SHARON RUFO,
Plaintiff
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al.
Defendant
FREDRIC GOLDMAN,
Plaintiff
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al,
Defendant
LOUIS H. BROWN,
Plaintiff,
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON
Defendant
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Here begins videotape No. 1 in the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume VIII in the consolidated, cases of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs Orenthal James Simpson, in the Superior Court, State of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is sc 031947.
Today's date is Monday, February 26, 1996.The time is approximately 9:l4. This deposition is being taken at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California, and was made at the request of plaintiff of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp.
The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed by Coleman. Haas, Martin & Schwab of Los Angeles, California.
Would counsel please identify yourselves and state whom you represent.
MR. BREWER: Michael Brewer for Plaintiff Sharon Rufo.
MR. GROMAN: Arthur Groman for Plaintiff Fred Goldman.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly for Plaintiff Brown.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Phil Baker for Mr. Simpson.
MR. LEONARD: Daniel Leonard for OJ. Simpson.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Bob Baker for OJ. Simpson, held hostage, Day 8.
MR. BREWER: Not by me.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, having been previously sworn was examined and testified further as follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Good morning, Mr. Simpson.
A: Good morning, Mr. Brewer.
Q: Mr. Simpson, since Friday have you reviewed any documents to prepare for today s session?
A: No.
Q: Have you reviewed any photographs?
A: No.
Q: Other than your attorneys, have you spoken with anyone concerning your deposition here today?
A: No.
Q: Has anyone read anything to you?
A: No.
Q: Okay. I want to just go back to where we ended on Friday. We were talking about you coming to Rockingham and being advised by either Detective Phillips or some other detective regarding blood that was found at the Rockingham premises. Do you remember that testimony?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Was it your understanding that Rockingham, when you got there, that Rockingham was declared a crime scene?
A: I didn't have an understanding one way or the other.
Q: When you got back to Rockingham from Chicago. did you see any yellow tape anywhere on your property?
A: Not that I had noticed.
Q: When you first got back to Rockingham at some point, were you handcuffed?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you describe how that happened?
A: I got out of the car, I started walking towards my front door, and a police officer said he couldn't let me go in, and, "Mr. Simpson, I've been told I need to handcuff you," or words to that effect.
Q: Okay. Now, you got out of the car and you were walking towards your front door. Did you have your grip with you at the time?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have any other luggage with you at the time?
A: In the car we were--Yes. Yes, there was-- I assumed everybody else was getting out with me because they wouldn't let us drive on, and they were getting out with luggage, and I just was trying to get in the house, so...
Q: Okay. The only luggage that you had on your person. though, was the grip that you were carrying. Is that correct?
A: On my person as I got out of the car. Yes.
Q: Okay. And were you expecting to be arrested when you got back to Rockingham?
A: No.
Q: Were you expecting to be handcuffed when you got back to Rockingham?
A: No.
Q: At the time that you arrived at Rockingham, were you aware of any information that the police had which had a tendency to implicate your involvement in these crimes?
A: No.
Q: When you were handcuffed, what did you say, if anything?
A: I don't know. I think I inquired, "What are you doing? What's going on here? "
Q: And what did he say?
A: I don't recall. He just said he was following orders. I'm--I shouldn't be saying this because I don't really recall the conversation the officer and I had at that point. All I know is I was kind of bewildered.
Q: Was this a uniformed officer?
A: That's correct.
Q: Was this a black uniformed officer?
A: That's correct.
Q: And as you were walking--were you walking up the driveway when he stopped you?
A: I think he stopped the car and just walked up the driveway with me.
Q: Okay. And at that point he handcuffed you?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Do you recall protesting or yelling or saying anything when you were handcuffed?
A: Yelling?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: The only thing you recall saying was something--
A: "What's going on?"
Q: "What's going on?"
A: "What is this about? Why are you doing this?" or words to that effect, yes.
Q: And do you recall anything at all that the police officer said to you?
A: No. Not really.
Q: Okay. Do you recall saying anything else to the police officer after you were handcuffed other than, "What's going on?"
A: I knew I wanted to talk to somebody because he wasn't in charge, and I guess they--I--once again I'm real sketchy here, but I'm assuming that he--
MR.ROBERT BAKER: Don't assume.
THE WITNESS: I can't assume. I know I wanted to find out -- needed to talk to somebody that was in charge.
BY MR.BREWER:
Q: I assume that you were surprised when you were handcuffed?
A: Yes.
Q: Would shocked be a better word or better description of how you felt?
A: I think I already was in shock.
Q: Well, in terms of you being handcuffed, that had certain implications in your mind, didn't it?
A: My mind was where my kids was and what had happened. That was probably the prevalent thing that was on my mind. You know, I thought this was just--I didn't know what this was. I just wanted to talk to someone in charge.
Q: Okay. You wanted to find out what happened.
A: Yeah, what was going on.
Q: Okay. And you felt, as the ex-husband of Nicole Brown Simpson, that you had a right to obtain information relative to her death. Is that correct?
A: I don't think--I don't know--I don't think any of those thoughts went into my head like you're saying. All I know is that Nicole had been murdered, from what I understood; my kids were somewhere; my daughter, oldest daughter, was in a bad way; I had no idea how my other son was; police were at my house, and I was --other than that, I can't tell you what process my mind was going through.
Q: Okay. So you were really focused on your family and your kids and just the loss of Nicole again at the Rockingham--
A: I don't know what I was focusing on. I just wanted to know what was going on. And focus may have been what I wasn't, was focused.
Q: Well, the last thing on your mind was the fact that you were going to be handcuffed and arrested when you got back. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: Now, at some point after you were handcuffed, did you ask that the handcuffs be removed?
A: Yes.
Q: Who did you ask?
A: I think my lawyers had gotten to me by then. and they went to find who would take them off or something, and they were removed.
Q: Okay. Did your lawyers come over to the location where you were being handcuffed?
A: I don't think so. I think after they handcuffed me, I went and stood by a doll house, and then things started happening. People were coming and going, and I was trying to, you know--I knew Skip was supposed to be there. I knew--Skip was there with me, and I was just, you know--I don't know. I was just--you know, whatever was happening, was happening.
Q: Okay. So after you were handcuffed, you went over and stood by a doll house by yourself?
A: No. I think a police officer was there.
Q: Okay. And then at any point did you ever personally ask that the handcuffs be removed?
A: I asked the guy, why is he handcuffing me. He said he was just doing what he was ordered. And I said, "Well, find who's in charge," and evidently somebody went off to find who was in charge. By the time that person came up my lawyer was there, and they took the handcuffs off of me.
Q: Okay. So you asked the uniformed police officer to find someone who was in charge. Correct?
A: Something to that effect, because it was--he said he was only doing what he was told to do.
Q: Okay. After you made that request, did someone come over to you and talk to you who you believed to be in charge at that point?
A: At some point, and I can't tell you when, Vannatter showed up and, consequently, took my handcuffs off.
Q: You were still handcuffed when Vannatter showed up?
A: Correct.
Q: Did you personally ask Vannatter to have the handcuffs removed?
A: I believe my lawyer did.
Q: Okay. You didn't ask him, though.
A: I believe my lawyer did.
Q: Approximately how long were you at the Rockingham premises before you were transported downtown to give a statement?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Was it a matter of a half hour? Couple hours? Three hours?
A: I have absolutely no idea.
Q: Okay. Do you remember anything else you did other than stand by the doll house being handcuffed before you were transported downtown?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember talking to Detective Vannatter at all relative to the facts and circumstances concerning Nicole's death?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: While he is still at Rockingham?
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Yeah, all of this is while you were still at Rockingham before you were transported down to the Los Angeles Police Department.
A: I remember Vannatter, and I don't --I can't really recall what the conversation was about. I knew it was about the handcuffs and about taking to the police or an interview or something, but my lawyers were there doing most of the talking at that time.
Q: Were you standing in close proximity to where Vannatter was talking to your lawyers?
A: I believe so. They kinda moved around. They were there. They moved. I believe at some points in times I was.
Q: Did you overhear some portions of their discussions?
A: Not really, no.
Q: Was it your understanding there was some discussion relative to you going down to the police station and giving a statement?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall any discussion between you and Detective Vannatter concerning blood that was found at Rockingham?
A: Vannatter, not really. He may have said something to my lawyer about stuff there, but I can't recall. I don't really recall.
Q: Do you recall overhearing some discussion between Vannatter and your lawyers concerning blood found at Rockingham?
A: I just knew--I don't--I can't recall. I know one guy said something to me, and then they were talking about something, and it was my impression when I was going downtown that blood or something was found around my property. That was my impression. Exactly how I got that impression was just whatever was going on that-- during that period of time.
Q: When you say some guy mentioned something to me," you're referring now to the Phillips or the other detectives --
A: Yeah.
Q: statement to you?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did that statement also include or imply the notion that blood was found inside your Bronco?
A: I don't know. I have absolutely no idea. They were just saying something was there, and I wanted the handcuffs off, and they wanted to talk.
Q: Okay. So would it be fair to say that at the time that you left Rockingham to go down to the Los Angeles Police Department to give a statement, that the only areas where you had any information relative to the location of blood was on the driveway at Rockingham?
A: I don't know if I had--I just--I saw things there, so--
Q: You say things." White cards?
A: I don't know if they were white. They were markers, though, and outside of that and what this guy said to me and whatever was being said at the time, I--that wasn't my focus.
Q: Okay. Well, you understood the white card--the white markers that you observed were identifying blood or some type of evidence in the driveway, didn't you?
A: No.
Q: You had no idea whatsoever?
A: No, not really.
Q: Okay. I mean, you've seen white markers used like that in television and news reports in the past, haven't you?
A: I don't know if I have.
Q: Mr. Simpson, as you were still at Rockingham and became aware that blood was found on your property, did you begin to make some association in your mind between the cut that you had--or the blood that you had observed the previous evening on the 1h and the blood that was found at Rockingham on the driveway?
A: No
Q: Had no association whatsoever?
A: No.
Q: Didn't even cross your mind that possibly that was blood that you left the previous evening, on the 1h?
A: Nothing about the blood crossed my mind at all. I was thinking about my kids and what might have happened to Nicole.
Q: And by the way, at the time that you were at Rockingham thinking about what might have happened with Nicole, you understood that this was -- she was probably murdered. Right?
A: Yeah, I think I was trying to digest that, yes.
Q: Okay. And at that time you didn't know whether the means of committing the murder were a gun, a knife, strangulation, anything of that nature, did you?
A: I don't know if I thought about it at that time, but I didn't. correct.
Q: Okay. Do you recall thinking about how she was murdered?
A: At that time, no.
Q: : Now, when you went from Rockingham down to the police department, you went there specifically give a statement to the police. Is that correct?
A: No.
Q: Well, what was your purpose in going down to the Los Angeles Police Department?
A: To do whatever they wanted me to do to -- so that I could, you know, go and see my kids and find out what's going on.
Q: Well, did you think you were going down there to give--to make some kind of identification of Nicole's body?
A: I didn't know.
Q: You had no idea why you were going to the police department?
A: I knew they wanted to talk to me, but I didn't know what else they wanted to do, no.
Q: Okay. I mean, you understood they wanted to talk to you because you were possibly a suspect, didn't you, Mr. Simpson?
A: Yeah, I think that probably crossed my mind, yes.
Q: Okay. And then as you were driving down to the police department, you were beginning to think about the events of the previous evening because you knew you were going to be asked about those events. Right?
A: No, that's incorrect.
Q: Well, did you think about what you had done the previous evening as you were driving down to the police department?
A: No.
Q: Did you begin to make an association in the car between the blood that was purported being found at Rockingham and the blood you noticed on your finger the previous evening?
A: No.
Q: Made no association whatsoever?
A: No.
Q: Did you begin to think about any of your activities in the last 24 hours as you were in the car headed down to the police department?
A: No.
Q: What were the--what was the focus of your thoughts, if any, as you were en route to the police department to give a statement in connection with these murder?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, he didn't ever say that he knew he was going to give a statement. He knew they were going to talk to him.
MR. BREWER: Let me rephrase it.
Q: What was your thought process, if any, as you were headed down to the police department to talk to the police in connection with these murders?
A: My kids.
(Daniel Petrocelli enters the deposition.)
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: And your "kids" meaning what?
A: All of my kids.
Q: Well, how about--
A: Where they were. I probably thought if--you know, like my other kids, my younger kids, if they were all right, and I was just trying to, you know--I don't know if I digested that Nicole was dead. It was just kind of a hard thing to digest.
Q: When you say your kids, not knowing whether they were taken care of, had you made arrangements to take care of your children before you are en route back from Chicago?
A: I think when I talked to my daughter, they were going to go get them and take them to Laguna. Uh--
Q: Okay. So--Go ahead.
A: That, but my daughter was in sort of a bad way, my older daughter was in sort of a bad way, so I was a little concerned about her, too. Not a little. Just as much as concerned about her. I was pretty concerned about my older daughter, because when I spoke to her, she was in a bad way.
Q: Did you specifically ask Arnelle to take care of the children?
A: I think they said they were going to get them. I said, "Go get them immediately," and it may have been mentioned that they were going to take them to Laguna. I'm not really sure if that was mentioned in that particular conversation.
Q: Laguna meaning the Browns?
A: Yes.
Q: And I take it you had great confidence in the Browns' ability to care for your children at that time?
A: At that time, yes.
Q: So you knew that if they were successfully transported to the Browns they would be well taken care of by family members?
A: Yeah, they aren't my family, but my -- their family was a lot closer than my family, so yes, was confident in that.
Q: And after you had asked Arnelle to make arrangements to transport the kids down to Laguna, did you ever obtain any confirmation that in fact they had arrived in Laguna?
A: I don't know about arrived, but I knew that they had gone. A.C had taken them and evidently had gotten them there.
Q: Did you learn that before you got to Rockingham?
A: I don't know.
Q: You have no memory whatsoever with respect to when you learned
that A.C had transported the kids down to Laguna?
A: No, but I knew as the day went on that he had, and I don't know if Skip Taft or Cathy Randa or somebody else had communicated that to me.
Q: Okay. So I take it that once you learned that A.C had transported the kids to Laguna, you were satisfied that the kids for the time being were taken care of.
A: Yeah, the minute A.C or Arnelle had gotten them, I would have assumed they were in good hands.
Q: And did you learn that information before you left to go down to the police department to talk to the police?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You don't know when that was in relationship to talking to the police?
A: No.
Q: You don't know whether it was before or after?
A: No.
Q: Now, when you got down to the police department, you agreed to talk to Detectives Vannatter and Lange--is that correct?--without the presence of your lawyer.
A: Yeah.
Q: And, Mr. Simpson, you knew that in talking to them, they were going to question you relative to the murder of your wife and another man. Is that correct?
A: I assumed that would have been the subject, yes.
Q: And I take it this is the first time in your life that anyone had ever questioned you in connection with a murder. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you were going to be questioned without your lawyer. Is that correct?
A: Well, they--Yes.
Q: And you understood. sir the seriousness of the conversation or the statement that you were going to have with the detectives. Right?
A: For the most part.
Q: And in fact before they started, they read you your constitutional rights. Is that true?
A: The second time. They had read me the rights at --at Rockingham.
Q: Okay. When did they first read you your rights at Rockingham?
A: Whenever Vannatter or somebody came up.
Q: Was it Vannatter that read you your rights at Rockingham.
A: I believe so, but--
Q: Were you still--
A:--I'm not a hundred percent sure of that.
Q: I'm sorry. Did you complete your answer?
A: I'm not a hundred percent sure of that, but l believe it was Vannatter, yes.
Q: And did--were you still handcuffed at the time that they read you your rights?
A: Yes.
Q: And you understood those rights. Correct, Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: You understood the implication of Detective Vannatter reading you those rights, didn't you?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, what do you mean by "the implication"? I don't understand "the implication."
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Well, that anything that you said to Detective Vannatter or Lange or anyone else could be used against you. You understood that. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And then when you got down to the Los Angeles Police Department, they read you your constitutional rights again. Is that true?
A: Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.
Q: Okay. And you didn't have any questions with respect to what it meant when they read those rights to you. Right?
A: Well, at one point they started reading the rights, and I said something to them, and they stopped the tape and then they started over again. They explained something to me, and then they started over again.
Q: Well, on the tape.that we have a transcript of, you were read your constitutional rights. Is that true?
A: On that tape? Yeah, the second time they started it, yes.
Q: Okay. And at the end of reading you your rights, they asked you whether you understood those rights. Correct?
A: Right.
Q: And you indicated to them that you did understand those rights. Is that true?
A: Correct.
Q: And you were being honest with them when you told them that. Is that true?
A: Correct.
Q: And in fact you understood, Mr. Simpson, that anything you said during the course of that statement could and would be used against you if you were tried in this case. You understood that.
A: Yes.
Q: And you understood that it was very important, in connection with giving the statement, to be honest and truthful about the questions and answers that you gave. Is that correct?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you also understood that it was important to be accurate about the information that you provided to these detectives during the course of their examination. Is that true?
A: Yeah, we talked about that, and I said, "I'll be as accurate as I can." I was a little tired at the time.
Q: Okay. But you understood in your mind that it was important to be accurate. Right?
A: Well, I told them I would be as accurate as I could.
Q: Okay. And they had asked you questions, as you testified earlier, off the tape and then on the tape, and then I think they turned it off again. Is that true?
A: That's correct.
0: It didn't matter to you whether it was being tape-recorded or it wasn't being tape-recorded; you were going to be honest in your answers. Is that true?
A: I wanted to be honest and as accurate as I could be, and it didn't matter to me if it was taped or not.
Q: Irrespective of whether that tape was running, you were going to be as accurate as possible?
A: As I could be. I was tired, and I was a bit concerned that both sides had at the time, and, yes, I was going to be as accurate as I could be.
Q: Well, did you ever tell the detectives that you were concerned about your ability to provide an accurate statement because you were tired?
A: They said it to me, and I said I'll try the best I could, because they were very -- they really wanted to talk and I really wanted to get out of there -- and as I said before, that's why they stopped the tape the first time and Vannatter said, Hey, OJ., we're just trying to get you to go home, so, you know, do the best you can." I said, I'll do the best I can. So -- but, you know, they stopped it because they said something about having a lawyer present.
Q: Was there anything that you were aware of at the time that you provided the statement which caused you to have an inability to recollect significant events from the night before?
A: I was tired, so--and I was in, I gather, shock, but I thought I'd do the best job I can do, and that's what I attempted to do, yes.
Q: You weren't on any medication, were you?
A: Other than maybe some Motrin, but other than that--
Q: Does that affect your memory?
A: I doubt it.
Q: Does it effect your ability to recall events from the preceding 24 hours?
A: Certainly no more so than not sleeping and being tired and other circumstances.
Q: It doesn't affect your ability to provide honest and truthful information, does it?
A: Not Motrin, I don't believe so.
Q: Okay. So other than the fact you were tired and perhaps somewhat in shock from losing your ex-wife, you can't think of any other reasons why you wouldn't be able to recall significant details from the preceding 24 hours. Is that a fair statement?
A: I think that's a tough question to answer because I would have no idea what's significant.
Q: How about your whereabouts at the time of the murders?
A: I didn't know what time the murders were.
Q: You had no information about that. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: So you didn't know whether those murders occurred at 8:00 o'clock, 9:00 o'clock, l0:00 o'clock, 11:00 o'clock, 12:00 o'clock. You had no idea.
A: Well, I knew they couldn't have occurred a little before 9:00 o'clock, so I knew it couldn't have occurred before then.
Q: Okay. So you knew that the murders had to occur at least after 9:00 o'clock. Is that true?
A: Correct.
Q: When you spoke with Sydney. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And did you know whether there was -- they occurred before 12:00?
A: As I told you, I had no idea.
Q: Okay. So as far as you knew, you could have been at Rockingham, in the limousine on the way to the airport, in the air on the way to Chicago or in fact in Chicago at the time of the murders based upon what you knew at the time you gave this statement. Is that a fair statement?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. And also when you gave this statement, Mr. Simpson, you had no information that blood from the murder was left at the Bundy crime scene. True?
A: Yes.
Q: And you had no information, Mr. Simpson, with respect to how Nicole and Mr. Goldman were in fact murdered when you gave this statement to the police. Is that true?
A: That is correct, yes.
Q: The only information that you had relative to any evidence was a statement from either Detective Phillips or some other detective that blood had been found at Rockingham. True?
A: Found there, found here, yes.
Q: What do you mean, found here"?
A: Rockingham.
Q: At Rockingham?
A: Yes. He says, you know, There's blood there. There's blood here. We got a problem, was the way he worded it. "Well, we got sort of a problem," was the way he worded it.
Q: Prior to actually sitting down and talking with Detectives Vannatter and Lange, did you ever draw any association in your mind between the blood that was reportedly found at Rockingham and the blood that you had noticed on your pinkie the preceding evening?
A: No.
Q: Not once did you think about that?
A: No, not at that time. no.
Q: Okay. Now, Mr. Simpson, one of the areas that you were questioned about during the course of this talk or statement that you gave to the police was a cut that was on your left joint of your middle finger. Is that correct?
A: During the course of the whole interview?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And the reason why that topic came up was because Detective Vannatter or Lange or both had observed that you had a cut on the left joint, the joint of your left middle finger. True?
A: No.
Q: Did you volunteer that information?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall the context in which the discussion came up?
A: They asked me about a bandage I had.
Q: On your middle finger?
A: Well, it was on my--yeah, on my hand.
Q: This is the cut that you claim you did -- you had in Chicago. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. And they saw a bandage on your left middle finger at that time?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: They asked you about that bandage?
A: Yes.
Q: Was this before or after they had told you that they found blood at Rockingham?
A: Well, as I said, I didn't know--I don't believe Vannatter or Lange ever told me that.
Q: That they found blood at Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You knew that they found blood at Rockingham because you were told earlier by Detective Phillips or some other detective at the time that they identified this bandage on your finger. Right?
A: Well, the guy says--said that to me, yes.
Q: Okay. When you say, the guy...said that to me," what do you mean by that?
A: The guy. It wasn't a girl. It was a guy.
Q: "The guy...said Are we talking about the blood that you were told about or the bandage on your finger?
THE WITNESS: What was his question, please?
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Let me just reask it. I want to make sure we're clear, on the same wavelength. Someone identified or pointed out that you had a bandage on your middle finger. Right?
A: Someone asked me about it, yes.
Q: Okay. And that was in the context of giving a statement to the police. Right?
A: Well, it was not in the--it's not in the thing, but, yes, it was in the context of just talking to the police.
Q: Okay. And you knew at the time that you were having this discussion about a wound to your left middle finger that blood had been found at Rockingham. You knew that?
A: Yeah, the guy told me there was blood here and blood there.
Q: Okay. And when you say "the guy told me," we are now talking about Phillips--
A: Yes.
Q: -- or some other detective. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And at the time that they asked you about the cut on your finger, they had asked you how you did it. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And I take it that you knew the implication of that question at the time you were being asked about it?
A: I wasn't thinking about implications. I was just trying to answer
their questions.
Q: Okay. And the question about how you cut your finger was asked of you in the context of discussing blood that was found at Rockingham, wasn't it?
A: I don't believe so. I think they just asked me a question, and I answered it. I don't -- you know, if you let me read the thing, I can tell you if it was in the context.
Q: Okay. Why don't we go to your statement. Page 15--
MR. PETROCELLI: Is that the marked one?
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: -- Okay?
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Has it been marked?
MR. BREWER: It has not been marked
MR. KELLY: Do you have copies of it, Mike?
MR. BREWER: Well, mine's marked. Is yours unmarked Mr. Baker?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes.
MR. BREWER: Okay. Maybe we can go off the record and make copies of
yours and--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Sure, of course.
MR. BREWER: All right. Let's go off the record.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is
approximately 9:42.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 9:46.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Okay. Mr. Simpson, we made copies, and we are going to mark as next in order 101, I believe, the statement that you gave to the police department, and that statement is dated 6-13-94. The time of the interview is noted to be military time 1335 hours.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit l01 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: When is the last time you reviewed this statement?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: And other than your discussions with counsel, you can certainly answer that.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: I don't want to know when you talked about it with your lawyers. I want to know when is the last time you reviewed the statement.
A: Make two weeks ago.
Q: Did you take a look at it over the weekend?
A: No.
Q: Did you glance through it over the weekend at all?
A: No.
Q: Do you have a copy, your own personal copy of the statement?
A: If I do, I don't know where it is.
Q: Now, we're talking about the question that you were asked relative to the cut on your hand, your finger, during the course of this statement. And by the way, Mr. Simpson, when you were giving this statement to the Los Angeles Police Department, you understood or believed that you were the number one target in connection with this murder investigation. Isn't that true?
A: I don't think I had those kind of thoughts at the time, no.
Q: Okay. Let's turn to page 31 on your statement, Mr. Simpson. Look on lines 15 through 18. Reading from line 15, You understand the reason we're talking to you because you're the ex-husband." Suspect: I know, I'm the...number one target." Did you say that, Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes. I always figured that husbands or ex-husbands are, but I didn't have that thought process going at this time when they were interviewing me earlier until he told me why he was talking to me.
Q: When you told the detectives during the course of an interview in connection with these two murder investigations that you were the number one target, were you accurately reporting your state of mind?
A: I don't think so. I think just from reading books and everything, a husband is somebody who's always a target. I didn't know if they had someone else they were talking to. I didn't know if I was the number one target in this case. I just know in all cases normally that is the case, that they talk to the husbands or boyfriends.
Q: Okay. So just from your life experience, you know that in cases where there is a wife or ex-wife killed, that the ex-husband is always a target of a murder investigation. Is that true?
A: A target, yes. Yes.
Q: Okay. And you were Nicole's ex-husband. Right?
A: Yeah. But I didn't know if they had someone else that they were talking to or not.
Q: Well irrespective of whether they had other people they were talking to, based upon what you just told us, you understood that you were a target in connection with this murder investigation?
A: At the time I just knew they had to talk to me.
Q: Okay.
A: Yeah.
Q: In addition to wanting to talk to you, you knew that there was blood that they found in Rockingham?
A: By this time, yes.
Q: Okay. Now going to page l5, Mr. Simpson, starting at Line 8, they asked you, Okay. How did you get the injury on your hand?" Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, that's the injury to your left middle finger at the joint. Is that true?
A: Correct.
Q: And then you go on to describe what you did in Chicago.
A: Yes.
Q: And moving down to line 17 -- actually 16, they say, "Is that how you cut it?" And you answer, "Mmnh, it was cut before, but I think I just opened it up again. Do you see that statement, Mr. Simpson?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Did I read that correctly?
A: You didn't read all of it, but what you read was correct.
Q: Let me read all of it so we're clear: I don't--I'm not sure. I'm not sure, I didn't feel it. Did I read all of it?
A: Yes.
Q: And, Mr. Simpson, during the course of talking to these detectives in connection with this murder investigation where you were asked about the origin of a cut to your left finger, you told them that it was cut before. True?
A: I told them I wasn't sure, and that's what I believe that this statement said. I saw some blood the night before, and since I didn't feel anything or see where it was coming from, I gather the next day when they started asking me questions I assumed it may have been from the same place, but I didn't see a cut or I didn't see where the blood was coming from, but I assumed I was cut.
Q: Okay. Well you've testified already that the blood that you saw was on your pinkie. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You didn't even see a cut on your pinkie. Correct?
A: I didn't see a cut anywhere.
Q: And that was the night before you didn't see a cut anywhere?
A: Correct.
Q: You didn't see any blood from your left middle finger, did you?
A: No. I just saw blood on the counter.
Q: And you didn't see blood anywhere near your left middle finger.
True?
A: Well, that's relatively near. I guess if it's on your pinkie, so that near your middle finger, yes.
Q: Okay. And that's the closest that you observed blood on your hand, was on your pinkie, relative to your left middle finger. Is that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. And when you told the police that you cut it before, were you guessing?
A: No--yes, exactly. That's exactly what I was doing.
Q: So in the context of talking about the origin of this cut during this murder investigation, you started guessing about the origin?
A: No. I told them I cut it in Chicago but it may have been cut the night before because I saw blood, and there was no other cuts on my hand at the time, so I assumed that it may have come from the same area.
Q: Mr. Simpson, did you cut your finger on June l2, l994, the left middle finger at the joint?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: When you say, "Not that I know of," are you still uncertain as you sit here today whether you cut the left middle finger at the joint area on June 12, 1994?
A: It's not that I know of.
Q: When you say, "not that I know of, are you able to definitively rule it out one way or the other?
A: I didn't see any cuts, but I saw blood, a drop of blood on my counter and a drop of blood on one of my fingers. I didn't know where it came from. So not that I know of.
Q: When you were talking with these detectives, did you assume that the cut that you had received--Strike that. When you were talking with these detectives in connection with this murder investigation, did you assume that the blood that you observed on your pinkie was also blood that you had dripped all over the driveway at Rockingham?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Wait a minute. Don't answer that question. Dripped all over the driveway? No.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Dripped on the driveway.
A: I didn't--You know, it was hard to assume anything. I didn't--I don't think l was assuming anything. They were asking questions. Some questions I had no answers and I didn't know the answers to, so--and I was just trying to answer them as best I could under the circumstances.
Q: Okay. And you knew at the time that you were being asked these questions, it was in connection with a murder investigation. Right?
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You asked that 15 times.
MR. BREWER: 14.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay. I agree: 14.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Okay. Now, Mr. Simpson, going on, you talk about on line 24--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Same page?
MR. BREWER: Same page.
Q: -- I recall bleeding at my house." This is when they have asked -- Let me read 22 so we have a context: That's okay. Do you--do you recall bleeding at all.. .in your truck, in the Bronco? And your answer: I recall bleeding at my house, and then...I went to the Bronco. The last thing I did before I left, when I was rushing, I went and got my phone out of the Bronco." And they, mmnh-mmnh, which is the detectives. Subject: Well, whatever that is, reading through line 28. Now, the recollection that you identify on line 24, recalling that you bled at your house. is that what you've already described to us: The blood on the pinkie and the blood drop on the counter top?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. When you were talking with the detectives, did you then recall bleeding on your driveway?
A: No.
Q: Did you recall bleeding in the foyer?
A: No.
Q: By the way, Mr. Simpson. the areas -- you know where they found blood--as you sit here today. You know where the found blood on your property. Is that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: All of the areas where they found blood were areas that you were in on June 12, 1994, that you had walked past or walked over. Is that true?
A: At some time or another, yes.
Q: And, for example, you had walked up the driveway that evening. Is that true?
A: Correct.
Q: And you had walked in the foyer. Is that true?
A: Correct.
Q: And they found blood in the foyer. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And they found blood in the front entrance area right before the foyer --is that true?--where the benches are?
A: I believe so.
Q: And they found blood on the driveway near the Bentley.True?
A: That's correct.
Q: And they found blood at the entrance gate On Rockingham. Isn't that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: Those were all areas where you were. Right?
A: I went all over the place . I was upstairs; I was downstairs; I was in my living room; I was in my washroom. I was all over my house.
Q: Okay.
A: Yeah.
Q: Well, they didn't find blood. for example, out on the tennis court. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And you weren't out at the tennis court, anyway, that evening, were you?
A: No.
Q: They didn't find blood out near the Ashford gate, did they?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Now, you also mentioned, Mr. Simpson, that you were getting your phone out of your Bronco. Do you see that on line 26?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you testified that you weren't in fact getting your phone: you were getting a case for your phone. Is that true?
A: The case for my phone, the rest of my phone stuff, yes.
Q: Excuse me?
A: Yes, the case and the rest of the stuff that goes with my cell phone.
Q: Okay. But when you used the term "phone, you already had your phone with you, didn't you?
A: Yes. I believe it was already in my bag.
Q: Okay. So what you were telling the police was inaccurate. You didn't get your phone out of there; you were getting your phone case out of there?
A: That's correct.
Q: And when you went to the Bronco to get your phone case out of the Bronco before you were leaving, did you to your knowledge touch any of the foot pedals in the car, either the accelerator or the brake?
A: No
Q: Did you touch the inside of the driver's-side door?
A: Possibly.
Q: Okay. And do you recall the nature of touching the door, what happened that would cause you to come in contact with the door?
A: Just opening a door and getting in the car normally, and you kinda use your hands, the steering wheel and the door thing.
Q: Do you recall getting inside the car?
A: Yeah, I leaned in. I had to lean in and ended up getting it, and I ended up getting a jacket.
Q: Did you physically get inside the car?
A: I'm sure my body had to be inside the car to an extent, yes.
Q: Okay. Well, did you get into the car and sit in the driver's seat?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Okay. When you're talking about getting in the car, you are talking about leaning across the console to the passenger-side seat and grabbing your phone case?
A: That's right.
Q: Okay. Do you recall coming into contact with the dashboard?
A: I don't recall any of that, no.
Q: Do you recall coming into contact with the console?
A: Recall, no, I don't recall that.
Q: Do you recall coming in contact with the passenger-side seat?
A: I'm sure I must have, but I don't recall it, no.
Q: Did you rest your hand on the seat, your left hand, at all in order to get the travel case for your phone?
A: I may have.
Q: Where was the windbreaker located inside the car?
A: In the back seat.
Q: Okay. Did you have to climb into the back seat to get the windbreaker?
A: No. I just kind of leaned--I don't know exactly how I did it. It was just on the back seat behind the driver (Indicating).
Q: Okay. You are making a motion with your right hand. Do you recall reaching into the back seat with your right hand?
A: No, but I'm right-handed. so I would think I may have done that.
Q: Okay. That would be a logical and customary way for you to grab something if you were reaching for it in your back seat?
A: Yeah. My glass I keep here (Indicating). It would be logical, but not necessarily. You know, I grab things with my left hand also.
Q: Sure.
A: But, yeah, I'm thinking in most cases, yes.
Q: How about opening up the Bronco door? Would you typically
grab the door handle with your left hand if you were going to insert a key with your right?
A: If it was locked, probably, yes.
Q: And that would be the normal and customary way in which you would open the door?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. And the door handle on the Bronco, is it a door handle that you have to reach under with the top side of your hand facing the door and lift up the latch to open the door?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You don't recall the mechanism that's on the door in order to open the door?
A: Yes.
Q: Going to page 31 of your statement, Mr. Simpson, going to line 17 and 18 where you make the statement, 'I know I'm the...number one target. And now you're telling me I got blood all over the place." Do you see that?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Yes?
A: Yes
Q: Okay. And, Mr. Simpson, you were responding to information that was provided to you by these detectives that reaffirmed what you already had been told: That there was blood that was found at Rockingham. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And at that point did you begin to draw an association between the blood on your pinkie and possibly blood that was found at Rockingham that these detectives were telling you about?
A: The blood on my pinkie and the blood found at Rockingham, I don't think that that's what I was thinking at the time. I understood at that time why they were talking to me more so than I probably had earlier.
Q: Well going down to line 27 and 28, it says--they ask you, Is that your blood that's dripped there?" They just flat-out ask you whether that's your blood, don't they? Right?
A: Well, you just read the question.
Q: Did I read it correctly?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that how you interpreted the question?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Is how?
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: They were asking you whether that was your blood. Right?
A: Is that your blood that's dripped there?"
Q: Okay.
A: That's the way it sounds to me.
Q: And then you tell them on line 28, If -- if it's dripped it's what I dripped running around trying to leave. Right?
A: Yes. If it's mine, that's what it would have been.
Q: Okay.
A: As far as I knew.
Q: Well, then you drew an association between the cut that you saw, the blood you saw the previous evening and the blood that they were reporting to you that they found on Rockingham. Is that right?
A: Well, I knew I saw a drip of blood that I assumed came from me, and if this was my blood, I would have -- probably was making an assumption that that's what it would have come from.
Q: Okay.
A: But I wasn't--obviously I didn't know, but it was just an assumption on my part.
Q: You were making what you believed was a logical assumption, that, you know, within 24 hours, you were in the kitchen and observed blood on the counter top and blood on your pinkie, and then you're being told by these detectives that there was blood found on your driveway.
A: Yeah. I don't know how logical it was. It just--if that was the case, that was the case, because I didn't see any blood anywhere else, and I certainly had luggage and stuff that I was handling quite freely during that period of time.
Q: Well, you didn't think it was Kato's blood. did you?
A: I didn't know.
Q: Well, you didn't even suggest to them it was Kato's blood. Right?
A: They wasn't asking me about Kato.
Q: Okay. And if you thought it was Kato's blood, would that have been something you would have suggested to them?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. That calls for pure speculation.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Did you have any basis to believe that it was Kato's blood?
A: I didn't have any basis to believe it was mine or anybody's blood, for that the matter. I didn't know. I was just trying to answer their questions when they asked me questions and be as helpful as I could under the circumstances.
Q: So when you acknowledged to them that "if it's dripped it's what I dripped running around trying to leave," that you had no basis in your mind to tell them that statement?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's argumentative. Don't answer that.
MR. BREWER: Well, he just said he had no basis to believe It was his blood.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, that's your interpretation of what he said.
That isn't what I think what he said and that question is argumentative, and he is not going to answer that one.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Well Mr. Simpson, did you have a basis to believe it was Arnelle's blood?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a basis to believe it was anyone else's blood other than yours?
A: I didn't have a basis really to believe it was mine.
Q: Okay. So you're telling us now that you didn't have a basis to believe it was your blood?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. So when you told the investigating officer that "if it's dripped it's what I dripped running around trying to leave, n your testimony today is that in your mind you had no basis--no factual basis to provide that statement. Is that what you're saying?
A: That's correct.
Q: At no time did you ever draw an association between the blood on your pinkie and blood that was found at Rockingham the following day?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You already asked him that. He's already told you he had an association, and that was--
MR. BREWER: Mr. Baker, he has not said that. He had said he has no factual basis to provide the statement. That's why I'm going into it. He said it twice.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. Well, that's your interpretation. But he said when you read it to him and you talked about the pinkie. You've already been over that.
MR. BREWER: He has said he has no factual basis. That's all I want to find out.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's right: He doesn't have any factual basis. They didn't tell him anything.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Well, you knew that you cut your finger. You're the only one who knew that the night before. Right, Mr. Simpson?
A: I assumed I did.
Q: Okay. As far as you knew, Kato didn't know that you cut your finger. Right?
A: I didn't know what any of these people knew. I didn't have any knowledge of any of it. I just--I assumed I cut my finger because I saw a spot of blood, period. Outside of that, I didn't know anything.
Q: Okay. And my question to you is: Given the fact that on the 12th you observed blood on your finger, did you use that as a factual basis to tell the police officers that "if it's dripped it's what I dripped running around?
A: Not really. I just didn't know what. They were saying that there were blood in places,and I thought I could have possibly had done it, but I didn't know because other than that one drop of blood and what was on my finger, I didn't see anything. You know, I didn't see anything. And at that time I didn't make--I wasn't making any assumptions one way or another. I was just trying to be as honest as I could with the police officers.
Q: Were you being honest with them when you told them that if it's your blood, it was the blood you dripped running around?
A: It could have been. It could have been, yes.
Q: When you say you "didn't see anything, are you talking about you didn't see anything on the driveway?
A: I didn't see anything other than a drip of blood on the--on a counter and on my finger. I didn't see any blood anywhere at any time that evening.
Q: Okay. And when you say that you didn't see anything," the blood on the driveway--you didn't see blood on the driveway at all that evening. Right?
A: No.
Q: Nor in the foyer. Right?
A: No.
Q: As you sit here today Mr. Simpson, do you believe you reopened a cut on the left middle finger?
A: I have no idea what happened.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: What do you mean? While he was in the police station? Do you mean--
MR. BREWER: Let me clean up the question.
Q: Mr. Simpson, as you sit here today, do you believe that when you cut your finger in Chicago, you reopened a cut that already existed on your left middle finger at the joint?
A: I don't really have any belief on that. I just know that I never saw a cut on my hand.
Q: Did you ever get a tetanus shot?
A: I'm sure I have.
Q: On the week of the 13th?
A: On what? Pardon me?
Q: On the week of the 13th, did you ever go and get a tetanus shot?
A: I may have, yes.
Q: Do you have a specific recollection of doing that?
A: No.
Q: When you say you may have, what is the basis for that statement?
A: I believe Huizenga was doing some things, and I don't know exactly what he did. You know, I was kind of in a little bit of space then. I saw a lot of--seemed to me I saw a lot of doctors that was dicking around with me that week. So I don't recall if anybody give me a shot or not.
Q: So were you just guessing when you said that?
A: I think I said I believe I did. I didn't think I did. I didn't know for sure. I don't really know. I believe it might have happened that week.
Q: When you say, "I believe that might have happened," do you have a recollection of somebody putting a needle in your arm and injecting you with what you believed to be a tetanus shot?
A: I believe needles going into my arm --I have a recollection on that week of numerous needles going into my arm, but I was sort of in space a lot that week, so I don't recall exactly what they were doing.
Q: Well, do you remember whether they were injecting you with something or pulling something out of you; for example, blood?
A: I knew they pulled some blood out. I don't even recall if Peratis gave me a shot or not, other than I knew he went in a few times with needles, so--and I don't--I really don't recall exactly what he did.
Q: Do you recall asking anyone for a tetanus shot?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall anyone suggesting you should get a tetanus shot?
A: I don't have any recollection of that, no.
Q: You gave blood at the police station. Is that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: How did they withdraw the blood from you?
A: Stuck a needle in my arm. A few times. Because I think they screwed up the first time he was doing it.
Q: All right. Did they use a syringe to pull it out, or did they just use a vial?
A: I don't know. One of those--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Syringe.
MR. BREWER: It's early.
THE WITNESS: I'm a little squeamish about that kind of stuff, so I never looked.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: So you don't know how they pulled it out?
A: No.
Q: When you say they screwed--
A: I just remember he screwed up and had to do it again.
Q: Okay. When you say, "he screwed up," what do you mean?
A: I don't know. He did it, and then he--I was talking to Vannatter, I believe, whatever opposite side the guy was doing it on.Then he said he screwed up, and he talked to Vannatter a little bit, and then he did it again, but I wasn't looking.
Q: Okay. Well, when you say, he did it again," do you recall where he pulled blood or withdrew blood from you?
A: lt. was one of my arms.I don't recall which one.
Q: Okay. And then he made some comment to Vannatter that he screwed up?
A: Yeah, it was something--something--I don't know. Something was not right. I wouldn't look, so I don't know exactly what it was. And Vannatter was asking me questions, I believe, during this time.
Q: Do you have a specific recollection of him pulling--withdrawing blood from you on this first occasion?
A: I didn't look. So I knew he took the needle--he put the needle in did something; then took the needle out. Then he put the needle in again, and I remember I was complaining about having to do it again.
Q: And do you recall at any point looking and observing that blood was being withdrawn from your arm?
A: I absolutely never do that. I'm a little squeamish about that.
Q: Which arm was your--When you say you're "squeamish about that, just the sight of blood or blood being pulled from your arm?
A: Yeah. Not necessarily the sight of blood, but to an extent, yes, I'm a little squeamish about blood. But, hey, I played football, so you see it.
Q: Okay. I just want to make sure I understand what you--when you say you're squeamish, you're squeamish about the sight of blood?
A: To an extent, yes.
Q: What happens when you see blood?
A: Well, I don't know. I just--I don't -- I never look when they take blood out of my arm, and there are some other things women will tell you about me.
Q: Well, I don t know what that means. I'm asking you.
A: Well, you'll have to ask them. I'm sorry.
Q: We may ask them. I'm asking you right now.
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. So, for example, when you see blood on your finger, do you become squeamish?
A: Not really.
Q: Okay. But when you see that you have a cut that's bleeding, does that cause you to become squeamish?
A: I've had some yes, that I've been squeamish about, yes.
Q: Okay. Because just the very presence of blood causes you some discomfort?
A: I don't know if the presence. The presence of blood coming from me or on me is a little discomforting, yes. And needles, I hate.
Q: Okay. So when you say it's uncom--it's something that's significant to you?
A: Let me put it this way: I have never, ever in my whole life watched anybody take blood out of my body, and I've had it done many times. So whatever that is, I'm squeamish about that.
Q: Okay. How about just blood being on your body? Does that bother you?
A: I mean, bother me?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't like it, but I've lived a whole career with blood on my body, yes.
Q: Okay. When I say, "does it bother you," you used the term "squeamish. Do you become squeamish when you see blood actually on your body?
A: I have, yes.
Q: And does that cause you to do anything in particular: Clean it up quickly, you know, dress it. Or do anything of that nature?
A: Normally, yes.
Q: Okay. So the way in which you respond to blood on your body is to dress it and clean it as quickly as possible because you're squeamish?
A: No. Not to look at it, basically, or if it's a trainer around, have the trainer do it and not look at it--not view it. I just don't like looking at blood. If it's coming from me, I don't like looking at it.
Q: Okay. Well, you haven't had a trainer around for years. Right, Mr. Simpson?
A: That's correct.
Q: So if you are at home and you see blood on your person, is there anything you do because of the fact that you are squeamish when you look at blood?
A: I think I do the same thing you do: Clean it up.
Q: Okay. Put a Band-Aid on it?
A: If it needs--if it requires a Band-Aid.
Q: When you say that you do--you do the same thing I do, are you assuming that there is some reasonable response that typically people have when they're cut or wounded--
A: Yes.
Q: --in dressing that wound?
A: Yes.
Q: And you would fall in line with what reasonable people would ordinarily do, as far as you know, in terms of addressing a wound?
A: To an extent, yes.
Q: At any time during the course of giving a statement to Detectives Vannatter and Lange, did you ever knowingly tell them anything that was false?
A: Knowingly? No, I was -- they knew and I knew, because we stopped once or twice and they asked me if I was tired and could I go on, that I was tired. So I knew at certain points I was tired and maybe not as sharp as I--as they would want me to be or if--I would have wanted to be.
Q: Okay. Mr. Simpson, that's not my question. At any time during the course of providing information to Detectives Vannatter and Lange, did you ever knowingly provide them any information that's false?
A: Knowingly, no.
Q: How about unknowingly?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, don't answer that. I don't know how you could unknowingly provide information that was false.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Well by-- have you ever gone back and seen information in there that you now believe to be false?
A: I saw some of it was confused, yes.
Q: Okay. Well, we will talk about confused. Let's talk about false information. Is there anything in there that you have observed since giving the statement that you believe to be false?
A: Because of the confusion, it was inaccurate, is what I'll say.
Q: Okay. And what do you recall as being inaccurate," using your term?
A: For instance, I went out to the car to get the--all the stuff that goes with my cell phone. I said a phone. At one point I was under the impression that I went and got my daughter's flowers after the recital when it was obviously during the recital, and I think I caught that one at the time.
Some of the things that happened right when I got back from the recital, because they almost were duplicate to what I had done the night before, a few of the things kinda ran together, and I may have said some things that weren't accurate at that particular time, at 7:00--7:00 to 7:30.
Q: Okay. And were you nervous during the course of giving this statement?
A: I wasn't aware of it, no. I was--I think I was a little out of it. I had things on my mind, obviously.
Q: Okay.You don't remember being nervous as you sit here today?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember being anxious?
A: Yeah, I'm sure I was a little anxious.
Q: Okay. Because you were being questioned in connection with a murder investigation?
A: No. Because I wanted to get out of there and get to my family and find out what had happened.
Q: Do you recall any information that you provided in this statement being inaccurate as it relates to Paula Barbieri?
A: No. Well, yes, a little--somewhat, yes.
Q: Okay. You indicated to the detectives during the course of providing this statement that you called her as you were driving to her house. Do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was after the recital. Is that true, Mr. Simpson?
A: Well, that was inaccurate, yes.
Q: Well, the statement that you provided to the police officers was that you called Miss Barbieri as you were driving to her house after the recital. Is that true?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: What page are we looking at?
MR. PETROCELLI: Are you looking at 9?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: 9, I think.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: You want to take a minute to review it, Mr. Simpson?
A: No, I don't need to.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes, you do.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. Starting where?
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: You can review any part of it. Your lawyer wants you to review it, and he'll tell you what he wants you to review.
A: What do you want me to talk about?
Q: I am going to ask you questions about Paula Barbieri and driving to her house.
(Witness reviews document.)
A: Okay.
Q: Okay?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Now, Mr. Simpson, the first time that you ever provided any testimony under oath relative to the events of June 12th, 1994 was during the course of this deposition. Is that true?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Okay. And would it be fair to say, Mr. Simpson, that your memory relative to the events of June 12th was better within 24 hours of those events, of describing those events, than it was during 1996?
A: I think to an extent that's incorrect.
Q: Okay. You think your memory is better now, almost two years later, than it was the following day in terms of describing the events of June 12th, 1994?
A: I think my memory was better, after I got some sleep, even the next day than it was when they were interviewing me.
Q: Okay. So you had some problems with your memory during the course of giving information to these detectives while they were interviewing you regarding this murder investigation?
A: As you can see here, what you told me to read, I was trying to--and I had pointed out here, well, I'm trying to think. I did. I was even having problems because I was tired. I was having problems recalling when I bought the flowers for the recital, even though it became obvious that I had to have bought those flowers during the recital, even though at the time they were interviewing me, because of the state I was in, I was thinking that maybe I bought the flowers after the recital, but I think we all know now those flowers were bought during the recital. But I was tired; I believe I was in somewhat shock, so things were running together, and I was having trouble putting all of these things together.
Q: You said, "As you can see here." Are you talking about kind of the stammering way in which you provided the statement, at least between lines 15 and 20?
A: Yes. It was, am I--I'm trying to think, did I leave? This is during the recital, and we know I did leave, but at that time I was having trouble recalling that, but if you read the statement, you can see that I was having some problems at that time.
Q: And you think it's obvious, just in looking at the statement, that you were having problems recalling that specific information. Is that true?
A: I think it's obvious in light of the fact we knew I bought flowers during the recital and not after the recital.
Q: And the reason -- your reason that you've given us today is because you were tired.
A: Well, I was in shock. My wife -- my ex-wife had been murdered; my kids were wherever they were; last time I spoke to my daughter, she was in a bad way, and I hadn't slept.
Q: It wasn't because you were making this up as you were going along, was it, Mr. Simpson?
A: No, that's incorrect.
Q: Now, the first call you made to Paula Barbieri after the recital, just answering that question, was at 10:03. Is that true?
A: I don't believe so. I believe I tried her once I got home from the recital.
Q: The first call that you made on your cell phone after the recital was at 10:03. Is that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: And your testimony during this deposition was that you had begun walking out to your car, and before you even reached your car you decided that you were not going to drive down to Paula Barbieri's. Is that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: When you say, lines 18, 19, 20, Then -- then I came home, and then I called Paula as I was going to her house and Paula wasn't home," that's inaccurate?
A: Well, it depends how you interpret it. At the time I was running two days together, but I did call her as I was going to her house. I tried her on my phone at home. I gather there was -- her machine was on. And at that point if she wasn't home, I didn't -- I couldn't--I didn't know where to go find Paula. I've never found Paula anywhere except at her house, so I decided not to go.
Q: Well if taken literally and you called her after the recital on your cell phone as you were going to her house, that would have been at 10:03. True?
A: No, that's inaccurate.
Q: Well the first call you made to her on your cell phone after the recital was at 10:03. Is that true?
A: Well, as I told you, I was putting a few things together, a few nights were running together, Saturday night, Sunday night was running together, and if you look at my cell phone records, you will see at roughly this time on Saturday, as I was going to Paula's house, I called her.
Q: Okay.
A: So there were -- I hadn't slept, and last night was whatever night it was to me, and the nights were running together to me at this time.
Q: Okay. So as you were providing this information to the detectives in connection with this murder investigation, did you begin to think that all the information was running together and it may be inaccurate?
A: No. I was very tired, and they were concerned about me being
tired because they mentioned it a few times to me.
Q: Did you ever tell them that you want to stop the statement because --
A: No. I said I wanted to get out of there.
Q: Excuse me. Did you ever tell them that you wanted to stop giving this statement in connection with the murder investigation because you were so tired that you thought you were beginning to provide inaccurate information?
A: No.
Q: In fact you answered all the questions that they asked you, didn't you?
A: As best as I could. yes.
Q: And you never once asked them to stop to rest or ever indicate to them that you were tired. Is that true, sir?
A: I think the way I was answering questions indicated to them, because at one point they asked me could I go on, and I said, "Yes, let's just get this over with."
Q: At any time after you got home from the recital, did you ever get into your Bronco and drive towards the house of Paula Barbieri?
A: No.
Q: By the way, Mr. Simpson, at the time that you were giving this statement, you didn't have your cell phone records in front of you, did you?
A: No.
Q: You hadn't reviewed your cell phone records, had you, sir?
A: No.
Q: You hadn't reviewed any of your phone records. Is that true, Mr. Simpson?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you didn't know -- Strike that. Did you pay your cell phone records yourself, or did Cathy Randa pay those?
A: I'm sure not Cathy, but my office paid.
Q: Okay. So in other words, on your phone bills for your cellular phone, they go to your office, and then they're paid by your office staff or administrator?
A: That's correct.
Q: Now, I take it, Mr. Simpson, that when you reviewed this statement for the first time, you had had an opportunity to rest.
A: Yes.
Q: After it was transcribed. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were of -- your state of mind was a little bit clearer when you had a chance to review the actual transcript of what you said.
A: That's correct.
Q: And I take it that you reviewed this statement very carefully at that time?
A: I don't know.
Q: Well, you had given a statement to the police in connection with a murder investigation, and this was your first opportunity to look at what you said. Right?
A: Yes. I was in jail at the time, and I was still a little spacy.
Q: Were you spacy because you were still tired?
A: No. Because they had me on drugs, and the whole experience
was --I hadn't really been able to deal with it yet.
Q: Okay. Well, you've read the statement that you gave to the Los Angeles Police Department detectives on a number of different occasions, haven't you?
A: A few times, yes.
Q: Okay. And at any time after you reviewed the statement, did you ever contact the Los Angeles Police Department either directly or through any agent and indicate to them that any of the information in this statement was inaccurate?
A: We had hoped it would come out in court, but the LAPD didn't want it in court, so--
Q: That's not my question, Mr. Simpson.
A: Oh, I'm sorry.
Q: Did you or anyone under your direction ever contact the Los Angeles Police Department and indicate to them that this statement was inaccurate?
A: We assumed it would come out in court.
Q: Well, I know you want to answer your--
A: They didn't want it to come out in court, evidently.
Q: See if you can answer my question.
A: Okay.
Q: Did you ever contact the Los Angeles Police Department or direct anyone on your behalf to contact the Los Angeles Police Department to change the statement?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that as it relates to any lawyers.
THE WITNESS: I can't answer that.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Well, did you ever personally contact the Los Angeles Police Department?
A: From jail, no.
Q: Okay. Did you ever ask anyone who was a non-lawyer to contact the police department on your behalf?
A: A non-lawyer?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Did you ever file a supplemental report or ask to have filed a supplemental report with the Los Angeles Police Department?
A: I didn't ask anything, no.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You want to take a break?
MR. BREWER: Yeah.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:27.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 10:55.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Okay. Mr. Simpson, you have the statement in front of you. I want you to go to page 12, and specifically lines 25 and 28. We are going to go through that, and page 13, lines through 18, but let's just go through it piece by piece.
A: Say that again. I'm sorry.
Q: So I am just letting you know I am going to go through page 12 and 13, but 12 starting at lines 25 through 28. Okay? And this is in reference to Paula, and the questions you were asked at the time you gave this statement in connection with this murder investigation was: What time was the recital? Your answer: Over at about 6:30. Like I said, I came home, I got in my car, I was going to see my girlfriend, I was calling her and she wasn't around."
A: Yes.
Q: Did I read that correctly, sir?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And at the time that you gave that statement, was that accurate?
A: No.
Q: At any time on the 12th did you ever get in your car to go to Paula Barbieri's?
A: No.
Q: And did you ever call her to say you were going to her house?
A: No.
Q: And--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Again, on the 12th you're talking about.
THE WITNESS: On the 12th.
MR. BREWER: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: On the 12th, not the 11th.
MR. BREWER: Yeah. Thank you.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You just didn't put a date on it. I'm sorry.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Now, is this inaccurate because you were running the 11th and the 12th together in your mind?
A: Partially, yes.
Q: Turn the page, and it says, page 13 at the top: "So you drove the--" You say Bronco. You got home in the Rolls in the Rolls --" Subject: ''Yeah." Question: --and then you got in the Bronco? Subject: Bronco 'cause my phone was in the Bronco." Did I read that correctly?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, on the 11th when you saw Miss Barbieri, you went out to a function with her for the Prime Minister of Israel. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you took the Bentley on that occasion. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: At any time on the 11th did you ever drive the Bronco down to Paula Barbieri's?
A: I may have.
Q: Well did you?
A: I don't recall, but I may have.
Q: But you specifically recall driving the Bentley down there. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Because you picked her up. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you went to a function that evening. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you dropped her off. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: In the statement that you're talking -- in which you're talking to the detectives, you made specific reference to the Bronco. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: That you called her from the Bronco as you were headed to her house. Correct?
A: That's correct. That's what I said here (Indicating), correct.
Q: Now that--it's a statement that you made to the detectives in connection with the murder investigation that you now say is inaccurate.
A: Yes.
Q: You didn't make a trip at any time that day to Paula's. Right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That day being the 12th?
MR.BREWER: You're right. The 12th.
THE WITNESS: I was going to go there on the 12th. I got probably halfway and decided not to go.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Okay. So the answer to my question is that you did not make a trip -- you didn't actually get in the car and drive to Paula's on the 12th. Is that true?
A: I got in the car with the intentions to drive to Paula on the 12th, and about halfway there she hadn't answered, and I turned around and went home--called Nicole, actually, and then tried her again and went home.
Q: What time was this?
A: Right after the golf match.
Q: That you got into your car?
A: Into my Bronco, yes.
Q: And you drove to Paula's?
A: I was driving to Paula's.
Q: And you got about halfway there?
A: I would say till about -- I believe it was Barrington where I turned.
Q: Okay. And then so we are clear, this is on June 12th that you did this?
A: Yes.Yes.
Q: You have a specific memory of this on June 12th?
A: Yes.
Q: After playing golf?
A: Yes.
Q: Coming home?
A: Pardon me?
Q: Did you come home first?
A: No.
Q: So you went from the golf course to --
A: I was driving down Sunset. I was going to Paula's and spend a few -- a little time with her.
Q: Okay. And you got to about Barrington?
A: Yeah. I was having trouble getting through, and I got to about Barrington, yes.
Q: Okay. And then because you couldn't get through, you decided not to continue your trip to her house?
A: Sort of. I didn't turn right around. I went down Barrington because if Justin was home, I would have -- Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Q: Well, when you say that -- you just made a statement that "if Justin was home." Did you then head by Nicole 's?
A: I was heading towards Nicole's when I called Nicole's house.
Q: Well, let's be clear on this, Mr. Simpson. Were you heading to Paula's when you made this call, or were you heading to Nicole's when you made this call?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Which call are we talking about?
MR.BREWER: The one to Paula.
MR.ROBERT BAKER: Oh, okay.
THE WITNESS: I made more than one call to Paula.
BY MR.BREWER:
Q: Okay. Well, you were headed to Paula's and trying to call her. Is that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: And this was right after you played golf?
A: That's correct.
Q: So you went directly from the golf course heading to Paula's--
A: Going down Sunset, yes.
Q: Going down Sunset, attempting to call her from your cellular phone.
A: That's correct.
Q: And during this same drive did you also attempt to call Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Was this before you had made a decision not to continue on to Paula's?
A: Well, I tried Paula again directly after.
Q: After you had called Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And Paula wasn't home?
A: Correct.
Q: And was it at this point that you decided not to go on to Paula's?
A: Yes. I was on my way back home at that time, yes.
Q: Well did you turn around and were you headed home when you made this phone call to Paula after you had spoken--after you had called Nicole?
A: I didn't turn around, but I was going I believe west on San Vicente.
Q: Would that have been in the direction of Paula's house?
A: No. That would have been in the direction of home.
Q: Okay. What I am trying to figure out here is: Are you calling Paula as you're driving to her house and then at some point, because she is not there, you decide to turn around and not go there? Is that what's going on?
A: Essentially, yes.
Q: And then when you turned around or decided not to go there, did you then place another phone call to her home?
A: Yes.
Q: And she still wasn't home?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. Were you leaving messages for her?
A: Not the first time. I think I did the last time, told her I was off the golf course, I believe, and I was heading to the house.
Q: When you say, "Not the first time," what are you referring to?
A: The first time, when I heard her machine, I just hung up. and then I tried Nicole.
Q: Okay. The first time. was that after golf?
A: Yes.
Q: While you were in your car?
A: Yes.
Q: Driving to her house?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. The second time is when you left a message?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And it was at the second-- Strike that. The second phone call that you made was after you had already decided not to continue on to her house. Is that it?
A: If she would have answered, I would have gone to her house, but she didn't, so I continued home.
Q: But you were heading west on San Vicente when you made the second phone call. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: That was not going towards her house. Right?
A: If she was home, I would have gone to her house, but she wasn't home. so I continued to go home to my house.
Q: Okay. But if she was home, would you have had to turn around?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And is it this conversation -- Strike that. Is it at this time that you had a conversation with Nicole about tickets?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that an argument?
A: No.
Q: You had stated during Mr. Petrocelli's examination that the last time that you had--you were asked the last time you had an argument with Nicole. Do you remember that testimony?
A: Yes.
Q: And you had mentioned in connection with that answer, although you didn't finish the answer according to my recollection, you had mentioned something about tickets. Do you remember that?
A: Not with an argument, no, I wasn't. That's incorrect.
Q: There was no argument in connection with the tickets?
A: None whatsoever.
Q: It was just a matter-of-fact conversation you had with her?
A: Yes. She was wondering about-- Yes.
Q: And she was wondering about what? How many tickets you
needed?
A: Yeah, and Jason and Arnelle, stuff like that.
Q: What do you mean "stuff like that?"
A: Well, Jason and Arnelle were going to attend, and, you know, who could get there first.
Q: Going to page 13 and now focusing on line 11, you make the statement in response to the discussion of the Bronco, "You know, I drive -- rather drive it than the [sic] other car." Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that statement made in reference to the Bronco?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And is it--was it your preference to drive the Bronco versus the Bentley?
A: It was an easier car to drive, and I enjoyed driving it. Even though I didn't drive it a lot other than going to golf, I liked driving it.
Q: Okay. That was an accurate statement then in terms of your preference --
A: Yes.
Q: --as to which automobile you prefer driving?
A: Yes.
Q: Then going on with line 13, it says, "And I-- you know, and, uh -- and, uh, as I was going over there I called her a couple times and she wasn't there, and that she had left a message." Now, this is going back to page 12 where you're talking about going over there after the recital, and this never happened, did it?
A: Excuse me?
Q: Well, there was never an occasion after the recital where you were going over there, calling her a couple times. Isn't that true?
A: This was during the day after the golf match, not after the recital that's correct.
Q: Well, let's read this, because I want to make sure that we have this in context. Okay? We'll just read this--
A But this is not in context. As I was explaining to you before, these things were running together at the time because of whatever condition I was in, trying to remember not only Saturday -- these--all of these things were running together to me, and that's why it got a little confused.
Q: Okay. So when you say, "these things were running together" with Saturday, you're talking about the statement where you were -- " as I was going" -- and again, page 13, lines 13, 14, l 5, where you say, "as I was going over there I called her a couple times and she wasn't there, and that she had left a message ' Are you running together the 11th and the 12th in connection with--
A: I think--
Q: -- providing that information?
A: Excuse me. I'm sorry. I think I'm running it all together, the 11 to 12, that day, that night, it's all sort of running together to me at that time.
Q: Okay. Let's just go back to page 12. If it's out of context, you let us know how it's out of context.
A: Okay.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that question.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: That isn't a question. That's just a prelude to reading this. Okay?
On page 12, if you read along with me, Mr. Simpson, there is a question--
A: From what line?
Q: Starting on page 12, line 25.
A: Okay.
Q: The question you were asked is, "What time was the recital?" And your answer is: "Over at about 6:30. Like I said, I came home, I got in my car, I was going to see my girlfriend, I was calling her and she wasn't around."
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And we are now at page 13, top of the page, line 1, We will continue on: "So you drove the--"
Your answer: 'Bronco."
The detectives: "You got home in the Rolls, in the Rolls--"
Subject--Suspect: "Yeah."
"-- and then you got in the Bronco?"
And your answer: "Bronco 'cause my phone was in the Bronco."
Detectives: "Okay."
Suspect: "And, uhm--and 'cause it's the Bronco, it's the Bronco is what I drive."
Detectives: "Yeah."
Suspect: "You know, I drive -- rather drive it than any other car.
"And I -- you know, and, uh -- and, uh, as I was going over there I called her a couple times and she wasn't there," she had -- and that she had left a message. And then I checked my messages, she had left me a message that she wasn't there, that she had to leave town. And then I came back and, uh. ended up sitting with Kato.'
Question: "Okay. And about what time was it [sic] again that you parked the Bronco?"
Suspect: "8:00 something, maybe." Okay? Now, the statement that you make at Lines 13 through 18 on page 13 is in reference to a discussion where you're describing what happened after the recital. True?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And, Mr. Simpson, what you described to them with respect to what you did after the recital was that you were headed to Paula's house and you were calling her. Is that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you also said that you had checked messages and that she left you a message that she wasn't there. You said that, didn't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Was that true?
A: She had left a message on her message machine that she was not around, or words to that effect. I can't tell you specifically what it was.
Q: Okay. So there is a message that she had left on her message machine indicating that she wasn't there and she had to leave town?
A: I believe. It's just that she wasn't around. She may have said that she was out of town for a few days. I just don't recall.
A: Okay. Was that a standard--
A: Pardon me?
MR. PETROCELLI: Mike, your question said "her message machine." You meant his.
MR. BREWER: No, that's what I'm trying to figure out.
Q: Are you saying that on her message m machine there was a message that was particular to you that she was out of town and wasn't there?
A: No. I think it was to everyone.
Q: Okay.
A: Yeah.
Q: So we're clear on this, you called Paula, and her message machine would come on, her voice, presumably--
A: Yeah.
Q: - indicating that she wasn't there and she had to leave town?
A: Or words to that effect, yes.
Q: And I take it that you heard that message the first time you called her on the 12th?
A: I may have, but sometimes she does it just to avoid people. Yeah, I may have, yes.
Q: Okay. Well, when you first called her on the 12th, the first time after golf, was that message on her machine?
A: I believe so. I don't recall a change of message.
Q: Did you not believe the message?
A: I don't think I paid any attention to it.
Q: Okay. So when her message indicated that she was out of town and wasn't there, is that something that was inconsistent with her schedule or habits?
A: I'm sorry. You have to repeat that.
Q: Well, you indicated in earlier testimony that Paula was a busy person --
A: Yes.
Q: --she was working. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And it was not uncommon for her to go out of town. Isn't that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: And the reason why she would go out of town was because she would be involved in various employment endeavors that necessitated her going out of town. Is that true?
A: Correct.
Q: And so when you heard this message on the 12th that she was out of town and wasn't there, that was consistent with her past practices with respect to these employment endeavors. Isn't that true?
A: Correct.
Q: And is there any reason why you didn't believe that message at that time?
A: Well, I didn't know. As I said, she told me she might be leaving town. Quite often she'll leave messages that she's leaving town to avoid people, and she's still in town. So I really didn't know one way or the other.
Q: Did you have any reason to believe that with respect to this particular message on the 12th, that she was giving -- that she was leaving that message because she wanted to avoid people?
A: I didn't know.
Q: Do you think she wanted to avoid you?
A: That was a possibility.
Q: And what was that based upon? What was that belief of yours, if any, based upon?
A: That I played golf that morning.
Q: Okay. Did you have any discussion with her about your playing golf that morning?
A: No.
Q: Did she ever say anything to you about your playing golf that morning?
A: That morning?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Okay. In fact, the earlier evening you've already testified you had a wonderful evening. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: There was no indication that she was angry or dissatisfied with you when you left her on the 11th. True?
A: Yes.
Q: And after you heard her message that she indicated that she was not there and out of town, you called her again.True?
A: Yes.
Q: And you called her during the same drive after you played golf. Isn't that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: And it was at that point that you left her a message. Is that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: And what was the message that you left?
A: That I was back from golf and I'd be at the house.
Q: That you would be at your house?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And I assume that you expected that if this was one of these occasions where she was leaving a message to avoid people and she got your message, she would call you at your home. That was your hope. Right?
A: If she wasn't avoiding me yes.
Q: And you didn't--you've already testified you didn't check your cell phone messages that day. Right?
A: No.
Q: If you received a message at your home on your answering machine, would there be any record of that?
A: I don't know. It depends where the message came from, I guess.
Q: Well, for example, if you had a local call made to your residence where someone left a message on your machine and you got that message, would there be any record of any sort relative to that effect?
A: I don't think so. I don't know.
Q: And your belief that this statement that you made to the detectives in connection with this murder investigation is inaccurate is based upon your running together the 11th and the 12th?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: As well as he said--
THE WITNESS: Well, the whole day of the 12th, the 11th to 12th, and everything that was going on, this -- yeah, a lot of this is just kind of ran together, and at that point in time I was a little fuzzy about it all. I had other things on my mind.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: In the following--same page on Line 23 through 26, you mention that "wee had," referencing Kato, "We had went and got a burger." You see that?
A: Yeah.
Q: Lines 24, 25, 26. You see that?
A: Okay. I'm just trying to see it all leading up to it. "She wasn't''--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Read the whole lines starting at Line 23, OJ.
THE WITNESS: Pardon me? I'm just trying. . .
(Witness reviews document.) Yeah.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: You see that?
A: Lines 23?
Q: Well, specifically the reference that you and Kato "went and got a burger." You see that?
A: Yeah. Well, let me see it again.
Q: You see what I am looking at?
A: I see 23 and 24, they're talking about earlier than--we had taken an early-- "relatively -- he hadn't taken a -- "he hadn't done a jacuzzi." He hasn't gone. "We had went and got a burger and I came home and kind of leisurely got ready to go."
Q: Okay. When you talk about ''he hadn't done a jacuzzi," who are you talking about?
A: Kato.
Q: Okay. I take it that your state of mind was sufficient to recall that detail to the investigators in connection with this murder investigation.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's a self-evident truth.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
MR. BREWER: Well, I want to make sure that it's inaccurate. Some things are inaccurate. Let's find what is and what isn't.
Q: I take it that you were able to recall that detail for them, Mr. Simpson?
A: Well, I knew he took a jacuzzi. I may be a little confused here at what time he took it, but I'm--this here, it sounds like I got him--I don't know what it is here.
Q: Well, when you say that Kato -- your reference that Kato took the jacuzzi, that was based upon your recollection of what Mr. Kaelin did on the 12th. True?
A: What he asked me to do and that the jets were still on at some point.
Q: Well, there was some circumstantial evidence, in your view, that he had taken a jacuzzi then.
A: I didn't see him in the jacuzi, no.
Q: And you had in fact assumed that he had taken a jacuzzi. Is that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you told the detectives that. Right?
A: Yes. I told them he took a jacuzzi, but I had assumed--I didn't tell them I assumed he took jacuzzi. I told them he did, but assumed that, yes.
Q: Okay. So in your mind you had gone through a process where you had taken what Mr. Kaelin had told you coupled with what you observed and concluded that he took a jacuzzi, and that's what you related to the investigators.
A: I don't recall thinking about all of that at the time. I just recall telling them he took a jacuzzi.
Q: Okay. And then you indicate we went and got a burger. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And that's accurate. Right?
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. I take it your state of mind was such that you were able to relate to them that information.
A: Yes.
Q: And then you indicate that you "kind of leisurely got ready"-- Strike that. You said, "...I come home and kind of leisurely got ready to go." You see that statement?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that accurate?
A: Yes.
Q: Truthful?
A: Yes.
Q: You were able to relate that to them accurately then?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. I am going to jump back up and just ask you a couple more questions on this statement you made relative to the messages. At line l5, 16 and 17 you state, in providing information to the detectives "And then l checked my messages. . . "
A: Yes.
Q: You see that?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: "...she had left me a message that she wasn't there, that she had to leave town." Right?
A: Yes.
Q: That doesn't say anything about a message on her machine. You're talking about your machine, aren't you, sir?
A: I'm talking about I got a message from her, but there was no message on my machine.
Q: Well, Mr. Simpson, what you were telling them in the English language is you checked your messages, aren't you?
A: Yeah. What I was trying to relate them was that I got the message she was out of town, even though I still wasn't quite sure if she had left town. but she had not left me a message and I had not picked up a message and I think your records will show that.
Q: Well, I don't care what our records will show. I'm trying to figure out what you're telling--
A: Obviously you don't.
Q: When you say "I checked my messages" and "she had left me a message," what you were intending to tell them was that there was a message on her machine telling you that she was out of town; she wasn't there?
A: I don't know if that was what I was meaning to tell them at the time. I think I was just trying to tell them that I had gotten a message that she was out of town.
Q: Irrespective of whether it was on your machine or her machine.
A: Well, I know it wasn't on my machine because she never called my machine, and the machine she calls, as you know, I didn't pick up any messages. So, yes, I had gotten a message she was out of town, even though I got to admit I still didn't totally believe it.
Q: Was this information based upon your memory at the time that she would check your messages and that she had left you a message? Was that your recollection at the time?
A: At the time it was just based on trying to give information that -- what I thought I knew at the time. I was trying to let them know what I felt I knew at the time, and I was inaccurate. That's an inaccurate statement. I did not check my messages. I did check my machine at my home, and there was no message from Paula, and she never called my machine and left me a message at home.
Q: And you just made a statement that one of the reasons you know that is because your phone bill. Is that true?
A: Pardon me?
Q: You just made a statement to me that if you check the phone bill, you would know that you didn't check your messages. Do you remember that statement?
A: Partially, yes. I was surprised that I didn't, because it seems to me that I normally will call my car phone, and I was surprised that I didn't.
Q: Okay. When you say you're "surprised that you didn't," are you
talking about an occasion where you reviewed your phone bill relative to cell phone charges and looked at what calls you made that evening?
A: No. It went further back than that. It went to when Paula told me she had left a message, and since I knew I had never received a message, at that point in time I realized I must have never picked up any messages from her.
Q: When did Paula tell you this?
A: In jail.
Q: When in jail?
A: I don't know. Later on when I was in jail at some point.
Q: You were having a discussion with Paula about messages that you had left one another?
A: No. I think our discussion was about just everything that had happened, and somehow it came up. It wasn't a vital point at the time, which I don't think it is now, but that's my opinion, and she had said something about she was upset with me and she had left a message.
Q: She brought it up?
A: I don't know who brought it up. We were just talking about what was going on. She spent a lot of time with me while I was in jail.
Q: Was that the first time after the murders that you ever had a discussion with Paula relative to messages that either she left you or you left her?
A: That was the first time in jail I had a discussion with Paula that I was aware that she was pissed that I got up to go play golf.
Q: That wasn't my question. Was that the first time after the murders that you had had a discussion with Paula relative to what messages she left you or you left her or any discussion whatsoever related to messages?
A: I don't recall. I just recall it was the only time I had a conversation with Paula concerning how she was feeling that day, and I don't recall if we talked about messages. I didn't see -- you know, it didn't stand out, any conversation I had with her.
Q: The discussion that you are now referencing where you asked Paula
about how she is feeling that day, when did that happen?
A: At some point when we're in jail.
Q: Okay. This is while you were in jail, you had this discussion with Paula?
A: Yes.
Q: The statement that you "kind of leisurely got ready to go, " do you see that on line 25 on page 13?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have a desire or an intention to be late for your plane that evening?
A: I've only missed one flight in my whole life.
Q: And this is a business trip. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: It's important for you to be there in Chicago, isn't it?
A: And I was there in Chicago.
Q: It's important for you to be there. You knew that on the l2th. Right?
A: Yes, and I was there in Chicago.
Q: Okay. And I take it that you have a practice of making sure that you get ready with enough time to make it to the airport to assure yourself that you'll be able to get on the plane and get to Chicago or your business appointment?
A: Well, it's debatable. My limo drivers would say no, and I will point out to them that I've only missed one flight in my whole life.
Q: Your limo drivers would say no?
A: Well, they always wish I'd be ready when they get there, and I
never am.
Q: Okay. Is this because you have a practice of running late?
A: I don't consider it late. As I said, I only missed one flight in my whole life, and that's because the guy took the midtown tunnel instead of the 59th Street bridge, which I told him to do.
Q: And so, for example, on the evening of June 12th, you didn't consider yourself running late?
A: I considered it just the way I always am. I really thought I had had plenty of time to get to the airport, which I did, and I would have had more time if I wouldn't have taken the time that I took with Kato.
Q: Well, would you ever use that term to characterize your status in talking to a limousine driver as of June 12: That you were running late? Would that be a term you would use to describe what your time situation
was?
A: Yeah, but every time a limo driver comes to my house, it's the same act; it's the same thing: "You're late. You're running late," and I'm hustling, but I always know in my head that I got plenty of time, and I've never--and I travel more than just everybody in this room combined, and I've only missed one flight in my whole life, but it's the same--I had less time earlier that week trying to catch a plane to go to Washington. The limo driver said, "You running late." And I say, "Yeah, I know I'm running late," but in my mind I was --well, on that trip I thought I was running late, but once again I had plenty of time when I got to the airport, and I made my flight.
It's a habit of mine to get ready, put everything basically where I want it to be, and at the last minute it's sort of a whirlwind, and it's--it is consistent with what I do all the time.
Q: So even though you may tell a limousine driver you're running late, in your mind you're really not running late--
A: That's right.
Q: - you're on time?
A: That's right. I didn't believe that I would miss the flight.
Q: So if you told Alan Park on June 12th that you were running late, in your mind you may have believed that you were actually running on time?
A: Not necessarily on time. I just knew I wouldn't miss my flight. I knew I had time to make the flight. I wasn't concerned really--that concerned about missing the flight, and so, no, I didn't think I would miss the flight.
Q: Other than the Kato discussions that you had that evening where he was talking to you about the noises, was there anything else that impeded or made it difficult for you to get ready on time?
A: I have a habit, and I don't know why, but I have a habit that once the limo get there, that sometimes my -- well, my golf clubs were packed this time. Normally they're not. He -- the limo driver sometimes has to do that. And historically I'm always looking for my cell phone. That's just -- don't ask me why. It's just a situation that normally Michelle will go out to the car and get it if she 's there or the limo driver would go look somewhere for it if he's there. It's just--you know, it's just the way I am.
Q: That wasn't a problem on the 12th with respect to your cell phone, because you had it. Right?
A: No. When I came down, I didn't have it. I walked back in the house and got it off a counter, and I didn't have the rest of the stuff to go with it, which I consider -- you know, it's like a football helmet: You know, if you don't have your helmet, you don't have your uniform. Even though you might have on all the other stuff, you're still not properly dressed. I needed the rest of my stuff, so I didn't have it all together, no.
Q: When you went upstairs at 10:20 --
A: 10:15, 10:20.
Q:-- 10:15, 10:20, and then looked at the clock at about 10:35, 10:40--
A: Yes
Q: --between that time frame, you were just sitting on the bed doing
nothing. Right?
A: Yeah, I was kind of spacing. I had a book in my lap and my TV was on, so I was just sort of spacing.
Q: But, I mean, if you wanted to, you could have gotten up and jumped in the shower at any time that time frame. There is nothing that would have prevented you from doing that. Right?
A: Nothing.
Q: Now, you didn't get a phone call or get interrupted during that time frame. Right?
A: No. I was actually waiting, which is my custom, for the phone call to initiate me doing those things. That's the way I normally work it.
Q: And the phone call that you're talking about is the phone call from the limousine driver?
A: Yes,
Q: And so your practice is that you'll sit and wait until you get that phone call?
A: Yeah. Normally I'm doing something else, may be eating. I may be --if it's daytime, I may be out back. I may be doing just about anything, but normally I got things laid out, and I use that as my okay, get -- you know, it puts me in my high gear.
Q: Okay. And you travel extensively, more so than anyone else in this room, just as you indicated. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And this is a practice that you routinely follow as a triggering event to you getting ready?
A: At home, yes. Not so much on the road.
Q: Well, let's just talk about at home because that's what we're concerned about.
A: Yes.
Q: And that is that when you get a phone call from the limousine driver, that will trigger taking a shower or finishing your packing or dressing or anything that you have to do to get ready. Is that true?
A: Normally, yes. I mean, there are times when the limo driver is late and Michelle or somebody will say, "You better get going."
Q: Okay. And did you know what time your plane took off?
A: Roughly. I think I had just looked at it. So when I was on the bed, I know that was one of the things. I had looked at my travel folder, yes.
Q: That would be kind of important for you to know in order to know whether you're running late or not, right, what time your plane was going to leave?
A: Yeah. I had a rough idea it was I believe 11:45.
Q: Okay. And in your mind, based upon your experience traveling, you knew roughly how long it would take you to get from the airport -- Strike that. Based upon your experience traveling, you knew roughly how long it would take to get from your house to the airport. True?
A: Yes
Q: And I take it that that estimate would be based upon normal traffic conditions for a Sunday evening?
A: No. I probably take as many red eyes as anybody, so, yes, I'm pretty much--I'm pretty aware of how long it normally takes to get
to the airport, yes.
Q: Okay. And do you know what time Mr. Park was scheduled to be there that evening?
A: It's the habit of my limo--I don't know about Park, but it is--I have a rule that you guys, because there were a few times they were late, whatever time we call, they get there 15 minutes early so that I don't have to worry if they're there or not. So it's --I think they had a 10:45 call that night, so they should have been there at
10:30.
Q: And that is a directive that either you or someone on your behalf has given to the limousine service?
A: I believe so. Over the years, it just became a standard thing with me and my limo service.
Q: Okay. So the limousine service presumably knew that they were to be there 15 minutes before the scheduled time?
A: Well, that's normally the way it is. I'm just telling you what has been normal over the years with me.
Q: Okay. Well, let's talk--
A: There have been times they've been late, but that's normally the way it is.
Q: Well, that's what we are talking about: What normally the--the normal way it is.
A: Yes.
Q: And the normal way it is is based upon your experience with this limousine service. True?
A: Yes.
Q: And that experience is based upon your request to have them there 15 minutes early. Is that true?
A: Well, I'm comfortable with that, yes. I don't recall actually saying it to them, but I know we've had some problems in the past when they were running late, and it's their practice to be there 15 minutes early.
Q: So they knew, presumably, if they were following your directive, that if they were to pick you up at 10:45, they were to be there by 10:30. Is that true?
A: I can't say it's my directive. It's just their habit to be there 15 minutes early, and that's the way it's always been, basically.
Q: And when you say it was "their habit to be there 15 minutes early," did that include actually acknowledging that they were waiting there for you?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that the triggering event that you would generally rely upon to start getting ready and finalizing your packing and so forth before leaving to the airport?
A: The majority of the time. I mean, I had housekeepers sometimes that would push me, but -- or my kids -- "Come on, Daddy, get ready," as my daughter testified to -- but basically that's it, yes.
Q: So if we follow what the normal practice was, if we're to assume that the limousine was scheduled to be at your house at 10:45, they would arrive at 10:30. True?
A: That's correct.
Q: They would buzz you then. True?
A: Ring me, yes.
Q: Ring you. And that would trigger your getting ready?
A: Well, doing the last things that I needed to do, yes.
Q: Okay. And on this particular occasion the limousine was scheduled to be there at 10:45. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And based upon the normal custom and practice that you had experienced with your limousine service, you expected to hear a phone ring at about 10:30. Is that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: And at 10:30 you were sitting on your bed doing nothing. Is that true?
A: That's correct.
Q: And at--
A: Well, I may have been reading. I may have been reading.
Q: You weren't engaged in a discussion or conversation with anyone. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And you weren't on the phone to anyone?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. And had you received a phone call at 10:30, presumably that would have triggered your getting ready. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And at 10:35 you were still sitting on your bed. Is that true?
A: 10:35 or 10:40. I'm not sure because -- I'm just not totally sure. It was right at those times.
Q: Anywhere between 10:35 and 10:40, in that time period because you're not certain, you were still on your bed. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you hadn't -- Had you appreciated at any point the fact that the limousine driver was not running, as they customarily ran, l 5 minutes early from their scheduled--
A: Yeah, I got a little concerned that I may have to drive myself to the airport or I may have--I may have
checked to see if Kato was home and told him to do it.
Q: Well, do you have a recollection now of checking with Kato to see if he was home--
A: No. I said the limo hadn't come.
Q: Excuse me, Mr. Simpson. Do you have--
A: I can't have a recollection of something just told you. If he hadn't of come, I would have -- I was
thinking at the time I would have driven myself or I would have asked Kato to take me to the airport, and since he had come before I was ready to go, I didn't have to do those things.
Q: Okay. So that we're clear, at some point, 10:35, 10:40, you began to be somewhat concerned about the fact that the limousine driver hadn't rang.
A: I don't know about concerned. I looked and said where was the limo driver and then I just started doing the things that I had to do to get ready to go.
Q: When you say you "looked," did you look out your window--
A: No, no. I had--I became--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You've got to wait, OJ., till he finishes.
THE REPORTER: Okay. Everybody is just going to have to slow down. I cannot keep up with this testimony. I cannot keep a record. So you are just both going to have to slow down for
me here. Okay?
MR. BREWER: Okay.
Q: Go ahead.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't even know if there is a question pending.
Is there?
(Pending question read.)
THE WITNESS: That's a figure of speech again. When I say "I looked," I looked at the clock. The limo driver I noticed, hadn't rung me, so I didn't know if he was running late or not. I just knew that I had to start getting ready to go.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: You never looked out your window or made any effort to look outside at the Ashford gate to see
if the limousine was sitting there. Is that true?
A: No. No. No.
Q: Okay. And so that at roughly between 10:35 and 10:40, I guess you decided that you were going to get up and get ready on your own without this triggering event occurring. Right?
A: It was time to go. It was time for me to do the things I needed to do to be ready to go, yes.
Q: Okay. And at any time before you got in the shower, do you recall making any effort to determine
whether Mr. Kaelin was still home--
A: No.
Q: -- in the event--
A: No. I mean--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You have to wait till he's finished.
THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: - in the event that you needed him to take you to the airport?
A: No.
Q: Did you make any effort to determine whether Arnelle was home in the event she had to take out to the airport?
A: At that time there was no need to, so the answer is no.
Q: Did you make any telephone contacts with anyone as kind of a backup in the event that the limousine driver didn't show up and you needed a ride to the airport?
A: There was no need to, so I didn't. No .
Q: And it was at this point that you got into the shower--you went to the bathroom and then got into the shower?
A: Yeah, I went to the toilet and then I jumped in the shower.
Q: Mr. Petrocelli asked you during the course of his examination whether you were asleep between I believe 10:00 o'clock and 10:45, and you indicated that you were not. Is that true?
A: Yeah, I was fighting sleep, and that was the biggest problem I was having, falling asleep. So I was sitting there trying not to nod off, that's why I was trying to read and keep myself active.
Q: Okay. Because you were going to take a red eye, and you normally sleep on a red eye. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: In fact it wouldn't make a lot of sense to take a nap or sleep before you go on a red eye. Right?
A: At that late time, no.
Q: Okay. And you deny that you told Mr. Park that you overslept. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And other than your lawyers, have you ever told anyone that at the time of these murders, you overslept?
A: No.
Q: If someone made a statement on your behalf that you were asleep at the time of these murders, would that be a false statement?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
MR. BREWER: Why not?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Because if someone made a statement on his behalf, it's irrelevant. I mean, you know what the facts are, what his testimony is going to be, and he is not going to answer it.
MR. BREWER: Well, I want to know, if somebody who was an agent of his made a statement that he was asleep at the time of these murders, the basis for that statement.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, you are not going to know because he is not
going to answer the question.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Did you ever-- Do you recall when Robert Shapiro first became your lawyer?
A: I believe sometime Tuesday. I don't know if we had really decided Tuesday. I know I for the most part spoke to him Tuesday and liked him, and it may have been Wednesday.
Q: Okay. Tuesday, Wednesday, roughly?
A: Yes.
Q: And, Mr. Simpson, as you've already testified in this deposition, you were the only person that knows your whereabouts between 10:00 o'clock and 10:45. Is that true?
A: My whereabouts?
Q: Yes.
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: When Mr. Shapiro took over the -- your representation, do you recall him making a statement on national television that at the time of the murders you were asleep?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: No?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that, I said.
MR. BREWER: Why?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Because it doesn't make any difference what Mr. Shapiro said.
MR. BREWER: Well, Mr. Shapiro is a lawyer, gets on national television and says that Mr. Simpson is asleep?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: So what? You are not going to get it out of this witness, and if you get it -- you know, if you get a ruling out of the judge that it's relevant, good for you. It won't surprise me in this case, but it's--
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Your answer is no, though, that you never heard him make that statement?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that question.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Moving--fast forwarding a bit to your trip to Chicago on the plane, you were in first class. Is that correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And I take it that other than takeoff and landing, the lights were off inside the plane during the trip?
A: I think the overhead lights were, yeah, the plane lights. You have the ones at your seat.
Q: Did you have that light on?
A: Sometimes.
Q: Is that because you were reading?
A: Yeah.Yeah.
Q: Do you remember what you were reading?
A: "Inca Gold."
Q: And other than reading "Inca Gold," did you do anything else, write or work or anything of that nature on the trip back to Chicago?
A: I probably did. I may have looked at what I was doing in Chicago. I may have thought about some of the things that I would say.
Q: Did you have one particular stewardess that waited--not waited, but that handled the people in First Class?
A: You know, I know there's always a First Class stewardess--
Q: Flight attendant.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: There you go.
THE WITNESS: Flight attendant. I know there's always a First Class flight attendant. I know the girls from the back came up once and got me a glass of water, I believe, but I--you know, I really wasn't paying attention to the stewardesses.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Okay. Flight attendants.
A: Flight attendants.
Q: All right. During the trip to Chicago, can you estimate how long you were in the air for?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall having used the restroom?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall having to use the restroom on approximately 15 occasions?
A: I'd say that's incorrect.
Q: Ten?
A: I'd say that's incorrect.
Q: That is?
A: I would say that would be incorrect.
Q: Five?
A: Possibly.
Q: Okay. Between five and ten or less than five?
A: Maybe about five.
Q: About five?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And was there any particular reason, other than just using it for -- because you had to go to the bathroom, that you had to utilize the restroom on the trip to Chicago?
A: Other than taking a leak, no.
Q: So you believe there were five separate occasions, roughly, that you had to actually use the facilities in the air back to Chicago?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. And while you were in the restroom, when you activate the lock the lights go on, don't they?
A: I guess so.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: In the bathroom?
MR.BREWER: Yeah. Not the plane. The bathroom.
MR.ROBERT BAKER: The bathroom on the aircraft. Yeah, okay.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
BY MR.BREWER:
Q: So, for example, it will be vacant -- you'll go in, you'll shut the door you'll push the lock, and the lights go on inside the restroom.
A: Yes.
Q: And on these roughly five occasions -- by the way, do you have a practice of washing your hands after you go to the bathroom?
A: Sometimes.
Q: Well, is it a practice of yours?
A: Sometimes.
Q: Okay. And do you recall any specific occasions where you washed your hands en route back to Chicago?
A: Either way, no.
Q: Do you recall on any of these five occasions looking down and seeing any wounds or cuts to your hands?
A: No, I never saw any wounds.
Q: Just so I am clear, you don't have a specific recollection of actually washing your hands headed back--as you were going back to Chicago?
A: No.
Q: Do you have a specific recollection of putting a Band-Aid on any cut on any of your fingers--
A: No.
Q: -- as you were headed back to Chicago?
A: It didn't happen. No.
Q: You're certain of that?
A: Yes.
Q: When you got back to Chicago and you got to the hotel room, you indicated that you kind of put your toiletries out, and then I think you went to sleep. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: Approximately what time was it when you went to sleep?
A: I don't know.
Q: Was it light or dark out?
A: I think it was getting light. I'm not sure of that.
Q: Did you close any curtains to make the room darker so that you would be able to sleep?
A: They were closed.
Q: Already when you got in there?
A: Yes.
Q: And --
A: I believe they were. They may not have, but I believe they were.
Q: Okay. Was it roughly 5:00 or 6:00 o'clock when you got back to the hotel?
A: I believe it was after--I'm guessing. I believe it was after 6:00.
Q: That's your best estimate?
A: Yes.
MR. BREWER: Why don't we just stop right here and we can change the tape.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No.1 of Volume VIII. The time is approximately 11:42, and we are off the record.
(Pause in the deposition.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 11:45. This is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume VIII.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: We have journeyed back here, Mr. Simpson, to Chicago with you, and we are in your hotel room now and -- sometime after 6:00, and you have arrived at the hotel, and I think you've put out the toiletries in your bathroom. True?
A: Yes.
Q: And you believe--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't say "sometime after 6." He said he didn't know the time.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, it may have been after 6:00. I'm not sure.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Don't let me put words in your mouth.
A: It may have been after. You know, I only think that because of what I hear now, but at the time I had no idea what time it is. I assumed it was about 6:00 o'clock.
Q: Okay. And do you assume that because the sun was coming up as you were going from the airport to the hotel?
A: No. I assumed that for--I knew the flight and the time it took to get the luggage and get to the hotel that it would be getting close to 6:00.
Q: And am I correct on the rest of it, that you put out the toiletries when you got in the room?
A: Yeah.Yeah.
Q: And then you went to bed to get some--
A: I brushed my teeth and then went to bed, yeah.
Q: Okay. When you got the phone call from Detective Phillips or one of the detectives--do you remember that?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you turn on the light?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you recall whether your room was dark at that time?
A: No.
Q: You don't recall one way or the other?
A: One way or the other.
Q: And I take it that when you were told by one of the detectives that Nicole had been killed, that that was -- you were in shock.
A: I don't know what I was. It was -- you know, it was a lot--it was -- I don't know.
Q: Well, you were awakened early in the morning and told by a detective that your wife had been killed.
A: My ex-wife had been murdered, yeah.
Q: And that was shocking information.
A: I don't know what it was. I just know it was like--I can't describe it. It's -- you can't describe it. I can't describe how I was. It was...
Q: Did you start crying?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Okay. Did you start screaming?
A: While I was on the phone with him, you know what? I don't know what I did, basically. I know I -- it was hard to believe and I know I was saying something to him, and then I was at that point trying to hear what he was saying to me.
Q: Well, you've already related, and I don't want to go back over it, a discussion with the detective, and then you spoke with Arnelle. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: After you hung up with Arnelle, was there a period of time where you were crying after learning of this shocking news?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: While he is in Chicago?
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Yeah, while you were in Chicago, and the time period that I am focusing on right now, Mr. Simpson, is when you hung up with Arnelle.
A: I don't--
Q: At that point did you cry or scream or yell or do anything in response to hearing this?
A: I know I was pissed and I was like feeling--I don't know what I was feeling. It was just so hard to digest. And I may have cried. I don't know. I know I did on the plane a little bit because I was trying not to let--for the people not to see, but I don't know.
I may have.
Q: Let's just talk about what you do remember doing. You don't remember one way or the other whether you cried. True?
A: True.
Q: You don't remember whether -- one way or the other whether you
screamed. True?
A: I'm not-- what do you mean, "screamed"? Was I loud? Probably was loud. I mean, I wasn't screaming like, you know, Fay Wray or nothing, but I was probably loud. I have a habit of being loud.
Q: Talking to yourself?
A: Yeah, venting. I don't know if I'm talking to myself. Just I have a habit of thinking out loud.
Q: Okay. And as you described it, venting?
A: Yeah.
Q: Were you walking around the room as you were venting upon hearing that your wife had been killed -- your ex-wife had been killed?
A: I was going back and forth to the telephone, yes.
Q: Going back and forth between the telephone and where?
A: The bathroom, the telephone and the closet.
Q: Okay. What I am trying to focus on, Mr. Simpson, is after you were told that Nicole had been killed, was there a period of time where you just had to go through some emotional response, where you weren't making phone calls or using the restroom or brushing your teeth, where you were sitting on the bed or walking around trying to deal with this news emotionally?
A: The whole time I was, even when I was sitting and walking and even fell back on the bed a few times, I was doing -- during the whole period of time I was trying to deal with it emotionally. There's no -- you don't turn on your emotions and turn your emotions off. The entire time I was trying to deal with it emotionally. No matter what I was doing, I was trying to deal with it emotionally.
Q: Was there a period of time where you were trying to deal with it emotionally before you affirmatively started getting ready to leave?
A: The whole time from the time I heard it I began to try to deal with it emotionally.
Q: And then you've described a process where you were going back and forth between the restroom and the phone making phone calls trying to make travel arrangements, and it's at some point there that you broke the glass. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you indicated to Detective Vannatter and Lange that you broke the glass as you were going bonkers a little bit. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And were you indicating to them that upon hearing the news you were angry and, as a result of that anger, broke the glass?
A: I don't know what I was indicating to them. I just broke the glass while I was doing the things that I was doing, trying to get out of there and trying to get back home.
Q: When you used the term "bonkers," were you attempting to imply that you were out of control?
A: Yeah, I think I probably was a little bit, yes.
Q: And is it your testimony sir, that you were out of control at the time that you broke the glass in Chicago?
A: I may have been. It may not have happened while I was--I just know that I was -- I was -- I don't know what I was.
Q: Well let's not talk about possibilities. Let's talk about what you recall. Because you recall telling the detectives that you were bonkers when this glass broke. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have a specific recollection and -- strike that. You've also indicated that by the term "bonkers" you're referencing a state of mind where you're out of control. Right?
A: Sort of. When I say "out of control," I mean, I wasn't jumping out of any window or anything, but, yes, I was charged.
Q: Charged?
A: Yes.
Q: And the reason why you were charged is you had just learned this awful news about Nicole.
A: That's correct.
Q: And it was in that context that this glass was broken. Is that true?
A: Yeah, you told me not to say what I don't know for sure, so I can't answer that.
Q: Okay. When you told the detectives that you broke the glass as you were going bonkers, was that inaccurate?
A: I need to read that because I don't think I said, "I was going bonkers." I said, "I kinda went kind bonkers for a little bit," and I don't know if I said, "as I was going bonkers I broke the glass." I don't know if that was what I said.
I just know during this period of time I would reach the point where it was just like just trying to digest it all was a little much.
Q: Let's go to that then. Page 15, f you have the statement in front of you, Mr. Simpson and we are going to start at line 12, and the question that you were asked, and this is in reference to how you cut the finger, "How did you do it in Chicago?'
Suspect: "I broke a glass. I just was -- you had -- one of you guys had just called me and I was in the bathroom and I just kind of went bonkers...a little bit."
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Let's, so that we're clear, we are on -- there are three stars that indicate something is undecipherable, at least that's my interpretation, and we certainly don't have the tape. But you read it accurately. I don't mean to imply you did not.
MR. BREWER: Okay.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Because as you'll see in the logo, three stars means unintelligible, first page.
MR. BREWER: Okay.
Q: Other than that, I read it accurately. Correct, Mr. Simpson? You following along?
A: No, I wasn't.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You did. You did.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Well, you wanted to revisit that--
A: Yes.
Q: -- that statement. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You see where it says or where I read, "I...went-- "kinda went bonkers a little bit"?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were relating that state of mind to the detectives in connection with describing at what point you broke the glass. True?
A: Yeah, I went bonkers for a little bit. I don't know if that's when I broke the glass. It could have been but, as you told me, I shouldn't comment if I don't know for sure, and I don't. I just know I went bonkers; a glass got broke. I wasn't -- I was trying to get on the phone. I was trying to get a flight out. So I was going back and forth, and during the course of all of that, and I--I broke the glass.
Q: Okay. Let's try to be real clear here then on a couple things. When you say you "went bonkers"--
A: Yes.
Q: - and in the context of describing how the glass was broken, you're not certain today whether that was your state of mind when the glass broke or not. Is that true?
A: When it actually broke, I don't know what my state of mind--I was agitated from the time I heard the call to the time I left, and during the course of getting on and off the telephone, trying to get packed, the glass broke.
Q: Okay. Would you say that when you first learned of Nicole's death from one of the detectives, that your emotional reaction kind of reached a crescendo and then diminished as time went on?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you tend to gain a little bit more wits about yourself as time went on after having the opportunity to digest this information a little bit?
A: I don't know.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: From what point to what point?
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Just while you were in the hotel room.
A: I don't know.
Q: You had mentioned during Mr. Petrocelli's examination that you didn't recall whether you slammed the glass down. Right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We can get that if you want.
THE WITNESS: Why don't you get it. I mean, I may have slammed it down, I may not have slammed it down, but it broke.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Okay. Let's go from that. As you sit here today, is it your testimony that you could have slammed it down, as one possible explanation for the glass breaking?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you're talking about you could have, do you have some memory or recollection that you slammed the glass down?
A: No.
Q: Okay. What I would like to do in the next five minutes before we break is I want to rule out things that are possible, because a number of things are possible, and try to focus on what you have some recollection of doing. Okay?
A: Okay.
Q: You have no recollection one way or the other of affirmatively doing anything to break the glass. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: You have no recollection one way or the other of slamming a glass down and breaking it. Is that true?
A: I may have.
Q: Well, when you say you "may have"--
A: I may have. Somewhere in my mind that may have happened because I was slamming everything around, so that could have happened,
yes.
Q: Okay. What else did you slam around that day?
A: Just everything that I was throwing around. I was rude on the telephone. I was throwing things together to pack to get out of there . Yes, that could have happened. That could have been it.
Q: Did you break anything else in that hotel room?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Did you break anything on the airplane ride back?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Did you break anything in the automobile ride from your hotel back to the airport?
A: No.
Q: Did you break anything while you were at the airport?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: And were you slamming things around on all these occasions or just while you were in the hotel room?
A: I think I was a little aggressive, yes.
Q: Well, when you say "aggressive," I'm talking about you said that you were slamming things around." You used that term. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And to me that means that you were physically taking objects and slamming them down--
A: No.
Q: - or slamming them around?
A: (Indicating.) You know, to me that's slamming things around. I was doing that all day, yes.
Q: Okay. So when you're talking about slamming things around, you've just demonstrated physically taking cups, pens, slamming them down on the table. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Other than the glass that you broke in Chicago, did you break anything else that day while you were slamming things around?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. And so the basis for the statement that you've made that that is a possible explanation is the recollection that you have of slamming things down all day. Right?
A: No. The basis is that the glass broke, so that's the basis.
Q: Okay. But you don't have a specific recollection of slamming the
glass down and having it break while you're doing it. Right?
A: As I say, it might have. I just know that it broke when I was moving things around in the bathroom, and it broke.
Q: Wait a second. Now, you're saying that it broke when you were moving things around the bathroom?
A: Yes. I was trying to get my stuff out of the bathroom. I either slammed the glass down or knocked it over. I don't know exactly what it was. But I know that was my state of mind at the time, that I was like--I was like a little bonkers, and the glass broke during
the course of that, and that's the best I can answer it no matter how many different ways you talk about this.
Q: Okay. And I don't want to go over it, Mr. Simpson. You've discussed it. But what I want to do is focus on what's possible versus what you have a recollection of doing. Okay?
A: Okay.
Q: And just see if we can flush this out a bit.
A: Okay.
Q: Because you've talked about slamming things down throughout
the day because of your state of mind. True? You did that.
A: Yes. I mean, I was aggressive throughout the day. I may have
thrown my suitcase. I may have -- I was pretty aggressive throughout the day.
Q: Okay. Now--
A: At least until I got back to L.A.
Q: Okay. Now, do you have a specific recollection of slamming down a glass inside that bathroom?
A: I may have. As I said, I wasn't thinking about slamming at the time . It was my state of mind. So it's possible. As you say, what's possible and not possible--it's possible.
Q: Well, it's possible I woke up in China this morning, but I know that I didn't. I am just trying to find out what you recall, not what's possible. Do you have--
A: You said earlier "possible," and I'm telling you it's possible that's how it happened. That's the only way I can answer the question.
Q: Do you have any memory at all as you sit here today of taking that glass and slamming it down on the table?
A: It's possible that that happened, yes.
Q: It's possible you have a memory of it?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have a memory of it?
A: Possibly, yes. It seems like I was throwing everything around.
Q: Well, either you have some recollection of it or you don't, Mr. Simpson. Do you?
A: It's possible that that's when it happened, yes.
Q: Okay. And that's based upon some memory that you have?
A: It's possible that that's when the glass broke, because I was being a little aggressive.
Q: Okay. You don't want to answer my question?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that last question.
THE WITNESS: It's possible.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: It's possible that you have a memory of breaking a glass? Is that the best you can do?
A: I broke a glass. I know that's a fact. It's possible how it happened is when I was slamming things around or trying to pack things. I was a little aggressive.
Q: Okay.
A: Evidently the glass broke, so it's possible that that's when it broke.
Q: Okay. So what we have established is that you broke a glass and that it's possible that it happened when you were slamming it around, so far. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: As you sit here today, do you have some memory -- some specific memory of breaking that glass by slamming it down while you're in Chicago?
A: It's possible.
MR. BREWER: Let's just take a break for lunch.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 12:01.
(At the hour of 12:01 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at l:0l p.m.)
(At the hour of 1:38 p.m., the deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present with the exception of Daniel Petrocelli.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 1:38.
EXAMINATION Resumed)
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Mr. Simpson, we are back from our lunch break, and let's pick up where we left off. We were trying to narrow down some of these issues in Chicago, and we were talking about whether or not you recall slamming down a glass and breaking it in Chicago. Do you recall that discussion?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Okay. You indicated in connection with some of my questions that it's possible that you don't recall. Do you recall that?
A: Well, I'm saying it's possible it could have happened at times that you indicated. I just knew it happened during that period of time. I just l can't tell you specifically at what instance it happened. It just happened during a time when there was a lot of--I can't call it confusion, but where I was being somewhat emotional, and I was trying to get out of Chicago.
Q: Okay. I want to go through a number of questions, and what I would like to try to focus on is what you recall today or don't recall today--
A: Okay.
O:--versus what may or may not be possible. Are we clear with one another?
A: Yes.
Q: As you sit here today, do you recall whether or not you slammed a glass down, causing it to break?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall whether you knocked over a glass with your hand, accidentally causing it to break?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall whether you broke the glass intentionally?
A: I don't believe I did, no.
Q: Okay. So you have some recollection that however the glass broke, it was not done by you intentionally. Is that a fair statement?
A: Yes.
Q: And is it fair to also assume that, by your answer, that you broke the glass accidentally?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And do you recall the breaking of the glass included some involvement of your hand?
A: Not really.
Q: Okay. Is it possible that you kicked it over--
A: I doubt that.
Q: --with your foot?
A: I doubt that.
Q: Do you have any recollection of hitting it with any part of your body other than your hand?
A: Not really, no.
Q: Do you recall whether you hit it with any luggage?
A: That could have been.
Q: Okay. When you say it "could have been," do you now have a recollection as you sit here today of some luggage being involved in connection with the glass breaking?
A: Well, yeah, in my bathroom I had my overnight toiletry kit, and I believe I brought my big bag in there at one point, too.
Q: Okay. And do you remember the purpose of bringing your big bag into the bathroom?
A: I think I was just packing. It was just a part of packing and whatever I was trying to do at the time.
Q: When you say your big bag, you're talking about your grip?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you bring your grip into the restroom or the bathroom before or after the glass broke?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you remember some involvement in your grip in causing the glass to break?
A: No, I don't recall.
Q: So as you sit here today, you have no recollection at all that your grip was involved in any way with breaking this glass. Is that true?
A: One way or the other, no.
Q: Is that true, what I just said?
A: Yeah. Either way I don't have any recollection of was it before or was it after--
Q: That's not--
A: --or during.
Q: I'm sorry. That's not my question. My question is: Do you recall as you sit here today right now any involvement whatsoever in your grip in causing this glass to break?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. Do you have a recollection of the glass that broke being on the counter sink -- I'm sorry--on the sink counter at the time that it broke?
A: I just recall pushing the glass off the counter.
Q: Okay. So at the time that the glass broke, is it fair to say that as you sit here today, you have no recollection with respect to where it was located?
A: I'm sure it was on the counter, but other than that, I have--it's just not something that's been in my mind, no.
Q: Okay.
A: You're right: I have no recollection.
Q: Do you have a specific recollection of it being on the counter, or are you assuming it was because that's where the broken glass was located?
A: Yes, at this point it's an assumption I'm making.
Q: Okay. So you have no specific recollection as you sit here today whether it was actually on the counter at the time that it was broken. Is that true?
A: I'm sure it was.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: But he is asking you if you have a specific recollection.
THE WITNESS: Specific recollection, no, I don't.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Okay. Do you have a specific recollection of whether or not you threw the glass at something to break it?
A: No.
Q: Is that something that's possible, or are you able to rule that out as a potential explanation for how the glass broke?
A: Well, I didn't take it and throw a glass. I do know I didn't do that.
Q: Okay. So that's something we are definitively able to rule out as you sit here today.
A: I believe so, yeah. I don't recall throwing a glass, no.
Q: Okay. And that would also be true throwing it either at a wall or throwing it on the floor or throwing it on the counter. Are we able to rule all of those scenarios out as you sit here today?
A: Except the counter, if I kind of knocked it over or put it down hard. Except for the counter. I can rule out that I didn't throw it at the wall or the floor.
Q: Okay. What I am talking about is not putting it down hard, but actually throwing it like a baseball at the counter--
A: I don't recall doing that.
Q: -- we haven't ruled that out?
A: I'm sorry. I don't recall doing that.
Q: Okay. When you say you don't recall, is that one of the possible explanations in your view? Can we definitively rule out the fact that you may have thrown the glass at the counter top, causing it to
break?
A: I'm pretty sure I didn't do that, but I don't -- I don't -- you know. I don't -- the glass is not something I -- I don't--no, I don't.
Q: Okay. Let me just make sure I'm clear. Are you saying you're able to rule that out definitively?
A: I'm saying I don't recall that.
Q: "I don't recall that" meaning that's a possible explanation?
A: It's possible, I guess.
Q: That you may actually have thrown the glass down on the counter
top?
A: I doubt it, but it's possible.
Q: Okay. Are you saying that anything that you don't remember is possible?
A: I think you said that earlier.
Q: Is that in your state of mind, that anything that you don't remember is possible?
A: In that bathroom at that time, I can't say "anything." If you were specific, I can answer as best I can specific questions.
Q: Okay. Now, you have described in earlier testimony the mechanics of what you were doing at the time that you cut your finger. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And as I understand your testimony essentially you were in a sweeping motion moving the glass towards the sink with your left hand. Is that true?
A: Well, I don't know about a sweeping motion. Maybe I indicated that with my hand. I knew I was trying to get the glass out from around my stuff into the sink, and I cut my hand at that time.
Q: Okay. Now, do you recall as you sit here today moving, and if you watch my hand, moving the glass towards the sink in a sweeping motion using the back of your hand as a leading edge?
A: Not using my hand. I was using a towel to do it, but l do recall trying to sweep the bits into the sink, and I do recall noticing that I had cut my hand.
Q: Okay. So as you sit here today, you have a specific recollection of using a towel as kind of a broom, moving the glass towards the sink?
A: Yes.
Q: And was the towel located on the upper right towel bar--
A: I don't know.
Q: -- inside the restroom?
A: I don't recall.
(Daniel Petrocelli enters the deposition.)
MR. BREWER: Do you have Exhibit 71?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. They're in order.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: I just want to show you a copy of Exhibit 71. If you need to look at the original, we'll pull it. Faintly, it's better than my photograph, if you want to see it. Do you see a towel bar in the upper right portion of the photograph?
A: I can't see it distinctively, but that appears to be one, yes.
Q: Okay. This is a little better. Just look at mine just to see if it refreshes -- Do you see what appears to be a towel bar in the upper right portion of the photograph--
A: Yeah.
Q:--the photocopy of the photograph? Is that where you got the towel from that you were using to assist you in sleeping up-- sweeping up the glass?
A: I don't recall. I don't even remember this room.
Q: You don't remember where you got the towel from?
A: It was in the bathroom. That's all I recall.
Q: Was it a hand towel, a bath towel where you dry yourself off, or a washcloth?
A: I don't--it was just a small towel because I also used a little toilet paper. So it was just a towel. It was just whatever was sitting there. I don't know if it was a towel I had used the night before or a towel that I just grabbed at that time, but -- it wasn't what I was--what was on my mind, so I don't recall.
Q: You just characterized it as a "small towel." When you use that term, are you talking about a hand towel or a washcloth as opposed to a towel that you would use to dry yourself off?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Okay. So we're able to say at least with some degree of definity that it was either a hand towel or a washcloth that you used to sweep up the glass, as you sit here today?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Okay. And you pulled that towel -- Strike that. You used that towel to sweep up that glass before you ever cut yourself. Is that true?
A: I think during the process of doing it, I cut myself.
Q: Okay. And were you holding that towel in your left hand?
A: I believe so. yes.
Q: And were you applying the towel to the surface of the counter top, moving the glass towards the sink?
A: At one point. yes.
Q: And was that the process that you were engaged in at the time that you cut your finger?
A: I believe so. yes.
Q: Okay. And did something happen while you were doing that that caused you to cut your finger that you now -- that you recall as you sit here today?
A: I was going back and forth to the phone, and I don't recall if someone was waiting on the phone for me or if the phone had just rung, but I was going back and forth to the phone. I do recall that was what was going on during this particular time.
Q: When you were going back and forth to the phone, are you talking about before you ever began to clean up the glass, or after you had started cleaning up the glass you went back to the phone for some reason?
A: I believe through all the time I was in the room, once I received the call from the LAPD, I was -- it's almost a continual thing until I left the room.
Q: And when you say--
A: When I was going to the phone, back and forth to the phone.
Q: Back and forth to the phone from the bathroom?
A: From everywhere. From everywhere. Whatever was going on, I would -- whatever I was doing. I'd be on the phone. I'd be off the phone. I'd be on the phone. I'd be off the phone.
Q: Okay. Other than packing up your toiletries and perhaps cleaning up and shaving or brushing your teeth, was there any reason why you had to go back and forth from the restroom to the phone?
A: It was just basically packing and just trying to get everything together.
Q: Okay. And as you sit here today now, do you have a specific recollection of cutting yourself after you began the process with this towel of moving the glass into the sink?
A: I know it was during the time that I was cleaning up the glass that I cut myself.
Q: Okay.
A: And -- but it was at that particular time that it happened.
Q: Now, as you sit here today, do you have a specific recollection, after you began the process of cleaning up the glass, of going from that point to the phone either to make a call or to receive a call that was coming into the hotel room?
A: Well, I know I was back and forth to the phone, yes.
Q: Well, when you say, "I know I was back and forth to the phone," what I am asking you for today is a specific recollection, whether you have one or not, of going to the phone after you began the process of cleaning up the glass that you've just described for us.
A: Well, I know I was back and forth to the phone, and I know that--that I cut--I believe it was in the midst of all of that I cut my hand, so... I know I was back and forth to the phone before and I would believe after. Yes. Yes. So I can't tell you what phone call--I was coming in or going out or if I was on the phone at the time it happened, but I do know I was back and forth before and after it happened.
Q: So in your mind as you're sitting here today, you have some recollection of attempting to clean up this glass and then at some point moving towards the phone. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you cut your finger before you made any movement towards the phone?
A: I don't know. I don't get the question, so I don't know.
Q: Okay. Well, you've described a process where you were moving glass into a sink. Right?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Yes?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you're talking about having to go to the phone to use the phone either to make a call or to receive a call. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You have a recollection of that as you sit here today. Right?
A: I know I was back and forth to the phone, and I know during the midst of doing all that I cut my hand. At what point that happened--I wasn't thinking about at what point that was happening. I was trying to get out of Chicago and I was trying to get to L.A.
Q: I understand all that, Mr. Simpson, and all I'm asking for is what you know today. What's I your recollection as you're sitting here today in this deposition?
A: My recollection is during the course of trying to get out of Chicago, I was on and off the telephone. In the midst of all that I cut my hand at some point, and I was still back and forth trying to get out of Chicago, trying to get a flight out, trying to get someone to take me to the airport, and in the midst of all that I cut my hand. That is my recollection.
Q: Okay. Well, let's see if we can break it down a little bit, maybe stir your recollection. Focusing on the time period that I'm focusing on where you began to move the glass into the sink, as you sit here today, do you have a specific recollection of going to the phone?
A: I know I went to the phone--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't ask that. Just, do you have a recollection in your mind's eye right now of doing that? If you don't, just say, I don't.
THE WITNESS: I don't.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Okay. Do you have a recollection of -- in your mind's eye as you sit here today of what you were doing as you cut your finger?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you have a recollection of feeling any pain at the time you cut your finger?
A: I don't have a recollection, no.
Q: Do you have a recollection as to the position of your hand at the time that you cut your finger?
A: No recollection, no.
Q: Do you have a recollection as to whether your hand was moving at the time that you cut your finger?
A: No recollection, no.
Q: Do you have a recollection with respect to where your hand was in relationship to the towel at the time that you cut your finger?
A: No.
A: Do you have a recollection as to whether your finger began to bleed after you cut your finger?
A: At some point obviously it did.
Q: Do you have a specific recollection of that?
A: Yes.
Q: As you sit here today?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you remember where you were in the hotel room when you first recall seeing any blood that you associated with this cut?
A: In the bathroom.
Q: And when you first saw blood associated with the cut, where were you located in the bathroom?
A: Just in the bathroom. It wasn't a big bathroom. So at some place in the bathroom. I wasn't sitting on the commode, and I wasn't in the shower. I was standing in the bathroom, a relatively small bathroom, yes.
Q: Okay. Were you still cleaning up the glass when you made this observation that you had in fact cut your finger?
A: I don't know. I don't know. I don't recall if I was at that point or not. I know I grabbed some toilet paper and I believe went back to the phone, but once again it was a continual thing that was going on.
Q: Okay. Is it fair to say then that as you sit here today, at the time that you cut your finger, you have no recollection as to whether you had completed this process of putting the glass into the sink or whether you were still involved in that process?
A: That's correct.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, he didn't say he was putting the glass in the sink. He said glass chips in the sink.
MR. BREWER: That's what I meant. I'm sorry.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. That's correct.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Okay. When I use the term "glass" you understand I am talking about the glass particles as a result of the glass breaking.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's fine.
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Okay. All right. And then when you cut your finger, you observed it was bleeding. Right?
A: Well, I saw blood. yes.
Q: And you saw the location of the blood?
A: It was on my hand.
Q: Okay. Did you get a little squeamish when you saw it?
A: No. My mind was on other things that was more pressing.
Q: Okay. That was Nicole, the loss of your ex-wife?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He's gone over that 15 times.
MR. BREWER: Well, I don't know whether it's his travel arrangements or his ex-wife.
Q: What was on your mind that was more pressing?
A: You're really being an asshole right now. My wife's -- the murder of my wife.
Q: And then when you saw that you had glass on your--Strike that. When you saw that you had a cut on your finger, you put some type of toilet paper on it?
A: I grabbed something, yes.
Q: And what did you grab?
A: Toilet paper.
Q: Okay. Did you also grab a washcloth?
A: Maybe .
Q: Maybe meaning you don't recall?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. So you have no recollection as to whether you used a washcloth in order to dab blood off your finger?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. You have a specific memory, however, of grabbing some type of toilet paper?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did you apply that to your finger?
A: I don't know about applied it. I wrapped it.
Q: Okay. How did you wrap it?
A: Just wrapped it.
Q: Did you tie it off?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you somehow affix it to your finger to stop the bleeding?
A: I don't think -- I don't know if I stopped the bleeding or not. I just wrapped my hand -- finger with some toilet paper, yes.
Q: Okay. At any time after you first noticed that you had cut your finger, did you ever get back into your bed?
A: Every time I talked on the phone I was on the bed, yes.
Q: Okay. Did you ever get back into the bed under the covers and pull the covers up?
A: l didn't have to. The covers were flipped back.
Q: Okay. My question is pretty specific: After you cut your finger, did you ever get back into the bed as though you were sleeping, pull the covers back up over on top?
A: No. I fell back on the bed a few times while I was waiting on the phone, but the covers were all flipped back at the time.
Q: Okay. So when you got out of the bed, did you pull the covers down in order to get out?
A: Probably.
Q: Well, do you have a specific recollection as you sit here today?
A: I probably did.
Q: Well, when you say you "probably did," do you have a recollection as to -- one way or the other whether you did or you didn't?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And you recall, however, at some point when you were on the phone sitting on the bed. Is that true?
A: Everytime I got to the phone. The bed was next to the phone that I was using.
Q: Okay. So every occasion where you would get on the phone and talk to someone about travel arrangements or whatever, you would sit on the bed.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And do you recall when you were sitting on the bed whether you were sitting on a bedspread or bed sheets?
A: I believe the sheets.
Q: Okay. And would you sit on the edge of the bed?
A: Yeah. As I said, while I was waiting sometimes I fell back on the bed. Sometimes I was just sitting up on the bed. Whatever.
Q: Well, when you say you were "sitting up on the bed," what do you mean by that?
A: Just what I said.
Q: What does that mean, "sitting up on the bed?" You got physically on the bed and were sitting up with your back against the headboard?
A: Sometimes my shoulder may have been leaning up against the headboard, yes.
Q: Did you ever get on the bed and physically lie down?
A: Yeah, I laid back on it a few times.
Q: Okay. And you were sitting there, laying back, as you were waiting for phone calls or something?
A: No. Sometimes they had me on hold, and sometimes they were trying to find things, you know, whatever they were doing on the other end. Sometimes I was waiting for a call, but I don't think I sat on the bed while I was waiting for a call. I think it was normally when they were trying to find flight arrangements or whatever was -- when I was actually on the phone.
Q: Do you ever recall on any of those occasions sliding your left hand underneath the covers?
A: Sliding, no.
Q: Yeah.
A: No, no recollection of it.
Q: Were you eventually successful in pushing all the glass into the sink, or most of it?
A: From what I could see, yes.
Q: When you say, "From" -- are you talking about your recollection now?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. So you have a recollection at some point of looking into the sink and seeing most of the glass being successfully deposited into the sink?
A: No.
Q: What are you saying?
A: l have a recollection of not seeing any glass that I could further injure myself on. So when I was collecting my things, I didn't see anything. Anything I saw, I kicked into the sink.
Q: Okay. And when you say that you didn't see any glass at all, you are talking about the counter top?
A: Correct.
Q: Do you have a specific recollection as you sit here today of putting your toiletries inside the toiletry bag after you successfully put the glass into the sink?
A: I don't know if that was after or before or what. Maybe some of it was before, some of it may have been after, but I don't have a memory as to the exact sequence of events at that time.
Q: Okay. Let's just focus now on packing up the toiletries and see what you recall and what you don't recall as you sit here today. As you sit here today, do you recall putting any toiletries into your toiletry container or luggage prior to the glass breaking?
A: No.
0: Do you recall putting any of the toiletries into the container that contained the toiletries after the glass was broken?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And do you have a specific recollection of putting any of the toiletries into the luggage after you cut your finger?
A: Specifically, no.
Q: Okay. So is it fair to say that you have no recollection at all with respect to the sequence that we're talking about when you packed your toiletries? Is that fair?
A: I know that I was trying to pack it without the glass, you know. I know it was broken around my toiletries. But specifically when I took my deodorant or something and put it in there, I don't-- can't tell you when that was.
Q: Okay. So you have some recollection, however, of packing some of the toiletries while working around the glass. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you know what you--
A: Or moving the glass.
Q: Excuse me?
A: Or moving the glass; then putting it in, one or the other.
Q: Do you recall what you were putting away at the time?
A: Whatever was in my -- whatever was in my overnight bag.
Q: Do you recall -- do you have a specific recollection of what you were putting away at that time?
A: Whatever was in it. Toothpaste, toothbrush.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, he just asked if you have a specific recollection. If you don't, just tell him.
THE WITNESS: Specifically, no. No.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: When you cut your finger, did you look at the finger and assess whether you thought it needed some type of sutures?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You didn't examine it for glass?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any glass particle that you believe was the source of your cut?
A: No.
Q: Did you look to see whether you could identify the piece of glass that cut your finger?
A: No.
Q: And then you left from the hotel room and you went back downstairs. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And that's where you got the Band-Aid?
A: Yes.
Q: And you got on the plane and headed back home to Rockingham.
True?
A: Yes.
Q: You mentioned in some of the -- of your earlier testimony that you thought you were crying on the plane. Do you remember that?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you on First Class again going back?
A: No.
Q: You were in Coach?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And do you remember at what point you were crying on the plane?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember how long you were crying for?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether anyone was sitting -- Strike that. Do you recall whether anyone was sitting next to you as you were crying?
A: Well, there was a guy sitting two seats over from me. I know that. A seat over, I should say.
Q: Okay. And did he comment to you at all as you were crying?
A: He commented to me a few times during various times of the trip.
Q: Well, do you have a recollection as you sit here today as to whether this gentleman made any comment to you as you were crying, headed back from Chicago to your home?
A: Today, no, not specifically.
Q: You said no, you don't recall?
A: Yes.
Q: You've made the statement in the past that all of Nicole's friends knew how much you loved her. Is that true?
A: I don't know.
Q: Have you ever made such a statement?
A: I may have.
Q: Okay. Is that something you believe?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that something you also believe with respect to the Brown family?
A: Yes.
Q: And--
A: At least Lou and Judy Brown, yes.
Q: Okay. It was your belief as of June 13th that the Brown family, specifically Judy and Lou, knew how much you loved Nicole?
A: Yeah. I think anybody that's ever spent time with Nicole and I knew we loved each other, yes.
Q: Okay. And the basis for that statement is that if they spent time with you, they would have a chance to see how you are together--how you were together and formulate what you believe is the correct interpretation that you were good together. Is that true?
A: No. You asked me about loving together.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's pretty argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I don't think there has been any doubt in Judy and Lou's mind that Nicole and I loved each other.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Okay. How about Denise? Do you think she had-- is it your understanding she had the same belief?
A: Well, I never thought about what Denise thought. Denise was never--and I were never like close.
Q: Okay. Did you believe that most of Nicole's friends had the same opinion of your relationship?
A: The people I consider her friends, yes.
Q: Okay. That they felt you had a good relationship together?
A: Her friends, yeah. They knew that we had our problems, but any time you split, you got problems. But I would say if you went to her close friends, the people who knew her over the years that spent time with us, that they would say we had a decent relationship, yes.
Q: Decent relationship?
A: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: And when you were coming back from Chicago, you attempted to contact the Browns. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And Denise answered the phone. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And the first thing she did--one of the first things she said was to accuse you or suggest that you were somehow responsible for the murders. Is that true?
A: Yeah. She was yelling, but that was the implication that I got, yes.
Q: Okay. Did that surprise you when you heard her suggest that you were somehow responsible for the murders?
A: Yes.
Q: And did it surprise you because you thought she would know, based upon your relationship, that it's something that you could never do?
A: Didn't surprise me for any other reason. It's just a surprise that she was talking to me the way she was, yelling at me the way she was. It surprised me, yes.
Q: Did you ask her whether she had any information that was the basis for her accusation?
A: I couldn't. She hung up.
Q: Did you ever say anything in response to her when she accused you or suggested that you were somehow responsible for the murder?
A: I couldn't. She hung up.
Q: How long was this phone conversation?
A: Quick.
Q: Under five seconds?
A: I don't know. She just was yelling, and then she hung up.
Q: And did you ever have occasion to--did you have a chance to deny to Denise that you were responsible for the death of Nicole?
A: She hung up. I couldn't say anything.
Q: Did you ever call back after she hung up?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Was that on the same plane flight?
A: Maybe not. I talked to Judy, I believe. May have been Lou.
Q: When you heard this comment from Denise, were you at all concerned that somehow Lou or Judy shared the same view: That you were somehow responsible for the death of Nicole?
A: I didn't give it any thought.
Q: Did you ever attempt on the flight back to find out whether they shared that view?
A: No.
Q: Who were the good friends of Nicole that you believe felt that you and Nicole had a strong relationship?
A: When you say "strong relationship," they knew that we loved each other. I don't think there's any doubt that Nicole and I loved each other. Even when we were apart, we always said we loved each other.
But the people who I think were her good friends were Suzie Rehoe over the years, Pam Schwartz, Cora Fishman. I would say of all of her friends, the ones that were her friends for years and were still her friends at her death, that these were the people who probably knew her best and knew her longest.
Q: So the three women that you identified would be the people--the friends that would come to mind of Nicole's that would have some knowledge of the quality of your relationship?
A: Yes.
Q: And that it was a good relationship?
A: Yes, for the most part, yes.
Q: And that you loved one another?
A: Yes.
Q: Cora Fishman ever suggest to you that you were responsible for the death of Nicole?
A: No.
Q: She ever ask you whether you were responsible for the death?
A: No.
Q: She ever ask you whether you had any knowledge--
A: She might have asked me. Not then, but maybe later on, but I'm not sure. l can't answer that question. She may have asked me later on.
Q: Do you have a recollection as you sit here today of some conversation or discussion with Cora where this topic came up, your possible involvement in these murders?
A: I think when I was in jail, I may have talked to Cora once when I--on the phone.
Q: Okay.
A: And she may said, "You didn't do this, and I said, No, and then we talked about whatever there was, you know.
Q: And did you call or her or did she call you?
A: No. I had to call. I had to make the calls.
Q: Okay. And you remember having a discussion where she said something to the effect that you didn't do this?
A: She may have said, OJ. you didn't do this, did you?" or something to that effect.
Q: OJ. you didn't do this, question mark?
A: I can't quote it. That was the gist, I believe, of what she asked.
Q: Okay. Well, what I am trying to discern, it was a question as opposed to a statement.
A: Yes.
Q: True?
A: Yes.
Q: And given your understanding of what she knew of your relationship, were you surprised that she would even ask you the question?
A: No.
Q: You weren't surprised?
A: No.
Q: And were you not surprised because of information that had come out implicating your involvement in the murders?
A: No.
Q: Was what the reason why you weren't surprised?
A: Because I was in jail and accused by the prosecution of committing this crime.
Q: So by the mere fact that you were in jail and accused--
A: The mere fact?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Mere fact? If you're in jail for 15 months, it wouldn't be a mere fact, I can assure you of that.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Well, did you know at the time you were going to be in jail for 15 months when you had this discussion with Cora Fishman?
A: I was in jail.
Q: Okay. How long had you been in jail at the time you had the discussion with her?
A: Maybe three, four months.
Q: Okay. Had the prosecution already begun?
A: I don't know. When you say, "Had the prosecution, they had arrested me and they had me in jail.
Q: Let me ask it differently: Had you already gone through a preliminary hearing?
A: I don't recall. I believe so.
Q: You believe you had already gone through the preliminary hearing at the time you had this conversation with Cora?
A: I believe it was three or four months into my incarceration, so that would have been--I believe that would have been after any hearing.
Q: Was this the first time that you had spoken with Cora after the murders?
A: Other than commiserating with one another at the wake, I believe,
yes.
Q: Okay. So you had a brief discussion at the wake. Right?
A: Well, it wasn't a discussion. She was crying and I was hugging her, and she was, you know--and it was more of a commiseration, you know, whatever you say at times like that to one another.
Q: Okay. Other than that occasion that you just described, this was the second occasion where you had a discussion with Cora Fishman?
A: This was the first occasion I had a discussion with Cora Fishman, yes.
Q: And did you call her specifically to discuss your alleged involvement in the murders?
A: I believe I called her just to find out what had--what was going on. I may have asked her what had been going on.
Q: What do you mean by that?
A: I felt I was out of the mix as what was going on with the girls, you know, at that time, and I was--you know, I was, like everybody else, trying to find out what was going on.
Q: Well, did you call Cora because you wanted to find out what she would say if she testified?
A: No.
Q: Did you want to find out what she recalled about your relationship with Nicole?
A: You know what I wanted? I remember specifically. I wanted to make sure that I wasn't deluded, and I think I may have said this to her, because -- this may have been a lot more than three or four months, because I know things were coming out that Faye Resnick had been saying, and what I wanted--I just wanted to hear someone say that the Nicole that I knew--that I wasn't this far off base, that the Nicole I knew wasn't the person that I was hearing. And some of the things that I was hearing at that time I wasn't
buying, and I just needed to hear from someone who I felt was a friend of Nicole's have the same--you know, that we were talking about the same person.
Q: Was the impetus behind your call to Cora the information that had come out in Faye's book?
A: I believe so. I know it was just a lot of--and most of the negative stuff I heard was from Faye's book or, you know, Faye was saying, and it was just disillusioning.
Q: And the negative information that you're referring to in Faye's book was information that relates to you beating Nicole?
A: No, no. It was about things that Nicole--this Brentwood hello and all of this horrible stuff that was just not Nicole, just not the Nicole that I knew.
Q: I missed that one. The Brentwood hello"?
A: Yeah. Read the book. You'll know what it is. I'm not going to discuss it.
Q: Was any purpose behind your call to Cora to try to corroborate or check claims by Faye Resnick in her book relative to your battering of Nicole?
A: No. No.
Q: None whatsoever?
A: None whatsoever.
Q: Didn't come up in the conversation?
A: For what reason? There was never any battering of Nicole other than '89, and Faye was--four years before she came into our lives, so whatever Faye would say on that area would not know.
Q: You asked Cora whether Nicole had said anything to her about these alleged incidents. Did you ask her something like that?
A: No. Nicole and I had one incident. That was in '89. I knew Cora knew about that, so there was no reason for me to talk about that.
Q: So you deny that there was any discussion between you and Cora at that time regarding alleged incidents of spousal abuse. True?
A: There was none.
Q: You were present when Mr. Kaelin testified. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember his description of the bag that was behind your Bentley?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember him describing it as kind of a knapsack?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you own a knapsack similar to what Mr. Kaelin described?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever?
A: A book bag, no.
Q: Not a book bag. Anything that's reasonably similar to the description of the bag that Mr. Kaelin gave at his deposition.
A: Well, his description was much like the bag that we saw in the picture.
Q: Okay. He described something like a college book bag or something of that nature. Do you recall that?
A: Yeah. but I don't--the backpack things, I've never owned one, no. My kids have, but I haven't.
Q: Well, when you say your "kids have, did they have one at your residence at Rockingham as of June 12, 1994?
A: I doubt it, but they may have.
Q: It's possible that one was around the premises?
A: It's possible.
Q: Do you have a recollection as you sit here today of seeing one around the premises on or before June 12th, 1994?
MR. PETROCELLI: What is it we're talking about?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: He is talking about--
THE WITNESS: Kind of a backpack.
MR. PETROCELLI: A backpack that mounts on the back.
MR. BREWER: Right.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: You have a recollection of seeing that?
A: Yes.
Q: Where do you recall seeing one of those?
A: On my kids' backs, in my kitchen, in their rooms. Whenever they're going to school, that's what they carried.
Q: When is the last time you have a recollection of seeing a backpack similar to what you just described?
A: Specifically, I can't say.
Q: Do you know whether your kids had one in their rooms at Rocking-
ham?
A: No.
Q: When you say you've seen one in the kitchen, was there a backpack of that type that was stored in the kitchen?
A: No, but whenever they came in from school, that's where they dumped everything: In the kitchen.
Q: Talking about just temporarily sitting on the counter top?
A: Yes.
Q: Mr. Kaelin also described an outfit that you were wearing that included --he used the term jogging suit or something of that nature, that had a white zipper down the front. Do you recall that description?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you own a jogging suit or a jogging top that's similar to the description that Mr. Kaelin provided?
A: No.
Q: Do you own any garment that has a white zipper down the front?
A: I don't know.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: In a dark background, I take it.
MR. BREWER: No.
Q: Let's just talk about the white zipper. Do you own any garment that has a white zipper down the front?
A: I don't know. I would have to look at all my things--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I mean, you mean--
THE WITNESS:-- and see if something has a white zipper.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Pardon me. You mean something that not--a jacket may have a white zipper, a windbreaker, I mean, anything. Is that--
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: I want to include that. I want to include a windbreaker or a jacket or something that you would put on your upper body, and this is as of June 12, 1994, that has a white zipper down the front.
A: I may have, but I have no--I'd have to look at all my clothes and see.
Q: Well, do you have a specific recollection as you sit here today of owning such a garment?
A: No.
Q: Do you have a closet downstairs where you keep jackets like that?
A: No.
Q: All of your clothes would be kept upstairs in your bedroom?
A: Yeah. I may have some things in my entry closet that I just had her put in there because of this cold weather, but my things are normally kept upstairs in my closet.
Q: Okay. When you say I...have some things in my entry closet that I had her put in there," are you talking about asking Gigi or someone?
A: Yes.Yes.
Q: Is that something you did recently?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. As of June 994, did you store any jackets or garments in your entryway closet?
A: I mean, coming in from being out, sometimes maybe temporarily I may have put something in there, but basically my stuff is kept in my closet.
Q: When you heard Mr. Kaelin describing the garment that he observed you in, did you know what garment he was talking about?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you believe he was mistaken when he was describing a garment that you wore to McDonald's having a white zipper?
A: I knew he was mistaken.
Q: Okay. And why did you know that?
A: Because I knew that's not what I had on.
Q: Okay. Because you knew you were wearing a different type of garment?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you worn anything that entire day that resembled the garment that was described by Mr. Kaelin in his deposition?
A: You know, I can't say yes or no because I can't--the way he talks, I don't know what he perceives when he sees things, you know, so I can't say.
Q: Well, he described something fairly specifically: A jogging top or jogging suit with a white zipper. My question to you is: At any time on the 12th do you recall wearing anything that fit that description?
A: Jogging stuff, no.
Q: Well, any type of upper-body garment, whether it be a windbreaker, jacket, jogging suit, with a white zipper. Anything that's similar to that?
A: I don't know if it had a white zipper, but I had on a jacket, yeah.
Q: And what color was the jacket that you had on?
A: Blue.
Q: And when did you put that jacket on?
A: To go to McDonald's.
Q: Okay. Does that--Do you believe that may have a white zipper?
A: Doesn't seem like it does, but it could have.
Q: Okay. So as you sit here today, we're not clear one way or the other whether it has a white zipper. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Is it a windbreaker?
A: I think it could be used as a windbreaker, yes.
Q: Okay. Well, can you describe--When I say "windbreaker, I'm talking about kind of like the polyester-type material. Is that what this material is made out of, or cotton or some other material?
A: I'm sure it's cotton.
Q: Okay. So it's a soft cotton material?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And is it a jacket that you put on or--
A: Yes.
Q: It's like a sweat jacket?
A: No.
Q: Well, what is its purpose? I mean, help us with this.
A: When you play golf, if it's a windy day or maybe you get a little rainy, you would put this on.
Q: I see. So it kind of keeps you warm but has--makes--you're able still to swing a golf club?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it something that you've purchased at a golf course?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you know where you got it?
A: No.
Q: Did it have any particular insignias on it, Riviera" or anything of that nature?
A: No.
Q: And it was a zipper in the front?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And so you could zip it up if you wanted to make yourself warmer, theoretically?
A: Yes.
Q: And was it dark blue or light blue?
A: Little lighter, lighter than what you have on, but, you know. blue. It wasn't ocean, it wasn't aqua blue. but blue.
Q: This to me is a dark blue suit (Indicating). Is that--
A: A little lighter than that.
Q: Little lighter than that?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. It wasn't as light as sky blue, was it?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Somewhere between dark blue and sky blue?
A: Yes.
Q: And where did you get that jacket from?
A: What do you mean?
Q: Well, did you get it from your closet?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Upstairs?
A: Yes.
Q: And is the first time that you recall putting it on that day prior to going to McDonald's?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And were you also wearing dark blue pants at that time?
A: My golf pants, yes.
Q: Okay. Those were dark blue. Right?
A: Yeah.Yeah.
Q: And so if you had this jacket zipped up, you would have had dark blue pants on and a somewhat of a dark blue top on. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you don't recall the color of your shirt. Right?
A: No.
Q: And is that basically how you were attired when you went to McDonald's?
A:Yes.
Q: Okay. And when you got back from McDonald's, did you take that jacket off?
A:Yes.
Q: I am going to call it a jacket, so we are clear. Okay?
A: Yeah.
Q: Do you recall what you did with that jacket?
A: Hung it up in my closet.
Q: Okay. And did you put it on hanger?
A: Probably, yes.
Q: Okay. Still have it today?
A:Yes.
Q: And if we asked you to go in your closet and locate it and identify it, you would be able to do that?
A: Maybe. Depending if I can get it back. You guys keep all my things. I showed it to Detective Lange, and he didn't find it interesting.
Q: Well, I am not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you concerned about us taking possession of it?
A: Yes. I said I can't get nothing back from you guys.
Q: Assuming we didn't do that, you'd be able to go in your closet and locate that jacket--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He wouldn't do it unless you get a court order, I
can assure you.
BY MR.BREWER:
Q: Well, let's assume that in a perfect world we got a court order, and Mr. Baker was in a good mood that day and actually allowed us to go in and get that jacket.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I wouldn't even allow you on the property, so I am not going to allow you to go in the closet.
BY MR.BREWER:
Q: Would you be able to locate that jacket, Mr. Simpson?
A:Yes.
Q: And when is the last time you looked at that jacket?
A: Maybe yesterday. I may have wore it yesterday.
Q: Do you have a recollection of wearing it yesterday?
A: Not really, but I know I wear it a lot. I even wore it here one day.
Q: It's one of your favorite jackets?
A: No. It's just a windbreaker. It's a good windbreaker, like this jacket I have with me (Indicating).
Q: Okay. We would ask that you preserve it and not discard it.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to take any advice, legal or otherwise.
MR.BREWER:
Q: We are going to ask that you preserve it.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You've asked.
BY MR.BREWER:
Q: How about the pants that you were wearing when you went to McDonald's? Do you remember what you did with those pants?
A: I think I laid them in the bathroom.
Q: Did you hang them up?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell the detectives that you hung them up?
A: No.
Q: If you did, would that be inaccurate?
A: I took them and showed them to him. I think they were still there the next day. After they took all their pictures, they were still in there.
Q: Who did you show them to? Detective Lange?
A: Lange, yes.
Q: And you said, These are the pants that I wore last night"?
A: Yeah, "Those there are the pants that I wore last night.
Q: Okay. When you say those there"--
A: Well, he was with me with Bob Kardashian and Skip Taft, and we went into my closet, and we came out and walked into my bathroom.
Q: Okay. And when you said. "those there, you were in the bathroom when you pointed them out?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And where were they located in the bathroom?
A: They were laying across the tub. They had evidently emptied my hamper and laid a lot of other stuff out.
Q: And you have a number of pants that are similar to the pants that you showed Detective Lange, don't you?
A: Yes.
Q: I believe they're Bugle Boy or something like that?
A: Yes.
Q: And you get those for free, don't you?
A: Yeah, I got a lot of them for free. I bought them before I started getting them for free, yes.
Q: Okay. And you have a lot of pants in the same color as the ones that you showed Detective Lange?
A: Not anymore, but I did.
Q: At the time?
A: Yes.
Q: More than 10 pair, for example?
A: The same color?
Q: Same color.
A: No. No. No.
Q: More than three pair?
A: No, maybe two or three pair.
Q: So you had two or three pair that were the same color as the pants that you showed Detective Lange on the 13th?
A: That's correct.
Q: You know the gentleman that you told us about who was on the plane next to you when you were--there were occasions when you were crying?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, that's the guy -- There was apparently a seat between them.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Okay. The one that we talked about, the person that was next to you with the seat in between.
A: Do I know him?
Q: No. Do you remember that, that --
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did that person--do you know that person's name?
A: Well, I saw him in court, but l can't tell you his name right now.
Q: Okay. Did he sit in that same seat all the way back from Chicago?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was a five-, six-hour flight, roughly?
A: No. I would say about a four-hour flight, four to five maybe.
Q: Okay. And so you were basically sitting roughly in the same position next to him for about four or five hours?
A: Yes.
Q: Mr. Simpson, have you ever seen the location of the socks that were found by the Los Angeles Police Department?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: What do you mean by that?
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: The location of your socks when they were found by the Los Angeles Police Department on the carpet.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Do you mean has he ever seen a picture of where they say they were found, or was he ever in the room after he got back on the 13th and saw the socks in his bedroom where the police say they were found?
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Well, since you did that, let me just ask a different question: Do you remember where you left your socks after you took them off?
A: Specifically, no, but I would have put them either in my shoes or in my dirty clothes hamper, one or the other.
Q: And that would be under ordinary, normal circumstances. Right?
A: That's virtually all the time, yeah.
Q: Okay. And that's because you're a very neat person. Right?
A: Basically, yeah.
Q: So unless something unusual is happening, you would always put your socks away and hang up your pants and hang up your shirts and things like that. Right?
A: That's what I did all the time, yes.
Q: Okay. Now, have you ever seen a photograph that was actually introduced into evidence at the time of your criminal trial by the prosecution that depicted the location where the police indicated or claimed that they found your socks?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you recall whether you left your socks on the carpet in front of your bed when you undressed on the evening of June l2, 1994?
A: No, I wouldn't have, no.
Q: Okay. When you say you wouldn't have, do you have a specific recollection as you sit here today of taking your socks off and doing something with them specifically?
A: I have a specific recollection of undressing in my closet, yes.
Q: Okay. Well, do you have a specific recollection as you sit here today of taking off your socks?
A: I specifically remember undressing in my closet. That's where I always undress, there or my bathroom. That night I specifically remember undressing in my closet because I was also getting redressed in my closet.
Q: Well, I am being a little bit more specific than just undressing. I am focusing on a particular piece of apparel. Do you have a specific recollection of taking off your socks as you were undressing the evening of June 12, 1994?
A: I specifically recall totally undressing in my closet. I specifically recall putting on my white socks in my closet.
Q: Okay. And taking off your other socks while you were in your closet?
A: Well, evidently I took them off, but I do specifically recall undressing in my closet, yes.
Q: And when you say evidently took them off," is it fair to say that you don't have a specific recollection of actually taking them off as you sit here today testifying?
A: Well, I know I didn't have the socks on underneath white socks, so I knew I took them off in the closet, yes.
Q: You know, I am just asking what your recollection is. I mean, there are certain inferences that you can draw, but I am just asking what you remember as you sit here today.
A: I remember other than my underwear totally undressing in my bath -- in my closet and putting on other things in my closet except for my pants, because I had to go in my bathroom to put them on.
Q: Okay. So in your mind's eye can you envision as you sit here today reaching down and pulling off your socks?
A: I just remember undressing, don't remember, my mind's eye, unzipping my pants, but I knew in my closet is where I changed, and I specifically recall doing that.
Q: And putting white socks on?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was done inside your closet?
A: Yes.
Q: And as you sit here today, do you specifically recall exactly what you did with your black socks?
A: I either put them in my shoes, which is what I believe I did, or if they were really dirty, I normally would throw them in the clothes--the hamper. So they should have been in my shoes.
Q: Okay. Now, you've indicated what you normally do and what you believe you did. What do you recall if anything, doing relative to those socks after you took them off?
A: I believe--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you have no recollection--
THE WITNESS: I have no recollection.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: That's all I am asking for.
A: I have no recollection.
Q: Okay. So as you sit here today. you don't have a specific recollection of what you did with the socks after you took them off. Is that a fair statement?
A: I put them in my shoes, I'm pretty sure. If they were dirty, I would have put them in the hamper, but I'm pretty sure I put them in my shoes.
Q: Now, Mr. Simpson, do you have a recollection of what you did with the socks?
A: Other than taking them off in my closet, no.
MR. BREWER: Okay. Want to take five minutes?
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Sure.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:30.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 2:49.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Mr. Simpson, you indicated in earlier testimony that after you returned from Chicago, you decided to go over to Bob Kardashian's house and spend the night. Do you recall that testimony?
A: Well, when I--yes. Yes.
Q: Was that on the 13th or the 14th?
A: That was the 13th.
Q: 13th?
A: I believe so. No, it may have been the 14th. My days are confused. 14th.
Q: Okay.
A: On the 14th.
Q: When you got back from the police station after giving your statement, you basically stayed the rest of the day and evening of the 13th at your home. Is that true?
A: What was left of it, yes.
Q: Okay. And do you recall approximately what time you got back?
A: It was 5:30, 6:00 o'clock.
Q: Okay. And there were a number of friends that had come by. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And you spent much of that time watching television?
A: I don't know about much. I spent an hour or two I believe watching TV, and then I went up to my bedroom. I was exhausted.
Q: Okay. And you spent the hour or two watching various news reports. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And is this the occasion where you heard the Avila news report: On the 13th when you got back to your house?
A: I don't recall. It was that week; I know that, but I don't know if it was really that day or not.
Q: Do you recall at some point hearing or learning, again other than conversations you had with your attorneys, that the police suspected that the murderer who dropped blood at the crime scene had cut his or her left extremity?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you ever hear that?
A: In court.
Q: Was that the first time you ever heard that?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You recall some--Strike that. You have some recollection of hearing court testimony wherein people testified that or theorized that the killer had cut himself on the left extremity as they were leaving because they were dripping blood as they were leaving the murder site?
A: There was--I think at one point that was a theory, one of the theories, yes.
Q: Okay.
A: Or something to that effect. I can't tell you specifically, but I believe that was one of the theories.
Q: And do you remember in connection with that theory the notion that the blood drops were located to the left of the bloody footprints?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I am going to object and instruct him not to answer. What he learned in court is irrelevant and immaterial to any issue in this case.
BY MR.BREWER:
Q: Well, let me just ask: Have you heard that at any point?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, if you heard it after-- No. I am going to instruct him not to answer that.
MR. BREWER: Well, I don't think it's irrelevant because it may also explain why there is a change in his police statement.
Q: Have you heard that?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR.BREWER:
Q: Were you ever--Strike that. Did you ever think about the idea that you had cut your left finger and that there were reports that the murderer was bleeding from his left extremity as he was
leaving the murder scene?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR.BREWER:
Q: On the 13th after you watched TV for about an hour or an hour and a half, you went upstairs. Is that right?
A: Yeah, whatever time it was. I don't think I used hour and a half, but whatever time I watched TV, then I went upstairs, yes.
Q: Do you have an estimate how long you watched TV for?
A: Could have been a few hours.
Q: Do you recall people screaming at the TV or yelling at the TV upon hearing various news reports?
A: Yelling at the TV?
Q: Well, saying something to the TV to the effect that That's not true " or, oj you know, "That's false," things of that nature?
A: People, no.
Q: Okay. Did you hear anyone say anything in response to a news report that implied that the news report was false?
A: I can't recall.
Q: Okay. And when you went upstairs, did you then fall asleep?
A: I think I was asleep and awake and asleep and awake throughout the night, yes.
Q: Okay. And you don't recall any discussion, after you went upstairs, with Ron Shipp?
A: No.
Q: When you say you don't recall, is it possible you had a conversation with him and you don't recall the conversation?
A: Everybody--not everybody, but numerous people I recall came up to say good night to me, that they were leaving, and he could have been one of those people.
Q: Okay. Do you have a recollection as you sit here today of Ron Shipp coming into your bedroom?
A: No.
Q: Do you have a conversation--Strike that. Do you have a recollection as you sit here today of talking with Ron Shipp while you were upstairs?
A: No.
Q: Do you have a recollection as you sit here today of having any conversation at all with Ron Shipp as of June 13?
A: I knew he was there and like everyone else, you know, they spoke to me from time to time, and I knew he was there.
Q: Okay. Do you have a recollection as you sit here today having some conversation with Mr. Shipp?
A: Well, I knew he spoke to me, I knew he hugged me at one point, so I kinda recall that.
Q: Okay. When you say "he spoke" to you, do you have a recollection of the subject matter of the conversation that you had?
A: Other than condolences and stuff like that, no.
Q: Okay. You recall specifically Mr. Shipp giving -- extending some condolences to you?
A: Specifically everybody was, so maybe I'm assuming that he did, but everybody was.
Q: Don t assume for the purpose of my question.
A: Okay.
Q: I want to know what you have a recollection of.
A: Okay.
Q: As you sit here today, do you have recollection of anything that you talked about with Ron Shipp on June 13, 1994?
A: Specifically what we talked about, no.
Q: Okay. Do you recall talking to him at about DNA?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall talking to him about polygraphs?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall talking to him about dreams that you had of killing Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well -- Go ahead.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Do you recall having any conversations at all concerning dreams?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall having any conversations with Mr. Shipp at all concerning thoughts that you had about killing Nicole?
A: No.
Q: With respect to the events of June l2th that we have gone through and you've gone through for some period of time, are there any periods of time for like an hour or longer where you have absolutely no memory of what you did, where you blacked out?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You mean while he was asleep on the airplane?
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: No, forget about sleeping. Where you were awake, alert, where you believe you may have blacked out for some reason.
A: I know I was always awake. I don't know how alert I was, but I was certainly awake all -- you know.
Q: Okay. l am not talking about when you're asleep. I am just talking about -- let's just take the 12th, for example. Do you recall -- after 6:00 o'clock, between 6:00 and 12:00 on June 12. Do you recall any occasions where you just blacked out for an hour, where you just don't remember what you did for a solid hour?
A: For an hour? No, I don't think so. I think I may have--when I first got back, maybe from 2:00 to 5:00 I may have dozed once in a while, but I'm not sure because I was reading my book and the TV was on, and I may have dozed during that period of time.
Q: In the five years before Nicole's death, do you recall any occasions where you became so angry with her or under any circumstances where you simply blacked out a particular event?
A: No.
Q: Has that ever happened to you in any context, where you have lost your memory for an appreciable period of time?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You can answer it within a five-year span.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Yeah, within a five-year span.
THE WITNESS: Within a five-year span?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: No. not within a five-year span, no.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Well, has that ever happened?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, don't answer that. That's too remote to be of any--
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Well, say within 10 years?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
THE WITNESS: Ten years, no.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry.
MR. PETROCELLI: You are a potted plant.
MR. BREWER: Why is that irrelevant if he is implying that there may be--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If he answers--
MR. BREWER: If he has a systemic condition that somehow causes him to have memory loss or blackouts--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Really?
MR. BREWER: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Thank you, Doctor, thank you very much. The last time I heard you got a medical degree will be the next time, and he is not going to answer the question.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Let me ask it this way: Do you have to your knowledge any medical condition that causes you to have a memory loss?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any medical conditions that you're aware of that causes you to have a diminished capacity to recall significant events?
A: A medical condition that I have? No.
Q: Did you sleep the entire evening of the l3th into the l4th, the best you recall?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Other than what he just testified to, that he was awake and asleep and awake and asleep?
THE WITNESS: I was up -- I was awake and asleep and awake and asleep.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Did you have any conversations with anyone on the morning, say between 12:00 o'clock p.m. and 6:00 o'clock a.m. on the -- between the 13th and 14th?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't know what you mean by 12:00 o'clock p.m. Do you mean midnight and 6:00 a.m.?
MR. BREWER: Yeah. Very good.
THE WITNESS: Conversations, no. My sister -- I may have had a word with my sister during that period of time, but it wouldn't have been a conversation.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Didn't talk to anyone on the telephone?
A: No.
Q: Okay. The following day, on the 14th, you've already described a trip that you took with Mr. Kardashian to get your golf clubs. Right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, he described a trip and--
THE WITNESS: And then during the course of the trip, we also got--during the course of driving around, we did pick up my golf clubs.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Okay. I am not going to go back through it. I just want to highlight the fact that you've already testified about that. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall what else you did that day, not just--Strike that. Do you recall what time you left Kardashian's house?
A: When?
Q: On the morning of the 14th.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Left Kardashian's house on the morning of the 14th?
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Well, did you leave Kardashian's house on the morning of the 14th or your house to go get the golf clubs?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, he didn't leave from either house--
THE WITNESS: Not on the 14th. No. No. No is the answer.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Where did you meet up with Mr. Kardashian on the 14th?
A: At my house.
Q: Okay. Did you leave from your house with him?
A: Yes.
Q: And is that when you went to Nicole's and ultimately went down and got the golf clubs?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Where did you go initially?
A: My office .
Q: And then you went from your office to?
A: To--well, when we left my office, we were waiting for my kids, and we drove by Nicole's.
Q: Okay. And then you went to the airport.
A: Well, then we drove, and then during the course of driving around we did stop at the airport, yes.
Q: And then did you go back to Kardashian's?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you spend the rest of the day there?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you go anywhere else that day?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You slept there that evening?
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Were you here the first five days?
MR.BREWER: Is that a question? Statement?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I think you're being an asshole.
MR. BREWER: Well, that's two of you.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: You're next, Dan.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You bet.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Now going to the 15th, you saw Dr. Huizenga for an examination. Right?
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. And when you saw Dr. Huizenga for an examination, did you fill out a history?
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. And did you also have any X rays taken?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You mentioned earlier you thought you had some blood withdrawn?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was the same day as the wake: On the 15th. Correct?
A: l believe so.
Q: Now, after the murder of Nicole, you offered--you made an offer, a public offer of half a million dollars, I believe, for any information leading to the names or identities of individuals involved in the murders. Is that correct?
A: l believe so.
Q: Do you recall when you first made that offer?
A: No
Q: Is that something that you came up with on your own?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. We are not going to get into any more questions about that. Or you can go into all the questions you want; he's not going to answer.
MR. BREWER: Okay.
Q: Do you recall how information was processed in connection with this offer?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Do you know whether anyone called in with information that implicated you in the murders?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Do you know whether anyone called in with information that implicated anyone else in the murders?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: And don't answer that.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Do you know whether any information has been stored or preserved relative to leads or information that came in?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
MR. BREWER: On what grounds, Mr. Baker?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's irrelevant and immaterial to any issue in this case.
MR. BREWER: Okay. Relevancy?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You're not taking my depo.
MR. BREWER: I just want to know the basis for your objection.
Q: When Mr. Kaelin testified at his deposition, he described a process where you and he went to the eastern -- one of you went to the eastern portion of the pathway or in that direction and the other to the western portion of the pathway to look back behind you. Do you recall that?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall any occasion on the 12th where you and Mr. Kaelin agreed that you would go around to the pathway and look down there to see what was the source of the noises that he described to you?
A: Yeah, I recall us talking about that. Me making that suggestion, that is.
Q: You made that suggestion?
A: I believe so.
Q: Do you recall ever actually moving towards -- making any affirmative effort to move towards the pathway to look down to see whether you could determine the origin of the noises that he described?
A: I tried at one point when I was coming back from the Bronco. I did look, but it was dark, and that's when we talked about getting a flashlight.
Q: This is when you went out to the Bronco--
A: Yeah, and I was coming back, and they were -- I guess they were talking about flashlights at the time.
Q: Okay. Just so my question is on the record, this is when you went out to the Bronco to get the telephone case?
A: Yes.
Q: And then on your way back, you went over and made some effort to look up the pathway?
A: No. As I was walking back, l could see it was dark there, and I said, "well, let's" -- "you go one way and I'll go around the other way.' It was at the time -- Yes. I said, "You go one way and I'll go the other way," and that's when he made a comment about flashlights, and that's what initiated all the flashlight stuff.
Q: Okay. Going inside and looking for the flashlight?
A: Yeah.
Q: And after that, other than making a comment, did you ever then go to either side of the pathway to look down to see whether you could determine the origin of the noises that he referred to?
A: We never found the flashlight, and I had to go.
Q: Did you make two trips to the Bronco at the time that the limo was in the driveway?
A: No.
Q: Just one trip?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And this was on the trip back from the Bronco, so we're clear. Right?
A: When I was coming back from the Bronco, he was standing --they were like in the front there. I can't tell you exactly where they were. Kato was still talking about going around the side, and as I was coming back, I was talking to him, and I said something about, "You go one way and I'll go the other way," and that's when I became aware that there was a real flashlight problem.
Q: Okay. And then after you went through the flashlight episode, trying to locate a flashlight, you came out and got into the limousine?
A: Got directly into the limo.
Q: The '89 incident that you've described in some detail during the course of this deposition, you indicated that that altercation or the "harassing," as you've described it, was basically an effort on your part to get Nicole out of the bedroom. Is that fair?
A: That's correct.
Q: Did you ever rassle her and attempt to get her out of the house?
A: No. She actually ran out of the house. No, I didn't rassle her to get her out of the house.
Q: Okay. There were a couple episodes where she came into the bedroom and you rassled and got her out, and then she came back in and you rassled to get her out again. Is that correct?
A: There was only one episode of that.
Q: There was only one?
A: Yeah. She went out and I locked the door at one point, but she got a key and got in.
Q: Okay. Did the altercation start inside the bedroom?
A: Yeah. It started with me. I was in bed, and she came to the bed.
Q: Okay. Did it start with the conversation and escalate to an argument and escalate further to an altercation?
A: Yeah, I believe. I don't know a conversation, but it started -- pretty much started off as an argument.
Q: Just started right off with somebody arguing?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. Did she start it?
A: Yes.
Q: And you got her out initially by rassling?
A: Initially.
Q: She came back in, and then you got her out again. Is that correct?
A: No, that's not what I said at all.
Q: Okay. How am I wrong?
A: She went out. I locked the door. She evidently went downstairs and got a key and came back in, and that's when the wrestling portion--
Q: I see.
A: --the physical portion, began.
Q: I see. And then the wrestling was basically inside your bedroom then?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you eventually were able to get her outside of the bedroom?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you lock the door?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you have some understanding that she left the house at that point?
A: I saw her leave the house.
Q: Okay. How did you see her leave the house?
A: I came downstairs at one point because my alarm went blank, and she was smoking a cigarette at the back door, and when she saw me, she went out back.
Q: When your "alarm went blank," what do you mean by that?
A: You know, if a door or something is open, it goes blank, no color at all. Green if it's off and not engaged, red if it's engaged, and nothing if there's a door open or something.
Q: So the alarm, was it deactivated?
A: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: You mean she pushed in the code and deactivated the alarm?
A: I don't know, but the--there was a door open somewhere, something was open somewhere, and the alarm signal showed that.
Q: Well, what I am trying to find out is: Was the door open during the period where the alarm was activated, or was the alarm deactivated and then the door was --
A: I don't recall. I just know that when I noticed, that there was a door open somewhere.
Q: Doesn't your alarm have an audible noise that is made if a there is a door open during an activated period?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you hear any noises?
A: No. As I said, I looked at one point and saw that there was a door open somewhere.
Q: Okay. And then you went downstairs, and that's when you saw her leave?
A: Well, she saw me, and she was smoking a cigarette, and then she ran out the back door.
Q: Okay. Were you coming towards her when she ran out the book door?
A: When I saw her, I wasn't really coming towards her. I was just trying to observe things. And when she went out the back door, I went upstairs and got a robe, and then I came out and went out the back door.
Q: As you were coming towards her downstairs, were you just walking towards her?
A: As I told you, when I saw her, she went out the back door and I went upstairs and got a robe, and then I came back downstairs and went out the back door.
Q: Before she left the back door, did you say anything to her?
A: No.
Q: Were you yelling at her?
A: No.
Q: And when she went outside, you went upstairs and got your robe and came back downstairs?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have any further altercation outside?
A: No. I didn't see her outside.
Q: Do you know whether she slipped and fell outside?
A: She wouldn't have at that point, because when I did see her, she didn't have mud on her.
Q: I'm sorry?
A: She wouldn't have at that point, because I never saw her with mud on her until I saw the pictures.
Q: Okay. Do you know how she got the mud on her that you indicated was depicted in the photographs?
A: I know what was told later.
Q: And what's your understanding of what was told?
A: That when she was running out of Michelle's room, she fell.
Q: Did you ever see her go to Michelle's room?
A: I saw her in Michelle's room.
Q: Okay. And did you see her run from Michelle's room.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see her fall?
A: No.
Q: Do you know where she fell or where she allegedly fell?
A: No.
Q: During any of the rassling that you were engaged in during the '89 incident, did you ever take her face and push it into a wall?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever push it into a door?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever take her face and push it into the floor?
A: No.
Q: Was the altercation that you had with her always on a carpet?
A: Well, it's only carpet in that -- well, in her -- I believe so. I don't know if we got into her bathroom at all, because as you get to the door, she has a hard floor there. But, yeah, there's carpet throughout the house. I would think so.
Q: Do you recall any of the altercation occurring on that hard floor that you've described?
A: No. No. It could have, could not have. I really don't recall.
Q: Do you know--Strike that. Do you have any information that any of the bruises that were apparent after the '89 incident were self-inflicted by Nicole?
A: No.
Q: And you've indicated on a number of occasions that you have taken responsibility for those bruises. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And do you mean by that statement that you have taken responsibility that you caused them?
A: If I caused them or if they happened when she fell. I think was the genesis of it all. So if it happened anywhere, I take responsibility for it.
Q: Do you have any information that any bruise on her face was caused when she fell?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if she struck her face when she fell?
A: No.
Q: Was she on the grass or the driveway when she fell?
A: I don't know. I didn't see.
Q: Have you ever seen any reports or information wherein she described her location when she fell?
A: No.
Q: When the police came in connection with the '89 incident, you spoke with the police officer. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you believe at the time that you spoke with the police officer that there was a possibility you were going to be arrested?
A: No.
Q: Did you believe that at the time you spoke with the police officer you may have committed a crime?
A: No.
Q: You had no idea?
A: Correct.
Q: While you were -- Strike that. While the police officer was present at Rockingham, you got in your car and left. Is that true?
A: Correct.
Q: Did you tell the police officer that you were leaving?
A: No.
Q: Did you leave because you wanted to avoid being arrested?
A: No.
Q: Did the police officer ever indicate to you that you were going to be arrested?
A: Absolutely not.
Q: Did he ever indicate to you that you were going to be questioned?
A: No.
Q: Did he ever indicate to you a desire to have you come down to the police department to provide further information relative to this incident?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask permission to leave?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask if the police officer had completed his investigation before you got in your vehicle and decided to drive away?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether they -- any police cars followed you after you left?
A: I doubt it, but I don't know.
Q: As you left the Rockingham residence, did you drive normal speeds?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you driving in an effort to try to evade anyone that was trying to follow you?
A: No.
Q: Where did you go from there?
A: To a friend's house.
Q: Who is the friend?
A: Alan Schwartz.
Q: Now, fast forwarding a bit to the '93 incident with Mr. Zlomsowitzh--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's too late.
MR.BREWER: Huh?
MR.ROBERT BAKER: It's too late to fast forward to anything.
BY MR.BREWER:
Q: On the '93 incident, you indicated that you were-- you went over to Nicole 's unannounced. Is that true?
A: What?
Q: 93 October 25th. 1993.
A: No, that's wrong.
Q: I'm sorry. Backing up. With the Keith Zlomsowitzh-- I am talking about the 911 call. Earlier when you went over to Nicole's where Keith Zlomsowitzh was present you went over there unannounced. Is that true?
A: No.
Q: Did you call and let her know you were coming?
A: You're totally confused. I don't ever recall Keith Zlomsowitzh being anywhere near Nicole's house in 1993.
MR. PETROCELLI: He is talking about May of '92.
MR. BREWER: No, I changed that. I said I was incorrect.
MR. PETROCELLI: May of '92, Gretna Green.
THE WITNESS: Pardon me?
MR. PETROCELLI: He is talking May of '92 Gretna Green.
THE WITNESS: Okay. So what's the question?
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: You went over to her house unannounced?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And when you got there, can you describe the pathway up to her front door?
A: It's a pathway. You walk up the driveway, you turn right a little bit and you turn left and walk to her front door.
Q: Okay. And the -- can you describe where the front window is in relationship to that pathway?
A: Front window's around the front that faces the street.
Q: To enter the front of the house, would you ordinarily enter the pathway that you just described?
A: Yes.
Q: And you'd ring the bell or knock on the door?
A: Yes, or go around back.
Q: Okay. And if you entered in the front as you just described, would you be able from the pathway to look into the front window inside her house?
A: You could, but you couldn't see much looking in the front window.
Q: Would you have to make some affirmative effort to go around and look inside the window to see inside the house?
A: To see the whole room, I would think so.
Q: Did you have to do that in order to see her and Mr. Zlomsowitzh that evening?
A: No.
Q: How were you able to see them?
A: I walked by this window which is in the front of her house, but it's not one of her front windows. It walks right along the path as you approach the front door. It's about six feet from the front door, and you can see right into the living room.
Q: So you were walking on the pathway or towards the pathway to enter in the front door?
A: I was on the pathway approaching the front door, and I saw her head, and I looked and saw she was obviously engaged.
Q: And you were able to see that without making any affirmative effort to look inside the window?
A: True. Yes.
Q: Just normally walking towards the front door as if to ring the bell or knock on the door?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you ever take a different position to get a better look at what she was doing?
A: Once I saw her head, I stepped towards and saw that she was obviously engaged, and then I left.
Q: When you say stepped--
A: It wasn't something I wanted to look at.
Q: When you say "stepped towards," you made a movement towards the window?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have to step off the path?
A: No.
Q: Did you step to the edge of the path?
A: No. No, this is all along the path.
Q: Okay. Did you step towards the window to get a better look inside?
A: Yeah. To see what was going on.
Q: And when you saw her head, what was it about her head that caused you to move more towards the window to get a better look inside?
A: Nothing. I just saw her, and I looked and then saw that she was
engaged.
Q: Well, when you first saw her head, could you tell what she was
doing?
A: No.
Q: Okay. So you just saw she was home inside the--
A: Yeah, it was like -- it was a spontaneous thing. It wasn't like you're not talking about a lot of time here. You know, it's like if you're walking, sometimes I would have -- if she was just sitting there, I would have hit the glass and she would have -- I wouldn't have had to -- I didn't want to ring the door bell. l didn't want to wake anybody. So if she was just sitting there, I would have hit the glass, and she would have come and opened the door, but when I looked and I saw she wasn't just sitting there, I left.
Q: And you just looked in there for a matter of seconds?
A: Yes.
Q: The--your relationship with Mr. Kardashian, he has been a friend of yours for a number of years. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And you indicated that a number of years ago you had actually utilized his legal services. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was how long ago, approximately?
A: I don't know. Years. Years previous to this.
Q: Okay. And as of June 1994, was he one of your best friends?
A: He wasn't a guy I saw often, but if I had to list best friends, I would have listed him in my list of best friends, yes.
Q: He's someone that you saw socially?
A: Yeah, from time to time. Like I may have seen him twice in the
previous year.
Q: Okay. Did you have any business relationships with him?
A: In our life together, yes.
Q: In the last five years before Nicole's death, did you have any business relationship with Mr. Kardashian?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: After June 994 at some point did you consult with Mr. Kardashian in a professional capacity?
A: Almost immediately.
Q: Okay. And when you say "Almost immediately," when was the first time you ever contacted Mr. Kardashian with a view towards either asking him something or telling him something that you l considered to be within the context of an attorney-client relationship?
A: I didn't have to contact him. He came. He came to the house. And I know --I don't want to discuss what I talked about with him on the 13th, but I kinda relied on him a little bit from that point on.
Q: Okay. The first time you talked with him as on the 13th?
A: No. I talked to him, I'm sure, on the 12th that night, but I wasn't in much of a mood to have conversations. I mean--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: The 12th?
THE WITNESS: The 12th-- I mean the 13th. It wasn't really like--I know we had made arrangements to go to his house--we may have made arrangements. We may have done it the next morning. I'm not totally sure. But I think I was just a person who was reacting to things on the 13th, and then on the 14th I know specifically -- you know, I sorta asked for his help, and he was there for me.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: When you say on the 14th you know specifically you sort of asked for his help--
A: Yeah.
Q: --are you referencing some discussion you had with Mr. Kardashian that was within the context of an attorney-client communication?
A: As I know it to be now, yes.
Q: Well, how about at that point? Not now, but on the 14th when you talked to Mr. Kardashian, were you talking to him with a view towards either -- telling him something that you considered to be confidential?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, that's a legal conclusion. Don't answer that.
MR. BREWER: His state of mind is relevant.
Q: Were you consulting Mr. Kardashian on the 14th as a lawyer?
A: I knew he was a lawyer, and I wanted his view on a few things--
Q: Okay.
A: -- and he was there for me.
Q: All right. And that was the context of that discussion on the 14th.
A: Yes.
Q: Your knowledge that he was a lawyer and your desire to have some of his information or knowledge.
A: Yeah, to have him help me with you know, determining some things.
Q: Okay. Now, on the 13th did you see Mr. Kardashian at your house?
A: I believe so, but I really don't remember, but I believe so.
Q: Okay. And did you have any conversations with him at all while he was at your house on the 13th?
A: If he was there, I would have, but I just l don't recall.
Q: Okay. And on the 13th do you recall, for example, having any discussions with Mr. Kardashian about luggage?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall having any discussion with Mr. Kardashian on the 13th with respect to your whereabouts on June 12, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall having any discussions with Mr. Kardashian on the 13th concerning your possible involvement in the deaths of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Did you know whether Mr. Kardashian was a licensed lawyer in the State of California at the time that you spoke with him on the 14th in connection with seeking legal advice?
A: I assumed he was.
Q: On the 13th when you spoke with Mr. Kardashian, did you have any discussions whatsoever that relate to the facts and circumstances of Nicole's death?
A: As I told you, I don't recall if I spoke to him on the 13th.
Q: You have no recollection at all as you sit here today of speaking with Mr. Kardashian one way or the other--
A: One way or the other.
Q: --on the 13th?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall at some point terminating the attorney-client relationship you had with Mr. Kardashian--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No, don't answer that.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: -- in connection with this case? Well, do you still consult with Mr. Kardashian in connection with this case?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Well, Have you communicated with Mr. Kardashian in connection with this case in the last two weeks --
MR.ROBERT BAKER: Do not answer that.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: -- as an attorney, seeking information from him as an attorney?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Have you sought the legal services of Mr. Kardashian with respect to any other matter other than this case since June 12, 1994?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: "This case" being which case? The civil case? The criminal case? The facts surrounding--
MR. BREWER: Well, you won't let me ask about any of it, so just--the whole case, meaning--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay.
BY MR. BREWER: --both cases that relate to the death of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson. Other than any work that he did in connection with this case for you and any conversations or communications you had in connection with this case, have you had any other opportunities wherein you have retained him since June 12, 1994?
A: I don't understand the question. I don't understand the question.
Q: Okay. I want to set aside any legal relationship you had with Mr. Kardashian arising out of the murders of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson, and my question is: Since June 12, 1994, have you retained Mr. Kardashian in connection with any other matters?
A: Retained. I have not paid him a retainer. I have relied on him on some issues that stem from this case and -- yes.
Q: I want to exclude those. Okay?
A: Other issues that--
Q: Exactly. And I want to exclude all issues that relate to this case.
A: My whole life has been issues relating to this case since this--since it's been over, and there's been numerous things, and some of the things that Bob has been an adviser on.
Q: And those items are related to this case?
A: They're ancillary things to this case .
Q: Is there anything that you would --
A: Not to any criminal or civil prosecution. They're things -- other things.
Q: Okay. Is there anything that you would consider to be separate and distinct from this case or ancillary issues related to this case wherein you have retained the services of Mr. Kardashian or spoke with him in an effort to obtain legal advice?
A: Outside of this case?
Q: Yes.
A: My life has been this case, so I haven't talked to virtually anybody about any other thing, so the answer would be -- I don't know what the answer would be because I don't know what the question was again.
Q: Other than this case or ancillary issues related to this case, have you had any discussions with Mr. Kardashian seeking his legal counsel concerning any other matters?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You indicated in earlier examination that you had discussed or denied your involvement in the murders with Mr. Cowlings. Do you recall that?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Say again?
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: You had testified in earlier examination that in a discussion with Mr. Cowlings, you had denied any involvement in these murders. Do you recall that?
A: I don't recall discussing that here.
Q: Have you ever had a discussion with Mr. Cowlings concerning whether you were involved in any way in the murders of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. You had discussions with Rosey Greer while you were in jail. Is that correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And when was the first time that you ever spoke with him?
A: What do you mean? In my life?
Q: No. After these murders.
A: It was in jail.
Q: Do you remember the date?
A: No.
Q: Prior to June 12, 1994 did you ever attend any services where Mr. Greer, Reverend Greer, was a minister or pastor?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a church that you regularly attended?
A: Regularly?
Q: Sure.
A: Semi-occasionally, yes.
Q: Okay. And where was that?
A: St. Martin's in Brentwood.
Q: And as part of your religious beliefs, does that include periodic confessions?
A: I'm not Catholic. No.
Q: Okay. What religious affiliation would you assign to yourself, if any?
A: Baptist.
Q: And as part of being a Baptist, does that include any process where you go through a confessional?
A: No.
Q: You don't give confession as part of the ordinary religious services, then?
A: That's correct.
Q: Do you know what religious affiliation Reverend Greer is?
A: I think he's almost non-denomination. I think he's a guy who preaches the message to just about anyone that -- I can't say anyone that would listen. I know he speaks a lot. He travels a lot and speaks a lot.
Q: As you sit here today, do you have any understanding with respect to whether he has any affiliation with a recognized religion?
A: I think his affiliation--I believe he has some credentials. I've never asked him about those, but I think in court that came out. I believe his affiliation is with the Lord through Jesus Christ, and that's what he preaches.
Q: Okay. Is that the name of the religion, or is that just how he interacts with people that he sees, that he is somebody who is talking to them through the Lord Jesus Christ?
A: Well, I think anyone who has any religion in their life knows that the Lord Jesus Christ is Christianity, so I think that would be the name of the religion.
Q: Do you know whether Reverend Greer as part of his religious affiliation has as part of it confessions?
A: No.
Q: And in fact the only recognized -- in fact, you don't know of a recognized religion that he is affiliated with. Is that a fair statement, as you sit here?
A: No. I just told you he's affiliated with Christianity, Christian. The Lord Jesus Christ is what he's affiliated with.
Q: Okay. What I mean is Baptist, Episcopalian, Catholicism, some--
A: Christianity is what it is. And I believe even though I was raised Baptist, that's the way I see it also.
Q: When did you first learn of Reverend Greer's religious affiliation? Is it before or after he came to your jail?
A: Before.
Q: And in the course of talking with Reverend Greer, did you give him -- did he have a confession for you?
A: No. The only thing we talked about was our belief in the Lord Jesus Christ. There was nothing to confess except my belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Q: Okay. And what I mean by confess. I'm not necessarily--about confessing to committing murders, but having a confession where you absolve yourself of sins as a part of this experience with Reverend Greer.
A: That's not his religion, or mine for that matter.
Q: When you would meet with Reverend Greer, would you always do so
in the same place?
A: No.
Q: Would you meet in your jail cell?
A: No.
Q: Where would you meet?
A: In the various attorney rooms.
Q: Would there always be a guard present?
A: I mean not that I could see, but I know there's one in the vicinity, yes.
Q: So during any -- Strike that -- At all times when you were meeting with Reverend Greer you had knowledge that there would be a deputy in close proximity to where you were meeting?
A: Yes.
Q: And were there any walls or doors to your knowledge that separated the location of this guard that you knew about from you and Reverend Greer?
A: A wall, yes. Glass wall.
Q: During any of these occasions where you spoke with Reverend Greer while you were in jail, did you ever actually see the guard standing there as you were having a discussion?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that the exception rather than the rule?
A: Standing would have been the exception, but see the guard, standing and/or sitting, would have been the rule.
Q: Okay. So generally speaking, you would have some visual contact with the guard as you were communicating with Reverend Greer?
A: Yes. It was difficult, but you could see him.
Q: And after you had completed your discussions with Reverend Greer, would you then tell the guard that you were done?
A: He would.
Q: Reverend Greer?
A: Yes.
Q: How would he do that?
A: Knock on the glass.
Q: And then what would he say?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you believe that when you were communicating with Reverend Greer, that your communications were private?
A: I probably didn't give it any thought.
Q: Did it matter to you whether they were private or not?
A: Me personally?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: So the fact that a guard was sitting there and possibly could hear your communications didn't matter to you?
A: To me it didn't, no.
Q: And was that because you didn't consider the communications to be confidential?
A: I don't know what I considered them to be. I just never thought of thinking, here, I could hear them; I could hear them in the hall. I assumed they could hear me.
Q: So when you say, "I could hear them," you're talking about the guards or deputies?
A: Yes.
Q: You could hear them talking?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you assumed that given the fact that you could hear them, that they could hear you as you were talking with Reverend Greer?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And--
A: And I assume that we were being bugged, so I assumed that also, but that was an assumption.
Q: So is that true? You assumed that you were being bugged?
A: At all times, yes.
Q: Okay. And so then I take it that at all times while you were having discussions with Reverend Greer, you didn't assume that any of those discussions were confidential.
A: I assumed that they were bugging us.
MR. BREWER: You want to change the tape? We will go off the record here.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 2 of Volume VIII. The time is approximately 3:36, and we are off the record.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record, and the time is approximately 3:53. This is the beginning of tape No. 3 of Volume VIII.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Mr. Simpson, on June 17 while you were inside your Bronco, did you ever speak with your mother by cellular phone?
A: I think I tried to, but I'm not sure.
Q: As you sit here today, do you have a recollection of talking with her?
A: No.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Where is the crescendo? We've got to ask him the Rosey question. Come on. Come on, you can't waste 30 minutes on that.
MR. PETROCELLI: They were giving you the bait. Swallow it.
MR. KELLY: Whole.
MR. PETROCELLI: I like my Mercury Morris line of questions. That went real far, didn't it.
MR. KELLY: No. No. That was Sugar Ray Robinson.
MR. PETROCELLI: Sugar Ray Robinson.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: The same trip where you were in the Bronco heading to Nicole's grave, you indicated there was a police car blocking the entrance. Do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: Was it a police car or some other -- some type of security service that was blocking the entrance?
A: I don't know.
A: Do you know the police department--
A: No.
Q: --if there was one?
A: No.
Q: Did you speak with your children from your Chicago hotel room on June 13th?
A: No.
Q: Positive about that?
A: Arnelle. Arnelle.
Q: Okay. Sydney and Justin?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Okay. When you say you "don't believe so" do you have some recollection that you may have?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You're fairly certain you did not speak with Sydney and Justin from your Chicago hotel room on the 12th?
A: Pretty certain, yes.
Q: And did you call on the way back from Chicago someone by the name of Jonah Wilson?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you speak with Jonah Wilson?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What was your purpose in calling Jonah Wilson?
A: I was looking for my daughter.
Q: Do you recall speaking with Arnelle at Jonah Wilson's house?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You have no recollection of talking with Jonah Wilson on the way back from Chicago as you sit here today. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And you have no recollection of talking with Arnelle at Jonah Wilson's house as you sit here today. Is that true?
A: You mean coming back from Chicago?
Q: Yes, on the airplane.
A: No, I don't have a recollection of that, no. I may have, but I don't have a recollection.
Q: Does Christian Reichardt presently live with you?
A: No.
Q: Has he stayed at our house on occasion the last couple months?
A: No
Q: He's been there. Is that true?
A: Yes
MR. PETROCELLI: Taking golf lessons.
BY MR. BREWER:
Q: Swinging golf clubs in the front yard with you?
A: He did one day, yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI: l know. I saw it on TV.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Better than Sid Rosen.
MR. BREWER: That's all I have.
MR. KELLY: Go off the record?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 3:57.
(Discussion held off the record.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, the time is approximately 3:59.
This concludes the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume VIII. The number of videotapes used was three. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 3:59.
(ENDING TIME: 3:59 P.M.)