Preliminary Hearing - July 1, 1994

 04                                        )
 05                         PLAINTIFF,     )
 05                                        )
 06                 VS.                    )
 06                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )   VOLUME 3
 07 AKA O.J. SIMPSON                       )
 08                                        )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                         DEFENDANT(S).  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 12                    FRIDAY, JULY 1, 1994
 13                           -OO0OO-
 15                              WILLIAM HODGMAN
 16                              DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
 18                              GERALD UELMEN
 18                              PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
 25                               ROSE M. FORBESS, CSR NO. 4853
 25                               OFFICIAL CAT REPORTER
 26                               524 COURTHOUSE
 26                               110 NORTH GRAND AVENUE
 27                               LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
 27                               90012
 28                               TELEPHONE NO. (213) 974-8713
 01                  LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA;
 02                    FRIDAY, JULY 1, 1994
 03                          9:00 A.M.
 04                           -OO0OO-
 06         THE COURT:  Good morning.
 07         MR. SHAPIRO:  GOOD MORNING, your Honor.
 08         MR. UELMAN:  good morning, your Honor.
 09         THE COURT:  We're again on the record in the case
 10 of People versus Simpson.  The defendant is present with
 11 counsel.  The people are represented.
 12              Call your next witness, please.
 13         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, we have a motion we'd
 14 like the make at this time.
 15         THE COURT:  Okay.
 16         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, we'd ask the court to
 17 consider striking the testimony of Mr. Camacho, as being a
 18 witness that has been presented by the District Attorney,
 19 who the District Attorney does not believe.
 20              The Los Angeles Times, in their lead story
 21 this morning --
 22         MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, I'm going to object at
 23 this time.
 24              I would ask for an offer of proof, and I would
 25 ask to be able to approach.  Because I don't want anything
 26 unfair, improper or prejudicial to get into the record.
 27              I'm not sure what Mr. Shapiro is going to
 28 read, but we're dealing with a media source.
 01              One of the things that miss Clark and I have
 02 enjoyed thus far about this proceeding, is the ability to
 03 present evidence in court, in a lawyer-like fashion.
 04              So, your Honor, if we may, may we approach, so
 05 we can discuss this in a more professional manner?
 06         THE COURT:  I mean aren't -- let's have the walkie
 07 talkies off.
 08              Anything that we're going to talk about is
 09 going to be recorded.  Are you asking for, like a sidebar
 10 on this?
 11         MR. HODGMAN:  Yes.
 12         THE COURT:  I'll see the lawyers in chambers first,
 13 with the reporter.
 14         MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you, your Honor.
 01                        (IN CHAMBERS)
 03         THE COURT:  All right.  The record should reflect
 04 that we're in chambers, that MISS Clark and Mr. Hodgman are
 05 present.  Mr. UELMEN and Mr. SHAPIRO are present.
 06         MR. SHAPIRO:  YES, YOUR HONOR.
 07         THE COURT:  By the way, I haven't read the paper.
 08         MR. SHAPIRO:  I just GLANCED at it.
 09              THE lead story is written by senior times
 10 writer Jim Newton and Andrea FORD.  And it quotes miss
 11 Clark as follows:  "PROSECUTOR MARCIA Clark said after the
 12 hearing, that, quote, 'PATTY,'" END QUOTE, "is Patty Joe
 13 FAIRBANKS," comma, "senior secretary in the special trials
 14 division." period.
 15         MS. CLARK:  I did not tell her that.
 16         MR. SHAPIRO:  "CLARK --"
 17         THE COURT:  just a minute, let him finish.
 18         MR. SHAPIRO:  "Clark," comma, "however, denied that
 19 FAIRBANKS gave Camacho approval to talk." period.  Quote,
 20 "I was there," comma, end QUOTE, "Clark said." Period.
 21 Quote, "I can tell you that she did not tell him that he
 22 could talk to the press." period.  "I can guarantee you
 23 that 200 percent,"comma, "absolutely." end QUOTE.
 24         MR. HODGMAN:  Your Honor, my concern is simply
 25 this, and I'm sure my concern is shared by the court.
 26 We're trying, under difficult circumstances for all of us,
 27 to preserve THE Integrity of these proceedings.
 28              It is very difficult to ensure fairness for
 01 all parties, under this intense media SCRUTINY.  I think
 02 you know the testimony of Mr. CAMACHO, GAVE us some idea of
 03 the type of pressure that all sorts of people are under in
 04 this matter.
 05              With regard to this particular article, first
 06 of all, Mr. Camacho, as a matter of record yesterday, on
 07 REDIRECT, stated that HE WAS less than certain about
 08 whatever directions A Patty gave to him.
 09              Secondly, miss Clark can ATTEST to the factual
 10 nature of whatever she -- whatever she said yesterday, and
 11 I think a record should be made of that.
 12              And, finally, I just don't THINK this is fair,
 13 to be doing this in a court of law.  The credibility is a
 14 matter for the court to decide.
 15         THE COURT:  You know, I mean, I don't know that you
 16 finished your motion, because there was a request that we
 17 come back here.  And basically, I guess you're going to ask
 18 me to strike Mr. CAMACHO'S testimony as what?  Some kind of
 19 a sanction?  Because you're saying that miss Clark
 20 disbelieves his part of the testimony, where he claimed
 21 that Patty OSTENSIBLY gave him some kind of authority to
 22 speak to the press?
 23         MR. SHAPIRO:  First, I'd like to ask for a
 24 hearing.  At that hearing, I would LIKE to have Jim Newton
 25 testify as to whether or not this quote was given by
 26 miss Clark.
 27              If this QUOTE was given, because I certainly
 28 agree, that people can be misquoted, jim Newton, in my
 01 experience, is a very, very careful reporter, and takes
 02 copious notes.  And generally READS quotes back to people,
 03 especially on very, very important areas.
 04              So, first, I'd like to establish whether or
 05 not Mr. Newton can substantiate this was said by
 06 miss Clark.  If that can be Substantiated, then I would ask
 07 the court to consider striking the testimony, both as
 08 sanctions or, in the alternative, based on the fact that
 09 the people are not fulfilling their duty of fair play and
 10 FUNDAMENTAL justice in presenting credible witnesses.
 11              They are in a position where if Mr. Newton is
 12 correct, and this quote attributed to miss Clark is
 13 correct, that they are calling their witness a liar.
 14         MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, may have I address that?
 15         THE COURT:  Yes.
 16         MS. CLARK:  Number one, I did not speak to Jim
 17 Newton, I spoke to Andrea FORD.
 18              I'd like to see the article, please, if I may,
 19 counsel.  I'd like to see the entire quote.
 20              Number one, I think that is inaccurate, in
 21 that I was not the one who told them who Patty was.
 22 Someone in our media relations department did that.  So,
 23 that's inaccurate.
 24              Number two, what concerns me is that this has
 25 almost no bearing on the credibility of the witness.  And
 26 to the extent that I have indicated that he did -- what
 27 patty did or did not say, Has to do with what the witness
 28 understood.
 01              A lot of us can be ascribed to
 02 misunderstanding by a witness, who we were able to observe
 03 in court.  English is not his first language.  He was
 04 considerably rattled at the time he was testifying.  I
 05 think that was visible to the court.
 06              The idea concerning credibility of any witness
 07 is something that is solely for the court to determine.
 08 And whether or not this aspect of his testimony is critical
 09 to the balance of his testimony, is something for the court
 10 to determine, also.
 11              But our disagreement as to the instructions
 12 PATTY Joe gave this witness, has nothing to do with the
 13 credibility of his testimony concerning the sale of the
 14 knife, which is the key to his testimony.  That's what he
 15 was here appearing about.
 16              Now, whether or not he was given permission,
 17 he said he was instructed by Patty Joe to go to the media,
 18 and that was the question posed to me, "did Patty Joe tell
 19 him to go and talk to press?"  And my answer was, "NO, she
 20 did not."
 21              And he never testified to that, either.  He
 22 testified that she said, I believe -- and we can have it
 23 read back -- that he could do what he wanted, that whatever
 24 he wanted to do, it was up to him.
 25         THE COURT:  I thought that he more said that they
 26 couldn't do anything to stop him.
 27         MS. CLARK:  Right.  It could not be prevented.
 28         THE COURT:  Something to that effect.
 01         MS. CLARK:  That is exactly -- if I could look at
 02 what the balance of my quote was, I know what I said, I do
 03 not know whether it was completely reported.  I know what I
 04 said.
 05              And if I may be allowed to -- no, they did not
 06 complete the statement I gave to Andrea FORD.
 07              I told Andrea FORD that she said exactly that,
 08 she said that he -- no, this is not accurately quoted here,
 09 she did not -- okay.  I can tell you that she did not tell
 10 him that he could talk to the press.  I can guarantee you
 11 that 200 percent, absolutely.  So, that is correct.  The
 12 balance of my statement was that she told him she could not
 13 prevent him, but that she urged him not to.  And that was
 14 what the instructions were.
 15              However, I don't see why this should be the
 16 basis of a motion to strike his testimony.  We aren't
 17 indicating disbelief.  And whatever my belief is concerning
 18 this witness, about the instructions given to him by PATTY
 19 Joe, has no bearing on the Court's duty to determine his
 20 credibility.
 21         THE COURT:  I just feel that we're not going to get
 22 anywhere with this, Mr. SHAPIRO.  What miss Clark did or
 23 did not say to the press, with regard to this particular
 24 witness, I just don't see that that somehow is going to
 25 rise to some kind of a level, even if it's the worse case
 26 scenario, of supposedly what the version of what she said
 27 was, that somehow they should be sanctioned, or that Mr.
 28 camacho's testimony should be stricken.
 01              I mean the credibility of his testimony is in
 02 Question, based upon everything he said, and the
 03 motivations involved.  and, you know, the demeanor and
 04 manner, and so forth, as they would be with any witness.
 05              And I just don't see that the D.A. making some
 06 comment, and her comment, even as it's reported, isn't that
 07 I believe he's lying.  The comment is that that's not the
 08 way it happened.
 09              But Mr. Camacho may have his own recollection,
 10 and may be very honest in his belief as to his own
 11 recollection of what happened.
 12              Even so, I don't think that it rises to some
 13 kind of a level that somehow Mr. Simpson is being denied of
 14 due process, or there's been misconduct engaged in by the
 15 prosecution, to justify the court striking his testimony.
 16              And it is, indeed, my call as to credibility.
 17 And I, quite frankly, don't care what the paper says about
 18 the witnesses, and I don't care what miss Clark says about
 19 how the witnesses did, or what Mr. Hodgman says, or what
 20 you or Mr. UELMEN, or anyone else says about how they did.
 21 Ultimately, I'm going to have to decide.
 22         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, may I address the issue
 23 of due process?
 24         THE COURT:  Yes.
 25         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.  This incident, in and of
 26 itself, is something that I would clearly agree with the
 27 court's position on, and it would not be raised if this was
 28 something isolated.  But we have several other events
 01 leading up to this incident.
 02              Last weekend, we had the 911 tapes being
 03 released.  We had the District Attorney of Los Angeles
 04 stating that he had no knowledge of them being released,
 05 that they were released by the city attorney.
 06              We had the chief of police of Los Angeles,
 07 Willie Williams, on television, saying that is not the
 08 case, that he talked directly to a member of the
 09 prosecution team in the D.A.'S office, told him about it,
 10 and they authorized him to release the tapes.
 11              Now, we have the position of the D.A. saying
 12 that the foreperson of a grand jury telling somebody under
 13 penalty of contempt, "do not discuss this with anyone."
 14 and a representative of the District Attorney's Office
 15 says, "do what you want.  You can talk to whoever you
 16 want."  Coupled with the strong positions that the
 17 prosecutors have taken in this case publicly, that
 18 Mr. Simpson is guilty, that Mr. simpson is likely to
 19 confess, and that Mr. Simpson is the sole killer, at some
 20 point in time, we have a vested interest by the prosecutor
 21 in gaining a conviction.
 22              And at some point in time, if we have things
 23 that are released, that are inadmissible or questionably
 24 admissible, and we continue to have comments to the press
 25 that are prejudicial, and we continue to have the District
 26 Attorney's office either have some credibility problems as
 27 to whether or not they allowed prejudicial material to be
 28 released, or, in this case, did not do everything to
 01 dissuade a witness from publicly discussing this with the
 02 press, under order by the foreperson of the grand jury, I
 03 think we're running into due process problems.
 04              I think it's something that the court should
 05 seriously look at.
 06         THE COURT:  Well, one of the things, hopefully,
 07 that this preliminary hearing is affording to both sides,
 08 is the opportunity to have the evidence come out in a court
 09 with everyone present.  And anyone who's interested, and
 10 apparently a lot of people are, can watch and hear it and
 11 see it.
 12              And, I mean, I think that does a lot to
 13 counteract all of these unnamed sources, or all this stuff
 14 that's been coming out about this case since it began, and
 15 printed in the paper, on news reports and -- I mean I think
 16 and I hope, that this is, in fact, contributing to the
 17 fairness of the proceedings with regard to Mr. Simpson,
 18 and perhaps restoring some confidence, and the confidence
 19 of the lawyers in the system, that this is where the guilt
 20 or innocence is going to be determined.
 21              And, you know, dealing with the media,
 22 obviously, is a difficult issue for everyone.  But I don't
 23 think that every time that there's some kind of a report,
 24 and some kind of a quotation, that I'm in a position to do
 25 something.  I mean, the 911 tapes release is a whole other
 26 issue, and I don't think I have any jurisdiction, anything
 27 I can do with that, whatsoever.
 28              I don't think that miss Clark's statement is
 01 tantamount to saying that she thinks Mr. Camacho is a liar.
 02 She has her own version of apparently the instructions,
 03 and -- but I just don't see where that implicates the due
 04 process.  I mean everybody had a chance to see Mr. Camacho
 05 and draw their own conclusions.
 06         MR. SHAPIRO:  I just wanted to make the record.
 07              second matter.
 08         MS. CLARK:  in That case, I think I should
 09 indicate, if we're making records, that Mr. Shapiro has not
 10 accurately reflected many of the events he is attempting to
 11 depict for the court.  Especially considering the 911
 12 tape.  There is another side to that, I don't want to take
 13 up the court's time with it, because I agree, it's not
 14 something that has any part of this hearing.  Unless the
 15 court wants me to air that side, and the court is shaking
 16 its head no.
 17         THE COURT:  No.
 18         MS. CLARK:  I will not.
 19              Let me just indicate, then, for the record,
 20 that I do object to his rendition of the events that
 21 transpired prior to this preliminary hearing.  So, I'll
 22 leave it at that, and put off further comment until any
 23 time the court thinks it --
 24         MR. SHAPIRO:  We filed it under affidavit, that I
 25 have filed under penalty of perjury, we filed a declaration
 26 under penalty of perjury, re-alleging the specific events.
 27 if i misspoke, I was trying to summarize, in generalities,
 28 of what took place prior to this.
 01         THE COURT:  I really don't want us to lose the
 02 focus of the purpose of this preliminary hearing, and I
 03 think this is kind of a side issue, that really doesn't --
 04 we're not progressing, either side, by, you know, dealing
 05 with the sort of individual personal attacks from one
 06 lawyer to the other, the suggestions or innuendo that
 07 someone's not being forthright.
 08              I would like to see if that could be avoided,
 09 and we can just professionally carry on with putting on
 10 this particular case.
 11         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, one other matter I called
 12 to Mr. Hodgman's attention to last night, that we had two
 13 taped interviews of two witnesses, that were on
 14 microcassette disk, and that we were going to transfer them
 15 last night to cassette disk.
 16              We did not have the equipment to do that,
 17 we're working on that today, and hopefully, I'll have that
 18 by noon to give to Mr. Hodgman.
 19         MS. CLARK:  In view of that, those witnesses will
 20 not be called until we have the tapes in hand, and have had
 21 an opportunity to hear them.
 22              This is a very late date to turn over a tape
 23 of an interview, that was conducted certainly way before
 24 this preliminary hearing began.  And I will have to change
 25 the witness order, and call the remaining civilian
 26 witnesses in lieu of those two.
 27         THE COURT:  All right.  So, you think by noon
 28 you're going to have that, and you're going to be able to
 01 turn this over to miss Clark?
 02         MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.  Each tape is approximately a
 03 half hour.
 04         THE COURT:  And these are interviews of witnesses
 05 that were listed on the prosecution's witness list?
 06         MR. SHAPIRO:  they're interviews of a man referred
 07 to as Kato, who lives in the guest house at the Simpson
 08 house.  And a man referred to as Mr. Allen, who was the
 09 limousine driver.
 10         THE COURT:  All right.  In light of that, are you
 11 going to have sufficient witnesses to fill today?
 12         MS. CLARK:  I may.  I don't know how long cross
 13 will be, once again, but I think I may, and I would
 14 certainly attempt to do so.
 15         THE COURT:  All right.  Then let's go out there and
 16 go to work.
 17         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you, Judge.
 18         MS. CLARK:  Thank you, your Honor.
 19         MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you.
 04                                        )  no. BA097211
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06             VS.                        )
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                                        )
 10                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 12                        )   SS
 22           DATED THIS 1st DAY OF July, 1994.
 24                _____________________________________
 24                       ROSE FORBESS, CSR #4853
 25                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 04                                        )
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06                 VS.                    )   VOLUME 4
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 13                   FRIDAY, JULY 1, 1994
 16                              WILLIAM HODGMAN
 17                              DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
 19                              PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
 26                              ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 26                              ROSE FORBESS, CSR #4853
 27                              OFFICIAL COURT REPORTERS
 01                        I N D E X
 01                                                     VOIR
 03 KAREN LEE CRAWFORD       4     12
 04 STEWART TANNER          14     18     19
 05 PABLO FENJVES           23     27
 06 STEVEN SCHWAB           34     52     67
 07 SUKRU BOZTEPE           75     84     86
 08 BETTINA RASMUSSEN       87     92
 11                          -O0O-
 14                         EXHIBITS
 17 4 - series of photos                   11
 18 5 - SERIES OF PHOTOS                   83
 02                 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
 03                   Friday, July 1, 1994
 04                          -O0O-
 06         THE COURT:  All right.  We're again on the
 07 record, in the case of People versus Simpson.  The
 08 defendant is present with counsel.  The people are
 09 represented.
 10              We did have a conference in chambers.  The
 11 court has denied a motion to strike Mr. Camacho's
 12 testimony.
 13              Miss Clark.
 14         MS. CLARK:  Yes, your Honor, briefly.  I'm going to
 15 turn over pages numbered L-26 to L-128, these are further
 16 lab notes concerning the evaluation of evidence for the
 17 purpose of D.N.A. analysis.  I'm handing them to
 18 Mr. UELMEN.
 19         THE COURT:  Call your next witness, please.
 20         MS. CLARK:  Thank you, your Honor.  The people call
 21 miss Karen Crawford.
 22         THE COURT:  Face the clerk and raise your right
 23 hand, please.
 24         THE COURT CLERK:  You do solemnly swear the
 25 testimony you are about to give in the cause now pending
 26 before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
 27 nothing but the truth, so help you God.
 28         THE WITNESS:  I do.
 01                     karen lee crawford,
 04         THE COURT CLERK:  Please be seated.  State and
 05 spell your name for the record.
 06         THE WITNESS:  Karen Lee Crawford, K-A-R-E-N, L-E-E,
 07 C-R-A-W-F-O-R-D.
 08         THE COURT:  You may inquire.
 10                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 12         Q    Good morning, miss Crawford.
 13         A    Morning.
 14         Q    Please tell us what you do for a living.
 15         A    I work at Mezzaluna.
 16         Q    What do you do there?
 17         A    I'm a bartender, and I manage the restaurant
 18 on Sundays.
 19         Q    I'm going to ask you to sit forward, keep your
 20 voice up a little.  It's hard to hear you.
 21              Comfortable?
 22         A    (WITNESS NODS HEAD).
 23         Q    Can you tell us again what you do at the
 24 Mezzaluna?
 25         A    I bar tend, and I manage on Sundays.
 26         Q    Where is the Mezzaluna located?
 27         A    It's on the corner of San Vicente and Gorham,
 28 in brentwood.
 01         Q    Is that near to the location of Bundy and
 02 Dorothy, or Bundy and San Vicente?
 03         A    Yes.
 04         Q    How long have you worked there?
 05         A    I've worked there for one year.
 06         Q    Were you employed there as the bar manager on
 07 June the 12th, 1994?
 08         A    Yes.
 09         Q    And do you recall that being a Sunday?
 10         A    Yes, It was.
 11         Q    Now, since it was a Sunday, what were your
 12 duties on that day?
 13         A    I got in at 3:30.  I reconciled the books from
 14 the day before, set up for the evening.  I run the floor,
 15 and at the end of the evening, I run the reports and close
 16 up.
 17         Q    What time did you get there on June 12th?
 18         A    3:30.
 19         Q    I show you a couple of photographs,
 20 people's 2 for identification.
 21              Can you tell me if you recognize who's shown
 22 in that photograph?
 23         A    Yes.
 24         Q    Who is that?
 25         A    That's Ron Goldman.
 26         Q    And showing you People's 3.  Do you recognize
 27 who's shown in that photograph?
 28         A    Yes, that's Nicole brown.
 01         Q    Now, the person you've identified as Ron
 02 Goldman, how did you know him?
 03         A    I worked with him.
 04         Q    Did he work at the Mezzaluna with you?
 05         A    Yes, he did.  He was a waiter.
 06         Q    And how long had he been working there?
 07         A    For about four months.
 08         Q    And that's as long as you knew him?
 09         A    Yes.
 10         Q    How did you know Nicole brown?
 11         A    I had seen her in the restaurant occasionally.
 12         Q    Did she come to the restaurant fairly often?
 13         A    As far as I know, she did.  I only saw her, in
 14 the course of a year, three or four times.
 15         Q    During this three or four times that she came,
 16 did you ever speak to her?
 17         A    A couple of times, just to say hello, or to
 18 help her with something.
 19         Q    And enough to know her voice?
 20         A    Yeah.
 21         Q    On June the 12th, 1994, can you tell me if you
 22 saw Ron Goldman at the restaurant?
 23         A    Yes, he was there.
 24         Q    Was he working?
 25         A    He was working, yes.
 26         Q    And did you see Nicole brown there?
 27         A    Yes.
 28         Q    Do you recall what time she arrived?
 01         A    Her party arrived between 6:30 and 7:00 that
 02 evening.
 03         Q    When you say, "her party," she was not alone
 04 then?
 05         A    No.
 06         Q    How many people was she with?
 07         A    She was in a party of ten.
 08         Q    Did that party include children as well as
 09 adults?
 10         A    Yes.
 11         Q    At some point, did you notice at what time
 12 Nicole and her party left?
 13         A    They left, I would say, between 8:30 and 9:00.
 14         Q    Can you tell us if you remember what she wore
 15 that night?
 16         A    Yeah.  She was wearing a black halter dress.
 17         Q    Was it short?
 18         A    It was mid thigh.
 19         Q    Now, so Nicole and her party left between 8:30
 20 an 9:00?
 21         A    Yes.
 22         Q    At some point after they left, did you receive
 23 a phone call?
 24         A    Yes, I did.
 25         Q    Did you recognize the voice of the person that
 26 you spoke to on the phone?
 27         A    Yes, I did.
 28         Q    And who did you recognize that voice to belong
 01 to?
 02         A    It was the voice of the older woman in the
 03 party, in Nicole's party.
 04         Q    And the woman said something to you?
 05         A    Yes.
 06         Q    based on what she said, what did you do?
 07         A    I looked around the restaurant, and I also
 08 looked outside, for a pair of glasses.
 09         Q    Did you find it?
 10         A    Yes, I did.
 11         Q    Where did you find it?
 12         A    I found them outside, where I had seen them
 13 getting out of the vehicle.  They were in the gutter, a few
 14 inches away from the curb.
 15         Q    So you saw Nicole and her party arrive?
 16         A    Yes.
 17         Q    And you saw them get out of the car?
 18         A    Yes.
 19         Q    And is that where you found the glasses?
 20         A    Yes, I found them right there.
 21         Q    And what did you do with them when you got
 22 them?
 23         A    I went back to the phone, told the woman I had
 24 found the glasses, and I put them in an envelope.
 25         Q    Did you ask her something?
 26         A    I asked her if she would be coming by the
 27 restaurant that evening to pick them up.
 28         Q    What kind of envelope did you put those
 01 glasses in?
 02         A    Business-size envelope, a long rectangular
 03 one, white.
 04         Q    Did you write anything on it?
 05         A    Yes.
 06         Q    What did you write?
 07         A    I wrote, "Nicole Simpson," and below that I
 08 wrote, "prescription glasses."
 09         Q    Did you seal the envelope?
 10         A    Yes, I did.
 11         Q    so then you asked if she would be picking up
 12 the glasses that night, she gave you a response to that, I
 13 take it?
 14         A    Yes.
 15         Q    And based on her response, you put those
 16 glasses into the envelope, wrote on it, "Nicole Simpson,
 17 prescription glasses," and sealed it?
 18         A    Yes.
 19         Q    And then where did you put the envelope?
 20         A    I placed the envelope behind the bar.
 21         Q    Did you get any other phone calls that night?
 22         A    Yes.
 23         Q    How long after that first phone call from the
 24 woman in the Nicole simpson's party, did you get the second
 25 phone call?
 26         A    I would say five minutes.
 27         Q    What time did you get the first phone call?
 28         A    I would say around 9:30.
 01         Q    And so the second phone call would be --
 02         A    9:35 or so.
 03         Q    Did you recognize the voice of the person on
 04 that second phone call?
 05         A    Yes, I did.
 06         Q    Whose voice was that?
 07         A    It was Nicole's voice.
 08         Q    And you had a conversation with her?
 09         A    Yes.
 10         Q    Did she ask you to do something?
 11         A    Yes.
 12         Q    What was that?
 13         A    She asked me if I could get Ron on the phone.
 14         Q    What did you do?
 15         A    I went over to where Ron was sitting, and I
 16 told him that Nicole was on the phone, and she wanted to
 17 speak to him.
 18         Q    What did he do?
 19         A    He took the call.
 20         Q    Did he stay by you as he spoke on the phone?
 21         A    Yeah, I was standing near him when he was on
 22 the phone.
 23         Q    And they had a conversation for a while?
 24         A    For a couple of minutes, yeah.
 25         Q    After they had that conversation, what
 26 happened next?
 27         A    I gave him the glasses.
 28         Q    So, you had a conversation with Nicole, after
 01 which you gave the phone to Ron, who spoke to her, and then
 02 you gave Ron the glasses?
 03         A    Yes.
 04         Q    Did you see when he left the restaurant?
 05         A    Yes, I did.
 06         Q    And when was that?
 07         A    I would say at about 10 minutes to 10:00.
 08         Q    Do you know what exit he used when he left the
 09 restaurant?
 10         A    He used the side exit that goes out to Gorham.
 11         Q    Is that exit near the bar area in your
 12 restaurant?
 13         A    Yes.
 14         Q    Do you happen to know who was tending that bar
 15 that night?
 16         A    Stewart was tending bar, Stewart Tanner.
 17         MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, I have here a series of
 18 photographs.  I'm going to ask that they now be marked as
 19 People's 4.
 20         THE COURT:  All right.
 21         MS. CLARK:  At this time, your Honor, I'm going to
 22 ask to mark the color photographs label on that as C and F.
 23              Showing it to the defense.
 24         Q    Miss Crawford, if you can, can you see this
 25 photograph?
 26         A    Yes.
 27         Q    I'm directing your attention specifically on
 28 People's 4, to the photograph labeled as F.  Can you tell
 01 me if you recognize what that is?
 02         A    It's an envelope.
 03         Q    Does it appear to be the kind of envelope you
 04 used to put the glasses into, on the night of June the
 05 12th, which you labeled, "Nicole Simpson, prescription
 06 glasses"?
 07         A    Yes.
 08         MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 09         THE COURT:  Mr. SHAPIRO?
 10         MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, your Honor, thank you very much.
 12                      CROSS-EXAMINATION
 14         Q    Good morning, miss Crawford.
 15         A    Good morning.
 16         Q    The glasses that you found, did you find them
 17 on the black top?
 18         A    They were just a few inches off of the gutter,
 19 yes, on the asphalt.
 20         Q    When you went to call Ron Goldman to the
 21 phone, where was he?
 22         A    He was sitting at table 101, which is the very
 23 first table to the left of the front entrance.
 24         Q    Who was he with, if anyone?
 25         A    He was sitting with John and Richard, John
 26 De Bello, the manager, and Richard Arbalino.
 27         Q    What were they doing?
 28         A    They were having dinner.
 01         Q    Did you notice anything of an alcoholic
 02 beverage at the table?
 03         A    No, I don't recall.
 04         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 05              Nothing further.
 06         THE COURT:  Any redirect?
 07         MS. CLARK:  No, thank you, your Honor.
 08         THE COURT:  Thank you, miss Crawford.  I'm going to
 09 remind you, until you have been officially excused from
 10 giving testimony in this matter, you are not to talk about
 11 your testimony with anyone.  Thank you very much.
 12              Next witness.
 13         MS. CLARK:  People call Mr. Stewart Tanner.
 14         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, is it necessary to leave
 15 the photographs up for the next witness?
 16         MS. CLARK:  No.  I was about to take them down.
 17         THE COURT:  All right.
 18              Face the clerk and please raise your right
 19 hand, please, sir.
 20         THE COURT CLERK:  You do solemnly swear the
 21 testimony you are about to give in the cause now pending
 22 before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
 23 nothing but the truth, so help you God.
 24         THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do
 26                     Stewart tanner,
 01         THE COURT CLERK:  Please be seated.
 02              Please state your name state, and spell your
 03 name for the record.
 04         THE WITNESS:  Stewart Tanner, S-T-E-W-A-R-T,
 05 T-A-N-N-E-R.
 06         THE COURT:  Thank you.
 07              You may inquire.
 08         MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 10                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 12         Q    Good morning, Mr. tanner.
 13         A    Good morning.
 14         Q    Can you tell us where you work, sir?
 15         A    The Mezzaluna, in Brentwood.
 16         Q    Where is that located, exactly?
 17         A    11750 San Vicente.
 18         Q    Is that near the intersection of San
 19 Vicente -- Bundy and San Vicente -- excuse me, Bundy and
 20 Dorothy?
 21         A    Yes, it is.
 22         Q    How long have you worked there as a waiter?
 23         A    Since November of '93.
 24         Q    Do you have some other duties, as well as
 25 being a waiter there, sir?
 26         A    I bar tend occasionally.  Well, basically
 27 Saturday, Sunday and Monday evenings.
 28         Q    Showing you photographs that have been
 01 previously marked as People's 2 and 3.
 02              First of all, People's 2, sir, do you
 03 recognize the person shown there?
 04         A    Yes, I do.
 05         Q    who is that?
 06         A    Ron Goldman.
 07         Q    And the person shown in People's 3?
 08         A    Nicole brown.
 09         Q    With respect to Ron Goldman, how did you
 10 meet him, sir?
 11         A    We were co-workers.
 12         Q    He worked at the Mezzaluna also?
 13         A    Yes, he did.
 14         Q    In what capacity?
 15         A    As a waiter.
 16         Q    Had you known him before he worked there?
 17         A    No, I did not.
 18         Q    You met him there then?
 19         A    Yes.
 20         Q    And Nicole brown, how did you get to know her?
 21         A    She was a customer at the restaurant.
 22         Q    Now, were you working there on the night of
 23 June 12th, 1994?
 24         A    Yes, I was.
 25         Q    In what capacity were you working there on the
 26 night of June 12th?
 27         A    As a bartender.
 28         Q    Did you see Ron Goldman there that night?
 01         A    Yes, I did.
 02         Q    Was he working?
 03         A    Yes.
 04         Q    Did you see Nicole brown there that night?
 05         A    Yes, I did.
 06         Q    Did you happen to notice whether she was alone
 07 or with another party?
 08         A    Nicole was with her family and children.
 09         Q    How large was that party?
 10         A    A group of approximately ten.
 11         Q    Did you make some plans with Ron Goldman for
 12 later that evening?
 13         A    We were supposed to get together after work
 14 and go out.
 15         Q    And where was that?
 16         A    We were going to the Baja cantina.
 17         Q    Which is located where?
 18         A    In Marina Del Rey.
 19         Q    What exact plans did you have to meet up that
 20 night?
 21         A    Basically, Ron got off work before me, and was
 22 to call me at work, or I was to call him when I got home.
 23              I got home from work that night, was tired.  I
 24 hadn't received a phone call from him as of yet, was going
 25 to wait for the call, or just go ahead and go to bed.
 26         Q    Now, the location of 875 south Bundy, do you
 27 know where that is, sir?
 28         A    Yes, ma'am.
 01         Q    Is that location on the way -- if you leave
 02 the Mezzaluna restaurant, would that location be on the way
 03 to the Baja cantina, or your house?
 04         A    Yes, it would be.
 05         Q    Did you see Ronald Goldman as he left the
 06 restaurant that night?
 07         A    Yes, I did.
 08         Q    Did he say something to you?
 09         A    Said he'd talk to me later.
 10         Q    And when he left, sir, was he still wearing
 11 the waiter's uniform?
 12         A    No, he had taken his tie and vest off, and he
 13 had a white dress shirt, black pants, black shoes.
 14         Q    So, he had that part of the waiter's uniform
 15 on?
 16         A    Correct.
 17         Q    Black shoes, black pants and a white shirt?
 18         A    Yes, ma'am.
 19         Q    Do you recall -- did you know where he lived?
 20         A    I knew that he lived within walking distance
 21 of the restaurant, and that's about it.  I didn't know the
 22 exact location, I knew from the basic direction that he
 23 took, but not the exact address.
 24         Q    So, when he left the bar that night, he said
 25 he'll talk to you later.  Did he leave by the front or the
 26 side exit?
 27         A    The last time I saw him, he was walking
 28 towards the front door.  However, I did not see him leave
 01 through that door.  I did not see him leave through the
 02 side entrance, either.
 03         Q    So, you didn't actually see him leave the
 04 restaurant?
 05         A    Correct.
 06         Q    You just had that last conversation with him?
 07         A    Right.
 08         Q    What time did you get home that night, sir?
 09         A    Somewhere around 11:30.
 10         Q    And did you get any phone calls from Ron?
 11         A    No, ma'am.
 12         MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 13         THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro.
 14         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you very much, your Honor.
 16                      CROSS-EXAMINATION
 18         Q    Mr. Tanner, did you give a statement to the
 19 police regarding incidents relative to your testimony
 20 today?
 21         A    I don't understand the question.
 22         Q    Were you interviewed by anybody from the
 23 police department regarding what you saw on this night?
 24         A    Yes, sir.
 25         Q    Did you give a statement to them?
 26         A    I believe so.
 27         Q    Did they write that down while you were
 28 talking?
 01         A    What they wrote, I don't know.
 02         Q    Were they writing something down while you
 03 were talking?
 04         A    Yes, they were.
 05         Q    Did you ever tell the police that Ron
 06 volunteered to take the glasses to Nicole at her house?
 07         A    Not to my recollection.
 08         Q    May I show you a statement form dated 6-13-94?
 09         A    Sure.
 10         Q    i'd Like you to read this statement form,
 11 please.
 12         A    (WITNESS COMPLIES)
 13              Okay.
 14         Q    Do you recall making the statement to the
 15 police the afternoon after this incident, at about 5:00
 16 o'clock, that Ron volunteered to take the glasses to her
 17 house?
 18         A    This statement is in the report, but Ron never
 19 told me that he had volunteered to take the glasses.
 20         Q    So, the report by the Los Angeles Police
 21 Department, as far as you're concerned, is incorrect?
 22         A    I wouldn't say that it's incorrect, I'd just
 23 say that there were a lot of people speaking at that time,
 24 and that this may have been written down in my name.
 25         Q    If it was written down, it was something that
 26 you didn't say?
 27         A    Quite possibly.
 28         Q    Quite possibly you didn't say it, or quite
 01 possibly you did say it?
 02         A    Quite possibly I didn't say it.
 03         Q    Thank you.
 04         MR. SHAPIRO:  Nothing further, your Honor.
 05         THE COURT:  Miss Clark, anything on redirect?
 06         MS. CLARK:  Yes, thank you.
 08                     REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 10         Q    Mr. Tanner, when the police were interviewing
 11 you on the date of June the 13th, in the -- at about 5:00
 12 o'clock, were they asking you what you knew about the
 13 events that had transpired the night before, in the
 14 restaurant?
 15         A    They did.
 16         Q    And did you, in fact, learn from Karen
 17 Crawford that there were glasses that Ron was going to take
 18 to Nicole brown that night?
 19         MR. SHAPIRO:  Objection, leading and suggestive.
 20         THE COURT:  Sustained.
 21         MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, this goes to counsel's
 22 question as to whether or not he may have made that
 23 statement?  And I don't know how it could be leading at
 24 this point, after counsel has already shown the statement
 25 to the witness.
 26         THE COURT:  The objection is sustained as to the
 27 form of the question.
 01         Q    At the time you spoke to the police, on June
 02 the 13th, had you already spoken to Karen Crawford about
 03 the events that transpired with Ron Goldman and Nicole
 04 brown in the restaurant, on June the 12th?
 05         A    I had spoken to Karen that day.  You have to
 06 understand it's very foggy, that day, and several days that
 07 follow that.
 08              The night that Ronald left, I did not know
 09 that he had a pair of glasses with him to take to Nicole's
 10 house.  I may have found out later, after speaking with
 11 Karen, or I may have just found out from other people.  But
 12 the night that it happened, I did not know that he had
 13 those glasses on his person.
 14         Q    So, what you're telling us is that you did not
 15 know, of your personal observation and knowledge, that he
 16 was taking the glasses to Nicole?
 17         A    That is correct.
 18         Q    But you may have learned that from talking to
 19 people later, the following day?
 20         A    Yes, ma'am.
 21         Q    Then in response to police questioning as to
 22 what you knew about the events that transpired with Ron
 23 Goldman and Nicole brown on June the 12th, could you have
 24 told the police what you knew, without limiting yourself to
 25 what you personally observed?
 26         MR. SHAPIRO:  Objection, your Honor, that calls for
 27 speculation.
 28         THE COURT:  Sustained.
 02         Q    Could you have told that to the police?
 03         MR. SHAPIRO:  Objection, your Honor, that calls for
 04 speculation.
 05         THE COURT:  Sustained.
 06              Do you know whether you said that to the
 07 police, sir?
 08         THE WITNESS:  I don't remember, I really don't.
 10         Q    Either way, yes or no?
 11         A    (WITNESS shakes HEAD)
 12         Q    You might have, you might not have?
 13         A    Exactly.  You know, two people that you knew
 14 are dead.  I mean, what do you remember from that?  You
 15 just know that they're dead that day.
 16         MS. CLARK:  Thank you, sir.
 17         THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, anything further?
 18         MR. SHAPIRO:  No, thank you very much.
 19         THE COURT:  Thank you, sir.  You may step down.  I
 20 do want to remind you, please, do not discuss your
 21 testimony with anyone until you have been completely
 22 excused from this proceeding.  You may, however, after you
 23 have concluded testifying.
 24              Next witness.
 25         MS. CLARK:  People call Pablo Fenjves.
 26         THE COURT:  Face the clerk and raise your right
 27 hand, sir.
 28         THE COURT CLERK:  You do solemnly swear the
 01 testimony you are about to give in the cause now pending
 02 before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
 03 nothing but the truth, so help you God.
 04         THE WITNESS:  I do.
 05 / / /
 06                       PABLE FENJVES,
 09         THE COURT CLERK:  Please be seated.
 10              State and spell your name for the record.
 11         THE WITNESS:  My name is Pablo Fenjves, last name
 12 F-E-N-J-V-E-S.
 13         THE COURT:  I'm going to ask you if you can speak
 14 up a little bit, so everyone can hear you.
 15              Miss Clark.
 16         MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 18                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 20         Q    Sir, directing your attention to the date of
 21 June 12th, 1994.  As of that date, can you tell us what
 22 street you lived on?
 23         A    I lived on 862 Gretna Greenway.
 24         Q    Gretna green way?
 25         A    Uh-huh.
 26         Q    Is that yes?
 27         A    Yes.
 28         Q    Where in relation to 875 south Bundy is that?
 01         A    Bundy is one block east, and we share a common
 02 alley.
 03         Q    what part of your condo faces that alley, that
 04 you share with 875 south Bundy?
 05         A    The master bedroom and the kitchen.
 06         Q    Is that at the front or the rear of your
 07 residence?
 08         A    at the rear of my residence.
 09         Q    How long have you lived there, sir?
 10         A    Two years.
 11         Q    If you look out the back of your bedroom
 12 window, are you able to see any part of the property of 875
 13 south Bundy?
 14         A    Yes.  I'm able to see the whole north side
 15 of 875 north Bundy.
 16         Q    Now, as of the date of June the 12th, 1994,
 17 did you know someone by the name of Nicole brown?
 18         A    No, I did not.
 19         Q    Or where she lived?
 20         A    I did not.
 21         Q    Directing your attention, sir, to the evening
 22 of June the 12th, 1994, sunday night.  can you tell us
 23 where you were in the evening, sir?
 24         A    I was home that evening.
 25         Q    Can You tell us what you were doing
 26 about 10:00 o'clock?
 27         A    I had just turned on the channel 5 news.
 28         Q    Channel 5 news?
 01         A    Yes.
 02         Q    Where were you watching television at that
 03 time?
 04         A    Upstairs in the bedroom, with my wife.
 05         Q    At some point, while you were watching
 06 the 10:00 o'clock news on channel 5, did something distract
 07 you?
 08         A    Yes.  About 15 or 20 minutes into it, I heard
 09 a dog barking, sort of a plaintive wail.
 10         Q    Had dogs barked in that neighborhood before,
 11 sir?
 12         A    Yes, but this was a pretty persistent barking,
 13 it just wouldn't stop.
 14         Q    You described it as a plaintive wail?
 15         A    Yes.
 16         Q    So, it was an unusual sounding bark to you?
 17         A    Right.
 18         Q    That was about 10:15 to 10:20?
 19         A    Yes.
 20         Q    Did the barking stop, or did it continue?
 21         A    Well, about this time, I stopped watching the
 22 news, and went down to my office, and I did a little work.
 23 And I didn't come back upstairs until about 11:00 o'clock.
 24         Q    At the point that you went downstairs to do
 25 some work, was the barking still going on?
 26         A    Yes, it was.
 27         Q    Did you come back up from working at some
 28 point?
 01         A    Yes, I did.  I came back up at around 11:00
 02 o'clock.
 03         Q    Where did you go when you came -- you say you
 04 came back up.  Where did you come back up to?
 05         A    Back up to the master bedroom.
 06         Q    And at 11:00 o'clock, can you tell us whether
 07 you still heard the dog barking?
 08         A    Yes, the dog was still barking.  I remember
 09 going over to the shutters, and taking a look out for
 10 the -- toward Nicole's building.  And I saw some lights on
 11 upstairs but, you know, of course, I couldn't pinpoint, you
 12 know, where exactly the dog was.
 13         Q    So, you were looking out towards where you
 14 heard the sound coming from, of the dog barking?
 15         A    That's correct.
 16         Q    And you looked toward Nicole's house?
 17         A    That is correct.
 18         Q    Did it sound like the same dog that you had
 19 heard barking earlier, at 10:15 or so?
 20         A    Yes, it was definitely the same dog.
 21         Q    I'm sorry?
 22         A    It was definitely the same dog.
 23         Q    at What point did you go to sleep that night,
 24 sir?
 25         A    I don't know.  I went -- I went to bed about,
 26 you know, a little after 11:00, and I read for a while.
 27 And the dog was still barking and, you know, eventually I
 28 turned out the light and went to sleep.
 01         Q    At the point that you went to sleep, was the
 02 dog still barking?
 03         A    As I recall, yes.
 04         MS. CLARK:  Thank you, sir.
 05              I have nothing further.
 06         THE COURT:  Mr. SHAPIRO.
 07         MR. UELMEN:  I'll be conducting the
 08 cross-examination.
 09         THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen.
 11                      CROSS-EXAMINATION
 13         Q    Mr. Fenjves, you watch channel 5 news every
 14 evening?
 15         A    Generally, but sometimes I watch the 11:00
 16 o'clock news.
 17         Q    Is that a one-hour news cast?
 18         A    Well, I don't know.  I usually watch the
 19 first 20 minutes of the news, and then I sort of -- it gets
 20 into areas I'm not that interested in.
 21         Q    I see.  So, you regularly stop watching after
 22 about 20 minutes?
 23         A    About 20, 25 minutes, yeah.
 24         Q    And it was about 20 or 25 minutes, then, into
 25 the news cast that you first heard the dog?
 26         A    No, I think --
 27         MS. CLARK:  Objection.
 28         the witness:  -- It was about 15 or 20 minutes into
 01 the news cast, that I first heard the dog.
 02         THE COURT:  Excuse me for just one moment.
 03              If one of the attorneys does make an
 04 objection, I would ask that you wait for a moment, so the
 05 court can make a ruling.
 06              I assume you're withdrawing your objection?
 07         MS. CLARK:  I am.  Thank you, your Honor.
 09         Q    Did you hear the dog continue to bark as you
 10 were watching the news?
 11         A    Yes, I did.
 12         Q    For about how long?
 13         A    You know, five, seven minutes.  And then I
 14 left.
 15         Q    Now, you did not look out the back of your
 16 condo to view the Simpson residence at that time; is that
 17 correct?
 18         A    At that point, I did not.
 19         Q    You went downstairs, did you say?
 20         A    Yes, two floors down, I have my office.
 21         Q    I see.  Did you continue to hear the dog bark
 22 while you were in your office?
 23         A    Well, at that point I was sort of focused on
 24 my work, so I pretty much ignored the sound, if it was
 25 there.
 26         Q    And I believe you said at about 11:00, you
 27 came back upstairs?
 28         A    That's correct.
 01         Q    And that was the point at which you looked out
 02 the back?
 03         A    Yes, sir.
 04         Q    Did you say you looked out the back through
 05 the blinds?
 06         A    Well, we have wooden shutters, storm shutters.
 07 I opened them up and took a look out.
 08         Q    Did you, at any time, go outside onto the rear
 09 porch, to look at the premises?
 10         A    No, I don't believe I did.
 11         Q    Now, did you give a statement to the Los
 12 Angeles Police Department after this event took place?
 13         A    Yes, the following morning, Monday morning,
 14 they came to my house, and asked me a few questions.
 15         Q    you say this interview took place at your
 16 home?
 17         A    Yes, it did.
 18         Q    Did you tell the officers of the Los Angeles
 19 Police Department, that you went outside on the rear porch,
 20 to look?
 21         A    No, I don't recall telling them that.  I think
 22 they misunderstood what I was telling them at that point.
 23         Q    Have you had an opportunity to look at the
 24 statement that they prepared?
 25         A    No, I haven't.
 26         MR. UELMEN:  May I approach?
 27         THE COURT:  Yes.
 28         THE WITNESS:  no, I think this -- there's a few
 01 mistakes.
 03         Q    There's a few mistakes there?
 04         A    Just a minor mistake, regarding the Jeep.
 05         Q    Okay.  Are you saying you did not tell the
 06 officers that you went out onto the porch to look?
 07         A    I did not go out on the porch to look, no,
 08 sir.  And I do not recall telling the officers that I went
 09 out on the porch.  I said I looked out through the porch,
 10 you know, opened the shutters.  There's a porch beyond the
 11 porch.
 12         Q    Now, when you looked through the shutters, did
 13 you observe a Jeep parked in the driveway?
 14         A    No, I think they misunderstood that.  Because
 15 they asked me to take a look at the house from my house.
 16              And we went outside, and I said, "there," you
 17 know, "the Jeep was parked there a few days ago."
 18         Q    I see.  So, you did not tell the officers that
 19 on the evening of this occurrence, you observed the Jeep
 20 parked in the driveway?
 21         A    No, sir, I did not.
 22         Q    Now, you indicate you went to bed at
 23 about 11:30?
 28 \ \
 01      Q    Now you indicate you went to bed at about
 02 11:30?
 03      A    I went to bed a little after 11:00.
 04      Q    All right.
 05      A    And I read for awhile.
 06      Q    And the dog continued to bark?
 07      A    Yes, sir.
 08      Q    How long did that barking continue?
 09      A    Until I fell asleep, which may have been
 10 11:30, 11:40.
 11      Q    So the dog may have continued barking for even
 12 later than that?
 13      A    That's correct.
 14      Q    Now, is it unusual for a dog to bark that long
 15 in the neighborhood?
 16      A    Yes, sir.   You seldom hear -- I mean, you
 17 occasionally will hear a dog barking, but certainly not
 18 at that length and at that pitch.
 19      Q    And did you at any time contemplate going out
 20 to see where the dog was or whether anything was wrong?
 21      A    No, I did not.
 22      Q    Why not?
 23      A    Well, it was a couple of hundred yards away,
 24 and I assumed that, you know, one of the neighbors -- it
 25 would probably be three times louder and they would be
 26 able to pinpoint the exact location.
 27            I'd have to say, you know, I was near Dorothy
 28 and Bundy and that was the area that the barking was
 01 coming from.
 02      Q    Thank you.
 03      MR. UELMEN:  Nothing further.
 04      THE COURT:  Ms. Clark.
 05      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor, no redirect.
 06      THE COURT:  Thank you very much, sir.
 07      THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
 08      THE COURT:  You are free to leave.
 09            I do want to remind you that until you have
 10 been completely excused from this matter, you are not to
 11 discuss your testimony with anyone except the lawyers in
 12 this matter.
 13      THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.
 14      MS. CLARK:  People call Mr. Steven Schwab.
 15           Your Honor, I believe this witness is a few
 16 minutes away.   The court had earlier indicated it
 17 wanted to take a break at some point in the morning.
 18      THE COURT:  Of course we got started sort of late,
 19 but this is a little bit early, but we could take the
 20 15 minutes now.
 21           Will you have witnesses sufficient if I did
 22 that so that we could go until 12:00?
 23      MS. CLARK:  I believe so.
 24      THE COURT:  All right.
 25           Then we'll take a 15 minute recess, or
 26 actually probably a little bit more than 15 minutes,
 27 until 10:15.
 28           I remind you that I do intend to start at that
 01 time, so please be back and ready to proceed.
 02      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 05   (At 10:00 a.m., a recess was taken until 10:20 a.m.)
 08      THE COURT:  All right.
 09            We're again on the record in the case of
 10 People versus Simpson.
 11            The defendant is present with counsel, the
 12 people are represented.
 13           Call your next witness, please.
 14      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 15           The people call Mr. Steven Schwab.
 16      THE COURT:  Face the clerk and raise your right
 17 hand.
 18      THE CLERK:  You do solemnly swear the testimony you
 19 may give in the cause now pending before this court
 20 shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
 21 truth, so help you God?
 22      THE WITNESS:  I swear.
 24                      STEVEN SCHWAB,
 25 called as a witness by and on behalf of the People,
 26 having been duly sworn, was examined and testified as
 27 follows:
 28      THE CLERK:  Please be seated.
 01      THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
 02      THE CLERK:  State and spell your name for the
 03 record.
 04      THE WITNESS:  My name is Steven SCHWAB.
 05 S-t-e-v-e-n, s-c-h-w-a-b.
 06      THE COURT:  You may inquire.
 07      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 09                    DIRECT EXAMINATION
 12      Q    Good MORNING, Mr. Schwab.
 13      A    Good morning.
 14      Q    Directing your attention, sir, to the date of
 15 June the 12th, 1994, Sunday.
 16            As of that date, sir, can you tell us where
 17 you lived?
 18      A    I lived -- I live on Montana Avenue.
 19           Do you want me to give the exact address?
 20      Q    No, sir, you don't --
 21      A    Thank you.
 22      Q    Was that on Montana near Bundy?
 23      A    Yes.  That's east on Montana near Bundy and
 24 San Vicente.
 25      Q    How far from the intersection of Bundy and
 26 San Vicente did you live on that day?
 27      A    It's about half a block.
 28      Q    Do you own any pets, sir?
 01      A    Yes.   I have two pets.   I own a dog and a
 02 cat.
 03      Q    Do you ever walk the dog in that neighborhood?
 04      A    Yes.  I walk the dog in that neighborhood in
 05 the morning and at night.
 06      Q    With regard to at night, is that a habit that
 07 you have, sir, of doing that every night?
 08      A    Yes.   I walk the dog every night after
 09 watching television.
 10      Q    Is there a particular time that you always
 11 walk the dog at night?
 12      A    There -- it varies from day to day because of
 13 different shows that are on.   Generally during the week
 14 I walk it at different hours than on the weekends.
 15      Q    During the week, what time do you usually walk
 16 your dog at night?
 17      A    I usually leave the house at 11:30.   That's
 18 during the week.   I generally watch the Dick Van Dyke
 19 show and then walk my dog, and during the week that's on
 20 between 11:00 and 11:30.
 21      Q    And on Sunday nights?
 22      A    Well, the Dick Van Dyke show is also on but,
 23 it's on an hour earlier.   I -- so I watch the Dick
 24 Van Dyke show -- on Sunday evening I watch it between
 25 10:00 and 10:30, and then I go to walk my dog.
 26      Q    Now, June the 12th was a Sunday, sir?
 27      A    Yes, it was.
 28      Q    Did you watch the Dick Van Dyke show that
 01 night?
 02      A    Yes, I did.
 03      Q    And that was at what time that you watched
 04 that show?
 05      A    I watched that show between 10:00 and 10:30.
 06      Q    Did you watch the entire show, sir?
 07      A    Yes, I did.
 08      Q    And what time did that show end?
 09      A    That ends just prior to 10:30.
 10      Q    Did you walk the dog that night after you
 11 watched the show?
 12      A    Yes.   As soon as the show was over I got my
 13 dog, put her leash on and took her for a walk.
 14      Q    On the night of June the 12th, that Sunday
 15 night, about what time did you leave your apartment to
 16 walk your dog?
 17      A    Shortly after 10:30.   Between 10:30 and
 18 10:35.   It was closer to 10:30.
 19      Q    Can you tell us what route you took when you
 20 walked her?
 21      A    Yes.   I walked down Montana and I continued
 22 along Montana across the street at the intersection of
 23 Montana and Bundy, and continued along Montana until I
 24 got to a street called Gretna Green.
 25           At Gretna Green I made a left and walked up
 26 one block, made a right on a street called Gorham.   I
 27 then walked down one block, made a left on Amherst,
 28 walked up one block to Amherst and Dorothy, made a left
 01 at Amherst and Dorothy and continued along Dorothy until
 02 I came to Bundy.
 03      Q    Now, if you can tell us, you walked along
 04 Montana past Bundy?
 05      A    Yes.
 06      Q    And you went left on Gretna Green?
 07      A    Yes.
 08      Q    How long did it take you to get to Gretna
 09 Green?
 10      A    Well, I looked at my watch when I turned to go
 11 down Gretna Green, and that was 10:37.   I remember that
 12 my dog had taken care of its business and I was deciding
 13 whether to return home or continue walking.   It was a
 14 nice night, so I decided to continue walking.
 15      Q    So what time was it about when you got to
 16 Gretna Green?
 17      A    10:37.
 18      Q    10:37.   You know that exactly?
 19      A    Well, between 10:35 and 10:40.   I was just
 20 not exact because I don't have a digital watch.   But it
 21 was between 10:35 and 10:40.
 22      Q    Were you wearing a watch at all?
 23      A    Yes, I was wearing a watch.
 24      Q    A regular watch, not the digital kind?
 25      A    Not the digital.   In fact, I'm wearing it
 26 now.   It's a regular watch.
 27      Q    Can you tell -- can you show us what kind of
 28 watch that is?
 01      A    Sure.   It's a regular watch.   It doesn't
 02 have numbers on the face.   It's not a digital watch.
 03      MS. CLARK:  For the record, the witness is
 04 indicating a watch that has dots where the hours would
 05 be.
 06      THE COURT:  All right.
 07      MS. CLARK:  An analog watch.
 09      Q    So at what -- at what street did you decide to
 10 turn around and go home?
 11      A    Well, that was when I came to Amherst and
 12 Dorothy.   At Amherst and Dorothy I made a left, which
 13 would take me back home.
 14           I use this route -- this takes me generally
 15 half an hour to do because I get home and then another
 16 show begins at 11:00 o'clock or 11:30, so that's the
 17 route I use.
 18      Q    So you turned around at Amherst and Dorothy
 19 and decided to go back home.
 20      A    Correct.
 21      Q    What happened next?
 22      A    Well, I was walking -- I was walking down
 23 Dorothy, and as I approached the corner of Dorothy and
 24 Bundy, I saw that there was a dog at the corner.   It
 25 was a large Akita, very white, and as I approached
 26 further I saw that it wasn't with anyone.   There was no
 27 one walking the dog.   The dog was just there.
 28           And the dog -- it was unusual for a dog to
 01 just be wandering the neighborhood by itself, and the
 02 dog seemed agitated.   It was barking at the house on
 03 the corner.
 04      Q    On the corner of what?
 05      A    On the corner of Dorothy and Bundy.   There is
 06 a house on the corner that has the driveway that -- a
 07 path to the door that comes right to the corner, and it
 08 was looking down that path and barking.
 09            It was very unusual for a dog to be barking
 10 at a house that way, but that's what it was doing
 11 and  --
 12      Q    Can you describe the way the dog looked?
 13      A    Yes.   It was a white Akita, beautiful dog.
 14 It had a collar on, what looked like a very expensive
 15 embroidered collar, red and blue.
 16           It smelled my dog and my dog smelled it, and
 17 as I looked at  -- I checked the collar to see if there
 18 was an address or tag on there, but there wasn't, so I
 19 didn't know where the dog was from.
 20            And as I examined the dog further, I noticed
 21 that there was blood on the paws.
 22      Q    Blood on all four paws?
 23      A    There seemed to be blood on all of the paws in
 24 different amounts.   There was more on some than on
 25 others, but there was Blood on the paws.   I
 26 especially -- I noticed some blood on one of the back
 27 paws.   That's the one that I noticed first.
 28      Q    Now, what time was it when you first saw that
 01 dog?
 02      A    Well, I didn't look at my watch at the moment
 03 that this occurred, but based on the path and how long
 04 it generally takes me, I would say that that was
 05 approximately 10:55.
 06      Q    And that was at the corner of Dorothy and
 07 Bundy?
 08      A    Yes, it was.
 09      Q    Did the dog wear a leash?
 10      A    No, there was no leash.   There was just the
 11 collar.
 12      Q    The blood that you saw on the dog's paws, did
 13 it appear to be wet, fresh or dry?
 14      A    I didn't -- I didn't touch the blood so I
 15 don't really know.   The dog was also dirty and there
 16 seemed to be mud on the dog.   But I -- I didn't get any
 17 like blood on my hands or anything like that, so I don't
 18 know whether it was wet or dry.
 19      Q    After your dogs -- those two dogs met each
 20 other --
 21      A    Yeah.
 22      Q    -- What happened next?
 23      A    Well, my dog doesn't like other dogs very
 24 much.   They barked at each other for a little bit,
 25 and I noticed by that time that no one had come.   There
 26 wasn't like a block or two behind or in front of its
 27 owner or anything, so I crossed the street at that
 28 point.
 01           I crossed the street from one side of Bundy to
 02 the other, and the dog stayed with us.   The dog
 03 followed us.   And so knowing that this was a lost dog,
 04 I allowed it to stay with us and I continued -- I made a
 05 left at that point on Bundy, heading back towards my
 06 house.
 07      Q    During the time that the dog walked with you,
 08 did it continue to bark?
 09      A    Yes.  It was very strange.   It would bark at
 10 each house as we passed.  It would bark -- when we got
 11 to the entrance to the house or the path leading to the
 12 door of the houses, it would bark at the houses.
 13            I had never seen anything like that before.
 14 But it would stop at each house and bark.
 15      Q    So as you walked down the sidewalk, you had
 16 your dog, the other one was following you?
 17      A    Yes.
 18      Q    And every time you got to a place where a path
 19 leading up to a residence met the sidewalk, the dog
 20 would stop, look at the house and bark?
 21      A    Yes, absolutely.   But the dog also didn't
 22 want to get very far from myself and my dog.   It stayed
 23 very close to us.
 24      Q    Where did you go?
 25      A    Well, I continued to walk down Bundy, and at
 26 that point a police car came, going in the other
 27 direction.
 28           And so I flagged the police car down to tell
 01 him that I had found this dog, and I did -- I told the
 02 officer that I had found this dog, it's obviously lost,
 03 and maybe he could, you know, call someone and find out
 04 if anyone has reported a missing dog.   He said he would
 05 take care of it.
 06           And so I continued on, but the dog continued
 07 to follow me.   And it followed me down Bundy past
 08 Gorham again and then all the way to Montana.
 09           So I turned the corner on Montana, made a
 10 right on Montana heading home, and the cop pulled into a
 11 driveway on Montana and we spoke again, because
 12 obviously the dog wasn't going to leave my side.
 13           So at that point I gave him my address and
 14 phone number and said that I would take the dog home and
 15 that he would call the animal control people and that
 16 they would contact me with regard to the dog.
 17           So I left the police officer at that time,
 18 continued home, and the dog followed me into the
 19 courtyard of my building, which has a pool, and up the
 20 stairs, I live on the second floor, up the stairs to my
 21 apartment.
 22           I mean, it stayed right with me.   At that --
 23      Q    I'm sorry, go ahead.
 24      A    At that point I went into the house, leaving
 25 the dog outside because my wife was inside, and I also
 26 have a cat, and I didn't want to -- I didn't want to
 27 freak either of them out.
 28           So I closed the door and told my wife that
 01 this big Akita had followed me home.
 02      Q    On the entire walk home, did the dog continue
 03 to bark?
 04      A    It barked periodically, absolutely.   I
 05 remember also it barked at the corner of Gorham and
 06 Bundy.   It barked again.
 07           It didn't -- it went through a phase in which
 08 it did bark, and then as I continued to walk up Bundy it
 09 stopped and caught up with us again.
 10      Q    Do you recall what time you got home?
 11      A    Yeah.   I got home -- I got home at 11:05.   I
 12 remember 'cause Mary Tyler Moore was on at that time.
 13 It was the beginning of the show.
 14           I watch a lot of T.V.
 15      Q    So when you got home, what did you do?
 16      A    I told my wife that this big Akita had
 17 followed me home.   We had helped stray dogs get home in
 18 the past because being dog owners ourselves, we're very
 19 sensitive to when a dog is separated from its owner.
 20           So I told her that and I also told her about
 21 the police officer and the animal control people.   I
 22 showed her the dog.   I opened the door and she saw the
 23 dog.
 24           Again, we didn't let it into the house because
 25 we didn't want to freak out our cat by bringing this big
 26 dog in.
 27           And I got a spare leash from the closet.   I
 28 have a couple of extras for my own dog, and I put the
 01 spare leash on the collar of the dog and walked out to
 02 the front of the building to see if the animal control
 03 people had arrived yet.
 04      Q    So did you go downstairs or --
 05      A    Yes.   I went back downstairs and back out to
 06 the front of the building and --
 07      Q    Were you then standing outside with the dog on
 08 the leash you put on it in front of the building?
 09      A    I sat outside in front of the building with
 10 the leash, with the dog on the leash, and sat at the
 11 front steps and waited to see if somebody would arrive
 12 from animal control.
 13      Q    Did anyone arrive from animal control?
 14      A    No one arrived from animal control.
 15      Q    So what did you do?
 16      A    My wife came outside, and we decided to try to
 17 walk the dog back to where I had found it to see if
 18 maybe the owner was there or if that was close to where
 19 the dog had come from, and I tried to walk the dog up
 20 Montana towards Bundy, but the dog didn't want to go.
 21           So when the dog pulled back in the other
 22 direction, I had noticed -- I noticed at that point that
 23 the dog was very dehydrated, it was panting, so I
 24 decided to bring the dog back to our courtyard and give
 25 it some water because it obviously needed water.
 26      Q    So when you tried to walk it back to the
 27 location of Bundy, it pulled back away from you?
 28      A    It pulled back away from the corner of Bundy
 01 and Montana.   It pulled back on Montana, back towards
 02 where I live.
 03      Q    So at that point you took it back and gave it
 04 water?
 05      A    Yes.  I brought the dog back to the courtyard.
 06 I left my wife with the dog and went upstairs and got my
 07 own dog's bowl, filled it with water, brought it back
 08 downstairs, and gave the dog water.   It drank quite a
 09 bit of water and that seemed to settle it down quite a
 10 bit.
 11      Q    Now, you said the dog seemed to be dehydrated.
 12      A    Yes.
 13      Q    What about the dog made you think that?
 14      A    It was panting.   It was panting continuously.
 15      Q    Was it hot that night?
 16      A    It wasn't especially hot that night.   It was
 17 a nice night.
 18      Q    Would you say it was a cool night?
 19      A    Generally speaking, I would say it was a cool
 20 night.
 21      Q    But the dog was panting.
 22      A    The dog was panting and, you know, my wife
 23 said, "why won't it go, why won't it go where you're
 24 taking it?"   I said, "I don't know.   I can see the dog
 25 is dehydrated."
 26           I think the best thing to do at this point was
 27 to give it some water because, again, I didn't know at
 28 that point how long the dog had been lost.   It could
 01 have been weeks for all I know that the dog had been
 02 wandering and just managed to arrive in this
 03 neighborhood.   So I decided to bring it back to my
 04 apartment and give it some water.
 05      Q    When you first saw the dog and when you were
 06 walking with the dog on the street, was it well lit
 07 where you saw the dog?
 08      A    No, it was not well lit.   It's a very dark
 09 corner.
 10      Q    When you brought the dog back home and you
 11 were downstairs with the dog, was there more light?
 12      A    Yeah, there was more light.
 13      Q    Were you able to observe the dog then more
 14 closely, to look at its body, its legs?
 15      A    I saw the dog more closely at that point.
 16      Q    And what did you notice, if anything, more
 17 about the dog?
 18      A    Well, I noticed again that it was dirty and
 19 that there was blood on the paws.
 20      Q    Did you notice --
 21      A    At that point I would say that the blood was
 22 dried.
 23      Q    Did you notice whether there was any blood on
 24 the legs of the dog?
 25      A    There is -- the underside of the dog was dirty
 26 and again, I noticed the blood on the paws but I didn't
 27 think that much about him.
 28           My dog has come home with a bloody paw
 01 sometimes from stepping on glass or a fight with another
 02 dog, so I didn't think that much about it, especially
 03 being it was a lost dog, I had no idea what it had been
 04 through at that point.
 05      Q    So the blood on the paws didn't strike you as
 06 something to worry about because you thought it might
 07 have stepped on glass?
 08      A    Yeah, except that further I noticed that the
 09 dog wasn't hurt in any way.   Despite that, there was no
 10 injury that I could see to the dog.   The dog wasn't cut
 11 on the paws.
 12           But I didn't think much more about
 13 it.   Again, because it could have happened -- it would
 14 have happened much earlier.
 15      Q    So you didn't see any obvious cuts on the dog
 16 to cause that blood?
 17      A    There were no cuts on the dog at that point.
 18 It itself was not bleeding at that point in any way.
 19      Q    And did you see any blood anywhere other than
 20 the paws on the dog?
 21      A    Well, again, the dog seemed dirty,
 22 especially the underside of the dog, the chest of the
 23 dog.
 24           I don't know myself whether that was blood or
 25 mud or dirt, but it was -- the underside of the dog was
 26 dirty.
 27      Q    And the legs?
 28      A    And the legs.
 01           Again, I noticed the blood and I don't
 02 remember noticing any mud particularly on the legs.   I
 03 noticed the blood.
 04      Q    Blood on the legs?
 05      A    Yeah.
 06      Q    Did you ever hear from animal control?
 07      A    Well, after I'd given the dog the water, I
 08 went upstairs and saw that the light on my telephone
 09 answering machine was blinking.   Actually, that was
 10 when I went up to get the water for the dog, I noticed
 11 the light on my answering machine was blinking, but I
 12 didn't stop to listen to the message at that point.
 13           And that was just -- that would have been
 14 about between 11:25 and 11:30.
 15           Again, my T.V. was still on and it was the end
 16 of the Mary Tyler Moore show, and I noticed that the
 17 light was blinking.   I came down with the water, gave
 18 the water to the dog, and told my wife about the -- that
 19 our answering machine was blinking, that we had a
 20 message.
 21           So she went upstairs and listened to the
 22 message and the message said that the animal control
 23 people couldn't come by that night.   If we wanted to
 24 bring the dog by ourselves they would take it, but that
 25 they were closing at 12:00 o'clock.  And so if we didn't
 26 do this quickly, they were going to close for the
 27 night.
 28      Q    Okay.   On learning that, what did you do?
 01      A    Well, my wife and I discussed what to do.
 02 This upset my wife because it seemed very insensitive
 03 that they were just going to close up for the night.
 04           Also the fact that we bring it there at
 05 12:00 o'clock and then the person who's there goes home
 06 and there's no one, you know, with the dogs all night.
 07           So I went back upstairs to call the people and
 08 I spoke to a man on the phone, and he assured me that he
 09 was the only one there so therefore he could not come by
 10 to pick up the dog.
 11           But he told me the location of the -- of
 12 animal control, which is on Bundy and Missouri, and he
 13 said that if I brought the dog by myself by
 14 12:00 o'clock, that they would take it; if not, that
 15 they would be gone for the night.
 16      Q    What happened next?
 17      A    I told them I'd see what we could do and I
 18 went downstairs and I told my wife about that, that the
 19 person was going home at midnight and that -- but they
 20 weren't going to come by and pick the dog up on their
 21 own, so that we would have to bring the dog in
 22 ourselves.
 23           And we didn't like that very much 'cause we
 24 wanted to help the dog find its way home, and we didn't
 25 know what the animal control people would do after they
 26 got the dog under the circumstances.   And also because
 27 it was now approximately like 11:30, we had only half an
 28 hour to get the dog to the animal control people.
 01           So we discussed various options, one of which
 02 would be for me to again try to walk the dog to where I
 03 found it and my wife to come in the -- follow me in the
 04 car, so in case we couldn't find anyone we still would
 05 have the option to put the dog into our car and take it
 06 to the shelter.
 07           But I didn't like that option very much 'cause
 08 the dog was not, you know, easily controlled.  Obviously
 09 because it wouldn't necessarily walk where I wanted to
 10 take it, I didn't know if it would get in the car at
 11 all.
 12           And again, it was still dirty.   I didn't
 13 necessarily want to, you know, bring it into my car like
 14 that.
 15           So we were discussing the various options, but
 16 we pretty much decided not to take the dog to the animal
 17 control people at midnight.
 18           At that point when we were discussing the
 19 various options my neighbors came home and --
 20      Q    Can you tell us what their names were?
 21      A    Yes.   His name is Sukru and her name is
 22 Bettina.
 23      Q    What time was it when you saw them?
 24      A    That would have been around 11:40.
 25      Q    At the time that they came into the apartment
 26 building, were you outside still?
 27      A    Yes.   We were out in the courtyard and we
 28 were discussing whether it would be okay if maybe we
 01 could tie the dog up in the courtyard overnight because
 02 my plan was to tie the dog up or keep the dog with us
 03 overnight and then print up some posters on my computer,
 04 go back to the location and put up some lost dog signs
 05 and try to find the owner.
 06      Q    So you were outside in the courtyard with your
 07 wife and the dog?
 08      A    Yes.
 09      Q    When Sukru and Bettina came up?
 10      A    That's correct.
 11           And Sukru and Bettina take care of my dog when
 12 I'm out of town.   When we're on vacation or out of town
 13 for a few days, they take care of my animals.
 14           So at that point Sukru offered to take care of
 15 the dog overnight and to leave it out in the courtyard
 16 in the morning so in the morning I could deal with
 17 trying to find the owner once again.
 18      Q    And at that point did you give him the dog?
 19      A    I gave him the dog and I said, "fine."   At
 20 that point he took -- the leash that I had put on the
 21 dog was still on the dog.   He took the dog for a walk.
 22 My wife and I spoke to his wife Bettina for a few more
 23 minutes and then went to bed.
 24      Q    And did you see the dog again after that?
 25      A    I have not seen the dog again since then.
 26 That was the last that I saw of the dog.
 27      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.  I have nothing further.
 28      THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen.
 01      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you.
 03                    CROSS-EXAMINATION
 06      Q    Now, Mr. Schwab, when you first encountered
 07 the Akita --
 08      A    Yes.
 09      Q    -- was it standing in one place barking at one
 10 house?
 11      A    It was -- it was standing -- first it noticed
 12 myself and my dog, and as dogs do, they sniff one
 13 another.   And my dog growled at it, and then the dog
 14 turned and looked up that path leading to the corner
 15 house and started barking at the house.
 16      Q    Okay.   Was the dog ever running from house to
 17 house?
 18      A    I didn't -- no.    The dog, while I was with
 19 the dog, didn't run but walked, again, trying very hard
 20 to stay very close to myself and my dog, but stopping at
 21 each individual house and barking.
 22           There was also -- when the two dogs first met,
 23 there was a little bit of barking between them because
 24 my dog is aggressive that way and initially growled at
 25 the dog.
 26      Q    I see.
 27           So the dog was simply standing in one place
 28 barking when you first encountered it?
 01      A    It was not barking when I first encountered
 02 it.   It was simply standing at the corner and I
 03 approached it with my dog.   The dogs smelled each
 04 other, growled and barked a little bit between them.
 05           Then the dog, while I was still standing
 06 there, turned, looked down the path and barked at the
 07 house.
 08      Q    I understand.
 09           And then the dog began to follow you?
 10      A    Well, I waited at the corner for a few minutes
 11 to see if an owner would show up, maybe the owner was a
 12 block or so behind the dog, but no one came.
 13           So I crossed the street from one side of Bundy
 14 to the other to see -- basically to see what the dog
 15 would do.   Maybe the dog would turn around and go in
 16 the direction of its home and I could then follow the
 17 dog back to where it came from.
 18           But the dog didn't do that.   The dog followed
 19 myself and my dog across the street.
 20      Q    Okay.   Now, is Bundy a busy street at that
 21 time of night?
 22      A    Not especially busy, no, not at that hour.
 23 During the day it's always busy, but at night it's
 24 relatively -- it's a quiet neighborhood at night.
 25      Q    Did you see any cars coming by?
 26      A    I saw the police car that I mentioned that I
 27 flagged down.   I don't recall seeing other cars.
 28           I'm not saying that there were no other cars
 01 that passed that night, but I don't recall, you know,
 02 definitely that I saw a particular car.
 03      Q    Okay.   Now, with respect to this police car,
 04 what direction was it going?
 05      A    The police car, it was coming down Bundy and
 06 it was on the other side of Bundy that I flagged it
 07 down.   Therefore, it was coming from the direction of
 08 Montana.
 09           It was on -- at that point I had crossed the
 10 street already and it was on the other side of the
 11 street, so it was coming down Montana.
 12      THE COURT:  Excuse me.  Just one moment.
 14      Q    Down south?
 15      A    Down Montana.
 16      THE COURT:  I'm sorry.
 17           All right.   I'm going to have to interrupt
 18 for just a few minutes.
 20          (There was a pause in the proceedings
 21              from 10:45 a.m. to 10:55 a.m.)
 23      THE COURT:  All right.   I do want to apologize to
 24 you for the interruption.
 25           Judge Mills, who is the supervising judge of
 26 the Superior Court, did request that I interrupt the
 27 proceedings to speak with him, and for the purpose of
 28 making this announcement.
 01           There was a Court order that was made by the
 02 Superior Court, and I'm going to read it to you as
 03 follows:
 04             "Minute order:  The court has read and
 05      considered the ex parte application for
 06      emergency meeting between supervising judge
 07      Lance Ito and defense counsel, and heard the
 08      argument of Robert Shapiro and Gerald Uelmen
 09      in camera.
 10             "The court hereby appoints judge
 11      Delbert Wong as a special master on behalf of
 12      the court.   Judge Wong is directed to
 13      accompany counsel for the defendant to recover
 14      certain items of real evidence, to place any
 15      such real evidence under seal, and return any
 16      said items to this court forthwith.
 17          "The clerk of the court is directed to
 18      take the items submitted by Judge Wong into
 19      the custody of the court pending further order
 20      of this court.
 21             "The case file shall be sealed pending
 22      further order of this court."
 23           It was the determination that the Superior
 24 Court, in essence, didn't really have the jurisdiction
 25 to handle this particular matter since this case was not
 26 in the Superior Court.   It's here in the Municipal
 27 Court.
 28           Nonetheless, judge Delbert Wong was appointed
 01 as the special master and as the special master, he did
 02 recover apparently some items of evidence related to
 03 this matter.
 04           They are in the envelope -- whatever it is is
 05 in the envelope here that I'm holding in my hand.
 06           At this time I'm going to deliver this to the
 07 clerk, and the clerk of the court will maintain
 08 possession and control of this until the appropriate
 09 time in these proceedings when that envelope will be
 10 opened and we'll be able to determine what, in fact, is
 11 inside it.
 12           I do not know what is in the envelope.   I do
 13 know, however, that Judge Wong does have a report, a
 14 written report, of some kind in addition to whatever
 15 physical evidence is in that envelope therein, and we
 16 will examine that in due course.
 17           At this point in time I suggest that we
 18 continue with the examination of the witness.
 19      MS. CLARK:  Excuse me, Your Honor, but may I
 20 inquire?   This is the first I've learned of this
 21 because it was an ex parte application.
 22           Is the court aware of where the evidence
 23 originated from?
 24      THE COURT:  I do not know anything about it.
 25      MS. CLARK:  And does the court have any inclination
 26 to indicate at what point we'll be able to view that
 27 evidence?
 28      THE COURT:  I would think that item of evidence
 01 could be opened as a part of the court record in the
 02 proceedings in this matter.   I think that we should at
 03 least conclude the testimony of the witness that we have
 04 on the stand at this point before we do that.
 05      MS. CLARK:  Thank you very much, Your Honor.
 06      THE COURT:  All right.
 10 By MR. UELMEN:
 11      Q    Mr. Schwab, we were discussing the police car
 12 that you encountered on Bundy.
 13      A    Yes.
 14      Q    Just so we have our bearings, Bundy runs north
 15 and south, doesn't it?
 16      A    Yes.   That's basically correct.
 17      Q    All right.
 18           And at this time you were walking north on
 19 Bundy, going from Dorothy up to Montana?
 20      A    That's correct.
 21      Q    Okay.   And are you familiar now with where
 22 the scene of the homicide was at 875 south Bundy?
 23      A    Yes.
 24      Q    That's between Dorothy and Montana; isn't that
 25 correct?
 26      A    That's between Dorothy and Gorham.
 27      Q    Dorothy and Gorham.
 28           And Gorham is between Dorothy and Montana?
 01      A    That's correct.
 02      Q    So you would have walked right past it on the
 03 opposite side of the street.
 04      A    I was on the opposite side of the street.   As
 05 I said, the dog crossed the street with myself and my
 06 dog, so at that point I was on the opposite side of the
 07 street.
 08      Q    All right.
 09           And do you recall approximately where you were
 10 when you first saw the police car?
 11      A    That was before Gorham, so that was between
 12 Dorothy and Gorham that I first saw the police officer
 13 and called out to him.
 14      Q    Now, thinking back to where you were --
 15      A    Um-hum.
 16      Q    -- Can you tell us where that was in
 17 relationship to the scene of these homicides?
 18      A    Well, I -- I don't know the exact scene of the
 19 homicide, not having really been there or seen anything
 20 connected with that, so I don't know the exact spot or
 21 anything like that.
 22           I know it was on the other side of the
 23 street.   I was approaching Gorham, I wasn't at Gorham
 24 yet, and the police officer was on the other side of the
 25 street.
 26      Q    All right.
 27           And was the police officer moving or was the
 28 car parked there or what?
 01      A    No.   The police officer was moving until I
 02 stopped him.
 03      Q    All right.
 04           You flagged him down?
 05      A    Yes, I did.
 06      Q    Then he pulled a U-turn?
 07      A    I spoke to him from that other side of
 08 Bundy.   He was on -- he was on the other side of the
 09 street and I spoke to him.   And since he was on the
 10 driver's side, you know, I was able to communicate with
 11 him that way.
 12           I assume that he made a U-turn because he
 13 ended up following me and the dog to Montana, but I --
 14 so I assume that that's what happened.
 15      Q    So the U-turn would have been after you spoke
 16 to him.   Initially you spoke to him while he was just
 17 stopped in the middle of the street.
 18      A    Initially I spoke to him -- again, I don't
 19 know if he made a U-turn or he pulled into a driveway or
 20 what.
 21      Q    But you spoke to him and then he turned and
 22 proceeded in the opposite direction.
 23      A    Yes.   I continued -- I actually crossed -- I
 24 crossed the street again -- Bundy winds around, and I
 25 continued in a straight line back to Montana and Bundy.
 26      Q    Okay.  And this was a normal black and white
 27 patrol car?
 28      A    Yes.
 01      Q    L.A.P.D.?
 02      A    Yes.
 03      Q    Was the officer in uniform?
 04      A    Yes.
 05      Q    And it was a male officer?
 06      A    Yes, it was.
 07      Q    And you don't remember his name, do you?
 08      A    I never found out his name.   He was a young
 09 black officer.   I don't know his name.
 10      Q    All right.
 11           And the officer, at some point, told you that
 12 he would contact animal control?
 13      A    Yes.   At that point he told me that he would
 14 contact animal control.   So I assumed that he would
 15 then follow the dog and see where the dog led, and if
 16 necessary take the dog.
 17           But as I said, the dog continued to follow
 18 us.   It wouldn't leave my side at that point.
 19      Q    Did he take your name?
 20      A    Not at that point.   Initially he didn't.
 21           After following -- again, it ended up being
 22 kind of a procession with myself and my dog and followed
 23 by the Akita and followed by the officer, and this led
 24 all the way back to Bundy and Montana.
 25           I turned right on Montana to head home with
 26 the dog still following me.   He pulled into a driveway
 27 near my house and we spoke again, and at that time I
 28 gave him my address -- my name also, address and phone
 01 number.   And we agreed that I would continue to hold
 02 onto the dog since that seemed to be what the dog wanted
 03 to do, and he would take care of contacting animal
 04 control.
 05      Q    Did he observe the dog at that point?
 06      A    I don't know.
 07      Q    Did you make any mention to him of the blood
 08 on the dog's legs or paws?
 09      A    I just mentioned that the dog appeared to be
 10 lost.   I didn't make any mention of blood or anything
 11 like that at that time.
 12      Q    Now, you indicate you got home then about
 13 11:05?
 14      A    That's correct.
 15      Q    Had the dog, the Akita dog, stopped barking by
 16 that time?
 17      A    Yeah.   The dog seemed to have calmed down
 18 considerably by that time.   It again followed me right
 19 up the stairs, right to my front door.
 20      Q    All right.
 21           And then you indicated at what time, about
 22 11:30, 11:40, you turned the dog over to your neighbor
 23 Sukru?
 24      A    Yes, it was around 11 -- around 11:40.
 25      Q    11:40?
 26      A    Yeah.   That's approximately the time, as best
 27 as I can recall.
 28      Q    Now, you indicated Mr. Sukru at that time --
 01      A    Sukru is his first name.
 02      Q    What is his last name?
 03      A    I don't know his last name.
 04      Q    Okay.   We'll refer to him as Sukru, then.
 05           Did he leave immediately to take the dog for a
 06 walk?
 07      A    Not immediately, because we discussed what to
 08 do.   He was concerned about going to work the next day
 09 and what to do about the dog, and so we discussed
 10 various options because we still could have tried to
 11 take the dog back to animal control at that point.   But
 12 he's a very responsible person.   I knew the dog would
 13 be in good hands.
 14           So we discussed what to do, and what we
 15 decided at that point was that he would hold onto the
 16 dog for the night.   If I got up early enough in the
 17 morning I would get the dog from him before he left for
 18 work.   If I didn't, he would tie the dog up in our
 19 courtyard outside that morning, and then -- therefore
 20 that morning I could walk the dog back again and put up
 21 posters trying to find the dog's owner.
 22           That's what we agreed at that point.  So there
 23 was some discussion at that point before I gave him the
 24 dog.
 25      Q    Did he take the dog then back to his
 26 apartment?
 27      A    No.   He took the dog for a walk at that
 28 point.   He walked -- he left with the dog through our
 01 apartment's back entrance, and that was the last I saw
 02 of the dog when he left with the dog through the back
 03 entrance.
 04           My wife and I continued to talk to his wife
 05 Bettina for a bit, and then went upstairs to go to bed.
 06      Q    All right.
 07           So at no time then did he take the dog back to
 08 his apartment?
 09      A    I didn't see him go into the apartment at that
 10 point.   I saw him -- again, the last I saw was when he
 11 walked off with the dog, and I went to bed.
 12      Q    To take the dog for a walk?
 13      A    Yeah.
 14      Q    And did his wife go with him?
 15      A    No.   At first he went -- he went off by
 16 himself and we spoke to the wife.
 17      Q    Now, were you interviewed by the officers of
 18 the Los Angeles Police Department about these events
 19 shortly after?
 20      A    Well, at 5 -- that morning at 5:00 a.m. there
 21 was a pounding on my door and my dog started barking,
 22 and I got up still in my underwear and went to the door,
 23 and there were two detectives outside.
 24           And I inquired what they wanted and they said
 25 that they wanted to talk to me about the dog in
 26 connection with a homicide.   So I asked them to wait
 27 outside and I got dressed and actually woke up my wife
 28 and explained to her what was going on.
 01      Q    All right.
 02           And have you seen the statement that they
 03 obtained from you at that time?
 04      A    No, I have not.
 05      Q    Could I show that to you?
 06      A    Absolutely.
 07      MR. UELMEN:  May I approach?
 08      THE COURT:  Yes, you may.
 10      Q    Mr. Schwab, it indicates that you told the
 11 officers you first encountered the Akita dog at
 12 11:15 p.m.; is that correct?
 13      A    Is which correct?
 14      Q    Is that what the statement says?
 15      A    The statement says that, yes.
 16      Q    All right.
 17           Is that what you told the officers?
 18      A    I was trying to remember at that point, and at
 19 one point I did mention 11:15.  I was -- again, it was
 20 5:00 a.m. in the morning and I was very confused at that
 21 point as to what time all of this occurred.
 22           Unlike here and now, the officer didn't, you
 23 know, say, "well what time did you leave the house, what
 24 time did you get here, what time did you get there."
 25           I was trying to remember and I couldn't
 26 remember whether the whole thing had started at 10:30 or
 27 11:00 o'clock or any of that.   And I was trying to -- I
 28 remember I stated a couple of things.   This is
 01 obviously the one he wrote down.
 02      Q    So at that time you did tell them it was
 03 11:15 p.m. when you first encountered him?
 04      A    That was one of the times that I had mentioned
 05 talking to them at that point, yeah.
 06      Q    And as you have reconstructed it, you've been
 07 able to identify that time with greater precision?
 08      A    Yes.   I was aware prior to this that that is
 09 incorrect.   I even called the police department back to
 10 explain to them that having remembered what had
 11 happened.
 12           It not being 5:00 a.m. anymore and being able
 13 to remember what happened that night, I called the
 14 police to inform them that I knew that this time is
 15 incorrect and that I recalled better what time it was
 16 because I knew better what time I had left the house and
 17 what time this whole incident started.
 18      Q    And the statement also indicates that when you
 19 encountered the dog, it was obviously lost, running from
 20 house to house, barking; is that correct?
 21      A    First of all, it doesn't say anything about
 22 barking here.   It incorrectly says that it's "Dundy and
 23 Dorothy," not "Bundy."   And despite the fact that it
 24 says it was running from house to house, that's not the
 25 way it happened.
 26      Q    And that's not what you told them.
 27      A    I probably -- I tried to explain as I've
 28 explained here about the dog going from house to house
 01 barking at the doors.   I don't recall ever saying that
 02 the dog was running, because the dog was at no time
 03 while it was in my possession running.
 04           As I said previously, the dog was very
 05 dehydrated.   It was not expending a lot of energy.   It
 06 was not running around at all.   It was doing a good
 07 amount of barking.
 08      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you.  I have nothing further.
 09           Maybe I do.
 10           One more question.
 12      Q    Did any officers come back to prepare a
 13 supplemental report after they spoke to you to correct
 14 any of these errors?
 15      A    No one spoke to me after that in connection
 16 with this at all.   I spoke to those two detectives and
 17 the next that I knew about anything relative to any of
 18 this was when I received my subpoena.
 19           A detective came to my apartment to issue me a
 20 subpoena.   That was the next time that I spoke to
 21 anyone in person about any of this from the police
 22 department.
 23      MR. UELMEN:  Thank you.  Nothing further.
 01         THE COURT:  Miss Clark, do you have any
 02 questions on redirect?
 03         MS. CLARK:  Very briefly, your Honor.
 05                     REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 07         Q    The detectives that you spoke to, sir, do you
 08 see them here in court?
 09         A    I -- I don't.  Again, it was 5:00 A.M., so I
 10 don't recall who they were, I'm sorry.
 11         Q    Were you pretty tired at the time you spoke to
 12 them?
 13         A    I was very tired when I spoke to them.  it
 14 was -- it was quite a -- it was scary to find out that this
 15 was connected to a homicide in some way.  So I was quite
 16 agitated, my wife was very upset, Sukru and Bettina were
 17 very upset.  and it was 5:00 A.M., it was relatively dark
 18 out.
 19         Q    Do you think that that agitation and that
 20 confusion as being confronted with a traumatic event
 21 at 5:00 in the morning, had something to do with the
 22 accuracy of the statement you may have given them at the
 23 time?
 24         A    Absolutely.  I was very confused at the time,
 25 and I know that the things especially relative to time that
 26 I said to the officer, was completely inaccurate.  I -- I
 27 was trying very hard to remember at that time, and it was
 28 still coming to me.  I was trying to fix in my head when
 01 the time was.  It wasn't like I had a minute to think, or
 02 try to remember what I did, or even what day of the week it
 03 was.
 04              Again, as I told the court, I have a routine
 05 with my dog that is -- that differs from on the weekends
 06 than it does during the week days.  And I was trying to
 07 remember at what time I left the house, and just -- at that
 08 point I wasn't even unsure whether I had left the house
 09 at 11:30 or 11:00 o'clock or 10:30.  I wasn't sure at that
 10 point at what time I left the house.
 11         Q    Were you even sure of what day of the week it
 12 was at the time you were talking to them?
 13         A    I was not clear.  Again, having been woken up
 14 in the middle of the night, I wasn't sure whether it was a
 15 week day or a weekend.  Especially in this case, it was
 16 Sunday leading into Monday.  So, it was a week day, but the
 17 previous night was still weekend.
 18         Q    And you didn't remember that at the time they
 19 spoke to you?
 20         A    No, no.
 21         Q    Was this a real lengthy interview you had with
 22 them at 5:00 in the morning, or --
 23         A    It was incredibly brief.
 24         Q    Incredibly brief?
 25         A    Yeah.  Again, the biggest thing I remember is
 26 that it was connected to a homicide, you know.  And at
 27 first I was going to invite -- have them come into the
 28 house, then I saw they were there with Bettina and Sukru,
 01 and my wife wasn't dressed yet.  So I said, "okay, let's go
 02 down to the court pool area of our building, and discuss it
 03 there."
 04         Q    and Did they speak to you separately?
 05         A    No.
 06         Q    Who was with you?
 07         A    My wife was with me, Bettina and Sukru were
 08 there, and there was the two detectives.
 09         Q    and Did they speak to you first, or Bettina
 10 and Sukru?
 11         A    Bettina and Sukru were already there.  They
 12 were with the detectives, and --
 13         Q    Well, at the time that you went down to speak
 14 to the detectives, were they speaking also, or was it just
 15 you?
 16         A    They -- there was -- there was some
 17 discussion.  actually, My wife was asking questions, I was
 18 asking questions.  Because, you know, we didn't know what
 19 was -- what was going on.
 20         Q    You were asking questions of the police?
 21         A    Yes.
 22         Q    But when they were asking questions of you,
 23 were you the only one speaking?
 24         A    No, I was not.
 25         Q    Who else was speaking?
 26         A    And this is difficult for me, because it
 27 was 5:00 o'clock in the morning.  I just -- I just remember
 28 that my wife had asked the police officers some questions.
 01 And I had started to reconstruct what time it was.  And the
 02 first -- at first I said I started at 11:30.  And then my
 03 wife said -- said, "no, you were home by then."  And that
 04 was correct.
 05              And so then I was saying, "well, maybe it was
 06 11:15."  I wasn't sure, I was still at that point trying to
 07 reconstruct what had happened.
 08              But by the time -- but then the police
 09 officers moved on to some other questions, other matters.
 10         Q    How long -- I'm sorry.  How long was the
 11 conversation you had with the police officers?
 12         A    I would say between five and ten minutes,
 13 tops.
 14         MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 15         THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen?
 16         MR. UELMEN:  Nothing further, your honor.
 17         THE COURT:  Thank you very much, sir.  I'm going to
 18 remind you, please, do not discuss your testimony with
 19 anyone but the lawyers in this matter, until you've been
 20 completely excused.  But you're free to step down.
 21         THE WITNESS:  Thank you.
 22         THE COURT:  I did want to make one statement to the
 23 lawyers with regard to the request for sidebar conferences,
 24 and traditionally, the sidebar conferences of the nature
 25 that we discuss things like what time a witness is going to
 26 be available, there's some particular need on the part of
 27 the lawyers to vary from court hours, something of that
 28 nature.
 01              I did grant a sidebar conference this morning
 02 at the request of the prosecution, probably for the kind of
 03 a matter that was not of the type that this court
 04 traditionally holds the sidebar kind of conferences for.
 05              For that reason, I did request that the Court
 06 Reporter prepare a transcript of the -- that sidebar
 07 conference.
 08              rose, do you know if that's completed?
 09         the reporter:  they're working on it right now, it
 10 will be ready by noon.
 11         THE COURT:  So, that the transcript of that
 12 proceeding will be available to the attorneys, and other
 13 interested parties, as soon as it's finished, and that
 14 should be about noon.
 15              I'm going to ask the lawyers that unless we're
 16 dealing with matters concerning scheduling, or things of
 17 that nature, that that will not be done at sidebar.
 18              Now, would this be an appropriate time to open
 19 the envelope that was delivered to the clerk court?
 20         MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, I have civilian witnesses.
 21         MR. UELMEN:  Your Honor, we will -- we will object
 22 to any opening of the envelope in open court.  We do not
 23 believe that the --
 24         MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, we don't probably need to
 25 have conferences at this point concerning that matter.  I
 26 have civilian witnesses present who are ready to testify.
 27              If we could, I'd appreciate it if we could
 28 take their testimony, rather than hold them here.
 01         THE COURT:  Well, that's fine.  With regard to this
 02 particular envelope, then, is there going to be some
 03 written authority delivered, or some kind of a request
 04 done, either to open it or not open it?
 05         MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes, your Honor, there will be a
 06 request not to open it.  That is sealed under the direction
 07 of the presiding judge of the Superior Court, under the
 08 direction of judge Delbert Wong.  And it is evidence that
 09 is in possession of the defense, and that we have no
 10 obligation to disclose, and we'll not disclose until we
 11 feel it the appropriate time.
 12         THE COURT:  Well, it was the presiding judge of the
 13 Superior Court that directed this court to open that
 14 envelope in fact on the record.  However, the Superior
 15 Court really doesn't appear that they actually had
 16 jurisdiction over this matter.  Which is why it was given
 17 to us in the first place.
 18              However, I will not do anything with that
 19 envelope in terms of opening it, until such time as
 20 appropriate briefs or other information is made available
 21 to the court.
 22         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, for the record judge
 23 Mills was not a party to any of these proceedings.
 24         THE COURT:  no, I know it was judge ito.
 25         MR. SHAPIRO:  To the best of my knowledge, it
 26 was -- all these matters were under seal, were sealed
 27 immediately, judge Mills does not have any direct knowledge
 28 as to what took place.
 01         THE COURT:  I don't know what he knows or what he
 02 doesn't know, but I will consider any authorities that you
 03 want to offer the court with regard to it.  I Won't do
 04 anything but have the clerk maintain it.
 05         MR. SHAPIRO:  That's all we want, thank you.
 06         MS. CLARK:  your Honor, How are we going to file
 07 points and authorities concerning the opening of that
 08 envelope, when this was obviously evidence submitted by the
 09 defense of which we have no knowledge.  judge ito is
 10 apparently the only judge that knows anything about it,
 11 other than the defense.
 12              so basically, the court is saying to the
 13 defense to write a brief concerning its objection to the
 14 opening of the envelope, to which we cannot respond,
 15 because we do not have any information as to how that
 16 envelope came to the possession of the Superior Court, who
 17 put the evidence into that envelope, what kind of evidence
 18 it is, when it was recovered, how, from where.  How can we
 19 possibly write --
 20         THE COURT:  All I'm prepared to tell you is judge
 21 Delbert Wong, who's a retired judge of the Superior Court,
 22 acting as a special master in connection with that and
 23 recovered whatever that item is.  Where and when or what it
 24 is, I do not know.
 25         MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, that should be item or
 26 items.
 27         THE COURT:  Item or items, correct, I don't know.
 28         MS. CLARK:  I THINK that perhaps --
 01         THE COURT:  And beyond that, and I think this is a
 02 NOVEL situation, I know it's a novel situation for me, I
 03 think for you as well, judge Mills made some comment that
 04 suggested that since there is a right of reciprocal
 05 discovery, and that there's been a request for discovery by
 06 both sides, that it would perhaps be appropriate for that
 07 item to be opened in open court.
 08              Now, as I say, I'm willing to hold off at this
 09 particular point.
 10         MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.  I think that's the best
 11 source of action for the court.
 12         THE COURT:  But I'm not saying that that is going
 13 to remain indefinite, the opening of that envelope.
 14              Call your next witness.
 15         MS. CLARK:  Thank you, your Honor.  People call
 16 Sukru Boztepe.
 17         THE COURT:  Raise your right hand, please.
 18         THE COURT CLERK:  You do solemnly swear the
 19 testimony you are about to give in the cause now pending
 20 before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
 21 nothing but the truth, so help you God.
 22         THE WITNESS:  Yes, I do.
 24                       SUKRU BOZTEPE,
 27         THE COURT CLERK:  Please be seated.  State and
 28 spell your name for the record.
 01         THE WITNESS:  Sukru Boztepe, S-U-K-R-U,
 02 B-O-Z-T-E-P-E.
 03         THE COURT:  You may inquire.
 04         MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 05              May I have a moment, your Honor?
 07                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 09         Q    Mr. Boztepe, as of June 12th, 1994, can you
 10 tell us in general, where you were living?  You don't have
 11 to give the exact address.
 12         A    On Montana avenue between Bundy and San
 13 Vicente.
 14         Q    And how far from the intersection of Bundy and
 15 Dorothy was that?
 16         A    500 or 600 feet.
 17         Q    And is that a home or is that an apartment
 18 building?
 19         A    Where I live?
 20         Q    Yes.
 21         A    It's an apartment building.
 22         Q    Were you living there as of June the 12th,
 23 1994?
 24         A    Yes.
 25         Q    On that night, that was a Sunday night, had
 26 you gone out at some point?
 27         A    Yes.
 28         Q    When did you come home?
 01         A    I came home 11:40.
 02         Q    When you got back, did you notice anything
 03 unusual?
 04         A    Yeah, our upstairs neighbor, Steven, was
 05 sitting in the -- our patio area, with his wife and big
 06 white dog.
 07         Q    Were you alone that night, when you came home?
 08         A    Yes, I was, yes.
 09         Q    Do you have a wife?
 10         A    Yes.
 11         Q    Where was she when you came home?
 12         A    She was in our house.
 13         Q    So, when you got home at about 11:40, you were
 14 alone at that time?
 15         A    Yes.
 16         Q    Where was it that you saw your neighbor with
 17 the big white dog?
 18         A    Just in front of our window almost, we have
 19 swimming pool and everybody is looking at the swimming
 20 pool, so they were sitting on the chair, in front of our
 21 window.
 22         Q    So, that was the pool area?
 23         A    Yeah.
 24         Q    Had you ever seen that dog before?
 25         A    No.
 26         Q    What was the name of your neighbor who you saw
 27 with that dog at about 11:40?
 28         A    Steven.
 01         Q    Do you know his last name?
 02         A    Schwab, I guess, I don't know how to pronounce
 03 it.
 04         Q    And who -- was Steven with anybody besides the
 05 dog?
 06         A    With his wife Linda.
 07         Q    Linda?
 08         A    Uh-huh.
 09         Q    Is that yes?
 10         A    Yes.
 11         Q    When you saw him with that dog, that big white
 12 dog you'd never seen before, what did you do?
 13         A    I asked, "whose dog is this?"  And they
 14 answered.
 15         Q    Based on what they told you, what did you do?
 16         A    I -- can you repeat it, please?
 17         Q    Yeah.  You asked him whose dog it was?
 18         A    Yeah.
 19         Q    And they gave you an answer?
 20         A    Yeah, they said that --
 21         Q    You don't have to tell me what they said.
 22         A    Okay.
 23         Q    You can just tell me what you did after they
 24 told you that?
 25         A    I came into my apartment, and woke my wife up
 26 to show the dog.  And we start talk about what -- what
 27 should we do about the dog, should we go to animal shelter
 28 or should we keep.
 01         Q    What did you decide to do?
 02         A    We decide to keep -- keep the dog overnight,
 03 and then call the animal shelter tomorrow morning, and give
 04 it to the animal shelter.
 05         Q    So, did you take the dog into your apartment?
 06         A    Yes.
 07         MS. CLARK:  Excuse me, one moment, please.
 08         Q    What happened when you took the dog back to
 09 your apartment?
 10         A    The dog was so nervous, running around in the
 11 house, going to the window, going to the door.  And we
 12 didn't feel comfortable with such a big dog in our
 13 apartment overnight, and we decide to take the dog for a
 14 walk.
 15         Q    How was the dog behaving when it was inside
 16 your apartment?
 17         A    Very nervous.
 18         Q    Can you describe what you mean by that?
 19         A    Yeah.  He just like -- as I talk, running in
 20 the house, going back and forth.  And we don't have a big
 21 house.  The dog was going to the window, scratching the
 22 door, smelling under the door, and trying to go out, I
 23 guess.
 24         Q    Did you notice anything unusual about the way
 25 the dog looked?
 26         A    Can you tell me again?
 27         Q    Anything about its body?  Anything on it that
 28 you saw?
 01         A    I was -- there was red spots on the -- on the
 02 dog -- on dog's feet, all of them.
 03         Q    All four of them?
 04         A    Yeah.
 05         Q    What about on the legs?
 06         A    Legs, too.
 07         Q    What did that red spots -- those red spots
 08 look like to you?
 09         A    Blood.
 10         Q    So, the dog was acting nervous, and so what
 11 did you want to do?
 12         A    We want to take the dog for a walk, so maybe
 13 we thought that we can find the owner.
 14         Q    How did you plan to walk the dog so that you
 15 could find the owner?
 16         A    Steven said that he found the dog around Bundy
 17 and Dorothy.  So we decide to take for a walk in that
 18 direction, and actually we just let the dog lead us.
 19         Q    So, you let the dog lead you?
 20         A    Uh-huh.
 21         Q    Is that yes?
 22         A    Yes.
 23         Q    And was the dog on a leash?
 24         A    Yes.
 25         Q    What time was it when you left your apartment
 26 with the dog?
 27         A    Very much around 12:00 o'clock.
 28         Q    Midnight?
 01         A    Yeah.
 02         Q    Did you go alone, or did you bring your wife?
 03         A    With my wife.
 04         Q    When you got out of the apartment building
 05 area, did you let the dog go in front of you?
 06         A    Yes.
 07         Q    Where did the dog lead you?
 08         A    South, to Bundy.
 09         Q    And then where?
 10         A    And then dog passed -- dog cross street to
 11 Bundy, cross the street to the other side, and then start
 12 to pull me a lot harder than it was before.
 13              And then he walk for a while, and then he
 14 stopped, turned right, and just stopped.  I turned right,
 15 too.
 16         Q    So as you proceeded southbound on Bundy, the
 17 dog began to pull harder and harder?
 18         A    Yes.
 19         Q    And then it stopped at some point on the
 20 sidewalk?
 21         A    Yes.
 22         Q    The point that -- on the sidewalk where it
 23 stopped, was there a path of any kind?
 24         A    Yes, it was a path to a house.
 25         Q    To the house?
 26         A    Uh-huh, yes.
 27         Q    Is that yes?
 28         A    Yes.
 01         Q    At that point where the dog stopped and looked
 02 to the right up that path leading to the house, how far was
 03 that from your house, your apartment?
 04         A    600 feet.
 05         Q    so, when the dog stopped at that point on the
 06 sidewalk, and looked to his right up the path, what did you
 07 do?
 08         A    Dog was just in front of me, and I had to
 09 stop, too.  I turned right, and looked exact the same --
 10 same direction that dog was looking.
 11         Q    And what did you see?
 12         A    I seen a body.
 13         Q    Can you describe it?
 14         A    It was woman, laying down horizontally, all
 15 the way to the path, face turned to me, and on the right
 16 side.
 17         Q    So, her face was facing out to the street?
 18         A    Yes.
 19         Q    The area where you saw her, was it well lit?
 20         A    It wasn't.
 21         Q    It was not?
 22         A    It was not.
 23         Q    Was it dark?
 24         A    It was dark.
 25         Q    Can you describe what else you saw In that
 26 area where you saw the woman?
 27         A    There was a lot of blood.  I could see only
 28 from the street lights, which comes from my -- from behind,
 01 so it was pretty dark.  And I have seen only for a quick
 02 moments and I change -- I -- I just turned around and never
 03 looked there again.
 04         Q    If the dog had not stopped where it did, would
 05 you have looked up the path and seen her?
 06         A    No.
 07         Q    Was there any light coming from the house near
 08 where you saw her lying?
 09         A    No.
 10         Q    Was there any light coming from the -- excuse
 11 me -- Strike that.
 12              If you recall, was there a gate anywhere near
 13 where you saw the woman?
 14         A    That, I don't remember, I haven't seen the
 15 gate.  I've just looked very low level, exactly where she
 16 was laying, so --
 17         Q    After you saw that, sir, did you walk up the
 18 path to where the woman was lying?
 19         A    No.
 20         Q    What did you do?
 21         A    I tell my wife that there's a dead person
 22 there, and we should call 911.
 23              We crossed the street, around to a house to
 24 call 911.  We knock the door, no one was there.
 25              And there was a lady who is walking to her
 26 car.  We stopped her, and told that she should call 911.
 27 And she said that she would call from the phone box, and
 28 she left.
 01              We didn't count on her, and we went to another
 02 house, next house to the opposite side of the street.  We
 03 knock the door, and there was an old gentleman there.  We
 04 tell him to call 911.  And he called 911, and I guess two
 05 minutes the police car came.
 06         Q    Between the time that you saw the woman lying
 07 there, and the time that the police came, did anyone walk
 08 up the sidewalk and up the path to approach where she was
 09 lying?
 10         A    No.
 11         Q    Did the dog do that?  Go up to where she was
 12 lying down?
 13         A    No.
 14         Q    What did the dog do after you both saw the
 15 body?
 16         A    Dog was pretty, pretty calm.  I mean, I pulled
 17 the dog, dog come -- dog came with us.
 18         Q    When the dog looked in the direction of the
 19 woman, did it bark?
 20         A    No.
 21         MS. CLARK:  Your Honor, I have here a series of
 22 photographs.  At the moment, I'm only going to be showing
 23 one labeled B.
 24         THE COURT:  All right.
 25         MS. CLARK:  I ask that they be marked as
 26 People's 5.
 27         THE COURT:  Yes.
 28         MS. CLARK:  Collectively.
 02         Q    Sir, I'm showing you People's 5 for
 03 identification.  Can you tell me if you recognize the scene
 04 depicted in photograph B?
 05         A    Yes.
 06         Q    Is that -- can you tell us what that is?
 07         A    It's exactly what I saw.
 08         THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I can't hear you.  Can speak
 09 up, sir?
 10         THE WITNESS:  This is exactly what I saw on that
 11 night.
 13         Q    Is that the woman that you saw?
 14         A    Yes.
 15         Q    And that's the condition in which you saw
 16 her?
 17         A    Yes.
 18         Q    Is that the path that you described for us?
 19         A    Yes.
 20         Q    Thank you.
 21         MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 22         THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen?
 23         MR. UELMEN:  Thank you, your Honor.
 25                      CROSS-EXAMINATION
 27         Q    Mr. Boztepe, when you walked the dog back to
 28 Bundy, and proceeded south, was there any traffic?  Did you
 01 encounter any automobiles?
 02         A    Not -- not that I remember.  Street was so
 03 quiet.
 04         Q    Street was quiet and empty?
 05         A    Very empty.
 06         Q    You indicated you saw a lot of blood in the
 07 area of the pathway that the dog led you to.
 08         A    Yes.
 09         Q    Did you observe paw prints or dog trackings in
 10 that blood?
 11         A    I didn't see, no.
 12         Q    Did you make any attempt to look at the
 13 pattern of the blood --
 14         A    No.
 15         Q    -- That you saw?
 16         A    No.
 17         Q    You just were aware that there was blood
 18 there?
 19         A    Yes, yes.
 20         Q    When you first received the dog from
 21 Mr. Schwab, did you immediately leave with the dog to go
 22 for a walk?
 23         A    No.  We -- we -- we took the dog inside of the
 24 house, and we wanted to keep the dog for overnight.  And
 25 then we understood that we couldn't do it.
 26         Q    Okay.  So, the first time you actually took
 27 the dog out on a leash for a walk, was after you had kept
 28 it in your house for --
 01         A    For a couple of minutes.
 02         Q    Couple of minutes?
 03         A    Yes.
 04         Q    About how long?
 05         A    Three minutes, I can say, four minutes.
 06         MR. UELMEN:  Thank you, nothing further.
 07         THE COURT:  Miss Clark, anything else?
 08         MS. CLARK:  Just one question, your Honor.
 10                     REDIRECT EXAMINATION
 12         Q    Was your wife with you when you went for the
 13 walk with the big white dog, and saw the woman lying on the
 14 path?
 15         A    Yes.
 16         MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 17         THE COURT:  anything further from the defense?
 18         MR. SHAPIRO:  No, your Honor.  Thank you.
 19         THE COURT:  You may step down.  I want to remind
 20 you, sir, please, do not discuss your testimony with anyone
 21 but the lawyers, until you have been completely excused
 22 from this action.
 23         MS. CLARK:  People call Bettina Rasmussen.
 24         THE COURT:  Face the clerk and raise your right
 25 hand, please.
 26         THE COURT CLERK:  You do solemnly swear the
 27 testimony you are about to give in the cause now pending
 28 before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
 01 nothing but the truth, so help you God.
 02         THE WITNESS:  Yes.
 04                     bettina rasmussen,
 07         THE COURT CLERK:  Thank you, be seated.
 08              State and spell your name for the record.
 09         THE WITNESS:  Bettina Rasmussen, B-E-T-T-I-N-A, my
 10 surname is spelled, R-A-S-M-U-S-S-E-N.
 11         THE COURT:  You may proceed.
 12         MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 14                     DIRECT EXAMINATION
 16         Q    Miss Rasmussen, are you married to Sukru
 17 Boztepe?
 18         A    Yes.
 19         Q    Is that the man who just left this court as
 20 you came in?
 21         A    Yes.
 22         Q    Directing your attention to the night of June
 23 the 12th, 1994, did you go with him for a walk That night?
 24         A    Yes.
 25         Q    With a dog?
 26         A    Yes.
 27         Q    Was that a dog that you had not previously
 28 seen before that night?
 01         A    I never seen it before.
 02         Q    Pardon?
 03         A    I never seen it before.
 04         Q    Do you recall where the dog led you?
 05         A    It took us down Bundy, off left side from
 06 Montana.  And suddenly, it drag -- it somehow wanted to go
 07 to the other side of the road, and we was following, and
 08 Sukru  -- the other side it stopped and turned, and looked
 09 at the walkway.  And my husband is turning the same way and
 10 he's saying to me, "there's a body, dead body," and I'm
 11 looking and turning around very fast again.
 12         Q    And you saw it as well?
 13         A    Yeah.
 14         Q    Did either of you walk up the path to where
 15 you saw the woman's body?
 16         A    No.
 17         Q    Did the dog do that?
 18         A    no.
 19         Q    I'm going to show you very briefly a
 20 photograph that's contained on People's 5, labeled B.
 21              I'd like you to tell me, if you could, if this
 22 is the scene you saw that night with your husband?
 23         A    I don't remember it that way.
 24         Q    What is different about this photograph that
 25 you remember?
 26         A    I feel was closer on the other side of the
 27 gate, and I could see her face.  It's what I remember.
 28         Q    This looks farther away to you?
 01         A    Yeah, but I didn't stand -- not this way, I
 02 was more on the right side.
 03         Q    You were standing off to an angle?
 04         A    Yeah.
 05         Q    So, if this photograph was taken from a
 06 different position than you saw, it would look different?
 07         A    Maybe.
 08         MR. SHAPIRO:  Objection, calls for speculation.
 09         THE COURT:  sustained as to the form of the
 10 question.
 12         Q    You were not standing directly at the
 13 beginning of the path leading up to where you saw the
 14 woman?
 15         A    No.  My husband and dog was standing there,
 16 and I came like a little bit -- I mean I came on the same
 17 side and moved behind, moved to right side.
 18         Q    You were off to the right?
 19         A    Yeah.
 20         Q    But other than that, does this look like the
 21 scene that you saw?
 22         A    Yeah.
 23         Q    Between the time that you -- well, strike
 24 that.
 25              Did you and your husband attempt to get the
 26 police?
 27         A    I couldn't hear you.
 28         Q    Did you or your husband attempt to get the
 01 police?
 02         A    Yeah.
 03         Q    Did you see the police arrive?
 04         A    Yeah.
 05         Q    Between the time that you saw the woman and
 06 you saw the -- you saw the police arrive, did anyone
 07 approach up that path toward where she was?
 08         A    No.
 09         Q    That night, can you describe the lighting in
 10 the area where you saw the woman?
 11         A    It was very dark, except those street light
 12 was kind of yellow, and I guess it was on the other side of
 13 Bundy.  So, it was like very dark, and like this yellow
 14 lighting, orange lighting.  So, not very bright, it was
 15 very dark.
 16         Q    Were there any lights on the building, the
 17 exterior of the building, that you saw her body next to?
 18         A    I don't know the building, but the walkway, I
 19 don't remember it was any light.
 20         Q    Very dark there?
 21         A    Very dark.
 22         Q    Did you see any other body lying on the ground
 23 besides the woman?
 24         A    No, I turned around very fast.
 25         Q    Now, since that night, have you driven by that
 26 location?
 27         A    A couple of times, yeah.
 28         Q    Did you notice what the lighting was like in
 01 the pathway, on those other nights, after you saw the
 02 woman's body?
 03         A    There's two lights now.
 04         Q    There's two lights that you've seen since
 05 then?
 06         A    Yeah.
 07         Q    Where?
 08         A    One in the middle of the walkway, and one
 09 around the gate, where you open the gate.
 10         Q    When you say, "the gate," the gate by which
 11 you saw the woman's body?
 12         A    Yeah.
 13         Q    And are those lights bright?
 14         A    Not very bright.  It's what's called dim or
 15 something, it's not very bright, it's -- I don't know what
 16 you call.
 17         Q    But you did not see those lights on the night
 18 that you saw the woman?
 19         A    no.
 20         Q    Had you ever gone by that location before that
 21 night?
 22         A    A couple of times, long time ago.  Normally
 23 I'm not going that way.
 24         Q    I'm sorry?
 25         A    Normally I'm not walking that way, but couple
 26 of years ago, I've been passing by at nighttime.
 27         Q    Do you recall what the lighting was like on
 28 those nights, at that location?
 01         A    I never knew about the house, it was just
 02 walking there to get home.
 03         Q    So, you didn't pay attention for that night?
 04         A    No.
 05         MS. CLARK:  I have nothing further.
 06         THE COURT:  Mr. Uelmen.
 07         MR. UELMEN:  Thank you.
 09                      CROSS-EXAMINATION
 11         Q    Miss Rasmussen, you indicated that when you
 12 looked at the photograph marked Exhibit 5, that the body
 13 seemed closer to you when you saw it that night?
 14         A    Yeah.
 15         Q    Closer to you in terms of where you were
 16 standing on the sidewalk?
 17         A    I saw it for such a short time, sir.  When I
 18 remember -- when I'm thinking about it, is that it was kind
 19 of closer to me, the other side of the gate is what I
 20 remember, but I saw it for such a short time.
 21         Q    Now, in the photograph it appears further back
 22 from the gate?
 23         A    Yeah.
 24         Q    Did you observe any paw prints in the blood
 25 that you saw on the sidewalk?
 26         A    That night?
 27         Q    Yes.
 28         A    No.
 01         Q    Did you look at the pattern of the blood that
 02 you saw?
 03         A    That night, I just looked at the -- I saw what
 04 it was, and I turned around very fast, so --
 05         MR. UELMEN:  Thank you very much.
 06              No further questions.
 07         Q    Can you tell us whether the blood that you
 08 observed, appeared to be still damp or wet?  Or was it
 09 dry?
 10         A    When I -- that night?
 11         Q    When you arrived at the scene.
 12         A    I was remembering is like it was coming down
 13 like a river.  I mean I saw it, and then I saw the body,
 14 and I remember -- like I saw -- like it didn't flow, but it
 15 looked like it was on the way down the walkway.
 16         Q    Looked as though it had flowed toward the
 17 sidewalk?
 18         A    Yeah.
 19         Q    But you didn't see any movement in the blood?
 20         A    I saw it maybe a half second, and I never
 21 looked back again.  So, I have no idea.
 22         MR. UELMEN:  Thank you.
 23              Nothing further.
 24         THE COURT:  Miss Clark, anything further?
 25         MS. CLARK:  No, your Honor.
 26         THE COURT:  Thank you.  I'm going to I remind you,
 27 please, do not discuss your testimony with anyone until
 28 you've been completely excused from this matter.  Thank
 01 you.
 02         MS. CLARK:  With respect to the remaining
 03 witnesses, your Honor, the defense has just indicated to us
 04 this morning, that there was going to be some discovery
 05 pertaining to that, that they were going to give us.  They
 06 have not yet given it to us.  Until I receive that --
 07         MR. SHAPIRO:  That's not correct, your Honor.
 08         MS. CLARK:  Excuse me.  Until I --
 09         THE COURT:  I'll let you speak in a moment,
 10 Mr. Shapiro.
 11         MS. CLARK:  Until I am able to view that
 12 information, I will not be able to examine the witnesses
 13 that are scheduled for the balance of the day.
 14         THE COURT:  So, are you in essence telling me that
 15 you've run out of witnesses at this point?
 16         MS. CLARK:  Well, no, not really, your Honor.  The
 17 witnesses -- I can bring them in, I haven't really run out
 18 of them, but I really -- I can't present their testimony
 19 until I know what it was -- what it is that counsel's
 20 purporting to give me.  I have no idea what he turned over,
 21 if he did turn it over.  I haven't seen it myself.
 22         THE COURT:  Mr. Shapiro, you want to say something.
 23         MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.  At the last break I informed
 24 Mr. Hodgman that we had two microcassettes of interviews of
 25 witnesses that the people had on their witnesses list.
 26              We wanted to make those available, and I
 27 thought that arrangements were made to give those to the
 28 members of the police department, so that they could make a
 01 tape recording.
 02               In any event, we have them here.  These are
 03 our originals, so long as our investigator can go with them
 04 and and play them, they're free to record from the
 05 originals.
 06         MS. CLARK:  So, we have not yet received the tapes
 07 at this point?
 08         MR. UELMEN:  I think we attempted to, but for some
 09 reason there was a lack of communication how it should be
 10 done.
 11         THE COURT:  What you're saying is you have two,
 12 half hours, did you say half hours?
 13         MR. SHAPIRO:  Half hour microcassette tapes of
 14 witness interviews.
 15         THE COURT:  Now, miss Clark, do you have the
 16 ability to play those over --
 17         MR. SHAPIRO:  I have a tape recorder that I will
 18 provide to play those.
 19              I'm sorry, I'm sorry, there are three tapes,
 20 there are three tapes Of interviews of two people.
 21         THE COURT:  Miss Clark, what is your request at
 22 this time?
 23         MS. CLARK:  Without hearing the tapes, I don't even
 24 know what to say.
 25              If I may listen to the tapes, I can at least
 26 present one witness.  But I don't know until I hear them,
 27 your Honor.  I don't know how long these tapes will take to
 28 listen to.
 01         THE COURT:  You first indicated there were two,
 02 half hours tapes.  Now there's three.  Are there three,
 03 half hour tapes.
 04         MR. SHAPIRO:  No, there were two conversations,
 05 each approximately a half hour in length.  One takes up two
 06 tapes, each on one side only.  One takes up a portion of
 07 one side.
 08         THE COURT:  All right.
 09              Well, at this point in time, we'll take the
 10 noon recess.  And you can listen to those tapes, and make
 11 whatever appropriate requests when you return at 1:30.
 12         MS. CLARK:  Thank you very much, your Honor.
 14         (whereupon, at 11:50 a. m., the court took the
 15          noon recess)
 04                                        )  no. BA097211
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06             VS.                        )
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                                        )
 10                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 12                        )   SS
 22           DATED THIS 1st DAY OF July, 1994.
 24                _____________________________________
 24                      ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 25                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 27                _____________________________________
 27                       ROSE FORBESS, CSR #4853
 28                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 04                                        )
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06                 VS.                    )   VOLUME 5
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 13                   FRIDAY, JULY 1, 1994
 16                              WILLIAM HODGMAN
 17                              DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY
 19                              GERALD UELMEN
 20                              SARA CAPLAN
 20                              PRIVATELY RETAINED COUNSEL
 27                              ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 27                              OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
 01                 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
 02                   Friday, July 1, 1994
 03                        1:34 P.M.
 04                          -O0O-
 06      THE COURT:  All right.
 07           We're once again on the record in the case of
 08 People versus Simpson.
 09           The defendant is present with counsel, the
 10 people are represented.
 11      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor.
 12           With respect to the matter concerning the
 13 tapes, I'd like to indicate to the court that by the
 14 time the micro cassette was converted to a regular
 15 cassette -- which is the only thing we can play -- and
 16 copied, it was already about a quarter to 1:00.  So we
 17 have not had an opportunity to listen to the tape.
 18           However, I listened to one of the tapes and it
 19 appeared that the date of the recording was June 14th,
 20 and we only just received discovery -- well, the court
 21 was present when we finally got the tapes in our hands
 22 about an hour and a half ago.
 23           So although discovery obviously could have
 24 been made sooner, it has not, and we are not  -- I
 25 cannot in good conscience proceed forward with a
 26 witness, being unprepared in this fashion.   I'm going
 27 to have to listen to the tapes as to each witness.
 28           Furthermore, there are other matters that I
 01 think we should take up in chambers.
 02           And with respect to discovery, I have here
 03 discovery concerning the events that transpired in
 04 Chicago involving this investigation, numbered pages
 05 C.H. 1 through 259.   And they also include one cassette
 06 tape.
 07           I'm turning it over to the defense in a manila
 08 envelope at this time.
 09      THE COURT:  All right.
 10           With reference to your request to have a
 11 conference in chambers, can you give the court some
 12 indication as to what the subject matter is you wish to
 13 discuss in chambers?
 14      MS. CLARK:  No, Your Honor, I cannot, but it is
 15 urgent.   It is urgent that I speak to the court on the
 16 record in chambers.   I think it would be imprudent of
 17 me to address this matter in open court.
 18      THE COURT:  All right, then.  I will go in
 19 chambers.
 20           If I make a determination immediately in terms
 21 of that discussion that it's one that should be in open
 22 court, then we will immediately return to open court.
 23      MS. CLARK:  Thank you very much.
 24      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, we also have a matter to
 25 discuss, but in open court at Court's convenience.
 26      THE COURT:  Do you want to do that now?
 27      MR. SHAPIRO:  Yes.   Ms. Caplan will address the
 28 court.
 01      MS. CAPLAN:  Your Honor, we had filed an ex parte
 02 application to be permitted to have material witness
 03 visits with Mr. Simpson in the attorney room.
 04      THE COURT:  Yes.
 05      MS. CAPLAN:  and over the weekend -- and Your Honor
 06 entered that order -- I was contacted by Deputy Koch at
 07 the Sheriff's Department, and he said that he wanted to
 08 have a face to face meeting with us on Tuesday, and
 09 until we could have that meeting we would not be
 10 permitted to have witness visits with Mr. Simpson over
 11 the weekend.
 12           As you know, the preliminary hearing will be
 13 resuming on Tuesday and it's essential that we be
 14 permitted to meet with Mr. defense -- with Mr. Simpson
 15 to prepare a defense.
 16      THE COURT:  All right.
 17           Do you have the telephone number for this
 18 particular deputy?
 19      MS. CAPLAN:  yes, I do.
 20      THE COURT:  Can we  --
 21      THE CLERK:  That's our Deputy Koch, yes.
 22      THE COURT:  Can we contact him?
 23      THE CLERK:  Sure.
 24      THE COURT:  And perhaps tell him that I would like
 25 him to come down to the courtroom.
 26      MS. CAPLAN:  thank you, Your Honor.
 27      THE COURT:  All right.
 28           Is there anything beyond that?
 01      MR. SHAPIRO:  No, that was it, Your Honor, thank
 02 you.
 03      THE COURT:  Then I will see counsel with the
 04 reporter in chambers.
 05      MS. CLARK:  Thank you.
 07           (At 1:37 p.m., a recess was taken.)
 09         (Proceedings were had in chambers, which
 10             were transcribed in Volume 5-A,
 11            and ordered sealed by the court.)
 01                 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
 02                   Friday, July 1, 1994
 03                        1:50 P.M.
 04                          -O0O-
 06                (The following proceedings
 07                 were had in open court.)
 09      THE COURT:  All right.
 10           We are once again on the record in the case of
 11 People versus Simpson.
 12           The defendant is present with counsel, the
 13 people are represented.
 14           At this time, Ms. Clark, you've indicated to
 15 the court that you need additional time in order to
 16 listen to those tapes in order to be prepared to present
 17 additional witnesses?
 18      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor.
 19      THE COURT:  And it's my understanding that you're
 20 requesting that the court adjourn these proceedings
 21 until Tuesday morning at 9:00 o'clock.   Is that
 22 correct?
 23      MS. CLARK:  Yes, Your Honor.
 24      THE COURT:  All right.
 25           Any objection from the defense?
 26      MR. SHAPIRO:  Your Honor, we have no objection, but
 27 we want the record to indicate that we are not waiving
 28 our right to a speedy preliminary hearing and that this
 01 is a continuation of it.
 02      THE COURT:  Yes, I certainly understand that.
 03 Please be assured that the court is devoting its full
 04 attention to this matter and no others.
 05      MR. SHAPIRO:  We have no doubt about that,
 06 Your Honor.   I just wanted the record to protect our
 07 rights.
 08      THE COURT:  All right.
 09      MR. SHAPIRO:  Thank you.
 10      THE COURT:  I would also state that there have been
 11 certain People's exhibits that have been marked this
 12 morning for evidence.   They have not been introduced
 13 into evidence, and at this time they are in the custody
 14 of the clerk, and there will be no access to anyone
 15 until such time as they are received and until a ruling
 16 is ultimately made as to the appropriate access for
 17 those exhibits.   At this time they will remain in the
 18 custody of the court clerk.
 19           All right.   Everyone have a pleasant holiday,
 20 and we'll see all of you bright and early on Tuesday
 21 morning.
 22           Thank you.
 23      MS. CLARK:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 24      MR. HODGMAN:  Thank you, Your Honor.
 27         (At 1:52 p.m., a recess was taken until
 28           Tuesday, July 5, 1994, at 9:00 a.m.)
 04                                        )  no. BA097211
 05                            PLAINTIFF,  )
 05                                        )
 06             VS.                        )
 06                                        )
 07                                        )
 07 ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,                )
 08   AKA O.J. SIMPSON,                    )
 08                                        )
 09                                        )
 09                                        )
 10                            DEFENDANT.  )
 10 _______________________________________)
 12                        )   SS
 22           DATED THIS 1st DAY OF July, 1994.
 24                _____________________________________
 24                      ARNELLA I. SIMS, CSR #2896
 25                       OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER