SHARON RUFO,
Plaintiff
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al.
Defendant
FREDRIC GOLDMAN,
Plaintiff
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al,
Defendant
LOUIS H. BROWN,
Plaintiff,
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON
Defendant
Continued videotaped deposition of JAMES ORENTHAL SIMPSON, taken on behalf of the Plaintiff, at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard, 10th Floor, Los Angeles, California, commencing at 9:53 a m, on Wednesday, January 24, 1998, before David S. Coleman, CSR # 4613, pursuant to Court Order.
APPEARANCES
FOR THE PLAlNTIFFS FREDRIC GOLDMAN, ETAL
MITCHELL, SILBERBERG & KNUPP
BY DANIEL M PETROCELLI, Esq
PETER B. GELBLUM, ESQ
EDWARD M. MEDVENE, ESQ
ARTHUR GROMAN, ESQ
1377 West Olympic Boulevard
Sixth Floor
Los Angeles, California 90084-1683
FOR THE PLAlNTIFF ESTATE OF BROWN
JOHN QUINLAN KELLY, Esq
330 Madison Avenue
New York, New York 10017-5090
(212) 682-1700
FOR THE PLAINTIFF SHARON RUFO
HORNBERGER & CRISWELL
BY MICHAEL A. BREWER, ESQ
444 South Flower Street
Thirty-First Floor
Los Angeles, California 90071
FOR THE DEFENDANT ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON
BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER
BY ROBERT C. BAKER, ESQ
2850 Ocean Park Boulevard
Suite 300
Santa Monica, California 90405-2936
-and-
BAILEY, FISHMAN & LEONARD
BY DANIEL LEONARD, ESQ
66 Long Wharf
Boston, Massachusetts 02110
(617) 723-1980
-and-
ROBERT D BLASIER, ESQ
6355 Riverside Boulevard
Suite 2-F
Sacramento, Caiifornia 95831
(916) 427-1800
ALSO PRESENT FREDRIC GOLDMAN
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Here begins videotape No. 1 in the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume III, in the consolidated cases of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs. Orenthal James Simpson in the Superior Court, State of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is SC031947.
Today's date is Wednesday January 24,1996. The time is approximately 9:53. This deposition is being taken at 1377 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California, and was made at the request of plaintiff, of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp.
The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed by Coleman, Haas, Martin & Schwab of Los Angeles, California.
Would counsel please identify yourselves and state whom you represent.
MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for Fredric Goldman.
MR. MEDVENE: Edward Medvene for Fredric Goldman.
MR.GELBLUM: Peter Gelblum for Fredric Goldrnan.
MR. BREWER: Michael Brewer, Sharon Rufo.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly for Brown.
MR. BLASIER: Robert Blasier for Mr. Simpson.
MR. LEONARD: Daniel Leonard for Mr. Simpson.
MR. BAKER: Bob Baker for Simpson.
MR. GROMAN: Arthur Groman for Goldman.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
MR.BAKER: You know, I want him to correct something that I think he misused Bronco and Bentley yesterday. So OJ., you want to--
THE WITNESS: I may have inadvertently, as we were going through the B's and B's, Bronco and Bentley, once or twice possibly -- I don't recall, but my lawyers tell me that maybe once or twice I might have said "Bronco" when I meant Bentley and "Bentley" when I meant Bronco.
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR.PETROCELLI:
Q: Can you remember when that occurred?
A: No,I can't.
Q: What did your lawyers tell you about when you may have misused Bronco and Bentley?
MR.BAKER: He is not going to tell you what we told him, Mr. Petrocelli.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, based on what they said to you, can you tell us where you think you may have misused Bronco and Bentley, without going into your conversation with them?
MR. BAKER: That's the same thing. That's by another means trying to break into the attorney-client privilege, and I am not going to allow him to do that. But you can ask him --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Since you've opened it up, I need to follow up on this to make sure we have a complete understanding of your testimony, and I don't want to have to go through --
MR. BAKER: I will tell you where I thought he misspoke, and that was where he was talking about the cell phone conversation with Barbieri, and he said "Bentley" once and "Bronco" once and "Bentley" another time.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: As I understood your testimony yesterday, you made a cell phone call
to Paula Barbieri when you got out of the garage at or near the location of the Bentley, and when you completed that call, you either put the cell phone in your pocket or near the trunk of the Bentley. Is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q:: Do you have a clearer understanding as to what you did with that cell phone when you completed the call?
A: Obviously I took it with me, so since I was swinging the club, I assume it was in my pocket.
Q: Did you do any preparation for today's session, Mr. Simpson?
A: Absolutely none.
Q: Read anything?
A: Absolutely nothing.
Q: Did you watch television and pick up any pointers?
MR. BAKER: You don't have to answer that. It's a good question, but he is not going to answer it.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
Q: I would like to ask you a few questions about the alarm system at your house in June of 1994.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Could you tell us whether you had an alarm system.?
A: Yes.
Q: And did the alarm system work with respect to the Ashford and Rockingham gates?
A: No.
Q: It worked with respect to the exterior doors of the residence. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: It was a Westec system.
A: Yes.
Q: Is this a system where you could activate or deactivate the alarm through a remote location or device, such as a telephone?
A: No.
Q: The only -- What were the ways in which you could activate the alarm at the house in June of 1994?
A: There's a pad in my bedroom. There's a pad in my upstairs hall. There's a pad inside and outside the front door. There's a pad inside and outside the laundry door.
Q: Inside and outside the laundry door?
A: Yeah.
Q: Is the outside of the laundry door the exterior of the property?
A: No. It's in the garage.
Q: So when you go into the garage from the driveway, if you were to enter the garage and go out the door that leads into the residence, you go right into the laundry room.
A: Yes.
Q: And in the garage on the outside of that laundry room door is a pad?
A: That's correct.
Q: And on the inside is a pad?
A: That's correct.
Q: Now, when you enter the residence, and let's assume the alarm is on, are you required to deactivate the alarm from the outside pad?
A: Yes.
Q: And if you deactivate the alarm from the outside pad and then you open the door and enter, is the alarm off now?
A: Yes.
Q: If you were not to deactivate the alarm from the outside pad but enter the residence anyway, could you then deactivate it from an inside pad?
A: Yes.
Q: And is there a delay of a certain interval of time before the alarm will start ringing?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: So if you fail to punch in the code on the pad and you open the door, what happens?
A: The alarm goes off.
Q: And what does that mean? Bells ring? Whistles sound?
A: An alarm goes off.
Q: Does it ring over to the Westec Security place as well?
A: Yes.
Q: And the police department?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Okay. Who -- By the way, the way you just described the system, that's how it functioned in June of 1994. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: It hasn't changed, has it?
A: That's--yeah. Yes.
Q: Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Did you have the code in June of 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: What was it, like a four-digit code?
A: Yes.
Q: And who else had that code to your knowledge?
A: My family, my immediate family, Arnelle and Jason; my house keeper--
Q: Names.
A: Well, Gigi. Michelle possibly. Nicole. A.C. And I don't know after that.
Q: Were there doors that one could -- Let's assume the alarm was on. Were there doors that people could go in and out of the house through that would not activate the alarm?
A: Yes.
Q: Which doors were those?
A: The ones that came from the guest house into the house, and -- I don't know -- I have some window doors. I don't know if they're -- if they were on the alarm at the time, and I don't think any of the windows were on the alarm at that time.
Q: How many guest houses were on the property? One?
A: Three.
Q: Now, do each of those guest houses have a door that goes into the
main residence?
A: No.Just one.
Q: Just one. And who was in that guest house at the time?
A: Kato.
Q: Did Kato also have a door that went out to the exterior of the property?
A: Yes.
Q: And was that door on the alarm?
A: To the exterior of the property, no.
Q: So Kato could come into his guest house by getting into this exterior door that went directly into his guest house; even if the alarm was on, it would not go off. Correct?
A: It depends. If-- there was an alarm there, too. I missed that one. It depends if it was engaged or not.
Q: Kato's exterior door had an alarm on it?
A: Yeah.
Q: Was there a keypad in - and outside of his door?
A: Yeah. No. Just outside of his door.
Q: So when Kato - if the alarm were on and Kato were coming home -- let's say you were out of town -- he would have to punch the code in order to get in. Right?
A: Well, he didn't know the code, but if he had known the code, he would have had to do that.
Q: Is this the same--is it on the same code as the rest of the house?
A: Yes.
Q: So when you were out of town and Kaelin was staying there, the alarm was never on?
A: He didn't have access to my house. I don't know if the alarm was on, because the housekeeper was there, but he didn't have unlimited access into my home.
Q: So he would go into the guest house. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And his normal routine was to enter through this exterior door?
A: Yes.
Q: And based on your ground rules with him, was he permitted to go into the interior of the house from his guest house?
A: Unless somebody invited him in.
Q: What if no one invited him?
A: He wasn't supposed to go in. And the door was always locked. There's two doors, actually, and both of them were always locked.
Q: Did he have the key to unlock those doors?
A: No.
Q: You said yesterday there was a single key that keyed all the doors on the property.
A: No. I had a single key to all the doors on the property.
Q:: But that key also worked on Kaelin's lock, too?
A: Yes.
Q: And he had a key. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So he could have used that key to access any lock on the property. Right?
A: That's incorrect.
Q: Why is that incorrect?
A: Because he couldn't.
Q; Is it because he didn't have permission?
A: No.
Q: I'm confused. I'm not understanding your testimony. If his lock was keyed the same as all the other locks and he had a key --
A: I didn't say that. You said that.
Q: Okay. So his lock was keyed differently. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes.
Q: The exterior door.
A: Yes.
Q: And the interior doors he did not have the key to. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And he couldn't open those doors from the inside of his room to get into the residence. Is that right?
A: Correct.
Q: They could be locked on the other side of the door. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. So is his exterior door the only door that was keyed differently from the rest of the property?
A: No.
Q: What other doors?
A: Most of them.
Q: Most of the other doors?
A: Yeah, in my house.
Q: Were keyed differently?
A: Yeah, different keys for different things.
Q: Okay.Then I must have misunderstood your testimony yesterday because I thought you told me that there was a single --
MR. BAKER: God, he's got a master key. Come on. Let's get it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that what it is, a master key?
A: That's correct.
MR. PETROCELLI: See, I don't have a master key, but that's a good idea, Mr. Baker. I have like seven keys for my house.
Q: So you have a master key, and everyone --there are a bunch of different keys.
A: Yes.
Q: Who has the master key?
A: Me and the housekeeper.
Q: And Arnelle?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole have one?
A: She wasn't supposed to have one.
Q: Okay. So bottom line here is Kaelin could only get into his room and no other room.
A: Correct.
Q: Now, let me go back again. If the alarm was on in the rest of the house unbeknownst to Kaelin and Kaelin entered his room through the key -- through the exterior door, would the alarm go off?
A: If the alarm was on, yes.
Q: Was it your practice when you were out of town to have the alarm set?
A: It was my practice when I was out of town to have someone at my house.
Q: If you were to -- Your housekeeper, did she work weekends?
A: No, not generally.
Q: So if you were going to be out of town on weekends, would the alarm be set?
A: Should be, yes.
Q: And how would Kaelin deal with the setting of the alarm if he's going in and out of the house on weekends?
A: As I told you before, he wasnÕt supposed to be going in and out of
the house on weekends.
Q: What if he went in and out of his guest room, and the alarm were activated on the property, and nobody else was home, like your housekeeper, would the alarm be going on and off when Kaelin's entering his guest room?
A: No.
Q: Why is that?
A: Because, as I told you, his exterior door to his guest room is not on the alarm.
Q: Just the interior door?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, you didn't have anybody at home -- excuse me. There were no housekeepers on duty on Saturday and Sunday, June 11 and June 12. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And the housekeeper was coming the next morning, on Monday?
A: I would assume so, yes.
Q: And she had the code. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Whenever you leave town and the housekeeper isn't home, do you -- and no one else is home, do you always set the alarm?
A: I try to. If I'm thinking about it, I definitely do, yes.
Q: And you set the alarm after you close the front door --
A: Not always.
Q: from the outdoor keypad?
A: Not always. Sometimes as I'm going out the front door.
Q: Can you set the alarm from the inside of the house and then go to the front door, open it and leave without the alarm going off?
A: Correct.
Q: Is there a delay from the moment you set it until it becomes activated?
A: Yes, there is.
Q: How long is that delay?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you set the alarm on the evening of June 12th before you went into the limousine?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: Because Kato was looking for a flashlight, or I thought he would continue to look for a flashlight.
Q: And you left him in the residence, in other words.
A: He was at the front door. When I walked out he was behind me, and I got in the limo and I said, "Well, look and see if you can find a flashlight."
Q: Now, your understanding was that Kaelin when he was finished would close the front door and go back to his room. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Through the outside of the property. Right?
A: Well, yes. Or through the inside -- well, yes, through the outside, because he couldn't lock the back door, yes.
Q: Did you ask Kaelin to set the alarm for you?
A: No. I think I told him I would call and give him the code. At one point we were talking about the code, but I had to leave, and I called him and gave him the code.
Q: From where did you call him?
A: I think the airport.
Q: From a pay phone?
A: Yes.
Q: At the gate?
A: Yes.
Q: At American Airlines?
A: Yes.
Q: What gate number? Do you remember?
A: No.
Q: Is that the first time you had ever given Kato Kaelin the code to your
alarm?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Is that the first time you had asked Kato Kaelin to set the alarm for you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Kato say to you that he would do as you requested?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you know whether he did?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you that he wasn't comfortable receiving the code or doing
the alarm?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you that he didn't have confidence that he could properly activate the alarm?
A: No.
Q: Did you explain to him how to do it?
A: Yes.
Q: What did it involve? Punching in some numbers?
A: Yes.
Q: And that's all. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: If the alarm is on and you're inside the home, does the alarm go off? Is there any motion detector?
A: There is one, yes.
Q: Where is that located?
A: I would prefer not to say.
Q: Where was it located in June of 1994?
A: I would prefer not to say.
Q: Could you please tell us?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: I will give you that information, and he can write it on a piece of paper. Is that fair enough for you?
MR. PETROCELLI: For now. yes.
MR. BAKER: Okay. Just write down where it is.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Just so I am clear, you have only one location in the whole residence that's --
A: That's correct.
Q: subject to a motion detector, and when you activate the alarm, the motion detector goes on. Right?
A: Pardon me?
Q: When you set the alarm, that also activates the motion detector. Correct?
A: No.
Q: Do you have to also set the motion detector?
A: Yes.
Q: And how -- Can you do that from any of the keypads?
A: No.
Q: How do you set the motion detector?
A: By a pad that's upstairs, in my upstairs hall.
Q: You did give me a description of that pad before when you said you had one in your bedroom and one upstairs. Is that the upstairs one?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it a second pad next to the other pad for the doors?
A: Yes.
Q: And that's the only pad that activates a motion detector. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know how large of an area that motion detector covers?
A: A relatively large area, yes.
Q: Would it cover the kitchen?
A: I m not going to talk about that. I already had to spend a fortune changing my alarms, by talking about my alarm system in court.
Q: Have you changed it since the court case?
A: Yes. Made it better.
Q: Well, I am only interested in what it was at the time.
A: Well, some things are in the same place.
MR. KELLY: Could you send it around, so....
MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you have Mr. Kaelin -- Withdrawn. Did you activate the motion detector before you left the premises?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask Mr. Kaelin to do so?
A: No.
Q: You only told him to do the doors. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, why on this one occasion for the first time ever did you ask Kato Kaelin to activate the alarm?
A: Because on this one occasion for the first time ever Kato was, as far as I know, present when I was leaving and concerned about something around the house. Since he was there, I told him to look for a flashlight, investigate whatever he was investigating and put my alarm on.
Q: Were you concerned about what Kato Kaelin was describing to you?
A: Not really, but he seemed to be concerned.
Q: You were not concerned?
A: Not really, but he seemed to be concerned.
Q: Why were you not concerned?
A: Because I had to go. I was concerned about making my flight.
Q: He told you that there were some noises and maybe he felt an earthquake. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And he wanted a flashlight to go investigate who might be in the property. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you were not concerned that there might be somebody there?
A: Well, my alarm goes off many times. I'm a person who gets up in the middle of the night every night and walk around my house. I hear noises all the time. If he was concerned, he could look and put on my alarm when he left.
Q: Did he describe the noises to you?
A: As I told you before, no.
Q: Well, you saw Kaelin for the first time when you came downstairs after you completed getting dressed, brought your Louis Vuitton bag and went out to the front entryway.
MR. BAKER: Wait a minute. We've been through that sequence about 10 times.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not going to go through that sequence. I am trying to establish his conversations with Kaelin --
MR. BAKER: Ask him.
MR.PETROCELLI: I want to make sure, though, in point of time that we are talking about the same time.
Q: Is that correct, that you first spoke to Kaelin at that point in time?
A: No, that's not correct.
Q: When did you first speak to Kaelin?
A: I believe it was at 2:00 o'clock that day.
Q: I am sorry.I am only talking about the evening of June 12th.
MR. BAKER: After they get back from McDonald's?
MR. PETROCELLI: Exactly.
Q: Now, my question is: After you got back from McDonald's, you saw Kaelin for the first time when you came down finally from your bedroom with your bags packed, dropped them in the entryway. Then you saw Kaelin. Correct?
A: I saw him, yes. An hour or so -- I'd saw him when we had come back from McDonald's, and then the next time I saw him I was about to leave, about a hour later or so.
Q: I didn't understand what you just said. An hour or so after you came back from McDonald's you saw him
A: Yeah, whatever -- yeah, when I was about to leave.
Q: The time that I just described to you is about an hour or so after you came back from McDonald's? Is that what you're saying?
A: Roughly, yes.
Q: So you left around 11:00 o'clock, so you are saying you came back from McDonald's around 10:00 o'clock?
A: I didn't say anything. We got back from McDonald's at whatever time we got back from McDonald's, and an hour or so after that I was leaving and I saw Kato.
Q: But you were leaving around 11:00 o'clock p.m. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: So you came back from McDonald's around 10:00 o'clock p.m. Correct?
A: Maybe a little earlier than 10:00 o'clock p.m.
Q: How early?
A: 1 wasn't keeping time at the time. I was not paying attention to the time at the time to that extent. All I know, I told Kato that I'd be leaving and the limo would be here in about an hour. I do recall us having a conversation when we got back from McDonald's. So an hour or so after Kato was there, and I saw him when I was trying to leave.
Q: And I am trying to fix precisely the point in time that you saw him an hour or so after you came back from McDonald's, and my question --
A: I thought we fixed that yesterday.
Q: My question to you is: You saw him for the first time an hour or so after McDonald's when you came down ready to leave.
A: Correct.
Q: Now, you were in the entryway, and where was Kaelin?
MR. BAKER: We have been through this.
MR. PETROCELLI: I have not --
MR. BAKER: Yes, you have. You went through it yesterday --
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Baker --
MR. BAKER: Yes,you did.You talked about it, and he told you he was over in the garage, and you went through it in excruciating detail.
MR. PETROCELLI: No, I did not.
MR. BAKER: Yes, you did, and we are not going to go through it again.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to have to ask him some questions about his conversations with Kaelin.
MR.BAKER: You have asked him about every conversation he had with Kaelin after--when he came down out of his house that night. We are not going to go through it again.
MR.PETROCELLI: You know, you are just going to prolong this; that's all.
MR. BAKER: Well, you are not going to try to trip him up by asking him the same question 15 times. That's not appropriate conduct at this deposition.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am trying to get the truth. I am not trying to trip him up. If he is telling the truth, he won't be tripped up.
MR. BAKER: I don't need a lecture from you about what the truth is or anything else.
MR. PETROCELLI: l don't need to listen to pejorative descriptions of why I'm doing..
MR. BAKER: Pull it up. Let's see --
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not interested in pulling it up.
MR. BAKER: I don't care what you're interested in . Pull it up. He is not going to answer another question until we pull it up.
MR. PETROCELLI: You can pull it up. I am going attach the next exhibit in order. Okay?
MR. BAKER: Pull it up. Let's see what he asked about yesterday.
MR. PETROCELLI: I intend to pursue conversations with Kaelin right now. Can you attach this as Exhibit 27 and this is Exhibit 28. Okay?
(Plaintiffs' Exhibits 27 and 28 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. You have before you Exhibit 27, Mr. Simpson?
A: Correct.
Q: And Exhibit 28. You can look at them together.These are sketches of the Rockingham property. Do you see that?
A: Right.
Q: When you came downstairs for the last time to leave and you saw Kaelin for the first time, I want you to point out on either one of these, whichever one you think is better, where Kaelin was and where you were.
A: I was here (Indicating), outside of what you call an entry. I call it a foyer. But in this area here, which I will call the entry. And he was somewhere in this area here (Indicating).
Q: Okay. I am going to put an "OJS" where you were. Correct?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And Kato Kaelin was where?
A: Somewhere over here (Indicating). He was moving around, but somewhere over there.
Q: Right around there?
A: Yeah, in that area.
Q: Okay. I'll put a "K" there. And that's --
A: In front of the -- he was in the front of the limo, which was straddling this (Indicating). He was in the front portion of the limo, but he was moving around.
Q: Where was the limo?
A: Straddling right where it says there.
Q: Right here (Indicating)?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And were there any other cars parked there?
A: Yeah. My Bentley was right there (Indicating).
Q: Right in this little area here?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. I will put "Bentley." You see that?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And can you spot the Bronco for us?
A: It would be out here (Indicating).
Q: Right here? Just north of the --
A: Yeah.
Q: -- gate?
A: North of the gate at some point, yeah.
Q: Were there any other -- You had said yesterday that you took a walk from Rockingham through the Ashford gate with the dog. Were there any other cars parked on Rockingham or Ashford when you took that walk?
A: Not that I noticed.
Q: Okay.
A: I'm sure Kato's car must have been there, but I didn't notice it.
Q: You didn't see it.
A: No.
Q: What kind of car did he have?
A: I don't know. Maybe it was a Datsun or something like that. I don't know.
Q: Now, where was Mr. Park, by the way, when you first spotted Kaelin?
A: I don't know. Somewhere around the limo.
Q: Out of the car?
A: Yes.
MR.PETROCELLI: Let the record reflect, though, we have made notations on I guess Exhibit 28. Correct?
A: Pardon me?
Q: This is Exhibit 28 on which we have made these notations.
A: Yes.
MR.BAKER: It's definitely not to scale.
MR.PETROCELLI: I don't represent that this is to scale.
Q: Now, when you first spotted Kaelin and you guys were talking, did he then at some point with you go into the kitchen?
A: Later on, yes.
Q: When you say "later on," was that after you went out to, as you testified yesterday, the Bronco?
A: Correct.
Q: And when you went out to the Bronco to get I think you said the cell phone case and other -- and the windbreaker, when you were doing that, where was Kaelin? Do you know?
A: No, I didn't see him, but I assume he was --I can hear him at one point -- he was talking to me as I went out.
Q: Did he go out with you?
A: No. And I don't know if he was talking to the limo --I just heard him talking as I went out, but I really wasn't focusing on what he was saying, and... So he was behind me talking.
Q: And then when you came back--
MR.BREWER: Would you describe --the witness made a circular motion with his finger --
MR.BAKER: We are on videotape.
MR.BREWER: We are also making a written transcript, Mr. Baker.
THE WlTNESS: What do you want me to describe?
MR.BREWER:I just want to make sure the record reflects what you are doing.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you came back from the Bronco and you testified yesterday you dropped your items off at the front entryway and then went into the kitchen, did Kaelin go with you?
A: Yes, I think he went before me.
Q: He was in the house already?
A: Yeah. We were talking when I came back.
Q: You were talking for a bit?
A: We were moving. I couldn't stand in front of him like you and I are talking. I was doing what I was doing, and he was talking to me as we're doing it, and at this point in here (Indicating) I was talking about going this way and him going the other way, and that's when --I think that's the first time I heard about a flashlight, is when I came back--
Q: From the Bronco.
A: Yeah. And I remember asking the limo -- I said, "Does the limo driver have one," I believe, or words that to that effect--
Q: Meaning a flashlight?
A: Yes. And he says no, and he may have showed me this little pen flashlight he had. And I said, "Look in the cupboard in the kitchen. There might be one." And that's when I went to my bag, and I think I had a quick conversation with Park about my golf bag, and at that point Kato was still talking, and I went into the kitchen.
Q: Okay. At no point during this whole encounter with Kaelin outside the property did you ever sort of stand face to face, stop and talk. Correct?
A: Not really, no. No.
Q: You were moving around all the time.
A: Yeah.Yeah.
Q: When you went into the kitchen, did you have a face-to-face conversation?
A: No. He was -- I think he was looking in the cupboard.
Q: And you were getting a drink of water. Right?
A: Yeah. I was talking to him. I went and got a water, came back, and I was just talking to him about, "Look there," and I didn't know where else to look for the flashlight.
Q: You didn't give him the alarm code at that time. Right?
A: No. As he was walking behind me as we went out and I think I was discussing, "Well, look for a flashlight, and the alarm is" -- whatever, and I said--and he was being Kato, and I said -- you know, I think I said, "IÕll call you," or something, but I know I said, "Well, look for the flashlight," and I just went and got in the limo.
Q: When the alarm is activated and you are entering the property, entering the door to the house, can you tell that the alarm is on?
A: Yes.
Q: On all exterior doors?
A: Not all exterior doors. Doors that there are a pad on and stuff, yes.
Q: Was there a pad outside Arnelle's door?
A: No.
Q: Now, if Arnelle came home later that evening and the alarm had been set by Kato, would the alarm have gone off when she opened her door?
A: Unless she disengaged it. No. No, it wouldn't have.
Q: And why is that?
A: Because there is no alarm on her door.
Q: On the exterior door of her guest room, there is no alarm.
A: Correct.
Q: Is that the only exterior room, plus Kato's, not subject to an alarm?
A: No. The other room is not subject to an alarm. All the exterior rooms are not subject to the alarm or were not subject to alarm.
Q: The three exterior guest rooms. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, from Arnelle's room, when she enters her room, can she go directly from her room to the inside of the home --
A: No
Q: -- through an interior door?
A: No.
Q: It's a free-standing room?
A: Yes.
MR.BAKER: Well, I don't know what you mean by "free-standing."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What I want to know is: Does she have another room that leads into the residence?
MR. BAKER: He answered that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: The answer is no. Correct?
A: The room that she was staying in at the time does not lead into the residence.
Q: So if Arnelle wanted to access the residence and the alarm were on, would she at all times be aware of that?
A: I would hope so, yes.
Q: And she would have to look at the keypad and see that it was on. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Is there a light?
A: Yes.
Q: And she had the code.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, earlier yesterday you had talked about where the luggage was placed, and I just want to make sure I understand. On this entryway area there are benches on either side?
A: Yes.
Q: Where I am going to put these X's, there are benches. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You testified yesterday that you had laid the golf clubs and the golf cover bag on one of the benches. Which bench?
A: Originally the southern bench.
Q: Which one is that?
A: This way (Indicating).
Q: This one over here (Indicating)?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay, the southern bench. And then you came down -- Did you move that to the northern bench at some point?
A: No.
Q: And you also testified that at some point when you were half dressed, you came down and dropped the suit bag on this golf bag. Correct?
A: I don't know if it was on it, but in the same place, yeah.
Q: On also the south bench?
A:
A: No, because I took the golf bag off the bench at that time and threw it
down on the ground.
Q: When you brought the suit bag down, you put this golf bag on the floor?
A: Yes.
Q: And then put the suit bag on the south bench?
A: No, I don't know. I may have just -- I may have put the suit bag down when I started going through the golf bag.
Q: The Bentley was --
MR. BAKER: We've gone through this whole thing yesterday, and I will pull it up because this is getting ridiculous to sit here, and when we are going to have our argument on Friday about ending the depo, we're going to pull this all back up for the judge when we go back and talk to him.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: The Bentley was facing Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: And yesterday you testified about leaving the white golf ball bag and another bluish bag. Did you leave that behind the Bentley or in front of the Bentley?
A: Behind the Bentley.
Q: Yesterday you testified about chipping the golf balls--
A: Yes.
Q: --and I wanted to know whether, using either one of these, you could point to the area where you were doing the golf ball hitting?
A: Right about in here (Indicating). Yeah, the lower part.
Q: I will put an "X" with a circle on it. Right there?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And you talked about a big tree. Was that the tree right here?
A: Tree over here (Indicating).
Q: This tree near Ashford. Right? I'll put a "T" there. And the golf balls you were hitting over the tree were the tree where the "T" is on. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Did you tell Kato Kaelin to call the police?
A: No.
Q: Or Westec?
A: No.
Q: Did you give -- did you say anything to him about talking to Arnelle?
A: No. Arnelle wasn't home.
Q: When she got home, I mean.
A: No.
Q: Did you take Kato's concerns seriously?
A: Not really.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I didn't.
MR. BAKER: He already answered that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Because he was Kato. Right?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Don't. You answered it once, and that's enough.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When Kaelin told you that he heard these noises, did he say at what time he heard them.?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you whether he just heard them or heard them earlier in the day?
A: I assumed it relatively just happened. Just an assumption on my part.
Q: Based on the way he was explaining it to you?
A: Based on that he had not mentioned it to me earlier in the day.
Q: But as best as you can recall, he didn't tell you when it happened?
A: No.
Q: Since you didn't take his concern seriously, why did you give him access to your house when you were leaving?
A: Because he seemed concerned and because I wanted him to find a flashlight and look around if that's what he wanted to do.
Q: And when you called him from the airport to give him the security code, did you discuss with him whether he had investigated the situation?
A: I may have. I may have said, "Did you find a flashlight?" I believe he said "No."
Q: Did you ask him if he had looked for people on the property or had investigated the sounds and noises that had concerned him?
A: I may have said, "Is everything all right?" And I'm assuming he said "Yes." I don't recall specifically. And then he -- I said, "Did you set the alarm?" And he said "Yes." That was that.
Q: Wasn't it in this call that you had given him the code?
A: Yes.
Q: So when you said, "Did you set the alarm," how was he supposed to have set the alarm --
A: Well, I asked him to set the alarm.
Q: Excuse me -- if he didn't have the code?
A: Well, I was then telling him to set the alarm. So he said he would set the alarm.
Q: So you didn't say, "Did you set the alarm?"
A: No.
Q: You asked him to set the alarm.
A: To set the alarm.
Q: I don't want you to assume anything. I just want to make sure I understand your testimony. Do you recall asking him what had happened with his concern about someone -- about hearing noises?
A: I do recall asking him, "Was everything okay?"
Q: And tell me what he said to the best of your recollection.
A: Well,you don't want me to assume, so I can't.
Q: Don't assume anything.
A: So I can't.
Q: So you don't recall.
A: I don't recall, no.
Q: At any time before you got on that airplane, did you consolidate any of your luggage?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you do that?
A: When we got to the airport.
Q: Did you do that where the limo driver pulled up to get the skycap?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you consolidate into what?
A: I put my balls in my golf bag, and I put balls--and I think I took the windbreaker and put it in my golf bag.
Q: Let me back up a bit. You had this bluish bag, right, which had the wind- breaker and the new maxfli 100s?
A: Yes.
Q: You took that bag and put it in what?
MR. BAKER: He didn't testify that they were new Maxfli 100s.
MR. PETROCELLI: He testified they were not scuffed.
MR. BAKER: There is a difference.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
MR. BAKER: Isn't there?
MR. BLASIER: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. I wouldn't know that.
MR. BAKER: I'm looking at you.
MR. KELLY: Were they Balatas?
MR. BAKER: Of course they're Balatas.
MR. PETROCELLI: I wouldn't know that.
Q: Tell me, did you take that bag with the Maxfli 100s and the wind-breaker and put it into another bag?
A: Yes.
Q: What bag did you put it into?
A: My golf bag.
Q: Opened up the golf cover bag and put it in.
A: Yes.
Q: Didn't put it into the golf bag itself, Correct?
A: I may have put the balls in the golf bag. I may have put it in the golf bag. I'm not sure about that.
Q: You took the balls out, you think?
A: I think so.
Q: And you left that other bag, the bluish bag in the golf cover bag?
A: Yes.
Q: Not the golf bag itself. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And did you take the wind-breaker out?
A: I'm not sure.
Q: You already had another wind-breaker. Correct?
A: No. I had a jacket. I had a jacket. I call it a windbreaker, as you saw, but it was a wet coat, but it's -- yeah. it's a different type, though.
Q: That's the one you got from the Bronco. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you carrying that?
A: I believe so. If I hadn't put it in my suit bag, I had it -- I was carrying it. One or the other.
Q: So where did you do this consolidation of the luggage? While the luggage was in the trunk?
A: No. I had taken it out of the trunk, and while I was standing out of the trunk and some guys were asking me for an autograph standing there, and I was doing it while they were standing there talking to me.
Q: Out of the trunk on the ground?
A: On the ground, yes.
Q: And did you do any other luggage consolidation?
A: No.
Q: What bags did you check with the skycap, and what did you carry
onto the plane?
A: The Louis Vuitton bag and the golf clubs I checked, and I carried my suit bag and my grip.
Q: And how much did you tip the skycap?
A: He said he only had $10 change, so he ended up with a $10 tip.
Q: You gave him a 20?
A: Yes. But he promised me he'd get my clubs on the car.
MR. BAKER: On the plane?
THE WITNESS: On the plane, yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you left that limo, you paid Park, too?
A: No. I told him to put 20 percent on the bill.
Q: And you signed it?
A: No. I don't think so, anyway. I normally don't.
Q: Did you use a credit card?
A: No.
Q: He just billed you. Right?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: When you left the limo area, what did you do then?
A: Went to the plane.
Q: Went directly in the doors and up to the gate?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you stop at any trash containers--
A: No.
Q: -- or receptacles?
A: No.
Q: None at all?
A: No.
Q: Did you stop to throw anything away?
A: No.
Q: Did you stop to rest any luggage on there in order to rearrange yourself or anything like that?
A: It's a possibility.
Q: When you say that's a possibility, give me your best recollection of whether you did that or not.
MR. BAKER: If you have a recollection.
THE WITNESS: I don't have a recollection. I just know that it wouldn't be unusual to stand by the ticket counter, put my bag on something, because I know he had people in front of him that he was dealing with, and I was beside him, and I might have put my bag either down or something to get my tickets out for him to give me my baggage claim.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: This is outside, you mean?
A: Yes.
Q: Where the baggage guy works behind that counter?
A: Yes.
Q: So you think you stopped there and rested your luggage?
A: Well, I know I stopped there and I know I went into my bag to get my ticket for him to, you know, do what he had to do, so I know that took place there. So if there was a garbage there, I could
have been around a garbage there.
Q: Do you remember putting a bag on the garbage, though?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk to anybody besides the skycap and the limo driver?
A: Everybody who spoke to me, talked to.
Q: Who spoke to you?
A: People.
Q: Can you name them.
A: No.
Q: How many?
A: I don't know.
Q: You mean just fans?
A: Yes.
Q: About how many?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Well, you spoke to Mr. Park and you spoke to the skycap. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You don't remember the skycap's name?
A: No.
Q: How many fans approached you?
A: I don't know.
Q: More than 10?
A: Probably, yes. Well, in the course of -- you mean during the course of getting from there to the plane?
Q: Yeah, from that point until you got on the airplane.
A: That spoke to me?
Q: Yeah.
A: I don't know. I don't know. Whoever I went by spoke to me.
Q: Did you stop to speak to anybody?
A: Other than -- I didn't -- I can't say I stopped to speak to the two
guys who were there. I might have. But it wasn't like -- the skycap was trying to check my luggage, so I didn't feel as if I was stopping for them. They just happened to be there.
Q: Two skycaps?
A: No . Two guys.
Q: Oh, two guys. Did you give an autograph--
A: Yes.
Q: - to both of those guys?
A: I don't recall.
Q: One or two autographs?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you give any other autographs?
A: I believe so, but I--I just believe so yes.
Q: Where did you give those other autographs?
A: I believe at the plane or at the counter of the plane, but I'm not
sure.
Q: And you made one phone call?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you make any others?
A: No.
Q: Did you use coins to make the call, or did you charge it to a number?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You have a calling credit card. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You use it regularly?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Bills it to your home phone?
A: I don't know.
Q: Or the OJ. Enterprises' office phone?
A: I would imagine. One of them.
Q: How long did the limo ride take to the airport?
A: I don't know. Not long.
Q: You just made casual conversation with Park?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you complain about anything.
A: Yes.
Q: What did you complain about?
A: Traveling.
Q: Just constant traveling?
A: Yes.
Q: Complain about anything else?
A: No.
Q: Complain about it being hot?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Were you hot?
A: Hot, no.
Q: Were you sweaty?
A: I was wet. I know that.
Q: From?
A: Jumping out of the shower, running downstairs, getting my thing together, getting in the plane -- I mean getting in the limo.
Q: Did you lower the windows in the back seat?
A: I always do.
Q: All the time?
A: Yeah. I don't like air-conditioning, so normally I would turn it off if it's on, and most limo drivers have it on, and put the window down.
Q: Dale St.John does that for you?
A: Sometimes, yes.
Q: You said you always do it.
A: Yes. But I don't need him to do that for me. I don't tell you to let the window down. I can let my own window down.
Q: But you tell him to shut the air-conditioning off?
A: No. Sometimes if the sun is hot, he'll have it on when I get in, and I'll turn it off.
Q: Now, did you and Mr. Park discuss Kato Kaelin?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: And tell us what was said.
A: Something about, "Was he nervous? He seemed serious." Words to
that effect.
Q: Who said that? Park?
A: I think Park said, "He seemed serious."
Q: Serious about what?
A: Whatever he was talking about.
Q: About investigating the property?
A: Yeah.
Q: And what did you say in response to that?
A: That's when I--I don't know if I said anything, but that's when I think I decided to call and make sure he had the alarm.
Q: Was there a phone in the airport -- I'm sorry--in the limousine?
A: I believe so.
Q: And you had your cell phone in your grip in the back seat with you.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you call from the car?
A: I may have tried.
Q: What is your best recollection?
A: I don't know, but I think I may have tried. I think something might have been wrong with the phone. I'm not really sure, but I might have tried.
Q: On what phone?
A: I don't know. If they had a phone there, I may have tried on their
phone.
Q: Did you try on your cell phone?
A: No, but I would have once I got to the plane.
Q: You "would have"' meaning what?
A: If I didn't have time to--if they didn't tell me I had time to call on the regular phone, I'd have sat on the plane and called.
Q: No. I am asking whether you used your cell phone in the limousine to make that call.
A: I don't believe so. I don't believe so, but I might have. I don't know.
Q: It was working. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: What number would you have called?
A: His number.
Q: And how did you know that number?
A: I would have had to dig my phone out of my bag--phone book out of my bag, which I might have done, and that would have been what I would have had to do.
Q: You have Kaelin's number in there?
A: I believe so.
Q: That's what you used at the airport phone?
A: I believe so.
Q: Any other discussion about Kaelin?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: When he said, "He seemed serious," what did you say?
A: He might have been answering an inquiry of mine.
Q: What was your inquiry?
A: "How was Kato? Did he seem serious to you?" I might have asked that. I'm not sure. I just know that was the gist of the -- I can't even call it a conversation. It was probably just a quick exchange between the two of us.
Q: Why do you think you asked him that question?
A: Because I hadn't really given Kato much thought when I was leaving, and then as I was settling down finally in the car, I started thinking about it.
Q: When you picked up the phone in your bedroom from Alan Park,
what did you say to him?
A: Actually I started talking before he spoke. I just picked it up because I thought it was Dale, and I said, "Yeah, yeah, I know I'm running late. I'll be right down."
Q: Did you say anything else?
A: If he didn't call me right back, because I thought I might have hung up right then and then he called right back, and -- because he had said something to me that -- rather tentatively, "I've been here," and I said--I guess I said something about, "Yeah, I know. I've been in the shower, but I'm coming right down,'' and that was it.
Q: You did not tell him you had overslept. Correct?
A: Absolutely not.
Q: And you in fact had not been sleeping. Correct?
A: True.
Q: When was the last time on June 12 you had slept? When you up that morning?
A: I may have dozed a little between -- may have. I was reading and watching I think basketball, or whatever was on, and I may have dozed somewhat before I went to the recital.
Q: We will get to that later. When you were walking the dog after 10:00 o'clock p.m. down Rockingham and up Ashford, did you see anybody?
A: First, that's not correct. I wasn't walking the dog down Rockingham and up Ashford. That's not correct. My dog went out when I went to the Bronco, went and did her doo, and I walked around to the other gate.
Q: You walked the dog from the Rockingham gate to the Ashford gate.
Correct?
A: I walked to the Ashford gate, called my dog to come in at the Ashford gate.
Q: Did you see anyone during that time?
A: No, but I heard someone.
Q: Did anyone see you?
A:I don't know.
Q: Did you talk to anyone?
A:No.
Q: What did you hear?
A: I heard the doors in my neighbor's yard over here (Indicating). When they were moving around, sometimes you can hear them if
they're outside going inside or outside.
Q: And what neighbors are you referring to?
A: The Schlesingers.
Q: Schlesingers?
A: Yes.
Q: Salingers?
A: Oh, yeah, I'm sorry. Salingers.
Q: Salingers.
A: Yes.
Q: Do they live just north of your property on Rockingham?
A: No.
Q: Where do they live relative to this?
A: Just south.
MR.BAKER: South of the--
MR.PETROCELLI: Do I have my directions wrong?
MR.BAKER: You do.
BY MR.PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. So--
MR.BAKER: Here. It's on here. See? South that way (Indicating).
MR.PETROCELLI: Okay. South is where the Rockingham gate is. Okay.
Q: You heard some sounds in the Salinger property?
A: Yes.
Q: They seemed normal sounds to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Just people going m and out of the house?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see anyone there?
A: No.
Q: Did you see cars driving by? At any time when you were out on that -- when you went to the Bronco and then walked to Ashford and got your dog and went in.
A: I don't recall, no.
Q: Now, you've heard the testimony of Mr. Park about seeing a person in dark clothing in the vicinity of the front entryway and driveway area going into the front door. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you told Larry King that that was you. Correct?
A: I told Larry King that I walked out of my house, and I assume that if he saw someone at that point in time it was me, because judging by his testimony, right when I got back at the top of the stairs the phone rung, and his testimony I guess sort of said that. So that would have been me, yes.
Q: That would have been you when you came down the stairs half
dressed the first time to put down the suit bag. Correct?
A: Yeah, and to look -- actually I didn't come down to put down the
suit bag. I came down to see if I had black shoes in my golf bag.
Q: And you came downstairs, and you opened that golf bag and looked in for your shoes. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And that's when you put the golf bag on the floor from the south bench.
A: I actually held it up, thinking that Dale was in the car looking at me, and threw it down for -- sort of me signaling to Dale: Come and get the golf bag.
Q: Dale was, you thought--
A: Yeah.
Q: By the way, you didn't know that it was Park. Right?
A: No.
Q: You thought it was Dale?
A: Right.
Q: "Dale" being Dale St. John, your regular--
A: Dale or one of his guys who normally drive me.
Q: Who else normally drives you?
A: You'd have to ask Dale.
Q: You don't--
A: I don't recall their names, no.
Q: You don't remember their names?
A: No.
Q: Anyway, you signaled to Dale from the front entry area?
A: I picked the golf clubs up and held them up and then threw them down, thinking whoever was there, because it's an unobstructed view, would see me, and threw it down on the ground; and if it was Dale or the other guy, I thought they would push the gate, come in
and get the bag.
Q: Dale knows how to push that gate open?
A: I would assume so. I know he has a tall guy that works for him that would have known because I'm sure he's done it before, because they're all concerned about not letting my dog get out.
Q: Who is that tall guy?
A: As I told you, I don't know. You'd have to ask him. But he's driven me often.
Q: Dale has come to your property and basically let himself in that Ashford gate. Is that what you're saying?
A: I'm saying that many times Dale has come to my property -- I'm
normally getting dressed. I'm normally not the guy that's letting him in -- left the--
THE REPORTER: Excuse me. "Left the"?
THE WITNESS:-- have come to pick me up without driving on my property, come into my property, take my luggage outside of the gate and put it in the car. I'm saying that that has happened often.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And when that happens often, who lets Dale in the gate, or his driver?
A: I would assume Michelle or Gigi or whoever was downstairs at the time.
Q: My question to you is: Did you tell Dale or this tall driver how to get into the Ashford gate--
A: No.
Q:--if no one lets them in?
A: No. I've never told them personally, no.
Q: You testified yesterday that you know a way in which you can push the door manually open. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever describe that to the drivers?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see them let themselves in without being buzzed in?
A: I've seen them on my property when I'm down, go out that gate with that gate going back and forth on the hinge, yes.
Q: And do you know how they got in?
A: Well, normally my housekeeper was down there dealing with it.
Q: On this occasion you knew, on the evening of June 12, there wasn't a housekeeper. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And when you signaled to the driver with your golf bag -- is that what you're now saying?
MR. BAKER: What do you mean, "now saying"? Don't--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that what you're saying, that you signaled to the driver with your golf bag?
A: Start all over again, please.
Q: Okay. You said you came down to the golf bag with your suit bag, put the suit bag down someplace --
A: Correct.
Q: -- looked in the golf bag --
A: Right.
Q: -- for your shoes.
A: Correct.
Q: Black shoes.
A: Yes.
Q: Actually picked the bag up and walked out into the driveway area?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: He never said that.
THE WITNESS: I never said that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You said you held the bag up--
A: I picked it off the bench. I guess they can see me. You want to describe it as I'm doing it.
Q: Correct.
A: Picked it up off the bench, held it up and threw it down on the ground (Indicating).
Q: Held it up and looked over towards the limousine?
A: Yeah, held it up towards that, because it was I guess parking lights
shining in, and the limo was right there looking at me, and threw it down.
Q: Limo was on the other side of the gate.
A: Yes, but there was no -- it was unobstructed. There was nothing on the gate to keep him from looking straight down the whole driveway, for that matter.
Q: And you did that, what you just described, in order to signal to him to put -- come get the golf bag. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: How did you expect him to come into the property to get the golf bag?
A: Well, I thought he would push the gate. If he didn't push the gate, it would have been simple: I would have said "Push the gate" when I came back down. It was no big deal.
Q: You had never told him about pushing the gate.
A: I never told Kato how to open a door, but I assume he knows how to open a door.
Q: Why would you assume that the limousine driver would know how to get into a gate that would appear to be closed and locked?
A: Because he had been coming to my house for years, and everyone
else who has come to my house for years know that.
Q: Knows that you can get into that gate by just pushing it?
A: Yes.
Q: But you never told the drivers that.
A: I never told Kato that, but I'm sure if you asked him, he'll tell you that's how he came into that gate. I never explained it to him. I've never explained it to Gigi, but I'm sure she does it.
Q: And what were you wearing when you did that?
A: Wearing what--when?
Q: What were you wearing when you motioned to the limousine driver with your golf club from that entryway?
MR. BAKER: It's a golf bag.
MR.PETROCELLI: Golf bag. Golf bag.
THE WITNESS: I had on pants. I had on shoes. I had on a robe.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What color was the robe?
A: I don't know, but it's still in my house now.
Q: And no shirt.
A: And no shirt.
Q: What kind of robe was it?
A: Cloth robe.
Q: White terry cloth?
A: No.
Q: What color?
A: I said it's at my house. It's a darker robe, but it's at my house.
Q: A black robe?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Blue?
A: Possibly.
Q: Was it tied?
A: I doubt it.
Q: The robe was never taken by the police?
A: Neither were the bath towels. .Neither were the clothes that I were wearing.
Q: Which clothes? You mean the clothes you took off?
A: The clothes you asked me about, yes.
Q: The golf pants you took off. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And the shirt.
A: Yes.
Q: So is it your recollection -- Withdrawn. Did you actually come out
onto the driveway?
A: No.
Q: You're positive of that?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you indicate, Mr. Simpson. by pointing to Exhibit 28 where you were standing or as far out near the driveway that you came?
MR. BAKER: OJ., just wait until I come down there.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you understand the question? Okay. You can wait until Mr. Baker returns.
MR. BAKER: And the question is to point where or to make a mark where he was the furthest out from the entrance of his front door?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: During this occasion when you lifted your golf bag to signal to the limousine driver.
A: This is purely an estimation. There is not much room there. So I would say to the westernmost point of -- possibly. I don't know if my body went that far, but to certainly in the area to the westernmost point of my benches.
Q: What is the distance from the door to the driveway, to the beginning of the driveway?
A: I'd be totally guessing.
Q: 10 feet?
A: 15 feet.
Q: 15 feet. And how many feet were you from the front door?
A: You told me not to assume, so I'm not going to assume.
Q: What is your best estimate?
A: Halfway, three-quarters of the way.
Q: From the front door?
A: Yes.
Q: So you were at least three or four feet from the driveway?
A: I would say so, yes.
Q: Okay. I will put a little...
MR. BAKER: What is that--
MR. PETROCELLI: What is that, Mr. Baker? You describe it.
MR. BAKER: No. But I'm saying--
MR. PETROCELLI: It's a cross.
MR. BAKER: I understand that, but what I'm saying, that is not where he indicated where he said the furthest most -- the westernmost portion of the bench is, and the benches don't go out that far. So that's--
THE WlTNESS: And that's an estimate, the westernmost part of the benches, but roughly in that area.
MR. BAKER: There are aerial photographs of this property. There's--
MR. PETROCELLI: Do you have any?
MR. BAKER: I do at the office.
MR.PETROCELLI: Maybe you can bring one, and we can be real clear about it.
Q: Anyway, your testimony is westernmost part of the benches--
A: Roughly.
Q:--three or four feet from the edge of the driveway.
A: Yeah, I would say so.
Q: And standing there upright, a person at the Ashford gate can see unobstructed?
A: Upright, yes. I think if I was down -- I used to have a bunch of bushes there at the time -- down they would have--probably would have had a little bit of a problem, but standing upright they should have had absolutely no problem seeing a person there, as they should have had no problem seeing anybody along this entire
driveway at this end.
Q: And at this time when you picked up the bag, Kato Kaelin wasn't
around yet. Correct?
A: Correct.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let's take a short break.
MR. BAKER: Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:51.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 11 :15.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to mark as Exhibit 29 the piece of paper on which Mr. Simpson wrote the area of his house that is subject to the motion detector -- was at the time, June 1994. We will omit this from the transcript. I will just maintain custody of it.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 29 was marked for identification by the reporter [ and was retained by Mr. Petrocelli.)
THE WlTNESS: I should write -- never mind.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, referring to Exhibit 27, which is another sketch of Rockingham, when Mr. Kaelin would access typically his property --his room, I should say, would he take this route that goes around the pool to get to his front door?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Can you trace how he would go, with the pen?
A: From the front driveway?
Q: Yeah.
A: (Witness complies.)
Q: And what you--where you terminated the line, is that the door to
his room?
A: Yes.
Q: This is Exhibit 27.
A: Actually, I terminated it to the wrong room. That's my daughter's room. This is his room. I'll try to put an X there.
Q: Where the "X" is?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when Kaelin was telling you about these noises, yesterday you indicated that he indicated the noises came from the other side of his wall, and I just would like you to put a marking there on this sketch so that we have a clear understanding.
A: I'm not sure if I indicated that he said the noises came from the other side of his walls. He thought it was -- I thought he was talking about an earthquake. So I didn't have any really idea where he said the noises had come from, but he was in his room, and he thought we might have had an earthquake, and he was concerned about sounds or something, but as I said, I wasn't really paying that much attention to him.
Q: Did Mr. Kaelin tell you where the sounds or noises that he heard or the earthquake that he felt had emanated from?
A: I don't believe so, but he may have, but I don't have--I don't really know. He just wanted to go look around.
Q: So you had no idea where on the property that Kaelin heard these
sounds.
A: At that point I don't believe I did, but -- he was talking about an
earthquake, which I don't know where an earthquake emanates from, and he wanted -- he seemed to want to look around.
Q: He did not tell you where on the property he believed he might have heard a prowler?
A: I don't believe so?
MR. BAKER: He didn't mention a prowler.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: He did not tell you where on the property he wanted to go investigate with a flashlight?
A: Well, he was over by the garage when I saw him. When I was walking, he was hanging around by the garage and he had a flashlight. and as I said, as I came back in, there was some talk,
and I think I suggested to him, "Well, let's get a flashlight. You walk one way, I'll go the other way, and we'll see. "
Q: Which way did you tell him to go?
A: I didn't tell him to go either way at that point. At that point the conversation went into the flashlight, and at that point he was going to go into the house to see if there was a flashlight.
Q: When you said to him, "You go one way and I'll go the other way," you did not designate which ways you were referring to. Is that correct?
A: Well, there's only two ways to go if you're going to go around my
house.
Q: What are those two ways?
A: One way he would normally take.
Q: Correct.
A: And other way is the way to the walkway south of my garage.
Q: And could you trace that route?
A: From?
Q: And then end it with a Y instead of an X.
A: End it where?
Q: Well, start at the garage. And you said there were two ways.
A: Yeah.
Q: Describe what you just said.
A: I said he could walk around my house one way. I'll go the other way, and we'll see--
Q: What's the other way?
A: The walkway. Where do I put the Y, is what I'm trying to ask you?
Q: Well--
A: The back of his front door?
Q: Yes.
A: Okay.
Witness complies.)
Q: So you could actually walk on the south side of the garage?
A: Yes.
Q: The south side of the property?
A: Yes.
Q: And is there a path?
A: Yes.
Q: And walk all the way to the southern end of the property and then come back around. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Well, that's not the southern end.
MR. PETROCELLI: Eastern end.
Q: You are on the southern end, you are walking along the southern end of the property heading east.
A: Yes.
Q: Go towards the eastern tip of the property, head north and come back around.
A: There is a fence right here (Indicating).
Q: Are you describing what existed in June of 1994?
A: I believe so, yes.
MR. KELLY: Dan, can we just agree that we are going to make copies of this after we are done marking it?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. Absolutely.
MR. KELLY: I don't think Mr. Baker is excited about me looking over his shoulder.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think Mr. Baker--
MR. KELLY: It's just hard to follow it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you were designating, "I'll go this way; you go the other way," did you have in mind that Kaelin would go around the pool area and you would go around the garage?
A: We never really got to that point. At that point the conversation went to a flashlight.
Q: If you were heading down the property in an easterly direction
starting with the garage and going to the end, are there any gates that you have to open before you get to the end?
A: There are gates there, yes.-
Q: Could you mark them?
A: I believe there's one here.
(Witness complies.)
Q: Do you need keys to open those gates?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Did you at that time?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: Were those gates both in working condition then?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you know what the physical condition of those gates were at that time?
A: No. But I don't think they've ever been locked.
Q: Do they have locks on them.
A: I don't think so.
Q: You indicated two gates. Could you letter them A and B?
A: I'm guessing here now. I believe there's one here, and I know there's one here (Indicating).
(Witness complies.)
Q: Now, along that southern path that you just circumscribed, what separates your property from the neighbor's property?
A: A fence and some hedges.
Q: And the neighbors are the Salingers?
A: Yes.
Q: And does that fence extend all the way from Rockingham to the end of your property?
A: I believe so
Q: Are there any openings in it?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Were there at the time?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: How high is that fence?
MR.BAKER: From where?
BY MR.PETROCELLI:
Q: What is the height of the fence as it traverses down the southern part of your property in an easterly direction?
MR. BAKER: No. But what I'm talking about is: You mean from his property or from the Salinger driveway, because it's different?
BY MR.PETROCELLI:
Q: They are different levels?
A: I really don't know.
Q: Mr. Baker apparently does.
MR. BAKER: I do.
BY MR.PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, let's just go with what you know for now. Okay? If you--What is your estimation of the height of that fence?
A: Four to five feet.
Q: Standing on your property?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: So it would come up to where on you?
A: I don't know. What's four or five feet on me? I'm six feet tall.
Q: Two feet from the top of your head. What's on the top of that fence?
A: It's tied off.
Q: Are there any -- Tied off?
A: Yeah, it's like the fence tie.
Q: I see.
MR. BAKER: It's chain link tied off at the top.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is it jagged?
A: I would say so.
Q: Have you ever jumped that fence?
A: No.
Q: On the other side, that is, the southern side of that fence, there are
bushes?
A: Yeah, trees, bushes, hedges, yes.
Q: All on the Salinger side?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And do you know the kind of trees or hedges that are along that
southern path?
A: I know there's some Eugenias. Other than that, I don't know.
Q: Do they drop leaves down on your property?
A: Yes.
Q: Do they drop anything else?
A: Berries.
Q: What kind of berries?
A: Eugenia berries.
Q: Have you seen Eugenia berries on that path before?
A: Yes.
Q: Where? The whole path?
A: Wherever the Eugenia trees are.
Q: Where are they?
A: I don't -- well, I don't think there's any west of the driveway, but
I can't--I mean the garage, rather, but I can't tell you where they start -- where they start. I don't really have a memory of where they start.
Q: Now, did Mr. Kaelin indicate to you in any way, shape or form that
he had heard sounds or noises on the outside of his bedroom?
A: I don't recall. I really don't. He was talking about earthquakes and
noises.
Q: Did he indicate to you that he had heard sounds or noises or earthquakes or whatever on that -- in the area of that southern part of your property behind the office and the various rooms?
A: I don't recall.
MR. BAKER: That's the fifth time you asked that.
MR. PETROCELLI: You know, Mr. Baker, those comments are not helpful, and they're self-serving, and they are not--
MR. BAKER: And they're accurate, because I am bringing it up over here --
MR.PETROCELLI: They are of no significance to the -- and there is nothing wrong in asking a question five times if it's appropriate.
MR. BAKER: Well, we differ greatly on that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: There was some talk about getting a flashlight. Are there parts of
your property in the evening that are not illuminated such that you would need a flashlight to go look?
A: I would think so.
Q: What parts?
A: I would say this -- probably anything behind Arnelle's room (Indicating), what was Jason's room, Kato's room, I would assume that you would need a flashlight back there.
Q: You are now referring to that pathway that you were describing. Correct?
A: Correct.
MR. BAKER: A portion of the pathway, he was referring to.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: From the garage to the end?
A: Yeah. And then there's -- this is not a pathway (Indicating). This is
just a dirt area around there.
Q: As you come around, what is it? Arnelle's room.
A: Yes.
Q: Is there a gate--or a fence, I should say, all the way around?
A: No. Well, what do you mean? Separating my property from others
properties?
Q: On the eastern end of your property, on the southeast corner as you head north here, is there a gate there?
A: As I head north, there is a gate right here (Indicating)--
Q: I'm sorry. Is there a fence?
A: Well, my tennis court fence.
Q: And that goes to where?
A: My tennis court.
Q: The end here (Indicating)?
A: This (Indicating) is a fence that separates my property from Frank Jobe's and--
Q: Mr. Simpson, referring to the area just east of Arnelle's room here, do you see where I'm referring.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Is this a dirt area?
A: Yes.
Q: So one can walk through that dirt area?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: What is in this area? Anything?
A: Shrubbery.
Q: And does the fence proceed down this far?
A: Yes.
Q: The Salinger fence?
A: Yes.
Q: Goes all the way to the end of your property. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And what's on the eastern end of your property?
A: Fence.
Q: Coming up north, you mean?
A: Going south, north or south, yes.
Q: And who is on the eastern side of your property? What is on the eastern side of your property?
A: Other houses.
Q: Do you know the names of those neighbors?
A: One is Jobe, and the other one I don't know.
Q: Jobe?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay.
A: The other one, nobody's living there, I should say.
Q: Let's mark that "C," that gate that you said is north of Arnelle's room. (Witness complies.)
Q: Are there any other gates on that path that you described?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Do you know whether in June of 1994 the gate that you just marked with the letter "C" was there?
A: I'm pretty sure it was.
Q: And did it work?
A: I don't know.
Q: Were all three of these gates on their hinges, is what I mean to say, A, B and C, in June of 1994?
A: Yeah, I don't think--I don't know. I would assume so, yes. I shouldn't assume. I don't know.
Q: Prior to -- At any time on June 12,1994, were you on that path that you just described behind the office, Kaelin's room and Arnelle's room?
A: No.
Q: And prior to June 12, when was the last time that you had walked
down that path?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Was it within the last--within a week before?
A: I have no idea. I doubt it, but I have no idea.
Q: Can't remember at all?
A: At all.
Q: Okay. And when was the last time that you had walked down that path behind Kaelin's room in the evening when it was dark?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Have you ever done so?
A: All the way down? I doubt it, but I may have.
Q: Do you remember doing so?
A: I think a couple of times I had to climb through the guest house window or something when the door as locked and somebody lost their key, possibly Arnelle's room maybe on one occasion. I may have had to do that.
Q: So you would have -- from this driveway area, you would have gone down past your garage all the way down to Arnelle's room?
A: I probably would have come out of the washroom if I'd have done
that.
Q: Where is the washroom on this?
A: (Indicating). And I -- never mind.
Q: You would have come out of the washroom--
A: I'm just guessing. I mean, I don't--
Q: I don't want you to guess. I want to know the last time that you remember at night going down that path.
A: I don't remember what door I -- which way I approached it, no.
Q: Do you remember going down that path with a flashlight at night?
A: No.
Q: What doors access the property from that path? Starting at the beginning of the garage.
A: The door that goes into the garage and the door that goes into my washroom.
Q: Can you mark that? Yeah, mark that with an X and a circle. And then mark the next one with a Y and a circle.
A: I've already put an "X" there.
Q: Okay, that's fine. You can circle that "X." (Witness complies.)
Q: You've got two doors there. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Your master key works on both of them?
A: I would assume so.
Q: Are there any other doors down the rest of that path?
A: No.
Q: If you come around the property, around Arnelle's room, where is the next exterior door? Arnelle's door?
MR. BAKER: Exterior to what?
MR. PETROCELLI: Into any of those guest homes.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And the next one is Kaelin's?
A: No. It's actually this--you've got two Arnelle rooms here, so both are Arnelle's room.
Q: Two Arnelle rooms, so two doors to Arnelle's.
A: Yes.
Q: And then the next one is what?
A: Kaelin's.
Q: And then the next one is what?
A: Into my pool--into my family room.
Q: From the pool area?
A: Yes.
Q: And could you put a Y and a circle around that. (Witness complies.)
Q: Does the alarm work on that one?
A: Yes.
Q: Why don't you finish off the exterior doors for me.
MR. BAKER: They're virtually all on that piece. (Witness complies.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What are the markings? X you're making. Right?
A: Y's, X's --
Q: What are you making? Y's now?
A: Yeah, I guess they're Y's.
Q: Okay. Keep going. (Witness complies.)
Q: Okay. Have you ever jumped the fence from the Salinger property
over onto your property?
A: No.
Q: Now, yesterday you mentioned that you noticed some blood in the kitchen when you went to get your drink of water.
MR. BAKER: No, he didn't.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I don't want to mischaracterize your testimony. I want to go back to when you were in the kitchen getting a drink of water, and Kaelin was there and I think he was looking for a flashlight in the cupboard.
Do you remember that?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, at some point during that event--
A: Uh-huh.
Q: -- did you notice blood?
A: What I thought was blood, yes.
Q: Was that the first time that you noticed what you thought was blood all day long?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you see the blood?
A: On -- just a drop really on the counter by my sink, and then on this side of my hand (Indicating).
Q: Now, for the record, you are referring to the outside of your left pinkie.
A: Yeah. Sort of fingernail area.
Q: Near the fingernail area?
A: Yes.
Q: You saw the blood on the counter while you were getting the drink of water?
A: No. My drink of water's in my washroom, but while I was at the
counter, I did.
Q: At the kitchen counter?
A: Yes.
Q: What were you there for?
A: Kato was getting a flashlight, and I was drinking a glass of water, waiting for him to get the flashlight or talking to him. He was getting the flashlight. We were all in motion.
Q: You saw one drop of blood on the counter?
A: What I thought was, yes.
Q: Small drop?
A: Yes.
Q: Like a pinpoint? How big was the drop of blood?
A: Small.
Q: How small? You want to draw it for me?
MR. BAKER: No, don't draw it.
THE WITNESS: No. I don't know. Small
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I want you to describe the size of this blood drop.
A: You know what? I didn't really study it. I just saw what I thought was blood and I saw something on my hand, and I just took a Kleenex -- not a Kleenex. I tore a part of the roll of paper that I keep there--
Q: You mean like paper towels?
A: Yes. I just tore a piece off and was talking to Kato.
Q: Okay. Now, when you saw the little tiny blood spot, did you then
look on your body, hands, whatever, where the blood was coming from?
A: No. I looked at my -- as I said, I had the glass, so I saw it on my pinkie finger, and other than that I didn't-- I took a thing and wiped it and didn't see anything as I was talking to Kato, and I just continued on what I was doing.
Q: Did you notice blood also on your pinkie finger?
A: Just what I told you: On the side of my pinkie finger up along near my fingernail.
Q: How much blood did you see?
A: Not much.
Q: A few droplets?
A: I wouldn't know how to describe it, on my finger.
Q: Was it dripping?
A: No.
Q: You then got a little piece of the paper towel and put it on to wipe it off?
A: Yeah, kind of--as I was talking to Kato, I kind of did wipe it.
Q: How big of a paper towel piece?
A: Not much. A tear-off.
Q: A tear-off of a normal-size sheet?
A: Yeah.
Q: What did you do with the paper towel piece that you tore off after you applied it to your left pinkie?
A: I assume I -- I'm in the kitchen. I could have thrown it in the garbage or I could have thrown it as I went out the front door, because I immediately was exiting the house at that time.
Q: You mean thrown it on the ground?
A: May have, yes.
Q: What's your best recollection of what you did with that piece of
paper towel with the blood on it?
A: I don't have a recollection.
Q: When you applied it to your finger, did it get completely soaked with blood?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Just dabbed it?
A: I just wiped the blood off, and that seemed to be it. I didn't see any other blood.
Q: Did you see a cut or scrape or an abrasion or anything like that?
A: No.
Q: Any mark at all?
A: No.
Q: Is your garbage in the kitchen right underneath your sink?
A: Yes. No, but it's in my kitchen, yes.
Q: When is your garbage thrown out?
A: I don't know.
Q: When does the trash come?
A: I think Tuesdays maybe.
Q: Tuesday morning.
A: I believe so.
Q: Who takes it out?
A: Whoever is--From the house?
Q: Do you ever take the trash out to be picked up?
A: What do you mean? To the street?
Q: Yes.
A: In my life?
Q: No. As a regular practice.
A: No.
Q: your maid does?
A: My gardener does.
Q: Gardener.What days did he come in June of 1994?
A: I don't know.
Q: Every day?
A: I doubt it, no.
Q: What days did the pool man come?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know their schedules?
A: No.
Q: Did they have your code?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Code for the alarm the house?
MR. PETROCELLI: Alarm.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What was the name of your pool man in June of 1994?
A: It may have still been Paul Brown. I don't recall when he passed, but he passed, but he was my pool man for as long as I've had the house virtually.
Q: He passed?
A: Passed away
Q: Recently?
A: I believe so. I can't recall if it was right before this incident or right after this incident.
Q: What was the name of your gardener in June of 1994?
A: Gus.
Q: Is he still your gardener?
A: Yes.
Q: What's his last name?
A: I don't know.
Q: What's his company's name?
A: I don't know if he has a company.
Q: Now, when you went into the--when you went from the kitchen out to the property, did you drop any more blood?
A: l don't know.
Q: Did you see any?
A: No.
Q: When you went into the limousine, did you drop any blood in the
limousine?
A: I didn't see any, no.
Q: The whole time you were--
A: The whole time.
Q: Did you say anything to Kaelin about the cut on your finger at that
time?
A: I didn't know if I had a cut on my finger at that time.
Q: Did you say anything to Kaelin about the blood coming from your
finger?
A: No.
Q: Did he see you apply the paper towel to the blood?
A: I don't know what he saw. He was looking in the cabinet.
Q: His back was to you when that happened?
A: I don't know. He was -- I'm sure -- his back was to me sometimes. He was in a cabinet, so his back would have had to be with me. I was in the kitchen. I really wasn't paying attention which directions he was looking other than the fact that he was looking for a flashlight.
Q: He never acknowledged to you that he saw the blood. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Did the limousine driver acknowledge to you that he saw blood?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell him about the blood?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask him for a paper towel or a napkin or tissue or anything like that?
A: I didn't need one.
Q: So during the entire limousine drive, you didn't need to apply anything to stop bleeding. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And so far as you knew, there was no more bleeding?
A: Yes.
Q: And you did not bleed again until the incident in Chicago that you've described yesterday. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: So as far as -- So you had no cuts on your body that were bleeding
when you left Los Angeles to go to Chicago. Correct?
A: As far as I knew, correct.
Q: When you went to the Bronco to
get the cell phone case and the windbreaker, did you bleed in the Bronco?
A: Not that I was aware of.
Q: Did you see any blood in the Bronco?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any blood on the cell phone case or the windbreaker?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any blood on any of the garment bags that you were carrying or the luggage bags?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any blood on any other surface that entire evening
other than the counter and your finger?
A: No.
Q: You saw the blood on the side of your pinkie, your left pinkie.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Did you have any idea how that happened?
A: No.
Q: Do you now know how it happened?
A: No.
Q: As you sit here now, you have no idea what caused that finger to produce a little blood?
A: If it produced the blood, no.
Q: You don't even know if it came from that finger?
A: Correct.
Q: You think you might have touched something that was bloody?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Do you know if the blood that you saw was your blood?
A: No.
Q: You don't know.
A: No.
Q: Did you see anyone else bleeding that evening?
A: No.
Q: So just to be clear on this, when you looked at your left finger when you saw the little blood, you did not see any cuts on it. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you examined it. Correct?
A: Not really.
Q: You looked at it enough to see that you couldn't see any cuts. Correct?
A: No. I wiped it, Isaw no more blood, and that was it.
Q: And you didn't see any cuts.
A: No.
Q: Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: To the best of your knowledge, there were no cuts on your left hand when you left the house to go to Chicago. Correct?
A: None that I saw, no.
Q: Correct?
A: Correct, none that I saw.
Q: And none that you were aware of. Correct?
A: Yeah, none that I was aware of, but I knew there was blood on my
finger.
Q: That one moment. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: When you say none that you were aware of, was there any reason to believe that you had cuts on your hand?
MR. BAKER: You mean other than the blood on his pinkie?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You said you saw a little blood on your pinkie, but you looked at it and didn't see any cuts.
A: Yeah. I wiped it, and I didn't see any other blood, so--
Q: And there was no blood coming from any other part of your hand.
Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Or any other part of your body. Correct?
A: As far as I knew, that's correct.
Q: You say as far as you knew. Did you have reason to believe you might have been bleeding without your knowledge?
A: I saw blood on my finger and a drop of blood on my counter. Yes.
Q: That's the only blood you saw all day. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Has it ever happened before where you saw blood on a part of your body without seeing a cut?
A: Yes.
Q: When has that happened?
A: Quite often. Someone will say, "Are you bleeding?" Sometimes it's something on my golf shirt, and it would be on my golf shirt, and I not see where it came from.
Q: Would you look?
A: If there's a mirror, I can look at my face. If there's not a mirror, I couldn't see.
Q: And those times when you saw blood on your body and you did look, was there ever a time when you could not tell where it came from?
A: Yes.
Q: Did that happen often?
A: In my life?
Q: Five years before June 12,1994.
A: I don't know about "often," but it's happened.
Q: You would see blood, look, not see a cut and not know where it
came from?
A: Correct.
Q: But believed it was your blood.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you believe it was your blood there on June 12 that you saw?
A: I didn't think about it, but I assumed it was, yes.
Q: Did you cut yourself playing golf?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you cut yourself on the cell phone in the Bronco?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you cut yourself getting the case out of the Bronco?
A: I have no -- I don't know.
Q: Do you think you did?
A: No.
Q: Did you cut yourself swinging those golf clubs on the evening of
June 12?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you see any blood on the foyer of your house -- of your entryway?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any blood on the driveway of your property?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any blood outside your Bronco?
A: No.
Q: Inside your Bronco?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any blood inside your bathroom in your bedroom?
A: On the 12th, no.
Q: When was the last time before the 12th that you did see blood inside the bathroom?
A: Every time I shave. Normally. Most times I shave.
Q: Do you use a manual shaver?
A: Yes.
Q: Razor blade?
A: Yes.
Q: You usually cut yourself?
A: Yes.
Q: When you do that, you wash away any of the nicks and the blood?
A: Normally, yes.
Q: Did you cut yourself shaving on June 12th?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you shave on June 12th?
A: I believe in the morning, I did.
Q: What time?
A: Whatever time I got up. Would have been 5:00, 6:00 o'clock in the morning.
Q: To play golf?
A: Yes.
Q: And you shaved?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Do you remember applying any tissues or anything to stop any bleeding then?
A: I don't ever do that.
Q: What do you do to stop the bleeding?
A: I just wash it. Like I cut myself this morning a little bit here (Indicating) and I was bleeding.
Q: You just wash it with water?
A: Wash it with water --
Q: And it goes away?
A: And it goes away, yeah.
Q: You didn't cut yourself -- When you shave, what hand do you use?
A: My right hand, I believe, yes.
Q: You're right-handed. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you didn't cut yourself shaving -- excuse me. You didn't cut your left hand or finger shaving that morning, did you?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Were you using any razor blades at all later in the day?
A: No
Q: Were you using any sharp instruments later at all that day?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you handle a knife at any time on June 12?
A: I don't recall what I had for breakfast or lunch, so I don't know.
Q: What about dinner?
A: No.
Q: You had no knife in your hands from about after lunchtime on June 12th--
A: I don't--
Q: -- is that correct? No knife in your hands after lunchtime on June
12?
A: Yes.
Q: That's correct?
A: Yes. I mean, I don't recall if my key chain had a Swiss Army knife on it at that time, but it probably did, so I might have had that knife in my hand.
Q: Did you use that knife on your Swiss Army --your Swiss Army knife on your key chain on June 12th?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What at that time did you use that knife for, if anything?
A: Scissors. I always use the scissors for strings and for nose hairs.
Q: There's a scissors on that key chain?
A: Yes.
Q: Part of the Swiss knife?
A: Yes.
Q: A little tiny utility knife?
A: That's correct.
Q: What else is there besides a scissors and a knife?
A: A blade--oh, the blade.
Q: A blade and a scissors.
A: Yes.
Q: Anything else?
A: Toothpick. No -- toothpick possibly.
Q: Metal?
A: No. Plastic.
Q: Did you use the blade or the scissors or the toothpick on June 12?
A: As I say, I may have used the scissors, but I don't recall.
Q: If you did use the scissors, did you cut yourself?
A: I don't recall, no.
Q: To the best of your knowledge, you did not cut yourself on June 12.
Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Did you cut yourself on the airplane going to Chicago?
A: No. When I say, "To the best of my knowledge I didn't cut myself," I never noticed a cut, but I knew -- I assumed I was bleeding.
Q: When you say you assumed you were bleeding, now, you bled for a second, you wiped it off and you didn't notice any more blood from that point on. Correct?
A: I don't know if I bled for a second. I just know I saw a spot of blood and blood on my pinkie.
Q: So a spot of blood, wiped it off, and that was the end of your seeing blood that entire day and evening. Correct?
A: Evening for sure. For sure, yes.
Q: Did you see any blood that morning other than when you shaved?
A: As I said, I don't recall, but in that evening, yes, that's the only time I saw blood.
Q: When you wiped it off your pinkie?
A: Correct.
Q: Well, just to be real clear on this, the only -- let's talk about the entire day of June 12. Other than that one moment when you saw the blood on your pinkie, did you see any other blood on your body that day?
A: I can't recall in the morning.
Q: Can't recall?
A: If I saw blood in the morning or not.
Q: When you were doing what?
A: When I shave, I always bleed, so I can't recall in the morning--
Q: Bleed on the face. Correct?
A: Yeah. I mean, you know, it depends how bad it is. It's on my face
and you take it off your face, or my neck, because I got a couple of what I call areas that I bleed all the time or a lot when I shave.
Q: But you just don't remember?
A: Well, it's -- I would say the majority of the time I shave, I bleed.
Q: By the time you left the house, there would have been no more bleeding?
A: Correct.
Q: And from that point on until you saw the blood on your pinkie, you saw no blood. Correct?
A: I don't recall seeing any blood after that, yes.
Q: Now--One second. You testified yesterday that you called Paula
Barbieri around 10:00 o'clock p.m. to see if she was available to take you to the airport.
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you knew that Paula Barbieri was out of town.
A: Well, I assumed she was.
Q: In fact, she had told you that she was going to be either in Las Vegas or Arizona. Correct?
A: That's not correct.
Q: She told you that she was going to be out of town. Correct?
A: That's not correct.
Q: You said you assumed she out of town.
A: Yes.
Q: What was the basis of your assumption?
A: She told me she may be going of town.
Q: And you had tried to call her a number of times before 10:00 o'clock p.m. on June 12. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And at no time did you get in touch with her. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: So you assumed that she was out of town. Correct?
A: More than likely, yes.
Q: But you called her to see if she could pick you up?
A: Yes.
Q: In fact you had gone out earlier looking for her, hadn't you?
A: No.
Q: You had -- After the recital you went out in the car to see if she was home. Right?
A: No. I was going to, but I ended up not doing it.
Q: You had not spoken to Paula Barbieri all day on June 12. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: The last time you spoke to Paula Barbieri was when? Last time prior to June 12.
A: The night of June 11th.
Q: And at that time when you last saw her -- when you last spoke to her, was it in person or over the phone?
A: In person.
Q: Where were you?
A: Last--very last time I saw her? In front of her house.
Q: On Wilshire?
A: Yes.
Q: Does she live in a high-rise?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you drop her off there?
A: Yes.
Q: Then you went home to Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: What time was it?
A: Possibly around 11:00, maybe a little bit before 11:00.
Q: P.M.
A: P.M., yes.
Q: : Did you walk her up to her room?
A: No.
Q: And when she--What car did you go to--You went to an event that evening, didn't you?
A: Correct.
Q: Was that for the then First Lady of Israel?
A: It was actually for a hospital, but she was being honored for raising funds for a hospital in Israel.
Q: What was the name of that event?
A: I don't recall right now. Drawing a blank right now.
Q: Where was it?
A: At a private home in Bel Air, Beverly Hills, BelAir.
Q: Whose home?
A: I can't recall right now.
Q: When you dropped Paula Barbieri off at around 11:00 o'clock
from that event, did she tell you that she was leaving town the next day?
A: No
Q: Did she tell you that she may be leaving town?
A: At that point, no, but we had already discussed it.
Q: You had already discussed that she might be gone the next day.
A: Yes.
Q: And she told you that she might go to Las Vegas or Arizona?
A: Yes.
Q: Where in Arizona?
A: She didn't mention it.
Q: Did she tell you the purpose of her trip?
A: She may have, but I don't recall.
Q: What did she tell you?
A: I said, "She may have," so I don't recall.
Q: If she told you. Did she tell you she was going to the Mirage Hotel?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you she was going to attend a Michael Bolton concert?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you what hotels she might be found in?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a fight with her that evening?
A: No.
Q: You had a pleasant evening with her?
A: Very pleasant.
Q: There was no tension or conflict between the two of you.
A: Not at all.
Q: Did you discuss your plans for June 12, with her?
A: Discuss them, no.
Q: Did you tell her what you were doing?
A: For the most part, yes.
Q: And what did you tell her?
A: I was playing golf--she knew I was going to play golf and that Sydney had a recital.
Q: How did she know that you were going to play golf?
A: Because she--I always played golf, and I must have mentioned it,
but I always play golf.
Q: Did you tell her that you were going to Sydney's recital?
A: Yes. I'm sure I did at some point during that week. I don't know if we discussed it at all that night. As a matter of fact, I doubt if we discussed it that night.
Q: You had just gotten into town on Friday night, June 10. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: She picked you up at the airport. Correct?
A: Her and the limo driver, but I ended up going with her.
Q: You had two cars there?
A: Yes.
Q: Who was the limo driver?
A: I don't know.
Q: And you spent the evening of that Friday, June 10th, in your house or in her house?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you spend it together with her?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was Friday night. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And Saturday night after this event at the private residence, you
did not spend the evening with her. Is that correct?
A: Correct, as -- yeah, correct. I was...
Q: When you spent the evening with her on Friday night, you got up to play golf early on Saturday morning. Correct?
[
A: Yes.
Q: What time was your tee time?
A: You don't get a tee time there.
Q: What time did you start playing golf?
A: Probably a little before 7:00 or about 7:00.
Q: What time did you awaken on Saturday morning, June 11th?
A: Probably 5:00. Right around 5:00.
Q: Who did you play golf with on June 11th?
A: Allen Austin, Mike Melchiore, Bob Hoskins, and I believe Craig Baumgartner.
Q: Baumgartner.
A: Yes.
Q: Five of you altogether?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you shoot?
A: I don't know.
Q: What was your handicap in June of 1994?
A: I believe I was--I believe I was around a 12.
Q: Did you play for money?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you win?
A: I don't recall.
Q: On June 1lth?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You don't recall what you shot?
A: No.
Q: Did you shoot your handicap basically?
A: I don't know.
Q: Now, during--When you played golf on June 12, by the way, did you also play with the same people?
A: Correct.
Q: Did you also play for money?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you win?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What did you shoot?
A: I don't know.
Q: No recollection?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: There is a rule in golf: You cannot tee it up unless you play for money.
MR.PETROCELLI: That's why I don't play.
Q: What were the stakes you were playing for?
A: On--in this group?
Q: Yeah, Saturday and Sunday.
MR. BAKER: I don't know the relevance of that. I am going to instruct him not to answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you get checks from any of those people in your group on Saturday or Sunday?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you get cash from them after you played on Saturday?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Or Sunday?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you and Paula Barbieri have a discussion, from the time she picked you up Friday evening until the time you dropped her off on Saturday night at 11:00 o'clock p.m., about her going to the recital with you?
A: Never.
Q: Never came up?
A: Never came up.
Q: Did it come up in any prior conversations?
A: Never.
Q: Did you invite her to go with you?
A: No.
Q: Did she ask to go?
A: No.
Q: Why didn't you invite her?
A: Because I didn't invite her.
Q: She was your girlfriend then. Right?
A: True.
Q: You had a monogamous relationship with her at that time. Is that right?
A: With who?
Q: Paula.
A: Monogamous?
Q: Yeah. She was the only woman you were dating. Correct?
A: Yes, correct.
Q: How long had you been in a monogamous relationship with her as of June 11?
MR.BAKER: I assume you mean by "monogamous" that that was the only person he was dating? Because that's what you just said.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Only person you were romantically involved with.
MR. BAKER: Okay. Fine.
MR.PETROCELLI: Am I missing something, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: Sir, I don't think you've missed a hair on Mr. Simpson's face so far. You have redefined tedium.
MR. PETROCELLI: The truth is in the details.
Q: You may answer.
A: What was the question? I'm sorry.
Q: I forgot.
A: So did I.
(Pending question read as follows: Q. How long had you been in a monogamous relationship with her as of June 11?)
THE WITNESS: I'm a little confused by the question, but if--she's the only girl I had sex with from -- for probably the previous four weeks.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you say "girl," you mean girl or woman?
A: Woman, yes.
Q: Previous four to six weeks?
A: Yes. Not four to six weeks. Three to four weeks.
Q: I'm sorry.
A: Three to four weeks.
Q: Three to four weeks?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you tell Paula that this recital for Sydney was an important event to you?
A: No.
Q: Did you discuss it at all with her?
A: Not at all.
Q: Did you make a point of not discussing it with her?
A: No. I don't think I thought about it much.
Q: Did you ever invite Paula to an event where Nicole was?
A: When I wasn't with Nicole, I had no idea where she was gonna be, so not knowingly, no.
Q: That's what I meant: Knowingly invite Paula to an event where you knew Nicole was going to be. Did you ever do that?
A: Knowingly, no.
Q: Did you ever invite, for example, Paula to any family functions where Nicole would be?
A: No.
Q: You considered this recital for Sydney a family function. Correct?
A: Partially, yes. Yes.
Q: Partially? What do you mean by that?
A: I didn't think about it. I just wanted -- if Sydney would have been
the fifth thing, I would have been in and out of there in 10 minutes. That was what I was thinking: Getting in and out of there.
Q: Why were you thinking of just getting in and out of there?
A: Because I was tired, and I just wanted to go to it and get in and out of there.
Q: Did you know what order she was on the program?
A: No.
Q: What order--what number was she?
A: 30-something.
Q: Out of how many?
A: 30-something.
Q: Near the end?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you have--you said you had a pleasant time with Miss
Barbieri. Right?
A: Very pleasant.
Q: Did you and she discuss having children together?
A: In a way, yes.
Q: Explain that.
A: There was a big house, and we were talking about, you know, these people, how many kids you can put in a house that big.
Q: You mean -- I think I asked you. I don't remember your answer.
Whose house was it?
A: I don't recall.
Q: That's the house you're referring to. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: You and she were talking about having a houseful of kids?
A: It wasn't a serious conversation. It was just about the house, and we were feeling good and we were being very romantic, and we were just talking about filling a house up like that with kids.
Q: Did you have any romantic involvement with her that evening?
A: No, other than hugging and kissing, yes.
Q: Kissed her goodbye?
A: I kissed her all the time we were in that place.
Q: In the residence?
A: At the affair, yeah. It was very romantic.
Q: When you went back to Rockingham that evening--First of all, any
particular reason why you and she didn't spend the night together?
A: I was tired and I was going to get up early.
Q: Did you have an argument about that?
A: Not at all.
Q: An argument about your getting up early to play golf?
A: We didn't have an argument, no.
Q: A discussion?
A: No.
Q: No conversation about it?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you that she wished you didn't play golf the next morning?
A: No.
Q: Did she suggest that to you in any way?
A: No. She didn't, no.
Q: Who did?
A: Nobody did.
Q: Did you -- When you left Miss Barbieri that evening, you had no
sense that anything was wrong with your relationship. Right?
A: No.
Q: That's incorrect?
A: I think I said "No," didn't I?
Q: Meaning my statement was correct. Is that right?
A: Correct, yeah.
Q: And the next morning--When you got back to Rockingham that
evening, did you go to bed?
A: Yes.
Q: Right away?
A: Yes.
Q: And when did you get up? 5:30?
A: 5:00 or so the next day, 5:30 maybe.
Q: And you made breakfast for yourself?
A: No.
Q: Did you eat breakfast?
A: May have.
Q: Where?
A: At the club.
Q: What time did you leave your house?
A: I don't know.
Q: About what time?
A: 5:30, 6:00 o'clock 6:15 maybe. I don't know.
Q: That evening you were alone in the house. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you--
A: That evening?
Q: I'm sorry. That morning--Well, the evening before, on Saturday evening when you went to bed, you were alone in the house. Right?
MR.BAKER: When you say "the house," are you including Kato's and Arnelle's room? No?
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me clarify. Q: When you went to bed the evening of June 11, there was no one in your home that evening except for Kaelin in his guest house and Arnelle in hers. Right?
MR. BAKER: If she was there. I don t know--
THE WITNESS: I don't know if they were there.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You have no idea if they were there. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: They come and go as they please without having to go inside the
house. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: You got up at 5:00, 5:30, and what did you do?
A: Which day we talking about, Saturday or Sunday?
Q: Morning of the 12th.
A: 12th. I showered-- stretched showered, got out of the house.
Q: How long did you stretch?
A: I don't know. I normally stretch before I get out of bed, if you call it stretching.
Q: For how long?
A: I don't know.
Q: 5,10 minutes?
A: I don't know.
Q: 15 minutes?
A: I really don't know.
Q: No recollection?
A: No.
Q: And after you stretched, you took a shower?
A: Yes.
Q: And you put on clothes?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you shave after you showered?
A: I shaved in the shower.
Q: In the shower?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that where you usually shave?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you got out, did you put on a robe, or did you put on
clothing?
A: I probably just got dressed.
Q: And you put on royal blue golf pants?
A: I believe so.
Q: White Reeboks?
A: Maybe.
Q: What did you put on?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What socks did you wear?
A: White socks.
Q: And which shirt?
A: A golf shirt.
Q: What color?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you put a watch on?
A: I don't know.
Q: Then what did you do?
A: Went to the golf course.
Q: Just left your bedroom, went right downstairs and to the golf course?
A: That's correct.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, let's stop
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 1 of Volume III. The time is approximately 12:07, and we are off the record.
(Discussion held off the record.)
(At the hour of 12:07 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:10 p.m.)
(At the hour of 1:11 p.m., the deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 1:11 .This is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume III.
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, I noticed you are taking some notes on that paper in
front of you. Is that what that's for?
A: Pardon me?
Q: Are you taking notes there?
A: No, but I put some notes down here. I don't know if it's a note. It was a sort of a diagram.
MR. BAKER: He was diagramming a golf hole for me this morning before we started.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What's that paper there for?
A: I don't know. He -- your camera guy put it there.
Q: Okay. So that's just doodling. Right?
A: Well, I'm just--I designed a golf hole that he's going to play, a course he's going to play, and I was telling him about a hole that's on that golf course.
Q: Giving him an unfair advantage. Okay. You remember talking to Detectives Vannatter and Lange on June 13?
A: Yes.
Q: They were questioning you about your whereabouts and so forth?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, didn't you tell Detectives Vannatter and Lange on June 13 that you cut yourself on your left hand prior to leaving Chicago?
A: I may have said that, yes.
Q: You told them that. Correct?
A: I may have, yes.
Q: And you told them that because it was true. Correct?
A: I told them that because I saw blood and I assumed it came from
me, yes.
Q: And you thought you had cut yourself before leaving to Chicago
on the evening of June 12th. Correct?
A: I had assumed I had, yes.
Q: That's what you believed. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: That's what you believed when you told that to Vannatter and Lange. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: You were examined by Dr. Baden on June 17th. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And he examined you. He examined your left hand. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And didn't you tell Dr. Baden during that examination on June 17th that you cut yourself on your left hand before leaving for Chicago?
A: I don't recall saying that to him.
Q: May I ask you a question off the record?
MR. BAKER: Sure.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
MR. BAKER: Go ahead.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You're not saying you didn't say that to Dr. Baden. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Well, any communication he had with Dr. Baden is protected by the physician-patient privilege, and I am going to instruct him not to answer about anything he talked to Dr. Baden about.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You heard Dr. Baden testify to this in open court, didn't you?
MR.BAKER: You can answer what you heard Dr. Baden testify to.
THE WlTNESS: I heard him talk about that day, yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And you heard Dr. Baden testify that you told him that you had cut your hand in Chicago -- in Los Angeles on June 12 before leaving for Chicago. Correct?
A: That I may have thought I had, yeah. Yeah. Words to that effect. He didn't say exactly what you just said, but, yes, words to that effect. Yes.
Q: And you told that to Dr. Baden because you believed that was true
at the time. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Now, you also were examined on June 15th by Dr. Huizenga. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And he examined your left hand, among other things. Correct.?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And he testified at trial about this examination in your presence in
court. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you heard Dr. Huizenga state that when he examined you, he found seven separate abrasions on your left hand. Correct?
MR. BAKER: I'm not going to let him testify as to what he heard. That's irrelevant and immaterial to any issue in this case. You can ask him a question, but he is not going to answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you hear him so state?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that, OJ.
MR. PETROCELLI: On what ground?
MR. BAKER: On the ground it's irrelevant, as to what he heard in the trial, and that has nothing to do with any issue in this case. What was testified, maybe, but not what he heard.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I disagree.
MR. BAKER: Okay.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you hear Dr. Huizenga testify also that you had three cuts on your left hand?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that either.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did Dr. Huizenga, when he examined you, point out to you that you
had seven abrasions on your left hand?
A: No.
Q: Did he point out to you that you had three cuts on your left hand?
A: No.
Q: Did you see that you had seven abrasions on your left hand?
A: No.
Q: Did you see that you had three cuts on your left hand?
A: No.
Q: Do you deny that on June 15th you had seven abrasions on your left hand?
A: Uh-uh. If that's what he said. I don't have any personal knowledge.
Q: If that's what he said, you don't have any reason to believe he was
lying. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And if that's what he said, you would assume that that's true. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: When Dr. Huizenga said that you had three cuts to your left hand, you would have no reason to doubt that. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you would assume that he was telling the truth. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Now, you had these seven abrasions on your left hand before you went to Chicago. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. He has testified that he has no recollection of having seven abrasions, and now you've said that they exist because of your alleged foundation, and you better establish it from this witness before you make that fait accompli in your question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You had seven abrasions on your left hand before you went to Chicago on June 12. Correct?
A: I can't answer that.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I didn't notice seven abrasions at all when I left for Chicago.
Q: Did you look at your hand closely?
A: Not before I left, no.
Q: So you don't know one way or the other whether you had seven abrasions. Correct? Let me sharpen my question. You don't know one way or the other whether you had seven abrasions on your left hand before you went to Chicago on June 12th. Correct?
A: I don't know how to answer that. That day, no.
Q: Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you don't know one way or the other whether you had three or four cuts on your left hand before you went to Chicago. Correct?
A: I didn't see them.
Q: Are you saying you did not have those cuts on your hand?
A: I'm saying I didn't see any cuts on my hand.
Q: Are you confident that you did not have three or four cuts on your
left hand before you went to Chicago?
A: I'm confident that I did not see any cuts on my hand when I left for Chicago.
Q: Are you saying you could have had those cuts but not noticed them?
A: Anything is possible.
Q: Did you examine your hand for those cuts?
A: Not really, no.
Q: So you are not saying that you didn't have the cuts on your left hand. Correct?
A: I'm saying I did not see any cuts on my hand.
MR. BAKER: That's argumentative, "you are not saying." He has answered your question. Don't answer that, the last one.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You cannot say that you did not have the cuts on your left hand.
Correct?
A: I can say I did not see any cuts on my hand.
Q: My question is: Can you say one way or the other whether you had the cuts?
MR. BAKER: That's argumentative, and he has told you what his--what he has a recollection of and what he saw, and that's argumentative in view of what he has told you, and I'm not going to let him answer that. I instruct him not to answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Can you positively say that you did not have those cuts, three or four cuts on your left hand, before leaving to Chicago on June 12th?
A: I can positively say I did not see on June 12th, looking at my hand, any cuts.
Q: But you don't know whether you had them--
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: --is that correct?
MR. BAKER: You've asked it now 15--
MR. PETROCELLI: He's answering his question, not mine.
MR. BAKER: Because you don't like the answer doesn't mean he's not answering your question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
You said you did not see three or four cuts. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: On your left hand before going to Chicago on June 12. Right.
A: That's correct.
Q: Did you look closely at your left hand sufficient to know whether or not you would have such cuts?
A: I looked at my hand to see if there was a cut because I thought I was bleeding, and did not see any cuts.
Q: Did you examine the entire left hand?
A: I don't know. I looked at my hand. I think I can see my whole hand when I look at it.
Q: How long did you look at it?
A: I don't know.
Q: More than five seconds?
A: I don't know.
Q: What's your best estimate?
A: I don't have a best estimate.
Q: Did you look at each finger one by one?
A: Probably, yes.
Q: You put each finger up, examined it, then put the next finger up, examined it?
MR. BAKER: Don't--
THE WITNESS: I have no recollection of doing that, no.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you examine each finger one by one?
A: I looked at my hand, looking for a cut, and didn't see one.
Q: You looked at your hand as a whole, in other words?
A: Yeah.
Q: Just like you did on the video.
A: Yeah, just like this (Indicating).
Q: Did you turn it around various ways?
A: Probably, yes.
Q: Saw no--
MR. BAKER: Don't guess or speculate. If you don't know, say you don't know.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And you saw no cuts when you did that. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes.
Q: I am going to show you some photographs. 29 was the last one, right, the omitted exhibit?
MR. BAKER: Right.
MR.PETROCELLI: Exhibit 30 and Exhibit 31. I'm marking a series of photographs for the record. They were all part of the trial record in the criminal matter. Exhibit 32, Exhibit 33, Exhibit 34, and I will attach photocopies of these exhibits. Exhibit 35, Exhibit 36, Exhibit 37 and Exhibit 38.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibits 30 through 38 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, do you recognize these photographs as depicting your left hand and finger?
A: I assume so, yes.
Q: You saw these at the criminal trial?
A: Yes.
Q: Let's look at Exhibit 30 for a moment.
A: Yes.
Q: Do you see that's a picture of your left hand?
A: Yes.
Q: And you see the middle finger of your left hand?
A: Yes.
Q: You see some cuts there. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You see two?
A: Yes.
Q: You see one at or around the knuckle?
A: Yes.
Q: And one above the knuckle?
A: Yes.
Q: You had those cuts before you left for Chicago?
A: No.
Q: Correct?
A: No.
Q: Did you look at that part of your middle finger on your left hand to see if you had those cuts?
A: Yes.
Q: And you did not?
A: Correct.
Q: And you can positively so state?
A: Yes.
Q: Exhibit 31 shows a close-up of the same two cuts--
A: Yeah.
Q: -- and you can say you did not have them before going to Chicago?
A: Yes.
Q: Exhibit 32 shows--
MR. KELLY: Wait, wait. Dan if we could -- we need the exhibits just so--
MR. GELBLUM: Better go slowly.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let the lawyers get copies of your exhibits. Hold on.
MR. KELLY: Are we just marking them all at the same time?
MR.PETROCELLI: Yes, let's mark them all. (Discussion held off the record.)
MR. GELBLUM: For the record, I'm going to identify the exhibits by their trial exhibit numbers. Exhibit 30 was trial Exhibit 516. Exhibit 31, trial Exhibit 517. Exhibit 32, trial Exhibit 518-A. Exhibit 33, trial Exhibit 518-C. Exhibit 34,trial Exhibit 518-H. Exhibit 35, trial Exhibit 520. Exhibit 36 trial Exhibit 1249. Exhibits 37 and 48 18; are also part of trial Exhibit 1249.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. I showed you exhibits 30 and 31 already. Exhibit 32, Mr. Simpson, do you see some cuts on the back of your hand below your fingers?
A: No.
Q: I am pointing to an area where there appears to be some scabbing. Is that scabbing?
A: Yeah, I see what looks to be a tiny scab, yes.
Q: And underneath that as well. Right?
A: I guess so. I can't tell if that's a spot or a scab.
Q: Now, there is a sort of diagonal scab, and then there is a little circular one underneath it.
A: Yeah.
MR. BAKER: If that's a scab.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you receive cuts in these areas of your left hand prior to leaving Chicago?
A: No, and I wouldn't characterize these as cuts.
Q: Can you positively say that these marks do not -- are not the result of cuts that you received before leaving Chicago--leaving to Chicago? All my questions are directed to the evening of June 12 before you went to Chicago.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay? Can you positively say that these areas of your left hand that I am pointing to on this picture--
MR. KELLY: Dan, excuse me, you are going to have to be a little more specific--
MR. PETROCELLI: You can't tell from the xerox copies, so--
MR. KELLY: I am saying I think for the record, the video is not picking up any of the picture--
MR. PETROCELLI: I understand. That's why I'm trying to describe the area. Okay?
Q: I am pointing to what appears to me to be a scab, without you having to accept that characterization, a diagonal line. Do you see that?
A: That looks like a thin scab to me, too, yes. Doesn't look like a cut, though.
Q: And a little area below that, do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Little circular area. Now, do you recall receiving any marks or cuts or abrasions to your hand on June 12 before leaving for Chicago in the areas that we just described on Exhibit 32?
A: No, I don't recall.
Q: Can you positively say you did not have any cuts or abrasions on that part of your hand? Yes or no?
A: I can't positively say, no.
Q: The next one is--Do you want to look at these photographs?
MR. KELLY: Please.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: The next one is Exhibit 33, and a picture of your left hand. Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you see another scabbing on what appears to be your thumb?
A: Yes.
Q: You cut yourself or abraded yourself on your thumb in the area that I'm pointing to on Exhibit 33 prior to leaving for Chicago on June 12? A I can't say that, no.
Q: Can you positively say you didn't?
A: Positively say I didn't?
Q: Yes.
A: With this, no. You mean before June 12, any time before I took the plane? No, I can't say. I can't say.
Q: Before you left for Chicago on June 12.
A: No. No, I couldn't positively say.
Q: Do you remember having a cut on your hand on June 12th--
A: No, not at all.
Q: -- in that location on your thumb?
A: Not at all.
Q: Exhibit 34 shows the two cuts we saw before, Mr. Simpson, on the left knuckle and above the left knuckle?
MR. BAKER: Put it down so I can see it, because of the glare. Sorry.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I don't have to ask you about that again.
MR.BREWER: Just for the record, the reference was made to "knuckle," and I think we've been mistakenly using that interchangeably with "joint." Are you talking about--
MR. PETROCELLI: Joint.
MR. BAKER: It doesn't matter once we have a picture, I don't think.
MR. BREWER: Just for the record, though, just to make it clear--
MR. PETROCELLI: That's why I'm showing the pictures.
Q: Exhibit 35, you see a picture of your finger?
A: Yes.
Q: You see a cut on the side of that finger?
A: Yes.
Q: Pretty deep cut?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you receive that cut on the evening of June 12 before you went to Chicago?
A: No.
Q: Are you positive?
A: Positive.
MR. LEONARD: Was that 34, the last one?
MR. BAKER: 35.
MR. PETROCELLI: That one was 35.
MR. LEONARD: Okay.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I am showing you Exhibit 36.
A: Yes.
Q: You see the picture of your middle finger on your left hand?
A: Yes.
Q: And below the joint you see some scabbing.
A: No.
Q: What is that colored area?
A: Hair.
Q: Do you see any scabbing at all?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any injury to your --Did you have any cut to your middle finger below the joint before you left for Chicago on June 12?
A: No.
Q: Are you sure?
A: Positive.
Q: Exhibit 37, a shot of the same middle finger. Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: And again I am going to point to this area below the joint, as in the prior picture, and ask you whether in these darker colored areas if that shows a scabbing or a scarring or any
kind of cut--
A: No.
Q: --or abrasion.
A: No.
Q: And you didn't have one there before you went to Chicago?
A: No.
Q: Lastly, Exhibit 38 shows the side of what finger?
A: I don't know.
Q: Middle finger to your left hand?
A: I don't think so.
Q: What finger do you think that is?
A: I think it's this finger (Indicating).
Q: The fourth finger next--
MR. BAKER: Ring finger.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Ring finger.
A: Yes.
Q: And there is a cut on the side of that?
A: Yes, there appears to be a--yes. Yes.
Q: And did you have that cut before you left for Chicago?
A: No.
Q: You sure?
A: Positive.
MR. KELLY: Dan, do you have 37 and 38 there?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. I want to show them all to him in the next question.
MR. KELLY: Yeah, I just want to see them real quick.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson I am going to hand you back exhibits 30 to 38, and if you
would just look at the color photos. Can you, by referring to those pictures, tell me what cut or cuts on your left hand you were referring to when you talked to Detective Vannatter and Lange on June 13 when you say that you were bleeding before you went to Chicago on June 12th?
A: None of them.
Q: Are you positive?
A: Yes.
Q: When you were referring to bleeding--
MR. KELLY: I am sorry. Could we have the last question read back? I was looking at
(Question read as follows: Q. Mr. Simpson, I am going to hand you back exhibits 30 to 38, and if you would just look at the color photos. "Can you, by referring to those pictures, tell me what cut or cuts on your left hand you were referring to when you talked to Detectives Vannatter and Lange on June 13 when you say that you were bleeding before you went to Chicago on June 12th? ")
MR. KELLY: The answer?
MR. PETROCELLI: ''None."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What cuts were you referring to Detectives Vannatter and Lange when you said you were bleeding before you went to Chicago?
A: I was referring to the blood that I had seen.
Q: Can you point to the pictures where the blood was? You can just point out what exhibits you're using.
A: Point out?
MR. BAKER: It's 30 that he is looking at.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You are looking at 30 now, Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes. Yes. It was on my finger and it was on the side of my hand, my baby finger.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let the record--
THE WITNESS: It was on my fingernail a little bit and along the side of my baby finger.
MR.PETROCELLI: The pinkie on the left hand he is referring to on the outside of it.
Q: Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Up near the thumbnail--the fingernail?
A: Correct.
Q: And that is the only finger that you had in mind when you were referring to bleeding when you spoke to Detectives Vannatter and Lange. Is that right?
A: I wasn't really thinking about the finger at the time, but I was thinking
about the blood but that's what I was referring to.
MR. BAKER: That's the location he was thinking about.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And that is the only finger that you were thinking about when you were
telling Dr. Baden that you were bleeding before you went to Chicago. Is that right?
A: I wasn't thinking about any finger. I was thinking about I was bleeding that day.
Q: At the location of that finger?
A: Well, you know, I was just thinking about the blood. I wasn't thinking
about any specific finger. I don't know if he asked me what finger. I'm
not sure if he did or didn't.
Q: The blood you were thinking about was the blood located on that
finger. Right?
A: Yeah. On the counter and on that finger, yes.
Q: Now, where did you get all of the cuts that are shown on exhibits 30 to
38?
A: I'm not so sure of that, but I know it was after that day.
Q: Why do you know it was after June 12?
A: Because on June 13th the police and a police nurse and I looked at
the hand.
Q: Who looked at the hand?
A: Nurse Peratis and Detective Lange and a Detective Vannatter.
Q: And this was at the time you were being questioned?
A: Yes.
Q: And none of those cuts were on your hand?
MR. BAKER: Well, excluding the cut from the glass.
MR. PETROCELLI: Wait a second, Mr. Baker. He didn't say that. You can't-- that's really inappropriate. Mr. Leonard tells Mr. Baker. Mr. Baker tells the witness. Cross-examination on a crucial point.
THE WITNESS: It's a simple--
MR. PETROCELLI: It's highly inappropriate.
MR. BAKER: You can put anything you want on the record.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, Mr. Baker, in fairness it's not appropriate, and you know that, and if I did that, you'd jump all over me.
MR. BAKER: Not me. I'd never jump all over you, Mr. Petrocelli.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now you're telling me that when you and Nurse Peratis, is it?
A: That's correct.
Q: --and Detective Vannatter and Detective Lange--
A: Correct.
Q: --met on June 13 at the police department--
A: Correct.
Q: --and looked at your left hand--
A: Correct.
Q: --none of those cuts was there. Correct?
A: Except for the cut from the middle finger from the glass, obviously,
because that's the only reason Nurse Peratis was there, was to dress that
wound. There was none of these things on this other finger and stuff was not there, and they inspected my hand.
Q: Now, Mr. Simpson, you said yesterday in your testimony that there
was only one cut on the back side of your middle finger.
A: Correct.
Q: Now, looking at those photos, can you point out--Withdrawn. That was the cut you sustained in Chicago when you hit the glass or did something to that glass by pushing it aside. Do you remember?
A: That's correct.
Q: Now, point out to me on any one of those--
A: Right here (Indicating).
Q: --what cut you're referring to.
A: This one (Indicating).
MR. PETROCELLI: Let the record reflect that the witness on Exhibit 30 is
referring to the cut above the joint. Right?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Now looking at 31, you see two cuts, and you are only referring to the
lower one above the joint. Correct?
A: That's the only one I saw, yes.
Q: And that's the only one that Nurse Peratis dressed?
A: He cleaned it and he dressed it.
Q: Okay.
A: And that's the only one he cleaned and the only one he dressed.
Q: Did you tell Dr. Huizenga on June 13 that you only had one cut on your hand when you came back from Chicago, and it was the cut that you just
identified on exhibits 30 and 31?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell that to Dr. Baden on June 17?
A: No.
Q: Did you withhold that information from them?
MR. BAKER: That's argumentative. Don't answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's not meant to be argumentative.
Q: What I am asking you is if you made a decision in your mind not to
tell them that
A: Not to tell them what?
Q: That you only had one cut coming back from Chicago on your entire
left hand, and it was the one that you just pointed out on exhibits 30 and 31.
A: I didn't have to tell them. They were addressing my hand.They were
addressing whatever was on my hand. I didn't discuss it with them, what
came from where, certainly not with Huizenga.
Q: Now, but you were addressing to Drs. Huizenga and Baden how you
got some of these cuts, didn't you?
A: No.
Q: And that you got some of them before you went to Chicago. Right?
A: That's not correct.
Q: You told them about bleeding before you went to Chicago. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And you even told them how you thought you got those cuts. Right?
A: In Chicago?
Q: No. Before Chicago, at your house--
A: No, I didn't.
Q: --on the evening of June 12.
A: That's incorrect.
Q: You said nothing of the sort to them?
A: Exactly.
Q: Did you tell Drs. Baden or Huizenga that while preparing to go
to Chicago, at some point you went to the Bronco to get a phone and maybe
other material and you also did things around the house in the kitchen, and at some point you noticed some blood?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you tell them that you got cut in the Bronco?
A: No.
Q: And did you?
A: I don't know.
Q: Are you positive that you did not get cut in the Bronco?
A: I'm not positive either way.
Q: You're saying you might have gotten cut in the Bronco?
A: As you said earlier, anything is possible.
Q: I didn't say that. I think Mr. Baker said that.
MR. LEONARD: You did?
MR. BAKER: I didn't say that.
MR. PETROCELLI: You said that to me yesterday.
Q: Can you positively exclude cutting yourself in the Bronco and dripping blood in the Bronco?
A: Positively?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Can you positively exclude dripping blood on the driveway at the
Rockingham gate leading up to your front door?
A: Positively?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: And can you positively exclude dripping blood on your foyer in your
front entryway?
A: Positively?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Now, are you saying that you got some of the cuts that we have seen in
these photographs after you got back from Chicago?
A: Obviously, yes.
Q: When you say "obviously," I don't know what that means, but the answer is yes?
A: Obviously, yes.
Q: Why do you say "obviously"?
A: Because they weren't there when I came back from Chicago and was at the police station, and since I didn't leave town from that point until Wednesday when they took pictures of it, I obviously, you know, got it after I came back from Chicago.
Q: Tell me where you got the cut and how you got the cut above the joint on the middle finger that I'm pointing to on Exhibit 30 which is right below, you know, the fingernail.
A: I don't know.
Q: When you got that cut, did you notice you were bleeding at that location?
A: When my finger--my finger bled alot over the next few days as I was
changing dressings and things.
Q: You were changing dressings for the lower cut, on the joint. Correct?
A: Yes, but if you see pictures of the dressing, it was a complete dressing.
MR. BREWER: This isn't very clear. Can you designate which finger you're talking about? When you are talking about a finger, where on the finger you're talking about when you are changing the dressings? We have multiple fingers that are cut--
MR. BAKER: This is good. I like this cross stuff here.
MR. BREWER: Just be clear.
MR. PETROCELLI: We're talking about the middle finger of the left
hand as depicted on Exhibit 30 and Exhibit 31. And the wound that was dressed by Nurse Peratis was the one above the joint, the lower of the two. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: By the way, when that-- how long was that dressing on?
A: Which one?
Q: The one Peratis put on.
A: I don't know.
Q: Was it a Band-Aid?
A: Yeah, it was a big bandage.
Q: And did it also cover the--
MR. BAKER: Just a minute. You said "Band-Aid," he said yes, "big bandage." I don't know what that means.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What does it mean?
A: It was big. It was not just a normal Band-Aid. It was something that was
big. He actually wanted to splint it for some reason, and I wouldn't let him.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I didn't want it.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I didn't want it splinted.
Q: Did you want it to be cared for properly?
A: I didn't want it splinted. He dressed it, he cleaned it, and he put a bandage on it. I didn't want a splint on it.
Q: Did that bandage cover this upper part of your finger where we're seeing the second cut on Exhibit 30?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Now, did you change that dressing a few times yourself?
A: Once myself.
Q: Did anybody else change it for you?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: Dr. Huizenga.
Q: Who else?
A: I believe--I believe either Dr. Lee or Dr. Baden Friday, but that could have been Huizenga again.
Q: Now, when they--when you changed the dressing the first and only time, did you notice that there was a cut above the initial cut that was
dressed?
A: No.
Q: When Huizenga changed the dressing, did he mention it to you,
that cut?
A: He didn't mention it to me, but he was working on the hand at that
point.
Q: Did you see that cut, the top cut on the middle finger of Exhibit 30?
A: I don't recall.
Q: When Baden looked at your fingers on the 17th, did he notice that
upper cut on exhibits 30 or 31 on your middle finger?
A: When he did it when?
Q: 17th of June.
A: I'm sure he did.
Q: Did he mention it to you?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you see it?
A: I wasn't really paying attention to those guys.
Q: I will ask you again: How did you cut that--your finger on the upper
part?
A: I don't know.
Q: You have no idea?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember bleeding from that part of your finger as opposed
from the other cut on the finger?
A: I remember my hand bleeding, but not particularly where. I know
the big knuckle was bleeding at one point, but I can't tell you what else
as far as that finger's concerned.
Q: Now, we have been told that that's a joint. Are you referring to the
joint or the knuckle now? What are you referring to?
A: Referring to the finger.
Q: When you said you were bleeding from the knuckle, what did you mean? This joint here where I'm pointing (Indicating)?
A: Yes.
Q: That's the one that was dressed. Right?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Knuckle sandwich is here. It's the interphalangeal joint.
MR.PETROCELLI: Mr. Baker, I'm told, knows about the anatomy, so--
MR. LEONARD: Dr. Baker?
MR. PETROCELLI:--maybe he can help us out.
MR. KELLY: He knew about your bladder, Dan.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, you're telling us that no discussion of this upper cut on the
middle finger came up with Nurse Peratis, Detectives Vannatter and Lange,
even though they all examined your hand. Is that correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you're positive it wasn't there at that time. Correct?
A: I didn't see it there at that time.
Q: So you're not positive. Right?
A: Well, I was didn't see it, and I was looking at my hand just like they
were.
Q: And you didn't see that one?
A: Yes.
Q: And are you positive that the cut wasn't there when Huizenga examined you on the 15th?
A: I'm not positive about that, no.
Q: Are you positive it wasn't there when Baden examined you on the
17th?
A: No, I'm not positive about that.
Q: When did you receive that cut, top cut to your middle finger?
A: I don't know.
Q: Give me your best recollection.
A: I don't have a recollection of it.
Q: Zero?
A: Zero.
Q: What's your best recollection of how you cut it?
MR. BAKER: That's the fifth time. Don't answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, it's an important question.
MR. BAKER: I know it's cross-examination, but I think four is enough.
MR. PETROCELLI: The rule of four, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: Well, I don't know, but I think the rule is one or two, but I'm trying to give you as much leeway as I can, sure.
MR. PETROCELLI: I appreciate it. It's important.
Q: I am going to show you Exhibit 32 and let other counsel view it, and I am going to point to what you yourself indicated appeared to be some scabbing below the fingers. Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you were examined by Peratis and with Vannatter and Lange, did you have a cut or a mark or abrasion there where that scabbing is on Exhibit 32?
A: Did not see it at all.
Q: And what about when you -- with Huizenga on the 15th, did you see it then?
A: I don't recall seeing it, but I wasn't looking then.
Q: And on the 17th, did you see it then?
A: I wasn't paying attention on the 17th.
Q: When Baden looked at it.
A: I wasn't paying any attention on the 17th.
Q: How did you get that marking there on your hand?
A: I don't know.
Q: No recollection?
A: No.
Q: When did you get it?
A: I don't know.
Q: No recollection?
A: No.
Q: And did you bleed from that part of your hand during the week of the
13th. June 13th?
A: I don't recall bleeding from that part of my hand, no . I don't think that
would bleed, anyway.
Q: I am going to show you exhibit 33, and it shows a little marking or
scabbing on the thumb. Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: On the side of the thumb there?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, was that mark on your hand on June 13 when Nurse Peratis and
Detectives Vannatter and Lange met with you?
A: Did not see it, no.
Q: On the 15th when Huizenga looked at it?
A: Obviously.
Q: It was there?
A: I say obviously it was.
Q: Why?
A: Aren't these his pictures?
Q: I believe these--I don't want to make any representations to you. I don't know when they are. I really don't, anyway. Don't say "obviously" based on some ruler there. Just give me your best recollection.
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know.
A: No.
Q: And was this mark on your finger on the 17th--
A: No.
Q: --when you were with Baden?
A: I don't know.
Q: How did you get that mark on your thumb?
A: I don't know.
Q: No idea?
A: No.
Q: When did you get it?
A: I don't know.
Q: No idea?
A: No.
Q: On Exhibit 35 there is a wound on the side of your finger. Do you see
that?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Lateral aspect.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Lateral aspect, according to your lawyer. How did you get that?
A: I don't know.
Q: When did you get it?
A: I don't know.
Q: Was that wound on your finger when Nurse Peratis examined you in
the presence of Vannatter and Lange?
A: Definitely not.
Q: And you didn't see it then. Right?
A: And I looked, and I didn't see it then.
Q: That's the ring finger, you said?
A: Yes.
Q: Why did you look?
A: Because it was my ring finger and because it was so obvious to this
finger, and Peratis was moving my finger around to get the wrap on and to
do it, and there was nothing there.
Q: Was it there when Huizenga looked at it on the 15th?
A: I believe so.
Q: And you got it somewhere between the 13th and the 15th?
A: Yes.
Q: First of all, what did you say, if anything, about that wound on the 15th?
A: I don't think anything.
Q: Did he say anything to you?
A: I don't think so.
Q: When did you get that wound?
MR. BAKER: Other than what he has just testified to?
MR. PETROCELLI: He said between the 13th and the 15th.
Q: Yes, specifically.
A: I don't know specifically.
Q: How did you get it?
A: I don't know.
Q: No idea?
A: No.
Q: On any of these wounds and cuts, markings, abrasions, do you recall
feeling pain whenever they occurred?
A: No.
Q: On any of them?
A: No.
Q: Did you dress any of those cuts, wounds or bruises or abrasions the
week of the 13th, starting actually on the -- at the hotel in Chicago, other than the one that Peratis and you did subsequently?
A: I'm sorry?
Q: Did you dress any of the wounds
A: Other than the one that Peratis--
Q: Other than the one on your middle finger.
A: No.
Q: Had no other bandages or Band-Aids or dressings.
A: Correct.
Q: During that whole week?
A: Correct.
Q: Were you bleeding quite a bit that week?
MR. BAKER: I don't know what that means.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, were you bleeding from these various cuts and wounds and
markings that I've just showed you?
A: Obviously, yes.
Q: And when you were bleeding, what did you do to arrest the bleeding?
A: Well, I got a Band-Aid from the girl at the hotel.
Q: Initially. Correct?
A: Yes. And Peratis changed that.
Q: Right.
A: I changed it one day.
Q: Correct.
A: Then Huizenga changed it, and I don't think it bled after that.
Q: And what about the other cuts that I showed you, did you bleed
from those cuts?
A: I don't recall.
Q: During that week were you bleeding and dropping blood on the
ground or on surfaces?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know where the blood was coming from?
A: Yes.
Q: Where?
A: My middle finger.
Q: That was dressed?
A: Well, before it was dressed, yes.
Q: Before it was dressed.
A: Yes.
Q: But after it was dressed were you bleeding at all outside of the dressing?
A: After it was dressed the first time, it bled, yes.
Q: And were you dripping blood?
A: I don't know.
Q: What I am trying to find out is if you were dripping blood from any
place that week other than that one wound or cut--
A: Not that I know.
Q:--that was dressed.
A: Not that I know.
Q: Have you ever had a situation before, Mr. Simpson, where you had a
number of cuts on your hand and did not know how you got them?
A: Yes.
Q: That happens frequently to you?
A: In my life, yes.
Q: Did it happen frequently within the previous six months to June 12?
A: I wouldn't know.
Q: Well, did you ever notice your hand having a bunch of cuts on it that you didn't know where they came from within the six months--
MR. BAKER: I don't know what a "bunch of cuts" is.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Several or more.
MR. BAKER: "Several," is that two or three or more?
MR. PETROCELLI: Three or more.
MR. BAKER: All right.
THE WITNESS: As you pointed out, have I ever had it and not noticed it, and my answer was yes. So I've had it and not noticed it. I've seen scabs on my hand, and I don't ever remember bleeding or where the scabs came from, yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you ever seen cuts of the type that you saw in the photographs on your hand and not known how you got them>
MR. BAKER: Well, which ones?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Take that one on the side of the finger that looked pretty deep to me.
A: Yes.
Q: That happened to you before?
MR. BAKER: Well, the one on the side of the finger without your characterization.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: The lateral--
MR. BAKER: The lateral aspect of the third digit.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes, Exhibit 35. Did you ever have a cut like that on the side of your -- on any part of your hands or fingers and not know where it came from?
A: Yes.
Q: Happened often to you?
A: I can't say "often," but I've had cuts and things and I don't know
where it came from, yes.
Q: I'm not talking about football days. I'm talking about June -- January to June of 1994.
A: I don't recall.
Q: Now, when you played golf on the morning of the 12th and you
drove over to the golf course in what car?
A: On the 12th, the Bentley. I mean the Bronco. These B's.
Q: Bronco?
A: Yes.
Q: Where was the Bronco parked on the evening of the llth?
A: I believe on Ashford.
Q: Right before the mailbox?
A: Maybe across the street, but it could be either the mailbox or across
the street from the mailbox.
Q: You typically parked the Bronco on Ashford. Correct?
A: More than not, yes.
Q: If you didn't park it on Ashford you parked it in the driveway?
A: I parked it on Rockingham or--I rarely parked it in my driveway, even
though sometimes it was left inside the property, yes.
Q: Generally on Ashford. Correct?
A: Generally, yes.
Q: I am referring to the time frame of June 1994. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, was your--and your car was parked there when you went to play golf. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And the clubs were already in the car?
A: No.
Q: Where were they?
A: At the club.
Q: So you just got in your car and drove over there?
A: Yes.
Q: And you didn't have to take any equipment: Golf clubs, gloves or shoes
or anything. Right?
A: Right.
Q: Did you take anything with you?
A: I don't recall. I don't think so.
Q: What about your cell phone?
A: Yes, I always -- I don't know. Maybe I did, yes.
Q: Was it in your car?
A: I probably put it in my car, yes.
Q: From the night before?
A: Yes.
Q: You take it in every night?
A: No.
Q: You drove home the previous night in the Bentley. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: On the way to the Bronco, how long did it take you to get to the
Riviera Country Club from your house?
A: Four or five minutes.
Q: And did you make any phone calls?
A: No.
Q: Did you receive any phone calls?
A: No.
Q: What time did you arrive at the golf course?
A: About 6:15. Roughly.
Q: When you got there, what did you do?
A: Probably ate with the fellows.
MR. BAKER: I don't want you to do "probably," and he doesn't either. If you don't recall, just tell him you don't recall.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: By the way, the fellows are Allen Austin, Craig Baumgartner, Mike
Melchiore and Bob Hoskins?
A: Possibly.
Q: You had breakfast with those four people?
A: No. I said "possibly," yes.
Q: You don't remember?
A: No.
Q: Did you have breakfast?
A: Normally I would eat something, so I'm assuming that I did, so I go to the club every day and eat, normally.
Q: What did you eat there that morning?
A: I have no idea.
Q: When did you finish breakfast?
MR. BAKER: Assuming--
THE WITNESS: Assuming I had it, whatever time it was to tee off.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What time did you tee off?
A: Probably a little before :.
Q: Do you remember talking to anybody between : and : o'clock a.m.?
A: Yeah.
Q: Who?
A: Everybody who was around.
Q: Did you hit golf balls?
A: I don't know.
Q: You retrieved your clubs?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you make any phone calls in that time period?
A: No.
Q: You teed off at ?
A: I don't know. Maybe a little before :.
Q: Did you make any phone calls while you were playing golf?
A: No.
Q: Did you check your messages at all?
A: No.
Q: Did you get a message from Paula Barbieri?
A: No.
Q: Did you receive any message from her before you left?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Left the home, I assume?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When is the first time that you received a message from her? By "received," I mean you called in and found a message from her.
MR. BAKER: Retrieved a message from--
MR. PETROCELLI: Retrieved.
THE WITNESS: I don't think I ever did.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Not at all that day?
A: No.
Q: You didn't get any phone messages from her that day?
A: I don't believe I ever retrieved any messages from her that day.
Q: You had something called a Message Manager, didn't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you describe how that worked?
A: You push a button on my phone, and it go m to my Message Manager.
Q: Now, what phone are you referring to?
A: My cell phone.
Q: Just the cell phone?
A: Just the cell phone.
Q: The one that you used interchangeably between the Bronco and
the Bentley?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, what button was it that you pressed?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Could you do that from inside the house?
A: Yes.
Q: On the same--on any phone?
A: Yeah.
Q: You could go to any phone and press the button and get your messages. Is that right.
A: Yes.
Q: Why did you say the cell phone initially?
A: Because it was simpler from the cell phone.
Q: You had it on like speed dial or something?
A: Yeah, I guess so.
Q: Is that what you mean when you say "simpler"?
A: Yeah, I think it was just simpler from the cell phone.
Q: Now, if you wanted to retrieve the messages from any other phone, what would you do?
A: I'd call the number.
Q: What was that number?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Same number you have now?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: No, it's not the same cell phone number I have now, no.
Q: Is it the same Message Manager number?
A: I don't have one now.
Q: When did you cancel it?
A: I don't know.
Q: But you had it in June of . Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you had a habit of checking your messages regularly. Correct?
A: Semi-regularly I would say, yeah.
Q: Okay. When you checked your messages, you would hear messages
people left for you?
A: Yeah.
Q: Could you then erase them from the phone?
A: Yeah.
Q: Could you save them?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you have your cell phone with you on the golf course?
A: I don't recall if I took it out of the car or not.
Q: Did you get into an altercation with one of your golfing partners?
A: What is an "altercation"? You have to describe what an altercation is to me.
Q: Did you get into a heated exchange?
A: What does that mean?
MR. BAKER: Verbal exchange?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Verbal heated exchange with one or more members of your golfing group.
A: Yes.
Q: With whom?
A: Craig Baumgartner.
Q: What did you say to Craig in that heated exchange, and what did he say to you?
A: I can't tell you exactly, but words to the effect of, " I wasn't moving. You shouldn't have teed off until we got here," and a "screw you" from him to me and a "screw you" from me to him, and "Don't be in front of me when I teed off," and there was a little profanity.
Q: Wait. He was upset with you for moving when he teed off?
A: Yeah, he felt I was moving when he teed off, so he was mad and
started yelling something at me.
Q: What tee was that?
A: Second tee.
Q: Second tee?
A: Yes.
Q: What did he say to you? Was it after he hit the shot?
A: After he hit a very bad shot.
Q: Bad shot.
A: Yes.
Q: Did he hit another one?
A: No. I wouldn't let him.
Q: Did he ask you if he could hit again?
A: He didn't ask anybody. He said he was going to hit another one. It was like, "Screw you, you're not hitting another one," or words to that effect. I'm not giving you the exact words be cause I don't recall exact words, but that was essentially it.
Q: What did he then say to you?
A: I don't know. It was accusing of moving in his shot, you know.
Q: You were angry at him?
A: Not at that particular point wasn't, no.
Q: What happened next?
A: Then I hit a bad shot.
Q: Did you hit after he hit?
A: Yes.
Q: And then what happened?
A: And then I was pissed at him.
Q: Why?
A: Because I hit a bad shot, and Craig is a guy who tends to get in arguments on the golf course, and it was a beautiful morning, and I had just parred the first hole and I was up on all my bets, and I was
pissed off that I hit a bad shot.
Q: And what did you say to him.
A: "You're always doing this shit," and--words to that effect, and, you
know, "screw you" and words to that effect.
Q: Did you come to blows?
A: No. No. This is -- among our group, there's arguments regularly.
Q: Did you tell him that you were going to kick his white ass all over the golf course?
A: I might have told him I'd kick his ass if ! he did it again, but not his "white ass all over the golf course." No, I don't think those are words that I used.
Q: Were you ever physically able to carry that out?
A: I don't know.
Q: Is he a big guy?
A: Well, I never really expected to fight him. I haven't been in a fight in my adult life except once on a football field, so that was -- I never expected I would have to fight a friend, no.
Q: If he hit you, were you prepared to fight him?
MR. BAKER: Well, don't answer that. This
BY MR. PETROCELLI
Q: Were you prepared to fight him?
A: No.
Q: Were you physically able to fight him.
MR. BAKER: Well, that calls for speculation on the part of this witness, and I am not going to let him answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Were you physically able to defend yourself if he fought you?
MR. BAKER: That calls for speculation, too.
MR. PETROCELLI: How does it call for speculation?
MR. BAKER: You don't know if the guy is going to pop him right in the snot locker and knock him out, then you're not able to defend yourself. That is so vague and so irrelevant--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Were you physically fit enough to be able to carry on a fight with this guy? Yes or no?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What did you shoot that day?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you make up with him?
A: Yes.
Q: When?
A: By the next hole.
Q: You were angry for about one hole?
A: I wasn't even angry the whole hole.
MR. BAKER: Can I ask him a question? I want to know if Baumgartner moved while you teed off.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You said before, you got angrier at a later point when you made a bad shot.
A: Yes.
Q: You were angry at him then. Right?
A: Yes. But the anger was my shot, which was later than the argument we were having. Then I shot, and that was later. When I say "later," a few minutes later.
Q: Same hole. Right? A : Same hole, yes.
Q: Did you have any more disagreements with your golfing group that day?
A: No.
Q: What time did you finish playing golf?
A: 11:00 or so.
Q: What did you do then?
A: Ate lunch.
Q: With the same people?
A: Yeah.
Q: And what did you talk about over lunch?
A: Who knows.
Q: Did you talk about Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk about her during the golfing game?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk about Paula Barbieri during the golf or lunch?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a card game?
A: Yes.
Q: After lunch?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you talk about Nicole during the card game?
A: No.
Q: Or about Paula?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: What did you have for lunch?
A: I don't know.
Q: What time did you -- Did you play for money when you played poker?
A: Yeah.
Q: I don't know if you played poker. What l did you play?
A: Cards.
Q: What game?
A: Gin.
Q: Did you play for money?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you win?
A: Yes.
Q: How much?
A: I don't know.
Q: Were you able -- Did you deal the cards from time to time?
A: I was having trouble dealing that day.
Q: Were you able to shuffle the cards?
A: I was -- I could deal the cards. I was having trouble shuffling the
cards. I'm sorry.
Q: Did you not shuffle them, as a result?
A: I tried to a couple of times, and then I think Allen Austin did a couple of times.
Q: Shuffled for you?
A: Yes.
Q: But you dealt all the times. Right?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Who is Mesko?
A: I don't know.
Q: Caddy?
A: I don't know.
Q: Who was your caddy?
A: I can't walk on a golf course because of my knees, so I never take a caddy.
Q: You drive?
A: Yes.
Q: And you don't use a caddy?
A: No.
Q: Were you in a good mood that day?
A: Great mood.
Q: The whole time?
A: I was tired. but I was in a good mood the whole time other than that -- you know, the first two shots on the second hole.
Q: Did you make any phone calls during that l round of golf?
A: No.
Q: And during the luncheon did you make any phone calls?
A: No.
Q: And during the gin rummy game, did you-- A I may have, but I m not sure.
Q: What time did you leave there?
A: Around 1 o'clock, I believe.
Q: Did you take your clubs with you?
A: Yes.
Q: Were they taken to the car for you?
A: No.
Q: You hand-carried them yourself. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have any trouble playing golf that day?
MR. BAKER: I don't know what you mean by "trouble."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Physical difficulty swinging a golf club, playing the game.
A: You have to see my game and how I swing. Most people would say I do, but it's the way I play. It's the only way I can play because of my knees.
Q: You look a little awkward, you mean?
A: Yeah. I can't finish on my left side. There's a lot of things I can't do. So --
MR. BAKER: His swing has been described as an octopus falling out of a tree.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that true?
A: Yeah, I have a horrible swing.
Q: And it wasn't any different on this occasion. Correct?
A: I would say a little . Not only this occasion, but sadly when I play, when I travel a lot and play, you know, my body bothers me a little more, and I was being-- evident that I couldn't shuffle the cards, my body was bothering me a little more these two days.
Q: It wasn't hurting enough to prevent you from playing, though. Right?
A: There's very little that can keep me from playing.
Q: Or from going to Chicago to play the next morning. Correct?
A: Very little can keep me from playing golf.
Q: Have you ever felt pain before such that you didn't play, canceled
rounds and chose not to play?
A: Well, I stopped in the game, yes.
Q: Stopped playing?
A: Yes.
Q: That didn't happen on the 11th or 12th. Correct?
A: No. No.
Q: Let me show you some phone records. These were introduced as a -- What's the exhibit number, Peter? Do you know? These were subpoenaed in the criminal case, and they are for your cell phone. 613-3232, area code 310.
A: That could be it, yes.
Q: Take a look at 6-12.
A: Okay. I'm going to have a little trouble. I should have brought my
glasses.
MR.BAKER: Which one do you want him to look at?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: The first entry is 7:06 a.m.?
A: Yes.
Q: What does it show there? Call to whom.
A: I don't know.
Q: Let me see.
Q: It says number called message--"Location: Message Manager." Do
you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Then it shows a call at eight minutes. Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: And you picked up your message at that time?
A: No.
Q: Do you know what that entry is for?
A: No.
Q: No idea?
A: At the time I don't have any idea, but I'm assuming--no, you told me not to assume.
Q: Do you now know what it is?
A: I can only assume now what it is.
Q: Tell me.
A: I'm assuming it's a message from Paula.
Q: That was made to your Message Manager?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that what you're saying?
A: That's what it is.
Q: That's how it shows up on the bill?
A: Yes.
Q: How do you know? Tell me what tells you that she called you and you didn't pick up -- and that's not an entry reflecting your picking up your message?
A: Because there's no number there.
Q: No number where?
A: Here (Indicating).
Q: Okay. When--
MR. KELLY: I am sorry. We can't see where he's pointing.
MR. PETROCELLI: Here (Indicating). I pointed to the--
MR. BAKER: What?
MR.PETROCELLI: You said you can't either?
MR.BAKER: I couldn't see either where he was pointing. I'm not-- it's not relevant, but it's okay.
MR. PETROCELLI: Do you want to clarify?
MR. BAKER: No.
MR. PETROCELLI: He was pointing to the first line.
MR. LEONARD: I think these guys want to see it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When did you pick up--
MR. BAKER: Can we take a break? My partner's got to--
MR. PETROCELLI: You don't wan to say that on the record, do you?
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:17.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 2:40. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 39 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, I showed you the phone bill, which we are going to
mark as the next exhibit in order, and I will have some copies made at the break. Okay?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: I guess that's Exhibit 39. I will tell you, though, that there is some red handwritten notations on this copy which you should just disregard because they were made by my office. Okay? I'm trying to understand the way your phone system worked here. Do you see in this column with the abbreviation "FEAT," feature, I guess, there + is a "CF" there?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know what that feature is?
A: I think it's call forwarding.
Q: What does that mean?
A: I believe that means the call that's coming in is forwarded to my message center.
Q: A call that would be made to your cell phone?
A: Yes.
Q: And there is no answer, so it goes to a message center. Is that right?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Does this--does your cell phone bill pick up when you call your message center from your cell phone to check your messages?
A: I don't recall. If it did, you would see the phone, I think, on the phone thing here.
Q: What number would we see?
A: Whatever number that was dialed, I believe. I'm just guessing at
this point.
Q: If you were going to pick up your messages by calling your Message Manager, what number would appear in that column, if you made the call from your cell phone?
A: If I had to guess-- no, I can't guess, so I don't know. I don't know.
Q: Would there be a phone number you would dial?
A: You know, I don't pay my phone bills, so I don't know.
Q: But you use -- you dial the phone, though, to get your messages. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And what number did you dial?
A: I believe I dialed my phone number.
Q: To pick up your messages?
A: Yes.
Q: Your home phone number or your cell number?
A: My cell number.
Q: And if you were at the cell phone, you just hit speed dial, but if you were at another phone, you would just punch in your cell phone number. Is that right?
A: I think I would do just what--I would do just what anybody else
would call in to do, but once they called in, then you push a code number, I believe,and then the code puts you into your message center.
Q: Now, when did you pick up Miss Barbieri's message left to you at
7:06 a.m., eight-minute message?
A: I don't believe I ever did.
Q: Not the whole day?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: You never checked your messages that whole day?
A: You know, I know I was checking, but I l don't believe I ever checked my message.
Q: You know you were checking what?
A: My message machine at the house when I was at home, and it just seems impossible that I would
not have checked my cell phone, to me, but obviously, sitting here looking at this, I didn't.
Q: You could have received that message from a different phone, like
your home phone. Right?
A: Possibly, yes.
Q: Now, did you have an answering machine on at home?
A: Yes.
Q: : A normal answering machine or a part of this Message Manager system?
A: A normal answering machine.
Q: Where you have to click the button and hear your messages. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have another answering machine besides that one and besides this Message Manager system?
A: No.
Q: There were only two ways you could pick up your messages. Right.
A: Yes.
Q: Did Miss Barbieri leave you... Excuse me? Okay. Did Miss Barbieri
leave you a message on your message answering machine in your house?
A: No.
Q: That whole day?
A: No.
Q: Where was that machine then?
A: In my kitchen.
Q: Only one that you used?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you pick up your messages from a remote location?
A: No.
Q: Just in the kitchen. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Were there any messages for you that entire day on that answering machine?
A: Maybe one. I'm not sure. One that I know the machine picked up, because I was at home and I didn't pick it up and I heard the message being left.
Q: You can hear it while it's being left. Right?
A: That one, yes.
Q: Who was the message from?
A: Mike Haynes.
Q: That's the ex-football player?
A: Yes.
Q: What did he say?
A: He wanted to talk to me about going to a tournament for a company.
Q: Did you call him back?
A: No.
Q: That day?
A: No.
Q: That's the only message on that machine?
A: That's the only one I recall.
Q: When you came back the next day, on the 13th, back to Rockingham, did you pick up your messages--
A: No.
Q: --on that machine?
A: No.
Q: Did you check them?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if anybody picked them up for you?
A: No.
Q: Now, you called Miss Barbieri several times from your cell phone. Correct?
A: I tried to, yes.
Q: She had an L.A. local number, and she also had a 305 area code cell phone number. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: The cell phone number was the one she had from the Miami area.
Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you left her messages on each of those occasions. Correct?
A: I don't think so.
Q: When you called her local 470-3468 number and she wasn't home, did she have an answering machine there?
A: Yes.
Q: You could leave messages. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: When you dialed the cell phone and she didn't answer, that also triggered an answering machine. Right?
A: No.
Q: You sure of that?
A: Positive.
Q: Did you talk to her at all that day?
A: No.
Q: Let me show you, there is a call from your cell phone to the 305 number for the duration of 1 minute 29 seconds. This is Exhibit 39.
Do you see that entry there, the second entry?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, were you letting it ring that long?
A: No. I think once it stopped ringing, someone came on and said that the cell phone is off and whatever the hell, whatever the hell.
Q: What does that mean?
A: The cell phone is out of the area or it's not on or whatever they --
whatever that--whatever that code is, whatever that is.
Q: You mean when you call someone and they're not at their cell
phone?
A: Yeah, or they have it off.
Q: There is a minute 29.
A: Well, it obviously rang for a minute and 29 then.
Q: You were pretty anxious to get her, weren't you?
A: No.
Q: Not at all?
A: Not anxious. If I got her, I would have got her. If I didn't, I didn't.
Q: You called her one, two, three, four, five, six, seven -- eight times
from the cell phone. Do you see that, on that day?
A: Yes.
Q: You never made contact. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you also called her from your home phone. Right?
A: I believe so. I'm not sure.
Q: How many times from the home phone?
A: I don't know.
Q: How many messages did you leave her that day?
A: Two. I believe two.
Q: What did your messages say?
A: I believe earlier in the day I said I was -- I'd be at the house. "Give me a buzz. If you're in town or wherever you are, give me a buzz."
And then late that night, because I hadn't heard from her all day, the
message was--
Q: Message you left?
A: Message I left her was, ''Oh, so what is it? What's going on? What's
happening." Or words to that effect. "But anyway, give me a buzz, you know, and I'll be back this week."
Q: Now, when you left that message, you were acknowledging her prior message that she was splitting up with you. Right?
A: No,that's not correct.
Q: You were at her deposition when I took it. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you heard her testify that she gave -- left you a message early in the morning saying that she was breaking up with you. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you heard her testify that you left several messages that day. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever pick up that message of hers?
A: I don't believe so. I don't--I've never heard the message that she
said she was splitting up with me, no.
Q: Never.
A: Never.
Q: So when you left for Chicago that evening, you had no idea that she wanted to split up with you. Right?
A: No idea at all.
Q: And as far as you were concerned, everything was hunky-dory. Right?
A: Not necessarily, no.
Q: But this wasn't any different from the night before. Right?
A: That's a tough question to answer. I'm sorry. I don't know how to answer that question.
Q: Truthfully.
MR. BAKER: Well, don't-- wait a minute.
THE WITNESS: There is no answer then.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, you hadn't had any contact with her. You hadn't had any discord with her or disagreement or conflict with her.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You didn't--said you didn't pick up her message--
A: True.
Q: Where she wanted to split up with you, and so far as you knew,
things were the same as they were the
evening before. Correct?
A: As far as I knew, as far as I had any information of, that's correct.
Q: Well, did you have some other basis to believe things were not correct?
A: Correct.
Q: What was that?
A: She didn't call me.
Q: Was she supposed to call you?
A: Not necessarily, but normally if I leave a message for her, she does.
Q: So you thought maybe she was upset with you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you consider the possibility that maybe something could have
happened to her?
A: No.
Q: Maybe she was injured or in the hospital or something?
A: No.
Q: Why did you exclude those possibilities?
A: Because I'm a positive person.
Q: Other than that, any reason?
A: No.
Q: Now, even though you had called her a number of times and couldn't get through to her, you did not check your messages on your cell phone?
A: Checked it at my house. I may have tried to, but I didn't get through. Just like I wasn't getting through to her when I was trying to make these calls.
Q: Why didn't you get through?
A: Because when you drive on Sunset, you get through and then it cuts out, then you have to redial again.
Q: Well, when you got to your house. you +] could have checked your cell phone Message Manager. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you do so?
A: I -- it seemed to me that I should have, but I don't recall doing it, no.
Q: Now, you had said earlier that you were very lovey-dovey and romantic the night before. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So there wasn't any basis for you to think there was a problem. Right?
A: Incorrect.
Q: What was the basis?
A: I went to play golf.
Q: What did that have to do with anything?
A: You asked me if that's a basis. I went to play golf. I think she told you in her deposition what that had to do with everything.
Q: Yeah, but you didn't know what her deposition was going to be on the morning of June 12.
MR.BAKER: Don't answer that. That's argumentative.
MR. PETROCELLI: Responding to his statement.
Q: That's a fact. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Well, I think that it's a self-evident truth that he didn't know what she was going to testify to. He knew her attitude, but he didn't know what she was going to testify to.
BY MR. PETROCELLI
Q: Are you saying that just because you were going to play golf, that you knew she would be upset with you?
A: I suspected, when she didn't call me, that she was upset that I went to play golf, yes.
Q: But you didn't discuss it the night before?
A: Not at all.
Q: And she didn't show any upset towards you. Right?
A: No.
Q: And you play golf virtually every Saturday and Sunday. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And Paula was fully aware of that. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Is there anything else on the basis of which you might have suspected that she was upset with you other than the fact that you went to play golf?
A: I don't quite understand how you--
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Leonard, there is no point in your having to suggest answers to the witness.
MR. LEONARD: I'm not suggesting answers.
THE WITNESS: I didn't hear him. I didn't understand your question totally.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You said you suspected she might be upset with you because you went to play golf that morning.
A: Yes.
Q: And is there anything else that caused you to suspect that she might be upset with you?
A: No.
Q: When was the next time you spoke to Paula after you saw her on
Saturday night?
A: I believe -- I believe Monday night.
Q: How did you speak to her?
A: I think she was with my friends, some friends of mine, and they called me and she was there with them.
Q: Where?
A: They were in Vegas.
Q: Who were the friends?
A: Mark Packer.
Q: Where does he live? In New York?
A: Yes.
Q: Who else?
A: I don't know who else.
Q: His wife, Suzanne?
A: I don't -- unless Mark's got married and I wasn't invited. I don't he'd ever get married l again.
Q: Who else besides Mark Packer?
A: Just Mark.
Q: And they called you together, Paula and Mark?
A: I believe Paula was with Mark when I first spoke to Paula again, yes.
Q: In this conversation was there any discussion about her breaking up with you?
A: No.
Q: Or the message she left you?
A: No.
Q: What did you discuss? What was happening to you?
A: I don't think anything was happening to me.What I was feeling, maybe, and Paula--what I was feeling. Paula wanted to know if I wanted her there.
Q: And what did you say?
A: Not right away, no.
Q: Why did you say that?
A: Because I needed to spend time with my kids.
Q: You didn't see your kids until Wednesday. Right?
A: No, that's wrong..
Q: Tuesday night?
A: The next day.
Q: Tuesday. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: In the evening. Right?
A: No. It was about midday, I would imagine.
Q: You called--Let me ask you this: You called Nicole on June 12 also. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times?
A: Once, I believe.
Q: Are you unsure?
A: No, I'm not unsure.
Q: Are you positive?
A: Pretty positive, yes.
Q: Called her only one time?
A: Yes.
Q: What time?
A: I don't know. I was in my car, though.
Q: How do you know that.
A: Because--I was in my car because one of the purposes of calling
her was when I did get Paula, I was going to pick up Justin, and I needed to talk about the tickets, and I thought
maybe Justin would come and hang with me because she would be, you know -- the kids, the girls are getting dressed, you know, prettied up for the dance recital.
Q: And did you get through to her?
A: Yes.
Q: What car were you in?
A: The Bronco.
Q: What is your best estimate as to the time?
A: I don't know, but I'm sure it's on the phone thing there.
Q: What's your best estimate?
A: I'm sure it's on the phone thing. I don't know.
Q: You have no recollection without looking at the phone records?
A: After 1:00 o'clock, I would think.
Q: After 1:00?
A: Yes.
Q: And before when?
A: Before 5:00.
Q: Is that the best you can do without the phone records?
A: Yes.
Q: Where were you going?
A: I was on my way to Paula's, and when I didn't get her, I just turned on Barrington and called Nicole.
Q: Where were you coming from?
A: Golf course.
Q: So this was right after you left Riviera Country Club?
A: Yes.Yes.
Q: You headed over to Paula's?
A: I was going to--I was trying to call Paula. If she would have been
home, I would have gone to her house, but since I couldn't get through, I called Nicole.
Q: Wilshire and what? It's where Paula lives.
A: Wilshire and whatever. I don't know.
Q: In Westwood?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it east or west of the 405?
A: East.
Q: How far had you gotten to Paula's from Riviera?
A: Right about to Barrington.
Q: Barrington and what?
A: Sunset.
Q: Sunset?
A: Yes.
Q: And then she's not home,and you called Nicole?
A: Yeah.
Q: And she was home?
A: Yeah.
Q: She answered the phone?
A: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if she answered the phone or not.
Q: Did anybody else answer the phone?
A: I don't recall.
Q: And relate that discussion, what you said and what she said.
A: I can only be in general. I can't be specific, but I know it was basically about the tickets. She was -- either-- whoever -- someone was on the phone at the time. Then when she came on, it was about the tickets and what time they'd be there; and if Justin and Sydney was coming, did I get the other tickets-- I mean -- I'm sorry-- if Jason or Arnelle was coming, did I have the other tickets, what time they'd be there; if Jason or them was going, could they get there early, because we know it'd be sold out from previous experience, and you need to hold seats, and if--what was Justin doing. He could come hang out with me till the time. But I think he either was playing with his cousin or waiting for his cousin. And that was it.
Q: Cousin was at the house there?
A: I'm not sure. Either he was waiting for his cousin or his cousin was there.
Q: Who is his cousin?
A: Either Sean or Aaron.
Q: The son of whom.
A: Denise Armeni.
Q: Denise's son is Sean?
A: Yes.
Q: And Aaron is?
A: Aaron is Dominique's son.
Q: What did you call Dominique initially?
A: Minnie.
Q: Minnie?
A: Yes.
Q: Describe the tone that Nicole displayed.
A: Normal tone. Normal tone.
Q: Friendly conversation?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have a disagreement?
A: No.
Q: Any conflict?
A: Rarely with the kids. No.
Q: With Nicole, I mean.
A: No. Rarely about the kids. I'm sorry.
Q: Did she say she would save a seat for you?
A: We were discussing who would get there first, so I don't think saving a seat with me came up because I might have got there before then. So whoever got there first would try to save seats.
Q: Did you tell her you were going alone?
A: No.
Q: How many seats would she know to save for you? Did you tell her that?
A: No, but she just saved me one, as far as I know.
Q: If you got there first, how many seats would you save?
A: I think I pretty much told her I'd have a tough time saving seats because I'd be alone. It's tough to hold seats if you're alone.
Q: You knew her whole family was coming?
A: At that point, yes.
Q: How long did that call last?
A: I don't know.
Q: And were you cordial when you spoke?
A: Very much so.
Q: Did she ask you if Paula was coming?
A: She never, ever, ever asked me anything about Paula.
Q: And you didn't bring it up. Right?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell her that you wanted a seat next to the family?
A: No.
Q: Did that come up at all?
A: Not at all.
Q: Did the location of your seat come up at all?
A: No.
Q: How were you--Did you discuss with her how you were to receive the tickets if she was already there before you and sitting down?
A: No.We said we'd get there at 5:00, so I guess we just assumed we'd meet there at 5:00.
Q: Did you have to pay for the tickets?
A: I don't know. If she sent the bill to the office, I don't know.
Q: Did she discuss with you where Sydney was on the program?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a discussion how long you would be there?
A: No. I think I might have asked.
Q: What did she say?
A: She didn't know.
Q: Did you discuss what would happen after the recital?
A: No.
Q: Did she say that she was going out for dinner with the family?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask about that subject at all?
A: Not at all.
Q: Did you discuss making plans to go out afterwards?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell her what your plans were afterwards?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell her that you were going to Chicago?
A: No.
Q: Did you say anything else to her that you can remember?
A: No.
Q: And did she to you that you can remember?
A: No.
Q: I will show you this phone record. It's again Exhibit 39. Can you
find the call that you made from your cell phone?
A: Which call?
Q: To Nicole that we just talked about.
A: Is this -- what's her number? Because all of these calls I think is her phone number.
Q: What was her phone number?
A: I don't recall, but I think this 829 may have been her phone number. Brentwood is the only number-- 829-5636. I think that may have been her phone number. I may be wrong there, but I think that must be her phone number.
Q: You have trouble seeing close up?
A: Sometimes, yeah.
Q: You wear glasses?
A: I don't wear them. I read with them now since I've been in jail, yes.
Q: Did you wear glasses at all in 1994?
A: No.
Q: Or contacts?
A: I'm sorry. I may be looking at the wrong place here.
Q: Or contacts? A : No. I think I'm looking at the wrong place over here.You've got to tell me what her number is. Is that 829 her phone number?
Q: No
A: Okay.
Q: How about this one, 826-0403? Does it sound about right?
A: That could be. That could be it, yes.
MR. LEONARD: Is this marked?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. .
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And the time is what, Mr. Simpson? Can you tell there? 3:09?
A: I got to look--
MR. BAKER: That's the duration.
MR. PETROCELLI: What is the time there, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: It's sometime around 2:00. I can't tell you exactly.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's military time. Right?
MR. BAKER: Yeah. It's 2:18.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: About 2:18? You see that?
A: I don't see it. Show me.
MR. BAKER: This is the third number down, and the third number down here "14:18:48," which is 2:18:48--
MR. PETROCELLI: P.M.
MR. BAKER: P.M.
THE WITNESS: That could be it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that about right?
A: That's about right.
Q: Only call you made to Nicole that day. Correct?
A: Yes.
You said you left the golf course at about 1:00 and this is at 2-- What did you say, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: 2:18.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: 2:18. What did you do in that intervening hour and 18 minutes?
A: I think you're wrong. I said I left after 1:00. I wasn't sure. It could have been 1:00. l All the guys were there. So it would have been about that time that I left.
Q: What am I wrong about?
A: That I don't believe I left -- said that I left exactly at 1:00 o'clock. I know it was after 12:00, after 1:00, sometime.
Q: When did you leave?
A: After 12:00 or after 1:00.
Q: What's the best you can estimate?
A: That's the best I can estimate.
Q: Well, if you called at 2:18, do you think you left shortly before then?
A: Yes.
Q: You didn't go anywhere in between?
A: No.
Q: After you made that call, what did you do?
A: Went home.
Q: To Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: In your Bronco?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you stop anywhere?
A: No.
Q: Where did you park?
A: On... On Ashford, I believe, yes.
Q: And did you take anything into the house with you?
A: At that time, no.
Q: Okay. You went into the home?
A: Yes.
Q: Was the security system on?
A: I would believe so. I don't--I'm not sure if I remembered in the morning, but I would believe so.
Q: When you got in, did you check your messages to see if she had called you back?
A: I believe I looked at the machine to see if there was any messages.
Q: Were there any?
A: I don't recall. I don't think so. Not from her, there definitely wasn't, but I don't think so.
Q: And was anybody home?
A: No.
Q: What did you do?
A: I think I turned on the TV, grabbed a book and laid on the couch and--yeah, that's what I did.
Q: And you don't remember checking your cell phone machine. Right?
A: No.
Q: For messages.
A: No.
Q: Did you call anybody that afternoon?
A: I don't recall.
Q: How long did you stay on the couch?
A: I don't know. Kato came in, and I talked to him a little bit, and--actually I stayed on the l couch right up till a little before 5:00.
Q: From about 2:30 to 5:00?
A: Yeah, because I think I kind of fell asleep a little bit. I was watching--I think a basketball game was on, but I'm not totally sure about that at this point in time.
Q: Now, how did Kato get in the house?
A: I saw him in the front yard, and I have a -- right by my couch is a door, and he was there, stretching, I believe.
Q: By the "front yard," you mean that area where your Bentley was parked?
A: Yes.
Q:--and the garage door is, that area. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You could see out to that area from your family room?
A: No. From my kitchen.
Q: Is that where you were lying down?
A: Yes.
Q: In the kitchen?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you do when you saw Kato?
A: Said "Hey" and started talking to him.
Q: Did you go outside first?
A: No. I think he walked in.
Q: The door was open?
A: It was probably unlocked, yes.
Q: Which door was that?
A: The door that goes into my kitchen
Q: And he came in, and what did you guys do?
A: Talked.
Q: In the kitchen?
A: Yeah.
Q: What did you talk about?
A: Maybe a little basketball and girls.
Q: What about girls?
A: Just girls.
Q: Your girls?
A: I didn't have girls.
Q: What did you have?
A: A girlfriend.
Q: Paula?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you talk about Paula?
A: I believe so.
Q: And what did you talk about?
A: I think he asked me where was Paula.
Q: What did you say?
A: I didn't know.
Q: Was that the end of it?
A: I don't know totally, but I'm sure we talked about it a little more.
Q: What did you talk about Paula?
A: I think he was asking me where she was, and I told him, "I don't know. She's either out of town or she's hiding from me."
Q: Did you tell Kaelin that she was upset with you?
A: I may have, that I thought maybe she was. I didn't say she was upset with me, but she's probably pissed or something.
Q: Did you give him the reason why?
A: I don't think so, but I may have.
Q: Did you say because you played golf?
A: I know that was part of it.
Q: You told him that?
A: I believe so, but I'm not a hundred percent sure on that.
Q: Is that all you did--is that all you talked about concerning Paula?
A: Some other girls.
Q: What other girls?
A: There was a girl he thought I should meet.
Q: What is her name?
A: I don't know.
Q: Tracy?
A: Maybe.
Q: What did he say about her?
A: That she was a smart business girl and she was starting in business, and he had told her I should meet her and, "You really should talk to her She's" -- you know Kato. It was a pitch, I guess, and she was not like all the other Playboy girls, and she was
smart and, "You two would really like talking to each other."
Q: She was a Playboy girl?
A: I guess so, Playmate.
Q: Did you ask what she looked like?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ask her to go get -- did you ask Kaelin to get a picture of her?
A: I may have.
Q: And did he do so?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did he show you a picture of this woman that day?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Is her name Tracy Adele, A-d-e-l-e?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you call this person, Tracy?
A: He did.
Q: He called her from where?
A: Somewhere in my house, I think.
Q: Where did Tracy live then?
A: In L.A., I believe.
Q: And did you speak to Tracy?
A: Well, she was wasn't home, and I think he left-- I know he left a message to call me--or to call the house.
Q: Did you talk on her machine?
A: No.
Q: What was the message that he left Tracy?
A: I don't know.
Q: It was in your presence. Right?
A: I don't think so. It may have been, but I wasn't paying attention to what he was saying to her on the machine.
Q: From your hotel room-- from your house he made that call. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember whether he went out to get a magazine and came back to show it to you?
A: He may have.
Q: Where did he get it?
A: I didn't go. I was on the couch.
Q: Did he go to a store and come back?
A: I don't know.
Q: What happened after you spoke to Kaelin
A: He left, and I watched or napped or read or whatever I was doing.
Q: Do you know anyone in Bowie, Maryland?
A: No.
Q: Do you know anyone in Maryland?
A: No.
Q: Did you make a phone call to Maryland?
A: I made a phone call. I don't know if it was to Maryland, but I did make a phone call.
Q: To whom?
A: I think she called me.
Q: Who is "she"?
A: The girl that he was trying to tell me to talk to.
Q: This Tracy?
A: Yes.
Q: Oh, she did call back. Right?
A: She called and we started to talk, and I said, "You shouldn't get stuck with this phone bill. Give me your number. I'll call you back, so you won't have to pay the phone bill." She said, "That's all right." And I said, "No, let me do that," and I called her back.
Q: Was that a long-distance call?
A: Yes.
Q: Where was she calling from?
A: As I just told you, I don't know.
Q: What area code did you dial?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Was it across the country some place?
A: I have no idea where it was.
Q: What time was it?
A: I don't know.
Q: What did you and Tracy talk about?
A: Business, what she was talking about, business, things that she was trying to do, I believe living in L.A., what it was about, not being in the party scene, and essentially that.
Q: Did you make arrangements to see her?
A: No.
Q: To talk to her again?
A: I told her if she was in town, to let Kato know and maybe we can -- you know, come over and eat or we can have lunch or something.
Q: Had Kato met this woman before?
A: I assume so. I'm not supposed--I assume he did, yes.
Q: Why did you say let Kato know instead of let you know?
A: Because she was Kato's friend.
Q: Did Kato arrange women for you from time to time?
A: He tried--
MR. BAKER: I don't know what you mean by that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Find dates for you.
A: He never did, but he tried to.
Q: He never did in what sense? You didn't let him?
A: I was never interested.
Q: But you used to talk to them. Right?
A: Yeah.Yeah.
Q: He never succeeded in finding a successful match. Is that what you're saying?
A: No. He never succeeded in getting me to go out with any of the girls that he wanted me to go out with.
MR. BAKER: But that's a clever question. I'll give you a gold star for that one.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: If you didn't know where this person was calling you from, why were you concerned about the phone bill?
A: Because I knew she was out of town, and it was a long-distance call.
Q: You knew it was long distance. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: But you didn't know where?
A: I didn't know where.
Q: Okay. Was Kaelin there when you made that call?
A: No.
Q: Now, did you and Kaelin talk about your ex-wife Nicole?
A: At that time?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't think so.
Q: No discussion at all about her?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Did you tell Kaelin you were going to this recital?
A: Yeah.
Q: You made a special trip back to attend this recital. Right?
A: Mainly, yes.
Q: You were in the East. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And your friend Bender tried to talk you into staying in the East. Right?
A: I wish he had succeeded.
Q: Why is that?
A: Because then I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you.
Q: What did you tell him when he suggested that you stay in the East?
A: I told him I thought about it. I thought about it; I came close to staying, but I felt I couldn't miss Sydney's recital, and plus we had a thing Saturday night I could have taken Paula to. So thinking about it all, it was best just to come home to do that.
Q: Did you talk to Nicole about that decision?
A: No.
Q: When was the last time before the call you made to Nicole on the afternoon of June 12th that you had spoken to her before then?
A: Either Wednesday -- I believe Wednesday night. Could have been
Thursday night, but I'm pretty sure it was Wednesday night.
Q: Was that a telephone call?
A: Yes.
Q: And when was the last time you spoke to Nicole before she died?
A: Spoke with her?
Q: Yes.
A: Like a conversation or something?
Q: Yes.
A: 2:00 o'clock that day. 2 whatever,18, whatever you said that was.
Q: Last time you spoke to her?
A: Yeah, have a conversation with her, yes.
Q: Last time you saw her?
A: Was at the recital.
Q: The last time you spoke to her--Did you have a conversation with her at the recital?
A: No. No.
Q: Now, did you tell this Tracy or whoever this person was about Nicole?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: And did you tell Kaelin you were going to the recital?
A: Yeah.
Q: And did you talk about meeting up with Nicole there?
A: I don't think so, no.
Q: No discussion at all? A What do you mean, "meeting up with Nicole?"
Q: The interaction that you would have with Nicole, seeing her there and what that would be like?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you fall asleep at all that day?
MR. BAKER: We've been through this.
THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: How long did you sleep?
A: I don't know.
Q: When did you wake up?
A: Right time--right before it was time to go to the recital.
Q: When did Kaelin leave the house?
A: I don't know.
Q: You slept on the couch?
A: Yes.
Q: Got up around 4:45 and dressed. Right?
A: Roughly, yeah. Probably a little later than that, because I felt I was really late.
Q: Because you were sleeping?
A: I think I fell asleep. I mean, as I said, I was reading, I was watching TV and I dozed off--I evidently dozed off, yes.
Q: When you woke up, though, you immediately saw you were running late?
A: Yes.
Q: And then showered, changed and went?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were no--
A: Not a shower. I'm sorry.
Q: Excuse me?
A: I did not shower.
Q: You did not shower.
A: No.
Q: You changed and left.
A: Yes.
Q: And you drove the Bentley over to the recital?
A: Yes.
Q: And what time did you arrive at Paul Revere Junior High School?
A: I think just a little after 5:00.
Q: And when you went into the recital, had it already begun?
A: Yes.
Q: Was it dark?
A: I mean, dark not like a movie theater dark, no, but you can see, you know. If I was in the back and they were sitting in the front row and turned around, I would be able to see them, yes.
Q: Were they sitting in the front row?
A: No.
Q: Where were they sitting?
A: In the back row.
Q: "They" being whom.
A: The family.
Q: The Brown family?
A: Yeah, the Brown family and the Fishman family.
Q: Meaning Ron and Cora?
A: Yes.
Q: Did they have a child there, too?
A: I believe so. One daughter was dancing. I can't remember if the
other kids were there.
Q: Now, when you got to the entrance, how did you get your ticket to enter?
A: I just told the lady I need to--my ticket is inside.
Q: And did she let you in?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you go?
A: I went to the left of the auditorium and started walking down the left aisle, and at some point Justin and Aaron ran up and grabbed me.
Q: And what did you then do?
A: I followed them back over--back out to the lobby, over to the
right side of the theater and asked Nicole for my ticket.
Q: They saw you and came to you to tell you that you were going the
wrong way?
A: Yes.
Q: And they brought you over to the right side?
A: Yes.
Q: And you went over to Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: And asked for your ticket?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you say anything before that?
A: No.
Q: What did you say?
A: "I need the ticket."
Q: And what did she say?
A: "Oh, oh, here."
Q: Did she get up?
A: No.
Q: She handed it to you?
A: No. I think she handed it to Dominique, who handed it to me. I was there in the--they were in the middle of the row and I was at the end of the row, and it was standing room only.
Q: Now, when you were at the end of the row, you were talking across all those people to Nicole, who was in the middle?
A: Actually I was trying to lean behind them and got their attention,
and they just passed the thing over to me.
Q: You were standing up. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there a seat saved for you?
A: Yes, but it was on the other side.
Q: Other side of what?
A: The row.
Q: Of the aisle?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there any members of the family on that side?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: Denise, Lou, Judy.
Q: And was there a seat next to them for you?
A: No.
Q: Where was your seat?
A: My seat was in the back row, corner seat.
Q: How far from the family?
A: Justin was next to me. Justin and Aaron or Sydney, you know, they were up and gone. They were sitting in the two seats next to me. Then Nicole was seated in the fourth seat in, and Dominique was seated next to her. Then directly in front of me was Denise, with Cora Fishman sitting next to her. Then directly in front of them were
Lou Brown, Judy Brown and Ron Fishman.
Q: Were you in the same section as Nicole?
A: I was two seats from Nicole.
Q: Two seats from Nicole.
A: Yeah, with two seats between us for our kids.
Q: And they were sitting there the whole time?
A: No . As I told you, they were up and moving around.
Q: So the seats were largely empty?
A: Not largely empty. Sometimes they were all there, and I would have Justin sit in my lap.
Q: Then who was next to your left?
A: Either Aaron or Sydney.
Q: Who was to your right?
A: Nobody. An aisle. People were standing, because it was standing room only.
Q: You had an aisle seat.
A: Yes.
Q: Now, did you leave at some time during the recital?
A: Yes.
Q: What time did you leave?
A: I don't know.
Q: How long into the recital did you leave?
A: Roughly 19 dances.
Q: Did you have a program.
A: Yes.
Q: Did it show where your daughter was in the order?
A: Yes.
Q: Near the end, you said?
A: Yes.
Q: When you left, did you tell anyone where you were going?
A: No.
Q: Before you sat down, by the way, did you talk to anybody like who was outside?
A: No.
Q: See any friends?
A: People said hello to me and stuff, but nobody in particular.
Q: No conversation?
A: No.
Q: Why did you get up to leave?
A: Because I noticed that the fathers were giving the kid--as the kids
were finishing their dances, they'd be leaving, and they'd have these
bouquet of roses and things, and I had forgotten to get Sydney flowers.
Q: Did you ask Nicole whether she had any for you?
A: No.
Q: And you didn't tell anybody where you were going?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell them that you would be back?
A: No.
Q: And you got up and left?
A: Yes.
Q: And got in your car?
A: Yes.
Q: This is the Bentley. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you do?
A: I drove to a florist.
Q: Where?
A: On Gorham -- I believe it's Gorham. Gorham and San Vicente.
Q: And you bought some flowers there?
A: Yes.
Q: And no stops in between. Right?
A: No.
Q: What did you buy?
A: Roses, I believe.Yes.
Q: For Sydney?
A: For Sydney.
Q: Anybody else?
A: No.
Q: And you came back then?
A: Yes.
Q: And parked and went back in?
A: Yes.
Q: And sat in the same place?
A: Pretty much so, yes.
Q: Or a different place?
A: I think it was the same place.
Q: And were you carrying the roses in your hand?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you miss your daughter's performance?
A: No.
Q: And then she came on and performed at some point?
A: Yes.
Q: When did it end?
A: Whenever it ended. I don't know.
Q: What time was it?
A: I have no idea.
Q: What happened when it ended?
MR. BAKER: You mean the whole program or his daughter's dance?
MR.PETROCELLI: The whole program.
Q: Did you stay till the end?
A: No.
Q: After your daughter's performance was over, the program was still going on?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you get up to leave?
A: Yes.
Q: Did the rest of the family get up to leave?
A: Some did. Some didn't.
Q: Who got up?
A: Nicole and Dominique left. I think everybody but Judy and Lou.
Q: Did you get up before Nicole and Dominique?
A: No.
Q: They got up first?
A: Yes.
Q: And then after they got up and left, you got up and left. Right?
A: Yeah. I was standing--I stood up and stood at the entry, looking for Sydney.
Q: And did she come to you?
A: No, I didn't see her.
Q: Did you see her before the program was over?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: When did you see her?
A: Well, just minutes later, Ron Fishman had his camera and Justin was running around, and I said "Where's Sydney?" And then I saw Sydney walking to the side of the building, and I called her and she came up, and Ron Fishman was going to take some pictures, but he only had one shot left, and he took the shot and--
Q: You gave Sydney the flowers?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you pick her up?
A: I don't think so. No.
Q: And you asked Fishman to take a picture?
A: No. He had asked earlier, "Do you have a camera? You want to take a picture of the kids, you and Sydney?" This was earlier, and I said--
Q: When earlier?
A: When I first walked out. And I said "Sure," and then when I saw Sydney, which was a few minutes later, he took the picture.
Q: So when you got up to walk out, you spoke for a bit to Fishman?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you talk about?
A: He at that point was taking the pictures.
Q: That's about it. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: After the picture was taken, then what happened?
A: He was telling me about Faye Resnick.
Q : Where are you talking to him now at this point?
A: I think in the -- I think we were inside the -- you know, the lobby of the auditorium.
Q: Performance still going on?
A: I don't know.
Q: And where was Nicole and Dominique?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Did you ask?
A: Ask Ron Fishman?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Or ask anybody else.
A: No.
Q: Did you try to talk to Nicole?
A: I didn't see her.
Q: Not at all?
A: Not at all.
Q: So you were chatting with Fishman about Resnick?
A: Well, he was telling me. I was listening.
Q: What did he say?
A: He was saying, oh, boy, what's happening, what's all this stuff that was going on, basically, that Fishman was -- that Faye was in a rehab, and Christian and Nicole had an argument, and just that crap.
Q: What did you say?
A: For him I said, "Man, I told you, get a lawyer; get a shrink; get away from it."
Q: What else did you say?
A: That was just about it.
Q: When you said "get away from it," what did you mean? Get away from what?
A: He and his wife were having big problems, and this guy was going
wacko, and I was saying, "Get away from it." It was just eating at him.
Q: Did you say anything to him in reference to the Resnick discussion?
A: No.
Q: Did you comment at all about that?
A: I might have, but I don't recall what it was.
Q: How long did that conversation last?
A: A few minutes, I guess.
Q: Did you talk to any other friends there?
A: People came by and said "Hi" and "Hey, what's going on," and I think I took a picture or two with other kids, yes.
Q: Did you see any of your other friends there?
A: I've seen a lot of people I knew there, yes. I mean, these are all people--
Q: Can you name the people that spoke to you that you know?
A: The coach of my daughter's basketball team spoke to me. Just--
Q: What's his name?
A: Her name. I can't think of her name right now.
Q: Her name.
A: I helped coach the team with her, so -- but I can't think of her name now, and I apologize. But I think you guys have her name. Just, you know, I have a -- I have everybody talk to me, so...Garvey, a lady, spoke to me. Just people. I mean, just everybody that was there. I mean, these people I've seen for years, and they all speak and you say, "Hey, what's going on? Hi," blah,blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. "Sydney's beautiful. Your girl looked great," you know.
Q: What was your mood that evening, that time?
A: Normal.
Q: Normal?
A: Yeah.
Q: Were you upset about anything?
A: I might have been bothered by what Fishman was saying. It was sad, what he was saying.
Q: About his own personal problems with his wife?
A: About the whole thing. About all of it.
Q: About what?
A: About Faye Resnick having to be put in a rehab, Nicole not telling
Christian but telling her ex-husband. I mean, it's not--I felt bad for him. It was not nice stuff to hear.
Q: Other than that, were you feeling normal?
A: Yes.
Q: And then what did you do after you spoke to Fishman? Did you
leave?
A: No. I walked outside and was talking with Lou Brown, and I think Ron was joining us and, you know, the kids were running around.
Q: You struck up a conversation with Lou?
A: I don't know if I struck up a conversation with Lou or Lou struck up a conversation with me, but we were all--
Q: What did you talk about.
A: Just all kind of crap, whatever was happening, what's going on, blah, blah, blah, whatever this and that.
Q: Did you and he talk about Nicole?
A: I don't think so. I think Judy at one point, when she was worried about Nicole or where they were or if they were going to dinner, at that point Lou and I was teasing--I was teasing Lou about Nicole, about avoiding Nicole.
Q: That you were trying to avoid Nicole?
A: That's why I wasn't going to dinner, yes.
Q: Did they talk to you about going to dinner?
A: Judy was running around really agitated, "Where's Nicole? I thought we were going to dinner. Has anybody seen Nicole?" So she at this point was asking various people where was Nicole, and I said, "I thought we were going to dinner. I guess we're going to dinner." And at one point I think Nicole was beginning to drive up,and she said to me--
Q: Who?
A: --words to the effect--Juditha--words to the effect, and it was--
it would have been a question at the end, "You're not going to dinner with us?" or "Are you going to dinner with us?" or something like that.
And I said, "Oh, no," and then Lou and I started teasing about it, and
that's what you saw on the video when you saw Lou and I laughing as we were walking over there and stuff. That's what we were laughing at. We were talking about women.
Q: Did Juditha invite you to dinner?
A: No. I think it was more of a question than anything. She was just talking about dinner, but I don't think it was her place to invite me, but that's neither here nor there.
Q: Did Nicole invite you?
A: No.
Q: Did anyone invite you?
A: No.
Q: Was there some tension between Nicole and you?
A: That day, no, not at all. Not for me, anyway, but maybe from her.
Q: Do you believe that she had some tension towards you then that evening?
MR. BAKER: How would you know? I mean,that calls for pure speculation.
MR. PETROCELLI: He knew this woman for 17 years. Q: You could tell.
MR. BAKER: I don't--
THE WITNESS: She didn't give me anything negative. She didn't exude anything negative towards me, no.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You felt everything was normal between the two of you for that
evening?
A: Yes. For that evening, yes.
Q: You didn't feel that she was ignoring you or avoiding you?
A: No, not at all.
Q: You didn't feel that she was making a point of not being polite or
pleasant with you?
A: I don't think she made a point not to be polite at all.
Q: Do you think she was polite and pleasant towards you?
A: I just did not pay any attention to it, so I don't know. I know I made a point to avoid her.
Q: Why?
A: Because I had been avoiding her.
Q: Why?
A: Because I didn't want any hassles.
MR.PETROCELLI: We're going to stop here because he has to change the tape.
THE WlTNESS: Yeah.
THE VlDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 2 of Volume III. The time is approximately 3:31, and we are off the record.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 3:57. This is the beginning of tape No. 3 of Volume III.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 40 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Off the record I marked as Exhibit 40 your Rockingham phone bill for the month of June 1994. 476-4619 was your phone number. Correct?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: In June of 1994. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know whether your phone bills showed local phone calls
to Nicole?
A: I don't--no.
Q: No?
A: I don't think so, but I don't know.
Q: Now, back to the recital for a moment. There was a break during the performance, right, an intermission?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You were there during that intermission. Right?
A: I don't recall if there was a break. If there was, I must--if it was before the nineteenth or so dance, I would have been there, yes.
Q: Did you sit in the same seat all the time that you were sitting there?
A: Yes.
Q: During the break you sat in the-- you stood in the middle of the door and stared at Nicole. Right?
MR. BAKER: Wait. There is no foundation for that. I am going to instruct him not to answer. He doesn't even know that there was a break.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You were standing in the doorway staring at Nicole at some point during this recital. Is that true?
A: No, that's not true.
Q: In fact you were staring at her quite a bit during the recital, weren't you?
A: No, that's not true.
Q: And you were upset with her. Right?
A: No.
Q: There was tension between the two of you. Right?
A: I didn't think so, no.
Q: You felt tension. Right?
A: No.
Q: You were not--You were sitting at some point about three or four rows behind her. Correct?
A: That would have been impossible.
Q: Why is that?
A: Because she was sitting in the last row of the auditorium the whole time.
Q: The entire time?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were staring at her, weren't you?
A: No.
Q: Have you spoken to anybody who agrees with you that Nicole was sitting in the back row?
A: I don't know what that means. I'm sorry.
Q: Have you spoken to anybody about where Nicole was sitting at that recital?
A: No.
Q: Have you spoken to someone who said to you that she was sitting in the last row the entire time?
A: No.
Q: There were three sections of seats. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And Nicole was sitting in the middle section. Correct?
A: Wrong.
Q: What section?
A: The right side section.
Q: And there was a middle section and a left section. Right?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And you're saying that she was sitting in the last row of the right
section the entire time?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were sitting on the right seat of that last row two seats from her?
A: Yes.
Q: So you were the farthest corner seat. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: That's the only seat you occupied?
A: Yes.
Q: And the only seat you saw Nicole occupy was next to you, three seats away to your left. Is that right?
A: She may have moved over once or twice, but basically, yes.
Q: Now, when you were speaking to Ron Fishman, he was telling you that he was extremely upset with Nicole. Right?
A: No.
Q: He told you that he had just discovered that his wife was having an affair with a young African-American man. Is that right?
A: No.
Q: He didn't mention anything of the sort to you?
A: Correct.
Q: Did you hear that from him at a prior time?
A: No.
Q: At any time?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you that his wife was having an affair and that he had just found out?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you that Nicole was helping to cover up his wife's whereabouts?
A: No.
Q: Nothing of the sort ever occurred between you and Fishman, no such conversation?
A: No such conversation.
Q: Now, wasn't it unusual for you to not go to dinner with the family?
MR. BAKER: If there is a foundation for usualness-- HE WITNESS: What does usual mean?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You went to a function with your children and their mother and their grandparents, and you had time to go to dinner, didn't you?
A: Yes.
Q: And didn't you feel it was unusual that you weren't being invited to attend dinner with the family?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: I felt if I wanted to go, I would have gone, and Nicole was--would have been the only one that would have had any say, and it wouldn't have bothered her if I went.
Q: You felt you had the right to invite yourself?
A: Yes.
Q: And at that moment in time you felt that had you invited yourself, that it would not have bothered Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that what your testimony is?
A: Yes.
Q: But you chose not to.
A: Yes.
Q: For what reason?
A: I didn't want to be there.
Q: You said you wanted to avoid Nicole. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And that's why you didn't go. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you don't believe Nicole was trying to avoid you. Right?
A: No.
Q: Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Did you go directly home from the recital? Let me back up.
After you were chatting with Lou Brown, as you previously described, what did you then do?
A: Said goodbye to the family and went to my car and drove home.
Q: Did you ever see Nicole to say goodbye to her?
A: No.
Q: Did you see her?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you see her?
A: When they drove up in the car.
Q: Whose car?
A: Her car.
Q: With Denise in it?
A: No.
Q: Who was in it?
A: Sydney.
Q: Just Sydney and Nicole?
A: Nicole might have been alone. Sydney might have been in Dominique's car.
Q: Is this after you had given the flowers to Sydney, had your picture taken and so forth?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did she drive up near you?
A: No. They drove up near the front, and we all walked towards the driveway in the front of the, you know, the area.
Q: When you saw her drive up, she stopped the vehicle?
A: Yes.
Q: What did she do?
A: I don't know. I wasn't watching her. I was talking to the family, saying goodbye to the family.
Q: Did you go over to say goodbye to her?
A: No.
Q: Then you left.
A: Yes.
Q: That's the last time you saw Nicole?
A: Yeah.
Q: In the car.
A: Yeah.
Q: And she was sitting down?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: In the front seat?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you see her get out of the car?
A: No.
Q: What was she wearing that evening?
A: I don't recall. I think a blue dress.
Q: Was it a long dress or short dress or a medium dress or what?
A: Probably medium short.
Q: And did she look nice?
A: She always looks great.
Q: Can you tell me a little bit more about her appearance that evening, what she was wearing and so forth?
A: No.
Q: A single dress outfit
A: Yes.
Q: Would you characterize it as a short dress?
A: Yeah.
Q: Above the knees?
A: I would think so, yes. Or at the knees. I don't know.
Q: How far above the knees?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did she have any jewelry on?
A: I really didn't look at her, so I couldn't tell you. I didn't really stare to see what jewelry she had on or anything. I didn't look at her that closely.
Q: Was her dress a black dress, Mr. Simpson?
A: I thought it was blue.
Q: Short sleeves?
A: Yes.
Q: Or were there straps?
A: I think they were straps.
Q: Low-cut dress?
A: Maybe.
Q: What kind of shoes did she have on?
A: I didn't look to see.
Q: Did she have any hosiery on?
A: I would just--no, I don't know. I would say probably not.
Q: And you noticed no jewelry?
A: I didn't really look at her to see what she had on really.
Q: How was her hair fixed?
A: I don't recall. Like it always is.
Q: Which was what?
A: Regular.
Q: Did she have any hairpieces on it?
A: I didn't really look hard to see.
Q: Bows or ribbons or anything.
A: I didn't look to see.
Q: When you left there, you drove in your Bentley straight to Rockingham?
A: Yeah.
Q: When you got to Rockingham, what did you do?
A: I may have gone to the restroom
Q: Let me back up. Where did you park your car?
A: I pulled inside.
Q: In the Ashford entrance. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And where you parked it is where the Bentley was last parked that evening. Right?
A: Well, the same area, yeah.
Q: In other words, you didn't drive it again. Is that correct?
A: That's incorrect.
Q: Okay. So you parked the Bentley in the driveway?
A: Yeah, wherever, the parking area.
Q: Got out of the Bentley?
A: Yeah.
Q: And then what did you do?
A: I went in my house.
Q: And you were alone. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you entered the front door?
A: Yeah. I believe so.
Q: Was the alarm on?
A: I don't recall.
Q: And what did you do then?
A: I know--I may have gone to the restroom. I was going to go to Paula's, and I believe Kato came in.
Q: What time is it now when you arrived at the house?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What's your best estimate of the time?
A: 7:00 o'clock maybe. I could be wrong. Could be 6:00 o'clock. Whatever length of time it took for the affair to end, and I was three or four minutes away from my house.
Q: No stops in between?
A: No.
Q: When you got into the house-- Withdrawn. Did you make any calls from the Bentley on the way home?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a phone in that car?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: Where was your cell phone?
A: Probably in the Bronco.
Q: That was parked out on Ashford?
A: Yes.
Q: And then when you went inside
A: No--yes, yes, I believe Ashford, yes.
Q: That's what you previously said.
A: Yes.
Q: When you went inside, what did you then do?
A: At some point Kato came in. I know I was planning--getting ready to go to Paula's.
Q: Still dressed in the clothing you wore to the recital?
A: Yes. And I was going to go to Paula's. I believe I put a call in to
Paula's, but Kato came and--and Kato came, and then Kato and I just
started talking.
Q: Where?
A: I think--I'm not sure, but I think we 're still in the kitchen,but we could have been in my TV room.
Q: What number did you call for Paula?
A: Probably her home number.
Q: Did you call the 305 number also?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You don't remember?
A: No.
Q: And what did Kaelin and you talk about?
A: The game--
Q: What game?
A: Whatever game was on that day.
Q: This was in your family room.
A: There or the kitchen. I don't remember what place. The game. He
asked me about the recital. I think I talked--told him I had spoken to his friend who had called, and just boy talk.
Q: What does that mean?
A: Most of the time when boys talk, they talk about girls.
Q: You were talking about your having called this woman?
A: Yeah. I told him I had spoken with her, and she was very nice.
Q: What did you talk about concerning the recital?
A: Oh, that Sydney was really something to see.
Q: Was that it?
A: Yeah. He may have said something about Nicole.
Q: What did he say?
A: I don't remember. He asked me how was Nicole, and I said "She was gorgeous," and we talked about women, you know. I may have told him a little about what was going on. I may have told him a little bit about what was going on with these girls. I'm not sure.
Q: What girls?
A: Cora, Faye, Nicole.
Q: What did you say in that regard?
A: I don't know. Something--I'm not sure, but I could have spoken to him about Cora and the women.
Q: What did you say about Nicole?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You have no recollection at all?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell Cora--Excuse me. Did you tell Kaelin that you were upset with Nicole's attire?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell him that you were upset that [l her dress was too short?
A: No. I may have made a comment about women, these girls, in connection with the Tracy Adele being a businesswoman and these other girls relying on their sex appeal, wearing short skirts and stuff, and what are they gonna do when they get older, words to that effect.
Q: When they're grandmas?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you make that comment?
A: It wasn't short skirts I think it was more tight than short.
Q: Tight skirts?
A: Yeah.
Q: Nicole had on a tight skirt that night. Right?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell Kaelin that Nicole was wearing a black miniskirt?
A: I don't think she was.
Q: Did you tell Kaelin that?
A: I wouldn't have told him that if she didn't wear that.
Q: In reference to Nicole, did you say to Kaelin, "What is she going to wear when she's a grandma? Is she going to wear those dresses when she's a grandma?"
A: I don't think quite the way you said it. I may have referred to "these girls," speaking of the group as in general, when they get older--"They ain't doing nothing now. What are they gonna do when they get to be grandmas? I can see them when they're grandmas." Because I have said this many times: "I can see them when they're grandmothers," even to Nicole, "walking around with these tight short skirts," and we used to laugh about it.
Q: By your actions and your demeanor and your comments to Kaelin, you were expressing that you were upset with the way Nicole was dressed?
A: Not at all.
Q: Is that right?
A: Not at all.
Q: You were expressing that you were upset that she would not let you see the kids. Correct?
A: I don't think so, not talking about her dresses. About seeing the kids, no. I don't think Nicole would ever keep me from seeing my kids, no.
Q: Didn't you tell Kaelin that you were upset that she wasn't letting you see the kids that night?
A: I don't think I said to Kato I was "upset," using your words. I don't think I used that word at all.
Q: Did you use a word that means the same?
A: I don't think so at all.
Q: Did you tell him that you were unhappy or upset or disappointed
that you were not invited to dinner and that you were not included in this family outing?
A: Not at all.
Q: You said no such thing. Is that right?
A: Exactly.
Q: Did you tell him that you wanted to spend time with the children this evening?
A: No.
Q: How did you get into a discussion with Kaelin about Nicole?
A: We were talking about women, and he was asking about the recital.
Q: Did you tell Kaelin that you were pissed off towards Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Pissed off at all?
A: No.
Q: Were you?
A: No.
Q: Were you feeling upset or angry at all?
A: No.
Q: Were you feeling depressed?
A: No.
Q: Unhappy?
A: No.
Q: None of those feelings?
A: No.
Q: Were you feeling upbeat?
A: I think I was tired.
Q: How would you describe your mood and demeanor when you were talking to Kaelin?
A: Kicked back, tired, laid back.
Q: Not upset about anything.
A: No.
Q: Did you tell Kaelin what Fishman said?
A: I may have. I think--I may have.
Q: Can you think of anything else that you and Kaelin discussed?
A: No.
Q: You were still in the clothing from your recital. Right.
A: Yes.
Q: What did you then do?
A: I changed.
Q: What did Kaelin do?
A: I don't know.
Q: By the way, how did he get into your house?
A: I -- if I was in the family room and he was walking by, I would have let him in the back door. Otherwise, if I was in the kitchen, he walked into the kitchen area where I was. When I saw him, I may have let him in there.
Q: In either event he would not have invited himself in. Right?
A: No.
Q: He would have to be invited in by you. Right?
A: If he saw me, he could have knocked on the door and said "Hey,"
and I would have said, "Come on in," yes.
Q: But he would not have come in on his own?
A: He's never done that, I don't think. Not with me around. No.
Q: When you went to change, did he leave the house?
A: Well, when we finished talking, he left the house.
Q: Where did he go?
A: You have to ask him.
Q: Did he ask you if he could use the jacuzzi?
A: He may have, yes. It may have been when he asked me about the jacuzzi.
Q: What did you say? A "Yeah."
Q: He needed permission to use the jacuzzi. Right?
A: Well, he asked me.
Q: Is that the first time he ever asked you?
A: As far as I know, yes.
Q: You went upstairs and changed. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you do with your shoes? You said you had some black loafers on.
A: Took them off upstairs.
Q: Where did you put them?
A: Probably in my closet where I change.
Q: What did you do with your socks?
A: If I had on socks, I either put them in the shoes or in the drawer.
Q: Did you have on a pair of socks?
A: I don't recall.
Q: If you were wearing socks, what color would they have been?
A: Black.
Q: Do you remember if you were wearing socks?
A: No.
Q: Did you have--What did you do with your pants?
A: Hung them up.
Q: In the closet. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: The sock drawer was in the closet. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: What about the shirt?
A: Hung it up.
Q: And the jacket?
A: Yes. Well, I folded it, put it on a shelf.
Q: And then you put on the golf pants and the golf shirt. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And Reeboks and white socks. Right?
A: No, not Reeboks. Just white socks at that point in time.
Q: And what did you do then?
A: I went downstairs and was--actually I packed my suit sometime--I packed my suit, put my suit--put it together inside of that suit bag and laid out my Louis Vuitton bag and probably put some socks and underwear in that. Then I went downstairs, and then I--well...
Q: Did you make any phone calls?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you make any phone calls at all from the time you got back to
Rockingham from the recital until the time you called Barbieri on your cell phone 10:03?
A: Yes.
Q: Who did you call?
A: I called a girl named Gretchen--
Q: Who is Gretchen?
A: A friend of mine.
Q: Was she a friend at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: A girlfriend?
A: She was a girl and she was a friend, yes.
Q: Did you have a romantic relationship with her?
A: No.
Q: Had you ever?
A: No.
Q: How long had you known her?
A: On and off. When I say "on and off," I knew her and her boyfriend three or four years--three or four years.
Q: Did she have a boyfriend at the time?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: And how did you know that?
A: She told me.
Q: When had you last spoken to her before June 12th?
A: Two or three weeks prior to that.
Q: Were you contemplating dating her?
A: Possibly.
Q: Did you discuss that with her--
A: No.
Q: --two or three weeks before?
A: No.
Q: But you knew she was unattached. Right?
A: Well, two or three weeks previous I knew she was unattached.
Q: And you hadn't heard from her since. Right?
A: No.
Q: Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you called her?
A: Yes.
Q: And tell me about that phone call.
A: It was a message machine on, and I just left a message.
Q: What was the message you left?
A: I don't know.
Q: In substance what was it?
A: "What's going on? What are you up to? I'm around. I'm alone," you
know, something like that, and, "I'll be back in town. Give me a buzz. Let me know what's going on with you."
Q: Was this-- did this call occur before or after you changed your
clothes?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Was Kaelin in the room at the time?
A: No.
Q: Before or after you spoke to Kaelin?
A: I don't know.
Q: What's your best recollection?
A: I don't have one.
Q: Did she live in Lomita, Gretchen Stockdale?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Let me show you a telephone call at 7:32 p.m. on June 12 from your Rockingham residence to Lomita. This is Exhibit 40. Tell me if that's the call that you made to Stockdale.
A: Where is it, now?
Q: It's 7:32 p.m.
A: I don't recognize the phone number, but it could very well be.
Q: The time about right.
A: Yeah.
Q: Have you told me everything you said in the message?
A: For the most part, that I recall, yes.
Q: Did you say something in the message to the effect that, "Hi, this is OJ. I'm unattached for the first time in my life"?
A: Possibly.
Q: Was that true?
A: Possibly.
Q: And why were you unattached from Paula at that time?
A: Well, Paula and I was trying to get back together. I don't--I didn't consider Paula and I an attachment or unattachment.
Q: You didn't consider Paula--
A: An unattachment or a total attachment, but I don't think I was really thinking about Paula at that time.
Q: But you previously testified that at that time you were involved in a monogamous romantic relationship with Paula.
A: That's right.
Q: You didn't consider that an attachment?
A: We were working on--we were being monogamous, and we were working on putting our relationship back together, yes.
Q: But you were trying to establish another relationship with Gretchen on the 12th. Right?
A: No, I was not. I was not doing that at all.
Q: But you did say you were unattached for the first time in your life. Correct?
A: Yes.Yes.
Q: Did Stockdale ever call you back, by the way?
A: No.
Q: Never heard back from her?
A: No.
Q: After you changed and came downstairs, what did you do?
A: What do you mean? Are we talking about phone calls now or just---
Q: You went upstairs; you changed; you laid out your Vuitton, you came downstairs, you said--
A: Yes.
Q:-- in socks with no shoes on. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you do?
A: Phone calls, I don't know where they fell in here--
Q: What phone calls?
A: You were just asking me about phone calls. Now you're going to another subject.
Q: No. That's one call you made to Stockdale. Were there other calls?
A: Yes.
Q: Who did you call?
A: Christian Reichardt. Sydney Simpson. Maybe Michelle. I may have
returned a call to Michelle. I'm not sure.
Q: Who is Michelle?
A: She was my ex-housekeeper.
Q: Abudrahm?.
A: Yes. I'm not sure of that, but I may have--it seems as if I spoke to her that night.
Q: Sydney is your daughter?
A: Yes.
Q: And Christian was Faye's boyfriend?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, did you make any other phone calls?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Did you make one to each of these three people?
A: Yes.
Q: And these calls were all made from the Rockingham residence?
A: Yes.
Q: What telephone?
A: Either the kitchen or the TV room.
Q: And this is after you had changed back into your golf clothes. Is that right?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Yesterday you said you couldn't recall the color of the shirt. Can you recall it today?
A: No.
Q: Now, were all these three calls-- tell me what time they all took place.
A: All before I went to get a hamburger.
Q: You went to get a hamburger around 9:00 o'clock?
A: Yeah.
Q: P.M.?
A: I believe so.
Q: What was the order of these three calls?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you go to get a hamburger earlier + than 9:00 p.m.?
A: No.
Q: What did you say to Christian Reichardt, and what did he say to
you?
A: I just asked him how he was doing, and he told me somewhat of basically of what had transpired.
Q: With Faye's intervention?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that the only subject discussed?
A: Yes. And us getting together.
Q: You and Christian?
A: Yeah. I told him maybe Paula had a friend and that I'd be back in town, and possibly we could have dinner Wednesday night.
Q: Any discussion about the recital?
A: No.
Q: About Nicole?
A: No, other than the intervention.
Q: Nothing else?
A: Nothing else.
Q: Who did you call--You don't remember the order of the calls. Right?
A: No, I don't.
Q: What was your call with Michelle about?
A: I don't recall. Maybe--I don't really recall. It just seems that I spoke to her that day, but I can't really recall if I did or didn't.
Q: Do you even remember whether it was in the evening that you made this call--
A: No.
Q: --to Michelle?
A: No.
Q: Could have been earlier?
A: Yeah, could have been earlier.
Q: Same thing with Christian?
A: No.Christian was after the recital.
Q: You told him what Fishman had told you?
A: Yeah. I was calling to see how he was doing. It sounded like he had a tough time.
Q: And Sydney.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: When did you call Sydney?
A: Somewhere in that period of time.
Q: Where did you call Sydney?
A: At her house.
Q: Where was that?
A: On Bundy.
Q: Was anyone home?
A: Yes.
Q: Who answered?
A: Nicole'.
Q: What did you say when she answered?
A: "I need to speak to Sydney."
Q: Did you say hello to her?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did she say anything to you?
A: No.
Q: Did you say, "This is OJ?"
A: No.
Q: You just said, "Let me speak to Sydney?"
A: I said, "Hey, is Sydney still up," or words to that effect.
Q: What did she say?
A: She got Sydney.
Q: What did she say?
A: She got Sydney.
Q: Did she say anything to you?
A: She got Sydney.
Q: Did she say, 'Yes, she is. I'll get her?"
A: She got Sydney.
Q: I am not asking you what she did. I am asking you if she said anything in response to your statement.
A: No.
Q: Now, how long did it take for Sydney to get on the phone?
A: I don't know.
Q: What time was this call?
A: I don't know.
Q: But you clearly fix it prior to going to get the hamburger. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Tell me about the discussion with Sydney Simpson.
A: It wasn't a discussion. I was just telling her how great she was, and I told her that I'd be back by next weekend. I may not get back till Saturday because of a wedding I was going to in San Francisco and--but we were definitely going to Knotts Berry Farm on Sunday.
MR. KELLY: Going where? I'm sorry.
THE WITNESS: Knotts Berry Farm on Sunday.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You told her that you might not be
back into town till next weekend?
A: Next week. Because normally if it was my weekend to have them. I get them on Friday, but I wouldn't be able to get her till Saturday. Daddy wouldn't be around Friday, but I'd definitely be there Saturday.
Q: The following Saturday, you meant?
A: The following Saturday.
Q: You were coming back Monday or Tuesday from Chicago?
A: But then I had to go to San Diego for a Hertz thing on Wednesday and then Thursday to San Francisco for another Hertz thing and a wedding with Paula.
Q: On what day?
A: We were going to leave probably Thursday, because I wanted to show her my neighborhood.
Q: Whose wedding was that?
A: A friend of hers.
Q: What's her name?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did that person get married?
A: Yes.
Q: On the day?
A: Yes.
Q: Scheduled day?
A: Yes.
Q: You don't remember her name?
A: No.
Q: You made plans to go to Knotts Berry with Sydney and Justin?
A: Yes.
Q: And had you communicated that to Nicole?
A: No.
Q: How long--What else did you say to Sydney?
A: That was essentially it.
Q: What did she say to you?
A: She loved me, ''Love you, daddy. See you next week," words to that effect. It wasn't a long conversation.
Q: Did you ask to speak to Justin?
A: No.
Q: And you hung up.
A: Yes.
Q: What time was that?
A: I don't know.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
MR. PETROCELLI: I'm sorry?
MR. BAKER: He didn't make his pit stop. We will just take a two-second break and be right back.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 4:28.
(Brief recess).
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 4:32.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When was the last time, before this occasion on the evening of June 12 that you called the Bundy house, Nicole answered and you didn't even say hello to her?
A: Maybe a week before.
Q: You did the same thing then?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was the last time before then?
A: Probably during--a long period of time, the year before.
Q: This was behavior that you would engage in toward her when you were not feeling good towards her?
A: When I was avoiding her, yes. I don't know if that's behavior. I call and people call me and says, " Is Jason home?" and I say "Yeah," and I get Jason. I call her and say, "Is Sydney there?" She gets her. I don't know if that's a behavior. I don't understand what you mean by "behavior."
Q: You don't think there was anything unusual about calling her and
her answering the phone and not saying a word to her other than, "Let me speak to Sydney"?
A: Yeah. "Is Sydney there? Is Sydney still up?" No, I don't think that is unusual.
Q: But in other words, you were not trying to be friendly towards her. Right?
A: I was calling to speak to Sydney.
Q: You were not attempting to engage her in any kind of conversation? Correct?
A: True.True.
Q: You were trying to avoid her, as you said. Right?
A: At this instance I was trying to speak to Sydney.
Q: You had been trying to avoid her earlier.
A: I wasn't trying. I succeeding, for the most part.
Q: You were trying and succeeding to avoid her?
A: Yes.
Q: You were angry with her. Right?
A: No.
Q: You got into an argument on this call, didn't you?
A: No.
Q: And you made her cry, didn't you?
A: No.
Q: Your daughter Sydney overheard that, didn't she?
A: No.
Q: Are you positive?
A: Positive.
Q: But you were angry at her, weren't you?
A: No.
Q: You deny that?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Don't answer. You have taken wide latitude, and I let you have wide latitude, but you're way out of bounds.
MR. PETROCELLI: I've taken appropriate latitude.
MR. BAKER: Well, that's in the eyes of the beholder, and I don't think so.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Was that the last phone call you made that evening before calling Paula later on at 10:00 o'clock or thereabouts?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: What did you do after you got off the phone with Sydney?
A: I don't know, because I don't know what time I got off the phone with Sydney.
Q: What did you do next?
A: Next when?
Q: After you hung up.
A: I don t know during that period of time what time I got off the phone with Sydney, so I can't l really say what I did next.
Q: Were you with anyone?
A: No.
Q: You were alone in the house. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And were you packing?
A: At what point are we talking now?
Q: When you got off the phone with Sydney and before you went to McDonald's?
MR. BAKER: That's argumentative in view of what he just told you.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am trying to--
MR. BAKER: No, you're not. You're trying to trip him up.
BY MR. PETROCELLI: Trip him up?
MR. BAKER: What a shocking assertion. And in view of his testimony that he doesn't know what time it was--
MR. PETROCELLI: I didn't ask him what time it was. I just want to know without regard to time, what you did next.
MR. BAKER: If you can sequence it, tell him. If you can't--
THE WlTNESS: I can't because I don't know exactly what time it was that I called any of these people.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, you did say it was before you went get a hamburger.
A: Yes, I do know that.
Q: After you hung up with Sydney, is the next thing you remember then
getting a hamburger?
A: I don't recall what the next thing was. I may have talked to Christian may have been the next thing. I don't recall what the next thing was.
Q: After you made the calls to Christian and Sydney, is the next thing you
remember getting a hamburger?
A: I really don't recall exactly when that was, so I can't tell you exactly when it was we got a hamburger.
Q: When you got home and after you had changed, other than making the phone calls to Christian and Sydney, can you remember a single thing that you did?
A: Yes.
Q: What?
A: I packed,I got my car and brought it in and got my clubs and--out of it, and I put my clubs in the golf bag.
Q: When you said you "packed, " you had already laid out the Louis Vuitton bag--
A: Yes.
Q: --in the closet.Correct.
A: Yes.
Q: You had already put your socks and underwear in it. Right?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: When you just said now that you packed after these phone calls, what did you mean?
A: I thought you said to me after I got home--
MR. LEONARD: That wasn't the question.
THE WITNESS: Will you go back to the question he asked me?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Let me ask--
MR. BAKER: No.
THE WITNESS: Would you go back to the question he asked me?
MR.PETROCELLI: Please feel free to go back.
(Record read from Page 916, Line 23 through Page 917, Line 7.)
MR.BAKER: He didn't say he packed after the phone calls.
MR. PETROCELLI: He did, too.
MR. LEONARD: No, he did not.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me go back to the prior question.
THE WITNESS: You go back to the prior question.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let's go back.
(Record read from Page 916, Line 14 through Page 917, Line 7.)
MR. BAKER: Very clever, but we're not buying your questions because you asked him "other than," so--
MR. LEONARD: Not after.
MR. BAKER: Yeah. So he answered your question correctly.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Are you unable to sequence, to use your counsel's word, the order of the following events after you came back and after you talked to Kato Kaelin? And I am talking about after you came back from the recital--
A: Yes.
Q: --and after you spoke to Kaelin?
A: Yeah.
Q: Changing clothes, packing, phone calls to Sydney--phone call to Sydney and phone call to Christian.
MR. BAKER: That's compound.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Are you able to sequence those for me?
MR. BAKER: That's compound in the events, and he has already sequenced part of those for you.
MR. PETROCELLI: I believe he said that he went upstairs and he changed.
MR. BAKER: That's right.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
Q: So after changing, did you pack before you made the phone calls to
Sydney and Christian?
A: I began to pack before I made the phone calls to Sydney and Christian.
Q: Did you pull the Bronco in before you called Sydney and Christian?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Tell me about pulling the Bronco in. You walked out the door and went out the Ashford--
A: Yeah, I went out on Ashford.
Q: What did you do?
A: Pulled the Bronco in, took the golf clubs out, packed the golf clubs -- got my cover, packed my golf clubs into the cover, pulled the Bronco outside of the gate, and I believe I
grabbed my phone at that point and ran back in.
Q: When you pulled the golf clubs out, you put it in the cover bag and put it out on the south bench. Correct?
A: Yeah, my cover bag was in my lobby--
Q: Right.
A: I mean my foyer.
Q: Did you pull anything else out besides the golf clubs?
A: At that point in time, I don't believe so.
Q: Like the cell phone case or--
A: As I just said, I pulled the Bronco out, and I believe I got my cell phone when I came back in from outside.
Q: I am confused. When did you get your cell phone--
MR. BAKER: That's not the test.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you did you get your cell phone from the Bronco?
A: When I--in that period of time when I l parked--when I pulled the Bronco out and I came back in, I had my cell phone.
Q: Okay. When you -- you were parked on Ashford, but when you parked after taking your golf clubs out, you parked on Rockingham. Is that--
A: Yes.
Q: what you're saying?
A: Yes.
Q: Why didn't you park on Ashford, where you always parked?
A: I didn't want my dog to go out, and I was trying to keep my dog from going out on the street.
Q: Doesn't that happen whenever you pull your Bronco out?
A: Normally what I do when I'm leaving, I sit in the gate -- in the morning, if I'm taking the Bentley, I'll sit in the gate, pull open the gate-- pull up to the gate. I'll sit there until the gate begin to close, and I'll leave.
That's what most of the people who have lived at my house do so our dogs don't go out.
Q: And did you do that on this occasion when you were pulling the Bronco out?
A: No, because I can see that -- I didn't see the dog near me, and I pulled it out and came back in real quick so that he couldn't go out -- she wouldn't go out. And also because I didn't -- I don't think I had my door key, and I didn't want to walk all the way around.
Q: When you pulled the Bronco out and parked it, you were able to get back in through the Rockingham gate before it closed?
A: Yes.
Q: And you didn't have your keys with you?
A: Even if I didn't have --yeah, I didn't have my keys with me.
Q: You did not?
A: No.
Q: And that's when you took the cell phone out with you?
A: Yes.
Q: But not the windbreaker or the cell phone case?
A: No.
Q: What time is it when you parked the Bronco?
A: I don't know. It was in that period of time, though.
Q: Now, you knew that you were going to be gone for a few days. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You were prepared to leave the Bronco out on Rockingham?
A: Yes. Gigi may have used it when she got there Monday, but--
Q: She had a key to it.
A: Always kept a key in the house.
Q: When you usually park--Well, withdrawn. Whenever you park the Bronco on Rockingham, how do you get back in through the gate?
A: Whenever?
Q: Yeah. When you park the Bronco on Rockingham, how do you get back into the property?
A: Sometimes with a key. Sometimes if I had the puncher in the Bronco or the clicker or whatever you call that. But back in--normally the only other times that I recall parking on Rockingham was normally because of getting my newspaper or, you know, people park somewhere or I see somebody I know or something.
Q: Without the key, you still could have parked on Ashford and pushed
open the Ashford gate and gotten into that property. Correct?
A: Correct.That's correct.
Q: That would have required you to walk to the gate on Ashford. Right?
A: And probably look for my dog.
Q: Now, when you parked the car, you went back inside. Do you remember what you did next?
A: I went in the house and either I made some phone calls or I read or -- I know I did some reading in that period of time, so maybe I was sort of watching TV and reading or all the above.
Q: During this time were you with anyone?
A: No.
Q: When you said you made some phone calls, you mean the calls to Sydney and Christian?
A: Yeah, that may have been when that happened.
Q: Okay.
A: And I don't even know if I did those back to back, but I know in that period of time I spoke to them.
Q: Had you ever put any shoes on at this point in time?
A: No.
Q: So when you went out to pull in the car and do all that, you had just
socks on. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: When you took your socks off later in the evening, what did do you with them.
A: Put them in my hamper.
Q: How long were you in the house before you l went to get a burger?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you decide to go get a hamburger?
A: Yes.
Q: Was it your suggestion?
A: To myself?
Q: To yourself?
A: No.
Q: Was it your idea?
A: I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
MR. BAKER: That's a pretty funny question.
MR. PETROCELLI: It is funny.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. Pardon me?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You decided to go get a hamburger. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And then what did you do?
A: I think--I think before I decide--before I went upstairs to get my shoes, I noticed Kato had left the jacuzzi on. and I put it off, told him I that he had to be careful with that and -- "Be careful with that, with the jacuzzi, because sometimes you think it's all the way off and it's not." Then I went back in, I went upstairs, put on my shoes, I guess grabbed some money, and that's when I realized I really didn't have any change.
Q: When you told Kato to be careful, did you do that in person?
A: Yes.
Q: And you saw the jacuzzi was on, and how did you go get Kato?
A: Walked.
Q: Walked to his room?
A: Well, to the top--the jacuzzi's on the patio, and his room--the other part of the patio. I walked and I said "Hey, Kato," because I could see him through the door.
Q: He was in his room
A: Yes.
Q: You said "Hey, Kato" what?
A: Because I wanted to talk to him.
Q: Did he come out?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you say to him?
A: I told him, "You have to be careful when l you use the jacuzzi because when you think it's off, you got to look for the little bubbles because it's still on. You know, you turned off the blower, but you didn't turn off the other little jets."
Q: Were you upset with him?
A: No.
Q: And did you ask him to dinner with you?
A: No.
Q: Then what did you do? You went upstairs and put your shoes on?
A: Put my shoes on, got some money. Didn't have any change
Q: How much money did you get?
A: I don't know.
Q: Where did you get it from?
A: My vanity.
Q: What were the smallest bills you had?
A: 1's.
Q: $1 bills?
A: Yes.
Q: What were you looking for in terms of change?
A: Enough to buy a burger, and then I thought about I would need some
money for the skycap.
Q: How much money did you have on your vanity?
A: I don't know. Maybe $6-, $7-, $8-, $9,000.
Q: On your vanity?
A: At that time, yes.
Q: In all denominations?
A: No.
Q: What did you have?
A: Hundred dollars bills.
Q: And some 1$ bills. Right?
A: Two 1$ bills.
Q: The rest were all hundreds and higher?
A: Just hundreds.
Q: Was some of this money underneath the sweater?
A: Not at this time, no.
Q: All on the vanity?
A: At that point, yes.
Q: How long had it been there?
A: Probably since I'd been back from the golf course.
Q: You had that money with you at the golf course?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you win that money at the golf course?
A: I don't know if I won or lost that day.
Q: When you came downstairs then, where did l you go next?
A: I went and asked Kato if he had change, did he have any--could he break a hundred.
Q: You went out to his room again?
A: Yeah.
Q: And what did he say?
A: Well, he walked out the door, and he said--and I said, "I need" -- "Can you break a hundred? Because I'm gonna go get a burger, and I need some money for the skycap."
Q: What did he say?
A: He walked in--he said "No," but then when he walked out, he gave me a $20 bill. He said, "Here, take this."
Q: He said he didn't have change of a hundred?
A: He said "No," and then he handed me a 20.
Q: What did you do?
A: Started walking -- told him "Thank you." I started walking in the house.
Q: And then did you go out to get the burger then?
A: Well, he asked if he could go, and I said, "Sure," and we went and got the burger.
Q: And what car did you drive?
A: Bentley.
Q: Were you bothered by his going with you?
A: No.
Q: Did you want to be alone? A : No.
Q: You didn't ask him to go. Correct?
A: No. Correct.
Q: You left the Rockingham exit. Is that right? Gate, I should say?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you stop anyplace?
A: No.
Q: You drove?
MR. BAKER: You mean other than stop signs? You mean--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you make a stop anywhere, a destination stop anywhere along the way to the hamburger place?
A: No.
Q: Where did you go?
MR. BAKER: Which--
THE WITNESS: McDonald's.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Which McDonald's?
A: It's on Santa Monica.
Q: Santa Monica and what?
A: 26th Street.
Q: You drove down which part-- which route did you take to go there?
A: Rockingham to 26th Street to Santa Monica.
Q: Rockingham--turn which way on 26th?
A: Left.
Q: Left. And then what on Santa Monica?
A: Left.
Q: Left?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that the closest fast-food restaurant?
A: I think so, yes. I don't know about fast food. I don't know. But certainly McDonald's, yes.
Q: Is that the closest McDonald's to Rockingham
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Is there one almost as close?
A: Yes.
Q: Which one is that?
A: Up Wilshire near San Vicente.
Q: Did you ever go to that McDonald's?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever go to the one on 26th Street, did you say?
A: Yeah.For--yeah,most of the time, yes.
Q: Why did you choose the one on 26th Street this time?
A: Because in my mind, and I know for a fact now, it's closer, and it's the one I've always taken my kids to.
Q: When you say you "know for a fact now," what do you mean by that?
A: I was bothered by something that was said in court, so I clocked--and I didn't think it was right, so I clocked it. So I went and clocked it with my mileage.
Q: What was the result of clocking it?
A: That the one that I went to was closer.
Q: What were the distances?
A: I don't remember.
Q: How much closer was it?
A: Not much, but it was closer.
Q: Did you do any other clocking demonstrations?
A: No.
Q: After court -- after you got out of jail, I should say?
A: No.
Q: Like between Bundy and Rockingham?
A: No.
Q: Was this a drive-through?
A: Yes.
Q: Did anybody--did you talk to anybody along the way besides
Kaelin?
A: No.
Q: And did you make any phone calls?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a car phone there?
A: No.
Q: When you went to the drive-in, did you order for both Kaelin and you?
A: I may have.
Q: What did you have? What did you order?
A: I believe a Big Mac.
Q: Anything else?
A: Maybe some french fries, but I don't remember.
Q: Anything to drink?
A: No.
Q: And what did Kaelin order?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you pay for it?
A: No. I mean, I handed her the money, but it wasn't the 20 he had given me.
Q: It was the 20 he had given you?
A: It was not the 20 he had given me.
Q: He gave you the money for this?
A: Yes.
Q: An additional 20?
A: Yes.
Q: And you gave it to the--Was it a man or a woman?
A: I believe it was a woman, but I'm not sure. I believe it was an Hispanic
woman, but I'm not sure.
Q: Had you seen her before?
A: No.
Q: How much did it cost?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you receive any change?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you do with the change?
A: Gave it to Kato.
Q: How many bags did you receive?
A: One.
Q: And when you got the bag, did you pull out?
A: No. He took it out, gave it to me.
Q: You gave him the bag?
A: Yeah.
Q: Then you drove off?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you eat in the car?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he eat in the car?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Did you eat your whole hamburger in the car while you were driving?
A: Yeah, I think it was done by the time I got home.
Q: And what did you do with the bag?
A: I believe, because there was lettuce in my car and stuff--
Q: In your Bentley?
A: Yeah.
Q: How do you know?
A: Because I picked it up.
Q: When you got out?
A: Yeah.
Q: What about the bag and the wrappers from your burger?
A: I think he kept the bag, and I just had the wrapper, so I either threw it in my gargage, (sic) which is right there, or took it in the house and threw it in the garbage.
Q: Right where?
A: Right by my Bentley.
Q: Did you or did you not eat french fries?
A: I don't think so, but I might have.
Q: Did you or did you not have a drink?
A: I didn't order a drink, no.
Q: What was the last time before this occasion that you and Kato went out
for a burger together?
A: A burger?
Q: Yeah.
A: I don't think we did.
Q: What was the last time that you and Kaelin before this occasion went
out to dinner together, just the two of you?
A: Just the two of us?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't think I ever had dinner with Kato, just the two of us.
Q: Is this the first time the two of you had ever gone out to get something
to eat?
A: No.
Q: When had you done so before?
A: I think he brought his daughter the week before this with me and my kids. I always take my to I believe it was Sizzler, and he brought his daughter and they came.
Q: When was the last time before that that you went out to eat with him and others?
A: I don't know, but maybe six months previous to that with Nicole,
and we all may have eaten somewhere. I'm not a hundred percent sure
of that.
Q: So this was the first time that you and Kato had ever gone out alone to
get something to eat?
A: First time he had ever asked me to go with me, yes.
Q: And you had never asked him. Correct?
A: Never, no.
Q: Did you talk to Kato on the way to and back from the burgers?
A: I'm sure we did.
Q: Normal conversation?
A: I guess so.
Q: Were you feeling quiet?
A: I was feeling tired.
Q: Did you talk much?
A: I don't recall. Probably not, but I don't recall.
Q: Less than you usually do?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You don't recall anything you discussed?
A: No.
Q: And you don't recall how much you talked?
A: No.
Q: Was Kaelin annoying you?
A: No.
Q: Was he making a lot of chitchat that you weren't interested in hearing?
A: No.
Q: Did he say anything?
A: I'm sure he did.
Q: Did he say much?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Was it relatively a quiet drive to and from.
A: It was just two guys driving. You know, whatever we were talking about, we were talking about. May have been the basketball game.
Q: Did he eat in the car?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Now, when you got to the Bentley, when you drove in back to Rockingham-- back to your house, you drove in on Ashford. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you pulled in your Bentley in its normal parking spot. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And then what did you do?
A: As I said, I got out, I picked up some lettuce and I went in the house.
Q: What did Kaelin do?
A: I guess he went to his room.
Q: And which way did Kaelin get into his room?
A: The way he always does, I guess.
Q: Around the property?
A: Yes.
Q: To The left of it?
A: Yes.
Q: And which way did you go in?
A: The front door.
Q: Who went first?
A: What do you mean?
Q: Who went inside first?
A: I couldn't see, so I couldn't tell.
Q: It was dark?
A: No. There's a whole house between my door and his door, so I can't
tell.
Q: When you were at the Bentley, was Kato waiting for you--
A: I didn't--
Q:--to walk together to the house?
A: I don't think so because he was gone, and then I just heard him saying, "Hey, have a good trip," or something as he was evidently going around the house, but I really couldn't see.
Q: So when Kato was going around the house, were you heading towards your front door?
A: Yeah.
Q: So the both of you had walked away from the Bentley--
A: Yeah, he had walked away; and I was getting the lettuce and the crap that had fallen out of my burger out, and then I walked to the front door.
Q: By the time you closed the door of the Bentley and finished scooping up the lettuce, you --had he already -- was he already out of sight?
A: I don't think so, no.
Q: So as you started heading towards the front door, he said something to
you?
A: Yeah. "Have a good trip, " or something, "I'll see you, man," you know, some mundane thing.
Q: Did he kind of pause and wait to see if you would invite him in to eat
his burger in the house with you?
A: I didn't see that, no.
Q: And did you ask him to come in?
A: No.
Q: Did Kato Kaelin see you go in the house?
A: I don't know.
Q: Was he in a position to see you enter the door?
A: I wouldn't know.
Q: You don't know.
A: No.
Q: By the time you entered the front door, he was already around the house?
A: I didn't see him, so I assumed he was.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Good stopping point?
MR. BAKER: Yeah.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson,Volume III. The number of videotapes used was three. We are now going off the record, and the time is approximately 4:58. (ENDING TIME: 4:58 P.M.)