REPORTER'S DAILY TRANSCRIPT SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA SHARON RUFO, ET AL., N/A, PLAINTIFFS, SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ (The following proceedings were held in open court, outside the THE COURT: Morning. THE CLERK: Morning. MR. BAKER: I'd like to place on the record that my client, Mr. I've made that representation to the plaintiffs' counsel that, if they I want to make it clear that he is not going to be available THE COURT: Did the Court in that matter indicate how long that matter MR. BAKER: No, Your Honor, but it's anticipated to go at least two to MR. KELLY: Your Honor, if I might -- THE COURT: You may. MR. KELLY: No one is questioning Mr. Simpson's right to be down there What I point out is, we shouldn't be forced to realign or alter our THE COURT: You want to make an appearance down there for that purpose, MR. BAKER: Well, Your Honor that's not -- MR. KELLY: Thank you, Your Honor. MR. BAKER: That's not the issue. The issue is, Mr. Simpson does not He's been available, and they know it. And Mr. Kelly is representing He's here. He's available. They can put him on next week. And they MR. KELLY: First of all, Mr. Baker clearly knows I'm not representing As I indicated, we would not be asking about any continuance down THE COURT: You make your appearance down there; you make your needs MR. KELLY: Thank you, Your Honor. THE COURT: Any other matters? MR. LEONARD: Your Honor -- THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. LEONARD: If I may, we originally were asked to provide a brief on And I talked to Mr. Gelblum, and he has agreed, if it's acceptable to THE COURT: Okay. MR. LEONARD: Thank you. MR. PETROCELLI: One other final thing, Your Honor. We had filed a little, short statement this morning on the Kelly Frye THE COURT: All right. We'll set it for November 5, 8:30. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you. THE COURT: Anything else? (No verbal response.) THE COURT: Okay. Bring the jury. THE BAILIFF: They're walking. (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of THE COURT: Morning, ladies and gentlemen. JURORS: Good morning, Your Honor. THE COURT: I understand there's been a request from the jury that we JURORS: Yes. THE COURT: So we'll adjourn tomorrow at 3:30. MR. BAKER: Thank you. THE COURT: You may proceed. MR. MEDVENE: Thomas Lange. THOMAS LANGE, called as a witness on behalf of Plaintiff Goldman, was THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in THE WITNESS: I do. THE CLERK: And would you please state and spell your name for the THE WITNESS: Tom Lange, L-A-N-G-E. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MEDVENE: Q. Good morning, sir. A. Morning. Q. What is your current business or occupation? A. I'm a private investigator, licensed by the State of California. Q. And how long have you been so employed? A. I've been a licensed private investigator since 1980. However, I've been employed as one -- actually working as one for Q. And what do you do in the course of your work as a private A. I do criminal defense. I do some civil work. I am involved in a Q. What was your last previous occupation? A. I was a police detective for the City of Los Angeles, assigned to Q. And how long were you a police officer? A. Just shy of 29 years. Q. How long were you with the robbery/homicide division? A. I was with robbery/homicide for approximately 18 years. Q. You've been a police detective, or were a police detective for how A. Police detective for approximately 21 years. Q. Were you in different units before joining the robbery/homicide A. Yes. Q. And what units? A. I worked central detectives homicide, central detectives robbery Q. Is there a difference in the function or type of matter that you A. Is there a difference -- Q. Yes, sir, A. -- in the nature of the cases handled, as opposed to other Q. Yes. A. Yes. Robbery/homicide division is a so-called specialized division Q. Did there come a time that you became involved in the investigation A. Yes. Q. And when was that? A. That was -- I was notified by telephone approximately 3:00 a.m. on Q. As a result of your being notified by telephone, what did you do? A. I responded to the location at 875 South Bundy. Arrived there, I Q. And what did you do when you arrived? A. I -- after parking my vehicle, I approached my supervisor, I approached them, and my partner I believe -- Lieutenant Rodgers Q. Did you receive any instructions in terms of what your role was to A. Yes; I was to understand we were going to take over the And my partner, Vannatter, suggested that Phillips take me on a Q. From the time robbery/homicide became responsible for the A. They were to stand by to assist us in any way that we deemed Q. And from time to time, did you call upon them to assist you in the A. Yes. Q. Did you meet at the scene, any officers from West Los Angeles? A. Yes. Well the detectives, Phillips and Fuhrman, and there were several Q. Now, had you ever met Detective Phillips before? A. No. Q. Had you ever spoken to him before? A. No. Q. Had you ever met Detective Fuhrman before? A. No. Q. Had you ever spoken to him before? A. No. Q. Did you meet officers Riske and Terrazas? A. Not at that time. Q. Had you ever met either of them before? A. No. Q. Did you receive a walk-through of the crime scene? A. Yes, with Detective Phillips. Q. And after the initial walk-through, did you have occasion to go A. Subsequently, yes MR. MEDVENE: Approach, Your Honor, to put up a board? (Counsel approaches board, displays blow-up labeled 875 South Bundy MR. MEDVENE: Can we have the pointer. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) With the Court's permission, Officer Lange, would I have in front of you what's been marked Exhibit 2057. You see it has Could you first address the schematic and describe that for me. A. This is a schematic. On the left -- this is to scale -- is the basic floor plan at Bundy, The scale you see off to the left here, the front here, Bundy Drive at Q. And are the distances marked out on the left-hand side of the A. Yes that's to scale. Q. Just give the ladies and gentlemen of the jury a brief feel -- A. Well, the scale gives us 170 feet from the zero, of course, all the Again, the front gate is here, and this is the walkway leading into And this is the walkway that goes along the north side of the Q. Now, let's start at the bottom picture, which is Exhibit 36. (The instrument herein referred to as a Photograph of walkway at crime Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) And that's a picture looking from where? A. That's a picture looking from, I believe, possibly the parkway here It also depicts the victim lying at the foot of the steps. Q. How was the lighting that early morning when you arrived? A. The lighting there was -- I believe there's, like, four Malibu That, combined with the vegetation, they were very difficult to see in There was another lamp in this area that was projected straight up, as Out here in the street, there was and overhead illumination; however, So while there was some light, I would say it wasn't -- there wasn't a Q. Difficult to see, walking on the street? MR. BAKER: Leading. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Can you describe whether it was easy or difficult A. If one were to look directly west, specifically looking down here, MR. BAKER: Move to strike as nonresponsive. THE COURT: Overruled. Finish your description. A. However, one just walking down the street, I would think that If one were walking the other way, you'd possibly be more apt to see Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Now, if we can go up to the second picture from (The instrument herein referred to as a Photograph, close-up view of A. That's the walkway just above the steps here that you see, just This is the corner of the building, corner of the condominium, should This is the walkway going straight up to the front, to the front door, Here we had what appeared to be bloody shoe prints, moving to the There's also depicted here what turned out to be a blood drop. That's Q. Now, if we go to the picture above that one, or the second picture Does that continue your walk-through? A. It's kind of a glare in here. Yes; these are the three steps leading up to the front door that you Again, you can see what appear to be bloody shoe prints leading toward You see a little more of the steps in that one. Q. And let me take you to the top picture of 719. What is that? A. This is, again, in the walkway toward the rear, looking westerly. Here's the rear gate. Again, this is looking westerly. And that's Q. All right. What we're going to do now, Mr. Lange, is place a number I have another series of pictures. I'm going to ask to you describe A. Okay. Q. Would you put on the board Exhibit 32, please. MR. PETROCELLI: TV. MR. MEDVENE: Would you put on the TV, Exhibit 32. (The instrument herein referred to as Front view of Bundy - photo of THE WITNESS: Can we go ahead? Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Yes. If you would, walk over. A. This is a photograph looking west up the walkway, and this is the One of the victims is shown here at the foot of the stairs. And this MR. MEDVENE: Excuse me, Your Honor. Would it be possible to dim the THE COURT: Can you see? JURORS: (Nod affirmatively) THE COURT: Do you have any problems seeing? (Indicating to jurors) JUROR: I can't see very well. THE COURT: All right; dim the lights. JUROR: Oh that's better. THE COURT: Okay. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) And when we go through, maybe you can generally A. Okay. Q. So we talked a bit about Exhibit 32 and what you saw. And could you just point out where on the schematic that would be. A. Okay. Again, this photo appears to be taken from the parkway area, And what you're looking at here is the front gate, that's here, and Q. Okay. Go to Exhibit 91, please. A. 91 is a close-up, much closer than the previous photograph. And The gate here is open; it's -- the gate is wide open. That's basically (The instrument herein referred to as Close-up photo of the crime Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Go to Exhibit -- excuse me. The other victim was A. The other victim was found off to the right, here. It's behind a Q. Exhibit 38, please. Is that the area you were just pointing to? A. Yes, that's the second victim. This photo is looking down in a north by northwesterly direction. And (Indicating to schematic.) Q. Exhibit 43, please. (Exhibit 43 displayed.) A. That's a photograph looking directly down on the front steps. That And to the right of the photograph, at the foot of the steps, you see Looking directly down at this photo, directionally north would be to Q. Put on Exhibit 45, please. A. Exhibit 45 depicts what turned out to be bloody shoe prints. This is the walkway above the steps, back up in this area. And this is (The instrument herein referred to as Photo of steps and walkway with Q. In other words, that's right at the top of the steps that we saw in A. Yeah. The steps are down in this area here. And again, this is up in here. (Indicating to schematic.) Q. And the steps on the 875 south Bundy board, if you could, point to A. Here are the steps right here. (Indicating to schematic.) A. We're looking in this photograph. We're looking up in this area Q. If you went over to the picture on the 875 Bundy board, it's -- A. Below here. Below these two. Back down in this area. It's up over (Indicating to photos.) Q. We can go to Exhibit 47, please. (Exhibit 47 is displayed.) (The instrument herein described as perspective photo of walkway with A. This is more of an overall of the walkway. It's looking west Again, we see what appears to be bloody shoe prints leading west in Of course, here's the corner of the condominium. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) If we can -- if we can go to 1781, please. (The instrument herein described as a photo of walkway, marked for A. (Continuing) This is another. Q. Is this a continuation of the walkway, walking back? A. Yeah. This is going back. This is just off to the left. Here is the But you're looking back in this direction. This is a metal gate here, And just this portion is just beyond the front door looking west. Q. Exhibit 54, please. (54 is displayed.) (The instrument herein described as a photo of a descending stairway Q. So you're walking along flat, and then you come to some steps? A. Yeah, there's a stairwell going down. What you see here. And that A. And this is the stairwell on the schematic going down that -- you Q. If we can back up for a moment to 1781, that -- the one we have. Do A. Yes. They're beginning to fade. But there are remnants of what Q. Exhibit 54, please. (Exhibit 54 is displayed.) A. Here you can see, also, remnants of these bloody shoe prints going Q. Exhibit 55. (Exhibit 55 is displayed.) A. Appears to be another shot of that stairwell with the -- again, the Q. Exhibit 1782. (Exhibit 1782 is displayed.) (The instrument herein described as a photo of the Bundy walkway was A. This is looking directly down into this flat area here at the (Indicating to schematic) Q. And each photo was continuing back in a westerly direction? A. That's correct. Q. Exhibit that's within a 2051? (The instrument herein described as ascending stairwell, towards the A. This is also looking west. This is the stairwell going up towards Q. And Exhibit 2044, please? (The instrument herein described as parking area in rear of Bundy A. This is a rear of the location, say parking area adjacent to the This parking area is shown as the driveway in the schematic at the top This photo was taken from the rear of the walkway, roughly in this Q. And Exhibit 125? (The instrument herein described as a photo of rear of Bundy with jeep A. This is the rear of Nicole Brown's vehicle. The way it was found This photograph is looking from the alley up here, back the other way, Q. Have you now walked us through photos that start at the front and A. Yes. Q. I've now placed on the board, Exhibit 87, title: "The front portion Could you first describe for us, if you could, the schematic and tell A. Okay. Here's the schematic in the center of this display. It Here's the front gate area. Here's the steps leading up. We have bloody shoe prints depicted on the steps leading up. This is We have various dimensions here. In regard to the victims, this is a dirt area that meets with the We have, from the top of Ms. Brown's head, to the dirt areas, is 15 Mr. Goldman's left boot is eight inches from this walkway. We have a It's a 14 inch distance from the inside of the lower rung on this And then, of course, we have the photographs that have been marked Q. Let's take, if we could, the photo the furthest to the right as I'm (The instrument herein described as a photo of victim, Ron Goldman, A. Yes. Q. I'll wait for that. (Indicating to view screen) A. That's Mr. Goldman. That photograph is taken, looking in a north by Q. We're also, as a convenience, putting the Exhibit up on the TV If we can, move to the photo to the left of it, which is Exhibit 84, A. That's a close-up photo of a brown -- dark brown leather glove and You also see a partial bloody shoe print in that general area. But Q. That's Exhibit 89, incidentally. Did you ever find more than, or see more than one glove at the 875 A. No. MR. BAKER: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: No. MR. BAKER: Vague. Ambiguous as to when. It's vague, ambiguous as to THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) We'll go one picture to the left. (Indicating to Exhibit 91.) A. Again, that's the front of the location looking west on the walkway Q. The exhibit you were just looking at and pointing at was Exhibit Let me move up one to Exhibit 49? (The instrument herein described as a photo of the bloody shoe print A. 49 is a close-up of what appears to be a bloody shoe print. Looking Q. Does that schematic purport to show all of the shoe prints that you A. No. Q. If we go up one photo, the top photo on the left, that's Exhibit (The instrument herein described as a photo of a red spot with card A. 69 is a blood droplet located -- that was located at the northeast (Counsel displays Exhibit 69.) Q. I've put up on the board, 2058, victims' bodies in relationship to And the two pictures are magnetized. You can move them around if you A. Actually, it's pretty close now if you line these up. I would say Q. Okay. Would you describe for us -- we'll go to the picture at the A. What you have is a photograph looking down on Mr. Goldman. It's His feet extend out in a south by southeasterly direction. The clothing was disheveled, as you see it here. Q. Anything else about the body that you observed? A. Well, there was a great deal of blood on the left leg. There was a And I believe there's a little plant, a little vegetation here in the Q. If we can go to Exhibit 43, which is the bottom photo. (Exhibit 43 is displayed.) A. This is a photograph looking straight down at Nicole Brown at the I earlier gave you some distances. One was -- like -- as an example, Actually -- could possibly bring this down a little bit here. Now, Q. Now, about how far, then, would the top of Ms. Brown's head be from A. Well, I measured 15 inches. I believe it's 15. Yes. You see here the schematic from the top of her head. This isn't to the So if you were going to go in a straight line here, you'd have just Q. And from Mr. Goldman's -- trying to get a sense of how close it was A. Well, if you have that here, it was -- I believe you're talking Q. Yeah. A. And going this direction to his -- Q. Yes, sir. A. I have notes somewhere. I'm guessing it was maybe about 48 inches, Q. Now -- A. Actually four feet. Q. In terms of the area where Mr. Goldman was found, you mentioned A. Well, it's a tree, a large tree. And actually, when you take a This is vegetation coming out of the bottom of it. Earlier, when I spoke of a stump -- You can't see it. It was beneath Q. Going what direction over to the towards the steps? A. Over toward the steps. (Mr. Medvene indicates.) Q. Going -- A. Yes. You have it on here. It's just shy of two feet. One feet, 11 But again, this is -- there's three stumps. You can see two of them Q. Now using the tree as a cutoff, what are the approximate dimensions A. Approximate dimensions, I have -- it would be approximately six So this is approximately five feet, eight inches from this walkway to Q. Could you just, if you wouldn't mind, mark off for us, maybe in In other words, the area where you found Mr. Goldman, just give us an A. Well, I'd say perhaps between the wall here and the witness stand (Indicating to witness stand.) A. Maybe if you went -- this is just an approximation? Q. Yes. A. Maybe if you went from the corner back to maybe midway here. I (Indicating to witness stand and back wall, behind witness stand.) Q. Was there just what appear to be -- do I understand you correctly, A. There was what appeared to be the same bloody shoe print, partial This heel print appears to face this way or the toe would be facing Q. I'm going to put another series of photos on having to do with this Exhibit 138, please. (Exhibit 138 is displayed.) (The instrument herein described as a photo of bottom of Goldman's Q. I'm going to put this on the TV monitor. What's on the TV monitor A. 13 is the bottom sole, heel portion of the left foot of Mr. This was taken to accentuate a blood droplet that we were interested Q. Exhibit 24. (Exhibit 24 is displayed.) Q. Let me go back to 138 for a minute. That blood droplet you subsequently determined was who's blood? A. That blood droplet contained a mixture of both victims. MR. BAKER: Objection. Foundation, Your Honor; That he determined THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (By Mr. Medvene) Let's go to Exhibit 24. What is Exhibit 24? A. Looks like a pager there was a pager -- I haven't seen this in a Q. In back of Mr. Goldman's body? A. Yes. We subsequently determined that he had been caring that pager. Q. Going to place before you what's been marked 124 and ask you what A. 124 exhibits -- you only you want me to go to 78 first or -- Q. Let's go with Exhibit 131 first, which is this one? (The instrument herein described as the Bundy knit cap was marked for A. Okay. Appears to be a dark blue knit cap and a brown paper bag. (Indicating to bag.) A. 77 is a left handed dark brown leather glove also with a paper bag. THE COURT: That's a wrong exhibit number. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) The one you're looking at is Exhibit 12. A. I'm referring to the number on here when I said 77. I don't know Q. I understand. That's 129. A. Okay. (The instrument herein described as the Bundy glove was marked for Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) What is it again? A. It's a left-handed, dark brown -- appears to be a leather glove, Appears to be the same type of glove I observed at the scene. I can't Q. You observed it where? Can you point out on the schematic? (Witness indicates to photos.) A. Glove is right in this area here. You can see part of it. The knit cap is right here in this area. Here. Close to the -- close Q. Did anyone ever report seeing more than one glove at the scene? A. No. MR. BAKER: Objection. Calls for hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. MEDVENE: Exhibit 717. (Exhibit 717 is displayed.) (The instrument herein described as photographs of Bundy Crime Scene, A. This photograph is looking down on one of the victims, Nicole Q. Next picture, please. Also 717. A. This is Mr. Goldman's photograph taken to the north. The north is Q. All right. I'm going to move away from the crime scene pictures Exhibit 43 please? (Exhibit 43 is displayed.) A. Yes. That's the front steps again with Nicole Brown to the right. Q. Could you point out -- I'm going to go through a series just to A. I believe you have a partial right here. Q. By right here. We're looking at what steps? A. The lower left quadrant of the photograph, on the second step going Q. Okay. See any other shoe prints in that photo? A. No. I'd have to take a good look here. There may be some partials Q. Okay. Let's go to 44, please. Exhibit 44 is displayed) (The instrument herein described as a photo close-up of step and shoe Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Again, do you see any shoe prints? A. Yes, on this step. This is the -- would it be one, two -- the third Q. Okay. 45. And what I'll ask you, just on each is, do you see any (Exhibit 45 is displayed.) A. Yes. Shoe prints appears to be bloody shoe prints here, here and Q. 46. (Exhibit 46 is displayed.) A. This is an overall -- again, appears to be down in here. Here in Q. 47. Exhibit 47 is displayed) A. Again, going west in this area here, here. Q. 48. (Exhibit 48 is displayed.) (The instrument herein described as a photo A. That's a close-up. Q. 49. (Exhibit 49 is displayed.) A. That's another close-up of the overall peripheral of one of the Q. 50. (The instrument herein described as a photo of bloody shoe print was A. It's a pretty good heel print there, that you see here. Q. 51. (The instrument herein described as photo of bloody shoe print was A. That close-up gives you a pretty good idea of the dimension of the Q. 52. (The instrument herein described as a photo of bloody shoe print was A. Another close-up, where you can see the heel here and the front Q. 53. (The instrument herein described as a photo of a bloody shoe print was A. Another close-up on the walkway. The heel is to the right, lower Q. 54. (Exhibit 54 is displayed.) A. The rear stairwell, you can see here there's partial bloody shoe Q. 55. Exhibit 55 is displayed.) A. Little earlier shot, you can see here these partials going down the Q. 56. (The instrument herein described as a photo of shoe print on step was A. Is a bit of a close-up, also of another one on the walkway. THE COURT: You're going to hit the juror. MR. MEDVENE: I'm sorry. (Indicating to blow-up.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Place before you what's been marked Exhibit 67 And like you to orient us, orient the ladies and gentlemen of the And then take us through what blood drops were found from the front to And we'll go first to Exhibit -- (The instrument herein described as a photo of Bundy blood trail was MR. BAKER: I'm going to object, Your Honor, as to what he found. THE COURT: No foundation whether or not he saw -- Q. We'll go through each one and you can tell us whether or not you MR. BAKER: Well -- MR. MEDVENE: We'll start. MR. BAKER: The other way. THE COURT: Excuse me. Overruled. You may proceed. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Exhibit 69 is the drawing at the bottom right that Could you please tell us whether those two photos accurately depict A. They do. (The instrument herein described as a photo of the walkway Q. Could you explain to us, first, what Exhibit 68 is? What is the inside picture? A. 112. Q. Right next to 112. (Indicating to sticker 112.) A. This photograph, an overall -- the walkway looking west. What you Q. We'll deal with 113 in a minute. But staying with 112, where is 112 A. 112 on the walkway is right here at the corner of the building if This is the overall schematic. This is east. This is west, the alley 112 is the first blood drop I observed. That again was at the corner Q. It's picture 69 which is in the corner -- a close-up of a blood A. Yes. Q. Okay. If we can go up to what's been marked 70, which has the 113 (The instrument herein described as a photo of a red spot with #113 A. 113 is more or less a close-up of another blood drop. The second blood drop that appears on the schematic here, in the Q. And can you tell us whether or not that picture accurately depicts A. It does. Q. Let's go to the bottom row of pictures. The center picture which is Can you describe what that is and what was found on that set of (The instrument herein described as a photo of stairwell at the scene A. Yeah. There's a stairwell. There was another blood droplet that And of course, you see a close-up of that here in 114. Q. And where is that blood drop on the path, if you can relate it to A. The schematic is right here, as you can see, on the stairwell about Q. And is 114, the drawing that has 114 on it, which is -- which is (The instrument herein described as a photo of a red spot with tag No. Q. That a close-up of what you just pointed out on the stairs? A. Yes. Q. Now, if we can go to the top of the board to the picture that has And could you tell us, I'd like you to look at that picture and the (The instrument herein described as a photo of stairwell with open (The instrument herein described as a photo of red spot with tag No. Q. The staircase, yes. And tell us if you saw that scene on June 13, A. Yes, I did. That's the fourth in this series of blood drops Q. When you say this location, can you just spell out for the record? A. On the walkway at Bundy, it's inside and east of the rear gate. The overall of that -- you see it on the left here. And that blood Q. In relationship to the gate, where is it? A. Well, it's right east of and in front of the gate, middle of the Q. Um-hum? A. Here's the blood drop right in front of it. Again, if you go down Q. We've covered four blood drops. Where was there another blood drop? A. That was a fifth blood drop. Q. If you would go to the two pictures on the left-hand side of the And could you tell us what those pictures depict? A. Sure. The top, one, 75, is an overall of that fifth drop of blood, And then the bottom photo here is a close-up of that same blood Q. Can you tell us whether or not these pictures accurately depict A. They do. Q. So all total, there were how many blood drops down the pathway and A. Four on the walkway and one in the alley, for a total of five. Q. All right, sir. You can resume your seat for a minute. THE COURT: Let's take a ten-minute recess. Ladies and gentlemen, don't talk about the case. Don't form or express (Recess.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, outside the THE COURT: We are experiencing a possible medical problem with one of MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you. THE COURT: Thank you. SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA THURSDAY, OCTOBER 31, 1996 1:35 P.M. DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ HON. HIROSHI FUJISAKI, JUDGE (The following proceedings were held in open court, outside the THE COURT: We're proceeding at this time. The jury panel is not in the He, at the time I spoke with him, was still at the hospital, under the Counsel want to add anything? MR. BAKER: No. THE COURT: At this time, then, the Court is going to relive Juror No. Bring the jury in, please. (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of THE COURT: The jury has returned to the courtroom. Ladies and gentlemen, one of your number, as you know has had to be He asked to be excused, and the Court did excuse him from further I'm also advised that some of you have experienced yesterday, those of JURORS: (Nod affirmatively) JUROR 295: Yes. THE COURT: For the duration of this trial, ladies and gentlemen, you Okay. I think one of you jurors have indicated on your hardship I am equally concerned with your well-being; so if you -- any of you JURORS: Yes. THE COURT: Everybody okay so far? JURORS: Yes. THE COURT: All right. Thank you. JUROR 265: Thank you. THE CLERK: You are still under oath. And would you please state your name again for the record. THE WITNESS: Tom Lange. THOMAS LANGE, the witness on the stand at the time of adjournment, THE CLERK: Okay. DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. MEDVENE: Q. Did you have occasion during your initial tour with Detective A. Yes. Q. Would you be good enough to show us, Detective Lange, or excuse me, Haven't I put up Exhibit 18? A. This is when I initially got there the first time? (Exhibit 18 displayed.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Yeah. A. This being Bundy here, I went from the front on Bundy, down to Q. Okay. Sir. Now, when you -- did there come a time when you arrived at the rear of A. Yes. Q. Did Detective Phillips point out to you the rear gate of the A. Yes. Q. Did he make any reference to anything on the rear gate? A. Yes. Q. What do you recall seeing on the rear gate on June 13? A. A reference to, and what I observed, to what I believed to be blood Q. Is there any question in your mind that what you saw on June 13 MR. BAKER: Objection. Leading, suggestive, argumentative. THE COURT: I'll sustain that. The witness testified he saw what Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did you have occasion to visit the Bundy location A. Yes. Q. And what were the circumstances of that visit? A. On July 3, 94, I was requested to do a walk-through with the As a consequence, I met them at that location, and we entered through Q. As a result of that walk-through, did you give certain A. Yes. Q. And what were those instructions? A. I requested a criminalist, Mr. Fung, to meet us back at the Bundy I also requested that a photographer respond to the location. Q. Why did you give those instructions? A. I arrived at the rear gate; I observed what appeared to be, perhaps I also saw -- MR. BAKER: Move to strike as speculative, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I also observed, once inside the gate, the two drops that I believe As a consequence, we contacted the criminalist and a photographer and MR. BAKER: Can I have that answer reread? THE COURT: You may. (Record read by the reporter.) THE COURT: Is it giving rise to speculation? MR. BAKER: Yes, Your Honor. Move to strike. THE COURT: Correct the record. (Motion to strike denied.) MR. MEDVENE: I've put up on the board what's been marked as Exhibit (Exhibit 80 displayed.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Were you present, Mr. Lange, when the July 3 A. Yes. Q. And what do the July 3 pictures purport to do? A. They purport to show the blood that I observed on the rear gate on Q. Are you talking about the bottom-rung pictures? A. Yes, the lower, where it says July 3, the lower six. Would you like me to approach? Q. Yes. A. These six photos, the lower six, pertain to July 3, what I In my mind, these were the same two blood drops that I observed on the MR. BAKER: I object. This is nonresponsive to the question. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. MEDVENE: And you can resume your chair. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) You're talking about blood drops 115 and 116? A. Yes. Q. Now, let me ask you: With respect to the picture on the board, June A. The upper left, you have an overall shot of the rear gate, shot in The second photo over, you have more of a close-up of the rear gate, The third shot is a blowup of the second shot. So these are essentially the same photographs. This is a blowup of Q. The one on the far right is a blowup of the one in the middle? A. That's correct. Q. Do the pictures taken on June 13 show all the blood that you recall A. No. Q. And how do you explain that? MR. BAKER: Object, Your Honor. There's no foundation for that. Calls THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: These photographs were not taken to highlight blood on These June 13 photographs were not taken to highlight any blood on the Q. Can you compare them to the ones taken on July 3 and tell me the A. The difference from what? Q. In the photographs being taken specifically to highlight the blood A. Sure. As I pointed out, whether it's blood or whatever, the item that's There's a close-up shot taken for the specific item; in this case, the Generally, you'll have a ruler there. And this will be taken during the process of actually collecting a Again, this is orientation farther away; the close-up is your Q. And the photos you were pointing to as giving an example of the A. Yes, these two. These are the close-ups, or the identification-type MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please, the witness is pointing to what's Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) When you finished the initial walk-through with A. It had to be approximately 4:45 a.m., perhaps a little later, right Q. What then occurred? A. I went back out through the rear of the location, back down the Lieutenant Rodgers was also there, and I believe Phillips and Fuhrman. At that point, we discussed what to do with what we had. I made a Q. What were those reasons? A. We wanted to meet Mr. Simpson. MR. BAKER: I object, Your Honor. The reasons that this witness had, THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: We felt that -- and I felt or we -- MR. BAKER: I'm going to object again. Anything that uses the word "we" THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: We felt that Mr. Simpson, down the road, would be an It wasn't clear at this point which it was. We had two minor children who had been transported to the police We felt that there's certainly a possibility that he could be of Certainly caring for his children. I requested that Phillips and Fuhrman accompany us. Phillips told me that Fuhrman -- MR. BAKER: Objection to what Phillips said as hearsay, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. THE WITNESS: -- requested that they go with us. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) And what was your purpose in having Detectives A. Number 1, they knew the area. They knew how to get there. It was More importantly, we wanted someone to stay with Mr. Simpson after we I figured that perhaps there would be a another very traumatic Vannatter and I were to return to the crime scene and conduct the I had been told that Mr. Simpson only lived a couple of miles away, so Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Now, let me move you in time several days ahead, A. Okay. Q. Was such a decision made? A. Yes. Q. And had arrangements been made for Mr. Simpson to surrender himself MR. BAKER: Objection. Foundation. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Do you know whether Mr. Simpson was to surrender MR. BAKER: Foundation. THE COURT: You can answer yes or no. MR. BAKER: It's vague as to time when he knew. THE COURT: Assume it was before it occurred. THE WITNESS: That was my understanding. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did Mr. Simpson surrender at Parker Center on June A. No. Q. Did you receive information that Mr. Simpson was out at Mr. MR. BAKER: Objection. That's hearsay, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did the police, to your knowledge, attempt -- After Mr. Simpson did not surrender at Parker Center, did the police, MR. BAKER: Foundation again, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained as to form. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Were you the commander in charge of the A. I was one of the two lead investigators, yes. Q. Were orders given by you or Detective Vannatter, to your knowledge, MR. BAKER: Your Honor, the objection as to what orders he gave -- THE COURT: You may ask whether he gave an order. MR. BAKER: He asked more than that, but I have no objection to that Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did you participate in the giving of any orders A. I did not give those orders, no. Q. Were those orders given, to your knowledge? MR. BAKER: Objection. That calls for hearsay, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Do you have any information whether officers went MR. BAKER: Hearsay. THE COURT: You can answer yes or no. THE WITNESS: Yes. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did they go to Mr. Kardashian's house? MR. BAKER: Hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained to that. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) What information do you have as to whether or not A. I received information that they had responded to his home that Q. Was Mr. Simpson there? A. No. MR. BAKER: That's all hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Later in the day, was Mr. Simpson located? A. Yes. MR. MEDVENE: Where -- MR. BAKER: Just a minute, Mr. Medvene. There's no foundation. THE COURT: I've sustained all these objections, Mr. Baker. But if it MR. BAKER: I object to the Court's comments. I'm entitled to make THE COURT: That's exactly what I said. MR. BAKER: I don't appreciate the Court's comment. I would appreciate THE COURT: I made the comments. I'll stick by them. Go ahead. MR. MEDVENE: Yes, Your Honor. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Was Mr. Simpson, to your knowledge, located later A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Calls for hearsay. THE COURT: He may answer yes or no. THE WITNESS: Yes. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Where was Mr. Simpson located, to your knowledge? A. Initially, he was located -- I believe it was northbound on the 405 Q. Did there come a time later on June 17, after the time he was A. Yes. Q. At the time he was arrested, were any possessions taken from him? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Object. There's no foundation for this, Your Honor, unless THE COURT: Sustained. Answer stricken. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) To your knowledge -- Strike that. Was Mr. Simpson's car -- Strike that. Was the vehicle Mr. Simpson was traveling in impounded at the time of A. Yes. Q. As part of the impounding of the car, were certain items taken? A. Yes. Q. What items? A. There was a .357 revolver; there was a black leather traveling bag, Basically, I think that's it. Q. Was the traveling bag impounded? A. Yes. I testified to a black leather, what I call a travel bag. Q. What -- did you examine the items that were in the traveling bag? A. Yes. Q. What items were in the traveling bag? MR. BAKER: I'm going to object, Your Honor. That's asked and answered. THE COURT: Overruled. If he looked at the travel bag, you may inquire. If you're just asking him to state what somebody else found, Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) I'm asking him: Did you look in the travel bag? A. Subsequently, yes. Q. What did you find? A. I found what appeared to be changes of underwear; there were There was an NFL Pro Football Hall of Fame ring; there was what I There was a passport in the name of Mr. Simpson. I believe that was it. There might have been some other smaller items, Q. Any -- MR. BAKER: I'm going to object and move to strike if -- it's leading THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: There were keys. I believe there was some kind of address MR. MEDVENE: Can you put up 690, please. (Exhibit 690 is displayed) (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of items contained in Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) We have on the board, Exhibit 690. Have you seen what that picture portrays when you examined Mr. A. Yes, that appears to be the what I would term a disguise kit or MR. MEDVENE: Would you put up 689, please. (Exhibit 689 displayed.) (The instrument herein referred to as Mr. Simpson's Passport was Q. MR. MEDVENE: Can you tell us whether or not that passport was the A. Appears to be the one, yes. MR. MEDVENE: Would you put up 676, please. (The instrument herein referred to as A .357 magnum revolver was Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Do you recognize that? A. That appears to be the .357 revolver that I alluded to earlier. MR. MEDVENE: Excuse me. Put that back. Thank you. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Do you recognize what has "item 64" next to it, A. Yes. Six .357 rounds of ammunition taken from the cylinder of the (The instrument herein referred to as Six .357 rounds of ammunition MR. MEDVENE: Would you put up 699, please. (Exhibit 699 displayed.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Recognize that? A. Yes. That's the two keys with the -- appeared to be some type of -- (The instrument herein referred to as Smokey the Bear key ring with MR. MEDVENE: Put up 698, please. (Exhibit 698 displayed.) THE WITNESS: Also appears to be one of the key rings with pen knife. (The instrument herein referred to as key ring with Bentley insignia, Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Were those items found in the bag? A. Yes. Q. Did you determine whether the keys on Exhibit 699 found in Mr. MR. BAKER: I want to approach on this. (The following proceedings were held at the bench, with the reporter.) MR. BAKER: These keys, when they say they fit the condominium, there's THE COURT: Just a minute. What is your foundation? MR. MEDVENE: The foundation is this, sir: Detective Lange determined THE COURT: Say that again. MR. MEDVENE: Okay. THE COURT: From the beginning. MR. MEDVENE: Okay. Detective Lange made a determination -- THE COURT: Wait a minute. I don't like that word. MR. MEDVENE: All right. Nicole Brown had given the key to her THE COURT: He's going to testify to that. MR. MEDVENE: We can put that in through Detective Lange, that he MR. BAKER: Your Honor, the problem is -- THE COURT: Wait. I'm trying to digest this. Who's going to testify MR. MEDVENE: Cora Fischman can testify to that. THE COURT: Is she available? MR. BAKER: Sure. MR. MEDVENE: Yes. THE COURT: Okay. MR. MEDVENE: I'm saying she will. It's in her deposition. THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. PETROCELLI: I believe it's in her deposition. I can have that MR. MEDVENE: That she supplied the key; Detective Lange took the key, They then took two of the keys they found in Mr. Simpson's bag, and MR. BAKER: Your Honor, also Barry Scheck's house key fit that lock. If MR. PETROCELLI: We're not saying only but it fit the lock. MR. BAKER: Everybody -- when they made that demonstration, everybody It is a quantum leap to get the jury to believe that only the key that MR. MEDVENE: We don't think we have the obligation to say only -- what MR. BAKER: If that were the case, this is not the lock of Nicole THE COURT: Do we have a locksmith? MR. BAKER: Yeah, put him on. MR. PETROCELLI: The locksmith Lange used to make the lock from Cora's MR. LEONARD: I think he's on the -- THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. LEONARD: I think there was. MR. KELLY: Think there was a locksmith. MR. KELLY: There was a locksmith, like a locksmith that changed the THE COURT: You may examine, subject -- MR. BAKER: Judge -- Judge, this is foundation. THE COURT: If they're going to bring the locksmith -- MR. BAKER: No, no, no. THE COURT: It doesn't make any difference -- MR. BAKER: It makes a lot of difference, because it gives an I want them to put it on in the proper order. You keep telling me to THE COURT: You want what? MR. BAKER: That this -- THE COURT: You're -- MR. BAKER: All right. They say it fit; this key goes into this lock, and this is Nicole It isn't Nicole Brown's lock; it is a lock they made. Have them put it THE COURT: Okay. MR. BAKER: And do that. They don't need it if this is just trying to MR. MEDVENE: He did it all himself and watched it. THE COURT: Did what? MR. MEDVENE: He got the key from Cora Fischman. He caused the lock to If Mr. Baker wants to put on testimony -- THE COURT: Where is the locksmith? MR. MEDVENE: We can try to find a locksmith, Your Honor. We can. THE COURT: I don't think I'm going to let this evidence come in MR. PETROCELLI: Can we have the witness who the locksmith is? I think MR. BAKER: They can ask anything they want. They take this with all THE COURT: Well ask him. MR. MEDVENE: We'll ask him what he knows of the locksmith, if the MR. BAKER: Judge, you can build a lock every key will fit. MR. PETROCELLI: I think it was done directly under his supervision. MR. BAKER: I don't care. The work that was done -- THE COURT: What does this witness know about locks? MR. PETROCELLI: He was in the investigation. MR. MEDVENE: To determine whether or not Mr. Simpson had a key to get THE COURT: Mr. Baker is articulating an objection that I see. The MS. BLUESTEIN: Can I add one fact that I just verified the deposition THE COURT: Then, fine. Then she will testify. MR. BAKER: That's what she would testify. THE COURT: Same objection to this witness? MR. MEDVENE: We can do it that way. May we first ask this witness if he observed the locksmith? If he If he did -- if he did observe the locksmith make the lock from the THE COURT: Who was the lock -- where was it changed? MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Brown changed the locks around June 15, 16, 17. THE COURT: Nobody checked the key at this time? MR. MEDVENE: Not before he changed the locks. MR. PETROCELLI: The police didn't know he was doing it. He did it on All he had were these keys to her house; they didn't have the locks. THE COURT: My suggestion is, you bring the locksmith in. MR. MEDVENE: May I ask Your Honor if the -- THE COURT: If the locksmith testifies it's same key that Cora Fischman MR. MEDVENE: I don't want to violate the order. May I ask him one question, which is: Was he present when the THE COURT: What difference did it make? MR. MEDVENE: If he observed the locksmith make the lock and he THE COURT: I want him to testify that -- MR. MEDVENE: I don't know if he was. THE COURT: Excuse me. MR. MEDVENE: I don't know if he was there when the locksmith made the THE COURT: Why don't you know? MR. MEDVENE: Well, because we thought we could put this in, but we'll MR. BAKER: Your Honor, you know how you have those little locks on the That's what they did. That's what the point is, you don't have to -- THE COURT: I think he can lay some foundation. MR. PETROCELLI: Lay a little more foundation. THE COURT: Not with this witness. MR. PETROCELLI: What the locksmith is going to say is that he got a THE COURT: We have to hear the locksmith say that. MR. PETROCELLI: The locksmith didn't go to Cora Fischman and get a THE COURT: Fine; he can testify whether it's one of those locks that MR. MEDVENE: That anybody can open? THE COURT: Yeah. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. MR. MEDVENE: I guess we should just ask Detective Lange if he gave a THE COURT: You can do that. (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Detective Lange, do you know, based on your A. That's correct. Q. The key that you obtained from Cora Fischman, who did you give that A. A locksmith for the City of Los Angeles. Q. And what did the locksmith do? MR. BAKER: I'm going to object, Your Honor. This is obviously in THE COURT: Sustained Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did you give the locksmith any direction? MR. BAKER: Your Honor, I object to this. The Court's made its rulings THE COURT: Sustained Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did the locksmith for the City of Los Angeles do MR. BAKER: Your Honor, I object, and I object to Mr. Petrocelli THE COURT: You have to go all the way to your side of the desk. MR. BAKER: He can write him a note, Your Honor. THE COURT: You can answer yes or no. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. May I have the question again? MR. MEDVENE: Yes. THE COURT: Ms. Reporter. (The reporter read the record as follows:) "Q. Did the locksmith for THE WITNESS: No. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did the locksmith subsequently give something to MR. BAKER: Your Honor, outside the Court or the -- I object. THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer yes or no. THE WITNESS: Not to me personally, no. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did he give something to anyone, to your MR. BAKER: Well -- THE COURT: Sustained Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Do you have any personal information of what the MR. BAKER: In view of the last answer, that question is totally out of THE COURT: If that's an objection, that's sustained. MR. MEDVENE: We'll recall the witness, Your Honor. THE COURT: You certainly may. MR. MEDVENE: Thank you very much, Detective Lange. THE COURT: Ten-minute recess, ladies and gentlemen. (Recess.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, outside the THE COURT: Okay. MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please, we believe we have, as the That playing of Mr. Simpson's statement, which I understand is the The witness didn't testify at all about even being at Parker Center. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, under -- as I'm sure the Court is aware, he has We have the right to cross-examine this witness on the entire They have taken this gentleman from -- with some significant gaps that And we intend to fill in the gaps and to cross-examine him about his THE COURT: With regards to the tapes, the defense precluded to finish MR. BAKER: I would suggest as an expert as number one; number two, as He interrogated Mr. Simpson and we'd certainly like to interrogate him THE COURT: That's my -- that's my ruling. (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were resumed in the presence of the jury:) THE COURT: Juror No. 186, as to your request, it's not a problem with JUROR NO. 186: Thanks. THE COURT: Defense may cross-examine. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER: Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Lange. A. Good afternoon. Q. Now, Mr. Lange, when we took your deposition in June of 1996, you A. I don't recall the number of times. Q. How many times have you met with the plaintiffs' attorneys A. I believe possibly approximately three times. Q. Three times after your June 1995 -- 1996 deposition? A. Yes. Q. You had about five hours you'd spent with them before June of '96. A. I would say probably a dozen. Perhaps in excess of a dozen hours, Q. So total of about 20 hours that you've put in, since the acquittal A. I suppose that's possible, yes. Q. Now, as any of that time, sir, were you paid by the city of Los MR. MEDVENE: Relevance, materiality, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: Goes to bias, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Were you paid by the plaintiffs' attorneys for the A. No. Q. And do you consider yourself to be friends of the Goldmans? A. Certainly good acquaintance and I would like to think friends. Q. And do you think that your -- Strike that. Did you go to your A. I did, yes. Q. Were the Goldman's there? A. Yes, they were. Q. Did they go to your retirement party? A. Yes, they did. Q. And so you were all at -- both the Goldman -- both the Phil A. That is correct. Q. All right. And did you go to any other event with the Goldmans? A. I don't recall going to any other event with the Goldmans. Q. How about the Otis Marlow, Paul Tippin retirement party; were they A. I don't believe. Q. So Otis Marlow and Paul Tippin were LAPD officers that worked on MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Relevance, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Unless you're going to connect it up. MR. BAKER: I'll connect it up. THE COURT: Okay. THE WITNESS: They were part of it early on. I believe they were MR. MEDVENE: Excuse me, I think Your Honor sustained the objection. THE COURT: He says he's going to connect it up. I'll strike it if he Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And you know that after the acquittal of Mr. MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Relevance, materiality. Outside the scope. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I don't know if that was -- I don't believe they were Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Mr. Lange, you know that Ottis Marlow and Paul A. Yes. They came to the department, certainly. Q. You also know that you were responsible for giving 10,197 pages of A. No. I couldn't answer that in that vein. If you allow me to MR. BAKER: Deposition page 80, please. THE COURT: Mr. `Baker. MR. PETROCELLI: One second, Mr. Baker. THE COURT: They want to load up, too. MR. BAKER: I'll give you some additional time. I'm going to come back MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Thank you. MR. BAKER: You gave all of the audio tapes, all of the videotapes from THE WITNESS: With the proviso that they were going to all four I couldn't honestly say it just went to one group. There was an There's a letter of agreement; that was my understanding. So they did, Q. And in all of these 20 hours, Mr. Lange, and all these nine MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Argumentative, Your Honor. THE COURT: Well, you may ask that question in a nonargumentative way. THE WITNESS: I didn't see that as my -- as my duty or my job to see Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You gave the document -- Strike that. Otis Marlow A. I considered them friends, yes. Q. And you went to their retirement parties, right? A. I did. MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Relevance, materiality. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And you knew that both of these investigating A. They were representing the attorneys who were supposed to get all Q. And? A. I had no choice but to turn it over to them. Q. I see. It just so happened that they were -- you were -- they were A. No. MR. MEDVENE: Argumentative. THE COURT: Sustained. Jury's to disregard that. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, you have appeared, as I understand it, on Larry A. Yes. Q. Anything I missed? A. I believe there were probably a couple more, yes. Q. And it was to tell your story about the criminal case, right? A. To some extent, yes. Q. And by the way, are you -- are you now -- did you get the book deal A. I hope to. I certainly hope to. Q. And do you hope to put a chapter in the book deal on your testimony A. I don't believe so. Q. You -- A. We'll see what happens. Q. You have negotiated a book deal? (Laughter.) A. I have not signed a contract, but I am in the process of putting a Q. All right. And you testified at the preliminary hearing, right? A. I did. Q. Testified at the grand jury hearing? A. That's correct. Q. Testified in the criminal trial? A. Yes. Q. And let's start with your arrival at the crime scene at 4:25, okay? That's about when you got there on the 13th? A. That's correct. Q. And after you got there on the 13th, you took a cursory tour of the A. That's your terminology. Perhaps a cursory tour. We took a Q. And after you take your preliminary walk-through -- By the way, did you find anything of significance inside the house MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Relevance. Outside the scope, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Significant in regards to the killings? Q. (BY MR. BAKER) In regards to a double homicide. You were there to A. Not necessarily. There were some items of interest in the home that There was a knife that I observed that I was initially interested in, Outside of that, no. Q. Okay. Would you agree, Mr. Lange, that the time of death is of MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Outside the scope, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, he's been designated as an expert and he has THE COURT: Didn't testify as to time of death in his expertise. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Well, you noted on your walk-through, a cup of ice MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Outside the scope and not relevant. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WTINESS: There was a cup on the bannister in the lower level by Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And you told Ron Phillips to have the officer who A. I may have mentioned that, yes. Q. And was that important to you because that could be a clock that MR. MEDVENE: Relevance and outside the scope. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, did you -- did you see any Levis jacket in the A. A Levis -- MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Relevance, materiality, outside the scope. THE COURT: He may testify whether he saw it or not. THE WITNESS: I don't recall seeing a Levis jacket. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And you went through about 4:35, 4:40? A. I walked through. I wasn't looking at anything in particular. We Q. Well, you certainly saw a knife and requested the knife to be A. The knife was pointed out to me. Q. You didn't see it without -- I'm sorry -- I apologize. Go ahead. A. I did request that, but not at 4:25. Q. You wouldn't have seen the knife but for it being pointed out to A. I would assume that I would, in fact, see the knife, but that's not As we did the initial walking through, Detective Phillips pointed the Q. Now, you say you went out through the kitchen, through the dining A. That's correct. Q. Now, by the way, can you -- to your recollection, you have gone I mean, you went through there two times on the night of the 13th; you MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Vague, ambiguous. Going through what, Your THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You went through the condominium at least twice on MR. MEDVENE: Same objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: No, I can't say that. I don't recall entering the And I don't know that we entered between the 13th of June and the 3rd I qualify that, and I may be mistaken. If I could see some Q. You testified earlier, did you not, that you went over on July 3 to A. That's correct. Q. Is it now your testimony that you didn't walk through the A. I -- MR. MEDVENE: Objection. That's argumentative. "Is it now your MR. BAKER: I think that we would object to the speaking objection of THE COURT: Okay. Overruled. THE WITNESS: I don't recall testifying to walking through the Again, I would like to qualify that. We may have gone in; I just don't Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Do you know if you can see the kitchen from the MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Relevance, materiality, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: From the outside? Q. (BY MR. BAKER) No, standing outside, with the front door open. A. That's what I meant, from the outside. Q. Fair enough. A. See the kitchen? Q. Yeah. A. I don't believe so. Q. So you couldn't see the telephone or anyone on the telephone from A. I couldn't. Q. Yeah. A. Well, I don't believe -- if the door was closed, I don't believe Q. Well, with it open? A. I believe if you look, you can see, perhaps, the entryway, the east Q. Okay. Now, after you walked through the condominium the first time A. No; it was June 13. Q. I apologize. A. And we went up the stairs and walked directly through to the front Q. And then after you were out the front walkway, you then walked back A. Initially, we went to the right, down towards where the bodies At that point, Detective Phillips attempted to point out various Q. And is that the time that you noted the bloody foot prints or was A. The shoe prints I noted immediately there. They were pointed out to Q. Now, this morning you talked about footprints going in a westward A. Shoe prints, yes. Q. Shoe prints, pardon me. How many -- well, was there a reason you couldn't indicate that they You can answer that yes or no. A. Yes. Q. In the -- you described earlier, did you not, shoe prints going That is in your criminal testimony? A. I think I described a heel mark that appeared to be pointing Q. And that's the shoe print on the step? If you can come over here. (Indicating to board labeled front portion of 875 South Bundy.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Correct? A. Yeah. These are shoe prints going west. Q. This shoe print is going west? A. No. Generally the trail is going west. Q. Okay. This shoe print is going east? (Indicating to schematic.) A. Whoever put this on here does, in fact, have it pointing east. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) There was another shoe print up the walkway that A. No. I believe there was an area back up in here where it appears Q. You can resume the stand. It was your testimony that whoever perpetrated these crimes, turned A. I don't believe that was the testimony. I believe it was turned Q. And got as far down as the step, correct? A. No. I believe some turning movements -- those shoe prints are all Q. So the one shoe print on the step is not a shoe print going east at A. Well, it's depicted on there. It's going east. I don't recall. What I'm referring to is up closer to the entrance. This is what I'm referring to an area that's up closer to the entrance where there Q. So you can tell from a shoe print that a person is turning and A. All I can do is go by the heel marks and the toe marks. I suppose Q. Well, are you telling us, Mr. Lange, that the shoe prints went east A. The ones up farther. Q. Yes. A. I'm not telling you in either direction. I'm telling you that they Q. All right. Now, when -- strike that. Your testimony is that whoever perpetrated these crimes, turned around A. Again, my recollection is that the person -- Q. I'm not asking -- MR. MEDVENE: If court please -- Q. (BY MR. BAKER) -- I'm asking what you're testimony is. MR. MEDVENE: If court please, he should have a turn to answer Mr. THE COURT: This witness is not responding to the question. The witness THE WITNESS: I would request the question again. Perhaps I Q. (BY MR. BAKER) My question, sir, is: Is it your testimony that the A. That's what the interpretation -- I saw that the shoe prints lead Q. Shoe prints. As far as you were concerned, the perpetrator walked A. That's what the shoe prints would indicate. Q. That's -- so that is your testimony? A. That's what I saw, yes. Q. That's what -- and that's what you determined on the night of June A. That's what I observed. Q. All right. Fair enough. Now, you, on the night of the 13th, after A. Actually, it was in the morning of the 13th, yes. Q. All right. You talked to Phillips, Fuhrman and Vannatter, right? A. I believe it was Phillips, Vannatter and Rodgers. Q. Fuhrman wasn't there? A. He was there, but I don't recall having a discussion with him. Q. And at that point in time, how many officers were at the scene; A. I have to consult the log. There were possibly -- I'll give you an Q. 20? A. That's probably a pretty close estimate. Q. Now, the bodies had been discovered and it was told to you that the A. That's correct. Q. And so it is now at the time that you are having this discussion A. That's going on 5:00 A.M., perhaps quarter of. Q. And you were aware at 5:00 A.M. in the morning that nobody had A. Not entirely. I was aware that certain photographs had been taken, Q. No criminalist picked up or collected any evidence at this time, A. That's correct. Q. And you hadn't called for any criminalist to come to the crime A. I had not. Q. You hadn't called for a coroner, for the L.A. County coroner to MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Relevance. Materiality. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: No. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) So, at the time when there was no criminalist doing A. Well, again, not entirely because there was some photography that So this happens. Q. So, knowing that you'd had a photographer out there that had been A. Certainly seems like the reasonable thing to do, yes. Q. Yeah. While you have a wealth of evidence at 875 south Bundy, two A. Yes. MR. MEDVENE: Question argumentative. Move to strike. THE COURT: It's stricken. Jurors to disregard that. MR. BAKER: And -- THE COURT: Excuse me. MR. MEDVENE: We would ask Mr. Baker not continue to do that. THE COURT: Not only does Mr. Baker interrupt me, you interrupt me. MR. MEDVENE: Sorry. THE COURT: I was making a ruling. MR. BAKER: Now -- THE COURT: Excuse me. I didn't finish. Objection sustained. Jury's to disregard the question and the answer. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, at the time that you decided to go to 360 north A. Detecting? Q. Yeah. A. Would you clarify that for me, please? Q. Do you know what detecting is? A. Well, I can think of the perhaps three or four different If you're referring to an on-going criminal investigation, well that And certainly the trip that you keep referring to as "to build a MR. BAKER: Move to strike as nonresponsive. THE COURT: Denied. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, it's true that the two relieved and the two new A. That's correct. Q. And at that time, again, you had called for no criminalist. You had MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Asked and answered. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You then got in your automobiles and drove to A. Yes. Q. And did you think that it would be a good time to try to engender A. Again -- Q. You can answer my question. A. Well, I'm trying to, sir. Q. Well, you can answer it yes or no. MR. MEDVENE: If court please, Mr. Baker should not interrupt the THE COURT: You may answer yes or no. THE WITNESS: May I have the question again, please? Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you think it would be a good time to establish A. Not necessarily just for that purpose, no. Q. And you knew that Detective Phillips was going to go to Rockingham A. No. Q. That wasn't part of the discussion that you all four had there? A. No. Q. And if Detective Phillips had said that, that would be incorrect? A. No. Q. Okay. A. He didn't say it in my presence. He may have said it in the Q. Well, wasn't -- with all of you, the idea that Mr. Simpson was A. Yes. Q. Now, Mr. Simpson was not, and you knew Mr. Simpson was not on July A. I did not know whether or not he was divorced, as I testified to Q. So the main concern in the personal notification to Mr. Simpson was A. Well, as I've testified, there were two or three reasons. Q. Correct. MR. MEDVENE: Court -- THE COURT: You may answer yes or no. THE WITNESS: Sure. In all due respect, there are some questions that cannot be answered Q. (BY MR. BAKER) How many times in the 30 years that you've been in MR. MEDVENE: Court please, relevance. Materiality. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) How many hours have you been a witness on the MR. MEDVENE: Same objection. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Do you know how to answer questions from the witness MR. MEDVENE: Same objection. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Mr. Lange, I'll ask it again. I'll have the Court THE COURT: You may. (The reporter read back the question as follows:) "Q. So the main concern in the personal notification to Mr. Simpson A. Certainly one of the reasons, yes. Q. Did you have any discussion about personal notification to Mr. A. Obviously the subject came up. Q. It wasn't a big issue, correct. The issue was the kids? A. The kids were a main issue. They were a main issue but there were Q. And the children of Mr. Simpson at the time you had this A. That's correct. Q. Now, so the four of you leave 20 officers or so at 875 south Bundy MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Asked and answered several times. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Takes you about five, six minutes to get to MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Outside the scope. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Approximately. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) When you get to 875 south Bundy, or -- strike that. You get to the Rockingham address of Mr. Simpson, both of the cars A. Yes. Q. And you thought it would take four of you to take care of the kids; MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Argumentative, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you think you needed four officers, sir, to A. For that express purpose alone, no. But that wasn't the only reason Q. The other reason was to get this rapport with Mr. Simpson just A. When I stated rapport, this was also to meet him, to know who he's Q. And it was important to meet him and leave the crime scene with the MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Argumentative. Asked and answered. THE COURT: Sustained. THE WITNESS: Now, how long was it, Mr. Lange, before -- After you were MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Outside the scope. We didn't get into this THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: I'd like to be heard on that. THE COURT: You may present when you call him as a witness. MR. BAKER: Well, Your Honor, I would love the Court to please look at MR. MEDVENE: If court, please -- MR. BAKER: -- The cases I cited. THE COURT: I will sustain the objection. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You were one of the people who made the decision to MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Outside the scope. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Before you made the decision to go establish this A. No. Q. So am I to understand that it's your testimony, Mr. Lange, that A. That's correct. Q. Didn't say a word, right? A. I had no discussions with Fuhrman at all. If you'd like me to Q. You didn't hear from Mark Fuhrman at all, one word about any A. I don't recall hearing anything about it, a domestic dispute, from Q. Don't recall Mark Fuhrman indicating that he knew the way to A. I did hear that through Phillips. He said that Fuhrman had indeed been there on a radio call in the Q. And is it your testimony that O.J. Simpson, on the morning of June A. He was not, what I would term, a probable cause suspect. Q. I didn't ask you whether he was a probable cause suspect. I asked A. We really didn't have enough information. Q. You can answer it yes or no. A. Well, I'm trying to qualify the answers, sir, and I'm trying to Q. Can you answer my question and not give us what you want? Well -- can you just answer my question? Did you believe when the four of you got in the car, that O.J. Simpson A. There were two cars. I did not consider him a suspect in the murder Q. And did you have that as a possible, a probable or potential, none MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Argumentative, and it's also not relevant to THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer. THE WITNESS: You can't start eliminating people before you receive MR. BAKER: Move to strike as nonresponsive. Request the Court reporter THE COURT: Answer it yes or no, or I don't know or whatever. But THE WITNESS: May I have the question read again, please? (The reporter read the question as follows:) "Q. And did you have that as a possible, a probable, a potential, none THE COURT: I don't know how you can answer that question. MR. MEDVENE: Compound, vague, ambiguous. THE COURT: Want to take another shot at that? MR. BAKER: Be happy to. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You didn't believe, then, when you got in the car at A. Once again, I can't eliminate people before I had evidence. He was Q. Wasn't a potential, wasn't a probable, just wasn't a suspect even MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Argumentative. It's vague. It's compound, Your THE COURT: I don't think so. Overruled. Anybody is a potential suspect Q. (BY MR. BAKER) He was a potential suspect when you went over there? A. Everyone was a potential suspect. We had no evidence at that time Q. Now, you heard Phil Vannatter testify in the preliminary hearing A. Well, actually I didn't because I was excused from the courtroom, Q. And he said that? MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. Excuse me. The question is THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did Phil Vannatter tell you that Mr. Simpson wasn't MR. MEDVENE: That calls for hearsay. Irrelevant. THE COURT: Received, ladies and gentlemen, only for the state of mind THE WITNESS: There was no discussion at all between Vannatter, myself Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you ever tell anyone that the ex-husband is A. No. Q. Never uttered those words ever? A. I don't recall ever saying that, that's correct. Q. In terms of -- in terms of Mr. Simpson not being a suspect in the A. Basically, yes. Q. And that was the sole purpose that the two lead detectives left the A. Well, that and leave Phillips and Fuhrman at the Simpson residence Q. You wanted to leave the other two detectives there? A. That's correct. Q. Oh. So, that was important for you to take them over there so you could A. To stay with Mr. Simpson, or whoever else happened to be at that Q. Now then, you came back at around 7'o'clock in the morning, right? A. Yes. A little before 7:00. Q. And again, there had been no criminalist called for Bundy by 7 A. No, I believe there was one in route and they were contacted and Q. Why don't you tell us the first time the criminalist got to the 875 A. I think it was sometime after 10:00 A.M. Q. So 10 hours after the bodies were discovered and reported the LAPD, A. Approximately. Q. Why don't you tell us, Mr. Lange, however how long it was after the A. Would have been coroner's investigator arrived about there Q. So nine hours? A. Approximately. Q. Now, after you got back from Rockingham and you spent about two A. I think I was there about an hour and 20 minutes, something like Q. After you got back, you then did an additional walk-through of the A. No. I did several things. Q. Okay. The no is responsive. One of the things that you did was go A. That's correct. Q. And you did that, sir, in your own handwriting and you took A. To some degree. Not everything, but to some degree, I did that. Q. Well, you documented the blood drops on the walkway, did you not? A. To the extent that I noted them in the notes, yes. THE COURT: Mr. Baker, I was going take a break in about five minutes. MR. BAKER: Okay. THE COURT: Take ten minutes, ladies and gentlemen. Don't talk about (Recess.) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of THE COURT: Okay. You may resume. THOMAS LANGE, the witness on the stand at the time of the recess, CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. BAKER: Q. Now, Detective Lange, you wrote -- co-authored a murder follow-up A. I believe it was part of one. I'd have to see it to see what you Q. You remember this was Exhibit 1061 to your deposition, and you were We've got to mark it because I don't think it's been marked in this A. Yes. Q. And that's a report that you co-authored, correct? A. Actually, I'm the one who wrote it. Q. You did write it? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, you indicated that you hadn't known of any domestic A. That's correct. Q. Okay. And you wrote on page 3, I thought -- 2. Sorry. Tell me if I'm reading this right: Upon arrival at the crime scene, detectives were met by Detective 3 Phillips stated the victim Brown was the ex-wife of O.J. Simpson, the Additionally, Phillips stated that Mr. Simpson and victim 1 had been Mr. Simpson resided at 360 North Rockingham Place in Brentwood, You then continue on: Detectives followed up to the Simpson residence That's what you wrote in your murder follow-up report, is it not, sir? A. Yes, it is. Q. And so you had knowledge before you went up to Simpson's residence A. No, no, that's not correct. Q. Thank you very much, sir you've answered the question. MR. MEDVENE: Court please? THE WITNESS: I did. I said no. And I'll gave you an explanation, if Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Let me ask you a couple more questions. You then state in here that, I went up to the Simpson residence for There's no mention whatsoever of any welfare of the children, is A. I don't believe in that paragraph that there is, no. Q. Now, in terms of your being at the crime scene at 875 South Bundy, A. Actually, I requested a sheet. Q. And you, being a veteran detective, knew that if you put something A. Not necessarily, no. Q. Well, you wanted to make every effort, did you not, Mr. Lange, to A. Contamination -- Q. True or untrue -- A. -- compromise? Q. -- true or untrue. MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please, the witness should be able to answer THE COURT: You may answer that question. Read that question back to the witness. (The reporter read the record as follows:) "Q. Well, you wanted to make every effort, did you not, Mr. Lange, to THE WITNESS: Certainly. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) So you directed some officer to get a sheet, not a A I originally said a sheet. I asked him for a sheet; that's correct. Q. They said a blanket. That was Officer Thompson -- strike that. A. Yes, it was. Q. Yeah. If he said a blanket, he'd be mistaken? MR. MEDVENE: Objection. That's not what the testimony is. THE COURT: Sustained. That was not what the testimony was. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) When Officer Thompson came to you with the blanket, A. Yes. I sent him for a sheet; he returned with a blanket. He MR. BAKER: Move to strike as nonresponsive, Your Honor. THE COURT: It may remain. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you allow the blanket to be placed over the body A. Yes. Q. And did you understand at the time that you'd be contaminating that A. Not necessarily. MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. It's one, compound, and assumes THE COURT: Assumes facts not in evidence. Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you have any understanding that you could take A. Certainly that's always possible; however, I had another reason for Q. And that reason, in your view, overrode the possibility of A. Without any question. Q. All right. Now, did you, in your conversations and meetings with Did they tell you what they didn't want you to answer? A. No. Q. They didn't tell you there was any subject off limits? A. I wasn't aware that I could discuss anything. I thought I was here Q. Okay. So you had no such discussion, correct? A. I don't recall anything like that. Q. Fair enough. Now, Mr. Lange, you were at the crime scene after you A. I believe I was called away sometime after 12 o'clock. Sometime Q. And during that period of time, from 6:45 until sometime after A. Most of it was done during that time, yes. Q. And that would have been commencing seven hours after the bodies A. Commencing -- I'm sorry. Seven hours after they were found? Q. Yes, sir. A. Approximately. Q. Now, when you -- strike that. It is important, is it not, to first recognize evidence at a crime MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor; relevance, materiality. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: What do you mean by "recognize?" Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Determine that something is, in fact, evidence, as A. Generally, that's true. Q. And would you agree, sir, that one of the critical steps in A. That's one of the steps. Q. And you made crime-scene notes from the crime scene on June 13, A. I did. Q. And you were trying to put in these notes everything of A. Not necessarily. Q. All right. Let me read your deposition. Page 207, starting at line 13, through 22. "Q. These notes were taken by you at the crime scene, correct? "A. That's correct. "Q. And they were taken more or less as you observed various things at "A. Yes. "Q. Were you trying to put in these notes everything of significance "A. Yes." Now, you made pretty detailed notes encompassing nine pages of Well, actually, I think there were more than nine. A. Well, nine -- Q. I apologize. June 13, 1994, that's when you made, I believe, nine A. There were nine or ten, yes. Q. And in the nine or ten pages of notes, you documented all of the A. Well, when you say "documented," I wrote them down, and they Q. And you talked about the blood drops out on the driveway, north of MR. BAKER: Why don't you flip that on, Phil. MR. P. BAKER: The notes or -- MR. BAKER: Yeah, page 9 of his notes. THE COURT: Is that an Exhibit? MR. P. BAKER: No, not yet. MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please, it shouldn't be displayed at this MR. BAKER: I'll be happy -- you can put it off -- I'll be happy to lay Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Mr. Lange, these are your notes, are they not? A. Yes, a copy. Q. Those are a copy and those are the notes we just talked about that A. Yes. Q. And that's in your handwriting? A. Yes, it is. Q. And that's your documentation of the crime scene when you were A. Correct. Q. And you tried to put in everything of significance that you A. Well, for the most part, yes, there are areas that I wouldn't Q. So that when you stated in your deposition you wanted to put down A. Not necessarily. I think you're asking for a black-or-white answer Q. I'm asking for a truthful one. A. That's exactly what I'm trying to give you. Q. Now, let's put it -- MR. BAKER: What's the next number in order? THE CLERK: 2107. MR. BAKER: What Is it? I'm sorry. THE CLERK: 2107. MR. BAKER: Let's put up page 9, please. (The instrument herein referred to as Notes of Mr. Lange was marked Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, on page 9, you document two dimes, 2 pennies of A. I do. Q. You document a blood drop straight down on the driveway, north of A. Yes. Q. You documented additional blood drops on the walkway inside the A. That is correct. Q. -- and the north side of the residence? And then you document blood droplets observed on the north walkway A. Correct. Q. And those were -- blood was very important, wasn't it? The blood drops were significant evidence, were they not? A. To me, they were significant because they appeared to me to be the Q. And then you diagramed and measured the gate, true? A. That's correct. Q. And you did not indicate a single blood drop on the gate in your A. Yes. I saw no reason to do that at that time. Q. I see. So that's the only blood drop that you omitted in your A. No. There were many blood drops that weren't documented. There were Q. Okay. Now, on June 13, 1994, you observed some blood droplets on MR. MEDVENE: Objection; relevance, materiality. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I did. MR. BAKER: That exhibit number? MR. P. BAKER: 2040. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, sir, those blood drops were significant, were A. To me, they were. Q. And you noted those in your notes, did you not? A. I did. Q. And they were significant because those blood drops were more A. No, I didn't believe so. In fact -- Q. Well, you knew they weren't the blood drops of the victim? A. I believe there's a very good chance that they are, indeed, the Q. And you asked or directed the coroner's office to -- to sample A. I did. MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. Outside the court's order. THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. MEDVENE: We object. Relevance. Outside the court's order. THE COURT: Well, to some extent, I'm going to allow cross-examination, MR. MEDVENE: Okay. Just may we be heard, Your Honor? MR. PETROCELLI: Can we be heard on that, Your Honor? THE COURT: No. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, Mr. Lange, those blood drops certainly could MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Calls for speculation. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Those blood drops, you told Ratcliffe to collect and A. I requested that of her, yes. Q. That never occurred? MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Same objection. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) To your knowledge, did it ever occur that those MR. MEDVENE: Same objection. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, you analyzed the closed-in area in some detail A. I believe so. (Counsel displays blow-up.) MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, for the record, there was an exhibit to THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. PETROCELLI: That is not what Exhibit 2040 is, according to -- MR. P. BAKER: 2040. I was in error. It's actually 835. THE COURT: 835? MR. P. BAKER: Yes. (The instrument herein referred to as Photo of victim's back was Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, Mr. Lange, you went into the area that you A. I went in it. Q. Yeah, after the body of Mr. Goldman had been discovered? A. I had been in there, yes. Q. And you carefully observed the evidence that was contained in that A. I did observe evidence in that area, yes. Q. And did you observe the boot that you talked about, the left boot I'm sorry. I can't make it any easier for you to see here. A. Yeah, I can see it. Q. Well, that doesn't comport with me going in there. That boot you I did observe that after he had been -- before I went in there, yes. THE COURT: Excuse me. What is that chart, Exhibit number? MR. BAKER: What is it? MR. P. BAKER: 1342. THE COURT: That's the big board? MR. P. BAKER: Yes. THE COURT: Thank you. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of blood stains from Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Looking at the lower right-hand photograph, there A. Can I take a look at this? Q. Sure. Help yourself. A. Yes. I believe that photo was taken after Mr. Goldman was removed Q. Didn't that indicate to you, as a detective of some 20 years' A. By looking at that, I have two interpretations of that. Q. Well, can you answer my question, sir? A. I'll try. Q. My question was: The fact that you see blood and caked dirt, A. That's certainly possible, yes. Q. And is it probable? A. Yes, it is. I would say it is. Q. If that would that be a reasonable interpretation of the dirt on A. That's reasonable. Q. And indeed, did you observe sir, the blood-pattern evidence on the MR. MEDVENE: Objection; relevance, materiality, outside the scope. THE COURT: You may answer whether you observed it or not. This witness testified to observation of blood in the location you THE WITNESS: I observed what might be termed pattern evidence, but Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, the blood evidence that's on the bar that goes A. Yes. Q. And the -- there is -- that over there in the middle picture on the Is that a blood smear or blood stain? A. This picture here? Q. Yes, sir. A. Suppose one could describe that as perhaps a swipe or some type of Q. Very well. Don't you detectives have -- and criminalists have certain vernacular In other words, a swipe or something else, or a transfer? Is it a swipe, in your opinion, as contrasted to a smear? A. Well, I don't necessarily differentiate between a swipe and a Q. Okay. A. I suppose that could be a said subjective thing. Q. But in any event, sir, even though you don't differentiate, did A. To me, just looking at these photos, it would indicate the Q. And then if you look at the upper right-hand photo -- and that's A. Yeah. I was just looking at the relationship here. Yeah. Q. There is a -- there's blood evidence on the lower rung of the A. I don't know that. I couldn't necessarily say that he had been Q. He was at least above the area where the blood is seen on that MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please, opinions are requested that are way THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You would agree with that, sir? A. Possibility. Q. Probability, would you not agree? A. Well, not necessarily. Q. There's some blood that came from above that bar, did it not, sir? A. Again, it's a possibility; unless someone were lying there, reached Q. Is that not a drop, as contrasted to a smear? I'm talking -- A. You're looking down here. You told me the bottom rung. Are you Q. No, sir; that's what I was referring to. A. Perhaps you could specifically show me and -- Q. I apologize. Is this not blood-drop evidence that came down and dropped? And you can see from the tentacle is this not blood-drop evidence? And A. Yes, these appear to be drops, certainly. Q. Over on the right-hand photograph, that would appear to be blood A. Again, it's certainly a possibility. But as soon as I say that, I I'm telling you it's a possibility. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) We're here for your opinions. A. I believe I just gave it to you. Q. Is it a probability that Mr. Goldman, sir, was upright and above A. Yes. MR. MEDVENE: Vague and ambiguous on time. It's outside the scope and THE COURT: I'm going to allow some latitude on the blood testimony. THE WITNESS: It's certainly possible, but I can't say that that's what Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Well, you would agree with me, would you not, Mr. This block is outside Ms.` Nicole Brown Simpson's property. The fence A. Outside is north of that. Q. Correct. Correct. North. I'm sorry. So the blood evidence that is shown in the upper right-hand photograph A. Not necessarily. Looking at this, it could have dripped down, I Q. If it dripped down, in any event, both of those cakes of blood A. I couldn't say one way or the other. Again, I'll qualify that it's Q. Now, look at the photograph on the left side, the middle left A. This photograph here? Q. Yes, sir. A. 101? Q. Yes, sir. Now, you know the difference between a shoe print and a shoe A. I believe so. Q. And a shoe print is a two-dimensional impression of a shoe, true? A. That's correct. Q. And an impression would be three-dimensional; that is, the shoe A. That's what it is, yes. Q. And you believe that that area that the hole -- there was a hole A. No. I believe it's very possible it was made during the struggle. Q. But you did see the hole, correct? A. Yes. Q. How deep was it, six inches? A. I believe it was around six, eight inches, somewhere in that area. Q. How wide was it? A. I don't recall. I could speculate. Fourteen inches. Q. Let's not speculate. If you have an estimate -- you were there when A. Yes. This is different dimensions. It's dug out in different areas; Q. That obviously took some period of time to dig that impression A. No. That soil back there is fairly loose, and I would assume this Q. I see. A few seconds, two, three. Okay. THE COURT: If this is not a convenient -- Ladies and gentlemen, tomorrow is Friday. 9 o'clock. Don't talk about THE COURT: Witness is ordered back tomorrow. MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please, could we address you for a minute? THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. MEDVENE: May we address you for a moment? THE COURT: About what? (The following proceedings were held in open court, outside the MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please, we questioned the witness limitedly We didn't question him about generally a scene and what else he THE COURT: Mr. Medvene, I understand your position. However, the Court I've gone out of my way to sustain plaintiffs' position in limiting I'm trying to be reasonable. And I think reason dictates that I allow You offered this witness to testify to blood, what the blood looked MR. MEDVENE: We understand the purpose of the examination, Your Honor. THE COURT: Mr. Medvene, if the reasonable cross-examination has some MR. MEDVENE: We just want to make sure if it was open or not, Your THE COURT: I think I made my position clear. I think the defense MR. MEDVENE: Thank you, Your Honor. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you very much. (At 4:35 p.m., proceedings were adjourned until 9:00 a.m., Friday,
|