SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
SHARON RUFO,
Plaintiff,
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON et al.,
Defendants
FREDRIC GOLDMAN,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al.,
Defendants
LOUIS H. BROWN, etc.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,
Defendant.
Videotaped deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard, 10th Floor, Los Angeles, California, commencing at 9:45 a.m., on Tuesday, February 27, 1996, before David S. Coleman, CSR #4613, pursuant to Court Order.
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS FREDRIC GOLDMAN, ET AL:
MITCHELL, SILBERBERG & KNUPP
BY: DANIEL M. PETROCELLI, ESQ
PETER B. GELBLUM, ESQ.
ARTHUR GROMAN, ESQ.
11377 West Olympic Boulevard
Sixth Floor
Los Angeles, California 90064-1683
FOR THE PLAINTIFF ESTATE OF BROWN:
JOHN QUINLAN KELLY, ESQ.
330 Madison Avenue
New York, New York 10017-5090
(212) 682-1700
FOR THE PLAINTIFF SHARON RUFO
HORNBERGER & CRISWELL
BY: MICHAEL A. BREWER, ESQ.
444 South Flower Street
Third-First Floor
Los Angeles, California 90071
APPEARANCES (Continued):
FOR THE DEFENDANT ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON:
BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER
BY: ROBERT C. BAKER, ESQ.
PHILLIP A. BAKER, ESQ.
2850 Ocean Park Boulevard
Suite 300
Santa Monica, California 90405-2936
-and-
BAILEY, FISHMAN & LEONARD
BY: DANIEL LEONARD, ESQ.
66 Long Wharf
Boston, Massachusetts 02110
(61 7) 723-1980
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: ROD RIGOLE
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Here begins videotape No. 1 in the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume LX, in the consolidated cases of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs. Orenthal James Simpson in the Superior Court, State of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is SC 031947.
Today's date is Tuesday, February 27th, 1996. The time is approximately 9:49. This deposition is being taken at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California, and was made at the request of the plaintiff of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp.
The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed by Coleman, Haas Martin and Schwab of Los Angeles, California.
Would counsel please identify yourselves and state whom you represent.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly for Plaintiff Brown.
MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for Fredric Goldman.
MR. GROMAN: Arthur Groman for Plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MR. BREWER: Michael Brewer for Plaintiff Sharon Rufo.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Phil Baker for O.J. Simpson.
MR. LEONARD: Dan Leonard for OJ. Simpson.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Bob Baker for OJ. Simpson, held hostage, Day 9.
MR. KELLY: It's almost half-time, Mr. Baker.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Good morning, Mr. Simpson.
A: Good morning, Mr. Kelly.
Q: Mr. Simpson, do you recall cutting yourself at any time between Mother's Day 1994 and June 13th, 1994 when over at Nicole's condo at 875 Bundy?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall bleeding at any time for any reason, such as a bloody nose, any time between Mother's Day 1994 and June 13th, 1994 when over at Nicole 's condo at 875 Bundy?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Were you ever even at Nicole's condo at 875 Bundy any time after June 6, 1994 and prior to June 13th, 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: And when was that?
A: I couldn't tell you exactly, but quite often.
Q: No. After June 6,1994.
A: Oh, June 6. No. I'm sorry. I thought you were still in May. I'm sorry. No.
Q: Okay. So between--
A: June 6 and--which I believe was a Tuesday, no.
Q: Okay. So no time between that Tuesday and the time of Nicole's death were you over there?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. And do you wear a size 12 shoe, Mr. Simpson?
A: At times.
Q: Okay. Let me ask you: Did you ever have golf shoes in your golf bag that came back from Chicago?
A: Were there golf shoes in there?
Q: Yeah.
A: I believe so.
Q: Do you know what size they were?
A: No.
Q: Okay. As you sit here today, Mr. Simpson, do you have a visible scar on the middle knuckle of the middle finger of your left hand?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And is that approximately an inch to an inch and a half long?
A: I would think not.
Q: About an inch long?
A: I would--maybe a little less than an inch, possibly.
Q: Okay. And is that scar on the middle knuckle of the middle finger of your left hand a result of the cut you had on or about June 13th, 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And can you tell me with certainty exactly how you received that cut on the middle finger of your left hand?
A: In the process of cleaning up some glass, I cut myself.
Q: Okay. And you're certain that's when you cut that finger, resulting in the scar?
A: Yes. When I saw--yes, when I knew it was cut, yes.
Q: But you're certain that you caused the cut in that bathroom with that piece of glass?
A: I'm certain that while I was cleaning up some glass I cut myself, and I noticed that it was coming from this middle finger, yes.
Q: Okay. And that was the first time you had ever seen that cut: In that bathroom in Chicago?
A: Correct.
Q: Going to June 12th of 1994, could you tell me at what time Arnelle left the house that day or evening?
A: No.
Q: Did she go to the recital with you?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you see Arnelle at any time after the recital on June 12?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me when the last time you saw her prior to the recital on June 12th was?
A: No.
Q: Could you tell me the last time you had spoken to Arnelle prior to the recital on June 12th, 1994?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me whether you told Arnelle what your plans were for the night of June 12th, 1994 after the recital?
A: I don't know. I don't recall.
Q: Well, do you recall having a conversation with Arnelle at all that day on June 12th?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you recall having a-- Did you see Arnelle on June 11th, 1994?
A: I may have, but I don't have any memory about what--if I had or didn't. I may have, though.
Q: You may have seen her?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: I just don't recall.
Q: Do you have a memory of actually speaking to her?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. Do you recall telling Arnelle at any time on June 11th or 12th what you would be doing between 7:00 and 11:00 p.m. on June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever tell Arnelle what your plans were for between 7:00 p.m. and 11 :00 p.m. on June 12th 1994?
A: I had no plans.
Q: Okay. Now, you heard Mr. Kaelin's testimony. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you've answered several questions about Mr. Kaelin also?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me whether from -- Kato, I will refer to him as --whether Kato could see the front of your house from his room at his Rockingham residence?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And I believe you indicated
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You mean the front by the entranceway?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: The front entranceway from his room.
A: No.
Q: Could he see the driveway from his room at Rockingham.
A: No.
Q: Could he see the Ashford gate from his room at Rockingham.
A: No.
Q: Could he see the Rockingham gate from his room at Rockingham.
A: No.
Q: Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: From his room at?
MR. KELLY: At Rockingham.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
MR. KELLY: The Rockingham gate.
Q: Now, and I believe you indicated earlier that you often had friends pick you up for go if, and Mr. Kaelin never knew about it?
A: I've never seen him in the morning.
Q: Okay.
A: I play golf almost every morning.
Q: Okay. Did you ever see Kato when you're leaving for golf?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see him when you're coming back from golf?
A: Possibly, but I rarely saw him, period.
Q: Period.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And as far as you know, he rarely saw your movements, period, also. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. And was there any-- is there any
place from your residence in Rockingham that you can see inside the room Kato was occupying?
A: Anywhere in the backyard. Well, most places in the backyard around the pool.
Q: Okay. But I am asking from the interior of your house, can you see into Kato's house?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, Kato doesn't have a house. You mean his space.
MR. PETROCELLI: His room.
MR. KELLY: His room.
THE WITNESS: Possibly. I've never really thought about it, but possibly. It depends on what slats were loose or if the door to the room next to his is open. If that door is open, you can see in there fairly well from the living room and dining room and probably even from upstairs.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well--
A: If that door is not closed and the slats on his door are open, you probably can see part of the room, but you'd have trouble seeing all of the room from my house.
Q: Well, from your house, when you say, "if that door was open," that's just the door to your office, is it not?
A: Yeah, it's a door to the room next to his room, and it's normally open-
Q: Okay. So-
A:--yeah.
Q: So you'd have to be in that office to see into his room if that door was open. Is that correct?
A: No.
Q: Either from that door or his front door?
A: I'm sorry? I'm sorry, I'm a little confused.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You want to get out the drawing, and maybe we will put it in your mind's eye?
MR. KELLY: Well, I've tried to put it in everybody's mind's eye. No, I don't need the drawing. Let me just ask a couple more questions.
Q: Where from the interior of your house other than your office could you see into Kato's room?
A: You mean if that door to the room next to his is open?
Q: Correct.
A: From the--anywhere in the entertainment portion of my house, from the TV room, the bar, the little bay window I have, possibly from the dining room.
Q: Okay. And is that-
A: And possibly from upstairs. I'm not sure. Possibly from upstairs.
Q: Okay. And is that a glass front door to Kato's room that goes out to the pool area?
A: Now you're talking about another door. Right?
Q: I'm talking about Kato's door now.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And does he have any windows in his room facing the back of your house on the front area of his room?
A: Well, the door's all glass.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let's go back to that question.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
THE WITNESS: The back of my house.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: There are no doors that face--or windows that face the back of Mr. Simpson's house because his bungalow, if you will, is perpendicular to the house.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: Is that correct, Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes. But it faces the pool area.
Q: Okay. So all these rooms you discussed,
the entertainment room and the like, are perpendicular to Mr. Kato's room?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And do you ever recall being in your residence in Rockingham and being able to hear Kato's TV on-
A: No.
Q:--in his room.
A: No.
Q: Do you ever remember being in your residence at Rockingham and being able to hear the phone ring in his room?
A: You mean he had a different phone. Right?
Q: Yeah.
A: Probably I couldn't.
Q: Okay.
A: But I don't ever recall hearing it. Maybe if I was trying to, but I don't recall ever hearing it ring.
Q: Okay. If somebody would come over to your house between 9:30 and 10:45 on June 12th, 1994, could that have been done without Kato knowing it?
A: I would imagine so, yes.
Q: Okay. And if you had made any long distance call between 9:30 and 10:45 on June 12th, 1994, you certainly could have done that from your residence without Kato knowing. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And if you had even, say, left your residence at Rockingham at 9:30 on June 12th, 1994 and gone to visit a friend till 10:45, you could have done that without Kato seeing you. Isn't that correct?
A: I would imagine so, yes.
Q: Okay. And with regard to Arnelle also, you could have had someone over between 9:30 and 10:45 p.m. and she wouldn't know, if she was home. Is that correct?
A: I'm sorry. You got me--What do you mean? Where does Arnelle fit here now?
Q: Well, from her residence-
A: Arnelle lives at my home. If she was in her bedroom sleeping or something?
Q: Yeah.
A: Now, what's the question?
Q: Did you have any--I will ask it differently. Did you have any discussions--Strike that. When the police officers woke up Arnelle on the morning of June 13th, she had no information from you as to what you had been doing between 9:30 and 10:45 p.m. the night before, did she?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well-
THE WITNESS: I have no idea. I don't know one way or the--I don't know if she talked to Kato or what, so I don't know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: But you hadn't discussed it with her, had you?
A: What I had done from--I hadn't seen her.
Q: Right.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And when the police officers woke up Kato, he had no information from you as to what you had been doing between 9:30 and 10:45 the night of June 12th, 1994, had he?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, you are asking him to speculate what information he had.
MR. KELLY: I am asking from him, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Whether he told him-
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
MR. ROBERT BAKER:-- what he was doing?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That has been gone into at least 10 times. Go ahead, OJ
THE WITNESS: I think Kato was aware that I was trying not to sleep, and I was preparing myself to go to Chicago, yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. But no specific conversations as to what you were going to do in that time period?
A: That I was not going to sleep and that I was preparing to go to Chicago. I thought that was pretty specific. I thought he was aware of that, yes.
Q: Okay.
MR. LEONARD: Excuse me. That juice is right in the shot.
MR. PETROCELLI: Which juice are you referring to?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's o.j. in front of OJ.
MR. PETROCELLI: Couldn't resist.
MR. KELLY: I think that's even been gone over before in this deposition: The juice.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I think you're right.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: On June 12th, 1994, Mr. Simpson, on the way to the airport did you discuss with the driver, Alan Park, what you had been doing between 9:30 and 10:55 before he drove in the driveway at your residence?
A: I doubt it.
Q: Okay. On June 13th now, was there any time during that day that you discussed with Kato any of the evidence the police officers had collected at Rockingham?
A: I didn't know what they had collected.
Q: Did you-
A: I didn't know. I just heard some rumors, I believe, but I didn't know.
Q: Okay. The specific question is, Mr. Simpson: Did you have any discussions with Kato regarding any evidence that had been collected at your Rockingham residence?
A: Not that I recall, no.
Q: Okay. Did you have any discussions on June 13th at any time with Arnelle regarding any evidence the police officers had collected at Rockingham?
A: I don't think so, no.
Q: Okay. Was there any time during June 13th that you discussed with A.C. Cowlings any evidence collected at Rockingham?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: Okay. By the way, Mr. Simpson, did you know before noon on June 13th, 1994 that A.C. had taken Sydney and Justin down to the Browns' house?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Okay. Did you know that even before 9:00 a.m. on June 13, that A.C. Cowlings was taking Sydney and Justin--
MR. PETROCELLI: L A. time.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's what I wanted to know. You mean L A. time or Chicago time?
MR. KELLY: LA. time, first of all, with the noon question.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That would be 11 :00 in Chicago. So he is asking you 11 :00 o'clock on Chicago time on the 13th, did you know?
THE WITNESS: I knew sometime that morning. I knew--by the time I got back to L.A., I knew A.C. had. I'm not sure if I thought both A.C. and Arnelle had, but I knew A.C. was involved. I knew A.C. was driving.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. And you knew that when you were still on the flight back--
A: I don't know.
Q: --to L.A.?
A: I just knew that morning. Before I got to my house, I knew that.
Q: Okay. When you spoke to the police at any time on the 13th, did you ever discuss with them or they with you blood that had been found at Bundy?
A: Discuss other than in the interview, when it came up in the interview, and somebody mentioned it when I was handcuffed. I don't know about Bundy. They said, "There was blood at Bundy. There's blood at your house." You know, other than that, they didn't specifically say anything.
Q: Okay.
A: That I recall, anyway.
Q: When do you recall them hearing --when do you recall hearing them say there was blood at Bundy?
A: The guy when I was handcuffed said, "We got sort of a problem. We got blood there. We got blood here." It was like blood was everywhere.
Q: Did he specifically say Bundy?
A: He may have, yes.
Q: Okay. Did he mention anything about shoe prints at Bundy?
A: I doubt it.
Q: Did he mention anything about a bloody glove behind Kato's room?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: Okay. At any time during the day other than when you were handcuffed, do you recall anybody discussing with you blood found at Bundy?
A: I can't recall. I just know that by the time I got to my house, I knew that the murder--a murder had taken place at Bundy, and then whatever that guy was saying to me when I was handcuffed.
Q: Okay. Other than the guy talking to you when you were handcuffed, do you recall having any discussions about blood being found at Bundy on the 13th?
A: Not really, no, other than there was blood everywhere, yeah.
Q: That's what he said to you.
A: Words to that effect. "We got blood there. We got blood here." It was something to that effect, yes.
Q: Okay. And you never recall any
discussions with anybody on the 13th regarding the shoe print?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And do you recall any discussions with anybody on the 13th regarding a bloody glove?
A: I don't recall, but I--you know, by that night there was rumors about everything: Ski masks, I believe. and something--everything. So there was a lot of talk about a lot of things, and I can't recall exactly where--who or from where it was, news or it was somebody with us that I heard any of this.
Q: Okay. Now, you keep--you mentioned ski masks several times, Mr. Simpson. What I am asking you specifically: Do you recall at any time on the 13th discussing with anybody a bloody glove found behind Kato's room at Rockingham?
A: I don't know if I did or not, so I just--I don't know when that came up. So I don't know.
Q: Okay. Now-
A: I never discussed it. So I know I never had a discussion with anybody about it, but I don't know when I first heard all of that stuff because it was a lot of things being said, and I can't recall when the information was coming.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You've more than answered the question.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You indicated earlier that there was a time that you went out behind Kato's room by the air conditioner. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And could you tell me at whose suggestion that was, Mr. Simpson?
A: Maybe mine.
Q: Okay. And do you recall who you suggested it to?
A: No. I just know a couple of people walked with me back there. And I can't recall who it was.
Q: Okay. Now, that space between the house and the Cyclone fence behind Kato's room, that's very narrow, is it not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Would you be able to approximate how many feet wide it is?
A: Four feet maybe.
Q: Okay. And as you sit here today. is it your testimony you don t recall who you were back with where that evening?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you recall any discussions you had back there behind his room that evening when you were
with a couple other people?
A: No. Just we went to look. Kato said he had heard noises, and I didn't know if the--I don't know why. We just went to look.
Q: You're talking about Kato when he was out in front of your house before you left for the airport?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And is it your testimony that that's what caused you to go back there the next evening to look back there?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did Kato tell you he had heard noises by the air conditioner the night before?
A: No.
Q: What specifically had he told you, if you recall?
A: That behind his -- there was noises. "Was there an earthquake? There was some noises." I really wasn't paying that much attention to him because I was trying to leave, but he seemed concerned, and at one point I suggested he go one way and I go another way. In case somebody was there, there would be only two ways they can go, but we ended up not doing it.
Q: Would it be fair to say that an earthquake noise would suggest a very general-type occurrence?
A: I don't know. You know, that was his description, and I wasn't really, as I said, paying that much attention to him.
Q: Okay. But you specifically went back by the air conditioner on the evening of the 13th.
A: No. We walked back--the whole back of the thing and just looked. Wasn't the air conditioner. The air conditioner is there. It's hard to walk down that walkway without walking by the air conditioner. It's in the middle of the back wall. So we didn't go to the air conditioner and turn around. I walked the whole thing back there.
Q: Okay. Mr. Simpson, as you sit here today, do you recall the last golf ball you hit in your front yard at about 10:00 p.m. on June 12th 1994?
A: What do you mean? I don't get the question.
Q: Well, you indicated you skulled your last chip in your front yard. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you specifically recall that?
A: I remember that's when I stopped, yes.
Q: Okay. And you stopped because of a particular reason?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was?
A: Well, I think it was the last ball, but I could have grabbed another ball. There was a bunch of balls, one. And, two, I skulled it, and I didn't want to hit my Bentley. I had just gotten all the dents out of my Bentley, and I didn't know where the ball went.
Q: Okay. And you recall actually hearing it hit something, didn't you?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And you specifically remember even hitting the ball before that over a tree in your front yard, don't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. But you-
A: I don't know if it was the shot before that. It could have been two shots before that. But I do know I hit one shot over to Mrs. Nebeker's, or in that direction.
Q: Okay. But you don't recall who was on that back pathway with you on June 13th.
A: No.
Q: Okay. As of approximately noon on the 13th when you arrived back at Rockingham, could you tell me if there was any way Arnelle knew what you were doing between 9:30 and 10:45 the night before?
A: I don't know. We talked a few times on the phone that morning, so I don't--you know, she was in a bad way, and ... You know.
Q: When was the first time you spoke to her?
A: When the police called me.
Q: And to the best of-your knowledge did she just get on the phone after you had spoke to the police?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall the next time you spoke to her after that?
A: I believe it was still that morning, and I just don't know when that morning.
Q: Do you know where she was when you spoke to her the next time?
A: You know, it was a lot of calls going back and forth or at least me calling, trying to get various people. I may have talked to her again before she left the house. I know I talked to her probably after the kids were picked up. I just don't know when. I just don't know when.
Q: Okay. Did you have any discussion with who you might have been with between 9:30 and 10:45 the night before?
A: I wasn't--Between what?
Q: 9:30 and 10:45 p.m. the night before.
A: Did I have a discussion about it?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you have any discussion with her that morning who you might have spoken to between 9:30 and 10:45 p.m. the night before?
A: 9:30 and 10:45? No.
Q: The night before.
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you have any discussions with her at all where you might have been between 9:30 and 10:45 p.m. the night before?
A: Home.
Q: Did you tell her that?
A: I don't know. I don't know. I think we may have talked about what time she got home. We may have talked about that. I'm not sure. No, I don't have a clear recollection of it, but I might have asked her what time did she get home last night.
Q: Did you tell her where you were between 9:30 and 10:45 p.m.?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Specifically between those two times. Did you tell her between those two times where you were?
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. You saw Kato on the 13th at some point, didn't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you tell him specifically what you had been doing between 9:30 and 10:45 the night before?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you tell him specifically whether you had been with anybody or not between 9:30 and 10:45 the night before?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell him specifically anybody you had spoken to between 9:30 and 10:45 the night before?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell him specifically you had not spoken to anybody between 9:30 and 10:45 the night before?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And with regard to Alan Park, the same questions: You didn't give him any details on the way to the airport what you had been doing between 9:30 and 10:45 p.m. on the 12th?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Now, do you remember approximately what time you got down to Parker Center?
A: No.
Q: Okay. It was afternoon, was it not?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't think it was Parker Center.
MR. KELLY: No?
Q: Well, do you recall where you went?
A: No.
Q: Did you show up at some office building with your attorneys downtown?
A: No. MR. KELLY: Wasn't it? Was it downtown?
MR. PETROCELLI: (Unintelligible.)
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Oh, that's right.
MR. KELLY: Memory goes first, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I think you're right, John. Everything else is gone, so it's amazing that I have anything left.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Simpson, do you recall giving statement to the police sometime on June 13th when you got back from Chicago?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And do you recall that being in the early afternoon on June 13th?
A: It could have been.
Q: Okay.
A: I don't really--it could have been.
Q: Well, prior to that statement had you-- and I am talking when you were in the office with Lange and Vannatter, had you ever told any police officers who you were or were not with between 9:30 and 10:45 p.m. the night before?
A: I may have.
Q: Do you know to whom you might have said that to?
A: One of my calls to LA. that morning was to--the LAPD either answered the phone at my house or Nicole's house, and I'm not sure; it may have been Lange, because one of them said, "It's very important. When did you leave last night and what did you do before you left last night or words to that effect.
Q: Okay.
A: But somebody with LAPD said to me "It's very important," because I didn't know these officers at the time, "what time did you leave last night" and I just can't recall if he asked more questions than that.
Q: Okay. Do you recall what time that call or phone discussion with Lange was?
A: It was before I left Chicago, so it would have been Chicago time before 9:00 o'clock, I guess. LA. time before 7:00 o'clock.
Q: Okay. Was that a call you initiated?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall how long that conversation was?
A: No.
Q: Did Lange answer the phone, by the way, when you called?
A: I didn't know the officers then. He may have said Lange--he may have said he was Lange. But I didn't know the officers, and whoever answered the phone.
Q: Did you--do you recall at any time before giving your statement telling any police officer who you might have spoken to between 9:30 and 10:45 the night before?
A: I don't think anybody ever asked, no.
Q: Okay. But did you ever tell?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you ever tell any police officer prior to giving your statement where you had been besides home on 9:30,10:45 the night before?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You're talking about the recorded statement. Right?
MR. KELLY: Prior to it.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: I hadn't been anywhere other than home.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you tell any police officer that?
A: Whenever an officer asked me what time I left, I think he may have asked me, "Where were you before you left," and I told him "Home."
Q: Okay. Do you have a specific recollection of that?
A: I know there was a conversation -- somebody was asking me on the phone where I was the night before and I pretty much told him that.
Q: Okay. But you specifically remember it was a phone call you initiated?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Okay. And you were still in your room,
do you recall?
A: Yes.
Q: And, Mr. Simpson, they drew a sample of your blood after you completed giving your statement to Detectives Lange and Vannatter, did they not?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. And could you tell me approximately how long a drive it is from where you gave that statement back to your residence at Rockingham in terms of time?
A: Depending on traffic.
Q: Well, could you approximate for me?
A: No. You guys--you have to ask one of these other lawyers. I couldn't. Because depending on traffic, I don't know.
Q: Is it less than a half hour?
A: If there's no traffic, probably, yes.
Q: Okay. Can you make it in 15 minutes without traffic?
A: Maybe.
Q: Okay. And the same holds true for 875 Bundy?
A: I would think so, yes.
Q: Okay. By noon Pacific Standard Time, California time, on June 13th, had you had any conversations with Cathy Randa as to what you had been doing between 9:30 and 10:45 the night before?
A: No.
Q: Prior to noon Pacific Standard Time on June 13th-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We're actually on daylight time at that time. It's not a big deal.
MR. KELLY: You sure?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I'm just suggesting that you might want to modify your question. You don't have to. obviously.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Well, just at any time prior to your flight arriving back from Chicago, had you discussed with anybody, other than the one phone conversation you just mentioned, what you had been doing between 9:30 and 10:45 the night before?
A: No.
Q: Okay. When you left Rockingham for the airport the night of June 12th 1994, did you lock the front door?
A: I believe Kato was at the front door. My memory is he was at the front door, and I told him to see if he can find a flashlight and continue to look.
Q: No. What I am asking you is: Do you
recall locking the front door to your residence?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a key to the front door of your residence when you left?
A: I may have.
Q: Okay. Well, I believe you indicated previously you have never been locked out of your house before. Is that correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. But do you recall whether you had a key on the night of June 12th when you left for the airport \from Rockingham?
A: There is an area I keep a key. So if I didn't have one on my person, there's a place where I keep a key at my house.
Q: On the exterior?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did Kato have a key to your main residence on the night of June 12th 1994?
A: Not that I was aware of.
Q: Did he know where you kept the key to your main residence the night of June 12th 1994?
A: Not that I'm aware of.
Q: Did you tell him the night of June 12 where the key to your main residence was-
A: Not that I'm aware of.
Q: --on the night of June 12th 1994?
A: Not that I'm aware of.
Q: Okay. Do you have exterior motion detectors as part of your alarm system at Rockingham?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Now or June of '94?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: As of June 12th 1994, did you have motion detectors--exterior motion detectors on your alarm system at Rockingham.
A: No.
Q: Okay. Was there any way to trigger the alarm system to your house from the exterior without opening a door or window?
A: I'm sorry?
Q: As of June 12th, 1994, was there any way to trigger the alarm system on your house from the exterior other than by opening a door or window?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You mean by a remote button-
THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.
MR. ROBERT BAKER:-- or by throwing a rock through the window or-
MR. KELLY Yeah.
Q: Or just by movement or sound or
A: Outside of the house?
Q: --contact. Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Okay. When you called from the airport, did you ever ask Kato to lock the front door that you recall?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, first of all, I think he called from the car.
THE WITNESS: No. It was the airport.
MR. PETROCELLI: Airport.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It is gone.
MR. KELLY: It is gone. I don't want to steal your thunder, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's gone.
MR. LEONARD: It's no reason to leave, Bob.
MR. KELLY: Let me take off my mike and ask a couple of the real questions now.
Q: So, Mr. Simpson, even if Kato was on the exterior of your house with a flashlight after you left, there would be no way by just his movements outside the house he would set off the alarm, would he?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. And once again, it's your
testimony you don't recall whether you locked the front door or not?
A: No. My recollection is I walked out of the front door and Kato was behind me, and I told him to look for a flashlight. I had mentioned to him about putting on the alarm, and it appeared as if it was gonna--you know, Kato was being Kato, and I said, " Look for a flashlight," and I'd give him the alarm--I'd call for the alarm.
Q: Well, when you say "Kato...being Kato," did you think of him as a little scatterbrained?
A: I don't know. Just Kato being Kato. You spent time with him.
Q: Yeah, I did.
A: Kato was being Kato.
Q: I am asking you: Did you consider him a little scatterbrained?
A: I considered him being Kato. That's the way I've always known him to be, and whatever that is Kato.
Q: Okay. Well, is it your testimony you left the front door to your residence at Rockingham the night of June 12th, 1994 open?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And Kato didn't have a key.
A: No.
Q: Okay. And you didn't tell him where a key was.
A: No.
Q: Okay. And you didn't have the alarm set.
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. And you had never given him access to your house before without you being there, had you?
A: No.
Q: Mr. Simpson, just generally would it be fair to say that Nicole took a lot of photographs?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: Yeah. I mean, right up to 1994, from-- or say the last 10 years, she was always taking photographs, was she not?
A: Ever since I met her, yes.
Q: Okay. And she would frame a lot of them?
A: Yes.
Q: And an awful lot of them were on display in your Rockingham house?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And when she lived at Bundy that last year and a half, she had a lot on display there?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And do you know whether she kept
the extra photographs that she didn't frame, also?
A: No.
Q: You don't know?
A: Well, I'm sure she did. She always had photographs.
Q: Okay. Did she have photo albums?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. And would she take pictures of. say, parties you guys had?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And during vacations she'd bring her camera?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And do you recall her even taking pictures of the house, inside and out?
A: I don't recall it, but-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You mean without human subjects?
MR. KELLY: Yeah, without human subjects.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall it.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you ever recall seeing her take pictures of the decorating she had done in your house after she had completed it?
A: I've never seen it. She may have, but
I've never seen her do it.
Q: Okay. Did you have a chance any time after June 12 to go through Nicole's collection of photographs at Bundy?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Now, Mr. Simpson, you stated earlier at your deposition here and on your infomercial--you referred to the Bruno Magli shoes as I think "ugly'' and I think you said "nasty" once, too. Is that correct?
A: No. I said, "I wouldn't wear those ugly shoes," yes.
Q: Okay. And I think you also indicated that you had seen them during the trial?
A: The pair that they had at the trial is the only pair I've seen that I knew was Bruno Magli shoes.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me as you sit here today, do you know the size of the shoe that left the shoe print at 875 Bundy on the night of June 12th?
A: I believe Agent Bodziak said that they were 12s.
Q: Okay. And could you tell me the color of the shoes that left-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That he saw in the trial?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me the color of the shoe that you saw at trial?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I can't see how that's relevant to any issue in this case, but go ahead.
THE WITNESS: There were two pair of shoes. They may have been bluish-green or green and blue. Bluish-they were--yeah, I believe. I'm not a hundred percent sure on that.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Well, do you know how many different styles men's Bruno Maglis come m?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you know how many different colors they come in?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether they come in tie-ups?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether they come in slip-ons?
A: Well, tie-ups I know they come in because I believe that's what they had in court.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether they come in a
slip on shoe also?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether they come in high-cuts?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether they come in low-cuts?
A: No.
Q: Okay.
A: Well, high-cuts--I believe they were mid-cuts or-- I believe the ones that were in jail-- I mean when I was in court may have been high-cuts. They may have been . Or mid-cuts. I'm not a hundred percent sure.
Q: Okay. Do you remember seeing a below- ankle height men's Bruno Magli?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you recall ever seeing those Bruno--men's Bruno Maglis in a brown color?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether they're made in brown?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you know what material they were made out of?
A: We're talking the ones in court?
Q: Yeah.
A: They seemed to be -- I don't know. I don't know
Q: Okay. Do you know whether Nicole ever took a picture of you in a men's Bruno Magli shoe?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you know for certain that she did not?
A: Shoes that looked like the ones I saw in court, yes, I know for certain that she didn't take a picture of me looking--in shoes like those, yes.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether--if Nicole ever took a picture of you in men's Bruno Magli shoes?
A: That were like the ones in court. no.
Q: No, I am not--I will ask it once again, Mr. Simpson: Do you know if Nicole ever took a photograph of you in men's Bruno Magli shoes?
A: Not that I know of, because I don't know if I've ever owned Bruno Magli shoes.
Q: Do you know whether you owned a pair of men's Bruno Magli shoes in June 1994?
A: No.
Q: Do you know for a fact you did not own a
pair of men's Bruno Magli shoes in June 1994?
A: No.
Q: Okay. On the night of June 12th 1994, do you recall having cash up in your bedroom?
A: Say that again.
Q: Do you recall having cash, U.S. currency, up in your bedroom.
A: When?
Q: On the evening or night of June 12th, 1994.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And approximately how much was that?
A: I left 5- or $6,000 there that I put under my sweater. I remember doing that, talking it out of--because it was all together at that point, so I recall leaving that amount there.
Q: Okay. And do you recall what denominations it was?
A: 100s, 50s, mostly 100s. There may have been a 50 or two, but basically l00s.
Q: Okay. But it wasn't all 100s?
A: I believe it was. It may have been a couple of 50s, but I believe it was mostly 100s.
Q: Okay. Now, you were employed by Hertz in
June 1994, were you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And part of your duties with Hertz, one of the things you would do is play golf with preferred customers there, would you not?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. And sometimes you would attend parties and functions for them with their preferred clients?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Were there times you'd actually give talks at conferences and things for Hertz?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. And these various things I just referred to were all part of your job with Hertz, were they not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And was part of your job responsibility to always be gracious and hospitable when you would attend these various functions and events?
A: I think that's why they hired me.
Q: Okay. And would it be fair to say that you would keep personal matters or moods to yourself when you were attending these events for Hertz?
A: I think I did it most of the time, yes.
Q: Okay. And in June 1994 you were an announcer for NBC?
A: I was under contract with NBC. I wasn't doing any work for them in June, but I was under contract for them.
Q: Okay. Well, the last couple years that you had done work for them, what type of work were you doing?
A: Football, color commentary work, and mostly in the pre-game show, and if--during the Olympics I did the Olympics.
Q: Okay. You had never competed in the Olympics yourself, had you, though?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you do a lot of on-site interviews with competing athletes when you were doing your color commentary?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you didn't have any script or rehearsed questions ahead of time when you would interview these people, would you?
A: No. You studied. You studied your subject, obviously, so that you could be prepared. So l like to think I was a guy who did--who studied a
lot, yes.
Q: Okay. But when you would, say, conduct a post-game interview with a competing athlete in a football game it would be based on what you had just observed, would it not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And some of your questions would be based simply on the responses you got from the person you were interviewing, also. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And during your college and pro football career, there were many times you were interviewed by others, were you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And at USC would you at times give interviews right after you had come off the field when you were competing?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you were with the Buffalo Bills, were there times you would be grabbed right on the field after a game and give interviews?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And that was done without any rehearsal or forethought, your responding to these interviews, were they?
A: Just like you and I right now.
Q: Okay. Right. There was a time you did "Monday Night Football" also.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And were there ever times you just didn't feel like going to work when you were working on TV?
A: I always liked what I did. You know, there's times you didn't want to get on a plane and go someplace, but I like to think whenever I was involved in it, I enjoyed doing it and I liked doing it, yeah. the plane portion of it was the uncomfortable part. The actual doing it, I've always enjoyed doing.
Q: Okay. And you were always able to put your personal matters or moods aside when you're going on air, weren't you?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And in your acting career, I think there were some movies where you were one of the principals, say the NAKED GUN series, were you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: I don't know if I was a principal in NAKED GUN, but thank you.
Q: I don't want to disagree with your lawyer, but you had some sort of acting career.
A: Thank you.
Q: I didn't describe it. I just said you had it. Could you tell me--with, say, for example, the NAKED GUN series, you had actual written scripts you had to review and prepare with, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: And even in preparing with those scripts, you had to allow for your co-actors' lines and actions also, did you not?
A: Yeah, it's like you'd work with a person, yes.
Q: Okay. And you would often learn these right on location when you were getting ready for these movies?
A: No. I'd study my script and know my part and then work out the movements on the set.
Q: Okay. Since June 12th, 1994 have you ever--have you given any paid commentary or performances other than your infomercial?
A: No. Commentary, you know, I talked to a photographer who gave some--sold some pictures to the Star, so if that's considered commentary. It was mostly his observations and my words. I don't recall if I ever really gave him any words with it, but I know I discussed my feelings to an extent, and since I never read the stories, I don't know if any of those feelings were communicated.
Q: Okay. Other than the Star Magazine-- Star Magazine we're referring to?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Other than that and your infomercial, can you think of anything else?
A: No.
Q: Did you-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Mr. Petrocelli wants you to ask that question. Please read it and ask that question.
MR. KELLY: I'm sorry. I can't read his handwriting. Can you?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes. I can read it upside down. Do you want me to ask it?
MR. PETROCELLI: Do you want me to ask?
MR. KELLY: You know, you might want to write the answer for him, the way they're reading it here.
Q: Did you ever get paid -- I should get paid for asking this.
Mr. Petrocelli:.
Q: Did you ever get paid for conducting a magazine or newspaper interview since June 12th, 1994?
A: I told you, the Star.
Q: Other than Star Magazine.
A: I don't know if I did an interview. I don't know if that was an interview. That was more for pictures. Other than the video, no.
Q: Okay. Now, prior to June 12th, 1994, would it be fair to say that you had had a good relationship with the LA. Police Department?
A: I had a good relationship with everybody.
Q: Okay. But I am asking you specifically with the Los Angeles Police Department.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, that assumes he has a relationship with the L A. Police Department. I don't have one, and I don't know that anybody has a relationship with the police department, so I think it assumes facts not in evidence or without foundation and instruct him not to answer the question.
MR. KELLY:
Q: well, do you recall the book I WANT TO TELL YOU?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall a picture in there of someone with a Los Angeles Police Department hat on?
A: Maybe my son might have had an LAPD cap in a picture.
Q: Do you know where he got it from?
A: I can only guess. A.C. or Ron Ship.
Q: And do you recall in your book I WANT TO TELL YOU discussing your relationship with the Los Angeles Police Department at all?
A: I might have, but I have no relationship with them. I didn't know anyone on the force at that time, so I didn't--I didn't have a relationship with them.
Q: So if you indicated at some point that you had had a good relationship with the L.A. Police Department prior to June 12th, 1994, there was no basis for that statement?
A: The basis in that I had a good relationship with the L A. Fire Department. I didn't know anybody on the L.A. Fire Department, but I assume I had a good relationship with them. So it would be along those lines. I mean, I didn't know anyone with the L.A. Police Department. I didn't know anyone with the L.A. Police Department. I don't think I knew any
Marines, but I always go out of my way to be nice to them. And even since I've been out of jail, if they show up at my house for autographs, I give them autographs. So I didn't know anyone there. To say I was personal with them, I always like to think I'm on good terms with authority, yes.
Q: well, did you ever support the Los Angeles Police Department?
A: I support them now.
Q: I'm--Was there any time you didn't support the Los Angeles Police Department?
A: Emotionally after I--some of the things that happened in this trial for a period of time, emotionally I blamed the whole force, but now I don't.
Q: Okay. But prior to June 12th, 1994 did you support the L A. Police Department?
A: Yes. And I still do.
Q: Okay. And you had no reason before June 12th, 1994 to think the Los Angeles Police Department didn't support you, did you?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, I don't know that there's --that presupposes a whole bunch of things that I don't know that he would have any way of knowing.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That calls for speculation. Instruct him not to answer.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. There was a time that a police officer or police officers came to your house when you had a bat in your hands. Do you recall that?
A: When they came, I don't think I had it in my hand, but there was a time when after an incident they came to my house, yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall what that was?
A: I think '84.
Q: Okay. And do you recall the name of any of the police officers that came to your house at that time?
A: I think it was only one, and he was only there for like 30 seconds or so, and I don't think he introduced himself, and that was it.
Q: Well, as you sit here today, do you know who that police officer was who came in 1984?
A: Today I'm told it was Mark Fuhrman.
Q: Okay. That's Detective Fuhrman?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And when he came there in 1984, he did not file a police report, did he?
A: Well, there was nothing for him to do. As he testified in court on cross-examination, there was nothing for him to do. There was no reason for him to be there at that time, and he left. So there was no report to file. There was nothing for him to do. If you look at his testimony, he testified to that, so...
Q: Okay. Is your answer no, he did not file a police report?
A: I don't know what he did. I really don't. I know there was no reason for him to be there, and he realized that and left.
Q: Okay. Well, he didn't come to your property because he heard the bat hitting the car, did he?
A: And he didn't come on our property because anybody on my property called him.
Q: Do you know how he-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Go ahead.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you know how he had occasion to show up at your property?
A: No.
Q: And what property was this at?
A: Rockingham.
Q: Okay. That's, what, the gate to the Rockingham entrance?
A: We didn't keep the gate closed in those days.
Q: Okay. Was this a marked police car he showed up in?
A: I never saw. They were outside the gate.
Q: Did he walk up the driveway?
A: I believe so. I just saw him in the front yard at one point.
Q: And you never called the police.
A: No.
Q: Nicole never called the police.
A: No.
Q: Was Michelle working there at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know if Michelle called the police?
A: She didn't, no.
Q: And he just showed up on your property, Detective Fuhrman, after that incident.
A: Yes.
Q: And how long after you had broke the windshield did Detective Fuhrman show up on your property?
A: Half hour maybe.
Q: And were you still out front with Nicole at that time?
A: We had just walked outside. I had just walked outside because a Westec guy was--had come and was leaving, and I walked outside, and then Nicole came outside.
Q: And why was the West person there, if you knew?
A: Because Nicole hit a button for West.
Q: Do you know whether West called the police?
A: No. I don't know.
Q: West is a security company?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And how long after the West person arrived did Detective Fuhrman arrive?
A: The West guy came; he was there for about a minute, and as he was leaving I believe someone came up, and which I'm told now is Detective Fuhrman. He stayed for about 30 seconds, and he left.
Q: Okay. Did he look at the cracked windshield?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you have any idea what-
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you know--do you recall how close to the car with the cracked windshield he got?
A: No.
Q: Okay. But he never talked to Nicole about filing a report, did he?
A: No. He says, "Was everything all right?" He said--I recall the police officer saying, "Who broke the window?" I said, "I did." And he says, "Everything all right?" And we said, "Yeah, and he left.
Q: You didn't hear of any leaks to the media regarding the fact--regarding this incident after that fact, did you?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You didn't get any follow-up visits from police officers, did you?
A: There was no reason to.
Q: With regard to the New Year's Eve/New Year's Day incident at Rockingham in 1989, I believe you indicated the police did not see fit to take Nicole to the hospital?
A: No.
Q: They-
A: When I came back home, she hadn't been to the hospital, so I assumed they didn't.
Q: Okay. And when you left the house early that morning after the police Officer Edwards arrived, he didn't pursue you at all, did he?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: And if you know, did he put out a radio call for backup or anything when you left there?
A: I have no idea what he did.
Q: Okay. Were you ever arraigned that-- any charge in that case?
A: Yes, I believe--well, arraigned, I don't know. I ended up going to court.
Q: Okay. Were you ever fingerprinted?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Were you ever down Central Booking?
A: No.
Q: Were you ever handcuffed?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And in fact you indicated another detective came the next day who was checking on Edwards?
A: He came, and he was interviewing about the incident. He didn't come the next day. He talked to me the next day. He asked about the incident. I guess he talked to
Nicole and he talked to myself. He asked some questions about Detective Edwards, and I guess he said he'd put the report in. He was gonna put the --put it in, whatever-
Q: Anything unprofessional about that visit that next day with you and Nicole?
A: Well, the night it was, but the next day it wasn't. The next day was on the telephone, so, you know, it was-whatever.
Q: And Ron Ship is an ex-Los Angeles Police Department officer, isn't he?
A: Yes.
Q: And you knew that prior to June 12th, 1994 when you were friends with him?
A: Yeah. I have known Ron for a number of years, yes.
Q: Did you ever meet other Los Angeles Police Department members that he brought to your house?
A: When you say bring to my house, yes. They stopped out front, and if I was outside, I talked to them. Occasionally they'll come in and have a Coke or Pepsi and leave, yes.
Q: And on--You never had a fight or
argument with any of these guys, did you?
A: No. They seemed like all-right guys.
Q: Was there ever a time they asked you to contribute to something you didn't?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall them ever asking you to speak or appear somewhere that you didn't?
A: I don't recall ever doing that for them, no.
Q: Okay. Is there anything at all that you can tell me about that would cause you to think prior to June 12th, 1994 the Los Angeles Police Department had anything against OJ. Simpson?
A: As a department, no, but I've run into some police officers who were obviously problem police officers.
Q: Well, you had told us about Police Officer Edwards on the morning of January 1, 1989.
A: Yes.
Q: Could you relate any other incidents to me?
A: At least five times in my life I've been stopped and taken out of my car. A year previous to--in '92, I believe it was, a cop stopped me on Cliffwood and--two cops stopped me. One had his gun
out, and when I asked why they got their gun out to me, the guy just asked for my driver's license.
I kept saying, 'Why has this guy got a gun on me?" And then I guess they saw it was me, and they wrote me a ticket, and I wasn't speeding.
Yeah, like most black guys, I've been. you know, stopped a few times, and until they saw it was me, and consequently they--then it was okay.
Q: Okay.
A: But they stopped me only because I was black and in a nice car. That's the only reason I was stopped.
But they always let you go because of who you were?
A: I don't know. Once they saw I hadn't stolen the car I guess they let me go.
Q: On June 13th when you went down to the station with Lange and Vannatter, I think you indicated they were conscious of the fact that you were tired at that time?
Yes.
Q: And I think you indicated they were actually concerned about getting you back home and getting the statement over with?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't think he indicated
any concern whatsoever. He indicated what they said.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did they state something to you to the effect, "OJ., we just want to get this over with and get you back home?
A: Yeah, "We just want to get this over with so you can go home?
Q: Okay. And were they polite to you when you were down there?
A: I don't know. They were just, I guess, police officers, as far as I was concerned.
Q: Doing their job.
A: As far as I was concerned, yes.
Q: And Detective Fuhrman wasn't with them during that statement you gave, was he?
A: Not that I recall. Other police officers were coming and going. I don't recall seeing him, but I couldn't--I wouldn't recognize him, anyway.
Q: Okay. And to the best of your understanding on June 17th, you were given the opportunity to surrender to the police. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And to the best of your understanding, did there come a time that police
officers were sent to Kardashian's home?
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay. But as you understand it, your attorney, Mr. Shapiro, had reached an agreement with the LAPD for your surrender. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. And as far as you know, prior to your surrender the LAPD agreed not to send any officers to Kardashian's home, did they?
A: I don't know. I thought every time Mr. Shapiro said something to me-I don't know. I really don't know.
Q: Okay. Did Mr. Shapiro indicate to you that the LAPD knew where you were at that point?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you know whether the LAPD knew you were at Kardashian's on the morning of June 17th?
A: No.
Q: When you were on the telephone in your Bronco the evening of June 17th, did you have any discussions with Detective Lange?
A: I don't know. I don't recall. I may have, but I just don't recall. I believe I might have, but-
Q: Do you recall the substance of any of those discussions?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall talking to any police officers other than Lange?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you don't-
THE WITNESS: I don't recall talking --I don't know who I talked to. Lange may have been one of them, but I was kinda in a daze at that time.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you have any recollection of anything you said to any of these officers?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any recollection of anything these officers said to you?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you recall hearing A.C. indicate on the phone that he wanted to get you back to Rockingham?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall driving back to Rockingham?
A: Yeah, I do. I do kinda re---I don't know. I know A.C. at one point was yelling at somebody outside of the car, and I think when he was yelling at somebody outside the car, he said, "I'm taking him home."
Q: But for the couple hours on the interstate--that was 405, wasn't it?
A: I don't know. I was laying in the back, so I have absolutely no idea where he was.
Q: Did you ever indicate to A.C. that you wanted to get back to Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you eventually got back to Rockingham-
A: Yes.
Q: --did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. The police didn't stop you at any time before you got to Rockingham, did they?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And in fact when you got back to Rockingham, they allowed you to leave the Bronco and enter the front door at Rockingham, did they not, too?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me what your actions were after you got in the front door at Rockingham on the 17th?
A: I think I just went and sat in a chair, and they talked to me. I can't recall what they
talked to me about.
Q: Okay. Did you make any phone calls?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. Do you recall at what point they put handcuffs on you?
A: No.
Q: When you were sitting in that chair, did you have handcuffs on?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall making any phone calls before they put handcuffs on you?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall being frisked in the house?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. Was there anything discourteous or unprofessional in the way you were treated at Rockingham the night of the 17th when you got back there?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: Okay. Now, Mr. Simpson, I believe you played two years of junior college ball. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And then you had two years at USC?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And what position did you play at USC?
A: Tailback.
Q: Tailback. And were there times that you were on the receiving end of passes?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Flare passes?
A: Yes.
Q: Screens?
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I have no clue what this is leading to. You're gonna have to tell me, because we are nor going into his football career here.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: Did you ever drop a pass that hit you in the hands, Mr. Simpson?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't drop the glove,
Mr. THE WITNESS: In a game I never recall dropping a pass.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: No?
A: In a game I never recall dropping a pass.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He was never coached to fumble.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever fumble, Mr. Simpson?
A: I'm sure I did, but I wasn't considered a fumbler.
Q: But you weren't considered what?
A: You know, some players have reputations of being fumblers, but I don't think I was never considered a fumbler.
Q: Okay. But did you ever fumble in your years with Buffalo?
A: Oh, yeah, I'd been hit a few times and gave up the ghost, as they say, yes.
Q: Did you ever run into players on the sidelines when you were forced to the sideline?
A: I may have.
THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. "Did you ever"
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: - run into players when you--
A: I was knocked into players, yes.
Q: Okay. Did you ever get knocked into walls?
A: Into what?
Q: Walls?
A: Yes.
Q: During your playing days?
A: Yes.
Q: Benches?
A: Yes.
Q: Down markers?
A: Yes.
Q: Officials?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you remember, when you were making your infomercial, making the statement that it was ridiculous to think you could have dropped the glove back there because you spent your whole life avoiding players and things and not fumbling?
A: Yes. I don't think I fumbled. I fumbled because guys were grabbing at me and hitting me. It's a little different, I think, yes.
Q: And you play golf also now, don't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Favorite sport now?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you started playing in the late '80s?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And do you have a better than- average handicap?
A: Today, no.
Q: Well, as of June 12th, 1994?
A: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: Okay. And do you play right-handed?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And I assume you always wear a golf glove when you play?
A: Not always, but most of the time, yes.
Q: Well, on June 11th when you played at-- I assume you played at Riviera on the 11th?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you wear a golf glove that day?
A: Sometimes. Some clubs I have I don't wear a glove, but I would have worn a glove during the course of that round, yes.
Q: Okay. Other than a putter, is there a particular club you don't wear a glove with?
A: Mostly par 3s.
Q: Okay. Short irons?
A: Short irons, bigger grip.
Q: Okay. By the way, your Callaway clubs, do they have a special grip made for you?
A: When they sent them to me, yes. I changed it at some point, but they sent me those clubs--well, yes.
Q: Okay. Were they oversized grips?
A: They put on--when they sent them to me in May, they sent them to me with what they call arthritic grips.
Q: Which were?
A: Real big grips.
Q: Okay. Do you know the approximate diameter of those grips?
A: No, but I think the name of them are arthrit---I think they call them arthritic grips, and that's the way they were sent to me from Callaway.
Q: Okay. Did you play--you played golf Sunday on June 12, too, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you wear day?
A: During the course of the day, yes.
Q: Okay. Other than on the par 3s, can you think of a time when you were playing that you didn't have your glove on?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And when you sent that bag off to Chicago the night of June 12th, was there one or more golf gloves in the bag, even?
A: I hope so.
Q: And I think you indicated you wear an Extra Extra Large?
A: Depending on the glove, as you know; you're a golfer. Some gloves I need XXL. Some gloves I can wear Large. If they stretch, they just don't last long because they tear.
Q: Okay. And those snap over your wrist?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And generally golf gloves are soft leather?
A: Yes.
Q: And as you stated yourself, that you can stretch hem over your hand to fit, can you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And I think when you--in giving your statement to the police on June 13th, 1994, you indicated that you would get nicks and things on your hands playing golf. Do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall ever getting a nick or cut on your left hand with the golf glove on it any time June 11th or June 12th?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And had you played golf previous occasions that same week?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. What days were they?
A: Every day.
Q: And it's your usual practice, I assume, to wear a golf glove.
A: Yes.
Q: Except for par 3s?
A: Yes.
Q: That was always on your left hand, was it not?
A: Yes. MR. KELLY: Take a break?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:56. (Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 11:22.
BY MR. KELLY: Mr. Simpson, I am going to just generally ask you about several people who I think are close to you in terms of friendship and the like, and we can just discuss them briefly. With regard to Skip Taft--
A: Yes.
Q: -- how many years, approximately, have you known him
A: 25 maybe.
Q: Okay. And do you have a professional relationship with him
A: Yes. He's my lawyer, what I call my family lawyer and advisor, basically.
Q: Okay. So is he a business manager, so to speak?
A: You could say that, yes.
Q: Okay. And as of June 12th, 1994, he had a general power of attorney from you, did he not?
A: Possibly. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but possibly.
Q: Would he enter into any contractual obligations for you or on your behalf without consulting you?
A: Without consulting me?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Okay. Does that hold true also for after June 12th, 1994?
A: He may have without consulting me after June 12th, yes.
Q: Okay. Had you changed the power of attorney he had in any way?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, was he the business manager for Simpson Enterprises?
A: Basically, yes.
Q: And he would take care of all your --the personal type matters in terms of residence bills and things like that also?
A: They would go across his desk, yes.
Q: Okay. And same--You had mentioned heating repair bills back a couple years. You indicated he would have them in his possession?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't think he-
THE WITNESS: I'm totally lost, what you're talking about.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well, when Mr. Petrocelli was taking your deposition, he was asking you about heating repairs that may have been done on your house in the last three years prior to June 12th 1994.
Do you recall that?
A: I think it's something about me going to the back--me going to the back and lighting the pilot and stuff for my heaters.
Q: Yeah. And you indicated to check with someone regarding bills going back three years. Is that-
A: I mean, if there's bills--I don't think I charged myself for lighting my heater, but if they're bills-
Q: I wasn't asking you about billing yourself, Mr. Simpson.
A: Yeah, if they're bills concerning changing heaters or major bills, they would have gone through Skip's office, yes.
Okay. Does he actually write the check for the utility bills and the like?
A: I think my--we had an accountant come through, and she probably wrote it. He may have signed them, yes.
Q: But he keeps records of all those
A: I believe-
Q: --heating--I'm sorry.
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Okay. And so for, say, he would have records of all your heating bills that have been paid?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't speculate on what records he's got if you haven't seen them.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: If you know.
A: I don't know.
Q: Would those go to his office?
A: In '91 if I had bills, they would have gone through his office, yes.
Q: Would electric bills have gone through his office?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Would phone bills have gone through his office?
A: I believe so.
Q: What about pool service bills?
A: I believe so.
Q: Tennis court maintenance?
A: I believe so.
Q: And do you know whether or not he kept permanent records of those bills that went through his office?
A: No.
Q: Now, Cathy Randa, how long have you known her for?
A: About 20 years.
Q: And has she worked for you for 20 years?
A: The majority of the 20 years, yes.
Q: Okay. In what capacity?
A: An assistant.
Q: Okay. At Simpson Enterprises?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that who she was an employee of?
A: Orenthal Productions, Simpson Enterprises, yes.
Q: Okay. Was there any substantial period of time she took a leave from that employment?
A: What is "substantial"?
Q: More than three weeks?
A: Yes.
Q: More than a month?
A: I believe so.
Q: And for what purpose?
A: Medical purposes.
Q: Now--
A: But she -- I paid her, you know, so she just wasn't able to be in the office and stuff.
Q: Okay. Do you recall what the medical condition was?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. It's invading her privacy.
THE WITNESS: You'd have to ask her.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: A.C. Cowlings.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. How long have you been-That's a childhood friend?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say as of June 12th, 1994, he was one of your closest friends?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Jonah Wilson. How long had you known him for prior to June 12th, 1994?
A: Maybe 15 years. That's a guess, but maybe 15 years.
Q: Was he basically Arnelle's close friend?
A: Yes.
Q: He wasn't a close friend of yours?
A: He's a friend of my kids.
Q: Okay. Marcus Allen. How long had you been friends with him for?
A: Trying to think when he went to SC. --17-I mean till today, you mean? 17 years.
Q: He would have been there in the late 70S wouldn't he, at USC?
A: When he went to SC, and I can't --yeah, it would have been in the late 70s.
Q: Well, you left in '69?
A: Pardon me?
Q: You left there in '69, didn't you?
A: I left there in '69.
Q: And he was 10 years behind you?
A: At least, yeah.
Q: All right. Would you have considered him as of June 12th, 1994 one of your closest friends?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. What about Tawny Kitaen? Would you have considered her one of your closest friends as of June 12th, 1994?
A: Closest, no, but friend, yes.
Q: Okay. And I think you indicated she was Cathy Randa's best friend?
A: For a while for sure, yes.
Q: Okay. By the way, how far did Tawny Kitaen live from your Rockingham residence in terms of miles?
A: I don't know. She--when?
Q: As of June 12th, 1994.
A: It depends. I think she was living between Newport Beach and Hollywood, so whatever Hollywood would be.
Q: And she was in a 310 area code, as far as you know?
A: Yes
Q: Okay. Now, prior to June 12th, 1994 did you consider Cora Fishman a close friend of yours?
A: No.
Q: Okay. How long had you known her for?
A: As of what?
Q: As of June 12th, 1994.
A: Four, five years.
Q: And what about Ron Fishman? Had you known him four or five years also?
A: Yes.
Q: And how would you come to befriend Ron and Cora Fishman?
A: It had to do with Nicole and the kids.
Q: In fact would it be fair to say that prior to June 12th, 1994, Sydney was best friends with Cora's daughter?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And that friendship has considered -- continued since June 12th, 1994, has it not?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you know Cici Shahian at all?
A: Yeah, I met her, yes.
Q: Okay. You had no friendship with her, though, yourself?
A: No.
Q: Never called her on the phone?
A: No.
Q: Okay.
A: I may have when her father was dying, but ...
Q: What about Robin Greer? Did you have any sort of friendship with her?
A: No. She was married to a friend of mine, and--years ago, and I think they had come by, and I used to have a lot of people over on weekends playing tennis, and then she was my ex-wife's sister's friend, so I knew her when she was an early teen, but not a friend of mine, no.
Q: Did you know Cici Shahian as a close friend of Nicole's in the last year or two prior to June 12th, 1994?
A: She was a girl that was around. I don't know how close they were, but she was around. I'd see her around.
Q: Okay. What about Robin Greer? Did you know her as a close friend of Nicole's in the two years prior to June 12th, 1994?
A: I remember she was helping Nicole get a--A close friend, no, but I never-- I wouldn't socialize with her, so I don't know. But I would say no, not in the year I was back with her.
I know when Nicole went out, she may have seen her from time to time and I think once even spent the night at Nicole's house, but she wasn't a girl Nicole hung out with, no.
Q: What about Candice Garvey?
A: Never hung out with Candice Garvey.
Q: She wasn't friends with her?
A: You'd see her at church and maybe Candice was a friend of Chris Jenner's, but Candice is not what I would call a friend of Nicole's, no.
Q: What about Chris Jenner?
A: Yes.
Q: Was she a close friend of Nicole 's?
A: A friend, yes.
Q: A close friend?
A: A friend, I would say.
Q: Okay. So the best of your knowledge, Cici Shahian was not a close friend of Nicole's?
A: No. She was around. I guess when Cici was around Nicole, Nicole wasn't with me, and when Nicole and I came back together, I would see Cici around; but I think Nicole, I thought, had a falling-out with her at some point, and then I never saw her around after that.
Q: In fact you indicated that you thought
Nicole had a falling-out with Linda Schulman also?
A: Oh, I know--that's no secret with anybody. Nicole wouldn't talk to her for the last four years.
Q: Four years?
A: Three or four years, whenever my kids-- Sydney was starting school.
Q: Okay.
A: From that point on Nicole did not
speak to Linda Schulman, and hasn't as far as I know, and as far as I'm sure the Browns have told you.
Q: Told me what?
A: That Nicole would not speak to Linda Schulman.
Q: Okay. And as far as you know, Robin Greer wasn't a close friend of Nicole's?
A: No. I think when she went out, Robin was around. I know Nicole mentioned to me in 1994 that; Robin had a relapse or something, a drug relapse, I believe, something to that effect.
Q: And you know Candice Garvey wasn't a close friend.
A: I know that. I know that for a fact. An acquaintance, at best.
Q: And Chris Jenner wasn't a close friend?
A: Chris Jenner was a friend.
Q: Okay. What about Cora Fishman?
A: Her best friend.
Q: Close friend?
A: Nicole's?
Q: Yeah.
A: Her best friend.
Q: Okay. So other than all these people we just discussed, the only close friend you know of of Nicole's was Cora Fishman-
A: Yeah.
Q: - as of June 12th, 1994?
A: And Chris -- Chris, yes, was a friend. I don't know if they went out much, but Chris was a friend. I know she knew Chris longer than any of these people, but they weren't--they were friendly because of Bob and I being friendly in the past. Nicole didn't really socialize with her away from that, and I think Nicole may have socialized with Chris more when Nicole and I split.
Q: Okay. Well, I mean, Nicole was a rather social person, wasn't she?
A: Not with girls, no. That just started recently. She would always have a best friend--and she would always have one best friend and-
Q: Who was her best friend before-It's your testimony Cora was her best friend?
A: During the last four years of her life, Cora was definitely her best friend.
Q: And who was her best friend prior to Cora, if you know?
A: I would think Linda Schulman for a while, for a couple years, and then for about seven or eight years, Suzie Kehoe .
Q: Okay. As of June 12th, 1994, other than Cora Fishman could you tell me any other close friends Nicole had?
A: I would--when I came back into her life, as of June 4, I would say Faye was considered a friend. As I said, when we first got back together, Cici was around. Then all of a sudden I never saw Cici around for probably all of '94. Cora was the one I saw all the time with her.
Q: By the way, you still see Cora all the time, don't you?
A: All the time, no.
Q: Often?
A: Basically when my kids are around.
Q: Okay. Have you taken any family trips with her and her children since October 3rd, 1995?
A: No. Her kids have come with me on trips, yes.
Q: Okay. Cora didn't go along?
A: No. I think she brought her daughter to Santa Barbara once when I was staying with the Steinmans up there, and she brought her daughter up.
Q: Okay. Getting back to what I think was the question I was asking, could you tell me other than Cora any other close friends Nicole had as of June 12th, 1994?
A: I didn't know who she was hanging out with, so I can't tell you other --I would see her with Cora. Obviously Faye and Christian when we went out, we'd have dinner with them. Outside of that, I'm sure that, you know, people--when she went out, I know they went out with girls. So since I never saw them out as a group ever, so I have no idea who the girls were, even though I know Robin sometimes was involved. I don't think Chris Jenner was involved in the going out portion.
I think some old friends of ours, Victoria--what's Victoria's--Gordon White's ex-wife--or wife--he's passed--would join them. I think a girl named Marianna, used to go out with
Reggie McKenzie, I saw her a week before, and she said something about her and Nicole were friends again or something.
But, see, I never saw Nicole when she went out, and when she didn't go out, she was with me, and when I was around, the only people I would see would be the Fishmans and sometimes Faye and Christian. And, of course, the Jenners if we--if they went on a trip with us.
Q: And between April of 1993 and May of 1994 when you and Nicole had reconciled, other than the Fishmans or Faye and Christian Reichardt, can you tell me any other couples you socialized with?
A: Say that again. I'm sorry.
Q: Well, during the reconciliation period, April '93 to May of 1994, can you tell me any couples other than the Fishmans and Faye Resnick and Christian Reichardt you used to socialize with?
A: The Jenners.
Q: Anybody other than the Jenners?
A: Couples? None that I can think of right now.
Q: And what about just in general terms, that couple years, say, between '90 and '92 before your initial breakup?
A: The people we socialized with?
Q: Yeah. Just, you know, who you go on vacation with or go out to dinner with or hang with if you were going to hang with other couples.
A: The Schwartzes, Alan Schwartz and his wife . Years previous, Suzie and Billy Kehoe. Bob Kardashian and Chris. Allen Austin and whoever he was dating. Wayne Hughes and his wife. We're going back a number of years for that one.
Q: Right. That's okay.
A: And then, you know, her family. Nicole's family was around a lot, especially when we were dating.
Q: They were close, weren't they?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. The other day when you indicated that a couple of Nicole's closest friends, I think one you had mentioned, Susan Kehoe?
A: Suzie Kehoe, yes.
Q: Suzie Kehoe. And that was generally before 1992, was it not?
A: Well, I saw Suzie--when Nicole and I got back, I saw Suzie. It was the first time I had seen Suzie in a while, but they were best friends probably our first eight years or so together. Then
Suzie moved, so that kinda changed, and I think they were just seeing each other sporadically after that
Q: Okay. So they weren't close friends as you knew it, say, in June of 1994?
A: See, I disagree with you. You know, because I rarely saw A.C, but he's still considered my best friend. So I would think that they were still close even though they didn't see each other a lot.
Q: So they didn't--I will rephrase my question, Mr. Simpson. As far as you knew, Nicole didn't spend much time with Suzie Kehoe in, say, 1993 and 1994?
A: Correct.
Q: And as far as Pam Schwartz went, as far as you know, Nicole didn't spend much time with Pam Schwartz in 1993 and 1994?
A: As much as she always did, you know, which was, you know, when the kids were doing something, you know, but I don't think Pam went out with the girls. And I never saw them when they were out, so I can't tell you who was with them when they went out.
Q: Mr. Simpson, this will all be regarding June of 1994 now. I am just going to ask you some questions about phones and phone numbers.
A: Okay.
Q: Could you tell me what the phone number was or phone numbers were at your Rockingham residence?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Was it [Deleted]?
A: That sounds right.
Q: Okay. And I am going to ask all these as of June 12th, 1994. Does that sound right?
A: That sounds right.
Q: Did you have more than one number at that time?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Do you know whether you had rollover capability at that number?
A: I may have, but I don't know.
Q: Okay. Did you have any outside phones at your Rockingham residence?
A: What do you mean?
Q: Well, did you have a phone jack, say, at your cabana?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you have a phone jack near your tennis court?
A: Well, the cabana and the tennis court are together.
Q: Okay. Did you have a phone jack on any outside terraces?
A: No.
Q: With Simpson Enterprises, do you recall the phone number there?
A: I think it was [Deleted].
Q: Could you tell me what number, was [Deleted]?
A: Say it again.
Q: Area code [Deleted]?
A: No.
Q: And what was the Simpson Enterprises number again?
A: [Deleted].
Q: And was there a cellular phone listed to Simpson Enterprises?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall that number?
A: No.
Q: Would it have been area code [Deleted]?
A: Doesn't sound like my phone, no.
Q: There was a cellular phone registered to
Simpson Enterprises, though?
A: I don't know. I don't know what my phone was registered to.
Q: But there was a cellular phone that you used or had access to other than the one you always carried with you and had with you in Chicago on June 13th, was there not?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Does this phone number, and I will state again, mean anything to you at this time as you sit there: Area code 213-712 8836?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And do you know whether Cathy Randa had a cellular phone?
A: She did. I mean she had a car phone.
Q: Okay. Do you know the number now?
A: No, I don't recall it now, but don't think that was it.
Q: No? Okay. And your cellular phone was [Deleted]?
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. Now, when you got to O'Hare Airport on the morning of June 13, 1994, did you make any calls from a pay phone there?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: And did Arnelle have a separate phone number where she stayed at Rockingham?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And did Kato have a separate number where he stayed at Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: You've testified earlier as to a number of calls you either made or received when you were at the Plaza Hotel the morning of June 12th, 1994. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me when you made your first phone call after leaving your room in the Plaza Hotel?
A: I believe it was when I was down stairs looking or waiting for a cab and when waiting for the Hertz guy to arrive.
Q: That's Merrill from Hertz?
A: Pardon me?
Q: Merrill?
A: Yes. I believe so.
Q: Is he the one who took you to the airport, by the way?
A: No.
Q: Okay. He never arrived, did he?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever speak to him?
A: The next day.
Q: Okay. But not on the 13th?
A: Well, I spoke to him a number of times on the 13th. Yeah, a number of times.
Q: Before you left the Plaza?
A: Before I left my room, yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall who you called on your first cellular call after you left your hotel room?
A: No. May have been Merrill, but I don't really recall.
Q: Okay. And you just took a regular cab to the airport from the Plaza?
THE WITNESS: Didn't we talk about this?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We've been over this in detail.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Yeah.
MR. KELLY: I am leaving that. I am just-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Just answer that question.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you talk to anybody other than Denise Brown when you called her that morning?
A: The first call?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: By the way, did you as of June 17, 1994 have a safety deposit box?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there anybody other than you who had access to that?
A: Maybe Skip Taft.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me what you kept in there?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you keep any currency in there?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to tell him that.
MR. KELLY: You instruct him not to answer?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: Do you know how many times you called Kato before you left Chicago on the 13th?
A: I don't know if I did call Kato before I left, but I wouldn't know how many times. I know I
never got him.
Q: Okay. Do you know how many times, approximately, you called Cathy Randa before you arrived back in Los Angeles?
A: No. I know I kept trying and kept getting disconnected or machines or stuff, but no.
Q: Did you ever have any conversations with her before you got back to Los Angeles?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: More than one?
A: I believe so.
Q: Would it be fair to say you talked to her for approximately 20 minutes total?
A: Could have been. It could have been. I don't know.
Q: Okay. And you made a number of phone calls to Skip Taft?
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say that you spoke to him for approximately 20 minutes total before you got back to L.A.?
A: You know, I don't know.
Q: But you spoke to him more than once?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Okay. Now, do you know where Jonah
Wilson's office is located?
A: I didn't know he had an office.
Q: Okay. Do you know where his home is located?
A: No
Q: Do you know--Do you remember calling him the morning of June 13th from your American Airlines flight?
A: No.
Q: No-
A: Wherever Arnelle was, I know I was looking for Arnelle and-
Q: Okay. Did you find Arnelle?
A: I think I did, but I just don't recall. I know I talked to her earlier. You know, I talked to her when I found out. I think I talked to her one time after that, but I just don't recall.
Q: Okay. Do you know any reason why you would have had two approximately five-minute phone calls with Jonah Wilson for any reason?
A: If I talked to him for five minutes, it would have been Arnelle or seeing that he would take care of Arnelle, because Arnelle was in a bad way, but I don't recall having a five-minute phone call with Jonah, no.
Q: Do you remember having a five minute-- one or more five-minute phone calls with Arnelle?
A: I don't recall.
Q: And therefore you recall none of the details of any conversation you had with her?
A: I'm sure it was all about how she was feeling and how I was feeling and the kids. If we spoke, that would have been the topic.
Q: Okay. So you wouldn't have discussed anything about June 12th, 1994, the evening, would you?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You wouldn't have discussed anything about what the police may have been doing at your house at Rockingham in those discussions either, would you?
A: I don't think so, but if the police were there, I may have--I may have asked, but I don't think so.
Q: Okay. Did you ever actually speak to Marcus Allen when you were on your flight coming back to Los Angeles?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you speak to someone at his house?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You never spoke to Howard Weitzman before you got back to the Rockingham residence on June 13th, did you?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You just answer that yes or no.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY
Q: Okay. Was Howard Weitzman at your residence at Rockingham when you arrived home on June 13th, 1994?
A: At some point when I was home, I saw Howard, yes.
Q: Okay. And was Howard Weitzman the attorney who had represented you after the New Year's Day 1989 incident?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. I think you indicated earlier, with the phone calls you made on the way back to L A., you were trying to get people to get by Bundy and Rockingham and help out. Is that correct?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall making any calls to any friend of Nicole's between the time you left the Plaza Hotel in Chicago and you arrived back to Rockingham
that afternoon?
A: Yes.
Q: And who was that?
A: My daughter, A.C, Skip, Marcus Allen, the people I called.
Q: Okay. Did you make any calls to Paula Barbieri?
A: I may have, but I don't think so.
Q: Okay. Do you recall ever speaking to her?
A: I didn't.
Q: Could you tell me the subject matter of the conversations you had with Cathy Randa when you got her on the phone before getting back to Los Angeles?
A: Getting back to L.A.
Q: Just the arrangements about getting you back?
A: Yeah. And I may--we may have commiserated. We may have commiserated.
Q: Anything other than that?
A: No.
Q: Did you call any neighbors of Nicole's before you got back to Rockingham that day?
A: I don't know any of her neighbors.
Q: Okay. Did you give any detective or anybody the Browns' phone number when you spoke to them?
A: I may have. If they asked, I would have given it to them.
Q: Okay. Mr. Simpson, do-- do-does the number area code [Deleted] mean anything to you as of June 13th, 1994?
A: Say it again.
MR. LEONARD: Can you repeat the number?
MR. KELLY: [Deleted]
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Do you recall dialing that number at any time on the 13th?
A: I don't recall, no.
Q: Okay. Does the number area code [Deleted] mean anything to you as of June 13th, 1994?
A: [Deleted]
Q: [Deleted]
A: No.
Q: ---[Deleted]
A: No.
Q: Okay. And you at this time as of
June 13th, 1994, had no idea who had the Simpson Enterprises cellular phone?
A: If mine was under Simpson Enterprises, it would have been my phone.
(Peter Gelblum enters the deposition.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. But you didn't have more than one cellular phone with you, did you?
A: No.
Q: Okay.
A: And as I said, Cathy had a phone, but it was a car phone.
Q: Do you know what the number was of that car?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Was it in the name of Simpson Enterprises, the car phone?
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You've already asked that question, Dan. You didn't miss it.
MR. PETROCELLI: I didn't think so. I was starting to worry, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't be concerned.
MR. PETROCELLI: Because thought I had redefined tedium
MR. KELLY: See, these guys are shopping for a sound bite on tedium today when they're out of the loop.
MR. PETROCELLI: John, the truth is in the details, but keep going.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Somebody said that even before you did.
MR. PETROCELLI: You did?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. I said "Somebody said that even before you did." He was a philosopher, I thought.
MR. PETROCELLI: I thought I made it up.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What about the number with area code [Deleted].
A: I don't know.
Q: By the way, did you have a little phone book or something with you on that flight coming back from Chicago?
A: I had my phone book, I believe, yes.
Q: Okay. Where is that phone book now, if you know?
A: I think LAPD has it.
Q: Okay. Who is Stuart Blasnick?
A: I don't know.
Q: Never heard of him.
A: No.
Q: Okay. Just take one minute.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Gonna wrap it up before lunch, huh?
MR. KELLY: What, about these phone calls? I'll try to.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: About everything maybe.
MR. KELLY: Baker, I wouldn't want you to have free time on your hands.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That may be truer than you know.
MR. KELLY: My mind is wandering already.
THE WITNESS: Isn't Stuart Blasnick the guy running against Garcetti? I think that's who that is.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Who? Stuart Blasnick?
A: Yeah.
Q: Who is it? I'm sorry.
A: The guy running against Garcetti? Isn't that--
Q: Probably. Probably be the first call you made. Did you have occasion to go to your office the night of the 13th?
A: No. Oh, the night--no.
Q: The night of the 14th?
A: The day of the 14th.-
Q: Day of the 14th. Did you make any calls from there when you were there that day?
A: Did I make any?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: And on the 13th you were not in your office at all?
A: 13th, yes.
Q: In the evening?
A: Yeah, I guess early afternoon.
Q: Do you recall being there at about a quarter of 7:00 that evening?
A: No.
Q: Did you give anybody access to that office?
A: Whoever always have access to it.
Q: And who is that? Cathy?
A: Cathy, the cleaning crew, what ever.
Q: Okay. And the number [Deleted] means nothing to you?
A: Nothing to me, no. Could be
Cathy's
mother. I don't know. That's a guess, though.
Q: Okay. Mr. Simpson, Nicole left you on January 6, 1992. Is that correct?
A: She asked for a separation then, yes.
Q: Okay. Prior to January 6th, 1992 would you talk to her mother, Judy Brown, on a regular basis?
A: Semi-regular. Not a hell of a lot, but yes, I talked to her, yes.
Q: Okay. Would you call her of your own initiative on occasion prior to January 6th, 1994 (sic)?
A: Yes.
Q: Would that happen more than once a month?
A: I don't know. It depends what was going on with Nicole and I.
Q: Okay. Do you recall after January 6th, 1992, you began to call her more frequently?
A: All the time.
Q: You'd call her all the time?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. I mean, there were days when you would speak to her every day, would you not?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Days when he would speak to her every day? That's pretty good. That's a Kelly
question.
MR. KELLY: I hope it's a sound bite. I mean, I've been polishing that up for a couple days now.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You want to rephrase that?
MR. KELLY: Yes, I will, Mr. Baker.
Q: Did you speak to her almost every day between January 6th, 1992 and between October 992 when your divorce became final?
A: No, but if you shorten that period, I spoke to her a heck of a lot and more than one time a n day till about May or June, and then it curtailed.
Q: Okay. And were there some times that you called Judy Brown three or four times a day?
A: As I said, sometimes I called her often during the day, yes.
Q: Okay. Were there ever occasions you may have called her even 10 times a day?
A: I don't think so, but I talked to her often, yes.
Q: Okay. And would you call there ever to discuss Nicole with her?
A: The majority of the time.
Q: Okay. Were there ever times you called there looking for Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Never?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Were there ever times you called her to speak to Nicole?
A: I can't say never. I called there looking for my kids once when I was in Houston, I believe, when I was in Houston, I believe, but, you know, I was talking to Nicole, so I -- pretty much whenever I called, if Nicole was around and the kids were around, I talked to her. If it was a weekend and I called, if I was on the road and I called home and they weren't there, I'd call Laguna to see if they were in Laguna, yes.
Q: Okay. But there was never a time you called the Browns' residence to speak to Nicole other than when it concerned the kids?
A: Yeah. Yeah. If they were not around for a weekend and I was out of town and I called and they weren't at her house, sometimes she would leave a message she was in Laguna, and I would call Judy. Sometimes they didn't leave a message. But if I called a day or two and couldn't get her at her house, I'd see if they were in Laguna.
Q: Okay. Did you ever call Judy wanting to know where Nicole was?
A: On a weekend or so, yes.
Q: Yeah.
A: Yeah.
Q: And did you ever call Judy wanting to know whether Nicole was out with her friends dancing or partying at all?
A: No.
Q: And you never called to ask Judy if Nicole was out doing anything in particular in the evenings?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you ever-
A: Nicole wasn't in Laguna too often. I think she was in Laguna during the summer maybe, and by then her and I had gone--totally gone our separate ways.
Q: Okay. But prior to that you never recall calling down there and looking for Nicole when she was out?
A: No. Looking for the kids or her if they were in Laguna, but not looking for her if she was out, no.
Q: And not looking to see what she was doing?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you remember calling Judy Brown during the same time period, January to, say, June of 992, from your cellular phone?
A: Oh, I'm sure I did, yes.
Q: And would that be the cellular phone you'd have in the car with you also?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall ever calling Judy Brown from outside Nicole's house on Gretna Green when you were in the car?
A: I believe I've talked to her numerous times going to or coming from Nicole's house, so there may have been a time or two that I was arriving at Nicole's house and we're cutting off the conversation or I had just left Nicole's house, so that could have happened, yes.
Q: Were there ever times you went to Nicole's house and never even went to the door and parked out front and called Judy Brown?
A: No.
Q: Never happened?
A: Never happened.
Q: Okay. Would you be able to approximate the number of times you called Judy Brown between January 6, 1994 and, say, mid June 1994?
A: No. It would be a lot, but I couldn't approximate it, no.
Q: Would it be fair to say it would be more than a hundred?
A: I don't know.
Q: Now, we're talking a six-month period.
A: I don't know.
Q: Would it be fair to say it was more than several hundred phone calls?
A: I don't know.
Q: I am sorry. 1992.
A: We're talking '92, yes.
Q: Yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI: The question was '94.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I know I talked to Judy a lot. She was-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: All right. Let's go back. Let's go back.
THE WITNESS: All of this is
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Wait a minute, Juice. Let's go back. He asked you 1994. Mr. Petrocelli said 1992. You said 1992. Why don't we go back and redo these questions and get a straight answer or get what his recollection was if he has one.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: We've been talking about this time period where you made a lot of phone calls to Judy Brown. Correct?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And was this the period between January 6, 1992 and June 1992?
A: Yeah, roughly in that period, yes.
Q: Okay. And after the conversation we just had about going to or leaving Gretna Green and calling her on the cellular phone, we are talking about the same period in 1992. Is that correct?
A: Yeah. Quite often, if I left my office or if I was going to Nicole's, I'd talk to Judy, and, you know, because I had arrived, I would cut the conversation off or vice versa.
Q: Okay. After June of 1992 did you continue to call Judy Brown at all?
A: Occasionally. You know, I was still going through the divorce and a couple of things came up from time to time, and I would talk to her occasionally, yes.
Q: Would you call her concerning Nicole?
A: Well, at that point I didn't want to get back with Nicole; we had kind of moved on. But, you know, you get used to talking to somebody. You talk a lot of times. It was about what was going on in the Browns' family or in my family, and obviously Nicole would come up from time to time in those conversations.
Q: That wasn't the purpose of the phone calls?
A: No. It was just-- it was almost habit at that point in time. But then. as I said, after June it kind of cut back because I was in another relationship.
Q: And did you have a speed dial apparatus on your cellular phone?
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay. What about your home phone?
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay. Between June of 1992 and March of 1993, did you ever call Judy Brown looking for Nicole?
A: June? When I came back from-I don't know. Maybe if I--maybe in August, you know. I mean, I'm always looking for the kids. When you say, "looking for Nicole," you make it looking for Nicole.
Q: Right.
A: Nicole was always with my kids, so I would be looking for my kids. So there is a possibility that during the summer-that fall I was at the Olympics. I don't know if I Called Judy from the Olympics at some point because I couldn't get Nicole, to find out where they were. I mean, there could have been a time or so I may have called saying, "Is Nicole or the kids around?" There could have been. Yeah, that could have happened.
Q: Okay. Between January and June of 1992 do you remember calling the Browns and speaking to Lou Brown at all concerning Nicole?
A: Not much, no. I mean, if Lou answered the phone, we did our pleasantries and--but basically I talked to Judy.
Q: Okay. Not Denise?
A: Not Denise, no. On--one conversation I had with Denise once, but basically it was with Judy.
Q: When was that?
A: It was when I had gotten word from my lawyers that there may be some allegations of abuse or battery. This was during the point that they were trying to get rid of my prenuptial agreement.
Q: Okay. And you called Denise specifically?
A: I talked to Judy, and I wanted to speak
to Denise, and then Denise came on the phone.
Q: And did you speak to her?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you recall the substance of the conversation?
A: Yes.
Q: What was that?
A: I mentioned to Denise that Nicole might have been--might have been claiming that we had--I think it's a conversation Nicole and I had--I don't recall--about what Denise eventually changed her story on the stand and said I pushed Nicole out of a door in '92, but at this particular time Denise--her recollection was that it was Nicole that was the physical one and I didn't do anything. That was her recollection at that time . So it was a little different than it turned out to be.
Q: Was this the--I assume this was the incident in the early '80s you spoke of earlier where you got home with Denise, Ed McCabe and Nicole-
A: Yes.
Q: --to your residence at Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you say Nicole was "physical," what did she do that night when you got back to
Rockingham?
A: At some point while I was at the staircase she was hitting me, and I grabbed the banister and I said, "Denise, your sister's getting physical? So I just held the banister with my back to her (Indicating).
Q: Okay. I think you had mentioned earlier something about pictures or-
A: Yeah. Yeah. Then at the bottom of the stairs she slung off the pictures (Indicating), yeah.
Q: You showed the back of your hand. They were on a table?
A: Well, it may have been--I don't know how she did it. I'm just--she just knocked off the pictures that were on the table, yes.
Q: Was that after she had been hitting you when you were on the staircase?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did you do something in--She was sort of wrecking the house, wasn't she, Nicole?
A: No. It was the entry. She broke some pictures. She may have--she broke some pictures at the--I don't know if she broke--she threw them down. Maybe a frame there cracked or something.
Q: In your mind, was Nicole out of control at that point?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you get any closer to him, Mr. Petrocelli, people will start talking.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. KELLY: I'll be very sick if he gets any closer, the way he 's hacking away.
MR. PETROCELLI: I cannot shake this thing. I went to the doctor's last night, too. He said I'm on the road to recovery.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: And you just don't think you are. Shall we break for lunch? What do you want to do? Do you want to go ahead? Whatever you want to do.
MR. KELLY: That's okay.
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, we'll break.
MR. KELLY: Mr. Baker looks hungry.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I am hungry as a matter of fact.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. I of Volume IX. The time is approximately 12:08, and we are off the record.
(At the hour of 12:08 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:08 p.m.)
(At the hour of 5 p.m., the deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present exception of Peter Gelblum.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 1:15. It is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume IX.
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Simpson, I believe right before we broke for lunch we were discussing an incident at Rockingham in the early '80s where I think you had indicated Nicole was a little bit out of control in your house after you had gotten home one night with Denise Brown, Ed McCabe, yourself and Nicole. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And I think you indicated at one point you were holding on to the stair railing and she was hitting you?
A: Yes.
Q: And was it after that she went and did something with the photographs?
A: Yeah, as we got to the bottom of the stairs.
Q: What did she do?
A: Just knocked them off the table that was there.
Q: Okay. Was she yelling or anything at that point?
A: She may have been. I don't recall.
Q: Okay. And where were Denise and Ed McCabe at this point?
A: I think Ed was standing in the doorway, and Denise was standing-she was inside the house. I know that. But we were all in the same area.
Q: And you didn't hit Nicole at that time, did you?
A: No. No.
Q: You didn't push her or put her in a headlock?
A: No. I grabbed her arms at the door and put her outside the door.
Q: Okay. How close was she to the door when you put her outside the door?
A: We were just in my entry, so three. four feet maybe.
Q: Okay. You had no problem with just taking her by the shoulders and putting her outside the front door?
A: None.
Q: Okay. She didn't push her war back inside?
A: No.
Q: She didn't wrestle out of grip?
A: No.
Q: Didn't get away?
A: Get away?
Q: She didn't try to come back in, did she?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Now, going to Mother's Day of 1994, do you remember if any time after that date you called Judy Brown?
A: No.
Q: You don't know?
A: I don't know, no.
Q: Okay. Do you know at any time after May 22nd you called Judy Brown?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall having any telephonic discussions with Judy Brown in May of 1994?
A: I know I did the early part of May when Nicole and I split because I was real concerned, and I may have talked to Judy about the pneumonia. I may have. I really don't recall, but I may have .
Q: Well, when you say you talked to her about the split, do you remember the substance of that conversation at all?
A: I was concerned about whatever was going on in Nicole's life.
Q: Okay. This would have been after Mother's Day then?
A: I believe so.
Q: Do you recall whether it was a long conversation or relatively brief?
A: I don't recall. It could have been long, though. I mean, we talked-Judy had a lot of concerns, too, and when Judy and I talked, you know, the substance may have started about Nicole, but then you end up talking about family and kids and everything.You know, you end up just having family conversation.
Q: Okay. Is it your impression she likes to talk a lot?
A: Yeah. I'm sure you've found that out.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: OJ. doesn't, though.
MR. KELLY: I know. I was going to say. She found a good listener. Right?
THE WITNESS: Judy's a conversationalist. She's very social verbally, and so am I.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Regarding Faye Resnick, do you recall whether you used any names other than your own when you called her house to speak to her?
A: No.
Q: When someone else would answer the phone, you never used any code names or anything?
A: Only other person that lived with her was Christian, and if I called to speak to Christian, it was me, yeah.
Q: Any children in the house?
A: She has a little girl.
Q: Do you know how old she is?
A: Sydney's age, I believe, so she may be around 10.
Q: Do you know whether or not she --Faye's
little girl was friends with Sydney?
A: When I say "friends," you know, if Nicole and Faye were together, then she would be around. She wasn't one of the--it was--you know, I rarely saw her unless Faye was around. She wasn't someone who-- Sydney and her would play together all the time. She as a girl that was around if Faye was around. At least when I was around.
Q: So Faye's daughter was more or less incidental to the friendship between Faye and Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: On the other hand, with regard to Cora and Nicole, Sydney and Cora's daughters were very good friends?
A: Very good friends, yeah.
Q: Okay. In 1994, in fact we'll say May 1994, did you ever call Faye Resnick to discuss Nicole?
A: In May?
Q: May.
A: I don't recall. I know Faye had a few conversations with me telling me that Nicole was in love with me, and I was back with Paula. That came up few times. I know-
Q: Do you know when that was? I' m sorry.
A: I don't know. I don't recall.
Q: Well, in April 199--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Did you get that, David? Did you get the conversation of Mr. Petrocelli kind of coaching-
MR. PETROCELLI: I'm not coaching.
MR. KELLY: Hardly coaching, Mr. Baker, although you'd like the record to reflect, perhaps. Hardly coaching.
Q: Do you recall getting any--making any calls in April 1994 to Faye Resnick-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Sensitive there, aren't you, John?
MR. KELLY: Very.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I apologize. He wasn't coaching you.
MR. KELLY: Thank you. I feel much better.
Q: In April 1994 do you recall making any calls to Faye Resnick to discuss Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know on how many occasions?
A: No.
Q: And do you recall where you were when you called her?
A: Probably in my hotel room.
Q: In Puerto Rico?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know whether you called her more than once?
A: Yes, more than once.
Q: Do you know whether you called her more than twice?
A: The problem being sometimes I would call to talk to Christian, and Faye and I would end up talking or begin talking if she answered the phone.
Q: Do you know how many-
A: But I know--I'm sorry.
Q: Well, how long were you in Puerto Rico for in April '94?
A: A month.
Q: Okay.
A: Roughly.
Q: Do you know how many times you called Christian from there?
A: If I called--I don't know.
Q: Well, combining Faye and Christian together, do you know how many times in the month of April you called that residence where Faye and Christian were at?
A: No.
Q: Was it more than five times?
A: It would have been I would think at least five times. Especially in one particular week maybe at least five times.
Q: Well, you think there was one particular week you called there at least five times in that week?
A: Yes.
Q: What week was that?
A: My second week in Puerto Rico.
Q: And is there any particular reason you remember those calls in that week?
A: Yes.
Q: And what's that?
A: Because Nicole was saying she was having a nervous breakdown and she couldn't explain why, and I was trying to find out from her friends why, what was going on.
Q: And do you recall what you discussed with Faye about that?
A: Just what was going on.
Q: And what did Faye tell you?
A: In the beginning she said nothing, that Nicole was so happy; she had spent a great weekend with me before we left and that she was looking forward to coming to--meeting me in Miami. Then it went to Cora. Mostly Faye was blaming Cora for--she was saying, "Cora's driving us all crazy," and basically, you know-- or, "I'll talk to Nicole." And I said, "Well, see what's happening, because I could tell something's going on, something's wrong with Nicole." And she would say, "I'll find out or "I'll call you back. "I think she might have left me a message once or twice to call. Essentially that was it."
Q: Did you ever find out what, if anything, in particular was causing Nicole to have this nervous breakdown?
A: Nicole just said it was pressure. That's what she--when Nicole at one point called and apologized to me right before I came home and wanted to pick me up at the airport, and after I got home I wanted to-well, I forced the issue, and she never could explain it. She just said sometimes she just felt she was--you know, maybe this thirties thing. It was something we had talked about from time to time, and she never could explain it, but she was aware that she--because she apologized to me about the way she was acting, and she could never--that's why I was trying to get her to go to therapy again, because she could never explain it.
Q: What about Faye? Did she ever get back to you with an explanation?
A: Faye, as I said, continually blamed Cora. Continually blamed Cora.
Q: And in what sense?
A: That the problems Cora was having with her husband, and Cora was doing this and Ron was calling, and Nicole was, you know, you know, involved in whatever was going on with the two of them, trying to help Ron, trying to help Cora, and, you know, she was blaming everything on Cora.
Q: Was it your understanding that certain things Cora was doing was causing Nicole a lot of anxiety?
A: I couldn't believe that. I mean, it don't make sense to me.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: OJ., listen to the question. Answer the question and no more than that.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What hotel were you staying at in Puerto
Rico, by the way?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall what city it was in?
A: San Juan.
Q: Do you recall what street or anything?
A: No.
Q: Did anybody ever call you from-Strike that question. Now, you indicated you had made at least five calls to Faye during one particular week.
A: Could have been-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Five to the house where Christian and Faye resided, or the place.
THE WITNESS: YES. YES.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. In addition to those five phone calls, do you remember any additional calls being made to that house?
A: No. I'd say, yeah, around that amount of time, but I can't tell you. I don't know.
Q: Now, other than those five phone calls that one week, do you remember calling there any other times?
A: It may not have been one week. It may have been over--yeah, a little over or a little less
than a week, but I just know that one week it was very active going back and forth, calling both ways.
Q: Those are the only phone calls you recall to that house during your period in Puerto Rico?
A: You know, as I said. Christian and I were doing some stuff with--for the Playboy thing. He was having a thing made, and, you know, I talked to him a few times. So, you know, there were--I don't know. I don't recall.
Q: When you were in Puerto Rico, did you ever call Cora Fishman?
A: I called Ron Fishman a few times. I don't--I can't recall if I ever talked to Cora Fishman.
Q: And you indicated that in the second week in April that Nicole was-
A: Was my second week down there. I don't know if it was the second week in April, but it was my second week in Puerto Rico.
Q: Okay. And she was having something like a nervous breakdown, she indicated to you.
A: That's what she said. But she was acting like it.
Q: Okay. And Cora Fishman was her best friend at this time?
A: Yes.
Q: And you made several phone calls to the Resnick-Reichardt residence?
A: Correct.
Q: And you recall no phone conversations with Cora?
A: No. I know I talked to Ron quite a bit because I was just trying to be a friend to him.
Q: But Ron wasn't friends with Nicole, was he?
A: Yes.
Q: Close friends?
A: Yes. But I wasn't talking to Ron about Nicole.
Q: Okay. And you weren't talking to Cora about Nicole.
A: I don't think I talked to Cora during this period of time.
Q: Okay. Prior to June 12th, 1994 at any time did you ever call Cora Fishman to discuss Nicole?
A: Ever?
Q: In the year '94 before June 12th.
A: I don't recall. I don't ever recall calling her to discuss Nicole in '94.
Q: Okay. Did you ever call Cora to find out
where she and Nicole might be at a particular time or a particular place they might be going to?
A: No
Q: Did Cora ever call you from any location and indicate to you that she and Nicole were at a certain place?
A: No.
Q: With New Year's Day 1989, I think you indicated earlier the police didn't see fit to take Nicole to the hospital that morning when they came by?
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You've already asked him about this.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Nicole see fit to go to the hospital that morning?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's already been gone into.
MR. KELLY: Not by me, Mr. Baker. I just want to ask a couple of questions.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: All right, go ahead.
Q: Did Nicole see fit to go to the hospital?
A: No.
Q: Well, did she go to the hospital?
A: I insisted, and A.C took her.
Q: She didn't want to go to the hospital?
A: No.
Q: To the best of your knowledge, did she ever make a phone call to anybody before she went to the hospital that morning?
A: The best of my knowledge, no.
Q: Okay. And did A.C see fit to take her to the hospital?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you certainly did.
A: Pardon me?
Q: You saw fit to have her go to the hospital.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. But you didn't know whether it was for a hangover or something?
A: She said her--she was looking for aspirin, and being an athlete, you know, whenever somebody have a headache after a game or something for whatever reason, you're very cautious about that. Just the way I've always been.
Q: In any particular sport or just any sport when you have a headache?
A: Any sport. I mean, even my kids. If my kids had an accident, and, you know, we wouldn't let them sleep. We try to keep them awake. If they said their head hurt in any way, shape or form, that's just something that you do.
Q: So you're talking about a concussion-type situation, are you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. So we are talking about contact incidences, are we not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And it was your concern about contact and concussions that caused you to be concerned about Nicole's headache, was it not?
A: The fact that she said she had a headache, and we had had a confrontation, and she was talking about having a headache, so I wanted her to be looked at.
Q: Okay. By the way, did you notice her having any difficulty speaking when she said she was looking for aspirin?
A: No. We--it was very emotional, so, you know, Nicole when she got emotional didn't speak clearly. She just spoke emotionally. So she was very emotional when she was--during this.
Q: Did she say anything about her jaw?
A: No. I think you also indicated in April of '94 when you were in Puerto Rico you spoke to Judy--
A: Yes.
Q: --Brown?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall how many times?
A: During the week of when she was supposed to be coming to meet me in Miami, we must have talked at least two or three times.
Q: And were those calls you made to Judy?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And do you remember the substance of those conversations?
A: The first call was, "Did Nicole get her reservations? Did you get the reservations?" And I can't recall if they went to Laguna that weekend or not. I'm not real sure. But the first call was about the reservations. The second time she didn't, but Judy was-didn't want to bring it up. And--
Q: Bring what up? I'm sorry.
A: Bring up to Nicole about making the reservations, because Nicole was supposed to have made the reservations, or I was trying to bring business to Judy. So I could have made them from where I was, but I was trying to get Judy to get some business, which
I've done over the years. And as the week went on, it was a little concern about Nicole. Judy had the same concerns that I had.
Q: What were those concerns?
A: That Nicole was somewhat erratic in the way she acted. And Judy mentioned how I guess Thursday or Friday when I spoke to her, how she was concerned that Nicole had--was putting words in her mouth from the previous conversation that day before that they had had, and it was kind of a concern to Judy.
Q: Did Judy actually indicate to you that she thought Nicole was acting erratic?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. I think you also indicated Judy was otherwise evasive about discussing Nicole?
A: No, no. Judy was evasive--she- about--it was a funny thing in the family, that everybody's afraid to-Judy would say she was afraid to confront Nicole. So it became a thing where everybody would talk about Nicole, but they were all afraid to confront her with whatever their concerns were.
Q: Did Judy ever express to you what she thought or what her concerns were, what Judy's concerns were?
A: Overall?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes.
Q: What was that?
A: She didn't like the people Nicole was hanging around.
Q: And that was Judy's main concern with Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: And she told you that?
A: Yes. On numerous occasions.
Q: Okay. Did you ever indicate to any of your friends or to anybody prior to Mother's Day 1994 that you were going to stop seeing Nicole again?
A: I think I was consistent in--I think I was consistent in that I thought it was a lot of work and consistent in I didn't think it would work. But in Puerto Rico I was not with any friends, and when I came back from Puerto Rico I spent that first week mostly with Nicole. So I really wasn't around, you know, what I would call friends that I confide in.
Q: Well, when you say you were consistent with the fact that it wasn't going to work-
A: Until I went to Puerto Rico. And as I
said, when I was in Puerto Rico, I really didn't talk to my friends.
Q: Okay. When you say you were consistent-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He said consistent it was a lot of work, I thought.
THE WITNESS: That it was a lot of work.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Not that it wasn't going to work.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, that it was a lot of work. That this, you know, this getting back together thing was a lot of work.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you ever express that to any of your close friends-
A: Yeah.
Q:--during early '94?
A: Yes.
Q: To whom?
A: I'm sure Allen Austin. I'm sure A.C. I'm sure Arnelle, Jason, Michelle, Cathy, Skip, yeah.
Q: But you never expressed to them that you were actually going to break it off with Nicole-
A: Well--
Q: --before you did.
A: Well, when it happened, it happened. It wasn't like something that you went three weeks discussing or thinking about. We had a conversation. It happened.
Q: Okay. I think you said generally you usually go to bed early. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: 8:00, 8:30?
A: Generally, yes.
Q: Okay. On June 10th, 1994 do you recall what time you got back to L A.?
A: I'm gonna guess.
Q: Okay.
A 7:00, 8:00 o'clock.
Q: Okay. Did you go out at all with Paula then after she picked you up?
A: I can't remember we--when she picked me up if we went directly and had sushi and then went to I believe my house or if we ate at my house, if Michelle--I mean Gigi wasn't there. We may have gone directly from the airport to have sushi.
Q: Okay.
A: I didn't eat on the plane. I rarely eat on the plane.
Q: Do you know what time you got home that
night, approximately?
A: Whatever time it took to eat sushi and got home.
Q: Was it before 10:00?
A: I would think so.
Q: Okay. So it would be safe to say you were up till at least 10:00 o'clock Friday night?
A: I can't say at least 10:00. Whatever time I got off the plane, I think we-you know, I had been out of town all week. We ate and then went home and went to--you know, got in bed.
Q: Okay. And Saturday night you went to a formal affair?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you know what time you got home that night?
A: Oh, probably about 11 :00.
Q: Okay. And Sunday night you were
A: Yeah, I had to stay up to go to-to go to Chicago.
Q: Okay. In June of 1994 or before that, you said you always went to bed early, but you'd get up during the night to make sure the kids were settled and everything?
A: I said generally I go to bed early. I mean if I don't have an affair to go to or something. Every night, including last night, I get up in the middle of the night and walk around my house. Every night.
Q: Back then, and I am talking about May-June 1994, what time would Justin usually go to bed?
A: We tried to put him to bed at 8:30. With Sydney, too?
A: But they, you know--that was the general time we tried, but, you know, hopefully by 9:00 they'd be in bed.
Q: Okay. When you gave your interview to Miss Van Susteren of "Burden of Proof," was anybody with you in the room when you spoke to her?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You also indicated at some point during this deposition that you were scheduled to go to Knotts Berry Farm with the kids sometime in June.
A: I was gonna take them on Father's Day.
Q: Okay. Was that indicated in your calendar?
A: I don't know.
Q: Had you spoken to the kids about
A: Yes. Sydney asked me. She actually wanted to go the Sunday before, and I was taking them to another affair, and then the next Sunday I would have had them would have been the next Sunday--I mean not this Sunday that--because she had that, but the following Sunday.
Q: Now, as of June 1994, you--May 1994, you had been a public figure for about 25 years?
A: Yes.
Q: I believe you never had bought a goatee before that time, had you?
A: I've grown one, but I never bought one, no.
Q: Okay.
A: I didn't realize it was a goatee in this bag either until you guys started saying that. I didn't realize there was a goatee in there.
Q: What did you think it was?
A: A beard.
Q: Okay. And mustache?
A: A mustache and beard, yes.
Q: Okay. You had never bought something like that prior to late May of 1994, had you?
A: Yes, but not to go to Knotts Berry Farm, no.
Q: When had you bought something like that for?
A: Maybe a Halloween or two, and then some--often when I'm on a set I may--in the past I've taken one once or twice in my life and would wear home what Sydney and Arnelle and Jason--and come home looking like another person, you know, just tease the kids.
Q: Okay. But you never purchased something like that to wear in public, did you?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And you hadn't played pro football in what, about 15 years?
A: Yes.
Q: And your Hertz airport commercial where you're jumping over the suitcases running down the hall, that wasn't airing anymore, was it?
A: No.
Q: In fact, do you know when that had gone off the air?
A: I don't think I ran through an airport for Hertz since the mid to late '70s. I've been in many Hertz commercials since then, though.
Q: Okay. And I think you also indicated in June of 1994 you weren't doing any actual broadcasting for NBC, were you?
A: Not in June. I had during the football season, but in June, that month, no.
Q: Okay. In fact you hadn't since maybe January?
A: Yes.
Q: After Super Bowl?
A: Yes.
Q: And would it be fair to say that anybody under 14 had never even been born by the time you finished playing pro football?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You can do the math.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. KELLY: I know, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Good. Then don't ask him-- waste our time asking those kind of stupid questions. I'm trying to give you a sound bite.
MR. KELLY: I think you've been good at the sound bites, Mr. Baker. I could use stupid in another context
MR. ROBERT BAKER: All right.
MR. KELLY:--but I won't take the bait.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay.
MR. PETROCELLI: Doesn't rise to the level of your wonderful compliment to Mr. Brewer.
MR. BREWER: You are going to have to step it
up today.
MR. KELLY: Your uncharacteristic patience is not lending itself well to this.
MR. PETROCELLI: I can't tell you how slighted I've been feeling, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Not to worry. I'm an equal opportunity-
MR. KELLY: Insulter.
Q With the letter you eventually had hand-delivered to Nicole on June 6, 1994, can you tell me when you first drafted that letter that was ultimately delivered?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you drafted it.
THE WITNESS: I probably told Cathy to write something whenever -- whenever she called me. And whenever Gigi told me about the problem, I'm sure I worded it to Skip or I went to Skip and to Cathy about that time, and so whenever that was. That was-- whenever that was. That was in May.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Was that after the time Nicole had given you the bracelet back?
A: I don't--I don't recall. I don't know if that was after, after that happened. It might have been, but I don't know.
Q: I think you also indicated that in '94 there were times Nicole indicated to you that she was depressed?
A: Depressed in '94? When I was in Puerto Rico, she said a lot of things and she couldn't explain it. Earlier in '94--I don't know if "depressed" was a word she used earlier in '94.
Q: Did you ever see her depressed?
A: I saw--You know, I'm not capable of saying what depression or frustration--what does what. I just know that during '94 I know a few occasions she was despondent for whatever reasons, you know, and there were numerous reasons.
Q: Okay. Have you ever seen someone grieving? Do you know what I mean by that?
A: Doing what?
Q: Grieving.
A: Grieving?
Q: Grieving. From the loss of someone or something?
A: I've seen a lot of grieving in the last two years, yes.
Q: Okay. Then you understand basically what I mean by that word?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. On June 17th, 1994 in the morning, you were at Robert Kardashian's house, were you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And Bob Kardashian was there?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you have any conversations with him that morning?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You can answer that yes or no, if you recall.
THE WITNESS: I'm sure I did. I don't recall, but I'm sure I did.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. And you remember at least being in the room or rooms sometime that morning at Kardashian's, do you not?
A: I don't really remember it. I do remember he and Shapiro coming to my bedroom. Other than that, I don't remember, you know, what was going on.
Q: Okay. And by "Shapiro," you mean Bob Shapiro, who was your attorney?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And do you recall seeing Dr. Henry Lee there that morning?
A: I don't really recall it, but I knew during the week at some point he was there. I don't totally recall that day too clearly, but maybe that was the day.
Q: Do you remember having some interaction with Dr. Henry Lee?
A: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: Okay. What about Dr. Baden, Michael Baden? Do you recall at some point on the 17th, first of all, seeing him?
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. Do you know if you saw him at any time prior to the 17th also?
A: If it was the 17th when I saw him, that was when I saw him. I don't-you know, it's hard to tell who--the day before or that day, but I only recall seeing him once, but I may have seen him more than once.
Q: Okay. And you interacted with him in some capacity, did you not?
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. What about Dr. Faerstein? Do you remember him being at the house on the 17th?
A: I remember him. I don't know if he was there on the 17th, but I do remember him being around.
Q: Okay. Do you remember him being around in the day or two prior to that and having some conversations with him?
A: I know he was around that week, and I do recall having conversations with him.
Q: Okay. What about Dr. Huizenga? Do you remember him being at the house on the morning of the 17th?
A: I really don't, but they tell me he was there, but I don't recall.
Q: Do you remember seeing him at all that week?
A: I know I saw him at his office, for sure.
Q: And you had conversations with him?
A: I'm sure I did. I'm sure he asked me questions.
Q: Okay. Now, prior to this week of -- well, after June 13th, had you ever met Dr. Henry Lee before this?
A: No.
Q: Ever heard of him?
A: Prior to this week? I believe I had. I believe--I believe I had.
Q: Okay. What about Dr. Baden?
A: I believe I had heard of him before this,
yes.
Q: Okay. What about Dr. Faerstein?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Dr. Huizenga?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you ever seen him before this week?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you recall when that was?
A: Often, with the Raiders.
Q: Okay. He wasn't your personal physician, though, was he?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a personal physician?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Well, you didn't have a family doctor then?
A: I did at one point, but he died, and then it was--you know, most of my troubles was arthritic or orthopedic, so I had a doctor that I dealt with on those issues.
Q: Do you remember a Denise' Halicki being at Kardashian's the morning of the 17th?
A: I don't recall her being there, but I'm sure she was.
Q: Did you see her on the 15th and/or 16th
down at Kardashian's?
A: I believe I did.
Q: Okay. That was Bob's then girlfriend?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Was A.C down there on the morning of the 17th?
A: I don't know. I don't know what time we left the house, and I don't know what time of day that was, but he was definitely there then.
Q: Okay. And Paula Barbieri was there that morning?
A: Yes.
Q: When had Paula Barbieri arrived at Kardashian's home?
A: I don't know for sure, but it was right after my kids left.
Q: On the 15th?
A: If that's the day it was.
Q: Was that the day of the wake?
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay. But she had been down there for a couple of days?
A: What do you mean?
Q: She had been down at Kardashian's for the last two days before the 17th?
A: Well, she came right after the kids left, and she was there until, you know, right until the 17th. So whatever that is. I don't know what that is
Q: Okay. Well, she spent the night before there, before the 17th?
A: She came--I know the day that the kids left, she came that day, and the 17th she left. I'm just not sure-I just can't recall which day that was, one day or the other.
Q: Okay. Did she stay overnight there?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. More than one night?
A: That's what I can't recall. Whatever day she got in, she stayed with me from that point on.
Q: Now, you had indicated that on Mother's Day 1994, I believe you said you had a great day at the Browns'?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And do you recall who was there at the Browns' besides yourself and Nicole?
A: No. Her family, the Brown family.
Q: Okay. Was A.C there?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Okay. Do you remember anybody else
besides family who was there?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember if Betsy Rocket was there?
A: I don't recall.
Q: And I think you indicated that you had gone shopping to buy all the mothers Mother's Day presents?
A: It was Saturday.
Q: Do you recall what you bought them?
A: Yes.
Q: What was that?
A: Flowers.
Q: Okay. Bunches of flowers?
A: Yes.
Q: And where had you bought those flowers?
A: Pardon me?
Q: Where did you buy those flowers?
A: On PCH.
Q: Okay. Right across the way from the front entry to their residence?
A: No. I think it was closer to where I used to live.
Q: Okay. It was a flower stand, wasn't it?
A: No. It was a flower shop.
Q: You got down there to the--Laguna early that Saturday morning, did you not, like 4:00 a.m.?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And was there some reason you had to be there Saturday morning?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was that for?
A: Sean was having his christening or first communion. I don't know. It was something like that.
Q: And had someone invited you to that?
A: Well, yeah. It was a family thing, and Sean was having his christening, and I came down. It was just something we always did when something was happening with the kids.
Q: Okay. Did Nicole invite you to this?
A: Yes. And I believe the Brown family did, too. We were--it was a family thing, Sean's christening, and I said, "I'll try to get down there; I don't know what time I'm gonna get off work," and I made it down there.
Q: Okay. Did Nicole ever indicate to you that she didn't want you down there during the day that day?
A: No.
Q: And you stayed at the condo you owned
down there?
A: Yes.
Q: That Saturday night?
A: When I got in, yes, I got in bed.
Q: Is that a one-bedroom or two-bedroom condo?
A: Two-bedroom.
Q: Okay. And you never verbally confronted Nicole after she refused to go out to dinner with you that night, that Saturday night, did you?
A: We went out to dinner that Saturday night.
Q: Did she ever initially indicate to you she didn't want to go out with you that Saturday night?
A: As I already testified here, when we got to the door, she freaked out and said, "I can't do this." And I asked her, "What's going on with you?" And she couldn't answer that, and she -- after we talked a bit, she calmed down, and we took some pajamas over to the kids, and we went to dinner.
Q: Brios, is that where you went?
A: Where?
Q: Brios?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know the name of the restaurant?
A: No . I had never eaten there before.
Q: Do you recall where the kids slept that night after you had been out to dinner?
A: I don't believe we picked them up that night. I'm not sure if we did or didn't.
Q: Would it surprise you if you had picked them up that night?
A: No.
Q: Well, would it surprise you you had picked them up that night even after dropping off their pajamas that night?
A: No.
Q: And it's your testimony that you had a normal Saturday evening dinner with Nicole?
A: Yeah, we had a nice dinner.
Q: When you came back from Puerto Rico, what was that, May 1st or something?
A: I don't know. Whatever time it was. It was a weekend.
MR. KELLY: If I can just talk a minute here.
Q: Do you recall how long you had been back from Puerto Rico prior to Christian's party?
A: I may have gotten back that day.
MR. PETROCELLI: Stop talking about me, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You guys talk about me all the time. Come on. Turnabout is fair play.
MR. KELLY: In the alternative, if you are growing to talk, talk loudly enough so I can hear.
MR. PETROCELLI: They're making fun of me. That's all right.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I wouldn't make fun of you.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: So that was a Saturday you got back from Puerto Rico, the Saturday of Christian's party?
A: I believe so. I believe we went to the party that night.
Q: Okay. Do you recall the following weekend, that would have been the Mother's Day weekend?
A: Yes.
Q: That was when you were down at the Browns'?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall where you were the weekend after that? And I am talking about Saturday
-Sunday now?
A: What do you mean, "weekend after that"?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Weekend after Mother's Day?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Weekend after Mother's Day, whether you were in town or not.
A: I think I was in New York.
Q: Okay. Do you know what for?
A: Hertz.
Q: Okay. That was over the weekend?
A: Yes.
Q: And the weekend of--after that, which would have been May 21-22, do you know whether you were in LA. or not for that weekend?
A: Yes, for part of that weekend I was in LA.
Q: Were you just getting back from somewhere that weekend?
A: Yes.
Q: From where?
A: Friday--Thursday I may have gone to Norfolk, Virginia.
Q: And when did you get back?
A: Saturday.
Q: Okay. Afternoon?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, you indicated that you had broken off with Nicole either Mother's Day or the day after?
A: I believe it was officially the day after, even though at dinner that night I told her I couldn't do it anymore, and she--she--you know, it wasn't a hassle. Maybe that's why we had a good
Mother's Day. And the day after Mother's Day we-
Q: Before--this is at dinner at the Browns' on Mother's Day that you told Nicole you couldn't do it anymore?
A: No.
Q: This is the day after?
A: No.
Q: Saturday before Mother's Day?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And this is where you told her you thought it was a hassle and you didn't think you could do it anymore?
A: Exactly. But I think it was official two nights later.
Q: But when you told her this Saturday, it was nonetheless a civil conversation?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Pleasant conversation?
A: Yes.
Q: In fact you said you had an enjoyable dinner?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you don't remember whether you picked the kids up or not?
A: No.
Q: All right. And how did you make it official two days later?
A: We just was talking about everything and the kids, and I recall we both agreed that maybe we got together too soon, you know, and it was a conversation about unlike the first split-up, "Let's make sure that we stay very active together with the kids."
We got very affectionate with each other, and we would kinda tease, because we said, "Well, we should break up three times a week and we'd have a great relationship," because we got sorta romantic that night. You know, it was emotional; it was romantic-
Q: That was Monday night?
A: Monday night, yes.
Q: And where was that at? Bundy?
A: Bundy, yes.
Q: Okay. And were you over there for dinner?
A: Yes.
Q: And the kids were with you, too?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And you put them to bed?
A: I think I may have left and come back, but I'm not a hundred percent sure of that.
Q: Going back to Rockingham?
A: I believe so, because--I believe, because I was--yes, I believe so.
Q: Was that prearranged when you left that you were going to be coming back?
A: Well, I said I had to go do something. "I'll be back," because we wanted to talk about some things.
Q: Okay. Now, after this Monday night interlude and conversation, do you recall when you next saw Nicole?
A: Not exactly, but a few times that week.
Q: And that was before you left town that weekend?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall where you saw Nicole?
A: I think I had dinner there one night, and I think they were at my house one day, one day after school.
Q: And the kids were with Nicole that weekend you were gone?
A: What weekend?
Q: The 15th.
A: Certainly Friday night. I just can't recall Saturday and Sunday night. I just don't recall Saturday and Sunday night, because I know I had the kids all day Sunday, and Sunday night I believe they spent the night with me, so--so... Do you know about what date Nicole got sick with double pneumonia?
A: You know what? I'm a week ahead. Let me go back a week. I'm a week ahead. I'm a week ahead of the game right now. Tell me what week-what you're asking about.
Q: Would it help your recollection, Mr. Simpson, to look at your calendar a little bit?
A: Cathy's calendar, yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI: This is Exhibit 8-A.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You want to just take a minute and-
A: Yeah.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Not that we haven't been through this.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
(Whereupon, a photograph was taken.)
MR. LEONARD: The flash didn't go off.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's pretty funny, Bob.
MR. LEONARD: This guy, he's whacked out.
MR. PETROCELLI: He missed his calling.
MR. KELLY: Absolutely lost it.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I'll give you a copy.
MR. LEONARD: I get an assist. Absolutely no-
MR. PETROCELLI: Was that your idea?
MR. LEONARD: No, no, but I -Never mind.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You definitely get an assist. He got your picture, he says.
MR. PETROCELLI: Anyway...Off the record for a second?
(Discussion held off the record.)
MR. KELLY: Let's break for a minute.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:00 o'clock.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back
now, and the time is approximately 2:11.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Now, Mr. Simpson, you have had the opportunity to look over your calendar for May of 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And I believe you indicated that-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Cathy Randa's calendar, actually, but-
MR. KELLY: Cathy Randa's. Okay.
Q: Looking over that, that basically represents your calendar for the month of 1994 as you recall it?
A: Yes.
Q: And after looking at it, are you clear now that it was May 14th and 15th you were in New York?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you recall whether that was Sydney's first communion that weekend also?
A: It was.
Q: Okay. Were you there for that?
A: I couldn't get out of my -- I couldn't get out of my commitment.
Q: Okay. But you had been at Sean's the weekend before. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you had indicated that after the Monday night, May 9th, when you had been with Nicole, you had dinner with her another night that week also?
A: And I see here we did a few other things together that week, too, but Monday night, I believe so. Monday afternoon, Monday night.
Q: Well, what else did you do that week?
A: We went to a talent show for Sydney together.
Q: What night was that?
A: That would have been a day that was called for. That would have been that day.
Q: The 9th?
A: That would have been the 11th.
Q: Okay. And what else that week?
A: As I said, I had dinner at her house one night that week.
Q: In addition to the 9th?
A: Pardon me?
Q: In addition to your dinner there on the 9th, you were there another night that week?
A: Yeah, I believe so.
Q: Do you know what night that was?
A: I don't know. I know that night-that week we--one day they were at my house and one night I was at their house.
Q: While--you were there Monday night, the day after Mother's Day, for sure. Is that correct?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q; And I think you said were you there another night also
A: Yes.
Q: What--do you know what night that was?
A: No. I just know I had dinner there early one night, and one night they were at my house.
Q: So three nights that week you had dinner together with Nicole and the kids?
A: It could have been. I can't recall if they ate at my house, but two or three nights that week we--two or three days that week we definitely saw one another, yes.
Q: Okay. And were those pleasant get-togethers with you and Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. No problems?
A: No problems.
Q: Okay. Now, after reviewing Cathy Randa's
journal and seeing that you were in New York on the 15th, does that refresh your recollection at all as to when Nicole got sick?
A: When I came back from New York, she was going to the doctor, and I talked to her from New York and I told her, "Boy, you sound bad," and she said yeah, she may have caught a cold, and then when I came back, she was in real bad shape and she was going to the doctor.
Q: She sounded like she had a cold before you left for New York and-
A: No, no. While I was in New York and I talked to her, and she sounded like she really had a bad cold, and at the time--I don't know--it just sounded bad. I was teasing her and saying, "You must be partying too much," because she sounded real raspy. And then when I came back, she told me she was sick and was going to the doctor.
Q: And you got back the night of the 15th from New York?
A: I may have came back on the 16th.
Q: And you said you nursed Nicole while she was sick.
A: Yes, while I was in town that week I-- every morning I would bring her--I would pick up her
scones and stuff. Even if I played golf, I'd do it right after. I'd call her and see how she was doing.
Q: I'm sorry. Picked up her?
A: Scones and coffee that she liked. I brought her some flowers and I brought her some soup a couple times that week, and a couple of nights that week or at least one night that week she had a real bad cough, and I ended up going to the market to get her some cough syrup.
Q: All right. So you were over there every morning of that week, Monday through Friday?
A: Monday I couldn't have been there, so I wasn't there Monday. Tuesday afternoon I think I brought her soup. Wednesday morning I definitely brought her coffee. May have brought some flowers, too, on Wednesday. And that afternoon I took care of the kids and everything, I believe, with dinner and whatever she needed. Thursday I think again--I know I ended up Thursday night getting her a cake and, you know, gifts from the kids, and the four of us had a little birthday thing at her house.
Q: This was on her birthday, the 19th?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Was anybody there besides her and the kids?
A: No.
Q: Did you have dinner together?
A: I think I bought dinner. I'm not sure. I believe her mother may have been there during the day that day.
Q: Okay. Wasn't her mother there several days that week, if you recall?
A: No.
Q: Just one day?
A: I was there Wednesday and her mother wasn't there. I was there Tuesday and her mother wasn't there. I think on her birthday Judy came, and then I don't know what Judy might have done after that. Judy wasn't around that night at all.
Q: The night of her birthday?
A: Yes. And she wasn't there Wednesday when I was there, and she wasn't there Tuesday when I was there.
Q: How long were you there Tuesday?
A: I don't know. She was really sick. I just went by.
Q: More than an hour?
A: I don't know. I don't recall.
Q: You weren't there all day.
A: No. It was in the afternoon.
Q: Okay. You weren't there all day Wednesday, were you?
A: No. It was in the afternoon.
Q: You weren't there all day Thursday?
A: All day?
Q: Yeah.
A: No. No.
Q: You weren't there all day Thursday?
A: You just asked that.
MR. LEONARD: You did.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And what about Friday?
A: Friday, no.
Q: Okay. And that week, and I am talking about the 16th up through the 19th of her birthday, did you see Cici there at her house at all?
A: Not at all.
Q: Was Elvia there?
A: She might have been. I don't recall.
Q: You don't recall seeing her there at all that week?
A: No. She might have been because she worked during the week, but I probably just didn't pay any attention. And normally by the time I got there she was out of the way, because we'd eat and then we'd go upstairs, and then I guess she would clean up the kitchen. But I may have seen her, but I don't recall.
Q: Okay. Did she have a room she stayed in there?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was back off the kitchen?
A: No. It was downstairs.
Q: At the garage level?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did Elvia work for anybody besides Nicole during that period of time?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Do you know whether Elvia worked for the Fishmans?
A: No.
Q: No, she didn't?
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay. Did you ever see Faye during that week when you were over at the house?
A: Not at all.
Q: Did you ever see Cora that week?
A: I don't believe so. I never saw anybody at her house.
Q: Okay. Didn't see her sisters?
A: Definitely not.
Q: Okay. Now, that weekend after her birthday, May 21st-22nd--
A: Yes.
Q: --were you in town that weekend?
A: Part of it.
Q: When you say, "Part of it," what do you mean?
A: I came back Saturday night.
Q: From?
A: Norfolk, Virginia.
Q: Okay. Did the kids stay over Saturday night?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you see them Sunday?
A: Yes, they were with me all day.
Q: At Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: And was Paula there that day?
A: No.
Q: It was just you, Sydney and Justin?
A: And 300 other people, 3- to 400 other people.
Q: And what was that for?
A: Justin's preschool--I give a picnic every year for the preschool to help raise money for
the school.
Q: Okay. Is that a catered affair?
A: Yes.
Q: Was Nicole there that day?
A: She came for a while, yes.
Q: Was she still sick then?
A: She was getting over sickness, and she was--you know, I think it was her first time out since she got sick.
Q: And was there a time that you and Nicole were alone during that day?
A: A couple of times. Well, yes, a couple of times.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me when the first time was?
A: The first time was when she went upstairs and got in my bed.
Q: Okay. She wasn't feeling well?
A: She got a little tired.
Q: How long had she been there for?
A: I don't know. It was during the course of the day, and she had been there a few hours, I guess. I can't recall exactly how long she had been there.
Q: Okay. By the way, who made the arrangements for this event at your house that day?
A: In the past Nicole would have. In this trip I think they had a committee at the school that did.
Q: That was the first time?
A: Pardon me?
Q: This was the first time a committee did it?
A: Well, I think there was a committee in the past. Nicole just didn't like working with people, so even though it was a committee, she would do most of it. The year before I don't think Nicole was involved at all. The year we were apart she wasn't involved at all. She just attended it. And this year I don't think she was really involved either. I think it was a committee that did it.
Q: Okay. What time did that start, that event?
A: I don't know.
Q: Well, was it an afternoon thing?
A: No. It started in--you know, the people were all there that was working that was there in the morning, the caterers, the people with the games and things, and I gather people started coming around 11:00 or 12:00.
Q: Do you remember what time Nicole got there?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember approximately what time it was that she went up to your room?
A: It was in the afternoon.
Q: Did she tell you she was going up there?
A: She was actually laying on me on the couch. I was watching the basketball game with some people, and she said she was feeling cold, and she went upstairs and got in my bed.
Q: And who were you watching the game with?
A: Just fathers were coming in and out. You know, every year this event always happens in the middle of the championship series, and I-
Q: Is that what this was? Was this Houston-Knicks at this time?
A: Yes. Yes. And I always turn my TV on and leave the doors open and let the fathers know, if they're into basketball, they can walk--they can go in and watch.
Yeah, may have been semis, but it was the NBA, I know that, and they were coming in. Various people were coming in and out watching the game.
Q: And after she indicated she was going upstairs, had you had any conversations with her before this, private conversations, that day?
A: I don't know about private. We laid in the grass and talked, and a couple people joined us from time to time. Then I went in and watched the game, and at one point she came in.
Q: Okay. How long was she downstairs before she headed up?
A: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what time she got there, so it's hard for me to answer that.
Q: Okay. Did you go upstairs and talk to her at all when she was up in your room?
A: At one point I went up to see how she was doing.
Q: Did you talk at all, or did you just check on her?
A: You know, "How you doing?" I was always like saying, you know, "Nicole, you got to really watch what you're doing," you know. You know, I mean just--yes.
Q: Okay. Did--there came a time that day when she gave a bracelet back to you?
A: I believe that night.
Q: Okay. Was that at your place?
A: Her place.
Q: Okay. Do you recall what time she had left your place on Rockingham?
A: No.
Q: Approximately?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall what time this event ended?
A: 4:30, 5:00, something like that.
Q: Okay. Did you stay when they cleaned up afterwards?
A: I don't think I stayed around when they cleaned up. I may have taken the kids somewhere while they were doing that.
Q: Okay. And did there come a time you took the kids back to Nicole's, then?
A: I believe so.
Q: Could you approximate what time that was you took the kids back to Bundy?
A: I don't--I don't know. You know, I don't have a clear--clear--clear picture of exactly what happened late in the afternoon that day.
Q: By the way, do you recall which car you drove over to Bundy that night?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You have no recollection what time
you got over to Bundy-
A: No.
Q:--that evening? Do you know if it was after dark or not?
A: I know I was there when it was dark because at some point the kids were asleep.
Q: Okay. Well, you didn't have dinner over there, did you?
A: No. I think I took the kids to dinner.
Q: And then when they--you took them home, you went in with them?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Nicole know you were coming in at that time?
A: She knew I was bringing the kids, yes.
Q: Okay. Would you generally when you would drop them off at the end of a weekend come in with them?
A: Not in the year that we were not together. At least at one point, latter part of that time.
Q: We're talking '92?
A: Yeah, the latter part--more the early of '93, I wouldn't. Latter part of '92, early '93, I wouldn't. All the other time we were together, yes,
of course I would, even if I wasn't staying, and at this point in time right up until approximately a little after this time, I would, yes.
Q: Okay. So when you got there that night, what happened?
A: I think we went in, and, you know, she was feeling tired-
Q: By the way, did you come to the front or back?
A: I don't remember. And we put the kids to sleep. I think I fell asleep in Jason--Justin's bed.
Q: You did.
A: I believe I did for a little bit.
Q: With Justin?
A: I--normally I start reading him a story or something; I have a history of falling asleep before he does. But at one point I woke up, and I went in and Nicole was watching TV.
Q: Okay. And what happened then?
A: We just started talking about things and--
Q: This is in her bedroom?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you have no idea what time it
was?
A: I can guess 9:30, 10:00 o'clock. It's just a guess.
Q: Could you give me the substance of the conversation?
A: Her health, my TV--
Q: Was your TV in her bedroom.
A: Yes.
Q: In what context did your TV come up?
A: She was saying how she got used to having the TV in the bedroom. She was asking me some--at one point if I wanted the TV, because she finally got to the point where she was--she liked the TV in the bedroom. She never did in all the years I knew her before then.
Q: Had she ever offered your TV back to you before that night in all the years you knew her?
A: She never had my TV before that in all the years I knew her.
Q: Well, when did she get it?
A: I brought it a few months previous to this.
Q: Okay. She had never offered it back to you before that night, had she?
A: There was no reason to.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't know that she offered it back yet.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. She was just saying she was used to having the TV in her room, and I was telling her, "Well"--I actually think I told her I would trade TVs with her because I liked the headphone aspect of this TV.
BY MR. KELLY: That she had?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. What else did you talk about?
A: She talked about this bracelet, that I didn't really buy it for her. I told her--I didn't say anything. I had no comment. And then she said, "You really didn't buy it for me," and I had no comment. And she didn't feel right having it, and I took it, I accepted it, and then we--I think I said something about the earrings. We talked about a lot of just menial stuff, I guess, you know, people, what was going on-
Q: Well, how did you work up to the bracelet aspect of the conversation?
A: I don't know. She said something about the bracelet, that "You didn't really buy me that bracelet, did you?" Because even the day I gave it to
her she was surprised.
Q: Was it a tennis bracelet?
A: No.
Q: Could you describe it to me?
A: I think it was sapphires and diamonds. It was kind of an antique, sort of an art deco piece. And she did not --she didn't think I bought it for her, and she couldn't understand why I had bought it for her, and I told her, "The kids bought it for you."
And she says, "You didn't really buy me this," and I didn't say anything, and so she gave it back to me, and I was sorta glad to get it back.
Q: Who did you buy that bracelet for?
A: Paula.
Q: When did you buy it?
A: I think on the 19th.
Q: When you spoke to the police on the 13th, who did you tell them you had bought the bracelet for?
A: I said I had given Nicole a bracelet, and she had given it back. They had asked me about the bracelet as if it was something, and I just said, "Hey it was a bracelet I had given her, and she gave it back to me."
Q: Well, you sort of elaborated, when you were talking to Lange and Vannatter, about how you had
bought that for Nicole and were in a tight spot because of that, because you had taken it back and given it to Paula, didn't you?
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't-
BY MR. KELLY: Okay. And that actually wasn't true, then, when you told Lange and Vannatter that you had bought it for Nicole, was it?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. When did you give that bracelet to Paula, by the way?
A: Probably the next day.
Q: Are you certain about that, or you just think it was?
A: Well, the next time I saw her I gave it to her, which would have probably been the next--I don't think I saw her on the 22nd. She might have been out of town. I'm not sure. But within the next day or two I did see her, and I gave it to her.
Q: Okay. And had Nicole ever given you any jewelry back before she gave you back this bracelet?
A: I hadn't bought her jewelry in a while, so I would say no.
Q: Ever?
A: There was no need to. We were always together whenever I gave her jewelry before.
Q: Okay. And the earrings, you had bought her a pair of earrings years earlier originally, hadn't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And the set that you asked back for were a replacement pair?
A: Yes.
Q: And when had you given her that replacement pair?
A: It wasn't that I gave it to her. I- when we had got back together, at one point she told me she had lost these other earrings, which I knew were her favorite earrings, earrings I had designed and made for her...
What was the question? I'm sorry.
(Pending question read.)
THE WITNESS: I hadn't.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Who did?
A: The jeweler.
Q: Do you know how long ago that had been?
A: Not too--not too much sooner than this time, I would imagine, because I think the first time
he--Not too much sooner than this time.
Q: Like within the last couple weeks?
A: It could have been. I'm not sure. I just wasn't around, so I'm not sure.
Q: Okay. And where did you buy this cigarette lighter you gave Nicole for her birthday?
A: Cartier.
Q: Okay. And she kept that?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You didn't generally like Nicole smoking, did you?
A: No.
Q: In fact you had a no smoking sign in your bathroom at Rockingham?
A: No.
Q: Her bathroom?
A: No.
Q: Now, I think you said those earrings-- you just stated that they were her favorite design?
A: I had designed them for her once before, she really loved them.
Q: Okay. And you had given them to her in what year? Do you know?
A: No.
Q: Okay. They meant a lot to her?
A: The first pair, yes.
Q: And these were identical to those?
A: Well, I tried to get them designed to be right, and they were very close.
Q: Okay. Of all the jewelry Nicole had, these were her most favorite item?
A: I can't say that because there's some jewelry that I know she loved that she never wore because they were too expensive, but she really liked these earrings.
Q: They meant a lot to her.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you asked her for those earrings back that night.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And was that the first time you had ever asked Nicole back for jewelry?
A: I really didn't ask for -- I'm wrong. Let me amend this. I didn't ask for the earrings back, no. That's wrong. I did not ask for the earrings back.
Q: Well, what happened?
A: She gave them to me.
Q: Just out of the blue, or was there any discussion about it, or what?
A: No. She owed me some money, and she didn't have the money, and she gave me the earrings.
Q: Did she--did you ask her for the money?
A: Yes. I said--yes, I did. I asked her for a check, and she said she had spent it or something.
Q: So in the context of a conver--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I know we have.
MR. KELLY: Excuse me?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We've been all through this.
MR. KELLY: I don't think we have, Mr. Baker.
THE WITNESS: Yes, we have.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That why he whispered in your ear. That's why Petrocelli whispered in your ear, because we've been all the way through this, that I he asked her for the check
MR. PETROCELLI: The money or the check--I m sorry. The money or the earrings.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No, I know he didn't say that "Give me the replacement check." We've been all through this. Come on, guys, it's Day nine.
MR. PETROCELLI: Your money or your life. That's an old Jack Benny joke.
THE WITNESS: Not funny here.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's no funny here.
MR. KELLY: It's not.
Q: And how long was the total conversation up in her bedroom before you left with the earrings as opposed to the money?
A: I'm sorry. Say that again.
Q: Well, how long were you in her bedroom talking to her before you left?
A: For a while, because I laid on the bed with her and watched something that she was watching the end of, and I'd say after I got out of Justin's room and went to her room, about an hour.
Q: Okay. And when you left there, you had the earrings and the bracelet?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did you consider that sort of a final break-off between you and Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did there ever before June 12th, 1994 come a time that you considered it a final break-off between you and Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: And what date was that?
A: The day after Mother's Day.
Q: Okay. That was that dinner over at Nicole's house?
A: Yes. It was--it may have been Mother's Day night, but I believe it was the day after Mother's Day, and we--and it was then that I-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't ask you what you did. He just said when was it.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Just in my mind--
MR. KELLY: I'm here to listen, Mr. Baker, if he wants to-
THE WITNESS: Yeah, in my mind it was over then, and I'm sure in hers, too. We--you know, we went elsewhere. We went in different directions at that point, but we were still friends.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. So you didn't see this May 22nd date as a significant date at all?
A: No. I thought it was a nice night. We were very pleasant with one another, just like we had been for the previous, you know, l0 days-
Q: Okay.
A:--or so.
Q: Do you recall when you were talking to the police on June 13th, 1994 they asked you when you had broken up with Nicole?
A: No, I don't recall that at all.
Q: Do you recall at all when you were
talking to the police on the 13th telling them how long or what time previously you had broken up with Nicole again?
A: I may have told them a month before.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you don't recall, just tell him you don't recall, OJ.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
MR. KELLY: Do we have Exhibit 101 the police statement?
Q: Page 3, starting line 19. This is you speaking:
"About us trying to get back together. And, uh, we gave it a shot, and we gave it a shot the better part of a year."
Response: "Mmnh-mmnh." And your response again: "And, uh, I think we both knew it wasn't working, and probably three weeks ago or so we said it just wasn't working." Do you remember giving that answer to the police that day?
A: I don't remember, but that's obviously what I said.
Q: Okay. And I would ask you to turn to page 27--actually 26, at the bottom, line 25 this is you speaking now:
" for about a year. And in the last six months we've had-- it hadn't been working, so we tried various things- Police response: "Mmnh- mmnh."
You: " to--to see if we can make it work. We started trying to date and it wasn't working. And, uh --and, uh, so, you know, then we just said to hell with it, you know."
Police: "And that was about three weeks ago?"
You: "Yeah, about three weeks ago. It was like it just stopped happening." Do you remember giving that response-
A: Yes.
Q: - in answer to the police questions?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you recall now that you, when
putting a breakup of you and Nicole in a time frame, you put it three weeks prior to June 13th, 1994?
A: Yes. I mean that was an estimate, but I think I was a little more definitive at other times with them, telling them right when I got back from San Juan it was virtuallv over and we split up. So it was a guess at the time, you know. I didn't have a calendar in front of me.
Q: Okay. Prior to August 1989 there was a full antenuptial agreement in place between you and Nicole, was there not?
A: I'm sorry. Say that again?
Q: In August 1989 when Nicole signed off on that one-page letter saying that if you ever physically assaulted her or something, it would void the antenuptial agreement, do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Prior to her signing that and giving it to you, you had an antenuptial agreement in place, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And was it your understanding that after your divorce became final in 1992, your antenuptial agreement with Nicole was inapplicable anymore?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, if you have an opinion. That calls for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: I don't understand.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well, after you were divorced, and antenuptial agreement meant nothing. Correct?
A: Yes. I wasn't married to anyone, so yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall the weekend Of May 28th, 29th, where you were?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Why don't you look at the calendar, OJ.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I am sorry. Just backing up again, Mr. Simpson, the day after May 22nd when you had been over at Bundy and took--or got the bracelet back and the earrings back-
A: May 22nd? That may have been that night. It may have been May 22nd. I'm not a hundred percent sure of that. It may have been May 22nd that that happened.
Q: That you were over at Bundy?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall going out to dinner with Nicole at all shortly after that?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any meetings with Nicole after that regarding the children?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall the next time you saw Nicole after that night, May 22nd?
A: I know I saw her possibly a few times, but I can't--you know. I know it wasn't for any length of time. I was all that week busy--No. The answer is no.
MR. KELLY: I've got to take a break for a few minutes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No, let's stay on. We are going to finish today, aren't we?
MR. KELLY: I don't know, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, we are going to finish today. He is not coming back for any more liability testimony. I want everybody in this room to fully understand that. It is not going it happen.
MR. KELLY: Mr. Baker, that's unacceptable. I am not limiting myself-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's too bad.
MR. KELLY:--to one day of questioning because you want me to limit myself-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's too bad. It isn't going to happen without a court order. Nine days is adequate, and it is not going to happen, so keep it in mind and take whatever breaks you want.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Well, let's not take a break. Let's go.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Let s go.
MR. KELLY: Actually, no I've got to take one break. We'll take the break.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:43.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: we are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 2:57.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Simpson, you testified about this conversation you had with Nicole over at Bundy on the night of the 22nd and how you had taken back or been given back a bracelet and earrings.
Do you recall whether you saw Nicole on the following day May 23rd?
A: No.
Q: No, you did not?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Could you tell me the next time you ever saw or spoke to Nicole after May 22nd?
A: I know I saw and spoke to her during the course of that week. I believe it was during--yeah, I can't say. I can't say for sure, but I know I did during the course of that week.
Q: That you both saw her and spoke to her?
A: I'm sure I saw her, and I know I spoke to her.
Q: Well, if you're sure you saw her, can you tell me where you saw her?
A: I'm not sure.
Q: Could you tell me-
A: It may have been at my house.
Q: But you're not certain?
A: I'm not certain.
Q: Okay. Do you know how long you saw her for?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any conversation with her?
A: I can't recall.
Q: Okay. Nothing that sticks out in your mind at this point?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you recall the next time that you--after that week that you saw her or spoke to her?
A: After this week?
Q: Yeah.
A: I saw her one day. I believe it was in one day in June, I know I saw her.
Q: Okay. Going back to May 28th, 29th, which would have been a Saturday-Sunday?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you in town that weekend?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Was that Labor Day-- Memorial Day, I mean?
THE WITNESS: What do you mean? What do you call the "weekend"? You mean counting Monday?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well, Saturday-Sunday, first of all were you around then?
A: No.
Q: Where were you?
A: Palm Springs.
Q: And who were you there with?
A: For part of a day, Paula Barbieri.
Q: Okay. Was that Saturday?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And who were you there Sunday with, if anybody?
A: Just friends.
Q: Do you remember who you were there with?
A: I was with numerous people: Jackie Cooper; I believe Allen Austin. Those are the guys I played golf with.
Q: Did you play Saturday and Sunday?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you play Monday, too?
A: I believe so.
Q: And were the kids with you at all that weekend?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you get back to L.A. Monday night?
A: Sometime Monday, yes.
Q: Okay. Now, after getting back from Palm Springs that Monday, could you tell me if there was another time that you saw Nicole between that time and June 12th, 1994?
A: Yes. I saw her one night when I came to pick up the kids. I saw her running one day-
Q: What night was that--
A: I don't know.
Q: - if you can remember, when you came to pick up the kids?
A: It probably would have been a Friday, because that's when I would get the kids.
Q: Okay. Would that be the following Friday after that Memorial Day?
A: Yes.
Q: And as you look at the schedule there now or journal of Cathy Randa's, could you tell me what the date would have been on that Friday?
A: I believe it would have been Friday, the 3rd.
Q: Okay. And I think you indicated also that Paula was only there for part of Saturday in Palm Springs?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there anything in particular that caused her to leave there?
A: Yes.
Q: What was that?
A: Me getting up playing golf.
Q: Okay. And she got mad about that?
A: Evidently.
Q: And she left you.
A: Well, she left Palm Springs.
Q: She left Palm Springs.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Was there any mention of Nicole between you and Paula that Saturday before she left?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Nicole had nothing to do with Paula leaving that weekend?
A: Nothing.
Q: Okay. Now, looking at the following Friday, past Memorial Day, what date was that again?
A: I believe the 3rd of June.
Q: Okay. And between that Monday, having gotten back from Palm Springs, and that Friday, June 3rd, did you speak to Nicole at all that week?
A: No.
Q: She didn't call you on the phone?
A: No.
Q: You didn't call her on the phone?
A: No.
Q: No conversation with her.
A: None.
Q: Okay. But you showed up Friday night at Bundy to pick up the kids?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall what time you showed up?
A: About 8:20.
Q: Okay. Did she know you were corning for the kids?
A: Yes.
Q: And how was that?
A: Cathy told her.
Q: Okay. And you knew that Cathy spoke to her that week?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did Cathy call Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was at your instruction?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And when you arrived that Friday evening, you indicated that there might have been some family there at the house?
A: There was a family walking in the house.
Q: Okay. In front of you or behind you?
A: Just--you know, my car wasn't facing her house or driving from her house. They were walking to the house.
Q: As you were leaving.
A: No. As I arrived.
Q: Okay. And did you arrive at the front of the house?
A: Yes.
Q: And was that in the Bentley?
A: May have been. I'm not a hundred percent sure.
Q: Okay. Would you park out on Bundy in front of the house?
A: Yes.
Q: Is parking allowed there on Bundy?
A: Yes.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Not anymore.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: When you arrived there at about 8:20 that Friday night, did you have any conversation with Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you relate to me the substance of that conversation?
A: Her words were, she didn't know it was late that I was coming, and she had called some friends for Sydney, and I said, "Cathy told you I was coming before 8:30," and it was only 8:20.
And she said, ''You should have come earlier."
And I told her, "Don't get bitchy," and she went back in the house.
She said, "I'll bring them tomorrow," I believe, and went back in the house.
Q: And that was, as far as you can recall, the extent of your conversation with her?
A: Yes.
Q: Was she angry at that time?
A: She didn't seem to be.
Q: Why did you tell her not to get bitchy?
A: Because that's what she was-you know, this whole fact of me not coming at 8:30, she knew I was coming, yet she still arranged for someone else to be at the house for Sydney as an excuse for the kids not--
Q: So you're referring to the arrangement she had made as being bitchy?
A: Yeah.
Q: Not her attitude.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Were you angry with her for not letting the kids come?
A: Probably, yes. Yes, probably.
Q: Okay. Did you see anybody that night after you left there, by the way?
A: No.
Q: And Nicole did drop Sydney and Justin off the next morning?
A: Yes.
Q: Did she drop them off herself?
A: I don't know. I wasn't there.
Q: Playing golf?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Was Gigi there?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Nicole had told you that night that she'd drop them off first thing in the morning, didn't she?
A: She didn't say "first thing in the morning." She said, "I'll drop them off tomorrow "morning."
Q: Okay. And she did drop them off in the morning.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you had no reason to be angry about that because you were playing golf. Correct?
A: Well, I wouldn't have played golf if my kids were there, but I played golf. So I wasn't angry when I got home. I wasn't angry after I drove off a few blocks, you know.
Q: Okay. And were Sydney and Justin there alone with Gigi when you got back from golf?
A: I don't think Gigi was there. When I got there, they were with Paula. Paul had taken Justin to--they were there with Paula. Paula and I think
Kato was there and Kato's kid was there, and Arnelle may have been around.
Q: Did Gigi work Saturdays?
A: No
Q: Okay. And Sydney and Justin stayed with you--Let me ask you: On the 4th, do you recall going over to Bundy at all?
A: No. I may have. I think I did at one point, but I'm not a hundred percent sure.
Q: Do you know what you-might have gone over there for?
A: Something to do with Justin and Justin's Nintendos and things.
Q: Okay. Was that the time you walked in and up to Justin's room with him?
A: Yes.
Q: And Nicole was in her bedroom.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did you come in the front door or back door?
A: I believe it was the back door.
Q: Okay. And did you go up through the kitchen to the front staircase?
A: That's the only way to go up.
Q: Okay. And how long were you up there
with Justin before you came back down?
A: Two, three minutes.
Q: Okay. And what did you do while Justin was in talking to Nicole at that time?
A: Looked at the back of his machine, looked to see what he had, looked to see how it was hooked up.
Q: Okay. And did he leave with you then?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, after the 4th--that was a Saturday?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. On the 5th did you have any conversations during the day with Nicole?
A: There was a message for me, I believe.
Q: Do you recall--From Nicole?
A: I believe so.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't ask you about messages, OJ.
THE WITNESS: No, I didn't have a conversation with her, no.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Could you tell me what the substance of the message was from Nicole?
A: Something about the dogs. Could have been Monday. I'm not a hundred percent sure. Could have been Monday. But it was something about the dogs one of those two days.
Q: Can you be more specific what it was about the dogs?
A: They were fighting. One of them had to be taken back to my house.
Q: Was that Kato and Chachi?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you took Sydney and Justin back the night of the 5th, Sunday night. Is that correct?
A: I'm not sure.
Q: Do you know when or what day you took Sydney and Justin back?
A: No. It could have been Monday. I may have taken them to school Monday. I'm not sure.
Q: W ell, after the 4th, do you know when the next time you were back over at Bundy was?
A: I know I was there Sunday. It could have been Monday, but I'm pretty sure it was Sunday.
Q: It was the 5th?
A: I'm pretty sure it was.
Q: Well, was that the day you went over there and Faye was there?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And was that the day Kato got out and you had to catch him?
A: Yes. That was either Sunday or Monday.
Q: And you eventually caught Kato?
A: Yes. Well, she did and then kinda ran him to me.
Q: Okay. Did you speak to Nicole at all that day?
A: I don't think so. I may have made a crack about Faye, but we didn't have a conversation, no.
Q: You made a crack about Faye to Nicole?
A: I may have, but-
Q: Or a crack to-
A: To Nicole about Faye. I just saw Nicole; she came to the front of the house at one point, but I don't recall if we had an interchange or not.
Q: Okay. And after the 5th do you recall seeing or speaking to Nicole again before the recital on June 12th?
A: I was just saying if the dog incident was the 5th, no.
Q: Okay. So the last time you remember either seeing or speaking to Nicole prior to June 12th, 1994 at the recital was this Sunday, June 5th?
A: No. I talked to her during the week at one point when I was in Connecticut. I think we had a short conversation, but it was just to get to Justin or something. We may have had a short conversation then.
Q: I assume this would have been a call initiated by you?
A: Yes, it started by me and then they called me.
Q: Who is "they?"
A: Nicole may have put the call in for Justin.
Q: And what was that regarding?
A: Justin. Evidently, Justin, they had something at his school that I was-didn't know about or hadn't paid attention to or something, and I wanted to congratulate him.
Q: Okay. Was Justin upset that you weren't there for it?
A: He was asking me where was I.
Q: Okay. Was Nicole upset with you for not being there?
A: She didn't indicate that to me, no.
Q: Did you even speak to her at all?
A: I think the first time I called, I spoke to her, yes, and then they called me back, and I think they just put Justin on the phone.
Q: Okay. Do you recall the substance of the conversation when you spoke to her?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was that?
A: "I want to speak to Justin.
Q: And what did she say?
A: I think she was involved in something.
Q: Just handed the phone to Justin?
A: No.
Q: What did she say?
A: Where was I. They needed to call me back.
Q: Any particular tone to her voice?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And how long after that did she call you back?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Within an hour?
A: Probably.
Q: And when you say they called you back--
A: Justin called me back.
Q: Okay. You didn't speak to Nicole again?
A: No.
Q: And do you recall what day that was on? Or can you tell by looking at Miss Randa's calendar?
A: I would say it was Wednesday night.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: 8th.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Prior to that, during that week, which would have been 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, did you have any argument with Nicole about Faye?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any argument on the 5th with Nicole about Faye?
A: No.
Q: To the best of your recollection you might have made a crack about Faye to Nicole on the 5th?
A: Yes.
Q: After you spoke to Nicole and-on the 8th, could you tell me when you next spoke to her?
A: On the 12th.
Q: And what time was that?
A: I got to go back to something.
Q: Okay.
A: I think Nicole asked me on the 8th would I be back in town for the weekend.
Q: You think or did she?
A: I'm sure she did.
Q: Okay. And what did you tell her?
A: I had planned to be, yes.
Q: Okay. On the 6th, that was the day that you sent the IRS letter to Nicole, is it not?
A: I wouldn't have been aware of it, but evidently that's the day it got there, yes.
Q: When you say you weren't "aware of it," what do you mean by that?
A: I had told Cathy to write something along those lines, and I had met with Skip about it previous to this.
Q: Well, do you know how long previous to that you had met Skip about it?
A: I know it was right after she had called and yelled at me.
Q: And what date was that?
A: I don't know.
Q: What did she yell at you about?
A: About Faye.
Q: Do you have any idea what that date was?
A: No.
Q: By looking at Cathy's calendar there, does it jog your memory at all? Was it was a weekend?
A: No. It was during the week.
Q: Okay. Was it after Palm Springs?
A: It was before Palm Springs.
Q: The week before?
A: I don't know.
Q: Was it a night or day when she called you?
A: Night.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Are you now trying to turn this into a sauna?
MR. PETROCELLI: It is hot. Held hostage. Why don't you lower it.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Held hostage in a sauna.
MR. BREWER: I would say today's one-liner is, "Kelly turns up the heat."
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Do you want to just read it from page 855? You can just read it.
MR. KELLY: Read what? I'm checking back to my last question, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Your last question was a series of questions that was asked on January 24, 1996.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: After June 8th, I think you just indicated before that the next time you spoke to Nicole was June 12th?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you spoken to Sydney or Justin between June 8th and June 12th?
A: I don't believe so. I may have speaken to--spoken to them on the 11th, but I'm not sure.
Q: Okay. When did you speak to her on the 12th?
A: I was in my car coming back from golf.
Q: Okay. And you made that call?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And what was the substance of that conversation?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: How long was that conversation?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Was it a short conversation?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Was it a pleasant conversation?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. KELLY
Q: When you got to the recital on June 12th, did you already have a ticket in hand for that?
A: No.
Q: Okay. How did you get your ticket to get into the recital?
A: As I said before when Mr. Petrocelli-
MR. LEONARD: -celli.
THE WITNESS:---celli
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Oh, the meltdown look from Daniel.
THE WITNESS: My son grabbed me, brought me over to Nicole, and I asked Nicole for the ticket.
MR. PETROCELLI: No respect.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you speak to Nicole at all during the recital?
A: Other than asking for the ticket, no.
Q: Okay. Do you recall there being a break during the recital?
A: Possibly.
Q: Okay. And you didn't speak to Nicole at that time, did you?
A: No.
Q: And you had indicated earlier to Mr. Petrocelli that-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't take the easy ones; he won't be whispering in your ear anymore.
MR. KELLY: Little levity to the table here.
Q: When you sat down at the recital, you indicated that the kids were between you and Nicole?
A: Well, they were moving around a lot.
Q: Okay. Could--
A: Actually Justin was in my lap most of the time instead of his seat, and then they were--you know, the boys, they were running around.
Q: Could you tell me how many seats were between you and Nicole?
A: Two.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Here, you can read it from page 861, January 24th, 1996.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever move your seat from where you were with Nicole?
A: These are not movable seats. It's like going to a theater. You can't move them.
Q: Did you ever go sit somewhere else after a while?
A: No.
Q: You stayed in that same seat the entire recital?
A: I went and got my--I stood for a while at the entry when I came back from getting flowers.
Q: Did you ever sit down somewhere else?
A: No.
Q: "Now" you gave Sydney flowers at the recital. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that in the school?
A: Outside.
Q: Okay. And you had your picture taken with Sydney.
A: Yes.
Q: Was that in the school?
A: Outside.
Q: And how much time would you say you spent with Sydney at the recital?
A: Well, they were back and forth from the seats, so whatever time they were with us at the seats and--you know, so whatever time that was.
Q: I think you indicated the recital ended about 6:30, quarter of 7:00?
A: That's a total guess, yes.
Q: Okay. And you were there on time?
A: I mean-
Q: Start of it?
A: I was there five or seven minutes after 5:00, you know, 10 minutes after 5:00 maybe.
Q: And for that whole approximately hour and a half you never spoke to Nicole?
A: No, other than, as I told you before, we kinda looked at each other when Sydney was dancing and, you know, acknowledged that she was beautiful to one another.
Q: That was acknowledged with a look back and forth?
A: Yeah, we both -- I kinda mouthed she was beautiful, and Nicole was, you know, smiling, and you know, "She's gorgeous" or something. I don't know, it was just--acknowledged that our daughter was beautiful.
Q: Okay. Other than that, no conversation at the recital?
A: Correct.
Q: Any conversation outside the school after the recital with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: And when you made the call that evening about 8:45 to Sydney, Nicole didn't say a word to you?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And in fact I think-
A: Not that I know of. She may have said, "I'll get her," you know, something mundane, but there was no conversation.
Q: But you just asked if Sydney was asleep yet or not?
A: Yes. "Is Sidney still up," I might have said, or, "Is Sydney asleep," or, "Is she still up," or something.
Q: Okay. I think you also indicated, by the quick response you got by Sydney picking up the phone, you got the impression that Nicole was in Sydney's bedroom with her?
A: Or vice versa. Maybe Sydney was in bed with Nicole, which is quite normal.
Q: Going to June 13th, did you speak to Sydney or Justin at all that day?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you see Sydney or Justin at all that day?
A: No.
Q: Other than any attorneys, on the 13th did you have any discussions with anybody about where you were, what you were doing on the night of June 12th?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: Did you have any discussion with anybody on the 13th other than attorneys regarding your possible involvement in Ron or Nicole's deaths?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: Okay.
A: Other than the police.
Q: Right.
A: Whatever their questions were.
Q: Okay. But you didn't discuss the night of June 12th with anybody again?
A: No.
Q: On the 13th did you ever leave your house again that day or that night?
A: No.
Q: On June 14th did you continue to watch the coverage regarding the deaths of Nicole and Ron?
A: I may have. You know, in the morning I may have, but I'm not sure.
Q: Okay. Do you recall any evidence or anything that was discussed on the 14th that you saw on TV?
A: As I told you before, there was a lot of things being said that-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: There is no evidence. Wait a minute. There is no evidence that's discussed. There's evidence only admitted to a trial.
Q: You know, this has been gone over. This is now at least the fifth time, and I am not going to put up with it anymore. I think this is harassing, I think it's abusive to Mr. Simpson, I think it's an outrage, and it isn't going to go on. So you can ask a couple more questions, but then I am going to terminate the deposition.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: Mr. Simpson, on the 14th would it be fair to say that there was the large group of the media outside your residence at Rockingham in the morning?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Were you able to leave your residence at Rockingham on the 14th without being detected by anybody at that residence?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did Mr. Kardashian pick you up around the corner when you left there?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And on the 16th after the funeral of Nicole when you were back at the Browns', do you recall switching your clothes with A.C. Cowlings?
A: No.
Q: You didn't?
A: No.
Q: you didn't switch any sort of outer garment either--with A.C for purposes of leaving the Browns'?
A: Maybe a coat.
Q: Okay. And did you have any discussion with A.C about him leaving in the limousine you had arrived in?
A: I'm not sure who did that, but somebody arranged for--No, not with A.C I didn't, no.
Q: Okay. And do you recall taking a limousine back from the funeral to the Browns'?
A: I don't recall anything that day, no.
Q: Okay. Do you recall any conversation with Robert Kardashian in the limousine on the way back from the funeral about making arrangements to get out of Browns' without being detected?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that, any conversation you had with Robert Kardashian at all.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well, do you recall Tonya Brown being in the car with you that day going back from the funeral?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall Denise Halicki being in the car with you that day going back from the funeral?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall Tonya's boyfriend Chris being in the car with you that day going back from the funeral?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall leaving Robert Kardashian's on the 17th without anybody other than A.C knowing you were leaving the premises?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. By the way, when you did leave the Browns' on the 16th, did you get back into the same limousine you had arrived there in?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you know how you got back to Kardashian's?
A: Drove.
Q: With whom?
A: I don't know. I'm sure Bob was with us.
Q: You don't know of anybody else?
A: No.
Q: Okay. On the 14th, other than your attorneys, did you have any discussions with anybody where you were or what you were doing on the night of the 12th? A: As I told you before, no, not that I recall.
Q: Okay. On the 15th, which would have been the day of Nicole's wake. did you have any discussions with anybody as to where you were or what you were doing the night of the 12th ?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: Do you recall attending the wake that night?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall any conversations you had with Cora Fishman at the wake?
A: I recall she was crying and I was hugging her at one point.
Q: Do you recall any conversation?
A: No. She was, you know, despondent, and so was I.
Q: Okay. Do you recall any conversation you might have had with Betsy Rocket?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you recall any conversation you might have had with Deanne LeBron?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall any conversation you had with Judy Brown that night at the wake?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me what she said to you and what you said to her?
A: I believe she said, "You didn't do this," and I said, "No. Judy. I loved Nicole," and then we hugged, and I don't know if I went to her house. We may have had a conversation at her house about the kids and stuff.
Q: And what day was that?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall being at the Browns' on the 15th after the wake?
A: I don't recall. I know one of the days I was there, and I just don't recall which day it was.
Q: The 16th, do you recall going to the cemetery after the funeral mass for Nicole?
A: I recall getting there, yes.
Q: Do you recall going to Browns' house after that funeral service?
A: Not really.
Q: And as of the night of the 16th after the funeral, I believe you indicated--or even the morning of the 17th, indicated up to that point you never thought you'd be arrested for these murders. Is that correct?
A: I don't think that was on my mind, no.
Q: Okay. At any time between the 13th and 17th?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: Okay. Do you recall having any conversation with Lou and Juditha Brown on the evening of the 16th after the funeral?
A: I recall having a conversation with them. I just don't know what day it was.
Q: Okay. Do you recall where this conversation took place?
A: I believe it was in their bedroom.
Q: And do you recall who was there between--besides yourself and Lou and Judy, if anybody?
A: I know at one point Arnelle.
Q: Okay. And could you tell me the substance of this conversation?
A: I told them I was thinking about moving down to Laguna so that the kids and us all could be close.
Q: Okay. In fact you had called Lou and Judy back into the bedroom to talk to you, had you not?
A: I don't recall that, no.
Q: Okay. And did you say anything to them
other than you might be moving down to Laguna?
A: Other than--That was the substance of what I talked to them about, yes.
Q: Okay. Did you talk at all about how Sydney and Justin were going to be raised?
A: I talked to them about moving to Laguna because I wanted them to be a part of Sydney and Justin's life, so Nicole's family could be a part of their life, so I told them I thought I was going to move down to Laguna.
Q: Okay. And did the subject of Arnelle playing a role in this move or this bringing up of Sydney and Justin come into the conversation at all?
A: It may have, but Arnelle--it may have.
Q: Okay. Do you recall at any time either at the wake or funeral saying to Betsy Rocket, just spontaneously saying to Betsy Rocket, "I loved her too much"?
A: To Betsy?
Q: Yes.
A: Not in particular, no.
Q: Do you recall saying spontaneously to Deanne LeBron, "I loved her too much"?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall saying to Judy Brown in
response to her question to you about whether you did this, "I loved her too much "?
A: Not too much, no. That I loved her and I didn't do it. I loved her.
Q: Do you recall saying to Cora Fishman, "I loved her too much"?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall saying to Faye Resnick, "I loved her too much"?
A: I don't recall seeing Faye, but no.
Q: Do you recall saying that to anybody either at the wake or the funeral, just, "I loved her too much"?
A: I know that was a general attitude I had, but I don't recall saying that to anybody, that "I loved her so much" or "I loved Nicole." That's why I was feeling the pain I was feeling.
Q: The October 25th, 1993 incident at Gretna Green. did you actually kick that door?
A: I think as she closed it, I kicked it, yes.
Q: And as of June 1994, did you know what Elvia's schedule was?
A: No.
Q: As of June 1994, what was Gigi's
schedule?
A: She worked during the week and was off on weekends.
Q: Okay. She would return Monday morning?
A: I don't know. I'm not sure. I think sometimes she may have come back Sunday night. I'm not sure, though.
Q: Okay. And you would normally park your Bronco on Ashford, I believe you indicated.
A: Yeah. I mean I parked it on both streets, but Ashford would be normally the street I parked it on.
Q: Okay. And I think you also indicated that you would normally drive the Bronco?
A: Well, I drove it a lot when I could, but, you know, I drove both cars probably equally as much.
Q: Okay. Mother's Day weekend when you drove down to Laguna, which car did you drive?
A: I'm pretty sure it would have been the Bentley.
Q: On the June 11th night when you went to the formal affair with Paula, which car did you drive?
A: I'm sure it was the Bentley.
Q: On June 12th when you went to the
recital, which car did you drive?
A: I believe it was the Bentley.
Q: On June 12th when you went to the McDonald's with Kato, which car did you drive?
A: I believe it was the Bentley.
Q: Does the Ashford gate close automatically once it's been opened?
A: No.
Q: Does the Rockingham gate close automatically once it's been opened?
A: Yes.
Q: Mr. Simpson, I think you indicated that you played golf on Saturday June 11th.
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. I mean, my God. Don't answer it.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you have any trouble gripping your clubs on Saturday?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer it. It's all been gone through.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you have any trouble getting in and out of sand traps?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Getting up to elevated greens?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that either.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Elevated tees?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that either.
MR. LEONARD: John.
MR. KELLY: Okay, stop now.
MR. PETROCELLI: Are we going-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He said "stop," and we will change the tape.
THE VIDE0GRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 2 of Volume IX. The time is approximately 3:35, and we are off the record.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 3:50. This is the beginning of tape No. 3 of Volume IX.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Where are all these videotapes, by the way?
MR. PETROCELLI: In the safe.
MR. KELLY: Rivera.
MR. PETROCELLI: They're in the safe.
THE WITNESS: Being edited by "Rivera Live."
MR. PETROCELLI: Not being duplicated.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We've got to make plans, you and I, to move them down when-
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, we're running out of room in the safe.
MR. KELLY: We rolling?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, you're up.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Simpson, at your Rockingham estate prior to January 1992, could you tell me as part of the alarm system there was a button to summon Westec Security directly?
A: Yes. There was a code also.
Q: Okay. So it was just--it wasn't a verbal command to have a Westec Security person come?
A: You didn't need to, no.
Q: It was like a panic button you could hit?
A: Yes, and a code -- a different code number you can hit that's sort of like a silent alarm.
Q: Okay. Other than the incident of 1984-85 where the windshield was cracked with a bat, do you recall any other time a Westec Security person showing up at your place at Rockingham?
A: Well, my alarm went off a lot, and so they'd show up for whatever reason, or call, and if no one was home, I guess they'd show up.
Q: Do you know any time they showed up as a result of Nicole hitting that button?
A: No.
Q: Okay. In the week of January 13th, 1994, January 13th being that Monday, can you think of any incident or event that caused you any scratches, abrasions or injuries on your left hand?
A: I have-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: January-
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I'm sorry. June. June. I misspoke. The week of June 13th, 1994.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: This has all been gone over as well.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. You mean after I got the bandage on my hand?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You are not talking about the cut back in Chicago?
MR. KELLY: Right.
Q: Other than that, was there any other incident with your left hand that caused any-
A: I don't know. I was carrying a lot of stuff. It was awkward to carry it. And then my son was doing his rassling. I rassled with him, and, you know, we kind of roughhoused a little bit at Kardashian's.
Q: Well, do you recall any injuries to your left hand?
A: Pardon me? I know I was bleeding at one point and had--and with blood on my bandage. I had to redo it, redress it, I guess.
Other than the bandage on the middle knuckle of the middle finger of your left hand, do you recall any other injury or anything to your left hand from rassling with your son?
A: Other than that there was blood there and I had to--on the outside and I had to rebandage it, other than that, no.
Q: Okay. Did you ever discuss with Nicole about building a home in-a house in Cabo?
A: I was doing that before Nicole and I got back together.
Q: Okay. Did you actually have architectural plans drawn up for that?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. On Saturday before Nicole and Ron's deaths, which would have been June 11th, did you call someone named Jasmine Guy?
A: I may have, yes.
Q: And who is Jasmine Guy?
A: An actress.
Q: And what was the purpose of you calling her?
A: I had met her previous to this. We talked on the phone from time to time.
Q: Okay. Do you know if you called her more than once?
A: I think in New York--I may have called her when I was in New York. One of the trips I was in New York, I may have called her.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether that was Saturday or Sunday?
A: When I was in New York, this was weeks previous to this.
Q: Well, I am asking you on Saturday, June 11th, or Sunday, June 12th, did you call her?
A: I don't know. I may have, but I don't know.
Q: Okay. Was there ever a time in June 1994 where Nicole left things outside her front or back door at Bundy so you didn't have to go inside the house to pick something up?
A: No.
Q: Was there ever a time in May l 994 that she did that?
A: No.
Q: April?
A: Not that I recall, no.
Q: Did that ever happen at any time on Monday?
A: Not that I recall, no.
Q: Did it ever happen at Gretna Green?
A: Not that I recall, no.
Q: Okay. You never called the police or Westec as a result of any time Nicole struck you, did you?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And the '89 agreement that you and Nicole signed in reference to your antenuptial, that wasn't reciprocal, was it?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole ever bruise, cut or injure you in any way?
A: I don't recall.
Q: And at one point you mentioned that Nicole started showing up at your country club.
A: Yes.
Q: And that was in, what, March of 1993?
A: Yes.
Q: Did that happen on more than one occasion?
A: Yes.
Q: And was that -- that was just down on the range. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And that's separate from the course?
A: Yes. It's right--the course goes around the range, and once I was-once it happened--maybe once or twice it happened when I was up in the bar.
Q: Okay. Total of how many times did it happen?
A: In the beginning, two or three times, and then she started taking golf lessons with her girlfriends, so quite often.
Q: Okay. And prior to that I think you had indicated in the late '80s and early '90s golf was an issue because you liked playing it so much. Correct?
A: I don't know if it was an issue, but I played golf a lot, yes, and sometimes it bugged her a little bit.
Q: Okay. Was there ever a time that any of your neighbors had to--any of your neighbors at Rockingham had to have--file a police report because
of Nicole showing up there at night?
A: I don't know that she ever showed up at any neighbor's house at night.
Q: No. From her showing up at Rockingham or being in the neighborhood at night.
A: I don't think it's against the law for her to be in the neighborhood at night.
Q: Okay. Do you know if any neighbor ever called the police from her showing up at your residence and being in your neighborhood at Rockingham late at night?
A: As I said, I certainly don't know of it. I don't know why they would.
Q: Okay. Do you know if anybody ever called the police on you for being over at Gretna Green at night?
A: I know one neighbor called and said they didn't know who they saw on the sidewalk, and they called the police. They testified in the trial.
Q: Okay. But that never happened with anybody calling the police about Nicole being over around your place?
A: I wouldn't know. I don't think so.
Q: Okay. Did Nicole ever kick in your door at Rockingham?
A: Oh, she's kicked a door or two in her day, yes.
Q: Okay. Did it ever cause you to call 911?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you ever have to go to the hospital because of any encounter with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: As far as you know, did she ever look in your window at Rockingham late at night?
A: It would be tough outside the wall to look in my window, but I know she was at my gate a few times and went home.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Nothing further.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Same stipulation that we've had with the other witnesses?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Now, one other question: Do we want to take a day before we start? Are you leaving town?
MR. KELLY: No.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Before we start--
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, the problem is we have a 11:00 o'clock hearing on Thursday; we have a 3:00 o'clock tomorrow afternoon, so it would be easier to knock it off-
MR. KELLY: Tomorrow would be better to do it in the morning.
MR. PETROCELLI:--if we can finish it before noon.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Let's go off. Are we off? Let's go off.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Let's go off, Rod.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 3:59.
(Discussion held off the record.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now. The time is approximately 4:00 o'clock. This concludes the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume IX. The number of videotapes used was three. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 4:00 o 'clock.
(ENDING TIME: 4:00 P.M.)
I DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT.
SUBSCRIBED AT CALIFORNIA. THIS DAY OF . 19_
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON