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REPORTER'S DAILY TRANSCRIPT SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA SHARON RUFO, ET AL., N/A, PLAINTIFFS, VS. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, ET AL., DEFENDANTS.
SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the THE COURT: Morning, ladies and gentlemen. JURORS: Morning, Your Honor. THE COURT: You may proceed. MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, we call as our next witness, Michael Romano. THE COURT: Mike Romano or Romero? MR. GELBLUM: Romano, R-O-M-A-N-O. MICHAEL ROMANO, called as a witness on behalf of Plaintiffs, was duly sworn and THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause THE WITNESS: I do. THE CLERK: Please be seated. THE COURT: Out of curiosity, how come this name isn't on the list you gave me? MR. PETROCELLI: Should have been. THE COURT: I've been provided. MR. GELBLUM: It might be lower down on the list other than first of these of THE COURT: I'd appreciate it if you'd give me an updated list that is accurate. THE CLERK: Sir, if you would, please state and spell your name for the record. THE WITNESS: Mike Romano, M-I-K-E, R-O-M-A-N-O. THE CLERK: Thank you. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GELBLUM: Q. Morning, Mr. Romano. A. Morning. Q. How are you? A. Fine. Q. You here under subpoena? A. Yes. Q. Did you ask to come here today? A. No, sir. Q. Are you a freelance photographer, sir? A. Yes, I am. Q. When you take pictures as a freelance photographer, you try to sell them? A. Yes, I do. Q. And did you do that same -- were you also a freelance photographer in A. Yes, sir, I was. Q. Do you recall where you were on January 15 1994? A. I was in Buffalo, New York. Q. And what were you doing there? A. Covering a football game. Q. Who was playing? A. Los Angeles Raiders and the Buffalo Bills. Q. While you were there, did you take any photographs of Mr. Simpson, the A. Yes, I did. Q. Was that -- at what point in the game was that? A. That was after the game, in the press room. Q. Press room? A. Yes, sir. Q. About what time was that? A. After the game, was possibly about 4:00, 4:15. Q. I'd like to show you Exhibit 660. MR. GELBLUM: Put it on the Elmo, please. (Mr. Foster complies.) MR. GELBLUM: Would you turn and look at the screen, sir. Would you dim the lights, please. Back it up a little bit, Steve. (Mr. Foster adjusts Elmo.) (The instrument herein referred to as a Photograph of Mr. Simpson with left Q. (BY MR. GELBLUM) Do you recognize that Exhibit 660 that's on the screen, A. Yes, sir. Q. What is that? A. That is one of the photographs I shot that day. Q. Okay. How far away were you from Mr. Simpson when you took that picture? A. Three, four feet. Q. Three to four feet? A. Three to four feet. Q. Do you recall what kind of lens was on your camera? A. Just a standard 15 millimeter. Q. Did you use a flash? A. Yes, I did. Q. You can see the reflection of the flash in the photo? A. Yes, I do. Q. How did you have that picture developed? A. Just through my normal photo lab. Q. Did you have any special processing? A. No, sir. Q. And did you subsequently sell that picture -- A. Yes, I did. Q. -- as part of your work as a freelance photographer? A. Yes, sir. Q. To whom did you sell it? A. I sold it to the National Enquirer. MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, I would move into evidence, Exhibit 660. THE COURT: Received. (The instrument herein referred to as a Photograph of Mr. Simpson with left MR. GELBLUM: Nothing further. THE COURT: Cross? MR. BLASIER: Mr. Romano -- Leave it on, please. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER: Q. Mr. Romano, this was January 15, 1994? A. Yes, sir. Q. It was how cold that day in Buffalo, New York? A. It was thirty-plus below zero. Q. And did you know if Mr. Simpson had any hand warmers in the glove? A. No, sir, I didn't. Q. How much did you sell the photo for? MR. GELBLUM: Objection. Relevance. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Do you normally sell photos of Mr. Simpson to the National A. No, I don't. Q. This was a one-time shot because it was Mr. Simpson and it was after he was MR. GELBLUM: Objection. Argumentative. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Repeat the question, please. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) It was a one-time shot after Mr. Simpson was charged with A. Yes, sir. Q. And how much did you get for the photo? MR. GELBLUM: Objection. Relevance. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) How much do you usually get for a photo, Mr. Romano? A. It depends on the photo. Q. Did you get more for this photo than any other photo of Mr. Simpson? MR. GELBLUM: Objection. Relevance. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: On what basis? THE COURT: It's not relevant. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, did you try to market that photo before you sold it? A. No, sir. Q. Did you analyze this photo before you sold it? I mean, did you take a good look at it, Mr. Romano? A. What do you mean by, did I take a good look? Q. Did you -- for example, did Mr. Simpson's fingers go to the end of the MR. GELBLUM: Objection. Calls for conclusion. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you make a determination as to whether or not that glove MR. GELBLUM: Objection. Calls for conclusion. The photo speaks for itself. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You made no -- well, did you ever even look at the picture A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. And when did you sell it? A. I think it was July or August of '95, not positive. Q. After the criminal trial was ongoing, sir? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. MR. BAKER: Thanks. I don't have anything further. MR. GELBLUM: Nothing, Your Honor. THE COURT: You may step down. MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, next we have a series of four people, also who are MR. BAKER: I'd object to the reading of -- there's been no showing of MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, he lives in the Oakland area. And 20 -- 2025, we can MR. BAKER: Your Honor, they subpoenaed him and they have served him, and he I think that the subpoena power is in effect throughout the state. THE COURT: What is the code section we referred to earlier with regards to MR. GELBLUM: I'm sorry, Your Honor; I referred to 2025, which is for THE COURT: Not if this witness has been subpoenaed. MR. GELBLUM: We did send him a subpoena. THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. GELBLUM: We did send him a subpoena. THE COURT: Did you send him or serve him? MR. GELBLUM: We sent him a subpoena. We contacted him by phone. He agreed to THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. GELBLUM: We sent him -- we mailed him, after he agreed to accept the MR. BAKER: There's a proof of service, Your Honor? That doesn't look like a THE COURT: All right. With regards to all of the other named persons in the You may offer me some points and authorities as to whether or not this witness MR. GELBLUM: Very good. Thank you, Your Honor. We'd like to do it similarly as we did before, with reading of the testimony. I'd like to have my colleague, Yvette Molinaro, take the stand. THE COURT: You may. (Ms. Molinaro assumed the witness stand and reads the answers from the (Mr. Gelblum reads the questions and narrative portions of the deposition of (Criminal exhibit numbers have been replaced with the corresponding civil case MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, we would like to start with the witness Mark Krueger. "Q. Can you state and spell your name. "A. Mark Krueger, M-A-R-K, K-R-U-E-G-E-R. "Q. Mr. Krueger, can you tell us, are you a professional photographer? "A. No. "Q. Directing your attention to the date of December 29, 1990, on that date, "A. Soldier Field in Chicago, Illinois. "Q. And why were you in Soldier Field in Chicago? "A. I was shooting photos for my stepfather's newspaper he's the editor of the "Q. And what kind of shots were you taking? What were you there for? "A. Chicago Bears shots, just anything I could get that's interesting. "Q. Was that -- that was a football game? "A. Yes. "Q. The Bears versus who? "A. Kansas City Chiefs. "Q. Where exactly were you? "A. All over. "Q. Where on the field? "A. I was on the sidelines, in the end zone, probably every spot on the field." MR. GELBLUM: Put up 642, please. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of O.J. Simpson with right MR. GELBLUM: (Reading.) "Q. Showing you People's 642 -- MR. GELBLUM: Could we have the back lights. (Bailiff complies.) MR. GELBLUM: Thank you very much. That's much better. MR. GELBLUM: (Reading.) "Q. Showing you" -- MR. GELBLUM: I'm sorry. (Reading.) "Q Showing you 642-A, could you please tell me if you recognize the photograph? "A. Yes, I do. "Q. What is that? "A. A picture of O.J. Simpson at a football game, at the game I was at. "Q. Was that the photograph that you took? "A. Yes, it is. "Q. Now, does the photograph show him wearing any gloves? "A. Yes." (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Showing you 643, can you tell us if this is an accurate enlargement of the (The instrument herein referred to as Enlargement of Exhibit 642 taken by Mr. MR. GELBLUM: (Reading.) "A. Yes, they look like the same ones to me." (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Now, what color are these gloves? "A. They appear to be black to me. "Q. Do you recall what time it was that you took this photograph? "A. Not exactly. I knew it was at the end of the Bears' game. I would assume it "Q. Do you recall where you were, how far away from him you were when you took "A. Probably ten to fifteen feet. "Q. Can you describe the weather for us? "A. It was rainy, just a dark, cloudy day. It wasn't like pouring rain; it was (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Now, when you had these developed, did you develop them yourself, or send "A. I sent them to a photo shop, one-hour photo shop. "Q. Any special processing? "A. No." MR. GELBLUM: Nothing further, Your Honor. THE COURT: Cross? MR. BAKER: Nothing. THE COURT: Okay. MR. GELBLUM: I'd like to move in Exhibits 642 and 643, Your Honor. THE COURT: Received. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of O.J. Simpson with right (The instrument herein referred to as Enlargement of Exhibit 642, taken by Mr. MR. GELBLUM: Next witness is a gentleman by the name of Bill Renken. Would you spell your name, please. (Continued reading as follows:) "A. Bill Renken, B-I-L-L R-E-N-K-E-N. "Q. Are you a professional photographer? "A. Yes, I am. "Q. And do you have a photo lab of your own? "A. I work with a custom photo lab, Western Hills Photo, in Cincinnati. "Q. Now, directing your attention to the date of January 6, 1991, can you tell "A. I was at Riverfront Stadium, covering a playoff game between the Cincinnati "Q. When you say you were covering the game, where was that? "A. It was at Riverfront Stadium. "Q. In Cincinnati? "A. Cincinnati, yes. "Q. Were you covering it for the purpose of taking photographs in your "A. That's correct. "Q. Can you tell us where you were when you took those photographs? "A. I was on the sidelines. "Q. What sidelines were you on? "A. I was on the Bengals' side. "Q. Did you take photographs of Mr. Simpson during that game? "A. Yes, I did." MR. BAKER: Would you read it correctly, please. MR. GELBLUM: It says "of the defendant." (Reading.) "Q. Did you take photographs of the defendant during that game? "A. Yes, I did. "Q. How far away were you from him when you took those photographs? "A. I'd say approximately, roughly, ten to maybe fifteen feet away. "Q. And did you cause one of those photographs to be enlarged? "A. Yes. MR. GELBLUM: Put 641 up, please. "Q. I show you Exhibit 641, which -- THE REPORTER: What is the exhibit number, please? MR. GELBLUM: I will, in one minute, (Continued reading as follows:) "Ask you to tell us if this is the photograph you took on January 6, 1991, in "A. Yes, it does. (The instrument herein referred to as a small vertical photograph of O.J. MR. GELBLUM: Do you have this on you? Can you put this on the Elmo. (Reading:) "Q. Does this photograph accurately depict the shot that you took? "A. Yes, it does. "Q. With respect to that particular -- did you take photographs throughout the "A. Yes, I did. "Q. And did you take some at halftime? "A. Yes, I did. "Q. Did you also take some at the end of the game? "A. Yes, I did. "Q. Can you tell us what time this one was taken? "A. I'd say it was -- obviously, that one is a post-game interview. It could be "Q. Can you tell us whether there was any artificial lighting when you took "A. No, there wasn't. "Q. Did you use a flash? "A. Not on this picture." MR. GELBLUM: You can put that down. (Reading:) "Q. 644 is an 8 by 11 showing the defendant holding a microphone, turned toward Showing you this photograph, can you tell us if there was another photograph "A. Yes, it is. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Now, you say you took a photograph of the defendant during halftime, as "A. Yes, I did. "Q. I'm going to show you a photograph that's approximately eight and a half by (The instrument herein referred to as photograph of O.J. Simpson holding a (The instrument herein referred to as Vertical photograph of O.J. Simpson "MR. GELBLUM: That's 645, Your Honor. And a horizontal photograph of the defendant holding an umbrella, which is 646. (The instrument herein referred to as Horizontal photograph of O.J. Simpson "Q. Are 645 and 646 photographs that you took? "A. Yes, they are. "Q. And are those accurate depictions of the photographs that you took on that "A. Yes they are. "Q. What color are the gloves? "A. These have a -- Brown. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Can you tell us first of all, with respect to this photograph 646, when was "A. This was taken at halftime. "Q. How far away from him were you when you took this photograph? "A. Roughly ten to fifteen feet. "Q. Can you describe the weather? "A. Very -- rain, kind of rainy, obviously damp. "Q. Throughout the game? "A. Yes. "Q. For this photograph did you use a flash? "A. Yes, I did. "Q. Was there any artificial lighting? "A. The artificial lighting was from the TV cameras -- I mean the TV lights. "Q. You mean the lights that are on the video cameras? "A. On the video cameras. Or I'm pretty sure -- they might have had some lights "Q. Can you tell us what kind of camera you used? "A. I used a Nikon -- I have two Nikons, an 8000A and FA. "Q. Was there any special processing you gave to this photograph? "A. Nope. "Q. Or any of those photographs? "A. Nope. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Do you see what appear to be rain drops or any moisture on those gloves on MR. GELBLUM: Could you zoom in on the gloves. (Mr. Foster complies.) (Reading:) "A. Yes. "Q. I'm going to show you 647." (The instrument herein referred to as photograph of O.J. Simpson wearing "Q. Can you identify this photograph? "A. Yes. It was a picture also taken after the game that was used without a, "Q. And this is another photograph of the defendant wearing those gloves at "A. Yes. "Q. Was this a post-game or halftime photograph? "A. A post-game. "Q. There was no artificial lighting in this photograph? "A. Right." MR. GELBLUM: And this is how it reads in the transcript, Your Honor: (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. I have here photographs 648 through 653. These are obviously -- I'm MR. GELBLUM: Steve, could you put up one after the other, 648 through 653. MR. BAKER: Where are you reading? MR. GELBLUM: Page 45004, middle of the page. MR. GELBLUM: Is this the second one? MR. FOSTER: This is 649. MR. GELBLUM: This is 649. The last one was 648. (The instruments herein referred to as Series of photographs taken of O.J. (The instruments herein referred to as Series of photographs taken of O.J. "Q. Can you tell us whether you recognize those photographs we've just marked "A. Yes. "Q. What are those photographs of? "A. Pictures of the defendant. "Q. And -- "A. During an interview, a post-game interview. "Q. Can you tell us as you review them, if these are all post-game interview "A. Yes. "Q. Of the same game on January 6, 1991? "A. Yes, they are. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Now, are all these true and accurate prints of the photographs that you "A. Yes, they are." MR. GELBLUM: I'd like to move into evidence, Your Honor, 641, and then 644 THE COURT: Received. (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 641 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 644 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 645 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 646 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 647 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 648 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 649 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 650 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 651 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 652 was received in (The instrument previously marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 653 was received in MR. GELBLUM: Nothing further. MR. P. BAKER: Page 45024, (Reading:) "Q. Mr. Renken, good afternoon. "A. Good afternoon, sir. "Q. January '91 in Cincinnati, that's pretty -- January 1991 in Cincinnati, "A. Yes, it is. "Q. And at this game, was it very cold? "A. It was cold, rainy, moist. "Q. It's not unusual -- I take it, there are a lot of other people in the "A. I imagine. "Q. Brown gloves? "A. All different kinds of gloves. "Q. It's not particularly unusual to have brown gloves in the cold in the "A. I assume. "Q. In fact, did you notice in the video --" MR. GELBLUM: Your Honor, I apologize. There's a gap in the transcript. I MR. P. BAKER: Okay. MR. GELBLUM: I'm sorry. MR. BAKER: We can do it after we finish. MR. GELBLUM: He asked questions about it. That's fine if you want. MR. GELBLUM: Sorry. We're now on page 45020. (Reading:) "First of all, Mr. Renken, I'm going to ask you to look at this video and tell MR. GELBLUM: Would you play the video? This is Exhibit 654. (The instrument herein referred to as a video of O.J. Simpson giving commentary MR. GELBLUM: I think this is during the video. (Reading:) "A. It's the defendant doing a commentary about I imagine, probably the first "Q. When you say "the game," ... (sic) what game are you referring to? "A. That was the play-off game with the Bengals versus the Oilers." MR. GELBLUM: One second, please. Stop it there. (Reading:) "Q. And where was that? "A. At River Front Stadium, Cincinnati. "Q. And is this the same game from which he took -- you previously identified "A. Yes, they are. "Q. Okay. So this is the videotape of the game that we have still photographs "A. Correct. "Q. Can you tell us, noting the umbrella in the defendant's hand in this frame (Video is rewound.) " ... In this frame, ... (sic) at what point in the game this video's shot? "A. Again, it's at half time and could be 2:45, around that area, 3 o'clock." MR. GELBLUM: Okay. Can you get to the frame where it stopped at the criminal (Video tape continues playing.) MR. GELBLUM: Okay. (Reading:) "... Can -- directing your attention to the defendant's left hand holding the "A. Yes. "Q. Thank you." MR. GELBLUM: Continue playing. (Videotape resumes playing.) MR. GELBLUM: (Reading:) "Q. Do you see rain or what might be rain or some kind of mild snow on the hat MR. GELBLUM: And the Court says (reading): "THE COURT: Esiason" MR. GELBLUM: E-S-I-A-S-O-N. This is at frame 5439. We'll get to that frame. Q. Do you see rain or what may be rain or some kind of mild snow on Esiason's "A. Yes ... Yes, I do. "Q. Thank you." (Tape resumes playing.) "Q. ... (sic) Do you recognize that video clip ... (sic)? "A. Yes, I do. "Q. And that's a clip of? "A. Bengals, Oilers play-off game, January 6, 1991 at River Front Stadium in MR. GELBLUM: Thank you. I apologize. MR. P. BAKER: No problem. Do you want me to start over, Ms. Malinaro. MR. GELBLUM: I would move into evidence, 654, the video. THE COURT: Received. (The instrument herein referred to as a video of O.J. Simpson giving commentary MR. P. BAKER: (Reading:) "Q. Mr. Renken, good afternoon. "A. Good afternoon, sir. "Q. January '91 in Cincinnati, that's a pretty cold time of year there, isn't "A. Yes, it is. "Q. And at this game, was it very cold? "A. It was cold, rainy, moist. "Q. It's not unusual -- I take it there are a lot of other people in the "A. I imagine. "Q. Brown gloves? "A. All different kinds of gloves. "Q. It's not particularly unusual to have brown gloves in the cold in winter? "A. I assume. "Q. In fact, did you notice in the video that everybody that was walking around "A. I didn't really pay that much attention, but I assume in that climate of "Q. Now, just how cold was it that particular day? "A. It could have been in the 20's, early 30's. "Q. Did you at any time, get close enough to Mr. Simpson to determine whether "A. No, I couldn't tell. "Q. You know what I mean by heat pack? "A. Yes. I'm familiar. "Q. Have you seen those used at football games to keep your hands warm? "A. Sort of. "Q. Now, you said you notified the prosecution that you had pictures, when, for "MR. GELBLUM: Objection. Irrelevant. "THE COURT: Overruled. "THE WITNESS: Do I need to answer that? "Q. Yeah. "A. It was June, around 26th. "Q. June 26? "A. June around the 26th." MR. GELBLUM: Line 24, I think. (Ms. Molinaro continues reading:) "A. Around June 26th, Jack Webster, former employee of Euro photo, sent out a "Q. ... (sic) I think you indicated that some of those pictures are at the ""A. Half time and at the end of the game, right. "Q. Do you have any from the beginning? "A. No, I don't. "Q. All right. Now, the ones up here, which one is from half time and which one "A. The ones from half time, sir, are the horizontal, him holding the blue "Q. All right. The first one of your pictures on the left? "A. Yes." "Q. And the one from after the game is the one on the right? "A. Yes." (Photos are displayed.) "Q. ... (sic) was it raining during this whole game? "A. Pretty much. "Q. Did Mr. Simpson have an umbrella most of the time when he wasn't on camera? "A. There were times I remember seeing him out without it in the runway area, "Q. Okay. Now, you notice in the picture that you indicated is from the half MR. GELBLUM: Objection." MR. GALBLUM: Calls for conclusion. MR. BAKER: Is that objection in the transcript? MR. GELBLUM: No. MR. BAKER: Then I object to his objection. MR. GELBLUM: You can make new objections. MR. BAKER: I don't think so. Not when they offer the deposition or the prior -- MR. GELBLUM: I didn't offer this portion, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, may I be heard on that? THE COURT: You may. MR. BAKER: Thank you. (The following proceedings were held at the bench:) MR. BAKER: Objection was first of all overruled in the criminal court. Second And hence, there's no basis that this witness doesn't have any foundation for MR. GELBLUM: We can offer new objections. from anything. I don't know of Secondly, we did not ask for this kind of conclusion about "the glove was Thirdly, they could have objected. Just because they didn't object, doesn't THE COURT: Well, you cite me the code section. MR. GELBLUM: Which code section? THE COURT: Cite me a code section. MR. GELBLUM: I'm not aware of a code section. I'm not aware of code section. THE COURT: You're not aware of a code section dealing with the use of MR. GELBLUM: This is not deposition. This is prior testimony from the criminal THE COURT: Why are you calling it a deposition? MR. GELBLUM: I wasn't, Your Honor. This is prior -- I thought I made it clear. MR. PETROCELLI: 1291 of the evidence code. MR. GELBLUM: That's prior testimony. I apologize if I said something to mislead THE COURT: I think this testimony is being offered under 1291 of the evidence MR. GELBLUM: Yes, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. And 1291 says, subdivision B says the admissibility of former testimony under MR. GELBLUM: This objection was made. MR. BAKER: It was not. The objection was made, I think, from -- you want to MR. GELBLUM: It wasn't the form. It was relevance. MR. BAKER: "Photograph speaks for itself," and I think under the -- this is not MR. PETROCELLI: The objection was as to form. THE COURT: Wait a minute. Let me read it. I can't chew gum and walk at the same (There was a pause in the proceedings to allow the Court to read the MR. GELBLUM: I think -- THE COURT: Will you stop it. Let me read. (Pause in the proceedings.) THE COURT: After looking at the rest of the testimony, what you're arguing I'm going to overrule. There's nothing of consequence that follows. Overruled. MR. GELBLUM: I have an extra set of the testimony. Would you like -- THE COURT: Not really. Okay. MR. P. BAKER: I'm going to read the question back. (Reading:) Now, you notice in the picture that you've indicated is from the half time -- THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me can you tell me what number that is, the board, (Mr. P. Baker displays Exhibit No. 646.) MR. P. BAKER: (Reading:) "Q. Did you notice that? "A. Sure. "Q. And that's consistent with what you saw that day? "A. Well, I wasn't looking at his gloves. I wasn't looking at how they were "Q. Now, take a look at the one from the post game. Do you see that it's MR. P. BAKER: 606 is displayed. 606 -- 641. 641 is actually displayed. (Exhibit 641 is displayed.) MR. P. BAKER: (Reading:) "Q. Would you take a look at after the game? "A. Uh-huh." (Continues reading on page 45028, line 18:) "Q. Now, would you like to look at your other pictures and tell me if they "A. Yes, they are, sir. "Q. Okay. And those are all consistent with what you've told us about? "A. Yes. "Q. Now, I think you indicated that the video was -- the first part of the "A. Yes. "Q. About 2:45 I think you said? "A. About that time." MR. P. BAKER: Okay. Could we put the video up at frame 544? (Video at frame 544 displayed.) MR. P. BAKER: (Reading:) "Q. See the time on that tape Mr. Renken? "A. Yes, sir. "Q. That's not half time, is it? "A. That's not half time? "Q. That's the beginning of the game, isn't it, before the game? "A. ... (sic) Could be. It's -- Uh, oh, I see. Okay. The five -- I'm sorry. I "Q. You're the one that identified the videotape. You tell me. "A. That's correct. "Q. What? "A. ... (sic) That was -- that was quite awhile. "Q. The video indicates it was 12:03, doesn't it? "A. Excuse me? "Q. The video indicates 12:03, doesn't it? "A. Yes. "Q. And that's the pre-game, isn't it? "A. Oh, okay? Excuse me. That was the pre-game interview." (Continues reading as follows:) "Q. Does the video here, the right hand area, the wrist, look the same as your "A. Yes, they do. MR. P. BAKER: "That's all I have." MR. GELBLUM: Nothing further. The next witness, Your Honor, is Kevin Schott, S-C-H-O-T-T. (Ms. Molinaro assumed the witness stand and reads the answers from the (Mr. Gelblum reads the questions and narrative portions of the deposition of "THE CLERK: State and spell your first and last names for the record. "THE WITNESS: Kevin J. Schott, K-E-V-I-N, middle initial J., Schott, "Q. Mr. Schott, can you tell us what you do for a living? "A. I'm a teacher. "Q. And what do you teach? "A. I teach photography. "Q. And where is this that you teach photography? "A. Orchard Park High School. "Q. Where is that? "A. In Orchard Park, New York. "Q. New York? "A. Correct." "Q. All right. Now, directing your attention to the date of November 21, 1993, "A. I was at Rich Stadium in Orchard Park, New York. "Q. And for what purpose were you at that stadium? "A. To take photographs for my students. "Q. Was there a game going on at that time? "A. Correct. "Q. What game was that? "A. Buffalo Bills against the Indianapolis Colts. "Q. Where did that take place? "A. At Rich Stadium. "Q. In which state? "A. New York. "Q. Is that up state New York? "A. Western New York. "Q. Now, while you were there, did you take photographs? "A. Yes, I did. "Q. I show you Exhibit 655, and ask you if this is the photograph that you sent (Exhibit 655 is displayed on Screen.) "A. It is a photo that I sent to my lawyer. "Q. Okay. Is that the photograph that you took at the game on November 21, 1993 "A. Yes, it is." (Reading continued as follows:) "Q. Showing you these photographs" -- and that's 655 which we have on the "A. Yes, I do. "Q. How do you recognize them? "A. They're photographs that I took at the game. "Q. Can you tell us, where you were when you took these photographs? "A. I was on the sideline of the Buffalo Bills. I was on the Bill's side. "Q. So you were actually on the field? "A. Correct. "Q. Can you tell us how far away you were from the defendant when you took "A. I would say approximately 10 to 14 feet. "Q. Do you recall what kind of camera you used? "A. A Canon EO630. "Q. Did you use a flash? "A. No, I did not. "Q. Can you tell us what time of day it was when you took these photographs? "A. Approximately 11:30. "Q. And what were the lighting conditions? What was the weather like? "A. Relatively sunny. I believe it was a little cool towards the morning." (Continues reading as follows:) "Q. Did you send these photographs out for development at a lab? "A. The film to be developed. "Q. I'm sorry. Yes. "A. Yes. I sent the film out to be developed. "Q. All right. Was there any special processing that you requested on this "A. No." MR. GELBLUM: Okay. Your Honor, I'd move into evidence exhibits 655, 656, and THE COURT: Received. (The instrument herein referred to as front view photo of O.J. Simpson with (The instrument herein referred to as close-up photo of O.J. Simpsons' gloved (The instrument herein referred to as enlarged, side-view photo of O.J. Simpson MR. GELBLUM: Nothing further. MR. P. BAKER: 45044. (Reading:) "Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Schott? "A. Good afternoon. "Q. How are you doing? "A. Fine, thank you. "Q. November of '93 is when these pictures were taken, correct? "A. Correct. "Q. In Buffalo? "A. In Buffalo. "Q. Do you live in Buffalo? "A. I live in Orchard Park. "Q. Is that near Buffalo? "A. It's near Buffalo. "Q. November in the Buffalo area generally isn't cool. It's generally very, "A. I'm not a weatherman, but in Buffalo in November, we could have some days "Q. Okay. But November -- I mean, we're just in early September? "A. Correct. But in November, you could have some nice days where it's cool in "Q. Okay. How many people were in the stadium roughly, if you know? Was it sold "A. My best guess is yes, it was but I don't know that for a fact. "Q. A lot of people wearing gloves? "A. I don't believe so. I wasn't looking for that. "Q. Okay. So you don't know? "A. I really don't know. "Q. Is there anything particularly unusual about wearing gloves on that day? "A. No. "Q. Do you have men's gloves? "A. Yes, I do. "Q. Now are these the only pictures that you took? "A. No, they're not. "Q. All right. And where are the other pictures? ... (sic) I meant that "A. Of Mr. Simpson? "Q. Yes. "A. I believe the District Attorney has what I printed up." MR. P. BAKER: And where are the other pictures? (Reading:) "Q. Those are the ones you've identified here in court today and it's actually "A. Correct. "Q. Now, I think you indicated you had a lawyer? "A. Yes, I do. "Q. Dealing with these pictures? "A. Yes, I do. "Q. When did you send the pictures that you took of Mr. Simpson to the MR. GELBLUM: Objection. Irrelevant. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. P. BAKER: Down at the bottom of the page (reading): "A. I talked to my friend, who happens to be my lawyer, and I believe it was "Q. Of this year? "A. Of this year, 1995. "Q. Did you try to sell them to Inside_Edition before you sent them to the "A. I did not try to sell them to Inside_Edition. "Q. Did your attorney, on your behalf, try to sell them? "A. I don't believe he did either. I'm not sure. "Q. Was contact made with Inside_ Edition to try and negotiate the sale of "A. It may have been. I don't know. "Q. Did you authorize him to do that? "A. No, I did not. "Q. Do you have any knowledge of your attorney trying to sell these pictures on THE COURT: I'll sustain my own objection to that. It's getting irrelevant. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. Page 45048, down in the middle of the page, "who is your MR. GELBLUM: Objection. Irrelevant. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. P. BAKER: That's all I have. MR. GELBLUM: Nothing further. And that's it. That's it for these witnesses, THE COURT: I'm ready to rule on West. MR. GELBLUM: Okay. THE COURT: Okay. Objection sustained. Witness served within the jurisdiction. MR. GELBLUM: We'll try to bring him in, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. MR. KELLY: Next witness, Judge, or do you want to break. THE COURT: Take ten minute recess. Ladies and gentlemen, don't talk about the (Recess.) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the MR. KELLY: Your Honor, we'd like to call our next witness, Richard Rubin. Judge, well, he's on his way. Could we approach? THE COURT: Okay. MR. KELLY: Judge, this witness, Richard Rubin, was a former employee, the We're putting him on the stand to discuss the characteristics of this And I don't want to be put in the position where I -- where on cross, Mr. Baker And I just don't want that put to the jury without any notice, because once We certainly do not intend to approach that on our direct case, Your Honor. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, they have listed this guy as an expert. And I don't Whatever the number is, you can't play hide the ball with experts. I get to And he was called back in the criminal trial for the express purpose, after the MR. KELLY: Judge, first of all, that's only one man's opinion of whether they But secondly, that was from the criminal trial, Mr. Simpson -- THE COURT: If you're offering this man as an expert, certainly that's within MR. KELLY: I'm not questioning the bounds of the cross-examination; it's the First of all, Your Honor, there was -- at the criminal case, he was not subject THE COURT: If you're going to ask about fit -- MR. PETROCELLI: We're not. MR. KELLY: We're not. THE COURT: What are you going to ask him? MR. KELLY: He's going to be identifying the photographs of Mr. Simpson, THE COURT: With the idea of what? MR. KELLY: Hooking them up to the receipts, Your Honor, that we put into THE COURT: With the idea of what? MR. KELLY: To suggest that he owned these gloves. THE COURT: Well, but "doesn't fit" have something to do with it? MR. PETROCELLI: He can't -- MR. KELLY: He can't -- go ahead. MR. PETROCELLI: You can't -- THE COURT: If you open it up, he's going to cross-examine. MR. PETROCELLI: That's what we're here to find out. He cannot put on in this case a videotape that's not in the official record. A This expert's not relying on that. He can -- he can ask -- THE COURT: He's not -- I'm sure he's not relying on it. Mr. Baker wants to MR. PETROCELLI: He can cross-examine this expert about his observations in the And I think under 352, as well as the hearsay rule, it's not proper. Your Honor, there was a lot of controversy surrounding how he put the gloves MR. BAKER: But -- MR. PETROCELLI: You can cross-examine him fully. You can't bring in TV MR. BAKER: Yes, I can. MR. PETROCELLI: No, you can't, any more than I can bring in TV coverage of In the criminal trial, Mr. Simpson was not subject to cross-examination. THE COURT: There is no cross-examination; it's a visual depiction of him trying MR. PETROCELLI: He can testify as to what he saw. But, Your Honor, I think it's THE COURT: You showed pictures of him at football games with gloves on. MR. PETROCELLI: Those are authenticated by independent witnesses. THE COURT: I don't have any problem with authenticating those glove pictures. MR. PETROCELLI: We think it's highly prejudicial and hearsay to put this guy up THE COURT: You put him on -- MR. PETROCELLI: We're -- THE COURT: -- I'm going to allow him to -- MR. PETROCELLI: You're not going to -- THE COURT: -- to be cross-examined. MR. PETROCELLI: We're going to ask him -- to ask him to identify in the photos. THE COURT: No; you want to connect the gloves up with the defendant. MR. PETROCELLI: Absolutely. THE COURT: Fine. I think fit is part of it. MR. PETROCELLI: We have no -- THE COURT: Yes -- MR. PETROCELLI: Why should he show a video of what happened in that court case THE COURT: What happened? MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor, he even -- he had latex gloves underneath. That THE COURT: That's something you can establish on your examination, on your MR. PETROCELLI: We vigorously object to this, Your Honor. THE COURT: Well, your objection is noted. MR. PETROCELLI: I think it's highly improper to poison this jury when what THE COURT: It's appropriate cross-examination. You're putting on an expert for MR. PETROCELLI: He can cross him on that, but why play the video? THE COURT: So we can see it. What's better than seeing it? MR. PETROCELLI: Because we had nothing to do with how those gloves were put on, THE COURT: I don't think that's relevant. MR. PETROCELLI: Oh, Your Honor, I disagree with that. Very respectfully, I think this is highly prejudicial to our case. THE COURT: That's part of your case? MR. PETROCELLI: Not what this these criminal lawyers did is not part of our THE COURT: All I'm saying is that the visual depiction of what Mr. Simpson did MR. KELLY: Judge -- MR. PETROCELLI: I can't make my argument any more clear. THE COURT: Well, I can't make my ruling any clearer. MR. PETROCELLI: Judge, could we take ten minutes? Because -- MR. BREWER: Yeah, we need to talk about this. THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. KELLY: Could we take a few minutes? THE COURT: Mr. Baker, they're still talking. MR. BAKER: I'm sorry. THE COURT: If you don't want to be part of it, that's okay. MR. BAKER: No. I thought we just -- I apologize, sir. I thought we finished. THE COURT: They don't want to go away. MR. PETROCELLI: Better off staying back. I haven't said a word. THE COURT: All right. Say what you said in his absence. MR. PETROCELLI: Your ruling -- THE COURT: Wait a minute. He said something in his absence. MR. PETROCELLI: Say it again. MR. KELLY: All I asked was for ten or fifteen minutes at this time to discuss MR. BAKER: Fine. MR. PETROCELLI: It's your ruling that he can play the video of the criminal THE COURT: My ruling is if you offered this witness to testify as to the And the cross-examination may include any demonstration, physical depiction of MR. PETROCELLI: Can we have a ruling through our witness he can't put the THE COURT: I will make this ruling: If Mr. Simpson wants to try on the gloves, MR. PETROCELLI: Can we have him putting the gloves on out of the presence? THE COURT: I'm not going to make him put on the gloves. MR. PETROCELLI: We don't want to, either. We want a ruling if he is, are you THE COURT: Only if he puts it on without latex. MR. PETROCELLI: You plan to have him do that? THE COURT: I don't think it's a fair depiction, a fair cross-examination. To MR. PETROCELLI: I would request that if you do decide to put the gloves on, in MR. BAKER: No. MR. PETROCELLI: We have no control over that. If he wants to do that in his THE COURT: Okay. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. MR. PETROCELLI: You'll give us fair warning? MR. BAKER: Of course. MR. KELLY: Can we take 15 minutes, Judge? THE COURT: Go to your room. (Indicating to jury.) (Laughter.) THE COURT: It will be about 15 minutes. (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. RICHARD RUBIN, called as a witness on behalf of Plaintiffs, was duly sworn and THE CLERK: You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause THE WITNESS: I do. THE CLERK: Thank you. Please be seated. THE WITNESS: Good morning, THE CLERK: Sir, would you please state an spell your name for the record. THE WITNESS: Richard Rubin, R-U-B-I-N. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KELLY: Q. Morning, Mr. Rubin. A. Good morning. Q. Mr. Rubin, are you presently employed? A. Yes, I am. Q. And where are you employed? A. I work for Westport Corporation, a manufacturer of small leather goods, in Q. How long have you been employed there? A. Six years. Q. Prior to that, were you employed somewhere else? A. Yes, I was. Q. Where was that? A. At Aris Isotoner, Inc., in New York City. Q. And what type of company is Aris Isotoner? A. It's a glove manufacturer and distribution organization. Q. And approximately what time did you leave Aris' employ? A. In August of 1990. Q. And when you left there in August of 1990, what position did you hold with A. I was vice-president and general manager. Q. And how long had you worked for Aris up to that point? A. Little over 14 years. Q. And as vice-president/general manager, what basically were your duties and A. My primary responsibility was the men's glove division, and my secondary Q. Were you familiar with basically every aspect in terms of the styling, A. Yes, I was. Q. Okay. And getting more specific now, are you familiar with the Aris men's A. Yes, I am. Q. Okay. And could you describe that particular glove for me in general terms, A. In the most general terms, the uniqueness of the glove is the fact that the Q. Before we go any further, how would you describe this glove, once again in A. It's a real top-of-the-line product. Q. Would you consider it a dressy glove? A. It is a dress glove. Q. And what colors was this particular glove, the Aris men's leather light, A. Black, brown, medium brown, which was called mink, and gray. Q. Okay. And what sizes? A. Small, medium, large, and extra large. Q. Okay. Now, this Aris men's leather light was manufactured by Aris; is that A. Yes, it was. Q. Okay. And where was that manufactured? Where was -- where was the manufacturing taking place, actually? A. For that glove, it was Metro Manila. Q. And in what country? A. Philippines. Q. Okay. Were there any particular years in which this Aris men's leather light glove A. It started in manufacturing in 1983, and commenced manufacturing with that Q. Okay. And was there anybody in particular that this glove was manufactured A. It was manufactured exclusively for Bloomingdale's Department Stores, New Q. When you say "manufactured exclusively," what do you mean by that? A. Bloomingdale's, being a store of its caliber, they wanted to separate Q. Okay. Mr. Rubin, before we go on, I want to go back to one thing. You indicated there was a particular stitch unique to this glove that we're A. The Brossar stitch. Q. Do you know what year they started utilizing this stitch? A. In this style or in any style? Q. In any style. A. Possibly over 100 years ago it was used in the production of gloves in Q. Did there come a time that the stitch you're referring to in 1983 was A. Yes. At the end of '91 beginning of '92. Q. So, I believe earlier, you had stated that that particular stitch started MR. BAKER: I move to strike "relative to when that stitch was changed." There THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) You stated earlier, I don't know, that you realized they A. '82. Q. '82. Okay. And there came a time later on, that stitch -- they started using a different In what year was that? A. '92. Q. Okay. Now, I want to direct your attention to 1990, specifically. Mr. Rubin, first of all, could you just tell me how many gloves -- how many A. Over four million pair. Q. Okay. And in 1990, did Aris still have this exclusive relationship with A. Yes, they did. Q. So all the Aris men's light leather gloves made by Aris were only sold in A. That's right. Q. And focusing on 1990, could you tell me how many pair of the Aris men's A. It was approximately 10,000 pair. Q. Okay. And could you tell me, staying with 1990 still, approximately how many of those A. Approximately 3600. Q. And taking this one step farther still, how many of those brown Aris men's A. Approximately 300. Q. And from, you know, out of those approximately 300 brown extra large pair of A. Between 200 and 240 pairs. Q. Okay. Can you tell me what was the largest size Aris men's leather light glove that A. Extra large. Q. Didn't come bigger than that, did it? A. No, it did not. Q. Okay. Now, in talking about this exclusive arrangement, Bloomingdale's -- MR. KELLY: I'm sorry, Your Honor. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) In speaking of this exclusive arrangement Bloomingdale's had A. That's correct. Q. In 1990, do you recall where those Bloomingdale's Department Stores were A. There were 13 of them, the majority being in the metro New York/New Jersey There was one store that opened up in Chicago that year. Q. And could you tell me in 1990 where the closest Bloomingdale's was relative A. Chicago. Q. None in between? A. No. Q. Okay. And there wasn't any in Los Angeles? A. Not at that point in time. Q. Do you know if Bloomingdale's ever opened in Los Angeles? A. I think they opened a store last week here. Q. Okay. Now, before, when we were discussing your familiarity with the Aris men's A. Yes. Q. And you also indicated a familiarity with the specific design and A. Yes. Q. Okay. Now, could you, in more detail if possible, describe in 1990 the style and A. Well, the two most distinctive features were the Brossar stitches, which And the second most visible characteristic was the blind hem, which was very And once you go past those two, you get a little more traditional. You have And then another very unique characteristic was the lining being extra Q. What about the gauge of the leather itself? A. And the very lightweight leather, being 5.5 millimeters. Q. And most of these characteristics, are these things that you would be able A. Yes. Q. And could you tell me whether these particular gloves were designed to fit A. They were designed to fit skin tight, be very slender. Q. And the gloves that were being sold in 1990 in the Bloomingdale's Department A. In the late fall: November, December of 1989; in the spring, once, of 1990. Q. And the characteristics that you just attributed to these gloves, that held A. That's correct. Q. Did there come a time that any of these characteristics that you just A. They changed the stitching from a Brossar stitching to a -- what is called a Q. Is the half PK stitch something you're able to visibly identify by looking A. It's very distinctive. Q. Would it be fair to say you would be able to, in effect, date the A. Yes, I would. Q. Okay. Now, with regard to the extra large gloves, is there a standard approximate MR. BAKER: Your Honor, I think that's a contradiction of terms. In those two THE COURT: You understand the question? MR. KELLY: I'll rephrase it, Judge. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Is there -- with the extra large Aris gloves, is there a A. In the manufacturing process, there is a pattern; and if it came out Q. Is there usually some variation on that length? A. Every piece of leather will have a little bit different flexibility and MR. KELLY: Your Honor, if I might hand these to the witness. THE COURT: Okay. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) I'm going to ask you to look at these two items. And one of (Witness reviews exhibits.) THE WITNESS: Do you want me to look at them through the bag, or do you want me MR. KELLY: Is it all right if opens the bag and takes them out, Your Honor? THE COURT: It's all right with me. (Witness opens bag and removes glove.) THE REPORTER: Excuse me. Is there a number? May I have that number? MR. BAKER: May we ask the witness not to pull the gloves. THE COURT: Don't pull the gloves. THE WITNESS: The number on the right hand is 164-A. MR. PETROCELLI: Those are the wrong numbers. Those are the exhibit numbers from MR. KELLY: The exhibit number in this matter is on the plastic itself. THE WITNESS: The number on this, number 9 -- MR. KELLY: It should be in the upper right-hand corner, 129. THE WITNESS: 204 or 1464-E. MR. PETROCELLI: And this? THE WITNESS: And this one is 129. And the right hand was 204 and the left hand (Witness removed both gloves from their packaging.) Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Have you seen those gloves prior to today, Mr. Rubin? A. Yes, I have. Q. And you saw them over a year ago, actually, in Mr. Simpson's criminal trial; A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you have an opportunity at that time to measure the length of those A. Yes, I did. Q. You measured those gloves at this time. What was the length of the gloves when you measured them, if you recall? A. Nine and three-eighths inches long. Q. Approximately an inch less than the standard length? A. Approximately. Q. What percent is smaller than the standard extra large would that have made A. Between 10 and 11 percent. Q. And what would you attribute, or could you attribute that differential of MR. BAKER: I'm going to object. Foundation; calls for speculation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Combination of normal wear and tear, time, and shrinkage. Q. MR. KELLY: Are you familiar with the sales receipts of Bloomingdale's? A. I've seen them. Q. Okay. You familiar with the different descriptions on them in viewing them? A. Yes, I am. Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: If we can see 390, Steve. (Mr. Foster displays Exhibit 390.) Q. MR. KELLY: Are you able to see that where you're sitting, Mr. Rubin, or A. I can see it. I'm familiar with it. Q. Okay. Can you describe -- MR. BAKER: Your Honor, I'm going to object. This is beyond the scope of this THE COURT: Overruled. You want him to look at that? Go ahead. MR. KELLY: Yes. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, may we be heard on this? We had a stipulation relative to these witnesses, that they wouldn't go beyond MR. KELLY: There was some testimony from the criminal trial -- THE COURT: Okay. Approach the bench. (The following proceedings were held at the bench, with the reporter:) THE COURT: What stipulation haven't I seen? MR. BAKER: We have a stipulation, and I think the stipulation was that we THE COURT: Okay. Cite me chapter and verse. MR. KELLY: Where he cites it? THE COURT: Yeah. MR. KELLY: Okay. Your Honor, this is foundational. THE COURT: I don't care. When there's an objection, I have to rule. MR. KELLY: Okay. Let me see if we can pull that out. (Pause in the proceedings.) MR. KELLY: Pull it up on our computer quickly. Judge, in the prior testimony there, he repeatedly refers to the SKU and style This was the only thing I was going to ask him to testify to for foundational It's mentioned approximately 15 times in the trial transcript in his testimony THE COURT: Okay. (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Mr. Rubin, were you aware of a SKU number that was assigned A. I was aware of our SKU number. Q. Was that a style number? A. Yes. Q. What style number was that? A. 70263. Q. And what was 70263 collective of? A. Well, the first two digits reflected the fact that it was a men's leather Q. Okay. By the way, do you know whether -- Do you know, in December of 1990, what the list -- THE COURT: Mr. Kelly. MR. KELLY: I'm sorry, Your Honor. I'm sorry. An old habit. THE COURT: I don't want Mr. Kelly to feel disadvantaged by the fact I keep So I'm asking all of the attorneys to stay well to the right of that last MR. KELLY: I'm not the only one that doesn't listen. (Laughter.) THE COURT: Thank you. MR. KELLY: Okay. Could I have my last question read back. (The reporter read the record as follows:) "Q. Okay. By the way, do you know whether -- Do you know, in December of 1990, Q. (BY MR. KELLY) The list price of these men's Aris leather light gloves was? A. Fifty-five dollars. Q. Do you know whether there was a sale going on at Bloomingdale's? A. On occasion, they had sales. And yes, at this time, they did have a sale. Q. Do you know what the sale price of that item was? A. It was -- this particular sale was a 30-percent discount. MR. BAKER: No foundation, Your Honor. THE COURT: Lay a foundation. MR. BAKER: To this witness' knowledge. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Do you have any personal knowledge as to whether or not the A. On occasion, it was changed. Q. Well, I have to ask you, specifically, do you have your own knowledge A. Yes, it was. Q. And do you know what it was changed to? A. Certain times it was 25 percent off; at certain times it was 30 percent off. Q. In December of 1990, do you know what the percentage was? A. Thirty percent off. Q. Do you know what that would reduce that fifty-five-dollar list price to? A. Thirty-eight fifty. Q. Would it be fair to say that two pair of those gloves at $55 each, reduced A. Seventy-seven dollars. Q. Now, I want to go back to Exhibits 129 and 204 a little bit. Do you have those in front of you still? A. Yes. Q. When you indicated that you recognize those from the criminal trial of Mr. A. I recognized them long before the criminal trial, but I do recognize these Q. Those particular gloves I'm speaking of. A. This pair. Q. Okay. And did you have occasion, when you were testifying in the criminal trial, to MR. BAKER: I'm going to object. That misstates the evidence. The prosecution and the judge ordered Mr. Simpson to put those gloves on. THE COURT: It's a neutral question. Overruled. MR. KELLY: Can you read the question back to him, please. (The reporter read the record as follows:) "Q. And did you have occasion, when you were testifying in the criminal trial, THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Were you able to -- You actually saw him conduct that demonstration himself, where he did put the A. That's correct. Q. And did you form an opinion, yourself, as to whether or not the gloves fit? A. Yes, I did. Q. And what was your opinion on that? A. They fit with a poor quality of fit, but they fit. Q. And when you say they fit with a poor quality, what do you base that opinion A. They were -- They were one inch short in the wrist. Q. And do you have an opinion as to what would have caused them to be that one MR. BAKER: Objection. Foundation; calls for speculation. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: In this particular case, there were two issues: One was the fact MR. BAKER: I move to strike as nonresponsive, Your Honor, as to his opinion, THE COURT: You may state your response to the question MR. KELLY: Can you read the question back to him, please. (The reporter read the record as follows:) "Q. And do you have an opinion as to what would have caused them to be that one Q. Were there any factors you take into consideration? A. The first factor was that the gloves were actually one inch shorter than Q. Okay? A. -- in a north/south position. The second factor was that there was a requirement to utilize latex linings Q. You mean in simple terms, Mr. Simpson had latex gloves on; is that correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. A. And the third issue was that the actual overall condition of the gloves, Q. So when you put gloves on, you -- A. Work them out a little bit. Q. To the best of your knowledge, that had not been done with these particular MR. BAKER: Objection. Leading. THE COURT: Sustained as leading. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) And those were the three factors that you base your opinion A. That's correct. Q. Okay. And I believe earlier, you mentioned -- you stated your reasons for the A. Yes, I did. Q. Once again, what was that attributed to? A. Normal wear and tear, time, and shrinkage. Q. Okay. Now, looking at 129 again -- Do you have that it in front of you, there Mr. Rubin? A. This is the left-hand glove? Q. Yes. A. Yes. Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to examine that glove closely at this time. (Witness complies, reviews exhibit.) THE WITNESS: Okay. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Okay. You had a chance to look at it? A. Could I put my hand in it? Q. Sure. Yes. (Witness puts hand in exhibit.) MR. BAKER: Can you put your hands in it where I can see? (Witness complies.) (Witness puts on Exhibit 129.) Q. (BY MR. KELLY) While you are on this, Mr. Rubin, if you can, take a look at A. Yes. Q. Can you describe all the characteristics of that particular glove that you A. One would be the unique stitching, sewing the glove completely together. Two is this blind hem at the end of the wrist. Q. I'm sorry. Going back, is there a name you had for that stitching? A. Brossar stitching. Q. Okay. I'm sorry? A. The blind hem at the end of the wrist. Then the other more common And then there's a palm vent in the wrist. And then there's this thin cashmere lining, ten-gauge liner. Q. Okay. Are you able to tell me, after looking at all those specific characteristics, A. It's still 70263, brown, extra large. Q. There's another men's Aris leather light? A. Yes. Q. Is there a label? A. Yes, there is. Q. It says the same thing? A. It says the name and the size and the content and manufacturer; it does not Q. Okay. Now, have you had an opportunity to look at the inside of the lining of the A. I did during the criminal trial. Q. If you recall still, are there any identifying characteristics or anything A. There's a size marking, there's a cutter number, and a sequence control Q. Okay. First of all, we know the size number just indicates the size of the glove, A. Correct. Q. Okay. What is the cutter number? A. I'm going to have to pull the lining out for a second to -- Q. Okay. A. -- see that. Q. Sure. A. The cutter number is 359. The sequence or control number is 9. And then the XL is the size. Q. Now, what exactly is a cutter number? A. The cutter number is the actual individual who was given the leather to cut Q. And what is the sequence number, by definition? A. The sequence number was to keep all the parts together so that the colors Q. Okay. There was an extra large; the cutter number sequence number 9? A. Yes. Q. I'm going ask you to look at 204, which would be the right-hand glove there. Also, if you can go through the same process, first of all, of trying it on. MR. BAKER: I don't understand why he's trying it on, Your Honor. I don't THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Now, while you're trying that glove on and looking at it, I'm A. It has the same characteristics as the other half pair. Q. That's the Brossar stitch and the three-point needles -- the three needle A. Yes. Q. Okay. And are you able to tell me with certainty who the manufacturer of that glove First of all, can you tell me, without looking at the label, Mr. Rubin, who A. This is an Aris 70263 brown glove. Q. Okay. Now, I see you're already doing it. I was going to ask you to look inside the (Witness complies, turns glove inside out.) A. Yes. The cutter number was 359; the sequence number is 9; and the size is Q. As a result of looking at those identifying characteristics of the two A. They are a pair. Q. No doubt about that? A. No doubt about it. Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: Now, if I could just have one minute. (Pause in proceedings.) MR. KELLY: Steve, if we could go to -- Well, before we go to that -- Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Mr. Rubin, also in the criminal trial that we discussed A. Yes, I did. Q. Okay. Those were basically Mr. Simpson wearing gloves at different times? A. That's correct. Q. And in addition to viewing them in court, did you make some sort of A. Yes. Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: Now, first of all, can we put up Exhibit 642, Steve (Mr. Foster complies.) Q. Now, first of all, do you recognize the individual in the photograph? A. Yes, I do. Q. And that's Mr. Simpson? A. I believe so. Q. Okay. The man you saw with the gloves in the criminal trial; is that correct? A. Correct. Q. Okay. Now, looking at 642 -- MR. KELLY: First of all, I didn't see -- Steve, can you put up 643? (Mr. Foster complies.) MR. KELLY: Steve, it's just the close-up. I want the close-up, please. (Mr. Foster complies.) Q. (BY MR. KELLY) This is basically the close-up of the picture you were Could you examine the glove closely that's blurred on the screen right now? A. I can do my best. Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: Steve, can you take it back a little further, even? (Mr. Foster complies.) MR. KELLY: That's good. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) I'm going ask you if you can look at this and identify the A. I can see three characteristics. Q. What characteristics? A. The very fine rib stitches, which is indicative of the Brossar stitch; the Q. Okay. And based on those characteristics, are you able to conclude the manufacture A. It would appear to me to be a Brossar 70263 style. Q. The Aris men's leather light? A. Yes. Q. And based on the type of stitching, would you be able to opine as to when A. The bulk of the gloves that we made Brossar stitches on were made in the Q. That stitch wasn't used after '92, I believe you indicated. A. That's correct. MR. KELLY: Now, 655 Steve. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) By the way, that picture that was just taken down. What color A. It appeared to be black. Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: And just before you put that up, Steve, I want to ask him one other Q. (BY MR. KELLY) The previous glove -- I'm sorry, Mr. Rubin. I'm going put I'm going to ask you, excluding color, would you be able to tell me how it A. It's the same. Q. Identical manufacture, make, model, style, and everything? A. Yes. THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. Is a that 643? MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. (Exhibit 643 displayed.) MR. KELLY: Now 645. I'm sorry. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Now, I'd ask you to look at that glove in that photo, first A. Yes. Q. Are you able to observe some of the characteristics we've spoken of before? A. I can see two characteristics. Q. Which ones are those? A. The Brossar stitching and the three needle points that is in the middle of Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: And can you throw up 656, Steve? Would it help for the lights to be turned off? JUROR: Sure. MR. KELLY: Your Honor, could we turn the lights off for this viewing? THE COURT: You may. (Exhibit 656 displayed.) MR. KELLY: Little further back. Q. Looking at that photo, are you able to observe any of the specific A. Just the Brossar stitching at the top of the gloves, where it goes around -- Q. Okay. And based on those, I believe you referred to them as "unique details;" is that A. Yes. Q. Are you able to reach a conclusion as to the manufacture, make, and model A. Both -- that is the most unique detail to style 70263, so I would say this Q. I'm sorry. What is the most unique? A. The Brossar stitching. Q. Okay. And excluding color, can you tell me how that glove compares to the two gloves A. They're the same. Q. Excluding color; is that correct? A. That's correct. MR. KELLY: Now, 660, please. (Exhibit 660 is displayed.) MR. KELLY: Focus in a little on that glove, Steve. (Mr. Foster complies.) Q. (BY MR. KELLY) I'll ask you to take a look at that glove. Tell me when you can observe any of the specific characteristics we've been A. In this glove, I can see the Brossar stitching around the fingers, the three Q. You can actually see the tag, can you not? A. But that is not an unusual characteristic; that just happens to be there Q. This is sort of a throw-in? A. Yes. MR. KELLY: I'll withdraw the last comment. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Can you actually identify that as an Aris label? A. I cannot read anything on the label. It appears to be in the same location that we put our labels in, compared to Q. Okay. And even excluding the tag altogether, would you be able to identify that from A. Yes. And in this one, there also -- you can see the brown tint to the cashmere Q. And where is that, by the way, THE WITNESS: Can you raise the glove up a little bit on the screen? Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Can you point that out, please. A. It would be in this area right here. (Indicating.) Q. And the stitch you spoke of, what year did they stop using that particular A. In 1992. Q. Okay. So if you had to date that glove in a particular time, would you? A. Bulk of it is late '80s. Q. But before '92? A. Yes. Q. And in looking in that glove, would you tell me how that compares to the two A. Same style. Q. Would it be fair to say it's identical, except for color? A. Yes. Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: Now, if we could go to -- you can take that off, Steve. (Mr. Foster removes exhibit from TV screen.) (Counsel displays blow-up photo.) MR. KELLY: Is that better, to use a picture? Actually, if I could hand this to the witness first, Judge. THE COURT: You may. MR. KELLY: Yeah. Take a look at that. Can you put that 641 up. THE WITNESS: Okay. (Witness reviews Exhibit 641.) MR. KELLY: Why don't you lay it flat here for reference. If you could, zoom in a little on the gloves, Steve. (Mr. Foster adjusts TV screen.) Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Now, looking at that glove, both on the screen and the A. I can see the Brossar stitching on the photo. I really can't see it on this screen, but I can see the blind hem and the MR. KELLY: Get that in, Steve. (Mr. Foster adjusts TV screen.) Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Is that better, Mr. Rubin? A. It is. Q. Looking at the photograph, enlargements from the view, are you able to -- A. I'd like to stick to the photo, please. Q. Okay. What specific characteristics are you able to observe? A. The Brossar stitching on the top of the forefinger at the top, and the three And also the characteristics of the light leather shows -- up here, where you Q. And what color of manufacture is that glove, by the way? A. It's a brown shade. Q. That's a brown. MR. KELLY: Steve, could I briefly see 645? (Mr. Foster displays Exhibit 645.) MR. KELLY: If you could, zoom in on the gloves a little bit. (Mr. Foster adjusts TV screen.) Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Are you able to see the -- any of the specific A. On the screen, it's a little blurry, Mr. Kelly. I've seen the photo before. Q. Okay. A. I've identified the photo before on the screen. I'm not -- I can't say that MR. KELLY: Can we try 646 to see if it's any better? (Mr. Foster displays Exhibit 646.) THE WITNESS: This is better. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Okay. Are you able, from that photograph there, to identify the -- any of the A. I can see the fine ridge of the Brossar stitching on a couple -- on a couple Q. Can you make any observation as to the hem we've been speaking of? A. It's a little -- it's a little dark to -- I'll reserve judgment on that. Q. Okay. Looking on the photo you have in front of you, though -- A. The hem is clear. Q. And what observation do you make about the photo in front of you? A. It's a blind hem. (Referring to photo Exhibit 646.) MR. KELLY: I'm going ask you to put up pictures 645 and 646 again, see if (Witness reviews actual photo.) THE WITNESS: Yes, I can see on both photos. I can see the Brossar stitching, Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Okay. If you could, just -- MR. KELLY: Actually, let me take them back from you. Steve, if I could see 654, please, if we go to frame 4583. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) I ask you to look specifically at the left-hand glove in that A. Yes. Q. Can you make any observation as to specific characteristics we discussed A. Yes. The palm vent is visible on the left hand. Q. And what exactly do you mean by "the palm vent?" You keep mentioning that. A. In the palm of the hand, there's usually a vent that would help a person Q. With 129 or 204, could you hold one of those up for the jury and A. This is the vent. (Indicating to glove.) MR. KELLY: I've shown you -- if we could go to, Steve, 5548, 49. If you could look at the -- Take it back down, Steve. Stop right there. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Are you able to make an observation -- I don't know if it's A. It's totally blurred to me. Q. Okay. (Reviewing videotape.) Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Would you agree with me that all of these photographs were A. It appears that way. Q. Okay. You've seen them all before, have you not? MR. BAKER: Wait. I object. He is asking this witness to say that all these MR. KELLY: I'll withdraw the question, Your Honor. Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Okay. With regard to 641, once again, which would be the enlargement down here -- A. Yes. Q. Okay. MR. KELLY: And if you could flip up, Steve, on the video once again, frame Q. (BY MR. KELLY) Could you state for me all the specific characteristics of A. There are four of them. Q. What are those? A. The Brossar stitching on the fingers closing the glove down the side, the Q. And based on those specific characteristics you just mentioned, are you able A. 70263, brown. Q. That's the Aris men's leather light? A. Yes, it is. Q. Okay. Can you tell me how that 70263 Aris men's leather light brown, those gloves A. Same style, color. Q. Is it fair to say they're identical? A. Yes. MR. KELLY: If I could have one moment. (Pause in proceedings.) MR. KELLY: I have no further questions. THE COURT: Cross-examine. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER: Q. Mr. Rubin, how much time have you spent with the plaintiff attorneys since A. Less than three hours. Q. How much time on the telephone and in person? A. On the telephone, less than 15 minutes. Q. If -- and the other three hours you've been together with them? A. Yes. Q. And how much time did you spend with the district attorney, when you were MR. KELLY: Objection. Irrelevant. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I lost count. However, I was out there four different times. If I Q. (BY MR. BAKER) And you viewed the videotape many times with Mr. Simpson MR. KELLY: Objection. Irrelevant. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: You've seen it. MR. BAKER: And let's play that now, Phil. MR. PETROCELLI: Our position is on the record, Your Honor. THE COURT: It is. MR. BAKER: We're going to get there. I'm sorry. You want to -- MR. KELLY: I'd object to the audio. THE COURT: Excuse me? MR. KELLY: I object to the audio being played. THE COURT: All right. Keep the audio off. (Video of Mr. Simpson putting on gloves is played while audio is turned off.) THE COURT: What are you doing? MR. BAKER: I think he put the other one -- (Video continues playing.) MR. BAKER: Okay. (Video stops playing.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) That's what you saw in the courtroom? A. That's correct. Q. Those gloves fit across the palm, did they? A. I didn't say that. Q. I just asked you that? A. They actually did fit across the palm. Q. They did? A. Yes. Q. What we saw is, in your opinion, those gloves both fit Mr. Simpson, right? MR. KELLY: Objection. Argumentative. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) In your opinion, sir, those gloves both fit Mr. Simpson; yes A. Yes. Q. And in your opinion, is that -- the latex makes it easier or harder to put A. Harder. Q. You should have never put the latex on in that courtroom that Mr. Simpson A. That's not true. Q. Let me ask you a couple of questions. Relative to your viewing of, first of all, the -- did you look at the A. No, I did not. MR. KELLY: Objection. Well -- Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You don't know whether the D.A. measured the glove, that is, MR. KELLY: Objection. Irrelevant, beyond the scope. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge of that. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, let's talk about you say the gloves were unused, that A. I have no knowledge of that. Q. So you don't know, as you sit here today whether or not those gloves had A. I -- that's not true. I had an indication that they had not been used, or Q. Well, when Mr. Simpson put the gloves on, it wasn't your first visit, was A. Yes, it was. Q. Well, is it your testimony that you were told that no one, since those MR. KELLY: Objection. Asking for hearsay, Your Honor. MR. BAKER: Goes to the state of his mind, Your Honor. MR. KELLY: Could I ask -- THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection. MR. KELLY: Could I have that picture taken off the screen while we're at this THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did anyone indicate to you that the gloves had not been used In forming the opinions that you gave here today in court, was it your opinion, MR. KELLY: Objection. Calls for hearsay, Your Honor. THE COURT: You may answer, yes or no. THE WITNESS: It was not discussed with me. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) So, you didn't have any knowledge based upon the D.A.'s MR. KELLY: Objection. Calls for hearsay, asked and answered. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Well, assuming those gloves had been tried on multiple times, MR. KELLY: Objection. Argumentative. THE COURT: Assumes a fact not in evidence. MR. KELLY: Assumes -- MR. BAKER: It's a hypothetical, obviously. This is an expert witness. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. BAKER: On which ground? THE COURT: Not a basis for the hypothetical. MR. BAKER: Your Honor, I will tie it up. THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection at this point. MR. BAKER: Let me make an offer of proof. We will tie it up but those gloves MR. PETROCELLI: We object to his testifying. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. KELLY: Ask that last comment be stricken also. THE COURT: It's stricken. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, let's talk a little bit about Brossar stitching, may we, MR. KELLY: Objection to the form of the question. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, Mr. Rubin, Brossar stitching has been used for over 100 A. That's correct. Q. And Brossar stitching is a particular type of stitching made from a Singer A. In the facility that I'm familiar with, it was. Q. And it's been made, not only in the facility that's run by Aris, but it's A. I'm not aware of that. Q. Did you check to find out? A. Yes, I did. Q. You checked with two glove manufacturers. How many glove manufacturers are A. None. Q. Well, how many glove -- how many people do we import our gloves for that A. There may be six or ten. Q. It's over a dozen people, manufacturers that have labels on gloves in this A. No, there may be licensed products and importers, but as far as Q. All right. Then, let's start back in. The Brossar stitching was not unique A. For my 14 years in the business, I was not aware of Brossar stitching being Q. Before you became involved in this case, you didn't do an analysis to A. Prior to this case? Q. Yes. A. I did nothing. Q. Now, in manufacturers in the world, how many manufacturers in the world are A. I don't have a good answer on that. There may be hundreds and hundreds of Q. And did you say that the answer would be true relative to Brossar stitching A. I'm not aware of them. Q. In fact, smaller companies would generally use Brossar stitching over large A. I don't have any knowledge to verify that. Q. Well, the machines that you're company used were manufactured in the 40's A. Or before. Q. And they were old machines that could be purchased relatively cheaply A. The only reason I would have to disagree with what you're saying is that the Q. Sir, maybe my question is a poor one. Certainly in modern countries we want A. True. Q. In -- a lot of gloves are manufactured in third world countries; isn't that A. Correct. Q. And in third world countries, the issue of efficiency isn't as great as the A. It's a combination of both. Q. All right. Now, the three points on a glove, virtually every machine's dress A. They have the three points. They're not all necessarily in the same Q. But I mean there's one down the middle and then they usually have points to A. That's -- I'm talking about a three-needle point versus just a point. Q. All right. And the palm, virtually every dress glove that are made for men, A. Mainly in men's. Q. Okay. Now, as I understand it, these gloves are made to fit skin tight and that's the A. Very dressy, very skin tight. Q. And so they're not what one would consider a glove that you would wear, for A. I wouldn't recommend it. Q. If it gets 20 degrees below zero, it's not the type of glove you want on; A. That's correct. Q. You want a bulky glove that has more leather an certainly a thicker lining? A. That's correct. Q. Just for the warmth of the glove? A. That's correct. Q. Especially, if you're going to use a glove, you know, and you're going to be A. Not in severe weather. Q. Okay. Now, the lining of that glove is as you suggested, I think, particularly thin, A. That's correct. Q. And the lining of that glove would be the first thing to wear out in the A. In this model, yes. Q. And in the linings, when you first look at those gloves, showed very little A. That's true. Q. And the palm of the glove should wear out after the lining in normal usage, A. Yes, I would. Q. And the palm in these gloves are in, I believe, which one is it, the right A. I don't know what the question is, so -- Q. That's a good point: There's wear indications in the right glove, correct, A. That's correct. Q. In the palm. True? A. True. Q. With no corresponding wear in the lining underneath it, correct? A. True. Q. And indeed, Mr. Rubin, the gloves -- and I watched you put them on -- you've A. Yes, I did. Q. And Mr. Simpson's hands are considerably larger than yours, you would agree? A. They're larger than mine. Q. The gloves are designed to be put on and then as you did, pushed down A. Yes. Q. And those aren't gloves that come off very easily, are they, once you get MR. P. BAKER: I have no idea what that is. MR. KELLY: Your Honor, objection. I believe there's a question pending right MR. BAKER: I'll withdraw it. MR. KELLY: Thank you. THE COURT: Take the lights down. (Lights are lowered in courtroom.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now looking at the glove, that glove appears tight; is it A. Across the knuckle area, yes. Q. And that glove, to come off a human being such as -- well, strike that. In terms of your measurements, Mr. Simpson has a pretty wide palm, does he not? MR. KELLY: Objection to the form of the question. THE COURT: Can't you get it better focused than that? MR. KELLY: Objection was to the form, "pretty wide." THE COURT: Rephrase it. (Exhibit No. 641 is displayed.) Q. (BY MR. BAKER) I take it, in measuring the palm and the breadth of Mr. A. I've measured thousand of people's hands. Q. In Mr. Simpson -- in terms of -- through the palm, that is the width of the A. Mr. Simpson's exact size is a -- is a perfect extra large in the palm and a Q. Well, in terms then of the width of his hand, the width, you say is extra A. Gloves are measured across. Q. Now, you have to answer my question. A. He is a perfect, extra large across where you measure for size. Q. And as I was attempting to ask you, sir, in terms of the size across the A. Nine and a half on the left and nine and five eighths on the right at that Q. All right. And his hand is rather thick, is it not? That is the area of the MR. KELLY: Objection as to the form of question, Judge. THE COURT: What's wrong with it? I don't understand the objection. Thick is -- MR. KELLY: Guess it's overruled then, right? THE COURT: Yeah. (Laughter.) THE WITNESS: Mr. Simpson's hand is larger at the bottom compared to proportion Q. (BY MR. BAKER) All right. And so once you would put these brown gloves on, A. They're a shade of brown. Q. Those brown gloves in 641, which were a different shade than the gloves you A. I would. Q. All right. So those aren't -- you're not suggesting those are the same color A. I can't say that, because my experience is that gloves do darken with age. Q. All right. So are you familiar with the Cincinnati Bengals uniforms at all? A. Yes. Q. The colors that you see in Boomer Esiason's -- below his jacket. Does that Let me -- You're familiar with their kind of -- their Bengal colors, are you Does this look like the Bengal colors? MR. KELLY: Objection. Compound question. Lack of foundation, Judge. THE COURT: He said he's familiar with them, overruled. MR. KELLY: Oh. THE WITNESS: It's in the same family of colors of the Bengal's uniform. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) All right. And you don't have any indication that the color A. I wouldn't know one way or another. Q. Okay. Now, in terms of then putting on the gloves, this is the type of glove that you A. Each individual does it differently. But if you want to get it on the best The biggest problem with this glove, with this lining is you put your hand in, Q. Once you get the glove on, as you suggested earlier, it is exceedingly skin A. Yes. Q. And so -- and that Mr. Simpson up there, that glove, whatever glove it is, A. I would agree. Q. All right? A. Based upon the fact that his hand is cupped, that's what broadens out the Q. And to get that glove off, you're going to have to pull it off by the finger That's how the 70263 Aris leather light glove is made, is it not, so it comes A. It shouldn't come off hard if your hand is straight. Q. It's not going to fall off, is it? A. It should not fall off. Q. It's not going to fall off in two different locations, is it? MR. KELLY: Objection. Argumentative, irrelevant, speculative. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Do you know if Mr. Simpson was ever known for fumbling -- MR. KELLY: Ask that the previous question be withdrawn. Also, there's no answer THE COURT: Overruled. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Now, let's talk a little bit about the production of these A. That's correct. Q. And they were sold at Bloomingdale's, that has 179 stores, correct? A. They don't have -- to my knowledge, they do not have 179 stores. Q. Did they have 179 stores in 1990? A. They had 13 stores in 1990. Q. Total? It's your testimony they had total of 13 stores in 1990? A. Yes. Q. What was the -- you seem to know specific numbers for 1990, the production A. That's correct. Q. All right. Now, tell me what the specific production of -- of the 70263 was in 1983? A. I was asked that question. I estimate the production from '83 to 1988 and Q. Well, in 1989 -- for 1990, Bloomingdale's ordered 12,096 pairs, did they A. That -- they didn't order 12,000. I put 12,000 into production. They ordered Q. So the 12, the 12,008 (sic) pairs was not the Bloomingdale's order for 1990? A. That was the -- that was the manufacturing order. Q. Now, is it true -- well, strike that. What was the 1991 production? A. I wasn't there. Q. What was the 1992 production? A. I was not there. Q. What was the 1990 production? A. A thousand dozen. Q. I thought that was 1989 for sale in 1990? A. No, no the production order was written probably in June of 1989 for Q. Okay. What was the '89 production then? A. Probably about 6,000 pair. Q. How about '88, do we have an estimate of that, sir? A. When I started with 1200 pair in '83 and I started graduating it up based Q. Do you have an estimate of 1988 production, was the question. I didn't ask A. 4800 pair. Q. And you don't know what colors were manufactured of those 30, 35,000 pairs, A. Totally less than 5,000 pair. Q. Now, that pair that you have in front of you is brown, correct? A. Correct. Q. The pair in 641 appears to be the color mean, does it not or does it? THE COURT: It's not up there. MR. BAKER: Put it back up. A. I'm really not sure what color it is. Otherwise it looks -- it's a brownish Q. Thanks so much. (Exhibit 641 is displayed.) Q. The glove you have in front of you are in the dark brown family, aren't A. These are in the brown family. Q. The dark brown family as contrasted to the gloves in 641, which is -- are A. They are dark brown now. Q. All right. Tell me about the cuts that you know on those gloves. You've done A. I've seen them. Q. And have you seen -- you've inspected them in detail, have you not? A. Yes, I have. Q. Tell me if there are any cuts over the left middle finger on the left-hand A. On the left hand, I do not see any cuts. Q. Not a cut at all, correct? A. Not on the left-hand glove. Q. Okay. I want you to inspect the palm. I want you to inspect every finger of the glove A. I do not see any. Q. Okay. Now, please look at Exhibit 204. That's the right-hand glove, sir. Thank you. A. I don't think I'm qualified to tell the difference between a wear mark and a Q. Well, then, we'll frame it a different way, if we can. In terms of the indications on the palm of 204, the right-hand glove, is there A. It doesn't appear as wear because it would -- if it was wear, it would Q. Now, on the back of the glove is there any indication that a knife may have A. I'm not qualified to answer that. Q. Anything on the right thumb? MR. KELLY: Objection. He's indicated he's not qualified to answer that THE COURT: I think he only asked anything on the right thumb. MR. KELLY: It was a follow-up to the previous question that he indicated. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. KELLY: Okay. THE WITNESS: There's an opened cut mark of some sort on the thumb, too. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Okay. Now, did you -- when you inspected those gloves, did -- you looked at the A. Yes. Q. Did you know whether or not there was any appearance of anything that A. I wouldn't know it if I saw it. Q. Was there any dark stains on the interior of the linings, Mr. Rubin? A. I did not see any. Q. Did you see any stains at all on the lining? A. I did not. Q. Now, in the right-hand glove, there is an opening on the right thumb, the A. That's correct. Q. Now, did you have any discussions with anyone from the LADA's office as to MR. KELLY: Objection. Calls for hearsay, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: Thank you, sir. THE COURT: 1:30, ladies and gentlemen. Don't talk about the case. Don't form or (At 11:58 A.M. a recess was taken until 1:35 P.M. of the same day.)
SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER) (Jurors resume their respective seats.) RICHARD RUBIN, the witness on the stand at the time of the recess, having been THE COURT: You may proceed. MR. BAKER: Thank you. CROSS EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) BY MR. BAKER: Q. Good afternoon, sir. A. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Q. Did you tell me -- What -- did you get paid for your testimony in the District Attorney -- From MR. KELLY: Objection. Irrelevant. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: Not to this point. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Did you bill them, let me ask you that? A. I filled out the form. I was never paid. (Laughter.) Q. You mean our tax dollars aren't being spent wisely? Now, how much are you billing the plaintiffs' in this case? A. I am not billing them anything. Q. You're not charging anything? A. No. Q. And you became kind of enamored with the fact that you were testifying in A. I don't believe I become enamored. Q. Well, you suggested ways for the prosecution to get additional evidence to MR. KELLY: Objection. Hearsay, irrelevant, speculative, argumentative. THE COURT: Overruled. MR. BAKER: All known grounds. THE WITNESS: Excuse me? THE COURT: You may answer. THE WITNESS: They asked me how they could find as much information as possible Q. (BY MR. BAKER) All right. So they asked you, regarding the gloves, and you MR. GELBLUM: We'll mark the document 2147 and the videotape as 2146. (The instrument herein referred to Court TV videotape of glove demonstration (The instrument herein referred to as correspondence from Richard Rubin dated THE WITNESS: I'm familiar with this. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Okay. Now, this letter is July 6 of '95, right? A. That's correct. Q. And that was before, of course, the defense had ever even started putting on A. That's correct. Q. And you say you're telling the D.A. there in your letter (reading): As a point of reference, have all of the mens coats/jackets been checked in the That's what you were telling -- giving advise to the district attorney's office A. That was actually in response to a question that was asked to me. Q. I see. Was the next paragraph in response to a question that was asked of "... If you should have any questions, please feel free to contact me at any Q. (BY MR. BAKER) Was that in response to a question, Mr. Rubin? A. Actually the first two sentences are probably the end of every letter I've Q. Gest about the victory party. You figured you did a pretty good job for them A. Actually, I didn't think I did a very good job. Q. I see. So you were just kidding around about the victory party for the A. As I said before I -- Q. Is that right? A. It was in gest. Q. Were you just kidding around? A. Yes. Q. And then you said, just kidding around. (Reading): "At your convenience, could you obtain business cards from all the members of Were you kidding around with that, sir? A. No, I was not. Q. Okay. You wanted all that. Did you ask for the cards of all the lawyers A. They actually gave me their cards. Q. You want mine? A. If you like to give it to me, I'll take it. Q. I don't think so. (Laughter.) Q. Now, relative to -- relative to the -- this morning, we took about a 20 MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. MR. KELLY: Objection. Argumentative, foundation, speculative, assumes facts not THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You asked -- Strike that. You told Mr. Kelly that you could convince this jury, did you not, that the MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. There's no good faith basis to that question at all. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) For 15 minutes, you were huddled right here at this podium MR. KELLY: Objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: No, we were not. Q. (BY MR. BAKER) You were here talking to Mr. Kelly how long about the A. Mr. Baker was not even aware that the tape would be shown when I arrived Q. I'm not talking about when you arrived here, sir. I was talking about A. No, we did -- did not. Q. Never touched on that at all? A. Not today. Q. When did you touch on it? A. It was mentioned when I first arrived that the tape might eventually get Q. And so you went over the fact that you could, in your mind -- Strike that. I MR. KELLY: Can I have one moment, Judge? REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KELLY: Q. Mr. Rubin, Mr. Baker had asked you to -- for an estimate of total number of A. That's correct. Q. Did that number include gloves of every manufacturer make, size, color, A. Every color, size within that style. Q. Okay. That wasn't just the brown? A. No, it was not. Q. Okay. I have no further questions. MR. BAKER: Nothing further. THE COURT: Thank you. You're excused. MR. PETROCELLI: Your Honor? THE COURT: Yes. MR. PETROCELLI: We have a two-hour and 50 plus minute videotape of the We can break it up as long as you would -- THE COURT: Two hours and what? MR. PETROCELLI: 50. THE COURT: Two hours and five zero? MR. PETROCELLI: 47 minutes, Your Honor. The direct is very short, but the THE COURT: Okay. You can run it 'till about 1:30, we'll take a break -- 2:30, MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. THE COURT: Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you. I guess we should have the lights down. (Recess.) THE COURT: It's 2:30 and 3:30. MR. PETROCELLI: 2:30 and 3:30. THE COURT: Okay. Defense . . . Hello. MR. BAKER: I'm sorry, sir. THE COURT: Can we get a stipulation that the reporter does not have to take MR. BAKER: Yes, sir. No objection. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. PETROCELLI: I am proposing to have all the objections as to form that MR. BAKER: I'm not so willing. I can't remember what's on the video. I didn't MR. PETROCELLI: As to form. THE COURT: Would you -- unless you verbally state an objection live. MR. BAKER: Okay. That's fair. THE COURT: We'll deem it to be waived MR. BAKER: That's totally fair. That means I have to stay in the room for this. THE COURT: Well, yes. (Laughter.) (The following proceedings were held in open court in the presence of the Q. In the event an objection is interjected, I'll stop the videotape. (At 2:55 P.M., the videotaped deposition of Harry Scull was played.) THE COURT: Okay. Take a ten minute recess, ladies and gentlemen. (The tape was stopped and a recess Taken.) (Jurors exit courtroom.) (The following proceedings were held in open court outside the presence of the THE COURT: Jurors left the court room. Counsel, do we have to listen to three MR. PETROCELLI: The direct is only about ten more minutes. THE COURT: You know, if there are future videos, I would strongly recommend I mean, who cares how many rolls he's got or what the sequence of the contact MR. PETROCELLI: In this case, Your Honor, their contention is the picture is MR. KELLY: There's only a couple minutes left. THE COURT: We're on page 29 and the direct goes to page 35. All right. I'm just saying. It's really difficult to find it very productive: THE BAILIFF: We're in recess. (Jurors resume their respective seats.) (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the THE COURT: Okay. How are we proceeding? MR. PETROCELLI: We have ten more minutes of direct on the video, and then the THE COURT: Okay. You may proceed. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you. (Videotaped Deposition of Harry Scull resumes MR. KELLY: Your Honor, before we start the cross-examination, I'd like to put THE COURT: All right. MR. KELLY: First of all, I'd like to do Deposition Exhibits 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6 If we can put them on one at a time quickly, Steve. (Mr. Foster displays series of photographs taken by freelance photographer MR. KELLY: That's Exhibit 1. That's Trial Exhibit 724, also. 724, also, a series of photos. Can you zoom in a little bit, Steve. Zoom in on that a little bit. For example, can you do a large shot of the whole contact sheet once more? And can you put the rest of 724 up there. And the large shot again. And 1931, please. And could you go back to the first shoe one more time. I ask that they all be moved into evidence. THE COURT: That's 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6? MR. KELLY: 1, 3, 4, 5, and 6, cumulatively, our Exhibit 724. And Deposition Exhibit No. 2 would be Exhibit 1931. THE COURT: Okay. MR. KELLY: Thank you. (The instruments herein collectively referred to as a series of photographs THE COURT: Proceed. MR. KELLY: Thank you. MR. LEONARD: May we, Your Honor? Mr. Baker -- Mr. Baker Junior will play the part of Mr. Scull, Senior. You set, Mr. Scull? MR. P. BAKER: Yep. MR. LEONARD: Starting at page 36, at line 20: "Q. Mr. Scull, where do you work? "A. Phototech Studios. "Q. What do you do at Phototech Studios? "A. I'm a black and white printer and photographer, photo assistant, a little "Q. And what is Phototech Studios? "A. Phototech Studios is a studio that -- an in-house studio where we MR. LEONARD: Okay. Line over to page 39, line 3. (Reading:) "Q. Okay. Now, by the way, on 9/26/93, did the Associated Press pick out any of "A. I don't recall. "Q. Did you take any photos after the game started? "A. Yes. "Q. Now, was it sunny and dry all day, September 26, 1993? "A. No. "Q. Was it dry before the game? "A. Yes. "Q. Had it been raining at all on Sunday, September 26, 1993?" (Continue reading as follows:) THE WITNESS: I don't recall. "Q. Was the field dry" -- "A. I don't recall" MR. LEONARD: Let me finish this. We're on line 19. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Was the field dry before the game? "A. I don't recall. "Q. Do you remember if there was any wind before the game? "A. I don't recall. MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me, Your Honor; I think Mr. Leonard inadvertently Could you go back to line 8, Mr. Leonard. MR. LEONARD: Line 8? MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. (Continued reading as follows:). "Q. Was it sunny and dry all day September 26, 1993? "A. No. "Q. Was it dry before the game? "A. Yes. "Q. Had it be raining at all on Sunday, September 26, 1993?" MR. LEONARD: Then Mr. O'Connor, who is Mr. Scull's attorney, comments: "At what point in time? "MR. BAKER: Before the game. "THE WITNESS: I don't "Q. Was the field dry before the game? "A. I don't recall. "Q. Do you remember if there was any wind before the game? "A. I don't recall. "Q. Do you remember if there was any wind during the game? "A. I don't recall that either. "Q. Do you remember whether or not the temperature was in excess of 50 degrees? "A. Yes, it was. "Q. And would that be throughout the period of the game it was in excess of 50 "A. I don't recall that. "Q. Now, do you have all of the photos that you took on September 26, 1993 here "A. No. "MR. BAKER: Mr. O'Connor, why not? "MR. O'CONNOR: Ask the witness. I have certain photographs that he took on that "THE WITNESS: I have all the negatives from that day." MR. LEONARD: Skipping over to page 44 line 14. 44, 14. (Reading:) "Q. Did you try to market that photograph to anybody other than the National "A. Yes. "Q. And who did you try to market it to? "A. Maybe I'd like to clarify that. Not market. Not market in that sense. "Q. Well, Exhibit number 1, did you try to sell that picture to anybody? "A. No. "Q. Well, what did -- what is your relationship to Gamma-Liaison? "A. There is no -- "MR. O'CONNOR: Object to the form. You can answer. "THE WITNESS: There is no relationship. "MR. BAKER: Is it your testimony that you received absolutely no remuneration "MR. O'CONNOR: Object to the form. That's not the question that you asked of "THE WITNESS: Would you rephrase it, please. "MR. BAKER: Is it your testimony that you received absolutely nothing of value "MR. O'CONNOR: Form. You can answer? "THE WITNESS: No. "MR. BAKER: Okay. What did you receive of value for that photograph appearing "THE WITNESS: Myself, $2500. "MR. BAKER: What else was received by anybody as a result of that photograph "MR. O'CONNOR: Form. You can answer. MR. BAKER: I don't think have you to read that, in view of the stipulation. MR. LEONARD: Okay. (Continued reading as follows:) "THE WITNESS: $2500. "MR. BAKER: To whom? Just you? "MR. O'CONNOR: You asked him anything -- anyone else. "MR. BAKER: Right. I didn't understand the answer. Thank you. "Who else received $2500 or what other entities received another $2500? THE WITNESS: Rob McCelroy. "Q. Who's that? "A. Rob McCelroy is a friend. "Q. Why did Rob McCelroy receive $2500? "A. Rob McCelroy acted as the agent with this image. "Q. Has Rob McCelroy ever acted as your agent previously? "A. No. "Q. How come on this particular occasion Rob McCelroy acted as your agent? "A. He -- I'm trying to think how to word it. He asked if he could. "Q. When did he ask you if he could act as your agent? "A. I received a phone call from him on March 28 of 1996. "Q. Now, did -- between September 26 and March 20 -- strike that. "Between "A. Would you rephrase that question again, please, "MR. BAKER: Would you read the question back." "THE WITNESS: Yes." (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Okay. And who did you tell? "A. The National Enquirer. "Q. When did you tell the National Enquirer? "A. Approximately June of 1995. "Q. Did you tell anyone or any other entity between September 26, 1993 and June "A. No. "Q. Why not? "A. I didn't --" (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. You can answer the question, Mr. Scull. THE WITNESS: "Would you rephrase it or repeat it, please." MR. BAKER: "The question was, why not?" THE WITNESS: "I didn't think it was of any value." MR. BAKER: "Now, did you tell anyone else before March of 1996, or any other MR. LEONARD: Line 7. (Reading:) "A. Not to my recollection." (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Did you talk to anybody?" A. "Yes. Rob McCelroy. I thought that was already stated." Q. "Okay. Now, in June of 1995, you thought the picture had some value when you A. "Yeah." MR. BAKER: "You can answer the question, Mr. Scull" A. "No." Q. "When you contacted the National Enquirer in June of 1995, you thought the A. "Yes." "Q. And you had contacted Mr. McCelroy by June of 1995, or did you directly "A. I directly communicated with the National Enquirer. "Q. And at that time did you provide them with the negative of the image that "A. Nope. "Q. Why not? "A. In my conversations" -- MR. KELLY: Objection. Hearsay. I'll withdraw the objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. MR. LEONARD: (Continued reading as follows:) A. "In my conversations with them, they were 'O.J.'d out' and didn't want to Q. "It's your testimony, in June of 1995, the National Enquirer told you they A. "Yeah." Q. "Who was that?" A. "Ray." Q. "Who said -- who said that to you from the National Enquirer?" "A. Ray Ferrall." "Q. Did you then attempt to communicate with any other of the tabloids to sell "A. No. "Q. Now, why in June of 1995 did you feel the image had value? "A. I just had a head-to-toe picture of O.J. Simpson, and I hadn't seen any to "I hadn't seen any photographs at that point. "Q. Now, it's your testimony that the image that has become Exhibit number 1 in "A. Correct. "Q. And it's your testimony that that was taken with your Canon camera, "A. Yes, sir. "Q. At what lens did you have on your Canon camera? "A. A 500 millimeter lens. "Q. That's the 4.5 500-millimeter lens? "A. Yes, sir. "Q. Who was the manufacturer of the optics? "A. Canon. "Q. Now at that point in time when you took the photograph, you were standing "A. In the end zone. "Q. Where in the end zone? "A. Along the goal line. "Q. And on which -- you said you were on the Miami side of the field; is that "A. It appears to be, yes. "Q. And the Miami side of the field is -- we have got a picture of Rich Stadium "A. Well, I'm not --" MR. LEONARD: I'm going to skip over now to page 54, line 3: (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. And Mr. Simpson was where? "A. I believe by the -- around the -- near the Ls in Bills. "Q. And as -- that would be -- "A. It would be in the middle of the two Ls. "Q. All right. And you were standing? "A. Yes. "Q. And the viewfinder was at your eye level, correct? "A. Slightly lower. "Q. Why was the viewfinder slightly lower than your eye? "A. Because the -- the monopad won't reach a six foot one -- won't reach when "Q. So you're six foot one, correct? "A. Yes. "Q. And you have a monopod that you put the camera on and shoot because of the "A. Correct. "Q. All right. And approximately how tall is the monopod fully extended? "A. I would say five foot. "Q. You still have that monopod? "A. Yes. "Q. Now, what was the speed of the film you were using? "A. 400. "Q. Fuji? "A. Yes. "Q. And that's the same film you used all day -- "A. No. "Q. -- correct? "What film -- what other speed film did you use that day? "A. I used some 1600. 1600. "Q. Why did you change from 400 to 1600? "A. Because approximately 1:05 it started to rain and the light changed. The "Q. Now, it's your testimony it hadn't been raining until 1:05; is that "A. Approximately, yes." MR. LEONARD: Skipping over to page 57, line 5: (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. You do recall it was sunny at the time you took it? "A. Yes. "Q. And approximately what time do you think you took that photograph? "A. Approximately 12:15. "Q. Okay. And you don't recall any wind that day? "A. No. "Q. And you don't recall what the temperature was, except it was in excess of "A. To the best of my recollection, no. "Q. Do you recall if it was in excess of 60 degrees at the time you took the "A. To the best of my recollection, no. "Q. Somewhere between 50 and 60? "A. To the best of my recollection, no. "Q. What do you mean, no? Do you know what it was or do you not know what it "A. To the best of my recollection, I don't remember. "Q. You don't have any recollection of what the temperature was on September "A. I can tell you it didn't snow. "Q. But you don't know, for example, were you wearing a coat that day when you "A. Yes. "Q. What kind of coat were you wearing? "A. I don't recall. "Q. Do you usually wear a vest when you take pictures? "A. Yes. "Q. Were you wearing a vest? "A. It's possible. "Q. You don't have a recollection? "A. No. "Q. Do you recall then that you were, or do you have no recollection whether "A. I was wearing a --" (Continued reading as follows:) Q. "You can answer the question Mr. Scull." (Continued reading as follows:) "Do you have a recollection, as you sit here today, that you were wearing a "A. Yes, I do. "Q. -- 6, 1993?" (Continued reading as follows:) "Was it a coat that was a down coat with quilting in it?" (Continued reading as follows:) "No. "Was it a down coat?" "To the best of my recollection, I don't remember." Q. "Now, when did you first meet with Mr. Kelly?" (Continued reading as follows:) "You can answer the question, Mr. Scull." MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Leonard, since you're deleting the objections, I think you MR. LEONARD: Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you. MR. LEONARD: If you go over -- a little complicated -- over to line 6. MR. P. BAKER: Yeah. (Continued reading as follows:) "Last night." "Q. What time did you meet with him? "A. Approximately 5:15. "Q. Where did you meet with him? "A. Mr. O'Connor's office. "Q. How long were you there -- "A. Approximately -- "Q. -- with Mr. Kelly? "A. Approximately 45 minutes. "Q. What did you talk about?" (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. What did you talk about between 5:15 and approximately 6 o'clock last night "A. The -- the photographs I had taken. "Q. Okay. Tell me everything that you recall Mr. Kelly saying to you. "A. He asked" -- MR. KELLY: Objection. Hearsay. I'll withdraw the objection, Your Honor. Let it out. Okay. (Continued reading as follows:) "A. He asked to see the copies of the photographs that we had made and asked MR. LEONARD: Skip over to page 63, line 22. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Now, on your camera, when you hold down the trigger, does it reel off (Continued reading as follows:) A. "It can, yes. "Q. So you took one image of Mr. Simpson, you say, on September 26, 1993, while "A. Yes. MR. LEONARD: Skip over to page 68, line 12. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Well, did anybody take your negatives, that you're aware of, and make "A. Yes. "Q. Who? "A. Rob McCelroy. "Q. When did he do that?" (Continued reading as follows:) "A. Approximately the end of March. Approximately the end of March. "Q. Of '96? "A. Correct. "Q. Now, did Rob McCelroy -- strike that. "Did anyone else make up contact "A. Yes. "Q. Who else? "A. Well, the contacts in question here were made up by Paul Maze. "Q. Now, who -- strike that. "Did Rob McCelroy then attempt to, to your "A. Yes. "Q. Who did he attempt to sell them to?" (Continued reading as follows:) A. "I believe Newsweek, Time magazine, and some of the TV tabloid shows." Q. "Now, did Rob McCelroy tell you why Newsweek or Time did not purchase your (Continued reading as follows:) A. "It wasn't newsworthy at the time. Q. "What were you asking or what were you requesting Rob McCelroy to ask for (Continued reading as follows:) A. "I made no negotiations, and I asked for no asking price." Q. "You had no input into the asking price for this photo that you were A. "Correct." (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Tell me, what's Rob McCelroy's background? "A. Rob McCelroy is a free-lance photographer. "Q. Here in Buffalo? "A. Yes. "Q. And where does Rob McCelroy work, other than being a free-lance "A. That is it. "Q. Does he have his own lab? "A. He has a black and white darkroom. "Q. Do you know what labs Rob McCelroy regularly uses?" (Continued reading as follows:) A. "Not all of them. I do know he uses Nova Photo, N-O-V-A." Q. "Other than Phototech, what lab do you generally use?" (Continued reading as follows:) A. "General labs in general?" "Q. Yes. "A. Royal Photo, Nova Photo, and Insta Photolab. "Q. Now, have you ever digitally altered a photograph in your life, sir? "A. Absolutely not. "Q. Have you ever altered a photograph in any manner, whether it be digital or "A. No." (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Are you aware if Mr. McCelroy has ever altered a photograph? "A. No. "Q. You don't know one way or the other? "A. No, sir. "Q. Now, the negative that -- that's -- is that referred to as a C-41 negative? "A. Correct. "Q. Now, that negative, after you processed it on September 26, 1993, that "A. March of 1996, March 28th. "Q. And where did it go then? "A. I hand delivered it to Rob McCelroy. "Q. Now before March 28th, 1996, had you made any enlargements or any -- pardon "A. Okay. "Q. Is that 2? Can you flip that over? I'm sorry. "A. Yes it is. "Q. All right. Now, before March 28, 1996, had you made any shots such as "A. No. "Q. All right. Now, when you gave the negative to Mr. McCelroy did -- to your "A. Yes. "Q. Okay. And when did he do that?" (Continued reading as follows:) A. "I have no idea." Q. "When did you learn that he had made either blow-ups or photographs of the A. "In April." Q. "What did he tell you?" A. "He -- he informed me that the National Enquirer had used the photograph." Q. "Now, when you gave the negative to Mr. McCelroy, did you just say, see if A. "No." Q. "Tell me what the conversation was between you and Mr. McCelroy when you A. "He said he might have a story in the working with the negative. He wasn't "Q. Now, Did you ever see any paperwork relative to the sale of the negative "A. No. "Q. How were you paid the $2500? "A. By a check from Mr. McElroy. "Q. Was it Mr. McCelroy's check? "A. Yes. "Q. Did he indicate to you that he had been paid $5,000? "A. Yes. "Q. Did you ever see any remuneration -- form of remuneration, that is, a money "A. No. "Q. Did he ever indicate to you that he got $17,000 for that photograph? "A. No. "Q. Now, how long did Mr. McCelroy have -- Well, strike that. "Did you give Mr. "A. No. "Q. What did you give to Mr. McCelroy? "A. I gave to Mr. McCelroy the -- may I see those? "Q. Sure. "A. I gave Mr. McCelroy the strip of negatives that appear in Exhibit 5. "Q. Which one? "A. The whole strip of negatives. "Q. Okay. The one that's on the left side of the contact sheet, as you have it? "A. No, the entire --" (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. I'm sorry, sir. You gave him all of them? "A. The entire roll of film. "Q. Okay. In an acetate sleeve? "A. Yes, sir. "Q. And when did you receive back the negatives from Mr. McCelroy? "A. In -- I believe the first week in May. "Q. Did you keep any -- strike that. "Did you make a contact sheet of the "A. No. "Q. And since May, then it's been in your possession, correct; that is, the "A. My or my attorneys. "Q. Okay. And when did you give it to your attorney?" (Continued reading as follows:) A. "Approximately two weeks ago. "Q. So it remained in your custody until two weeks previous, correct? "A. Yes. "Q. Now, did you relate to anyone other than Mr. McCelroy that you had these "A. No. "Q. Did you talk to your mother, for example? Did you tell her about the (Continued reading as follows:) A. "Can you rephrase the question." "Q. Did you tell your mother about the photographs? "A. When? "Q. At any time before it appeared in the National Enquirer. "A. No. "Q. Did you tell any of your photographic friends, other than Mr. McCelroy, "A. No." MR. LEONARD: Over to 79, line 7. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Now, in terms of your photograph, that's the image that's become Exhibit 1, "A. Correct. I didn't know if you wanted to -- "Q. Yeah, fine. Why don't you put that up. Do you know how wide the football "A. No. 40 some -- 40 some yards, I believe. "Q. So you were approximately 20 yards away from Mr. Simpson at the time the (Continued reading as follows:) A. "I believe a little further." Q. "Okay. 25 yards?" A. "I don't know." "MR. O'CONNOR: If you can -- If you can approximate, approximate" -- MR. LEONARD: Excuse me. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Yeah. If you have an estimate, just give it to me. If it was about 20, 25 "A. Approximately 30 yards. "Q. If the football field's 40 yards wide -- and I'll take your word for it "A. No. He was between the two Ls. "Q. Okay. Which would be more centered than off to the right-hand side of that "A. Correct. "Q. All right. And so if that field is 25 -- strike that. If the field is 40 "A. Yes. "Q. All right. And so it would be within 20, 25 yards of where you were taking "A. Yes. "Q. And you were outside the -- okay. "A. Yellow line that runs -- "Q. That runs perpendicular to the sidelines, correct? "A. Correct. "Q. All right. And at the goal line, true? "A. Yes. "Q. Okay. Now, the field's made of Astroturf, is it not, at Rich Stadium? "A. Yes. "Q. And when you walk around at the stadium, you pick up the debris that comes (Continued reading as follows:) "You can." Q. "And I want you to look at Exhibit 1 and tell me if you see any debris on (Continued reading as follows:) A. "No." Q. "Do you know if Mr. McCelroy is familiar with darkroom techniques including, A. "I don't know." MR. LEONARD: Good news is, we've got a lot to skip. So ... Okay. Page 93, line 14. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Now, in terms of your recollection, was it sunny up until approximately, "A. Absolutely. Q. "Okay. And when at 1:05 then it became overcast -- excuse me. "Okay. And "A. Yeah. A front moved in. "Q. Now, how do you remember precisely 1:05, sir? "A. Well, because I remember that the national anthem had ended, they got ready "Q. And at that time, did you change cameras, or did you change the lens on "A. I had to change film. "Q. Okay. So you changed films and continued to use the 500, 4.5 lens? "A. Yes. "Q. And that's manufactured by Canon, correct? "A. Correct. "Q. All right. Now, in terms of from the time you got there at 9:30, it was "A. To the best of my recollection, yes. "Q. Okay. Did you ever ask Mr. McCelroy if he had done anything to the negative "A. Yes. "Q. And he told you what?" (Continued reading as follows:) A. "No." Q. "And he had it in his possession approximately six weeks?" A. "I don't recall." "Q. All right. Now, in terms of Mr. McCelroy having it in his possession, did "A. Yes. "Q. Okay. And did he return then all of the negatives, as far as you know, that "A. Yes. "Q. All right. And did he tell you what he had done with them, if anything, (Continued reading as follows:) A. "Yes." Q. "Why don't you answer that and we'll --" A. Yes. I gave the negatives to Mr. McCelroy. He -- Mr. McCelroy -- in turn, MR. LEONARD: Down to line 19. (Continued reading as follows:) "From that point on, I picked them up. When Mr. McCelroy arrived home the next Q. "So it was your understanding that the negatives left the country and went A. "Correct." Q. "And how long were they in London?" A. "I believe two days." MR. LEONARD: Down to line 14 on page 97. (Continued reading as follows:) "MR. BAKER: Mr. Scull, did you ever take a similar photo of Mr. Simpson as is (Continued reading as follows:) "THE WITNESS: Not to the best of my recollection." Q. "So that would be the only photo that you're aware of that shows Mr. Simpson A. "Yes." THE COURT: Mr. Leonard. MR. LEONARD: Yes? THE COURT: (Motions for counsel to come to sidebar.) (Proceedings were held at the bench, without the reporter.) (The following MR. LEONARD: Pick it up. (Laughter.) MR. LEONARD: Okay. Over to page 100, line 3. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. All right. Now, to your knowledge, were the negatives that you have "A. No. "Q. And you know of no reason why those negatives would have been duplicated "A. Correct. "Q. And do you know why the negatives went to London? "A. Yes. "Q. Tell me. "A. Gamma-Liaison scanned it in the computer. "Q. And do you know why Gamma-Liaison scanned the negatives into a computer? (Continued reading as follows:) A. "For possible sales." Q. "Well, explain to me who told you that Gamma-Liaison scanned this photograph A. "Rob McCelroy." Q. "And when you discussed this with Mr. McCelroy, did he tell you why they A. "No." Q. "Now, did he tell you why Gamma-Liaison was involved in this transaction of A. "To -- my recollection indicates that Gamma-Liaison was not involved "Q. Well, did the negatives go to Gamma-Liaison before the photograph was "A. No. "Q. The photograph indicates in the National Enquirer that it is copyrighted by "A. Correct. "Q. And is it your testimony that the photograph was copyrighted by "A. I don't -- I can't answer that. I don't know. "Q. You just testified, unless I misunderstood, that the photograph went to "A. Correct. "Q. How do you know that? "A. I was told by Rob McCelroy. "Q. Well, what did Rob McCelroy tell you relative to Gamma-Liaison and why, "A. It was their headquarters. "Q. Well, how did he tell you Gamma-Liaison was involved at all in this "A. Gamma-Liaison Credit was used to, A, protect my identity and to let other "Q. Well, why did you want to protect your identity, Mr. Scull? "A. Because I just don't want my life interrupted. I wasn't ready to be "Q. Well, you wanted to sell this photograph, did you not? "A. Correct. "Q. And you wanted the photograph to be published, did you not? "A. Correct. "Q. And you knew the significance of the photograph when you wanted it to be "A. No. "Q. You knew that you had a full-length photo that you say was taken on "A. True. "Q. And you knew that if it was published, that your name would come out, did "A. No. "Q. When you first when you when did you first contact Mr. Kelly relative to (Continued reading as follows:) A. "I personally did not contact Mr. Kelly. My attorney did." Q. "And when was it that Mr. Kelly and your attorney, if you know, A. "I don't recall an exact date." "Q. Did you direct your attorney to -- strike that. "Did you want to "A. Yes. "Q. Why? "A. I wanted to -- I wanted to -- if this indeed was true, I wanted to be able "Q. And when did you decide you wanted to communicate with Mr. Kelly? "A. I was probably -- " (Continued reading as follows:) "It was seven to ten days after the photo appeared on the newsstand. "Q. Now, did you ever communicate with Mr. Kelly before last night? "A. Yes. "Q. Okay. Now, tell me when the first time was you communicated with Mr. Kelly. "A. To the best of my recollection, shortly after my attorney had contacted "Q. Was that a telephone communication you had with Mr. Kelly? "A. Yes. "Q. So you changed your mind? You didn't care if you were besieged by (Continued reading as follows:) "Would you repeat it, please." MR. LEONARD: Question is reread. (Continued reading as follows:) "We talked about at that time, I wasn't voluntarily willing to go forward with Q. "Now, as I understand it, in May -- strike that -- in April of 1996, you did A. "Correct." Q. "And by April 30th, it was -- you had decided to reveal your identity, A. "I don't recall when my name was released." (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. When did you" first give -- "When did you" -- "When did you give your first "A. I haven't held a formal press conference. I've been -- I've given a few "Q. Well, I saw you on the news this morning; when was that filmed? "A. Which station? "Q. Well, when were you first filmed by any channel, Mr. Scull? (Continued reading as follows:) A. "Yesterday morning." Q. "And who were you filmed by?" A. "Channel 7." Q. "And have you been filmed by anyone else?" A. "Channel 2." Q. "And I take it that now you are happy and proud to be identified with this A. "I have no choice at this point. My name is out in the public." Q. "Let me see if you can answer my question. You're happy and proud to be A. "Yes." Q. "All right. Now, in terms of -- well, strike that. "Do you have plans to do A. "At this moment, now, no." "Q. Were you paid to be on any television channel? "A. No. "Q. Have you agreed to be paid to publicize your taking of this photograph? "A. No." MR. LEONARD: Over to page 109, line 9. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Okay. Never decided to contact the district attorney's office of Los "A. No." MR. LEONARD: No further questions. THE COURT: Okay. MR. PETROCELLI: Couple minutes, Your Honor, and then we'll finish up. THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. (Recess.) MR. KELLY: Page 66. MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, can we approach? THE COURT: Sure. MR. LEONARD: Yes. (The following proceedings were held at the bench, with the reporter:) MR. LEONARD: It appears that Mr. Kelly is going to go back and try to read I don't think that's appropriate. They had an opportunity to get into redirect. MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me. First of all, I don't know of any such rule of law. I designated -- they directly informed me, Your Honor, that they were doing the THE COURT: Okay. I'll allow it. MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you. MR. LEONARD: Can I have that reference again? MR. KELLY: Page 66, line 9. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. (Mr. Kelly is reading the questions of Mr. Baker, and Mr. P. Baker is reading MR. KELLY: "And what was the occasion that you looked at negatives one week "A. I went through them randomly to print up black and white panalor pictures. "Q. For what? (Continued reading as follows:) A. "I went through the images or the negatives from the entire day to print Question from Mr. Petrocelli: "What's 'panalor' mean?" A. "It's -- Panalor is the photographic paper in which you can print a black "Q. Why did you want to do this? "A. To send to Pro Football Weekly. "Q. And how many of the photos -- strike that. "How many of the images did you "A. Approximately 15 to 20. "Q. And none of those included Mr. Simpson, correct?" (Continued reading as follows:) A. "Yes, they did include Mr. Simpson. "Q. Now, which of the images did you send to Pro Football Weekly that included "A. I don't recall all of them. I recall some of them but not all of them." MR. KELLY: Okay. Skipping over to page 84. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. MR. KELLY: Line number 7. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. (Continued reading as follows:) Q. "All right. Now, which images did you sell to Football Weekly of the 9/26/93 (Continued reading as follows:) A. "I don't recall all of them. I just recall a few of them that I made up. "Q. Why is it that you sent an image of Mr. Simpson to Pro Football Weekly a "A. Mr. Simpson's a former NFL player, part of the national media, and his "Q. Which image did you send to pro football weekly of Mr. Simpson, if you can "A. It would have been Exhibit number 1. Frame number 1 on Exhibit number 5. "Q. The same one that has appeared in -- which you say is unaltered, that A. "Yes." MR. KELLY: Okay. Skipping over to page 86, line 19. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Did you ever contact anybody from Pro Football Weekly to see if they "A. Yes. "Q. When did you contact them? "A. Last week. "Q. And why? "A. I just wanted to find out if they had a copy of this from that day." (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Now, who did you contact at Pro Football Weekly? "A. Bob Peters. "Q. Did Mr. Peters tell you they had retained a photo that is Exhibit No. 1? "A. Yes, yes. "Q. They still have it? "A. Correct. "Q. Did you ask for it back? "A. No. "Q. Why were you interested to know if they still had it?" (Continued reading as follows:) A. "To see if they still indeed had that photograph and to see if it was used." Q. "Did you want to see -- to see if you could compare the photograph that is (Continued reading as follows:) A. "No." Q. "Did you make any inquiry as to if you could get that photograph back?" A. "Yes." Q. "Why did you want it back?" MR. KELLY: Another question: "Mr. Scull, I don't want you to talk about" -- MR. LEONARD: Over to 89, 2? MR. KELLY: 89, 2. "Now, why did you want the picture back from Pro Football A. "I didn't ask for the picture back." Q. "Did you ask -- what did you ask for back from Pro Football Weekly?" A. "Absolutely nothing." "Q. Why were you interested if Pro Football Weekly retained that photograph, "A. Because I didn't want it published without my permission. "Q. Did you make any arrangements with Mr. Bob Peters of Pro Football Weekly to "A. No." MR. KELLY: Okay. Page 108. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. MR. KELLY: "Let me see if you can answer my question." Actually, strike that. We covered this -- MR. LEONARD: Yeah. MR. KELLY: -- Already. I'm sorry. Page 110. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. MR. KELLY: Line 17. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. (Continued reading as follows:) Q. "Who was the gentleman you spoke to at Pro Football Weekly?" A. "Bob --" (Continued reading as follows:) A. "Bob Peters." "Q. Tell me everything that you recall about that conversation. "A. I asked Mr. Peters -- I had left a voice mail for him to search his file on "Q. Okay. And he responded? "A. He responded." MR. LEONARD: Objection, Your Honor. Hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. KELLY: "Did you have any other" -- I'm sorry. Line 10. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Okay. Did you have any other conversation with him about that photograph "A. I explained" -- MR. LEONARD: Objection. Hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. KELLY: Line 16. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. And did Mr. Peters indicate to you that he would keep the photo in MR. LEONARD: Same objection. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. KELLY: Line 19. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Did you ask for the photo back?" (Continued reading as follows:) A. "No." MR. KELLY: Page 132. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. (Continued reading as follows:) EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI: "Q. All of the negatives that you have produced here today are the ones that "A. Yes. "Q. These -- do these negatives represent all the pictures that you've ever "A. No. "Q. You have taken many, many more pictures? "A. I've taken more, yes. "Q. Did you follow the trial very closely? "A. No. "Q. The criminal trial, I mean? "A. No. "Q. Okay. The -- have you heard O.J. Simpson say on television" -- MR. LEONARD: Object, and ask you to approach. THE COURT: Okay. (The following proceedings were held at the bench, with the reporter.) MR. PETROCELLI: 132 starting at line 22. (Pause for the Court to read transcript.) THE COURT: What's the objection? MR. LEONARD: Your Honor, I think it's hearsay and it's not admissible. This is THE COURT: What problems -- MR. PETROCELLI: Either admissions go directly to that claim that this picture THE COURT: Overruled. MR. LEONARD: Go ahead; knock yourself out. (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the MR. KELLY: Bottom of 132, Phil. MR. P. BAKER: Okay. MR. KELLY: You ready? MR. P. BAKER: Yes. (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Okay. The -- have you heard O.J. Simpson say on television that your "A. Can you rephrase it? "Q. Have you heard Mr. Simpson make the claim that the picture you took that "A. Correct. Yes. "Q. Have you heard him say that on TV or heard reports of him saying that? "A. Correct." (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Is that true? "A. Yes. "Q. That you have heard that, correct? "A. Yes. "Q. Now, the photograph is not doctored, correct? "A. Correct." (Continued reading as follows:) "Q. Have you ever doctored a photograph? "A. No. MR. PETROCELLI: We'll skip the last part, Mr. Baker. MR. BAKER: Please. MR. KELLY: Or you read it yourself. That's all. THE COURT: Are we finished for the day? MR. PETROCELLI: We're finished. THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. We'll see you tomorrow. Don't talk about the case; don't form or express any opinions; don't listen to Okay. See you tomorrow, 8:30. (At 4:05 p.m., an adjournment was taken until Thursday, November 7, 1996, at |