SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS LOS ANGELES
SHARON RUFO, Plaintiff,
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON et al. Defendants
FREDRIC GOLDMAN, et al. Plaintiffs,
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al. Defendants
LOUIS H. BROWN, etc., Plaintiffs
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON Defendant
VOLUME VI Continued videotaped deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard, 10th Floor, Los Angeles, California commencing at 9:51 am, on Thursday, February 22nd, 1996, before David S. Coleman, CSR #4613 pursuant to Court Order.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Here begins videotape No. 1 in the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume VI, in the consolidated cases Of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs. Orenthal James Simpson in the Superior Court, State Of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is SC 031947.
Today's date is Thursday, February 22nd, 1996. the time is approximately 9:51. This deposition is being taken at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California and was made at the request of plaintiff of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp. The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed by Coleman, Haas Martin & Schwab of Los Angeles California.
Would counsel please identify yourselves and state whom you represent.
MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for Plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly for Plaintiff Brown.
MR. BREWER: Michael Brewer for Plaintiff Sharon Rufo.
MR. OLSEN: Christopher Olsen for Plaintiff Sharon Rufo.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Phil Baker for O.J. Simpson.
MR. LEONARD: Daniel Leonard for O.J. Simpson.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Bob Baker for O.J. Simpson.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Good morning, Mr. Simpson.
A: Good morning,
MR. Petrocelli.
Q: I see you got my name right today. Have you done any preparation for this deposition session?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you spoken to anybody in preparing for today's deposition?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI: On what grounds?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Attorney-client privilege.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, he may have done non-privileged things.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Then you can ask him about non-privileged things, but you are not going to ask him that broad question.
MR. PETROCELLI: You are instructing him on those questions?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You bet.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you spoken to anyone other than
lawyers?
A: No.
Q: Have you read--Pages 1544
A: About this--
Q: Yeah.
A: --deposition?
No.
Q: To get ready for today's--
A: Huh?
Q: To get ready for today's session.
A: No.
Q: Have you read anything?
A: No.
Q: Have you read your prior deposition
transcript?
A: No.
Q: When did you first meet Nicole?
A: Summer of 1977.
Q: Where did you meet her?
A: At a place called the Daisy.
Q: In Beverly Hills?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was she doing there?
A: She was--I think she was a hostess.
Q: Were you there alone?
A: No.
Q: Who were you with?
A: Joe Stellini.
Q: Just the two of you?
A: Well, we went in just the two of us, Yes.
Q: And did you start up a relationship with
Nicole at that time?
A: A few days later.
Q: You called her?
A: No.
Q: How did you get in touch with her?
A: I was having lunch at the Daisy and she
came in.
Q: Now, Nicole was how old at the time?
A: 18.
Q: And you were how old.?
A: I believe 28, 29 maybe.
Q: 29?
A: Yeah.
Q: Were you married?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you separated?
A: We had just finished a separation, so we
were trying to see if we would get back together.
Q: You and Marquerite?
A: Yes.
Q: That's your first wife?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you marry Marquerite?
A: 1967.
Q: And when did you end your marriage with
her?
A: Officially? It was probably 19--I
don't know. Late '70s.
Q: After you met Nicole?
A: Uh-huh. Yes.
Q: During the time--Strike that.
When you met up with Nicole in the summer
of 1977 after the first couple times seeing her, did
you begin dating her?
A: Yeah.
Q: In other words, did you start a romantic
relationship with her?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And at that time you were married to
Marquerite. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And living with Marquerite. Right?
A: When I was in L.A., yeah.
Q: You were a professional football player
at the time--
A: Yes.
Q: --and you were traveling?
A: Well, I lived in New York, and she didn't
move to New York with me. I lived in Buffalo during
the season.
Q: During the football season. Right?
A: And Marquerite didn't move to New York
with me.
Q: And during the off-season you came back
to the home of Marquerite and you in Los Angeles?
A: At the end of that year for a while, yes.
Q: End of 77?
A: Yes, for a while.
Q: At what point did you permanently move
out of your home with Marquerite?
A: Sometime after I got back from football
in '78.
Q: --'8?
A: Yes.
Q: So where did you move--where did you
live in Los Angeles when you came back after the 1978
football season?
A: After I left, I can't recall if we were
on Mulholland Drive or where at that time. I lived
for a while in the Westwood Marquis.
Q: Alone there?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you moved where?
A: I lived between there and an apartment on
Wilshire Boulevard, and then I went back to Buffalo--
oh, I went to San Francisco, and...
Q: Where does Mulholland fit in here? Is
that the home with Marquerite?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, during this first couple of
years that you knew Nicole, let's say up to your
divorce from Marquerite, what you said was late '70s,
did you live with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: When did you first live with Nicole?
A: I think when I came back from probably
right at '80. Right at '80, after the '79 season.
Q: So January of '80?
A: I would say, yeah.
Q: And--
A: That's an estimate.
Q: Where did you and Nicole move to?
A: I think I rented a place at the--well,
I rented a place on--at the end of Stone Canyon. At
the end of Stone Canyon.
Q: And that was the first home of Nicole and
you?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: Before you moved into Stone Canyon for
the first three years that you and Nicole knew each
other, how regularly did you see one another?
A: Quite regular.
Q: Did you--was she your principal mate,
so to speak?
A: After the first year, yes. After we had
known each other a year, I would say yes.
Q: Okay. And where did Nicole live during
those three years from '77 to January of '80?
A: She had a place in Westwood right off of
Wilshire and Veteran. And then she had a place on
Bedford.
Q: Did you furnish those places for her?
A: Yes.
Q: Both of them?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And was she working?
A: Sometimes.
Q: When you were playing football did she
travel with you?
A: No.
Q: So she was at home in Los Angeles.
A: She visited me in Buffalo and then spent
a lot of time in San Francisco with me.
Q: When was the first season you were in
San Francisco?
A: '78.
Q: Okay. So starting September of '78.
Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And how many seasons were you in
San Francisco?
A: Two.
Q: '78 to '79; '79 to '80. Right?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You had an apartment in San Francisco
during those two years?
A: A condominim, yes.
Q: That you purchased?
A: Yes.
Q: And Nicole lived there with you?
A: When she was in San Francisco, yes.
Q: So during the years '78-79, '79-80,
Nicole was shuttling between the places you provided
for her in Los Angeles and the condo in San
Francisco. Is that right?
A: The place that I helped her with in
Los Angeles and the place in San Francisco, yes.
Q: You say "helped her." You mean she-
A: I gave her money when she couldn't pay
the rent, and sometimes she could pay the rent.
Q: What was she doing for a living?
A: She was working at the Daisy.
Q: For a couple of years?
A: A year.
Q: And then after that what?
A: She decorated. She started decorating
for me. She decorated my place, and then just
decorated.
Q: She earned income from decorating?
A: From decorating, and she--I went to
Vegas a few times and made a lot of money, and she
made a lot of money also.
Q: You mean gambling?
A: Yes.
Q: Excuse me. When is the last time that
she worked for a living?
A: I would say late '80s.
Q: And did she work from the '70s through
the late '80s?
A: Depending if she had a decorating job.
Q: So whenever she worked, it was in the
decorating business?
A: Yes.
Q: And she would do interior decorating of
homes?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. What's the home that you purchased
that she decorated it that you just mentioned a few
momeents ago? Stone Canyon?
A: No. Brentwood.
Q: Oh, Rockingham?
A: Rockingham.
Q: Did you move from Stone Canyon to
Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.How many years did you live in
Stone Canyon?
A: I think just one off-season or one
spring.
Q: That was a rental, you said?
A: Yes.
Q: And when did you move into Rockingham?
A: I don't know.
Q: When did you purchase it?
A: I purchased it in '77, but it had to go
through a lot of renovations and changes before we
moved into it.
Q: Was it vacant for two or three years?
A: Maybe a year.
Q: Did someone live in it before you?
A: Yes.
Q: You rented it out?
A: No
Q: Who lived there?
A: A family called the Eastons.
Q: Why were they living there?
A: Because they owned it.
Q: You said you purchased it in '77.
A: From the Eastons.
Q: And they continued to live there?
A: No.
Q: No. After--they moved out when you
purchased it in '77. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you didn't move in until sometime in
1980--or '81, actually.
A: Yes.
Q: So for those four years who was living at
Rockingham.?
A: I don't think it was four years, because
I didn't purchase it until late '77. then I did a
major renovation, which took the better part of a
year, and then Marquerite and Jason and Arnelle moved
in.
Q: I see.
A: And then our divorce was final, and I
moved back in.
Q: Well, was Rockingham a home that you
purchased when you were still married to and living
with Marquerite?
A: Before I met Nicole, yes.
Q: I see. So when you met Nicole, you and
Marquerite and children were living at Rockingham.
A: No.
Q: But moved into Rockingham while you met
Nicole--while you were dating Nicole. Right?
A: Yes, when I was seeing Nicole, yes.
Q: Okay. And when did Marquerite move out
of Rockingham?
A: Whenever our divorce was final, and I
don't recall when that was.
Q: And then after she moved out, you moved
in with Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: And generally speaking, what was the time
frame of that?
A: '80.
Q: Sometime after January '80?
A: Yeah, I guess, yes. Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, from January '80 until when
did Nicole live with you at Rockingham.?
A: Her primary residence was that until we
divorced--I mean until we separated.
Q: Okay. And you--Nicole filed for
divorce in January of 1992. Correct?
A: January or February. Late January or
early February.
Q: Okay. And when did she move out?
A: Late January.
Q: When she filed?
A: Well, we were separating, and I told her
that if she didn't file, I would. So after three
weeks of just being separated she found a place, and
around that same time she filed.
Q: During the time period when Nicole first
moved in with you at Rockingham until she moved out in
January-February of 1992, were you ever separated for
marital reasons?
A: I'm sorry. Say that again.
Q: Were the two of you ever separated during
that time frame because of marital problems?
A: Between what?
Q: When the first time she moved in
Rockingham in January of '80 and when she left in
early 1992.
A: Separated?
Q: Yeah.
A: You got to be more definitive, because I
can't help you.
Q: In other words, did you move out or did
she move out for any period of time because of
difficulties in your marriage?
A: Move out? We weren't married for the
first four or five years we were at Rockingham so it
wouldn't have been a marital thing. For a day or a
week, yes, she moved out from time to time, a day or a
week maybe.
Q: What's the longest she moved out?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What's the longest you moved out
A: I never moved out.
Q: When did you get married?
A: '85.
Q: On what day?
A: February 2nd.
Q: February 2, 1985?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: And when was Sydney born?
A: In '85.
Q: What's her birthday?
A: October 17th.
Q: And Justin?
A: I believe it was '7---I mean '87.
Q: 1987?
A: Yes. I'm trying to think if it was '88.
Maybe in '88.
Q: '88?
A: Well, I'm just trying to think. He's two
years younger, but it's August 6th.
Q: '88?
A: I believe it's '88, yes.
Q: Did Nicole move out--you said she moved
out from time to time. Did she do so between the time
she first moved in in early 1980 and the date of your
marriage in February of '85?
A: Yes.
Q: About how many times?
A: I don't know.
Q: Can you estimate for us?
A: No, I can't.
Q: Why did she move out from time to time?
A: We had disagreements.
Q: About what;
A: Various things. I don't know. At one
point I didn't want to get married.
Q: From the time that you got married in
February of 1985 until January-February of 1992, did
Nicole move out from time to time?
A: Give me that again.
Q: From the time that you and Nicole got
married in February of 1985 until the time that she
moved out permanently when she filed for divorce,
during that interval of time, seven years
approximately, did she move out of Rockingham from
time to time?
A: Move out?
Q: Yeah, like for a week or-
A: Well, not move out, no. We had another
place, so if we were not getting along, she sometimes
would go to our other place.
Q: What is that other place?
A: It was in Laguna.
Q: When was Laguna purchased?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Roughly.
A: Mid--early, mid '80s. I believe before
I was married.
Q: Before your marriage to Nicole?
A: I believe so, yes. I'm not a hundred
percent sure of that, but I believe before I was
married.
Q: And when did you purchase the place in
New York?
A: '8---well,'90. I believe it was '90.
Q: Did Nicole ever move into the New York
place?
A: Yes.
Q: Did she ever move in there because of a
break in your relationship?
A: No.
Q: just to join you while you were in
New York?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Nicole ever move into the Laguna
place because of a break in your relationship?
A: No.
Q: You said she went down there to stay from
time to time when--
A: Yeah.
Q: --you had problems?
A: Well, when we had problems and quite
often when we didn't have problems. We lived in
Laguna during the summers most times.
Q: Okay. During your relationship with
Nicole from, let's say, January '80 to 1992, did you
have any other residences besides New York, Laguna and
Rockingham?
A: She did. I mean she owned property, but
no.
Q: Where did she own?
A: San Francisco.
Q: Is that something you had purchased when
you were living in San Francisco?
A: Yes.
Q: And as part of the prenuptial agreement,
you gave her that property?
A: Essentially. yes.
Q: Is something incorrect about what I said?
A: No. I say essentially that's what it
was, yes.
Q: What do you mean by "essentially"?
A: I just wanted her to have some income,
and I gave her that so that she could have some income
to--
Q: You owned it in your name-
A: Yeah.
Q: --and you transferred it to her?
A: Yes.
Q: Did she assume the mortgage?
A: There was no mortgage for her.
Q: Was it paid off already?
A: Essentially, yes.
Q: You took care of it?
A: No. I--part of it was in my trust at
the time. I guess there was a loan on it in my trust,
and most of it was paid off, but to her it was free
and clear.
Q: So You transferred that property to her
roughly 1985?
A: Yes.
Q: And from that point on did she rent that
property out?
A: Yes.
Q: And did she ever use it as a residence?
A: No.
Q: And did you?
A: No.
Q: Now, did Nicole own any other property
besides San Francisco?
A: I believe So. I believe she--well, I
knew she had something in Laguna, but I--you know,
Nicole's business was her business.
Q: The place in Laguna, is that something
you bought for her?
A: No.
Q: She bought it on her own?
A: Yes.
Q: And did she buy it during your marriage
A: Yes.
Q: Is that a place where you and she ever
stayed?
A: No.
Q: She rented that out?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. So she had two rental units,
right, Laguna and San Francisco, during a good part of
your marriage?
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't even look like Ed.
MR. PETROCELLI: Got a little more hair.
MR. KELLY: It would take me a long time.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, did you--you and Nicole, you said, had a number of disagreements and she would move out from time to time or go stay in Laguna. Did--And you said one of the causes of these disagreements was your desire not to get married.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, he didn't talk about a "number of disagreements."
THE WITNESS: I don't think I said she moved out either. I don't think I said she moved out. She went--moved out is taking all your clothes and everything. I don't recall her doing that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, did she ever move out in that sense
during the entire time that you were
A: I don't recall that.
Q: --living at Rockingham together?
A: I don't recall that ever happening.
Q: Where she took all her belongings and
said, "Look, I'm gone. I'm moved out." Except for the
the last time, of course.
A: Maybe once.
Q: When was that?
A: The day before we got engaged.
Q: Is that because you wouldn't get engaged?
A: Partially, yes.
Q: And you solved that problem by
A: Getting
Q: --agreeing to marry her?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did she physically move out?
A: She just took some things.
Q: And how long was she gone?
A: That night.
Q: One night.
A: Yes.
Q: What other reasons did you have conflicts
and disagreements with her such that she would go stay
someplace else for a while?
A: One time she found some phone numbers of
girls, and other than that I can't specifically tell
you.
Q: You can only remember one occasion where
she went to stay someplace else because she was upset
that you were seeing other women?
A: No, that's not what I said.
Q: You said she saw phone numbers of girls.
I take it that means that she thought you were
cheating on her.
A: I don't know about what she thought, but
there were phone numbers, and she moved. Not moved.
Left for a day or two or few days.
Q: You and she had an argument about this?
A: I'm sure we had, yes.
Q: And what year was that?
A: I don't know.
Q Mid '80s?
A: In the '80s, yes.
Q: After marriage?
A: I don't know.
Q: During one of her pregnancies?
A: She never moved out when she was
pregnant, no.
Q: Who were the girls whose phone numbers--
A: I have no idea.
Q: --caused this disagreement?
A: I have absolutely no idea.
Q: Can you recall anything about your
disagreement with her on this subject?
A: No.
Q: Did you argue frequently about infidelity
on your part?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever argue about that?
A: Yes.
Q: On how many occasions?
A: I don't know.
Q: More than a dozen?
A: No.
Q: More than five?
A: I don't know.
Q: Was it the most constant--was it the
most frequent topic of conflict between the two of you
during your 12-year relationship at Rockingham?
A: I'd say no.
Q: What was?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you have any topic of--common topic
of conflict or disagreement between the two of you?
A: My traveling.
Q: How many times did you fight over your seeing other women or her thinking you were seeing other women?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, when you say, "fight," have verbal disagreements? Is that what you mean by a fight?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
Q: Well, you already said you never physically hit her. Right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He said he physically had an encounter with her on January 1st, 1989-You've gone into that in great detail.
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
Q: Well, you never hit her. Right?
A: No, I never punched her or anything like
that, no.
Q: By the way, you never kicked her either.
Is that right?
A: That's correct.
Q: My question was: How many times did you fight over your seeing other women or her thinking you were seeing other women? I'm not limiting it to
MR. ROBERT BAKER: And again, that's verbal disagreements?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: I couldn't say.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: There was the one occasion in 1989 having
to do with Katherine. Correct?
A: No. that's absolutely wrong.
Q: Why is that wrong?
A: Katherine was Marcus' girl. We didn't
fight over that.
Q: But you and she were that evening--the fight that evening began a discussion about Katherine, did it not?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You mean--are you talking January 1st, 1989 again?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay.
THE WITNESS: What do you mean? You have to be a little more clear.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Let me ask you this, yes: In January of
'89 when you had the incident with her, did that have
anything to do with her belief that you were being
unfaithful?
A: I don't know what her belief was. She
had a conversation with Katherine Allen. You should
call Katherine Allen. She was wrong. She ended up
talking to Katherine Allen and realizing she was
wrong. So you would have to talk to Katherine Allen
about that.
Q: We will, and Marcus Allen as well, once
we can get them served. They apparently don't want to
be served.
A: I don't blame them.
Q: Anyway, what was Nicole's concern
expressed to you about Katherine and/or Marcus Allen?
A: She had a conversation with Katherine.
She misinterpreted something that Katherine told her.
Q: What did Katherine tell her?
A: Something about earrings.
Q: What about earrings?
A: Katherine was talking about the earrings
Marcus had bought her, and while Nicole was, from what
I gather, you know, gushing over how nice those
earrings were that Katherine was--Marcus had bought
Katherine, Katherine said something, "Well, look at
you. Look what you got," and Nicole misinterpreted
that as that--I don't know. You have to ask--you
know, Nicole never was clear about it to me, so you'd
have to talk to--Nicole ended up talking to
Katherine Allen, and they got it straightened out.
Q: Well, what I don't understand about that
is: What caused Nicole to get upset with you about
Katherine's comment to her, 'Look what you got"?
A: I'm assuming that Nicole felt that what
Katherine was saying that I bought some earrings, but
what Katherine was referring to was I guess Nicole
wasn't aware that she was dripping in diamond earrings
that night, and that's what Katherine was referring
to.
Q: That you had bought earrings for whom?
A: I don't know. You have to talk to
Katherine about that. I never got that clear from
Nicole.
Q: Did Nicole accuse you of buying earrings
for another woman?
A: She said something about, "What about the
earrings that Katherine was talking about?" and from
that point it turned into an argument.
Q: Did you know what she was talking about,
by the way?
A: Not at all. As a matter of fact, I tried
to get Katherine on the phone for Nicole to clear it
up, to find out what was going on, but Nicole wouldn't
talk to Katherine, and I guess the next day they did.
Q: Where did Katherine live? In Los
Angeles?
A: Yes.
Q: So you were going to call her at, what
A: Marcus' house, yes.
Q: 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 in the morning.?
A: Yes.
Q: What time was it;
A: Whatever. 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 in the
morning.
Q: To straighten this out?
A: No. For Nicole to--Hey, you know,
Nicole couldn't tell me what she was talking about.
so--and she had mentioned Katherine's name, so I
said, 'Hey, well, get Katherine on the phone and let's
straighten it out. "But typically she didn't want to
straighten it out. She wanted to argue.
Q: During the course of your relationship
with Nicole, would you say you argued quite a bit?
A: No.
Q: Frequently?
A: No.
Q: On a regular basis?
A: No.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It was scheduled at 10:00 o'clock every Monday.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Once a month?
A: We probably had--Well, when you said
"argument"
Q: Yeah.
A: --I don't know what "argument"--
Q: Would you fight and argue a lot?
A: No.
Q: Would you say that your relationship was
a stormy one?
A: No.
Q: Would you say that it was a healthy
relationship?
A: I thought we had a great relationship.
Q: For the entire time that the two of you
were together?
A: I thought until '92 when we started to
split, we had our ups and downs like every
relationship, but I think--we had a tremendous
relationship, a relationship that everybody seemed to
want to share with us because they were always around.
Q: How do you know they wanted to share
that?
A: Because they were always around. That's
what I interpreted that to mean.
Q: But you were a celebrity. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So that's why they were around. Right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well. don't answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: But did they tell you. "O.J. and Nicole, we really envy your relationship. We"--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer this.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that what people told you?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
THE WITNESS: I've heard that before.
MR. PETROCELLI: He is making a statement. I am entitled to examine him about it,
MR. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You are not entitled to ask speculative questions and ask a witness to speculate as to what people
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Don't speculate. I agree with your
lawyer on that. We don't want any speculation.We
just want your recollection of what things--what
]were said.
A: Okay.
Q: Your perception, based on what people
said and how they behaved, is that they wanted to be
around Nicole and you because you two had a great
relationship. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you said you had your "ups and
downs.' What were the downs?
A: My scheduling. I traveled quite a bit,
Nicole and I were both bullheaded and quite often
didn't agree on the same things. I'm the type of guy
that when I get into something, I get a little manic
about it, golf being one. Golf became an issue with
the two of us.
Q: When?
A: Probably the late '80s into the '90s.
Q: What else became an issue between the two
of you besides golf and your traveling?
A: As I stated before, finding phone
numbers
Q: You said that happened on one occasion.
A: One occasion I recall.
Q: No other occasions.
A: There
Q: Right?
A: There were occasions she saw phone
numbers. I get--people give me numbers all the
time, so--I get cards and numbers from everybody.
So it's on an occasion that I recall specifically that
happening, but--yeah.
Q: Where did she find these phone numbers?
A: Whenever I get home, I empty my
pockets--off a road trip or something, I would empty
my pockets on my vanity, and at one point I guess she
went through my drawer and found the phone number
found phone numbers.
Q: And how many times during the entire time you lived with her at Rockingham were you unfaithful?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that. Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: How many extramarital relationships did you have?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that either.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, he said they had a great relationship. I am entitled to examine him about-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't agree with you, and he is not going to answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You don't want to answer that question?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that question either.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Were you unfaithful?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, isn't it true that you were having sexual relations in the same house that you were living with Nicole at the time that she was in that home?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Isn't that true?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: During one of her pregnancies?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI:
MR. Baker, I am entitled to probe his entire history of his relationship with Nicole.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I disagree with you, and he is not going to answer it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Didn't you and she have a confrontation
over your having sex with another woman in the
guesthouse at Rockingham?
A: Never.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't--Go ahead. You've answered it.
THE WITNESS: Never.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: That event never occurred?
A: Never. Never, ever.
Q: Had you ever heard that report--event reported in the news or the media?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. It's irrelevant, what you've heard. I've heard everything reported in the news media.
MR. PETROCELLI: You didn't think it was irrelevant, what
MR. Kaelin heard in the media.
Q: In any event
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Make your speeches outside in front of the microphones.
MR. PETROCELLI: We're saving them for you,
MR. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, you are going to save them a long time.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you ever have a relationship with another woman in the same at your Rockingham residence while Nicole was there?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you ever fight with Nicole over such
an incident?
A: Never.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't--Go ahead. You've answered it.
THE WITNESS: Never.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Never?
A: Never.
Q: Did you have a difficult time with
Nicole's pregnancies?
A: No.
Q: Did you become abusive towards her during
her pregnancies?
A: No.
Q: How many times was she pregnant?
A: By me?
Q: [Nods head.]
A: That I know of, four.
Q: And two of them were aborted?
A: Yes.
Q: Before your marriage?
A: No. One before; one after.
Q: When was the first one?
A: Early on in our relationship. I don't
know.
Q: You were still--married to Marquerite?
A: I may have been at that time separated
from Marquerite.
Q: When was the second one?
A: I believe '89 or '90.
Q: Did you know she had that abortion?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you agree with it?
A: No. We had an argument about it.
Q: Tell me about that argument.
A: I didn't want her to have an abortion.
She had said that after Sydney and Justin, that she
would never have an abortion again, yet she wanted an
abortion.
Q: Why;
A: I don't know.
Q: What did she tell you?
A: She just didn't want to go through being
pregnant. She didn't want to have any more kids. At
that time she didn't.
Q: Did she--did you say the abortion was
in 1989 or 1990?
A: Yes.
Q: Which year?
A: 0ne of the two, I don't recall exactly.
Q: Mr. Simpson, was this abortion after or
before the January 1, 1989 incident?
A: After.
Q: Okay. Do you know how long after that
incident she got pregnant?
A: No.
Q: By the way, was she pregnant at any other
time by someone else other than you?
You said
A: That I know of?
Q: Yeah, that you know of
A: Once.
Q: When was that?
A: I think in '9--'92.
Q: How did you find that out?
A: She told me.
Q: Is it during the time that the two of you
were separated?
A: Yes.
Q: And she was living at Gretna Green?
A: Yes.
Q: Excuse me. Did she tell you about it beforehand?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: 'Beforehand," what's that mean?
MR. PETROCELLI: Before the abortion.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did she seek your advice on what to do?
A: No.
Q: She just told you what she was going to
do?
A: She was emotional, and she just needed
someone to talk to.
Q: And you talked to her about it?
A: Yes.
Q: And did she tell you who the father was?
A: I didn't ask.
Q: Do you know?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any information as to who the
father is?
A: I can guess, but it would be a guess.
Q: Why would it be a guess?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He doesn't want you to guess.
THE WITNESS: Well. Why, because she was seeing evidently different people so
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Who was she seeing at that time?
A: At the time she talked to me, I assumed
she was seeing a guy named Joseph.
Q: Joseph Perulli?
A: I don't know his last name.
Q: This is the same Joseph who was at the
Jenners' Christmas party in December of 1993?
A: Correct. But then she told me a month
later that she hadn't been seeing this guy, she hadn't
been seeing Joseph since like June
Q: Of '92?
A: Yeah. So, you know, I never asked her
who the guy was. I assume it was this Brett guy, but
you don't want me to assume.
Q: Brett Shaves?
A: Yes.
Q: He worked for her divorce lawyers.
Right?
A: I've been told that, yes.
Q: Getting back to this previous abortion in
19--after the 1989 incident, did you and she
argue--Well, withdrawn.
Did she express to you her desire to have
an abortion because of physical abuse by her
A: No.
Q: --by you against her?
A: No.
Q: Or because she did not want to suffer any
mistreatment during pregnancy?
A: No.
Q: None of that was expressed to you?
A: None of it, no.
Q: Did she say anything to you along the
lines that you had given her a hard time during the
previous pregnancies, and she didn't want to live
through that again?
A: No.
Q: What was the reason she gave you.?
A: We were moving
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Asked and answered. Don't answer it. You've already told him.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You were moving where? Please complete your answer.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't. I told him not to answer the question. You've asked and answered it.
MR. PETROCELLI:
MR. Baker, you cut him off in the middle of a question. Besides
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. I cut him off in the middle of an answer.
MR. PETROCELLI: Middle of an answer. Excuse me. Besides, I don't think it's appropriate to instruct on asked and answered when following up On this area.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well. you're entitled to your opinion.
MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You're right.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: How many conversations did you have about
her getting this abortion before she had it done?
A: I don't know.
Q: More than one?
A: She was very emotional about it, so I
think when we talked about it the first time, I
avoided the conversation, and then she went and had it
done.
Q: When she went and had it done, did you
know that she was doing so?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. So she cleared it with you first.
A: Right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't know what--Don't answer that. I don't know what that means.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did the two of you reach a mutual
decision that she would have it done?
A: No.
Q: So she had it done against your wishes.
A: Yes.
Q: Did she seek any counseling at that time
to your knowledge?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you and she seek any counseling with
respect to this decision?
A: No. Not that I know of. Not that I
recall.
Q: Did she have any medical treatment for
injuries during that pregnancy that resulted in the
abortion?
A: No. Not that I know of, no.
Q: Did she have any medical treatment for
injuries during her pregnancy with Justin?
A: No.
Q: And did she have any medical treatment
for injuries during her pregnancy with Sydney?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if she ever had any medical
treatment for injuries during your relationship with
her?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if she received any medical
treatment as a result of her injuries from the 1989
incident, New Year's Eve?
A: I know she didn't. I wanted her to go,
and she did, and there was nothing for him to do.
Q: She did seek medical treatment?
A: No. I asked A.C. to take her to--she
had a headache or something, and I--we didn't know
if it was from a hangover or from our tussle, so I
asked A.C. to take her to have her checked, but ---she
went down; there was nothing to do,
Q: Where did they go?
A: I think St. John's.
Q: Emergency room?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was on New Year's Day?
A: That was after the whole police thing.
Q: Later on in the morning, you mean?
A: Well, the police didn't see fit to take
her to anyplace, so I thought just in case, she
should.
Q: When you say the 'Police didn't see fit,'
what do you mean by that?
A: They obviously--they didn't take her
anyplace for any medical treatment, so, you know, I
thought she should go to someplace for them to take a
look.
Q: Are you saying that they should have
taken her?
A: I don't know. I don't know if they
should have or shouldn't have. They obviously didn't
see fit to, and they didn't, and when I asked her, she
said they didn't. And I said, "Well, you should go,"
and she didn't want to go, and told A.C. to take her.
Q: When you had this conversation that she
should go, was this in person
A: Yes.
Q: Is this after the police left?
A: Yes.
Q: So when you left the residence while the
police were there, where did you go?
A: I went to a friend's house.
Q: Whose house?
A: Alan Schwartz.
Q: And how long did you stay there
A: 40 minutes maybe, the first time.
Q: Then where did you go?
A: Back to my house.
Q: Were the police gone?
A: Yes.
Q: And was Nicole there?
A: Yes.
Q: Had she gone to the police station?
A: I didn't know at that time.
Q: Do you know whether she went at all that
day to the police station?
A: Now I do, but at the time I didn't.
Q: Okay. And when you got back, was it just
you and she there alone?
A: And A.C.
Q: And how did A.C get there?
A: I don't know. I think Arnelle called
him.
Q: How did Arnelle know about this?
A: Well, she was the one that told--her
and Michelle were the people that told me to leave
because they thought I was gonna get into a--like we
were in an argument with this Detective Edwards, I
believe it was.
Q: Arnelle was living there at the time?
A: She was home at the time, yes.
Q: And Michelle was the housekeeper. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And she was living there, too. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did either Arnelle or Miche1le witness
any of the physical confrontation that you and Nicole
had that evening?
A: Between Nicole and I?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: When the police were on the scene,
Arnelle and Michelle told you to leave?
A: Yes.
Q: And the reason that they told you was to
avoid a confrontation with the police?
A: With Detective Edwards.
Q: And was there some reason why they feared
that you might have a confrontation with Detective
Edwards?
A: Because he was an asshole.
Q: And describe how he behaved.
A: He was saying things to me like---I
don't know--"You two should be apart. She should
leave you."
And I said something to him, "I thought
you were supposed to be diffusing this situation
here," and he made another comment, and I said, "Well,
who are you to be saying this to me?"
And at that point they were telling me,
"0.J.," you know, "Dad, you should"--"Dad, don't do
this," because we were standing out, and Nicole was
trying to get out of the car, and Nicole said
something about the babies.
And I said, "There's two women in here to
take care of the babies," and he said that to them
and--I don't know. He and I had some words, and
then Arnelle and Michelle was saying, "Dad, O.J., just
go."
Q: What were these words that you and
Edwards had?
A: I don't know. He was saying things to me
that I thought a police officer--I thought his job
at that particular time was to diffuse the situation,
and he was doing just the opposite of that.
Q: What was he doing?
A: I don't know. He seemed to be trying to
bait me.
Q: Bait you into doing what?
A: I don't know.
Q: Bait you into getting upset, you mean?
A: Well, he was succeeding into that, yes.
Q: Did he use profanity towards you?
A: I think at one point, yes
Q: Did you towards him?
A: I don't recall. I may have, but I really
don't recall. I don' t recall doing that no.
Q: You heard him testify at the criminal
trial?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he describe the incident accurately
to the best of your recollection?
A: Oh, no. He lied on numerous things.
Q: He did?
A: Yes.
Q: Tell me.
A: Well, he said that Nicole told him, and I
don't believe Nicole would have lied to him, that the
reason for the fight was that I had some of my house
help in bed.
Q: That you were sleeping with your house
help?
A: Yeah, Michelle or Ruth. I mean, I think
the Browns are still pretty close to Ruth--
Q: Who is Ruth?
A: --and if they thought that, they
certainly wouldn't be still close to her.
Michelle--when you see Michelle. I
don't think you would buy that either. And I know
Nicole didn't say that to him, and I know that Nicole
has never said that to anybody, and since there was a
female officer there also
Q: What was her name?
A: I have no idea. And somehow they've hid
her effectively.
Q: Hid her?
A: Yes.
Q: She didn't testify?
A: Yeah, of course not.
And now I understand why this guy was on
the Christopher Commission at that time.
Q: Who?
A: Detective Edwards.
Q: What does that have to do with anything?
A: It has to do with the way he obviously
was treating me. He must have been reported for that
with other people, because he wouldn't have been on a
list that in my mind singled out 40 officers out of 7--
or 8,000 officers as officers who have had problems.
Q: Is that the first time that you had
experienced a problem with an LAPD?
A: Yes. Or any officer, for that matter.
Q: Any officer.
A: Yeah.
Q: Would that be true through June 12, 1994?
A: That's correct.
Q: So through June 12, 1994, the only time
you had a problem with any law enforcement person was
Detective Edwards?
A: Yes.
Q: On the one occasion on January 1 '89.
Right?
A: That's what I believe, yes.
Q: Did you file a report against
MR. Edwards?
A: No.
Q: Detective Edwards. Excuse me.
A: Detective Ferrill spoke to me about it
the next day. I told him that--you know, he seemed
to be as interested in Detective Ferrill--I mean
Detective Edwards as me. And I just said, "Hey, this
guy wasn't a good guy but I didn't want to get into
it because I just wanted this thing to go away
Q: So, Detective Ferrill, based on your
conversation with him, appeared to agree with you,
that Edwards-
A: No. He seemed to be interested in asking
me questions about how Detective Edwards--you know,
what happened with him and I said, "Well. we had some
words."
And he said, "What?"
And I said, "You know, I really don't
want to get into that, you know. I just want to deal
with whatever I got to do to make this thing go away."
Q: Did you not pursue it any further other
than talk to Detective Ferrill, that is, pursue your
complaint against Detective Edwards?
A: Correct.
Q: Now, who is Ruth?
A: Ruth was a nanny
Q: What's Ruth's last name?
A: I don't know. Lou Brown could tell you
that.
Q: Does she still work for the Brown family?
A: No. No. She--no she certainly
doesn't work for them. She came out to help out and
from what I'm told, didn't get paid anything. So she's
not working for them.
Q: Now, did you and Nicole have any
disagreement that evening over your sleeping with
house help?
A: No. And never have we.
Q: Never
A: Ever
Q: Do you know--do you have any knowledge
or information as to what the basis of that comment by
Edwards was?
A: He's the only guy I've ever heard say
anything remotely like that, so you would have to
ask--you know, I have my opinions, but, you know--
Q: What's your opinion?
A: I believe he's a racist, is what I
believe he is, and a liar.
Q: You mean racist against African
Americans?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you believe that at the time?
A: I believe something was wrong with him at
the time. I didn't know he would sit on the stand and
say that Nicole told him I was trying to make--was
having sex with my house help.
Q: Is that the first time you had heard
that?
A: Yes.
Q: Is on the witness stand?
A: Yes.
Q: You didn't hear it at the time?
A: I never heard it any time in my life
until he said it just blurted it out on the stand.
It was amazing.
Q: You had no contact with Detective Edwards between January 1, '89--well, actually, you never
talked to him or saw him after January 1 '89. Is
that right?
A: As far as I know, no. I wouldn't
recognize him, anyway.
Q: You haven't filed--Well, withdrawn.
When you left Alan Schwartz's house and
you came back to Rockingham, you said Cowlings was
there?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you asked Cowlings to take
Nicole to St John's Hospital?
A: Yeah. Nicole said--I said, "You know,
you better"--you know, she said her--she was
looking for some aspirin or something, and I said. "Do
your head bother you?"
And she says, "Yeah, I'm just getting a
headache," and she didn't want to talk.
And I said, "Well, you should have that
checked." And A.C. was there, and Nicole didn't want
to talk to me, so I got some clothes and left.
Q: Where did you go?
A: Back to Alan Schwartz's.
Q: How long did you stay with
MR. Schwartz?
A: A day.
Q: And you came back to Rockingham then?
A: Yes. But I was upset also. I was pretty
upset about the whole thing--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't ask you if you were upset. He asked you when you came back.
THE WITNESS: Yes. Well, I came back to get some clothes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, you came back that day to get
clothes and went back to Schwartz's and stayed there
one night. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Then you came back to Rockingham, and did
you go someplace else?
A: Yeah. I stayed a few nights at a friend
of mine's house named Mike Ornstein.
Q: So the first night was at Schwartz's
house--
A: Yeah.
Q: --and then Ornstein for two nights?
A: Yeah.
Q: And then back at Rockingham?
A: I was at Rockingham most of the time
during that period of time, but I just felt I needed
some distance.
Q: Why were you upset?
A: Because I thought it was a--I thought
it was a--I thought we had had a great night; we had
had, what I felt, a great--a great period of time
together, and to me it was--for the argument to
start the way it did was wrong, and I wasn't happy
with that.
Q: You blamed Nicole for that, the way the
argument started?
A: For the way it started, yes. Not for my
actions, but the way it started. My actions, I was
totally responsible for.
Q: When you--During the three days that
you were staying out at your friends' homes, did you
talk to Nicole?
A: Yeah.
Q: You resolved this pretty quickly?
A: Yeah. But, you know, how do you
resolve--when a relationship got physical like that,
it's hard to--I mean, it bothered us both.
Q: The first time, in your words, the
relationship got physical?
A: Like that, yes, first time it ever got
physical.
Q: Only time?
A: Yes.
Q: You--
A: I mean, when I said only time, I mean
it's the only time that we were physically confronting
one another. Nicole's hit me at times.
Q: She has?
A: But that was nothing. Yeah, I don't
consider that no big deal.
Q: Why not?
A: Because it was--I didn't call the
Police.
Q: And calling the police is a big deal?
A: Yes.
Q: Let me make sure I understand something.
You described at length in your prior testimony that
the physical confrontation was "rassling." That was
your word. Right?
A: I was physically trying to remove her
from the bedroom, yes.
Q: Now, is that the only time that you and
she had ever rassled in that way?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you had never had an occasion
other than that incident to have a physical
confrontation with her where you were trying to
restrain her or remove her?
A: At one point she was at a door, and this
is something that Denise spoke about, and she started
knocking my pictures and things down, and I grabbed
her by her arm and put her out the front door.
Q: Where was that, Mr. Simpson?
A: Rockingham.
Q: Denise witnessed that?
A: She witnessed that, yes.
Q: You, Denise and Nicole. Anyone else
present?
A: And Ed McCabe.
Q: Who is he? Denise's friend?
A: He was a friend of Denise's and mine.
Q: Are you still friends with him?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you seen him since you've been out
of jail?
A: Yes.
Q: On how many occasions?
A: Twice.
Q: When was the last time?
A: Can I ask a question?
Q: Sure.
THE WITNESS: When did you come into town?
MR. LEONARD: Sunday.
THE WITNESS: Sunday morning.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you and
MR. McCabe talk about this
incident?
A: This week? No.
Q: And the prior time that you met him?
A: Pardon me?
Q: And the prior time that you were with
him--
A: No.
Q: --since you got out of jail?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: No, wait a minute. Monday. Let me correct myself. Monday.
MR. PETROCELLI: You are not under oath. Don't worry about it,
MR. Leonard.
MR. LEONARD: No, but since he's-
MR. PETROCELLI: But if you want to be, we can take care of that.
MR. KELLY: Put you on the list.
MR. PETROCELLI: I know
MR. Baker likes putting lawyers under oath.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Anyway, what day was this?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: What day was what?
MR. PETROCELLI: Knocking pictures down in front of Denise and Ed McCabe.
THE WITNESS: It was in the early '80s.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What pictures was she knocking down?
A: Whatever pictures that were around.
Q: On the stairway?
A: Stairway--I had a table in my entry,
armoire, that had a lot of pictures on them and she
just swiped them all off.
Q: Did they get damaged?
A: I don't know. Maybe the frames, maybe
the glass.
Q: And how far was she from the front door?
A: Couple of feet.
Q: Couple feet?
A: Yeah.
Q: And was the door open or closed?
A: Open.
Q: And you just picked her up-
A: I didn't pick her up. I just took her by
her arms and just moved her out the front door.
Q: While you and she were yelling at one
another?
A: I wasn't yelling. She may have been
saying something, but I don't recall.
Q: What was the disagreement about?
A: I don't--I really don't know.
Q: Don't have any recollection why Nicole
was upset?
A: No.
Q: Why she was knocking the pictures down?
A: No.
Q: Is this the only incident that you can
recall when you--when Nicole was throwing pictures
down or knocking them down or tossing them or damaging
pictures and photos?
A: I--you know, I can't--I know that
I've seen pictures broken, but I can't recall seeing
her break them. But, you know, I was in one room; she
was in another room. The only other occasion is I was
walking on down the street one day, and she drove up
and started throwing pictures at me.
Q: You were driving down the street
A: I was walking down the street.
Q: Walking?
A: Yeah.
Q: What street?
A: Little Santa Monica.
Q: Walking to or from your car?
A: From a restaurant.
Q: To your car?
A: Actually, I think I was walking to
another store.
Q: And were you and Nicole having a meal at
this restaurant together?
A: No. No.
Q: What was the time frame?
A: Oh, I don't know. Oh, maybe '84.
Q: And Nicole came driving by.
A: Yeah.
Q: And started throwing pictures?
A: Like Frisbee-throwing these pictures.
Q: What kind of pictures?
A: Pictures that she had had framed of us
and stuff.
Q: Do you know what the cause of this
conflict was?
A: I was walking out of a restaurant with a
guy named Randy England, who--I can't recall, but I
think at the time was one of Denise's boyfriends; and
as we were walking out of the restaurant, I can't
think of her name, but Elaine Young's daughter was
walking down, and we were talking as we walked out,
and Nicole showed up--I mean drove by and just
started throwing pictures.
Elaine Young's the lady who sold me my
house, and--
Q: Rockingham?
A: Rockingham. And we weren't with these
people. We were walking to another store, and I don't
know what Nicole thought, but she Frisbee'd those
pictures at us, and she said something very unpleasant
to the girl.
Q: What did she say.?
A: You'd have to ask the girl that. I
think--
Q: Do you remember?
A: I don't remember. I read it somewhere
since--when I was in jail I read it, because I had
forgotten the incident, and I read it when I was in--
Q: What was it that you read?
A: I don't know. It was just something that
I read when I was--
Q: You don't recall. Is that right?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. Did you talk to Nicole after this
incident to find out what it was all about?
A: I tried to.
Q: What did she say?
A: She didn't. That was the incident--
that was the time she moved out and went to my
friends, and I proposed to her the next day.
Q: Did Nicole--
A: I remember that portion of it.
Q: Do you know how it was Nicole had framed
pictures in her car?
A: Yeah. She had--she was having pictures
framed. and I guess she was picking them up from the
framer.
Q: Was she moving out? Is that why she had
pictures
A: No.
Q: --in the car?
A: No. She was just framing pictures of
ours. In our home is--our home was like a photo
album. Nicole's big on pictures and frames, and every
wall in our house had pictures and frames, and we were
constantly traveling and doing things, and she was
constantly taking picnurs and constantly framing
pictures.
Q: Were there any other incidents involving
her throwing pictures?
A: Not that I recall. She knocked a picture
over once. She knocked a couple pictures over once in
'93, but she didn't break them or anything.
Q: This is at Gretna Green?
A: No. This is at my home in Rockingham.
Q: What was the date of this incident,
Mr. Simpson?
A: I would say April of '90. April.
Q: And what was the cause of this problem?
A: It was she wanted us to get back
together. I was reluctant. I had taken a trip with
her to--so we could get away, at my mother's advice,
to find out why she wanted to get back together. I
spent a few days with her. I came back, and she--my
kids were at my house swimming, and she came by and
wanted to know why Paula's pictures were still there,
and I said "Because Paula's my girlfriend."
And she said, well, that wasn't gonna
work, and she slapped the picture and left. But she
called and apologized the next day.
Q: Was this before you and she had made the
agreement under certain ground rules to reconcile?
A: Before I laid the ground rules and agreed
to try it for a year. This is about a month, I would
say, before then.
Q: You say you laid them down.
A: Yes.
Q: Isn't it true that you wanted to get back
with her?
A: No.
Q: As much as she with you?
A: No.
Q: She was insistent?
A: Very insistent.
Q: And you relented.
A: No. By--by May I knew I loved her. I
didn't know if I was in love with her. I knew I loved
the time that we spent with our kids. And when they
followed us down to Cabo, that trip, the group of
people I was staying with left, and Nicole and the
kids asked me could I stay, and I stayed a few extra
days, and I truly enjoyed the time that I spent.
Nicole and I were very loving in that time, and it was
during that time that I--and it was right around
Mother's Day that I told her that I would try it.
Q: So your view of this reconciliation is that you took her back, not that she took you back. Is that right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't know that anybody took anybody back.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't think it's a view either. I don't think anybody argues or anybody would argue that Nicole was very insistent and--to get back together. And I told her no the first two or three times, but she wouldn't take no for an answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, you said you loved her, but you
didn't know if you were in love with her.
A: Yes.
Q: During that following year or the year
that ensued, did you ever come to the realization that
you were in love with her?
A: Once I came to--it was almost a year.
It was either the end of March or the first day or so
of April. I was surprised that I was at that point
finally amenable to them moving back in, and it was
the first time that I honestly felt that--in my
heart, anyway, that maybe this would work, and--
well, and I called Lou Brown and Judy Brown and told
them.
Q: The first time since your divorce that
you felt that way.?
A: No. The first three months of--Oh, my
divorce, yes. First time since my divorce for sure,
yes.
Q: And first time since Nicole starting--
started to pursue you to reconcile that you felt that
way. Right?
A: Well, she pursued me for two and a half
months before I relented.
I said two and a half months, and I
shouldn't explain this, but when I say "two and a half
months," previous to that she had been sending me
tapes and cupcakes and stuff. But from the day she
showed up at my house with letters and tapes and
talking to me about getting back together, from that
day to the time that I said okay was about two and a
half months.
Q: And how long was she sending messages
through the children and cupcakes and things like that
before she showed up with the letters and the tapes?
A: It started in late February.
Q: Of 1993?
A: Yes.
Q: So you had only been officially divorced
five or six months. Right?
A: Officially divorced, yes, but we had gone
on with our lives a lot earlier than that.
Q: Okay. So from February '93 till about
late March, early April?
A: Yes.
Q: I may have misspoke. When did she show
up at your house with the letters and the tapes?
A: In mid--mid March.
Q: Mid March?
A: Mid to late--you know, it was the
latter part of March. I know that.
Q: There was a letter she wrote you, a long
letter?
A: Yes.
Q: And she gave you some videotapes. Right?
A: Well, they were our tapes, and it was--
yeah, and she wanted me to look at them.
Q: One was a wedding tape?
A: Yes.
Q And the other one was of the children?
A: Yeah, a wedding tape that's never been
sold, and a tape of our children.
Q: What do you mean, "never been sold"?
A: I never sold it, even though some people
wanted to buy it, but they evidently got somebody else
to okay them to sell them some tapes.
Q: Your wedding tapes have been sold?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know who sold them?
A: Well, I know who gave the okay.
Q: Who?
A: The Browns.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Let's take a break. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record. and the time is approximately 10:55.
[Recess.]
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 11:16.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Was there a particular event that sticks
out in your mind when Nicole showed up at your house
with the letters and the tapes?
A: Yes.
Q: What was that?
A: The fact that she showed up. I hadn't
seen her in few months.
Q: Between February of '93 when she started
to send the cupcakes and messages through the kids and
this time she showed up, you were not in contact
with her?
A: Not at all.
Q: Not at all?
A: Not at all.
Q: Did not call her?
A: Not at all.
Q: Did not return messages back to her?
A: I personally didn't, no.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Assuming that there were messages from her.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You said I think the last session of your
deposition or one of them that she used to communicate
messages through the kids.
A: Yes, or through Cathy Randa.
Q: Cathy. That's right.
By the time she showed up at your house
on this occasion in March of '93, had you already met
Paula?
A: Paula was my girlfriend.
Q:Paula was your girlffiend. That's right.
You met her in May of '92. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. In fact you know the day, don't
you?
A: Roughly, yes.
Q: What is it?
A: 22nd of May. Well, I met her before the
22nd. I actually met her like on the 12th or 13th.
22nd of May is when we dated, roughly.
Q: And you bought her the bracelet as a
two-year anniversary, two years later. Right?
A: Well, for an anniversary date. We hadn't
been together for two years, but...
Q: Two-year anniversary date.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, when she showed up at your
doorstep in March of '93, that was uninvited, I take
it. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And this is first time you had seen her
in a while?
A: Seen her, yes.
Q: You had spoken on the phone?
A: Yes.
Q: About getting back together?
A: No.
Q: Just about the kids?
A: No. She had called me right before this.
Q: Oh, to--
A: To ask that she needed to talk me.
Q: And you said yes?
A: No.
Q: What did you say?
A: I said I didn't--if it wasn't about the
kids, I didn't want to talk.
Q: Why were you so adamant about this?
A: Because every time I talked to her in
the--well, I was just adamant. I didn't want to
deal with her problems because generally when I
talked to her, it was about her problems, and I didn't
want to be involved in her problems.
Q: What were her problems at that time?
A: We go back to her being pregnant; went
back to her having a problem with some boyfriend; we
went back to Thanksgiving she was having a hassle with
a boyfriend, and, consequently, didn't bring my kids
to New York after we had agreed on it. Consequently,
I had to get lawyers involved to get my kids for
Christmas. Consequently, at the last minute she
wanted to come to New York.
It was just--I just made a decision at
one point that if we were going to communicate, it
should have been about the kids, and outside of the
kids I didn't want any--to deal with her.
Q: When did you make that decision? In
other words, what was sort of the last straw where you
didn't want to communicate with her anymore except
about the kids? After Christmas of '93?
A: It wasn't the last straw. It was just
after Christmas, after we had a great time together
Christmas and she called me--yeah, after Christmas.
After Christmas. It was no specific incident. It was
all of those incidences, and I just made up my mind
after she left New York that I would only communicate
with her when it came to the kids.
Q: And that basically held true all of
January '93, February '93 and part of March of '93?
A: Correct
Q: Did--Let me backup for a second now.
During the time before she showed up at your doorstep
in mid March of '93, had she ever--and after your--
the two of you split up, did she ever come talk to you
about problems with other men?
A: Yes.
Q: Lean on your shoulder, so to speak, ask
for advice, those kind of things?
A: Advice, yes.
Q: And about what men did she come talk to
you?
A: Twice about Joseph, and the pregnancy.
Q: What were the two times about Joseph?
Tell me about those incidents.
A: The first I think she was informing me
that she had met a guy that I--quote, she was crazy
about. Evidently she had just spent time in Mexico
with him and--but she didn't know. She didn't know
if he had really split up with his girlfriend, and so
she was--you know, it was--you know, it was her
first time, I guess, and her--since '77 that she was
getting into a real relationship with a person other
than me, and she just--I don't think she totally
believed that he had split up with his girlfriend or
something, and she just was talking to me about it.
Q: What was the other occasion?
A: I gather at some point in time someone
had told her that I was somewhere with--that I was
somewhere and Joseph was with another girl and that I
was at this place, and she came over to talk to me
about that. Well, she didn't come over. We actually
went to dinner, I think, and talked about that. It
was in the summer or early June, mid June maybe. Mid
June.
Q: We're into 1992 now. Right?
A: Yeah. We're in the summer of '92,
during the summer.
Q: So during this time period you and she
were split up, not together as a couple, but had a
healthy relationship?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Okay. And that lasted until things
deteriorated in November of '92 over this Thanksgiving
incident;
A: Yes. Yes. It was very good right up
until when she didn't bring the kids back for
Thanksgiving and gave me no reason why.
Q: Did you ever talk to her about that?
A: I asked her why.
Q: And what did she say?
A: She said she just didn't feel like it.
Q: Did she tell you why?
A: No. She told me why eventually, once we
were back together a year or so later, but--
Q: What did she say then?
A: She was having beefs with her--I guess
her boyfriend, and whenever she talked to me I was
short, and she just said she just didn't feel like
flying to New York and--she just didn't feel like
flying to New York. That was it.
Q: Who was her boyfriend then?
A: I believe it was Brett.
Q: Brett.
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you have a healthy relationship with
her from the moment the two of you decided to split up
in early 1992 until this point in Thanksgiving time?
A: Healthy, I would say--I went through a
tough time. I didn't want to split up. So for me
it wasn't healthy for me.
Q: But initially you didn't want to split
up, but then eventually you reckoned with it. Right?
A: When she told me that she was crazy about
another guy, there was no reason for me to try to stay
in it.
Q: Now, when was that, that conversation?
A: That was the night I believe--we keep
getting the Mother's Day--but it was roughly
Mother's Day or the day after--I believe it was the
day after Mother's Day in '92. I was at the Browns'
house, and Nicole showed up real late from Mexico.
Q: Who did she say she was crazy about?
A: Joseph.
Q: Joseph. So you said on your video that
you and Nicole had lunch on January 6, 1992, where
Nicole told you that she wanted to split up.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And from that point on until this
conversation on Mother's Day of 1992 you were of the
frame of mind of wanting to put the relationship back
together. Right?
A: Well, you know, I mean I--yes, I was
thrown off--basically, yes. It was one incident
l that may have changed.
Q: What was that incident?
A: The Keith Zlomsowitzh.
Q: That was before Mother's Day '92?
A: Yes.
Q: And was that shortly before?
A: A few weeks, I would say.
Q: After the Keith Zlomsowitzh incident, did
you still want to put the relationship back on track?
A: It's hard to say. I just know when she
told me she met this guy she was crazy about, but she
didn't know that--it was that day in my mind I moved
on.
Q: Emotionally. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And as of Mother's Day of '92, you had
not yet met Paula. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: The Zlomsowitzh incident, was that the first major setback in your plans to try to win her over again?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, he didn't say he had plans to win her over. He just said--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Or your desire to reconcile with her.
Was the Zlomsowitzh incident like the first major
setback for you?
A: No. When she moved out was a major
setback for me.
Q: Well, I understand, but you were trying
to pursue her and get the relationship back on track.
A: I don't know. It's hard to say. I just
know that I accepted it was over when she came and
spoke to me about Keith. I--at that point in time I
emotionally left and--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Keith or Brett?
MR. PETROCELLI: Not Brett.
THE WITNESS: Joseph
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We're all--
THE WITNESS: At that point I moved on. I had started--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay.
A: I was ready to find somebody.
Q: The two of you have cordial and positive
relations between January 6, 1992 and the Mother's Day
of '92 incident?
A: Yes.
Q: And continued again through the rest of
that year?
A: Yes.
Q: Then Thanksgiving things went downhill?
A: Well, I can't say it went downhill, no.
I just say at that point of Thanksgiving, lawyers got
involved for me to get the kids for Christmas, and we
actually had a very, very good three or four time--
days at Christmas, a real good time.
Q: Did you communicate with her between
Thanksgiving and Christmas 1992?
A: Very little, almost--if it--if I
communicated with her, it had to do with arranging for
the kids with-- you know, after the lawyers had got
involved, which day the kids would come back, who
would bring them back, because she wasn't coming back.
Q: Were you romantically involved with
Nicole at all during the year 1992?
A: We had one night--we had a couple of
nights. One night she came to my house, and then one
night after we had gone to Mezzaluna--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: The answer to that is yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm sorry. Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: How many?
A: I'm not sure of this, but--I mean
kissing and stuff, I would say twice.
Q: Were any of them after the Mother's Day
of '92?
A: No. No.
Q: Both before?
A: Yes.
Q: Were they both before the Zlomsowitzh
incident?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: So between January and the Zlomsowitzh
incident of '92--
A: Yes.
Q: --is when you had relations with Nicole
in '92?
A: Yes.
Q: And thereafter for the remainder of that
year did not. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And when for the first time did you have
relations with her in 1993?
A: I would say beginning of April she showed
up at my house one night.
Q: Okay, I'll get back to that. In April of
1993. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, she spent some time with you
in Christmas, and it went well, you said. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: That's Christmas of '92. That's in
New York?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were with Paula then. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Was Paula with you and Nicole at the same
time?
A: No. No.
Q: Was Paula part of the four days that you
spent with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Was there any friction be tween
Paula and you over that?
A: A little bit.
Q: Now, had you made any plans to marry
Paula?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever propose to her?
A: No.
Q: You and she ever discuss marriage?
A: Marriage, no.
Q: Getting engaged?
A: No.
Q: Having a family, living together?
A: Kids, yes.
Q: And you discussed this in the year 1992
and up through some point in '93, I take it?
A: I don't know if it ever came up in '92 or
'93. I just--I'm sorry. Ask the question again.
Q: When did it come up?
A: It didn't--it was never a plan. You
know, Paula is a--as she stated, Paula's always
wanted a family. She wanted the white picket fence.
Q: She wanted to get married to you and have
a family. Right?
A: She never told me she wanted to get
married to me.
Q: Well. she wanted a family with you.
Right?
A: She never told me that, ever. She always
just said that her dream was always this house with
the white picket fence and kids.
Q: But you understood that she would have
liked to have that with you. Right?
A: Well, the longer we were together, I
would have assumed that eventually I was--yeah.
Yeah.
Q: Are you saying the two of you never
talked about that?
A: Never talked about that no.
Q: Never once talked about having kids
together?
A: Yes, we talked about having kids and
filling houses up with kids, yes.
Q: Did you--
A: But it was--
Q: Go ahead.
A: It was at an affair that we talked about
that.
Q: It was at an affair.
A: Yes.
Q: Was that the evening of June 11?
A: Yes.
Q: 1994. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Before that evening had you ever spoken
to Paula about that?
A: Us having kids?
Q: Yeah.
A: I don't really think so. Paula just
wants to have kids. She wants to have a simple life
and kids and house and family.
Q: When Nicole showed up on your doorstep in
March of 1993 what was the state of your relationship
with Paula?
A: Great.
Q: You had a monogamous relationship with
her?
A: Yes.
Q: And were the two of you living together
at anytime?
A: No.
Q: Did she stay with you often?
A: If she visited me in New York for a few
days--she has a very active career, so she was
traveling as much as I was.
Q: Well, from mid-March of--well, when
Nicole came to see you in March of '93, what was the
reason she told you she wanted to get back together?
A: I'm sorry?
Q: When Nicole came to see you in mid-March
of '93.
A: After she saw me
Q: When she came to see you to talk to
you
A: Okay.
Q: --what was the reason that she said that
she wanted to get back together?
A: She told me, you know, "I love you. I
never said I didn't love you. I needed to do the
things that I did this year." She didn't like her
life. She didn't like the people she was hanging
around with. She--quote, "All the guys are just
trying to get in your pants. All the girls I run
around with, they're just looking for somebody with
money to marry. Everybody's doing drugs, and I said
to myself, I had a good life, I had a good family, and
I want to come home."
She went on to discuss that evidently she
had been going to some therapy, and they had taught
her something, and she asked me if I had read a letter
that the kids had gave me, which I hadn't, and we
were--it was curious, too, because she says in the
letter she wishes we were taking a walk, and I was
taking a walk with her at the time.
Q: Why hadn't you read that letter the kids
gave you?
A: Because they just walked in with it and
handed it to me, and then I went looking for where
they went, and then I noticed Nicole was parked across
my driveway, and I--
Q: Did she tell you that she regretted the
decision to split up with you.?
A: No, she said she didn't regret that. She
needed the time that she had.
Q: Did she talk to you at all about abuse by
you?
A: No.
Q: Did that come up at all in this
conversation?
A: I don't recall that coming up at all.
Q: What about infidelity?
A: In this conversation her sole purpose was
to get back with me.
Q: What did--By the way, what people did
she say she did not like?
A: She didn't say. She said a--I didn't
know who her friends were. You know, I knew Cora, but
all these other people who we see now, I didn't know
who these people were.--
Q: Who do you mean by "these other people,"
Mr. Simpson?
A: The Keiths, the Cicis, these people--I
don't know these people.
Q: Cici was not someone who was in your and
Nicole's life before you split up?
A: No.
Q: Was Cora?
A: Cora, yes.
Q: She was. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: But not Cici. Right?
A: Not Cici.
Q: And not Faye Resnick?
A: Oh, no, not Faye Resnick.
Q: What about Chris Kardashian and Chris
Jenner?
A: We knew Chris Kardashian--I know
Chris--they were friends because of Bob and I were
friends. They never did anything outside of Bob and
I Nicole wasn't a big fan of all the fingernails and
hair and clothes thing, and that--Chris was--that
was Chris' thing.
Q: What about the Schulmans? Were they part
of your circle of friends before you and Nicole split
up?
A: At one point. Then Nicole had a
falling-out with the Schulmans, and I believe by the
time we split up Nicole hadn't spoken a word to Linda
in a few years, even though I would see them from time
to time.
Q: And what about the LeBarons?
A: You know, I don't--we saw them maybe
once a year.
Q: Okay. When you and Nicole split up in
'92, who was in your circle of friends, your closest
friends?
A: I would say for Nicole it was Cora. I
don't think she saw much of Suzie Kehoe, who has been
her closest friend most of the years we were together
up to that time, The Schwartzes--
Q: Alan Schwartz?
A: Yeah. And Pam Schwartz.
And then Nicole's life was more geared
around the kids, you know.
Q: Those are the main people, though?
A: Yes, I would say for the main people
Q: When you took vacations, you took
vacations with these people
A: We had in the past, but--yeah, we had
in the past.
Q: Okay. What did you tell Nicole--
A: Not Cora. We hadn't taken vacations with
Cora, no.
Q: Not Cora
Now, what did you tell Nicole in March of
'93 when she said she wanted to go back?
A: I told her I was in a relationship and--
but essentially I felt that I had loved her and I
always would love her, but I was in a relationship,
and that I had suggested--I was big on us doing
something together as a family once a week, and we
had--since I had been back we hadn't done that, and
I said, "But I do believe we should at least once a
week do something together with the kids."
Q: And did she accept that?
A: She had no choice.
Q: And did you carry out on that plan?
A: Well, what happened
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's a yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What happened?
A: What do you mean?
Q: You said, "Well, what happened"
A: Well, yes, we did carry out on that plan,
but Nicole didn't accept that plan, and Nicole just
started showing up everywhere.
Q: Against your wishes, you mean?
A: Well, when you say "against wishes,"
I mean
Q: Was it bothering you?
A: To an extent, yes, but not--I mean, it
wasn't unpleasant, but it got complicated.
Q: How?
A: Because I'd be places and be meeting
Paula places, or Paula would come to a golf course and
was gonna meet me for drinks or something, and Nicole
would show up before Paula showed up.
Q: Uninvited?
A: Well, she was going to the driving range.
Q: It was your sense that she was going
there because you were there?
A: She told me that. She said if we got
back together--and I'm crazy about golf--she
wanted to learn how to play golf, so she started
taking golf lessons.
Q: But are you saying it was a coincidence that she showed up at these places when you were there, or she was trying to meet up with you there?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That calls for speculation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What was your understanding of what was happening?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: How can he have an understanding unless she told him.?
MR. PETROCELLI: Because he can observe human nature.
THE WITNESS: Well, she knew what time I played golf, and when I was coming off--coincidentally, when I was coming off the 18th green, Marshal would say, "Your wife." I said, "My wife? I don't have a wife. "Your ex-wife is on the driving range," and I'd go down.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did she show up at any other places where
you were besides the golf course?
A: My house.
Q: Again, uninvited?
A: Yes. But that was nothing because--
A: well. I can't say that was nothing. Quite often it
was either the kids were at my house or she was coming
by to drop something off for the kids or she was
dropping the kids off, an then it got to be a little
more than that.
Q: When did that happen?
A: After we went to Cabo.
Q: How did it get to be a little more than
that?.
A: Well, she started coming late night.
Q: Without your asking her to?
A: Yes.
Q: And while you had Paula there with you?
A: No. Paula--well, a few times. I just
assume that when she didn't see Paula's car, she would
ring the bell, but if she saw Paula's car, she--I
mean, you know, it depends if she knew I was home or
what.
Q: Did she have a key?
A: At that time, no.
Q: Is this the Ashford bell?
A: Yes.
Q: You went to Cabo with her in April of
'93?
A: Yes.
Q: And the two of you went as a couple?
A: Yes.
Q: Who did you go with?
A: Just her and I.
Q: And you were romantically involved during
that trip?
A: In that trip, yes.
Q: Yeah. And did your plans for the future
change during that trip?
A: I hadn't made up my mind one way or the
other.
Q: You were still kind of on this
once-a-week family event?
A: Well, yeah, that was still what I wanted
it to be, but at this time that wasn't what was
happening.
Q: Okay. And after Cabo did Nicole start
showing up more and more often?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did she at some point show up
in Mexico?
A: Yes.
Q: When was that? After the Cabo trip?
A: Yes. That was in May.
Q: And who did you go with to Cabo --to
Mexico with?
A: Allen and Gail Austin, Craig and Melissa
Baumgarten, I believe Hos-- Bob Hoskins went with
us, and Cory Wolman.
Q: Where did she stay?
A: At a friend's house.
Q: In Cabo?
A: Yes.
Q: And Nicole showed up at this house?
A: Well, she called. When I called to leave
a number where I would be, she said, "We're coming."
I said, "What do you mean 'we're
coming'?"
Q: Who's "we"?
A: And she said her and her friend and the
kids--And I said, "Well, where you staying?" She
said a friend's ex husband had a co-op, which I've
read now is a villa, but that's where they were
staying.
Q: This friend was Faye Resnick?
A: Yes.
Q: So she showed up with Faye Resnick?
A: Yes.
Q: And Justin and Sydney?
A: Yes.
Q: And Faye's child?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: What's her name?
A: I can't recall her name right now.
Q: Francesca?
A: Francesca.
Q: And did you and Nicole see each other
during this trip?
A: Yes. I would--after I would after
golf I'd drive into town and yes. The answer's
yes.
Q: When she said she wanted to come down,
did you resist that at all?
A: She didn't say she wanted to come down.
They said they were going down. They were going to
stay
Q: Did you try to talk her out of it?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And after Cabo you came back, and
she started showing up a lot at your house. Any other
places, too?
A: No. After Cabo I came back and
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Is this his Cabo of May or Cabo of April? Is this the second Cabo trip?
MR. PETROCELLI: Good question,
MR. Baker. I think this is after the
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I'm so overwhelmed
MR. KELLY: There's a first for everything, Bob.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I'm so overwhelmed, I can't
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: This is the first Cabo trip, in April of
'93.
A: Okay, the first Cabo trip.
Q: You said that from that point on she
started coming over unannounced to your house quite a
bit?
A: Yeah, more regularly.
Q: More regularly.
A: Yeah.
Q: And did she show up at any other places
during that time period other than the golf course?
A: Show up?
Q: Yeah.
A: She came to my office a few times.
Q: Were you telling her not to do these
things?
A: No.
Q: In other words, you never said, "Look,
Nicole, you're coming around too often. Please don't
do this"?
A: No. No.
Q: So it was not bothering you at all.
Right?
A: It was uncomfortable, but, no, I like my
kids, and I have always liked Nicole.
Q: So even though it was uncomfortable, you
didn't tell her you were uncomfortable about it.
A: No.
Q: Okay.
A: No.
Q: And at some point you then decided to
have this reconciliation with her. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And that occurred after the second Cabo
trip, in May of '93?
A: Actually during that second Cabo trip.
Actually it was during the Cabo trip that I made up my
mind that I would give it a shot.
Q: Was there anything in particular that
caused you to make that decision?
A: I really--After my friends left, Nicole
and the kids--Justin kept saying--Sydney and
Justin, "Come on, stay, dad, stay," and I stayed and I
just really enjoyed myself with my fam ily.
Q: Was Faye still there?
A: Yeah.
Q: So during that trip you and she made the
agreement that you've previously testified about.
Right?
A: Yeah. I think--I came to the conclusion
then--I don't know if I worded it to her then. I
may have right after I came back, but it was at that
point in my mind that I said I was gonna give this a
shot.
And your relationship with Paula was good
at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Not on the way down?
A: I think in the previous month, because
Paula came by and I know Nicole was there--that's
when she met Nicole. And I didn't even know Nicole
was there. I was upstairs--and then I would say,
"Oh, Paula, I was having dinner with Nicole and the
kids," and it became some friction, but the
relationship was still good, but it was friction. It
was some friction.
Q: Over Nicole?
A: Yeah, I think over--I can't recall. It
just seemed that sometimes there was a couple of
conflicts time-wise, where Paula wanted to do
something but I had told the kids I'd do something,
and then Nicole would end up with me and the kids
doing something.
Q: It's fair to say that the conflicts that
you had with Paula during this time period stemmed
from her fear that you might get back together with
Nicole?
A: Well, you'd have to ask her that, but I
think
Q: You and she discussed that. Right?
A: I think it had to do with--I didn't --
I don't think I ever discussed with her about getting
back with Nicole until after I made up my mind, and
then I discussed it with her. Then I yeah, we
talked about it.
Q: Before that time, though, you and Paula
had discussions where she was unhappy about Nicole
being in your life. Is that a fair statement?
A: I can't--I don't recall specifically
having a conversation about Nicole being in my life.
I do know that it was uncomfortable, and Paula wasn't
happy when Nicole was coming around a lot.
Q: Okay. How did Paula take it when you
told her?
A: You know, she--you know, Paula's got a
lot of pride. I'm sure she was hurt. She didn't show
that hurt at that time. She was very supportive of me
at--verbally about getting my family back together.
I think she was very skeptical that it would work, but
she was--it was--you know, it was painful to do
it but I think she was supportive but hurt, and so
was I
Q: And where was this when you told her?
A: I believe we were at her house, and I
think we went to Le Dome for lunch, and it was right
at that--right around then.
Q: May '93?
A: May '93, I believe it was, yes.
Q: Now, from that point on you saw her only
one time?
A: I think I saw her twice.
Q: Twice?
A: Yeah. I think I ran into her one other
time, yeah.
Q: Until you got back together with her
in
A: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: --May of '94. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So you only saw her twice in that ensuing
year. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And not romantically involved with her at
all.
A: No.
Q: Okay. And didn't speak to her on the
phone.
A: I may have spoke to her a few times on
the phone, because I know a few times I would call
Cathy and Paula would be on the phone. I know a few
times I would run into someone who lived in Panama
City, and I'd call her mother, and I believe on one of
of those occasions she was there or was coming the
next day, and I called the next day to talk to her,
but if it was three or four times in that year, it
would have been the most. Paula called, I know, the
day Marcus was getting married. You know--
Q: She write to you?
A: No.
Q: And you to her?
A: No.
Q: When you were in New York during the
August football season, 1993, did you see Paula?
A: No.
Q: Why did--Did Paula tell you why she was
skeptical that your reconciliation would work?
A: I don't know. I don't think she
explained it. I think it was more of an attitude than
she said it, but I was skeptical, so it was
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't ask you if you were skeptical.
THE WITNESS: Okay. No, she didn't --I can't recall any specific thing. I think it was just more an attitude.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you decide to get back together with
Nicole essentially for the kids?
A: I mean that would be the easy thing, but
don't think so. I think--I didn't know how I felt
about Nicole. I truly didn't know how I felt about
Nicole. I knew that when we split, I was in love with
her, and I knew I would have never left her at that
point in our relationship, and I was--you know, I
had to try to understand how I felt, and the kids
obviously was in the mix, but I think it was about
myself first.
Q: Now, over the next year you saw Nicole on
a monogamous basis. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And then split up with her the day after Mother's Day of 1994. Is that right;
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We've been through all of this ad nauseum.
THE WITNESS: No, let me see. I got to back up here a little bit. For the next year I saw Nicole. We didn't date other people. I never asked her what she did. She never asked me what I did.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay.
A: it was--we were going. We were
working on getting our relationship back together.
Q: What I want to know is: During that next
year from May of '93 to May of '94, how many times did
you break apart, split up, call it off and then get
back together again?
A: There were two occasions that I was dead
set on ending it, but it never had happened.
Q: And those two were when?
A: The argument that's now the infamous 911
call.
Q: October 25, '93?
A: Yeah. And there was one other occasion.
I believe there was one other occasion.
Q: When was that?
A: It was early on. It was early on. It
was in '93.
Q: Early in the reconciliation period.
Right?
A: Well, relatively early. It was in '93.
I know that.
Q: What happened?
A: I--something was in the National
Enquirer, and then I was out with Nicole and I believe
Faye and Christian, and it was all in the same kind of
period of time. They were comparing notes about maybe
Joseph or some thing, and I just--I was, you know, I
was kind of missing Paula, and I just didn't feel--I
wasn't--I didn't feel I was in love with Nicole, and
I just didn't like what was going on.
Q: Was this at the California Sushi?
A: That was the dinner that they were
discussing this guy Joseph. I believe it was Joseph.
I may be wrong. I guess whatever the guy they were
discussing, they both had had this guy, and I didn't
know what she was accustomed to hanging around, but I
was in shock that in front of me they would be having
this conversation.
Q: Did you start arguing with her at the
table?
A: No. I said I left. I left. I didn't
argue at the table at all.
Q: Was it a table?
A: I believe we left the sushi bar and went
to a table. yes.
Q: And no argument with her? You got up and
left?
A: I got up and said, "I can't believe" I--
"I don't know who the hell you think I am." I either
asked Chris to pay the bill or gave him some money,
and I walked out.
Q: That's all that happened, from your
account of that. Is that right?
A: Inside. They came out and was trying to
talk me into, you know, coming back in and stuff, but
I was leaving.
Q: Did you have any argument with her
outside?
A: About coming back in, and I said I wasn't
coming. I said, "I can't believe"--"Who the hell do
you think I am?" You know, "You guys going to be
talking about this. I don't know what your other
boyfriends did, but, you know, you got me confused
with somebody."
Q: Were you saying that in a loud, angry
voice outside?
A: I don't know I'm loud all the time,
man, so when you tell me "a loud, angry voice," I
think it's the way I talk normally.
Q: Did you observe whether other people were
hearing what you were saying?
A: I don't believe so. No. There was no
crowd around. It was just the four of us. I think a
police car drove by at one point.
Q: Were you drinking that evening?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you drunk?
A: No.
Q: Now, what upset you at the table?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Other than what he just told you about?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, you said something they were
talking about Joseph
A: I think it was Joseph
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We just went through all this.
THE WITNESS: Some guy they both had screwed.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Why would her talking about Joseph upset
you?
A: Well, I think if your wife and a
girlfriend was talking about some guy that both of
them screwed, you'd get up and leave. If you don't--
Q: Well, were they talking about having sex
with Joseph?
A: Whatever the guy was. I believe it was
Joseph. They both had screwed this guy, and they were
talking about sex with this guy.
Q: Well, that's what I'm asking you. Did
they just mention the name Joseph, or were they
talking about sex with Joseph?
A: They were talking about sex with a guy.
I'm assuming it was Joseph. I don't have any clear
recollection it was Joseph, but it was a guy that they
both had had, and when they were kind of comparing
notes about it--
Q: In your presence?
A: --I was in shock.
Q: When Nicole and Faye were doing this.
Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Or were they doing it just talking to one
another, not to you and Christian?
A: The four of us were sitting at a table,
the four of us, and this was a conversation that was
going on, and I looked at Christian and he kind of did
something and--
Q: Did you use profanity at Nicole in the
restaurant before you got up?
A: No. No. I don't think I said any thing
except--well, I may have said, you know, "I don't
know who in the hell you think I am, to have this
conversation in front of me. I'm outta here."
Q: Did you hear Faye Resnick's account of
this incident in her book?
A: I may have. I did read her book.
Q: Yeah, I know you did.
She said that you were screaming and
yelling and using profanity at the table. Is that
true?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: And she said you followed her down to the
ladies' room
A: No, that's wrong.
Q: She said you barged into the ladies'
room, kicking the door open, going inside?
A: That's wrong.
Q: Said you made a big scene in front of the
patrons and the restaurant manager?
A: That's--she said that, yes.
Q: Yeah. Is that true?
A: No.
Q: You drove home separately from Nicole that evening?
Q: And did Nicole get driven to Rocking--
or Nicole was at Gretna Green then. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you went back to Rockingham.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, after that incident did you
and Nicole not see each other for a while?
A: No. We saw each other almost
immediately.
Q: Okay. In both those incidents
A: Both those incidents?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Be 10-25.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: 10-25 and this California Sushi bar
incident. Was it Nicole who, when those incidents
occurred, came to you and sort of apologized and
wanted to put things back together again?
A: Most certainly at the sushi bar. I think
it was a joint thing at the other one. I think I--I
think we both apologized to each other at the second
one, and I was--I may have apologized for being
loud, but certainly not apologized for the content.
Q: Loud at what incident?
A: '93.
Q: The sushi bar incident?
A: No, no. The 911 incident.
Q: You apologized for being loud.
A: Yeah. You know, it was an argument. It
was--but I don't apologize for why I was arguing,
you know.
Q: Okay. Did you also have an incident
involving Nicole at the Harley Davidson Cafe opening:
in October of '93 in New York City?
A: No.
Q: You attended that with Christian
Reichardt and Faye Resnick?
A: Yes.
Q: And shortly before that event an article
appeared in the National Enquirer about you and
Nicole?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Any tabloid article come out around that
period of time that upset you at all?
A: Not that I'm aware of, no.
Q: And did you have any disagreement with
Nicole either that evening or the next evening at your
place in New York?
A: I think the next evening Nicole was upset
that a friend of mine and Faye were on the phone late
that night and
Q: Was that Mark Packer?
A: Mark Packer, yes.
Q: Who was on the phone with Mark? You--
A: Faye.
Q: She was upset with you?
A: Yes, that's--yes. And I kept saying,
"She's your friend. Why are you pissed at me?"
"Because he's your friend."
"So what does that got to do with us?"
Q: So did the two of you have a loud
argument that evening?
A: It wasn't loud, because she went to bed
immediately. She said something. I said, "Why are
you pissed at me about this? That's your friend you
brought back here. I didn't bring her back here. She
talks to who she wants to talk to."
Q: Was that the extent of the evening?
A: Yes.
Q: Of the incident, I mean.
A: Yeah. We were home, and she had just
made--warmed up some pasta for me and then--
Q: Now, you did attend the opening of the
Harley-Davidson--
A: Yes.
Q: --Cafe. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were at a table with Resnick,
Christian and Nicole?
A: I don't know if we ever got a table, but
we may have at one point sat down. The place was like
sardines, it was so packed.
Q: And did you consume cocaine that evening?
A: No.
Q: Did you take cocaine in front of Nicole,
Faye--
A: No.
Q: --or Christian?
A: Absolutely not.
Q: Did any of them take cocaine?
A: I didn't observe anybody taking cocaine.
Q: Okay. And what about at your apartment
that evening or the next evening? Did you
A: Absolutely not.
Q: --take cocaine there?
A: Absolutely not.
Q: Okay. Was there an incident in which you
had a disagreement or a fight with Nicole at a
restaurant called Toscana's?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall that incident as described
in Faye Resnick's book?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you present there?
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Present there when?
THE WITNESS: The incident--
MR. PETROCELLI: At the incident.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: The incident that she described?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
Q: What's your recollection of the incident?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, he doesn't--
THE WITNESS: I don't think there was an incident. I saw her book. I was surprised at it. But you read the stuff. You see what everybody else there said. Jeez.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So what she said about that is false?
A: Yes.
Q: Miss Resnick also wrote in her book and
testified under oath that you called her on May 2 or
May 3 of 1994 from Puerto Rico or from--No.
Withdrawn.
Miss Resnick testified under oath that
You called her on May 2 or May 3, had a telephone call
with her. Do you recall that?
A: No. Not particularly, no.
Q: She said that in this call you were
ranting and raving about Nicole having made a decision
to leave you while you were in Puerto Rico.
Do you recall discussing that with Faye
Resnick?
A: No.
Q: And in this conversation you told Faye
that you would kill Nicole. Do you recall saying
that?
A: Absolutely not.
Q: Do you recall having any conversation
with Faye Resnick about killing Nicole, even if you
didn't mean it seriously
A: None. Absolutely none, ever.
Q: Did you ever discuss that with Christian
Reichardt?
A: Never.
Q: Did you ever discuss Faye's account of
that with Christian Reichardt?
A: Account of what?
Q: Account of that conversation that I just
described to you.
A: What conversation? There was never a
conversation. So there was never a conversation. I
don't--I don't-
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You have answered the question.
THE WITNESS: No. I don't know. I don't know--I've talked about a few things with Christian, but I don't recall that being any point thing.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you and Faye have a conversation on the telephone around May 2 or May 3 when you were very angry about Nicole and told so to Faye?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: This is '94?
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me. Did I say '93?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You didn't say any year.
MR. PETROCELLI: '94.
THE WITNESS: I don't know about angry. I was concerned about what the heck was going on with Nicole, which I know I had expressed to Faye, and I expressed to the Browns.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Are you saying you think you had a
telephone conversation with Faye Resnick on this time
that you expressed that to her as well?
A: I'm pretty sure, if I spoke to Faye
during this period of time, I would have expressed
that, yes.
Q: Now, this is before you made the decision
to leave Nicole for the last time. Right?
A: Well, when I came back from Puerto Rico,
had made that decision, but Nicole and I had a
conversation, and it went for another week.
Q: Okay. Before you--Well, why did it go
another week, by the way'
A: Because there was a suggestion to date
or, you know, take Wednesdays and Saturdays and see
how that worked, and so--and I was--that's why,
basically. And Nicole was considering going to
therapy but by the end of the week she just--it
just didn'twork.
Q: Oh, she was considering it.
A: Yeah, I told her that I thought she
should try back to whoever she was going to before she
came to ask me to come back in the relationship
because I thought she was as healthy as I had seen her
during that period of time, and I didn't feel that she
was too healthy at this time.
Q: The conversation that you just described
where you asked her to go to therapy was the
conversation on Mother's Day, 1994. Right?
A: That conversation was an extension to
when I first got back from Cabo. That conversation,
it wasn't a suggestion. It was an either/or.
Q: And the Mother's Day conversation.
A: Yeah.
Q: And as of the end of Mother's Day, the
decision was she wasn't going to therapy, and that was
the end of the relationship.
A: Yeah, I think it was either Mother's Day
or, once again, the day after Mother's Day. I don't
recall which night it was.
Q: Now, the prior conversation with Nicole
the week before was where?
A: At her house.
Q: Okay. What was the day of that
conversation?
A: Whatever--the day after I got back from
Cabo.
Q: From Puerto Rico?
A: I mean from Puerto Rico, yes.
Q: You got back for Christian Reichardt's
party. Right?
A: I got back because we had to shoot in
L.A.
Q: But you went to the party, in other
words.
A: Yes.
Q: That party was on April 30, I believe.
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And had you had the conversation
with Nicole that you just mentioned before that
party?
A: No. I think it was the next day.
Q: Okay. And relate that conversation to
Me.
A: Nicole had some concern about why I
wasn't loving, and my words to her was, "I
couldn't"--I didn't think I could do this. I didn't,
know--when I was in Puerto Rico. Nicole was like
having a nervous breakdown. and I had no--I couldn't
understand why. I didn't understand what it was
about, and I was explaining to her that, you know,
"All of this all calling me, saying you're sorry. I
went through weeks talking to you; I didn't know who
was talking to from day to day, and I can't do this."
Q: When Nicole said--she was questioning
you why-
A: Why I wasn't loving her.
Q: You mean at the party?
A: You know, loving. I've always been a
very affectionate person--it was almost a
culmination of some of the whole year. It was just
that I just never fell back in love with her. Even
though I felt I was in love with her acouple of
times, I never really fell back in love with her, and
I thought it would--as I told you before, I thought
before I went to Puerto Rico was the first time that I
thought it would work, and while I was in Puerto
Rico, I mean, Nicole--her words were was she was
having a nervous breakdown.
Q: Did Nicole describe to you when you came
back to Los Angeles what her problems were while you
were in Puerto Rico?
A: No. No. Whatever--evidently there
was--something was going on.
Q: Did she tell you that whatever it was,
she was over it?
A: Basically. She laid some of it off on
Cora and some of it off on Faye.
Q: What did she lay off on Cora?
A: That Cora was--something was going on
with Cora and Ron Fishman; Ron had moved out, and Faye
was messing with drugs.
Q: So her preoccupation with their problems
was causing her a lot of stress in her life?
A: I don't know.
Q: Is that what she was telling you.?
A: That's what she told me, yes.
Q: And did you find that a reasonable
explanation-
A: No.
Q: --for her behavior?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: Why. Why should whatever was happening
to these women affect the way her and I was with each
other.
Q: And you told her that
A: Yes.
Q: Now, during that week when you got back
and went to Reichardt's party and the Mother's Day
decision not to see her anymore, okay, you had
conversations with Faye Resnick on the phone. Right?-
A: Earlier in--maybe, you know. I don't
totally recall, but I knew I had spoken to Faye a few
times because Faye--yeah, I had spoke to Faye a few
times, yes.
Q: Apart from expressing to Faye your
concerns over Nicole, did you ever express or vent any
anger about Nicole?
A: No, not any anger, not to the degree that
you mentioned earlier, no.
Q: Are you aware that Christian Reichardt
told the LAPD or the District Attorney's Office,
whoever interviewed him, that Faye told him you told
Faye you were going to kill Nicole?
A: I think I read that somewhere.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. It doesn't matter.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You read that someplace?
A: I'm sure I did.
Q: Did you ever talk to Christian Reichardt
about his conversation with Faye Resnick to that
effect?
A: No.
Q: Did you know that he went on national television and said the same thing?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, do you know that he did so? Because my next question is going to be: Did you talk about it?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You just asked him if he talked about it, and it's irrelevant and-
MR. PETROCELLI: I am trying to jog his recollection.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's irrelevant, what he saw on television.
MR. PETROCELLI: No, but it might refresh his recollection as to whether he talked with Reichardt about it.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Did you talk to Reichardt? You can answer that.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: No?
A: No.
Q: No. We have to do a tape change right here.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Why don't we do a lunch change?
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 1 of Volume VI. The time is approximately 12:05, and we are off the record. (At the hour of 12:05 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:05 p.m.) (At the hour of 1:24 p.m., the deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present, with the exception of Fredric Goldman.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 1:24. This is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume VI. EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Over the lunch break I refreshed my
memory a bit on this Toscana incident, Mr. Simpson.
Do you know a man named Alessandro?
A: I met him, yes.
Q: And did you see him at Toscana's the
evening you were there with Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: He walked into the restaurant and you
spoke to him that evening?
A: No.
Q: Did he walk up to the table?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any words with him at all?
A: No.
Q: Did you threaten him?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk about him?
A: Nicole did.
Q: What did she say to you about him?
A: I think they were talking about the whole
table. Her and one of the other girls was talking
about something he had done at one of her parties.
Q: That's the best you can recall?
A: Yeah. They were unhappy with him. He
had done something at some affair Nicole had at her
house, and Nicole was very unhappy with it.
Q: And you had no conflict with him that
evening?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Now, at the first or second
session of this deposition you mentioned an incident
involving Nicole in January of 1994.
A: Yes.
Q: What was that incident?
A: Nicole--they were leaving a bar, and I
gather--I'm only saying what Nicole told me--at
some point Faye was serving or something, and when
Nicole was leaning over to ingest it, she ran into the
car in front of her.
Q: Oh, in the car Nicole was driving?
A: Yes.
Q: And Nicole leaned over to ingest some
alcohol?
A: No.
Q: Was it drugs?
A: Yes.
Q: Cocaine?
A: Yes.
Q: And she smashed into the car?
A: In front of her, yes.
Q: And what car was Nicole driving?
A: Her Ferrari.
Q: And was the car damaged?
A: Very bad.
Q: How did you find out about this?
A: Nicole called me.
Q: That evening?
A: I believe it was the next day. Within 24
hours we talked. I asked her how she was doing, and
she started crying. She thought she was gonna get in
trouble.
Q: What happened to the car in front that it
hit?
A: I don't know. I don't know.
Q: Did you take care of this situation for
her?
A: No. Her concern was they lied to the
police, and she thought she'd get caught.
Q: Oh, she switched seats with Faye?
A: No. When they got out and the police
came, Nicole thought her license was suspended, and
she said she had been drinking, and Faye said she
could handle it and Faye claimed she was driving, and
Nicole thought that one of the people when they left
would--I guess the police was talking to other
people when they drove off, when they left with the
tow truck, and Nicole thought one of these people
would say that she was driving.
Q: Did that ever happen?
A: I don't think so. Faye had some lawyer
who evidently helped them out in these type of things,
and Faye got this lawyer involved.
Q: Did you have to pay for anything?
A: No.
Q: Who paid for the repair of the--
A: I don't know--
Q: --car?
A: --Nicole's business.
Probably her insurance.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay. You got to wait until he finishes the question.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Were you ever aware of any tires on
Nicole's cars being slashed or cut?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever hear about that?
A: No.
Q: Do you know how much it cost on this
property damage to the other car?
A: The other car, no. I know Nicole told me
hers was--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't ask you anything about Nicole's car.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I don't know. I didn't get involved. Other than saying I would have dinner with the lawyer, I didn't get involved.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And what about Nicole's car? How much
was that?
A: I believe she told me in the neighborhood
of S20,000.
Q: And the insurance company paid for it?
A: I believe so. yes.
Q: And the drugs were never disclosed to the
A: police to your knowledge?
A: To my knowledge. no.
Q: Faye said she had been drinking?
A: I don't know what she said, but Nicole
talked constantly about how Faye was able to go
through all the tests, and she said, "I could have
never done that."
Q: Now. did you have any concern about this
incident after it was related to you?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was that?
A: I was real upset with Nicole. She didn't
want anybody to know, and I--I was very upset with
her.
Q: What were you upset about? That she had
taken cocaine?
A: Just the whole thing. It just seemed as
if things were happening that should not have been
happening, and I was taking to her quite extensively
during this period of time about drinking.
Q: Did she in your estimation cut down on the drinking thereafter?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You mean--
MR. PETROCELLI: After this incident.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay. I know after, but for the whole period of time until the murder?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, until her murder.
THE WITNESS: I don't think so, because I know it was a constant concern that I mentioned to the Browns, Lou and Judy, from time to time.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Even during your marriage, you mean?
A: No. no. This is--all of this is after,
you know, after we had split.
Q: And when--when you got back together
in, let's say, May of '93, Mother's Day of '93,
thereabouts, did you start noticing this excessive
drinking?
A: Almost immediately.
Q: Also drug use, too?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see Nicole during that
period of time, May of '93 till You broke up in the
following year, use cocaine?
A: No.
Q: Did you know whether she was doing so
other than this one incident in January of '94?
A: Other than what she told me.
Q: And what was she telling you in this
regard?
A: Well, the '93 October 911 call, that's
essentially one of the major things that I was--I
had found out that things were going on, and that was
essentially what I was yelling about.
Q: But that wasn't about drug use by Nicole.
A: Yes.
Q: In what sense?
A: In the sense that I was told that day
about them all doing drugs at a place called the
Monkey Bar.
Q: Other than that October 25, '93 incident
and the January car crash incident, did Nicole relate
to you any other incidents of drug use by her?
A: No.
Q: And you witnessed firsthand excessive
drinking by her?
A: What I thought was, yes.
Q: And you talked to her about it?
A: Well, you know, I didn't--I may have
mentioned it to her--I did mention it to her a few
times, but I didn't want to be getting on her, so I
talked to other people in hopes they would talk
to her.
Q: And the other people were Judy and Lou
Brown?
A: And Faye Resnick, for that matter.
Q: When did you talk to the Browns about this?
A: I mentioned it numerous times: "Watch
how much she's drinking. Watch out the drinks that
she takes."
Q: And you mentioned it to them more than
one occasion?
A: Yes.
Q: From May of '93 to May of '94?
A: I can't say exactly May '93 to May of
'94--
Q: Well, that's the period of your
reconciliation.
A: Yeah. Within that time period. I don't
know when it started or when it ended. I do know that
in my last few conversations with Judy, it was the--
my major focus on that and who she was running around
with.
Q: Okay. Let me ask you--well, first of
all, what was their reaction to the expressions of
your concern about Nicole's excessive drinking?
A: Well, it was hard to have a reaction
because--you'd have to ask them what their reaction
was.
Q: In other words, did they agree with you?
Did they say, "You're right, O.J., but I can't do
anything about it," or did they disagree with you?
What did they say?
A: Well, because I kept saying, "Watch her
when we go out." I mean, I remember at Lou's--gave
a party for Lou one night at a restaurant and I was
saying, "Watch how much she drinks."
Q: Okay. Now, you talked about some of the
last conversations that you had with Judy. When did
those occur?
A: The last?
Q: Yeah.
A: Basically with the concern was when I was
in Puerto Rico.
Q: And again, the concern was you didn't
know why Nicole was acting strangely. Right?
A: Nicole said she felt she was having a
nervous breakdown, and she told me that, and then Judy
and I had conversations, and Judy had concerns also
when I was speaking to Judy.
Q: Did you consider coming back from Puerto
Rico--
A: No.
Q: --to address the problem?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I was working, and I was under a
contract, and Nicole's an adult.
Q: Did you see if she could get some medical
help?
A: I asked her to. I kept telling her I
wanted her to go to therapy, and I mentioned about her
drinking.
Q: Did she say that one of the things that
was stressing her out was you?
A: At that time, no.
Q: Her relationship with you?
A: At that time, no.
Q: Later on she tell you that?
A: No.
Q: You said "At that time." That suggests
to me that some other time she told you?
A: Yes. When we split originally.
Q: No, I am now talking about April '94 when
you were in Puerto Rico and she is telling you she's
having a nervous breakdown.
A: Yeah, she was just--I was just--from
day to day she was--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: There is no question. He is just telling you where his--directing your attention to.
MR. PETROCELLI: Exactly.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And my question to you is whether in any
of the conversations then or thereafter about her
problem, this nervous breakdown problem, that there
was any concern expressed by her that you were the
cause of this.
A: No.
Q: That it had something to do with you.
A: No. She couldn't pinpoint what it was,
she said.
Q: You mentioned Cora, and you mentioned Faye and her concern with their problems. Does anything else come to mind?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: "Anything else come to mind." Could you being more expansive?
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, he understands what I mean.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, I--No, don't answer that. That question is very overbroad.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What I am trying to get you to tell me as
expansively as possible is what she told you was the
cause, other than her concern over Cora and Faye,
which you yourself indicated shouldn't have led to
this kind of problem.
A: The problem was she couldn't say. She
didn't know. And when I would say, "What's wrong,"
she couldn't say.
"I don't know," is what she'd say.
Q: Did you say, "Is it me?"
A: Numerous times. I was the easiest
problem she had, because if she didn't want to be with
me, I didn't want to be with her, you know, so I
wasn't a major problem for her.
Q: But she said it was not you.
A: She didn't say that. She said, "It's
just everything." She didn't know. And that's when I
constantly tried to get her to go to therapy again.
Q: She didn't know. So as far as you know, then, it might have concerned you, but she didn't know. Right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In other words, she didn't rule out the possibility that it concerned you. Is that right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's--
THE WITNESS: She didn't know, so I don't know what she ruled in or out.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. She didn't know.
Did you suggest any modification in your
relationship with her in order to alleviate the
problem? This is in Puerto Rico.
A: No.
Q: Okay. Now going back to Judy, you last
spoke to Judy when?
A: I don't know.
Q: Not at the recital. Beforehand.
A: I don't know. Beginning of May, I would
say.
Q: And you said the major focus was on
Nicole's problems?
A: Yeah. Nicole and that we were going our
separate ways and Nicole. What--I thought she
needed to get back to therapy and stop drinking and
stop running around with who she was running around
with.
Q: And what did Judy say to you?
A: Judy didn't like who she was running
around with either.
Q: You mean girlfriends?
A: Yeah.
Q: Faye Resnick?
A: Ask Judy.
Q: Who did you mean?
A: I just meant everything. I didn't know
who she was running around with. I didn't know really
who she was running around with, so I didn't know. I
just knew the whole scene wasn't a positive scene, and
from what I can gather, it was the same scene that she
was in when she came back to me and told me she hated
what was going on in her life. So from what I was--
gathered. she was going to the same places and hanging
around the same people.
Q: Now, did Judy Brown tell you that she
agreed or disagreed with what you were saying?
A: She agreed something was wrong because
she had some--some--she couldn't get anything out
of Nicole. I guess--yeah, Judy was concerned. You
got to ask Judy. Judy was concerned.
Q: Did Judy tell you that she also was
trying to find out from Nicole what the problem was?
A: She said she wouldn't talk. I think
Nicole hung up on her at one time, and Judy at one
point while I was in Puerto Rico, the last week I was
in Puerto Rico, made a comment to the effect that she
had spoken to Nicole one day, and the next day Nicole
was attributing things to Judy that Judy hadn't said
the day before. Something in that vein.
Q: Did there come a time when you perceived
that Nicole stopped acting in this sort of irrational
way you're describing?
A: You have to ask that again. I don't
quite understand it.
Q: From the time that you first started
experiencing these problems with her behavior while I
you were in Puerto Rico--
A: Yeah.
Q: --beginning with that time, did there
come a time when you saw that there had been
improvement and that she had stopped exhibiting these
problems?
A: From the time I got home, everything
seemed--even before I came home, she called. I
mean, we talked and she apologized for the way she was
acting. She picked me up at the airport. She seemed
totally normal.
The following Sunday, which was the night
before Mother's Day, she in front of me almost had a
nervous breakdown. I mean, she was, "Look at me,' she
was saying, and that was when I basically said, "This
is not gonna work."
Q: And from that point on did you observe
that her behavior, whether it was-
A: I didn't see--
Q: --whether it was problematic--
A: I saw her that week at dinner once or
twice. I talked to her, because now we weren't
together, so I could talk to her more fully about it,
and I talked to her a lot about it the following week
when she called me when she had double pneumonia, and
I used that as a, "See? See, I told you so. Whatever
you're doing, you got to stop doing."
Q: And from that point on she seemed okay to
you?
A: I didn't hardly--I didn't see her much
from that point on. Until she called me in--later
in the month yelling at me, she seemed like Nicole,
the times that I saw her.
Q: Seemed like she--in other words, she
was okay.
A: Yeah. We--we--yeah, she was okay,
yeah.
Q: Now, tell me about this incident and you
mentioned it on your videotape, when Nicole called you
and was very upset with you because Faye Resnick was
going to an affair. What was the affair?
A: It was going to be the Cedars Child--
you know, it was a big affair that they have at Cedars
Hospital, raise money for the birth defects. I was
one of the, you know, founders of it, and I was the
guy who was in charge of getting all athletes at its
inception, and we may have been going into the eighth,
ninth, tenth year, and so that was the affair.
Q: And describe the argument you had with
Nicole.
A: It wasn't really an argument. She called
me and just started yelling at me.
Q: For no reason?
A: I felt for no reason.
Q: What did she say?
A: To stay away from her F-ing friends. And
I said, "What are you talking about?"
And she said, "You invited Faye and
Christian to this thing, and I don't want you"--"I
don't want you hanging around my friends."
And I said, "I didn't invite Faye
anywhere. Faye invited herself."
And she says, "But I don't want you
hanging around my friends."
And I think I said to her, "What are you
talking about? I never told you who to hang around
with. You"--and I may have made--I don't know
what I said. But in any event, she hung up, and then
I called Christian and Faye.
Q: Did you go to the event?
A: I was in jail.
Q: Oh, this was an event scheduled for later
in June?
A: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: Had you made plans with Christian and
Faye?
A: I had invited--See, the previous
year--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Go ahead. You know.
THE WITNESS: I had made plans with Christian, and Faye wanted to know why she wasn't invited and gave a good reason why she wanted to go, and I said, "Well, sure, I don't have a problem with it."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What was the reason?
A: That she--"We don't take sides. We
love you. We love Nicole. I want to get to know
Paula. I want to get to know whoever Nicole goes out
with. When our friends split up, we don't take sides,
which has always been my attitude." That is what she
said to me.
Q: And you had no problem with that. Right?
A: No. I mean, I didn't invite her or Cora
because I was going to be with Paula.
Q: So the way you left it then--
A: Was fine.
Q: --is fine.
You were going to go with Paula,
Christian and Faye, and was Cora going with Ron
Fishman?
A: No. Ron and his son was going, and I had
to fill up my table. It was a table of 12.
Q: But Nicole wasn't included. Right?
A: Nicole and I wasn't dating. No, I was
dating Paula.
Q: What is the date of this conversation
with Nicole?
A: I don't know. It was after the 22nd but
I believe before the end of the month. So it's
sometime--sometime in the latter part of May.
Q: Is this the last argument you had with
her?
A: I believe it was, yeah. Yeah, it was the
last--other than tickets and stuff, it was the last,
yeah.
Q: Did you call her back?
A: I don't think it was--I tried to call
her back, but she had her phone off the hook, and I
left a message for her.
Q: Where?
A: The next day.
Q: Oh, on her machine?
A: Yes.
Q: What was your message?
A: Told her I thought she was totally out of
line. I told her that we had--I said, "We split up.
We went our separate ways. I was there for you when
you were sick. I thought everything was going good.
You are totally out of line, what you did. You need
to talk to your friend Faye." And I said, "You need
to look at your own actions when you and I were split
before. You went a little further than just invited
my friends out," and that was it.
Q: You mean she had romantic relations with
your friends.
A: Yes.
Q: Did she ever respond to that message,
Mr. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Now, you testified earlier on in
the deposition that you had a dinner with her and
Sydney and Justin at Bundy around the 24th of May.
A: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: Do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: Was this argument with Nicole before or
after that dinner?
A: After.
Q: It was after.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, after you took care of Nicole
when she had was it double pneumonia?
A: Yeah.
Q: Was there some still hope in your mind
that maybe things would work out?
A: No.
Q: You were just doing it to get her
better. Right?
A: We--yeah. Yeah.
Q: Weren't you delivering roses to the
house?
A: On her birthday I might have, but I don't
think so. I think I brought her a cake and a
cigarette lighter.
Q: Did you have any flowers sent to the
house?
A: I did on the--I may have on the 27th,
so it would have been a little after the--I may
have--oh, no. I may have on the 24th or the 27th.
I may have.
Q: For what purpose?
A: That was what I and her always--No, I
didn't. I didn't. That would have been the next
month I was gonna do that, so I don't think I did.
Q: What was the purpose that you--
A: Unless Sydney was graduating or
something, yeah.
Q: What was the purpose for which you would
exchange flowers that time of year?
A: That's when we first met, and it would
have been June 27. I brought flowers to her when she
had a pneumonia. I know that.
Q: Once?
A: I believe so, but . . . You know.
Q: Was there any expression by you to her
that you wanted to get back together?
A: No. The minute I started dating Paula,
that was that.
Q: When you saw her at the airport that
night.
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you give Nicole any gifts during the
month of May other than the cigarette lighter and the
bracelet?
A: No.
Q: You brought her no gifts?
A: No.
Q: When Nicole returned the bracelet, she
also returned some earrings?
A: No. I asked for the earrings.
Q: Why did you ask for them back?
A: Because she kept the check.
Q: What check?
A: The insurance check.
Q: Why was there an insurance check?
A: Because she somehow lost these earrings
that I had made for her before, and when the insurance
check came, I signed it, and we sent it to her, and
I--we were replacing the earrings, and evidently
when the guy delivered the earrings to her, she never
gave him the money; and for some reason my office,
when the guy billed my office, they sent a check, so
she couldn't keep the earrings and the check.
Q: How much was the check?
A: I think the check was a little less than
what the earrings cost, so the check may have been
$7,500, $8,000.
Q: How did you get the earrings back?
A: I asked for them.
Q: And did you pick them up in person?
A: We were discussing some things at her
house, and it was when she brought up the fact that
she didn't think I bought these--this bracelet for
her and--
Q: How did she figure that out?
A: Because it didn't go with anything I've
ever bought her, and it was kind of out of the blue.
And during that conversation she mentioned how she's
gotten used to the TV in the bedroom; she wasn't a big
person on that, and wanted to know could she keep the
TV I had bought for me in the bedroom that had the
earphones on it, because I watch TV throughout the
night, and a few other items, and I said, "Since we're
making up, you owe me X amount of dollars." And she
didn't have it and she gave me the earrings.
She said, "Well, you have to take the
earrings because I don't have the money."
Q: Do you know why she didn't have the
money?
A: I don't know. I know she was having
some--at that particular time she had loaned some
family--from what she said, she had loaned some
family members some money, and--I don't know.
Outside of that, I don't know.
Q: How much had she loaned?
A: I don't know. I thought she said 10,000
or something to--
Q: To whom?
A: I believe she said Lou.
Q: So, she said she was short on money?
A: She didn't say that. She was just --I
know money was a--came up in the conversation
because she didn't have the money to pay me, to give
me the money back for the check.
Q: Okay. Now, did she give you the earrings
back the same time she gave you the bracelet back?
A: Yes.
Q: And was that on this 24th when you were
over there for dinner?
A: Yeah. I believe it may have been earlier
than that. It may have been the 2--it may have
been on the 22nd. I believe it was like on--
whenever I got--I think it was--I'm not a hundred
percent sure of this, but I think it was like on the
22nd. I think it was the night of the picnic at my
house. But it could have been a day after or
something, because I don't believe--
Q: Was she upset with you when she returned
the bracelet and the earrings?
A: No. She was--she--It had bothered
her because she really, really loved the earrings, so
that bothered her, but I was gonna give them back to
her anyway, so...
Q: you were planning to give them back?
A: Yes.
Q: At what point?
A: The next month when our anniversary had
come.
Q: Why didn't you let her keep them at the
time?
A: Well, because then I wouldn't have to buy
her anything at our anniversary.
Q: Did you buy her a present for your
anniversary in 1992 when you were split up in June and
you had already met Paula?
A: I think I gave her--I sent her flowers
for sure, and I think what--I'm sure I sent her
something. Not what--something, maybe a Swiss Army
watch or something. I'm not a--but I know I sent
her something. I know that specifically.
Q: Were you embarrassed or shamed at all
about the breakup of your relationship again?
A: Shamed and embarrassed?
Q: Yeah.
A: No. No. You know what it was, it was a
relief, because I felt I was working too hard.
Q: At the relationship?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: So you felt no sense of public
embarrassments?
A: Not at all.
Q: Humiliation?
A: No.
Q: Shame?
A: No. That's why I think I was happy --I
was happy to move on.
Q: And were you--
A: And I was proud of the fact that we
seemed to be getting along despite it. You know,
anyone who saw us together knows next two, three--
two weeks at least, almost three weeks, saw two people
who really got along, and even though they had split,
really got along.
Q: Did you tell any of your close friends
that you were going to break up with Nicole at or
around the time that you did?
A: No, but all of my close friends knew I
had.
Q: They did?
A: Yeah.
Q: After the fact, you mean.
A: Yeah.
Q: You mean you told them that you had
broken up with Nicole.
A: I told them it was--yeah, because they
saw Paula.
Q: Did you tell them that you had left her
or she had left you?
A: That we split up, you know.
Q: Did you tell them the circumstances?
A: It was none of their business.
Q: Did you tell them the reasons?
A: I think some of my close friends knew
already because I just--
Q: Who would they be?
A: Allen Austin would have known because I'm
sure I talked about it with Allen Austin.
Q: Anyone else?
A: I don't know. It's not something--you
know, my close friends are--it's not something you
talk about. You play golf, but on a golf course, you
know, everybody talks about whatever they talk about.
Q: Did you tell Cowlings this, too?
A: you know, you got to understand, I didn't
see a lot of A.C. but possibly. Cathy Randa, for
sure. Arnelle for sure. but it was somewhat abrupt.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: OJ., you don't owe him an explanation.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Just answer his questions.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: The breakup was abrupt. That's what
you're saying. Right?
A: Somewhat. Somewhat, yeah.
Q: By the time of Nicole's death, did all of
your close friends and family know that you had split
up with her?
A: Yes.
Q: You had already told your mother and your
sisters?
A: I don't know if I specifically called
them to say it. I don't know if I ever thought of
that, but anybody around me, yes.
Q: Did you know whether Nicole ever did see
a therapist?
A: Don't believe so.
Q: She told you she wouldn't. Right?
A: She didn't want to. She thought it was a
waste of time.
Q: Okay. Do you know if she saw a therapist
named Jennifer Ameli?
A: No.
Q: Ameli.
A: No.
Q: Did you ever hear of her? A-m-e-l-i?
A: Last night.
Q: How did you hear about her last night?
A: I think GERALDO. Somebody told me some
girl was on GERALDO saying something.
Q: Was that the first time you've heard that
name?
A: Yeah.
Q: You ever go to Jennifer Ameli's office on
any occasion?
A: Not to see Jennifer Ameli, no. I
wouldn't know where her office is.
Q: Did you ever confront Nicole in late May
or early June before her death in front of her
therapist's office?
A: I didn't know she had a therapist.
Q: In front of an office building.
A: No.
Q: Did you ever confront her and another
gentleman with her in her Ferrari in late May, early
June?
A: I never saw her with another gentleman in
her Ferrari then.
Q: Or any other vehicle.
A: No, never.
Q: Did you ever stop to talk to Nicole in
late May, early June before her death while she was in
her car?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever call her over while she was
in her car?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever confront her in a parking
lot anywhere?
A: No.
Q: Do you think this Jennifer Ameli's a fraud?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you have any knowledge of that?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
THE WITNESS: I don't know
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. Was Nicole afraid of you?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you that she was
afraid of you?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you that she had fear of you?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: What's the difference? Don't answer that. You answered the question already.
MR. PETROCELLI: You know, it's not appropriate to instruct him just because I asked him a second question that may be similar or the same as the first question.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You know, I've never read "Petrocelli On Evidence" or "Deposition Objections."
MR. PETROCELLI: Probably never will either,
MR. Baker.
MR. BREWER: Good book.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I'll bet it's the shortest book I could ever read, too.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's only shorter than yours.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You sound like Marcia Clark.
MR. PETROCELLI: Now, I'm not going to say anything about that. I don't want my comments to be misconstrued either way.
Q: Anyway, she ever tell you that she was
afraid of you.?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever discuss that subject with
her?
A: No.
Q: Did she--did you ever sense that she
was afraid of you?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever sense that she felt terror
as a result of--
A: No.
Q: --your conduct?
A: No.
Q: Not even in the 911 call on October 25
when you heard her voice?
A: I didn't hear her voice. I didn't know
she was on the phone with the police.
Q: You heard it in court, though. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And did you sense terror in her voice?
A: If I was on the other end of that line,
it would have sounded that way to me, yes.
Q: Did that surprise you when you heard
that?
A: In light of the fact that she left the
room and came down with me--to be in the room with
me, yes, because I knew she wasn't afraid.
Q: Why do you suppose she expressed terror
in her voice if she wasn't afraid?
A: You want me to speculate?
Q: I want you to tell me what you think, Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I think his state of mind is irrelevant relative to that issue.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think so. Let the trial judge decide.
Q: You may answer.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He will when you make the motion. Don't answer it.
MR. PETROCELLI: What was my question?
Q: I would like to know if you have any understanding as to why she expressed terror in that phone call
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: --if you believe she didn't have any.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: His opinions and asking him to speculate
MR. PETROCELLI: He may have a current understanding that's not based on speculation. It's based on some information.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No, he is not going to answer that question. You are not going to argue the case through your argumentative questions.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you think that she was trying to trick the person that she called?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know if Nicole kept any diary in
May or June of '94?
A: Not that I know of.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Let the record reflect that for the about the fourth time,
MR. Kelly and
MR. Petrocelli are whispering to each other.
MR. KELLY: I think it's the first time,
MR. Baker
MR. ROBERT BAKER: First time after lunch, I would agree with that.
MR. PETROCELLI: In the words of Phil Baker, you don't have to give him an explanation.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER:
MR. Kelly, you've never provided us with those documents, have you, and I believe those were the subject of special interrogatories, were they not?
MR. KELLY: I don't think so, but I will check.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You never provided us with anything. No responses.
MR. PETROCELLI: Nor have you.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I've provided you with a lot of objections, the same as you've provided me with.
MR. PETROCELLI: With only objections.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's all you've ever provided me with. But a lot of them; I admit that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Did you want to say something to me John?
MR. KELLY: I dare not, especially in the mike here, or
MR. Baker will be all over me.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Not at all.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Are these her supposed letters or her supposed diary?
MR. PETROCELLI: We will find out what they are.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Well, if we are being denied access to these diaries because of failure to respond to discovery, I don't think it's proper
MR. PETROCELLI: These are documents that you have. You got them from the same place I have them. Okay?
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Where is that?
MR. PETROCELLI: The murder book.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: And what are they?
MR. PETROCELLI: They are documents in the murder book. That's all.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: You won't describe them, but you are telling me that I have them.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not going to debate this now. I am going to try and ask some questions. You still haven't responded to my numerous requests to have Mr. Simpson produce documents here.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: I haven't gotten responses from your side either,
MR. Petrocelli.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, did you speak to Nicole on
June 3, 1994? Do you recall?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall coming to pick up the kids
at Bundy around 8:30 in the evening?
A: Yes.
Q: And the children wanted to stay with
Nicole because she had let them organize sleepovers at
the last minute.
A: I don't know what the children wanted.
Nicole just told me that she had just organized
something for the kids.
Q: Did she tell you that she would drop them
off first thing in the morning?
A: She might have.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you don't recall, tell him you don't recall.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall. I don't recall.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, you went there to pick up the
kids. Did you leave with the kids?
A: No.
Q: And then you went home. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you get the kids the next day?
A: At some point, yes.
Q: Okay. How did you get them?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Now, the evening before had you had an
argument with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Is that the night that she called you
about going out with her friends June 2?
A: What do you mean, "going out with her
friends'?
Q: Remember before you told me about a
conversation where she was upset with you
A: No, no. This was
Q: --because you were going out with Faye
Resnick and Christian Reichardt?
A: No. This is before then.
Q: Excuse me?
A: This is before then.
Q: The Christian Reichardt-Faye Resnick
situation occurred later. Is that what you're saying?
A: Before. Before this.
Q: Before June 3?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Okay. Now, did you hang up did she
hang up on you on the evening of June 2?
A: I don't recall talking to her on June 2.
Q: Anywhere near June 2 she hang up on you?
A: I don't believe I had talked to her. I
don't--I think I had cut off communications before
then.
Q: Did you say to her when you came to see
her on June 3 at 8:30 p.m. to pick up the kids, "You
hung up on me last night"? Did you say that to her?
A: No.
Q: "You're gonna pay for this, bitch."
A: No.
Q: "You're holding money from the IRS."
A: No.
Q: "You're going to jail, you fucking cunt.'
A: No.
Q: "You think you can do any freaking
thing," or something like that, "You want.
A: No.
Q: "You've got it coming."
A: No.
Q: "I've already talked to my lawyers about
this, bitch."
Did you say any of those things to her?
A: No.
Q: "They'll get you for tax evasion, bitch.
I'll see to it."
A: No.
Q: "You're not going to have a fucking dime
left, bitch."
A: No.
Q: You said none of those things?
A: None of those things.
Q: Do you know whether Sydney had a
girlfriend with her at the house when you went over to
pick up the children?
A: I believe a family had just arrived.
Q: Okay. And do you remember the name--of
Sydney's friend?
A: No.
Q: Do you know the names of any of her
friends around this time?
A: Yeah. The normal friends, yeah.
Q: What about Allegra? Does that ring a
bell?
A: No. But I do know for the period of time
I was there, they were all just outside walking in.
Q: When you were leaving?
A: Yeah, when I drove up and when I left.
Q: They were outside the whole time?
A: Yeah. They were walking in, and she
said, "A friend's here."
Q: Did you meet the friend's parents?
A: No.
Q: The next day do you know whether Nicole
came over to return the children to you, but you were
not home? Did you learn about that?
A: I don't know.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: --Return the children to
[him]?
A: I don t know
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Bring the children to you.
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you recall whether on the weekend
before June 3 around May 28, 1994, you told Nicole
that you could not take the kids that weekend?
A: I--possibly. I don't know
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you don't recall
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you tell Nicole that even though you
were in town over the weekend?
A: I don't think I was in town that weekend.
Q: On May 22 did Nicole tell you that she
was officially splitting up with you?
A: No. We had already split up.
Q: Did she tell you on May22, which is a
Sunday, that you and she were going back to every
other weekend?
A: No, I don't recall that at all.
Q: Okay. Did she say that she needed rest
and that you were gone too much?
A: On 22? No. I think she was more into
me, but I was not amenable.
Q: Were you gone the last four weekends
prior to May 22; out of town, that is?
A: I don't--I may have been. But I
hosted--no. I may--I'm not
MR. PETROCELLI: Is that a calendar,
MR. Baker?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah, it's a calendar.You can check it out if you want.
MR. PETROCELLI: I would like to.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: See, it says "May 1994"? You can put up any date you want on them.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's pretty good.
THE WITNESS: Does it say that?
MR. PETROCELLI: My respect for you is growing by the minute. I'm impressed.
MR. KELLY: There are no answers on that, are there?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I'm typing them in.
MR. LEONARD: The question is--
MR. PETROCELLI: It says, "Don't answer that."
THE WITNESS: It would be difficult because two of those four weekends--
MR. KELLY: "I don't remember."
THE WITNESS: It would be difficult to be away those previous four weekends because two of those four weekends I spent with Nicole and the kids. One of those four weekends, the weekend--two weekends before that I spent with Lou Brown, Nicole and the kids, and the weekend before that was the weekend I returned from Puerto Rico and I spent with Nicole and the kids. So it couldn't have been. That's impossible.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, let me hand you out a document and
ask you if you know anything about it.
A: What am I supposed to--
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me mark this as Exhibit 86.
THE WITNESS: Okay. So the answer is no.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: There is no--
THE WITNESS: --no, I wasn't out of town the four previous weekends, unless you count being in Laguna with Nicole and the kids out of town one of those weekends.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Can you mark that as the next exhibit in order.
[Plaintiffs' Exhibit 86 was marked for identification by the reporter and attached hereto.]
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, do you recognize this
handwriting on Exhibit 86?
A: Not really, but--not really.
Q: Does it appear to be Nicole's
handwriting?
A: I don't really recognize it to be, but it
could be.
Q: Could you turn the pages?
A: Uh-huh. To what page?
Q: Just flip the pages and see if you
believe this is in Nicole's handwriting.
A: It looks a lot like her handwriting, yes.
Q: Okay. Now, do you know whether she was
keeping notes of events in her life
A: No.
Q: --during this period of time?
A: No.
Q: May of '94?
A: No.
Q: Do you know why she would write down the
things that I just read you on a piece of paper?
A: Inaccurately? No.
Q: Yeah. Why she would write them down if
they were false?
A: Well, they're obviously--when you
mentioned those four weekends out of town, that's
false, so I have no idea.
Q: But all the other things that I read to
you were false also. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: All of the vile things that she
attributed to you.
A: Yes.
Q: And do you have any--any understanding
as to why Nicole Brown in or about June 3 of 1994
would be writing down such things about you that were
untrue?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Did you ever know her to do something
like that in the past?
A: I knew she would say things, because as I
mentioned, Judy and I had that conversation before I
left Puerto Rico, that were not true. I wasn't aware
of any of her writings at that time.
Q: What do you mean, "Judy and I had that
conversation before I left Puerto Rico, that were not
true"? I didn't follow our last answer?
A: As I said to you earlier, Judy made a
comment in one week when I was in Puerto Rico that she
had spoke to Nicole one day and, O.J.--the next day
she spoke to her, Nicole attributed things to Judy
that Judy had not said in the previous conversation
the day before.
Q: I see. Did you know Nicole to have a
very vivid imagination?
A: She was great with the kids, so, yeah,
she was good. She was good at making up games and,
you know, writing stories with the kids. So, yes, she
was pretty good at that.
Q: And had she ever to your knowledge made
up things about you in the past?
A: Yes.
Q: You mentioned earlier in your deposition
that she did so in connection with the divorce
proceeding to get you to tear up the prenuptial.
Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And though you also said you didn't see
anything that she wrote
A: No.
Q: --she just told you that they had told
her to say things. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Other than that incident, did you know
her to make up things about you that were not true?
A: In what context? I don't--
Q: In any context.
A: We--in any context.
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: When?
A: Often when you have an argument and the
next time you talk, she'd say, "You said this."
And I said, "That's not what I said."
"You said this."
I mean, you know, like most
relationships, I would imagine.
Q: But you would do the same thing. Right?
A: She would say the same thing to me that I
would say to her.
Q: All right. So in other words, you didn't
view that as unusual or abnormal, did you?
A: No.
Q: Okay. But in terms of what I just showed you, you would view that as highly unusual. Right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, you don't have to-- characterize it any way you want.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you think that--is this ordinary
behavior for Nicole, as you know her for 17 years, to
write things like this about you of this nature that
are completely false?
A: Her--all her actions were unusual and
un--and not like the Nicole I knew in the last few
years of her life. Many of them were, and that's why
I had a concern,and I expressed those concerns to
both Judy Brown and Lou Brown.
Q: Well, the only thing you've said so far
that you expressed to Judy and Lou Brown were
drinking.
A: Yes.
Q: What--did you express anything else to
them about her highly unusual behavior over the last
couple of years of her life?
A: Yes. The choice of people that she ran
around with. Some of the things that transpired
during that period of time, yes, I expressed my
concerns about those things.
(Fredric Goldman enters the deposition.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you think Nicole was mentally ill in
May of 1994?
A: No. I'll use her words: She seemed to
be lost.
Q: Okay. But at no time did you attempt to
get the children taken away from her. Right?
A: No. She's a great mother. Great mother
at all times.
Q: And you thought at all times that she was
emotionally and mentally fit to care for the
children. Right?
A: Very much so.
Q: Up to the last day of her life. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: It is true you were having a dispute with
her about the IRS at this time.
A: No.
Q: That's not true either?
A: No. I just wanted her to change
addresses.
Q: Have you ever seen this document before?
A: I believe I may have.
Q: When?
A: When I was in jail.
Q: How did you first come across it?
A: I don't know. I think they just brought
all kinda discovery in, and I don't recall
specifically seeing this, but it doesn't seem unusual
to me to see this at this point.
Q: And when you--after you saw it, did you talk to anybody other than lawyers about it?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Why not? I asked him other than lawyers.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Oh, I apologize.
MR. KELLY: We ask the tough questions when you're talking to
MR. Leonard.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't--I know I didn't talk to anybody. If I talked to my lawyers about these things specifically, they'd have been the only people I talked to about it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: For example, Cora Fishman, have you ever
spoken to her about why Nicole was writing stuff like
this--
A: No.
Q: --the last month of her life?
A: No.
Q: Or Christian?
A: No.
Q: Are you curious to know?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: On the weekend of May 28th--you can look at
MR. Baker's electronic calendar--Nicole
writes in here that you said you couldn't take the
kids that weekend, but they did spend the night Friday
and Monday with you. Is that true?
A: No. Another inaccuracy in these
letters. Another non-truth. I should say, in these
letters.
Q: Okay. It is not true that the kids spent
the night Friday and then again Monday on Memorial
Day?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you were in Palm Springs?
A: That's correct.
Q: Were the children with you?
A: No.
Q: Not at all on that trip?
A: No.
Q: On Saturday and Sunday Nicole says that they were--the children were with her. Was that true?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, it says in the document, Exhibit 86--
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, that's what I mean,
MR. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that true?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You can't get your foundation from your own questions,
MR. Petrocelli.
THE WITNESS: Pardon me?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I--
MR. PETROCELLI: I can try.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I've been overruled. You can.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Were the children with Nicole on Saturday
and Sunday?
A: I was out of town. I have no idea where
they were.
Q: Do you know from when you saw them again
that they saw THE FLINTSTONES and went to play
miniature golf?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether you had the children
the weekend before Memorial Day weekend?
A: Certainly--certainly for Sunday, I
certainly had them. Wait. Let me--yeah, certainly
Sunday. I don't recall if--certainly Sunday, I
know. I don't think I was in town Friday or Saturday.
Q: Okay. Can you turn the page?
A: Which page?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I assume we are going to the--
THE WITNESS: Which page?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: --to June 4th?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
Q: The last page, Mr. Simpson, June 4th. This is Exhibit 86. Did the children get to your house around 1:00 p.m. on June 4? What is that,
MR. Baker, Saturday?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It is.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Saturday.
A: That--they could have, yes.
Q: Did they spend the evening with you on
June 4?
A: They could have. I'm not sure.
Q: Why are you not sure?
A: Because I'm not sure. I knew they were
with me on Sunday the 5th, and some parts of me feel
that Nicole brought them over Sunday, the 5th. Matter
of fact, I'm almost a hundred percent sure she did
because Justin had dirtied up his clothes, and Paula
took him to Rudnick's or someplace to get him new
clothes to go to an affair with us.
Q: When did you go to that affair?
A: That Sunday, the 5th.
Q: That was the Pediatric AIDS event?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you and the kids and Kato and
his daughter went out to dinner at Sizzler?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that Sunday evening?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Could you turn back now to two pages earlier? Do you see the entry where it says "Friday, April 30"?
MR. Baker, is that--April 30, 1994, is that a Friday?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Saturday, according to this.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know if you had the weekends--do
you know whether you picked up the kids for the
weekend from school the last weekend in April?
A: I don't think so. I think Nicole and
I--Nicole and I were--I think--April what? Show
me.
Is this April?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah, that's April of '94. The 30th is a Saturday, not a Friday.
MR. PETROCELLI: She might be referring to '93 here.
Q: Does that ring a bell?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Very good.
THE WITNESS: What, '93?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah. I'm trying to--
A: I don't know. '93, I don't know what I
was doing in April of '93.
Q: Well, did you take the kids to Vegas on a
trip in 1993?
A: Yes. Yes. But I think that wasn't April
30th.
Q: April 2?
A: Yes.
Q: That was 1993. Correct?
A: That was 1993.
Q: And was Paula on that trip with you?
A: Paula met us there.
Q: Okay. And you went with the two kids,
and Paula met you there. Right?
A: Two kids and Arnelle, and Paula met us
there.
Q: Okay. Can you turn to , which
is two pages before? Okay?
In the first part of this document there
is an entry about you picked up the kids for Justin's
"1st Wednesday visitation." Do you know what that
refers to?
A: At the top of the thing?
Q: Yeah.
A: I think once I got back from--Yes, I do
know what that refers to.
Q: What does that refer to?
A: I think once I got back from Buffalo--I
mean from New York that year--
Q: What year?
A: This would have been '93.
Q: Okay.
A: --I--we made out in arrangement that
every other weekend I would get the kids, and I had
the option on Wednesdays to take them from
4:00 o'clock to 8:00 o'clock or something like that.
Q: And again, this is before you attempted
your reconciliation. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And it says below the first entry, "He
will take the kids Friday noon to P.S." What does
that mean? Do you know?
A: I'm sure it's Palm Springs.
Q: Did you used to have Cathy Randa pick up
the kids?
A: I think she may have once or twice.
Q: Okay. Did that bother Nicole?
A: I don't know. She never said anything to
me.
Q: And A.C., did he used to pick up the
children, too?
A: Not from school. Not normally from
school.
Q: From Nicole's house?
A: During this period of time I was avoiding
Nicole. I don't think so. I think--I know he
brought them to Palm Springs, as this said, for me,
because I was already there, but other than that I
don't really recall A.C. picking--not for me, anyway,
Picking the kids up from school. I'm sure he did for
her once or twice.
Q: Do you recall cancelling the pick-up of
the children on March 10 mentioned in the last entry
here?
A: I don't recall, but if I was out of town,
I would have had to cancel, yes.
This March 10, what day is this?
Q: 1993.
A: Yeah, if I wasn't in town, I probably
did.
Q: Now go back down to the bottom of the
next page, 1880.
A: Yeah.
Q: The entry at the end says, "The rest of
1993 were spent either with me or as family weekends,
hours or days. O.J. and I got back together starting
April 12, 1993."
Was that correct, that you got back
together?
A: No. That's what she wanted but, as I
told you, that's when she had a little problem that I
wouldn't commit.
Q: Was--did you go to Cabo in April of
'93?
A: We had got back from Cabo, and she
assumed that that got us back together, and I told her
it didn't.
Q: Okay. Earlier today I was asking you
about injuries that Nicole sustained and for which she
received medical treatment, and you told me about
Cowlings taking her to St. John's on April 1,1989.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Do you know of any other instances when Nicole
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Did he say April 1?
MR. PETROCELLI: January 1--excuse me-- 1989.
Q: Do you know of any other instances when
Nicole was treated for injuries?
A: Well, one other incident that, once
again, I insisted she go in case there was an injury,
but there wasn't. So there was nothing to treat.
Q: Was that when she fell off a bicycle?
A: That's what she told me, yes.
Q: Okay. And those are the only two times
that you know of when Nicole was treated for injuries?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether she ever
suffered any injuries while she was pregnant?
A: No, I don't know of any injuries she ever
suffered while she was pregnant.
Q: Did you have an argument with her about
her first pregnancy, with Sydney, as to whether or not
she should have the baby?
A: No. I only got married to have kids.
Q: And you had no such argument with respect
to her second pregnancy, with Justin?
A: None at all.
Q: When she was pregnant with Sydney, was
she supposed to have twins?
A: I think she told me that she lost one of
the--that she could have had twins, but one of the
sacs didn't go, something, early on.
Q: Early on in the pregnancy?
A: Yes.
Q: To your knowledge the fetus had not grown
full term?
A: I think from the time she officially knew
she was pregnant that had already happened, from what
she says.
Q: What had already happened?
A: That it could have been, but one of them
didn't hold or something.
Q: Was a second twin born stillborn Do you
know?
A: No. I'm saying even before she knew
officially she was pregnant whatever happened had
happened
Q: Already.
A: Yeah.
Q: So she only carried one fetus.
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Were you in the delivery room with her
for Sydney?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And for Justin?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have an argument with Nicole
about whether you should be in the delivery room for
Justin?
A: Yes.
Q: Relate that.
A: She said I made her too nervous when she
was in the delivery room with Sydney, that I was too
nervous or something, and--but I still did it.
My first wife told me the same thing.
Q: When she was--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He didn't ask you what your first wife told you. Jesus. Right here, look at the color, O.J. It's because of you.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When she was pregnant with Sydney, did
you tell her that you believed she had gained too much
weight?
A: No.
Q: And you never berated her physical
appearances
A: No.
Q: Same with Justin?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever heard that Nicole
complained about you calling her fat during her
pregnancies?
A: After all of this had happened I heard
it. yes
Q: How did you hear that?
A: I think I read it somewhere.
Q: In her own handwritings?
A: No. It may have been in a magazine or a
news--some of the coverage of the trial.
Q: But it wasn't true. Right?
A: That's correct.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Damn, I heard on the news that both of these guys are going to examine today, so you've got to hurry up.
MR. PETROCELLI: You did?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah.
MR. BREWER: That's a bombshell.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's a bombshell.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You have the best lines of these.
MR. PETROCELLI: He saves them. but they're good.
Q: How many times did Nicole hit you in your
relationship?
A: I'd be guessing.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He doesn't want you to guess.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So give me your best estimate.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you have a best estimate.
THE WITNESS: Five or six.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Was one of these the '89 incident?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You've already talked about that.
What were the other incidents?
A: I--two or three of them were after
'89. I believe I documented those. And I think at
some point early in our relationship. When I say
"early," before we got married.
Q: What do you mean, you "documented those"?
A: I would call Cathy whenever something
happened and tell her to write it down and put it in a
file, because that was recommended to me by some
police officer.
Q: When--Who was the police officer?
A: I don't recall, but it was around--
somehow around the '89 thing.
Q: Where are those documents?
A: I don't know.
Q: Have you ever seen them?
A: I haven't seen them--I hadn't seen them
since all this happened, but I'm pretty sure they were
around in discovery or something.
Q: you saw them during the criminal trial?
A: I'm not a hundred percent sure I did, but
I'm pretty sure that they were found around that time--
Q: You haven't seen them recently?
A: No.
Q: And can you describe the incidents that
you wrote down?
A: One time she just started hitting and
kicking me, and I went into Justin's room. Why--I
don't recall what the conversation was at this time,
but I know she did until she got tired, because I just
covered my groin and covered my--turned my back to
her.
And then another time she came in, I was
just laying on the bed, and she took a stack of books
and just slammed them down on me. And the other time
may not have been physical. The other time may have
been more verbal.
Q: Where was the other time?
A: I don't know, but it should be written in
that thing. I don't recall right now.
Q: And why did she slam the books down on
you?
A: It was--it was--I don't recall what
it was. I'm not sure. I'm not sure what it was.
Q: Was she upset at you.?
A: Yeah.
Q: About what?
A: I'm not sure.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's a great question. No, she always threw books at him.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't know. It wouldn't surprise me, based on what I'm hearing.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall what it was about.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You have no recollection at all?
A: None.
Q: Did it hurt?
A: Not really.
Q: Okay. You didn't call the police or
anything. Right?
A: No.
Q: You made no report other than to Randa.
Right?
A: That's right.
Q: Did you tell Nicole you were keeping
track of this, by the way?
A: No.
Q: Was that in the year 1989?
A: I don't know. It may have been.
Q: And what about the other incident where
she hit you and kicked you?
A: What about it?
Q: When did that occur?
A: After '89. After the '8---New Year's
Day '89 incident.
Q: In the year 1989?
A: I don't know. I don't recall.
Q: What was the cause of that problem?
A: I have no idea.
Q: You just don't remember?
A: I just don't remember.
Q: At the time do you remember having an
argument with her?
A: Yeah, at the time I remember my purpose
was to document it, and I did.
Q: Well, she didn't just come up in the
clear blue and start hitting and kicking you. Right?
There was an argument you were having that
escalated
A: We said something--she said something,
I said something, and she started (Indicating), and I
just turned and walked into Justin's room and she
followed me.
Q: And this was the first time there had
been any physical confrontation after the January
incident in 1989?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: By this time you had signed that document
that says if you were to inflict injury on her
physically, then she could tear up the prenup?
A: Exactly.
Q: Is that one of the reasons you restrained
yourself?
A: Well, I believe that was one of the
reasons she was hitting me.
Q: Oh, to bait you into hitting her?
A: Well, I don't know what she was doing.
Q: Is that what you think?
A: I don't know what she was doing, but she
knew that I would not do anything, so she--
Q: Why did she know that?
A: Because I sent the letter, because I had
signed the letter.
Q: And is that also the reason why you
didn't hit her when she slapped ---slammed the books
down?
A: I wouldn't hit her under any
circumstances before this if she slammed the books
down on me.
Q: Is that why you restrained yourself from
removing her from the room?
A: She--when she did it--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Is that the only reason that you restrained yourself from taking her out of the room
THE WITNESS: No. No.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: --the piece of paper that you signed?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is it a reason?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. That isn't what you asked him.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's my next question.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Oh.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Was it a reason?
A: Why?
Q: Were you--was it a reason?
A: As I told you, I wouldn't have hit her
before. I wouldn't have hit her before this.
Q: What I am trying to find out is whether
after you signed this agreement with her, you were
deterred by that agreement from hitting her.
A: I wouldn't have done it anyway.
Q: Okay. Now, you said she verbally abused
You?
A: Yeah..
Q: How did,she do that?
A: I don't know. I'd have to took at the
thing. That's the reason I wrote them down, to remind
me, and I don't recall right now.
Q: Is that the only occasion on which she
verbally abused you?
A: Well it's--I don't know. Verbal abuse
had a totally different--I mean, I don't know what
verbal abuse is at this point. It's a little
different to me than it was back then.
Q: It's a little different to you?
A: Now.
Q: Now?
A: Than it was to me back then.
Q: In what sense?
A: In--I hear people talk to each other--
virtually every friend I know I've heard them get into
arguments and say things. I've heard Judy say things
to Lou that today I would, from what I understand, is
now verbal abuse, but at the time I didn't think it
was at all. I thought it was just people talking.
Q: Did you ever hit your first wife.
Marquerite?
A: Never.
Q: Did you consider yourself a batterer?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you consider Nicole a battered spouse?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI: What are the basis?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No sound bites is the basis.
MR. PETROCELLI: This isn't about sound bites,
MR. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes, it is.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's not fair.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I am not going to let him answer it, so you can do anything you want.
MR. PETROCELLI: What I'm--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I am not going to let him answer it. You can make any speeches or whatever you want.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not trying to make speeches. I am trying to explain to you that his history of abuse, his relationship with Nicole, is highly relevant to the issues in this case, and it's on that basis that I am trying to explore.
Q: You wrote the word 'battered,' or you
said you were a battered spouse in the so-called
suicide note. Right?
A: I said sometimes I felt like a battered
spouse, yes.
Q: Well, what did it feel like when you felt
that way?
A: I felt that when you--for instance,
when she was hitting me, that I had nothing to do. I
didn't feel that, in my conscience, that I could call
the police, so I felt helpless.
Q: Why couldn't you call the police?
A: Because I just wouldn't do that.
Q: Just your choice. Right?
A: My choice. I don't think it was a police
matter.
Q: Okay. And do you believe that Nicole was
a battered spouse?
A: From what I know of it, I would say in
'89, that day, yes.
Q: Is that the only day that you believe
that she was a battered spouse in the course of your
entire relationship with her?
A: In my understanding of it today, I would
say we were both verbally at times abusive of one
another, but if that's the case, I--in my opinion
most of the people I know are verbal abusers.
Q: At the time, before your current--your
current understanding is gained after her murder. Is
that right?
A: No.
Q: Well, at the time that you were married
to her before your divorce in 1992, did you think that
she was a battered spouse--
A: No.
Q: --in the course of her relationship?
A: No.
Q: But you thought you were a battered
spouse?
A: At that time, no.
Q: At the time that you were married to her
before your divorce in 1992, did you think she was a
battered spouse?
A: I thought on New Year's that that was--
I understood from what I read and saw about battery at
the time that that certainly was an abusive incident.
Before then I would have said no.
Q: When you said you were a battered spouse, what incidents did you have in mind: The slapping and the hitting and the verbal abuse?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He has already answered that, number one, and he didn't say he was. He said he felt like it.
MR. PETROCELLI: What's the difference?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, the difference may be a legal conclusion that you're getting to that I'm not going to let him answer, and he is not going to answer that either. You've asked and answered that about four times now.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you ever been diagnosed by anyone as
a batterer?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Nicole was ever
diagnosed as a battered spouse?
A: No.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't know who--what you're talking about, "diagnosed as a"--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You were never diagnosed as a battered
spouse. Right?
A: No.
Q: Did Lenore Walker examine you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did she conclude you were a battered
spouse?
A: I don't know if that was her purpose. I
don't know what her conclusions were, to be honest
with you.
Q: Did she ever tell you that?
A: What?
Q: That you were a batterer.
A: I don't--you know, I would have to
really--
Q: Excuse me. I misspoke. My question to you is: Did Lenore Walker ever tell you that she was a batterer--that you were a batterer?
THE WITNESS: I don't--this is my doctor. Can I talk about this?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to. It's okay.
MR. PETROCELLI: She was a designated expert at trial.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: But she didn't testify, as I recall.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think that makes a difference.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, then you're going to have to test it in court because I'm not going to let him answer it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know who Lenore Walker is?
A: Yes.
Q: You ever meet with her?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there anyone else present?
A: At times, yes.
Q: Who?
A: This other doctor. I can't think of her
name.
Q: How many times did you meet with Lenore
Walker?
A: I don't recall. I was in jail, so
whenever she came.
Q: More than twice?
A: Yes.
Q: Are you aware that she has said on
national television that you've admitted to conduct
that is battery?
A: No.
Q: Are you aware that she has called you a batterer?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You would disagree with that?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What tests did she administer to you?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. Those are all protected by the physician-patient privilege.
MR. PETROCELLI: These were disclosed reports, including the MMPI. You want to take a little break here?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Sure. Why not.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
MR. Leonard whispering in your ear.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He is my co-counsel. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:37.
[Recess.]
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 3:06.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: We were talking about Dr. Lenore Walker
before the break.
A: Yes.
Q: How many times did you meet with her?
A: I don't know.
Q: Number of times, though?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, did you tell Dr. Lenore Walker that you had beat your wife?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You know, you don't have to answer that. I think that's protected by the physician-patient privilege.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you tell Dr. Lenore Walker about acts of spousal abuse?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Same objection. Same instruction.
MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer any of the conversations with Dr. Walker?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Correct.
MR. PETROCELLI: On the ground of this privilege?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes.
Q: What was your purpose in meeting with Dr. Walker?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If he had a purpose.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah, if you had one.
A: I personally didn't have a purpose.
Q: And more than a dozen meetings, would you
say?
A: I don't know.
Q: And was this other doctor present at all
of them?
A: No.
Q: Was there anyone else present besides
either Dr. Walker and this other person?
A: No.
Q: Was she also a doctor?
A: Yes.
Q: And how do you know that?
A: Because I believe when they introduced
themselves, it was doctor and doctor.
Q: What was the subject matter of your conversations with them?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that either because that's subject to the physician-patient privilege. Don't answer it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you take an MMPI test?
A: I don't know what that is.
Q: A test, a psychological test, where you
answered a lot of questions, multiple choice, 4-, 500.
A: I don't know if that's what it was, but I
took a lot of tests.
Q: Written tests?
A: I believe so.
Q: Who were present when you took those
tests?
A: They were, either one or the other or
both.
Q: Okay. Were you told the results of those
tests?
A: No.
Q: Do you know why you were taking those
tests?
A: It had something to do with the case.
Q: Do you know what it had to do with the
case?
A: No.
Q: Dr. Walker ever tell you that you were a batterer?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I am not going to ask any more questions about that,
MR. Baker. Okay? We will--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We will argue about that at a subsequent time.
MR. PETROCELLI: We will resolve that at another time.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Fair enough.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: While you were married to Nicole, did you
have a relationship with a woman named Tawny Kitaen?
A: Yes.
Q: That was in the late '80s. Is that
right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did that relationship end
before the New Year's Eve incident?
A: Years before, yes.
Q: And did it ever resume again?
A: No.
Q: Why did you call her from the airplane
coming back from Chicago on June 13?
A: If I did, I was looking for Cathy.
Q: And what does Cathy have to do with Tawny
Kitaen?
A: They're best friends. They were at the
time best friends.
Q: Do they live near each other?
A: Cathy lived in the Valley, and Tawny
lived at the time on this side of the hill.
Q: Okay. Now, was that the only reason you
remember calling Tawny from the plane?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You said that from what you know now you would consider yourself to be a battered spouse, but what you knew at the time, you did not so regard yourself as a battered spouse. Is that right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That isn't what he said.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, you wrote down as of June 17, 1994, that you were a battered spouse. Correct?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He said he felt like he had--
THE WITNESS: Sometimes I felt.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, you said you felt like you were a
battered spouse as of June 17th. Right?
A: Sometimes I felt like a battered spouse.
Q: When was the first time that you came to
a realization that you felt like a battered spouse?
A: When Nicole was hitting me that time at
home. I don't know if that's the first--if that was
the first incident in that group of incidences, but I
felt helpless.
Q: And when she threw the books on you, did
you feel like a battered spouse then?
A: I felt helpless, yes.
Q: Do you think Nicole felt helpless as a result of your incident with her?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. It calls for pure speculation, and his state of mind relative to her state of mind is irrelevant, and I am going to instruct him not to answer the question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you--
Well, this is a discovery deposition, but
in any event, I'll ask another question.
Did you observe her being helpless?
A: When?
Q: When you were struggling with her,
'rassling" with her, as you put it, January 1, 1989.
A: Well, she was rassling, back, so she
wasn't helpless.
Q: She was not helpless in the sense you
felt--
A: She was struggling back. In cases I
wasn't struggling back. In her case she was.
Q: Has Nicole ever verbally abused you in
public?
A: Yes. I mean, at the time I didn't think
it was abuse, but yes.
Q: In your video, Mr. Simpson, in response to that searing examination by Ross Becker, you said
MR. ROBERT BAKER: At least he could complete his in a day.
MR. BREWER: 90 minutes.
MR. PETROCELLI: 90 minutes,
MR. Baker.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: 92.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: --you said in response to a question
about whether you were a battered husband:
"That is a problem that when I am
free to speak and I go--and I
plan to speak to women's groups, I
think that is an issue. That is an
issue that, you know, battery is
just not a one-way street. I think
it is more an attitude than
anything, just because it doesn't
hurt when someone hits you, someone
slaps you or someone in front of
people is verbally abusive to you,
to me all that constitutes
battery."
A: From what I understand it to be now, yes.
Q: And, now, did you have that understanding
during your relationship with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: All of this understanding was obtained
after she died?
A: No. After '89. And a little after she
died. A little in talking to Lenore.
Q: Did you become aware of battery as a
social problem after this incident in January of 1989?
A: I don't understand that question.
Q: Well, did you become aware of it more
than you had been in the past? Did you learn about
it? Did you read about it? Did you go to sessions?
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Which one do you want him to answer?
MR. PETROCELLI: All of those.
Q: Did you do all those things?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer the question It's compound. You can break it down.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you read books on spousal abuse or
battery after the '89 incident?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And you attended therapy sessions?
A: Yes.
Q: And you spoke to professionals about it?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And from that point on, do you
think you had a good understanding of what battery
was?
A: To an extent, yes.
Q: And from that point on, did you ever
batter Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole ever slap you in front of
people?
A: Yes.
Q: When did she do that?
A: Once in the late 70s, early '80s, and
then once in a club.
Q: The first time who was present?
A: I really didn't know the people. It was
at a party.
Q: She slapped you in front of strangers?
A: Yes. Basically. yes.
Q: What did do you?
A: I left.
Q: Left her there?
A: Yes.
Q: Where was this place?
A: I don't know if it was called Bumble's or
Pips at the time.
Q: Pips?
A: Pips or Bumble's.
Q: Was it a restaurant?
A: No. It was a restaurant/club.
Q: Can you name anybody who was present that
witnessed the slapping?
A: At this point in time, no.
Q: Any of your friends there?
A: They may have been, but I just don't
recall.
Q: Who might have been there?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: This calls for pure speculation.
THE WITNESS: I mean, it would--I really don't know who might have been there. Billy Kehoe, Suzie Kehoe
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. Anybody else come to mind?
A: No.
Q: And the second occasion when Nicole
slapped you in public?
A: It was in Laguna.
Q: And who was present?
A: At the incident most of her sisters for
sure, and I don't know who else.
Q: Was this in a restaurant
A: No. It, was--it may have been a
restaurant. May have been at a Mexican--I can't
think of the name. Las Brisas or something.
Q: Any friends there?
A: You know, there were a lot of people
there, and I just can't recall. This was 12, 15 years
ago.
Q: Why did she slap you?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you have a fight with her?
A: Maybe an argument. Maybe some words.
Q: And she slapped you earlier because you
had an--in the club because of an argument also?
A: I don't know if it was an argument. I
may have been flirting with some body.
Okay. Did you hit her back on either of
those occasions?
A: No. I left on both of those occasions.
Q: Did you make up with her soon there fter?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever tell Nicole that she was a
batterer?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Nicole ever sought
treatment as a batterer?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever discuss that she should seek
such treatment?
A: I don't think either one of us ever did.
Q: Now, Nicole didn't press charges against
you. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: The '89 incident. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And she didn't go to the press either.
Right;
A: Correct.
Q: And she did that because of your desire
that she not disclose this to the press. Right?
A: I think part of it, yes.
Q: And she let it die out. Right?
A: Well, she called the police, so--yeah,
I guess it--I guess we went on with our lives.
Q: Did Michelle let you into her bedroom,
that night with a key?
A: No.
Q: Did Michelle let Nicole into your room?
A: No.
Q: Was Michelle involved at all?
A: Yes.
Q: In what way?
A: She was there.
Q: Did she see you two fighting?
A: She heard us arguing. She didn't see us
fighting, no.
Q: Did she come upstairs--
A: No.
Q: --to see you at all?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And Cowlings wasn't there during
the fight either, was he?
A: No.
Q: As of Nicole's death, did you have a
contract with NBC as a sportscaster?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer yes.
A: Yes.
Q: When was that due to expire?
A: I think I just had signed an extension
for another three or four years.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Are you going to be asking about his financial affairs, Dan?
MR. PETROCELLI: No. not right now.
Q: And were you under contract with anybody
else as of June 12, 1994?
A: Hertz, for sure.
Q: Was that a long-term, contract?
A: I think it was maybe two, three more
years left on that.
Q: Did you have any other employment at that
time?
A: Other than my just normal stuff, you
know, I was--you know, I'll do a movie here or
there. I can't think of anything real specific, no.
Q: So the only two contracts you had were
NBC and Hertz?
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. Were you under contract to act in
any movies to be produced?
A: At the time of her death?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: And were any deals in development or
anything like that?
A: Well, I had done something that was up
for consideration for a TV series called FROGMAN.
Q: You had done the pilot for FROGMAN.
Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And had no contract outside of the
pilot?
A: Well, if it went to a series, I believe
there was--I believe there was an arrangement in
place.
Q: Okay. And did you have any agreements
with any other motion picture producers?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Both NBC and Hertz contracts have
been cancelled?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, did you--were you under contract
to NBC and Hertz as of June ---excuse me--in January
of '89?
A: No.
Q: Which one?
A: What do you mean?
Q: Either of them?
A: I was under contract to Hertz.
Q: But not NBC?
A: Not NBC.
Q: Were you with another broadcasting
company?
A: No.
Q: When did you begin working for NBC?
A: 1989.
Q: What year--I mean what month in '89?
A: The fall.
Q: Okay. And what was the last contract you
had before that for a broadcasting company?
A: I believe I--I don't know what year,
but sometime in the late '80s I did something for--
it could have been ESPN.
Q: Were you ever employed by ABC?
A: Yes.
Q: When was that?
A: In the mid and early '80s.
Q: And when did that end?
A: And then in the early '70s.
Q: When did it end in the '80s?
A: I believe it was '86 maybe.
Q: So between 1986 and the fall of '89 you
didn't have a regular broadcasting job. Is that
right?
A: I did something with ESPN, I believe. I
did one season, I believe, with ESPN where I did five
or six games.
Q: Of college football?
A: No. Pro games.
Q: For one season, you said. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So that was the only broadcasting work in
between the ABC and NBC jobs?
A: Correct.
Q: And your contract in the fall of 1989
with NBC, how long was that for?
A: I'm sorry. Say that again.
Q: Your contract with NBC that you entered
into in the fall of '89, how long was that contract
for?
A: Somewhere between three and five years, I
believe.
Q: Okay. Was it renewed?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times?
A: I believe in '94 it was being renewed for
the third time.
Q: For the third time?
A: I believe so.
Q: Were there any morals clauses in the NBC
contract?
A: You know, I never read the contract.
Q: Or in the Hertz contract?
A: I never read the contract. but I believe
that's--there's something pretty standard in most of
those contracts.
Q: About their ability to terminate in the
event of conduct that they find objectionable?
A: I believe so.
Q: Were you under--were you endorsing any
other products or services in January of 1989 besides
Hertz?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. Let me go back to Exhibit 86 for a
minute.
I forgot to ask you about the first page,
Mr. Simpson. Why don't you take a look at that. I am
going to ask you just to go over the first
me.
A: Okay.
Q: It is true, referring to the first entry
there, that you had not called Nicole between
Christmas and January 16, 1993. Is that right?
A: Say that again now.
Q: Referring to the first entry at the top of is it true that between December 25, 1992 and January 16, 1993 you had not called Nicole?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you have a recollection.
THE WITNESS: Well, called Nicole or called my kids?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Called Nicole.
A: No, I didn't call Nicole.
Q: Did you tell Nicole that you were coming
back to Los Angeles during the week of or following
January 16, 1993?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: Did you come back that week?
A: I don't know.
Q: Now, on Monday, January 18, 1993, were
you in Los Angeles?
A: I could have been.
Q: Do you recall picking up Justin at Gretna
Green and Sydney from Rachel Berman's and taking them
to breakfast?
A: I don't recall it. I don't recall it,
no, but I could have.
Q: Okay. And Monday, February 1, 1993, do
you recall picking up Justin from Oliver's party?
A: I do--I don't know where I picked him
up from but I do recall February 1st clearly,
vividly, as a matter of fact.
Q: Why is that?
A: Because it was the first time I had
spoken or saw Nicole since Christmas.
Q: Okay. Do you know--Dita is who?
Judy?
A: Judy, yes.
Q: Did Judy come to see you and the kids on
that day?
A: When I drove up to get the kids' clothes,
Dita was standing outside with Nicole, of their house,
and that's when I saw Nicole.
Q: Okay. Did you pick up Sydney from school
that day?
A: I believe so.
Q: And did you take kids to karate?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did you watch karate?
A: I believe so. I don't know if I did or
didn't. I'm not sure.
Q: Did you go to Toscana's with Nicole, Judy
and the kids or did you go home after karate?
A: I didn't do anything with Nicole. I saw
Nicole for three or four minutes, and that was the
only time I saw Nicole.
Q: Then you went home?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have a confrontation with Nicole
about the February 2, 1992 vacation plans?
A: "Confrontation," I don't know if it's the
right word, but--
Q: Argument?
A: I don't think that was the right word
either. Nicole was mistaken on--Nicole hadn't paid
any heed to a letter that she received.
Q: From whom?
A: From my office, stating that I would not
be in town the remainder of that week. so I wanted to
spend time with my kids for the 1st, 2nd and I believe
the 3rd, because I was leaving town on the 3rd.
Q: And she didn't pay any attention to that.
Is that what you said?
A: She wanted me to keep the kids all week
because I had been--this was the first time I was
back in L.A., and she made some comment about she was
going to Europe that week.
Q: Did you call to leave a message that you
were going to stay in Florida?
A: No.
Q: See, I am referring to the last entry on
here.
A: Where is this at?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's right down here [Indicating]. It's very poor on that copy.
BY MR. PETROCELLI: trn
Q: "O.J. called once to leave a message"
something "stay in Florida." I can't read it all.
A: It could be, because I was in Florida I
would say a lot during that time. I was thinking to
move to Florida.
Q: During the week of February 13 and 19,
did Nicole take the kids to Aspen to go skiing?
A: I'm sorry?
Q: During the week--I am referring now to
the second page, Mr. Simpson, the only entry on there.
A: Yeah.
Q: During the week of February 13 to 19, did
Nicole take the kids to Aspen to go skiing?
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. Thank you.
Let me show you--You recalled Nicole
going with Sydney to see Disney On Ice in January
1988?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall you being invited and not
wanting to go?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you recall Nicole taking Sydney
to go to Disney On Ice at some other occasion?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever go to see Disney On Ice?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Okay. Well, let me show you this letter dated it appears to be January 1988. Can't read the day. Mark this as the next exhibit.
[Plaintiffs' Exhibit 87 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.]
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you ever seen this document before?
A: I might have.
Q: When did you first see it?
A: I believe when I was in jail.
Has this been changed, this date?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I can't read the date.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you recall an incident when you came
back from going out with A.C. Cowlings and you were
drunk in or around January of 1988 and had a
confrontation with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall calling her a fat pig?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall whether Nicole was two
months' pregnant in 1988?
A: She probably would have been.
Q: She was two months' pregnant with Justin,
who was born in August of 1988. Correct?
A: She probably would have been, yes.
Q: Okay. Down here in the middle it says,
"He never let up. You're a fat pig . . . You're
disgusting. You're a slob... I want you out of my
fucking house."
Did you say those things to Nicole?
A: Never.
Q: "Then I took Sydney to bed, tried to,
anyway! And he proceeded to cut me down with A.C. in
the entry downstairs."
Do you recall that?
A: No.
Q: "I tried to tape the
conversation but the recorder
didn't work. He was saying all
those things again, so that I could
hear every word as he was telling
A.C.--My wife's a fat ass--a
liar... I stopped fucking other
girls, and now I jack off . . . The fat
ass . . ."
Did you say those things?
A: Never.
Q: Do you recall locking her out of her
room?
A: No.
Q: You lived in Rockingham then. Right?
A: In '88?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you tell her to get out of your
fucking house?
A: No.
Q: You see all these things written down
here?
A: You want me to read it all?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Next page.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, look at the second page,
Mr. Simpson. I am at the first complete paragraph.
It says that you said you want her "to have an
abortion with the baby."
Did you say that?
A: I would have never said that, ever.
Q: She said she packed a few things
together. Do you remember her doing that?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell her that, "Let me tell you
how serious I am . . . I have a gun in my hand right now--
Get the fuck out of here"?
A: No.
Q: Did you have cats at that time as pets?
A: We used to have cats. I don't know if we
still had them at this time.
Q: Okay. Nicole writes: "I got real scared and grabbed Sydney and the cats and a bag for her and a bottle--and a pair of sweats from the laundry room for me and get the hell"--"got the heck out of the house." Do you see that?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, see, it says--it's your foundation that it's Nicole's writing.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, do you recognize this writing as
Nicole's?
A: I can't tell with this, but it could be
Nicole's, yes.
Q: Do you know why Nicole would write such
things if they were not true?
A: Maybe she was feeling that way.
Q: That she would just invent this whole thing?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you don't know, just tell him you don't know.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, was there some incident that you
believe she might have been referring to here?
A: No.
Q: Does this resemble anything that happened
that you can recall?
A: Nothing I ever recall. No.
Q: Is it possible that it happened but you don't recall?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: It never happened?
A: Never happened.
Q: You're a hundred percent sure?
A: I never said these things to Nicole,
ever.
Q: Does it--When you saw this for the time, were you shocked that such things were written down by Nicole?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. It's irrelevant whether he was shocked or not shocked.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Were you?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer it, I told you.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you do anything about it?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Do anything--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: To investigate why she did this.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: While he was in jail?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that either.
MR. PETROCELLI: He had a lot of lawyers,
MR. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Thank you very much for your gratuitous remark.
MR. PETROCELLI: And a lot of investigators.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you ever find out the circumstances behind Nicole's writing of these--of this letter?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, he can tell me if he knows.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He could tell you a lot of things he knows if I allowed him.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's not privileged.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's not privileged?
MR. PETROCELLI: No.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's not attorney work product and it's not protected--
MR. PETROCELLI: He might have learned it from Al Cowlings.
Q: Putting your lawyers aside, do you
have any information about the circumstances of
Exhibit 87?
A: No.
Q: Now, you don't believe Exhibit 87 was
made up by Nicole in connection with getting out of
the prenup, do you?
A: Personally?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: And what makes you say that?
A: I don't know. She--when she talked to
me about some of the things that they had her doing,
one of the things, that she had to write letters, and
this looks like a letter with--some of the other
stuff I saw didn't took like letters.
Q: Well, when I asked you about this before, you never told me that she said that they had her-- they asked her to write letters.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer his argumentative question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that something that you just thought of now?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that question. It's argumentative, and it's your saying what he testified to earlier.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Are you now saying that Nicole told you
the lawyers had her write letters?
A: She said to me they had her write a bunch
of stuff, you know, when she was filling out various
things, writing up these, her words, "letters." She
didn't say anything other than notes, other than
letters. I assumed they were all letters, but they
weren't when I saw them in jail.
Q: What were the other ones that were not
letters?
A: This whole list that--when she says,
"These are the things I remember," and she wrote all
of these things that you guys start saying was a
diary.
Q: Okay. Now, this document, did somebody
tell you that this is what Nicole's lawyers had her
write up, Exhibit 86--excuse me--Exhibit 87?
A: No. But I just saw it with--in the
packet that I got of all of those allegations, this
was a part of it, so I assume this was all a part of
it.
Q: When you were given that packet, were you
told this is a packet of materials that Nicole made
up?
A: No. I was given a lot of discovery one
day, and I sat in my cell and read it.
Q: And you saw a bunch of documents which
appeared to be allegations by Nicole against you.
Right?
A: Well, this was all in one packet,
Q: And it was those documents that you
thought at that time were the documents that she made
up. Right?
A: Well, I knew they were the documents she
made up because they said they were hers, and I knew
it was made-up stuff.
Q: And how did you know they, were hers?
A: Because it was purported to be hers. It
was
Q: Who purported it to be hers?
A: Whoever delivered it to me, and whatever
it was, it was purported to be her things with her
lawyers, and
Q: Who told you it was her lawyers?
A: --I can't recall if they were signed by
her or not, but the handwriting was much like this
handwriting, and it was purported that these were
allegations that she was making to her lawyers.
Q: Do you know where these documents came
from when they were given to you?
A: Discovery.
Q: Discovery from whom?
A: From the prosecution.
Q: Now, where did the prosecutors get it?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Did you ever ask?
A: No.
Q: In other words, you think they were found in Nicole's home or personal possessions or lawyer's office?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's irrelevant, where he thinks they were found. He has told you he doesn't know. Don't answer that.
Q: Let me show you--let me show you the next exhibit in order, which will be--what are we? THE REPORTER: 88.
MR. PETROCELLI: 88. Here you go, David. (Plaintiffs'Exhibit 88 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you ever seen Exhibit 88 before?
A: I just saw it, yes.
Q: Just a minute or two ago you were
referring to a document where various incidents were
listed. Is this the one you had in mind?
A: Yes.
Q: I believe I've already asked you about
each of these claims of abuse, and you have said none
of them occurred. Is that right?
A: Correct.
Q: Who is Bruce?
A: I believe her divorce lawyer.
Q: Nicole--do you recognize the note to
Bruce to be in Nicole's handwriting?
A: It could be. I don't--I can't say that
I totally right now recognize Nicole's handwriting,
but I'm assuming it is.
Q: Do you have any reason to believe this
note is not in her handwriting?
A: Not really, no.
Q: Now, she writes here in the middle,
"There were plenty of small times where he'd just push
me or grab me hard enough to bruise my arms, but they
happened so often that I can't remember specifics."
Is that true that that occurred?
A: No.
Q: And did you ever push her or grab her hard enough to bruise her arms?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Go to the second e it
talks about Pips on Rodeo.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Is that the place where she where
Nicole slapped you?
A: No. This is a place that was still on
Robertson.
Q: When did you get a wine closet put into
your Rockingham residence?
A: 19--I mean what's there now I got in
1990 maybe, '89 or '90.
Q: And before then did you have a little
area where you would store wine?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you call that?
A: I don't know.
Q: A wine closet?
A: It could be called that, but I never
called it a wine closet.
Q: And how long was that closet there?
A: Since I had Rockingham.
Q: You don't recall any incident where you
put Nicole in that closet, do you?
A: Never.
Q: Could you go to the tled
"Vacations' in here?
A: What hat?
Q: I think it's the next to last page.
A: Okay.
Q: The first one says "Italy," and then it
has next to that, "Venice, Rome, Florence, England,
Germany." Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you go on a vacation like that with
Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: For her 21st birthday?
A: I don't know if it was for her birthday.
I doubt it was for her birthday because we were there
for Octoberfest. The earlier part of Octoberfest, so
it was late September, so
Q: What year?
A: I don't know.
Q: Early on in your relationship?
A: Relatively, in terms of 17 years, yes,
but it couldn't have been her birthday because it was
Octoberfest.
Q: The next line says "Aspen," can't read
the next word.
A: "Many times."
Q: "Many times."
A: Yeah.
Q: Is that true, that you and she went there
many times?
A: Yes.
Q: It says "1986--Vail . . .(many times)."
A: Yes.
Q: Is that true also?
A: Yes.
Q: "1988--Hawaii (many times)." Is that
true?
A: Yes.
Q: "Cabo San Lucas." Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: 1988 was Hawaii and Cabo.
In 1989 it says "Acapulco twice [sic],
birthday." Is that true? Did you go there then?
A: In 1989
Q: Yeah.
A: --I don't think we went twice, but I
went there for her--took her there for her birthday,
yes.
Q: Did you go to Puerto Vallarta?
A: No.
Q: Las Hadas?
A: Las Hadas we went to on our honeymoon.
Puerto Vallarta--
Q: Honeymoon in 1985?
A: I don't think--You're telling me to
read what she says here.
Q: Is that where you went?
A: Yes, that's one of the places we went
to.
I don't ever recall going to Puerto
Vallarta with Nicole, but I might have. We might
have.
Q: Just so I'm clear, your honeymoon was in
Las Hadas in 1985?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you attend a wedding for
Michael Millitello at the Ritz Carlton with Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: That's on the last page.
A: Yes.
Q: But there was no incident of abuse
there?
A: None at all.
Q: Who are Eric and Val Von Warts?
A: Our neighbors--was our neighbors.
Q: Now, there it says that you and they
listened to music on Wilshire. What's this Wilshire
place? Do you know anything about that?
A: No. It just seemed to me that we once
went to hear a band of some friend of Watts once on
Wilshire. It's--you know, it's a while ago, so--
but it just seemed to me that we may have.
Q: Did you ever take Nicole to a hospital on
Wilshire Boulevard?
A: No. Is there a hospital on Wilshire?
Q: I don't know. Is there?
A: Yeah, there is.
Q: Where?
A: My two kids were born, Cady kids were
born at Good Samaritan Hospital in downtown L.A.
Q: Wilshire?
A: Yes. Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah, it goes all the way through. Yeah, it goes all the way through.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Let me show you another document, Mr. Simpson. Mark this as Exhibit 89.
[Plaintiffs' Exhibit 89 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.]
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You ever see this document before?
A: No, I don't recall.
Q: Did you see it in jail?
A: I might have.
Q: Does this document appear to you to be in
Nicole's handwriting?
A: Yeah, it looks like the same handwriting
as this other.
Q: What did Nicole call you?
A: O.J.
Q: This is a letter addressed to you, and it
says in part here:
"I'd like you to keep this letter
if we split so that you'll always
know why we split. I'd also like
you to keep it if we stay together
as a reminder."
Okay?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Did you ever get this letter from her?
A: No.
Q: Could you tell by that statement when
this was written?
A: No.
Q: After the June--excuse me. After the
January 1989 incident, was there a time when you and
she were contemplating splitting.?
A: No.
Q: You never even discussed it?
A: Till she told me she wanted to split, it
never came up.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you that she saw
your marriage as a huge mistake?
A: No.
Q: Prior to your marriage but while you were
living with her, were you frequently seeing other
women?
A: No.
Q: Was that a subject of contention between Nicole and you?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You've gone into that. Don't answer that. You've gone into that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: This letter indicates that it was, and I
am perhaps hoping this might jog your recollection.
Does it?
A: I don't know. I haven't read the letter,
but, I mean, obviously when there were phone numbers,
she would make comments.
Q: Just about phone numbers?
A: Yeah.
Q: She says she "took the blame many times
for your cheating." Do you know what that refers to?
A: No.
Q: She writes in the second paragraph, "I
remember a long time ago a girlfriend of yours wrote
you a letter. She had"--"she said, well, you aren't
married yet, so let's get together."
Do you know who--Did you ever receive
such a letter?
A: I didn't, but she did.
Q: Nicole did?
A: Yes.
Q: From whom?
A: I don't know. I was at USC, and some
girl put a letter on my windshield wiper, and
evidently I never noticed it driving home, and Nicole
took it off the windshield wiper.
Q: And she talked to you about it?
A: Yes.
Q: What did it say?
A: I don't recall. I never saw the letter.
She never gave me the letter.
Q: Something about your getting together
with her?
A: Could have been.
Q: Okay. The third his letter, I
am not going to read it; it's too long and there is a
lot of profanity in here, but generally the third
page, the third paragraph, talks about your giving her
bad treatment, looks of disgust because she was heavy
from her pregnancy with Sydney.
That's not true?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever complain to Nicole, let's say
before 1990, that her living habits bothered you; she
was sloppy and messy?.
A: Living habits?
Q: Yeah, that she'd leave things around, she
was not neat, leave her shoes on the floor, things
like that.
A: I think it was sort of a running thing
with us, yes.
Q: And you were more neat and orderly?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, the next his, it says
"2764" at the top, it says:
"There was also that time
before Justin and after Sydney I
felt good about how I got back into
shape. You beat the holy hell, out
of me and we lied at the X-ray lab
and said I fell off a bike.
Remember!??"
Now, do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall such an incident?
A: No.
Q: You never beat
A: It never happened.
Q: It never happened?
A: Never happened.
Q: Now, in the next paragraph Nicole writes
about the televised Clipper game and going to
Stellini's before the game and your 40th birthday
party and the week leading up to it."
Do you recall those events?
A: I don't recall--I recall my 40th
birthday party, but the events around it, I don't
remember. We always went to Stellini's, so . . .
Q: Was there some episode or incident at a
televised Clipper game that comes to mind?
A: No.
Q: And the top of the next , "Since Justin's birth is the . . . New Year's Eve beat up." You deny beating her up. Right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: There is a word after--
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: There is a word after--
MR. PETROCELLI: Where,
MR. Baker?
THE WITNESS: What are you talking about?
MR. PETROCELLI: 2763.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: "The mad New Year's Eve"? Oh, is that what it is, "the mad New Year's Eve"?
MR. PETROCELLI: Oh, you're right.
Q: "And since Justin's birthday is the mad
New Year's Eve beat up."
Do you see that?
A: I see it. yes.
Q: But that didn't occur. Right?
A: We had a fight on New Year's, as I told
you.
Q: But you didn't beat her up.
A: No.
Q: Okay.
A: But the bruises and stuff she received, I
feel totally responsible for.
Q: On the next to last page, Nicole writes:
"I called the cops to save my
life whether you believe it or
not. But I didn't pursue anything
after that--I didn't prosecute, I
didn't call the press and didn't
make a big charade out of it. I
waited for it to die down, and
asked for it to."
Is that true?
A: What portion of it?
Q: The whole thing.
A: Well, it couldn't be true because we had
stopped fighting. She called the cops after the fight
was over, so I don't--I don't--that can't be
true. The rest of it--
Q: The part about she called the cops to
save her life. That's what you're saying. Right?
A: That's what I'm saying, yes.
Q: The rest of that's true, though. Right?
A: What is the rest of it? I don't . . .
Q: The next sentence:
"I didn't pursue anything
after that --I didn't prosecute, I
didn't call the press and didn't
make a big charade out of it--I
waited for it to die down and asked
for it to"?
A: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Tape change, is that what you said? Go ahead. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is end of tape No. 2 of Volume VI. The time is approximately 3:50 and we are off the record.
[Recess.]
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 4:08. This is the beginning of tape No. 3 of Volume VI.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: After Nicole and you were married and had
children, did she go out less frequently?
A: Yes, we went out less frequently.
Q: Did you and she used to argue over her
backing out of functions at the last minute?
A: Yes.
Q: So look at the last his, the
paragraph in the middle. It says:
"I agree that we married"--
"that after we married things
changed--we couldn't have house
fulls of people like I used to have
over and barbecue for, because I
had other responsibilities. I
didn't want to go to a lot of
events and I'd back down at the
last minute on functions and trips
I admit. I'm sorry."
Is it true that those things occurred?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Let me mark the next three exhibits, 90, 91 and 92. These are the three letters from you, Mr. Simpson. I think you've seen these in court already. First one is a two ment. Mark that as Exhibit 90; second one is three pages, and that will be 91; and the third one is a seven-page document. That will be 92.
[Plaintiffs' Exhibits 90, 91 and 92 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.]
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You've seen these three exhibits before,
90, 91 and 92?
A: No. Can I read them.?
Q: Oh, sure. What I want you to do is put them in proper chronological order for me.
[Witness reviews documents.]
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Off the record real quick. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record.
[Discussion held off the record.]
MR. PETROCELLI: Back on the record.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And you wrote all three of these?
A: Yes.
Q: They are all in your own handwriting,
A: Yes.
Q: When did you write these? Start with--
A: I really can't say. It seems as if this
one with the 92 would have been the first one, it just
seems.
Q: Okay.
A: And it seems that 90 would have been the
last one, but it was all in--one of them I wrote
while we were--actually while we were having
dinner. I don't know which one, though.
Q: At Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know the dates of these, when you
wrote these letters?
A: I would say they were all written within
the month, yeah, all pretty much written within the
two weeks to--you know, within that first month.
Q: January 1989?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you give all three of these to
Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Exhibit 90 is written on Cartier
stationery. Do you see that?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Do you know where you got that from?
A: No.
Q: Were you in New York during this time?
A: No.
Q: You didn't have a football job in January
of 1989. Is that right?
A: No.
Q: Why didn't ABC renew your contract? Do
you know?
A: You mean back in '86?
Q: Yeah.
A: I don't know. They were going with a
whole new look on Monday night football, other than
Gifford.
Q: Were you having a drinking problem in
December 1988, January 1989?
A: No.
Q: In one of these letters, I believe it's
Exhibit 92, it says that you agreed to go to
Alcoholics Anonymous.
A: Yes.
Q: Why.?
A: Because we had been drinking, and then I
got physical, and I didn't think that was an excuse
for that. I didn't want to use alcohol or whatever,
the way I reacted, as an excuse.
Q: So you didn't have any drinking problem,
but you went to AA anyway?
A: No. Nicole told me, "Well, you don't
have to go to AA. You're not a drunk," and I didn't.
Q: Were you drunk that night?
A: Well, I think we both were drinking, so
we had drank pretty good that night.
Q: Were you drunk? A. I was able to drive home, but I think we had drank pretty good that night yes.
Q: Were you legally drunk?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Did you take a blood alcohol test?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Had you taken one, would you have passed or failed?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that. It's a great question, though.
MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. I think it calls for pure speculation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In all three of these letters, basically
you're expressing regret for the incident?
A: Yes.
Q: And again you seem to have some very
strong words of regret here about your conduct being
unacceptable and so forth.
A: The way I reacted, I thought I reacted
unlike I had ever reacted before.
Q: But all you did was restrain her and try
to get her out of the room. Right?
A: I physically removed her from a room
and I had never really done that before.
Q: In Exhibit 91 you talk about a
conversation with the detective.
A: Yes.
Q: Is that Edwards?
A: No.
Q: Who is that?
A: Ferrill.
Q: You also say you're not trying to buy her
out, buy Nicole out, in Exhibit 91. What did you mean
by that?
A: I think it was during that period of time
that I had discussed with her or I had sent her or
discussed with her this letter about the prenuptial
agreement.
Q: Whose idea was that?
A: Mine.
Q: Okay. Did Nicole respond to these
letters?
A: She wrote me two letters, I believe.
Q: Do you have them?
A: No.
Q: Have you seen them since you went to
jail?
A: No.
Q: What did her letters say, if you can
remember?
A: How she was disappointed in how the night
went and how she had been trying so hard, and she
apologized also, and tone-wise almost what I wrote to
her.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. The next document I am going to mark is 93. It's an agreement.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You've got to get better copies.
[Plaintiffs' Exhibit 93 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is this the agreement that you offered
Nicole?
A: I believe so.
Q: Whose handwriting is this agreement?
A: I don't know. Looks like it may be Skip
Taft.
Q: You authorized Taft to write this on your
behalf?
A: Yes.
Q: Let me--Whose--Was it your idea or
Taft's idea, by the way?
A: Mine.
Q: And did you discuss it with Nicole before
you offered it to her?
A: I think so.
Q: And what did she say?
A: I didn't think it mattered to her one way
or the other, but this letter was more for me than it
was for her.
Q: Okay. And do you know when she signed
this document?
A: A lot later.
Q: Do you know why?
A: I have no idea.
MR. PETROCELLI: I will mark as the next exhibit a better copy of this document, 94, plus an attachment. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 94 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Take a look at Exhibit 94, Mr. Simpson,
and the second letter from Nicole to Skip,
who I take to be Skip Taft, stating:
"It has taken me until now to
sign this agreement. Until
recently, I didn't even think we'd
reconcile. Things look good--in
fact--better than they've looked
in the long time. Please send a
copy to Bruce Clemens and to me.
Thanks, Nicole."
And the last n August 8, 1989
letter from Taft to Clemens transmitting Nicole's
signed document. Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, between January of '89 and
August of 1989 when Nicole signed the document, were
you separated from her?
A: No.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Except for the times that we've already discussed, the three days--
MR. PETROCELLI: Three-day period.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Right.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Were you having difficulties working through the incident that occurred on New Year's Eve?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I think we've gone through this in some detail.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What I am focusing on here obviously is
the statement by Nicole that she didn't think "we'd
ever reconcile," and she underlines the word "Never,"
and I am wondering whether it causes you now to
remember--
A: What?
Q: --anything more than what you've already
told me about this incident.
A: No. We never separated. We lived
together--, we took trips together that spring.
Q: But as far as you were concerned, the
incident was behind you within a couple of days after
it occurred. Right?
A: As far as I was concerned, the incident
was--would never be behind us, but we went on with
our lives a couple of days after. I mean, we ended up
back together and we took some trips together, and we
continued on with our lives. But I was going to
therapy, and we were going to therapy together, so the
incident was still very much alive in our
consciousness.
Q: Did you ever talk to Nicole about why she
hadn't signed the agreement?
A: No.
Q: Why it was taking her time to sign it?
A: No. It was up to her.
Q: Okay. And did you and she ever have
discussions about her personal safety?
A: No.
Q: And your assuring her personal safety?
A: Other than this?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You mean assuring her personal safety vis-a-vis O.J.?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: That came up with Dr. Kittay, did it not?
A: You'd have to ask Dr. Kittay.
MR. PETROCELLI: Next is Exhibit 95. Exhibit 95 is the nolo contendere plea to the misdemeanor of spousal abuse plus some related documents.
[Plaintiffs' Exhibit 95 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Even though Nicole didn't press charges,
the prosecutors brought a complaint against you. Is
that right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you pled nolo contendere to the
charge of spousal abuse. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you received what as a penalty?
A: Basically community service time
Q: How many hours?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you perform them?
A: Yes.
Q: And you also went to see Burton Kittay?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. And Nicole came with you?
A: Maybe once or twice she was a part of it,
but yes. Not always.
Q: Now, in
MR. Kittay's letter here, which
is a part of this attachment, is a letter to Howard
Weitzman dated April 3, 1989.
Weitzman was your lawyer in connection
with this spousal abuse proceeding. Right? Is that
right?
A: Pardon me?
Q: Weitzman was your lawyer?
A: Yes.
Q: Kittay writes that you have expressed
statements to him assuring the safety of Nicole.
A: Pardon me?
Q: Do you see that on the second page
there?
A: Second
Q: Kittay's letter.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Burton Kittay's letter.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And then on the next page. Mr. Simpson,
in number 6 and 7 at the bottom, you see you have
promised your wife's safety. Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, did you and Nicole have discussions
about this--
A: No.
Q: --about her safety?
A: No.
Q: It was never an issue?
A: No. That's what this letter [Indicating]
was about.
Q: Excuse me?
A: That's what this letter [Indicating] was
about.
Q: You're referring to the agreement?
A: Yes.
Q: What do you mean by that?
A: That's what the letter was about.
Q: How does--The letter provides a
financial disincentive to you to hit her in the
future. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: And that's how you assured her safety.
Right?
A: Well, that's
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Now, you mean--
THE WITNESS: What I gave to her.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: --in connection with this going to therapy and the other things that he's testified to?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you tell Dr. Kittay anything different than what you've testified to in this deposition about what happened that evening?
THE WITNESS: I don't know if I can talk about what Dr. Kittay and I talked about.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. You don't have to. You don't have to discuss anything that Dr. Kittay and you talked about other than what's set forth in the letter.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, it pretty much covers everything,
MR. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't agree with you. He doesn't describe the incident at all, unless I missed it,
MR. Petrocelli.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, it's all about the incident, though.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He doesn't describe the incident, and he doesn't have to--your question went to that incident.
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
Q: I want to know what exactly you told the doctor about what happened that night.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: And I instruct him not to answer that question based upon the psychotherapist patient privilege.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Dr. Kittay writes that you intend to
remain in therapy for an extended period of time. Did
you?
A: Yes.
Q: How long were you in therapy all told?
A: I don't think I ever stopped. I just
would call him from time to time as I--pertaining to
when I felt that I needed another perspective, as I
stated in the video.
Q: How many times did you consult him with
respect to spousal abuse issues?
A: I think once we--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You can tell the number of times.
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: I think once we went beyond-- once it was beyond the court, whatever the court thing was, I continued to see him, and at that point it wasn't about spousal abuse. It was just from time to time when I needed another perspective on whatever was happening.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. Do you know how many sessions you
had pursuant to the court's order?
A: No.
Q: Okay. I would like to show you this other document here called "Antenuptial Agreement." [Plaintiffs' Exhibit 96 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: This is the prenuptial agreement or the
antenuptial agreement that you and Nicole entered into
prior to marriage?
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. And is this the antenuptial
agreement that Nicole was trying to invalidate by
inventing claims of spousal abuse?
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. Do you have any basis of--
Withdrawn.
Do you know how she was going to attempt
to invalidate this agreement by inventing claims of
abuse?
A: It had something to do with this letter
and retroactively--I don't know. It was an aborted
attempt that never really got much breath.
Q: But the letter that you gave her said
that if you ever hit her after the date of that
letter
A: Uh-huh.
Q: --then the prenuptial agreement would be
torn up. Right?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And the prenuptial agreement was
Exhibit 96. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: So all she had to do was invent one
episode after the date of the February 1989
agreement. Correct?
A: Well, she would have to prove it.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, you're asking him to--
THE WITNESS: She would have to prove it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: She would have had to prove it. Exactly.
A: Yeah.
Q: Do you know why she made up a number of incidents that are dated long before--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: --February of 1989?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We've been through this, and it calls for speculation, and don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you have an understanding as to why pre-February 1989 incidents were invented--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't--you are not going to--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: --in the course of these divorce proceedings?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You are not going to answer that. You've gone through that, and vou are asking him to speculate, and--
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not asking--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: --his opinion is irrelevant to any--
MR. PETROCELLI: But what if somebody told him?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well. You want more hearsay? You didn t get enough from Faye Resnick's depo?
MR. PETROCELLI: Faye has a lot of direct admissions from Mr. Simpson.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We'll see.
MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. The next document is Exhibit 97. [Plaintiffs' Exhibit 97 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.]
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you ever seen this document before?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you know what it is?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Nicole was keeping a
diary at any time during your marriage?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Is this one of the documents you saw in
jail?
A: Now that I see these dreams, I'm pretty
sure I did.
Q: Excuse me?
A: Now that I see this little thing with
dreams here, I think--I think I did.
Q: And that would have been the first time
you saw this?
A: Yes.
Q: Go to the third his. It's--
the fourth ally. On the side it says
"3139."
A: What does it say?
Q: "3139." Right over here (Indicating).
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You've got it right here [Indicating].
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
Q: On the left side there, Mr. Simpson, it
says, middle of the page, "Saturday was worse. O.J.
picked us up in Cabo. Sunday was a blowup."
Underneath that, "Painful, painful week."
Do you see that?
A: "Saturday was worse. O.J. picked us
up"--I
Q: "In Cabo."
A: I don't know what this would be referring
to.
Q: You have no recollection of that event?
A: What do you mean by picking them up in
Cabo? Is this when they came down, when Nicole
followed us down to Cabo?
Q: I don't know when this is. That's why I'm asking you.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, don't speculate, O.J.
THE WITNESS: That's the only time
MR. ROBERT BAKER: O.J., just don't speculate.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What's the only time?
A: Pardon me? The only time I recall them
arriving at Cabo that I wasn't there may have been
that time.
Q: April '93 when she came with Faye and the
children?
A: She did come to Cabo once in--she did
one year in '94, I believe, come to Cabo later than I
did, but I don't know. I can't read this, so I
can't--if I could read it all, I probably could help
you.
Q: Did Nicole used to talk to her--talk to
you about her dreams?
A: I think, she read something, and they told
them to write down her dreams, I believe.
Q: Do you know when that was?
A: In my mind that was the therapy she went
to that when she came out of--I'm speculating. I'm
sorry. I'm speculating.
Q: What time frame are you referring to?
A: Before we got back together is what I'm
speculating to, but I--
Q: The therapy that she was in?
A: Yeah. It seems like the guy told her to
write her dreams down or something or she read it
somewhere. I just kind of recall that going on.
Q: Go to the last his--or next to
last page. It says on the left side, "I believe
however, that O.J. needs to learn"--
A: Next to the last page?
Q: Yeah.
A: Where?
Q: Right over here (Indicating).
A: All right.
Q: It says, "I believe however, that O.J. needs to learn how to take space also. He is still very possessive, obsessive and controlling." Do you agree that you were possessive in your relationship with Nicole?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: And you're inserting that that means that he was possessive, obsessive with her. Right? That's the tone of your question--
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: --the import of your question?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, I don't think that says that at all.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Were you?
A: I don't believe so, not the first two,
no.
Q: Were you obsessive with Nicole?
A: I don't believe so at all.
Q: Controlling.?
A: I think I'm a controlling person, period.
Q: And you were controlling with Nicole,
too. Right?
A: I think in my life, in my space, I like
my space the way I like my space.
Q: My question was whether you were also
controlling with Nicole.
A: No.
Q: What were you--Well, you're controlling
generally but not with Nicole. Is that what you're
saying?
A: Yeah, I think in general that I like my
space. I like things the way I like things, and
people who come into my life tend to conform to the
way I do things.
Q: Did Nicole conform?
A: Yes. Not the last year we were together,
but certainly before, she did, yes.
Q: By last year "[you] were together," what
do you mean?
A: The last year we're together I wouldn't
let her move in, so consequently she had her space to
do whatever she wanted to do.
Q: 1993 to '94?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Okay. And you were not obsessive towards
her. Is that right?
A: No. Well, I may have been obsessive in
that I bought her too many things, but outside of
that--I would be the same way with any girl in my
life.
Q: Okay. Mother's Day of 1994.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Did you go down to see Nicole without
being invited?
A: No.
Q: You went to Sean's communion on that
Saturday?
A: Yes.
Q: And then Mother's Day was the next day?
A: Yes.
Q: And did Nicole ask you to come down and
join the family?
A: Yes. We had a date--we had a Saturday
night date.
Q: Now, that Saturday Nicole--apparently
you got there really early in the morning Saturday
morning--
A: Yes.
Q: --after that incident on the freeway.
Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, on that Saturday you and Nicole were
arguing at her mother's house. Right?
A: No.
Q: Nicole left to go home while you were out
getting your car washed. Is that right?
A: No. Nicole went to my place to sleep
while I went and bought Mother's Day gifts for Judy,
Denise, Dominique and Nicole.
Q: And when you got back to the Brown
residence, Nicole wasn't there. Right?
A: She was at my place sleeping.
Q: And the kids were with the Browns.
Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you went over to--you went
over to the condo with Nicole. Right?
A: Yeah,
Q: She was there sleeping. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you wanted to go out that evening.
Right?
A: No. I kinda went back and forth. I took
a nap, and then I woke her up at 8:00 o'clock to go to
dinner.
Q: Now, she said she didn't want to go out.
[1I Right?
A: No. She got dressed and she got to the
door, and then she freaked out.
Q: Okay. Didn't you get on the bed while
she was lying on it and straddle her?
A: No.
Q: And sort of force her?
A: Definitely not.
Q: Shoulders down, against--pinned her
against the bed?
A: Definitely not.
Q: Did you have an argument with her on the
bed while you were upset because she didn't want to go
out?
A: No. She--we got to the door, the car
was warming up, and she freaked out and said, "Look at
me. I'm having a breakdown. I can't do this."
And I said, "What's the matter with you?"
And we talked, and she calmed down, and we
went to her mother's house to drop off the night stuff
for the kids. Then we went to the restaurant and had
dinner.
Q: And there was absolutely no incident
where you had mounted her or straddled her on the bed?
A: None.
Q: When you awakened her to go out, was she
amenable to going out with you?
A: Yeah. She got up, took a shower and got
dressed.
Q: So everything was all right until you
started to leave, and then all of a sudden she--
A: And all of a sudden she just freaked.
She was shaking. I mean, I could visibly see that
something was wrong.
Q: And you had no idea why that was
happening?
A: Well, it was why I was slowly pulling
away, because that's the way that she sounded when I
was in--from time to time when I was in Puerto Rico.
Q: Now, the next day you went to the Browns'
for Mother's Day. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Were relations between Nicole and you
good that day.?
A: Yeah, things were--it was--that's the
strange thing about it: Things were great that day.
Q: There was no tension?
A: None. We were laughing. There was some
book that Judy had bought for Nicole, and we were all
reading it saying, "This is you, Nicole. This is you
Nicole," and it was really a fun day.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Just answer his questions, O.J.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: As of May 8, 1994, which is this Mother's
Day, did Nicole have a will?
A: Yes.
Q: When had she made that will?
A: Just about every time we took a trip, she
wrote out what she had, what she was doing and who she
was leaving things with. That started very early in
our relationship, once she started obtaining things,
and I think Lou was trying to get her to sign, because
I remember seeing something--Lou was talking to her
that day even about some--because she bought the
house, and Nicole had been putting something off and
putting it off, and Lou was trying to get her to fill
out something for a will, and to my knowledge Nicole
never did. But I'm told that there's a signed will
somewhere, but I'm also told that--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Never mind. Never mind.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: But you're also told what?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI: You cut him off in the middle of a sentence.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I sure did cut him off in the middle of it.
MR. PETROCELLI: Why? He was answering the question.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He was not. He was going well beyond the question.
MR. KELLY: I thought he answered the question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: "But I'm also told" what? What are you told about this will?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Now he is responding to a question,
MR. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. He is not going to answer that question. We are not going to get into that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Get into what?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We are not going to get into--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What is it about this will that you know that you were going to tell me a minute ago?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Don't answer that question. The will is irrelevant to any issue in this case.
MR. PETROCELLI: Not if Nicole was making out a will because she feared for her life.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, you can put whatever spin you want on it, but I'm not going to let him answer that. It's irrelevant.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: How many times did Nicole make out a will
to your knowledge?
A: I know to my knowledge on numerous
occasions when we took trips, she would write stuff
down; I know to my knowledge once the kids were born,
she wrote down a broad thing about who gets what, and
I know to my knowledge Lou Brown had some papers that
he wanted her to sign then.
Q: How many wills do you know that she wrote
out?
A: You call them wills. They were like who
would get whatever. If the plane crashed or if
something happened to us, who would get what. Her
thing was totally separate than mine.
Q: She would write it out in her own
handwriting?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And she would do this every time she took
a trip?
A: No. I think she would--it was like--
I remember at one time I asked her had she upgraded
her will at some point, because she--Nicole had at
one point attained a decent wealth, close to a
million-dollar wealth, and I was asking her at one
point had she upgraded her will, and I believe when we
were splitting up, she did again.
Q: Do you know why Nicole took out Arnelle and Jason in her will on May 8, 1994?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, there is no foundation for that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know anything about that?
A: I never knew that they were in her will.
Q: So you don't know why they were taken
out?
A: I never knew that they were ever in any
will of--I don't know why they would be in any will
of Nicole's, and I was not aware that they were ever
in any will of Nicole's.
Q: Did she talk to you about making a will
out on that day?
A: No. Well--no. No. I just recall her
dad was saying and she--we were talking, and her dad
was saying something, and I felt he wanted her to come
and look at some papers, and Nicole just didn't want
to do it.
MR. PETROCELLI: This is a convenient time. We will break until 9:30.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Why don't we start at 10:00 because--I can get here at 9:30.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's fine.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume VI. The number of videotapes used was three. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 4:44.
[ENDING TIME: 4:44 P.M.]