 26      Q    That took about another 15 minutes?
 27      A    Ten or fifteen.
 28      Q    So detective Vannatter learned about the glove
 01 the first time a half-hour after you discovered it?
 02      A    That could be very close to the time, yes.
 03      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you.
 04           Nothing further.
 05      THE COURT:  Anything further?
 07                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 10      Q    Detective Fuhrman, you are estimating time for us
 11 now, are you not?
 12      A    Yes.  I can't remember -- outside of at the crime
 13 scene on Bundy, I didn't look at my watch much at all that
 14 morning.
 15      Q    At the Rockingham address, again, are these
 16 estimates of time as to the amount of time that elapsed
 17 between certain events?
 18      A    Absolutely.
 19      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 20           Nothing further.
 21      THE COURT:  Anything further, Mr. Uelmen?
 22      MR. UELMEN:  Nothing further.
 23      THE COURT:  Thank you, detective.
 24           I remind you, you are not to discuss your
 25 testimony with any other witness in this matter.  You can
 26 discuss it with the lawyers, if necessary; and that's all.
 27 Thank you.
 28      MS. CLARK:  People call detective Vannatter.
 01      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen, exhibits G-1, -2 and -3 are on
 02 the witness stand.  Would you mind collecting those,
 03 please.
 04      MR. UELMEN:  Certainly.
 05      THE COURT:  Detective, you were sworn yesterday in
 06 connection with these proceedings; so you may retake the
 07 witness stand.  I remind you are still under oath.
 08      THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
 10                     phillip vannatter,
 11 recalled as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
 12 having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand, was
 13 examined and testified further as follows:
 14      THE COURT:  State your name, for the record.
 15      THE WITNESS:  Phillip Vannatter.
 16      THE COURT:  Spell your last name, please.
 17      THE WITNESS:  V, as in Victor, -a-n-n-a-t-t-e-r.
 18      THE COURT:  Miss Clark.
 19      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, your Honor.
 21                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 24      Q    Detective Vannatter, tell us what you do for a
 25 living.
 26      A    Yes.
 27           I am a police detective, Los Angeles police
 28 department, assigned to robbery-homicide division, homicide
 01 special section.
 02      Q    And how long have you been assigned to homicide
 03 special section of the robbery-homicide division?
 04      A    I have been assigned to robbery-homicide division
 05 for 15 years and homicide special section for about 8
 06 years.
 07      Q    How long have you been on the force altogether?
 08      A    25-1/2 years this month.
 09      Q    And how many homicides have you investigated in
 10 those 25-1/2 years?
 11      A    Well, I have been assigned actually working
 12 homicides starting 1973 and have probably been personally
 13 involved in over 200 and have probably been to or assisted
 14 in 5- to 600 crime scenes.
 15      Q    Can you tell us what the robbery-homicide
 16 division does?
 17      A    I can tell you what the homicide special section
 18 does, yes.
 19      Q    OKAY.
 20      A    We are a section set up to handle high profile or
 21 very involved or serial-type murder investigations.
 22      Q    And in that regard, sir, with respect to the case
 23 now before the court, what is your role in this case?
 24      A    What is my role?
 25      Q    Yes.
 26      A    I was assigned this case at -- I got the original
 27 phone call on the 13th of June at 3 o'clock in the
 28 morning.  I responded to the scene and took charge of the
 01 investigation.
 02      Q    So you are one of the investigating officers in
 03 charge of this case?
 04      A    That's correct, yes.
 05      Q    And how many others are there?
 06      A    Well, there's my partner, detective Tom Lange.
 07      Q    And is he also assigned to the robbery-homicide,
 08 homicide special?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    You got the call, you tell us, at 3 o'clock in
 11 the morning?
 12      A    I got the original phone call at my home at 3
 13 o'clock in the morning.  That's correct.
 14      Q    And where did you go pursuant to that call?
 15      A    I was instructed to go to 875 south Bundy.  I
 16 prepared myself and responded to that location.
 17      Q    What time did you arrive?
 18      A    At 4:05 in the morning.
 19      Q    What did you see when you got there?
 20      A    I was met by detective phillips and detective
 21 Mark Fuhrman.  Detective phillips is the homicide
 22 coordinator for west Los Angeles division.
 23           I was told that there was a double homicide at
 24 that location and that one of the victims had been
 25 identified as nicole simpson.
 26           Detective phillips further told me that two minor
 27 children, two small children, had been taken from the
 28 residence and were presently in custody at West L.A.
 01 division.
 02      Q    Now, did someone walk you through the crime scene
 03 so that you could see what you had there?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    Who was that?
 06      A    Detective phillips gave me a walk-through of the
 07 crime scene.
 08      Q    Now, when you say "a walk-through," did you step
 09 through the evidence?
 10      A    No.  We approached the actual scene of the two
 11 victims through a planter area that would have been south
 12 of the actual location of the two victims; and then after
 13 viewing that location, he gave me a walk through the
 14 walkway that headed west, to the back of the apartment
 15 building, that led to the alley.
 16      Q    So you stood from a position where you would not
 17 disturb anything in terms of the crime scene or the
 18 evidence in it?
 19      A    Definitely.  I was standing in the foliage in a
 20 planter.
 21      Q    Can you please describe for us the condition in
 22 which you found the victims in this case?
 23      A    Yes.
 24           Nicole Simpson was lying at the entrance gate, on
 25 the walkway right in front of the front step that stepped
 26 up to go up toward the residence.  The gate was open.
 27           And ron Goldman was lying directly north of her
 28 location, in a planter area that would have been on the
 01 north side of the walkway.
 02      Q    Now, were you able to tell what the cause of
 03 death was at that point?
 04      A    No.  I could not.
 05           It appeared to be massive injuries.  There was a
 06 lot of blood.  Blood had actually drained and run down the
 07 walkway towards the sidewalk.  There was a lot of blood
 08 there.  I couldn't tell other than there was some type of
 09 massive injury.
 10      Q    Now, were you able to see any evidence near
 11 either one of the victims?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    What did you see?
 14      A    I saw at the feet of ron Goldman a man's leather
 15 glove, left-handed leather brown glove.
 16           Just below that, which would have been just
 17 directly southeast of that, was a blue knit cap.
 18           Also, between the two victims I saw a white
 19 envelope lying on the ground.  There was a set of keys and
 20 a pager.
 21      Q    Did you go into any other areas of the crime
 22 scene to examine them other than that front area where you
 23 saw the victims?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    Where did you go?
 26      A    Detective phillips took me west on the walkway
 27 that would be on the north side of the residence to show
 28 Me -- and I observed -- bloody footprints leading -- that
 01 appeared to be leading from the actual crime scene, the
 02 location of the two victims, to the rear of the building,
 03 along the walkway.
 04           I also observed as he was showing me, as we are
 05 going through, blood droplets that appeared to be not
 06 associated with the two victims, as if the person leaving
 07 the bloody footprints was dripping blood from something, as
 08 they appeared to be straight-down drops on the ground.
 09      Q    Did they appear to you -- those blood drops -- to
 10 be alongside the bloody footprints?
 11      A    Yes, definitely.
 12      Q    When you say "footprints," were those barefoot
 13 prints?
 14      A    No.  They were shoe prints.
 15      Q    Could you see a heel in those prints?
 16      A    There was a pattern, yes.  I could see a pattern.
 17      Q    I'm sorry.  Did you say to what side of the
 18 footprints you were seeing the blood drops?
 19      A    to the left side.
 20      Q    Thank you.
 21           Now, having made the observations you did at the
 22 crime scene, sir, did you continue to confer with the West
 23 L.A. detectives, detective Fuhrman and detective phillips?
 24      A    Yes, that's correct.
 25      Q    Why did you do that if this was your case?
 26      A    I was awaiting the arrival of my partner, who was
 27 approximately 20 to 25 minutes behind me.  I instructed the
 28 two West L.A. detectives we would take charge of the scene;
 01 and I waited for my partner to arrive to acclimate him with
 02 the scene, also.
 03      Q    At some point did you leave the scene of 875
 04 south Bundy?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    Why did you do that?
 07      A    Well, a number of reasons.
 08           Knowing that one of the victims had been
 09 identified as nicole Simpson, knowing that her husband --
 10 or ex-husband at that point was a very well-known person;
 11 that we had two children in custody, two minor children
 12 that had been taken from this very traumatic scene, we made
 13 a determination to go to Mr. Simpson's residence and
 14 attempt to notify him of the death before the media got
 15 word of it and to also make arrangements for the
 16 disposition of the two children that were his children.
 17      Q    So who went with you to the location of
 18 Mr. Simpson's residence?
 19      A    There were three others besides myself.  Myself
 20 and my partner and detective Fuhrman and detective
 21 phillips.
 22      Q    Why did detective phillips and detective Fuhrman
 23 go with you?
 24      A    They had been originally involved in the
 25 investigation.  They were assisting us.  And we went up
 26 there for a number of reasons.
 27           Again, I say -- also, knowing the close proximity
 28 of the crime scene to where Mr. Simpson lived, it was also
 01 my feeling, my belief, that we needed to check the welfare
 02 up there, also.  This was a very traumatic, bloody scene.
 03      Q    Tell me, sir -- so you drove actually that night
 04 from 875 south Bundy to 360 Rockingham avenue?
 05      A    That's correct.
 06      Q    Can you estimate for us about how long it took
 07 you to get from 875 south Bundy to 360 Rockingham avenue?
 08      A    Probably not more than five minutes.
 09      Q    So what happened after you got to the Rockingham
 10 avenue address?
 11      A    We drove up Rockingham north from sunset
 12 boulevard to Ashford street.  We turned right, east, and
 13 parked at the curb and walked to the gate.  And as I drove
 14 in, I noticed a white ford bronco parked at the -- this
 15 would be the east curb of Rockingham -- parked on the
 16 Ashford south curb and got out and attempted to utilize the
 17 intercom to raise someone in the home.
 18      Q    And the intercom you are talking about, where was
 19 that located?
 20      A    That intercom is located on the east side of the
 21 Ashford street gate.  And looking at this diagram, it would
 22 have been right in this area right here.
 23      MS. CLARK:  For the record, the witness has pointed
 24 To -- it is hard to describe -- the area where what appears
 25 to be a wall indicated up by Ashford street meets the edge
 26 of the driveway that is to the right, the right edge of the
 27 driveway.
 28      THE COURT:  All right.
 02      Q    Was that a button you pressed?
 03      A    Yes, that's correct.
 04      Q    When you pressed the button, could you hear
 05 anything?
 06      A    Yes.  I could hear the phone ringing inside the
 07 residence.
 08      Q    Did you get any response?
 09      A    No.
 10      Q    When you drove to the Ashford street side, did
 11 you come up Rockingham first?
 12      A    Yes, that's correct.
 13      Q    As you drove up Rockingham, did you notice
 14 whether there were any cars parked outside the Rockingham
 15 gate in front of the residence?
 16      A    Yes, I did.
 17      Q    What did you notice?
 18      A    I noticed a white ford bronco parked at the east
 19 curb of Rockingham just north of the Rockingham gate to the
 20 residence.
 21      Q    Showing you the exhibits that have been
 22 previously marked collectively People's 8, can you tell me
 23 if you recognize what you see there in photograph -a, -b
 24 and -c?
 25      A    Yes.  I do.
 26      Q    What is that?
 27      A    That is the ford bronco that was parked at the
 28 curb.
 01      Q    So you rang the first time and you received no
 02 answer.
 03           What did you do next?
 04      A    well, we rang the bell for a period of time,
 05 probably 10 to 15 minutes, attempting to raise someone in
 06 the residence.
 07           There was a light on on the bottom floor.  It
 08 appeared to be toward the south side of the house.  There
 09 was also a light on in the upstairs portion of the home.
 10           We rang the bell for a period of time, trying to
 11 get some response; and we didn't.
 12      Q    Could you estimate how long you rang the bell
 13 for, without getting a response?
 14      A    Oh, I believe it was in the area of 10 to 15
 15 minutes, probably.
 16           During this time I noticed a westec security
 17 sign, which is a private security company that works in
 18 that area; And I requested detective phillips to contact
 19 them to see if we could get a telephone phone number for
 20 the residence.
 21      Q    And did he do so?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    Did you have a phone with you, a mobile phone?
 24      A    He did.  I didn't.
 25      Q    Did he use that to make a phone call to westec?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    And after making that phone call, what happened
 28 next?
 01      A    We continued to ring the bell.
 02           In the meantime I walked back around -- while the
 03 other detectives were there, I walked back around and
 04 looked at the ford bronco and noticed the bronco was parked
 05 like it had been hastily parked at the curb, with the front
 06 end a little closer to the curb than the rear end.  And
 07 detective Fuhrman was with me -- or there when I got there,
 08 and he directed me to look in the rear of the vehicle.
 09           In the rear there was a package that was
 10 addressed, I believe, to Orenthal productions.  There was a
 11 shovel and a piece of plastic wrapped up in it.
 12      Q    I'm sorry, sir; But the package you said was
 13 addressed to Orenthal productions, did that mean something
 14 to you?
 15      A    Yeah.  It indicated to me it was most likely
 16 Mr. Simpson's vehicle because I knew his name was Orenthal.
 17      Q    OKAY.
 18      A    I asked detective Fuhrman to run a department of
 19 motor vehicle registration check on the vehicle.
 20      Q    Did he give you the results of that check?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    And what was the result?
 23      A    That the vehicle was registered to Hertz Corp.
 24      Q    And what, if any, significance did that
 25 information have to you?
 26      A    Well, I knew that Mr. Simpson was a spokesperson
 27 for Hertz Corp.  I believed it was his vehicle.
 28      Q    So you made the observations of the ford bronco?
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    Then what?
 03      A    Walked back around.
 04           By this time westec had sent a unit to our
 05 location.
 06      Q    Did you speak to them?
 07      A    Detective phillips did.
 08      Q    In your presence?
 09      A    Yeah.
 10           I was standing back.  I didn't hear the total
 11 context of the conversation, but detective phillips told me
 12 that he was having a hard time securing a phone number for
 13 the location and they were sending a supervisor to the
 14 scene.
 15      Q    Did you or detective phillips find out whether
 16 westec had been given advance notice that the defendant was
 17 going to be out of town?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    And what was that information?
 20      A    The information was that westec had no prior
 21 knowledge of any travel plans for the occupants of that
 22 residence.  And they also informed us there was supposed to
 23 be a live-in maid at the location.
 24      Q    Did you wait for a supervisor from westec to come
 25 out and give you the home phone number?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    And what did you do in the meantime?
 28      A    We still attempted to ring the bell to raise
 01 someone in the residence.  At that point I was becoming a
 02 little worried.  It seemed like there were lights on.  We
 03 knew there was supposed to be a maid there.  And we were
 04 getting no response.
 05           During this period of time, detective Fuhrman
 06 came to me and directed me back to the ford bronco and --
 07      Q    What did he tell you?
 08      A    Pardon?
 09      Q    What did he tell you?
 10      A    He told me he saw what he thought -- what he
 11 believed to be blood on the car, and he directed me back to
 12 the vehicle and pointed out an area along the driver's side
 13 door handle of the car.
 14           I looked at it; and it appeared to be blood to me,
 15 also.
 16           At that point I told detective Fuhrman that I was
 17 really worried based on the fact we had a very violent
 18 murder scene within five minutes of Mr. Simpson's
 19 residence; we had no knowledge of any travel plans that he
 20 had; the security company was not notified; there was
 21 supposed to be a live-in maid there; there were lights on
 22 in the residence; and there appeared to be blood on the
 23 outside.  I become very concerned at that point.
 24      Q    Now, at some point did the westec supervisor
 25 arrive?
 26      A    Yeah.  He was there.  He came.  He gave a phone
 27 number to detective phillips.
 28      Q    And did you dial that phone number?
 01      A    Detective phillips did with his mobile phone,
 02 yes.
 03      Q    What was the result of that?
 04      A    We got an answerphone from inside the residence,
 05 indicating -- the voice on the answerphone -- something to
 06 the extent, "this is O.J.  I am not here.  Leave a
 07 Message" -- Something like that.
 08      Q    So there was no response using the phone number?
 09      A    No.  There was an answerphone.
 10      Q    So at this point, having received no response
 11 through phone calls to the house or ringing at the gate,
 12 with lights on in the house and all that you learned from
 13 westec, you saw the blood on the bronco?
 14      A    That's correct.
 15      Q    What did you decide to do?
 16      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, I am going to object to the
 17 form of the question.
 18      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Uelmen is apparently
 19 handling this part of the motion.
 20      MR. SHAPIRO:  I am going to do this witness.
 21      THE COURT:  You are going to do it?
 22      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.  So I would make an objection at
 23 this point in time that the question -- 90 percent of it is
 24 restating his testimony.
 25           The question was what did you do next.
 26           Motion to strike the question.
 27      THE COURT:  The question is not evidence.
 28      MR. SHAPIRO:  I understand that, but we object to the
 01 form of the question.
 02      THE COURT:  Miss Clark, I really am paying attention.
 03 You don't have to repeat everything.
 04      MS. CLARK:  I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to indicate you
 05 weren't.  I was just making a foundational showing with the
 06 officer to bring him along.
 07      Q    So based on all you knew, what did you decide to
 08 do?
 09      A    I conferred with my partner very briefly, told
 10 him my concerns and made a decision we should go in there
 11 to check and see if everything was okay.
 12      Q    What were your concerns, sir?
 13      A    Well, my concern was, again, we were within five
 14 minutes of a very, very brutal murder scene.  I knew the
 15 scene was connected with Mr. Simpson because it was -- his
 16 ex-wife and children were there.
 17           After arriving there and learning that no one had
 18 any knowledge of any prior travel plans, seeing lights on
 19 in the residence, being told that there should be a live-in
 20 maid, I was concerned that something had occurred there,
 21 whether I had a second murder scene, whether I had someone
 22 injured, whether I had someone that was stalking
 23 Mr. Simpson and his wife, whatever.
 24           I became concerned someone could be hurt or
 25 injured in that location.
 26      Q    At that point, how long had you been outside the
 27 residence at 360 Rockingham, attempting to reach someone
 28 inside?
 01      A    I would have to estimate that.  I would say in
 02 the vicinity of 40 minutes.
 01      Q    Did you make any attempt to verify whether the
 02 blood, what you thought was blood on the Bronco, was
 03 indeed blood?
 04      A    Yes.   After I was shown the area and come to
 05 the conclusion that it looked like blood to me, I
 06 requested a criminalist to respond to my location,
 07 knowing that regardless of what I had there, whether I
 08 had another scene, someone injured or whatever, there
 09 was going to have to be collection of evidence.   So I
 10 requested a criminalist respond to my location.
 11      Q    And to confirm or refute what you thought was
 12 blood?
 13      A    Exactly, yes.
 14      Q    So at that point, what did you decide to do?
 15      A    Go over the wall.
 16      Q    Did you go over the wall?
 17      A    No.   No.   I asked detective Fuhrman to.
 18 He's younger and I believe probably a little more
 19 athletic than me, so I asked him to go over the wall.
 20      Q    And he did?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    What happened next?
 23      A    He opened the gate by releasing a hinge, and
 24 we walked to the front door of the residence, knocked on
 25 the door several times, got no response.
 26      Q    After knocking several times and getting no
 27 response, what did you do next?
 28      A    Again, I still had the concern that there
 01 could be -- that this could be a second crime scene, a
 02 second murder scene.  So we began checking the property
 03 to insure that no one was hurt, injured or not a second
 04 scene there.
 05           So we moved from the front door area around
 06 the north side of the residence to check the area to
 07 make sure no one was down or whatever, and moved to the
 08 back of the residence.
 09      MS. CLARK:  For the record, the witness was
 10 pointing to the path indicated by two parallel lines
 11 curved through what appears to be an indication of
 12 foliage on the illustration, on the Ashford side of the
 13 residence.
 15      Q    And did you go -- where did you go when you
 16 went up through that Ashford side of the residence?
 17      A    I was actually behind, my partner and
 18 detective Phillips were in front, and as I walked
 19 through, I noticed a pool area, a tennis court area
 20 behind, and I was looking -- actually, I was looking to
 21 see if I could see anything on the grounds as I'm going
 22 back.
 23      Q    What do you mean by "anything"?
 24      A    Any persons down, anybody hurt, anything.   I
 25 didn't really know at that point what I had or what I
 26 was looking for.
 27      Q    Did you -- so you were just walking back there
 28 and scanning the area?
 01      A    Yes.   As I walked back on the walkway.
 02      Q    Was it lit back there?
 03      A    No.
 04      Q    What was the lighting like?
 05      A    No, no, it was dark.
 06      Q    Where did you go?
 07      A    I followed detective Phillips and my partner,
 08 Detective Lange, to a guest house area which is at the
 09 rear location on the south side of the property.
 10      Q    Do you see that indicated on the defendant's
 11 exhibit?
 12      A    Yes, I do.
 13      Q    Can you point it out for us.
 14      A    Yes.   I crossed along the back of the
 15 residence, between the pool and the home, into this
 16 area.
 17      MS. CLARK:  Shall I hold it up, Your Honor, so you
 18 can see?
 19      THE COURT:  That's all right.   If I stand up, I
 20 can see.
 22      Q    Can you point that out for the court, please?
 23      A    Yes.   We came down the walkway, around the
 24 back of the residence, observed this area and walked
 25 over here and started to knock on the doorway.
 26      Q    And is that the area on the diagram marked
 27 "Kato's room"?
 28      A    That's correct, yes.
 01      Q    Were you standing at the door of Kato's room
 02 when someone knocked?
 03      A    I was standing back.   I was up -- there's, I
 04 believe, three steps that go down to a walkway to the
 05 door.   I was standing up at the top of the steps when
 06 detective Phillips knocked on the door.
 07      Q    What happened next?
 08      A    The door was answered fairly quickly by -- it
 09 turned out to be Brian Kaelin.
 10           Detective Phillips asked him if there was
 11 anybody else on the property, and he said yes, Arnelle
 12 Simpson was in the room next door, which would be the
 13 room which would be directly south of where he was at.
 14      Q    On the defense diagram?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    And is that marked as "Arnelle's room" on the
 17 diagram?
 18      A    That's correct.
 19      Q    Prior to doing so, did he or you or anyone in
 20 your presence inform Kato that -- what was going on,
 21 what had transpired?
 22      A    No one did in my presence, no.
 23      Q    Do you know what, if anything, they gave him
 24 as a reason for needing to contact someone who could
 25 gain access to the main house?
 26      A    You know, I didn't talk to him at that time.
 27 I don't really know.
 28      Q    You don't know what the conversation was with
 01 him.
 02      A    No.
 03      Q    After he -- after this Kato directed you to
 04 Arnelle's room, what did you do?
 05      A    I followed my partner.   My partner knocked on
 06 the door, and it was fairly quickly opened by Arnelle
 07 Simpson.
 08      Q    So you did not remain with Kato.
 09      A    No.
 10      Q    Did anyone?
 11      A    Detective Fuhrman, I believe, remained with
 12 Kato at that point.
 13      Q    When you went to Arnelle's room, what
 14 happened?
 15      A    She answered the door, and I believe detective
 16 Phillips had come up.  And detective Phillips told her
 17 that we needed to get in touch with her father, did she
 18 know where he was at, and she responded -- she answered
 19 the question with another question.   She pointed toward
 20 the house and said, "isn't he here?"
 21      Q    Indicating the house when she said "here."
 22      A    Yes.
 23           And I asked her, "well, is he?   I don't know.
 24 Is he here?"
 25           And she looked sort of quizzical and she says
 26 at that point -- either -- I believe myself, I asked
 27 her, "do you have a key?   Can we check to see if your
 28 father is here?   We need to get in touch with him."
 01              And she said, "yes, I have a key," and she
 02 took us into the house.
 03      Q    Did you or anyone in your presence inform her
 04 of why you were there in these early morning hours
 05 asking about her father?
 06      A    I believe she was informed as we walked toward
 07 the house by my partner that we were investigating a
 08 double homicide that involved Nicole Brown.
 09      Q    Was there any indication given to her at her
 10 door, at her door of the guest unit, that there was
 11 something going on, an emergency?
 12      A    Yeah.   That it was an emergency, that we
 13 needed to contact her father.
 14      Q    So she opened the door with a key?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    And invited you in?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    Once you got in the house, what did you do?
 19      A    I immediately asked her -- knowing that there
 20 was supposed to be a maid there, I asked her, "where is
 21 the maid's quarters?   Isn't there supposed to be a maid
 22 here?"
 23           And she took me through the back of the house
 24 into the kitchen to an area off the utility room that
 25 would be on the south side of the kitchen.
 26      Q    Why did you ask her to do that, take you to
 27 see the maid?
 28      A    Because I was worried.   I didn't know what
 01 was going on.   I didn't know whether the maid was
 02 there, whether she was injured, whether she'd been
 03 murdered or what.   I needed to find out.
 04      Q    So she took -- Arnelle took you to the maid's
 05 bedroom?
 06      A    She took me to the room, opened the door and
 07 you could look in and see that there was no one there.
 08      Q    Did you see any -- did you look to see whether
 09 there was any signs of struggle or violence that
 10 occurred in there?
 11      A    There didn't appear to be in that area of the
 12 house, no.
 13      Q    Now, why was it that you asked to go into the
 14 house to check on the whereabouts of the defendant?
 15      A    To try and find out if he was in the house or
 16 if the maid was in the house or if anybody was in the
 17 house.
 18      Q    But you received no response when you called
 19 the phone and rang the bell on the intercom.
 20           Didn't that tell you that he certainly was not
 21 at home and the maid was not at home?
 22      A    No, no, not at all.
 23           Going back, again, we had knowledge that
 24 Westec had no prior knowledge that there was any travel
 25 plans.   We had knowledge that there was supposed to be
 26 a live-in maid.
 27           We had just come from a very violent murder
 28 scene.   We see what we believe to be blood.   We could
 01 have had a second murder scene there or we could have
 02 had someone injured there.   We needed to check that.
 03      Q    So you were inside the house with Arnelle
 04 after seeing the maid's room.
 05           What did you do next?
 06      A    She came back into the kitchen area where my
 07 partner and detective Phillips was and there was -- this
 08 is all happening very quickly.
 09           She -- I believe she told detective Phillips
 10 that she could find out her father's location by calling
 11 his office.   They would always know where he was at.
 12 And she placed a phone call.
 13      Q    Now, while she was placing that phone call,
 14 where were you?
 15      A    I had moved back toward the back of the
 16 house.   I was intending on going out to look around the
 17 grounds.
 18      Q    What for?
 19      A    To see if there was anybody hurt or injured
 20 there.
 21      Q    Where were the other detectives?
 22      A    Detective Lange was with detective Phillips,
 23 and detective Fuhrman was -- I still -- I believe still
 24 in the back with Brian Kato.
 25      Q    Now, you say Detective Lange and detective
 26 Phillips.
 27           Where were they?
 28      A    They were in the kitchen area with Arnelle
 01 Simpson.
 02      Q    With Arnelle.
 03           Did you search the house?
 04      A    I briefly looked as I moved back toward the
 05 back.   I didn't see anything unusual in that portion of
 06 the house.
 07           And shortly thereafter, detective Fuhrman came
 08 to me and says, "hey, you've got to talk to" -- he was
 09 calling him Kato, Brian Kaelin.   "Listen to what he has
 10 to say."
 11      Q    When I say did you search the house, did you
 12 go upstairs, look around?
 13      A    No, no.
 14      Q    Did you go into the den area or the living
 15 room areas or the dining room areas?
 16      A    I could see the majority of the downstairs of
 17 the house from where I was at.
 18      Q    Did you go look under cushions or in cabinets
 19 or --
 20      A    No.
 21      Q    -- Linen closets?
 22      A    No.
 23      Q    As you -- so the nature of your search --
 24 quote, unquote -- was that you walked to the back of the
 25 house and looked around to make sure you saw no one.
 26      A    Exactly.   I was looking for people, not other
 27 things.
 28      Q    People, not evidence.
 01      A    Yeah.
 02      Q    Were you present in the house while Arnelle
 03 made the phone call to try and locate her father?
 04      A    I believe at that point when she was making
 05 the phone call is when I started walking toward the back
 06 and was shortly thereafter approached by detective
 07 Fuhrman who directed me to sit down at the bar area and
 08 talk to Kato.
 09      Q    And did you do that?
 10      A    Yes, I did.
 11      Q    What did Kato tell you?
 12      A    Well, prior to that, detective Fuhrman had
 13 told me that Kato had told him that he'd heard a very
 14 loud noise on the south side of his room, and that he
 15 was going to go back there and check and see if
 16 everything was okay.  And he told me, "ask him, or have
 17 him tell you about this noise that he heard."
 18           And I sat down there and talked with him, and
 19 he told me that evening he had heard a very loud
 20 thumping noise outside, that he had thought it was an
 21 earthquake, and it had actually moved a picture on the
 22 wall of his room.
 23      Q    Having heard that, what did you think?
 24      A    Well, again, I had the same suspicion.   It's
 25 very unusual to hear loud thumping noises outside your
 26 bedroom.
 27           I thought possibly somebody was hurt or
 28 somebody was down out there, and that's why detective
 01 Fuhrman was going to that location to check.
 02      Q    At that point when you sat down and talked to
 03 Kato, had contact, to your knowledge, yet been made with
 04 the defendant?
 05      A    I believe it was being made at that point.
 06      Q    Were you privy to that conversation?
 07      A    No, I was not.
 08      Q    And when I say "that conversation," I mean
 09 between the detectives and the defendant.
 10      A    No, I was not.
 11      Q    At the point that you spoke to Kato, what were
 12 your concerns?
 13      A    My concerns that -- again, knowing all the
 14 information I knew, my concern was that someone was
 15 hurt, someone had been killed, someone had been injured
 16 at that location.
 17      Q    After receiving that information from Kato,
 18 what happened next?
 19      A    Well, while I talked with Kato in the bar
 20 area, which is to the rear of the house -- there was a
 21 bar area set up -- within probably 10 to 15 minutes,
 22 detective Fuhrman came to me and said, "you've got to
 23 come with me and see this," and he led me to the south
 24 side of the house.
 25      Q    Detective Fuhrman did that?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    Do you know whether before he took you outside
 28 you saw him leave the house with anyone else?
 01      A    Detective Fuhrman?
 02      Q    Yes.
 03      A    The last time I saw detective Fuhrman he was
 04 by himself.
 05      Q    Then you were not privy to his movements, I
 06 take it?
 07      A    No.
 08      Q    Okay.
 09           Where did he take you?
 10      A    Do you want me to show you with the pointer?
 11      Q    Sure.   On the defense diagram?
 12      A    Yes.
 13           He took me from the back area of the house,
 14 around the north side, crossed the front and into a
 15 small walkway on the south side of the residence, which
 16 would be the common wall that connects the main
 17 residence with the guest house residence on the south
 18 side -- on the south side here.
 19      Q    He didn't take you out the front door?
 20      A    You know, I believe you're right.   I believe
 21 he did take me through the house and out the front door,
 22 now that I think about it.
 23           There was a lot of movement going on, but I
 24 think you're right.   I think we walked from the back
 25 through the front door and then came around.
 26      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, I'm going to object to
 27 the form of the question.   It clearly obviously was
 28 leading and suggestive.
 01           The officer now is saying, "yes, you're
 02 right."   He's referring to the leading and suggestive
 03 nature.   It's totally improper, should not have been
 04 asked, and the answer should be stricken.
 05      THE COURT:  Overruled.
 06      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, I think a simple  --
 07      THE COURT:  Overruled, Ms. Clark.
 08      MS. CLARK:  All right.
 09      THE COURT:  We are going to take the morning break
 10 at this time -- it is a little after 10:15 -- for 15
 11 minutes.
 12           I remind you, please do not discuss your
 13 testimony with anyone.
 14           And we'll continue in 15 minutes.
 17   (At 10:17 a.m., a recess was taken until 10:38 a.m.)
 20      THE COURT:  All right.   We're once again on the
 21 record in the case of People versus Simpson.
 22           The defendant is present with counsel.
 23 The people are represented.
 24           Detective Vannatter is on the witness stand.
 25           I remind you, you are still under oath.
 26      THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honor.
 27      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark?
 28      MS. CLARK:  Yes.   May I interrupt very briefly.
 01           I just received the curriculum vitae on the
 02 expert witness we are going to be calling on the blood
 03 work, Greg Matheson, and I am handing it to defense
 04 counsel right now.
 06                    Philip Vannatter,
 07 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
 08 having been previously called and duly sworn, resumed
 09 the stand and testified further as follows:
 11              DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)
 14      Q    Detective Vannatter, you indicated you went to
 15 the south side of the property with detective Fuhrman
 16 and you indicated on the diagram.
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    And what did you find there?
 19      A    Detective Fuhrman pointed out a man's leather
 20 glove to me.
 21      Q    Showing you the exhibit that's marked as
 22 People's 9 for identification, can you tell me if you
 23 recognize what's being shown in these photographs?
 24      A    Yes, I recognize that.
 25      Q    What?
 26      A    That's the walkway along the south side of the
 27 residence that has a chain link fence as a property
 28 boundary, and the 'C', 'D', and 'E' represent the glove
 01 that was lying on the walkway.
 02      Q    And does that represent -- do those pictures
 03 in 'C' and 'D' depict the original condition in which
 04 that glove was found?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    And location?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    Was that glove significant to you?
 09      A    Yes, it was.
 10      Q    Why?
 11      A    It appeared -- it was a right-handed
 12 leather -- brown leather glove that appeared to be a
 13 match of the left-handed glove that I had seen at the
 14 original crime scene.
 15      Q    Now, after you saw that glove -- excuse me,
 16 strike that.
 17           You were with detective Fuhrman when you saw
 18 that glove, is that what you said?
 19      A    Yes, he took me back there.
 20      Q    Did you walk back out with him?
 21      A    I believe I did.   He went to get, I believe,
 22 detective Lange or detective Phillips, also to show it
 23 to them.
 24      Q    So he took each of you back there to show the
 25 glove?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    Now by the time you saw the glove, sir --
 28 well, let me ask you this.
 01           Can you point out the route you took back
 02 after you saw the glove?
 03      A    After I saw the glove?
 04      Q    Right.   After you saw the glove, where did
 05 you go?
 06      A    Yes.   I came from the location back in here,
 07 I came back into the front and onto the driveway.   Out
 08 in here (indicating).
 09      Q    When you arrived at the location of 360
 10 Rockingham, can you describe what the lighting
 11 conditions were?   In the sky, I mean, not the house.
 12      A    When I first arrived there?
 13      Q    Yes.
 14      A    It was dark.
 15      Q    By the time you had seen the glove and come
 16 back onto the driveway, what was the lighting like?
 17      A    It was pretty light by then.   It had began
 18 to -- dawn had broken.   It was light.
 19      Q    In that growing light, were you able to make
 20 any further observations?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    What did you see?
 23      A    I saw originally a blood -- what appeared to
 24 be a blood droplet in the driveway.  And I walked west
 25 in the driveway and observed several others that
 26 appeared to be leading from the area of where the car
 27 was parked.
 28      Q    And by "the car," you mean  --
 01      A    The Ford Bronco.
 02      Q    And the blood drops, where did they appear to
 03 be leading from the Ford Bronco?
 04      A    To the front door of the residence.
 05      Q    Showing you what's been marked as People's 8,
 06 do you recognize what's being shown in this
 07 photograph -- these photographs, excuse me.
 08      A    Yes, I do.
 09      Q    I'm directing your attention specifically now
 10 to 'D', 'E' and 'F'.
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    What's being shown there?
 13      A    Those are droplets of a red stain, ultimately
 14 determined to be blood, that were found in the driveway
 15 of the Simpson home.
 16      Q    Showing you also a series of photographs that
 17 have been marked as People's 6, do you recognize what's
 18 being shown in these photographs?
 19      A    Yes, I do.
 20      Q    I'm directing specifically your attention,
 21 sir, to photographs 'D', 'E' and 'F'.
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    What's being shown there?
 24      A    That shows the driveway leading from
 25 Rockingham Avenue to the front door of the residence.
 26      Q    And do you see little -- let me hold this for
 27 the court.
 28      MS. CLARK:  It might help you to see, Your Honor.
 01      THE COURT:  Thank you.
 03      Q    In 'D', 'E' and 'F' I see little -- what
 04 appear to be little pieces of paper.
 05      A    Um-hum, yes.
 06      Q    What are those?
 07      A    Those are identification numbers that are
 08 completed and placed there by the criminalist at my
 09 direction to photograph and show the location of the
 10 blood droplets.
 11      Q    So those tags Mark where blood droplets were
 12 found?
 13      A    That's correct, yes.
 14      Q    If you know, sir, what time was it when you
 15 made the observation of those blood droplets in the
 16 driveway after you'd just seen the glove?
 17      A    I -- again, I would have to estimate that.   I
 18 believe it was around 6:45 or so in the morning.
 19      Q    Now, backing up for a moment, at the time just
 20 prior to the glove being found, what was -- what were
 21 you trying to do?   What was your state of mind with
 22 respect to what you were doing there at 360 Rockingham
 23 just before the glove was found?
 24      A    We were there to insure that all the occupants
 25 were safe, that a notification was made of the death of
 26 Nicole Brown, and that a disposition was made for the
 27 children that we had.
 28      Q    And to that end, I think you indicated before
 01 you were trying to locate the defendant?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    What steps did you take to locate the
 04 defendant while you were inside the residence?
 05      A    I looked around the bottom area of the home.
 06 And at that time telephone calls were being made, and
 07 during that period of time I was informed that -- I
 08 believe by my partner -- that Mr. Simpson had been
 09 located in Chicago.
 10      Q    Now, when that was going on, what were you
 11 doing?
 12      A    I was between the kitchen area and the bar
 13 area with Kato.
 14      Q    So this was a kind of -- all these events were
 15 kind of happening at once?
 16      A    Yes.   We were actually spread out.   We were
 17 not all together all the time.   And all these things
 18 are happening all at the same time.   They were not a
 19 sequence of events but a conglomeration of events that
 20 was occurring.
 21      Q    So while you were doing one thing, the other
 22 detectives were doing other things, and you were kind of
 23 all working at the same time?
 24      A    Exactly.
 25      Q    After you saw the glove and on your way back
 26 saw the blood drops, then what was your state of mind
 27 with respect to what you had to do there at 360
 28 Rockingham?
 01      A    My -- knowing at that point that Mr. Simpson
 02 was in Chicago, failing to find any evidence of any
 03 forced entry or anybody injured or hurt at the location,
 04 I then changed -- I began to feel that I had a scene
 05 there that was connected to the crime scene at 875 south
 06 Bundy.
 07      Q    And in that regard, what did you do?
 08      A    I instructed detective Fuhrman and other
 09 personnel at the scene there that this was now a
 10 protected scene, that it needed to be protected for
 11 investigation, and that I was going to secure a search
 12 warrant for the residence.
 13      Q    Now, had the criminalist arrived yet?
 14      A    No.
 15      Q    So you had already secured the location for
 16 the purpose of securing a search warrant before the
 17 criminalist got there.
 18      A    Yes.   I did not leave the location at that
 19 point.   I waited for the arrival of the chemist (sic)
 20 for a couple of reasons.
 21           I wanted to be sure that what I was seeing was
 22 blood, and I wanted to be sure that the evidence was
 23 protected, and in the Los Angeles Police Department at
 24 murder scenes or crime scenes, criminalists collect and
 25 protect the evidence.
 26      Q    And that glove that you saw on the south side
 27 of the property that you've earlier identified in the
 28 photographs, were you concerned about loss of evidence
 01 on that glove?
 02      A    Oh, definitely.   The glove was in the
 03 elements, was outside.   There could possibly be trace
 04 evidence on it, fiber, hair, what have you.
 05           Also, there was an animal, a dog, running
 06 loose on the residence lawn.   And I wanted to make sure
 07 that it was protected before I left that scene.
 08      Q    Now, before -- excuse me, strike that.
 09           While all this was going on, do you know where
 10 Arnelle was?
 11      A    I believe she was in the house.
 12      Q    Was there still some effort being made at that
 13 time, if you know, to help the children be placed
 14 somewhere?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    Did the children ever arrive at the residence?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    Do you recall when?
 19      A    I believe it would have been prior to 7:30,
 20 because that's when I asked for the place to be
 21 secured.   Totally secured.
 22      Q    When you say "totally secured," then what do
 23 you mean by that?
 24      A    I asked Arnelle and a friend of her's, Al
 25 Cowlings, that she had called to help her pick up the
 26 children, if there was a place that they could go away
 27 from the residence to eliminate any possible
 28 contamination of any evidence that may be in the house,
 01 and they said yes.
 02           And at that point I asked them if they would
 03 mind doing that, and they said no.
 04      Q    Do you know when -- so did -- strike that.
 05           Do you know if Mr. Cowlings came and brought
 06 the children with him to 360 Rockingham?
 07      A    No.   I believe the sequence of events on that
 08 is, I believe a phone call was made to Mr. Cowlings
 09 after notification had been made to Mr. Simpson, who
 10 instructed, I believe my partner, to release the
 11 children to his daughter Arnelle Simpson.
 12           I believe she called Mr. Cowlings and he
 13 responded and took her to West L.A. to pick up the
 14 children.
 15      Q    What time did you leave the residence to
 16 secure -- to obtain a search warrant, sir?
 17      A    Approximately 7:30.
 18      Q    At what point did you secure the house for the
 19 purpose of obtaining that search warrant?
 20      A    Just prior to that I asked them to leave,
 21 asked them if they had a place to go to.
 22           I had the evidence protected earlier than that
 23 outside.   In fact, I believe the criminalist arrived
 24 there shortly after 7:00 o'clock, and I showed him the
 25 physical evidence outside and left him instructions that
 26 it was to be protected, marked and photographed.  And
 27 that the fact that there was a dog running loose on the
 28 compound, so to be very careful to protect the evidence.
 01      Q    So let me ask you this.
 02           What was the time frame between seeing the
 03 glove and the blood drops in the driveway also and then
 04 securing the house for a search warrant?
 05      A    It was not a long time.   I would say no more
 06 than 30 minutes total.
 07      Q    Could be less?
 08      A    It could be, yes.
 09      Q    Were you looking at your watch to time every
 10 event that occurred?
 11      A    No.
 12      Q    So are the times you're giving us estimates?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    Okay.   To the best of your knowledge, sir,
 15 when you secured the house -- when you made the
 16 determination to secure the house, was A.C. Cowlings
 17 already there or did he come up later?   If you know.
 18      A    He was there because I spoke with him.
 19      Q    Do you recall seeing any children in the house
 20 before you -- before you decided to secure the house for
 21 a search warrant?
 22      A    No.   I recall seeing the children leave, but
 23 I didn't see them prior, I don't think.
 24      Q    You saw them leave from where?
 25      A    From the home there.
 26      Q    Oh, you did.
 27           You mean from 360 Rockingham?
 28      A    Yes, that's correct.
 01      Q    Who was taking them out?
 02      A    A.C. Cowlings, or Al Cowlings and Arnelle
 03 Simpson.
 04      Q    But you didn't see how they got to the home.
 05      A    No.
 06      Q    And that's when they were leaving pursuant to
 07 your request so that you could secure the house for the
 08 search warrant?
 09      A    Yes, that's correct.
 10      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 11      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 12      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you very much, Your Honor.
 14                    CROSS-EXAMINATION
 17      Q    Good afternoon, Detective Vannatter -- or good
 18 morning.   Good mid morning.   We haven't taken our
 19 afternoon break.
 20      A    Good morning, Mr. Shapiro.
 21      Q    Detective Vannatter, with your experience as a
 22 Los Angeles police officer, are you one of the more
 23 senior detectives in your unit?
 24      A    Yeah, I believe only my partner has more time
 25 than I do in our unit, yes.
 26      Q    So between the two of you, you are the two
 27 most senior ranking people in homicide in the
 28 Los Angeles Police Department; isn't that correct?
 01      A    No.   In our unit.
 02      Q    As far as detectives in your homicide unit.
 03      A    Yes, in our 12-man unit, yes.
 04      Q    And your unit is the special unit?
 05      A    It's named homicide special section, yes.
 06      Q    And it's special because you investigate
 07 special situations?
 08      A    We investigate certain type cases, yes.
 09      Q    That are somehow defined as special?
 10      A    Well, that's not always the case,
 11 Mr. Shapiro.   A lot of times we handle any type of
 12 case.  If there's an overload at one of the areas and
 13 they need help, we go pick up their cases too.   So
 14 that's not totally true.
 15      Q    All right.   But in general you told us if
 16 there is a serial murder, that would come to your
 17 special unit.
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    And if there was a high profile person who was
 20 involved in a murder, that would come to your unit.
 21      A    Most likely, yes.
 22      Q    And if there were murders of prominent
 23 political people, that would come to your unit.
 24      A    Yes, most likely.
 25      Q    What other types of things would come to your
 26 unit that would be categorized as special, not overflow?
 27      A    Very, very involved cases that the homicide
 28 detectives at the divisional level don't have the proper
 01 time or manpower to investigate those type cases.
 02      Q    So you get resources and time above and beyond
 03 what detectives in the substations get.
 04      A    I don't know that we -- I don't believe
 05 that -- half of that statement is probably true.   We
 06 probably have more time than the average detective.   I
 07 don't believe we have any more resources than anybody on
 08 the department would have.
 09      Q    All right.
 10           Let's for a minute focus on the resources that
 11 you have out of your unit.
 12      A    Okay.
 13      Q    You were familiar with the time Mr. Simpson
 14 surrendered with Mr. Cowlings to the Los Angeles Police
 15 Department on Friday, were you not?
 16      A    Yes, I was.
 17      Q    And  --
 18      A    When he surrendered?
 19      Q    Well, he came back to the Rockingham house,
 20 did he not?
 21      A    I'm familiar when he was taken into custody,
 22 that's correct.
 23      Q    And when he was taken into custody, did he in
 24 fact surrender to the police?
 25      A    Well, I don't know.   I wasn't at the scene.
 26 I know he was taken into custody, though.
 27      Q    Are you aware of what took place at the scene?
 28      A    I believe, yes.
 01      Q    And at the scene, how many members of the
 02 Los Angeles Police Department were there?
 03      A    I don't know, Mr. Shapiro.
 04      Q    What would be your estimate?
 05      A    There were quite a few.   I don't know.
 06      Q    More than 10?
 07      A    Oh, I would say so, yes.
 08      Q    More than 20?
 09      A    I don't know.   I don't honestly know.
 10      Q    As the senior ranking detective in charge of
 11 this case, you oversee all aspects of this case, do you
 12 not?
 13      A    We have a hand in all aspects of it.
 14 However, that situation that you're talking about there
 15 is a tactical field situation that is handled by field
 16 supervisors, not by detectives.   That would have been
 17 handled by someone else.
 18      Q    Let me just ask you generally, in terms of
 19 your observations and in terms of your knowledge as to
 20 how the police department works.
 21           If it was reported that there were in excess
 22 of 100 police officers there, would you say that would
 23 be a fair reporting?
 24      MS. CLARK:  I'm going to object to the relevancy of
 25 this line of questioning.
 26      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 27      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, may I just be heard on
 28 that?
 01      THE COURT:  All right.
 02      MR. SHAPIRO:  This is very, very important
 03 foundationally to show resources that are available in
 04 emergency -- an emergency situation, and resources that
 05 are available to this detective and resources that were
 06 used at the time that he was dealing with the situation
 07 on Rockingham.
 08      MS. CLARK:  Same objection, Your Honor.
 09      THE COURT:  The objection is sustained,
 10 Mr. Shapiro, as to the number of officers that were
 11 present at the Friday night incident.
 12      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 14      Q    I take it that you have special training to
 15 have the classification of being a special unit
 16 detective?
 17      A    No, I  -- no, I don't think that's necessarily
 18 true.   I think that's based on a person's work history
 19 and experience.
 20      Q    What about special abilities?
 21      A    I would not be the one to ask that question,
 22 if I have special abilities.
 23      Q    Well, I don't want you to be modest.
 24      A    I take a lot of pride in my job, Mr. Shapiro,
 25 yes.
 26      Q    And you wouldn't be in that important position
 27 if you didn't have the credentials, the experience, the
 28 knowledge and the background to have such an important
 01 detective job, would you?
 02      A    That's probably true, yes.
 03      Q    And as such, you are familiar, are you not,
 04 with the procedures that are mandated by the Los Angeles
 05 Police Department for investigative techniques in
 06 homicide cases, are you not?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    Are you familiar with a Los Angeles Police
 09 Department chronological record form 3.11.6?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    And is that something that is used to record
 12 in-depth the chronological record of the investigation
 13 in a homicide case?
 15 \ \
 01      Q    And is that something that is used to report in
 02 depth the chronological record of the investigation in a
 03 homicide case?
 04      A    the chronological record is a record that is
 05 used as time permits to make a chronological entry on a
 06 log as to activities that have taken place in that
 07 investigation.
 08      Q    And doesn't that form require the reporting of
 09 the dates and times of the initial notification and of all
 10 investigative contacts and processes?
 11      A    It would be impossible to list all investigative
 12 dates and processes.
 13      Q    My question is --
 14      A    the majority --
 15      Q    -- Isn't that what the manual you are trained
 16 under and the policy requires.
 17      A    Again, it may state that; however, that record is
 18 used as time permits in an investigation to record
 19 functions and activities that have occurred in that
 20 investigation.
 21      Q    My question is does it state that.
 22      A    I don't know the exact WORDING.
 23      Q    Do you have form 3.11.16 that you used in this
 24 case?
 25      A    I believe my partners kept a chronological record
 26 on just regular paper.  I don't think we have a
 27 chronological record in the case.
 28      Q    Would you take a moment to review your materials
 01 and see if you have such a record.
 02      A    I think I just answered that.  I believe my
 03 partner kept a chronological record on regular white paper
 04 instead of using the form because the form wasn't available
 05 when we first started the case; We didn't have it in our
 06 possession.
 07      Q    You say you think.
 08           Would it help you to refresh your memory --
 09      A    I know he has, Mr. Shapiro.
 10      Q    You know you don't have this?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    So the chronological record was kept by your
 13 partner on a piece of blank paper?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      MS. CLARK:  Again, objection.  irrelevant.  What does
 16 this have to do with a motion to suppress?
 17      The COURT:  I assume we are heading in that
 18 direction.
 19      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, we are, your Honor.
 20      the COURT:  Do you want to make an offer of proof as
 21 to this chronological record as it relates to this motion?
 22      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 23           We will show improper procedures were followed
 24 from the very beginning of this investigation until the
 25 time that detective Vannatter has testified; that proper
 26 forms and procedures as outlined by the Los Angeles police
 27 department have not been followed; that times, dates and
 28 records of events that should be recorded are not
 01 recorded.  And, quite frankly, your Honor, this will go to
 02 the credibility of detective Vannatter and his testimony
 03 here today.
 04      MS. CLARK:  May I be heard, your Honor?
 05      The COURT:  Yes.
 06      MS. CLARK:  I fail to see how the use of a particular
 07 form or the use of a blank page in lieu of that form have
 08 anything to do with the propriety of the officers' conduct
 09 in searching the residence at 360 Rockingham.  I'm sorry,
 10 your Honor.  I just don't see the connection.
 11           The officers used what they could at the time
 12 that they could under a pressing need and an urgent
 13 situation.  the issue is was the information required to be
 14 recorded on the chronological record recorded in some
 15 manner, not whether they used a form that was preprinted or
 16 not; and I'm sorry, your Honor, but I just can't see the
 17 relevance of this line of questioning to whether or not
 18 proper procedures were followed with respect to the
 19 decision to go over the wall and do a cursory search of the
 20 grounds.
 21      the COURT:  With reference to the utilization of
 22 specific LAPD forms or procedures that don't present
 23 constitutional issues, i really don't see the relevance of
 24 whether every "I" was dotted and every "T" was crossed;
 25 However, with regard to whether there is impeaching
 26 information within or missing from some of these records,
 27 there could indeed be some relevance.
 28           I am just, I guess, going to have to hear on a
 01 question by question -- you make the appropriate
 02 objections, and I will make the appropriate rulings.
 03      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, your Honor.
 05      Q    Have you reviewed a chronological record that was
 06 done by your partner?
 07      A    No.
 08      Q    Would you take a moment, please.  Please look at
 09 that, please.
 10      A    Certainly.
 11      Q    Do you have one available?
 12      A    No.  My partner has the books in the hallway.
 13      Q    Maybe the district attorney --
 14      A    If we could get them from him.
 15      Q    Or maybe the district attorney might have a copy
 16 here.
 17      A    That is a possibility.
 18      Q    Detective Vannatter, are you familiar with
 19 something known as a homicide book or, in the vernacular, a
 20 murder book?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    And is that something that is routinely prepared
 23 by the Los Angeles police department?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    And, as part of that murder book, the
 26 chronological record?
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    Do you know where to find the chronological
 01 record in the murder book?
 02      A    Yes; in section 1.
 03      Q    Would you look for that, please.
 04      A    Okay.
 05      Q    Have you located the chronological record?
 06      A    Yes, I sure have.
 07      Q    How many pages does it consist of?
 08      A    Seven to date.
 09      Q    Seven to date?
 10      A    Yeah.
 11           Six and three-quarters to date.
 12      Q    And by policy, there is to be a chronological
 13 record for each crime scene; is that correct?
 14      A    No.  there's normally one chronological record
 15 kept for the case.
 16      Q    For the case?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    So that would include the crime scene at Bundy?
 19      A    Yes.
 20      Q    What you later found to be the crime scene at
 21 Rockingham?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    And the crime scene in chicago?
 24      A    Well, that was a separate investigation.  We were
 25 not privy to what was going on in chicago.
 26      Q    You didn't have any detectives there?
 27      A    We did, but we were not personally involved in
 28 that.  We had no information at that time what was going
 01 on.
 02      Q    When you say you were not privy to it, the
 03 chicago police department didn't tell the LAPD what was
 04 going on in chicago?
 05      A    No.
 06           You are asking a question -- may I explain the
 07 question?
 08      Q    No.  You can answer my question.
 09      MS. CLARK:  Objection, your Honor.  the witness
 10 should be allowed to explain his answer, especially
 11 because he is being questioned as an expert in his
 12 field.
 13      the COURT:  I think he is trying to give an answer,
 14 But I don't think you are going to try to explain
 15 Mr. Shapiro's question.
 16      THE WITNESS:  No.  I am going to try to explain the
 17 answer to his question.
 19      Q    That we would like.
 20      A    We have a 2,000-mile separation.  We have
 21 detectives with instructions to go to chicago and complete
 22 an investigation.  While my partner and myself are working
 23 here in los angeles, we do not have a constant
 24 communication with the detectives back there; So I would
 25 say I was not fully aware of everything that was going on
 26 back there.
 27      Q    Would you say that this is under your
 28 jurisdiction as part of your investigation, or is this not
 01 part of your investigation?
 02      A    It is part of the overall investigation of this
 03 homicide, yes.
 04      Q    And proper procedure for the Los Angeles police
 05 department to require a chronological record for that
 06 investigation?  Yes or no?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    Is there a chronological record for that
 09 investigation, or is that included in the seven pages?
 10      A    No.  I believe there is a separate record kept
 11 with the other investigation.
 12      Q    OKAY.
 13           And have you seen that?
 14      A    No.
 15      Q    Would you look for that, please.
 16      A    I don't have those books.  All I have is the
 17 investigation that has been going on in Los Angeles
 18 here.
 19      Q    You just said it would be proper for the
 20 Los Angeles police department to have a chronological
 21 record.
 22           My question is is there such a record.  And if
 23 there is, would you show it to us, please.
 24      MS. CLARK:  Again, I am going to object.  This is form
 25 over substance.  We are still talking about whether forms
 26 were used and certain forms were filled out and who is
 27 keeping them.  This has nothing to do with urgent
 28 conditions and whether to go over a wall or not go over a
 01 wall.
 02      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I be heard?
 03      The COURT:  Let me state one thing, Mr. Shapiro.
 04           I recall at least at some point during this
 05 proceeding a large envelope being handed to you by
 06 Miss Clark and a statement by Miss Clark, "this relates to
 07 chicago."  I don't recall exactly when that was, but it was
 08 during the course of this.  And if there are discovery
 09 issues to take up, I am willing to do it if it is
 10 necessary; But I don't think it is necessary to do it in
 11 the course of this particular motion.
 12      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, may I be heard briefly?
 13      The COURT:  Yes.
 14      MR. SHAPIRO:  This is not a discovery proceeding,
 15 clearly.  This is a proceeding to determine the truth of
 16 the testimony from the witness stand.  What we want to
 17 establish is -- if there was a chronological record done,
 18 perhaps we haven't seen it; We would like to see it.
 19           If all they have is the seven pages, we would
 20 like to establish that because we believe through
 21 impeachment we will show that the testimony given from the
 22 witness stand is not true.
 23      the COURT:  Well, Mr. Shapiro, the total chicago
 24 chronology, whether it exists or doesn't exist, I just
 25 don't see it is relevant to this particular proceeding.
 26      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, your Honor.
 27      Q    Detective, regarding the seven-page chronology
 28 you have, that should, according to your policy, include
 01 the dates and times of all investigative contacts and
 02 processes; is that correct?
 03      A    If that's -- if that's physically possible to do,
 04 yes.
 05      Q    So you would expect to find in there what took
 06 place when you went to Rockingham; is that correct?
 07      A    You would expect to find an entry there to
 08 indicate we were at Rockingham, yes.
 09      Q    Could you expect to find an entry as to the time
 10 you arrived at Rockingham?
 11      A    Isn't that noted?  I haven't looked.  I don't
 12 know whether that is noted or not.
 13      Q    I am just asking if you would expect to find
 14 that.  Yes or no?
 15      A    It could be there.  It could not been there.
 16      Q    I know it could or couldn't be there.  We all
 17 know that.  the question is would looking at it, sir --
 18 would you close the book, please.
 19      A    Certainly.
 20      Q    Would you expect to find it there?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    And would you expect to find there notations that
 23 this was an emergency situation?
 24      A    No.
 25      Q    Would you expect to find there that backup units
 26 were called if they were?
 27      A    Not necessarily.
 28      Q    Would you expect to find there that paramedics
 01 were called?
 02      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, again, same objection.
 03 This line of questioning is simply not relevant to a
 04 decision made under emergency conditions as to whether
 05 or not to go over a wall.
 06      the COURT:  the objection to this particular question
 07 is overruled.
 08      the WITNESS:  Would you expect to find notations
 09 that a paramedic unit was called?
 11      Q    Yes.
 12      A    Probably not.  You would probably find that
 13 under a section of the book that relates to ambulance
 14 information.
 15      Q    Would you expect to find notations that you
 16 notified communications that you were at another location?
 17      A    Not necessarily.
 18      Q    I am asking would you expect to find that.
 19      A    Not necessarily.
 20      Q    You may or you may not?
 21      A    exactly.
 22      Q    Are you familiar with a los angeles police
 23 department follow-up report?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    After you go to a crime scene, if there are
 26 additional factors that are not included because of time
 27 constraints in the initial report, you do a follow-up
 28 report; is that correct?
 01      MS. CLARK:  Again, your Honor, I am going to object
 02 as irrelevant.
 03      the COURT:  Overruled.
 04      the WITNESS:  A follow-up is done, in general terms,
 05 to attempt to explain what has happened.  It is not a
 06 detailed description of the entire case.
 08      Q    An attempt to explain what has happened.
 09           Let me ask you this.
 10           Did you file an initial report outlining what you
 11 have testified here today in an official -- on an official
 12 LAPD form?
 13      MS. CLARK:  Same objection, your Honor.
 14           What does it matter whether it is filed on an
 15 official form or whether the information is contained on a
 16 blank piece of paper?  the issue is what information and
 17 what decisions were made and why they were made.
 18           This line of questioning is going to minutia as
 19 to whether a form was used or whether a blank piece of
 20 paper was used.  I don't see the relevance.
 21      the COURT:  is the import of your question whether a
 22 specific form was made or whether, in fact, a report was
 23 prepared?
 24      MR. SHAPIRO:  the import is clearly whether a
 25 report was made.
 26      the COURT:  Objection overruled.
 27           You may answer the question.
 28      the WITNESS:  A follow-up report was prepared.
 02      Q    Was an initial report prepared?
 03      A    I don't know what you mean by "an initial
 04 report."
 05           There was an initial death report and crime
 06 report that was filed.
 07      Q    I am saying an initial report of you and the
 08 three other detectives' activities at Rockingham.
 09           Did you file an initial report?
 10      A    No.
 11      Q    You filed a follow-up report?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    How much later did you file the follow-up report?
 14      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, objection.  Objection.
 15 Irrelevant.
 16           Whether reports were filed at certain times and
 17 what forms were used, how can that be relevant as to
 18 whether or not an appropriate decision was made under the
 19 circumstances to go over a wall?
 20      the COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, are you expecting to offer
 21 some sort of information from a report that is at odds with
 22 the testimony here?
 23      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, your Honor.
 24      the COURT:  So this is a foundation to that?
 25      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 26      the COURT:  All right.
 27           With that understanding, the objection is
 28 overruled.
 01 by mr. shapiro:
 02      Q    You did file a follow-up report; is that correct?
 03      A    My partner did, yes.
 04      Q    And when was that done?
 05      A    the date should be on the report.  I don't know
 06 exactly.
 07      Q    Have you seen the report?
 08      A    I have seen it, yes.
 09      Q    Did you participate in the writing of the report?
 10      A    No, I did not.
 11      Q    Did you give any information that was later
 12 contained in that report?
 13      A    I must have.  We talk all the time.
 14      Q    That's the purpose of the report, isn't it --
 15 what Vannatter did, what phillips did, what the four
 16 detectives did There?
 17           One person writes the report; is that correct?
 18      A    the purpose of the report is an overall view of
 19 the investigation.
 20      Q    Have you read that report for errors and
 21 omissions?
 22      A    I have read the report -- not recently.
 23      Q    When you read it, did you find any errors or
 24 omissions in the report?
 25      A    None that I recall.
 26      Q    If there were errors or omissions, as a
 27 detective, you would correct those with a supplemental
 28 report, would you not?
 01      A    If there were errors.
 02           I don't know what you mean by "omissions."
 03           Again, that is just a general, overall report
 04 that gives a general outline of the investigation.
 05      Q    Are you satisfied with the content of the report
 06 as far as accuracy and veracity regarding what transpired
 07 at Rockingham?
 08      A    Am I satisfied with it?
 09           I don't know what is contained in there regarding
 10 what occurred at Rockingham.  I am satisfied my partner did
 11 a comprehensive report, yes.
 12      Q    I thought you said you read it.
 13      A    I did read it; but, again, I haven't read it
 14 recently and I don't recall what is in the report.
 15      Q    Would you take a moment to read it and refresh
 16 your memory.
 17      A    Certainly.
 18      Q    How long is that report?  Do you know?
 19      A    I don't know.
 20           Okay.  Yes.  I am satisfied with what is in it.
 21      Q    In the report, in the third paragraph, it says
 22 upon arrival that you noticed a bronco and the vehicle was
 23 parked at an angle to the curb, with the rear end jutting
 24 out into the roadway.
 25      A    Okay.
 26      Q    Is that accurate?
 27      A    Yes.  the rear end was sticking out farther than
 28 the front end.
 01      Q    It says "into the roadway."
 02           What did you mean or what did your partner mean
 03 by that term?
 04      A    the vehicle was parked on the roadway.  Where it
 05 was parked was part of the roadway.  the rear end was
 06 sticking farther out into the roadway than the front.
 07      Q    How far was the rear sticking out further?
 08      A    I don't know.  I didn't measure it, sir.
 09      Q    Well, this was an important event for you, was it
 10 not?
 11      A    there were a lot of things occurring at that
 12 time.
 13           I didn't measure it, Mr. Shapiro.  I don't know
 14 how far out it was as compared to the front end.
 15      Q    But this was, you would agree, one of your very
 16 key, important observations --
 17      A    At that point --
 18      Q    -- That led you to go into the house, was it not?
 19      A    No.  It just appeared that the vehicle was parked
 20 unusual, like it had been parked in haste.  I wouldn't say
 21 that -- that was not the catalyst that caused me to go in.
 22      Q    if Detective Fuhrman said that was a very
 23 important aspect and caused him considerable consternation
 24 and led him, as one of the main ingredients, to go into the
 25 house, you would say he was wrong?
 26      A    No.
 27      MS. CLARK:  Objection.  Misstates the testimony.
 28      the COURT:  Sustained.
 02      Q    How long was the car at the scene before it was
 03 moved -- the bronco?
 04      A    I don't know.
 05      Q    Do you have any records to refresh your memory as
 06 to when it was towed?
 07      A    No, I don't.
 08           I might.  I don't know.  I could look in the book
 09 if you would like me to do that.
 10      Q    Would that be in the chronological log?
 11      A    No.  It would probably be under the "vehicle
 12 section" in there.  I don't know.  I could look and see.
 13      Q    Would you do that, please.
 14      A    Certainly.
 15           It would indicate on the vehicle report itself
 16 that the vehicle was removed at 1530 hours, 3:30 in the
 17 afternoon.
 18      Q    How many hours was it there from the time you
 19 made your initial observation until the time it was
 20 removed?
 21      A    Oh, it would have been sometime between 5 and
 22 5:30 in the morning until 3:30 in the afternoon.
 23      Q    Would that give you sufficient time to ask
 24 somebody to measure how far the rear of the car was out --
 25      A    I never did that, sir.
 26      Q    My question was --
 27      A    sure.  Absolutely.  I never did that, though.
 28      Q    I take it from your experience as a senior
 01 detective, when the criminalist came out, you would want
 02 him to photograph the car.
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    And you would want him to photograph the angle of
 05 the car?
 06      MS. CLARK:  Objection.
 07      the COURT:  Excuse me?
 08      MS. CLARK:  Objection.
 09           The manner in which the investigation was
 10 conducted in terms of the collection of the evidence has no
 11 bearing on the decision made to go over the wall.
 12           Same objection.  Irrelevant.
 13      the COURT:  Overruled.
 15      Q    the angle of the car would be something important
 16 for you to record with the criminalist?
 17      A    I had him photograph it.  Yes.
 18      Q    And you had him photograph it from a position
 19 where we could later review the angle of the car; is that
 20 correct?
 21      A    I wasn't there when the photographing was done.
 22      Q    You are in charge of this, aren't you?
 23      A    Well, I am one of the co-investigators.
 24           You are placing more importance on me than I
 25 have, Mr. Shapiro.  I wish I had that much importance.
 26      Q    Who is in charge of this investigation?
 27      A    Who is in charge of this investigation?
 28      Q    Yeah.  Who is in charge?
 01      A    the Los Angeles police department, where I work.
 02      Q    So willie Williams is in charge; is that correct?
 03      A    That would be the ultimate responsibility, yes.
 04      Q    And out in the field who was in charge?
 05      A    Myself and my partner.
 06      Q    And as far as collecting evidence, who is in
 07 charge?
 08      A    We direct the criminalist to do that.
 09      Q    And you direct the criminalist and photographer
 10 to take pictures, don't you?
 11      A    Exactly.
 12      Q    Did you direct the criminalist and photographer
 13 to take pictures of the Bronco?
 14      A    I was not there when that was done.
 15      Q    Did you ask them to do it?
 16      A    I asked the criminalist to have it photographed,
 17 yes.
 18      Q    Did you tell him why you wanted it photographed?
 19      A    Yes, I did.
 20      Q    Or did you just leave it up to the photographer
 21 to take some pictures, maybe take a picture of the tire,
 22 maybe take a picture of the gas tank?
 23      MS. CLARK:  Objection.  Argumentative.
 24      the COURT:  Sustained.
 26      Q    Isn't it somebody's job to tell someone what type
 27 of pictures they should take?
 28      A    they were told what type of pictures to take.
 01      Q    By whom?
 02      A    I told the criminalist.
 03      Q    And you have -- Thank you.
 04           And you have seen photographs of the bronco as
 05 they were taken by the criminalist?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    And do those accurately depict the position of
 08 the car when you arrived?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    they are not distorted in any way, are they?
 11      MS. CLARK:  Objection.  Calls for speculation.
 12           Let the witness see the pictures counsel is
 13 referring to.
 14      the COURT:  Sustained.
 16      Q    Have you seen the pictures?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    Are they --
 19      a    I can see the pictures right here.
 20      MS. CLARK:  For the record, the witness is referring
 21 to photograph "a" of People's --
 22      the court:  Is that People's 6?
 23      MS. CLARK:  6, your Honor.
 24      The COURT:  I believe so.
 26      Q    Have you seen any other photographs of the
 27 Bronco --
 28      MS. CLARK:  8.
 01      the COURT:  8.
 03      Q    -- in the position you observed it?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    You have seen those?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    They properly depict what you observed when you
 08 arrived?
 09      MS. CLARK:  Objection.  Vague.
 11      Q    Do they properly depict what you observed when
 12 you arrived?
 13      The COURT:  What photographs are you referring to?
 14      MR. SHAPIRO:  Any photographs.
 15           I asked him a Wide-open question:  "In the
 16 hundreds of photographs that were taken, have you seen any
 17 photographs of the bronco at the scene at Rockingham?"  He
 18 answered the question.
 19      Q    My question now is are those photographs accurate
 20 and do they depict -- any of these photographs depict what
 21 you observed when you arrived.
 22      MS. CLARK:  Again, objection.
 23           Counsel is attempting to ascertain, apparently,
 24 whether any of the photographs taken depict the angle at
 25 which the rear end was jutting out; and unless this witness
 26 is permitted to review all the photographs taken at this
 27 time, he is not going to be able to give an accurate
 28 answer.
 01           It is vague as to which photographs he is
 02 referring to.  there are numerous.
 03      the COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, I am not sure how many
 04 photographs we are referring to.  there have been a number
 05 of photographs that have been utilized during the course of
 06 this proceeding.
 07           If you are limiting your question to those that
 08 have been marked, that have been shown and that the witness
 09 can take a look at, I think that is a fair question; But
 10 just asking a question like the one you are asking with
 11 regard to photographs when the court doesn't know what you
 12 are referring to, I think it is just overbroad.
 13      MR. SHAPIRO:  the question is whether the witness
 14 does, your Honor; And my question to him is a simple one,
 15 whether any photographs were taken that accurately depict
 16 the vehicle at the time he arrived.
 17      MS. CLARK:  Well, that was not the question, your
 18 Honor.
 19      MR. SHAPIRO:  That will be a new question.
 20      the COURT:  Okay.
 21           You can answer that, if you are able to.
 22      the WITNESS:  So I understand the question, were there
 23 photographs taken that accurately depict --
 25      Q    the position of the bronco at the time you
 26 arrived at the scene.
 27      A    I would have to say yes.
 28      Q    Thank you.
 01           Now, in the murder follow-up report, in paragraph
 02 3, it says the following:  "peering into the locked
 03 vehicle's rear window, detectives observed a package with a
 04 label indicating a return address to O.J. Simpson
 05 enterprises.  A registration check of the vehicle revealed
 06 it to belong to hertz rental."
 07           is that correct?  those would be the observations
 08 that were made?
 09      A    Yes; among a number of other observations.
 10      Q    Where in this report does it say you or anybody
 11 else observed the shovel?
 12      A    it doesn't.
 13      Q    Where in this report does it say you or anyone
 14 else observed plastic?
 15      A    It doesn't, but I observed it in the back of the
 16 car.
 17      Q    That wasn't my question.
 18      A    I answered the question.  It doesn't, but I
 19 observed it in the car.
 20      MR. SHAPIRO:  Motion to strike the last part as
 21 nonresponsive.
 22      the COURT:  Sustained as to the last portion.
 24      Q    then it says, "upon closer observation of the
 25 vehicle, detectives observed what appeared to be human
 26 blood near the handle on the driver's door"; is that
 27 correct?
 28      A    If you are reading from the report, yes, that's
 01 correct.
 02      Q    And did you observe human blood?
 03      A    I observed what I thought was blood.  I thought
 04 it was human blood.
 05           If I can explain that.
 06      Q    No.  My question is did you observe human blood.
 07 Yes or no?
 08      A    What I believed to be human blood, yes.
 09      Q    You didn't put that in the report that you
 10 believed it to be human blood, did you?
 11      A    I didn't write the report.
 12           No.  I didn't put it in any report.
 13      Q    And can you determine the difference between
 14 animal blood and human blood?
 15      A    No; but based on my experience -- and I can
 16 explain that very easily if you want me to --
 17      Q    I don't want you to.  Maybe the people might want
 18 you to.  I want you to answer the questions I ask.
 19      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, this is unfair.  He is being
 20 questioned as an expert.  He is entitled to explain his
 21 answer.
 22      the COURT:  He does, though, have to answer the
 23 questions that are asked of him, Miss Clark.
 24           You will have a chance to question the witness
 25 further if you feel some additional explanation is
 26 warranted.
 27      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, your Honor.
 02      Q    Would you describe the size of the blood you saw.
 03      A    It was a small spot; a quarter, an eighth of an
 04 inch.
 05      Q    And did you look at it with the naked eye or some
 06 type of magnifying glass?
 07      A    My naked eye.
 08      Q    Did you use some type of light to illuminate it?
 09      A    flashlight, yes.
 10      Q    Do you wear glasses?
 11      A    I wear reading glasses, yes.
 12      Q    Did you use your glasses to look at this?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    And were you able to distinguish this from any
 15 other type of red stain, as being human blood?
 16      A    I believed it was blood.
 17      Q    I am saying -- my question was were you able to
 18 distinguish this from any other type of red stain?
 19      A    I believed it was a red stain and I believed it
 20 was blood.
 21      Q    What about at the bottom of the door?  Did you
 22 see any brush marks of what you believed to be blood?
 23      A    No.  I don't recall seeing that.
 24      Q    And that is not recorded anywhere in any of the
 25 reports, is that?
 26      A    I don't know.
 27      Q    And that wasn't called to your attention by
 28 anyone, was it?
 01      A    I don't recall seeing that.  I can't answer the
 02 question.
 03      Q    When you and the three other detectives went to
 04 Mr. O.J. Simpson's residence, did you inform the
 05 communications division of your intentions?
 06      A    I don't believe so.
 07           I didn't personally.
 08      Q    Did anyone, to your knowledge?
 09      A    No.
 10      Q    Is that standard procedure?
 11      A    I very seldom inform communications divisions of
 12 my movements.
 13      Q    I just asked you if that is standard procedure.
 14      MS. CLARK:  Objection.  That is irrelevant.
 15      the COURT:  Sustained.
 17      Q    If somebody told you from Bundy to take Bundy to
 18 sunset, take sunset towards the beach to Rockingham and
 19 turn right on Rockingham and go two blocks, could you
 20 follow those directions?
 21      A    Yeah.  I believe I could, yes.  Bundy makes a
 22 funny turn there; but, yes, I believe I could.
 23      Q    Could you follow that, funny turn or not?
 24      A    I think so, yes.
 25      MS. CLARK:  Objection.  Argumentative.
 26      the COURT:  Sustained.
 28      Q    Could you find sunset boulevard from where you
 01 were without any directions?
 02      A    From where I was on Bundy?
 03      Q    From the Bundy location, could you find sunset
 04 boulevard?
 05      A    Yes.  I worked that division for three years.
 06 Yes.
 07      Q    Was all your work completed at the crime scene by
 08 the time you left to go to the Rockingham address?
 09      A    No.
 10      Q    How many officers were at the crime scene that
 11 were higher ranking than you at the time you left?
 12      A    That were higher ranking than me?
 13      Q    Yes.
 14      A    I believe three.
 15      Q    Who were they?
 16      A    My lieutenant, john rogers, and, I believe, a
 17 lieutenant and captain from west Los Angeles division.
 18      Q    What are their names?
 19      A    I don't know.
 20      Q    Would you check the chronological record done by
 21 your partner and see if they were there at the time you
 22 left.
 23      MS. CLARK:  Objection.
 24           What is the relevance of who was present at the
 25 crime scene?
 26      The COURT:  Mr. Shapiro?
 27      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 28           This goes to credibility and impeachment.
 01           We are going to show that the four officers that
 02 were in charge of this crime scene left the crime scene
 03 within a very short period of time without properly
 04 preserving the crime scene, not to go to the Simpson
 05 residence because of an emergency but to go there because
 06 of the celebrity nature of Mr. Simpson.
 07      the COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, the specific names of the
 08 higher ranking officers that were present at the crime
 09 scene, I don't see that that's relevant.
 10      MR. SHAPIRO:  the question was was there anybody left
 11 there --
 12      the court:  the answer was there were three.
 14      Q    Would you check your chronological record to see
 15 if there were, in fact, three people higher ranking than
 16 you when you left the crime scene to go to Rockingham.
 17      MS. CLARK:  Same objection, your Honor.
 18      the COURT:  Sustained.
 20      Q    Did you leave somebody in charge of the crime
 21 scene when you left?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    Who did you leave in charge?
 24      A    My boss, lieutenant rogers.
 25      Q    Did you tell him what to do, or did he tell you
 26 what to do?
 27      A    We informed him that we were going to go up there
 28 to make a notification in an attempt to make a disposition
 01 for the children and to secure that crime scene and
 02 maintain the security with the uniformed officers that were
 03 there and we would be back.
 04      Q    So it was now his job to secure the crime scene,
 05 and you were going to make your notification and find
 06 someplace for the children to go?
 07      A    the crime scene was secured before I got there,
 08 hours before I ever got there; so it was under security the
 09 whole time.
 10      Q    You continued that security?
 11      A    exactly.
 12      Q    And then four detectives were going to go to make
 13 a notification?
 14      A    yes.
 15      Q    How many detectives does it take to make a
 16 notification?
 17      A    I don't know.  I think that would depend on the
 18 situation that you were in.
 19           I don't know.  One.  It could take ten if there
 20 were certain situations.
 21           I don't know.
 22      Q    In this particular situation, when you were going
 23 to O.J. Simpson's residence, how many detectives did you
 24 think were necessary to make the notification?
 25      A    myself and my partner went up there, and we were
 26 accompanied by detective Fuhrman and detective Phillips.
 27      Q    I know that is the fact.  My question is how many
 28 do you feel were necessary to go make the notification.
 01      A    I don't think I ever even considered that.
 02           How many do I think is necessary to make a
 03 notification?
 04      Q    YES.
 05      A    normally we go in pairs for a number of reasons.
 06 Number one, we have two people that are privy to the
 07 information plus for our own personal safety, we don't go
 08 places by ourselves.  So a minimum of two.  And the other
 09 two officers went with us, which is not unusual.
 10      Q    So four people to make a notification is your
 11 answer?
 12      A    No.  You didn't -- two.  the other two officers
 13 went with us, which is not unusual.
 14      Q    And of the four that went, they were the four
 15 highest ranking investigative detectives?
 16      A    No.
 17      Q    there were other detectives there who had been
 18 assigned to this case that had jobs that exceeded yours?
 19      A    I don't understand that.  I don't know what you
 20 mean.
 21      Q    OKAY.
 22           Were you primarily responsible for the
 23 investigation of the murder scene?
 24      A    Myself and my partner, yes.
 25      Q    Thank you.
 26           And you had relieved detective phillips and
 27 detective Vannatter?
 28      The COURT:  This is Vannatter.
 01      the WITNESS:  I didn't relieve myself.
 03      Q    You know, I am getting a little tired myself.
 04           You had relieved the two West L.A. detectives?
 05      A    they were assisting us.  We assumed
 06 responsibility; however, they assisted us and they still
 07 continue to assist us to this day.
 08      Q    Where were the children at the point in time you
 09 went to Mr. Simpson's residence?
 10      A    I was told they were at west Los Angeles division
 11 of the Los Angeles police department.
 12      Q    Does the Los Angeles police department have
 13 facilities or special people to deal with children in
 14 situations such as this?
 15      A    the Los Angeles police department has a juvenile
 16 division; however, I don't believe they would be working
 17 that time of the morning.
 18      Q    Does it have people who are specially trained in
 19 dealing with children, to care for their whereabouts, in
 20 the event of the unfortunate death or murder of a parent or
 21 parents?
 22      A    Again, they have juvenile officers that work
 23 nothing but juvenile.  I would say they are probably very
 24 competent in handling juveniles. But at that time of the
 25 day, I don't believe they would be working.
 26      Q    Did you check?
 27      A    Did I check?
 28      Q    Yes.
 01      A    No, I did not.
 02      Q    Did you check on the welfare and concerns for the
 03 children before you went to Rockingham?
 04      A    I spoke to detective phillips, who told me they
 05 had been taken from the location to west Los Angeles
 06 division, where they were being cared for.
 07      Q    And did you ask him if they were being properly
 08 cared for or if there was any real immediate concern for
 09 them, or were you really more concerned with your criminal
 10 investigation and you pursued --
 11      A    Well, I think -- being a father myself and being
 12 a grandfather, any time I deal with minor children and any
 13 kind of traumatic situation like this, I think they have to
 14 be attended to; and I had concern for those children
 15 because we are talking about a very traumatic thing to be
 16 taken out of your bed at midnight or 12:30 in the morning
 17 by the police in your home and removed from your home and
 18 taken to a police station.  That is a very traumatic
 19 thing.  And if it was my children or my grandchild, I would
 20 want whoever to be very, very interested in the welfare of
 21 that child.
 22      Q    I agree, and I hope --
 23      a    And I have that interest, believe me.
 24      Q    And I take it, in that regard, you would attempt,
 25 after you couldn't reach Mr. Simpson, immediately to notify
 26 the grandparents, who are really the next of kin?
 27      A    no.  the grandparents are not the next of kin.
 28 the father is the next of kin, and I think that is who I
 01 was trying to notify.
 02      Q    How about the next of kin of nicole, who was the
 03 victim of this murder?
 04      A    the next of kin were the parents.
 05      Q    What attempts did you make to notify them?
 06      A    I believe they were notified by telephone.
 07      Q    What attempts --
 08      a    I just said my partner notified them that morning
 09 by telephone.
 10      Q    What time?
 11      A    I don't know.
 12      Q    Do you have any records of that?
 13      A    I don't know.
 14           I don't think so.
 15      Q    Would that be in the murder book?
 16      A    I don't know.  there's a lot of information in
 17 here.  I don't know everything by heart that is in here.
 18      MS. CLARK:  For the record, the witness, when he said
 19 "in here," is referring to a binder that appears to be
 20 about 4 inches thick.
 21      the COURT:  All right.
 23      Q    Let me ask you a question.
 24           If Mr. Goldman had been the sole victim of this
 25 case under the same circumstances, would the same
 26 investigation be taking place?
 27      MS. CLARK:  Objection.  Irrelevant.
 28      the COURT:  Sustained.
 02      Q    I take it the same precautions also were taken to
 03 notify Mr. Goldman's next of kin?
 04      A    Once he was identified, yes.
 05      Q    Did somebody rush over to their house?
 06      A    I believe it was done by telephone, but I am not
 07 sure.
 08      Q    Of the four detectives that you had, did any of
 09 them phone Mr. Goldman's house?
 10      MS. CLARK:  Objection, your Honor.  Irrelevant with
 11 respect --
 12      the court:  Sustained.
 14      Q    When you got to the Simpson residence, you went
 15 to the buzzer?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    And upon arriving there, did you notice any other
 18 vehicles other than the ford bronco?
 19      A    Yes.
 20      Q    What other vehicles did you notice?
 21      A    there was another vehicle parked on Ashford,
 22 And -- I don't recall the description of it, but there was
 23 another vehicle parked on Ashford.
 24      Q    Did you take photographs of that vehicle?
 25      A    Not to my knowledge.
 26      Q    Did you observe that vehicle to see whether there
 27 were any things that looked like red spots on it?
 28      A    the vehicle just appeared to be a vehicle parked
 01 there at the curb.
 02      Q    Did you look into that vehicle?
 03      A    I didn't personally, no.
 04      Q    Did any of the other three detectives, to your
 05 knowledge, look into that vehicle?
 06      A    I don't have any knowledge of that.
 07      Q    Did you check the license plate on that vehicle
 08 and see who it was registered to?
 09      A    you know, I believe that was done, yes.
 10      Q    Who was that registered to?
 11      A    I believe the vehicle -- if I recall correctly, I
 12 believe the vehicle belonged to Mr. Kaelin.
 13      Q    But you didn't take any steps to photograph or
 14 preserve that vehicle, did you?
 15      A    Not to my knowledge.
 16      Q    How many times do you recall that you rang the
 17 buzzer in an attempt to notify Mr. Simpson?
 18      A    How many times?
 19      Q    Yes.
 20           Did you ring it once?
 21      A    Several.  I couldn't tell you how many times.
 22      Q    Would you describe this -- we have heard
 23 testimony about it.  Would you describe what it is that
 24 you --
 25      a    Sure.
 26           It is like a little square speaker box that has a
 27 button, and you press the button and you can hear the phone
 28 ringing inside the residence.
 01      Q    And you could clearly hear it ringing?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    How many times did it ring, approximately?  and
 04 this is not of great importance to be accurate, but does it
 05 just ring once or continue to ring with each press?
 06      A    It rings -- you press the button, and it will
 07 ring -- and this is an estimate -- six to eight times and
 08 then stops ringing.  You push the button, and it starts the
 09 cycle again.
 10      Q    You did this for 10 to 15 minutes?
 11      A    At least, yes.
 12      Q    Could you tell if more than one phone was
 13 ringing?
 14      A    No.  I could only hear the one.
 15      Q    About how far away were you from the house when
 16 you were doing this?
 17      A    It's -- I could make an estimate of maybe 50 to
 18 75 feet.
 19      Q    That ringing was pretty loud?
 20      A    Yeah.  I could hear it.
 21      Q    Did you think if you called on a telephone it
 22 would ring louder?
 23      A    No.  I just thought someone would answer the
 24 telephone.  It was just another attempt to try to locate
 25 someone.
 26      Q    Didn't this appear to be the telephone ringing?
 27      A    It appeared to be the intercom for the gate
 28 system, yes.
 01      Q    Did it appear to work on a telephone?
 02      A    I heard ringing.
 03      Q    You believed that a telephone was ringing, didn't
 04 you?
 05      A    I think we are arguing a point -- something was
 06 ringing inside.  I didn't know whether it was a telephone
 07 or intercom system that rang to alert someone there was a
 08 person at the front gate.  I heard ringing, Mr. Shapiro.
 09      Q    Does the Los Angeles police department have the
 10 capabilities in an emergency situation of getting home
 11 phone numbers of people who may have unlisted numbers?
 12      A    Not necessarily.  When you have a nonpublished
 13 number, you need to get -- normally you need a search
 14 warrant to get that information.
 15      Q    Have you ever heard of something called a reverse
 16 directory?
 17      A    Oh, absolutely; yes.
 18      Q    What is that?
 19      A    That is a directory that has published phone
 20 numbers that coincide with addresses in it.
 21      Q    You look up the address and find the phone
 22 number?
 23      A    If it is a published number, yes -- if it is a
 24 published phone number.
 25      Q    Did you take any steps to go through official
 26 Los Angeles police department channels to try to ascertain
 27 the home phone number of Mr. Simpson?
 28      A    Did I personally?
 01      Q    Yes.
 02      A    No, but I am aware of official steps that were
 03 taken.
 04      Q    Did any of the other three detectives at the time
 05 you were at the gate attempt to do this?
 06      A    Yes.  Detective phillips notified the West L.A.
 07 watch commander, who also contacted Westec Security.
 08      Q    That was the only attempt to do that?
 09      A    That was all we could do at that point.  Yes.
 10      Q    Speaking of westec, when westec was out there,
 11 did you or your partners there ask the westec
 12 representatives if they were routinely notified when
 13 Mr. Simpson was gone from the house for a day or more?
 14      A    I never asked that question.
 15      Q    What about the other three officers?
 16      A    I don't know.
 17      Q    Did it ever occur to you that even though
 18 Mr. Simpson might have a full-time maid, she might have a
 19 day or two off during the week?
 20      A    People have days off.  I never -- we were told
 21 there was a supposed to be a full-time live-in maid.
 22      Q    By whom?
 23      A    By westec security.
 24      Q    Does a full-time live-in maid to you mean seven
 25 days a week, 24 hours a day?
 26      A    I don't know, sir.  I have never had a maid.
 27      Q    Did you ask them whether she had any scheduled
 28 days on or off?
 01      A    I didn't, no.
 02      Q    Did any of the other three detectives ask that?
 03      A    I don't know that.
 04      Q    After there was no response from the attempts at
 05 the telephone and ringing the buzzer, did you try to use
 06 any type of amplified speakers or microphones to get the
 07 attention of Mr. Simpson?
 08      A    No.
 09      Q    How long after you were ringing the buzzer did
 10 you make the observation of the red blotch on the bronco?
 11      A    That would have been within the first probably 10
 12 to 20 minutes of being there.
 13      Q    After ringing the buzzer?
 14      A    No; after getting to the location.
 15      Q    So you went to the bronco first?
 16      A    I saw the bronco as I pulled in.  I didn't ring
 17 the bell for the continuous time.  I rang it some.  Some of
 18 the other detectives rang it some.
 19      Q    then you started looking at the bronco?
 20      A    I looked at the bronco when I first drove in; and
 21 then after ringing the bell a few times, I went around
 22 again and looked at the bronco.  And that's when I observed
 23 the items in the back of the car.
 24      Q    No.  My question was when did you observe the
 25 blood on the bronco.
 26      A    Within the first 10 to 20 minutes, when Fuhrman
 27 came and took me back.
 28      Q    Of being at the scene?  Of arriving at the scene?
 01      A    Probably within that time frame, yes.
 02      Q    And is that reflected in any notes or any logs?
 03      A    Not to my knowledge.
 04      Q    Is that an important part of this investigation?
 05      A    That was a part that was continuing, yes.
 06      Q    Is that an important part?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    And is that something that should be noted as to
 09 the time of discovery?
 10      A    It is something -- it is something that -- again,
 11 if I can explain the situation, we have an emergency
 12 situation.  We are not able to stop --
 13      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor --
 14      THE WITNESS:  May I finish my answer, sir?
 15      MR. SHAPIRO:  I have an objection.
 16      the WITNESS:  He has an objection to his own question?
 17      the COURT:  I don't think he is objecting to the
 18 question.  I think he is objecting to your answer.
 19           Detective, I believe the question was should the
 20 time of that discovery have been noted in --
 21      the WITNESS:  And I am trying to explain why it isn't,
 22 your Honor, if I may do that.
 24      Q    My question is not why it isn't but should it
 25 have been.
 26      MS. CLARK:  That goes to why it is or is not.
 27      the COURT:  Let's hear the answer to the question and
 28 then hear your explanation.
 01      the WITNESS:  I can't say "yes" or "no" to that.  That
 02 depends on the circumstances you are in.
 03           If you are in a gun battle someplace, you don't
 04 have time to say, "hold on.  Let me write this time down."
 05           If you have an emergency situation, you don't
 06 have time to break and say, "hold on a second.  I need to
 07 record all of this."
 08           In this situation it was not recorded because I
 09 didn't feel at that point I could stop and start taking
 10 notes because things were happening too quick.
 12      Q    Did you hear any noise from inside the residence
 13 that caused you concern that somebody might be dying?
 14      A    I heard no noise at all outside the ringing, and
 15 that caused me concern because I believed people could be
 16 there.
 17      Q    And your sole purpose at this time was to notify
 18 somebody of a death and to find the father of the children?
 19      A    At what time, sir?
 20      Q    At the point in time that you are at the
 21 residence for the first 15 minutes.
 22      A    Before observing the blood.
 23      Q    You said you observed the blood immediately and
 24 then went and rang the bell.
 25      A    No, I didn't.
 26      Q    YES, you did.
 27      A    No, I didn't.
 28      Q    Isn't it your testimony the bell was ringing for
 01 15 minutes and within the first 10 minutes you observed the
 02 blood?
 03      A    no.  That's not true.
 04      Q    Let's go over that.
 05           When did you observe the blood?
 06      A    I got to the location.  We went to the Ashford
 07 side, parked the vehicle, got out, attempted to ring the
 08 bell.  Telephone calls were made to westec security.  they
 09 sent -- actually ended up sending two units to the
 10 location.  A telephone call was made to the watch commander
 11 at the West L.A. division.  And during all of this
 12 occurrence, detective Fuhrman came to me and said, "I think
 13 I see blood on the vehicle."  And he walked me over there.
 14 This could have been -- this could have been ten minutes
 15 into it.  It could have been 30 minutes into it.  I
 16 couldn't tell you exactly.
 17      Q    You could tell us because you made a telephone
 18 call to the watch commander.
 19      A    No.  I can't tell you exactly because all of this
 20 is occurring -- this is not a sequence of events,
 21 Mr. Shapiro.  It is a group of things that are occurring at
 22 the same time.
 23      Q    RIGHT at the time the blood was spotted, you
 24 determined this to be an emergency situation?  Yes or no?
 25      A    Right at the time it was spotted -- I believe I
 26 was getting to that frame of mind prior to that because of
 27 the prior information I had, the fact I had left a very
 28 brutal scene that is very close to this location, the fact
 01 that one of the victims had a connection to Mr. Simpson.
 02           I think I was getting in that frame of mind
 03 before I ever saw the blood.  I think seeing the blood was
 04 the trigger that caused me to make a decision to go over
 05 the fence.
 06      Q    What was the time of death of the decedents, to
 07 the best of your knowledge at the time you were at
 08 Rockingham?
 09      A    the time of death?
 10           Well, I can only tell you that I was informed
 11 that -- I believe they were found, or discovered, at
 12 approximately 0010 hours, which would be ten after
 13 midnight.  the time of death, I would have no idea.
 14      Q    It was sometime before but certainly not after --
 15      a    Obviously sometime before 0010 hours would be
 16 time of death, yes.
 17      Q    And what time did you decide to scale the fence
 18 for the emergency at the Simpson house?
 19      A    I believe it was very close to 6 o'clock, around
 20 6 o'clock, in the morning.
 21      Q    now, you went over there -- when you scaled the
 22 fence, you believed there may be hostages inside; is that
 23 correct?
 24      A    I believed there may be a whole set of
 25 circumstances.
 26      Q    No.  Let's take them one by one.
 27           Was one of your set of circumstances your belief
 28 there could be hostages inside?
 01      A    I can't answer that "yes" or "no."  there could
 02 have been thousands of scenarios in that situation.
 03           The facts -- may I finish?
 04           The facts that led me up to going over the wall
 05 include a set of facts that led me to believe this was an
 06 emergency situation.
 07      Q    Can you tell us whether or not you believed there
 08 was hostage situation?  Yes or no?
 09      A    That could have been a possibility, yes.
 10      Q    And if there was a hostage situation, would you
 11 notify communications for backup?
 12      A    If I was totally aware of that, that would change
 13 the entire circumstances of the entry into that location.
 14           What you are talking about is you are taking a
 15 tactical field situation and equating it to an emergency
 16 field situation, which is two different sets of
 17 circumstances.
 18      Q    Did you believe the possibility of people in the
 19 residence or on the grounds bleeding to death?
 20      A    That was a possibility, yes.
 21      Q    If you truly believed that, would you call
 22 communications and ask for paramedics?
 23      A    Not until I made sure that was a safe location,
 24 no.
 25      Q    If you were concerned about your safety, would
 26 you go in with backup units?
 27      A    Definitely.
 28      Q    Did you go in with backup units?
 01      A    No.
 02      Q    If you were concerned about your safety, would
 03 you go in with vests?
 04      A    Definitely.
 05      Q    Did you go in with vests?
 06      A    No.
 07      Q    If you were concerned about your safety, would
 08 you go in with weapons drawn?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    Did you go in with weapons drawn?
 11      A    No.
 12      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, before we go into another
 13 area, which may be more lengthy, perhaps this might be a
 14 good time.  It is a few minutes early.  May I suggest a
 15 break?
 16      The COURT:  All right.
 17           Thank you, detective Vannatter.  Please do not
 18 discuss your testimony with any other witness.
 19           May I see counsel in chambers, please.
 20           Recess until 1:30.
 22                (proceedings were had in chambers
 23                which were transcribed in volume
 24                8-a, ordered sealed by the court.)
 25                (at 12:05 p.m., a recess was taken
 26                until 1:30 p.m.)
 28                           -o0o-
 04                                        )  no. BA097211
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06             VS.                        )
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                                        )
 10                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 12                        )   SS
 22           DATED THIS 6th DAY OF July, 1994.
 24                _____________________________________
 24                      ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 25                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 27                _____________________________________
 27                       ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
 28                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 04                                        )
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06                 VS.                    )   VOLUME 9
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 13                 WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, 1994
 16                              WILLIAM HODGMAN
 17                              DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
 19                              GERALD UELMEN
 20                              PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
 26                              ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 27                              ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
 27                              OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
 01                    MOTION TO SUPPRESS
 02                        I N D E X
 04 PHILLIP VANNATTER                      4       15
 04                                       18
 05 BRIAN KATO KAELIN       52    54      57
 09 BRIAN KATO KAELIN        33    40
 11 CATHY RANDA              75
 12 DENNIS FUNG              80    83     85
 13                          -O0O-
 14                         EXHIBITS
 15                    MOTION TO SUPPRESS
 18 E - NOTES OF OFFICER                             NOT
 18     FUHRMAN                                    RECEIVED
 19 F - SERIES OF PHOTOS                              7
 20 G-1 - IMPOUND REPORT                        NOT RECEIVED
 21 G-2 - IMPOUND REPORT                        NOT RECEIVED
 22 G-3 - IMPOUND REPORT                        NOT RECEIVED
 23 H - SEARCH WARRANT               23              NOT
 24     AFFIDAVIT                                  RECEIVED
 26 6 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                              9
 27 8 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                              9
 28 9 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                              9
 01                 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
 02                  WEDNESDAY JULY 6, 1994
 03                        1:32 P.M.
 04                          -O0O-
 06      THE COURT:  We're once again on the record in the
 07 case of People versus Simpson.
 08           The defendant is present with counsel, the
 09 people are represented.
 10           Detective Vannatter, if you'd retake the
 11 witness STAND, sir.
 12      THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honor.
 13      THE COURT:  And I remind you that you remain under
 14 oath.
 15      THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 17                    PHILLIP VANNATTER,
 18 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
 19 having been previously called and duly sworn, resumed
 20 the stand and testified further as follows:
 21      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro?
 22      MR. SHAPIRO:  No further questions at this time,
 23 Your Honor.
 24      THE COURT:  No further questions?
 25      MR. SHAPIRO:  No.
 26      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark?
 27      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 28 \ \
 01                   REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 04      Q    Detective Vannatter, I'm kind of curious.
 05           You said that you were very surprised by a
 06 maid not being there on the property.   And that you
 07 didn't -- on cross-examination, I think you indicated
 08 that you did not consider the possibility that she would
 09 have some days off.
 10           Did you expect someone to always be on that
 11 property?
 12      A    Well, from the appearance of the property,
 13 with lights on and vehicles parked there, yes, I thought
 14 someone was there.
 15      Q    And when you say "vehicles parked there," you
 16 mean the one on Rockingham, the Bronco outside?
 17      A    Well, that as well as two other vehicles that
 18 were parked inside the compound in the driveway which
 19 would be on the Rockingham drive.
 20      Q    There were multiple vehicles inside the
 21 driveway?
 22      A    There were two other vehicles that I could
 23 see, yes.
 24      Q    and you could see that from the Ashford gate?
 25      A    Well, no.   I saw that from the Rockingham
 26 gate.   When I walked over to that area, I could see it.
 27      Q    When you walked over and you were looking at
 28 the Bronco?
 01      A    That's correct, yes.
 02      Q    You could see through that gate?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    Can you show us on that defense diagram where
 05 you saw those other cars?
 06      A    Certainly.   The vehicles were parked up in
 07 this area here, which is the little jut out that looked
 08 like a parking area for vehicles.   And looking through
 09 the gate, you could see the vehicles parked there.
 10      MS. CLARK:  For the record, the witness has pointed
 11 to an area that is actually just above the area of what
 12 is marked as the word "driveway" on the diagram, that is
 13 the southern most portion of the property.
 14      THE COURT:  All right.
 16      Q    So counsel was asking you about using the
 17 chrono log forms.
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    What is the difference between a blank piece
 20 of paper and the form that you used for your
 21 chronological log?
 22      A    Nothing, except there's lines on the
 23 chronological log and there's a heading that says
 24 "chronological log."
 25      Q    So the difference between a blank page and the
 26 chrono log form is horizontal lines and a heading.
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    What information is usually required to be on
 01 a chronological log?    When you make an entry, what are
 02 you supposed to put in that entry?
 03      A    The entries are mainly very general entries as
 04 to the day and quite possibly the time that you make a
 05 follow-up, but you never put the information that you
 06 receive from that on the log.
 07      Q    That just records what you did, not the
 08 results of what you did?
 09      A    Exactly.
 10      Q    And did you look at the chronological log
 11 that's been compiled so far in this case?
 12      A    When it was in front of me, yes.
 13      Q    What information -- what is the difference
 14 between what you've got on the blank pages written down
 15 on the chronological log than you would have had on the
 16 form with the lines on it?
 17      A    There would be no difference.
 18      Q    So you've got the same information on this
 19 chrono log that you would have if you had used the forms
 20 with the horizontal lines and the headings.
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    Now, the photographs of the Bronco --
 23      MS. CLARK:  I wonder if I could inquire of the
 24 clerk.
 25           Do we have the defense exhibits here?
 26      THE CLERK:  I have all the exhibits, yes.
 27      MS. CLARK:  Could you bring them?
 28      THE CLERK:  Sure.
 01      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 03      Q    How many pictures of the Ford Bronco in its
 04 position on the street were taken, sir?
 05      A    I don't know.
 06      Q    More than one?
 07      A    Several, I would say, yes.
 08      Q    Do you remember what each and every one of
 09 them look like right now?
 10      A    No, I do not.
 11      Q    You requested the criminalist to make sure
 12 that photographs were taken of that Bronco, I think you
 13 so testified.
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    What was your intention with respect to taking
 16 those photographs of the Bronco?
 17      A    To document any evidence and the location of
 18 the vehicle and the identity of the vehicle.
 19      MS. CLARK:  There is a defense EXHIBIT.   I don't
 20 know which one that is, Your Honor, with the  --
 21      THE COURT:  Is that the one with the four photos on
 22 it?
 23      MS. CLARK:  Yes.
 24      THE COURT:  That is 'F'.
 25      MS. CLARK:  Thank you very much.
 27      Q    Showing you Defense Exhibit 'F', do you
 28 recognize what's shown in there, sir?
 01      A    Yes, I do.
 02      Q    What is it?
 03      A    It's four pictures, labeled 1 through 4, of
 04 different perspectives of the same vehicle, the Ford
 05 Bronco.
 06      Q    Okay.   And showing you Defense Exhibit 'C',
 07 do you recognize what's shown there?
 08      A    Yes, I do.
 09      Q    What's shown there?
 10      A    That's the Ford Bronco, the west wall, and the
 11 Rockingham gate to Mr. Simpson's residence.
 12      Q    Looking at those photographs, sir, defense
 13 counsel, I think, asked you whether the pictures taken
 14 of the Ford Bronco at your direction through the
 15 criminalist were accurate pictures of the position of
 16 that car as you saw it on Rockingham.
 17           Do you recall that question, sir?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    With respect to whether or not the car had
 20 been moved from the position in which you first observed
 21 it, is that -- is it the case that the car was not moved
 22 before those photographs were taken?
 23      A    The car was not moved.
 24      Q    Can you see in those photographs the angle
 25 that you've described for us earlier with the rear end
 26 jutting out a little bit, appearing to have been parked
 27 in haste?
 28      A    Yes, I can.
 01      Q    Show us where.
 02      A    If you look at pictures number 2 and number 4,
 03 it shows the front wheel of the vehicle to be setting
 04 actually on the paved curb section -- part of the paved
 05 curb section in the asphalt.   And the back wheel, the
 06 passenger side, to be strictly on the asphalt, farther
 07 west than the front wheel.
 08      Q    And are either of the wheels up next to the
 09 curb?
 10      A    No, they are not.
 11      Q    I think you earlier indicated that at some
 12 point you saw the children leaving the house.
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    Do you recall what transpired in terms of
 15 arranging for their care and custody while you were in
 16 the house on 360 Rockingham?
 17      A    Yes, I do.
 18      Q    Can you please tell us?
 19      A    After Detective Lange had a conversation with
 20 Mr. Simpson, Mr. Simpson had indicated to Detective
 21 Lange that he wished the children to be with his
 22 daughter, Arnelle.
 23           She was notified of that, contacted Al
 24 Cowlings.   He responded to the location and they went
 25 to West Los Angeles division and picked up the children.
 26      Q    Do you know when the children arrived at 360
 27 Rockingham with Al Cowlings?
 28      A    I know approximately.   It would have been
 01 around, I believe, around 7:00 o'clock in the morning.
 02      Q    And how long after that did you determine that
 03 the area should be sealed for the purpose of securing a
 04 search warrant?
 05      A    I had actually come to that conclusion a
 06 little earlier than that.   I was waiting for the
 07 criminalist to respond there to do a presumptive blood
 08 test for me, and after that was done was when I closed
 09 down the area and secured the area.
 10      Q    And you closed down -- do you remember what
 11 time it was approximately when you secured the area?
 12      A    It would have been between 7:00 and 7:30.   I
 13 left the location approximately 7:30, so it was before I
 14 left there.   So it would have been some time in the
 15 range of probably 7:10 to 7:15, something like that.
 16      Q    Shortly after Al Cowlings got there with the
 17 children?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    Counsel asked you on cross-examination about
 20 tactical support, I think it was mentioned, with respect
 21 to, in that instance, the effort made to take the
 22 defendant into custody.
 23           Do you recall that question, sir?
 24      A    Yes, I do.
 25      Q    How is that situation different from the one
 26 that you found confronting you at 360 Rockingham in the
 27 early morning hours of June 13th?
 28      A    Well, a tactical situation is totally
 01 different from the situation we were facing there.   I
 02 believed this to be an emergency situation which
 03 requires, I felt, action to be taken.
 04           A tactical situation is if you have a location
 05 that you know you have a suspect, a hostage or whatever,
 06 if these are known facts, you immediately request
 07 uniforms to respond.   You notify a supervisor.
 08           Detectives are required to put on vests and
 09 what we call raid jackets, Los Angeles police raid
 10 jackets, that readily identify us as police officers.
 11           This was not this situation at all.   This
 12 situation was something that I felt was an emergency
 13 that needed to be handle immediately.
 14      Q    And in this situation, did you believe that
 15 you had -- did you believe that you were pursuing a
 16 suspect into the residence at 360 Rockingham?
 17      A    I really didn't know what I was pursuing in
 18 there.   I had no specific suspect in mind at that
 19 point.
 20           My main feeling at that point, coupled with
 21 all the information I had, was this was a situation that
 22 someone could be injured, we could have another murder
 23 scene, we could have a murder/suicide scene, we could
 24 have people that needed assistance.   And that was my
 25 feeling.
 26      Q    So would it be fair to say, sir, that you were
 27 concerned not so much for your safety, but for the
 28 safety of someone else you might find inside the
 01 compound?
 02      MR. SHAPIRO:  Objection; leading and suggestive.
 03      THE COURT:  sustained.
 05      Q    Were you concerned for officers' safety at the
 06 moment you decided to go over the wall?
 07      A    Not at all.   I wouldn't have let anyone enter
 08 that location the way we were if I felt there was a
 09 safety problem at that time.
 10      Q    Well, if you were concerned for someone else's
 11 safety, sir, why didn't you call an ambulance right then
 12 before you went over the wall?
 13      A    I would never call an ambulance until an area
 14 has been cleared and secured.   I don't want to bring
 15 someone else in that could be in danger.   I wouldn't do
 16 that.
 17      Q    So until you found out what you had back
 18 there, you were not about to call an ambulance.
 19      A    No, not until I assessed the situation and
 20 actually knew what I was dealing with.
 21           At that point, again, I didn't really know
 22 what I was dealing with.   I was -- I had certain
 23 knowledge that gave me a feeling that this was an
 24 emergency situation and something that had to be dealt
 25 with immediately.
 26           And at that point I didn't know whether I had
 27 people down, I didn't know whether I had, again, another
 28 scene, someone injured.   I didn't know.
 01      MS. CLARK:  May I have a moment, Your Honor?
 02      THE COURT:  Yes.
 03      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 05      Q    You were asked earlier, sir, about the method
 06 in which Ronald Goldman (sic) was notified and how long
 07 it took to do that.
 08      A    You mean the family of Mr. Goldman.
 09      Q    That's correct, I'm sorry.
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    Thank you.
 12           When you arrived at the crime scene at
 13 about 4:00 a.m., were you aware of the identity of the
 14 male victim who was found near Nicole Simpson?
 15      A    No.
 16      Q    Was anyone, to your knowledge, at the crime
 17 scene aware of his identity?
 18      A    No.
 19      Q    At what point was his identity made known to
 20 you?
 21      A    I actually found out his identity while I was
 22 at West Los Angeles station.   It would have been
 23 somewhere between 10:00 and 11:00 o'clock.   That the
 24 coroner's representatives had responded to the location
 25 and they had identified him from identification that was
 26 on him.   Also --
 27      Q    So when the coroner's investigator arrived and
 28 found identification on him, that's when his identity
 01 was determined?
 02      A    That's correct.
 03      Q    Do you know what time that was, approximately?
 04      A    Well, I got notification while I was at
 05 West L.A. division.   It would have been after
 06 10:00 o'clock, I'm sure of that.
 07      Q    With respect to -- let's say for a moment that
 08 you knew that there was a suspect in 360 Rockingham
 09 Avenue.
 10           What would you have done?
 11      MR. SHAPIRO:  Objection; calls for speculation.
 12      MS. CLARK:  This is an expert witness, Your Honor,
 13 who knows -- he's describing actually the differences
 14 between the situation he was confronted with and that
 15 with which he was questioned by Mr. Shapiro.
 16      THE COURT:  Are you asking how he would have
 17 handled it differently if he was pursuing a suspect and
 18 he knew he was pursuing a suspect before he entered the
 19 premises?
 20      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor.
 21      THE COURT:  The objection is overruled.
 22      THE WITNESS:  Well, that would have become a
 23 tactical situation then.   I would have made
 24 notification to the West Los Angeles watch commander,
 25 requested uniforms to respond to the location.   I would
 26 have placed officers around the residence to secure the
 27 residence.
 28           I would have had the detectives there put on
 01 vests and raid jackets, and I would have contacted,
 02 probably, our Metropolitan Division to have special
 03 negotiators come out and try to talk the suspect out of
 04 the location.
 05      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 06      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro?
 07      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, Your Honor, thank you.
 09                   RECROSS-EXAMINATION
 12      Q    Detective, regarding the Ford Bronco, at some
 13 point in time did that vehicle have some evidentiary
 14 value in and of itself?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    When did you determine it had evidentiary
 17 value?
 18      A    After looking at all of the scene that I saw
 19 there and as it began to lighten up that morning, after
 20 seeing the blood trail in the driveway, I could see into
 21 the vehicle and see additional blood inside the vehicle,
 22 and at that point it became a very important evidentiary
 23 item.
 24      Q    What time was that?
 25      A    Probably around the -- right after I saw the
 26 blood trail in the driveway.
 27      Q    What time was that about?
 28      A    That would have been -- again, I will have to
 01 estimate.   That would probably have been around 6:45
 02 to 7:00 o'clock, something like that.
 03      Q    And what steps did you take to secure that
 04 vehicle and preserve the evidence?
 05      A    I instructed the detectives that the vehicle
 06 was to be impounded.   It was to be guarded.
 07           And I told the criminalist who responded at
 08 7:10 that it was of evidentiary value, to photograph,
 09 obtain any items of evidence that he could from the
 10 outside, and to protect the vehicle.
 11      Q    Were your instructions followed?
 12      A    To the best of my knowledge, yes.
 13      Q    Did you have any reports that the media
 14 surrounded the car, they couldn't keep the media away
 15 from it, and coffee cups were put on the car and coffee
 16 spilled?
 17      A    No, sir, I was not aware of that.
 18      Q    What do you mean by "securing the premises"?
 19      A    In what context, Mr. Shapiro?
 20      Q    The term you used.   You used that all this
 21 morning, secured the -- "I secured the premises."
 22           What do you mean by that?
 23      A    Well, in a literal sense -- that's a police
 24 term that's used.   In a literal sense, it can mean a
 25 couple of things.
 26      Q    What did you mean by it when you used it this
 27 morning?
 28      A    Okay.   What I meant this morning is a check
 01 of the location to make sure that everything's okay,
 02 that there's no forced entry into the home, that there's
 03 nobody injured, that there's nobody down or nobody in
 04 need of assistance.
 05      Q    What time did you make that determination that
 06 the residence was secure?
 07      A    What time did I make the determination that it
 08 was secured?
 09           That, again, would have been, I believe, after
 10 walking back outside and being notified that Mr. Simpson
 11 was in Chicago, that he had been talked to and that he
 12 was in route back to Los Angeles; that the maid was not
 13 present at the location and that nobody else was found
 14 there.
 15           And that would have been probably 6:45 to 7:00
 16 in the morning.
 17      Q    You later determined that the bedrooms for the
 18 house itself -- not the guest bedrooms, but the main
 19 bedrooms -- were on the second story, did you not?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.  Nothing further.
 22      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark, anything else?
 23      MS. CLARK:  I'm sorry, Your Honor, may I have a
 24 moment.
 28 \ \
 03 by MS. CLARK:
 04      Q    Well, Detective Vannatter, if you were
 05 concerned, sir, about the welfare of people inside the
 06 residence, why didn't you go upstairs and look to see if
 07 somebody was up there?
 08      A    I had determined before I had a chance to do
 09 that that the main person that we were concerned
 10 about -- in fact, the main two people we were concerned
 11 about, Mr. Simpson and the maid, were accounted for, and
 12 was also told that there was no one else at the
 13 location.
 14      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 15      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, anything further?
 16      MR. SHAPIRO:  No, thank you, Your Honor.
 17      THE COURT:  Thank you, detective.   You may step
 18 down.
 19           Please do not discuss your testimony with
 20 anyone except the attorneys.
 21           Next witness.
 22      MS. CLARK:  Yes.
 23           No further witnesses for the people,
 24 Your Honor.
 25      THE COURT:  All right.
 26           Mr. Shapiro, do you intend to present some
 27 evidence with regard to this motion?
 28      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, Your Honor.
 01           The first piece of evidence that we will
 02 present is already part of the court record, and that's
 03 the search warrant affidavit --
 04      MS. CLARK:  There would be an objection  --
 05      MR. SHAPIRO:  -- That was signed -- excuse me.
 06      MS. CLARK:  I'm sorry.   I thought counsel had
 07 completed.
 08      MR. SHAPIRO:  -- That has been signed under penalty
 09 of perjury by Detective Vannatter, and that is part of
 10 the court record and part of the proceedings that have
 11 been filed with this court.   We'd like the court to
 12 consider that.
 13           In addition, we want to call the criminalist
 14 for the Los Angeles Police Department, Mr. Fung, and we
 15 have two other civilian witnesses  --
 16      MR. UELMEN:  Three others.
 17      MR. SHAPIRO:  -- three other civilian witnesses.
 18      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark, with respect to the search
 19 warrant affidavit, do you wish to be heard?
 20      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor, thank you.
 21           First of all, I think Mr. Shapiro has failed
 22 to lay a foundation.   He has not questioned the
 23 detective concerning whether this affidavit was written
 24 by him or he is the affiant or this is the search
 25 warrant for this location.   That would be easily laid,
 26 so he's failed to do so.
 27           Secondly, it's not in issue.   We are not
 28 litigating this search warrant, and any of the
 01 assertions contained therein do not pertain to the state
 02 of mind that was prevailing at the moment the decision
 03 was made to go over the wall.   That is the only state
 04 of mind and the only set of circumstances that are now
 05 in issue before this court.
 06           Therefore, this warrant and any variants that
 07 are contained therein are irrelevant.
 08      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 09      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.   The copy that I have is a
 10 warrant signed under penalty of perjury by Phillip L.
 11 Vannatter, who I believe is the witness here, since he
 12 describes himself as being the same person who testified
 13 as a police detective for the Los Angeles Police
 14 Department, assigned to robbery homicide special
 15 section, and he's been a police officer for over 25
 16 years.
 17           If there is another Vannatter who has such
 18 similar credentials and has been employed with the same
 19 exact name and same badge number, then we will take the
 20 Court's time to establish the foundation.
 21      THE COURT:  well, Mr. Shapiro, what is your legal
 22 theory for the admissibility of this document?
 23      MR. SHAPIRO:  This document is evidence.   This is
 24 evidence that is sworn under penalty of perjury, that is
 25 part of the official court record of this case.
 26           There are in this warrant, in our opinion,
 27 four material misrepresentations that go to impeach the
 28 credibility of Detective Vannatter and his testimony
 01 here today.
 02      THE COURT:  All right.
 03      MR. SHAPIRO:  It is offered only for the purpose of
 04 impeachment.
 05      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, basically this document is
 06 hearsay.   The fact that it is under -- declared to be
 07 true under penalty of perjury does not relieve it from
 08 the category of hearsay.
 09           And for an exception to apply -- and there may
 10 be some exception to certain portions of that warrant or
 11 the affidavit, I don't know that -- but if there are
 12 some inconsistent statements with the testimony here,
 13 conceivably portions of that may in fact be admissible.
 14           But just to offer the affidavit as such in a
 15 whole is hearsay without any exception.
 16           So I'm going to sustain the objection.
 17      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I be heard, Your Honor?
 18      THE COURT:  Yes.
 19      MR. SHAPIRO:  Under Proposition 115, that is not a
 20 valid objection, with all due respect to the court.
 21           Number two, all  --
 22      THE COURT:  Just a minute.
 23      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I finish?
 24      THE COURT:  I'll let you finish, Mr. Shapiro, but
 25 Proposition 115 does not apply to the suppression
 26 hearing.
 27      MR. SHAPIRO:  I believe all relevant evidence is
 28 admissible and that hearsay evidence on a prior
 01 inconsistent statement is an exception to the hearsay
 02 rule and would be admissible.
 03           We'll submit the matter, Your Honor.
 04      THE COURT:  All right.
 05           On just the basis of the affidavit, offering
 06 that without any sort of foundation, without any
 07 testimony from a live witness with regard to that
 08 statement, the hearsay objection and the relevance
 09 objections would apply and I would not receive the
 10 affidavit in this form.
 11      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, we'd like to recall
 12 officer Vannatter, please.
 13      THE COURT:  All right.
 14           I think I've said this before.   You remain
 15 under oath.
 16      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, Your Honor.
 18                    PHILLIP VANNATTER,
 19 called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendant,
 20 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
 21 follows:
 23                    DIRECT EXAMINATION
 26      Q    Detective Vannatter, are you the affiant in
 27 search warrant number 94-0093?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    And that's a document, a copy of which has
 02 been handed to me, which consists of the affidavit
 03 itself, consists of two and a half pages -- two and a
 04 quarter pages, actually.
 05      A    I believe that's correct, yes.
 06      Q    Let me just show it to you and make sure we're
 07 talking about the same document.
 08      A    Okay.
 09      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I approach the witness, YOUR
 10 HONOR?
 11      THE COURT:  Yes.
 12           Did you wish to mark this as an exhibit?
 13      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.   Defendant's next.
 14      THE COURT:  'H'.
 15      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, thank you, Your Honor.
 16      THE WITNESS:  Yes.   That appears to be a copy of
 17 it, yes.
 19      Q    It appears to be or it is?
 20      A    Well, it's a copy of the original, yes.
 21      Q    And where is the original, if you know?
 22      A    The original was returned to the court.
 23      Q    Filed as part of this case?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    You executed this affidavit under penalty of
 26 perjury, did you not?
 27      A    That's correct.
 28      Q    In the affidavit, you indicated the
 01 following:  "detectives observed what appeared to be
 02 human blood, later confirmed by scientific investigation
 03 personnel to be human blood, on the driver's door handle
 04 of the vehicle."
 05           Did you write that, sir?
 06      A    Yes, I did.
 07      Q    When did scientific investigation personnel
 08 tell you that it was human blood on the door handle?
 09      MS. CLARK:  objection; irrelevant.
 10           Your Honor, counsel is trying to back-door a
 11 motion to traverse and quash, and as we've indicated
 12 earlier, nothing pursuant to the WARRANT is being
 13 offered.
 14           In order to get into issues concerning the
 15 validity of the warrants, something has to be offered by
 16 the people that was seized pursuant thereto, and it's
 17 not.
 18           The state of mind of this officer at the time
 19 he wrote the warrant is irrelevant to the state of mind
 20 that he had that bore upon his decision to go over the
 21 wall.   And none of these questions concerning the
 22 veracity or the accuracy of the statements contained in
 23 this affidavit are relevant.
 24      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 25      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.
 26           Your Honor, we are only offering this for
 27 impeachment as it goes to credibility of this witness.
 28 Your Honor is going to have to make a decision on
 01 credibility regarding whether or not the testimony that
 02 has been proffered here to Your Honor is in fact
 03 credible testimony as one of the criteria for making
 04 you're evaluations as to whether or not evidence should
 05 be suppressed.
 06           In evaluating the credibility of a witness, we
 07 are certainly entitled to use previous testimony under
 08 oath for purposes of impeachment on a relevant issue,
 09 not on a collateral issue.
 10           This is a relevant issue.   This is testimony
 11 given under oath by this detective.   It is relevant and
 12 material to his credibility, and that is the only
 13 purpose for which it is used.
 14           We are not seeking to quash or traverse this
 15 search warrant or do anything in regard to the search
 16 warrant, and in fact, quite the contrary.   We offered
 17 to use this without any testimony.
 18      THE COURT:  I was under the impression,
 19 Mr. Shapiro, that your offer of proof before indicated
 20 that there were some prior inconsistent statements --
 21 four, I think you mentioned  --
 22      MR. SHAPIRO:  That's correct.
 23      THE COURT:  -- in this affidavit that would be
 24 inconsistent with the witness's testimony here in court.
 25           Is that correct?
 26      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, some are inconsistent
 27 with his statements in court.   I believe in court that
 28 he did testify that it was human blood, and I believe
 01 the affidavit -- I don't believe -- the affidavit says
 02 S.I.D. personnel found it to be human blood.   And we
 03 will offer testimony from their own chemist that he did
 04 not come to that conclusion.
 05           So that, we would say, is a major question of
 06 credibility with this witness and an out and out
 07 misstatement under penalty of perjury to the court.
 08      MS. CLARK:  May I, Your Honor?
 09      THE COURT:  Yes.
 10      MS. CLARK:  No, it's not.   It's actually not that.
 11           This witness has testified consistently.   He
 12 believed it to be human blood when he was at the scene,
 13 and in the affidavit it contains his belief that it was
 14 human blood.
 15           If he's wrong, if he was wrong then, and he
 16 was wrong when he presented this affidavit as to what he
 17 believed the scientific investigations person concluded
 18 with respect to his testing, then he's consistent.
 19 Maybe wrong, but consistent.
 20           There is no impeachment contained in this
 21 affidavit with respect to that point, and I once again
 22 do reiterate that the point -- the state of mind that
 23 this officer had at the time he was seeking to obtain
 24 the warrant has no bearing on the determination of
 25 whether or not exigent circumstances applied to permit
 26 the entry without a warrant at the time that it was
 27 made.
 28           All of the inquiry that I know Mr. Shapiro
 01 intends to go into concerning this affidavit is
 02 irrelevant to the circumstances that are confronting
 03 this court and the issues that are being presented here
 04 concerning the exigent circumstances, but at least with
 05 respect to that one showing, it certainly is not even an
 06 inconsistent prior statement.
 07      THE COURT:  The way I see it, Mr. Shapiro, is that
 08 if in fact there is an inconsistent statement with
 09 regard to something that the detective testified to
 10 during the course of the proceeding, then that would be
 11 admissible.  But we're not going to create strawmen to
 12 shoot down later that were not part of the testimony.
 13           So the objection to this point is sustained.
 14      MR. SHAPIRO:  To that question?
 15      THE COURT:  Yes.
 16      MR. SHAPIRO:  May I ask another question?
 17      THE COURT:  Yes.
 18      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 19           May I just confer with Mr. Uelmen?
 20      THE COURT:  Yes.
 21        (discussion between counsel, sotto voce.)
 22      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, the real question -- and
 23 Mr. Uelmen has phrased it in these terms -- the real
 24 issue for Your Honor to determine is whether Detective
 25 Vannatter would lie in order to sustain a search.
 26           And if we have evidence that he lied on the
 27 search warrant in order to obtain that, that goes to his
 28 credibility here as to whether or not he would lie to
 01 sustain a search.
 02      THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, I'm not going to go into
 03 the -- what I agree with the prosecution would amount to
 04 a traversal of the search warrant since the prosecution
 05 has indicated that they are in fact not going to offer
 06 any of the evidence that was recovered after its
 07 execution.
 08      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 09           There is one other issue, and perhaps I will
 10 just do it as offer of proof.
 11           We would offer to ask this officer the
 12 following:  whether in the affidavit he submitted he
 13 told  --
 14      MS. CLARK:  Well, objection, Your Honor.   I don't
 15 see offer of proof is necessary.
 16           Either counsel may ask the question of the
 17 witness and it's a proper question or not, or not ask
 18 the question, but I don't see what is the purpose of
 19 making a record of offer of proof as to questions that
 20 will not be posed.
 21      THE COURT:  Why don't you just ask the question,
 22 Mr. Shapiro.
 23      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 25      Q    Detective Vannatter, did you, in your
 26 statement to the magistrate judge, under penalty of
 27 perjury, indicate the following:  "it was determined by
 28 interview of Simpson's daughter and a friend, Brian
 01 Kaelin, Simpson had left on an unexpected flight to
 02 Chicago during the early morning hours of June 13th,
 03 1994, and was last seen at the residence at
 04 approximately 2300 hours June 12th, 1994?"
 05      A    Yes, I did.
 06      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, nothing further.
 07      MS. CLARK:  And there would be an objection to the
 08 question and ask that the answer be stricken as being
 09 irrelevant.
 10      THE COURT:  Overruled.
 11           Ms. Clark, do you have any questions for the
 12 detective?
 13      MS. CLARK:  No, I have no questions.   Thank you,
 14 Your Honor.
 15      THE COURT:  You may step down.  Thank you.
 16      THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
 17      MR. UELMEN:  We would call Mr. Fung.
 18      THE COURT:  All right.
 19      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, with respect to the
 20 questioning that has already occurred, I would ask
 21 counsel to give us offer of proof as to the relevance of
 22 the testimony of this witness in light of the fact that
 23 he has indicated, I believe, during the
 24 cross-examination of Detective Vannatter that he intends
 25 to prove that the criminalist could not come up with a
 26 conclusion as to whether or not it was human or animal
 27 blood.   There is no relevance to that inquiry at this
 28 time.
 01      THE COURT:  Well, I'm not going to require offer of
 02 proof at this point in time.   They've indicated they
 03 intend to call this witness, and I'll let you ask your
 04 questions, at least initially, and see if we're in
 05 relevant testimony.
 06      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 07      MR. UELMEN:  Do we need to summon him or is he
 08 waiting in the hall?
 09      MS. CLARK:  No.
 10      MR. UELMEN:  Your Honor, we indicated two days ago
 11 that we intended to call Mr. Fung as a witness and were
 12 informed that he would be available.   And, in fact, the
 13 prosecution indicated that they were going to call
 14 Mr. Fung as well.
 15      MS. CLARK:  That was the only representation I
 16 remember was I indicated to counsel I may or may not
 17 call Dennis Fung.
 18           And as far as I know, the criminalist was
 19 never under defense subpoena.  And, if he had been, I
 20 certainly would have arranged for him to be here and
 21 assisted counsel in that regard.  But I was not of the
 22 impression that counsel wanted to call him.
 23           In fact, I can't think of an admissible -- a
 24 theory of admissibility for his testimony in any
 25 event.   But that's irrelevant.
 26      THE COURT:  Aside from the theory of admissibility,
 27 I do recall that we did discuss this in chambers and so
 28 I believe that I heard that discussion.
 01      MS. CLARK:  Yes, but  --
 02      THE COURT:  And I don't know that any specific
 03 dates or times were mentioned, but my recollection is
 04 that Mr. Uelmen asked you if Mr. Fung was going to be
 05 available, and I believe you indicated that he would be.
 06           And then, secondly, when I asked, I believe
 07 yesterday, as to which witnesses were going to testify,
 08 he was one of the names that you gave me as a witness
 09 that you intended to call.
 10           So I take it that Mr. Fung is not here in the
 11 courthouse at this time?
 12      MS. CLARK:  He's not, but I can certainly make him
 13 available immediately, and I will have him called
 14 immediately, Your Honor.
 15           As I understood -- what I intended to convey
 16 was that I was tentative as to whether I would call
 17 Mr. Fung, that when I was unsure  --
 18      THE COURT:  I'm not faulting you or holding you to
 19 anything based on that.   I think it was an honest
 20 misunderstanding and one apparently that we can easily
 21 rectify.
 22      MS. CLARK:  Yes.
 23      THE COURT:  And so we will do that.
 24           Do you have a witness that is present here
 25 while we're waiting for the arrival of Mr. Fung?
 26      MR. UELMEN:  We can recall Mr. Kaelin, and we do
 27 have two other witnesses.
 28      THE COURT:  Is Mr. Kaelin available here in the
 01 courthouse?
 02      MS. CLARK:  Yes, he is.
 03      THE COURT:  Then let's get Mr. Kaelin.
 04           And can someone, on your behalf -- since you
 05 have all the phone numbers and so forth -- contact the
 06 crime lab and have Mr. Fung available?
 07      MS. CLARK:  yes, Your Honor, right away.
 08      THE COURT:  Thank you.
 09      MS. CLARK:  Mr. Kaelin IS apparently -- he's on the
 10 elevator.
 11      THE COURT:  All right.
 12      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 13           Yes, Your Honor.   Mr. Fung is on his way.
 14      THE COURT:  Thank you.
 15      MS. CLARK:  He should be here very shortly.   And
 16 Mr. Kaelin is also on his way and will be here even more
 17 shortly.
 18      THE COURT:  I don't know, those elevators.
 19 Mr. Fung might get here first.
 20      MS. CLARK:  May as well take the stairs.
 21      THE COURT:  Who's ringing?
 22      MS. CLARK:  Sorry, Your Honor.
 23      MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor?
 24      THE COURT:  Yes.
 25      MR. HODGMAN:  With the Court's permission, may I
 26 use the bailiff's phone just for a moment while we're
 27 waiting for the witness?
 28      THE COURT:  Yes.
 01      MR. HODGMAN:  Thanks.
 02      MS. CLARK:  I apologize, Your Honor.   I had given
 03 the pager to an investigator to take numbers off of it,
 04 and apparently he forgot to turn it back off.
 05      THE COURT:  Okay.
 06           All right.
 07           Mr. Kaelin, you've previously been sworn and
 08 remain under oath.   Please have a seat in the witness
 09 stand.   State and spell your name for the record.
 10      THE WITNESS:  Hi.   Brian Kato Kaelin.   B-r-i-a-n,
 11 k-a-t-o, k-a-e-l-i-n.
 13                    BRIAN KATO KAELIN,
 14 called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendant,
 15 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
 16 follows:
 17      THE COURT:  Thank you.
 18           Mr. Uelmen.
 19      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you.
 21                    DIRECT EXAMINATION
 24      Q    Mr. Kaelin, returning to the morning of
 25 Monday, June the 13th.
 26           Were you awakened that morning by police
 27 officers?
 28      A    Yes, I was.
 01      Q    Can you tell us approximately what time they
 02 woke you up?
 03      A    Between -- I think the -- approximately
 04 between 5:00 and 6:00 a.m.
 05      Q    And where were you at that time?
 06      A    In bed.
 07      Q    And would you indicate on the chart where your
 08 bedroom is located?
 09      A    Right there.
 10      Q    You're pointing to what is labeled "Kato's
 11 room" on the chart?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    All right.   How many officers were at the
 14 door when you woke up?
 15      A    four.   Four officers.
 16      Q    Four officers.
 17           Now, what's the first thing they said to you?
 18      A    Okay.   There was banging at the door and I
 19 was asleep and I was startled.
 20           I said, "who's there?"   They said, "the
 21 police."
 22      Q    All right.
 23      A    That was the first words.
 24      Q    Did you then go to the door?
 25      A    Then I looked to make sure, and I just saw
 26 four guys in suits, coat and tie, and I opened the
 27 door.   I put a shirt on and opened the door.
 28      Q    All right.
 01           And what's the first thing they said to you
 02 after you opened the door?
 03      A    Um, I don't know of the exact order.   What
 04 was my name and do I live here.   Um -- who else lives
 05 here came up.   And -- I don't know, I was shaking,
 06 so --
 07      Q    Did they ask you any questions about the
 08 whereabouts of Mr. Simpson?
 09      A    At some point it came up and I said Chicago.
 10      Q    All right.   Was that in this initial
 11 conversation at the door when they awoke you?
 12      A    I don't remember.   There was conversation
 13 where I said that, though.
 14      Q    All right.   So the first time you were asked
 15 where Mr. Simpson was, you told the officers he was in
 16 Chicago.
 17      A    I said yes, he was in Chicago.
 18      Q    All right.
 19           Did the officers ever indicate to you any
 20 concern about a suicide or murder occurring on the
 21 premises?
 22      A    Can you say that again?
 23      Q    Did the officers ever indicate to you any
 24 concern about a suicide or a murder occurring on the
 25 premises at Rockingham?
 26      A    No.
 27      Q    Did they ever indicate to you that they were
 28 concerned about any injured persons on the premises?
 01      A    No.
 02      Q    Did they enter your room?
 03      A    One officer entered my room.
 04      Q    Did they ask you about your clothing?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    What did they ask you?
 07      A    Um, he said, "what did you wear yesterday?"
 08 So I pointed out what I wore yesterday.
 09      Q    All right.
 10      A    And he looked at it.
 11      Q    Did he pick up the clothing and examine it?
 12      A    He picked up a pair of my shoes and examined
 13 it.
 14      Q    All right.   Did he look at the bottom of your
 15 shoes?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    At some point did he tell you to leave the
 18 room?
 19      MS. CLARK:  Objection; this is a little bit
 20 leading, Your Honor.   This witness is on direct, as I
 21 understand it.
 22      THE COURT:  Overruled as to that question.
 23           You can answer the question.
 24      THE WITNESS:  Oh, say it again.
 26      Q    At some point did he ask you to leave the
 27 room?
 28      A    Yes, at some point.
 01      Q    At what point was that?   How long had he been
 02 in the room?
 03      A    Well, he was -- I was -- I remember saying I
 04 thought O.J.'s plane had crashed or something and
 05 something was wrong, and I was talking to him.   And I
 06 don't remember everything I was saying, but I think I
 07 was rattling.   And after talking to him, he asked me to
 08 go out and I was with the other three guys.
 09      Q    All right.
 10           And where did they take you then?
 11      A    You know, in my room, when you walk out --
 12      Q    Yes.
 13      A    -- okay, there's cement right there.   I was
 14 right under the door there talking to them.
 15      Q    All right.
 16           And then did they take you to another part of
 17 the house?
 18      A    Yes.   After talking to me, I also pointed to
 19 Arnelle's room.   They asked me who else was here, and I
 20 said, "O.J.'s daughter Arnelle lives over there."  And
 21 so I pointed to her door.
 22      Q    And then did they take you to another part of
 23 the house?
 24      A    Yeah, after they got Arnelle.
 25      Q    All right.  did Arnelle take some of the
 26 officers into the house?
 27      A    I think so, because I don't have a key, so I
 28 know I didn't open it, so someone did.   I think so.   I
 01 think she led them in the back doorway and I followed.
 02      Q    Now up to this point, had they informed you
 03 why they were there or what they were investigating?
 04      A    No -- um, no.
 05      Q    Did you give them any further information
 06 about Mr. Simpson's whereabouts?
 07      A    Just in Chicago.   That's what I knew, he went
 08 to the airport and went to Chicago.
 09      Q    Did they ask you when he had left for Chicago?
 10      A    I -- I think so.   I don't remember.   I think
 11 I probably said it.
 12      Q    Do you recall what you said?
 13      A    That he took a limo to the airport to go to
 14 Chicago.
 15      Q    Did they ask you any questions about the Ford
 16 Bronco that was parked in front of the premises?
 17      A    When I was inside the house, they just asked
 18 where the keys were for the Bronco, if there was an
 19 extra set of keys.  So I was looking for them and I
 20 couldn't find them.
 21      Q    And at some point were you asked to leave the
 22 premises at 360 north Rockingham?
 23      A    To wait outside on Ashford.
 24      Q    All right.
 25           And what time did they ask you to do that?
 26      A    Approximately 7:30, 7:38 a.m.
 27      Q    Now, when you say "wait outside on Ashford,"
 28 you mean they actually just asked you to stand out on
 01 the street?
 02      A    Well, I was led outside and -- yeah, they
 03 asked me to kind of wait on Ashford.   And they said I
 04 was going to be taken to another station, that two
 05 officers, two uniformed officers, were going to take me
 06 down there, but it was for an interview.
 07      Q    And how were you dressed at that point?
 08      A    I don't know if I had my pajamas on or not
 09 still.   I might have.   I think I had put my jeans
 10 on.   But I had a -- I know I had a blue shirt on,
 11 blue --
 12      Q    Did they ever permit you to go back into your
 13 room after they asked you to step out of the room?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    And for what purpose?
 16      A    I think to put pants on.
 17      Q    And you were accompanied by an officer at that
 18 time?
 19      A    I don't -- I don't remember.   I don't
 20 remember if I was or not.   I think I was on my own.
 21 I'm not positive.
 22      Q    Are there any windows in the back wall of your
 23 room?
 24      A    The back wall of my bedroom, no.   There's a
 25 bathroom that has a window.
 26      Q    Would you point out to us where that bathroom
 27 is.
 28      A    It would be right here.
 01      Q    All right.
 02           And could you describe that window.
 03      A    It's a window with a screen on it, and you
 04 turn a little handle to open it up and it opens that
 05 way.
 06      THE COURT:  Swings out?
 07      THE WITNESS:  It swings out.
 09      Q    Was the window open that evening?
 10      A    I usually don't have it open, so it probably
 11 was not open.
 12      Q    You just turn a little crank and it opens it
 13 up?
 14      A    Yeah.   I only sometimes crack for a shower so
 15 the windows don't steam.
 16      Q    And you leave the crank in the window?
 17      A    I leave the crank in the window.
 18      Q    Thank you.
 19      MR. UELMEN:  Nothing further.
 20      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark.
 21      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 23                    CROSS-EXAMINATION
 26      Q    Good afternoon, Mr. Kaelin.
 27      A    Hi.   Good afternoon.
 28      Q    Now, you got woken up by the officers at
 01 about -- what did you say, between 5:00 and 6:00 a.m.?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    What time did you go to bed that night?
 04      A    I went to bed about 1:30 a.m.
 05      Q    So when they woke you up, you had maybe three
 06 to four hours sleep?
 07      A    Yeah.   About three or four hours sleep.
 08      Q    Were you pretty tired when they woke you up?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    Would you say you were a little bit
 11 disoriented when they woke you up?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    And a little bit confused about what these
 14 officers were doing here at your door at 5:30 to
 15 6:00 a.m. in the morning?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    Doesn't happen everyday, does it, sir?
 18      A    No, it doesn't happen everyday.
 19      Q    Thank goodness.
 20           And when they woke you up and they said
 21 "police" and started asking your name and whether you
 22 lived there, were you a little bit taken off guard?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    But they were asking you who else lived in
 25 your guest unit.   Is that what you understood when they
 26 were asking you who else lives here?
 27      A    Um, I -- I think I said it was O.J.'s house
 28 and I lived in the guest house, and I mentioned
 01 Arnelle's name who was living there also.
 02      Q    Now, you had a conversation -- let me ask you
 03 this.
 04           You pointed out Arnelle's unit at some point,
 05 did you not?
 06      A    Yes, I did.
 07      Q    And some of the officers went over to that
 08 unit, didn't they?
 09      A    Yes.
 10      Q    And one of the officers stayed with you; is
 11 that right?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    And while that officer stayed with you, he
 14 asked you about whether anything unusual had happened
 15 the night before, didn't he?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    And when he asked you whether something had
 18 happened the night before that was unusual, you told him
 19 about the thumps, didn't you?
 20      A    Yes, I did.
 21      Q    And then you went on to recount for that
 22 officer everything that had happened that night,
 23 including seeing the limo driver out there waiting for
 24 the defendant and seeing the defendant go to the
 25 airport; is that right?
 26      A    Say the question again slower.   At what
 27 point?
 28      Q    I'm sorry.   I do talk fast.
 01           You were telling him all the events that
 02 happened that night; is that right?
 03      A    Right.   There was -- two separate times so --
 04      Q    I know that.
 05           So first you're talking about what happened
 06 that night with this one officer standing by your guest
 07 room; is that right?
 08      A    Right.   I think that was also -- his name is
 09 Mark.
 10      Q    Mark, okay.
 11           And you were telling him what had happened --
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    -- The night before, June 12th?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    And when you told him what happened, did you
 16 tell him about the thumps?
 17      A    Yes, I did.
 18      Q    Did you tell him about being scared and
 19 thinking it might be an earthquake or a prowler?
 20      A    Yes, I did.
 21      Q    Did you then tell him that after hearing those
 22 thumps, at some point you went outside to go and check
 23 on what had caused those noises?
 24      A    At a -- now, I don't know if it was mark that
 25 time or not.   It was a detective I told that to.   I
 26 don't --
 27      Q    Might you have told  -- excuse me, let me
 28 finish.
 01           Might you have told that to Mark as well?
 02      A    I might have.
 03      Q    Okay.   And when you were telling that to
 04 Mark, when you were describing what had happened to Mark
 05 at that time, were you still kind of scared about what
 06 had caused those noises?
 07      A    That night I was scared, the night, in the
 08 sleep.
 09      Q    You mean  --
 10      A    I was thinking about that noise pretty much
 11 all night.
 12      Q    So when you went to bed that night, you were
 13 still scared about the noises.
 14      A    Yeah.   I mean, it was still -- I still wanted
 15 to know what that was.
 16      Q    And when those officers woke you up, did that
 17 make you concerned that maybe the noises you had heard
 18 were related to them being there?
 19      A    You mean if they were doing the noise?
 20      Q    No.
 21      A    What?
 22      Q    That maybe they were there investigating what
 23 caused the noises also, maybe they knew something about
 24 that?
 25      A    Oh, I didn't think that.
 26      Q    You didn't put that together.
 27      A    No.
 28      Q    But anyway, Mark -- that detective stayed back
 01 with you at the guest room and you told him about the
 02 noises; is that right?
 03      A    I can't remember positive, but I did tell the
 04 story twice and so someone wrote down -- I don't know
 05 which detective it was that wrote something down.
 06      Q    you told the story twice and you know that one
 07 detective stayed with you while the others went with
 08 Arnelle.
 09      A    When I first came out of my room?
 10      Q    Yes.
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    Okay.
 13           And so you might have told that detective
 14 about hearing the noises on your guest wall; is that
 15 right?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    Now, that bathroom window that you were
 18 talking about, how big is it?
 19      A    It's -- see this desk?   From about here to
 20 the end here, and about the same complete style, but not
 21 wooden, but it's the window.   The same style,
 22 rectangle.
 23      Q    It's a rectangle?
 24      A    So it's about a foot and three and a half
 25 feet.   It goes that way.
 26      Q    High.   So about three and a half feet high
 27 and a foot wide?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    And what side of the air conditioning unit is
 02 that on?
 03      A    If the air conditioner is facing that way, where
 04 the air would blow out, it would be on the right of it.
 05      Q    No.  Let's look at it if you walk into your guest
 06 house.
 07           Actually, let's do it on the diagram.
 08           In your unit, tell us where the bathroom would be
 09 on this diagram, the defense diagram.
 10      MS. CLARK:  For the record, can the court see where
 11 he is pointing to?
 12      THE COURT:  Yes.
 13      MS. CLARK:  He is pointing to the area where it says
 14 "sink" and "toilet" off Kato's room.
 15      Q    Where would the window be?
 16      A    Right where you enter.
 17      MS. CLARK:  He has indicated a point just after entry
 18 to the bathroom.
 19      Q    Where would the air conditioning unit be?
 20      A    Right here.
 21      Q    And you indicated you heard the thumps come from
 22 where?
 23      A    This area here.
 24      Q    The air conditioning unit -- that would be to the
 25 west side or east side of the air conditioning unit that
 26 you told the officer you heard the thumps?
 27      A    The thumps I heard to this side, to the --
 28      Q    To the west side?
 01      A    To the west side.
 02      Q    OKAY.
 03           So that bathroom window was to the east of the
 04 air conditioner, wasn't it?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    And it was a narrow window?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    Now, when you went inside and spoke to the other
 09 detective, you were seated in the bar area, weren't you?
 10      A    Yes, I was.
 11      Q    And you told that detective about hearing the
 12 thumps on the wall, didn't you?
 13      A    Yes, I did.
 14      Q    And you were pretty excited about everything that
 15 was going on, including hearing the thumps the night
 16 before, weren't you?
 17      A    I was excited about the thumps I heard?
 18      Q    And seeing --
 19      A    Everything, yes.
 20      Q    And do you recall telling that detective, at that
 21 time when you were seated in the bar, about the defendant
 22 being picked up by a limo that night; that he must -- that
 23 you thought he must have overslept because he was waiting a
 24 long time?
 25           Do you remember telling him that?
 26      A    I think I told him the story of the whole night.
 27      Q    To the detective seated at the bar?
 28      A    At the bar.
 01      Q    And to the best of your knowledge, as you were
 02 telling that detective, you thought that the defendant was
 03 in chicago?
 04      A    That he was in chicago, yes.
 05      Q    Was it the detective at the bar that asked to see
 06 the keys to the bronco?
 07      A    I don't remember that.
 08      Q    You don't remember which one?
 09      A    It wasn't at the bar when they asked that.
 10      Q    Where were you?
 11      A    I was in the kitchen then.
 12      Q    Were you moving around the house pretty much
 13 once you went inside?
 14      A    I mean, I know -- I think I put pants on at
 15 one point; but I don't know when or I don't know -- I
 16 remember going to the kitchen, and I remember the kids
 17 came.  It was a lot of confusion for me.
 18      Q    You felt pretty confused and pretty disoriented
 19 that morning after having been woken up between 5 and 6 in
 20 the morning; is that right?
 21      A    Yes.
 22           And I was going to tell you about the kitchen.
 23      Q    You went into the kitchen at some point?
 24      A    Yes.
 25      Q    Was Arnelle there?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    And you spoke to Arnelle at some point?
 28      A    At some point Arnelle came in the bar area, went
 01 back; and I believe that's when she heard the news.  I can't
 02 be positive, but it was -- just added to everything again.
 03      Q    It was a pretty confusing scene?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    And pretty upsetting?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      MS. CLARK:  May I have a moment, your Honor?
 08      THE COURT:  Yes.
 10      Q    Was it a police officer that told you about what
 11 had happened to nicole brown?
 12      A    No.
 13      Q    Who was it that told you that?
 14      A    I had heard it from the area of the kitchen.  And
 15 Arnelle kind of screamed, was upset; and I heard that.
 16      Q    And you could not tell who was saying that?
 17      A    No.
 18      Q    Was it Arnelle?
 19      A    I don't know if it was repeated to her -- I can't
 20 be positive of who said it to her, no.
 21      Q    But you heard it being said?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    Was it by a male voice or a female voice?
 24      A    It was from her voice after she had heard it.
 25      Q    So you heard her reaction; you didn't hear what
 26 was being told to her?
 27      A    Yes.
 28      Q    And from that you deduced that -- what had
 01 happened to nicole brown?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    Now, you indicated that you saw the defendant
 04 leave in a limo; is that right?
 05      A    O.J. left in a limo.  Yes, I --
 06      Q    All right.
 07      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, I am going to interpose an
 08 objection at this point.
 09      THE COURT:  Let me ask you one thing.  Are you going
 10 to be --
 11      MR. SHAPIRO:  You know what, let me just confer with
 12 cocounsel for a minute.
 13      MR. UELMEN:  Your Honor, inasmuch as the purpose of
 14 these proceedings is to determine whether Mr. Simpson
 15 should be a defendant, we would object to the recurring
 16 characterization by the prosecution of Mr. Simpson as the
 17 defendant.
 18      THE COURT:  Well, whether or not he should be a
 19 defendant is questionable.  Right now he is the
 20 defendant in this case.  I don't see a problem with his
 21 being referred to in that fashion.
 22      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, your Honor.
 23      Q    You knew he left in a limo that night; is that
 24 right?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    You did not, of your personal knowledge, see
 27 him get on a plane for chicago?
 28      A    No.
 01      Q    Now, Mr. Kaelin, you had been living there for
 02 about six months as of the night these events occurred;
 03 is that correct?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    And were you able to have friends come over and
 06 visit you in that unit?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    And you were able to, in fact, have people
 09 spend the night with you in that unit, weren't you?
 10      A    My choice, yes.
 11      Q    And you were able to use the pool facilities when
 12 you wanted to, weren't you?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    And you were also able to use the tennis court
 15 when you wanted to?
 16      A    Yes.
 17      Q    And you were allowed to come and go as you
 18 please?
 19      A    Yes.
 20      Q    Do you perform chores and odd jobs for the
 21 defendant in return for being allowed to stay there?
 22      A    No.  He never asked me to do anything.  If he
 23 said something, I would do it; but --
 24      MR. SHAPIRO:  We would object as beyond the scope of
 25 direct, unless counsel is making Mr. Kaelin her witness
 26 again, in which case the questions should not be leading.
 27      THE COURT:  Miss Clark?
 28      MS. CLARK:  That's true, your Honor.
 01           I will take him on direct.
 02      THE COURT:  All right.
 04                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 07      Q    And, Mr. Kaelin, did you -- did you perform any
 08 chores that the defendant would ask you to perform?
 09      A    Can you say that again?
 10      Q    Yes.
 11           If the defendant asked you to do things around
 12 the house, would you do them?
 13      A    Yes.  If he asked me, I would definitely do
 14 something.
 15      Q    What sort of things did he ask you to do?
 16      A    He never asked me anything, really.
 17           If I wanted to feed the dogs.  If he said, "feed
 18 the dogs," sure; But -- not paint the house or anything.
 19      Q    I don't mean that.  That would be quite a house
 20 to paint.
 21           What else did you do around there for the
 22 defendant?
 23      A    Really nothing.  There is nothing he asked me to
 24 do.  Feed the dogs is about it.
 25      Q    That's all?  Feed the dogs?
 26      A    And barely that.
 27      Q    And what?
 28      A    Barely even that.  I kind of wanted to do that
 01 sometimes.
 02      Q    Did he ever ask you to watch the property for him
 03 or stay on the property when he was gone?
 04      A    No.
 05      Q    Did he ever ask you to go and pick something
 06 up at the store for him?
 07      A    No.
 08           Well, gigi, the housekeeper, would ask me that
 09 sometimes; and I would do it.
 10      Q    Did you do odd jobs around the house, sir?
 11      A    No.
 12      Q    No?
 13      A    Odd jobs?
 14           Feeding the dogs?
 15      Q    Sure.
 16      A    Yeah.  I would do that.
 17      Q    What other things would you do?
 18      A    I guess going to the store for gigi if she
 19 needed something to be picked up.
 20           I think that's about it.
 21      Q    Anything with respect to the laundry or dry
 22 cleaning?
 23      A    I would do that, too; but my laundry.
 24      Q    Would you do anything for the defendant in that
 25 regard -- pick it up for him from the dry cleaners if he
 26 needed anything picked up?
 27      A    If he needed anything to be picked up, I would,
 28 yes.
 01      Q    Did you do any baby-sitting for the defendant at
 02 any time?
 03      A    Watch the kids?
 04           I would do that regardless, yes.  if O.J. wanted
 05 to golf, I volunteered to watch the kids.  Sure.
 06      Q    Or take them to the movies?
 07      A    Sure, yes.
 08      Q    That would be part of taking care of the kids;
 09 right?
 10      A    I would take them to a movie if they wanted to
 11 go, sure.
 12      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 13           I have nothing further.
 14      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen.
 16                    CROSS-EXAMINATION
 19      Q    Mr. Kaelin, you referred to the window in your
 20 bathroom as a narrow window?
 21      A    Rectangle.  It is rectangular shaped.
 22      Q    About 2 feet wide?
 23      MS. CLARK:  Objection.  That misstates the testimony.
 24      THE COURT:  Restate the question.
 26      Q    I am asking you how wide was it.
 27      A    I would say about 14 inches wide and, I think,
 28 about 3-1/2 feet in height.
 01      Q    All right.
 02           Is it wide enough so you could stick your head
 03 out or your body out through the window?
 04      A    If you cranked the window enough in my room, I
 05 think you could stick your head out.
 06           There is a screen there.
 07      Q    Uh-huh.
 08           Does the screen come off from inside?
 09      A    I don't know if it does.
 10           I think the screen comes off, but I don't know
 11 how it comes off.
 12      Q    From that window you can see into the walkway
 13 area behind your room, can you not?
 14      A    If I am sticking my head out?
 15      Q    Yes.
 16      A    I have never done it.
 17           I can see outside the window.
 18      Q    Can you see into the area where the air
 19 conditioner is?
 20      A    I think you could.
 21      Q    Now, when the officers were questioning you
 22 about what had happened the night before, you told them
 23 about the thumps you heard on the wall between 10 and 11
 24 p.m.; is that correct?
 25      A    Yes, I did.
 26      Q    Did you indicate you had heard any unusual noises
 27 at all after 11 p.m.?
 28      A    Nothing unusual, no.
 01      Q    All right.
 02           And you were in your room, essentially, from 11
 03 p.m. until the officers woke you up at 5 a.m., were you
 04 not?
 05      A    About 11:15 I was in my room.
 06      Q    And there was nothing that led you to be alarmed
 07 about any unusual events on the premises after 11:15, was
 08 there?
 09      A    Besides the noise?
 10      Q    YES.
 11      A    No.  That's it.
 12      Q    Did you ask Mr. Simpson's permission to use the
 13 jacuzzi on the premises?
 14      A    Yes, I did.  That night I did, yes.
 15      Q    Actually, that was the first time you had used
 16 the jacuzzi -- that evening before -- correct?
 17      A    I swam in the pool before, and you can swim into
 18 the jacuzzi and back; but I never actually sat down and had
 19 the jets on.
 20      Q    And about how often would you say you fed the
 21 dogs?
 22      A    Certain times, twice a week.  You know.  gigi,
 23 the housekeeper, would sometimes just say, "do you have
 24 time to feed the dogs?"  I went "sure."
 25      Q    So it wasn't your regular responsibility to feed
 26 the dogs?
 27      A    No, it wasn't my responsibility.
 28      Q    Just occasionally you were asked to do that?
 01      A    Yeah.
 02      Q    By gigi?
 03      A    By gigi.
 04           And sometimes I would just do it.
 05      Q    Essentially, would it be fair to say you were
 06 treated like a member of the family?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    And when you took the kids to the movies, was
 09 that as a favor for Nicole?
 10      A    Favor?
 11           I just liked doing it.  I didn't think of it as
 12 being a favor at all.
 13      Q    But nicole was the one who asked you to do that?
 14      A    Yeah.  Nicole would ask me to do it or whoever
 15 would ask me -- I don't remember exactly who would ask me,
 16 but I would do it.
 17      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you.
 18      THE COURT:  Miss Clark, anything further?
 19      MS. CLARK:  One question, your Honor.
 21                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 24      Q    Mr. Kaelin, you were not paying rent in terms
 25 of money, were you?
 26      A    At Rockingham?
 27      Q    RIGHT.
 28      A    I was not.
 01      Q    Didn't you feel like you owed it to the defendant
 02 to do things around the house when asked in return for
 03 that?
 04      A    Owed it?
 05           I mean, I did not mind at all.  I didn't think of
 06 it as owing it.  I just would do it.
 07      Q    You would do what he asked you to do?
 08      A    If he asked me to do something, I would do it.
 09      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 10      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen, do you want to have a last
 11 word?
 12      MR. UELMEN:  No, I don't think so.  The witness may be
 13 excused.
 14      THE COURT:  Now, as to the motion he is excused.  I
 15 think you have reserved cross-examining him in regard to
 16 the preliminary hearing in general.
 17           Do you wish to do that at this time, or you want
 18 to reserve it?
 19      MR. UELMEN:  I want to reserve it, with the court's
 20 permission, please.
 21      THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Kaelin.  You may step
 22 down.  You are subject to recall.
 23           Please don't discuss your testimony with anyone.
 24      MS. CLARK:  I ask he not be excused with respect to
 25 either the motion or preliminary hearing and remain on call
 26 as to both.
 27      THE COURT:  All right.
 28      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 01      THE COURT:  You haven't been excused at all; but you
 02 may step down and, I guess, go back up those elevators to,
 03 I guess, wherever you came from.
 04      THE WITNESS:  Gosh, great.
 05      THE COURT:  All right.
 06           It is a quarter to 3.  We are going to take the
 07 afternoon break at this time until 3 o'clock.
 08                (recess taken.)
 09      THE COURT:  All right.  We are again on the record in
 10 the case of people v. Simpson.
 11           The defendant is present with counsel.  The
 12 people are represented.
 13      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you, your Honor.
 14           The defense would like to call Arnelle Simpson.
 15      THE COURT:  Face the clerk, please, and raise your
 16 right hand.
 17      THE CLERK:  You do solemnly swear that the testimony
 18 you are about to give in the cause now pending before this
 19 court shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
 20 the truth, so help you god?
 21      THE WITNESS:  I do.
 23                      Arnelle Simpson,
 24 called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendant, was
 25 examined and testified as follows:
 26      THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
 27           State and spell your name, for the record.
 28      THE WITNESS:  Arnelle lorraine Simpson, A-r-n-e-l-l-e
 01 L-o-r-r-a-i-n-e.  Simpson, S-i-m-p-s-o-n.
 02      THE COURT:  Thank you.
 03           You may inquire.
 05                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 08      Q    Miss Simpson, are you related to Mr. O.J.
 09 Simpson?
 10      A    Yes, I am.
 11      Q    And how are you related?
 12      A    His daughter.
 13      Q    And how old are you?
 14      A    25.
 15      Q    Now, do you live with the -- Mr. Simpson at the
 16 family home on Rockingham?
 17      A    Yes, I do.
 18      Q    And how long have you lived there?
 19      A    For a year and four months.
 20      Q    And we have a chart to your left there that lays
 21 out the premises.
 22           Could you show us where on that chart your room
 23 is located?
 24      A    Right here.
 25      Q    All right.
 26           And you are pointing to the portion of the guest
 27 quarters marked "Arnelle's room"?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    Now, were you in that room on the morning of
 02 Monday, June 13?
 03      A    Yes, I was.
 04      Q    And were you awakened that morning by police
 05 officers?
 06      A    Yes, I was.
 07      Q    Approximately what time of the morning did they
 08 wake you up?
 09      A    It had to be about 5:30 in the morning.
 10      Q    5:30?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    And did the officers tell you why they were
 13 there?
 14      A    No, they did not.
 15      Q    Could you recount for us what was said?
 16      A    They were knocking on my door.  I went and opened
 17 the door.  There were two detectives standing there.  They
 18 asked me who I was.  I told them I was Arnelle Simpson.
 19 They said they had been outside, trying to get inside the
 20 house; that they were ringing the bell.  I said I didn't
 21 hear them.
 22           Then they asked me where my father was, and I
 23 said that I believed he was out of town.
 24           They said, "do you know how to get in touch with
 25 him?"
 26           I said, "yes, I do."
 27           They said, "can you get in touch with him?"
 28           I said, "yes, I can."
 01      Q    Now, how were you dressed at this point?
 02      A    I was in pajamas.
 03      Q    And did you lead the officers then into the
 04 house?
 05      A    Yes, I did.  I walked outside my house, outside
 06 the door of my room, and went to the front of the house,
 07 turned off the alarm and walked in the house.
 08      Q    So you walked all the way around outside, around
 09 the perimeter of the house?
 10      A    Yeah.
 11      Q    Do you want to indicate with the pointer the path
 12 you followed?
 13      A    I walked from here, this way, into the front
 14 door.
 15      Q    Indicating you crossed the rear patio area?
 16      A    Yes, right here.
 17      Q    And then around the --
 18      a    Uh-huh.
 19      Q    Did you go into the front door of the house or
 20 the door to the kitchen?
 21      A    the front door.
 22      Q    The front door?
 23      A    Yeah.
 24      Q    And you disarmed the alarm?
 25      A    Yes.
 26      Q    And you led the officers into the kitchen?
 27      A    Into the kitchen.
 28      Q    How many officers were with you at that point?
 01      A    There were two officers with me.
 02      Q    Now, when you entered the kitchen, did they ask
 03 you to make a telephone call?
 04      A    Yeah, they did.
 05      Q    And who did you indicate you were going to call?
 06      A    I said I didn't know exactly where my father was,
 07 but I could call somebody who would know where he was.
 08      Q    Who is that?
 09      A    Cathy Randa.
 10      Q    And who is Cathy Randa?
 11      A    My father's assistant.
 12      Q    Did you have Cathy's number right there?
 13      A    Not right there.  I had to walk out of the
 14 kitchen door to my car to get my phone book.
 15      Q    Where was your car parked?
 16      A    My car was parked right here.
 17      Q    And could you describe the car?
 18      A    It is a black Saab.
 19      Q    Now, you are indicating a little indented portion
 20 of the driveway leading out to Rockingham?
 21      A    yeah; right here.  My car was parked towards this
 22 end.
 23      Q    And after you obtained your telephone or address
 24 book, you went back into the kitchen?
 25      A    Yes, I did.
 26      Q    And did you place the telephone call?
 27      A    Yes, I did.
 28      Q    And do you recall about what time you placed that
 01 call?
 02      A    A quarter to 6.
 03      Q    And did you speak to Cathy Randa?
 04      A    Yes, I did.
 05      Q    Now, at this point were you aware of why the
 06 officers were there?
 07      A    Yes, I was.
 08      Q    How did you become aware of that?
 09      A    When I was walking out to my car, one of the
 10 officers followed me; and I had told him, "I need to know
 11 what is going on."  and he then told me that nicole was
 12 murdered and somebody else was with her.
 13      Q    all right.
 14           At any time up to this point, did any of the
 15 officers indicate to you that they were concerned that a
 16 suicide or murder might have taken place on the Rockingham
 17 premises?
 18      A    No, they did not.
 19      Q    Did they indicate they were concerned that anyone
 20 might be hurt or bleeding on the premises?
 21      A    No.
 22      Q    Did they ask you whether anything unusual had
 23 happened the night before?
 24      A    No.
 25      Q    You placed the call to Cathy Randa?
 26      A    Yes, I did.
 27      Q    Would you describe the conversation you had with
 28 her.
 01      A    I called Cathy and I said, "Cathy, I have some
 02 really horrible news"; and I started to cry and I handed the
 03 phone over to the detective.
 04      Q    And the remaining conversation was with the
 05 detective and Cathy?
 06      A    And Cathy.
 07      Q    At the conclusion of that conversation, did you
 08 place any other telephone calls?
 09      A    Yes, I did.
 10      Q    Who else did you call?
 11      A    I called al Cowlings, A.C.
 12      Q    And did you at some point leave the kitchen area
 13 to get dressed?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    You went back to your room?
 16      A    I went back to my room.  In fact, I made the
 17 phone call from my room to A.C.
 18      Q    And did you at some point leave the premises to
 19 retrieve the children?
 20      A    Yes, I did.
 21      Q    And where did you go to retrieve the children?
 22      A    I went down to the police station to pick up the
 23 kids.
 24      Q    And you brought them back to the premises?
 25      A    Brought them immediately back to the house.
 26      Q    At any point, then, in this process, did you
 27 place a call to Nicole's mother?
 28      A    Yes, I did.
 01      Q    And did you tell her the news?
 02      A    I attempted to tell her, and then the detective
 03 ended up telling her.
 04      Q    Now, at some point were you asked to leave the
 05 premises at 360 north Rockingham?
 06      A    Yes, I was.
 07      Q    Do you recall about what time that was?
 08      A    It had to have been around 7:15, 7:30.
 09      Q    So about 7:15 to 7:30, you had already retrieved
 10 the children and brought them back to the premises?
 11      A    Right.
 12      Q    And the officers at that point asked you to
 13 leave?
 14      A    Yes.
 15      Q    Now, at the time the officers arrived at --
 16 between 5 and 5:30 in the morning, was anyone else on the
 17 premises other than yourself and Kato Kaelin?
 18      A    No.
 19      Q    Is there a maid who lives on the premises?
 20      A    Yes, there is.
 21      Q    And what is her name?
 22      A    Gigi.
 23      Q    And gigi was not on the premises?
 24      A    No, she was not.
 25      Q    And why is that?
 26      A    she has the weekends off.
 27      Q    Every weekend?
 28      A    So far, yes.
 01      Q    And did you explain that to the officers?
 02      A    I believe I did, yes.
 03      Q    I believe -- you had returned to the premises
 04 late the night before?
 05      A    Yes.  I did.
 06      Q    And where had you been?
 07      A    At the movies.
 08      Q    And about what time did you get back?
 09      A    About 1 o'clock.
 10      Q    And you were asleep, then, from 1 o'clock until
 11 the officers woke you up?
 12      A    Yes, I was.
 13      Q    all right.
 14           Anything that caused you concern about what was
 15 going on on the premises during that entire period?
 16      A    Huh-uh, no.
 17      Q    You were unaware of any strange noises or any
 18 strange occurrences?
 19      A    No.
 20      Q    At any time did you tell the officers that they
 21 had your permission to search the premises or to seize any
 22 property on the premises?
 23      A    No, I did not.
 24      Q    At any point did any officer ask you if he could
 25 take any item of property from the premises?
 26      A    No.
 27      Q    How about any documents, letters, envelopes,
 28 anything of that nature?
 01      A    Yeah.  At one time the officer had asked me if
 02 they could take an envelope that he had written on, and I
 03 said "no" because it was a bill of mine.
 04      Q    And that was in the kitchen?
 05      A    Yes, it was in the kitchen.
 06      Q    Do you recall which officer that was?
 07      A    Lange, officer Lange.
 08      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you.
 09           Nothing further.
 10      THE COURT:  Miss Clark.
 12                     CROSS-EXAMINATION
 15      Q    Good afternoon, Miss Simpson.
 16           On the night of June the 12th, did you go out at
 17 some point that night?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    Were you staying full time at the Rockingham
 20 residence at that time?
 21      A    Yes, I was.
 22      Q    What time did you go out?
 23      A    I had been out all day.  I had left, oh, at
 24 around 10:30 and had returned at around 1.
 25      Q    You left at 10:30 in the morning?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    And you got back at 1 in the morning?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    And you had not been back in the house that
 02 entire time?
 03      A    Yes, I had.
 04      Q    When?
 05      A    At around 11:30.
 06      Q    In the morning or at night?
 07      A    Morning.
 08      Q    And you came back at 11:30 for what purpose?
 09      A    I had gone to church, and I came home to change.
 10      Q    OKAY.
 11           And you changed clothes and left again?
 12      A    Yeah.
 13      Q    At what time?
 14      A    At around 12:30.
 15      Q    And then did you come back to the house again
 16 between 12:30 p.m. and 1 a.m.?
 17      A    No, I did not.
 18      Q    So you were out that entire time?
 19      A    Yes.
 20      Q    You drive a black Saab?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    When you came home at 1 in the morning -- did you
 23 drive that day when you went out?
 24      A    Yes, I did.
 25      Q    And when you came back, did you park it in the
 26 driveway?
 27      A    Yes, I did.
 28      Q    Where did you park it?
 01      A    Right here.
 02      Q    You are showing us on the defense diagram?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    And you pointed to the area that -- just below
 05 that area is written "driveway" on the Rockingham side of
 06 the residence?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    Now, when the officers first came to your door,
 09 they asked you where your father was; is that right?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    And you indicated to them, "I believe he is out
 12 of town"?
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    You were unsure then?
 15      A    No.
 16      Q    You told them, "I believe he is out of town"?
 17      A    "I believe he is out of town."
 18           I knew he was gone, but I just didn't know where
 19 he was out of town.
 20      Q    Did you know when he had left?
 21      A    Yes, I did.
 22      Q    Did you tell them that?
 23      A    No, I did not.
 24      Q    Did you know when he was due back?
 25      A    No, I did not.
 26      Q    Did you know where he was staying?
 27      A    No, I did not.
 28      Q    And when they were asking you about your father's
 01 whereabouts, you were, I assume, concerned?
 02      A    Yes, I was.
 03      Q    And so you wanted to, I assume, find out where he
 04 was?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    And so you let the officers in so you could find
 07 that out and perhaps get their help, if needed, right?
 08      A    Yes.
 09      Q    And in order to do that, you had to disarm the
 10 alarm because it was set?
 11      A    Yes.
 12      Q    When you went into the house, were there any
 13 lights on in the house?
 14      A    I don't recall.
 15      Q    And the officers asked you to show them where the
 16 maid's room was?
 17      A    I don't recall that.
 18      Q    Do you recall them asking you about the maid when
 19 they came in?
 20      A    Yes.
 21      Q    Do you recall them asking whether she was all
 22 right or where she stayed, in what room she slept?
 23      A    No.
 24      Q    Do you recall showing them where she slept?
 25      A    No.
 26      Q    Is it you don't recall; it might have happened,
 27 but you no longer remember?
 28      A    I don't recall doing that, no.
 01      Q    Is it a fact that the maid's bedroom is off the
 02 kitchen?
 03      A    Yes.
 04      Q    And do you recall the officers asking you whether
 05 that bedroom was the maid's room?
 06      A    No.
 07      Q    You don't remember anything about that?
 08      A    No.
 09      Q    Do you recall telling the officers that you had
 10 been out all night at the movies and you just got back
 11 about 1 a.m.?
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    Now, you said that you explained to the officers
 14 that the maid has weekends off?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    Was that when you were in the house when they
 17 were asking you about where the maid was?
 18      A    No.  That's -- when I was walking from my room,
 19 inside the house, they had asked me, "does anybody else
 20 live here?"
 21      Q    And you said, "yes.  The maid does"?
 22      A    Yes.
 23      Q    And when you got into the house, did they ask
 24 where she was at that time?
 25      A    No.  They asked me outside.
 26           They had said, "does anybody live here?"
 27           I said "yes."
 28           They said "who?"
 01           I said "gigi."
 02           They asked me, "is she here?"
 03           And I said "no."
 04      Q    Were you in the house at that point?
 05      A    No.
 06      Q    You were on your way into the house?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    You went to pick up the children at the police
 09 station?
 10      A    Yes.
 11      Q    How far away was that from the Rockingham
 12 address?
 13      A    Hmm.
 14           We live in Brentwood; so -- it was in
 15 Santa Monica.  Maybe four miles away.
 16      Q    Four miles?
 17      A    Yeah.
 18           I am estimating.  I don't know really how far it
 19 is.
 20      Q    What time did you finally go to sleep the night
 21 before?
 22           You got home at 1 a.m. on June 13.  What time did
 23 you go to sleep?
 24      A    Maybe around 1:30.
 25      Q    And they woke you up just four hours later?
 26      A    Yeah.
 27      Q    Were you a little bit tired when they woke you
 28 up?
 01      A    Yeah.
 02      Q    Were you a little bit confused, seeing police
 03 officers at your door?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    Feel a little bit frazzled at seeing them and
 06 hearing what might be bad news?
 07      A    Yeah.
 08      Q    Before you heard it?
 09      A    Yeah.
 10      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 11           I have nothing further.
 12      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen, anything further?
 13      MR. UELMEN:  Nothing further, your Honor.
 14      THE COURT:  Thank you, Miss Simpson.  You may step
 15 down.  Please do not discuss your testimony with anyone.
 16      MR. UELMEN:  Defense at this time would like to call
 17 Cathy Randa.
 18      THE COURT:  Face the clerk, please, and raise your
 19 right hand.
 20      THE CLERK:  You do solemnly swear that the testimony
 21 you are about to give in the cause now pending before this
 22 court shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
 23 the truth, so help you god?
 24      THE WITNESS:  I do.
 26                        Cathy Randa,
 27 called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendant, was
 28 examined and testified as follows:
 01      THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
 02           State and spell your name, for the record.
 03      THE WITNESS:  Cathy, with a "C," Randa, R-a-n-d-a.
 04      THE COURT:  You may inquire.
 06                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 09      Q    Miss Randa, are you employed by Mr. O.J. Simpson?
 10      A    Yes, I am.
 11      Q    In what capacity?
 12      A    I am his administrative assistant.
 13      Q    And how long have you been employed as his
 14 administrative assistant?
 15      A    Almost 20 years.
 16      Q    And do your responsibilities include his
 17 scheduling and arranging for his travel?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    And in what city do you reside?
 20      A    North hollywood, California.
 21      Q    Now, were you at home on the morning of June 13,
 22 1994?
 23      A    Yes, I was.
 24      Q    And did you receive a telephone call that
 25 morning?
 26      A    I did.
 27      Q    And what time did that telephone call come?
 28      A    Approximately 5:45.
 01      Q    Now, are you certain of that time?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    Why are you certain?
 04      A    Because as I heard the phone ring, as I was
 05 running to the phone, I turned the light on; and after
 06 picking up the phone, I could see the clock.
 07      Q    I take it it is unusual to get a call that early
 08 in the morning?
 09      A    Very unusual.
 10      Q    And who was calling you?
 11      A    Mr. Simpson's daughter Arnelle.
 12      Q    And what did she say to you?
 13      A    Well, she was quite hysterical and she just said,
 14 "Cathy, a detective wants to talk to you."  A detective
 15 then got on the phone with me.
 16      Q    And did the detective tell you why he was
 17 calling?
 18      A    No.
 19      Q    What did he tell you?
 20      A    He asked if I knew where Mr. Simpson could be
 21 reached.
 22      Q    And what did you tell him?
 23      A    I asked him if the children were okay, and he
 24 didn't respond.  And I asked again, and he didn't respond.
 25 And I continued to ask, and he finally said the children
 26 were fine but he must reach Mr. Simpson immediately.
 27      Q    And what did you then tell him?
 28      A    I then gave him the phone number to the hotel in
 01 chicago where Mr. Simpson was on a business trip.
 02      Q    Now, is this a business trip that had been
 03 arranged in advance?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    How far in advance?
 06      A    Approximately two months.
 07      Q    Two months before?
 08      A    Yes.
 09      Q    And was this business related to his association
 10 with the hertz corp.?
 11      A    Yes, it was.
 12      Q    And did you give the detective the telephone
 13 number where Mr. Simpson could be reached in chicago?
 14      A    I did.
 15      Q    And was that the end of the conversation?
 16      A    He said -- he promised he would call me back.
 17      Q    And did he call you back?
 18      A    No.
 19      Q    Did you receive another telephone call shortly
 20 thereafter?
 21      A    I did.
 22      Q    And who was that call from?
 23      A    Mr. Simpson.
 24      Q    Can you tell us what time that call came?
 25      A    That was within about five minutes.
 26      Q    And did Mr. Simpson indicate that he had
 27 spoken --
 28      MS. CLARK:  Objection.  Hearsay.
 01      THE COURT:  Sustained.
 03      Q    What time did you complete your telephone
 04 conversation with Mr. Simpson?
 05      A    I would say two minutes.  It was very brief.
 06      Q    It was still prior to 6 o'clock?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you.
 09           Nothing further.
 10      THE COURT:  Miss Clark.
 11      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, may I have a moment, please?
 12      THE COURT:  Yes.
 13      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, your Honor.
 14           We have no questions of this witness.
 15      THE COURT:  All right.
 16           Thank you very much.  Please do not discuss your
 17 testimony with anyone.
 18           Mr. Uelmen.
 19      MR. UELMEN:  We would like to call Mr. Fung.
 20      THE COURT:  I assume he has arrived.
 21      MS. CLARK:  Yes, he has, your Honor.
 22           As to this witness, though, we would renew our
 23 request, under penal code section 866, for an offer of
 24 proof.
 25           I believe if all he is going to be offered for is
 26 what was earlier indicated by counsel, there is nothing
 27 relevant in his testimony.
 28      THE COURT:  I believe 866 relates to presenting an
 01 affirmative defense at a preliminary hearing.  It does not
 02 apply, I believe, to a 1538.5 motion affirmative evidence.
 03 But what is the nature of the testimony?
 04      MR. UELMEN:  To show the nature of the investigative
 05 activity that was taking place at the premises and at what
 06 time that activity was taking place.
 07      THE COURT:  And how does that relate to the issues in
 08 this case, do you believe?
 09      MR. UELMEN:  Well, your Honor, essentially, our
 10 position is the officers were conducting a search of the
 11 premises prior to the time they had obtained a warrant.
 12      THE COURT:  All right.
 13           Well, we will just -- I mean, I don't think that
 14 is really totally in issue although I think their
 15 motivation is in issue, apparently.
 16           Are you saying somehow Mr. Fung is going to --
 17 his testimony is somehow going to bear upon the existence
 18 or nonexistence of exigent circumstances at the time they
 19 entered the location?
 20      MR. UELMEN:  No, your honor.
 21           It is going to relate to the purpose of the
 22 actual invasion of the premises, which was to collect
 23 evidence of criminal activity, and to describe the nature
 24 of the activity he was engaged in in terms of collecting
 25 evidence.
 26      THE COURT:  Well, there was evidence elicited from
 27 detective Vannatter with regard to calling criminalists,
 28 waiting for criminalists to arrive and something about a
 01 presumptive test done on, I think it was, the stain on the
 02 bronco.  So it seems to me it might generally be relevant
 03 to the issues; so I will allow you to call him.
 04      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you.
 05      THE COURT:  Face the clerk and raise your right hand,
 06 sir.
 07      THE CLERK:  You do solemnly swear that the testimony
 08 you are about to give in the cause now pending before this
 09 court shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
 10 the truth, so help you god?
 11      THE WITNESS:  I do.
 13                        Dennis Fung,
 14 called as a witness by and on behalf of the defendant, was
 15 examined and testified as follows:
 16      THE CLERK:  Will you be seated.
 17           State and spell your name, for the record.
 18      THE WITNESS:  My name is Dennis Fung, d-e-n-n-i-s
 19 F-u-n-g.
 20      THE COURT:  You may inquire.
 21      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you, your Honor.
 23                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 26      Q    Mr. Fung, can you tell us your occupation?
 27      A    I am a criminalist.
 28      Q    And by whom are you employed?
 01      A    I am employed by the city of Los Angeles,
 02 Los Angeles police department.
 03      Q    all right.
 04           And could you tell us what a criminalist is?
 05      A    A criminalist is somebody who collects evidence,
 06 analyzes it and presents his findings in a court of law.
 07      Q    Now, were you called on June 13 to come to the
 08 premises at 360 north Rockingham?
 09      A    If I may refer to my notes.
 10      Q    You may.
 11      A    June 13.  Yes, I was.
 12      Q    Could you tell us what time you received the call
 13 to report to those premises?
 14      A    I received a call at approximately 5:30 in the
 15 morning.
 16      Q    all right.
 17           And how long did it take you to get to the
 18 premises at Rockingham?
 19      A    I arrived at the scene at approximately 7:10 that
 20 morning.
 21      Q    all right.
 22           Now, had you previously been to any other crime
 23 scene that morning?
 24      A    No.
 25      Q    So, actually, the first scene you were called to
 26 on June 13 was Mr. Simpson's residence at Rockingham; is
 27 that correct?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    Did you later go to visit the premises on Bundy?
 02      A    Yes, I did.
 03      Q    That was after you had completed your work at the
 04 premises at Rockingham; is that correct?
 05      A    The entire scene at Rockingham was not completed
 06 before I went to Bundy.
 07      Q    I see.
 08           So there was continuing criminalist activity
 09 going on at Rockingham at the time you left to go to Bundy?
 10      A    No.  I completed the outdoor portion of the crime
 11 scene at Rockingham and then proceeded on to the Bundy
 12 location.
 13      Q    All right.
 14           How long were you on the premises at Rockingham
 15 before you left?
 16      A    Roughly three hours.
 17      Q    And the activity in which you were engaged
 18 included the collection of swatches in order to examine
 19 stains, red stains; is that correct?
 20      A    Yes.  That's part of the collection, yes.
 21      Q    And did you also recover a glove from the area to
 22 the south of the residence?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    Now, as a criminalist are you aware of any test
 25 that can be done at the scene to ascertain whether a
 26 particular stain is human blood?
 27      MS. CLARK:  Objection.  Irrelevant.
 28      THE COURT:  Overruled.
 01      THE WITNESS:  We do not do human blood tests in our
 02 department at the scene.
 04      Q    Where are those tests conducted?
 05      A    That is done back at the laboratory, by the
 06 serology unit.
 07      Q    And how long does it ordinarily take to
 08 accomplish one of those tests?
 09      A    I have never worked in the serology unit; so I
 10 can't really give you a good estimation.
 11      Q    Were you aware of any such tests being completed
 12 with respect to any of the evidence you collected on the
 13 morning of June 13, prior to 10:45 in the morning?
 14      A    Could you repeat the question?
 15      Q    Were you aware of any such tests to determine the
 16 presence of human blood being conducted with respect to any
 17 of the evidence you collected on the premises at Rockingham
 18 avenue on the morning of June 13?
 19      A    No, I was not.
 20      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you, sir.
 21           Nothing further.
 22      THE COURT:  Miss Clark.
 24                     CROSS-EXAMINATION
 27      Q    Mr. Fung, what test did you perform on the
 28 bloodstains at 360 Rockingham avenue?
 01      A    I performed a presumptive test for blood using
 02 the reagents phenolphthalein and hydrogen peroxide.
 03      Q    And what, if any, result does that test give you
 04 with respect to stains that may or may not be blood?
 05      A    That test is a presumptive test, meaning that it
 06 can eliminate a suspected stain of being blood; and it is a
 07 good indication, if it is positive, that the stain is
 08 blood.
 09      Q    And did you perform such tests at the request of
 10 detective Vannatter at 360 Rockingham on the morning of
 11 June 13, 1994?
 12      A    Yes, I did.
 13      Q    Did you do so with respect to a white ford bronco
 14 located there?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    And with respect to blood drops on a driveway
 17 located there?
 18      A    Yes.
 19      Q    And with respect to a glove found at the south
 20 side of the property there?
 21      A    Yes.
 22      Q    And your results were?
 23      A    Those tests came back indicating the presence of
 24 blood.
 25      Q    Positive for blood?
 26      A    Yes.
 27      Q    And did you indicate those results to detective
 28 Vannatter?
 01      A    Yes, I did.
 02      MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 03      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen.
 05                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 08      Q    I am a little bit confused.
 09           Tell us again what a presumptive test tells you.
 10      A    A presumptive test can eliminate whether a
 11 suspected stain is blood or not; and it can -- it is a good
 12 indication whether a stain is blood, but it is not a
 13 confirmation.  It is not 100 percent infallible.
 01      Q    In other words, other substances than blood
 02 may give you a positive reaction to this test?
 03      A    There are a few substances reported in the
 04 literature that will give a false positive, yes.
 05      Q    All right.
 06           So when you say the test is positive for
 07 blood, you're not telling us that the test has indicated
 08 to you that the substance is in fact blood; is that
 09 correct?
 10      MS. CLARK:  Objection, Your Honor.   This is
 11 irrelevant.
 12           I went into this witness's -- the result that
 13 he obtained in order to inquire into detective
 14 Vannatter's state of mind and good faith belief that
 15 there was blood determined to be on the surfaces
 16 tested.
 17           The reliability of the test is a matter for
 18 later testimony, I'm sure, and cross-examination would
 19 be appropriate at that time.   At this point, we're
 20 inquiring into the officer's state of mind and that's
 21 all.
 22      THE COURT:  Do you expect to go at length into this
 23 at this point?
 24      MR. UELMEN:  No, Your Honor.
 25      THE COURT:  All right.
 26           The objection is overruled.
 28      Q    The results of presumptive tests were not,
 01 then, quote, positive for blood, were they?
 02      A    They are an indication that blood may be
 03 present.
 04      Q    You indicated that you performed a presumptive
 05 test of this nature on a Ford Bronco automobile?
 06      A    Yes.
 07      Q    Now was your examination limited to the
 08 exterior of the Ford Bronco?
 09      A    On June 13th, it was.
 10      Q    All right.
 11           And how many stains on the Ford Bronco did you
 12 test?
 13      A    I believe -- um, one or two.   I don't recall.
 14      Q    One or two?
 15      A    Yes.
 16      Q    Would you check your records to see whether it
 17 was one or two.
 18      A    My notes indicate that it was one.
 19      Q    Thank you, sir.
 20      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark, anything further?
 21      MS. CLARK:  One question, Your Honor, if I may.
 23                   RECROSS-EXAMINATION
 26      Q    When you indicated that there were other
 27 substances that may test positive for blood that are not
 28 blood  --
 01      A    Yes.
 02      Q    -- What are those?
 03      A    There are vegetable compounds that will give a
 04 false positive and there are some other chemicals such
 05 as permanganate and dichromate that may also give a
 06 false positive.
 07      Q    What are those chemicals?
 08      A    They're  --
 09      Q    Let me ask you a different question, sir.
 10           Are those common household chemicals?
 11      A    Normally not, no.
 12      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, I have nothing further.
 13      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen, anything further?
 14      MR. UELMEN:  Nothing further.
 15      THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Fung.   You may step
 16 down.   Please do not discuss your testimony with anyone
 17 but the lawyers.
 18      THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 19      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen, do you have additional
 20 evidence you intend to present with regard to the
 21 motion?
 22      MR. UELMEN:  That completes our evidence for the
 23 motion, Your Honor.
 24      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark, do you wish to present some
 25 rebuttal evidence with regard to the motion?
 26      MS. CLARK:  No, Your Honor, the people would -- are
 27 ready for argument.
 28      THE COURT:  All right.
 01      MS. CLARK:  We'd ask the court to receive the
 02 exhibits marked pursuant to this hearing.
 03      THE COURT:  All right.
 04           Let's see -- I don't believe you marked any
 05 exhibits with regard to this hearing, although we do
 06 have 'A' through 'H' that have been marked by the
 07 defense.
 08           There was reference to other exhibits that
 09 have been marked with regard to the preliminary hearing
 10 itself.
 11      MS. CLARK:  yes.   Nothing freshly marked.   I
 12 stand corrected.   Thank you, Your Honor.
 13           I'd ask they be admitted to the extent
 14 referred to by the people as to this hearing as well
 15 then.
 16      THE COURT:  And, Mr. Uelmen, are you moving for the
 17 receipt of the defense exhibits?
 18      MR. UELMEN:  'A' through 'H' yes, Your Honor.
 19      THE COURT:  All right.
 20           Is there any objection to the receipt of any
 21 of the defense exhibits?
 22      MS. CLARK:  Yes.   There would be an objection to
 23 Defendant's 'E'.   I still don't see the relevance of
 24 that.   Those were notes taken by detective Fuhrman.
 25           With respect to the search warrant affidavit,
 26 again, Your Honor, the people renew their objection.   I
 27 think that the court had indicated it was not going to
 28 receive that.
 01           And with respect to 'G', Defendant's 'G', the
 02 three vehicle reports concerning the Bronco, those are
 03 hearsay.   No adequate foundation was laid for their
 04 receipt, nor was any theory of relevance, I think, ever
 05 demonstrated by the defense to justify their receipt.
 06           And the rest are -- with regard to all the
 07 photographs, the people have no objection.
 08      THE COURT:  All right.
 09           Mr. Uelmen, do you wish to be heard with
 10 regard to 'E', 'G' and 'H'?
 11           With regard to 'H', the court has already made
 12 a ruling.   Unless you have something new to add, I
 13 think the record -- your record is clear that you felt
 14 that that was admissible.   That's the search warrant
 15 affidavit.
 16      MR. UELMEN:  Yes.   I believe there was a question
 17 that was permitted with respect to the representation in
 18 the affidavit that the trip was unexpected, so to that
 19 extent we believe the affidavit itself is admissible.
 20           With respect to 'E', the relevance of those
 21 notes, of course, is that they abruptly end when the
 22 detective left the premises at Bundy and to show that no
 23 contemporaneous record was made of any of the events
 24 that he was describing at the Rockingham premises.
 25           With respect to the vehicle impound reports,
 26 the reference to the coffee stains was contained in G-2,
 27 I believe.
 28      THE COURT:  All right.
 01           With regard to --
 02      MR. UELMEN:  And G-1 also indicates the time of the
 03 impound of the Bronco as being 7:30 in the morning.
 04      THE COURT:  All right.
 05           Let me take them one at a time.
 06           The search warrant affidavit, the court
 07 doesn't feel that that -- the grounds have been
 08 established to admit the entire affidavit, so the ruling
 09 stands as to that.
 10           With regard to detective Fuhrman's notes,
 11 apparently there was testimony that he didn't take any
 12 notes beyond the time that he left the first location.
 13 And, therefore, I don't feel that that then makes what
 14 he did write down at the first location admissible.
 15 The fact that he didn't take additional notes is part of
 16 the record, so I don't think that 'E' should come in.
 17           With regard to G-1, -2 and -3, there was some
 18 testimony about a coffee stain, and apparently some
 19 testimony about somebody from the media placing their
 20 coffee cup down on the Bronco and spilling it.
 21           But, nonetheless, there was no foundation
 22 established for G-1, -2 or -3 as to who made them, when
 23 they were made and the accuracy of the information
 24 contained in them.
 25           In the absence of that foundation -- and the
 26 people have raised that foundational objection -- the
 27 items are hearsay, and so 'E', G-1, -2 and -3 and 'H'
 28 would not be received.
 01           Now, with regard to the People's exhibits, you
 02 asked that they be admitted to the extent that they were
 03 utilized in the hearing on the motion, and my
 04 recollection with regard to that is that there were
 05 photos of the Bronco that were shown.
 06           I think with regard to the diagram, you mainly
 07 used the diagram that the defense prepared.   And there
 08 was some photos of the driveway area and the house and
 09 photos of the glove and that pathway area.
 10           I don't recall, just off the top of my head,
 11 which numbered exhibits -- which People's numbered
 12 exhibits those were.
 13      MS. CLARK:  Was the court asking for my assistance
 14 in that?
 15      THE COURT:  If you happen to have that information.
 16      MS. CLARK:  I do.   I believe it's 6 and 8 and 9,
 17 but I can confirm that right now, Your Honor.
 18      THE COURT:  Okay.
 19      MS. CLARK:  That's right, 6, 8 and 9.
 20      THE COURT:  And with reference to the motion then,
 21 Mr. Uelmen, are you going to be speaking to the motion?
 22      MR. UELMEN:  Yes, Your Honor.
 23      THE COURT:  All right.
 24           Does the defense have any objection to the
 25 receipt of People's 6, 8 and 9, as it relates to the
 26 motion?
 27      MR. UELMEN:  No objection.
 28      THE COURT:  All right.
 01           Then those items would be received with regard
 02 to the motion.
 03           It is the People's burden to justify, since
 04 we're acting in the absence of a search warrant.
 05           Do you wish to be heard at this time,
 06 Ms. Clark?
 07      MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, although it is the People's
 08 burden, it is the defendant's motion, and as the moving
 09 party I believe they are entitled to be heard first.
 10      THE COURT:  All right.
 11           Mr. Uelmen, do you care to be heard at this
 12 time?
 13      MR. UELMEN:  Yes, Your Honor.
 14           Your Honor, I think a good starting point for
 15 this motion is with the Fourth Amendment itself, because
 16 essentially that's what this motion is all about.   It's
 17 about the right of the people to be secure in their
 18 persons, houses, papers and effects against unreasonable
 19 searches and seizures, a right that shall not be
 20 violated, and no warrant shall issue but upon probable
 21 cause supported by oath or affirmation and particularly
 22 describing the place to be searched and the persons or
 23 things to be seized.
 24           I think what we're confronting here is police
 25 officers who have the Fourth Amendment backwards, who
 26 believe in conducting the search first and then
 27 obtaining a warrant.
 28           It's important to put this into the context of
 01 the search of a private family home where the cases
 02 uniformly recognize that the Fourth Amendment protection
 03 is the strongest and the discretion of the officers is
 04 the most limited.
 05           I don't believe there's any serious dispute at
 06 this point, although the prosecution did assert in their
 07 motion that the area of the premises at 360 north
 08 Rockingham were some sort of common entryway for
 09 multiple dwellers in the premises.
 10           I think the evidence quite clearly shows that
 11 the entire area behind the walls and fences of this home
 12 were within the area that is traditionally defined as
 13 the curtilage of a home, and as Oliver versus United
 14 States made quite clear, at common law the curtilage was
 15 the area to which extends the intimate activity
 16 associated with the sanctity of a man's home and the
 17 privacy of life, and therefore has been considered part
 18 of the home itself for Fourth Amendment purposes.
 19           And so the courts have extended Fourth
 20 Amendment protection to the curtilage, and they have
 21 defined the curtilage as did the common law by reference
 22 to factors that determine whether an individual
 23 reasonably may expect that an area immediately adjacent
 24 to the home will remain private.
 25           Every iota of the testimony that you have
 26 heard confirms the reasonable expectation of Mr. Simpson
 27 that these premises would remain private, including the
 28 maintenance of electronically controlled gates and the
 01 surrounding of the entire perimeter by a wall five and a
 02 half feet high and a fence that is even higher on the
 03 boundary between the premises and the neighboring
 04 residential premises.
 05           Now, there are some limited exceptions to the
 06 necessity of probable cause and a warrant before an
 07 entry is made into protected premises, and it does
 08 appear that the exception upon which the prosecution is
 09 placing most reliance is the exception for exigent
 10 circumstances or emergencies.
 11           It's important, of course, to note that the
 12 prosecution bears the burden of proving that they came
 13 within this exception with respect to the investigative
 14 activity that was conducted at the premises on the
 15 morning of June the 13th.
 16           The exception for emergencies or exigent
 17 circumstances is a very, very limited one.   It is
 18 limited to situations in which there is an imminent
 19 threat, and the kind of entry it permits is limited by
 20 the threat that is presented.
 21           In this case, what is being urged is an
 22 extension of the emergency or exigent circumstances
 23 exception beyond any which has been ever recognized in
 24 any reported case in the courts of California, or the
 25 Federal courts for that matter.
 26           If Your Honor examines each and every case
 27 relied upon by the prosecution in their response to this
 28 motion, you will discover that every one of these cases
 01 involves a search of the scene of a reported crime where
 02 the police officers have information that a crime has
 03 actually been committed on the premises or the premises
 04 are immediately adjacent to the scene of a reported
 05 crime, and none of these cases involve investigative
 06 activity not related to the exigency that justified the
 07 original entry.
 08           I can go through each of these cases and
 09 Your Honor will discover that they are consistent in
 10 this respect.
 11           For example, People versus Wharton involved a
 12 victim who had been reported missing and an entry to the
 13 home of the victim to seek the missing victim, and the
 14 officers found a dead body wrapped in plastic.
 15           And the issue was simply whether the officers,
 16 by exigent circumstances, were entitled to cut open the
 17 plastic wrapper to confirm the presence of the missing
 18 victim without a search warrant.
 19           In the Tamborino case cited by the
 20 prosecution, the police were responding to a radio call
 21 that a robbery and a victim was injured and bleeding on
 22 the premises that they entered.   They found blood spots
 23 outside the building and on a walkway of the apartment,
 24 and a neighbor confirmed that an injured person was
 25 inside the apartment before the officers made entry.
 26           In the Mc dowell case, once again, we have a
 27 report of an actual crime taking place on the premises
 28 and an entry to investigate the circumstances.   It's a
 01 typical hot pursuit situation where there was actually a
 02 blood trail from the murder to an adjacent house, and
 03 the officers were following that trail within 45 minutes
 04 of the discovery of a murder.
 05           In the Amaya case, again, the officers had a
 06 report of a shooting on the premises.   They observed a
 07 pool of fresh blood in front of the apartment, a trail
 08 of blood to a laundry room where they found a body of a
 09 victim, and they then entered the apartment in which the
 10 fresh pool of blood was found.
 11           And finally, Bradford, a classic hot pursuit
 12 situation, where the police were actually chasing the
 13 suspects engaged in a gun battle with them, and the
 14 court held they were thus entitled to enter the premises
 15 where the suspects had fled to.
 16           These are the kind of emergencies in which the
 17 courts have recognized exigent circumstances and
 18 permitted officers to dispense with the requirement of
 19 probable cause and the seeking of a warrant.
 20           Obviously, those don't come near to any of the
 21 circumstances that have been presented here.   We are
 22 extending the exigent circumstance exception by a
 23 distance of about two miles and by a duration of about
 24 six hours, and that is a long, cold trail for exigent
 25 circumstances.
 26           Here we have officers coming to these premises
 27 at 5:00 o'clock in the morning, at least six hours after
 28 the murders that they were investigating had occurred, a
 01 distance of two miles away from the scene of those
 02 murders.
 03           The victim -- one of the victims of those
 04 murders had been identified at 1:00 o'clock that
 05 morning, and it appears that most of the delay
 06 from 1:00 o'clock until 5:00 o'clock in the morning was
 07 consumed simply in deciding what detectives were going
 08 to investigate this homicide.
 09           We are told that four detectives, the four
 10 detectives who were most responsible for investigating
 11 the circumstances of this homicide, all converged on the
 12 residence of Mr. Simpson simply for the purpose of
 13 informing him of the tragedy that had taken place at the
 14 Bundy location, a purpose that could just as easily have
 15 been accomplished by the placing of a telephone call.
 16           The officers claim no exigency, no emergency,
 17 until they discover what Your Honor has seen as a
 18 one-eighth to one-quarter inch dried speck of substance
 19 on the door of an automobile, which could not even be
 20 confirmed as being blood after scientific investigation;
 21 a stain which was just as consistent with a dripping
 22 taco or a driver with a hang nail as with any
 23 circumstances of murder, suicide or bleeding victims on
 24 the premises.
 25           I think it's very important to bear in mind
 26 what the California Supreme Court said in the case of
 27 People versus Smith, that "the belief upon which an
 28 officer acts must be the product of facts known to or
 01 observed by him and not a fanciful attempt to
 02 rationalize silence into a justification for a
 03 warrantless entry."
 04           And that is precisely all that these officers
 05 encountered at the Rockingham premises:  silence.   And
 06 from that silence, they had conjured up horrific visions
 07 of the need to jump over the wall and enter the
 08 premises, circumstances which do not appear in any of
 09 their reports and do not appear in any written form
 10 until after the motion to suppress had been filed in
 11 this case and the testimony was presented in this
 12 hearing.
 13           Even more important is the scope of activity
 14 in which these officers engaged after their entry to the
 15 premises.   Even if we concede -- and we do not
 16 concede -- but even if we did concede that there were
 17 exigent circumstances justifying a warrantless entry to
 18 the premises, again, the scope of their activity on
 19 those premises is limited by that exigency.
 20           And that is a purpose which could easily have
 21 been accomplished in ten minutes or less to ascertain
 22 whether there were any murder victims or suicide victims
 23 or hostages or bleeding persons on the premises.
 24           Everything the officers encountered
 25 immediately after their entry to the premises confirmed
 26 that there was no such problem on the premises.
 27           Their mission essentially was accomplished
 28 prior to 6:00 o'clock in the morning.   They had
 01 accomplished the notification of Mr. Simpson.   They had
 02 made arrangements for the well-being of the children
 03 that were the subject of concern.
 04           They had ascertained or located no other
 05 victims or no reports of any other problems, with the
 06 one exception that actually came later after their
 07 mission had been accomplished of the report by
 08 Mr. Kaelin of a thumping on the wall seven hours before
 09 the officers were then engaged in investigative
 10 activity.
 11           And I think everything that happened from then
 12 on can only be described as investigative activity, the
 13 gathering of evidence of a crime, the precise activity
 14 that the Fourth Amendment commands officers obtain
 15 probable cause and a warrant before they engage in it.
 16           Again and again we heard the detectives say,
 17 "well, we didn't know what we had.   We didn't know what
 18 had happened on these premises."
 19           Well, we know what they didn't have.   They
 20 didn't have a search warrant.
 21           And if we were to carve out an exception to
 22 the Fourth Amendment for detectives who don't know what
 23 they have, in effect we would turn the Fourth Amendment
 24 on its head and we would say, "the less you know, the
 25 more you can search."
 26           Now, I know and Your Honor knows that the
 27 pundits and the cynics who are following this case
 28 suggest that this case is too high profile a case for a
 01 motion to suppress to be granted.   We do not share
 02 that --
 03      MS. CLARK:  I'm going to object, as this argument
 04 is improper, Your Honor.
 05      THE COURT:  I would ask you to confine yourself to
 06 the facts in this particular matter.
 07      MR. UELMEN:  We do not share that cynicism,
 08 Your Honor.   I think it's important for us to bear in
 09 mind that what is at issue here is the application of an
 10 exclusionary rule whose purpose is to teach.
 11           And what better vehicle do we have to teach
 12 the lesson that the Fourth Amendment is alive and well
 13 in Los Angeles.
 14           I would close with the words of justice
 15 Brandeis in Holmstead versus the United States:  "our
 16 government is the omnipotent, the omnipresent teacher
 17 for good or ill.   It teaches the whole people by its
 18 example.   If the government becomes a law breaker, it
 19 breeds contempt for law, it invites every man to become
 20 a law unto himself and invites anarchy."
 21           Thank you.
 22      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark.
 23      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 24           Well, Mr. Uelmen speaks very eloquently and
 25 with a great deal of passion in terms that are very
 26 graphic concerning the activities that transpired in the
 27 early morning hours of June the 13th.
 28           But none of the rhetoric and none of the fine
 01 quotations can change the facts as they existed on those
 02 early morning hours.
 03           He attempts to depict in very graphic terms
 04 the search or the activities that were conducted at the
 05 location of 360 Rockingham as though a Sherman tank were
 06 being driven through the backyard and being plowed in
 07 through the doors.
 08           In fact, nothing could be farther from the
 09 truth.   In fact, all of the actions that were taken by
 10 the officers in this case were clearly very carefully
 11 confined to the stated purposes that they have given to
 12 us throughout these proceedings.
 13           And I'm going to point out exactly how logical
 14 and how consistent those actions are as they match up
 15 with every single motivation they've testified to in
 16 this courtroom.
 17           Mr. Uelmen pointed out that we may have
 18 created a new exception here for officers who, quote,
 19 don't know what they have.   No, that's not a new
 20 exception, Your Honor.   As a matter of fact, I'm sure
 21 the court is aware of the case of Mincey versus Arizona
 22 in which the officers were permitted to enter a location
 23 for a limited victim or suspect search.
 24           In fact, that is exactly what occurred in this
 25 case.   They did not enter with guns drawn, they did not
 26 enter with helicopters flying overhead or backup units
 27 or anything else.   If they had suspected there was a
 28 suspect on the premises, if they had intended to go in
 01 to collect evidence, all of those things would have been
 02 done.
 03           The fact that they were not done is further
 04 evidence to the court that what they were concerned with
 05 was an emergency situation of multiple victims, and as
 06 the cases are clear -- and the people have cited them in
 07 the motion -- the officers are not confined to one
 08 purpose.   They can't be.
 09           This is a human situation.   This is not a
 10 laboratory where you pursue one objective and come to a
 11 conclusion and then you pursue another one and come to
 12 that.
 13           These things do not happen in discreet units
 14 of time, and try as one might or one would like to pin
 15 down the events into a sequential order that is neatly
 16 packaged, things do not happen that way, and that's what
 17 we heard the officers testifying to repeatedly,
 18 consistently.   In fact, even the civilian witnesses
 19 testified in that manner.
 20           Kato Kaelin, who was trying to explain, "well,
 21 it happened this way, it happened that way."   Well, we
 22 got one picture during the questioning on direct and
 23 another picture during the questioning on cross.
 24           On direct examination, you might have had the
 25 impression that the officers came straight to the door
 26 and immediately upon seeing Mr. Kaelin heard that the
 27 defendant was in Chicago.
 28           On cross-examination, we heard no, he's not
 01 sure about when that came out.   The officers went to
 02 his door, he directed them to Arnelle.   One officer
 03 stayed with him, the others went to Arnelle's room.
 04           He indicated that he then had a conversation
 05 with that detective during which he told him about the
 06 thumps on the wall.   The officer asked him, "did
 07 anything unusual occur last night?"   Again, consistent
 08 with all of his concerns about what had happened at the
 09 crime scene that might relate to the location of 360
 10 Rockingham.
 11           During the course of that conversation, Kato
 12 Kaelin indicates, "yes, I told him about the thumps on
 13 the wall.   I know I told that story twice.   I also
 14 told some detective about what I thought was -- the
 15 defendant going to Chicago in the limousine, going to
 16 the airport in the limousine, and going to Chicago.   I
 17 think I only told that one once.   And I know I spoke to
 18 another detective in the bar area, and that may have
 19 been when that conversation happened and when that
 20 information came out."
 21           Because things are happening in a jumbled mess
 22 and you have witnesses, especially a civilian witness,
 23 who is rousted out of bed in the midst of sleep,
 24 disoriented and frazzled, who is unsure of the events
 25 that have occurred at that moment.
 26           So things do not happen that discreetly, and
 27 for the officers as well.   Things were happening all at
 28 once.
 01           Now, with respect to the factual circumstances
 02 as they actually transpired, first of all, at the point
 03 that the officers leave for 360 Rockingham, the bloody
 04 crime scene -- what is in their minds is what they've
 05 just seen at 875 south Bundy.
 06           They've seen a bloody crime scene with bloody
 07 shoe prints leading away from the crime scene and blood
 08 drops to the side of them leading from the crime scene,
 09 and that tells them that someone left the scene
 10 bleeding.
 11           Moreover, they've seen a brown leather glove
 12 at the feet of one of the victims.   They know that
 13 children, small ones, have been taken away from the
 14 scene and placed in police custody because they don't
 15 know where to place those children.   They don't know
 16 into whose custody to deliver those children.
 17           They also know of the celebrity status of the
 18 victim's husband, the children's father, who lives close
 19 by.   So close by that he's the most logical person to
 20 go to.   You want to get someone quickly who can take
 21 care of those children as quickly as you can.
 22           The celebrity status of the victim -- of the
 23 victim's ex-husband is important because we know about
 24 the stalkers, we know that these things are in the
 25 officer's mind, and reasonably so because he has to be
 26 considering everything, every possibility that may
 27 occur.
 28           If he fails to take into account every
 01 possibility, then we justifiably are upset.   "Why
 02 didn't you think of that, officer?   Why didn't you
 03 protect these people?   That's your job."   And he takes
 04 it seriously.   These officers did so.   They took every
 05 possibility seriously, including that.
 06           Now, the point that they leave -- they left
 07 the crime scene, they were going to make a notification
 08 to the defendant and they were going to see what to do
 09 with his small children.
 10           That they would go to him first, who is the
 11 next of kin closest to the children, makes imminent
 12 sense; that they would go to him first because he is the
 13 nearest relative -- only two miles away, I think was the
 14 testimony -- also makes imminent sense.   And expect to
 15 find him.
 16           Now, what happens when they arrive at the
 17 location, having all of those -- all of those exigencies
 18 in mind, knowing that you have small children to take
 19 care for, knowing the kind of bloody scene that you've
 20 just left and the relative -- and the ex-wife of a
 21 celebrity like this who may be the victim of a stalker,
 22 all of these things are in their minds at the time that
 23 they go to the residence and just want to find
 24 Mr. Simpson.
 25           That's all they're looking to do.   Assure
 26 themselves everything's all right, take care of the
 27 children.   They'll be done.   And as detective Fuhrman
 28 put it, "had Mr. Simpson come to the door, it would have
 01 all been over.   We would have left."   But that didn't
 02 happen.   That did not happen.
 03           And with all of that in mind, the officers go
 04 to 360 Rockingham and attempt to raise someone inside
 05 the house.   They ring the intercom repeatedly and get
 06 no answer.
 07           Yet there are lights on.   There are lights on
 08 downstairs, there's a light on upstairs.   There are
 09 cars in the driveway.
 10           They contact Westec and find out that a maid
 11 should be there full time, and on a property of that
 12 size it's probably not unreasonable to think that
 13 someone should be there full time looking over it, and
 14 yet they don't reach someone.
 15           Then they finally get the house phone number,
 16 and they call that phone number and there's no answer
 17 once again.
 18           Now, their concern has to mount.   These are
 19 human beings, these detectives, and they know all the
 20 concerns are still pressing on them.
 21           No answer to the intercom, no answer to the
 22 house phone, and there's lights on and there's cars in
 23 the driveway.   They have to be concerned.
 24           Now the detective has indicated, "I see the
 25 car in front of the house, it seems to be parked kind of
 26 hastily, and I see what I think is a spot of blood on
 27 the door handle."
 28           They've come from a bloody crime scene where
 01 someone left bleeding.   They get to this location, they
 02 see a spot of blood.
 03           Your Honor, I don't care if it's a spot of
 04 blood as big as a dime or as big as a quarter, it's
 05 unusual to find blood on an otherwise clean car, and a
 06 car that's parked hastily; one that belongs to
 07 Mr. Simpson, as they've been able to determine, whose
 08 ex-wife has just been found dead in a bloody mess two
 09 miles away.
 10           You have to consider that all of these things
 11 are happening at once and they're in these officers'
 12 minds.
 13           At that point when they fail to reach anyone
 14 and they get the information that Westec security has no
 15 knowledge that Mr. Simpson is supposed to be away on
 16 travel, they get nobody to answer the phone, no one to
 17 answer the door and yet there's indications there should
 18 be someone there.  With the blood on the door handle,
 19 they would have been derelict in duty.
 20           It is absolutely incumbent upon them to do
 21 something at that point to assure themselves that the
 22 people inside that house are safe and secure, that there
 23 is not something horribly amiss, because they've just
 24 come from a scene so gory that nothing could be more
 25 amiss than that.
 26           And the connection directly to the household
 27 of Mr. Simpson is absolutely clear.   And if they were
 28 to stand outside and think about leaving, think about
 01 waiting until Mr. Simpson came home, while someone may
 02 have lain dying, bleeding in that location, we would
 03 justifiably be upset.   We would justifiably call them
 04 derelict in their duty, and they could not do that.
 05           So without calling for backup, without calling
 06 for a helicopter, without bullet proof vests, without
 07 guns drawn, they went over -- they decided to enter the
 08 property.   And the fact that they did none of those
 09 things I just indicated to the court is another
 10 indication of how consistent their actions were with
 11 their stated motivation.
 12           If they were looking for a suspect, if they
 13 were looking to collect evidence that -- of a crime,
 14 they would not have gone in in that unprotected manner.
 15 Nor would they have gone simply walking on the grounds
 16 to go and knock on a guest door immediately when they
 17 get to the backyard area.
 18           In the cases cited by the people and referred
 19 to by defense counsel, though -- and I'm sure the court
 20 has already read them -- one very important
 21 distinguishing factor is that in those cases the Court
 22 validated the warrantless entry into a residence and in
 23 some cases a forced entry into that residence.   These
 24 officers went in and they kicked down the doors.
 25           The minimal nature of the intrusion in this
 26 case is an important thing to bear in mind because, far
 27 from Sherman tanks going in through that backyard or
 28 using battering rams on the doors, these officers simply
 01 went into a backyard and knocked on the door of a guest
 02 house, which is an entirely reasonable thing to do under
 03 the circumstances and totally consistent with their
 04 stated motivation.
 05           If their motivation in fact, Your Honor, had
 06 been nothing more than to go and find a place to place
 07 these children with a responsible adult, given that they
 08 were left in police custody for hours at this point,
 09 their actions would be reasonable for only that
 10 motivation, but yet there was so much more, as the court
 11 is aware.
 12           Now, it is important to bear in mind that
 13 these are unfolding events, and as each event occurs,
 14 the information gathered spurs further action.
 15           So rather than going and searching for
 16 evidence, fanning out on the grounds to go and start
 17 searching under cubby -- in cubby holes and under tables
 18 and inside cabinets, they go for the straight forward
 19 thing.   They go straight to a guest house in search of
 20 someone who could assure them that either nothing was
 21 amiss and assist in the placement of the children, or
 22 confirm that something was indeed amiss in which they
 23 could offer their assistance.
 24           They went to the door of Kato Kaelin.
 25 Mr. Kaelin, as he indicated himself, was frazzled and
 26 disoriented.   They don't know who he is.   They don't
 27 know if he belongs there.   He may be a suspect himself.
 28           It's truly the case, they don't know what they
 01 have.   Is he a victim?   Is he a suspect?   They don't
 02 know.   They just have to find out.
 03           And at that point when they ask him, "well, is
 04 there someone around here who can let us into the house
 05 and find out if the defendant is okay and where he might
 06 be," he directs them to Arnelle.
 07           Now while the other detectives -- the other
 08 detectives then immediately go to Arnelle.   Another
 09 indication that they are trying to resolve a situation
 10 that they just don't know enough about.
 11           They know a bloody gory scene, they know
 12 that.   They know children in police custody for whom
 13 they have no immediate placement.   They know that.
 14 But they do not know what has gone on and they have to
 15 find out, and they have to do it soon because every
 16 indication thus far has been that someone could be
 17 bleeding or dying back there.
 18           They go to Arnelle.   The first thing they
 19 want to do is resolve where is Mr. Simpson.   That is
 20 the first thing to resolve because Mr. Simpson can
 21 dictate what is done with the children.
 22           He goes to Arnelle.   They go to Arnelle and
 23 talk to her.   In the meantime, not knowing who Brian
 24 Kaelin is, detective Fuhrman stays with him for
 25 officer's safety.
 26           Now, while the other detectives go into the
 27 house with Arnelle to find out -- to locate Mr. Simpson,
 28 Kato Kaelin is speaking to detective Fuhrman.
 01           Now, let me point out again, the actions are
 02 entirely consistent with the stated motivation.
 03           The officers don't say, "well, if you don't
 04 let us in, we're going to go bash the door down."   They
 05 don't go to bash the door down.   And they won't, once
 06 they're inside the house with Arnelle, make any attempt
 07 to search other than to find out first things first.
 08 Let's make the phone call.   They do the least intrusive
 09 things they possibly can at every bend and turn.
 10           If what they were doing there was looking to
 11 perform a general exploratory search, if this was a
 12 pretextural search, excuse to search, then you would
 13 have seen them roaming through the house.   That never
 14 happened.
 15           They went into the house with Arnelle, went
 16 immediately with her to the phone, "here, make the call,
 17 let's find him."
 18           And while they're doing that, as the events
 19 are unfolding, detective Fuhrman is speaking to Kato.
 20 Kato is telling him, "yes, something unusual happened
 21 last night.   I heard a thump on my wall."
 22           Well, that kind of matches up to the timing of
 23 what detective Fuhrman thinks might have happened --
 24 what may have happened over at the Bundy Drive location,
 25 and now he's got to think, "well, maybe someone did fall
 26 down, collapse, and is back there bleeding.   It is a
 27 dark area back there."   And hearing about three thumps
 28 on the wall (Noise made) is a very startling thing in
 01 the night.
 02           Detective Fuhrman would have been, I think,
 03 dismissable for inaction had he not gone to investigate
 04 that.   So we have yet another action that is spurred by
 05 the events.
 06           As I said, the events could not occur in
 07 discreet units of time.   You had a situation with
 08 the -- the unfolding nature of the information that was
 09 being received that demanded that further action be
 10 taken, but at every bend and turn the action taken was
 11 confined to the information that motivated it.
 12           Now, there is no indication at any point, I
 13 think, that Arnelle said the officers were rousting
 14 through the house and conducting an exploratory search,
 15 and the officers indicated they did not do so.
 16           At no point did she indicate that the officers
 17 twisted her arm or threatened her to let them into the
 18 house and make the phone calls that they did.   And in
 19 fact, it's very interesting that what she indicates is
 20 that she was allowed to go and get the children with
 21 A.C. Cowlings and within -- she said, I think, the
 22 station was four miles away.
 23           And detective Vannatter indicated that he
 24 decided to secure the residence for a search warrant
 25 within minutes of their return with the children.
 26           So within a 10 to 15 minute period, you have
 27 the discovery by detective Vannatter on the driveway of
 28 the blood drops that causes him to then determine to
 01 secure the residence, which is just about the time that
 02 Arnelle gets back with the children and A.C. Cowlings.
 03           This, again, indicates that the timing of this
 04 is a fluid thing, but there are a lot of events
 05 occurring at once, all of which are imparting
 06 information to the officers on which they have to act,
 07 and they did, and they acted reasonably.
 08           Now, once detective Fuhrman got the
 09 information from Kato concerning the thumps on the wall,
 10 I think it can't be disputed that it was incumbent then
 11 upon him to go out and investigate the source of those
 12 thumps.   But even when he did that, he did it in a
 13 manner that was consistent with the stated motivation of
 14 being in that place to begin with.
 15           Because he indicated that he walked down the
 16 path, he saw the glove, and yet he continued to walk
 17 down the path until he went all the way to the end of
 18 the property, because he thought that was the location
 19 large enough and dark enough that could have hidden a
 20 body.
 21           He went back, all the way back there and
 22 looked, leaving the evidence behind him, because the
 23 motivation of finding a victim that may need assistance
 24 or an injured party that may need assistance was the
 25 primary motivation.
 26           And although the courts have indicated in
 27 Baird and in Duncan that you may not determine that the
 28 primary motivation was the emergency, that the officers
 01 may have many motivations, one of which is legitimately
 02 the collection of evidence, yet I think it is clear in
 03 this case that the primary motivation by all of the
 04 actions taken by these officers was indeed to preserve
 05 life and to act on an emergency that may have threatened
 06 the life and limb of some party.   All of the actions
 07 taken by the officers is consistent with that
 08 motivation.
 09           And again, I would reiterate to the court, to
 10 test the validity of the assertion that they were there
 11 to preserve life and limb, the court need only ask
 12 itself, what if someone had been injured and lay
 13 bleeding near death somewhere on the grounds while they
 14 decided to go and obtain a search warrant, or simply
 15 when they failed to get a response to their ringing and
 16 phone calls?   Just leave?    What would we have said?
 17           We would have said they were derelict, we
 18 would have said that they were incompetent.   We would
 19 have said nothing good about the manner in which they
 20 fulfilled their duties because they would not have been
 21 fulfilling their duties.
 22           Instead, they did fulfill their duties.   They
 23 happened upon evidence.   It's clear that the evidence
 24 they happened upon was in an outside area and it was in
 25 an area that Mr. Kaelin had more control -- or more
 26 access to, I should say, because that was outside the
 27 outer wall of his guest unit.
 28           I'm not indicating in that regard that
 01 Mr. Simpson did not indicate an expectation of privacy
 02 within the gates surrounding his property.   But I am
 03 indicating that there is a lesser expectation of privacy
 04 with respect to an area outside the main house that is
 05 most adjacent to a guest unit occupied by someone other
 06 than the defendant who is, no matter what he may
 07 consider himself, not a member of the family, who's been
 08 living there only for six months and freely invites
 09 friends in and out and performs duties around the
 10 house.   He himself is exercising dominion and control
 11 over the area.
 12           And by indicating to officers the thumps that
 13 he heard on the wall has indicated a desire to have
 14 that -- the origin of those thumps investigated.
 15           Now, the fact that the thumps occurred hours
 16 earlier is simply no excuse for not going to investigate
 17 what might have happened to cause them.   I hope that
 18 counsel is not suggesting that a police officer is
 19 supposed to take a report from someone who indicates,
 20 "well, yes, three hours ago I heard gunshots."   "Well,
 21 three hours ago?   Forget it."
 22           Is an officer supposed to do that?   Wouldn't
 23 that be ridiculous?   Wouldn't that be horrific if an
 24 officer did that?
 25           It doesn't matter if it was seven minutes or
 26 seven hours ago.   An officer has a duty to investigate
 27 what may be a very serious situation that may be indeed
 28 life threatening, and if it was seven hours or seven
 01 minutes ago, it is incumbent upon him to go and
 02 determine if something has happened to someone because
 03 he may yet preserve life.   And the officer did exactly
 04 what he should do under the circumstances.
 05           I would reiterate to the court the cases
 06 previously cited of People versus Soldoff, People versus
 07 Bradford, and Tamborino versus Superior Court, all of
 08 which fully support the search that was conducted in
 09 this case.
 10           And in fact, counsel cited to Mc dowell as an
 11 example that was inapposite.   I disagree.   That case
 12 is very similar to the instant case.
 13           There were a couple of residences.   The
 14 actual crime scene, I think, that they found was the
 15 Bradford residence.   The decedent's residence had been
 16 searched by a previous officer and abandoned when
 17 officer Petroski, following a blood trail, followed it
 18 into and out of that residence, leaving evidence there,
 19 and continued to pursue the blood trail until he found
 20 the defendant, and only after securing the defendant
 21 went back without a warrant and collected the evidence.
 22           In this case we don't have any of the problems
 23 of abandoning the area of search and coming back hours
 24 later without a warrant.   Under these circumstances it
 25 was very clear that by the time he went back to seize
 26 that evidence, there was no exigency, there was no
 27 emergency.   The defendant was under arrest.
 28 Everything was secured.   He had ample time to go and
 01 get a search warrant.   He certainly had probable cause.
 02           Did he do so in Mc dowell?   No, he
 03 didn't.   No, he didn't.   He went and he saw all those
 04 items, he left, he went to do other things, he came back
 05 without a warrant and seized them.
 06           Certainly People versus Mc dowell makes the
 07 search issue in this case look like there's no
 08 problem.   There's nothing to talk about here.
 09           And People versus Amaya is the same.   We have
 10 a situation where the officers go in, see evidence,
 11 leave, come back in, go get other officers, go back in
 12 again, over a period of hours, and never bother to get a
 13 warrant.
 14           That was not the case here.   That was not the
 15 case.   These officers went in with a stated emergency
 16 that was reasonable to believe existed.   They acted in
 17 a manner consistent with that belief, happened upon
 18 evidence, and as soon as that evidence was found,
 19 stopped everything and got a warrant.
 20           Now, it is true that detective Vannatter
 21 called for a criminalist to examine the blood on the
 22 exterior, on the door of the Bronco.   But, again,
 23 People versus Duncan makes it clear that there is not
 24 one purpose that an officer is restricted to, nor is the
 25 court required to find that the primary motivation of
 26 any officer is an emergency or an exigent
 27 circumstance.
 28           As long as one of those -- as long as that is
 01 one of the motivations and that motivation is reasonably
 02 held, that belief is reasonably held, then the search,
 03 the warrantless search, is valid.
 04           And in that regard, counsel has cited People
 05 versus Dickson that holds for the contrary.   That's an
 06 appellate case.   That case is disapproved in People
 07 versus Duncan, which is a California Supreme Court case
 08 that came later.
 09           And in that case, People versus Duncan, the
 10 court said, and I quote:  "it is unreasonable to expect
 11 an officer to be unconcerned with the collection of
 12 evidence and the capture of criminals.   While the trial
 13 court must find that the officer believed an emergency
 14 to exist, reasonable actions taken by the officer should
 15 not preclude such a finding."
 16           An officer who is acting reasonably under the
 17 circumstances in which he finds himself, as long as one
 18 of the purposes is justifiably that of emergency -- and
 19 I think we cannot have any doubt that that existed
 20 here -- the fact that he also intended to preserve and
 21 collect evidence, should it become relevant, certainly
 22 is no reason to find invalid the genuineness of his
 23 belief in the fact that an emergency existed.
 24           Just as the officer did in Mc dowell.   When
 25 the officer in Mc dowell went running through the house
 26 following the blood trail, he saw evidence there.   He
 27 decided that it had to be preserved.   He went out and
 28 got the defendant, called for a criminalist, and went
 01 back to make sure it was preserved and photographed in
 02 place, never considering getting a warrant.
 03           In this case, especially with respect to the
 04 Ford Bronco parked on a public street with a door
 05 handle -- an exterior door handle that evidenced blood,
 06 detective Vannatter thought this may be needed to be
 07 collected.   "We may need this in the future.   We may
 08 not.   We may not."   But a careful officer, an
 09 experienced officer, a dedicated officer knows that you
 10 can never tell what you may encounter.
 11           They didn't, none of them, suspect that they
 12 were at the residence of a suspect.   If they had, do
 13 you think in a million years they would have gone over
 14 that wall without their guns drawn, without bullet proof
 15 vests, without a back-up unit, without helicopters?
 16 Never in a million years.   And that's why he indicated
 17 to you this was not a suspect's residence.
 18           "We were concerned for the occupants, not for
 19 our safety," and every action they took makes it
 20 abundantly clear that that is precisely what they were
 21 doing.
 22           Accordingly, Your Honor, the court would
 23 urge -- the people would urge this court to find that
 24 the search was reasonably undertaken for the legitimate
 25 purpose of preserving life, and additionally,
 26 Your Honor, that the car, the Ford Bronco, was in plain
 27 view, was seizable under the line of cases under Ross
 28 and its progeny, and that that does not constitute a
 01 search for which any warrant was required, especially as
 02 to the exterior door handle, which is the subject matter
 03 of this motion.
 04           And we would ask the court to admit the
 05 evidence seized prior to the issuance of the search
 06 warrant.
 07      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen, do you wish to be heard in
 08 response?
 09      MR. UELMEN:  Very briefly, Your Honor.
 10           Four very brief points.
 11           First, if we simply take the officers at their
 12 word, that their purpose in going to these premises was
 13 to notify Mr. Simpson of the murder of his wife and to
 14 arrange for the care of his children, we're left with a
 15 real mystery as to how that minute speck on the door of
 16 the Bronco all of a sudden elevated their concern to the
 17 magnitude that is being described by Ms. Clark.
 18           There is nothing logical that we can seize on
 19 that suggests that that kind of a speck, on the exterior
 20 of an automobile, parked in front of a house, gives you
 21 any reason for concern that there are victims, hostages,
 22 or bleeding people inside the premises.   It just
 23 doesn't connect.
 24           It may elevate their motivation to want to
 25 enter the premises and conduct a search, but that, we're
 26 told, is -- wouldn't in a million years have been their
 27 purpose.   They were not looking for a suspect, we're
 28 told.
 01           Now again, if we take the officers at their
 02 word, they said, "if Mr. Simpson had come to the door,
 03 even after we climbed over the wall and knocked at the
 04 door, we would have left."
 05           Well, within minutes of that knock on the
 06 door, they had accomplished their purpose.   The
 07 evidence is undisputed that the call was completed to
 08 speak to Mr. Simpson in Chicago shortly after 5:45 in
 09 the morning.
 10           The testimony of officer Fuhrman is that
 11 between 6:15 and 6:30, a half hour to 45 minutes later,
 12 is when he first engaged in his foray to explore the
 13 area to the south of the residence and the wall behind
 14 Mr. Kaelin's room.
 15           Third, Ms. Clark has said, "well, this case
 16 doesn't involve rousting, it doesn't involve Sherman
 17 tanks invading the premises."
 18           But, of course, that's not what the
 19 Fourth Amendment is designed to protect us against.   It
 20 is designed to protect our reasonable expectations of
 21 privacy.   It is designed to protect against the
 22 activity of police officers searching for evidence
 23 without probable cause and a warrant.
 24           And I don't think there can be much doubt that
 25 these officers were searching for evidence.   The first
 26 thing they did when they entered Mr. Kaelin's room was
 27 not to look for a bleeding victim but to examine his
 28 clothing, to examine the shoes he had worn the night
 01 before.
 02           Finally, I think it's important to bear in
 03 mind that the whole purpose of the Fourth Amendment is
 04 that we don't entrust our privacy to the discretion of
 05 police officers who are engaged in the process of
 06 ferreting out criminal activity.
 07           The purpose of the Fourth Amendment is to have
 08 a neutral magistrate intervene between the police
 09 officers and the citizen.   And here in California, we
 10 have magistrates a phone call away.
 11           All they had to do was pick up the telephone
 12 and they could have gotten a telephonic search warrant.
 13 And we were told by the officer, "we've never used that
 14 procedure."
 15           And we might ask ourselves, why?   Is it
 16 because they don't need to?   Is it because conjuring up
 17 this exigent circumstances or emergency exception is
 18 some sort of talisman that makes the Fourth Amendment
 19 disappear?
 20           Is it because we don't have the fortitude and
 21 the courage to say to our police officers, the
 22 Fourth Amendment means what it says?   And what it says
 23 is before you invade the privacy of a person's
 24 residence, you get probable cause, you go to a judge and
 25 you get a search warrant.
 26           Thank you.
 27      THE COURT:  All right.
 28           Is the matter submitted at this time by both
 01 sides?
 02      MS. CLARK:  The people -- the court is not inviting
 03 the people to be heard again, I take it?
 04      THE COURT:  No, I'm not.   Not at this time.
 05      MS. CLARK:  In that case.
 06      THE COURT:  All right.
 07           The court will announce its ruling tomorrow
 08 morning.
 09           We will be in recess at this time
 10 until 9:00 o'clock tomorrow.
 14         (At 4:33 p.m., a recess was taken until
 15          Thursday, July 7, 1994, at 9:00 a.m.)
 04                                        )  no. BA097211
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06             VS.                        )
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                                        )
 10                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 12                        )   SS
 22           DATED THIS 6th DAY OF July, 1994.
 24                _____________________________________
 24                      ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 25                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 27                _____________________________________
 27                       ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
 28                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER