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REPORTER'S DAILY TRANSCRIPT SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA SHARON RUFO, ET AL., N/A, PLAINTIFFS, VS. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, ET AL., DEFENDANTS.
SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER) THE COURT: Morning. I understand counsel have worked out some stipulation with regards to the (The following exhibits were presented to the Court and marked for MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please, we voluntarily eliminated -- of the 18 Ms. With respect to Mr. Goldman, we've eliminated 16 photos voluntarily, and we're Of those ten, Mr. Baker is objecting to five. And those numbers are 1999, 2006, The number on the Ms. Brown photo that's being objected to is 2013. The clerk has been kind enough to pull those photos for you, Your Honor. (Autopsy photograph of Ronald Goldman was marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1986 for (Coroner's photograph of Ronald Goldman was marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1999 for (Autopsy photograph of back of head was marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2000 for (Autopsy photograph of side of head was marked Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2004 for (Autopsy photograph of side of head and upper torso of was marked Plaintiffs' (Pause in proceedings.) THE COURT: I'll hear from defense. MR. BAKER: 352 -- I obviously don't have the photos in front of me because I I think in looking at those photos, obviously the ones that have probative The ones we feel the prejudicial effect far outweighs the probative value that 20 -- 1986 also has exceedingly limited probative value, Your Honor. And this is the one that I was just indicating to you, sir, 2013. And again, if you look at 1999, there are other photos of that particular And this one, I would suggest, is quite gruesome. I don't feel strongly, Your Honor, about 2000, although I don't think that it And again, I don't feel that strongly about 2004. 2006, I think, is very -- would certainly have on 2004 -- and if the Court -- MR. MEDVENE: Your Honor, we tried not to duplicate there's one I'd suggest that The 2013 is the neck wound to Ms. Brown. We've only offered two pictures of Ms. The importance of the neck wound is one important factor in the case that the This shows the wound quite clearly and permits him to explain, where he's able That's really the main picture on Ms. Brown, and one of the only two neck In terms of Mr. Goldman, we've eliminated most of the neck pictures. 1999 is the front of the neck. 2004 is the left side. 2000 is the right side. We can do without 2006, if the Court pleases, in that it's covered in one of The last photo, 1986, is -- is a picture of Mr. Goldman, basically for purpose We would submit, Your Honor -- MR. BAKER: Your Honor, we can block out the faces of these individuals and THE COURT: Okay. As to 2006, the Court will exclude that. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2006 was excluded from presentation to the jury by the THE COURT: The remainder of the objection is overruled. Okay. You ready for testimony? MR. MEDVENE: Yes, Your Honor. MR. GELBLUM: We have to go cover up that one photograph. THE COURT: Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor. MR. MEDVENE: Your Honor, there's one other point that we might take up now, We understand that the defense, Your Honor, that they might, on I might note that we were going to use several mannequins that we listed on the I voluntarily did not use the mannequins, to be confronted with a witness being It would seem to us, it would be inappropriate. We think at a minimum, it We think it's too late to do that. It should have been listed already, and we We might note also, it's not on the exhibit list. The only reason we know about it is because it was being shown up on the board, MR. BLASIER: Your Honor, what we intend to use is not a computer program; it's It's not tailored to this case; it's not specific to the wounds in this case; I'm happy to show these are routine anatomy charts that are used all the time; In our opinion, it's not an exhibit; it's just illustrative evidence, and ask MR. MEDVENE: As I said, we haven't seen it. We think the intent would be to THE COURT: Where's it from? MR. BLASIER: It's called Adam, The Inside Story. It's simply a series of THE COURT: What is it called? MR. BLASIER: Adam, The Inside Story, the 1987 edition. There are many available THE COURT: Adam -- MR. BLASIER: Adam The Inside Story. THE COURT: What's the source? MR. BLASIER: There's another name of the program, Your Honor. The name of the THE COURT: Who made it? MR. BLASIER: Well, we can -- we'll be happy to show it. We can put it up and THE COURT: Does it say who made it? MR. BAKER: Adam Software, Inc., copyright 1996. THE COURT: There's no authorship on it? MR. BAKER: No. If we put it up, it's like taking Gray's Anatomy, if we came up with charts. THE COURT: You put it on; let me see what it is. (CD is played) THE COURT: Not very realistic, is it? (Indicating to photo.) MR. P. BAKER: I can take the fig leaves off. Just a Post-it note, examining areas of the body. THE COURT: How about going to the beginning? MR. P. BAKER: You want to see the original? THE COURT: No. I want to see the credits. No; I mean the first page, cover page. MR. BLASIER: Go to help. THE COURT: You don't have a first page? There it is. There we go. On the right side, Judge. THE COURT: What's the next page? There's no authorship to this thing. Go up to help and about -- There we go. MR. PETROCELLI: Stop it right there. It says it's not warranted to be medically correct. MR. BAKER: Oh, no. MR. BLASIER: We can't back it up; we have to start it again. THE COURT: All right. MR. P. BAKER: You want me to run it again, Judge? THE COURT: Yeah. MR. BAKER: Anatomically correct. MR. MEDVENE: It says, "This product not warranted to be medically accurate." MR. GELBLUM: For general -- MR. MEDVENE: Purposes. MR. BLASIER: Dr. Spitz can say if the stomach is in the wrong place; it's not (Pause in proceedings.) THE COURT: What portions do you intend to use. MR. BLASIER: Pictures of the abdominal area. THE COURT: Show me the exhibits. MR. BAKER: Drop it down. (Indicating to computer.) MR. BAKER: That's one. To the side. THE COURT: Okay. What's next? MR. BAKER: Side view. Now, there we go. That's it. (indicating to screen. THE COURT: Any other view? MR. BAKER: I don't think so. THE COURT: Okay. I'll allow it. (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the THE COURT: Morning. JURORS: Good morning, Your Honor. THE COURT: You may proceed. MR. MEDVENE: Thank you, Your Honor. Dr. Werner Spitz. WERNER SPITZ, called as a witness on behalf of Plaintiffs, was duly sworn and THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause THE WITNESS: I do. THE CLERK: And, sir, if you'd please state and spell your name for the record. THE WITNESS: Werner Spitz, S-P-I-T-Z. THE CLERK: Werner is W-E-R-N-E-R? THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. THE CLERK: Thank you. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. MEDVENE: Q. Good morning, sir. A. Good morning. Q. What's your profession? A. I'm a medical doctor and I'm a pathologist and forensic pathologist. Q. What is a pathologist? A. A pathologist is a physician who has done a residency in the subject of And if a person should die in a hospital, such a pathologist may do an autopsy Q. And what is a forensic pathologist? A. A forensic pathologist is a -- or a forensic pathologist's sub-specialty of Q. What is your educational background that qualifies you to be a forensic A. I graduated from medical school in 1953; I did an internship and a residency I then did another residency in forensic pathology. I took the American Board And I worked in forensic pathology following my residency in Maryland, at the I then went to West Berlin in Germany and worked at the Department of Legal And then I came back to Baltimore and was an assistant medical examiner at the I then was promoted to be the deputy chief medical examiner for that office. I left Maryland for Detroit, Michigan in 1972, to assume the position of chief During this time and to the present time, I'm Professor of Pathology at Wayne When I came to Michigan, I also served and still serve as pathologist for the And as of 1988, I'm also pathologist for the County of Monroe, which is south Q. You had mentioned, Dr. Spitz, that I believe you were board certified in A. Yes; I'm BOARD certified in anatomic pathology and in forensic pathology, by Q. What does it mean to be board certified? A. Board certified means to have undergone a period of training under Q. Have you written various publications dealing with the subject of forensic A. Yes. I've written and published 90 scientific papers which were published in Q. And the title? A. The title is Medicolegal: An Investigation of Death. Q. And did you both edit and write chapters in that book? A. I'm the editor of the book. And I have written approximately, I would say, Q. And did you write any chapters in that book that deal with trauma? A. I think most of the chapter dealing with trauma, I wrote, which means Q. And where, to your knowledge is that textbook used? A. That book is used worldwide. It's the largest English book on the market Q. Are you currently spending any portion of your time writing or editing MR. BAKER: Objection. Relevance. Stipulate to qualifications. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I'm in the process of collecting material for a fourth edition. It Q. You licensed to practice medicine in various states? A. Yes, I'm licensed to practice medicine in Maryland, Virginia, the District Q. Have you been appointed to any United States governmental commissions that A. Yes; I was appointed years ago to a committee that was put together by Three years later, I was again appointed to the committee of the House of Q. Among your duties as a forensic pathologist, do you, on a regular basis, A. Yes, I do. Q. Do you frequently make such determination in cases where you have not A. Yes, I do. Q. Can examinations of the cause of death and circumstances surrounding the A. Yes, it can. Q. And how is that done? A. Well, it -- it is based on material that is generated at the time, and -- Q. That generally include pictures? A. Photographs, autopsy reports, results of various analyses. Q. Is it customary in your field of work for one forensic pathologist, on the A. That is very common, yes. These materials that are generated are really Q. In the course of your career, approximately how many autopsies have you A. Many thousand. I wouldn't be -- I couldn't tell you. But many thousand. Q. Have you also -- A. I've been in the work for 43 years. Q. Have you also supervised thousands of autopsies? A. Yes, I have. Because back in Maryland, I was in charge of the training Of course, when I was chief medical examiner, as chief medical examiner, I Q. Do you still do autopsies yourself? A. Yes, I do. Q. Approximately how many a year? A. I do between 300 and 350 autopsies a year at the present time. Q. Are you presently called upon as a consultant to review the findings of A. Yes, I am. Q. Are you called by plaintiffs' attorneys, prosecutors, as well as defense A. Yes. I get called by attorneys representing both sides in civil cases, that A. Occasionally. Mostly -- many times I evaluate a case and will testify in Q. Other than your official duties that you told us about for the Counties of A. You mean in all cases put together, criminal and civil? Q. Yes. Other than your work for the Counties of Macomb and Monroe. A. I would say that probably somewhat more in favor of the defense in criminal Q. In your experience, do you always give an opinion that sides with the side MR. BAKER: I'm going to object. That's leading and suggestive. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: No. Many -- many times what transpires is, I get a phone call, Other times, I am called back or a letter comes back, "thank you very much," Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Have you testified many times in court as an expert? A. Yes, I have. Q. And the majority of those times, did you personally do the autopsy? A. No. Q. And incidentally, were you present when the autopsy was done in this case? A. No, I was not. Q. Can you tell us, in terms of your time you spend on business now, in your A. As a crude approximation, I would say it might be safe to divide this as a Q. When you're called as a consultant by one side or another, do you have a A. Yes, I do. Q. And how much do you charge an hour? A. I charge $300 an hour for office work. Q. And is that your charge in this case? A. Yes. Q. And you also charge a fee when you travel out of town and go to court? A. Yes, I do. Q. When were you initially hired or retained, approximately, in this matter? A. Sometime early this year. I think it was January of 1996. Q. And did you review certain material? A. Yes, I did. Q. Could you tell us what material you have reviewed in connection with giving A. I have reviewed the coroner's book, the coroner's documents generated, to Q. You review testimony of individuals? A. Various testimony, yes. I've reviewed various previous court trial Q. All right. Let's go to this specific case now, if we can, Dr. Spitz. Based on your review of the material, do you have an opinion as to the cause of A. Yes, I do. Q. And what is that opinion? A. Nicole Brown died as a result of blood loss. Q. Blood loss coming from where? A. Coming from a large wound of the neck, severing the carotid arteries and Q. Could you describe for us the nature of her injuries? If you can, group them. A. Nicole Brown had some superficial injuries of the hands. She had an injury And then a slash across the neck running from left to right, which is a MR. MEDVENE: May I approach, Your Honor, with your permission, to get a board? THE COURT: Go ahead. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, may I move over there to see what he's talking about MR. MEDVENE: I apologize, ladies and gentlemen, for the pictures. Approach the witness, Your Honor? THE COURT: You may. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Dr. Spitz, I'm going to ask you certain questions about a (The instrument herein referred to as A board entitled "Blunt Force Trauma and Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) So if you look AT 375, it has all the photos in it, A. Yes. Q. And if -- MR. BAKER: Counsel, may I just -- (Pause for defense and plaintiff's counsel to converse sotto voce.) (Plaintiffs' counsel approaches witness.) (Plaintiffs' counsel and witness converse sotto voce.) THE WITNESS: I'm fully aware of that. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) I think the best way to do this, Dr. Spitz, is, could you And then I'm going to ask you, with the Court's permission, just to come up to If you could, just demonstrate to the jury what these photos show. Would that A. Yes. Q. All right. A. So if I just go through the injuries depicted in -- and describe them. I might say that there is a scraping, in a crude way of saying, approximately Then, of course, then there are -- then there is a scraping on the back of the Then there are rubbings up against a cement or stucco wall or floor or ground. Q. Are these photos that you're looking at, but that are not on the board? A. They're not on the board. Q. When we get to the ones on the board, if you could, if you wouldn't mind, (Witness approaches large board.) A. On the back of the left hand and over the knuckle of the ring finger -- I'm Yes. On the back of the left hand, over the knuckle of the left ring finger, Then it looks like it's circular. Then on the back of the middle finger, The next picture. Q. Excuse me. The next one is 2002 -- I'm sorry. A. I might just tell you about the following picture, too. Q. The following picture is 2023. A. These two pictures show only that there are no injuries. These are just the Q. Next, sir, I'm going to ask you about -- and you can wait here, if you want. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) This is a little rough, I'm sorry -- "Entitled Sharp Force Dr. Spitz, I'm going to ask you some questions about sharp force injuries. And And I have on the board what's been marked 2013, the picture to the left. And Could you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury and the Court about the A. If I may go through the pictures not on the board first. Q. Yes, that's fine. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of head injury was marked for (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of head injury was marked for (The instrument herein referred to as Autopsy report of head injury was marked (The instrument herein referred to as Autopsy photograph of head injury was (The instrument herein referred to as Autopsy photograph of neck injury was (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of piece of flesh was marked (The instrument herein referred to as Autopsy photograph of head and neck was (The instrument herein referred to as Autopsy photograph of Nicole Brown MR. MEDVENE: May I have the witness stand here. Would that be okay? THE COURT: Yes. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Turn around, if you don't mind. Don't display the pictures. On the top of the head, somewhat to the right -- A. To the right is a stab wound, and it's got a little extension, a superficial There is another wound in the head, somewhat more to the back, also a stab And subsequently there are -- there is another one, a relatively small -- it Q. May the record show that Dr. Spitz is pointing his finger at approximately 5 A. On the -- I think it is the right side of the head, somewhat up above ear And I think it's -- I think -- I say -- I think because the picture is so (Witness indicates to head.) And a bruise means -- a bruise -- people -- some people call it a contusion, Q. Let the record show Dr.` Spitz was showing the area at the top of his head, A. There is -- in the next picture, there is a piece of -- a portion of brain And I am not sure whether it is from under the bruise that I just described in The reason I'm saying this is because the brain in the skull is like jello in a So I don't -- either way, it would get a bruise. So I don't know whether it's Q. On the right side -- I'm sorry. On the left side of the neck, below the left MR. BAKER: I'm sorry, Doctor; could you identify, please, the number of the THE WITNESS: I don't know the numbers. MR. MEDVENE: This photo was on the board. It's 206. MR. BAKER: I don't want to interrupt you, Doctor. MR. MEDVENE: On the -- okay. It's 2015. MR. BAKER: Thanks so much. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Okay. A. This picture, 2015. Q. The one next to it is 2013. A. Okay. 2015 shows four stab wounds arranged in a vertical orientation, meaning one IS They are in a vertical line, up-and-down line. Bottom part is the one that I Then above it is a smaller one, and then above that one is a tiny one, which is And above that one is the fourth stab wound, which is approximately, I would The picture also shows a vast gaping wound, deep wound on the -- as a Q. Can you tell, Dr.` Spitz, from the photographs when you have a weapon, A. The assailant was in back; and the slash runs from left to right. Q. Could you -- with the Court's permission, could you just demonstrate on me (Witness demonstrates on Mr. Medvene.) MR. MEDVENE: May the record show that Dr. Spitz' left hand is across my chin Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) And the wound would be delivered how? A. The wound would be delivered, superficial deep -- MR. BAKER: Let the record reflect that his elbow is about at the left jaw of Doctor -- correct, Doctor? THE WITNESS: I didn't -- MR. BAKER: I was describing where your left hand was in holding Mr. Medvene. THE WITNESS: My left hand is somewhere on the face. I didn't particularly MR. BAKER: Describe where you put it, sir. THE WITNESS: I put it -- I put it roughly across the middle of the face. MR. BAKER: Thank you, sir. The next picture, I believe, is 2013, you said? Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) 2013. A. 1013 (sic) shows the gaping edge of the same wound that I just described, That the wound -- this gaping wound runs upward to the right and ends in the The picture further shows an area which looks like it may be a -- may be And below that, looks like there may be a bruise -- a bruise, black-and-blue Q. Any other photos you haven't described? A. Yes. There is a photo that I did not describe that I mentioned, but I didn't (Witness resumes seat.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Dr.` Spitz, how soon, in your opinion, after the encounter MR. BAKER: I object to the vague, ambiguous -- I mean, is he -- is the question THE COURT: Clarify your question, please. MR. MEDVENE: Yes, Your Honor. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Dr. Spitz, from the first mark or wound on Ms. Brown, to A. I think the slashing of the throat was the terminal event, and I think the Q. And what do you -- what do you base that on? A. On the nature and number of the injuries, and on the recognition that it I mean, how long does it take to make a -- wielding a knife and cutting into Q. And how about whatever stab wounds there are on the neck; how long does that A. Seconds. Q. Show me, please. A. I will stand up here, then. The height is maybe a bit better. (Witness demonstrates.) Q. From your examination, do you have an opinion which way the blood would flow A. In order to tell you which way the blood would flow, I would have to tell (Counsel and witness demonstrate.) A. (Continuing.) She was bent forward, and this was done in this way. She was bent further downward, and the blood then would run downward, would run Thank you. Q. Would the blood, in your opinion, be in large quantity on the assailant? A. No, on the assailant, there would be very little blood, because as the blood (Witness and counsel demonstrate.) A. (Continued.) As this occurs, that -- the cutting occurs, the cut occurs very If the left arm that's holding is above the injury, as it would have to be, the Q. Where's the blood coming from? A. The blood is coming from the two carotid arteries, which are each the Q. Is it coming under pressure or -- A. The arterial pressure is such that if you cut an artery, you would have THE COURT: Okay. The Court will take a ten-minute recess. Don't talk about the case. Don't form or express any opinion. THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. (Recess.) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the THE COURT: Okay. The audience, first row by the jury box, there's a complaint You may proceed. DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. MEDVENE: Q. Dr. Spitz, when we concluded, you made a reference to the arteries and blood Were you making a specific reference to this case or arteries in general? A. No, I was answering your question about pressure in the arteries. And this This is not applicable to this case at all. In other words, yes, there is a lot Q. Now, in this case, in your opinion, from what you've seen and viewed, where A. She was -- maybe you can help me. She was bent forward; I think she was (demonstrating). She was even closer, I This is where the blood went. The blood shot downward because she was down like Q. And her head was pulled out? A. And her head was pulled back. Q. How? A. (Witness demonstrates.) MR. BAKER: With the left hand underneath his nose? THE WITNESS: Either that way or by the hair. Somehow, the neck was taut; otherwise, you wouldn't get this kind of a gaping Q. Okay. Thank you. (Witness assists Mr. Medvene to stand up.) Q. Let's move, if we might, to Mr. Goldman. Based on your review of the -- of the material you previously described, do you A. Mr. Goldman died as a result of blood loss. The cause of death is the same Q. You say the cause of death is the same. What do you mean by that? A. Blood loss. Q. Could you describe for us his injuries and put them in groups, if you could. A. Ron -- Ron Goldman has injuries that can be grouped into four categories. He I know it looks wide and gaping. This was also not a very devastating wound, because the there are no major Then there is a set of wounds in the neck area, and one of them is a stab wound Thirdly, there is there are two wounds in the right side of the chest with a Lastly, there is a wound in the left flank, (witness indicates) here, somewhere Q. Left side above your belt, approximately five inches? A. Well, I wear my pants -- down in where like I'm showing. Q. Yes, sir. A. It's a short way above the hip bone in the back. Q. Yes. A. That's the last wound. This wound is not very large in the skin, but it is the devastating wound that When I mention these wounds, I would like to emphasize that my listing of these Q. Were there wounds on both sides of the body? A. There were wounds on both sides of the body. The wound that I named the Q. What accounts for wounds on both sides of the body? A. Well, there's movement. There is movement. There is an attempt to get away Q. You said that you weren't putting the wounds in any sequence when you listed Do you have any opinion on the nature of the struggle, in some general sense, A. The wound of the thigh and many of the superficial, or maybe most of the In other words, that's how it started. That's during the active portion of the The wound to the left flank, I cannot say exactly when it happened, but it The aorta is a garden-hose-diameter pipe, tube. The aorta comes directly out of Q. When you use the words vertebral column -- A. The vertebral column is the backbone. And within the aorta, with a is the large-caliber artery, there's very large And so, there are two holes in the aorta. There is one that is described in the I measured it on a picture and I found that it is indeed five-eighths of an And the reason I'm saying that this wound was inflicted early on, is because And the reason that there is so little blood in the chest is because the blood But as soon as there is a hole in the aorta, the pressure drops, just as -- Q. We'll talk about the aorta a little more in a moment. But you mentioned a lot of blood coming out. Is that blood going out externally A. No. Most -- most of Mr. Goldman's blood was internal bleeding. And the Q. We'll talk more about it in a moment. Let me go on to talk first in terms of the struggle about blunt-force trauma, And if you would, look at all the pictures, please. A. (Witness complies.) MR. MEDVENE: Excuse me; I'm not going to put a board up. I wonder if you can look at exhibits 1991, 93, -- excuse me -- 1991, 1993, 384, A. Mr. Goldman had, I believe, two stab wounds in the head. Again, small; I do not have the same numbers that you have indicated. (The instrument herein referred to as a document with six photographs, (Counsel approaches witness stand.) A. (Continuing.) Then, there is -- there are some cuts and bruises and It's a superficial scraping, where you can see that the uppermost layer of the The epidermis is what a snake has. We are covered with a very thin membrane But if the death follows in rapid succession, very quickly, then there is no It's the same thing as what you sustain when you fall and scuff your knee, and So having said this, there is a scraping like this on the back of Mr. Goldman Q. Beyond the -- on the left of the back, looking -- A. On the left. Q. -- looking forward, about 9 o'clock? A. Yes. Then, there are scrapings on the left wrist and hand over the fingers. And over The epidermis, as seen on the picture, IS hanging from one end, and that is due There are some other scrapes on the wrist, in total, about two; and then one On the area between the right index finger and middle finger, there's a cut. There is on the front -- on the front, I mean this area that I'm showing -- the Q. Let me -- you have one more? A. On the left hand, first on the thumb, there is a scraping, again, with some On the web of the thumb, there is a cut, and on the side of the palm, in All the cuts in here are defensive wounds. "Defensive wound" means that the Q. Let's move -- let's move, if we can, to what we've marked as a board -- as I want you to look at two photos and describe them. One is 2001 and one is Could you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury and the Court, what that Do you have 2001 and 2002 before you? A. I don't know with a ones those are. (The instrument herein referred to as a document entitled "Sharp Force Injuries (Counsel approaches witness stand.) Q. Um-hum, um-hum; yes. Those two. A. These are two superficial, small stab wounds in the head with a do not Q. And I'm going to ask you now about certain sharp-force injuries, and I'm Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) You have certain photos in front of you, Dr. Spitz. I (The instrument herein referred to as A board containing six photographs, THE WITNESS: You are talking about the ones that are on the board? Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Yeah, the ones on the board and the others that are part of A. The left lower picture. Q. It's all right -- I think it's okay with the Court if you come up. MR. PETROCELLI: Take the pointer, Doctor. THE WITNESS: The left lower picture shows a large gaping cut, stab wound, There is another stab wound -- also a stab wound, and they come together, see, When a stab wound is made, the opening is much larger, often, than the knife -- Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) The doctor was speaking about Exhibit 2004. A. That's the reason why these wounds look as large as they are. They are stab And there are different superficial cuts around the -- or below and behind the Q. You're going now to exhibit 1999? A. The Exhibit 99? Q. 1999. A. 1999 shows, again, the same stab wound as I've indicated on the left side of Q. Direct your attention now to Exhibit 2000. A. Exhibit 2000 shows one of the superficial stab wounds of the skull -- of the The stab/cut, stab, stab/cut, because there is stabbing and movement and "Superficial" means just involving the skin. Q. If you'll remain there for a moment, Doctor, I'm going to put another board (Counsel displays board entitled Sharp-Force Injuries to Left Flank, Left Thigh Q. This is board is entitled Sharp-force Injuries to Left Flank, Left Thigh and I direct your attention to that board, Doctor, which is Exhibit 386, and ask if (The instrument herein referred to as Board entitled Sharp-Force Injuries to (The instrument herein referred to as a side view photograph of a man's body THE WITNESS: This is Ron Goldman's flank area and lower chest area on the left Here, this is a table he is on. This is his arm. So you are seeing this area Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Excuse me, Doctor. You said this is the table. He saw -- he A. This. Q. -- metal from the right of the picture, over about four, five inches, and A. Yes. This is his armpit up here. This is his pubic area down here. This is his left These are all -- they all look like blunt injury. Here's a scraping, like a This is not a stab wound. Here is a black-and-blue mark, a superficial bruise. Q. That's to the right, about -- A. On the back of the hand. Q. Yeah. A. On the back of the left hand and over the back of the forearm -- I say back And the reason that this picture is important is because this is the Q. On the diagram, it's about a quarter of an inch, a half an inch above the A. It is about, yeah, three-quarters of an inch above the blue marker, the This is the stab wound that went into the aorta, the picture next and below it. Q. Excuse me. That's Exhibit 1990? A. 1990 shows the cut in the front of the left thigh. For orientation sake, here is the hand. Q. You were pointing over to the upper right-hand corner? A. Yes; the upper right-hand corner shows the -- some fingers, and below it -- Q. You said Mr. Brown; you meant Mr. Goldman? A. Mr. Goldman. (Witness indicates to his own body.) And it's a gaping wound, but it doesn't bleed very much. You can see the skin, Q. What's 1990? A. 1990 shows -- Q. Excuse me. That picture is 1987. (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of a man's body was marked A. 1987 shows the back of Mr. Goldman's body, undressed. The head is shaved in And there is the slash of the back of the right side of the neck, which is seen And then there are two bruises over the middle of the back, of the middle of And because of the vertebral bodies having a little knob in the back, this is And then, more significantly is the exact location of the stab wound that And that is a stab wound of the back of the left flank. And it is not a very Q. All right. Direct your attention to 1989. A. 1989 is a picture of the right side of Mr. Goldman, showing the lower Q. That's -- I'm sorry sir. That's at the top of the picture? A. That's at the top of the picture. Of what number? Q. 1989. A. 1989. Two stab wounds in the lower chest, roughly about where my hand is showing The rest of this only shows some scrapings, superficial scrapings, with a, as (The instrument herein referred to as an autopsy photograph of a man's body Q. Directing your attention to 1986. A. 1986 shows Mr. Goldman dressed with shirt, blue jeans and shoes, sneakers, Mr. Goldman was upright when this happened, as is evident by the distribution Q. And the exhibit I showed you earlier, was that Exhibit 1990? A. Yes. I was pointing to this. This is a slash and this is the bleeding from (Indicating.) Q. Go to the picture on the far right; that's 1977. And can you tell us what A. 1977 is -- shows the cut or the stab wound in the aorta. And the aorta has I measured it and found it to be five-eighths of an inch. The other report The aorta shows two little blood vessels down below the cut with a are the And what is significant is that the soft tissues, the fat and other soft (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of flesh was marked for Q. How do you know that? A. Well, because this is all brown and -- or brownish-blue from blood. The Q. And this -- this photo was taken by the coroner's office? A. This photograph was taken by the coroner's office. All these photographs Q. You mentioned infiltrated. What was infiltrated? A. Because of the cut in the aorta, the blood came out and spilled into this Q. You say this whole area. What do you mean "this whole area?" The whole area A. The whole area that is shown, yes, that is shown on the picture. In fact, you can look through the cut and see the other side of the aorta, and MR. MEDVENE: Okay. Thank you, Doctor. THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we'll adjourn till 1:30. Don't talk about the case; don't form or express any opinions. Thank you. (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of wound was (The instrument herein referred to as a side view photograph of body was marked (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of portion of arm was marked (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of arm and hand on torso was (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of hand resting next to body (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of hand was marked for (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of hand was marked for (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of man's hand was marked for (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of man's hand was marked for (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of head and wounds was (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of head and wounds was (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of hand was marked for (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of hand was marked for (The instrument herein referred to as a two-paged chart was marked for (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of finger and ruler was (The instrument herein referred to as autopsy photograph of hand was marked for (The instrument herein referred to as an autopsy photograph of arm and hand was (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of a man and child's hand (At 11:55 a.m., recess was taken until 1:30 p.m., this same day.) SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER) (Jurors resume their respective Seats.) WERNER SPITZ, the witness on the stand at the time of the recess, having been THE COURT: You may proceed. DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) BY MR. MEDVENE: Q. How long did the struggle take between Ron Goldman and the person that A. It is my opinion that this struggle took around a minute, give or take. Q. And what is the basis for your opinion that it took a minute, give or take? A. Primarily, the nature of the injuries, the injury in the left flank was one A person loses ability to stand up, loses ability to think, becomes woozy and The rest of the injuries, the superficial injuries in the fight, you have to And when the knife is wielded there and you use it to stab, there may be a So, yeah, there are a number of -- or a significant number of superficial So you have to understand that there is not a lapse of time between wounds. It Q. Let me put on the board, a chart. (Counsel displays cross-sectioned diagram of torso.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Would you, with the Court's permission, would like to A. May I approach, Your Honor. THE COURT: You may. MR. MEDVENE: Exhibit numbers 2025. You have it. MR. GELBLUM: He has it. (Indicating to pointer.) MR. MEDVENE: Sorry. MR. BAKER: Is there a question pending? MR. MEDVENE: Yes. I asked what the chart depicts? THE WITNESS: When we speak about the abdomen -- MR. BAKER: I'm going to move to strike as nonresponsive and ask the Court have THE COURT: Describe what the chart is. THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. THE COURT: Yes. Describe the chart. THE WITNESS: The chart depicts or the chart shows a cut through the middle of In other words, here is the tab wound of the left flank. This chart shows the The front compartment, which is shown in green, contains the liver, the Q. Where "L" is? A. Where "L" is. "L" stands for lumbar because it's the lumbar level of the And the stab wound goes through the muscle and into the aorta and through the It goes into the aorta, makes a half-inch cut and comes out of the aorta, makes Q. Does the tip -- A. And the tip of the blade, which already I said earlier in the morning, that Q. Ronald Goldman? A. I'm sorry, Ron Goldman was made by the tip of the blade. So it is a knife Q. Does that account -- A. That accounts for three ounces of blood in this large cavity which contains Q. Does that cavity, as a general rule, have any blood in it? A. Normally, there's no blood in there. Normally, there's no free blood Q. By free blood, we mean what? A. Blood that is outside of blood vessels. Q. Okay. Go ahead. A. Except if there's an injury. When the aorta was injured, you can see the The aorta is situated to the left of the vertebral column. The wound track from the left flank into the aorta was measured at five and a Q. By wound track, what do we mean? A. The track from the line of the knife, through the tissues, from the entrance All this space here lined the sac containing the organs, was filled with blood This area behind the front compartment contained quarts of blood. Liters of Q. Now, to the right is -- could you make -- A. To the right. Q. Do you relate the drawing to the right, to what you're explaining to the A. To the right is an enlargement of this area here. Q. This area? A. This area meaning the area where the knife has gone through the aorta, comes Q. So -- A. This whole area here, in medical language is called the peritoneal cavity Q. And all of the blood then? A. All the blood accumulated in the back compartment, in the compartment behind Q. Does the -- does the chest cavity have any blood? A. No. The chest cavity has a few -- has maybe a fifth of an ounce of fluid Q. So all of the blood went to the area you described? A. All the blood, as soon as the aorta was cut, head into the space behind the Q. In terms of the chest cavity, does it generally have blood or you're talking A. The chest cavity has no blood. There is no free blood anywhere in the body Q. Now -- A. When I say free blood I mean loose blood, blood that's shed. Q. Now, you mentioned and explain to us the hundred milliliters to 200 in the A. 100 ml is described at the autopsy. One milliliter means three and a third Q. How about the jugular vein? You had mentioned earlier that there was some A. The left jugular vein was cut. In fact, the left jugular vein was severed. Q. Now -- A. The jugular vein is in the neck. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, can we go back to question and answer forum like we've THE COURT: It would be nice. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Yes, sir. Would -- is the bleeding from the jugular vein A. No comparison. Q. Could you? A. No comparison at all. Q. Can you explain the difference to us? A. The carotid artery being an artery that has a lot of pressure, the heart -- Q. Yes. A. I'm not much of an artist. This is going to be very crude. Here is the heart. The heart has two sides, the right side and the left side. When the heart pumps, it squeezes, which when it squeezes again, it has to When the heart pumps, it pushes blood on, under great pressure into the aorta. The blood has to come back to the heart in order to be ejected by the aorta. It The veins, whereas the arteries run from the heart, the veins run to the heart. The wall on the right side of the heart is very thin because there is no need And in the lower extremities and the abdomen and chest, it comes back because Veins suck, arteries eject under great pressure. Therefore, the pressure in the jugular vein is very, very low. In fact, it can So there is -- When the jugular vein is cut, the bottom part of the jugular Q. Did the cut in Mr. Goldman's jugular vein cause outward bleeding, in your A. Very little of outward bleeding for two reasons. First of all, there's no pressure. There's some outward trickle maybe, but Q. Is there -- A. And I realize that the muscles are cut, but there not being any pressure Q. Is there any description in the autopsy report of a large amount of blood in A. No. There's no description. There's description that there is blood along Q. Any photographs to indicate the swelling, or evidence of swelling, showing A. No. Q. Of the neck or chest? A. No. There are abundant pictures of the neck and chest area and there is no Q. Is the cause of death in this case a large amount of blood that came from a A. No. There's only one cause of death here and the cause of death here is the Q. How long before Mr. Goldman would become incapacitated and die if he A. Mr. Goldman would have been incapacitated and collapsed as he bleed. He's MR. BAKER: Move to strike as nonresponsive as to time, Your Honor. THE COURT: Strike -- Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) About -- A. Consequently. MR. BAKER: Could we get an answer to the question, not consequently. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Approximately how long would it take for him to die? A. It may take him several minutes to die, but he is dying from the moment the Q. Is there, in your opinion, because of the nature of the bleeding you MR. BAKER: Asked and answered. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: No. Because Mr. Goldman did not bleed externally to a great extent. The bleeding in the thigh bled into the pants, and stained the pants. There is And if it does, there would be splatters and not tremendous large amounts of Q. Let me move to a different area. We would mark the drawing, Your Honor, as next in order, which I believe is THE CLERK: 2161. MR. MEDVENE: 2161. THE COURT: So marked. (The instrument herein referred to as drawing of heart done by Dr.'Spitz was (BY MR. MEDVENE) If I might move to another area. Do you have an opinion as to whether all of the injuries inflicted on Ms. Brown A. Yes. I'm of the opinion that all of the injuries of both victims could have Q. And what do you base that on? A. First of all, I base that on the fact that the injuries on Nicole took 15 Once she was cut in the throat, they -- she was inactive. She was collapsed. Having said that my opinion is that one assailant caused these two -- The Q. Is there any evidence, in your judgment, that more than one knife was used? A. No. The injuries are totally compatible with a single knife. Q. Could all of the injuries be caused by a single edged knife? A. Yes. Q. What is a single edge knife? A. A single edged knife is a knife -- may I go to the board? Q. Yes. (Witness draws another diagram.) A. A single edge knife is a knife that has a sharp edge on one side and not the A double edged knife is one that has a sharp edge on one side and a sharp edge Q. Dr. Spitz, you discussed the altercation, the fight between the assailant MR. BAKER: Calls for speculation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: In the course of the struggle, there is holding of the victims, During -- and this is a desperate attempt on the part of the victim. During this desperate attempt, injuries from fingernails are likely to be Q. Would you put on the board please exhibit 171. THE COURT: Who you talking to? MR. MEDVENE: I'm sorry, Your Honor. Would you please put on the TV monitor, (Exhibit 171 is displayed.) (The instrument herein referred to as a photo description card of O.J. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Photo of Mr. Simpson's finger. Can you look at that A. I observed the middle finger with an injury over the -- roughly, middle of And there is a second injury in this area here. Q. I just placed before you, the actual photos. A. Yes. And there is a second injury which is not terribly well visible on this Q. That's above the nail? A. I'm sorry? Q. It's above the nail. I'm trying to describe it for the record. A. No, it's not. It's below the nail. Q. Below the nail? A. But it's on the finger. It's right here. There's one injury here, there's Q. Let's go to 172. (Exhibit 172 is displayed.) A. This is the picture that was originally shown to me, and it shows the same Q. When you said 187, that would be 171, sir? A. 171. Q. Yes, sir. A. It's the same area and the same injury. Q. All right. There was reference made yesterday to exhibit 714 and 715 and, (Mr. Foster complies.) Q. Shown yesterday, I believe, during Dr. Huizenga's testimony. I'm going to place a copy of that in front of you, placing four pictures in Let's start with that and then what I'm going to ask you to do, is circle those A. Let me be sure that I understood. You want me to explain the picture? Q. Yes. A. On the monitor and then circle what I've talked about on the picture on the Q. Yes, sir. A. Okay. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, this is the same picture he just talked about. This is THE COURT: Overruled. MR. BAKER: The same cuts. I have an objection. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: This picture shows the same injury that we have talked about, Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Okay. A. And they show less swelling and more detail of the wounds. Because the The detail of the wounds is noticeable to a much better -- in a much better You see the curvature on both, which is compatible with the curvature of the Q. Would you please circle -- A. I did. Q. May we mark this document 2162, Your Honor? (The instrument herein referred to as a photo of hand with wounds was marked THE COURT: So marked. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Going to display quickly on the screen what you marked, and (Witness indicates with pointer.) Q. Yes, sir. Let's go, if we can, to another photo introduced yesterday, number A. This is a different mark. This is a different mark. These are two different Q. Could you identify? A. And again, here, this is -- this is one. And this is the other. Q. The one is the one you said was the one -- was about where on the ruler? A. The one on this would be at the level of two-and-a-half inches. Q. All right. A. Two-and-a-half inches. Q. All right. A. Two-and-a-quarter to two-and-a-half inches. Q. And the other one you pointed out? A. And the other one is at one and three-quarters, approximately. Q. And what? A. So -- Q. What do those marks -- A. Those are, again, you'll have the curvature here. You'll have the raggedness Q. What are those marks? A. Those are fingernail marks. Q. Could those marks be from a cut glass? A. No. Those are not cuts. These are injuries that were caused by -- not by Q. We'll mark it 2163. Would you be good enough to circle on what you have, I A. Initial it? Q. Yes, sir. Q. I'm going to ask you, with the Court's permission, if you could also initial (Witness complies.) Q. Thank you. Could you put on the screen, may we mark this 2163, Your Honor? Would you put 2163 on the board, please. (The instrument herein referred to as Photo with circles drawn by witness was Q. Are those what you described as fingernail marks? A. Yes. Q. Let me put back on the board for a moment, 2162. (Exhibit 2162 is displayed.) Q. I'm sorry, let me put back on the TV screen, the monitor, 2162. And I ask you if what you have marked there in your picture, those marks could A. No. These are not glass cuts. Q. Thank you. A. These are not sharp injuries. These are not caused by a glass and these are Q. If we can -- thank you. If we can go now to number 8 of 715. Another picture of Mr. Simpson's finger that was shown yesterday. (Number 8 of Exhibit 715 is displayed on screen.) Q. Do you see any marks on his finger that you could identify for the jury? A. Yes. There are two gouges. Gouges mean, where the upper layer of the skin Q. Which is this one? A. This one is on the rib of the thumb, which is where I'm showing now These two are scooped out gouges by fingernail marks. They are typical for Q. Those two marks consistent with being a cut which glass? A. No. These are not glass cuts. Q. Would you be good enough, mark on the laser print before you, what we've A. (Witness complies.) Q. And initial it, please. (The instrument herein referred to as a photo of flesh with marks was marked Q. Put that up and identify, for purposes of the record, what those marks are, A. Yes. Yes, sir. (Displayed photo with circle marks by witness.) Q. Are there any photographs you -- Strike that. You have talked earlier about a text that you edited and wrote? A. Yes. Q. In that text, are there any photographs of fingerprints or -- excuse me. A. Fingernail marks. Q. Fingernail marks? A. Yes, there are. Q. And have you -- strike that. We'll put on the board -- put on the board what's been marked 1973. MS. BLUESTEIN: Screen. THE COURT: Excuse me, we'll put on the monitor what's been marked as 1973. (Exhibit 1973 is displayed.) (The instrument herein referred to as Photo of hand with fingernail marks was A. This is a hand with fingernail marks. This is not in focus. MR. BAKER: Wait a minute. I'm going to object to this. Take that off the THE COURT: Okay. Take it off. (The following proceedings were held at the bench:) MR. BAKER: Evidence Code 721, he can't use on direct, his book and his photos. MR. MEDVENE: Well, they're in the exhibit book. They've been there for a while. MR. BAKER: Can't do it, Your Honor. You can't use -- you can't use your own In fact, the Evidence Code, the fact they're in the evidence book is THE COURT: What's the foundation for the photo? MR. MEDVENE: Going to lay the foundation that he's taken the photo. He's aware THE COURT: What's the foundation for the photo? MR. MEDVENE: His knowledge of the taking of the photo and the source of the THE COURT: Excuse me. Did he take the photo? MR. MEDVENE: I'll have to ask him. THE COURT: You don't know, do you? MR. MEDVENE: I really don't, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. (The following proceedings were resumed in open court in the presence of the THE COURT: Ten minute recess, ladies and gentlemen. Don't talk about the case, (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the THE COURT: There's an objection pending. MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please, the picture was taken under the supervision MR. BAKER: I don't think that's adequate foundation. Number one, under 721 of the Evidence Code, he cannot be examined, and his Number two, his supposition as to how somebody was struggling is exactly the THE COURT: You may inquire. MR. MEDVENE: Do it now, sir? THE COURT: Well, yeah, before the jury comes in, so I can decide. MR. MEDVENE: Yes, sir. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Dr. Spitz, with respect to the picture, could you tell us A. Your Honor, I was the chief medical examiner. And the picture -- we had a THE COURT: Okay. Further foundation as to its relevance? Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) And the particular victim, or the particular hand that was A. This is a strangulation case, where an assailant had his arm around the MR. MEDVENE: That's our foundation. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) What does the photo intend to illustrate? A. Well, you see, this is a textbook, and it's meant to depict typical injuries Q. And? A. Fingernail marks may be difficult to diagnose, especially for somebody who Q. And what is the similarity, if any, between the photograph of a different A. Well, I think there is considerable similarity. Q. If you want, we can put it back up. A. Well, I know what it shows, but I think there is considerable similarity. Fingernail marks may have different configurations. Some fingernail marks look MR. MEDVENE: May I approach, Your Honor? THE COURT: You may. (BY MR. MEDVENE) I place before you -- oh, I'm sorry. (Defense counsel reviews book.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) I'm placing before you, your book, Medicolegal And could you tell the Court the heading and the purpose. A. The -- what do you mean by "purpose?" Q. The purpose of those photos. A. Oh. The purpose of the photos is to show fingernail marks resembling gouges, Q. And are those the photos that we put on the board -- A. Yes. Q. -- on the monitor? Is that one of the photos? A. One the photos, yes. Q. And are you using it just for an illustrative purpose? A. That's correct. MR. MEDVENE: That's our foundation. THE COURT: Well, the foundation is, I think, still lacking as to how this Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) How do you know it's a fingernail mark? A. Well, for several reasons. First of all, it looks like fingernail marks. Secondly, there is no other type of trauma. Thirdly, we know how the strangulation occurred. I cannot, as I sit here, tell THE COURT: On that basis, I think foundation is lacking. Sustain the objection. MR. MEDVENE: All right, Your Honor. THE COURT: Bring the jury back. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, on the basis of what was just related, I would move to He obviously relied on what's in his book. There's inadequate foundation to THE COURT: That motion is denied. This witness is testifying as an expert. Whatever experience and basis on which (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Dr. Spitz, before the break, I inadvertently, on 2164 -- MR. BAKER: I object, Your Honor. He did not refer to it as a finger. MR. MEDVENE: Well. THE COURT: Overruled. Just start. MR. MEDVENE: Okay. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Could you tell me, did you have an opportunity, Doctor, to A. Yes. Q. And could you just -- whatever I called it, could you tell me what it is? MR. BAKER: I object. He didn't call it anything. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: The error was mine. I attributed the gouges on the web side of the hand, and it is the opposite Q. Okay. And? A. And they show -- you see the edge of the -- of a bone here, and under the Q. Can you see the whole hand from the picture? A. No, you cannot. That's where I made the error, because it's too close. Q. Place on the board number 2, I believe, from 715, and ask if you would (Photo displayed.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) This is Mr. Simpson's hand, discussed yesterday by Dr. Can you tell the jury rather, the Court, if you see any marks on Mr. Simpson's A. Yes, I see marks. I see little -- a row of little superficial injuries, Q. Can you please circle them on the copy in front of you and initial them. (The witness complies.) MR. MEDVENE: Exhibit 2165, Your Honor. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Can you give us your opinion of the cause of those marks? A. These are my view of fingernail marks, too. Q. Why? What causes you to say that? A. These are little superficial gouges. And the reason that there are many is Q. Dr. Spitz, in your opinion, would one that causes fingernail marks on MR. BAKER: Leading. Suggestive. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Do you have an opinion whether or not the person who A. No. MR. BAKER: Leading. Suggestive, as well, Your Honor. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Why not? A. Well, because in the case of gouges, there's a substantial amount of skin. It remains suspended; it does not get any blood; it dries up and falls off in a MR. MEDVENE: Would you put on the board 826, please. Q. Doctor, I show you a picture that's been previously marked. It's of Mr. I ask you to look at that picture. If we can narrow it down or get a close-up of Mr. Simpson's hands. (Photo displayed.) Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) Do you see on Mr. Simpson's hand in this picture, taken A. No, I don't see any here. If you make it less magnified, there are no -- there are no marks here, either. Q. I have nothing further, Your Honor. THE COURT: Cross-examine. MR. BAKER: Put up 2165. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER: Q. Those are -- all of those marks that you've circled, Dr. Spitz, are about (Exhibit 2165 displayed.) THE WITNESS: Well, they're not very large, though. Q. (BY MR. MEDVENE) About the size of a head of a pin, right? A. I don't know. I can't tell you whether they're the size of a head of a pin There's no scale on this. I could say that they are small, but I cannot tell Q. And in virtually -- as I understand your testimony, virtually every cut, A. Well, those I saw are, in my opinion, fingernail marks. Q. And this obviously was a sharp fingernail because they're very little cuts You understand the question? A. No. Q. What was it, a pointed fingernail that skipped across the top of Mr. A. No. Q. All right. Now, in terms of your opinions relative to these fingernail marks, there was A. Yes. Q. And the only thing that was found under any fingernail in this case, was A. Yes. MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence, Your Honor. Move to THE COURT: Counsel asked the question; the witness answered. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, Dr. Spitz, as I understand it, you have spent A. Yes. Q. And you bill $3,000 per day? A. For what? Q. For doing what you're doing today? A. For testifying in Los Angeles, yes. Q. Or testifying in Detroit, Michigan? A. No. Q. Now, you would agree you're well compensated for your forensic pathology MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Calls for conclusion, Your Honor. I mean vague, THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I don't know if my testimony's well compensated or not. This is my Q. Well, It's your view that forensic pathologists take sides in a case, is it MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Vague, ambiguous as to what point in time, Your Honor, THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I don't know if that's the right way of putting it. You don't take Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Well, let me read what you told the Detroit News on October Do you recall saying that? A. Can you read me the whole sentence. Q. I'd be happy to. A. Or could you let me see it, perhaps. Q. Let me read it to you. A. I'd like to -- if you don't mind, I'd like to see it. Q. Did you -- MR. MEDVENE: Excuse me. Could we have a copy, Mr. Baker, of what -- THE COURT: If you're going to read from something, show it to counsel. MR. BAKER: Sure. (Counsel reviews document.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You have -- while they're looking at that, you have -- you A. I've given some, yes. Q. And you have been quoted in the L.A. Times? A. I've been quoted in the Detroit paper. Q. And others, true? A. I don't know where I've been quoted. Those I read, I can tell you, but then, Q. All right. Now, in terms of this case, you would agree that you were taking sides relative A. No. Q. All right. And you wouldn't be taking sides, correct? You just, in looking at the evidence, giving your best independent judgment of A. I believe that I looked at the evidence in this case and interpreted it the Q. Fair enough. Now, you told the -- let me get the name of the paper correct -- The Detroit MR. MEDVENE: Excuse me. MR. BAKER: -- October 17 -- MR. MEDVENE: Your Honor, this is out of context. The two sentences before -- MR. BAKER: Don't need an argument. THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. BAKER: I'm sorry. THE COURT: Excuse me. You may rehabilitate your witness at a later time if you MR. MEDVENE: But he's reading from a document unfairly. He's -- if you could THE COURT: Excuse me. This is cross-examination. And let's proceed. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You told the Detroit News on October 17, 1994, in talking That's what you told the Detroit News, correct? A. I couldn't tell you; I don't know. Maybe I did tell them that; maybe I did Q. Have you ever written to -- the Detroit News is a paper in your hometown -- A. Yes. Q. -- is it not? A. And -- Q. Do you read it? A. No; I read The Free Press. Q. I'm sorry? A. I read The Free Press. Q. Okay. Have you ever indicated to the Detroit News or The Free Press that you've been MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please, may we approach? This is unfair. He's quoting MR. BAKER: You know -- MR. MEDVENE: -- out of context. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, his characterization of unfair is improper. THE COURT: Excuse me. He's making a speaking objection and you're making a Objection's overruled. Let's get on with it and finish this. MR. MEDVENE: Yes, sir. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, in this case, you talked about being -- being part of A. Yes. Q. The chairman of that committee was Michael Baden? A. Yes. Q. You know who Michael Baden is, do you not, Dr. Spitz? A. Yes. Q. You're aware he was called by the defense in the criminal case? A. Yes. Q. And you are aware that he is going to be called by the defense in this case? MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Relevance, materiality, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, let's talk just a little bit about you were retained in A. I think it was January. Q. And from that day to this day, have you prepared a single note relative to A. No, I have not. Q. Not one single piece of paper, you will agree, that you have prepared A. That's correct. MR. MEDVENE: Objection. Asked and answered. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, Doctor, how much blood is contained in the average human A. I don't know. I suppose it varies. And there is no complete agreement, I Q. Doctor, isn't it true that there's eight to ten quarts of blood in a human A. That may be. Q. So, eight quarts is two gallons? A. Eight quarts is two gallons. Q. And in this particular case, you are of the view that Ms. Nicole Brown There was 15 seconds or less between the first and the last wound, correct? A. Yes. Q. Now, sir, will you put that -- Phil will you put that card -- well, never You would agree, Dr. Spitz, that the way the human body functions, is that for A. Yes. Q. And what occurs is that the heart pumps blood in a closed system, if there A. Yes. Q. And what occurs is, as we inhale, we send oxygen down into our lungs; the A. Yes. Q. And if, in fact, we do not get oxygenated blood to our body for a period of A. I suppose, yes. Q. And so the system -- A. There -- excuse me. Though, that is only partially correct, because what Q. Well, Doctor, let me just see if maybe we can get on the same wavelength. If I take and put a tourniquet around my arm at the forearm level and tighten A. No, it's not going to turn blue; it's going to turn white. It's only going Q. Doctor, it's going to have blood in it before you ever put the tourniquet on A. Well, it's got blood in it now. Q. That's what I mean. A. As a result of that, my hand is not blue. At least I don't think so. Q. Well, I agree with you; I don't think it is, because it's got oxygenated In any event, Doctor, let me move on. The blood customarily is depicted -- our arterial blood flow is red in your A. Yes. Q. And what occurs is that, after the oxygenation has been used to nourish the A. Yes. Q. And when that occurs, if we take and have a situation where we are One is that the heart rate increases dramatically, true? A. Yes. Q. The other is that the blood vessels constrict; that is, the aorta and the A. There is a constriction which raises the blood pressure. The amount of blood What happens is, there's a regulatory system in the body, and that regulatory Q. Doctor, that's actually exactly what I was getting at. If you take a person that has a blood pressure and -- let's talk about systolic A. Yes; that's what I mentioned earlier. Q. And if the systolic blood pressure is 110, that means that the blood A. Yes. Q. And that is the pressure that will increase during a time of fright or when A. I just said that the blood pressure rises. Q. And so you can get a blood pressure over 200 at the time that you are, in A. Yes. Q. True? A. Yes. Q. Now, the blood pressure, when there is a cut in the enclosed system that we, A. It comes out with great force; however, at the same time, as you correctly Q. Doctor, if we take a hose and we use a three-quarter-inch hose, and we have A. No doubt. But the hose hasn't got a regulatory mechanism, nor have I ever (Laughter.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Well, I certainly hope not. Have you talked to many hoses? A. No, not yet. Q. Okay. (Laughter.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Be nice to me, now. Now, doctor, In terms of the -- when a person is killed, after the person is A. That is only partially correct. If I may explain. Yes, we do not bruise. However, if there is an injury that causes blood vessels So although there is no bruising -- the word "bruising" would be incorrect to Q. All right. And you have, as I understand it, read and reviewed the autopsy reports in some A. Yes. Q. And as I understand it -- strike that. Let me ask you this: You seem to have pretty certain opinions on exactly how A. How long before the first wound? When you say "first wound" what do you mean, major wound, or do you mean a Q. Any wound, sir. A. I don't have any idea. Q. So you -- A. Before there was contact, I don't know what transpired. Q. Okay. So I want to be clear, then, that you have no idea how long the A. I have -- I only can make a judgment for the duration of the period that Q. Okay. So the answer to my question is, you don't have an opinion as to how A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, your view, as I understand it, is that Nicole Brown Simpson was killed A. That is my opinion. Q. And your view is that the reason she was killed first is because if she That's what you testified to in your deposition, true? A. Yes. Q. Okay. So -- and you believe from the first wound to the last wound was 15 seconds; A. Yes. Q. And you are aware, of course, that Nicole Brown Simpson had a bruise on her A. Yes. Q. That was a pretty good bruise, wasn't it? A. Well, it's a bruise in the skin. The scalp bruise is about the size of a Q. So she was certainly alive at the time that that bruise was inflicted, A. Well, this particular bruise, I agree with you, because there is an injury Q. And your view relative to that particular bruise is that it didn't cause her A. No. My opinion about that bruise is that it could have dazed her. I cannot Q. Okay. A. -- of how intense that bruise is. The bruise, in and of itself, is not of the kind that would necessarily cause I could not make a judgment on that. I would rather think that the bruise was not of such magnitude, but it could Q. Well, you testified when we took your deposition, that it may not have A. Yes. That's correct. Q. Now, this bruise was inflicted, in your opinion, before there was any wounds A. No; I don't know specifically when that bruise occurred. It just as well Q. Well, now, the slashing, as I understand it now, she had a couple of A. She had a couple of defensive wounds on her hand. Q. That didn't take, in your view, any time at all, correct? A. Well, nothing takes no time at all. Q. A second, two seconds? A. It takes very little time to inflict that, yes. Q. And your view, of course, Dr. Spitz, is that when those wounds to her hands A. To her hands? Q. Yeah. A. No. At one point, I said he was in front of her. Q. Oh, okay. So the assailant was in front of her at one time; and within 15 seconds, the A. No. No, not true. Q. Well, in your opinion, when the assailant or assailants are in front of Ms. A. You're asking me whether she already had that? Is that what you're asking Q. I'm asking you, sir: When the assailant or assailants were in front of Ms. A. I doubt that, although it's not impossible. I don't know when she sustained the bruise to the head. She could have -- Q. She couldn't have sustained the bruise to the head after the slash to the A. I doubt that she sustained the bruise to the neck after the slash of the Q. The bruise to the head after the slash to the neck. A. Yeah, I think the slash of the neck was the last event. Q. Because if, in fact, she had incurred the -- sustained a blow to her head A. Or less of a bruise, yes. Q. Now, we know that's a severe bruise because we know the brain is bruised. It A. I don't know what you mean. I don't know what you mean by "petechiae." Q. Okay. Let me get the autopsy report. I may be totally wrong. It wouldn't be the first Okay. It says there are focal areas of concentrated intercerebral petechiae A. Yes. I think I said yes. Q. Okay. And that indicated to you that there was bleeding in the brain tissue itself, A. No. What that means is that the bruise or the contusion in the brain The bruise, one, consists when there is a bruise in the brain, or what we call Q. It was a subdural hematoma; it was petechiae that had ruptured as a result A. No, no. The petechiae don't rupture. When there is a blow to the head from falling on the floor or hitting a wall, What is a black and blue mark in the brain? A black-and-blue mark in the brain is a little area -- or big area, for that Q. Okay. Now, that indicated to you in doing your reconstruction of the time frame A. Or some other firm thing. There's a bannister there. I don't know what she hit. She hit something as she Q. Now, you went out to the scene of the murders, did you not? A. Yes. Q. And you saw that in the area where her body was found, there was a concrete A. Yes. Q. And there was a wall on either side of that stairwell that was rock or A. Yes. Q. And she hit something and then went on the right side of her head, as you A. Yes, somewhere like I'm showing here. Q. Yeah. And that is not -- if you're going to fall to the right or to the A. No I'm not saying here. Q. No, I know; it's right here. A. It's here. Well, people fall -- Q. It's not on the side; it's closer to the top of the head? A. Well, here in this area. Q. Doctor, did you look at the pictures in the autopsy report as to where that A. I don't have it here. Q. You've got it. Let me -- THE COURT: Is that one of the photographs that was not received? MR. BAKER: No; it's a drawing in the autopsy report on a form, sir. It isn't -- (Indicating to reporter) MR. BAKER: Did you review -- this is -- I guess this is just a form 28. 28, THE WITNESS: May I request, could we use the photograph rather than the MR. PETROCELLI: We have a photo here, Your Honor. I believe it was on the MR. MEDVENE: It's 2016, I believe, Your Honor. MR. BAKER: Okay. (Counsel hands photo to witness.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Dr. Spitz, that's up by where Ms. Brown had her hair parted A. It is above the ear. You can see -- in the picture, you can see Ms. Q. Can you answer my question, sir? I said, it is up on the head, certainly above her ear, where she parts her A. No. Q. Towards the top? A. No; I disagree. Q. Then just answer the question. A. I know it's not where she parts her hair. Q. All you have to say is no. A. There is a parting, but the parting is artificial, because the parting is This is not where she normally keeps her parting. Q. You're sure of that? A. I'm sure of that. Q. Okay. A. Because the -- look at the parting. I cannot imagine that Ms. Simpson would Q. You can't? Okay. A. Besides, you see exactly where it is because you see the nose in the Q. Okay. Doctor, that indicates to you that she fell to the side? A. Yes. Q. And if she, in falling to the side, that type of blow, you would agree that A. I cannot tell you whether she definitely struck the stair or the floor or Q. But after she hit it, she went all the way down; in your opinion, more A. She could have. She didn't have to. Q. More likely than not, if in the struggle that caused this woman to hit her A. First of all, this is not a huge bruise. This -- she could have gone all the Q. Well, then, I got the impression, sir, from your testimony in the last few So, is that correct? You did a full reconstruction of how these murders took Yes? A. Yes. Q. Yes or no? A. Yes, I do -- Q. Thank you. A. -- However Q. Thank you. Now, let's go through it. After Nicole Brown Simpson is in front of the A. I don't know where. Her fingernail -- her hands were injured. Q. Is she standing on the stairs? A. I don't know where the hands were injured. Q. Was the assailant directly in front of her when the wounds were inflicted A. I don't know. He could have stood sideways. Q. Do you want to look at the autopsy report again and tell us whether or not A. Sideways, meaning -- you asked me whether he stood exactly in front of her. I don't know that. Maybe he -- there was somewhat of an angle. That's what I'm Q. Well, you can tell a little bit about how the assailant or assailants and A. I can say that the confrontation was from the front. Q. Face to face? A. Yes. But -- okay. Face to face, but not necessarily full face to face. Q. And then in your reconstruction scenario, Dr. Spitz, after she takes a A. Yes. Q. That's before she's taken any stab wounds to any other area than her hands, A. I believe that's a likely scenario. Q. And then, did you know if Nicole Brown Simpson was in good physical A. I'm sorry? Q. Did you know if she was in good shape and worked out and stayed relatively A. All I can -- I don't know if she worked out. I don't know. I don't think she Q. Do you know how easy it would be, for example, if she were standing in front A. How easy it would be? Q. Yeah. A. That depends on the relative size of the assailant and her. For some Q. And then your scenario is that after she's down, she gets back up, at least A. She does not necessarily get up. Q. I thought you said that she was not unconscious and that the blow to the A. That is a possibility. But once she is down, it is easy to grab her from behind and to pull her head Q. So your scenario is that after she hits the head, she is then down, and the A. I think she may have been dazed because of the injury at the sides of her Q. Okay. And you testified earlier today that the reason there were four wounds MR. MEDVENE: Objection. It's a speech and it misstates the evidence; assumes THE COURT: Overruled. Q. That's what you testified to -- MR. BAKER: Want to break? THE COURT: Let's take a ten-minute recess. Bring the jury back in ten minutes. (Recess.) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) CROSS EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) BY MR. BAKER: Q. Now, Dr. Spitz, as suggested, you've been to the crime scene? A. Have I been to the crime scene? Q. You have been there? A. Yes, I have. Q. You're aware that the area where Mr. Goldman's body was found, in that dirt A. Yes. Q. And the area where Ms. Nicole Brown Simpson's body was found would add A. Yes. Q. And so that is a very, very closed-in area; is it not? A. Yes, it is. Q. And during the -- we have on the -- on the monitor, sir, a diagram of that Now, at the time the killing of Ms. Simpson was taking place, and you say, with A. Of the neck. Q. Neck, pardon me. Preceding the fatal wound to the neck that, in your A. Yes. Q. Okay. And then, was it your opinion in your reconstruction that you had A. I think he probably was, but -- Q. Okay. A. I really don't know that he was, but I think he probably was; or was Well, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Q. You actually don't know 'cause you certainly weren't on the north side of A. Yes. My reconstruction is primarily based on wounds and not on the overall Q. Well, Dr. Spitz, I take it that before you come into court, you raise your A. No. My oath relates to my giving truthful testimony to the best of my Q. I take it, before you come in here and tell this jury that the whole A. Of course. MR. MEDVENE: Objection. It's been asked and answered. MR. BAKER: I agree. It's been asked. THE COURT: Well that's too productive. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, Dr. Spitz, in terms of the gate, that is the front gate, MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. It misstates his testimony. He didn't say MR. BAKER: He said he believed he was in the area. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you just tell us, sir, that your best opinion was that A. You're asking me whether I said that? Q. Yeah. Do you believe that Mr. Goldman was in that area when that altercation MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. THE WITNESS: I believe -- MR. MEDVENE: Excuse me. Objection calls for conclusion, lack of foundation. THE COURT: Overruled. The witness testified on direct examination as to certain Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Go ahead, sir. A. I personally believe that he may have been there, but I'm not basing that Q. All right. Now, but you've opined here not only about injuries. You opined A. No. No, all I did -- I testified to is appearance of injury, types of Every time you want to characterize my testimony, you'd have to submit that it Q. Now, sir, did -- the gate was locked and Ms. Nicole Brown Simpson had to MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. It assumes facts not in evidence. THE COURT: Sustained. I don't think this witness is competent to answer that. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Well, in terms of -- you've testified as to where you thought Those are all your opinions, correct? A. Yes. Q. And in your opinions, and you sure don't know whether Nicole Brown Simpson A. That's correct. Q. And you've testified that the assailant was in front and then around behind, A. Yes, I do know that he was in front of her when the hand wounds were Q. And you don't know that it took any 15 seconds from the first defensive A. No. Q. Okay. So you know that? A. I know -- that's not the best way to say it. I know that to sustain these Q. Okay. And that -- I mean you sat up here and you demonstrated umpf, umpf, MR. MEDVENE: Objection. THE COURT: It's argumentative. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You don't know, sir, how fast the wounds were inflicted, do Would you just answer my -- A. Yes, I do know. Q. Now, let's, in terms of your opinions relative to Mr. Goldman, as I A. Yes. Q. And that is the wounds that entered the left flank, and we'll put the Let's talk a little bit about the anatomy of a human being. In the anatomy of a A. The liver. Q. -- The liver is all -- And it's from about the diaphragm down in the A. Yes. Q. And that is encased in that thin cell, fine-like membrane called the A. Yes. Q. And the organs contained therein -- are called the -- or the area is called A. Yes. Q. In the area behind the peritoneum is called the retroperitoneal space, true? A. Yes. Q. Now, in the retroperitoneal space -- Phil, you want to put up that From the retroperitoneal space, we have -- that's a side-view and it shows -- A. This is the heart. Q. Well, but that's all in the thoracic cavity, right? A. Yes. Q. Okay. A. The lung has been taken out. Q. In the lower -- below that is the peritoneal cavity? A. You know, this is -- I have some difficulty with this picture because this Q. Well, that's about my level of education. A. Yeah, but not mine. Q. Okay. (Laughter.) I understand that. You have more degrees than a thermometer, right? (Laughter.) Now, in the -- in the retroperitoneal space, and that's the area that I'm A. The kidneys are retroperitoneal. Q. And that space, the retroperitoneal space is relatively dense. You would I mean it's filled with fat, muscle, kidneys, correct? There is no, like, cavity, there. It is all solid? A. Well, it's not -- It contains -- It contains, yes, fat; a little fat. I Q. All your back muscles are back there in the retroperitoneal. MR. MEDVENE: Excuse me, the witness was answering the question. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) I'm sorry. Go ahead. A. No, the back muscles that we know as back muscles, those strong muscles that Q. Let's use your diagram, then. I'll get it for you, sir. I've got this one. MR. MEDVENE: There's a front and a back, Bob. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Maybe you better get it. I can't find -- A. Should be this one. This is from the view. Q. Okay. All right. A. The other one is a view from the front. Q. Okay. Now, the density of the area, the retroperitoneal area is more dense, that is, (Indicating.) A. Could you -- excuse me, but could you say it again? Q. I'd be happy to. In terms of, let's just call it space, there is more area for blood to A. Yes. Q. Okay. And would you further agree, sir, that in terms of blood loss and A. Yes. Q. All right. Now, the thing that we know about the flank wounds to Mr. Goldman from the (Indicating to boards.) A. Yes. Q. As I understand it, you correct me if I'm in error, you did not view any A. Well, Yes, I did view evidence. I think the autopsy report is evidence. I Q. Okay. A. I think that it is evidence that, with everything else I reviewed to get it Q. When we took your deposition, you hadn't talked to Dr. Golden? A. No, I didn't. I talked to him afterwards. Q. I want to talk to you about -- a little bit about, you didn't review any A. No. I saw the piece of tissue on the picture and then I spoke to Golden Q. Okay. All right. Now, in terms of the drawing that is on the board, this exploded area is a A. Well, it's not -- it's inaccurate and not inaccurate. It's the peritoneal, Q. And -- A. Right here, there is a small space because I wanted to show how -- Q. Fine. Then all I'm trying to get you to agree with me, and I think you have, A. Yes, it does. Q. And rests upon it or one or the other? A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now. THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. Does this have a number? MR. MEDVENE: 2025. Q. In the autopsy property -- property of Mr. Goldman, in the photo that you A. That's correct. (Indicating to 2025.) Q. And the opening at the left flank of Mr. Goldman was how big, sir? A. You mean the wounds in the skin? Q. Yes, sir. A. I can't say that I recall. I can't say that I recall, but I'll look it up. Q. It's three-quarters of an inch, I believe. A. I think you may be right. Q. So -- and the wounds where it perforates the aorta, is five-and-a-half A. Yes. Q. So what we have is we have a knife that is at least five and a half inches A. No. Q. It had to be a half an inch wide going through the aorta, right? A. No. Q. When it went through the aorta, that blade had, of necessity, to go through A. You mean the tip of the blade had to go through the peritoneal; is that what Q. The blade entered and put a slice or a rent to use your medical terms, in A. Yes, it did and I testified to that. Q. Okay. A. I said that earlier. Q. Okay. Now, in terms, sir, of your construction of this being the first wounds, you MR. MEDVENE: Objection, Your Honor. Misstates the evidence. He didn't say it MR. BAKER: Well -- Q. (BY MR. BAKER) The sequence reading from your deposition page 24, line 22, A. That's correct. Q. Okay. Now, if that -- this -- if that was true, when you had the perforation of the (Mr. P. Baker complies.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) As I understand it, and I agree, you have more education than A. Yes, that's correct. Q. And the blood pressure in the aorta is at a minimum. The blood pressure that A. Yes. Q. And if, in fact, the knife went through the aorta, then went through the MR. MEDVENE: If the Court please, we object. The question's compound and it THE COURT: He's asking an anatomical question. If it's incorrect, the doctor MR. MEDVENE: All right, your Honor THE WITNESS: No, sir, I don't think I testified about density of tissues in the Q. (BY MR. BAKER) I see. A. I said that there is loose tissue in the retroperitoneum in the abdominal Q. Is the answer to my question simply no? MR. MEDVENE: Excuse me. The witness is in the middle. THE COURT: Finish your answer. THE WITNESS: In the abdominal cavity, there are all kinds of organs. I don't Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Just let me ask you to assume hypothetically, sir, You would agree, that if that is true, the blood would go into -- more blood A. No. I would definitely not agree to that. MR. MEDVENE: Objection. THE WITNESS: Let me just give you an example -- Q. (BY MR. BAKER) No you've answered the question. A. -- Why, I don't agree with you. Q. You answered the question. A. Okay. Q. If this were the first wound, Mr. Goldman would be incapacitated within a A. Probably. Q. Because what happens is, if this is the first wound, you have an enormous A. Well, he would lose consciousness very quickly because the brain would not Q. And, Doctor, you're certainly familiar with some people get what they call A. Yes. Q. And that's because they have not adequate oxygenated blood going to the A. Presumably. Q. Well, it's presumably true; isn't it? Okay. In other words, so Mr. Goldman, upon being inflicted with this right flank pain Left flank wound that goes through the aorta, is going to have an immediate A. No. Q. Well, let's go through, now, the wounds to the -- if the fatal wounds -- if A. Yes. Q. And the reason he would have an ability to fight for a period of time is A. Yes. Q. And, in fact, he could fight for ten or 15 minutes with the internal jugular A. I don't know if he could fight for ten or 15 minutes with the internal Q. Okay. I don't want to be -- to go as far as to say 15 minutes. Phil, put up the diagram, please, of the closed-in area at the Bundy crime (P. Baker complies, displays diagram.) Q. Have you seen the photos of the closed-in area, sir? A. Yes. Q. And have you seen the -- Thank you. MR. P. BAKER: That's exhibit 867 on the screen and exhibit 1342 on the board: Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now -- A. I'm sorry these pictures I have not seen before. Q. You've never seen these? A. No. (Indicating to 1342.) Q. Were you aware that there was blood smears on the whole of the gate right at A. Am I aware there are some blood splatters. All right. I'm not aware of large volumes Of blood. I'm aware of some blood splatters and Q. Well, so I'm to understand then, Dr. Spitz, that in arriving at your A. Yeah. My testimony is one minute or less. Q. Okay. Or less? A. Yes. And that is based on the wounds and not on the area where the body was Q. Okay. Now, would you be kind enough, sir, to go over and look at the top two For example, the top photograph on the right, if you see blood pooling the A. On the right? (Indicating to top right of exhibit 1342.) A. I don't see blood pooling. I see some blood here. Q. Well, right below your pen; is that blood pooling or is it not? A. This? Do you mean this? Q. That's what I mean. A. I don't know what that is. Q. Don't know what that is. Okay. A. I've never seven it before so I cannot tell you. Q. Do you see the boot that Mr. Goldman had in the lower right hand? A. Yes. Q. And you would agree, would you not, sir, that there is blood and dirt on A. Yes. Well, I don't know if it's blood. It looks like it could be blood. Q. And you don't have any -- well, strike that. Do you think that is indicative that there was a significant amount of blood A. You know, I cannot -- Q. Do you have an opinion at all? A. If this is blood, I don't know where this blood came from and if blood could (Indicating to photo of Ron Goldman's shoe.) Q. Really? I do know where the area of where Nicole Brown's. One was an area of A. There was tile with a lot of blood on it. Q. There was blood up into the crevice in those boots, is there not, assuming A. There is blood on the photo of this shoe. That's what -- I don't know that Q. Well, it -- THE COURT: Have you -- you have an estimate as to how long you're going to be? MR. BAKER: Going to be a while. I'm going to be a while on Tuesday, I assume. THE COURT: Okay. Give me an idea. MR. BAKER: About two hours. THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we'll adjourn until Tuesday at 8:30. Let me remind you not to talk about this case among yourselves. THE BAILIFF: We are still on the record. The judge is still on the bench. (Pause in the proceedings.) THE COURT: You know, if you can't maintain yourself in the audience, you are (Indicating to audience.) THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, you're not to talk about this case among Jay Leno has a skit. Don't watch it. Okay? Everybody understand that. JURORS: Yes. THE COURT: It's very important that you comply with it. And if anybody Okay. Have a nice weekend. We will see you Tuesday morning at 8:30. JURORS: Thank you. (At 4:31 P.M. a recess was taken Until Tuesday, October 12, 1996 at 8:30 A.M.) |