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REPORTER'S DAILY TRANSCRIPT SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA SHARON RUFO, ET AL., N/A, PLAINTIFFS, VS. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, ET AL., DEFENDANTS.
SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury.) THE COURT: Morning. JURORS: Morning, Your Honor. THE COURT: You may proceed. MR. KELLY: Your Honor, at this time we are going to play the tape. THE COURT: Okay. THE COURT REPORTER: Does this have an exhibit number? MR. KELLY: I believe it is 2195. MR. FOSTER: 757. (Exhibit 757 an audio tape of 30 minutes' duration was played in open court, commencing at 8:56 a.m.) ROBERT LERNER, the witness on the stand at the time of adjournment on Monday, November 18, 1996, having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows: THE CLERK: You are still under oath. Would you state are name again for the record. THE WITNESS: It's Robert Lerner. THE CLERK: Thank you. DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. KELLY: Q. Sergeant Lerner, on the tape, a high female voice stated, "I don't think you need us anymore. Good luck." Did you recognize that voice? A. Yes. Q. Who was that? A. That was officer Cheryl Kent. Q. That was another officer that responded to the scene? A. Yes. There were several officers. Q. Okay. "I also felt that if it happened one more time, that it would be the last time." Do you recall hearing a female voice saying that? A. Yes. Q. Were you able to identify that voice? A. Yes. Q. Who was that? A. That was Nicole Brown. Q. "He gets this animalistic look to him." MR. BAKER: I'm going to object. This is cumulative of what was already on the tape. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) "He gets this animalistic look to him." Did you hear that statement by a female voice? A. Yes. Q. Who was that voice? A. That was also Nicole Brown. Q. Okay. "And I get scared when he looks like that." Did you hear that statement by a female voice? A. Yes. Q. And can you identify that voice for us, please. A. Nicole Brown. Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: I have no further questions. THE COURT: Cross. CROSS-EXAMINATION MR. BAKER: Do you want me to have your notes, Mr. Kelly? MR. KELLY: No. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Good morning. A. Good morning. Q. When you met with Mr. Kelly on Friday, were you on LAPD time? A. Yes. Q. And LAPD paid for you to go over the tapes and meet with Mr. Kelly to get ready for your testimony in this case, right? A. I was on call for court; I was under subpoena. Q. Maybe you didn't understand the question. The question was: LAPD paid for you to review the tape, meet with Mr. Kelly, and prepare yourself to testify in this civil litigation, true? A. Yes. Q. All right. Now, the tape that we just heard, that tape was done surreptitiously, was it not? A. Correct. Q. And by "surreptitiously," you didn't know that tape was being taped when it was being taped, correct? A. Correct. Q. You have no reason to believe that Mr. Simpson nor Nicole Brown Simpson knew that that was being taped, true? A. No reason to believe that at all. Q. And you have -- in terms of the LA Police Department procedure, that tape was evidence, was it not? MR. KELLY: Objection. Argumentative, speculative by this witness, Your Honor. He indicated it was surreptitious. He didn't even know the tape was being made. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Let me ask it this way. Sergeant Lally was your supervisor, correct? A. Correct. Q. He's the one that taped that surreptitiously, without anyone knowing it but him, as far as you are aware, true? A. Yes. Q. And he had an obligation under LAPD procedures to book that tape, but never did until after June 12, 1994; isn't that correct? MR. KELLY: Objection. Lack of foundation. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Well, let me ask you this then, sir: Until you were to testify in the criminal trial -- and you testified on February 3, 1995 -- you didn't even know that tape existed; isn't that correct? A. I found out just a couple days before I went on to testify. Q. So you found out about that tape on February 1, 1995, thereabouts? A. Yeah. Q. And I take it that you were somewhat surprised that there was a tape that had been made and no one had ever informed you about it, since you were the principal person talking on that tape, correct? A. One of the principals. Yes, I was surprised. Q. And did you ever have a conversation with Sergeant Lally about his failure to book that tape as evidence after the incident of 10-25-93? MR. KELLY: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence; calls for speculation; argumentative. THE COURT: It's hearsay. Sustained. MR. KELLY: Hearsay. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Well, did you do anything as a result of your knowledge that the tape -- strike that. Did -- did you check to find out if that tape was ever booked as evidence before you heard it on February 1, 1995? A. No. Q. Had you taped that conversation, you would agree it would be required that that particular tape be booked as evidence? MR. KELLY: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, there was no contact and no threat of contact on October 25, 1993 that the -- about the incident on 3-25; is that correct? MR. KELLY: Objection. Calls for speculation. I believe this witness testified he wasn't aware; therefore -- THE COURT: I'll sustain it as far as to form. You may inquire whether the witness heard any. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Let me read from your trial transcript, sir. MR. KELLY: Objection. There's no foundation for reading from the transcript; it's not a part of the -- THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you testify on February 3, 1995, that there had been no physical contact and the incident never escalated to physical contact. MR. KELLY: Same objection. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Yes. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And that was your state of mind then, and that's your state of mind now, correct, that that incident was, as Mr. Simpson's -- well, strike that. We heard on the tape, Mr. Simpson say there was never even close to contact. You heard that, did you not? A. I heard that. Q. That's what he told you, is it not, sir? A. Yes. Q. You also were told by Nicole Brown Simpson that he had not physically touched her since January 1, 1989; you heard that as well, did you not? MR. KELLY: Objection. Misstates the evidence, Your Honor. That's not what the statement was. THE COURT: You may rephrase it. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You were aware from your being at the 325 South Gretna Green on October 25, 1993, that Nicole Brown Simpson indicated that she hadn't been struck by Mr. Simpson since January 1, 1989, true? A. I don't recall her saying that. Q. Now, when you arrived, was Nicole Brown Simpson upstairs or downstairs in the home at 325 South Gretna Green? A. I'm not sure. We were out front. Q. When you first made contact with her, where was she? A. She met us out front. Q. All right. And so at that point in time, then, you -- Strike that. She had been upstairs, locked in her bedroom when she made the 911 call that you've also heard in preparation for your testimony, correct? A. I believe that she said that she went upstairs and locked herself in the bedroom and called the police. THE COURT: The record should be clear that I kept him outside the courtroom while the tape was played so he could not have heard it during this trial. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) But you heard the 911 tape in preparation -- before your coming here to court, right? A. I heard it on TV once. Q. Okay. And Nicole Brown, at the time that you heard her voice on the 911 tape, not the Lally surreptitious tape but the 911 tape, was upstairs, locked in her room, right? A. If you say so. Q. And when you -- MR. KELLY: Objection. That's argumentative. This witness has no knowledge. THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. KELLY: I'm sorry. THE COURT: What's the objection? MR. KELLY: Lack of foundation. He just answered, "if you say so." He's indicated he has no knowledge as to the content of that tape, Your Honor. THE COURT: So what's the objection? MR. KELLY: That the last question -- answer -- there's no -- lack of foundation. It's also argumentative. He asked him a question the response is -- THE COURT: How could the answer be argumentative? MR. KELLY: "If you say so," Your Honor; that's his answer. THE COURT: Why don't you confer with your co-counsel, Mr. Petrocelli. That is not a proper objection. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, when you arrived, she had, obviously, if she was upstairs locked in her bedroom, had obviously come downstairs and come out front, correct? A. Correct. Q. And when you arrived, Mr. Simpson wasn't out front, was he? A. No. Q. He wasn't in the house, either, was he? A. Wasn't in the main house, no. Q. He was out in the back house with Mr. Kaelin, correct? A. Yes. Q. And after you went through the house, you went back into the back house and talked to O.J. Simpson in the back house, correct? A. Yes. Q. All right. You also did this shutter diplomacy and went to the front house and talked to Nicole, and went to the back house and talked to O.J., and felt the incident had resolved, and left, correct? A. Yes. Q. And -- by the way, did Sergeant -- well, strike that. Did you ever think there was need for backup at that particular location? You can answer yes or no. A. Yes. Q. Mr. Simpson had never made any threats to anyone during the entire time that you were there, correct? A. Verbal threat? You mean threats? Q. To do physical harm to anybody. A. No. Q. And in fact, you had five officers, half the watch there that night, and you had half the watch there because it was O.J. Simpson and a celebrity was involved; isn't that true? A. Partially. Q. And by the way, were you one of the 25 or so officers on June 13 that felt compelled to go to 875 South Bundy to the crime scene because a celebrity was involved? A. No. I wasn't even working West LA. Q. Now -- MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, I'm going to object to that. There's no foundation for that statement; it's not a proper question; it's argument to the jury; and it's improper. THE COURT: The jury is to disregard it. It's not relevant to this inquiry. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, when you arrived at the front of 325 South Gretna Green, could you look in through the living-room window? A. No. Q. Were the drapes closed? A. I don't recall. Q. You don't have any recollection of whether you could see if anybody was doing something in the living room from the front of the house? A. No. Q. Now, what would you define as, please -- You used the word "suspect" when you were being questioned by Mr. Kelly. Would you define that term for me? A. "Suspect," a person who is suspected of committing a crime. Q. And at the time -- that is, when you entered that house, you thought that Mr. Simpson was a suspect; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. Now, in terms of your conversations with O.J. Simpson, Mr. Simpson was upset about the people -- and he informed you of this -- that his wife was running around with, correct? A. Correct. Q. And he was upset about the fact that she was, in fact, in his view and from his information, running -- having people in the house who were hookers, correct? MR. KELLY: Objection. Misstates the evidence and misstates the content of the tape, also. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: He was concerned. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And he was concerned that there was one person that he thought was bad for his kids and that his wife shouldn't associate with, and he didn't want him around the house; isn't that true? A. Yes. Q. And that was a gentleman with the first name of Keith, correct? A. Yes. Q. And he expressed that to you, that in fact, these people that were around the house had some sort of dealings with Heidi Fleiss, correct? A. That's -- MR. KELLY: Objection. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: That's what he indicated. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And he was upset about that, those people being around his house where his kids were; he informed you of that, didn't he? A. Yes. Q. And he also indicated to you, sir, that he never had intended, nor was he ever considering any physical violence to Nicole Brown Simpson that evening, correct? A. Correct. Q. And he also indicated to you that the door that she said was broken, before that, she told you he broke -- it was broken before he ever went to the house; isn't that correct? A. That's what he claimed. MR. BAKER: I don't have anything further. MR. KELLY: No redirect. THE COURT: Thank you. You're excused. Okay. Take ten minutes, ladies and gentlemen. Don't talk about the case. Don't form or express any opinions. (Recess.) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury.) MR. KELLY: Judge, before I call the next witness, I want to move in Exhibit Number 16, which was the October 25, 1993 tape, into evidence; Exhibit 757, which was the Sergeant Lally tape we just listened to; and Exhibit 2195, which was the photograph of the front of 325 Gretna Green Way. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, I object to the Lally tape on the grounds there's no foundation, no chain of custody. It is hearsay. It is not a business records exception. THE COURT: Overruled. Received. (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 16 was received in evidence.) (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 757 was received in evidence.) (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2195 was received in evidence.) MICHAEL STEVENS, called as a witness on behalf of Plaintiffs, was duly sworn and testified as follows: THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? THE WITNESS: I do. THE CLERK: Sir, if you would, please state and spell your name for the record. THE WITNESS: Michael Stevens, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, S-T-E-V-E-N-S DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KELLY: Q. Morning, Mr. Stevens. A. Morning. Q. Are you currently employed? A. Yes. Q. By whom? A. Los Angeles County District Attorney's Office. Q. In what capacity are you employed by them? A. Senior investigator. Q. Okay. Were you employed by them in that same capacity on December 6, 1994? A. Yes, I was. Q. Did you have occasion to go to the Union Bank on San Vicente Boulevard during the course of your duties that day? A. Yes, I did. Q. And what was the purpose of going to that Union Bank at that time, on December 6, 1994? A. To execute a search warrant. Q. And was there some particular object that you were executing the search warrant on? A. Yes. Q. What was that? A. Safe deposit box under the name of Nicole Brown Simpson. Q. Okay. And did you determine whether there were any other key-holders to that particular safety deposit box? A. Yes, I did. Q. Were there any? A. No, there was not. Q. Okay. And did you determine that she was the signatory to a particular box number? A. Yes. Q. And do you recall what that box number was? A. 1313. Q. Okay. And can you tell me what exactly you did, Mr. Stevenson, [sic] in terms of executing that search warrant that day at that bank, on the box, under Nicole Brown Simpson? A. Myself and my partner, we notified the bank manager, in essence, presented her with the search warrant, and then had a locksmith come out -- a county locksmith, by the name of Robert Shapiro, and had those -- had the safe deposit box drilled open. Q. Were you present when the safety deposit box was drilled open? A. Yes, I was. Q. And was subsequently the box removed from the slot it was resting in? A. Yes. Q. Were you -- what was done with that box when it was removed from the -- A. Myself, my partner, and two representatives of the bank took it to a booth just outside the vault there, and -- Q. Were you present, Mr. Stevens when the box was physically opened? A. Yes. I opened it. Q. And did you remove any of the contents from that box? A. Yes, I did. Q. And did you do any sort of bookkeeping or administrative work based on the contents removed from that box? A. Yes, I did. Q. What was that? A. An inventory. Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: If I could just show this -- this will be 2196. MR. BAKER: Let me see that before you put it on the Elmo, please. MR. KELLY: (Mr. Kelly hands document to Mr. Baker.) MR. BAKER: Thank you. (Mr. Baker reviews document.) (The instrument herein referred to as Inventory re: contents of safety deposit box belonging to Nicole Brown Simpson was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2196.) Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Do you recognize that two-page document in front of you, Mr. Stevens? A. Yes, I do. Q. What is that? A. It's an inventory prepared by plaintiff and myself. Q. That was the contents of the box that day? A. Yes. Q. And included in the contents of that box, there were some photographs, were there not? A. Yes, there were. MR. KELLY: Steve, could I see that photograph number 8, please. Oh, I'm sorry. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Do you recognize that photograph, Mr. Stevens? A. Yes, I do. Q. Where do you recognize it from? A. That was taken out of the safety deposit box by myself. THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me; does that have a number? MR. KELLY: 8. And number 9. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of Nicole Brown Simpson recovered from safety deposit box was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 8.) (The instrument herein referred to as Photo of Nicole Brown Simpson with her arm raise; recovered from safety deposit box was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 9.) Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Do you recognize that photograph, Mr. Stevens? A. Yes, I do. Q. I'm sorry; number 9. A. Yes. Q. Do you know where -- do you recognize that photograph from? A. I removed that, also, from out of the safe deposit box. Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: Okay. And we're almost done. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Now, with regard to the various other items removed from there, also, I believe there was an envelope that indicated "only open in the presence of an attorney;" is that correct? A. Yes. Q. And were you present when that envelope was subsequently opened? A. Yes, I was. Q. Okay. And do you recall what the contents of that sealed envelope was when it was opened? A. That was Nicole Brown Simpson's will. MR. KELLY: I have no further questions, Your Honor. THE COURT: Cross. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER: Q. It had -- there was a newspaper clipping in there, was there not? A. Yes, there was. There were several. Q. About O.J. Simpson -- A. Yes. Q. -- buying some property in Laguna Beach and that sort of thing? A. Different articles. There were -- there was one regarding the incident in January, I believe. Q. And by the way, when did you go over your testimony with Mr. Kelly? A. Yesterday morning, or -- I'm sorry. Yesterday afternoon. Q. And you were on the payroll when that occurred? A. Yes, I was. Q. Okay. MR. BAKER: Nothing further. THE COURT: Your're excused. MR. KELLY: Your Honor, at this time I'd like to move Exhibits 8, 9, and 2196 into evidence. THE COURT: Received. MR. KELLY: Thank you. (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8 was received in evidence.) (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 9 was received in evidence.) (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2196 was received in evidence.) MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, Plaintiffs call Brian Kaelin. BRIAN KAELIN, called as a witness on behalf of the Plaintiffs, was examined and testified as follows: THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? THE WITNESS: I do. THE CLERK: Please be seated. And would you please state and spell your name for the record? THE WITNESS: Brian Kaelin K-A-E-L-I-N, B-R-I-A-N. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q. Morning, Mr. Kaelin. A. Morning. Q. You are also known by Kato? A. Yes. Q. Okay. In October of 1993, October 25 to be specific, you were living with -- you were living at the residence of Nicole Brown Simpson in a guest house? A. Yes. Q. And at that time, were you present during at least part of a verbal argument between Nicole and Mr. Simpson? A. Yes. Q. And the police came? A. Yes. Q. Did there come a time when you had occasion to observe the back door that leads out from her house to the backyard? A. Yes. Q. And was that when the police were wrapping up their work and getting ready to leave? A. Correct. Q. What did you see? A. The door -- the French doors in the back of the Gretna Green house that was broken on top, and there was wood on the floor. Q. What did you do? A. They asked me to, the police, to hammer it shut, the door. So I picked up the wood; I hammered it and put extra nails in for safety. Q. There was actually wood on the floor. You picked it up and you fixed it? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Leading. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, did -- was that door broken from before, by the way? MR. BAKER: Objection. Foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Do you know? A. It was at one time broken. I don't know if it was the same part, but it had a break to it. Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that the damage that you saw was fresh damage on that day? MR. BAKER: Leading. THE COURT: Sustained. THE WITNESS: It was fresh damage. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Let me ask you the question again. MR. BAKER: Move to strike the answer. THE COURT: Stricken. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) The piece that you fixed? A. Yes. Q. Had you seen that piece before that day, on the ground? A. No. Q. Okay. And what did you do with that piece? A. I got on a chair and I hammered it back where it was broken from. Q. Okay. And did you do anything else to the door? A. Yeah. I think there was maybe another piece. I hammered that in there; then I put extra nails on top of the door. Q. Let me now move on. At the end of the year, you -- did you leave Nicole's guest house? A. Yes. Q. Where did you move? A. To Rockingham. Q. The home of Mr. Simpson? A. Yes. Q. And where did you live at Mr. Simpson's house? A. I had a guest house in the back. MR. PETROCELLI: And let me put a board up, Your Honor. (Counsel places board on easel.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) I'd like to ask you some questions about the property, okay? First of all, you moved in when? A. I moved in about January 7. Q. And you were living there still, as of June 12, 1994? A. Correct. Q. Were you close friends with O.J. Simpson? A. No. Q. How would you describe your relationship with him? A. When he was around, I would say hi. Never went out with him socially, and pretty much had his life, I had my life. Q. Okay. Did you have access to his house? A. No. Q. The inside of the house? A. No. Q. Did you have access? A. No. Q. Did you have the alarm code? A. No. Q. Did you guys hang out together? A. No. Q. Did you go out on double dates? A. No. MR. PETROCELLI: This is 116, Your Honor, this board here. (Exhibit 116 displayed on easel.) MR. PETROCELLI: Everybody see? JURORS: (Nod affirmatively.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Kaelin, can you see from there? MR. PETROCELLI: May he step down, Your Honor? THE COURT: (Nods affirmatively.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Where did you live? A. Right here (indicating). Q. In that room. And for you to get to your room from the outside of the property, what did you do? A. I would go through this gate (indicating). Q. Yeah. A. Come in here, go back down the stairs to the room. Q. You had a key to your room? A. Yes. Q. Did that key work any other doors? A. No. Q. So you didn't go through the front of the house -- A. Uh-uh. Q. -- to get inside your room? A. No. Q. Okay. And this part is the main residence. Is that where Mr. Simpson lived? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Did the -- on the weekend of June 11 and June 10 -- June 11 and June 12, excuse me -- did Mr. Simpson have a dog on the property? A. Yes. Q. And what was the name of that dog? A. Chachi. Q. Can you put up the picture of Chachi. (Exhibit 114 displayed). THE COURT REPORTER: Do you know how to spell that? THE WITNESS: C-H-A-C-H-I. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you get close up? This is Exhibit 114. (The instrument herein referred to as a Photograph of Mr. Simpson's dog, Chachi at front gate on Rockingham, was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 114.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Is that Chachi? A. Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you give me a wider shot on that now, Steve, as wide as it will go. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What gate is that? A. That's the Ashford gate. Q. You say that's the gate you usually use to get inside the property? A. Correct. Q. Where did you usually park your car? A. I usually was on Ashford. That's one of my spots. That's my car right there. (Indicating.) Q. Can you point to it. (The witness complies.) MR. PETROCELLI: Let the record reflect the witness is pointing to the area -- I guess that would be -- what direction is that? North, east? Help me out. East? MR. BAKER: It's south. He's pointing south from the Ashford gate, south. MR. PETROCELLI: I'm not too good with directions. To the left of the Ashford gate. MR. BAKER: Oh, left is east. I agree with that. I'm sorry. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) To the left of the Ashford gate, correct? A. Correct. Q. Where did Mr. Simpson usually park his Bronco, if you know? A. Usually on Ashford. Q. Can you point where on Ashford Mr. Simpson usually parked his Bronco? A. I think it would be a wider shot. It would be here or on this side of the street, sometimes there (indicating). Q. And the first place you pointed to was where the mailbox is? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And we're talking about the white Bronco? A. Correct. Q. And that's based on your observations, living there between January 1994 and June 1994, right. MR. BAKER: Leading, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. BAKER: Well -- Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What is the -- MR. BAKER: Wait. Wait. Time out. Could we get this witness directed when an objection is sustained, not to answer, please. THE COURT: If you would just not lead, it would solve everything, Counsel. MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Kaelin, when there's an objection, hold off for a second; let the judge rule, okay? THE WITNESS: (Nods affirmatively.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You gave some testimony about where Mr. Simpson usually parked his Bronco. What was that based on? A. Seeing it usually parked there. Q. And the time that you lived there was when? A. January, June. MR. PETROCELLI: Give me the picture of Kato. The other Kato. (Exhibit 28, Photograph of Nicole Brown Simpson's dog, Kato, was displayed on the TV screen.) (Laughter.) MR. PETROCELLI: This is Exhibit 28. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) By the way, do you recognize the animal? A. Yes. Q. What is the name of the animal? A. Kato. Q. Do you know who it was named after? A. Me. Q. Do you know why that is? A. The kids were thinking of names to call it and then they said "Kato." Q. And was Kato, the dog, on the Simpson property on June 11 and June 12? A. No. Q. So how many dogs were on the property during those two days? A. Chachi only. Q. Now, could you describe the physical condition of Chachi? A. I think Chachi had arthritis in the leg; it was always hobbling, kind of arthritic. MR. BAKER: I move to strike on the basis of no veterinary foundation. (Laughter.) THE COURT: Overruled. Lay opinion as to a dog's condition is common. (Laughter.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Based on your observations of Chachi, was he an old dog or younger dog? A. Older dog. Q. Did he move quickly, slowly? A. Slowly. Q. And did you ever make any observations about what Chachi would do if the Ashford gates or the Rockingham gates opened up? A. Chachi usually stayed in one spot on the grass. Q. Did you see Chachi run out of the gate, either gate, when the gates were open? A. No. Q. Did you ever see Mr. Simpson walk Chachi? A. No. Q. Did you ever see Mr. Simpson take Chachi outside the property? A. No. Q. You ever been inside the garage of Mr. Simpson? A. Yes. Q. Okay. What did it look like? A. Cluttered. Q. With what? A. It had weights, a car, lot of boxes, I think televisions. MR. PETROCELLI: Give me 188, Steve. (Mr. Foster displays photograph on TV screen.) (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of inside of Mr. Simpson's garage was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 188.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) How many times were you in that garage? A. Maybe two, three, or four times. Q. I show you Exhibit 188. Does that appear to be the condition of the garage at the time you saw it? A. Yes. Q. Prior to June 12, 1994, did you know whether there was a door in that garage that led outside? A. No. Q. Had you ever used that door? A. No. Q. Had you ever seen anyone use that door? A. No. Q. Let's turn to the weekend of June 11 and June 12. On June 11, did you have occasion to spend any time with Mr. Simpson? A. Yes, I did. Q. When was that? A. It was in the afternoon, on June 11. Q. What were the two of you doing? A. Watching TV. Q. And did anything come up in the conversation that you recall now? A. Yes. There was a movie on, "The World According to Garp," and there was a part that was coming up in the film that he wanted me to see. And it was a -- You want me to go on? Q. Please. MR. BAKER: I'd like a question, Your Honor, instead of a narrative response. THE COURT: Ask a question. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Please relate the conversation between Mr. Simpson and you regarding the Garp movie. A. He wanted me to see this part that was coming up in the film with -- MR. BAKER: Move to strike as nonresponsive. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You may answer. A. And there's a part in the film where the wife was going to give oral sex in the car, and he wanted me to see that part. An he compared it to seeing oral sex -- Nicole giving oral sex at the Gretna Green house. Q. What did Mr. Simpson say, as best you can recall, when he pointed out the oral sex scene to you on television? A. That he was outside Gretna Green and saw Nicole doing it to a gentleman named Keith. Q. And did he tell you when he had seen this? A. I don't remember the date. Q. Did Mr. Simpson say anything to you that day about Nicole Brown Simpson, other than what you just said? A. There was talk of having a white picket fence -- a white picket fence and having the kids around; that he liked the sound of having children around. Q. Did he say anything else that you can recall? A. He was getting ready for a dinner, a black-tie dinner, and he was feeling like he didn't really want to go. Q. And did he indicate who was going? A. He -- MR. BAKER: Your Honor, I'm going to object to this witness testifying as to what Mr. Simpson was allegedly feeling. He can certainly testify as to what he said, but I don't think he has any more psychological background than he does veterinary background. THE COURT: Sustained. You may inquire as to what he said. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What we're interested in is what Mr. Simpson said and did. A. He said he didn't feel like going to this dinner. Q. Did he say why? A. He just didn't want to go. I think he was just tired. MR. BAKER: I object to him saying what he thinks. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did he say he was tired? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Move to strike what he thinks. THE COURT: You may inquire whether those were his words. If those were his words, the objection is overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Were those his words? A. Yes. Q. Did he say to you who he was going to the dinner with? A. Yes, he did. Q. What did he say? A. That he was going to the dinner with Paula Barbieri. Q. And that was the extent of your conversation with him on that day? A. Pretty much, yes. Q. Did you see Mr. Simpson the next day -- A. Yes, I did. Q. -- Sunday, June 12? A. Yes. Q. When did you see him on that day for the first time? A. It was in the afternoon, approximately at 2 o'clock or ... Q. And where were you with Mr. Simpson at that time? A. In the kitchen nook area to the house. Q. And who was there? A. I -- just myself. Q. And him? A. Yes. Q. And did you have any conversation with him at that time? A. Yes, I did. Q. And can you recall what was said? A. Once he got in -- he longed for a white picket fence, to have the family. Q. Is that what Mr. Simpson said? A. That's what Mr. Simpson said. Q. Okay. What else did Mr. Simpson say? A. Well, he was on the phone at this time, to a Traci Adell, and was telling her that -- Q. Who is Traci Adell? A. Traci Adell was a friend of mine that he was talking to on the phone. Q. How did he get her number? A. Through -- he left a number for her by getting the number from me, and she called back. Q. So, someone that you introduced him to? A. On the phone, yes. Q. And after the Traci Adell conversation, did Mr. Simpson say anything else to you that afternoon? A. Yes. Q. What did he say? A. There was talk of the IRS, and he was mentioning how he was going to do something with the IRS, with changing Nicole's address, and somehow that would cause some sort of financial damage to her. Q. And is that what he said? A. Yes. Q. Did he say anything else to you about Nicole in that afternoon conversation, if you can recall? A. I don't think so. Q. Did he say anything to you in that conversation about Paula Barbieri? A. Yes. Q. What did he say? MR. BAKER: Relevancy, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did he say anything to you about a discussion with Paula Barbieri and the recital that Mr. Simpson was going to attend? MR. BAKER: Objection. Relevance. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You may answer. A. Yeah. O.J. had said that he didn't want Paula to go to the recital. And he was mentioning that Paula probably wanted to get married and have kids, and he was fine, because he had enough kids now and he didn't want anymore kids. And he wasn't sure that she was the one for him to settle down with. Q. Did Mr. Simpson tell you why he did not want Paula to go to the recital? MR. BAKER: Objection. Relevancy. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Mr. Simpson had said that what he wanted to do was -- he thought it would be a family thing and he didn't want Paula to be there. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, did you go someplace when that conversation ended? A. Yes. Q. And what did you do? A. I played basketball. Q. And at some point in time, you got back in from basketball. Do you recall when that was? A. I think it was about 6:30 or 7:00, approximately. Q. You got back from basketball, what did you do when you returned from basketball? A. I went back into the nook area. He called me in. Q. You entered the property, right? A. Correct. Q. Just so we understand what you mean about the nook area, we're referring to 1126. You entered the Ashford gate? A. Yes. Q. And you're starting to walk there? A. I'm starting to walk right in front there. And I think he said "Kato." Q. And Mr. Simpson is where, right here? A. Should I go down there? Q. Sure. A. The nook area would be here (indicating). Q. Okay. You're pointing to this little area that juts out from the main residence, and he then called you into the nook area? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And when you went inside and spoke to him, was this before or after he had come back from the recital? A. This was after the recital. Q. And what, if anything, did Mr. Simpson say to you about the recital that he had just attended? A. O.J. had said that he was wondering what it would be like for these women to be wearing their outfits when they're grandmas, he had said. Q. Did he indicate which women he was referring to? A. Nicole. Q. What did he say about that? A. What is she going to do when she's a grandma? Q. Referring to? A. Her outfit. Q. What did -- describe the outfit. A. Miniskirt. Q. And what else did Mr. Simpson say to you about the recital, if anything? A. He said that Nicole was playing hardball with him because he wanted to see his daughter, Sydney, and she wasn't -- Q. I'm sorry? A. -- allowing him to. Q. Mr. Simpson indicated to you what in regard to Sydney and Nicole? A. He regarded that he wanted to see his daughter and Nicole was playing hardball, because she wouldn't let him see her after the recital. Q. And did he say anything else to you about the recital that you can remember? A. No. Q. By the way, what was Mr. Simpson wearing at the time of that conversation, at about 6:30, 7 o'clock? A. I thought it was a sharp-looking sweatsuit, dark, white zipper. Q. What do you mean by a sweatsuit? A. Like a jogging outfit. Q. When that conversation ended, what did you do? A. I'd asked if it was okay for me to take a jacuzzi. Q. What did he say? A. Yes. Q. And then what happened? A. I took a jacuzzi. Q. And after you finished your jacuzzi, what did you do? A. I finished the jacuzzi; I went back into my room, and then he came to my door and told me that I forgot to turn the jacuzzi jets off. Q. Okay. You're in your room now? A. I'm in my room. MR. PETROCELLI: Can we have Exhibit -- Steve -- yeah, give us 143, the inside of Mr. Kaelin's room. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of Mr. Kaelin's room at Rockingham was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 143.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, is that your room -- was that your room, I should say? A. Yes. Q. And this (indicating), is that a door there? A. Yes, it's a door. Q. And is that door -- Now I'm going to go to 116. Does that door point out into the yard here? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And this is a wall behind your bed? A. Yes. Q. And that's a wall that is along this south pathway where this air conditioner is located? A. Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Can we have another shot of that room, Steve. (Mr. Foster complies.) THE REPORTER: Excuse me; what exhibit is that? MR. PETROCELLI: 194. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of Mr. Kaelin's room at Rockingham was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 194.) Q. That's another picture of your room? That's the bed you slept in? A. Um-hum. Yes. Q. There is a picture on the wall. Is that the same wall where the air conditioner was located? A. The back wall, yes. Q. And the air conditioner is on the other side of the bed? A. (Nods affirmatively.) Q. Is that correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. So you're in your room and Mr. Simpson came to your room. And what did he say? A. He had told me that I forgot to turn the jacuzzi jets off. I apologized. Q. And you remember what he was wearing at that time? A. It was the same outfit I'd seen before, the dark sweats. Q. Was it common, by the way, for Mr. Simpson to come to your room? A. No. MR. BAKER: Object, your Honor. There's no foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Was that -- was that the first time he had been to your room? A. I think maybe once before. Q. After you apologized, what happened next? A. He had left, and it seemed like he came back again, a short time later. Q. And when Mr. Simpson returned a short time later, what were you doing? A. I was on the phone. Q. And who were you talking to? A. To Tom O'Brien. Q. Where did O'Brien live at the time you were talking to him? A. In San Diego. Q. And what happened when Mr. Simpson came to your room this second time this evening? A. He asked to borrow some money. Q. You were on the phone? A. I was on -- on the phone. Q. What did he do? He knocked on the door? A. He shouted my name. I didn't get off the phone; I put it down on the bed; and I said, "What's up?" And he said, I have an embarrassing question; I've got to ask you for some money because all I have is hundreds. Q. Did he say to you why he needed the money? A. For a sky cap to tip him, I believe. Q. And what did you say? A. I said sure. I gave him a twenty. Q. And then what happened? A. Well, then he said he was going to get something to eat, and I invited myself to come along, and -- Q. How did you do that? A. I said, hey, I'm kind of hungry; can I go? Q. Let me back up for a second. After you gave him the 20-dollar bill, what did he say next to you? MR. BAKER: Asked and answered. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: That he -- Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You said something about going to dinner, if you can recall? A. Yeah. He had said that he was going to get something to eat. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, I object to that leading of Mr. Petrocelli. He can ask a question without saying -- MR. PETROCELLI: I was trying to bring him back to the same point of reference. MR. BAKER: Then going to dinner. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You understand where we are in the testimony? I'm trying to get you to tell the jury, as best as you can recall, what Mr. Simpson said to you after you gave him the 20-dollar bill? A. Okay. I was -- he had mentioned that he was going to get something to eat. Q. Is that what he said? A. Yes. Q. I'm going to get something to eat? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And what did you then say? A. I wanted to come along, and I asked if it was okay for me to go. Q. Is that what you said? A. Yes. Can I go? I was on the phone. I told Tom, my friend, hey, I'll call you back. Q. And then what did Mr. Simpson say when you said, "Can I go?" A. There was a pause. MR. BAKER: Move to strike as nonresponsive, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You may answer. A. There was a pause, and I felt as if I wasn't supposed to invite myself. MR. BAKER: Move to strike as nonresponsive. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. BAKER: Can he answer the question? THE COURT: Spit it out. THE WITNESS: So I invited myself. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What did Mr. Simpson say after you said -- A. It was quite a pause. Then he said to me, yeah, you can come along. Q. Okay. And you, in terms of your state of mind when he said that, after the pause, what did you feel? A. That I invited myself. MR. BAKER: I object. It's irrelevant. THE COURT: The answer may remain. Let's move it along. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, when you -- when Mr. Simpson came down to see you, did you look at the watch or the clock to see what time it was? A. No. MR. PETROCELLI: Let me show you the next exhibit in order, exhibit -- the next exhibit -- I should say Exhibit C-189. (The instrument herein referred to as Blow up entitled calls made by Brian Kaelin June 12, 1994 was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 189.) Q. We showed you your phone records. From that phone record, can you tell us what time Mr. Simpson came to your room and asked you for the money -- A. Yes. Q. -- and then went off to dinner? This is 189. There's an entry on June 12 at 2103, which is 9:03, to San Diego for 8 minutes. Is that the call? A. Yes, it is. Q. That's to whom? A. To Tom O'Brien. Q. So at the end of that call, would have been 9:11 p.m.? A. Yes. Q. And is that the time that you think you left with Mr. Simpson? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And when you hung up the phone with Mr. Simpson -- with Mr. O'Brien, excuse me -- you then proceeded with Mr. Simpson to go where? A. Through the house. Q. Yeah? A. To the nook area. Q. Yeah? A. And into the Bentley. Q. Now, during this entire period of time, from the moment you invited yourself to dinner, to the time you got in the car, the Bentley, did Mr. Simpson ask you where you wanted to go for dinner? A. No. Q. Did Mr. Simpson say anything to you about what dress you should wear or he should wear for dinner? A. No. Q. Did you say anything to Mr. Simpson about where you should go for dinner? A. No. Q. Was there any conversation at all about where you were going to dinner? A. No. Q. When you got in the Bentley, did you know where you were going to dinner? A. No. MR. BAKER: Objection. Relevance, Your Honor. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, what happened when you got into the Bentley? A. I got into the passenger side and we took off. Q. Okay. And what gate did you leave out of? A. It would be the Rockingham gate. Q. Okay. And you -- when -- you know how Mr. Simpson opened the Rockingham gate, from inside his Bentley? A. I think there was a button he presses. Q. And the gates automatically open? A. Yes. Q. Did Mr. Simpson do anything unusual when he got to the Rockingham gate before he left? A. No. Q. Did he stop and wait for the gates to close before he took off? A. No. Q. Did he say anything to you about looking for Chachi? MR. BAKER: Objection. Leading and suggestive. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: No. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Okay. Where did you and Mr. Simpson drive? A. We drove to McDonald's. Q. Okay. At any point during the ride to McDonald's, did Mr. Simpson say to you where you were going? A. No. Q. So you didn't know? A. I did not know. Q. At some point in time, he pulled into a McDonald's? A. Correct. Q. And what happened then? A. Went to the drive-through and he ordered the food. Q. Okay. Happen to remember what he ordered? A. I think it was a large hamburger. MR. BAKER: Relevance. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Large one, I think fries, and a drink. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And you ordered? A. A grilled McChicken and French fries and an orange drink. Q. And who paid? A. I paid. Q. And did -- do you know if Mr. Simpson -- how he -- you paid by giving up the money to Mr. Simpson? A. Correct. Q. Was there any change coming back? A. Yes, there was. Q. Who handed it back to you? A. He did. Q. Do you know whether Mr. Simpson got any change for the airport, for the sky cap? A. No. Q. After the food was ordered, then what happened? A. Then we drove right back. He ate his food and drove right back to the house. Q. Mr. Simpson ate his food in the car? A. Yes. Q. Did you eat your food in the car? A. No. Q. What were you doing with your food? A. It was in my lap. Q. Was there a lot of conversation in the car? A. No. Q. Now, what happened when you returned to Rockingham? A. Okay. We got -- I got out of the car. Q. First of all, do you remember which gate you used to get back on to the property? A. I'm pretty sure it was the Ashford gate. So I got out of the car and had my food and I started to walk towards the nook area and I looked behind and he wasn't next to me, and then I said, well, I'll go to my room. Q. When you got out of the car and -- with your food and started walking to the nook area, why were you doing that? A. Because I thought -- we had gone to get the dinner together -- that I was going to eat it there too, you know, eat it with him. Q. Okay. Did you assume that he was going into the kitchen with you? A. I assumed -- MR. BAKER: Irrelevant, and his state of mind is immaterial. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) When you -- as you approached the kitchen nook door -- is there a door there? A. Yes. Q. -- what did you see Mr. Simpson doing? A. He was at the front door of the Bentley, just standing there. Q. Okay. Was he walking? A. No. Q. Was he bending down? A. No. Q. Was he scooping out lettuce from the driver's side of his car? A. No. Q. Was he doing anything to indicate that he was cleaning or picking things up? A. No. Q. What did you say to him? A. I looked, and I said I'll go to my room. Q. Okay. And when you got to your room, what did you do? A. I think I got the food and I called Tom back. Q. And from your cell phone records, again -- MR. PETROCELLI: What exhibit number is that, 189? A. It was a regular phone. Q. I'm sorry. From your telephone records, Exhibit 189, there's an entry at 9:37 to San Diego, 7 minute phone call. A. (Nods affirmatively.) Q. Is that the time that you made a phone call, when you got back from McDonald's? A. Yes, it is. Q. Using that as a point of reference, 9:37, what time did you get back to your room following the trip to McDonald's with Mr. Simpson? A. I got back to the room probably right at 9:37, possibly, called Tom immediately. Q. Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to put up 116 again, the diagram of Rockingham. (Exhibit 116 displayed.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And if you would, with the Court's permission, walk over here and point to where the -- Mr. Simpson's Bentley was parked when you returned from Rockingham? A. Right here. Q. In that little alcove there? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Can we put an X. MR. PETROCELLI: Indicating this alcove. MR. BAKER: I understand he's indicating. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think we need an X. THE COURT: It's his exhibit. You want an overlay; do your overlay. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Where's the door, by looking at Exhibit 116, to the kitchen nook that you were heading towards? A. (Indicating.) Q. At what point in the path from the Bentley to the kitchen nook did you decide to go back to your room? A. Right here. Q. Okay. And at what point in your trip from the Bentley to the kitchen did you turn around and see Mr. Simpson, where were you? A. I was about here (indicating). Q. And where was he? A. Still right here, at the car (indicating). Q. Okay. Now, after you went back to your room, what did you do? A. From McDonald's? Q. Yeah. A. I called Tom up. Q. And after you got off the phone call with Tom, what did you do? A. I was going to type up resumes. I -- there was a typewriter in the office area, so I plugged it in two outlets and I tried to plug it in everywhere and it wasn't working. After I sort of gave up on it, I called up Rachel. Q. And who is Rachel? A. She was a friend of mine. Q. And she's a local call? A. Yes. Q. And you spoke to Rachel on the telephone? A. I did. Q. What else did you do? A. Well, the time I was talking to her I was kind of -- had the phone in the bed. I said, Rachel, I'm plugging in this typewriter, it's not working here. I was explaining to her that the outlets weren't working. And I stayed on the phone with her for awhile. Q. And during the time that you were in the room -- you were in your room, right? A. Correct. Q. Did you ever leave the property during this time you're describing? A. Yes, I did. Q. Okay. You left the property when something happened later on, right? A. Correct. Q. Before we get to that, during the time that you're in your room talking to Rachel about a typewriter, did you leave the room at all? A. No. Q. Did you see Mr. Simpson at all? A. No. Q. Did you hear him? A. No. Q. Okay. Were you looking at the clock and watch at all? A. No. Q. Then what happened? A. Then I heard these three noises that were thumps, three loud thumps, and my picture moved in the... MR. PETROCELLI: Can we have the photo of his room with the picture. This is 143 on the television monitor. Give me 194, Steve. (Exhibit 194 displayed.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) When the noises occurred, did you look at a watch or a clock? A. No. Q. And you said a picture moved. Can you point to Exhibit 194 and tell us what picture you're referring to? A. This picture. It just moved after I heard the thumps, the picture moved that way. Q. It tilted a little bit? A. It tilted. Q. How do you know that it moved? A. I saw it. Q. Now, where were you at the precise time that you heard these noises? A. Leaning up against this bed, like that, talking on the phone (indicating). Q. Talking on the phone? A. (Witness nods.) Q. So your back was against the head board? A. Yes. Q. And you said you heard these noises. What did they sound like? A. Like someone falling back behind my bedroom wall. Q. And what makes you say that? A. Because that's what it sounded like to me after -- Q. You previously testified about the rhythm and volume of these noises. Do you remember that? A. Yes. Q. By hitting the witness stand. Can you demonstrate that to the jury, the rhythm and the volume of the noises. A. (Witness pounds witness stand three times.) Q. And did you feel anything against your back? A. Yes. Q. What did you feel? A. Vibration. Q. Okay. What did you then do? A. Well, I talked to Rachel on the phone, I said, Rachel, did we just have an earthquake? Q. Why did you say that? A. I kind of wanted to believe that it was an earthquake because the picture moved. And she said no. Q. Why did you want to believe it was an earthquake? A. Because I didn't want to believe there was someone back there. Q. And what did Rachel then say? A. She said no. Q. What did you then do? A. I explained to her what had happened, the picture moved, and I said I should probably check on this. Q. What did you do? A. I got off the phone with her and then -- I have a flashlight, pen light, in the drawer, and I went to check on the noise. Q. About how long of a period of time were you on the telephone with Rachel from the time you heard these noises until the time you got off? A. About two to three minutes. Q. And at two to three minutes, what was said? A. To Rachel? Q. Yes, and you. A. I was saying to her that this noise -- that it first was an earthquake, and I was trying to convince myself that -- not to be scared. I told her, well, I'm going to check on this noise. If you don't hear from me in ten minutes, be worried. In a joking manner. And she was saying why don't you come over here, that type -- Q. She said why don't you come over here? A. Yes. Q. What did you say? A. I said no, I better check on this. Q. Was there anything else said? A. No. Q. Is that all that was said in the time from when you heard the noises until you got off? A. I believe so, yes. MR. BAKER: Leading and suggestive, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Can you recall anything else that was said other than what you have testified to thus far? A. No. Q. From the time you heard the noises until the time you got off? A. No, I think that was it. Q. Okay. Now, when you got off the phone, did you look at a watch or a clock? A. No. Q. Okay. Why don't you then describe again what you did when you got off the phone? A. I went out through the -- my door. Q. First you did what? A. I opened the drawer. Q. Yes. A. And I had a flashlight. Q. Now, there's a dresser right next to your bed here, underneath the picture. Is that the dresser that had the drawer that you opened? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And you got -- what kind of flashlight did you get? A. Like about the size of this pen (indicating to magic marker). Or marker. Q. Okay. A. And I went outside and I went to the path to the front of the house and I followed that around. Q. Now, could you go over to Exhibit 116, and it might be helpful if you use this pointer, and could you trace for the jury the route that you took when you left your house upon hearing -- left your room upon hearing the noises? A. I went out my door, through to these stairs, followed this to that path and I took this path all the way there. Q. Okay. Why don't you stop there for a moment. At what pace were you walking? A. Brisk. Q. From the moment you grabbed the flashlight or pen light or whatever it was, till the time that you started walking out, did you do anything in between? A. No. Q. And did you walk directly to the area that you just traced? A. Yes. Q. And approximately how long did that take from -- let me clarify the question. How long did it take from when you got off the phone with Rachel until the time that you arrived around this point right here (indicating to Exhibit)? A. About 30 to 40 seconds. Q. Now, when you arrived at that point, and for the record, I was pointing to where the pathway intersects the driveway, did you see anything? A. Yes, there was the limousine at the gate. Q. You saw a limousine at the gate? A. Yes, I did. Q. Where was the limousine parked, if you could be a little more precise? A. Here's the gate, and the car was pulled all the way up to the gate. Q. When you passed that limousine or walked by that limousine, did you stop? A. No. Q. Did you wave? A. No. Q. Did you do anything in regard to the limousine? A. No. Q. What did you do? A. I went back, followed this -- the driveway, and I went behind by the garage area, where I -- there's a little gate here that's off the hinge, I picked it up and I moved to the side and I walked down just a bit of the way with the pen light and tried to look. Q. And what was your purpose in going where you just described? A. Well, I heard it back here and I thought that's the way I have to go to see if -- where the noise is coming from. Q. Okay. I'd like you to assume that based upon cell phone records and other evidence in the case, that the limousine driver saw you -- MR. BAKER: I'm going to object to this, Your Honor. MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me, your honor, I haven't finished my question. MR. BAKER: I understand that. But there's no -- this is leading, suggestive, and hypothetical. MR. PETROCELLI: It is not leading. THE COURT: Sustained. I'll sustain it. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Okay. Do you have an estimate of the time that you heard these noises? A. In between the 10:40 to 10:50 hour. Q. Okay. Now, is that -- what do you base that on? A. The phone calls. Q. All right. Did you at any time -- A. I didn't, I never looked at a clock. Q. I can't hear you. A. I didn't look at a clock. Q. At any time? A. No. Q. Now, when you walked past that limo driver, after hearing the noises, was that the first time that evening that you walked past a limo driver on the property? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Why don't you complete what you were telling us. You walked behind that garage, correct? A. Correct. Q. And what did you do? MR. BAKER: I object to a narrative. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I walked a few steps, five feet, and I shined the light, and the light was -- it's somewhat dim, and I went back out that same path. I put the gate back up. Q. Well, how far did you get down? A. Maybe here. Q. Okay. Why did you stop? A. Scared. Q. And why were you scared? A. Because I had a little pen light and that's it. Q. Was it dark? A. Yes. Q. Could you see in front of you? A. Not really. Q. When you turned around, what did you then do? A. All right. So I went back up this way and I put the gate back up and I noticed the limo still was outside and I thought maybe I should let this limo driver in. Q. Okay. Why don't you -- before you get to the limo driver, let me ask you a couple of other questions. When you did your first route around the back of the house to the front of the house, were -- were you able to observe the main residence? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Did you notice if there were any lights on in the downstairs part of the main residence in the back when you were walking around? A. I thought maybe the bedroom lights might have been on. Q. Now, the bedroom is not -- is the bedroom downstairs or upstairs? A. It's upstairs. Q. Whose bedroom? A. O.J.'s. Q. So what are you saying, that you thought you saw what upstairs? A. I thought maybe the lights were -- in the upstairs were on, possibly. Q. Could you tell if his television was on? A. Yes. Q. Could you tell -- A. No, it wasn't on. Q. Could you tell if it had been on? A. No. I think I'm confusing the question. I'm sorry. Q. Let me ask you this: Had you ever seen from your vantage point in the back of the house, in the backyard, up into Mr. Simpson's bedroom, could you ever tell if he were watching television? A. Yeah, I could see a reflection. Q. You could see what? A. A reflection that I could tell if the TV was on. Q. At night? A. Yes. Q. Okay. What do you mean by reflection? A. The screen of the TV will reflect off the window. Q. And -- A. His bedroom window. Q. His bedroom window? A. Yes. Q. When you made this route around the house after you heard the noises, did you see anything from Mr. Simpson's bedroom to indicate that the television was on? MR. BAKER: Objection, no foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Did not see. Q. Okay. And please state again whether or not you saw lights on or off in the bottom part of the house? A. I believe they were off. Q. Okay. Now, when you walked around the house the first time and you walked past this point here, did you notice whether lights were on or off in this part of the house, the front part that faces the driveway? A. I believe it was dark. Q. Okay. After you came back from your trip from behind the garage, or your partial trip I should say, you said you saw the limo driver was out there? A. I saw the limo was back there. Q. Was the car in a different or the same place than when you saw it the first time? A. Same place. Q. What did you do? A. I went to this gate control box. Q. Yes. A. And I opened it up, I pressed the button, and the gates opened. Q. What gates opened? A. The Ashford Street gate. So the limo could get in. Q. And what happened? A. And the driver drove up. And the dog was here, Chachi, and I waited for Chachi to get across because Chachi started to go in front of the car and went back into the grass area, and the driver came up. Q. Now, when you let the limo driver in by pressing that button, as of that time had you had any conversation with him at all? A. No. Q. Had you even seen him? A. No. Q. So you did this on your own? A. Yes. Q. And why did you do so? A. I was wondering why he was out there. Q. Had you ever done that before? A. No. THE COURT: Want to take a recess of 10 minutes? MR. PETROCELLI: Yes, Your Honor, it's a good time. THE COURT: Witness is ordered not to speak to the media. THE BAILIFF: Media folks, stand by -- THE COURT: You're ordered not to interfere with the trial process by attempting to interview the witness during the recess. THE BAILIFF: All media out in the hallway to the right side. Do not approach any of the -- approach where the witnesses are standing for the recess. (Break.) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Let me back up a second. When you heard the noises against the wall -- MR. BAKER: I'm going to object to this exhibit because there's some inaccuracy on that exhibit. MR. PETROCELLI: I'm only using it for the location of the rooms, Mr. Baker, not the -- MR. BAKER: Everybody can see everything. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think -- MR. BAKER: The first floor protection plan is inaccurate. MR. PETROCELLI: It was used in the other case. MR. BAKER: That doesn't make it any more accurate. MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to be using it to refer to locations of particular rooms, okay? THE COURT: You may. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you, Your Honor. By the way, that number is Exhibit 199, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: Thank you. (The instrument herein described as a diagram entitled "360 North Rockingham Avenue," with a legend at the bottom, was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 199.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Was this the first time you had ever heard noises against the room of your wall (sic)? A. Yes. Q. Was this the first time you had ever gone to investigate sounds behind your wall? A. Yes. Q. Now, when you were walking around from the back -- I want to make sure we understand your testimony -- I asked you if you saw any lights on in the downstairs of the house. You remember those questions? A. Yes, I do. Q. Okay. So when you left your room -- and I'm referring to this exhibit. MR. FOSTER: 199. MR. PETROCELLI: 199. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) To be more specific, did you see any lights in the family room? A. No, I don't believe I did. Q. If lights were on in the family room, would you have seen them? A. Yes. Q. Did you see any lights in the living room? A. No. Q. If lights were on in the living room, would you have seen them? A. Yes. Q. Now, we come around, and you have this den here. Did you see lights on in the den? A. No. Q. Would you have seen lights if they were on? A. I believe so, yes. Q. And what about in the kitchen breakfast area, see lights on there? A. No. Q. Would you be able to see lights on? A. I believe so, yes. Q. When the limousine driver pulled in, did the dog, Chachi, run out of the gate? A. No. Q. And what happened now, picking up the story, when the limousine driver pulled in, what did you then do? A. Okay, I was making sure that Chachi was safe. He was crossing in front of the limo, then he, Chachi, laid down in the grass, and the limo driver -- limo driver pulled up to the front door entrance. Q. Did he get out? A. Yes. Q. This is the first time you actually saw him? A. Yes, it is. Q. Okay. Continue; what happened next? A. So he got out of the car, and I introduced myself and he introduced himself, and I had some conversation with him about the -- I told him about the noises I had heard. Then I told him that I had this light and I was going to go back there. And I ended up going back there. I also asked him in other parts of the conversation where -- I was asking him if O.J. overslept. Q. Why did you ask the limousine driver if Mr. Simpson had overslept? MR. BAKER: Objection, state of mind is irrelevant. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) What did the limousine driver say in response to that? MR. BAKER: Hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. THE WITNESS: I don't remember offhand. MR. PETROCELLI: Objection has been sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) After you had some conversation with the limousine driver, you said you went to look again behind the garage? A. Yes, I did. Q. Now, up to that point in time, had you seen Mr. Simpson since the Bentley? A. I don't believe so, no. Q. Since your trip to McDonald's? A. Correct. Q. And what did you then do when you went behind the house again? Let me put up the exhibit. (Exhibit 116 displayed.) Q. You can tell us, though. A. This is my second trip. What I did is I went a little further this time. Q. And why? A. I felt a little safer. The limo driver was there. I also had said to Chachi, come on, Chachi, come with me, and he just laid there. I just said to the limo driver, I said great watch dog, huh, and I think he laughed. Then I went back there. Q. Why did you want Chachi to come with you? A. You know, a dog, if there's a prowler, it would frighten him I believe. I thought it was safer to have a dog. Q. You ended up going alone? A. Yes. Q. With the same light? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And can you -- by going to Exhibit 116, can you point out to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how far you went? (Exhibit 116 displayed.) A. This time I went down the pathway, I moved the gate again and I picked it up, put it down. There's another gate there, here, about here, and I went about three to five feet in front of it, the gate. Q. And where on Exhibit 116 did you hear the noises? A. Down here. Q. And as far as you went was where? A. Right about here. Q. And you're pointing to the end of the garage? A. Correct. Q. Okay. Now, on your return trip, the second time, what did you do? You turned around and did what? A. Turned around and I put back that gate. Q. Yeah? A. And I went to the limo driver. Q. Okay. And when you went back to the limo driver, what was he doing? A. I don't remember. Q. Did you see anything at all on your way back from the back of the garage? A. I believe I saw O.J. Q. Okay? A. And he was outside -- I don't know if he was coming in from the door or not but he was just outside. Q. And do you know what he was doing? A. No. Q. Did you notice any luggage anywhere? A. Yes, there was a golf bag right here at this doorway. Q. Yeah? A. And on my second trip I noticed there was a duffel bag right here. Q. You're pointing to . . . A. Where the Bentley would be -- in the back of the Bentley. Q. Back of the Bentley. And you noticed that bag when? A. On my second trip. Q. When you say on your second -- A. Second trip. Q. To or from the back of the house? A. This is coming back from the house. Q. The second time? A. Correct. Q. Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you put on the next picture, Steve. What exhibit number is that, 2197? (The instrument herein described as a Photograph of the Bentley automobile belonging to O.J. Simpson was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2197.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) This is a photograph taken later on. Do you recognize what's in the photo? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's the Bentley. Q. I'm not sure if you can tell from this photo, let us know if you can, point out to the jury the area where you saw this bag. A. The bag would have been under this taillight, about here. (Indicating to exhibit.) Q. And, if you could, sort of transpose that onto Exhibit 116. And I know these things may not be to scale, just do your best. A. Right. If it would be parked right here, it would be out on this side here, the bag. Q. So you're pointing to the area above the A in driveway? A. Yes. (Indicating to Exhibit 116.) A. In back of the Bentley where it would be parked, correct. Q. Had you ever seen that bag before? A. Never. Q. When you saw the bag, did you go up to it? A. At one point I was going towards it. Q. On your trip back from the garage? A. No, I just walked right by it. Q. You just observed it? A. Yes. Q. Did you do anything to it? A. No. Q. When you saw Mr. Simpson, did you have any conversation with him, did he -- you can answer yes or no. A. Yes. Q. What did he say and what did you say? A. I had told him about the noises I had heard. Q. Tell me what you said? A. I said, hey, you know, I heard these noises behind my room, I thought it was an earthquake but it wasn't an earthquake, my picture moved, I think something was back there. Q. And what did he say? A. At one point he had said well, I'll go one way, you go one way to check on the noise. Q. Okay. A. I had said, I've got this lousy flashlight here and it could only go so far. And the limo driver had already checked 'cause I asked him in a previous conversation, and he didn't have one, but he kept looking in his glove box, I believe, for a better flashlight, the limo driver, and we didn't find one. Q. Then in this conversation with Mr. Simpson you said something to him about a flashlight? A. Correct. Q. What did you say and what did he say? A. I said, this is the only flashlight I have, I hope we have a better one, if we have a better one and he said he'd go and check if there was a better flashlight in the house. Q. And then what happened? A. Well, at one point he was motioning to which side he was going to go and cover and which side I would go around, and then I mentioned again that this is a lousy flashlight, so that he went into the house to check -- to find -- Q. Did you go with him? A. Yes. Q. And tell me what happened once you were inside the house? A. Once I'm inside the house, there's an opening to the kitchen, and I would stand right here, and he'd be in the kitchen there. MR. PETROCELLI: Watch out. (Indicating to Mr. Kaelin's use of the pointer in the path of the jury box.) THE WITNESS: Lawsuit. Q. You might want to step back. A. So I -- and I walked into the kitchen area so I could see him in the kitchen, and then he went and he looked at the clock and said, it's that late, I got to go. Q. Did you get into the kitchen? A. I was at the doorway of the kitchen. I could see into the kitchen. Q. Let me get this straight. You followed him into the house? A. Into the house. Q. And then he went into the kitchen? A. Correct. Q. And you got to the threshold? A. Yes. Q. And what did you see him do inside the kitchen? A. Kind of hurried, and walked -- and he looked up at the clock and said, oh, my God, it's that time, I got to go. Q. And then what happened? A. Then he came outside to the foyer area. Q. And what happened? A. And then he was getting ready to leave. Q. Did the two of you then leave the house? A. Well, we were in the -- by the doorway. Q. Inside or outside? A. Inside, yes. Q. Did you walk out? A. Yes. Q. From the time he said, oh, I got to go, did you -- did you then immediately go out with him? A. No, because he had mentioned to me in the foyer to set the alarm. Q. Oh? Tell us about that. A. So I was still sort of in the foyer area, and he said, well, set the alarm. I said, I don't know the alarm code. I said, you do. And that was the last -- Q. Had he ever asked you to set the alarm before? A. No. Q. Did you ever have anything to do with the alarm? A. No. Q. After he asked you to set the alarm and you said you didn't know how, what happened then? A. Well, I assume that he was setting the alarm, and I started to walk and I saw that the duffel bag was still there. Q. You're now outside the house? A. Now I'm outside the house. Q. Is he outside the house? A. Yes. Q. Let me stop you right there. When Mr. Simpson was in the kitchen and you were at the threshold of the kitchen, did you see him bleed? A. No. Q. Did you see him dab blood onto a paper towel or tissue? A. No. Q. Did you see bleeding onto a counter? A. No. Q. Had you seen any blood? A. No. Q. When you got outside with Mr. Simpson, then what happened? A. Okay. Now that I thought that he was setting the alarm, I came out this way and I noticed that the bag was still there, and I thought that's part of the luggage, and I started to walk towards the bag, to get the duffel bag, to pack it. Q. And then what happened? A. And then he said to me, no, Kato, I'll get that, I'll get that. Q. Who said that? A. O.J. Q. What did he say? A. No, Kato, I'll get that, I'll get that. Q. Then what did he do? A. Then I turned around, and he came that way and I -- then I never saw what happened. MR. PETROCELLI: And you may resume the witness stand. Let me get an exhibit. This has been previously marked as Exhibit 899? MR. FOSTER: Yes. (Displaying Exhibit 899.) Q. Let me show you what has been marked as Exhibit 899. Do you see this bag? A. Yes. Q. Is this the bag that you saw behind the Bentley? A. No. Q. Okay. Have you ever seen this bag before? A. No. Q. When you had the -- withdrawn. When you came out of the house, Mr. Simpson went to get the bag, then what happened? A. Then he got into the limousine. Q. Okay. A. And they were off. Q. Now, how did they get out of the property? A. There's another gate box. Q. Yeah. You want to point it out? (Witness indicates to Exhibit 116.) A. So they got into the limousine, and it's in the driveway, and I went over here to the gate control box, and I opened it up. Q. Then what happened? A. They drove off. Q. They went out the Rockingham gate? A. Correct. Q. Which direction did the car turn, if you know? A. They were going to the airport, so I imagine left. Q. You did see them turn? A. I waited for the gate to close so I believe I did. Q. Did the dog run out? A. No. MR. PETROCELLI: You may resume the witness stand. (Witness complies.) Q. Now, couple of questions about what you just testified to. From the time that you last saw Mr. Simpson at the Bentley, after McDonald's, until the time that you next saw him in this area backing up the car -- are you with me? A. Yes. Q. During that period of time. A. Um-hum. Q. Did you have any contact with him at all? A. No. Q. Did you talk to him? A. No. Q. Did you hear his voice? A. No. Q. Did you hear any activity coming from the house? A. No. Q. Did you hear the chipping of golf balls? A. No. Q. Did you hear any golf balls scalding play equipment or hitting anything? A. No. Q. Did you hear doors open and close? MR. BAKER: Your Honor, there's no foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. A. No. Q. Did you hear any sound at all indicating his presence on the property? MR. BAKER: No foundation, he heard any sound from where he ever was. THE COURT: Overruled. A. No. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) You were in your room this entire time that we've been talking about, right? A. Yes. Q. Did you hear or see any activity in the backyard? A. No. Q. And you could see up into Mr. Simpson's room and the light was on? A. Yes. Q. Did you see or hear anything up there? A. No. Q. Any TV flashing? A. No. Q. Mr. Simpson had been to your room how many times that evening? MR. BAKER: Asked and answered, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Twice. Q. Had he -- Did he come to your room again? A. No. Q. Now, when you had the conversation with Mr. Simpson about, you know, the sounds that you heard, did Mr. Simpson tell you to call the police? A. No. Q. Did he tell you to call Westec? A. No. Q. Did he tell you to talk to Arnelle when she came home, Arnelle, his daughter, to make sure that she was safe? A. No. Q. Did he say anything to you about what you should do in regard to those noises? A. No. Q. When you came back from McDonald's with Mr. Simpson, do you recall what he was wearing? A. I believe it was the same outfit, the dark sweat suit. Q. After Mr. Simpson and the limousine driver left the property, what did you do? A. I went right to my room. Q. What did you do? A. I called up Rachel. Q. And you talked to her for awhile? A. Yes, I did. Q. And then what happened? A. Then there's a period during our conversation where I have call waiting, and the call waiting beep happened, and the call waiting -- I said, Rachel, I've got another call. So I got the call and it was O.J. and he said, I didn't alarm the house, did -- THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. Didn't alarm the house? Q. What did you say? A. I went, oh, I didn't know the alarm code. Q. What did he say? A. He said, well, here's the alarm code, this is what you do, and he gave me the code and said, then the light will go, I believe red, that means it's set. Q. Did you write the code down? A. Yes. Q. And then what happened? A. And then I got back on my other call and told Rachel, I'll call you right back again. Q. Okay. Now, has Mr. Simpson ever beeped you on your line before? A. No. Q. And other than what he did in the foyer minutes before when he left the property, had he ever asked you to set the alarm? A. No. Q. What did you then do? A. After I set the alarm? Q. Yes. A. Okay. So I set the alarm, I came back to the room, and I called Rachel. Q. Set the alarm. Where did you set the alarm? A. I made the same exact -- shall I go up? Q. Yes. Show the jury where the alarm pad was located. A. Now, after I told Rachel, I went back up this way, came this way, and I went right here, and it's right there by the door. (Indicating to Exhibit 116.) Q. Is it on the outside? A. Yes. Q. You did not have to enter the house? A. No. Q. And then you went back to your room? A. Yes. Q. And then ultimately you went to sleep? A. Well, I talked for quite a bit yet. Q. Okay. You may resume the witness stand. Now, I want to turn to the next evening, Monday, June 13. Were you at a friend's house? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And who is that friend, by the way? A. Grant Cramer. Q. At some point while you're at Grant Cramer's house, did you get a phone call? A. Yes, I did. Q. Who was it from? A. I believe it was Howard Weitzman. Q. Was anyone else on that call? A. O.J. Q. Mr. Simpson? A. Correct. Q. And tell us what Mr. Simpson and Mr. Weitzman said to you in that call. MR. BAKER: Objection, hearsay. MR. PETROCELLI: These are admissions, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. BAKER: It can't be an admission to Mr. Weitzman, he cannot make that admission. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. You may answer. A. I believe, to the best of my recollection, there was going to be a meeting they wanted me to go to, to talk to lawyers. Q. Did they ask you any questions? A. I think they asked me about the events of everything that happened. Q. And you answered their questions? A. Yes. Q. Now, did you then leave Mr. Cramer's house? A. At some time, yes, I did. Q. Where did you go? A. I went back to Simpson's house. Q. By the way, did you know who Howard Weitzman was in that telephone call? A. I knew he was a lawyer. I didn't know what he looked like. Q. Now, after you left Mr. Cramer's house, where did you go? A. Back to the house, to Rockingham. Q. Was this evening now? A. Yes. Q. Monday, June 13? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And when you entered the house, what did you see? A. It was full of media everywhere, and then I went into the house and there was groups of people sitting in the living room area in front of the TV. Q. Inside the house? A. Inside the house. Q. There weren't media in the house? A. No. Q. You meant outside? A. There was media outside, parked outside. Q. Now, in the house what did you see? A. Inside the house everybody was watching TV and shouting to the events of the day of saying, oh -- making comment to the reporter's. Q. You mean on television? A. Television. Q. They were shouting at the television. Was Mr. Simpson there? A. Yes. Q. And what was he doing? A. He was sitting in a chair watching it also. Q. And did you notice anything about him? A. Yes. Q. What did you notice? A. I noticed on his finger he had a tissue paper and there was blood dripping -- blood seeping through. Q. Now, did there come a time that evening that you had a conversation with Mr. Simpson? A. Yes. Q. And how long after you got there did you have that conversation? A. The time frame -- I don't know exactly how long. I'd -- you know, I'm guessing 10 or so minutes. Q. Where did that conversation occur? A. In the kitchen. Q. Who was present in the kitchen during that conversation? A. I believe it was just us. Q. Who is us? A. O.J. and Kato. Q. And tell me what was said. A. He had said, you saw me go into the house after McDonald's, and I had said, no, I didn't. He had said that I saw him walk into the house from McDonald's. Q. O.J.? A. O.J. said that to me. He said, Kato, you saw me go into the house from McDonald's. Q. And what did you say? A. I said, no, I didn't. Q. Why did you say that? A. Because I didn't. Q. Now, the next day, on June 14, Tuesday, were you interviewed by any lawyers? A. Yes, I was. Q. And who were the lawyers who interviewed you? A. I was interviewed by Skip Taft and Robert Shapiro. Q. Mr. Shapiro here in the courtroom today? A. Right there. Q. And did Mr. Shapiro ask you what time you heard the noises? A. Yes, he did. Q. And what did you tell Mr. Shapiro? A. In my interview I said, I heard it between 10:40 and 10:50. Q. Was that based on looking at a watch or a clock? A. No. Q. Was it an estimate? A. Yes, it was. Q. Was that the first time you'd been interviewed by lawyers? A. Yes, it was. Q. And did you understand Mr. Shapiro was the lawyer for Mr. Simpson? A. Yes, I did. MR. PETROCELLI: No further questions, Your Honor. THE COURT: Cross-examine. THE CLERK: For the record, the last exhibit was Defense Exhibit 899. I just wanted to put on the record that it's marked by reference to case number BA097211. MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, I'd like to move all the exhibits I marked into evidence. For the record, they are numbers 181, 194, 143, 114, 188, 189, 199, 2197, and 899. MR. LEONARD: That doesn't include the one chart we were speaking about that's inaccurate or does it? MR. PETROCELLI: It does. MR. LEONARD: We would object to that. THE CLERK: That's 199? MR. PETROCELLI: That's 199. THE COURT: Okay, 199 is not received. Everything else is. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you, Your Honor. (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 181.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 194.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 143.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 114.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 188.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 189.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 2197.) (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Plaintiffs Exhibit No. 899.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER: Q. Good morning, sir. A. Morning. Q. Now, Mr. Kaelin, you are an actor, right? A. Correct. Q. Kind of a want-to-be actor, would that be fair? A. I studied. I don't know. Q. Okay. And you have your attorney here in the courtroom? A. Yes. Q. Is your agent here? A. No. Q. Okay. Now, in terms of -- in terms of your involvement in the O.J. Simpson case, you were interviewed on June 13, 1994 by a couple police officers, correct? A. Correct. Q. You were interviewed by Mr. Shapiro and Skip Taft on the 14th, correct? A. Correct. Q. You testified at the preliminary hearing under penalty of perjury in June of 1994, correct? A. Correct. Q. You testified at the preliminary hearing under penalty of perjury in July of 1994, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you testified at the criminal trial under penalty of perjury in -- was it February of 1994? MR. LEONARD: '95. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) '95, I'm sorry. You testified in 1995 in the criminal trial, true? A. Correct. Q. All right. Now, you had -- before your deposition was given in this case, also under penalty of perjury, you spent what, eight, nine hours with Mr. Petrocelli? A. Correct. Q. And after that deposition was taken and before you got on the witness stand today, you spent how many more hours, about, with Mr. Petrocelli? A. I spent three and a half hours on Sunday, and an hour, probably, today. Q. And you went over and had breakfast with Mr. Medvene this morning across the street? A. I had to. Q. I hope they paid. A. I think so. Q. In terms of your testimony, you testified -- and I want to get to one area, then we'll go back and try to go through it chronologically. You testified about Mr. Simpson, after he got back from the recital, talking about Nicole wearing tight fitting dresses. Remember that? A. Yes, I do. Q. And you told the grand jury in June, within two weeks of the murders occurring, that Mr. Simpson was joking, correct, when he was talking about the dresses? A. If I could see it. I said that. Q. Well, do you have a recollection of that, sir? A. I don't right now, no. MR. BAKER: Bring up, please, page 59, line 24 through page 60, line -- see right there. (Transcript page displayed on TV screen.) "Q. And he was making reference to tight dresses or outfits? And you answer, dresses, yeah. "Did he seem angry when he said that? "A. No." Pull it over to page 60. MR. P. BAKER: What line? MR. BAKER: Keep going. I'm sorry. Page 60, lines 1 through 15. Maybe that's -- MR. PETROCELLI: Now, Your Honor, I don't mind this for ease of convenience, he ought to go to a specific place rather than scrolling through this transcript. It's not proper. THE COURT: If you could direct your operator to go to a particular location without scrolling. MR. BAKER: My technical operator hasn't followed my directions for the last 28 years. (Laughter) MR. BAKER: Did you go to page 60? Just bring it down. Yeah. Line 1. (Transcript displayed on TV screen.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You just testified -- MR. BAKER: It'd be there, when he was talking about "good-naturedly." Is that 59? Yeah, I'm sorry. Okay. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, when she's going to be older, joking, like wearing tight fitting clothes, good-naturedly, like a grandma; that's what you were talking about Mr. Simpson in his conversation with you on the -- on June 12 after he had been to the recital, correct? A. That he said that, yes. Q. And then when you say good-naturedly, that's what he was acting like -- "A. Yes. "Was he laughing? "Yeah, joking and laughing." Q. Okay. Now, that was your testimony in June of 1994, about that tight dress incident, correct? A. Correct. MR. BAKER: Now, bring up the preliminary hearing, page 88, lines 23 to 28. You can put it on the Elmo if you want. (Transcript displayed on Elmo.) MR. BAKER: It starts, I think, at 13, 14 and 15, they were wearing tight outfits. Okay. Pull it up a little further so we go down to the end. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, he was kind of -- his tone was not angry, he was kind of matter of fact. That's what you told the jury under penalty of perjury when you had your preliminary hearing testimony, correct? THE COURT: I don't think there was any jury. MR. BAKER: I apologize. Preliminary hearing. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) That's what you told at the preliminary hearing? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Okay. Now, pull up, please, his depo transcript or trial transcript in the criminal trial, page 20337 or just 2000 is fine. MR. PETROCELLI: Can I have a page and line reference, Mr. Baker, please. MR. BAKER: I don't have a line reference. MR. PETROCELLI: Well, give me a chance -- what's the page. MR. BAKER: 2,000 -- 20,000, I'm sorry. Could you pull it up a little farther. Got a little technical glitch. Put that one on. (Indicating to Elmo.) THE COURT: What page is that? MR. P. BAKER: 20337. MR. BAKER: Lines 15 through 28. MR. PETROCELLI: What page is that? MR. BAKER: This is 20,337. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And now, you testified that he was upset, he made a point to say tight dresses. That, I mentioned before, that was your testimony at the criminal trial, correct? A. Yeah. I don't know what's before that, if it's about the comment about Sydney or not. I think he was more upset about -- Q. Well, as a matter of fact, you never mentioned the hardball comment about Sydney in the preliminary hearing or when your testimony was before the grand jury, did you, sir? MR. PETROCELLI: Object, Your Honor. If he has a prior inconsistent statement, he can show it to him, but we don't know what was asked, and I don't think -- MR. BAKER: I object -- THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You never mentioned one thing about Mr. Simpson and any purported comments from Nicole Brown Simpson about playing hardball with Sydney in the grand jury hearing or in the preliminary hearing, did you, sir? A. No. Q. And you had -- when you were talking about going in the front door, remember that, on the night of the 12th when O.J. Simpson was coming back with you from getting a hamburger -- do you remember that? A. Going into the -- towards the nook area? Q. Yeah. A. Yeah. Q. And you recall that on the 13th of June about 1:30 you had your statement taken by Officers Carr and Tippin, remember that? A. I remember those guys, yeah. Q. And that was within a couple hours of this incident of coming back from -- I mean it was within 15 hours or so of this incident of coming back from McDonald's, right? A. Yes. Q. And did you say the following? MR. BAKER: And I need a new number on this. THE CLERK: 2198. MR. LEONARD: 2198. MR. BAKER: Thank you. (The instrument herein described as Copy of Brian Kaelin's statement of 6/13/94 was marked for identification as Defendants' Exhibit No. 2198.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You did give your statement to Tippin and Carr June 13, 1994 at 1330 hours, that is 1:30 in the afternoon, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you were born on March 9, 1959 correct? A. Correct. Q. All right. And you were born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you told the officers at that time, that you drove to McDonald's and O.J. ate in the car, they ordered through the drive-through, ordered from -- it says MA male Hispanic, female Hispanic gave them the food; is that correct? Male Hispanic and female Hispanic? A. Pretty sure. MR. PETROCELLI: I object to the reading of this report. This is a hearsay document. It's not his report. He can show it to him to refresh his recollection, but he can't read a report to him prepared by somebody else. MR. BAKER: This is a report made in the ordinary course of business. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) O.J. ordered double meat hamburger, fries, no drink, witness ordered chicken sandwich meal, witness paid for food, O.J. ate while driving, they returned to O.J.'s house, witness entered through side of the house into his room, O.J. entered through front. Did you tell them that about 15 hours after you had gone to McDonald's, Mr. Kaelin? A. Best of my recollection, no. I think they're assuming that. Q. The rest of it you told them that's the only thing in the paragraph I read to you you didn't tell them, right. MR. PETROCELLI: Objection, argumentative. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Is there anything else that I read to you, sir, that you say you didn't tell the police? A. I don't know. Q. All right. Now, let's go back -- you, in 1992, I guess were in Aspen, Colorado where you first met Nicole Brown Simpson; is that correct? A. Correct. Q. And you met her with a friend of yours, and what's his name? A. Grant Cramer. Q. And Mr. Cramer and you went to a party and met her there, correct? A. Correct. Q. And subsequently, when you returned to Los Angeles, she invited you and Mr. Grant Cramer to a party at her house on Gretna Green, true? A. True. Q. And when you were at that house on Gretna Green you noticed the back house, did you not? A. Yes, I did. Q. And then you invited yourself to be a tenant in the back house to Ms. Nicole Brown Simpson, did you not? A. No. There was talk about it -- the guest house. Q. And in any event, sir, you -- you moved in almost immediately after that party into the back house at Gretna Green, correct? A. I think two weeks or so. Q. Okay. And you lived at that house from January of 1993 to January of 1994, correct? A. Correct. Q. And during that period of time, you met O.J. Simpson, did you not? A. Yes, I did. Q. And you became kind of a confidante of Nicole Brown Simpson, didn't you? MR. PETROCELLI: Beyond the scope, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. She told me things, yes. Q. And she told you things, for example, in February or March of 1993, you would have these little conversations with her, would you not? A. Yeah. I don't know the exact dates but we had conversations. Q. And she indicated to you by March of 1993 that she wanted to get back and remarry O.J. Simpson, didn't she? MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object as beyond the scope and can I have a continuing objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. It was back and forth. Q. She told you she wanted to remarry O.J. Simpson and the best times of her life was when she was with O.J., isn't that true? A. I think it was that good time and bad times. Q. Did she not tell you that the best times of her life were with O.J. Simpson; yes or no, sir? A. I mean the conversations -- there were times she said that, yes, sir. Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, in terms of Mr. Simpson, he would come over in his Bronco and pick up the kids, would he not? A. At Gretna Green? Q. Yes. A. Yeah. Yes. Q. And you saw him do that, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you saw him go over to Gretna Green and pick up -- by the way, did it ever -- were you -- do you have any thoughts why they named the dog after you? A. No, I was confused. Q. Okay. Mr. Simpson would come over and -- A. What do you mean by that? No -- Q. Did you think that was a compliment -- well, never mind. Did Mr. Simpson come over and pick up the dog and take the dog and the kids at times? A. I don't remember offhand. Q. Well -- A. The kids for sure. Q. Pardon? A. The kids for sure. Q. And he would -- while you lived at Rockingham, you saw Chachi over at Rockingham on occasion as well as Kato, the dog, at Rockingham? A. I seen Kato there maybe once or twice the entire time. THE COURT: Mr. Baker, come back at 1:30. Ladies and gentlemen, don't talk about the case, don't form or express any opinions. Media in the audience, you're ordered not to approach this witness until this witness has completed his testimony. This witness is ordered not to speak to the media until this case -- testimony is completed. Mr. Baker, Mr. Petrocelli. THE BAILIFF: Judge is still on the bench. Quiet, please. THE COURT: Rest of you leave. (A bench conference was held which was not reported.) (At 11:57 A.M. a recess was taken until 1:30 P.M. of the same day.) SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) THE COURT: You may resume. MR. BAKER: Thank you. BRIAN KAELIN, the witness on the stand at the time of the luncheon recess, having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows: CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. BAKER: Q. Now, Mr. Kaelin, when we broke for lunch, we were talking about the time period when you still lived at Gretna Green, correct? A. Correct. Q. And when you -- when you were living there, you wanted Nicole and O.J. Simpson to reconcile, to get back together, did you not? A. Yes. Q. And you expressed that opinion to Mr. Simpson, did you not? A. Yes. Q. And that was your feeling the whole time that you lived at Gretna Green; that Mr. Simpson and Nicole Brown Simpson should reconcile and remarry, right? A. I said off and on that -- that if they couldn't get together, they should possibly separate for six months. I mentioned that a few times. If it doesn't work after that, divorce, but if it does work, get back together. Q. Now, you were present at the dispute that took place on October 25, 1993, at least for part of it, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you had Mr. Simpson with you in the back house where you resided, true? A. For part of it, right. Q. And he never, obviously, threatened you or anyone else during that period of time, did he? A. No. There was myself back there and the police, I guess, in the guest house back there. Q. For part of the time before -- before the police got there, you were with him by yourself, correct? A. Never in the guest house, but outside. Q. All right. And he never threatened anyone, did he, with phys -- anything physical, did he, sir? A. There was no physical harm. Q. Now, towards the end of December of 1993, you were told by Nicole that you would have to move out and find your own place, correct? A. Say it again. Q. In December of 1993, you were told by Nicole, or you were -- you had conversations and you knew you had to move out of the back house of Gretna Green, correct? A. On and off. It was one week yes, one week no. Q. And you had first thought you were going to be able to move into Bundy, true? A. Yes. Q. And you had a conversation with O.J. Simpson about whether or not you should move into Bundy, did you not? A. Yes. Q. And that conversation went to the issue of whether or not he felt it would be good for the kids to have a young man of your age living with his ex-wife and his children, true? A. Inside the same house, correct. Q. And before January of 1994, in the year that you lived at 325 South Gretna Green, you paid some rent to Nicole; at other times, you took kind of credit for babysitting and that sort of thing, didn't you? A. For babysitting, yes. Q. And your basic rent was basically in the neighborhood of four, five hundred a month, correct? A. Correct. Q. And O.J. Simpson indicated to you that since he didn't want you to be living in the house with his ex-wife and his children, that you could live in the guest house at Rockingham, correct? A. Correct. Q. And he wouldn't charge you any rent, true? A. True. Q. And so you were aware, before you ever moved into the house at -- the guest house at 360 North Rockingham, that Nicole Brown Simpson did not want you to live there; isn't that true? A. She told me to -- she had a conversation with O.J. about it. Q. You were aware before you ever moved into 360 North Rockingham, that Nicole Brown Simpson did not want you to move into the guest house at O.J.'s house, true? A. I don't think it's true. Q. All right. Let me go back and ask you a couple of things. A. Okay. Q. In your -- from December of 1992, when you first met Nicole, she had introduced you, obviously, to O.J. Simpson, correct? A. At one point, yes. Q. She had introduced you to Marcus Allen, correct? A. Correct. Q. You had gone on a date with Nicole, Marcus and a friend of yours, had you not? A. Correct. Q. You had actually -- I think you indicated in examination by Mr. Petrocelli, you never socialized with O.J. You and your kids -- you and your son actually went out with O.J. and his kids, did you not? A. My daughter. Q. Daughter. I'm sorry. A. With Sydney and Justin, yes. Q. So you did at least socialize at some time with him before June 12, 1994? A. At one time, yes. Q. Relative to the issue, sir, of you moving into 360 North Rockingham, you -- MR. BAKER: Would you pull that up on the Elmo. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You were certainly aware that Nicole had requested you not to move into the guest house; yes or no? A. Yes and no. Yes and no. It was mixed. I think -- can I explain? Q. Sure. Go ahead. A. There was a point where she said, he's -- he manipulated you. He got you to go to his house. Q. That was before -- that was after you moved in, was it not? A. That was during that January when I moved in. Q. But you were aware that if you moved in, the relationship that Nicole Brown Simpson and you had would certainly decline, correct? A. I didn't know it would decline, but it did decline, yes. Q. As a matter of fact, you knew it was going to decline, and you forsook Nicole Brown Simpson for $500 a month rent? A. No. MR. BAKER: Pull that up. MR. PETROCELLI: I would like page references before he starts. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: 496, lines 7 through 9. No. Wait till he's had a chance to look at it. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Thanks. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And you testified: Question: "And when you went to Mr. Simpson's house, you didn't have to pay rent at all, true? "A. Yes." "So it was a better deal and you forsook Ms. Simpson for $500 a month, right?" And your answer was yes; isn't that true sir? A. That's what I say there, yes. Q. That is true; you forsook Nicole Brown Simpson for $500 a month, after she had met you in Aspen and given you a place to live for basically one year, true? A. I guess I didn't interpret the "forsook" for that -- the negative connotation; but yes, I lived at O.J.'s for free. Q. And Nicole wouldn't come over if you were at O.J.'s correct? A. No, she came by. Q. And asked you to leave, for example, if in fact the kids were going to swim; isn't that true? A. Sometimes, yes. Q. Sometimes? Every time; isn't that correct? A. Not if my daughter was there. Q. Now, you and Nicole never were friends after you moved into O.J.'s house on January -- first week of January of 1994, correct? A. I think -- Q. Correct? A. -- I was still a friend. Q. And she wouldn't talk to you, true? A. Off and on, yes. Q. Now, after you got to Mr. Simpson's house and lived in his guest house (indicating to Exhibit 116 with overlay), you weren't great pals with O.J. Simpson, were you? A. Correct. Q. But you shared some conversation -- some conversations and some social discourse with him, did you not? A. Yes. Q. Now, in terms of where your room was over in the guest wing of the home -- A. Can I go down there? (Pointing to Exhibit 116 with overlay.) Q. Now, in the area where your place is -- your room was, that's about what, three feet below the pool decking area right adjacent to it, and these are steps that lead up to it, correct? A. Right. Cement here and steps. Q. All right. And then there is a -- an office that is right adjacent to the room that you used, correct? A. Correct. Q. And then this is a little hallway with steps, and there's a pool table in there, correct? A. Right, into the house. Q. Okay. Now, that -- that's a pretty substantial home in terms of construction, is it not, sir? A. Yes. Q. That house is -- Well, let me ask you this question. Mr. Petrocelli asked you a few questions concerning noise. Now, you couldn't hear what went on in O.J. Simpson's house when you were in your room, normally, could you? A. No. I -- It was -- I could hear a phone ring if it kept ringing and ringing, but I couldn't hear any verbal -- Q. The phone rang in the bar area? A. Correct. Q. In the bar area. And Mr. Simpson's home is in an area right in here where I've drawn this little -- it should be a semicircle, but it's not. MR. P. BAKER: The overlay will be 2199. (The instrument herein referred to as Overlay to Plaintiffs' Exhibit 116, diagram entitled 360 N. Rockingham Avenue, was marked for identification as Defendants' Exhibit No. 2199.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Were you in his house enough to remember where the bar area was? A. Um-hum. It was -- Q. And Mr. Simpson didn't ask your permission to go out and hit golf balls on his front lawn, did he? A. No. Q. And you normally, when you were there, stayed back in your room, did you not, sir? A. True. Q. And he didn't check with you if he was going to have people in or if he wasn't going to have people in, correct? A. Correct. Q. In other words, you had a separate life from Mr. Simpson when he was actually in residence at 360 North Rockingham; you would agree with that? A. Yes. Q. And Mr. Simpson, when you moved in, was basically not in that house, almost virtually never, until in May of 1996; isn't that true? A. Pretty much so, yeah. Q. So, I mean, when Mr. Petrocelli asked you the first time he ever -- second time he ever came to your house -- he was in New York the first couple of months, and then he was in Puerto Rico, shooting a film, all the month of April; isn't that true? MR. PETROCELLI: Object, Your Honor, because it misstates the record. No evidence of that. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Isn't it true he was in Puerto Rico virtually the whole month of April, shooting a film. A. He was filming. I don't know -- I don't remember the exact dates. Q. You were aware he wasn't around that house when you first moved in; he was back in New York, working for NBC for the pro football season, correct? A. Correct. Q. So you didn't have many chances for any social intercourse with O.J. Simpson until May of 1996; isn't that true? MR. BLASIER: '94. MR. BAKER: I'm sorry. '94. THE WITNESS: For some of it, yes. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, in terms of your going in and out of the Rockingham address, you used to park over on Ashford Street, then you would come in -- the one gate was rigged so you could push it open, correct? A. Right. You got to move it yourself. Q. And that was the left gate as you faced the gate from Ashford? A. Right, the Ashford side. Q. Left gate as you face the gate from Ashford? A. Right. Q. Correct. Right? Left? A. You know, the gate on Ashford. Q. At any rate. (Laughter.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You would normally park your car in the area where my pen is, walk in, push the gate open, walk down the path, walk around, and not disturb anybody in the house, true? A. True. Q. Okay. Now, in terms of your relationship with Mr. Simpson, at times you'd come in and he's in the area where the bar is; that's a den area, is it not, family-room area? A. Where the bar area is? Q. Yeah. A. Well, where the TV is. Q. Okay. Now, on this wall where I'm putting an X, there is a television built into the wall, is there not? A. Yes. Then there's sofas over in here. THE WITNESS: I need a different marker. MR. PETROCELLI: I assume you're referring to the first floor, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: I'm sorry. MR. PETROCELLI: First floor, right. MR. BAKER: I am. I am. Thank you. (Mr. Baker marks on overlay, Defendants' Exhibit 2199.) Q. Would it be accurate to say there are sofas that go like this, or cocktail table or some table in the middle? A. Right. Q. Then there are chairs that go around the bar area, true? A. True. Q. And then as you go, there's a dining room behind here, and then a kitchen goes all the way here, and -- well, I can't draw it very well. A. Somewhat, right. Q. Okay. I'm not very good at this. In any event, sir, you would, at times, come in and he'd be sitting there on the sofa, watching television, correct? A. Yes. Q. And you had some interchange with him during the times that he was doing that, true? A. If he called me in, yes. Q. And now, you had met Marcus Allen, in fact, gone out on a social engagement with him? A. Once, right. Q. And O.J. Simpson was not jealous of Marcus Allen, was he. MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Lack of foundation; no personal knowledge. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You had a conversation with O.J. Simpson about Marcus Allen, and he indicated to you he didn't mind Nicole doing whatever Nicole did with Marcus Allen; isn't that true? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: Relative to my client saying that to him? THE COURT: Yeah, self-serving hearsay. MR. BAKER: It's a leading question, Your Honor but it's an admission. THE COURT: It's an admission if it's offered by an adverse party. It's a self-serving admission when offered by your own side. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) In any event, you never heard Mr. Simpson indicate that he was jealous of anything Nicole did; isn't that true. MR. PETROCELLI: Same objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, in May of 1994, you became aware -- well, strike that. Did you ever become aware that Mr. Simpson and Nicole Brown Simpson had ceased their reconciliation period? A. At some point, yes. Q. That was in May of 1994, was it not? A. I think -- I think so. Q. You learned that from conversations you had with O.J. Simpson, true? A. I think it was O.J. Simpson and Cora Fischman. Q. And Mr. Simpson was not mad, upset, or distraught about that when he told you, was he? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Hearsay. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I -- I don't know. I can't answer that. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Well, have you ever testified before that Mr. Simpson was not jealous about Nicole Brown Simpson? A. If you'd show me -- Q. Do you have a recollection of ever testifying before that he was not jealous, sir? A. I think I said possibly. It was off and on. They were together and not together. Q. Now, in terms of May of 1994, you were aware that O.J. Simpson, after they had broken up, went over and took care of Nicole, correct, when she was ill? A. Correct. Q. And he didn't -- through any conversations you had with him, he didn't voice any animosity towards Nicole Brown Simpson, did he, sir? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Self-serving hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: Can you pull up 515, lines 2 -- MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me, Mr. Baker? MR. BAKER: 515 of his depo. MR. PETROCELLI: Deposition, okay. What line, Mr. Baker? MR. BAKER: It's going to start on 512. (Deposition transcript displayed on TV screen.) THE WITNESS: This is from? MR. BAKER: Your deposition. MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object on hearsay grounds, Your Honor, for this testimony. MR. BAKER: 512, lines 24 through 13 of 513, Phil. MR. PETROCELLI: It's also irrelevant. THE COURT: What line? MR. BAKER: 512 through line 16 -- through 513, line 13. THE COURT: 16 starts in the middle of a sentence. So if he's -- MR. PETROCELLI: That's what I have, too. What's the question, the first question, Mr. Baker? Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you testify in the grand jury? MR. PETROCELLI: That's a different reference. That's 512, line 16, Your Honor. THE COURT: Line 16 starts with that. MR. BAKER: Let me read from the deposition. MR. PETROCELLI: Object to this; he can't just read from the depositions. It's got to be a foundation for it, Your Honor. There has to be a prior inconsistent statement; otherwise, it's hearsay. THE COURT: What's the question preceding this? Okay. Objection sustained. There's no question that was asked that is being refreshed or impeached. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Mr. Kaelin? A. Yes? Q. Your state of mind, when you testified before the grand jury in June of 1994, was that O.J. Simpson was not jealous of Nicole Brown Simpson dating -- MR. PETROCELLI: Object. MR. BAKER: -- correct? MR. PETROCELLI: Object. His state of mind is irrelevant. There's no basis to read in prior testimony. It's hearsay. It's irrelevant. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: On what ground, Your Honor? THE COURT: What does this witness's state of mind have to do with anything? Doesn't have anything . . . MR. BAKER: Has to do with this purported motive -- THE COURT: Mr. Kaelin has no motive -- MR. BAKER: -- purported motive of my client, Your Honor. And this man was around him and testified to it. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think it has anything to do with Mr. Simpson's conduct, his state of mind, Your Honor. Mr. Baker objected in my examination -- MR. BAKER: I'd like to be heard. THE COURT: I'm going to overrule it. You offered evidence as to his state of mind, and I'll permit examination at this point. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, you had communication with Nicole Brown Simpson throughout the year of 1993, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you had some communication with O.J. Simpson in 1994, correct? A. Correct. Q. And your state of mind -- and you testified to the grand jury in June of 1994, within two weeks of these murders, that O.J. Simpson was not jealous of Nicole Brown Simpson dating Marcus Allen or anybody else; isn't that true? MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object on relevance grounds, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I didn't know anything that was going on between the two. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) I didn't ask you what you knew, sir; I asked you what you testified to. A. I -- I -- if I could see it -- I don't remember. Q. All right. MR. BAKER: May I now read the -- THE COURT: You may. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) (Reading:) "Q. Did you testify at the grand jury proceeding that O.J. Simpson didn't care whether or not Nicole Brown Simpson was dating or not? "A. Yes. "Q. And did you think that was a sign of jealousy or lack of jealousy? "A. I don't know. I didn't know in someone's mind. "Q. Did you testify at the preliminary hearing that O.J. Simpson didn't care whether Nicole Brown Simpson dated anybody, including Marcus Allen? "A. Yes. That was going on. I mean, they were dating at both ends, and it seemed like it was okay for them to date. "Q. And it certainly didn't bother O.J., did it? " MR. PETROCELLI: Object. MR. BAKER: "Objection." "Q. As far as you are aware, Mr. Kaelin? "A. Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Same objection. BY MR. BAKER: (Reading:) "Q. It did or did not bother O.J. Simpson? "A. It didn't." Now, that's what you testified to in your deposition, is it not, sir? A. Yes. Q. And I take it you were under penalty of perjury in that testimony as to your truthful opinion at that time, correct? A. My opinion, yes. Q. And I take it that was your opinion when you testified at the grand jury, in the preliminary hearing, true? A. True. Q. All right. Now, in terms of your living at the house, and in terms of your access to that house, now, you didn't have a key to that house, did you? A. No. Q. You didn't have the alarm code, did you? A. No. Q. You didn't have access to the interior of that house unless you were invited in, correct? A. Correct. Q. Now, you were not invited into that house in 1994 except for how many times? A. In 1994? Q. Yeah. A. When I was living there? Q. Yes, sir. A. I don't know. Q. Less than five? A. Five to seven. I can't give you an exact number. Q. And during the time that you were living there, did Mr. Simpson ever invite you to go upstairs? A. I think once. Q. Look around to see what was up there? A. I think once. Q. And other than that, you weren't in that house; isn't that true, sir? A. Other than those -- those times? Q. Yes. A. Correct. Q. Now, in terms of Mr. Simpson's home, you had become aware from just having the kids over and playing hide and seek with your daughter and Mr. Simpson's kids, that there was really no way out around the east side of the guest quarters, correct? A. Correct. I mean, you could get by. Q. You'd have to jump? A. Yeah, or -- jump or crawl; I don't know which one. Q. And this air conditioner that is -- that's -- that stuck out in your room, that was through the wall and stuck out about chest height, did it not? A. I think that's about right. Q. And if it -- that was the lower portion. And the upper portion would be about where my nose is, correct? A. Approximately, yeah. Q. And the walls to that house were -- of the guest quarters were, in your opinion, very sturdily built, true? MR. PETROCELLI: Lack of foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: You know, I don't know what it was in the back, if it was cement or -- I don't know what it's called. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you ever take your fist and hit that wall behind that bed at all, sir? A. No. Q. Did you ever -- let me ask you: In terms of your ingress and egress -- and let's go to June 11, 1994, now, by June 11, 1994, you say you were watching television with O.J. Simpson, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you mentioned something about "The World Of Garp?" A. Correct. Q. Now, you first mentioned that in an interview that you did with Mark Elliott on December 27, 1994, some six or so months after the killings, true? A. I guess. Q. You had never mentioned that in any conversations you had with Mr. Shapiro, with any of the D.A.'s at the grand jury or at the preliminary hearing; isn't that true? A. I guess so. I was never asked anything. Q. Well, when you were having this interview with Mark Elliott, this is when you were contemplating putting out a book and making a few bucks relative to your involvement in the O.J. Simpson matter; isn't that true? A. To possibly get a book, right. Q. And in fact, you'd even signed a contract before you came up with this "World of Garp" story; that had never surfaced in any of the prior interviews; isn't that correct, sir? A. No, I didn't sign any contract. Q. You had negotiated a contract but didn't sign it? A. With Mark Elliott. Q. And this was really you, in an attempt testimony of that particular testimony about the World of Garp, attempting to cash in on your 15 minutes of fame, so to speak, wasn't it, sir? A. No. Q. Let me ask you: You had heard about this incident with this gentleman named Keith before you ever moved into O.J. Simpson's house, had you not? A. I don't believe so. I -- it was part of the 911 call, and I didn't make sense of it at that time. Q. You had never heard about that from either the October 25 incident or anything else; that went on at 325 South Gretna Green, correct? A. What I can remember, no. Q. And you heard O.J. Simpson -- and you were standing next to him with the police there, when they were talking about that incident on October 25, 1993; isn't that true, sir? MR. PETROCELLI: Question is vague as to what incident. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) The incident of oral sex in the living room of 325 South Gretna Green, with Ms. Simpson and this gentleman named Keith, correct? A. The police did come by. And when they came to my room, I sort of excused myself, and I don't remember that happening. I mean, it was dialogue with the police, but I -- Q. You tuned out of it? A. It was -- I don't remember completely the incident. But I know they came to my room and they asked who I was. And he said, he's okay, and let them talk. And I went out towards the pool area. Q. Now, on June 11, you related some conversations you had with Mr. Simpson, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you talked about this incident in the movie, "The World According To Garp," correct? A. Yes. Q. And you have a clear recollection of that, right? A. Of him telling me that story, yes. Q. And that was kind of sensational, if you were going to do a book, to put that in a book, something about oral sex. You thought that when you gave the interview to Mark Elliott, didn't you? A. No, sir. Q. Now, by the time you gave the interview to Mark Elliott, how many TV shows had you been on? A. How many television shows? I don't know. You mean news shows? Q. Anything where you agreed to go on the show. A. What was the date you're talking about? Q. It was December 27, 1994. A. I don't think many. I don't know. If you can tell me . . . Q. You have no recollection, right? A. If you can show me, I would definitely have a recollection. Q. You have no recollection in your own mind as to how many television shows you had appeared on between the time of the murders and the time you gave this interview to Mark Elliott, in preparation of selling a book? A. No. Q. How many television shows have you been on to date, from the time of the murders to the present time? A. I don't know the exact number. Q. Now, in terms of the conversation you say you had with Mr. Simpson on the 11th -- A. Um-hum. Q. -- what you can remember now is that one about "The World According To Garp" and the related incident, and a conversation about Paula Barbieri; and that's all, correct? A. At that time on that Saturday? Q. Yeah. A. I think so. Q. Isn't it true -- isn't it true, Mr. Kaelin, that when Mr. Simpson was talking about a white picket fence, he was talking about what Ms. Barbieri wanted, as contrasted to him? A. No; that's what he wanted. Q. Isn't it true she wanted a white picket fence and kids, and Mr. Simpson had said he had two families and he didn't desire anymore kids, and that's why he thought maybe Paula wasn't the one for him? Isn't that the conversation you had? A. He said he wanted the white picket fence, and he also mentioned a conversation that, yes, he didn't want anymore kids. Q. Now, do you have any other memories of any conversation with him on June 11, 1994? A. There was -- he was going to some Israeli dinner. I remember that being part of the conversation. Q. What did he tell you about that? A. It was a black-tie event. Q. What did he tell you about that? A. That he didn't really want to go to it. Q. That's all he said about it? A. It was a charity event. Q. You watched a playoff game on -- the playoff of the NBA basketball, did you not? A. Yes, in my room. Q. You watched part of it with him, didn't you? A. I don't remember if I did. Q. You had a conversation about basketball, didn't you? A. Yes. I think I told him what the score of the game -- what it was. Q. And then you didn't see him after you left his place until 2 o'clock the next morning -- the next afternoon, correct? A. Approximately. Q. And that wasn't unusual, was it? I mean, he didn't communicate with him -- you didn't communicate with him? A. Correct. Q. And so the next morning at 2:00 -- or afternoon, rather, at approximately 2 o'clock in the afternoon, you were invited into his kitchen nook, correct? A. Correct. Q. Now, did you seek an invitation into his kitchen nook? A. No. Q. Mr. Simpson was sitting in his kitchen nook when you were invited in? A. Yes. Q. Now, his kitchen nook is in the area -- well, let's just put a "K" and an "N" where I put the "K" and the "N" -- correct? A. Yes. Q. And there's a television set on the south wall, is there not? A. Yes. Q. And Mr. Simpson was watching television when he invited you in? A. I think it was on. I'm not 100 percent positive. I think the TV was on. Q. And you came in your usual method, through the driveway and out the pathway, correct? A. Correct. Q. And there's no way Mr. Simpson could have seen you; isn't that true? A. No. I think he did see me, because when you come in, if I saw the TV on in that area, I could have walked by and seen who it was. He would have said "Kato," and invited me in. Q. And so you had no business going up to the kitchen nook, otherwise, to try to get a kitchen -- to get into Mr. Simpson's house, to try to have a chat with him; isn't that true? A. To say hi. Q. Now, after you got in the kitchen nook at approximately 2 o'clock in the afternoon, was there another white picket fence conversation? A. I believe so, yes. Q. So we had two days of white picket fences, right? A. Right. The other white picket fence was to Traci Adell. Q. Now, you had -- by the time that you had your deposition taken in 1996, you had testified at the preliminary hearing, you'd given an interview to the D.A., you testified at the grand jury, you'd been on Larry King Live, you'd been on innumerable television shows, correct? A. Correct. Q. And not one time -- not one time did you ever mention one word about the IRS until you had spent eight and a half hours with Mr. Petrocelli; isn't that true, sir? A. I don't know if I said it before that or not. Q. And isn't it true that you never mentioned one thing about this alleged hardball with Sydney until you spent eight and a half hours with Mr. Petrocelli? A. I don't believe so. I think I said it before that. Q. And isn't it also true that you never mentioned one thing about the thumping at 10:50? You spent at least eight and a half hours with Mr. Petrocelli? A. No. I said that in my first interview. Q. You said that in your first interview, when you -- when you thought you got back from McDonald's at 10 o'clock, not 9:37; isn't that true? A. I think in all my interviews, I've always had an approximate of time. Q. Isn't it true when you said -- the only time you ever said 10:50, other than in this courtroom, is when you were being interviewed by Mr. Shapiro, and you said 10:50, and you believed that you got back from McDonald's at 10 o'clock? True? A. I don't think so. I think, Mr. Baker, what it was, I always had -- I had no time on me; I didn't have a watch; I wasn't keeping time. So it was always approximate when I said that. Q. We'll get back to that. A. Okay. Q. In terms of your conversation on the afternoon of the 12th with Mr. Simpson, how long did you talk to him? A. My first conversation? Maybe a half-hour. I can't give you an approximate amount of time again. Q. And the only thing you remember is this purported IRS and Sydney hardball, or Sydney hardball was afterwards? A. I remember the calendar section I was reading; that he was making phone calls. Q. The only thing that you remember from the afternoon conversation with O.J. Simpson was this issue about the IRS that you have now come to testify to, correct? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection to -- now it's argumentative, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) The only thing you can recall is mentioning something about the IRS that Mr. Simpson had allegedly mentioned to you on June 12, 1994, that you have not mentioned before your deposition, correct? A. I said it during that -- he said it during that afternoon, correct. Q. And by the way, I take it, sir, that from all of the time that you've testified, and from all of the media reports relative to this, the facts surrounding the murders and your involvement therein, that you have a clear recollection of everything you did on June 12 as it relates to these cases, true? A. No, not everything. Q. And, in fact, your memory is somewhat confused as to what you know and what you lived and what you saw on television; isn't that true? A. I did see media reports. Q. In terms of your then next encounter with Mr. Simpson, it was after Mr. Simpson had returned from the recital, correct? A. Correct. Q. And by the way, Mr. Simpson's demeanor that whole day is related to -- as near as you could tell, was nothing unusual at all; isn't that true? A. I -- MR. PETROCELLI: You mean a day, time? Q. (BY MR. BAKER) At any time on June 12, 1994, Mr. Simpson's demeanor was not unusual, other than the fact that he was tired; isn't that true? A. He was tired, yes. Q. He was not angry; he was not frustrated; he was not, in any way that you could see, anything other than a little tired and normal, correct? A. Well, you mean during conversations -- Q. Correct. A. Certain parts he'd be upset, but mostly he was tired because he was talking about his red eye. Q. And he told you on June 12, 1994, when you were in his house, that he was going to catch a red eye and go to Chicago, didn't he? A. He was going to Chicago on a red eye, yes. Q. He told you that before he ever went to the recital, didn't he? A. I don't know what part of the day it was, but he did tell me that, yes. Q. In fact, he told you that he had flown back from New York specifically to go to Sydney's recital on Sunday evening and then had to catch a red eye because he had to be in Chicago the next morning; isn't that true, sir? A. I don't remember the first part of him telling me that, of coming back from New York. Q. Now, he indicated to you that he was going to catch a red eye and it was going to be a limousine that was going to pick him up. And you knew that before 6 o'clock on June 12, 1994, true, sir? A. I knew of the red eye. Q. You knew he had a limo picking him up to take him to the airport when he flew? A. I knew there was a limo; I didn't know anything about the time coming. Q. Earlier in your testimony today, you didn't mean to imply to this jury that you didn't have any idea that a limo was going to be at the gate at some time on the evening of June 12, 1994, did you? A. Well, what it was, when I say a limo before -- Q. Did you mean to imply when this jury -- MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me. THE COURT: Excuse me. MR. PETROCELLI: He was in the middle of an answer. MR. BAKER: I wish he'd answer the question. THE COURT: You may answer. THE WITNESS: The answer would be normally, the limo driver would be inside the gate. That was the first time I'd seen the limo driver outside the gate. Q. Had you seen the limos there at all between the months of May and June, when Mr. Simpson was actually in residence at 360 North Rockingham? A. Yes, I think I've seen it maybe twice. Q. And you didn't mean to imply to these ladies and gentlemen of the jury, when you testified earlier today, that you didn't have any idea a limo was going to come and pick up Mr. Simpson on June -- the evening of June 12, 1994? A. I assumed there would be a limo picking him up. Q. Now, on the 12, after Mr. Simpson returned from the recital, it's your testimony that you then were with him again for a period of time before you went out and got in the jacuzzi, true? A. That was the time of the recital. After the recital was -- I was in the nook area before I entered the jacuzzi, correct. Q. And then you chatted with him about the recital and he was very happy about Sydney's performance, correct? A. Right. Q. And he indicated to you that he was going to pack, correct? A. I believe so. Q. And you went out and got into the jacuzzi, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you don't know where Mr. Simpson was? A. When I was in the jacuzzi? Q. Correct. A. No. Q. In fact, you didn't know where Mr. Simpson was about 99 percent of the time you were on the grounds of 360 North Rockingham; that would be true, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you didn't believe that you were Mr. Simpson's watch-keeper in any way, shape, or form, did you? A. No. Q. And you didn't believe that he was your watch-keeper in any way, shape, or form, did you? A. No. Q. Now, when you went out to the jacuzzi, after you got out of the jacuzzi, about what time was that, sir? A. I knew it was becoming dark. I was guessing it was about 8 o'clock at that time of the year, 8:00 to 8:30. Q. And we're in basically mid-June, right? A. Right. Q. All right. And so after you got out of the jacuzzi, you went into your room, and the next time you saw O.J. Simpson was when he was standing on the deck area, looking down into your room, and yelled at you? A. Correct. Q. And at that time, he was asking you for some money because all he had was $100 bills and needed change for the sky cap, true? A. No. That's when he told me I left the jacuzzi jets on. Q. He told you that he had just shut them off, did he not? A. He did. Q. Then he asked you for some money for a sky cap? A. On a second trip, yes. Q. And now, after he asked you for that, he told you he was going to go get something to eat, correct? A. Yes. Q. And you testified this morning that he paused when you asked whether or not you could go with him to get something to eat? A. Yeah. It was -- when I asked, it wasn't -- it was a hesitation, and it made me feel as if I'm inviting myself, I shouldn't be coming along. Q. Now, you never mentioned anything -- well, strike that. When you were interviewed by the LA Police Department, that was because -- and you were aware of that they felt Mr. Simpson was a suspect in the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, correct? A. Say the question again. Q. When you were interviewed on June 13, 1994, at 1:30 in the afternoon by officers Tippin and Carr, you knew at that point in time that they felt O.J. Simpson was a suspect in the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, true? A. They didn't say anything to me about that, but I assumed that's what they were doing at the house. Q. And you certainly knew by the time that you testified before the grand jury, that O.J. Simpson had been arrested and was the suspect for the double murders, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you certainly knew that when you testified before the preliminary hearing, correct? A. Correct. Q. Now, in terms of either of -- strike that. In any three of those interviews, you never mentioned one time about any alleged pausing of Mr. Simpson in your inability or ability to think that maybe you were intruding on him, did you? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. There's no foundation that he was asked any of these kind of questions, Your Honor. I object. If he's got a specific question and answer, he should present it. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Isn't that true, sir? You never mentioned purported pausing when you knew Mr. Simpson was a suspect in any of those occasions, did you, sir? A. I don't know if I did or not. It's what happened, though. Q. So you have -- was your recollection refreshed after you had the interview with Mark Elliott to try to sell your book? MR. PETROCELLI: No foundation, recollection needed refreshing Your Honor. I object. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Well, would there be any reason that you wouldn't want to give the Los Angeles District Attorney's office and the ladies and gentlemen of the grand jury and the judge in the preliminary hearing, the full evidence relative to, for example, a pause or something to that effect? MR. PETROCELLI: Object. There's no foundation. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, in terms, sir -- in terms, sir, of your discussions that night, after you say there was this pause, and then Mr. Simpson actually told you, sir, come along, didn't he? A. He -- he did, after that pause, invite me along. Q. And you went out through the house, got in his car, and drove down to McDonald's, right? A. Correct. Q. And he got his hamburger and you got your grilled chicken or whatever it was, and you headed back up towards Rockingham, correct? A. Correct. Q. And he ate his hamburger in the car and had it consumed by the time you got into the -- into the property at 360 North Rockingham, right? A. It was gone by then, yes. Q. And he didn't have any food left, did he? A. I thought he had French fries. Q. He had no food, and you knew that he'd already eaten his food before you ever said you were going to go back into the nook and eat with him; isn't that true, sir? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. It's compound. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I knew he had finished the burger, but I don't remember everything else he ordered. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, in terms of coming in -- coming back from McDonald's, do you remember if you came up San Vicente and then or -- strike that -- came up 26th Street? A. I'm pretty positive we came up 26th to Rockingham. Q. And you don't recall, as you sit here now, and haven't recalled every time it was asked, specifically which gate you came in, true? A. I think I've always thought it had to be Ashford because the way we parked the car. Q. You don't have a recollection in your mind's eye of even coming in the Ashford gate, do you, sir? A. I assume it had to be Ashford. Q. You don't have a recollection in your own mind of coming in from there; you're making an assumption because of where the car was parked, correct? A. Correct. Q. All right. All right. Now, the area where the car was parked, this little inlet area in the driveway of Mr. Simpson's property, that is an area that holds one, two, three cars? How many? A. I think there can be a car -- I think there can be a car that will go -- Q. We're back here. A. -- here and here. (Indicating to Exhibit 116.) A. This car was more right here, where I could see the taillights. Q. And in your view, his car was -- that would be the back of it, wherever it went? A. It was more out here, a little bit in there. Like that. I know I could see the back of it, though. Q. All right. A. I don't remember this part actually sticking out this much. MR. PETROCELLI: There is a photograph. MR. BAKER: Let's pull it up. I'll get it. THE COURT: Take a ten-minute recess, ladies and gentlemen. (Recess.) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) MR. BAKER: Thank you, Your Honor. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, Mr. Kaelin, even after the pause that you say you observed when you asked Mr. Simpson to go to get a hamburger, there was nothing in his demeanor or his behavior that was unusual at all except that he was tired, correct? A. Correct. Q. In other words, during the drive to get food, he was not upset, was he? A. No. Q. Now, he was not depressed? A. Well, he was tired. "Depressed," it's kind of a fine line. I thought just not talkative. So I could say, yeah, it was maybe depressed and tired, just quiet. Q. Now, let me read what you told the grand jury on page 64, lines 7 through 15? A. Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: One second Mr. Baker. Thank you. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) (Reading:) "Q. During the drive to get food, can you describe how Mr. Simpson was behaving? "A. Quiet. I asked him about -- a question about what airline he was going to fly out and what time the flight was, but he was, you know, he seemed very tired. "Q. Did he seem upset? "A. No. "Q. Or depressed? "A. No, tired. And likewise, Mr. Kaelin, on the way back, you didn't notice anything unusual other than he was tired, correct? A. Correct. Q. Now, so, by the time that you were back from the McDonald's, you knew that he was on American Airlines and his flight was at 11:45, right? A. I think I knew it was American Airlines; I knew it was a red eye, and I think he said American. MR. BAKER: Now, can we put up that photograph of the Bentley, please. MR. P. BAKER: 2197. MR. LEONARD: 2197. MR. BAKER: Thanks. I never get them right. (The instrument herein referred to as a Photograph of Mr. Simpson's Bentley automobile as it was parked on the property of 360 Rockingham was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2197.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) That's where the Bentley was parked when you came back on the 12th of June 1994 from McDonald's, correct? A. Yeah, pretty much. I don't know if it's wider on that shot. Is that the widest it goes? Q. I think it is. I think we can see all the borders of that. A. Yeah. Because I could see it better, but basically it's how it would park, yeah. Q. And now, we can see that there is some space behind Mr. Simpson's Bentley; that is still in this cut-out area, correct? A. Say it again? Q. Well, in other words, the driveway is over here, is it not? A. Um-hum. Q. And this cut-out area is so that there's an ability to park cars in the circular driveway and still get through, is it not? A. Yeah. Q. And behind Mr. Simpson's Bentley is a space where we can see that there is, you know, some tile or whatever it is, and that is in an area, as I'm pointing in this cut-out area, on 191. MR. BAKER: Is it 191? MR. P. BAKER: 116. MR. BAKER: 116. The jurors know better. (Indicating to exhibit.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) There are bushes that go right along here that we can see in this photograph; isn't that true? A. Um-hum. Yes. Q. And those bushes come up about what, two feet? A. Yeah. Looks like about two feet. Q. And that vehicle, you cannot -- well, maybe it's three feet, whatever it is. But you cannot open the right-hand passenger door with that vehicle in that position, can you? It goes right into the bushes; isn't that true, sir? A. If it's parked like that, that close, yeah. Q. And what happened on the night of June 12, 1994, as it always happens, when Mr. Simpson -- if somebody is a passenger in his Bentley and drives into that cut-out area, he is -- he lets the person out before he pulls next to the bushes because you can't get out when you get close to the bushes; isn't that correct? MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object to what Mr. Simpson always does. THE COURT: Sustained as to what he always does. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) On the night of June 12, 1994, Mr. Simpson let you out of the vehicle before he pulled it into the cut-out area, where the vehicle is pictured on the photograph on the monitor; isn't that true, sir? A. I don't think so. I think I got out and that was it, and he got out. Q. Is it your recollection, sir, as you sit here -- you know, I want you to assume that that picture is a picture taken of the Bentley on June 13, 1994, parked in the position it was parked and left on June 12, 1994. Is it your recollection, sir, that you got out, fought the bushes and struggled back through the bushes before you went out of the vehicle and towards the breakfast nook? MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object. There's no basis for that assumption, Your Honor. There's no testimony. THE COURT: Sustained. There does not appear to be any foundation as to when. MR. BAKER: That's why I asked it in a hypothetical. THE COURT: That's a compound question. Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now-- MR. BAKER: And you sustained it on the grounds of compound? THE COURT: Well, the big problem is, the primary objection is, there's no foundation for your initial question with regards to how that car was photographed in this position. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, forget how the car was photographed. I want you to assume that that car was in the area where it is depicted in this photograph. Do you have a recollection, sir, of opening the passenger door into the bushes and crawling between the bushes and the car going back towards the south, or -- strike that -- the east, towards the house? A. No, I don't remember that, going to the bushes. Q. And were you there enough to know whether or not you could get a car behind where Mr. Simpson generally parked the Bentley? A. You mean, could another car go back behind the Bentley right now? Q. Yes, sir. A. In that spot -- Q. Yeah. A. -- there? Yeah. Because there was this driveway. A few cars would park there. Q. Forget the driveway. At least in the cut-out area -- that's what we've been calling it, this area cut out -- so that the driveway can still be used to go in one gate and out the other, is it your recollection that the Bentley would usually be parked in the -- toward most -- area closest to Rockingham, and that Arnelle Simpson would park her Saab behind that vehicle? A. I couldn't tell. Two cars could fit there, but I didn't know which would be in front or behind. Q. And Mr. Simpson generally, to your recollection, drove his Bronco, as contrasted to his Bentley? A. Yeah, I think -- I think more the Bronco. Q. Now, you say that you walked after -- wherever you got out of the Bentley, you walked towards the house, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you were walking towards the kitchen nook? A. Yes. Q. And you never told any LA Police Officers, not named Tippin or Carr or anyone else, that Mr. Simpson went into the front of the house, did you? A. No. Q. And you don't know how that appeared in their police report on the statement taken by you at 1:30 in the afternoon of June 13, 1994, correct? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection, Your Honor. It's not a police report; it's handwritten notes; and it's not in the subsequent reports. THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer if you know. THE WITNESS: Say the question again. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You don't have any idea how it appeared in the police interview of you at 1:30 in the afternoon of June 13, 1994, that you walked into the house the prior evening, towards the house, and that Mr. Simpson entered the front of the house? A. I have no idea how that appeared. Q. Now, and you've testified to this jury that you believe you were going into the kitchen nook to have -- to finish your meal with Mr. Simpson, right? A. Um-hum. Yes, I did. Q. You knew because you'd already been, of course, in the vehicle with him, that he had a flight to catch later that evening, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you knew, because you saw him, that he had eaten his hamburger in the car, correct? A. Correct. Q. And nonetheless, it is your testimony that you thought you were going to go into the kitchen nook and eat it, right? A. Correct. Q. Okay. Now, you then went around through the driveway, around the path, across the deck area, and down into your room, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you went and you were on your bed, as I understand it, talking on the telephone and eating whatever, your chicken sandwich that you had gotten? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you stayed basically in that position; that is, lying on the bed, talking first to Tom O'Brien and then to Rachel, correct, until such a time as you got up after you heard these thumps that you have testified to on many occasions, correct? A. No. After Tom, I got up to get the typewriter. Q. Okay. A. And I was moving around. Q. By the way, you talked about that typewriter. That was another thing you talked about with Mr. Simpson on the way to get your hamburger, wasn't it? A. Right, yeah. Q. And you just asked if you could use the typewriter. And he said, sure, it's Nicole's; go ahead and use it; it's fine, right? A. Right. Q. Okay. Now, when -- you then got back and you determined that the typewriter wasn't going to work in what, five minutes or so? A. Well, I was plugging it in different outlets and I didn't know if it was the outlet or the typewriter. Q. And this was in your room, correct? A. Right. It's in the office area, too. Q. And the thing never worked in any outlet, right? A. It made a noise but it wasn't working in one of the -- in any of the outlets. Q. Other than that five minutes, sir, would it be true that the rest of the time, you were basically on your bed and on the telephone? A. Yeah. And when I was on the phone with Rachel, I put the phone down and said to her, look, you know, I'm plugging it in now and it's not working. Had a -- I was joking around, so I was moving and back on the bed with the phone. Q. So for a period from approximately 9:37 until sometime close to 11 o'clock, you were on that bed, correct? A. Pretty much, yes. Q. And by the way, you can't see the upstairs of Mr. Simpson's house from the bed in your room, can you? A. If my slits are open -- I can't remember if you can see him or not from the bed -- the slits in the door -- I don't know if you can see the reflection coming out. I had the office door open because the typewriter was there, so there's this big window there, and I -- Q. Sir, just answer my question. And my question to you is -- MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me. He was answering it, Your Honor. THE COURT: I don't think it was responsive. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) My question to you was: And when you're lying back on the bed, you cannot see whether or not a light is on in the upstairs of Mr. Simpson's house from your room, or the room you were using in June of 1994; isn't that true, sir? A. It could be the way you're laying, yes. Q. And it is also true that you can't see whether or not a television is on from the position of lying in that bed, looking at -- in through the office or looking out the window from the room that you were using, correct? A. From the office, you could see through the window -- if you went outside, you could, yes, but not laying in the bed, probably not. Q. In -- So, you didn't have the ability from 9:40 -- 9:37, when you got back, to the time that you went out in front of that house, to the driveway, to see whether or not the lights were on, whether or not the television was on, with the exception of when you left your room and went out on the decking area and walked around, correct? MR. PETROCELLI: Object. It's vague. What does he mean, "the ability?" THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Partially, yes. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, in terms of your then situation, you have testified on many occasions about these thumps that you say you heard, right? A. Yes. Q. And you have each time, with the exception of your deposition in February of 1996, indicated that the thumps were rhythmic and hit the witness stand where you were testifying, right? (Mr. Baker hit the podium, demonstrating.) THE WITNESS: Correct. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And after you spent eight and a half hours or so with Mr. Petrocelli, when you were taking your deposition in February of 1996, you felt compelled to roll along the wall, didn't you? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. It's argumentative. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. PETROCELLI: It's also vague and ambiguous. THE COURT: As to form. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You didn't use your general thump, thump, thump (Mr. Baker hits the podium, demonstrating) in your deposition; you made a movement along the wall in the room when we were taking your deposition. After you had spent hours with Mr. Petrocelli -- MR. PETROCELLI: Compound. THE COURT: Compound. Sustained. MR. PETROCELLI: Lack of foundation about what he was asked to do. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, you testified in terms of that, the time that you heard these thumps were -- at the preliminary hearing, you said 10:40, 10:45, correct? MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me. Can we have a page and line reference? And that misstates the testimony, Your Honor. It's on page 104 -- MR. BAKER: It's on page 1047, to 28. MR. PETROCELLI: Also line 14. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You said 10:45 -- MR. PETROCELLI: Line 14. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) -- true? A. Approximately, right. Q. And you testified in the trial, it was 10:40 to 10:45. MR. BAKER: Page 19,873. You got that? MR. PETROCELLI: Yes, Mr. Baker. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And you testified at the criminal trial, 10:40 to 10:45, correct? A. True, with an explanation. Q. And you had -- during that period of time, you had a conversation with Rachel, true? A. Correct. Q. And at approximately 9 -- 10:30, rather, you and Rachel -- you said to her -- she said to you something -- you both indicated that it was 10:30, or you had a conversation that it was approximately 10:30 at that time, did you not? A. I think it was all approximate. Q. You testified it was approximately 10 minutes later that you heard the thumps, at 10:40, correct? A. If -- you have to show me if it's on there. Q. Trial testimony, page 19,873. MR. PETROCELLI: What line, Mr. Baker? MR. BAKER: I'm sorry, I don't have a line in front of me. Let me get it for you. I'm sorry. THE WITNESS: Mr. Baker, I was never aware of time, so it was always approximate. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Let me read from 19,873. Now, by the time you testified on March 22, 1995, there was at least what, 50 people that asked you what time it was that you heard the thumps? A. I have no idea. Q. Well, you certainly had been asked by Marcia Clark, hadn't you? A. That's one person. Q. You certainly had been asked by Mr. Cochran hadn't you? A. Probably, yes. Q. You certainly had been asked by Mark Elliott, hadn't you, in your interview with him? A. Possibly. Q. You certainly were asked at the grand jury and the preliminary hearing, weren't you? A. Um-hum. Q. You were asked by news reporters, weren't you? A. I don't think so. Q. You had, before you testified at the criminal trial, spent hours with the District Attorney relative to your testimony, had you not sir? A. Yes, I did. Q. How many hours did you actually spend with the D.A.s before you got on the witness stand in March of '95? A. I don't know how many hours. It was a few -- quite a few. Q. Was it over 15? A. I think so. Q. And you knew in those interviews, they had asked you on numerous occasions how you judged the time at 10:40; isn't that correct, sir? A. I think I've always said "approximately." Q. Okay. And how you judged the time at approximately 10:40, you were asked that on numerous occasions before you testified at the trial, were you not, sir? A. I believe so. Q. And you testified at page 19873, that page, lines 7 through 16: "Q. At that point, sir, that you heard the thumps on the walls, sir, about how long had you been on the phone with Rachel Ferraro? "A. About a half an hour. "Q. So approximately what time was it when you heard the thumps on the wall? "A. It was about 10:40. "Q. Is that exactly 10:40? "A. Well, I don't remember I didn't look at a clock, but around 10:40." That's what you said, is it not, sir? A. Yes, it is. Q. And you didn't say 10:50, did you? A. No; I said "around." Q. And you then testified that -- and you'd previously testified 10:40 to 10:45, correct -- A. If -- Q. -- at the criminal trial? A. If it's on there, I probably said that, around that time, yes. Q. And you didn't testify to in the neighborhood of 10:50, did you, sir? A. Well, it's like the explanation; again, I didn't have -- I didn't have a clock or a watch. Q. You didn't talk about 10:50 at any time after you had given a statement to Mr. Shapiro, when you thought you got back from McDonald's at 10 o'clock, until -- until you spent hours with Mr. Petrocelli; isn't that true? MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me, Your Honor. This is an absolute misstatement of the Shapiro interview. Got home at 9:40 to 9:45. It's right here, line 17, page 20. He keeps saying 10 o'clock. I object. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) The only time you ever mentioned 10:50 wasn't until you spent eight plus hours with Mr. Petrocelli; isn't that correct? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Lack of foundation; misstates his testimony. THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You can answer. A. Say it again. Q. This is the last time. Never mind. I'll withdraw it. Never mind. Now, you demonstrated the thumps in a rhythmic fashion every time you testified about those thumps; that is, equal distance, spaced apart, every time you've testified about them, right? A. Yes. Q. And you never mentioned a vibration on the wall that you felt until today, did you? MR. PETROCELLI: Lack of foundation Your Honor. MR. BAKER: It's a question. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Well, that the picture moved, I guess it's obvious that there had to be vibration. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, let's talk about the picture. MR. BAKER: Can you put that up? (Exhibit 143 displayed on TV screen.) MR. P. BAKER: 143. THE WITNESS: That's not -- Q. That's okay. We'll get to the other picture in a minute. That's looking from, basically, the entrance to your room to the east, correct? A. As if this was the office, looking in, right. Q. Right? A. Correct. Q. And this room, besides having the walls that it has on it, has a paneling that's about a half an inch thick of wood, is it not? A. Right; there's wood on it. Q. And the air conditioner is in the area where my finger is, by the latch. That would be on the -- on the east side of the room, correct? A. Correct. Q. And then there's a bathroom that adjoins that, you can enter, that adjoins the room here, correct? A. Correct. Q. And the other bathroom is a bathroom for people who are using the pool. To use it, it is only accessible from the outside; is that correct? A. Right. Q. Now -- and then there's a window in the bathroom that is a couple of feet east of the air conditioner, correct? A. Right. Q. And that window opens out to the pathway where the Rockingham glove was purportedly found, true? A. True. Q. Now -- and that window, you can open and -- A. It's -- Q. -- you wanted to throw something out, you could throw something out? A. Right. It's a wind-up window. Q. Now, in terms, sir, of your -- MR. BAKER: Did you get the other view to the -- MR. P. BAKER: 194. (Exhibit 194 displayed on the TV screen.) MR. BAKER: Thank you. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) That is then looking to the west, correct? A. Correct. Q. At an angle, obviously. And this is the double doors that open into the office, true? A. True. Q. And the light in the picture, you say, moved, right? A. The picture moved, yeah, not the light. Q. Correct. The picture, you say? A. The picture. Q. Now, you said -- you previously testified that it almost moved off the wall, didn't you? A. That it moved and it was very noticeable movement to it. Q. Okay. Let me read from your preliminary hearing testimony, page 105, lines 22 to 27. MR. BAKER: Have you looked at that, Mr. Petrocelli? MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. MR. BAKER: Will you give me some sort of signal? MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I'm sorry. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) (Reading:) "Q. So there was a picture on that wall, also? "A. (No audible response.) "Q. Is that yes? "A. Yes, it was a picture. "Q. And that picture moved when you heard the noises? "A. Yes. It almost moved off the wall." Was that your testimony on July 5, 1994, sir? A. Correct. Q. And then you also testified that through this wall and this paneling -- the next time you testified, you testified that the picture moved six inches, did you not? A. I don't remember, but if it's on there, I possibly said it. Q. And you say that the picture moved six inches. And that would be towards -- towards the west, wouldn't it? Six inches -- the lower portion -- picture moved six inches towards the west? A. It was a tilt like that (indicating). Q. That occurred after the first thump? A. I don't know exactly. Q. Second thump? A. I don't know. Q. Third thump? A. After the thumps. Q. So you then heard all three thumps and then the picture moved, right? A. Correct. Q. So the thumping had quit. And after you had completed the thumping, then the picture moved six inches, or almost off the wall, and the bottom portion of that picture moves towards the west. And that wall -- what looks like maybe there's a thermostat . . . A. It could have happened during the thumps. I wasn't positive, but it happened because of thumps and it could have gone -- Q. Which is it? A. I would think it happened during the thumps. Q. You testified here this morning that it happened after the thumps. And you testified now that it happened during the thumps. Is it your testimony that it happened during or after, or do you really not have a clear recollection of those events at all? A. No, the picture did move because of the thumps. It happened. Q. And, sir, in terms of location of these purported thumps, were they right behind the picture? A. No. Q. Were they right behind the headboard? A. Behind the headboard, yes. Q. Directly behind the headboard? MR. BAKER: Would you put the other picture on, Phil the later one. MR. P. BAKER: 143. MR. BAKER: Please tell us the number. MR. P. BAKER: 143. (Exhibit 143 displayed.) MR. BAKER: We have one other picture that looks at the headboard, do we not? No? Okay. MR. P. BAKER: 194. (Exhibit 194 displayed.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) The headboard is approximately how wide? A. It's the same length as the bed -- the width of the bed, I should say. I would imagine about five feet. Q. You were over on the right side of that bed as you face it, correct? A. Right there, correct (indicating). Q. And the thumps -- the air conditioner is at least six feet away from you? A. About that, yeah. Q. And you then heard thumps, what, behind? A. Behind me. Q. And it was some two to three minutes later, then, that you decided to investigate? A. Correct. Q. And when you investigated, you were kind of concerned about these thumps and the possibility of an intruder, correct? A. Correct. Q. And that was foremost on your mind at that time, was it not? A. Pretty much, yes. Q. And you were kind of, well, a little bit frightened, weren't you? A. Yes. Q. And you wanted to see if there was anything visible that you could associate with the noises you just heard, true? A. True. Q. And so your attention, as you left your room, went up the stairs and walked past the pool and through the path, was to determine whether or not there was any cause for the noises that you believed you heard at approximately 10:40, 10:45, right? A. I'm sorry. Can you say it one more time? Q. When you left your room and went up the stairs to -- about three steps, isn't it, something like that? A. Right. Q. An then you're on the deck area of the pool; pool's to your right; as you're traversing, as you're walking this way, the pool's on your right; you're going in a northerly direction. Around these are -- this is a wall here, and then these are glass doors, right? A. Correct. Q. And you were -- By the way, just this back door, back here (indicating to 116) A. To the bar area. Q. Yeah? A. Yeah. Q. This one, where you go up onto the little -- this is a couple of steps, too, is it not? A. Yes. Q. There's no alarm pad on that door, is there? A. I don't remember. Q. There's no lock on that door that can be opened from the outside, either, is there? A. I don't remember. Q. Now, you went to the north, got on the path, went around to the driveway area, correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And as say, your concern was the noise and the possible threat, that whatever caused those noises, could be to you or to the property, true? A. Yes. Q. And you weren't, I take it, looking to see whether Mr. Simpson's lights were on upstairs and looking to see whether Mr. Simpson's lights were on downstairs, were you? A. No, I don't think I was looking. But I think from the bedroom, it illuminates, so I could see more on the pathway in back if they were on, and I think I remember that. Q. All right. When you walk around the house, for example, when you get to the -- to the front den area, those lights are never on, are they? A. The front? You mean those coach lights or the -- Q. No. A. The actual den itself? Q. It's a poor question. I apologize. A. I accept your apology. Q. I'm delighted. MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, he's going to use the exhibit to which he previously objected. I assume his objection is withdrawn. MR. BAKER: It is not, Your Honor. But what I would like to do is to take this and just cut off the bottom portion of it, which is the only inaccuracy that I have complaints about. MR. PETROCELLI: There is nothing inaccurate about it, Your Honor. MR. BAKER: But I will give you one touche. MR. PETROCELLI: I was serious about getting that exhibit put into evidence if he's now going to use it. THE COURT: I'm not going to allow it without sufficient foundation. MR. BAKER: Sorry about this. Can we put it on that one? Maybe not. Okay. Sorry. MR. P. BAKER: That is 199. 199. (Exhibit 199 displayed.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, this den area is virtually never used, to your knowledge, is it? A. Right. Q. So there's -- you wouldn't expect any lights to be on in that room, would you? A. No. Q. If Mr. Simpson is home alone, you wouldn't expect there to be any lights on in the living room, would you? A. To be on in the living room? Q. Yeah. If he's upstairs, there would be no reason to have lights on in the living room? A. Possibly not. Q. No reason to have lights on in the family room or dining room if he's upstairs. MR. PETROCELLI: This calls for speculation. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: Now, when you went around to the driveway area, you then said in your testimony this morning that you saw the limousine parked at the Ashford gate, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you're clear, are you not, as is your testimony today, that you did not let that vehicle into the driveway until you had gone and made your first inspection, if you will, on the south side of the house by the garage? A. Correct. Q. So you walked out of that pathway, took a left turn, and then headed basically due south towards the garage area, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you walked down the garage area and there was a gate there, true? A. Yeah, right up here there's a gate. Q. All right. And that gate, it's a little chain link gate, is it not? A. Yeah, it's -- it would be like me moving this picture, same thing, you can move it. Q. All right. But -- A. It's chain link. Q. And it has obviously a metal frame around the chain link fence, does it not? A. Yes. Q. And that particular gate didn't work, did it or didn't then? A. No, you just lean it against this tree. Q. And so that gate was in place and you took it out, leaned it against the tree, and walked back a few more feet, correct? A. Correct. Q. And it was dark back there, you felt uncomfortable, so you walked back out. You put the gate back to where you had originally taken it from? A. Pretty positive, yes. Q. Now -- and the gate wasn't lying down, it wasn't askew, it was upright and you had to move it to get there both times, right? A. Correct. Q. Now, in -- in the house, how many entrances, if you know, are there to get into the house from anyplace on the south side? A. I believe that at the time I knew, there was right by the maid's -- the laundry room. Q. Also, a door goes into the garage? A. Right. Q. That goes, then, into the house? A. Correct. Q. And so if anybody was coming over the fence, they could -- and wanted to get into the house, they could enter through the maid's room or they could enter through the garage, and then into the garage, and then through the door that goes from the garage into the main living quarters? MR. PETROCELLI: Assumes facts not in evidence, incomplete hypothetical, Your Honor, in terms of keys and locks and so forth. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I imagine they could, yes. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) All right. And you knew about both of those doors, did you not, in June of 1994? A. No, I only knew of that maid's door. Q. You had gone past the door to get into the garage and you had never seen it? A. Didn't know it was there. Q. Now, in terms of the garage itself, you had been in and out of that particular room, I guess it's called, garage, had you not? A. Been in the garage? Q. Yeah. A. About three or four times, yes. Q. That's where Mr. Simpson kept a car parked in there that he virtually never used, correct? A. Correct. Q. And there were some weights and a multitude of golf clubs in there, right? A. Golf clubs, yes, bikes. Q. Bikes, weights, and basically difficult to navigate through there because of all the junk in there? A. Correct. Q. So if you were going to -- MR. BAKER: Can we put that picture up, the garage. MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, I'd like to excuse my next witness who's been waiting a couple of hours outside, is that okay? THE COURT: Let me see counsel. (A bench conference was held which was not reported.) THE COURT: Take 10, ladies and gentlemen. (Recess.) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) MR. BAKER: Thank you, Your Honor. Okay, let me put up a diagram of the property. I guess it's this one. I'm sorry. MR. P. BAKER: 116. (Exhibit 116 displayed.) MR. BAKER: 2199 is the overlay. I'm sorry. Thank you. Thank you. (Counsel adjusts Exhibit 116.) Q. Now, Mr. Kaelin, after you made your first inspection, if you will, to the south side of the garage, do you have a recollection of when you saw Mr. Simpson? A. I can't be exact. Q. In fact, sir, as you sit here today, you don't know if you saw him at all on the first inspection or the second inspection, isn't that true? A. Correct. Q. You could have walked right past him and you don't have a recollection of it when you were going around the garage to the south side for the first time, true? A. One of those times I saw him, correct. Q. And when you then went around the garage, put the gate back to where it was, you went back towards Ashford and let the limo driver in, correct? A. Yes. Q. And the limo driver then drove up and the vehicle was parked in an area in front of the driveway. In front he was facing in a southeasterly direction? A. True. Q. And then you -- there's a golf bag sitting there between -- there's a couple benches, are there not? A. Benches here, golf bag was here, laying that way. Q. And the benches run parallel to the -- well, to the entrance I guess. They run the same direction as my pen? A. Right. Q. Okay. And there was -- Mr. Simpson's golf bag was there? A. Yes. Q. You picked it up and put it in the limo? A. At one point I did, yes. Q. And now then, as I understand it, you then had a conversation with Mr. Simpson about the noises, right? A. One of those times, I did. Q. And as I understand your testimony, sir, you testified presently that you did not go into the kitchen? A. I did, I made it to the entranceway of the kitchen. Q. You may resume the stand. MR. BAKER: Page 58, interview with Mark Elliott, lines 9 through 13. You got that? MR. PETROCELLI: I don't have it, but proceed. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) (Reading.) Then I went in the house with him, I said, quote, 'I need a flashlight,' unquote, so we go into the kitchen area and I walk right behind him, kind of behind him, and he goes whoa, what's the time. Now, that's what you told Mark Elliott when you were trying to sell your story, correct? A. Correct. Q. You didn't lie to Mr. Elliott when you gave this interview on December 7 of 1994? A. I think those sounded like his words more. I think he was generalizing. I never walked into the kitchen area. Q. Well, let me show you what I'll represent to you is an official transcript of that taped interview and represent to you that the "K" is your words and the "E" is Mr. Elliott's words. And does that not indicate that you told him on a tape, quote, so we go into the kitchen and I -- I walk right behind him, kind of behind him, and then he goes whoa, what's the time. That's what you said, is it not, sir? A. I didn't say areas. It says kitchen area, go into the kitchen area. I didn't go into the kitchen. There's an area where the doorway is. Q. Mr. Kaelin -- A. Um-hum. Q. There is -- when you go into the kitchen, there is a foyer and there is a kitchen and there's a line of demarcation because there's a hall there, isn't there, sir? A. Yes, there is. Q. And if you go into the kitchen area, that means the area where the kitchen is and the kitchen nook, isn't that true, sir? A. Yes, it is. Q. And you told Mark Elliott on December 27, 1994 you went into the kitchen area with Mr. Simpson, right behind him or a little bit behind him, true? A. Right, never fully into the kitchen though. I wasn't in the kitchen. Q. If you're in the kitchen area, you're in the kitchen, fair enough, can we agree at least on that? A. Okay. Q. Thanks. Now, then, is it your testimony in this courtroom today, that after you left the kitchen, you then went out and then there was some deal about who picks up a duffel bag around the Bentley? A. Yes. Q. And how many times have you testified, Mr. Kaelin, before today, that when Mr. Simpson left the kitchen area, he stopped, talked to you and said "It's late, you set the alarm," and got right into the limo? How many times? A. I don't know. I don't think those are the exact words. Q. Well, you certainly testified that from the kitchen area Mr. Simpson talked to you about the alarm. You didn't testify to that this morning either, did you? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection, misstates the testimony. MR. BAKER: Let me go back and lay a foundation. A. Okay. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) When you testified here today, sir, you testified that after you, quote, didn't go into the kitchen and Mr. Simpson did go into the kitchen, you then walked out, there was a duffel bag or some bag behind the Bentley, you went to go get it. You of course didn't know whether he even wanted that bag when you attempted to go get it. MR. PETROCELLI: Objection, argumentative, it misstates the record, it's a speech. I think if Mr. Baker goes back and reviews the testimony -- MR. BAKER: I don't need a speech from you, Mr. Petrocelli. MR. PETROCELLI: Anyway, misstates the testimony. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) When you walked out of the kitchen, you didn't know if he wanted any bag because you had no conversation about any bag behind the Bentley, isn't that true, sir? A. True. Q. And you testified that after you -- both of you left the house, you started to walk over to the Bentley to pick up a bag, right, and he said, oh no, don't do that? A. He said that, yes. Q. And you have heretofore testified -- MR. BAKER: Can you bring that up. MR. PETROCELLI: Page and line, please. MR. P. BAKER: 19912. MR. PETROCELLI: Is this the trial testimony? MR. BAKER: It is. MR. PETROCELLI: One second, please. 199 what? MR. P. BAKER: 19912, line 15. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. (Transcript displayed.) MR. BAKER: Pull it up. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Question by Ms. Clark in the criminal trial was -- (Reading.) After you had the conversation about the alarm control panel, what happened next? Your answer: Hum, he got into the limo to catch the flight. That's what you testified to, was it not, sir? A. Right. Q. And you didn't testify to any attempt to get a duffel bag or anything else, did you? A. I thought I did. Somewhere in the trial it came up. Q. I see. And you didn't testify that the first time you knew the alarm wasn't set is when you got a telephone call from O.J. Simpson while you were on the phone to Rachel Ferrara, isn't that true? A. Correct, called me to set the alarm. Q. You testified here in the courtroom today that the first time you knew that you had the duty to set the alarm is when you got a phone call from Mr. Simpson, after you'd gone back to your room, isn't that true? A. Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Question is vague as to duty. He testified as to -- MR. BAKER: A request. MR. PETROCELLI: -- two conversations about the alarm. MR. BAKER: Well, I'm going to object. THE COURT: Sustained. There's no testimony that -- regarding beauty -- duty. MR. PETROCELLI: I don't know what that means. MR. BAKER: Request. Let me -- I apologize. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You testified, sir, in this courtroom today, that the first time Mr. Simpson made a request of you to set the alarm was after he had left in the limousine and you had walked back around the property and gone back to your room and you were on the phone with Rachel Ferrara and you got beeped in on your call waiting service, correct? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection, misstates the testimony. THE COURT: Overruled. A. No. THE COURT: That's not correct. You may tell him it's not correct. A. That's not correct. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And you testified in the criminal trial that as you were going out the front door, Mr. Simpson had requested of you to set the alarm, that he would call you on the telephone and tell you the alarm code number, got into the limo and left, true? A. Not true. Q. Now, you were awoken at approximately 6 a.m. on the morning of the 13th, somewhere around there. MR. PETROCELLI: All beyond the scope of direct. Object. All new area. THE COURT: Assuming you're going to finish today, Mr. Baker, I'll let you proceed. But if you're going to have him come back, then I will sustain it. MR. BAKER: Okay. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) We're going to finish today, Mr. Kaelin, okay? A. Okay. Q. Got it. Those are our marching orders. Now, 6 o'clock, you're awakened by banging on the door, correct? A. Approximately, right. Q. And when you gained consciousness, you go to the door, open the door, and there is Mark Fuhrman, true? A. Four officers. Mark Fuhrman was one of them. Q. Mark Fuhrman is the one that comes into your room, is he not? A. Yes. Q. And Mark Fuhrman is the one who interrogates you in your room, is he not? A. Yes. Q. Now, when that door opens and there are four police officers, they identify themselves, do they not, as police officers, correct? A. They did. Q. And your -- the very next words out of your mouth is, what's wrong, did O.J.'s plane go down, isn't that true, sir? A. I think I said that right away, yes. Q. And so you informed the officers that you knew the whereabouts of Mr. Simpson, at least in the initial phases, and that he had been on an airplane, correct? A. Correct. Q. Now, Mark Fuhrman then started to interrogate you about your whereabouts, did he not? A. Yes. Q. He also interrogated you about what you had on the night before, did he not? A. Correct. Q. And he asked you if you had been taking drugs or alcohol, didn't he? A. Correct. Q. And he then gave you a stigmas test, or something like that, where he takes his flashlight and looks in your eyes? A. It was either a pen light or flashlight, one of them. Q. That was a test, he explained to you, to see if you ingested any drugs? A. Something like that, yes. Q. Now, you told -- you were kind of frightened to see four police officers, weren't you? A. Yes. Q. And you told the police officers, in particular Mark Fuhrman, everything you knew about the whereabouts of Mr. Simpson, didn't you? MR. PETROCELLI: Going to object, it's irrelevant, irrelevant to any issue in the case. THE COURT: You may answer yes or no. A. I didn't -- I don't think I said everything, but I did say that I was very scared and talking rapidly. Q. And you told Mark Fuhrman that Mr. Simpson was on -- had caught the plane the night before, the redeye, to go to Chicago, didn't you? A. I might have said that to everybody, all four of them. Q. Then you also indicated to them that O.J. Simpson was scheduled to be in Chicago at an event for Hertz the following morning, did you not? A. I think I said he was at a Hertz event. I don't think I said what time it was scheduled. Q. Sure. Then you indicated that he had in fact, that is, Mr. Simpson, had an 11:45 flight out of LAX to Chicago O'Hare, or at least to Chicago, correct? A. Redeye, I think I said. Q. And you told them the time because you knew the time of 11:45 before anybody ever started banging on your door at 6 o'clock in the morning, correct? A. I don't remember that. Q. You did know the time because you had been concerned about Mr. Simpson's running a little late when you were talking to the limo driver, correct? A. I think I just said redeye. I'm not -- I think I just said a redeye flight. Q. Okay. And you indicated to -- well, strike that. After you -- the door is banged on, and the person that comes in your room is Mark Fuhrman, correct? A. I believe Phillips first, then Fuhrman. Then Fuhrman stayed with me while the rest were outside. Q. What happened was they asked you if anybody else was on the property to your knowledge, didn't they? A. They asked me first who I was and who lived here. Q. I understand. A. And if anybody else was on the property. Q. And you told them that Arnelle was on the property and she was in the guest room to the immediate east of you, correct? A. Right, I thought -- I said I thought Arnelle was there. So they knocked on her door. Q. You knew Arnelle was there, you heard her come in at 1:30 in the morning? A. I heard steps. Q. You thought it was Arnelle? A. Right, I thought it was Arnelle. Q. In fact you testified in one proceeding that you felt more comfortable, less frightened, after you heard the steps at 1:30 because at least now you knew Arnelle was on the property, right? A. Correct. Q. Okay. So then what happened, sir, is that all the police officers, with the exception of Mark Fuhrman, leave your room, isn't that true? And go to Arnelle's? A. I believe when Fuhrman was doing that, Phillips wasn't in the room but he was by that -- the ledge way on the cement. Q. And Phillips left too and went to Arnelle's area, did he not? A. I don't remember that for sure. Q. In any event, sir, the only person that interrogated you in your area -- area of your room was Mark Fuhrman, correct? A. Yes, when Fuhrman was in my room and I believe everyone was outside. Q. And he made you go get your shows to show him what kind of shoes you had on the night before? A. Shoes, pants, shirt, I believe. Q. Then he went in and -- he went into the bathroom area and looked into the bathroom area, did he not? A. I don't think so. I don't remember that. Q. You don't have a recollection of testifying to that before? A. I don't think so. Q. How long was Fuhrman in your room? A. Hum, between approximately minute to two minutes. Q. Two minutes to ask you the questions and to give the test? A. To do -- I was at the doorway while this was all happening. Q. He got into your room? A. He's in my room. Q. He inspected your clothes, did he not, true? A. I showed him, right. Q. And he looked around your room, did he not? A. I don't know for sure if he was walking around. But he definitely stood with me and gave me that test and talked to me. Q. And he definitely required you to get your boots that you had been wearing the night before so he could look at them, he definitely required you to get your pants? A. Um-hum. Q. And he definitely required you to get your shirt, isn't that true? A. Right. It was on that chair and then, photo, everything was laying right there. Q. And when he was asking about whether or not you used any drugs, he went into the bathroom, did he not? A. I don't think he did, no. Q. Now, in terms of your -- after you had been interrogated by Fuhrman, then there was a period of time that elapsed and the other officers came back down the concrete walkway with Arnelle, correct? A. Correct. Q. And they came down from Arnelle's room and walked -- I guess it's west, down here, picked you up and you all went into the house, true? A. True (indicating to Exhibit 116.) Q. And what door did you go into? A. We all went into this door. Q. Okay. And that's the door that you all went into, right? A. Correct. Q. And actually there was four officers and two of you, right? A. Correct. Q. Now, in terms of your particular conversation with Mark Fuhrman, you told him about the thumps, didn't you? A. I think I might have said that to him and -- I was saying everything so I imagine that must have been part of it too, yes. Q. Mr. Kaelin, you in fact told him exactly where they came from, did you not, where you thought they had come from? A. I think I told them I heard thumps behind my bed. Q. In fact, you testified in this courtroom today when I asked you questions, that they came right behind your bed, didn't you? A. Um-hum. Yes. Q. In fact, you testified on two other occasions they came behind, right near the air conditioner, which is a good five to six feet away, isn't that true? A. Just behind my bed. Q. Let me read from your grand jury testimony, page 69, line 5 through 8. MR. PETROCELLI: Hold on, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: May I? MR. PETROCELLI: What's the page number? MR. BAKER: 69. And then we'll go to the preliminary hearing at 105. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) (Reading.) Question: The area on the wall where you heard that thump -- those thumps, was that near to the air conditioning unit? Answer: Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Could you read the whole answer. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) (Reading.) Also, the picture moved. MR. BAKER: Preliminary hearing, 105, line 11. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) (Reading.) Question: Was it near the air conditioning unit that the thumps seemed to come from? Answer: Yes. Now, that was your testimony on June 20, 1994 and July 5, 1994, correct, sir? A. Correct. Q. And now it's five to six feet away behind where you were on the bed so that you could feel the vibration, right? A. Correct. Q. Now, Mr. Fuhrman was told about what you then believed the location of the thumps were and the fact that you felt that the thumps had occurred on the night -- early morning hours, rather, of June 13, 1994, true? A. If I told them that, I possibly had said it to them during the interview, yes. Q. You were trying to tell him everything that you thought would assist in any way, shape or form, the police, in what they were attempting to do, correct? A. Correct. I think I talked to Vannatter more in the bar area. Q. Now, you did of course -- now, the alarm -- you had actually gone around and set the alarm, right, when Mr. Simpson had called the prior evening? A. From the call waiting? Q. Yes, sir. A. Yes. Q. And you had dutifully set the alarm and watched the alarm indicator light change, right? A. Correct. Q. And your recollection is you just walked right in that back entrance, where there's no alarm pad and there's no lock? A. Arnelle was leading, and I think they -- she had a lot of keys on her. That's what I remember, her leading and all the officers following in with me. Q. Do you recall going out around the driveway and going in the front door on the morning of June 13 so that the alarm could be disalarmed? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. A. No. MR. PETROCELLI: Assumes facts not in evidence that that's the only way it could be disalarmed. THE COURT: Overruled. That's not the question. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, then, you're in the house in that bar area, and although you've been talking to Detective Fuhrman for a period of time in your room, you then were interrogated by Mr. Vannatter, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you remained in the bar area, which is that little semicircular in my rather archaic drawing on that exhibit, true? A. True. Q. And Arnelle and the other detectives, with the exception of Mark Fuhrman, were in the kitchen, correct? A. I was there with Vannatter. I didn't know everybody who was in the other room, but at periods I would go into the other one because I asked if I knew where keys were, but everybody was there together. Q. Your interrogation took place out here in the den area, and there's a dining room area that separates that den area from the kitchen area, correct? A. Correct. Q. And in that kitchen area is where -- when you were transported or moved from the den that's where you went to see the other detectives, correct? A. At that bar area. Q. From the bar area to the nook area? A. Yeah. I stayed -- when he interviewed me I sat at the bar stool facing him. I didn't -- I couldn't see into the kitchen. Q. And do you -- you don't know where Mark Fuhrman went when you entered the house, do you? A. I don't know. I can't answer that, no. Q. And when you went in and were looking for keys and that sort of thing, you saw a Detective Lange and Detective Phillips in the kitchen area, but you never saw Mark Fuhrman, did you? A. I don't know for sure. Q. Now, the interview -- that interview with Vannatter lasted about 20 minutes, did it not? A. I can't give you an exact time. I know there was an interview. I can't put a time on it. Q. And from 6 to 6 -- oh, well, strike that. You never saw Mark Fuhrman after he left you when you entered the house, the main house in Rockingham, isn't that true? A. I don't know for sure. Q. Now, I want to ask you a couple questions. After the interview that you had in the house with Vannatter and after the interview you had in your room with Fuhrman, you then gave a subsequent interview at 1:30 to Officers Carr and Tippin, that we've alluded to earlier today, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you went to the police station to give that one? A. Yes. Q. And that was a pretty formal proceeding, and you were aware that this was a serious matter because you had been transported from the house to the police station, correct? A. I knew something was up. I had never been in something like this before when I was in the room. Q. You indicated to Mr. Petrocelli when he was talking to you about being in the -- in the foyer/kitchen, when you were looking for a better flashlight, that you didn't see Mr. Simpson cut, right? A. Correct. Q. And I take it that in order to answer that question and not to mislead this jury you then had in fact looked at Mr. Simpson's hand or hands, true? MR. PETROCELLI: I'm going to object to the preamble of that question. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. PETROCELLI: Argumentative and improper. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you look at his hands? A. I don't believe so. Q. You mean you answered the question that you didn't know whether or not Mr. Simpson was cut, and you never looked at either of his hands? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. I didn't ask if he was cut, I asked if he saw blood. THE COURT: You may answer. A. That I did not see blood. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you see any evidence of cuts on Mr. Simpson's hands? MR. PETROCELLI: Lack of foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Not that I was aware of. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And it was approximately 11 o'clock on the night of June 12, correct? A. Approximately, yes. Q. Now, also, when you were asked by Mr. Petrocelli about this inspection that you and O.J. Simpson were going to do, he was going to go one way and you were going to go another way? A. Yes. Q. Remember that? Mr. Simpson had suggested to you if you were going to circle the house that you go to the south side and down the south side of the garage, right? A. I was going to go that way, he was going to go the other way. Q. So Mr. Simpson would have been directing you, had he known, to the exact area where the glove was purportedly found on the evening of June 12, 1994, correct? A. Well, he was just directing me to go one way and him the other way. We were going to end up in the back. Q. He directed you to go around this way to the area where the glove was purportedly found by Mark Fuhrman on June 13, 1994, true? A. Right around that way. Q. Now, the issue of the time period of the thumps, you had a conversation with Rachel Ferrara about that, did you not? A. Yes. Q. She testified that the time period of the thumps, when you told it to her, was 10:40, didn't she? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection, hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you have any conversations with her about whether she was going to be called? MR. PETROCELLI: I move that that be stricken from the record. THE COURT: Stricken. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you have any conversation with Rachel Ferrara that she was going to be called by the plaintiffs in this case? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection, irrelevant. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You have any conversation with Mr. Petrocelli whether or not he was going to call Rachel Ferrara to testify as to what time you told her on the telephone the thumps were? MR. PETROCELLI: Also irrelevant. THE COURT: Strike it as calling for hearsay. MR. BAKER: With Mr. Petrocelli, Your Honor? THE COURT: Yep. MR. BAKER: I think it goes to bias. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, did you review the testimony of Rachel Ferrara in terms of what time she said the thumps occurred at the criminal trial? A. No. Q. Have you had any conversation with her, you can answer this yes or no, since the criminal trial as to what time she believes you told her those thumps occurred? A. No. Q. And you've had numerous, numerous conversations with Mr. Petrocelli and members of his firm about what time those thumps occurred, right? A. Not numerous, no. Q. Well, how many, 20? A. No. Q. You talked -- A. The meetings I told you about in the beginning, that's the only time we had talks. Q. You talked to him for eight hours before you ever had your deposition taken, right? A. Yes. Q. And you consider yourself part of the plaintiffs' team, don't you? A. I don't think I'm on anybody's team. Q. You had lunch and breakfast with them, you've been over at their hotel, have you not? A. Yes. Q. You've been up in the suite, have you not? A. Yes. Q. You've never been one place for the defense have you, sir, not one? A. No. MR. BAKER: Thank you. MR. PETROCELLI: Should I begin, Your Honor? THE COURT: You've got to finish. MR. PETROCELLI: I can't finish in 10 minutes. THE COURT: Do the best you can. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Has Mr. Baker ever invited you to his hotel? A. No. MR. BAKER: I don't have a hotel. Q. Has he ever invited you to his office? A. No. Q. Has he ever called you? A. No. Q. Has any member of the defense team ever talked to you? A. No. Q. Have they ever called you to say we want to interview you to get to the truth? A. No. Q. Not once? A. No. Q. This bathroom window Mr. Baker just asked you about, does it have a screen on it? A. I believe so, yes. Q. Did you ever remove the screen? A. No. Q. You ever see it removed? A. No, I don't think so. Q. Was the screen on there June 12 and June 13, 1994? A. I believe so. Q. Now, Mr. Baker asked you questions about -- MR. PETROCELLI: Steve, put this on the Elmo. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) He asked you questions about what you told Mr. Shapiro when you were first interviewed about when you came back from McDonald's, and he said you told Mr. Shapiro you got back at 10 o'clock, remember that? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Could we have an exhibit, please. MR. PETROCELLI: It's the Shapiro interview, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: Can we have an exhibit. MR. PETROCELLI: Next in order, it's page 20, it's line 17. THE CLERK: 2200. MR. PETROCELLI: 2200, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: Thank you. MR. PETROCELLI: Can you put that on the Elmo. See if you can blow up that paragraph. (The instrument herein described as a page from a transcript was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2200.) Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) And you read what it says there. (Reading.) And I imagine the time that we got home was about 9:40, 9:45. Do you see that? A. Yes, I do. Q. Is that what you told Mr. Shapiro? A. Yes. Q. And how did you come up with those times? A. I was just going approximately. Q. Okay. And that was the next day, wasn't it, or two days later? A. Yes. Q. You gave the interview on the 14th of June? A. Yes. Q. Now, in fact, when we looked at your cell phone records, what was the time that you got back? A. The regular phone record, it was 9:37. Q. Okay. You were off five, ten minutes? A. Correct. Q. Now, let's go to the next page. You were asked what time you heard these noises, these infamous noises against the wall, right? A. Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: I think it's too tight, Steve. Can you back that up. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) These are O.J. Simpson's lawyers asking you, right? A. Correct. Q. The first lawyers really to ask you these questions, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. And you said the time now was about 10:40, 10:50. Did you tell them that? A. Yes, I did. Q. How did you come up with that time? A. I estimated again. Q. So you said 10:40, 10:50. Why did you give two numbers? A. Because I couldn't -- I had no watch on, I couldn't give an exact time. Q. Now, you were asked at the criminal trial about the length of time after you got -- after -- You were on the phone with Rachel Ferrara, correct? A. Correct. Q. And you hear the noises, right? A. Yes. Q. And you get off the phone and you testified today that -- How long a period of time was it from when you got off the phone -- from when you heard the noises until you got off the phone? A. About two to three minutes. Q. At the criminal trial, do you recall giving the following testimony? Page 19, 876, line 3. (Reading.) And what -- how long did you speak to her -- MS. BLUESTEIN: Can I have a moment to get the reference name? MR. PETROCELLI: Absolutely. Right here. 19876 criminal trial testimony. You got it? Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) (Reading.) And how long did you speak to her after you heard the thumps on the wall? Answer: You know, two to three minutes. Is that the testimony you gave? A. Yes, it is. Q. Okay. What is this -- let's look at the preliminary hearing page 106. MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Baker, line 25. MR. BAKER: Got it. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) (Reading.) Question: Now, you hung up the phone how long after you heard the thumps? Answer: About two to three minutes. Pretty -- Pretty fast I hung up the phone. Is that your testimony? A. Yes, it is. Q. Is that accurate? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Let's try one more. Grand jury, page 87. (Page displayed on Elmo.) MR. PETROCELLI: Can you fix that, Steven? MR. FOSTER: Yes. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) (Reading.) Question: How long after hearing the thumps did you -- MR. PETROCELLI: I can't read it. Got to back up a little bit. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) (Reading.) Did you hang up the phone? Answer: Five minutes after I heard the thumps. It was pretty fast. I mean, within one to five minutes. Is that an estimate you gave at that time? A. Yes, it is. Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that there was just a few minutes that elapsed from the time that you heard those noises until the time that you hung up the phone? A. No. Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that it was under a minute from the time that you got off the phone until the time that you saw that limousine driver? A. No. Q. When you were speaking with the officers on the morning of June 13, Detective Phillips, Vannatter, Lange and Fuhrman; do you recall Mr. Baker asking you some questions about that? A. Yes. Q. Did you tell them everything about Mr. Simpson's whereabouts between 9:30 and 11? A. I don't think so, no. Q. Did they ask you questions about Mr. Simpson's whereabouts between 9:30 and 11? A. It might have been with Vannatter. I'm not positive Q. But did you -- Did you tell them that you went and investigated the -- the area behind the south wall? A. No. Q. Did you tell Mark Fuhrman that you had investigated the area behind the south wall? A. No. Q. Did you tell anybody that you had gone back there to investigate? A. No. Q. When you were with Mr. Simpson on the evening of June 12, before he left to go to the airport, did you examine his hands? A. No. Q. Did you touch his hands? A. No. Q. Did you look at his fingers? A. No. Q. At any time did you see him take a tissue or a napkin or a towel and dab blood and throw it away? A. No. Q. Now, Mr. Baker showed you some testimony from prior proceedings where you said that you heard the thumps, quote, near -- end of quotes, near the air conditioner. Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. Do you believe that where you heard the thumps behind your head on the wall is near the air conditioner? A. Yes, I do. Q. By the way, Mr. Baker didn't ask you about this, but when you were in the Rockingham house in the morning with the police officers, after they spoke to you, they then exited out of the house, right? A. Correct. Q. Okay. And did they point out anything to you, that you should not step on as you were walking out the foyer? A. Yes. Q. What did they point out to you? A. There were blood drops. Q. Where were those blood drops? A. On the foyer floor. Q. What time was this? A. About approximately 7:30 I believe. Q. In the morning? A. Yes. Q. Baker showed you that exhibit that he didn't like where you went in the back of the house -- I'm not going to bother putting it up to save time. You know the one we're talking about? A. Right, the big one. Q. Where you and the officers and Arnelle went in that back door; you know what I'm talking about? A. Yes. Q. Do you know if there's a delay on that door such that when you open the door, the alarm doesn't go off because there's a delay, and you have to go to a keypad and deactivate the alarm? A. I don't know for sure. Q. Mr. Baker asked you some questions about the first time that Mr. Simpson had a conversation with you about setting the alarm. Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. Now, just to clarify this one point, when was the first time you had that conversation? A. It was when he was ready to leave for the airport. Q. And where did take conversation occur? A. By the doorway, outside. Q. Okay. So it was not on the telephone later on? A. No. Q. Okay. Now, when you were first interviewed, by the way, by the police, I mean you were pretty frightened? A. Yes. MR. BAKER: Objection, leading Your Honor. MR. PETROCELLI: I think this is foundation. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Baker elicited that you were scared, you were frightened, right? A. Yes. Q. Now, the police asked you very detailed questions like you were asked later on in depositions and -- I mean court proceedings? MR. BAKER: Leading. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did you answer the questions that were put to you? A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you withhold anything that they wanted to know, that they asked you about? A. No. Q. Okay. Mr. Baker showed you some notes that an officer took when he first interviewed you, and then he asked you questions about those notes. I'd I like to go over that. Now, you were interviewed by Tippin and Carr, right? A. Correct. Q. And this was in the police station? A. Yes. Q. And the detectives were asking you questions and taking notes, right? A. Yes. Q. Did they show you their notes at the end of their interview? A. No, I never saw those. Q. Did he say here, Mr. Kaelin, look at these, read them over, and swear by these -- MR. BAKER: I'm going to object. That's leading and argumentative. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. Did they show you the notes? A. No. Q. Did they ask you to review and approve the notes? A. No. Q. Did they ask you -- what did they -- Did you know what they wrote down in their notes? A. No. Q. Baker pointed in their notes that you did not see -- the officers wrote O.J. entered through the front. Now, they were talking about when you guys came back from McDonald's; do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. Now, Mr. Baker did not show you this document, which is a typewritten -- MR. BAKER: I'm going to object. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. PETROCELLI: Let me show you this document which you've not seen before this. Mr. Baker, this a typewritten transcript. MR. BAKER: I'm not going to take your representation for that for five seconds. MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, I'd like to mark this as exhibit next in order. THE COURT: Okay. I take it you're not going to finish today? MR. PETROCELLI: I'm actually just a few questions away unless there's going to be recross. THE COURT: All right. Show them where you're going to -- MR. PETROCELLI: 201. MR. BAKER: There's no foundation for this document with this witness. MR. PETROCELLI: Business record. MR. BAKER: Business record? MR. PETROCELLI: I seem to have heard that one before, Your Honor. MR. PETROCELLI: Let the record reflect this is a typewritten interview of Mr. Kaelin's interview, time, 6/13/94, at West LA Police Station, Officers Tippin and Carr. (The instrument herein described as A Typewritten Interview of Brian Kaelin on June 13, 1994 was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2201.) Q. Let me show you this interview that was typed up. Does that interview that was typed up say anything in there about your telling the officers that Mr. Simpson went into the house after McDonald's? A. I'm going to need time to read it. Q. Want to just look it over. MR. BAKER: If it doesn't, we'll take your representation of that, Mr. Petrocelli, to speed things up. A. No, I don't see it. Q. Okay. You won't see it if you read it carefully. MR. BAKER: We don't need your argument, Mr. Petrocelli. THE COURT: That's stricken. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Have you ever received any money for information about this case? A. No. Q. Have you ever been paid a dime for information about the facts of this case? A. No. Q. Have you ever been offered any money? A. Yes. Q. How much money have you been offered to talk about the facts of this case? MR. BAKER: Objection, relevance, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Between 500 to a million dollars. Q. And you turned it down? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, this book -- and by the way, was one of them an offer from "The National Enquirer" for $300,000? MR. BAKER: Objection, leading. THE COURT: Overruled. A. Yes. Q. Did you turn it down? A. Yes. Q. Now, this book that Mr. Baker was talking about, you sat for interviews for a book? A. Yes. Q. And you were going to write a book with a guy named Mark Elliott? A. Correct. Q. Did you go through with the book? A. No. Q. Did Elliott publish the book without your permission? A. Yes. Q. Are you suing him now? A. Yes. Q. And why didn't you go forward with this book? MR. BAKER: Objection, relevancy. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Does that book that is out have your endorsement or sponsorship or authority in any way? A. No. Q. Did you have the opinion that that book was too sensationalized? MR. BAKER: I object. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. PETROCELLI: That's it, Your Honor. MR. BAKER: Just very quickly, very quickly I got the look, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. Recross. RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER: Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, you told Mark Elliott in that interview, when you gave that interview, that you thought the pictures moved, the thumps occurred at 10:40, right, about 10:40? A. I possibly said about, yes. Q. And you then testified in the criminal trial that you remained on the phone with Rachel Ferrara for another two to three minutes. At approximately 10:43 to 10:44 is when you exited your room, correct? A. No. Q. Let me read you from page 19879, starting at line 9 through 20. (Reading.) Question: You indicated that you heard the thumps at 9:40 to 9:45? Answer: Not at that time, no, it was 10. Question: I'm sorry, 10:40 to 10:45. Thank you, sir. And you remained on the phone with Rachel Ferrara for another two to three minutes? Answer: Yes. So at approximately what time was it that you exited your room to go out to the pathway? Answer: So it was about two to three minutes after that time 10:43, 10:44. That's what you testified to at the criminal trial, correct, sir? A. That was an approximation, yes. Q. And by the way, you gave this interview, the one that has the handwritten notes from Officers Carr and Tippin, and they were writing things down as you were talking to them, weren't they? A. I think so, I'm not positive. Q. And were you aware in any of your conversations with Mr. Petrocelli, in preparation for this testimony in this courtroom, under penalty of perjury, that Mr. Tippin is now employed by them? MR. PETROCELLI: Objection, it's false and it's irrelevant. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: Pardon? THE COURT: Sustained. It's not relevant. It's not relevant insofar as this witness' state of mind is concerned. May be relevant otherwise, but not insofar as this witness's state of mind. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, on the 13th, when you were at Mr. Simpson's home, after you had come back from Grant Kramer's house and gone into Mr. Simpson's place, you recognized the cut on his finger, correct? A. The tissue, and there was blood seeping. Yes, I did. Q. You hadn't seen that at all when you were with Mr. Simpson in the foyer, you hadn't seen it out -- when the coach lights were on in the entranceway, and you hadn't seen it when you were in the kitchen, correct? A. I hadn't seen it. MR. BAKER: You want the last word? MR. PETROCELLI: The last word is I'd like to move 2200 and 2201 in evidence. (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2200 was received in evidence.) (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2201 was received in evidence.) MR. BAKER: 2198 and 2199 into evidence, as well. THE COURT: Received. (The instrument previously marked as Defendants' Exhibit 2198 was received in evidence.) (The instrument previously marked as Defendants' Exhibit 2199 was received in evidence.) MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you. THE COURT: You are excused. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you for your patience. THE COURT: Tomorrow, 8:30, ladies and gentlemen. (At 4:40 P.M. an adjournment was taken until Wednesday, November 20, 1996 at 8:30 A.M.) |