Preliminary Hearing - July 5, 1994
0001
01 IN THE MUNICIPAL COURT OF LOS ANGELES JUDICIAL DISTRICT
02 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES, STATE OF CALIFORNIA
03 HON. KATHLEEN KENNEDY-POWELL, JUDGE DEPARTMENT 105
04 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, ) NO. BA097211
04 )
05 PLAINTIFF, )
05 )
06 VS. ) VOLUME 6
06 )
07 )
07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
08 AKA O.J. SIMPSON, )
08 )
09 )
09 DEFENDANT. )
10 _______________________________________)
10
11
11
12 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
12
13 TUESDAY, JULY 5, 1994
13
14
14
15 APPEARANCES:
15
16 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MARCIA CLARK
16 WILLIAM HODGMAN
17 DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
17
18
18
19 FOR THE DEFENDANT: ROBERT SHAPIRO
19 GERALD UELMEN
20 PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
20
21
21
22
22
23 SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES
23
24
24
25
25
26
26 ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
27 LAURIE A. SMALL, CSR #4654
27 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
28
28
0002
01 EVIDENCE MOTIONS
01
02 I N D E X
02
03
03
04 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT(S): IN EVIDENCE
04
05 1 - "PROCEEDINGS OF THE 4
05 INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM
06 ON FORENSIC HAIR
06 COMPARISONS" ARTICLE
07
07 2 - "FORENSIC SCIENCE, AN 4
08 INTRODUCTION TO
08 CRIMINALISTICS" ARTICLE
09
09
0003
01 PRELIMINARY HEARING
01
02
02
03 I N D E X
03 VOIR
04 PEOPLE'S WITNESS(ES): DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS DIRE
04
05 ALLAN PARK 6 46 71
05
06 BRIAN KATO KAELIN 76
06
07
07
08
08
09
09
10 -O0O-
10
11
11
12 EXHIBITS
12
13
13
14 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT(S) FOR IDENTIFICATION
14
15 6 - SERIES OF PHOTOS 8
15
16 7 - DIAGRAM 10
16
17
17
18
18
0004
01 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
02 TUESDAY, JULY 5, 1994
03 9:00 A.M.
04 -O0O-
05
06 THE COURT: Good morning.
07 MR. SHAPIRO: Good morning, Your Honor.
08 MR. UELMEN: Good morning, your honor.
09 MS. CLARK: Good morning, Your Honor.
10 MR. HODGMAN: Good morning, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: We are once again on the record in the
12 case of People versus Simpson.
13 The defendant is present with counsel. The
14 people are represented.
15 There is one item of housekeeping, in essence,
16 that I'd like to take care of -- and we did discuss this
17 in chambers and I didn't every follow through back on
18 the record -- and that was with reference to the motion
19 with regard to the hair and the hair samples.
20 The prosecution had marked two exhibits which
21 had never been formally moved into evidence. They were
22 marked for identification only. Those were a couple of
23 articles that Ms. Kestler had referred to.
24 Ms. Clark, do the people want to make a motion
25 with regard to those exhibits at this time?
26 MS. CLARK: Yes, thank you, Your Honor.
27 The people would ask the court to receive them
28 into evidence for the purpose of that hearing.
0005
01 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, do you wish to be heard?
02 MR. SHAPIRO: Submit it, Your Honor.
03 THE COURT: All right.
04 People's 1 and 2 then will be received with
05 regard to that particular motion.
06 Now, with reference to the preliminary hearing
07 we are in progress on, do you have a witness now that
08 you can call?
09 MS. CLARK: Yes, I do, Your Honor.
10 I would like to apprise the court of the fact
11 that the people have filed a response to the motion to
12 suppress. It was FAX-ed to counsel, and I'd like to
13 also serve counsel on the record with a conformed copy
14 of the motion as well.
15 I'm handing a copy to Mr. Uelmen.
16 It has been filed with the court.
17 THE COURT: For the record, the court received that
18 about ten minutes ago.
19 MS. CLARK: Yes.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 MR. SHAPIRO: We received it at 7:26 this morning.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 Call your next witness at this time.
24 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
25 People call Mr. Allan Park.
26 THE COURT: Face the clerk and rise your right
27 hand, please.
28 \ \
0006
01 THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear the testimony you
02 may give in the cause now pending before this court
03 shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
04 truth, so help you God?
05 THE WITNESS: I do.
06
07 Allan Park,
08 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
09 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
10 follows:
11 THE CLERK: Please be seated.
12 State and spell your name for the record.
13 THE WITNESS: Allan Park. A-l-l-a-n, p-a-r-k.
14 THE COURT: You may inquire.
15 MS. CLARK: Thank you, Your Honor.
16
17 DIRECT EXAMINATION
18
19 BY MS. CLARK:
20 Q Mr. Park, tell us what you do for a living.
21 A I drive limousines.
22 Q And how long have you been doing that, sir?
23 A I was working for town and country limo for
24 about three months. Three and a half months.
25 Q And as of June the 12th, 1994, were you
26 working for town and country limousine?
27 A Yes, I was.
28 Q Were you a limo driver for that company, sir?
0007
01 A Yes, I was.
02 Q On the date of June the 12th, 1994, did you
03 have an order for pick-up in Brentwood that evening?
04 A Yes, I did.
05 Q And what was your order?
06 A My order was to pick up O.J. Simpson at
07 360 Rockingham.
08 Q And what time were you supposed to be there?
09 A 10:45.
10 Q Where were you supposed to take him?
11 A To L.A. airport.
12 Q Now, had you ever been to that area before?
13 A No, I haven't.
14 Q And what time did you get there?
15 A I arrived at about 10:25. I got there
16 early. I wanted to make sure I knew where the house
17 was, and we're always told to be there ten minutes
18 early.
19 Q So you were there actually 20 minutes early.
20 A Yes.
21 Q When you arrived there at 10:25, where did you
22 park?
23 A I parked on Ashford, pointing east. Or west,
24 that would be. Sorry.
25 Q Was that near a gate of some kind?
26 A Yes, it was. It was across the street from
27 the gate.
28 Q And was that gate that we're referring to, was
0008
01 that gate part of the property of 360 Rockingham?
02 A Yes, it was.
03 Q So you parked across the street from the
04 residence on the Ashford side?
05 A Yes, I did.
06 MR. SHAPIRO: I'm going to object, Your Honor.
07 That is not what his testimony was.
08 THE COURT: Well, he just stated that's where he
09 parked.
10 Is that where you parked?
11 THE WITNESS: That's where I parked.
12 MR. SHAPIRO: He said it was across the street from
13 the residence. That was not his testimony.
14 THE COURT: Where exactly were you parked, sir?
15 THE WITNESS: I was parked right on Ashford, across
16 the street from the residence.
17 THE COURT: All right. The objection is
18 overruled.
19 MS. CLARK: Thank you, Your Honor.
20 I have a series of photographs, 'A' through
21 'F'. I ask they be marked People's next in order. I
22 believe it's 5 -- 6.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q Showing you what's been marked as People's 6,
26 can you tell me if you recognize this location, sir?
27 A Yes, I do.
28 Q I'm going to put it up here so you can see it.
0009
01 Can you see it?
02 A Yes.
03 Q Here's a pointer if you need it.
04 First of all, directing your attention to the
05 photograph labeled 'B', does that appear to be a corner
06 to you, sir?
07 A Yes, it does.
08 Q Can you point out which side is which
09 street? Can you tell from that photograph?
10 A It's kind of hard.
11 Q All right.
12 Let me direct your attention then to
13 photograph 'C'.
14 You want to step down and look at it.
15 A Okay.
16 Q Can you orient yourself now?
17 A Oh, yeah. That's Rockingham.
18 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has
19 gestured to the photograph labeled 'C' and said, "that's
20 Rockingham."
21 BY MS. CLARK:
22 Q So the street shown where the police car is
23 and where that white Bronco is farther down the street,
24 that's Rockingham?
25 A I believe so, yes.
26 Q Okay. Then in photograph 'B', can you tell
27 us what streets are shown?
28 A Well, it looks like the corner of Ashford and
0010
01 Rockingham.
02 Q Can you point out to us which one is Ashford?
03 A This one, to the left.
04 Q Okay.
05 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has pointed
06 out the left street indicated as you face the
07 photograph.
08 BY MS. CLARK:
09 Q And which side is Rockingham?
10 A This side with the police car.
11 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has pointed
12 to the area shown with the police car in photograph 'B'.
13 I have a diagram, Your Honor. I'd ask that
14 be marked as People's 7.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 BY MS. CLARK:
17 Q Showing you People's 7, sir, can you tell us
18 if you recognize what's depicted in that diagram?
19 A Yes, I can.
20 Q What is it?
21 A It looks like a diagram of the residence.
22 Q Now, on that diagram, can you show us roughly
23 where you parked when you first arrived at 360
24 Rockingham at 10:25?
25 A I was on this side of the street of Ashford,
26 parked almost parallel with the gate.
27 MS. CLARK: And for the record, the witness has
28 pointed to the very top of the diagram, that would
0011
01 appear to be across the street from the residence and
02 parallel to the gate indicated by two horizontal lines,
03 one slightly to the -- one slightly lower than the
04 other.
05 BY MS. CLARK:
06 Q Can you point out the area you're referring to
07 as the gate, sir, for the record?
08 A As the gate?
09 Q Um-hum.
10 A This area right here.
11 Q Thank you.
12 MS. CLARK: The witness has pointed out that area.
13 BY MS. CLARK:
14 Q I'm going to ask you to write on the diagram,
15 if you will, write "gate" where you're indicating gate.
16 A Write "gate"?
17 Q Yeah, the word.
18 Is there another gate indicated in that
19 diagram?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Can you write that down also, sir?
22 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has done
23 so. He has indicated with the word "gate" at the top
24 of the diagram where the two lines indicated earlier,
25 just above where it says "driveway." He's indicated
26 "gate."
27 And then at the bottom of the drive -- of the
28 diagram where it's indicated "driveway," he has
0012
01 indicated "gate" again.
02 Can the court see that?
03 THE COURT: Yes, I can.
04 BY MS. CLARK:
05 Q Now, what route did you take to get to that
06 location, sir?
07 A I came up Rockingham on this side going north
08 and I was going a little fast so I missed the house, saw
09 the address, made a right onto Ashford, went halfway
10 down to Ashford and made a U-turn, came back and parked
11 where I said earlier.
12 Q Now, was that a stretch limo or a regular
13 size? Can you tell us how big it was?
14 A It was a stretch.
15 Q Did that make it difficult for you to make
16 turns?
17 A Yeah.
18 Q So you got to the location across the street
19 from the gate, on the Ashford side of the house, at
20 10:25 and parked there?
21 A Um-hum; correct.
22 Q Is that "yes"?
23 A Correct.
24 Q What happened next?
25 A I had a little bit of time, so I just stepped
26 out of the car and had a cigarette and listened to the
27 radio for a little bit and --
28 Q When you stepped out of the car, where did you
0013
01 go?
02 A I just went to the back of the limousine, sat
03 on the curb.
04 Q And after you finished your cigarette, what
05 did you do?
06 A Got back in the car and proceeded to wait
07 another five minutes or so.
08 At about 10:40 is when I pulled up to the
09 front gate. After I came around first -- I came around
10 Ashford onto Rockingham, looked in the driveway and it
11 just didn't look accessible as the other driveway, so I
12 backed up and came back over to Ashford.
13 Q All right.
14 So you got back in your car at about what time
15 after having the cigarette?
16 A 10 -- just before 10:40.
17 Q And what did you do then?
18 A Just what I told you.
19 Q Okay. You drove down Ashford?
20 A Yes. Made a left on Rockingham, looked at
21 the driveway and just -- it didn't look easy to get
22 into, so I backed straight back up and went back to the
23 Ashford gate.
24 Q So was it 10:40 at the point when you reached
25 the Rockingham gate?
26 A It was, you know, about the time. It was --
27 there was only a 30 second interview -- interval or so
28 from me coming to this gate, going back to there. It
0014
01 was about 10:40 when I pulled up to the gate on Ashford.
02 Q So was it about 10:39 when you pulled down to
03 the Rockingham gate?
04 A Yes, I would say that.
05 Q When you pulled down to the Rockingham gate,
06 you say you looked down the driveway?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Would that mean, sir, that your driver's side
09 window was parallel to the driveway?
10 A Yes, it was.
11 Q And so you were right next to this area here
12 that I'm indicating with my pen, which is just above the
13 line that seems to indicate the edge of the driveway
14 uppermost on the Rockingham side?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Now, why were you looking up that driveway,
17 for what purpose?
18 A To drive into it.
19 Q And why did it seem inaccessible to you?
20 A It just seemed too narrow. The two walls
21 here, and just the way the cars were and the way the
22 driveway bent this way, it didn't look as easy as the
23 other side, as coming in straight ahead and then making
24 the turn.
25 Q So it looked a little bit too tight to get up
26 to the front door from that gate?
27 A Yes.
28 Q So you were looking carefully through that
0015
01 window to assess whether or not you could make the turn?
02 A Yeah.
03 Q Did you notice any white Ford Bronco parked on
04 the Rockingham side near the gate?
05 A No, I didn't.
06 Q Would you have seen it had it been parked
07 there next to the gate?
08 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection; calls for speculation.
09 THE COURT: Sustained as to the form of the
10 question.
11 BY MS. CLARK:
12 Q Given the manner in which you were looking at
13 that location when you pulled up to the Rockingham gate,
14 would that white Ford Bronco have been right in your
15 field of view?
16 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection; calls for speculation.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 BY MS. CLARK:
19 Q You can answer.
20 A I wouldn't say I was -- it was right in my
21 exact sight. If --
22 Q Was it in your field of view where you were
23 looking --
24 A No.
25 Q -- towards the driveway?
26 Was that area -- let me indicate with my pen.
27 Were you able to see this area as you were
28 looking up the driveway?
0016
01 A Yes, I was.
02 MS. CLARK: For the record, I'm indicating the area
03 just above the line that appears to indicate the upper
04 boundary of the driveway.
05 BY MS. CLARK:
06 Q Okay. Were you able to see this area?
07 A Yes, I was.
08 Q And as you were looking down the driveway you
09 could see this area that I'm indicating with your pen?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you did not see the white Ford Bronco?
12 A No, I didn't.
13 Q Thank you.
14 Now, that was 10:40 approximately, or 10:39,
15 you said?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And then what did you do? After you pulled
18 up to that Rockingham gate, you indicated.
19 A I backed straight back up and made another
20 left on Ashford and came up to this gate, the Ashford
21 gate.
22 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness pointed to
23 the Ashford gate.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q Where did you park when you came back to the
26 Ashford side?
27 A I pulled in frontwards in the limousine and,
28 you know, the front bumper was just about touching the
0017
01 gate.
02 Q So at that point, was the front of your limo
03 pointing into the driveway?
04 A Yes, it was.
05 Q And what time was it at that point when you
06 pulled up to the gate facing into the driveway on the
07 Ashford side?
08 A About 10:40.
09 Q What happened next?
10 A I turned off my lights and I put -- I just had
11 my parking lights on. I stepped out of the car and
12 rang the intercom, which is just to the left by the --
13 Q Can you please show us where that is?
14 A It would be right about here.
15 Q Let me let you a mark that.
16 Why don't you just mark that with an 'I',
17 where the intercom was.
18 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has placed
19 an 'I' on the diagram at what appears to be the --
20 THE WITNESS: It's not that exact spot.
21 MS. CLARK: Okay.
22 -- Near one of the lines indicating "gate" on
23 the diagram that is closest to the Ashford side.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q And when you pressed the intercom, could
26 you -- was there a sound that it made?
27 A Yeah. It made a buzzing noise or something
28 like that.
0018
01 Q And what happened after you buzzed?
02 A There was no answer.
03 Q What did you do?
04 A I continued to buzz the bell a few times after
05 that.
06 Q Did you get an answer?
07 A No.
08 Q Now can you tell me, sir, at that point, were
09 you able to see the house itself?
10 A Yes, I was.
11 Q Were there lights on in the house?
12 A There was one on upstairs.
13 Q And downstairs?
14 A Not that I can see, no. I thought they were
15 off.
16 Q From what you could tell, all the lights
17 appeared to be off downstairs?
18 A Yes.
19 Q For how long did you continue to ring the
20 bell?
21 A I rang it off and on until about 10:50 before
22 I called my boss.
23 Q So from 10:40 to 10:50, you continued to ring
24 the bell.
25 A Yeah.
26 Q And you got no response?
27 A No.
28 Q When you were ringing the bell, could you tell
0019
01 whether -- tell us whether you were facing into the
02 driveway or away? How were you standing?
03 A I was standing right in front of the gate.
04 Q And which way were you facing?
05 A Kind of southeast. Not looking straight
06 through the gate, but just facing the intercom.
07 Q And facing the intercom meant that you were
08 facing the driveway?
09 A Towards the driveway, yeah. It's -- not
10 exactly looking straight into the driveway. Kind of
11 catty-corner looking at the wall.
12 Q What wall is that?
13 A This wall here. Just the big pillar.
14 MS. CLARK: And for the record, the witness has
15 indicated the box area just to the right of the place
16 where he put 'I'.
17 BY MS. CLARK:
18 Q Are you able to see the driveway from where
19 you're standing at the intercom?
20 A Yes.
21 Q You continued to ring the bell until 10:50 and
22 you got no answer.
23 A Correct.
24 Q What happened at that point?
25 A At that point I made a phone call, paging my
26 boss, which I waited for him to call back. He called
27 back at about 10:55.
28 Q Now, did you call your -- was your boss the
0020
01 first person you called?
02 A I paged him first and I wasn't sure if the
03 page went through, so I called my mom and had her get a
04 phone number for me which was his house number, and I
05 called back on the house number and nobody was there.
06 And right after I hung up, he called back.
07 Q What time was it when you paged your boss?
08 A Just about 10:50.
09 Q Well, you were ringing the bell until 10:50?
10 A Um-hum.
11 Q Is that "yes"?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Then you paged him, you said?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Then you called your mom.
16 A Yes.
17 Q And then you paged him again.
18 A No. I called his house.
19 Q You called his house.
20 A And there was no answer. And after I hung up
21 the phone, I was called back. The page was
22 responded. He called me back.
23 Q And during -- between the time that you paged
24 your boss and he called back, what did you do? Did you
25 get out of the car again?
26 A Yeah. I got out of the car and rang the bell
27 a couple more times.
28 Q So you had paged your boss, called your
0021
01 mother, called his home and then got out of the car and
02 rang the bell again?
03 A A couple times, yeah.
04 Q A couple times?
05 A Yeah.
06 Q Was there an answer?
07 A No.
08 Q Did you get back in the car?
09 A Yeah. When the phone rang.
10 Q So you heard the phone ring inside the car.
11 A Yeah. I had the door open. The car door
12 was open.
13 Q I see.
14 So the driver's side door was open?
15 A Um-hum.
16 Q Is that "yes"?
17 A Yes, yes.
18 Q And then you went -- he -- when you were at
19 the intercom buzzing again, you could hear the phone
20 ringing inside the car?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You got back inside the car.
23 What happened next?
24 A My boss was on the phone and I just told him,
25 I said, "I don't think anybody's home." And what he
26 told me was that he said, "Mr. Simpson's always running
27 late, so just make sure you hang out until about 11:15,
28 and if he's not there by then, just go ahead and come on
0022
01 home."
02 Q Did he give you some direction about what to
03 look for in the house?
04 A Yeah. He asked me if there was a light on
05 in -- you know, 'cause I told him there was no lights
06 on.
07 He asked me if there was a light on that
08 resembled like a pantry or something like that that was
09 behind the garage area, and I just told him no, I didn't
10 see any lights on downstairs at all.
11 Q What time was it when your boss called you
12 back?
13 A About 10:55.
14 Q So you had the -- he called you back at 10:55,
15 you had the conversation with him that you've recounted
16 for us.
17 And after you had that conversation with him,
18 what did you do?
19 A As before, I was going to hang up, that's when
20 I saw this white male come out from behind the house.
21 Q Were you seated in the car at the time?
22 A Yes, I was.
23 Q Was your driver's door open or closed?
24 A I -- from what I can remember, it was open.
25 Q You saw a white male step out where, if you
26 can indicate on the diagram.
27 A He came out from this way. He came out
28 towards the driveway.
0023
01 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness is
02 indicating what appears to be a path area to the right
03 of the driveway as it's indicated on the Ashford side.
04 BY MS. CLARK:
05 Q Do you have the pen still?
06 A No.
07 Q Could you indicate with an 'X' roughly the
08 general area where you first saw that white male.
09 A Where I first saw him?
10 Q Yes.
11 Could you make it a little bigger.
12 Thank you.
13 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has done
14 so, placing a blue 'X' in the area previously indicated.
15 BY MS. CLARK:
16 Q From where you were seated at that time, sir,
17 can you show us where -- what area was visible to you of
18 the driveway.
19 A It would be about -- I could see to about the
20 corner of the house, a little bit farther back, to about
21 this area.
22 Q All right.
23 I'm going to ask you to draw a line indicating
24 that area of visibility that you've just pointed us with
25 the pointer.
26 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has done
27 so.
28 \ \
0024
01 BY MS. CLARK:
02 Q Can you tell us, is there a porch light at the
03 area marked "front door," at the front door of the
04 residence? Was there a porch light?
05 A From what I can remember, yes.
06 Q How much light did that offer? How much area
07 did it light up?
08 A You want me to draw it?
09 Q Sure.
10 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has drawn a
11 line. It appears to be an arc in front of the two
12 circles closest to the driveway to the left of the front
13 door area.
14 BY MS. CLARK:
15 Q Was that a very bright light that came from
16 the porch light?
17 A Not that I remember. I mean, it was a normal
18 porch light.
19 Q Okay. So the porch light was lit, but the
20 house was dark downstairs.
21 A Correct.
22 Q Now, the lighting of the driveway, can you
23 tell us how much of the driveway was lit and how much
24 was in darkness from your vantage point, from where you
25 were in the limousine outside the gate on the Ashford
26 side?
27 A Well, this area here is pretty hard to see.
28 Anything back here was -- it was dark.
0025
01 Q Can you indicate that again? What part was
02 in darkness, from what point back?
03 A I'd say from about here back.
04 Q Are you indicating like from the corner of the
05 garage uppermost?
06 A Yeah.
07 Q In a line?
08 A From my visual point where I -- you know,
09 where I told you I can see on back.
10 Q I see.
11 Can I ask you to draw a straight line from the
12 area -- I guess you have indicated the corner of the
13 garage here back to indicate what was in darkness.
14 A From there back.
15 Q I am going to indicate for clarity with hash
16 marks to indicate that that is the area you say was
17 dark, all right?
18 Now, was there a light somewhere above the
19 garage?
20 A From what I can remember, I think there was --
21 there was a light, but it was very high up and it didn't
22 offer that much light. I think there was some trees
23 around there.
24 Q Okay. Now, when your boss called back at
25 10:55, during that phone call you said you saw the white
26 male come out on the Ashford side path.
27 A Correct.
28 Q And about what time was that?
0026
01 A In between -- 10:56, 10:57.
02 Q Can you describe that white male for us?
03 A Five foot eleven, 170 pounds. Blond hair,
04 medium length.
05 Q Was he holding anything?
06 A He had a flashlight.
07 Q How long did the conversation with your boss
08 last?
09 A Three minutes. I don't know.
10 Q Three minutes?
11 A Two minutes, three minutes. I don't know.
12 I can't remember.
13 Q Pardon?
14 A I can't remember.
15 Q It was not a long conversation.
16 A No. It was very brief.
17 Q So your estimate right now is about two, three
18 minutes?
19 A Yeah, I guess.
20 Q Okay. Did you see something else after you
21 saw that white male on the Ashford side path?
22 A Almost simultaneously as I saw him, I saw
23 somebody cross the driveway and go into the house from
24 this area, came out.
25 Q Can you please put an 'X' where you first saw
26 that person?
27 THE COURT: I think you already have an 'X' on the
28 diagram. Maybe you should make that an 'X' sub 1 or
0027
01 sub 2.
02 THE WITNESS: You want me to circle the 'X'?
03 BY MS. CLARK:
04 Q Was that person a male or female?
05 A I couldn't tell.
06 Q Can you describe the person?
07 A Six foot, 200 pounds.
08 Q Black or white?
09 A Black.
10 Q What were they wearing?
11 A Just seemed to be dark clothes.
12 Q Why don't you put 'P' for person where you put
13 that 'X' before.
14 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has done
15 so.
16 BY MS. CLARK:
17 Q So you saw someone, African American, six
18 foot, 200 pounds, wearing all dark clothing?
19 A From what I can recall, yes.
20 Q Could you tell if that person had anything in
21 their hands?
22 A No.
23 Q And was that person moving quickly or slowly?
24 A Walking pretty fast.
25 Q And where did that person go?
26 A Into the front door.
27 Q Of this residence?
28 A Yes.
0028
01 Q And when they walked -- when that person
02 walked into the front door, what happened next?
03 A A couple lights came on and I was still
04 waiting, you know, just waiting for this white male to
05 open the gate or -- he was just standing there. I kind
06 of recognized him, he waved at me.
07 Q So you saw this person walk into the front
08 door of the house, and did the lights come on downstairs
09 immediately?
10 A Yes. A light came on in the entryway.
11 Q As that person passed through the porch light
12 going into the front door, could you see who that person
13 was?
14 A No.
15 Q Could you tell at that point whether the
16 person was male or female?
17 A I couldn't tell.
18 Q Okay. Immediately after that person entered
19 the door and the lights went on downstairs, what
20 happened next?
21 A I waited a couple seconds to see if the white
22 male was going to come and open the gate, which he
23 didn't, so I got back out of the car and buzzed the gate
24 again. And at that time I got an answer.
25 Q Now, wait.
26 How long was it -- between the time you saw
27 the person enter the front door, the lights went on, you
28 buzzed the gate.
0029
01 How much time elapsed between the lights going
02 on and the person entering the front door and you
03 buzzing the gate?
04 A 15, 20 seconds.
05 Q So 15 or 20 seconds after the person entered
06 the house, you buzzed the gate.
07 A Yes.
08 Q What happened then?
09 A The intercom was answered by what I believe
10 was Mr. Simpson, and he told me that he overslept and he
11 just got out of the shower and that he'd be out -- he'd
12 be down in a minute.
13 Q And when you say you believe Mr. Simpson, is
14 that someone you see in court today, sir?
15 A Yes, it is.
16 Q Could you please point him out.
17 A He's right here.
18 Q And what's he wearing today?
19 MR. SHAPIRO: We'll stipulate that he's identified
20 Mr. Simpson.
21 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 BY MS. CLARK:
24 Q So Mr. Simpson told you that he had overslept
25 and he just got out of the shower?
26 A Correct.
27 Q And he'd be down in a few minutes?
28 A Um-hum.
0030
01 Q Is that "yes"?
02 A Yes, yes.
03 Q The person that you saw walk into the house
04 after which you saw the lights go on, could you tell
05 where they came from, whether it was Rockingham or the
06 garage area?
07 A I couldn't tell what direction he was coming
08 from. I could tell you what direction he was walking.
09 Q Yeah. He was walking towards the front door?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. Can you -- but you couldn't tell where
12 he was coming from?
13 A No.
14 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object to
15 the form of the question.
16 The witness has testified he couldn't tell
17 whether it was a male or female, and now Ms. Clark is
18 saying "You couldn't tell where he was coming from."
19 THE COURT: Sustained. Assumes a fact not in
20 evidence at this point.
21 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you.
22 BY MS. CLARK:
23 Q You couldn't tell where that person was coming
24 from?
25 A Correct.
26 Q After you had the conversation with
27 Mr. Simpson, what happened next?
28 A I got back in the car and waited for the gate
0031
01 to be opened, which still took another 30 seconds or so.
02 Q Did you see where the male white was at that
03 point?
04 A He stood there pretty much the whole time.
05 Q Could you see whether he walked over to the
06 garage area at some point while you were waiting for him
07 to open the gate and talking to Mr. Simpson?
08 A Not that I can recall, no.
09 Q Was the male white and the other person you
10 saw walking into the front door dressed in all dark
11 clothing, were they ever on the driveway at the same
12 point in time?
13 A I don't remember that. I wouldn't --
14 Q You don't remember seeing him on the driveway
15 at the same point --
16 A No --
17 Q -- At the same time?
18 A No.
19 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, the witness has not had a
20 chance to complete his answer.
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 Please let the witness finish entirely before
23 you make an additional statement.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q Had you completed your answer?
26 A Yes.
27 Q At some point did the male white open the gate
28 for you?
0032
01 A Yes, he did.
02 Q How long had you been waiting at this --
03 strike that. Let me ask you this.
04 After you spoke to the defendant on the
05 intercom, how long after that did you have to wait for
06 this other man to open the gate?
07 A 30 seconds or more.
08 Q What happened next?
09 A He came towards me and opened the gate. I
10 drove in.
11 Q Can you tell us where you parked the car?
12 A I parked it right in front with the driver's
13 side window parallel to the front door.
14 Q What happened next?
15 A I popped the trunk and got out.
16 Q Did you notice whether anything was outside
17 the front door?
18 A Yes. There was a couple bags on the ground.
19 Q What kind?
20 A Just black duffel bags.
21 Q Did you notice whether there were any other
22 bags outside?
23 A There was another one laying back towards the
24 garage area, towards the back of the two cars that were
25 parked in there.
26 Q Were there cars parked in the driveway?
27 A From what I remember, yes.
28 Q Where were they?
0033
01 A There was two parked right here.
02 Q Do you remember what kind of cars they were?
03 A I know one was a Rolls Royce, and the other I
04 couldn't tell.
05 Q Which one was closest to the house?
06 A I can't remember that.
07 Q You can't remember whether it was the Rolls or
08 the other one?
09 A No.
10 Q Could you put two C's where you think the cars
11 were parked on the driveway.
12 Where in relationship to those two cars did
13 you see the other bag?
14 A It was back here about on the ground.
15 Q Was it on pavement or was it on grass, if you
16 know?
17 A From what I remember, it was on the driveway.
18 Q Could you put a 'B' where you think you saw
19 that other bag?
20 MS. CLARK: And for the record, the witness has
21 placed two C's where he indicated "car" on the driveway,
22 which would be by the gate that opens on Rockingham, and
23 he placed a 'B' just to the right of the second 'C'.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q Can you describe that bag at all?
26 A I couldn't describe it from where I was. It
27 just seemed to be another dark duffel bag.
28 Q After you popped the trunk and got out of the
0034
01 car, what happened next?
02 A The white male approached me.
03 Q Did he say something to you?
04 A Yeah. He asked me how long I was ringing the
05 bell.
06 Q Did you tell him?
07 A Yeah.
08 Q What did you tell him?
09 A About 15 minutes.
10 Q Did you have -- what else happened? Did you
11 continue to talk to him?
12 A At -- I talked to him for a couple minutes.
13 Q Do you remember him asking you about an
14 earthquake?
15 A Yeah. He asked if I felt one.
16 Q Had you?
17 A No.
18 Q Did you tell him that?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Did he ask you for anything?
21 A Well, later on he asked me for a flashlight.
22 Q I see.
23 After you finished talking to this person, did
24 you see what he did or where he went?
25 A He walked to the corner of the garage at one
26 point. He was calling the dog. I was petting the
27 dog.
28 Q Can you show us again where he walked to?
0035
01 A He was standing by the corner of the garage
02 here.
03 Q Would you please put a circle where you have
04 indicated to us earlier that you saw him after you had
05 the conversation.
06 MS. CLARK: And for the record, the witness has
07 done so, placing a circle at the southern most tip of
08 the garage.
09 BY MS. CLARK:
10 Q Now, did you see whether or not he went
11 around -- I'm going to indicate to you with my pen --
12 around to the southern most area south of the garage?
13 A I can't recall if he did or not.
14 Q You don't recall if he did or not?
15 A Yes.
16 Q But the last time you saw him was in the area
17 you've indicated with the circle?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What happened next? You saw him walk to that
20 portion of the garage. What happened next?
21 A He kept calling the dog and the dog didn't
22 want to leave, so he came back over.
23 Q What happened next?
24 A Well, at about that time Mr. Simpson came out
25 of the house.
26 Q And when the defendant came out of the house,
27 was he carrying anything?
28 A From what I remember, he had a like Gucci
0036
01 garment bag.
02 Q And what did he do with it?
03 A He sat it on the ground. I put it in the
04 trunk.
05 Q And what about the duffel bags?
06 A I picked those up and asked him where he'd
07 like them. He said inside the car.
08 Q Did you put them inside the car?
09 A Yes.
10 Q Can you tell us how much time passed between
11 the time you saw the person in dark clothing, six foot,
12 200 pounds, go into the house and the defendant come out
13 of the house?
14 A Five minutes or so. At the most five
15 minutes.
16 Q Now, this male white that you're referring to,
17 did he come back from the garage area?
18 A Yes, he did.
19 Q And did you see him have a conversation with
20 the defendant when he returned?
21 A He -- from what I can remember, he helped
22 him -- at some point they got the golf bags out of one
23 of the cars and brought that over to the car. I was
24 sitting at the back of the trunk most of the time.
25 Q What were you doing at the back of the trunk?
26 A Just waiting for him to bring out bags.
27 Q And your limo was pointing towards what would
28 ultimately be the Rockingham gate?
0037
01 A Yes.
02 Q Do you recall whether the male white had a
03 conversation with the defendant about an earthquake?
04 A I think he -- the defendant heard us talking
05 about it and as he was walking by getting his bags he
06 said, "oh, we had a earthquake?" Like a question.
07 Q So after all the bags were placed in the
08 trunk, where were you and the defendant and the male
09 white?
10 A At one point the defendant and the male white
11 walked into the entry of the house, right in the front
12 door area, and I was standing next to the back door
13 waiting to open it.
14 Q Before that, was there ever a point when the
15 three of you were standing behind the trunk as you were
16 arranging the bags in the trunk?
17 A I don't remember all at the same time. I
18 mean, it could have been.
19 Q The bag that you've indicated with the 'B' on
20 the diagram, what ever happened with that bag?
21 A We were -- we were standing -- Mr. Simpson and
22 I were towards the back of the limousine and the white
23 male offered to go get the bag, but Mr. Simpson said,
24 "no, that's okay, that's okay, let me get it."
25 Q The defendant said, "that's okay, let me get
26 it"?
27 A Um-hum.
28 Q Is that "yes"?
0038
01 A Yes.
02 Q And did he?
03 A Yeah. Yes.
04 Q Yes.
05 So the defendant went over and got that bag
06 that you've indicated with a 'B'.
07 A Yes.
08 Q And did he bring it back to the limousine?
09 A Yes, I think so.
10 Q Did that go into the trunk or into the inside
11 of the car?
12 A I don't remember that.
13 Q You didn't put it in?
14 A No.
15 Q The defendant did.
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, after all the bags were loaded, what
18 happened next?
19 A After all the bags were loaded, that's when, I
20 guess, the defendant went to go lock the house up or
21 whatever, and we got ready to take off. We had to go.
22 We were in a very big hurry.
23 Q You indicated that the defendant walked into
24 the house with the male white at some point?
25 A Yes.
26 Q And for how long did they go into the house?
27 A Not more than a minute.
28 Q Was that before or after all the bags were
0039
01 loaded?
02 A From what I can remember, after.
03 Q So all the bags were loaded and they stepped
04 into the house briefly and came back out?
05 A Yes.
06 Q And when they came back out, could you hear
07 what they were talking about?
08 A No.
09 Q Do you recall hearing a question about
10 searching the property?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What did you hear?
13 A As they came out and came towards the car, the
14 only thing I remember that I can hear was, "you go
15 around this way and I'll go around the other way."
16 Q Who said that?
17 A Mr. Simpson and the white male.
18 Q Who said, "you go one way or and I'll go the
19 other"?
20 A Mr. Simpson.
21 Q And what happened then?
22 A The white male walked towards the corner of
23 the garage where I indicated before, and I closed all
24 the trunks up and everything and I thought they were
25 going to walk around the property.
26 I was going to go with them just to, you know,
27 make sure nothing was back there, and at that time
28 Mr. Simpson said, "we gotta go."
0040
01 Q So the defendant said, "you go one way, I'll
02 go the other," the male white walked to the southern
03 edge of the garage that you've indicated with a
04 circle --
05 A Um-hum, yes.
06 Q -- and the defendant said, "let's go."
07 A Yes.
08 Q Did you see where the male white went, whether
09 he went to the lower southern most portion of the
10 property below the garage at that point, or were you
11 paying attention?
12 A I wasn't paying attention to that.
13 Q Then did you leave?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What gate did you leave from?
16 A The Rockingham gate.
17 Q And which way did you go on Rockingham as you
18 exited the gate?
19 A I made a left.
20 Q Did you look to see whether any cars were
21 parked on the right side as you faced the driveway of
22 Rockingham outside the residence?
23 A I didn't look to see.
24 Q You weren't looking at the parked cars?
25 A Yeah.
26 Q Were you looking to see if there was traffic?
27 A Yes, of course.
28 Q Can you tell us how many bags the defendant
0041
01 loaded into the car?
02 A Five, if I can recall.
03 Q Five.
04 You went left on Rockingham?
05 A Yes.
06 Q Can you tell us what the defendant was wearing
07 that night when you left for the airport?
08 A From what I can remember, some like stone wash
09 blue jeans and a white, like a polo shirt. White
10 collared shirt, golf shirt.
11 Q Do you remember what kind of shoes?
12 A No.
13 Q From what you could observe, sir, did he
14 appear to be upset or angry or nervous, the defendant?
15 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection; calls for speculation.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 BY MS. CLARK:
18 Q Can you describe the defendant's behavior that
19 night when you saw him at the point that you were
20 packing up the car with him and getting ready to leave.
21 A Well, I've never met him before so everything
22 seemed okay to me.
23 Q Nothing seemed unusual to you?
24 A No.
25 Q Did you notice any injuries to his hands?
26 A No, I didn't.
27 Q Did his hair appear to be wet?
28 A Not that I remember.
0042
01 Q What time was it when you left, exited the
02 Rockingham gate?
03 A I'd say about 11:15.
04 Q Did you have some conversation with the
05 defendant in the limousine as you drove to the airport?
06 A Not conversation, no.
07 Q Did he say something to you?
08 A He repeated two or three times that he was
09 hot. And I can't remember whether or not if he asked
10 where the air conditioning was, but I told him he could
11 turn it on.
12 Q And did he?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And how many times did he repeat that he was
15 hot?
16 MR. SHAPIRO: It's been asked and answered.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 THE WITNESS: I said, two or three times.
19 BY MS. CLARK:
20 Q Was the window up or down?
21 A At some point --
22 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Which window?
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q Was any window up -- excuse me.
26 Was any window down?
27 A From what I can remember, he had the back
28 passenger window down.
0043
01 Q One or both?
02 A Just one that I remember.
03 Q So the window was down and the air
04 conditioning was on?
05 A Yes.
06 Q Do you -- are there lights that can be turned
07 on in the back seat of that limousine?
08 A Yes, there is.
09 Q Were those lights on or off?
10 A They were off at the time. I think he used
11 them a couple times, turned it off and on.
12 Q Did he ask you how to use them?
13 A Yeah, he was looking for it, and by the time I
14 was about to give an answer, he found it.
15 Q So he asked you how to turn on the light?
16 A He said, "where's a light switch?"
17 Q And then did the light go on?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Could you see what he was doing at that time?
20 A No, I wasn't looking.
21 Q Were you able to see any body movements?
22 A To some point.
23 Q I'm sorry?
24 A To some point.
25 Q What did you see?
26 A Well, he had his bags on the floor and I just
27 figured he was just checking that he had everything.
28 Q What body movements could you see that led you
0044
01 to believe that?
02 A That he was bending down.
03 Q Could you see arms or shoulders moving?
04 A No.
05 Q You just saw him bending down?
06 A Yes.
07 Q What was the traffic like that night?
08 A It was very light.
09 Q Were you driving fast?
10 A Um, I wasn't doing the speed limit, I'll tell
11 you that.
12 Q Now, did you -- can you recount for us the
13 route that you took to the airport?
14 A I took Rockingham down to Sunset, made a left
15 onto Sunset and went down, which would be west, to the
16 405 freeway.
17 I wasn't too familiar with the area, so the
18 only thing that I could remember was to make a left off
19 of Sunset to get onto the freeway, and at that time he
20 told me I could make a right, but I missed the street.
21 Q When you say "he" told you, you're talking
22 about the defendant?
23 A Yes.
24 Q So he was helping you with directions to the
25 airport.
26 A At that point, yes.
27 Q Did he help you again later on --
28 A He just --
0045
01 Q -- on your way to the airport?
02 A He just asked me if I wanted -- what street I
03 was going to take, and he suggested I take Sepulveda,
04 probably would be the quickest.
05 Q And did you?
06 A Yes.
07 Q What time did you get to the airport?
08 A About 11:35.
09 Q And when you got to the airport, what did you
10 do?
11 A Parked the car, popped the trunk and started
12 to help him get his bags out. I grabbed the Gucci bag
13 first, and at that time he asked me to go get one of the
14 sky caps.
15 Q So did you leave the Gucci bag there and go
16 get the sky cap?
17 A Yeah. I sat it down on the ground and I went
18 to go retrieve one, and everybody was busy, so I just
19 grabbed a luggage cart.
20 Q And what did you do with that luggage cart?
21 A I came back over to the car and he sat his
22 golf clubs on there and the Gucci bag.
23 Q And what about the two duffel bags and the
24 other bag that you indicate on the diagram with
25 a 'B'? Where did those go?
26 A He carried them.
27 Q The defendant carried them?
28 A Yeah.
0046
01 MS. CLARK: Nothing further.
02 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, do you wish to
03 cross-examine at this time?
04 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes. Thank you very much,
05 Your Honor.
06
07 CROSS-EXAMINATION
08
09 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
10 Q Good morning, Mr. Park.
11 A Good morning.
12 Q Mr. Park, you understand the serious
13 nature --
14 MS. CLARK: Objection; Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: The legal grounds for your objection?
16 MS. CLARK: It's argumentative.
17 THE COURT: I haven't yet even heard the entire
18 question.
19 Do you want to finish your question,
20 Mr. Shapiro?
21 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, I would like to. Thank you.
22 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
23 Q Do you understand the serious nature for which
24 you are testifying here today?
25 MS. CLARK: Objection, Your Honor.
26 THE COURT: And your objection is it's
27 argumentative?
28 MS. CLARK: Yes, Your Honor.
0047
1 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
MS. CLARK: WHY WOULD MR. SHAPIRO ASSUME THAT HE
2 DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE SERIOUSNESS OF THE CHARGES?
THERE HAS BEEN NO INDICATION OF THAT.
3 THE COURT: YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION, SIR.
THE WITNESS: I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN.
4 THE SERIOUSNESS OF ME TESTIFYING?
BY MR. SHAPIRO:
5 Q DO YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MATTER CONCERNS THAT YOU
ARE TESTIFYING TO?
6 A YES.
Q WHAT DOES IT CONCERN?
7 A IT CONCERNS A MURDER TRIAL.
Q AND THEREFORE, YOU WANT TO BE VERY CAREFUL WITH
8 YOUR TESTIMONY TO MAKE SURE YOU DON'T MAKE ANY ERRORS; IS THAT
CORRECT?
9 A YES.
Q AND YOU WANT TO BE VERY SURE, EVERY TIME YOU
10 TESTIFY UNDER OATH, THAT YOU DO NOT MAKE ANY ERRORS; IS THAT
CORRECT?
11 MS. CLARK: SAME OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. NO OTHER
WITNESS HAS BEEN SUBJECTED TO THIS KIND OF INTIMIDATION. THIS
12 IS HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE. THERE HAS BEEN NOTHING TO INDICATE
THIS WITNESS DOES NOT TAKE HIS OATH VERY SERIOUSLY AND IS
13 TESTIFYING AS ACCURATELY AS HE CAN.
THE COURT: THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED.
14 MR. SHAPIRO: YOU MAY ANSWER THE QUESTION, SIR.
THE WITNESS: CAN YOU REPEAT IT?
15 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
Q YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN YOU TESTIFY UNDER OATH,
16 THAT THERE IS AN OBLIGATION TO TELL THE TRUTH?
A YES.
17 Q AND HAVE YOU DONE SO?
A YES.
18 Q HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU TESTIFIED UNDER OATH
REGARDING THE SUBJECT MATTER THAT YOU TESTIFIED HERE TODAY TO?
19 A ONCE.
Q ONCE BEFORE OR ONLY ONCE?
20 A I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OF THE QUESTION.
Q HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU TESTIFIED UNDER OATH TO
21 THE SUBJECT MATTER THAT YOU HAVE TESTIFIED TO IN COURT TODAY?
A ONE TIME.
22 Q AND THAT WAS WHEN?
A WITH THE GRAND JURY.
23 Q AND YOU ALSO TESTIFIED TODAY?
A YES.
24 Q THAT WOULD BE TWICE.
A OKAY.
25 Q IS THAT CORRECT?
A CORRECT.
26 Q OKAY.
AND BEFORE THE GRAND JURY, YOU WERE UNDER OATH,
27 WERE YOU NOT?
A YES, I WAS.
28 Q THAT WAS ON JUNE 21, ABOUT A WEEK AGO; IS THAT
0048
1 CORRECT?
A CORRECT.
2 Q AND WHEN YOU TESTIFIED THERE, WAS YOUR MEMORY AS
TO THE EVENTS THAT YOU SAW AT THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE BETTER
3 THAN IT WAS TODAY?
A I WOULD SAY IT IS THE SAME.
4 Q DID YOU TESTIFY ON PAGE 257, LINE 11 IN REGARD TO
THE INDIVIDUAL YOU DESCRIBED AS A MALE OR FEMALE TODAY, "AND
5 JUST SECONDS AFTER THAT, I SAW A BLACK MALE, SIX FOOT ONE, 100
AND -- 200 POUNDS COME FROM THE AREA THAT I SAW HIM FROM, WAS
6 ABOUT A" -- DID YOU GIVE THAT TESTIMONY TO THE GRAND JURY,
SIR?
7 A IF IT IS THERE, I DID.
Q WELL, DO YOU RECALL GIVING THAT TESTIMONY TO THE
8 GRAND JURY?
A YES, I DO.
9 Q AND WAS THAT DISCREPANCY CALLED TO YOUR ATTENTION
BY ANYONE BEFORE YOU TESTIFIED TODAY?
10 A I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT --
Q HAS ANYONE POINTED OUT TO YOU BEFORE YOU
11 TESTIFIED THAT BEFORE THE GRAND JURY YOU SAID IT WAS A MALE
BLACK, AND THAT TODAY YOU GAVE TESTIMONY THAT IT WAS EITHER A
12 MALE OR FEMALE; YOU COULDN'T TELL WHICH?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. NOBODY HAS HAD A
13 CHANCE TO POINT ANYTHING OUT TO HIM. HE ONLY JUST SAID IT
TODAY.
14 THE COURT: THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: WELL, THE ONLY THING THAT I CAN SAY HERE
15 IS THAT THE PERSON THAT I DESCRIBED IS SIX -- SIX FOOT, 200
POUNDS. IT JUST SEEMS TO BE A PRETTY BIG FEMALE.
16 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
Q THAT WASN'T MY QUESTION, SIR.
17 DID ANYONE DISCUSS WITH YOU THE FACT THAT YOU
MIGHT HAVE, ON ANOTHER OCCASION, SAID IT WAS EITHER A MALE OR
18 A FEMALE; YOU COULDN'T TELL WHICH?
A YES.
19 Q WHO POINTED THAT OUT TO YOU?
A WHO POINTED WHAT OUT?
20 Q YOU TESTIFIED AT THE GRAND JURY THAT IT WAS A
MALE BLACK; IS THAT CORRECT?
21 A YES.
Q YOU TESTIFIED HERE TODAY THAT IT WAS A MALE OR
22 FEMALE; YOU COULDN'T TELL WHICH; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
23 Q PRIOR TO YOUR TESTIMONY TODAY, HAS ANYONE POINTED
OUT THAT THERE MAY BE A DISCREPANCY IN THE TESTIMONY THAT YOU
24 GAVE AT THE GRAND JURY AND THE TESTIMONY THAT YOU WERE GOING
TO GIVE TODAY?
25 A NO.
Q DID YOU EVER DESCRIBE THE PERSON AS SIX FEET, 180
26 POUNDS?
A NOT THAT I REMEMBER.
27 Q DID YOU EVER DESCRIBE THE OTHER INDIVIDUAL AS
FIVE TEN, 160 POUNDS?
28 A I COULD HAVE.
0049
1 Q DID YOU EVER DESCRIBE MR. SIMPSON AS COMING OUT
OF THE HOUSE WEARING A BLACK OVERCOAT?
2 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. VAGUE AS TO TIME.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
3 THE WITNESS: YES, I DID.
THE COURT: YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.
4 THE WITNESS: I REMEMBER HIM WEARING SOME KIND OF A
COAT.
5 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
Q DID YOU EVER TELL ANYONE THAT THE PERSON WHO CAME
6 OUT WAS WEARING AN OVERCOAT, A BLACK OVERCOAT?
A YES, I DID.
7 Q WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT WHEN MISS CLARK ASKED YOU
HOW THE MAN WAS DRESSED THIS MORNING?
8 A I GUESS I JUST DIDN'T GIVE FULL DETAIL.
Q DID YOU SAY THAT TO THE GRAND JURY, THAT THE MAN
9 WAS WEARING AN OVERCOAT?
A I DON'T REMEMBER.
10 Q DID YOU READ YOUR GRAND JURY TESTIMONY BEFORE YOU
TESTIFIED HERE?
11 A NO, I DIDN'T. NO, I DIDN'T.
Q WAS IT SHOWN TO YOU BY ANYONE?
12 A NO, IT WASN'T.
Q DID YOU DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY BEFORE YOU
13 TESTIFIED HERE TODAY WITH ANYONE?
A YES. MY MOM.
14 Q OTHER THAN YOUR MOTHER, DID YOU DISCUSS IT WITH
ANYONE ELSE?
15 A MY BOSS.
Q OTHER THAN -- WHO IS YOUR BOSS?
16 A DALE ST. JOHN OF TOWN AND COUNTRY LIMO.
Q WHEN DID YOU DISCUSS IT WITH HIM?
17 A DAYS AFTER.
Q WHEN DID YOU DISCUSS IT WITH YOUR MOTHER?
18 A JUST A FEW DAYS AFTER.
Q HAVE YOU DISCUSSED IT WITH ANYONE ELSE?
19 A THE POLICE.
Q HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU DISCUSS IT WITH THE
20 POLICE?
A I WAS INTERVIEWED ONCE, BUT THERE WAS PHONE CALLS
21 FOR OTHER QUESTIONS HERE AND THERE.
Q DID YOU RECEIVE THE PHONE CALLS FIRST OR THE
22 INTERVIEW FIRST?
A WELL, THEY CALLED ME AND JUST ASKED ME TO COME
23 OUT.
Q SO YOU DIDN'T DISCUSS ANYTHING ON THE PHONE?
24 A NO.
Q DO YOU RECALL WHAT DATE YOU WENT DOWN?
25 A THE 15TH OF --
Q WHERE DID YOU GO?
26 A TO THE HARBOR DISTRICT, THE POLICE DEPARTMENT
THERE IN SAN PEDRO.
27 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE THERE?
A 9:30, 9:00 O'CLOCK.
28 Q TO WHOM DID YOU SPEAK?
0050
1 A TO PAUL TIPPIN AND BRIAN CARR.
Q HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK WITH THEM?
2 A TWO HOURS.
Q WAS THAT INTERVIEW TAPE RECORDED?
3 A NOT THAT I KNOW OF.
Q DID THEY HAVE YOU -- DID THEY TAKE NOTES OF YOUR
4 CONVERSATION?
A YES, THEY DID.
5 Q DID THEY REDUCE THOSE NOTES TO A REPORT THAT YOU
KNOW OF?
6 A NO.
Q DID THEY EVER HAVE YOU SIGN A STATEMENT OR A
7 REPORT?
A NO.
8 Q DID YOU MEET WITH THEM AGAIN THAT DAY?
A NO, I DIDN'T.
9 Q DID YOU MEET WITH ANY OTHER DETECTIVES THAT DAY?
A NO.
10 Q IS THAT THE ONLY TIME YOU HAVE EVER MET WITH
DETECTIVES?
11 A I MET THEM AFTER THAT.
Q WHEN DID YOU MEET AFTER THAT?
12 A THEY WERE AT THE GRAND JURY.
Q DID THEY TAKE YOUR STATEMENT AT THE GRAND JURY?
13 A NO, THEY DIDN'T.
Q SO YOU JUST SAW THEM CASUALLY AT THE GRAND JURY?
14 A YES.
Q SO AS FAR AS FORMAL STATEMENT INTERVIEWS TO ANY
15 LAW-ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WHATSOEVER, YOU HAVE ONLY GIVEN ONE,
AND THAT WAS ON THE 15TH?
16 A YES.
Q FOR TWO HOURS?
17 A ABOUT.
Q WAS IT BEFORE OR AFTER THAT THAT YOU TALKED TO
18 YOUR MOTHER?
A IT WAS BEFORE.
19 Q HOW MUCH BEFORE?
A TUESDAY.
20 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU TALK TO YOUR MOTHER?
A AFTER I -- SHE WAS THERE WHEN I WAS TALKING OVER
21 THE PHONE WITH MR. SIMPSON'S LAWYERS.
Q WHEN DID YOU TALK TO MR. SIMPSON'S LAWYERS?
22 A THE 14TH, I BELIEVE.
Q AND WAS THAT IN THE EVENING?
23 A IT WAS TOWARDS THE EVENING, YES.
Q DID YOU PLACE THE PHONE CALL?
24 A YES. I CALLED THEM.
Q AND DID YOU CALL AN OFFICE KNOWN AS LEROY TAFT'S
25 OFFICE?
A I DON'T KNOW WHAT OFFICE IT WAS. I JUST CALLED
26 THE PHONE NUMBER.
Q DID YOU SPEAK TO TWO PEOPLE WHO IDENTIFIED
27 THEMSELVES AS LAWYERS THERE?
A YES.
28 Q WAS ONE MR. LEROY TAFT OR IDENTIFYING HIMSELF AS
0051
1 LEROY TAFT?
A LEROY TAFT?
2 Q SKIP TAFT?
A THAT RINGS A BELL.
3 Q DID THE OTHER IDENTIFY HIMSELF AS ROBERT SHAPIRO?
A I THINK IT WAS JUST BOB.
4 Q AND WAS THIS ON A SPEAKER PHONE?
A YES, IT WAS.
5 Q AND AT THIS TIME YOUR MOTHER WAS LISTENING?
A SHE WAS SITTING NEXT TO ME, YES.
6 Q AND THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU GAVE ANY STATEMENT
TO ANYONE REGARDING THIS INCIDENT; IS THAT CORRECT?
7 A YES.
Q YES?
8 A YES.
Q AND HOW LONG WAS THAT STATEMENT?
9 A HALF AN HOUR. I DON'T KNOW.
Q HAVE YOU EVER HEARD ANY RECORDING OF THAT
10 STATEMENT?
A HAVE I?
11 Q YES.
A YES, I HAVE.
12 Q WHEN DID YOU HEAR THAT?
A LAST FRIDAY.
13 Q WHERE DID YOU HEAR THAT?
A UPSTAIRS.
14 Q WHO PLAYED IT FOR YOU?
A THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY.
15 Q AND WAS IT AT THAT TIME THAT YOU REALIZED YOU
MADE THE STATEMENT AND COULDN'T TELL WHETHER IT WAS A MALE OR
16 A FEMALE?
A YES. I HEARD THAT.
17 Q AND DID ANYBODY POINT OUT AT THAT POINT IN TIME
THAT WHEN YOU TOLD THE GRAND JURY, YOU SAID IT WAS A MALE?
18 A NO.
Q DID ANYONE ASK YOU IF THERE WERE ANY
19 DISCREPANCIES IN YOUR TESTIMONY OR IN YOUR STATEMENT THAT YOU
GAVE TO MYSELF AND MR. TAFT?
20 A NO.
Q AT THAT TIME DID YOU TELL MR. TAFT AND MYSELF
21 THAT YOU COULDN'T TELL WHETHER OR NOT THAT PERSON COULD HAVE
BEEN O.J. SIMPSON?
22 A REPEAT THAT.
Q DID YOU TELL MR. TAFT OR MYSELF THAT DURING THE
23 CONVERSATION ON THE 14TH THAT THE PERSON THAT WALKED INTO THE
HOUSE IN DARK CLOTHING WAS SOMEBODY; YOU COULDN'T TELL WHETHER
24 OR NOT IT WAS O.J. SIMPSON?
A YES.
25 Q AND DID YOU TELL US THAT EVENING THAT AFTER YOU
BUZZED THE INTERCOM, ABOUT TWO MINUTES LATER, MR. SIMPSON CAME
26 ON?
A I DON'T RECALL.
27 Q AND THAT YOU COULD RECOGNIZE MR. SIMPSON'S VOICE?
A YES, I COULD RECOGNIZE HIS VOICE.
28 Q AND YOU ASKED HIM AT THAT TIME -- YOU TOLD HIM AT
0052
1 THAT TIME THAT YOU WERE THERE, AND HE SAID, "I HAVE BEEN HERE
FOR A FEW MINUTES"?
2 A NO.
Q HE NEVER SAID THAT?
3 A NO.
Q DID YOU EVER SAY THAT, "I HAVE BEEN HERE FOR A
4 FEW MINUTES"?
A I TOLD THE WHITE MALE AT THE HOME.
5 Q IT WAS AT THAT TIME THAT WE ASKED YOU HOW
MR. SIMPSON WAS DRESSED WHEN HE CAME OUT, AND YOU SAID, "HE
6 WAS WEARING BLUE JEANS, A WHITE SHIRT AND ANOTHER KIND OF
OVERCOAT, A BLACK OVERCOAT." DO YOU RECALL THAT?
7 A YES.
Q WAS THAT A HEAVY OVERCOAT?
8 A NO.
Q DID YOU KNOW HE WAS GOING TO CHICAGO?
9 A YES.
Q DID YOU KNOW WHAT THE WEATHER WAS LIKE IN
10 CHICAGO?
A I HAVE NO IDEA.
11 Q HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE WEIGHT OF THE OVERCOAT
WAS?
12 A THE WEIGHT?
Q YES.
13 A IT JUST LOOKED THIN.
Q DID YOU EVER CARRY IT?
14 A NO.
Q DID YOU EVER TRY IT ON?
15 A NO.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHAT MATERIAL IT WAS MADE OF?
16 A I COULDN'T TELL YOU.
Q DO YOU KNOW IF IT HAD A LINING?
17 A NO.
Q DID YOU TELL US THAT WHEN YOU PULLED IN, HE
18 ALREADY HAD A COUPLE OF BAGS ON THE PORCH?
A YES.
19 Q THAT HE WENT OVER TO HIS CAR AND GOT ANOTHER BAG?
A YES.
20 Q DID YOU SEE MR. SIMPSON WALK IN AND OUT OF THE
HOUSE AT ALL?
21 A HE WALKED IN A COUPLE TIMES.
Q HOW MANY TIMES?
22 A TWO OR THREE.
Q OTHER THAN CARRYING HIS BAGS OR LUGGAGE OUT, DID
23 YOU SEE HIM CARRYING ANYTHING ELSE OUT OF THE HOUSE?
A NO.
24 Q NOW, DID YOU PUT MR. SIMPSON'S BAGS IN THE TRUNK?
A SOME.
25 Q HOW MANY DID YOU PUT IN?
A FROM WHAT I CAN REMEMBER, THREE.
26 Q WHAT ABOUT THE GOLF BAG, WHERE DID THE GOLF BAG
END UP?
27 A IN THE TRUNK.
Q WHO PUT IT THERE?
28 A I CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS THE WHITE MALE OR
0053
1 MR. SIMPSON.
Q NOW, WHEN I ASKED YOU ABOUT THE PERSON THAT WAS
2 COMING IN AND OUT OF THE HOUSE, DID YOU SAY THE FOLLOWING: "I
AM GOING TO SAY HE WAS A GOOD SIX-FOOT ONE, 180 POUNDS"? DID
3 YOU SAY THAT?
A I COULD HAVE.
4 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU TELL US YOU LEFT MR. SIMPSON'S
HOUSE FOR THE AIRPORT?
5 A THE TIME I LEFT?
Q YES.
6 A 11:15.
Q IS THAT WHAT YOU TOLD US?
7 A I CAN'T REMEMBER.
Q COULD YOU HAVE TOLD US A DIFFERENT TIME?
8 A COULD HAVE. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN RIGHT AROUND
THERE.
9 Q WOULD IT HAVE BEEN EARLIER OR LATER?
A IT COULD HAVE BEEN EITHER ONE. I DON'T KNOW.
10 Q YOU ARE NOT SURE OF THESE TIMES, ARE YOU?
A I DON'T KNOW WHAT I TOLD YOU. I KNOW WHAT -- I
11 KNOW WHAT TIME I LEFT. IT WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE BEEN RIGHT
AROUND 11:15, TEN AFTER 11:00.
12 Q YOU WOULDN'T LIE TO ME WHEN I TALK TO YOU, WOULD
YOU?
13 A NO.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. OBJECTION. THAT WAS
14 ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
15 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
Q WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE AT THE AIRPORT?
16 A ABOUT 11:35.
Q NOW, BY JUDGING THESE TIMES, WHEN DID THE TIMES
17 BECOME IMPORTANT TO YOU?
A WHEN DID THEY BECOME IMPORTANT? THEY WEREN'T
18 IMPORTANT TO ME THAT NIGHT. BUT I JUST WAS ON KIND OF ON A
SCHEDULE, SO I DO REMEMBER TIMES.
19 Q WHAT WERE YOU USING TO GAUGE THE TIME?
A MY WATCH.
20 Q WHAT KIND OF WATCH DO YOU WEAR?
A A WRISTWATCH.
21 Q WELL, CAN YOU DESCRIBE A LITTLE BETTER THAN THAT?
A IT IS --
22 Q IS IT AN AUTOMATIC WATCH, A WINDUP WATCH?
A IT HAS GOT A BATTERY. IT IS NOT WINDUP. IT HAS
23 GOT HANDS ON IT.
THE COURT: EXCUSE ME.
24 ARE YOU WEARING THE WATCH NOW? YOU WERE LOOKING
AT YOUR WRIST.
25 THE WITNESS: YES.
THE COURT: DO YOU WANT TO JUST HOLD THAT UP MAYBE.
26 THE WITNESS: (INDICATING)
THE COURT: HE IS WEARING ON THE LEFT WRIST A
27 WRISTWATCH OF SOME KIND.
BY MR. SHAPIRO:
28 Q WHEN IS THE LAST TIME YOU CHECKED THAT WATCH WITH
0054
1 SOME OFFICIAL TIME?
A I LOOK AT CLOCKS ALL THE TIME. IT SEEMS TO BE
2 OKAY TO ME.
Q SAME TIME AS IN THE COURTROOM NOW?
3 A YES.
Q WHAT TIME DOES YOUR CLOCK SHOW NOW?
4 A IT SAYS ABOUT SIXTEEN AFTER 10:00.
Q DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN THE LAST TIME YOU SET THAT
5 WATCH WAS?
A LAST TIME I SET IT?
6 Q YES.
A I JUST SET IT ON THE 1ST.
7 Q BECAUSE YOU CHANGED THE DATES, RIGHT?
A YES.
8 Q AND YOU DON'T RECALL WHEN YOU SET IT PRIOR TO
THAT, DO YOU?
9 A NO.
Q YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR TOWN
10 AND COUNTRY LIMOUSINE FOR THE LAST TWO AND A HALF MONTHS?
A TWO AND A HALF, THREE MONTHS, YES.
11 Q DID YOU TELL US YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING THERE FOR
FIVE MONTHS?
12 A NOT THAT I REMEMBER. I MIGHT HAVE SAID I HAVE
BEEN DRIVING LIMOS FOR FIVE MONTHS.
13 Q AND IS THAT THE CASE?
A YES.
14 Q DO YOU WORK FOR ANY OTHER LIMOUSINE COMPANY?
A I DIDN'T WORK FOR A COMPANY; I JUST WORK FOR A
15 PRIVATE OWNER.
Q HOW LONG HAVE YOU WORKED FOR THAT PERSON?
16 A IT WAS ABOUT TWO MONTHS, TWO AND A HALF MONTHS.
Q AND THEN YOU GOT THE JOB WITH TOWN AND COUNTRY?
17 A YES.
Q IS THAT A FULL TIME -- WAS THAT A FULL-TIME JOB
18 AT THE TIME?
A NO. NO.
19 Q AND DID YOU HAVE ANY SCHEDULED HOURS THAT YOU
WORKED?
20 A NO.
Q WHEN DID YOU FIRST RECEIVE NOTIFICATION THAT YOU
21 WERE GOING TO HAVE A PICK UP AT O.J. SIMPSON'S HOUSE?
A IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN SOMETIME IN THE
22 MORNING, 10:00, 11:00, 11:00.
Q WHERE DID YOU RECEIVE THAT NOTIFICATION?
23 A FROM MY BOSS. HE LIVES ACROSS THE STREET.
Q DID HE JUST WALK OVER, OR DID HE CALL YOU?
24 A I CAN'T REMEMBER IF HE CAME OVER OR CALLED.
Q AND WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
25 A HE TOLD ME I HAD A PICK UP AT 7:00 O'CLOCK
EARLIER IN THE NIGHT AT LAX, PICKING UP A COUPLE CLIENTS AND
26 TAKING THEM TO BEVERLY HILLS. AND THEN HE TOLD ME I HAD A
PICK UP AT 10:45 AT MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE.
27 Q WHERE DID YOU START FOR YOUR 7:00 O'CLOCK PICK UP
AT LAX?
28 A WHERE DID I START?
0055
1 Q WHERE DID YOU LEAVE FROM?
A FROM HIS HOUSE IN TORRANCE.
2 Q SO HE HAS HIS CARS AT HIS HOUSE?
A YES.
3 Q AND WHAT TYPE OF VEHICLE WERE YOU DRIVING?
A A LINCOLN TOWN CAR.
4 Q WHAT IS THE SIZE OF THAT CAR?
A IT IS A STRETCH. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE LENGTH OF
5 IT IS.
Q DO YOU KNOW IF STRETCHES COME IN DIFFERENT
6 LENGTHS?
A YES, THEY DO.
7 Q YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE LENGTH THIS CAR WAS?
A NO.
8 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE FOR THE AIRPORT FOR THAT
PICK UP?
9 A TO THE AIRPORT?
Q YES.
10 A 6:00 -- WE GOT A PHONE CALL WHICH WE FOUND OUT
THE PLANE WAS COMING IN EARLY. THE PICK UP WAS AT
11 7:00 O'CLOCK, AND WE FOUND OUT THEY WERE COMING IN AT 6:30.
SO I LEFT ABOUT 6:00 O'CLOCK.
12 Q WHAT AIRLINES DID YOU GO TO, FOR THE PICK UP?
A IT WAS BRITISH AIRWAYS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
13 Q OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT? YOU ARE NOT SURE?
A I AM NOT POSITIVE.
14 Q WHAT WAS THE FLIGHT NUMBER?
A I DON'T REMEMBER THIS STUFF.
15 Q WHAT WAS THE NAME OF THE PARTIES YOU WERE PICKING
UP?
16 A IT WAS BILL TAYLOR AND ANOTHER PERSON.
Q WHAT WAS THE OTHER PERSON'S NAME?
17 A KEITH SOMETHING.
Q YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE LAST NAME OF KEITH?
18 A NO. HE WASN'T IMPORTANT. HE WAS JUST WITH
BILL TAYLOR.
19 Q WHAT TIME -- DID YOU PICK UP THEIR LUGGAGE AT THE
AIRPORT?
20 A NO, THEY JUST CARRIED IT UP. IT WAS A SHORT --
Q THEY HAD CARRY ON?
21 A YES.
Q HOW MANY BAGS DID EACH OF THEM HAVE?
22 A BILL TAYLOR HAD TWO, AND THE OTHER GUY HAD ONE.
Q WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THOSE BAGS PLEASE?
23 A I DON'T KNOW. I WASN'T LOOKING AT THEM. I NEVER
HANDLED THEM.
24 Q WHERE DID YOU FIRST SEE THEM?
A THE BAGS OR HIM? THE PEOPLE?
25 Q BOTH.
A GETTING OFF THE FLIGHT.
26 Q WERE YOU AT THE --
A I WAS AT THE GATE.
27 Q AT THE GATE. DID YOU HAVE A SIGN UP FOR THEIR
NAMES?
28 A YES, I DID.
0056
1 Q AND THE PEOPLE CAME UP TO YOU?
A YES.
2 Q SO YOU SAW THEM CARRYING BAGS?
A YES.
3 Q WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE BAGS THEY WERE CARRYING?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
4 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
BY MR. SHAPIRO:
5 Q THEY CARRIED THEIR OWN BAGS TO YOUR LIMOUSINE?
A I WASN'T DRIVING THE LIMOUSINE AT THAT TIME.
6 Q WHO WAS DRIVING THE LIMOUSINE?
A I WAS IN A -- I HAD TO MAKE A SWITCH. I WAS IN A
7 TOWN CAR, JUST A REGULAR TOWN CAR.
Q WHAT KIND OF CAR WERE YOU DRIVING?
8 A LINCOLN TOWN CAR.
Q WHAT COLOR?
9 A WHITE.
Q AND WHERE DID YOU PUT THE BAGS THAT THESE TWO
10 GENTLEMEN HAD?
A I POPPED THE TRUNK, AND THEY PUT THEM IN THERE.
11 Q THEY PUT THEM IN?
A YES.
12 Q WHERE DID YOU TAKE THEM?
A TO THE PENISULA HOTEL.
13 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE AT THE PENISULA?
A THE PLANE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN AT 6:30. IT
14 DIDN'T ARRIVE UNTIL ABOUT 6:45. I DROPPED THEM OFF ABOUT
7:30.
15 Q ARE YOU SURE OF THAT TIME?
A AROUND THERE.
16 Q ARE YOU AS SURE OF THOSE TIMES AS YOU ARE OF THE
TIMES THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN US FOR MR. SIMPSON?
17 A IF NOT, I KNOW THESE TIMES A LITTLE BIT BETTER.
Q WHY DO YOU KNOW THESE TIMES BETTER?
18 A BECAUSE JUST THE WAY THAT EVERYTHING HAPPENED, AS
I CALLED MY BOSS, WHAT TIME THE PICK UP WAS, WHAT TIME HE HAD
19 TO BE AT THE AIRPORT, WHAT TIME WE LEFT, WHAT TIME WE ARRIVED.
IT WAS JUST MORE CLEAR TO ME WITH THE PHONE CALLS.
20 Q WELL, YOU HAD PHONE CALLS WITH THIS FLIGHT. YOU
HAD NOTIFICATION THE FLIGHT WAS LATE?
21 A AT HOME -- WE WERE STILL AT HOME. I WAS TALKING
TO HIM PERSONALLY.
22 Q I SEE.
AFTER YOU DROPPED OFF THESE TWO GENTLEMEN AT THE
23 PENISULA HOTEL, WHERE DID YOU GO?
A I CAME BACK.
24 Q YOU CAME BACK WHERE?
A I CAME BACK HOME.
25 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU GET HOME?
A 8:00 O'CLOCK OR SO.
26 Q 8:00 O'CLOCK OR SO? DID YOU JUDGE THE TIME BY
ANYTHING?
27 A JUST FROM WHEN I LEFT THE PENISULA TO THE
STANDARD TIME IT WOULD TAKE ME TO GET HOME.
28 Q WHERE DO YOU LIVE? I DON'T NEED YOUR EXACT
0057
1 ADDRESS, BUT GIVE ME CROSS STREETS, IF YOU MIGHT.
A TORRANCE.
2 182ND AND PRAIRIE.
Q AND WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU GOT HOME AT
3 8:00 O'CLOCK?
A WELL, I HAD A SNACK AND CHANGED CARS AND GOT
4 READY TO GO.
Q WHERE DID YOU CHANGE CARS?
5 A AT HIS HOUSE.
Q SO YOU WENT BACK TO YOUR BOSS' HOUSE ACROSS THE
6 STREET?
A YES.
7 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU GO THERE?
A IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN 9:00 O'CLOCK OR SO. JUST TO
8 TALK TO HIM AND MAKE SURE THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS STILL GOING.
Q WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
9 A HE SAID, YES, SO FAR AS HE KNOWS THAT THE FLIGHT
IS STILL ON, HIS PICK UP.
10 Q HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU SPEND WITH YOUR BOSS AT HIS
HOUSE AT 9:00 O'CLOCK?
11 A WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER. JUST LIKE A FEW MINUTES.
Q AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?
12 A WENT BACK HOME.
Q HOW LONG DID YOU STAY AT HOME?
13 A UNTIL ABOUT 9:45.
Q WHAT DID YOU DO AT THAT TIME?
14 A LEFT.
Q HOW WERE YOU DRESSED WHEN YOU LEFT?
15 A JUST LIKE THIS BUT WITH A COAT.
Q SAME EXACT CLOTHES?
16 A YES.
Q PARDON?
17 A YES.
Q SAME TIE, SAME SHIRT, SAME PANTS?
18 A YES.
Q SAME SHOES, SAME SOCKS?
19 A YES.
Q AND 9:45 YOU LEAVE YOUR HOUSE NOW TO GO TO
20 ROCKINGHAM?
A YES.
21 Q WERE YOU GIVEN DIRECTIONS TO ROCKINGHAM BY
ANYBODY?
22 A BY MY BOSS, YES.
Q WHAT WERE THE DIRECTIONS HE GAVE YOU?
23 A TO GO UP THE 405 UNTIL SUNSET AND MAKE A LEFT ON
SUNSET GOING WEST. MAKE A RIGHT ON ROCKINGHAM.
24 Q AND THEN JUST GO TO THE ADDRESS?
A YES.
25 Q DID HE GIVE YOU ANY OTHER SPECIFIC INFORMATION AS
TO WHAT TO HAVE OR WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU WERE PICKING UP
26 MR. SIMPSON?
A NOT THAT I RECALL, NO.
27 Q ARE THERE SOME PEOPLE THAT LIKE BEVERAGES IN THE
CAR, NEWSPAPERS, THINGS LIKE THAT, IN THE LIMOUSINE?
28 A FOR SOME PEOPLE, BUT HE DIDN'T GIVE ME ANY
0058
1 SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS.
Q IT WAS JUST, "PICK HIM UP AND TAKE HIM TO THE
2 AIRPORT"?
A YES.
3 Q DID HE TELL YOU WHAT FLIGHT HE WAS GOING ON?
A AMERICAN AIRLINES. THAT WAS JUST WHERE TO DROP
4 HIM OFF.
Q AND HE GAVE YOU THAT INFORMATION EARLIER IN THE
5 MORNING, DIDN'T HE?
A YES.
6 Q AND DID HE TELL YOU WHAT TIME THE FLIGHT WAS
LEAVING?
7 A HE JUST SAID HE HAD TO BE AT THE AIRPORT AT THE
11:45 FLIGHT.
8 Q HE GAVE YOU THE FLIGHT, THE FLIGHT NUMBER AND THE
INFORMATION THAT MORNING?
9 A I AM NOT SURE IF HE GAVE ME THE FLIGHT NUMBER.
HE JUST SAID AMERICAN AIRLINES IS WHERE HE USUALLY FLIES OUT
10 OF.
Q DID YOU -- YOU DIDN'T CLOCK OUT WITH YOUR BOSS
11 WHEN YOU LEFT YOUR HOUSE TO GO PICK UP MR. SIMPSON, DID YOU?
A NO.
12 Q AND YOU DON'T KEEP ANY TIME RECORDS WHERE YOU
RECORD THE TIMES ON A TIME SHEET OR ANYTHING?
13 A NO.
Q SO YOU ARE APPROXIMATING THIS, ARE YOU NOT?
14 A YES.
Q AND MOST OF THE TIMES THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT,
15 YOU ARE APPROXIMATING?
A YES.
16 MS. CLARK: WELL, OBJECTION -- WITHDRAWN.
MR. SHAPIRO: MAY I JUST HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
17 THE COURT: YES.
MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU.
18 THE COURT: MR. SHAPIRO, LET ME JUST ASK YOU, DO YOU
HAVE SUBSTANTIALLY MORE CROSS-EXAMINATION FOR THE WITNESS?
19 MR. SHAPIRO: WELL, THAT'S WHAT I AM REVIEWING RIGHT
NOW, YOUR HONOR.
20 THE COURT: IT MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE FOR US TO TAKE OUR
MORNING RECESS AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
21 MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: FIFTEEN MINUTES.
22 MR. PARK, I AM GOING TO ASK YOU, PLEASE DO NOT
DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANYONE EXCEPT THE LAWYERS INVOLVED
23 IN THIS MATTER.
MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, MAY I ASK YOU AT THIS POINT
24 IN TIME, SINCE WE ARE STILL ON DIRECT EXAMINATION, THAT HE NOT
DISCUSS THIS CASE WITH ANY LAWYERS.
25 MS. CLARK: I THINK WE ARE ON CROSS.
MR. SHAPIRO: WE ARE ON CROSS-EXAMINATION; THAT HE NOT
26 DISCUSS THIS CASE WITH ANY LAWYERS.
THE COURT: WELL, I THINK THAT HE HAS THE RIGHT TO
27 SPEAK TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY IF HE WISHES. OBVIOUSLY, YOU
CAN QUESTION HIM CONCERNING THAT IF HE DOES, IN FACT, SPEAK TO
28 THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY.
0059
1 MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, THEN I ASK YOU NOT TO TAKE A
RECESS AT THIS TIME.
2 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. SHAPIRO: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
3 THANK YOU.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
4 WELL, YOU DO GET TO STEP DOWN AT THIS POINT.
MY ADMONITION STILL APPLIES. DO NOT DISCUSS YOUR
5 TESTIMONY AGAIN.
MS. CLARK: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. I HAVE REDIRECT.
6 THE COURT: OH, I AM SORRY.
MS. CLARK: MAY I?
7 THE COURT: WILL IT BE LENGTHY?
MS. CLARK: NO.
8 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. PARK, AGAIN, IF I CAN HAVE YOU JUST TAKE A
9 SEAT FOR A MOMENT.
MS. CLARK: MAY THE RECORD REFLECT MR. PARK LOOKED AT
10 ME IN A VERY UNFRIENDLY WAY.
I WILL BE BRIEF, MR. PARK.
11
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
12 BY MS. CLARK:
Q ARE YOU VAGUE ABOUT THE TIME THAT YOU ARRIVED AT
13 THE 360 ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS, SIR?
A NO.
14 Q YOU KNOW THAT PRECISELY YOU ARRIVED AT 10:25?
MR. SHAPIRO: I AM GOING TO OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE
15 QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ON WHAT BASIS?
16 MR. SHAPIRO: THAT IT IS LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
17 MS. CLARK: THE WITNESS HAS ALREADY TESTIFIED TO THAT.
HOW COULD I BE LEADING, YOUR HONOR?
18 MR. SHAPIRO: WELL, THEN IT IS ASKED AND ANSWERED.
MS. CLARK: IT IS FOUNDATIONAL.
19 MR. SHAPIRO: THERE IS NO REASON FOR FOUNDATION IF IT
IS ALREADY ON THE RECORD.
20 THE COURT: YOUR QUESTION WAS LEADING.
///
21 BY MS. CLARK:
Q MR. PARK, ARE YOU VAGUE ABOUT THE TIME THAT YOU
22 ARRIVED AT THE 360 ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE
12TH?
23 A I AM CERTAIN.
Q AND WHY ARE YOU CERTAIN?
24 A BECAUSE WHEN I ARRIVED AND PARKED, I LOOKED AT MY
WATCH.
25 Q AND THAT TIME WAS?
A 10:25.
26 Q IS THERE A CLOCK IN THE CAR?
A YES, THERE IS.
27 Q AND DID THAT CLOCK MATCH UP TO THE TIME ON YOUR
WATCH?
28 A IT MIGHT BE A COUPLE MINUTES OFF.
0060
1 Q APPROXIMATELY THE CORRECT TIME THOUGH?
A YES.
2 Q ARE YOU VAGUE ABOUT WHEN YOU CALLED YOUR BOSS?
A YES.
3 Q ARE YOU VAGUE ABOUT WHEN YOU PULLED DOWN TO THE
ROCKINGHAM GATE?
4 A YES.
Q WHAT TIMES ARE YOU CERTAIN OF?
5 A I AM CERTAIN ABOUT -- I LOOKED AT MY WATCH QUITE
A BIT, WAITING TO PICK UP. I AM CERTAIN ABOUT THE TIME I
6 ARRIVED; I AM CERTAIN ABOUT THE TIME I CAME UP TO THE ASHFORD
GATE AND STARTED RINGING. I AM CERTAIN ABOUT THE TIME OF THE
7 CALL FROM MY BOSS.
Q OKAY.
8 SO YOU ARE CERTAIN OF THE TIME THAT YOU ARRIVED
AT THE LOCATION, 360 ROCKINGHAM?
9 A YES.
Q AND YOU ARE CERTAIN ABOUT THE TIME THAT YOU BEGAN
10 TO RING THE BELL AT THE ASHFORD GATE?
MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I BELIEVE I'M GOING TO OBJECT
11 TO THIS. THIS IS GOING OVER THE SAME EXACT TESTIMONY THAT'S
ALREADY BEEN ELICITED.
12 MS. CLARK: NO, THAT'S NOT --
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
13 BY MS. CLARK:
Q WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU BEGAN TO RING THE BELL
14 THAT YOU ARE CERTAIN OF?
A 10:40.
15 Q AND WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU -- EXCUSE ME,
STRIKE THAT.
16 YOU SAID YOU WERE CERTAIN OF THE TIME THAT YOUR
BOSS CALLED YOU BACK?
17 A YES.
Q AND WHY IS THAT?
18 A BECAUSE AS HE CALLED, I LOOK AT MY WATCH TO LOOK
AT THE TIME -- HE TOLD ME TO WAIT UNTIL 11:15. SO I LOOKED AT
19 WHAT TIME IT WAS THEN TO MAKE SURE IT WASN'T 11:15.
Q SO YOU LOOKED SPECIFICALLY AT YOUR WATCH WHEN HE
20 TOLD YOU TO WAIT UNTIL 11:15?
A YES.
21 Q AND THE TIME WAS THEN?
A 10:55.
22 Q AND HOW LONG AFTER THAT POINT THAT YOU LOOKED AT
YOUR WATCH AND SAW IT WAS 10:55 THAT YOU SAW THE AFRICAN
23 AMERICAN PERSON WHO WAS SIX FOOT, ABOUT 200 POUNDS, GOING INTO
THE HOUSE?
24 A IT WAS A COUPLE MINUTES. I WAS ON THE PHONE A
COUPLE MINUTES.
25 Q AND YOU ARE CERTAIN OF THAT TIME?
A YES.
26 Q NOW YOU SPOKE TO MR. SHAPIRO BEFORE YOU EVER
SPOKE TO THE POLICE OR MYSELF IN THIS CASE; IS THAT CORRECT?
27 A YES.
Q YOU HAD THE INTERVIEW WITH HIM ON JUNE THE 14TH?
28 A FROM WHAT I REMEMBER, YES.
0061
1 Q AND THAT WAS THE INTERVIEW HE REFERRED TO AS
BEING ON THE SPEAKER PHONE WITH HIM?
2 A YES.
Q DID YOU KNOW YOU WERE BEING TAPED BY HIM AT THE
3 TIME, SIR?
A NO, I WAS NEVER TOLD I WAS BEING TAPED OR NEVER
4 ASKED TO BE TAPED.
Q MR. SHAPIRO NEVER TOLD YOU THAT HE WAS TAPING
5 YOUR CONVERSATION?
A NO, NEVER.
6 Q AND HE NEVER ASKED YOUR PERMISSION TO TAPE YOUR
CONVERSATION?
7 A NO, NEVER.
Q AND MR. SHAPIRO QUESTIONED YOU ABOUT THE TIMES
8 DURING THAT CONVERSATION HE HAD WITH YOU ON JUNE THE 14TH,
WHAT TIME YOU ARRIVED, WHAT TIME YOU LEFT?
9 A FROM WHAT I REMEMBER, YES.
Q WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. SHAPIRO ON JUNE THE 14TH,
10 1994, YOU GAVE HIM THE SAME TIMES THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN US IN
COURT TODAY; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
11 A YES.
MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
12 THE COURT: MR. SHAPIRO, DO YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER
QUESTIONS?
13 MR. SHAPIRO: NO, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU.
THE COURT: I THINK AT THIS TIME YOU CAN SAFELY STEP
14 DOWN.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
15 THE COURT: I REMIND YOU NOT TO DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY.
WE WILL TAKE THAT RECESS THAT I MENTIONED FOR
16 FIFTEEN MINUTES.
(RECESS)
17 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
WE ARE ONCE AGAIN ON THE RECORD IN THE CASE OF
18 PEOPLE VERSUS SIMPSON.
THE DEFENDANT IS PRESENT WITH COUNSEL.
19 THE PEOPLE ARE REPRESENTED.
MISS CLARK?
20 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
PEOPLE CALL MR. BRIAN KAELIN.
21 OH, I AM SORRY, YOUR HONOR. ONE MINUTE.
THE COURT: FACE THE CLERK, SIR, AND RAISE YOUR RIGHT
22 HAND.
THE COURT CLERK: YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY
23 YOU ARE ABOUT TO GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS
COURT SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE
24 TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS: I DO.
25 THE COURT CLERK: PLEASE BE SEATED.
STATE AND SPELL YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD.
26 THE WITNESS: BRIAN, B-R-I-A-N. KATO. K-A-T-O.
KAELIN. K-A-E-L-I-N.
27
BRIAN KATO KAELIN,
28 CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE,
0062
1 WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
2 DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CLARK:
3 Q GOOD MORNING, MR. KAELIN.
A GOOD MORNING.
4 Q WERE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH SOMEONE BY THE NAME OF
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?
5 A YES.
Q WHEN DID YOU MEET HER?
6 A DECEMBER OF '92.
Q AND WHERE WAS THAT?
7 A ASPEN, COLORADO.
Q YOU WERE FRIENDS?
8 A YES.
Q WAS THERE A ROMANTIC INVOLVEMENT BETWEEN YOU?
9 A NO.
Q DO YOU RECALL SEEING HER AGAIN IN JANUARY OF
10 1993?
A YES.
11 Q AND ON -- WHAT WAS THAT OCCASION?
A THERE WAS A PARTY.
12 Q WHERE?
A IN HER HOUSE.
13 Q WHICH WAS WHERE?
A 325 GRETNA GREEN.
14 Q IN BRENTWOOD?
A IN BRENTWOOD.
15 Q NOW THAT PARTICULAR HOUSE, DID IT HAVE A GUEST
HOUSE BEHIND IT?
16 A YES, IT DID.
Q DID YOU SEE THAT GUEST HOUSE WHEN YOU WERE AT THE
17 PARTY?
A YES, I DID.
18 Q DID YOU LIKE THAT GUEST HOUSE?
A YES, I DID.
19 Q WAS ANYONE LIVING IN IT AT THE TIME?
A JUST FURNITURE; THAT WAS IT.
20 Q JUST FURNITURE?
A RIGHT. NO PERSON.
21 Q DID THAT GIVE YOU SOME IDEAS?
A YES, IT DID.
22 Q WHAT IDEA WAS THAT?
A TO MOVE IN.
23 Q AND WHO DID YOU TALK TO ABOUT THAT?
A TO NICOLE.
24 Q DID YOU ASK TO MOVE INTO THE GUEST HOUSE?
A YES, I DID.
25 Q WHAT WAS YOUR ARRANGEMENT?
A TO CLEAN OUT THE GUEST HOUSE AND TO MOVE IN.
26 Q SO SHE AGREED TO LET YOU DO THAT?
A YES, SHE DID.
27 Q FOR RENT?
A YES.
28 Q AND WHAT RENT WERE YOU PAYING?
0063
1 A IT WAS 450-TO $500. I SOMETIMES TOOK CARE OF THE
KIDS AND SHE WOULD DEDUCT STUFF. SHE WAS VERY NICE ABOUT
2 EVERYTHING.
Q SO SHE WOULD GIVE MONEY OFF YOUR RENT IN RETURN
3 FOR YOUR TAKING CARE OF THE CHILDREN?
A YEAH, YES.
4 Q NOW, SHE LIVED IN THE MAIN HOUSE ON GRETNA GREEN?
A YES, SHE DID.
5 Q DID ANYBODY LIVE THERE WITH HER?
A SIDNEY AND JUSTIN, HER CHILDREN.
6 Q SIDNEY WAS HOW OLD THEN?
A SIDNEY WAS SEVEN.
7 Q AND JUSTIN?
A IS, I THINK, FOUR AND A HALF, FOUR AND THREE
8 QUARTERS, AROUND THERE.
Q YOU HAVE INDICATED A PERSON YOU KNEW AS
9 NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON. I AM SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS
PEOPLE'S 3, AND I ASK IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE PERSON SHOWN THERE.
10 A YES.
Q AND WHO IS THAT?
11 A NICOLE.
Q THE PERSON YOU HAVE BEEN REFERRING TO TODAY?
12 A YES.
Q DURING THAT TIME THAT YOU WERE LIVING ON GRETNA
13 GREEN IN THAT GUEST HOUSE BEHIND THE HOUSE, DID YOU MEET THE
DEFENDANT?
14 A YES.
Q AND WHEN I SAY, "THE DEFENDANT," DO YOU SEE
15 SOMEONE IN COURT TODAY THAT I AM REFERRING TO? DO YOU SEE
THAT PERSON IN COURT?
16 A YES.
Q AND WHAT IS HE WEARING?
17 A A SUIT COAT AND TIE.
Q COLOR OF THE SUIT?
18 A BLUE, I THINK. DARK BLUE.
THE COURT: INDICATING THE DEFENDANT.
19 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q NOW THE HOUSE ON GRETNA GREEN, THE GUEST HOUSE,
20 WAS THAT SEPARATED FROM THE MAIN HOUSE?
A YES.
21 Q AND FOR HOW LONG DID YOU LIVE THERE?
A I LIVED THERE UNTIL JANUARY OF '94.
22 Q WHAT HAPPENED IN JANUARY OF '94?
A I MOVED.
23 Q WHY DID YOU MOVE?
A BECAUSE THERE WAS ANOTHER PLACE TO MOVE TO.
24 Q WHAT ABOUT NICOLE, DID SHE MOVE?
A YES, SHE DID.
25 Q WHERE DID SHE MOVE TO?
A SHE MOVED TO BUNDY IN BRENTWOOD.
26 Q YOU DID NOT MOVE WITH HER?
A I DID NOT MOVE WITH HER.
27 Q HAD YOU PLANNED TO MOVE WITH HER INITIALLY?
A YES.
28 Q THE BUNDY RESIDENCE, DID YOU SEE IT?
0064
1 A YES.
Q DID IT HAVE A SEPARATE GUEST HOUSE?
2 A NO, IT DID NOT.
Q WHERE WERE YOU GOING TO STAY?
3 A IT DIDN'T HAVE A SEPARATE GUEST HOUSE; IT HAD A
SEPARATE ROOM -- I MEAN, IT WAS PART OF THE HOUSE, BUT IT WAS
4 DOWN SOME STAIRS.
Q SO YOU WERE GOING TO RENT A ROOM IN THAT HOUSE?
5 A YES.
Q BUT YOU DIDN'T?
6 A NO.
Q WHY NOT?
7 A BECAUSE I HAD A CHANCE TO MOVE INTO ANOTHER
PLACE.
8 Q HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?
A O.J. ASKED ME TO MOVE INTO HIS PLACE.
9 Q WHEN YOU SAY, "O.J.," YOU MEAN THE DEFENDANT?
A YES.
10 Q HE ASKED YOU TO MOVE INTO HIS PLACE?
A THAT HE HAD A ROOM THAT I COULD HAVE GOTTEN FROM
11 HIM.
Q DID HE TELL YOU WHY HE WANTED YOU TO MOVE INTO
12 HIS PLACE INSTEAD OF MOVING WITH NICOLE TO THE BUNDY ADDRESS?
A IT WAS PROBABLY BETTER THAT I WOULD BE AT THE
13 HOUSE. I --
Q WHY DID HE TELL YOU IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR YOU TO
14 BE AT HIS HOUSE?
A I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, IT WAS -- I WAS INSIDE THE
15 HOUSE, AND IT WAS PROBABLY NOT RIGHT FOR ME TO BE INSIDE THE
HOUSE INSTEAD OF A GUEST HOUSE. AND THAT WAY, I WOULDN'T BE
16 INSIDE THE SAME HOUSE.
Q WITH NICOLE?
17 A WITH NICOLE.
Q IS THAT WHAT HE TOLD YOU?
18 A I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT WORDS. IT WAS --
Q WHAT DID HE TELL YOU, MR. KAELIN?
19 A THAT HE HAD A PLACE AT HIS HOUSE, AND I COULD
STAY THERE.
20 Q AND WHY DID HE TELL YOU HE WANTED YOU TO DO THAT?
A THAT IT WOULDN'T BE PROBABLY RIGHT THAT -- FOR ME
21 TO BE IN THE HOUSE. THEY WERE TRYING TO WORK THINGS OUT. AND
I AGREED, AND SO I SAID OKAY.
22 Q SO HE TOLD YOU THAT HE AND NICOLE WERE TRYING TO
WORK THINGS OUT AND IT WOULD BE BETTER IF YOU STAYED AT HIS
23 PLACE?
A YES. HE OFFERED HIS PLACE, AND I SAID OKAY.
24 Q AND HOW MUCH RENT DID YOU PAY THE DEFENDANT TO
STAY AT HIS PLACE?
25 A NOTHING. IT WAS -- O.J. GAVE IT TO ME.
Q THE DEFENDANT GAVE IT TO YOU FOR FREE?
26 A YES.
Q WHEN DID YOU MOVE IN?
27 A JANUARY OF '94.
Q DO YOU SEE A DIAGRAM THERE TO YOUR LEFT?
28 A YES.
0065
1 Q THIS DIAGRAM THAT WAS PREVIOUSLY MARKED PEOPLE'S
7 FOR IDENTIFICATION, DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S SHOWN IN IT?
2 A YES.
Q WHAT IS IT?
3 A IT IS THE HOUSE, HOW IT WOULD LOOK.
Q WHAT HOUSE?
4 A ON ROCKINGHAM, O.J.'S.
Q THE ONE AT 360 ROCKINGHAM?
5 A YES.
Q NOW, CAN YOU SEE YOUR GUEST HOUSE ON THIS
6 DIAGRAM?
A NO.
7 Q IT IS NOT SHOWN HERE, IS IT?
A NO, IT IS NOT.
8 Q IF THE DIAGRAM WERE TO EXTEND FARTHER BACK WHERE
I AM STANDING, WHICH IS THE OPPOSITE END OF THE AREA MARKED
9 ROCKINGHAM ON THIS DIAGRAM, WOULD THE GUEST HOUSE BE BACK
HERE?
10 A YES, IT WOULD.
Q BEHIND THE MAIN HOUSE?
11 A YES.
Q WHAT ELSE IS BACK THERE WHERE YOUR GUEST HOUSE
12 IS?
A THERE IS A POOL, JACUZZI, TENNIS COURTS,
13 BASKETBALL COURTS, TOGETHER.
Q IS THERE A POOL HOUSE AS WELL?
14 A YES, THERE IS.
Q DOES THE POOL HOUSE HAVE A BEDROOM IN IT?
15 A A BEDROOM? NO.
Q AND HOW MANY GUEST HOUSE UNITS ARE THERE?
16 A THREE.
Q ARE THEY ALL TOGETHER OR SEPARATED?
17 A SEPARATED.
Q DO THEY HAVE COMMON WALLS? DO YOU KNOW WHAT I
18 MEAN?
A NO. YOU MEAN COMMON -- CAN I HEAR SOMEONE
19 POUNDING?
Q NO, NO, NO. THE GUEST HOUSES THAT ARE BEHIND THE
20 MAIN HOUSE AT 360 ROCKINGHAM, ARE THEY ALL CONNECTED TOGETHER?
A YES, THEY ARE.
21 Q SO THAT EACH OF THEM HAS A COMMON WALL?
A YES.
22 Q NOW THE AREA THAT IS SHOWN TO THE SOUTH OF THE
GARAGE -- I AM GOING TO POINT IT OUT FOR YOU WITH MY PEN, THIS
23 AREA RIGHT DOWN HERE, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IS IN THAT AREA?
A BACK THERE WOULD BE AIR CONDITIONING UNITS. IT
24 IS LIKE THE BACK OF THE HOUSE. IT IS A LITTLE ALLEYWAY,
SHRUBS, A LITTLE GATE THAT --
25 Q IS THERE A CONCRETE WALKWAY THERE?
A YES.
26 Q AND IS IT OVERHUNG WITH SOME TREES COMING FROM
THE OTHER PROPERTY?
27 A YES.
Q IS THERE A FENCE?
28 A YES, I BELIEVE THERE IS, FROM THE OTHER -- YES,
0066
1 IT SEPARATES.
Q SO IS THAT THE AREA THAT IS THE END OF THE
2 PROPERTY OF 360 ROCKINGHAM? IN OTHER WORDS, IS THAT THE
BOUNDARY BETWEEN THE 360 ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS AND THE NEIGHBOR'S
3 HOUSE?
A YES.
4 Q DOES THE BACK OF YOUR GUEST HOUSE, THE WALL THAT
IS THE BACK OF YOUR GUEST HOUSE, FACE ONTO THAT LITTLE
5 WALKWAY?
A YES, IT DOES.
6 Q AND THE BACK OF YOUR AIR CONDITIONING UNIT ALSO
HANGS OUT OVER THAT WALKWAY?
7 A YES.
Q IS YOUR AIR CONDITIONING UNIT INSTALLED IN A
8 WINDOW OR A HOLE IN THE WALL?
A IT IS A HOLE IN THE WALL.
9 Q DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO JUNE THE 12TH, 1994,
SUNDAY NIGHT -- OR EXCUSE ME, SUNDAY DAY, WHO WAS AT HOME IN
10 THE HOUSE THAT DAY? WHO DID YOU SEE IN THE HOUSE AT 360
ROCKINGHAM?
11 A O.J.
Q THE DEFENDANT?
12 A YES.
Q ANYONE ELSE?
13 A I DIDN'T SEE ANYONE ELSE IN THE HOUSE, NO.
Q WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT FOR
14 THE FIRST TIME AT THE HOUSE ON 360 ROCKINGHAM?
A I THINK IT WAS ABOUT 2:30 IN THE AFTERNOON.
15 Q DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
A YES.
16 Q AND WHAT WAS THAT CONVERSATION ABOUT?
A I ASKED ABOUT HIS GOLF GAME. BECAUSE I KNEW HE
17 WENT GOLFING.
Q HE TOLD YOU HE WENT GOLFING?
18 A UH-HUH.
Q IS THAT YES?
19 A YES, HE WENT GOLFING. I ASKED HOW HE DID. HE
SAID HE DID GREAT. AND THEN HE PLAYED CARDS.
20 Q DID HE SAY WHERE HE PLAYED CARDS?
A NO.
21 Q DID HE MENTION WHAT ELSE HE WAS GOING TO DO THAT
DAY?
22 A THERE WAS A DANCE RECITAL THAT HE WAS GOING TO GO
TO.
23 Q FOR WHO?
A FOR SIDNEY, HIS DAUGHTER.
24 Q WHAT TIME WAS THAT RECITAL FOR HIS DAUGHTER,
SIDNEY, SUPPOSED TO BEGIN?
25 A 5:00 O'CLOCK.
Q NOTICE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THE DEFENDANT'S
26 BEHAVIOR AT THAT TIME?
A NO.
27 Q DID HE MENTION ANYTHING TO YOU ABOUT NICOLE?
A AT 2:30, AROUND THAT TIME?
28 Q YES.
0067
1 A NO.
Q DO YOU RECALL HIM MENTIONING AT SOME POINT DURING
2 THAT DAY THAT HE WAS THROUGH WITH NICOLE?
A OH, THAT IT WAS OVER, THE RELATIONSHIP WAS OVER?
3 Q YES.
A YES, IT WAS --
4 Q WHEN DID HE TELL YOU THAT?
A OH, IT WAS JUST SOMETHING IN KIND OF PASSING,
5 THAT THEY WERE NOT TOGETHER ANYMORE.
Q SOMETIME DURING THAT DAY?
6 A UH-HUH.
Q YES?
7 A YES.
Q DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME IT WAS?
8 A IN THE AFTERNOON. I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT TIME.
Q COULD IT HAVE BEEN AROUND THAT 2:30 TIME THAT YOU
9 HAVE JUST --
A IT WAS DURING OUR CONVERSATION, YES.
10 Q AND WHEN HE TOLD YOU THAT -- WELL, CAN YOU
RECOUNT FOR US HIS EXACT WORDS?
11 A NO, NOT THE EXACT WORDS.
Q CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE TONE OF VOICE IN WHICH HE
12 TOLD YOU THAT?
A IT WAS CASUAL.
13 Q HE DID NOT SOUND ANGRY?
A NO.
14 Q WHAT WAS THE VERY NEXT TIME YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT
THAT DAY?
15 A I BELIEVE IT WAS AFTER THE RECITAL.
Q ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS THAT?
16 A I AM GUESSING ABOUT 6:30, 7:00, AROUND THERE.
THE EXACT TIME, I DON'T KNOW, BUT I THINK THAT'S ABOUT --
17 Q AROUND 7:00?
A YES, THE PLAY-OFF GAMES ENDED. THAT'S HOW I
18 REMEMBER THAT.
Q WHAT PLAY-OFF GAME WAS THAT?
19 A HOUSTON AND THE NICKS. SO IT WAS AFTER THAT,
ABOUT 6:30, 7:00.
20 Q DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE DEFENDANT?
A YES.
21 Q ABOUT WHAT?
A I ASKED HOW THE RECITAL WAS, AND HOW SIDNEY WAS,
22 AND, "SHE WAS GREAT."
Q IS THAT WHAT HE SAID, "SHE WAS GREAT"?
23 A UH-HUH.
Q YES?
24 A YES, "SHE WAS GREAT."
Q YOU HAVE TO SAY "YES" OR "NO" BECAUSE THIS LADY
25 DOES NOT HAVE A BUTTON FOR UH-HUH. OKAY?
A SHE SHOULD GET ONE.
26 Q AND WHAT WAS THE DEFENDANT'S MOOD LIKE AT THAT
POINT, ABOUT 7:00 O'CLOCK?
27 A NOT UPBEAT, NOT DOWNBEAT. I THOUGHT HE WAS
TIRED.
28 Q DID HE SEEM RELAXED?
0068
1 A YES.
Q MAKE ANY MENTION OF NICOLE?
2 A AT THE SECOND CONVERSATION?
Q YES, AT ABOUT 7:00 O'CLOCK, DID THE DEFENDANT
3 MENTION ANYTHING TO YOU ABOUT NICOLE?
A THAT HE SAW HER AT THE DANCE RECITAL.
4 Q AND WHAT ELSE DID HE SAY?
A THAT HER AND A FRIEND, THEY WERE WEARING TIGHT
5 OUTFITS.
Q AND?
6 A AND --
Q DID HE MAKE SOME MENTION ABOUT THAT, SOME -- DID
7 HE MAKE SOME COMMENT ABOUT THAT?
A IT WAS A COMMENT IF -- BEING ABLE TO DRESS THAT
8 WAY WHEN THEY ARE OLDER.
Q AND WHAT WAS HIS TONE OF VOICE? WAS IT ANGRY?
9 A NO.
Q WHAT WAS IT?
10 A KIND OF MATTER OF FACT.
Q WHAT WAS HE SAYING, HE WONDERED HOW THEY LOOKED
11 IN THOSE OUTFITS WHEN THEY GOT OLDER?
A YES.
12 Q WAS THAT IT? I AM ASKING YOU.
A OH, IT WAS -- THE EXACT WORDING, I DON'T KNOW.
13 "IF THEY ARE GOING TO BE GRANDMAS, THEY CAN'T WEAR THOSE
OUTFITS," SOMETHING LIKE THAT, "WHEN THEY ARE OLDER."
14 Q OKAY.
SO YOU SPOKE TO THE DEFENDANT FOR HOW LONG AT
15 THAT POINT?
A I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT -- HOW MANY MINUTES.
16 ABOUT A HALF HOUR.
Q WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT?
17 A I ASKED IF I COULD TAKE A JACUZZI.
Q AND DID HE SAY YES?
18 A YES.
Q DID YOU DO THAT?
19 A YES.
Q AND FOR HOW LONG DID YOU STAY IN THE JACUZZI?
20 A I STAYED IN THERE ABOUT A HALF HOUR.
Q HAD YOU EVER USED THE JACUZZI BEFORE?
21 A NO.
Q IS THAT THE FIRST TIME?
22 A YES, I SWAM IN IT BEFORE, BUT I NEVER ACTUALLY
USED IT, SAT IN IT TO USE IT.
23 Q IS -- HOW LONG DID YOU STAY IN THE JACUZZI?
A I THINK IT WAS ABOUT A HALF HOUR.
24 Q SO YOU GOT OUT ABOUT WHEN?
A I THINK WHEN I GOT OUT OF THERE IT WAS ABOUT
25 8:30, ABOUT.
Q AND AFTER YOU GOT OUT OF THE JACUZZI, WHAT DID
26 YOU DO NEXT?
A I MADE A PHONE CALL.
27 Q TO WHO?
A TO A FRIEND NAMED SUSAN.
28 Q AND WHILE YOU WERE ON THE PHONE, DID YOU HAVE
0069
1 CONTACT -- WHEN YOU WERE ON THE PHONE WITH SUSAN, DID YOU HAVE
CONTACT WITH SOMEONE ELSE?
2 A NO, I DON'T THINK IT WAS --
Q DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT WHILE YOU WERE ON THE
3 PHONE WITH SUSAN?
A NO. I THINK IT WAS AFTER, HE CAME TO MY ROOM.
4 Q THE DEFENDANT CAME TO YOUR ROOM?
A YES.
5 Q AND WHAT DID HE SAY TO YOU?
A THAT I FORGOT TO TURN THE JACUZZI OFF.
6 Q AND BY THAT TIME WERE YOU STILL ON THE PHONE WITH
SUSAN, OR HAD YOU HUNG UP?
7 A I THINK I HUNG UP.
Q AND WHAT DID THE DEFENDANT SAY TO YOU?
8 A TO REMEMBER TO TURN OFF THE JACUZZI NEXT TIME I
USE IT. AND HE ASKED ME IF I WAS DONE WITH THE JACUZZI, AND I
9 SAID, "YES, I AM DONE. SORRY THAT I DIDN'T TURN IT OFF."
Q DID YOU COME OUT OF YOUR ROOM TO SAY THAT TO HIM,
10 TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION?
A I WAS AT MY DOORWAY, I BELIEVE.
11 Q WHERE WAS HE?
A OUTSIDE THE DOOR.
12 Q HOW MANY FEET AWAY WERE YOU FROM EACH OTHER?
A I THINK THREE FEET.
13 Q DID YOU NOTICE ANY INJURY TO HIS HANDS OR THAT HE
WAS BLEEDING FROM HIS HANDS IN ANYWAY?
14 A NO.
Q WAS THERE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT HIS BEHAVIOR AT
15 THAT TIME?
A NO.
16 Q SO HE TOLD YOU THAT YOU HAD LEFT THE JETS ON IN
THE JACUZZI?
17 A YES.
Q WHAT ELSE DID HE SAY?
18 A NEXT TIME I USE IT, TURN IT OFF, THE JETS.
Q DID YOU GO AND TURN OFF THE JETS THEN?
19 A NO. HE HAD TURNED THE JETS OFF.
Q AND WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER THAT?
20 A I MADE A PHONE CALL.
Q SO YOU WENT BACK IN YOUR ROOM?
21 A I WENT BACK IN MY ROOM.
Q AND WHO DID YOU CALL THIS TIME?
22 A A FRIEND OF MINE, TOM.
Q AND DURING THAT PHONE CALL, DID YOU HAVE CONTACT
23 WITH THE DEFENDANT?
A YES.
24 Q WHAT HAPPENED?
A HE CAME BY, AND HE NEEDED TO BORROW MONEY TO --
25 BECAUSE HE HAD $100 BILLS, AND HE WANTED TO HAVE FIVE FOR A
SKY CAB, TO TIP THE SKY CAB. AND SO I LENT HIM MONEY.
26 Q NOW, WHEN HE CAME OUT TO THE GUEST HOUSE AT THAT
POINT WHILE YOU WERE ON THE PHONE WITH TOM, DID HE CALL OUT TO
27 YOU, OR DID HE JUST SHOW UP AT YOUR DOOR AND KNOCK?
A OH, HE CALLED OUT TO ME.
28 Q WHAT DID HE CALL YOU? BY WHAT NAME?
0070
1 A KATO.
Q IS THAT YOUR NICKNAME?
2 A YES.
Q SO HE ASKED TO BORROW MONEY FOR A SKY CAB?
3 A SKY CAB. AND HE WAS GOING TO GET A BURGER.
Q AND WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE?
4 A "SURE. WHAT DO YOU NEED?" WHATEVER I HAD.
Q SO DID YOU GET MONEY FOR HIM?
5 A YES.
Q HOW MUCH MONEY DID YOU GIVE HIM?
6 A $20.
Q AND DID YOU PUT THAT -- WAS IT A $20 BILL?
7 A $20 BILL.
Q DID YOU PUT IT IN HIS HAND?
8 A YES.
Q DID YOU NOTICE ANY INJURY TO HIS HAND?
9 A NO, I DID NOT.
Q WHAT WAS THE DEFENDANT WEARING AT THAT TIME?
10 A I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT CLOTHING. I THOUGHT IT
WAS A SWEAT OUTFIT.
11 Q SWEAT OUTFIT, LIKE SWEATSHIRT OR NYLON-TYPE?
A A WARMUP, I BELIEVE. I MEAN, I AM NOT POSITIVE
12 ON THAT, BUT I THINK IT WAS A WARMUP OUTFIT.
Q COULD YOU -- CAN YOU REMEMBER WHAT KIND OF
13 MATERIAL IT WAS, OR COULD YOU TELL AT THE TIME?
A NO, I COULD NOT.
14 Q WHAT COLOR WAS IT?
A IT WAS DARK.
15 Q BLACK?
A A DARK COLOR.
16 Q WAS IT BLACK?
A I MEAN IT WAS DARK OUT, SO IT WAS A DARK COLOR.
17 I MEAN, IT COULD HAVE BEEN DARK BLUE OR BLACK.
Q ONE OF THOSE?
18 A RIGHT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
19 DID IT HAVE LONG SLEEVES?
A YES.
20 Q AFTER YOU GAVE THE DEFENDANT A $20 BILL, WHAT DID
YOU NEXT DO?
21 A OH, I ASKED IF I COULD GO TO MC DONALD'S WITH
HIM.
22 Q AND HE SAID?
A "YES."
23 Q WHAT DID YOU DO?
A I WENT TO MC DONALD'S WITH HIM.
24 Q OKAY. DID YOU LEAVE?
A YES, WE LEFT.
25 Q DID YOU WALK THROUGH THE MAIN HOUSE TO DO THAT?
A YES, WE DID.
26 Q AND DID YOU GET INTO A CAR WITH HIM?
A YES.
27 Q WHAT CAR DID YOU GET INTO?
A HIS ROLLS ROYCE.
28 Q WHO DROVE?
A O.J.
Q THE DEFENDANT
A YES
0094
01 Can you look at the diagram to your left --
02 that's People's 7 -- and indicate, if you will, where
03 the Rolls Royce was parked when you got into it that
04 night to go to McDonald's?
05 A Stand up?
06 Q Please.
07 A Oh.
08 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness is
09 pointing.
10 BY MS. CLARK:
11 Q Will you please take the pen and put an 'R'
12 there.
13 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has placed
14 an 'R', a large 'R', on the diagram.
15 BY MS. CLARK:
16 Q Let me ask you, sir, if you would point out on
17 this diagram, if you can, on these photographs that have
18 been marked as People's 6, if you can see the area where
19 the Rolls was parked that night when you went out to
20 Mc Donald's, and was it parked in the same place that's
21 shown in the photograph labeled as 'F'?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Was it pointing out towards the Rockingham
24 gate that way as well?
25 A Yes.
26 Q Was that usually where that Rolls Royce was
27 kept parked, sir?
28 A Yes.
0095
01 Q What time was it when you left to get burgers?
02 A It was about 9:10.
03 Q And what gate did you exit through?
04 A The gate?
05 Q Yes.
06 A The gate that's on Rockingham.
07 Q The Rockingham gate.
08 Is that the gate shown in photograph 'F' of
09 People's 6?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did you notice any injury to the defendant's
12 hands as he drove the Rolls Royce to go get something to
13 eat?
14 A No, I did not.
15 Q When you left out, when you went out the
16 Rockingham gate, did you look to see whether there were
17 any cars parked near the Rockingham gate?
18 A I did not.
19 Q Do you know, sir, whether the defendant owned
20 a white Ford Bronco?
21 A Did I know if he owned one?
22 Q Yes.
23 A Yes.
24 Q Had you seen it around the property?
25 A Yes.
26 Q And have you seen it around the property from
27 the time you moved in in January of '94?
28 A Yes.
0096
01 Q Was there one particular place where he would
02 always park it?
03 A It wasn't -- it could be in the driveway. It
04 was on Ashford, you know, the street Ashford. It was
05 inside the gated area. It wasn't a set spot ever. I
06 mean, but normally my car would be parked on Ashford
07 with it.
08 Q So you used to park either in front or behind
09 the white Ford Bronco?
10 A Yeah, on the same road.
11 Q And that would be on the Ashford side?
12 A Um-hum. The Ashford side.
13 Q And that would be inside the gate?
14 A No. It could be -- it's on -- it could be
15 parked outside, it could be parked inside. Normally it
16 was parked outside on Ashford.
17 Q Normally parked outside the Ashford gate; is
18 that right?
19 A The Ashford side; correct.
20 Q Can you tell us -- yes.
21 Do you see the Ashford side gate in these
22 photographs, sir?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Which one is that?
25 A 'A'.
26 MS. CLARK: And for the record, when I say "these
27 photographs," again I was referring to People's 6.
28 \ \
0097
01 BY MS. CLARK:
02 Q Now the white Ford Bronco I have been
03 referring to --
04 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, I ask that this series of
05 photographs labeled 'A' through 'F' be marked
06 collectively as People's 8.
07 THE COURT: All right.
08 BY MS. CLARK:
09 Q Can you see these photographs, Mr. Kaelin?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Can you tell us if you recognize the vehicle
12 shown in photograph 'A' of People's 8?
13 A Do I recognize it? Yes. The Bronco, yes.
14 Q Is that the white Ford Bronco that you
15 recognize as belonging to the defendant?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And the one that was parked -- that was always
18 parked at the Ashford side gate.
19 A It was -- yeah. It was -- that's the white
20 Bronco, yes.
21 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object to --
22 MS. CLARK: May I --
23 MR. SHAPIRO: Excuse me. May I complete my
24 objection?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
26 MR. SHAPIRO: I'm going to object to the statement
27 by the prosecutor that it was always parked on the
28 Ashford side gate. That misstates the evidence.
0098
01 THE COURT: Sustained.
02 BY MS. CLARK:
03 Q Was that white Ford Bronco, to your knowledge,
04 when you were living there from January of '94 through
05 June of '94, was that vehicle, the white Ford Bronco,
06 always parked at the Ashford gate?
07 A Not always. But it would be parked on
08 Ashford. But not always on Ashford.
09 Q Where else would it be parked?
10 A It could be parked inside the lot and --
11 Q If it was parked inside the gate, would it be
12 on the Ashford side of the gate, the Ashford gate that
13 it was parked? Do you know what I mean?
14 You have the other driveway that goes -- the
15 driveway that leads to the Ashford gate, and you have
16 the driveway that leads to the Rockingham gate; right?
17 A Right.
18 Q If it was parked inside of the gate, would it
19 be parked on the Ashford side of the driveway?
20 A The front of the house, it would be parked in
21 the front of the house, so he'd have to back it up, I
22 guess, to go -- you could go through either way.
23 Q You could go through and go out Rockingham or
24 else go through and go out Ashford?
25 A With the gate, correct.
26 Q And when it was parked outside the gate,
27 though, was it parked on Ashford?
28 A Well, most of the time it would be on Ashford.
0099
01 Q So is it your testimony, sir, that it was
02 normally parked on the Ashford side, outside the Ashford
03 gate?
04 A Normally.
05 Q On the way to Mc Donald's, did you happen to
06 notice the time?
07 A Um, yes, I did.
08 Q And where were you when you noticed what time
09 it was?
10 A At 26th and San Vicente. It's a stop light.
11 Q What time was it when you got to 26th and
12 San Vicente?
13 A It was 9:18. 9:15 or 9:18. It was right in
14 there on his clock in the car.
15 Q How long after that did you get to
16 Mc Donald's?
17 A About seven minutes.
18 Q And did you go into the restaurant or did you
19 drive to the take-up window -- the take-out window?
20 A The drive-through window.
21 Q The drive-through window, thank you.
22 Was that on your side or on the defendant's
23 side?
24 A On -- it was on the driver's side, the window.
25 Q When he pulled up to the window, did you have
26 to pay first and then get your food later?
27 A Yes.
28 Q Who paid for the food?
0100
01 A I paid 'cause he had 20's and I had another
02 20, so I paid for the food.
03 Q Did you hand a second $20 bill then to the
04 defendant to pay?
05 A Yes.
06 Q And what did he do with that $20 bill you gave
07 him in the car?
08 A Paid Mc Donald's.
09 Q Did you see him do that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And did he get change back?
12 A Change back.
13 Q Okay. Did you notice any injury to his hands
14 at that time?
15 A No.
16 Q Did you drive forward and get the food at the
17 second window?
18 A Yes, we did.
19 Q Did he take that food?
20 A Yes.
21 Q What did he do with it?
22 A He took the food.
23 Q Yes.
24 Where did he put it?
25 A The bag was in his lap. Then he gave me
26 the -- my stuff, my food.
27 Q So he was -- and what did he do with his food?
28 A He ate it.
0101
01 Q And he drove at the same time?
02 A Yes.
03 Q And he did that on the way back to the house
04 at Rockingham?
05 A Yes.
06 Q Did you eat your food as well?
07 A No. I had a few French fries, but that was
08 it, and I didn't eat the main course.
09 Q If you can call it that.
10 A Yeah.
11 Q So he drove and he ate his dinner at the same
12 time on the way back to Rockingham.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you notice any injury to his hands at that
15 time?
16 A No, I did not.
17 Q Or bleeding?
18 A No.
19 Q What time did you get home?
20 A About 9:40, 9:45. Around there.
21 Q Which gate did you enter through, Ashford or
22 Rockingham?
23 A I don't remember.
24 Q Do you remember where the car -- where the
25 defendant parked the Rolls?
26 A Same spot. In that picture we saw before.
27 Q The spot you indicated on --
28 A 'F'.
0102
01 Q Thank you. Photograph 'F' of People's 6.
02 All right.
03 Would you describe the defendant's demeanor at
04 that time when you got back from Mc Donald's. How did
05 he appear to you?
06 A He looked tired.
07 Q Tired?
08 A I thought tired, yes.
09 Q Other than that, anything unusual?
10 A No.
11 Q What did you do when you got back to the
12 residence?
13 A I got out and went to my room to eat.
14 Q You took your food back to your room?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q Did you see where the defendant went?
17 A No, I did not. He got out of the car so --
18 Q Now, who else was in the house that night when
19 you came back from Mc Donald's? Other than you and the
20 defendant, was there anyone else around?
21 A Not that I knew of, no.
22 Q Can you tell us who usually occupied the other
23 two guest units?
24 A Arnelle, O.J.'s daughter, and the maid,
25 housekeeper.
26 Q Housekeeper.
27 Were you acquainted with the defendant's --
28 one of the defendant's sons named Jason?
0103
01 A Yes, I know Jason.
02 Q And approximately how old is he?
03 A 25.
04 Q Did he have a guest unit there that he stayed
05 in?
06 A No.
07 Q Did you see him there that day?
08 A No.
09 Q Was he there that night?
10 A No.
11 Q So neither Arnelle nor Jason was there that
12 night?
13 A No.
14 Q And --
15 A From what I knew. I didn't see them, so, no,
16 they weren't.
17 Q And the housekeeper that the defendant had who
18 stayed in the third unit, guest unit, was she there that
19 night?
20 A No.
21 Q When you got back to your room, what did you
22 do?
23 A I ate my sandwich and called my friend back
24 up.
25 Q For how long did you talk to your friend?
26 A I think about 10, 15 minutes.
27 Q And what did you do after that?
28 A After that I was going to type up some
0104
01 letters, so I went to type up some letters but the
02 typewriter wasn't working, so I made another phone call.
03 Q Who did you call?
04 A My friend, Rachael.
05 Q And what time was it when you called her?
06 A I called her at about 10:10, around there.
07 Q During that phone call, did something unusual
08 occur?
09 A Yeah. I heard a noise.
10 Q Now how long had you been talking to your
11 friend Rachael when you heard that noise?
12 A It was probably a half hour into the
13 conversation.
14 Q Okay. So about 10:45 or so you heard a
15 noise?
16 A About that time.
17 Q Can you describe for us the noise you heard,
18 Mr. Kaelin?
19 A It was -- you know, my room, it has this wall
20 and it was a -- (Noise made) like that.
21 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness thumped on
22 the witness stand with his fist.
23 THE COURT: You hit the witness stand like three
24 times or so. Was it three noises that you heard?
25 THE WITNESS: I believe it was three noises. It
26 was a thumping.
27 BY MS. CLARK:
28 Q It sounded like three thumps?
0105
01 A Yes.
02 Q And where did the thumps seem to come from?
03 A Right behind the bedroom wall where my bed
04 would be.
05 Q You said you have an air conditioning unit in
06 the hole in the wall?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Was it in the same wall that the air
09 conditioning unit was in?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Was it near the air conditioning unit that the
12 thump seemed to come from?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What happened when you heard those thumps?
15 A Well, I was on the phone and I said -- I asked
16 Rachael, I said, "I think we had a earthquake. Did we
17 have an earthquake?" And, "no," she said.
18 And I noticed my picture moved, so I started
19 thinking that maybe it was a person back there. And
20 then I have this little flashlight and I was going to
21 investigate.
22 Q So there was a picture on that wall also.
23 A (No audible response.)
24 Q Is that "yes"?
25 A Yes, it was a picture.
26 Q And that moved when you heard the noises?
27 A Yes. It almost moved off the wall.
28 Q Now, the area that you're talking about, if
0106
01 this diagram were to go farther to your left, my right,
02 it would be along this pathway, this south pathway that
03 you've traced with a line here? That's just below the
04 garage on the diagram?
05 A Yes.
06 Q And the wall of your guest house that you're
07 referring to where you heard the thumps is the wall that
08 faces onto that little pathway?
09 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. So after you heard those thumps, you
11 indicated before you thought it was an earthquake or
12 maybe someone outside?
13 A Right. I said to her on the phone, I said as
14 a joke, "if I don't call back in ten minutes, start to
15 worry."
16 Q And were you worried?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Were you scared?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Did you think it might be a prowler?
21 A Yes.
22 Q So what did you do?
23 A Well, I got the little flashlight and I went
24 out to check on the noise.
25 Q Now, you hung up the phone how long after you
26 heard the thumps?
27 A About two to three minutes. Pretty -- pretty
28 fast I hung up the phone.
0107
01 Q Pretty fast?
02 A I'm pretty sure I did. I might have talked
03 about the noise for a bit but then I hung up and said I
04 was going to go and do it and check on it. So two or
05 three minutes.
06 Q Do you recall testifying before the grand jury
07 that it was one to five minutes?
08 A Yes. That's in the range.
09 Q That's in the range, yes.
10 It could have been as little as one minute?
11 A It might have been, yes.
12 Q So the time between hearing the thumps and you
13 hanging up the phone could have been as little as one
14 minute, as much as five minutes?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You took the flashlight with you.
17 A Yes, I did.
18 Q Where did you go?
19 A To the area from my room, I went around and
20 went to the garage area.
21 Q When you say you went to the garage area, what
22 part of the garage area did you go to?
23 A Well, I walked down the pathway just a bit.
24 Q And you mean the area you've indicated earlier
25 that would be just below where it's indicating "garage"
26 on that diagram?
27 Again, you are pointing to it now.
28 Is that the area where you've kind of
0108
01 previously drawn a line?
02 A Yes.
03 Q How did you get to that area? What path did
04 you take to get there?
05 A From my room?
06 Q Yes.
07 A I -- there's a path that I followed to the
08 front area.
09 Q So did you walk through the pool area?
10 A Through the pool area, and then --
11 Q And is there a grassy portion on the Ashford
12 side of the house?
13 A There's grass, right, but I stayed on the
14 cement.
15 Q You stayed on the path?
16 A And walked to that area.
17 Q So the garage area?
18 A Yes.
19 Q When you came out on the path, on the Ashford
20 side of the house, can you show us that path and mark
21 it?
22 A Say it again? What was it?
23 Q The path that you say you walked on.
24 A Right.
25 Q That's on the Ashford side of the house.
26 Could you please mark that on the diagram.
27 A As I was coming from my room back here, this
28 would be the path right here. Like that.
0109
01 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has traced
02 a path --
03 BY MS. CLARK:
04 Q I would like for you to mark that path --
05 A This path?
06 Q Yes. Mark the path indicating where -- put a
07 'B' -- no, no, we already have a 'B'.
08 Put a 'K' on that path.
09 Thank you, Mr. Kaelin.
10 MS. CLARK: And the witness has marked the path
11 with a 'K' where he's indicated.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 BY MS. CLARK:
14 Q So you walked down that path to the driveway,
15 down the driveway, past the garage, and down the
16 south -- over to the southern corner of the garage?
17 A I only went so far the first time. About
18 that far.
19 Q For the record, why don't you mark where that
20 is. Put K-1.
21 You can step down.
22 Thank you.
23 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has placed
24 K-1 on the diagram.
25 BY MS. CLARK:
26 Q That's where you stopped?
27 A Yes.
28 Q When you first came out on the path, sir, did
0110
01 you notice anything or anyone in the driveway or at the
02 gate?
03 A The limousine.
04 Q Did you see anyone sitting in the car?
05 A I couldn't tell if someone was in the car or
06 not. It was just the car was there.
07 Q Did you stop to talk to that person or let
08 them in the gate?
09 A Not the first time.
10 Q Why not?
11 A Because I figured there was an intercom phone
12 there, that the person took care of everything. He
13 probably called the house.
14 Q Can the gate be opened from inside the house
15 electronically?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, when you went around to the Ashford side
18 gate -- when you first came out on the path, were the
19 lights in the house on or off?
20 A The light upstairs I think was on.
21 Q How about downstairs?
22 A No, I didn't notice any lights on downstairs.
23 Q So did it appear to you that the lights
24 downstairs were off when you first came out on that
25 path?
26 A I don't remember.
27 The lights inside the house?
28 Q Inside the house, downstairs.
0111
01 A I don't remember if lights were on or off. I
02 think it was dark.
03 Q After you got to that point on the path of the
04 garage -- strike that.
05 A I think the lights were on. I'm -- God. I
06 think the lights were on. It's a mat