Preliminary Hearing - July 6, 1994
0001
01 IN THE MUNICIPAL COURT OF LOS ANGELES JUDICIAL DISTRICT
02 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES, STATE OF CALIFORNIA
03 HON. KATHLEEN KENNEDY-POWELL, JUDGE DEPARTMENT 105
04 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, ) NO. BA097211
04 )
05 PLAINTIFF, )
05 )
06 VS. ) VOLUME 8
06 )
07 )
07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
08 AKA O.J. SIMPSON, )
08 )
09 )
09 DEFENDANT. )
10 _______________________________________)
10
11
11
12 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
12
13 WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, 1994
13
14
14
15 APPEARANCES:
15
16 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MARCIA CLARK
16 WILLIAM HODGMAN
17 DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
17
18
18
19 FOR THE DEFENDANT: ROBERT SHAPIRO
19 GERALD UELMEN
20 PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
20
21
21
22
22
23 SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES
23
24
24
25
25
26
26 ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
27 ROBERT GUNN, CSR #1539
27 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
28
0002
01 MOTION TO SUPPRESS
01
02 I N D E X
02 VOIR
03 PEOPLE'S WITNESS(ES): DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS DIRE
03
04 MARK FUHRMAN 5 19 26
04
05 28 26
05
06
06 PHILLIP VANNATTER 26 68
07
07
08
08
09
09
10
10
11
11 -O0O-
12
12
13
13
14
14 EXHIBITS
15
15
16 DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT(S): FOR IDENTIFICATION
16
17 E - NOTES OF OFFICER
17 FUHRMAN 9
18
18 F - SERIES OF PHOTOS 9
19
19 G-1 - IMPOUND REPORT 12
20
20 G-2 - IMPOUND REPORT 12
21
21 G-3 - IMPOUND REPORT 12
22
22
23
23
0003
01 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, 1994
02 9:04 a.m.
03 -o0o-
04
05 THE COURT: Good morning.
06 MS. CLARK: Good morning, your Honor.
07 MR. HODGMAN: Good morning, your Honor.
08 MR. UELMEN: Good morning, your honor.
09 MR. SHAPIRO: Good morning, your honor.
10 THE COURT: Once again on the record in the case of
11 people v. Simpson.
12 Defendant is present with counsel. People are
13 represented.
14 Miss Clark, for purposes of clarifying the record
15 with regard to the specific items of physical evidence that
16 we are dealing with in this motion, you had indicated to
17 the court that the people were only going to be offering
18 some items that were not recovered after the execution of
19 the search warrant; is that correct?
20 MS. CLARK: That's correct, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: And those items are the glove, in essence,
22 that was found in that pathway behind the guest quarters --
23 is that right?
24 MS. CLARK: That's one.
25 THE COURT: -- Some blood stains from the driveway
26 area --
27 MS. CLARK: That's correct.
28 THE COURT: -- And the blood stain from the door of
0004
01 the bronco?
02 MS. CLARK: That's correct.
03 THE COURT: Any other items?
04 MS. CLARK: Yes, your Honor.
05 THE COURT: And what would those be?
06 MS. CLARK: That would be the -- one of the blood
07 stains leaving the crime scene at Bundy, at the Bundy
08 address.
09 THE COURT: All right.
10 But that's not a part of this motion?
11 MS. CLARK: No.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 So it is those four items -- three items of
14 physical evidence from the simpson home and grounds or
15 vehicle that are the subject of the motion to suppress?
16 MS. CLARK: It might be -- in general, yes, your
17 Honor; that's correct.
18 It might be more than three items because there
19 are a number of blood spots on the driveway, but
20 collectively that's correct -- those three places.
21 THE COURT: And those items are enumerated in the
22 property report somewhere in items 1 through 11?
23 MS. CLARK: That's correct, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: All right.
25 I believe that detective Fuhrman is still on the
26 witness stand.
27 Sir, if you would retake the stand.
28 You have previously been sworn and remain under
0005
01 oath.
02
03 mark fuhrman,
04 having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand, was
05 examined and testified further as follows:
06 MR. UELMEN: With respect to the limitation of the
07 scope of this motion, we would like to make it clear, for
08 the record, that the defendant will then reserve a de novo
09 hearing on the issues raised by the motion to quash the
10 search warrant prior to trial. That is not being addressed
11 in this motion.
12 THE COURT: That's correct.
13 The people have indicated they are not offering
14 any items recovered in the execution of the warrant and,
15 therefore, the warrant would not be in issue in this
16 proceeding.
17 MR. UELMEN: Thank you.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION
21
22 BY MR. UELMEN:
23 Q Detective Fuhrman, we have located the notes that
24 you made in the course of your investigation in the murder
25 book at pages on 00198 through 00200.
26 Did you review those before you testified?
27 A No, I didn't.
28 Q Would you like to review them?
0006
01 A I don't think it would be necessary. Maybe
02 during the questioning, if you need to show them to me.
03 Q All right.
04 The notes begin with your observations upon your
05 arrival at the scene at 2:10 -- right? -- In the morning?
06 A Yes, sir.
07 Q Now, you indicate in these notes that Officer
08 Riske received a radio call, quote, "possible 459 suspects
09 there now, 874 south Bundy."
10 Is that a direct quotation of the radio call?
11 A Well, as much as it was relayed to me. And at
12 that time I didn't know the weight of that call, if it was
13 part of the homicide scene or it was something
14 independent.
15 That was Officer Riske giving me that
16 information. I picked up on that. I just made a notation
17 to question him later.
18 Q All right.
19 A "possible 459" refers to a possible burglary;
20 is that correct?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And it refers to, plural, "suspects."
23 Was it your understanding that there were
24 suspects who were observed at the scene?
25 A I had no knowledge other than what he told me. I
26 didn't pursue it at that point. He was just briefing us
27 slightly on the scene, what he knew. Then he took us into
28 the scene. So I just made a notation.
0007
01 Q And you also noted where that original call came
02 from, that a resident of 874 heard something across the
03 street?
04 A I'm sorry. Would you repeat that.
05 Q . . . Resident of 874 heard something across the
06 street?
07 A That's just what Officer Riske said.
08 Again, the way I take notes is I put a numeral by
09 each notation and then, as I go back and start doing the
10 investigation, I will refer back to that note number and
11 then write maybe as much as several pages on one area that
12 I have to go back to.
13 These are just quick notes I made the very first
14 few minutes I was at the crime scene.
15 Q so these notes are actually prepared while you
16 are there to keep track of all of your observations and
17 information?
18 A Yes; What to go back to, what should be noted at
19 that time. There are no measurements involved in those
20 preliminary notes. That is the first run through the scene
21 and talking to the officers.
22 Q Excellent.
23 And these three pages are all of the notes that
24 you took on the morning of June 13; is that correct?
25 A Well, I was stopped. I was in the process of
26 taking notes, putting my notes to paper; and I was told
27 that robbery-homicide would be taking over the case. I
28 stopped taking notes at that point and gave those notes to
0008
01 detective phillips, who then passed them on to detective
02 Vannatter.
03 Q So, essentially, you stopped taking notes because
04 you believed you were off the case; is that correct?
05 A No. I knew I was off the case; It was no longer
06 my case. So I stopped there because the way they conducted
07 the crime scene or their notes -- I would be giving them
08 mine and they would be taking over from that point;
09 They would review my notes up to that point and then they
10 would continue making their own from the beginning -- when
11 they arrived at the scene.
12 Q And the notes actually stop at 875 south Bundy?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q You took no notes whatsoever of any of the events
15 in which you participated at 360 north Rockingham?
16 A That's correct.
17 Q When you left the scene at 875 Bundy and went to
18 the Rockingham address, did you bring any of the evidence
19 with you that you had encountered at the Bundy scene?
20 A I touched no evidence and I offered no reports.
21 Q Now, you indicated yesterday that one of the
22 reasons that your attention was drawn to the white bronco
23 was because it was parked rather strangely, I believe is
24 the quote?
25 A When I was walking towards it, the front of the
26 truck was facing my direction of travel; and it just
27 Looked -- it just looked a little strange the way it was
28 parked.
0009
01 Q You indicated the front was much closer to the
02 curb and the back was out into the roadway?
03 A Well, it was just -- it wasn't parked parallel to
04 the curb. It looked like it was parked hurriedly or
05 haphazardly.
06 Q You indicated the wheels were turned in towards
07 the curb?
08 A They were turned in towards the curb; and that
09 would be the way the vehicle was sitting -- with the rear
10 end jutting out -- was my impression walking forward. I
11 couldn't tell you how many degrees to the right they were.
12 Q All right.
13 MR. UELMEN: Your Honor, could we mark officer
14 Fuhrman's notes as exhibit E, defense exhibit E?
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 You say that consists of three pages?
17 MR. UELMEN: Three pages.
18 THE COURT: Yes. E.
19 BY MR. UELMEN:
20 Q I am handing you what we have marked as Exhibit
21 E.
22 Are those all of the notes you took of your
23 investigation in this case?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q All right.
26 MR. UELMEN: Now, we also located among the
27 photographs supplied to the defense four pictures of the
28 bronco automobile taken the morning of June 13. If we
0010
01 could mark these defense exhibit F, your Honor.
02 THE COURT: Yes.
03 MR. UELMEN: And they are numbered 1, 2, 3 and 4.
04 Q Do those photographs accurately represent the
05 position of the bronco automobile as you observed it in the
06 early morning hours of June 13?
07 A If I could point to the photos.
08 Photo 1 we previously saw.
09 Photo 2 really doesn't show the direction I was
10 walking.
11 Photo 3, it seems the camera is more to the
12 left.
13 When I was looking at the bronco, I was several
14 feet back and I believe I was more to the right of the
15 vehicle, where the line of the vehicle seemed like the rear
16 end was out a little bit more.
17 As you can see here in photo 4, the right tire is
18 about 4 inches onto the concrete part of the asphalt
19 roadway; where the rear tire is completely on the asphalt,
20 with a couple inches to spare. And that's what I'm talking
21 about. It looked like it wasn't casually parked or
22 carefully parked. It wouldn't be how I would probably park
23 my vehicle. It just looked a little strange walking up on
24 it.
25 Q But these photographs do accurately depict how
26 the car was parked?
27 A I remembered that it was more extreme, and I am
28 not sure that this photo shows the way my view of that was
0011
01 walking up towards it from a greater distance than this and
02 a little more to the right; But I would say it would be
03 fair to say --
04 Q Are you suggesting the automobile was moved
05 between the time you saw it and the time these photographs
06 were taken?
07 A I am not suggesting that at all. I am just
08 suggesting where our photographer took the photos from it
09 doesn't really show where exactly I was walking. I was
10 walking -- almost in the middle of the roadway walking down
11 more to the right of the vehicle.
12 I am not saying it was moved. It just seems my
13 view might have given me a more extreme angle than these
14 photos show.
15 Q OKAY.
16 When you walked up to the automobile, did you
17 check to see if the engine was warm?
18 A I touched the hood, and it was not warm; but I
19 also didn't feel any moisture. Of course, I am not sure
20 how much of a dew there was that morning. I also didn't
21 look at the lawns.
22 Q All right.
23 When you first observed the stain on the door,
24 did the stain appear to be wet, or damp?
25 A I didn't touch it; and it didn't appear like it
26 was flowing, or moving. I would say it was -- appeared to
27 be dried.
28 Q I asked you yesterday about some coffee stains.
0012
01 You indicated you did not observe any food stains or
02 possible coffee stains on the car?
03 A That's true. I didn't observe them.
04 mr. uelmen: We have located three different impound
05 reports which appear in the murder book at 00108, 00110 and
06 00111; and I would ask these be marked as exhibits G-1, -2
07 and -3.
08 THE COURT: All right.
09 by MR. UELMEN:
10 Q Now, these are all vehicle investigation reports
11 related to a 1994 ford bronco, 3cwz788.
12 That's the bronco in question; is that correct?
13 A I believe it is. I don't recall the plate.
14 Q All right.
15 Now, one of these reports is filled out when the
16 automobile is moved; is that correct?
17 A Well, yes.
18 It could be filled out prior, too; but it
19 generally is, yes, when the impound is complete.
20 Q The first of these reports indicates June 13 at
21 7:30 in the morning.
22 Were you aware of the car being impounded at 7:30
23 in the morning?
24 A No.
25 Q The second of these reports, which refers to a
26 time of June 13 at 3:30 in the afternoon, 1530, notes:
27 "special instructions: take vehicle to print shack P.A.B.,
28 across street from parker center. Two coffee stains on
0013
01 hood, disregard. Not related."
02 What does that mean?
03 A Officer Don thompson, who was handling security
04 on the Rockingham gate, said when the media was at the
05 scene and there was a rush of activity, one of the news
06 people running by or walking by placed a cup on the hood of
07 the bronco; They immediately grabbed it, admonished them,
08 obviously, "don't do that again." and he informed me there
09 was coffee stains. I believe he also informed other
10 detectives at the scene of the same thing.
11 Q Now, had any yellow tape or crime scene tape been
12 placed around the automobile?
13 A No. And I believe the reason for that is we
14 didn't want to draw more attention to the vehicle than we
15 wanted at that point.
16 We had two officers assigned to -- specifically
17 just to that vehicle to secure it, and they did that; And
18 when the rush of media came by, it was really something
19 they couldn't foresee and couldn't do anything about.
20 Q Okay.
21 MR. UELMEN: If we could mark these reports, your
22 Honor, as G-1, G-2 and G-3.
23 Q Are these the vehicle reports?
24 A I have never seen these reports, sir.
25 Q I want to take you back to your --
26 A Sir, I might add, if I could, I do recognize the
27 name on the bottom of the one report. One of the authors
28 of this report is officer thompson, who talked to me at the
0014
01 scene about the coffee stains.
02 Q Is his name on the first of those reports, the
03 7:30 a.m. report?
04 A No. This is -- the time of occurrence is 1530.
05 That is officer Thompson's report. I have no knowledge
06 about the other two.
07 Q All right.
08 When you were in the room of Mr. Kaelin
09 immediately after you went to the back of the premises at
10 Rockingham, were there any windows in that back wall of
11 Mr. Kato's room -- or Mr. Kaelin's room?
12 Let me get the chart out here.
13 A I can answer that, sir.
14 There are no windows to that wall in Mr. Kaelin's
15 room.
16 Q OKAY.
17 I want to have you --
18 MR. uelmen: Could we have defense exhibit A?
19 Q Your memory is no windows in the back wall?
20 A No. There are windows in the back wall, but
21 there was no window in the wall where the air conditioning
22 duct was or west of that air conditioning duct on that
23 wall of Mr. Kato's room. No, there wasn't.
24 Q Let's have you refer to where in the wall the
25 duct was.
26 Referring to defense exhibit a, would you point
27 out where in that wall the air conditioning duct was.
28 A Mr. Kato's room is the first bungalow. The air
0015
01 conditioning duct was probably just a little off center of
02 this wall of his room, probably just to the right of his
03 bed. There's no windows west of there.
04 I am not sure if there is a window for the
05 bathroom.
06 I am positive there was a window, maybe two
07 windows, for Arnelle's room; and I am not positive in the
08 back.
09 I see a window that is depicted here, but I don't
10 recall that.
11 Q Did you make any effort to look through those
12 windows at all to see if anyone was back there?
13 A To look through which windows, sir?
14 Q The windows in the back wall of either the
15 bathroom or Arnelle's room.
16 A No, I didn't look through there. No.
17 I believe -- excuse me, but I believe this
18 window, the one window here, was the frosted type of opaque
19 window; and I am not positive, but this, I think, was a
20 higher window, elevated past my point of view. I am not
21 positive on that.
22 Q All right.
23 Would you like to write a "W" where you indicated
24 there was a window in Mr. Kato's bathroom.
25 A I am a little light of a pencil.
26 You want a "W" where?
27 Q At the location where there was a window in
28 Mr. Kato's room or the adjoining bathroom.
0016
01 A I don't recall a window in his bathroom. I said
02 there possibly might have been one, but -- I know there
03 were a couple of windows when I went past the air
04 conditioner, but I don't recall if one of them was his
05 window.
06 Q So you don't recall observing in the quarters
07 occupied by Mr. Kato a window?
08 A No, I don't.
09 Q Now, in preparing your testimony for yesterday
10 and today, did you confer with the district attorneys who
11 are prosecuting this case?
12 A Yes. We talked.
13 Q Was this just a conference between yourself and
14 the district attorneys, or were the other detectives
15 involved in the case present?
16 A No. We didn't talk about the case in the
17 presence of the detectives. In fact, at one point marcia
18 and I just talked between ourselves; but it was nothing very
19 pointed, just about the tactics of the defense and that
20 everything is going fine; "just tell everything that you
21 did" and "you are doing fine."
22 Q Now, was this after the motion to suppress was
23 filed a week ago today?
24 A I'm sorry. Are you talking about -- which
25 conversation?
26 Q The conversations with either Miss Clark or
27 Mr. Hodgman?
28 A We discussed my portion of this case prior to the
0017
01 motion to suppress. They asked me just exactly what went
02 down; and they said, "well, we are comfortable with that."
03 and that was pretty much it.
04 Q You did have not have any discussion of these
05 events after the motion was filed on June 29?
06 A We reiterated the same thing we talked about
07 before. They said, you know, "what did you do then?" much
08 the same as they would be bringing me through a testimony;
09 And they felt comfortable with what transpired and what I
10 had to say.
11 Q When you say "they," who were you meeting with?
12 A Mr. Hodgman and Miss Clark.
13 Q And were any other detectives present at that
14 time?
15 A No. I talked to them by themselves.
16 Q Now, if you were giving someone directions to go
17 to Mr. Simpson's home on Rockingham, how would you direct
18 them?
19 A From the Bundy location?
20 Q Yes.
21 A I would say, probably, to go northbound on Bundy
22 to -- there's two ways you could go: eastbound on
23 San Vicente past Cliffwood to Rockingham or go up Cliffwood
24 northbound from San Vicente -- that would probably be the
25 easiest way -- Cliffwood northbound to sunset and sunset
26 east to either Bristol circle or Rockingham and then go
27 northbound once again. Bristol circle will eventually
28 curve you around to Rockingham. Cliffwood, if you went
0018
01 northbound from sunset, would eventually bring you to
02 Ashford; and Rockingham would go directly to the house.
03 Q Wouldn't the simplest way to be go up Bundy to
04 sunset and then go left to Rockingham?
05 A The simplest on those streets is lights to go
06 across sunset and not get lost.
07 If you get to Bristol circle, it is kind of
08 confusing. There is Bristol circle, Bristol court. It is
09 kind of confusing.
10 Q If you could reiterate for us the precise time,
11 as you remember, that you first observed the glove on the
12 premises at 360 Rockingham.
13 A It is pretty hard to be precise, but I will get
14 as close as I can.
15 We arrived at approximately 5:10.
16 Q I would just like to know the time you observed
17 the glove.
18 A Give me a moment.
19 I would probably say approximately 6:15 to 6:30.
20 Q 6:15 to 6:30?
21 A Maybe it could be as early as 6; but, like I
22 said, I didn't look at my watch at that point.
23 mr. uelmen: Thank you.
24 THE COURT: Miss Clark, do you have any additional
25 questions?
26 MS. CLARK: A few. Thank you, your Honor.
27
28
0019
01 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
02
03 BY MS. CLARK:
04 Q The note that was pointed out to you by defense
05 counsel just now concerning Officer Riske, that was a radio
06 call that was given to Officer Riske?
07 A I believe so. I just -- I heard him indicate
08 that he heard the call. I don't know if it was directed at
09 his police unit or another unit and he picked up the audio
10 part of the call.
11 He just informed me of that situation. I didn't
12 know if it was related at that time.
13 Q Did you ever determine how a burglary call came
14 to be placed concerning a murder investigation?
15 A No. Once I was no longer part of the primary
16 investigative team, I was at the direction of Vannatter and
17 Lange; and they pretty much dictated the investigative path
18 we were going to take. And that's why I gave them my notes
19 and just followed their direction for the remainder of the
20 time.
21 Q What, if any, impact did that information
22 concerning the radio call received by Officer Riske have on
23 your actions or your decisions on that night or early
24 morning of June 13?
25 A Well, it would lend to the possibility there were
26 people other than the two victims at the scene, which
27 corroborated the footprints leading away from the scene.
28 It would say that someone -- a victim, a suspect -- or I
0020
01 believe there was a call that said "suspects" -- it could
02 have been one -- could also have been in the struggle in
03 front of the house. I had no idea because I never took it
04 any farther.
05 Q So did that radio call received by Officer Riske
06 have any impact on the decisions you made later concerning
07 the case, what to do as the events unfolded through the
08 early morning hours of June 13?
09 A At the Bundy location?
10 Q Right.
11 A For me, no, because I was relieved of the
12 responsibility of decision making at that point; and, as I
13 said, I was just going at the direction of detective
14 Vannatter and Lange.
15 Q Do you know whether they ever knew of that radio
16 call that Officer Riske got concerning a burglary in
17 progress?
18 A I know they received my notes; so I assume they
19 read them and they did talk to Officer Riske. I was not
20 privileged to be there when they talked to Officer Riske;
21 so --
22 Q You don't know what they found out about that?
23 A No.
24 Q all right.
25 With respect to finding the glove, after you
26 found the glove, what did you do?
27 You saw the glove on the walk. Then what did you
28 do?
0021
01 A I continued eastbound on the path that went to
02 the rear of the property; and I spent -- I am not going to
03 say a considerable amount of time -- I am going to say
04 about 15 minutes looking for a person that could have left
05 that glove there, which indicated somebody was injured. I
06 looked in all places I believed a human could secret
07 himself or collapse in that area, and then I returned to
08 the front of the residence.
09 Q So you walked all the way back to that back area
10 that you have indicated earlier on the diagram, shown here
11 behind what is marked on the defense diagram as "Arnelle's
12 room"?
13 A Behind that location, yes.
14 Q Then you walked all the way back up this path?
15 Is that what you are saying?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And all the way around through the driveway and
18 into the front?
19 A I believe detective phillips was standing in
20 front of the residence, and I spoke with him.
21 Q And when you got inside, you said you spoke to
22 the detectives?
23 A Yes.
24 I believe detective Phillips informed detective
25 Vannatter and Lange of the discovery, and they came out to
26 me in the front.
27 Q Did they come out one by one or altogether?
28 A One by one.
0022
01 Q So did you go with them each time?
02 A Yes.
03 Q And who did you go with first?
04 A Detective phillips.
05 Q And what was the route you took with him?
06 A The same route that I took originally from the
07 front entrance: directly south in front of the garage and
08 then entering the path going eastbound, continuing down,
09 explaining the areas and how and why I determined that the
10 main house was separated by this corridor from the
11 bungalows and how the architecture changed, how -- I was
12 describing that to them -- And then how I looked down and
13 saw the dark object 15, 20 feet from me and, as I got
14 closer, I realized what it was and it was right almost
15 exactly where Mr. Kaelin described a crashing noise.
16 Q And the area on the wall where he described the
17 crashing noise, was there any window near to the area he
18 described hearing the noise come from?
19 A no.
20 Q So, then, after taking detective phillips down to
21 that area and describing everything that you saw, who did
22 you take next?
23 A Detective Vannatter.
24 Q And did you do the same thing with him?
25 A Yes; exactly the same thing.
26 Q And so each time you went, you took the detective
27 all the way down to where the glove was and brought them
28 all the way back?
0023
01 A Yes.
02 Q And then did you do the same with detective
03 Lange?
04 A Yes.
05 Q Did you take any of the detectives all the way
06 back to the area behind Arnelle's room that you described
07 going to yourself earlier?
08 A I don't believe so.
09 I described to detective phillips -- I am almost
10 positive I did to both the other detectives -- I scooted
11 underneath the air conditioner -- it pretty much covered
12 the path. it was elevated, but it covered the path -- I
13 ran into the spider webs; and I told them that -- that I
14 looked in the area but I didn't see anything that would
15 lead us to believe anybody was back in that area.
16 Q When you say you scooted under the air
17 conditioner, did you have to stoop down? Is that what you
18 are saying?
19 A Yes; Scoot down. You don't have to get on your
20 hands and knees, but you have to get down low.
21 It goes on an angle. It is an air conditioner
22 that sticks out a foot and a half, 2 feet and has braces
23 that go at a 45-degree angle from the air conditioner,
24 that attach to the wall at the bottom, below it.
25 Q After you took the last detective all the way
26 back to show the glove, did you come back to the front of
27 the house?
28 A Yes.
0024
01 Q And what did you do then?
02 A I didn't do anything. I just stood there and
03 waited.
04 And I went in and I heard a discussion by
05 detective Vannatter, a comment made shortly Thereafter,
06 "we are going to have to handle this like a crime scene."
07 Q Do you know approximately what time that was when
08 you heard that discussion?
09 A No. After that I came out front.
10 To be honest with you, I was a little taken back
11 by what had transpired. We didn't enter with any intention
12 of finding anything there, and I just kind of stood out
13 there and I was really kind of collecting my thoughts.
14 When I found the glove back here on this pathway,
15 I will have to -- I have to admit to you that the Adrenalin
16 started pumping because I didn't really know what was going
17 on; and no matter if I found a victim or a suspect, I still
18 had some type of a very serious situation at that time. And
19 I think I was coming down from that a little bit.
20 Q You mean -- when you say "the Adrenalin," you mean
21 from seeing the crime scene?
22 A No.
23 Q From seeing the glove?
24 A When I found the glove and actually realized this
25 glove was very close in description and color to the glove
26 at the crime scene, my heart started pounding and I
27 realized what I had probably found.
28 When that gets going and you never get a chance
0025
01 to run it off or get rid of it, you get kind of a down
02 time; and I think I was collecting my -- not composure but
03 my thoughts a little bit out front.
04 Q So while you were collecting your thoughts and
05 relaxing after your discovery, you heard a discussion going
06 on inside the house?
07 A Yes. I walked into the front of the residence;
08 and in the kitchen, detective Lange and Vannatter were
09 discussing what had been found. I believe detective
10 phillips was in there, also. And they were discussing "we
11 really have got another crime scene here," and a search
12 warrant was brought up -- "We have to get a search
13 warrant." Detective Vannatter said that. And I don't know
14 exactly what time that was.
15 Q You were not in the frame of mind to examine your
16 watch or look at a clock?
17 A like I said before, I was kind of taken back by
18 the whole event; so -- we didn't go up there for this,
19 And --
20 MS. CLARK: May I have a moment, your Honor?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
23 Thank you. I have nothing further.
24 THE COURT: Mr. Uelmen.
25
26
27
28
0026
01 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
02
03 BY MR. UELMEN:
04 Q Detective Fuhrman, who was in charge at the
05 Rockingham scene? Which of the four detectives?
06 A Detective Vannatter.
07 Q And like yourself, detective phillips had been
08 relieved of further responsibility in the case?
09 A Well, at that time it was actually three
10 detectives that responded to the Bundy scene: myself,
11 detective Phillips and detective Roberts. He got there
12 after us; And he was interviewing witnesses, I believe the
13 witnesses that saw the dog. He had gone to West L.A.
14 station. So while we were there at the scene, we were all
15 relieved.
16 Q all right.
17 Now, with respect to the excitement you felt at
18 encountering the glove, you realized immediately that this
19 may have broken the case?
20 A I don't think it was excitement. I was caught on
21 a 2-foot path in a -- poorly lit, with a little tiny
22 flashlight, by myself, with no vest; And I must admit that I
23 think the only reason I proceeded is I felt more that I
24 might have had a victim than a suspect.
25 I don't know why I thought that. Like I said, I
26 did not believe the circumstances would unfold as they did
27 when I led these detectives up to Rockingham.
28 I continued, probably hoping that I could find
0027
01 some answer for this glove or somebody that had been
02 injured or something; but it was more alert than excitement.
03 Q And the first person to whom you reported finding
04 the glove was detective phillips; is that correct?
05 A Yes.
06 He was in front of the residence. He was the
07 first person I saw. And I said, "ron, come here. I got to
08 talk to you."
09 Q And you took detective phillips back to see the
10 glove before you even informed detective Vannatter that the
11 glove had been found?
12 A Yes.
13 Q So Vannatter learned about the glove -- what? --
14 About a half-hour after you found it?
15 A No. I think it would be within 15 minutes, give
16 or take.
17 Q You indicated you spent 15 minutes after you saw
18 the glove searching this area behind the house?
19 A I thought you meant after I talked to detective
20 phillips.
21 Yes. I did do that and then came and talked to
22 detective phillips.
23 Q And then came and talked to detectives phillips
24 and took him back?
25 A Right.
26 Q That took about another 15 minutes?
27 A Ten or fifteen.
28 Q So detective Vannatter learned about the glove
0028
01 the first time a half-hour after you discovered it?
02 A That could be very close to the time, yes.
03 MR. UELMEN: Thank you.
04 Nothing further.
05 THE COURT: Anything further?
06
07 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
08
09 BY MS. CLARK:
10 Q Detective Fuhrman, you are estimating time for us
11 now, are you not?
12 A Yes. I can't remember -- outside of at the crime
13 scene on Bundy, I didn't look at my watch much at all that
14 morning.
15 Q At the Rockingham address, again, are these
16 estimates of time as to the amount of time that elapsed
17 between certain events?
18 A Absolutely.
19 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
20 Nothing further.
21 THE COURT: Anything further, Mr. Uelmen?
22 MR. UELMEN: Nothing further.
23 THE COURT: Thank you, detective.
24 I remind you, you are not to discuss your
25 testimony with any other witness in this matter. You can
26 discuss it with the lawyers, if necessary; and that's all.
27 Thank you.
28 MS. CLARK: People call detective Vannatter.
0029
01 THE COURT: Mr. Uelmen, exhibits G-1, -2 and -3 are on
02 the witness stand. Would you mind collecting those,
03 please.
04 MR. UELMEN: Certainly.
05 THE COURT: Detective, you were sworn yesterday in
06 connection with these proceedings; so you may retake the
07 witness stand. I remind you are still under oath.
08 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
09
10 phillip vannatter,
11 recalled as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
12 having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand, was
13 examined and testified further as follows:
14 THE COURT: State your name, for the record.
15 THE WITNESS: Phillip Vannatter.
16 THE COURT: Spell your last name, please.
17 THE WITNESS: V, as in Victor, -a-n-n-a-t-t-e-r.
18 THE COURT: Miss Clark.
19 MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.
20
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION
22
23 BY MS. CLARK:
24 Q Detective Vannatter, tell us what you do for a
25 living.
26 A Yes.
27 I am a police detective, Los Angeles police
28 department, assigned to robbery-homicide division, homicide
0030
01 special section.
02 Q And how long have you been assigned to homicide
03 special section of the robbery-homicide division?
04 A I have been assigned to robbery-homicide division
05 for 15 years and homicide special section for about 8
06 years.
07 Q How long have you been on the force altogether?
08 A 25-1/2 years this month.
09 Q And how many homicides have you investigated in
10 those 25-1/2 years?
11 A Well, I have been assigned actually working
12 homicides starting 1973 and have probably been personally
13 involved in over 200 and have probably been to or assisted
14 in 5- to 600 crime scenes.
15 Q Can you tell us what the robbery-homicide
16 division does?
17 A I can tell you what the homicide special section
18 does, yes.
19 Q OKAY.
20 A We are a section set up to handle high profile or
21 very involved or serial-type murder investigations.
22 Q And in that regard, sir, with respect to the case
23 now before the court, what is your role in this case?
24 A What is my role?
25 Q Yes.
26 A I was assigned this case at -- I got the original
27 phone call on the 13th of June at 3 o'clock in the
28 morning. I responded to the scene and took charge of the
0031
01 investigation.
02 Q So you are one of the investigating officers in
03 charge of this case?
04 A That's correct, yes.
05 Q And how many others are there?
06 A Well, there's my partner, detective Tom Lange.
07 Q And is he also assigned to the robbery-homicide,
08 homicide special?
09 A Yes.
10 Q You got the call, you tell us, at 3 o'clock in
11 the morning?
12 A I got the original phone call at my home at 3
13 o'clock in the morning. That's correct.
14 Q And where did you go pursuant to that call?
15 A I was instructed to go to 875 south Bundy. I
16 prepared myself and responded to that location.
17 Q What time did you arrive?
18 A At 4:05 in the morning.
19 Q What did you see when you got there?
20 A I was met by detective phillips and detective
21 Mark Fuhrman. Detective phillips is the homicide
22 coordinator for west Los Angeles division.
23 I was told that there was a double homicide at
24 that location and that one of the victims had been
25 identified as nicole simpson.
26 Detective phillips further told me that two minor
27 children, two small children, had been taken from the
28 residence and were presently in custody at West L.A.
0032
01 division.
02 Q Now, did someone walk you through the crime scene
03 so that you could see what you had there?
04 A Yes.
05 Q Who was that?
06 A Detective phillips gave me a walk-through of the
07 crime scene.
08 Q Now, when you say "a walk-through," did you step
09 through the evidence?
10 A No. We approached the actual scene of the two
11 victims through a planter area that would have been south
12 of the actual location of the two victims; and then after
13 viewing that location, he gave me a walk through the
14 walkway that headed west, to the back of the apartment
15 building, that led to the alley.
16 Q So you stood from a position where you would not
17 disturb anything in terms of the crime scene or the
18 evidence in it?
19 A Definitely. I was standing in the foliage in a
20 planter.
21 Q Can you please describe for us the condition in
22 which you found the victims in this case?
23 A Yes.
24 Nicole Simpson was lying at the entrance gate, on
25 the walkway right in front of the front step that stepped
26 up to go up toward the residence. The gate was open.
27 And ron Goldman was lying directly north of her
28 location, in a planter area that would have been on the
0033
01 north side of the walkway.
02 Q Now, were you able to tell what the cause of
03 death was at that point?
04 A No. I could not.
05 It appeared to be massive injuries. There was a
06 lot of blood. Blood had actually drained and run down the
07 walkway towards the sidewalk. There was a lot of blood
08 there. I couldn't tell other than there was some type of
09 massive injury.
10 Q Now, were you able to see any evidence near
11 either one of the victims?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What did you see?
14 A I saw at the feet of ron Goldman a man's leather
15 glove, left-handed leather brown glove.
16 Just below that, which would have been just
17 directly southeast of that, was a blue knit cap.
18 Also, between the two victims I saw a white
19 envelope lying on the ground. There was a set of keys and
20 a pager.
21 Q Did you go into any other areas of the crime
22 scene to examine them other than that front area where you
23 saw the victims?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Where did you go?
26 A Detective phillips took me west on the walkway
27 that would be on the north side of the residence to show
28 Me -- and I observed -- bloody footprints leading -- that
0034
01 appeared to be leading from the actual crime scene, the
02 location of the two victims, to the rear of the building,
03 along the walkway.
04 I also observed as he was showing me, as we are
05 going through, blood droplets that appeared to be not
06 associated with the two victims, as if the person leaving
07 the bloody footprints was dripping blood from something, as
08 they appeared to be straight-down drops on the ground.
09 Q Did they appear to you -- those blood drops -- to
10 be alongside the bloody footprints?
11 A Yes, definitely.
12 Q When you say "footprints," were those barefoot
13 prints?
14 A No. They were shoe prints.
15 Q Could you see a heel in those prints?
16 A There was a pattern, yes. I could see a pattern.
17 Q I'm sorry. Did you say to what side of the
18 footprints you were seeing the blood drops?
19 A to the left side.
20 Q Thank you.
21 Now, having made the observations you did at the
22 crime scene, sir, did you continue to confer with the West
23 L.A. detectives, detective Fuhrman and detective phillips?
24 A Yes, that's correct.
25 Q Why did you do that if this was your case?
26 A I was awaiting the arrival of my partner, who was
27 approximately 20 to 25 minutes behind me. I instructed the
28 two West L.A. detectives we would take charge of the scene;
0035
01 and I waited for my partner to arrive to acclimate him with
02 the scene, also.
03 Q At some point did you leave the scene of 875
04 south Bundy?
05 A Yes.
06 Q Why did you do that?
07 A Well, a number of reasons.
08 Knowing that one of the victims had been
09 identified as nicole Simpson, knowing that her husband --
10 or ex-husband at that point was a very well-known person;
11 that we had two children in custody, two minor children
12 that had been taken from this very traumatic scene, we made
13 a determination to go to Mr. Simpson's residence and
14 attempt to notify him of the death before the media got
15 word of it and to also make arrangements for the
16 disposition of the two children that were his children.
17 Q So who went with you to the location of
18 Mr. Simpson's residence?
19 A There were three others besides myself. Myself
20 and my partner and detective Fuhrman and detective
21 phillips.
22 Q Why did detective phillips and detective Fuhrman
23 go with you?
24 A They had been originally involved in the
25 investigation. They were assisting us. And we went up
26 there for a number of reasons.
27 Again, I say -- also, knowing the close proximity
28 of the crime scene to where Mr. Simpson lived, it was also
0036
01 my feeling, my belief, that we needed to check the welfare
02 up there, also. This was a very traumatic, bloody scene.
03 Q Tell me, sir -- so you drove actually that night
04 from 875 south Bundy to 360 Rockingham avenue?
05 A That's correct.
06 Q Can you estimate for us about how long it took
07 you to get from 875 south Bundy to 360 Rockingham avenue?
08 A Probably not more than five minutes.
09 Q So what happened after you got to the Rockingham
10 avenue address?
11 A We drove up Rockingham north from sunset
12 boulevard to Ashford street. We turned right, east, and
13 parked at the curb and walked to the gate. And as I drove
14 in, I noticed a white ford bronco parked at the -- this
15 would be the east curb of Rockingham -- parked on the
16 Ashford south curb and got out and attempted to utilize the
17 intercom to raise someone in the home.
18 Q And the intercom you are talking about, where was
19 that located?
20 A That intercom is located on the east side of the
21 Ashford street gate. And looking at this diagram, it would
22 have been right in this area right here.
23 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has pointed
24 To -- it is hard to describe -- the area where what appears
25 to be a wall indicated up by Ashford street meets the edge
26 of the driveway that is to the right, the right edge of the
27 driveway.
28 THE COURT: All right.
0037
01 BY MS. CLARK:
02 Q Was that a button you pressed?
03 A Yes, that's correct.
04 Q When you pressed the button, could you hear
05 anything?
06 A Yes. I could hear the phone ringing inside the
07 residence.
08 Q Did you get any response?
09 A No.
10 Q When you drove to the Ashford street side, did
11 you come up Rockingham first?
12 A Yes, that's correct.
13 Q As you drove up Rockingham, did you notice
14 whether there were any cars parked outside the Rockingham
15 gate in front of the residence?
16 A Yes, I did.
17 Q What did you notice?
18 A I noticed a white ford bronco parked at the east
19 curb of Rockingham just north of the Rockingham gate to the
20 residence.
21 Q Showing you the exhibits that have been
22 previously marked collectively People's 8, can you tell me
23 if you recognize what you see there in photograph -a, -b
24 and -c?
25 A Yes. I do.
26 Q What is that?
27 A That is the ford bronco that was parked at the
28 curb.
0038
01 Q So you rang the first time and you received no
02 answer.
03 What did you do next?
04 A well, we rang the bell for a period of time,
05 probably 10 to 15 minutes, attempting to raise someone in
06 the residence.
07 There was a light on on the bottom floor. It
08 appeared to be toward the south side of the house. There
09 was also a light on in the upstairs portion of the home.
10 We rang the bell for a period of time, trying to
11 get some response; and we didn't.
12 Q Could you estimate how long you rang the bell
13 for, without getting a response?
14 A Oh, I believe it was in the area of 10 to 15
15 minutes, probably.
16 During this time I noticed a westec security
17 sign, which is a private security company that works in
18 that area; And I requested detective phillips to contact
19 them to see if we could get a telephone phone number for
20 the residence.
21 Q And did he do so?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did you have a phone with you, a mobile phone?
24 A He did. I didn't.
25 Q Did he use that to make a phone call to westec?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And after making that phone call, what happened
28 next?
0039
01 A We continued to ring the bell.
02 In the meantime I walked back around -- while the
03 other detectives were there, I walked back around and
04 looked at the ford bronco and noticed the bronco was parked
05 like it had been hastily parked at the curb, with the front
06 end a little closer to the curb than the rear end. And
07 detective Fuhrman was with me -- or there when I got there,
08 and he directed me to look in the rear of the vehicle.
09 In the rear there was a package that was
10 addressed, I believe, to Orenthal productions. There was a
11 shovel and a piece of plastic wrapped up in it.
12 Q I'm sorry, sir; But the package you said was
13 addressed to Orenthal productions, did that mean something
14 to you?
15 A Yeah. It indicated to me it was most likely
16 Mr. Simpson's vehicle because I knew his name was Orenthal.
17 Q OKAY.
18 A I asked detective Fuhrman to run a department of
19 motor vehicle registration check on the vehicle.
20 Q Did he give you the results of that check?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And what was the result?
23 A That the vehicle was registered to Hertz Corp.
24 Q And what, if any, significance did that
25 information have to you?
26 A Well, I knew that Mr. Simpson was a spokesperson
27 for Hertz Corp. I believed it was his vehicle.
28 Q So you made the observations of the ford bronco?
0040
01 A Yes.
02 Q Then what?
03 A Walked back around.
04 By this time westec had sent a unit to our
05 location.
06 Q Did you speak to them?
07 A Detective phillips did.
08 Q In your presence?
09 A Yeah.
10 I was standing back. I didn't hear the total
11 context of the conversation, but detective phillips told me
12 that he was having a hard time securing a phone number for
13 the location and they were sending a supervisor to the
14 scene.
15 Q Did you or detective phillips find out whether
16 westec had been given advance notice that the defendant was
17 going to be out of town?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And what was that information?
20 A The information was that westec had no prior
21 knowledge of any travel plans for the occupants of that
22 residence. And they also informed us there was supposed to
23 be a live-in maid at the location.
24 Q Did you wait for a supervisor from westec to come
25 out and give you the home phone number?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And what did you do in the meantime?
28 A We still attempted to ring the bell to raise
0041
01 someone in the residence. At that point I was becoming a
02 little worried. It seemed like there were lights on. We
03 knew there was supposed to be a maid there. And we were
04 getting no response.
05 During this period of time, detective Fuhrman
06 came to me and directed me back to the ford bronco and --
07 Q What did he tell you?
08 A Pardon?
09 Q What did he tell you?
10 A He told me he saw what he thought -- what he
11 believed to be blood on the car, and he directed me back to
12 the vehicle and pointed out an area along the driver's side
13 door handle of the car.
14 I looked at it; and it appeared to be blood to me,
15 also.
16 At that point I told detective Fuhrman that I was
17 really worried based on the fact we had a very violent
18 murder scene within five minutes of Mr. Simpson's
19 residence; we had no knowledge of any travel plans that he
20 had; the security company was not notified; there was
21 supposed to be a live-in maid there; there were lights on
22 in the residence; and there appeared to be blood on the
23 outside. I become very concerned at that point.
24 Q Now, at some point did the westec supervisor
25 arrive?
26 A Yeah. He was there. He came. He gave a phone
27 number to detective phillips.
28 Q And did you dial that phone number?
0042
01 A Detective phillips did with his mobile phone,
02 yes.
03 Q What was the result of that?
04 A We got an answerphone from inside the residence,
05 indicating -- the voice on the answerphone -- something to
06 the extent, "this is O.J. I am not here. Leave a
07 Message" -- Something like that.
08 Q So there was no response using the phone number?
09 A No. There was an answerphone.
10 Q So at this point, having received no response
11 through phone calls to the house or ringing at the gate,
12 with lights on in the house and all that you learned from
13 westec, you saw the blood on the bronco?
14 A That's correct.
15 Q What did you decide to do?
16 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I am going to object to the
17 form of the question.
18 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Uelmen is apparently
19 handling this part of the motion.
20 MR. SHAPIRO: I am going to do this witness.
21 THE COURT: You are going to do it?
22 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes. So I would make an objection at
23 this point in time that the question -- 90 percent of it is
24 restating his testimony.
25 The question was what did you do next.
26 Motion to strike the question.
27 THE COURT: The question is not evidence.
28 MR. SHAPIRO: I understand that, but we object to the
0043
01 form of the question.
02 THE COURT: Miss Clark, I really am paying attention.
03 You don't have to repeat everything.
04 MS. CLARK: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to indicate you
05 weren't. I was just making a foundational showing with the
06 officer to bring him along.
07 Q So based on all you knew, what did you decide to
08 do?
09 A I conferred with my partner very briefly, told
10 him my concerns and made a decision we should go in there
11 to check and see if everything was okay.
12 Q What were your concerns, sir?
13 A Well, my concern was, again, we were within five
14 minutes of a very, very brutal murder scene. I knew the
15 scene was connected with Mr. Simpson because it was -- his
16 ex-wife and children were there.
17 After arriving there and learning that no one had
18 any knowledge of any prior travel plans, seeing lights on
19 in the residence, being told that there should be a live-in
20 maid, I was concerned that something had occurred there,
21 whether I had a second murder scene, whether I had someone
22 injured, whether I had someone that was stalking
23 Mr. Simpson and his wife, whatever.
24 I became concerned someone could be hurt or
25 injured in that location.
26 Q At that point, how long had you been outside the
27 residence at 360 Rockingham, attempting to reach someone
28 inside?
0044
01 A I would have to estimate that. I would say in
02 the vicinity of 40 minutes.
03
04
0045
01 Q Did you make any attempt to verify whether the
02 blood, what you thought was blood on the Bronco, was
03 indeed blood?
04 A Yes. After I was shown the area and come to
05 the conclusion that it looked like blood to me, I
06 requested a criminalist to respond to my location,
07 knowing that regardless of what I had there, whether I
08 had another scene, someone injured or whatever, there
09 was going to have to be collection of evidence. So I
10 requested a criminalist respond to my location.
11 Q And to confirm or refute what you thought was
12 blood?
13 A Exactly, yes.
14 Q So at that point, what did you decide to do?
15 A Go over the wall.
16 Q Did you go over the wall?
17 A No. No. I asked detective Fuhrman to.
18 He's younger and I believe probably a little more
19 athletic than me, so I asked him to go over the wall.
20 Q And he did?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What happened next?
23 A He opened the gate by releasing a hinge, and
24 we walked to the front door of the residence, knocked on
25 the door several times, got no response.
26 Q After knocking several times and getting no
27 response, what did you do next?
28 A Again, I still had the concern that there
0046
01 could be -- that this could be a second crime scene, a
02 second murder scene. So we began checking the property
03 to insure that no one was hurt, injured or not a second
04 scene there.
05 So we moved from the front door area around
06 the north side of the residence to check the area to
07 make sure no one was down or whatever, and moved to the
08 back of the residence.
09 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness was
10 pointing to the path indicated by two parallel lines
11 curved through what appears to be an indication of
12 foliage on the illustration, on the Ashford side of the
13 residence.
14 BY MS. CLARK:
15 Q And did you go -- where did you go when you
16 went up through that Ashford side of the residence?
17 A I was actually behind, my partner and
18 detective Phillips were in front, and as I walked
19 through, I noticed a pool area, a tennis court area
20 behind, and I was looking -- actually, I was looking to
21 see if I could see anything on the grounds as I'm going
22 back.
23 Q What do you mean by "anything"?
24 A Any persons down, anybody hurt, anything. I
25 didn't really know at that point what I had or what I
26 was looking for.
27 Q Did you -- so you were just walking back there
28 and scanning the area?
0047
01 A Yes. As I walked back on the walkway.
02 Q Was it lit back there?
03 A No.
04 Q What was the lighting like?
05 A No, no, it was dark.
06 Q Where did you go?
07 A I followed detective Phillips and my partner,
08 Detective Lange, to a guest house area which is at the
09 rear location on the south side of the property.
10 Q Do you see that indicated on the defendant's
11 exhibit?
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q Can you point it out for us.
14 A Yes. I crossed along the back of the
15 residence, between the pool and the home, into this
16 area.
17 MS. CLARK: Shall I hold it up, Your Honor, so you
18 can see?
19 THE COURT: That's all right. If I stand up, I
20 can see.
21 BY MS. CLARK:
22 Q Can you point that out for the court, please?
23 A Yes. We came down the walkway, around the
24 back of the residence, observed this area and walked
25 over here and started to knock on the doorway.
26 Q And is that the area on the diagram marked
27 "Kato's room"?
28 A That's correct, yes.
0048
01 Q Were you standing at the door of Kato's room
02 when someone knocked?
03 A I was standing back. I was up -- there's, I
04 believe, three steps that go down to a walkway to the
05 door. I was standing up at the top of the steps when
06 detective Phillips knocked on the door.
07 Q What happened next?
08 A The door was answered fairly quickly by -- it
09 turned out to be Brian Kaelin.
10 Detective Phillips asked him if there was
11 anybody else on the property, and he said yes, Arnelle
12 Simpson was in the room next door, which would be the
13 room which would be directly south of where he was at.
14 Q On the defense diagram?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And is that marked as "Arnelle's room" on the
17 diagram?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q Prior to doing so, did he or you or anyone in
20 your presence inform Kato that -- what was going on,
21 what had transpired?
22 A No one did in my presence, no.
23 Q Do you know what, if anything, they gave him
24 as a reason for needing to contact someone who could
25 gain access to the main house?
26 A You know, I didn't talk to him at that time.
27 I don't really know.
28 Q You don't know what the conversation was with
0049
01 him.
02 A No.
03 Q After he -- after this Kato directed you to
04 Arnelle's room, what did you do?
05 A I followed my partner. My partner knocked on
06 the door, and it was fairly quickly opened by Arnelle
07 Simpson.
08 Q So you did not remain with Kato.
09 A No.
10 Q Did anyone?
11 A Detective Fuhrman, I believe, remained with
12 Kato at that point.
13 Q When you went to Arnelle's room, what
14 happened?
15 A She answered the door, and I believe detective
16 Phillips had come up. And detective Phillips told her
17 that we needed to get in touch with her father, did she
18 know where he was at, and she responded -- she answered
19 the question with another question. She pointed toward
20 the house and said, "isn't he here?"
21 Q Indicating the house when she said "here."
22 A Yes.
23 And I asked her, "well, is he? I don't know.
24 Is he here?"
25 And she looked sort of quizzical and she says
26 at that point -- either -- I believe myself, I asked
27 her, "do you have a key? Can we check to see if your
28 father is here? We need to get in touch with him."
0050
01 And she said, "yes, I have a key," and she
02 took us into the house.
03 Q Did you or anyone in your presence inform her
04 of why you were there in these early morning hours
05 asking about her father?
06 A I believe she was informed as we walked toward
07 the house by my partner that we were investigating a
08 double homicide that involved Nicole Brown.
09 Q Was there any indication given to her at her
10 door, at her door of the guest unit, that there was
11 something going on, an emergency?
12 A Yeah. That it was an emergency, that we
13 needed to contact her father.
14 Q So she opened the door with a key?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And invited you in?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Once you got in the house, what did you do?
19 A I immediately asked her -- knowing that there
20 was supposed to be a maid there, I asked her, "where is
21 the maid's quarters? Isn't there supposed to be a maid
22 here?"
23 And she took me through the back of the house
24 into the kitchen to an area off the utility room that
25 would be on the south side of the kitchen.
26 Q Why did you ask her to do that, take you to
27 see the maid?
28 A Because I was worried. I didn't know what
0051
01 was going on. I didn't know whether the maid was
02 there, whether she was injured, whether she'd been
03 murdered or what. I needed to find out.
04 Q So she took -- Arnelle took you to the maid's
05 bedroom?
06 A She took me to the room, opened the door and
07 you could look in and see that there was no one there.
08 Q Did you see any -- did you look to see whether
09 there was any signs of struggle or violence that
10 occurred in there?
11 A There didn't appear to be in that area of the
12 house, no.
13 Q Now, why was it that you asked to go into the
14 house to check on the whereabouts of the defendant?
15 A To try and find out if he was in the house or
16 if the maid was in the house or if anybody was in the
17 house.
18 Q But you received no response when you called
19 the phone and rang the bell on the intercom.
20 Didn't that tell you that he certainly was not
21 at home and the maid was not at home?
22 A No, no, not at all.
23 Going back, again, we had knowledge that
24 Westec had no prior knowledge that there was any travel
25 plans. We had knowledge that there was supposed to be
26 a live-in maid.
27 We had just come from a very violent murder
28 scene. We see what we believe to be blood. We could
0052
01 have had a second murder scene there or we could have
02 had someone injured there. We needed to check that.
03 Q So you were inside the house with Arnelle
04 after seeing the maid's room.
05 What did you do next?
06 A She came back into the kitchen area where my
07 partner and detective Phillips was and there was -- this
08 is all happening very quickly.
09 She -- I believe she told detective Phillips
10 that she could find out her father's location by calling
11 his office. They would always know where he was at.
12 And she placed a phone call.
13 Q Now, while she was placing that phone call,
14 where were you?
15 A I had moved back toward the back of the
16 house. I was intending on going out to look around the
17 grounds.
18 Q What for?
19 A To see if there was anybody hurt or injured
20 there.
21 Q Where were the other detectives?
22 A Detective Lange was with detective Phillips,
23 and detective Fuhrman was -- I still -- I believe still
24 in the back with Brian Kato.
25 Q Now, you say Detective Lange and detective
26 Phillips.
27 Where were they?
28 A They were in the kitchen area with Arnelle
0053
01 Simpson.
02 Q With Arnelle.
03 Did you search the house?
04 A I briefly looked as I moved back toward the
05 back. I didn't see anything unusual in that portion of
06 the house.
07 And shortly thereafter, detective Fuhrman came
08 to me and says, "hey, you've got to talk to" -- he was
09 calling him Kato, Brian Kaelin. "Listen to what he has
10 to say."
11 Q When I say did you search the house, did you
12 go upstairs, look around?
13 A No, no.
14 Q Did you go into the den area or the living
15 room areas or the dining room areas?
16 A I could see the majority of the downstairs of
17 the house from where I was at.
18 Q Did you go look under cushions or in cabinets
19 or --
20 A No.
21 Q -- Linen closets?
22 A No.
23 Q As you -- so the nature of your search --
24 quote, unquote -- was that you walked to the back of the
25 house and looked around to make sure you saw no one.
26 A Exactly. I was looking for people, not other
27 things.
28 Q People, not evidence.
0054
01 A Yeah.
02 Q Were you present in the house while Arnelle
03 made the phone call to try and locate her father?
04 A I believe at that point when she was making
05 the phone call is when I started walking toward the back
06 and was shortly thereafter approached by detective
07 Fuhrman who directed me to sit down at the bar area and
08 talk to Kato.
09 Q And did you do that?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q What did Kato tell you?
12 A Well, prior to that, detective Fuhrman had
13 told me that Kato had told him that he'd heard a very
14 loud noise on the south side of his room, and that he
15 was going to go back there and check and see if
16 everything was okay. And he told me, "ask him, or have
17 him tell you about this noise that he heard."
18 And I sat down there and talked with him, and
19 he told me that evening he had heard a very loud
20 thumping noise outside, that he had thought it was an
21 earthquake, and it had actually moved a picture on the
22 wall of his room.
23 Q Having heard that, what did you think?
24 A Well, again, I had the same suspicion. It's
25 very unusual to hear loud thumping noises outside your
26 bedroom.
27 I thought possibly somebody was hurt or
28 somebody was down out there, and that's why detective
0055
01 Fuhrman was going to that location to check.
02 Q At that point when you sat down and talked to
03 Kato, had contact, to your knowledge, yet been made with
04 the defendant?
05 A I believe it was being made at that point.
06 Q Were you privy to that conversation?
07 A No, I was not.
08 Q And when I say "that conversation," I mean
09 between the detectives and the defendant.
10 A No, I was not.
11 Q At the point that you spoke to Kato, what were
12 your concerns?
13 A My concerns that -- again, knowing all the
14 information I knew, my concern was that someone was
15 hurt, someone had been killed, someone had been injured
16 at that location.
17 Q After receiving that information from Kato,
18 what happened next?
19 A Well, while I talked with Kato in the bar
20 area, which is to the rear of the house -- there was a
21 bar area set up -- within probably 10 to 15 minutes,
22 detective Fuhrman came to me and said, "you've got to
23 come with me and see this," and he led me to the south
24 side of the house.
25 Q Detective Fuhrman did that?
26 A Yes.
27 Q Do you know whether before he took you outside
28 you saw him leave the house with anyone else?
0056
01 A Detective Fuhrman?
02 Q Yes.
03 A The last time I saw detective Fuhrman he was
04 by himself.
05 Q Then you were not privy to his movements, I
06 take it?
07 A No.
08 Q Okay.
09 Where did he take you?
10 A Do you want me to show you with the pointer?
11 Q Sure. On the defense diagram?
12 A Yes.
13 He took me from the back area of the house,
14 around the north side, crossed the front and into a
15 small walkway on the south side of the residence, which
16 would be the common wall that connects the main
17 residence with the guest house residence on the south
18 side -- on the south side here.
19 Q He didn't take you out the front door?
20 A You know, I believe you're right. I believe
21 he did take me through the house and out the front door,
22 now that I think about it.
23 There was a lot of movement going on, but I
24 think you're right. I think we walked from the back
25 through the front door and then came around.
26 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object to
27 the form of the question. It clearly obviously was
28 leading and suggestive.
0057
01 The officer now is saying, "yes, you're
02 right." He's referring to the leading and suggestive
03 nature. It's totally improper, should not have been
04 asked, and the answer should be stricken.
05 THE COURT: Overruled.
06 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, I think a simple --
07 THE COURT: Overruled, Ms. Clark.
08 MS. CLARK: All right.
09 THE COURT: We are going to take the morning break
10 at this time -- it is a little after 10:15 -- for 15
11 minutes.
12 I remind you, please do not discuss your
13 testimony with anyone.
14 And we'll continue in 15 minutes.
15
16
17 (At 10:17 a.m., a recess was taken until 10:38 a.m.)
18
19
20 THE COURT: All right. We're once again on the
21 record in the case of People versus Simpson.
22 The defendant is present with counsel.
23 The people are represented.
24 Detective Vannatter is on the witness stand.
25 I remind you, you are still under oath.
26 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
27 THE COURT: Ms. Clark?
28 MS. CLARK: Yes. May I interrupt very briefly.
0058
01 I just received the curriculum vitae on the
02 expert witness we are going to be calling on the blood
03 work, Greg Matheson, and I am handing it to defense
04 counsel right now.
05
06 Philip Vannatter,
07 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
08 having been previously called and duly sworn, resumed
09 the stand and testified further as follows:
10
11 DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)
12
13 BY MS. CLARK:
14 Q Detective Vannatter, you indicated you went to
15 the south side of the property with detective Fuhrman
16 and you indicated on the diagram.
17 A Yes.
18 Q And what did you find there?
19 A Detective Fuhrman pointed out a man's leather
20 glove to me.
21 Q Showing you the exhibit that's marked as
22 People's 9 for identification, can you tell me if you
23 recognize what's being shown in these photographs?
24 A Yes, I recognize that.
25 Q What?
26 A That's the walkway along the south side of the
27 residence that has a chain link fence as a property
28 boundary, and the 'C', 'D', and 'E' represent the glove
0059
01 that was lying on the walkway.
02 Q And does that represent -- do those pictures
03 in 'C' and 'D' depict the original condition in which
04 that glove was found?
05 A Yes.
06 Q And location?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Was that glove significant to you?
09 A Yes, it was.
10 Q Why?
11 A It appeared -- it was a right-handed
12 leather -- brown leather glove that appeared to be a
13 match of the left-handed glove that I had seen at the
14 original crime scene.
15 Q Now, after you saw that glove -- excuse me,
16 strike that.
17 You were with detective Fuhrman when you saw
18 that glove, is that what you said?
19 A Yes, he took me back there.
20 Q Did you walk back out with him?
21 A I believe I did. He went to get, I believe,
22 detective Lange or detective Phillips, also to show it
23 to them.
24 Q So he took each of you back there to show the
25 glove?
26 A Yes.
27 Q Now by the time you saw the glove, sir --
28 well, let me ask you this.
0060
01 Can you point out the route you took back
02 after you saw the glove?
03 A After I saw the glove?
04 Q Right. After you saw the glove, where did
05 you go?
06 A Yes. I came from the location back in here,
07 I came back into the front and onto the driveway. Out
08 in here (indicating).
09 Q When you arrived at the location of 360
10 Rockingham, can you describe what the lighting
11 conditions were? In the sky, I mean, not the house.
12 A When I first arrived there?
13 Q Yes.
14 A It was dark.
15 Q By the time you had seen the glove and come
16 back onto the driveway, what was the lighting like?
17 A It was pretty light by then. It had began
18 to -- dawn had broken. It was light.
19 Q In that growing light, were you able to make
20 any further observations?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What did you see?
23 A I saw originally a blood -- what appeared to
24 be a blood droplet in the driveway. And I walked west
25 in the driveway and observed several others that
26 appeared to be leading from the area of where the car
27 was parked.
28 Q And by "the car," you mean --
0061
01 A The Ford Bronco.
02 Q And the blood drops, where did they appear to
03 be leading from the Ford Bronco?
04 A To the front door of the residence.
05 Q Showing you what's been marked as People's 8,
06 do you recognize what's being shown in this
07 photograph -- these photographs, excuse me.
08 A Yes, I do.
09 Q I'm directing your attention specifically now
10 to 'D', 'E' and 'F'.
11 A Yes.
12 Q What's being shown there?
13 A Those are droplets of a red stain, ultimately
14 determined to be blood, that were found in the driveway
15 of the Simpson home.
16 Q Showing you also a series of photographs that
17 have been marked as People's 6, do you recognize what's
18 being shown in these photographs?
19 A Yes, I do.
20 Q I'm directing specifically your attention,
21 sir, to photographs 'D', 'E' and 'F'.
22 A Yes.
23 Q What's being shown there?
24 A That shows the driveway leading from
25 Rockingham Avenue to the front door of the residence.
26 Q And do you see little -- let me hold this for
27 the court.
28 MS. CLARK: It might help you to see, Your Honor.
0062
01 THE COURT: Thank you.
02 BY MS. CLARK:
03 Q In 'D', 'E' and 'F' I see little -- what
04 appear to be little pieces of paper.
05 A Um-hum, yes.
06 Q What are those?
07 A Those are identification numbers that are
08 completed and placed there by the criminalist at my
09 direction to photograph and show the location of the
10 blood droplets.
11 Q So those tags Mark where blood droplets were
12 found?
13 A That's correct, yes.
14 Q If you know, sir, what time was it when you
15 made the observation of those blood droplets in the
16 driveway after you'd just seen the glove?
17 A I -- again, I would have to estimate that. I
18 believe it was around 6:45 or so in the morning.
19 Q Now, backing up for a moment, at the time just
20 prior to the glove being found, what was -- what were
21 you trying to do? What was your state of mind with
22 respect to what you were doing there at 360 Rockingham
23 just before the glove was found?
24 A We were there to insure that all the occupants
25 were safe, that a notification was made of the death of
26 Nicole Brown, and that a disposition was made for the
27 children that we had.
28 Q And to that end, I think you indicated before
0063
01 you were trying to locate the defendant?
02 A Yes.
03 Q What steps did you take to locate the
04 defendant while you were inside the residence?
05 A I looked around the bottom area of the home.
06 And at that time telephone calls were being made, and
07 during that period of time I was informed that -- I
08 believe by my partner -- that Mr. Simpson had been
09 located in Chicago.
10 Q Now, when that was going on, what were you
11 doing?
12 A I was between the kitchen area and the bar
13 area with Kato.
14 Q So this was a kind of -- all these events were
15 kind of happening at once?
16 A Yes. We were actually spread out. We were
17 not all together all the time. And all these things
18 are happening all at the same time. They were not a
19 sequence of events but a conglomeration of events that
20 was occurring.
21 Q So while you were doing one thing, the other
22 detectives were doing other things, and you were kind of
23 all working at the same time?
24 A Exactly.
25 Q After you saw the glove and on your way back
26 saw the blood drops, then what was your state of mind
27 with respect to what you had to do there at 360
28 Rockingham?
0064
01 A My -- knowing at that point that Mr. Simpson
02 was in Chicago, failing to find any evidence of any
03 forced entry or anybody injured or hurt at the location,
04 I then changed -- I began to feel that I had a scene
05 there that was connected to the crime scene at 875 south
06 Bundy.
07 Q And in that regard, what did you do?
08 A I instructed detective Fuhrman and other
09 personnel at the scene there that this was now a
10 protected scene, that it needed to be protected for
11 investigation, and that I was going to secure a search
12 warrant for the residence.
13 Q Now, had the criminalist arrived yet?
14 A No.
15 Q So you had already secured the location for
16 the purpose of securing a search warrant before the
17 criminalist got there.
18 A Yes. I did not leave the location at that
19 point. I waited for the arrival of the chemist (sic)
20 for a couple of reasons.
21 I wanted to be sure that what I was seeing was
22 blood, and I wanted to be sure that the evidence was
23 protected, and in the Los Angeles Police Department at
24 murder scenes or crime scenes, criminalists collect and
25 protect the evidence.
26 Q And that glove that you saw on the south side
27 of the property that you've earlier identified in the
28 photographs, were you concerned about loss of evidence
0065
01 on that glove?
02 A Oh, definitely. The glove was in the
03 elements, was outside. There could possibly be trace
04 evidence on it, fiber, hair, what have you.
05 Also, there was an animal, a dog, running
06 loose on the residence lawn. And I wanted to make sure
07 that it was protected before I left that scene.
08 Q Now, before -- excuse me, strike that.
09 While all this was going on, do you know where
10 Arnelle was?
11 A I believe she was in the house.
12 Q Was there still some effort being made at that
13 time, if you know, to help the children be placed
14 somewhere?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did the children ever arrive at the residence?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you recall when?
19 A I believe it would have been prior to 7:30,
20 because that's when I asked for the place to be
21 secured. Totally secured.
22 Q When you say "totally secured," then what do
23 you mean by that?
24 A I asked Arnelle and a friend of her's, Al
25 Cowlings, that she had called to help her pick up the
26 children, if there was a place that they could go away
27 from the residence to eliminate any possible
28 contamination of any evidence that may be in the house,
0066
01 and they said yes.
02 And at that point I asked them if they would
03 mind doing that, and they said no.
04 Q Do you know when -- so did -- strike that.
05 Do you know if Mr. Cowlings came and brought
06 the children with him to 360 Rockingham?
07 A No. I believe the sequence of events on that
08 is, I believe a phone call was made to Mr. Cowlings
09 after notification had been made to Mr. Simpson, who
10 instructed, I believe my partner, to release the
11 children to his daughter Arnelle Simpson.
12 I believe she called Mr. Cowlings and he
13 responded and took her to West L.A. to pick up the
14 children.
15 Q What time did you leave the residence to
16 secure -- to obtain a search warrant, sir?
17 A Approximately 7:30.
18 Q At what point did you secure the house for the
19 purpose of obtaining that search warrant?
20 A Just prior to that I asked them to leave,
21 asked them if they had a place to go to.
22 I had the evidence protected earlier than that
23 outside. In fact, I believe the criminalist arrived
24 there shortly after 7:00 o'clock, and I showed him the
25 physical evidence outside and left him instructions that
26 it was to be protected, marked and photographed. And
27 that the fact that there was a dog running loose on the
28 compound, so to be very careful to protect the evidence.
0067
01 Q So let me ask you this.
02 What was the time frame between seeing the
03 glove and the blood drops in the driveway also and then
04 securing the house for a search warrant?
05 A It was not a long time. I would say no more
06 than 30 minutes total.
07 Q Could be less?
08 A It could be, yes.
09 Q Were you looking at your watch to time every
10 event that occurred?
11 A No.
12 Q So are the times you're giving us estimates?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Okay. To the best of your knowledge, sir,
15 when you secured the house -- when you made the
16 determination to secure the house, was A.C. Cowlings
17 already there or did he come up later? If you know.
18 A He was there because I spoke with him.
19 Q Do you recall seeing any children in the house
20 before you -- before you decided to secure the house for
21 a search warrant?
22 A No. I recall seeing the children leave, but
23 I didn't see them prior, I don't think.
24 Q You saw them leave from where?
25 A From the home there.
26 Q Oh, you did.
27 You mean from 360 Rockingham?
28 A Yes, that's correct.
0068
01 Q Who was taking them out?
02 A A.C. Cowlings, or Al Cowlings and Arnelle
03 Simpson.
04 Q But you didn't see how they got to the home.
05 A No.
06 Q And that's when they were leaving pursuant to
07 your request so that you could secure the house for the
08 search warrant?
09 A Yes, that's correct.
10 MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro.
12 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much, Your Honor.
13
14 CROSS-EXAMINATION
15
16 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
17 Q Good afternoon, Detective Vannatter -- or good
18 morning. Good mid morning. We haven't taken our
19 afternoon break.
20 A Good morning, Mr. Shapiro.
21 Q Detective Vannatter, with your experience as a
22 Los Angeles police officer, are you one of the more
23 senior detectives in your unit?
24 A Yeah, I believe only my partner has more time
25 than I do in our unit, yes.
26 Q So between the two of you, you are the two
27 most senior ranking people in homicide in the
28 Los Angeles Police Department; isn't that correct?
0069
01 A No. In our unit.
02 Q As far as detectives in your homicide unit.
03 A Yes, in our 12-man unit, yes.
04 Q And your unit is the special unit?
05 A It's named homicide special section, yes.
06 Q And it's special because you investigate
07 special situations?
08 A We investigate certain type cases, yes.
09 Q That are somehow defined as special?
10 A Well, that's not always the case,
11 Mr. Shapiro. A lot of times we handle any type of
12 case. If there's an overload at one of the areas and
13 they need help, we go pick up their cases too. So
14 that's not totally true.
15 Q All right. But in general you told us if
16 there is a serial murder, that would come to your
17 special unit.
18 A Yes.
19 Q And if there was a high profile person who was
20 involved in a murder, that would come to your unit.
21 A Most likely, yes.
22 Q And if there were murders of prominent
23 political people, that would come to your unit.
24 A Yes, most likely.
25 Q What other types of things would come to your
26 unit that would be categorized as special, not overflow?
27 A Very, very involved cases that the homicide
28 detectives at the divisional level don't have the proper
0070
01 time or manpower to investigate those type cases.
02 Q So you get resources and time above and beyond
03 what detectives in the substations get.
04 A I don't know that we -- I don't believe
05 that -- half of that statement is probably true. We
06 probably have more time than the average detective. I
07 don't believe we have any more resources than anybody on
08 the department would have.
09 Q All right.
10 Let's for a minute focus on the resources that
11 you have out of your unit.
12 A Okay.
13 Q You were familiar with the time Mr. Simpson
14 surrendered with Mr. Cowlings to the Los Angeles Police
15 Department on Friday, were you not?
16 A Yes, I was.
17 Q And --
18 A When he surrendered?
19 Q Well, he came back to the Rockingham house,
20 did he not?
21 A I'm familiar when he was taken into custody,
22 that's correct.
23 Q And when he was taken into custody, did he in
24 fact surrender to the police?
25 A Well, I don't know. I wasn't at the scene.
26 I know he was taken into custody, though.
27 Q Are you aware of what took place at the scene?
28 A I believe, yes.
0071
01 Q And at the scene, how many members of the
02 Los Angeles Police Department were there?
03 A I don't know, Mr. Shapiro.
04 Q What would be your estimate?
05 A There were quite a few. I don't know.
06 Q More than 10?
07 A Oh, I would say so, yes.
08 Q More than 20?
09 A I don't know. I don't honestly know.
10 Q As the senior ranking detective in charge of
11 this case, you oversee all aspects of this case, do you
12 not?
13 A We have a hand in all aspects of it.
14 However, that situation that you're talking about there
15 is a tactical field situation that is handled by field
16 supervisors, not by detectives. That would have been
17 handled by someone else.
18 Q Let me just ask you generally, in terms of
19 your observations and in terms of your knowledge as to
20 how the police department works.
21 If it was reported that there were in excess
22 of 100 police officers there, would you say that would
23 be a fair reporting?
24 MS. CLARK: I'm going to object to the relevancy of
25 this line of questioning.
26 THE COURT: Sustained.
27 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may I just be heard on
28 that?
0072
01 THE COURT: All right.
02 MR. SHAPIRO: This is very, very important
03 foundationally to show resources that are available in
04 emergency -- an emergency situation, and resources that
05 are available to this detective and resources that were
06 used at the time that he was dealing with the situation
07 on Rockingham.
08 MS. CLARK: Same objection, Your Honor.
09 THE COURT: The objection is sustained,
10 Mr. Shapiro, as to the number of officers that were
11 present at the Friday night incident.
12 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you.
13 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
14 Q I take it that you have special training to
15 have the classification of being a special unit
16 detective?
17 A No, I -- no, I don't think that's necessarily
18 true. I think that's based on a person's work history
19 and experience.
20 Q What about special abilities?
21 A I would not be the one to ask that question,
22 if I have special abilities.
23 Q Well, I don't want you to be modest.
24 A I take a lot of pride in my job, Mr. Shapiro,
25 yes.
26 Q And you wouldn't be in that important position
27 if you didn't have the credentials, the experience, the
28 knowledge and the background to have such an important
0073
01 detective job, would you?
02 A That's probably true, yes.
03 Q And as such, you are familiar, are you not,
04 with the procedures that are mandated by the Los Angeles
05 Police Department for investigative techniques in
06 homicide cases, are you not?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Are you familiar with a Los Angeles Police
09 Department chronological record form 3.11.6?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And is that something that is used to record
12 in-depth the chronological record of the investigation
13 in a homicide case?
14
15 \ \
16
17
0074
01 Q And is that something that is used to report in
02 depth the chronological record of the investigation in a
03 homicide case?
04 A the chronological record is a record that is
05 used as time permits to make a chronological entry on a
06 log as to activities that have taken place in that
07 investigation.
08 Q And doesn't that form require the reporting of
09 the dates and times of the initial notification and of all
10 investigative contacts and processes?
11 A It would be impossible to list all investigative
12 dates and processes.
13 Q My question is --
14 A the majority --
15 Q -- Isn't that what the manual you are trained
16 under and the policy requires.
17 A Again, it may state that; however, that record is
18 used as time permits in an investigation to record
19 functions and activities that have occurred in that
20 investigation.
21 Q My question is does it state that.
22 A I don't know the exact WORDING.
23 Q Do you have form 3.11.16 that you used in this
24 case?
25 A I believe my partners kept a chronological record
26 on just regular paper. I don't think we have a
27 chronological record in the case.
28 Q Would you take a moment to review your materials
0075
01 and see if you have such a record.
02 A I think I just answered that. I believe my
03 partner kept a chronological record on regular white paper
04 instead of using the form because the form wasn't available
05 when we first started the case; We didn't have it in our
06 possession.
07 Q You say you think.
08 Would it help you to refresh your memory --
09 A I know he has, Mr. Shapiro.
10 Q You know you don't have this?
11 A Yes.
12 Q So the chronological record was kept by your
13 partner on a piece of blank paper?
14 A Yes.
15 MS. CLARK: Again, objection. irrelevant. What does
16 this have to do with a motion to suppress?
17 The COURT: I assume we are heading in that
18 direction.
19 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, we are, your Honor.
20 the COURT: Do you want to make an offer of proof as
21 to this chronological record as it relates to this motion?
22 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.
23 We will show improper procedures were followed
24 from the very beginning of this investigation until the
25 time that detective Vannatter has testified; that proper
26 forms and procedures as outlined by the Los Angeles police
27 department have not been followed; that times, dates and
28 records of events that should be recorded are not
0076
01 recorded. And, quite frankly, your Honor, this will go to
02 the credibility of detective Vannatter and his testimony
03 here today.
04 MS. CLARK: May I be heard, your Honor?
05 The COURT: Yes.
06 MS. CLARK: I fail to see how the use of a particular
07 form or the use of a blank page in lieu of that form have
08 anything to do with the propriety of the officers' conduct
09 in searching the residence at 360 Rockingham. I'm sorry,
10 your Honor. I just don't see the connection.
11 The officers used what they could at the time
12 that they could under a pressing need and an urgent
13 situation. the issue is was the information required to be
14 recorded on the chronological record recorded in some
15 manner, not whether they used a form that was preprinted or
16 not; and I'm sorry, your Honor, but I just can't see the
17 relevance of this line of questioning to whether or not
18 proper procedures were followed with respect to the
19 decision to go over the wall and do a cursory search of the
20 grounds.
21 the COURT: With reference to the utilization of
22 specific LAPD forms or procedures that don't present
23 constitutional issues, i really don't see the relevance of
24 whether every "I" was dotted and every "T" was crossed;
25 However, with regard to whether there is impeaching
26 information within or missing from some of these records,
27 there could indeed be some relevance.
28 I am just, I guess, going to have to hear on a
0077
01 question by question -- you make the appropriate
02 objections, and I will make the appropriate rulings.
03 MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.
04 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
05 Q Have you reviewed a chronological record that was
06 done by your partner?
07 A No.
08 Q Would you take a moment, please. Please look at
09 that, please.
10 A Certainly.
11 Q Do you have one available?
12 A No. My partner has the books in the hallway.
13 Q Maybe the district attorney --
14 A If we could get them from him.
15 Q Or maybe the district attorney might have a copy
16 here.
17 A That is a possibility.
18 Q Detective Vannatter, are you familiar with
19 something known as a homicide book or, in the vernacular, a
20 murder book?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And is that something that is routinely prepared
23 by the Los Angeles police department?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And, as part of that murder book, the
26 chronological record?
27 A Yes.
28 Q Do you know where to find the chronological
0078
01 record in the murder book?
02 A Yes; in section 1.
03 Q Would you look for that, please.
04 A Okay.
05 Q Have you located the chronological record?
06 A Yes, I sure have.
07 Q How many pages does it consist of?
08 A Seven to date.
09 Q Seven to date?
10 A Yeah.
11 Six and three-quarters to date.
12 Q And by policy, there is to be a chronological
13 record for each crime scene; is that correct?
14 A No. there's normally one chronological record
15 kept for the case.
16 Q For the case?
17 A Yes.
18 Q So that would include the crime scene at Bundy?
19 A Yes.
20 Q What you later found to be the crime scene at
21 Rockingham?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And the crime scene in chicago?
24 A Well, that was a separate investigation. We were
25 not privy to what was going on in chicago.
26 Q You didn't have any detectives there?
27 A We did, but we were not personally involved in
28 that. We had no information at that time what was going
0079
01 on.
02 Q When you say you were not privy to it, the
03 chicago police department didn't tell the LAPD what was
04 going on in chicago?
05 A No.
06 You are asking a question -- may I explain the
07 question?
08 Q No. You can answer my question.
09 MS. CLARK: Objection, your Honor. the witness
10 should be allowed to explain his answer, especially
11 because he is being questioned as an expert in his
12 field.
13 the COURT: I think he is trying to give an answer,
14 But I don't think you are going to try to explain
15 Mr. Shapiro's question.
16 THE WITNESS: No. I am going to try to explain the
17 answer to his question.
18 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
19 Q That we would like.
20 A We have a 2,000-mile separation. We have
21 detectives with instructions to go to chicago and complete
22 an investigation. While my partner and myself are working
23 here in los angeles, we do not have a constant
24 communication with the detectives back there; So I would
25 say I was not fully aware of everything that was going on
26 back there.
27 Q Would you say that this is under your
28 jurisdiction as part of your investigation, or is this not
0080
01 part of your investigation?
02 A It is part of the overall investigation of this
03 homicide, yes.
04 Q And proper procedure for the Los Angeles police
05 department to require a chronological record for that
06 investigation? Yes or no?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Is there a chronological record for that
09 investigation, or is that included in the seven pages?
10 A No. I believe there is a separate record kept
11 with the other investigation.
12 Q OKAY.
13 And have you seen that?
14 A No.
15 Q Would you look for that, please.
16 A I don't have those books. All I have is the
17 investigation that has been going on in Los Angeles
18 here.
19 Q You just said it would be proper for the
20 Los Angeles police department to have a chronological
21 record.
22 My question is is there such a record. And if
23 there is, would you show it to us, please.
24 MS. CLARK: Again, I am going to object. This is form
25 over substance. We are still talking about whether forms
26 were used and certain forms were filled out and who is
27 keeping them. This has nothing to do with urgent
28 conditions and whether to go over a wall or not go over a
0081
01 wall.
02 MR. SHAPIRO: May I be heard?
03 The COURT: Let me state one thing, Mr. Shapiro.
04 I recall at least at some point during this
05 proceeding a large envelope being handed to you by
06 Miss Clark and a statement by Miss Clark, "this relates to
07 chicago." I don't recall exactly when that was, but it was
08 during the course of this. And if there are discovery
09 issues to take up, I am willing to do it if it is
10 necessary; But I don't think it is necessary to do it in
11 the course of this particular motion.
12 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may I be heard briefly?
13 The COURT: Yes.
14 MR. SHAPIRO: This is not a discovery proceeding,
15 clearly. This is a proceeding to determine the truth of
16 the testimony from the witness stand. What we want to
17 establish is -- if there was a chronological record done,
18 perhaps we haven't seen it; We would like to see it.
19 If all they have is the seven pages, we would
20 like to establish that because we believe through
21 impeachment we will show that the testimony given from the
22 witness stand is not true.
23 the COURT: Well, Mr. Shapiro, the total chicago
24 chronology, whether it exists or doesn't exist, I just
25 don't see it is relevant to this particular proceeding.
26 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you, your Honor.
27 Q Detective, regarding the seven-page chronology
28 you have, that should, according to your policy, include
0082
01 the dates and times of all investigative contacts and
02 processes; is that correct?
03 A If that's -- if that's physically possible to do,
04 yes.
05 Q So you would expect to find in there what took
06 place when you went to Rockingham; is that correct?
07 A You would expect to find an entry there to
08 indicate we were at Rockingham, yes.
09 Q Could you expect to find an entry as to the time
10 you arrived at Rockingham?
11 A Isn't that noted? I haven't looked. I don't
12 know whether that is noted or not.
13 Q I am just asking if you would expect to find
14 that. Yes or no?
15 A It could be there. It could not been there.
16 Q I know it could or couldn't be there. We all
17 know that. the question is would looking at it, sir --
18 would you close the book, please.
19 A Certainly.
20 Q Would you expect to find it there?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And would you expect to find there notations that
23 this was an emergency situation?
24 A No.
25 Q Would you expect to find there that backup units
26 were called if they were?
27 A Not necessarily.
28 Q Would you expect to find there that paramedics
0083
01 were called?
02 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, again, same objection.
03 This line of questioning is simply not relevant to a
04 decision made under emergency conditions as to whether
05 or not to go over a wall.
06 the COURT: the objection to this particular question
07 is overruled.
08 the WITNESS: Would you expect to find notations
09 that a paramedic unit was called?
10 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
11 Q Yes.
12 A Probably not. You would probably find that
13 under a section of the book that relates to ambulance
14 information.
15 Q Would you expect to find notations that you
16 notified communications that you were at another location?
17 A Not necessarily.
18 Q I am asking would you expect to find that.
19 A Not necessarily.
20 Q You may or you may not?
21 A exactly.
22 Q Are you familiar with a los angeles police
23 department follow-up report?
24 A Yes.
25 Q After you go to a crime scene, if there are
26 additional factors that are not included because of time
27 constraints in the initial report, you do a follow-up
28 report; is that correct?
0084
01 MS. CLARK: Again, your Honor, I am going to object
02 as irrelevant.
03 the COURT: Overruled.
04 the WITNESS: A follow-up is done, in general terms,
05 to attempt to explain what has happened. It is not a
06 detailed description of the entire case.
07 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
08 Q An attempt to explain what has happened.
09 Let me ask you this.
10 Did you file an initial report outlining what you
11 have testified here today in an official -- on an official
12 LAPD form?
13 MS. CLARK: Same objection, your Honor.
14 What does it matter whether it is filed on an
15 official form or whether the information is contained on a
16 blank piece of paper? the issue is what information and
17 what decisions were made and why they were made.
18 This line of questioning is going to minutia as
19 to whether a form was used or whether a blank piece of
20 paper was used. I don't see the relevance.
21 the COURT: is the import of your question whether a
22 specific form was made or whether, in fact, a report was
23 prepared?
24 MR. SHAPIRO: the import is clearly whether a
25 report was made.
26 the COURT: Objection overruled.
27 You may answer the question.
28 the WITNESS: A follow-up report was prepared.
0085
01 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
02 Q Was an initial report prepared?
03 A I don't know what you mean by "an initial
04 report."
05 There was an initial death report and crime
06 report that was filed.
07 Q I am saying an initial report of you and the
08 three other detectives' activities at Rockingham.
09 Did you file an initial report?
10 A No.
11 Q You filed a follow-up report?
12 A Yes.
13 Q How much later did you file the follow-up report?
14 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, objection. Objection.
15 Irrelevant.
16 Whether reports were filed at certain times and
17 what forms were used, how can that be relevant as to
18 whether or not an appropriate decision was made under the
19 circumstances to go over a wall?
20 the COURT: Mr. Shapiro, are you expecting to offer
21 some sort of information from a report that is at odds with
22 the testimony here?
23 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, your Honor.
24 the COURT: So this is a foundation to that?
25 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.
26 the COURT: All right.
27 With that understanding, the objection is
28 overruled.
0086
01 by mr. shapiro:
02 Q You did file a follow-up report; is that correct?
03 A My partner did, yes.
04 Q And when was that done?
05 A the date should be on the report. I don't know
06 exactly.
07 Q Have you seen the report?
08 A I have seen it, yes.
09 Q Did you participate in the writing of the report?
10 A No, I did not.
11 Q Did you give any information that was later
12 contained in that report?
13 A I must have. We talk all the time.
14 Q That's the purpose of the report, isn't it --
15 what Vannatter did, what phillips did, what the four
16 detectives did There?
17 One person writes the report; is that correct?
18 A the purpose of the report is an overall view of
19 the investigation.
20 Q Have you read that report for errors and
21 omissions?
22 A I have read the report -- not recently.
23 Q When you read it, did you find any errors or
24 omissions in the report?
25 A None that I recall.
26 Q If there were errors or omissions, as a
27 detective, you would correct those with a supplemental
28 report, would you not?
0087
01 A If there were errors.
02 I don't know what you mean by "omissions."
03 Again, that is just a general, overall report
04 that gives a general outline of the investigation.
05 Q Are you satisfied with the content of the report
06 as far as accuracy and veracity regarding what transpired
07 at Rockingham?
08 A Am I satisfied with it?
09 I don't know what is contained in there regarding
10 what occurred at Rockingham. I am satisfied my partner did
11 a comprehensive report, yes.
12 Q I thought you said you read it.
13 A I did read it; but, again, I haven't read it
14 recently and I don't recall what is in the report.
15 Q Would you take a moment to read it and refresh
16 your memory.
17 A Certainly.
18 Q How long is that report? Do you know?
19 A I don't know.
20 Okay. Yes. I am satisfied with what is in it.
21 Q In the report, in the third paragraph, it says
22 upon arrival that you noticed a bronco and the vehicle was
23 parked at an angle to the curb, with the rear end jutting
24 out into the roadway.
25 A Okay.
26 Q Is that accurate?
27 A Yes. the rear end was sticking out farther than
28 the front end.
0088
01 Q It says "into the roadway."
02 What did you mean or what did your partner mean
03 by that term?
04 A the vehicle was parked on the roadway. Where it
05 was parked was part of the roadway. the rear end was
06 sticking farther out into the roadway than the front.
07 Q How far was the rear sticking out further?
08 A I don't know. I didn't measure it, sir.
09 Q Well, this was an important event for you, was it
10 not?
11 A there were a lot of things occurring at that
12 time.
13 I didn't measure it, Mr. Shapiro. I don't know
14 how far out it was as compared to the front end.
15 Q But this was, you would agree, one of your very
16 key, important observations --
17 A At that point --
18 Q -- That led you to go into the house, was it not?
19 A No. It just appeared that the vehicle was parked
20 unusual, like it had been parked in haste. I wouldn't say
21 that -- that was not the catalyst that caused me to go in.
22 Q if Detective Fuhrman said that was a very
23 important aspect and caused him considerable consternation
24 and led him, as one of the main ingredients, to go into the
25 house, you would say he was wrong?
26 A No.
27 MS. CLARK: Objection. Misstates the testimony.
28 the COURT: Sustained.
0089
01 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
02 Q How long was the car at the scene before it was
03 moved -- the bronco?
04 A I don't know.
05 Q Do you have any records to refresh your memory as
06 to when it was towed?
07 A No, I don't.
08 I might. I don't know. I could look in the book
09 if you would like me to do that.
10 Q Would that be in the chronological log?
11 A No. It would probably be under the "vehicle
12 section" in there. I don't know. I could look and see.
13 Q Would you do that, please.
14 A Certainly.
15 It would indicate on the vehicle report itself
16 that the vehicle was removed at 1530 hours, 3:30 in the
17 afternoon.
18 Q How many hours was it there from the time you
19 made your initial observation until the time it was
20 removed?
21 A Oh, it would have been sometime between 5 and
22 5:30 in the morning until 3:30 in the afternoon.
23 Q Would that give you sufficient time to ask
24 somebody to measure how far the rear of the car was out --
25 A I never did that, sir.
26 Q My question was --
27 A sure. Absolutely. I never did that, though.
28 Q I take it from your experience as a senior
0090
01 detective, when the criminalist came out, you would want
02 him to photograph the car.
03 A Yes.
04 Q And you would want him to photograph the angle of
05 the car?
06 MS. CLARK: Objection.
07 the COURT: Excuse me?
08 MS. CLARK: Objection.
09 The manner in which the investigation was
10 conducted in terms of the collection of the evidence has no
11 bearing on the decision made to go over the wall.
12 Same objection. Irrelevant.
13 the COURT: Overruled.
14 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
15 Q the angle of the car would be something important
16 for you to record with the criminalist?
17 A I had him photograph it. Yes.
18 Q And you had him photograph it from a position
19 where we could later review the angle of the car; is that
20 correct?
21 A I wasn't there when the photographing was done.
22 Q You are in charge of this, aren't you?
23 A Well, I am one of the co-investigators.
24 You are placing more importance on me than I
25 have, Mr. Shapiro. I wish I had that much importance.
26 Q Who is in charge of this investigation?
27 A Who is in charge of this investigation?
28 Q Yeah. Who is in charge?
0091
01 A the Los Angeles police department, where I work.
02 Q So willie Williams is in charge; is that correct?
03 A That would be the ultimate responsibility, yes.
04 Q And out in the field who was in charge?
05 A Myself and my partner.
06 Q And as far as collecting evidence, who is in
07 charge?
08 A We direct the criminalist to do that.
09 Q And you direct the criminalist and photographer
10 to take pictures, don't you?
11 A Exactly.
12 Q Did you direct the criminalist and photographer
13 to take pictures of the Bronco?
14 A I was not there when that was done.
15 Q Did you ask them to do it?
16 A I asked the criminalist to have it photographed,
17 yes.
18 Q Did you tell him why you wanted it photographed?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q Or did you just leave it up to the photographer
21 to take some pictures, maybe take a picture of the tire,
22 maybe take a picture of the gas tank?
23 MS. CLARK: Objection. Argumentative.
24 the COURT: Sustained.
25 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
26 Q Isn't it somebody's job to tell someone what type
27 of pictures they should take?
28 A they were told what type of pictures to take.
0092
01 Q By whom?
02 A I told the criminalist.
03 Q And you have -- Thank you.
04 And you have seen photographs of the bronco as
05 they were taken by the criminalist?
06 A Yes.
07 Q And do those accurately depict the position of
08 the car when you arrived?
09 A Yes.
10 Q they are not distorted in any way, are they?
11 MS. CLARK: Objection. Calls for speculation.
12 Let the witness see the pictures counsel is
13 referring to.
14 the COURT: Sustained.
15 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
16 Q Have you seen the pictures?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Are they --
19 a I can see the pictures right here.
20 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness is referring
21 to photograph "a" of People's --
22 the court: Is that People's 6?
23 MS. CLARK: 6, your Honor.
24 The COURT: I believe so.
25 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
26 Q Have you seen any other photographs of the
27 Bronco --
28 MS. CLARK: 8.
0093
01 the COURT: 8.
02 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
03 Q -- in the position you observed it?
04 A Yes.
05 Q You have seen those?
06 A Yes.
07 Q They properly depict what you observed when you
08 arrived?
09 MS. CLARK: Objection. Vague.
10 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
11 Q Do they properly depict what you observed when
12 you arrived?
13 The COURT: What photographs are you referring to?
14 MR. SHAPIRO: Any photographs.
15 I asked him a Wide-open question: "In the
16 hundreds of photographs that were taken, have you seen any
17 photographs of the bronco at the scene at Rockingham?" He
18 answered the question.
19 Q My question now is are those photographs accurate
20 and do they depict -- any of these photographs depict what
21 you observed when you arrived.
22 MS. CLARK: Again, objection.
23 Counsel is attempting to ascertain, apparently,
24 whether any of the photographs taken depict the angle at
25 which the rear end was jutting out; and unless this witness
26 is permitted to review all the photographs taken at this
27 time, he is not going to be able to give an accurate
28 answer.
0094
01 It is vague as to which photographs he is
02 referring to. there are numerous.
03 the COURT: Mr. Shapiro, I am not sure how many
04 photographs we are referring to. there have been a number
05 of photographs that have been utilized during the course of
06 this proceeding.
07 If you are limiting your question to those that
08 have been marked, that have been shown and that the witness
09 can take a look at, I think that is a fair question; But
10 just asking a question like the one you are asking with
11 regard to photographs when the court doesn't know what you
12 are referring to, I think it is just overbroad.
13 MR. SHAPIRO: the question is whether the witness
14 does, your Honor; And my question to him is a simple one,
15 whether any photographs were taken that accurately depict
16 the vehicle at the time he arrived.
17 MS. CLARK: Well, that was not the question, your
18 Honor.
19 MR. SHAPIRO: That will be a new question.
20 the COURT: Okay.
21 You can answer that, if you are able to.
22 the WITNESS: So I understand the question, were there
23 photographs taken that accurately depict --
24 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
25 Q the position of the bronco at the time you
26 arrived at the scene.
27 A I would have to say yes.
28 Q Thank you.
0095
01 Now, in the murder follow-up report, in paragraph
02 3, it says the following: "peering into the locked
03 vehicle's rear window, detectives observed a package with a
04 label indicating a return address to O.J. Simpson
05 enterprises. A registration check of the vehicle revealed
06 it to belong to hertz rental."
07 is that correct? those would be the observations
08 that were made?
09 A Yes; among a number of other observations.
10 Q Where in this report does it say you or anybody
11 else observed the shovel?
12 A it doesn't.
13 Q Where in this report does it say you or anyone
14 else observed plastic?
15 A It doesn't, but I observed it in the back of the
16 car.
17 Q That wasn't my question.
18 A I answered the question. It doesn't, but I
19 observed it in the car.
20 MR. SHAPIRO: Motion to strike the last part as
21 nonresponsive.
22 the COURT: Sustained as to the last portion.
23 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
24 Q then it says, "upon closer observation of the
25 vehicle, detectives observed what appeared to be human
26 blood near the handle on the driver's door"; is that
27 correct?
28 A If you are reading from the report, yes, that's
0096
01 correct.
02 Q And did you observe human blood?
03 A I observed what I thought was blood. I thought
04 it was human blood.
05 If I can explain that.
06 Q No. My question is did you observe human blood.
07 Yes or no?
08 A What I believed to be human blood, yes.
09 Q You didn't put that in the report that you
10 believed it to be human blood, did you?
11 A I didn't write the report.
12 No. I didn't put it in any report.
13 Q And can you determine the difference between
14 animal blood and human blood?
15 A No; but based on my experience -- and I can
16 explain that very easily if you want me to --
17 Q I don't want you to. Maybe the people might want
18 you to. I want you to answer the questions I ask.
19 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, this is unfair. He is being
20 questioned as an expert. He is entitled to explain his
21 answer.
22 the COURT: He does, though, have to answer the
23 questions that are asked of him, Miss Clark.
24 You will have a chance to question the witness
25 further if you feel some additional explanation is
26 warranted.
27 MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.
28
0097
01 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
02 Q Would you describe the size of the blood you saw.
03 A It was a small spot; a quarter, an eighth of an
04 inch.
05 Q And did you look at it with the naked eye or some
06 type of magnifying glass?
07 A My naked eye.
08 Q Did you use some type of light to illuminate it?
09 A flashlight, yes.
10 Q Do you wear glasses?
11 A I wear reading glasses, yes.
12 Q Did you use your glasses to look at this?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And were you able to distinguish this from any
15 other type of red stain, as being human blood?
16 A I believed it was blood.
17 Q I am saying -- my question was were you able to
18 distinguish this from any other type of red stain?
19 A I believed it was a red stain and I believed it
20 was blood.
21 Q What about at the bottom of the door? Did you
22 see any brush marks of what you believed to be blood?
23 A No. I don't recall seeing that.
24 Q And that is not recorded anywhere in any of the
25 reports, is that?
26 A I don't know.
27 Q And that wasn't called to your attention by
28 anyone, was it?
0098
01 A I don't recall seeing that. I can't answer the
02 question.
03 Q When you and the three other detectives went to
04 Mr. O.J. Simpson's residence, did you inform the
05 communications division of your intentions?
06 A I don't believe so.
07 I didn't personally.
08 Q Did anyone, to your knowledge?
09 A No.
10 Q Is that standard procedure?
11 A I very seldom inform communications divisions of
12 my movements.
13 Q I just asked you if that is standard procedure.
14 MS. CLARK: Objection. That is irrelevant.
15 the COURT: Sustained.
16 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
17 Q If somebody told you from Bundy to take Bundy to
18 sunset, take sunset towards the beach to Rockingham and
19 turn right on Rockingham and go two blocks, could you
20 follow those directions?
21 A Yeah. I believe I could, yes. Bundy makes a
22 funny turn there; but, yes, I believe I could.
23 Q Could you follow that, funny turn or not?
24 A I think so, yes.
25 MS. CLARK: Objection. Argumentative.
26 the COURT: Sustained.
27 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
28 Q Could you find sunset boulevard from where you
0099
01 were without any directions?
02 A From where I was on Bundy?
03 Q From the Bundy location, could you find sunset
04 boulevard?
05 A Yes. I worked that division for three years.
06 Yes.
07 Q Was all your work completed at the crime scene by
08 the time you left to go to the Rockingham address?
09 A No.
10 Q How many officers were at the crime scene that
11 were higher ranking than you at the time you left?
12 A That were higher ranking than me?
13 Q Yes.
14 A I believe three.
15 Q Who were they?
16 A My lieutenant, john rogers, and, I believe, a
17 lieutenant and captain from west Los Angeles division.
18 Q What are their names?
19 A I don't know.
20 Q Would you check the chronological record done by
21 your partner and see if they were there at the time you
22 left.
23 MS. CLARK: Objection.
24 What is the relevance of who was present at the
25 crime scene?
26 The COURT: Mr. Shapiro?
27 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.
28 This goes to credibility and impeachment.
0100
01 We are going to show that the four officers that
02 were in charge of this crime scene left the crime scene
03 within a very short period of time without properly
04 preserving the crime scene, not to go to the Simpson
05 residence because of an emergency but to go there because
06 of the celebrity nature of Mr. Simpson.
07 the COURT: Mr. Shapiro, the specific names of the
08 higher ranking officers that were present at the crime
09 scene, I don't see that that's relevant.
10 MR. SHAPIRO: the question was was there anybody left
11 there --
12 the court: the answer was there were three.
13 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
14 Q Would you check your chronological record to see
15 if there were, in fact, three people higher ranking than
16 you when you left the crime scene to go to Rockingham.
17 MS. CLARK: Same objection, your Honor.
18 the COURT: Sustained.
19 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
20 Q Did you leave somebody in charge of the crime
21 scene when you left?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Who did you leave in charge?
24 A My boss, lieutenant rogers.
25 Q Did you tell him what to do, or did he tell you
26 what to do?
27 A We informed him that we were going to go up there
28 to make a notification in an attempt to make a disposition
0101
01 for the children and to secure that crime scene and
02 maintain the security with the uniformed officers that were
03 there and we would be back.
04 Q So it was now his job to secure the crime scene,
05 and you were going to make your notification and find
06 someplace for the children to go?
07 A the crime scene was secured before I got there,
08 hours before I ever got there; so it was under security the
09 whole time.
10 Q You continued that security?
11 A exactly.
12 Q And then four detectives were going to go to make
13 a notification?
14 A yes.
15 Q How many detectives does it take to make a
16 notification?
17 A I don't know. I think that would depend on the
18 situation that you were in.
19 I don't know. One. It could take ten if there
20 were certain situations.
21 I don't know.
22 Q In this particular situation, when you were going
23 to O.J. Simpson's residence, how many detectives did you
24 think were necessary to make the notification?
25 A myself and my partner went up there, and we were
26 accompanied by detective Fuhrman and detective Phillips.
27 Q I know that is the fact. My question is how many
28 do you feel were necessary to go make the notification.
0102
01 A I don't think I ever even considered that.
02 How many do I think is necessary to make a
03 notification?
04 Q YES.
05 A normally we go in pairs for a number of reasons.
06 Number one, we have two people that are privy to the
07 information plus for our own personal safety, we don't go
08 places by ourselves. So a minimum of two. And the other
09 two officers went with us, which is not unusual.
10 Q So four people to make a notification is your
11 answer?
12 A No. You didn't -- two. the other two officers
13 went with us, which is not unusual.
14 Q And of the four that went, they were the four
15 highest ranking investigative detectives?
16 A No.
17 Q there were other detectives there who had been
18 assigned to this case that had jobs that exceeded yours?
19 A I don't understand that. I don't know what you
20 mean.
21 Q OKAY.
22 Were you primarily responsible for the
23 investigation of the murder scene?
24 A Myself and my partner, yes.
25 Q Thank you.
26 And you had rel