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REPORTER'S DAILY TRANSCRIPT SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA SHARON RUFO, ET AL., N/A, PLAINTIFFS, VS. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, ET AL., DEFENDANTS.
SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the THE COURT: Morning. JUROR: Good morning, Your Honor. THE COURT: Good morning. You may resume. MR. PETROCELLI: Good morning, Your Honor. THE CLERK: You are still under oath. Would you please state your name again for the record. THE WITNESS: Douglas W. Deedrick. DOUGLAS W. DEEDRICK, the witness on the stand at the time of the adjournment on DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. MEDVENE: Q. Agent Deedrick, yesterday we were speaking about hairs, in particular Mr. Did you have occasion to examine any head hairs found on a head band and two A. I did, yes. Q. And what was the nature of your examination? A. To examine for the presence of hairs, and also for fibers. Q. And did you examine -- did you find any hairs on the head band? A. Yes, I did. Q. Any hairs on each cap? A. Right; there were head hairs on each cap. Q. And did you make a determination whether those head hairs matched the known A. Yes. I did a comparison and I compared all of them. Q. What did you find? A. All the hairs from known standards, the question hairs, from the caps, from Q. Now, yesterday we spoke about hairs. And basically today I want to move to Can you tell us generally what a fiber is? A. Well, in general, the simplest definition is the smallest portion of a Q. And did you examine certain fiber evidence in connection with this matter? A. I did, yes. Q. And do you examine fibers in the same way you examine hair? A. Well, pretty much so. It's a microscopic examination, first to identify a I believe we use polarized light, microscopic -- little bit different, because To detect color, we use fluorescents, another microscope that allows you to Q. Now, yesterday, we were discussing Mr. Goldman's shirt and certain hairs you Did you find any fibers on Mr. Goldman's shirt that you analyzed to see if they A. I did, yes. Q. And what did you find in that regard? A. Well, the shirt was made of cotton, couple different colors. The pants were These known samples from his question -- his question items, his clothing were And I reached the conclusion regarding those, and that included the Bundy Q. Would you be good enough to put that on the chart, (Witness marks on Exhibit 2169.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did you have occasion to prepare a chart depicting the A. I did, yes. (Counsel displays item marked Known Cotton Fibers From Ron Goldman's shirt, Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) I've put on the easel what's been marked as 527. (The instrument herein referred to as Chart entitled Known Cotton Fibers From Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) And I ask you if you prepared that chart? A. I did. MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, may I? THE COURT: (Nods affirmatively.) (Mr. Leonard relocates his position in the courtroom.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did you take the photographs on the chart? A. I did. Q. Could you explain to the jury what the chart depicts? A. Well, the photographs at the top are the known cotton fibers from his shirt. The bottom six photographs represent fibers that were recovered from the items, Q. Are off-white cotton fibers fairly common? A. Very common. Q. If they're common, could you tell us, as a hair examiner, what significance, A. Well, it shows a link. It shows an association between these items and the You have to constantly remember that white cotton fibers are common. And I can Q. Did you find what appeared to be any substance on any of the fibers? A. Right. It appears to be blood. Q. And on which -- which particular pictures? A. Well, all of the question fibers, all of the question photographs at the Q. Did you find any other fibers on Mr. Goldman's shirt? A. Well, there are blue-jean fibers -- I didn't photograph them -- here that I believe all three of the question items that the white cotton fibers were (Counsel displays Exhibit 2169.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did you find any other fibers on Mr. Goldman's shirt that MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I'm just going to object because I think that THE COURT: Restate it. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did you examine any other fibers that you understood came MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for hearsay and/or speculation; lack of THE COURT: Overruled. Previous foundation having been laid by previous witness MR. MEDVENE: You may answer. THE WITNESS: Yeah. There were a couple other fiber types that were found on the Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Let's talk first about the cashmere fiber. Did you compare the cashmere fiber on Mr. Goldman's shirt with any of the other A. There was another cashmere fiber found on the -- on the Bundy hat. Q. And did you compare those fibers with each other? A. I did. Q. And what was the nature of the comparison? How did you go about doing it? A. Well, the comparison is microscopic. They were natural cashmere fibers of Q. Can you put on the board, then, for us the cashmere fiber from Mr. Goldman's (The witness complies.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Now, the cashmere fiber you found, did you examine any A. Well, they were the linings from the gloves. The linings from both the Q. Now, you mentioned that also on Mr. Goldman's shirt, you found certain A. That's right. Q. And did you find any blue-black fibers on any other items on the 2169 chart? MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I object again. It -- just so it's clear -- MR. MEDVENE: Excuse me. I don't think we should have speaking objections. MR. LEONARD: Object to lack of foundation as far as "found." I think that THE COURT: Sustained. Lay some foundation as to whether or not this was the one submitted by LAPD. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Can you tell us where the blue-black -- where you received A. Well, all the fibers he's referring to were received in debris packets. They Q. Did you, yourself, do some of the scraping on Mr. Goldman's shirt while you A. I did, yes. Q. And did you also tell us yesterday that you personally found, at the FBI A. That's right; I did. Q. Now, let's go back to the blue-black cotton fiber. Did you find blue-black cotton fibers that, in your opinion, matched the MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I object again. I assume that he did find them in the THE COURT: I'm tempted to overrule it because we're just going to make that Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Can you describe for us the blue-black cotton fibers that A. The blue-black cotton fibers were, again, as I said, taken from the debris The Rockingham glove, there was a debris packet and also socks from Rockingham. Those are, again, all debris packets that I received. From those packets, I removed blue-black cotton fibers and I did a comparison. Q. And did you find a blue-black cotton fiber in the debris packet of material A. Yes. Q. Did you -- A. I found a number of those. Q. Did you find blue-black cotton fiber or fibers from the debris packet you A. I did. Q. Did you find blue-black cotton fibers from the debris packet you examined A. I did, yes. Q. Now, did you then perform an examination to determine whether or not there A. Right. I did compare the fibers, as I said, that were taken from debris Q. And what method -- what method of examination did you use? A. Well, they were compared visually with comparison microscopes, just like -- They were then compared using fluorescents, as well as the color was compared Q. Would you put on the board, please, where you found blue-black cotton fibers (Witness marks Exhibit 2169.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Incidentally, did you find anything unusual about the MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Just where the bluish coloration was found; it was only found in a Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) And was that found on the band of the particular fibers A. All the fibers that I'm telling you here had that same bluish -- it's a Q. You find such a band on all blue-black cotton fibers you examine? A. No. Fibers are pretty different, one to the next, depending on the source. Q. When you say "a band," what do you mean, a band? How do you see it and what's it look like? A. Well, it's just change in color along the length. You're following it Q. Did you prepare a chart depicting the microscopic characteristics of the A. I did. Q. How many charts did you prepare? A. Well, there would have been two. Q. I'd ask you if you mind coming over to the board and telling us if 531 is A. Well, I can see from here that's one of them, yes. Q. Who took the pictures? A. I did. Q. And could you step down and describe for the jury the significance of the A. Well, all of these pictures relate this bluish-black cotton fiber that -- or The Rockingham glove, and Goldman shirt, and from the socks over on the right. I believe it's the same in both the first two rows of photographs. The bottom one here, that's just another fiber from the Rockingham glove, 323, There's other debris. When you take a photograph from a slide, you'll pick up Q. Did you find on Q23 at the bottom, anything else belonging to any of the A. Well, it's hairs. (The instrument herein referred to as bluish black cotton fiber association was A. (Continuing) This hair -- this would have been one of the hairs that matched Q. You said you prepared an additional chart? A. Right. I did add one other chart that had two photographs of the blue-black Q. Why did you prepare an additional chart? A. I was running out of room, for one thing, on the board. Q. We've placed on the easel a board that's been marked 532. (The instrument herein referred to as Known cotton fibers form Goldman Jeans; Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Can you tell us what that is? A. Well, 532 is a chart that gives you an idea of the differences here in The blue cotton fibers on the left, they're actually the known fibers from his This one was around the hair that was from Goldman's shirt. That was another one of the fibers that matched up with Nicole Brown Simpson. This is another fiber that was found. I think you can see this bluish Q. Did you compare the blue-black cotton fibers that you found on Mr. Goldman's A. No, I did not. I didn't have -- I wasn't supplied any -- either actual items Q. If you don't have a known sample to compare the question sample to, as an MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation; vague; calls for speculation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Well, it's significant. It's just another aspect of the work that The basic comparison would be one where you're comparing a known source of The other type of work that I would do would be to attempt to link individual And this is something that I do routinely, especially in cases involving serial Where we're looking at debris from different items, from different victims, Were all these victims in contact with the same suspect? Did they come in contact with the same types of fibers? So we do that all the time. So this is no different; it's just that we didn't In this particular case, I felt that I did with these cotton fibers. Q. You felt that you did? Why? A. Well, because of the -- matching characteristics of the blue-black cotton Q. And in your experience, could you tell -- can you tell whether, in your MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague; calls for speculation; lack of foundation. THE COURT: Overruled, subject to motion to strike. THE WITNESS: The presence of fibers on evidence like this is, it falls in line The fact that you find something on an item of clothing such as trace evidence, The reason for this is that fibers have been shown not to persist very long, In fact, the washing machine is a good example. Routinely, you're picking up MR. LEONARD: Move to strike. THE COURT: Motion denied. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) If a person was wearing two different articles of clothing, MR. LEONARD: Same objection. THE COURT: You want to try that one again? MR. MEDVENE: Yes. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) In your experience -- you told us yesterday about primary If a person is wearing two different articles of clothing, for example pants, MR. LEONARD: Same objection. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: That would be common; it wouldn't surprise me at all. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Is the finding of a blue-black cotton fiber on the socks MR. LEONARD: Calls for speculation; lack of foundation; vague. THE COURT: Hypothetically. Overruled. THE WITNESS: As a hypothetical, if those were his socks, it would be consistent Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Incidentally, could the blue-black cotton fiber found on In other words, would the socks contain, themselves, a blue-black cotton fiber? A. No, they didn't come from the socks. I analyzed the socks; they're different Q. Let me move, if I might, to get back to some other fibers that we're talking Focusing now on the fibers again, did you find any other fibers than you have A. I did. There were other fibers, yes. Q. Did you find any fibers that appear to be carpet fiber? A. I did, yes. Q. And what color would that be? A. Initially, I called them a rose-beige, appeared to have sort of a pinkish Q. You used the word Trilobal nylon. What is -- what does that mean? A. Carpet fibers are three-dimensional structures. They come in different I think I had a picture of it, I believe. MR. MEDVENE: Can you put up 530 (sic), please. (The instrument herein referred Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Does that help better describe it? A. Yes. Q. We put on the TV monitor, 530. I'm sorry. Go ahead. A. Yeah, that's the shape of it. That's the scanning electronic micrograph of I didn't play with jacks; the girls played with jacks. That's why I called it a jack cross-section. I remember seeing them. Q. That's Exhibit 516. Incidentally, it's on the -- that's on the board. And what is that picture of? What does it say on the board? A. Can I get up and read it? Do you want specifically what it is? Q. Yes. A. I can't read it. Q. Okay. Now, you said that you found certain -- (Exhibit is zoomed in on the TV screen.) MR. LEONARD: Can you read it now? THE WITNESS: It's much clearer now. Excellent. MR. MEDVENE: It is for me, too? THE WITNESS: '92 through '94 Bronco, 1405 nylon. 1405 is just the type of nylon that was produced. It's a DuPont fiber, made by Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Now, going back to where we were before we started Where did you find this kind of beige carpet fiber? On what items that are on A. That would have been on the Bundy hat and the Rockingham glove. I removed Q. You actually removed it yourself from the Bundy hat? A. I did. Q. And did you do an examination to determine whether or not the fiber -- the A. The fiber from the Bundy hat and the fiber from the debris packets from the Q. And tell us what kind of examination you did to determine whether or not A. Well, these are compared again, visually, microscopically. I compared them Q. Can you just go through a little bit, because I don't think we picked it up A. Well -- Q. Or permits you to see? A. Each -- each stage is just one point in the analysis. You're trying to You kind of have checkpoints that you use. One is comparison visually, using And then it might be fluorescents. You may use fluorescents; you may use Q. What does that mean? A. A polarizing microscope allows you to look at fibers in a different But you can also identify the fiber using the colors. That's the nylon or The infrared spectrometer will allow a further analysis as to the specific type If you reached the polarized light, I say they appear to be nylon Microscopic spectrometry is another microscope, and the microscope is connected What I see and what we all see is a reflection of light off an object. The But the color of what you see is not necessarily -- and is often not just one The same thing goes with fibers. They add a lot of different things. What the Q. Now, you said you looked at the fibers on the hat and glove and described Did you find any other fibers on any other items of evidence that you examined A. I did, yes. Q. And were those -- were those other carpet fibers? A. Well, yes, there were other carpet fibers taken from debris packets, from Q. And what were those three other items? A. There would have been a shovel; there was one fiber on a shovel debris; Q. Mr. Simpson's Bronco? A. That's right. Q. Now, did you compare the carpet fibers that you told us about found on the A. I did, yes. Q. And what kind of analysis or examination, comparison, did you do between A. The same. Same analysis each time. Q. And what conclusion did you reach? A. Well, in -- all of the fibers could have originated from the same source; Q. Now, at the time you compared carpet fibers, what you thought were carpet A. No; I had no carpet samples from any place at that time. Q. Did you subsequently acquire one? A. I did. Q. Why? Why did you want one? A. Well, because I found it, first of all, and I wanted to determine a possible I then asked for a carpet sample to be obtained from the Bronco, just to verify Q. You have five fibers that match and you want to find out now where they came A. That's the question. Q. Now, you said in looking at the fibers -- I think you said a moment ago, A. Well, the cross-section -- the color, I mean, there's a lot of colors. But Q. And did there come a time when you received a carpet sample or samples from A. Yes. Q. And you received that in Washington? A. That's right. Q. And when you received it, what did you do with it? That is, the carpet A. Well, the fibers were mounted to -- on glass microscope slides, and the Q. And what examination did you perform and how did you do it? A. I mean, again, I started with comparison microscope, polarized light, Q. And did you reach a conclusion whether the carpet fiber you found on the A. Well, they all matched. They all matched the known sample of carpet from Mr. Q. Could you put on the board for us, then -- we don't have the items for Mr. (Witness marks Exhibit 2169.) Q. Did you prepare a chart depicting the microscopic characteristics of the A. I did. (Witness displays Exhibit 530.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) I direct your attention to Exhibit 530, that has been (The instrument herein referred to as Series of photos on board entitled known Q. I ask you if you're familiar with that chart. A. I am. Q. How so? A. I had it made; I took the photographs. Q. Could you, if you wouldn't mind, go over to the chart and describe for the A. This chart represents photographs of the fibers under white light, by the And the center one here, center two photographs, both the K9, which would be This would be from the Rockingham glove debris packet. K14 that I just -- another one of the carpet samples that we got -- we had Q47 is the fiber from the knit cap debris, that's from what I removed. Q3c is from the debris. If you look close, you can see a lot in the microscope. The first thing that I saw was this little shadowy area right on the end. You So I had an idea that it had little lobed ends on each one of these trilobal Q. Can you point out if it shows on any of those what we're talking about when A. Okay. Trilobal, again, the configuration -- there's three lobes coming off a central Carpet fibers, they make a lot of them trilobal because they hide dirt very But this trilobal shape matched up with this trilobal shape as to configuration And I didn't really go into the production and all and how unique it may be, Q. And the jack cross-section, is that on any -- A. That's it. I mean, that's why you have to use your imagination a little bit, Here, we have this little knobby end. I thought that was unusual because I Q. The carpet fibers from the Bronco found on the Bundy hat and Rockingham In your opinion, as an expert doing this work for some 19 years, do you have an MR. LEONARD: Calls for speculation; lack of foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Well, it could have been -- again, it could have been either, Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) In other words, the glove and the hat, one point, were A. Right. Just like on the shovel and the towel and the plastic, same MR. LEONARD: Did you finish your answer? THE WITNESS: I thought I did. (Counsel displays 2169) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Could you indicate now on the board, because previously we A. (The witness complies.) Q. Is it reasonable to conclude, as a fiber expert with your years of MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Well, it's reasonable. It could have originated from a Bronco like MR. MEDVENE: I want to move to a slightly different area. THE COURT: Let's take a ten-minute recess. Ladies and gentlemen, don't talk about the case; don't form or express any (Recess.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, outside the presence of the THE COURT: The clerk told me Mr. Blasier had something he wanted to bring up MR. BLASIER: That was before the next witness, Your Honor. THE CLERK: I'm sorry. THE COURT: Okay. Bring the jury in. (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the THE COURT: You may resume. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Agent Deedrick, with respect to the Bronco carpet fiber we When you find a carpet fiber, for example, that you determine matches certain A. Sometimes I do, yes. Q. And how do you go about doing that? A. Well, depends upon the type of fiber that I find, as to its cross-sectional There are different carpet providers, carpet companies that make automobile I also have contacts with fiber producers. So it's a matter of contacting them. Q. To save time, cutting through everything you did, did you make a A. That would have been Masland, M-A-S-L-A-N-D Industries in Carlisle, Q. And under what arrangement did they do it, and for what vehicle? A. Well, they have an exclusive contract with Ford and they produce that Q. And an exclusive contract means what? A. Well, they're the only providers. The carpet would be unique as to dye Q. And the only producer to Ford of that carpet? A. For these vehicles, yes. Q. And you mentioned the dye formulation. The actual fibers are produced in A. Well, the fibers were produced by DuPont. And DuPont sells the yarn to Q. And between -- strike that. And did Ford, on the vehicles you described, have carpet in its vehicles in a A. There were four different colors, initially. They did change some of the MR. MEDVENE: Now, could you put on the TV monitor, please, 516. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Mr. Simpson's Bronco was what year, by the way? A. That was a '94. Q. And we put on 516. That I believe was up there before, but could you tell us MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I think that misstates the testimony. THE COURT: Want to correct that? MR. LEONARD: Then was there was an additional vehicle that the carpet was in? Q. Can you -- could you tell us the three -- can you tell us the vehicles A. Between -- between April -- I started in April of '92, this particular They used that particular color and carpet, the name medium mocha, between Q. During the particular time period 1992 to 1994, while they didn't change the A. They changed the dye formulation in May of '93, still called medium mocha, Q. And did you examine carpet samples before and after the dye change? A. Yes, I did. Q. And were you able to tell the difference? A. Yes, I was. Q. Now, you've told us, in referring to the 516, something about the carpet Did they produce a different kind of carpet or a different design or color or A. Well, in '91, they had -- I think they may have called it medium mocha; I'm I have a photograph of that. Q. Would you put on the board, please, 517. (The instrument herein referred to as Dupont Fiber No. 1850 was marked for Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Could you describe for us what 517 is? A. Well, 517 is the '91 Bronco fiber. And it was, again, a DuPont fiber. It's That's DuPont 1850. They switched to 1405 for the -- '92 through '94. It's a If you remember, that knobby end on the 1405 DuPont, 1850 is irregular and they Q. Now, starting in '95, certainly sometime after June of '94, did Masland MR. LEONARD: Objection. Relevance. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Do you know the type of fiber -- Strike that. Do you know the type of carpet utilized by Ford in 1995? MR. LEONARD: Objection. Relevance. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Going back, then to the April 1, '92, to July of '94 MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation. THE COURT: Lay a foundation. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did you examine the Bronco carpet fiber produced by Masland A. I don't know if I understand the question at all. Can you repeat it? Q. Sure. Did you examine the carpet, that carpet that Masland produced not Ford A. I did, yes. Q. And did you conduct an examination to determine whether the carpet in Mr. MR. LEONARD: Calls for speculation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: The fibers from O.J. Simpson's Bronco corresponded with the His vehicle was produced in October of '93. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) And how did you make a determination that the carpet in Mr. A. Well, it was from a microscopic comparison and also color comparisons, dye Q. Now, I want to now deal with the period from April of '92 to June of '94 Based on your communications with Masland, did you determine the total number (Counsel displays writing paper.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Based on your communications with Masland, were you able to A. Yes. Q. And what was that number? A. 136,000 vehicles. Q. Could you put that up on the board, please. A. Just write the number 136, or how would you want me to do it? Q. Well, why don't we put, just so it will be meaningful, because we'll be MR. GELBLUM: June '94. MR. MEDVENE: June '94. We ask that that be marked as next in order, Your Honor, which is, I believe, (The instrument herein referred to as Handwritten chart by Mr. Deedrick was Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Now, of this total number -- if you wouldn't mind standing A. 26,000. Q. All right. And the remainder were what kind of car? A. Well, it would have been F series trucks and Econoline vans. Q. Those were the only ones that had this kind of carpet, right? A. That's right. Q. Now, you've alluded to it, but during the -- the '92 to '94 period and the A. Right. In May of '93. Q. And what do we mean by a dye formulation change? Was the carpet still A. It was. Q. And what do we mean, "dye formulation?" A. Well, they just changed the chemicals that went into the vat when they dyed Q. Would a number of chemicals go into the batch that affect what the color is? A. Right. They had, I believe, four or five dyes that were used. And they weigh Q. That's unique to Masland 440 (sic)? A. Right. That's one dye batch. That's correct. Q. Now, given the fact that -- strike that. Let me step back. So 136,000 is the amount of vehicles with the medium mocha carpet between April Did you make a determination of that 136,000, how many were made after the dye A. I did. Q. And what was that determination? A. About 72,000 vehicles would have had the same type medium mocha, same dye Q. Can you put that up on the board. Now, would with that 72,000 number include Mr. Simpson's Bronco? A. His vehicle would have been included in that 72,000. Q. Now, how many Broncos of the type that Mr. Simpson had were produced between A. Well, about 14,000. MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I object. Relevance. Move to strike. THE COURT: What is the relevance of all of this? MR. MEDVENE: The relevance is to show -- MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I object to any speaking explanation in front of the THE COURT: I'll sustain it. I don't see any relevance. MR. MEDVENE: May we approach the bench? THE COURT: Okay. (The following proceedings were held at the bench, with the reporter.) MR. MEDVENE: This is, incidentally, our last area, Your Honor; be about five The relevance is that we would be able to show through this witness -- and That of the total number of Ford vehicles made during that period, we're able Step two is that the likelihood of encountering a Ford with the same kind of And the likelihood of encountering a Bronco with the same carpet at the time of So that's where the testimony's going. But the first step is, in terms of likelihood that if you, alone in LA County And the defense can certainly argue well, it could have been 374 other people; MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, this is raising what turns out to be an art form, and THE COURT: When am I going to learn? MR. LEONARD: You'll see when you finish with this witness. Raising to a level MR. BAKER: What he has done -- he hasn't said where the carpet -- THE COURT: You're submitting the first -- MR. BAKER: No, we don't need that for this. They've never excluded the fact THE COURT: I call to your attention a case called People versus One Gold MR. PETROCELLI: On what ground? THE COURT: On the ground that you can't prove these things by running numbers. MR. MEDVENE: I don't know that. THE COURT: You cannot. You know, that was a criminal case; they said you can't. MR. PETROCELLI: Doesn't it go to weight, Your Honor. THE COURT: The facts of the case were, is that a black guy with a white MR. MEDVENE: But wasn't that case -- I don't remember clearly, but I think I THE COURT: Just like yours. MR. MEDVENE: No, no it's different, if Your Honor please, because here we have Wait. I'm sorry. But we know we have carpet fiber found on items that Mr. Simpson had. There was THE COURT: Fine. So what do you need all this mumbo jumbo statistics for? MR. MEDVENE: Well, minimally, I assume I can get down to the rarity, that THE COURT: How many are registered to O.J. Simpson? MR. MEDVENE: One. THE COURT: How many of those -- MR. MEDVENE: It's registered to Hertz. THE COURT: Okay. And how many of those have his hair type, fibers, and how many of those are You know, your statistical analysis is meaningless when compared with the real MR. MEDVENE: Well, if I can't get in the probability -- THE COURT: These numbers give us -- these numbers give a plethora or a Under 352 of the Evidence Code, I'm going to find it means nothing; that the I think the prejudicial aspect of throwing numbers you have up on a board to a I think your probative value of the evidence is the essence of the evidence MR. MEDVENE: Your Honor, was the -- when you say putting evidence on the board, THE COURT: Means absolutely nothing. MR. MEDVENE: Are you saying the fact that there are only 375 Bronco vehicles THE COURT: Mr. Medvene what significance does that have in connection, when MR. MEDVENE: I understand that. I didn't want to leave anything off of the THE COURT: Well, this one -- MR. MEDVENE: -- unless you tell me I have to. THE COURT: Defense objects to it. And I see a more reasonable ground for MR. PETROCELLI: We are going to get into frequencies in the blood on DNA tests. THE COURT: That has a different scientific relevance. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. MR. MEDVENE: But -- THE COURT: Those are scientifically, statistically accepted in the community. I MR. PETROCELLI: Absolutely. THE COURT: All right. This means nothing. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. MR. MEDVENE: But -- THE COURT: This is a big waste of time. MR. MEDVENE: Well, isn't a statistical getting it to 375, Your Honor? In other words, if the probability is one thing, but the fact that only that THE COURT: What. MR. MEDVENE: Well, MR. LEONARD: Judge, they're triple-teaming me here. MR. KELLY: You're not even supposed to be here. Judge, if we elicited the testimony of the 375 and don't try to put it in MR. LEONARD: Oh yeah, that would be great. MR. KELLY: No, you're avoiding it. THE COURT: What's the relevance of 375? MR. KELLY: The same with the number of gloves ordered or anything else. It's If we use that and avoid all the different large numbers, I think it makes -- THE COURT: That's a pretty weak link. MR. KELLY: It's a link, nonetheless. THE COURT: The reason I'm going to sustain the objection is because the -- Take it up on appeal. MR. KELLY: Understand that, Judge. MR. MEDVENE: May I ask -- I don't want to do it in front of the jury if I can't THE COURT: I made my ruling. MR. MEDVENE: I understand; I'm not challenging you. THE COURT: Would you like to be part of this, Mr. Leonard, or you don't care? MR. LEONARD: No, I care. THE COURT: If you don't care, then I'll make a ruling without you. MR. LEONARD: I thought you made your ruling. THE COURT: I did. I'm trying to make a ruling. MR. MEDVENE: I'm just asking if I may ask this question. I don't want to ask it May I ask as the last question, based on your investigation, were the number of If they don't want to get into the number, have just that one question. MR. LEONARD: That leaves me at a disadvantage because then I have to MR. PETROCELLI: We don't want to leave it hanging. MR. MEDVENE: I don't want to leave it. They've left this area open. THE COURT: Those numbers are meaningless. MR. MEDVENE: Okay. I just want to get a question, because I've been kind of set I mean, it's not like any of these things were a secret, Dan, so ... no So I would just like to establish that there are relatively few Bronco vehicles It's up to you if you want to open it. MR. LEONARD: All right. Leave it on my plate. We've already got 72,000 vehicles MR. MEDVENE: It's unfair -- MR. LEONARD: No, it's not a setup. MR. MEDVENE: It's mis -- I didn't mean to use that, but to have up there, if We didn't try springing this on anybody; we've been over this before. I've MR. LEONARD: What do you mean "real number" `375. It has no significance to the MR. MEDVENE: That's another argument. The real number in the sense that's the MR. LEONARD: So what? THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection. (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Let me ask one more question, Agent Deedrick. Is it correct that, in your judgment, that the Bronco carpet found in Mr. MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: That's a different question to answer. I can only go by the carpet itself. As far as whether or not they used that Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) But, in terms of automotive vehicles that used, or had the MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Yes. It would have been limited to only those vehicles produced by MR. MEDVENE: Thank you very much, Agent Deedrick. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. LEONARD: Q. Good morning. A. Good morning. Let me set my stuff up so it doesn't fall down like it usually does. MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, we withdraw 2170. THE CLERK: It's withdrawn? MR. PETROCELLI: Withdraw it, yes. (The document previously marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2170 for identification was Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Mr. Deedrick, how much time have you spent preparing to A. Perhaps about two days' preparation for this trial. Q. Okay. And how much time have you -- so how many hours, approximately? Let me get some A. Seems like 48, but probably not that many. Q. Okay. And prior to the criminal trial, how much time did you put in, altogether? A. Well, I would have spent a lot of time from the day it came in, in August of I can't really tell you how many hours. Q. Do you remember testifying at the criminal trial that you had put in 100 to A. I don't remember, but that's a fair estimate, I would think. Q. This was an important case to you, wasn't it, sir? MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Vague; ambiguous; calls for conclusion. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: It's an important case, sure. Every case have you to testify on is important, every case you work. Q. Is it fair to say that you've spent more time on this case than on any other MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. Does he mean civil or criminal? MR. LEONARD: Either. MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. They're different cases. Compound. THE COURT: Overruled. Let's get on with the preliminaries. A. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I've worked some big cases. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) You have given some opinions here. And would you agree with Would you agree with that? A. As best I can, yes; I would agree. Q. Would you agree that it's important that you don't get emotionally involved A. I don't believe you should; I should try to maintain a detached Q. Well, it's important to be objective, correct? A. During your analysis, during your interpretation, yes. Q. And during your testimony, as well, correct? A. Well, testimony should follow the interpretation of the results. Q. And it's important to be impartial, correct? A. Yes. Q. And would you agree with the following proposition; that if there is any A. Any question about the results? It all depends on what those results are. I Q. Do you remember testifying at the criminal trial that -- and saying that if A. I don't recall what reference you're referring to. There's a lot of Q. As you sat on the stand today, did you feel like you explained fully, A. It's not all the findings. MR. MEDVENE: Objection. That's vague and ambiguous, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Well, there are a lot of findings in this case. What I testified to today and yesterday is based on questions directed at me, Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Did you feel that you gave this jury an accurate Do you feel you gave them an accurate representation of what you do when you do A. I don't know if we got into all of that. Q. Do you feel that you gave the jury an accurate and fair description of In other words, that you gave them all of the conclusions or all of the MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. Conclusion; speculation; vague. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Why is it important to you to be objective? A. Why? Q. Yeah. A. Well, to give an accurate representation of your findings, based on your Q. It's also important, isn't it, because what you do here is basically A. Well, it's mainly identification, and there is some interpretation also Q. Well it's -- it's very subjective, what you do, correct? A. It is subjective, yes. Q. And because basically what you do is, you look at various items A. Well, that's one of the stages. The first stage is the microscopic comparison. And it's a determination by me, Q. And unlike fingerprint analysis, which is more of an absolute science -- you A. Its been recognized by the Court as a positive form of identification, yes. Q. Unlike fingerprint analysis, you do not have a set number -- THE COURT: You know, Mr. Leonard -- MR. LEONARD: Yes, Your Honor? THE COURT: It's really annoying to have somebody stand behind you and talk over When you conduct your inquiry, I would ask you to do the same. MR. LEONARD: I will remain stationary. THE COURT: You don't have to remain stationary; just don't get behind the MR. LEONARD: There's not much room back here, but... Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Do you remember my last question? Because I don't. A. No; you were talking about subjectivity. Q. Yeah, I was comparing fingerprint analysis with what you do. And in fingerprint analysis, there is a standard number of -- what do you call A. Well, they're reference points that they use. Also, they have a pattern. There are a number of different patterns of There's also characteristics on each pattern that can individualize that A lot of my field; I have some training in that. Q. Based on that training, you know there have to be a certain number of A. I don't know about that certain number. I think that depends on what Q. But would you agree in the technique that you use, there is no minimum A. Right; there is no set number. Q. Although in the field, that has been suggested as something that should be A. I don't believe by hair examiners. Q. Are you familiar with publications in your field that talk about checklists A. Well, I'm familiar with checklists and different attempts to establish a Q. You used the checklist when you started out, correct. A. When I started out. I think everybody likes to start out with checklists. Q. And there are still examiners in your office that continue to use the MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Relevance, materiality, Your Honor. THE COURT: I'm going have to use a rope. (Indicating to Mr. Leonard.) (Laughter.) MR. LEONARD: It's a bad habit. THE COURT: Well, just do the best you can. MR. LEONARD: I'll try. THE COURT: Consider the person you're standing behind. THE COURT: Okay. THE WITNESS: I don't know if anybody else uses it. There may be one or two that I don't recall seeing them. I review all their work, and I don't think anybody Q. How much time did you spend with Mr. Medvene or the other lawyers before You mentioned that you had prepared for two days. How much time did you A. Probably 15 -- 15 hours, maybe. Q. Okay. And Mr. Medvene had a typed list of questions and answers. Did you go A. At times, yes; I reviewed some of it. Q. Okay. So you sort of rehearsed your testimony; is that fair to say? A. Well, he had questions that he was asking me, and I was answering those Q. Questions and answers, correct? A. If he typed up the answers. He may have. Q. Did you spend any time with Mr. Goldman yesterday? A. I spoke with him briefly, yes. Q. Did you develop any kind of a personal relationship with Mr. Goldman during MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Vague, speculative, Your Honor; not relevant. MR. LEONARD: Goes to bias, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't say it was a special relationship. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) I didn't say special; I said personal. A. Personal, special. No; just seems like a nice man. Q. Do you -- is your room at headquarters -- you have room 3931; is that your A. 3931. Q. Okay. Do you have a framed photograph of yourself with Fred Goldman and Kim A. I do. I don't remember you ever being in the office, but I do. Q. How many other victims of crimes or family members of victims of crimes do A. I don't believe I have any. Q. Now, when you were testifying on direct examination for several hours, is And let me be a little more specific about that. For instance, you were asked about primary transfers and secondary transfers A. I do, yes. Q. Okay. And my memory is that with regard to one of the Negroid-type head MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Misstates the testimony. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Did you say that, sir? A. I think I said it could have been both, if I remember correctly. Q. And when you said both, what did you mean by that, in real terms? In other words, a primary contact, contact would be somehow with the head of an A. Right; that would be a primary transfer. Q. And a secondary transfer would be what, because I don't remember you A. Well, secondary could be -- and I believe I did, a hair found on the Q. Oh, you did say that; now I remember. Is there -- isn't there another way that a secondary transfer could occur? A. Oh, well, secondary transfers can occur a lot of ways. It could come from Q. For instance, that hair could have been on the ground, right? A. That's a source; that's right. Q. And it could have come into contact with Mr. Goldman's shirt when he fell to A. It's possible. Q. Just -- it's just as likely as any kind of primary; wouldn't you agree with MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Foundation, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I'm not really sure. I assume it is possible, maybe equally as Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Well, you're at a little disadvantage with regard to the A. I wasn't there, and I don't know a lot of the circumstances. Q. You don't even know where the hair was found on the shirt, do you? A. Well, no, I don't. Q. Is there any reason that you didn't tell the jury about that form of MR. MEDVENE: He's arguing, Your Honor, and he can only answer the questions we THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: There was no reason. I was trying to be responsive to the Q. Well, you say there was no reason. When you were sitting on the stand on direct examination and you were asked an Didn't you think that was important? A. I think sometimes, many kinds -- like fiber transfers and hair transfers are But hair can be transferred through contact, as I mentioned, between a person Q. You just forgot about that? MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. He said that -- he said that in his answer Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) By the way, with regard to that, what you called a Negroid A. It was a hair fragment, yes. Q. Isn't that much more difficult to try to compare than a full head -- a full Wouldn't you agree with that? A. Well, it's less to compare; it's not more difficult to compare. But there's Q. And your conclusion is much less reliable; isn't that true, sir? A. No, I don't believe so. Q. Do you remember testifying in a case in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania some A. I do remember the Wilkes-Barre case. Q. Do you remember my associate, Anthony Cardinali, asking you some questions Do you remember that? A. I don't. Q. Would it surprise you to learn that in that trial -- MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. It's about to be a speech. Before the MR. LEONARD: I'm probing his memory. MR. MEDVENE: He won't know if what you're saying is accurate. Let's see the basis. MR. LEONARD: I'm gauging this witness's memory. I have every right to do that. THE COURT: Not on something that's collaborative. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Would you agree with me, sir, that the ideal is to have a A. Right. The more hair you have, obviously, the -- it affects your Q. By the way, what you do in interpreting what you see and in trying to opine A. No, I wouldn't agree with that. Q. You are -- have you ever testified under oath, sir, that it was a form of A. I probably have used that terminology, it is a form of art. Q. Okay. So when you just said a minute ago, I don't agree with that, that it's not a A. No. I think that was I was trying to answer your question as accurately as And it is both objective -- it is both scientific and it is an -- it's a Q. It's a form of -- THE COURT: Just a minute. Jurors, ten minutes. Bring the jury back in ten minutes. (Recess taken at 11:02 A.M.) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the MR. LEONARD: May I approach? THE COURT: You may. Do you have -- you have one. (Indicating to pen.) Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Before we get to the subjective versus objective issue, I Who's paying you for giving your testimony today? A. You are; I am. Q. The jury is? A. Everybody is. Q. Judge Fujisaki? A. Taxpayers. Q. And that's another reason why you want to be as objective and fair and A. I guess that's down there somewhere, yes. Q. Because we are all paying you? A. That's all part of it, sure. Q. Now, it's relatively unusual for you to become involved in a civil trial, A. Yes. Q. You had to get special permission to do that, didn't you? A. Yes. Q. Now, we were talking about the fact that, as you've acknowledged, that your Would you agree with that? A. Experience and art is involved, yes. Q. Okay. And it involves subjective analysis by you, correct? MR. MEDVENE: Asked and answered, Your Honor. THE COURT: Let's -- MR. LEONARD: Foundational. THE COURT: We spent ten minutes on it before the break. MR. LEONARD: I'm sorry. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) And the reason it's subjective is -- well, among the A. Right. Q. And you're comparing them with other hairs or other fibers, for that matter, A. Right. Q. And you know that even on an individual's head, many of the hairs can be A. That's right. Q. They have different characteristics? A. That's right. Q. And then, even along a single hair, the characteristics can change, correct? A. That's correct. Q. So that, for instance, there is no catalogs of hairs that you know of, There's no place that you can go that gives you standard -- standards for hairs A. Not that I know of. Q. And there's no data that tells you how many other people in the world have A. There is none, no. Q. So you don't know whether a million people in the world have the same hair, A. Right. I couldn't give you a number. Q. And the most you can say with regard to hair and fiber -- and you've A. That's right. Q. It's not a positive meaning of identification by any stretch, is it? A. It's not positive. We say that in every report. Q. Okay. So that when you put your conclusions up here on this board, it would be fair A. Right. Each of those is a "could have," yes. Q. Please go over to there, to the board, and on the acetate overlay, would you A. Well -- MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. It's an argumentative thing to ask him to Mr. Leonard can write "could have" with a question mark, if that's what he MR. LEONARD: They've had the opportunity to have this board in front of the THE COURT: You may. MR. LEONARD: Thank you. THE WITNESS: Which? Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Just -- there's an acetate overlay, just somewhere where A. You want the words "could have?" Q. "Could have," with a question mark. A. Question mark. Q. A little larger, please. THE COURT: You said you didn't want it to interfere with what's on there. MR. PETROCELLI: He can do it himself. THE COURT: Why don't you go over there and show him exactly where you want it. THE WITNESS: I want you to be happy. MR. LEONARD: Yeah, I know; you're here for me. Right here, in filling those two squares, "could have." THE WITNESS: You want it in the square? MR. LEONARD: Yeah, filling the two squares. MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please -- THE COURT: I don't know what you're doing. MR. MEDVENE: It a show by Mr. Leonard. I can write whatever he wants on the board. THE COURT: You want it in every square? MR. LEONARD: That's good enough. That's fine. Can we mark that next -- whatever the next exhibit number is. THE COURT: Mark what? MR. LEONARD: The overlay. THE CLERK: 2171. (The Chart created by Mr. Deedrick, formerly marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2169, MR. LEONARD: You can resume the stand. (Witness complies.) Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) How many hairs on an individual's head, sir? A. Depends on the person, but I've heard 100,000. Q. How many people on the earth? MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please ... THE COURT: Sustain my own objection to it. This is getting a little ridiculous. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) A lot of hairs out there; would you agree? A. There's a lot of hairs. Q. Lot of fibers? A. There are. Q. We're virtually swimming in hairs and fibers as we walk through our daily A. Well, we are in a way, yes. Q. And as we swim through these hairs and fibers, we pick some up along here, A. That's right. Q. Like little garbage collectors? A. Yeah, little pig pens, I think. Q. Okay. So if a person frequents a particular location -- Okay, you follow me so far? A. I follow you. Q. Isn't it likely that that person is going to drop fibers occasionally, and A. Yes. Q. -- from other places? A. Right, could. Q. From a car, right? From his or her own head? A. Correct. Q. Right? A. That's right. Q. Okay. And, of course, you had -- you had all that in mind when you were giving your A. Sure. Q. Okay. And you would agree that virtually all of the items and all of the fibers and You agree with that; it could have been there before this crime ever occurred? MR. MEDVENE: Objection. That calls for speculation; foundation, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: No, I couldn't agree with that. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Do you have any information about how often Mr. Simpson was A. No, I don't. Q. Why not? THE COURT: I'll sustain my own objection to that. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Was that important to you, sir, in rendering your opinions A. It has a bearing on the weight of the findings. Q. Explain that. How does it have a bearing on the weight of your findings? A. Well, in some situations, especially when you have family members, close Q. But you, as you sit here today, you have no idea how many times Mr. Simpson, MR. MEDVENE: Asked and answered, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) You have no idea how many times the Bronco was used to A. I don't. Q. Did you ever ask anyone about that? MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Relevance. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Does that have any bearing on your opinions in this case? MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Relevance. Same objection. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I understand the question. What findings? Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) You talk about crime area transfers and secondary Does that have any bearing at all? A. Well, it might in some ways, yes. Just depends how far you want to stretch Q. Well, did you ask anyone about that information, if it might have some Did you ever ask anyone? A. Well, I accepted the fact that there was a possibility of transfer that the But I didn't. I didn't know that. I mean, I expected to find her hair in the Q. Did you consider the possibility that the fiber from the Bronco that you say Did you think about that at all, sir? MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Speculative and use of the word "possibility." MR. LEONARD: He used it in every answer. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. MEDVENE: I don't believe so. THE COURT: I think I overruled the objection. MR. LEONARD: Thank you. THE COURT: So let's stop the speeches and get on with the case. MR. LEONARD: Can you answer the question? THE WITNESS: I can. I -- Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Yes or no? A. Well, let's go over that question again. Q. Did you consider the possibility that the Bronco, the fiber that you've Did you consider that at all? Yes or no? A. Yes, that's a possibility. Q. It's an equal possibility with the others that you've spun out for the jury; MR. MEDVENE: Argumentative, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. LEONARD: You can answer the question. THE WITNESS: With what other evidence? Just, I mean, you're throwing everything I don't suspect that would be as logical if it was just laying on the surface Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Can you pick up your notes, please. Do you have your notes with you? A. I do. Q. Show me in your notes, sir, anywhere where you've indicated that you found MR. LEONARD: We'll mark these next. THE CLERK: Are they already marked? MR. P. BAKER: No. THE WITNESS: No. THE CLERK: 2172. (The instrument herein referred to as Mr. Deedrick's Notes was marked for THE WITNESS: I didn't indicate that from the notes. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Thank you. Now, you did consider -- so we get back on track, you did consider the That is the existing background of debris, hairs and fibers, you considered A. That was a consideration, sure. Q. And it was -- it's equally as likely that that's how the hairs and fibers A. No, I can't agree with that. Q. Don't agree with that? A. Doesn't -- it is not logical to me. Q. Okay. And you don't -- and in coming to that conclusion, you don't even know where A. No. That was from a debris scraping, if I remember correctly. Q. You don't know where it was on the shirt, do you, sir? A. No. Inside or outside, I don't know. Q. Okay. And you don't know where the Bronco fiber was on the Rockingham glove, do you? A. No, I don't. Q. In fact, the Rockingham glove was in a bag, correct? A. I got a debris pack, I believe. Q. And on the debris pack, did it not indicate that the Bronco fiber from the Didn't it say that, sir? You can check your notes if you need to. A. That's right; it was. Q. So you have no idea where that was on the glove, do you? A. No. Q. And there's no indication of -- by the way, of any blood on that fiber, is A. I don't recall. No, I don't recall any blood. Q. You would have written it down if there was, wouldn't you? A. Well, there was an awful lot of blood. I may have; I may not have. But I I don't recall any blood on that fiber. Q. Your best memory is there wasn't any? A. I think I said that, yes. Q. Now, your analysis, in general, is so subjective that you don't even bother A. I don't write everything down, no. Q. Well, you didn't write anything down here about what you actually observed A. No. That's not what I routinely do. I don't routinely do that, nor does Q. Okay. And you also know that hair and fiber experts often differ about their MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. He's not talking about this case. It's THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I don't know if I understand what you mean by "often." I just Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) It happens, doesn't it? A. Oh, it happens, sure. Q. It happens a lot, doesn't it? A. I can't answer that. I don't know what "a lot" is. Q. You can't answer that? A. Doesn't happen a lot in our laboratory. But I mean, I can't account for Q. Well, your laboratory has got quite a record with regard to proficiency A. I don't know what that means exactly. Q. Well, since 1986, every single examiner who has been tested has gotten 100 A. All on the fiber and hair proficiency. Q. Got 100 percent? A. Right, got the right answer. Q. And those are -- strike that. There was something else that was found in the knit cap, the Bundy knit hat, A. There was other material found, yes. Q. There was a lot of material found? A. There were other fibers, yes. Q. There were a number -- and by the way, there are a number of fibers and A. That's right. Q. That's normal, right? A. It's not unusual to find a lot of debris on a lot of items. Q. Sure. Because everywhere we walk, everywhere we go, everywhere we happen to A. Well, depends on the surface, depends on the contact. We go through life Q. And for instance, there were various kinds of dog and cat hairs that were A. That's right. Q. And did you conclude that those found their way onto these items by way of MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Compound number of items he's going to; and it's not THE COURT: I'll overrule it. It is rather compound. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) You understand it? A. Yes. Well, we didn't talk. MR. MEDVENE: Excuse me. The nature of the objection is compound. You sustained You should ask a new question. THE COURT: I guess he just wants to make you ask that question again. MR. LEONARD: He's trying to cramp my style, I think. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) On many of these items -- you understand that part? A. Right; I understand that. Q. Okay. There were cat hairs, right? A. Right. Q. Some of the items had dog hairs on them? A. Right. Mostly dog hairs. Mostly dog hairs. Q. And some cat hairs? A. If I remember right, yes. Q. Did you know, by the way, that there hadn't been a cat at that apartment -- A. No. Q. That doesn't surprise you, though, that there still would be cat hairs A. Well, I don't know if you can say that they're from that cat, necessarily. I mean, I'm sure cats jump over fences. There's probably a lot of cats in the Q. Now, inside -- according to the LAPD, anyway -- inside the knit cap, there A. There were, yes. Q. And they were dissimilar to everyone that was involved in the case, at least A. Right. That's right. Q. And is there any particular reason you didn't put that up on the board in MR. MEDVENE: Argumentative, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. It wasn't asked. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Did you discuss that with Mr. Medvene prior to your Did you tell him that there were Negroid head hairs in the knit cap that were A. Yes, he was aware of that. Q. Okay. He didn't ask you that question? MR. MEDVENE: It's argumentative. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. LEONARD: I'll withdraw it. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) And those, according to the record, were found inside the You can check your record. A. Yeah, I believe that's correct. Let me check. That's right. There were some. Q. Now, as far as the Bronco fiber goes, there was a single fiber that was A. Right. I think it's from the bag, if I remember. Q. Right. Now -- and there was also a single fiber which you say came from the A. Right. Q. You don't know whether that was on the Bundy hat, do you? A. No. Q. In fact, it was only discovered by you after the Bundy hat had been examined A. I'm not sure what you mean. How many times it may have been examined prior Q. Didn't you get -- before you ever examined the knit cap, didn't you get a A. Right. It was examined. I don't know how many times it may have been Q. Okay. And the way you found that -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- is that you took And by the way, that was the only actual piece of evidence, as opposed to A. That's right. Q. At least at that time? A. Right. Q. You took the knit cap and you took it into what, a separate room from the A. Right. Q. And you -- what, do you spread some kind of paper on the floor? A. On a table. Q. On a table. And you used some kind of device to scrape the knit cap? A. Spatula, large spatula. Q. And then you examined the debris that resulted or what came down from the A. Right. Q. And you found a single Bronco fiber, correct? A. Well, I don't -- I found a single fiber that could have originated from a Q. Right? A. Right. Q. And you could barely see that; is that fair to say? You could barely see that with the naked eye? A. Right. Right. It's a small piece. You can hardly see those fibers because of Q. Right. And by the way, when you say "likeness," you're talking about color, right? A. Color. Q. They're also light; in the physical sense, they can literally float around, A. Well, they're probably one of the heavier fibers. If you're assuming that Q. They move very easily from place to place; they get on people and people can A. Well, that's why we look at clothing items as evidence, because of that. Q. Prior to -- and this was the last thing, according to your notes, that you A. Right. Q. And if you would turn to the last page of your notes, please. Actually, it's not; it's the second-to-last page. (Witness complies.) A. Oh, this thing here. Q. Yeah, the typewritten notes. What exhibit number are the typewritten notes, please? THE CLERK: The notes of Mr. Deedrick? MR. BAKER: 2172? THE CLERK: Correct. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Got that? A. I do. (Witness reviews notes.) Q. You have Q47? Is that the knit cap? A. That's right. Q. It says general scraping, right? A. That's right. Q. Now, prior to this, there had been an examination of what you -- what you A. That's right; that's where they told me it came from. Q. Okay. And on those particular items, there was also a single Bronco fiber A. That's right. Q. Now, by the way, there was never any blood found on any of those items, A. I don't know. Q. And the shovel, that was kind of a mucking shovel; it had a square nose to Did you ever see the shovel? A. I saw a picture? I think it did have a square end to it. Q. Okay. And you know that the plastic was something that actually came with the Bronco, Remember hearing that? A. I remember hearing that. Q. In any event, that was the sequence, correct? A. Right. Q. Now, you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that hairs and fibers can be A. Yes. Q. Okay. And, in fact. You try to take the precautions to avoid that, don't you? A. We do. Q. In fact, don't you sometimes pluck your own hair out and make sure your hair A. We've done that, yes. Q. It's something you do, right? A. Yes. Q. So you would agree with me that it is certainly possible that hairs and MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor? Anything is possible. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I would -- again, I don't -- maybe -- let's go over that question MR. LEONARD: Yeah. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) You told me that you take precautions, if you can, to avoid A. Right. Q. And you do that because you know it's possible that that can occur, correct? A. Right. Q. Otherwise, you wouldn't take the precautions? A. We don't want to contaminate; that's correct. Q. But it's possible for that to happen? A. It's possible. Anything is not possible, but that's possible. Q. Now, you have attempted to be, again, as fair and objective and up front, MR. MEDVENE: Asked and answered, Your Honor, several times. MR. LEONARD: Withdrawn. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) You mentioned early on in your direct examination that you A. I do. Q. And you said that. And when you said that, you intended to convey to this That's what you wanted to tell this jury? MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Relevance. THE COURT: Sustain the objection as to the form of the question. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Did you intend, when you said that you had testified in A. No, it wasn't my intention. Q. And you didn't because you know that your testimony has been excluded, and A. In Oklahoma, right. That's the only time. Q. And that was the Chief Judge of the Federal District Court there, right? MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Collateral. THE COURT: Sustained. This is this court, and this court is admitting it. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Now, you would agree with me, sir, would you not, that for A. I don't know if I would agree with equally plausible, but secondary MR. LEONARD: I don't have any further questions. THE COURT: Anything further? MR. MEDVENE: Yes, Your Honor. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MEDVENE: Q. You said that the -- that one of Mr. Simpson's head hairs, I believe, that A. That's right. There were several, I guess, if you look at all the evidence. Q. And was one that was a fragment found on Mr. Goldman's shirt? A. Right. That's right. Q. And did you feel you had an adequate sample to examine against Mr. Simpson's A. I did. Q. I'd ask that you put on the board what you have as No. 38, K7, Mr. Simpson's MR. GELBLUM: On the screen or... MR. MEDVENE: I'm sorry, on the TV monitor. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) And would you put the fragment, which is Q23, the hair MR. LEONARD: Asked and answered. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. All right. Now, let's do it again so we can all see it. Mr. Leonard asked you if there was enough to analyze, to say it matched or had Let's first put up the known Hair of Mr. Simpson, the hair we knew came from And let's run over it, Q23, which is the fragment. (Mr. Foster complies.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) And can you explain to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury A. Well, you've already gone through that. I think it was pretty visible on one MR. LEONARD: I object. This is asked and answered. THE COURT: You raised a fragment issue. I'm going to allow examination. What exhibits are we looking at? We've got two numbers. Are these exhibits court exhibit numbers? MR. MEDVENE: Yes, Your Honor. They're on the board. THE COURT: Well, they're not on the board. You're showing them on the screen MR. PETROCELLI: We'll need new numbers for those on the television, Your Honor. THE CLERK: 2173 is next in order. MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. THE COURT: There are two exhibits. MR. PETROCELLI: 2173 and 2174. 2173 will be K7, the known head hair from Mr. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of known head hair from Mr. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of hair found on Ron Goldman's THE COURT: Which is? MR. MEDVENE: 2174. THE COURT: You had a Q number. MR. MEDVENE: Yes, sir. Q23. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) There was -- I'm sorry; I probably interrupted you on your You were going to tell the jury -- we just run the pictures, actually, by them. Would you just briefly describe the microscopic characteristics that caused you A. When I do a comparison, that is, compare question hair with the known hair, It's not uncommon to find fragments in cases. In this particular one, I saw the color of the hair, the one side pigmentation, Q. Now, Mr. Leonard also asked you certain of the hair that you analyzed inside I'll put on the board K7 again. It's known head hair from Mr. Simpson. That's And that will be 2175, Your Honor. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of K7, Known Head Hair from MR. MEDVENE: And 2176 will be Q10, a hair found inside the knit hat at Bundy. (The instrument herein referred to as a Hair found inside the knit hat at MR. MEDVENE: Again, let's put them on the board. First, 2175, which is K7, the known head hair of Mr. Simpson. (Exhibit 2175 displayed.) MR. MEDVENE: And Q10. (Q10 displayed.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Why did you say the hairs that it's just -- again, had the A. For the same reasons. It's pigmentation, thickness of the cuticle, size of Q. I'm just going to show you one more with reference to the knit hat, so it (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of known head hair of Mr. MR. MEDVENE: Again, the known head hair of Mr. Simpson, which is No. 34. And 2178, which is Q14, a hair found inside the knit cap at Bundy, which you (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of Head Hair found in cap at MR. MEDVENE: Can you run that on the board once more? First the known hair of Now, over that, the questioned hair. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Can you explain to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury why A. Yeah. Not same reasons; that is, the color, size, shape, pigmentation, Q. In the 10,000 or so occasions when you've been asked to differentiate MR. LEONARD: Objection. Irrelevant. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) With respect to the questions we've asked you about hairs Is that possible? MR. LEONARD: Objection, Your Honor. Argumentative. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Well, when you say that -- when you gave your explanation MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, that misstates his evidence. He said several times -- MR. MEDVENE: Objection to speaking objection. MR. LEONARD: It misstates what he testified to. I will approach the side bar if I need to. Absolutely misstates what he said. THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Mr. Deedrick, do you have any reason to believe that the MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative. THE COURT: I think I'll allow it. I don't know what kind of a probative (BY MR. MEDVENE) Would you answer the question, please. The Court permitted you THE WITNESS: Oh, I. THE COURT: It's like asking, is anything possible. MR. MEDVENE: That's what Mr. Leonard asked, is anything possible. MR. LEONARD: Oh, Your Honor, I -- THE COURT: Excuse me. The question is, is anything possible in terms of how the THE WITNESS: Should I answer that question, Your Honor? THE COURT: I guess so. That's what the question is. MR. MEDVENE: Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) All right. Let me ask you, Mr. Deedrick, could you tell us, MR. LEONARD: Misstates his testimony and it's been asked and answered. THE COURT: Well, we will take a noon recess. 1:30. And, Mr. Medvene, why don't you work on that question. (At 12:00 P.M. a recess was taken until 1:30 P.M. of the same day.)
SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were resumed in open court in the presence of the Douglas Deedrick, the witness on the stand at the time of the recess, having THE CLERK: You're still under oath. Would you please state your name again for THE WITNESS: Douglas W. Deedrick. THE CLERK: Thank you. THE COURT: Okay. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MEDVENE: Q. Agent Deedrick, you referred to your work and examination this morning as a A. Well, hair analysis, especially with hair analysis, it's a subjective What that -- what that means is you make a determination as to the value or the So it's a combination of both. A lot of the subjectivity or art, as some people Q. Now, Mr. Leonard, in questioning, talked about the possibility of human MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I object to the preamble. It misstates my questions to THE COURT: I think you talked about floating hairs. Overruled. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) With respect -- with respect to Mr. Goldman's shirt, did MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I object. It's beyond the scope and also, once again, THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I did not. I found no other hairs. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) With respect to Mr. Goldman's pants, did you find any hairs A. Again, what was the item? Q. When on -- on Ronald Goldman pants? A. On his pants, no. And again, we're referring to hairs, comparable type Q. Yes? A. Yes. Q. Did you find any Bronco fibers that floated down on Mr. Goldman's shirt that MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: On his shirt? Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Yes. MR. LEONARD: Calls for speculation as well. THE COURT: Overruled. Floated down, yes. Sustained on that. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Were there any Bronco fibers identified on Mr. Goldman's A. No. Q. Any on his pants? A. No. Q. With respect, there's questions about the Bundy glove. Did you find any A. I did not. Q. Did you share the hair and fiber evidence that you testified about, MR. LEONARD: Objection, Your Honor. Outside the scope and irrelevant. THE COURT: Sustained. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did you -- did you make available and give to Mr. Simpson's MR. LEONARD: Same objections, Your Honor. I move to strike the question at this THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Yes. All that material was made available and it was examined. I MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I move to strike the last response. THE COURT: Everything stricken except "yes." Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Did any expert, to your knowledge, ever disagree with any MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I move to strike. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. LEONARD: I ask the jury be admonished at this point. MR. MEDVENE: If the Court -- THE COURT: Disregard the question. MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please, Mr. Leonard talked about -- MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, please. I don't want speaking objections in front of MR. MEDVENE: Your Honor, may we approach the bench, Your Honor? THE COURT: No. The objection is sustained. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Mr. Leonard asked you a general question, not about this MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I move to strike once again. Objection. Irrelevant. THE COURT: I think -- MR. LEONARD: Calls for hearsay. THE COURT: You opened the door on that one, overruled. THE WITNESS: No, no one disagreed with the results that I came up to. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Did you report out -- is the policy of the FBI to ever MR. LEONARD: Objection. Beyond the scope, asked and answered. THE COURT: Asked on direct. Overruled -- Sustained. MR. MEDVENE: I have nothing further. Thank you very much, Agent Deedrick. RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. LEONARD: Q. Agent Deedrick, you were asked on redirect examination about hairs and Let's me ask you this: If a blanket was brought out of the residence at Bundy, MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. Outside the scope and assuming facts not in THE COURT: Overruled. MR. MEDVENE: And no foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: It could -- it depends what's on the surface of the blanket. MR. LEONARD: Thank you. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Now, I want to make sure it's perfectly clear to the jury MR. MEDVENE: The Court, please -- THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) Those photographs that you showed, they represent a very A. That's right, it does. Q. In fact, the hair that -- the hairs that you examined, were how long -- I'm THE COURT: Sustained my objection. You've been through this on your cross MR. LEONARD: But Your Honor, he went into it on detail in redirect. THE COURT: Just sustained on redirect. MR. LEONARD: Excuse me? THE COURT: I'll sustain my objection. MR. LEONARD: Can you put the chart up? Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) On redirect, you were asked about items that weren't found, You were asked about items of hair and fibers that weren't found on various A. I do. Q. Now, you've seen this chart before, haven't you? A. I have, yes. Q. And that chart, at least this portion of it, accurately represents some of A. It does represent some of the things, yes. Q. Okay. So you would agree that there was no hair consistent with O.J. Simpson (Exhibit 1159 is displayed on TV screen.) MR. MEDVENE: This is outside the scope of the redirect. MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, he went -- THE COURT: Sustained. MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, he went into detail. MR. MEDVENE: Excuse me. This is argument. THE COURT: Sustained. THE COURT: This wasn't covered on redirect. MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, can we approach? THE COURT: No. MR. LEONARD: May we approach, Your Honor? THE COURT: No. MR. LEONARD: Don't have any further questions of this witness. THE COURT: Okay. Okay. You're excused. THE WITNESS: Thank you. THE COURT: Thank you. (The instrument herein referred to as Chart listing items of evidence that were THE CLERK: Was there an exhibit referred to? I'd like to get for the record, what 1159 is. MR. LEONARD: It is a chart indicating items of evidence that were not found on THE CLERK: Thank you. MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please, we would move in 2169. THE CLERK: One moment, please. Thank you. MR. MEDVENE: 2169, 520, 521, 503, 524, 525, 527, 530, 531, 532, 516, 517, 2173, (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2169, was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 520 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 521 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 503 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 524 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 525 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 527 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 530 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 531 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 532 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 516 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 517 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2173 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2174 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2175 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2176 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2177 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2178 was received in MR. BAKER: Object to 2169. That's cumulative and -- MR. MEDVENE: We didn't move in 2169. THE CLERK: Yes you did. MR. BAKER: Yes you did. MR. MEDVENE: Excuse me, the first one. MR. PETROCELLI: That's our chart. MR. BAKER: The chart, I object to it. MR. MEDVENE: That's the chart. THE COURT: Which chart? MR. MEDVENE: That was the chart that Mr. Deedrick prepared. THE COURT: Okay. Overruled. MR. MEDVENE: Thank you, Your Honor. MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, we ask that 2171, 2172 and 1159 be moved in. THE COURT: Okay. (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Defendants' (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Defendants' (The instrument herein described was received in evidence as Defendants' ROBIN COTTON, called as a witness on behalf of Plaintiffs, was duly sworn and THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause THE WITNESS: I do. THE CLERK: And if you please, state and spell your name for the record? THE WITNESS: My name is Robin Cotton, R-O-B-I-N, C-O-T-T-O-N. MR. MEDVENE: Oh, excuse me, your honor, can we reserve on 1159? There was no THE COURT: Okay. Objection is noted and you may raise that objection at a later THE CLERK: Received? THE COURT: Received. You may move to strike it. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. Q. May I proceed, Your Honor? A. You may. Q. Dr. Cotton, what is your occupation? A. I'm the Laboratory Director at Cellmark Diagnostics in German Town, Q. What is Cellmark Diagnostics? A. We are --we are a private laboratory and we do paternity testing and testing Q. And could you tell us what your formal educational background is? A. I have a Bachelors Degree of Science with a major in Biology. I have a Q. And when did you receive your Ph.D. degree? A. In 1980. Q. Can you describe briefly for us what molecular biology is? A. It's basically a set of techniques that allow you to study the molecular Q. And what is biochemistry? A. It's sort of the same thing. Q. Okay. And in your studies to obtain your Ph.D. in these fields, did you deal A. Yes, I did. Q. Can you tell us what aspects of your studies involve DNA? A. DNA is packaged into chromosomes and my work at Irvine was involved in Q. Now, after obtaining your Ph.D. degree, did you -- what did you do next? A. I went to the University of Iowa and did a post -- Post Doctoral Fellow Q. Did you work there, also involve any aspects of DNA? A. Yes, it did. Q. After your postdoctoral studies, what did you do next? A. I went to the National Institute of Health in Bethesda, Maryland and I Q. And what did you do while you were -- Well, first maybe you could tell us A. It is a government funded research institute which is really composed of Q. And what specific research were you involved with? A. I was involved with a unit that was looking at the genetics of alcoholism Q. And that also was a DNA related research; was it? A. It was. Q. Let me show you what I'd like to mark as next exhibit in order which I THE CLERK: 2179. MR. LAMBERT: 1179. THE CLERK: 21. MR. LAMBERT: Excuse me, 2179. Q. (BY MR. LAMBERT) Is that a copy of your current curriculum vitae, Doctor? A. Yes, it is. Q. Does that list the various articles that you have authored since you (The instrument herein referred to as the curriculum vitae of Dr. Robin Cotton A. Yes, it does. Q. Are any of those articles peer review articles? A. Some of them are. Q. You explain what peer review means? A. If a scientist or a group of scientists does some research in the laboratory The journal then sends that out to two or three, usually other scientists, who And those scientists read the paper, make comments and then send it back to the Q. So some of your articles that you've published have gone through that A. Yes. Q. Have you, yourself ever been a peer reviewer of other people's articles? A. Yes. I review, maybe two articles a year. Q. The articles that you've written and articles that you review, are they all A. The ones I would be peer reviewing, currently would be involved with DNA as Q. And when did you join Cellmark? A. In January of 1988. Q. And when you first joined, what was your position? A. I was the Manager of Research and Development. Q. And what was your next position at Cellmark? A. Couple -- couple years later, I became the Deputy Director, that is the Q. That's your current position? A. Yes. Q. And can you tell me, generally speaking, what your duties are as a A. I have overall scientific responsibility for the work that's done at And I oversee every research and validation work that's done at Cellmark and I Q. And can you tell us about how many cases a year are handled by Cellmark? A. Cellmark handles about a thousand. MR. BLASIER: Objection. Irrelevant. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Cellmark handles about a thousand or so paternity cases per year Q. (BY MR. LAMBERT) And are the cases that are handled by Cellmark, are they A. Yes, they are. Q. What are those guidelines? A. The guidelines are referred to as the TWGDAM guidelines. It's T-W -- all Q. And Cellmark follows those guidelines, do they? A. Yes, we do. Q. Do the guidelines require, among other things, proficiency testing done by A. Yes, they do. Q. And what is proficiency testing? A. Proficiency testing is having some samples come into the laboratory where Many other labs will do the same proficiency test and then all these results Q. And so Cellmark has taken these proficiency tests in the past? A. Yes. Q. Have there ever been any problems with any proficiency tests? A. Yes. Q. What problems have there been? A. In 1988, we did a large proficiency test sample set and got one incorrect Q. Did Cellmark take any action as a consequence of these two incorrect A. We made some changes in our protocols to address the problems that we Q. And since 18 -- 1989, has Cellmark taken any further proficiency tests? A. Yes. All of our analysts take two per year. Q. So a number of proficiency tests have been taken by different analysts since A. Yes. Q. Have you ever experienced any problems on any proficiency tests since 1989? A. No, we have not. Q. In addition, to the TWGDAM, am I saying that right? A. Yes. Q. In addition to the TWGDAM guidelines concerning proficiency tests, are there A. No. Analysis of evidence -- the TWGDAM guidelines are pretty much the Q. And Cellmark follows those guidelines? A. We do. Q. Now, could I ask, if you're a member of any -- if you're a member of any A. I am. Q. Can you just list those for us? A. I'm a member of the American Association of Blood Banks, the connection Q. Can you tell us basically what the function of the American Society of Human A. Basically, it's a large group of scientists who have interests, scientific Q. The American Society of Forensic -- American Academy of Forensic Science, A. It's also a group of scientists that have scientific interest in the Q. And can you just tell us generally what forensic science means? A. Basically, the application of science to answering questions regarding some Q. Now, as part of your job as Cellmark Lab Director, do you testify in court A. I do. Q. And how often have you testified in court? A. I don't keep an exact record, but I testify about 12 times a year. I Q. And in all of those times that you've testified, have you been qualified as A. Yes, I have. Q. And in regard to what subject matter? A. With regard to DNA analysis as it applies to Forensic Science. Q. And how many different states have you been qualified as such an expert? A. Probably about 20. Q. And have you been qualified before in the State of California? A. Yes. Q. And have you testified before in the State of California? A. Many times. Q. Now, we've talked already a little bit this afternoon about DNA. Perhaps you A. DNA is found in the nucleus of all of our cells. It's found in basically all One half of that information is inherited from your mother, the other half of Q. When was DNA first discovered? A. It was first discovered in the early, late 1800s or early 1900s. And I don't Q. Since the discovery of the structure of DNA, has that been the subject of A. Yes, an enormous amount. Q. There have been great advances, have there, in the field of DNA since that A. Since 1953, yes, there have been many advances. We know a huge amount now Q. Okay. Why don't we put up the first chart. (Chart displayed entitled, "Where Is DNA Found?") Q. (BY MR. LAMBERT) Perhaps, Dr. Cotton, you can explain to us what that chart MR. BLASIER: Could we have the chart number? MR. LAMBERT: I'm sorry, it's 273. (The instrument herein referred to as a chart entitled "Where is DNA Found?" Q. (BY MR. LAMBERT) Can you please explain what this chart sets forth? A. On the left, we'll start on the left with the cell. This one sort of looks All cells, except red blood cells, have a nucleus. Red blood cells lose their The DNA is found in the nucleus, packaged up into 46 chromosomes. 23 of those, So the second panel just shows a lot of chromosomes sitting in this nucleus In that chromosome, the DNA molecule wound up. And so in this chart, the DNA is That's what's shown in that final panel that the DNA has a helical structure as Q. Perhaps we could have the next chart then, please. I think this one is going THE CLERK: 2180. (The instrument herein referred to as chart with close-up of chromosome with (Exhibit No. 2180 was displayed.) Q. You can tell us what that chart is? A. This is just a really short section of a DNA molecule diagrammatically, but One is that the DNA strand is made up of only four components and they are And these four components, if you just looked along the whole strand, the order The components are in the molecule in pairs. So at the very top you see a green A and T are always paired together, G and C are always paired together. And So it's like if you think of a zipper that has different shape teeth that sort When you pull these strands apart and you can put them back together and that There's only one other feature that's really important in terms of thinking An AT pair or a GC pair is called a base pair. It's almost impossible to talk So the piece that we're looking at on the chart has six base pairs altogether Q. And how many base pairs would a person of this DNA -- would a person A. In humans, there are about 6 billion base pairs of information that makeup Q. And all of those base pairs are composed of just these 34 items? A. There either AT pairs or GC pairs. Q. They're always paired together in that sequence? A. In that fashion, yes. Q. Let me ask you this: Do we have, all of us have the same DNA? A. No. Q. What kind of differences between people are there in this DNA? A. There are actually many more similarities than there are differences. At However, a small fraction of the DNA is different and that's intuitively With the exception of identical twins. Identical twins look identical because, Q. So other than identical twins, do any other two people have identical DNA? A. No. Q. And this portion of the DNA that's different from person to person, is there A. Looking at it how? Q. Well, let's take a look at the next two charts and maybe that will help you. (Mr. Foster complies.) MR. LAMBERT: I think both of those -- these will need a few numbers. (Display chart entitled "DNA Lengths Differences.) MR. LAMBERT: Which will be what? THE CLERK: 2181. MR. LAMBERT: 2181. (The instrument herein referred to as a chart entitled "DNA Length Q. Dr. Cotton, can you describe for us what this board depicts? A. Yes. There's two common ways, two common types of differences in DNA that Can I -- Q. There's a pointer there. A. Yeah. Can I come down and -- just for these next two? Q. Sure. (Witness approaches exhibit.) A. This is the same little sequence that we saw on the diagram that you had up Sort of like box cars on a train. This train has four box cars. This chromosome Now, let's go on and look at another person for that same chromosome pair, for So here I've got altogether, eight base pairs. Here I've got 16. Here I've got If I had a way to go in to the DNA and cut these sections out that had these That kind of difference in DNA is one of the differences that -- current Q. And this, the difference that you're describing is the difference in length A. That's right. So this is a length difference or a length. The scientific Q. So, would you say that the person one and person two are polymorphic in this A. I would say that the genetic location that has this DNA added is Q. Could we look at the next one, please? Did -- this one does have an existing number. It's number 276. (The instrument herein referred to as a chart entitled "Diagram of Autorad," Q. On this one? A. On this one we've only shown what would be only one person. You get two Here, if we look along one side, we have a C, a T, a G and an A. If we go to So we have a difference in the sequence of the basis or the base pairs as you And someone else might have the same C or the same T, or they might have a G So this is an example of a sequence difference. Where at a particular location, Q. So Dr. Cotton, taking these two DNA differences that you pointed out to us A. Yes. Q. And what are those tests called? A. The tests that look at -- well, the two kind of tests are referred to as Q. Okay. Why don't we take them one at a time. What's the RFLP test? Maybe you A. RFLP stands for Restriction Fragment Length Polymorphism. And the two Q. Looks at length differences like you explained in that first chart on the A. Exactly. Q. And could you just generally describe how this RFLP, and if you don't mind, A. For either kind of test, it doesn't matter if it's RFLP or the other type, The first thing that you're going to do is purify the DNA away from both the And you also want to purify the DNA away from the other parts of the cells that Q. So your first step is you purify the DNA and this is part of the RFLP A. Yes. Q. What do you do with it after that? A. After that, you go through a procedure that allows you to cut out these Q. Can we have the next chart please, Steve? And I think this is going to need a new number as well. THE CLERK: 2182. MR. LAMBERT: No. I'm told it has a number. What this is a portion of existing Q. And this chart diagram of Autorad, perhaps you can explain to us what this A. In this -- in doing this RFLP procedure you're going to purify the DNA, then And then you go through yet one more step to be able to see your results. The final results are visualized on a piece of X-ray film. You haven't done an And the chart that's on the easel is a very simplified diagram of what's shown Q. And can you tell us, using this as an example, what an Autorad can show you A. Yes we can. Q. Yes. You can go. A. Can I? Q. Sure. A. Enhance this just a little bit. Q. Yes, you can. (Witness draws on exhibit.) A. What I want to do, to orient you, there's a, what's called a top and a There's a starting point for your DNA, and there's going to -- just give us For each sample, generally you'll see two dark lines that are called bands, The piece of DNA that's resulted in this band is physically shorter in length So let's suppose that I have three samples here; one, two, and three. And these When this result is completed, you can look at these. Sample one and sample two So it's possible that sample one and sample two came from the same person. So the person with whom the DNA came in sample three cannot be the same person What you're looking at here is the amount of information you would get, looking We already know this is different. So that answer's one question right there. Two and three -- MR. BLASIER: Your Honor, I object to the narrative at this point. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Sample two and sample three must be from different people. Q. (BY MR. LAMBERT) Now, when you actually use this system in case work, do you A. No. In case work, you -- well, you do make the comparison visually when you After you've made the comparison visually, there is a computer assisted imaging Q. This RFLP method that you just described for us, is that one of the tests A. Yes. Q. Is that test also used in any other fields besides forensic fields? A. Yes. It's used in -- it's used in a lot of research applications. It's used Q. And so is this a commonly used procedure among DNA scientists? A. Very common. Q. Could we see the next chart, please? (Mr. Foster displays chart) MR. LAMBERT: This is number 275. (The instrument herein referred to as a chart entitled "PCR Analysis," was Q. Now, this chart, which is teetering up there, is this chart designed to A. Yes. Q. Can you just take us briefly through the steps in the PCR test? A. The big difference in a PCR test is that you don't have as much DNA to start So if you look at the top panel here, it shows, like, a white cloth with a And then the blow-up there in pink is trying to illustrate that you're getting If you look at the pink circle there with the DNA in it, you'll see that most And let's say that this is the section that we want, that we're interested in And that is, you add the DNA into a tube and you add an additional component So step two just shows that you've taken all these components and what you're And so on the -- on the lower panel here, in the test tube, now the pink circle If you want to have 20 copies of one page, you just go in and push "20" on your And now you have enough to actually do an analysis and then the small little And the other kind of analysis that's commonly done where it says: AMP, FLP is Q. So taking the later point first in the PCR context, is there a particular A. Yes. Q. What that test called? A. It's called D1S80. That's actually the name of the genetic location that the Q. That test looks at one particular location, and what does it look at, at A. It looks at length differences in the DNA at that location. Q. Perhaps you can get the pad of paper out for us now. Just put it on top of that. (Mr. Foster complies.) Q. (BY MR. LAMBERT) What I'd like you to do now, Dr. Cotton, is explain another A. And what exactly -- Q. Well, I'd like you to explain to us what the tests are that are commonly A. Okay. Let me start here just for a minute. There are two commonly used tests that look at sequence differences. And they Let me start with the polymarker because it's a little easier. First of all -- MR. FOSTER: You want me to take the board down? THE WITNESS: It's abbreviated PM, standing for polymarker. This test looks at Each of those locations has a name. But what I want to show you is that the There's two, two variations that a person could have. You could have a B at one And everyone is going to be one of these three types. Each of these variations For the polymarker tests, there are three locations that have this much So that's all the possible combinations of an A, a B or a C. Each time (Witness indicates to portion just written on hand-written diagram.) Q. And everyone is going to be one of these six possibilities. Q. So this polymarker test, tests at five separate locations simultaneously? A. Simultaneously, well, actually it's six because there's one location I Q. Okay. Maybe you could explain that, too. MR. BLASIER: Could we have a number to that? MR. LAMBERT: The one you just did, yeah, we'll put a number on it. That will be THE CLERK: (Nods in the affirmative.) THE COURT REPORTER: 2182? MR. LAMBERT: Yes. (The instrument herein referred to as a Hand Drawn Diagram by Dr. Cotton of DQ Q. For DQ Alpha, there are a few more alleles than A, B and C and these have So there's a 1.1, a 1.2, a 1.3 -- 1.3, a 2, a 3 and a 4. And if I wrote down Q. And is this, once again, is an example of where you'll get one of those A. Yes. Q. So everyone will have two, although it could be that you have the same from A. Yes. You might get a 1.1 from one parent and a 1.1 from another parent. Or Q. And again, this test, like the polymarker test, is testing for sequence A. Yes. Each one of these that have a number designation in the DNA is Q. Thank you. And we'll give this the next number which is -- MR. LAMBERT: 2183. THE CLERK: Counsel will you write, than, on this chart, 2182 so we don't get -- MR. LAMBERT: Sure. MR. BLASIER: This is 2183. THE COURT: That's 2183. MR. BLASIER: It's one before. THE CLERK: Okay. THE COURT: The other one is 2182. THE CLERK: Thank you. (The instrument herein referred to as hand drawn diagram by Dr. Cotton THE COURT: Okay. Let's take a ten-minute recess, ladies and gentlemen. Don't (Recess.) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were resumed in open court in the presence of the Q. Before the break, Dr. Cotton, you had explained the PCR system of testing A. Yes. Q. Is that system used in laboratories, other than forensic laboratories, as A. The reaction, the PCR reaction is used almost anywhere anybody's doing The specific test is used mainly in forensic laboratories and may have some Q. But the PCR process itself, that's very commonly used by DNA scientists? A. PCR process itself is very common. Q. And in your laboratory, you use both RFLP test and the PCR test, as I A. That's right. Q. Why do you choose one or the other? A. Essentially it allows you to work on a lot of different kinds of evidence. Q. So are there different amounts of information that you can get from these A. Yes. Q. Could you sort of explain to us what the range of the amounts of information A. Yes. Let's -- in order to do that, and this is an -- this is an important That system by itself isn't, doesn't have a lot of information because it's not The polymarker test altogether uses five systems like that. And so it provides And then I showed you, if you have three alleles, you can have six possible But you could still accidentally, by chance have the same type as a piece of For the DQ Alpha you have six alleles, 21 possible combinations, that's a RFLP, on the other hand, for each genetic location that you use, has at least So information that comes from an RFLP test is very highly discriminating and So right now, as the technology stands, the most information possible is If you can't do an RFLP test and you do a PCR test, you are not getting the If that number is one in a million, you wouldn't see that number very often. Q. And using the PCR test as an example, if you are able to test at several A. It does. And that's really a good generic statement. The more genetic -- MR. BLASIER: I'm going to object to the narrative response. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: The more genetic locations that you look at, the more information Q. (BY MR. LAMBERT) Now, before we get into the actual work that you did in A. In the context of DNA, it means that the DNA molecule is being broken down. If I took a pair of scissors then -- and cut that thread in 20 different If you think of degradation, you can think of degradation as a one continuum; So if I took that same thread and I cut it into a thousand, cut it at a Q. In doing forensic DNA work, is degradation something that you see very A. It's something that you see all the time. Q. Why is that, Dr. Cotton? A. If you take some fresh blood from -- if I had somebody draw my blood and we If you have blood or any other human cells left at a crime scene, that those It might be that some evidence is taken from someone who is deceased. So all of Q. And are you, as a general proposition, able to test this degraded DNA to A. Yes. Q. Does there ever come a point in time when the DNA is so degraded that you A. Yes. Q. And when that happens, Dr. Cotton, does the degradation change the DNA type A. No, it -- Q. I'm sorry. Please. A. It's okay. If it's too degraded to test, you simply don't get an answer. Q. And does DNA type ever change from one type into another type? A. If -- Q. Through degradation? A. No. Q. And can degradation change DNA so that one person's DNA type could be A. The answer to that is no. I can think of an affect where you might lose some Q. Okay. Now, let's talk about this test. Did you, at Cellmark -- did Cellmark A. Yes. Q. Do you recall when you first received those? A. I need to -- Q. Take a look at your -- look at your records? A. -- Yeah, use the case records. (Witness reviews documents.) A. The initial items that we received were received on June 24, 1994. Q. And who did you receive those initial items from? A. From Colin Yamauchi. Q. And from whom is he employed? A. LAPD Scientific Investigation Division. Q. And during the course of your involvement with this case, did you receive A. Yes. Q. Did you receive from them, any other source? A. Yes. We received, also, some tubes that had DNA already extracted. So the Q. And is that another DNA laboratory? A. Yes, it is. Q. On this -- the initial time, when you got these evidence items that Mr. A. Well, when we first opened the items and logged -- Well, actually for the Q. And how about the for the rest of the items? A. For some of the subsequent items, we had Henry Lee and Edward Blake, Dr. Q. And Dr. Lee and Dr. Blake were there as representatives of Mr. Simpson? A. That's correct. Q. And Dr. Blake, is he, himself, a DNA scientist? A. Yes, he is. Q. Does he run a laboratory that does DNA testing? MR. BLASIER: Objection. Irrelevant. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Yes, he does. Q. (BY MR. LAMBERT) Ultimately, do you have a record as to how many different A. Yes. Q. Can you tell me how many there were? A. All together, we tested 23 items. Q. And were all those items tested by the one test or the other or did you use A. Some items were tested, both RFLP and PCR. And some items were just tested MR. LAMBERT: Why don't we bring out the next board, please. (Mr. Foster complies. Displays board entitled "Results of DNA Analysis Bundy MR. LAMBERT: This is 291, Your Honor. (The instrument herein referred to as a chart entitled "Results of DNA Analysis Q. (BY MR. LAMBERT) Before we get to this board, Dr. Cotton, I'd like to ask A. Yes. What you're doing is saying I have a group of genetic characteristics So you might say, how often does this group of characteristics occur in The purpose of doing that is just what I mentioned earlier. That is, if a On the other hand, if you calculate a frequency and say I have -- I have a set And if that frequency is rare, then that tells you a lot more about whether Q. And as part of Cellmark's regular work, do you routinely calculate these A. Yes, we do. Q. Do you include them in your reports, on your test result? A. Yes, we do. Q. Did you do so in this case? A. Yes, we did. Q. So for each of the items that you tested were you -- where you got a A. Yes, we did. Q. That's a calculation that is routinely done by other DNA laboratories; isn't A. Yes. Q. Now let's take a look at this board itself. I'd like to focus your attention A. Yes, we did. Q. And what test did you do? A. We did a DQ Alpha and a polymarker test. Q. And those are the PCR tests that you mentioned? A. They are both PCR tests. Q. And what results did you get on -- on that test? A. The DQ Alpha result showed us a type of a 1.1 but the control that is So the -- if you look on the board in parentheses it says "zero." That's We did get a polymarker match, that is the polymarker type from that piece of Q. And looking up at the top of the board where we have the names Orenthal A. Yes. The DQ Alpha entry shows what the type was from these three known Mr. Simpson has a 1.1, 1.2 DQ Alpha type; Nicole Brown has a 1.1, 1.1 DQ Alpha Q. Than, though we don't have it on the board, did you also determine the five A. We did. Q. And as to number 56, you obtained a polymarker match at all five of those A. Yes, we did. Q. So that would tell you then that Nicole Brown is a possible source of that A. Yes, it would. Q. And were you able to exclude Mr. Simpson and Mr. Goldman as possible A. Yes. They are excluded. Q. So the only possible source upon those three people is Nicole Brown? A. Among those three people, she's the only one that's not excluded. Q. And were you able to calculate a frequency for that one item? A. Yes, we were. Q. Can you please write that frequency on the board for us in the space JUROR: We can't see behind here. Can you move it toward the judge, or just move Yeah. Thank you. (Counsel adjusts Exhibit board.) THE COURT: All the jurors see it? JURORS: (Nod in the affirmative.) THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. Q. (BY MR. LAMBERT) Maybe black is better. (Indicating to marker.) (Witness marks on board.) Q. So for this one evidence item, you were able to determine the frequency as 1 A. For each item, we calculated a frequency for Caucasians, for African persons What I wrote on the board was the smallest of those numbers, was 1 in 48. And Q. And taking the one in four, what does that number tell us, 1 in 48? A. That means that we are estimating. And every time you do this, this is an Q. Okay. And in this instance you're frequency was calculated just based on the A. Yes. Because the DQ Alpha test did not have a C dot. That was one clue. So Q. Okay. Let's now go up to the top of the chart item 47, which is the first of A. We ran, again, the DQ Alpha test and the polymarker test. Q. And what results did you get? A. We got a DQ Alpha type 1.1, 1.2 and a polymarker type that was the same as Q. And the DQ Alpha type 1.1, 1.2 is that the same as Mr. Simpson? A. It's also the same as Mr. Simpson's. Q. Would Mr. Simpson be a possible source of that particular evidence item? A. Yes. Q. And would either of Nicole Brown Simpson or Ronald Goldman be a possible A. No. They are both excluded. Q. Okay. So once again, the only possible source among those three people for A. For that item of these three people we have the only one that could be a Q. Did you do a frequency allocation for that evidence item? A. Yes, we did. Q. Can you please put that up on the board for us? (Witness complies, marks exhibit.) Q. So in regard to that particular evidence item, you would expect to find that A. Yes. Q. Is that what that means? The reason why that number is so much larger than A. In this case, we're now including and multiplying together, the DQ Alpha But also, we're looking at a different set of types, too so, you can't make a Q. But is that, at least, in part, an example of the more genetic markers that A. Yes. But that you -- yeah. But if you really wanted to make that comparison, Q. Okay. Let's take now, item 48. Again, what tests were you able to do on item A. We did the DQ Alpha test and the polymarker test. Q. And the results on that test? A. The results on that test for DQ Alpha are type 1.1, 1.2. The polymarker Q. And when you say excluded in this context does that mean that they could not A. Yes. Q. And Mr. Simpson could be the source; is that what your saying? A. Yes. Q. And I probably know the answer to this by looking at the board, but can you A. It's exactly the same as the one for item 47 because it's exactly the same Q. Okay. And now how about item number 49? A. Item 49, we did a DQ Alpha test and a polymarker test. The DQ Alpha has a Q. So once again, Mr. Simpson is a possible source for this item of evidence? A. That's right. Q. And Ronald Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson are excluded? A. That's correct. Q. Would the frequency for that evidence item be the same? A. Yes, it would. Q. Let's now then go to item 50. And by the way, I'm just asking you about the A. That's right. Q. So Cellmark's tests on item 50 showed -- first, was the PCR and RFLP test? A. It's a PCR test. Q. What's the results there? A. The results are that the DQ Alpha type is 1.1; 1.2. The polymarker set of -- Q. Get down or take down our patch for this one.. Once again, from the frequencies for that item be the same as for item 47? A. Yes, it would. Q. That's because those are the same types. A. That's right. Q. Why don't we have you write those up there now, so we'll have our record (Witness complies, marks exhibit at descriptions 48, 49 and 50 under frequency Q. Now as to item number 52, possibly should have you do this before you sat A. Yes, we did. Q. And what results did you get there? A. We got a DQ Alpha type 1.1, 1.2. We got a polymarker set of types that's the Q. And would he, once again, therefore, by the CPCR test be included as a A. Yes. Q. And would Ronald Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson be excluded? A. Yes, they would. Q. Now, as to that evidence item, were you also able to do an RFLP test? A. Yes, we were. Q. The reason why you could do it on that evidence item and not the other A. The DNA in item 52 was not as degraded as the DNA in items 50, 49, 48 and Q. And the RFLP test that you did, what results did you obtain? A. We looked at five different genetic locations with the RFLP test and the DNA Q. By banding pattern, you mean by what you showed us on that example before A. That's right. Q. So is Mr. Simpson therefore under both the PCR test an the RFLP test A. Yes. Q. And is Ronald Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson excluded? A. They are excluded. Q. Now, because you have two different tests here, did you do two different A. We did one frequency calculation for the DQ Alpha polymarker and we did a -- Q. And would the frequency calculation for the PCR results be the same as for A. Yes, it is. Q. And that's because ... A. That's because it's the same set of types that we're doing the calculation Q. The frequency calculations for the five -- by the way, let me ask you this A. A probe is recognizing a specific genetic location so when they, on the Q. And taking into account that five probe match, were you able to calculate A. Yes. Q. Could you put that calculation up for us, please? A. And do you want the PCR calculation? Q. Might as well put it while you're at it. (Witness complies, marks exhibits under frequency column for item numbers 52 52 Q. So, Dr. Cotton, you put up, for the PCR test results, the same numbers, the A. It's because the RFLP test is very much more powerful in discriminating one This particular pattern calculates out to be -- Occur in this range of 1 in 170 Q. As small as 1 in 170 million people? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, we haven't put all of the test results that you got in connection Did you do some testing on evidence item number 84? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell us what evidence item number 84 is, please. Q. The -- A. The item was broken down into -- there's fingernail clippings, fingernail Q. And those are from the Nicole Brown fingernail scrapings? A. That's right. Q. From whom did you receive those fingernail scrapings? A. We received extracted DNA from the California Department of Justice Lab. Q. And did you subject those fingernail scrapings to any tests? A. Yes, we did, the PM and the DQ Alpha test. Q. What test results did you get? A. The test results we got were the same types as Nicole Brown's types. Q. So the DQ Alpha type for the blood from under the fingernails was 1.1, 1.1? A. That's right. Q. The polymarker types in this AB, B system that you described before that A. That's right. Q. These tests, this PCR test that you did on the fingernails, that's a A. Yes. Q. And did you -- would you be able to determine from that test if any other In other words, if there was more than one person's blood in there? A. Well, I have to answer that yes and no. Q. Okay. A. Yes. It's a sensitive test, but it does have limitations. So you have to You could have a mixture of two people where the amounts in that mixture were So, yes, it's a sensitive test. It will not always pick up a mixture, but it Q. In other words, if you had one part of one person's blood and 20 parts of A. You would possibly see that you had a mixture if you had one part, one part Q. And in this particular test for evidence item 84, did you see any evidence A. No. Q. Why don't we have the next board then. (Mr. Foster complies. Displays board.) MR. LAMBERT: This will be -- excuse me, I believe 296. (The instrument herein referred to as board entitled "Results of DNA Analysis - Q. (BY MR. LAMBERT) Now, Dr. Cotton, this board reflects some additional Did Cellmark test some of those items? A. Yes, we did. Q. And first let's take item number 7 with a -- was a blood drop found on the A. Yes, we were. Q. And what were your results? A. We have again visible, DQ Alpha results have a 1.1, 1.2. But like one of the The polymarker results were the same as those obtained from Mr. Simpson. Q. And would that test therefore include Mr. Simpson as a possible source of A. Yes. Q. And did it exclude Nicole Brown or/and Ronald Goldman as possible sources? A. Yes. Q. So we can take a little patch off on this one. And did you calculate a A. Yes, we did. Q. Could you please put that on the board? (Witness marks exhibit in frequency location under item number 7.) Q. There's a second item on this Rockingham evidence board which is item number A. Yes, we were. Q. And what tests were you able to perform on that evidence item? A. We did a DQ Alpha and a polymarker test and also an RFLP test. Q. And so you were able to do much more testing on this evidence item than on A. That's right. Q. And do you have any idea as to why one item would test so much better than A. It's a matter of how degraded the DNA was. The DNA from the foyer was in Q. So the location at which an evidence item is found can affect how degraded MR. BLASIER: Objection. Leading. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Definitely. Q. (BY MR. LAMBERT) Now, did you do calculations for both the DQ Alpha and RFLP A. Yes, I did. Q. I guess before we did that, I should take off this patch because this also A. It does. Q. And neither Ronald Goldman or Nicole Brown Simpson could be included, could A. That's correct. Q. Would you put the frequencies in, please? A. Yes. (Witness marks exhibit in Frequency Column for item number 12, labeled Q. And the number that you have placed up here is for both the PCR and RFLP. A. That's right. Q. That's because you got the same test results there? A. Yes. Q. And once again, for that RFLP test of the blood drop found in the foyer, A. That's the estimate. Q. Why don't you take that down? (Mr. Foster complies.) MR. LAMBERT: Can I have the next one? Q. (BY MR. LAMBERT) The next board is 297. Entitled "Results of DNA Analysis Before we get to this board, Dr. Cotton, let me ask you, did you also do any A. Yes, we did four substrate controls. Q. And could you explain to us again briefly what a substrate control is? A. Well, it's not again. I didn't explain. Q. All right. Thank you. Somebody else might have. A. Somebody else might have. Essentially, if you have a stain, you would be taking an area of the cloth that Q. And for evidence item 7, which was the blood drop in the driveway at A. Yes, we did. Q. And what result did you get? A. We got no detectable result. Q. So that you could not find any detectable DNA in that substrate? A. That's right. Q. And for evidence item number 12, which was blood drop at the foyer that you A. Yes. Q. What result did you get? A. No detectable DNA. Q. And for evidence item 49, which is one of the blood drops at Bundy we looked A. Yes, we did. Q. And what result did you get? A. No detectable DNA. Q. And for evidence item 56, which was the bloody shoe print at Bundy that we A. Yes, we did. Q. And what result did you get? A. No detectable DNA. Q. Thank you. Now, let's take a look at this board, and this deals with a pair of socks found A. Yes, we did. Q. And what kind of test did you do? A. We did a PMDQ Alpha test and an RFLP test. THE COURT: Mr. Lambert, is this going to take more than 12 minutes; isn't it? MR. LAMBERT: It might, Your Honor. THE COURT: Yeah. Okay. We're going to adjourn until 8:30 tomorrow, ladies and (At 4:00 PM an adjournment was taken until Thursday, November 14, 1996 at 8:30 |