SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
SHARON RUFO,
Plaintiff,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON et al.,
Defendants
FREDRIC GOLDMAN,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al.,
Defendants
LOUIS H. BROWN, etc.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,
Defendant.
Videotaped deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, taken on behalf of the plaintiffs, at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard, 10th Floor, Los Angeles, California, commencing at 9:40 a.m., on Monday, January 22, 1996, before David S. Coleman, CSR #4613, pursuant to Court Order.
PART 1
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS FREDRIC GOLDMAN, ET AL:
MITCHELL, SILBERBERG & KNUPP
BY: DANIEL M. PETROCELLI, ESQ
PETER B. GELBLUM, ESQ.
EDWARD M. MEDVENE, ESQ.
ARTHUR GROMAN, ESQ.
11377 West Olympic Boulevard
Sixth Floor
Los Angeles, California 90064-1683
FOR THE PLAINTIFF ESTATE OF BROWN:
JOHN QUINLAN KELLY, ESQ.
330 Madison Avenue
New York, New York 10017-5090
(212) 682-1700
FOR THE PLAINTIFF SHARON RUFO:
HORNBERGER & CRISWELL
BY: MICHAEL A. BREWER, ESQ.
444 South Flower Street
Third-First Floor
Los Angeles, California 90071
APPEARANCES (Continued):
FOR THE DEFENDANT ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON:
BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER
BY: ROBERT C. BAKER, ESQ.
2850 Ocean Park Boulevard
Suite 300
Santa Monica, California 90405-2936
-and-
BAILEY, FISHMAN & LEONARD
BY: DANIEL LEONARD, ESQ.
66 Long Wharf
Boston, Massachusetts 02110
(617) 723-1380
-and-
ROBERT D. BLASIER, ESQ.
6355 Riverside Boulevard
Suite 2-F
Sacramento, California 95831
(916) 427-1600
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: ROD RIGOLE
ALSO PRESENT: FREDRIC GOLDMAN
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Here begins videotape No. 1 in the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume II, in the consolidated cases of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs. Orenthal James Simpson in the Superior Court, State of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is SC031947.
Today's date is Tuesday, January 23rd, 1996. The time is approximately 9:29. This deposition is being taken at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California and was made at the request of plaintiff, of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp.
The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed by Coleman, Haas, Martin and Schwab of Los Angeles, California.
Would counsel please identify yourselves and state whom you represent.
MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for Fredric Goldman.
MR. GELBLUM: Peter Gelblum for Fredric Goldman.
MR. MEDVENE: Edward Medvene for Fredric Goldman
MR. BREWER: Michael Brewer, Sharon Rufo.
MR. ZIEGLER: Christian Ziegler, Sharon Rufo.
MS. MOLINARO: Yvette Molinaro, plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly, Estate of Nicole Brown Simpson.
MR. BLASIER: Robert Blasier for Mr. Simpson.
MR. LEONARD: Daniel Leonard for Mr. Simpson.
MR. BAKER: Bob Baker for OJ. Simpson.
MR.GROMAN: Arthur Groman, Mr. Goldman.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,
having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Good morning, Mr. Simpson. You understand you are still under oath?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Other than talking to your lawyers, did you do anything to prepare for today's session of the deposition?
A: No.
Q: Did you review any materials?
A: No. You mean from yesterday till today?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Let me clarify a couple things we discussed yesterday. When Phil Vannatter received your black bag, where did he get it from you?
MR. BAKER: Are you talking about the 13th of June?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes, Mr. Baker.
THE WITNESS: They had me handcuffed, and the bag kept falling off my shoulder, so I guess that's where he got it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: We are now talking about June 13. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you drive down to the police station?
A: Yes.
Q: With whom?
A: Phillip Vannatter.
Q: You were handcuffed at your house?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you went into his car, I take it, or some LAPD vehicle, you took your bag with you?
A: Yes.
Q: And the bag was in the back seat with you?
A: I believe it was in the trunk.
Q: Trunk?
A: Yes.
Q: When you arrived at the police station, did you take the bag out and take it up with you?
A: No.
Q: And later on that evening when you got back to Rockingham, Mr. Vannatter delivered the bag back to you?
A: Correct.
Q: And so you didn't have the bag in your possession for several hours?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. Why did you take the bag with you down to the police station?
A: Well, I didn't want to leave it in my driveway.
Q: You could have left it in your house.
A: They wouldn't let me in my house.
Q: Okay. That's the only reason?
A: Yes.
Q: When you went to Mr. Kardashian's house I guess it was on the 14th of June to stay there for a while, who drove you there?
A: Mr. Kardashian.
Q: In whose car did you go?
A: His.
Q: Did Mr. Cowlings spend the evenings over at the Kardashian house?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did anybody else spend the evenings, other than yourself--
MR. BAKER: I'm sorry. Do you mean by "spend the evenings," did they sleep at the house?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Which night?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: The night of the 14th, the first night. Other than yourself and Mr. Kardashian.
A: The night--
Q: Of the 14th.
A: The night--
Q: Tuesday.
A:--of the 14th, my kids.
Q: Your kids. Anyone else?
A: I don't--not that I know of.
Q: And the night of the 15th?
A: Other than people live there, you mean?
Q: Who lived there?
A: I guess Denise Halicki and Bob Kardashian, and they may have had house help that spend the night.
Q: Other than those folks, on the 15th did anybody else join you and spend the night there?
A: Paula Barbieri.
Q: And she slept over there?
A: Yes.
Q: And on the 16th?
A: Paula Barbieri.
Q: Now, the clothing that you took with you to Mr. Kardashian's house in Mr. Kardashian's car was contained in the black bag that we discussed yesterday?
A: Yeah. And I think I might have taken another change. I'm not sure of that, but I seem to remember that before we went, that I put some clothes in a bag.
Q: The same black bag?
A: No. No.
Q: A different bag?
A: Yeah.
Q: So you remember now taking two bags--
A: I don't remember. It seems to me I don't know if they brought it the next day. It just seems to me I brought something to put on the next day.
MR. BAKER: Just wait a second.
And I object to the preamble of the question, "you remember now," because that's exactly what he testified to yesterday.
BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: How many bags did you take with you to Mr. Kardashian's car en route to his house?
A: My black bag.
Q: And do you remember any other luggage that you took with you?
A: No, but I--I just seem to have a memory that I did bring some clothes with me, and I just don't recall if I carried a bag. I don't think I carried a bag. I think I just had my black bag, but it just seems to me that I carried a change of clothes.
Q: Were all the clothes that you carried with you to Mr. Kardashian's house put in this black bag?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You think you might have just set them in the car, you mean?
A: Yeah, maybe I had a suit bag or something. I just don't recall.
Q: And do you recall specifically-- Withdrawn. You said yesterday you think some other clothes may have been delivered to you while you were there.
A: I know they were.
Q: And were they delivered in a suitcase?
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay. When you went into the Bronco on the 17th, Mr. Cowlings' Bronco, you testified yesterday that you took the black bag with you.
A: Yes.
Q: Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you remember if it had any clothes in it?
A: If it did, whatever was in there from when I got there Monday: Socks, maybe underwear, something.
Q: And you were taking out some of those socks and underwear during the course of the week. Right?
A: No, I don't recall that. I think they brought me clothes. I think from my house they brought me a lot of stuff.
Q: so whatever socks and underwear were in the black bag when you arrived at Kardashian's remained in the bag and were in the bag when you took it into the Bronco. Is that right?
A: Correct.
Q: Did you take any other clothes with you, other than what might have been in the black bag, when you went into Mr. Cowlings' Bronco?
A: No.
Q: Did you have him do so?
A: No.
Q: Were there any other clothes in the Bronco?
A: I didn't look around really to see. They weren't mine if they were.
Q: When we were off the record, we distributed copies of exhibits 4A,-B, -C and -D and 1201 Exhibit 5 that we referred to yesterday on the record.
I now would like to show you a photograph -three photographs, which we will mark as the next exhibit in order, which will be 7, and we will mark it 7-A, -B and -C, and I will show you the original photographs that we have, and I will distribute Xerox copies of these to counsel.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 7 (A C) was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, looking at the photos which we've marked as Exhibit 7 collectively, do you recognize what is depicted in the photos?
A. Yes.
Q: What is it?
A: A type of cell phone.
Q: Was this the cell phone that you owned and used in June of 1994?
A: It could be.
Q: Do you recognize the telephone number 613-3232?
A: I believe that was my number.
Q: And yesterday you--Withdrawn
Is this the cell phone that was in the black bag that you took with you to Chicago?
A: If this is mine, yes.
Q: Do you have any reason to believe it's not yours?
A: Well, I know that--No, I don't.
Q: Does it look like yours?
A: The type that I use, yes.
Q: And does this cell phone appear to be the one that you would have mounted in the Bronco or mounted in the Bentley when you drove in the car?
A: Yeah, it was this type of form, yes.
Q: And you were able to use it outside of the automobiles as well. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you said it had a battery pack that was attached to it when you used it outside of the car. Is that correct?
A: And inside of the car.
Q: And inside of the car. Do you see the battery pack there, by the way?
A: No.
Q: Is it clear to you then that neither of the two battery packs that you mentioned yesterday appears in these photographs?
A: True.
Q: Do you know where those battery packs are?
A: I would imagine in A.C.'s Bronco.
Q: Did you remove the battery pack from the cell phone at anytime while you were driving in Mr. Cowlings' Bronco?
A: I removed numerous battery packs from mine, I guess A.C.'s. I think the police officers gave us a few of them, yes.
Q: And you were using additional battery packs on your cell phone?
A: They kept giving them because the phone kept going dead, and I think the police officers were giving us battery packs, too, to get the phone alive again.
Q: Okay. In June of 1994, how many telephones did you have in Rockingham?
A: I don't know.
Q: How many telephone lines did you have?
A: One, two. I know I had a rotary phone.
Q: You had phones in various rooms throughout the house?
A: Yes.
Q: Were they all operable?
A: I would imagine so.
Q: How did the police, by the way, provide you with battery packs while you were in the Bronco?
A: Through A.C. I'm sure it's all in-police have that all. I guess A.C. was going back and forth, and I was in my driveway and--
Q: While you were at Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have a recollection that you were out in that Bronco about eight hours on the 17th of June?
A: No.
Q: Can you estimate how long you were out in the Bronco?
A: No.
Q: You don't have a clear recollection of those events?
A: No. Not time-wise, no.
Q: Did you take any Xanax?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever taken Xanax?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: You don't have to answer that. You answered that yesterday.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Are you under any medication today?
A: Yes.
Q: Which medication?
A: Sulfasalazine and Motrin.
Q: Your blood was taken on June 13. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: From the police?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever seen a report from the LAPD that showed traces of marijuana in your blood?
A: No.
Q: Are you aware that there is such a report?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you smoke any marijuana on the 12th of June?
A: No.
Q: Did you smoke any marijuana on the 11th of June?
A: No.
Q: Did you smoke any marijuana one week before June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did you take any drugs during that week?
A: No. Other than Sulfa-well, other than Motrin.
Q: What medications did you take on June 10, 11 or 12?
A: Motrin.
Q: You have a clear memory of that?
A: I always take Motrin.
Q: Every day?
A: Yes.
Q: How often?
A: In the morning. Sometimes late in the day if I'm in pain.
Q: And you were taking Motrin on a regular basis in June of 1994?
A: Correct.
Q: Did you take any other kind of drugs or medication on June 12?
A: No.
Q: Cocaine?
A: No.
Q: Methamphetamine?
A: No.
Q: Were you a cocaine user in June of 1994?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. You --
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: The answer is you were not?
A: No.
Q: In May of 1994?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: That's enough. Don't answer any more questions about that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you take cocaine at any time in the period January 1994 through June 12, 1994?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: I am instructing you not to--
BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you take--
MR. BAKER: Am I a potted plant?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you take any kind of amphetamines during that period of time?
A: No.
Q: Did you take any kind of illegal narcotics at anytime in June--in the period January to June of 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did you take any--did you use cocaine in the year 1993?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. THE WITNESS: No. I'm sorry.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you use any kind of illegal narcotics in the year 1993?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You refuse to answer?
MR. BAKER: Yes, he refuses to answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You said yesterday that you were concerned about possible drug and/or alcohol abuse by Nicole Simpson. Do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you and she participate in using narcotics in 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did you see her do so?
A: No.
Q: At any time did you see her do so?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that, OJ.
MR. PETROCELLI: I think the answer was no.
Q: Do you have any information whatsoever that in 1994 Nicole Simpson Brown abused or took illegal narcotics?
A: Yes.
Q: What is that information?
A: She told me on one occasion, and people that I talked to that was in the intervention mentioned that it came up in the intervention.
Q: What intervention?
A: Intervention for Faye Resnick.
Q: When did you first talk to anyone about that intervention?
A: After--maybe when I was in jail, but I think more when I got out, but possibly when I was in jail.
Q: Prior to the time you went to jail, you had not spoken to anyone about that intervention. Correct?
A: Wrong.
Q: Who did you speak to about it?
A: I was told about it by Ron Fishman. And I talked to Christian Reichardt about it.
Q: When did the intervention occur?
A: I gather during the week of May 6--I mean June 6.
Q: And was Nicole a part of the intervention?
A: I believe she called it or she caused it to be caused--called.
Q What was the purpose of the intervention?
A: I gather Faye Resnick was a little out of control, and Nicole was concerned.
Q: Nicole told you that she did this. Correct?
A: No.
Q: She didn't tell you that she had called the intervention?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you that she participated in it?
A: No.
Q: Did she ever discuss with you the intervention?
A: No.
Q: And how did you find out what you just said a moment ago?
A: Originally, Ron Fishman told me. Then Christian Reichardt told me.
Q: The conversations with Fishman and Reichardt occurred before Nicole's murder?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you heard about the intervention from Ron Fishman and Christian Reichardt, did you speak to Nicole about that?
A: No.
Q: Did you speak to anyone about that?
A: Other than the two of them.
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: You said that Nicole told you that she had used some drugs, illegal drugs. When was that?
A: In January.
Q: Of what year?
A: '94.
Q: Was that the first time that she told you that?
A: That she was using it, well, yeah. I mean, would be concerned in '94. In '93 she told me, too, but we weren't together in '93. But in '94, she--something happened in '94, and she called me in New York and told me about it.
Q: Let's just focus for now on 1994. When is the first time in 1994 that she told you that she was using drugs?
A: Somewhere near the middle to end, I believe, of January. Could have been the beginning of February, but I think it was the middle or the end of January.
Q: What did she say to you?
A: She called me. She was crying.
Q: What did she say?
A: She was in trouble.
Q: What else did she say?
A: She was in trouble. She did something she wasn't--she thought she was going to get in some trouble. She needed my help.
Q: What did she say that she had done?
MR. KELLY: I am going to object at this time.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. KELLY: I am going to ask to see you. I want to speak to you for a minute, Mr. Petrocelli.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 9:48.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 9:58.
BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Mr. Simpson, let me go back to the intervention that you described involving Faye Resnick. Okay? You said you spoke to Ron Fishman about it and Christian Reichardt. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Tell me what Fishman told you about the intervention.
A: Told me that there was an intervention; did I hear, and I said no. And he described to me that they had evidently called an intervention, and there was a lot of people angry with one another. Faye was put into a center, rehab center and there was a lot of anger among the various people involved.
Q: Did Fishman tell you this?
A: Yes.
Q: And did he attend it?
A: No.
Q: And how did he find this out?
A: You would have to ask him.
Q: Did he tell you how he knew?
A: No.
Q: Did you do anything about that information once you heard it?
A: I--immediately, no.
Q: At any time?
A: Other than talk to Christian to see how he was faring about it, other than that, no.
Q: Who is Christian Reichardt?
A: He was--had some relationship with Faye Resnick.
Q: And you spoke--you called him up?
A: Yes.
Q: And after hearing from Fishman about the intervention?
A: Yes.
Q: And tell me what you and he discussed; that is, you and Reichardt.
A: I asked how he was doing, and he told me he was hanging in there, and he sort of described what happened.
Q: Was the subject of the intervention essentially Faye's problems?
A: I'm sure the intervention was, yes.
Q: Did you do anything after talking to Reichardt?
A: What do you mean, did I do anything?
MR. BAKER: Relative to the intervention?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: About the intervention.
A: No.
Q: Was that the last time you discussed that before the time you were incarcerated, with anyone?
A: I--as best I can recall, yes.
Q: And you never discussed it with Nicole. Correct?
A: No.
Q: Now, did you--in your conversation with Fishman, was there any discussion about Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Relate that discussion.
A: That Christian and Nicole had an argument because of how, I guess, the intervention came across--came about.
Q: You mean the way it was being handled?
A: I guess so, yes.
Q: And that was reported to you by Fishman. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And was there anything else said about Nicole in your conversation with Fishman?
A: Not that I recall.
Q Okay. And in your conversation with Reichardt, was there any discussion of Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was that discussion?
A: In part he was upset with her for not letting him know what had been going on.
Q: With Faye?
A: With Faye. And in part that she didn't call him, and the fact that they were letting it go, and I guess it was he who really forced the intervention at that point.
Q: Christian?
A: Yes.
Q: What did Christian tell you that was going on with Faye Resnick that he was upset with Nicole for not responding to sooner?
A: That she was heavily involved in cocaine and was doing it in Nicole's presence regularly and that Nicole never alerted him to it.
Q: Now, this is something that was told to you by Christian Reichardt?
A: Correct.
Q: You didn't witness this yourself. Right?
A: No.
Q You've never witnessed Faye Resnick taking cocaine. Correct?
A: Cocaine, no.
Q: In 1994 did you ever see Faye Resnick take any sort of illegal narcotic?
A: Illegal?
Q: Yeah.
A: I would say I wouldn't know, so I don't know what's illegal or not.
Q: Did you ever see her abuse drugs, witness her abusing drugs in the year 1994?
A: I felt I did, yes.
Q: You personally witnessed it?
A: I felt I did, yes.
Q: When was that?
A: In March.
Q: Where was that?
A: At a restaurant called Toscana.
Q: Who?--
MR. KELLY: I'm sorry I can't hear.
THE WITNESS: A restaurant called Toscana.
MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And who was present there?
A: Nicole, Christian Reichardt and Faye.
Q: And did you say anything to Faye about this?
A: Yes.
Q:: What did you say?
A: Told her she was out of line doing what she was doing and-
Q: Referring to what?
A: Taking all the pills she was taking and drinking.
Q: And what did she say?
A: She argued a little bit, but the other two people sided with me, and, you know, they took the pills from her.
Q: Other than that incident, did you ever witness her in 1994 abusing drugs in your presence?
A: Not with my eyes, no.
O Okay. Other than that incident and what Mr. Reichardt told you, did you ever obtain any other information in 1994 before Nicole's murder that Faye was abusing drugs?
A: Other than comments Nicole made.
O: Nicole would make comments to you from time to time about that?
A: Yes.
Q: To what effect?
A: That she had drug problems and that she was a--
Q: "She" being whom?
A: Faye Resnick.
Q: And what was your reaction to that?
A: It had nothing to do with me, and I really didn't spend that much time with Faye, so it wasn't a part of my life. It was her--you know, their problems, not mine.
Q: I see. Do you know what the intervention consisted of, by the way?
A: No
Q: Do you know the details of it?
A: Other than what was told to me by Christian. no.
Q: Do you know where it took place?
A: No.
Q: Do you know what happened after the intervention--
A: When I got--
Q: --with Faye?
A: From what I gather, Christian took her to some place.
Q: Do you know where?
A: No.
Q: And did you ever see Faye there?
A: No.
Q: Or call her there?
A: No.
Q: Do you know what date Faye went there?
A: I believe it was in the middle of the week of the week of the 6th.
Q: June 6?
A: Yeah, the middle of that week, sometime during that week. A few days before Nicole's death.
Q: You did not speak to Faye Resnick at any time from the moment she went into the treatment center?
A: No.
Q: When was the last time that you spoke to her?
A: Either Sunday or Monday of that week. That would have been whatever those dates were, Sunday and Monday preceding the 12th.
MR. BLAZER: Spoke to Faye, you mean?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
Q: Let me show you as the next exhibit in order a calendar marked as Exhibit--
MR. BAKER: 8?
MR. PETROCELLI:--8.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
MR. BAKER: And what do you want him to look at particularly here?
MR. PETROCELLI: June. First of all, I want him to identify it.
MR. BAKER: Well, I will stipulate it's a 1994 Month At-A Glance.
MR. PETROCELLI: I want to go over the calendar.
MR. BAKER: I'm sorry. Go ahead.
MR. KELLY: Do you have copies for everybody?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
MR. KELLY: I'm sorry.
MR. BREWER: What exactly is Exhibit 8? Has it been identified?
BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: I have before you--I'm getting copies circulated. I have before you what we have marked as Exhibit 8. Do you recognize this document?
A: It depicts a calendar.
Q: Excuse me?
A: It depicts portions of a calendar, I believe.
Q: Now, is this your calendar?
A: I think it does--I think it is a cop-I believe so. yes. It's not my calendar, but it's somehow, I guess, if I put it together, it would be--
Q: Right. You have to put the two pages together where the spirals are. That's how it was Xeroxed. Do you see that?
A: Yeah. Yeah, I think it is mine.
Q: Now, this is a calendar that you maintained yourself?
A: I never really had a calendar, no. Cathy would fax me a page or, you know, whatever was coming up, she 'd send me a page with what's on it, and that was it. So I never had a calendar.
Q: You didn't carry a calendar like sort of like this one, Month At-A Glance--
A: No.
a --in your bag with you, right--
A: No.
Q:--or on your person?
A: No.
Q: And Cathy Randa would maintain your calendar?
A: Yeah.
Q: Is any of the handwriting on here your handwriting? If you take a look at the page for June, for example.
A: I don't believe so.
Q: And do you know whose handwriting is on there?
A: I believe it's Cathy's.
Q: There seems to be different handwriting on these pages.
MR. BAKER: I am not sure it's different handwriting. It's different pens.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you recognize all of the handwriting on June of 1994 as that of Cathy Randa?
MR. BAKER: This is the page he s looking at--
THE Witness: That's part of June That's part of June.
MR. BAKER: Oh, sure it is. I'm sorry.
THE WITNESS: I don't even recognize it as Cathy's. I'm just assuming, it's Cathy's. I wouldn't recognize Cathy's handwriting if you wrote it down and showed it to me.
BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: You wouldn't recognize her handwriting?
A: No. I never paid attention to her handwriting.
Q: But none of this is your handwriting. Is that right?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q Did you maintain any other kind of appointment book or calendar yourself, like one of those computerized or any kind, for that matter?
A: No.
Q: Nothing?
A: No.
Q: So any time you needed to know what your appointments were, Cathy would send you something. Is that right?
A: Well, normally. She always in my travel folder or whatever would have whatever I got to do that week or whatever my month looked like, yeah.
Q: Did you maintain a calendar at home?
A: No.
Q: In your office or anywhere?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Now going back to the calendar for June, okay, and looking at it, can you tell me what's the last day that you spoke to Faye Resnick?
A: It was either Monday or--Sunday or Monday, the 5th or the 6th. One of those days. I'm not sure.
Q: Of June. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you recall what the purpose of that call was?
A: It wasn't a call.
Q: You met with her?
A: No. She was at Nicole's house.
Q: And that's before the intervention, to the best of your knowledge. Right?
A: Yes. Yeah, it was definitely before the intervention.
Q: So you were at Nicole's house what day, now?
A: Either Sunday or Monday.
Q: Now we are talking June 5 or June 6. Correct?
A: Yeah.
Q: In Nicole's house, you mean 875 Bundy. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Who else was there?
A: I don't--Justin may have been with me, and I didn't go in the house, so--well, no, I didn't go in the house that day, so I don't know who was in the house.
Q: So you stayed outside?
A: Yes.
Q: Where?
A: In the front.
Q: Front of the house?
A: Yes.
Q: By the way, is there a buzzer at the front that you could ring the doorbell?
A: Yes.
Q: And was that operable?
A: As far as I knew, yes.
Q: And was there one in the back?
A: No.
Q: There was no buzzer in the back?
A: No.
Q: Could you enter the back?
A: If they opened the garage, you could.
Q: And was there a back--another back entrance besides the garage?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Was there a back gate, for example?
A: What do you mean? To the property?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: Did that have a buzzer?
A: No.
Q: How would you get in through the back gate if you wanted to?
A: Somebody would have to open it.
Q: Was it locked?
A: I would think so, yes.
Q: So if you came in through the back gate, you couldn't get in unless you had a key?
A: Yes.
Q: And on the front gate, you would have to buzz somebody. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And then--
A: Or have a key.
Q: Or have a key.
A: Yeah.
Q: And then there was the garage in the back. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And on this occasion did you buzz to gain entry to the property?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you come alone?
A: I may have been with Justin.
Q: What was your purpose in going there?
A: Get the dogs.
Q: What dogs?
A: Actually, get Chachi.
Q: That's your dog?
A: Yes.
Q: And then take the dog back in the car and leave. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: When you buzzed the buzzer in the front there, is there like a voice box where you can talk and be heard?
A: Yes.
Q: And you identified yourself?
A: No.
Q: They just buzzed, and you opened the door and went through?
A: No.
Q: Tell me what happened.
A: I buzzed and Faye came out.
Q: She came all the way out to the front gate?
A: Yes.
Q: Opened it up?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you and Justin went in?
A: No.
Q: Justin stayed in the car?
A: No.
Q: Tell me what happened.
A: The dog ran out.
Q: Out of the gate?
A: Yes.
Q: And ran where?
A: Off.
Q: What did you do?
A: I went one way and Faye went up Bundy, and I went one way, and then I drove back--I mean I walked back. got in my car and started driving and caught the dog in the alley across on the other side of Bundy in an alley and then brought the dog back to the front of the house.
Q: What did you do then?
A: I got the dog back on her property.
Q: How did you do that?
A: Grabbed it and brought it, you know, back on the property.
Q: And where did you bring the dog?
A: To the--inside the front gate.
Q: Who did you give the dog to?
A: Nobody.
Q: When you went inside the front gate, was it open?
A: Yes. It wasn't closed, yes.
Q: So you could push it open without a key?
A: Yes.
Q: And you entered the property?
A: Yes.
Q And with the dog?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you do when you entered the property?
A: The dog ran, and I went looking for the other dog.
Q: Did you find the dog?
A: Yes.
Q: Where?
A: Down below the side of her house.
Q: You mean the side of the alleyway?
A: Yes.
Q: And you walked down that alleyway, and did you go down the stairs?
A: I believe so. I'm not sure.
Q: Saw the dog--How far did you go down the alley?
A: I don't--I'm not sure.
Q: What did you do then?
A: I got the dog and kinda shooed it to come with me.
Q: And then what did you do?
A: Walked the dog back to the front gate.
Q: And then what?
A: Faye was at the front gate at that point in time, and I got the dog to the truck and put him in and left.
Q: Did you spend time talking to Faye at the front gate?
A: Faye was talked--babbling. Faye was, in my judgment, totally plastered. So she was babbling, yes.
Q: What was she saying?
A: I couldn't even tell you. Didn't make any sense to me.
Q: She wasn't coherent to you. Is that what you're saying.7
A: In my opinion, no.
Q: Did you spend time trying to talk to her?
A: No.
Q: Did you do anything to--Were you concerned at all for her safety?
A: No.
Q: You got the dog and then went back in the car?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you talk to anyone else on that occasion?
A: No.
Q: For example, did you talk to Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if she was home?
A: I thought I saw her at the door when I came back with the dog. I think she was standing in the doorway.
Q: Front doorway?
A: I believe so. I'm not sure. She could have been up on the balcony looking down.
Q: And you said nothing to her?
A: No, because I just saw her as I was coming, you know, driving up, and then she wasn't there. I believe. Other than, "Hey, the dog got out," or something maybe, but nothing relevant to anything.
Q: Did you gesture or wave to her?
A: Possible. I don't know. I mean, we acknowledged each other, but, you know...
Q: You can't recall any conversation of substance--
A: No.
Q:--of any kind with Faye Resnick. Is that right?
A: No.
Q: Was that the last time you were at the Bundy property before Nicole's death?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Were you bleeding on that occasion?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Did you have any cuts that you knew of?
A: Not that I was aware of.
Q: Were you wearing any Band-Aids?
A: Not that I was aware of.
Q: When you were looking for the dog, what is the other dog you were looking for?
A: I was going to get Chachi and Kato, a dog called Kato is the one that got out.
Q: The dog that got out onto Bundy
A: Kato.
Q:--was Kato.
A: Yes.
Q: And you put that dog in the Bronco. Right?
A: No.
Q: What car were you driving?
A: Bronco.
Q; Bronco. You first got--you retrieved Kato. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you do with Kato when you retrieved him?
A: As I said, I put him back on the property.
Q: On the property.
A: Yes.
Q: And you went and got Chachi. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: When you went and got Chachi, you said you walked a little bit down the property. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you go all the way down to the back gate?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What is your best recollection?
A: I don't have a best recollection. It's something I do often.
Q: What is that?
A: Pick up the dogs. And this one didn't stand out any more than any other time.
MR. KELLY: I'm sorry, Mr. Simpson. I can't hear you.
MR. BAKER: There was no question, anyway.
MR. KELLY: Well, he was talking. I couldn't hear him.
MR. BAKER: I understand.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
MR. BAKER: But, you know, if he wants to give a monologue against his lawyer's advice...
MR. KELLY: Well, I especially want to hear things against his lawyer's advice.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: We have marked that calendar as Exhibit 8, and while we are on the subject of calendars, I am going to show you another calendar. which we will mark as Exhibit 9.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 9 was marked for identification by the reporter 1 and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Take a look at what we have marked as Exhibit 9.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Can you tell me if this appears to be a copy of a calendar for you for the year 1994?
A: Yes, it appears to be.
Q: Is this a calendar that you maintained?
A: As I told you before, I didn't maintain any calendar.
Q: Do you recognize the handwriting?
A: Yeah. Pretty much looks like what is normally on my calendars.
Q: To the best of your knowledge, do you think this calendar was one that was maintained by Cathy Randa?
A: Possibly.
Q: This calendar is different from the Exhibit 8 calendar. There are different entries for the various dates. Do you know why that is?
A: I can only surmise.
Q What is your best understanding of that?
A: That normally this would be-looks more like what she would have printed to send to me. The other one looked more like something that she would maintain herself. Because I wouldn't want to see all that other stuff that's on the calendar.
Q: Exhibit 9 appears to be a copy of the kind of information that she would transmit to you. Correct?
A: Yeah. She did this page, and if I was taking some trips this week, she would put this in my travel folder, just copy a page like this and put it in my travel folder.
Q: So you would take a copy of the page with the days involved in your travel. Correct?
A: Virtually, yes.
Q; Literally a Xerox copy?
A: Yes.
Q: And you put it in that black bag we discussed yesterday?
A: Yes.
Q: What do you call that again?
A: My grip.
Q: Your grip. Okay. Are you aware of any other calendars that were maintained for you other than these two
A: No.
Q:--for the year 1994?
A: No.
Q: Are you aware of whether Cathy Randa shredded any documents in 1994?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if she did?
A: l hope so.
Q: You told her to?
A: No.
Q: Why do you say you hope so?
A: At one point once the trial began, everybody, all the lawyers, were given shredders, and I believe Marcia Clark also talked in court that they were all shredding everything, and all our lawyers were shredding everything because the media was going through the garbage cans to get story material. So it was discussed in the courtroom at one point.
Q: It was discussed in the courtroom that documents should be shredded?
A: No. That you should shred all garbage and all stuff once you looked at it or whatever. You shredded it and got rid of it. And I believe the prosecution said they were doing the same thing.
Q: You are referring to documents generated in the course of the case, you mean?
A: Yes.
Q: What about documents at the Brentwood office where Cathy Randa worked?
A: What about it?
Q: Do you know whether she ever shredded any documents there?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever tell her to do so?
A: No.
Q: Has anyone ever told you that she did so?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever acquired any information that Randa shredded any documents after--
A: What do you mean by "documents"?
Garbage?
Q: No, not things already thrown away. Things that were in your desks or your drawers or cabinets.
A: I think I saw where things were being shredded In our office, yes.
Q: How did you see that?
A: They were talking about it in court.
Q: Who was talking?
A: I don't know. lt. was an issue in court one day.
Q: Did you discuss that issue with Cathy Randa?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell your lawyers what to tell Cathy to shred?
A: No.
Q: Do you know what Cathy shredded?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether she shredded any documents relating to Nicole?
A: No.
Q: You don't know one way or the other?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether she shredded any documents relating to the l989 incident involving spousal abuse?
A: No.
Q: Do you know anything about that one way or the other?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether she destroyed any documents?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Cathy Randa shredded any documents that the prosecutors had subpoenaed and requested to be produced in court?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether anyone told her to do so?
A: No.
Q: Before you were incarcerated, did you destroy any documents?
A: No.
Q: Or ask other people to dispose of, discard or shred any documents?
A: No.
Q: After you were incarcerated, did you ask anybody to see that certain documents or materials were destroyed, discarded or shredded?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether that occurred?
A: No.
Q: Looking at your calendar again, Exhibit 8, let's say--
A: Which one?
Q: Take a look at Exhibit 8. It's also-you could look at the trial exhibit number for the criminal case. It was Exhibit 599. Just make sure you have the right one.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And look at June again or May. May and June. Can you tell me, prior to--Well, let me back Up.
The occasion that you described where you retrieved the dogs, when did that occur; on June 5 or June 6?
A: I'm not sure.
Q: What is your best understanding?
A: I don't have one.
Q: Excuse me?
A: I don't have one.
Q: It's one of those two days?
A: Yes.
Q: What time of day?
A: Afternoon.
Q: And what was the total amount of time that you believe you were on the Bundy property on that occasion?
A: I don't know.
Q: Less than a minute?
A: No.
Q: Less than five minutes?
A: Yes.
Q: And when was the time before that occasion when you were last at the Bundy property?
A: In the Bundy--in Bundy?
Q: Yes. On the property or in the house.
A: June 4th.
Q: And prior to June 4th?
THE WITNESS: I can't tear this thing?
MR. BAKER: Yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's the court exhibit. Why don't you--I will try to fix that at a break.
THE WITNESS: We're talking on the property?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah, last time before June 4.
A: I was definitely there on June 22nd and 23rd--
MR. BAKER: May?
THE WITNESS: I mean May 22nd and May 23rd, and--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Both days?
A: Yeah, pretty sure both days, and possibly... I can't really recall. Possibly another time during the course of that week. Just briefly, yes.
Q: What happened on June 4 that caused you to be on the property?
A: I had to look at my son's Nintendo setup.
Q: That was in the house?
A: Yeah. Q: And how did you access the property on that occasion?
A: I came. I blew the horn. Justin was with me. I blew the horn, Nicole opened the garage, and we came up through the garage, went to his room looked at his setup and went back down the stairs and went back out the garage and left.
Q: You drove up to the back of the property?
A: Yeah.
Q: Right in front of the garage?
A: Yeah.
Q: And the garage door is closed?
A: Yeah.
Q: You blew the horn, and the garage door went up?
A: Yeah
Q: And then you went in?
A: Yeah.
Q: And how long were you there?
A: Whatever time it took to walk up the stairs, whatever it took, about a minute or two maximum to see the hookup, and then walk back down the stairs. Five minutes or less.
Q: Now, the stairs that we're referring to are the stairs that lead from the inside of the garage up into the home. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: we are talking about interior stairs. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Then when you got into the first level of the home, you then went upstairs using interior stairs to the bedroom--
A: Yes.
Q:--of your son. correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you fixed the Nintendo setup for him--
A: I didn't fix it. I needed to see the hookup and how it was arranged and everything.
Q: Did you buy him a Nintendo cartridge around that time?
A: I bought him one later, and I had already bought him one -whatever the other game is. There's another one like Nintendo.
Q: Sega?
A: Sega or something, and we were trying to set it up in his room.
Q: Do you remember the name of the game you bought him?
A: No.
Q: And then you came--After you checked out the setup--
A: Yeah.
Q:--what did you then do?
A: Went and got in my car.
Q: Came right back down the stairs same way you came up?
A: Yeah.
Q: Went out the garage and into the car. Is that right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And drove off.
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you converse with Nicole that occasion?
A: On the 4th, no.
Q: Was she there?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you see her?
A: No.
Q: How do you know she was home?
A: Jason--Justin ran in her room, and she was in bed and they were talking, and you have to go by the door of her room, and I heard them talking as I went to his room. You have to walk by her room to get to his room.
Q: Justin came with you?
A: Yes.
Q: And then he left with you?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there anybody else home with Nicole?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: And you didn't speak to Nicole at all?
A: No. Well, somebody may have been home with Nicole, because I saw Faye's car, but I don't know if Faye was there.
Q: You recognized her car?
A: Yeah.
Q: Where was it parked?
A: In the back.
Q: What kind of car was it?
A: I don't know. I don't recall.
Q: You don't remember?
A: I don't remember, but I know it was her car.
Q: Nicole then had two cars. Is that right?
A: I believe so, yeah.
Q: What were they?
A: A Ferrari and a truck.
Q: Were they both in the garage?
A: I don't recall. I don't think so.
Q: Were they parked there on the property?
A: I don't think so because I was able to pull right up to the garage, so one of them must not have been there.
Q: Is that where one usually -where she usually parked one of them?
A: Yes.
Q: Where? Outside the garage door?
A: Yes.
Q: Which one was that?
A: The jeep.
Q: And the other car, the Ferrari, was always parked in the garage?
A: Yes.
Q: When you used to arrive, would you literally turn into the driveway or just park parallel to it?
A: Turn into it.
Q: Turn into it?
A: Yeah.
Q: So you would park next to the other jeep. Right?
A: Yeah. You couldn't park parallel. You'd block the alley.
Q: Now, the last time before June 4 you were at the Bundy property you said was definitely when?
A: Well, I was definitely there the 22nd and 23rd--
Q: 22nd and 23rd?
A: Of May, yes, and I believe I could have been there one time during that week.
Q: What did you do there on the 22nd and 23rd?
A: 22nd I helped Nicole with something, and we talked, and 23rd I think I had dinner with her.
Q: Let's start with the 23rd. Tell me about that occasion.
A: Nicole needed -I think she needed some cough syrup, and the kids were with me and she called-I believe she called. She went home. I checked on her, and she needed some cough syrup or something, and I went over and we talked. We talked about a few things.
Q: Did you go over there alone?
A: Yes.
Q: And parked in the same place in the back?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Which car did you drive?
A: I don't recall.
Q: And how did you get into the house?
A: Either I blew, if I was in the back, and she answered or she buzzed me in the front. I just don't recall.
Q: You don't remember which way?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Was it your practice to drive to the front of the house or the back of the house?
A: I did both, depending on--normally depended on where I was coming from. If I was coming from home, normally I went to the back. So, you know. So more than likely it was the back, but I don't recall how I entered the house that time.
Q: And if it was the back, that's the way you would go up. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And if it was the front, you would be let in through the front gate, and then you would go right to the front door. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, that front door is situated on the property prior to those steps going down the alleyway. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So in order to go from the gate to the front door, you don't have to walk down the alleyway and go down the steps and go back up again. Correct?
A: True.
Q: Is there any other entrance to the property besides--to the home besides that garage in the back and the front door that you just described?
MR. BAKER: The back gate you were talking about?
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me start all over again.
Q: Is there any other entrance to the Bundy home of Nicole other than the garage and the front door that you just described?
MR. BAKER: You mean actually to get into the--physically inside the house?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Okay.
THE witness: I don't know if you can--there's a room down there. I don't know if you can--I don't know if it needs a key to get into, but there is a room that is down on that walkway, but I'm not sure if there's--if it's-if it can he used as an entrance.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You are now talking about the walkway, meaning that side alley. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you are saying that if you come down that side alley, there is a door?
A: There is a room, and I know you come out of that room. I just don't know if it's a room that you can get into if it's locked. I don't know.
Q: If you were inside the property, you could come out of that room by going out a door to the side alley?
A: Yes.
Q: I see. And what is that room.
A: I think she used it as a maid's room.
Q: Maid's room.
A: Yes.
Q: And it had a door that opened out into the side alley?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Is that a door that you ever used?
A: No.
Q: Never went in or out that door?
A: Never went in or out of that room.
Q: Never was in that room?
A: No.
Q: How do you know about it?
A: I know it's there. You can't come in from the garage without seeing the room there.
Q: How do you know that it has a door on the other side that goes w the side alley?
A: Because I've been in the alley with the dogs.
Q: And you've seen that door?
A: Yes.
Q: And you can look--Does the door have a window?
A: I think it's a glass door. I'm not sure.
Q: You can see right into the room.7
A: Yes.
Q: Are there any other ways of accessing the home?
A: I don't know.
Q: Is there more than--
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Is there more than one front door?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Did you have any keys m the property?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Are you unsure of yourself?
MR. BREWER: Well, I am going on object. Vague as to time also.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In May of 1994-- A: I'm sorry. I didn't hear.
Q:-did you have any keys to Nicole's property?
A: None that I knew were Nicole's keys.
Q: In June of 1994 did you have any keys?
A: None that I knew of.
Q: When you say that you did not have keys of Nicole's that you knew of, do you have a belief that you had some keys that might have been hers but you are not sure?
A: No, I don't know if--I have no knowledge of having any keys to Nicole's house.
Q: At any time?
A: Well, yes, at some time, yes.
Q: At any time in 1994 did you have any keys to Nicole's house on Bundy?
A: Not that were my keys, no, but I've had in my possession the keys to her house in '94.
Q: I see. And when was that?
A: Numerous times.
Q: Why would you have possession of keys to Nicole's house?
A: Because I stayed at her house a lot, and some nights when I would either walk the dog or run to the store to get something, I'd go out the front door, and I'd use the key to get back in the front door.
Q Where would you get that key?
A: From her.
Q: You would ask her?
A: I'd just grab her key.
Q: Was there a place where you would find the key?
A: I don't recall. Normally she keeps her key on the counter, I believe, the counter in the kitchen.
Q: And that key on the counter in the kitchen is the only key that you would have possession of from time to time?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it a single key?
A: No. I think it was always a group of keys.
Q: What were they keys to?
A: Her car, her house, whatever.
Q: Which keys would you use to access what locks on what doors?
A: As far as I knew, it was one key that accessed the gate and the front door.
Q: Same key?
A: As far as I knew, yes.
Q: Worked for both the gate and the front door?
A: Yes.
Q: Which gate are you referring to?
A: In the front of the house.
Q: And that's a key that you can specifically recall using to enter the front gate and the front door?
A: And the exit also, yeah.
Q: And the exit?
A: And to exit.
Q: To lock it behind you?
A: Yeah.
Q: I see. When was the last time you had that key?
A: I don't know if I took it--her keys on the--the week of--the week she had pneumonia, so it would be the week of the 16th I may have, because I left her house to go get her some cough syrup at Westward Ho, and I went out the front door and to lock the front door. I may have then.
Q: If you used it on the 16th--
A: No. The week of the 16th, sometime during the week.
O: Did you then return it?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you return it?
A: Yes.
Q: After the time you used the key to go get the cough syrup--
Is that what you said?
A: Yes.
Q:--you never had possession of Nicole's keys?
A: No.
Q: That was the absolute last time?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember whether that key had a key ring?
A: No. I think it was a bunch of keys
MR. KELLY: Dan, I am going to ask, can we take a five-minute break?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. This is a good time.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:38.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 11:00 o'clock.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Going back to your prior testimony about visiting Bundy on the 22nd and the 23rd, the day that you went and took care of the Nintendo setup was which day, when you went up through the garage into the house?
A: I believe that was the 4th.
Q: That was the 4th.
A: Yes.
Q: Of June. Correct?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: And the 23rd, tell me again what you did then.
A: Nicole and I talked--the 23rd?
Q: Yes, May 23rd.
A: I think I had dinner with them, with Sydney and Justin and her.
Q: Sydney and Justin were at the house?
A: On the 23rd, if that's a Monday, yes.
Q: And you went there and had dinner?
A: Yeah, I believe so.
Q: Which car did you drive over?
A: I don't know.
Q: Where did you park?
A: I don't know.
Q: How did you get into the property?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you blow the horn? Did you--
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you buzz?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You have no idea?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether you went in through the garage or some other way?
A: The only other way would have been the front door, and I don't recall either.
Q: When you went into the house, you had dinner there. Did you spend the night?
A: No.
Q: You came back.
A: Yeah.
Q: Were you bleeding on that occasion?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: And you didn't have any cuts or anything Like that. Right?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: Did you have any Band-Aids or anything like that?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: When you say not that you recall, is there any doubt in your mind?
A: I don'trecall. If you go prior to the 23rd, I can't tell you any time in my life I ever bled, but I know I have.
Q: You can't remember. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yeah. Yes.
Q: Now, on the 22nd, what was that occasion when you visited the condo at Bundy?
A: Nicole had left my house feeling weak, and I had the kids. She told me she wanted to talk to me. So at some time later on that day I--that night we-or that afternoon or whatever, I went to her house. I think I brought her some food, too.
Q: Which car did you drive?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Where did you park?
A: I don't recall.
Q: How did you get into the property?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Would it have been through the front gate or the garage?
A: Yes. Q: And you spent--How long did you spend there with Nicole?
A: We're talking the 2--
Q: --2nd.
A: I would say an hour or two. That's a guess. That's an estimate.
Q: Was anyone else home besides the two of you?
A: I believe the kids.
Q: The same true on the 23rd; just you, Nicole and the kids. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: By the "kids"--
A: I don't know. Housekeeper might have been there that day on the 23rd. I'm not sure.
Q: Her name is?
A: I don't know.
Q: Were you bleeding on the 22nd there?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: Did you have any cuts?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: Now go to--When was the last time before the 22nd you were there? You said the week of the 16th. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: We are in May, of course.
A: Yeah.
Q: You described an occasion when you went to go get some cough medicine?
A: Yes.
Q: And Nicole was sick?
A: Yes.
Q: She was in bed?
A: Yes.
Q: And when did you first go to her house-What day was that during the week of the 16th of May?
A: I don't know. I was there almost --when I was in town that week, I was there each day.
Q: You went there a number of days?
A: That week, yes.
Q: How did you get there?
A: I'm sure I drove.
Q: Which car?
A: I don't know.
Q: Where did you park?
A: I don't know.
Q: You have no recollection where you parked?
A: No.
Q Was--
A: The front or the back.
Q: Excuse me?
A: Front or the back of the house.
Q: If you were going to be there an extended !181 period of time, would you typically park in the back?
A: No.
Q: And when you--So whenever you entered the house on those various days, you would have entered through the garage or the front gate. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: When you went through the front gate, you would go directly from the front gate to the front door. Correct?
A: Yes. Unless the dogs were there and I was dicking around with the dogs.
Q: Do you remember doing so?
A: I've done it many times.
Q: Did you do so that week?
A: I'm sure I did.
Q: Were you bleeding at all at the property during the week of May 16th?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: Did you have any cuts?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: When you entered through the front, you would park on Bundy. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, during that week did you make various trips and errands for Nicole to get her things?
MR. BAKER: During what week are we talking about?
MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: During the week of May 16 when she was ill, you identified one time when you were there, then left to bring her some cough medicine and came back.
Right?
A: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: Were there any other occasions during that week when you were visiting Nicole where you were there, left and then came back?
A: Possibly.
Q: Do you have a specific recollection of any?
A: I know I bought the kids dinner at least one night that week and went to probably Rosti to get it, so obviously I'm pretty sure that I did at least one time that week go to Rosti to get it and came back.
Q: You were already at Nicole's place and--
A: Yeah.
Q:--then left--
A: Yeah.
Q:--and came back?
A: I'm pretty sure.
Q: How would you get back into the property when you returned to the property to get back in?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you have a key?
A: She may have given me a key one of those times. May have, but I don't recall.
Q: You don't recall.
A: No.
Q: Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know any other person. other than Nicole, who in May or June of 1994 had keys to her apartment? A: Firsthand, no, but I think Cora did.
Q: When you say, "Firsthand, no," what does that mean?
A: I never saw her hand a key to anyone else.
Q: What makes you believe that Cora may have had a key?
A: Because I believe when we were on a trip--I know she had a key to Cora's house, and when we were on a trip, couple of trips we were on, I believe Cora was--had a key to her house. It just seems to me that she had mentioned that Cora had a key to her house for something.
Q: You didn't see the key. Right?
A: No.
Q: And you never got the key from Cora. Right?
A: No.
Q: And you've never seen Cora take possession or hold or use the key. Right?
A: No. I've been in Nicole's house when Cora's come in, but actually that was on Gretna Green. I've been in her house upstairs with Nicole in the shower, Nicole's in the shower, I'm in the shower, and Cora's come in the house, so I assume she had a key.
Q: Just an assumption on your part?
A: Yes. Yes. And I'm pretty sure I've heard her say that Cora had a key.
Q: You're pretty sure you heard who say?
A: Nicole state that Cora's had a key.
Q: When did she tell you that?
A: I don't know. During the course of the year or so we were back together.
Q: Did you question why Cora had a key?
A: No.
Q: And you don't know of anybody else who had a key to Nicole's Bundy condo. Is that correct?
A: No.
Q: That's correct?
A: Yes.
Q: After Nicole's death, you never got a key to her condo. Correct?
A: No. No.
Q: Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you don't know of anybody else who received the key to the condo after Nicole's death. Correct?
A: No, that's not correct.
Q: What do you know in that regard?
A: I know A.C. got a key.
Q: When did A.C. get a key?
A: I don't know. There was some things that they were trying to move, and he got a key from the Browns.
Q: The Browns gave A.C. a key?
A: Yes.
Q: When did that occur?
A: I don't know. Sometime in June.
Q: After Nicole's death?
A: Yes.
Q: How do you know that?
A: I just remember they were talking about getting something--helping move, is what I think it had to do, helping to move some things, and I believe--or maybe it was getting something for-might have had something to do with getting some clothes for Nicole or getting something for the kids that week, but I'm pretty sure A.C. had access to the house.
Q: Are you telling me that--This is a -This is access--Withdrawn.
You are saying that A.C. got a key to Nicole's condo--
A: Got access. I think a better word would be "access."
Q: What does "access" mean?
A: The ability to get in.
Q: How do you know that?
A: Because there was some conversation about it.
Q: You were present?
A: I just heard it being spoken about.
Q: You heard who speaking about it?
A: I believe it was A.C. and maybe Lou Brown.
Q: When were you in the presence of A.C. and Lou Brown?
A: At the wake I was in the presence of Lou Brown and at the funeral in the presence of Lou Brown, I think on the phone a few times speaking to Lou Brown, and A.C. I believe was in and out and around.
He was running errands, bringing my kids to me, bringing the kids back to Laguna, doing various things.
Q: Were you ever in a conversation with Lou Brown and A.C. Cowlings when the subject of access to Nicole's condo came up?
A: I believe. yes. l believe it was the subject of getting something from Nicole's house, and I believe I was, yes, but I can't-I don't have a specific memory.
Q: Where was that conversation?
A: I don't know.
Q: What exactly was said?
A: I told you I don't have a specific memory.
Q: What was said at all about access?
A: I just recall A.C. was supposedly helping the Browns get something or move something from Nicole's house.
Q: But you don't know that A.C. actually received a key to the condo. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you have never seen A.C. Cowlings possess a key to Nicole's condo. Correct?
A: No. That's correct.
a That's correct?
A: Yes.
Q: So other than this conversation that you may have--or whatever you heard in this conversation, you are not aware of anybody else getting a key to Nicole's condo after her death. Correct?
A: Access, keys--access, I think Ron Hardy's someone -I don't know firsthand. You're right. I don't know firsthand.
a You don't know that anybody actually got a key to the condo. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Including Cowlings. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Did you ever use a key to Nicole's condo to the back gate?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether you even needed a key?
A: No.
Q: You don't know?
A: I don't know. I know it locks.
Q: But you don't know whether you need a key to get in or out?
A: I've never looked at it and see if you need a key. I never thought about it, no.
Q: Can you estimate for me how many times you went to Nicole's property on the 16th of May when she was ill?
MR. LEONARD: On the 16th? MR. PETROCELLI: The week of the 16th.
MR. BAKER: I thought we talked about--
Go ahead. You can answer, O.J., if you have an estimate.
THE WITNESS: I think pretty sure on the 17th I did. I don't know if I went on the 16th at all. I may not even have been in town on the 16th. I'm pretty sure on the 17th, 18th and 19th I did probably twice each day.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: On those occasions Nicole was ill with a pneumonia?
A: Yes.
Q: And she was confined to bed?
A: Well, not really, but for the most part, yeah.
Q: For the most part she was in bed?
A: Whenever I saw her, she was in bed a few times and she was out of bed a few times.
Q: Where is her bedroom.
A: On the third floor, depending on which side of the property you're entering from.
Q: That's the top floor?
A: Yeah.
Q: And the front door accesses which level of the property?
A: Second.
Q: Second?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And the garage, when you come in through the garage, what floor do you enter into?
A: The bottom.
Q: And then you take another set of stairs to the second floor?
A: Yes.
Q: And that's where the living room and kitchen are. Correct.?
A: Yes.
Q: And the bedroom is upstairs, correct, Nicole's bedroom?
A: Yes.
Q: I would like to show you some photographs, which I am going to mark as exhibits 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21. 0kay?
(Plaintiffs' Exhibits 10 through 21 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I have handed you exhibits 10 through 21, which depict various articles of clothing. You've looked through exhibits 10 through 21, Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: You recognize that clothing?
A: Not necessarily, no.
Q: Do you recognize any of it?
A: Not necessarily, no.
Q: When you say "not necessarily"
A: I mean, I recognize Calvin Klein underwear--
Q: Let's--
MR. BAKER: Go ahead. Finish your answer, O.J.
THE WITNESS: I recognize Calvin Klein underwear and I recognize white socks, yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Exhibit 10 is a picture of a jacket. Do you see that?
A: Yeah.
Q: Is that yours?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you know whose jacket that is?
A: No.
Q: No idea if it's your jacket?
A: No.
Q: Could it be?
A: If I could see the size--
MR. BAKER: Is it possible? Wait, wait. Don't answer that.
MR. KELLY: I am sorry. What number are we on?
MR. LEONARD: 10.
MR. BAKER: That is irrelevant and has no probative value, and it's immaterial whether it could be when he has no recollection. There is no foundation, and I instruct him not to answer the question.
MR. PETROCELLI: If that standard were applied to the criminal trial, it would have lasted half the time.
Q: Look at Exhibit 11. It depicts a shirt. Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that your shirt?
A: I really couldn't say.
Q: It says Palm Beach Polo.
A: Does it?
Q: Let me see. No, it doesn't. Next one does.
Do you recognize that shirt?
A: Do I?
Q: Yes.
A: I recognize it as a white shirt.
Q: Is it your shirt?
A: I really couldn't say.
Q: Do you know whose shirt that is?
A: I have no idea.
Q: I would like you to take a look at Exhibit 12, a shirt with the name "Palm Beach Polo" on it. Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recognize that shirt?
A: I've seen a shirt like this, and I think I've owned a shirt like this.
Q: Do you still have it?
A: I don't know.
Q: Have you seen it lately?
A: I haven't looked for it lately.
Q: Have you seen it since you were released from jail?
A: Not that I know of. Possibly. I see all my shirts hanging in my closet. I don't look to see the decals on them, so I don't know. Maybe I have seen it.
Q: You do own a shirt like the one depicted in Exhibit 12. Correct?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Okay. Take a look--
MR. LEONARD: Dan, which number was that?
MR. PETROCELLI: 12
MR. BAKER: 12.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Take a look at Exhibit 13. depicting some socks. Are those your socks?
A: I have no idea. No way of knowing.
Q: Do you have socks like that?
A: White socks, yes.
Q: Did you have socks like the ones depicted in Exhibit 13 in June of 1994?
A: I owned white socks.
Q: Like those?
A: Well, I can't sec the details on them, but they're white socks from what I can see.
Q: You did own white in June of 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: Take a look at Exhibit 14 depicting a white and blue pair of underwear. Calvin Klein, I believe?
A: Yes. I can't tell if they're Calvin Kleins or not.
141 Q: Are those your pairs of underwear?
A: I have no way of knowing.
Q: Did you own underwear like that in June of 1994?
A: I owned Calvin Kleins and Jockey underwear, yes.
Q: Did you own the color blue and the color white?
A: White for sure. Blue, I don't know.
Q: You don't remember?
A: No.
Q: Are you affiliated in any way-Withdrawn.
Take a look at the next photograph, Exhibit 15, depicting a shirt--two shirts. One that says what on it? It says "Don't Knock New York, Donna Karan, New York." Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that your shirt?
A: It could be.
Q: You owned a shirt like that in June of 1994?
A: I'm not sure, but I did work for Donna Karan--I mean I had a lot of Donna Karan stuff.
Q: They gave you free clothing?
A: Yes. Sometimes, yes. Q: You mean before you were incarcerated, you worked for Donna Karan and received clothing from them?
A: No, I didn't work for them, but I had sort of--I liked their clothes, yes.
Q: You received clothing from Donna Karan before you were incarcerated. Correct?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Next is Exhibit 16, which depicts two more shirts. Are those your shirts?
A: I have no way of knowing.
Q: Do they look like shirts you owned in June of 1994?
A: I owned T-shirts, yes.
Q: Like those?
A: I don't know what these are like.
Q: That look like those.
A: They look like white T-shirts.
Q: Did you own such T-shirts in June of 1994?
A: I own white T-shirts, yes.
Q: Okay. Not currently. Did you in June of 1994? All my questions are directed to that time frame.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Next is Exhibit 17, which depicts a Polo shirt. Is that your shirt?
A: I have no way of knowing.
Q: It's extra large. Is that your size?
A: Sometimes, yes.
Q: Did you wear extra large Polo shirts in June of 1994?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know?
A: I don't know. This is a Polo make.
Q: I don't recall.
Q: Did you wear extra large shirts in June of 1994?
A: Sometimes, yes.
Q: Did you own any Polo shirts?
A: I don't know.
Q: Is that your shirt?
A: I have no way of knowing.
Q: Next is Exhibit 18, a pair of Calvin Klein underwear. Is that yours?
A: I have no way of knowing.
Q: Did you own that in June of '94?
A: Own what?
Q: That pair of underwear.
A: I told you I have no way of knowing that these are mine. How can I--
Q: Did you wear Calvin Klein underwear?
A: I'm sure I did, yes.
Q: In June of 1994?
A: I'm sure I owned some pair then, yes.
Q: By Calvin Klein?
A: I'm positive I did, yes.
Q: Next is Exhibit 19, Nike shirt. Is that your shirt?
A: I have no way of knowing.
Q: Did you own a shirt like that in June of 1994?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you receive clothing from Calvin--from Nike, as you did from Donna Karan, prior to being incarcerated?
A: In my life? I'm sure I did.
Q: Within a year of your incarceration?
A: I have no way of knowing.
Q: Did Nike provide from time to time free clothing to you?
A: I doubt it, but they could have. They could have, yes.
Q: Next is Exhibit 20, depicting two pairs of socks. Are those your socks?
A: I would have no way of knowing.
Q: Did you own those socks in June of 1994?
A: l have no way of knowing if they're my socks. How can I say if I owned them.
Q: Next is Exhibit 21, a pair of Calvin Klein white underwear. Is that yours?
A: I have no way of knowing.
Q: Did you own that in June of 1994?
A: I have no way of knowing if they're mine, so I wouldn't know if I owned them.
Q: Did you bring any of these items with you to Mr. Kardashian's house during the week of June 14th, 1994?
A: I have no way of knowing.
Q: Did you bring these items--did you put all of these items into your black bag in June of 1994?
A: I have no way of knowing.
Q: You don't remember?
A: I don't know if those are my items, so I can't recall if I put them in this black bag or not.
Q: Did you bring these items into the Bronco with you when you went on the trip to Nicole?
A: I have no way of knowing.
Q: Were they in the Bronco with you?
A: I have no way of knowing.
Q: You don't remember?
A: No.
Q: So if these items were recovered from your bag, you would have no way of saying that these are not now items. Is that right?
A: Yes. That's correct.
Q: And if they were obtained from the Bronco where you were lying down, you would have no way knowing that they're not your items. Correct?
MR. BAKER: That's kind of a double negative.
THE WITNESS: I don't get it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In other words, if these were found in or near your bag in the Bronco, you can't say that they're not your items. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Wait a minute. If they were found in or near--
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
MR. BAKER-his bag in the Bronco--
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
MR. BAKER:-you can't say that they're your items, and I am going to instruct him not to answer based on the pictures because you can't tell from the pictures whether they're his, whether they're A.C.'s or someone else.
MR. PETROCELLI: Who's talking about A.C.? He never mentioned A.C. Why did you mention A.C., Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: My depo isn't being taken.
MR. PETROCELLI: Exactly. That's my point.
MR. BAKER: I don't care what your point is, and I'm trying to respond to your question.
MR. PETROCELLI: My point is, stop trying to suggest answers. The witness can speak for himself. Just make an objection.
MR. BAKER: Thank you very much.
MR. PETROCELLI: Just make an objection, and we will move on.
MR. BAKER: Well, thank you very much for your speech, and I really am not taking legal advice from you, so I will put anything on the record that I feel like I am going to, so you--
MR. PETROCELLI: You know better than that, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: Don't tell me what I know and what I don't know--
MR. PETROCELLI: Then don't testify.
MR. BAKER:-in court telling me what the state of mind of my client was, and if you knew, you probably had some conversations with him in violation of the Code of Professional Conduct. So don't give me that nonsense. I'm--
MR. PETROCELLI: Are you finished?
MR. BAKER:--not going to put up with it.
MR. PETROCELLI: Are you finished?
MR. BAKER: I'm finished for now, but I'll put anything on the record I want.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. You put those items in the Bronco?
A: I have no way of knowing.
Q: You deny doing it?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
He's answered the question, and he is not going to answer that. That's argumentative.
Don't answer it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You don't know what clothes you own, Mr. Simpson?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that question.
MR. PETROCELLI: Why not?
MR. BAKER: Because you are arguing.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not arguing.
MR. BAKER: No. You put photographs that are unidentifiable, and now you try to make a quantum leap, and I am not going to let him answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In June of 1994 you were familiar with the clothing that you owned. Correct?
A: To the most part, yes.
Q: And did you put any of the items that I showed you into the Bronco?
A: I don't know if those are any of my items.
Q: Did you put them in the Bronco?
A: I don't know if they were any of my items.
MR. BAKER: Don't answer it, O.J.
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer the question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you--before you left of the house on the 17th, did you put anything into the bag?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you put?
A: I believe I took a picture. One of the pictures was out, and I put it in the bag.
Q: Did you put any clothing in there?
A: On that day, no.
Q: Did anybody do that for you?
A: No.
Q: I will represent to you that those items that I showed you were all items recovered from the Bronco. Do you have any way of disputing that?
MR. BAKER: Don't. He has asked and answered that, and we are not going--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know for a fact that that's not true, that they were not in the Bronco?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that question.
MR. PETROCELLI: He can answer that question.
MR. BAKER: I told him he couldn't. Don't give my client legal advice.
MR. PETROCELLI: What is the objection?
MR. BAKER: The advice is it's asked and answered and it's argumentative, and I'm not going to let him answer it.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's argumentative?
MR. BAKER: You've been through this five times--
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not getting a clear answer.
MR. BAKER: Maybe that's your impression. I think you are getting very clear answers. He is not going to answer it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know for a fact that those items were not in the Bronco?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI: On what ground?
MR. BAKER: I am not going to -You've gone through that. I am not going to allow you--
MR. PETROCELLI: You are not even going to state your objections?
MR. BAKER: No, I'm not.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Well, we will just have to let the judge--
MR. BAKER: I think you should.
MR. PETROCELLI:--take a look at these objections.
MR. BAKER: I think you should.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Identify every item that you know was in the black bag when you took it into the Bronco when you left Kardashian's house on the 17th.
A: I believe three pictures, a gun, whatever underwear and stuff I may have had in there when I left Rockingham earlier in the week--
Q: By "stuff," what do you mean?
A: Maybe socks, underwear. underapparel.
Q: Any other articles of clothing?
A: Maybe -under-apparel. I don't think anything else could fit in there with the gun and the three pictures.
Q: Anything else?
A: Credit cards, keys, watches. The only reason I know that is I saw some kind of property list, but other than that, I don't know.
Q: What keys were in there?
A: I don't know.
Q: You have no idea?
A: Uh-uh. No. I'm sorry.
0: I would like to talk a little bit about the examination conducted on the 17th of June by Drs. Huizenga, Lee and Baden. You testified about that yesterday.
A: Yes.
Q: And they took some photographs?
A: I believe so.
Q: Can you tell me, what were they saying to you at that time?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You don't have any recollection at all?
A: Not at all.
Q: Do you know why they were examining you?
MR. BAKER: And exclude any conversations that you had with your lawyers about that incident, about them being there.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Were lawyers there with them.
A: I believe Shapiro was there.
Q: While they were examining you?
A: And Bob Kardashian.
Q: While they were examining you?
A: I believe so.
Q: Can you remember what was said?
A: No.
Q: Do you know why they were examining you?
MR. BAKER: Again, exclude any conversations that you had with your lawyers relative to the reason for their examination.
THE WITNESS: No, not really.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Paula Barbieri was there also. Right?
A: I believe she was in the house, yes.
Q: And Denise Halicki. Right?
A: I believe they were in the house.
Q: Cowlings, too. Right?
A: I don't know.
Q: Now, was that the first time you had been examined by any doctor that week?
A: No.
Q: What other examinations occurred that week?
A: Dr. Huizenga examined me.
Q: Now, where did Huizenga examine you?
A: In his office.
Q: Where is his office?
A: In Beverly Hills.
Q: Who else was present, if anyone?
A: I believe my lawyers were. I'm not sure of this, but I believe my lawyers, Kardashian and Shapiro, were.
Q: Kardashian, Shapiro and Huizenga?
A: I believe.
Q: Anybody else?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What happened at that examination?
A: I got examined.
Q: They checked every part of your body?
A: I believe so.
Q: And did they take photographs?
A: I don't recall. Q: Did they find any injuries? Any injury marks?
MR. BAKER: You mean from his past?
MR.PETROCELLI: No.
MR. BAKER: From his past operations?
MR. PETROCELLI: Whatever.
MR. BAKER: What do you mean, "whatever?"
Don't answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Any injury marks. Did they find any injury marks on your body?
A: I don't recall. Whatever they examined, they examined.
Q: You don't recall?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Let's go to the 17th for a second. Did the doctors then find any injury marks on your body?
A: I don't recall. Whatever's on my body, I guess they found.
Q: What injury marks did you have on your body on the 17th of June?
MR. BAKER: If any.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: If any.
A: You have to be a little more specific. Q: In what way?
A:: What injuries. I mean, okay, they found that I have a bad left knee--
Q: Marks.
A:--from knee surgery, I have scars on my knee.
Whatever I had, whatever was on my body, they found.
Q: What do you know that was on your body on the 17th of June? What marks?
MR. BAKER: If you have--Are you talking about his scars? Because you went through this all yesterday.
MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I want to know specifically what marks that you had on your body, injury marks, bruises, cuts, whatever, on the 17th of June.
MR. BAKER: I don't know what an injury mark is. He will answer the question bruises and cuts if he has any recollection.
In other words, if you--
THE WITNESS: I'm not trying to be difficult. I don't understand what you mean here. I truly don't.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
What cuts, what bruises, what--
A: You mean like recent cuts, open cuts, old cuts?
A: Including those, yes.
A: Whatever they looked at. I got so many scars and bruises and old cuts on my body. Whatever was on my body. I didn't go with--you know, I was in space, I guess. Whatever was on my body, they found.
Q: Did you have any open cuts on your body on the 17th of June?
A: l don't know about open, no.
Q: Did you have any recent cuts on your body on the 17th of June?
A: On my finger I had a recent cut.
Q: Where on your finger?
A: On my left hand on my--I don't know what you would call this finger (Indicating).
MR. BAKER: Ring finger?
THE WITNESS: No. Actually my middle finger on my left hand.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: On the 17th of June you had a recent cut on the middle finger of your left hand?
A: I would say five-day recent, possible.
Q: And did you have any other cuts on your body, other than the one on your finger that you just mentioned, on the 17th of June?
A: I still, once again, I don't know. 1 don't know.
Q: You don't know?
A: No. I don't know how to answer that. I got cuts, as you can see, all over my body, and I--that's what I have. My body is--I've been in a lot of games--
Q: Let's talk--
A: --and I received a lot of injuries.
MR. BAKER: Let him finish.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. I want to know about cuts that you had on your body on the 17th of June when the doctors were examining you that had been caused within the previous seven days.
MR. BAKER: So is there a question in there?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Regardless of what you want to know?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Where is the question?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I want to know what those cuts were.
MR. BAKER: Then ask him a question.
MR. PETROCELLI: I just did.
MR. BAKER: You didn't. You told him what you wanted to know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Describe it to me.
MR. BAKER: Describe any recent cuts that you had that were of five days' duration or less.
THE WITNESS: The only one that I was aware of-- MR. PETROCELLI: I said seven days.
THE WITNESS: The only one I was aware of is the middle finger one.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: One cut on the middle finger.
A: That was the only one I was aware of, yes.
Q: On the 17th.
A: Yes.
Q: You were aware of no other cuts. Correct?
A: I wasn't aware of any cuts, no.
Q: Were you aware of any abrasions on the 17th of June?
A: On the 17th of June. I have trouble differentiating what I was aware of on the 17th that I found out after the 17th, so on the 17th I can't tell you what I was aware of.
Q: What did you find out after the 17th?
A: That I had other--on this side of my finger (Indicating) I had an abrasion.
Q: On the--
A: On the finger next to the ring finger. And then--
MR. KELLY: Could we have a description of the finger?
MR. PETROCELLI: One second.
Q: You just pointed to the ring finger. Correct?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: Ring finger being the one next to your pinkie.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And you had an abrasion on the 17th of June on that ring finger. Is that correct?
A: I don't know. As I said, I became --in sitting in that court looking at evidence, they talked about those things.
Q: Your doctors did?
A: On the stand, yes.
Q: Drs. Huizenga and who?
A: I don't recall. I'm pretty sure Dr. Huizenga did.
Q: And they identified an abrasion on your ring finger.
A: Yes.
Q: On your left hand.
A: I may be not characterizing it right when I said I had an abrasion.
Q: Prior to the time they identified it in court, did you know that you had had that abrasion?
MR. BAKER: Do you have any recollection of having that abrasion?
THE WITNESS: Not really, no.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you tell the doctors on the 17th of any recent cuts or abrasions that you had received or injuries that you had received in the last seven days prior to the examination?
A: I don't recall
Q: Let's go back to the 15th, the Huizenga--was that at his office?
A: Yes.
Q: Where is his office?
A: In Beverly Hills somewhere.
Q: Did he take pictures?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did anyone take pictures?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What cuts within the previous five days did you have as of the 15th of June that you can now remember?
A: The one on my middle finger; I know that. And maybe the abrasion, I may have had it then or by then.
Q: Any others?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: Do you remember telling the doctors about any cuts or bruises or abrasions you sustained within the prior five days, on the 15th of June?
A: I think I talked about this middle finger cut, yes.
Q: Did you talk about anything else?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: Did the doctors on the 15th ask you how you got that?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did they ask you on the 17th how you got that?
A: I don't recall.
MR. BREWER: Mr. Petrocelli, for the record, I would like to describe what the witness is pointing to twice with respect to those cuts. He has referred to something as an abrasion on his left middle--left ring finger, and actually what he has done--correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Simpson--is you were motioning to the medial aspect of that finger--
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. BREWER:--inside of the finger, back and forth.
Is that a more specific description or location of that abrasion?
THE WITNESS: I believe so.
MR. BREWER: And then the other description, you have rubbed on the middle finger of your left hand where the knuckle area is to describe a cut.
Is that an accurate description of where that cut was located?
THE WITNESS: That is correct.
MR. BAKER: Where the joint is. He wasn't describing the knuckle.
MR. KELLY: Excuse me. Can we go off the record for a moment?
MR. PETROCELLI: Off the record.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 1 of Volume II. The time is approximately 11:40, and we are off the record.
(Discussion held off the record.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 11:43. This is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume II.
MR. BAKER: Let me just correct what Michael Brewer said, because I think he mentioned the knuckle of O.J. Simpson's middle finger of his left hand, and we were talking about the joint that he was rubbing.
MR. BREWER: That's correct, Mr. Simpson?
THE WITNESS: That's correct, yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you were examined by Dr. Huizenga on the 15th of June, had any recent cuts or abrasions or wounds that you may have received been fully healed by the 15th of June?
A: I don't believe so, but I'm not sure. You'd have to ask the doctor.
Q: What did you tell the doctor on the 15th as to how the cut on the middle finger was caused?
MR. BAKER: If you told him anything.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall if we talked about it, but we may have. We may have. I don't recall.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What did you say?
MR. BAKER: There is no foundation for that question if he doesn't recall
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: you don't recall what he said?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: He doesn't recall even talking about it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I thought you said earlier that you discussed how that injury was caused.
A: I may have, but I don't--I may have, yes.
Q: What did you say?
A: I don't know if I did.
Q: And you can't recall. Right?
A: I must have, but I don't recall. I don't recall any specific conversation.
Q: Do you recall on the 17th any discussion as to how you were cut?
A: Not at all.
Q: And how did you suffer the cut on the middle finger?
A: I broke a glass when I was in Chicago, and in the process of cleaning it up I evidently cut my finger.
MR. KELLY: I couldn't hear that. I'm sorry, Mr. Simpson.
THE Witness: I said, in the process of cleaning--not cleaning it up, but scooping it up, I evidently cut my finger.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you remember cutting your finger?
A: I remember bleeding.
Q: Do you remember cutting your middle finger on--
A: I remember bleeding and seeing that I was bleeding, so...
Q: This was on the morning of June 13, 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: At your hotel in Chicago?
A: Yes.
Q: Name of that hotel?
A: I don't remember.
Q: And exactly how did you cut it with the glass?
A: I was trying to scoop the glass into the sink with some toilet paper and I believe a towel.
Q: You were at the sink of the hotel room?
A: Yes.
Q: In the bathroom.
A: Yes.
Q: What were you doing there at that time?
A: I don't know. I was going back and forth to the phone. I was trying to pack. I was trying to brush my teeth. I was in and out of the bathroom.
Q: And at some point you did something to a glass?
A: Yes.
Q: A drinking glass?
A: Yes.
Q: Was it like the glass next to you to your right?
A: Yeah, a drinking glass.
Q: About that tall (Indicating)?
A: I don't know.
Q: And did it have anything in it?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Can you show that glass on camera? Because I referred to it for the record.
(Witness complies.)
Q: Was it a glass about that size?
A: I don't recall.
Q: And the glass was sitting where?
A: On the counter in the bathroom.
Q: Upright or upside down?
A: I believe I had my toothbrush set in there.
Q: And was there anything else in the glass besides your toothbrush? A: I don't recall.
Q: Had you already used your toothbrush?
A: l don't recall.
Q: When did you put the toothbrush in the glass?
A: Probably the night before.
Q: When you got into the hotel?
A: Yeah.
Q: So you got to the hotel and you unpacked?
A: Yeah.
Q: You took out your toiletries?
A: Yes.
Q: And took your toothbrush out and put it in the glass?
A: I believe so.
Q: Did you use that glass at any point before the time you hit it?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You don't remember?
A: No.
Q: And tell me exactly how you cut your hand on that glass with the toothbrush in it on the counter and the sink.
A: I don't believe that's correct, what you just said.
Q: It was on the sink counter in the bathroom. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And the toothbrush was in it. Right?
A: Not when it broke, it wasn't. And I don't even know if the toothbrush was in it. I believe there were two glasses, and I just don't recall.
Q: One with your toothbrush in it?
A: I'm pretty sure. Normally when I check into a hotel, I'll put my toothbrush in a glass, so I'm assuming that I did--
Q: And the other glass--
MR. BAKER: You've got to wait until he finishes.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am sorry, Mr. Baker. I'm jumping the gun a little bit.
Q: Are you finished?
A: Yes.
Q: The other glass did not have a toothbrush in it?
A: I don't believe so. I only had one toothbrush, and if I put it in, I would have only used one glass.
Q: Were both glasses about the same size as the one you just showed on the video?
A: I don't really recall.
Q: And they were both standing or sitting on the countertop next to one another?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Was there anything underneath the glasses, like a towel or a napkin?
A: I don't recall.
Q: And describe what you did to break the glass and cut yourself.
A: I don't really know.
Q: You said something about your palm of your hand? What did you say before?
A: I didn't say anything about breaking the glass at all. You didn't ask me about breaking the glass.
Q: How did you cut your finger?
A: Cleaning up the broken glass.
Q: How did the glass get broken?
A: I don't know. I was--I don't know. I was out of it, and I was doing a few things and the glass broke, and I was going back and forth to the phone, and maybe I slammed it down. Maybe I knocked it over. I really don't know.
Q: You are saying you do not know how the glass broke. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: And at some point you saw that there was a broken glass. Correct?
A: No. At some point I was trying to get my toiletries together.
Q: And you saw there was broken glass around. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And where was the broken glass, Mr. Simpson?
A: Mostly on the counter, and I think one big piece was on the floor.
Q: And was any of it in the sink?
A: I don't know. Probably some of it.
Maybe. I don't know.
Q: And you then went to pick up the piece on the floor?
A: I was going back and forth to the telephone, and I was trying to pack, and I was trying to get it out of my way as I was packing.
Q: And you saw the broken glass, and you wanted to get it out of the way. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Were you on the phone at the time this was happening?
A: I was going back and forth to the phone, So I can't tell you exactly. I wasn't really, you know, trying to remember everything I was doing at that time, so...
Q: I am trying to focus on the point in time when you saw the glass. Okay?
MR. BAKER: What do you mean, "when you saw the glass?"
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you saw that there was broken glass on the--
A: At some point after I was told that my wife was dead--or that Nicole was dead, I broke the glass. In the process of going back and forth to the phone and trying to get packed, I cut myself trying to move the glass out of my way. Somewhere in that, that happened.
Q: Now, how did you break the glass?
A: I don't know. I think I answered that already. I don't know
Q: You said--But you do remember breaking the glass. Right?
A: I remember the glass was broke, yes.
Q: But you don't know how you broke it?
A: No.
Q: But you are confident you broke it?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you broke it, where was the glass?
A: In the bathroom.
Q: You went into the bathroom and then, while you can't remember how, broke the glass.
A: Yes.
Q: Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Why did you break the glass?
A: I had no purpose in breaking the glass.
Q: Did you break one glass or two glasses?
A: I believe it was one.
Q: Did you throw the glass?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you squeeze it?
A: I doubt that, but I don't recall.
Q: When you broke the glass, were you on the phone?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you break the glass after you got off the phone?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you break the glass during the conversation when the detective told you that Nicole had been killed?
A: No.
Q: What phone was it that you were using?
A: The phone by the bed.
Q: Was that the only phone in the room?
A: I don't know.
Q: Was there a phone in the bathroom
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you use your cell phone in that room.
A: No.
Q: Immediately after you broke the glass, you then began--what was your next movement?
A: I don't know. As I told you, I was going back and forth to the phone. Sometimes they had me on hold, sometimes various people I was talking about was trying to find me a flight, and I was just going back 151 and forth trying to pack, and that's--
Q: After--
A:--and in the midst of all of that this glass broke, and in the midst of all of that I was cleaning up the glass, and in the midst of all of that all of this happened.
Q: After the detective told you Nicole had been killed--
A: No.
Q: did you make another phone call before you broke the glass?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you believe you were on hold when you went to the bathroom and broke the glass?
A: I don't know.
Q: Are you confident that you broke the glass while it was in the bathroom.
A: Yes.
Q: Right after you broke the glass, did you pick up the pieces?
A: I don't recall.
Q: You don't know when you picked up the pieces?
A: Someone in the midst of all of that, trying to pack a bunch of toiletries, I did.
Q: And what is the length of time that that process took?
A: Well, from the time--
MR. BAKER: What process are we talking about?
MR. PETROCELLI: After he found out about the--Nicole's death and then he was packing and rushing around and--
MR. BAKER: Making phone calls?
MR. PETROCELLI: --making phone calls.
Q: That whole process, how long did that take?
A: From the time the police told me to the time I was actually at Chicago O'Hare Airport on the plane was about 60 minutes. So I must have been on five, six, seven phone calls, packed, checked out of the hotel, got a ride to the airport and got on the plane in 65 minutes, so--or in something roughly that long, so obviously a lot was going on.
Q: How long were you in the hotel room after the call from the detective about your ex-wife's death?
A: I don't know.
Q: More than 20 minutes?
A: I would think so, yes.
Q: Half hour?
A: Possibly.
Q: Longer?
A: I don't know.
Q: When you picked up the glass-Withdrawn.
When you broke the glass, did it cause a cut at that time?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: And do you know where the glass struck your body?
A: I don't know if it ever struck my body.
Q: Your hand.
A: No.
Q: Do you know even if you used your left hand to break the glass?
A: No.
Q: You don't know which hand you used?
A: No.
Q: Did you throw it against the wall?
A: No. I don't recall.
Q: Did you throw the glass in the sink?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you slam the glass down on the table--on the--I'm sorry--on the counter?
A: Possibly.
Q: Picked it up and then slammed it down. Is that your best recollection of how you broke the glass?
A: No, I didn't say that. I said that was a possibility.
Q: You say it's a "possibility." Does that sound like what happened?
A: That's a possibility.
Q: Are there any other possibilities that you know of?
A: Obviously a myriad of possibilities.
Q: Do any come to mind besides slamming the glass down on the counter?
A: I may have knocked it over. I may have hit it with my bag that I use to pack.
Q: Do you believe--
A: I mean my bag that I have my things in. I don't know. I know when I--I don't know. I was sort of out of it at the time.
Q: Did you break the glass accidentally?
A: Yeah. I believe so, yes.
Q: In other words, you were not intending to break the glass. Correct?
A: I had no intentions of anything but getting out of there and getting home.
Q: Were you attempting to break the glass?
A: No.
Q: You cut yourself when you picked up the pieces of the glass. Correct?
A: I never--I picked up maybe a piece off the floor. I'm not sure. But I didn't pick up the other pieces, no.
Q: You picked up a single piece from the floor?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: The floor of what?
A: The bathroom.
Q: Were you wearing shoes at the time?
A: I don't know.
Q: How were you dressed when the officer called?
A: I was in bed.
Q: How were you dressed?
A: Probably naked.
Q: Did you put any clothes on before you broke the glass?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you put any clothes on before you picked up the piece from the floor?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you put on any clothing before you began to pack up the items in the bathroom?
A: Probably.
Q: What clothes did you have on when you went into the bathroom to pick up the glass?
A: Pardon me?
Q: What clothes did you have on when you went into the bathroom to pick up the glass from the floor?
A: I don't recall.
Q: And what did you use, if anything, to pick up the glass?
A: I didn't pick up the glass.
Q: The glass piece on the floor.
A: Probably my hand.
Q: Did you have anything in your hand, like a towel or a napkin?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Which hand did you use to pick up the broken piece of glass?
A: I don't remember.
Q: When you picked it up, did you cut yourself?
A: I don't think so, no.
Q: So as of this point in time, your finger--your middle finger on your left hand was not cut. Correct?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Is that correct?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: When you picked up the piece of --There were no other cuts on your left hand at that time either. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And when you picked up the piece of glass--
A: Not that I know of, I should say.
Q: When you picked up the piece of glass, what did you do with it?
A: Put it in the sink.
Q: And were there any other pieces in the sink at that time?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you cut yourself at all putting it into the sink?
A: No.
Q: And did you then--what did you do after you put the piece of glass in the sink?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you clean up any other pieces of glass?
A: Eventually or at some point. yes.
Q: Later on in the process of packing?
A: And talking on the phone and getting dressed, yes.
Q: When you say "and talking on the phone," you intermittently would be going back from the bathroom to the bedroom, make phone calls and go back in the bathroom.
A: Yes.
Q: How many items did you have in the bathroom?
A: Whatever my toiletries were.
Q: They all come in what, a little travel bag?
A: Yes.
Q: And how many items had you taken out of that travel bag the night before?
A: Whatever was in it.
Q: What was in it?
A: Shaving cream, toothpaste, toothbrush, mouthwash, probably my medication. I'd say a razor blade, I guess, underarm deodorant. Whatever was in it.
Q: Anything else you remember?
A: Not that I recall right now.
Q: What medication?
A: Motrin. And vitamins. I always have my vitamins, Vitamin E, Vitamin C, sometimes, yes.
Q: You laid all those things out on the bathroom counter the night before --
A: Yeah, probably.
Q: --or right before you went to bed. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there anything else you unpacked and put in the bathroom.
A: Not that I recall.
Q: And when you say you packed up the items in the bathroom, you are now referring to the--you are referring to the items that you had taken out of the travel bag. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: You put them back in the travel bag. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you shave that morning?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did you take a shower?
A: I may have. I don't believe so.
Q: You don't believe you did?
A: I was trying to get out of there, so I don't--I really can't imagine taking a shower.
Q: Did you wash your face?
A: I'm sure I did, yes.
Q: Did you brush your teeth?
A: Yeah, I'm sure I did.
Q: Did you use the underarm deodorant?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you use any cologne or aftershave?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you take any medication that morning?
A: I probably took my Motrin at some point. Maybe not then, but at some point.
Q: Did you take it with water?
A: Probably I took it--I try to take it with food, so I probably took it on the plane.
Q: Did you eat anything in the hotel room?
A: No.
Q: Did you drink anything?
A: Other than water, and I may have not drank water. I don't know. I really don't.
Q: Do you remember drinking water?
A: No.
Q: Now, at what point in this process did you break--did you cut your finger?
A: Again?
Q: Yes.
A: Somewhere in between going back and forth to the phone, trying to pack, trying to get dressed, at some point in there I cut my finger.
Q: And on what piece of glass-Strike that.
Did you cut it on one of the broken pieces of glass?
A: Yeah.
Q: On what piece?
THE WITNESS: Can we take a break?
MR. BAKER: Yeah, sure.
THE WITNESS: Jesus Christ.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 12:02.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 12:11. BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: We have had a nine-minute break. You requested a break, Mr. Simpson. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you wanted to talk to your lawyers?
A: No.
Q: You requested the break because you were uncomfortable with the subject matter?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: You don't have to answer why you requested a break. You don't have to answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I am not asking about the content of your discussions. I am asking about your state of mind in the middle of the examination.
MR. BAKER: His state of mind in the middle of examination is irrelevant, and I am going to instruct him not to answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you talk to your lawyers during the break?
A: Yes.
Q: Why were you unable to continue with the examination?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that.
That assumes that he was unable to continue with the examination. He is entitled to take a break.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Why did you request a break during that part of the examination?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that either.
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me?
MR. BAKER: I said, "Don't answer that..."
MR. PETROCELLI: He whispered something, Mr. Baker.
THE WITNESS: No, I did not.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You mouthed something.
A: I think I'm allowed to mouth something to myself, aren't I?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What did you mouth?
MR. BAKER: You don't have to answer that either, Mr. Simpson. You are entitled to mouth things.
And if you want to continue to try to badger the witness, I've heard that on "Perry Mason," and it's not a good thing.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you want to tell us what you were mouthing?
MR. BAKER: No, and don't tell him that either. That's not relevant to any issue in this case.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you brush your teeth before or after you cut the glass?
MR. BAKER: That's been asked and answered.
MR. LEONARD: Cut the glass?
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me. Withdrawn.
Q: Did you brush your teeth before or after you broke the glass?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you brush your teeth before or after you picked up the glass?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What did you do to clean up the bathroom?
MR. BAKER: Well, I don't know that he testified that he cleaned up the bathroom.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What did you do to clean up the broken glass?
A: Took some toilet paper and some towel and just--I didn't really clean it up. I just tried to scoop it out of my way.
Q: Toilet paper--
A: Yes.
Q: and a towel.
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: What did you do with the toilet paper?
A: I don't know. Either-I don't know. Some of it I know I had with me when I went to the lobby.
Q: What did you do with the towel?
A: I believe I left it in the room.
Q: What I am trying to get to is this: You picked up some toilet paper and you picked up the towel for the purpose of scooping out of the way the glass. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yeah, brushing out of the way the glass.
Q: Now, is this after you picked up the piece of glass on the floor and put it in the sink?
A: I'm pretty sure it is, yes.
Q: So now the glass is in the sink, a chunk of glass. Correct?
A: I'm pretty sure, yes.
Q: And there are other shards or chunks of glass on the counter top?
A: Yes.
Q: And you wanted to get those glasses off the counter top. Correct?
A: Actually I just wanted to put my stuff in my travel bag, and it was kind of around it, so...
Q: You hadn't yet put the stuff in the travel bag?
A: No.
Q: You remember that distinctly?
A: That's the only reason I took the time to sweep the stuff out of the way.
Q: Did you remember that before the break?
MR. BAKER: That's argument. Don't answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So in trying to pick up the items and put them into the travel bag, you then went to the toilet paper holder and took a piece of toilet paper out?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And you put it in your hand?
A: Yes. I probably wrapped it on my hand.
Q: And then you also -Oh, you wrapped it around your fingers?
A: No. I think I just took a ball of it and was using it, and then I probably used it--
Q: Which hand?
MR. BAKER: Just a minute.
MR. PETROCELLI: I apologize.
THE REPORTER: "Probably used it"?
MR. BAKER: In a sweeping motion and probably used a towel, is what he said, if I recall.
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Baker, in fairness to me, his voice is tailing off, and I'm not quite sure when he is finished with his statement. That's why I'm interjecting.
MR. BAKER: Then you can wait for a moment, unless you believe that the staccato approach is what you have to do to get an answer, but I think that he is entitled to the courtesy of finishing his answer, and you are attempting to pepper him with questions and not allow it, and that is not appropriate.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not going to debate that with you.
Q: Let's go back to the examination. You got the toilet paper, wrapped it around what hand, by the way?
A: I don't know. I may have just balled it up.
Q: Balled it up.
A: Possibly, yes.
Q: Are you right-handed or left-handed?
A: Right-handed.
Q: What hand did you put the toilet paper in?
A: I really don't know. At some point it could have been in both hands.
Q: You took two pieces of toilet paper and balled them up into both hands?
A: No.
Q: You took one piece, balled it up into one hand?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Which hand?
A: It could have been both hands, as I answered.
Q: Can you demonstrate what you mean by that?
MR. BAKER: You don't have to demonstrate, Mr. Simpson.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Could you show us what you mean?
MR. BAKER: It's irrelevant whether he could. This is a question and answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Will you show us?
MR. BAKER: No, he won't.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You will not show us?
MR. BAKER: I indicated that he will not.
MR. PETROCELLI: On what theory?
MR. BAKER: Because he doesn't have to. This is not show-and-tell time. This is just tell time.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You took a piece of--single piece of toilet paper and put it into both hands at the same time.
A: I don't think I've ever said that.
Q: I am trying to find out what you're saying.
MR. BAKER: Just say no.
THE witness: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Just describe what you did with the toilet paper as best and as clearly as you can so we can all understand.
A: I believe I took some toilet paper and used it and then at one point probably grabbed a towel and used it.
C: When you took the toilet paper and used it, you mean you put it in the palm of your hand, and then you used it to scrape off the glass?
A: I believe so. I could have also--I believe so. I'm not totally sure. I may have just-I may have cut my finger when I was using the towel, and I just took the toilet paper and wrapped it around my finger. I'm not really sure as the sequence. My concern at that time was to get a flight out of Chicago, and I was going back and forth to the plane [sic].
Q: You are not sure then that you took the toilet paper to scoop the glass into the sink at all.
A: I know I had toilet paper in my hand during that period of time, yes.
Q: But you don't know whether you had it before or after you put the glass into the sink.
A: That is correct. That is correct. Well, during the process of doing it, at what process of doing it, I don't know if I did it in the middle of it or in the end of it, but at some point I did.
Q: You do also remember taking a towel. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: A washcloth?
A: I believe so.
Q: What did you do with the washcloth?
A: I'm pretty sure, as I answered before, that I left it in the room.
Q: What did you do with the washcloth in reference to the glass?
A: I'm sorry. I don't understand that.
Q: Did you use the washcloth to scrape off the glass from the sink or to pick it up or to do anything with respect to the glass?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you have anything on your hands, either toilet paper or a washcloth, when you were scraping off the glass shards into the sink?
A: At first I think I was just moving them, and then I grabbed some paper, toilet paper. I may have even been using one of my--my bag thing at one point, but then I do know I grabbed toilet paper at one point and a towel at one point. So I do know during the course of it, going back and forth, I may have done it all.
I wasn't concentrating on it. I was concentrating on getting a phone call or getting back to the phone and trying to get dressed, is what my mind was on at the time, not on how I was moving the glass. It really wasn't something I was paying a lot of attention to.
Q: Why did you--What was your purpose in going to the--
MR. BREWER: Mr. Petrocelli, before you go on, the witness as he is answering you is making a motion with his left hand, with the back of his hand, like he's scraping the glass or moving the glass, just for the record.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What was your purpose in using the toilet paper and the towel?
A: I don't know. Either I had cut my hand or I was trying not to cut my hand, one or the other. Q: That's what I'm getting to: Was the toilet paper and the towel intended to address a cut that just occurred, or did you pick it up to use it to clean off the sink?
A: Both. As I said, it was either one or the other. I really wasn't really paying much attention to it at the time.
Q: When you cut yourself, did you have toilet paper on the hand that you cut?
A: I don't think so. I don't think so, but...
Q: When you cut yourself, did you have a towel in the hand that you cut?
A: Possibly.
Q: Where was the towel in the hand when you cut yourself?
A: I don't know.
Q: And how exactly with the towel in your hand did you cut yourself on the glass?
A: I was trying to scrape whatever I had in my hand. I was trying to move it, and it happened.
Q: Let the record reflect that you are demonstrating a sort of--
A: Yes.
Q: --a sweeping motion.
A: Yes.
Q: And did the glass come into contact with the back of your hand? The front of your hand? Where?
A: I don't know.
Q: Where did you cut yourself?
A: On my knuckle.
Q: Which knuckle?
A: The middle knuckle of my left hand.
Q: You cut yourself on the middle knuckle on the outside--
A: Yes.
Q:--of your middle finger?
A: Yes.
Q: When you cut yourself, did you feel any pain?
A: No.
Q: And did you see that you were bleeding?
A: I would assume so at one point. Obviously I did, yes.
Q: No. At that point when you cut yourself, did you notice blood?
A: If I didn't feel pain, I didn't know I cut myself. So at whatever point I saw blood, I assumed that I had cut myself.
Q: When did you first see blood?
A: When I was in the bathroom.
Q: Did you see blood before you left the bathroom to go out to the phone area?
A: Yes.
Q: Did any blood drip off of your finger onto another surface?
A: I would assume so.
Q: Did you clean up any blood?
A: When I wiped off the counter, I just pushed everything into the sink.
Q: Including your blood?
A: I don't recall that.
Q: Do you remember using anything to clean off blood?
A: Not particularly, no.
Q: Did blood drip into the sink?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't know?
A: No.
Q: Did blood drip on the floor?
A: I don't recall. I wasn't trying to clean up the bathroom.
Q: Did you wash out your cut?
A: I believe--I don't think I washed it off because I just put--whatever I had on it, I put some more paper on it, and that's what I went downstairs with.
Q: Did you put your cut under the water, cold water, hot water, whatever, to wash it out?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you keep the toilet paper on your finger from the moment you observed the cut until you left the room?
A: I would pretty much think so. I may have added some to it yes.
Q: And did you also keep a towel on the cut?
A: Until I left the room--
MR. BAKER: Wait a minute. "Keep a towel." He has never testified he put a towel on the cut.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you put the towel on the cut?
A: I don't recall. I may have. It may have been in my hand also when I was going back and forth to the phone.
Q: Was the blood bleeding onto the towel?
A: l would assume so.
Q: Do you know so?
A: No.
Q: Did you see blood on the towel?
A: I wasn't looking for blood.
Q: I know. Did you see it, though?
A: I don't recall seeing it, no.
Q: Did you see blood on the toilet paper?
A: Yes, plenty.
Q: Lots of it?
A: When I got downstairs and I unwrapped it to get--to show the girl to get me a Band-Aid, yes.
Q: Did you call down and ask for a Band-Aid or any first-aid when you saw the cut?
A: I think from the time I cut my hand-I'm not sure of this, but from the time I cut my hand to the time I got downstairs wasn't so very long, but, no, I wouldn't have waited. I was trying to get out of the room.
Q: From the time you cut your hand, you completed packing up your items in the bathroom. Right?
A: I don't know.
Q: You put the rest of the stuff in the travel bag?
A: I don't understand your question.
Q: After you cut your hand and after you put the toilet paper around it, you then completed packing. Correct?
A: Yes, at some point, yes.
Q: Including packing up the items in the bathroom. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You put everything into the travel bag and zippered it up and walked out of the bathroom. Is that right?
A: I don't know if that's in that sequence, but eventually obviously I did, yes. I may have--
Q: What are all the things you did before you left the room after you cut yourself and put the toilet paper around your finger?
A: I don't know because I don't know at what point in time I had cut my finger. I was trying to get packed, as I told you. I was going back and forth to the telephone, as I told you. During the course of doing all of that, I cut my finger. At what point during all of that, I don't know.
Q: When you left the hotel room, did you see any blood left behind?
A: I didn't look for any blood left behind, so I wasn't really looking, no.
Q: Did you see any?
A: I don't recall seeing any, no.
Q: Did you see any blood in the sheets of the bed?
A: No, I don't recall seeing any, no.
Q: Did you unpack your clothing when you got the room that evening?
A: I hung up my suit, yes.
Q: How many bags did you bring into the hotel room besides your travel bag?
A: Bag?
Q: Excuse me. Besides the little bathroom bag, how many other items of luggage did you bring into the hotel room with you?
MR. BAKER: Well, that assumes the bathroom bag was a separate piece of luggage and not in the grip, which is not what he's testified to.
So don't answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Are you saying that the items of toiletry that you described were carried in your grip?
A: Are you asking me that question?
Q: I'm asking that question now.
A: Yes.
Q: There wasn't a separate little bag for the shaver and the deodorant; it was all in the grip?
MR. BAKER: He has testified to you that your question--my objection was your question assumed that the toiletry bag was outside of the grip when he brought it into the room. That was my objection.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me see if I understand this.
Q: You had toiletries in a separate toiletry bag which itself was in the black grip bag. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And when you brought the toiletries into the bathroom to unpack right before you went to bed, as you previously described, did you bring just the toiletry bag or the whole grip bag into the bathroom?
A: Probably just the toiletry bag. Probably just the toiletry bag.
Q: So you left the grip bag in the bedroom. Correct?
A: More than likely, yes.
Q: So when you finished packing after you cut your finger, you took the toiletry bag and put it in the grip bag. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: What other items of luggage besides the toiletry and grip bag did you have in that room with you?
A: What other--I'm sorry.
Q: Items of luggage.
A: Of luggage.
Q: Yes.
A: Louis Vuitton bag.
Q: Is that a garment bag?
A: Yeah. It's a suitcase.
Q: Suitcase or one of those--
A: Fold-over suitcase.
Q: Fold-over.
A: Yeah.
Q: Louis Vuitton?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Didn't I say "Louis Vuitton bag"?
Q: You said "uh-huh." You have to answer yes or no.
A: Yes.
Q: And what else?
A: A suit bag.
Q: A different suit bag than the Louis Vuitton bag?
A: That's correct.
Q: And what else?
A: That's all I recall.
Q: So two suit bags, one grip, and in the grip bag a toiletry bag
A: Yes.
Q: Anything else?
A: That's all I recall.
Q: What about your golf bag?
A: I never took them out of--the guy who brought me there, I never took them out of his car, since he was going to take them to the golf course and put them on the golf cart and lay all of my stuff out.
Q: So the golf bag never made it to your hotel room. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Where exactly--Withdrawn What other unpacking did you do when you got to the hotel room besides take out the toiletry bag from the grip bag and hang up your clothing that you were wearing?
A: I hung up what I was going to wear to play golf the next day--
Q: Was that a different set of clothing than you wore to the hotel that night?
A: Yes.
Q: You took those clothes out. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: What were they?
A: Golf clothes.
Q: Shirt and pants?
A: Shirt and pants, yeah.
Q: Shoes?
A: I'm sure my shoes was with my golf bag.
Q: Which bag were the shirt and pants in that you took out?
A: In my Louis Vuitton bag.
Q: Did you do any other unpacking?
A: Unpacking. There was nothing else to unpack. I took a book out of my thing. I may have looked at my travel thing again to see what the times were.
Q: When you said, "There was nothing else to unpack," there were other items in these two suitcases.
A: Yes.
Q: Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: What were they?
A: Golf clothes, underwear, socks, maybe a pair of dress shoes. I'm not sure of that.
Q: More golf clothes, you mean?
A: Another golf outfit, yes.
Q: And other attire as well?
A: I don't think so.
Q: How long were you planning to be gone?
A: One or two days.
Q: It was not determined yet?
A: If I would have found another golf game, since I had nothing to do Tuesday, I would have-that's why I brought the other golf outfit: So-which I do often, is--and if I saw Mike Ditka, I'd see if he wanted to play at his club. But, yeah, quite often I go to a tournament. If I have nothing to do and somebody got a good golf course to play, I'll stay and play golf.
Q: So in the two suitcases you had two golf changes of clothing. Correct?
A: No, that's not correct.
Q: What did you have?
A: I didn't have two suitcases.
Q: You had the Louis Vuitton bag and another bag, you said, another suitcase.
A: No, I didn't say that at all.
Q: You told me that you had a Louis Vuitton fold-over suitcase. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you had a second item of luggage similar to that. Right?
A: No. I had a suit bag.
Q: What's a "suit bag"?
A: When you buy a suit at a store, they put it in a bag and you carry it home.
Q: I see. What was in that suit bag?
A: A suit.
Q: For what purpose?
A: Because there were gonna be a cocktail party I would have to attend.
Q: What suit was it?
A: I don't know. It was a suit, whatever suit I took with me.
Q: And the dress shoes were in the Louis Vuitton bag?
A: I believe so.
Q: Did you come to Chicago with any other luggage besides the suit bag, the Louis Vuitton bag and the grip?
A: My golf clubs. My golf clubs.
Q: Anything other than that?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a second grip or duffel bag with you when you came to Chicago?
A: No. If it wasn't in my golf bag, nothing else.
Q: It might have been in your golf bag?
A: What do you mean by "might"?
Q: You said, "If it wasn't in my golf bag..."
A: In my golf bag, I had various things in my golf bag. So if it wasn't golf related, no.
Q: Well, we will get back to that.
On your cut, Mr. Simpson, where did you cut yourself when you--where on your finger?
MR. BAKER: That's been asked and answered. Don't answer it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you cut yourself on only one location on your middle finger?
A: As far as I knew, yes.
Q: And that had--you had not cut that same location prior to coming to Chicago. Right?
A: I don't think so, but--I don't think
Q: And you weren't aware of any cuts on your left hand prior to coming to Chicago. Correct?
A: No. I was--no, I never--no, I never saw a cut on my hand. No, I hadn't, no. That's correct.
Q: That's correct.
A: That's correct.
MR. BREWER: By "hand, " are you including fingers?
THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Brewer--
THE WITNESS: So a cut, no, I never saw a cut on my hand, no. That's correct.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Just so we get this clear, prior to coming to Chicago and prior to cutting your hand in Chicago, you were not aware of any cuts of any kind on your hand. Correct?
A: I never saw a cut on my hand, no. That's correct.
Q: You never saw any cuts on your hand or any of the fingers on your hand. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: That would be true for either hand. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And the only cut that you're aware of receiving as a result of the glass incident in Chicago is a cut on the knuckle of your middle finger. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you did not--did you look at the cut when it happened or shortly after you noticed it?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you examine it closely?
A: I don't know about "closely." I saw it was bleeding. I saw it was cut.
Q: How big was the cut?
A: I don't know. I can't--it was a cut. There was blood on it, so I couldn't tell. But I could just tell it was cut.
Q: Did you think you needed a stitch?
A: Not necessarily, no.
Q: Was there any skin that was jagged or abraded or pulled off the area of the cut?
A: It looked like a cut, whatever a cut looks like.
Q: A big cut?
A: It looked like a cut.
Q: Did you notice any other cuts around it or any abrasions?
A: No.
Q: Just the single cut.
A: That's correct.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, why don't we take our lunch break now. 1:30.
MR. BAKER: All right.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 12:33.
(At the hour of 12:33 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:30 p.m.)
(At the hour of 1:37 p.m., the deposition of ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 1:37.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8-A was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, I would like to mark as Exhibit 8-A a calendar in which the Xeroxing has been reduced to a single page to make it more readable. I will represent to you this is a copy of what was previously marked as Exhibit 8.
Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: And that appears to be the same calendar that we discussed before that was filled out by Randa?
A: One of the two that was filled out by Randa.
Q: Okay. This appears to be a calendar pertaining to your appointments, though. Correct?
A: For the most part, yes.
Q: Okay. When family appointments or matters, events, were listed on this calendar, where would Randa get that information?
A: I don't get the question.
Q: In other words, there are items on the calendar not business related but family related. like--
A: Whose family?
Q: Your family.
A: Show me.
Q: Take a look at June 12, 1994 on Exhibit 8-A.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: What does that say?
A: I can't--oh, "Recital," yeah.
Q: "Recital." What does it say underneath it?
A: "Recital" is underneath.
Q: It says, "Sydney Recital Dance 5:00." Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: And that pertains to your daughter Sidney's dance recital at 5:00 p.m. on June 12. Correct?
A: Yeah, that's one of the two things here.
Q: Where would Miss Randa obtain that information to put on the calendar?
A: I would imagine from Nicole.
Q: Not from you?
A: No.
Q: She called Nicole from time to time to get these appointments, or Nicole called her?
A: Nicole would normally call her and give her various things she wanted Cathy to put on my calendar.
Q: I see. Is that what happened with the 5:00 p.m. dance recital for Sydney on June 12, 1994?
A: Possibly, yes.
Q: Do you recall Nicole telling or asking you to come to the recital?
A: Yes. She wanted to know if I was going to be in town.
Q: When did you and she have that conversation?
A: Numerous times, but the last time I believe was the Thursday or so before the reciul, Wednesday or Thursday night.
Q: June 8 or June 9, 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, how did she tell you that; on the phone or in person?
A: Tell me what?
Q: That she wanted you to--wanted to know whether you would be in town and be able to attend Sydney's dance recital.
A: On the telephone. She just wanted to know whether I would be in town for the dance recital. I think she spoke to Cathy also during that week and talked about how many tickets I might need.
Q: And what did you tell her? That is, what did you tell Nicole when she asked you if you would be in town for the dance recital?
A: That I'd be back in town.
Q: How many tickets did you tell her you needed?
A: l didn't know if--she said she was getting a bunch--I don't know how many. I don't recall right now --and wanted to know if Arnelle and Jason was gonna go. I think it was sold out, which it always is. And I said I would see if--I think I told her I told Cathy to try to get two, and she had hers, and she wasn't really sure who all was coming, you know, things like that.
Q: You told her to make available tickets for Jason and Arnelle?
A: No, that's not correct. That's not what I said either. l said I didn't know if Jason or Arnelle--I think she asked me, were they going to come, and I said I didn't know. I said I did tell Cathy to see if she can get a few, and that was about the extent of it.
Q: Did you and Nicole discuss this before June 8 or June 9 on Wednesday or Thursday night, that is, whether or not you would be attending Sidney's dance recital?
A: I know the dance recital had come up before then. We knew the dance recital was coming up. I don't know the exact conversation was would I be in town, but it could have come up, yes.
Q: How long in advance of June 12 did you know about that recital?
A: I don't know.
Q: A month?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you and Nicole discuss whether Paula Barbieri would attend with you?
A: Never.
Q: Did that subject come up at all?
A: Never.
Q: Nicole never mentioned it to you?
A: Never.
Q: You never mentioned it to her?
A: Never.
Q: Do you know whether she tried to find out from any other source whether Miss Barbieri would be attending with you?
A: No
Q: Did you ask her for a ticket for Miss Barbieri?
A: No.
Q: Did you plan to take Miss Barbieri with you?
A: No.
Q: There is another entry on that day that says "Kallie" or "Kallic Shower." Do you know what that is?
A: No.
Q: Do you know who that person is?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whose entry that pertains to? Excuse me. Do you know whether that pertains to you or to Miss Randa or--
A: It's Cathy's calendar, so I assume it pertains to Cathy.
Q: When you say, "It's Cathy's calendar," it's a calendar that Cathy kept?
A: As I explained to you before, yes.
Q: Did Cathy in 1994 also put on Nicole's own appointments on this calendar?
A: I don't know what you mean.
Q: In other words, if Nicole had appointments not involving you, like going out to lunch with somebody, would she coordinate with Cathy at all?
A: I doubt it.
Q: Cathy wasn't a calendar keeper for Nicole, in other words?
A: No.
Q: That's correct. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: I would like to go to the subject of the luggage--
MR. BAKER: What?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I want to go back to the subject of luggage and specifically the luggage that you took with you to Chicago, when you arrived in Chicago on the morning of June 13th.
So far you testified that you had with you the golf bag. Correct?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: You also testified that you had the Louis Vuitton bag. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you also said you had your grip, your black grip. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you also said you had the-a bag with the suit in it. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, was that bag with the suit in it the Louis Vuitton bag?
A: No. Now you talking about the 12th?
MR. BAKER: June 12.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: June 12.
A: No.
Q: Is there--Whatever luggage you went to Chicago with on June 12th, you came back with. Correct? Is that correct?
A: In a sense, yes.
Q: Explain what you mean.
A: I didn't know if my golf bag had come back.
Q: But you brought back the Louis Vuitton bag, correct--
A: Yes.
Q: --with you when you came back the morning of the 13th.
A: Yes.
Q: And you brought back the black grip. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you brought back the suit bag. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were carrying those three items separately. Correct?
A: When?
Q: When you came back from Chicago.
A: No.
Q: How were you carrying them?
A: The Louis Vuitton bag and the grip.
Q: Where was the suit bag?
A: In the Louis Vuitton bag.
Q: But when you went to Chicago, the suit bag was not on the Louis Vuitton bag?
A: That's correct.
Q: Why was that?
A: Because I didn't want it to be wrinkled when I went to this affair. I wouldn't have had time to get it pressed.
Q: It didn't fold, that bag, the suit bag?
A: What do you mean?
Q: It wasn't folded?
A: At times, if I laid it gently, I'd fold it gently, but--
MR. BAKER: I think you are talking about two different things.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: The suit bag when you went to Chicago on June 12 from Los Angeles, it wasn't the type of bag that folded and snapped. It was--
A: No, it didn't fold and snap, but it folded over my arm or something.
Q: Okay. Did the golf bag have any other bags in it?
A: Yeah.
Q: Talking about now when you left Los Angeles on June 12.
A: Yes.
Q: What bags were in the golf bag?
A: I believe another pair of shoes. That had a pair of shoes in it, which is not really a bag. It's a little black thing that's a shoe bag. And a bag that had a windbreaker and some balls in it.
Q: Golf balls?
A: Yes.
Q: What was the color of that bag?
MR. BAKER: What was "that bag"?
MR. PETROCELLI: The bag that had the windbreaker and golf balls in it.
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. They had it in court one day, but I can't recall what the color was.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that a bag that you always carried in your golf bag?
A: No.
Q: You always carried the shoe bag in your golf bag. Correct?
A: Not always, no.
Q: How would you transport your shoes when they were not in the shoe bag?
A: Sometimes I'd put them directly in the golf bag, and sometimes I'd just throw a shoe bag in, and sometimes I carried more than one pair of shoes, and the shoe bag--the shoes would be in the shoe bag. Only one pair fits in the shoe bag, and sometimes I carried more than one pair of shoes, golf shoes, with me.
Q: So the shoe bag, when it doesn't have any shoes in it, would also be carried in the golf bag?
A: No, not necessarily.
Q: You might carry it separately from the golf bag?
A: May not carry it.
Q: Just leave it home?
A: Yeah.
Q: But on this occasion you had the shoe bag--
A: I believe. I'm not sure about that. I just know when they brought all the golf stuff in court, the shoe bag was there, so I'm assuming it was in the overall bag.
Q: And were the golf shoes in the shoe bag?
A: A pair of golf shoes were in the shoe bag, yes.
Q: Did you bring another one with you to Chicago?
A: There were some black shoes that I know were in the outer cover bag that was definitely in there.
Q: Golf shoes?
A: Golf shoes, yes.
Q: So you went to Chicago on June 12 with two pairs of golf shoes.
A: Possibly, yes.
Q: One in the golf club bag and another in the shoe bag which was in the golf club bag. Correct?
A: No. One was in the golf shoe bag that was in the golf bag, I believe, and the other one definitely was just in the cover bag laying in the shoe-in the golf bag, cover bag of the golf bag.
Q: What is a cover bag?
A: It's a bag that you use to--normally use to travel with.
MR. BAKER: It's so that when you get there, you have all of your irons and your Callaway woods are still there, and the bellman--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You mean the cover that goes over the clubs--
A: Yeah.
Q: and snaps onto the golf bag?
A: Yes.
Q: And you're saying--
MR. BAKER: No.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, wait a second. You said "Yes." Your lawyer said "No." Explain yourself, Mr. Simpson.
A: What do you want me to explain myself? You're the one that's confused. What do you mean, explain myself?
Q: I don't understand your answer.
A: There's a cover bag that you can put your whole golf bag in when you travel.
Q: And in the cover bag which surrounded the entire golf bag--
A: There was--
Q: Some shoes.
A: --shoes, yes.
Q: Is there a compartment in the cover bag for the shoes?
A: I don't recall. I don't recall. This is--was a relatively new cover bag.
Q: Okay. And in the golf bag, you said you had the shoe bag with shoes in it.
A: I believe so. I'm not a hundred percent sure of that, but I believe so.
Q: Now, we had this other bag that had the windbreaker and the golf balls. Right?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: What was the color of that bag?
A: I'm not totally sure of that.
Q: What is your best recollection?
A: Blue, bluish-gray, blue.
Q: What was the color of the windbreaker?
A: Blue or green. One or the other. I'm not a hundred percent sure of that.
Q: Was it your windbreaker?
A: Yes.
Q: And had you used it before?
A: I don't know.
Q: Where did you get that windbreaker?
A: From Hertz.
Q: Did you see that windbreaker in court also?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Have you ever seen that windbreaker after you packed it for Chicago?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Have you ever seen the blue or bluish-gray bag--
A: Yes.
Q: --that was shown in court?
A: Yes.
Q: And when it was shown in court, did it have anything in it?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did it have golf balls in it?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you always take that bag with the windbreaker and golf balls when you play golf?
A: Never. Never before.
Q: What made you do it this time?
A: When I was getting balls, it was the only bag--I don't know if it was the only bag, but it was a bag that was in the back of my Bentley when I was trying to find balls to take to Chicago with me.
Q: It's not a bag that you bought at a sports store or a golf store to carry golf balls, is it?
A: No.
Q: What was the use of that bag that you usually made?
A: For me it was no use at all. I play in a lot of tournaments, and they give you this crap all the time and it ends up in your car and your house, and my kids, people, take them or housekeepers use them. I get a lot of them, I mean a lot of them, and it was just something that was in the trunk of my car.
Q: How many of them were in the trunk?
A: I don't know. I didn't really count what was in the trunk of my car at that time.
Q: Was there more than one such bag in the trunk of your Bentley?
A: Could have been.
Q: You pulled that bag out. Is that what you're saying?
A: Well, I just grabbed a bag that was small that I could put balls in and a windbreaker in.
Q: Was the bag empty?
A: Yes.
Q: And the windbreaker that you put in it, is that a windbreaker that you bring with you to golf courses?
A: I hadn't, but I--it was given to me at a golf course during a golf tournament, so it was-you know, it was a gift that Hertz give out at one of our golf tournaments. You give it to the golfers.
Q: When did you receive that windbreaker?
A: I don't know.
Q: Had you ever used it before?
A: Possibly.
Q: Where was it on the evening of June 12 when you went to get it for your trip?
A: Laying in the trunk of my car.
Q: The windbreaker?
A: Yes.
Q: Where were the golf balls that you put into this bag?
A: In various bags in the trunk of my car.
Q: What kind of bags?
A: Just bags they give you at the country club to put your shoes in when you finish playing golf.
Q: So in those bags were golf balls?
A: Yes.
Q: And you emptied out those golf balls from those bags and put them into this bluish-gray bag?
A: No .
Q: What did you do?
A: I took some out and used some, and the rest I left in those bags.
Q: How many golf balls did you take out?
A: Four or five, six, that I took with me; three, four, five that I hit away.
Q: You hit away right there?
A: Yeah.
Q: At Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you hit those balls away, did you retrieve them and bring them with you?
A: No.
Q: You already had golf balls in your golf bag. Correct?
A: I may have. I had no new golf balls. I had no new balls, so I may have had one or two used balls, but not many at all.
Q: And these balls you took from the Bentley trunk were all new?
A: No.
Q: They were used?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was the brand?
A: Maxfli lOOs.
Q: All of them were?
A: The ones that I took.
Q: Were you specifically looking for Maxfli 100s?
A: Specifically, yes.
Q: And you had other types of balls in there?
A: Yes.
Q: So when you were searching your trunk, you looked for the Maxfli 100s in the various bags of balls you had there, took out four or five or six and put them in the bluish-gray bag. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And then hit three, four or five others. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you took the windbreaker and put that in the bag, too?
A: Yes.
Q: And did the bag have a zipper?
A: I don't--I'm not sure. Probably.
Q: Did you take anything else out of the trunk in addition to what you've just described?
A: Yes.
Q: What was that?
A: Pitching wedge.
Q: What was the make?
A: Callaway.
Q: Was it a new pitching wedge?
A: No.
Q: An old one?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have any other clubs in the trunk?
A: Yes.
Q: How many?
A: I don't know.
Q: A whole set?
A: At least.
Q: Two sets?
A: I don't know.
Q: You specifically looked for pitching wedge?
A: No. I was looking for a sand wedge.
Q: Did you find one?
A: No.
Q: How many pitching wedges were there?
A: I don't know.
Q: Why did you pick this one?
A: Because it's the closest thing to a sand wedge.
Q: Did you take anything else out?
A: No.
Q: And then you closed the trunk?
A: No.
Q: What did you do?
A: Hit some balls away.
Q: While the trunk was open?
A: Yes.
Q: Why did you leave the trunk open? Let me ask you this: What club did you use to hit the balls with?
A: Pitching wedge.
Q: The one you took out?
A: Yes.
Q: Why did you leave the trunk open while you did that?
A: I don't know.
Q: But you specifically recall it was open?
A: Yeah.
Q: After you hit the balls, did you then close the trunk?
A: Yes.
Q: Did go into it again?
A: What do you mean?
Q: To do anything, to get any more balls out, to put something back.
A: Yes.
Q: What did you do?
A: Put the pitching wedge back.
Q: Did you take it with you?
A: No.
Q: Did the golf clubs that you did take with you include a sand wedge?
A: To Chicago?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever locate a different sand wedge to take with you?
A: No.
Q: So you ended up going with the sand wedge in the set. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that a new set of clubs?
A: Yes.
Q: What was the make?
A: Callaway.
Q: Had you ever used them before?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you get the clubs?
A: Sometime in May.
Q: May of what year?
A: '95--'4.
Q: How did you get them?
MR. BAKER: What do you mean, how did he get them?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you buy them, or were they given to you?
A: They were given to me.
Q: Who gave them to you?
A: Callaway.
Q: The company?
A: Yes.
Q: What representative?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. This is irrelevant.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's not irrelevant.
MR. BAKER: Tell me what relevance it is what representative gave him Callaway golf clubs.
MR. PETROCELLI: We are going to go ask him if it's true.
Q: Who gave it to you?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer it.
THE WITNESS: Callaway. I told you.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: No. What person at Callaway? Eli Callaway himself?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer the question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you ever met Mr. Eli Callaway?
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that. That's irrelevant.
MR. PETROCELLI: What are the objections, just for the record?
MR. BAKER: It's irrelevant. It's irrelevant and immaterial to any issue in this case.
MR. PETROCELLI: You are mistaken, but we will proceed.
Q: From what location in your Rockingham property did you hit those golf balls?
A: My front yard.
Q: On the grass?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you tee them up?
A: No.
Q: You just put them on the grass?
A: Just dropped them on the grass.
Q: Did you take full swings?
A: Once or twice I did, yes.
Q: And were you hitting in the direction of Rockingham, Ashford or someplace else?
A: A couple in the direction of--in the direction of Rockingham but not to Rockingham, and a couple in the direction of Ashford.
Q: Which ones did you take the full swing, which direction?
A: Ashford.
Q: Is there a clearing where you can hit the ball far without hitting anything?
A: Not really.
Q: Did it hit anything?
A: No.
Q: In other words, when you took the full swing and hit those balls with your pitching wedge, did you hear any sound when the ball landed?
A: No.
Q: Okay. How far do you hit a full pitching wedge?
A: It depends.
Q: How far--
A: Full swing, you mean?
Q: Full swing, yeah.
A: It depends. If I'm trying to hit a full-swing pitching wedge, anywhere from 120 to 130 yards. If I'm trying to make it into a sand wedge, a lot less.
Q: Is that what you were trying to do?
A: Yes.
Q: So by taking less than a full swing?
A: No. By changing your grip and the head of the club.
Q: Is that what you did when you took those full cuts?
A: Yes.
Q: You imitated a sand wedge swing, in other words?
A: Yeah. I was trying to get it up, the ball up.
Q: Did you take a divot in your grass?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did the club dig up any grass or dirt?
A: I just don't recall if I took a divot. I don't normally take divots, but I don't recall. I'm sure there was, but --some grass taken up, but...
Q: You hit two or three balls in that direction?
A: Yeah. I mean, just a couple. I chipped a couple real--five or six yards, brought them back, then I hit a couple into the sand and a couple-you know, when I say "a couple," two or three one way and then whatever was left the other way.
Q: Now, you said you first chipped a couple of balls five or six yards away. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Where did they land? In the yard?
A: Which ones?
Q: The ones you chipped five or six yards away.
A: Yeah, right on the grass.
Q: On the grass.
A: Yeah.
Q: Then did you hit those balls into the sand?
A: Yeah.
Q: What sand are you referring to?
A: My playground.
Q: Where the kids play? A: Uh-huh. I skulled one of them and it hit the equipment, I don't know where it went.
Q: Made a loud sound?
A: Yeah.
Q: It bounced someplace, and you didn't retrieve it?
A: True.
Q: Do you know if it stayed on the property?
A: I don't know that one. I don't know.
Q: You skulled it--
A: Sculled it.
Q:--meaning you made more solid contact with the ball than you intended. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And the other balls landed in the sand?
A: I believe so, in or around there. Within the walls of the property, I'm pretty sure. They could have hit into the ivy there, but this should have been inside of the property.
Q: Did you then take some cuts in the sand?
A: Oh, no. No.
Q: As though you were in a sand trap.
A: No. No. I just left them there.
Q: You left the balls in the sand trap --in the sand?
A: Wherever they went, I--
Q: Did they land in the sand?
A: I don't know. One of them should have, at least, but I really don't know.
Q: Wherever they landed, you didn't retrieve them.
A: Correct.
Q: And then you said you took some fuller swings and hit the remaining balls?
A: Yeah, one or two. I don't really recall. But one or two I tried to hit over my tree into the yard across Ashford.
Q: As though you were taking a sand --a shot with a sand wedge. Right?
A: For the most part, yeah.
Q: And how far did that ball travel?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you have any estimation?
A: No.
Q: Under a hundred yards?
A: I would think so, yes.
Q: Between 50 and 70?
A: 40 and 70, I would say.
Q: Between 40 and 70.
A: I hope so.
Q: And the other ball, not that one that you tried to hit over the tree, where did you hit that one when you were taking a full swing?
MR. BAKER: I don't know. I thought that's what you were just talking about.
MR. PETROCELLI: He said he hit one ball high 40 to 70 yards.
Q: Right?
A: Both of them about the same, but as I said, one of them may have gotten through and one of them may not have. I don't recall.
Q: Gotten through where?
A: One of my big trees that are on my property.
Q: I see. If it did not get through the big tree, would it have landed somewhere in your property?
A: It could have gone through, but it didn't clear the big tree. I do this all the time, so it's hard to recall if that moment that was the exact one, but I do know I hit something over to Mrs. Nebeker's, because it's my practice to always do that.
Q: Over to Mrs. what?
A: Nebeker's yard.
Q: How do you spell that name?
A: I don't know.
Q: Could you say it a little more slowly?
A: Nebeker.
Q: Has Mrs. Nebeker ever talked to you about your hitting golf balls there?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever spoken to her about the fact that you've done that?
A: She's seen me actually on her-in her yard hitting balls many, many times.
Q: And she has never said anything to you about it?
A: She likes to talk to me, but she's no longer living, but she would sit in her front door.
Q: When did she die?
A: I think early '94.
Q: And who was living at that property when you hit the golf balls in that direction?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Was the house vacant?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you ever hit her with a golf ball?
MR. BAKER: You don't have to answer that.
You couldn't resist. Is that the reason that she passed--
THE WITNESS: No, that's not the reason.
MR. PETROCELLI: That is where he was going with it, but I didn't even have the nerve to ask that.
Q: Did you take any other shots of a greater distance than chipping--
A: No.
Q:--other than the two over the big tree?
A: No. No. The one or two, as I said, but no.
Q: What time was it when you did that?
A: I believe around or a little after 10:00 o'clock.
Q: What fixes that time in your mind?
A: Nothing in particular, except I knew I was back from having a burger, and then I just know when I got upstairs --it wasn't but 15 or 20 after 10:00 by the time I got upstairs, so I knew it had to--and other than turning lights out in my house, I can't imagine--I don't recall doing anything else before I got upstairs.
Q: Was there any light on your property where you hit the golf balls?
A: Yeah.
Q: And what was illuminating that area?
A: It's not that it was illuminating the area, but it was illuminating--there is a light in a tree that's right above where I was hitting, and my garage was open.
Q: When you hit the balls on the grass, it was near the big tree?
A: Well, yeah.
Q: And -
MR. BAKER: "Near" is all relative.
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me?
MR. BAKER: "Near" is all relative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: How many yards were you from the big tree?
A: From the base of the big tree?
Q: Yes.
A: Seven, eight, ten maybe.
Q: Okay.
A: Whatever the width of my driveway is. It's on the other side of my driveway, and whatever the width of the driveway.
Q: Right on the other side of the driveway?
A: Yeah. But the tree hangs over, you know, so the light would be hanging over a little more than the base of the tree.
Q: Was it light out where you were hitting?
A: The way it is always in my front yard. I wouldn't call it light, but I can hit a couple of balls away.
Q: Now, this light, is this actually in the tree, the light?
A: Yes.
Q: How does the light get turned on?
A: It's on automatic.
Q: Was there any other light illuminating that area where you were hitting the golf balls?
A: Maybe coming from my garage a little bit. When you say "illuminating" an area, it wasn't like shining on the area, but I could see what I was doing.
Q: Okay. Was there any other light besides that tree light that would have enabled you to see what you were doing?
MR. BAKER: And the garage light coming from his garage?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, the garage light--
A: Yeah, the garage light. And I don't know. I think I have a little walkway light that was in front of me, but I don't think it does much illuminating.
Q: Was the garage door open or closed?
A: Open.
Q: The garage door was open.
A: Yeah.
Q: And the garage light was on in it?
A: Yes.
Q: When that garage light is on, it passes some light out of the garage and near this area--
A: Yeah.
Q: where you were hitting the golf balls?
A: It's not a spotlight or anything, but yes.
Q: Were there any other lights on outside the property or from inside the house that would cast light onto the area where the golf balls were?
MR. BAKER: By that you are excluding streetlights?
MR. PETROCELLI: Any lights.
MR. BAKER: Because you said "inside the house" and--
MR. PETROCELLI: I guess I was excluding streetlights.
THE witnesS: I don't know. The coach lights may have been on in the front of my door.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What are coach lights?
A: Two lights that hang on the outside of the front door at my entryway there.
Q: Were they on?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do they go on automatically?
A: No.
Q: You have to turn them on?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: Where is the light switch?
A: Right inside of my front door.
Q: Inside the house.
A: Yes.
Q: And how do you turn the garage light on that was on? Inside the garage?
A: No. One portion comes on automatically; and the other portion, as you enter the garage, you have to turn --the back portion you have to turn on, and then the front portion comes on as the garage door comes up.
Q: One of those Genie--
A: Yeah.
Q: --electric garage doors?
A: Yeah.
Q: When the garage door opens auto---with a remote control or a clicker on the wall?
A: Yeah.
Q: There is a light on, and that stays on at all times?
A: What do you mean?
Q: In other words, there is a light on in the mechanism, the garage door mechanism. Correct?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: And when you open the garage door, this light goes on. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Does that light stay on as long as the garage door is open?
A: I don't know.
Q: Or does the light go off after a few minutes?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you have the same garage door opener now?
A: Yes. a Do you have the same garage door--
A: Yes.
Q:--and same equipment?
A: Yes.
Q: The other light, in the back of the garage, you have to manually turn on. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that light on?
A: Yes.
Q: When was the last time before June 12th that you hit golf balls at around 10:00 o'clock at night from your property at Rockingham?
A: I spent most of April in Puerto Rico, so probably--I don't know if it would be 10:00 o'clock, but certainly at night many times.
Q: When was the last time of the many times?
A: I have no--I don't recall.
Q: The last time before June 12th.
A: I don't recall.
Q: You can't give me a single day?
A: I can't recall.
Q: Was it the day--night before?
A: No.
Q: Was it in June of 1994?
A: It may have been in June.
Q: What night?
A: I don't know.
Q: You want to look at your calendar? Would that help you?
A: No.
Q: Maybe by refreshing your recollection as to whether you were in town or not?
A: I don't get what you're saying.
Q: Well, take a look at 8-A and look at June and tell me what evening before June 12 you last hit golf balls at Rockingham.
A: I told you I may have. It's something I do often. So I don't have any specific memory, but I know I would have because it's something that I do often. I don't know about 10:00 p.m. Certainly I drop balls and hit them all the time. I actually had a net that I put up on my garage and hit off a mat into my garage. As late as midnight I've done that. So--
Q: Is the net still there?
A: I'm sure it's hanging around somewhere, because I've bought new nets. I've bought two new nets, I know, in the last--since I'd gotten back home that time, I had bought two new nets to put in various places on my property.
Q: What nets were up at the property on June 12?
A: They weren't up. It was something you would have to hang.
Q: You had nets, but they were not hanging on June 12. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes.
Q: Where were the nets?
A: I don't know. Probably around my garage somewhere.
Q: When was the last time you hung those nets to use them before June 12?
A: Sometime in May I may have done it in my backyard.
Q: Do you have a specific recollection of doing it in May?
A: No. But since it's something that I've done so much over the last 10 years, I'm sure I must have, you know.
Q: When you hit into the net, you're not hitting the balls off the property. Right? You're n hitting them into the net. Correct?
A: Yeah, but normally I would take one or two because I want to do something, hit them somewhere. yeah.
Q: Do you have a specific recollection in June, prior to June 12, of hitting golf balls at night?
A: Not in June. Not in June, I don't, no.
Q: Do you have a specific recollection of hitting golf balls at night from your property in May of 1994?
A: Specific, no, but I can -I'm pretty sure I did, but I don't have any specific recollection, no.
Q: And do you have a specific recollection of hitting golf balls at night from your property in April of 1994?
A: I was never in L A. in April.
Q: In March of 1994?
A: When you say "specific," I don't know the specific day, but I know I did in March. I know for sure I did on numerous occasions.
Q: Did you ever do so with another person?
A: No.
Q: Can you identify a single person--
A: Well, no, that's wrong. Yes.
Q: Okay. Who?
A: Justin.
Q: Your--
A: My son.
Q:--younger boy?
A: Yes.
Q: He was with you on one occasion when you were hitting golf balls at night at your property?
A: He's been with me on numerous occasions when I've done that, yes.
Q: When was the last time?
A: I don't recall--last time?
Q: Withdrawn. When was the last time before June 12, 1994 that Justin was with you at night at Rockingham hitting golf balls?
A: I don't know.
Q: And do you have a specific recollection that he was with you in June hitting golf balls at night?
A: I told you I didn't think I hit any balls other than that night.
Q: So maybe going back to March?
A: Possibly to March, yes. Possibly March. Possibly February, possibly, yes.
Q: Did Justin also hit golf balls, too?
A: Yes.
Q: Off the property like you were doing?
A: No. He's just gotten to the point where he can hit it on the property.
Q: Were these situations where you were just hitting into the net or actually taking a couple and hitting them out?
A: Well, yeah. Normally--
MR. BAKER: And you are talking about instances with--
MR. PETROCELLI: With Justin.
MR. BAKER: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: If he's hitting, because only one of us could hit into the net, I might drop a ball or two and chip it over the wall or chip it somewhere, yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And he saw you do that?
A: I'm sure he did, yes.
Q: Besides Justin, is there any other person who in 1994 before June 12 saw you hit golf balls from your property at night?
A: What do you mean, from my property?
Q: Hitting golf balls on your property like you said you were doing on June 12.
A: I would imagine a housekeeper must have seen me. Nicole obviously seen me many times. I don't know. Whoever was around. Probably my housekeeper. Probably Michelle more than Gigi, but possibly Gigi.
Q: Was there any other person besides Justin who ever participated in that with you?
A: What do you mean?
Q: Hitting golf balls at night at your property in the year 1994.
A: Not that I recall, no.
Q: Now, have you ever seen--Withdrawn. Do you know whether any of those golf balls that you said you were chipping around the yard were ever retrieved by anybody?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Who retrieved them?
A: I believe LAPD.
Q: How do you know that?
A: Because I have a--some memory that I read a report that they did.
Q: And have you ever seen those golf balls?
A: No.
Q: Did LAPD ever bring them into the courtroom, or did anybody else ever bring them into the courtroom?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Did you ever say to somebody, "Hey, get those golf balls for me; bring them to court"?
A: For what?
Q: Did you ever request that they be brought to court?
A: No.
Q: And what is this document where you read at the golf balls were retrieved from your property?
A: In some form of discovery.
Q: Do you know whether the golf balls that you read in this report that were retrieved from your property were the ones that you hit on the evening of June 12 as opposed to some prior occasion?
A: No.
Q: Did you hit Maxfli 100s on June 12 on your property?
A: One might have been. They might have been. It was just the scuffed balls that I hit away. I just looking for scuffs more than anything.
Q: When you were going into your golf bag, you said you picked out Maxfli 100s.
A: Yes.
Q: I am talking about the bag of balls in the Bentley trunk.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: So I take it all these balls, then, were Maxfli 100s.
A: No.
Q: You also picked out other balls as well?
A: I probably hit away some other balls, yes.
Q: Were you picking out balls to hit in the yard that were not Maxfli 100s?
A: I was picking balls out to take with me were Maxfli 100s. Whatever I grabbed to hit away were scuffed balls, and I just hit them away.
Q: So you have no way then, of knowing whether these balls that you read about in the LAPD report are the actual balls you hit that night. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Did you ever ask anybody to go look for those balls that you hit that evening on the property?
A: No.
Q: Now, the balls that you hit--Withdrawn. The club you used to hit those balls was the pitching wedge Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And was that wedge seized by the LAPD?
A: I think at some point, yes
Q: And did you get it back yet?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: When did you get that wedge back?
A: I think when I was in jail.
Q: They returned it to whom?
A: To Rockingham, I assume.
Q: All the clubs were returned?
A: I never really checked to see, but I'm assuming, of that group of clubs, I'm assuming they were, yes.
Q: Where is this pitching wedge now?
A: I hope in my garage.
Q: Have you used it since that evening when you hit golf balls on June 12, 1994?
A: I might have.
Q: Do you remember using it?
A: I might have. I don't know. We hit a lot of balls in the front yard. So, I mean, I grab a club; some of my security; I grab a club; even some of my lawyers have grabbed a club. So, you know...
Q: You are saying since you were--
A: Even some of my lawyers have taken some clubs.
MR. BAKER: We don't need to put this on the record.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let the record reflect that the witness looked towards the general direction of Mr. Baker.
Q: Have you hit any golf balls at night from the Rocking---at your Rockingham property since you were released from jail?
A: Yes.
Q: And have you done so with other persons?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: Security. And I don't know if you guys were around. Whoever was around.
Q: How many times did you do that?
A: How many times I've done it since I've been back?
Q: Since you got out of jail, at night at Rockingham, 10:00 o'clock.
A: Oh, Jesus, 10:00 o'clock--
Q: 9:00,10:00 o'clock or later.
A: After dark.
Q: After dark.
A: After dark, three or four times.
Q: And every time was with someone else?
A: Well, every time somebody was there. I mean, I have security there that's full time now. A few times they were there.
Q: And they saw you do it?
A: Oh, yeah.
Q: Who were the security personnel?
A: I can't give you any last names, but Thomas, Jeff, Dave.
Q: Who were the lawyers?
A: Phil Baker, Bob Baker. Bob Blasier, I'm not sure.
Q: Did the lawyers also swing the clubs?
A: Yes.
Q: And were you--
A: Not all the time. You're talking on at least one occasion or something.
Q: Were any of these incidents when you hit golf balls from Rockingham, after you got out of jail, for the purpose of demonstrating what you were doing on the evening of June 12?
MR. BAKER: Well, you can talk about--don't answer that question, but you can talk about anything other than any demonstrations that your lawyers had you do.
THE WITNESS: After dark, no.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: But before dark, yes?
MR. BAKER: Well, don't answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You want to answer that?
MR. BAKER: No, he not going to answer that
MR. PETROCELLI: I think what he does, Mr. Baker, is not a communication--demonstrations are not protected, but I am not going to convince you, I can see.
MR. BAKER: No, you're not.
MR. PETROCELLI: We will just have to take it to the judge.
MR. BAKER: Fair enough.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
Q: I would like to show you some photographs, which I would like to mark--I guess we will start with Exhibit 22.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 22 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
MR. PETROCELLI: I will have to make copies.
Q: I would like to show you what I will mark as Exhibit 22, a photograph of--a photograph.
Hold on for a second, Mr. Simpson.
(Pause in the proceedings.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, now that the lawyers have seen this, let me show you Exhibit 22. What is that a picture of?
A: A golf bag.
Q: Is that the golf bag that you took to Chicago on June 12?
A: It appears to be, yes.
Q: And does this contain the clubs that you had recently received from Callaway about a month before?
A: I really can't tell, but they--I see one or two of the clubs look like Callaway Big Bertha irons, and that would be the type of irons that I had.
Q: This was a new set of irons you had gotten?
A: Yes.
Q: Were the woods new also?
A: No.
Q: And the putter?
A: No.
Q: When you took this--it was a Swiss Army golf bag. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that made by the Forschner Company?
A: I doubt it.
Q: Have anything to do with Forschner?
A: Well, Swiss Army is.
Q: Is that something that is placed on the bag?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: Oh, I see. When you went to Chicago, you put this bag in what you called a cover bag. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Was this the -Had you used these clubs earlier on the day of June 12?
A: Yes.
Q: This exact set of clubs?
A: Well, if that's the clubs. yes
Q: And had you used them the day before, on June 11th?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you used them, you went to play locally at Riviera correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Both on June 11 and June 12 Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: When you used them on those occasions, you did not have a black --excuse me--you didn't have a cover bag. Correct?
A: Didn't have a travel bag, no.
Q: Where was your cover bag?
A: In the entry of my house.
Q: Kept there on June 11 and June 12?
A: Correct.
Q: What car did you use to drive to the golf course on June 11?
A: I don't know.
Q: What are the choices?
A: Bentley or Bronco.
Q: You don't remember which one you used?
A: No.
Q: What did you use on June 12?
A: Bronco.
Q: Where were you--Strike that. Where did you put this golf bag with all the clubs in it into the cover bag?
MR. BAKER: The location where he was when he inserted it?
MR. PETROCELLI: Correct.
THE WITNESS: In front of my house or at the entry portion of my house.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You took the golf clubs to the entryway of your house?
A: Yeah, at the entry, and then the cover was still there because I had taken it off Saturday morning there.
Q: The entryway was inside the house. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: On the floor?
A: That--yeah.
Q: In a closet?
A: No.
Q: Just lying there?
A: Yes.
Q: Just on the other side of the front door?
A: Yes.
Q: If you opened the front door, would it hit the golf cover bag?
A: If it spread out, maybe, but I don't think it was then. It was to the-facing the front door, to the left.
Q: Against the wall?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And you took your golf clubs inside the house and put the cover bag on?
A: I don't think so. I think I brought the cover bag out.
Q: Right outside the front door?
A: Yes.
Q: In the entry--What do you call that area right outside the front door?
A: My entry. Front--not the foyer, but the entry.
Q: You put the cover bag on at that time. Right? Or at that location, I should say.
A: Yes.
Q: What time was that?
A: That was between--that was before I went to McDonald's, so that would have been before 9:00 o'clock.
Q: When you put the cover bag over the golf clubs, did the cover bag also have another pair of shoes in it?
A: It may have. Or the golf bag may have had a pair of shoes in it.
Q: This golf bag had a pair of shoes in it?
A: It could have. I'm not sure right now. I don't recall.
Q: Did you put another pair of shoes in the cover bag?
A: Another pair of shoes ended up in the cover bag. I didn't specifically put them in the cover bag, but at some point obviously I had, but there was definitely a pair of shoes in the outer cover bag, yes.
Q: When did you put those shoes in he outer cover bag?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you do it on the evening of June 12?
A: I went to make sure that they were in there on the evening of June 12, and they were.
Q: When you took the cover bag off two or three days before, were the shoes in the cover bag from your prior trip?
A: They could have been, because I did take them with me on the prior trip.
Q: You don't remember one way or the other?
A: No.
Q: And did this bag have a place where you could put the shoes and the shoe bag?
A: If I wanted to, yes.
Q: And where was that? Can you point to it?
A: This zipper that comes down, it could have gone in right there (Indicating).
Q: Under where it says "Swiss Army"?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you put the golf bag into the cover bag shortly before you went to McDonald's--is that what you said?
A: Yes.
Q: Around 9:00 p.m.?
A: Well, before I went, yes.
Q: Shortly before you went? A: I don't know about shortly, but sometime before I went, yes.
Q: What time was it?
A: I don't know. It was sometime between 7:00 and 9:00.
Q: You can't fix it any closer than that?
A: Cannot fix it any closer than that.
Q: So any time between 7:00 and 9:00 o'clock is when you put the golf bag into the cover bag.
A: That's correct.
Q: And when you did that, what did you do with the cover bag that had the golf clubs in it?
A: Put them on my bench.
Q: Outside the front door?
A: That's correct.
Q: And it stayed there?
A: Yes. For a while.
Q: For a while.
A: Yeah. Till we took them off the bench.
Q: To go into the limousine.
A: No. A little bit before I went into the limousine.
Q: But once you closed up that cover bag between 7:00 and 9:00 o'clock, you never opened it again. Correct?
A: Incorrect.
Q: Why did you open it?
A: I wanted to make sure I had my black shoes in there.
Q: Golf shoes?
A: Yes.
Q: And were they in there?
A: Yes.
Q: And are those the shoes in the coverbag or the shoes in the golfbag?
A: Cover bag.
Q: So you opened it one time, looked in the coverbag, saw the shoes, closed it, and then you did not open it again. Correct?
A: Until when?
Q: Until you got to Chicago.
A: No, that's not correct.
Q: Until you got into the limousine.
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. Focusing up until the time when you left the Rockingham property in the limousine on June 12, you did not open that cover bag again after you looked and checked for the black shoes. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And when was it that you looked and checked for the black shoes?
A: Somewhere around 11:00 o'clock or-somewhere around 11:00 o'clock. That's a guess.
Q: That's your best guess?
A: Yeah. Shortly before I left to go-before we drove out of my driveway.
Q: When you looked for the shoes, was the limo already there?
A: Yes.
Q: And it was past the gate?
A: No.
Q: It was still on the other side of the gate?
A: That's right.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 23 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Let me show you what has been marked as Exhibit 23.
Mr. Simpson, I am showing you a photograph marked as Exhibit 23. Can you identify what is in that photograph?
A: It appears to be a Swiss Army cover travel bag.
Q: And is that the travel bag that you have been referring to? Excuse me. Is that the bag you've been referring to so far as a "cover bag"?
A: One like this, yes.
Q: Is that the exact one?
A: I don't know.
Q: Does it look like it?
A: Yes.
Q: That's the bag that you just testified about. Correct?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Bag that he just testified about?
MR. PETROCELLI: Cover bag.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe so.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, pointing to this cover bag, where do you open the zipper to look for the shoes? Or where did you open the zipper to look for the shoes?
A: I really can't make it out here. Wherever you open the zipper to put the clubs in is the zipper that I opened to look for the shoes.
Q: There is another compartment in there for the shoes? There is another compartment inside the coverbag--
A: No.
Q: --for the shoes?
A: No.
Q: Just lying loose in there?
A: Yeah, lying loose.
Q: Is that a blue cover bag?
A: No.
Q: What color is it?
A: Black.
Q: And the golf bag is black, too. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Let me show you the next photograph, which I will mark as Exhibit 24.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 24 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you recognize what is depicted in that photograph?
A: Yes.
Q: What is that?
A: A Louis Vuitton travel bag--
Q: And that was--Excuse me. I'm sorry.
A: Suitcase.
Q: Is that the Louis Vuitton suitcase that you took to Chicago?
A: One like this. Possibly this could be it.
Q: And that's the--When you went to Chicago, you've already said you didn't have your new suit in there. Right?
MR. BAKER: He didn't say it was new. He said he didn't have a suit in there.
MR. PETROCELLI: You are correct.
Q: You did not have your suit in there.
A: That's correct.
Q: Was it a new suit?
A: All my clothes are relatively new, yes.
Q: What was in this Louis Vuitton bag when you went to Chicago?
A: Couple of golf outfits, maybe a T-shirt or two, some underwear. maybe a pair of shoes--
Q: Dress shoes?
A: Yes, I believe so. I'm not a hundred percent sure if I didn't try to double up the shoes I was wearing as dress shoes.
Q: Anything else?
A: That would be about it.
Q: And everything that you went to Chicago with you came back with in the Louis Vuitton bag except that you also added the suit?
A: That's correct.
Q: And also the garment bag in which the suit was located?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. Did you come back with the same clothes that you went to Chicago on?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: You mean was he wearing the same clothes?
MR. PETROCELLI: Withdrawn.
Q: Were you wearing the same clothes back to Chicago that--back to Los Angeles that you had worn to Chicago?
A: No.
Q: Wearing different clothes?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you wear to Chicago on the evening of June 12?
A: I believe some jeans, white shirt and jean jacket, and I may have had a windbreaker with me. Not a windbreaker, but a wet jacket.
Q: What were the -Were these stone-washed jeans?
A: Yes.
Q: What was the -who was the manufacturer?
A: I don't know.
Q: Were they Guess? jeans?
A: I don't know.
Q: What kind of jeans do you usually wear?
A: All kinds.
Q: You don't remember?
A: I do remember.
Q: What jeans they were?
A: All kinds of jeans I have in my home.
Q: You don't remember what particular style this was?
A: No. No. No, I don't.
Q: Did you have any socks on?
A: I don't think so.
Q: What kind of shoes did you have on?
A: Some loafers.
Q: What color were they?
A: Black or blue.
Q: What size were they?
A: I don't know.
Q: Which size did you wear in 1994?
MR. BAKER: We've been through the size. You asked that yesterday.
MR. PETROCELLI: No, I never asked that.
MR. BAKER: You never asked the size shoes he has?
MR. MEDVENE: No.
MR. BAKER: It's no big deal. I will let him answer, anyway.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me rephrase --or reask the question.
Q: In June of 1994 what size shoes did you wear?
A: Depends what shoe I was wearing. I could wear 12s, 11-1/2s, some 13s.
Q: What size shoes--what type of shoes did you wear in size 12?
A: Depends on the shoe make and the shoe.
Q: What size--what type and make of shoes did you own at that time in size 12?
A: Loafers. I would imagine some loafers were 12s, some tie-ups and tennis shoes.
Q: Were most of your shoes that you owned in June of 1994 size 12?
A: I would say so, yes.
Q: And you also said you had some size 11-1/2s?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: What shoes did you have of that size in June of 1994?
A: Probably tennis shoes and one or two pairs of loafers.
Q: Are these shoes gifts to you, these 11-1/2s?
A: Not necessarily, no.
Q: Why did you have some 11-1/2s?
A: Because that's what they were.
Q: You tried them on--
A: Yeah.
Q:--and you bought them?
A: Yeah.
Q: And they fit?
A: Yeah.
Q: These particular tennis shoes and one or two loafers.
A: Yeah.
Q: What was the width of your shoe size--
A: I don't know.
Q: --in June of 1994?
A: I don't know.
Q: What is it now?
A: I don't know.
Q: You have no idea?
A: None.
Q: When you go into a shoe store and ask the salesman for shoes, do you give him a width size?
A: No.
Q: You just say, "Give me a size 12"?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you also have some size 13s?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Is that what you said?
A: Yes.
Q: What shoes in June of 1994 were size 13s?
A: Some golf shoes.
Q: Did you own a brand-new pair of Nike golf shoes in June of 1994, white?
A: Could very well.
Q: Do you pay for your golf shoes, or are they given to you?
A: Sometimes I pay. Sometimes they're given to me.
Q: Do you remember a pair of white Nike golf shoes that you owned in June--
A: Not particularly.
Q: --in June of 1994?
A: Not particularly, but I'm sure--I like Nike golf shoes, so I'm sure I probably had a pair.
Q: Are all your -Withdrawn. Were all of your--Withdrawn. Were all of your golf shoes In June of 1994 size 13?
A: No.
Q: What were the other sizes?
A: I don't know. I'd have to look at them. Some probably were 12, for sure, and I would have to look at them.
Q: How many pairs of golf shoes did you own in June of 1994?
A: Guess?
Q: Excuse me?
A: Guess?
Q: Guess?
A: You want me to make a Guess?
Q: No. Your best recollection.
A: It would be my best guess.
Q: Well, tell me.
A: 10. No. 15.
Q: 15?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: He didn't ask you that.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
10 to 15.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: 10 to 15 . And where are--where were they maintained or kept in June of 1994?
A: Some in my home; some at my country club; some at my other country club; some at my other home.
Q: What are your two country clubs? What were they then?
A: Riviera--in LA., Riviera--that I was a member of, Riviera, Sherwood, Mountain Gate, even though I didn't keep nothing at Mountain Gate, and then there's courses around the country.
MR. BAKER: Why don't we take 10 minutes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
MR. BREWER: These are country clubs where you were a member. Is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 2 of Volume II. The time is approximately 2:39, and we are off the record.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 3:03. This is the beginning of tape No. 3 of Volume II.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: We were talking about the clothing that you wore to Chicago, and you said you had the jeans and the loafers, and then we talked a little bit about the shoes.
You said you also were wearing a shirt?
A: Pardon me?
Q: You also were wearing a shirt when you went to Chicago on June 12?
A: Yes.
Q: What kind of shirt?
A: Jean. A jean shirt.
Q: J-e-a-n, jean shirt?
A: Yes.
Q: What was the manufacturer? Do you know?
A: No .
Q: The brand?
A: I don't know.
Q: What color was it?
A: Blue. Stone-washed blue.
Q: Did you have an undershirt?
A: No. I had on a golf shirt, I believe, underneath it.
Q: Underneath the -this blue stone-washed shirt you had a golf shirt?
A: Yeah.
Q: What color was the golf shirt?
A: White. Q: What was the brand, if any?
A: I don't know.
Q: And then you had a jacket on?
A: Actually I used the jean shirt as a jacket, but I had a jacket with me also, yes.
Q: That you carried with you?
A: I can't recall if I put it in the bag or carried it with me, but I had sort of a golf wet jacket with me.
Q: A windbreaker, you said earlier?
A: Yeah. Yeah. It's a golf jacket. Windbreaker's a description. There was another thing that was a windbreaker, Hertz windbreaker.
Q: And what was the color of that jacket?
A: Blue or green.
Q: Did I show you a picture of that jacket earlier today?
A: Could have been.
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: Which jacket are we talking about? He's got the windbreaker and Hertz jacket.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to get it out right now.
MR. BAKER: Thank you.
MR. PETROCELLI: I need to find the original.
MR. BAKER: It's 10, I think.
MR. PETROCELLI: Might be 10. Yeah. One second.
Q: Let me show you what has been previously marked as Exhibit 10, a photograph of a jacket. Is that the jacket you took?
A: It could have been.
Q: And did you carry it, or did you have it in the Louis Vuitton bag or someplace else?
A: It wouldn't have been in the Louis Vuitton bag.
Q: So if it wasn't--you were not carrying it in your hand, in which bag would this jacket have been?
A: I could have carried it, and I could have just slid it into the suit bag that I had.
Q: With the suit?
A: With the suit, yeah. Just, you know, unzip it, lay it in there and zip it up.
Q: In that suit bag there was surely a suit. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Pants and matching jacket?
A: Yes.
Q: On a wooden hanger?
A: Yes.
Q: And anything else in that bag besides the possibility of this windbreaker?
A: Shirt and tie.
Q: Shirt and tie.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Anything else?
A: No.
Q: What is your best recollection: That you carried the windbreaker or you packed it?
A: I don't know. I really don't. I didn't pack it then, but I could have thrown it in there, you know. I could have just laid it in there so I wouldn't have to carry it on the airplane.
Q: When you said you didn't "pack it then," what did you mean by "then"?
A: Well, you're talking about packing the Louis Vuitton bag. I packed the Louis Vuitton bag in my home, and I didn't have it up in my home when I was packing the Louis Vuitton bag.
Q: Where was it?
A: In my Bronco.
Q: That windbreaker was in your Bronco?
A: I believe so, if that was the one, yes.
Q: And you were packing the Louis Vuitton bag in your bedroom.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you wear the windbreaker that day playing golf?
A: No.
Q: The day before?
A: No.
Q: What time did you pack the Louis Vuitton bag?
A: I would say right up to almost 11:00 o'clock.
Q: When did you start packing it?
A: Technically?
Q: What does that mean?
A: Technically, I put something in it. First time I put something in it, somewhere between 8:00 and--somewhere between 7:30 or so and 9:00 o'clock.
Q: Where was the Louis Vuitton bag in your home before you began to pack?
A: In my closet in my bedroom.
Q: When you took it out of your closet, what time was it?
A: After 10:00 o'clock.
Q: What is your best estimate after 10:00 o 'clock what time it was when you took the Louis Vuitton bag out of the closet?
A: I don't know.
Q: When you took that bag out of your closet, you then put it on your bed?
A: Yes.
Q: And you opened it up?
A: No. It was open.
Q: It was open in the closet.
A: Yes.
Q: And there was nothing in it. Correct?
A: I think some underwear and some socks.
Q: From a prior trip?
A: No.
Q: When did the underwear and the socks get into the Louis Vuitton bag when it was open in the closet?
A: Somewhere between 7:30 and 9 o'clock.
Q: And--
A: That's a guess.
Q: What is your best estimate of the time when--Back up. When did the socks and underwear go into the Louis Vuitton bag?
MR. BAKER: He just answered that question.
MR. PETROCELLI: Is that right?
THE WITNESS: Somewhere between 7:30 and 9:00 o'clock.
MR. LEONARD: Yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And when you put the socks and underwear into the Louis Vuitton bag from where did you retrieve the bag?
A: From my closet.
Q: And it was open in the closet?
A: I opened it in the closet, yes.
Q: You can pack in your closet. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: You can bowl in your closet.
MR. PETROCELLI: You have to understand, I have one of those little closets where it's about eight inches deep, you know.
MR. BAKER: But you're a mere mortal.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So you have a walk-in closet. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Off of your bedroom. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: At some time between 7:30 and 9:00 you went into your closet, and you picked up the bag from the floor?
A: No. From a shelf.
Q: From a shelf.
A: Yes.
Q: And the bag was empty at that time. Correct?
A: I'm not so sure of that.
Q: What was in it?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you have any--do you have reason to believe that it was not empty?
A: It could have not been empty, yes.
Q: What could have been in it?
A: Dirty clothes.
Q: Did you take the dirty clothes out?
A: If they were in there?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you put them, if you did so?
A: In my hamper.
Q: Where is your hamper?
A: In my bathroom.
Q: Next to the closet?
A: Yeah.
Q: Now, do you have a place in your closet where you pack, lay the bag out, open and pack?
A: Not always, but sometimes, yes.
Q: On this occasion did you pack in the closet?
A: Partially, yes.
Q: And what location in the closet?
A: On the floor.
Q: You laid the bag down on the floor. Correct?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: If there were dirty clothes, you took those out and put them in the hamper in the bathroom. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: Then you went and took some socks and underwear and put them into the bag. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: How many pairs of socks?
A: I don't know.
Q: How many pairs of underwear?
A: I don't know.
Q: You were only packing for one or two nights. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And after you put the socks and underwear in the Louis Vuitton bag, did you leave the bag there on the floor?
A: Yes.
Q: And then did you resume packing at a later time?
A: Some more packing, yes.
Q: After you put the socks and underwear, did you leave for a while?
A: I don't know if it was directly after I put the socks and underwear, but obviously I came downstairs again, yes.
Q: So after the socks and underwear were in the Louis Vuitton bag, you came downstairs for a while. Right?
A: At some point after, yes, after I put them in there, yes.
Q: And then at some point after 10:00 o'clock p.m., you went back to the closet in the bedroom--
A: Yes.
Q: --and resumed packing.
A: Yes.
Q: And where did you continue packing?
A: I took the Louis Vuitton out of the -out of there, put it on my bed.
Q: Okay. And what did you then put into the Louis Vuitton bag on your bed?
A: Two golf outfits.
Q: "Two golf outfits," meaning--
A: One and then--yeah, eventually two golf outfits, yes. Two golf outfits.
Q: Well, did you pack both of the golf outfits in the Louis Vuitton bag at the same time?
Did you go to your drawers and pull out two shirts and two pants--
A: No.
Q: --and take them to the thing? What did do you?
A: I just looked at what outfits I had hanging there, and one outfit I knew I was taking, and the other outfit I kind of made a last-minute decision.
Q: And what outfit did you know you were taking?
A: Just basic outfit with a Hertz-with a white shirt, black pants, and then I decided to bring a yellow shirt just in case for the Hertz thing.
Q: So the white shirt and black pants you put into the Louis Vuitton bag first when you began repacking after 10:00 o'clock p.m. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you then put into the bag next after the white shirt and black pants?
A: I laid a yellow shirt in there.
Q: A yellow shirt. A golf shirt?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, did you do this right after you put in the white shirt and black pants, or was there a gap?
A: I don't know.
Q: You didn't leave the bedroom, though. Right?
A: No.
Q: Now, what did you put in after the yellow shirt?
A: Maybe a T-shirt.
Q: White T-shirt?
A: Yeah.
Q: An undershirt?
A: Yeah.
Q: And then what?
A: Not much else.
Q: And then you closed the bag up?
A: Yes.
Q: And then did you fold it?
A: Yes.
Q: And left it on the bed?
A: No.
Q: What did you do?
A: Brought it downstairs.
Q: Where?
A: To the front of the house.
Q: And laid it where?
A: Well, he put it in the car the minute I brought it out.
Q: When you started resuming your packing at 10 -sometime after 10:00 o'clock p.m., was the limo driver there yet?
A: Yes.
Q: When you started to pack as you've just described, starting with the white shirt and black pants, the limo driver was already there?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, when you came down the stairs, did you carry that bag down yourself?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you carry anything else down?
A: At that point, maybe my grip.
Q: Your grip was up in your bedroom too?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you then do?
A: Walked out front.
Q: And what did you do next?
A: Put them on the ground.
Q: Where?
A: Front of my house.
Q: Was the car there?
A: Yes.
Q: So you came down the steps--
MR. BAKER: You mean the limo--
MR. PETROCELLI: The limo. I'm sorry.
MR. BAKER-when you say he talked about a car?
MR. PETROCELLI: The limo.
Q: Was the limo there?
A: Yes.
Q: You came down the steps. The front door was open or closed?
A: I believe it was open at that point.
Q: Who opened it?
A: Me.
Q: And was it open the entire time you were packing upstairs?
A: What do you mean by "entire time"?
MR. BAKER: He means from 7:30 till approximately 11:00.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you took the Louis Vuitton bag out of the closet and put it on the bed and started to put in the white shirt and black pants and then the yellow shirt and then the T-shirt, you said that the limo driver was already there.
A: Yeah.
Q: Now, my question to you is: Was the door open during that period of time?
A: Not when I first took it out, no.
Q: When you first took the Louis Vuitton bag out of the closet and put it on the bed--
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: --the front door was open or closed?
A: Closed.
Q: Then you put in the white shirt and black pants and yellow shirt and T-shirt.
When did you open the front door? When you came down with the bag?
A: What bag?
Q: The Louis Vuitton bag.
A: No. Well, I may have opened it. If it was closed again, I would have opened it, yes.
Q: Was the door open or closed when you came downstairs?
A: At that particular time?
Q: To put the bag in the car.
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you make another trip downstairs to open the door?
A: What do you mean?
Q: During the time that you were packing this Louis Vuitton bag.
A: I had just been downstairs a few minutes before.
Q: Are you saying that while you were packing this Louis Vuitton bag as it was on your bed, you made a trip downstairs?
A: Yes.
Q: Before or after you completed packing these items?
A: Before.
Q: You had started to put in these shirts and pants?
A: Yes.
Q: But not completed?
A: Correct.
Q: You had put in the white shirt and black pants and then stopped?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you went downstairs?
A: Yes.
Q: And you opened the door?
A: Yes.
Q: And then what did you do?
A: I looked in my golf bag.
Q: To see if your--
A: Black shoes were there.
Q: And they were.
A: Yes.
Q: And you went upstairs?
A: After I laid it off the bench onto the ground and left my suitbag there, then I went upstairs.
Q: Your golf bag was inside the house. Right?
A: No.
Q: Previously you testified that it was inside the door.
MR. BAKER: No, he did not.
THE WITNESS: That's not correct.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: It was outside. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: You opened the door, it was outside, you looked into it, you left the door open and then took your suit bag out also and put it outside?
MR. BAKER: Let me have that question read back, please.
(Pending question read.)
MR. BAKER: That's compound.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, let me reask it.
Q: You just said you came down, opened the door. The golfbag, which was already in the cover bag--
A: Yes.
Q:--was outside on the ground. Right?
A: No.
Q: On the bench.
A: Yes
Q: Which is outside the door. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you opened it up, looked in --
A: Yes.
Q: and saw your shoes there.
A: Yes.
Q: And you zippered it back up. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you went inside. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you do anything else before you went upstairs?
A: No.
Q: Okay. So you left the door open?
A: I don't recall.
Q: And you went upstairs.
A: Yes.
Q: And you resumed packing the Louis Vuitton bag.
A: Yes.
Q: Put in the yellow shirt and the T-shirt. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Zipped it up--
A: Yes.
Q: -and then came back downstairs?
A: Yes.
Q: And out?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you came out the door, what did you then do?
A: I put the bags down, I looked into my grip--
Q: Put what bags down?
A: Louis Vuitton and my grip. And I looked in my grip, and I was looking for a few things, and I guess I started a conversation with Kato maybe right then or maybe a little later, but Kato was saying something.
Q: I want to be clear about these bags. When you came downstairs, you were carrying your grip and your Louis Vuitton bag. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And the door was open or closed; you don't remember. Correct?
A: No. No, I don't remember.
Q: Then you came out that door, and you are carrying now two bags. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And is your golf bag still on the bench?
A: I think at that point they had already put it in the trunk of the car.
Q: And then you went--What did you do with your two bags?
A: Put them right down on the ground right there.
Q: Right there next to the bench?
A: Well, between the benches, yeah. Between the benches is what that area is, yes.
Q: Between the two benches.
A: Yes.
Q: There is one on either side.
A: Yes.
Q: You dropped the bags down. Did someone come and take them?
A: They grabbed -one of them grabbed the Louis Vuitton bag.
Q: One of whom?
A: Kato or Alan Park.
Q: The limo driver.
A: Yes.
Q: And put that where?
A: They were putting it in the trunk of the car.
Q: And you then looked into your grip, you said?
A: Yes.
Q: And what were you looking for?
A: Whatever I might have forgotten, make sure I had everything.
Q: And did you forget anything?
A: Yes.
Q: What had you forgotten?
A: My cell phone or the parts -other parts of my cell phone.
Q: You mean the battery packs?
A: Yeah. I carry--it comes in a case, and it has another battery and it has a plug-in for a car, and it--what else does it have. A card for all the--you know, just a bunch of stuff. It's a nice little case.
Q: Are we talking about the cell phone that I showed you earlier?
A: Yeah, one like that.
Q: Are we talking about Exhibit 7?
A: Yeah, one like that.
Q: Now, when you looked in your grip, the cell phone was not in it?
A: I don't think so, but it could have, but I know the rest of it wasn't in there.
Q: Meaning the case with the cord?
A: The case with the cord with the other battery wasn't in there.
Q: There was already a battery on the phone itse3f. Right?
A: There's a battery on the phone. There's a charger that's not on the phone, there's another battery that's not on the phone, and then there is a cord that you can use for a cigarette lighter, and mine comes in a nice little case.
Q: Missing from the grip were the charger, the battery, the cord, all of which would be contained--
A: Together.
Q:--in the case.
A: Yes.
Q: What color is that case?
A: Black.
Q: Where is that case normally kept?
A: There is no real normal place. Normally with me. If I'm traveling, it's normally with me in grip.
Q: And when you are not traveling, where did you keep the case at that time?
A: No particular place.
Q: Did you keep it in the car?
A: Well, sometimes if I got in the car and the case was--and I had the case, I'd take it out of the thing and plug it into the car. Wherever I was.
Q: So normally you kept the case in the grip, and the grip was with you?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you take the grip with you to play golf that morning?
A: No.
Q: You left it home?
A: Yeah.
Q: I am talking about the morning of the 12th, of course.
A: Yes.
Q: When you looked into the grip, did anybody see you doing that?
A: It would have been hard for them not to.
Q: That was in the area between the two benches. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you then did not see the case. Correct?
A: Well, I can't recall even if I saw the phone at that point, but I know that those are two things that were --at least the case was missing. I can't recall right now if I saw the phone because I went in the house briefly, and I may have picked the phone up when I went in the house in the kitchen at that point, or the phone was there and then I came back out, and then, you know...
Q: This is all while the limo driver is still there?
A: Yeah. And Kato was walking around.
Q: Now, you usually take the case with you on trips?
A: Yes. That's what it is: A travel case.
Q: And when you looked in your bag, was it your intention to see if the case was there and, if it was not there, to make sure you had it?
A: No.
Q: What was your intention?
A: Just to see if I had everything.
Q: When you saw that the case was missing, you decided you wanted to get it?
A: Yes.
Q: You wanted to bring the case with you.
A: Yes.
Q: And the phone. Correct?
A: Of course.
Q: And did you do so?
A: Yes.
Q: You brought the case and the phone?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And did you put the phone into the case?
A: At some point, yes.
Q: Did you do that before you got into the limo?
A: I don't remember.
Q: And did you then go retrieve the case someplace?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you go get the case?
A: In the Bronco.
Q: Where in the Bronco was the case?
A: On the seat, on the other seat in the Bronco.
Q: On the passenger seat?
A: Yes.
Q: Just sitting there?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that where you normally keep it?
A: It depends.
Q: Is that where you used to keep it at the time?
A: Just depends.
Q: Depends on what?
A: Depends on where I put it down.
Q: So you don't have a regular habit --
A: No.
Q: -of putting it in a particular place in the Bronco. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you use that case that day?
A: What do you mean?
Q: Did you use the battery, the cord or the charger?
A: No.
Q: When you went out to--Where was the Bronco when you went to get the case?
A: On Rockingham.
Q: And you went out to Rockingham to get-to the Bronco to get the case? A: Correct.
Q: Was the limo driver in the car waiting for you while you were doing this?
A: No.
Q: He had already put in the Louis Vuitton and the golf clubs in the trunk. Right?
A: And I assume my suit bag, because I told him, "Don't smash my suit bag."
Q: You didn't mention coming downstairs with the suit bag. When did the suit bag get downstairs?
A: First of all, you're incorrect.
Q: I may be. I may not be. Just tell me when the suit bag came downstairs.
A: When I came down to look in my golf bag for my shoes.
Q: You brought the suit bag with you?
A: Yes, because I knew I couldn't carry all three of them at once.
Q: Where did you leave the suit bag?
A: Right out front with my golf bag.
Q: On top of the golf bag on the bench?
A: No, because I put my golf bag on the ground, so--and I could have put the suit bag on top of it or I could have just folded it right there on the ground and then looked in my golf bag and then throw my golf bag on the ground.
Q: So in any event, when you went off to get your phone case, the suit bag, the Louis Vuitton bag and the golf bag were all in the trunk.
A: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me. Mr. Grornan needs to leave now.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 3:27.
(Arthur Groman leaves the deposition.)
(Pause in the proceedings.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 3:28.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I think I asked you before. Let me ask you again. I'm not sure what the answer--I remember the answer. When you went to the Bronco to get the case, what was Alan Park doing?
A: Standing around by the trunk of the car, I believe.
Q: And you left your grip back on the floor between the two benches--
A: Yes.
Q: --on the ground?
A: Yes.
Q: When you went out towards the Rockingham gate, how did you cause the gate to open?
A: Push the button.
Q: Right on the inside of the gate?
A: Yes.
Q: Which side?
A: Left side.
Q: And the gate swings inward?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you go out the left side. Right?
A: I don't know. Left side or the right side.
Q: The box is on the left side, the gate starts to open, and then you exit. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you walked out to your car?
A: Yes.
Q: The Bronco.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you do?
A: I looked in my car.
Q: You looked through the window?
A: No. I just opened the door.
Q: Which door?
A: The driver door. Looked in, saw the case, got--if that was the windbreaker, grabbed that--I mean the golf jacket, grabbed that.
Q: You mean Exhibit 10?
A: Yes.
Q: And first of all, where was the phone?
A: The phone, I'm not sure, but I think the phone was either in the bag or on my entry table, because I can't be sure if the phone was there or not. as I told you before. But the case wasn't. And then when I came back --yeah, then I grabbed the case and I grabbed the jacket.
Q: The case was on the passenger seat. Correct?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Did you open up the case right while you were in the Bronco to see what was in it?
A: No.
Q: You looked around then for the jacket. Right?
A: No. The jacket was laying right there in between the seats.
Q: Between the front seat and the passenger seat?
A: Yeah.
Q: On the console?
A: Partially on the passenger seat and the console, yes.
Q: And you picked up the case; you picked up the jacket. Did you pick up anything else?
A: No.
Q: Did you look for anything else?
A: No.
Q: How were you able to see while you were doing that?
A: Because I got eyes.
Q: Was there any light in there?
A: Yeah.
Q: In the car?
A: I would assume so, but there's certainly light from the intersection.
Q: There was a light--The car was parked near the intersection?
A: No. Yeah, I would say so. 20 feet, 30 feet from the intersection.
Q: The intersection of what two streets?
A: Ashford and Rockingham.
Q: And where is there a streetlight there?
A: Right in the middle of the intersection.
Q: And you could see inside the Bronco from that streetlight?
A: I would assume I could have seen inside the Bronco without that street light, but, yes, I could see clearly inside the Bronco for what I was looking for.
Q: Was there any light on in the Bronco?
A: Should have been.
Q: Why?
A: Because I think when you open the doors, lights come on the doors.
Q: There are only lights on the doors?
A: I don't know. I don't know. I don't really pay attention. When I open the door, my car's lights come on.
Q: Whatever lights are usually on when you open the door came on that time, too?
A: Yes.
Q: Then you closed the door?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you lock it?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you have a--How do you lock your car when you leave it, the Bronco?
A: Push a button, I think.
Q: On a key?
A: No.
Q: On the door panel?
A: Yes.
Q: Where is that button?
A: On the door panel.
Q: Which door panel?
A: Whichever door, I guess, I'm going in or out.
Q: Did you press that button that night?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Did you lock the car?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Is that the only way you can lock the car: By pressing that button on the door panel?
A: I don't know. You may be able to lock it with a key, but I'm not sure.
Q: When you typically locked the Bronco in May-June 1994, how did you do so?
A: I'm sure I would push that button.
Q: You don't have one of those keys with the automatic lock on it, do you?
A: As I already said. no.
Q: Okay. And you closed the door?
A: Yes.
Q: And how did you get back into the property?
A: I think--I'm not sure. I'm not sure of this, but I think the gate had closed, and I used my key to open it, the gate.
Q: There is a key on the outside of the gate?
A: Yes.
Q: When you key it, the gate automatically opens again?
A: Yes.
Q: When that gate automatically opens at Rockingham, then when you press the button on the inside, let's say, does it then close after a certain amount of time?
A: Yes.
Q: What is that interval of time?
A: I don't know.
Q: Roughly.
A: 30, 40 seconds.
Q: It opens, it stays open for 30, 40 seconds and then closes?
A: Yes.
Q: And is the same true of Ashford?
A: No.
Q: How does Ashford work? Or how did it work?
A: How does it work. You can push it open if it's off the hinges, or you can push a button to open it to go out. There is no key you use to come in.
Q: When you are on the outside-excuse me. When you want to go out of the Ashford entrance, there is a place where you can press the button to open up the gate?
A: Yes.
Q: And is that on the left side also?
MR. BAKER: As you are going out?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes, as you're going out.
A: Yes.
Q: When you press that button, does the gate then--is the hinge on the left side, or is the hinge on the right side?
A: No. It opens both ways
Q: Oh, there's two--okay. Does it swing inside?
A: Yes.
Q: And does it also then automatically close?
A: No.
Q: It stays open?
A: Yes.
Q: How does one close it? Manually?
A: Yeah, or with--if you got a thing from the car.
Q: Oh, like a remote control?
A: Yes.
Q: Is there a remote control device for the closing and opening of the Rockingham gate?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it the same one for both gates?
A: Yes.
Q: And you always kept one in the Bronco?
A: Yeah.
Q: In the car?
A: Yeah. They kept getting ripped off by the kids and stuff, so, you know, you're always fighting to have one.
Q: You mean the gate openers?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you keep them in the Bronco?
A: Wherever. On the dash--I mean, on the dashboard; sometimes up there, but they were all broke; in the glove compartment; on the seat.
Q: Do you have a separate one for the Bentley?
A: Pardon me?
Q: You have a separate clicker--
A: Yes.
Q:--for these doors for the Bentley?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it the same clicker that works the garage door?
A: No.
Q: Different one?
A: I don't know if I really have one to work the garage door, but I'm sure at one point I did.
Q: How do you open and close the garage door from the outside of the garage?
A: I don't know if I in recent years ever have.
Q: For example, when the door was open that evening, it was opened from the inside?
A: Yes.
Q: Does the outside of the Ashford gate, like the Rockingham gate, have a place for a key so that you can make the doors open?
A: No.
Q: So if you don't have one of those remote control gizmos, you're out of luck?
A Yes.
Q: You can't manually open them can you, by pushing them.
A: No.
Q: When you close--You used the key on the outside of the Rockingham gate to get back in. Correct?
A: I believe so. I'm not a hundred percent sure of that, but I believe so.
Q: And then the door opened--the gate opened, I should say.
A: Yeah.
Q: And then you walked into the gate and then into the car?
A: I'm sorry?
Q: You walked into the driveway on Rockingham and then to the limousine and then into the car?
A: No.
Q: Where did you go?
A: Kato was talking about some noise, and I talked to him out front and asked Park if he had a flashlight and told Kato to go in and look in the cupboard in my kitchen.
Q: The front door was still open?
A: Yes.
Q: When Kato said this to you, were you near the front door?
A: What do you mean?
Q: In other words, you had walked in through the Rockingham gate and walked in the direction of the limousine. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And when--
A: Well, to the direction of my front door, yes.
Q: To the direction of your front door.
A: Yes.
Q: Why were you walking to the front door and not to the limousine?
A: Because my front door was open, and my bag was sitting there between the benches in front of my front door.
Q: The grip bag.
A: Yes.
Q: And you went to the grip bag, and what did you do then?
A: I put the phone thing in the grip bag, and I put--that's what I did at that moment.
Q: Did you put the jacket in the grip bag?
A: I don't recall. I may have laid it across it.
Q: "The phone thing" meaning the case. Right?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: And then at that point in time Kato came up to you and said something to you?
A: Kato had been talking to me even before I went out, and he was continuing to talk again when I came back in.
Q: He mentioned something at that moment in time about sounds?
A: I think he was talking about it all the time, but I'm not sure.
Q: Including that time?
A: Yes.
Q: And you then asked Mr. Park if he had a flashlight?
A: When I was coming back in, I said, "Does he have"--I may have said it to Kato and Kato may have said no, and then I know during the course of whatever--I was just trying to pack and leave.
Q: I want to go back here. When you were coming back to the grip bag, your purpose was to put the items in the grip bag or in the car, close the door and get in the limo. Right?
A: Yeah. And I had some other things, yes.
Q:: You didn't have any further business to do in the house. Right?
A: Except to close the door.
Q: Except to close the door.
A: Yeah.
Q: Which you closed from the outside. Correct?
A: I would have, yes, but I didn't.
Q: You had your keys with you. Right?
A: Coming back, yes.
Q: Because you used that to get in the Rockingham entrance
A: That's right.
Q: What key chain was that, by the way?
A: I don't know.
Q: How many keys were on it?
A: Two or three.
Q: What were those keys to?
A: Probably my house, maybe my office, maybe my New York apartment I really don't know. I know my house for sure.
Q: Are all of the keys to your Rockingham house that you have on a single key chain?
MR. BAKER: You mean in 1994
MR. PETROCELLI: Correct. June of 1994.
THE WITNESS: What do you mean?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In other words, the key chain that had the key that you used get in the Rockingham gate--
A: Yeah.
Q:--that also had some other keys?
A: I believe so, yeah.
Q: Including the front door. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: How many keys to get into your front door are needed?
A: One.
Q: Is that the same key as the Rockingham gate key?
A: Yes.
Q: They are keyed alike. Right?
A: Pardon me?
Q: Same key to use both?
A: Yes.
Q: Does that key operate any other exterior doors going to your home?
A: Yes.
Q: Which ones?
A: My bedroom, my closet and every other lock that's in my house.
Q: So all of the locks in your house, including interior locks, work off of one key?
A: Yes.
Q: And that would include the exterior front door key and the Rockingham gate key?
A: That's right.
Q: Did you have any other keys on that chain that had to do with the Rockingham property?
A: I don't think so.
Q: What other keys did you have on there, if any?
A: I don't know. I know there were other keys on there, but I don't know what they were for.
Q: Is that where your car key to the Bronco is also?
A: No.
Q: To the Bentley?
A: Probably, yes.
Q: The Bronco is on a separate--
A: Yes.
Q: --key chain of its own?
A: Yes.
Q: And is there anything else on that key chain?
A: No.
Q: When you went to put the stuff in the case and close the door, you were--Kato was talking to you, you asked Park for a flashlight--
A: Kato may have asked--
MR. BAKER: He hasn't finished, and it's compound, and I don't know what you mean about "the stuff" and --
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me withdraw that question.
Q: When you were going back to the front door to put the stuff that you were carrying, I guess the case, I should say, into the grip bag and to close the front door, you then encountered Kato and he was talking to you. Right?
A: Yeah, Kato had been talking to me or I had been watching Kato talking or hearing him speak almost ever since I first walked out--the second time I walked out the front door.
Q: Now, when you saw Kato at that moment, did you then go back inside?
A: What moment?
Q: That moment when you returned from the Bronco.
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you go inside the house?
A: What did I do or where did I go?
Q: Where did you go?
A: I was on my way to the kitchen, and I went in the kitchen.
Q: What did you do in the kitchen?
A: Got a drink of water, basically.
Q: And then you left?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you carry your grip bag in with you?
A: No. I did carry a bag in with me but not the grip bag.
Q: The grip bag was still on the floor outside between the two benches?
A: Yes.
Q: What bag did you carry into the house with you?
A: A ball bag.
Q: Where did that ball bag come from?
A: It was on the ground outside.
Q: Where outside?
A: By where I was chipping balls behind my Bentley.
Q: What was in that ball bag?
A: Balls.
Q: Anything else?
A: Maybe -I don't know. Balls. Maybe a golf glove.
Q: Golf glove?
A: Yeah.
Q: And how did that bag with balls and a golf glove in it get on the ground near your Bentley?
A: When I was picking balls out of the back of my Bentley for taking with me to Chicago and for chipping away, I dropped the bag. After I picked out, I dropped the bag on the ground.
Q: And you just left it there?
A: Yes.
Q: Why?
A: Because--
MR. BAKER: Why not?
THE WITNESS:--I was doing other things.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Why did you leave the bag on the ground when you closed up your Bentley trunk and went inside?
A: Because I was doing other things.
Q: Did you just forget, you mean?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you not forgotten, you would have put the bag back into the trunk and closed the trunk?
A: Possibly, yes. Possibly.
Q: When did you pick up that bag to go inside the house?
A: When I came back from the Bentley from getting my cell phone stuff.
Q: Did you get the cell phone out of the Bentley?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: You just said "Bentley." You said getting the cell phone out of the Bentley. Did you mean--
THE WITNESS: Out of the Bronco.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q: Did you get the cell phone out of the Bronco?
A: I got the stuff that goes with the cell phone out of the Bronco.
Q: And the cell phone?
A: No.
Q: Just the case?
A: Yeah, I believe just the case and the stuff and a jacket.
Q: And a jacket.
A: Yes.
Q: So walking back from the Bronco you then picked up that ball bag?
A: Picked up two bags.
Q: What bags?
A: The bag that I put the balls and a windbreaker in and the white bag that had nothing but balls in it.
Q: So then when you were walking from the Bentley to the front door, you were carrying three things then, right--
A: Yes.
Q: --two bags and the case from the Bronco?
A: Four things.
Q: And the windbreaker.
A: Yes.
Q: And then when you got to the front door area, what did you do with these four things?
A: Three of them I sat down right there--
Q: What three?
A: The cell phone I put in the bag, my grip and either laid the jacket there and the other bag. I asked Park to get my golf bag. I think he was in the process of getting my golf bag, which I don't think he knew was a golf bag because he seemed very confused, and Kato was talking about where for the flashlight and Juice, you know, "Show me where."
So I kind of stopped what I was doing, and as I was walking back in the house to go show him to go into the cupboard, I had dropped the ball bag with all the bag--balls in it right there at the front door, and then I went into the kitchen and he went into the cupboard.
Q: The ball bag that you dropped near the front door--
A: Yeah.
Q: --was the white ball bag--
A: Yes.
Q: --that you had accidentally left outside on the ground by the Bentley. Correct?
A: I'm sorry.
MR. PETROCELLI: Do you want to repeat that question, please.
(Record read.)
THE WITNESS: Your characterization of "accidentally"--yeah. I don't know if it was accidental or it was there. I didn't purposely do it, but it was still on my property.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: That's what I meant. You didn't purposely leave it on the ground.
A: One way or the other. No. It was neither one way or the other. It's my house. It was there, yes.
Q: The white bag.
A: The white bag, yes.
Q: With the balls in it.
A: Yes.
Q: How many balls were in it?
A: A whole bunch.
Q: Scuffed or new or both?
A: Scuffed, yeah. Used balls.
Q: Used balls?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And then you dropped that white bag at the door?
A: Right inside the front door.
Q: Inside the front door.
A: Yes.
Q: And you had put your case and/or cell phone in the grip?
A: Yes.
Q: Left the grip outside still?
A: Yes.
Q: And then gave this other bag which had balls and the windbreaker to Park.
A: No. I left it there, but I wanted Park to give me my golf bag so that I could put this--the balls and stuff in my golf bag, but I got distracted because Kato was talking to me.
Q: So before you went into the house to the kitchen, you left that other bluish--
A: I left them right there.
Q: --bag right that had the windbreaker and the new balls--
A: Yes.
Q: --outside the front door. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And just dropped--just laid it down there. Right?
A: Right with my grip, yeah.
Q: Did you then before you entered the door tell Alan Park what to do with that bag?
A: No. I was asking him--I was in the process of asking him to bring me my golf bag because I wanted to condense, but Kato was talking to me, so I just went in the house with Kato.
Q: Did you ask Park to get the golf bag out of the trunk?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did he do so?
A: He was beginning to do it, but he seemed a little confused, because he was reaching, and I mentioned to him, "Don't smash my suit," and I don't know. You know, I didn't know him, so he just seemed a little confused. But Kato was talking. This was all happening at once. Kato was talking, so I just went inside with Kato.
Q: When you went inside to the kitchen to get the drink of water--
A: Yeah.
Q: -did you have any bags with you?
A: Not in the kitchen, no.
Q: When you passed the front door and dropped down that white bag, at that point in time you had no further bags in your hand?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you were carrying nothing. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: You went into the kitchen; you got a drink of water. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: From the sink or from the refrigerator? Where did you get the water?
A: From the washroom.
Q: From the washroom. Is that near the kitchen?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you get the glass?
A: From the kitchen.
Q: And what did you do with the glass when you finished?
A: Probably sat it right there.
Q: Where?
A: Either on the counter or in the sink.
Q: Kitchen counter or kitchen sink?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: You said something about looking in the cupboard for a flashlight?
A: Kato was looking in the cupboard for a flashlight.
Q: And did you do anything more other than get a drink of water and walk out?
A: Yeah. I wiped my hand. I saw what I thought was blood on my hand, and I tore a piece of tissue that was right there and wiped my hand, but I was talking to Kato at the same time.
Q: And after you did that, did you then go to the car?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you went out to the car, you went out the front door now. Right?
A: Actually I walked to the front door with Kato, and I was about to describe the alarm to him, but we were running late, so I just got in the car and told him I'd call him.
MR. BAKER: The car we're speaking of is the limo?
MR. PETROCELLI: The limo.
THE WITNESS: The limousine .
MR. PETROCELLI: The limo.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you came to the front door with Kato, did you begin explaining --
A: I was--
Q: Excuse me. -did you begin explaining to him about the alarm?
A: I was talking to him about continuing to look because he--I wasn't really--it was the first time I really paid attention to what he was talking about. So I was talking about him to look further for the flashlight, but I was running late, and so I just went and got in the car. Talking to Kato--okay.
Q: When you came out of the house, did Kato come out with you?
A: Yeah, I think he was coming out the front door or standing in the entry when I got into the limo.
Q: When you came out of the kitchen to go outside, was Kato walking with you?
A: He was walking behind me.
Q: Behind you.
A: Yes.
Q: When you walked out of the front house-I'm sorry--the front door, he walked out behind you. Right?
A: Well, he was behind me. I wasn't looking behind me. So he was behind me, yes.
Q: Did you then turn to close the door?
A: I didn't see him turn to close the door.
Q: Did you?
A: No.
Q: Did you close the door?
A: No,
Q: Did you lock the door?
A: No.
Q: You left it open?
A: No. The door will lock if you close it.
Q: Does it close automatically, or do you have to manually pull it closed?
A: You'd have to I think manually pull it closed.
Q: And it locks automatically?
A: Yeah. It should.
Q: And that's what you did. Right?
A: No. I went and got in the car, Kato was behind me, and I thought I told him to look for a flashlight and see what's going on.
Q: When you came out the door, you closed the door and it locked. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And then--
A: No, I didn't close the door. Kato was behind me. I'm assuming Kato was going to close the door.
Q: When you got in the car, was the door closed?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Were there any lights on there?
A: Yes.
Q: Which lights?
A: I would assume my coach lights on that were out front, and normally the lamps that I normally have on would have been on.
Q: Where are those lamps?
A: One's in the entry. One's in the kitchen.
Q: Inside, you mean?
A: Yes.
Q: Do they go on automatically?
A: Then I don't know. I don't know.
Q: Do you have any timers?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have them activated that night?
A: Some parts of the house. I don't know exactly what parts of the house they were, but some parts of the house there are.
Q: Were the timers operating in June 12, 1994?
A: I'm not sure. but I would think so, but I'm not sure.
Q: When they are working, what time do the lights go on?
A: I don't know.
Q: What time were they set for?
A: I don't set them. I don't know.
Q: Which lights were set on the timer?
A: I don't know.
Q: Are the coach lights set on the timer?
A: No.
Q: Now, when you walked out the front door, did you then go right into the limousine?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you go into the back seat of the limousine?
A: Yes.
Q: Was the limousine pointing towards Rockingham?
A: Well, it was pointing south, yes.
Q: And so you went in the seat right behind the driver. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And that door was already open waiting for you?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you got in, did you close the door?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Or did Park close the door?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Was Park already in the driver's seat?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Was the trunk closed?
A: Yes.
Q: And were the items that were outside put away?
A: No.
Q: Where were they?
A: Sitting right there.
Q: Sitting right where?
A: Between the benches.
Q: And you were inside the limo. Right?
A: You talking about when I walked out of the front door?
Q: And you went into the limo.
A: I grabbed those things and got into the limo.
Q: What did you grab?
A: Everything that was sitting between the benches.
Q: What were those items?
A: My grip, a little--the other bag, and I believe the windbreaker.
Q: "The other bag"--
A: The jacket, yeah.
Q: "The other bag" being the bag with the windbreaker and the golf balls?
A: That's correct.
Q: And so Park never put that bag in the trunk?
A: No.
Q: And you never had him take the golf bag out and put it into the golf bag?
A: We never got to that, no.
Q: But you had asked him to start to do that. Correct?
A: No. I asked him to get me the golf bag, but Kato was distracting me, and so he never got to get me the golf bag.
Q: When you came back out of the house, did he say, "Mr. Simpson, what do you want me to do with this golf bag?"
A: No, he did not.
Q: Did he say anything to you?
A: No, except he was looking very nervous, and I said. "We better get going."
Q: Did you tell--Did Mr. Kaelin pack any bags into the limousine?
A: I don't know.
Q: And Mr. Park, you said, put in the Louis Vuitton, the suit bag and the golf club. Right?
A: I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
Q: You don't remember?
A: I think I dropped them, and I went back in the house, and I went out. When I went back in the house when I first came down-secondly came down, they were in the limo. The second time I came down, my golf bag and my suit bag were in the limo already, so they were already put away.
Q: And the Louis Vuitton bag.
A: No. I came down with the Louis Vuitton bag, and during the process of doing that, I guess they were putting the other bag away, but I wasn't really paying attention to them. I was, you know, looking for what I was looking for.
Q: Did you tell Mr. Park not to pack any particular--excuse me--not to put any particular bag into the trunk?
A: No.
Q: Or not to put it into the limo?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell that to Kaelin?
A: No.
Q: At no time did you say to either Mr. Park or Mr. Kaelin not to handle a particular bag?
A: No.
Q: So you had in the back seat with you the windbreaker, the grip and the other bag?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: Do you have any explanation why the bags that were left outside on the area between the two benches when you went into the kitchen were not put into the limousine?
MR. BAKER: He is not here to give you explanations. He is here to answer questions, and he doesn't have to give an explanadon, and I instruct him not to answer that question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know why those bags were not put into the car?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell anybody not to put them in?
A: No.
Q: Were you surprised when you came back out and saw that they were still there?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: Because they didn't look like bags, I would think for me. I know what the bags are, so I'm influenced by it. One is a grip that I had all my personal things in. It was laying there open, and I was going in and out of it. And the other was a windbreaker, and I just assumed--I can't make an assumption for them, but it's--when I was looking at it, I pulled my ticket out to make sure my ticket was there, so maybe he just assumed it was my bag. I don't know. I don't know.
Q: The windbreaker and the grip, but then there was another bag there.
A: Yeah, but it was a little bag; it wasn't a big bag, and it was put with these two bags. So I don't know. You'd have to ask them. I can't think for them.
Q: I am going to show you another photograph, which we will mark as Exhibit 25.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 25 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Exhibit 25 is a photograph that shows a bag. Do you see that?
A: Yes,
Q: Do you recognize that bag?
A: Yes.
Q: What is it?
A: It's my suit bag.
Q: Is that the bag that you took to Chicago to carry the suit and the shirt and the tie?
A: Yes.
Q: And you don't remember if the windbreaker was in there. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: What color is that bag, Mr. Simpson?
A: Black.
Q: Did that bag have room to carry any more items in it?
A: Yes.
Q: In other words, your Louis Vuitton bag was stuffed, or did it have room for additional items?
A: I could have put more stuff in there, yes.
Q: Let me show you the next exhibit, No. 26.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 26 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: 26 contains another--is a photograph of another bag. Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recognize that bag?
A: I believe so.
Q: What is it?
A: It's a grip.
Q: Is that the bag--
MR. KELLY: I am sorry. I couldn't hear you.
THE WITNESS: Grip.
MR. KELLY: A grip bag?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What color is that bag?
A: It looks to be blue and sort of leatherish].
Q: Now, is that the bag that you took into the back seat with you that had the golf balls and the windbreaker?
A: I believe so.
Q: That's it?
A: I believe so.
Q: Is there any uncertainty in your mind?
A: Well, it wasn't one of my regular bags, so I'm assuming that was the bag.
Q: This was one of your regular travel bag bags?
A: Was not.
Q: I am sorry. I missed your answer.
"Well, it wasn't one of my regular bags, so I'm assuming that was the bag."
Why were you assuming this is the bag that you took with you?
A: Because it looks like the type of bag that was there, and it was what I saw in the courtroom.
MR. LEONARD: Can I just see that for a second?
MR. KELLY: Dan, could I see that, please?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And that was the bag that you retrieved initially that evening from the Bentley trunk?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have any other bags with you, other than the ones we have now described?
A: No.
Q: You're sure of that?
A: Yes.
Q: In the back of the limo did you do anything with these two bags, the grip and this Exhibit 26 bag?
A: No.
Q: Nothing at all?
A: No. Oh, I'm sorry. Say that again.
Q: Did you ever fiddle around in the bags at all?
A: Maybe in--
MR. BAKER: I don't know what "fiddle around in the bags." Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know what that means?
MR. BAKER: It doesn't matter if he knows what it means.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you look into the bags?
A: Yes.
Q: For what purpose?
A: See what airlines I was going on to tell--make sure the driver know and just, you know, get my ticket out, tear it out of the thing so I can carry it, close up the bag, put my cell phone in its case. You know, do the whole thing, that kind of stuff.
Q: And you did all that in your black grip bag. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you look into this other bag at all?
A: No.
Q: Where was it?
A: Sitting on the floor, sitting on the seat next to me.
Q: What kind of car was it?
A: Stretch limo.
Q: What color?
A: I don't know.
Q: What color was the interior?
A: I don't know.
Q: Was the light on in the back?
A: I don't think so, but it could have come on. I don't think so.
Q: Did you make any phone calls from the limousine?
A: No.
Q: Did the driver take you directly to the airport?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you converse with him7
A: Yes.
Q: What did you converse about?
A: About rushing to the airport, about him getting a little lost at one point, about Kato.
Q: What did you tell the driver about getting lost? What was that conversation about?
A: I told him he was going the wrong way.
Q: When did he go the wrong way?
A: At Sunset.
Q: Which way did he go wrong?
A: When we got to the freeway and he was in the left lane instead of the right lane.
Q: And did he then get on--
A: Yes.
Q:--the right lane?
A: Yes.
Q: So he was in the wrong lane. You moved him over to the right lane so he could get on the freeway?
A: Freeway, yes. He was about to stay in the left lane, and the on ramp is on the right.
Q: The on ramp is on the right lane on the east side of the freeway. Correct?
A: It would be the south side.
Q: Which side of the freeway is the on ramp going south?
A: It's on the west and it goes south.
Q: West and it goes south.
A: Yes.
Q: And he was on the left.
A: Yeah, he was on the north lane.
Q: So you moved him over to the right.
A: Yes.
Q: But he didn't get lost. Right?
A: Yeah. Okay.
Q: In other words, he didn't go the wrong way. He just was in the wrong lane.
A: Well, I know he was going the wrong way until I corrected him.
Q: So it turned out he didn't go the wrong way.
A: Yeah, I corrected him before he went the wrong way.
Q: And then he got on the freeway going south, and you got to the airport?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: What time did you leave Rockingham?
A: I don't know. I think it was a little after 11:00.
Q: Before 11:15?
A: I would think so.
Q: Sometime between 11:00 and 11:15?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you pin it down any closer?
A: No.
Q: Did it have a clock in it, in the limo?
A: I would assume so, but in a stretch limo you can't see over that thing to the dashboard.
Q: Were you wearing a watch?
A: I may have been.
Q: What watch were you wearing?
A: If I was wearing a watch it would have been a Swiss Army watch, probably this watch (Indicating).
Q: That watch right there (Indicating)?
A: This type of watch, yes.
Q: And when did you put that watch on?
A: Who knows.
Q: When in the evening of June 12 did you put on your watch?
A: I don't know if I did, but if I had on a watch, this would have been the watch.
Q: You don't remember if you had a watch when you put it on?
MR. BAKER: Just answer the question.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Were you looking at the watch while you were in the limousine to see if you were going to be late?
A: No.
Q: Were you looking at the watch before the limousine?
MR. BAKER: You have now elevated "I may have had a watch and I don't recall if I did" to he had a watch on and was he looking at it, and I am going to object and instruct him not to answer the question.
MR. PETROCELLI: By asking him the questions, it may jog his memory that he had such a watch, he was wearing it and was indeed looking at it.
MR. BAKER: Then frame it correctly. Don't frame it as a fait accompli, because it is not.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You don't remember, do you?
A: No.
Q: You don't remember looking at a watch to see if you were running late at all. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Were you looking at clocks in the house to see if you were running late?
A: I looked at a clock.
Q: Which clock?
A: In my kitchen.
Q: How many times did you look at that kitchen clock?
A: In what period of time?
Q: The evening of June 12.
A: I have no idea.
Q: When you did look at it, what time did it say?
A: It was after 11:00.
Q: When you went in to get the drink of water?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you look at it any time before that point in time to see if you were running late or for any other reason?
A: I'm sure, if I was in the kitchen earlier that day or that afternoon, there's a chance I might have looked at the watch--I mean the clock.
Q: I mean any time in the evening of the 12th.
A: If I was in the kitchen, I may have looked at the clock.
Q: Did you look at any other, clocks in your house the evening of June 12?
A: Yes.
Q: Where were those clocks?
A: One was by my bed.
Q: And what other clocks did you look at?
A: That I'm conscious of, I can't recall.
Q: And do you remember specifically looking at the bed clock?
A: Yes.
Q: What times?
A: It was--it registered about 10:40, 10:35 to 10:40.
Q: What was your purpose in looking at the clock at 10:35?
A: That's when I became aware that the limo driver was, to me, late and I had to get moving,
Q: The limo driver had not yet arrived?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you recall looking at the clock any other time?
A: No.
Q: When you were in the bedroom around 10:35 or so and you looked at the clock, what were you doing in the bedroom.?
A: Sitting on my bed, kind of sitting, half laying, sitting on the pillows on my bed.
Q: How long had you been doing that?
A: 10, 15 minutes.
Q: So you were lying on the bed for about 15 minutes, sitting or lying--
A: Yeah.
Q: --on the bed.
A: Yes.
Q: And then you saw the clock at 10:35 or so?
A: 10:35 or 40. It's right in that area. That's what it registered.
Q: And then you--when you saw the time, you got up?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you do at that point?
A: Went and took a dump.
Q: How long did that take?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Then what did do you?
A: Jumped in the shower.
Q: How long did that take?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Then what did you do?
A: Got out of the shower.
Q: Then what did you do?
A: Dried off.
Q: Then what?
A: Started to get dressed.
Q: Then what?
A: Started finishing packing my suitcase.
Q: When you got out of the shower and got dressed, what time was it when you finished dressing?
A: I don't know.
Q: Was the limo driver there--
A: Yes.
Q: --when you finished dressing?
A: Yes.
Q: Was he there when you got out of the shower?
A: Yes.
Q: How do you know?
A: Because I heard my phone continuing to ring.
Q: And you didn't answer it?
A: No.
Q: When is the first time you heard it ring?
A: I don't know.
Q: When is the first time you remember hearing it ring?
A: At some point in time when I was in the shower.
Q: You heard the phone in the shower?
A: Yes. You don't hear it clearly. At some point I thought I heard the phone ring, and I opened the door to the shower and I looked at it, and the phone was ringing.
Q: When you are talking about the phone ringing, are you talking about the telephone ringing?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that what rings when the limo buzzes outside the Ashford gate?
A: Right.
Q: Does it ring different than a normal telephone call?
A: You mean the sound?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Can you tell if it's a person out at the gate versus a phone call?
A: I can, yes.
Q: How?
A: It keeps ringing in the line that lights up when it's ringing.
MR. BREWER: I'm sorry?
THE WITNESS: The line that lights up when it's ringing and it keeps ringing.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: But if you're in the shower, you can't see the line. Correct?
A: When I open the door to the shower, I can.
Q: Did you do that?
A: Yes.
Q: So you heard the phone ringing, you opened the door to the shower, then you looked at a phone instrument, you saw a light on, and that told you it was the limo driver.
A: No. At first I knew it was the limo driver because once I heard it ringing, at one point when I was aware of it ringing, I hit the door and it continued to ring, so I knew it had to be the gate; and at some point as I'm coming out, I looked and it was the gate, but it had stopped ringing, It had stopped ringing at that point.
Q: When you say you "hit the door," what do you mean by that?
A: The shower door.
Q: You hit it for what reason?
A: To open it.
Q: To open it to see the phone?
A: Actually I was getting out, but I tend to open the shower door, grab my towel, and because my shower is sort of a steam shower, dry off in the shower.
Q: In any event, by looking at the instrument and hearing the constant ringing, you knew it wasn't a phone call, but the limo driver. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: Now, did you hear it while you were in the shower then?
A: At some point, yes.
Q: And when you got out of the shower and were drying off--
A: Yes.
Q: --did you still continue to hear it?
A: No.
Q: So when you got out, before you dried off, did you go to the phone to call the limo driver?
A: No.
Q: Can you call from your phone?
A: I think so. I think you can hit the gate and the gate will open. I don't know if it will ring out there. The gate will open out there.
Q: When you hear -when you heard-Withdrawn. What do you have to do to let the limo driver in from upstairs in your bedroom?
A: Pick up the phone and push a number that's on my phone.
Q: What number is that?
A: I don't recall right now.
Q: Can you talk to the limo driver by picking up the phone and dialing some number?
A: No. Just by picking up the phone, if it's on that line, you can talk to the limo driver.
Q: And if he is not on the line, you can't talk to him, obviously. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Will his phone ring on the other, line?
A: I don't know.
Q: If you wanted to talk to him but he is not on the line, will it ring so that he will pick it up and he can talk to you?
MR. BAKER: Do you understand that question?
THE WITNESS: I think I understand what he's saying, yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. But--
A: I've never done that.
Q: In any event, when you got out of the shower, you dried off before pressing that button to open the door. Correct?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: To open the door?
MR. PETROCELLI: Open the gate.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you got out of the shower, you dried off before doing anything?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you go and press the button on your phone that would activate the gate and let the driver in?
A: I didn't.
Q: You didn't.
A: No.
Q: And after you--But you knew he was out there. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And after you dried off, you dressed. Right?
A: Yes, started to get dressed and started to pack--finish packing.
Q: While you were dressing--Withdrawn. While you were drying, did the phone ring again?
A: No.
Q: While you were dressing, did the phone ring again?
A: Yeah, eventually, yes.
Q: And did you then, while you were dressing and heard the phone ring, press the button to let the gate open?
A: No.
Q: And then you finished dressing and then--
A: Yes.
Q: --did what?
A: Went outside.
Q: Did you pack first after you finished dressing?
A: I don't understand what you're saying.
Q: When you finished dressing--
A: Yes.
Q: --did you resume packing?
A: No.
Q: You were already packed?
A: Yes.
Q: Completely packed?
A: Completely packed.
Q: And where was the Louis Vuitton bag?
A: On my bed.
Q: Closed and packed. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And that occurred, it was closed and packed, before you went into the shower. Right?
A: No.
Q: When did you close and pack it?
A: As I told you before--
Q: Pack and close it, I should say.
A: As I told you before, when I came up, I closed it up, I folded it up, put on my shirt, put on my jean top and carried it downstairs.
Q: What I am trying to understand, Mr. Simpson, is: Did you complete the packing of the Louis Vuitton bag and closing it up--
A: Yes.
Q: --after or before you took your shower?
A: After I took my shower.
Q: Right after you took your shower, you dried. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you dressed. Right?
A: Halfway, yeah, and eventually, yes. Yes.
Q: When you were packing your Vuitton bag to finish off the packing, were you already fully dressed?
A: No.
Q: So you were partly dressed.
A: Yes.
Q: You had pants on?
A: Yes.
Q: Loafers?
A: Yes
Q: No shirt?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you resumed packing.
A: Yes.
Q: Finished packing.
A: When I finished packing, yes.
Q: Put your shirt on.
A: Yes.
Q: Then put that other shirt over it Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Then went downstairs.
A: For the second time, yes.
Q: Now, from the time you got out of the shower to the moment you went downstairs, at any time during that interval did you press the button to let the limo driver in?
A: No.
Q: And how many times did the phone ring from the moment you got out of the shower until you went downstairs?
A: Once.
Q: And how many times did it ring that occasion?
A: Once.
Q: When I said--how many rings?
A: Once.
Q: And you could tell from the line that it was the limo driver. Right?
A: That and the fact that I picked it up.
Q: You picked it up and you talked to him?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you then say?
A: I said, "I'm coming right down. I'm running late, I know. I'm coming right down."
Q: Then you hung up.
A: I believe so. Yeah, I believe so.
Q: Did you press the button at that point to let the gate open?
A: No.
Q: What did he say to you? Anything?
A: I think he dialed me right back to say that he had been there, and I'm not sure if it was all a part of the same conversation or the phone rung immediately right after I said, "Yeah, I'm running late," and then I told him. He said something about he had been waiting. I said, "Yeah, I know. I was in the shower."
Q: So you hung up the phone, and then he called right back?
A: Yeah, I believe so. I believe so.
Q: And you picked up again?
A: Yeah. It could have been one conversation. I'm not sure, but I seem to recall it, because I know I was irritated when I had to continue this conversation with him.
Q: Irritated about what?
A: Well, I was running late, and it was like, you know, this guy's telling me he's been here. So terrific. You've been here. And it wasn't Dale, so...
Q: Dale?
A: Dale.
Q: St. John?
A: Yes.
Q: Your regular driver?
A: Yes.
Q: For many years?
A: Yes.
MR. LEONARD: I don't know about anybody else, but I've got to hit the head. I don't know if this is a good time for a break or--
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 4:17.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 4:42.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Simpson, when--is it clear in your mind that the first time you heard the buzzer from the limo driver was when you were in the shower?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Well, the phone.
THE WITNESS: The phone.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: The phone rings.
A: Yes.
Q: And you were in the shower.
A: That's correct.
Q: And you didn't respond at that time.
A: Correct.
Q: And the second time--
A: I didn't respond by answering it.
Q: Right. You didn't respond at all.
A: Yes.
Q: The second time you heard it is when you were getting dressed. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you didn't respond then either.
A: That's incorrect.
Q: When you were dressing and you heard the phone ring--
A: Yes.
Q: --did you pick it up?
A: Yes.
Q: And you had a little discussion which you've already testified to. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: But you did not let him in then. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And then you finished dressing, packing, going downstairs, and you didn't hear the phone ring again during that time. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And then you went downstairs and out the door. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And did you let him in then?
A: He was in then, but--yeah, he was in then.
Q: Did you let him in?
A: No.
Q: How did he get in?
A: I assume Kato let him in.
Q: You don't know?
A: That's the only assumption I make.
Q: You didn't buzz him in. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: You never went to your phone instrument, pressed that button and let the gate open. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you didn't do anything to cause the gate to open.
A: That's correct.
Q: And when you came downstairs to go out to the Bronco to get what you said was the windbreaker and the case for the phone, he was already there. Correct?
A: I didn't come downstairs to do that, no.
Q: When you came downstairs, though, you did that.
A: I ended up doing that, yes.
Q: Came downstairs, looked in your grip bag--
A Yes
Q: --and then went out to the car
A: Yes.
Q: The Bronco.
A: Yes.
Q: But at that point in time Mr. Park was already in--
A: Correct.
Q: --and you don't know how he got there. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Did you ask Kato?
A: No. Q: How would Kato have let him in?
A: Since he was out front, I'm assuming he pushed the button.
Q: To the left of the gate?
A: Yes.
Q: Would there have been any other way that Kato could have opened that gate on Rockford?
A: I believe so.
MR. BAKER: On Rockford?
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me. On Ashford.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What are the other options that Kato had to do that?
A: He could have picked up the phone and pushed whatever number to let him in.
Q: Any telephone in the house?
A: Yes.
Q: He had access to the phones in the house?
A: In his room.
Q: Even in his room he could operate the gate?
A: You know, once he got in that room, I never went in that room to see what his phone setup was, but before he got in that room I know you could have, yes.
Q: You don't recall if you changed it or not?
A: I didn't do anything.
Q: And in Arnelle's room--she also lived there. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: On June 12th. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And she had the same ability on her telephone to press the button and have the gate open. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Is there another button to press to have the Rockingham gate open?
A: No.
Q: Does that open by the phones?
A: No.
Q: Can you talk to that gate?
A: No.
Q: When you got off the bed -Strike that. Earlier you testified that you went upstairs about 10:20 p.m. and shut off the lights. When you went upstairs then--
A: 10:15, 10:20.
Q: --where did you go?
A: To my bedroom.
Q: And is that--What did you do when you got to the bedroom at that time?
A: Sat on my bed and kinda laid back on my bed.
Q: And then you noticed the clock around 10:35 or 10:40, and then you got up and you went to the bathroom. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And at that time you knew that you had to hustle to get out of there. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: How long were you in the bathroom?
A: I don't know.
Q: Less than five minutes?
A: I don't know.
Q: More than five minutes?
A: I don't know.
Q: What's your best estimate?
A: I don't have one.
Q: How long were you in the shower?
A: I don't know.
Q: When you were on the bed, you were dressed. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: What were you wearing?
A: Probably some pants and a shirt.
Q: What was the color of the pants you were wearing?
A: Probably a royal bluish pants.
Q: What was the color of the shirt?
A: I believe white.
Q: Did you have socks on?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: What kind of socks did you have on?
A: White socks.
Q: And did you have shoes on?
A: No.
Q: What happened -Were you wearing shoes when you were outside chipping the golf balls and leaving the Bentley and going upstairs?
A: Yes.
Q: What shoes were those?
A: Tennis shoes.
Q: White?
A: Yes.
Q: Reebok?
A: I believe so.
Q: When did you take those shoes off?
A: When I got upstairs.
Q: Where did you put them?
A: I don't know. I think I probably just kicked them off my feet when I laid on the bed.
Q: Now, the pants and shirt that you were wearing, is that what you were wearing to the... You said that the pants were a royal blue?
A: Yes, I believe bluish--blue. Blue. It could have--
Q: Dark blue?
A: Could have been dark blue, yes.
Q: You sure of that color?
A: Yes, I'm pretty sure of that color.
Q: Were they--And the shirt was a white shirt?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Open-collar shirt? Polo shirt? What kind of shirt?
A: Golf shirt.
Q: Golf shirt. Were those the same clothing you had worn to the recital?
A: No.
Q: When you came back from the recital, you changed?
A: Yes.
Q: And you changed into these royal blue pants and this golf shirt?
A: Yes.
Q: You're not sure that it was a white shirt. Correct?
A: At this recollection right now, no.
Q: It could have been a dark shirt. Correct?
A: Could have been darker, yes
Q: Now, when did you put these clothes on?
A: When I--between 7:30 or so and 9:00 o'clock.
Q: What did you wear to the recital?
A: Black pants, I believe a white shirt, black sweater-jacket
Q: Black pants, white shirt and what?
A: I believe a black sweater-jacket.
Q: Socks?
A: I'm not sure.
Q: And shoes.
A: Yes, black shoes.
Q: What kind of shoes?
A: Dress shoes.
Q: Loafers?
A: Yes.
Q: Made by whom?
A: I don't know.
Q: You don't remember?
A: I don't think I ever knew.
Q: Did you buy them?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you buy them.
A: I don't remember.
Q: What time did you take these clothes off?
MR. BAKER: What do you mean, "these clothes"?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: The black pants, the white shirt, the black sweater-jacket and the black dress shoes that you wore to the recital.
A: Sometime between 7:30 and 9:00 o'clock.
Q: Can you fix the time any better than that?
A: No,
Q: Why did you take those clothes off?
A: Because I was beginning to pack, and I was lounging around, and they weren't lounge-around clothes.
Q: And you took them back when you got back from the recital?
A: Yes.
Q: As soon as you got back?
A: I don't think immediately, no.
Q: You lounged around for a while in those clothes?
A: No, I was not lounging around. After that, when I decided I was going to hang around the house, I lounged around.
Q: When you got back from the recital, there was a period of time that you were home, and then you changed?
A: Yes.
Q: How long were you home before you changed after the recital?
A: I don't know. Half hour, maybe, 40 minutes, 50 minutes.
Q: Half hour to 50 minutes?
A: I would say so, yeah.
Q: When you took those clothes off, you were up in your bedroom?
A: Yes.
Q: In that closet?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you do with those clothes?
A: Hung them up.
Q: And you put on what clothes?
A: I put on the golf pants that I had worn that day, a shirt, some white socks.
Q: Now, the golf pants you wore, were those the blue pants that you just told me about?
A: Yes.
Q: Same ones you played golf in?
A: Yes.
Q: And you put on this shirt.
A: Yes.
Q: The color of which you cannot recall.
A: Correct.
Q: And then you put on socks and Reeboks.
A: No. Just socks at that point.
Q: What time did you leave the Rockingham house to go to the recital?
A: About 5:00.
Q: 5:00?
A: Yes.
Q: What time did you get dressed?
A: A little before 5:00.
Q: What time did you start getting dressed?
A: A little before 5:00.
Q: Quarter to 5:00?
A: Possibly. Maybe even a shorter time than that.
Q: Like 10 to 5:00?
A: Could be. I was running late.
Q: Did you take a shower?
A: No.
Q: Are you sure of that?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you were on your bed and noticed it was 10:35, 10:40 and decided to get changed, the clothes that you took off were these golf pants and this shirt. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And those were the clothes that you wore while you were chipping and hitting golf balls on your lawn. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And those were the clothes that you wore when you left the Bentley and went upstairs around 10:15, 10:20. Correct?
A: Yeah, correct.
Q: And--Now, you said when you went upstairs, you closed the lights, and what lights--
A: I turned off the lights at some point downstairs, yes.
Q: You previously testified that you did so when you left the Bentley, went into the house and went upstairs.
MR. BAKER: Don't answer that question.
You can ask him a question, but you're not going to interrogate him on your interpretation of what he previously said.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you turn the lights off when you went into the house from your business at the Bentley on your way upstairs?
A: What lights were still on downstairs, big lights, yes.
Q: What lights did you turn off downstairs that you just referred to?
A: If--probably the kitchen lights. because I think I had previously turned out all the TV and the lights that were in my den and stuff.
Q: The lights in your TV room, if on, can be seen--first of all, they're on the first floor. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And those lights can be seen from Ashford out in front of the gate there?
A: No.
Q: If they're on, nobody can see that?
A: That's correct.
Q: But they were off.
A: I believe I turned them off, yes.
Q: Then you turned off the big lights downstairs. Right?
A: The overhead lights in the kitchen I believe so.
Q: And then you turned off the coach lights outside?
A: I don't think so.
Q: They were not on, though. Correct?
A: I'm not sure.
Q: What's your best recollection? Were they on or not on?
A: I don't have a recollection one way or the other.
Q: Then you turned off the entryway light on the other side of the front door. Correct?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Were those lights already off?
A: I believe so.
Q: So when you went upstairs around 10:15, 10:20 p.m., there were no lights on downstairs to your knowledge. Correct?
A: That's incorrect.
Q: What lights were on?
A: A lamp in my kitchen and my lamp in my entry.
Q: And can--do those lights project light outside of the home onto the property?
A: It depends.
Q: It depends on what?
A: If you're sitting in front of the front door or if you're sitting in front of the kitchen.
Q: If you're sitting in front of the front door, can you see any lights on?
A: Yes.
Q: If you're sitting in front of the kitchen, can you see any lights on?
A: Yes.
Q: If you are sitting out at the Ashford gate. can you see any lights on?
A: No.
Q: How do you know that?
A: Because I've done it.
Q: When did you do it?
A: Numerous times.
Q: Did you do it in the last month?
A: Yes.
Q: For what reason?
A: To prove it to some people.
Q: To whom did you prove it?
A: To my lawyers.
Q: Which lawyers?
A: My current lawyers.
Q: The lawyers sitting here to your right?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you attempt to prove?
A: Just showing them that you can't tell what lights are on in my house from the gates.
Q: Did you do it at night?
A: Yes.
Q: At 10:00--What time was it?
A: Late at night. I don't know exactly what time.
Q: After 10:00 o'clock p.m.?
A: Possibly.
Q: And what lights did you turn on downstairs?
A: Virtually all of them.
Q: Every single light downstairs?
A: I said "virtually," not all. I would say 90 percent of the lights.
Q: Did you turn on the lamp in the kitchen?
A: Yes.
Q: The lamp in the entryway?
A: Yes.
Q: The big light in the kitchen?
A: No.
Q: Did you turn on the coach lights outside?
A: I think at one point they were, yes.
Q: But at one point they were not turned on.
A: Yes.
Q: Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you turn on the lights in the TV room?
A: All of them.
Q: All of them.
A: Yes.
Q: And did you then turn on any other lights?
A: Yes.
Q: Which ones?
A: All the lights in my dining room, all the lights in my living room, all the lights in my tennis room, all the lights in my bedroom, all the lights in my bathroom, yes.
Q: What lights downstairs did you leave off?
A: Downstairs? The overhead lights in my kitchen and my office.
Q: Why did you leave those lights off?
A: Because those are lights I don't believe was on the night of the 12th.
Q: And then you went and positioned yourself on the other side of the gate at Ashford?
A: Inside and outside of the gate, on both gates.
Q: And what did you see?
A: A house that looked like no lights were on.
Q: Why did it look like no lights were on?
A: You'd have to ask God that.
Q: Why?
A: Because--
MR. BAKER: Because he's a physicist.
THE WITNESS: He's a physicist and I'm not.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You could not see any lights?
A: Nobody with me could see any lights.
Q: How do you know that?
A: Because they said it.
Q: Who said it?
A: Whoever I was with.
Q: And who were you with?
A: I've done this--I can't recall who --
I've done this with virtually everyone who's come into my house.
Q: You've done it with Bob Baker, Dan Leonard and Bob Blasier. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Who else have you done it with?
A: A film crew.
Q: That made your video?
A: That's correct.
Q: Anyone else?
A: Just about everybody who's come to my house who--I can't recall who.
Q: You make a point of doing it when they come to your house?
A: Yes.
Q: What else do you make a point of doing?
MR. BAKER: If anything.
THE WITNESS: Treating them very nice.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you make a point of proving anything else to these people?
A: Yes.
Q: What else?
A: That my housekeeper can cook and that my mom's a great cook and that I'm a good host.
Q: Did you make a point of proving anything else that you were innocent of these charges?
MR. BAKER: That's argumentative.
Don't answer that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You said you were trying to prove to these people that nobody could see the lights, and that's for the purpose of proving some fact that you think is important to your case. Correct?
MR. BAKER: He didn't say that.
THE WITNESS: I didn't say that.
MR. BAKER: Don't. Don't.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Why do you prove this fact to so many people who come to your house? What's your purpose in doing it?
A: That's a question that's asked.
Q: It's always volunteered by the other person?
A: Except with the film company, yes.
Q: What do they ask you, these people?
A: Why no lights were on in my house that night.
Q: And what you do you say?
A: I say that was incorrect.
Q: What was incorrect?
A: That assumption that there were no lights on in my house.
Q: You know for a fact that all these lights that you just described were on?
A: When?
Q: You've already-I want to be clear about this. When you went upstairs at 10:15, 10:20, the only lights that you said were on--or that were on, I should say, were the lamp in the kitchen and the lamp in an entryway. Correct?
A: No, that's not correct.
Q: What else was on?
A: My bedroom lights.
Q: The only lights downstairs were the lamp in the kitchen and the lamp in the entry. Correct?
A: Yes, I believe so, yes.
Q: When you came downstairs the first time after showering and going to the bathroom and all that, you came downstairs with the Louis Vuitton bag.
Did you turn on any lights?
A: I don't think that's correct.
Q: What's not correct?
A: That I came down the first time with the Louis Vuitton bag.
Q: After you were dressed.
A: Yes.
Q: Came down with what bag?
A: Louis Vuitton, after I was dressed, completely dressed.
Q: Had you turned on any lights by then?
A: I don't know. I don't really know.
Q: What's your best--
A: I may have turned on--then I may have turned on the coach lights.
Q: When you came down with the Louis Vuitton bag?
A: No. I may have turned them on earlier.
Q: What time?
A: When I came down with my suit bag to look for my shoes and my golf bag.
Q: Before or after you dressed?
A: Before I got completely dressed.
Q: Half dressed?
A: Yes.
Q: No shirt on?
A: No shirt on.
Q: You walked downstairs with the suit bag and laid it outside where the golf bag is. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And at that time you turned on a light?
A: I may have, when I went back in, turned on the coach lights.
Q: And the coach lights but not the entryway light. Correct?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: And Park was already there at that time. Right?
A: He was at the gate.
Q: Not in.
A: Not in.
Q: Kato hadn't let him in yet.
A: As far as I know, no.
Q: And you went upstairs, finished dressing, came back down with the Louis Vuitton bag. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you turn any lights on at that point?
A: I don't think so.
Q: And by this point Park was there, Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you were half dressed and the phone rang and it was Park, why didn't you let him in then?
A: Because I didn't want to open my gate.
Q: Why not?
A: I didn't want my dog to go out.
Q: Where was your dog?
A: In the front yard.
Q: As it turned out, your gate was opened without your knowledge, anyway. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did your dog run out?
A: No.
Q: How do you know?
A: Well, I really don't know. Maybe he did. But Kato was there at that point in time, so I may have mentioned to Kato--I may have; I may not have, but I normally do. I wouldn't have worried about it because somebody would have been there to get her back in.
Q: Chachi?
A: Chachi.
Q: And when you--Was Chachi outside?
A: Chachi lives outside, yes.
Q: She never goes into your house?
A: She's been in my house once or twice, but...
Q: Was she outside on the evening of June 12 when you were doing the golf balls?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you went back down to go to the Bronco to get the cell phone and/or the cell phone case, was she outside?
A: Outside of the house, yes.
Q: When you opened that gate to go out to the Bronco, did she go out the gate?
A: At that time, no.
Q: Did you look for her to restrain her before you went out?
A: I always do, yeah. I have look to see where she is.
Q: Did you see her?
A: I didn't see her, so I knew she wasn't where she can go out.
Q: But when you were at the Bronco, she could have gotten out. Correct?
A: Which time at the Bronco?
Q: When you went out that time to get the phone.
A: The last time.
Q: The last time that you've mentioned to us.
A: Yes, but I wasn't concerned because Kato was there then.
Q: When you went to get the phone or the phone case and the windbreaker. Kato was--
A: Was there, so he could have gotten her in while I was gone.
Q: Did you tell Kato, "Hold on to the dog" or "Watch the dog"?
A: No. I didn't need to do that, no.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I didn't see the dog go out. Because it's understood at my house, as a rule at my house, because the SPCA has given us numerous warnings, as a rule at my house with housekeepers and Kato and everyone there: Don't let the dog out. So everybody is sort of aware that you don't let the dog out.
Q: And you were aware of that when you went to the Bronco?
A: I'm aware of that even every morning when I leave to go play golf.
Q: So you didn't want to let the limo driver in because the dog might get out. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yeah, and I didn't know if Kato was around or not, so I wouldn't have time to look for her.
Q: When you came downstairs the last time and saw the limo driver there, were you concerned that your dog might have gotten out inadvertently?
A: Not so much, no.
Q: Did you ask Kato, "Did the dog get out?"
A: No.
Q: Did you ask the driver?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask Kato or the driver anything about the dog?
A: I don't think so.
Q: You just said that you--I asked you a question about going to the Bronco. You said "the second time." Did you go to the Bronco another time?
A: Yes.
Q: An earlier time?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you go to the Bronco on the evening of June 12 an earlier time?
A: When I was chipping balls and looking for my sand wedge.
Q: You described what you did at the Bentley truck already.
A: At the Bentley car, yes.
Q: The Bentley car. Excuse me.
A: Yes.
Q: And when did you go to the Bronco in reference to what you did at the Bentley?
A: After I put my pitching wedge back in the trunk of the Bentley, I walked and looked into the back window of the Bronco to see if there were any clubs back there.
Q: After you got the pitching wedge out of the Bentley, hit those golf balls wherever you hit them--
A: Yes.
Q: --you put the pitching wedge back--
A: Yes.
Q: --took out the bag?
A: Yeah.
Q: You took out the bag with the balls and the windbreaker, you put it on the ground and then you went to the Bronco?
A: No, not correct.
MR. BAKER: Compound question and the sequence is wrong.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, the sequence is wrong.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let's get it right then. Okay?
MR. LEONARD: He did get it right.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I'm kinda slow. Let me see if I can sort it out.
Q: You got the--
MR. BAKER: This is the third time we are going over this, and I am not going to let him go over it again.
MR. PETROCELLI: He has not discussed going to the Bronco before at all.
MR. BAKER: Discuss going to the Bronco then, but you keep going back, and I think it's untoward to have him go over and over and over the same thing, and you've done it 15 times today; and you can talk all you want about him going to the Bronco the first time, but we are not going to sequence--we are not going to resequence the events that we've already sequenced.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let's try to move on. It's getting late. Okay?
Q: Did you go to the Bronco after you completed all of the activities that you previously described at the Bentley?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You had finished hitting all your golf balls. Right?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And you had closed the trunk of the Bentley. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So on the ground was the bag with the windbreaker.
A: Yes, I believe so, yes.
Q: Okay. Before you went inside, you then went to the Bronco?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You pressed the button?
A: Yes.
Q: Rockingham gate opened up?
A: Yes.
Q: You went out and you went to the Bronco. What did you then do at the Bronco?
A: I looked into the back of the Bronco.
Q: For what reason?
A: To see if I had any clubs there.
Q: Did you?
A: No.
Q: You could see?
A: Yes.
Q: Then what did you do?
A: I waited for my dog, and we walked around and came in the Ashford gate.
Q: You waited for your dog to do what?
A: I guess she took a dump.
Q: Oh, the dog had come out the property?
A: Yes.
Q: On the Rockingham side?
A: Yes.
Q: And you waited until the dog finished its business?
A: Yeah. It went over across the street and up a little bit into ivy and various things and took a dump.
Q: The dog did.
A: Yes.
Q: While you were standing at the Bronco?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Doing what? Just watching?
A: Yeah, just--you know, I had what they call a 3 wood in my hand, and I was swinging a 3 wood.
Q: Where did you get the 3 wood?
A: Out of my garage.
Q: And then that was after you did the chipping of the golf balls--
A: That was before.
Q: --with the pitching wedge?
A: That was before.
Q: You had gotten the 3 wood out. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you had laid it next to you when you were hitting the other club?
A: I don't think next to me. I may have laid it against the trunk, you know, the open trunk, possibly laid it there. I guess.
Q: Of the Bentley?
A: Yes.
Q: After you closed the Bentley, you then took the 3 wood?
A: Yeah, the 3 wood I had, and I was just swinging it.
Q: When you went to the Bronco, you took it with you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you take anything else with you?
A: Other than what I had on me?
Q: Yeah. Carrying anything else?
A: In my pocket, yes.
Q: What?
A: I had a cell phone.
Q: In your pocket?
A: Yes.
Q: How long had the cell phone been in your pocket?
A: Since I had gone into the garage. Actually, maybe not. Maybe I went and grabbed it after I was in the garage.
Q: Grabbed it from where?
A: The kitchen.
Q: When you went outside to go hit golf balls?
A: Yes.
Q: You went into the kitchen, grabbed your cell phone?
A: Yes.
Q: And put it in your pocket?
A: No. I made a phone call.
Q: On the cell phone?
A: Yes.
Q: Who did you call?
A: Paula Barbieri.
Q: What time was that?
A: I don't know. I didn't know at the time. I know now.
Q: Now, when you called Paula Barbieri from your cell phone, where were you literally standing?
A: In front of my house right behind my Bronco. By the time it was ringing, I was standing behind my Bronco. Q: Had you already hit the golf balls?
A: No. I hadn't even gotten them yet.
Q: You hadn't swung the wood either?
A: No. I was swinging the wood.
Q: So let me get this straight. You got the phone from the kitchen--
A: Uh-huh.
Q: --and you went outside the front door?
A: No.
Q: Where did you go?
A: Outside the garage door.
Q: You went into your garage from the inside of your house?
A: Yeah. It's right at my kitchen, yes.
Q: Opened up the light?
A: The light was already on.
Q: The back light? Was the door open already?
MR. BAKER: I don't know what the "back light" --
MR. PETROCELLI: He said there were two lights in the garage.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was already on.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Was the door already opened?
A: Yes.
Q: The garage door?
A: I believe so. Yes. I'm not sure of that, but I think so. I'm not a hundred percent sure of that.
Q: When had you opened the garage door?
A: When I came out to look in my Bentley.
Q: So when you went to get the cell phone in the kitchen, this was before you had gone to the Bentley to open up the trunk and look for the clubs. Correct?
A: As I said a few minutes ago, that's correct.
Q: So you went into the garage from the kitchen, and you went--opened the light into the garage. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Went out the front--went out the garage door. Right?
A: No. I looked for my sand wedge, and I grabbed -and I was also looking for a 3 wood.
Q: Did you find a sand wedge?
A: No.
Q: Found a 3 wood?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you do with the 3 wood when you came out of the garage?
A: I walked back to the door to the kitchen to push the button to open the garage door, and opened the door to the kitchen, walked in, grabbed my cell phone and walked back out to the garage.
Q: So now you come back out the garage with the 3 wood and the cell phone.
A: Correct.
Q: Then what do you do?
A: I put a call in to Paula and opened the trunk of my Bentley.
Q: So you were standing near the Bentley when you called Paula. Is that right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And the clothing you were wearing?
A: Was whatever I had on from--
Q: Dark blue pants and a shirt, the color of which you can't remember?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you talk to Paula?
A: No.
Q: Did you reach an answering machine?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you leave a message?
A: Yes.
Q: What was your message?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall anything that you said?
A: Well, yeah. I said I was wondering what was happening, because she hadn't called me, said what was going on.
Q: And--
A: And I thought it was her last chance of taking me to the airport. If I had of got her, we had enough time for her to take me to the airport, if she was in town.
Q: Okay. If she was in town, you were figuring that she would come over and pick you up?
A: Yes.
Q: You had already ordered the limo. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So then you went--After you made your phone call, what did you do with the cell phone?
A: Put it in my pocket. I may have just sat it there because I hit a few balls, and then grabbed it and put it in my pocket then swung the 3 wood.
Q: After you made the phone call, you either put the phone down or in your pocket.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: If you put it down, where did you put it?
A: Right there at the trunk of the Bentley.
Q: And you opened up the trunk, and you described what you did at that point.
A: Yeah.
Q: Closed the trunk.
A: Yes.
Q: Took your 3 wood, went out to the Bronco .
A: Yes.
Q: Dog went out.
A: Yes.
Q: And you looked into the Bronco.
A: Yes.
Q: And you were looking for your sand wedge.
A: Yes.
Q: You didn't find it. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: You waited for the dog to finish and then--
A: We walked up the street. She went across and up a way. First she went to Stanley Sheinbaum's stuff. and she walked up, started going up the grass to the other, and I was just on the grass walking, swinging, and then finally, "Come on, Chachi," and we went into the Ashford gate.
Q: The Rockingham gate closed behind you?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you entered in the Ashford gate?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you get into the Ashford gate?
A: Pushed it.
Q: From the outside of the gate?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You need a key?
A: No. I keep one gate on the hinge, and only we know this, but normally I would keep one gate off hinge. So it works if you push the button, or if you're walking the dog and you come home and you want to get on the property and you don't have a key, you just push the gate.
Q: You just push the gate manually.
A: You have to kind of know how to do it. You can't just walk and push it. There is a little trick to it that I'm not going to tell America.
Q: Okay. So does the trick still work?
A: Well, now I got security and we keep everything locked all the time.
Q: You pushed the gate; you went in with the dog?
A: Yes.
Q: On Rockford and closed the gate behind you?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you went inside?
A: Yes.
Q: Closed the lights and went upstairs.
A: I went--
MR. BAKER: I don't know what "Rockford" is.
MR. PETROCELLI: I'm sorry. Ashford.
THE WITNESS: I went in, closed the garage door, turned off the lights, yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And that's about 10:15 or 10:20. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you do with the 3 wood?
A: Laid it back--when I went in the garage, just put it back in the garage.
Q: Through the inside of the house?
A: What do you mean?
Q: You went in through the front door.
A: No, I didn't.
Q: You went into the garage.
A: Yes.
Q: You laid the 3 wood down?
A: Yeah, put it where it belongs.
Q: Then came out of the garage?
A: No.
Q: And what did do you?
A: Walked back into the house.
Q: And closed the garage door?
A: Yes.
Q: And entered in the house that way?
A: Yes.
Q: And went through the kitchen, then upstairs?
A: Yes.
Q: Does your garage door make sound-does it make a sound when it goes up and down?
A: If you're standing there, I guess you can hear it, yes.
Q: And the dog stayed outside on the property?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you--when was the first time that you encountered Kato Kaelin when you were getting ready to leave for the airport?
MR. BAKER: I don't know what you mean by "getting ready to leave for the airport."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know what I mean?
MR. BAKER: Well--
MR. PETROCELLI: He said that he ran into Kato sometime when he came back--when he came downstairs to go to the airport.
MR. BAKER: Okay. You mean when the limo--that's not getting ready to go, in my view, but that's okay. As long as we are on the same wavelength, that's fine.
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes, we're on the same wavelength.
Q: Do you understand what I'm saying?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay.
A: This is to the best of my recollection. This is--you know, I came out, dropped the two bags. I didn't see Kato. The limo driver was standing there. I think I heard Kato, because he wasn't standing in front of the house. I looked in my bag, and I went back into the house and into the kitchen, came back out, and then I saw Kato over by the garage and he was talking to me from over there.
Q The garage door was closed Right?
A: Yeah
Q: He was in front of the garage. Right?
A: Yeah, he was in that area between the house, the garage. He was talking to me in front of the limo, just in that area.
Q: Now, what was he saying to you?
A: He was talking about--something about earthquakes
Q: He said he heard--felt an earthquake?
A: I wasn't really paying much attention to him. I was trying to get myself together and he was talking, and I don't think I really focused on what he was talking about until I came back from the Bronco, and then I for the first time really focused on what he was talking about.
Q: The first time, before you went to the Bronco, he--what is your best recollection of what he said to you across from this garage area where he was standing?
A: He was moving, and he was just talking about an earthquake.
Q: He used the word "earthquake"?
A: Yeah. He did ask me if I overslept. That was one of the first things he said to me, "Did you oversleep?" And then he was talking about noise and earthquake.
Q: When he asked you, "Did you oversleep," what did you say?
A: I don't even think I responded to it. I don't recall really responding. I said, "I'm just running late," or something, but I didn't have any really specific response to it, I don't think.
Q: What was he wearing?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did he have shoes on?
A: I would assume so.
Q: You don't remember?
A: It isn't I remember. I didn't pay any-I don't know if you got on shoes. I haven't paid any attention.
Q: Did you see that he had shoes on?
A: No, I didn't see one way or the other.
Q: Can you identify what he was wearing?
A: Not at all. Or Alan Park, for that matter.
Q: Was he holding anything?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: He said something to you about noises?
A: He was talking about an earthquake, is what he was talking about.
Q: You mentioned before that he said something about noises. What did he say about noises?
A: He heard something. "Did you feel an earthquake"--
MR. BAKER: Are we talking about a different time now? We are not talking --
MR. PETROCELLI: We are talking about the same time.
MR. BAKER: Wait a minute. We are talking about him moving out by the garage area and the earthquake, and then you said--your question goes to the noises, and I just want to make sure we are at the same time frame.
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. He -in one of his prior answers about this exact event, he said Kato was talking about earthquake noises, noises, earthquake.
MR. BAKER: That's not the exact event. I want the question read back, please.
MR. LEONARD: And the answer.
(Record read as follows:
"Q. You mentioned before that he said something about noises. What did he say about noises?
"A. He heard something. 'Did you feel an earthquake'--")
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When he said something to you about noises, you are saying he said, "Did you hear something."
A: I don't think so. I think he asked me, did I feel an earthquake.
Q: Did he--
A: And then as--as I said, I was going in and out, to my Bronco and back, and he was talking about noises and -and hearing something, earthquakes. I mean, I really didn't pay any much attention to what he was talking about.
MR. BAKER: Most people don't.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, off of your lawyer's comment, was Mr. Kaelin to your knowledge typically incoherent in your dealings with him?
A: I mean, you guys seen Kato. Kato's Kato.
Q: Did you find him to be incoherent, by and large, in your dealings with him?
A: I found him to be Kato. Kato's very unique. I found him to be a very nice guy who is a little goofy, but I like him.
Q: You didn't believe at that time, June 12, 1994, that he was incoherent? A: I wasn't paying--Kato. for what I was doing at the time, he was totally --it was totally insignificant, whatever he was talking about to me at that moment.
Q: But prior to that moment, though, my question to you is: In your relationship with him, you didn't find him to be someone incoherent.
A: I found him to be Kato, and he's just not your everyday guy. He's Kato. He's Kato. I mean, you've seen him.
Q: In your conversations with Kato before that moment, were you able to communicate with him?
A: I've always been able to communicate with him.
Q: Now, when he mentioned this thing about noises and/or earthquake, had you felt an earthquake?
A: No.
Q: Had you heard any noises?
A: I don't believe so, no.
Q: At that point then, you went out to the Bronco, as you testified. Right?
A: I don't think--that's not necessarily what I testified. I said as I was doing all of this stuff, Kato was talking, and I can't say exactly--I know when he first saw me, almost the first thing he asked me was, "Did you oversleep and did you hear"--
"did you feel an earthquake?"
Then I was busy doing what I was doing; he and Park was talking, he was saying things, and I can't tell you exactly what he said. Between then and when I went out and when I came in, it was just about noises or hearing --
I wasn't paying attention to him. I just was not paying attention to him or Park when I came--I do recall asking him, "Well, doesn't he have a flashlight," and saying that there should be one in the kitchen in the cupboard.
Other than that, I--whatever he was talking about at the time meant-was insignificant to me. It really--I wasn't really--I was trying to get a flight to Chicago, a flight I didn't want to take.
Q: Did Mr.--Withdrawn. Did Mr. Kaelin tell you why he wanted a flashlight?
A: To look--I guess to look around the side of the house. I may have said to him, "Get a flashlight and look back there." I may have said that to him.
Q: What did Mr. Kato Kaelin tell you about wanting to go and look back with a flashlight?
A: I don't know if he said anything about. I may have suggested it.
Q: Did he tell you that he thought there were prowlers back there?
A: No.
Q: Did he say anything about that?
A: No. He just said he heard a noise.
Q: And he wanted to investigate the noise?
A: Pardon me?
Q: He said he wanted to investigate the noise?
A: No. He said he heard a noise, and I said, "Well, why don't you get a flashlight and look," and I made a suggestion, "Let's grab a flashlight. I'll go one way, you go the other way, and we'll see."
Q: Did he--
MR. LEONARD: Excuse me.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did he tell you what the noise was that he heard?
A: No.
Q: Did he describe the noise to you?
A: No.
Q: Did you in fact go one way and he went the other way?
A: I think we were about to, and it was very dark, and that's when I may have said, "Well, we better get a flashlight," and he went into the kitchen.
Q: Did he describe generally where the noise came from7
A: No.
Q: Did he say if the noise--he heard the noise in his room?
A: Yes. I assume that's where he heard it, yes.
Q: Did he say he wanted to go look in the alleyway behind his room?
MR. BAKER: Well, I don't know what you're referring to as an "alleyway," but if you're talking about the space behind his room, I'll certainly allow him to answer that question.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's what I'm talking--
THE WITNESS: Well, I obviously got that impression, yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And did you give him a flashlight?
A: We went and looked for a flashlight, told him where I thought a flashlight was.
Q: Where?
A: In the cupboard of my kitchen.
Q: Did you find one?
A: He looked and--I never looked. He looked and said it was. I noticed the time about that time and realized I needed to get moving, so I said, "Why don't you keep looking" as I was leaving.
Q: And then you left?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: And then we should leave, He's got very few minutes left on the tape.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, we'll stop now because he's out of tape, as you suggest, and we will resume tomorrow at 9:30.
MR. BAKER: That's a great segue: "Did you leave," and we're all leaving. Wonderful.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Orenthal James Simpson, Volume II. The number of video tapes used was three. We are going off the record and the time is approximately 5:25.
(ENDING TIME: 5:25 P.M.)
I DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT. SUBSCRIBED AT ______ CALIFORNIA, THIS ______ DAY OF __ , 19__. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON