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LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, MARCH 22, 1995 9:33 A.M.
DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE APPEARANCES: (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.) (JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (PAGES 19788 THROUGH 19798, VOLUME 112A, TRANSCRIBED AND SEALED UNDER SEPARATE COVER.) (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD MORNING AGAIN, COUNSEL. BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. THE DEFENDANT IS AGAIN PRESENT BEFORE THE COURT WITH HIS COUNSEL, MR. SHAPIRO, MR. COCHRAN, MR. DOUGLAS, MR. BAILEY. THE PEOPLE ARE REPRESENTED BY MISS CLARK AND MR. DARDEN THE JURY IS NOT PRESENT. COUNSEL, IS THERE ANYTHING WE NEED TO TAKE UP BEFORE WE INVITE THE JURORS TO REJOIN US? MR. SHAPIRO: YES. YOUR HONOR, VERY BRIEFLY. WE ARE QUITE CONCERNED ABOUT SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ARE BEING SAID AT SIDE BAR THAT ARE GRATUITOUS IN NATURE, AND YESTERDAY THERE WERE STATEMENTS THAT WERE MADE THAT WERE QUITE DEROGATORY OF JASON SIMPSON AND IMPLY THAT HE WAS INVOLVED IN PLANTING POTENTIAL EVIDENCE. SINCE THOSE SIDE BAR CONFERENCES ARE PUBLIC RECORD AND RELEASED, IT NOT ONLY CAUSES A GREAT DEAL OF ANXIETY TO MR. SIMPSON, IT CAUSES US GREAT CONCERN, BECAUSE IN THE UNFORTUNATE EVENT THAT THIS JURY CANNOT REACH A VERDICT, IT IS GOING TO BE MUCH MORE DIFFICULT IN THE FUTURE TO TRY TO PICK A FAIR AND IMPARTIAL JUROR IF -- JURY IF THEY ARE BEING POISONED BY THESE TYPES OF GRATUITOUS COMMENTS. AND I WANTED THE RECORD TO REFLECT THAT WE STRENUOUSLY OBJECT TO THOSE. ONE MOMENT, PLEASE. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.) MR. SHAPIRO: AND IN THIS CASE THE STATEMENT WAS DIRECTLY IN CONTRADICTION TO THE FACTS IN THIS CASE THAT HAVE BEEN FILED BY A JUDGE UNDER SEAL. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. ANY OTHER COMMENT? ALL RIGHT. LET'S HAVE THE JURORS. MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, COULD I HAVE JUST ONE MOMENT? I HAVE TO LOOK AT AN SDT FILED BY THE DEFENSE. LET ME INDICATE, I HAVE INDICATED TO MR. SHAPIRO ALREADY THAT WE HAVE A VERY SHORT SEGMENT OF VIDEOTAPE THAT I WANTED TO BE ABLE TO SHOW TO THIS WITNESS ON THE WITNESS STAND, AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT IS THE DATE THAT I THINK -- THE COURT: HOW -- MS. CLARK: PARDON? SOMETHING I CAN LAY A FOUNDATION FOR IT. PERHAPS WHAT I SHOULD DO RIGHT NOW IS SHOW IT TO COUNSEL SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO TAKE A BREAK IN THE PROCEEDINGS AT THE TIME. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHAT IS THIS VIDEO OF? MS. CLARK: IT IS OF ROCKINGHAM, YOUR HONOR. (AT 9:36 A.M. A VIDEOTAPE WAS PLAYED.) (AT 9:39 A.M. THE PLAYING OF THE VIDEOTAPE CONCLUDES.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, WE HAVE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SEE THE VIDEO. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: THERE IS JUST A LITTLE BIT MORE, YOUR HONOR. (THE PLAYING OF THE VIDEOTAPE CONTINUES.) (AT 9:40 A.M. THE PLAYING OF THE VIDEOTAPE CONCLUDES.) MS. CLARK: THAT IS IT. THE COURT: THAT IS IT? MR. SHAPIRO, ANY COMMENT? MR. SHAPIRO: YES, YOUR HONOR. WE WOULD LIKE AN OFFER OF PROOF AS TO THE RELEVANCE. THE COURT: MISS CLARK. MS. CLARK: IT WILL BE PRESENTED WITH KATO, BUT FIRST, BEFORE I DO THAT, WHAT I NEED TO INQUIRE OF THE DEFENSE IS FROM WHAT STATION THIS TAPE CAME AND THE COPY OF THE SDT THAT PRODUCED IT. THE COURT: DO WE KNOW? MR. COCHRAN: I DON'T THINK WE KNOW AT THIS POINT, YOUR HONOR. WE WOULD HAVE TO TRY TO LOOK IT UP AND SEE. WHEN DOES SHE WANT TO USE IT? MS. CLARK: TODAY. MR. COCHRAN: WE WOULD HAVE TO LOOK IT UP AND SEE (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.) MS. CLARK: HOW COULD THEY NOT KNOW? THE COURT: COUNSEL, OUT OF CURIOSITY, WHAT IS THE RELEVANCE OF THAT CLIP? MS. CLARK: WELL, THE PERSON THAT IS WITH MR. KAELIN IS RON SHIPP. THE COURT: CORRECT. MS. CLARK: RON SHIPP HAS TESTIFIED TO HIS PRESENCE AT THE HOUSE ON JUNE THE 13TH, IF THE COURT WILL RECALL. WE BELIEVE THIS TAPE WAS MADE ON JUNE THE 13TH. IT WILL DEMONSTRATE -- IT WILL CORROBORATE RON SHIPP'S TESTIMONY AND THEN OF COURSE THE CLIP OF THE DOG. MR. SHAPIRO: WE WILL STIPULATE MR. SHIPP WAS THERE ON THE 13TH. IT IS NOT AN ISSUE IN THIS CASE. MS. CLARK: THE PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO PROVE THEIR CASE IN THEIR OWN WAY. THE COURT: MISS CLARK, WHAT IS THE RELEVANCE OF THE AKITA DOG? MS. CLARK: WELL, IF ONE RECALLS THE TESTIMONY OF ROSA LOPEZ, A DOG THAT WAS BARKING FURIOUSLY THE NIGHT BEFORE IS BEING -- IS BEING VERY DOCILE AND PETTED BY COMPLETE AND TOTAL STRANGERS. MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I'VE HAD DOGS ALL MY LIFE AND SOMETIMES THEY BARK AND SOMETIMES THEY DON'T BARK, AND BECAUSE THEY WERE AROUND A FRIENDLY PEACE OFFICER DOESN'T -- MS. CLARK: ALL OF A SUDDEN IT IS A FRIENDLY POLICE OFFICER. I LOVE IT. CAN I GET THIS ADMITTED? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THE PROBLEM IS IS A FOUNDATIONAL OBJECTION. THE COURT: WE HAVE ONE COUNSEL PER SIDE, MR. COCHRAN. MR. COCHRAN: SHE ASKED A QUESTION WITH REGARD TO THE FOUNDATION ON THE SDT, YOUR HONOR. MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION. THE COURT: I NOTED IT. ALL RIGHT. I ASSUMED THE ANSWER IS, SINCE THEY WEREN'T PREPARED AS TO THIS PARTICULAR SNIPPET OF VIDEOTAPE, THEY CAN'T TELL YOU WHO THE CINEMATOGRAPHER WAS OR THE VIDEOGRAPHER, WHATEVER IT IS WE CALL THEM THESE DAYS. HOWEVER, IF IT IS IN SEQUENCE, I DID SEE DETECTIVE LANGE CARRYING HIS CLIPBOARD AND WHAT APPEARED TO BE THE PAIR OF REEBOK SHOES. MS. CLARK: THAT HE HAS ALREADY TESTIFIED TO. THE COURT: THE PROBLEM IS WE DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS IN SEQUENCE BECAUSE THERE APPEARS TO ME TO BE A CUT IN BETWEEN. MS. CLARK: RIGHT, THERE DOES. PERHAPS COULD I DO IT THIS WAY, YOUR HONOR: WE KNOW THAT THERE WILL BE A FOUNDATION FORTHCOMING BECAUSE SOMEONE OBVIOUSLY VIDEOTAPED IT AND THE DEFENSE GOT THE TAPE FROM THAT PERSON, AND AS SOON AS THE DEFENSE TELLS ME WHO IT IS, I CAN CALL THE PERSON AND LAY THE FOUNDATION. THE COURT: LET ME CUT TO THE CHASE. MR. SHAPIRO. IS THERE ANY OBJECTION TO THIS? MR. SHAPIRO: YES, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ON FOUNDATIONAL GROUNDS? MR. SHAPIRO: YES. MS. CLARK: IF I CAN ASK THE COURT TO ALLOW ME TO HAVE THE WITNESS IDENTIFY HIM AND RON SHIPP AND THE DOG SUBJECT TO A MOTION TO STRIKE, I WILL NOT ELICIT TESTIMONY FROM THIS WITNESS AS TO WHEN THE VIDEOTAPE -- WHEN THOSE EVENTS TRANSPIRED. AND I WILL CALL THE PERSON WHO SHOT THE TAPE TO TESTIFY TO THAT. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. ANY RESPONSE TO THAT PROPOSAL, MR. SHAPIRO? MR. SHAPIRO: YES. THERE WILL BE AN OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR; SAME GROUNDS. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. OKAY. I WILL ALLOW IT SUBJECT TO A MOTION TO STRIKE. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE. (BRIEF PAUSE.) (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. PLEASE BE SEATED. ALL RIGHT. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE NOW BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL. GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. THE JURY: GOOD MORNING. THE COURT: MR. KAELIN, WOULD YOU RESUME THE WITNESS STAND, PLEASE. BRIAN KATO KAELIN, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE EVENING ADJOURNMENT, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS: THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHY DON'T YOU PULL THE MICROPHONE CLOSE TO YOU, PLEASE. ALL RIGHT. GOOD MORNING, MR. KAELIN. THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING. THE COURT: YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH, SIR. THE WITNESS: YES. THE COURT: MISS CLARK, YOU MAY RESUME WITH YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. GOOD MORNING. DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MS. CLARK: Q: MR. KAELIN, YESTERDAY YOU WERE EXPLAINING TO US THE LAYOUT OF THE HOUSE, IF YOU RECALL. A: YES. Q: I WOULD LIKE TO GO BACK TO THAT FOR JUST A BRIEF MOMENT. THE COURT: MRS. ROBERTSON, IS THE WATER FRESH? THE WATER IS FRESH. Q: BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU THE DIAGRAM THAT HAS BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 66 -- THE COURT: WOULD YOU LIKE MR. KAELIN TO STEP DOWN? MS. CLARK: YES. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. LET ME ASK YOU A COUPLE QUESTIONS. ARE THERE ANY DOORS THAT LEAD OUT ONTO THE SOUTH PATHWAY FROM THE MAIN HOUSE OR GARAGE AREA? A: SOUTH PATHWAY? THIS PATHWAY, (INDICATING)? Q: YES. A: YES. Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHICH ONES THEY ARE? A: THERE IS A LAUNDRY ROOM. Q: UH-HUH. A: I GUESS THAT WOULD BE RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS INDICATING THE YELLOW ARROW THAT HAS BEEN PLACED BY -- WHERE THERE IS A "V" INDENTATION IN THE MAIN HOUSE. OKAY. THE WITNESS: AND THERE IS ONE IN THE GARAGE. Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. DO YOU KNOW WHERE ON THAT SOUTH WALL OF THE GARAGE IT IS? A: IT IS -- THE OPENING HERE, SO IT WOULD BE AROUND HERE, I THINK, (INDICATING). Q: OKAY. IT WOULD BE FARTHER TO THE LEFT OF THE YELLOW ARROW THAT HAS BEEN PLACED ON THE BOARD RIGHT NOW? A: YES, IF THAT IS WHERE THE CAR WOULD HAVE BEEN RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING). Q: UH-HUH. YOU THINK IT WOULD BE FARTHER TO THE LEFT THAN THAT? CAN YOU SHOW US APPROXIMATELY WHERE YOU THINK IT WOULD BE? A: I THINK IT WOULD BE RIGHT ABOUT HERE, (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: OKAY. FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS POINTED TO THE AREA WHERE THERE IS AN INDENTATION IN THE GARAGE TO THE LEFT OF THE YELLOW ARROW PLACED BY THE GARAGE. THE COURT: THREE OR FOUR INCHES TO THE LEFT. MR. SHAPIRO: MAY I SUGGEST WE MARK THAT? MS. CLARK: I -- THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU HAVE MY STICKERS? MS. CLARK: I THINK THAT THEY WENT BACK TO YOU. THE COURT: I HAVE DOTS NOW. MR. SHAPIRO: YES, YOUR HONOR, THEY ARE RIGHT HERE. WE ARE GETTING THEM. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: PERHAPS WE SHOULD LABEL THOSE STICKERS WITH EITHER THE WITNESS' INITIALS AND/OR 1, 2 OR 3. MS. CLARK: WHY DON'T UP PUT IT ON THERE, MR. KAELIN. THE WITNESS: JUST RIGHT THERE, (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) MS. CLARK: THANK YOU. FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS -- I'M GOING TO PUT A -- I'M GOING TO PUT THE WITNESS' INITIALS ON THAT ARROW, "B.K." ALL RIGHT. YOU CAN RESUME YOUR SEAT? THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: WITH RESPECT TO THE DOOR THAT YOU INDICATED WAS THE LAUNDRY ROOM, OKAY, THAT DOOR THAT LEADS OUT ONTO THE SOUTH PATHWAY FROM THE LAUNDRY ROOM OF THE MAIN HOUSE, SIR, THAT IS INDICATED BY THE ARROW THAT IS UNMARKED ON THE "B" PART OF THE MAIN HOUSE HERE, ALL RIGHT, WITH RESPECT TO THAT PARTICULAR DOOR, SIR, FIRST OF ALL, DID YOU EVER USE THE LAUNDRY ROOM WHEN YOU WERE LIVING IN THE HOUSE? A: YES. Q: AND DID YOU EVER SEE ANYONE GO IN AND OUT OF THAT DOOR? A: NOT REALLY USED. Q: OKAY. AND DO YOU RECALL WHETHER IT WAS KEPT LOCKED WITH A DEAD BOLT OR SOME OTHER MEANS? A: UMM, I'M NOT SURE. Q: BUT YOU NEVER SAW IT USED? A: I NEVER USED IT. I NEVER REALLY SAW IT USED, NO. Q: WITH RESPECT TO THE GARAGE DOOR -- (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE FIVE PHOTOGRAPHS. I WOULD ASK -- I'M GOING TO SHOW THEM TO COUNSEL. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.) MR. SHAPIRO: DO WE NEED THAT BOARD STILL UP, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: MISS CLARK? (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) THE COURT: MISS CLARK, ARE YOU GOING TO USE 66 ANY LONGER? MS. CLARK: NO. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S HAVE IT TAKEN DOWN, PLEASE. MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH BEARING THE NUMBERS IN THE LOWER RIGHT-HAND CORNER, 000095. I ASK THAT IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 130. AND 000096 IN THE LOWER RIGHT-HAND CORNER OF THE NEXT PHOTOGRAPH, PEOPLE'S 131. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. (PEO'S 130 FOR ID = PHOTO/NO. 000095) (PEO'S 131 FOR ID = PHOTO/NO. 000096) MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, WE WOULD OBJECT TO PUTTING THEM ON THE ELMO BEFORE THERE IS A FOUNDATION. MS. CLARK: FINE. Q: MR. KAELIN, WERE YOU EVER INSIDE THE GARAGE OF THE LOCATION 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM? A: YES. Q: CAN YOU TELL US, PLEASE, SIR, THE -- TO THE BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION AT THIS TIME WHAT YOU RECALL SEEING INSIDE THAT GARAGE? A: IF YOU ENTER FROM THE LAUNDRY ROOM DOOR YOU WOULD SEE -- YOU WOULD WALK INTO A WEIGHT SET, WORKOUT CENTER IN THE FRONT, MIRRORS, A CAR WOULD BE PARKED AGAINST THE GARAGE DOOR, THE OPENING. Q: WHAT KIND OF CAR? A: TESTEROSA. Q: WHAT COLOR? A: RED. Q: WAS IT KEPT COVERED OR UNCOVERED? A: USUALLY COVERED. Q: OKAY. A: AND THERE WAS SHELVES WITH, I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE BUCKETS, PAINT MAYBE. Q: A LOT OF STUFF IN THERE? A: YES. Q: NOW, DO YOU RECALL MY ASKING YOU IF THERE WAS A GARAGE DOOR THAT LED OUT TO THE SOUTH PATHWAY IN YOUR MEMORY WHEN WE WERE DISCUSSING THIS CASE IN MY OFFICE? A: YES. Q: DID YOU REMEMBER THAT THERE WAS A GARAGE DOOR INITIALLY? A: NO. Q: AND WHY IS THAT? A: I DIDN'T SEE IT. Q: EVER USE IT? A: NO. Q: EVER SEE ANYONE USE IT? A: NO. MS. CLARK: PEOPLE'S 30 (SIC), I WOULD LIKE YOU TO LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR. MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, MAY I TAKE THE WITNESS ON VOIR DIRE? THE COURT: YES. MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU. VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO: Q: DID THE ITEMS IN THE GARAGE EVER VARY FROM TIME TO TIME? A: YOU MEAN STORAGE THINGS? Q: YES. A: I WOULDN'T KNOW. IT WOULD BE -- THERE COULD BE STUFF IN THERE, YES. Q: DID YOU GO TO THE GARAGE OFTEN? A: NO. Q: HOW MANY TIMES WOULD YOU SAY YOU WERE IN THE GARAGE DURING THE PERIOD OF TIME YOU WERE LIVING THERE? A: SIXTEEN. Q: SIXTEEN TIMES. AND YOU LIVED THERE FOR HOW LONG? A: SIX MONTHS. Q: IF YOU WERE SHOWN A PHOTOGRAPH, DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO TELL WHAT DATE THAT PHOTOGRAPH WAS TAKEN? A: NO. MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU. NOTHING FURTHER. MS. CLARK: OKAY. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: NEVER MIND. THE COURT: PROCEED. DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MS. CLARK: Q: DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE CONTENTS OF THE GARAGE WERE OR WHAT THE GARAGE LOOKED LIKE INSIDE AS OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994? A: OF SOME THINGS, YES. Q: OKAY. IF I SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE INTERIOR OF THAT GARAGE, CAN YOU TELL -- WILL YOU BE ABLE TO TELL US WHETHER IT FITS YOUR MEMORY OF THE APPEARANCE OF THAT LOCATION? A: YES. THE COURT: COUNSEL, I THINK -- MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, WE WOULD STILL OBJECT. THE COURT: EXCUSE ME. I THINK THE OBJECTION IS HE NEEDS TO LOOK AT THE PHOTOGRAPH AND TELL US IF THAT MATCHES HIS RECOLLECTION BEFORE IT IS SHOWN TO THE JURY. THE COURT: AND FOR THE RECORD THAT IS PEOPLE'S 130. MS. CLARK: PEOPLE'S 130, YES, SORRY. THE WITNESS: THAT IS THE GARAGE INSIDE. Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND IS THAT THE WAY YOU RECALL SEEING IT, SIR? A: YES. Q: THAT FITS YOUR MEMORY OF IT? A: YES. MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, MAY I RE-VOIR DIRE THE WITNESS BRIEFLY? THE COURT: NO. PROCEED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. YOU ARE LOOKING AT 130 RIGHT NOW, MR. KAELIN? A: YES. Q: ALL RIGHT. CAN YOU TELL US WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT? WHAT LOCATION IS THAT? A: THAT IS THE -- COMING FROM THE -- THE SHOT WAS TAKEN PROBABLY FROM THE LAUNDRY ROOM DOOR AND IT IS THE GARAGE. Q: SO YOU ARE LOOKING FROM THE INTERIOR OF THE HOUSE INTO THE GARAGE? A: YES. Q: AND IS THAT THE APPEARANCE OF THE GARAGE AS YOU LAST REMEMBER SEEING IT? A: YES. Q: OKAY. DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION, SIR -- I'M GOING TO USE A LASER. CAN YOU LOOK UP AT THE SCREEN FOR A MOMENT? A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) Q: OKAY. YOU SEE THIS LITTLE RED DOT? A: YES. Q: ALL RIGHT. FIRST OF ALL, WHAT AM I POINTING TO HERE? A: IT IS THE WEIGHTS, THE WORKOUT CENTER. Q: ALL RIGHT. AND BEHIND THAT, THOSE WEIGHTS, WHAT DO YOU SEE THAT I'M CIRCLING? A: THE CAR, THE TESTEROSA. Q: OKAY. AND IS IT COVERED HERE? A: YES, IT IS. Q: ALL RIGHT. AND IS THAT THE COVER YOU RECALL SEEING ON IT? A: YES. Q: WAS IT USUALLY KEPT COVERED IN THAT MANNER? A: YES. Q: OKAY. AND OVER HERE, SIR, (INDICATING), WHAT IS ON THE WALL OVER HERE? A: I CAN'T TELL FROM THE SHOT, BUT I THINK THAT IS THE MIRRORS. Q: OKAY. A: DARK ON THE SIDE. Q: NOW, I'M MOVING THE RED DOT TO AN AREA RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING), WHERE YOU SEE THIS BIG CARDBOARD BOX. A: YES. Q: AND WAS THAT -- DO YOU RECALL THAT BEING IN THE GARAGE AS WELL? A: IT PROBABLY WAS, BUT I CAN'T RECALL. I MEAN, THERE WAS STORAGE THINGS. Q: OKAY. A: SO IT PROBABLY -- YES, IT WAS -- Q: ALL RIGHT. AND I'M DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION NOW TO AN AREA JUST ABOVE THAT BOX, (INDICATING). CAN YOU SEE WHAT THAT IS, SIR? A: THAT IS THE DOOR. Q: LET ME SHOW YOU ANOTHER VIEW, PEOPLE'S 131, AND WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT HERE, SIR? A: THAT IS JUST A DIFFERENT ANGLE OF THE GARAGE AGAIN, THE SAME. Q: WITH ALL -- WITH THE CAR? A: RIGHT. Q: AND THEN THE WEIGHTS? A: THE SHOT IS TAKEN WHERE THE MIRRORS WOULD BE. Q: OKAY. AND THEN THE DOOR WOULD BE ON THE LEFT-HAND SIDE OF THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT YOU CAN'T SEE, RIGHT? A: CORRECT. Q: ALL RIGHT. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU A NEXT SERIES OF THREE PHOTOGRAPHS, THE ONE FIRST WITH THE NUMBER IN THE LOWER RIGHT-HAND CORNER OF 88, PEOPLE'S 132? MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, THERE WOULD BE A OBJECTION TO THESE BASED ON FOUNDATION. MS. CLARK: SAME LOCATION. I WILL SHOW THE WITNESS THE PICTURES FIRST. THE COURT: PLEASE. MS. CLARK: IF I COULD MARK THEM, THOUGH, SO I COULD REFER TO THEM. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. 132, 133 AND 134. MS. CLARK: CORRECT. THANK YOU. 133 HAS GOT THE NUMBER "89" IN THE LOWER RIGHT-HAND CORNER AND 134 HAS THE NUMBER 90 IN THE RIGHT-HAND CORNER. (PEO'S 132 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH/NO. 88) (PEO'S 133 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH/NO. 89) (PEO'S 134 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH/NO. 90) Q: BY MS. CLARK: MR. KAELIN, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT IS SHOWN IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS? A: THE GARAGE. Q: AND DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE ITEMS SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH? A: ITEMS THAT ARE STORED IN THE GARAGE. Q: OKAY. AND HAD YOU SEEN THEM THERE BEFORE WHEN YOU WERE LIVING THERE? A: YES. Q: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE CAR SHOWN IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS? A: YES. Q: IS THAT THE SAME AS THE CAR SHOWN IN THE PREVIOUS PHOTOGRAPHS YOU HAVE IDENTIFIED? A: YES. Q: IS THERE A COVER ON THE CAR IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS? A: NO. Q: THERE ARE BICYCLES SHOWN IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS. DO YOU RECALL SEEING BICYCLES SHOWN IN THAT POSITION IN THE GARAGE WHEN YOU LIVED THERE? A: YEAH, THERE COULD BE BIKES. THEY COULD BE TO THE OTHER SIDE, THIS SIDE, BUT YEAH, JUST LIKE THAT. Q: OKAY. AND THE BIG CARDBOARD BOX WITH THE TELEVISION ON TOP OF THE CHEST THAT YOU SEE THERE. A: YES. Q: THAT IS -- DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE THE SAME CARDBOARD BOX, CHEST AND TELEVISION THAT YOU SEE -- THAT YOU SAW IN THE PREVIOUS PHOTOGRAPHS? A: YES. Q: AND DOES THIS FIT YOUR MEMORY OF THE APPEARANCE OF THE INTERIOR OF THE GARAGE WHEN YOU WERE LIVING AT 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM? A: YES. Q: I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU PEOPLE'S 132 IF YOU WOULD PLEASE LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR. A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) Q: DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION NOW, SIR, TO THE TELEVISION SET AND THE CHEST AND THE LARGE CARDBOARD BOX, AS YOU LOOK ABOVE THOSE ITEMS, WHAT -- CAN YOU SEE WHAT IS ABOVE THE TELEVISION SET HERE, (INDICATING), AND IF COULD YOU LOOK AT THE SCREEN WHERE I'M GESTURING WITH THE LASER LIGHT, IF YOU CAN SEE IT. A: THAT IS THE DOOR. Q: 133, PLEASE. SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 133, I'M GESTURING WITH THE LASER LIGHT. WHAT IS THAT, SIR? A: THAT IS THE DOOR. Q: 134, PLEASE. AND ONCE AGAIN, IF YOU COULD LOOK AT THE SCREEN, I'M SORRY. A: THE DOOR AGAIN. Q: AND YOU SEE HERE THE CHEST AND THE TELEVISION SET AND THE CARDBOARD BOX? A: YES. Q: SHOWN IN THE PREVIOUS FOUR PHOTOGRAPHS? A: YES. Q: OKAY. AND DOES THIS -- DO THESE VIEWS OF THE GARAGE COMPORT WITH YOUR MEMORY OF ITS APPEARANCE WHEN YOU WERE LIVING THERE? A: YES. Q: ALL RIGHT. MR. KAELIN, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION BACK TO THE DATE OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994, ON THAT DATE I THINK YOU INDICATED THAT PAULA BARBIERI HAD CALLED IN THE AFTERNOON -- MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, WHETHER PAULA BARBIERI CALLED THE DEFENDANT ON THE DATE OF JUNE 12, 1994? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, ASKED AND ANSWERED. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE COURT: YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION. THE WITNESS: I'M PRETTY SURE. I'M PRETTY SURE, YES. Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. AND AFTER THAT PHONE CALL, SIR, DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE DEFENDANT ABOUT PAULA? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT DID HE TELL YOU ABOUT PAULA? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, HEARSAY. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: ANSWER? Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU CAN ANSWER. A: PART OF THE CONVERSATION WAS ABOUT THE RECITAL. Q: OKAY. AND WHAT DID HE TELL YOU ABOUT THAT? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. THE COURT: GROUNDS? MR. SHAPIRO: HEARSAY, IRRELEVANT. THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION. THE WITNESS: FROM WHAT I REMEMBER, THAT SHE WANTED TO GO AND I BELIEVE O.J. DIDN'T WANT HER TO GO, KIND OF ON HIS OWN. Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. SO YOU DIDN'T WANT HER TO GO TO THE RECITAL WITH HIM? A: AT THAT TIME, YES. Q: UH-HUH. DID HE TELL YOU WHAT HIS FEELINGS WERE ABOUT PAULA? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: ANSWER? THAT HE WASN'T SURE AS FAR AS JUST THE ONE -- MAYBE THE ONE, MAYBE NOT THE ONE. Q: BY MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY? A: TO SPEND -- YOU KNOW, TO BE THE ONE TO BE WITH. Q: OKAY. A: LIKE FOR LIFE. Q: OKAY. HE WASN'T SURE IF SHE WAS THE ONE FOR HIM? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, MISSTATES THE ANSWER. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION. Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. CAN YOU PLEASE TELL US WHAT DID THE DEFENDANT SAY TO YOU ABOUT HIS FEELINGS ABOUT PAULA? A: NOT BEING SURE IF PAULA WAS GOING TO BE THE ONE TO BE WITH. Q: OKAY. DID HE TELL YOU HE WAS UNDECIDED ABOUT HER? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, LEADING. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID HE TELL YOU WHETHER OR NOT HE HAD MADE A DECISION ABOUT WHETHER HE WANTED TO BE WITH HER OR NOT? A: NOT A DECISION. IT WAS UNDECIDED. Q: OKAY. NOW, DID YOU HAVE ANOTHER PHONE CONVERSATION WITH A WOMAN AFTER THAT POINT ON THE AFTERNOON OF JUNE THE 12TH? A: YES. Q: AND WHO WAS THAT? A: TRACY ADELE. Q: AND WHOSE FRIEND WAS THAT? A: MY FRIEND. Q: DID YOU SPEAK TO TRACY? A: BRIEFLY. Q: OKAY. AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER YOU BRIEFLY SPOKE TO TRACY? A: I HANDED THE PHONE BACK TO O.J. Q: AND THEN DID HE SPEAK TO HER? A: YES. Q: DID HE MAKE A DATE WITH HER? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, CALLS FOR SPECULATION AND CONCLUSION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU HEAR WHAT HE SAID TO HER? A: I DIDN'T HEAR ALL THE WORDS, NO. I TRIED NOT TO LISTEN. Q: DID YOU HEAR HIM SET UP A DATE TO MEET HER LATER? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU HEAR HIM SAY -- WHAT DID YOU HEAR HIM TELL HER? A: WELL, I KNOW IT WAS LONG DISTANCE, SHE WAS CALLING FROM ANOTHER STATE. Q: OKAY. WHAT DID YOU HEAR HIM SAY ABOUT MAKING ANY PLANS TO GET TOGETHER WITH HER, IF ANY? A: I'M NOT SURE OF THAT. I KNOW THEY TALKED AND SHE WAS INTERESTED IN BUSINESS, LIKE BEING AN ENTREPRENEUR AND THAT IS -- THEY WERE TALKING BUSINESS, SO THEY COULD HAVE TALKED ABOUT GETTING TOGETHER, BUT I'M NOT POSITIVE. Q: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. NOW, AT SOME POINT DID YOU LEAVE THE HOUSE THAT AFTERNOON? A: YES, I DID. Q: WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE THE HOUSE? A: I PROBABLY LEFT ABOUT 3:30 OR 4:00, TO PLAY BASKETBALL. Q: TO PLAY BASKETBALL? A: YES, I DID. Q: AND WHAT TIME DID YOU GET BACK? A: I GOT BACK AT ABOUT SIX O'CLOCK. Q: OKAY. AND WHEN YOU GOT BACK, WHAT DID YOU DO? A: I TALKED TO O.J. Q: WHERE WERE YOU WHEN YOU TALKED TO HIM? A: IN THE KITCHEN NOOK. Q: AND WHAT TIME WAS IT THEN? A: IT WAS ABOUT 6:30, 7:00. Q: AND HAD YOU BEEN WATCHING A GAME OR SOMETHING? A: YES. Q: WHAT GAME WAS THAT? A: I WAS WATCHING THAT IN MY ROOM. IT WAS HOUSTON AND THE NICKS, THE PLAYOFF GAME. Q: SO YOU SPOKE TO HIM AFTER THE GAME ENDED, DID YOU? A: YES. Q: AND HOW WAS IT THAT YOU CAME TO SPEAK TO HIM AFTER THE CAME ENDED? A: I THINK I HEARD HIM SHOUT "KATO." Q: AND WHEN HE DID THAT, WHAT DID YOU DO? A: "HEY," TALKED. Q: DID YOU LEAVE YOUR ROOM? A: YES. Q: WERE YOU IN YOUR ROOM WHEN YOU HEARD HIM CALL "KATO"? A: YEAH, OR LIKE I WAS ON LIKE KIND OF THE PATIO AREA, BUT I WAS IN MY ROOM. I COULD HAVE JUST GOTTEN OUT FOR A BIT AND HEARD THE NAME. Q: SO DID YOU GO INTO THE HOUSE WHEN HE CALLED YOU? A: YES. Q: DID YOU TALK TO HIM? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU TALK ABOUT? A: ABOUT THE GAME, ABOUT WHO WON THE GAME, THE RECITAL, HOW SYDNEY WAS AT THE RECITAL. Q: OKAY. WHAT DID HE SAY TO YOU ABOUT SYDNEY AT THE RECITAL? A: HE SAID SYDNEY WAS GREAT AT THE RECITAL. Q: AND SYDNEY IS HIS DAUGHTER, CORRECT? A: SYDNEY, HIS DAUGHTER, WAS AT A DANCE RECITAL. Q: WHAT ELSE DID HE TELL YOU? A: SHE WAS GREAT, THAT NICOLE WAS THERE. Q: AND -- A: AND FRIENDS. Q: THAT NICOLE WAS THERE WITH SOME FRIENDS? A: FRIENDS. Q: WHAT DID HE TELL YOU ABOUT NICOLE? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT, IF ANYTHING, DID HE TELL YOU ABOUT NICOLE? A: HE WANTED TO TALK WITH SYDNEY AND I DON'T THINK IT WAS THE WORDING, BUT NICOLE WASN'T GOING TO GIVE HIM TIME TO TALK TO SYDNEY AND HE WANTED TO TALK TO HIS DAUGHTER, AND I THINK THEY WENT OFF SOMEWHERE. Q: WHO WENT OFF SOMEWHERE? A: NICOLE AND THE KIDS. Q: WHAT DID THAT HAVE TO DO WITH NICOLE? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION. CALLING FOR SPECULATION ON THE PART OF THIS WITNESS. MS. CLARK: OKAY. MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE JUST HAVE A MOMENT, PLEASE? (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE DEFENDANT.) MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE APPROACH? THE COURT: WITH THE COURT REPORTER, (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:) THE COURT: SIDE BAR. WHAT IS THE OBJECTION, MR. SHAPIRO? MR. SHAPIRO: YES, YOUR HONOR. WE WOULD LIKE TO GET AN OFFER OF PROOF. YESTERDAY WITH MR. DARDEN WE GOT INTO A SITUATION WHERE WE HAD SIX OBJECTIONS SUSTAINED IN A ROW, YET THE INFERENCE OF THE QUESTIONS WE FELT HAD AN IMPACT ON THE CASE, AND I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO THE SAME SITUATION HERE, SO WE WOULD LIKE AN OFFER OF PROOF IN ADVANCE AS TO WHERE THEY ARE GOING WITH THIS WITNESS ON THESE HEARSAY QUESTIONS. MS. CLARK: THEY ARE NOT HEARSAY QUESTIONS. THESE ARE ADMISSIONS BY A DEFENDANT AND THIS WAS A SUBJECT OF AN INTERVIEW WITH MR. SHAPIRO. HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHERE WE ARE GOING. HE HAS GOT THE TRANSCRIPT. I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS. THIS WITNESS IS GOING TO TESTIFY, AND MR. SHAPIRO KNOWS IT, OR SHOULD KNOW IT VERY WELL IF HE HAS READ HIS MATERIAL, THAT THE DEFENDANT FELT THAT NICOLE WAS TRYING TO KEEP SYDNEY FROM BEING WITH HIM, BUT THAT HE MANAGED TO SEE SYDNEY FOR A LITTLE WHILE AND THIS IS -- AND THEN MAKES A COMMENT ABOUT NICOLE AND THE TIGHT DRESSES SHE WORE. THIS WAS TESTIFIED TO AT THE PRELIM, AT THE GRAND JURY AND AT SHAPIRO'S INTERVIEWS, PLURAL, SO COUNSEL IS NOT IN THE DARK ABOUT ANYTHING WITH THIS WITNESS. THE COURT: MISS CLARK, ALL HE ASKED FOR WAS AN OFFER OF PROOF, SO WE DON'T NEED TO DISCUSS WHETHER OR NOT HE HAS ALREADY GOT IT OR IT IS HIS INTERVIEWS AND THAT SORT OF THING. MS. CLARK: THIS IS A WITNESS, YOUR HONOR -- I THINK THE COURT DOESN'T KNOW -- THIS IS A WITNESS THAT HAS SPOKEN MORE TO MR. SHAPIRO THAN HE HAS TO US. THE COURT: THAT IS NEITHER HERE NOR THERE. MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, THE OBJECTION WOULD BE THAT IT IS HEARSAY AND THAT THERE IS NO VALID EXCEPTION FOR THIS TO COME IN. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE OBJECTION IS NOTED AND IT IS OVERRULED. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MISS CLARK, YOU MAY PROCEED. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q: ALL RIGHT. MR. KAELIN, WHEN YOU -- GET THAT QUESTION BACK. (BRIEF PAUSE.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT DID THE DEFENDANT TELL YOU ABOUT NICOLE AT THE RECITAL? WHAT DID HE TELL YOU ABOUT WHAT TRANSPIRED WITH NICOLE AND SYDNEY AT THE RECITAL? A: OKAY. ABOUT WHAT SHE WAS WEARING. Q: WHAT DID THE DEFENDANT TELL YOU TRANSPIRED, IF ANYTHING, WITH REGARD TO HIMSELF, NICOLE AND SYDNEY? A: OKAY. THAT O.J. WANTED TO SPEND TIME WITH SYDNEY AND THAT NICOLE WASN'T GOING TO GIVE HIM THE TIME TO HAVE WITH HIS DAUGHTER, TALK TO HER AT THE RECITAL, SO THEY WENT OFF. Q: DID HE TELL YOU WHETHER HE DID GET TO SPEND SOME TIME WITH SIDNEY ANYWAY? A: A SHORT TIME. Q: OKAY. WHAT, IF ANYTHING, DID HE TELL YOU ABOUT NICOLE HERSELF AT THE RECITAL? A: ABOUT HER -- HER OUTFIT THAT SHE HAD ON. Q: WHAT DID HE SAY ABOUT THAT? A: THAT THEY WERE WEARING -- WHO SHE WAS WITH, THAT THEY WERE WEARING TIGHT OUTFITS AND WONDERED IF THEY COULD BE GRANDMAS AND WEAR THOSE OUTFITS OUT. Q: DID HE REMARK THAT SHE WAS WEARING A TIGHT DRESS THAT NIGHT? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT REMARK DID HE MAKE -- WHAT, IF ANY, REMARK DID HE MAKE ABOUT WHAT SHE WAS WEARING THAT NIGHT? A: THAT IT WAS A TIGHT OUTFIT. Q: DID YOU HAVE SOME FURTHER CONVERSATION WITH HIM? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT? A: I WAS WONDERING IF I COULD TAKE A JACUZZI. Q: OKAY. AND DID HE GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO DO THAT? A: YES. Q: DID YOU TALK AT ALL ABOUT WHAT HE WAS GOING TO BE DOING THAT EVENING? A: YES. Q: WHAT DID HE TELL YOU? A: THAT HE WAS GOING TO TAKE A FLIGHT OUT, HE HAD TO PACK FOR A TRIP TO CHICAGO. Q: AND DID HE SEEM PLEASED ABOUT THAT? A: NO, THAT HE DIDN'T LIKE REDEYE'S. Q: DID HE GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO TAKE THE JACUZZI WHEN YOU ASKED FOR IT? A: YES. Q: SO WHAT DID YOU DO? A: I TOOK A JACUZZI. Q: ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS THAT? A: ABOUT 7:30, I'M GUESSING, 7:30, 7:45 I TOOK A JACUZZI. Q: WHAT TIME DID YOU FINISH TAKING THE JACUZZI? A: ABOUT 8:30. Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU GOT DONE WITH THE JACUZZI, WHAT DID YOU DO? A: I WENT TO MY ROOM. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO THERE? A: I GOT ON THE PHONE. Q: WHO DID YOU CALL? A: A FRIEND NAMED SUSAN. Q: AND WHILE YOU WERE ON THE PHONE WERE YOU INTERRUPTED BY ANYTHING? A: I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS DURING IT, BUT YES, O.J. CAME TO THE ROOM. Q: AND DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM? A: YES. Q: WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THAT CONVERSATION? A: THAT I FORGOT TO TURN OFF THE JACUZZI. Q: HE BROUGHT THAT TO YOUR ATTENTION? A: YES. Q: WHAT DID HE SAY ABOUT THAT? A: "YOU FORGOT TO TURN OFF THE JACUZZI." Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO? A: I WAS GOING, "OH, I WILL TURN IT OFF" AND HE SAID HE TURNED IT OFF ALREADY, THE JETS OF THE JACUZZI. Q: AND WHEN YOU HAD THAT CONVERSATION WITH HIM, WERE YOU STILL IN YOUR ROOM OR DID YOU EXIT YOUR ROOM? A: KIND OF THE DOORWAY. THERE IS A DOOR. I WAS IN THE ROOM STILL AND HE WAS ON THE -- OUT OF THE DOOR, THE OUTSIDE. Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: UMM, I WENT BACK AND I MADE ANOTHER CALL. Q: AND WHO WAS IT THAT YOU CALLED AT THAT TIME? A: ANOTHER FRIEND, TOM. Q: AND WHERE WAS HE LIVING AT THAT TIME? A: SAN DIEGO. Q: DO YOU REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT TIME YOU CALLED HIM? A: NOT THE EXACT TIME, BUT AROUND -- AROUND LIKE NINE O'CLOCK. Q: OKAY. DO YOU REMEMBER -- DO YOU KNOW BY HEART HIS PHONE NUMBER? A: YES. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: COUNSEL. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.) MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE HERE A BOARD THAT HAS BEEN SHOWN TO COUNSEL, I JUST MADE SURE OF THAT, AND ASK THAT IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 135. (BRIEF PAUSE.) MS. CLARK: IF YOU WOULD STEP DOWN, MR. KAELIN -- THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 135. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. (PEO'S 135 FOR ID = POSTERBOARD/B.K.'S PHONE BILL) THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU CAN SEE THE -- WHAT DOES THIS APPEAR TO BE, SIR? A: MY PHONE BILL. Q: AND CAN YOU TELL US, THERE IS A PORTION HERE HIGHLIGHTED INDICATING JUNE THE 12TH. THIS IS MILITARY TIME, 2103, WHICH IS 9:03 P.M. THERE IS SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA, AREA CODE 619 AND THE PHONE NUMBER THAT FOLLOWS. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT PHONE NUMBER? A: YES, THAT IS TOM'S NUMBER. Q: INDICATES THAT THE CALL WAS FOR EIGHT MINUTES. OKAY. 9:03, DOES THAT COMPORT WITH YOUR MEMORY AND HELP TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY EXACTLY WHAT TIME THAT CALL WAS PLACED? A: YES. Q: AND UP HERE, (INDICATING), DOES THAT INDICATE WHAT YOUR PHONE NUMBER WAS AS OF JUNE THE 12TH, 1994? A: YES, IT WAS. Q: YOU CAN HAVE A SEAT, SIR. A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU WANT TO SHOW THE BOARD TO 1492. MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. (BRIEF PAUSE.) (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) THE COURT: MISS CLARK. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU SPOKE TO TOM O'BRIEN? A: YES. Q: AND AS THE RECORD INDICATED, IT WAS ABOUT A SEVEN-MINUTE CALL. AFTER YOU HUNG UP WITH TOM O'BRIEN, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: UMM, I SAW O.J. AGAIN. Q: NOW, WERE YOU STILL ON THE PHONE AT THAT TIME OR HAD YOU HUNG UP? A: NO, I WAS STILL ON THE PHONE. Q: SO THE DEFENDANT CAME OUT TO SEE YOU AND YOU WERE STILL TALKING TO TOM? A: YEAH. I WAS TALKING TO TOM AND I HUNG UP DURING THE TALKING TO O.J. I SAID, "HEY, TOM, I'M CALL YOU BACK." Q: OKAY. WHAT HAPPENED AT THAT POINT? DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE DEFENDANT? A: YES. Q: TELL US WHAT THE NATURE OF THAT CONVERSATION WAS? A: IT WAS, UMM, TO GET SOME -- HE HAD HUNDRED DOLLAR BILLS AND HE NEEDED LIKE A FIVE FOR THE SKYCAP AND HE ASKED ME IF I HAD SOME CASH. Q: OKAY. SO AFTER HE TOLD YOU HE ONLY HAD HUNDRED DOLLAR BILLS AND HE NEEDED A FIVE DOLLAR BILL FOR THE SKYCAP, WHAT DID YOU DO? A: I GAVE HIM TWENTY. Q: YOU GAVE HIM -- WAS IT A TWENTY DOLLAR BILL? A: YES. Q: AND WHEN YOU GAVE HIM THE TWENTY DOLLAR BILL, DID YOU PUT IT IN HIS HAND? A: YES. Q: COULD YOU SEE BOTH HIS HANDS? A: ONE HAND FOR SURE, BUT I COULD SEE BOTH HANDS, YEAH. Q: DID YOU NOTICE HIM BLEEDING OR CUT ON EITHER HAND? A: NO. Q: AND SO -- AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: I GAVE HIM THE MONEY AND HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO GET A HAMBURGER AND I SAID, "CAN I GO?" Q: YOU INVITED YOURSELF TO GO WITH HIM? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE TO THAT? A: "SURE." Q: DID HE SEEM REAL EXCITED TO HAVE YOU COME? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, CALLS FOR SPECULATION. THE WITNESS: WOULDN'T YOU? THE COURT: MISS CLARK. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q: SO DID YOU GO WITH HIM, SIR? A: YES, I DID. Q: WHAT WAS HE WEARING AT THAT TIME? A: TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, I THOUGHT IT WAS A SWEAT OUTFIT. Q: OKAY. WHAT COLOR WAS IT? A: DARK COLOR. Q: COULD YOU TELL? A: IT WAS EITHER BLUE OR -- DARK BLUE OR BLACK. Q: OKAY. AND THE MATERIAL, WHAT KIND OF MATERIAL WAS IT? A: I THOUGHT IT WAS LIKE A COTTON. Q: WAS IT LONG-SLEEVED, SIR? A: YES. Q: DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT KIND OF SHOES HE WAS WEARING? A: NO. Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU LEFT, WHERE DID YOU WALK THROUGH, SIR? A: WE WALKED FROM THE SIDEWALK IN THE BACK TO THE BACK DOOR, PAST THE BAR, TO THE KITCHEN NOOK TO THE OUTSIDE. Q: WHAT CAR DID YOU GET INTO? A: UMM, THE ROLLS ROYCE. Q: THE ROLLS ROYCE. WHEN YOU GOT INTO IT, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US WHERE IT WAS PARKED? A: IN THE DRIVEWAY. Q: AND WHERE WAS IT FACING, WHAT DIRECTION, IF YOU COULD TELL US? A: THE HEADLIGHTS WOULD BE FACING THE ROCKINGHAM GATE. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH THAT HAS BEEN SHOWN TO COUNSEL, PEOPLE'S -- ASK IT NOW BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 136. THE COURT: 136. (PEO'S 136 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) Q: BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 136, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE CAR IN THE FOREGROUND OF THAT PHOTOGRAPH? A: YES. Q: WHAT IS IT? A: THAT IS THE ROLLS ROYCE. THE COURT: LOOK AT THE GRILLE. MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY? THE WITNESS: "LOOK AT THE GRILLE" HE SAID. MS. CLARK: IT IS A BENTLEY. Q: COULD IT BE A BENTLEY, SIR? A: OH, YES. Q: OKAY. IS THAT THE POSITION IN WHICH IT WAS USUALLY PARKED IN THE DRIVEWAY? A: YES. Q: AND THE GATE THAT YOU SAID IT WAS FACING IN THAT POSITION, WHAT GATE WOULD THAT BE FACING IN THE PHOTOGRAPH? A: THE PICTURE WAS TAKEN FROM THE ROCKINGHAM GATE. Q: WAS THAT THE POSITION IN WHICH IT WAS PARKED WHEN YOU GOT INTO IT WITH MR. SIMPSON ON THE DATE OF JUNE THE 12TH? A: YES. Q: WHO DROVE THE CAR? A: O.J. Q: AND APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU LEFT WITH HIM TO GO GET SOMETHING TO EAT? A: APPROXIMATELY 9:10. Q: ABOUT TEN MINUTES AFTER 9:00 WAS THAT? A: YES. Q: WHAT GATE DID YOU EXIT THROUGH? A: ROCKINGHAM GATE. Q: AS THE DEFENDANT DROVE, SIR, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE HIS HANDS? A: YES. Q: DID YOU SEE ANY INJURY TO THEM? A: NO. Q: ANY BLEEDING FROM EITHER HAND? A: NO. Q: AS YOU EXITED THE ROCKINGHAM GATE DID YOU LOOK TO SEE WHETHER THERE WERE ANY OTHER CARS PARKED ON THE CURB? A: NO, I DIDN'T LOOK. Q: ALL RIGHT. WHILE YOU WERE IN THE CAR ON THE WAY TO MC DONALD'S, DID YOU HAVE SOME CONVERSATION WITH THE DEFENDANT? A: YES. Q: WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THAT CONVERSATION? A: THERE WAS SOME CONVERSATION ABOUT THE FLIGHT. Q: THE REDEYE FLIGHT? A: AND AIRLINE; TIRED. AT ONE POINT I HAD SAID, "OH, YOU SHOULD TAKE NAP" AND IF THERE WAS GOING TO BE TIME -- "DO YOU THINK THERE WOULD BE TIME?" AND I WOULD SAY, "YOU SHOULD TRY TO TAKE ONE; YOU LOOK TIRED." Q: WHAT DID YOU SAY? A: I SAID, "YOU SHOULD HAVE TIME TO TAKE A NAP." Q: WHAT DID THE DEFENDANT SAY? A: HE PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE TIME TO. Q: HE PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE TIME TO? A: THEN I SAID, "YOU SHOULD TRY TO." Q: OKAY. DID HE MAKE ANY RESPONSE TO THAT? A: NO, NO RESPONSE. Q: DID YOU HAVE ANY CONVERSATION THAT CAUSED YOU TO NOTICE A CLOCK IN THE CAR? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THAT CONVERSATION? A: THAT WAS WHAT DIRECTED ME TO THE TIME, ABOUT TAKING TIME FOR A NAP. Q: OKAY. SO WHEN HE INDICATED -- A: THAT WAS -- Q: EXCUSE ME, SIR. A: AT 26TH AND SAN VICENTE. Q: THAT WAS WHEN YOU HAD GOTTEN TO 26TH AND SAN VICENTE? A: YES. Q: SO WHEN THE DEFENDANT SAID HE DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO TAKE A NAP, YOU LOOKED AT THE CLOCK? A: YES, THERE WAS A STOPLIGHT. Q: WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU WERE AT 26TH AND SAN VICENTE? A: 9:15 TO 9:18 ON THE CLOCK OF THE CAR. 9:15 TO 9:18. IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS RIGHT PAST THERE. Q: OKAY. WAS THIS A DIGITAL CLOCK? A: NO, IT WAS A NUMBERED CLOCK. WELL, I MEAN NUMERALS. A DIGIT WOULD BE THAT, TOO, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING. MS. CLARK: I DO. THE COURT: ANALOG. MS. CLARK: ANALOG. Q: AND SO YOU LOOKED AT THE CLOCK, YOU SAW IT WAS 9:15 TO 9:18, AND HOW LONG AFTER THAT WAS IT BEFORE YOU GOT TO MC DONALD'S? A: I THINK SIX MINUTES OR SO. Q: SO YOU GOT TO MC DONALD'S AT APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME? A: BETWEEN NINE -- LIKE 9:22. Q: AND DID YOU GO INTO THE MC DONALD'S OR DID YOU DO DRIVE-THROUGH? A: DRIVE-THROUGH. Q: AND THAT MC DONALD'S IS LOCATED WHERE? A: I'M PRETTY SURE IT IS ON SANTA MONICA ACROSS FROM A CARL'S JUNIOR I KNOW. Q: THAT IS SANTA MONICA BOULEVARD? A: YES. Q: NOW, YOU WENT TO -- WHEN YOU DROVE UP TO THE DRIVE-THROUGH WINDOW, WHO PAID FOR THE FOOD? A: I PAID, BUT O.J. GAVE THEM THE MONEY. Q: SO NOW YOU HAD ALREADY GIVEN HIM $20.00, RIGHT? A: YES. Q: SO YOU PULLED OUT ANOTHER TWENTY TO PAY FOR THE FOOD? A: YES. Q: DID HE ASK YOU TO DO THAT? A: NO. Q: YOU JUST DID IT? A: YES. Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN HE PAID FOR THE FOOD, AFTER PAYING FOR IT, DID HE THEN GIVE YOU ANY CHANGE BACK? A: YES. Q: DID YOU NOTICE HIS HANDS AS HE PAID FOR THE FOOD AND GAVE YOU YOUR CHANGE? A: YES. Q: DID YOU SEE ANY INJURY TO EITHER HAND? A: NO. Q: APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU GOT YOUR FOOD? A: 9:25, 9:26. Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, AS THE DEFENDANT DROVE HOME, WHAT WAS HE DOING? A: EATING THE FOOD. Q: SO HE ATE AND DROVE AT THE SAME TIME? A: YEAH, BUT HE FINISHED PRETTY FAST. YEAH, HE ATE AND DROVE. Q: AND DID YOU EAT AT THE SAME TIME WHILE YOU WERE IN THE CAR? A: NO. A FEW FRENCH FRIES. Q: SO AS HE ATE WITH ONE HAND, HE DROVE WITH THE OTHER; IS THAT RIGHT? A: YES. Q: WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE HIS HANDS? A: YES. Q: DID YOU SEE ANY INJURY TO EITHER HAND? A: NO. Q: ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU GOT HOME? A: IT WAS ABOUT 9:40. Q: OKAY. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER YOU ENTERED THE PROPERTY AT 360 ROCKINGHAM THROUGH THE ROCKINGHAM OR ASHFORD GATE? A: I'M PRETTY SURE IT WAS ASHFORD GATE. Q: WHEN THE CAR -- WHEN HE PARKED THE CAR, CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, IN WHAT POSITION HE PARKED THE CAR WHEN YOU RETURNED? A: THE SAME AS THE PICTURE. Q: AND WHEN YOU SAY "THE PICTURE," YOU MEAN PEOPLE'S 136 ON THE SCREEN NOW? A: YES. Q: DO YOU REMEMBER HOW THE GATE ON ASHFORD OPENED WHEN YOU WENT INSIDE? A: I DON'T, BUT IT JUST OPENED. I WASN'T AWARE. IT JUST WASN'T SOMETHING I LOOKED FOR. Q: DID YOU LOOK TO SEE WHETHER THERE WERE ANY CARS PARKED ON THE -- AT THE CURB OF THE ASHFORD GATE? A: I DIDN'T LOOK. Q: CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, WHETHER THE DEFENDANT OWNED ANY OTHER CAR BESIDES THE BENTLEY AND THE TESTEROSA YOU IDENTIFIED IN THE EARLIER PHOTOGRAPHS? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT? A: A FORD BRONCO. Q: COLOR? A: WHITE. Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHERE HE NORMALLY PARKED IT? A: USUALLY ON ASHFORD. Q: BY THE GATE? A: ON THE STREET. Q: I MEAN NEAR THE GATE ON THE STREET? A: YEAH, NEAR THE GATE. Q: WHEN YOU FIRST MOVED INTO THE PROPERTY IN JANUARY OF 1994, DO YOU RECALL SEEING IT PARKED IN THAT LOCATION FROM THE FIRST TIME YOU MOVED IN? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, LEADING. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHEN DO YOU FIRST RECALL SEEING THE WHITE FORD BRONCO PARKED NEAR THE ASHFORD GATE ON THE STREET? A: USUALLY ON ASHFORD? Q: YEAH. A: YES. Q: WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU NOTICED THAT? A: THE EXACT DATE, I DON'T KNOW. PROBABLY JANUARY. Q: AND -- A: IT WAS THERE. Q: JANUARY OF '94? A: OF '94. Q: IS THAT WHEN YOU MOVED INTO ROCKINGHAM? A: YES. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.) MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE ANOTHER PHOTOGRAPH. I WOULD ASK THAT IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 137. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 137. (PEO'S 137 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) Q: BY MS. CLARK: LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR, SIR. MR. KAELIN, YOU CAN LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR? A: YES. Q: DO YOU SEE THE CAR THAT IS SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S 137? A: YES. Q: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT CAR? A: YES, I DO. Q: WHAT IS IT? A: THAT IS O.J.'S FORD WHITE BRONCO. Q: THE ONE THAT YOU WERE DISCUSSING EARLIER? A: YES. Q: WHO DROVE THAT CAR, SIR? A: UMM, O.J. AND SOMETIMES GIGI TO THE STORE. Q: ANYBODY ELSE? A: NO. THAT I KNEW OF, NO. Q: HOW OFTEN DID GIGI EVER DRIVE IT? A: SOMETIMES SHE WOULD TAKE IT TO THE STORE. IF SHE NEEDED TO DO AN ERRAND, SHE COULD TAKE IT. Q: OTHERWISE IT WAS THE DEFENDANT? A: YES. Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO -- WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM, THE DEFENDANT PARKED THE CAR IN THE LOCATION YOU INDICATED ON PEOPLE'S 136, CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: AFTER THE MC DONALD'S? Q: YES. A: UMM, I GOT OUT OF THE CAR AND I HAD MY FOOD AND I WALKED TOWARDS THE KITCHEN AND I THOUGHT I WAS KIND OF INVITING MYSELF, SO I TURNED AND I WENT TO MY ROOM. Q: OKAY. SO YOU WERE CARRYING YOUR FOOD, SIR? A: YES. Q: YOU SAY YOU WALKED TOWARD THE KITCHEN. WERE YOU INSIDE THE HOUSE ALREADY? A: NO, NO. Q: YOU WALKED TOWARD THAT DOOR? A: TOWARD THE DOOR. Q: AND WERE YOU INTENDING TO GO INSIDE THE HOUSE? A: I WAS THINKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, I WAS GOING TO DO IT AND I DIDN'T DO IT. YEAH, I THOUGHT I SHOULD EAT IN MY ROOM. I WAS GOING TO GO INTO THE KITCHEN AREA, BUT I THOUGHT I'M KIND OF INVITING MYSELF, I SHOULD PROBABLY GO TO MY ROOM. Q: OKAY. SO YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE YOUR DINNER WITH THE DEFENDANT INSIDE THE HOUSE? A: WELL, YES. Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU GOT TO THE EXTERIOR PART OF THE HOUSE IN FRONT OF THE KITCHEN -- (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: -- YOU STOPPED AT THAT POINT? A: YES. MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH. I ASK THAT IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 138. IT HAS BEEN SHOWN TO COUNSEL. (PEO'S 138 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU SEE THE LOCATION YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT WHEN YOU SAID YOU WALKED TOWARD THE KITCHEN AREA? A: YES. Q: I'M GOING TO USE MY -- THE LASER LIGHT AND ASK THAT YOU DIRECT IT, IF YOU CAN SEE THE SCREEN, SIR. DO YOU SEE THE LIGHT? A: YES, I DO. Q: OKAY. TELL IT WHERE TO GO. A: OKAY. GO TO THE RIGHT, TO THE RIGHT MORE, UP AND GO ABOUT TWO INCHES TO THE RIGHT, AND THAT IS THE DOOR. Q: ALL RIGHT. THAT LOCATION RIGHT THERE, (INDICATING)? A: YES. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO ASK THAT THAT AREA BE MARKED WITH A TELESTRATOR AND MAKE SURE IT IS CORRECT. Q: IS THAT RIGHT? A: CORRECT. YES, THAT IS THE DOOR. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU. ASK THAT THIS BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 138-A. THE COURT: 138-A. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. (PEO'S 138-A FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHEN YOU GOT TO THAT LOCATION WHAT DID YOU DO? A: WHEN I GOT TO THE DOOR? Q: YES. A: I TURNED. Q: OKAY. WHAT DID YOU SEE? A: O.J. Q: AND WHERE WAS HE? A: AT THE DRIVER'S SIDE DOOR OF THE ROLLS. Q: DID YOU SAY ANYTHING TO HIM? A: NO. Q: WHAT DID YOU DO? A: I LOOKED AND SAID, "I'LL EAT IN MY ROOM." Q: WHAT DID YOU DO THEN? A: I TOOK OFF TO MY ROOM TO EAT THROUGH THE PATH, THROUGH THE PATH TO MY ROOM. Q: DID HE MAKE ANY RESPONSE TO YOU WHEN YOU SAID, "I'LL EAT IN MY ROOM"? A: OH, NO, THAT WAS IN MY MIND, "I WILL EAT IN MY ROOM." Q: YOU DIDN'T SAY THAT OUT LOUD? A: OH, NO. IN MY HEAD I WAS GOING "I WILL EAT IN MY ROOM." Q: DID HE SAY ANYTHING TO YOU? A: NO. Q: DID YOU SAY ANYTHING TO HIM? A: NO. Q: SO AFTER THE CAR WAS PARKED YOU GOT OUT AND WALKED TO THE KITCHEN DOOR. DID YOU HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WITH MR. SIMPSON? A: NO. Q: AND HE SAID NOTHING TO YOU? A: NO. Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU SAY YOU WALKED THROUGH THAT PATH, ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE PATH YOU DESCRIBED FOR US, THE PATH YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT? A: PART OF IT IS ON THE PICTURE. Q: UH-HUH. A: THAT IS THE DRIVEWAY. YOU CAN SEE WHERE THE PATH GOES AND IT COMES AROUND BY THE HEDGES HERE, (INDICATING). YOU CAN BARELY SEE IT IN THE SHOT, BUT THAT IS THE PATH. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER, 139, YOUR HONOR. THE PHOTOGRAPH HAS BEEN SHOWN TO COUNSEL. (PEO'S 139 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU SEE THE BEGINNING OF THE PATH IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR? A: YES. Q: CAN YOU INDICATE TO US WHERE IT IS? A: YEAH. RIGHT WHERE THE RIGHT ANGLE IS THERE IS THE PATH. MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO ASK THAT IT BE MARKED WITH THE TELESTRATOR. THE WITNESS: YES. Q: BY MS. CLARK: IS THAT IT? A: YES, THAT IS THE PATH. MS. CLARK: PEOPLE'S 139-A. THE COURT: 139-A. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. (PEO'S 139-A FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) MS. CLARK: PRINT. Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: OKAY. SO I TOOK THE FOOD AND I WALKED DOWN THE PATH TO MY ROOM AND I STARTED EATING THE FOOD AND I MADE A PHONE CALL. Q: NOW, DID YOU MAKE THAT PHONE CALL IMMEDIATELY WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO YOUR ROOM OR DID YOU DO A COUPLE THINGS FIRST, DO YOU REMEMBER? A: PRETTY MUCH RIGHT AWAY I DID. I MADE IT, YOU KNOW, WITHIN A MINUTE, I THINK. IT WAS PRETTY QUICK, I'M PRETTY SURE. Q: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU -- AFTER YOU WALKED BACK TO YOUR ROOM, YOU ENTERED, WITHIN A MINUTE YOU MADE A PHONE CALL? A: YEAH. Q: WHO DID YOU CALL? A: I CALLED TOM AGAIN. Q: THE SAME TOM THAT YOU CALLED EARLIER BEFORE YOU LEFT FOR MC DONALD'S? A: RIGHT. I TOLD HIM I WOULD CALL HIM BACK AND I CALLED HIM BACK. Q: DO YOU RECALL EXACTLY WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT YOU CALLED HIM? A: IT WAS ABOUT AFTER WE GOT BACK, 9:40, 9:45. Q: AND WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO THE EXACT TIME THAT YOU CALLED HIM IF YOU SAW YOUR PHONE BILL? A: YES. (BRIEF PAUSE.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: MR. KAELIN, IF YOU COULD, I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU FIRST -- A: OKAY. Q: -- THAT SECOND ENTRY. A: YES. Q: ALL RIGHT. LET'S LOOK AT THAT FOR A MINUTE. OKAY. YOU ALREADY DESCRIBED THE FIRST ENTRY ON JUNE THE 12TH HERE AT 9:03, THAT FIRST CALL YOU MADE TO TOM IN SAN DIEGO. DO YOU SEE BELOW THAT ON JUNE 12, 9:37, INDICATED IN MILITARY TIME AS 2137, AT 9:37 A CALL TO SAN DIEGO? A: YES. Q: AGAIN, DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE THE SAME PHONE NUMBER YOU CALLED EARLIER THAT NIGHT? A: YES. Q: AGAIN, THIS SECOND CALL LASTED FOR APPROXIMATELY SEVEN MINUTES. DOES THAT COMPORT WITH YOUR MEMORY OF THE TIME AND THE DURATION OF THE CALL YOU MADE TO TOM? A: YES. Q: NOW, THAT CALL THAT YOU MADE AT 9:37, HOW LONG WAS THAT MADE AFTER YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT STANDING AT HIS CAR? A: I -- PRETTY QUICKLY BECAUSE I THINK I WAS EATING MY FOOD ON THE PHONE, SO RIGHT AFTER. RIGHT AFTER, YEAH, WITHIN A MINUTE, A MINUTE TO TWO. Q: A MINUTE TO TWO MINUTES? A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q: IS THAT YES? A: YES, THAT IS YES. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS AND COUNSEL WERE REFERRING TO THE BOARD, PEOPLE'S 135. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. PERHAPS NOW IF I COULD LET THE JURY SEE IT. (BRIEF PAUSE.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: AFTER YOU COMPLETED THAT PHONE CALL TO TOM, APPROXIMATELY 9:44 THEN, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: I WANTED TO TYPE UP SOME LIKE RESUMES AND THERE IS AN OFFICE AREA WITH A TYPEWRITER. Q: THAT OFFICE AREA THAT YOU DESCRIBED WAS PART OF THE AREA YOU LIVED IN? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO IN THAT REGARD? A: WELL, THERE IS A TYPEWRITER AND I GOT THE PAPER AND I PLUGGED IT IN AND IT MADE A NOISE, BUT IT WASN'T WORKING, SO I TRIED OTHER OUTLETS AND THEN IT WASN'T MAKING A NOISE ANY MORE AND I TRIED OUTLET AFTER OUTLET AND I KIND OF GAVE UP. Q: OKAY. HOW LONG A PERIOD OF TIME DID YOU DO THAT? A: OH, ABOUT -- AFTER FINDING EVERYTHING, ABOUT FIFTEEN TO TWENTY MINUTES. Q: OKAY. SO CAN YOU TELL US APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU GAVE UP ON THE TYPEWRITER? A: WELL, LIKE ABOUT TEN -- 10:00 OR SO. Q: OKAY. AND WHAT DID YOU DO THEN? A: I MADE A PHONE CALL. Q: AND WHAT -- AND WHAT PHONE CALL -- WHO DID YOU CALL? A: ANOTHER FRIEND, RACHEL. Q: RACHEL WHAT? A: RACHEL FERRARA. Q: WHAT TIME WAS IT, APPROXIMATELY, WHEN YOU PLACED THAT CALL, SIR? A: ABOUT LIKE 10:10. Q: NOW, AT THE TIME YOU MADE THAT PHONE -- THAT CALL TO RACHEL FERRARA, CAN YOU TELL US WERE THERE LIGHTS ON IN YOUR BEDROOM? A: IN MY BEDROOM? Q: YES. A: YES. Q: THERE IS A -- YOU INDICATED THERE IS A BATHROOM THAT IS ATTACHED TO PART OF YOUR LIVING QUARTERS, RIGHT? A: YES. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH THAT HAS PREVIOUSLY BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 129-B. Q: DO YOU SEE THE AREA THAT YOU EARLIER INDICATED IS THE BATHROOM? A: YES, I DO. Q: DOES THAT AREA HAVE A WINDOW? A: YES, IT DOES. Q: AND WHERE DOES THAT WINDOW FACE? A: SOUTH. Q: SOUTH? A: IT WOULD FACE THE BACK AREA TO THE NEIGHBOR'S. Q: AND WHEN YOU SAY "SOUTH," IS THERE A PATHWAY THAT RUNS ALONGSIDE THAT WALL? A: YES. Q: AND THAT SOUTH PATHWAY, DOES IT -- IS THAT THE BORDER OR THE END OF THE PROPERTY? A: YES. Q: TO THE SOUTH OF THAT WALKWAY IS THERE ANY KIND OF FENCE? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT KIND OF FENCE? A: I'M PRETTY SURE IT IS IRON, IRON FENCE. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH THAT HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS 68-A. OKAY. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE LOCATION SHOWN THERE? A: YES. Q: TELL US WHAT IT IS. A: OKAY. THAT WOULD BE THE BACK OF THE ROOM -- OF MY ROOM, AND THAT IS THE NEIGHBOR'S YARD ON THE RIGHT OF THE FENCE AND THAT IS THE PATHWAY, THE WALKWAY. Q: DO YOU SEE SOMETHING JUTTING OUT OVER THE WALKWAY, SIR, JUTTING OUT OF THE WALL? A: YES, I DO. Q: WHAT IS THAT? A: THAT IS THE AIR CONDITIONER. Q: AND WHERE DOES THE FRONT OF THAT AIR CONDITION GO? A: IN MY ROOM. Q: NOW, WHEN YOU SAY THAT IS THE WALL OF YOUR -- THE OUTSIDE WALL OF YOUR ROOM, I'M GOING TO ASK THAT -- (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO DIRECT THE ARROW TO POINT TO WHAT WALL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. A: OKAY. UMM, IT IS -- IT IS REAL DARK FROM WHERE I'M SITTING. I CAN'T -- BUT THE PATHWAY IS THERE, I CAN TELL, AND THE ARROW IS ON THE WALL. OKAY. KEEP -- Q: TELL THE ARROW -- TELL THE ARROW. A: TO GO WHERE? TO THE AIR CONDITIONER OR THE WALL? Q: TO GO TO YOUR WALL. A: OKAY. YOU ARE -- GO TO THE AIR CONDITIONER WITH THE ARROW. OKAY. THAT IS THE WALL. YOU ARE ON THE WALL. Q: OKAY. AND WHERE DOES YOUR WALL END? A: WELL, THE CAN'T TELL FROM THAT SHOT WHERE IT ENDS, BUT THERE IS AN OFFICE THAT LEADS TO THE MAIN HOUSE. Q: OKAY. BUT IS THAT THE WALL THAT IS THE OUTSIDE OF YOUR ROOM, SIR? A: YES, IT IS. MS. CLARK: OKAY. COULD THAT BE 68-B? (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: 68-B(1). THE COURT: NOTED. MR. FAIRTLOUGH: A(1). MS. CLARK: A(1). THE COURT: EXCUSE ME. PEOPLE'S 68-A(1). THANK YOU. (PEO'S 68-A(1) FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, THAT WALL, SIR, THAT THE ARROW IS POINTING TO, IS THAT THE WALL -- THE OUTSIDE OF THE WALL THAT YOUR BED WOULD BE PLACED AGAINST? A: YES. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, WE WERE TALKING EARLIER ABOUT THE WINDOW THAT IS INSIDE THE BATHROOM OF YOUR RESIDENCE. CAN YOU SEE OUT -- WHEN YOU LOOK OUT THAT WINDOW, SIR, ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE AREA THAT WOULD BE TO THE RIGHT OF THE AIR CONDITIONER OF THE SOUTH PATHWAY? A: NOT REALLY. Q: HOW MUCH OF A VIEW OF THE SOUTH PATHWAY CAN YOU GET FROM THAT BATHROOM WINDOW? A: YOU CAN -- YOU CAN SEE OUT JUST IN FRONT OF YOU. Q: SO YOU CAN'T SEE TO THE RIGHT OR THE LEFT? A: WELL, I GUESS IF YOU -- IF YOU WANTED TO LIKE STICK YOUR HEAD OR SOMETHING OUT, BUT THE WINDOW ITSELF YOU CAN'T. IT IS -- Q: I'M SORRY? A: -- TURN CRANK HANDLE AND THE WINDOW GOES LIKE THAT, (INDICATING), SO IF IT BLOCKS -- IF IT TURNS, YOU CAN'T REALLY SEE TO THE RIGHT BECAUSE IT BLOCKS THINGS. Q: OKAY. SO THE WINDOW OPENS OUT FROM LEFT TO RIGHT? A: YEAH, IT DOES. Q: OKAY. AND CAN YOU CRANK IT ALL THE WAY TO THE RIGHT SO THAT IT WOULD GO FLUSH AGAINST THE HOUSE? A: I DON'T THINK SO. I DON'T THINK YOU CAN. Q: OKAY. WHILE YOU WERE TALKING TO RACHEL ON THE PHONE, WHERE WERE YOU IN YOUR ROOM? A: I WAS LEANING AGAINST THE BED. Q: OKAY. LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR, SIR. A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) Q: WHEN YOU SAY YOU WERE LEANING AGAINST THE BED -- A: OKAY. SEE THE BED? Q: YES. A: THERE IS A -- THE HEADBOARD? Q: YES. A: OKAY. RIGHT THERE KIND OF, SO TAKE THE AN ARROW AND GO STRAIGHT AHEAD, RIGHT THERE, (INDICATING). Q: WAS YOUR BACK UP AGAINST THAT HEADBOARD? A: YES. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, DO YOU HAVE MUCH MORE WITH THIS EXHIBIT? I NEED TO CHANGE COURT REPORTERS. MS. CLARK: I THINK I DO, SO -- THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MS. CLARK: COULD THIS BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 129-B(1), YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: 129-B(1). ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR MORNING RECESS. PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITIONS TO YOU. DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONGST YOURSELVES, FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, DON'T ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU, DON'T CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER IS SUBMITTED TO YOU. MR. KAELIN, THIS IS A 15-MINUTE RECESS. YOU ARE ORDERED TO RETURN IN FIFTEEN MINUTES. ALL RIGHT. WE WILL STAND IN RECESS. THANK YOU. (RECESS.) (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. ARE WE READY? MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE. (BRIEF PAUSE.) (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY. MR. BRIAN KAELIN IS ON THE WITNESS STAND UNDER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MISS CLARK. GOOD MORNING AGAIN, MR. KAELIN. THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING. THE COURT: YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH, SIR. MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CONTINUE. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU INDICATED THAT YOU PLACED A PHONE CALL TO RACHEL FERRARA AT ABOUT 10:10 P.M. A: YES. Q: AND THAT DURING THAT PHONE CALL YOU WERE SEATED ON THE BED WITH YOUR BACK UP AGAINST THAT HEADBOARD? A: YES. Q: DURING THAT PHONE CALL, SIR, DID SOMETHING UNUSUAL OCCUR? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT? A: I HEARD A THUMPING NOISE. Q: HOW MANY THUMPS DID YOU HEAR? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, LEADING. THE WITNESS: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: THREE. Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU DEMONSTRATE FOR US HOW LOUD IT WAS? A: SOMEWHAT, YES. Q: GO AHEAD. A: HERE? Q: GO AHEAD. A: THUMP, THUMP, THUMP. (WITNESS POUNDS ON WITNESS STAND). Q: WHERE DID THAT NOISE SEEM TO BE COMING FROM? A: FROM THE BACK OF THE WALL. Q: FROM BEHIND YOU WHERE YOU WERE SITTING? A: RIGHT, FROM BEHIND THE WALL FROM WHERE I WAS SITTING. Q: DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING OCCUR IN YOUR ROOM AS A RESULT OF THOSE THUMPS ON THE WALL? A: YES. Q: WHAT? A: THERE IS A PICTURE THAT MOVED. Q: OKAY. AND WHERE IS THAT PICTURE, SIR? A: IT IS NOT IN THIS SHOT. Q: CAN YOU TELL US, GIVE US SOME IDEA? A: DO YOU WANT THE ARROW TO MOVE? Q: NO, THAT ARROW CAN STAY THERE. A: OKAY. IT WOULD BE -- SEE THIS -- NOT -- UMM, NEXT TO THE BED, THE DRESSER. Q: YES. A: IF YOU GO STRAIGHT ABOVE IT, BY THE HEADBOARD BOARD, IT IS RIGHT ABOVE THAT ON THE -- (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. LET ME SHOW A PHOTOGRAPH TO COUNSEL FOR A MOMENT. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.) MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH THAT HAS BEEN SHOWN TO COUNSEL. NEXT IN ORDER, PEOPLE'S 140. THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 140. (PEO'S 140 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) Q: BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 140, SIR, CAN YOU PLEASE LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR? A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) YES. Q: CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU SEE THE LOCATION WHERE THE PICTURE WAS? A: YEAH. THE PICTURE IS RIGHT THERE. Q: WAS THAT THE PICTURE THAT WAS ON YOUR WALL ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH? A: I THINK THAT IS THE SAME PICTURE. Q: AND WAS IT IN THAT LOCATION? A: YES. MS. CLARK: OKAY. AND FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS GESTURING THERE IS ONLY ONE PICTURE ON HIS BEDROOM WALL. THE COURT: CORRECT. Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT HAPPENED WITH THAT PICTURE WHEN THE THUMPS OCCURRED? A: THE PICTURE TILTED FROM -- THAT WOULD BE RIGHT TO LEFT. Q: THE PICTURE MOVED? A: YES, IT DID. Q: AT THAT POINT THAT YOU HEARD THE THUMPS ON THE WALL, SIR, APPROXIMATELY HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN ON THE PHONE WITH RACHEL FERRARA? A: ABOUT A HALF HOUR. Q: AND SO APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU HEARD THE THUMPS ON THE WALL? A: AT ABOUT 10:40. Q: IS THAT EXACT, 10:40? A: WELL, WHAT I REMEMBER. I DIDN'T LOOK AT THE CLOCK, BUT AROUND 10:40. Q: DO YOU RECALL PREVIOUSLY TESTIFYING THAT IT WAS 10:40 TO 10:45? A: YES. Q: OKAY. AND IS THAT CORRECT? A: YES. Q: SO AT APPROXIMATELY 10:40 TO 10:45, WHEN YOU HEARD THE THUMPS AND YOU SAW THE PICTURE MOVE, WHAT DID YOU DO? A: WELL, I WAS ON THE PHONE STILL AND I WAS TALKING TO RACHEL AND I THOUGHT -- I SAID TO RACHEL -- I ASKED HER, "DID WE JUST HAVE AN EARTHQUAKE?" Q: DID THOSE THUMPS ALARM YOU, SIR? A: AFTER SHE SAID WE DIDN'T HAVE ONE, YES. Q: AND WHY WERE YOU ALARMED? A: WELL, IF IT WASN'T THAT, THEN I THOUGHT THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, SOMEONE BACK THERE. Q: SOMEONE BACK THERE AND WHERE WOULD "THERE" BE? A: "THERE" IS BEHIND THE WALL ON THE PATH THAT WE SHOWED BEFORE. Q: AND THAT PATH THAT WE HAVE SHOWN BEFORE, THAT IS THE SOUTH PATHWAY THAT RUNS ALONG THE OUTSIDE OF YOUR EXTERIOR WALL? A: YES. MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S 68-A. Q: BY MS. CLARK: IS THAT THE PATHWAY THAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO? A: YES, IT IS. Q: THAT YOU THOUGHT SOMEONE WAS ON WHEN YOU HEARD THE THUMPS? A: YES. Q: NOW, IF YOU WOULD, SIR -- (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: SEE THE AIR CONDITIONER YOU HAVE EARLIER IDENTIFIED, SIR -- A: YES. Q: -- AS THE BACK OF THE ONE THAT GOES INTO YOUR ROOM. SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 129-B, CAN YOU TELL US WHERE ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH YOUR AIR CONDITIONER IS? A: UMM, RIGHT IN FRONT OF THAT LAMP ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE BED. MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS POINTING TO A STANDING LAMP THAT WOULD BE AS YOU FACE THE BED, TO THE LEFT SIDE OF THE BED. Q: AND IT IS THAT GRATED AREA RIGHT ABOVE THE LAMP? A: YES, IT IS. Q: WHERE IN RELATIONSHIP TO THAT AIR CONDITIONER DID YOU HEAR THE SOUND OF THE THUMPS? A: THE -- THE THUMPS CAME FROM BEHIND THE WALL. EXACTLY WHERE, I DON'T KNOW, BUT I KNOW IT WAS BEHIND THE WALL WITHIN, YOU KNOW, A FEW FEET OF THE AIR CONDITIONER. Q: OKAY. AND IS THAT -- IS THAT WALL COVERING, IS THAT WOOD PANELING OR IS THAT WALLPAPER? A: THAT IS WOOD. Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN RACHEL TOLD YOU THAT IT WAS NOT AN EARTHQUAKE, YOU BECAME ALARMED THINKING SOMEONE WAS BACK THERE. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: WELL, I WAS ON THE PHONE WITH HER AND I TOLD HER THAT I WAS GOING TO CHECK ON IT. Q: AND WHAT -- HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK TO HER AFTER YOU HEARD THE THUMPS ON THE WALL? A: YOU KNOW, TWO TO THREE MINUTES. Q: AND WHEN YOU SAY YOU WERE GOING TO GO AND CHECK ON IT, WHAT DID YOU INTEND TO DO? A: WELL, THAT -- SEE THE DRESSER RIGHT THERE NEXT TO THE BED? ON THE TOP DRAWER I HAVE LIKE A LITTLE LIGHT, FLASHLIGHT. I WAS GOING TO TAKE THAT LIGHT AND LOOK BEHIND THERE. Q: LOOK BEHIND WHERE? A: BEHIND THE PATH. Q: THE PATH THAT YOU HAVE EARLIER IDENTIFIED? A: YES. Q: HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT GOING BACK THERE ONTO THAT LITTLE PATHWAY? A: SCARED. Q: WHY? A: BECAUSE THERE COULD BE SOMEONE BACK THERE AND I JUST HAD A LITTLE FLASHLIGHT. Q: OKAY. AND WHAT WAS THAT PATHWAY LIKE? A: WELL, IT IS DARK AND THERE IS LEAVES. IT IS VERY NARROW. Q: HOW WELL-LIT -- YOU SAID IT WAS DARK? A: YES. Q: AND YOU HAD -- WHAT WAS THE SIZE OF THAT FLASHLIGHT YOU HAD? A: THIS SIZE, (INDICATING). IT WAS A LITTLE, YOU KNOW, THICKER AROUND, BUT IT WAS ABOUT THAT SAME LENGTH. MS. CLARK: OKAY. FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS HOLDING UP A PEN. THE COURT: YES. Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. YOU DID NOT GO TO LOOK THROUGH THE BATHROOM WINDOW? A: NO. Q: YOUR INTENTION WAS TO GO AROUND TO THAT SOUTH PATHWAY? A: YES. Q: DID IT OCCUR TO YOU TO LOOK THROUGH THE BATHROOM WINDOW? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU CAN ANSWER. A: NO, IT NEVER DID. Q: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU TOLD RACHEL THAT YOU WERE GOING TO GO BACK THERE AND CHECK OUT THE NOISE? A: YES. Q: WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT? A: OKAY. I HUNG UP THE PHONE AND I GOT THE FLASHLIGHT AND I WALKED THE PATHWAY, THE FRONT PATHWAY OUT OF MY FRONT DOOR, TO THE DRIVEWAY. Q: OKAY. NOW, WHEN YOU WENT TO THE DRIVEWAY, YOU SAID YOU TOOK A PATHWAY AND THAT PATHWAY LED YOU THROUGH WHAT? A: YOU GO BY THE POOL AND WHEN YOU GO BY THE POOL YOU GO TO THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE, THE SIDE THAT WOULD FACE ASHFORD, AND THEN YOU GO AND YOU HIT THE DRIVEWAY. (BRIEF PAUSE.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO INDICATE ON PEOPLE'S 66 THE PATH THAT YOU TOOK FROM YOUR ROOM -- A: OKAY. Q: -- AFTER YOU HEARD THE THUMPS? THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. YOU CAN STEP DOWN, MR. KAELIN. THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE, ON PEOPLE'S 66, PLEASE INDICATE THE PATH THAT YOU TOOK. A: OKAY. I CAME OUT OF THE DOORS, STEPS UP THERE, AND THIS IS THE PATH, (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS TRACING THE PATHWAY THAT GOES THROUGH THE LAWN AREA ALONG ASHFORD STREET. THE COURT: YES, OUT TO THE DRIVEWAY. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q: OKAY. YOU INDICATED THAT YOU HEARD THE THUMPS AT 9:40 TO 9:45? A: NOT AT THAT TIME, NO. IT WAS 10:00. Q: I'M SORRY, 10:40 TO 10:45. THANK YOU, SIR. AND YOU REMAINED ON THE PHONE WITH RACHEL FERRARA FOR ANOTHER TWO TO THREE MINUTES? A: YES. Q: SO AT APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU EXITED YOUR ROOM TO GO OUT TO THE PATHWAY? A: SO IT WAS ABOUT TWO TO THREE MINUTES AFTER THAT TIME, 10:43, 10:44. Q: OKAY. AND WHEN YOU WENT OUT TO THE PATHWAY, DID YOU -- WHERE YOU WENT OUT ON THE LAWN AREA? A: YEAH, BUT I STAYED ON THIS PATH, (INDICATING). Q: ALL RIGHT. WHAT DID YOU SEE WHEN YOU WERE ON THAT PATH? A: ON THIS PATH? Q: YES. A: NOTHING. I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING UNTIL I GOT TO THE DRIVEWAY. Q: WHEN YOU GOT TO THE DRIVEWAY AREA WHERE THE PATH MEETS THE DRIVEWAY? A: YES. Q: WHAT DID YOU SEE? A: I SAW A LIMOUSINE. Q: WHERE WAS THAT LIMOUSINE? A: IT WAS RIGHT BEHIND THE GATE ON ASHFORD, (INDICATING). Q: WAS IT FACING INTO THAT ASHFORD GATE? A: YES. Q: COULD YOU SEE WHETHER ANYONE WAS INSIDE IT? A: NO. Q: DID YOU GO TO OPEN THE GATE FOR THE LIMOUSINE DRIVER? A: NO. Q: YOU CAN TAKE YOUR SEAT. A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, CAN WE -- THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, MISS CLARK. DO WE NEED THE POSTER? MS. CLARK: YES. WE ARE GOING TO USE IT AGAIN VERY SHORTLY. THE COURT: OKAY. Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, WHETHER OR NOT THE HEADLIGHTS OF THAT LIMOUSINE WERE ON? A: I DON'T THINK THEY WERE ON. Q: OKAY. SO WAS IT DARK IN THAT AREA? A: YES. Q: AND CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, WHETHER THE DRIVEWAY WAS DARK? A: YES. THERE IS LITTLE LIGHTS BARELY THAT ARE VERY DIM. I THINK ONE OR TWO OF THOSE WERE ON BY THE DRIVEWAY, BUT DARK. Q: WHERE ON THE DRIVEWAY ARE THOSE LIGHTS? A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q: CAN YOU SHOW US. A: I THINK IF I REMEMBER THEY WERE LIKE HERE, (INDICATING), MAYBE ONE HERE, (INDICATING). Q: OKAY. DO YOU WANT TO DO THAT ONE MORE TIME SO COUNSEL CAN SEE YOU. A: I THINK I REMEMBER THAT LIKE HERE, A LAMP LIGHT HERE, AND MAYBE THERE, (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS POINTED TO THE EDGE OF THE DRIVEWAY, THAT WOULD BE THE LEFT BORDER OF THE DRIVEWAY JUST BELOW THE TREE OVER WHICH IS WRITTEN "GATE CONTROL BOX," AND THEN BELOW THAT TO THE LEFT OF THE OTHER TREE ON THAT SAME EDGE OF THE DRIVEWAY, THE LEFT EDGE. GO AHEAD, YOU CAN SIT DOWN. THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND -- SO YOU INDICATED THOSE ARE DIM LIGHTS? A: YES. Q: AND THE DRIVEWAY WAS BASICALLY IN DARKNESS? A: YES. Q: AND YOU INDICATED YOU DID NOT LET THE LIMOUSINE DRIVER IN? A: NO. Q: WHY NOT? A: I THOUGHT EVERYTHING WAS TAKEN CARE OF. I DIDN'T THINK OF -- OF LETTING HIM IN BECAUSE HE COULD GET A BUZZ IN. Q: WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU THOUGHT IT WAS TAKEN CARE OF? A: WELL, I -- I -- MY PHONE DOESN'T RING TO THE GATE, SO I THOUGHT, IF ANYTHING, THE LIMO GUY WOULD KNOW WHAT TO DO, WHAT WAS GOING ON. I DIDN'T KNOW. I THOUGHT HE WAS IN. Q: DID YOU THINK THE DEFENDANT WAS GOING TO LET HIM IN? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. THE WITNESS: YES. MR. SHAPIRO: CALLS FOR SPECULATION. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. THE JURY IS TO DISREGARD. MS. CLARK: I'M ASKING FOR HIS STATE OF MIND, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: CALLS FOR SPECULATION, DID HE THINK THAT THIS DEFENDANT WAS GOING TO DO SOMETHING. THAT IS CALLING FOR SPECULATION. PROCEED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO US WHY YOU DID NOT LET THE LIMO DRIVER IN? A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q: WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT? WHAT LED YOU NOT TO LET HIM IN? A: BECAUSE I THOUGHT SOMEONE HAD TALKED TO HIM AND THAT IS WHY HE WAS OUT THERE. THERE WAS A REASON THAT HE WAS WAITING THERE. I DIDN'T -- YOU KNOW, I -- I DIDN'T KNOW WHY HE WASN'T IN, BUT I DIDN'T QUESTION IT. Q: DID YOU EXPECT -- WHAT WERE YOU EXPECTING? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT. THE COURT: GOES TO HIS SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT. OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION. THE WITNESS: OH, THERE IS A PHONE, SO IF THERE WAS A LIMO DRIVER THE GATE WOULD OPEN UP, HE WOULD BE BUZZED IN. Q: DID YOU THINK THE DEFENDANT WAS HOME? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. SHAPIRO: CALLS FOR SPECULATION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: ANSWER. A: YES. THE COURT: NEXT QUESTION. Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU THINK YOU SAW THE LIMO DRIVER -- EXCUSE ME -- THE LIMOUSINE PARKED AT THE ASHFORD GATE? A: ABOUT 10:50. Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU PASSED BY THE BACK OF THE HOUSE TO GO OUT ONTO THAT LAWN AREA AND TAKE THAT PATH DOWN TO THE DRIVEWAY, DID YOU NOTICE WHETHER THERE WERE ANY LIGHTS ON IN THE HOUSE? A: UMM, I THOUGHT THE LIGHTS WERE ON UPSTAIRS AND NOT DOWN, IF I REMEMBER. Q: DID IT SEEM TO BE DARK DOWNSTAIRS? A: YES. Q: AND YOU THOUGHT -- A: TO MY RECOLLECTION IT WAS DARK. Q: YOU THOUGHT THERE WAS A LIGHT ON UPSTAIRS? A: YES. Q: LET ME BACK UP FOR A MINUTE. YOU INDICATED THAT YOU HEARD THE THUMPS ON THE WALL AT APPROXIMATELY 10:40 TO 10:45. BEFORE HEARING THE THUMPS YOU WERE TALKING ON THE PHONE TO RACHEL? A: YES. Q: AFTER HEARING THE THUMPS, WERE YOU STILL TALKING ON THE PHONE TO RACHEL? A: YES. Q: WERE YOU LISTENING TO HEAR FOOTSTEPS AT EITHER TIME? A: I DID NOT. Q: DO YOU KNOW WHETHER YOU ARE ABLE TO HEAR FOOTSTEPS FROM INSIDE YOUR ROOM IF SOMEONE IS WALKING ON THE SOUTH PATHWAY? A: I DON'T. I DON'T THINK SO. THE COURT: MISS CLARK, DO WE NEED 66 ANY MORE? MS. CLARK: WE DO. RIGHT NOW. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU SAW THE LIMOUSINE PARKED AT THE ASHFORD GATE? A: YES, I DID. Q: YOU DID NOT LET THE LIMO DRIVER IN. WHERE DID YOU GO? WHAT DID YOU DO? A: I CHECKED ON THE NOISE. Q: WHERE -- CAN YOU SHOW US ON THIS PEOPLE'S 66 -- A: COME DOWN? Q: -- WHAT YOU DID? A: OKAY. SO I HAD THE FLASHLIGHT AND THE LIMO WAS HERE, (INDICATING), SO I START WALKING THIS WAY, (INDICATING), AND I HAD THE LIGHT ON AND I WENT -- THERE IS A GATE HERE, (INDICATING), THAT IS -- I COULD PICK UP THE GATE. YOU CAN PICK IT UP, IT IS NOT WORKING, SO I LEANED IT AGAINST THE TREE AND I WENT DOWN JUST A BIT -- THE PEN LIGHT -- THE LIGHT WAS PRETTY DIM. I LOOKED A LITTLE BIT AND THEN I CAME BACK. MS. CLARK: OKAY. FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS INDICATED HE WALKED SOUTH ON THE DRIVEWAY OVER TO THE GARAGE AREA, MADE A LEFT AT THE CORNER OF THE GARAGE AND WALKED IN ON THAT SOUTH PATHWAY A SHORT DISTANCE. THE COURT: YES. Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. AS FAR AS YOU GOT ON THAT SOUTH PATHWAY, SIR, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE AREA -- THE GROUND AREA AROUND THE AIR CONDITIONER IN YOUR ROOM? A: NO. Q: AND WHY DID YOU STOP ON THE PATHWAY WHERE YOU DID? A: I JUST DID. I COULDN'T SEE. I WAS -- I JUST STOPPED. Q: WHY? A: YOU KNOW, I WAS SCARED, BUT -- THAT IS IT. Q: YOU WERE SCARED? A: SCARED, YEAH. Q: OKAY. AND SO YOU BACKED OUT AGAIN? A: YES, I DID. Q: WHERE DID YOU GO THEN? A: I WENT BACK OUT. Q: OKAY. A: AND THE LIMO WAS STILL THERE AND I THOUGHT MAYBE I SHOULD LET THIS GUY IN, SO I WENT TO THE GATE CONTROL BOX, THERE IS A BUTTON, PRESSED AND IT OPENS UP. Q: OKAY. SO YOU WALKED DOWN THE DRIVEWAY AROUND THE GARAGE TO THE SOUTH PATHWAY, CAME BACK OUT, WALKED BACK UP THE DRIVEWAY AND THE LIMO DRIVER -- THE LIMOUSINE WAS STILL OUTSIDE THE ASHFORD GATE? A: YES. Q: WHEN YOU SAID YOU WENT TO THE GATE CONTROL BOX, YOU POINTED TO AN AREA ON PEOPLE'S 66. IS THAT WHERE IT IS INDICATED BY THAT TREE? A: YES. Q: AND THEN DID THE GATE OPEN? A: YES, IT DID. Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: OKAY. THE GATE OPENED AND HE DROVE IN AND THERE WAS A DOG AND I TOLD HIM TO WATCH IT, AND CHACHI, THE DOG, WENT HERE, (INDICATING), AND THE LIMO DRIVER PARKED HERE, (INDICATING). Q: CHACHI THE DOG, WHO IS THAT? A: CHACHI IS A CHOW. Q: WHAT COLOR? A: BLACK. Q: AND WHO DOES HE BELONG TO? A: TO O.J. Q: AND WHEN THE LIMO DRIVER PULLED UP, WHERE WAS CHACHI? A: CHACHI WAS KIND OF LIKE LAYING RIGHT HERE SORT OF BY THE BOX THAT HE COULD HAVE BEEN HIT, SO I SAID, "CHACHI, MOVE, MOVE." Q: SO WHEN THE LIMO DRIVER PULLED IN, CHACHI WAS STILL LYING THERE ON THE DRIVEWAY BY THE GATE CONTROL BOX? A: YES. Q: YOU HAD TO GET HIM TO MOVE? A: YES. Q: DID HE BARK? A: NO. Q: DID HE GET EXCITED? A: NO. Q: WHERE DID YOU PUT HIM? A: HE GOES IN THIS SPOT. HE KIND OF LIKE LAYS HERE. MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS INDICATING THE CORNER OF GRASS WHERE THE DRIVEWAY MEETS THE PATH GOING THROUGH THE ASHFORD SIDE OF THE LAWN. Q: AND WHERE DID THE LIMO DRIVER GO? A: RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING). Q: TO THE FRONT DOOR AREA? A: YES. MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS POINTING TO THE AREA OF THE DRIVEWAY IN FRONT OF THE ENTRANCE. Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: OKAY. THE LIMO DRIVER GOT OUT OF THE CAR. I'M PRETTY SURE I SAID HELLO, AND THE EXACT DIALOGUE, I DON'T KNOW, IT WAS -- Q: WAIT. WHY DON'T YOU TAKE YOUR SEAT, SIR. A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, DO WE NEED 66? MS. CLARK: WE WILL AGAIN, BUT I WILL TAKE IT DOWN FOR NOW. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: IF YOU WANT TO JUST LEAVE IT THERE, DOWN, SO I CAN SEE THE JURY AND COUNSEL. MS. CLARK: SURE. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU WENT AROUND -- WHEN YOU WENT AROUND THE SOUTH PATHWAY, YOU SAID YOU WENT DOWN THE DRIVEWAY AROUND THE GARAGE TO THAT SOUTH PATHWAY. WHY DID DO YOU THAT? A: WHY DID I DO IT? Q: YEAH. A: I WAS GOING TO INVESTIGATE THAT NOISE. Q: THE THUMPS? A: YES. Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN THE LIMO DRIVER GOT OUT OF THE CAR, DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM? A: YES. Q: WHAT DID YOU SAY? A: WELL, I KNOW I ASKED HIM ABOUT THE -- IF WE HAD AN EARTHQUAKE, AND HE SAID, "NO, NOT THAT I AM AWARE OF. I HAVE BEEN SITTING THERE AND I DIDN'T FEEL ANYTHING MOVE," AND HE HAD MENTIONED THAT HE WAS COMING UP FROM REDONDO. AND I DON'T KNOW IF I -- WHAT I REMEMBER ABOUT -- IF I MENTIONED ABOUT OVERSLEEPING OR NOT. I SAID, "DID O.J. OVERSLEEP?" OR IF HE SAID IT, THAT HE OVERSLEPT, BUT THAT CAME UP AND I SAID, "OH, HE HAS GOT A FLIGHT TO CATCH." Q: OKAY. A: AND -- Q: YOU WERE WORRIED THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE LATE OR WHAT? A: YEAH, THAT HE WAS GOING TO MISS THE FLIGHT. Q: NOW, AT THAT PARTICULAR POINT IN TIME WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF THE THUMPS? WAS THAT STILL IN YOUR MIND? A: OH, YES. Q: HOW WERE YOU FEELING ABOUT THAT? A: WELL, I WAS GOING TO CHECK ON IT AGAIN AND I FELT BETTER THAT THERE WAS SOMEONE THERE. Q: WERE YOU STILL AFRAID OR NERVOUS OR EXCITED ABOUT THAT? A: YES. IT WAS STILL THERE, BUT YOU KNOW, I HAD -- THE DRIVER WAS THERE. I MEAN, I WAS TELLING HIM ABOUT THE NOISE, THAT I WAS GOING TO CHECK ON IT AGAIN, AND I TOLD HIM I HEARD THIS NOISE AND I HEARD THIS THUMP AND I'M JUST GOING TO GO BACK THERE AND CHECK AGAIN. Q: ALL RIGHT. AND SO AFTER YOU TOLD HIM ABOUT THAT, WHAT DID YOU DO? A: WELL, I KNOW THAT AT ONE POINT ALSO THE GOLF BAG WAS OUT IN THE FRONT. I LOADED THAT FOR HIM IN THE TRUNK AND THEN I THINK I CHECKED ON THE NOISE. Q: WHEN YOU SAY THERE WAS A GOLF BAG OUT FRONT, WHERE WAS IT? A: THE DRIVEWAY WHERE HE PARKED. Q: UH-HUH. A: RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE ENTRANCE. I DON'T WANT TO LIFT IT UP AGAIN, BUT IT WAS RIGHT IN FRONT. I WILL POINT IT OUT. Q: WAS IT IN FRONT OF THE FRONT DOOR? A: ABOUT TEN FEET IN FRONT OF THE FRONT DOOR, RIGHT WHERE THE DRIVEWAY WOULD START UP AGAIN. Q: WHERE THE DRIVEWAY MEETS THE -- A: THE GRASS AND THE ENTRANCE -- I WILL HAVE TO POINT IT. Q: GO AHEAD. A: OKAY. THE DRIVEWAY HERE, THERE IS LIKE SEATS HERE, (INDICATING). Q: RIGHT. A: IT WOULD BE RIGHT HERE ON THE WALK, (INDICATING). Q: IN BETWEEN THE SEATS THERE? A: BETWEEN THE SEATS, RIGHT, LAYING THE SAME WAY. Q: WHAT DID DO YOU WITH THOSE GOLF BAGS AFTER YOU LET THE LIMO DRIVER IN? A: ONE GOLF BAG. Q: ONE GOLF BAG? A: I PUT IT IN THE TRUNK. Q: THEN WHAT DID YOU DO? A: THEN I THINK I CHECKED ON THAT NOISE. Q: CAN YOU SHOW US WHERE YOU WENT? A: OKAY. I WENT FROM HERE AGAIN, (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: THE WITNESS IS INDICATING OUT ON THE DRIVEWAY. THE WITNESS: OUT ON THE DRIVEWAY AND I TOLD HIM ABOUT THE NOISE AND I TOLD CHACHI TO COME WITH ME. I SAID, "CHACHI, COME," AND HE DIDN'T, SO THAT WAS MY REACTION, TOO, SO I WENT BACK THERE. Q: OKAY. YOU WENT DOWN BY THE GARAGE TO THE SAME AREA AGAIN? A: (NODS HEAD UP AND DOWN.) Q: IS THAT YES? A: YES, BUT I WENT A LITTLE FURTHER. Q: CAN YOU SHOW US, SIR, HOW FAR YOU WENT THIS TIME? A: OKAY. SO THE FIRST GATE WAS HERE, (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: INDICATING -- THE WITNESS: KIND OF RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING). THERE IS A TREE THAT LEANS UP AGAINST SORT OF AND IT IS RIGHT THERE, (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: THERE IS A PORTION ON THIS DIAGRAM WHERE THE GARAGE ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF IT IS EXTENDED WHEN YOU FIRST HIT THE GARAGE AREA. AND THE WITNESS IS INDICATING THE CORNER -- THE LEFT MOST -- THE RIGHT MOST CORNER OF THAT OUTCROPPING. THE WITNESS: CORRECT. Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. IS THAT WHERE THE FIRST GATE IS? A: THAT IS THE FIRST GATE. Q: OKAY. DID YOU GO THROUGH IT? A: YES. THIS TIME I WENT A LITTLE BIT FURTHER AND THERE IS A SECOND GATE, BUT I DIDN'T GO BEYOND THAT. Q: YOU WENT UP TO THE SECOND GATE? A: I WENT UP TO ABOUT WHERE THE PODIUM IS, THE SECOND GATE, WITH THE FLASHLIGHT, ABOUT THREE FEET FROM THE SECOND GATE. Q: THREE FEET BEHIND THE SECOND GATE YOU STOPPED? A: YES. Q: AND WHERE WOULD THAT BE ON THE DIAGRAM? A: WELL -- WELL, IS THIS THE ENTIRE GARAGE AND THIS IS THE -- I GUESS THE SECOND GATE WOULD BE ABOUT HERE, (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS INDICATING THE AREA WHERE THE MIDDLE YELLOW ARROW IS. THE COURT: YES, SLIGHTLY TO THE LEFT. MS. CLARK: MAYBE. Q: AS YOU FACE THE DIAGRAM TO THE RIGHT OF THE ARROW MARKED "B.K." AND YOU STOPPED THREE FEET BEFORE THAT? A: YEAH, ABOUT THREE FEET IN FRONT OF IT AND SHINED THE LIGHT. Q: AND WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE? A: WELL, IT WAS DARK. I REALLY DIDN'T SEE MUCH. THE BEAM WAS -- YOU KNOW, I COULD SEE UP TO ABOUT WHERE MR. COCHRAN IS RIGHT THERE. MS. CLARK: OKAY. FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS INDICATING TEN FEET. MR. COCHRAN: LESS THAN TEN FEET. MS. CLARK: EIGHT. MR. COCHRAN: SEVEN IS ALL RIGHT. SEVEN FEET. ABOUT SEVEN FEET. MS. CLARK: COMPROMISE. MR. COCHRAN: SEVEN, EIGHT FEET. MS. CLARK: OKAY. FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS INDICATED APPROXIMATELY SEVEN TO EIGHT FEET IN DISTANCE. THE WITNESS: RIGHT. Q: BY MS. CLARK: SO WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE AREA OF THE WALKWAY THAT WAS RIGHT BEHIND YOUR ROOM? A: NO. Q: WAS THAT IN DARKNESS? A: YES. Q: AFTER YOU -- AND YOU STOPPED AT THAT POINT? A: YES, I DID. Q: WHY? A: WELL, I FIGURED I WOULD JUST GIVE UP. I DIDN'T WANT TO INVESTIGATE ANY MORE. Q: WHY NOT? A: I JUST -- I DID. I DON'T KNOW. I WAS SCARED, BUT NOT SCARED, AND THE LIMO DRIVER WAS THERE AND I JUST ENDED UP GOING BACK. Q: WERE YOU STILL AFRAID OF WHAT MIGHT BE BACK THERE? A: WELL, I WANTED TO STILL KNOW WHAT WAS BACK THERE. I WAS GOING TO INVESTIGATE MORE, BUT I STOPPED THERE AND I WAS KIND OF LIKE WITH THIS LOUSY FLASHLIGHT, AND IN MY MIND I WAS GOING TO SEE IF I HAD A BETTER FLASHLIGHT AND I WAS GOING TO GO UP TO THE DRIVER TO TALK TO HIM. Q: SO DID YOU TURN BACK AT THAT POINT? A: I DID. Q: WHERE DID YOU GO? A: BACK TO THE FRONT. BACK, TURNED AROUND TO THE FRONT OF THE DRIVEWAY. Q: AND YOU WENT WHERE? A: I WENT TO THE LIMO, (INDICATING). Q: OKAY. NOW, ON YOUR WAY BACK TO THE LIMO, DID ANYTHING DRAW YOUR ATTENTION? A: YES. Q: WHAT? A: I SAW THAT THERE WAS LIKE A KNAPSACK THAT WAS IN THE DRIVEWAY WHERE THE ROLLS ROYCE WAS PARKED. Q: CAN YOU SHOW US WHERE YOU SAW THAT? A: WELL, THIS IS -- THE SPOT OF THE ROLLS ROYCE, (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS INDICATED THE SOUTHERN MOST PORTION OF THE DRIVEWAY THAT LEADS OUT TO ROCKINGHAM WHERE THERE IS AN INDENTATION. THE WITNESS: YES. Q: BY MS. CLARK: THAT IS WHERE THE ROLLS ROYCE WOULD BE PARKED? A: YEAH. IT WOULD BE PARKED RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING). Q: AND WHERE DID YOU SEE THIS SMALL -- THIS KNAPSACK? A: IT WAS ON THE RIGHT BACK TAILLIGHT ON THE BOTTOM RIGHT WHERE THE GRASS KIND OF WOULD START UP. MS. CLARK: I DON'T THINK THE JURY IS ABLE TO SEE. Q: COULD YOU INDICATE AGAIN WHERE YOU SAW THAT KNAPSACK? A: IT WAS KIND OF LIKE RIGHT HERE ON THE GRASS AND CEMENT -- AND THE DRIVEWAY, (INDICATING). (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: I WILL TELL YOU WHAT. I'M GOING TO ASK -- COULD WE GET THOSE ARROWS? THE COURT: I GOT ARROWS AND I GOT DOTS. WHICH WOULD YOU LIKE? MS. CLARK: HOW ABOUT A DOT. THE COURT: WHAT COLOR DOT? Q: BY MS. CLARK: HUM, WHAT COLOR WAS THE KNAPSACK, SIR? A: I THOUGHT IT WAS BLACK WITH A BROWN LEATHER TO IT. THE COURT: THE BEST I CAN DO IS BLUE. MS. CLARK: OH, WELL. WE WILL TAKE RED. THANK YOU. THE COURT: TAKE THEM ALL. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHY DON'T YOU PUT THE DOT ON THE DIAGRAM WHERE YOU RECALL SEEING THE KNAPSACK. A: THIS DIAGRAM IS -- IT WOULD BE LIKE RIGHT THERE, (INDICATING). Q: WAS IT ACTUALLY, SIR, ON THE DRIVEWAY RATHER THAN THE GRASS? A: YEAH. WITH THIS DRAWING IT WAS CLOSER -- HERE IS THE ROLLS ROYCE, (INDICATING), AND THE LIGHT WOULD BE OUT, BUT IT WAS STICKING OUT. WITH THIS DRAWING IT IS KIND OF -- I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS EXACT, BUT IT WAS ON THE GRASS PART OF IT, BUT MORE ON THE CEMENT. Q: OKAY. AND HOW BIG WAS THAT KNAPSACK? A: IT WAS LIKE A COLLEGE KNAPSACK I THOUGHT. Q: LIKE THE SIZE OF A BOOK BAG? A: UMM, A LITTLE -- KIND OF LIKE THAT, (INDICATING), THE BRIEFCASE -- WHATEVER THAT CASE IS THERE. MS. CLARK: I DON'T WANT TO MARK THE DETECTIVE'S BAG, BUT LET ME SHOW THE JURY. Q: DID IT SEEM TO BE ABOUT THE SIZE OF THIS BAG? A: YEAH. MS. CLARK: LET'S DESCRIBE THIS BAG. IT APPEARS TO BE ABOUT A FOOT AND A HALF IN LENGTH AND ABOUT ONE FOOT HIGH, BLACK, AND IT HAS BLACK STRAPS. Q: BUT IT SEEMED -- A: IT WASN'T THE DESIGN, BUT THAT SIZE. Q: BUT THAT SIZE? A: THAT IS WHAT I REMEMBER. Q: HAD YOU EVER SEEN THAT BAG BEFORE? A: NO. Q: AND THEN WHERE DID YOU GO, SIR? A: OKAY. THEN I WENT BACK IN THE -- I WAS HERE WITH THE DRIVER, (INDICATING), AND O.J. WAS OUTSIDE, TOO, AND SO I TOLD HIM ABOUT THE NOISE ALSO. Q: OKAY. WHY DON'T YOU TAKE YOUR SEAT, SIR. A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) MS. CLARK: WAIT. I THINK MAYBE WE SHOULD -- WAS EVERYBODY ABLE TO SEE? (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: MISS CLARK. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q: LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING, SIR. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD CHACHI BARK? A: I HAVE HEARD HIM BARK. Q: AND WHEN? A: WHEN? THE DATE? Q: NO. WHAT WAS THE EVENT? YOU CIRCLED IT ON THE CALENDAR OR WHAT? A: UMM, I THINK WHEN KATO, THE OTHER DOG -- NOT THIS DOG, NO -- KATO, ANOTHER DOG, WAS OVER, THAT THEY PLAY AND KATO WOULD START BITING HIM AND GO GRRRR, GRRRR, GRRRR AND DO THAT. Q: DID YOU EVER SEE HIM BARK AT STRANGERS? A: I DIDN'T SEE TOO MANY STRANGERS THERE, SO NO, HE WAS PRETTY MUCH FRIENDLY. Q: WHEN YOU SAY KATO, ANOTHER DOG, WHO ARE YOU REFERRING TO? A: IT IS THE AKITA, THE AKITA DOG. Q: BELONGING TO? A: TO O.J., THE KIDS. Q: UH-HUH. AND DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THE AKITA NAMED KATO WENT TO LIVE WITH NICOLE AT SOME POINT? A: YEAH, IT WAS LIVING OVER ON BUNDY AND IT WOULD COME OVER ALSO AND IT WAS SOMETIMES THERE, SOMETIMES THERE, BUT MOSTLY ON BUNDY. Q: IT WOULD COME OVER BY ITSELF TO ROCKINGHAM OR DID NICOLE BRING IT? A: IT DROVE. NO, IT WOULD COME OVER WITH NICOLE, THE KIDS. IT WOULD BE OVER THERE SOMETIMES, BUT MOSTLY ON BUNDY. Q: OKAY. THAT SECOND GATE THAT YOU INDICATED ON THE SOUTH PATHWAY, SIR, IS THAT EVER KEPT LOCKED? A: THE SECOND GATE IN THE BACK? Q: RIGHT, ON THAT SOUTH PATHWAY? A: NO, NO. Q: OKAY. A: NOT THAT I REMEMBER. Q: SO IF YOU HAD WANTED TO GO THROUGH IT THAT NIGHT, COULD YOU HAVE OPENED IT? A: YES. Q: AND WHY WAS IT THAT YOU WERE WILLING TO GO BACK A SECOND TIME TO THAT SOUTH PATHWAY? A: I GUESS JUST A LITTLE BIT SAFER KNOWING THERE WAS A LIMO DRIVER AND IT WAS -- I JUST DID IT. I JUST WENT BACK THERE. I THOUGHT I WAS BEING, YOU KNOW -- DOING A GOOD THING IF I FOUND A PROWLER OR SOMETHING. Q: OKAY. YOU INDICATED THAT THE AKITA NAMED KATO BELONGED TO THE DEFENDANT? MR. SHAPIRO: ASKED AND ANSWERED. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW WHO HE BELONGED TO. I THINK IT WAS -- IT WAS LIKE NICOLE'S, THE KIDS AND O.J.'S. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHO BOUGHT IT? A: I DON'T KNOW WHO BOUGHT IT. I THINK MAYBE O.J. BOUGHT IT. Q: OKAY. DID IT STAY AT ROCKINGHAM SOMETIMES? A: YES. Q: DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT PLAY WITH THAT DOG? A: YEAH, SOMETIMES. Q: HOW OFTEN WOULD YOU SEE IT AT ROCKINGHAM? A: HUM, NOT VERY OFTEN, BUT IT WAS THERE, BUT MORE AT THE BUNDY WITH SYDNEY AND JUSTIN. Q: UH-HUH. A: SO I CAN'T -- IT IS HARD TO PUT A TIME FRAME -- I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW MUCH DIFFERENCE IN TIME WOULD BE. Q: BUT YOU SAW IT AT ROCKINGHAM AND IT -- A: IT HAD BEEN AT ROCKINGHAM SOMETIMES. Q: WITH THE CHILDREN? A: YES. THE CHILDREN PLAY AND SOMETIMES IT WAS THERE WHEN THE CHILDREN WEREN'T THERE, TOO. Q: AND THAT DOG, WHEN THE CHILDREN SPENT THE NIGHT AT ROCKINGHAM, DID IT SPEND THE NIGHT ALSO? A: YEAH. I WOULD SAY SOMETIMES, YEAH. Q: ALL RIGHT. THAT KNAPSACK THAT YOU INDICATED YOU SAW THAT YOU THOUGHT WAS BLACK -- A: BLACK -- I THOUGHT I REMEMBER SEEING LIKE A LITTLE BROWN LEATHER PATCH. Q: OKAY. WAS THAT BAG -- THAT KNAPSACK, WAS IT IN A LIT AREA, BRIGHTLY LIT, OR WAS IT IN A DARK AREA? A: IT WAS -- I THINK IT WAS NEAR ONE OF THE DIMMER LIGHTS I THOUGHT, BUT IT WAS STILL IN A DARK AREA. IT WAS DARK ON THAT -- IT WAS AT NIGHTTIME, SO -- Q: OKAY. A: BUT IT WAS A DARK COLOR. Q: NOW, WHEN YOU FIRST CAME OUT THAT PATHWAY FOR THE FIRST TIME WHEN YOU LEFT YOUR ROOM FOR THE FIRST TIME TO GO AND INVESTIGATE THE SOURCE OF THE THUMPS -- A: YES. Q: -- CAME OUT ON THE ASHFORD SIDE LAWN, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? A: THE FIRST TIME COMING OUT OF THE ROOM AND GETTING TO -- MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT. THIS IS ASKED AND ANSWERED FOR THE THIRD TIME. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: THE FIRST TIME COMING THROUGH ASHFORD AND THEN SEEING THE LIMO? Q: BY MS. CLARK: UH-HUH. A: WHAT WAS I THINKING AS FAR AS THE NOISE? Q: RIGHT. A: I THOUGHT IT COULD BE SOMEONE. Q: OKAY. AND WERE YOU -- WAS YOUR MIND OCCUPIED WITH THAT? A: YES. Q: WERE YOU LOOKING -- WERE YOU LOOKING DOWN THE DRIVEWAY AREA WHEN YOU SAW THE LIMO? DID YOU LOOK DOWN THE DRIVEWAY AREA? A: I PROBABLY DID. Q: CONSTANTLY OR DID YOU AT SOME POINT LOOK AT THE LIMO? DID YOU LOOK AROUND YOU? A: OH, YEAH, I LOOKED AROUND. THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, MISS CLARK. ARE WE GOING TO NEED THIS DIAGRAM AGAIN? MR. COCHRAN: WE CAN'T SEE THE JURY. THE COURT: I HEARD THE COMMENT AND I HEARD THE OTHER COMMENTS AS WELL. ALL RIGHT. WHY DON'T WE MOVE THAT. UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO NEED IT, IT IS BLOCKING COUNSEL'S VIEW OF THE JURY. I THINK YOU CAN LEAVE THAT THERE. (BRIEF PAUSE.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO THE CAR AFTER GOING OUT THE SECOND TIME TO THE SOUTH PATHWAY, YOU SAID YOU WENT BACK TOWARD THE LIMO? A: SAY THAT -- THE QUESTION AGAIN. Q: AFTER YOU LET THE LIMO DRIVER INTO THE PROPERTY, YOU HAD CONVERSATION WITH HIM, YOU INDICATED YOU WENT BACK AROUND THE GARAGE TO THE SOUTH PATHWAY AGAIN? A: YES. Q: AND YOU STOPPED THREE FEET BEFORE THE SECOND GATE? A: ABOUT, YES. Q: DO YOU RECALL THAT? A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q: THEN YOU SAID YOU WALKED BACK OUT AROUND THE GARAGE, YOU SAW THAT DARK KNAPSACK, THEN WHAT DID YOU DO? A: UMM, WELL, THERE IS THREE OF US OUTSIDE NOW SO I -- Q: YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT? A: OKAY. WELL, THREE OF US, YES; O.J., MYSELF AND THE DRIVER. Q: WHERE WAS HE? A: JUST LIKE OUTSIDE ON THE DRIVEWAY. Q: OKAY. A: AND I THINK THE DOOR WAS OPENED. I DON'T -- THE FRONT DOOR I THOUGHT WAS OPENED. I DON'T -- Q: OKAY. DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE DEFENDANT WHEN YOU SAW HIM THERE? A: YES. Q: WHAT DID YOU SAY? A: WELL, I WAS TELLING HIM ABOUT THIS NOISE I HEARD. I SAID, "O.J., I HEARD THIS NOISE AND I THOUGHT IT WAS AN EARTHQUAKE AND I THOUGHT MAYBE SOMEONE IS BACK THERE" AND I TOLD HIM I WAS GOING TO INVESTIGATE IT AND I HAD A LOUSY FLASHLIGHT. Q: OKAY. AND THEN WHAT? A: AND SO I ASKED THE LIMO DRIVER, I SAID, "DO YOU HAVE A BETTER FLASHLIGHT?" AND HE CHECKED AND HE LOOKED AROUND AND HE DIDN'T. AND THEN I SAID, "O.J., DO WE HAVE A BETTER FLASHLIGHT?" AND, UMM, WHEN I TOLD HIM ABOUT THE NOISE, HE WAS GOING TO TAKE ONE WAY, I WAS GOING TO GO ANOTHER WAY, BUT THAT IS WHEN I SAID, "WE HAVE THIS LOUSY FLASHLIGHT, WE NEED ANOTHER ONE" AND SO HE WAS GOING TO GO INSIDE AND CHECK. Q: AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: OKAY. SO HE WENT INSIDE THE HOUSE, I FOLLOWED BEHIND, AND WE GOT TOWARDS THE KITCHEN AREA AND I WAS KIND OF IN THE FRONT DOOR ENTRANCE BEHIND HIM, BUT NOT YET IN THE KITCHEN, AND IT WAS -- I DIDN'T LOOK, BUT HE SAID, "IS IT THAT LATE?" HE SAID WE DIDN'T HAVE TIME AND WE DIDN'T GET THE FLASHLIGHT SO HE HAD TO CATCH THE FLIGHT. Q: OKAY. NOW, AT SOME POINT AFTER YOU CAME BACK FROM YOUR SECOND TRIP TO THE SOUTH PATHWAY, AFTER THAT POINT, DID YOU HELP TO LOAD BAGS INTO THE CAR? A: YEAH. I PUT THE GOLF BAG IN ALREADY AND I WAS GOING TO GO GET THE KNAPSACK TO PUT IN. Q: YOU SAID THE KNAPSACK. IS THAT THE DARK KNAPSACK THAT YOU SAW ON THE DRIVEWAY AREA WHERE YOU INDICATED THE RED DOT BEHIND THE ROLLS ROYCE? A: YES. Q: DID YOU SAY SOMETHING TO MR. SIMPSON ABOUT THAT DARK KNAPSACK? A: THAT I WAS GOING TO GET IT. Q: YOU OFFERED TO GET IT? A: YEAH. Q: AND WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE? A: HE WILL GET IT. Q: WHAT DID HE SAY? A: "I'LL GET IT." Q: AND THEN WHAT DID HE DO? A: I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION. I THINK HE GOT IT. Q: DID HE WALK IN THAT DIRECTION? A: YES. Q: IN THE DIRECTION OF WHERE THE KNAPSACK WAS? A: YES. Q: ALL RIGHT. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q: AFTER YOU OFFERED TO GET THE KNAPSACK, HE REFUSED, WALKED TOWARDS IT, WHAT DID YOU DO? MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THAT. ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE. THE COURT: REPHRASE THE QUESTION, PLEASE. MR. SHAPIRO: ASK THE JURY TO DISREGARD. THE COURT: ASK THE QUESTION AGAIN. Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT WALK TOWARD THE KNAPSACK. WHAT DID YOU DO? A: OKAY. I WAS STILL CONCERNED ABOUT A FLASHLIGHT AND I THINK THAT IS WHEN THE CONVERSATION OF THE FLASHLIGHT CAME IN AND THE LIMO DRIVER WAS LOOKING AND I WAS SEEING IF HE IS FINDING A FLASHLIGHT. Q: THEN WHAT? A: OKAY. AND THEN THAT IS WHEN I WAS GOING TO HAVE MYSELF AND O.J. LOOK BEHIND THERE AND THEN HE HAD TO CATCH HIS FLIGHT, SO I MENTIONED ABOUT THE KITCHEN. Q: DID YOU AT SOME POINT WALK INTO THE HOUSE WITH THE DEFENDANT? A: YES. Q: AND AT WHAT POINT WAS THAT? A: RIGHT BEFORE LEAVING. Q: AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE DID YOU WALK INTO THE HOUSE WITH HIM? A: BECAUSE WE WERE IN SEARCH OF A FLASHLIGHT. Q: WHERE DID YOU GO INSIDE THE HOUSE? A: I WALKED IN THE FRONT ENTRANCE, AND WHEN YOU WALK IN ABOUT FIVE FEET OR SO, YOU CAN MAKE A RIGHT AND GO INTO THE KITCHEN, SO I GOT IN AS FAR AS LIKE A FOOT MAYBE IN THE KITCHEN, HE WAS IN THE KITCHEN, AND -- Q: YOU WERE IN THE KITCHEN AND WHERE WAS THE DEFENDANT? A: WELL, I WAS KIND OF IN THE HALLWAY STILL, KITCHEN, AND HE WAS ABOUT SIX OR SEVEN FEET IN FRONT. Q: HE WAS INSIDE THE KITCHEN? A: YES. Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: HE NOTICED THE TIME AND HAD TO CATCH THE FLIGHT. Q: WHAT DID HE SAY? A: IS THAT THE TIME? I SAID, "YOU GOT TO CATCH YOUR FLIGHT." Q: AND THEN WHAT? A: HE GOT IN THE LIMO. I MEAN, WENT BACK OUT OF THE KITCHEN, BACK, AND HE WAS GOING TO HOP IN THE LIMO TO THE AIRPORT. Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU WALKED INTO THE HOUSE WITH HIM, DID YOU WALK THROUGH THE FOYER AREA? A: INTO THE FOYER, YES. THAT IS WHERE I STAYED MAYBE -- I WASN'T IN THE KITCHEN AREA. YOU KNOW THE AREA, IT IS THERE. AND I STOPPED AND THEN HE TURNED AROUND BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE TIME AND HE HAD TO CATCH THE FLIGHT. Q: DID YOU PAUSE AND TALK TO HIM IN THE FOYER AREA FOR A MOMENT? A: YES. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WHEN YOU PAUSED AND TALKED TO HIM IN THE FOYER AREA OF THE HOUSE, WHAT WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT? A: HE WAS LEAVING AND IT WAS -- THERE IS AN ALARM AND HE WAS ASKING ME TO SET THE ALARM. Q: HAD HE EVER ASKED YOU TO SET THE ALARM FOR HIM BEFORE? A: NO. Q: DID YOU KNOW THE CODE TO SET THE ALARM? A: NO. Q: DID YOU WANT TO SET THE ALARM? A: NO. Q: WHY NOT? A: JUST ANOTHER RESPONSIBILITY THAT I DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW THE ALARM CODE. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU SAY WHEN HE ASKED YOU TO SET THE ALARM? A: "I DON'T KNOW THE CODE." Q: AND WHAT WAS THE DEFENDANT'S RESPONSE? A: UMM, I DON'T -- I THINK HE WAS GOING TO SET IT, THAT HE WAS GOING TO SET THE ALARM. Q: DID HE TELL YOU THAT OR -- A: YEAH, I THINK IT WAS THAT HE WOULD SET IT. IT WAS KIND OF AN UNDERSTANDING, BECAUSE I DIDN'T GET THE CODE, BUT I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION AS FAR AS IF HE SET IT OR NOT. Q: AND YOU HAD THAT CONVERSATION WHILE YOU WERE STANDING WITH HIM IN THE FOYER? A: IN THE FOYER AREA, YES. Q: DID YOU HAPPEN TO NOTICE WHETHER HIS -- HE HAD ANY INJURY TO EITHER HAND AT THAT TIME? A: I DIDN'T NOTICE, NO. Q: YOU DID NOT NOTICE? A: DID NOT. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: PEOPLE'S 112, YOUR HONOR. Q: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 112, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE THAT LOCATION? A: THAT IS THE FOYER. Q: THAT IS THE AREA WHERE YOU STOOD AND TALKED TO HIM ABOUT THE ALARM CONTROL? A: YES. Q: DID YOU NOT NOTICE ANY INJURY TO HIS HAND? A: I DID NOT. MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. I THINK IT IS CONFUSING BASED ON HIS PRIOR ANSWER. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: AFTER YOU HAD THE CONVERSATION ABOUT THE ALARM CONTROL PANEL, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: UMM, HE GOT IN THE LIMO TO CATCH THE FLIGHT. Q: APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN HE DID THAT? A: I THOUGHT IT WAS LIKE 11:15. Q: CAN YOU, SIR, ESTIMATE FOR US ABOUT HOW MUCH TIME YOU SPENT WITH THE DEFENDANT AFTER THE LIMO DRIVER ARRIVED? A: AFTER THE LIMO DRIVER ARRIVED? WHEN I FIRST SAW HIM? Q: RIGHT. FROM THE TIME YOU FIRST SAW HIM TO THE TIME HE LEFT FOR THE AIRPORT? A: I THINK IT WAS ABOUT FIVE MINUTES. Q: AND THROUGH WHICH GATE DID THE LIMO DRIVER EXIT? A: ROCKINGHAM. Q: AND HOW DID HE GET OUT? A: THERE IS A BUTTON. I PRESSED IT FOR HIM AND IT OPENS THE GATE. Q: IS THAT -- WHERE IS THAT BUTTON LOCATED, SIR? A: IT WOULD BE -- IT IS ON THE DRIVEWAY. TO THE LEFT THERE IS A BUTTON THAT YOU CAN PRESS. I MEAN, I CAN SHOW YOU. Q: ON THE DIAGRAM? A: I CAN JUST POINT IT RIGHT HERE FROM HERE. Q: OKAY. I WILL HOLD IT UP AND YOU DO THAT. A: THERE IS -- OH, IT IS RIGHT THERE, (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS POINTING TO THE LOCATION THAT IS DESIGNATED ON THE DIAGRAM AS "GATE CONTROL BOX" ON THE ROCKINGHAM GATE SIDE. THE COURT: YES. Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, WHEN THAT GATE CLOSES, DOES IT LOCK AUTOMATICALLY? A: I'M PRETTY SURE IT LOCKS, YES. Q: I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ROCKINGHAM GATE. A: YES. Q: HOW DID YOU GET IN FROM THE OUTSIDE? A: OF THE ROCKINGHAM GATE? Q: YES. A: YOU CAN USE A KEY. Q: AND DID YOU HAVE THAT KEY? A: YES. Q: AS FOR THE ASHFORD GATE, CAN YOU TELL US HOW THAT GATE OPERATED? A: THERE IS AN INTERCOM THAT CAN BE BUZZED IN FROM INSIDE, AND THERE IS ALSO A HINGE THAT YOU CAN OPEN IT UP AUTOMATICALLY BY -- YOU KNOW, IF YOU ADJUST THE HINGE THE RIGHT WAY, YOU CAN PUSH IT OPEN AND GET IN. Q: CAN YOU GET IN THROUGH THE ASHFORD STREET SIDE WITHOUT A KEY? A: YES. Q: CAN YOU GET IN THROUGH THE ASHFORD STREET GATE WITHOUT SOMEBODY BUZZING YOU IN? A: YES. Q: ALL RIGHT. AFTER THE DEFENDANT LEFT IN THE LIMO, WHAT DID YOU DO? I THINK YOU INDICATED YOU PUSHED -- DID YOU PUSH THE BUTTON ON THE GATE TO CLOSE IT? A: THE GATE CONTROL. Q: ON THE ROCKINGHAM GATE? A: YES. Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: SO THE GATE OPENED, WAVED GOOD-BYE AND THEN THEY DROVE OFF AND THEN I STARTED GOING BACK TOWARDS MY ROOM, AND THEN I SAW THE RED LIGHT OR IT WAS A GREEN LIGHT ON THE ALARM, THAT IT WASN'T SET. Q: WHERE DID YOU SEE THAT? A: THERE IS AN ALARM BOX WHERE YOU SET THE CODE. Q: WHERE? A: IN THE FRONT DOOR -- BY THE FRONT DOOR. Q: OUTSIDE? A: OUTSIDE. Q: NEXT TO THE FRONT DOOR, ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE FRONT DOOR? A: TO THE LEFT. Q: AND THAT LIGHT WAS GREEN. WHAT DID THAT MEAN TO YOU? A: THAT IT WAS OPENED. Q: THAT THE ALARM WAS NOT ON? A: YES. Q: WHAT DID YOU DO ABOUT THAT? A: NOTHING. I WENT BACK TO MY ROOM. Q: HOW DID YOU GO BACK TO YOUR ROOM? DID YOU GO THROUGH THE HOUSE? A: NO. I WENT TO THE PATHWAY, SAME WAY THAT I CAME OUT FROM. Q: WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST GO THROUGH THE HOUSE? A: I DIDN'T KNOW IF IT WAS LOCKED OR NOT. I KNOW THAT THE -- THAT IT WAS A GREEN LIGHT, AND I IMAGINE THAT MEANT THE ALARM WASN'T ON, BUT I JUST WENT BACK TO MY ROOM. Q: OKAY. THAT FRONT DOOR, IS THAT NORMALLY KEPT LOCKED? A: YES. Q: TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WHO HAS A KEY TO THAT FRONT DOOR? A: I THINK IT IS O.J., ARNELLE AND THE HOUSEKEEPER, GIGI, PROBABLY HAD A KEY. Q: DID YOU HAVE A KEY? A: NO. THE COURT: IS THIS A GOOD POINT, MISS CLARK? MS. CLARK: (NODS HEAD UP AND DOWN.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS FOR THE MORNING SESSION. PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITIONS TO YOU. DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONG YOURSELVES, DON'T FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, DON'T CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU. ALSO, DO NOT ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU WITH REGARD TO THE CASE. MR. KAELIN, YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU ARE ORDERED TO RETURN PROMPTLY AT 1:30. ALL RIGHT. WE WILL STAND IN RECESS UNTIL 1:30. (AT 12:00 P.M. THE NOON RECESS WAS TAKEN UNTIL 1:30 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.) LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, MARCH 22, 1995 1:35 P.M. DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE APPEARANCES: (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.) (JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, COUNSEL. BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. MISS CLARK, MR. SHAPIRO. MR. SHAPIRO: SHE WAS JUST HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH MR. KAELIN. THE COURT: NOTED. MS. CLARK: I WOULD NOTE THERE'S NOTHING MR. KAELIN HAS TOLD ME THAT MR. SHAPIRO HASN'T HEARD ON HIS OWN. THE COURT: ENOUGH OF THAT, COUNSEL. ANYTHING WE NEED TO DISCUSS BEFORE WE INVITE THE JURORS? ALL RIGHT. DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. PLEASE BE SEATED. GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. THE JURY: GOOD AFTERNOON. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT THE JURY HAS NOW REJOINED US, THAT MR. BRIAN KAELIN IS AGAIN ON THE WITNESS STAND UNDER DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MISS CLARK. BRIAN KATO KAELIN, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE LUNCH RECESS, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS: THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. KAELIN. THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON. THE COURT: YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH, SIR. MISS CLARK, YOU MAY RESUME WITH YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. GOOD AFTERNOON. DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MS. CLARK: Q: I THINK WHERE WE LEFT OFF, MR. KAELIN, IS THAT THE DEFENDANT LEFT IN A LIMOUSINE AT ABOUT 11:15 AND YOU INDICATED THAT YOU WENT BACK TO YOUR ROOM; IS THAT RIGHT? A: YES. Q: AND WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO YOUR ROOM, SIR, WHAT DID YOU DO? A: OKAY. I FOLLOWED THE PATH TO MY ROOM. I WENT IN -- I WAS IN MY ROOM AND I RETURNED MY CALL TO RACHEL. Q: OKAY. WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU RETURNED YOUR CALL TO RACHEL? A: WELL, BECAUSE I HAD SAID I WAS GOING TO CALL HER BACK. I WAS GOING TO GO OUTSIDE. I SAID, "I'LL CALL YOU BACK WITHIN 10 MINUTES," I SAID. Q: WHEN YOU -- WHEN YOU TOLD HER THAT, THAT WAS -- YOU HAD TOLD HER YOU WERE GOING TO CALL HER BACK WITHIN 10 MINUTES, THAT'S WHEN YOU HAD HEARD THE THUMPS? A: YES. Q: DID YOU TELL HER WHAT TO DO IF YOU DID NOT CALL HER BACK WITHIN 10 MINUTES? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. LEADING. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT ELSE DID YOU SAY ABOUT CALLING BACK AFTER 10 MINUTES? A: I MADE A COMMENT LIKE, "START TO WORRY," JUST JOKING COMMENT. Q: WERE YOU JOKING? A: WELL, IT WAS A NERVOUS JOKE. Q: OKAY. AND WHEN YOU TOLD HER THAT -- SO AFTER THE DEFENDANT LEFT FOR THE AIRPORT, WERE YOU IN A HURRY TO CALL HER BACK? A: YES. Q: AND WHY IS THAT? A: WELL, BECAUSE I KNOW THAT MY LAST DIALOGUE WITH HER WAS THAT I WAS GOING TO CALL HER. SO I KNOW SHE WAS PROBABLY WONDERING WHY I HAVEN'T CALLED HER. SO I CALLED HER RIGHT AWAY. Q: OKAY. HAD YOU TOLD HER WHAT TO DO IF YOU DIDN'T CALL HER BACK IN 10 MINUTES BESIDES START WORRYING? A: NO. MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED. THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION. Q: BY MS. CLARK: HAD YOU TOLD HER -- OTHER THAN TO START WORRYING IF YOU DIDN'T CALL BACK WITHIN 10 MINUTES, DID YOU TELL HER TO DO ANYTHING IF YOU DIDN'T CALL BACK? A: NO. Q: DO YOU RECALL TESTIFYING AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING IN THIS MATTER? A: TO THE LAST QUESTION OR TO STATEMENTS? Q: DO YOU RECALL TESTIFYING CONCERNING WHAT YOU TOLD RACHEL TO DO IF YOU DID NOT CALL BACK WITHIN 10 MINUTES? A: NO, I DON'T REMEMBER. MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR? (BRIEF PAUSE.) MS. CLARK: DIRECT COURT AND COUNSEL TO PAGE 70 OF THE GRAND JURY TRANSCRIPT AND PAGE 106 OF THE PRELIMINARY HEARING. EXCUSE ME ONE MOMENT. AND -- Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. DO YOU RECALL TESTIFYING AT THE PRELIMINARY HEARING AND BEFORE THE GRAND JURY IN THIS MATTER, SIR? A: YES. Q: TO WHAT YOU'VE BEEN TESTIFYING TO BEFORE THIS JURY? A: YES. Q: SAME SUBJECT MATTER; IS THAT RIGHT? A: YES. Q: AND DO YOU RECALL TESTIFYING TO YOUR STATE OF MIND AT THE TIME THAT YOU TOLD RACHEL FERRARA TO START WORRYING IF SHE DOESN'T HEAR FROM YOU IN 10 MINUTES? A: YES, I SAID THAT. Q: AND DO YOU RECALL WHAT YOU SAID YOUR STATE OF MIND WAS AT THAT TIME? A: UH, SCARED. YES. Q: AND WHAT ELSE? A: UMM, I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: DO YOU RECALL TESTIFYING THAT YOU WERE WORRIED? A: OH, SCARED AND WORRIED. OKAY. Q: AND WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO CALL RACHEL FERRARA, APPROXIMATELY HOW LONG HAD IT BEEN SINCE YOU HUNG UP THE PHONE WITH HER TO GO AND INVESTIGATE THE SOUTH PATHWAY WHEN YOU CALLED HER BACK AFTER THE DEFENDANT LEFT FOR THE AIRPORT? A: I GUESS IT WOULD BE ABOUT 20 TO 25 MINUTES. Q: SO CAN YOU ESTIMATE FOR US WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU FINALLY CALLED HER BACK? A: HAD TO BE ABOUT 11:15, 11:20. Q: ALL RIGHT. AND DID SOMETHING INTERRUPT THE PHONE CALL WITH RACHEL? A: YES. DURING THE PHONE CALL -- Q: WHAT HAPPENED? A: -- A CALL WAITING BEEPED. Q: YOU HAVE CALL WAITING ON YOUR PHONE? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ON THE PHONE AND ANOTHER CALL COMES IN? A: IT MAKES A BEEP, A NOISE. Q: OKAY. AND THAT OCCURRED ABOUT WHAT TIME? A: AT ABOUT 11:40 I THOUGHT. Q: AND WHO WAS ON THE OTHER LINE? A: UMM, O.J. Q: AND WHAT DID HE SAY TO YOU? A: THAT HE FORGOT TO ALARM THE HOUSE, THAT I SHOULD ALARM IT. Q: AND DID YOU -- HAD YOU EVER DONE THAT BEFORE? A: NO. Q: SO WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN HE ASKED YOU TO ALARM THE HOUSE? A: WELL, HE TOLD ME A CODE AND HE SAID THERE'S BUTTONS THAT YOU PRESS. SO I WROTE DOWN THE CODE AND THEN I WENT -- I TOLD RACHEL AFTER I HUNG UP, I SAID I HAVE TO GO AND ALARM THE HOUSE. Q: SO YOU TOLD THE DEFENDANT AFTER HE GAVE YOU THE CODE THAT YOU WOULD GO AND DO IT? A: YES. MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT -- Q: BY MS. CLARK: THEN WHAT HAPPENED -- THE COURT: HOLD ON. MR. SHAPIRO: -- OBJECT TO REPEATING THE SAME ANSWER. MS. CLARK: IS THAT A LEGAL OBJECTION? THE COURT: YES. IT'S NOT A QUESTION. MS. CLARK: IT'S FOUNDATIONAL TO THE QUESTION. THE COURT: PROCEED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU HUNG UP WITH RACHEL AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO? A: OKAY. WHEN I HUNG UP ON O.J. ON CALL WAITING AND I HUNG UP ON RACHEL AND SAID I WOULD BE BACK, I WENT TO ALARM THE HOUSE. Q: AND WHERE DID YOU GO TO DO THAT? A: I HAD TO GO TAKE THE PATH AGAIN TO THE FRONT DOOR. TO THE LEFT OF THE FRONT DOOR IS A PAD WITH BUTTONS, AND I PRESSED THE ALARM. Q: OKAY. AND THAT PATH THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, SIR, IS THAT -- WHERE DOES THAT RUN ALONG? WHAT STREET DOES THAT -- A: YOU PASS ASHFORD. IT'S THAT SAME -- THE PATH I'D BEEN TAKING. Q: AND THE CONTROL PAD WAS OUTSIDE THE FRONT DOOR? A: OUTSIDE THE FRONT DOOR. Q: AND YOU SET THE ALARM AT THAT TIME THEN? A: YES, I DID. Q: DID YOU NOTICE ANY DIFFERENCE IN THE LIGHT? YOU EARLIER INDICATED YOU SAW THAT THE ALARM LIGHT WAS GREEN. AFTER YOU SET IT, WHAT COLOR WAS IT? A: AFTER YOU SET IT, HE SAID TO WAIT A FEW SECONDS, AND THEN IT GOES RED. AND I WAITED UNTIL IT WAS RED. AND WHEN I WAS FINISHED WITH THAT, I WENT RIGHT BACK TO THE ROOM. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO THE ROOM? A: I CALLED RACHEL BACK. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU TALK TO WITH HER ABOUT THAT TIME? A: I JUST SAID THAT THAT WAS O.J. ON THE CALL WAITING, THAT I ALARMED THE HOUSE AND I JUST SAID, YOU KNOW, THE THUMPING, I WAS JUST GOING, GOD, THIS IS WEIRD. Q: AND YOU TALKED AGAIN ABOUT THE NOISES, THE THUMPS THAT YOU HEARD ABOUT 10:40, 10:45? A: YES, BECAUSE I NEVER WENT BACK. Q: SO YOU WERE -- WERE YOU STILL WORRIED ABOUT THOSE NOISES? A: YES. Q: WERE YOU STILL WORRIED THAT THERE MIGHT BE SOMEBODY BACK THERE? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. LEADING. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WERE YOU WORRIED ABOUT? A: WELL, I DON'T KNOW ABOUT BACK, BUT THERE WAS A NOISE THAT SOMEONE MIGHT BE AROUND. Q: UH-HUH. SOMEWHERE? A: SOMEWHERE. Q: NEAR THE HOUSE? A: SOMEWHERE ON THE PROPERTY. Q: HOW LONG DID YOU STAY ON THE PHONE WITH RACHEL AT THIS POINT? A: OH, AFTER THE -- AFTER I CALLED HER BACK AGAIN? Q: RIGHT. AFTER YOU SET THE ALARM, CALLED HER -- A: BOY, I THINK I STAYED ON -- I STAYED ON PROBABLY HOUR, HOUR AND A HALF. Q: OKAY. A: IT WAS PRETTY LONG. Q: SO WERE YOU STILL ON THE PHONE WITH HER AT MIDNIGHT? A: YES, I THINK I WAS. Q: DO YOU RECALL HEARING ANY VOICES ON THE PROPERTY AROUND MIDNIGHT? A: NO. Q: OR ANY OTHER SOUNDS LIKE THOSE THUMPING SOUNDS? A: NO. Q: OR ANY FOOTSTEPS? A: NO. Q: WERE YOU STILL ON THE PHONE WITH HER AT 12:30? A: I BELIEVE SO. Q: DID YOU HEAR CHACHI BARKING? A: NO. Q: AT ANY POINT THAT NIGHT, DID YOU HEAR CHACHI BARK? A: NO. Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THE WEATHER WAS LIKE THAT NIGHT? A: IT WAS LIKE 65 DEGREES. IT WAS SORT OF COOL AND IT WAS A LITTLE MIST, NOT -- SEMI FOG. Q: SEMI FOG? A: I -- WASN'T, YOU KNOW, A DENSE FOG OR ANYTHING. IT JUST SEEMED LIKE IT WAS JUST A LITTLE BIT CLOUDY. THE -- IT WASN'T A CLEAR NIGHT. Q: UH-HUH. WAS IT A LITTLE BIT MISTY? A: YEAH. A LITTLE MISTY. Q: SO WERE YOU HOT OR SWEATING THAT NIGHT? A: NO. Q: WHEN YOU WENT OUT WITH MR. SIMPSON TO MC DONALD'S FOR FOOD, WAS HE HOT OR SWEATY? A: AS BEST I COULD TELL, NO. Q: ALL RIGHT. ABOUT WHAT TIME DID YOU END YOUR PHONE CALL WITH RACHEL? A: I THINK ABOUT 1:00 A.M. Q: AND ABOUT WHAT TIME DID YOU GO TO SLEEP? A: I WENT TO TURN THE LIGHT OFF ABOUT 1:30 A.M. Q: OKAY. HOW DID YOU SLEEP THAT NIGHT? A: IT WAS TOSS AND TURNING. NOT -- NOT A GOOD SLEEP. Q: AND WHY WAS THAT? A: I GUESS I -- I WAS WORRIED. I JUST WASN'T SLEEPING WELL. YOU KNOW, I HAD THOUGHTS IN MY HEAD THAT IT WASN'T -- YOU KNOW, I STILL HAD THOUGHTS OF THE NIGHT, THE NOISE, AND I JUST WASN'T SLEEPING. Q: YOU HAD THOUGHTS OF THE NOISE, YOU MEAN THE THUMPS? A: THE THUMPS. Q: WAS THE -- DID YOU HEAR ANY NOISES THAT DISTURBED YOUR SLEEP? A: NO. Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THE -- WHEN THE -- WHEN THE BUZZER AT -- AT THE ASHFORD GATE IS PRESSED TO BE OPENED -- A: YES. Q: -- SOMEBODY IS STANDING OUTSIDE THE GATE, WANTS TO GET IN, THEY PUSH THAT BUTTON, WHAT SOUND DOES IT MAKE INSIDE THE HOUSE? A: THE PHONES RING. Q: IT'S A PHONE RINGING? A: A PHONE THAT RINGS, YES. Q: DO YOU RECALL HEARING THAT SOUND OF THAT PHONE -- OF THE PHONE RINGING IN THE MAIN HOUSE AFTER YOU WENT TO SLEEP THAT NIGHT? A: YES. Q: CAN YOU EXPLAIN -- CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT YOU HEARD? A: DURING THE NIGHT, I DIDN'T KNOW THE TIME, I WAS TOSSING -- I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS REAL, BUT IT WAS -- WAS A CONSTANT RING, THE PHONE WAS RINGING AND RINGING. AND IT'S -- IT HAS A DIFFERENT RING TO IT WHEN THE -- IT'S A BUSINESS PHONE. AND IT WAS RINGING AND RINGING AND I WAS JUST GOING, OH, MY GOD, WHO'S CALLING, AND IT WAS JUST -- IT CONTINUALLY JUST RINGING AND RINGING. Q: UH-HUH. AND THIS WAS AFTER YOU HAD GONE TO SLEEP AT 1:30? A: YES. Q: DO YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU HEARD THAT? A: I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT TIME, BUT I WOULD GUESS 3:30 OR 4:00 POSSIBLY. Q: OR 5:00, 6:00? DO YOU KNOW? A: NO, I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT TIME. Q: OKAY. DID YOU LOOK AT YOUR CLOCK OR ANYTHING WHEN YOU HEARD THE RINGING? A: NO. Q: YOU STAYED IN BED? A: YES. Q: YOU KEPT YOUR EYES CLOSED? A: YEAH. IT WAS -- IT WAS THE RINGING IN MY HEAD AND I WAS TRYING TO SLEEP. I DIDN'T -- I THOUGHT IT WAS MAYBE A DREAM, BUT IT WAS JUST RINGING AND RINGING. Q: NOW, AT SOME POINT, WERE YOU AWAKEN? A: YES. Q: BY WHAT? A: THERE WAS A KNOCKING -- BANGING AT THE DOOR. Q: AND WHO WAS AT THE DOOR? A: UH, FOUR DETECTIVES. Q: AND DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN THOSE FOUR DETECTIVES KNOCKED ON YOUR DOOR OR CAME TO YOUR DOOR? A: I THOUGHT IT WAS BETWEEN 5:00 AND 6:00 A.M. Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THOSE OFFICERS WERE DRESSED IN, HOW DID THEY APPEAR? A: SUIT COAT AND TIE. Q: ALL OF THEM? A: YES. Q: DO YOU RECALL WHAT EXACTLY -- WHICH ONES WERE WEARING -- IF THEY WERE ALL WEARING COATS OR WHETHER SOME WERE NOT? MR. SHAPIRO: ASKED AND ANSWERED. THE COURT: OVERRULED. IT'S LEADING IS WHAT IT IS. LEADING. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECALL WHETHER -- WHETHER OR NOT ALL OF THEM WERE WEARING COATS? A: I THINK THEY ALL WERE WEARING SUIT COATS. Q: ARE YOU SURE? A: NO. I'M NOT A HUNDRED PERCENT SURE, BUT I THOUGHT THEY WERE WEARING COATS. Q: WERE THEY ALL WEARING TIES? A: I THINK SO. I'M PRETTY SURE THEY WERE WEARING TIES, YES. Q: DID THEY ASK SOMETHING OF YOU WHEN YOU OPENED THE DOOR? A: THEY SAID, "POLICE." Q: AND DID THEY ASK YOU ANY QUESTIONS? A: AFTER I OPENED THE DOOR? Q: YES. A: YES. Q: WHAT WAS THAT? A: IT WAS, "WHO ARE YOU," UH, "DO YOU LIVE HERE, WHO ELSE LIVES HERE," UH, DO I OWN A CAR OR A TRUCK, UH -- Q: DID THEY ASK WHAT YOUR NAME IS? A: YES. THEY ASKED MY NAME. Q: NOW, WHAT WAS -- WHAT WAS YOUR CONDITION AT THE TIME -- MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I DON'T THINK HE IS FINISHED WITH HIS ANSWER. THE COURT: I'M SORRY. MR. KAELIN, HAVE YOU FINISHED TELLING US WHAT THEY ASKED YOU? THE WITNESS: I'M GOING IN MY HEAD WHAT ELSE WAS ASKED OF ME IN THE BEGINNING. BUT, UMM, YEAH, THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF WHAT THEY -- THEY ASKED ME. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WAS YOUR STATE OF MIND OR YOUR CONDITION AT THE TIME -- AT THE TIME THAT THOSE OFFICERS KNOCKED ON YOUR DOOR? A: WELL, I WAS SHOOKEN UP. THERE WAS FOUR STRANGERS AT MY DOOR AND I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON. SO I WAS VERY STARTLED. Q: OKAY. DID YOU FEEL -- CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER YOU FELT DISORIENTED OR CONFUSED? A: OH, YES. Q: DID YOU EXPECT TO SEE OFFICERS AT YOUR DOOR BETWEEN 5:00 AND 6:00 IN THE MORNING? A: NO. Q: NOW, DO YOU RECALL HOW MANY OFFICERS THERE WERE AT YOUR DOOR? A: FOUR. Q: ALL RIGHT. AND WHO WAS THE ONE SPEAKING TO YOU WHEN YOU FIRST OPENED THE DOOR? A: I DON'T KNOW HIS NAME. I DON'T KNOW THAT DETECTIVE'S NAME. Q: OKAY. WAS IT PHIL VANNATTER? A: NO. Q: WAS IT TOM LANGE? A: NO. Q: WAS IT MARK FUHRMAN? A: NO. Q: WAS IT RON PHILLIPS? A: IF -- IF THAT WAS THE FOURTH DETECTIVE, YES. Q: OKAY. BUT YOU KNOW WHO PHIL VANNATTER IS, RIGHT? A: YES. Q: YOU KNOW WHO TOM LANGE IS? A: YES. Q: YOU KNOW WHO MARK FUHRMAN IS? A: YES. Q: OKAY. IT WASN'T ONE OF THOSE. A: NO. Q: IT WAS THE FOURTH GUY? A: YES. Q: WHEN THEY ASKED IF YOU LIVED THERE, WHAT DID YOU SAY? A: YES. I STAYED IN THIS -- MY -- THE GUEST HOUSE. Q: WHAT DID YOU TELL THE FOUR -- WHEN THE FOUR OFFICERS FIRST CAME TO YOUR DOOR, WHAT DID YOU TELL THEM? A: WELL, I ALSO HAD SAID, "IS EVERYTHING OKAY?" I SAID, "DID O.J.'S PLANE CRASH?" I WAS -- Q: DID YOU SAY "O.J.'S PLANE" OR DID YOU SAY "THE PLANE"? MR. SHAPIRO: HE JUST TOLD US THE ANSWER, YOUR HONOR. IT'S LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. IT'S LEADING. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECALL WHETHER YOU SAID IT WAS "O.J.'S PLANE" OR "THE PLANE"? A: I POSSIBLY COULD HAVE SAID THE PLANE CRASHED, THE PLANE CRASHED, I COULD HAVE AND I -- I THINK I DID. I WAS WORRIED ABOUT A PLANE CRASH. Q: OKAY. AND DID THEY RESPOND TO THAT? A: NO. Q: WAS THAT THE FIRST THING YOU SAID? A: IT WAS ONE OF THE VERY FIRST IF NOT THE FIRST. Q: OKAY. DID YOU TELL THEM WHO LIVED THERE? A: GOSH, I DON'T REMEMBER. I DID -- I DON'T THINK I DID. Q: OKAY. AT SOME POINT, DID YOU DIRECT THEM TO ARNELLE'S HOUSE? A: YES. Q: ARNELLE'S UNIT? AND WHY WAS THAT? A: THEY HAD ASKED WHO ELSE LIVED ON THE -- ON THE GROUNDS, AND I POINTED TO HER ROOM. Q: OKAY. DID THEY EVER ASK IF THEY COULD GET INTO THE HOUSE OR SOMEONE COULD HELP THEM WITH THAT? A: UMM, THEY ASKED IF I HAD KEYS TO THE HOUSE, IF I COULD GET INTO THE HOUSE. I SAID NO, AND THAT'S WHY I POINTED TO I BELIEVE ARNELLE. Q: AND AFTER YOU POINTED OUT ARNELLE'S UNIT, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: SO I POINTED TO ARNELLE'S UNIT AND THEY KNOCKED ON HER DOOR. I BELIEVE IT WAS TWO, TWO DETECTIVES WENT AND KNOCKED ON THE DOOR AND THEY -- THEY POUNDED ON THE DOOR FOR A WHILE, AND THEN ARNELLE CAME OUT. Q: AND YOU SAW ARNELLE COME OUT? A: YES. Q: AND WHERE WERE YOU WHEN SHE DID THAT? A: AT MY, UH, DOORWAY. Q: AND WAS SOMEONE -- WHICH OFFICERS WERE STAYING WITH YOU? A: ONE WAS DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND I DON'T KNOW THE OTHER ONE. Q: OKAY. ARE YOU SURE THERE WERE TWO DETECTIVES STAYING WITH YOU? A: NO. Q: DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN? A: YES. Q: BY THE WAY, WHEN THE OFFICERS WENT OVER TO ARNELLE'S DOOR, CAN YOU TELL US HOW LONG IT TOOK HER TO ANSWER, BEFORE SHE ANSWERED? A: BOY, THEY -- THEY POUNDED FOR A WHILE AND I GUESS -- IT SEEMED LIKE TWO MINUTES MIGHT HAVE BEEN A VERY LONG TIME FOR THE POUNDING THAT WAS GOING ON. I WOULD SAY TWO TO THREE MINUTES. Q: OKAY. AND DURING THAT TIME THAT THEY WERE KNOCKING ON HER DOOR, WHAT WERE YOU DOING? A: I WAS WONDERING WHY SHE WASN'T GETTING THE DOOR BECAUSE IT SEEMED PRETTY LOUD, AND THAT WAS IT. Q: WERE YOU TALKING TO ANYONE? A: I THINK I WAS. Q: WHO? A: I THINK IT WAS DETECTIVE FUHRMAN. Q: AND WHAT WERE YOU TELLING -- WAS HE ASKING YOU QUESTIONS AT THAT TIME? A: WE WENT IN MY ROOM AFTER ARNELLE CAME OUT. Q: OKAY. WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU AND -- YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WENT INTO YOUR ROOM? A: YES. Q: OKAY. AFTER ARNELLE CAME OUT AND YOU AND DETECTIVE WENT INTO YOUR ROOM -- DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WENT INTO YOUR ROOM, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: UMM, HE ASKED ME SOME QUESTIONS. Q: OKAY. WHAT DID HE -- BEFORE HE ASKED YOU QUESTIONS, WHAT DID HE DO IN THE ROOM? A: UMM, HE LOOKED AROUND THE ROOM. Q: OKAY. AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN, HE LOOKED AROUND THE ROOM? A: WELL, HE WAS IN MY ROOM AND I WAS KIND OF POINTING THINGS OUT IN THE ROOM. MS. CLARK: 129-B, YOUR HONOR. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU HAVE CLOSETS IN THAT ROOM? A: YES. Q: CAN YOU INDICATE WHERE ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH THOSE CLOSETS ARE? A: YEAH. IN THE -- UMM, ON THE TOP PHOTOGRAPH HERE (INDICATING). Q: OKAY. DIRECT THE LIGHT. A: IT'S STRAIGHT AGAINST -- GO STRAIGHT UP AND GO A LITTLE BIT TO YOUR RIGHT. RIGHT THERE (INDICATING). Q: OKAY. THIS DOOR IS A CLOSET? A: THERE'S DOORS THERE, CORRECT. Q: THESE TWO DOORS? A: TWO OF THEM, RIGHT. NOW, THE ONE ON THE -- ON YOUR FAR RIGHT, THAT'S MORE THE CLOTHES CLOSET, AND THE OTHER ONE HAS JUST LIKE A LITTLE LIKE STOVE IN IT, YOU COULD STORE THINGS IN, BUT IT'S MORE -- NOT A CLOSET, BUT LIKE A LITTLE STOVE'S IN THERE AND YOU CAN STACK STUFF UP ON TOP. Q: OKAY. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER THOSE CLOSET DOORS WERE OPEN OR CLOSED WHEN DETECTIVE FUHRMAN STEPPED IN YOUR ROOM THAT NIGHT OR MORNING? A: I -- I DON'T RECALL. Q: AND SO HE -- YOU SHOWED HIM AROUND THE ROOM? A: YEAH. I POINTED -- I MEAN THE CLOSET FOR ME, I PROBABLY HAD IT OPEN. BUT I SHOWED HIM THE ROOM. Q: AND HE LOOKED AROUND? A: AND HE LOOKED AROUND. Q: WHAT DID HE ASK YOU? A: HE ASKED ME, UH, WHAT I WORE LAST NIGHT, THE NIGHT BEFORE. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO? A: I SHOWED HIM. Q: AND WHERE WERE THOSE CLOTHES? A: THERE'S A CHAIR THAT I USUALLY HUNG THINGS ON. SO MY -- MY PANTS WERE THERE AND THEN I HAD, UH, BOOTS AND HE LOOKED AT THE BOOTS AND HE EXAMINED THE BOTTOM OF THE BOOTS. Q: SO HE LOOKED AT YOUR CLOTHING AND YOUR BOOTS? A: YES. Q: WHAT ELSE DID HE ASK YOU? A: HE ASKED ME, UH, WHY -- I STILL SHOWED HIM LIKE THE TYPEWRITER, WHAT I WAS DOING THAT NIGHT, AND I SHOWED HIM THE OFFICE. I SAID THIS IS THE TYPEWRITER I WAS TRYING TO TYPE YESTERDAY AND, UH, I BROUGHT UP THE NOISE, THE THUMPS THAT I HEARD TO HIM. Q: DID HE ASK YOU WHERE YOU HAD BEEN THE NIGHT BEFORE? A: NO. I DON'T -- HE ASKED ME WHAT I HAD DONE, DID THE NIGHT BEFORE, AND I TOLD HIM ABOUT TALKING TO RACHEL. Q: OKAY. AND AT ANY POINT, DO YOU RECALL DISCUSSING WITH HIM WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAD BEEN DRINKING OR DOING ANY DRUGS THE NIGHT BEFORE? A: YES. HE ASKED ME THAT AND HE GAVE ME A TEST. Q: WHAT KIND OF TEST DID HE GIVE YOU? A: FOLLOW -- I THINK IT WAS A PEN. Q: HE TOOK A PEN OUT? A: A PEN. I -- HE MIGHT HAVE HAD A LIGHT IN MY EYES, BUT HE HAD A PEN, AND I FOLLOWED IT. Q: HE -- AND HE MADE YOU FOLLOW THE PEN? A: YES. Q: WATCHING BACK AND FORTH. OKAY. CAN YOU TELL US HOW YOU LOOKED THAT NIGHT WHEN YOU GOT WOKEN UP BETWEEN 5:00 AND 6:00 A.M.? A: HOW I LOOKED THAT NIGHT? Q: UH-HUH. A: VERY TIRED. Q: HOW ABOUT YOUR EYES? A: RED. AND I MEAN THEY LOOKED -- THEY WERE VERY RED AND THEY -- JUST RED AND I THINK HE MIGHT HAVE ASSUMED THAT -- HE ASKED ME IF I WAS SMOKING MARIJUANA. Q: OKAY. HAD YOU BEEN? A: NO. Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU TOLD HIM ABOUT THE THUMPS ON THE WALL? A: YES. Q: DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT TIME YOU HEARD THOSE THUMPS? A: TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, I DON'T REMEMBER IF I TOLD HIM THE TIME ON THAT. I TOLD HIM ABOUT THE NOISE I HEARD. Q: UH-HUH. YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF YOU TOLD HIM WHAT TIME OR NOT? A: I DON'T. I DON'T THINK I DID. Q: YOU DON'T THINK YOU DID? A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF I -- IF I -- RIGHT NOW, I DON'T KNOW IF I DID -- I KNOW I SAID I HEARD THIS NOISE, THESE THUMPS TO HIM I TOLD. Q: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT IS -- WHAT IS THE STATE OF YOUR ANSWER, SIR? IS IT THAT YOU DO NOT REMEMBER WHETHER OR NOT YOU TOLD HIM OR YOU THINK YOU DID NOT? A: THAT I DO NOT REMEMBER. Q: YOU DON'T REMEMBER. A: I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: YOU MIGHT HAVE TOLD HIM? A: I MIGHT HAVE. Q: OKAY. DID YOU TELL HIM THAT YOU HAD GONE OUT TO THAT WALKWAY AREA TWICE EARLIER THAT NIGHT TO INVESTIGATE THE THUMPS? A: NO. Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU INDICATED ALSO THAT YOU TOLD HIM ABOUT RACHEL. WHAT DID YOU SAY ABOUT THAT? A: I WAS JUST TELLING HER -- I WAS TELLING HIM ABOUT THE NIGHT BEFORE AND I WAS TALKING TO HER MOST OF THE NIGHT. Q: DID YOU HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WITH HIM ABOUT THE DEFENDANT'S WHITE FORD BRONCO? A: NO. Q: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAD ANY CONVERSATION WITH HIM ABOUT SEEING A LIMOUSINE AT THE HOUSE THE NIGHT BEFORE? A: I THINK I DID TELL HIM THAT, ABOUT THE LIMOUSINE. Q: OKAY. DID YOU EVER TELL HIM WHAT TIME THE DEFENDANT LEFT THE HOUSE? A: I DON'T THINK I DID AT THAT TIME. NO. Q: ANYTHING ELSE HAPPEN DURING YOUR -- ANY OTHER CONVERSATION THAT YOU CAN REMEMBER? A: NO. I THINK AFTER HE DID THE TEST, WE WERE ALL GOING TO GO INSIDE THE MAIN HOUSE. Q: OKAY. HOW LONG DID YOUR CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN LAST, SIR? A: I THINK ABOUT FIVE MINUTES INSIDE THE ROOM. Q: IS THAT AN ESTIMATE YOU'RE GIVING US? A: ESTIMATE, ABOUT FIVE MINUTES. Q: AFTER YOUR CONVERSATION, WHAT DID YOU DO? A: I FOLLOWED -- WHATEVER THEY TOLD ME TO DO I DID. SO WE ALL WENT OUTSIDE. Q: OKAY. DID HE TELL YOU TO COME OUTSIDE? A: YES. Q: AND WHERE DID HE TAKE YOU? A: I FOLLOWED THROUGH INTO THE MAIN HOUSE. Q: OKAY. WHO DID YOU FOLLOW? A: I BELIEVE ARNELLE WAS LEADING WITH KEY AND THE REST OF THE DETECTIVES. Q: OKAY. SO YOU ACTUALLY SAW ARNELLE WALKING INTO THE HOUSE AHEAD OF YOU? A: YES. Q: AND DID YOU WALK IN BEHIND HER? A: YES. Q: WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN? A: YES. Q: WHEN YOU ENTERED THE HOUSE, DID YOU ENTER BEFORE OR AFTER DETECTIVE FUHRMAN? A: I THINK IT WAS BEFORE. Q: OKAY. YOU WERE AHEAD OF HIM? A: I WAS AHEAD OF HIM. Q: AND WHEN YOU ENTERED THE HOUSE, WHAT AREA DID YOU GO TO? A: WHEN YOU GO INTO THAT DOOR, THERE'S A BAR AREA, AND I WENT TO THE BAR AREA. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU WENT TO THE BAR AREA? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO AT THE BAR AREA? A: THEY ASKED ME TO HAVE A SEAT THERE. Q: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN? A: I BELIEVE SO. Q: SO YOU SAT AT THE BAR AREA DID YOU? A: YES. Q: THEN WHAT HAPPENED? A: WELL, I SAT AT ONE OF THE STOOLS AT THE BAR AND THEN DETECTIVE VANNATTER SAT NEXT TO ME. Q: OKAY. NOW, AFTER YOU SAT DOWN AT THE BAR AREA, WHERE DID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN GO? DID HE STAY WITH YOU? A: NO. Q: DID HE LEAVE? A: HE WASN'T IN THE ROOM WITH ME. Q: OKAY. DID HE LEAVE AFTER YOU SAT AT THE BAR? A: YEAH. HE WAS IN THE ROOM. SO HE LEFT. Q: OKAY. AND THEN PHIL VANNATTER CAME AND SAT DOWN AND TALKED TO YOU DID HE? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM? A: I WENT OVER PRETTY MUCH THE SAME THINGS AND TOLD HIM MORE ABOUT THE ENTIRE NIGHT, AND HE WROTE THINGS DOWN. Q: HE TOOK NOTES? A: YES. Q: NOW, DO YOU RECALL, DURING YOUR CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER, WHAT YOU TOLD HIM ABOUT WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM? A: THAT HE WAS ON A FLIGHT, HE WENT TO CHICAGO. MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, WE HAVE PEOPLE'S -- (BRIEF PAUSE.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. DO YOU SEE THE AREA THAT YOU HAVE EARLIER BEEN DISCUSSING CALLED THE BAR AREA? A: YES. Q: WOULD YOU PLEASE DIRECT THE LIGHT, SIR? A: UH, GO STRAIGHT UP. THAT'S -- THAT'S THE SEATS. THAT'S THE BAR (INDICATING). Q: OKAY. IS THAT WHERE YOU SAT? A: I SAT IN THAT -- THAT -- NO. NEXT ONE. THAT ONE (INDICATING). Q: YOU SAT IN THAT CHAIR? A: YEAH. PRETTY POSITIVE THAT WAS THE CHAIR. Q: ALL RIGHT. AND THAT'S WHERE DETECTIVE FUHRMAN ASKED YOU TO SIT EARLIER? A: YES. Q: WHERE DID DETECTIVE VANNATTER COME AND SIT WHEN HE SPOKE TO YOU? A: NEXT TO IT. THE -- THAT ONE (INDICATING). Q: NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT YOU TOLD HIM THAT THE DEFENDANT WAS IN CHICAGO? A: YES. Q: OKAY. AND DID YOU TELL DETECTIVE VANNATTER WHAT TIME THE DEFENDANT LEFT? A: YES. Q: OKAY. AND WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM? A: THAT HE WAS GOING TO -- TOOK A LIMO TO THE AIRPORT AND I THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT 11:15. Q: SO YOU TOLD DETECTIVE VANNATTER WHAT TIME -- A: YES. Q: -- THE DEFENDANT LEFT. AT THE TIME THAT YOU HAD THIS DISCUSSION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER, WAS MARK FUHRMAN STANDING NEAR YOU? A: NO. Q: WHAT ELSE DID YOU TELL DETECTIVE VANNATTER? A: THAT I ALSO TOLD HIM ABOUT THE NOISES, THE THUMPS THAT I HEARD. Q: DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT TIME YOU HEARD THE THUMPS? A: I BELIEVE SO. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM? A: THAT I HEARD THE THUMPS AT ABOUT 10:40, THAT I WAS ON THE PHONE AT THE TIME, I THOUGHT THERE WAS AN EARTHQUAKE, MY PICTURE MOVED. Q: AND AT THAT TIME, WERE YOU AND DETECTIVE VANNATTER ALONE IN THE BAR AREA? A: YES. MY BACK WAS -- I WAS FACING THE FRONT OF THE BAR AND I COULDN'T SEE BEHIND ME, BUT I BELIEVE WE WERE JUST THE TWO IN THAT AREA. I'M PRETTY POSITIVE. Q: ALL RIGHT. WHILE YOU WERE SEATED AT THE BAR AREA WITH PHIL, TOWARDS THE END OF THAT CONVERSATION, DID SOMETHING OCCUR THAT DREW YOUR ATTENTION? A: OH, YES. Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT? A: UMM, ARNELLE HAD -- HAD SCREAMED. Q: WHAT DID SHE SCREAM? A: SHE SAID, "OH, MY GOD." Q: AND WHERE DID THAT SOUND APPEAR TO BE COMING FROM? A: THE KITCHEN. Q: ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR -- I KNOW IT'S NOT DEPICTED IN THE PHOTOGRAPH -- CAN YOU TELL US IN A GENERAL DIRECTION WHERE THE KITCHEN WOULD BE? A: DO YOU KNOW THE SEAT THAT I WAS IN? Q: YEAH. LET'S START THERE, DIRECT THE DOT. A: GO TO YOUR RIGHT ALL THE WAY. YEAH, PAST -- BUT IT'S OFF -- BUT IT WOULD BE IN THERE, PAST THERE, YEAH (INDICATING). Q: OKAY. AND CAN YOU WALK FROM THE BAR AREA INTO THE KITCHEN AREA? IS THERE LIKE A HALLWAY THERE? A: YES. Q: YOU HEARD HER SCREAM, "OH, MY GOD," AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED? A: AND I WAS SITTING THERE AND I KNEW SOMETHING WAS VERY WRONG. Q: THEN WHAT HAPPENED? A: AND I BELIEVE THE DETECTIVE FINISHED THE INTERVIEW WITH ME AND HE HAD TOLD ME WHAT HAD HAPPENED. Q: OKAY. AND WHAT DID HE TELL YOU? A: THAT NICOLE WAS MURDERED. Q: AND WHEN -- AFTER HE TOLD YOU THAT -- WELL, AT THE TIME THAT HE TOLD YOU THAT, WAS IT JUST, AGAIN, YOU AND HE ALONE IN THE BAR AREA? A: I THINK AT THAT MOMENT, WE WERE ALONE AND I THINK THEN ARNELLE WAS IN -- WALKING IN ALSO. Q: AS HE WAS TELLING YOU? A: YES. Q: AND WHERE DID SHE WALK IN FROM? WHAT DIRECTION? A: THAT -- WHERE -- THE KITCHEN AREA BACK INTO THE BAR AREA. Q: OKAY. AND THEN AFTER ARNELLE CAME INTO THE BAR AREA, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? A: WE HUGGED AND -- Q: AND THEN? A: UH, WENT INTO THE KITCHEN AREA. Q: WHO WENT INTO THE KITCHEN AREA? A: I THINK WE ALL WERE IN THERE. THE -- IN THE KITCHEN AREA FROM WHAT I REMEMBER. Q: WHEN YOU SAY "WE ALL," WHO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? A: WELL, I WENT WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER IN THERE AND I THINK DETECTIVE LANGE WAS IN THERE AND ARNELLE WAS THERE AND THEN THERE WAS A PHONE CALL THAT WAS GOING TO BE MADE. Q: OKAY. YOU INDICATED EARLIER THERE WAS A FOURTH DETECTIVE WHOSE NAME YOU DO NOT RECALL. WAS HE IN THERE AS WELL? A: I BELIEVE SO. Q: DID YOU SEE DETECTIVE FUHRMAN IN THERE AT THAT TIME? A: THE OTHER TWO, I -- I CAN'T BE A HUNDRED PERCENT POSITIVE IF HE WAS IN THERE OR NOT. IT -- IT SEEMED -- Q: WELL, WHO DO YOU RECALL SEEING IN THE KITCHEN, MR. KAELIN? A: I RECALL DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND ARNELLE AND MYSELF AND DETECTIVE LANGE, AND THAT'S I'M SURE ON, AND I THINK THE OTHERS TOO, BUT I'M NOT SURE. Q: OKAY. AND WHO WAS MAKING THE PHONE CALL THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A: I -- ARNELLE WAS MAKING THE CALL. Q: SO YOU SAW HER WITH A PHONE IN HER HAND DID YOU? A: YES. Q: AND DID YOU HEAR HER SPEAK TO SOMEONE? A: SHE WAS TRYING TO, YES. MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE HERE A PHOTOGRAPH I WOULD ASK BE MARKED PEOPLE'S -- (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: PEOPLE'S 141. IT WAS CORRECTED APPARENTLY. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. (PEO'S 141 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) Q: BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 141, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US -- YOU CAN LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT AREA? A: YES. IT'S THE, UH, KITCHEN. Q: THAT'S THE KITCHEN AREA, SIR? A: YES, IT IS. Q: ALL RIGHT. WHERE IS THE PHONE THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT? A: OKAY. DO YOU HAVE THE, UH, LIGHT? Q: YEAH. A: STRAIGHT AGAINST THE WALL. Q: WHICH WALL? A: GO STRAIGHT RIGHT -- NOW, RIGHT THERE, NOW DOWN AND TO YOUR RIGHT. RIGHT THERE (INDICATING). Q: ALL RIGHT. THAT'S THE PHONE RIGHT THERE? A: YOU'RE ON THE PHONE, YES. Q: ALL RIGHT. AND YOU SAW ARNELLE ON THAT PHONE? A: RIGHT. YES. Q: OKAY. AND AT SOME POINT -- DID SHE REMAIN ON THE PHONE AND HAVE A CONVERSATION? A: NO. Q: WHAT DID SHE DO? A: SHE STARTED CRYING. Q: AND THEN WHAT DID SHE DO? A: SHE HANDED THE PHONE I BELIEVE TO DETECTIVE LANGE. Q: AND WHAT DID DETECTIVE LANGE DO? A: HE GOT ON THE PHONE AND SAID WHAT HAPPENED TO I BELIEVE NICOLE'S MOTHER. Q: NOW, DID YOU REMAIN IN THE KITCHEN AT THAT POINT? A: YES. I WAS IN THE KITCHEN. Q: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECALL SAYING ANYTHING TO PHIL VANNATTER AFTER THAT PHONE CALL WITH -- THAT ARNELLE AND DETECTIVE LANGE HAD WITH THE BROWN FAMILY? A: YES. Q: WHAT? A: I HAD MENTIONED TO HIM ABOUT THAT NOISE THAT I HEARD, THE THUMPS, IF IT MEANT ANYTHING. Q: DID YOU ASK -- WHAT -- DID YOU ASK HIM ANYTHING ABOUT IT? A: YES. Q: WHAT DID YOU ASK? A: I SAID, "DID YOU EVER CHECK ON THAT -- THAT NOISE I HEARD BEHIND THE WALL?" Q: AND WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE? A: HUH, LIKE SHRUG. HE REALLY DIDN'T ANSWER. Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, AFTER THAT POINT, YOU REMAINED IN THE KITCHEN STILL? A: YES. Q: DID ANYONE EVER ASK YOU ABOUT -- AT THAT POINT WHILE YOU WERE IN THE KITCHEN ABOUT THE WHITE FORD BRONCO? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT DID THEY ASK YOU? WHO FIRST OF ALL? A: I THOUGHT IT WAS DETECTIVE VANNATTER. Q: DETECTIVE VANNATTER? A: VANNATTER. Q: AND WHAT DID HE ASK YOU? A: IF THERE'S KEYS TO THE BRONCO. Q: AND WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE? A: I SAID, "YEAH, I THINK THERE'S KEYS SOMEWHERE," AND I STARTED TO LOOK FOR KEYS. Q: AND YOU DID LOOK FOR KEYS THEN? A: YES, I DID. Q: DID YOU FIND ANY? A: I FOUND THE KEY -- NOT THE KEY, BUT I FOUND KEYS, NOT THE BRONCO KEYS. Q: YOU NEVER FOUND ANY KEYS TO THE BRONCO? A: NO. Q: DID ANYONE HELP YOU LOOK FOR KEYS FOR THE BRONCO? A: I THOUGHT I WAS DOING IT ON MY OWN. ARNELLE MIGHT HAVE, BUT I KNOW I WAS. BUT JUST -- I WAS GOING THROUGH SOME DRAWERS. Q: ANYBODY EVER FIND KEYS TO THE BRONCO? A: NO, NOT WHEN I WAS THERE. Q: AT SOME POINT, DO YOU RECALL SEEING SIDNEY AND JUSTIN AT THE HOUSE? A: YES, I DO. Q: AND WHERE DID YOU SEE THEM? A: THEY WERE IN THE KITCHEN. THEY SHOWED UP IN THE KITCHEN. Q: DID -- THE FIRST -- WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU SAW THEM? BEFORE OR AFTER YOU SPOKE TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER AT THE BAR AREA? A: IT WAS AFTER THAT. Q: WHAT DID YOU DO, IF ANYTHING, WITH THE CHILDREN IN THE KITCHEN? A: JUSTIN STARTED PLAYING VIDEO GAMES ON THE T.V. THAT'S TO THE SIDE. YOU CAN'T SEE IN THE SHOT, BUT IT'S RIGHT TO THE -- BY THE -- THE CHAIRS THERE, THE -- UH, I DON'T KNOW -- TO THE RIGHT OF THE PICTURE. YOU CAN'T SEE IT -- BACK OF THE T.V. IT HOOKS UP TO THE VIDEO GAMES. AND SIDNEY WAS LYING ON THE LITTLE NOOK COUCH (INDICATING). MS. CLARK: OKAY. SHOWING PEOPLE'S 142, YOUR HONOR. (PEO'S 142 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) Q: BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 142, MR. KAELIN, CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER YOU CAN SEE THE TELEVISION THAT YOU'VE EARLIER DESCRIBED? A: YES, YOU CAN. AND IT'S -- Q: AND WHERE IS IT? A: IT'S RIGHT -- YES. STRAIGHT -- RIGHT THERE (INDICATING). Q: NOW, AT SOME POINT -- HOW ARE YOU DRESSED AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME, IF YOU RECALL? A: I THINK I HAD JUST A SHIRT ON AND I THINK PAJAMA BOTTOMS. I'M PRETTY SURE. Q: IS A T-SHIRT? A: T-SHIRT. Q: DID YOU ASK FOR PERMISSION TO CHANGE THOSE CLOTHES AT ANY POINT? A: YES, I DID. Q: AND WAS THAT BEFORE OR AFTER THE CHILDREN -- YOU SAW THE CHILDREN IN THE KITCHEN? A: I THINK IT WAS WHILE THEY WERE THERE THAT I WENT TO MY ROOM AND CHANGED. Q: OKAY. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER A POLICE OFFICER ESCORTED YOU TO YOUR ROOM OR NOT? A: I DON'T RECALL. Q: AND -- BUT DID YOU GO BACK TO YOUR ROOM AND CHANGE CLOTHES? A: YES, I DID. Q: AFTER YOU CHANGED CLOTHES, WHERE DID YOU GO? A: BACK INTO THE KITCHEN AREA. Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTER YOU GOT BACK INTO THE KITCHEN AREA? A: I WAS PLAYING WITH JUSTIN AND SIDNEY WAS LYING ON THE -- THE LITTLE -- THERE'S A COUCH OVER HERE ALSO THAT SHE WAS LYING ON TRYING TO SLEEP (INDICATING). Q: OKAY. WHAT HAPPENED -- AT SOME POINT, WERE YOU ASKED TO LEAVE THE PROPERTY? A: YES, I WAS. Q: HOW LONG AFTER CHANGING CLOTHES WAS THAT? A: I THINK, UH, MAYBE 10 MINUTES. Q: WHEN YOU LEFT -- AND DID YOU LEAVE THE PROPERTY THEN WHEN YOU WERE ASKED TO LEAVE? A: YES. I WENT ON ASHFORD. Q: DID YOU LEAVE ON YOUR OWN OR WERE YOU ESCORTED OUT? A: ESCORTED OUT. Q: BY A POLICE OFFICER? A: YES. Q: WERE YOU WARNED OF ANYTHING AS YOU WERE ESCORTED OUT OF THE PROPERTY? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT? A: THEY SAID BE CAREFUL OF THE BLOOD. Q: WERE THEY POINTING TO SOME AREAS ON THE GROUND? A: WELL, THEY WERE JUST KIND OF WALKING ME, AND THEY DIDN'T POINT. THEY WERE WALKING WITH ME AND THEY SAID BE CAREFUL OF THE BLOOD, AND I LOOKED DOWN. Q: AND DID YOU SEE BLOOD? A: YES. Q: OKAY. WHERE WAS THAT? A: IN THE FOYER, PICTURE WE SAW EARLIER OF THE FRONT DOOR. Q: LET ME COME BACK TO THAT. AFTER YOU WERE ESCORTED OUT, WHERE WERE YOU ESCORTED OUT TO? A: OKAY. I WENT OUT THE DRIVEWAY -- Q: UH-HUH. A: -- AND THEY ASKED ME TO WAIT ON ASHFORD. THEY SAID THAT, UH, TWO, UH, UNIFORMED POLICE WOULD TAKE ME TO A STATION. Q: AND DID YOU GO OUT TO ASHFORD AND WAIT? A: YES, I DID. Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTER YOU WAITED ON ASHFORD? A: I WAITED FOR SOMEONE TO PICK ME UP. Q: DID THEY? A: THE ONES THAT WERE SUPPOSED TO DIDN'T. TWO OTHERS WERE THERE THAT TOOK ME. Q: AND WHERE DID THEY TAKE YOU TO? A: UMM, I DON'T KNOW THE STATION, WHAT IT'S CALLED. I THINK IT'S -- IT'S PRETTY NEAR THE, UH -- IT'S LIKE A 10-MINUTE DRIVE I THINK, WHATEVER STATION IT'S CALLED. I THINK IT'S PAST BUNDY. Q: UH-HUH. A: YOU FOLLOW BUNDY DOWN. I DON'T KNOW THE -- Q: ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU HAVE A -- DID YOU THEN GIVE AN INTERVIEW TO THE POLICE OFFICERS AT THE STATION? A: YES. Q: DO YOU RECALL WHO THOSE OFFICERS WERE? A: YES. Q: WHO? A: BRIAN CARR AND PAUL TIPPIN. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU TELL THEM? A: I WENT OVER EVERYTHING THAT I HAD SAID BEFORE. Q: WHAT YOU'VE TOLD US HERE TODAY? A: YES. Q: CAN YOU RECALL WHETHER WHEN YOU WERE IN THE ROOM WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, YOU HAD THAT FIRST -- THAT WAS THE FIRST POLICE OFFICER I GUESS YOU SPOKE TO; IS THAT RIGHT? A: YES. Q: DO YOU -- DID YOU TELL HIM -- WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT THE THUMPS, DID YOU DESCRIBE FOR HIM WHAT YOU HEARD AND WHAT YOU SAW IN YOUR ROOM? A: YES. Q: WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM IN THAT REGARD? A: I WAS -- I WAS EXCITED. I SAID AND THEN I HEARD THESE THUMPS, THERE WAS LIKE THREE THUMPS AND MY PICTURE MOVED, I THOUGHT WE HAD AN EARTHQUAKE. Q: UH-HUH. DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT YOU THOUGHT AT -- ABOUT THAT, WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAD AN EARTHQUAKE? A: THAT IT COULD BE SOMETHING, SOMEBODY MIGHT HAVE BEEN AROUND. Q: AND THEN WHEN YOU -- YOU INDICATE THAT AS YOU WERE LEAVING THE HOUSE THAT MORNING, THE POLICE OFFICERS ESCORTED YOU OUT OF THE HOUSE? A: YES. Q: DID THEY HAVE A HAND ON YOUR ARM? A: I THINK SO. I THINK THEY WERE JUST WALKING ME OUT. Q: UH-HUH. AND DID THEY STEER YOU AROUND THOSE BLOOD DROPS YOU DESCRIBED? A: I STEERED MYSELF. I SAW AND I DIDN'T STEP NEAR. MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 112. Q: BY MS. CLARK: THAT'S THE FOYER AREA? A: YES, IT IS. Q: AND IS THAT -- YOU INDICATED YOU SAW BLOOD DROPS IN THAT AREA? A: YES. MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 121. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID IT LOOK LIKE THAT (INDICATING)? A: YES. Q: NOW, DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE SPEAKING TO THE DETECTIVES THAT EARLY -- THOSE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF JUNE THE 13TH, SIR, CAN YOU DESCRIBE YOUR STATE OF MIND, YOUR MENTAL CONDITION? A: TIRED, DISORIENTATED, SHOOK UP. Q: HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK TO THE POLICE OFFICERS AT THE STATION, THE WEST L.A. STATION? A: THE ACTUAL TALKING -- UH, I WAS THERE A LONG TIME. THE ACTUAL TALK, I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG IT WAS -- YOU KNOW, HOUR HERE, THEN WAITED AGAIN LIKE ANOTHER HOUR OR TWO AND THEN THEY CAME BACK AND IT SEEMED LIKE ABOUT ANOTHER HOUR. I WAS THERE A LONG TIME. Q: DO YOU RECALL APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU COMPLETED THAT INTERVIEW? A: I THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT 4:00 O'CLOCK. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO THEN? A: I -- THEY TOOK ME -- THEY -- I SUPPOSEDLY WAS GOING TO GO BACK TO THE HOUSE. THEY SAID PROBABLY NOT A GOOD IDEA TO, BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW THERE WAS ALL NEWS CAMERA THERE. Q: YOU WERE GOING TO GO BACK TO ROCKINGHAM WERE YOU? A: YES. Q: OKAY. A: AND THEN THEY ASKED ME IF I WANTED TO BE DROPPED OFF SOMEWHERE INSTEAD. Q: AND WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE? A: "OKAY." Q: AND WHERE DID YOU GO? A: TO A FRIEND'S HOUSE. Q: AND WHO WAS THAT FRIEND? A: GRANT CRAMER. Q: WHEN YOU GOT TO GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE, DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM? A: YES. WE TALKED. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU TELL HIM? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. HEARSAY. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED THE NIGHT BEFORE? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID GRANT CRAMER ASK YOU ANY QUESTIONS? A: GRANT WAS DOING A LOT OF TALKING. HE WAS TALKING, YES, VERY EXCITED. Q: OKAY. DID YOU TALK BACK? A: YES. Q: AND WHAT WAS THE SUBJECT MATTER OF YOUR CONVERSATION? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. THE COURT: HEARSAY? MR. SHAPIRO: YES. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. MS. CLARK: MAY I APPROACH? THE COURT: YES, WITH THE REPORTER, PLEASE. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:) THE COURT: WHERE ARE YOU GOING WITH THIS? MS. CLARK: PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENT. THE COURT: OKAY. FOR -- WHAT'S YOUR OFFER AT THIS POINT? WHAT'S THE INCONSISTENT STATEMENT? MS. CLARK: ACTUALLY I'LL COME BACK TO IT IS WHAT I WILL DO, OKAY. I WAS GOING TO LAY THE FOUNDATION. I'LL JUST LAY IT LATER. WITHDRAWN. THE COURT: OKAY. MS. CLARK: THANKS. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WAS YOUR FRAME OF MIND WHEN YOU SPOKE TO GRANT CRAMER? MR. SHAPIRO: IRRELEVANT. OBJECTION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I WAS EXHAUSTED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER YOU WERE CALM OR AGITATED? A: I WAS EXHAUSTED, YET I STILL HAD LIKE ENERGY, THAT I WAS ALL EXCITED. Q: YOU WERE ALL EXCITED? A: I WAS EXHAUSTED, BUT I STILL HAD THE -- YOU KNOW, THERE WAS SO MUCH GOING ON. I MEAN, I WAS TIRED, BUT I KNEW I COULDN'T SLEEP. Q: UH-HUH. DID YOU GET A PHONE CALL WHEN YOU WERE AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE? A: AT SOME POINT, YES. Q: FROM WHO? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. HEARSAY. THE COURT: OVERRULED. JUST FROM WHO. THE WITNESS: FROM AN ATTORNEY. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU HAVE A LAWYER AT THAT TIME? A: NO. Q: WHAT WAS HIS NAME? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. THE COURT: GROUNDS? MR. SHAPIRO: IT'S HEARSAY. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: IT WAS HOWARD WEITZMAN. Q: BY MS. CLARK: HE INTRODUCED HIMSELF TO YOU, DID HE? A: ON THE PHONE, YES. Q: OKAY. AND DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM? A: YES. Q: WHO ELSE DID YOU TALK TO? A: O.J. Q: ON THE TELEPHONE? A: YES. Q: YOU TALKED TO HIM AFTER YOU SPOKE TO MR. WEITZMAN? A: I THINK THEY BOTH WERE ON. Q: AT THE SAME TIME? A: YES. Q: SO WHEN YOU WERE ON THE PHONE, WERE YOU SPEAKING -- YOU WERE SPEAKING TO THE DEFENDANT AND HIS LAWYER, MR. WEITZMAN, AT THE SAME TIME? A: WELL, I WAS TALKING TO WEITZMAN, BUT THEN I THOUGHT THAT WAS -- THAT O.J. CAME ON. SO I THOUGHT THEY WERE -- THEY WERE ALL ON. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW. I DIDN'T SEE, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS LIKE A THREE-WAY CALL. Q: OKAY. AND WHO ELSE DID YOU TALK TO? A: I THINK THAT WAS IT. YOU MEAN ON THE PHONE? Q: ON THE PHONE. A: I DON'T REMEMBER RIGHT NOW. Q: DURING THE TIME THAT YOU LIVED AT ROCKINGHAM, WERE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH ANYONE WHO WORKED FOR THE DEFENDANT? A: YES. Q: WHO WORKED FOR THE DEFENDANT? A: UH, SKIP TAFT. Q: WHO ELSE? WHO IS SKIP TAFT? A: HE'S O.J.'S ATTORNEY FOR BUSINESS I BELIEVE. Q: OKAY. WHO ELSE? A: UMM, ROBERT KARDASHIAN. Q: AND WHAT DID HE DO FOR THE DEFENDANT? A: I DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE JOBS. I THINK THEY'RE FRIENDS. I DON'T KNOW BUSINESS WISE, BUT I KNOW THEY'RE FRIENDS. Q: OKAY. WHO ELSE? A: ON THE PHONE OR -- Q: NO, NO. A: -- OR WHO WERE THEIR FRIENDS? Q: WHO WORKED FOR THE DEFENDANT? WHEN YOU LIVED ON ROCKINGHAM -- A: CATHY RANDA. Q: DID YOU TALK TO HER ON THE TELEPHONE THAT DAY? A: I THINK I MIGHT HAVE. Q: WAS THAT DURING THAT SAME PHONE CALL? A: I THINK SO. Q: DO YOU RECALL WHO WAS -- WHO IT WAS THAT INITIALLY PLACED THE CALL TO YOU AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE? A: IT COULD HAVE BEEN CATHY PLUGGING ME INTO HOWARD WEITZMAN OR HOWARD WEITZ -- I DON'T REMEMBER. I KNOW I TALKED TO HIM THOUGH. Q: OKAY. SO IN THAT PHONE CALL AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE, YOU SPOKE TO WHO? A: TO HOWARD WEITZMAN AND O.J. AND I THINK CATHY RANDA ALSO. Q: OKAY. AND WHO IS CATHY RANDA? A: UMM, O.J.'S SECRETARY. Q: HOW LONG DID YOU TALK TO THEM THAT FIRST TIME? A: WASN'T VERY LONG. I'D SAY LIKE FIVE MINUTES. Q: AND WHAT -- WHAT DID THEY SAY? A: THEY SAID TO TELL THE TRUTH. Q: UH-HUH. OH, REALLY. WHO TOLD YOU THAT? A: THEY BOTH DID. Q: WHO'S BOTH? A: HOWARD WEITZMAN AND O.J. Q: UH-HUH. HOW DID THEY KNOW WHERE TO CALL YOU? A: I DON'T KNOW. Q: YOU DIDN'T TELL THEM YOU WERE GOING TO GRANT'S HOUSE? A: I -- I THINK IT WAS ON MY -- I CALLED THE HOUSE UP ON ROCKINGHAM AND SAID I WAS AT A FRIEND'S HOUSE, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHO ANSWERED -- I CAN'T REMEMBER WHO ANSWERED THE PHONE AT THE HOUSE. Q: DID YOU LEAVE A PHONE NUMBER WHERE YOU COULD BE REACHED? A: I MUST HAVE I THINK. Q: WHY DID YOU CALL THE HOUSE? A: I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER IF I DID. I THINK I WAS JUST SEEING WHAT'S GOING ON. Q: AND YOU MADE THAT PHONE CALL FROM WHERE? A: WELL, I WAS AT THE POLICE STATION TO MAKE A PHONE CALL AND I -- I HAD MY OWN LINE. SO I CALLED IN. THAT'S WHEN I KNEW SOMETHING -- THAT IT WAS A BIG MEDIA EVENT. BUT I DON'T -- WHEN I WENT TO GRANT'S, I DON'T REMEMBER GIVING OUT MY -- THE NUMBER THERE. I JUST DON'T REMEMBER. I COULD HAVE. I DON'T KNOW. Q: SO YOU WERE AT THE POLICE STATION. WAS IT BEFORE OR AFTER THE INTERVIEW WITH THE POLICE THAT YOU CALLED THE DEFENDANT? A: I -- I -- I DIDN'T CALL. Q: YOU SAID YOU CALLED THE HOUSE. A: HOUSE -- THERE WAS PEOPLE THERE. I DON'T -- I DON'T -- Q: WHO WERE YOU -- A: -- KNOW. I THINK IT WAS A RELATIVE THAT PICKED UP THE PHONE. THE COURT: HOLD ON, HOLD ON. HOLD ON. MR. KAELIN, LET MISS CLARK FINISH ASKING THE QUESTION. THE WITNESS: OKAY. THE COURT: MISS CLARK, LET HIM FINISH SPEAKING BEFORE YOU ASK THE NEXT QUESTION. MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: THANK YOU. Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU CALLED THE HOUSE BEFORE OR AFTER THE INTERVIEW? A: IT HAD TO BE AFTER. THE INTERVIEW WITH -- Q: THE POLICE. A: THE POLICE. Q: AT THE WEST L.A. STATION. A: YES. Q: IT WAS AFTER? A: IT HAD TO BE BECAUSE I WAS THERE. I DIDN'T MAKE ANY PHONE CALLS WHEN I WAS THERE UNTIL AFTER THEY WERE THROUGH WITH ME. Q: ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT PHONE NUMBER DID YOU CALL? A: MY PHONE. Q: YOU CALLED YOUR PHONE? A: YES. Q: BUT YOU WEREN'T HOME. A: NO, BUT I WAS CALLING TO SEE MY MESSAGES. Q: OKAY. YOU WERE CALLING TO GET YOUR MESSAGES PLAYED BACK? A: YES. Q: AND DID YOU CALL TO -- INTO THE MAIN HOUSE? A: NOT FROM THERE. I DON'T REMEMBER CALLING FROM GRANT'S HOUSE EITHER THOUGH, BUT I COULD HAVE. I PROBABLY DID, BUT -- Q: OKAY. DO YOU REMEMBER CALLING THE DEFENDANT TO TELL HIM OR TO LET SOMEONE AT THE HOUSE KNOW WHERE YOU'D BE? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. LEADING. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I -- I PROBABLY DID, BECAUSE I'M SURE THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT ME, WHERE I WAS. Q: BY MS. CLARK: THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT YOU? HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN THE DEFENDANT? A: UMM, IT WAS AT HIS HOUSE FOR SIX MONTHS. I MET HIM BEFORE THAT LIKE FOUR MONTHS BEFORE. Q: UH-HUH. YOU WENT OUT ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH TO MC DONALD'S WITH HIM; IS THAT RIGHT? A: YES. Q: HAD YOU EVER GONE OUT TO DINNER WITH HIM BEFORE? A: YES. Q: HOW MANY TIMES? A: MAYBE TWO OR THREE AND AT THE -- AT THE -- ALSO ATE AT THE GRETNA GREEN HOUSE. NOT OUT, BUT IN THE HOUSE. Q: WELL, YOU WERE STAYING AT THE GRETNA GREEN HOUSE, WEREN'T YOU? A: RIGHT, WHEN HE WOULD COME OVER. Q: OKAY. AND THE TWO OR THREE TIMES THAT YOU HAD DINNER WITH THE DEFENDANT, WAS THAT IN THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION IN THE RESIDENCE? A: OH, NO. OUT AT RESTAURANTS. Q: AND WHAT RESTAURANTS WERE THOSE? A: WE WENT ACTUALLY TO A SIZZLER WITH THE KIDS AND -- Q: AND WHO ELSE? THE KIDS AND WHO ELSE? A: JUST MYSELF AND O.J. Q: AND SIDNEY AND JUSTIN? A: YES, AND MY DAUGHTER TIFFANY. Q: HOW MANY -- AND YOUR DAUGHTER TIFFANY? A: YES. Q: AND HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU GO OUT WITH THE DEFENDANT, JUST YOU AND HE? A: NOT OFTEN AT ALL. Q: HOW MANY TIMES? A: MAYBE ONCE IF THAT. Q: DURING THE SIX MONTHS THAT YOU LIVED AT ROCKINGHAM, DID YOU GO OUT WITH THE DEFENDANT ALONE TO DINNER EVER? A: NO. Q: AFTER THAT FIRST PHONE CALL IN WHICH YOU SPOKE TO THE DEFENDANT, CATHY RANDA AND THE DEFENDANT'S LAWYER, HOWARD WEITZMAN -- A: YES. Q: -- DID YOU HAVE ANOTHER CONVERSATION WITH THEM? A: THAT SAME DAY? Q: YES. A: I -- I COULD HAVE. I MEAN, I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: DID YOU ALSO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH SKIP TAFT? A: YES. Q: AND WAS THAT IN THE FIRST PHONE CALL AS WELL? A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF IT'S THE FIRST PHONE CALL. Q: AND DID YOU HAVE A SECOND PHONE CALL WITH ANY OF THE PEOPLE WE'VE MENTIONED; SKIP TAFT, HOWARD WEITZMAN, CATHY RANDA OR THE DEFENDANT? A: I THINK I HAD ANOTHER PHONE CALL WITH HOWARD WEITZMAN. Q: AND WHO ELSE DID YOU TALK TO IN THAT SECOND PHONE CALL? A: I -- I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT DAY IT WAS, THE PHONE CALL. IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN TO ROBERT SHAPIRO. Q: NO. NO. I'M TALKING ABOUT JUNE THE 13TH AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE. A: I DON'T KNOW. I TALKED TO HOWARD WEITZMAN AND TO O.J. AND CATHY RANDA. THAT PHONE CALL, I -- I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: OKAY. AFTER THAT PHONE CALL, DID YOU HAVE ANOTHER PHONE CALL FROM ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE ON JUNE THE 13TH? A: CATHY RANDA MIGHT HAVE CALLED. Q: AGAIN? A: YES. Q: AND WHO DID YOU SPEAK TO IN THAT SECOND PHONE CALL? A: IT'S POSSIBLE I SPOKE TO O.J. Q: AGAIN? FOR HOW LONG? A: PROBABLY A VERY SHORT TIME, MAYBE THREE TO FIVE MINUTES. Q: OKAY. AND WHO ELSE DID YOU SPEAK TO IN THAT SECOND PHONE CALL? A: I -- I DON'T REMEMBER. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS HOWARD WEITZMAN AGAIN OR NOT. Q: YOU SPOKE TO THE DEFENDANT AND SOMEONE ELSE? A: BOY, I -- I JUST CAN'T -- I CAN'T REMEMBER THAT -- THE PHONE CALL. THE ONE PHONE CALL, I'M TRYING TO -- I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER, AND I CAN'T. Q: OKAY. HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK TO THE DEFENDANT IN THE FIRST PHONE CALL? A: MAYBE TWO TO THREE MINUTES. Q: AND YOU SPOKE TO HIM FOR HOW LONG IN THE SECOND PHONE CALL? A: PROBABLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME. MAYBE FIVE MAX. Q: AND DURING THE SECOND PHONE CALL, WHO DID YOU TALK TO BESIDES THE DEFENDANT? A: I DON'T KNOW. Q: AND IN THE FIRST PHONE CALL WHEN YOU SPOKE TO HOWARD WEITZMAN, HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK TO HIM? A: MAYBE FIVE MINUTES. Q: AND HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK TO CATHY RANDA? A: I -- TWO MINUTES. Q: AND HOW LONG DID YOU SPEAK TO SKIP TAFT? A: I CAN'T GIVE LIKE EXACT TIMES. I -- I DON'T KNOW. FIVE MINUTES. Q: AND IN THE SECOND PHONE CALL, WHAT DID YOU DISCUSS WITH THE DEFENDANT? A: I -- I SAID I COULDN'T BELIEVE THIS -- WHAT WAS GOING ON, AND I -- I WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT THAT. Q: ABOUT WHAT? A: I DON'T -- THE NIGHT OF STRANGE THINGS. I SAID I HEARD THE THUMPING NOISE. Q: DID -- DID THE DEFENDANT TELL YOU WHAT HAD OCCURRED WITH HIM AFTER HE GOT BACK FROM CHICAGO OR DID YOU KNOW? A: WHAT HAD OCCURRED TO HIM AFTER CHICAGO? Q: AFTER HE GOT BACK FROM CHICAGO, RIGHT. A: NO, I DIDN'T KNOW. Q: YOU WEREN'T WATCHING T.V.? A: I -- THE T.V. MIGHT HAVE BEEN ON. I KNEW AT SOME POINT, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WAS ALL GOING ON. I KNEW THAT HE WAS ARRESTED. Q: OKAY. DID YOU TALK TO HIM ABOUT THAT? A: I THINK SO. I REALLY DON'T KNOW THE -- THE DIALOGUE. Q: WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU LEFT THE POLICE STATION TO GO TO GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE? A: I THINK AT 4:00 O'CLOCK OR SO; 4:00, 4:15. Q: OKAY. AFTER THE SECOND PHONE CALL, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT; THAT IS THE SECOND PHONE CALL FROM THE DEFENDANT TO YOU AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE? A: I DON'T KNOW. BUT I STAYED AT GRANT'S HOUSE FOR A WHILE. Q: DID YOU EVENTUALLY LEAVE HIS HOUSE? A: YES. Q: AND WHERE DID YOU GO? A: I WENT BACK TO THE ROCKINGHAM HOUSE. Q: AND WHY DID YOU DO THAT? A: I HAD MY CLOTHES THERE. Q: DID SOMEONE ASK YOU TO GO BACK? A: UMM, I -- I DON'T REMEMBER. I THINK I JUST WENT BACK. Q: YOU DON'T REMEMBER? A: I WENT BACK -- YES. I WENT BACK AND O.J. WAS THERE. Q: UH-HUH. DID HE ASK YOU TO COME BACK? A: HE COULD HAVE. AND I DID COME BACK. Q: SO WHAT TIME DID YOU GO BACK TO ROCKINGHAM? A: I THINK IT WAS LATE. I THINK IT WAS DARK. I -- I DON'T KNOW THE TIMES, BUT GRANT TOOK ME BACK. Q: GRANT GAVE YOU A RIGHT TO THE DEFENDANT'S HOUSE? A: YES. Q: AND THIS WAS AFTER YOU HAD LEARNED THAT HE HAD BEEN ARRESTED FOR TWO MURDERS; IS THAT RIGHT? A: YES. Q: YOU WENT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM? A: YES. Q: AND WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM, WHO WAS THERE? A: IT WAS FILLED WITH PEOPLE. Q: WHO? A: I -- I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THE PEOPLE. IT WAS A LOT OF RELATIVES, FRIENDS, UMM, UH, FACES THAT I DIDN'T KNOW AND RELATIVES, ARNELLE AND JASON AND -- Q: OKAY. DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU GOT THERE EXACTLY? A: I THOUGHT IT WAS MAYBE 9:30 OR 10:00. I -- I DON'T KNOW THE TIME. I KNOW THE NEWS WAS ON. Q: DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU LEFT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE TO GO TO ROCKINGHAM? A: I DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW THE TIME. Q: AT ALL? A: AT ALL. Q: WHO DID YOU TALK TO WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM? A: I -- I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH O.J. Q: AND WHAT DID YOU TALK TO HIM ABOUT? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR HEARSAY. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: THERE WAS A CONVERSATION THAT, UH -- ABOUT THE MC DONALD'S, THAT I DIDN'T SEE HIM GO BACK IN THE HOUSE, AND THAT WAS WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT. Q: BY MS. CLARK: UH-HUH. A: AND I SAID NO, I DIDN'T SEE. Q: OKAY. AND DID YOU TALK TO HIM ALSO ABOUT THE THUMPS ON THE WALL? A: YES. Q: DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT YOU HAD TOLD THE POLICE? A: YES. THAT I HEARD THIS THUMPING, THE PICTURE MOVED. Q: AND DID HE ASK YOU WHAT YOU TOLD THE POLICE? A: HE COULD HAVE. I -- I'M SURE I TOLD HIM AND I TOLD THE TRUTH. Q: YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF HE ASKED YOU WHETHER OR NOT HE TOLD YOU -- HE ASKED YOU WHAT YOU TOLD THE POLICE? A: I -- I DON'T. I SAID -- I -- I -- I SAID I WAS AT THE STATION AND I -- I WAS REPORT AND I TOLD WHAT I'M TELLING YOU, THAT I HEARD THESE NOISES, BUT I -- HE HAD ASKED ME ABOUT THAT I SAW HIM GO BACK IN THE HOUSE AND I DIDN'T. Q: OKAY. AT SOME POINT, DID YOU LEAVE ROCKINGHAM THAT NIGHT? A: I THINK I DID. Q: AND WHEN WAS THAT? A: I DON'T KNOW THE TIME, BUT I THINK I STAYED AT GRANT'S HOUSE. Q: AND DO YOU RECALL WHETHER IT WAS BEFORE OR AFTER MIDNIGHT THAT YOU LEFT ROCKINGHAM? A: I THINK IT COULD HAVE BEEN AFTER MIDNIGHT. Q: AND YOU WENT BACK TO GRANT'S HOUSE? A: YES. Q: WHO ELSE WAS AT GRANT'S HOUSE BESIDES YOU AND GRANT? A: HIS GIRLFRIEND. Q: HIS GIRLFRIEND - WHAT'S HER NAME? A: CATHY. Q: AND WHO ELSE? A: I THINK THERE WAS A GUY THERE THAT DAY, BUT HE WAS LEAVING. HIS NAME WAS CLINE. Q: UH-HUH. WHAT ABOUT RACHEL FERRARA? WAS SHE THERE? A: DID RACHEL SHOW -- SHE MIGHT HAVE BEEN THERE. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY THE SEGMENT OF A VIDEO THAT HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY SHOWN TO COUNSEL MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 143. (PEO'S 143 FOR ID = VIDEOTAPE) (AT 2:45 P.M., PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 143, A VIDEOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHO'S THAT? A: UH, RON SHIPP. Q: AND WHERE IS THAT LOCATION SHOWN IN THIS VIDEO? A: HE'S GOING TOWARDS THE ROCKINGHAM GATE. Q: WHO'S THAT? A: THAT'S ME. Q: AND THAT SHIRT YOU'RE WEARING, SIR, DO YOU RECOGNIZE IT? A: YEAH. Q: CAN YOU REMEMBER -- DO YOU REMEMBER WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS THE SHIRT YOU WERE WEARING ON THE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF JUNE THE 13TH? A: THAT IS. THAT'S ALSO IN THE POLICE STATION I WAS WEARING. Q: YOU WORE THAT SHIRT ALL DAY, DID YOU? A: YES, I DID. Q: AND DID YOU WEAR THAT SHIRT WHEN YOU LEFT GRANT CRAMER'S TO GO BACK TO ROCKINGHAM? A: PROBABLY. Q: ON JUNE THE 13TH? A: YES. Q: WAS THAT YES? A: YES. I THINK I WORE IT LIKE TWO DAYS MAYBE. Q: REALLY? A: I WORE IT. Q: SEE THAT MAN? WHO'S THAT? A: THAT'S -- LOOKED LIKE DETECTIVE LANGE AND ROBERT KARDASHIAN. Q: AND WHO IS THAT DOG? A: AND THAT'S CHACHI. THAT'S A CHOW. Q: THAT'S THE DOG YOU WERE DESCRIBING AS THE DEFENDANT'S DOG? A: YES. (AT 2:48 P.M., THE PLAYING OF THE VIDEOTAPE ENDED.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. YOU SPENT THE NIGHT THEN AT GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 13TH? A: YES. Q: ON JUNE THE 14TH, DID YOU RECEIVE ANOTHER PHONE CALL FROM CATHY RANDA? A: I THINK SO. Q: AND DID SHE ASK YOU TO DO SOMETHING? A: UH, TO COME IN FOR AN INTERVIEW. Q: COME WHERE FOR AN INTERVIEW? A: TO, UMM, O.J.'S OFFICE BUILDING. Q: AND DID YOU DO THAT? A: YES. Q: AND WHO DID YOU TALK TO? A: AT THE INTERVIEW? Q: YES. A: IT WAS SKIP TAFT AND ROBERT SHAPIRO. Q: ROBERT SHAPIRO? A: YES. Q: AND WAS THAT INTERVIEW TAPE-RECORDED? A: YES. Q: DO YOU -- NOW, DID YOU GO BACK TO ROCKINGHAM ON JUNE THE 14TH AS WELL? A: I MIGHT HAVE GONE BACK, BUT I DON'T THINK I STAYED THE NIGHT. I WASN'T -- YOU KNOW, I WASN'T SLEEPING WELL AND I WAS EXHAUSTED AND I -- GIGI, THE HOUSEKEEPER, WE KIND OF LIKE HUNG OUT AND I SLEPT ON THE FLOOR AND SHE SLEPT IN THE BED AND WE JUST KIND OF STAYED AND I WAS OFF AND ON LEAVING -- I CAN'T -- THE DATES, I DON'T KNOW WHEN I LEFT AND WHEN I CAME BACK BECAUSE I KNOW I WAS GOING BACK AND FORTH. IT'S VERY HARD TO REMEMBER. Q: WHO TOOK YOU TO THE -- WHO TOOK YOU TO THE DEFENDANT'S OFFICE BUILDING FOR THE INTERVIEW WITH ROBERT SHAPIRO? A: UMM, ARNELLE AND HER FRIEND, JONAH. Q: AND DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THEY PICKED -- LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING ELSE. DO YOU RECALL GRANT CRAMER TAKING YOU TO THE DEFENDANT'S HOUSE ON ROCKINGHAM IN THE MORNING OF JUNE THE 14TH? A: YEAH. I THINK SO. THEY PROBABLY DID. Q: AND WHO ASKED YOU TO GO OVER TO ROCKINGHAM THAT MORNING? A: O.J. Q: OKAY. AND DID YOU TALK TO HIM AGAIN ON THE MORNING OF JUNE THE 14TH AT ROCKINGHAM? A: I THINK SO. THAT I WAS GOING TO MEET FOR THE INTERVIEW. Q: OKAY. DID YOU SPEAK TO HIM AT ROCKINGHAM BEFORE YOU LEFT FOR THE INTERVIEW? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. I DON'T KNOW IF I SAW HIM THERE. ON -- ON TUESDAY? Q: RIGHT. A: I -- I COULD HAVE. Q: OKAY. A: BUT I KNOW I WAS MEETING WITH SKIP TAFT AND ROBERT SHAPIRO, AND THEY TOOK ME TO THE OFFICE BUILDING. Q: AND WHO WAS IT THAT TOOK YOU TO THE OFFICE BUILDING? A: ARNELLE AND JONAH WAS DRIVING. Q: UH-HUH. SO THEY TOOK YOU FROM ROCKINGHAM TO THE OFFICE BUILDING; IS THAT RIGHT? A: YES, THEY DID. Q: AND HOW LONG DID YOU TALK TO MR. SHAPIRO FOR? A: I THINK I WAS THERE ABOUT AN HOUR AND A HALF, TWO HOURS. Q: AND AFTER YOU HAD THAT INTERVIEW WITH MR. SHAPIRO AND SKIP TAFT, DID YOU GET A RIDE BACK TO ROCKINGHAM? A: YES, I DID. Q: AND DID YOU SPEND THE NIGHT THAT TUESDAY NIGHT AT ROCKINGHAM? A: I COULD HAVE. I'M NOT 100 PERCENT POSITIVE. Q: DO YOU RECALL CALLING GRANT CRAMER ON THE FOLLOWING WEDNESDAY FROM ROCKINGHAM? A: PROBABLY DID, YES. Q: AND DO YOU RECALL WHAT YOU SAID TO HIM? A: I PROBABLY SAID A FEW THINGS. I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. I THINK I PROBABLY TOLD HIM ABOUT THE INTERVIEW I HAD. Q: WITH WHO? A: WITH ROBERT SHAPIRO AND SKIP TAFT. Q: UH-HUH. A: AND I PROBABLY TOLD THEM THAT I DID THAT AND, UH -- MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO ANY FURTHER CONVERSATIONS AS BEING HEARSAY. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECALL SPENDING THE NIGHT THERE ON JUNE THE 15TH? A: AT? Q: THAT WOULD BE WEDNESDAY NIGHT AT ROCKINGHAM. A: IF I DID, I DON'T REMEMBER, BUT I PROBABLY DID. I KNOW I WAS GOING BACK AND FORTH AND LEAVING PRETTY MUCH ALL THE TIME. Q: OKAY. DO YOU RECALL AT WHAT POINT YOU WENT BACK IF EVER YOU WENT BACK TO GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE? A: I WAS GOING TO GRANT'S A LOT. I PROBABLY DID EVERY DAY, WOULD GO TO HIS HOUSE AND -- AND BE THERE. Q: OKAY. DID YOU GO BACK TO HIS HOUSE ON THE NIGHT OF TUESDAY, JUNE THE 14TH? A: AFTER THE INTERVIEW? Q: AT SHAPIRO'S -- WITH ROBERT SHAPIRO? A: YEAH. AT O.J.'S OFFICE. Q: RIGHT. A: I THINK I DID. I THINK I CAME HOME, IT WAS LATE. I PROBABLY GOT HOME ABOUT 11:00, 11:30. EITHER I -- I DON'T KNOW IF I STAYED OR NOT, BUT I -- I COULD HAVE LEFT TO GRANT'S. THAT -- I DON'T REMEMBER ALL THE TIME FRAME OF WHOSE HOUSE I WAS STAYING AT. I KNOW I WASN'T SLEEPING WELL AT -- AT O.J.'S HOUSE AT ALL AND I WAS TRYING TO GO TO GRANT'S. Q: SO YOU DID SPEND AT LEAST ONE NIGHT AT THE DEFENDANT'S HOUSE; IS THAT RIGHT? A: I THINK -- I THINK I SPENT AT LEAST ONE NIGHT. Q: COULD IT HAVE BEEN TWO NIGHTS? A: IT COULD HAVE. Q: DO YOU RECALL ON THURSDAY THE 16TH WHETHER OR NOT YOU WENT BACK TO GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE TO SPEND THE NIGHT? A: ON THE 16TH? Q: YES. A: UH, I THINK I DID. Q: OKAY. NOW, YOU HAD THE INTERVIEW WITH MR. SHAPIRO ON JUNE THE 14TH. THAT WAS AN HOUR AND A HALF TO TWO HOURS YOU SAID? A: YES. Q: DID YOU HAVE A SUBSEQUENT INTERVIEW WITH INVESTIGATORS EMPLOYED BY THE DEFENDANT? A: YES, I DID. Q: AND WHEN WAS THAT? A: IT WAS IN THE SUMMERTIME. Q: OF '94? A: YES. Q: AND WHO WERE THOSE INVESTIGATORS? A: ONE NAME WAS HOSTETLER AND ANOTHER NAME WAS, UMM, PLAVICK, CLAVNICK. Q: PAVELIC? A: PAVELIC. Q: AND HOW LONG DID THAT INTERVIEW LAST? A: THAT WAS ABOUT TWO TO THREE HOURS. Q: WAS IT RECORDED? A: I DON'T THINK IT WAS RECORDED. I THINK IT WAS -- IT WAS NOTES. IT COULD HAVE BEEN -- Q: DID THEY TAKE NOTES? A: YEAH. MY LAWYER BILL WAS THERE. I THINK HE WOULDN'T -- I THINK IT WAS JUST NOTES. Q: WERE YOU EVER SHOWN A COPY OF THOSE NOTES? A: MYSELF, NO. Q: DID THEY EVER SHOW YOU A COPY OF ANY REPORT THEY GENERATED AS A RESULT OF THAT INTERVIEW? A: NOT TO ME, NO. Q: DID MR. SHAPIRO EVER GIVE YOU A COPY OF THE TAPE OF THE INTERVIEW THAT HE CONDUCTED WITH YOU ON JUNE THE 14TH? A: NOT TO ME, NO. Q: DID YOU GET A TRANSCRIPT OF THAT TAPE AT SOME POINT? A: YES. Q: FROM WHO? A: I THINK IT WAS FROM THE -- YOUR OFFICE. Q: NOW, DID YOU HAVE ANOTHER MEETING WITH MEMBERS OF THE DEFENSE TEAM? A: YES. Q: AFTER THAT TWO- TO THREE-HOUR INTERVIEW WITH PAVELIC AND HOSTETLER? A: YES. Q: AND WHEN WAS THAT? A: IT WAS, UH, ABOUT THREE WEEKS AGO, A MONTH AGO, RIGHT AROUND THERE. Q: AND WHO WAS AT THAT MEETING? A: MY -- BILL GENEGO, MY LAWYER, AND ROBERT SHAPIRO AND MYSELF. Q: AND WHO DID YOU SPEAK TO? A: TO ROBERT SHAPIRO. Q: AND HOW LONG WAS THAT FOR? A: CAN I -- THERE WAS ANOTHER ONE ALSO THAT I DIDN'T GO INTO. IT WAS AT THE OFFICES WITH, UMM, ROBERT SHAPIRO AND CARL DOUGLAS AND BILL GENEGO, BUT I WAS AT THE OFFICE, BUT I DIDN'T GO IN TO MEET. Q: OKAY. YOUR LAWYER MET WITH THE DEFENDANT'S LAWYERS? A: THEY -- THEY WENT INTO A MEETING ROOM, YES, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS ABOUT. Q: AND HOW LONG DID THAT LAST? A: I THINK HALF HOUR, 40 MINUTES. Q: OKAY. AND WAS IT AFTER THAT THAT YOU HAD ANOTHER INTERVIEW WITH MR. SHAPIRO? A: YES. Q: AND WHO WAS PRESENT AT THAT INTERVIEW? A: MYSELF, BILL GENEGO, MY LAWYER, AND ROBERT SHAPIRO. Q: HOW LONG DID THAT INTERVIEW LAST? A: OH, 45 MINUTES TO AN HOUR. Q: AND WAS IT TAPE-RECORDED? A: NO. Q: WAS ANYBODY TAKING ANY NOTES THAT YOU COULD SEE? A: UH, MY LAWYER I THINK TOOK NOTES. Q: WHAT ABOUT MR. SHAPIRO? A: I DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW IF HE DID OR NOT. HE WAS GOING THROUGH, UH, PAPERS. Q: UH-HUH. DID HE HAVE AN INVESTIGATOR THERE? A: NO. Q: AND HOW LONG WAS THAT INTERVIEW FOR? A: ABOUT 45 MINUTES TO AN HOUR. Q: AND WHEN DID THAT LAST INTERVIEW, THAT INTERVIEW WITH MR. SHAPIRO TAKE PLACE? A: LIKE THREE WEEKS AGO TO A MONTH. THREE WEEKS AGO I THINK. RIGHT AROUND -- Q: DID YOU HAVE ANOTHER INTERVIEW AFTER THAT WITH MR. SHAPIRO? A: NO. Q: YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF THE DEFENDANT'S FRIEND, DON'T YOU, MR. KAELIN? A: UH, YES. Q: YOU DID BACK IN JANUARY OF '94? A: YES. Q: YOU DID IN JUNE OF '94? A: YES. Q: AND YOU STILL DO? A: I -- I'M STILL A FRIEND. I'M -- I KNOW -- I KNOW MY JOB IS TO BE A HUNDRED PERCENT HONEST, AND THAT'S WHAT I'M GOING TO DO. Q: SINCE THE MURDERS OF RON GOLDMAN AND NICOLE BROWN, CAN YOU TELL US HOW MANY ACTING JOBS YOU'VE ACQUIRED? A: UMM, I THINK FOUR. YOU HAVE -- DO YOU WANT ME TO NAME THEM THAT I KNOW? TALK SOUP. Q: THAT WAS ON E CHANNEL? A: E. Q: YOU HOSTED THAT SHOW? A: YES. THERE WAS A SHOW CALLED THE WATCHER THAT I JUST DID. Q: YOU HAD A ROLE IN THAT SHOW DID YOU? A: YES. THERE WAS A -- THE U.S.A. TODAY. Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT? A: IT WAS LIKE A HOSTING JOB. Q: YOU HOSTED THAT JOB DID YOU? A: YES, WITH A COMEDIAN WOMAN. Q: WHAT ELSE? A: I DID A CURRENT AFFAIR PIECE. Q: AND WHAT DID THAT PIECE CONSIST OF? A: JUST ABOUT MYSELF. NOTHING ABOUT THE CASE. Q: DID YOU DISCUSS YOUR ROLE AS A WITNESS THOUGH? NOT THE TESTIMONY THAT YOU WERE GOING TO GIVE, BUT THE FACT THAT YOU WERE A WITNESS? A: WELL, I DIDN'T SAY -- THEY KNEW I WAS A WITNESS. I DIDN'T TALK ABOUT BEING A WITNESS. IT WAS ME SAYING -- I MEAN THEY KNEW I WAS A WITNESS. I SAID THINGS -- I NEVER SAW IT, THE SHOW. I DON'T KNOW WHAT WENT ON, BUT, UH, THEY KNEW I WAS A WITNESS AND YES, THERE WAS LIKE MEET -- Q: THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION OF THAT? A: YES. Q: AND HOW MANY SEGMENTS WAS THAT? A: I DID IT IN A DAY AND A HALF. Q: DO YOU KNOW OVER HOW MANY DAYS IT AIRED ON THE TELEVISION? A: THREE. Q: OKAY. AND WHAT ELSE DID YOU DO? A: UMM -- UMM, WHAT IS -- Q: ANY FEATURE FILMS? A: YEAH. ONE CALLED FOR LIFE OR DEATH. Q: WHAT KIND OF ROLE? LEADING ROLE? SUPPORTING ROLE? A: SUPPORTING. Q: AND ANYTHING ELSE? A: I THINK THAT'S IT. Q: DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING PLANNED FOR THE FUTURE ON TELEVISION? A: I HOPE SO. I MEAN I HAVE -- ON T.V., THERE'S A FILM SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. IT'S THE 16TH MINUTE -- Q: UH-HUH. A: -- IF IT'S GOING TO GO -- NOTHING IS SET. Q: AND ARE YOU GOING TO PLAY A LEADING ROLE IN THAT? A: UH, THAT HASN'T BEEN DECIDED, BUT PROBABLY. Q: AND WHAT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE YOU'VE DONE ON TELEVISION THAT'S GOING TO AIR? FOX T.V.? A: OH, THAT'S GO -- A VOICE, A VOICE OVER. Q: FOR AN ANIMATED SERIES? A: CARTOON CALLED EEK THE CAT. MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, MAY I BE PERMITTED TO GO OVER SO I CAN COMPLETE THIS, FOR A FEW MINUTES? THE COURT: A LITTLE. HOW MUCH OVER? MS. CLARK: FIVE MINUTES. THE COURT: GO. MS. CLARK: THANK YOU. OOPS. SIX MINUTES. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, YOU'VE BEEN ATTEMPTING TO ESTABLISH YOURSELF IN THE FIELD OF ACTING FOR HOW MANY YEARS, SIR? A: A LONG TIME. Q: MORE THAN 10 YEARS? A: YES. Q: WOULD IT BE FAIR TO SAY THAT YOU'VE HAD MORE ACTING ROLES IN THE LAST NINE MONTHS SINCE THE MURDERS OF RON GOLDMAN AND NICOLE BROWN THAN YOU HAVE IN THE LAST 10 YEARS? A: YES. Q: WHEN THE DEFENDANT CAME BACK FROM THE RECITAL ON JUNE THE 12TH AFTER SEEING NICOLE, WHAT WAS HIS DEMEANOR? A: FROM THE RECITAL? Q: THAT'S RIGHT. A: HE WAS UPSET ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE SIDNEY AND HE MENTIONED THE COMMENT ABOUT THE OUTFITS. Q: AND WAS HE UPSET ABOUT -- WAS HE ANGRY WITH NICOLE? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. LEADING. THE WITNESS: IT -- THE COURT: HOLD ON. HOLD ON. SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WAS HIS ATTITUDE ABOUT NICOLE? A: WELL, IT WAS OVER, THE RELATIONSHIP WAS OVER WAS MENTIONED, THAT NICOLE AND HIM WERE NO LONGER TOGETHER. Q: AND IN WHAT TONE OF VOICE DID HE SAY THAT? A: IT WAS MATTER OF FACT, "NICOLE AND I ARE OVER." Q: HE WAS NOT ANGRY WITH HER? A: IT WASN'T -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY ANGRY, WHAT ANGER IS. Q: WAS HE YELLING? A: NO. Q: WAS HE SCREAMING? A: NO. Q: HAVE YOU EVER TOLD ANYBODY THAT HE WAS YELLING AND SCREAMING ABOUT NICOLE WHEN HE CAME BACK FROM THE RECITAL ON JUNE THE 12TH? A: NO. Q: WHAT ABOUT HIS DEMEANOR WHEN HE LEFT, WAS GETTING READY TO LEAVE FOR THE AIRPORT AFTER 11:00 O'CLOCK? HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE IT? A: RUSHED. Q: IN A HURRY? A: YES. Q: DID HE SEEM TO BE AGITATED OR UPSET? A: THAT HE WAS IN A RUSH. DEFINITELY WAS TRYING TO HURRY. Q: DID HE SEEM VERY FRAZZLED? A: WELL, WE -- WE TRIED TO GET THE FLASHLIGHT. WE DIDN'T GET THE FLASHLIGHT. IT WAS OOP, DIDN'T GET IT AND HE WENT TO THE LIMO. Q: UH-HUH. A: AND "FRAZZLED" I DON'T THINK WAS THE WORD, BUT HE DIDN'T SET THE ALARM. SO HIS MIND WAS ELSEWHERE FOR NOT SETTING THE ALARM. Q: WAS -- WAS HIS DEMEANOR AT THAT TIME UNUSUAL BASED ON WHAT YOU HAD SEEN OF HIM ON PRIOR OCCASIONS? A: WELL, THAT'S ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES I'VE SEEN HIM LIKE LATE FOR SOMETHING LIKE A FLIGHT. SO I CAN'T COMPARE TO. BUT YEAH, HE WAS IN A HURRY AND IT WAS -- IT WAS FRAZZLED TO GET IN THE CAR. Q: DO YOU RECALL TELLING ANYONE THAT HE WAS MORE NERVOUS AND FRAZZLED THAN YOU HAD EVER SEEN HIM BEFORE, THAT YOU HAD NEVER SEEN HIM IN THAT CONDITION BEFORE? A: NO. I DIDN'T SAY THAT. Q: WHEN YOU SPOKE TO THE DEFENDANT BEFORE THE RECITAL, DO YOU RECALL THE SUBJECT MATTER OF HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH NICOLE COMING UP? A: THAT CAME UP A FEW TIMES, THAT IT WAS OVER, THE RELATIONSHIP WAS OVER. Q: CAME UP A FEW TIMES DURING THAT DAY DID IT? A: YES. IT CAME UP -- JUST THAT WAS PART OF THE CONVERSATION. IT WAS, UH, THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, HE HAD A WHITE PICKET -- HE WANTED A WHITE PICKET FENCE, A FAMILY, BUT IT WAS OVER AND HE WASN'T SURE ABOUT PAULA, IF SHE WAS THE ONE. Q: UH-HUH. AND WHEN HE MADE THOSE STATEMENTS ABOUT IT BEING OVER WITH NICOLE, WAS HE ANGRY? A: I THINK HE WAS -- SAYING IT WAS OVER, IT COULD HAVE BEEN INSIDE, BUT I CAN'T -- I COULDN'T THINK FOR HIM WHAT HE WAS -- WHAT HE WAS THINKING. HE COULD HAVE BEEN UPSET AND ANGRY. MR. SHAPIRO: MOTION TO STRIKE THAT AS CALLING FOR SPECULATION. THE COURT: NO. AS BEING NONRESPONSIVE. MOTION IS GRANTED. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, YOU ARE TO DISREGARD THAT LAST COMMENT. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHEN HE MADE THOSE STATEMENTS THAT WE REFERRED TO ABOUT NICOLE, CAN YOU DESCRIBE HIS BODY LANGUAGE? A: THERE'S -- THERE'S DIFFERENT TIMES. ONE WAS SITTING AT A CHAIR. Q: LET ME ASK YOU THIS, SIR. A: OKAY. MR. SHAPIRO: I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THE VAGUENESS OF THAT QUESTION. THE COURT: WELL, WE'RE GOING ON TO SOMETHING -- THERE WAS A NONRESPONSIVE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION. SO WE'LL IGNORE IT AT THIS POINT. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHEN HE MADE THE REMARK TO YOU AFTER THE RECITAL ABOUT NICOLE AND HER TIGHT DRESSES, DID HE CLENCH HIS TEETH? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. LEADING. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. MS. CLARK: OTHERWISE IT'S GOING TO BE VAGUE. THE COURT: REPHRASE THE QUESTION. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WAS THE DEFENDANT'S PHYSICAL DEMEANOR, HIS PHYSICAL BODY MOVEMENTS WHEN HE TALKED TO YOU ABOUT NICOLE WEARING TIGHT DRESSES? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. COMPOUND, ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU CAN ANSWER. THE COURT: YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION. THE WITNESS: OH, THAT HE WAS UPSET, HE MADE A POINT TO SAY THE TIGHT DRESSES THAT I MENTIONED BEFORE. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU SEE HIM CLENCH HIS FISTS OR HIS TEETH? A: I DIDN'T SEE -- I DIDN'T SEE LIKE THAT, CLENCHING HIS -- HIS FISTS OR HIS TEETH. HE WAS UPSET AND IT WAS LIKE, "OH, THOSE -- WEARING THOSE TIGHT OUTFITS WHEN I MENTIONED -- WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO WHEN THEY'RE GRANDMAS?" Q: UH-HUH. MS. CLARK: IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LITTLE LONGER THAN I THOUGHT, YOUR HONOR. I GIVE UP. THE COURT: FIVE MINUTES, 10 MINUTES? MS. CLARK: 15 OR 20 I THINK. I'M SORRY. I WAS HOPEFUL, BUT -- MR. SHAPIRO: I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO FINISHING. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S FINISH. THE COURT REPORTER: I NEED TO CHANGE PAPER. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: 1492, WHAT'S OUR -- JUROR NO. 1492: I NEED ANOTHER NOTEBOOK. THE COURT: NEED ANOTHER NOTEBOOK. DEPUTY MAGNERA, ANOTHER NOTEBOOK. NEED TWO? JUST ONE. JUST 1492? ARE YOU USING BOTH SIDES? (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MADAM REPORTER, ARE YOU READY? THE COURT REPORTER: YES, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: MISS CLARK. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR? (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) THE COURT: LET ME JUST ADVISE COUNSEL, BECAUSE OF THE ARRANGEMENTS WITH THE JURY, WE DO HAVE AN ABSOLUTE 4:00 O'CLOCK LIMIT TODAY. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM AFTER GOING TO GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE, WHAT WAS THE FIRST THING -- AND YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT THERE. A: ON MONDAY? Q: YES. A: OKAY. Q: WHAT WAS THE FIRST THING HE SAID TO YOU? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. HE'S ALREADY DESCRIBED IT FOR THE RECORD. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: THAT WE WERE WATCHING T.V., BUT THAT -- THE T.V. WAS ON AND I WAS ON THE SIDE, BUT NO ONE KNEW I WAS IN THE ROOM YET. AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT STATION IT WAS, BUT, UH, THEY WERE DOING A TIME FRAME AND IT WAS JUST ABOUT THE -- THE TRIP TO MC DONALD'S AND IT MENTIONED SOMETHING ABOUT THE TIME FRAME AND THAT THEY MENTIONED A TIME. THE TIME WAS ABOUT 9:00, 9:40 THAT I HAD NOT SEEN HIM, AND O.J. SAID THAT -- HE SAID, "NO, KATO KNOWS THAT I WAS -- I WAS IN THE HOUSE." Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT DID HE SAY TO YOU? A: THAT -- THAT WAS IT. "KATO, YOU KNOW I WAS IN THE HOUSE." Q: DO YOU RECALL TELLING GRANT CRAMER THAT THE DEFENDANT SAID TO YOU, "OH, THANK GOD, YOU CAN TELL THEM I WAS HOME ALL THE TIME"? A: NO. THAT'S -- BUT I SAID IT, THAT, "KATO KNOWS THAT I WAS HOME." Q: THAT'S WHAT HE SAID? MR. SHAPIRO: THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: IS THAT WHAT HE SAID? A: YES. Q: AND YOUR RESPONSE WAS? A: THAT I DIDN'T SEE AND -- GO IN THE HOUSE BECAUSE I WENT TO MY GUEST ROOM. Q: UH-HUH. WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO THE DEFENDANT ABOUT -- EARLIER IN THE DAY ABOUT PLAYING GOLF AND PLAYING CARDS, HE TALKED TO YOU ABOUT HIS GOLF GAME? A: UH, IT COULD HAVE BEEN THE FACT THAT HE GOLFED. I ASKED HIM HOW HE DID. HE SAID HE DID OKAY. Q: HE SAID HE DID OKAY? A: I THINK SO, YEAH. Q: DID HE COMPLAIN ABOUT ANY PAIN IN HIS ARMS OR HIS HANDS AT THAT TIME? A: NO. Q: LATER ON IN THE EVENING, DID HE COMPLAIN, WHEN YOU WENT TO MC DONALD'S, ABOUT HAVING CUT OR BRUISED HIS HANDS IN ANY WAY? A: NO. Q: WHEN HE REFERRED TO NICOLE BEFORE THE RECITAL, WHAT WORDS DID HE USE TO DESCRIBE HER? A: BEFORE THE 2:30 HOUR OR SO? UMM, THERE WASN'T LIKE A LOT OF TALK ABOUT IT THAT HOUR. IT WAS -- THE 2:30 HOUR WAS KIND OF CASUAL TALK ABOUT THE GOLF GAME. IT WAS -- YOU KNOW, THEY WERE OVER. I MEAN I'VE HEARD THAT BEFORE. SO I NEVER, YOU KNOW, GAVE IT MUCH -- OH, IT'S OVER AGAIN OR NOT BECAUSE THEY GOT BACK AND FORTH, IT WAS BACK AND FORTH. SO IT WAS LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOU NEVER KNEW IF IT WAS OVER OR NOT. Q: UH-HUH. A: I MEAN I DIDN'T KNOW. Q: DID THIS TIME SEEM DIFFERENT TO YOU? A: NOT AT THE 2:30, NO. Q: WHEN DID IT SEEM DIFFERENT TO YOU? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE. THE WITNESS: WELL, I -- THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION. Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHEN, IF EVER, DID IT SEEM DIFFERENT TO YOU? A: SEE, THAT'S WHAT I DON'T KNOW. AND DIFFERENT, BECAUSE IT WAS OFF AND ON A LOT. Q: YOU SAID NOT AT 2:30, IT DID NOT SEEM LIKE THIS TIME IT WAS DIFFERENT. A: WELL, AFTER THAT, THE RECITAL, THERE WAS A COMMENT ABOUT SOMETHING THAT WAS MORE DIRECT ABOUT THE DRESSES. BUT STILL, THAT -- THAT DIDN'T -- THAT DIDN'T REALLY MEAN IT WAS OVER. IN MY HEAD, I WAS THINKING THAT MAYBE IT'S OVER FOR THAT DAY OR TWO, BUT I COULDN'T, YOU KNOW, ASSUME THAT IT WAS OVER FOR GOOD. Q: DID THE DEFENDANT EVER TELL YOU ABOUT A BRACELET HE BOUGHT FOR NICOLE IN MAY OF 1994 FOR HER BIRTHDAY? A: I KNEW SOMETHING ABOUT A BRACELET, BUT I DON'T KNOW THE WHOLE STORY ON THE BRACELET. Q: WHAT DID THE DEFENDANT TELL YOU ABOUT THAT? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR HEARSAY. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: FROM WHAT I REMEMBER, AND IT'S NOT EXACTLY, IS THAT THE BRACELET WAS FOR NICOLE AND I THOUGHT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A BIRTHDAY GIFT BECAUSE HER BIRTHDAY WAS IN MAY. Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WAS IT -- DID HE DESCRIBE IT TO YOU AT ALL? A: I DON'T REMEMBER THAT. I -- I KNOW IT WAS DIAMONDS AND EXPENSIVE, BUT I DON'T -- I'M NOT INTO JEWELRY, SO I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION REALLY. Q: SO HE TOLD YOU HE BOUGHT HER AN EXPENSIVE DIAMOND BRACELET FOR HER BIRTHDAY IN MAY OF 1994; IS THAT RIGHT? A: UH-HUH. AT SOME POINT, I KNEW ABOUT A BRACELET. I DON'T THINK SPECIFICALLY HE TOLD ME. I THINK I HEARD HE BOUGHT HER A BRACELET. Q: DID HE TELL YOU WHAT EVER HAPPENED WITH THAT BRACELET? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: THAT I KNOW IT WENT TO PAULA. Q: BY MS. CLARK: THE DEFENDANT GAVE IT TO PAULA AFTER HE GAVE IT TO NICOLE? A: I BELIEVE SO. Q: AND DO YOU KNOW HOW THE DEFENDANT CAME TO HAVE THAT BRACELET BACK AFTER HE GAVE IT TO NICOLE? A: I DON'T. I THINK IT WAS GIVEN BACK. MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. MOTION TO STRIKE. THE COURT: SUSTAIN. JURORS TO DISREGARD THAT AS BEING A SPECULATIVE ANSWER. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DURING THE -- DURING THE AFTERNOON, DID THE DEFENDANT COMPLAIN TO YOU THAT HE WAS UNABLE TO SHUFFLE THE CARDS AT THE COUNTRY CLUB THAT DAY WHEN HE PLAYED CARDS AFTER PLAYING GOLF? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECALL HAVING ANY CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE PHYSICAL CONDITION OF THE DEFENDANT'S HANDS AT THE RIVIERA COUNTRY CLUB ON THE DATE OF JUNE THE 12TH? A: NO. Q: YOU AND THE DEFENDANT, WHEN YOU WALKED OUT TO MC DONALD'S, DID YOU WALK BEHIND HIM? WHEN YOU WALKED OUT TO GO TO THE CAR TO GO TO MC DONALD'S, DID YOU WALK BEHIND HIM? A: YES. Q: AND DID YOU WALK THROUGH THE POOL AREA BEHIND HIM? MR. SHAPIRO: OBJECTION. LEADING. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: THE POOL -- WE WALKED TO THE BACK DOOR -- Q: BY MS. CLARK: YES. A: -- AND THROUGH THE BAR AREA. Q: OKAY. A: YES. Q: AND YOU WERE WALKING BEHIND HIM, WERE YOU? A: YES. Q: AND DID YOU -- AND WHERE DID YOU WALK THEN? A: TO THE KITCHEN NOOK OUT THE DOOR TO THE CAR. Q: AND YOU WERE WALKING BEHIND HIM THE WHOLE TIME? A: YEAH. PRETTY MUCH SO. I THINK HE WAS LEADING. Q: OKAY. DID HE WALK FUNNY? A: NO. Q: WAS HE LIMPING? A: NO. Q: AND WHEN YOU GOT INTO THE CAR, YOU WENT TO -- YOU INDICATED YOU WENT TO A MC DONALD'S ON SANTA MONICA BOULEVARD? A: YES. Q: IS THAT THE CLOSEST MC DONALD'S TO ROCKINGHAM? A: NO. Q: WHICH ONE IS CLOSER? A: THERE -- THERE IS ONE ON I BELIEVE WILSHIRE. Q: ON WILSHIRE? A: YES. Q: BUT YOU DIDN'T GO TO THAT ONE? A: NO. Q: WHO CHOSE THE MC -- WHICH MC DONALD'S TO GO TO? WHO CHOSE THE PLACE TO GO AND EAT? A: O.J. Q: AND YOU'RE SURE YOU DID NOT GO TO BURGER KING? A: OH, YES. Q: YOU WENT TO MC DONALD'S? A: NO. MC DONALD'S. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: CERTAINLY. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MS. CLARK: MAY WE APPROACH? THE COURT: YES, WITHOUT THE COURT REPORTER. (A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS FOR THE AFTERNOON AT THIS POINT. AS YOU KNOW, WE'VE HAD A MODIFIED COURT SCHEDULE, A LITTLE SHORTER THAN NORMAL THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, AND WE ARE GOING TO BE MODIFYING IT AGAIN. BUT I'LL CHAT WITH YOU ABOUT THAT LATER IN THE WEEK. WE ARE GOING TO STAND IN RECESS THEN UNTIL 9:00 O'CLOCK TOMORROW MORNING. MR. KAELIN, YOU ARE ORDERED NOT TO DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANY OTHER PERSON OTHER THAN THE ATTORNEYS ON THE CASE. YOU ARE ORDERED TO BE HERE TOMORROW MORNING, 8:45. THE WITNESS: YES. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT? ALL RIGHT. WE'LL STAND IN RECESS, TOMORROW MORNING, 9:00 O'CLOCK. AND WE'LL HAVE ANOTHER DNA DISCOVERY MOTION TOMORROW AT 3:15. COURT IS IN RECESS. (AT 3:20 P.M., AN ADJOURNMENT WAS TAKEN UNTIL, THURSDAY, MARCH 23, 1995, 9:00 A.M.) SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, ) REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 22, 1995
PAGES 19799 THROUGH 20012, INCLUSIVE APPEARANCES: (SEE PAGE 2)
JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR #4588 APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PEOPLE: GIL GARCETTI, DISTRICT ATTORNEY
FOR THE DEFENDANT: ROBERT L. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
JOHNNIE L. COCHRAN, JR., ESQUIRE
GERALD F. UELMEN, ESQUIRE I N D E X INDEX FOR VOLUME 112 PAGES 19799 - 20012 ----------------------------------------------------- DAY DATE SESSION PAGE VOL.
WEDNESDAY MARCH 22, 1995 A.M. 19799 112 ----------------------------------------------------- LEGEND:
MS. CLARK - MC ----------------------------------------------------- CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES
PEOPLE'S
KAELIN, BRIAN 112 KATO ----------------------------------------------------- ALPHABETICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES
PEOPLE'S
KAELIN, BRIAN 112 KATO EXHIBITS
PEOPLE'S FOR IN EXHIBIT IDENTIFICATION EVIDENCE
130 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19812 112
131 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19812 112
132 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19819 112
133 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19819 112
134 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19819 112
135 - POSTERBOARD 19837 112
136 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19842 112
137 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19850 112
138 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19853 112
138-A - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19854 112
EXHIBITS
PEOPLE'S FOR IN EXHIBIT IDENTIFICATION EVIDENCE
139 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19856 112
139-A - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19854 112
68-A(1) - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19864 112
129-B(1) - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19867 112
140 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19872 112
141 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19953 112
142 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 19957 112
143 - VIDEOTAPE TAKEN 19983 112
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