SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS LOS ANGELES
SHARON RUFO, Plaintiff,
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON et al. Defendants
FREDRIC GOLDMAN, et al. Plaintiffs,
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al. Defendants
LOUIS H. BROWN, etc., Plaintiffs
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON Defendant
VOLUME V Continued videotaped deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard, 10th Floor, Los Angeles, California commencing at 9:51 am, on Friday, January 26, 1996, before David S. Coleman, CSR #4613 pursuant to Court Order.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Here begins videotape number 1 in the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume V, in the consolidated cases of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs. Orenthal James Simpson in the Superior Court, State of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is SC031947.
Today's date is Friday, January 26, 1996. The time is approximately 9:51. This deposition is being taken at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California and was made at the request of plaintiff, of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp.
The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed by Coleman, Haas, Martin & Schwab of Los Angeles, California.
Would counsel please identify yourselves and state whom you represent.
MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MR. MEDVENE: Edward Medvene for plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MR. GELBLUM: Peter Gelblum for Fredric Goldman.
MR. BREWER: Michael Brewer for plaintiff Sharon Rufo.
MS. MOLINARO: Yvette Molinaro for plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly for plaintiff Lou Brown.
MR. BLASIER: Robert Blasier for Mr. Simpson.
MR. LEONARD: Daniel Leonard, Mr. Simpson.
MR. BAKER: Bob Baker for OJ. Simpson.
MR.GROMAN: Arthur Groman for Fred Goldman.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Good morning, Mr. Simpson.
A: Good morning.
Q. Did you review any documents last night for this depo?
A: No.
Q: Talk to anybody other than lawyers about the deposition?
A: No.
Q: When you went up the--Withdrawn. When you came down the stairs, picked up the golf cover bag and signaled to the limousine driver and then went inside the house, did you then turn on any lights?
A: If the coach lights weren't on by then, I may have turned the coach lights on at that time.
Q: Did you turn the coach lights on before you came out the door or after you went in the house?
A: As I said, if they--possibly, if they weren't on then before then, I may have turned them on then. I don't recall..
Q: Before you actually stepped out?
A: I don't recall if I did it before or as I turned and came back in. I just don't recall.
Q: The light switch is on the inside?
A: Yeah. And I may have done that, yes.
Q: May have done what?
A: Turned on the coach lights.
Q: Before you picked up the golf bag and showed it to the limo driver or after?
A: As I told you, I'm not sure if I did it before or after, but I may have. One or the other.
Q; Was the entryway light on at that time when you came down the stairs?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: And did you turn that light on when you went in the house after you picked up the golf cover bag?
A: I may have, but I know my lamp was on, so I may not have.
Q: You have a separate lamp and a separate light in the entryway. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: So your best recollection now is that you turned the coach lights on but not the entryway light?
A: I may have.
Q: You may have.
A: Yes.
Q: You're just not sure.
A: Just not sure.
Q: And you are not sure if you turned it on before or after you came out of the house?
MR. BAKER: It's asked and answered. You covered this all--
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think I did, Mr. Baker, because I have a little notation here that I didn't. I was just trying to clarify this point.
MR. BAKER: Okay. Go on.
MR. PETROCELLI: Can you let him answer that question?
MR. BAKER: Sure. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I may have.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And you are not sure if you turned on the coach lights before or after you came out of the house. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Who was -- Withdrawn. At some point on the 13th of June when you were at the Rockingham property with Lange and your lawyers, Lange then left. Right?
A: I don't know.
Q: At some point the police were gone, and you were in your home on the evening of June 13 without anybody from LAPD there. Is that right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you were with some of your close friends and family. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Who was there that evening with you?
A: I'll just take a guess. My family, my immediate sisters and my mom
Q: I need you to just give me the names. Your mother Eunice?
A: Yes.
Q: Your sisters who?
A: Carmelita and Shirley.
Q: Yeah.
A: My brother-in-law, Benny Baker.
Q: First name?
A: Benny Baker.
Q: Benny?
A: Baker.
Q: Yes.
A: I believe members of his family may have been there. I'm not sure.
Q: Benny's married to Shirley?
A: Yes. Nieces and stuff may have been there.
Q: Their children, in other words?
A: Yes.
Q: Anyone else?
A: I believe, as the night went on, my son and my daughter.
Q: Jason and Arnelle?
A: Yes. I'm sure Cathy Randa was there. Bob Kardashian was there. And then there was just so many people coming in and out.
Q: Who came in and out?
A: I can't even recall all of them. I can't. Some of them--I think Ron Shipp was there. Joe Stellini I think I recall being there. I may have mentioned Kardashian. And there was just people coming and going.
Q: Can you remember anybody else Mr. Simpson?
A: Not right now, no.
Q: Who is Joe Stellini?
A: A friend of mine.
Q: For a number of years?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that the man who owns Stellini's?
A: Used to, yes.
Q: He doesn't own it anymore?
A: I don't think it's open anymore.
Q: You had a conversation with Ron Shipp that evening?
A: I don't recall having a conversation with Ron other than general whatever everybody was saying to me. Oh, Kato was there.
Q: Kato Kaelin?
A: Yes.
Q: Tell me what you said to Ron Shipp, Mr. Simpson.
A: I don't--Other than what everybody was asking me, how I was feeling, they were expressing their condolences, and it would have been in that vein.
Q: Shipp was expressing his condolences to you?
A: Yes.
Q: For the loss of Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: And he had known Nicole himself. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you and he ever talk alone?
A: No.
Q: Are you positive?
A: Yes.
Q: Why are you so sure of that?
A: Because my sister and my mom. l was with them all the time. When I went upstairs, it sort a was irritating that my sisters stayed with me, you know, and at times I got a little irritated.
Q: At times you got irritated about what?
A: Just irritated because you want to be alone, because I wanted to be alone and they wouldn't let me be alone.
Q: Did you ask folks to leave?
A: No.
Q: When you went upstairs, you mean to your bedroom?
A: Yes.
Q: At any time that evening was Ron Shipp upstairs with you in your bedroom?
A: I don't know. People --various people came up when they were leaving to say good-bye, and he may have been one of them.
Q: And if he came up to say good-bye in your bedroom, were you and he alone at that time?
A: If he were, no.
Q: Who was with the two of you, you and Shipp?
A: I don't know if he ever came up.
MR. BAKER: Assuming that he ever came up.
THE WITNESS: I don't know if he ever came up, so I can't say that. I just know my sister Shirley or my sister Carmelita were with me all the time. They just would not let me be alone. And my cousin -- and my brother-in-law Benny.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: They were with you all the time in the bedroom?
A: Yes.
Q: When did they leave your bedroom?
A: I don't think they ever did.
Q: They slept there with you?
A: Yes.
Q: In the same bed?
A: No.
Q: Where? On the floor?
A: No.
Q: Is there another bed in there?
A: No.
Q: Where did they sleep?
A: On the couch.
Q: In your bedroom.
A: Yes.
Q: Who slept on that couch that evening?
A: My sister Shirley and Benny. I saw them from time to time.
Q: Benny slept in the room, too?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did he sleep?
A: On the couch
Q: There are two couches?
A: It's an L-shaped couch.
Q: So the entire time you were up in your bedroom, from the moment you went up there until the moment you got up in the morning, your sister Shirley was with you. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: And was anyone else with you that entire time?
A: I don't know -- For the entire time?
Q: Yeah.
A: Oh, I don't know. I mean, there were people that came and went, as I told you before.
Q: Now, Mr. Shipp and you had a discussion that evening about a polygraph test?
A: I don't recall that, no.
Q: Is it your memory that that conversation did not occur?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you say to Ron Shipp something to the effect like, "How long does it take for the blood work to come back" or "blood tests to come back"?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you have any conversation with Shipp about blood tests or DNA tests?
A: No.
Q: You're pretty clear on that?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ask Shipp any questions about polygraph tests?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever taken a polygraph test?
A: No.
Q: I was going to say, since Nicole's death, have you taken a polygraph test?
A: No.
Q: Did you and Shipp discuss anything about polygraph tests?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell Ron Shipp, in reference to your statement to Vannatter and Lange about weird thoughts, that you were having weird thoughts that you might kill Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell Ron Shipp that you had had a dream about killing Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did you say anything to Ron Shipp about dreams that evening?
A: No.
Q: Did you say anything to Ron Shipp about having weird thoughts about Nicole?
A: No.
Q: The Ron Shipp you knew was a former police officer. Correct?
A: I know --I knew he couldn't get back on the force, yes.
Q: Why did you just add that? I didn't ask you that.
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, Mr. Simpson, you appear to have some animosity toward Mr. Shipp. Is that correct?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that either. He doesn't appear to have anything. Maybe he does in your eyes but not in mine.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you have animosity towards Mr. Shipp right now?
A: I feel sorry for Ron Shipp, yes.
Q: Explain what you mean.
A: I feel sorry that he's a troubled person, and I tried to help him before because he had some problems, and I tried to help him, and I feel the same way about him now.
Q: Tell me what problems he has that you feel sorry for.
A: Well, the problems I knew he had was drugs and alcohol, and now obviously I don't know. I haven't seen him in a year and a half, two years.
Q: When did he have the drugs and alcohol problem that caused you to feel sorry for him?
A: Previous to these incidences.
Q: When was the last time that you knew or believed that he had a drug or alcohol problem.?
A: Roughly a week or so before Nicole's murders.
Q: How did you find that out?
A: Because he was at my gate.
Q: Uninvited?
A: Yes.
Q: Which gate?
A: The Ashford gate.
Q: How did you see him there?
A: I didn't see him
Q: How do you know he was there?
A:: He was on my intercom.
Q: He buzzed?
A: Yes.
Q: What did he say?
A: He asked if he could use my Jacuzzi.
Q: What did you say?
A: Told him, "Ron, I was in bed."
Q: What time was it?
A: I don't know. At night.
Q: Were you alone?
A: Yes.
Q: Was the housekeeper there?
A: Maybe. I'm not sure.
Q: What did he then say?
A: He told me he had a big blond, a "Nicole type." quote, unquote. "You got to see this girl, OJ. Could he use the Jacuzzi told him I didn't think it was on. He told me it was on because he had been there earlier.
Q: When you say you don't think it is on, you can simply turn it on, can't you?
A: Yeah.
Q: So then what happened?
A: He kept saying, "I owe you, Juice. Please, man, I owe you. You got to see this girl."
Q: What does that mean, he owes you?
A: I guess if he owes me a favor. He will owe me a favor.
Q: Oh, he will owe you if you give him this favor?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. Then what happened?
A: Well, after he told me it was on, I pushed the gate button for him to come in and told him to watch the dog.
Q: Did he tell you that he knew that the Jacuzzi was on from earlier that day?
A: Yes.
Q: Had he been out to your house?
A: Evidently.
Q: Did you know that?
A: No.
Q: Did he have access to your property?
A: No.
Q: How did he get on the property earlier that day?
A: Well, one of the complaints that I've had previous that I had Cathy discuss with him through, because both Michelle and Gigi had concerns about it, is that he would show up at times, climb the wall and bring whoever group he was playing tennis with without telling anybody. When I was out of town also.
Q: What wall would be climb?
A: The Ashford wall.
Q: Right next to this gate where the --
A: I don't know. I wasn't there to see what part of the wall he climbed.
Q: You had told him he could come on your property and play tennis. Right?
A: Only if he called first. As a matter of fact, I actually had Cathy have a conversation with him about that.
Q: When did that conversation occur?
A: In and around that time, and on previous times she's had to tell him,"Ron, you just can't show up at his house."
Q: Mr. Simpson, when you said you wanted him to call first, did you also want someone else to be home when he arrived?
A: I would prefer that, yes.
Q: So someone could let him in?
A: No. So that -- I just don't like a lot of people on my property if I'm out of town, and I was gone most of the time, so -- and the housekeepers didn't --especially Gigi, because she was brand-new, she didn't know how to handle it, and she had mentioned it -- evidently she had mentioned it to Cathy, and then Cathy had mentioned it to me.
Q: Did you tell Mr. Shipp that if no one was home and he wanted to play, he could jump the wall or --
A: No.
Q: or get on the property?
A: No.
Q: So your understanding of your deal with him is that if -- that he shouldn't be jumping the wall and getting on the property to play tennis. Is that right?
A: I had no deal with him. I don't think anybody should jump my wall without my permission.
Q: And you told him so. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Through Randa.
A: Right. And I told him myself. This was something that had happened before.
Q: Now, when he came in and used the Jacuzzi, did you see him that evening?
A: Yes.
Q: You were in bed. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You came down to see him?
A: No.
Q: Tell me --
A: At one point I did.
Q: What happened?
A: He went to my intercom system out back, buzzed me --
Q: From the Jacuzzi?
A: Well, in the backyard. And buzzed me and said, "Juice, please, man, you got to help me out here. I need a bottle of wine." I think I was speaking with Cathy Randa at that time and --
Q: On the phone?
A: I said, "I'm on the phone, Ron." And he said once again this whole thing, and he described this girl as a "Nicole type." "You got to see her."
And I said, "Ron, I don't even know if I have any wine." He said, "Ah, come on, Juice, please, man." So I got up. I went downstairs. I opened one of my patio doors. He walked in. I told him to look in the bar to see if there was some wine. I found a bottle that came in some -- one of the Christmas packages or some package somebody had sent me, and I opened it and --I gave it to him and, as he was opening it, he said, "Man, you should go see her." And I walked out back, and she was I wouldn't say a Nicole type, but she was a big blond, real tall, I would say 5-10,5-11 blond girl. And she was in the Jacuzzi, and she was talking about what a great property and that she could get used to being here, and asked me to get in the Jacuzzi. And then Ron was coming out at that period of time and said, "Come on, man, why don't you join us? And I said, "No, man, I got to get up early in the morning," and I went back upstairs.
Q: Were you dressed?
A: Had a robe on.
Q: What color?
A: Dark robe.
Q: The robe you usually wore?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that robe taken by the police?
A: No.
Q: Where was it?
A: On the back door of my closet.
Q: Is that a terry cloth robe?
A; Yes, basically.
Q: When you wear it, do you wear it open or closed?
A: It depends. Obviously I didn't have it open because that girl was there, but I don't know. Sometimes open. Sometimes closed.
Q: When you close it, do you tie it?
A: Yes.
Q: How far down does it go?
A: Almost--long robe, to my mid calf, I would say.
Q: How long have you had that robe?
A: Long time.
Q: Where did you get it?
A: Who knows.
Q: Who gave it to you?
A: Who knows.
Q: Did you buy it?
A: I doubt it. I never go to the store and buy robes, no.
Q: What's a "Nicole type" mean?
A: I would assume he was saying an athletic blond.
Q: She didn't strike you as an athletic blond?
A: She did, yes.
Q: You said she didn't appear to be a Nicole type to you.
A: In my opinion Nicole was much more attractive than she was, but outside of that, she was a big blond.
Q: So a "Nicole type" to you met an attractive, athletic blond?
A: Yeah, I think if I had to describe Nicole myself, I thought she was a gorgeous, athletic blond, yes.
Q: When you went upstairs, is that the last you saw of Shipp?
A: Yes.
Q: And how did you understand he would exit the property that evening?
A: Out the gate, I would presume.
Q: Did he know about how to get in and out of the Ashford gate by pushing it open, as you had described?
A: I would assume so, but he also would have known probably to push the button.
Q: Did Ron Shipp see you in the robe?
A: Yes.
Q: What is this woman's name?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Did you ever see her again?
A: No.
Q: Is that the first time you had ever seen her?
A: As far as I know, yes.
Q: You said you don't go to the store to buy robes. Do you buy clothing in the stores?
A: Yes.
Q: What stores did you shop in to buy clothing three years before Nicole's death?
A: I don't know. Hundreds of them.
Q: Five years before?
A: Hundreds of stores.
Q: What clothing did you go and buy?
A: Shirts, shoes, pants, suits.
Q: You buy in Los Angeles clothing stores?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you ever make arrangements with the store to go there to shop when no one else is around?
A: Never.
Q: When it's closed or after hours?
A: Never have in my life.
Q: Before Nicole's death, when was the last time you had purchased clothing in a store? Do you remember?
A: No.
Q: When you shop for clothing, do you shop alone?
A: It depends. If somebody's with me, I'm with someone. If somebody's not, I'm not with anyone.
Q: Did Paula ever buy you clothing from time to time?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: They knew your sizes?
A: Of some things. yeah.
Q: Did you ever shop at any major department stores?
A: Yes.
Q: Name some.
A: May Company, Emporium, Macy's
Q: Emporium?
A: Yeah. In New York, Bloomingdale's. What's the other big -- Gumbel's, Gump's --
Q: Gumbel's?
A: Yeah. Gimbel's, Gumbel's.
Q: Gimbel's.
A: Gimbel's, Gump's, Neiman-Marcus. You name it.
Q: Did Nicole ever shop in these stores for you?
A: I would assume so.
Q: Did Nicole ever shop in Bloomingdale's in New York for you?
A: Possibly.
Q: Did you and she ever shop together at Bloomingdale's in New York?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Paula ever shop in Bloomingdale's in New York for you?
A: For me?
Q: Yeah.
A: I don't know.
Q: With you?
A: Yes.
Q: Your apartment in New York is not far from Bloomingdale's in New York. Is that right?
A: Correct.
Q: Where exactly is your place in New York City?
A: It's on 3rd and 65th.
Q: 3rd and 65th Street?
A: Yes.
Q: Where is the Bloomingdale's where you shopped and Nicole shopped and Paula shopped?
A: It's on 59th, 60th, between Lexington and 3rd.
Q: What clothing have you purchased at that Bloomingdale's in New York?
A: Sweaters, suits -- no, I don't know if I ever bought a suit there. Overcoats. Probably slacks, shoes. That's all I can recall.
Q: What items of clothing did Nicole purchase for you at Bloomingdale's?
A: I have no idea.
Q: You don't know?
A: No.
Q: And what about Paula? What did she purchase at that Bloomingdale's store for you?
A: I don't know if she ever bought me anything from Bloomingdale's.
Q: What kind of shoes did you purchase at Bloomingdale's in New York?
A: Dress shoes, and at one point think I bought some winter boots.
Q: Winter boots?
A: Yeah.
Q: What kind of boots?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know the name?
A: No.
Q: You're familiar with clothing manufacturers, aren't you?
A: Yes.
Q: You're a fashion-conscious person. Right? A Yes.
Q: You're in the public eye. Right? That's part of your career. Right?
A: Being m the public eye?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: You like to dress nicely. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you can't tell me the name of the company that made your winter boots?
A: Exactly.
Q: Were they a brand name?
A: I don't know.
Q: What about your dress shoes?
A: What do you mean?
Q: Were they brand-name shoes?
A: I don't know.
Q: What kind of dress shoes did you typically buy?
A: Loafers.
Q: Who made those loafers?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know?
A: True.
Q: You can't name a single company that made loafers that you owned?
A: I've never walked into a shoe store in my life and asked for a pair of shoes by name, unless they were tennis shoes.
Q: Well, I didn't ask that.
A: Well --
Q: I didn't ask whether you asked for it by name. I asked whether you knew the name of any of the ] dress shoes that you have ever purchased.
MR. BAKER: At the time he purchased them? Subsequently?
MR. PETROCELLI: Any time, Mr. Baker.
THE WITNESS: I believe I've worn some Ballys. I believe I've had shoes called Ferragamos. I believe I've had -- I don't know if they would have been called Stacy Adams. I don't know if wing tips are a brand name or not or a style.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I am not limiting my question to loafers, by the way. Any kind of shoe.
A: Other than that, I couldn't tell you. Reeboks, Nikes, Puma. I can't think of the name of the big golf company shoe right now.
MR. BAKER: Foot-Joy.
THE WITNESS: Foot-Joy.
MR. PETROCELLI: One second.
Q: Reeboks, Nikes, Puma.
A: Foot-Joy.
Q: Foot-Joy?
A: Yeah.
Q: Ballys, Ferragamo, Stacy Adams, wing tips.
A: Yeah, I'm sure I've owned those type of shoes before.
Q: Wing tips is a style of shoe --
A: That's what I don't know, if it's a brand name or a type of style. I don't know.
Q: Can you think of any other brand names of shoes that you have worn?
A: No
Q: Are these the only brand-name shoes you have worn?
A: I wouldn't know.
Q: Have you worn shoes that you did not know the manufacturer of or the brand name?
A: I would assume so.
Q: The answer is you have?
A: I don't know. I would assume so. Since I don't know the names of the shoes, they could have been those. They could have been some other name.
Q: Including Bruno Maglis. Correct?
A: That would be in there, yes. I wouldn't know. I've never looked at -- I've never seen a pair of Bruno Magli shoes in my closet, and I've never looked for them.
Q: But Bruno Magli shoes would be in there. Correct?
MR. BAKER: In where?
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I've never -- the only pair of --
MR. PETROCELLI: That's what he said, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: But in where? Your question --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Bruno Magli shoes would be included in shoes that you have worn that you did not know the manufacturer of, the brand name.
A: That's not correct at all. That's not correct at all. That's not what you asked either. That's not what you asked either.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me see the testimony, please. Let's not get excited.
Q: "Question: I would" -- Let me go the one before. Let me ask you this. Let's go back--
MR. BAKER: Let's go back. Let's read these things.
MR. PETROCELLI: I choose not to.
MR. BAKER: I choose to.
MR. PETROCELLI: It totally supports what said, but I choose not to. Would you like to have it read?
MR. BAKER: Yes. I don't care what you think totally supports--
MR. PETROCELLI: Would you like me to read it, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: No. I would like David to read it.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, David, you read it to Mr. Baker.
(Record read from Page 1301, Line 21 through Page 1302, Line 9.)
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
MR. BAKER: I don't think it supports what you said, but that's in the eyes of the beholder.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't expect you to agree.
Q: There are some shoes -- Withdrawn. There are shoes that you have worn --Withdrawn. I want to limit my questions prior to Nicole's death. Okay?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: There are shoes that you wore prior to Nicole's death that you did not know the name of the manufacturer or the brand name. Correct?
A: Yes, correct.
Q: So you would not know whether such shoes that you did not know the name of were Bruno Maglis. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Has anyone purchased any shoes -- Did Nicole ever purchase shoes for you?
A: No.
Q: Did anyone ever purchase shoes for you?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: USC, the Buffalo Bills, and I can't think of anyone else.
MR. BAKER: 49ers, Juice.
THE WITNESS: 49ers. No. By then I was supplying my own shoes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Shoes for personal use and home use, I mean--
A: No.
Q: -- not athletic shoes.
A: No
Q: No one but you bought shoes for yourself. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that true for five years before Nicole's death?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever buy shoes that you knew were Bruno Magli shoes?
A: No.
Q: How do you know that?
A: Because I know, if Bruno Magli makes shoes that look like the shoes they had in court that's involved in this case, I would have never owned those ugly-ass shoes.
Q: You thought those were ugly-ass shoes?
A: Yes.
Q: Why were they ugly-ass shoes?
A: Because in my mind they were.
Q: What about them was ugly, Mr. Simpson?
A: The look of them, the style of them.
Q: What about the style?
A: I don't know. They were ugly to me. Aesthetically I felt they were ugly, and I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and to me they were ugly shoes.
Q: Were they dress shoes?
A: They didn't appear to be.
Q: What did they appear to be?
A: All-purpose casual shoes.
Q: Did you own prior to June 12, 1994 all-purpose casual shoes?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you own any dark all-purpose casual shoes?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't remember the all-purpose casual shoes that you owned as of June 12, 1994?
A: Well, it's --"all-purpose" is what throws me.
Q: That was your word. I'm using your word.
A: Yeah. I would say no, I didn't.
Q: You didn't what?
A: Wear the type of shoe -- the type of shoe I saw in court. The Bruno Magli shoe I saw in court seemed to be the type of shoe you could wear in anything but rain. To me that's what they looked to be.
Q: Why couldn't you wear it in rain?
A: They didn't look like they were waterproof to me. But they also looked like shoes you can wear on a normal day also.
Q: And you have shoes like that. Right?
A: No. I think the type of shoes that I wear like that, I wear for rain and cold.
Q: What casual shoes did you own as of June 12, 1994?
A: I consider all my loafers casual shoes.
Q: Loafers?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you own any shoes that were not loafers that were casual shoes of the type those Bruno Maglis were that you saw in court?
A: No.
Q: What I mean, "of the type," I don't mean that you couldn't wear them in rain or could wear them in rain, but just generally casual shoes, all-purpose casual shoes, excluding like fancy dress shoes..
A: No.
Q: So all of your casual shoes that you owned as of June 12, 1994 were loafers.
A: Yes.
Q: Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes.
Q: You owned no tie shoes?
A: I do have tie shoes, yes.
Q: But they're all dress shoes?
A: For me they're dress shoes. When I wear tie shoes, they're for dress.
Q: How many pairs of shoes did you own as of June 1994?
A: A lot.
Q: How many?
A: I don't know.
Q: Give me your best approximation?
A: 20 to 40.
Q: Are you including the golf shoes?
A: I guess you could throw those in there, yeah.
Q: Would that increase the 20 to 40?
A: I don't think so. Just all shoes, 20 to 40 pairs of shoes.
Q: Let's exclude golf shoes. How many shoes did you own as of June 12, 1994?
A: I have absolutely no idea.
Q: Let's exclude Reeboks and Nike and other tennis shoes. By tennis shoes I mean shoes that you could play tennis or basketball with.
A: I don't know.
Q: How many shoes, excluding athletic shoes, did you own as of June 12, 1994?
A: I don't know.
Q: Give me your best approximation, Mr. Simpson.
A: I can't. I can't.
Q: 20 to 40?
A: Possibly.
Q: Now, of those 20 to 40 shoes, how many were loafers?
A: I couldn't tell you.
Q: What is your best approximation?
A: I couldn't give you an approximation. I would say the majority of them.
Q: Of the 20 to 40 shoes. how many were dress shoes?
A: I would say--I don't know.
Q: Give me your best approximation?
A: I can't. I can't. I can't do it.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I just can't recall.
Q: Where were these shoes kept in your home?
A: My closet.
Q: The closet you've already described?
A: Yeah. Now, you're talking about LA. Right?
Q: Well did you have shoes in other locations?
A: Yes.
Q: Where?
A: New York and Lagoon.
Q: Have you ever bought shoes in Bloomingdale's in New York and taken them back to Los Angeles?
A: Yes.
Q: Including New York, Lagoon and Los Angeles, these shoes that you owned were roughly 20 to 40?
A: I'm just guessing, yes.
Q: And all the shoes in Los Angeles were kept in your closet. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: In your bedroom.
A: Yes.
Q: No shoes were in the garage or anywhere else. Is that right?
A: They may have been.
MR. BAKER: Excluding golf shoes again.
MR. PETROCELLI: Excluding athletic shoes, golf shoes, yeah.
THE WITNESS: They may have been, but I don't know. But the majority-- the shoes that I wear are in my closet.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Was there anything about the color of the Bruno Magli shoes that you saw in court that you said made them ugly?
A: I don't know. They were a bluish green, I believe, but no -- maybe. I guess aesthetically it was the whole thing together, they were not really attractive shoes.
Q: It wasn't the color necessarily. Right?
A: No.
Q: Was it the style of shoe?
A: For the most part, yes.
Q: And what about the style?
A: Just aesthetically. I don't know. I looked at it. I didn't like it. I can look at a suit that's made by the same company and think it's ugly and look at another one and think it's gorgeous. To me, aesthetically I didn't like the shoe. Nothing specific. I didn't study it. I looked at it, and I didn't like the shoe.
Q: Had you ever heard of Bruno Magli shoes as of June 12, 1994? A No
Q: Did--The name meant nothing to you? A : Nothing.
Q: Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: So if someone said "Bruno Magli" to you as of June 12, 1994, you would have no idea what that meant or what that referred to. Is that right?
A: That's correct.
Q: Now, you said the majority of your shoes were loafers.
A: Yes.
Q: And the others were all shoes that tied. Correct?
A: For the most part, yes.
Q: Describe those shoes to me.
A: They look like regular tie-up shoes.
Q: Name all the brand-name shoes that you owned or the manufacturers of all the 20 to 40 shoes that you owned.
A: I don't know.
Q: You can't do that?
A: No.
Q: There's too many?
A: I don't know the names of the shoes.
Q: You have no recollection?
A: That's correct.
Q: Can you positively... What size shoe does your son Jason wear?
A: I don't know.
Q: Does he ever wear your shoes?
A: He did in the past, yes.
Q: And did you ever wear his shoes?
A: No.
Q: Not once?
A: Never.
Q: When you said, "He did in the past," what do you mean by that,
A: In the past a couple of times when he was a teenager, he used to steal my clothes from time to time.
Q: In the five years before Nicole's death, did he wear your shoes?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Did you ever buy any gloves at -- did you ever buy any gloves?
A: I'm sure I did, yes.
Q: You used gloves in the course of your work for television. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: For example, in inclement weather at football games you might have to wear gloves when you're on the field interviewing athletes. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Or holding an umbrella. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: What kind of gloves did you own for that purpose within the five years before Nicole's death?
A: I don't know.
Q: Can you describe them to me?
A: Nice gloves, blue--black gloves, brown gloves basically, and maybe once in a while some that's tan in there.
Q: Did you buy those gloves yourself?
A: I'm sure I have over the years, yes.
Q: Did Nicole ever buy any for you?
A: I don't ever recall her buying me gloves, no.
Q: Did Nicole ever give you gloves for a gift?
A: Not that I ever recall, no.
Q: Did anyone ever give you gloves for a gift five years prior to Nicole's death?
A: Not that I ever--well, no, not that I ever recall, no.
Q: Can you positively say that Nicole never bought you gloves as a gift?
A: I don't recall her ever buying me gloves as a gift. Yes, I think I can say that, yes.
Q: You think you can say positively that she never did?
A: Yes.
Q: Your size was extra large. Right?
A: It depends.
Q: Depends on what?
A: Depends on the glove.
Q: Some of the gloves were extra large sizes. Right?
A: I would assume so.
Q: You owned gloves as of June 12, 1994, that were extra large size. Correct?
A: I'm sure, yes.
Q: How many pairs of gloves did you own as of June 12, 1994?
A: I don't know.
Q: Give me your best estimate.
A: I couldn't.
Q: More than 50?
A: No.
Q: More than ]0?
A: I don't know.
Q: More than five?
A: I don't know.
Q: Why don't you know?
A: Because I lose gloves, and people -- NBC would have to get me gloves from time to time because I would lose gloves, and I didn't know if they were in New York or in LA. or where they might have been, so I don't really know what gloves I had.
Q: Let's talk about gloves at Rockingham. How many gloves did you own and have at Rockingham as of June 12, 1994?
A: I don't know.
Q: More than five?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Did you have so many that you can't remember? Is that what you're saying?
A: I just don't know what glove -- what ski gloves I had, what gloves are there. I didn't go in my closet and look for gloves and count gloves.
Q: You wouldn't use ski gloves for work. Right?
A: At times I did, yes.
Q: You did?
A: Yes.
Q: You mean--
MR. BAKER: Have you been to Buffalo, Dan?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
Q: Where were all the gloves kept in your house at Rockingham that you owned as of June 12, 1994?
A: That I know of?
Q: Yeah.
A: In my closet, in another closet outside of my main closet. You're talking about Rockingham.
Q: Yes.
A: My closet and my closet outside of my main closet. There's another closet that I keep mostly ski equipment.
Q: Had you used the ski gloves for work within five years before Nicole's death?
A: Those ski gloves?
Q: Yes.
A: Possibly.
Q: The ones at your Rockingham house?
A: Possibly.
Q: Where is that closet? Is it outside your bedroom?
A: No. It's in my bedroom, yes.
Q: And the other closet is the big walk-in closet that apparently is cavernous. Right?
A: Yes
Q: And there is a place where gloves are filed--not filed. I've been working too long. A place where gloves are maintained there?
MR. BAKER: You mean in the big closet or the space next to the big closet?
MR. PETROCELLI: The big closet.
MR. BAKER: Okay.
THE WITNESS: I think there's a drawer that they put my gloves in, yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Who is "they"? A Normally my housekeepers.
Q: Where do they get the gloves from?
A: If I brought them from New York -- when I get wet clothes, I bring back from New York, and they may have -- may not have been any gloves involved in that, they unpack for me and put them in various drawers and hang up various clothes.
Q: Now, focusing on gloves, where would your housekeepers put your gloves?
A: In a drawer. I can't recall if it's the top or second drawer in my bedroom.
Q: Bedroom closet?
A: Yes.
Q: And then is there another area where they would put gloves or where gloves were kept?
A: Yes.
Q: Where is that?
A: In a closet outside of my cavernous closet, as you described it.
Q: Anyplace else?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: What were the names of the gloves or the manufacturers or brand names of the gloves that you owned as of June 12, 1994?
A: I don't know.
Q: Can't identify any?
A: No.
Q: Whatever they were, you just didn't know. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Were any of them Aris light Isotoner gloves?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know one way or the other. Right?
A: Exactly.
Q: In other words, they could have been.
A: They could have been, yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me mark some exhibits. I will mark what was trial Exhibit 606-E as Exhibit 54. I will mark as Exhibit 55 trial Exhibit 606-F. I will mark as Exhibit 56 trial Exhibit 1371.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibits 56 through 58 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I have given you exhibits 54, 55 and 56. We have to take 56 out of the wrapper so you can see the gloves. Now, looking first at exhibits 54 and 55, do you see the gloves that you're wearing in those photographs?
A: Yes.
Q: And you saw these photographs in court. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And those are brown leather gloves. Correct?
A: They appear to be, yes.
Q: The one in Exhibit 56 is black. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: A pair of black leather gloves. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: First of all, do you know the year in which the photos were taken here that's exhibits 54 and 55?
A: No.
Q: Can you give me your best estimate of the year in which you were conducting the interview that's depicted in those photos?
A: '90.
Q: 1990?
A: Yes.
Q: How do you know it's '90?
A: Because Sam Wysch is in Cincinnati Bengal -- I don't know it's '90, I'm guessing it's '90. but he's in Cincinnati Bengal clothes.
Q: So he would have had to be the coach of the Bengals. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that Boomer Esiason--
A: Yes.
Q:--next to him? Did I impress you, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: You did.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And what about the Exhibit 56?
MR. BAKER: But you've been doing that for four and a half days.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What year is that, Mr. Simpson?A: I have no idea.
Q: Can you date it at all?
A: After--1989 or after.
Q: How do you know date that?
A: Because I'm working for NBC.
Q: When did you begin to work for him?
A: 1989.
Q: Do you know where the photo was taken, Mr. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Can you tell by looking at the coat, the tie, anything like that?
A: No.
Q: Or the gloves?
A: No.
Q: Or the background, which you can't really see too well in this picture?
A: Correct.
Q: Now, focusing on exhibits 54 and 55, where you are wearing the brown leather gloves, do you know what the make of those gloves is?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if they're Aris Isotoner gloves?
A: No.
Q: Would you have recognized Aris Isotoner gloves?
A: No.
Q: Do you know where you got the gloves that are depicted in exhibits 54 and 55?
A: No.
Q: Do you know who gave them to you?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether you bought them?
A: I'm sure I must have, unless NBC did.
Q: Why do you say you "must have"?
A: Because I don't remember anybody else buying me gloves but NBC.
Q: Did NBC buy them for you?
A: Possibly.
Q: Do you know?
A: No.
Q: Have you looked into that?
A: No
Q: Have you asked NBC if they did?
A: No.
Q: What is the basis on which you say NBC possibly might have given you those brown leather gloves?
A: Because on a few occasions we were in cold weather and I had lost my gloves, and the producer of whatever the show was would get a runner or somebody to get me some gloves, and on a few occasions the guy who pulls the string, the electrician, would give me his gloves.
Q: And would you give them back after you completed the -- your use of them?
A: If the electrician gave me his, I believe I gave him his back. The other ones, if they bought them for me, I just kept them.
Q: Looking at the gloves in exhibits 54 and 55, is it your testimony that those gloves were given to you by an electrician?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if they were?
A: I would say no. I would say no.
Q: Those were gloves that you knew that you owned yourself. Correct?
A: Well I'm saying I know the electrician didn't get me these.
Q: However you got those gloves, those were gloves that were yours and remained yours. Correct?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: I am talking about the gloves in 54 and 55.
A: I would think so, yes.
Q: And the same thing for Exhibit 56. The black gloves you are wearing in Exhibit 56 were gloves that you owned. Correct?
A: I would think so, yes.
Q: And the black gloves in Exhibit 56 are not gloves you got from an electrician. Correct?
A: I would believe they're not.
Q: Okay.
A: I don't think so. They were pretty beat up.
Q: Now looking at the gloves in exhibits 54 and 55, the brown gloves--
A: Yes.
Q: --can you tell me where you got those gloves?
A: No.
Q: Can you tell me how you got those gloves?
A: No.
Q: Can you tell me in what city you obtained those gloves?
A: No.
Q: In what store?
A: No.
Q: Can you tell me how much they cost?
A: No.
Q: Can you tell me when you acquired them?
A: No.
Q: How you acquired them?
A: No.
Q: Can you tell me where they are now?
A: No.
Q: Are they in your closet?
A: I haven't seen them no.
Q: Have you checked?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I assume the police checked.
Q: Did the police find them?
A: I don't know.
Q: As of June l 2, were those gloves in your closet?
MR. BAKER: And you are talking about in Los Angeles. Correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Anywhere.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Why don't you know?
A: Because I wasn't looking for gloves on June 12.
Q: So as of June 12, you were not looking for gloves on June 12?
A: No. The weather here was very good.
Q: As of June 12, 1994, do you know where the gloves that are depicted in exhibits 54 and 55 were located?
A: No.
Q: If they were located in Rockingham, they would be in the areas you previously described: On the second floor in or near your bedroom. Correct?
A: I would imagine so, yes.
Q: Do you know what size those gloves are in exhibits 54 and 55?
A: No.
Q: Did you own gloves like these depicted in exhibits 54 and 55 on or about June 12, 1994?
A: I don't know.
Q: Why don't you know?
A: Because I wasn't looking for gloves.
Q: But did you know whether or not as of June 12, 1994 you owned gloves like the ones in exhibits 54 and 55?
A: No, I don't know.
Q: Can you positively say that you did not own those gloves as of June 12, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Can you tell us where you got the gloves depicted in Exhibit 56?
A: No.
Q: Can you tell us how you got them>
A: No.
Q: When you got them?
A: No.
Q: Where you got them?
A: No.
Q: Can you tell us who gave them to you?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Assuming somebody gave them to him.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Can you tell me, if you bought them, where you bought them?
A: No.
Q: How much you paid?
A: No.
Q: Can you tell me where they were located as of June 12, 1994?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Assuming that he--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Can you tell me, if they were at Rockingham, would they be in the areas that you described at or near your bedroom?
A: I would assume so.
Q: Did you own gloves -- did you own those gloves depicted in Exhibit 56 as of June 12, 1994?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you own gloves like the ones in Exhibit 56 as of June 12, 1994?
A: I don't know.
Q: Can you positively say you did not own the gloves depicted in Exhibit 56 as of June 12, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did you own more than one pair of gloves as of June 12, 1994?
A: You told me not to assume, so I can't assume. So I don't know how to answer that.
Q: You don't know whether you owned more than one pair of gloves as of June 12, 1994?
A: Well, you told me not to assume, so I can't -- I don't know how to--
Q: Do you believe you did?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you believe that you owned more than one pair of gloves as of June 12, 1994 like the ones depicted in Exhibit 54 and 55?
A: Like them?
Q: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Brown leather gloves.
THE WITNESS: Or black gloves. Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And like the black gloves depicted in 56?
A: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Getting a lot of free legal advice here.
MR. BAKER: And you were critical of me for passing notes yesterday. Come on.
MR. KELLY: No one said it was free, Dan.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, do you know what sizes the gloves are in exhibit -- depicted in exhibits 54 and 55?
A: No.
Q: Extra large?
A: I don't know.
Q: That was your normal size, right, for gloves of the type depicted in Exhibit 54 and Exhibit 55?
A: I can't say that. I can't answer that.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I don't know what the gloves were.
Q: You liked tight-fitting gloves, didn't you?
A: Not necessarily, no.
Q: But for use in work you did. Right?
A: Not necessarily. I liked warm gloves.
Q: Warm gloves and gloves that fit snugly. Correct?
A: You want them to fit, yes.
Q: You don't want gloves for purposes of work, when you are holding a microphone and so forth, that are loose and you can't get sufficient dexterity. Correct?
A: If they're not warm, I don't want to wear them.
Q: But you are not going to wear big, loose gloves that are warm. Right?
A: I have, yes.
Q: But you normally didn't. Right?
A: I wore warm gloves.
Q: You wore warm gloves that fit snugly. Right?
A: If they fit, they fit. If they don't fit, they don't fit. I don't know what "snugly" means.
Q: Seems like I've heard that before.
MR. BAKER: Then you must have quit.
THE WITNESS: You must have quit, yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: I have a different theory about that it. Anyway...
Q: Those gloves that you see in exhibits 54 and 55 fit you. Correct?
A: They appear to, yes.
Q: And the glove in Exhibit 56 fit you. Correct?
A: Better, it appears, yes.
Q: What was the size in Exhibit 56?
A: I don't know.
Q: What's your best estimate?
A: XL, XXL.
Q: "XL" means extra large. Correct?
A: Yes. "XXL" means XXL.
Q: Double extra large.
A: Yes.
Q: What about the glove sizes in Exhibit 54?
A: Be my same guess.
Q: Extra large or double extra large?
A: Yes.
Q: Why double extra large?
A: Because some gloves I have to wear double XL.
Q: Which gloves?
A: Golf gloves.
Q: Golf gloves?
A: Yes.
Q: Let me show you as the next exhibit in order, 57, a picture of some gloves that are currently in the possession of LAPD SID, Scientific Investigation Division. Same thing with Exhibit 58. Same thing with Exhibit 59. These are all pictures of gloves at SID. Same thing with Exhibit 60. Exhibit 61, Exhibit 62, Exhibit 63 and Exhibit 64.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibits 57 through 64 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, I have shown you exhibits 57 through 64, which are copies of photographs in the possession of LAPD's SID taken from your residence at Rockingham. Do you recognize these gloves?
A: From the pictures, yes.
Q: They are gloves that you owned as of June 12, 1994. Correct?
A: Well, I recognize them from seeing them in court. I would not have any independent recognition of these gloves if I hadn't seen them in court and it was purported that they were mine.
Q: In other words, as of June 12, 1994, you owned these gloves, but you didn't have any particular recollection of them. Is that right?
A: As of June 12th, I have no recollection of them. They showed them to me in court and said they were from my house and--yeah.
Q: Looking at the gloves, you don't have any reason to believe that they were not your gloves. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. And do you see that the sizing of these gloves is extra large?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: "The sizing of these gloves," I see on one--
MR. PETROCELLI: Which one, Mr. Baker? On the back?
MR. BAKER: I see it on 58, but I don't see it on anything else. I may have missed it. Okay, I think that shows the same glove, right. Yeah, it shows the same glove. at least it would so appear.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Where were these gloves maintained at your house on Rockingham? Do you know?
A: No. If I had to guess -- no, you don't want me to guess.
Q: Do you know where you got each of these pairs of gloves?
A: No.
Q: Do you know how you got them?
A: No.
Q:: Do you know the manufacturer of them?
A: No.
Q: Do you know when you got them?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether you used any of these gloves for work?
A: No.
Q: Do you know how old each of these pairs of gloves are?
A: No.
Q: Are these all the gloves -- Well, withdrawn.
MR. BAKER: Can we take a short break?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Can I correct something on the record also?
MR. BAKER: Sure, go ahead.
THE WITNESS: My son kept ski clothes at my house also, so there is a possibility that those which appear to be ski gloves could have possibly been a pair of his.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Can you look through the photographs and tell me which ones you're referring to, Mr. Simpson?
A: The ones that look more like ski gloves. But these (Indicating) could be, too. I don't know. All of them. All of them.
Q: I'm embarrassed to say that I don't know what ski gloves look like because I'm not a skier, but Mr. Baker is pointing to Exhibit --
A: I would say all of them.
Q: Mr. Baker pointed to 62 and 65. Now, are you saying, Mr. Simpson, all of the gloves are ski gloves?
A: Could be, yes. Yes.
Q: So you are saying none of these gloves was yours?
A: No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that there is a possibility that they could be my son's and there's -- obviously they could be mine . I don't know.
Q: They could be yours. Right?
A: Very well. Could be. They're in my house.
Q: You don't know for a fact that they're your son's. Right?
A: No. I just want to alert you that there is that possibility, but if they are in my closet, they should have been mine.
Q: As Mr. Baker has reminded us, anything is possible. We can take a break now.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:55.
(Recess.)
(Plaintiffs' Exhibits 65 through 70 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately l 1:26.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, off the record I premarked exhibits 65 through 70. You have those photographs in front of you. They are pictures of what?
A: This looks like what has been described as a watch cap, all blue or black, and this appears to be--well, those. I don't know if you said both names.
Q: It looks like two different watch caps here?
A: Yes.
Q: Exhibits 68, 69 and 70 are a blue watch cap?
A: Yeah.
Q: And 66--
A: Blue or black, I guess. I can't tell from these photos.
Q: 65, 66 and 67 appear to be like a black-and-white watch cap?
A: Yeah, or blue and white, one of those.
Q: These, I will represent to you, are pictures taken of watch caps at the LAPD's SID facility and apparently taken from your home. Do you own these two watch caps?
A: I can't--I don't know.
Q: As of June 12, 1994, did you own the watch caps depicted in exhibits 65 through 70?
A: Yeah, I don't know.
Q: Did you own watch caps as of June 12, 1994?
A: We get to that you don't want me to assume thing. We get to that. so I don't know.
Q: Well, when you say "assume," do you believe you had hats of the sort or caps of the sort depicted in exhibits 65 through 70 as of June 12, 1994?
A: I would imagine so.
Q: And where would they have been kept at your house at Rockingham?
A: In a ski closet.
Q: And where is that ski closet?
A: Outside of my main closet.
Q: Is that where the ski gloves also would have been?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you wear hats or caps such as these depicted in exhibits 65 through 70 for skiing?
A: When I skied, yes.
Q: As of June of 1994, were you still skiing?
A: No.
Q: When did you stop skiing?
A: I would--I'm guessing the late '80s.
Q: What use of watch caps -- of your watch caps did you make from the time you stopped skiing through June of 1994?
A: When you say my watch caps, these aren't all my watch caps, I don't think.
Q: These are not yours?
A: That's a girl's watch cap there (Indicating).
Q: How can you tell?
A: The color. I believe it's Nicole's.
Q: You recognize it as Nicole's?
A: I know she had one like that, yes.
Q: For the record, you are referring to exhibits 65,66 and 67. And with reference to 68, 69 and 70, what use did you make of that watch cap from the time you stopped skiing in the late '80s until June of 1994?
A: I don't know if this is my watch cap, but I didn't make use of any watch cap in that period of time.
Q: The watch caps like the one in Exhibit 69 -- 68 through 70 that you did have as of June of ]994, what use were you making?
A: If I had a watch cap at this time, no use.
Q: It was just in your closet or your ski drawer?
MR. BAKER: Ski closet.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Ski closet.
A: Yes, with all the other ski clothes that I was making no use of.
Q: But you can't say positively you did not have the ski cap -- the watch cap identified in exhibits 68 through 70. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: What size hat did you wear in June of 1994?
A: I don't know.
Q: What size watch cap did you wear?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you have a general sense of what size your -- you wore for hats or caps in June of 1994?
A: Large.
Q: You have a large head?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have a nickname as a result of having a large head?
A: I had one.
Q: What was it?
A: Headquarters.
Q: Excuse me?
A: Headquarters.
Q: Headquarters. When did you have that nickname?
A: As a kid.
Q: In terms of numbers, like size 10, size 8, size 9, what size hat do you wear?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you have any estimation of that, Mr. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Can you tell by looking at Exhibit 68 through 70 whether that's the size of hat that you wear?
A: No.
Q: Does size 8-1/2 seem right to you?
A: No, I don't know.
MR. BAKER: Is that a size? That's 8-1/2 inches. Is that how they do it?
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't know.
MR. BAKER: I don't either.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think so, because it seems too small.
MR. BAKER: It seems too logical.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Did you own any dark sweat suits as of June of 1994?
A: No.
Q: None at all?
A: No.
Q: You're positive?
A: Yes.
Q: Why?
A: Because I didn't wear sweat suits.
Q: So you owned none at all?
A: Correct.
Q: What do you consider to be a sweat suit?
A: Sweat suit, sweat pants, classic sweat pants, classic sweat shirt.
Q: What clothing did you wear in June of 1994 for exercising?
A: I wore tight--what they call -- they look like bicycle pants.
Q: Spandex?
A: Spandex, yes. Spandex shorts.
Q: What long pants, if any, did you wear for exercising?
A: I didn't.
Q: At no time?
A: No.
Q: Did you wear any exercise clothes on your exercise video that you made in May of 1994?
A: I believe so.
Q: What did you wear?
A: Whatever they gave me.
Q: What did they give you?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Was it long pants or short pants?
A: I believe they were short pants.
Q: Did you wear any long pants?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Whatever they gave you, did you keep?
A: No.
Q: You gave it back to them?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: To whom did you give it back?
A: Whoever was in charge of wardrobe and stuff there.
Q: As of June of 1994, did you own any athletic wear, dark in color, long pants?
MR. BAKER: I don't know what you mean by "athletic wear." Anything like he said that he used?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Anything you would work out with or participate in athletic events or sports, as opposed to slacks you would wear to go someplace.
MR. BAKER: Excluding golf clothes, I assume.
MR. PETROCELLI: I think we can exclude golf, because you wear kind of normal slacks for golf --
MR. BAKER: No. It's absolutely obligatory that you wear the ugliest pants ever made. He doesn't, but a lot of golfers do.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Did you understand -- Can you differentiate between golf pants and other athletic pants?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Well, put aside golf pants. Did you own any other dark athletic pants?
A: Not that I'm aware of.
Q: No long athletic wear type pants at all?
A: Not that I'm aware.
Q: When you say not that you're aware, you could have owned some pants but not be aware of it?
A: Yes.
Q: And how could that have happened?
A: Just like all the ski clothes, I have no idea what's in that ski closet, but you guys pulled some caps and some gloves from there. I wouldn't have known because I haven't looked in that closet in years.
Q: By the way, we didn't pull this.
A: Well, whoever did.
Q: This was taken from your home by the LAPD.
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: By the way, can we get a stipulation that we can at least get his golf clubs back?
MR. PETROCELLI: I guess we can talk about that. I don't know where they are.
MR. BAKER: I do.
MR. PETROCELLI: They're in evidence, I think. Right? They're not at the LAPD SID. I think they're a trial court exhibit.
MR. BLASIER: I think they are.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Anyway, those are the Callaway golf clubs--
A: Yes.
Q: -- in evidence?
A: I guess so. I'd like to have them, though.
Q: Let me ask you a question about those golf clubs.
MR. BAKER: I'm sorry.
MR. KELLY: Take a couple hours, Bob.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
When you last saw those golf clubs is when you packed them. Right?
A: What do you mean? The clubs?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes.
Q: That was on the evening of June 12, 1994. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: When you put the golf clubs in the golf cover bag, that's the last time you saw those golf clubs. Right?
A: The clubs, yes.
Q: When that bag--That bag was checked in at the airport to go onto the airplane. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: When you arrived in Chicago, you were picked up by a Hertz representative named Merrill. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you knew Merrill from before. Right?
A: No.
Q: How did you know his name was Merrill when I just said it?
A: Because he was in court.
Q: So Merrill picked up your golf clubs and you and the rest of your luggage and put it all in his trunk. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And what happened to -- He took you right to O'Hare Plaza?
A: If that was the hotel, yes.
Q: And then when you got out,what luggage came out with you?
A: My grip, my Louis Vuitton bag and my suit.
Q: And you left the golf clubs. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And in the golf clubs was that blue-grayish bag that you had already consolidated. Right?
A: I assume so, yes
Q: Where did you understand the golf clubs were going?
A: Well, they would have eventually been on my golf cart when we started to play golf.
Q: What time was your tee time?
A: I don't know.
Q: Roughly.
A: Noon.
Q: Where?
A: I don't know.
Q: How were you going to find out where to go to play golf?
A: He was going to pick me up and take me.
Q: What time did you set for him to pick you up?
A: 10:30 or 11:00. I'm not sure.
Q: The next morning?
A: Yes.
Q: You were going to sleep for--
A: Well, that morning.
Q: The morning of June 13.
A: Yeah. I didn't get there till 6 something, to the hotel--
Q: 6 something Chicago time. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were going to sleep for a while?
A: Yes.
Q: And then he was going to pick you up.
A: Yes.
Q: You were going to leave the rest of your luggage at the hotel and come back. Right?
A: No.
Q: You were going to take it all with you?
A: Yes.
Q: And then after golf you were going to an event that evening?
A: Yes.
Q: At the country club where the golf course is?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And then the plan was to, if you didn't find Mike Ditka, to come back to L.A. that evening. Right?
A: Yeah, if I didn't get into another golf game, I would come back to L.A. that evening.
Q: And you had a reservation. Correct?
A: On the plane, yes.
Q: What time that evening?
A: I don't know. I don't recall.
Q: What instructions did you give Merrill to do with respect to your golf clubs?
A: None.
Q: Did you understand that Merrill knew what to do?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you know that?
A: Well, he's gonna pick me up the next day and we're going to the golf course.
Q: I see. So you understood that when Merrill picked you up, the clubs would still be in his trunk.
A: Yes.
Q: Of the same car?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you know that would be the same person picking you up at the hotel?
A: He told me.
Q: He said, "Mr. Simpson. I'm gonna be the same person picking you up?"
A: Yes.
Q: If he told you some other person was going to pick you up, would you have then taken your clubs with you?
A: More than likely, yes. Unless he was going to the golf course, he could have taken them there.
Q: Where did you understand Merrill was headed during the time you were sleeping?
A: Home.
Q: Did you call Merrill the next morning to tell them--to tell Merrill not to pick you up?
A: No.
Q: Did you have someone do so for you?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Merrill came to pick you up?
A: I believe he was on his way.
Q: On his way when?
A: That morning.
Q: When what? When you left the hotel?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you get any instructions to Merrill that you were leaving unexpectedly?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you get those instructions to him?
A: I called him.
Q: Where did you call him from?
A: The hotel.
Q: Before you checked out?
A: Yes.
Q: And so--Where did you reach Merrill?
A: I believe at his home.
Q: How did you get his phone number?
A: He left it with me.
Q: And why did he do that?
A: Because if something came up, I guess.
Q: Like what?
A: I don't know.
Q: You told Merrill that if something came up, you would want to be able to get in touch with him?
A: No.
Q: And then you got his phone number. Right?
A: No.
Q: You didn't get his phone number?
A: He gave me his phone number or it was in my travel file, one or the other.
Q: Before this occasion had you ever seen Merrill before?
A: No.
Q: Had you ever had his number before?
A: No.
Q: So you got Merrill's phone number for the first time in the car. Right?
A: It's standard, whoever I'm dealing with, they leave numbers for me, yes.
Q: Home numbers?
A: Whatever numbers, whoever I'm dealing with, yes.
Q: What kind of car was it?
A: Some type of truck.
Q: You mean like a Bronco truck?
A: Yeah.
Q: Utility vehicle?
A: Yes.
Q: It wasn't a limousine, in other words, or a stretch or a sedan?
A: Yes.
Q: None of those. Right?
A: None of those.
Q: When you got to Chicago, you went down to pick up your luggage. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: At O'Hare.
A: Yes.
Q: And did you make any phone calls before you got to the luggage place?
A: No.
Q: Like any phone calls from the phone booth?
A: No.
Q: When you went there, did you go to where the luggage comes down?
A: Yes.
Q: And you waited for your luggage?
A: Yes.
Q: Anybody wait with you?
A: He did.
Q: Merrill was there?
A: Yes. And a couple of people were hanging around.
Q: Merrill meet you at the gate?
A: Yes.
Q: Give autographs?
A: Yes.
Q: How many?
A: I don't know.
Q: Before you got in the car, from the time you got off the plane, how many did you give?
A: I don't know.
Q: And can you identify anybody you spoke to?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: Howard Bingham.
Q: After you got off the plane?
A: I believe we spoke in the area, yes.
Q: Baggage area?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Did you walk down to the area with him?
A: The whole plane was walking down to the area, so I don't recall.
Q: Who is Howard Bingham?
A: A photographer.
Q: A friend of yours?
A: We're friendly, yes.
Q: How long have you known Mr. Bingham?
A: Years. I don't know. Forever, it seems.
Q: Did he take pictures of you?
A: I'm not sure.
Q: Who is he a photographer for?
A: Muhammad Ali.
Q: Anyone else?
A: That I know of, no.
Q: And you chatted with him?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: When the baggage -- Anybody else, by the way, that you can identify that you spoke to?
A: No.
Q: When the baggage came, did you pick it up off the carrousel?
A: I might have or he might have.
Q: "He" being?
A: Merrill. And I can't recall if a baggage guy was there or not. I don't recall.
Q: When the baggage got off, did you pick any of it up yourself?
A: I don't recall. I'm sure I carried something, but I don't know which-- what.
Q: Where was the car?
A: Right out front.
Q: Was anyone in it?
A: No.
Q: Just there parked?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you carry to the car?
A: I don't recall. My grip for sure, and I don't know if I grabbed the Louis Vuitton bag or I just kept the suit and he grabbed it. I don't recall.
Q: The two of you carried all the luggage?
A: Yes.
Q: No cart?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you do any luggage shifting or changing or consolidation?
A: No.
Q: When you got to the limousine, what went where?
MR. BAKER: Limousine --
MR. PETROCELLI: I'm sorry.
Q: When you got to the vehicle, what went where?
A: I think everything went in the back.
Q: Except your grip?
A: I think everything went in the back.
Q: You sat in the front seat?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have your cell phone with you?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Did you make any phone calls?
A: No.
Q: Was there a phone in the car?
A: I don't recall.
Q: How long was the drive to the hotel?
A: Not long.
Q: When did you ask for the phone number? A What do you mean?
MR. BAKER: He never asked for--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Merrill's.
A: I never asked for the phone number.
Q: When did you receive the phone number?
A: If it wasn't already in my folder, he gave it to me.
Q: How would it already have been in your folder?
A: Cathy's very efficient, and normally all that information is in my folder and whatever letters he had previously written to Cathy. I think a copy of one of those letters was in the folder, too, my travel folder.
Q: Where is that folder?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did the police take it?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Did you see it in court?
A: No.
Q: What did you do with it in Chicago?
A: What do you mean?
Q: Let me ask this: Did you come back with that folder?
A: I'm sure it was there, yeah.
Q: Where do you keep that folder when you're traveling? Or where did you keep it?
A: In my grip.
Q: In your grip?
A: Yes.
Q: What is it, like a book?
A: No. Every trip I take, as you saw with the calendar, she will fax a calendar and whatever correspondence has to do with that event, put it in a manila envelope, staple my tickets there so I'll know what the heck I'm doing.
Q: Did you have a phone book with you to give you names of people that you carried with you in your grip? A telephone book.
A: My normal telephone book, yes.
Q: You carried that with you?
A: I always do, yes.
Q: Had names of people that you would call from out of town?
A: You mean names of my friends?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: And others. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you got in the car, what did you tell Merrill about -- Is that it, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's the travel folder?
MR. LEONARD: No. That is my travel folder, where I'm supposed to be today. Thank you very much.
MR. PETROCELLI: I was hoping you could help us out there.
Q: What did you and Merrill talk about on the way to the hotel?
A: I don't recall.
Q: But you made sure you had his home phone number. Right?
A: No.
Q: But you had it. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Merrill told you he would pick you up the next day around--later that day, around 10:30 or so. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he tell you where he was going to take you?
A: I assume to the golf course.
Q: Did he tell you what would happen to the car, where the car would be during the intervening four hours?
A: No.
Q: Did you discuss with Merrill where he was going--
A: No.
Q: -- after he dropped you off?
A: No.
Q: Did you know that he was going home?
A: I assumed he was, yes.
Q: Did you discuss that he was?
A: He may have said he was gonna get some sleep.
Q: What did Merrill do for a living?
A: I gather he worked for Hertz.
Q: Did you ask for his work number?
A: No.
Q: Did you have it?
A: I'm sure it would have been in my folder, yes.
Q: Did you know where Merrill was going to be during the intervening four hours?
A: No.
Q: When he picked you up, did he -- He did not pick you up because he-- you called him. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you reached him at his home?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: What did you tell him?
A: I told him I needed to get back to the airport and could he come get me.
Q: What did he say?
A: He was on his way.
Q: And how long did it take for him to get there?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did he get there?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I saw some other Hertz people there when I was in the lobby, and they took me to the airport.
Q: Did you make arrangements to tell Merrill or to get word to Merrill that you would be gone? As I understand what you're saying, you asked Merrill to come get you right away. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And before Merrill got there, you took another ride. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So to your knowledge Merrill was going to arrive, and you would not be there. Right?
A: I wasn't giving it that much thought at the time, but I assume so, yeah.
Q: But your golf clubs would be with him. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you make arrangements with anybody before you hopped in that ride to get your golf clubs back?
A: No. Just told him I'm -- you know, "I need to get to the airport."
Q: Who drove you?
A: A Hertz person.
Q: Just happened to see such a person out in the hotel area?
A: They were arriving, I guess some clients with some Hertz people.
Q: When you went down from your room to the lobby, you were going there to wait for Merrill?
A: That or get a cab.
Q: Whichever came first?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you able--Did you ask for a cab?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there a line?
A: They called for one. There was no cabs there.
Q: Did you go to the front desk to check out?
A: Yes.
Q: And pay your bill?
A: I don't think I paid the bill, no.
Q: It was paid by Hertz?
A: Yes.
Q: So what did you do at the front desk?
A: I asked them, could they call me a cab, and I asked for a bandage.
Q: And who did you ask?
A: Some lady that was there. Some lady that was there.
Q: Was there anything on your finger at the time?
A: Yes.
Q: What?
A: Toilet paper.
Q: Anything else?
A: Blood.
Q: What did you do with the toilet paper?
A: I guess threw it away.
Q: What kind of Band-Aid did the person give you?
A: A Band-Aid.
Q: You put it on right there?
A: Yes.
Q: Right at the front desk?
A: I don't recall. It was either at the front desk or away, because a lot of people were trying to check out. I may have walked over a little bit or I may have done it at the front desk. I don't remember.
Q: Where did you throw the toilet paper?
A: I don't know. Not on the ground -- not on the floor, I'm sure. Maybe there was a thing for, you know, cigarette smokers. Ashtray thing may have been there.
Q: Who did you talk to at the front desk?
A: Whoever was behind the desk.
Q: Do you remember?
A: No.
Q: Man or woman?
A: I believe it was a woman.
Q: Caucasian?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did she testify in court?
A: I think she was -- I think she was in town to testify, but I don't know if she ever got on the stand.
Q: Did you tell her you were hurry?
A: Yeah.
Q: Asked her for a cab?
A: Yeah.
Q: And she said none were available?
A: No. She said she'll call for one.
Q: And then you went outside?
A: Yes.
Q: And saw a Hertz person?
A: Yeah.
Q: And what did you tell that person?
A: I needed to get to the airport.
Q: What arrangements did you make to get your clubs back?
A: At that time, none.
Q: Did you have any further calls to Merrill the rest of that day?
A: No.
Q: What did you do to get your clubs back?
A: What do you mean?
Q: Did you ever get your clubs back?
A: Yes.
Q: When?
A: Tuesday, I believe.
Q: How did they come back to you?
A: Evidently when he got to the hotel, we were already gone, and he came to the airport and got them checked on the flight.
Q: The flight that you were on?
A: I assume so, yes.
Q: What's the basis for what you just said?
A: He told me this the next day.
Q: You talked to Merrill the next day, being Tuesday?
A: Yes.
Q: How did that come about?
A: I was in my office speaking with someone else, and Cathy had called him or he called Cathy -- I don't know which one -- and Cathy told me he was on the phone. And I apologized to him for how rude I was. I felt I was pretty rude to him when I called him that morning.
Q: What did you say to Merrill when you called that morning that was rude?
A: I think -- that morning I don't think I was rude at all The next day I was rude. That morning I just said, "I need to get out of here, and I need to get out of here now," and I think I was very abrupt and I was rude. I was -- I was not nice.
Q: You're talking about when you called him from the hotel to come get you right away?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you tell him that your wife had been killed?
A: No.
Q: Your ex-wife. I should say.
A: No.
Q: Gave him no explanation?
A: No. The police said that they weren't talking and for me not to say anything.
Q: Who told you that?
A: Either Phillips or Lange or whichever one I spoke to that morning.
Q: You don't know who it was?
A: I spoke to a few guys that morning.
Q: On the same call?
A: No.
Q: More than one person called you?
A: No. I called home a few times.
Q: And spoke to the police officers there?
A: Yeah.
Q: When you got on that airplane, you had no idea one way or the other whether your clubs were there?
A: Didn't give it a thought.
Q: Did you make any arrangements at all during the trip to the airport to get your clubs?
A: No.
Q: Tried calling anybody from your phone or anywhere else?
A: For what?
Q: To get your clubs.
A: No.
Q: You had all your other luggage with you. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you check it at the stand, or did you take it on the plane?
A: Took it on the plane.
Q: Everything else?
A: Yes.
Q: Meaning the grip and the Louis Vuitton?
A: Yes.
Q: And the suit bag was in the Louis Vuitton?
A: Yes.
Q: Anything else? Was that it?
A: That's it.
Q: When you got off the plane, did you -- what did you do?
A: Came to the curb.
Q: And was anyone there to pick you up?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: Leroy Taft and Cathy Randa.
Q: Where did they take you?
A: To Rockingham.
Q: When they picked you up, did you have any discussion about your golf clubs--
A: No.
Q:--and where they were?
A: No.
Q: Did you later find out that they were on the same flight with you? A Well, I assumed they were.
Q: How?
A: He said he got there before my plane left, and evidently the skycap had done it. I don't know. Maybe it came on a later flight. I'm not sure.
Q: Well, when did you talk to Merrill next?
A: Next day.
Q: "Next day" being what, the 14th?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were at your office?
A: Yes.
Q: What time was it?
A: I don't know.
Q: In the morning?
A: Possibly. Midday, morning.
Q: And the purpose of your talking to Merrill was to apologize for being rude the day before?
A: No. He was on the phone and I was in my office. I had just finished speaking to, for the first time, to Bob Shapiro, and I was in the office, and Cathy said he was on the phone.
Q: And do you know why Merrill happened to be on your office phone?
A: I don't know. Maybe Cathy called him or he called Cathy. I actually-- I left no explanation with these people, and maybe she was explaining to them and, you know... I don't know.
Q: Now, by this time on the 14th, you did not know where your clubs were. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And had you thought about getting them back?
A: No.
Q: You have no idea what time it was when this call with Merrill occurred?
A: About midday. Morning or midday, one or the other.
Q: Merrill then informed you that the clubs got on the plane?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And then you hung up with Merrill. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you then do to get your clubs back?
A: To get my clubs back?
Q: Yeah. Did you ask someone to go get them for you?
A: No.
Q: What did you do?
A: I don't get it. What did I do it at that point in time?
Q: Did the clubs ever get back in your possession?
A: Yes.
Q: How?
A: I picked them up.
Q: When did you pick up your golf clubs?
A: A little later.
Q: Who went with you?
A: Bob Kardashian.
Q: Where did you leave from?
A: My office.
Q: Was Bob with you at the office, Bob Kardashian, that is?
A: Yes.
Q: Was he with you when you were talking to Merrill?
A: I don't know.
Q: When you left your office -- Back up. Did Merrill tell you where you could retrieve or where the clubs could be retrieved?
A: No.
Q: Did you make any phone calls to determine where the clubs were?
A: No.
Q: Did you have anybody else do so?
A: No.
Q: You just got in the car with Kardashian and went to LAX?
A: I mean, we went to Nicole's house, but we -- too much press was there, and we started driving. We were waiting for my kids.
Q: Let me go back. After you left your office, you went in whose car?
A: Bob's.
Q: What kind of car did he have?
A: I don't recall.
Q: No idea?
A: No.
Q: And you went directly from your office in Brentwood to Nicole's home on Bundy?
A: Yes.
Q: What was your purpose in doing that?
A: I just wanted to go to her house.
Q: Wanted to see what was going on there?
A: No. Just wanted to go to her house.
Q: What did you want to do in Nicole's house?
A: I don't know.
Q: How were you planning to enter the house?
A: If somebody was there, I would have rung the doorbell in front.
Q: And if no one was there?
A: I would have left.
Q: Did you call first?
A: No
Q: Did you get to the house?
A: Got to the front of it, yes.
Q: On Bundy?
A: Actually we were on Dorothy.
Q: Dorothy is around the corner?
A: Yeah. It's at the corner of Bundy and Dorothy.
Q: And what did you do there?
A: There was a lot of media there, and Bob turned left and started down Bundy.
Q: Past the condo?
A: Yes.
Q: And then what?
A: He was just driving. We were talking.
Q: Decided not to stop?
A: Yes.
Q: And then what did you decide to do then?
A: I think we may have called to see how long it would take for the kids to get here, and we were -- Bob asked if I wanted to go straight to his house. I told him "No. Just drive." And--
Q: Just drive?
A: Yeah.
Q: Nowhere in particular?
A: Yes. And then we were down Bundy at some area, and I said, "I think I have some bags at the airport" or "bag at the airport," and we went to the airport.
Q: What bags did you think you had at the airport?
A: Golf clubs.
Q: How did you know it would still be there?
A: I assumed it would be.
Q: How did you know that Cathy Randa hadn't made arrangements to get it back?
A: I just assumed it would be there.
Q: Did you call Cathy first and say, "By the way, did you make arrangements to pick up my clubs so I don't have to go down there and get them?"
A: No.
Q: Did you ask someone else to get them?
A: No.
Q: Where were your children?
A: En route from Lagoon to Bob's house.
Q: Had they already left when you decided to go to the airport?
A: I think they were about to leave.
Q: You called down there?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: From Bob's car phone?
A: Or we called Bob's house and Bob said A.C had just called, one or the other.
Q: Your children were with A.C. Cowlings?
A: Yes.
Q: And who else?
A: I assume the Brown family.
Q: What about Arnelle?
A: I don't think so, but could have been, but I don't think so.
Q: Who took your children to the Brown residence?
A: A.C.
Q: Did he go alone with the children?
A: I was in Chicago, so I don't know.
Q: Did you find out later that he took them down there alone?
A: I'm not sure.
Q: He took them down there the evening of -- I guess it would be the wee hours of the morning of the 13th?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you know when the children got to the Brown residence?
A: No.
Q: And do you know whether anyone besides Cowlings was there with your children from Brentwood? In other words, did any of your other family members go down to be with the children?
A: I don't know.
MR. BAKER: When you say "down," do you mean down to Lagoon?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Did you talk to Cowlings about getting the kids back to you?
A: Pardon me?
Q: Did you talk to Cowlings about getting the children back to you?
A: I must have, yes.
Q: This is now Tuesday morning. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you seen Al Cowlings yet?
MR. BAKER: When you say, "This is now Tuesday morning," what are you
MR. PETROCELLI: I want to make sure if the timing is right here.
MR. BAKER: "But this is now Tuesday morning" relative to what?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
When you're driving around with Kardashian.
A: Did I what?
Q: When you're driving around with Kardashian.
A: What about it?
Q: What day is this?
A: Tuesday.
Q: Tuesday, the 14th. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You got back into town on the 13th. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you seen Cowlings yet?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Had you spoken to him?
A: I feel I must have.
Q: Did you call him from the hotel room?
A: No.
Q: From the airplane?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Was he at your house on Monday night?
A: I can't recall.
Q: So Cowlings was going to take the children to Bob's house?
A: Yes.
Q: And they were going to be there in about an hour?
A: Yes.
Q: Why did you want to just drive around?
A: Because I just--that's what I do.
Q: You drive around a lot?
A: Yes.
Q: No place in particular?
A: Yes.
Q: How long have you been doing that?
A: My whole adult life.
Q: Where do you like to drive around?
A: It depends.
Q: What are your--what are some of your more favorite places you like to go?
A: I don't think there is any favorite place. I just like to get on the freeway and move normally or drive around. That's what I've always done when I've been troubled.
Q: So when you decided to go to LAX, you didn't know whether you were going to find your golf clubs there. Right?
A: True.
Q: And made no effort to find out. Right?
A: True.
Q: And when you got to the airport, what did you do?
A: I think we went to where luggage -- lost luggage, and then we went-- I believe they said--I don't know. We went to lost luggage, and then we went to wherever the luggage was.
Q: Did you park the car?
A: No. Just at the curb.
Q: Did both of you go in?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you make arrangements to not get ticketed?
A: I don't know how you can do that.
Q: So you just left the car there. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: American Airlines?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Baggage pickup. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Went inside and went where?
A: I think to lost and found.
Q: What did you tell them?
A: That I was looking for a bag and I didn't have the ticket.
Q: Who did you talk to?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Man or a woman?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Caucasian? African-American?
A: I don't remember.
Q: What did that person say?
A: I don't know exactly. Obviously that the bag was -- to go to the other end or something. I don't -- I don't remember specifically what they said.
Q: Now, did you describe the bag you were looking for?
A: I must have.
Q: What did you say?
A: "I'm looking for a golf bag."
Q: So that person sent you someplace else?
A: Yes.
Q: Where?
A: To the other end of the baggage claim.
Q: And what did you do there?
A: Some--I saw the bag, and a guy opened the cage and gave me the bag.
Q: You just saw it through the cage?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you prove to him that it was your bag?
A: He didn't ask for any proof.
Q: Did he recognize you?
A: I would assume so.
Q: What did you say to him?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you know who that person is?
A: No.
Q: Can you identify that person?
A: No.
Q: Man or woman?
A: I think that was a man.
Q: The bag was in the blue cover bag. Right?
A: I don't know if it was a blue cover bag--
Q: It was a cover bag. Right? A Yes
Q: What did you do with the bag when you got it?
A: Either Bob carried or I carried it and put it in the trunk of his car.
Q: Did you look inside?
A: No.
Q: Did you open it?
A: No.
Q: Not once?
A: No.
Q: Did you open it to see if everything was in there?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I wasn't -- I'm a trusting person, I guess.
Q: You didn't care to see if--These were your favorite golf clubs. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: In fact, you want them back right now, don't you?
A: Yes
MR. BAKER: You don't have to answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Your lawyers asked for the clubs back.
MR. BAKER: I want them back.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
These are your favorite golf clubs. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you didn't look inside?
A: I've never gotten to an airport and looked to see if all my clubs were still in the bag ever in my life when I checked the golf clubs -- golf bag.
Q: Is this the first time in your life you've gone to an airport the day after you came into town with your luggage to get your golf clubs?
A: Pardon me?
Q: Is this the first time you made a special trip to the airport to get your golf clubs?
A: No.
Q: When did that happen before?
A: Many times before.
Q: Many times when you would come back into town with your luggage and your golf clubs not be with you?
A: Correct.
Q: And you would go back and get them yourself?
A: Correct.
Q: Why does that happen so often?
A: Because I play so early In the morning, and most of the times, not only in L.A. but even when I've been out of L.A., and I want my clubs because I'm gonna play the next morning, and they evidently came in on the next flight, and I don't want to wait because I want to play first thing the next morning. So I get up early or later on that night, would go get them because normally when they deliver, it's sometime the next day.
Q: And you don't send a messenger?
A: That has happened before, too, yes. I haven't sent a messenger, but they have delivered also.
Q: Or you might have someone go pick them up for you. Right?
A: No, I've never done that.
Q: Never asked Cathy?
A: Never.
Q: Cathy's son works for you, too, doesn't he?
A: Now, yes.
Q: What's his name?
A: Gary.
Q: Gary Randa?
A: Yes.
Q: He was a member of your defense team? Worked as an investigator or runner?
A: Yes.
Q: Is he still?
A: No.
Q: Does he work for you?
A: He has worked for me, yes.
Q: Currently?
A: I don't believe so. I'm not paying him. anyway.
Q: So you went down and you got the clubs; didn't look inside.
A: Correct.
Q: And then drove where? .
A: Maybe driven around a little more, but essentially we went to his house.
Q: Where did you drive around?
A: Between his house and the air- port.
Q: Did anybody see you, by the way, when you were at Bundy?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you slow down and--
A: Yes.
Q: --take a look?
A: Yes. We were at the corner. We were actually on Dorothy at the corner.
Q: Could you tell if anybody was home at Nicole's condo?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk to anybody there?
A: No.
Q: Were pictures taken of you there?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Have you ever seen any video or photographs of you there with Kardashian?
A: No.
Q: When you got to the airport, got your clubs, got in the car, did you-- how long did it take you before you got back to Kardashian's house?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you drive around a little more before you came back home to Bob's house?
A: We did not rush straight to his house because I don't think we got on the freeway, but we went to his house.
Q: He took a route home other than through the freeway?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: He lives in Encino. Right? Or at that time did?
A: Yes.
Q: Where in Encino?
A: Encino Hills.
Q: Do you know what route he took back?
A: Maybe Sepulveda. I'm not sure . I'm not sure. I was not looking at it.
Q: Did you take the freeway down--
A: No.
Q:--to the airport?
A: No.
Q: Surface streets?
A: Yes. Well, mostly Barrington.
Q: Straight down?
A: Yes. Most of the way, yes.
Q: When you got to Bob Kardashian's house, what happened to your golf clubs?
A: I assume they stayed in the golf club at that time.
Q: Did the bag stay in Bob's trunk?
A: At that time, yes.
Q: When did you take them out?
A: He may have taken them out. I did take a club out at one point in time.
Q: When?
A: Sometime in the next two or three days.
Q: At Bob's house?
A: Yeah.
Q: To just swing?
A: Yeah.
Q: What club was it?
A: I don't know.
Q: When is the next time you saw your golf bag or your golf clubs after you put them in the trunk?
A: In two or three days, sometime in those two or three days at Bob's house.
Q: Do you know if Bob took them out and brought them in the house?
A: No, because they were in his garage.
Q: How do you know that?
A: Because that's where I got the club out of the bag.
Q: So to your knowledge someone took them out of Bob's trunk and put them in his garage. Right?
A: Well, his car was in his garage also.
Q: But the bag was out of the trunk, in the garage?
A: Yes, standing in his garage.
Q: You never went to the golf bag to look into it for any reason?
A: To get a club out, yes.
Q: When you went to get the club out, was the cover bag over the golf clubs?
A: Yes.
Q: So you had to unzip the cover bag?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you take the whole golf bag out of the cover bag?
A: No. The cover bag just fell.
Q: Just flipped over. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you pulled out your club?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you look around at all for anything?
A: No.
Q: Did you look at that other blue bag that was in there?
A: No.
Q: You swung your club in the garage there?
A: No. I just kinda--it was like a security thing that I had with me.
Q: And then did you put it back in the golf bag?
A: I'm not sure.
Q: And how did the--Did you take the golf bag with you when you left Kardashian's house?
A: No.
Q: Do you know what happened to it after you last saw it in the garage?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Bob Kardashian or anyone else looked in your golf bag?
A: No.
Q: Or your cover bag.
A: No.
Q: Did you have them check it for anything?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if they did?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if there was any blood anywhere on your golf bag?
A: No.
Q: On your golf clubs?
A: No.
Q: On the cover bag?
A: No.
Q: Did you check?
A: Me?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Were there any knives in there?
A: No.
Q: How do you know?
A: Because I didn't put any knives in, unless there were a penknife for my key chain.
Q: Did you check?
A: I didn't have to check. I know I never put any knives in there other than maybe a penknife on my key chain.
Q: Did you ask anyone to check?
A: No.
Q: When you got to LAX on the morning of the 13th, you said Taft and Randa picked you up. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: What car was used to pick you up?
A: I believe it was Skip's car.
Q: What kind of car is that?
A: I don't know.
Q: When you got to Skip's car, you put the baggage where?
A: I don't know if he put the Louis Vuitton in the trunk or not or in the back seat with Cathy. I just don't remember.
Q: It was just the three of you?
A: Yes.
Q: And why did they pick you up?
A: Because--I don't know. Because Skip was my friend and Cathy was my friend, and evidently Arnelle was distraught the last time I spoke to her, and they were the closest people to me in LA. at that time. A.C., from what I understand, was taking my kids to Lagoon.
Q: When they got to the airport and picked you up, did you look in your bags at all?
A: No.
Q:-- before they went into the trunk?
A: No.
Q: Did they?
A: No.
Q: Where did you go from the airport?
A: To Rockingham.
Q: Straight to Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you have conversation in the car about Nicole's death?
A: I'm sure we did.
Q: Did you ask, you know, how it happened?
A: I may have.
Q: What did they say?
A: No one knew.
Q: Did they know anything?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Did they tell you anything at all about Nicole's death?
A: I really don't recall.
Q: Did they ask you whether you did it?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: There was no discussion about that?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did Cathy Randa ever ask you that question?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You don't recall.
A. No.
Q: Did Cathy Randa ever ask you if you were responsible for Nicole's death?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Wouldn't that be something you would recall, Mr. Simpson?
MR. BAKER: That's argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Can you search your memory and tell me if she ever asked you that question?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Is that the best you can do?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever discuss with Cathy whether you were responsible for Nicole's death?
A: I'm sure after I was arrested I was telling everybody, "Why are they doing this to me," yes.
Q: Before you were arrested?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What about Skip Taft?
A: What do you mean?
MR. BAKER: Well, that's
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Did you ever tell him--Let me ask you this: Did he ever ask you if you were responsible for Nicole's death?
MR. BAKER: You don't have to answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Not every conversation he has with Skip Taft is privileged.
MR. BAKER: You are going to have to prove it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Okay. Let me ask you a question: Did you have conversations with Skip Taft as a friend, a loyal friend of yours for many, many years, when he picked you up at the airport, or were you involved in attorney-client communications on that ride home?
MR. BAKER: Oh, so sinister, "attorney-client relations on ride home." Don't answer that question.
MR. PETROCELLI: I have to have a foundation here, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: You are not going to get any answers out of him about what he talked to Skip Taft about.
MR. PETROCELLI: Is there something about Skip Taft that he is immune from the subject of testimony?
MR. BAKER: Well, I thought so in the criminal trial because he was an attorney, and he has a law--
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me lay a little foundation on this. Okay, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: Lay it quickly because I'm getting hungry.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
Q: When you got in that car and drove home with Randa and Taft, were you involved in attorney-client communications-
MR. BAKER: Well. that calls--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
--with Skip Taft?
MR. BAKER: That calls for a conclusion on the part of this witness.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's the only way I can do it, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: No, I don't think you can do it at all, so-
MR. PETROCELLI: How am I supposed to find out if it's privileged or if it's not privileged? They could have been talking about anything, even golf clubs.
MR. BAKER: You can certainly ask him if he was talking about the Super bowl or the NBA finals.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, you know whether or not you were talking with Taft about legal matters, about lawyer-client matters, whether you were consulting him for advice or not, legal advice. You know. Is that true?
MR. BAKER: Well, don't answer that. I mean, that's--any time he talks to Mr. Taft about anything that has any legal Implications, it's attorney-client privilege.
MR. PETROCELLI: He didn't say it had any legal implications. These were his trusted friends picking him up in time of great need and support.
MR. BAKER: I understand that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Is that right, Mr. Simpson? Can you answer that? Is that right?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: So tell us what you discussed.
A: I don't know if we discussed anything. I think what they were trying to do is be there to comfort me.
A: And did they ask you if you killed Nicole?
A: I don't think they asked me any questions about killing Nicole, no.
Q: Did they question you at all about
A: No.
Q: Did you tell them one way or the other that you did or didn't?
A: I don't even think that was a subject matter, if I killed anyone at that time, so I don't believe that was a subject matter in anybody's mind a the time.
Q: So the subject of your responsibility or not for Nicole's death never came up with Taft and Randa. Is that right?
A: They were there to comfort me in that ride, yes. That's what they were there for.
Q: And you had spoken to them quite a bit before you got in that car. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: On the plane.
A: Yes.
Q: Lots of phone calls. Right?
A: I don't know what a lot of phone calls is-
Q: Numerous.
A:--or how many I got through on.
Q: Numerous phone calls. Right?
A: I know I tried to get through to them and to people during that period of time, yes.
Q: And also from the hotel. Right?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And during all those phone calls with Taft and Randa from the moment you found out about-- the officers called you and told you about Nicole's death, did they ask you whether you had done it?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you tell them?
A: I never thought that that was a subject that anybody would ever discuss among us, no. It never entered my mind that--that never entered my mind.
Q: That subject ever come up during any of those conversations?
A: At that time, no.
Q: It came up later. Right?
A: Obviously.
Q: With Randa and Taft. Right?
A: After I was arrested, yes.
Q: But not before.
A: I can't recall.
Q: Not once. Is that what you're saying?
A: I'm saying I can't recall.
Q: Now, when you got to--Where did you go, right from the airport to Rockingham on the 13th?
A: Yes.
Q: Make any phone calls?
MR. BAKER: This is about the fourth time.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am just trying to get back to--Well, I better not continue because we are running out of tape and you're getting hungry, so we will take our break here.
MR. KELLY: Which is more important?
MR. BAKER: The tape.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 1 of Volume V. The time is approximately 12:17, and we are off the record.
(At the hour of 12:17 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:17 p.m.)
(At the hour of 1:29 p.m., the deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present.)
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 71 was marked for identification by the reporter d is attached hereto.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 1:29. This is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume V.
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
You see this photograph that we have marked as Exhibit 71?
A: Yes.
Q: You recognize that as the bath room at the O'Hare Plaza where you stayed on June 13 when you went there from L A. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Now, I just want you to tell us where on the vanity of this sink the glass was situated when you apparently hit it with the back of your hand.
A: You mean the broken glass?
Q: The glass that you said you broke.
A: When it was broken.
Q: No. Before it was broken, where was it situated?
A: Okay. I thought--I didn't know I testified that I hit it with the back of my hand before it was broke.
Q: How did you break it?
A: I don't know.
Q: What I am trying to get to is where the glass was right before you came into contact with it that caused the glass to break.
A: I don't know. But I can tell you, when it was broken, it was right here beneath the towel, right in this area it was broken (Indicating).
Q: Take the reporter's exhibit, Mr.-
MR. BAKER: Here you go.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
No, no. Take this one, Mr. Simpson, and why don't you mark where, I guess, the broken glass was.
MR. BAKER: Just a red circle in the area.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, in that red circle was the broken glass?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you tell us where the glass was when you came into contact and broke it?
A: It must have been in this area because when it broke, this is where the glass kinda went (Indicating).
Q: The circled area?
A: Yeah, basically, yeah.
Q: And just a few minutes ago you said you didn't backhand it.
A: I don't know how it broke . I really don't. I have no memory of how it broke. I just know I was in a frenzy, and it broke.
Q: You do know that you broke it, though. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you on the phone when you broke it?
A: Somebody may have been holding on the phone. I was going back and forth to the phone. It was during a period of time when I was trying to get a flight, and in that period of time I was not put on hold, but people were looking for flight information and stuff, and I was just going back and forth from my-from the phone to my--so I don't know when in that whole mix it happened, but it happened during that period of time.
Q: Nor do you remember how it happened. Right?
A: No.
Q: You do know, for example, that you didn't like throw it at the mirror. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Or throw it anywhere.
A: Right.
MR. BREWER: Mr. Baker, would you just describe for the record where Mr. Simpson drew a circle?
MR. BAKER: It looks, Mike, to the right of the sink bowl, and it looks to the left of what appears to be kind of a wicker basket where there is, I assume, the complimentary toiletries that are obligatory now in every hotel.
(Discussion held off the record.)
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. Can you give me some copies of it? Let's mark this as Exhibit 72.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 72 was marked
for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Can you see without the glasses?
A: Yeah.
Q: I have marked as Exhibit 72 a copy of a phone bill for the day of June 13, 1994 at the O'Hare Plaza--Howard Johnson O'Hare Plaza Hotel. That's where you stayed. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: By looking at these phone records, can you tell me who you called that morning in the hotel room?
A: The first number at the top is Cathy Randa's.
Q: Cathy was the first person you called. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you call Cathy before or after you heard from the officer?
A: After.
Q: The very first phone call that you had that morning was with the officer?
A: Yes.
Q: And you're sure of that now?
A: Yes. I've always been sure of that.
Q: Has that ever been questioned before?
A: No.
Q: Why are you sure of it?
A: Because that was the call that woke me up.
Q: You were sound asleep?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you set your alarm for?
A: I didn't.
Q: Did you have a wake-up call?
A: I don't recall.
Q: How were you planning to get up after a red-eye for 10 30 golf?
A: I never have any problem waking up.
Q: You don't recall if you set the alarm or anything like that?
A: No. Actually, I was wrong. I did have a call before this call, before the police officer.
Q: Who?
A: The operator at the hotel.
Q: What did she call about?
A: See if my room was all right.
Q: When you first got up there?
A: Yes.
Q: Before you went to sleep?
A: Yes.
Q: When you got to the room, you unpacked, you went into bed. Did you fall asleep pretty soon?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have any Band-Aid or anything on your finger?
A: No.
Q: Did you bleed at all in the bed?
A: No.
Q: Drop any blood droplets on the sheets?
A: No.
Q: You're aware there are blood droplets found on those sheets. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you're aware they're in the middle of the sheets on the bottom sheet and the top sheet. Right?
A: No.
Q: You're not aware of that?
A: No.
Q: You're not aware of the fact that they were found generally in the middle where your hand might lie at night?
A: No.
Q: Where are they?
A: Where are my hands?
Q: No. Where was the blood found on the sheets?
A: I don't know. Someone just said there was some blood in the bed.
Q: No one ever told you the location of that blood?
A: No.
Q: Do you know how the blood got there?
A: I assume in the morning when I was going back and forth and when I sat on the bed, you know.
Q: Do you know for a fact that's how it got there?
A: I would assume so, yes.
Q: When you say "assume so,'' I don't know how you use the word "assume." What I want to know is if you remember actually dropping the blood on the sheets in the bed in Chicago.
A: No.
Q: And when you left that hotel that morning, did you know there was blood on the sheets in that bed?
A: No.
Q: The first time you learned about that was in the court case?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Tell me about the first call you got from--after you woke up.
A: The police called.
Q: The first call that occurred that morning was one that you received?
A: Yes.
Q: And who was it?
A: I guess it was the operator from the hotel or the girl at the desk.
Q: That was right when you got in the room. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: But after you went to sleep, you got another call. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And who was that?
A: A police officer.
Q: And tell me about their call.
MR. BAKER: What do you mean, "tell me about it"?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Tell me what you can recall from that call.
A: They asked who I was. He -- I don't know if he prefaced it. He said my kids were all right.
"First let me tell you your kids are all right." And I think he said he had bad news for me, or words to that effect, and he said "Your wife was murdered" -- may have said "killed" -- "last night" or "Your wife was killed." He may not have said "last night." But 'Your wife was murdered" or "Your wife was killed"- "had been killed."
And I got up, sat up, and I tried to make sense of it, and I asked him what--you know, essentially what did he mean. I didn't get it. It was just hard to digest.
And he started telling me that there was nothing he could tell me. "We're trying to find out," and he gave me a whole line of they didn't know any thing. "We're trying to find out, OJ." And he kept assuring me that my kids were okay, my kids were fine. I believe he said they were at the police station. And I might have asked him why.
Q: Why they were at the police station?
A: Yeah.
Q: And what did he say?
A: I don't remember at that--what his answer to that was.
And then he asked me about, could I come back to L.A., I believe, and essentially it was that.
Q: What was the name of the person who called you?
A: I don't--in court they said it was Phillips, but at the time I wouldn't have known which one it was.
Can you remember anything else said by either you or him in that conversation?
A: I don't know if he asked me then or was it the next call, that did I-- what time I left LA. maybe or was I coming back or when I was coming back. I don't remember then. I was kinda--I was not quite with it then.
Q: Can you remember anything else that either you said or he said?
A: Not right now, no.
Q: Do you know of any document or anything else that would refresh your recollection about that conversation?
A: No.
Q: How did you leave it with the officer? That you were coming back, or what?
A: He said something to me about the press didn't know. I think he said --and I think I asked if the Browns knew and he said that they hadn't been told, or a conversation sorta like that, but they hadn't told anybody yet, and I--you know, he may have given me a phone number. I think he gave me a phone number or two. And that's all I can recall.
Q: Is that it?
A: Yeah, that's what I can recall right now.
Q: What did you do after that call?
A: I started getting dressed. I may have called Cathy immediately to get me a flight out, first flight she can get out of Chicago, and I just-- I started getting dressed, and I started calling airlines myself, too.
Q: You asked Cathy to find you a flight back?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you tell her what you had just been told?
A: No. Not at that time. I may have told her--the next call, I may have told her.
Q: Did she know anything about it when you had called her the first time?
A: She didn't know there was a murder, no. I don't believe so.
Q: Did she know anything had happened to-
A: I think she thought something had happened. I think-- I don't recall, but I'm pretty sure she knew something had happened, but I don't recall.
Q: You're saying that when you called Cathy Randa, you didn't tell her what the officer had just told you?
A: No, I didn't. He told me not to say anything. He said, "The press doesn't know. We haven't told anybody," they hadn't told the Browns, and I didn't want to tell her immediately, no.
Q: What did Randa say to you to lead you to believe that she knew?
A: She asked what was going on, and I think they had just called her, someone had just called her, so she was -- you know, at that time of the morning, I guess she was concerned, for me to call her that early.
Q: Who had just called her?
A: I don't know at the time. Now I know it was the police, Arnelle and the police.
Q: You know now that the police had gotten in touch with Randa before you and Randa spoke. Right?
A: Now I do, yes.
Q: And did the police or Arnelle first get in touch with Randa?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know which one?
A: No.
Q: But when you spoke to Randa in this first conversation, did she acknowledge that she heard about Nicole's death?
A: No.
Q: What did she say to you about what she had earlier heard about from the police?
A: Nothing. I was in a rush. I just said, "Get me a number, Cathy. I can't talk to you. Get me the first flight out of here," and she was trying to ask me what was wrong, what was wrong, and I told her I couldn't tell her. I was-- I don't know. I may have been crying.
Q: But she knew what was wrong. Right?
A: I don't know.
Q: And what -- you got off the phone, and then what did you do?
A: I started trying to get dressed, and I started going back and forth to the phone. I started myself trying to see if I can get some numbers of airlines, I believe.
Q: And did you?
A: At some point I did, yes.
Q: You had already told Randa to get the first flight out for you. Right?
A: Yes. I said, "See if you can get a flight out for me right away."
Q: But even though you told her that, you decided to do it yourself?
A: Yeah, at the same time. I just wanted to get out of Chicago, and I'm glad I did because the flight she eventually got me was a lot-- was later than the one I ended up getting myself.
Q: You had the numbers of the airlines?
A: No.
Q: How did you get them?
A: Either from the operator--I'm sure from the operator at the hotel or I called Information.
Q: Is that the next call you made?
A: I don't know what these other numbers are.
Q: What airline did you go back on?
A: I think American.
Q: So you called a couple of airlines to get flights out. Right?
A: I talked to a lot of people. It may have been some Hertz people I talked to. It may have been some airline people I talked to. I don't even know if they were travel agents. I was just on the phone, back and forth on the phone to-- I would get one person and say it was an emergency, and then they would -- maybe one of the airlines checked the other airlines. I don't recall.
Q: When you made the calls to the airlines, did you succeed in getting an early flight?
A: Yes.
Q: And then did you call Cathy back?
A: I don't think I had got the flight by the time I talked to Cathy again.
Q: So you see-
A: But I might have.
Q:--the fourth call on Exhibit 72 is
Q: call back to Randa. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And what did you discuss in that call?
A: Probably the flights.
Q: Did you discuss what had happened in that call?
A: I may have told her then, yes.
Q: And did she ask you any questions?
A: No.
Q: Did she ask you about your activities the night before?
A: No.
Q: Can you recall anything else you discussed with Randa in that conversation?
A: No.
Q: And then what did you do next?
A: I continued to try to get dressed, and I believe I continued to go back and forth to the telephone.
Q: Who else did you call?
A: Just trying to get flights basically, trying to find the Hertz guy to come and get me.
Q: And you called him. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Is that the next number?
A: I don't know. I don't recognize any of the other numbers.
Q: The 708 number?
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay. But you did get in touch with him and told him to come, and that's when you said you were rude. Right?
A: Yeah, that-- I think I talked to him more than once, so I knew I was rude whenever I spoke to him.
Q: Why did you talk to him two times that morning?
A: Because he wasn't there, and I was trying to get him to get there and trying to figure out how far he was away, those kind of things.
Q: The first time you called Merrill of
Here, he was not at his house?
A: No, he was there.
Q: Why did you call Merrill of Hertz again?
A: To find out where he was, was he close.
Q: You mean you called him at his house?
A: I don't know.
Q: When you called him the second time, did you reach him?
A: I can't recall. I think I may have.
Q: Okay. Who else did you call?
A: I called Nicole's house, I believe.
Q: Which number is that on here?
A: xxx-xxxx.
Q: Who answered?
A: I believe I spoke to a police officer.
Q: Who was that?
A: I don't know.
Q: Tell me what was said in that call.
A: That may have been when they-when I was first asked what time I had left the night before and was I coming back to L.A.. soon.
Q: What did you tell him in answer to the question?
A: "I'm taking the first flight I can get back" and what time I left the night before.
Q: Did they ask you any other questions?
A: Not that I recall right now.
Q: Do you remember the name of the officer?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask what had happened to Nicole?
A: Everyone that I spoke to, I asked that, and they all kept saying they didn't know, they were investigating, and there was nothing they could tell me.
Q: Can you remember anything else about that call?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever write any notes down of any of these calls?
A: I may have wrote the number down, yes.
Q: Where?
A: Whatever piece of paper I had there in front of me.
Q: The police department number?
A: The number that they had given me. I thought they had given me a cell number or something.
Q: The first time you talked?
A: Yeah, I believe he gave me a cell number or something.
Q: Have you ever made any notes or memos of these conversations that you had?
A: No.
Q: And you don't know of any such notes or memos. Right?
A: No.
Q: Now, did you also call the police department in West L.A.?
A: I don't think so.
Q: One of these numbers is to the West LA. Police Department.
A: That would have been the number that they 1 had given me.
Q: What was the purpose of that call?
A: To find out more about what was going on.
Q: And did you find anything out?
A: No,
Q: And, now, there is a third call here to Merrill of Hertz. His number, I will represent to you, is 708-xxx-xxxx. You see there are three entries?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Three 708 numbers like that?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Why did you call him the third time?
A: To find out where he was.
Q: When you called the second time, was he still at his house?
A: I don't remember.
Q: And when you called him the third time was he still at his house?
A: I don't know if I got through to him, but I don't recall.
Q: Why were you so anxious to get Merrill of Hertz when you could have gotten any ride downstairs?
A: Well, I hadn't been downstairs yet and, as it turned out, there was no-- any ride downstairs waiting for me.
Q: When you called the airlines to arrange transportation, did you call downstairs to the front desk to arrange a cab?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What's your best recollection, Mr. , Simpson?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you make any other phone calls?
A: Well, here's another one to my home (Indicating).
Q: One to your house?
A: Well, this says here (Indicating).
Q: Which one is that?
A: XXX-XXXX.
Q: And who did you speak to there?
A: I believe a police officer, and I may have spoken to Arnelle at that time.
Q: Who was the police officer you spoke to at your Rockingham house?
A: I don't know.
Q: What did he say to you?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Nothing?
A: I don't remember.
Q: And Arnelle?
A: She was just upset basically. I was trying to calm her down at that point.
Q: What did Arnelle say. if anything, about what had happened to her that evening?
A: I don't think she did.
Q: Nothing?
A: I don't believe so. I don't recall. Did she have a boyfriend at that time?
A: I don't believe so. She may have, but I don't believe so.
Q: Did she ask you if you knew anything about Nicole's death?
A: No.
Q: Did you make any calls from your cell phone from the hotel?
A: No.
Q: Any-
A: Maybe. Maybe from the lobby or downstairs while I was waiting.
Q: When you went downstairs?
A: Possibly, yes.
Q: Now, you said something before that when you cut your finger or hand or whatever on the glass in the bathroom, that you were on hold?
MR. BAKER: We are not going back through the cutting thing. You spent well over an hour-
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not going to ask him about the cuts. I just want to ask him if he was on hold.
Q: Were you on hold at that time?
A: At some point in time an operator --it may have happened more than once--said, "Well, you got a minute? Let me check through it."
And I said, "Sure. I'll be right back to the phone if I'm not here," and I was trying to pack and everything, yes.
So when I say, "I was on hold," she was taking some time to do whatever she was doing, and I was trying to pack at the same time.
Q: Immediately after you cut your hand, did you tell anyone on the phone that you had done so?
A: I don't recall. I may have.
Q: Who did you tell?
A: As I just told you, I don't recall. I may have.
Q: Do you think you may have told an operator-
A: I may have.
a:--that you cut your hand?
A: I may have.
Q: Did you tell Cathy Randa?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you tell Arnelle?
A: No.
Q: Now, when you got downstairs. you said you made some cell phone calls. Is that right?
A: I said I may have, yes.
Q: Did you call Cathy Randa back?
A: I may have.
Q: What did you tell her?
A: I don't recall if I called her or not.
Q: Did you call Louis Brown?
A: I may have.
Q: Did you reach him.
A: No.
Q: You called his home?
A: Yes.
Q: And there was no answer?
A: There was an answer.
Q: Who answered?
A: Denise Brown.
Q: What did she say?
A: She started screaming.
Q: Screaming at you?
A: Yes.
Q: What was she saying?
A: I don't know. She was just yelling.
Q: Was she saying, "You killed her"?
A: I didn't hear that.
Q: Was she saying words to the effect that you were responsible for Nicole's death?
A: She might have.
Q: What did you say to her
A: She hung up.
Q: Did you get a chance to say anything?
A: No.
Q: Now, was this phone call to Denise
MR. BAKER: Phone call where Denise was. It wasn't to Denise.
MR. PETROCELLI: Withdrawn.
Q: Was this phone call to the Brown residence in which Denise answered the phone the first time that anyone had intimated to you that you were responsible for Nicole's death?
A: Obviously, yes. If that's what she did. I mean, she was just screaming, and I just--and then the phone went dead.
Q: Did you call her right back?
A: No.
Q: Who did you call after Denise?
A: I don't know.
Q: What was the sense of what she was screaming about, Mr. Simpson?
A: I don't know. She was just -seemed totally out of it, seemed hysterical.
Q: You couldn't tell what she was saying?
A: No.
Q: Did you try calling her back?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: I was dealing with my own feelings.
Q: What was your purpose in calling Lewis Brown?
A: To talk to him.
Q: Did you ask--Did you call back to talk to him?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Had you spoken to your children by this time?
A: No.
Q: And did you know where they were?
A: I believe they were -- I'm not sure at what time we're talking of. At one point I think I was aware that they were on their way to Lagoon.
Q: Here, I'll have to mark this. I think it's already an exhibit, but I can't find it right now. Here we go, 613.
From your cell phone you called XXX-XXXX. Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Whose number is that?
A: Cathy Randa.
Q: And you called Cathy after Denise. Right?
A: I don't know.
Q: Tell me what you discussed with Cathy.
A: I think the flight that I was trying to make or the flight that I made.
Q: You told her that you had caught your flight. Right?
A: I don't know.
MR. BAKER: "Caught your flight"-
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
That you were--you arranged your flight. Right?
A: Well, I told her I had arranged it --I'm sure in one of these calls I told her I had a flight. I just didn't know | if I would make the flight and-, because it was pretty tight.
Q: And do you remember anything else you and she spoke about?
A: No.
Q: And then you called the 310-XXX-XXXX. Who is that?
A: Skip Taft.
You spoke to him?
A: Yes. I believe so, yes.
Q: Is that the first time you spoke to Taft that day?
A: I don't know.
Q: What was that conversation about?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Was that for the purpose of discussing legal matters?
A: No.
Q: Then tell me what you discussed.
A: I told him what happened -what I had known had happened.
Q: And what did you say to Mr. Taft?
A: That Nicole had been killed.
Q: Did he know already?
A: I don't recall. I don't think so. I'm not sure.
Q: And what did he say?
A: I don't know. He was upset.
Q: Did you tell him that you were being blamed?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell him that Denise had accused you?
A: No.
Q: No discussion about your involvement?
A: No.
Q: Did he ask you?
A: No.
Q: Who did you call next?
A: I don't know.
Q: XXX-XXXX. Who is that?
A: Skip's office. So maybe I didn't get him at home.
Q: That's his other number?
A: Yes.
Q: And then we have XXX-XXXX. That's Taft again. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you have XXX-XXXX, and who is that?
A: I don't know.
Q: Now, all these cell phone calls are made on the way to the airport?
A: Possibly. I don't know. I could have been in front of the hotel also.
Q: Waiting for the ride. Right?
A: Waiting for a cab or Merrill.
Q: Now, I will represent to you that XXX-XXXX is the phone number of Kato Kaelin.
A: Okay.
Q: Why did you call Kato Kaelin?
A: To find out what was going on.
Q: What was going on about what?
A: What was going on about the murder of Nicole.
Q: Why would you call Kato Kaelin about Nicole's murder?
A: Because he was living at my house and there was a lot of police at my house, and I was trying to talk to anybody who might know anything that was going on.
Q: How did you know there were police at your house?
A: Because I had spoken to the police earlier.
Q: Did they tell you why they were at your house?
A: No.
Q: Did you question, "What are you doing at my house?"
A: No. I was hoping they were taking care of my family.
Q: Is that what they told you?
A: No.
Q: When you spoke to the police in all of the conversations before the Kaelin conversation, did you ask them what they were doing at your house?
A: No.
Q: Did they tell you that they were searching for evidence or anything like that?
A: No.
Q: You thought they were there taking care of your children?
A: I assumed so.
Q: Is that what you thought?
A: Yes.
Q: But you called Kato Kaelin to find out if that was true?
A: Just called Kato to find out what was going on.
Q: Now, you believed that there was activity going on at your house in which the police were searching for evidence. Right?
A: I didn't know what they were doing. No one said that to me at that time.
Q: But you wanted to find out from Kaelin what the police were doing at your house. Correct?
A: No. No. No. I just wanted to find
out from Kato or talk to him about what was going on.
Q: What was going on about what?
A: Just everything.
Q: This is a person you barely knew.
A: That's not necessarily true.
Q: Why would you call Kato Kaelin within an hour of finding out that your wife has been murdered?
A: Because he was at my home. He had talked about some noises the night before. He was at my home.
Q: When he talked about those noises, you were concerned that he might know something about the murder?
A: What he might have found. I don't know.
Q: So you made an association between the murder and those--and the sounds that Kaelin heard?
A: I may have.
Q: Yes. And tell us what assoc---tell us what he said to you about that association.
A: Nothing. I never talked to him. I don't think he was there.
Q: Did you ask him, "Kato, those sounds you heard, did you find anything?"
MR. BAKER: He wasn't there. He never talked to him.
THE WITNESS: I wasn't there. I never talked to him.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
You never got a chance to talk to him?
A: No.
MR. PETROCELLI: How did you know he wasn't there?
MR. BAKER: He just said it.
THE WITNESS: I just said it.
MR. BAKER: You've got to listen. David's got it on his screen.
MR. PETROCELLI: He did say.
Q: Did you talk to him that day?
A: That day.
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you talk to him before you arrived in Los Angeles?
A: No.
Q: But you tried a couple of times. Right?
A: I don't know. I don't know if that was the only time I tried or not.
Q: You tried at least three or four times to call Kato Kaelin by the time you landed in Los Angeles, didn't you?
A: I don't know. I don't know if that's true. I might have.
Q: If the phone records indicate it's true, then it's true. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: The cell phone records and the Airfone records. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And your purpose in calling Kaelin was to find out what he knew. Right?
A: No. Just to find out what was going on.
Q: And to talk about your story and his story. Right?
A: No.
Q: And to talk about what he had seen the night before. Right?
A: No.
Q: And to talk about what you and he had done the night before. Right?
A: No.
Q: You deny all those things?
A: Yes.
Q: You deny that that was your purpose or intention?
A: Yes.
Q: You had no such thought in mind.
A: That's correct.
Q: You just wanted to call and see how he was doing. Is that right?
A: Not necessarily.
MR. BAKER: Enough.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
''Not necessarily"
A: No.
Q: What did you want to call him for?
A: As I said, to find out what was going on.
Q: That was the first time you wanted to call him. Why did you want to call him two, three, four times?
A: Because I never got him.
Q: But you could ask other people
A: Ask them what?
Q:--what was going on.
A: I did.
Q: Why were you so insistent on finding out from Kato Kaelin what was going on?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. That's argumentative.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's not argumentative.
MR. BAKER: Of course, because he was "so insistent"?
MR. PETROCELLI: Sure.
MR. BAKER: That's your characterization.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
You had a desire to get in touch with Kato Kaelin. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you wanted to find out what was going on. Right?
A: Right.
Q: From Kato Kaelin. Right?
A: From anybody that can tell me.
Q: From Kato Kaelin, too. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Who else did you call besides Kato Kaelin?
A: At my home?
MR. BAKER: Other than what he- we've been testifying to for a half an hour, 45 minutes?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
You called Leroy Taft, Cathy Randa. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And they are among your closest friends and advisors. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And Kato Kaelin is not. Right?
A: But Kato Kaelin is at my home, and since the police wouldn't tell me anything and Arnelle tried to tell me whatever she knew, which was nothing, maybe Kato knew something that was going on.
Q: Did you try reaching Kaelin at various numbers?
A: That morning, no. I wouldn't know any other number to try.
Q: Did you talk to Taft or Randa about where Kaelin could be found?
A: No.
Q: Excuse me?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask Cathy or--Randa, Arnelle or Taft, anyone else. to get in touch with Kaelin?
A: No.
Q: Or to help you get in touch with Kaelin?
A: No.
Q: Or where Kaelin could be found?
A: No.
Q: Or what Kaelin knew?
A: No.
Q: What made you associate the noises that Kaelin heard with Nicole's murder?
A: I didn't really associate anything. I just--when I left my house, Kato was concerned about some noises, and the next thing I heard about my life in L.A.. is that Nicole was murdered. So the police wouldn't tell me anything. Arnelle didn't know anything. Kato was at my home. Maybe he knew something.
Q: So you thought the murderer might have gone to your home?
A: Not necessarily, no.
Q: But that was a possibility?
A: I didn't know.
Q: But that was a thought that entered your mind.
A: Not really, no.
Q: Then what was the--why did you make that association?
A: I didn't really make the association.
MR. BAKER He didn't say-
MR. PETROCELLI Mr. Baker-
MR. BAKER: He said he did not associate those noises. Read it back.
MR. PETROCELLI Excuse me, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: I want it read back.
MR. PETROCELLI: Earlier in the testimony he said he made that association, and I am asking him why he did so.
MR. BAKER: I don't agree with that. That isn't what he said.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you want to now say that you didn't make that association?
MR. BAKER: Don't argue with him, because it's on the thing, and I wrote it down. He did not associate.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Nicole was killed at Bundy. Right?
A Yes
Q: And the noises were heard at Rockingham. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: But because you heard -- because Kaelin told you about noises at Rockingham, you wanted to find out from Kaelin what he knew about the murder of Nicole at Bundy. Is that right?
A: No.
Q: You deny that?
A: Yes.
Q: What caused you to even think that there was any connection, association or relationship between the thumps you heard at Rockingham-Excuse me. Withdrawn.
MR. BAKER: He never heard any thumps.
MR. PETROCELLI: Withdrawn.
Q: What made you think there was any association, connection or relationship between the noises that Kaelin told you he had heard at Rockingham with your wife's murder at Bundy?
A: Nothing.
Q: You said a few moments ago that you did make such a connection in your mind.
A: No, I didn't say that. I said that the last thing that I talked to about my home when I left was Kato. He was concerned. And the next thing I heard was Nicole was murdered. I had talked to Arnelle. She didn't know anything. The police wouldn't tell me anything. Kato was there. He was an adult. Arnelle was somewhat hysterical. So I just wanted to ask Kato what was going on.
Q: And what was the connection in your mind between what concern Kato had expressed to you when you left the property at Rockingham and your wife's murder?
A: None.
MR. PETROCELLI: Can you read that, page 165, line 13.
(Discussion held off the record.)
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me read it on the real-time. Okay?
Question: So you have made an association -- "Question" -- This was a few minutes ago, Mr. Simpson.
"Why would you call Kato Kaelin within an hour of finding out that your wife has been murdered?"
"Answer Because he was at my home. He had talked about something the night before. He was at my home.
"Whether he talked about those noises that you were--
"Question: Whether he talked about those noises, you were concerned that he might"-- I can't read this real-time. It's in abbreviations, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: I didn't say a word, sir. Don't look accusatory at me.
MR. PETROCELLI: Can you read it, Mr. Blasier?
MR. BLASIER: I'm not in real-time.
MR. PETROCELLI: Can we stop for a second? Let's go back to it, David. Okay? You can find it for me.
(Record read from Page 1435, Page 9 through Page 1435, Line 20.)
MR. PETROCELLI: We are back on record.
Q: I now had the reporter read to you that you made an association-
A: No.
MR. BAKER: No. He said he may have. You say he did.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
I now have had the reporter read back to you your prior testimony where you said that you may have made an association between the noises that Kato told you about and Nicole 's murder.
Did you hear that testimony?
A: Yes.
Q: What was that association that you may have made?
A: Wasn't an association. It was just --it was noises he had said the night before. I knew he vas at the house. Arnelle was upset. The police wouldn't tell me anything. That's it.
Q: But you said you may have made such an association. What did you mean by that?
A: I meant that that morning--
MR. BAKER: You've answered that question. Don't answer it again
MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer?
MR. BAKER: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
You wanted to talk to Kaelin to cover your tracks. Right?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: You've been thinking about this.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Who did you call after Kaelin?
A: I don't know.
Q: Who is Jonah Wilson?
A: A friend of Arnelle's.
Q: Why did you call him?
A: I believe Arnelle went to his house.
Q: How did you know that?
A: I was told that.
Q: By whom?
A: Arnelle.
Q: When?
A: Whenever I talked to her previous to that.
Q: Did you speak to Jonah Wilson that evening?
A: I don't know.
Q: On the plane?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't remember?
A: No.
Q: When you called Jonah Wilson's number, the only person you spoke to was Arnelle?
A: I don't know if I spoke to anyone. I just don't recall.
Q: Phone records show 10 minutes' worth of calls to the number of Jonah Wilson.
A: What do you mean, "worth of calls "?
Q: Two calls totaling 10 minutes from the Airfone.
A: Well, I must have talked to Arnelle then.
Q: Not Jonah?
A: If Jonah was taking care of her, I may have talked to Jonah a little bit, too.
Q: Did Arnelle go with Mr. Cowlings with your children?
A: I don't think so but, as I just told you before, I didn't know.
Q: You think you might have spoken to Mr. Wilson?
A: I may have.
Q: Had you met him before?
A: Yes.
Q: How many occasions?
A: Oh, I've known him since he was a kid. They grew up together.
Q: Is he the son of Carl Wilson?
A: Of the Beach Boys, Brian--one of the Wilson guys, yes.
Q: Yeah. And was he a boyfriend of Arnelle's?
A: No.
Q: Just a friend?
A: Her best friend for 15 years now. Since they were kids.
Q: Did you remember talking to Mr. Jonah Wilson?
A: No.
Q: Not at all?
A: No.
Q: Did you make a lot of phone calls from the airplane?
A: I may have tried.
MR. BAKER: I don't know what "a lot" is, but-
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Like 30?
A: I may have tried.
Q: What was your purpose in making all these phone calls from the airplane?
A: Well, my purpose wasn't to make all those calls. It was just tough getting through because the plane kept --airplane's phone kept cutting out.
Q: The records show numerous calls to Cathy Randa and Leroy Taft.
A: Yeah.
Q: Why were you calling Leroy Taft and Cathy Randa so many times?
MR. BAKER: Well, show him the phone records and see what "so many times" are rather than--
MR. PETROCELLI: Would you like to see them, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: Yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
MR. BAKER: "Lot of calls" and "so many times," that's-
MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to mark this as the next exhibit in order, which is 73.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 73 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
You want to take a--you can take a moment to look--
A: You have to show me. I can't read this.
Q: You understand that when you make Airfone calls. they're billed to your credit card. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you made all the phone calls on your credit card. Right?
A: I'm sure I did, yes.
Q: And your credit card was [DELETED]. Correct?
A: I don't know.
Q: But you don't have any reason to doubt that. do you?
A: No.
Q: Now, I have here a chart that indicates the order of these phone calls. and the first one is to Kato Kaelin on the airplane. The last call you had made on your cellular was to Kato Kaelin, and the first call on the Airfone was to Kato Kaelin.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: So you were very interested in getting in touch with Mr. Kaelin. Right?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
THE WITNESS: No, not really.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Not really?
A: I didn't get through. If you don't get through, you try again.
Q: First call on the airplane to Mr. Kaelin.
MR. BAKER: You can characterize it any way you want.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
What was the purpose of the numerous calls on here, without having to go through each and every one of them, to Randa and Taft?
A: To tell them my flight, but I couldn't get through, so I kept trying until I got through.
Q: Once you got through and told them your flight, was there any further need to talk to them?
A: I don't know about ''need," but. you know, someone was just murdered, as far as I knew, and I was hurting. Maybe they were just trying to --I think we might have prayed a little bit. We--I don 't know.
Q: Who did you pray with?
A: I believe Cathy. I think Skip a little bit. When I said ''pray," we got a little religious with one another. Skip's a religious--somewhat religious person. But, yes, I think it was just they were trying to do what a friend would do in these circumstances.
Q: What do you mean, "somewhat religious"?
A: He goes to church.
Q: Is he a Christian?
A: Yes.
Q: And you're a Christian?
A: Yes.
Q: And Randa is?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you say you got religious together, what was the reason for that?
A: I don't know. Someone was-died in our life. That's what tends to happen when that happens.
Q: Was there any praying or religious-- expression of religious expression for you?
A: To say strong, yes. I'm sure that was-- I think that's what they were trying to do, to soothe me, and in a sense I was trying to soothe Cathy, I know that, because she was pretty upset and distraught. So we were--we were just trying to, you know, soothe each other, I guess, you know.
Q: Was there any discussion in any of these phone calls with Randa or Taft about your involvement?
A: No.
Q: Not once?
A: Not once.
Q: Not a single question to you?
A: No.
Q: About whether you knew anything?
A: No.
Q: About whether you knew who might have killed Nicole?
A: No.
Q: About what your whereabouts were?
A: No.
Q: Whether you had an alibi?
A: No.
Q: They didn't ask you any of these things?
A: No.
Q: Never came up once?
A: Never.
Q: Was there any discussion in any of these conversations with Taft and Randa about what the cops knew?
A: No.
Q: What information that they were uncovering?
A: No.
Q: Now, after you had called Randa and Taft and Kato Kaelin all these times, had you spoken to your children?
MR. BAKER: Let's-
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. BAKER:--not put the pejorative "all these times" on it.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't want to go through them all, but there's numerous calls to them.
MR. BAKER: The times indicated on Exhibit 73" is fine with me.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You had not yet spoken to your children. Correct?
A: I think they were en route to Lagoon at that time.
Q: During the entire time you were on the airplane?
A: I don't know about the entire time, but during the course of that time I did speak to one of my daughters: Arnelle.
Q: But not to Justin or Sydney.
A: No.
Q: Weren't you concerned that your children had just lost their mother?
A: Yes.
Q: Didn't you want to speak to them above anything else?
A: Once I got myself together, I certainly did, yes.
Q: Didn't you put their welfare above yours?
A: They were in good hands. A.C is the best.
Q: But he's not their father, is he?
A: No. And I couldn't have them in my arms because I was on an airplane, and I did not want to talk to them on a crowded airplane, and I wanted to get myself together before I spoke to them, yes.
Q: So you made a choice not to speak to them until you were in person?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you stick to that choice?
A: I don't know. I may have spoke to them that night once I was at my home.
Q: On the telephone?
A: I may have, yes. I'm not sure.
Q: . When did you first speak to Nicole's parents?
A: Sometime that day, maybe even on the airplane. but sometime that day.
Q: And did you ever speak to Denise again?
A: No.
Q: Who did you speak to?
A: I believe Judy.
Q: And tell me about your conversation with Judy.
A: It was just a matter of us, you know, trying to, you know, trying to comfort one another.
Q: Did Judy ask you any questions about your whereabouts?
A: No.
Q: Was she accusatory at all?
A: No.
Q: Did she ask you if you knew anything about how Nicole had died?
A: No.
Q: Or who would kill Nicole?
A: No.
Q: When did you first find out that Nicole had been murdered?
A: The morning of the police call.
Q: They told you that it was a murder?
A: Yeah. I believe his words were "murdered," but he may have said, "Nicole was killed," but I thought he said "murdered."
Q: In thinking back, he may have said, "Nicole was killed." Is that what you're saying?
A: Yeah. But I'm almost positive he said "murdered," but "killed," could have used that word, too.
Q: If he did use that word "killed" rather than "murdered, " why did you believe she was murdered?
A: He said "killed" or "murdered," and when I asked him what did he mean. his litany was, "We don't know. We're trying to find out."
I'm sure if it was anything other than "murdered," he would have told me. It was a car accident--if it was a car accident. But he was very insistent on telling me that they were investigating, they didn't know, that they were trying to find out, OJ.
Q: So as far as you know, she could have been run over by a car. Right?
A: I didn't feel that, no.
Q: You didn't feel that way?
A: No.
Q: But he didn't tell you how she had been killed. Correct?
A: No. That's correct.
Q: There are several calls to the Simpson Enterprises cellular phone. What were those calls for, and to whom were they made?
A: I'm sorry. I don't know what a-what do you mean, "Simpson Enterprises cellular phone"?
Q: You made several phone calls from the airplane to a number in the name of Simpson Enterprises--to a cell phone in the name of Simpson Enterprises.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: That's Cathy's cell phone?
A: I would think so, yes.
Q: And you called a number in the San Fernando Valley, 818-XXX-XXXX. Whose number is that?
A: I don't know.
Q: Five-minute phone call? I withdraw that. That call was made from your cellular phone to a San Fernando phone number, the 213-XXX-XXXX cellular phone. Would that have been Cathy's call?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know whose number that is?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell Cathy or Leroy to call anybody for you?
A: No . Yes.
Q: Who?
A: I told Leroy at one point to call maybe Howard Weitzman.
Q: And why did you ask him to do that?
A: Because a lawyer sitting next to me on the phone suggested that I should.
Q: A lawyer sitting next to you on the phone?
A: Yeah, while I was on the phone on the plane.
Q: Oh, while you were on the airplane.
A: Yeah.
Q: What was that lawyer's name?
A: I don't know. He was in court, though
Q: And how did that lawyer know that you might need a lawyer?
A: He--the plane was sold out. The seats were tight. As I was talking on the phone, I guess he got the gist of what was going on, and I was crying some, and he was somewhat comforting, and we talked a little bit about it, and he made this suggestion to me.
Q: Well, Mr. Simpson, what did you say to him that could have led him to suggest to you that you needed a lawyer?
MR. BAKER: That's calling for speculation on the part of this witness.
1 BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: WHAT did you say to him?
MR. BAKER: If he said anything.
BY MR. PETROCELLI: This man said, "You should call a lawyer." Right?
A: No . He said, "It may be a good idea if you have a lawyer."
Q: Did you have a lawyer?
A: A criminal lawyer, no.
Q: What discussion that you and this man had led to a suggestion about a criminal lawyer?
A: It was just talking. He heard me talking to Skip Taft about what was going on and that I--Skip was asking me, I'm sure-
Can I talk about what Skip and I talked about?
MR. BAKER: If you weren't talking about the legal stuff, you can.
THE WITNESS: No. Just about him picking me up, and he wanted to know where I wanted to go, and I said, "I need to go to my house because the police said that they'll be there and for me to"--"they need to talk to me right when I land," and evidently he heard it. You'd have to ask the guy at this point. Evidently he heard that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Whose idea was Howard Weitzman?
A: Skip or I. I guess. One of us.
Q: Now, did you and this other man next to you, whose name I don't have in mind right now, discuss that you might be a target?
A: No.
Q: Or a suspect?
A: No.
Q: But yet he recommended that you might need a criminal lawyer?
A: He didn't say "criminal lawyer" -- well, he may have. He said, "If you're gonna talk to the police. is your lawyer"--I said, "My lawyer's a business lawyer."
He said, "You might want to think about having another lawyer there," and that's when I called Skip and said what this guy had just said to me.
Q: Did you speak to Weitzman from the phone from the airplane?
A: I don't remember.
Q: When was the first time you made contact with Weitzman?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Was it when you were on the ground in Los Angeles?
A: May have been when I was at my house
Q: Can you remember anything else you and this passenger discussed?
A: No.
Q: Now, you also have a phone call to Marcus Allen.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you reach him?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk to his wife?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk to anybody?
A: I can't recall if someone was staying at his house at that time or not.
Q: The phone records show a minute and 20 seconds to that number. Does that jog your memory at all?
A: No.
Q: What was your purpose in calling Marcus Allen?
A: He was a friend.
Q: One of your closest friends?
A: Yes.
Q: And you called Tawny Kiuen. Who was she?
A: A friend of Cathy's and a former friend of mine--and a friend of mine.
Q: Former girlfriend of yours?
A: Yes.
Q: And why did you call Tawny?
A: I was trying to get Cathy and I wasn't getting through, and I didn't know if Cathy had headed to her house or -- I think Cathy may have -- I'm not sure if Cathy had changed her cell phone or may have just changed her cell phone, but if Cathy called her, I wanted her to know I was looking for her.
Q: That was the sole purpose of calling Tawny, was to get in touch with Cathy?
A: Yes.
Q: Is there anything else you can tell us about all of these phone calls to Cathy and Skip other than make arrangements to pick you up?
A: The problem was getting through. That was the problem. Most of those phone calls didn't get through.
Q: 29 of them got through.
A: I disagree with that.
Q: Maybe I misspoke. Let me look. How many do you think got through?
A: I don't know. With Skip, maybe two or three. And maybe with Cathy. one or two.
Q: The notations on Exhibit 73 say, "48 call attempts. 27 Billable calls(Calls completed). Do you believe you had 27 phone conversations?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Much fewer than those?
A: Yes.
Q: One call to Leroy Taft is minutes-plus near the end of your flight.
A: Yes.
Q: Was that about the lawyer?
A: I don't know. We may have just been commiserating or -- at that time.
Q: What did you mean before when you said you wanted to get yourself together?
A: I think I was emotionally somewhat shattered at that time, and I wanted to be strong for I my kids.
Q: Is that the only thing you had in mind?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was the purpose of all these phone calls, was to get yourself together?
MR. BAKER: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Don't answer that.
THE WITNESS: I don't know the connection-
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. That's argumentative, contrary to what you've just been doing for two hours, hour and a half.
MR. PETROCELLI: Don't exaggerate, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: I apologize. An hour and 24 minutes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you got picked up at the airport, you've already told us Randa and Taft were there, and you went off.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you sign any autographs on the airplane?
A: I may have.
Q: Coming back to Los Angeles?
A: I may have.
Q: And did you sign any autographs going to -- from the hotel to the airport and onto the plane in Chicago?
A: I may have.
Q: AND from the part where you departed the plane and got into the car in Los Angeles?
A: I don't know.
Q: Now, when you got picked up by Taft and Randa. did you discuss the subject of Weitzman or some other criminal lawyer?
A: The subject?
Q: YEAH, whether such a person had been arranged.
A: I may have.
Q: And were you told that Weitzman had been retained?
A: I believe so. I don't know about retained, but he'll be at my house when I got there.
Q: Did you go directly to the house?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you got to the house, you got out of the car?
A: Yes.
Q: DID you take your luggage?
A: My grip.
Q: What about the bag in the trunk, the Louis Vuitton with the suit bag in it?
A: I assumed that Skip or Cathy would grab it. I later found out that Cathy would grab it, and they wouldn't let her on the property.
Q: And what did Cathy do with it?
A: She stood there--You re asking me secondhand knowledge now.
Q: Yeah.
A: She stood there, and at some point Bob Kardashian came and held it for her and tried to get on the property, and the police wouldn't let him.
Q: What did Kardashian do with your suitcase?
A: I gather took it and put it in his car.
Q: And did he take it to his home?
MR. BAKER: I don't know the sequence of this because he doesn't have any firsthand knowledge of this.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
You might have heard later on-
MR. BAKER: So what?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
--from Bob, and I would like to know, based on any information you have, where that suitcase next went when Kardashian took it from Randa and put it in his car.
A: He may have taken it to my office, and he may have taken it home. I don't know
Q: When is the next time you saw the suitcase. Louis Vuitton suitcase?
A: I don't -- I'm not sure. Maybe later that day or maybe the next day. I'm just not sure.
Q: Did you ask anyone, "Hey, where's my suitcase?"
A: No.
Q: Later on that day when you were back at your Rockingham home-that evening, I guess. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: --did ask you for your suitcase?
A: No.
Q: Ask to see it?
A: No.
Q: Did the police ask for it?
A: No.
Q: You don't know if it was at Kardashian's house or at the--at your office. Is that what you're saying?
A: Or if he brought it back to my house that evening. I just don't recall.
Q: Do you remember the next time you saw it?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember unpacking it?
A: No.
Q: Since that suitcase was taken out of Kardashian's car, that Louis Vuitton case, did you ever see it again after that?
A: In court.
Q: That was the next time you saw it?
A: That I'm aware of, yes.
Q: And did you ever find out from any source what happened to your suitcase after Kardashian took it?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever ask?
A: No.
Q: Who was Louise Perry?
A: I don't know.
Q: That name means nothing to you?
A: No.
Q: Now, there are calls from your Rockingham residence later in the evening of the 13th to a number--to the phone number of Ron Shipp, (805) XXX-XXXX. Did you make those calls?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Shipp make those calls from your house to his house?
A: I would assume so.
Q: Your calendar shows a luncheon with Mr. Shipp on the date of June 3, 1994.
A: I don't believe so.
Q: You don't believe it shows such a luncheon?
A: No.
Q: Exhibit A shows an entry for June 3. "Lunch Ron Shipp."
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Do you see that?
A: Yeah.
MR. BAKER: And Exhibit 8-A is both Cathy and-
THE WITNESS: This is Cathy's. This is not 12 mine. The ones she gives me don't have all her things on it.
MR. BAKER: Let's look at 8-B, because 8-B is the one he gets.
MR. PETROCELLI: Wait a second. Before--wait a second. Cathy wasn't going to Sydney's dance 17l recital at 5:00 p.m. Correct?
A: No. But on her calendar she puts all of her events on also, as you can see.
Q: In any event-
MR. BAKER: Let's see 8-B and let's fund out if we have a luncheon with Ron Shipp, if you are going to pursue this line of inquiry.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
I want to ask you a question: Did you lunch with Ron Shipp-
A: No.
Q: --on June 3rd?
A: No.
Q: Did Cathy?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you ever find out Cathy did?
A: No. It was about that time that I knew she was supposed to have a talk with him about showing up at my house.
Q: So you think that's what that date was for?
A: May have been. I don't know.
Q: Making a note there about that?
A: No.
Q: What is your note?
A: My note says--I don't even know what it says. One says, "Who is Louise Perry?" The other one says, "God bless America." The other one says "Justice for all." One says "Skip Taft."
MR. BAKER: You don't have to answer anything about your notes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Well, Louise Perry is a name you are going to follow up on, Mr. Simpson?
MR. BAKER: You are not entitled to ask him about notes he takes during
Q: deposition.
MR. PETROCELLI: During testimony?
MR. BAKER: Yeah. He is entitled to take notes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, yeah, but it might-
MR. BAKER: He's entitled to have some confidentiality during the deposition.
MR. PETROCELLI: It might have some relevance to the proceedings.
MR. BAKER: It might. Give me the pen. Don't you give him that pen, David.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Now, Mr. Simpson, on the plane ride to Chicago, did you make any phone calls?
A: No.
Q: Did you sleep?
A: I may have dozed, yes.
Q: That was a red-eye. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And it was dark. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You were sitting in First Class?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there somebody right next to you?
A: No.
Q: And were you on the aisle or near the window?
A: I probably sat in both seats.
Q: Did you -- How long did you sleep?
A: I told you I may have dozed. I'm not sure.
Q: Did you read?
A: Some, yes.
Q: How long do you think you dozed?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you sleep on airplanes?
A: Sometimes.
Q: Do you sleep on red-eyes?
A: Sometimes.
Q: Did you sleep more or less the same that you usually sleep on this particular flight?
A: No,
Q: You slept less?
A: Normally my red-eyes are to New York. This was a much shorter flight.
Q: So you slept less?
A: If I dozed, yes.
Q: You slept less because it was a shorter flight. Right?
A: I don't know.
Q: Were you agitated at all?
A: No .
Q: Upset about anything?
A: No.
Q: Were you Betting up to go to the bathroom?
A: I did, yes.
MR. BAKER: More than one?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Did you get up to go to the bathroom at all?
A: Yes.
Q: More than once?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times?
A: A few times.
Q: Three or four?
A: Possibly.
Q: Five or six?
A: I doubt that, but possibly.
Q: Possibly l0?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Under 10?
A: Yes, I'm sure under l0.
Q: Somewhere between 5 and 10?
A: No, I'm not saying that. I said may have been three or four. May have been five.
Q: How long was the flight?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you drink a lot of water?
A: Yes.
Q: About how many glasses of water?
A: A lot.
Q: Five or six?
A: At least.
Q: Maybe 10?
A: I don't think so.
Q: You usually drink that much water?
A: I have to, with my medication and on airplanes, yes.
Q: What medication were you taking that night?
A: Well, I was taking a whole lot of Motrin and stuff, and when I fly-when I'm on my 1 medication, I take a lot of water. You have to. The Sulfasalazine, I don't think I was on it at that time, but when I fly and I--and I give this as advice often, you have to drink a lot of water if you're gonna fight jet lag, and I knew I--I was still fighting jet lag from the previous week, so I was drinking a lot of water, yes.
Q: And did you talk to any of the passengers on that flight?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: Howard Bingham and briefly to Craig Baumgartner's partner, whose name I can't think of right now.
Q: Business partner?
A: Yes.
Q: He happened to be on the flight?
A: Yes.
Q: Were they both in First Class?
A: No.
Q: They both were in Coach?
A: No.
Q: Where were they?
A: Bingham was in Coach. He was in First Class.
Q: And they both came up to talk to you?
A: Well, he was in First Class, so he didn't l have to come up to talk to me, but Bingham did.
Q: What I meant was, was he seated right next to you where he could talk without getting out of his seat?
A: It was a small First Class, and we spoke when we first got on the plane.
Q: Did you get out of your seat at all to go speak to anybody?
A: Once the plane was in flight?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't believe so.
Q: What about before it was in flight?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: Bingham and this other guy.
Q: And you went to each of their seats?
A: No. I just stood up in the aisle and talked.
Q: Just chitchat?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you talk to any of the flight attendants?
A: Possibly.
Q: Do you remember their names?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk to the pilot?
A: Yes.
Q: When?
A: At some point during the flight.
Q: He came back to talk to you?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you and he talk about?
A: I don't recall. Football maybe.
Q: How long?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you give any autographs on the airplane?
A: Yes.
Q: To whom?
A: To the pilot for sure and maybe to one or two other people. I'm not sure.
Q: That came up to you in the cabin?
A: Yes. Possibly, yes.
Q: Were you sweaty?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Have others said you were sweaty?
A: I don't know.
Q: Were you agitated?
A: No.
Q: Where you edgy or jumpy from the medication?
A: No.
Q: When had you started taking that medication that makes you drink a lot of water?
A: Originally? As I told you-
Q: That day.
A: --I don't think I was taking it that day. I think I said that on the record here. I don't think I was taking it during that period of time, but I've been taking it for two or three years previous to this.
Q: But--So you were drinking a lot of water because you were flying.
A: Yes.
Q: I see.
A: And I drink a lot of water anyway, but because I was flying, I drink even more.
Q: Is that one of the reasons you went to the bathroom several times?
A: I would imagine so.
MR. BAKER: He is not a doctor, but I think that's-
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Fair assumption?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: We've been going an hour and a half.
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
MR. BAKER: Should we take a break?
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:41. (Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 3:20. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 74 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Baker, as you know, I served an Amended Notice of Deposition, which I've u1 attached as Exhibit 74, and no documents--there is--let me see how many there are here. Exhibit 74 contains 37 categories of documents, and none has been produced thus far. Are you producing anything?
MR. BAKER: No. I think you've gotten our objections. I'm willing to sit down with you on Wednesday and go over all of these to tighten them up and to produce with you what we have.
MR. PETROCELLI: And at the resumption of Mr. Simpson's deposition, then, they will be made available before then?
MR. BAKER: Yeah. Whatever documents that you and I agree on. If we don't agree, we will go in and get judicial review of it, and they will be made before the next depo--they will be made available to you before the next depo.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. That's Exhibit 74.
MR. BAKER: And they are really not all documents. I mean, what ever they are.
MR. PETROCELLI: Some of the items are things-
MR. BAKER: Right, and I'm not arguing about that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. We are not going to get into that now.
Mr. Simpson. in April you went down to shoot a movie called FROGMAN.
A: Yes.
Q: Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you played a character called Bullfrog. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: A Navy SEAL character. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You received some training to perform your part in that movie. Right?
A: Incorrect.
Q: No training at all?
A: None.
Q: Was there a person who worked with you to show you some of the moves?
A: I don't know what you mean by "the moves."
Q: Some of the physical actions that you would have to take as the character Bullfrog.
A: On the set there was a stunt coordinator, yes.
Q: And that stunt coordinator gave you some training on how to perform some of the actions that you had to take in the role as Bullfrog. Correct?
A: No.
Q: What did that stunt coordinator have to do with you?
A: He would show us, if a punch had to be shown from the camera, where to punch so that it would look like a hit in the camera, stuff like that.
Q: There were scenes in that movie when you would wield a knife. Correct?
A: No. There was one scene.
Q: Where you wielded a serrated dive knife. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Did anybody show you in connection with that particular scene how to perform the physical actions?
A: How they wanted it to be done, yes.
Q: And who did so?
A: The director.
Q: Did anyone else?
A: No.
Q: Did you receive any advice or training, whether on the set, off the set, from anybody in connection with your movements and actions in the role of Bullfrog?
A: No.
Q: Have you heard anyone say in court that you did so?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever spoken to a former military person or current military person about some of these actions, knives, knife scenes or anything like that, how to hold a knife, wield a knife?
A: No.
Q: Never in your life?
A: Never.
Q: Never had any kind of informal training on that at all?
A: None.
MR. PETROCELLI: I would like to mark as the next exhibit in order, Exhibit 75, excerpts from the script of FROGMAN.
Q: That was the name of the project?
A: Yes.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 75 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
These were obtained again from the LAPD SID inspection that we had a while ago. Did the movie ever get released, by the way?
A: No, I don't believe so.
Q: Do you know why not?
A: No.
Q: Do you have a working copy of the film?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever seen it?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see the dailies on this?
A: Some days, yes.
Q: Did you ever see any rough cut of the movie?
A: No.
Q: Now, I would like to refer you to pages 16 and 17, where it describes a scene where you enter the interior of a dive shop at night. Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: And you're Bullfrog. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Near the bottom of the first page it says, "Bullfrog has entered the dive shop" --quote, "Without a sound. Bullfrog has entered the dive shop."
A: Where? Where is this at? Is it the last page or second to the last page.
Q: Second to the last page. "Without a sound, Bullfrog has entered the dive show shop. Doesn't turn on the lights. Doesn't have to." Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Next line: "Bullfrog comes up with a lethal, serrated dive knife.'
A: Yes.
Q: And then, "Bullfrog cases the area. All clear."
A: Yes.
Q: "Looking toward the back of the shop. Through the maze of counters and gear, he sees a shadow."
A: Yes.
Q: "Bullfrog's SEAL," capital letters S-E-A-L, "career. Bullfrog steals past. Silent. bullfrog's made a circle. He's behind the shadow. He lunges and, in one swift move, has the intruder on the floor, one arm twisted back in a punishing hold." Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: That character was a woman that you apprehended. Correct?
A: Correct. That this is talking about, yes.
Q: Correct. In this script?. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And the knife that you were holding, was that a real knife?
A: They may have given me a rubber knife when I grabbed her
Q: But before they may have given you a rubber knife. you had a real knife?
A: Yes.
Q: In what hand were you holding that knife during the particular scene that I described?
A: I believe the left hand.
Q: Left hand?
A: Yes.
Q: Are you positive about that?
A: Yes. I believe. I'm not totally positive, but the camera on this side (Indicating)-
Q: Motioning to your left now. Right?
A: Yeah. I believe the camera was on this side, so I think that's how we shot it.
Q: And it was dark during this scene. Right?
A: Well, yeah, the camera shot it dark, but you have to light it where it's not dark. Otherwise you wouldn't see it.
Q: But it's supposed to depict the nighttime scene. Right?
A: The key word is "supposed to depict." Yes?
Q: It's a night scene. Right?
A: We're indoors, but it's supposed to be a night scene, yes.
Q: What were you wearing, Mr. Simpson, during this scene in FROGMAN?
A: Whatever wardrobe they gave me.
Q: What was it?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Dark outfit. Right?
A: I'm not sure of that.
Q: Gloves on. Right?
A: No.
Q: No gloves?
A: No
Q: Did you have anything on your head?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: And what kind of dark outfit did you have on?
A: I told you I don't believe that--I don't know if it was a dark outfit or not.
Q: Can't remember the color?
A: I thought it was a light-blue sweater, but I could be wrong there, but, you know, I was-- this guy just finished eating dinner somewhere, so I don't recall it being a dark outfit at all, no.
Q: Who taught you how to hold the knife in the manner that you did?
A: I don't know if anybody taught me. I think the director wanted me to hold it up.
Q: And who taught you how to make the move by which you apprehended the shadowy figure?
A: The director said, "Come up and grab her and pull her this way."
Q: And is that what you did?
A: Yes. Not the way it's written here, but that's what I did.
Q: Did you ever see the footage of this scene?
A: No.
Q: Who was the director?
A: This is embarrassing. Michael... You know, I apologize. I can't think of his name.
Q: Do you know whether this script was based on generous part on a book?
A: No.
Q: Tom Clancy book?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever read the book WITHOUT REMORSE?
A: No.
Q: If--In portraying the character of Bullfrog and in performing this particular scene-
A: First, let's clear one thing up: Just 'cause it read this way, it doesn't mean this is the way the scene was shot, and it wasn't shot the way it reads.
MR. BAKER: He didn't ask you about that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
How was it shot?
A: In pieces.
MR. BAKER: This is OJ. being OJ.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
It was shot in pieces." What does that mean?
A: That means it wasn't shot like this. All these arms behind the back and that stuff never happened.
Q: What happened?
A: I just grabbed her and pulled her out of what they call the camera. Grabbed her from behind and pulled her out of the camera scene.
Q: What part never happened?
A: All this pulled down on the ground and pulling the hands behind the back.
Q: Well, did someone else perform those movements?
A: No. It just wasn't shot that way. The director had took his license and shot it his way.
Q: He changed the movements when he decided to shoot the scene?
A: Yes.
Q: But you still came up--You still entered the dive shop at night. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you didn't turn on the lights. Right?
A: k wasn't a dive shop, so there was no lights to turn on. It was-
Q: It was supposed to be a dark scene. Correct?
A: Yeah.
MR. BAKER: Come on.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
And you still held a lethal serrated dive knife. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. How long was that knife?
A: I don't know.
Q: More than 6 inches?
MR. BAKER: You talking about the entire knife or the blade?
MR. PETROCELLI: The blade.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
About 6 inches?
A: Could have been, but I don't know.
Q: What did you do with that knife?
A: It was theirs. It was the people that, you know, doing the movie.
Q: Did you keep it as a souvenir?
A: No.
Q: Are you sure?
A: Yes.
Q: What about the clothing? Did you keep any of the clothing as a souvenir?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: Are you sure?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever met a Navy SEAL?
A: Yes.
Q: Within a year before June 12, 1994?
A: Say that again.
Q: Within one year before June 12, 1994, did you ever-
A: Yes.
Q: --have any contact with a Navy SEAL?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: One guy was a guy who worked on the set, and one guy's wife worked at the hotel in Cabo that I was at.
Q: And the guy that worked on the set who was a Navy SEAL, what was his job?
A: I guess he was-- I believe he co-wrote the script, and he was there as a technical adviser.
Q: And what is the name of that person?
A: I don't know. I don't recall. I'm sorry.
Q: When is the last time you spoke to that Navy SEAL?
A: Sometime I believe during the movie. I don't think I talked to him since then. I may have, but I don't recall.
Q: Did you ever have any discussions with the Navy SEAL about the script-
A: I'm sure I did, yes.
Q:--as the movie was being shot?
A: I'm sure I did.
Q: Including the scene we just mentioned?
A: I don't think we ever specifically talked about that scene, no.
Q: But he was there at the time. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And that script writer who was a Navy SEAL was there at the time you shot the scene that I just described. Right?
A: I believe so . I don't recall, but I believe he was.
Q: Thank you. The purpose of working--Excuse me.
MR. BAKER: Dan, he wants to stop at 4:30, too, John does, and I have no objection.
MR. KELLY: I've got to make some decisions here, so if we can just go to 4:30, I'd appreciate it.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's more than acceptable, Mr. Kelly.
MR. KELLY: What are you being so nice about?
MR. PETROCELLI: It's Friday. I'm not going to be in a deposition tomorrow.
Q: Was the purpose of having--of working with the Navy SEAL so that the actions that you would be performing would look more authentic?
A: I don't know. I didn't make that decision.
Q: Is that your understanding?
A: I don't know. You have to ask the people who made the movie.
Q: But you were attempting to portray the scene in an authentic manner. Correct?
A: Yeah. I don't know what "authentic" is, but in relation to this, I was doing what the director told me to do.
Q: Well, an actor is supposed to try to convince the viewers that he's doing the real thing. Right?
A: I was doing what the director told me action-wise.
Q: Were you trying to act to the best of your ability?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. It would have been simpler if you just answered.
Okay. Let me depart FROGMAN and
go to another subject, if that's all right with you, Mr. Baker.
MR. 8AKER: It is getting slaphappy here. Now you ask my permission.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to mark as the next exhibit in order Exhibit 76 and Exhibit 77. Exhibit 76 is trial Exhibit 596, and Exhibit 77 is Trial Exhibit No. 126.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibits 76 and 77 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
While we are waiting for the original 12 pictures, let me ask you a question about the Chicago hotel. Did you take with you any plastic bags or laundry bags
A: No.
Q: Did you use any of them?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any of them?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any explanation why bags were missing from that hotel room?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. You don't have to have explanations.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Dry-cleaning bags? Does that make a difference? Did you use any dry-cleaning bags?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Exhibit 76 and 77 are pictures. Can you identify what is depicted in those photographs?
A: A portion of my bedroom.
Q: And what about the other picture?
A: Some socks on a rug.
Q: Are those your socks?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you have socks like that?
A: I have black socks, yes.
Q: That look like those socks?
A: I don't know. I can't really see what these socks look like.
Q: Well, you saw a lot of these socks in court. Right?
A: No.
Q: When you were in court, there was a lot of testimony about these socks. Right?
A: Testimony, yes.
Q: And video footage as well. Right?
A: No.
Q: Are those your socks?
A: I don't know.
Q: On June 12, 1994 did you have socks like those?
A: I had black socks. but I can't tell how these socks are because they're balled up.
Q: What kind of socks? Do you have -- a brand name that you-
A: No.
Q: Do you buy your own socks? Did you at the time, June of 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: What brand socks did you buy?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you have any particular brands that you bought?
A: No.
Q: Would you be aware of the brand names of the socks that you owned in June of 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did you leave those socks on the floor when you left the room on June 12?
A: No.
Q: Are you sure?
A: Yes.
Q: How do you know?
A: Because I never leave my socks on the floor in my bedroom.
Q: Are you neat by habit?
A: By habit, yes.
Q: If you're in a hurry though, you might leave your socks on the floor. Right?
A: Not in my bedroom. no
Q: You didn't hang everything thing up in your bathroom.
A: That's a little different.
Q: And the towels.
A: That's a little different
Q: How is that different?
A: It's a bathroom.
Q: You never have left anything on your bedroom floor when you left the room?
A: Anything? Anything.
Q: Clothing?
A: No
Q: A belt?
A: No.
Q: Socks?
A: No.
Q: Never.
A: Never. That I know of.
Q: Did you wear black socks on June 12, 1994.
A: I believe so.
Q: Excuse me. You believe so. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You wore them to the recital. Right?
A: I believe so.
Q: Did you wear any other black socks that day?
A: No.
Q: One pair.
A: Yes.
Q: Do those look like the pair?
A: I can't see what these look like.
Q: Could they be the pair?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I didn't leave black socks here.
Q: Apart from the fact that they're on the floor there, do they generally look like the black socks that you wore?
A: I can't tell because I can't see what these look like.
Q: Have you ever found the pair of black socks that you wore on June 12?
MR. BAKER: That assumes they're missing.
MR. PETROCELLI: Withdrawn.
Q: Where are the pair of black socks that you wore on June 12?
A: I assume in my home.
Q: Have you looked for them?
A: I've worn black socks since I've been home, yes.
Q: Do you know if they were the exact pair that you took off that evening?
A: No.
Q: When you came home on the 13th, did you see those black socks that you had taken off the night before?
A: I didn't look for them, no.
Q: When you took the black socks off the night before or the day before or whenever you did, where did you put them?
A: Either in my shoes or back in the sock drawer.
Q: In what shoes?
Q: The shoes I was wearing.
Q: Because you might wear the socks again?
A: Yes.
Q: When you came back to your house on the 13th, did you look in those shoes?
A: No.
Q: Were the shoes there?
A: I assume so.
Q: Were the socks in the shoes?
A: If that's where I left them, I would assume so.
Q: But you don't know?
A: No.
Q: You took off your socks when you took off the clothes you wore to the recital?
A: Yes.
Q: And that's when you put on the golf clothing.
A: Yes.
Q: And you said you hung up the other clothing, the pants and the shirt. Correct?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: But you don't have a clear recollection whether you put the socks in the hamper or in the shoes. Is that right?
MR. BAKER: He never said the "hamper."
THE WITNESS: The shoes or in my drawer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
The drawer. I'm sorry.
A: Yes.
Q: Why didn't you put them in the hamper?
A: Because I didn't feel they were dirty.
Q: How long had you worn those socks?
A: Whatever time it took me to get to the recital and back.
Q: Do you sweat?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you sweat in your feet?
A: I'm sure sometimes.
Q: You had worn the socks for two to three hours. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You were going to wear them again without washing them?
A: Yes.
Q: Who does your laundry?
A: My housekeeper.
Q: Did you have a hamper?
A: Yes.
Q: Where was it located?
A: My bathroom.
Q: Did you put anything into that hamper on June 12th?
A: I'm sure I did.
Q: You took a shower in the morning, right, when you went to go to play golf?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: Did you put any of your towels in the hamper that day?
A: I don't know.
Q: Can you to the best of your memory, Mr. Simpson, describe to me the socks that you wore to the recital on June 12?
A: They were black. That's all I can recall.
Q: What kind of material were the socks made of?
A: I don't know.
Q: Were they thick socks or thin socks? Stretch socks? Can you describe them?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What kind of shoes -- Black loafers. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: What kind of socks do you usually wear with those black loafers?
A: Not real thick, but others if they're black, black socks.
Q: Black socks, not thick. Correct?
A: I would imagine not thick not in June.
Q: Sheer?
A: Could be.
Q: How high?
A: I don't know.
Q: Torn? Were there any tears in the socks, any holes in them?
A: I don't know. I don't think, I can't recall seeing any holes
Q: Now, the socks that were introduced at trial, you were there when they were introduced. Right?
A: I don't recall ever seeing them introduced at trial.
Q: The actual socks that were taken by the police, you do not remember seeing them in court?
A: I never saw them.
Q: Did you examine them?
A: Never.
Q: You never said, "Let me see if these are mine"?
A: No.
Q: Did you examine the gloves to see if they were yours?
A: Yeah, I looked at gloves.
Q: Were they yours?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Not sure?
A: I think they're too small to be mine.
Q: But you're not sure. They could be yours. Correct?
A: I didn't think so.
Q: They could be. Correct?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Are you positive?
A: I'm pretty positive.
Q: Pretty, but not a hundred percent. Correct?
A: I'm pretty positive they weren't mine.
Q: But not a hundred percent. Correct?
MR. BAKER: That's argumentative in view of the last four answers.
MR. PETROCELLI: No, it's not.
Q: Not a hundred percent. Correct? Don't tell him what to say, Mr. Leonard.
MR. LEONARD: I'm not telling him what to say. He's answered the question.
MR. PETROCELLI: No, he hasn't, Mr. Leonard, and you know he hasn't.
MR. BAKER: Hundred percent positive.
MR. PETROCELLI: He can answer that, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: Don't tell my client what he can answer, please.
MR. PETROCELLI: But it's a clear question.
Q: You are not a hundred percent positive. Correct?
A: After I tried them on, I'm a hundred percent positive they weren't mine.
Q: Before you tried them on, you were not a hundred percent positive. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And because you say they're too tight, that's what made you positive. Is that right?
A: They're too small. period.
Q: They didn't fit at all. Is that right?
A: Not close.
Q: Couldn't even get on your hands. Right?
A: Not close.
Q: Did you try them on without, what do you call them, latex gloves?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: It wasn't latex.
MR. PETROCELLI: What was it, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: I can't tell you, but it's not latex.
MR. PETROCELLI: Why can't you tell me?
MR. BAKER: Because I can't remember. I'd be happy to.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
What was it? Do you know what those gloves were?
A: No.
Q: The kind of gloves that you might use to lean things or garden with or anything like that?
A: Not me.
Q: You ever wear those kind of gloves before?
A: No.
Q: So your answer is clear, without trying on--without putting on latex or rubber gloves or plastic gloves beforehand. did you ever try those gloves on that were in court?
A: No.
Q: Is there any reason why one of the first things you didn't do when you saw those gloves was try them on?
A: I'm sorry-
Q: Why didn't you try the gloves on immediately when you first saw them to show everybody that they weren't yours?
MR. BAKER: You mean when he was a criminal defendant?
MR. PETROCELLI: When he first saw them in the courtroom.
MR. BAKER: Because the guards were around him; he can't get up; he can't move?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
DID you ask to try them on?
A: No.
Q: Okay. What about the watch cap or the hat? You remember that hat. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: DID you examine that?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you try it on?
A: No.
Q: Was it your hat?
A: I don't think so, no.
Q: Are you a hundred percent positive?
A: No.
Q: And why don't you think it's your hat?
A: Because I saw that they took one from my house, and I don't ever recall having more than one.
Q: How do you know they took one from your house?
A: I saw it in the discovery. I think you showed it to me today.
Q: The picture I showed you?
A: Yes.
Q: So you believe that you only owned one watch cap like that. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes. If I owned one, yes.
Q: But you hadn't used any watch caps in a long time. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So you're not a hundred percent sure how many watch caps you owned as of June 12. Correct?
A: No, that's wrong. I only recall buying one my whole life.
Q: Are you a hundred percent sure that you had one watch cap like the one that was in court in your home on June 12?
A: That was mine, yes. That was in my home.
Q: That was anybody's.
A: That was mine, yes.
Q: You keep saying, "That was mine." Did you have anybody else's watch cap in your house?
A: I don't know. I don't know what Nicole might have put in my house.
Q: Did you wear a watch cap on June 12,1994 at any time?
A: No.
Q: Now, why didn't you look at the socks?
A: I don't know. I just never saw them in the courtroom.
Q: Did you ask to look at them?
A: No.
Q: Mr. Simpson, where do you shop for socks? Or where did you?
A: Everywhere.
Q: Can you name some stores where you shopped for socks in June of 1994?
A: No.
Q: Excuse me while I'm looking for something. You knew--Did you know the schedule of Nicole's housekeeper?
A: No.
Q: You knew she didn't work Sunday nights, though. Right?
A: I didn't know if she was coming back Sunday nights or not.
Q: She didn't sleep there Sundays. Right?
A: I don't know.
Q: What do you mean, you didn't know she was coming back?
A: Most house keepers come back Sunday night.
Q: You're saying you didn't know what her schedule was at all?
A: That's correct.
Q: Do you know why the ski cap found-- excuse me. Do you know why the watch cap found at Bundy had hair matching yours?
MR. BLASIER: I believe that's incorrect. That mischaracterizes-
THE WITNESS: Yes, I know that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Do you know why the watch cap had Bundy hair consistent with yours7
A: Some hairs consistent with mine.
Q: Yeah.
A: No,
Q: Do you have any explanation for that?
A: Maybe because I'm black.
Q: Is that the only explanation you know of?
A: Yes.
Q: Just because you're a black person?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. He doesn't have to have any explanation for that.
MR. PETROCELLI: I didn't say he had to. I'm only asking him if he has any explanation.
MR. BAKER: His explanation in terms of that evidence will come from his attorneys, as you are well aware.
MR. PETROCELLI: It may not. He may have information that completely exonerates him.
Q: Do you know why hair consistent with your hair was found on Ron Goldman's shirt?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any explanation for that?
A: I'm no expert on similarities of hairs and shirts.
Q: Excuse me?
A: I'm no expert on similarities of hairs or shirts, so-
Q: So the answer is you don't know why that is. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know why that the glove found at Rockingham had hair consistent with Ron Goldman's hair?
A: No.
Q: Do you know why the glove at Rockingham had hair consistent with Nicole's hair?
MR. KELLY: I'm sorry. The glove?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Do you know why the glove at Rockingham had hair consistent with Nicole's hair?
MR. BAKER: I am not sure there is any foundation for that question, and so I am going to instruct him not to answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
You are saying there was no hair matching Nicole's hair found on the Rockingham glove?
A: I'm saying I am not aware that that was so, and if it was so, I would have no-
Q: Explanation?
A: I would have no knowledge of- I have no knowledge. I'm no expert on hair, but...
Q: Do you know why the glove found at Rockingham had fibers matching Ron Goldman's shirt?
A: I have no -- no, I don't have knowledge of any of this that you're saying.
Q: Do you know why the glove found at Rockingham had fibers matching the carpet in your Bronco?
A: I have no knowledge of any of this.
Q: I have a few more to go through. Do you know why the glove at Rockingham had blood consistent with a mixture of yours, Ron Goldman's and Nicole's?
A: I have no knowledge of this.
Q: Do you know why the blood on the panel of the Bronco matched your blood?
A: No.
Q: Do you know why the blood on the console of the Bronco matched your blood?
A: No.
Q: Do you know why the blood on the panel of the Bronco was consistent with a mixture of Ron Goldman's and your blood?
A: No.
Q: Do you know why the blood on the console of the Bronco is consistent with a mixture of Ron Goldman's and Nicole's blood?
A: No.
Q: Do you know why the blood in the Bronco matched Nicole's blood?
A: No.
Q: Do you know why the blood found on the Rockingham driveway matched your blood?
A: No.
Q: Do you know why the blood in the foyer in your house matched your blood?
A: No.
Q: Do you know why the blood on the socks found in your bedroom matched your blood?
A: No.
Q: And do you know why the blood on the socks in your bedroom matched Nicole's blood?
A: No.
Q: Do you know why the blood at Bundy matched your blood?
A: No.
Q: Do you know why the shoes found at Bundy matched Bruno Magli shoes?
A: No.
Q: You have no knowledge about any of these things?
A: Other than what I heard in court, no.
Q: Did you have a rug in your foyer?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: What color was the rug?
A: It's a Persian rug.
Q: Was it located on the foyer at a spot where blood was found?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: It was located away from the blood?
A: I believe so.
Q: Was the rug there when you came home?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Is the rug missing?
A: No. It's there.
Q: Do you have any explanation for how this evidence got where it was found?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. He doesn't have to have an explanation.
MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer that?
MR. BAKER: No.
MR. PETROCELLI: You understand that I am not suggesting that he has to have one. I am just asking if he has one.
MR. BAKER: Well, all I can tell you is --I am obviously not going to tell you how to ask questions, but I am not going to let him answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Apart from anything you learned from your lawyers, do you have an explanation for how any of this evidence got where it was?
MR. BAKER: I think you've gone through it all, and he doesn't have any knowledge about that, and we don't-- he will not be in our expert designation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Before you ever spoke to a lawyer, after you left Los Angeles, did you have any knowledge or information as to how any of that evidence was found where it was?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: If in fact it was found where they say it was found.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Do you have any facts or information to suggest how that evidence got where it was found?
A: Other than what I learned in court?
Q: When you say 'learned in court,' you mean what your lawyers argued in court?
A: Yes.
Q: Other than what you learned in court.
A: No.
Q: Have you ever found out what those noises were that Kato Kaelin heard?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever ask him?
A: Ask him what.
Q: What the noises were.
A: He didn't know.
Q: When did you ask him?
A: When he was looking. He was saying, "I heard noises,' he thought it was an earthquake, and I may have asked him the next day when I got home .
Q: When you got home, when did you first see Kaelin?
A: That afternoon.
Q: Where?
A: At my house.
Q: In the main residence?
A: Yes.
Q: How did he get there?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you invite him in?
A: He came in.
Q: Uninvited?
A: I think everybody was invited that day.
Q: That's when you had your family there and a couple of your close friends. Right?
A: People were coming and going.
Q: Lots of people?
A: Yes.
Q: More than 20 or 30?
A: I would imagine so, but I'm not sure.
Q: And what did you talk to Kato about? You said you talked about the noises. Tell me about that conversation.
MR. BAKER: He said he may have.
THE WITNESS: I believe I asked him what was going on.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
What does that mean?
A: No one had told me anything. I knew he had--by this time had spent time with the police, and maybe he knew something.
Q: What did he say?
A: He didn't know anything.
Q: Nothing?
A: Nothing.
Q: Did he tell you what the police asked him?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask him?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask him what happened during the evening after you left?
A: I asked him, did he find anything.
Q: What did he say?
A: I believe he said no. I believe he said he didn't look.
Q: After you left, he told you that--
A: I believe he said he didn't look.
Q: He did not look.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you and he talk about anything else?
A: No.
Q: Was that the end of your conversation with Kaelin on the 13th?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Did you talk about the fact that the two of you were together the night before for part of the time?
A: I don't believe so, but we might have.
Q: When you say you "might have," do you have a recollection that you discussed having gone to McDonald's together?
A: No.
Q: You did not discuss that?
A: I don't have a recollection of us discussing that.
Q: Did you say to Kato, "You're my alibi. Right?"
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Was he your alibi?
A: I didn't know I needed an alibi.
Q: Did you say that to him?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you discuss anything concerning your alibi with Kato Kaelin?
A: I didn't believe I needed an alibi.
MR. BAKER: Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Did you say to Kato, "You were with me. Right, Kato?"
A: I don't think so. He was obviously with me when we went to get a burger, but I don't believe that we discussed that.
Q: Did you say to Kaelin, "You saw me go in the house, didn't you, or words to that effect?
A: I don't recall saying that, no.
Q: Did you hear him testify to that?
A: No.
Q: Is Kaelin -- was Kaolin's testimony truthful?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What you heard, and you were in a position to gauge, was it true?
MR. BAKER: He is not going to testify in this trial whether he's truthful or untruthful. He is going to testify what he observed and what he witnessed and what he said.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
What Kaelin said about you, was that the truthful?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. We are not--he is not going to be interrogated about what he thinks somebody else said is truthful or untruthful.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Did Kato say anything about you that to your knowledge was false?
MR. BAKER: Again, the same objection--
MR. BREWER: I'm not asking for his assessment of his credibility. I am asking for particular information.
MR. BAKER: Anyway, it seems like exactly the same thing to me.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, it's a little-it's a different question.
Q: Did Kato Kaelin say anything on the stand, Mr. Simpson, that you knew to be false?
MR. BAKER: Now, the -- he testified for days on the stand, and that is too broad. You can ask him questions, I suppose, about what Mr. Kaelin says, and if he believes it's true or false based upon his own empirical knowledge, I'll obviously allow that, but I am not going to allow you a broad blanket, anything in however many days he was on the stand.
MR. PETROCELLI: You are not going to let him answer that question?
MR. BAKER: No.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
Q: Do you remember anything that Kato Kaelin said that right now stands out in your mind as false?
MR. BAKER: If you have any recollection of what he testified to in all those days.
THE WITNESS: I don't really have a clear recollection of all the things that he testified to and anything really specific, so I can't speak on anything just really specific, no.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
On the day of the 13th when Kaelin is at your house, did you and he go off into your kitchen?
A: We may have.
Q: And what did you and he discuss in your kitchen?
A: I don't think we walked into the --if we walked into the kitchen, it wasn't to discuss anything specific, I don't think.
Q: But when you did get into the kitchen, what did you and he discuss?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You have no recollection?
A: No.
Q: And when Kaelin came into your house, were you glued to the TV set?
MR. BAKER: When are we talking about?
MR. PETROCELLI: On the 13th, Mr. Baker.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what that means.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
In other words, were you watching television, three televisions?
A: I was sitting with my mom and a bunch of people. The TVs were on. I don't know if I was dozing or watching at that time.
Q: And what you were watching was coverage m about your wife's murder. Right?
A: We were trying to find information when we were looking at TV, yes.
Q: And at some point you asked Kaelin to go into the kitchen for a minute. Right?
A: I don't recall that, no.
Q: But the two of you went into the kitchen area. Correct?
A: We may have.
Q: THE two of you were alone. Correct?
A: I don't recall that, no.
Q: And he hopped up on the sink. Correct?
A: I don't recall that, no.
Q: You leaned against the sink. Right?
A: I don't recall that, no.
Q: And then you said to him, "You saw me go in the house," didn't you?
A: I don't recall that.
Q: "We went to McDonald's, and then you saw me go into the house." Right?
A: I don't recall that.
Q: Do you deny those conversations?
A: I don't believe I had those conversations. I just don't recall having them.
Q: Are you positive that those--that that conversation did not occur?
A: I don't recall talking to him in the kitchen about that, no.
Q: But you're not sure.
A: I don't recall doing it, no.
Q: Are you sure?
A: I'm sure I don't recall doing it.
Q: If Kaelin says it happened, you wouldn't have any reason to doubt him. Correct?
A: I don't know.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I don't recall doing it.
Q: The day-- Withdrawn. On June 11 you spent some time watching television with Kato, didn't you?
A: I don't know. He may have came in while I was watching TV.
Q: And you were watching THE WORLD ACCORDING TO GARP. Right?
A: I may have.
Q: With Robin Williams. Right?
A: I may have.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, why don't you change it.
MR. KELLY: We will stop at-
MR. PETROCELLI: 4:30. Excuse me?
MR. BAKER: Why don't we stop it?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI: Stop what?
MR. BAKER: The depo.
MR. KELLY: The depo for the day.
MR. PETROCELLI: Oh, I was going to ask a couple more questions about GARP.
MR. BAKER: Save GARP.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
MR. KELLY: I've got-
MR. PETROCELLI: I'll save GARP.
MR. KELLY: I can't-
MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to leave you in suspense about the GARP questions. Okay?
MR. KELLY: That okay, Dan?
MR. PETROCELLI: No, it's okay with me. Half hour doesn't-
MR. BAKER: Michael. I know you don't agree with-
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume V. The number of videotapes used was two. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 4:03.
MR. PETROCELLI: On the stenographic record, I would like to say that we are not concluded with Mr. Simpson's deposition, and the lawyers are going to try to get together to agree on a date for the resumption of the deposition.
MR. BAKER: Agreed. And would you join us here at 4:00 o'clock on Wednesday next, the 31st?
MR. BREWER: No.
MR. BAKER: You won't.
MR. BREWER: The deposition is day to day.
MR. BAKER: Well, as I suggested to you, and let's keep this on the record, Mr. Simpson is not going to be here, I'm not going to be here, Mr. Leonard's not going to be here, nor is Mr. Blasier going to be here, so you can take whatever solace you want in that. I'm willing to work out a new date, and I'm willing to do it on the 31st.
MR. PETROCELLI: Just so the record is clear, I am prepared to continue and complete my examination on Monday. Tuesday of next week I think I would be finished. If everyone can get their schedules together, that's acceptable to me.
MR. BREWER: And I've already indicated to Mr. Baker that I anticipate no more than a day of examination on my part, and I can 't speak for Mr. Kelly.
MR. KELLY: You would be ready to go on the 31st?
MR. BREWER: Yes.
MR. KELLY: You are not going to be here Monday and Tuesday. Is that what you're saying?
MR. BAKER: That's what I just said, and Mr. Petrocelli already agreed that we could put it over and we would sit down and talk and do a schedule on the 4th--or the 31st, rather, and that we would complete Mr. Simpson's deposition after we had--you had the ability to view the videotape and you had the financial documents, and so I am trying to be reasonable. Mr. Brewer, you can be unreasonable and obviously tell the press anything you like.
MR. BREWER: First of all, we don't need those comments on the record, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: Well, I wanted to put them on the record.
MR. BREWER: And I would indicate that I've set aside and I believe all the other lawyers have set aside the appropriate time within which to complete the deposition. It was scheduled to go day to day until completed.
You objected to the deposition going beyond five days. It seems to me that it's incumbent upon you to go into court to get an order to stop the deposition, and you haven't done that.
And the fact is that I have other matters and other cases that I have to attend to, and it took us a month to get this deposition scheduled, so I'm concerned about those issues.
Now, maybe you have time on your calendar. l personally don't. I have other matters I have to attend to, and I was hopeful to get the deposition completed by Wednesday of next week at the latest. I don't think that's an unreasonable request.
MR. BAKER: As I said from November 15th on, five days, and I have commitments, and I've told Mr. Petrocelli I have commitments that I have to keep. So I think there's a reasonable way to work it out. If you don't want to attempt to do that, that's fine. I mean, we'll go into court and we'll do whatever is necessary, and we will go from there and--
MR. BREWER: We have stated our positions.
MR. BAKER: You have indeed.
MR. KELLY: My position is, I'm out here. I'm ready to continue Monday morning with the deposition. It's my understanding that this court order was day to day also. I'm not going to waste my client's money, my weekend, everything else, staying here if it's obviously not going to go Monday. I'm putting my objection on the record. What I do want to make clear. and I discussed this with you before, Mr. Baker, is that all the depositions that have been noticed for the Browns and Lou Brown and the like will be put off beyond any completion of this deposition if we are going to work in the spirit of cooperation, because I want to get this done first before we move on to that matter.
Do you have any problem with that?
MR. BAKER: Well, I have tried to cooperate with everybody relative to their documents and relative to everything else.
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
MR. BAKER: Now, if it's a one-way street, the answer is clearly no. If you guys want to go into court and fight it out, all the deposition notices that I have out will stay as the date they are, and we will then go and we will fight for every depo and every hour and every minute, and that's the way we'll do it.
MR. KELLY: Right. I think I said just the opposite. If you indicate to me that you will give me your earlier indicated level of cooperation on my interrogatories and rescheduling the Brown depositions. I will work with you on completing this deposition also.
MR. BAKER: I don't have a problem. I think we ought to cooperate and save our clients money. That's what I think we ought to do, but--because cooperation saves clients an awful lot of money rather than running into court.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's not something we've ever done.
MR. BAKER: But I think after a week we might have a way to do it through the duration of this case. So if we do, fine. If we don't, we both know how to do it the hard way.
MR. PETROCELLI: Good afternoon. Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: Good afternoon. Have a nice weekend.
(ENDING TIME 4:04 P.M.) I DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT SUBSCRIBED AT CALIFORNIA, THIS ____DAY OF ___, 19___. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON