Preliminary Hearing - July 5, 1994
0001
01 IN THE MUNICIPAL COURT OF LOS ANGELES JUDICIAL DISTRICT
02 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES, STATE OF CALIFORNIA
03 HON. KATHLEEN KENNEDY-POWELL, JUDGE DEPARTMENT 105
04 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, ) NO. BA097211
04 )
05 PLAINTIFF, )
05 )
06 VS. ) VOLUME 6
06 )
07 )
07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
08 AKA O.J. SIMPSON, )
08 )
09 )
09 DEFENDANT. )
10 _______________________________________)
10
11
11
12 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
12
13 TUESDAY, JULY 5, 1994
13
14
14
15 APPEARANCES:
15
16 FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MARCIA CLARK
16 WILLIAM HODGMAN
17 DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
17
18
18
19 FOR THE DEFENDANT: ROBERT SHAPIRO
19 GERALD UELMEN
20 PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
20
21
21
22
22
23 SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES
23
24
24
25
25
26
26 ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
27 LAURIE A. SMALL, CSR #4654
27 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
28
28
0002
01 EVIDENCE MOTIONS
01
02 I N D E X
02
03
03
04 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT(S): IN EVIDENCE
04
05 1 - "PROCEEDINGS OF THE 4
05 INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM
06 ON FORENSIC HAIR
06 COMPARISONS" ARTICLE
07
07 2 - "FORENSIC SCIENCE, AN 4
08 INTRODUCTION TO
08 CRIMINALISTICS" ARTICLE
09
09
0003
01 PRELIMINARY HEARING
01
02
02
03 I N D E X
03 VOIR
04 PEOPLE'S WITNESS(ES): DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS DIRE
04
05 ALLAN PARK 6 46 71
05
06 BRIAN KATO KAELIN 76
06
07
07
08
08
09
09
10 -O0O-
10
11
11
12 EXHIBITS
12
13
13
14 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT(S) FOR IDENTIFICATION
14
15 6 - SERIES OF PHOTOS 8
15
16 7 - DIAGRAM 10
16
17
17
18
18
0004
01 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
02 TUESDAY, JULY 5, 1994
03 9:00 A.M.
04 -O0O-
05
06 THE COURT: Good morning.
07 MR. SHAPIRO: Good morning, Your Honor.
08 MR. UELMEN: Good morning, your honor.
09 MS. CLARK: Good morning, Your Honor.
10 MR. HODGMAN: Good morning, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: We are once again on the record in the
12 case of People versus Simpson.
13 The defendant is present with counsel. The
14 people are represented.
15 There is one item of housekeeping, in essence,
16 that I'd like to take care of -- and we did discuss this
17 in chambers and I didn't every follow through back on
18 the record -- and that was with reference to the motion
19 with regard to the hair and the hair samples.
20 The prosecution had marked two exhibits which
21 had never been formally moved into evidence. They were
22 marked for identification only. Those were a couple of
23 articles that Ms. Kestler had referred to.
24 Ms. Clark, do the people want to make a motion
25 with regard to those exhibits at this time?
26 MS. CLARK: Yes, thank you, Your Honor.
27 The people would ask the court to receive them
28 into evidence for the purpose of that hearing.
0005
01 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, do you wish to be heard?
02 MR. SHAPIRO: Submit it, Your Honor.
03 THE COURT: All right.
04 People's 1 and 2 then will be received with
05 regard to that particular motion.
06 Now, with reference to the preliminary hearing
07 we are in progress on, do you have a witness now that
08 you can call?
09 MS. CLARK: Yes, I do, Your Honor.
10 I would like to apprise the court of the fact
11 that the people have filed a response to the motion to
12 suppress. It was FAX-ed to counsel, and I'd like to
13 also serve counsel on the record with a conformed copy
14 of the motion as well.
15 I'm handing a copy to Mr. Uelmen.
16 It has been filed with the court.
17 THE COURT: For the record, the court received that
18 about ten minutes ago.
19 MS. CLARK: Yes.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 MR. SHAPIRO: We received it at 7:26 this morning.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 Call your next witness at this time.
24 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
25 People call Mr. Allan Park.
26 THE COURT: Face the clerk and rise your right
27 hand, please.
28 \ \
0006
01 THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear the testimony you
02 may give in the cause now pending before this court
03 shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
04 truth, so help you God?
05 THE WITNESS: I do.
06
07 Allan Park,
08 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
09 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
10 follows:
11 THE CLERK: Please be seated.
12 State and spell your name for the record.
13 THE WITNESS: Allan Park. A-l-l-a-n, p-a-r-k.
14 THE COURT: You may inquire.
15 MS. CLARK: Thank you, Your Honor.
16
17 DIRECT EXAMINATION
18
19 BY MS. CLARK:
20 Q Mr. Park, tell us what you do for a living.
21 A I drive limousines.
22 Q And how long have you been doing that, sir?
23 A I was working for town and country limo for
24 about three months. Three and a half months.
25 Q And as of June the 12th, 1994, were you
26 working for town and country limousine?
27 A Yes, I was.
28 Q Were you a limo driver for that company, sir?
0007
01 A Yes, I was.
02 Q On the date of June the 12th, 1994, did you
03 have an order for pick-up in Brentwood that evening?
04 A Yes, I did.
05 Q And what was your order?
06 A My order was to pick up O.J. Simpson at
07 360 Rockingham.
08 Q And what time were you supposed to be there?
09 A 10:45.
10 Q Where were you supposed to take him?
11 A To L.A. airport.
12 Q Now, had you ever been to that area before?
13 A No, I haven't.
14 Q And what time did you get there?
15 A I arrived at about 10:25. I got there
16 early. I wanted to make sure I knew where the house
17 was, and we're always told to be there ten minutes
18 early.
19 Q So you were there actually 20 minutes early.
20 A Yes.
21 Q When you arrived there at 10:25, where did you
22 park?
23 A I parked on Ashford, pointing east. Or west,
24 that would be. Sorry.
25 Q Was that near a gate of some kind?
26 A Yes, it was. It was across the street from
27 the gate.
28 Q And was that gate that we're referring to, was
0008
01 that gate part of the property of 360 Rockingham?
02 A Yes, it was.
03 Q So you parked across the street from the
04 residence on the Ashford side?
05 A Yes, I did.
06 MR. SHAPIRO: I'm going to object, Your Honor.
07 That is not what his testimony was.
08 THE COURT: Well, he just stated that's where he
09 parked.
10 Is that where you parked?
11 THE WITNESS: That's where I parked.
12 MR. SHAPIRO: He said it was across the street from
13 the residence. That was not his testimony.
14 THE COURT: Where exactly were you parked, sir?
15 THE WITNESS: I was parked right on Ashford, across
16 the street from the residence.
17 THE COURT: All right. The objection is
18 overruled.
19 MS. CLARK: Thank you, Your Honor.
20 I have a series of photographs, 'A' through
21 'F'. I ask they be marked People's next in order. I
22 believe it's 5 -- 6.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q Showing you what's been marked as People's 6,
26 can you tell me if you recognize this location, sir?
27 A Yes, I do.
28 Q I'm going to put it up here so you can see it.
0009
01 Can you see it?
02 A Yes.
03 Q Here's a pointer if you need it.
04 First of all, directing your attention to the
05 photograph labeled 'B', does that appear to be a corner
06 to you, sir?
07 A Yes, it does.
08 Q Can you point out which side is which
09 street? Can you tell from that photograph?
10 A It's kind of hard.
11 Q All right.
12 Let me direct your attention then to
13 photograph 'C'.
14 You want to step down and look at it.
15 A Okay.
16 Q Can you orient yourself now?
17 A Oh, yeah. That's Rockingham.
18 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has
19 gestured to the photograph labeled 'C' and said, "that's
20 Rockingham."
21 BY MS. CLARK:
22 Q So the street shown where the police car is
23 and where that white Bronco is farther down the street,
24 that's Rockingham?
25 A I believe so, yes.
26 Q Okay. Then in photograph 'B', can you tell
27 us what streets are shown?
28 A Well, it looks like the corner of Ashford and
0010
01 Rockingham.
02 Q Can you point out to us which one is Ashford?
03 A This one, to the left.
04 Q Okay.
05 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has pointed
06 out the left street indicated as you face the
07 photograph.
08 BY MS. CLARK:
09 Q And which side is Rockingham?
10 A This side with the police car.
11 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has pointed
12 to the area shown with the police car in photograph 'B'.
13 I have a diagram, Your Honor. I'd ask that
14 be marked as People's 7.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 BY MS. CLARK:
17 Q Showing you People's 7, sir, can you tell us
18 if you recognize what's depicted in that diagram?
19 A Yes, I can.
20 Q What is it?
21 A It looks like a diagram of the residence.
22 Q Now, on that diagram, can you show us roughly
23 where you parked when you first arrived at 360
24 Rockingham at 10:25?
25 A I was on this side of the street of Ashford,
26 parked almost parallel with the gate.
27 MS. CLARK: And for the record, the witness has
28 pointed to the very top of the diagram, that would
0011
01 appear to be across the street from the residence and
02 parallel to the gate indicated by two horizontal lines,
03 one slightly to the -- one slightly lower than the
04 other.
05 BY MS. CLARK:
06 Q Can you point out the area you're referring to
07 as the gate, sir, for the record?
08 A As the gate?
09 Q Um-hum.
10 A This area right here.
11 Q Thank you.
12 MS. CLARK: The witness has pointed out that area.
13 BY MS. CLARK:
14 Q I'm going to ask you to write on the diagram,
15 if you will, write "gate" where you're indicating gate.
16 A Write "gate"?
17 Q Yeah, the word.
18 Is there another gate indicated in that
19 diagram?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Can you write that down also, sir?
22 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has done
23 so. He has indicated with the word "gate" at the top
24 of the diagram where the two lines indicated earlier,
25 just above where it says "driveway." He's indicated
26 "gate."
27 And then at the bottom of the drive -- of the
28 diagram where it's indicated "driveway," he has
0012
01 indicated "gate" again.
02 Can the court see that?
03 THE COURT: Yes, I can.
04 BY MS. CLARK:
05 Q Now, what route did you take to get to that
06 location, sir?
07 A I came up Rockingham on this side going north
08 and I was going a little fast so I missed the house, saw
09 the address, made a right onto Ashford, went halfway
10 down to Ashford and made a U-turn, came back and parked
11 where I said earlier.
12 Q Now, was that a stretch limo or a regular
13 size? Can you tell us how big it was?
14 A It was a stretch.
15 Q Did that make it difficult for you to make
16 turns?
17 A Yeah.
18 Q So you got to the location across the street
19 from the gate, on the Ashford side of the house, at
20 10:25 and parked there?
21 A Um-hum; correct.
22 Q Is that "yes"?
23 A Correct.
24 Q What happened next?
25 A I had a little bit of time, so I just stepped
26 out of the car and had a cigarette and listened to the
27 radio for a little bit and --
28 Q When you stepped out of the car, where did you
0013
01 go?
02 A I just went to the back of the limousine, sat
03 on the curb.
04 Q And after you finished your cigarette, what
05 did you do?
06 A Got back in the car and proceeded to wait
07 another five minutes or so.
08 At about 10:40 is when I pulled up to the
09 front gate. After I came around first -- I came around
10 Ashford onto Rockingham, looked in the driveway and it
11 just didn't look accessible as the other driveway, so I
12 backed up and came back over to Ashford.
13 Q All right.
14 So you got back in your car at about what time
15 after having the cigarette?
16 A 10 -- just before 10:40.
17 Q And what did you do then?
18 A Just what I told you.
19 Q Okay. You drove down Ashford?
20 A Yes. Made a left on Rockingham, looked at
21 the driveway and just -- it didn't look easy to get
22 into, so I backed straight back up and went back to the
23 Ashford gate.
24 Q So was it 10:40 at the point when you reached
25 the Rockingham gate?
26 A It was, you know, about the time. It was --
27 there was only a 30 second interview -- interval or so
28 from me coming to this gate, going back to there. It
0014
01 was about 10:40 when I pulled up to the gate on Ashford.
02 Q So was it about 10:39 when you pulled down to
03 the Rockingham gate?
04 A Yes, I would say that.
05 Q When you pulled down to the Rockingham gate,
06 you say you looked down the driveway?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Would that mean, sir, that your driver's side
09 window was parallel to the driveway?
10 A Yes, it was.
11 Q And so you were right next to this area here
12 that I'm indicating with my pen, which is just above the
13 line that seems to indicate the edge of the driveway
14 uppermost on the Rockingham side?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Now, why were you looking up that driveway,
17 for what purpose?
18 A To drive into it.
19 Q And why did it seem inaccessible to you?
20 A It just seemed too narrow. The two walls
21 here, and just the way the cars were and the way the
22 driveway bent this way, it didn't look as easy as the
23 other side, as coming in straight ahead and then making
24 the turn.
25 Q So it looked a little bit too tight to get up
26 to the front door from that gate?
27 A Yes.
28 Q So you were looking carefully through that
0015
01 window to assess whether or not you could make the turn?
02 A Yeah.
03 Q Did you notice any white Ford Bronco parked on
04 the Rockingham side near the gate?
05 A No, I didn't.
06 Q Would you have seen it had it been parked
07 there next to the gate?
08 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection; calls for speculation.
09 THE COURT: Sustained as to the form of the
10 question.
11 BY MS. CLARK:
12 Q Given the manner in which you were looking at
13 that location when you pulled up to the Rockingham gate,
14 would that white Ford Bronco have been right in your
15 field of view?
16 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection; calls for speculation.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 BY MS. CLARK:
19 Q You can answer.
20 A I wouldn't say I was -- it was right in my
21 exact sight. If --
22 Q Was it in your field of view where you were
23 looking --
24 A No.
25 Q -- towards the driveway?
26 Was that area -- let me indicate with my pen.
27 Were you able to see this area as you were
28 looking up the driveway?
0016
01 A Yes, I was.
02 MS. CLARK: For the record, I'm indicating the area
03 just above the line that appears to indicate the upper
04 boundary of the driveway.
05 BY MS. CLARK:
06 Q Okay. Were you able to see this area?
07 A Yes, I was.
08 Q And as you were looking down the driveway you
09 could see this area that I'm indicating with your pen?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you did not see the white Ford Bronco?
12 A No, I didn't.
13 Q Thank you.
14 Now, that was 10:40 approximately, or 10:39,
15 you said?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And then what did you do? After you pulled
18 up to that Rockingham gate, you indicated.
19 A I backed straight back up and made another
20 left on Ashford and came up to this gate, the Ashford
21 gate.
22 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness pointed to
23 the Ashford gate.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q Where did you park when you came back to the
26 Ashford side?
27 A I pulled in frontwards in the limousine and,
28 you know, the front bumper was just about touching the
0017
01 gate.
02 Q So at that point, was the front of your limo
03 pointing into the driveway?
04 A Yes, it was.
05 Q And what time was it at that point when you
06 pulled up to the gate facing into the driveway on the
07 Ashford side?
08 A About 10:40.
09 Q What happened next?
10 A I turned off my lights and I put -- I just had
11 my parking lights on. I stepped out of the car and
12 rang the intercom, which is just to the left by the --
13 Q Can you please show us where that is?
14 A It would be right about here.
15 Q Let me let you a mark that.
16 Why don't you just mark that with an 'I',
17 where the intercom was.
18 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has placed
19 an 'I' on the diagram at what appears to be the --
20 THE WITNESS: It's not that exact spot.
21 MS. CLARK: Okay.
22 -- Near one of the lines indicating "gate" on
23 the diagram that is closest to the Ashford side.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q And when you pressed the intercom, could
26 you -- was there a sound that it made?
27 A Yeah. It made a buzzing noise or something
28 like that.
0018
01 Q And what happened after you buzzed?
02 A There was no answer.
03 Q What did you do?
04 A I continued to buzz the bell a few times after
05 that.
06 Q Did you get an answer?
07 A No.
08 Q Now can you tell me, sir, at that point, were
09 you able to see the house itself?
10 A Yes, I was.
11 Q Were there lights on in the house?
12 A There was one on upstairs.
13 Q And downstairs?
14 A Not that I can see, no. I thought they were
15 off.
16 Q From what you could tell, all the lights
17 appeared to be off downstairs?
18 A Yes.
19 Q For how long did you continue to ring the
20 bell?
21 A I rang it off and on until about 10:50 before
22 I called my boss.
23 Q So from 10:40 to 10:50, you continued to ring
24 the bell.
25 A Yeah.
26 Q And you got no response?
27 A No.
28 Q When you were ringing the bell, could you tell
0019
01 whether -- tell us whether you were facing into the
02 driveway or away? How were you standing?
03 A I was standing right in front of the gate.
04 Q And which way were you facing?
05 A Kind of southeast. Not looking straight
06 through the gate, but just facing the intercom.
07 Q And facing the intercom meant that you were
08 facing the driveway?
09 A Towards the driveway, yeah. It's -- not
10 exactly looking straight into the driveway. Kind of
11 catty-corner looking at the wall.
12 Q What wall is that?
13 A This wall here. Just the big pillar.
14 MS. CLARK: And for the record, the witness has
15 indicated the box area just to the right of the place
16 where he put 'I'.
17 BY MS. CLARK:
18 Q Are you able to see the driveway from where
19 you're standing at the intercom?
20 A Yes.
21 Q You continued to ring the bell until 10:50 and
22 you got no answer.
23 A Correct.
24 Q What happened at that point?
25 A At that point I made a phone call, paging my
26 boss, which I waited for him to call back. He called
27 back at about 10:55.
28 Q Now, did you call your -- was your boss the
0020
01 first person you called?
02 A I paged him first and I wasn't sure if the
03 page went through, so I called my mom and had her get a
04 phone number for me which was his house number, and I
05 called back on the house number and nobody was there.
06 And right after I hung up, he called back.
07 Q What time was it when you paged your boss?
08 A Just about 10:50.
09 Q Well, you were ringing the bell until 10:50?
10 A Um-hum.
11 Q Is that "yes"?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Then you paged him, you said?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Then you called your mom.
16 A Yes.
17 Q And then you paged him again.
18 A No. I called his house.
19 Q You called his house.
20 A And there was no answer. And after I hung up
21 the phone, I was called back. The page was
22 responded. He called me back.
23 Q And during -- between the time that you paged
24 your boss and he called back, what did you do? Did you
25 get out of the car again?
26 A Yeah. I got out of the car and rang the bell
27 a couple more times.
28 Q So you had paged your boss, called your
0021
01 mother, called his home and then got out of the car and
02 rang the bell again?
03 A A couple times, yeah.
04 Q A couple times?
05 A Yeah.
06 Q Was there an answer?
07 A No.
08 Q Did you get back in the car?
09 A Yeah. When the phone rang.
10 Q So you heard the phone ring inside the car.
11 A Yeah. I had the door open. The car door
12 was open.
13 Q I see.
14 So the driver's side door was open?
15 A Um-hum.
16 Q Is that "yes"?
17 A Yes, yes.
18 Q And then you went -- he -- when you were at
19 the intercom buzzing again, you could hear the phone
20 ringing inside the car?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You got back inside the car.
23 What happened next?
24 A My boss was on the phone and I just told him,
25 I said, "I don't think anybody's home." And what he
26 told me was that he said, "Mr. Simpson's always running
27 late, so just make sure you hang out until about 11:15,
28 and if he's not there by then, just go ahead and come on
0022
01 home."
02 Q Did he give you some direction about what to
03 look for in the house?
04 A Yeah. He asked me if there was a light on
05 in -- you know, 'cause I told him there was no lights
06 on.
07 He asked me if there was a light on that
08 resembled like a pantry or something like that that was
09 behind the garage area, and I just told him no, I didn't
10 see any lights on downstairs at all.
11 Q What time was it when your boss called you
12 back?
13 A About 10:55.
14 Q So you had the -- he called you back at 10:55,
15 you had the conversation with him that you've recounted
16 for us.
17 And after you had that conversation with him,
18 what did you do?
19 A As before, I was going to hang up, that's when
20 I saw this white male come out from behind the house.
21 Q Were you seated in the car at the time?
22 A Yes, I was.
23 Q Was your driver's door open or closed?
24 A I -- from what I can remember, it was open.
25 Q You saw a white male step out where, if you
26 can indicate on the diagram.
27 A He came out from this way. He came out
28 towards the driveway.
0023
01 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness is
02 indicating what appears to be a path area to the right
03 of the driveway as it's indicated on the Ashford side.
04 BY MS. CLARK:
05 Q Do you have the pen still?
06 A No.
07 Q Could you indicate with an 'X' roughly the
08 general area where you first saw that white male.
09 A Where I first saw him?
10 Q Yes.
11 Could you make it a little bigger.
12 Thank you.
13 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has done
14 so, placing a blue 'X' in the area previously indicated.
15 BY MS. CLARK:
16 Q From where you were seated at that time, sir,
17 can you show us where -- what area was visible to you of
18 the driveway.
19 A It would be about -- I could see to about the
20 corner of the house, a little bit farther back, to about
21 this area.
22 Q All right.
23 I'm going to ask you to draw a line indicating
24 that area of visibility that you've just pointed us with
25 the pointer.
26 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has done
27 so.
28 \ \
0024
01 BY MS. CLARK:
02 Q Can you tell us, is there a porch light at the
03 area marked "front door," at the front door of the
04 residence? Was there a porch light?
05 A From what I can remember, yes.
06 Q How much light did that offer? How much area
07 did it light up?
08 A You want me to draw it?
09 Q Sure.
10 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has drawn a
11 line. It appears to be an arc in front of the two
12 circles closest to the driveway to the left of the front
13 door area.
14 BY MS. CLARK:
15 Q Was that a very bright light that came from
16 the porch light?
17 A Not that I remember. I mean, it was a normal
18 porch light.
19 Q Okay. So the porch light was lit, but the
20 house was dark downstairs.
21 A Correct.
22 Q Now, the lighting of the driveway, can you
23 tell us how much of the driveway was lit and how much
24 was in darkness from your vantage point, from where you
25 were in the limousine outside the gate on the Ashford
26 side?
27 A Well, this area here is pretty hard to see.
28 Anything back here was -- it was dark.
0025
01 Q Can you indicate that again? What part was
02 in darkness, from what point back?
03 A I'd say from about here back.
04 Q Are you indicating like from the corner of the
05 garage uppermost?
06 A Yeah.
07 Q In a line?
08 A From my visual point where I -- you know,
09 where I told you I can see on back.
10 Q I see.
11 Can I ask you to draw a straight line from the
12 area -- I guess you have indicated the corner of the
13 garage here back to indicate what was in darkness.
14 A From there back.
15 Q I am going to indicate for clarity with hash
16 marks to indicate that that is the area you say was
17 dark, all right?
18 Now, was there a light somewhere above the
19 garage?
20 A From what I can remember, I think there was --
21 there was a light, but it was very high up and it didn't
22 offer that much light. I think there was some trees
23 around there.
24 Q Okay. Now, when your boss called back at
25 10:55, during that phone call you said you saw the white
26 male come out on the Ashford side path.
27 A Correct.
28 Q And about what time was that?
0026
01 A In between -- 10:56, 10:57.
02 Q Can you describe that white male for us?
03 A Five foot eleven, 170 pounds. Blond hair,
04 medium length.
05 Q Was he holding anything?
06 A He had a flashlight.
07 Q How long did the conversation with your boss
08 last?
09 A Three minutes. I don't know.
10 Q Three minutes?
11 A Two minutes, three minutes. I don't know.
12 I can't remember.
13 Q Pardon?
14 A I can't remember.
15 Q It was not a long conversation.
16 A No. It was very brief.
17 Q So your estimate right now is about two, three
18 minutes?
19 A Yeah, I guess.
20 Q Okay. Did you see something else after you
21 saw that white male on the Ashford side path?
22 A Almost simultaneously as I saw him, I saw
23 somebody cross the driveway and go into the house from
24 this area, came out.
25 Q Can you please put an 'X' where you first saw
26 that person?
27 THE COURT: I think you already have an 'X' on the
28 diagram. Maybe you should make that an 'X' sub 1 or
0027
01 sub 2.
02 THE WITNESS: You want me to circle the 'X'?
03 BY MS. CLARK:
04 Q Was that person a male or female?
05 A I couldn't tell.
06 Q Can you describe the person?
07 A Six foot, 200 pounds.
08 Q Black or white?
09 A Black.
10 Q What were they wearing?
11 A Just seemed to be dark clothes.
12 Q Why don't you put 'P' for person where you put
13 that 'X' before.
14 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has done
15 so.
16 BY MS. CLARK:
17 Q So you saw someone, African American, six
18 foot, 200 pounds, wearing all dark clothing?
19 A From what I can recall, yes.
20 Q Could you tell if that person had anything in
21 their hands?
22 A No.
23 Q And was that person moving quickly or slowly?
24 A Walking pretty fast.
25 Q And where did that person go?
26 A Into the front door.
27 Q Of this residence?
28 A Yes.
0028
01 Q And when they walked -- when that person
02 walked into the front door, what happened next?
03 A A couple lights came on and I was still
04 waiting, you know, just waiting for this white male to
05 open the gate or -- he was just standing there. I kind
06 of recognized him, he waved at me.
07 Q So you saw this person walk into the front
08 door of the house, and did the lights come on downstairs
09 immediately?
10 A Yes. A light came on in the entryway.
11 Q As that person passed through the porch light
12 going into the front door, could you see who that person
13 was?
14 A No.
15 Q Could you tell at that point whether the
16 person was male or female?
17 A I couldn't tell.
18 Q Okay. Immediately after that person entered
19 the door and the lights went on downstairs, what
20 happened next?
21 A I waited a couple seconds to see if the white
22 male was going to come and open the gate, which he
23 didn't, so I got back out of the car and buzzed the gate
24 again. And at that time I got an answer.
25 Q Now, wait.
26 How long was it -- between the time you saw
27 the person enter the front door, the lights went on, you
28 buzzed the gate.
0029
01 How much time elapsed between the lights going
02 on and the person entering the front door and you
03 buzzing the gate?
04 A 15, 20 seconds.
05 Q So 15 or 20 seconds after the person entered
06 the house, you buzzed the gate.
07 A Yes.
08 Q What happened then?
09 A The intercom was answered by what I believe
10 was Mr. Simpson, and he told me that he overslept and he
11 just got out of the shower and that he'd be out -- he'd
12 be down in a minute.
13 Q And when you say you believe Mr. Simpson, is
14 that someone you see in court today, sir?
15 A Yes, it is.
16 Q Could you please point him out.
17 A He's right here.
18 Q And what's he wearing today?
19 MR. SHAPIRO: We'll stipulate that he's identified
20 Mr. Simpson.
21 MS. CLARK: Thank you.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 BY MS. CLARK:
24 Q So Mr. Simpson told you that he had overslept
25 and he just got out of the shower?
26 A Correct.
27 Q And he'd be down in a few minutes?
28 A Um-hum.
0030
01 Q Is that "yes"?
02 A Yes, yes.
03 Q The person that you saw walk into the house
04 after which you saw the lights go on, could you tell
05 where they came from, whether it was Rockingham or the
06 garage area?
07 A I couldn't tell what direction he was coming
08 from. I could tell you what direction he was walking.
09 Q Yeah. He was walking towards the front door?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Okay. Can you -- but you couldn't tell where
12 he was coming from?
13 A No.
14 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object to
15 the form of the question.
16 The witness has testified he couldn't tell
17 whether it was a male or female, and now Ms. Clark is
18 saying "You couldn't tell where he was coming from."
19 THE COURT: Sustained. Assumes a fact not in
20 evidence at this point.
21 MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you.
22 BY MS. CLARK:
23 Q You couldn't tell where that person was coming
24 from?
25 A Correct.
26 Q After you had the conversation with
27 Mr. Simpson, what happened next?
28 A I got back in the car and waited for the gate
0031
01 to be opened, which still took another 30 seconds or so.
02 Q Did you see where the male white was at that
03 point?
04 A He stood there pretty much the whole time.
05 Q Could you see whether he walked over to the
06 garage area at some point while you were waiting for him
07 to open the gate and talking to Mr. Simpson?
08 A Not that I can recall, no.
09 Q Was the male white and the other person you
10 saw walking into the front door dressed in all dark
11 clothing, were they ever on the driveway at the same
12 point in time?
13 A I don't remember that. I wouldn't --
14 Q You don't remember seeing him on the driveway
15 at the same point --
16 A No --
17 Q -- At the same time?
18 A No.
19 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, the witness has not had a
20 chance to complete his answer.
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 Please let the witness finish entirely before
23 you make an additional statement.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q Had you completed your answer?
26 A Yes.
27 Q At some point did the male white open the gate
28 for you?
0032
01 A Yes, he did.
02 Q How long had you been waiting at this --
03 strike that. Let me ask you this.
04 After you spoke to the defendant on the
05 intercom, how long after that did you have to wait for
06 this other man to open the gate?
07 A 30 seconds or more.
08 Q What happened next?
09 A He came towards me and opened the gate. I
10 drove in.
11 Q Can you tell us where you parked the car?
12 A I parked it right in front with the driver's
13 side window parallel to the front door.
14 Q What happened next?
15 A I popped the trunk and got out.
16 Q Did you notice whether anything was outside
17 the front door?
18 A Yes. There was a couple bags on the ground.
19 Q What kind?
20 A Just black duffel bags.
21 Q Did you notice whether there were any other
22 bags outside?
23 A There was another one laying back towards the
24 garage area, towards the back of the two cars that were
25 parked in there.
26 Q Were there cars parked in the driveway?
27 A From what I remember, yes.
28 Q Where were they?
0033
01 A There was two parked right here.
02 Q Do you remember what kind of cars they were?
03 A I know one was a Rolls Royce, and the other I
04 couldn't tell.
05 Q Which one was closest to the house?
06 A I can't remember that.
07 Q You can't remember whether it was the Rolls or
08 the other one?
09 A No.
10 Q Could you put two C's where you think the cars
11 were parked on the driveway.
12 Where in relationship to those two cars did
13 you see the other bag?
14 A It was back here about on the ground.
15 Q Was it on pavement or was it on grass, if you
16 know?
17 A From what I remember, it was on the driveway.
18 Q Could you put a 'B' where you think you saw
19 that other bag?
20 MS. CLARK: And for the record, the witness has
21 placed two C's where he indicated "car" on the driveway,
22 which would be by the gate that opens on Rockingham, and
23 he placed a 'B' just to the right of the second 'C'.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q Can you describe that bag at all?
26 A I couldn't describe it from where I was. It
27 just seemed to be another dark duffel bag.
28 Q After you popped the trunk and got out of the
0034
01 car, what happened next?
02 A The white male approached me.
03 Q Did he say something to you?
04 A Yeah. He asked me how long I was ringing the
05 bell.
06 Q Did you tell him?
07 A Yeah.
08 Q What did you tell him?
09 A About 15 minutes.
10 Q Did you have -- what else happened? Did you
11 continue to talk to him?
12 A At -- I talked to him for a couple minutes.
13 Q Do you remember him asking you about an
14 earthquake?
15 A Yeah. He asked if I felt one.
16 Q Had you?
17 A No.
18 Q Did you tell him that?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Did he ask you for anything?
21 A Well, later on he asked me for a flashlight.
22 Q I see.
23 After you finished talking to this person, did
24 you see what he did or where he went?
25 A He walked to the corner of the garage at one
26 point. He was calling the dog. I was petting the
27 dog.
28 Q Can you show us again where he walked to?
0035
01 A He was standing by the corner of the garage
02 here.
03 Q Would you please put a circle where you have
04 indicated to us earlier that you saw him after you had
05 the conversation.
06 MS. CLARK: And for the record, the witness has
07 done so, placing a circle at the southern most tip of
08 the garage.
09 BY MS. CLARK:
10 Q Now, did you see whether or not he went
11 around -- I'm going to indicate to you with my pen --
12 around to the southern most area south of the garage?
13 A I can't recall if he did or not.
14 Q You don't recall if he did or not?
15 A Yes.
16 Q But the last time you saw him was in the area
17 you've indicated with the circle?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What happened next? You saw him walk to that
20 portion of the garage. What happened next?
21 A He kept calling the dog and the dog didn't
22 want to leave, so he came back over.
23 Q What happened next?
24 A Well, at about that time Mr. Simpson came out
25 of the house.
26 Q And when the defendant came out of the house,
27 was he carrying anything?
28 A From what I remember, he had a like Gucci
0036
01 garment bag.
02 Q And what did he do with it?
03 A He sat it on the ground. I put it in the
04 trunk.
05 Q And what about the duffel bags?
06 A I picked those up and asked him where he'd
07 like them. He said inside the car.
08 Q Did you put them inside the car?
09 A Yes.
10 Q Can you tell us how much time passed between
11 the time you saw the person in dark clothing, six foot,
12 200 pounds, go into the house and the defendant come out
13 of the house?
14 A Five minutes or so. At the most five
15 minutes.
16 Q Now, this male white that you're referring to,
17 did he come back from the garage area?
18 A Yes, he did.
19 Q And did you see him have a conversation with
20 the defendant when he returned?
21 A He -- from what I can remember, he helped
22 him -- at some point they got the golf bags out of one
23 of the cars and brought that over to the car. I was
24 sitting at the back of the trunk most of the time.
25 Q What were you doing at the back of the trunk?
26 A Just waiting for him to bring out bags.
27 Q And your limo was pointing towards what would
28 ultimately be the Rockingham gate?
0037
01 A Yes.
02 Q Do you recall whether the male white had a
03 conversation with the defendant about an earthquake?
04 A I think he -- the defendant heard us talking
05 about it and as he was walking by getting his bags he
06 said, "oh, we had a earthquake?" Like a question.
07 Q So after all the bags were placed in the
08 trunk, where were you and the defendant and the male
09 white?
10 A At one point the defendant and the male white
11 walked into the entry of the house, right in the front
12 door area, and I was standing next to the back door
13 waiting to open it.
14 Q Before that, was there ever a point when the
15 three of you were standing behind the trunk as you were
16 arranging the bags in the trunk?
17 A I don't remember all at the same time. I
18 mean, it could have been.
19 Q The bag that you've indicated with the 'B' on
20 the diagram, what ever happened with that bag?
21 A We were -- we were standing -- Mr. Simpson and
22 I were towards the back of the limousine and the white
23 male offered to go get the bag, but Mr. Simpson said,
24 "no, that's okay, that's okay, let me get it."
25 Q The defendant said, "that's okay, let me get
26 it"?
27 A Um-hum.
28 Q Is that "yes"?
0038
01 A Yes.
02 Q And did he?
03 A Yeah. Yes.
04 Q Yes.
05 So the defendant went over and got that bag
06 that you've indicated with a 'B'.
07 A Yes.
08 Q And did he bring it back to the limousine?
09 A Yes, I think so.
10 Q Did that go into the trunk or into the inside
11 of the car?
12 A I don't remember that.
13 Q You didn't put it in?
14 A No.
15 Q The defendant did.
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, after all the bags were loaded, what
18 happened next?
19 A After all the bags were loaded, that's when, I
20 guess, the defendant went to go lock the house up or
21 whatever, and we got ready to take off. We had to go.
22 We were in a very big hurry.
23 Q You indicated that the defendant walked into
24 the house with the male white at some point?
25 A Yes.
26 Q And for how long did they go into the house?
27 A Not more than a minute.
28 Q Was that before or after all the bags were
0039
01 loaded?
02 A From what I can remember, after.
03 Q So all the bags were loaded and they stepped
04 into the house briefly and came back out?
05 A Yes.
06 Q And when they came back out, could you hear
07 what they were talking about?
08 A No.
09 Q Do you recall hearing a question about
10 searching the property?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What did you hear?
13 A As they came out and came towards the car, the
14 only thing I remember that I can hear was, "you go
15 around this way and I'll go around the other way."
16 Q Who said that?
17 A Mr. Simpson and the white male.
18 Q Who said, "you go one way or and I'll go the
19 other"?
20 A Mr. Simpson.
21 Q And what happened then?
22 A The white male walked towards the corner of
23 the garage where I indicated before, and I closed all
24 the trunks up and everything and I thought they were
25 going to walk around the property.
26 I was going to go with them just to, you know,
27 make sure nothing was back there, and at that time
28 Mr. Simpson said, "we gotta go."
0040
01 Q So the defendant said, "you go one way, I'll
02 go the other," the male white walked to the southern
03 edge of the garage that you've indicated with a
04 circle --
05 A Um-hum, yes.
06 Q -- and the defendant said, "let's go."
07 A Yes.
08 Q Did you see where the male white went, whether
09 he went to the lower southern most portion of the
10 property below the garage at that point, or were you
11 paying attention?
12 A I wasn't paying attention to that.
13 Q Then did you leave?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What gate did you leave from?
16 A The Rockingham gate.
17 Q And which way did you go on Rockingham as you
18 exited the gate?
19 A I made a left.
20 Q Did you look to see whether any cars were
21 parked on the right side as you faced the driveway of
22 Rockingham outside the residence?
23 A I didn't look to see.
24 Q You weren't looking at the parked cars?
25 A Yeah.
26 Q Were you looking to see if there was traffic?
27 A Yes, of course.
28 Q Can you tell us how many bags the defendant
0041
01 loaded into the car?
02 A Five, if I can recall.
03 Q Five.
04 You went left on Rockingham?
05 A Yes.
06 Q Can you tell us what the defendant was wearing
07 that night when you left for the airport?
08 A From what I can remember, some like stone wash
09 blue jeans and a white, like a polo shirt. White
10 collared shirt, golf shirt.
11 Q Do you remember what kind of shoes?
12 A No.
13 Q From what you could observe, sir, did he
14 appear to be upset or angry or nervous, the defendant?
15 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection; calls for speculation.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 BY MS. CLARK:
18 Q Can you describe the defendant's behavior that
19 night when you saw him at the point that you were
20 packing up the car with him and getting ready to leave.
21 A Well, I've never met him before so everything
22 seemed okay to me.
23 Q Nothing seemed unusual to you?
24 A No.
25 Q Did you notice any injuries to his hands?
26 A No, I didn't.
27 Q Did his hair appear to be wet?
28 A Not that I remember.
0042
01 Q What time was it when you left, exited the
02 Rockingham gate?
03 A I'd say about 11:15.
04 Q Did you have some conversation with the
05 defendant in the limousine as you drove to the airport?
06 A Not conversation, no.
07 Q Did he say something to you?
08 A He repeated two or three times that he was
09 hot. And I can't remember whether or not if he asked
10 where the air conditioning was, but I told him he could
11 turn it on.
12 Q And did he?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And how many times did he repeat that he was
15 hot?
16 MR. SHAPIRO: It's been asked and answered.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
18 THE WITNESS: I said, two or three times.
19 BY MS. CLARK:
20 Q Was the window up or down?
21 A At some point --
22 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Which window?
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q Was any window up -- excuse me.
26 Was any window down?
27 A From what I can remember, he had the back
28 passenger window down.
0043
01 Q One or both?
02 A Just one that I remember.
03 Q So the window was down and the air
04 conditioning was on?
05 A Yes.
06 Q Do you -- are there lights that can be turned
07 on in the back seat of that limousine?
08 A Yes, there is.
09 Q Were those lights on or off?
10 A They were off at the time. I think he used
11 them a couple times, turned it off and on.
12 Q Did he ask you how to use them?
13 A Yeah, he was looking for it, and by the time I
14 was about to give an answer, he found it.
15 Q So he asked you how to turn on the light?
16 A He said, "where's a light switch?"
17 Q And then did the light go on?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Could you see what he was doing at that time?
20 A No, I wasn't looking.
21 Q Were you able to see any body movements?
22 A To some point.
23 Q I'm sorry?
24 A To some point.
25 Q What did you see?
26 A Well, he had his bags on the floor and I just
27 figured he was just checking that he had everything.
28 Q What body movements could you see that led you
0044
01 to believe that?
02 A That he was bending down.
03 Q Could you see arms or shoulders moving?
04 A No.
05 Q You just saw him bending down?
06 A Yes.
07 Q What was the traffic like that night?
08 A It was very light.
09 Q Were you driving fast?
10 A Um, I wasn't doing the speed limit, I'll tell
11 you that.
12 Q Now, did you -- can you recount for us the
13 route that you took to the airport?
14 A I took Rockingham down to Sunset, made a left
15 onto Sunset and went down, which would be west, to the
16 405 freeway.
17 I wasn't too familiar with the area, so the
18 only thing that I could remember was to make a left off
19 of Sunset to get onto the freeway, and at that time he
20 told me I could make a right, but I missed the street.
21 Q When you say "he" told you, you're talking
22 about the defendant?
23 A Yes.
24 Q So he was helping you with directions to the
25 airport.
26 A At that point, yes.
27 Q Did he help you again later on --
28 A He just --
0045
01 Q -- on your way to the airport?
02 A He just asked me if I wanted -- what street I
03 was going to take, and he suggested I take Sepulveda,
04 probably would be the quickest.
05 Q And did you?
06 A Yes.
07 Q What time did you get to the airport?
08 A About 11:35.
09 Q And when you got to the airport, what did you
10 do?
11 A Parked the car, popped the trunk and started
12 to help him get his bags out. I grabbed the Gucci bag
13 first, and at that time he asked me to go get one of the
14 sky caps.
15 Q So did you leave the Gucci bag there and go
16 get the sky cap?
17 A Yeah. I sat it down on the ground and I went
18 to go retrieve one, and everybody was busy, so I just
19 grabbed a luggage cart.
20 Q And what did you do with that luggage cart?
21 A I came back over to the car and he sat his
22 golf clubs on there and the Gucci bag.
23 Q And what about the two duffel bags and the
24 other bag that you indicate on the diagram with
25 a 'B'? Where did those go?
26 A He carried them.
27 Q The defendant carried them?
28 A Yeah.
0046
01 MS. CLARK: Nothing further.
02 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, do you wish to
03 cross-examine at this time?
04 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes. Thank you very much,
05 Your Honor.
06
07 CROSS-EXAMINATION
08
09 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
10 Q Good morning, Mr. Park.
11 A Good morning.
12 Q Mr. Park, you understand the serious
13 nature --
14 MS. CLARK: Objection; Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: The legal grounds for your objection?
16 MS. CLARK: It's argumentative.
17 THE COURT: I haven't yet even heard the entire
18 question.
19 Do you want to finish your question,
20 Mr. Shapiro?
21 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, I would like to. Thank you.
22 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
23 Q Do you understand the serious nature for which
24 you are testifying here today?
25 MS. CLARK: Objection, Your Honor.
26 THE COURT: And your objection is it's
27 argumentative?
28 MS. CLARK: Yes, Your Honor.
0047
1 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
MS. CLARK: WHY WOULD MR. SHAPIRO ASSUME THAT HE
2 DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE SERIOUSNESS OF THE CHARGES?
THERE HAS BEEN NO INDICATION OF THAT.
3 THE COURT: YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION, SIR.
THE WITNESS: I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN.
4 THE SERIOUSNESS OF ME TESTIFYING?
BY MR. SHAPIRO:
5 Q DO YOU KNOW WHAT THIS MATTER CONCERNS THAT YOU
ARE TESTIFYING TO?
6 A YES.
Q WHAT DOES IT CONCERN?
7 A IT CONCERNS A MURDER TRIAL.
Q AND THEREFORE, YOU WANT TO BE VERY CAREFUL WITH
8 YOUR TESTIMONY TO MAKE SURE YOU DON'T MAKE ANY ERRORS; IS THAT
CORRECT?
9 A YES.
Q AND YOU WANT TO BE VERY SURE, EVERY TIME YOU
10 TESTIFY UNDER OATH, THAT YOU DO NOT MAKE ANY ERRORS; IS THAT
CORRECT?
11 MS. CLARK: SAME OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. NO OTHER
WITNESS HAS BEEN SUBJECTED TO THIS KIND OF INTIMIDATION. THIS
12 IS HIGHLY INAPPROPRIATE. THERE HAS BEEN NOTHING TO INDICATE
THIS WITNESS DOES NOT TAKE HIS OATH VERY SERIOUSLY AND IS
13 TESTIFYING AS ACCURATELY AS HE CAN.
THE COURT: THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED.
14 MR. SHAPIRO: YOU MAY ANSWER THE QUESTION, SIR.
THE WITNESS: CAN YOU REPEAT IT?
15 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
Q YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN YOU TESTIFY UNDER OATH,
16 THAT THERE IS AN OBLIGATION TO TELL THE TRUTH?
A YES.
17 Q AND HAVE YOU DONE SO?
A YES.
18 Q HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU TESTIFIED UNDER OATH
REGARDING THE SUBJECT MATTER THAT YOU TESTIFIED HERE TODAY TO?
19 A ONCE.
Q ONCE BEFORE OR ONLY ONCE?
20 A I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OF THE QUESTION.
Q HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU TESTIFIED UNDER OATH TO
21 THE SUBJECT MATTER THAT YOU HAVE TESTIFIED TO IN COURT TODAY?
A ONE TIME.
22 Q AND THAT WAS WHEN?
A WITH THE GRAND JURY.
23 Q AND YOU ALSO TESTIFIED TODAY?
A YES.
24 Q THAT WOULD BE TWICE.
A OKAY.
25 Q IS THAT CORRECT?
A CORRECT.
26 Q OKAY.
AND BEFORE THE GRAND JURY, YOU WERE UNDER OATH,
27 WERE YOU NOT?
A YES, I WAS.
28 Q THAT WAS ON JUNE 21, ABOUT A WEEK AGO; IS THAT
0048
1 CORRECT?
A CORRECT.
2 Q AND WHEN YOU TESTIFIED THERE, WAS YOUR MEMORY AS
TO THE EVENTS THAT YOU SAW AT THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE BETTER
3 THAN IT WAS TODAY?
A I WOULD SAY IT IS THE SAME.
4 Q DID YOU TESTIFY ON PAGE 257, LINE 11 IN REGARD TO
THE INDIVIDUAL YOU DESCRIBED AS A MALE OR FEMALE TODAY, "AND
5 JUST SECONDS AFTER THAT, I SAW A BLACK MALE, SIX FOOT ONE, 100
AND -- 200 POUNDS COME FROM THE AREA THAT I SAW HIM FROM, WAS
6 ABOUT A" -- DID YOU GIVE THAT TESTIMONY TO THE GRAND JURY,
SIR?
7 A IF IT IS THERE, I DID.
Q WELL, DO YOU RECALL GIVING THAT TESTIMONY TO THE
8 GRAND JURY?
A YES, I DO.
9 Q AND WAS THAT DISCREPANCY CALLED TO YOUR ATTENTION
BY ANYONE BEFORE YOU TESTIFIED TODAY?
10 A I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT --
Q HAS ANYONE POINTED OUT TO YOU BEFORE YOU
11 TESTIFIED THAT BEFORE THE GRAND JURY YOU SAID IT WAS A MALE
BLACK, AND THAT TODAY YOU GAVE TESTIMONY THAT IT WAS EITHER A
12 MALE OR FEMALE; YOU COULDN'T TELL WHICH?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. NOBODY HAS HAD A
13 CHANCE TO POINT ANYTHING OUT TO HIM. HE ONLY JUST SAID IT
TODAY.
14 THE COURT: THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: WELL, THE ONLY THING THAT I CAN SAY HERE
15 IS THAT THE PERSON THAT I DESCRIBED IS SIX -- SIX FOOT, 200
POUNDS. IT JUST SEEMS TO BE A PRETTY BIG FEMALE.
16 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
Q THAT WASN'T MY QUESTION, SIR.
17 DID ANYONE DISCUSS WITH YOU THE FACT THAT YOU
MIGHT HAVE, ON ANOTHER OCCASION, SAID IT WAS EITHER A MALE OR
18 A FEMALE; YOU COULDN'T TELL WHICH?
A YES.
19 Q WHO POINTED THAT OUT TO YOU?
A WHO POINTED WHAT OUT?
20 Q YOU TESTIFIED AT THE GRAND JURY THAT IT WAS A
MALE BLACK; IS THAT CORRECT?
21 A YES.
Q YOU TESTIFIED HERE TODAY THAT IT WAS A MALE OR
22 FEMALE; YOU COULDN'T TELL WHICH; IS THAT CORRECT?
A YES.
23 Q PRIOR TO YOUR TESTIMONY TODAY, HAS ANYONE POINTED
OUT THAT THERE MAY BE A DISCREPANCY IN THE TESTIMONY THAT YOU
24 GAVE AT THE GRAND JURY AND THE TESTIMONY THAT YOU WERE GOING
TO GIVE TODAY?
25 A NO.
Q DID YOU EVER DESCRIBE THE PERSON AS SIX FEET, 180
26 POUNDS?
A NOT THAT I REMEMBER.
27 Q DID YOU EVER DESCRIBE THE OTHER INDIVIDUAL AS
FIVE TEN, 160 POUNDS?
28 A I COULD HAVE.
0049
1 Q DID YOU EVER DESCRIBE MR. SIMPSON AS COMING OUT
OF THE HOUSE WEARING A BLACK OVERCOAT?
2 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. VAGUE AS TO TIME.
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
3 THE WITNESS: YES, I DID.
THE COURT: YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.
4 THE WITNESS: I REMEMBER HIM WEARING SOME KIND OF A
COAT.
5 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
Q DID YOU EVER TELL ANYONE THAT THE PERSON WHO CAME
6 OUT WAS WEARING AN OVERCOAT, A BLACK OVERCOAT?
A YES, I DID.
7 Q WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY THAT WHEN MISS CLARK ASKED YOU
HOW THE MAN WAS DRESSED THIS MORNING?
8 A I GUESS I JUST DIDN'T GIVE FULL DETAIL.
Q DID YOU SAY THAT TO THE GRAND JURY, THAT THE MAN
9 WAS WEARING AN OVERCOAT?
A I DON'T REMEMBER.
10 Q DID YOU READ YOUR GRAND JURY TESTIMONY BEFORE YOU
TESTIFIED HERE?
11 A NO, I DIDN'T. NO, I DIDN'T.
Q WAS IT SHOWN TO YOU BY ANYONE?
12 A NO, IT WASN'T.
Q DID YOU DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY BEFORE YOU
13 TESTIFIED HERE TODAY WITH ANYONE?
A YES. MY MOM.
14 Q OTHER THAN YOUR MOTHER, DID YOU DISCUSS IT WITH
ANYONE ELSE?
15 A MY BOSS.
Q OTHER THAN -- WHO IS YOUR BOSS?
16 A DALE ST. JOHN OF TOWN AND COUNTRY LIMO.
Q WHEN DID YOU DISCUSS IT WITH HIM?
17 A DAYS AFTER.
Q WHEN DID YOU DISCUSS IT WITH YOUR MOTHER?
18 A JUST A FEW DAYS AFTER.
Q HAVE YOU DISCUSSED IT WITH ANYONE ELSE?
19 A THE POLICE.
Q HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU DISCUSS IT WITH THE
20 POLICE?
A I WAS INTERVIEWED ONCE, BUT THERE WAS PHONE CALLS
21 FOR OTHER QUESTIONS HERE AND THERE.
Q DID YOU RECEIVE THE PHONE CALLS FIRST OR THE
22 INTERVIEW FIRST?
A WELL, THEY CALLED ME AND JUST ASKED ME TO COME
23 OUT.
Q SO YOU DIDN'T DISCUSS ANYTHING ON THE PHONE?
24 A NO.
Q DO YOU RECALL WHAT DATE YOU WENT DOWN?
25 A THE 15TH OF --
Q WHERE DID YOU GO?
26 A TO THE HARBOR DISTRICT, THE POLICE DEPARTMENT
THERE IN SAN PEDRO.
27 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE THERE?
A 9:30, 9:00 O'CLOCK.
28 Q TO WHOM DID YOU SPEAK?
0050
1 A TO PAUL TIPPIN AND BRIAN CARR.
Q HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK WITH THEM?
2 A TWO HOURS.
Q WAS THAT INTERVIEW TAPE RECORDED?
3 A NOT THAT I KNOW OF.
Q DID THEY HAVE YOU -- DID THEY TAKE NOTES OF YOUR
4 CONVERSATION?
A YES, THEY DID.
5 Q DID THEY REDUCE THOSE NOTES TO A REPORT THAT YOU
KNOW OF?
6 A NO.
Q DID THEY EVER HAVE YOU SIGN A STATEMENT OR A
7 REPORT?
A NO.
8 Q DID YOU MEET WITH THEM AGAIN THAT DAY?
A NO, I DIDN'T.
9 Q DID YOU MEET WITH ANY OTHER DETECTIVES THAT DAY?
A NO.
10 Q IS THAT THE ONLY TIME YOU HAVE EVER MET WITH
DETECTIVES?
11 A I MET THEM AFTER THAT.
Q WHEN DID YOU MEET AFTER THAT?
12 A THEY WERE AT THE GRAND JURY.
Q DID THEY TAKE YOUR STATEMENT AT THE GRAND JURY?
13 A NO, THEY DIDN'T.
Q SO YOU JUST SAW THEM CASUALLY AT THE GRAND JURY?
14 A YES.
Q SO AS FAR AS FORMAL STATEMENT INTERVIEWS TO ANY
15 LAW-ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WHATSOEVER, YOU HAVE ONLY GIVEN ONE,
AND THAT WAS ON THE 15TH?
16 A YES.
Q FOR TWO HOURS?
17 A ABOUT.
Q WAS IT BEFORE OR AFTER THAT THAT YOU TALKED TO
18 YOUR MOTHER?
A IT WAS BEFORE.
19 Q HOW MUCH BEFORE?
A TUESDAY.
20 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU TALK TO YOUR MOTHER?
A AFTER I -- SHE WAS THERE WHEN I WAS TALKING OVER
21 THE PHONE WITH MR. SIMPSON'S LAWYERS.
Q WHEN DID YOU TALK TO MR. SIMPSON'S LAWYERS?
22 A THE 14TH, I BELIEVE.
Q AND WAS THAT IN THE EVENING?
23 A IT WAS TOWARDS THE EVENING, YES.
Q DID YOU PLACE THE PHONE CALL?
24 A YES. I CALLED THEM.
Q AND DID YOU CALL AN OFFICE KNOWN AS LEROY TAFT'S
25 OFFICE?
A I DON'T KNOW WHAT OFFICE IT WAS. I JUST CALLED
26 THE PHONE NUMBER.
Q DID YOU SPEAK TO TWO PEOPLE WHO IDENTIFIED
27 THEMSELVES AS LAWYERS THERE?
A YES.
28 Q WAS ONE MR. LEROY TAFT OR IDENTIFYING HIMSELF AS
0051
1 LEROY TAFT?
A LEROY TAFT?
2 Q SKIP TAFT?
A THAT RINGS A BELL.
3 Q DID THE OTHER IDENTIFY HIMSELF AS ROBERT SHAPIRO?
A I THINK IT WAS JUST BOB.
4 Q AND WAS THIS ON A SPEAKER PHONE?
A YES, IT WAS.
5 Q AND AT THIS TIME YOUR MOTHER WAS LISTENING?
A SHE WAS SITTING NEXT TO ME, YES.
6 Q AND THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU GAVE ANY STATEMENT
TO ANYONE REGARDING THIS INCIDENT; IS THAT CORRECT?
7 A YES.
Q YES?
8 A YES.
Q AND HOW LONG WAS THAT STATEMENT?
9 A HALF AN HOUR. I DON'T KNOW.
Q HAVE YOU EVER HEARD ANY RECORDING OF THAT
10 STATEMENT?
A HAVE I?
11 Q YES.
A YES, I HAVE.
12 Q WHEN DID YOU HEAR THAT?
A LAST FRIDAY.
13 Q WHERE DID YOU HEAR THAT?
A UPSTAIRS.
14 Q WHO PLAYED IT FOR YOU?
A THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY.
15 Q AND WAS IT AT THAT TIME THAT YOU REALIZED YOU
MADE THE STATEMENT AND COULDN'T TELL WHETHER IT WAS A MALE OR
16 A FEMALE?
A YES. I HEARD THAT.
17 Q AND DID ANYBODY POINT OUT AT THAT POINT IN TIME
THAT WHEN YOU TOLD THE GRAND JURY, YOU SAID IT WAS A MALE?
18 A NO.
Q DID ANYONE ASK YOU IF THERE WERE ANY
19 DISCREPANCIES IN YOUR TESTIMONY OR IN YOUR STATEMENT THAT YOU
GAVE TO MYSELF AND MR. TAFT?
20 A NO.
Q AT THAT TIME DID YOU TELL MR. TAFT AND MYSELF
21 THAT YOU COULDN'T TELL WHETHER OR NOT THAT PERSON COULD HAVE
BEEN O.J. SIMPSON?
22 A REPEAT THAT.
Q DID YOU TELL MR. TAFT OR MYSELF THAT DURING THE
23 CONVERSATION ON THE 14TH THAT THE PERSON THAT WALKED INTO THE
HOUSE IN DARK CLOTHING WAS SOMEBODY; YOU COULDN'T TELL WHETHER
24 OR NOT IT WAS O.J. SIMPSON?
A YES.
25 Q AND DID YOU TELL US THAT EVENING THAT AFTER YOU
BUZZED THE INTERCOM, ABOUT TWO MINUTES LATER, MR. SIMPSON CAME
26 ON?
A I DON'T RECALL.
27 Q AND THAT YOU COULD RECOGNIZE MR. SIMPSON'S VOICE?
A YES, I COULD RECOGNIZE HIS VOICE.
28 Q AND YOU ASKED HIM AT THAT TIME -- YOU TOLD HIM AT
0052
1 THAT TIME THAT YOU WERE THERE, AND HE SAID, "I HAVE BEEN HERE
FOR A FEW MINUTES"?
2 A NO.
Q HE NEVER SAID THAT?
3 A NO.
Q DID YOU EVER SAY THAT, "I HAVE BEEN HERE FOR A
4 FEW MINUTES"?
A I TOLD THE WHITE MALE AT THE HOME.
5 Q IT WAS AT THAT TIME THAT WE ASKED YOU HOW
MR. SIMPSON WAS DRESSED WHEN HE CAME OUT, AND YOU SAID, "HE
6 WAS WEARING BLUE JEANS, A WHITE SHIRT AND ANOTHER KIND OF
OVERCOAT, A BLACK OVERCOAT." DO YOU RECALL THAT?
7 A YES.
Q WAS THAT A HEAVY OVERCOAT?
8 A NO.
Q DID YOU KNOW HE WAS GOING TO CHICAGO?
9 A YES.
Q DID YOU KNOW WHAT THE WEATHER WAS LIKE IN
10 CHICAGO?
A I HAVE NO IDEA.
11 Q HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE WEIGHT OF THE OVERCOAT
WAS?
12 A THE WEIGHT?
Q YES.
13 A IT JUST LOOKED THIN.
Q DID YOU EVER CARRY IT?
14 A NO.
Q DID YOU EVER TRY IT ON?
15 A NO.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHAT MATERIAL IT WAS MADE OF?
16 A I COULDN'T TELL YOU.
Q DO YOU KNOW IF IT HAD A LINING?
17 A NO.
Q DID YOU TELL US THAT WHEN YOU PULLED IN, HE
18 ALREADY HAD A COUPLE OF BAGS ON THE PORCH?
A YES.
19 Q THAT HE WENT OVER TO HIS CAR AND GOT ANOTHER BAG?
A YES.
20 Q DID YOU SEE MR. SIMPSON WALK IN AND OUT OF THE
HOUSE AT ALL?
21 A HE WALKED IN A COUPLE TIMES.
Q HOW MANY TIMES?
22 A TWO OR THREE.
Q OTHER THAN CARRYING HIS BAGS OR LUGGAGE OUT, DID
23 YOU SEE HIM CARRYING ANYTHING ELSE OUT OF THE HOUSE?
A NO.
24 Q NOW, DID YOU PUT MR. SIMPSON'S BAGS IN THE TRUNK?
A SOME.
25 Q HOW MANY DID YOU PUT IN?
A FROM WHAT I CAN REMEMBER, THREE.
26 Q WHAT ABOUT THE GOLF BAG, WHERE DID THE GOLF BAG
END UP?
27 A IN THE TRUNK.
Q WHO PUT IT THERE?
28 A I CAN'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS THE WHITE MALE OR
0053
1 MR. SIMPSON.
Q NOW, WHEN I ASKED YOU ABOUT THE PERSON THAT WAS
2 COMING IN AND OUT OF THE HOUSE, DID YOU SAY THE FOLLOWING: "I
AM GOING TO SAY HE WAS A GOOD SIX-FOOT ONE, 180 POUNDS"? DID
3 YOU SAY THAT?
A I COULD HAVE.
4 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU TELL US YOU LEFT MR. SIMPSON'S
HOUSE FOR THE AIRPORT?
5 A THE TIME I LEFT?
Q YES.
6 A 11:15.
Q IS THAT WHAT YOU TOLD US?
7 A I CAN'T REMEMBER.
Q COULD YOU HAVE TOLD US A DIFFERENT TIME?
8 A COULD HAVE. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN RIGHT AROUND
THERE.
9 Q WOULD IT HAVE BEEN EARLIER OR LATER?
A IT COULD HAVE BEEN EITHER ONE. I DON'T KNOW.
10 Q YOU ARE NOT SURE OF THESE TIMES, ARE YOU?
A I DON'T KNOW WHAT I TOLD YOU. I KNOW WHAT -- I
11 KNOW WHAT TIME I LEFT. IT WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE BEEN RIGHT
AROUND 11:15, TEN AFTER 11:00.
12 Q YOU WOULDN'T LIE TO ME WHEN I TALK TO YOU, WOULD
YOU?
13 A NO.
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. OBJECTION. THAT WAS
14 ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
15 BY MR. SHAPIRO:
Q WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE AT THE AIRPORT?
16 A ABOUT 11:35.
Q NOW, BY JUDGING THESE TIMES, WHEN DID THE TIMES
17 BECOME IMPORTANT TO YOU?
A WHEN DID THEY BECOME IMPORTANT? THEY WEREN'T
18 IMPORTANT TO ME THAT NIGHT. BUT I JUST WAS ON KIND OF ON A
SCHEDULE, SO I DO REMEMBER TIMES.
19 Q WHAT WERE YOU USING TO GAUGE THE TIME?
A MY WATCH.
20 Q WHAT KIND OF WATCH DO YOU WEAR?
A A WRISTWATCH.
21 Q WELL, CAN YOU DESCRIBE A LITTLE BETTER THAN THAT?
A IT IS --
22 Q IS IT AN AUTOMATIC WATCH, A WINDUP WATCH?
A IT HAS GOT A BATTERY. IT IS NOT WINDUP. IT HAS
23 GOT HANDS ON IT.
THE COURT: EXCUSE ME.
24 ARE YOU WEARING THE WATCH NOW? YOU WERE LOOKING
AT YOUR WRIST.
25 THE WITNESS: YES.
THE COURT: DO YOU WANT TO JUST HOLD THAT UP MAYBE.
26 THE WITNESS: (INDICATING)
THE COURT: HE IS WEARING ON THE LEFT WRIST A
27 WRISTWATCH OF SOME KIND.
BY MR. SHAPIRO:
28 Q WHEN IS THE LAST TIME YOU CHECKED THAT WATCH WITH
0054
1 SOME OFFICIAL TIME?
A I LOOK AT CLOCKS ALL THE TIME. IT SEEMS TO BE
2 OKAY TO ME.
Q SAME TIME AS IN THE COURTROOM NOW?
3 A YES.
Q WHAT TIME DOES YOUR CLOCK SHOW NOW?
4 A IT SAYS ABOUT SIXTEEN AFTER 10:00.
Q DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN THE LAST TIME YOU SET THAT
5 WATCH WAS?
A LAST TIME I SET IT?
6 Q YES.
A I JUST SET IT ON THE 1ST.
7 Q BECAUSE YOU CHANGED THE DATES, RIGHT?
A YES.
8 Q AND YOU DON'T RECALL WHEN YOU SET IT PRIOR TO
THAT, DO YOU?
9 A NO.
Q YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR TOWN
10 AND COUNTRY LIMOUSINE FOR THE LAST TWO AND A HALF MONTHS?
A TWO AND A HALF, THREE MONTHS, YES.
11 Q DID YOU TELL US YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING THERE FOR
FIVE MONTHS?
12 A NOT THAT I REMEMBER. I MIGHT HAVE SAID I HAVE
BEEN DRIVING LIMOS FOR FIVE MONTHS.
13 Q AND IS THAT THE CASE?
A YES.
14 Q DO YOU WORK FOR ANY OTHER LIMOUSINE COMPANY?
A I DIDN'T WORK FOR A COMPANY; I JUST WORK FOR A
15 PRIVATE OWNER.
Q HOW LONG HAVE YOU WORKED FOR THAT PERSON?
16 A IT WAS ABOUT TWO MONTHS, TWO AND A HALF MONTHS.
Q AND THEN YOU GOT THE JOB WITH TOWN AND COUNTRY?
17 A YES.
Q IS THAT A FULL TIME -- WAS THAT A FULL-TIME JOB
18 AT THE TIME?
A NO. NO.
19 Q AND DID YOU HAVE ANY SCHEDULED HOURS THAT YOU
WORKED?
20 A NO.
Q WHEN DID YOU FIRST RECEIVE NOTIFICATION THAT YOU
21 WERE GOING TO HAVE A PICK UP AT O.J. SIMPSON'S HOUSE?
A IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN SOMETIME IN THE
22 MORNING, 10:00, 11:00, 11:00.
Q WHERE DID YOU RECEIVE THAT NOTIFICATION?
23 A FROM MY BOSS. HE LIVES ACROSS THE STREET.
Q DID HE JUST WALK OVER, OR DID HE CALL YOU?
24 A I CAN'T REMEMBER IF HE CAME OVER OR CALLED.
Q AND WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
25 A HE TOLD ME I HAD A PICK UP AT 7:00 O'CLOCK
EARLIER IN THE NIGHT AT LAX, PICKING UP A COUPLE CLIENTS AND
26 TAKING THEM TO BEVERLY HILLS. AND THEN HE TOLD ME I HAD A
PICK UP AT 10:45 AT MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE.
27 Q WHERE DID YOU START FOR YOUR 7:00 O'CLOCK PICK UP
AT LAX?
28 A WHERE DID I START?
0055
1 Q WHERE DID YOU LEAVE FROM?
A FROM HIS HOUSE IN TORRANCE.
2 Q SO HE HAS HIS CARS AT HIS HOUSE?
A YES.
3 Q AND WHAT TYPE OF VEHICLE WERE YOU DRIVING?
A A LINCOLN TOWN CAR.
4 Q WHAT IS THE SIZE OF THAT CAR?
A IT IS A STRETCH. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE LENGTH OF
5 IT IS.
Q DO YOU KNOW IF STRETCHES COME IN DIFFERENT
6 LENGTHS?
A YES, THEY DO.
7 Q YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE LENGTH THIS CAR WAS?
A NO.
8 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE FOR THE AIRPORT FOR THAT
PICK UP?
9 A TO THE AIRPORT?
Q YES.
10 A 6:00 -- WE GOT A PHONE CALL WHICH WE FOUND OUT
THE PLANE WAS COMING IN EARLY. THE PICK UP WAS AT
11 7:00 O'CLOCK, AND WE FOUND OUT THEY WERE COMING IN AT 6:30.
SO I LEFT ABOUT 6:00 O'CLOCK.
12 Q WHAT AIRLINES DID YOU GO TO, FOR THE PICK UP?
A IT WAS BRITISH AIRWAYS OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
13 Q OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT? YOU ARE NOT SURE?
A I AM NOT POSITIVE.
14 Q WHAT WAS THE FLIGHT NUMBER?
A I DON'T REMEMBER THIS STUFF.
15 Q WHAT WAS THE NAME OF THE PARTIES YOU WERE PICKING
UP?
16 A IT WAS BILL TAYLOR AND ANOTHER PERSON.
Q WHAT WAS THE OTHER PERSON'S NAME?
17 A KEITH SOMETHING.
Q YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE LAST NAME OF KEITH?
18 A NO. HE WASN'T IMPORTANT. HE WAS JUST WITH
BILL TAYLOR.
19 Q WHAT TIME -- DID YOU PICK UP THEIR LUGGAGE AT THE
AIRPORT?
20 A NO, THEY JUST CARRIED IT UP. IT WAS A SHORT --
Q THEY HAD CARRY ON?
21 A YES.
Q HOW MANY BAGS DID EACH OF THEM HAVE?
22 A BILL TAYLOR HAD TWO, AND THE OTHER GUY HAD ONE.
Q WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THOSE BAGS PLEASE?
23 A I DON'T KNOW. I WASN'T LOOKING AT THEM. I NEVER
HANDLED THEM.
24 Q WHERE DID YOU FIRST SEE THEM?
A THE BAGS OR HIM? THE PEOPLE?
25 Q BOTH.
A GETTING OFF THE FLIGHT.
26 Q WERE YOU AT THE --
A I WAS AT THE GATE.
27 Q AT THE GATE. DID YOU HAVE A SIGN UP FOR THEIR
NAMES?
28 A YES, I DID.
0056
1 Q AND THE PEOPLE CAME UP TO YOU?
A YES.
2 Q SO YOU SAW THEM CARRYING BAGS?
A YES.
3 Q WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE BAGS THEY WERE CARRYING?
MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED.
4 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
BY MR. SHAPIRO:
5 Q THEY CARRIED THEIR OWN BAGS TO YOUR LIMOUSINE?
A I WASN'T DRIVING THE LIMOUSINE AT THAT TIME.
6 Q WHO WAS DRIVING THE LIMOUSINE?
A I WAS IN A -- I HAD TO MAKE A SWITCH. I WAS IN A
7 TOWN CAR, JUST A REGULAR TOWN CAR.
Q WHAT KIND OF CAR WERE YOU DRIVING?
8 A LINCOLN TOWN CAR.
Q WHAT COLOR?
9 A WHITE.
Q AND WHERE DID YOU PUT THE BAGS THAT THESE TWO
10 GENTLEMEN HAD?
A I POPPED THE TRUNK, AND THEY PUT THEM IN THERE.
11 Q THEY PUT THEM IN?
A YES.
12 Q WHERE DID YOU TAKE THEM?
A TO THE PENISULA HOTEL.
13 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE AT THE PENISULA?
A THE PLANE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN AT 6:30. IT
14 DIDN'T ARRIVE UNTIL ABOUT 6:45. I DROPPED THEM OFF ABOUT
7:30.
15 Q ARE YOU SURE OF THAT TIME?
A AROUND THERE.
16 Q ARE YOU AS SURE OF THOSE TIMES AS YOU ARE OF THE
TIMES THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN US FOR MR. SIMPSON?
17 A IF NOT, I KNOW THESE TIMES A LITTLE BIT BETTER.
Q WHY DO YOU KNOW THESE TIMES BETTER?
18 A BECAUSE JUST THE WAY THAT EVERYTHING HAPPENED, AS
I CALLED MY BOSS, WHAT TIME THE PICK UP WAS, WHAT TIME HE HAD
19 TO BE AT THE AIRPORT, WHAT TIME WE LEFT, WHAT TIME WE ARRIVED.
IT WAS JUST MORE CLEAR TO ME WITH THE PHONE CALLS.
20 Q WELL, YOU HAD PHONE CALLS WITH THIS FLIGHT. YOU
HAD NOTIFICATION THE FLIGHT WAS LATE?
21 A AT HOME -- WE WERE STILL AT HOME. I WAS TALKING
TO HIM PERSONALLY.
22 Q I SEE.
AFTER YOU DROPPED OFF THESE TWO GENTLEMEN AT THE
23 PENISULA HOTEL, WHERE DID YOU GO?
A I CAME BACK.
24 Q YOU CAME BACK WHERE?
A I CAME BACK HOME.
25 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU GET HOME?
A 8:00 O'CLOCK OR SO.
26 Q 8:00 O'CLOCK OR SO? DID YOU JUDGE THE TIME BY
ANYTHING?
27 A JUST FROM WHEN I LEFT THE PENISULA TO THE
STANDARD TIME IT WOULD TAKE ME TO GET HOME.
28 Q WHERE DO YOU LIVE? I DON'T NEED YOUR EXACT
0057
1 ADDRESS, BUT GIVE ME CROSS STREETS, IF YOU MIGHT.
A TORRANCE.
2 182ND AND PRAIRIE.
Q AND WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU GOT HOME AT
3 8:00 O'CLOCK?
A WELL, I HAD A SNACK AND CHANGED CARS AND GOT
4 READY TO GO.
Q WHERE DID YOU CHANGE CARS?
5 A AT HIS HOUSE.
Q SO YOU WENT BACK TO YOUR BOSS' HOUSE ACROSS THE
6 STREET?
A YES.
7 Q WHAT TIME DID YOU GO THERE?
A IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN 9:00 O'CLOCK OR SO. JUST TO
8 TALK TO HIM AND MAKE SURE THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS STILL GOING.
Q WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
9 A HE SAID, YES, SO FAR AS HE KNOWS THAT THE FLIGHT
IS STILL ON, HIS PICK UP.
10 Q HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU SPEND WITH YOUR BOSS AT HIS
HOUSE AT 9:00 O'CLOCK?
11 A WELL, I DON'T REMEMBER. JUST LIKE A FEW MINUTES.
Q AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?
12 A WENT BACK HOME.
Q HOW LONG DID YOU STAY AT HOME?
13 A UNTIL ABOUT 9:45.
Q WHAT DID YOU DO AT THAT TIME?
14 A LEFT.
Q HOW WERE YOU DRESSED WHEN YOU LEFT?
15 A JUST LIKE THIS BUT WITH A COAT.
Q SAME EXACT CLOTHES?
16 A YES.
Q PARDON?
17 A YES.
Q SAME TIE, SAME SHIRT, SAME PANTS?
18 A YES.
Q SAME SHOES, SAME SOCKS?
19 A YES.
Q AND 9:45 YOU LEAVE YOUR HOUSE NOW TO GO TO
20 ROCKINGHAM?
A YES.
21 Q WERE YOU GIVEN DIRECTIONS TO ROCKINGHAM BY
ANYBODY?
22 A BY MY BOSS, YES.
Q WHAT WERE THE DIRECTIONS HE GAVE YOU?
23 A TO GO UP THE 405 UNTIL SUNSET AND MAKE A LEFT ON
SUNSET GOING WEST. MAKE A RIGHT ON ROCKINGHAM.
24 Q AND THEN JUST GO TO THE ADDRESS?
A YES.
25 Q DID HE GIVE YOU ANY OTHER SPECIFIC INFORMATION AS
TO WHAT TO HAVE OR WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU WERE PICKING UP
26 MR. SIMPSON?
A NOT THAT I RECALL, NO.
27 Q ARE THERE SOME PEOPLE THAT LIKE BEVERAGES IN THE
CAR, NEWSPAPERS, THINGS LIKE THAT, IN THE LIMOUSINE?
28 A FOR SOME PEOPLE, BUT HE DIDN'T GIVE ME ANY
0058
1 SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS.
Q IT WAS JUST, "PICK HIM UP AND TAKE HIM TO THE
2 AIRPORT"?
A YES.
3 Q DID HE TELL YOU WHAT FLIGHT HE WAS GOING ON?
A AMERICAN AIRLINES. THAT WAS JUST WHERE TO DROP
4 HIM OFF.
Q AND HE GAVE YOU THAT INFORMATION EARLIER IN THE
5 MORNING, DIDN'T HE?
A YES.
6 Q AND DID HE TELL YOU WHAT TIME THE FLIGHT WAS
LEAVING?
7 A HE JUST SAID HE HAD TO BE AT THE AIRPORT AT THE
11:45 FLIGHT.
8 Q HE GAVE YOU THE FLIGHT, THE FLIGHT NUMBER AND THE
INFORMATION THAT MORNING?
9 A I AM NOT SURE IF HE GAVE ME THE FLIGHT NUMBER.
HE JUST SAID AMERICAN AIRLINES IS WHERE HE USUALLY FLIES OUT
10 OF.
Q DID YOU -- YOU DIDN'T CLOCK OUT WITH YOUR BOSS
11 WHEN YOU LEFT YOUR HOUSE TO GO PICK UP MR. SIMPSON, DID YOU?
A NO.
12 Q AND YOU DON'T KEEP ANY TIME RECORDS WHERE YOU
RECORD THE TIMES ON A TIME SHEET OR ANYTHING?
13 A NO.
Q SO YOU ARE APPROXIMATING THIS, ARE YOU NOT?
14 A YES.
Q AND MOST OF THE TIMES THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT,
15 YOU ARE APPROXIMATING?
A YES.
16 MS. CLARK: WELL, OBJECTION -- WITHDRAWN.
MR. SHAPIRO: MAY I JUST HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
17 THE COURT: YES.
MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU.
18 THE COURT: MR. SHAPIRO, LET ME JUST ASK YOU, DO YOU
HAVE SUBSTANTIALLY MORE CROSS-EXAMINATION FOR THE WITNESS?
19 MR. SHAPIRO: WELL, THAT'S WHAT I AM REVIEWING RIGHT
NOW, YOUR HONOR.
20 THE COURT: IT MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE FOR US TO TAKE OUR
MORNING RECESS AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
21 MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: FIFTEEN MINUTES.
22 MR. PARK, I AM GOING TO ASK YOU, PLEASE DO NOT
DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANYONE EXCEPT THE LAWYERS INVOLVED
23 IN THIS MATTER.
MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, MAY I ASK YOU AT THIS POINT
24 IN TIME, SINCE WE ARE STILL ON DIRECT EXAMINATION, THAT HE NOT
DISCUSS THIS CASE WITH ANY LAWYERS.
25 MS. CLARK: I THINK WE ARE ON CROSS.
MR. SHAPIRO: WE ARE ON CROSS-EXAMINATION; THAT HE NOT
26 DISCUSS THIS CASE WITH ANY LAWYERS.
THE COURT: WELL, I THINK THAT HE HAS THE RIGHT TO
27 SPEAK TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY IF HE WISHES. OBVIOUSLY, YOU
CAN QUESTION HIM CONCERNING THAT IF HE DOES, IN FACT, SPEAK TO
28 THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY.
0059
1 MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, THEN I ASK YOU NOT TO TAKE A
RECESS AT THIS TIME.
2 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. SHAPIRO: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.
3 THANK YOU.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
4 WELL, YOU DO GET TO STEP DOWN AT THIS POINT.
MY ADMONITION STILL APPLIES. DO NOT DISCUSS YOUR
5 TESTIMONY AGAIN.
MS. CLARK: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. I HAVE REDIRECT.
6 THE COURT: OH, I AM SORRY.
MS. CLARK: MAY I?
7 THE COURT: WILL IT BE LENGTHY?
MS. CLARK: NO.
8 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MR. PARK, AGAIN, IF I CAN HAVE YOU JUST TAKE A
9 SEAT FOR A MOMENT.
MS. CLARK: MAY THE RECORD REFLECT MR. PARK LOOKED AT
10 ME IN A VERY UNFRIENDLY WAY.
I WILL BE BRIEF, MR. PARK.
11
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
12 BY MS. CLARK:
Q ARE YOU VAGUE ABOUT THE TIME THAT YOU ARRIVED AT
13 THE 360 ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS, SIR?
A NO.
14 Q YOU KNOW THAT PRECISELY YOU ARRIVED AT 10:25?
MR. SHAPIRO: I AM GOING TO OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE
15 QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ON WHAT BASIS?
16 MR. SHAPIRO: THAT IT IS LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
17 MS. CLARK: THE WITNESS HAS ALREADY TESTIFIED TO THAT.
HOW COULD I BE LEADING, YOUR HONOR?
18 MR. SHAPIRO: WELL, THEN IT IS ASKED AND ANSWERED.
MS. CLARK: IT IS FOUNDATIONAL.
19 MR. SHAPIRO: THERE IS NO REASON FOR FOUNDATION IF IT
IS ALREADY ON THE RECORD.
20 THE COURT: YOUR QUESTION WAS LEADING.
///
21 BY MS. CLARK:
Q MR. PARK, ARE YOU VAGUE ABOUT THE TIME THAT YOU
22 ARRIVED AT THE 360 ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE
12TH?
23 A I AM CERTAIN.
Q AND WHY ARE YOU CERTAIN?
24 A BECAUSE WHEN I ARRIVED AND PARKED, I LOOKED AT MY
WATCH.
25 Q AND THAT TIME WAS?
A 10:25.
26 Q IS THERE A CLOCK IN THE CAR?
A YES, THERE IS.
27 Q AND DID THAT CLOCK MATCH UP TO THE TIME ON YOUR
WATCH?
28 A IT MIGHT BE A COUPLE MINUTES OFF.
0060
1 Q APPROXIMATELY THE CORRECT TIME THOUGH?
A YES.
2 Q ARE YOU VAGUE ABOUT WHEN YOU CALLED YOUR BOSS?
A YES.
3 Q ARE YOU VAGUE ABOUT WHEN YOU PULLED DOWN TO THE
ROCKINGHAM GATE?
4 A YES.
Q WHAT TIMES ARE YOU CERTAIN OF?
5 A I AM CERTAIN ABOUT -- I LOOKED AT MY WATCH QUITE
A BIT, WAITING TO PICK UP. I AM CERTAIN ABOUT THE TIME I
6 ARRIVED; I AM CERTAIN ABOUT THE TIME I CAME UP TO THE ASHFORD
GATE AND STARTED RINGING. I AM CERTAIN ABOUT THE TIME OF THE
7 CALL FROM MY BOSS.
Q OKAY.
8 SO YOU ARE CERTAIN OF THE TIME THAT YOU ARRIVED
AT THE LOCATION, 360 ROCKINGHAM?
9 A YES.
Q AND YOU ARE CERTAIN ABOUT THE TIME THAT YOU BEGAN
10 TO RING THE BELL AT THE ASHFORD GATE?
MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I BELIEVE I'M GOING TO OBJECT
11 TO THIS. THIS IS GOING OVER THE SAME EXACT TESTIMONY THAT'S
ALREADY BEEN ELICITED.
12 MS. CLARK: NO, THAT'S NOT --
THE COURT: OVERRULED.
13 BY MS. CLARK:
Q WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU BEGAN TO RING THE BELL
14 THAT YOU ARE CERTAIN OF?
A 10:40.
15 Q AND WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU -- EXCUSE ME,
STRIKE THAT.
16 YOU SAID YOU WERE CERTAIN OF THE TIME THAT YOUR
BOSS CALLED YOU BACK?
17 A YES.
Q AND WHY IS THAT?
18 A BECAUSE AS HE CALLED, I LOOK AT MY WATCH TO LOOK
AT THE TIME -- HE TOLD ME TO WAIT UNTIL 11:15. SO I LOOKED AT
19 WHAT TIME IT WAS THEN TO MAKE SURE IT WASN'T 11:15.
Q SO YOU LOOKED SPECIFICALLY AT YOUR WATCH WHEN HE
20 TOLD YOU TO WAIT UNTIL 11:15?
A YES.
21 Q AND THE TIME WAS THEN?
A 10:55.
22 Q AND HOW LONG AFTER THAT POINT THAT YOU LOOKED AT
YOUR WATCH AND SAW IT WAS 10:55 THAT YOU SAW THE AFRICAN
23 AMERICAN PERSON WHO WAS SIX FOOT, ABOUT 200 POUNDS, GOING INTO
THE HOUSE?
24 A IT WAS A COUPLE MINUTES. I WAS ON THE PHONE A
COUPLE MINUTES.
25 Q AND YOU ARE CERTAIN OF THAT TIME?
A YES.
26 Q NOW YOU SPOKE TO MR. SHAPIRO BEFORE YOU EVER
SPOKE TO THE POLICE OR MYSELF IN THIS CASE; IS THAT CORRECT?
27 A YES.
Q YOU HAD THE INTERVIEW WITH HIM ON JUNE THE 14TH?
28 A FROM WHAT I REMEMBER, YES.
0061
1 Q AND THAT WAS THE INTERVIEW HE REFERRED TO AS
BEING ON THE SPEAKER PHONE WITH HIM?
2 A YES.
Q DID YOU KNOW YOU WERE BEING TAPED BY HIM AT THE
3 TIME, SIR?
A NO, I WAS NEVER TOLD I WAS BEING TAPED OR NEVER
4 ASKED TO BE TAPED.
Q MR. SHAPIRO NEVER TOLD YOU THAT HE WAS TAPING
5 YOUR CONVERSATION?
A NO, NEVER.
6 Q AND HE NEVER ASKED YOUR PERMISSION TO TAPE YOUR
CONVERSATION?
7 A NO, NEVER.
Q AND MR. SHAPIRO QUESTIONED YOU ABOUT THE TIMES
8 DURING THAT CONVERSATION HE HAD WITH YOU ON JUNE THE 14TH,
WHAT TIME YOU ARRIVED, WHAT TIME YOU LEFT?
9 A FROM WHAT I REMEMBER, YES.
Q WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. SHAPIRO ON JUNE THE 14TH,
10 1994, YOU GAVE HIM THE SAME TIMES THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN US IN
COURT TODAY; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
11 A YES.
MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
12 THE COURT: MR. SHAPIRO, DO YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER
QUESTIONS?
13 MR. SHAPIRO: NO, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU.
THE COURT: I THINK AT THIS TIME YOU CAN SAFELY STEP
14 DOWN.
THE WITNESS: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
15 THE COURT: I REMIND YOU NOT TO DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY.
WE WILL TAKE THAT RECESS THAT I MENTIONED FOR
16 FIFTEEN MINUTES.
(RECESS)
17 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
WE ARE ONCE AGAIN ON THE RECORD IN THE CASE OF
18 PEOPLE VERSUS SIMPSON.
THE DEFENDANT IS PRESENT WITH COUNSEL.
19 THE PEOPLE ARE REPRESENTED.
MISS CLARK?
20 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
PEOPLE CALL MR. BRIAN KAELIN.
21 OH, I AM SORRY, YOUR HONOR. ONE MINUTE.
THE COURT: FACE THE CLERK, SIR, AND RAISE YOUR RIGHT
22 HAND.
THE COURT CLERK: YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY
23 YOU ARE ABOUT TO GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS
COURT SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE
24 TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS: I DO.
25 THE COURT CLERK: PLEASE BE SEATED.
STATE AND SPELL YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD.
26 THE WITNESS: BRIAN, B-R-I-A-N. KATO. K-A-T-O.
KAELIN. K-A-E-L-I-N.
27
BRIAN KATO KAELIN,
28 CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE,
0062
1 WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
2 DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CLARK:
3 Q GOOD MORNING, MR. KAELIN.
A GOOD MORNING.
4 Q WERE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH SOMEONE BY THE NAME OF
NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?
5 A YES.
Q WHEN DID YOU MEET HER?
6 A DECEMBER OF '92.
Q AND WHERE WAS THAT?
7 A ASPEN, COLORADO.
Q YOU WERE FRIENDS?
8 A YES.
Q WAS THERE A ROMANTIC INVOLVEMENT BETWEEN YOU?
9 A NO.
Q DO YOU RECALL SEEING HER AGAIN IN JANUARY OF
10 1993?
A YES.
11 Q AND ON -- WHAT WAS THAT OCCASION?
A THERE WAS A PARTY.
12 Q WHERE?
A IN HER HOUSE.
13 Q WHICH WAS WHERE?
A 325 GRETNA GREEN.
14 Q IN BRENTWOOD?
A IN BRENTWOOD.
15 Q NOW THAT PARTICULAR HOUSE, DID IT HAVE A GUEST
HOUSE BEHIND IT?
16 A YES, IT DID.
Q DID YOU SEE THAT GUEST HOUSE WHEN YOU WERE AT THE
17 PARTY?
A YES, I DID.
18 Q DID YOU LIKE THAT GUEST HOUSE?
A YES, I DID.
19 Q WAS ANYONE LIVING IN IT AT THE TIME?
A JUST FURNITURE; THAT WAS IT.
20 Q JUST FURNITURE?
A RIGHT. NO PERSON.
21 Q DID THAT GIVE YOU SOME IDEAS?
A YES, IT DID.
22 Q WHAT IDEA WAS THAT?
A TO MOVE IN.
23 Q AND WHO DID YOU TALK TO ABOUT THAT?
A TO NICOLE.
24 Q DID YOU ASK TO MOVE INTO THE GUEST HOUSE?
A YES, I DID.
25 Q WHAT WAS YOUR ARRANGEMENT?
A TO CLEAN OUT THE GUEST HOUSE AND TO MOVE IN.
26 Q SO SHE AGREED TO LET YOU DO THAT?
A YES, SHE DID.
27 Q FOR RENT?
A YES.
28 Q AND WHAT RENT WERE YOU PAYING?
0063
1 A IT WAS 450-TO $500. I SOMETIMES TOOK CARE OF THE
KIDS AND SHE WOULD DEDUCT STUFF. SHE WAS VERY NICE ABOUT
2 EVERYTHING.
Q SO SHE WOULD GIVE MONEY OFF YOUR RENT IN RETURN
3 FOR YOUR TAKING CARE OF THE CHILDREN?
A YEAH, YES.
4 Q NOW, SHE LIVED IN THE MAIN HOUSE ON GRETNA GREEN?
A YES, SHE DID.
5 Q DID ANYBODY LIVE THERE WITH HER?
A SIDNEY AND JUSTIN, HER CHILDREN.
6 Q SIDNEY WAS HOW OLD THEN?
A SIDNEY WAS SEVEN.
7 Q AND JUSTIN?
A IS, I THINK, FOUR AND A HALF, FOUR AND THREE
8 QUARTERS, AROUND THERE.
Q YOU HAVE INDICATED A PERSON YOU KNEW AS
9 NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON. I AM SHOWING YOU WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS
PEOPLE'S 3, AND I ASK IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE PERSON SHOWN THERE.
10 A YES.
Q AND WHO IS THAT?
11 A NICOLE.
Q THE PERSON YOU HAVE BEEN REFERRING TO TODAY?
12 A YES.
Q DURING THAT TIME THAT YOU WERE LIVING ON GRETNA
13 GREEN IN THAT GUEST HOUSE BEHIND THE HOUSE, DID YOU MEET THE
DEFENDANT?
14 A YES.
Q AND WHEN I SAY, "THE DEFENDANT," DO YOU SEE
15 SOMEONE IN COURT TODAY THAT I AM REFERRING TO? DO YOU SEE
THAT PERSON IN COURT?
16 A YES.
Q AND WHAT IS HE WEARING?
17 A A SUIT COAT AND TIE.
Q COLOR OF THE SUIT?
18 A BLUE, I THINK. DARK BLUE.
THE COURT: INDICATING THE DEFENDANT.
19 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
Q NOW THE HOUSE ON GRETNA GREEN, THE GUEST HOUSE,
20 WAS THAT SEPARATED FROM THE MAIN HOUSE?
A YES.
21 Q AND FOR HOW LONG DID YOU LIVE THERE?
A I LIVED THERE UNTIL JANUARY OF '94.
22 Q WHAT HAPPENED IN JANUARY OF '94?
A I MOVED.
23 Q WHY DID YOU MOVE?
A BECAUSE THERE WAS ANOTHER PLACE TO MOVE TO.
24 Q WHAT ABOUT NICOLE, DID SHE MOVE?
A YES, SHE DID.
25 Q WHERE DID SHE MOVE TO?
A SHE MOVED TO BUNDY IN BRENTWOOD.
26 Q YOU DID NOT MOVE WITH HER?
A I DID NOT MOVE WITH HER.
27 Q HAD YOU PLANNED TO MOVE WITH HER INITIALLY?
A YES.
28 Q THE BUNDY RESIDENCE, DID YOU SEE IT?
0064
1 A YES.
Q DID IT HAVE A SEPARATE GUEST HOUSE?
2 A NO, IT DID NOT.
Q WHERE WERE YOU GOING TO STAY?
3 A IT DIDN'T HAVE A SEPARATE GUEST HOUSE; IT HAD A
SEPARATE ROOM -- I MEAN, IT WAS PART OF THE HOUSE, BUT IT WAS
4 DOWN SOME STAIRS.
Q SO YOU WERE GOING TO RENT A ROOM IN THAT HOUSE?
5 A YES.
Q BUT YOU DIDN'T?
6 A NO.
Q WHY NOT?
7 A BECAUSE I HAD A CHANCE TO MOVE INTO ANOTHER
PLACE.
8 Q HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?
A O.J. ASKED ME TO MOVE INTO HIS PLACE.
9 Q WHEN YOU SAY, "O.J.," YOU MEAN THE DEFENDANT?
A YES.
10 Q HE ASKED YOU TO MOVE INTO HIS PLACE?
A THAT HE HAD A ROOM THAT I COULD HAVE GOTTEN FROM
11 HIM.
Q DID HE TELL YOU WHY HE WANTED YOU TO MOVE INTO
12 HIS PLACE INSTEAD OF MOVING WITH NICOLE TO THE BUNDY ADDRESS?
A IT WAS PROBABLY BETTER THAT I WOULD BE AT THE
13 HOUSE. I --
Q WHY DID HE TELL YOU IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR YOU TO
14 BE AT HIS HOUSE?
A I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, IT WAS -- I WAS INSIDE THE
15 HOUSE, AND IT WAS PROBABLY NOT RIGHT FOR ME TO BE INSIDE THE
HOUSE INSTEAD OF A GUEST HOUSE. AND THAT WAY, I WOULDN'T BE
16 INSIDE THE SAME HOUSE.
Q WITH NICOLE?
17 A WITH NICOLE.
Q IS THAT WHAT HE TOLD YOU?
18 A I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT WORDS. IT WAS --
Q WHAT DID HE TELL YOU, MR. KAELIN?
19 A THAT HE HAD A PLACE AT HIS HOUSE, AND I COULD
STAY THERE.
20 Q AND WHY DID HE TELL YOU HE WANTED YOU TO DO THAT?
A THAT IT WOULDN'T BE PROBABLY RIGHT THAT -- FOR ME
21 TO BE IN THE HOUSE. THEY WERE TRYING TO WORK THINGS OUT. AND
I AGREED, AND SO I SAID OKAY.
22 Q SO HE TOLD YOU THAT HE AND NICOLE WERE TRYING TO
WORK THINGS OUT AND IT WOULD BE BETTER IF YOU STAYED AT HIS
23 PLACE?
A YES. HE OFFERED HIS PLACE, AND I SAID OKAY.
24 Q AND HOW MUCH RENT DID YOU PAY THE DEFENDANT TO
STAY AT HIS PLACE?
25 A NOTHING. IT WAS -- O.J. GAVE IT TO ME.
Q THE DEFENDANT GAVE IT TO YOU FOR FREE?
26 A YES.
Q WHEN DID YOU MOVE IN?
27 A JANUARY OF '94.
Q DO YOU SEE A DIAGRAM THERE TO YOUR LEFT?
28 A YES.
0065
1 Q THIS DIAGRAM THAT WAS PREVIOUSLY MARKED PEOPLE'S
7 FOR IDENTIFICATION, DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S SHOWN IN IT?
2 A YES.
Q WHAT IS IT?
3 A IT IS THE HOUSE, HOW IT WOULD LOOK.
Q WHAT HOUSE?
4 A ON ROCKINGHAM, O.J.'S.
Q THE ONE AT 360 ROCKINGHAM?
5 A YES.
Q NOW, CAN YOU SEE YOUR GUEST HOUSE ON THIS
6 DIAGRAM?
A NO.
7 Q IT IS NOT SHOWN HERE, IS IT?
A NO, IT IS NOT.
8 Q IF THE DIAGRAM WERE TO EXTEND FARTHER BACK WHERE
I AM STANDING, WHICH IS THE OPPOSITE END OF THE AREA MARKED
9 ROCKINGHAM ON THIS DIAGRAM, WOULD THE GUEST HOUSE BE BACK
HERE?
10 A YES, IT WOULD.
Q BEHIND THE MAIN HOUSE?
11 A YES.
Q WHAT ELSE IS BACK THERE WHERE YOUR GUEST HOUSE
12 IS?
A THERE IS A POOL, JACUZZI, TENNIS COURTS,
13 BASKETBALL COURTS, TOGETHER.
Q IS THERE A POOL HOUSE AS WELL?
14 A YES, THERE IS.
Q DOES THE POOL HOUSE HAVE A BEDROOM IN IT?
15 A A BEDROOM? NO.
Q AND HOW MANY GUEST HOUSE UNITS ARE THERE?
16 A THREE.
Q ARE THEY ALL TOGETHER OR SEPARATED?
17 A SEPARATED.
Q DO THEY HAVE COMMON WALLS? DO YOU KNOW WHAT I
18 MEAN?
A NO. YOU MEAN COMMON -- CAN I HEAR SOMEONE
19 POUNDING?
Q NO, NO, NO. THE GUEST HOUSES THAT ARE BEHIND THE
20 MAIN HOUSE AT 360 ROCKINGHAM, ARE THEY ALL CONNECTED TOGETHER?
A YES, THEY ARE.
21 Q SO THAT EACH OF THEM HAS A COMMON WALL?
A YES.
22 Q NOW THE AREA THAT IS SHOWN TO THE SOUTH OF THE
GARAGE -- I AM GOING TO POINT IT OUT FOR YOU WITH MY PEN, THIS
23 AREA RIGHT DOWN HERE, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IS IN THAT AREA?
A BACK THERE WOULD BE AIR CONDITIONING UNITS. IT
24 IS LIKE THE BACK OF THE HOUSE. IT IS A LITTLE ALLEYWAY,
SHRUBS, A LITTLE GATE THAT --
25 Q IS THERE A CONCRETE WALKWAY THERE?
A YES.
26 Q AND IS IT OVERHUNG WITH SOME TREES COMING FROM
THE OTHER PROPERTY?
27 A YES.
Q IS THERE A FENCE?
28 A YES, I BELIEVE THERE IS, FROM THE OTHER -- YES,
0066
1 IT SEPARATES.
Q SO IS THAT THE AREA THAT IS THE END OF THE
2 PROPERTY OF 360 ROCKINGHAM? IN OTHER WORDS, IS THAT THE
BOUNDARY BETWEEN THE 360 ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS AND THE NEIGHBOR'S
3 HOUSE?
A YES.
4 Q DOES THE BACK OF YOUR GUEST HOUSE, THE WALL THAT
IS THE BACK OF YOUR GUEST HOUSE, FACE ONTO THAT LITTLE
5 WALKWAY?
A YES, IT DOES.
6 Q AND THE BACK OF YOUR AIR CONDITIONING UNIT ALSO
HANGS OUT OVER THAT WALKWAY?
7 A YES.
Q IS YOUR AIR CONDITIONING UNIT INSTALLED IN A
8 WINDOW OR A HOLE IN THE WALL?
A IT IS A HOLE IN THE WALL.
9 Q DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO JUNE THE 12TH, 1994,
SUNDAY NIGHT -- OR EXCUSE ME, SUNDAY DAY, WHO WAS AT HOME IN
10 THE HOUSE THAT DAY? WHO DID YOU SEE IN THE HOUSE AT 360
ROCKINGHAM?
11 A O.J.
Q THE DEFENDANT?
12 A YES.
Q ANYONE ELSE?
13 A I DIDN'T SEE ANYONE ELSE IN THE HOUSE, NO.
Q WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT FOR
14 THE FIRST TIME AT THE HOUSE ON 360 ROCKINGHAM?
A I THINK IT WAS ABOUT 2:30 IN THE AFTERNOON.
15 Q DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
A YES.
16 Q AND WHAT WAS THAT CONVERSATION ABOUT?
A I ASKED ABOUT HIS GOLF GAME. BECAUSE I KNEW HE
17 WENT GOLFING.
Q HE TOLD YOU HE WENT GOLFING?
18 A UH-HUH.
Q IS THAT YES?
19 A YES, HE WENT GOLFING. I ASKED HOW HE DID. HE
SAID HE DID GREAT. AND THEN HE PLAYED CARDS.
20 Q DID HE SAY WHERE HE PLAYED CARDS?
A NO.
21 Q DID HE MENTION WHAT ELSE HE WAS GOING TO DO THAT
DAY?
22 A THERE WAS A DANCE RECITAL THAT HE WAS GOING TO GO
TO.
23 Q FOR WHO?
A FOR SIDNEY, HIS DAUGHTER.
24 Q WHAT TIME WAS THAT RECITAL FOR HIS DAUGHTER,
SIDNEY, SUPPOSED TO BEGIN?
25 A 5:00 O'CLOCK.
Q NOTICE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THE DEFENDANT'S
26 BEHAVIOR AT THAT TIME?
A NO.
27 Q DID HE MENTION ANYTHING TO YOU ABOUT NICOLE?
A AT 2:30, AROUND THAT TIME?
28 Q YES.
0067
1 A NO.
Q DO YOU RECALL HIM MENTIONING AT SOME POINT DURING
2 THAT DAY THAT HE WAS THROUGH WITH NICOLE?
A OH, THAT IT WAS OVER, THE RELATIONSHIP WAS OVER?
3 Q YES.
A YES, IT WAS --
4 Q WHEN DID HE TELL YOU THAT?
A OH, IT WAS JUST SOMETHING IN KIND OF PASSING,
5 THAT THEY WERE NOT TOGETHER ANYMORE.
Q SOMETIME DURING THAT DAY?
6 A UH-HUH.
Q YES?
7 A YES.
Q DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME IT WAS?
8 A IN THE AFTERNOON. I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT TIME.
Q COULD IT HAVE BEEN AROUND THAT 2:30 TIME THAT YOU
9 HAVE JUST --
A IT WAS DURING OUR CONVERSATION, YES.
10 Q AND WHEN HE TOLD YOU THAT -- WELL, CAN YOU
RECOUNT FOR US HIS EXACT WORDS?
11 A NO, NOT THE EXACT WORDS.
Q CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE TONE OF VOICE IN WHICH HE
12 TOLD YOU THAT?
A IT WAS CASUAL.
13 Q HE DID NOT SOUND ANGRY?
A NO.
14 Q WHAT WAS THE VERY NEXT TIME YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT
THAT DAY?
15 A I BELIEVE IT WAS AFTER THE RECITAL.
Q ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS THAT?
16 A I AM GUESSING ABOUT 6:30, 7:00, AROUND THERE.
THE EXACT TIME, I DON'T KNOW, BUT I THINK THAT'S ABOUT --
17 Q AROUND 7:00?
A YES, THE PLAY-OFF GAMES ENDED. THAT'S HOW I
18 REMEMBER THAT.
Q WHAT PLAY-OFF GAME WAS THAT?
19 A HOUSTON AND THE NICKS. SO IT WAS AFTER THAT,
ABOUT 6:30, 7:00.
20 Q DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE DEFENDANT?
A YES.
21 Q ABOUT WHAT?
A I ASKED HOW THE RECITAL WAS, AND HOW SIDNEY WAS,
22 AND, "SHE WAS GREAT."
Q IS THAT WHAT HE SAID, "SHE WAS GREAT"?
23 A UH-HUH.
Q YES?
24 A YES, "SHE WAS GREAT."
Q YOU HAVE TO SAY "YES" OR "NO" BECAUSE THIS LADY
25 DOES NOT HAVE A BUTTON FOR UH-HUH. OKAY?
A SHE SHOULD GET ONE.
26 Q AND WHAT WAS THE DEFENDANT'S MOOD LIKE AT THAT
POINT, ABOUT 7:00 O'CLOCK?
27 A NOT UPBEAT, NOT DOWNBEAT. I THOUGHT HE WAS
TIRED.
28 Q DID HE SEEM RELAXED?
0068
1 A YES.
Q MAKE ANY MENTION OF NICOLE?
2 A AT THE SECOND CONVERSATION?
Q YES, AT ABOUT 7:00 O'CLOCK, DID THE DEFENDANT
3 MENTION ANYTHING TO YOU ABOUT NICOLE?
A THAT HE SAW HER AT THE DANCE RECITAL.
4 Q AND WHAT ELSE DID HE SAY?
A THAT HER AND A FRIEND, THEY WERE WEARING TIGHT
5 OUTFITS.
Q AND?
6 A AND --
Q DID HE MAKE SOME MENTION ABOUT THAT, SOME -- DID
7 HE MAKE SOME COMMENT ABOUT THAT?
A IT WAS A COMMENT IF -- BEING ABLE TO DRESS THAT
8 WAY WHEN THEY ARE OLDER.
Q AND WHAT WAS HIS TONE OF VOICE? WAS IT ANGRY?
9 A NO.
Q WHAT WAS IT?
10 A KIND OF MATTER OF FACT.
Q WHAT WAS HE SAYING, HE WONDERED HOW THEY LOOKED
11 IN THOSE OUTFITS WHEN THEY GOT OLDER?
A YES.
12 Q WAS THAT IT? I AM ASKING YOU.
A OH, IT WAS -- THE EXACT WORDING, I DON'T KNOW.
13 "IF THEY ARE GOING TO BE GRANDMAS, THEY CAN'T WEAR THOSE
OUTFITS," SOMETHING LIKE THAT, "WHEN THEY ARE OLDER."
14 Q OKAY.
SO YOU SPOKE TO THE DEFENDANT FOR HOW LONG AT
15 THAT POINT?
A I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT -- HOW MANY MINUTES.
16 ABOUT A HALF HOUR.
Q WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT?
17 A I ASKED IF I COULD TAKE A JACUZZI.
Q AND DID HE SAY YES?
18 A YES.
Q DID YOU DO THAT?
19 A YES.
Q AND FOR HOW LONG DID YOU STAY IN THE JACUZZI?
20 A I STAYED IN THERE ABOUT A HALF HOUR.
Q HAD YOU EVER USED THE JACUZZI BEFORE?
21 A NO.
Q IS THAT THE FIRST TIME?
22 A YES, I SWAM IN IT BEFORE, BUT I NEVER ACTUALLY
USED IT, SAT IN IT TO USE IT.
23 Q IS -- HOW LONG DID YOU STAY IN THE JACUZZI?
A I THINK IT WAS ABOUT A HALF HOUR.
24 Q SO YOU GOT OUT ABOUT WHEN?
A I THINK WHEN I GOT OUT OF THERE IT WAS ABOUT
25 8:30, ABOUT.
Q AND AFTER YOU GOT OUT OF THE JACUZZI, WHAT DID
26 YOU DO NEXT?
A I MADE A PHONE CALL.
27 Q TO WHO?
A TO A FRIEND NAMED SUSAN.
28 Q AND WHILE YOU WERE ON THE PHONE, DID YOU HAVE
0069
1 CONTACT -- WHEN YOU WERE ON THE PHONE WITH SUSAN, DID YOU HAVE
CONTACT WITH SOMEONE ELSE?
2 A NO, I DON'T THINK IT WAS --
Q DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT WHILE YOU WERE ON THE
3 PHONE WITH SUSAN?
A NO. I THINK IT WAS AFTER, HE CAME TO MY ROOM.
4 Q THE DEFENDANT CAME TO YOUR ROOM?
A YES.
5 Q AND WHAT DID HE SAY TO YOU?
A THAT I FORGOT TO TURN THE JACUZZI OFF.
6 Q AND BY THAT TIME WERE YOU STILL ON THE PHONE WITH
SUSAN, OR HAD YOU HUNG UP?
7 A I THINK I HUNG UP.
Q AND WHAT DID THE DEFENDANT SAY TO YOU?
8 A TO REMEMBER TO TURN OFF THE JACUZZI NEXT TIME I
USE IT. AND HE ASKED ME IF I WAS DONE WITH THE JACUZZI, AND I
9 SAID, "YES, I AM DONE. SORRY THAT I DIDN'T TURN IT OFF."
Q DID YOU COME OUT OF YOUR ROOM TO SAY THAT TO HIM,
10 TO HAVE THAT CONVERSATION?
A I WAS AT MY DOORWAY, I BELIEVE.
11 Q WHERE WAS HE?
A OUTSIDE THE DOOR.
12 Q HOW MANY FEET AWAY WERE YOU FROM EACH OTHER?
A I THINK THREE FEET.
13 Q DID YOU NOTICE ANY INJURY TO HIS HANDS OR THAT HE
WAS BLEEDING FROM HIS HANDS IN ANYWAY?
14 A NO.
Q WAS THERE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT HIS BEHAVIOR AT
15 THAT TIME?
A NO.
16 Q SO HE TOLD YOU THAT YOU HAD LEFT THE JETS ON IN
THE JACUZZI?
17 A YES.
Q WHAT ELSE DID HE SAY?
18 A NEXT TIME I USE IT, TURN IT OFF, THE JETS.
Q DID YOU GO AND TURN OFF THE JETS THEN?
19 A NO. HE HAD TURNED THE JETS OFF.
Q AND WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER THAT?
20 A I MADE A PHONE CALL.
Q SO YOU WENT BACK IN YOUR ROOM?
21 A I WENT BACK IN MY ROOM.
Q AND WHO DID YOU CALL THIS TIME?
22 A A FRIEND OF MINE, TOM.
Q AND DURING THAT PHONE CALL, DID YOU HAVE CONTACT
23 WITH THE DEFENDANT?
A YES.
24 Q WHAT HAPPENED?
A HE CAME BY, AND HE NEEDED TO BORROW MONEY TO --
25 BECAUSE HE HAD $100 BILLS, AND HE WANTED TO HAVE FIVE FOR A
SKY CAB, TO TIP THE SKY CAB. AND SO I LENT HIM MONEY.
26 Q NOW, WHEN HE CAME OUT TO THE GUEST HOUSE AT THAT
POINT WHILE YOU WERE ON THE PHONE WITH TOM, DID HE CALL OUT TO
27 YOU, OR DID HE JUST SHOW UP AT YOUR DOOR AND KNOCK?
A OH, HE CALLED OUT TO ME.
28 Q WHAT DID HE CALL YOU? BY WHAT NAME?
0070
1 A KATO.
Q IS THAT YOUR NICKNAME?
2 A YES.
Q SO HE ASKED TO BORROW MONEY FOR A SKY CAB?
3 A SKY CAB. AND HE WAS GOING TO GET A BURGER.
Q AND WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE?
4 A "SURE. WHAT DO YOU NEED?" WHATEVER I HAD.
Q SO DID YOU GET MONEY FOR HIM?
5 A YES.
Q HOW MUCH MONEY DID YOU GIVE HIM?
6 A $20.
Q AND DID YOU PUT THAT -- WAS IT A $20 BILL?
7 A $20 BILL.
Q DID YOU PUT IT IN HIS HAND?
8 A YES.
Q DID YOU NOTICE ANY INJURY TO HIS HAND?
9 A NO, I DID NOT.
Q WHAT WAS THE DEFENDANT WEARING AT THAT TIME?
10 A I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT CLOTHING. I THOUGHT IT
WAS A SWEAT OUTFIT.
11 Q SWEAT OUTFIT, LIKE SWEATSHIRT OR NYLON-TYPE?
A A WARMUP, I BELIEVE. I MEAN, I AM NOT POSITIVE
12 ON THAT, BUT I THINK IT WAS A WARMUP OUTFIT.
Q COULD YOU -- CAN YOU REMEMBER WHAT KIND OF
13 MATERIAL IT WAS, OR COULD YOU TELL AT THE TIME?
A NO, I COULD NOT.
14 Q WHAT COLOR WAS IT?
A IT WAS DARK.
15 Q BLACK?
A A DARK COLOR.
16 Q WAS IT BLACK?
A I MEAN IT WAS DARK OUT, SO IT WAS A DARK COLOR.
17 I MEAN, IT COULD HAVE BEEN DARK BLUE OR BLACK.
Q ONE OF THOSE?
18 A RIGHT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
19 DID IT HAVE LONG SLEEVES?
A YES.
20 Q AFTER YOU GAVE THE DEFENDANT A $20 BILL, WHAT DID
YOU NEXT DO?
21 A OH, I ASKED IF I COULD GO TO MC DONALD'S WITH
HIM.
22 Q AND HE SAID?
A "YES."
23 Q WHAT DID YOU DO?
A I WENT TO MC DONALD'S WITH HIM.
24 Q OKAY. DID YOU LEAVE?
A YES, WE LEFT.
25 Q DID YOU WALK THROUGH THE MAIN HOUSE TO DO THAT?
A YES, WE DID.
26 Q AND DID YOU GET INTO A CAR WITH HIM?
A YES.
27 Q WHAT CAR DID YOU GET INTO?
A HIS ROLLS ROYCE.
28 Q WHO DROVE?
A O.J.
Q THE DEFENDANT
A YES
0094
01 Can you look at the diagram to your left --
02 that's People's 7 -- and indicate, if you will, where
03 the Rolls Royce was parked when you got into it that
04 night to go to McDonald's?
05 A Stand up?
06 Q Please.
07 A Oh.
08 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness is
09 pointing.
10 BY MS. CLARK:
11 Q Will you please take the pen and put an 'R'
12 there.
13 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has placed
14 an 'R', a large 'R', on the diagram.
15 BY MS. CLARK:
16 Q Let me ask you, sir, if you would point out on
17 this diagram, if you can, on these photographs that have
18 been marked as People's 6, if you can see the area where
19 the Rolls was parked that night when you went out to
20 Mc Donald's, and was it parked in the same place that's
21 shown in the photograph labeled as 'F'?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Was it pointing out towards the Rockingham
24 gate that way as well?
25 A Yes.
26 Q Was that usually where that Rolls Royce was
27 kept parked, sir?
28 A Yes.
0095
01 Q What time was it when you left to get burgers?
02 A It was about 9:10.
03 Q And what gate did you exit through?
04 A The gate?
05 Q Yes.
06 A The gate that's on Rockingham.
07 Q The Rockingham gate.
08 Is that the gate shown in photograph 'F' of
09 People's 6?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did you notice any injury to the defendant's
12 hands as he drove the Rolls Royce to go get something to
13 eat?
14 A No, I did not.
15 Q When you left out, when you went out the
16 Rockingham gate, did you look to see whether there were
17 any cars parked near the Rockingham gate?
18 A I did not.
19 Q Do you know, sir, whether the defendant owned
20 a white Ford Bronco?
21 A Did I know if he owned one?
22 Q Yes.
23 A Yes.
24 Q Had you seen it around the property?
25 A Yes.
26 Q And have you seen it around the property from
27 the time you moved in in January of '94?
28 A Yes.
0096
01 Q Was there one particular place where he would
02 always park it?
03 A It wasn't -- it could be in the driveway. It
04 was on Ashford, you know, the street Ashford. It was
05 inside the gated area. It wasn't a set spot ever. I
06 mean, but normally my car would be parked on Ashford
07 with it.
08 Q So you used to park either in front or behind
09 the white Ford Bronco?
10 A Yeah, on the same road.
11 Q And that would be on the Ashford side?
12 A Um-hum. The Ashford side.
13 Q And that would be inside the gate?
14 A No. It could be -- it's on -- it could be
15 parked outside, it could be parked inside. Normally it
16 was parked outside on Ashford.
17 Q Normally parked outside the Ashford gate; is
18 that right?
19 A The Ashford side; correct.
20 Q Can you tell us -- yes.
21 Do you see the Ashford side gate in these
22 photographs, sir?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Which one is that?
25 A 'A'.
26 MS. CLARK: And for the record, when I say "these
27 photographs," again I was referring to People's 6.
28 \ \
0097
01 BY MS. CLARK:
02 Q Now the white Ford Bronco I have been
03 referring to --
04 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, I ask that this series of
05 photographs labeled 'A' through 'F' be marked
06 collectively as People's 8.
07 THE COURT: All right.
08 BY MS. CLARK:
09 Q Can you see these photographs, Mr. Kaelin?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Can you tell us if you recognize the vehicle
12 shown in photograph 'A' of People's 8?
13 A Do I recognize it? Yes. The Bronco, yes.
14 Q Is that the white Ford Bronco that you
15 recognize as belonging to the defendant?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And the one that was parked -- that was always
18 parked at the Ashford side gate.
19 A It was -- yeah. It was -- that's the white
20 Bronco, yes.
21 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object to --
22 MS. CLARK: May I --
23 MR. SHAPIRO: Excuse me. May I complete my
24 objection?
25 THE COURT: Yes.
26 MR. SHAPIRO: I'm going to object to the statement
27 by the prosecutor that it was always parked on the
28 Ashford side gate. That misstates the evidence.
0098
01 THE COURT: Sustained.
02 BY MS. CLARK:
03 Q Was that white Ford Bronco, to your knowledge,
04 when you were living there from January of '94 through
05 June of '94, was that vehicle, the white Ford Bronco,
06 always parked at the Ashford gate?
07 A Not always. But it would be parked on
08 Ashford. But not always on Ashford.
09 Q Where else would it be parked?
10 A It could be parked inside the lot and --
11 Q If it was parked inside the gate, would it be
12 on the Ashford side of the gate, the Ashford gate that
13 it was parked? Do you know what I mean?
14 You have the other driveway that goes -- the
15 driveway that leads to the Ashford gate, and you have
16 the driveway that leads to the Rockingham gate; right?
17 A Right.
18 Q If it was parked inside of the gate, would it
19 be parked on the Ashford side of the driveway?
20 A The front of the house, it would be parked in
21 the front of the house, so he'd have to back it up, I
22 guess, to go -- you could go through either way.
23 Q You could go through and go out Rockingham or
24 else go through and go out Ashford?
25 A With the gate, correct.
26 Q And when it was parked outside the gate,
27 though, was it parked on Ashford?
28 A Well, most of the time it would be on Ashford.
0099
01 Q So is it your testimony, sir, that it was
02 normally parked on the Ashford side, outside the Ashford
03 gate?
04 A Normally.
05 Q On the way to Mc Donald's, did you happen to
06 notice the time?
07 A Um, yes, I did.
08 Q And where were you when you noticed what time
09 it was?
10 A At 26th and San Vicente. It's a stop light.
11 Q What time was it when you got to 26th and
12 San Vicente?
13 A It was 9:18. 9:15 or 9:18. It was right in
14 there on his clock in the car.
15 Q How long after that did you get to
16 Mc Donald's?
17 A About seven minutes.
18 Q And did you go into the restaurant or did you
19 drive to the take-up window -- the take-out window?
20 A The drive-through window.
21 Q The drive-through window, thank you.
22 Was that on your side or on the defendant's
23 side?
24 A On -- it was on the driver's side, the window.
25 Q When he pulled up to the window, did you have
26 to pay first and then get your food later?
27 A Yes.
28 Q Who paid for the food?
0100
01 A I paid 'cause he had 20's and I had another
02 20, so I paid for the food.
03 Q Did you hand a second $20 bill then to the
04 defendant to pay?
05 A Yes.
06 Q And what did he do with that $20 bill you gave
07 him in the car?
08 A Paid Mc Donald's.
09 Q Did you see him do that?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And did he get change back?
12 A Change back.
13 Q Okay. Did you notice any injury to his hands
14 at that time?
15 A No.
16 Q Did you drive forward and get the food at the
17 second window?
18 A Yes, we did.
19 Q Did he take that food?
20 A Yes.
21 Q What did he do with it?
22 A He took the food.
23 Q Yes.
24 Where did he put it?
25 A The bag was in his lap. Then he gave me
26 the -- my stuff, my food.
27 Q So he was -- and what did he do with his food?
28 A He ate it.
0101
01 Q And he drove at the same time?
02 A Yes.
03 Q And he did that on the way back to the house
04 at Rockingham?
05 A Yes.
06 Q Did you eat your food as well?
07 A No. I had a few French fries, but that was
08 it, and I didn't eat the main course.
09 Q If you can call it that.
10 A Yeah.
11 Q So he drove and he ate his dinner at the same
12 time on the way back to Rockingham.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did you notice any injury to his hands at that
15 time?
16 A No, I did not.
17 Q Or bleeding?
18 A No.
19 Q What time did you get home?
20 A About 9:40, 9:45. Around there.
21 Q Which gate did you enter through, Ashford or
22 Rockingham?
23 A I don't remember.
24 Q Do you remember where the car -- where the
25 defendant parked the Rolls?
26 A Same spot. In that picture we saw before.
27 Q The spot you indicated on --
28 A 'F'.
0102
01 Q Thank you. Photograph 'F' of People's 6.
02 All right.
03 Would you describe the defendant's demeanor at
04 that time when you got back from Mc Donald's. How did
05 he appear to you?
06 A He looked tired.
07 Q Tired?
08 A I thought tired, yes.
09 Q Other than that, anything unusual?
10 A No.
11 Q What did you do when you got back to the
12 residence?
13 A I got out and went to my room to eat.
14 Q You took your food back to your room?
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q Did you see where the defendant went?
17 A No, I did not. He got out of the car so --
18 Q Now, who else was in the house that night when
19 you came back from Mc Donald's? Other than you and the
20 defendant, was there anyone else around?
21 A Not that I knew of, no.
22 Q Can you tell us who usually occupied the other
23 two guest units?
24 A Arnelle, O.J.'s daughter, and the maid,
25 housekeeper.
26 Q Housekeeper.
27 Were you acquainted with the defendant's --
28 one of the defendant's sons named Jason?
0103
01 A Yes, I know Jason.
02 Q And approximately how old is he?
03 A 25.
04 Q Did he have a guest unit there that he stayed
05 in?
06 A No.
07 Q Did you see him there that day?
08 A No.
09 Q Was he there that night?
10 A No.
11 Q So neither Arnelle nor Jason was there that
12 night?
13 A No.
14 Q And --
15 A From what I knew. I didn't see them, so, no,
16 they weren't.
17 Q And the housekeeper that the defendant had who
18 stayed in the third unit, guest unit, was she there that
19 night?
20 A No.
21 Q When you got back to your room, what did you
22 do?
23 A I ate my sandwich and called my friend back
24 up.
25 Q For how long did you talk to your friend?
26 A I think about 10, 15 minutes.
27 Q And what did you do after that?
28 A After that I was going to type up some
0104
01 letters, so I went to type up some letters but the
02 typewriter wasn't working, so I made another phone call.
03 Q Who did you call?
04 A My friend, Rachael.
05 Q And what time was it when you called her?
06 A I called her at about 10:10, around there.
07 Q During that phone call, did something unusual
08 occur?
09 A Yeah. I heard a noise.
10 Q Now how long had you been talking to your
11 friend Rachael when you heard that noise?
12 A It was probably a half hour into the
13 conversation.
14 Q Okay. So about 10:45 or so you heard a
15 noise?
16 A About that time.
17 Q Can you describe for us the noise you heard,
18 Mr. Kaelin?
19 A It was -- you know, my room, it has this wall
20 and it was a -- (Noise made) like that.
21 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness thumped on
22 the witness stand with his fist.
23 THE COURT: You hit the witness stand like three
24 times or so. Was it three noises that you heard?
25 THE WITNESS: I believe it was three noises. It
26 was a thumping.
27 BY MS. CLARK:
28 Q It sounded like three thumps?
0105
01 A Yes.
02 Q And where did the thumps seem to come from?
03 A Right behind the bedroom wall where my bed
04 would be.
05 Q You said you have an air conditioning unit in
06 the hole in the wall?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Was it in the same wall that the air
09 conditioning unit was in?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Was it near the air conditioning unit that the
12 thump seemed to come from?
13 A Yes.
14 Q What happened when you heard those thumps?
15 A Well, I was on the phone and I said -- I asked
16 Rachael, I said, "I think we had a earthquake. Did we
17 have an earthquake?" And, "no," she said.
18 And I noticed my picture moved, so I started
19 thinking that maybe it was a person back there. And
20 then I have this little flashlight and I was going to
21 investigate.
22 Q So there was a picture on that wall also.
23 A (No audible response.)
24 Q Is that "yes"?
25 A Yes, it was a picture.
26 Q And that moved when you heard the noises?
27 A Yes. It almost moved off the wall.
28 Q Now, the area that you're talking about, if
0106
01 this diagram were to go farther to your left, my right,
02 it would be along this pathway, this south pathway that
03 you've traced with a line here? That's just below the
04 garage on the diagram?
05 A Yes.
06 Q And the wall of your guest house that you're
07 referring to where you heard the thumps is the wall that
08 faces onto that little pathway?
09 A Yes.
10 Q Okay. So after you heard those thumps, you
11 indicated before you thought it was an earthquake or
12 maybe someone outside?
13 A Right. I said to her on the phone, I said as
14 a joke, "if I don't call back in ten minutes, start to
15 worry."
16 Q And were you worried?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Were you scared?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Did you think it might be a prowler?
21 A Yes.
22 Q So what did you do?
23 A Well, I got the little flashlight and I went
24 out to check on the noise.
25 Q Now, you hung up the phone how long after you
26 heard the thumps?
27 A About two to three minutes. Pretty -- pretty
28 fast I hung up the phone.
0107
01 Q Pretty fast?
02 A I'm pretty sure I did. I might have talked
03 about the noise for a bit but then I hung up and said I
04 was going to go and do it and check on it. So two or
05 three minutes.
06 Q Do you recall testifying before the grand jury
07 that it was one to five minutes?
08 A Yes. That's in the range.
09 Q That's in the range, yes.
10 It could have been as little as one minute?
11 A It might have been, yes.
12 Q So the time between hearing the thumps and you
13 hanging up the phone could have been as little as one
14 minute, as much as five minutes?
15 A Yes.
16 Q You took the flashlight with you.
17 A Yes, I did.
18 Q Where did you go?
19 A To the area from my room, I went around and
20 went to the garage area.
21 Q When you say you went to the garage area, what
22 part of the garage area did you go to?
23 A Well, I walked down the pathway just a bit.
24 Q And you mean the area you've indicated earlier
25 that would be just below where it's indicating "garage"
26 on that diagram?
27 Again, you are pointing to it now.
28 Is that the area where you've kind of
0108
01 previously drawn a line?
02 A Yes.
03 Q How did you get to that area? What path did
04 you take to get there?
05 A From my room?
06 Q Yes.
07 A I -- there's a path that I followed to the
08 front area.
09 Q So did you walk through the pool area?
10 A Through the pool area, and then --
11 Q And is there a grassy portion on the Ashford
12 side of the house?
13 A There's grass, right, but I stayed on the
14 cement.
15 Q You stayed on the path?
16 A And walked to that area.
17 Q So the garage area?
18 A Yes.
19 Q When you came out on the path, on the Ashford
20 side of the house, can you show us that path and mark
21 it?
22 A Say it again? What was it?
23 Q The path that you say you walked on.
24 A Right.
25 Q That's on the Ashford side of the house.
26 Could you please mark that on the diagram.
27 A As I was coming from my room back here, this
28 would be the path right here. Like that.
0109
01 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has traced
02 a path --
03 BY MS. CLARK:
04 Q I would like for you to mark that path --
05 A This path?
06 Q Yes. Mark the path indicating where -- put a
07 'B' -- no, no, we already have a 'B'.
08 Put a 'K' on that path.
09 Thank you, Mr. Kaelin.
10 MS. CLARK: And the witness has marked the path
11 with a 'K' where he's indicated.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 BY MS. CLARK:
14 Q So you walked down that path to the driveway,
15 down the driveway, past the garage, and down the
16 south -- over to the southern corner of the garage?
17 A I only went so far the first time. About
18 that far.
19 Q For the record, why don't you mark where that
20 is. Put K-1.
21 You can step down.
22 Thank you.
23 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has placed
24 K-1 on the diagram.
25 BY MS. CLARK:
26 Q That's where you stopped?
27 A Yes.
28 Q When you first came out on the path, sir, did
0110
01 you notice anything or anyone in the driveway or at the
02 gate?
03 A The limousine.
04 Q Did you see anyone sitting in the car?
05 A I couldn't tell if someone was in the car or
06 not. It was just the car was there.
07 Q Did you stop to talk to that person or let
08 them in the gate?
09 A Not the first time.
10 Q Why not?
11 A Because I figured there was an intercom phone
12 there, that the person took care of everything. He
13 probably called the house.
14 Q Can the gate be opened from inside the house
15 electronically?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Now, when you went around to the Ashford side
18 gate -- when you first came out on the path, were the
19 lights in the house on or off?
20 A The light upstairs I think was on.
21 Q How about downstairs?
22 A No, I didn't notice any lights on downstairs.
23 Q So did it appear to you that the lights
24 downstairs were off when you first came out on that
25 path?
26 A I don't remember.
27 The lights inside the house?
28 Q Inside the house, downstairs.
0111
01 A I don't remember if lights were on or off. I
02 think it was dark.
03 Q After you got to that point on the path of the
04 garage -- strike that.
05 A I think the lights were on. I'm -- God. I
06 think the lights were on. It's a matter -- I think
07 they were on.
08 Q I just want to know what you remember. Do
09 you remember?
10 A I don't know for sure. I don't know.
11 Q You're not sure if the lights were on or off
12 downstairs?
13 A Correct; correct.
14 Q I'm talking about the point where you first
15 came out on the path and saw the limo driver.
16 A Yes.
17 Q You're not certain.
18 A I'm not certain.
19 Q You walked down to the portion of the garage
20 that you indicated with K-1?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Why did you stop there?
23 A I was -- my light wasn't working very well and
24 I was scared and I decided to come back.
25 Q Okay. Was it very dark back there?
26 A Yes.
27 Q So you came back out.
28 What happened next?
0112
01 A Well, then I noticed the limo was still parked
02 there and I went, "geez, I should let this guy in, I
03 guess, he's waiting."
04 So I pressed the button and the gate opened up
05 and he drove up.
06 Q Now, why were you going over to that area of
07 the garage at the southern portion of the property?
08 A I was going to check on that noise.
09 Q And that's where you thought the sound came
10 from?
11 A Well, it was further down, but I never made it
12 down all the way.
13 Q When you say "it was further down," towards
14 where? You mean by your guest house, on that path?
15 A Yes; right.
16 Q When you turned around and came back from the
17 garage, you went and opened the gate for the limo
18 driver?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And he drove in?
21 A Yes, he did.
22 Q What happened next?
23 A He drove in and he got out of the car and I
24 asked if O.J. overslept or what was going on because it
25 was getting late. I figured it was pretty late right
26 now.
27 He said he was coming up from Redondo. And
28 we had some -- I can't remember all the dialogue, but I
0113
01 remember he came up from Redondo.
02 Oh, and I asked him -- I asked him if we had
03 an earthquake, and I was trying to see if maybe we did.
04 And he said, "no, not that I'm aware of."
05 And I said, "well, I heard this noise." And I
06 told him I was going to investigate and I felt safer if
07 someone was there, so I was going to check on it again.
08 Q So when you saw the limo driver there you felt
09 safer?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you thought you'd go and check on it
12 again?
13 A That I would, yes.
14 Q When you walked down the driveway the first
15 time towards the garage area, right, and walked back,
16 can you tell us if you noticed anything near the Rolls
17 Royce on the ground?
18 A Um, there was a bag. I mean, it was like a
19 knapsack, I think, kind of bag.
20 Q Where in relation to the Rolls Royce was
21 it?
22 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has pointed
23 to a 'B' on the diagram.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q Is that where you think the bag was?
26 A Yes.
27 Q Can you describe it a little better?
28 A It was dark. I didn't know the color. I
0114
01 imagine it was dark black or blue. And I thought it
02 had a little brown leather kind of square patch.
03 Q Okay. You had a conversation with the limo
04 driver?
05 A Yes.
06 Q You talked about the earthquake.
07 And at some point did you complete the
08 conversation?
09 A Yes.
10 Q What did you do after that?
11 A Well, even during that, I think it was during
12 that that I also -- I helped load up a golf bag in the
13 trunk of the limo.
14 Q Okay.
15 A And then I went back there, went a little
16 further down the path, and then I got -- there's a gate
17 that if I --
18 Q So, wait.
19 You had loaded a golf bag into the trunk of
20 the limo?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And then you walked back to the garage area.
23 A Yes.
24 Q And you went down to that southern portion
25 that you've marked with a K-1 earlier?
26 A Yes.
27 Q You had a flashlight with you?
28 A Yes, I did.
0115
01 Q And did you -- you indicate now that there's a
02 gate there?
03 A There's two gates, right. One --
04 Q Where is the first one?
05 A The first one's right about there.
06 Q For the record, why don't you put 'G' --
07 actually, put a G-1.
08 A You want me to mark the second one too?
09 Q Yes. There's a second gate?
10 A G-2.
11 Q Thank you.
12 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness has placed
13 G-1 and G-2.
14 BY MS. CLARK:
15 Q G-1 is closer to the Rockingham exit; right?
16 A Yes. It's not really working.
17 Q It's not really working?
18 A I mean, you have to pick it up, kind of, to
19 move it.
20 Q Is it locked, kept locked?
21 A No. It's just kind of leaning up against a
22 tree.
23 Q The second gate, where is that in relation to
24 your guest house?
25 A How close is it to my guest house?
26 Q Yes.
27 A About ten feet.
28 Q And how do you open that gate, the second one?
0116
01 A It swings open.
02 Q This time did you swing it up?
03 A No, I got to the gate and I turned around.
04 Q Why?
05 A I had this little pen light flashlight, it was
06 very dim and I was scared, so I walked back up.
07 Q So you never went all the way down to where
08 you thought you heard the noises come from?
09 A No.
10 MS. CLARK: I have here a series of photographs,
11 Your Honor. Again, ask they be marked People's 9.
12 They are labeled 'A' through 'E'.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 BY MS. CLARK:
15 Q Showing you the photographs that have been
16 marked labeled 'A' through 'E'.
17 I'm directing your attention now specifically
18 at this time to photograph 'A'.
19 Do you recognize the location being shown in
20 that photograph, sir?
21 A Yes.
22 Q What is it?
23 A That would be the back of my guest room.
24 Q The wall shown here is the back of your guest
25 room?
26 A Yes.
27 Q And the air conditioning unit that you see
28 there hanging over the walk, is that the air
0117
01 conditioning unit that is in your wall?
02 A Yes.
03 Q And that's the air conditioning unit near
04 where you heard the thumps come from?
05 A Yes.
06 Q So this would be the area that you were --
07 MS. CLARK: And I'm indicating for the record,
08 Your Honor, in photograph 'A', the walkway that is just
09 before, leading up to the air conditioner.
10 BY MS. CLARK:
11 Q This was the area that you never made it down
12 to?
13 A Correct.
14 Q When you were trying to find out what happened
15 in the wall, on the wall that night?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And is that the same area that's shown in
18 photograph 'B'?
19 A Yes.
20 Q The fence that you can see in photographs 'A',
21 'B' and 'C', I guess, are those -- is that the fence
22 that divides the property of 360 Rockingham from the
23 neighbors?
24 A Yes.
25 Q When you were attempting to go down to that
26 area shown on photograph 'A' of People's 9, were you
27 trying to -- was there a dog in the -- on the property
28 that night?
0118
01 A Yes, there is.
02 Q What was that dog's name?
03 A Chachi.
04 Q And were you with the dog that night?
05 A Well, when I was going to go back there, I
06 said, "Chachi, come to me," and he ran away. I said,
07 "great, great watch dog."
08 Q So you went to the second gate this time and
09 then you came back out?
10 A Say it again?
11 Q You went to the second gate this time.
12 A Yes. Up to it.
13 Q Up to the second gate that leads to the area
14 shown in photograph 'A' of People's 9?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And then you turned around and went back?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What did you do when you came back?
19 A I came back to the front area and --
20 Q Okay. The bag that you indicated you pointed
21 to that's labeled with a 'B' for the position, was that
22 in an area of darkness?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Had you ever seen it before?
25 A Um, no.
26 Q When you came back -- so you actually went
27 down to the garage area, the southern portion of the
28 garage area, twice?
0119
01 A Yes, I did.
02 Q The first time before you opened the gate for
03 the driver?
04 A Yes.
05 Q And the second time after you let him in and
06 had a brief conversation with him?
07 A Yes.
08 Q When you came back out from that area after
09 visiting it the second time, who did you see out in the
10 front area?
11 A That was the limo driver, O.J. and myself.
12 Q You mean the defendant?
13 A Yes.
14 Q You saw the defendant with the limo driver?
15 A We were all outside.
16 Q What were they doing?
17 A I think packing, getting ready to go to the
18 airport.
19 Q Did you offer to go and get that bag that was
20 marked with a 'B' on this diagram?
21 A That I was going to take it, pack it, yes.
22 Q Did you offer to get it for the defendant?
23 A Yes.
24 Q What was his response?
25 A He'll get it.
26 Q He said he would get it?
27 A Uh Huh. Yes.
28 Q So you did not see the defendant come out of
0120
01 the front door.
02 A No.
03 Q He was always out when you got back from the
04 garage area?
05 A Yes, we were all outside.
06 Q Did you -- did you discuss with the defendant
07 the earthquake that you thought you felt or the prowler
08 that you thought might be there?
09 A Yes, I did.
10 Q What did you say?
11 A I said, "O.J., I heard this noise. I thought
12 something might be back there. And this flash -- "
13 Q Were you still pretty excited about that?
14 A Pardon?
15 Q Were you still pretty excited or frightened
16 about that?
17 A Yeah. So I said, "this flashlight doesn't
18 work very well, and I need a better one."
19 So I asked the limo driver if he had a
20 flashlight and he said "no."
21 Then I asked O.J. and he said, "go inside and
22 we'll check for one."
23 Q And then did the defendant go back in the
24 house?
25 A Yes.
26 Q Did you go with him?
27 A Yes. I was behind him.
28 Q What happened then?
0121
01 A Um, went into the house and then O.J. said,
02 "is that the right time?" And I was behind him. And
03 I said, "yeah."
04 So he had to catch his flight so I hurried up,
05 got him to get going. I said, "come on, got to catch
06 the flight." So then he got in the limo.
07 Q Now, do you recall talk -- do you recall
08 having a conversation, after you told the defendant
09 about the earthquake, in which you agreed to both search
10 the property?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What did he say? What did he tell you?
13 A That we'd check it together.
14 Q And then what did you do?
15 A We were going to get a flashlight, so I didn't
16 get the flashlight, so I never checked on it again after
17 he left.
18 Q So you did not separate and go look around the
19 property?
20 A No.
21 Q Approximately how much time did you spend with
22 the defendant at the point that you saw him getting
23 ready to leave in the limo?
24 A How much time did I spend with him before --
25 three minutes. Three to five.
26 Q Very brief contact?
27 A Yes.
28 Q How did he appear to you at that time?
0122
01 A Hurrying for his flight.
02 Q In a rush?
03 A Yes.
04 Q Did you have a lot of opportunity to watch him
05 or look at him?
06 A No.
07 Q Very brief contact?
08 A Yes.
09 Q Did you see him get into the limo?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did you notice any injury to his hands?
12 A No.
13 Q Which gate did the limo drive out of?
14 A Rockingham.
15 Q Now, that gate, do you know how it operates?
16 A The -- sure. You press a button and it opens
17 up.
18 Q And did you press that button?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q Can that button also be pressed from inside
21 the house?
22 A Um --
23 Q Can you open the gate from inside the house?
24 A Yes.
25 Q When it closes, does it lock automatically?
26 A Yes.
27 Q The front door to the house of 360 Rockingham,
28 is that always kept locked?
0123
01 A Yes.
02 Q Do you know if -- who has a key to that door,
03 to that front door?
04 A Which people?
05 Q Yes.
06 A That I know, it's O.J. and Arnelle. And I
07 think Gigi, the house --
08 Q Did you have one?
09 A No.
10 Q Gigi is who?
11 A Gigi is the housekeeper.
12 Q And you did not have one?
13 A I did not have a key.
14 Q Does the ash -- strike that.
15 If you wanted to get into the Rockingham gate
16 without being buzzed in from the house, could you open
17 it with a key?
18 A The Rockingham gate, yes.
19 Q What about the Ashford gate?
20 A The Ashford gate, you can get in other ways
21 too.
22 Q Does the Ashford gate lock automatically?
23 A It locks automatically, but there's a hinge
24 that you can open the gate up that I use a lot.
25 Q So without somebody buzzing you in or a key,
26 you could still get in?
27 A Yes.
28 Q Can that gate also be locked?
0124
01 A Yes.
02 Q So that you would need a key to get in?
03 A Oh, on the Ashford?
04 Q Right.
05 A No. It's an intercom or phone that goes
06 direct -- that they ring you in.
07 Q Okay.
08 A But there's not a key.
09 Q But there's not a key.
10 A Not that I'm aware of, no.
11 Q Only the Rockingham side could be opened from
12 the outside with a key?
13 A There's a key. Rockingham I know you need a
14 key.
15 Q After the defendant left, what did you do?
16 A Oh, I got back on the phone. I went to my
17 room on the phone again.
18 Q Again.
19 Who did you call?
20 A Rachel.
21 Q Okay. Was that call interrupted?
22 A Yes.
23 Q How?
24 A Um, O.J. called and said that he forgot the
25 alarm, so I should alarm the house.
26 Q The defendant called to say that you should
27 set the alarm on the house?
28 A Yes.
0125
01 Q Had you ever done that before?
02 A No.
03 Q So did you know how to set the alarm on the
04 house?
05 A No.
06 Q Did he explain how?
07 A Yes.
08 Q And did he have to give you some instructions
09 or a code or something?
10 A A code.
11 Q And did he give you that code?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And what did you do then?
14 A Believe it or not, I got off the phone again
15 and I coded the house.
16 Q Okay. Had you ever been asked to do that
17 before?
18 MR. SHAPIRO: It's been asked and answered.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 BY MS. CLARK:
21 Q Can you describe the demeanor of the defendant
22 at the time you saw him as he was preparing to leave in
23 the limo?
24 A Rushed for his flight.
25 Q Did he seem angry?
26 A No.
27 Q Depressed?
28 A No.
0126
01 Q Could you describe the weather that night.
02 A It was about 65. It was kind of foggy, I
03 think. I mean, it was cool.
04 Q Cool night?
05 A Um-hum.
06 Q Is that a "yes"?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Did the defendant appear to be hot or sweaty
09 when you went out to Mc Donald's that night?
10 A I didn't notice.
11 Q You didn't notice that?
12 A No.
13 Q What time was it when the defendant left in
14 the limo for the airport?
15 A I don't know the exact time, but I estimate
16 about 11:15, 11:20.
17 MS. CLARK: May I have a moment, Your Honor?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 BY MS. CLARK:
20 Q Oh, Mr. Kaelin, do you remember what the
21 defendant was wearing when he was about to leave for the
22 airport, when he was getting ready to get into the limo?
23 A I'm not positive. I think it was sweats. A
24 sweat outfit.
25 Q Okay. Do you think it was the same sweat
26 outfit you saw him wearing earlier that night when you
27 went to Mc Donald's?
28 A I couldn't say.
0127
01 MR. SHAPIRO: Objection; calls for speculation.
02 THE COURT: Overruled.
03 Do you know the answer to that question?
04 THE WITNESS: No.
05 BY MS. CLARK:
06 Q You don't know?
07 A I don't know exactly what he was wearing.
08 MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.
09 THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, are you prepared to
10 cross-examine now, or did you want to defer that?
11 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, we would like to defer it
12 after a motion to suppress evidence, please.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 It's approximately seven minutes to 12:00, so
15 I think we'll simply break for the noon recess at this
16 time and commence at 1:30.
17 Sir, we will at some point in time have you be
18 returning to the stand. I'm not sure exactly when that
19 will be.
20 I will remind you, please, not to discuss your
21 testimony with anyone except with the lawyers in this
22 matter.
23 Thank you. You may step down.
24 I'd like to see counsel in chambers just with
25 regard to scheduling.
26
27
28 (At 11:53 a.m., a recess was taken until 1:30 p.m.)
0128
01 (The following proceedings were had
02 in chambers at 11:55 a.m.)
03
04 THE COURT: Okay. I guess I'd just like to get a
05 feel for where we're at.
06 It seems to me that in our discussions before,
07 we thought that this would be about the point where we'd
08 start the motion, after this witness gave his direct.
09 MS. CLARK: Right.
10 THE COURT: Is that still accurate?
11 MS. CLARK: Right.
12 MR. UELMEN: Yes.
13 THE COURT: Now, I have still yet to read your
14 entire opposition to their suppression motion. But at
15 the beginning you indicated that you're not seeking to
16 introduce any of the evidence that was recovered
17 pursuant to the execution of the search warrant.
18 MS. CLARK: That's right.
19 THE COURT: So is it a fair statement then that
20 those items 1 through 34, with the exception of the
21 blood sample from Mr. Simpson, were not recovered
22 pursuant to the search warrant?
23 MR. UELMEN: Your Honor, we have not yet seen the
24 return to the search warrant.
25 THE COURT: Nor has the court.
26 Do you have a copy of that return?
27 MS. CLARK: All I have is a property -- I have a
28 copy of a return, but the return refers to the property
0129
01 report, I believe, for the items. I'll have to go back
02 and look.
03 THE COURT: Okay. Because I think that's critical
04 to --
05 MS. CLARK: I can tell the court what I'm going to
06 be asking to admit.
07 THE COURT: Well, that's a starting point.
08 MS. CLARK: I'm going to be asking to admit the
09 glove. I mean, I'm just confining my statement now to
10 the Rockingham address, because there's no issue about
11 anything else.
12 THE COURT: Right.
13 MS. CLARK: The glove, and the blood on the door
14 handle of the Bronco, and blood drops in the driveway
15 leading up to the property. Nothing recovered from the
16 inside of the house will be offered at the preliminary
17 hearing. In other words, nothing recovered pursuant to
18 search warrant.
19 THE COURT: So just so that I understand, the
20 return of the search warrant you say -- but you'll
21 provide copies to everyone this afternoon -- just refers
22 to the property report?
23 MS. CLARK: I think so.
24 THE COURT: Without enumeration by number?
25 MS. CLARK: Oh, yes, it's numbered by item number.
26 THE COURT: It says, refer to items number blump,
27 blump, blump.
28 MS. CLARK: I'll have to look. I'm unclear right
0130
01 now. I'll get it from the investigating officer.
02 THE COURT: I guess we need to see that, because if
03 it indicates any of these items as things that were
04 returned pursuant to the search warrant, then
05 conceivably the search warrant is in issue in this
06 proceeding.
07 MS. CLARK: Right.
08 MR. UELMEN: We believe it will be in issue in any
09 event with respect to the credibility of the officers in
10 terms of the statements made in the affidavit.
11 MS. CLARK: No, it's not going to be brought into
12 issue at all, and is not by law unless I'm asking to
13 admit items that were seized pursuant thereto.
14 THE COURT: Well --
15 MR. UELMEN: The affidavit is the statement under
16 oath by the officers as to what they observed.
17 THE COURT: So, Mr. Uelmen --
18 MS. CLARK: But that affidavit is irrelevant.
19 THE COURT: You're indicating that perhaps
20 statements in the affidavit might come in for some
21 purpose of impeaching a witness that testifies?
22 MR. UELMEN: Yes, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: May or may not. I don't know at this
24 point.
25 Now, do we have any indication as to timing of
26 how long we expect or how many witnesses you expect to
27 call for the motion?
28 MS. CLARK: I expect to call three witnesses, I
0131
01 think. Three.
02 THE COURT: Can you just tell me what their names
03 are?
04 MS. CLARK: Sure. Detective Vannatter, detective
05 Fuhrman and perhaps detective Phillips. Oh, Excuse
06 me. And Dennis Fung.
07 THE COURT: All right.
08 Do you know at this time, Mr. Uelmen, whether
09 you intend to present any evidence with regard to the
10 motion?
11 MR. UELMEN: Yes, we will call two witnesses,
12 Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Would you care to give me their names
14 at this point?
15 MR. UELMEN: Arnelle Simpson and Brian Kaelin.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 Is there -- do we have any sort of an
18 indication, just for time estimate, as to how long we
19 think this particular portion is going to take?
20 MS. CLARK: I don't know.
21 MR. UELMEN: I would imagine the testimony will
22 take the afternoon.
23 THE COURT: I would think it would probably take
24 that at least, that if not longer, if we're talking
25 about six witnesses. Okay.
26 MS. CLARK: I was thinking we could probably
27 conclude it by the end of tomorrow.
28 What do you think?
0132
01 MR. UELMEN: I don't know that it will take all day
02 tomorrow. We may be able to conclude it in the morning
03 tomorrow.
04 MS. CLARK: Then I'll have, you know -- okay.
05 Probably by noon tomorrow, you think? Okay.
06 I have another civilian witness who is very,
07 very brief. I forgot. She showed up after I left for
08 court. If I could call her briefly before we begin the
09 motion.
10 Rachel Ferrara. The Rachel that he referred
11 to in the phone call.
12 THE COURT: I don't have a problem with that.
13 MS. CLARK: She'll take, I mean, I think five
14 minutes, ten minutes on direct, very brief.
15 THE COURT: Okay. For your information, I
16 received a request from A.B.C. news for the release of
17 the photographs. It was just by way of a letter. And
18 I just asked the press liaison to inform them that at
19 this point in time I was not going to release -- we're
20 referring to the crime scene photographs.
21 MS. CLARK: Um-hum.
22 THE COURT: That I felt that it would be
23 detrimental at this time to release those. And that's
24 all that I have relayed back to them.
25 So I don't know, you know, whether -- what
26 they intend to do from there. But just so that you're
27 aware of what's going on with that.
28 It seems to me there was another --
0133
01 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, may I raise something? I
02 know I'll forget otherwise. You know, I'm glad you
03 raised that.
04 I'm going to ask to remove photographs from
05 the board as it presently exists, because I do not want
06 to put into evidence the more graphic photographs that
07 are on it.
08 As far as graphic goes, the one that has been
09 shown to the witness is as about as graphic that I want
10 to get.
11 THE COURT: That one?
12 MS. CLARK: That one. And it's just for position,
13 so that they can have something to refer to.
14 The others I'll be asking to admit, I'm going
15 to ask to take them off the board. Those are the ones
16 that show evidence. The envelope, the hat, the
17 glove.
18 Other than that I'll -- so what I'd like to do
19 is take them off and mount them singularly, and I'll
20 withdraw the others.
21 THE COURT: Let me just inquire.
22 Were these particular boards, with the
23 photographs as they are arranged on them now, exhibits
24 in the grand jury proceeding?
25 MS. CLARK: Yes.
26 THE COURT: And --
27 MS. CLARK: They were released to us permanently.
28 THE COURT: Okay. I just don't want there to be
0134
01 any kind of a problem or a mix up if the photographs are
02 removed from where they were mounted and there was
03 testimony somehow in the grand jury proceeding
04 identifying those photographs by a number or a letter
05 that they will not have in this proceeding.
06 You know, will we end up in some kind of a
07 very confusing situation? And I haven't read the grand
08 jury testimony, but --
09 MS. CLARK: The photographs that I am asking not to
10 admit now were referred to only by police officer
11 witnesses, not civilians. I don't think they're going
12 to create -- their absence will create a problem for the
13 record.
14 MR. HODGMAN: And Your Honor, what I would suggest
15 is, say, at the conclusion of the hearing when we're
16 seeking to introduce exhibits, we will provide the court
17 with perhaps a listing indicating what photograph is a
18 preliminary hearing exhibit, which came from which grand
19 jury exhibit, that you will see, you will have a record,
20 if that will suffice for you.
21 THE COURT: It's fine with me. I'm more concerned
22 for a record that might ultimately be read by someone
23 else that there not be a confusion in the record.
24 MR. HODGMAN: Understood.
25 THE COURT: And with reference to the one
26 exhibit -- there was one particular exhibit, the one
27 that you did show to the people that discovered the
28 body, and even when you were walking up from the counsel
0135
01 table up to where you were showing it to the witness,
02 that white paper that you had sort of draped over it
03 sort of came away a little bit, and the court could see,
04 not specifically, but I could see just in general some
05 of what the other photos that were concealed were
06 shown -- what it contains.
07 MS. CLARK: It was a white cardboard which I
08 thought would actually -- not white paper, white
09 cardboard, which is -- I mean, I wanted to use it that
10 way so it wouldn't fly around the way the butcher paper
11 does.
12 THE COURT: Whatever it was, I could see just a
13 little bit.
14 Are you talking now about taking that picture
15 off of what it's attached to, because that exhibit is in
16 the clerk's custody at this point.
17 MS. CLARK: Right.
18 THE COURT: Do you have a problem with that,
19 removing that one photograph from the cardboard so that
20 it's not -- we're not traipsing around the courtroom
21 with all the other photographs?
22 MR. UELMEN: Well, I have read the grand jury
23 transcript, and there are references to specific
24 numbered exhibits in the grand jury; and if we're going
25 to be questioning witnesses about their grand jury
26 testimony and not be able to reconstruct what exhibits
27 were presented, it may present a problem.
28 THE COURT: That's an area of concern.
0136
01 MS. CLARK: Yes.
02 THE COURT: Do you have a duplicate of that
03 photograph that somehow you can utilize for purposes of
04 our proceeding here instead of carrying that other board
05 back and forth?
06 MS. CLARK: I don't have a duplicate now, but I'm
07 going to go and ask the officers if they can duplicate
08 those.
09 THE COURT: I mean, it doesn't even have to be a
10 large photograph. It could be just a small photograph
11 that is handed to the witness and the witness says
12 whatever the witness is going to say about it.
13 MS. CLARK: That's no problem. Let me go back to
14 my office and see if I can find it and/or see if they
15 can get me eight-by-ten duplicates, which they may have,
16 in time so I won't have to mess with an exhibit that's
17 already existing.
18 But I don't want -- I just wanted to avoid to
19 have to traipse around with it. As you say, it's true,
20 it's very hard to avoid it being seen and I really don't
21 want to. It's unnecessary.
22 THE COURT: I think at this time the better course
23 is not to disclose it.
24 MS. CLARK: Right.
25 THE COURT: Because I just feel that if the media
26 does have access to it, that they'll just -- they will
27 show it every time they talk about the case.
28 MS. CLARK: Right.
0137
01 THE COURT: They'll print it whenever they decide
02 they should print it, which would be all the time, or
03 some portion of the media would print it all the time.
04 MS. CLARK: I really agree. That's why I'd like
05 to limit what I put into evidence, so if at some point
06 there is litigation about what you have to show the
07 press and not, at least we've ferreted it down.
08 I certainly would be willing to stipulate that
09 they never be given access to it, but I don't know
10 what --
11 THE COURT: Of course, they feel that they have a
12 different interest from yours and yours and my interest,
13 and their position is they're entitled to everything.
14 And I did try to find case law on the issue,
15 did not find a case particularly exactly on point, but I
16 feel that the court does have inherent power to control
17 its own records and it is own exhibits, and particularly
18 here where -- I mean, ultimately I don't know if this
19 proceeding is going to go beyond the preliminary hearing
20 because the evidence isn't finished.
21 But at this point in time, just to protect
22 everyone's rights, including the defendant's right to a
23 fair trial, if it gets that far, the court would want to
24 be overprotective rather than the other way.
25 And I just feel that to protect Mr. Simpson's
26 due process rights -- and I could see that the victim's
27 families wouldn't want to see this splashed across
28 newspapers and television --
0138
01 MS. CLARK: Right.
02 THE COURT: -- all over the place, that it's just
03 better, more prudent, to not release the crime scene
04 photos.
05 MS. CLARK: I agree. I agree.
06 THE COURT: And that would be the Court's
07 indication, as I've told you before, and what I've
08 relayed to the press through the liaison.
09 So I guess that's where I'll leave it at this
10 point in time. All right.
11 I suppose there is nothing of a confidential
12 nature that would prevent this transcript of this
13 in-camera proceeding from being -- or not in-camera
14 proceeding; I should not say that -- in-chambers
15 conference -- because this is not an in-camera
16 proceeding -- from being released.
17 MR. UELMEN: No, your Honor.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 Then this can go ahead and be transcribed in
20 the ordinary course of the record.
21 MS. CLARK: Can't think of anything.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 MS. CLARK: Thank you, Your Honor.
24 MR. SHAPIRO: Thanks.
25 Have a nice lunch, judge.
26 MS. CLARK: 1:30?
27 THE COURT: 1:30.
28 (Proceedings in chambers were concluded at 12:10 p.m.)
0139
01 THE MUNICIPAL COURT OF LOS ANGELES JUDICIAL DISTRICT
02 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES, STATE OF CALIFORNIA
03
03
04 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, )
04 ) no. BA097211
05 PLAINTIFF, )
05 )
06 VS. )
06 )
07 )
07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
08 AKA O.J. SIMPSON, )
08 )
09 )
09 )
10 DEFENDANT. )
10 _______________________________________)
11
11
12 STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
12 ) SS
13 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES )
13
14
14
15
16 I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I AM AN OFFICIAL C.A.T.
17 COURT REPORTER OF THE ABOVE-ENTITLED COURT; THAT I DID
18 CORRECTLY REPORT THE PROCEEDINGS CONTAINED HEREIN; AND
19 THAT THE FOREGOING IS A TRUE AND CORRECT STATEMENT OF
20 PROCEEDINGS AND TRANSCRIPTION OF MY SAID NOTES.
21
21
22 DATED THIS 5th DAY OF July, 1994.
22
23
23
24 _____________________________________
24 ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
25 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
25
26
26
27 _____________________________________
27 LAURIE A. SMALL, CSR #4654
28 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
28
0140
01
0002
01 PRELIMINARY HEARING
01
02 I N D E X
02 VOIR
03 PEOPLE'S WITNESS(ES): DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS DIRE
03
04 RACHEL FERRARA 6
04
05
05
06 EXHIBITS
06
07
07 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT(S): FOR IDENTIFICATION IN EVIDENCE
08
08 (NONE OFFERED)
09
09
10 -O0O-
10
11
11 MOTION TO SUPPRESS
12
12 I N D E X
13
13
14 PEOPLE'S WITNESS(ES): DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
14
15 MARK FUHRMAN 23 58 112
15
16
16
17 DEFENDANT'S WITNESS(ES)
17
18 PHILIP VANNATTER 17
18
19
19
20 EXHIBITS
20
21 PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT(S): FOR IDENTIFICATION
21
22 8 - SERIES OF PHOTOS 97
22
23 9 - SERIES OF PHOTOS 116
23
24
24 DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT(S):
25
25 A - ARCHITECT'S RENDERING 17
26
26 B - PHOTO 65
27
27 C - PHOTO 73
28
28 D - PHOTO 103
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
TUESDAY, JULY 5, 1994
1:35 P.M.
0003
THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON. WE ARE ONCE AGAIN ON THE RECORD
IN THE CASE OF THE PEOPLE VERSUS SIMPSON. THE DEFENDANT IS
PRESENT WITH COUNSEL. THE PEOPLE ARE REPRESENTED.
MISS CLARK?
MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE A
COPY OF THE RETURN TO SEARCH WARRANT. I WOULD INDICATE FOR
COUNSEL THAT IT IS NUMBERED IN DISCOVERY THAT THEY HAVE
ALREADY RECEIVED IN PAGES 00220 THROUGH 00225.
THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE A COPY FOR THE COURT?
MS. CLARK: THIS IS FOR THE COURT, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: GIVE IT TO THE CLERK, PLEASE.
I THINK MISS CLARK HAD MENTIONED SOME PAGE
NUMBERS IN YOUR DISCOVERY.
DO YOU HAVE THOSE PAGE NUMBERS AGAIN, MISS CLARK,
FOR THE DEFENSE?
MS. CLARK: I JUST HANDED IT TO THE COURT. I THINK IT
IS 00220 THROUGH 00225.
THE COURT: THOSE ARE THE NUMBERS THAT ARE STAMPED IN
THE UPPER RIGHT-HAND CORNER OF THIS DOCUMENT.
MS. CLARK: I WOULD INDICATE TO THE COURT FOR THE
PURPOSE OF THE MOTION, I DIRECT THE COURT'S ATTENTION TO THE
NUMBERING ON THE ITEMS LISTED IN THE PROPERTY REPORT ATTACHED
TO THE RETURN TO SEARCH WARRANT, THAT THE NUMBERING BEGINS
0004
WITH A 12. THAT'S BECAUSE ITEMS ONE THROUGH ELEVEN THAT ARE
THE SUBJECT MATTER OF THE MOTION WERE NOT SEIZED PURSUANT TO
WARRANT.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
.SO THOSE ITEMS THAT YOU ARE SEEKING TO ADMIT IN
THE COURSE OF THE PRELIMINARY HEARING ARE INCLUDED WITHIN
ITEMS 1 THROUGH 11?
MS. CLARK: THAT'S CORRECT.
MR. UELMEN: YOUR HONOR, WE HAVE A RETURN TO SEARCH
WARRANT. AND REFERRING TO AN ATTACHED AND INCORPORATED
INVENTORY, I DO NOT HAVE A COPY OF THE INVENTORY.
MS. CLARK: WELL, IF COUNSEL SEPARATES THE PAGES,
THEN -- IF COUNSEL HAS SEGREGATED THE PAGES SO THAT THEY HAVE
PROPERTY REPORTS IN ONE SPOT AND SEARCH WARRANTS IN ANOTHER,
THEN, OF COURSE, IT WON'T BE ATTACHED IN COUNSEL'S COPY.
THAT'S WHY WE NUMBERED THE DISCOVERY, AND THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE
CONSECUTIVE PAGES, 00220 THROUGH 00225 TO INDICATE WHAT ALL
WENT TOGETHER.
MR. UELMEN: WHAT I AM SAYING IS, WE DO NOT HAVE 00222,
00223 OR 00224 OR 00225.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
I ASSUME THAT YOU CAN FIND COPIES OF THAT. HAVE
SOMEONE MAKE THEM SO THAT THEY CAN BE PROVIDED TO THEM.
MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR, I WILL PROVIDE IT TO
COUNSEL AGAIN.
BUT I WOULD URGE COUNSEL TO ADVISE ME IF EVER
THERE SEEMS TO BE NUMBERS COMING OUT OF SEQUENCE, BECAUSE WE
ARE NUMBERING THE DISCOVERY CONSECUTIVELY, SO THAT IF THERE
0005
ARE NUMBERS MISSING, COUNSEL IS MADE IMMEDIATELY AWARE OF THE
FACT THAT SOMETHING IS NOT IN PLACE.
THE COURT: MR. SHAPIRO, DID YOU FIND THOSE PAGES THAT
ARE MENTIONED AGAIN?
MR. SHAPIRO: I AM NOT SURE, YOUR HONOR. BUT JUST BY
WAY OF CLARIFICATION, WE JUST RECEIVED TODAY, VIA FAX, THREE
PAGES OF DISCOVERY. THE COPIES THAT I HAVE DO NOT HAVE ANY
PAGE NUMBERS ON IT. SO IF MISS CLARK IS CORRECT, THERE IS
SOME ERROR IN HER OFFICE ON NUMBERING.
MS. CLARK: MAY I ASK THAT COUNSEL SHOW ME?
MR. SHAPIRO: YES.
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, THESE REPORTS WERE VERY
RECENTLY GENERATED. AND WE ARE GOING TO BE TURNING THEM OVER,
AGAIN IN A LARGER PACKAGE THAT WILL BE NUMBERED. THESE WERE
FAXED TO COUNSEL SIMPLY TO GIVE HIM ADVANCE DISCOVERY BEFORE
THE ENTIRE PACKAGE WAS ASSEMBLED AND SENT TO HIM, WHICH WILL
HAVE THE NUMBERING ON IT.
SO THAT WAS JUST A COURTESY COPY TO COUNSEL IN
ADVANCE OF THE OFFICIAL COPY THAT WILL BE COMING WITH NUMBERS..
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
I BELIEVE THAT YOU INDICATED YOU HAVE AN
ADDITIONAL WITNESS THAT YOU WISH TO CALL BEFORE WE GOT TO THE
MOTION?
MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR.
AND, FOR THE RECORD, WE HAVE NOW SHOWN PAGES 222
THROUGH 225 THAT HAVE BEEN REQUESTED BY COUNSEL. COUNSEL HAS
SEEN THEM.
PEOPLE CALL RACHEL FERRARA.
0006
THE. COURT CLERK: YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY
YOU ARE ABOUT TO GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS
COURT SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE
TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS: YES.
THE COURT CLERK: PLEASE BE SEATED.
STATE AND SPELL YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD.
THE WITNESS: RACHEL, R-A-C-H-E-L. FERRARA,
F-E-R-R-A-R-A.
THE COURT: YOU MAY INQUIRE.
RACHEL FERRARA,
CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE,
WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. CLARK:
Q MISS FERRARA, ARE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH SOMEONE BY
THE NAME OF BRIAN KAELIN?
A KATO, YES.
Q YOU JUST SAID "KATO"?
A UH-HUH.
Q IS THAT YES?
A YES.
Q IS THAT WHAT YOU CALL HIM?
A UH-HUH, YEAH.
Q HIS NICKNAME?
A RIGHT
0007
Q IF YOU COULD PLEASE SAY, "YES" AND "NO," AS
OPPOSED TO "UH-HUH" OR "HUH-UH." OKAY?
A OKAY.
Q THANK YOU.
HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN KATO?
A APPROXIMATELY FIVE MONTHS.
Q AND DURING THAT FIVE-MONTH PERIOD THAT YOU KNEW
HIM, WHERE WAS HE LIVING?
A IN O.J.'S GUEST HOUSE.
Q WHICH WAS LOCATED WHERE?
A BRENTWOOD.
Q DO YOU RECALL THE ADDRESS?
A ROCKINGHAM. I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT ADDRESS
THOUGH.
Q IS IT AT A CORNER, OR IS IT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE
STREET?
A IT IS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET, I THINK.
Q WHAT'S THE NEAREST CROSS STREET TO ROCKINGHAM, IF
YOU KNOW?
A I DON'T KNOW.
Q YOU DON'T.
ON JUNE THE 12TH, 1994, DID YOU GET A CALL FROM
BRIAN KAELIN
A YES.
Q ABOUT WHAT TIME?
A IT WAS PROBABLY AROUND 10:20.
Q AND YOU WERE IN YOUR HOME AT THAT TIME?
A UH-HUH.
0008
Q IS THAT YES?
A YES.
Q DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
A UH-HUH.
Q WHAT WAS -- IS THAT YES?
A YES.
Q WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT?
A WELL, HE FIRST TALKED ABOUT THIS TYPEWRITER THAT
HE HAD BORROWED FROM O.J, AND HE COULDN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO
USE IT. AND HE PROBABLY DID THAT FOR ABOUT FIVE MINUTES.
AND THEN HE SAID THAT HE WENT TO MC DONALD'S WITH
HIM. AND HE DIDN'T SAY WHAT TIME BUT HE SAID EARLIER IN THE
NIGHT THAT THEY HAD GONE. AND THEN WE TALKED ABOUT SOME OTHER
STUFF THAT I DON'T REMEMBER.
Q DID SOMETHING INTERRUPT YOUR CONVERSATION DURING
THAT PHONE CALL?
A THERE WAS -- WELL, HE CALLED IT A LOUD BANG, AND
HE ASKED ME IF THERE WAS AN EARTHQUAKE AND I SAID, "NO, I
DIDN'T FEEL ANYTHING." AND I ALSO HAD THE TV ON AND I DIDN'T
HEAR ANY MENTION OF IT ON THE TV. AND THAT WAS PROBABLY ABOUT
20 MINUTES OR 15 MINUTES AFTER WE STARTED TALKING.
Q HOW MANY MILES AWAY FROM HIM WERE YOU DURING THAT
PHONE CALL?
A DRIVING, PROBABLY -- I DON'T KNOW MILES, BUT I
WOULD SAY 20 MINUTES DRIVING.
Q DURING THAT PHONE CALL, BEFORE HE TOLD YOU THAT
HE HEARD THE THUMPS, DID YOU NOTICE WHAT TIME IT WAS?
A HE SAID -- WELL, I ASKED HIM WHAT TIME IT WAS
0009
BEFORE THAT, AND HE SAID AROUND 10:30.
Q AND HOW MUCH AFTER THAT DID HE TELL YOU HE HEARD
THE THUMPS?
MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, IT HAS ALREADY BEEN ASKED AND
ANSWERED.
THE COURT: "DID HE TELL YOU HE HEARD THE THUMPS"?
MS. CLARK: YES. AND HE DIDN'T -- I AM ASKING HER THE
TIMING OF THAT.
HOW LONG AFTER THE POINT WHEN THEY SAID THEY
FIXED THE TIME AT 10:30, DID HE TELL YOU IT WAS -- HE HEARD
THE THUMPS?
MR. SHAPIRO: MY RECOLLECTION, IT WAS 15 MINUTES AFTER
THE PHONE CALL.
THE COURT: THE TESTIMONY, I BELIEVE, WAS 15 TO 20
MINUTES AFTER SHE STARTED TALKING TO HIM. AND SHE HAD
TESTIFIED THAT THAT CALL WAS APPROXIMATELY 10:20, ACCORDING TO
THE NOTES I HAVE.
MS. CLARK: AND NOW I AM ASKING A DIFFERENT QUESTION
WHICH IS, SHE ASKED HIM WHAT TIME IT WAS DURING THE PHONE
CALL. HE SAID IT WAS 10:30, AND THEN I ASKED HER HOW LONG
AFTER THEY HAD THAT EXCHANGE ABOUT IT BEING 10:30 DID HE TELL
HER HE HEARD THE THUMPS. IT IS A DIFFERENT QUESTION.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
OBJECTION IS OVERRULED.
THE WITNESS: I WOULD SAY ABOUT TEN MINUTES.
BY MS. CLARK:
Q SOMEWHERE AROUND 10:40?
A UH-HUH.
0010
Q IS THAT YES?
A YES.
Q AND DID HE -- WHEN HE TOLD YOU HE HEARD THE
THUMPS, DID HE ASK YOU SOMETHING?
A YES. HE ASKED ME IF IT WAS AN EARTHQUAKE. AND I
SAID "NO." BECAUSE HIS PICTURE HAD ALMOST FALLEN OFF THE WALL
OR SHOOK OR SOMETHING.
Q HAD YOU FELT AN EARTHQUAKE?
A NO.
Q NOW, HAD YOU EVER BEEN TO THE LOCATION ON
ROCKINGHAM WHERE KATO WAS .STAYING IN THE GUEST HOUSE?
A YES.
Q HOW MANY TIMES HAD YOU VISITED THERE?
A I WOULD SAY APPROXIMATELY SIX OR SEVEN TIMES.
Q YOU WOULD GO THERE.
WOULD YOU SPEND THE NIGHT?
A YES, I HAVE.
Q OKAY. DID YOU USE THE POOL AREA?
A I USED THE POOL ONCE.
Q THE JACUZZI EVER?
A NO.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHERE THE BASKETBALL AND TENNIS
COURTS WERE?
A YES.
Q DID YOU EVER PLAY ON THEM?
A YES.
Q DID YOU EVER GO INTO THE MAIN HOUSE?
A NO.
0011
Q BUT YOU WERE ABLE TO MOVE AROUND KATO'S AREA?
A RIGHT.
Q WHEN HE MENTIONED TO YOU ABOUT THE SOUND, HOW DID
HE SOUND TO YOU?
A HE WAS PRETTY SHOOKEN UP BY IT. HE KEPT SAYING
HOW IT SCARED HIM, BASICALLY.
Q DID YOU CONTINUE TO TALK AFTER HE FIRST MENTIONED
THE THUMPS TO YOU?
A YES, WE TALKED FOR PROBABLY -- I AM ESTIMATING --
SEVEN MINUTES. AND THEN HE KEPT COMING BACK TO THE NOISE
BECAUSE HE KEPT SAYING, "WOW, THAT NOISE IS JUST REALLY
FREAKING ME OUT. I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT IT WAS."
SO HE SAID, "I AM GOING TO GO OUTSIDE AND CHECK
IT OUT. AND IF I AM NOT BACK IN TEN MINUTES, THEN CALL THE
COPS " OR "POLICE."
Q SO WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU HUNG UP?
A PROBABLY AROUND 10:50, 10:45.
Q SO YOU HUNG UP AROUND 10:45 TO 10:50?
A UH-HUH.
Q IS THAT YES?
A RIGHT, YES.
Q AND HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO LOOK OUTSIDE?
A RIGHT.
Q WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? DID YOU HEAR FROM HIM AGAIN?
A HE WAS GONE MORE THAN TEN MINUTES, PROBABLY
AROUND 15 MINUTES, BECAUSE I ACTUALLY WAS GETTING CONVINCED
THERE MIGHT BE SOMETHING WRONG.
SO HE CALLED BACK AFTER HE GOT INSIDE AND SAID
0012
THAT HE HAD RUN INTO O.J. OUTSIDE AND THAT HE TOLD HIM THAT HE
WAS -- HAD OVERSLEPT AND HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN CHICAGO.
AND HE ALSO SAID THAT HE HAD SEEN THE LIMO
BECAUSE THE LIMO WAS OUT THERE WAITING FOR HIM.
Q THAT HE, KATO, HAD SEEN THE LIMO?
A KATO HAD SEEN THE LIMO, YEAH, YES.
Q ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN HE CALLED YOU BACK?
A IT WAS PROBABLY A LITTLE AFTER 11:00.
Q 11:00?
A 11:00. I WOULD SAY AROUND 11:00. 11:03, I
DON'T -- 11:05.
Q DO YOU RECALL EARLIER SAYING IT WAS AROUND 11:15?
A I DON'T KNOW. MAYBE, YES.
Q COULD IT HAVE BEEN 11:15?
A I DON'T KNOW. THERE ARE SO MANY INTERLUDES. IT
COULD HAVE BEEN 11:15.
Q WHEN HE CALLED YOU BACK AT AROUND THAT TIME,
SOMETIME AFTER 11:00, WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
A YOU MEAN -- WHAT I JUST TOLD YOU, THAT HE HAD RUN
INTO O.J. WHEN HE WAS OUTSIDE, AND THAT O.J. HAD TOLD HIM THAT
HE HAD OVERSLEPT AND HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE CATCHING A PLANE TO
CHICAGO, AND THE LIMO WAS OUT THERE WAITING. AND HE SAID
SOMETHING ABOUT A FLASHLIGHT. I DON'T KNOW WHAT.
Q WAS YOUR CONVERSATION WITH HIM INTERRUPTED?
A IT WAS, PROBABLY AROUND TEN MINUTES LATER
Q AND HOW WAS --
A THE PHONE CLICKED, CALL WAITING.
Q CALL WAITING CLICK?
0013
A UH-HUH, ON HIS SIDE.
Q OKAY. KATO'S SIDE?
A RIGHT.
Q AND DID KATO GO OFF THE LINE?
A RIGHT.
Q DID HE COME BACK ON THE LINE?
A YES, HE CAME BACK ON THE LINE.
Q TELL YOU WHAT HAD HAPPENED?
A HE SAID, "THAT WAS O.J. AND HE WANTS ME TO GO SET
THE ALARM BECAUSE HE FORGOT TO DO IT." AND HE HAD GIVEN HIM
THE CODE, WHICH HE SAID HE HAD NEVER DONE BEFORE, AND HE
THOUGHT THAT WAS A LITTLE WEIRD.
Q SO HE THOUGHT IT WAS WEIRD THAT O.J. HAD GIVEN
HIM THE CODE NOW TO SET THE ALARM?
A RIGHT.
Q AND THEN DID YOU CONTINUE TO TALK FOR A WHILE?
A THEN WE TALKED -- YES, FOR PROBABLY ANOTHER HOUR
AND A HALF.
MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: CROSS?
MR. SHAPIRO: NO QUESTIONS AT THIS TIME.
WE WOULD LIKE THE WITNESS TO REMAIN AVAILABLE,
PLEASE.
THE COURT: YOU MAY STEP DOWN. I WOULD ASK YOU NOT TO
DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANYONE BUT THE LAWYERS INVOLVED IN
THIS MATTER. YOU MAY BE RECALLED. THANK YOU.
ALL RIGHT.
I THINK THAT, THEN, WE HAVE COME TO THAT POINT IN
0014
THE PROCEEDINGS WHERE WE ARE GOING TO DEAL WITH THE DEFENSE
MOTION TO SUPPRESS CERTAIN ITEMS OF EVIDENCE.
WE DID HAVE A CONFERENCE IN CHAMBERS RIGHT BEFORE
THE NOON HOUR TO DISCUSS THE TIMING OF THE WITNESSES ON THIS
MATTER. AND IT IS BASICALLY ANTICIPATED THAT THERE MAY BE A
TOTAL OF SIX OR SEVEN WITNESSES TESTIFYING FOR BOTH SIDES IN
CONNECTION WITH THE MOTION ONLY.
IS THERE AN ISSUE OF STANDING THAT NEEDS TO BE
ESTABLISHED BEFORE WE GET TO THE BASICS OF THIS MOTION, OR HAS
THAT BEEN AGREED TO BY THE PARTIES?
MR. UELMEN: PERHAPS WE CAN STIPULATE.
WE CAN MAKE AN OFFER OF PROOF, YOUR HONOR, THAT
THE WITNESSES WHO WILL BE TESTIFYING WILL ESTABLISH THAT THE
FORD BRONCO, ALTHOUGH REGISTERED TO THE HERTZ CORPORATION, WAS
PERMANENTLY ASSIGNED FOR USE BY THE DEFENDANT, O.J. SIMPSON,
AS PART OF HIS EMPLOYMENT BY HERTZ; THAT IT WAS LOCKED AND
THAT THE KEYS TO THE BRONCO WERE INSIDE THE HOUSE.
AND THERE WILL ALSO BE TESTIMONY THAT THE
PREMISES AT 360 ROCKINGHAM ARE THE FAMILY HOME OF THE
DEFENDANT, O.J. SIMPSON, SHARED BY HIS HOUSEKEEPER, HIS
DAUGHTER AND HIS GUEST, BRIAN KAELIN.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK?
MS. CLARK: IS COUNSEL ASKING ME TO STIPULATE THAT
THERE WILL BE SUCH TESTIMONY, OR THAT THAT IS THE CASE?
THE COURT: MR. UELMEN?
MR. UELMEN: EITHER WAY IS FINE, BUT I WAS JUST MAKING
AN OFFER OF PROOF THAT THE TESTIMONY WOULD ELICIT THESE FACTS.
MS CLARK- WITH RESPECT TO THE OFFER CONCERNING THE
0015
FORD BRONCO, THE PEOPLE AGREE THAT IS WHAT THE TESTIMONY WILL
SHOW WITH RESPECT TO THE PREMISES OF 360 ROCKINGHAM,
THERE MAY BE AN ISSUE AS TO THE GUEST HOUSE AREA OF
MR. KAELIN.
I WOULD LIKE TO REFRAIN FROM ENTERING INTO ANY
STIPULATION CONCERNING STANDING AT THIS POINT. I WOULD
STIPULATE THAT THE PREMISES OF 360 ROCKINGHAM ARE OWNED BY THE
DEFENDANT, BUT RESERVE THE ISSUE OF THE RIGHT TO PRIVACY OF
THE AREA AROUND THE GUEST HOUSE UNIT.
THE COURT: I THINK IN THE ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION -- I AM
NOT SURE I QUITE UNDERSTAND WHAT THE IMPORT IS OF WHAT
MISS CLARK IS WILLING TO STIPULATE TO. MAYBE WE CAN JUST
ESTABLISH STANDING AT THE OUTSET SO THERE IS NO ISSUE AS TO
STANDING AND TO PROCEED AS TO THE REST OF THE MOTION AFTER.
ARE YOU PREPARING TO DO THAT AT THIS TIME, MR. UELMEN?
MR. UELMEN: I AM NOT SURE OUR WITNESSES ARE HERE TO DO
THAT.
ALL RIGHT.
WE WILL DO IT, THEN, WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER.
THE COURT: OKAY. THEN YOU MAY CALL YOUR WITNESS.
MR. UELMEN: YES, WE WILL CALL DETECTIVE PHILLIP
VANNATTER.
MS. CLARK: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR, MAY I BE HEARD?
THE COURT: YES.
MS. CLARK: PERHAPS WHAT COUNSEL WOULD LIKE TO DO IS
STIPULATE THAT THE ITEMS OF EVIDENCE WE SEEK TO INTRODUCE AT
0016
THIS PRELIMINARY HEARING WERE NOT SEIZED PURSUANT TO WARRANT.
I WILL SO STIPULATE. AND THEN THE BURDEN SHIFTS TO THE
PEOPLE.
THERE IS NO REASON FOR COUNSEL TO CALL
DETECTIVE VANNATTER. WE ARE NOT LITIGATING THE WARRANT, YOUR
HONOR.
THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND. THE COURT IS NOT -- HAS NOT
MADE ANY INQUIRY CONCERNING THE WARRANT AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
IN READING YOUR RESPONDING PAPERS THAT WERE FILED TODAY, THERE
IS AN ISSUE, AS THERE IS WITH ANY 1538.5 MOTION, WITH REGARD
TO STANDING, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THAT WAS PUT IN ISSUE BY THE
RESPONDING PAPERS THAT YOU FILED, AND -
MS. CLARK: WHAT -- I AM SORRY.
THE COURT: AND I THINK THE ONLY PURPOSE FOR WHICH
MR. UELMEN WAS CALLING DETECTIVE VANNATTER WAS FOR THE
STANDING ISSUES ONLY, PERIOD, NOT WITH REGARD TO THE MERITS OF
THE MOTION ITSELF, THE LOCATION OF EVIDENCE THAT WAS RECOVERED
OR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE. WE ARE JUST GOING TO DEAL SOLELY
AND EXCLUSIVELY INITIALLY WITH THE STANDING ISSUES.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
DETECTIVE, PLEASE FACE THE CLERK AND RAISE YOUR
HAND.
THE COURT CLERK: YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY
YOU ARE ABOUT TO GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS
COURT SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE
TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS: I DO.
0017
THE COURT CLERK: PLEASE BE SEATED.
STATE AND SPELL YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD.
THE WITNESS: PHILIP VANNATTER. P-H-I-L-I-P.
V-A-N-N-A-T-T-E-R.
BY MR. UELMEN:
1538.5 MOTION
PHILIP VANNATTER,
CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE DEFENSE,
WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. ULEMEN
Q DETECTIVE VANNATTER, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION, ON
JUNE 13, TO VISIT THE PREMISES AT 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM DRIVE?
A YES.
MR. UELMEN: WE HAVE, YOUR HONOR, WHAT WE WILL ASK BE
MARKED AS DEFENSE EXHIBIT A, WHICH IS AN ARCHITECT'S RENDERING
OF THE ENTIRE PREMISES.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THAT WILL BE MARKED DEFENDANT'S 'A'.
BY MR. UELMEN:
Q NOW, BEFORE YOU PROCEEDED TO THE PREMISES,
MR. VANNATTER, HAD YOU BEEN TOLD WHO LIVED AT THESE PREMISES?
A YES.
Q BY WHOM?
A BY DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS FROM
WEST LOS ANGELES DIVISION.
Q AND WHAT DID THEY TELL YOU ABOUT THE PREMISES?
0018
A THEY TOLD ME IT WAS THE RESIDENCE OF
O.J. SIMPSON.
Q AND WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE PREMISES, DID YOU
FIND THAT THEY WERE ENCLOSED BY ANY SORT OF FENCE OR WALL?
A YES.
Q WERE THE ENTIRE PREMISES SURROUNDED BY ONE FENCE
OR WALL?
A THE AREA THAT I COULD SEE WAS, YES.
Q ALL RIGHT. AND THE ONLY ENTRANCES INTO THOSE
AREAS WERE A GATE FROM ASHFORD STREET AND A GATE AT ROCKINGHAM
AVENUE?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q NOW, AFTER YOU ENTERED THE PREMISES, DID YOU
LOCATE ANY PERSONS RESIDING ON THE PREMISES?
A ONE PERSON WAS LOCATED, YES. THERE WERE ACTUALLY
TWO PEOPLE THERE. ONE PERSON TOLD ME THAT THEY RESIDED THERE,
THE OTHER PERSON SAID IT WAS NOT THEIR PERMANENT RESIDENCE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW LET'S REFER TO THE FIRST PERSON YOU
ENCOUNTERED ON THE PREMISES. WAS THAT MR. KAELIN?
A THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND COULD YOU INDICATE ON THE CHART WHERE YOU
ENCOUNTERED MR. KAELIN?
A CERTAINLY. MAY I STAND UP SO I CAN LOOK AT IT
AND SEE?
Q PLEASE.
A IT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SECOND GUEST QUARTERS AT
0019
THE REAR OF THE LOCATION.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, ARE THE GUEST QUARTERS ATTACHED TO THE MAIN
RESIDENCE?
A YES.
Q AND IT IS POSSIBLE TO GO DIRECTLY FROM
MR. KAELIN'S ROOM INTO THE HOUSE ITSELF?
A YES, AS I RECALL, THAT'S TRUE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW, DID MR. KAELIN TELL YOU THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF
HIS BEING ON THE PREMISES?
A NO I DIDN'T INTERVIEW HIM OTHER THAN HE LIVED
THERE; I HEARD HIM SAY THAT. BUT I DIDN'T INTERVIEW HIM UNTIL
LATER
Q WELL, WHEN YOU LATER INTERVIEWED HIM, DID HE
EXPLAIN WHY HE WAS LIVING THERE?
A HE DIDN'T TO ME. I INTERVIEWED HIM REGARDING
SOME NOISE THAT HE HAD HEARD THE PREVIOUS EVENING.
I WAS DIRECTED TO HIM BY DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WHO
HAD PREVIOUSLY INTERVIEWED HIM AND WANTED ME TO HEAR WHAT HE
SAID ABOUT HEARING A NOISE BEHIND HIS SOUTH WALL.
Q WERE YOU TOLD BY DETECTIVE FUHRMAN THAT
MR. KAELIN WAS A GUEST IN THE HOME WHO WAS NOT PAYING ANY RENT
FOR LIVING THERE?
A I DIDN'T FIND THAT OUT UNTIL LATER.
Q WHEN DID YOU FIND THAT OUT?
A I BELIEVE IT WAS MUCH LATER IN THE DAY, IN THE
AFTERNOON
0020
Q ON JUNE 13TH?
A YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
MR. SIMPSON?
A MY UNDERSTANDING, WHEN I FIRST GOT IN THERE, HE
WAS LIVING IN THAT GUEST QUARTERS OF THAT LOCATION. BUT I
NEVER FOUND OUT UNTIL LATER IN THE DAY THAT HE WAS LIVING
THERE RENT FREE.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DID YOU ENCOUNTER ANY OTHER PERSON ON THE
PREMISES?
A YES.
Q AND WHO WAS THAT?
A ARNELLE SIMPSON.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AND DID YOU LEARN THAT SHE WAS MR. SIMPSON'S
DAUGHTER?
A YES.
Q AND WHERE WAS SHE LIVING?
A SHE WAS LIVING IN THE SECOND GUEST QUARTERS BACK.
Q ALL RIGHT.
I BELIEVE THAT IS DESIGNATED ARNELLE'S ROOM ON
THE CHART?
A YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
Q ALL RIGHT
AND DID SHE EXPLAIN THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF HER
LIVING THERE?
0021
A SHE TOLD ME BRIEFLY, WHEN I SPOKE WITH HER, THAT
SHE HAD GOTTEN THERE ABOUT 1:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING AND
THAT IT WAS NOT HER PRIMARY RESIDENCE.
Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHY WAS SHE THERE?
A SHE SAID SHE HAD COME THERE TO SPEND THE NIGHT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
AS THE GUEST OF HER FATHER, MR. SIMPSON?
A I THINK THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A SAFE ASSUMPTION,
YES.
MR. UELMEN: ALL RIGHT.
YOUR HONOR, WE WOULD SUBMIT THE ISSUE OF
STANDING.
THE COURT: DID YOU WISH TO COVER THE STANDING WITH
REGARD TO THE FORD BRONCO ALSO?
MR. UELMEN: I BELIEVE THAT'S BEEN AGREED TO.
MS. CLARK: THAT'S RIGHT; THAT'S STIPULATED TO.
THE COURT: YOU WILL AGREE TO THAT?
MS. CLARK: YES.
THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE SOME QUESTIONS OF THE
DETECTIVE, JUST WITH REGARD TO THE STANDING ISSUE?
MS. CLARK: I DO NOT.
THE COURT: THE COURT IS GOING TO FIND THE DEFENDANT
DOES HAVE STANDING TO BRING THIS PARTICULAR MOTION.
MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. I THINK THAT PERHAPS I
DID NOT MAKE MY POSITION CLEAR.
OUR MOVING PAPERS DO NOT ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF
STANDING. OUR MOVING PAPERS ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF EXPECTATION
OF PRIVACY IN THE AREA SEARCHED AROUND THE GUEST HOUSE.
0022
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT
WELL, LET'S PROCEED. THAT IS --
MS. CLARK: AND THE PEOPLE WILL BEGIN WITH DETECTIVE
FUHRMAN.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
THANK YOU, DETECTIVE. YOU CAN STEP DOWN.
MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, THERE ARE AT LEAST TWO OTHER
DETECTIVES HERE. WE WOULD ASK THAT THEY BE EXCLUDED DURING
THESE PROCEEDINGS. THEY MAY BE WITNESSES.
THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, THESE ARE OUR INVESTIGATING
OFFICERS.
THE COURT: WELL. I UNDERSTAND THEY ARE YOUR
INVESTIGATING OFFICERS. HOWEVER, APPARENTLY THEY ARE GOING TO
BE TESTIFYING ABOUT MATTERS THAT ARE IN CONTROVERSY WITH
REGARD TO THIS PARTICULAR MOTION, AND I THINK A MOTION TO
EXCLUDE WOULD BE APPROPRIATE. YOU WILL HAVE AT LEAST ONE OF
THE INVESTIGATING OFFICERS, APPARENTLY, PRESENT WHILE -- I
MEAN, DURING THE COURSE OF THE PROCEEDINGS.
IS THERE SOME DETECTIVE THAT'S NOT GOING TO
TESTIFY THAT YOU DESIGNATE AS INVESTIGATING OFFICER IF YOU
FEEL YOU NEED TO HAVE SOMEBODY IN THE COURTROOM?
MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT: AND THE ONES THAT ARE GOING TO TESTIFY, I
THINK IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE IF THEY REMAIN OUTSIDE WHILE
ANOTHER TESTIFYING WITNESS IS PROCEEDING.
MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. WE WOULD DESIGNATE
DETECTIVE ROGERS, LIEUTENANT ROGERS, AND ASK THAT HE REMAIN.
0023
THE COURT: ANY OTHER WITNESS IN CONNECTION WITH THE
MOTION SHOULD REMAIN OUTSIDE.
AND YOU SAID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN IS GOING TO BE
YOUR FIRST WITNESS?
MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR.
THE COURT CLERK: YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY
YOU ARE ABOUT TO GIVE IN THE CAUSE NOW PENDING BEFORE THIS
COURT SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE
TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD?
THE WITNESS: I DO.
THE COURT CLERK: PLEASE BE SEATED. STATE AND SPELL
YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD.
THE WITNESS: MARK FUHRMAN, M-A-R-K. F-U-H-R-M-A-N.
BY MS. CLARK:
MARK FUHRMAN,
CALLED AS A WITNESS BY THE PEOPLE,
WAS SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q SIR, HOW ARE YOU EMPLOYED?
A I AM A DETECTIVE FOR THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES,
CURRENTLY ASSIGNED TO WEST LOS ANGELES HOMICIDE.
Q AND HOW MANY YEARS HAVE YOU BEEN SO EMPLOYED?
A NINETEEN YEARS.
Q AND IS WEST LOS ANGELES DETECTIVES YOUR CURRENT
ASSIGNMENT?
A YES, IT IS.
0024
Q NOW WITH RESPECT TO THE CASE NOW PENDING BEFORE
THIS COURT, YOU ARE AWARE OF WHICH ONE THAT IS?
A YES, I DO.
Q CAN YOU TELL US WHAT TIME YOU RECEIVED THE CALL
TO PROCEED TO THE SCENE OF THE HOMICIDE IN THIS CASE?
A YES, AT 0105 ON THE MORNING OF THE 13TH, I
RECEIVED A CALL FROM MY SUPERVISOR, DETECTIVE RON PHILLIPS.
Q DETECTIVE RON PHILLIPS?
A YES.
Q AND WHAT TIME? THAT WAS 1:00 A.M., 1:05 IN THE
MORNING?
A EXACTLY 1:05.
Q WHERE DID THE CALL DIRECT YOU TO GO?
TO 875 SOUTH BUNDY. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS INFORMED
ME WE HAD A DOUBLE HOMICIDE AT THAT LOCATION, TO MEET HIM AT
THE STATION, AND WE WOULD GO OUT TOGETHER.
Q DID YOU DO THAT?
A YES, WE DID.
Q WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
A AT 0210 HOURS.
Q CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THE AMBIENT TEMPERATURE WAS
THAT NIGHT?
A I WOULD APPROXIMATE IT AT ABOUT 60 DEGREES.
Q WHEN YOU ARRIVED THERE, DID YOU MAKE CONTACT WITH
THE FIRST OFFICER ON THE SCENE?
A YES, BOTH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND I WERE CONTACTED
BY OFFICER RISKE.
Q WHAT DID YOU DO WITH OFFICER RISKE WHEN YOU GOT
0025
THERE?
A WELL, OFFICER RISKE INFORMED US THAT THE
CIRCUMSTANCES THAT LED TO THE DISCOVERY OF THE BODIES, VERY -
KIND OF AN OVERVIEW. AND THEN HE LED US TO THE FRONT OF THE
SCENE.
Q WHEN YOU WENT UP TO LOOK AT THE BODIES, SIR, DID
YOU DO SO BY WALKING STRAIGHT UP TO THEM, OR DID YOU TAKE A
MORE CIRCUITOUS PATH TO AVOID DISTURBING EVIDENCE?
A WELL, THERE WAS VEGETATION, FLOWERS, ALONG THE
SOUTHERN BORDER OF THE COBBLESTONE PATH. IT WAS A
MANUFACTURED COBBLESTONE PATH. WE WALKED UP THROUGH THAT
SHRUBBERY AND GOT AS CLOSE AS WE COULD TO THE BODIES.
Q AND AFTER YOU MADE THAT OBSERVATION OF THE
VICTIMS OUTSIDE, WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
A WE DIDN'T FEEL THAT WE COULD ACTUALLY SEE THE
SCENE WELL ENOUGH WITHOUT DESTROYING EVIDENCE FROM THAT
APPROACH. SO WE ASKED OFFICER RISKE IF THERE WAS ANOTHER WAY
INTO THE SCENE, AND HE SAID, "YES, AROUND THROUGH THE ALLEY
AND THROUGH THE GARAGE"
Q AND HOW DID YOU GET TO THE GARAGE AREA?
A WE RETRACED OUR FOOTSTEPS INTO THAT SHRUBBERY
AREA BACK OUT TO THE SIDEWALK. WE WALKED ONTO THE STREET
SOUTHBOUND ON BUNDY TO DOROTHY WHERE WE TURNED WESTBOUND INTO
THE NORTH/SOUTH ALLEY LEADING BEHIND THE RESIDENCE.
Q SO YOU ACTUALLY WENT BACK OUT TO THE SIDEWALK,
AROUND TO THE CORNER AND CAME BACK UP THROUGH THE ALLEY TO GO
TO THE GARAGE?
A. YES
0026
Q AND AT THAT POINT DID YOU GO AND COME TO A
WALK-THROUGH IN THE HOUSE WITH OFFICER RISKE?
A YES. WE ENTERED THROUGH THAT OPENED GARAGE.
Q IT WAS OPEN ALREADY?
A YES, IT WAS.
Q DID YOU NOTICE ANY SIGNS OF A DISTURBANCE OR
STRUGGLE INSIDE THAT HOUSE?
A NOT AT ALL. NOT IN THE GARAGE, NOT ON THE
STAIRWAY AND NOT IN ANY PORTION OF THE HOUSE THAT WE WALKED
THROUGH AT THAT POINT
Q AND THE FRONT DOOR OF THE HOUSE, DID YOU NOTICE
WHETHER IT WAS OPENED OR CLOSED?
A IT WAS WIDE OPEN, YES.
Q WERE YOU INFORMED ABOUT -- WHEN YOU GOT THERE,
CONCERNING THE OCCUPANTS THAT WERE FOUND IN THE HOUSE AT THE
TIME THAT THE HOMICIDE WAS REPORTED?
A YES. OFFICER RISKE INFORMED DETECTIVE PHILLIPS
AND MYSELF THAT THE TWO CHILDREN THAT WERE FOUND UPSTAIRS WERE
TAKEN TO THE POLICE STATION BECAUSE HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT ELSE
TO DO AT THAT POINT. SO HE HAD THEM TRANSPORTED TO THE
STATION.
Q SO THESE WERE TWO SMALL CHILDREN?
A YES.
Q AND AT THE POINT IN TIME THAT YOU SPOKE TO
OFFICER RISKE, NO ONE KNEW WHERE TO PUT THEM, WHOSE CARE TO
GIVE THEM INTO?
A NO, NOT AT THAT TIME. I THINK HE JUST WANTED TO
GET THEM OUT OF THE SCENE AND GET THEM TO A PLACE OF
SAFEKEEPING.
027
Q WHEN YOU HAD WALKED THROUGH THE HOUSE, DID YOU
COME OUT ONTO THE LANDING, LOOKING DOWN ON THE CRIME SCENE?
A YES, I DID.
Q FROM THAT VANTAGE POINT, LOOKING DOWN ON THE
VICTIMS, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANY ITEMS OF EVIDENCE?
A YES, LOOKING DOWN, DIRECTLY BELOW THE LANDING,
THERE -- I BELIEVE AT THAT POINT THERE WAS A HEEL PRINT WHICH
APPEARED TO BE GOING IN A WESTBOUND DIRECTION, AWAY FROM THE
BODIES, TOWARDS THE ALLEY. THERE WAS ALSO A KNIT CAP OR WHAT
APPEARED TO BE A KNIT CAP, DARK CAP-TYPE OBJECT, AND WHAT
LOOKED LIKE A GLOVE AT THE FEET OF THE MALE VICTIM IN THE
SHRUBBERY AREA JUST TO THE NORTH OF THE FEMALE VICTIM.
Q CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE GLOVE ANY BETTER?
A AT THAT TIME, IT WAS DIFFICULT TO SEE IT. THERE
WAS ANOTHER LOCATION FROM THE NORTH RESIDENCE THAT I GOT A
BETTER VIEW OF IT, A LITTLE LATER. AND THEN I NOTICED THAT IT
WAS A DARK BROWN -- OR IT COULD HAVE BEEN EVEN BLACK IN THE
LIGHT THAT I WAS LOOKING AT IT -- AND IT DID APPEAR TO BE A
STOCKING CAP WHEN I GOT A CLOSER LOOK.
Q SO IT WAS A -- IT LOOKED TO YOU TO BE A DARK
BROWN OR EVEN BLACK LEATHER GLOVE, AND A -- DID YOU SAY WHAT
COLOR THE HAT WAS?
A IT WAS VERY DARK. MAYBE DARK BLUE OR BLACK.
Q KNIT CAP?
A IT APPEARED TO BE KNIT, YES.
Q NOW, AFTER YOU STOOD OUT ON THE LANDING AND MADE
THOSE OBSERVATIONS. DID YOU -- HOW DID YOU LEAVE THE. AREA?
028
HOW DID YOU WALK AWAY FROM THE RESIDENCE?
A WELL, FROM THAT LOCATION OFFICER RISKE POINTED
OUT FOOTPRINTS THAT LED AWAY FROM THE STAIRS, GOING WEST.
WE FOLLOWED TO THE RIGHT SIDE OF THOSE PRINTS,
SAW A FEW FOOTPRINTS LEADING WESTBOUND AND DROPS OF WHAT
APPEARED TO BE BLOOD TO THE LEFT OF THOSE PRINTS.
Q SO YOU SAW A HEEL MARK DOWN BY WHERE THE VICTIMS
WERE THAT APPEARED TO BE POINTING AWAY FROM THE VICTIMS IN A
WESTERLY DIRECTION THAT WOULD HAVE TAKEN THE PATH UP OVER THE
LANDING AND TOWARDS THE ALLEY?
A YES.
MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I AM GOING TO OBJECT TO THE
PROSECUTOR CONTINUING TO ASK A QUESTION, GET A RESPONSE, AND
THEN SUMMARIZE THAT RESPONSE BACK TO THE WITNESS. SHE JUST
VIRTUALLY REPEATS EVERYTHING HE TESTIFIES TO.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, THAT'S NOT A LEGAL OBJECTION
THAT I AM AWARE OF. I MEAN, IF I AM --
THE COURT: BASICALLY, IT SOUNDS -- IT IS BASICALLY
ASKED AND ANSWERED, MISS CLARK. IF THE WITNESS HAS GIVEN THAT
RESPONSE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO ASK AGAIN FOR A RESPONSE THE
SECOND TIME.
BY MS. CLARK:
PROCEED.
Q THE OTHER FOOTPRINTS THAT YOU SAW WERE GOING IN
THE SAME DIRECTION WESTERLY OVER THE LANDING?
A YES.
Q AND TO THE LEFT OF THAT, YOU INDICATED YOU SAW
029
BLOOD DROPS?
A RED STAINS THAT APPEARED TO BE BLOOD, YES.
Q DID THOSE GO ALL THE WAY BACK ON THE LANDING TO
THE ALLEY?
A THERE WAS DROPS UP UNTIL THERE WAS STEPS GOING
INTO A TROUGH AREA THAT WAS A FEW FEET WIDE, AND THEN STEPS
THAT CAME BACK OUT OF THAT TROUGH AREA UP INTO THE SIDEWALK AT
THE SAME LEVEL AS THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE. AND THEN THERE
WAS MORE DROPS SEEN BUT NO FOOTPRINTS
Q NOW, THESE FOOTPRINTS, ARE THESE BARE FEET THAT
YOU ARE SEEING?
A NO.
Q WHAT ARE THEY?
A IT APPEARED TO BE A SHOE WITH A SOLE AND A HEEL,
NOT ONE CONTINUOUS SHOE PRINT.
Q AND HOW IS IT THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE THESE
PRINTS?
A THEY WERE IMPRINTED IN RED ONTO THE PAVEMENT OF
THE SIDEWALK.
Q DID IT APPEAR TO BE IN BLOOD?
A IT APPEARED TO BE, YES. IT WAS IN BLOOD.
Q AFTER YOU MADE THOSE OBSERVATIONS WALKING TO THE
RIGHT OF THE PRINTS AS YOU INDICATED, WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
A CONTINUED INTO THE -- CONTINUED WEST ON THE
WALKWAY TO A GATE. IT APPEARED TO BE ABOUT FIVE -
FIVE-AND-A-HALF-FOOT GATE THAT WAS VERY SIMILAR TO THE FRONT
GATE THAT LED INTO THE RESIDENCE.
I OBSERVED BLOOD ON THE TOP OF THE GATE, RED
030
STAINS THAT I THOUGHT WAS BLOOD. IT LOOKED LIKE A SMALL SPEC
OF BLOOD ON THE TURNSTILE OF THE LOCK, AND AT THE BOTTOM RAIL
OF THE GATE.
WALKING FURTHER WEST, I SAW CHANGE THAT OFFICER
RISKE POINTED OUT TO ME THAT WAS STREWN ON THE DRIVEWAY AND
DROPS OF RED STAINS THAT I BELIEVED TO BE BLOOD.
Q NEAR THE CHANGE?
A YES.
Q AFTER MAKING THOSE OBSERVATIONS, SIR, DID YOU
MAKE CONTACT WITH ANY OTHER DETECTIVE?
A DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND I WERE IN COMMUNICATION.
WE WERE -- WALKED THROUGH THE SCENE AT THE SAME TIME. HE MADE
SIMILAR OBSERVATIONS, AND THEN WE RETURNED INSIDE THE
RESIDENCE.
Q DID YOU DO SO THROUGH THE GARAGE?
A YES.
Q AT SOME POINT DID YOU MAKE CONTACT WITH DETECTIVE
PHILIP VANNATTER?
A SHORTLY THEREAFTER, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS NOTIFIED
ME THAT ROBBERY HOMICIDE HAD ARRIVED AND THEY WOULD BE TAKING
OVER THE CASE
Q AND DID YOU WAIT FOR HIM?
A YES, WE WENT OUT ONTO THE STREET, AND WE WAITED
WHAT SEEMED LIKE MORE THAN AN HOUR.
Q WHEN HE ARRIVED, WHAT DID YOU DO?
A WE EXPLAINED THE SITUATION AS WE KNEW IT THUS
FAR. I BELIEVE RON PHILLIPS INFORMED HIM WHERE THE CHILDREN
WERE. I WAS STANDING THERE, LISTENING TO THE CONVERSATION,
031
AND RON PHILLIPS TOOK DETECTIVE VANNATTER INTO THE SCENE,
AND SHOWED HIM WHAT WE HAD OBSERVED AND WHAT OFFICER RISKE HAD
POINTED OUT.
Q AT SOME POINT -- EXCUSE ME, STRIKE THAT.
WERE YOU AWARE OF WHO ONE OF THE -- AT LEAST THE
FEMALE VICTIM WAS AT THAT TIME?
A I WAS NOTIFIED THAT -- WHEN I WAS NOTIFIED AT MY
RESIDENCE AT 1:05 THAT MORNING.
I WAS TOLD THAT ONE OF THE
VICTIMS WAS THE EX-WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON.
Q DID YOU RELAY THAT INFORMATION TO DETECTIVE
VANNATTER?
A IT WAS RELAYED, YES.
Q AT SOME POINT DID YOU LEAVE THE LOCATION OF 875
SOUTH BUNDY?
A YES, WE DID.
Q WHY?
A AT THE DIRECTION OF DETECTIVE LANG AND VANNATTER,
THEY ASKED DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND MYSELF TO TAKE THEM TO 360
NORTH ROCKINGHAM, TO O.J. SIMPSON'S HOUSE, TO MAKE A
NOTIFICATION AND TO GET HIM TO COME TO THE POLICE STATION AND
TAKE CUSTODY OF HIS CHILDREN.
Q SO THE PURPOSE OF GOING TO 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM
WAS --
MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I AM GOING TO OBJECT AGAIN.
SHE IS DOING THE SAME THING WE OBJECTED TO BEFORE. SHE HAS
ASKED THE QUESTION. HE SAID WHAT THE PURPOSE WAS.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
032
BY MS. CLARK:
Q DID ALL OF YOU THEN PROCEED TO 360 ROCKINGHAM?
A YES, WE DID.
Q AND ABOUT WHAT TIME DID YOU GET THERE?
A ABOUT 5:05, 5:10.
Q DO YOU RECALL WHAT PORTION OF THE PROPERTY YOU
WENT TO FIRST?
A WE WENT TO THE ASHFORD GATE. THERE IS AN
INTERCOM BUZZER THERE AND SPEAKER. AND WE STARTED BUZZING THE
INTERCOM.
Q I AM GOING TO SHOW YOU A DIAGRAM THAT HAS
PREVIOUSLY BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 7. CAN YOU SEE THAT?
A YES, I DO.
Q DO YOU SEE THE AREA ON THAT DIAGRAM THAT YOU WENT
TO WITH THE OTHER DETECTIVES --
A YES, I DO.
Q -- WHEN YOU FIRST GOT TO THE LOCATION?
A YES, MA'AM.
Q COULD YOU PLEASE POINT IT OUT.
A THE SPEAKER BOX IS RIGHT HERE ON THIS PILLAR.
AND I BELIEVE WE PARKED JUST WEST OF THE GATE.
Q NOW, WHEN YOU PULLED UP TO THAT LOCATION, CAN YOU
DESCRIBE THE ROUTE THAT YOU TOOK? WHICH STREET DID YOU DRIVE
UP TO GET TO ASHFORD?.
A ROCKINGHAM.
Q WHEN YOU DROVE UP ROCKINGHAM, DID YOU OBSERVE ANY
VEHICLES PARKED NEAR THE GATE, THE ROCKINGHAM GATE?
A THERE WAS A WHITE VEHICLE PARKED JUST NORTH OF
033
THE ROCKINGHAM GATE ON THE EAST SIDE OF ROCKINGHAM NEXT TO THE
PARKWAY, ADJACENT TO THE PROPERTY.
Q WHAT KIND OF VEHICLE WAS THAT?
A IT WAS A SPORT UTILITY TRUCK THAT WE LATER
RECOGNIZED AS A FORD BRONCO.
Q NOW, WHEN YOU WERE AT THE ASHFORD GATE, YOU
INDICATED THAT YOU RANG THE INTERCOM BELL?
A YES.
Q WHEN YOU -- DID YOU PUSH THE BUTTON?
A I BELIEVE THREE OF THE FOUR OF US PUSHED THE
BUTTON. AND WE COULD HEAR THE RINGING INSIDE THE RESIDENCE,
BUT NO ONE ANSWERED THE INTERCOM.
Q FOR HOW LONG DID YOU CONTINUE TO DO THAT?
A IT WAS AT LEAST 10 OR 15 MINUTES.
Q DID YOU OBSERVE WHETHER THERE WERE ANY LIGHTS IN
THE HOUSE?
A YES. I PERSONALLY OBSERVED THAT THERE WAS A
LIGHT UPSTAIRS, FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN
THE MOST WESTERLY UPSTAIRS BEDROOM OR WHATEVER ROOM IT WAS; I
LATER KNEW IT TO BE A BEDROOM. AND IN THE LOWER LEVEL IN THE
SOUTHWEST CORNER, THERE WAS A LIGHT ON.
Q AFTER YOU RECEIVED NO RESPONSE FOR 10 TO 15
MINUTES, WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?
A WELL, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS ON A CELLULAR PHONE,
ATTEMPTING TO CONTACT WESTEC TO FIND OUT IF MR. SIMPSON WAS IN
TOWN OR NOT.
Q WHAT IS WESTEC, SIR?
A IT IS A PRIVATE SECURITY FIRM THAT HAS CONTRACTS
034
THROUGHOUT THAT PART OF BRENTWOOD AND BEL-AIR.
Q AND WHY WAS IT THAT YOU CALLED WESTEC?
A WELL, A LOT OF TIMES WHEN PEOPLE LEAVE ON
VACATION OR BUSINESS, THEY NOTIFY WESTEC THAT THEY ARE NOT
GOING TO BE ON THE PROPERTY. AND IF THERE IS AN ALARM, THEY
ARE NOT HOME AND TO SOMETIMES USE A PASS KEY TO MAKE ENTRY OR
WHATEVER IS NECESSARY, BASICALLY, IF THEY ARE NOT HOME.
Q SO WERE YOU CALLING TO FIND OUT IF THEY KNEW
THERE HAD BEEN PLANS MADE FOR THE OCCUPANTS OF THAT LOCATION
TO GO SOMEWHERE?
A WE WERE HOPING THAT WE COULD FIND THAT OUT, YES.
O WAS THERE A SIGN ON THE PROPERTY SOMEWHERE TO
INDICATE THAT IT WAS PROTECTED BY WESTEC? IS THAT WHY YOU
CHOSE THAT PARTICULAR COMPANY?
A I AM NOT SURE IF I SAW THAT SIGN. WE HAVE
KNOWLEDGE THAT WESTEC HANDLES THAT AREA NOT TO .SAY THAT
ANOTHER ONE COULDN'T, BUT PREDOMINANTLY, THAT IS THE SERVICE
THAT IS CONTRACTED IN THAT AREA
Q WHAT INFORMATION DID WESTEC GIVE YOU, IF YOU
KNOW, OVER THE PHONE WHEN DETECTIVE PHILLIPS CALLED?
A WELL, I REMEMBER A UNIT BEING THERE. I
BELIEVE --
Q A UNIT? WHAT DO YOU MEAN --
A A WESTEC UNIT ARRIVED AT THE SCENE. I AM NOT
SURE IF IT WAS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS' RESPONSE OR -- EXCUSE ME --
FROM DETECTIVE PHILLIPS' PHONE CALL. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS
CONTACTING THE STATION WHO, IN TURN, WAS CALLING WESTEC.
AT .SOME POINT WESTEC ARRIVED WITHIN A FEW
035
MINUTES WHILE WE WERE STILL RUNNING -- RINGING THE INTERCOM.
THEY INFORMED US, TO THEIR KNOWLEDGE, THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS NOT
OUT OF TOWN.
WHILE WE ARE STILL ATTEMPTING TO MAKE SOME KIND
OF CONTACT WITH ANYBODY INSIDE THE HOME, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS IS
ATTEMPTING TO GET A PHONE NUMBER FROM WESTEC SO WE MIGHT CALL
DIRECTLY INTO THE RESIDENCE.
Q SO A UNIT FROM WESTEC CAME OUT TO THE PROPERTY?
A AS THEY WERE ON THE STREET, THEY WERE PARKED
SOUTHBOUND ROCKINGHAM AT ASHFORD. AND THEY STAYED AT THAT
LOCATION. HE DID NOT GET OUT OF THE VEHICLE.
Q DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
A NOT THAT WESTEC OFFICER. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS
APPROACHED HIM AND ASKED HIM ABOUT GETTING A NUMBER FOR THE
INSIDE. BUT HE SAID HE COULDN'T DO THAT WITHOUT A
SUPERVISOR'S APPROVAL. AND A SUPERVISOR WAS REQUESTED.
A SUPERVISOR DID ARRIVE A FEW MINUTES LATER, AND
I APPROACHED THAT MAN.
Q DID WESTEC SECURITY INFORM YOU THAT THEY HAD
NO -- DID YOU ASK THEM WHETHER THE OCCUPANTS HAD TRAVEL PLANS?
A THEY HAD NO KNOWLEDGE THAT HE WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO
BE HOME. I DON'T THINK IT WAS CARRIED ANY FARTHER THAN THAT.
Q DID YOU ASK HIM WHETHER ANYONE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE
HOME THERE?
A I DID NOT PERSONALLY, NO.
Q YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE OTHER DETECTIVES DID IN
THAT REGARD?
A NO, I DON'T.
0036
Q DID THEY EVER GIVE YOU INFORMATION THAT A
FULL-TIME MAID LIVED THERE?
A THEY DID NOT, BUT THE SERGEANT THAT DID RESPOND
TO THE SCENE WHO PULLED UP -- HE WAS GOING NORTHBOUND ON
ROCKINGHAM; I STOPPED HIM JUST BEFORE HE GOT TO ASHFORD. HE
GOT OUT OF HIS VEHICLE AND WAS WALKING TOWARDS ME, AND I ASKED
HIM -- I INFORMED HIM OF THE SITUATION, THAT WE WERE TRYING TO
ASCERTAIN IF THERE WAS ANYBODY AT THE RESIDENCE
HE SAYS, "WELL, THERE IS A FULL-TIME MAID THAT
SUPPOSED TO BE HERE ALL THE TIME
Q WHEN YOU SAY, "THE SERGEANT,'' SEREGANT OF WEST
L.A.P.D.?
A. NO WESTEC. IT WAS A WESTEC SUPERVISOR THAT THE WESTEC OFFICER
WHO HAS ALREADY AT THE SCENE NOTIFIED.
Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A. WHILE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS ON THE CELLULAR
PHONE AND HE WAS TRYING TO CALL INSIDE THE
RESIDENCE -- HE DID OBTAIN THE NUMBER -- DETECTIVE
LANG AND VANNATTER WERE STILL ATTEMPTING
TO RAISE SOMEBODY ON THE INTERCOM. THEY WERE
STANDING BY THE GATE.
I WALKED AROUND TO THE ROCKINGHAM SIDE AND WENT
TOWARDS THE WHITE VEHICLE THAT WE PREVIOUSLY SAW
WHEN WE DROVE UP ROCKINGHAM.
I WAS WALKING TOWARDS THE VEHICLE, THE BRONCO,
AND I NOTICED THAT THE VEHICLE WAS PARKED RATHER STRANGELY,
IT WAS -- IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS PARKED IN A VERY HAPHAZARD
MANNER
THE REAR END WAS KICKED OUT A LITTLE BIT TOWARDS
0037 THE STREET. THE FRONT END WAS REAL CLOSE TO THE CURB WITH
THE TIRES TURNED INTO THE CURB. IT JUST -- WHEN I WAS WALKING
TOWARDS IT, IT LOOKED A LITTLE STRANGE FOR THE AREA, SINCE
THERE IS NO PARALLEL PARKING
AS I WALKED CLOSER, I NOTICED A PIECE OF WOOD LYING ON THE
PARKWAY, WHICH IS VERY WELL MANICURED. IT LOOKED LIKE IT
CAME FROM A PICKET FENCE. I LOOKED AT IT CLOSER, AND IT
WAS -- IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS FRESHLY BROKEN; THE WOOD
HADN'T BEEN WEATHERIZED, THE EXPOSED PART
I WALKED AROUND THE VEHICLE, AND I HAD A SMALL
FLASHLIGHT, THE TYPE YOU JUST PUT ON YOUR BELT,
VERY SMALL. I WAS LOOKING OVER THE VEHICLE FROM THE
FRONT, AND I CAME TO THE DRIVER'S DOOR THAT WAS ABOUT AN
EIGHTH OF AN INCH TO A QUARTER OF AN INCH SQUARE, ROUND.
AND I BELIEVED THAT TO BE BLOOD
Q NOW THIS CAR--THIS FORD BRONCO YOU ARE DESCRIBING,
IT WAS PARKED WHERE?
A IT WAS PARKED NORTHBOUND ON ROCKINGHAM, JUST
NORTH OF THE ROCKINGHAM GATE TO 360 NORTH
ROCKINGHAM, ADJACENT TO THE EAST CURB OF ROCKINGHAM
Q SO IT WAS ON THE STREET? IT WAS NOT INSIDE THE GATE?
A YES, MA'AM
Q SHOWING YOU A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS THAT HAVE
PREVIOUSLY BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 8, I ASK YOU
IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE VEHICLE BEING SHOWN IN THE
PHOTOGRAPH LABELED 'A' AND 'B'
0038
A YES, I DO
Q WHAT IS IT?
A THAT'S THE FORD BRONCO THAT I OBERVED PARKED ON
ROCKINGHAM THE MORNING OF THE 13TH
Q THAT'S THE ONE YOU ARE DESCRIBING THAT YOU LOOKED
AT WITH YOUR SMALL PEN LIGHT?
A YES
Q CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IS SHOWN IN PHOTOGRAPH 'B'
A IN PHOTOGRAPH B, THE SMALL RED STAIN HERE IS THE
STAIN THAT I SAW I BELIEVED WAS BLOOD. AND THIS IS RIGHT
ABOVE THE DRIVER'S SIDE DOOR HANDLE
Q AND WHAT ELSE DID YOU SEE?
A AT THAT TIME THERE WAS -- I INSPECTED THE DOOR
MORE CLOSELY. I GOT DOWN ON THE GROUND AND LOOKED
AT THE DOORJAMB AREA, WHICH WOULD BE IN PHOTO
A. THIS AREA, THE SEAM OF THE LOWER DOOR WHERE IT OPENS
Q WHERE THE DOOR MEETS THE FLOOR OF THE DRIVER'S
SIDE OF THE CAR?
A YES
Q WHAT DID YOU SEE THERE?
A I SAW FOUR -- THREE OR FOUR LITTLE LINES,
RED-STAINED LINES, THAT LOOKED LIKE A BRUSH MARK
WHICH ALSO LOOKED LIKE BLOOD. THEY WERE VERY SMALL,
ABOUT A QUARTER OF AN INCH LONG
Q WAS THE CAR MUDDIED AND DIRTY?
A NO, NOT AT ALL. VERY CLEAR
Q WAS IT AS YOU SEE IT IN PHOTOGRAPH A?
A YES
039
Q DID YOU ATTEMPT TO FIND OUT WHO THAT CAR BELONGED
TO?
A I ULTIMATELY DID RUN THE LICENSE PLATE VIA MY
RADIO. THE DMV CAME BACK TO HERTZ RENT-A-CAR.
Q WAS THERE ANYWAY OF DETERMINING WHO WAS
SUPPOSED TO BE IN POSSESSION OF IT AT THE TIME
THAT YOU WERE SEEING IT?
A WELL, AFTER I OBSERVED THIS STAIN ON THE DRIVER'S
DOOR, I LOOKED IN THE INTERIOR OF THE VEHICLE -- I LOOKED
CLOSELY IN THIS AREA RIGHT HERE. IT IS TINTED AND YOU CAN SEE
THAT THERE -- I PRESSED MY FLASHLIGHT AGAINST IT, AND I
OBSERVED A PACKAGE IN THE REAR CARGO AREA, ALL THE
WAY IN THE REAR. IT WAS A PACKAGE THAT WAS ADDRESSED IN
HANDWRITING TO O.J. SIMPSON. I BELIEVE IT WAS CARE OF
HIS --OF KATHY.
Q CAN YOU RECALL WHETHER IT WAS ADDRESSED TO O.J.
SIMPSON OR TO A BUSINESS IN THAT NAME?
MR. SHAPIRO: HE HAS ALREADY ANSWERED WHAT IT WAS.
THE COURT: OVERRULED
THE WITNESS: I COULD NOT TELL YOU THE ADDRESS. I DID
SEE IT JUST SAID "O.J. SIMPSON." I AM NOT SURE
IF IT WAS ENTERPRISES OR O.J. SIMPSON. I NOTICED
THE NAME.
BY MS. CLARK
Q DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING ELSE?
A YES. IN THE REAR CARGO AREA IN THE SAME PLACE AS
THE PACKAGE -- THE PACKAGE WAS ALL THE WAY AGAINST
THE REAR SEAT AREA IN THE BRONCO. AND LYING IN THE REAR
CARGO AREA, THERE WAS A SHOVEL. I WOULD APPROXIMATE
A FOUR-AND-A-HALF TO FIVE-FOOT SHOVEL. THERE WAS ALSO
WHAT APPEARED TO BE, FROM LOOKING THROUGH THE WINDOW,
A HEAVY GAUGED PLASTIC THAT WAS
0040 TUCKED IN THE RIGHT STORAGE AREA OF THAT REAR CARGO AREA.
Q WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
A I WENT AROUND SEVERAL FEET IN FRONT OF THE
BRONCO. I DIDN'T WANT TO YELL. I DID CALL.
0041
01 Q So Westec did finally give that number to you.
02 A I am not positive if he got that from the
03 watch commander or Westec directly, but I was told that
04 he obtained it and that's what he was in the process of
05 doing.
06 Q Was there any response to the phone calls made
07 to the residence?
08 A No.
09 Q So at that point, after the observations you
10 made and failure to raise anybody in the house, did you
11 have a conversation with Detective Vannatter?
12 A Yes.
13 Q What was the nature of that conversation?
14 A I told Detective Vannatter, I said, "we got a
15 real -- we got an emergency. We got a problem. We
16 got -- we don't know if we have people inside that are
17 in danger, dying, bleeding to death. We have to do
18 something, I don't care whose house this is. We have
19 to do something. We don't know if we have a
20 murder/suicide, a kidnapping, another victim."
21 And Phil agreed and we took our opinions to
22 Detective Lange and Phillips and we discussed the
23 possibilities.
24 Q So what was it you wanted to do and why?
25 A Well, I believed that we had to find out if
26 there's anybody in the residence that was injured, to
27 save their life, save other people's lives.
28 We didn't know what the situation was, and
0042
01 from what we knew and where we just came from, I think
02 it was imperative that we contact someone and make sure
03 everything was okay.
04 Q Now, what time was it at that point when you
05 were all conferring about what to do?
06 A I believe we were out there for at least
07 30 minutes attempting to get somebody on the phone,
08 attempting to have somebody open the gate.
09 While they're continuing to do that, I walked
10 over and made the observations on the Bronco.
11 And I would say 30 to 40 minutes.
12 Q So what time was it approximately then?
13 A It was probably 5:40, 5:45, 5:50.
14 Q Were you aware of approximately what time it
15 was that the small children were taken out of 875 south
16 Bundy?
17 A I don't know that exact time, no.
18 Q You arrived there again, what time?
19 A I arrived at the Bundy scene at 0210.
20 Q The children, were they there at the time you
21 got there?
22 A No.
23 Q So at the time that you were at the Rockingham
24 address, to your knowledge, had anything been done to
25 arrange for the care and custody of the children?
26 A No. To my knowledge they were still at the
27 station.
28 Q Did that play any part in your determination
0043
01 to go into the -- as to what to do at that
02 point?
03 A Well, I believed immensely we had to find out
04 if anything was wrong inside the residence. We had
05 children at the station, we had the possibility of
06 somebody being injured. We had to go in, but I don't
07 think that was the most -- the paramount reason. It
08 was preservation of life from what we knew at that
09 point.
10 Q So what did you decide to do?
11 A We decided -- Detective Vannatter decided
12 that we will go in and how are we going to do that.
13 And I said, "I'll go over the wall."
14 So I jumped the wall and went over and opened
15 up the hydraulic gate.
16 Q And then the others -- the other detectives
17 were still outside the gate; right?
18 A Yes. I opened the gate and they walked in.
19 Q What did you do when they all came inside the
20 gate?
21 A Well, we all four went to the front door of
22 the residence and knocked on the door.
23 Q What happened?
24 A Nobody answered.
25 Q How long did you continue to try and knock on
26 the door?
27 A I think that was just a very few minutes.
28 Maybe one, maybe two minutes.
0044
01 Q Did you receive any response?
02 A No.
03 Q What did you do next?
04 A There is a walkway that leads on the north
05 side of the residence back towards the pool area. We
06 walked on that stone path, passed the rear of the
07 residence adjacent to the pool, and there appeared to be
08 pool houses or guest houses, and we went down to one of
09 those.
10 Q I'm going to show you defendant's exhibit --
11 if there's no objection.
12 Can you point to the pool area on this
13 exhibit?
14 A Yes. This is the pool.
15 MS. CLARK: For the record, the witness is
16 designating the area marked as "pool."
17 THE WITNESS: And just north of the residence this
18 curving path that's designated on this drawing, it
19 arches and comes down through a patio area directly to
20 the rear of the main house at 360 Rockingham.
21 You walk past this and there's bungalows or
22 pool houses to the southern -- that would be the
23 southeastern corner of the property.
24 BY MS. CLARK:
25 Q Where did you go?
26 A I was not leading the group. Detective
27 Phillips was in front, and he knocked on the first
28 bungalow door.
0045
01 Prior to him knocking, there was louvers on
02 the front door. He looked inside and saw a male white
03 lying on the bed.
04 I remember him looking back saying, "there's a
05 guy laying on the bed."
06 He knocked on the door and the male got up and
07 answered the door.
08 Q Did you make contact with the person who
09 answered the door?
10 A I did eventually, not at that exact moment.
11 Q Detective Phillips spoke to him?
12 A Detective Phillips explained the situation,
13 that there was a possible emergency and we needed to
14 find out if anybody was in the house, and if everybody
15 was okay if they were.
16 Q And what was the male's response?
17 A "I don't know if anybody's in the house."
18 And then he referred to the next bungalow where O.J.'s
19 daughter, "Arnelle is in the next bungalow."
20 Q So that's what he said. What you're
21 reporting is, "I don't know if anybody's in the house,"
22 that's what he said?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And when he directed you to Arnelle's place,
25 what did you do?
26 A Well, I stayed with -- we call him Kato,
27 Mr. Kaelin.
28 I stayed with him and the other three
0046
01 detectives went to Arnelle Simpson's.
02 Q You eventually found out his name, of this
03 person you have been referring to, as Mr. Kaelin?
04 A Yes.
05 Q And what was the name, Kato?
06 A That's the nickname he goes by.
07 Q When he referred -- when he referred you all
08 to Arnelle's room, did the others then leave and go in
09 that direction?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And you stayed?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Why?
14 A Well, I didn't know who Mr. Kaelin was and I
15 wasn't sure if he was even supposed to be there.
16 I stayed with him and engaged him in a
17 conversation about who he was and what he was doing
18 there and a few other things.
19 Q So you were trying to determine if he was an
20 intruder?
21 A Well, I think there was on officer's safety
22 issue for myself and the detectives. We really couldn't
23 leave somebody just standing there.
24 We didn't really know much about the crime
25 scene at Bundy and we didn't know anything what was
26 going on at Rockingham, so, no, I couldn't.
27 Q Did you go into his guest room?
28 A Yes.
0047
01 Q Can you describe his appearance, the
02 appearance of Mr. Kaelin, at the time you saw him?
03 A Well, he was disheveled, he was just woken
04 up. His eyes were bloodshot, his hair was mussed. He
05 seemed disoriented, as I suppose anybody would be if
06 they were woken up at that time of the morning.
07 Q Okay. Did you ask his permission to go into
08 the guest room?
09 A I asked him if I could look around. He said
10 yes.
11 Q Did you have a conversation with him at that
12 time?
13 A Yes. Simultaneous with -- I was walking -- I
14 walked to the bathroom, which I couldn't see into from
15 where I was standing at the doorway. I walked in just
16 to make sure nobody was in there, and I opened up the
17 closets to make sure no one was standing in the closets.
18 I engaged him in conversation while I was
19 doing that. I noticed a pile of clothes to the -- if
20 you were lying in the bed, it would be the right side --
21 next to the right side of the bed, and a pair of shoes.
22 I asked him if those were the clothes he wore,
23 and he said -- last night, and he said "yes." I said,
24 "mind if I look at them?" He said, "no."
25 I picked up the shoes, I looked at the
26 soles. I picked up the clothes and I looked at the
27 clothes. There didn't appear to be anything unusual
28 about them. I put them back where they were.
0048
01 And I was still talking to Mr. Kaelin. I
02 asked him if there's anything unusual that happened that
03 night. Before he answered, before I let him answer, I
04 asked, "who drives the Bronco?" He says, "well, that's
05 O.J.'s."
06 I said, "is that all? Is that the only person
07 that drives it?" And he goes, "yeah."
08 I asked him if there was anything unusual that
09 happened the previous night. And he said, "well, about
10 quarter to 11:00, I heard some crashing on my wall.
11 And I thought there was going to be a earthquake, but
12 that was only noise, just one time, and my picture
13 shook."
14 And he pointed to a picture, which was just to
15 the west of his bed, which would be the far right of his
16 room, looking into his room from the doorway.
17 And then he said, "I went outside to see what
18 was going on with the noise and I saw a limo at the
19 gate."
20 At that point I interrupted him and I took him
21 into the house where now Mr. Simpson's daughter and the
22 three detectives had already entered the rear of the
23 residence, and the door was open.
24 Q Did you ask him whether he -- whether or not
25 he knew if the defendant had driven the Ford Bronco that
26 night?
27 A I believe I asked him, but I don't believe he
28 answered.
0049
01 I think he said he didn't know or didn't --
02 he didn't remember.
03 Q So you brought Kato into the house?
04 A Yes.
05 Q Where did you put him?
06 A There's a bar inside that looks like a
07 recreation room, a billiard room, and just to the right
08 of that as you're entering the rear of the residence,
09 there's four or five bar stools.
10 I said, "why don't you just sit here for a
11 second. One of the detectives is going to talk to you
12 for a few minutes. Just sit here and relax."
13 I continued towards the front of the residence
14 and right by the kitchen I saw Detective Vannatter, and
15 I told him, I says, "talk to the man that was in the
16 bungalow. He's seated at the bar."
17 And I continued out the front of the
18 residence.
19 Q Why?
20 A Well, I was -- from the statement he made,
21 the crashing sound and the time that he heard it,
22 combined with the blood in the Bronco, the way I was
23 feeling is there is a possibility there could be another
24 victim or a suspect that had collapsed or escaped via
25 that route on the southern border of the house.
26 Q What time was it that Kato said he heard that
27 thump on the wall?
28 A He said about quarter to 11:00.
0050
01 Q And did he show you where on the wall that
02 thump seemed to have come from?
03 A There was a -- right behind the head of his
04 bed there's a space in the wall. Right at the edge of
05 his bed there's an air conditioner, and to the far left
06 of his bed there would be the picture.
07 He heard the crash right in that area.
08 Q In between where and where?
09 A Between the air conditioner and this picture,
10 right behind his head, which would have been probably
11 two feet to the west of the air conditioner.
12 Q And did he point out the picture that he said
13 he saw move when the thump occurred?
14 A Yes. I believe it was the only picture in
15 the room.
16 Q Now, that wall that he pointed out to you as
17 being the wall that -- where the thump came from, could
18 you tell where the exterior of that wall faced in terms
19 of the property?
20 A Well, I couldn't at that point. I had to go
21 outside and become a little oriented with the layout of
22 the house.
23 I've never been at the southern border of that
24 house, so I exited the front of the residence and I went
25 to the southern border of the house and I looked down
26 and I saw a cement path a couple of feet wide with a
27 three and a half, four foot cyclone fence running on the
28 property line between the house to the south and the
0051
01 Simpson residence.
02 Q Can you see that portion of the property on
03 the defense diagram in front of you?
04 A Yes, I can.
05 Q Can you please point it out?
06 A Yes. If you come out of the front
07 entrance --
08 MS. CLARK: Can the court see this?
09 THE COURT: Actually, no.
10 THE WITNESS: If you come out of the front of the
11 entrance of the home, you're going directly west. As
12 soon as you get to the driveway, you go directly
13 south. You walk past the garage. I guess you'd have
14 to swing out.
15 You pass the garage. Then you reach the
16 cyclone fence. It's the southern portion of the
17 property, and then you go east and then you're running
18 along the garage.
19 There's a little indentation for the maid's
20 quarters. And then you get into another structure.
21 It looks like the beginning of the bungalows, but it's
22 not.
23 You go a little farther and there's another
24 indentation. Then you can see a connecting corridor
25 which is an office, stairway area, and then there's
26 Kato's room.
27
28 \ \
0052
01 BY MS. CLARK:
02 Q And that's indicated as Kato's room on the
03 diagram?
04 A Yes. And there's another way that you can
05 tell. As the bungalows start, they have a sheer wall
06 on the southern border that goes up, I would probably
07 say 20 feet -- 15, 20 feet -- and it has a single
08 pitched roof that slants in towards the pool, and the
09 rest of the structure doesn't have that type of
10 architecture.
11 So at that point I knew that that was
12 approximately that wall, and there was also an
13 air-conditioning unit that was sticking out.
14 Q Overhanging the walk?
15 A Yes. I think it was even braced.
16 Q And did that appear to be the air conditioning
17 unit that you'd seen on the inside of Kato's guest
18 house?
19 A Well, to the best of my estimations on where
20 it would be, yes. And I didn't see any other air
21 conditioning duct in that general area.
22 Q So did you walk over to that location near the
23 air conditioner?
24 A Yes.
25 Q On the outside?
26 A Yes.
27 Q Did you see anything that drew your attention?
28 A Yes. There's -- as I walked closer and I got
0053
01 oriented to where this noise probably came from, I
02 looked down and I saw a dark object. I was probably
03 still 15, 20 feet away, and I kept walking closer, and
04 then I saw when I was a few feet away that it was a
05 glove.
06 Q Now, when you went back there, what were you
07 actually looking for? What were you expecting to find?
08 A I thought somebody had collapsed back there.
09 Q So you were looking for a body?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Showing you the series of photographs, sir,
12 that have been marked as People's 9.
13 Do you recognize the location shown in
14 photographs 'A', 'B', 'C' and 'D'?
15 A Yes, I do.
16 Q And what is that location?
17 A This is the walkway. I would be looking east
18 from the front of the residence. I don't know how deep
19 this lens makes it appear you, but this is what I would
20 be viewing from the front of the residence looking
21 directly east, down the south border path of the
22 residence.
23 Q And in 'B'?
24 A 'B' is just a closer view of this same item.
25 This dark object is the glove I discovered.
26 Q 'C'?
27 A 'C' is once again a very close view and the
28 condition of the surrounding walkway.
0054
01 Q And 'D'.
02 A 'D' is a very close-up view of the glove.
03 Q When you saw that glove, did it have some
04 significance to you?
05 A Yes. It looked very similar to the glove
06 that I observed on Bundy hours before.
07 Q And based on that observation, sir, what did
08 you do?
09 A I looked at it a little closer. I noted that
10 it did not match the terrain.
11 As you can see, there's a lot of dirt and
12 leaves. This glove was not dirty in the least. It
13 looked a little sticky and moist. Two fingers were
14 stuck to the glove. It looked like it was stuck there
15 with some type of a liquid.
16 I didn't touch it. I went past the air
17 conditioning duct that you can see in photo 'A', and as
18 soon as I went past that air conditioning duct, looking
19 for the person that might have dropped this glove,
20 thinking that they were farther down the walkway, I ran
21 into spider webs immediately.
22 Q Which indicated what to you?
23 A I would say nobody had walked on that path
24 lately or recently, especially within hours, where I
25 encountered no spider webs going up to the glove.
26 Q Only after the glove?
27 A Only after the glove.
28 Q Having made those observations, sir, what did
0055
01 you do next?
02 A I continued all the way east on this path and
03 then there was a probably 25 square foot area that
04 looked -- it looked like a plant potting area or maybe a
05 place where they make -- they start plants to put on the
06 property.
07 And I looked for any evidence of blood or a
08 victim that had collapsed. I found that there was
09 none, and I returned to the location and notified
10 detective Phillips of the find.
11 Q The find being?
12 A The glove.
13 Q Did then Ron Phillips, Detective Phillips and
14 Detective Lange and Detective Vannatter go out to look
15 at the glove as well?
16 A Individually I took each one of them down to
17 where I found the glove, indicating what I saw as I went
18 and what I did.
19 I took detective Phillips first, Detective
20 Vannatter second, and Detective Lange third.
21 Q If you know, sir, do you recall at what point
22 a criminalist was called for, to come to 360 Rockingham?
23 A You mean, what time did he arrive?
24 Q No. If you recall, do you happen to know
25 when he was called?
26 A I don't have a specific time. I did not make
27 any notifications on this.
28 Q At some point did one arrive?
0056
01 A Yes.
02 Q And do you recall when that was?
03 A I couldn't give you an exact. I'd say
04 8:00. 7:30, 8:00, 8:30. I'm not positive.
05 Q At some point after the glove was located,
06 were you requested to secure the house for the purpose
07 of getting a search warrant?
08 A Yes. Almost immediately after the discovery
09 of the glove, within minutes, Detective Vannatter said,
10 "this is now a crime scene. Seal it. I'm going to go
11 write a warrant."
12 Q And "seal it" means what?
13 A Protect the evidence that has already been
14 discovered, keep everybody out of the house, ask the
15 people that are in the house to please leave if they're
16 not necessary personnel, and to protect the premises.
17 Q And was that done?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now at the time in the house, do you recall
20 who was there inside?
21 A I can remember Mr. Cowlings was there, but I
22 can't remember exactly what time he was asked to
23 leave. I believe -- it was shortly after we decided
24 that we had to write a search warrant for this
25 residence, so I don't know specifically when he was
26 asked to leave. Arnelle was asked to leave the
27 property.
28 I believe Arnelle contacted Mr. Cowlings, but
0057
01 I'm not sure on that. I have no knowledge of that.
02 Q So to the best of your knowledge, by the time
03 the decision was made to secure the house and get a
04 search warrant, Arnelle was there, A.C. Cowlings was
05 there?
06 A I believe so, yes.
07 Q Did you see any children there?
08 A Yes, and I don't know how that -- I don't know
09 whose children they were and I don't know how that
10 transpired.
11 Q But they were all there at the time the
12 decision was made to get the search warrant.
13 A Yes.
14 MS. CLARK: Thank you. I have nothing further at
15 this time, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: All right. We are going to take the
17 afternoon recess. We'll take a fifteen minute break at
18 this time and start again just after 3:05.
19
20
21 (At 2:52 p.m., a recess was taken until 3:10 p.m.)
22
23
24 THE COURT: All right.
25 We're once again on the record in the case of
26 People versus Simpson.
27 The defendant is present with counsel, the
28 people are represented.
0058
01 Detective Fuhrman is on the stand. I remind
02 you, sir, that you remain under oath.
03 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
04 THE COURT: Mr. Uelmen.
05 MR. UELMEN: Thank you.
06
07 Mark Fuhrman,
08 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
09 having been previously called and duly sworn, resumed
10 the stand and was examined and testified further as
11 follows:
12
13 CROSS-EXAMINATION
14
15 BY MR. UELMEN:
16 Q Detective Fuhrman, did you ever prepare any
17 reports regarding your participation in this
18 investigation?
19 A No. I just took some preliminary notes while
20 I was still at the scene before robbery homicide
21 detectives arrived.
22 Q All right.
23 And what did you do with those notes?
24 A I gave them to detective Phillips, and they
25 were in turn given to Detective Vannatter and Lange.
26 Q And what did Detective Vannatter do with them?
27 MS. CLARK: Objection; calls for speculation.
28 THE COURT: Sustained.
0059
01 BY MR. UELMEN:
02 Q Were they utilized in preparing any reports by
03 Detective Vannatter that you're aware of?
04 A I have no idea, sir.
05 Q Did you review any reports prepared by
06 Detective Vannatter?
07 A No, none.
08 Q Now actually you were the first homicide
09 detective to arrive at the scene at 875 south Bundy; is
10 that correct?
11 A Yes. Myself and detective Phillips.
12 Q You both arrived at the same time?
13 A Yes. We were riding together.
14 Q You actually met at the station and then went
15 to the scene?
16 A Yes. We met at the station, got flashlights,
17 our briefcases, anything else we thought we might need,
18 got into a vehicle with a homicide kit in it and went to
19 the scene.
20 Q All right.
21 Now, ordinarily the homicide detective then
22 takes charge of the investigation; is that correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q All right.
25 You mentioned that at some point Detective
26 Vannatter and his partner took over the investigation?
27 A Yes, sir.
28 Q Why did that happen?
0060
01 A I believe it was told to me that chief Frankel
02 was notified of the V.I.P. nature of the homicide and
03 determined that it was beyond the scope of our abilities
04 to handle it in a geographic division and notified
05 Robbery Homicide Division to respond with detectives to
06 take over the investigation.
07 Q Okay. So the V.I.P. division was called in
08 to take over the investigation?
09 A No. It's any type of a murder that would
10 generate more logistical support than we're able to
11 produce. Robbery homicide has the latitude of
12 funneling a lot of people in an investigation and stick
13 with it, where we still have cases that come up daily or
14 weekly that would interrupt a large scale investigation
15 such as this.
16 Q And that decision was made based on the
17 identification of the victim as Nicole Brown?
18 A To the best of my knowledge, sir.
19 MS. CLARK: Objection; that calls for speculation.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 BY MR. UELMEN:
22 Q Well, what time was that decision made?
23 When were you informed that --
24 MS. CLARK: Objection; irrelevant.
25 THE COURT: Mr. Uelmen, you can finish your
26 question.
27 BY MR. UELMEN:
28 Q What time were you informed that Detective
0061
01 Vannatter and Detective Lange were taking over the case?
02 A I would probably say within an hour of my
03 arrival.
04 Q Had Detective Vannatter or Detective Lange
05 arrived at the scene yet when you were informed of that?
06 A No. I believe they arrived at -- Vannatter
07 arrived at approximately 4:00, and I believe Detective
08 Lange arrived at about 4:25.
09 Q Now when you arrived, had the scene already
10 been secured?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Could you describe what "securing the scene"
13 means? What does that term mean?
14 A Well, the streets were closed off at Dorothy
15 and Bundy. The street to the north, one block to the
16 north. The alleys to the rear had been secured. The
17 front of the residence, there was no traffic going
18 northbound on Bundy from Dorothy. The residence had
19 been secured with officers to the rear. Officers to
20 the front.
21 There was a uniformed sergeant at the scene.
22 I believe -- I believe there were six officers that were
23 at the scene. It was secured with crime tape, the
24 "please do not cross" tape, the yellow tape, at all
25 those locations.
26 Q So essentially securing a scene means that it
27 is totally blocked off so that no one other than the
28 officers in charge have access to the scene; is that
0062
01 correct?
02 A Yes. We try to preserve it as much as
03 possible.
04 Q Okay. And I believe you indicated that
05 rather than walk through the scene or the portion of the
06 scene where the victims were located, in order not to
07 disturb that, you walked -- you went around to the back?
08 A Yes. The scene didn't appear that it would
09 have been feasible to try to dodge evidence or the blood
10 of the victim -- victims.
11 We had to go around. It was too much of a
12 jockey of -- too much of a balancing act to try to get
13 around that. That was not feasible. We could have
14 entered from the rear.
15 Q Now when you went to the rear, you indicated
16 you went in through the garage?
17 A Yes.
18 Q The garage door was open?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Had that been opened by officers or was it
21 open at the time they arrived at the scene?
22 A I'm not positive on how it was opened or who
23 opened it. I know that the officers got it open
24 through the switch inside, and I do not know how that
25 took place.
26 I was informed that one of the -- I believe
27 one of the children showed the officer where the switch
28 was, and I'm not positive on that.
0063
01 Q So you actually went in through the house then
02 and approached the crime scene from the rear?
03 A I went in from the garage, walked next to the
04 white Ferrari that was parked in the garage, and the
05 door to the lower level of the house was open. I
06 walked directly into a stairway and I entered, and that
07 placed me inside the kitchen.
08 Q From the kitchen, you went out to the walkway
09 beside the condo?
10 A Well, I was walking rather slowly. I was
11 looking around.
12 Although officer Riske was leading us into
13 this, showing us the scene from what he discovered, we
14 were walking slowly and we were looking for anything
15 that would appear to be evidence or something that could
16 possibly be evidence.
17 And then, yes, we did walk from the interior
18 to the exterior of the front door.
19 Q Now, at this point it was still dark outside?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Had any lights been set up to illuminate the
22 scene of the homicide?
23 A No. The lights in the open front door were
24 cascading down onto the two victims, onto the stairway.
25 Q All right.
26 And I believe you indicated that you walked
27 out onto the sidewalk overlooking the scene where the
28 bodies were located?
0064
01 A Yes, yes.
02 Q How far would you say you were from where the
03 bodies were located?
04 A I was directly above the female victim, which
05 was probably three feet. The male victim would have
06 been ten feet, twelve feet.
07 Q All right.
08 And from that vantage point, you first
09 observed the glove that you told us about?
10 A Not first, no.
11 Q When did you first observe it?
12 A We had flashlights. We were looking at the
13 female victim. We looked at the male victim.
14 I noticed the glove when I walked around to
15 the -- after I exited the residence the first time and
16 walked around to the side -- or the north side, north
17 perimeter of 875 Bundy.
18 There's an iron fence and through that iron
19 fence you can get very close to the male victim. And
20 looking there I could see them down at his feet.
21 Q All right.
22 The glove was located at the feet of the male
23 victim?
24 A Yes.
25 Q What --
26 A At the foot. At one of the feet.
27 Q Was it obscured by any sort of plant?
28 A There was a plant that kind of cascaded over
0065
01 the top of one portion of it, yes. That's why it was
02 easier to see from that location to the north.
03 Q All right.
04 We have a photo which I will ask be marked as
05 Defense exhibit 'B'.
06 THE COURT: All right.
07 BY MR. UELMEN:
08 Q Does that photo accurately depict the glove at
09 the location where you saw it?
10 A To the best of my recollection, yes.
11 Q All right.
12 And you didn't actually pick the glove up to
13 examine it, did you?
14 A Not at that time, no.
15 Q How far away were you -- what's the closest
16 you came to examine this glove?
17 A At the time -- initially at the crime scene?
18 Q Yes.
19 A I'd probably say, probably five feet. Maybe
20 a little longer than that. Maybe as much as six feet.
21 Q Well, you indicated you were 10 to 12 feet
22 away from the male victim, and the glove was lying at
23 the feet of the male victim.
24 Did you at some point get closer then?
25 A Yes. I went to the north residence where the
26 victim was almost up against that iron gate that
27 separated the property at 875 to the residence townhome
28 to the north.
0066
01 And when you walk on that walkway along that
02 fence, that was not part of the crime scene. It didn't
03 appear that there was anything that transpired on that
04 location. You can walk there and get a very good view
05 of the male victim and everything to his east.
06 Q Now after Detective Vannatter arrived -- and I
07 believe you said that was about 4:00 a.m.?
08 A I believe so, yes.
09 Q There was some discussion of proceeding to the
10 residence of Mr. Simpson; is that correct?
11 A That's correct.
12 Q That decision was made within an hour after
13 Detective Vannatter arrived?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And how long after Detective Lange arrived?
16 A It would be within a half hour or thereabouts.
17 Q And at that time detective Phillips had told
18 Vannatter and Lange about the relationship between
19 Mr. Simpson and his former wife?
20 A I don't have any knowledge of a discussion
21 about their relationship, no.
22 Q Were you present when Vannatter or Lange were
23 briefed about any of the circumstances of the victim?
24 A Yes, but I wasn't there that entire time. I
25 wasn't standing at their side the entire time they were
26 discussing the situation.
27 Q Well, who made the decision to go and notify
28 Mr. Simpson?
0067
01 A I believe it was Detective Vannatter at the
02 direction of Commander Bushie of West Bureau, who was
03 concerned that Mr. Simpson wasn't notified of the death
04 by the media or a phone call. He wanted a personal
05 appearance.
06 Q All right.
07 Now is this routine in a homicide case, that
08 as soon as you've identified the victim you notify the
09 next of kin?
10 A It's not that immediate in all cases, but I
11 think in this case if it was leaked to the media, I
12 think it would be a pretty insensitive way for a family
13 member to find out.
14 Q Certainly.
15 Did you dispatch a patrol car to inform Nicole
16 Brown's parents of her death?
17 A Once I was relieved of the responsibility of
18 the homicide -- I didn't direct any units. I was under
19 the direction of Detective Vannatter and Lange.
20 Q All right. So you're not aware of any
21 procedure being undertaken to notify the parents of the
22 victim?
23 A No, sir, I'm not.
24 Q Once Mr. Goldman was identified, were
25 detectives sent to break the news to his parents?
26 A Like I said, sir, I wasn't privileged to
27 knowing of any notifications and I didn't notify anyone
28 myself.
0068
01 Q All right. Were you aware that Mr. Simpson
02 and his wife were divorced?
03 A I think I had heard it, only because we work
04 West L.A.
05 Q Do you routinely notify the former husband of
06 a homicide victim?
07 A I think if there's children involved and we
08 have the children, I think it would probably be the
09 appropriate thing to do.
10 Q All right. So you were concerned about the
11 disposition of the children as well?
12 A Well, I believe a lot of the decisions of this
13 came from the commander and detective Vannatter, and I
14 really wasn't privileged to that conversation.
15 But I would believe that I would be concerned
16 with the children and the ex-husband since they still
17 had joint custody of the children.
18 We had the children at the police station. I
19 think they were somewhat displaced by this at no cause
20 of their own.
21 Q Did anyone suggest telephoning Mr. Simpson to
22 notify him?
23 A I'm sorry, I wasn't privileged to the
24 discussion about notification at all.
25 Q Well, just explain to me why you felt it was
26 necessary for detectives to go to Mr. Simpson's home to
27 notify him.
28 MS. CLARK: Well, objection. That assumes a fact
0069
01 not in evidence.
02 THE COURT: Sustained.
03 BY MR. UELMEN:
04 Q All right.
05 How many detectives went to Mr. Simpson's
06 home?
07 A Four.
08 Q And who were those four?
09 A Myself, detective Phillips -- we were riding
10 in one vehicle -- and Detective Vannatter and Lange.
11 Q All right. So you were the four ranking
12 detectives in charge of this investigation?
13 A We were the only four detectives at this
14 investigation.
15 Q All right. And you left the scene of the
16 homicide to go to Mr. Simpson's home at about 5:00 in
17 the morning?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Leaving no detectives at the scene of the
20 homicide.
21 A The scene was secured and there was a
22 supervisor at the scene.
23 And I stand corrected. The lieutenant of
24 detectives of West L.A. was -- remained at the scene.
25 Q Now, what did you contemplate that these four
26 detectives would do in terms of notifying Mr. Simpson?
27 Did you feel that you all needed to be there to lend him
28 support?
0070
01 A Not at all, sir.
02 Detective Lange and Vannatter didn't know the
03 area. They asked me if I knew where Rockingham was and
04 I said I did, and I led them to the Rockingham address.
05 Q So your purpose in going to the premises was
06 to escort Detective Vannatter and show him the way to
07 the location at Rockingham?
08 A Basically I was asked, "do you know where the
09 Rockingham address is?" And I said, "yes." He said,
10 "would you take us up there?" And Detective Vannatter
11 said, "Ron, Mark, you know, lead us up there."
12 Q All right. And what was the purpose of
13 detective Phillips going?
14 A He was my partner.
15 Q Oh, I see. So you never go to a location
16 without your partner accompanying you?
17 MS. CLARK: Objection; that's argumentative.
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 THE WITNESS: Well, of course we do. But in this
20 situation, there was no reason for him to stay at the
21 scene.
22 The two lead investigators were going to make
23 a notification. There was nothing for detective
24 Phillips to do at the scene.
25 Lieutenant Spangler was at the scene, and I
26 believe two uniformed supervisors and more than six
27 officers, and there was ample enough security there to
28 preserve the scene.
0071
01 BY MR. UELMEN:
02 Q So the purpose of yourself and detective
03 Phillips going to Mr. Simpson's residence was to escort
04 Detective Vannatter and Detective Lange and make sure
05 they didn't get lost; is that correct?
06 A Well, I don't think it was so much that.
07 It's just to expedite the travel to the location.
08 Q You wanted to get to the location as quickly
09 as possible?
10 A No. I just don't think they wanted to drive
11 around in the dark, and some of those streets are very
12 confusing. I knew the way. It was very simple.
13 Q Had you been to Mr. Simpson's home before?
14 A One other time, but I knew where Rockingham
15 was.
16 Q And what was the occasion of your prior visit?
17 A I went there on a call in 1985.
18 Q At the time you left the premises at Bundy and
19 went to Mr. Simpson's home, was Mr. Simpson a suspect at
20 all in the homicide that you were investigating?
21 A Not in my mind.
22 Q There was no suspicion at all focused on
23 Mr. Simpson in terms of any responsibility for this
24 homicide?
25 A Well, I wasn't thinking that. If it was
26 uttered to anybody, it wasn't uttered to me.
27 Q Now could you describe the light conditions at
28 the time you left the Bundy premises and went to
0072
01 Mr. Simpson's home?
02 A You mean the unassisted light conditions?
03 Q How dark was it?
04 A Well, it was dark. Of course, it was
05 becoming lighter, but it had not yet become sunrise.
06 Q And you had your headlights on in the cars
07 that you were driving?
08 A Yes.
09 Q How long did it take you to get from Bundy to
10 Rockingham?
11 A I'd say five minutes, maybe, no more than ten.
12 Q So you arrived very shortly after 5:00 a.m.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Now, did all four of you initially go to the
15 gate at Ashford and begin ringing the bell?
16 A Yes.
17 Q I believe you indicated that several of you
18 rang the bell at different times; is that correct?
19 A Yes.
20 Q About how long did that take?
21 A Oh, I believe we were ringing the intercom
22 bell probably 10, 15 minutes.
23 Q 10, 15 minutes before an effort was made to
24 locate Westec?
25 A Well, I believe detective Phillips was
26 simultaneously doing some of that towards the end of our
27 attempts to use the intercom.
28 Q All right.
0073
01 Now, initially you were not concerned about
02 the possibility of finding any victims or any suspects
03 on the premises of Mr. Simpson's home; is that correct?
04 A Not at all.
05 Q That concern didn't even occur to you until
06 the observations you made on the Bronco?
07 A Yes.
08 Q Now, you were the first one to walk over to
09 the Bronco and look at it?
10 A Yes.
11 MR. UELMEN: We have a photograph here that we'll
12 ask be marked as Exhibit 'C'.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 MR. UELMEN: Which appears to be a photograph of
15 the Bronco from a little further vantage point than the
16 photos that have been previously identified.
17 Thank you.
18 BY MR. UELMEN:
19 Q If you could hold that up.
20 Does that accurately depict the location of
21 the automobile?
22 A Pretty much, yes.
23 Q Is that how it was parked at the time you
24 first saw it shortly after 5:00 a.m. on June 13th?
25 A I can't tell because the way -- the thing that
26 brought attention to the vehicle could only be seen if
27 you were looking at it from the rear or the front.
28 I don't even know if this is the same
0074
01 vehicle. I can't see the license plate. It's just a
02 white Ford Bronco.
03 Q This is one of the crime scene photographs
04 that was supplied as part of the discovery.
05 Was the automobile moved before those
06 photographs were taken?
07 A No.
08 MS. CLARK: Well, I'm going to object that there is
09 no foundation.
10 That looks -- we can't -- we don't know if
11 that's a blow up. I don't know how counsel knows of
12 personal knowledge what it is.
13 THE COURT: Well, is there some dispute as to
14 whether that is the photograph that was provided to the
15 defense? You don't know is what you're saying.
16 MS. CLARK: I don't know.
17 MR. UELMEN: The source of our photographs was
18 simply photographs that were delivered to us as part of
19 discovery, crime scene photographs.
20 THE COURT: Well, apparently you're going to have
21 to establish that fact somehow, Mr. Uelmen.
22 MS. CLARK: Your Honor, I'm not trying to make this
23 difficult for counsel. If he can just show me the
24 original that this was blown up from, then I'll be glad
25 to stipulate. I just don't recognize it in its current
26 form.
27 BY MR. UELMEN:
28 Q In any event, the photograph from that vantage
0075
01 point --
02 MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, so there is no dispute on
03 this, the problem we have is these photographs were
04 given to us in no order, with no numbers, and we had
05 hundreds of them, and so we had no way of categorizing
06 them.
07 BY MR. UELMEN:
08 Q From that vantage point, it appears to be the
09 position the automobile was in when you encountered it?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q All right.
12 And that position --
13 MS. CLARK: Excuse me, counsel.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 MS. CLARK: We'll stipulate.
16 BY MR. UELMEN:
17 Q That position was on this chart right where it
18 says "Rockingham avenue," approximately where the
19 letters "C.K.I.N." are?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q Pointing in a northerly direction.
22 A Yes.
23 Q Okay. Now while you were examining the
24 automobile, what were the other three detectives doing?
25 A When I walked away, detective Phillips was
26 still trying to make some phone calls on his cellular
27 phone, and Vannatter and Lange were by the Ashford gate.
28 Q Had any representatives of Westec arrived yet
0076
01 at this time?
02 A I believe there was one unit that had arrived,
03 yes, and detective Phillips had contacted them trying to
04 get the phone number inside.
05 Q Now the photographs that have been marked
06 exhibit 8-A, -B and -C.
07 These are also photos that were taken of the
08 automobile as it was situated when you saw it; is that
09 correct?
10 A That's correct.
11 Q And these photographs were taken by the
12 criminalists after they arrived on the premises?
13 A They were taken by the photographer, yes.
14 Q All right.
15 In fact, the gentleman depicted in photograph
16 'A' is the criminalist, Mr. Fung?
17 A Yes, he is.
18 Q All right.
19 And he's pointing in Exhibit 'A' to the red
20 stain that you indicate you encountered shortly after
21 5:00 a.m.?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q Now, you first observed that stain with a
24 flashlight; is that correct?
25 A Yes.
26 Q So it was still dark out?
27 A It wasn't completely dark, but it was so dark
28 that the naked eye would not bring up most objects, yes.
0077
01 Q So without the flashlight to illuminate it,
02 you would not have observed this stain at that time?
03 A I can't say that I wouldn't have, but using
04 the flashlight, it aided, it came to the forefront of
05 what I was viewing.
06 Q Were there other stains elsewhere on the
07 automobile that you also observed at that time?
08 A Yes. I saw four reddish stains, very thin
09 lines, in photo 'A'. Right down where the door swings
10 open and the frame is painted, where there's a door
11 sill, there's four little lines, three or four.
12 Q Four brush marks, you indicated?
13 A They appeared to be brush marks.
14 Q And they were about a quarter inch long?
15 A From what I could see, yes.
16 Q Were any photographs taken of those stains?
17 A I believe there were. But as I said before,
18 I wasn't directing the photographer.
19 Q Are those stains visible in any of photographs
20 there?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you call those stains particularly to the
23 attention of Detective Vannatter or any of the other
24 detectives?
25 A I brought it to the attention of Vannatter and
26 Lange, yes.
27 Q At the time you discovered them?
28 A Yes, sir.
0078
01 Q Did you call it to the attention of any of the
02 criminalists who later arrived at the scene?
03 A I was not directing criminalists on the
04 Bronco. I did observe -- I believe I did observe photo
05 'A' being taken, but not from that angle.
06 Other than that, I did not participate in the
07 criminalists being directed to evidence.
08 Q Do you have any explanation then why these
09 stains are not referred to in any of the subsequent
10 reports?
11 A Not at all, sir.
12 Q Were there also some coffee stains on the car?
13 A Coffee stains?
14 Q Coffee stains.
15 A That morning?
16 Q Yes.
17 A No, none at all.
18 Q You did not observe any coffee stains?
19 A No. The car was very clean.
20 Q Now, you indicated that you believe these
21 stains to be blood?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Could you explain why you came to that
24 conclusion.
25 A Just the appearance of the stain. It looked
26 like a red translucent stain that when you see dried
27 blood, that's what it looks like.
28 Q Well, does dried blood look any different than
0079
01 dried taco sauce?
02 A I don't take much note of dried taco sauce too
03 many times, so I wouldn't know.
04 Q So it was just the color of the stain that led
05 you to believe it was blood?
06 A The color and just where it was, yes.
07 Q And in fact, there are a number of other
08 substances that would leave stains of the same color and
09 texture as blood, are there not?
10 A Oh, I'm sure there is, yes; dozens, hundreds.
11 Q Did you come to any conclusion whether this
12 was human blood or animal blood?
13 A I can't make that conclusion without a test.
14 Q You can't tell just by looking whether blood
15 is from a human or from an animal.
16 A No, sir.
17 Q And the stain that you're referring to at the
18 door handle is pictured in photograph 'B'; is that
19 correct?
20 A That's correct.
21 Q So it's this quarter inch speck about two
22 inches above the door handle?
23 A That would be fairly accurate, yes.
24 Q Now, after observing that speck, I believe you
25 indicated that you became quite concerned that you may
26 have a murder or a suicide on the premises at 360 north
27 Rockingham?
28 A That, plus we might have an additional victim.
0080
01 Q All right.
02 What was it about this stain that led you to
03 that conclusion?
04 A Well, it wasn't just the stain. I think it
05 was the totality of what I was seeing.
06 The vehicle was carelessly, haphazardly
07 parked. It just didn't look right. It was -- looked
08 like it was quickly turned into the curb.
09 The rear end was jutting out into the street
10 several inches, if not maybe a foot farther than the
11 front. The right tires were turned into the curb.
12 There's no parallel parking here.
13 The person could drive right past his own
14 driveway to park the vehicle. The --
15 Q Well, surely whenever you see an automobile
16 parked somewhat askance in front of a home, you don't
17 conclude that there may be a murder or suicide on the
18 premises, do you?
19 A No, but when I'm coming from a double homicide
20 and I find blood on a vehicle and then the haphazard way
21 it was parked, I find a shovel and heavy plastic in the
22 rear cargo area, I do have a concern for what do we have
23 at this point, what is going on.
24 Q The shovel and the heavy plastic gave rise to
25 these concerns for you as well?
26 A Well, yes, sir. I did not know what the
27 circumstances were at Bundy. That scene gave more
28 questions than answers.
0081
01 And we did not know if we did not have a
02 kidnapping at this point. We were virtually very much
03 in the dark as to what the Rockingham address meant and
04 what this blood meant.
05 Q All right.
06 I'm still somewhat puzzled, detective, by why
07 what you saw on or in the car led you to conclude there
08 may be a serious crime afoot on the premises.
09 What connection did you see with the premises
10 that you were about to enter?
11 A Well, I think most of these things by
12 themselves, excluding the blood, would not mean a lot.
13 The vehicle parked that way by itself would not mean a
14 lot. The shovel, the heavy plastic would not mean a
15 lot.
16 The blood concerned me, and then when you
17 couple all these items together with the package
18 addressed to Mr. Simpson at that address, coming from a
19 double homicide at his ex-wife's house, the possibility
20 to me of a kidnap victim that got away from the scene, a
21 murder/suicide, a hostage situation, I think they were
22 all things that I have to consider and eliminate.
23 Q So the blood on the vehicle led you
24 immediately to make some connection between this vehicle
25 and the scene of the homicide you had left?
26 A Well, I think the coincidence was more than a
27 coincidence.
28 Whoever was driving this vehicle had blood
0082
01 from themselves or they were -- or they had blood from
02 another person.
03 Q Well, did that lead you to suspect then that
04 perhaps the person who had driven that vehicle to the
05 Rockingham address had been somehow involved in the
06 homicide that you had observed at the Bundy address?
07 A They could have been involved as a victim,
08 they could have been involved as a suspect, as a
09 hostage, as a kidnap victim.
10 I did not know, sir, and I could not conclude
11 that from standing on the street.
12 Q I see.
13 So the conclusion you came to was that whoever
14 had been driving that vehicle was likely to be in the
15 premises at Rockingham and have some connection, either
16 as a victim or a suspect, in the homicide you had just
17 left.
18 A That, or they had information.
19 As I said before, I don't know how that blood
20 got on that vehicle, and I don't know who drove the
21 vehicle. I had my concerns and I called the three
22 other detectives over to show them my observations.
23 Q All right.
24 Now, at this time you knew that the homicide
25 you had left at Bundy had occurred prior to midnight the
26 night before; is that correct?
27 A Yes.
28 Q So you were aware then that at least five
0083
01 hours and perhaps six or seven hours had elapsed since
02 the time of the homicide that you observed on Bundy.
03 A That's correct.
04 Q Was the stain what suggested to you the
05 immediacy of going directly into the premises at 360
06 north Rockingham?
07 A Oh, I think the totality of circumstances, as
08 a total picture, gave me the concerns that I shared with
09 Detective Vannatter, and we discussed those concerns.
10 And we both agreed that we had a very sensitive
11 emergency type situation that we had to do something.
12 We could not just stand on the street.
13
0085
1 WE MET AT THE CORNER OF ASHFORD AND ROCKINGHAM.
I TOLD THEM WHAT I HAD DISCOVERED. I SAID "I BELIEVE I FOUND
2 SOME BLOOD ON THE BRONCO."
I SHOWED ALL THREE OF THEM WHAT I HAD FOUND, AND
3 DETECTIVES LANG AND PHILLIPS RETURNED TO THE ASHFORD GATE,
STILL ATTEMPTING TO RAISE SOMEONE INSIDE THE HOUSE. DETECTIVE
4 VANNATTER AND MYSELF DISCUSSED THE SITUATION AT THAT POINT,
JUST SEVERAL FEET FROM IN FRONT OF THE BRONCO.
5 Q WHEN YOU SAID THEY WERE TRYING TO RAISE SOMEONE
FROM THE HOUSE, BY WHAT MEANS WERE THEY DOING THAT?
6 A I BELIEVE THEY WENT BACK TO THE ASHFORD GATE.
AND I KNOW DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS TRYING TO CALL SOMEBODY IN
7 THE RESIDENCE. I DON'T KNOW IF HE CEASED THAT ATTEMPT AT THAT
TIME OR CONTINUED.
8 Q DID YOU HAVE IN YOUR POSSESSION, OR TO YOUR
KNOWLEDGE DID THE OTHER DETECTIVES HAVE IN THEIR POSSESSION AT
9 THAT TIME A PHONE NUMBER FOR THE HOUSE ITSELF?
A YES, I AM ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT RON PHILLIPS HAD
10 ALREADY ACQUIRED A PHONE NUMBER INSIDE THE RESIDENCE AND WAS
TRYING, ON HIS CELLULAR PHONE, TO GET SOMEBODY TO ANSWER THE
11 PHONE.
Q SO WESTEC DID FINALLY GIVE THAT NUMBER TO YOU?
12 A I AM NOT POSITIVE IF HE GOT THAT FROM THE WATCH
COMMANDER OR WESTEC DIRECTLY, BUT I WAS TOLD THAT HE OBTAINED
13 IT, AND THAT'S WHAT HE WAS IN THE PROCESS OF DOING.
WE DISCUSSED THOSE CONCERNS, AND WE BOTH AGREED
14 THAT WE HAD A VERY SENSITIVE EMERGENCY-TYPE SITUATION, THAT WE
HAD TO DO SOMETHING, NOT JUST STAND ON THE STREET.
15 Q AND HOW MUCH TIME ELAPSED FROM THE TIME YOU SAW
THE SPEC OF BLOOD ON THE DOOR UNTIL SOMEONE ACTUALLY WENT OVER
16 THE WALL?
A FIVE TO TEN MINUTES AT THE MOST. FIVE TO TEN
17 MINUTES.
Q FIVE TO TEN MINUTES?
18 A FIVE TO TEN MINUTES.
Q SO BY THIS TIME, HAD THE OTHER DETECTIVES ALREADY
19 ATTEMPTED TO CALL INTO THE PREMISES BY TELEPHONE?
A YES.
20 Q THEY HAD GOTTEN THE TELEPHONE NUMBER FROM
WESTMARC?
21 A WESTEC.
Q WESTEC?
22 A YES.
Q WERE ANY UNIFORMED OFFICERS CALLED TO THE SCENE
23 AT THAT POINT?
A AT THAT POINT, NO.
24 Q ISN'T IT ROUTINE, WHEN YOU FEEL YOU HAVE AN
EMERGENCY THAT MAY INVOLVE VICTIMS OR SUSPECTS, TO HAVE
25 UNIFORMED OFFICERS PRESENT WHEN YOU ENTER THE PREMISES?
A NO. IT WOULD BE HIGHLY DESIRABLE FOR SOMETHING,
26 A PLAN, A TACTICAL SITUATION, YOU KNOW, HOSTAGE OR SEARCH
WARRANT OR ARREST WARRANT. BUT IT IS NOT SOMETHING SET IN
27 STONE, AND I THINK THE CIRCUMSTANCES PRECLUDED US WAITING FOR
SEVERAL MINUTES FOR A UNIT.
28 Q ALL RIGHT.
0086
1 DID YOU HAVE AVAILABLE ANY PUBLIC ADDRESS SYSTEM
UNDER WHICH AN ANNOUNCEMENT COULD BE MADE TO PEOPLE INSIDE THE
2 PREMISES?
A OH, WE PROBABLY HAD THE ABILITY TO GET ON THE
3 LOUD SPEAKER ON THE POLICE VEHICLE. BUT WE COULD HEAR THE
RINGING OF THE PHONE INSIDE. WE COULD ALSO SEE THAT THERE WAS
4 A LIGHT ON. WE HAD CALLED INSIDE THE RESIDENCE. I REALLY
DON'T BELIEVE THAT WOULD DO ANY GOOD.
5 Q ALL RIGHT.
COULD YOU HAVE CALLED IN A POLICE HELICOPTER AT
6 THAT POINT TO VIEW THE PREMISES FROM THE AIR?
A WHY WOULD WE DO THAT?
7 Q WELL, IF YOU WERE LOOKING FOR VICTIMS OR SUSPECTS
ON THE PREMISES.
8 A I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THAT BEFORE, NO. I
WOULDN'T PERSONALLY DO IT.
9 Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU FEEL, AT THAT POINT, YOU HAD PROBABLE
10 CAUSE THAT CRIMINAL ACTIVITY HAD GONE ON AT THE ROCKINGHAM
PREMISES?
11 A I THINK I WAS PERSONALLY MORE CONCERNED WITH
SOMEBODY BLEEDING TO DEATH INSIDE. I JUST CAME FROM A SCENE
12 OF AN EXTREMELY BRUTAL MURDER.
Q ALL RIGHT. AN EXTREMELY BRUTAL MURDER SIX HOURS
13 BEFORE.
A WELL, IT WAS SIX HOURS BEFORE, BUT I DON'T KNOW
14 HOW LONG IT TAKES FOR SOMEBODY TO BLEED TO DEATH.
Q WELL, DID YOU HEAR ANYTHING FROM WITHIN THE
15 PREMISES THAT GAVE YOU ANY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THERE MIGHT
BE SOMEBODY BLEEDING TO DEATH INSIDE THE PREMISES?
16 A YES. FROM ALL INDICATIONS, MR. SIMPSON WAS NOT
ON A SCHEDULED TRIP, AND THERE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A LIVE-IN
17 MAID THERE ALL THE TIME. NOBODY ANSWERED THE INTERCOM.
NOBODY ANSWERED THE PHONE.
18 Q SO WHAT YOU HEARD FROM THE PREMISES WAS SILENCE?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
19 Q AND THE SILENCE LED YOU TO BELIEVE THAT THERE MAY
BE A VICTIM BLEEDING TO DEATH?
20 A NO. THE TOTALITY OF EVERYTHING THAT WE HAD SEEN
SINCE I ARRIVED AT THE SCENE AT 0210 HOURS ON BUNDY. THAT AND
21 INCLUDING EVERYTHING THAT I OBSERVED, WE DISCUSSED -- AND
EVERYTHING WE ATTEMPTED TO DO, WE HAD A CROSSROADS; WE HAD AN
22 EMERGENCY SITUATION, AND WE HAD EXHAUSTED ALL ATTEMPTS TO
CONTACT SOMEBODY INSIDE, AND WE COULD NOT ALLOW SOMEBODY TO
23 DIE WHILE WE STOOD OUTSIDE. WE MADE A DECISION, AND THE
TOTALITY OF --
24 Q AND --
MS. CLARK: EXCUSE ME.
25 OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. COULD THE WITNESS BE
ALLOWED TO FINISH HIS ANSWER?
26 THE COURT: HAD YOU FINISHED WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO
SAY?
27 THE WITNESS: NOT REALLY, YOUR HONOR.
MR. UELMEN: I AM SORRY, PLEASE GO AHEAD.
28 THE WITNESS: THE LAST PART OF MY SENTENCE WAS THE
0087
1 TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES LENT US MORE THAN JUST A BELIEF
BUT AN OBLIGATION TO DO SOMETHING AT THAT POINT.
2 BY MR. UELMEN:
Q OKAY. AND THE TOTALITY OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES WAS,
3 NO ONE WAS ANSWERING THE DOOR OR THE RING AT THE GATE. AND
YOU SAW A ONE-QUARTER INCH STAIN THAT APPEARED TO BE -- TO YOU
4 TO BE BLOOD ON THE DOOR AND ON THE DOORJAMB AT THE BOTTOM OF
THE DOOR; IS THAT CORRECT?
5 A NO. THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS YOU LEFT OUT.
THE SHOVEL, THE PLASTIC, THE WAY THE VEHICLE WAS
6 PARKED, THE CONNECTION TO THE VICTIM ON BUNDY. THE BLOOD ON
THIS VEHICLE. TO BE VERY TRUTHFUL, WE WERE CONCERNED FOR
7 MR. SIMPSON MORE THAN WE THOUGHT HE WAS A SUSPECT. WE DID NOT
KNOW MANY THINGS AT THIS TIME. WE HAD TO GET ONTO THAT
8 LOCATION TO FIND OUT IF HE WAS INJURED OR IF HE WAS NOT HOME,
OR IF THERE WAS ANY CIRCUMSTANCE AT THAT LOCATION THAT WE
9 COULD ASSIST TO HELP SOMEBODY.
Q ALL RIGHT.
10 NOW DID YOU AT ANY TIME AT THIS POINT SUGGEST
GETTING A SEARCH WARRANT BEFORE YOU ENTERED THE PREMISES?
11 A WITH WHAT WE KNEW, THERE WAS NO TIME FOR THAT.
Q WELL, WAS IT A QUESTION OF NOT HAVING TIME FOR IT
12 OR NOT HAVING PROBABLE CAUSE FOR IT?
A OH, I THINK WE HAD PLENTY OF PROBABLE CAUSE IF WE
13 WANTED TO WRITE A SEARCH WARRANT AT THAT POINT TO AMPLE. I
THINK THE PROBLEM --
14 Q DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE TOTALITY OF CIRCUMSTANCES
THAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING GAVE YOU PROBABLE CAUSE FOR A SEARCH
15 WARRANT?
A OH, ABSOLUTELY.
16 Q NOW ISN'T THERE A PROCEDURE AVAILABLE IN
CALIFORNIA WHERE YOU CAN SIMPLY TELEPHONE AND HAVE A SEARCH
17 WARRANT ISSUED TELEPHONICALLY?
A TELEPHONIC SEARCH WARRANT, YES, THERE IS.
18 Q HAVE YOU EVER USED THAT PROCEDURE?
A NO.
19 Q NOW AT THIS POINT, WHICH OF THE DETECTIVES
ACTUALLY CLIMBED OVER THE WALL?
20 A MYSELF.
Q AND COULD YOU INDICATE ON EXHIBIT A WHERE YOU
21 CLIMBED OVER.
A ON THE ASHFORD GATE, JUST EAST OF THE FIRST
22 PILLAR THAT THE GATE RESTS UPON.
Q AND HOW HIGH IS THE WALL AT THAT POINT?
23 A WELL, I THINK IT IS PROBABLY FIVE, FIVE AND A
HALF FEET HIGH.
24 Q DID ANYONE NEED TO BOOST YOU TO GO OVER THE TOP?
A NO.
25 Q YOU WERE ABLE TO HOIST YOURSELF UP?
A YES.
26 Q CLIMB OVER?
A YES.
27 Q AND THEN YOU OPENED THE GATE FOR THE OTHER
DETECTIVES TO COME IN?
28 A YES. IT IS A TWO-ARM HYDRAULIC GATE WITH A LATCH
0088
1 THERE. YOU JUST FLIP THE LATCH, AND IT COLLAPSES THE HINGE,
AND YOU OPEN THE GATE.
2 Q ALL RIGHT. SO IN EFFECT, YOU ARE DISCONNECTING
THE MOTOR MECHANISM THAT OPENS THE GATE?
3 A YES, MOMENTARILY, LET THEM IN, PUT IT BACK, FLIP
THE SWITCH BACK. IT IS NOW IN OPERATION ONCE AGAIN.
4 Q DID YOU PUT IT BACK IN OPERATION AFTER YOU LET
THEM IN?
5 A YES.
Q SO THE GATE WAS THEN CLOSED AFTER THEY ENTERED
6 THE PREMISES?
A YES, WE CLOSED THE GATE. BUT I DID NOT FLIP THE
7 LATCH, BUT IT WAS CLOSED, YES.
Q AND ALL FOUR OF YOU THEN PROCEEDED TO THE FRONT
8 DOOR OF THE PREMISES?
A YES.
9 Q AND WHO KNOCKED AT THE DOOR?
A I BELIEVE -- I AM NOT SURE ON THAT. IT COULD
10 HAVE BEEN DETECTIVE VANNATTER OR DETECTIVE PHILLIPS. I AM NOT
SURE WHICH DID.
11 Q HOW LONG DID HE KNOCK?
A OH, A COUPLE MINUTES.
12 Q AND THERE WAS NO RESPONSE?
A NONE.
13 Q AND YOU THEN WALKED FROM THE FRONT DOOR TO THE
REAR OF THE PREMISES?
14 A YES, DOWN THE PATHWAY ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE
BUILDING.
15 Q ALL RIGHT. COULD YOU INDICATE THE PATH THAT YOU
FOLLOWED.
16 A YES, JUST -- THIS IS THE FRONT DOOR. THERE IS A
WALKWAY. YOU LEAVE THE WALKWAY AND GO NORTH, AND THEN THERE
17 IS AN EASTERLY STONE PATH THAT LEADS AROUND TO THE REAR OF THE
RESIDENCE ONTO A PATIO AREA. AND THE POOL IS DIRECTLY TO YOUR
18 EAST.
Q AT THE TIME THERE WAS NO RESPONSE TO THE KNOCK,
19 DID ANY OF THE DETECTIVES INDICATE AN INTENTION TO SECURE THE
PREMISES?
20 A SECURE THE PREMISES?
Q YES, SIR.
21 A NOT AT THAT POINT.
Q ALL RIGHT.
22 SO YOUR INTENTION AT THIS POINT WAS SIMPLY TO TRY
TO LOCATE MR. SIMPSON?
23 A IF MR. SIMPSON WOULD ANSWER THE DOOR, THAT WOULD
HAVE BEEN THE END OF IT.
24 Q ALL RIGHT.
SO YOU WENT TO THE GUEST QUARTERS OF MR. KAELIN,
25 I BELIEVE, INITIALLY?
A YES, THE FIRST BUNGALOW.
26 Q ALL RIGHT. AND ALL FOUR OF YOU WENT TO
MR. KAELIN'S DOOR?
27 A WELL, MR. -- DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WENT UP TO THE
DOOR, LOOKED INSIDE THE GLASS DOOR WITH LOUVERS. LOUVERS WERE
28 OPENED. WE SAW A MAN LYING ON THE BED, AND HE KNOCKED ON THE
0089
1 DOOR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
2 NOW HE OPENED THE DOOR AND LET YOU IN?
A MR. KAELIN DID, YES.
3 Q HOW WAS HE DRESSED?
A I CAN'T REALLY REMEMBER EXACTLY. I BELIEVE HE
4 HAD A T-SHIRT ON, AND I BELIEVE HE MIGHT HAVE HAD SWEAT PANTS
OR SOME KIND OF LOOSE FITTING TROUSERS; I AM NOT POSITIVE.
5 Q ALL RIGHT. AND OF COURSE YOU IMMEDIATELY TOLD
HIM WHY YOU WERE THERE?
6 A DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TALKED TO HIM INITIALLY.
Q AND WHAT DID DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TELL HIM?
7 A I BELIEVE TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE HE TOLD HIM
THAT -- ASKED HIM IF THERE WAS ANYBODY IN THE MAIN HOUSE.
8 THERE WAS AN EMERGENCY; THEY HAD TO KNOW IF ANYBODY WAS HOME
AND IF THEY WERE -- IF THEY WERE OKAY, SOMETHING TO THAT
9 EFFECT.
Q DID DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TELL HIM ABOUT THE DEATH
10 OF NICOLE BROWN?
A IF HE DID, I DID NOT HEAR IT AT THAT TIME. I WAS
11 STANDING A LITTLE BIT BACK. I BELIEVE I WAS AT THE REAR OF
THE GROUP.
12 Q SO NO EFFORT WAS MADE TO NOTIFY MR. KAELIN OF THE
DEATH OF MISS --
13 A WE DIDN'T -- I AM SORRY?
Q OF MISS BROWN?
14 A WE DIDN'T KNOW WHO MR. KAELIN WAS.
Q ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU ASK MR. KAELIN WHERE
15 MR. SIMPSON WAS?
A I DIDN'T PERSONALLY.
16 Q DID ANY OF THE DETECTIVES?
A I BELIEVE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS DID. I DON'T -- I
17 DID NOT OVERHEAR THE RESPONSE.
Q I BELIEVE YOU SAID MR. KAELIN WAS DISORIENTED?
18 A WELL, HE HAD JUST BEEN AWAKENED UP. IT WAS A
QUARTER TO 6:00 IN THE MORNING. HIS EYES WERE BLOODSHOT. HIS
19 HAIR WAS MESSED UP. HE LOOKED LIKE I LOOK LIKE WHEN I WAKE
UP; BAD, YOU KNOW.
20 Q AND YOU ENTERED HIS ROOM, AND YOU BELIEVE YOU
INDICATED YOU OPENED THE CLOSET?
21 A I ASKED HIM IF I COULD LOOK AROUND. I OPENED THE
CLOSETS -- THEY WERE TALL CLOSETS, VERY LARGE CLOSETS, ALMOST
22 AS LARGE AS THE PANELS ON THE COURTROOM.
Q DID YOU EXPLAIN WHY YOU WANTED TO LOOK AROUND?
23 A I DON'T RECALL IF I SAID I WAS LOOKING TO SEE IF
THERE WAS ANYBODY ELSE THERE. I DON'T RECALL THAT. I LOOKED
24 IN THE BATHROOM AND THE CLOSETS AND THEN RETURNED TO
MR. KAELIN.
25 Q WHAT WERE YOU LOOKING FOR?
A OH, ADDITIONAL PEOPLE THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN
26 SECRETING THEMSELVES IN A HIDING PLACE, OR IT COULD BE A
VICTIM.
27 Q WAS THERE ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT YOU HAD
OBSERVED BEFORE YOU ENTERED THE PREMISES THAT LED YOU TO
28 BELIEVE THERE MIGHT BE A VICTIM OR A SUSPECT IN MR. KAELIN'S
0090
1 CLOSET?
A WELL, I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE SOMEBODY THAT WAS
2 BLEEDING WOULD BE. BUT THAT CLOSET AND HIS BATHROOM AND HIS
SHOWER WERE DEFINITELY LARGE ENOUGH TO CONCEAL A PERSON.
3 Q WELL, DID YOU BELIEVE THAT MR. KAELIN MIGHT HAVE
BEEN A SUSPECT IN THE HOMICIDE THAT YOU WERE INVESTIGATING?
4 A AS I SAID, I DIDN'T KNOW MR. KAELIN. HE WASN'T
HANDCUFFED. I SPOKE WITH HIM, AND AS FAR AS I KNEW -- I JUST
5 DIDN'T KNOW HIM. I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HIS POSITION WAS AT THE
ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS; I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT HIS ASSOCIATION WITH
6 MR. SIMPSON WAS. I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HIM.
Q WELL, BEFORE YOU LOOKED IN HIS CLOSET, DID HE, IN
7 ANY MANNER, INDICATE THAT ANYTHING UNUSUAL HAD HAPPENED ON THE
PREMISES?
8 A WELL, HE HAD -- I HAD ASKED HIM IF ANYTHING
UNUSUAL HAPPENED THE PREVIOUS NIGHT.
9 Q I AM SAYING BEFORE YOU LOOKED IN HIS CLOSET.
A NO. I JUST ASKED HIM IF I COULD LOOK.
10 Q AND WHEN YOU LOOKED AT HIS CLOTHES, WHAT WERE YOU
LOOKING FOR?
11 A I ASKED HIM IF I COULD -- "ARE THESE THE CLOTHES
YOU WORE LAST NIGHT?"
12 HE SAID, "YES."
I SAID, "DO YOU MIND?"
13 AND HE SAID NO.
I AM JUST LOOKING TO SEE IF THERE WAS ANY
14 TEARING, STAINS. SAME WITH THE SHOES.
Q YOU THOUGHT THERE MIGHT BE BLOOD ON HIS CLOTHES
15 OR HIS SHOES?
A THERE COULD BE.
16 Q AND YOU PICKED UP HIS SHOES TO LOOK AT THEM TO
SEE WHETHER THEY HAD BLOOD ON THEM?
17 A YES.
Q DID YOU LOOK AT THE PATTERN OF THE SOLES TO SEE
18 IF THEY MATCHED THE SOLES OF THE FOOTPRINTS YOU HAD OBSERVED
AT THE SCENE ON BUNDY?
19 A I DID.
Q AND WHAT CONCLUSION DID YOU COME TO?
20 A THEY LOOKED LIKE THEY WERE CLOSE, BUT THEY LOOKED
A LITTLE TOO SMALL, AND THEY DIDN'T LOOK LIKE THE EXACT
21 PATTERN. THERE WAS NO DEBRIS ON THEM. THERE WAS NO -- ANY
TYPE OF DRIED LIQUID. THEY LOOKED VERY CLEAN.
22 Q NO BLOOD ON THEM?
A NO. NO ANYTHING. NO DIRT, NO BLOOD.
23 Q NOW MR. KAELIN TOLD YOU THAT MR. SIMPSON'S
DAUGHTER WAS ALSO ON THE PREMISES?
24 A HE TOLD DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, AND DETECTIVE
PHILLIPS, VANNATTER AND LANG PROCEEDED TO THAT BUNGALOW.
25 Q SO YOU REMAINED IN MR. KAELIN'S ROOM WHILE THE
OTHER THREE DETECTIVES WENT IMMEDIATELY TO ARNELLE SIMPSON'S
26 ROOM?
A THAT'S CORRECT.
27 Q AND COULD YOU AGAIN INDICATE ON EXHIBIT A WHERE
ARNELLE SIMPSON'S ROOM WAS.
28 A ARNELLE'S IS THE FURTHEST MOST BUNGALOW, AND IT
0091
1 IS ALMOST DIRECTLY IN THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF THE PROPERTY.
IT IS THE LAST ROOM THAT IS -- THE FRONT DOOR FACES NORTH.
2 Q ALL RIGHT.
DID YOU OBSERVE WHAT THE OTHER DETECTIVES DID
3 WHEN THEY GOT TO ARNELLE'S ROOM?
A NOT AT ALL TIMES.
4 Q NOW ARNELLE THEN CAME OUT AND WENT WITH THE OTHER
DETECTIVES; IS THAT CORRECT?
5 A THAT'S CORRECT.
Q DID YOU FOLLOW ALONG? DID YOU GO WITH THEM WHEN
6 THEY WENT AROUND TO THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE?
A NO.
7 Q YOU REMAINED WITH MR. KAELIN?
A YES.
8 Q SO THE THREE DETECTIVES AND ARNELLE SIMPSON
WALKED, RETRACING THE PATH YOU HAD JUST FOLLOWED FROM THE
9 FRONT OF THE HOUSE TO GO BACK TO THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE; IS
THAT CORRECT?
10 A I DIDN'T SEE WHICH WAY THEY WENT. I DIDN'T KNOW
IF THEY ENTERED THE BACK DOOR OR THE FRONT DOOR.
11 Q WELL AT SOME POINT, DID ANY OF THEM RE-ENTER
MR. KAELIN'S ROOM?
12 A I DON'T RECALL. I TOOK MR. KAELIN INSIDE AFTER A
BRIEF CONVERSATION.
13 Q INSIDE WHERE?
A INSIDE THE MAIN HOUSE.
14 Q ALL RIGHT. DID ANYBODY HAVE TO LET YOU INTO THE
MAIN HOUSE?
15 A I BELIEVE THE BACK DOOR THAT LEADS INTO THE PATIO
IN THE SOUTHEAST CORNER OF THE MAIN HOUSE, I BELIEVE THAT WAS
16 OPENED; I DON'T KNOW BY WHO.
Q ALL RIGHT.
17 NOW THE ROUTE THAT YOU WOULD HAVE FOLLOWED THEN
TO GO FROM MR. KAELIN'S ROOM INTO THE HOUSE WOULD HAVE BEEN UP
18 THESE STAIRS AND THROUGH THE BILLIARD ROOM AND INTO THE FAMILY
ROOM; IS THAT CORRECT?
19 A NO. THIS STAIRWAY HERE IS ENCLOSED. THIS IS AN
OFFICE WITH A DOOR FROM KATO'S ROOM. THIS IS AN OFFICE WITH A
20 DESK THAT GOES UP AGAINST THIS WINDOW. THIS DOOR LEADS TO A
STAIRWAY AND THE BILLIARD ROOM. WE DIDN'T GO THAT WAY.
21 WE WENT OUT INTO THE PATIO, UP THESE STAIRS, AND
INTO THE -- I BELIEVE THERE IS A DOOR RIGHT WHERE -- I BELIEVE
22 THIS IS A TREE OR SOMETHING -- RIGHT INTO HERE. AND THIS
WOULD BE JUST A LITTLE NORTH OF THE BILLIARD ROOM
23 (INDICATING). THIS IS THE BAR AREA. THERE ARE SEVERAL TOOLS
RIGHT HERE (INDICATING).
24 Q OKAY.
WELL, DID SOMEBODY COME AND OPEN UP THIS BACK
25 DOOR AND LET YOU IN THEN, INTO THE FAMILY ROOM?
A I BELIEVE SO, BUT THE DOOR WAS OPENED.
26 Q IT WAS -- NOBODY NEEDED TO OPEN IT, OR IT WAS
OPENED --
27 A IT WAS OPENED FOR ME. AND I ASSUME THAT THAT IS
THE WAY THAT ARNELLE ENTERED THE RESIDENCE. BUT I DID NOT
28 KNOW. IT WAS JUST OPENED.
0092
1 Q OKAY.
SO THEN YOU WERE SEATED WITH MR. KAELIN AT THE
2 BAR AREA?
A NO. I SAT MR. KAELIN AT THE BAR AREA, AND I
3 WALKED THROUGH THE FAMILY ROOM TO THE KITCHEN. I NOTICED
DETECTIVE VANNATTER STANDING IN THE KITCHEN, I BELIEVE. HE
4 COULD HAVE BEEN IN THE HALL.
I SAID, "PHIL, THAT WHITE MALE IN THE BUNGALOW
5 SITTING AT THE BAR, GO TALK TO HIM."
Q ALL RIGHT.
6 NOW AT THAT POINT WERE ALL OF THE DETECTIVES IN
THE KITCHEN AREA?
7 A I BELIEVE SO, YES.
Q INCLUDING YOURSELF?
8 A NO. I JUST WALKED BY THE HALL AND I TOLD PHIL, I
SAID, "GO TALK TO MR. KAELIN. HE IS AT THE BAR."
9 Q ALL RIGHT. NOW WERE YOU AWARE OF WHAT THE OTHER
DETECTIVES WERE DOING IN THE KITCHEN AREA?
10 A NOT AT ALL. I WAS RESPONDING TO A COMMENT THAT
MR. KAELIN MADE, AND I WENT DIRECTLY TO CHECK OUT EXACTLY WHAT
11 HE HEARD.
Q SO AT THAT POINT YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER
12 TELEPHONIC CONTACT HAD BEEN MADE WITH MR. SIMPSON?
A I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT.
13 Q SO YOUR PURPOSE THEN, AFTER YOU SPOKE TO
MR. KAELIN, WAS SIMPLY, GO CHECK OUT WHAT HE HAD TOLD YOU?
14 A WELL, NOT EVERYTHING. HE TALKED ABOUT THE LIMO
DRIVER ARRIVING. AND JUST PRIOR TO THAT, HE TALKED ABOUT A
15 CRASHING SOUND ON HIS WALL AT ABOUT A QUARTER TO 11:00. HE
WENT OUT TO INVESTIGATE THAT, HE IS TELLING ME, AND HE SEES
16 THE LIMO, AND I STOPPED HIM RIGHT THERE AND I SAID, "WOULD YOU
COME WITH ME? JUST SIT HERE. SOMEBODY IS GOING TO TALK TO
17 YOU IN A MINUTE."
I IMMEDIATELY RESPONDED TO WHERE I THOUGHT THAT
18 CRASHING SOUND HIT THE OTHER SIDE OF HIS WALL.
Q SO YOUR ONLY PURPOSE THEN IN LEAVING THE HOUSE AT
19 THAT POINT WAS TO INVESTIGATE THE INFORMATION THAT MR. KAELIN
HAD GIVEN YOU ABOUT A CRASHING SOUND OUTSIDE HIS WALL?
20 A YES.
Q AND THAT CRASHING SOUND AGAIN WAS AT ABOUT
21 BETWEEN 10:30 AND 11:00 THE PREVIOUS EVENING?
A I BELIEVE HE SAID ABOUT A QUARTER TO 11:00.
22 Q A QUARTER TO 11:00?
A ABOUT. ABOUT A QUARTER TO 11:00.
23 Q AND WHAT TIME WAS IT NOW WHEN YOU LEFT THE HOUSE
TO GO INVESTIGATE WHERE THAT HAD HAPPENED?
24 A IT WAS PROBABLY JUST PRIOR TO 6:00 O'CLOCK.
Q OKAY. SO YOU HAD BEEN ON THE PREMISES LESS THAN
25 AN HOUR AT THAT POINT?
A IT COULD HAVE BEEN A LITTLE AFTER 6:00. I AM NOT
26 EXACTLY POSITIVE, YES.
WE HADN'T BEEN ON THE PREMISES, NO. WE HAD BEEN
27 OUTSIDE FOR THIRTY TO FORTY MINUTES. WE WERE -- WE ARRIVED AT
PROBABLY 5:10. IT WAS PROBABLY 5:40 OR 5:45, MAYBE AS LATE AS
28 5:50 WHEN WE ENTERED. A COUPLE MINUTES AT THE FRONT DOOR, A
0093
1 FEW MINUTES TO TALK TO MR. KAELIN. IT COULD HAVE BEEN AS LATE
AS 6:15.
2 Q 6:15?
AND WHAT WAS THE LIGHTING CONDITIONS AT THAT
3 POINT?
A WELL, THE -- IT WAS BECOMING LIGHT. ON THE
4 PATHWAY IN THE SOUTH PART OF THE BORDER OF THE PROPERTY WAS
OVERGROWN WITH TREES. AND THE ROOF IN THE BUILDING SHADOWED
5 MUCH OF IT. SO IT WAS DEEPLY SHADOWED IN THERE. NOT MUCH
LIGHT COULD GET TO IT; I DOUBT EVEN ON A SUNNY DAY.
6 Q BUT YOU STILL NEEDED A FLASHLIGHT?
A TO SEE WHAT WAS IN FRONT OF ME, YES.
7 Q AND YOU TOOK THAT FLASHLIGHT AND WENT THEN TO THE
CORNER OF THE GARAGE AND STARTED DOWN ALONG THE NARROW PATHWAY
8 AT THE REAR OF THE HOUSE?
A YES. THIS WAS A SMALL FLASHLIGHT, THOUGH. I
9 COULDN'T SEE MUCH FARTHER THAN A FEW FEET IN FRONT OF ME WITH
THE FLASHLIGHT. IT WAS JUST A SMALL FIVE-INCH LONG FLASHLIGHT
10 FOR CLOSE WORK.
Q AND YOUR PURPOSE WAS TO LOOK FOR A BODY OF A
11 POSSIBLE VICTIM?
A FROM MR. KAELIN'S STATEMENTS, IT SOUNDED LIKE
12 POSSIBLY SOMEBODY COLLAPSED AGAINST THE WALL IN THE REAR, YES.
THAT'S WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR.
13 Q NOW HOW FAR DID YOU HAVE TO GO DOWN THAT NARROW
WALKWAY BEFORE YOU COULD SEE TO THE END OF THE HOUSE?
14 A DO YOU WANT AN APPROXIMATION ON THE FEET?
Q YES.
15 A AS FAR AS SEEING TO THE END OF THE HOUSE, IT WAS
A VERY NARROW PATH, A COUPLE FEET WIDE.
16 WHEN I STARTED HERE, IT SEEMED TO SLANT DOWN A
LITTLE BIT. SO OBVIOUSLY IT IS GOING TO SEEM SHORTER THAN IT
17 IS.
YOU GET DOWN TO THIS AREA IN HERE (INDICATING).
18 I PROBABLY WENT -- FROM WHERE THE MAID'S QUARTERS ARE, I WOULD
JUST APPROXIMATE 40 TO 50 FEET, TO ABOUT THE MIDDLE OF KATO'S
19 ROOM'S WALL, THE SOUTH WALL, THE EXTERIOR OF THAT.
Q WELL, ISN'T THERE A GATE AT APPROXIMATELY THIS
20 LOCATION WHERE THE MAID'S QUARTERS ARE AND THE CORNER STARTS
UP AGAIN? CAN YOU SEE WHERE I AM POINTING HERE?
21 A YES, I CAN SEE.
Q IS THERE A GATE THAT'S OPEN?
22 A YOU DON'T HAVE TO UNLATCH ANY GATES TO WALK
THROUGH ANY GATES.
23 Q WAS THERE A GATE CLOSER TO THE AREA WHERE YOU
ENTERED THAT WALKWAY BY THE FRONT OF THE GARAGE?
24 A ONCE AGAIN, I BELIEVE THERE COULD HAVE BEEN A
GATE THERE. I BELIEVE IT WAS BROKEN. I DID NOT HAVE TO OPEN
25 ANY GATES, GO OVER ANY GATES. IT WAS COMPLETELY --
Q NOW AGAIN --
26 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. AGAIN, YOUR HONOR, COUNSEL IS
CUTTING OFF THE WITNESS' ANSWER. I WOULD LIKE FOR HIM TO BE
27 ALLOWED TO COMPLETE IT.
THE COURT: HAD YOU FINISHED WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO
28 SAY?
0094
1 THE WITNESS: I HAD HALF OF A SENTENCE.
THE COURT: DO YOU WANT TO FINISH WHAT YOU WERE GOING
2 TO SAY?
THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM.
3 THERE WAS NO OBSTRUCTIONS. I HAD COMPLETE
ABILITY TO JUST WALK FREELY DOWN THE PATH.
4 MR. UELMEN: ALL RIGHT.
Q AND HOW FAR WERE YOU DOWN THE PATH BEFORE YOU
5 COULD SEE TO THE END OF THE HOUSE? IF YOU COULD JUST INDICATE
THAT, PERHAPS WRITE YOUR INITIALS WHERE YOU WERE STANDING
6 WHERE YOU COULD SEE TO THE END OF THE HOUSE.
A WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE END OF THE HOUSE? THE
7 END TO THE BUNGALOWS? ALL THE WAY TO THE END?
Q ALL THE WAY TO THE END OF THIS CORNER HERE
8 (INDICATING).
A I COULD PROBABLY SEE PROBABLY ABOUT WHERE THE
9 MAID'S QUARTERS WERE. IT SEEMS LIKE THIS AREA HERE WAS
SLIGHTLY ELEVATED.
10 Q OKAY. COULD YOU PUT YOUR INITIALS AT THAT POINT.
A (WITNESS COMPLIES).
11 Q WE HAVE A BLOWN-UP PHOTOGRAPH HERE THAT PICTURES
THIS AREA ALONG THE REAR PERIMETER OF THE HOUSE. IS THAT AN
12 ACCURATE REPRESENTATION OF WHAT YOU SAW?
A YES, SIR.
13 THE COURT: DID YOU WANT TO MARK THAT AS DEFENDANT'S D?
MR. UELMEN: YES. D WOULD BE NEXT IN ORDER?
14 THE COURT: YES.
THE WITNESS: EXCEPT FOR ONE THING. THE LIGHTING
15 CONDITIONS ARE MUCH BETTER AT THIS TIME OF THIS PHOTOGRAPH.
BY MR. UELMEN:
16 Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW FROM THAT VANTAGE POINT, COULD YOU ASCERTAIN
17 WHETHER THERE WERE ANY BODIES OR PERSONS ALONG THAT WALKWAY?
A WELL, THE WALKWAY DIDN'T APPEAR TO END JUST WITH
18 THE NARROWNESS OF THE WALKWAY. IT SEEMED TO GO SOMEWHERE AT
THE END OF THE BUILDING.
19 I WAS LOOKING DOWN THE WALKWAY TOWARDS WHERE
MR. KATO OR KATO'S WALL WAS. WHEN I GOT TO WITHIN SEVERAL
20 FEET OF HIS WALL, AND I ESTIMATED FROM THE ARCHITECTURE OF THE
BUILDINGS ABOUT WHERE HIS WALL WOULD BE, I LOOKED DOWN AND I
21 SAW A DARK OBJECT. AND AS I GOT CLOSER, I SHINED MY
FLASHLIGHT ON IT, AND I COULD SEE IT WAS A GLOVE.
22 Q ALL RIGHT.
NOW YOU DIDN'T SUSPECT THAT THIS DARK OBJECT WAS
23 THE BODY OF A PERSON, DID YOU?
A NO.
24 Q YOU APPROACHED IT TO GET A CLOSER LOOK AT WHAT IT
WAS?
25 A YES.
Q HOW CLOSE DID YOU COME TO IT?
26 A INCHES.
Q WITH YOUR FLASHLIGHT?
27 A YES.
Q AND DID YOU PICK IT UP OR EXAMINE IT IN ANYWAY?
28 A I DID NOT TOUCH IT.
0095
1 Q NOW DID YOU CONTINUE ON BEYOND WHERE YOU
ENCOUNTERED THIS OBJECT?
2 A YES. FINDING THE GLOVE AND THE CONDITION OF IT
EVEN ALERTED ME MORE THAT SOMEONE WITHIN HOURS HAD LEFT THAT
3 GLOVE THERE. GOING EAST OR WEST, SOMEONE LEFT THAT GLOVE.
AND I CONTINUED EAST, THINKING THAT THERE COULD BE A POSSIBLE
4 VICTIM OR NOW SUSPECT TO THE REAR.
Q ALL RIGHT.
5 BUT YOU ONLY CONTINUED AS FAR AS YOU COULD GO
WITHOUT ENCOUNTERING SPIDER WEBS; IS THAT CORRECT?
6 A OH NO. I CONTINUED IT COMPLETELY, ALL THE WAY
BACK TO THE REAR. IT WAS LIKE A GARDENING AREA, LIKE A
7 POTTING AREA; I COULDN'T DESCRIBE IT ANY OTHER WAY. IT
APPEARED THAT PLANTS WERE GROWING THERE TO BE UPROOTED AND
8 PLANTED ELSEWHERE, A LARGE SQUARE AREA, ABOUT 25 FOOT SQUARE.
BUT I WAS RUNNING INTO SPIDER WEBS THE WHOLE
9 DISTANCE, BUT I STILL CHECKED OUT THE AREA. I WAS NOT
CRAWLING, SO I DID NOT KNOW WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCE -- OR
10 WHOEVER LEFT THE GLOVE, WHAT THEIR DILEMMA WAS AT THAT POINT.
Q DID YOU NOTICE ANY DISTURBANCE IN THE PATTERN OF
11 THE LEAVES OR DEBRIS THAT YOU SAW ON THE PATHWAY?
A NOT THAT I COULD REALLY TELL WHAT WAS ON THE
12 PATHWAY. JUST LEAVES THAT HAVE DROPPED ONTO THE PATHWAY AND
DEBRIS. NOTHING UNUSUAL OTHER THAN THE GLOVE.
13 Q OKAY. DID YOU LOOK FOR FOOTPRINTS LEADING UP TO
THE GLOVE?
14 A AS I SAID, THE LEAVES COVERED MOST OF THE
WALKWAY. OF COURSE, I DID LOOK BOTH DIRECTIONS, BUT I DID NOT
15 FIND ANY, NO.
Q THERE WAS NOTHING TO INDICATE TO YOU BY THE
16 DISTURBANCE OF THE LEAVES OR ANY PATTERNS THAT YOU OBSERVED
THAT YOU THOUGHT WERE OF ANY EVIDENTIARY SIGNIFICANCE?
17 A WELL, I COULDN'T FIND ANY. I SPENT ABOUT 15
MINUTES MAKING SURE THAT THERE WAS NO VICTIM OR SUSPECT OR ANY
18 OTHER PERSON TO THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE. I MADE SURE THAT I
WALKED BACK CAREFULLY, BUT I DID NOT OBSERVE NONE, NO.
19 Q SO YOU SPENT 15 MINUTES BACK THERE INITIALLY
BEFORE YOU RETURNED TO THE HOUSE?
20 A YES. THAT WAS AN APPROXIMATE.
Q OKAY. SO YOU WOULD HAVE RETURNED TO THE HOUSE
21 THEN WHAT, ABOUT 6:30?
A GIVE OR TAKE FIVE MINUTES, YES.
22 Q AND AT THAT POINT, YOU ASKED THE OTHER DETECTIVES
TO ACCOMPANY YOU TO LOOK AT THE GLOVE AS WELL?
23 A YES. I CONTACTED DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, AND I -- I
TOLD HIM, I SAID, "RON, I FOUND A GLOVE ON THE SIDE OF THE
24 HOUSE THAT LOOKS VERY SIMILAR TO THE GLOVE THAT'S AT THE SCENE
ON BUNDY."
25 Q AND WHERE WAS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WHEN YOU TOLD
HIM THAT?
26 A I BELIEVE HE WAS IN THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE
OUTSIDE.
27 Q WHAT WAS HE DOING?
A JUST STANDING THERE, I BELIEVE. I AM NOT
28 POSITIVE ON THAT. HE COULD HAVE BEEN STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT
0096
1 OF THE FRONT DOOR.
Q AND HE IMMEDIATELY ACCOMPANIED YOU BACK TO LOOK
2 AT THE GLOVE?
A YES.
3 Q AND HOW LONG WERE YOU BACK THERE THEN THE SECOND
TIME?
4 A JUST AS LONG AS IT TOOK FOR ME TO WALK HIM BACK
TO THE GLOVE AND SHOW HIM. THEN WE WALKED BACK. HE NOTIFIED
5 DEFENDANT VANNATTER AND LANG.
Q FIVE MINUTES?
6 A I RESPECTIVELY WALKED BOTH OF THEM BACK TO
OBSERVE THE GLOVE. THEY WALKED BACK TO THE FRONT OF THE
7 RESIDENCE.
Q DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND LANG WALKED BACK
8 TOGETHER?
A NO. I WALKED EACH ONE OF THEM BACK INDIVIDUALLY,
9 SO THEY DIDN'T DESTROY ANYTHING. THERE WAS NOTHING THAT I
FOUND ON THE PATH THAT I COULD SEE WAS OF AN EVIDENTIARY
10 VALUE, BUT I STILL WALKED EACH OF THEM BACK.
Q ONE AT A TIME THEN; YOU MADE --
11 A YES.
Q -- A TOTAL OF FOUR TRIPS BACK TO LOOK AT THE
12 GLOVE?
A INCLUDING MINE, YES, FOUR TRIPS.
13 Q WHERE WAS DETECTIVE VANNATTER WHEN YOU INVITED
HIM BACK TO VIEW THE GLOVE?
14 A I BELIEVE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS NOTIFIED HIM AND
DETECTIVE LANG. AND THEY CONTACTED ME OUT IN FRONT OF THE
15 RESIDENCE.
Q DO YOU KNOW WHERE THEY WERE OR WHAT THEY WERE
16 DOING AT THAT TIME?
A I AM SORRY, I DON'T.
17 Q NOW WERE YOU THE FIRST PERSON TO OBSERVE WHAT YOU
REFERRED TO AS BLOOD DROPS OR BLOOD SPOTS ON THE DRIVEWAY?
18 A I DON'T BELIEVE SO, NO.
MS. CLARK: WELL, OBJECTION. THAT WOULD CALL FOR
19 SPECULATION.
THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
20 ///
BY MR. UELMEN:
21 Q DID YOU OBSERVE SOME BLOOD SPOTS ON THE DRIVEWAY?
A YES.
22 Q NOW AGAIN, THESE WERE RED SPOTS THAT APPEARED TO
YOU TO BE BLOOD?
23 A YES.
Q AND YOU WERE UNABLE TO COME TO ANY CONCLUSION
24 WHETHER THEY WERE ANIMAL BLOOD OR HUMAN BLOOD?
A I DID NOT COME TO THAT CONCLUSION.
25 Q OR EVEN WHETHER THEY WERE BLOOD?
A THAT'S TRUE, YES, SIR.
26 Q WHEN DID YOU FIRST SEE THESE?
A I BELIEVE AT ABOUT 8:00 OR 8:30.
27 Q THIS WAS AFTER YOU HAD ESCORTED EACH OF THE
DETECTIVES BACK TO SEE THE GLOVE?
28 A YES.
0097
1 Q ABOUT 8:30 IN THE MORNING?
A YES.
2 Q DID YOU NEED A FLASHLIGHT TO OBSERVE THOSE BLOOD
SPOTS?
3 A NO. THE LIGHT WAS QUITE GOOD BY THEN.
Q OR SPOTS TO YOU THAT RESEMBLED BLOOD?
4 A WELL, THE -- IT IS ALWAYS DIFFICULT TO SEE THEM
ON THAT -- THE SIMULATED COBBLESTONE, RED STONE. BUT THE GRAY
5 CONCRETE TO THE REAR OF THE BRONCO WAS FAIRLY EASY TO SEE
WITHOUT MUCH EFFORT.
6 Q NOW I BELIEVE YOU INDICATED THAT AT SOME POINT A
DETERMINATION WAS MADE THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE DECLARED A
7 CRIME SCENE?
A YES.
8 Q AND WHAT CRIME DID YOU BELIEVE HAD TAKEN PLACE ON
THE PREMISES?
9 A I DIDN'T DECLARE IT WAS A CRIME SCENE; DETECTIVE
VANNATTER DID.
10 Q AND WHAT CRIME DID HE BELIEVE THAT HAD TAKEN
PLACE --
11 A I DON'T BELIEVE HE SAID, "THIS IS A CRIME SCENE."
THIS WILL BE HANDLED LIKE A CRIME SCENE.
12 IN OTHER WORDS, WE WILL SEAL IT OFF AND CONSIDER
IT THE SAME AS WE WOULD IF IT WAS A CRIME SCENE.
13 Q DO YOU RECALL ABOUT WHAT TIME THAT WAS THAT THAT
DETERMINATION WAS MADE?
14 A IT WAS SHORTLY AFTER I DISCOVERED THE GLOVE AND
LED ALL THREE DETECTIVES TO VIEW IT. AND SHORTLY THEREAFTER
15 DETECTIVE VANNATTER SAID, "THIS IS NOW CONSIDERED A CRIME
SCENE; WE WILL HANDLE IT AS SUCH."
16 Q SO THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WHAT, ABOUT 7:00 IN THE
MORNING?
17 A I WANT TO SAY 7:00, 7:30.
Q SO THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WELL BEFORE YOU HAD
18 PERSONALLY OBSERVED ANY SPOTS THAT APPEARED TO BE BLOOD ON THE
DRIVEWAY?
19 A YES, BUT I BELIEVE THOSE WERE OBSERVED PRIOR TO
MY OBSERVING THEM.
20 Q NOW ONCE IT WAS DECLARED A CRIME SCENE, THAT
MEANS EVERYBODY OFF THE PREMISES EXCEPT THE DETECTIVES?
21 A YES.
Q WAS ARNELLE SIMPSON TOLD THAT SHE WOULD HAVE TO
22 LEAVE THE PREMISES?
A YES, SHE WAS.
23 Q AND WAS MR. KAELIN TOLD HE WOULD HAVE TO LEAVE
THE PREMISES?
24 A HE WAS TRANSPORTED TO THE STATION TO GET A
STATEMENT FROM HIM.
25 Q ALL RIGHT. AND WAS HE TOLD TO AWAIT GOING TO THE
STATION AT SOME LOCATION OTHER THAN IN THE HOUSE?
26 A YES. HE WAITED OUTSIDE OF THE RESIDENCE. I
BELIEVE HE WAITED BY A BLACK AND WHITE.
27 Q OUT ON THE STREET?
A YES.
28 Q AND WAS A CRIME SCENE SEAL PUT UP, OR WERE TAPES
0098
1 ERECTED OR BARRICADES PUT UP?
A WELL, IT REALLY WASN'T NECESSARY. WE HAD A BLACK
2 AND WHITE UNIT THAT TOOK CONTROL OF THE BRONCO, AND THEN THE
RESIDENCE WAS EXTREMELY SECURED ONTO ITSELF. WE DIDN'T
3 FORESEE ANYBODY COMING OVER THE WALLS.
Q OKAY. SO ALL YOU REALLY NEEDED TO DO THEN TO
4 SECURE THE PREMISES WAS TO HAVE PEOPLE AT THE GATES TO MAKE
SURE PEOPLE JUST DIDN'T WANDER IN AND OUT?
5 A YES, SIR.
Q AND AT THAT POINT, WAS ALL OF THE INVESTIGATIVE
6 ACTIVITY SUSPENDED?
A AT WHAT TIME, SIR?
7 Q WHEN A CRIME SCENE WAS DECLARED AT APPROXIMATELY
7:30.
8 A YES. DETECTIVE VANNATTER SAID, "I AM GOING TO
LEAVE THE SCENE AND WRITE A SEARCH WARRANT."
9 Q THAT IS YOUR RECOLLECTION, THAT THAT OCCURRED AT
ABOUT 7:30 IN THE MORNING?
10 A YES, 7:30, 8:00, SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE. I
DIDN'T KNOW THE EXACT TIMES.
11 Q DID YOU REMAIN ON THE PREMISES THEN?
A PRETTY MUCH EXCEPT FOR ONE TRIP DOWN TO BUNDY
12 THAT TOOK ABOUT 20 MINUTES.
Q AND WHEN WAS THAT TRIP MADE?
13 A AT 7:30, 8:00 O'CLOCK. IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN VERY
CLOSE IN PROXIMITY TO THE TIME THAT DETECTIVE VANNATTER LEFT
14 THE SCENE TO WRITE A SEARCH WARRANT. MAYBE WITHIN A HALF
HOUR; MAYBE A SHORTER PERIOD OF TIME. I LEFT THE SCENE WITH
15 DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TO GO TO THE BUNDY ADDRESS.
Q NOW DO YOU KEEP A CHRONOLOGY THAT -- AT WHICH
16 PARTICULAR TIMES THAT YOU COME AND GO ARE RECORDED?
A THERE IS USUALLY AN OFFICER AT A SCENE THAT DOES
17 THAT, YES.
Q AND DID YOU LOG IN OR LOG OUT WHEN YOU LEFT THE
18 ROCKINGHAM SCENE AND RETURNED TO THE BUNDY SCENE?
A I DON'T BELIEVE THERE WAS A LOG STARTED AT THE
19 ROCKINGHAM LOCATION THAT EARLY.
Q AT ANY TIME WERE YOU INFORMED THAT ANY OF THE
20 DETECTIVES HAD SUCCEEDED IN LOCATING MR. SIMPSON?
A I KNOW DETECTIVE PHILLIPS HAD SPOKEN TO HIM ON
21 THE PHONE, YES.
Q WHEN DID THAT OCCUR?
22 A THE SAME MORNING. AND I BELIEVE IT WAS BETWEEN
6:00 OR 7:00 O'CLOCK; MAYBE A LITTLE BEFORE.
23 Q A LITTLE BEFORE 6:00?
A I DON'T KNOW, SIR. I DID NOT STAND NEXT TO
24 DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WHEN HE WAS SPEAKING TO HIM, BUT I KNOW HE
DID.
25 Q WHEN DID YOU FIRST LEARN THAT THAT HAD HAPPENED?
A PROBABLY ABOUT THE SAME TIME THAT DETECTIVE
26 VANNATTER SAID, "THIS IS NOW A CRIME SCENE," OR SHORTLY
THEREAFTER. I HAD NOT BEEN WITH THOSE THREE DETECTIVES FOR
27 SEVERAL MINUTES. AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS USING HIS
CELLULAR PHONE TO TRY TO CALL THE RESIDENCE AND THEN CALL THE
28 STATION TO CALL MR. SIMPSON.
0099
1 Q ALL RIGHT.
A I BELIEVE HE TALKED TO HIS SECRETARY TOO AND
2 LEARNED HIS WHEREABOUTS.
Q THANK YOU.
3 MR. UELMEN: IF I COULD HAVE JUST A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
THE COURT: YES.
4 MR. UELMEN: NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: MISS CLARK, DO YOU HAVE ANY REDIRECT?
5 MS. CLARK: I DO, YOUR HONOR, YES.
THE COURT: OKAY.
6
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MS. CLARK:
Q SIR, YOU HAVE DEFENDANT'S B UP HERE STILL.
8 YOU EARLIER DESCRIBED FOR US A HEEL PRINT IN
BLOOD, WHAT APPEARED TO BE BLOOD.
9 A YES, I DID.
Q DO YOU SEE IT IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
10 A YES. IT IS RIGHT BELOW THE LEAVES, DIRECTLY --
IF I AM ORIENTED CORRECTLY, I WOULD BE LOOKING AT THIS GLOVE
11 AND FOOT FROM THE WEST. IT WOULD BE DIRECTLY SOUTH OF THE
GLOVE, INCHES AWAY IN A POOL OF BLOOD.
12 Q DOES THE HEEL APPEAR TO BE POINTING AWAY FROM THE
BODY OF THE VICTIM?
13 A YES, IT APPEARS TO BE WALKING IN A SOUTHWESTERLY
DIRECTION. IT WOULD BE WALKING TOWARDS THE FEMALE VICTIM.
14 Q NOW WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT 360 ROCKINGHAM, WAS IT
STILL DARK OUTSIDE?
15 A YES.
Q BY THE TIME YOU WERE LOOKING -- YOU WERE WALKING
16 DOWN THE -- THAT PATH AT THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE PROPERTY WHERE
YOU ULTIMATELY FOUND THE GLOVE, WHAT WAS THE LIGHTING
17 CONDITION LIKE IN THAT AREA?
A VERY POOR, EVEN WORSE THAN IT WAS OUT ON THE
18 STREET.
Q AND WHY WAS THAT?
19 A THE TREES HAD SHADOWED IT AND EVEN DARKENED IT
MORE THAN THE EXISTING LIGHT WOULD ALLOW. IN OTHER WORDS, AT
20 NIGHT IT WOULD BE MUCH DARKER. AND EVEN DURING THE DAY, IT
WOULD BE DARKER THAN JUST BEING OUT IN THE SUNLIGHT.
21 Q SO IT WAS -- IN THAT SHADOW, WERE YOU ABLE -- IN
THAT KIND OF DARKNESS, SIR, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE WHETHER OR
22 NOT THERE WERE ANY SHAPES OR FORMS THAT WERE BEYOND THE LIGHT
OF YOUR FLASHLIGHT?
23 A NO. AND EVEN MORE THAN THAT, I ALREADY PASSED
TWO LARGE INDENTATIONS THAT WENT BACK SEVERAL FEET INTO THE
24 BUILDING STRUCTURE. AND I DIDN'T KNOW HOW MANY OF THOSE WERE
YET TO BE SEEN GOING EAST. I WAS NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE
25 BUILDING ITSELF.
Q NOW YOU POINTED OUT THOSE INDENTATIONS, I THINK,
26 EARLIER. THEY ARE INDICATED ON THE DEFENDANT'S DIAGRAM.
DO YOU SEE THEM HERE?
27 A YES, MA'AM.
Q HOW DEEP WERE THEY?
28 A THIS FIRST INDENTATION WAS JUST MAYBE A FOOT AND
0100
1 A HALF, TWO FEET. AND THERE WAS GARBAGE CANS HERE, AND A
LITTLE BIT OF JUNK. THERE WAS A DOOR TO THE GARAGE THAT LEADS
2 INTO THE GARAGE WITH A WINDOW ON THE TOP HALF.
IN THIS AREA HERE IT WAS SEVERAL FEET DEEP, AND
3 THERE WAS AN AREA HERE THAT LED TO A CRAWL SPACE. THERE WAS A
VOLTAGE BOX EITHER HERE OR HERE (INDICATING).
4 THIS IS PROBABLY FIVE FEET DEEP, THEN IT
CONTINUES SOLID. AND I DISCOVERED THAT IT WAS SOLID ALL THE
5 WAY BACK. AND THERE WAS A WINDOW, ONE WINDOW IN THE LAST
BUNGALOW.
6 Q FIVE FEET DEEP, AND APPROXIMATELY HOW WIDE?
A OH, TEN TO FIFTEEN FEET. IT IS NOT ONLY FIVE
7 FEET HERE; IT GOES BACK FARTHER, PROBABLY AS MUCH AS TEN FEET.
SOMEBODY COULD BE SECRETED IN THAT AREA.
8 Q SO YOU WENT ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE VERY END
THAT'S INDICATED IN THE DIAGRAM THERE?
9 A YES, ALL THE WAY BACK WHERE THERE IS THIS DIAGRAM
OF SHRUBS. IT IS NOT OVERGROWN AS THIS IS DEPICTED.
10 THIS AREA, FAIRLY LARGE, IS COMPLETELY OPEN AND
IT LOOKED LIKE -- LIKE I SAID, A POTTING AREA FOR GROWING
11 YOUNG PLANTS SO THEY COULD BE TRANSPLANTED INTO THE LANDSCAPE
IN THE MAIN HOUSE.
12 Q YOU LOOKED AROUND BACK THERE AS WELL?
A YES, I LOOKED THERE IN THE SHRUBS AND ATTEMPTED
13 TO GET AS FAR BACK AS I COULD ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS FENCE.
I COULDN'T TELL WHAT WAS BACK THERE, BUT I WASN'T DRESSED IN
14 ATTIRE THAT I COULD REALLY GO TOO FAR.
Q SO THAT WAS EVEN AFTER YOU FOUND THE GLOVE, YOU
15 CONTINUED BACK THERE?
A YES.
16 Q LOOKING FOR?
A I WAS LOOKING FOR A VICTIM, A PERSON WHO COULD
17 HAVE LEFT THE GLOVE. WHAT I SAW ON THE GLOVE I THOUGHT WAS
BLOOD, AND THAT ALERTED ME EVEN MORE.
18 Q NOW YOU EARLIER INDICATED THAT YOU SAW THE BLOODY
SHOE PRINTS AND THE BLOOD DROPS TO THE LEFT OF THOSE SHOE
19 PRINTS IN A DIRECTION THAT SEEMED TO LEAD AWAY TOWARDS THE
ALLEY OF THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
20 A YES.
Q DID THAT OBSERVATION HAVE ANY IMPACT ON THE
21 SIGNIFICANCE YOU PLACED ON THE BLOOD ON THE DOOR HANDLE THAT
YOU INITIALLY SAW ON THE FORD BRONCO?
22 A WELL, THE BLOOD TO THE LEFT OF THE FOOTPRINT
WOULD INDICATE THAT THERE WAS AN INJURY TO THE LEFT SIDE OF
23 THE BODY.
THE SPOT ON THE TRUCK, YOU -- THE DRIVER'S SIDE,
24 YOU WOULD OPEN THE DOOR WITH YOUR LEFT HAND. THAT COULD
INDICATE THAT THE PERSON THAT LEFT THE SCENE WAS BLEEDING FROM
25 A FOOT, AN ARM, A HAND, FROM THE LEFT SIDE OF HIS BODY. AND
THE SPOT ON THE BRONCO COULD COINCIDE WITH THAT INJURY.
26 I MIGHT ADD THAT THAT COULD HAVE ALSO BEEN
SOMEONE THAT FLED THE SCENE, NOT BEING A SUSPECT. AND THAT
27 WAS ALSO IN MY MIND, NOT KNOWING EXACTLY WHAT TRANSPIRED AT
THAT TIME.
28 Q RIGHT.
0101
1 SO WHEN YOU GOT TO 360 ROCKINGHAM, DID YOU
BELIEVE THAT YOU WERE NECESSARILY AT THE RESIDENCE OF A
2 SUSPECT?
A NO, I DIDN'T.
3 Q AND WHY WAS IT THAT YOU DID NOT SECURE THE
RESIDENCE FOR A SEARCH WARRANT BEFORE FINDING THE GLOVE?
4 A WELL, I THINK AT THAT TIME IF WE DID THAT, I
THINK WE HAD ENOUGH OF AN EMERGENCY SITUATION THAT I THINK WE
5 WERE OBLIGATED TO, IF WE COULD, TO PRESERVE LIFE IF THAT WAS
THE SITUATION. AND THAT'S WHAT WE ATTEMPTED TO DO.
6 IF WE WOULD HAVE TAKEN THE TIME, GIVEN A
TELEPHONIC SEARCH WARRANT, WE ARE STILL TALKING 20, 30, 40, 50
7 MINUTES. THIS IS NOT A SITUATION WHERE WE HAD THE TIME TO
STAND OUT IN THE STREET AND JUST WAIT AND WONDER. WE HAD TO
8 DO SOMETHING.
Q SO WHEN YOU WENT OVER THAT WALL, WERE YOU LOOKING
9 TO GATHER PROBABLE CAUSE, OR WERE YOU LOOKING TO SAVE LIVES?
A SAVE LIVES.
10 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
THE COURT: I TAKE IT, MR. UELMEN, THAT YOU HAVE SOME
11 ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS?
MR. UELMEN: YES, I DO, YOUR HONOR.
12 THE COURT: ARE THEY GOING TO BE LENGTHY?
MR. UELMEN: THEY MAY BE.
13 THE COURT: IT IS 4:30 RIGHT NOW, SO I THINK WE WILL
STOP AT THIS POINT. WE WILL CONTINUE WITH THIS TOMORROW
14 MORNING AT 9:00 O'CLOCK.
I REMIND YOU, PLEASE DO NOT DISCUSS YOUR
15 TESTIMONY WITH ANYONE EXCEPT THE LAWYERS IN THIS CASE.
THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR.
16 THE COURT: YOU MAY STEP DOWN. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
MISS CAPLAN, DID YOU STILL WANT THE COURT TO
17 INTERVENE IN THE MATTER?
MS. CAPLAN: NO, I AM GOING TO MEET WITH THEM
18 TOMORROW.
(THE PROCEEDINGS WERE RECESSED AT 4:30 P.M.)
19
-OOO-
20
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22
23
24
25
26
27
28
0102
1 IN THE MUNICIPAL COURT, LOS ANGELES JUDICIAL DISTRICT
2 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES, STATE OF CALIFORNIA
3
4 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, )
5 PLAINTIFF, ) NO. BA097211
6 VS. )
7 )
8 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
9 AKA O.J. SIMPSON, )
10 )
11 DEFENDANT. )
12
STATE OF CALIFORNIA )
13 ) SS.
COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES )
14
15 I HEREBY CERTIFY THAT I AM AN OFFICIAL C.A.T.
16 COURT REPORTER OF THE ABOVE-ENTITLED COURT; THAT I DID
17 CORRECTLY REPORT THE PROCEEDINGS CONTAINED HEREIN; AND
18 THAT THE FOREGOING IS A TRUE AND CORRECT STATEMENT OF
19 PROCEEDINGS AND TRANSCRIPTION OF MY SAID NOTES.
20
21 DATED THIS 5TH DAY OF JULY, 1994.
22
23
24
ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
25 OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
26
27 LAURIE A. SMALL, CSR #4654
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
28
0100
1 IN THE MUNICIPAL COURT OF LOS ANGELES JUDICIAL DISTRICT
2 COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES, STATE OF CALIFORNIA
3 HON. KATHLEEN KENNEDY-POWELL, JUDGE; DEPARTMENT 105
4
5 THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, )
6 PLAINTIFF, )
7 ) NO. BA097211
8 VS. )
9 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, ) VOLUME 7
10 AKA O.J. SIMPSON, )
11 )
12 DEFENDANT. )
13
14 REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
15 TUESDAY, JULY 5, 1994
16
APPEARANCES:
17
FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MARCIA CLARK,
18 WILLIAM HODGMAN
DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
19
FOR THE DEFENDANT: ROBERT SHAPIRO,
20 PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
21
22 SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES
23
24
25
ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
26 LAURIE A. SMALL, CSR #4654
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
27
28