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LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, MARCH 2, 1995 9:34 A.M.
DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE APPEARANCES: (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.) (JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (PAGES 16770 THROUGH 16779, VOLUME 98A, TRANSCRIBED AND SEALED UNDER SEPARATE COVER.) (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD MORNING, COUNSEL. BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. MR. SIMPSON IS AGAIN PRESENT BEFORE THE COURT WITH HIS COUNSEL, MR. SHAPIRO, MR. COCHRAN, MR. DOUGLAS, MR. BAILEY. THE PEOPLE ARE REPRESENTED BY MR. DARDEN, MISS CLARK, MISS LEWIS. THE MATTER IS HERE TO CONTINUE AND CONCLUDE THE CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION OF ROSA LOPEZ. COUNSEL, IS THERE ANYTHING WE NEED TO PUT ON THE RECORD BEFORE WE INVITE MISS LOPEZ TO REJOIN US? ALL RIGHT. DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE MISS LOPEZ, PLEASE. (BRIEF PAUSE.) MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, WOULD YOU KINDLY EXCUSE FROM THE COURTROOM MR. MC NALLY, IRMA AND MR. PAVELIC, IF HE IS HERE? THE COURT: YES. ANY OTHER PERSONS WHO MAY BE CALLED TO TESTIFY REGARDING THIS WITNESS WILL BE EXCUSED FROM THE COURTROOM. MR. DARDEN: I'M SORRY, MR. MC KENNA. (POTENTIAL WITNESSES EXCLUDED) THE COURT: MISS LOPEZ, WOULD YOU PLEASE RESUME THE WITNESS STAND. ROSA MARIA LOPEZ, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY SWORN, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS: THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD MORNING, MISS LOPEZ. THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, SIR. THE COURT: YOU ARE REMINDED THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH. THE WITNESS: YES, SIR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S HAVE IT QUIET IN THE COURTROOM, PLEASE. AND MR. COCHRAN. ALL RIGHT. GOOD MORNING, MR. COCHRAN. YOU MAY CONCLUDE YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR. AT YOUR REQUEST, YOUR HONOR, I AM NOW WIRED. LET ME MAKE SURE THAT SHE IS PICKING UP MY VOICE. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THIS WILL ENABLE ME, I UNDERSTAND, TO MOVE AROUND AS NEEDED. THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: YES. DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. COCHRAN: Q: GOOD MORNING, MISS LOPEZ. A: GOOD MORNING, SIR. Q: ARE YOU GLAD TO BE HERE TODAY? A: NO, SIR. Q: WHY NOT? MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I WOULD PREFER -- I HEARD THAT MISS CLARK SAID THAT MY LIFE WAS BETTER HERE, BUT I WANT TO TELL HER SOMETHING. MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THIS IS ALL IRRELEVANT, YOUR HONOR. IT IS NONRESPONSIVE AND IT IS IRRELEVANT. THE COURT: MISS CLARK, ARE YOU CONDUCTING THIS? MR. DARDEN: IT IS IRRELEVANT, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: IT IS. IT IS NON -- IT IS NONRESPONSIVE; HOWEVER, MISS CLARK, I WOULD APPRECIATE -- THIS IS THE THIRD TIME WE HAVE DONE THIS ON THIS WITNESS. MS. CLARK: I APOLOGIZE, YOUR HONOR. MR. COCHRAN: I WILL ASK ANOTHER QUESTION. THE COURT: PLEASE. Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU STILL WOULD RATHER NOT BE HERE; IS THAT RIGHT, MA'AM? A: YES. Q: AND ARE YOU STILL PLANNING TO LEAVE THE LOS ANGELES AREA AS SOON AS YOU FINISH TESTIFYING? A: YES, SIR. Q: NOW, WHEN LAST WE ASKED YOU SOME QUESTIONS, I GUESS THAT WAS ON TUESDAY, YOU DESCRIBED A DETECTIVE WHO CAME TO YOUR DOOR IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF JUNE 13, 1994. DO YOU RECALL THAT. MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE. SHE HAS GIVEN NO DESCRIPTION. MR. COCHRAN: SHE TALKED WITH A DETECTIVE. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. REPHRASE THE QUESTION. MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. Q: YOU TALKED ABOUT A DETECTIVE WHO CAME TO YOUR DOOR IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF JUNE 13; IS THAT CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND YOU TOLD US THIS DETECTIVE WAS NAMED MARK FUHRMAN; IS THAT CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND IF YOU WERE TO SEE A VIDEO OF THIS PARTICULAR PERSON, WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY HIM? A: YES, SIR. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE MR. HARRIS CALL UP A PORTION OF A VIDEO. MR. DARDEN: I WOULD OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. TO SHOW A WITNESS OF A VIDEO OF A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL WOULD BE UNDULY SUGGESTIVE, YOUR HONOR, AND LEADING. MR. COCHRAN: SHE HAS GIVEN US THE NAME, YOUR HONOR. IF SHE CAN IDENTIFY IT, SO BE IT. IF SHE CAN'T, SO BE IT. MR. DARDEN: IN ADDITION, IF I MIGHT, I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE EXHIBITS BEFORE THEY ARE SHOWN TO THE WITNESS. MR. COCHRAN: HE HAS SEEN THIS. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S DISPLAY IT ON COUNSEL'S VIDEO ONLY. MR. COCHRAN: NOT UP ON THE WITNESS' MONITOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.) MR. COCHRAN: COUNSEL HAS SEEN THIS DURING THE OPENING STATEMENT. MR. DARDEN: TO SHOW THE WITNESS A SINGLE PHOTOGRAPH, YOUR HONOR, IS UNDULY SUGGESTIVE. IN ADDITION, THERE IS A NAME FLASHING DIRECTLY ACROSS THE INDIVIDUAL'S CHEST THERE. MR. COCHRAN: I CAN SHOW THE FIRST PART WITHOUT THE NAME, YOUR HONOR. MR. DARDEN: THE PERSON IS SEATED AT THE WITNESS STAND WITH A MICROPHONE, JUST LIKE THIS ONE IS. IT IS SO SUGGESTIVE, IT IS SUGGESTIBLE YOUR HONOR. MR. COCHRAN: I CAN ASK A COUPLE OF FOUNDATIONAL QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: PLEASE. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q: AFTER THIS DETECTIVE, WHOM YOU SAID WAS MARK FUHRMAN, CAME TO YOUR RESIDENCE, DID YOU EVER HAVE OCCASION TO SEE THAT INDIVIDUAL IN COURT ON TELEVISION AT ANY TIME AFTER JUNE 13, 1994? MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS LEADING. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU EVER -- YOUR HONOR, MAY I ASK THIS QUESTION? DID YOU EVER SEE THIS PERSON ON TELEVISION AT ANY TIME? THE COURT: YES. THE WITNESS: YES, SIR. Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: AND WHEN WAS THAT? A: WHEN HE CAME TO TESTIFY. Q: AND HOW DID YOU SEE HIM WHEN HE CAME TO TESTIFY? A: THE SAME WAY, LIKE WHEN I SAW HIM AT THE DOOR. Q: AND WAS IT THE SAME PERSON? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND YOU SAW THIS ON TELEVISION? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD RECOGNIZE THIS PERSON AGAIN IF YOU SAW A VIDEO OF THAT PERSON? A: YES, SIR. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD ASK LEAVE TO SHOW THE VIDEO, AT LEAST THE FIRST PART OF IT. THE COURT: HAVE YOU SHOWN THIS TO HER BEFORE? MR. COCHRAN: NO, I HAVE NOT SHOWN IT TO HER BEFORE. MR. DARDEN: SAME OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. GOES TO THE WEIGHT. MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU STOP IT BEFORE THERE IS ANY NAMES COMING ACROSS THE SCREEN? THE COURT: WELL, CAN WE JUST PLAY IT -- MR. HARRIS, AND JUST FREEZE IT AT THAT POINT AND THEN PUT IT ON THE SCREEN. ALL RIGHT. MR. COCHRAN: FREEZE THAT. CAN YOU FREEZE THAT? MR. DARDEN: IT IS STILL ON THE SCREEN. I WOULD OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. YOU SHOULD PRECLUDE COUNSEL FROM ASKING THE WITNESS ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS REGARDING THIS VIDEO. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. OVERRULED. CAN WE FREEZE THAT? MR. DARDEN: SHE HAS ALREADY SEEN IT ALL. MR. COCHRAN: HAVE YOU FROZEN THAT? Q: NOW, YOU HAVEN'T LOOKED AT YOUR MONITOR YET, HAVE YOU? A: NO. Q: OKAY. CAN YOU LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR NOW? A: YES. Q: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PERSON IN THAT -- DEPICTED IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH THERE, MA'AM? A: YES. Q: AND WHO IS THAT PERSON? A: MARK FUHRMAN. Q: AND IS THAT -- WHO IS THAT MAN IN RELATION TO -- IS THAT THE SAME MAN YOU SAW ON JUNE 13, 1994? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND IS THAT THE INDIVIDUAL YOU HAD THE CONVERSATION WITH THAT MORNING? A: YES, SIR. Q: IS THAT THE SAME PERSON WHO PROMISED YOU THAT LAPD OFFICERS WOULD COME BACK AND TALK TO YOU? MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, "PROMISED." THE COURT: SUSTAINED. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE IF WE COULD MARK THIS -- I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THAT PRINTED AND MARKED THIS AS DEFENDANT'S NEXT IN ORDER, IF THE COURT PLEASES. THE COURT: YES. MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR -- THE COURT: 1046. MR. DARDEN: WOULD THE COURT REQUIRE MR. COCHRAN TO MARK THE ENTIRE VIDEO FOR PURPOSES OF THIS? THE WITNESS DID SEE THE ENTIRE VIDEO. MR. COCHRAN: NOT THE ENTIRE -- MR. DARDEN: SHE SAW MR. FUHRMAN'S NAME. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. HARRIS, YOU WILL MAKE THAT AVAILABLE TO US. MR. DARDEN: IF IT IS NOT GOING TO BE MARKED BY MR. COCHRAN, I WOULD LIKE TO MARK IT PEOPLE'S NEXT NOT. MR. COCHRAN: I HAVE NO PROBLEM. 1046 IS THE VIDEO AND 1046-A WILL BE THE STILL FROM THE VIDEO. (DEFT'S 1046 FOR ID = VIDEO OF MARK FUHRMAN) (DEFT'S 1046-A FOR ID = PRINT OF VIDEO OF M. FUHRMAN) MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU PRINT OUT THE STILL? MR. HARRIS: YES. THE COURT: PROCEED. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR. Q: NOW, YOU MENTIONED AT SOME POINT, MISS LOPEZ, THAT YOU KNEW SOMETHING ABOUT THE INSIDE OF MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE. DO YOU RECALL THAT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND WOULD YOU TELL THE COURT WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAD EVER BEEN INSIDE OF THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE AT ROCKINGHAM? A: YES, YOUR HONOR. Q: AND WHAT WAS THE OCCASION -- OCCASION OR OCCASIONS THAT YOU WENT INSIDE THAT RESIDENCE? A: BECAUSE MICHELLE WOULD INVITE ME TO COME OVER FOR TEA WHEN WE WERE ALONE. Q: AND WHO WAS MICHELLE? A: SHE WAS MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSEKEEPER. Q: AND WHEN YOU -- ON THE OCCASIONS WHEN YOU GO FOR TEA, WAS MR. SIMPSON EVER AT HOME DURING THOSE TIMES? A: NO. Q: ALL RIGHT. DID YOU EVER HAVE ANY OTHER OCCASION TO INTERACT WITH MICHELLE OR DO ANYTHING AT THE SIMPSON HOME? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND TELL US ABOUT THAT, IF YOU WILL. A: MICHELLE WASN'T FEELING -- ONE DAY SHE CALLED ME ON THE PHONE, THAT SHE DIDN'T FEEL VERY WELL AND SHE WANTED ME TO DO HER THE FAVOR TO MAKE MR. SIMPSON'S BED. Q: AND DO YOU KNOW WHEN THAT WAS? A: NO, I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: ON HOW MANY OCCASIONS DID IT HAPPEN THAT YOU HELPED HER OUT BY MAKING MR. SIMPSON'S BED? A: ONE TIME. Q: AND WAS HE HOME ON THAT OCCASION? A: NO. Q: AND THAT WAS THE ONLY TIME? A: YES, SIR. Q: NOW, ON TUESDAY YOU DESCRIBED FOR US THAT AFTER TEN O'CLOCK YOU CAME OUT WITH THE DOG AND WALKED THE DOG IN THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE. DO YOU RECALL THAT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND WHEN YOU WERE UP IN THE FRONT OF THE SALINGER'S HOME ON ROCKINGHAM WITH THE DOG WERE YOU ABLE, FROM THE PLACE YOU WERE WALKING THE DOG, ABLE TO SEE THE BRONCO? A: YES, SIR. Q: WITH REGARD TO THIS DOG, IS THE DOG -- IS THAT A YOUNG DOG OR AN OLD DOG OR WHAT ABOUT THAT DOG? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. I ASKED MR. SALINGER THE AGE OF THE DOG AND I THINK HE SAID SOMETHING LIKE HE IS 34, 39 YEARS OLD, I DON'T REMEMBER, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. (IN ENGLISH) SEVEN YEARS SOMETHING, I DON'T KNOW. THE INTERPRETER: SEVEN YEARS, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. I DON'T KNOW. Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. ONE OF THE REASONS I ASKED YOU THAT WAS YOU SAID SOMETHING ABOUT THE DOG BIT HIMSELF OR SCRATCHED HIMSELF. MR. DARDEN: IS THAT A QUESTION? MR. COCHRAN: IF I CAN FINISH. Q: YOU MENTIONED THAT THE DOG HAD SOME KIND OF A COLLAR ON BECAUSE OF SOME PROPENSITY OR SOME INCLINATION TO BITE OR SCRATCH ITSELF. MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. IS THAT A QUESTION? MR. COCHRAN: YES. THE COURT: YES. SHE CAN SAY YES OR NO. IT IS ASKING FOR AN AFFIRMATION OF THAT. ALSO, WE HAVE HEARD TESTIMONY ABOUT IT ALREADY? THE WITNESS: YES. Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, BACK IN JUNE OF 1994 DID YOU HAVE A FRIEND BY THE NAME OF SYLVIA? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND AT THAT TIME DID YOU KNOW SYLVIA'S LAST NAME? A: NO. Q: DID YOU SEE SYLVIA IN COURT HERE I GUESS ON TUESDAY AFTERNOON? A: YES. Q: IS THAT THE SAME SYLVIA THAT YOU KNEW BACK IN JUNE OF 1994? A: YES, SIR. Q: WAS SYLVIA A FRIEND OF YOURS IN JUNE OF 1994? A: YES, SIR. MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, EXCUSE ME, BUT I THOUGHT MR. COCHRAN WAS NOT ALLOWED TO GO INTO THIS AREA ON DIRECT. MR. COCHRAN: I THOUGHT THE COURT HAD INDICATED -- MAY WE APPROACH? THE COURT: YES, PLEASE, WITH THE COURT REPORTER. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:) THE COURT: WE ARE OVER AT THE SIDE BAR. AND MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT BECAUSE OF THE LATE DISCLOSURE OF SYLVIA THAT YOU WERE PRECLUDED FROM GOING INTO HER UNLESS AND UNTIL THE PROSECUTION DECIDES TO GO INTO IT. MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN: THERE IS A MOTION TO STRIKE THE LAST TWO QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. MR. COCHRAN: JUST ASKED IF SHE KNEW HER, A FRIEND. I CERTAINLY WILL ABIDE BY THAT. I THOUGHT YOU SAID THAT -- THE COURT: BUT THEN IF THEY MENTION IT ON CROSS-EXAMINATION, THEN OBVIOUSLY YOU CAN GO ON REDIRECT. MR. COCHRAN: WHILE WE ARE UP HERE -- MR. DARDEN: MOTION TO STRIKE THE LAST TWO QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS RELATIVE TO SYLVIA. MR. COCHRAN: I THINK THAT I HAVE NOT GONE INTO IT. I JUST ASKED IF SHE KNEW HER. THE COURT: WELL, YES AND NO, BUT I MEAN, YOU DON'T WANT THAT IN THE RECORD, THAT SHE KNOWS HER AND THAT IS THE PERSON? MR. DARDEN: I WOULD LIKE TO DO IT MY WAY. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE MOTION IS GRANTED. AS A MATTER OF PRACTICALITY, IF YOU WANT TO ASK THE SAME QUESTIONS LATER, IT JUST SEEMS SILLY. MR. COCHRAN: ANOTHER QUESTION IS WHILE WE ARE UP HERE -- MR. DARDEN: WHAT ABOUT THIS THING, BY THE WAY, (INDICATING)? THE COURT: NO. WHOEVER QUESTIONS THE WITNESS HAS TO WEAR THAT BECAUSE WHEN YOU MOVE AROUND WE DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO -- MR. DARDEN: I GUESS MY QUESTION IS ARE THEY LISTENING TO THE SIDE BAR? THE COURT: NO. SIDE BAR SHOULD BE TURNED OFF. MR. COCHRAN: WELL, DO YOU WANT TO CHECK, JUDGE? THE COURT: LET ME JUST CHECK WITH THE SOUND PERSON. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) THE COURT: SOUND PERSON? MS. PIETZ: YES. THE COURT: LAVALIER MIKE IS TURNED OFF? MS. PIETZ: THAT'S CORRECT. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:) MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. THE QUESTION IS, SO THAT I'M CLEAR ON THE COURT'S RULING WITH REGARD TO THE TAPE THAT WAS TURNED OVER, AM I ALLOWED TO GO INTO THIS ON DIRECT? MR. DARDEN: THE TAPE AND THE STATEMENT THAT ARE TURNED OVER LATE, SO -- MR. COCHRAN: WELL, YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO LET US KNOW ABOUT SCOPE. YOU NEVER MADE A RULING REGARDING THAT. THE COURT: WELL, NO, YOU CAN'T GO INTO THE TAPE OR THE STATEMENT AT THIS POINT, BUT I SUSPECT WE WILL SEE IT ON REDIRECT. MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. MS. CLARK: SO IS -- (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MR. COCHRAN: I WANT TO ASK SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW THE TAPE WAS DONE. IS THAT ALL RIGHT OR SHALL I JUST WAIT? THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU WAIT. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY CONTINUE. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR. Q: NOW, MISS LOPEZ, HAVE YOU BEEN PROMISED ANYTHING AT ALL OF A MONETARY NATURE FOR YOUR TESTIMONY HERE? A: NO, SIR. Q: HAVE YOU EVER -- HAVE YOU RECEIVED ANYTHING FROM ANY PERSON FOR YOUR TESTIMONY HERE AND ON LAST TUESDAY? A: NO, SIR. Q: HAVE YOU RECEIVED, HOWEVER, SOME FUNDS IN THE MAIL AND THROUGH WESTERN UNION FROM OTHER PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES SINCE YOU TESTIFIED LAST FRIDAY? MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: YES, SIR. Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: HAVE YOU ALSO RECEIVED SOME FUNDS AND SOME HELP FROM YOUR LAWYER, MR. JONES, AND MISS HAMBURGER? THE INTERPRETER: I'M SORRY, MR. COCHRAN, COULD YOU REPEAT THAT QUESTION, PLEASE? Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: FROM MR. CARL JONES AND FROM MISS MAYA HAMBURGER? A: SHE HAS PURCHASED MY CLOTHES. Q: HAVE YOU RECEIVED ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN THAT? A: FLOWERS. Q: AND WHO DID YOU GET THE FLOWERS FROM? A: MANY PEOPLE. I DON'T REMEMBER RIGHT NOW. Q: THEY WERE NOT FROM YOUR LAWYERS; IS THAT RIGHT? A: NO, NO. MR. COCHRAN: VERY WELL. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER AT THIS POINT, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MR. COCHRAN. THE WITNESS: THANK YOU, SIR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN. MR. DARDEN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN: Q: GOOD MORNING, MISS LOPEZ. A: GOOD MORNING, SIR. Q: DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT TODAY, JUST AS YOU WERE LAST FRIDAY, YOU ARE UNDER OATH? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THAT. SHE KNOWS THAT. ARGUMENTATIVE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. PROCEED. THE WITNESS: YES. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT OATH, RIGHT? MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED. JUST ASKED AND ANSWERED. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: YES. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU UNDERSTOOD IT LAST FRIDAY WHEN YOU TESTIFIED? A: YES. Q: AND YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT OATH ON MONDAY WHEN YOU TESTIFIED? A: YES. Q: OKAY. AND YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TRUTH AND A LIE, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU TOLD US LAST FRIDAY THAT YOU HADN'T FILLED OUT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT FORMS, THAT WASN'T TRUE, WAS IT? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. SHE SAID SHE HADN'T FILLED THEM OUT AT THAT TIME. I THOUGHT IT HAD TO DO WITH VILLAPANDO. MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, MR. COCHRAN IS COACHING THIS WITNESS FROM COUNSEL TABLE. MR. COCHRAN: I AM NOT. MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: OVERRULED. THANK YOU. PROCEED. THE INTERPRETER: MAY THE QUESTION BE REPEATED, PLEASE? THE COURT: YOU TOLD US LAST FRIDAY YOU HADN'T FILLED OUT THE UNEMPLOYMENT FORMS. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: THAT WAS A LIE, CORRECT? A: NO. Q: YOU HAD FILLED OUT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT FORMS, HADN'T YOU? A: I WAS REFERRING TO THE APPLICATION THAT IS -- THAT ONE IS GIVEN FOR ONE TO TAKE IT BACK. Q: OKAY. YOU NEVER APPLIED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT? A: YES. Q: OKAY. YOU TOLD US LAST WEEK THAT YOU WEREN'T TURNING IN YOUR FORMS FOR UNEMPLOYMENT BECAUSE YOU WERE LEAVING THE COUNTRY, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: BUT IN FACT YOU HAD TURNED IN YOUR FORMS, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I ASK FOR A TIME ON THAT AS TO WHEN, AT WHAT POINT IT BECOMES RELEVANT. THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: CORRECT? A: NO, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND YOU. Q: WELL -- MR. COCHRAN: MAY I SEE THIS, YOUR HONOR? Q: BY MR. DARDEN: HAVE YOU FILED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND YOU FILED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT ON WHAT, FEBRUARY 15TH, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: YOU FILED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT KNOWING THAT YOU WERE GOING TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY FOR SEVERAL MONTHS, CORRECT? A: IF I WAS GIVEN UNEMPLOYMENT, SIR, THERE WAS NO REASON FOR ME TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY. Q: ARE YOU AWARE THAT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE HEARING WAS SCHEDULED FOR YESTERDAY, MISS LOPEZ? A: I DON'T REMEMBER BECAUSE I DON'T CARRY THE FORMS WITH ME. Q: DID YOU ATTEND THE HEARING YESTERDAY? A: NO, SIR. Q: SO IF I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY THEN, IF YOU GET UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE YOU WON'T LEAVE THE COUNTRY; IS THAT RIGHT? MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS NOT WHAT SHE SAID, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I HAVE THOUGHT OF LEAVING RIGHT AWAY WHEN I AM OUT OF HERE, YOU KNOW. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THOSE ITEMS FOR COUNSEL? MR. DARDEN: NO, YOUR HONOR. I ONLY HAVE THE ORIGINAL. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. CAN I HAVE MR. TYLER BACK THERE PERHAPS. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: AND MR. DARDEN, IF YOU WOULD, FOR THE CLARITY OF THE AUDIO RECORDING, EITHER STAY AT THE MIKE OR USE ONE OF THE WIRELESS MICROPHONES, PLEASE. THE AUDIO IS A LITTLE ON THE LIGHT SIDE WHEN YOU MOVE AWAY FROM THE PODIUM, JUST FOR THE CLARITY OF THE RECORD. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MR. DARDEN: MAY I WAIT? (BRIEF PAUSE.) MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, IS MR. COCHRAN WEARING MY MICROPHONE? THE COURT: I BELIEVE HE IS. MR. COCHRAN: I DON'T KNOW IF HE HAS HIS NAME ON IT, YOUR HONOR, BUT I WILL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO TAKE THE MICROPHONE OFF THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME BACK THERE. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I THINK THIS IS A LOAN FROM CHANNEL 4. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: MR. SHULMAN. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: MR. DARDEN. (BRIEF PAUSE.) THE COURT: IT IS NOT OFTEN THE CAMERA PEOPLE GET ON CAMERA. (BRIEF PAUSE.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHILE WE WAIT, MISS LOPEZ, WHEN YOU TOLD US LAST WEEK THAT YOU HADN'T FILLED OUT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT FORMS -- MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. IT IS NOT CLEAR AND IT IS NOT A FAIR QUESTION BECAUSE THE QUESTION WAS ASKED -- LET ME JUST SAY THIS -- WAS ASKED IN CONNECTION WITH MISS VILLAPANDO WHEN SHE WAS THERE WITH MISS VILLAPANDO, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU CAN CLARIFY THAT ON REDIRECT OR MR. DARDEN CAN ASK SOME ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS AS TO WHEN AND WHERE. MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD OBJECT TO MR. COCHRAN MAKING OBJECTIONS AS IF TO SUGGEST TO THE WITNESS WHAT THE RESPONSE OUGHT TO BE IN THE SITUATION. WE ALL WENT TO LAW SCHOOL. WE ALL KNOW HOW TO MAKE LEGAL OBJECTIONS. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. MR. DARDEN: AND I WOULD ASK THE COURT TO REQUIRE MR. COCHRAN TO MAKE LEGAL OBJECTIONS AS OPPOSED TO SPEECHES. THE COURT: THANK YOU. I THINK IT IS WELL TAKEN ON BOTH SIDES. THANK YOU. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU TOLD US THAT YOU HAD NOT FILLED OUT THE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FORMS, YOU WANTED US TO THINK THAT YOU HADN'T APPLIED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: IT IS IRRELEVANT WHAT HE WANTS. I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION AS ARGUMENTATIVE. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU WANT US TO THINK THAT YOU HAD NOT APPLIED FOR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT. IT IS VAGUE AND ARGUMENTATIVE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU TESTIFIED LAST WEEK -- MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. THE COURT: IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. THE COURT: YES, IT IS. MR. DARDEN: THIS IS CROSS-EXAMINATION, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, THE QUESTION, IN ITS FORM. MR. COCHRAN: ALSO ARGUMENTATIVE. MR. DARDEN: STATE OF MIND IS IRRELEVANT? THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION. THE WAY IT IS PHRASED IS ARGUMENTATIVE, "YOU WANTED US TO THINK THAT." WAS YOUR STATE OF MIND X, THAT YOU WANTED US TO BELIEVE. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. I OBJECT. MR. DARDEN: ASKING QUESTIONS -- MR. COCHRAN: HE SAID HE WENT TO LAW SCHOOL, YOUR HONOR. MR. DARDEN: ASKING QUESTIONS WITH AN INTERPRETER IS AN ART, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: IT IS. MR. DARDEN: YES, IT IS. THE COURT: PROCEED. MR. DARDEN: THANK YOU. Q: WHY DID YOU TELL US THAT YOU HADN'T FILLED OUT THOSE FORMS WHEN IN FACT YOU KNEW THAT YOU HAD FILLED OUT UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FORMS? A: I WAS REFERRING TO THE APPLICATION THAT ONE IS GIVEN TO TAKE HOME. Q: DID YOU FILL OUT AN APPLICATION AT THE UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE OFFICE? A: YES. Q: DID YOU INDICATE ON THAT APPLICATION THAT YOU HAD SUDDENLY BECOME UNEMPLOYED? A: I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT I SAID, YES. Q: DID YOU CHECK A BOX ON THAT APPLICATION INDICATING THAT YOU WANTED UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE PAYMENTS? A: YES. Q: AND DID YOU INDICATE ON THE APPLICATION THAT YOU HAD BEEN TERMINATED FROM THE SALINGER'S HOME? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: WELL, YOU FILLED OUT THOSE FORMS AND FILED THEM ON FEBRUARY 15TH, CORRECT? A: I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT DAY IT WAS. (BRIEF PAUSE.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: HOW MUCH WERE YOU EXPECTING TO RECEIVE IN UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE? A: I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH -- I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THEY WILL GIVE ME WHENEVER I GO THERE. Q: LAST WEEK YOU TOLD US THAT AFTER YOU LEFT THE SALINGER'S YOU MOVED IN WITH YOUR DAUGHTER? A: YES. Q: AND YOU WERE LIVING THERE ON FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 17TH, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: WHEN YOU FILLED OUT YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE APPLICATION YOU DID NOT LIST YOUR DAUGHTER'S ADDRESS ON THE APPLICATION, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: YOU DID NOT LIST THE SALINGER'S RESIDENCE AS YOUR OWN RESIDENCE, CORRECT? THE INTERPRETER: NOT -- Q: BY MR. DARDEN: ON YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FORM YOU DID NOT INDICATE THAT YOU LIVED AT THE SALINGER HOME? A: I DON'T LIVE WITH THE SALINGERS. Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU WERE LIVING WITH YOUR DAUGHTER ON FEBRUARY 15TH, RIGHT? A: YES. Q: WHOSE ADDRESS IS THIS ON YOUR UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE APPLICATION? MR. COCHRAN: ASK COUNSEL TO SHOW HER THE ADDRESS, YOUR HONOR. ASK COUNSEL TO SHOW HER THE ADDRESS; NOT TO SAY IT OUT LOUD. THE COURT: YES, PLEASE. MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, WHAT IS PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER? THE COURT: MRS. ROBERTSON, PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER? THE CLERK: 87. THE COURT: 87. DO YOU WANT THIS WHOLE PACKET? MR. DARDEN: YES, THE ENTIRE APPLICATION, YOUR HONOR, MAY IT BE MARKED COLLECTIVELY AS PEOPLE'S 87? THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 87. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MR. DARDEN: I'M GOING TO PLACE A SMALL "87" IN THE UPPER RIGHT-HAND CORNER OF THE FIRST PAGE OF THE DOCUMENT. (PEO'S 87 FOR ID = UNEMPLOYMENT INS. APPLICATION) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, SHOWING WHAT YOU HAS BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 87, DO YOU SEE LINE 2, BOX 6 WHERE IT ASKS FOR YOUR ADDRESS? A: YES. Q: OKAY. READ THAT ADDRESS. MR. COCHRAN: WELL, NO, YOUR HONOR. I ASK THAT SHE NOT HAVE TO READ THAT ADDRESS, YOUR HONOR. SHE CAN READ THE ADDRESS TO HERSELF YOU MEAN? THE COURT: IT IS NOT NECESSARY AT THIS POINT. MR. COCHRAN: NOT -- Q: BY MR. DARDEN: READ THE ADDRESS TO YOURSELF. A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) Q: THAT IS NOT YOUR DAUGHTER'S ADDRESS, IS IT? A: NO, NO. Q: THAT IS NOT THE SALINGER'S ADDRESS, IS IT? A: NO. Q: SO YOU WERE LIVING SOMEWHERE ELSE THEN? A: NO, SIR. Q: WHOSE ADDRESS IS THAT? A: IT IS MY SON'S ADDRESS, SIR. Q: YOU WEREN'T LIVING WITH YOUR SON, WERE YOU? A: NO. Q: SO WHEN YOU FILLED OUT THE FORM YOU PUT FALSE INFORMATION ON THE FORM? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT. THAT IS HER SON'S ADDRESS. SHE MAY GET HER MAIL THERE. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: FALSE INFORMATION? THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: IT IS NOT FALSE, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: THAT IS NOT YOUR ADDRESS, IS IT? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. THE FORM ASKED YOU TO WRITE, QUOTE, YOUR ADDRESS, UNQUOTE, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: BUT YOU WROTE YOUR SON'S ADDRESS INSTEAD, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: SO WERE YOU GOING TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY AND STILL GET UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE WHILE YOU WERE OUT OF THE COUNTRY? A: NO, SIR. Q: ARE YOU AWARE THAT ON THAT FORM AND IN BOLD PRINT -- AND IN BOLD PRINT, THAT IT INDICATES THAT IT IS A VIOLATION OF THE LAW TO MAKE FALSE STATEMENTS ON THAT FORM? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I DIDN'T READ IT, SIR, WHATEVER IS THERE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU DIDN'T READ IT? A: NO. Q: WELL, IT HAS A BOX THAT SAYS "PRINT YOUR FIRST NAME," CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND YOU PRINTED YOUR FIRST NAME IN THAT SAME BOX, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND IT HAS A LINE THAT INDICATES WHERE THE CLAIMANT SHOULD SIGN, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: AND YOU SIGNED ON THAT LINE, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: AND YOU ARE THE PERSON CLAIMING UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: SO YOU DID READ THE FORM? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. THAT DOESN'T FOLLOW, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: OH, A LITTLE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, THE BOX HAS -- STRIKE THAT. THE DOCUMENT HAS SEVERAL QUESTIONS LISTED ON THE FACE OF IT, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: AND TO THE RIGHT OF EACH OF THOSE QUESTIONS THERE ARE BOXES TO BE CHECKED "YES" AND "NO," CORRECT? A: YES. Q: AND YOU CHECKED THE APPROPRIATE BOXES, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: OKAY. SO YOU READ THE WHOLE FORM, RIGHT? A: WELL, WHAT I UNDERSTAND. Q: IS THAT YES? A: (IN ENGLISH) YES. Q: YOU DO RECALL THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH, RIGHT? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THAT. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. BUT I THINK WE HAVE EXHAUSTED THAT LINE OF QUESTIONS. THE WITNESS: YES. MR. DARDEN: NOW -- YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK THE WITNESSES ABOUT SOME OF THE INCONSISTENCIES IN HER TESTIMONY LAST WEEK. MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT, TELLING US WHAT HE WANTS TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT. THE COURT: GO AHEAD AND ASK THE QUESTION. WE WILL SEE IF THERE IS AN OBJECTION. MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS A CONCLUSION ON HIS PART. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: LAST WEEK WHEN YOU TESTIFIED -- MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE APPROACH ON THAT JUST FOR A MOMENT, PLEASE? THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: I HAD ASKED THE COURT EARLIER ABOUT THAT. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU TOLD US THAT YOU MADE RESERVATIONS TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY THAT MORNING WHEN IN FACT YOU HAD NOT, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: OKAY. THAT WAS A LIE, CORRECT? A: I DIDN'T REMEMBER THAT I HAD MADE RESERVATIONS PREVIOUSLY. Q: YOU TOLD US THAT YOU HAD MADE RESERVATIONS LAST FRIDAY MORNING, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: BUT YOU HAD NOT, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: AND YOU KNEW THAT, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: AND YOU LIED? A: NO. Q: WELL, WHAT DO YOU CALL IT? A: BECAUSE ONE DOESN'T NEED TO MAKE RESERVATIONS TO GO AROUND THIS TIME. I GO WITH MY MONEY, I BUY THE TICKET AND THEY GIVE IT TO ME FOR THE EVENING. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: NOT ONLY DID YOU NOT MAKE RESERVATIONS LAST FRIDAY MORNING, BUT YOU DIDN'T ADMIT THAT FACT UNTIL I CONFRONTED YOU WITH PROOF -- MR. COCHRAN: THIS QUESTION IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: -- THAT YOU HAD NOT MADE THE RESERVATION? MR. COCHRAN: ARGUMENTATIVE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: CORRECT? A: (IN ENGLISH) YES. THE INTERPRETER: YES. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: NOW, YOU DO UNDERSTAND WHY YOU ARE STILL HERE TODAY, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT, YOUR HONOR. I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: CORRECT? A: (IN ENGLISH) YES. Q: WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY MR. PAVELIC? A: OH, I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: WELL, DID YOU WRITE THE DATE ON A CALENDAR? A: NO, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN WRITING DATES. Q: WELL, DID SOMETHING ELSE HAPPEN THAT SAME DAY, SOMETHING THAT YOU REFLECT ON AND WHICH MIGHT HELP YOU RECALL THE DATE? A: NO. Q: HOW MANY TIMES WERE YOU INTERVIEWED BY MR. PAVELIC? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: WAS IT MORE THAN FIVE TIMES? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: WELL, GIVE US AN APPROXIMATE NUMBER? MR. COCHRAN: SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T REMEMBER, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: MAYBE TWO -- MAYBE TWO TIMES OR -- I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. MAYBE TWO, MAYBE MORE? A: NO, NO MORE. Q: SO IT IS TWO THEN? A: I BELIEVE. Q: OKAY. WELL, THE FIRST TIME YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY MR. PAVELIC, WHERE DID THAT INTERVIEW TAKE PLACE? A: (IN ENGLISH) AT MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE. THE INTERPRETER: AT MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AT MR. O.J. SIMPSON'S OFFICE? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND WAS THAT THE WEEK AFTER THE MURDERS OCCURRED? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: WELL, DID SOMEONE DRIVE YOU TO MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE? A: YES, SIR. Q: WHO DROVE YOU THERE? A: THE GENTLEMAN'S SECRETARY. Q: MR. SIMPSON'S SECRETARY? A: YES, SIR. Q: THAT WILL BE CATHY RANDA? A: YES, SIR. Q: DID SHE PICK YOU UP SOMEWHERE FIRST? A: YES, SIR. Q: WHERE WERE YOU WHEN SHE PICKED YOU UP? A: AT CLIFFORD, ON CLIFFORD STREET. Q: OKAY. AND WHAT IS ON CLIFFORD STREET? A: THE STREET IS THERE. Q: OKAY. SO YOU MET HER ON THE STREET; IS THAT CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: YOU WAITED AT THE CORNER? A: NOT AT THE CORNER, SIR; IN MY CAR. Q: SO YOU SAT IN YOUR CAR AND WAITED FOR HER TO ARRIVE TO PICK YOU UP? A: SHE WAS ALREADY WAITING FOR ME, SIR. Q: OKAY. WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO MEET HER ON THE STREET? A: I DON'T KNOW. Q: WELL, DID YOU ASK HER TO MEET YOU ON THE STREET? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: WELL, DID SHE ASK YOU TO MEET HER ON THE STREET? A: IT IS JUST THAT I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: WELL, THE TWO OF YOU MET ON THE STREET SO THAT NO ONE WOULD KNOW YOU WERE MEETING, CORRECT? A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR. Q: WELL, WERE YOU TRYING TO KEEP THE FACT OF THIS MEETING A SECRET? A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR. Q: WELL, YOU AGREED TO MEET HER ON THE STREET, DIDN'T YOU? A: YES. Q: WHY? A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q: WHY THERE? A: BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT I WAS TOLD AND THAT IS WHAT I DID. Q: WELL, WHO TOLD YOU TO MEET HER THERE? A: CATHY. Q: DID MICHELLE TELL YOU TO MEET HER THERE? A: NO. Q: WELL, YOU COULD HAVE MET HER AT THE SALINGER'S, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. I'M SURE SHE COULD HAVE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: YES. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: THEY COULD HAVE PICKED YOU UP IN FRONT OF THE SALINGER'S, CORRECT? A: YES. MR. DARDEN: MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT? (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) THE INTERPRETER: MAY WE, YOUR HONOR? (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE INTERPRETERS.) THE COURT: MR. DARDEN. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WERE YOU ASKED TO PARK YOUR CAR IN FRONT OF A SPECIFIC ADDRESS OR RESIDENCE? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. WHAT DID CATHY RANDA -- STRIKE THAT. HAD YOU SPOKEN TO CATHY RANDA IN PERSON PRIOR TO THAT DAY? A: BY PHONE, SIR. Q: OKAY. SO THE TWO OF YOU HAD NEVER MET, CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. SO YOU CALLED HER FIRST OR DID SHE CALL YOU FIRST? A: SHE CALLED ME. Q: DO YOU RECALL WHERE SPECIFICALLY IT WAS THAT YOU PARKED YOUR CAR THAT DAY? A: NO. Q: AND WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU MET CATHY RANDA THAT DAY? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: WAS IT IN THE MORNING? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: WAS IT IN THE AFTERNOON? MR. COCHRAN: SHE SAID SHE DOESN'T REMEMBER, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU RECALL IF IT WAS AFTER DARK? A: NO, SIR. MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, WOULD YOU KINDLY INSTRUCT MR. COCHRAN TO NOT FEED THIS WITNESS THE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS RIDICULOUS. I AM SITTING OVER HERE MINDING MY OWN BUSINESS. THAT IS RIDICULOUS, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: I DIDN'T NOTICE ANYTHING. MR. COCHRAN: I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT AND HE DOESN'T EITHER. MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR -- THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN: AS AMUSING AS I FIND MR. COCHRAN, HE IS MAKING SPEAKING OBJECTIONS AND THE WITNESS IS ADOPTING HIS OBJECTIONS AS HER ANSWERS. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR -- MR. DARDEN: I THINK THAT IS CLEAR AND APPARENT TO EVERYBODY WATCHING. MR. COCHRAN: I AM NOT MAKING SPEAKING OBJECTIONS, YOUR HONOR. MR. DARDEN: WHY THEN CONTINUE MAKING SPEAKING OBJECTIONS, COUNSEL? THE COURT: AT THIS POINT THAT OBJECTION IS OVERRULED. I DID NOT OBSERVE ANYTHING OR HEAR ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE. THANK YOU. MR. DARDEN: I BELIEVE YOU DID INSTRUCT MR. COCHRAN TO LIMIT HIS OBJECTIONS TO LEGAL OBJECTIONS, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: I DID, AS I DID THE PROSECUTION. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. PROCEED. MR. DARDEN: OKAY. Q: SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME OR WHAT DAY IT WAS THAT YOU FIRST MET CATHY RANDA? MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: NO, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: BY THE WAY, WAS THERE A REWARD OUT FOR ANY PERSON WHO COULD HELP MR. SIMPSON WIN THIS CASE AT THAT TIME? A: NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. Q: WAS SOMEONE ELSE IN THE CAR WITH CATHY RANDA? A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q: WHEN SHE PICKED YOU UP? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. SO YOU LEFT YOUR CAR THERE AND YOU GOT INTO HER CAR, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. SHE TOOK YOU TO MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. BY THE WAY, DID ANYONE GO WITH YOU TO MEET MISS RANDA? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. WHO DID YOU MEET WITH ONCE YOU ARRIVED IN MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE? A: WITH A GENTLEMAN WHOSE NAME IS BILL. Q: HIS NAME IS WHAT? A: BILL. Q: IS BILL AN ATTORNEY? A: I DON'T KNOW IF HE IS AN ATTORNEY. Q: OKAY. WELL, IS BILL MR. PAVELIC? A: YES, SIR. Q: WAS MR. JOHNNIE THERE AT THE TIME? A: NO, SIR. Q: WAS MR. SHAPIRO THERE? A: NO, SIR. Q: WAS PAT MC KENNA THERE? A: NO, SIR. Q: WAS MR. MC NALLY THERE? A: NO, SIR. Q: WAS MR. KARDASHIAN THERE? A: NO, SIR. Q: WAS MR. JONES THERE? A: NO, SIR. Q: SO DID YOU GO INTO AN OFFICE LOCATED INSIDE MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICES? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND WHO DID YOU SPEAK WITH AT THAT TIME? A: WITH MR. BILL. Q: DID YOU SPEAK WITH ANYONE ELSE? A: NOT THAT I CAN REMEMBER. Q: WELL, WHEN YOU AND MR. BILL FIRST BEGAN SPEAKING, DID HE HAVE A NOTE PAD WITH HIM? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: WELL, DID HE WRITE DOWN THE THINGS THAT YOU SAID? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: WELL, DID YOU SEE PAPER IN THE OFFICE? A: SIR, IT HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE THIS HAPPENED AND I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: WELL, WHAT MONTH WAS THIS? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: WAS IT IN AUGUST? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: WAS IT DURING THE SUMMER? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: WHAT YEAR WAS IT? A: I JUST KNOW THAT IT WAS IN '94. Q: OKAY. WAS IT ON JULY 29? A: MAYBE. Q: NOW, A MOMENT AGO YOU TOLD US YOU DON'T RECALL THE SEASON, THE DATE, THE MONTH OR THE TIME OF DAY -- MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS COMPLEX AND ARGUMENTATIVE ALSO, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: -- CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: BUT YOU THINK THAT PERHAPS IT WAS JUNE 29 (SIC)? A: IF YOU SAY SO. Q: WELL, I'M NOT SAYING SO. I'M ASKING YOU TO SAY SO, MA'AM. A: IT IS JUST THAT I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE BECAUSE I DON'T GO WRITING A DATE. Q: DO YOU HAVE A HARD TIME REMEMBERING DATES? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THIS. THIS IS ARGUMENTATIVE. SHE SAID -- THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: NO, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU HAVE A HARD TIME REMEMBERING TIMES? A: IF I DON'T -- IF I DON'T HAVE IT WRITTEN DOWN, HOW CAN I REMEMBER? Q: OKAY. IS THAT THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN REMEMBER DATES AND TIMES, THAT IS, IF IT IS WRITTEN DOWN? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: NO, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU JUST TOLD US A MOMENT AGO? MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: THE RECORD SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: YES, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC, DID HE EVER TAPE THAT CONVERSATION? A: YES, SIR. Q: DID HE TAPE BOTH THE CONVERSATIONS THAT YOU HAD WITH HIM? A: I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE SECOND ONE. Q: WELL, DURING THE SECOND INTERVIEW WAS THERE A TAPE RECORDER PRESENT? A: HE DIDN'T TELL ME. Q: WELL, DID HE TELL YOU THAT HE WAS TAPING THE FIRST ONE? A: I SAW THAT HE PUT SOMETHING ON THE TABLE, BUT IT DIDN'T MATTER TO ME. Q: WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC THE FIRST TIME, YOU TALKED ABOUT TIMES AND VOICES; IS THAT RIGHT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND YOU WERE TRYING TO TELL HIM WHAT YOU BELIEVE WERE THE CORRECT TIMES, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND MR. PAVELIC KEPT TRYING TO PUSH SOME OF YOUR TIMES LATER, DIDN'T HE? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. ALSO MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. DARDEN: LET ME REASK THE QUESTION, IF I MAY. TWO QUESTIONS. Q: YOU GAVE MR. PAVELIC SOME TIMES, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND YOU TRIED TO TELL HIM THE TIMES YOU BELIEVED WERE CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. IT IS MR. PAVELIC WHO DECIDED THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO AT 10:15 OR 10:20, AS OPPOSED TO A FEW MINUTES BEFORE OR AROUND TEN O'CLOCK, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. CALLS FOR A CONCLUSION AND IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED. MR. DARDEN: IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE? THE COURT: NO, IT IS ALSO -- IT ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE AT THIS POINT AND IT ALSO CALLS FOR SPECULATION, THAT IT IS -- THAT IT WAS PAVELIC WHO DECIDED. WE HAVE REVIEWED THE TAPE. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, DID MR. PAVELIC TELL YOU OR MENTION TO YOU FIRST THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO AT 10:15 OR 10:20? A: ALL I SAID WAS THAT IT WAS AFTER 10:00. Q: SO YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG AFTER 10:00, CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. Q: YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG AFTER 10:00? A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q: YES OR NO? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. MR. PAVELIC IS THE ONE THAT FIRST SUGGESTED 10:15 OR 10:20, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS SPECULATIVE, SPECULATION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: IF THAT IS WHAT HE IS SAYING, THAT IS FINE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: BUT WHAT YOU TOLD MR. PAVELIC WAS THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO SOME TIME AFTER TEN O'CLOCK AND YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG AFTER 10:00, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU SAID THAT AT SOME POINT MR. PAVELIC PUT SOMETHING INTO THE TAPE RECORDER? A: I HAVEN'T SAID THAT HE PUT ANYTHING. Q: OKAY. WELL, DID YOU SAY THAT AT SOME POINT MR. PAVELIC TURNED ON THE TAPE RECORDER? A: YES, SIR. Q: WELL, BEFORE HE TURNED ON THE TAPE RECORDER, YOU AND HE HAD A LONG CONVERSATION FIRST, CORRECT? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: HAVE YOU LISTENED TO THE TAPE, THAT IS, WITHIN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS? A: HERE IN COURT. Q: MR. JOHNNIE PLAYED A CASSETTE TAPE FOR YOU? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND HE PLAYED A TAPE THAT INCLUDED YOUR VOICE AND MR. BILL'S VOICE, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND WHEN YOU HEARD THAT TAPE DID YOU ALSO HEAR PAPER SHUFFLING, THE SOUND OF PAPER SHUFFLING IN THE BACKGROUND? MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION. THE WITNESS: NO, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DURING THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH MR. PAVELIC YOU WOULD GIVE TIMES AND HE WOULD GIVE OTHER TIMES, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THIS. THE TAPE IS THE BEST EVIDENCE OF THIS. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: THIS IS -- THE WITNESS: IF YOU SAY SO, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: BUT I'M ASKING YOU, MA'AM. IS THAT CORRECT? A: IT IS CORRECT. Q: AND YOU DID NOT AGREE WITH ALL THE TIMES THAT MR. PAVELIC SAID, CORRECT? A: MAYBE HE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND ME. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) THE WITNESS: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE SOME WATER. THE COURT: YES. WE HAVE ONE FOR THE INTERPRETER AS WELL. (BRIEF PAUSE.) MR. DARDEN: CAN I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK IN ABOUT SIX MINUTES. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: ARE YOU READY? A: YES, SIR. Q: DURING THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH MR. PAVELIC, HE NEVER TOLD YOU THAT HE DID NOT UNDERSTAND YOU, CORRECT? A: HE DIDN'T, BUT I DID. Q: YOU TOLD MR. PAVELIC THAT HE WAS NOT UNDERSTANDING YOU CORRECTLY? A: WHEN WE WERE ABOUT TO START THE CONVERSATION I TOLD HIM, "LET'S SEE IF WE UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER, SIR, BECAUSE MY ENGLISH IS VERY POOR." Q: OKAY. AND DID YOU AND HE HAVE A CONVERSATION? A: WHEN IT WAS BEING RECORDED. Q: WELL, YOU HAVE NO DIFFICULTY IN SAYING "8:30," CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. Q: OR "TEN O'CLOCK," CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. OR "NINE O'CLOCK" OR "9:15," CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. WOULD YOU -- WOULD YOU SAY "TEN O'CLOCK" FOR US. A: (IN ENGLISH) AFTER 10:00, SENOR. THE INTERPRETER: AFTER 10:00, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU ALSO TOLD US THE OTHER DAY THAT BEFORE GOING OUT, YOU PUT SOME WATER ON TO BOIL? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND WERE YOU PLANNING TO HAVE A CUP OF TEA? A: YES, SIR. Q: ARE YOU A COFFEE DRINKER AT ALL? A: YES, SIR. Q: WHEN YOU PUT WATER ON TO BOIL, WHAT YOU DID WAS YOU PUT A CUP OF WATER INTO THE MICROWAVE, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND YOU SET THE MICROWAVE FOR A MINUTE AND A HALF? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND THAT IS HOW YOU ALWAYS DO IT, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND AFTER YOU STARTED THE MICROWAVE, YOU LEFT THE HOUSE? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE AS TO WHAT HAPPENED. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: NO, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. WELL, YOU DIDN'T HAVE YOUR COFFEE, DID YOU? MR. COCHRAN: THAT MISSTATES. SHE WASN'T DRINKING COFFEE, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. DARDEN: I'M SORRY. Q: YOU DIDN'T HAVE YOUR TEA, CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. DID YOU LEAVE THE HOUSE WHILE THE WATER WAS BOILING IN THE MICROWAVE? A: NO, SIR. Q: YOU NEVER HAD YOUR TEA? A: NO, SIR. Q: YOU TOLD US THAT WHEN YOU WENT OUT, AROUND TEN O'CLOCK -- MR. COCHRAN: THAT MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE. AFTER TEN O'CLOCK IS WHAT SHE SAID. THE COURT: REPHRASE THE QUESTION. EVER SO SLIGHTLY REPHRASE THE QUESTION, PLEASE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, WHEN YOU TESTIFIED THE OTHER DAY AND WHEN YOU WERE ASKED WHAT YOU DID AT TEN O'CLOCK, YOU STUTTERED AND YOU SAID -- MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. HE IS TESTIFYING AND IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION. MR. DARDEN: THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. THE COURT: THE STUTTERING PART IS, YES. MR. DARDEN: WHAT IF THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED? DOES THAT STILL MAKE IT ARGUMENTATIVE? MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR. HE IS ARGUING WITH THE COURT'S RULING. THE COURT: ARGUMENTATIVE IS THE OBJECTION. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, ALSO ARGUING WITH YOUR RULING. THE COURT: AND YOU ARE ALSO ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT ARGUING. MR. COCHRAN: I WAS JUST POINTING IT OUT. I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MR. DARDEN, PROCEED. REASK YOUR QUESTION, PLEASE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU WERE DISCUSSING WHAT YOU DID AT, AFTER OR AROUND TEN O'CLOCK, DIDN'T YOU SAY IN SPANISH THAT YOU LAST LOOKED AT THE CLOCK SHORTLY BEFORE TEN O'CLOCK? A: AT TEN O'CLOCK, SIR. Q: NOW, THE CLOCK THAT YOU LOOKED AT AT TEN O'CLOCK, IS THAT THE CLOCK THAT WAS IN YOUR BEDROOM? A: YES, SIR. Q: MRS. SALINGER WOULD SOMETIMES COME INTO YOUR BEDROOM, CORRECT? A: I DON'T KNOW IF SHE WOULD COME INTO MY BEDROOM WHEN I WASN'T THERE. Q: OKAY. WELL, WOULD SHE COME INTO YOUR BEDROOM SOMETIMES WHEN YOU WERE THERE? A: NOT THAT I CAN REMEMBER. Q: ARE YOU SURE THAT YOU HAD A CLOCK ON YOUR NIGHTSTAND IN YOUR BEDROOM? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND THIS CLOCK THAT YOU HAD, WAS IT A DIGITAL CLOCK OR DID IT HAVE HANDS? A: IT WAS DIGITAL, SIR. Q: IS THAT THE ONLY KIND OF CLOCK YOU CAN TELL TIME FROM? A: NO, SIR. Q: BUT WHEN YOU DID LEAVE AT TEN O'CLOCK, YOU LEFT FOR A VERY SHORT TIME, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT. HE MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE AGAIN, YOUR HONOR. ARGUMENTATIVE, MISSTATING THE EVIDENCE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE. SHE SAID -- MR. DARDEN: HEY, HEY, HEY. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU LEFT AT TEN O'CLOCK -- MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS VAGUE AS TO LEFT WHERE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: IT IS VAGUE. THE COURT: YOU CAN ASK THE QUESTION. LAST QUESTION BEFORE THE BREAK. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU WERE OUTSIDE A VERY SHORT TIME, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S TAKE OUR RECESS. ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MISS LOPEZ, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK FOR THE COURT REPORTER AND THE INTERPRETERS. YOU ARE ORDERED TO COME BACK AT ELEVEN O'CLOCK. ALL RIGHT. FIFTEEN MINUTES. ALL RIGHT. STAND IN RECESS FOR FIFTEEN MINUTES. (RECESS.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. ALL PARTIES ARE AGAIN PRESENT. MISS ROSA LOPEZ IS AGAIN ON THE WITNESS STAND. GOOD MORNING AGAIN, MISS LOPEZ. THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, SIR. THE COURT: AND I WILL REMIND YOU THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH. THE WITNESS: YES, SIR. THE COURT: MR. DARDEN, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION. MR. DARDEN: THANK YOU. Q: MISS LOPEZ, WHEN YOU LEFT THE SALINGER'S, YOU PACKED YOUR CLOTHES UP? A: I ALREADY HAD IT PARKED, SIR. Q: SO YOU JUST GRABBED YOUR BAGS AND LEFT, CORRECT? A: NOT EVERYTHING, SIR. I HAD MANY THINGS THAT HAD NOT BEEN PACKED YET, SO -- Q: WELL, DID YOU ONLY TAKE YOUR CLOTHES WITH YOU WHEN YOU LEFT? A: I TOOK EVERYTHING, SIR. Q: WHAT IS EVERYTHING? A: THINGS THAT I HAVE, SIR, JUNK I HAVE. Q: DID YOU TAKE ANY FURNITURE? A: I DON'T HAVE A HOUSE TO LIVE IN. I DON'T HAVE FURNITURE, SIR. Q: SO YOU ONLY TOOK YOUR CLOTHES AND YOUR PHOTOGRAPHS AND YOUR PERSONAL PAPERS? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. NOW, YOU AND I SPOKE HERE IN COURT LAST FRIDAY, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND WE ARE SPEAKING HERE IN COURT TODAY, RIGHT? A: I THINK SO. Q: OKAY. OKAY. YOU HAVE NEVER GIVEN MISS CLARK A FACE-TO-FACE INTERVIEW, CORRECT? A: SHE HAS NEVER ASKED ME FOR ONE, SIR. Q: OKAY. YOU HAVE NEVER GIVEN ME A FACE-TO-FACE INTERVIEW, CORRECT? A: THAT IS WHAT I HAVE MY ATTORNEY FOR, SIR. Q: A VERY GOOD ATTORNEY, MISS LOPEZ. MR. COCHRAN: WAS HE TESTIFYING, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: HE IS. MR. DARDEN: MR. COCHRAN IS A VERY GOOD ATTORNEY, YOUR HONOR. MR. COCHRAN: I AGREE, SO I WILL MOVE TO STRIKE THAT. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID -- DID -- DID MR. JOHNNIE TELL YOU NOT TO TALK TO ME? A: NO, SIR. Q: WELL, DID HE TELL MR. JONES TO TELL YOU NOT TO TALK TO ME? MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION, HEARSAY. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. DO YOU WANT TO REPHRASE THE QUESTION. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID SOMEONE TELL YOU NOT TO TALK TO ME? A: NO, SIR. Q: ARE YOU AWARE THAT I HAVE ASKED YOUR ATTORNEY MANY, MANY TIMES FOR PERMISSION TO SPEAK WITH YOU? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I THINK THE BEST PERSON TO ASK THAT WOULD BE THE ATTORNEY, MR. JONES. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I DO NOT UNDERSTAND YOU. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, ARE YOU AWARE THAT I ASKED MR. JONES TO ASK YOU IF IT WAS OKAY IF YOU AND I TALKED? A: I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT UNTIL NOW, SIR. Q: SO NOBODY EVER TOLD YOU THAT I WANTED TO TALK WITH YOU, CORRECT? A: NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE, SIR. Q: OKAY. BUT YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO MR. JOHNNIE ON MANY OCCASIONS, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND YOU SPOKE TO MR. DOUGLAS THERE ALSO? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND MR. MC KENNA? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. DID YOU SPEAK TO MR. BAILEY? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. YOU SPOKE TO ALL THE LAWYERS IN THE ROOM BUT MISS CLARK AND I; IS THAT CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. SHE SPOKE TO HIM LAST FRIDAY AND SHE IS SPEAKING TO HIM NOW. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: YES, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHERE DID YOU GO DURING THE BREAK WE JUST HAD A FEW MOMENTS AGO? A: BEHIND THE OFFICE, SIR. Q: YOU WENT TO A ROOM LOCATED DIRECTLY BEHIND THIS COURTROOM? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. IS THAT CALLED THE JURY ROOM? A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR. Q: OKAY. IS THERE A LARGE TABLE IN THERE? A: A ROUND TABLE, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND ARE THERE APPROXIMATELY TWELVE CHAIRS LOCATED IN THAT ROOM? MR. COCHRAN: NO. OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. HE HAS TO BE IN THE ROOM. OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. THE COURT: HE IS ASSUMING FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE. MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMING FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE. MR. DARDEN: THIS IS CROSS-EXAMINATION. I'M ASKING THE WITNESS A QUESTION. THE COURT: GO AHEAD. THERE IS NO DISPUTE THAT THAT IS THE ROOM BACK THERE. THERE IS NO DISPUTE IT IS THE JURY ROOM, MR. COCHRAN. IS THAT A STIPULATION? MR. COCHRAN: I'M NOT TESTIFYING, COUNSEL. THE COURT: PROCEED. MR. DARDEN: IS THAT A STIPULATION. THE COURT: I'M JUST SAYING IT IS A MINOR POINT. OBVIOUSLY SINCE WE NOW HAVE 22 JURORS, THERE ARE 22 CHAIRS BACK THERE, OTHER THAN THAT MINOR POINT. MR. DARDEN: OKAY. THANK YOU. Q: WHEN YOU WENT INTO THAT ROOM, DID YOU GO INTO THAT ROOM WITH MR. JOHNNIE HERE? A: I WENT IN THERE FIRST, SIR. Q: OKAY. DID MR. JOHNNIE GO IN AFTER YOU? A: YES, WITH MY ATTORNEY, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND WHO ELSE WENT INTO THE ROOM WITH YOU? A: IRMA, SIR. Q: IRMA? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. MISS HAMBURGER, DID SHE GO INTO THE ROOM? A: THAT IS WHY I AM REFERRING TO MY ATTORNEY, SIR. Q: OKAY. OKAY. WHO ELSE WENT INTO THE ROOM? A: THE GENTLEMAN, MR. BILLER, THE GENTLEMAN HERE, THE TWO ATTORNEYS THAT ARE HERE. Q: MR. DOUGLAS AND MR. BAILEY? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. DID ANYONE ELSE GO INTO THE ROOM? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. AFTER YOU WENT INTO THE ROOM, DID THEY CLOSE THE DOOR? A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q: DID THEY CLOSE THE DOOR AFTER YOU WENT INTO THE ROOM? A: OH, I DON'T KNOW IF THEY CLOSED IT, SIR. Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU HAD A TALK WITH ALL OF THESE LAWYERS BACK THERE IN THE JURY ROOM, CORRECT? A: WITH MR. COCKER, SIR. Q: OKAY. DID YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY? A: NO, SIR. Q: WHAT DID YOU TALK ABOUT? A: WE TALKED ABOUT MY ALWAYS TELLING THE TRUTH, SIR. THAT IS WHAT I'M SAYING NOW, SIR. (LAUGHTER.) THE COURT: MR. DARDEN. MR. DARDEN: I APOLOGIZE. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS -- YOUR HONOR, THAT IS TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE. YOUR HONOR, TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE. MR. DARDEN: THAT WAS NOT APPROPRIATE. I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT. MR. COCHRAN: MAY WHATEVER THAT WAS BE STRICKEN FROM THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: IT WILL BE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHO TOLD YOU TO ALWAYS TALK ABOUT TELLING THE TRUTH? A: I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD THAT BY ALL OF THEM, SIR. Q: AND DID THEY TELL YOU THAT LAST YEAR WHEN YOU SPOKE TO THEM? MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE, THAT HE SPOKE TO HER LAST YEAR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. IT IS IN THE RECORD. 1994 WHEN THE FIRST INTERVIEW TOOK PLACE. MR. COCHRAN: HE SAYS "WHEN THEY." TALKING NOW ABOUT US, YOUR HONOR. HE DIDN'T TALK TO HER. THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: IS THAT WHAT THEY TOLD YOU LAST YEAR? A: FROM THE FIRST TIME THAT I SAW THEM, SIR. Q: WAS THAT LAST YEAR, 1994? A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF I SAW A GENTLEMAN IN THE YEAR, '94. Q: OKAY. YOU SAW MR. JOHNNIE IN '94? A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF I SAW HIM, SIR. Q: YOU SAW MR. DOUGLAS IN '94? A: NO, SIR. Q: YOU SAW MR. SHAPIRO IN '94? A: NO, SIR. Q: DID YOU HEAR MR. JOHNNY'S OPENING STATEMENT ON JANUARY 23RD? A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q: IN THIS CASE? A: I WAS WORKING. I DIDN'T HEAR IT, SIR. Q: OKAY. WELL, HAD YOU SPOKEN TO MR. JOHNNIE PRIOR TO HEARING YOUR NAME ON TELEVISION? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. WHERE DID YOU FIRST SPEAK TO MR. JOHNNIE? A: AT MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE. Q: WAS MR. JOHNNIE THERE THAT DAY WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC? A: WHAT WAS THAT YOU SAID? Q: OKAY. WAS MR. JOHNNIE AT MR. SIMPSON'S OFFICE THE FIRST DAY THAT YOU SPOKE TO MR. BILL? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WELL, WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. JOHNNIE THE FIRST TIME, WAS THAT IN THE SAME OFFICE THAT YOU HAD SPOKEN TO MR. BILL PREVIOUSLY? A: YES, SIR. Q: WHO ELSE WAS PRESENT WITH YOURSELF AND MR. JOHNNIE? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: WELL, WAS THERE ANOTHER LAWYER PRESENT? A: UP UNTIL NOW THERE WERE OTHER PERSONS THERE, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW IF THEY WERE ATTORNEYS OR NOT. Q: DO YOU SEE ANY OF THOSE OTHER PERSONS HERE IN COURT NOW? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: YOU ONLY REMEMBER MR. JOHNNIE? A: YES, SIR. Q: WAS CATHY RANDA PRESENT? A: NO, SIR. Q: WAS MR. MC KENNA PRESENT? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: WAS IRMA PRESENT? THE INTERPRETER: WHO? Q: BY MR. DARDEN: IRMA? A: NO, SIR. Q: DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM REMEMBERING THINGS? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, DO YOU HAVE A FAULTY MEMORY? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT, YOUR HONOR. CALLS FOR SPECULATION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: NOT -- NO, SIR, NOT THAT I BELIEVE SO. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MR. COCHRAN TOLD YOU TO TELL THE TRUTH WHEN YOU TESTIFIED, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: LET'S TALK ABOUT SYLVIA. A: YES, SIR. Q: WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. PAVELIC THE FIRST TIME, WAS THE ENTIRE INTERVIEW TAPED? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, YOU LISTENED TO YOUR TAPED INTERVIEW WITH MR. PAVELIC JUST THE OTHER DAY, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: DID THAT TAPE CONTAIN EVERYTHING YOU AND HE TALKED ABOUT THAT DAY? A: NO, SIR. Q: THERE WERE OTHER THINGS THAT THE TWO OF YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT IS NOT ON THE TAPE, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT THOSE OTHER THINGS THE TAPE WAS ON, CORRECT? A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR. MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, YOU SAW MR. BILL MESS AROUND WITH THE TAPE RECORDER? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. THAT IS NOT EVEN A LEGAL -- THE COURT: SUSTAINED. MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. THE COURT: THANK YOU. SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION. "MESS AROUND" IS KIND OF A VAGUE TERM. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, WHAT DID YOU SEE MR. BILL DO WITH THE TAPE RECORDER? MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE, HE DID ANYTHING WITH IT. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THERE HAS ALREADY BEEN TESTIMONY TO THAT. THE WITNESS: THE FIRST TIME, SIR? ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE FIRST TIME? Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YES, YES, THE FIRST TIME? A: I SAW THAT HE PUSHED THE BUTTON AND THAT'S IT. Q: OKAY. OKAY. WELL, DID YOU HAVE A TALK WITH HIM PRIOR TO THE PUSHING OF THE BUTTON? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: IS IT THAT YOU DON'T REMEMBER OR IS IT THAT YOU JUST DON'T WANT TO TELL IS? MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T REMEMBER. THE COURT: YES, IT IS. MR. COCHRAN: IS THAT SUSTAINED? THE COURT: YES. I SAID YES, IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: TELL US THE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU TOLD MR. BILL THAT AREN'T ON THE TAPE. A: OH, ASK ME, SIR, BECAUSE I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: WELL, IF YOU DON'T REMEMBER, HOW IS IT THEN THAT YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE THINGS THAT YOU TOLD HIM THAT ARE NOT ON THE TAPE? A: ASK ME WHATEVER YOU WANT, SIR, BUT I CANNOT ANSWER THAT FOR YOU. Q: DOES IT APPEAR TO YOU THAT THERE ARE THINGS THAT WERE SAID ON THE TAPE THAT ARE NO LONGER ON THE TAPE? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS -- THE COURT: SUSTAINED. THERE IS AN ASSUMPTION THERE THAT SOMETHING HAS BEEN TAKEN OUT OF THE TAPE. THERE IS NO FOUNDATION FOR THAT -- MR. DARDEN: OKAY. THE COURT: -- BY THE WAY THE QUESTION IS PHRASED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN YOU TESTIFIED THE OTHER DAY, YOU MADE NO MENTION OF SYLVIA, CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. Q: YOU DID NOT MENTION HER NAME? A: NO, SIR. Q: AND ON THE TAPE OF YOUR INTERVIEW WITH MR. BILL THERE WAS NO MENTION OF SYLVIA, CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. Q: DID YOU TELL MR. BILL ABOUT SYLVIA? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND DID YOU TELL HIM ABOUT SYLVIA DURING THAT FIRST CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD WITH HIM? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: WELL, WHEN DID YOU TELL MR. BILL ABOUT SYLVIA? A: I DON'T REMEMBER THE DATE OR THE TIME, SIR, BECAUSE A LOT OF TIME HAS PASSED. Q: WELL, YOU ONLY HAD TWO CONVERSATIONS WITH MR. BILL, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: WAS IT THE FIRST TIME OR THE SECOND TIME? A: THE SECOND TIME, SIR. Q: AND THAT SECOND INTERVIEW YOU HAD WITH MR. BILL WAS IN AUGUST, CORRECT? A: IF YOU SAY SO, SIR, THAT IS WHAT IT WILL BE. Q: IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID TO MR. BILL, "IF YOU SAY SO, THAT IS THE WAY IT WILL BE"? A: IT IS JUST THAT HE ASKS ME DIFFERENTLY, SIR. Q: IN AUGUST YOU TOLD MR. BILL THAT YOU HAD A FRIEND NAMED SYLVIA, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND YOU TOLD MR. BILL THAT SYLVIA CAME BY YOUR HOUSE FOR COFFEE? A: SHE CAME TO HAVE A CUP OF COFFEE WITH ME, SIR. Q: THE NIGHT OF THE MURDERS SYLVIA CAME TO YOUR HOUSE FOR A CUP OF COFFEE? MR. COCHRAN: ASSUMES -- NEVER MIND. WITHDRAWN. THE WITNESS: YES, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND THAT WAS AFTER NINE O'CLOCK, CORRECT? A: AT ABOUT 8:30, SIR, OR 8:45, SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q: OKAY. WELL, DID YOU TELL MR. -- MR. PAVELIC THAT YOU -- THAT YOU SAW MR. SIMPSON'S CAR BETWEEN 8:30 AND NINE O'CLOCK? A: WHAT CAR ARE YOU REFERRING TO, SIR? Q: WELL, DID YOU TELL MR. PAVELIC THAT YOU SAW MR. SIMPSON DRIVE OFF BETWEEN 8:30 AND NINE O'CLOCK? MR. COCHRAN: CAN WE HAVE WHICH CONVERSATION HE IS TALKING ABOUT? THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE INTERPRETER: REPEAT YOUR QUESTION, PLEASE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: IN YOUR SECOND INTERVIEW DID YOU TELL MR. PAVELIC THAT YOU SAW MISS LOPEZ DROVE OFF? MR. COCHRAN: HE MISSPOKE, YOUR HONOR. HE SAID "LOPEZ." MR. DARDEN: YES, I DID MISSPEAK MYSELF. THE COURT: REPHRASE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: IN YOUR SECOND INTERVIEW DID YOU TELL MR. BILL THAT YOU SAW MR. SIMPSON DRIVE OFF BETWEEN 8:30 AND 9:00? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND YOU TOLD HIM THAT SOMETIME AFTER THAT SYLVIA CAME BY, CORRECT? A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF IT WAS BEFORE OR AFTER, SIR. Q: WELL, YOU REMEMBERED WHEN YOU TALKED TO MR. BILL, DIDN'T YOU? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. YOU TOLD MR. BILL 8:30 TO 9:00 WAS THE TIME THAT YOU SAW MR. SIMPSON DRIVE OFF, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND THE REASON YOU SAID 8:30 TO 9:00 IS BECAUSE YOU WEREN'T SURE OF THE EXACT TIME, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. YOU WERE GIVING HIM YOUR BEST ESTIMATE, CORRECT? A: THAT IS WHAT I TOLD HIM, SIR. Q: OKAY. THE LONGER TIME GOES BY THE HARDER IT IS FOR YOU TO REMEMBER THE EXACT TIME IN WHICH THINGS OCCURRED, CORRECT? A: IF THAT IS WHAT YOU SAY, SIR, THAT IS FINE. Q: THAT IS WHAT I'M ASKING YOU. A: IF YOU SAY SO, SIR, YES. Q: SO THE LONGER THAT -- STRIKE THAT. AND YOU TOLD MR. BILL THAT SYLVIA CAME BY ABOUT FIFTEEN MINUTES OR TEN TO FIFTEEN MINUTES AFTER MR. SIMPSON DROVE OFF? A: I TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS BEFORE THE GENTLEMAN LEFT, SIR. Q: WHAT GENTLEMAN? A: MR. SIMPSON, SIR. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DIDN'T YOU TELL MR. PAVELIC THAT SYLVIA CAME OVER AFTER MR. SIMPSON DROVE AWAY? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: YOU KNOW THAT I'VE TALKED TO SYLVIA, DON'T YOU? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. THE COURT: REPHRASE THE QUESTION. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: ARE YOU AWARE THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO SYLVIA? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, IS THAT LIKE SOME KIND OF -- I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. MR. DARDEN: I HAVE OBJECTED TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION 150 TIMES. THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED. HAVE A SEAT, MR. COCHRAN. THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW IF YOU TALKED, SIR, BUT SHE TOLD ME THAT SOMEONE HAD TALKED TO HER. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. AND YOU SAW HER HERE IN COURT THE OTHER DAY, CORRECT? THE INTERPRETER: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. MAY I HAVE THAT LAST QUESTION REPEATED, PLEASE? THE COURT: YES. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU SAW HER HERE IN COURT THE OTHER DAY, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND YOU SAY MR. JOHNNIE TOLD YOU TO TELL THE TRUTH, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: THE TRUTH IS, IS THAT SYLVIA DID NOT COME TO YOUR HOUSE FOR COFFEE, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THIS QUESTION AS ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: THE QUESTION IS ARGUMENTATIVE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: WE HAD A COFFEE AND WE ATE TAMALES, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND HOW LONG WAS SYLVIA AT THE HOUSE? A: FOR A VERY SHORT TIME. Q: HOW LONG? A: I DON'T KNOW. Q: HOW MANY TAMALES DID YOU EAT? A: WELL, SINCE I'M SO SKINNY I ATE ONE, SIR. Q: THE TRUTH IS THAT SYLVIA HAS NEVER BEEN TO THE SALINGER'S, CORRECT? A: SHE HAS COME OVER MANY TIMES, SIR. Q: SHE HAS NEVER BEEN INSIDE THE HOUSE, CORRECT? A: YES, SHE HAS, SIR. Q: SHE HAS NEVER BEEN INSIDE THE KITCHEN, CORRECT? A: I THINK SHE KNOWS IT BETTER THAN II DO. Q: SHE HAS NEVER -- (LAUGHTER) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SYLVIA HAS MET THE SALINGERS; IS THAT CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. Q: AND SYLVIA OWNS A CAR, DOES SHE? A: NO, SIR. Q: AND SHE LIVES HOW MANY BLOCKS AWAY FROM THE SALINGERS? A: I HAVEN'T COUNTED THEM, SIR. Q: BUT YOU HAVE BEEN TO THE HOUSE WHERE SHE WORKS, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND THE PEOPLE THAT OWN THAT HOUSE TOLD YOU NOT TO COME BACK TO THEIR HOME, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: WHAT IS THE RELEVANCE OF THAT? MR. DARDEN: I WILL WITHDRAW IT FOR NOW, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SYLVIA WAS AT THE SALINGER'S HAVING TAMALES AND COFFEE FOR TEN MINUTES; IS THAT CORRECT? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: OKAY. WELL, DID YOU DRIVE HER HOME? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND WHAT TIME DID YOU DRIVE HER HOME? A: I DON'T REMEMBER RIGHT NOW, SIR. Q: WELL, WHEN YOU DROVE HER HOME, DID YOU SEE THE BRONCO? A: I SAW A WHITE CAR PARKED UP THE STREET, SIR. Q: WELL, WHEN YOU DROVE SYLVIA HOME DID YOU SEE THE WHITE BRONCO YOU DESCRIBED EARLIER? A: YES, SIR. Q: WAS THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW THE BRONCO THAT NIGHT? A: I SAW THE BRONCO SOMETIME PAST 8:00, SIR. Q: SO WHEN YOU TOOK SYLVIA HOME, THAT WAS THE SECOND OR THIRD TIME THAT YOU HAVE SEEN THE BRONCO? A: THE SECOND TIME, SIR. Q: SO YOU HAD SEEN THE BRONCO EVEN EARLIER THAN THAT? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. VAGUE. VAGUE AS TO -- YES. REPHRASE THE QUESTION, "BEFORE THAT." Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHY IS THERE NO MENTION OF SYLVIA ON THE TAPED INTERVIEW, IF YOU KNOW? A: BECAUSE THE GENTLEMAN DID NOT ASK ME. MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A TWO-PAGE STATEMENT HERE. I WOULD LIKE TO MARK IT NEXT IN ORDER. IS THAT 88? MR. COCHRAN: MAY I SEE IT, COUNSEL? THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 88. MR. DARDEN: JULY 29TH STATEMENT FROM MR. PAVELIC, A COPY OF THE ONE MR. COCHRAN GAVE ME. (PEO'S 88 FOR ID = 2-PG STMT/7/29/94 FRM PAVELIC) (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, DO YOU READ ENGLISH? A: NO, SIR. I CAN BARELY READ SPANISH. MR. DARDEN: I'M GOING TO ASK THE INTERPRETER TO READ THE FOURTH LINE OF THAT DOCUMENT FROM THE TOP TO YOU. Q: THE DATE IS INDICATED AS JULY 29, 1994, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MAY I ASK AN INQUIRY? FOR WHAT PURPOSE IS THIS, YOUR HONOR? THIS IS PAVELIC'S STATEMENT TO SHAPIRO. FIND OUT WHAT PURPOSE IS THERE. THERE IS NO INDICATION OF ANY REFRESHING RECOLLECTION. THE COURT: IT COULD BE A PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENT. MR. COCHRAN: COULD WE HEAR THAT? COULD WE HAVE AN OFFER? THE COURT: LET ME SEE COUNSEL HERE AT THE SIDE BAR WITH THE REPORTER. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:) THE COURT: OVER AT THE SIDE BAR. OKAY. THE OBJECTION IS WHERE ARE WE GOING WITH THIS? MR. COCHRAN: YES. THE COURT: AND THE QUESTION IS PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENTS? MR. DARDEN: I ASSUME HE WROTE IT BECAUSE HE CLAIMED SHE SAID IT AND THAT SHE SAID IT AT THAT TIME, SO I'M GOING TO SHOW HER THE DOCUMENT. THE COURT: DID YOU SAY THIS? DID YOU SAY THIS? MR. DARDEN: YES. THE COURT: DID YOU SAY THIS? MS. CLARK: YES. MR. DARDEN: THE STATEMENT IS ATTRIBUTED TO HER. MR. COCHRAN: BUT THE STATEMENT IS WRITTEN BY SOMEBODY ELSE AND SHE NEVER SAW IT. I THINK THERE IS SOME FOUNDATIONAL -- IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE FAIR TO THE WITNESS, THERE IS A FOUNDATION, HAS SHE EVER SEEN THIS STATEMENT OR WHATEVER. THE COURT: I AGREE. THERE IS A COUPLE OF FOUNDATIONAL QUESTIONS YOU NEED TO ASK. MR. DARDEN: SO DID MR. PAVELIC CREATE THIS ON HIS OWN OR WHAT? MR. COCHRAN: HE WENT TO LAW SCHOOL, SO I WANT HIM TO USE THE REGULAR RULES THAT WE LEARNED IN LAW SCHOOL. THE COURT: WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THOSE KIND OF COMMENTS TODAY. WE WILL MOVE ON FROM THE LAW SCHOOL COMMENTS. JUST A COUPLE MORE FOUNDATIONAL QUESTIONS, BUT I THINK HE IS ENTITLED TO GO INTO IT SINCE IT IS ATTRIBUTED TO HER. MR. DARDEN: OKAY. WE ARE GOING TO GO ALL AFTERNOON, CORRECT? THE COURT: I HOPE WE ARE GOING TO GO UNTIL WE FINISH. MR. DARDEN: OKAY. THANK YOU. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. IS YOUR MICROPHONE ON? MR. DARDEN: YES, IT IS. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q: YOU SAY THAT SYLVIA CAME OVER TO THE SALINGER'S OFTEN, CORRECT? THE INTERPRETER: I'M SORRY, COUNSEL? Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SYLVIA CAME TO THE SALINGER'S HOME OFTEN? A: ONCE IN A WHILE. Q: WELL, HOW MANY TIMES HAS SHE BEEN INSIDE THE SALINGER'S HOME? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: OKAY. GIVE US AN APPROXIMATION. A: I CAN'T GIVE YOU AN APPROXIMATION BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW, SIR. Q: WELL, IS IT MORE THAN TWENTY TIMES? MR. COCHRAN: SHE HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: NO, SIR. NOT TWENTY TIMES, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. WAS IT LESS THAN TWENTY TIMES? A: YES, SIR. Q: WAS IT LESS THAN FIFTEEN TIMES? A: MAYBE, SIR. Q: LESS THAN FIVE TIMES? A: NOT FEWER THAN FIVE TIMES, SIR. Q: APPROXIMATELY FIVE TIMES? A: IF YOU SAY SO, SIR. Q: YOU TELL ME, MISS LOPEZ. A: I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: APPROXIMATELY FIVE TIMES? MR. COCHRAN: THE WITNESS SAID SHE DIDN'T REMEMBER. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: IS FIVE TIMES A FAIR APPROXIMATION? A: IT IS JUST THAT I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: EARLIER YOU SAID THAT SHE HAD BEEN OVER MANY TIMES. DO YOU RECALL THAT? A: YES, SIR. Q: YOU SAID THAT SHE KNEW THE KITCHEN BETTER THAN YOU DID PERHAPS? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. BUT SHE HAD ONLY BEEN TO THE HOUSE APPROXIMATELY FIVE TIMES, CORRECT. MR. COCHRAN: SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T REMEMBER. MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE. THAT IS NOT WHAT SHE SAID. THE COURT: SUSTAINED, SUSTAINED, SUSTAINED. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SHE HAD BEEN TO THE HOUSE NO MORE THAN FIVE TIMES? MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. IT IS IN THE CONTEXT OF THE SECOND QUESTION. OVERRULED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SHE HAD BEEN TO THE HOUSE NO MORE THAN FIVE TIMES, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: YES, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND DID SHE COME TO THE HOUSE AT A -- AT THE SAME TIME EACH TIME THAT SHE CAME? A: NO, SIR. Q: AND YOU HAVE KNOWN HER HOW LONG? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. OVER TWO YEARS, SIR. Q: SHE CAME TO THE HOUSE -- OVER TWO YEARS? SHE CAME TO THE HOUSE, WHAT, EVERY WEEK? A: NO, SIR, BUT WE WOULD TALK EVERYDAY, SIR. Q: YOU WOULD TALK EVERYDAY? A: YES, SIR. Q: ON THE TELEPHONE? A: YES, SIR. Q: TO GO BACK TO THE INTERVIEWS THAT YOU HAD WITH THE ATTORNEYS SEATED HERE, YOU ALSO HAD SEVERAL CONVERSATIONS WITH THE INVESTIGATORS, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: YOU HAD SEVERAL CONVERSATIONS WITH MR. BILL? A: NOT WITH BILL ANY MORE, SIR. Q: YOU HAD SEVERAL CONVERSATIONS WITH PATTY MC KENNA? A: YES, SIR. Q: AS A MATTER OF FACT, WHEN YOU LEFT COURT FRIDAY AFTERNOON, YOU LEFT WITH MR. MC KENNA, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND YOU AND HE WENT SOMEPLACE TOGETHER, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND YOU AND HE STAYED TOGETHER ALL WEEKEND, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE CASE OVER THE WEEKEND, CORRECT? A: HE JUST TELLS ME TO TELL THE TRUTH, SIR. MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, MOTION TO STRIKE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. DARDEN: NONRESPONSIVE, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. DARDEN: OKAY. Q: MR. MC KENNA DIDN'T DISCUSS THE FACTS OF THE CASE WITH YOU LAST WEEKEND? A: NO, SIR. Q: DID ANYONE DISCUSS THE FACTS OF THE CASE WITH YOU LAST WEEKEND? A: NO, SIR, NOR DO I WANT TO KNOW IT. Q: DID ANYONE DISCUSS WITH YOU YOUR TESTIMONY LAST WEEKEND? A: NO, SIR. Q: DID YOU MEET WITH THE LAWYERS AT ALL LAST WEEKEND? A: NO, SIR. Q: AND SO WHEN YOU WENT TO MR. COCHRAN'S OFFICE AT TWO O'CLOCK SATURDAY AFTERNOON AND WHEN YOU CAME BACK TO YOUR HOTEL AROUND NINE O'CLOCK -- A: YES, SIR. Q: -- YOU SPOKE TO MR. JOHNNIE OVER THE WEEKEND, DIDN'T YOU? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND YOU TALKED ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY, CORRECT? A: HE JUST TELLS ME TO TELL THE TRUTH, SIR. Q: DID YOU DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH MR. JOHNNIE OVER THE WEEKEND? A: NO, SIR. Q: SO YOU DIDN'T TALK ABOUT ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO SAY ON THE WITNESS STAND? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. YOU SPENT SEVEN HOURS WITH MR. JOHNNIE SATURDAY? A: I DON'T SPEND THEM JUST WITH HIM, SIR. Q: OKAY. YOU SPENT TIME WITH OTHER LAWYERS? A: WATCHING TELEVISION, SIR. Q: AND YOU SPENT TIME WITH THE INVESTIGATORS? A: THEY WERE VERY BUSY, I DON'T KNOW, IN THEIR OFFICES, SIR. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND DID YOU WATCH YOUR TESTIMONY, THE TESTIMONY YOU GAVE FRIDAY, ON TELEVISION WHILE YOU WERE AT MR. JOHNNIE'S OFFICE? A: NO, SIR. I DON'T LIKE TO WATCH TELEVISION. Q: OKAY. SO YOU DIDN'T DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH MR. JOHNNIE AT ALL ON SATURDAY; IS THAT CORRECT? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: WELL, A MOMENT AGO YOU SAID YOU DID. NOW, YOU SAY YOU DON'T REMEMBER? MR. COCHRAN: SHE IS CONFUSED. THE COURT: OVERRULED. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR -- THE TERM IS "TESTIMONY," YOUR HONOR, I THINK. THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU TALK WITH MR. JOHNNIE ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY HERE IN COURT? MR. COCHRAN: USE ANOTHER WORD. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: NO, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU DIDN'T TALK TO HIM ABOUT THAT LAST SATURDAY? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. SO YOU WERE IN HIS OFFICE FOR SEVEN HOURS, THOUGH, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND THE FOLLOWING SUNDAY DID YOU DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANY LAWYER? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. DID YOU SEE ANY OF THESE LAWYERS HERE IN COURT TODAY LAST SUNDAY? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: WELL TODAY IS THURSDAY, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND SUNDAY WAS WHAT, FIVE DAYS AGO? A: I THINK SO, SIR. Q: OKAY. YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHETHER OR NOT YOU SAW ANY OF THESE LAWYERS LAST SUNDAY? A: IT IS JUST THAT I WENT SHOPPING, SIR. Q: YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF YOU SAW ANY OF THESE LAWYERS HERE IN THE COURT LAST SUNDAY? A: I DON'T REMEMBER IF THEY TOOK ME OR IF THEY DIDN'T TAKE ME, SIR. Q: YOU DON'T REMEMBER IF THE LAWYERS TOOK YOU SHOPPING OR NOT? A: MY ATTORNEY AND THE WIFE OF MY ATTORNEY TOOK ME SHOPPING, SIR. Q: DO YOU REMEMBER IF YOU SAW THESE ATTORNEYS LAST SUNDAY? THE COURT: INDICATING THE ATTORNEYS HERE IN THE COURTROOM. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YES OR NO? A: NO, SIR. Q: WELL, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT AT LEAST ONE OF THESE ATTORNEYS VISITED YOU AT YOUR HOTEL? A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q: LAST SUNDAY? A: NO, SIR. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: NOW, WHEN I ASK YOU A QUESTION, YOU LOOK OVER AT THE LAWYERS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TABLE, CORRECT? A: (IN ENGLISH) I CAN TURN MY CHAIR THIS WAY. MS. LEWIS: WHAT DID SHE SAY? THE WITNESS: (IN ENGLISH) I CAN SEE ONLY YOU. NOW, OKAY. I TURN THIS WAY. I LOOK AT HIM BETTER THAN YOU. THE COURT: ACTUALLY, MISS LOPEZ, SINCE WE ARE TAPE-RECORDING -- THE WITNESS: OKAY. THE COURT: -- I WOULD PREFER IF YOU LOOK AT MR. DARDEN? THE WITNESS: TAKE AT MY PICTURE. BEAUTIFUL TODAY. EVERYBODY CAN LOOK AT ME TODAY. MR. DARDEN: YOU CAN LOOK AT THE CAMERA IF YOU DON'T WANT TO LOOK AT ME. THE WITNESS: OKAY. THAT'S FINE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: LET ME ASK YOU AGAIN. WERE YOU VISITED AT YOUR HOTEL BY ONE OF THESE LAWYERS ON SUNDAY? A: NO, SIR. Q: WERE YOU VISITED BY MR. DOUGLAS HERE WITH THE RED TIE HERE, (INDICATING)? A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) Q: LAST SUNDAY? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. NOW, YOU SAY YOU WERE TAKEN SHOPPING? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND WHEN YOU WENT SHOPPING, DID YOU SPEND YOUR OWN MONEY? A: MONEY THAT HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME AS A GIFT, SIR. Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU WENT SHOPPING ON SUNDAY, DID SOMEONE BUY YOU CLOTHES? A: MY WIFE'S -- THE INTERPRETER: EXCUSE ME. SCRATCH THAT. THE COURT: THE WIFE OF MY ATTORNEY. THE WITNESS: MY ATTORNEY'S WIFE, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DO YOU SEE YOUR ATTORNEY'S WIFE HERE IN COURT NOW? A: NO, SIR. Q: WAS THAT MR. JONES' WIFE THAT BOUGHT YOU CLOTHES? A: NO, SIR. Q: WAS IT MISS HAMBURGER'S WIFE THAT BOUGHT YOU CLOTHES? MR. COCHRAN: I THINK COUNSEL -- YOUR HONOR, COUNSEL MISSTATES HIMSELF, OBVIOUSLY. THE COURT: NO. I THINK IT IS DELIBERATELY ASKED THAT WAY. MR. COCHRAN: WELL, YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM. THE COURT: HOW ABOUT THE SPOUSE OF MISS HAMBURGER, JUST TO CLARIFY. MR. DARDEN: OKAY. MS. CLARK: SHE SAID "WIFE." Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHO IS THE HUSBAND OF THE WIFE THAT BOUGHT YOU CLOTHES ON SUNDAY? A: MR. CARL JONES, SIR. Q: OKAY. MR. CARL JONES' WIFE BOUGHT YOU CLOTHES? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. OKAY. DID HE BUY YOU THE SHOES YOU ARE WEARING TODAY? A: HE BOUGHT ME TWO PAIR, SIR. Q: TWO PAIRS OF SHOES. AND DID HE BUY YOU THE LAVENDER DRESS YOU WORE IN COURT ON MONDAY? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND DID HE BUY YOU THE LOVELY DRESS YOU ARE WEARING HERE TODAY? A: THANK YOU, SIR, BUT THIS WAS BOUGHT FOR ME BY MISS HAMBURGER. Q: OKAY. AND THE BLAZER YOU ARE WEARING, WHO BOUGHT THAT FOR YOU? A: THE LADY BOUGHT IT FOR ME YESTERDAY. Q: WHAT LADY? A: MRS. HAMBURGER. Q: OKAY. NOW, WHEN YOU LEFT THE SALINGER'S ON FEBRUARY 10, THEY GAVE YOU SOME MONEY, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR, THEY HAD TO PAY ME. Q: OKAY. THEY GAVE YOU MORE THAN A THOUSAND DOLLARS? A: NO, SIR. Q: HOW MUCH MONEY DID THEY GIVE YOU? A: DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU, SIR? Q: YES. A: THAT I CAN REMEMBER, SIR, THEY GAVE ME TWO SMALL CHECKS, SIR. Q: WAS ONE OF THOSE SMALL CHECKS FOR $700.00? A: NO, SIR. Q: WHAT WAS THE CHECK FOR? A: 318, SIR, AND SOME CENTS. Q: OKAY. WHAT WAS THE OTHER CHECK FOR? A: 318, SIR. Q: SO HE GAVE YOU $638.00? A: (IN ENGLISH) SOMETHING LIKE THAT. THE COURT: 36. MR. COCHRAN: 36. THE INTERPRETER: SOMETHING LIKE THAT. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: NOW, WHEN YOU LEFT THE SALINGER'S YOU WENT TO YOUR DAUGHTER'S HOUSE, RIGHT? A: YES, SIR. Q: NOW, THE ATTORNEY THAT YOU GOT ORIGINALLY -- MR. JONES, RIGHT? A: YES, SIR. Q: -- HE WAS RECOMMENDED TO YOU BY MR. JOHNNIE? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY MR. JONES, CORRECT? A: WE HAVE MADE ARRANGEMENTS THAT I'M GOING TO PAY HIM LITTLE BY LITTLE WHEN I START WORKING, SIR. Q: OKAY. WELL, LAST FRIDAY WHEN YOU TESTIFIED, YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE GOING TO PAY HIM WHEN THE CASE WAS OVER, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: WELL, YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION WITH REGARD TO TESTIMONY. I THINK IT IS IMPROPER FORM. THE QUESTION IS NOT BASED ON FACTS. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: LAST FRIDAY YOU TOLD US THAT YOU WERE TO PAY MR. JONES AFTER THE CASE WAS OVER, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND THAT IS THE ARRANGEMENT YOU HAVE WITH HIM, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY HIM IN SMALL PORTIONS, AS YOU JUST INDICATED A MOMENT AGO, CORRECT. MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM. THAT IS NOT INCONSISTENT, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: YES, I DO, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, HOW MUCH ARE YOU GOING TO PAY HIM -- WELL, STRIKE THAT. HOW MUCH DOES MR. JONES CHARGE PER HOUR? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THAT. MAY WE APPROACH? I THINK WE -- THE COURT: I HAVEN'T HEARD AN OBJECTION. OVERRULED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: HOW MUCH DOES MR. JONES CHARGE PER HOUR? MR. COCHRAN: ISN'T THAT PRIVILEGED, YOUR HONOR? MS. HAMBURGER: YOUR HONOR -- MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, WE WENT THROUGH THIS LAST WEEK. MR. JONES WAS HERE AND I CONFERRED WITH HIM PRIOR TO EVEN DISCUSSING THE FEE ARRANGEMENT, AND HE HAD NO OBJECTION AND THERE WAS A WAIVER, CLEARLY A WAIVER IN THE RECORD ALREADY. MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS A PRIVILEGED STATEMENT, IT SEEMS TO ME. THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS AS FAR AS MISS LOPEZ IS CONCERNED AT THIS TIME. WE DO NEED TO INQUIRE, HOWEVER, INTO ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE BEFORE WE BREAK FOR THE AFTERNOON. MISS LOPEZ, I'M GOING TO EXCUSE YOU AT THIS TIME. WE ARE NOT COMPLETED WITH OUR QUESTIONS, BUT WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK FOR LUNCH. I'M GOING TO ORDER YOU TO RETURN AT 1:30. AND MISS HAMBURGER, WOULD YOU ESCORT YOUR CLIENT -- WHY DON'T YOU WAIT FOR ONE MINUTE, BECAUSE WE NEED TO CHAT WITH YOU. MISS LOPEZ, YOU ARE ORDERED TO COME BACK AT 1:30. THE WITNESS: THANK YOU, SIR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS HAMBURGER, DO YOU WANT TO APPROACH, PLEASE. (ROSA LOPEZ EXITS THE COURTROOM.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS HAMBURGER, DO YOU WANT TO ADDRESS THE COURT ON THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS AN ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE HERE? MS. HAMBURGER: I DO, YOUR HONOR. I, OF COURSE, TOOK OVER ON SHORT NOTICE FROM MR. JONES AND I HAVE NOT CONFERRED WITH HIM ON THIS OSTENSIBLE WAIVER. THE COURT: ISSUE. MS. HAMBURGER: AND THEREFORE I BEG ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE UNTIL I ASCERTAIN OTHERWISE, IF THERE IS AN OTHERWISE. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHY DON'T YOU THEN TAKE THE NOON HOUR TO CONTACT MR. JONES, CONFER WITH HIM; HOWEVER, WE DID VISIT THIS ISSUE DURING THE COURSE OF THE HEARING WHETHER OR NOT TO CONDUCT A 1335. MR. JONES WAS PRESENT HERE IN THE COURTROOM. THERE WERE SIMILAR QUESTIONS ASKED WITHOUT OBJECTION, SO THAT IS THE HISTORY OF THE CASE. MR. COCHRAN: I RECALL THAT THERE WAS NOT A QUESTION OF THE AMOUNT OF THE FEE, THOUGH. THE COURT: THERE WAS NOT A QUESTION AS TO THE HOURLY RATE. MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S RIGHT. THE COURT: THERE WAS A QUESTION REGARDING THE FEE ARRANGEMENT. MR. COCHRAN: BUT NOT THE AMOUNT, AND THAT IS -- I THOUGHT THAT HE SHOULD CERTAINLY HAVE A RIGHT -- MS. HAMBURGER: YOUR HONOR, I SAID NOTHING ABOUT THE FEE ARRANGEMENT. THAT IS WHY I WILL CONFER WITH MR. JONES. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHY DON'T YOU CONFER WITH MR. JONES AND SEE IF THE PRIVILEGE IS GOING TO BE ASSERTED AND WE WILL COME BACK AT 1:30. MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. I WOULD LIKE LEAVE OF THE COURT TO POINT OUT THE PORTIONS IN THE TRANSCRIPT WHERE THIS WAS ALREADY BROUGHT OUT. THERE HAS BEEN A WAIVER OF THIS ARGUMENT COMPLETELY. THE COURT: WE WILL SEE AFTER MISS HAMBURGER COMES BACK. SHE MAY AGREE THAT IT IS AN ISSUE THAT THEY DON'T WISH TO CONTEST, WHO KNOWS, BUT I WILL HEAR THE ARGUMENT AT 1:30. MS. CLARK: OKAY. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE WILL STAND IN RECESS UNTIL 1:30. MS. HAMBURGER: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. (AT 12:00 P.M. THE NOON RECESS WAS TAKEN UNTIL 1:30 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.) LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, MARCH 2, 1995 1:40 P.M. DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE APPEARANCES: (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.) (JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (CHRISTINE OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.) (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:) THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. ALL THE PARTIES ARE AGAIN PRESENT. I THINK WE'RE MISSING MISS CLARK. IS SHE AVAILABLE? MS. LEWIS: SHE WILL BE DOWN A LITTLE BIT LATER, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: MR. DARDEN, ARE YOU PREPARED TO PROCEED WITHOUT MISS CLARK? MR. DARDEN: YES, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S HAVE IT QUIET IN THE COURTROOM, PLEASE. ALL RIGHT. MISS HAMBURGER, DID YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DISCUSS THE MATTERS WITH YOUR COCOUNSEL, MR. JONES? MS. HAMBURGER: YES, YOUR HONOR. I DID EXACTLY AS YOU SAID. MR. JONES HAS NO RECOLLECTION OF A WAIVER OF A PARTICULAR HOURLY CHARGE. HOWEVER, HE HAS NO OBJECTIONS ABOUT ANY ARRANGEMENT THAT HE MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE MADE WITH MISS LOPEZ. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. AND IF YOU CAN REMAIN IN THE COURTROOM IN CASE THERE'S ANY OTHER ISSUE THAT COMES UP OR ANY OTHER OBJECTION YOU WISH TO MAKE ON BEHALF OF MISS LOPEZ. MS. HAMBURGER: THANK YOU. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. ALL RIGHT. GOOD AFTERNOON AGAIN, MISS LOPEZ. THANK YOU FOR COMING BACK. RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT ALL PARTIES ARE PRESENT. THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR. ROSA MARIA LOPEZ, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE LUNCH RECESS, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER THROUGH THE SPANISH INTERPRETER, AS FOLLOWS: THE COURT: MISS LOPEZ, YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH. MR. DARDEN, YOU MAY CONTINUE WITH YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION. MR. DARDEN: THANK YOU. CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. DARDEN: Q: GOOD AFTERNOON, MISS LOPEZ. A: GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR. Q: MISS LOPEZ, HOW MUCH DOES YOUR ATTORNEY CHARGE YOU PER HOUR? A: WE HAVEN'T SPOKEN ABOUT HOW MUCH HE'S GOING TO CHARGE ME. I HAVE TOLD HIM THAT WHEN THE CASE IS OVER, WE'RE GOING TO TALK SO THAT I CAN PAY HIM LITTLE BY LITTLE. Q: SO AT THIS POINT THEN, THERE IS NO AGREEMENT AS TO AN HOURLY RATE, CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND HAS HE CHARGED YOU A FLAT FEE? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. BUT YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT PAYING HIM COMPLETELY UNTIL AFTER THE CASE IS OVER, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AS A MATTER OF FACT, THE TWO OF YOU ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU OWE HIM, IF ANYTHING, AFTER THE CASE IS OVER, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. SO AT THIS POINT THEN, YOU BASICALLY HAVE A FREE LAWYER; IS THAT CORRECT? A: I DON'T THINK SO, SIR. Q: WELL, HAVE YOU GIVEN HIM ANY MONEY? SI OR NO? A: NO. Q: OKAY. DID YOU SIGN ANY WRITTEN AGREEMENT? THE INTERPRETER: EXCUSE ME. COULD WE GO BACK? THE COURT: YES. THE INTERPRETER: TWO QUESTIONS? Q: BY MR. DARDEN: TWO QUESTIONS. BUT YOU HAVEN'T PAID HIM ANY MONEY YET; IS THAT CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. YOU HAVEN'T GIVEN HIM ANY MONEY? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. HAVE YOU SIGNED ANY PAPERS? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND YOU'RE PLANNING TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY TOMORROW, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN YOU'RE COMING BACK, CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. Q: AND YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE EVER GOING TO COME BACK, DO YOU? A: I CAN COME BACK WHENEVER I WANT TO, SIR. Q: OKAY. BUT DO YOU PLAN TO COME BACK? A: NOT FOR A SHORT TIME, SIR. Q: WHAT'S A SHORT TIME? A: MAYBE NOT -- MAYBE NOT UNTIL JANUARY, DECEMBER. WHENEVER I WISH TO COME BACK, SIR. I'M FREE. Q: OKAY. THIS MORNING WHEN I ASKED YOU SOME QUESTIONS, YOU COULD NOT RECALL CERTAIN INCIDENTS AND CERTAIN TIMES, CORRECT? A: THAT'S TRUE. Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU HAD TROUBLE RECALLING TIMES AND EVENTS ON JUNE 13 AS WELL, CORRECT? A: I DON'T BELIEVE SO, SIR. Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU TOLD US ABOUT THE VOICES AND FOOTSTEPS AND PROWLERS AND BARKING DOGS THAT YOU HEARD, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: COMPLEX, YOUR HONOR. COMPOUND. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, YOU TOLD US ABOUT THE VOICES YOU HEARD, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. BUT YOU DON'T REALLY REMEMBER WHAT TIME OF THE EVENING IT WAS THAT YOU HEARD THOSE VOICES, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR, BECAUSE THERE WERE VOICES HEARD AT DIFFERENT TIMES AND DIFFERENT VOICES. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION BECAUSE IT'S VAGUE AS TO WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT TIME YOU HEARD ANY OF THOSE VOICES, CORRECT? A: IT DEPENDS ON WHICH VOICES YOU'RE REFERRING TO, SIR. Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY A REPORTER FROM KABC ON JUNE 13, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND HE ASKED YOU WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT YOU HEARD VOICES, CORRECT? A: I HAVEN'T SPOKEN TO ANY REPORTER, FEMALE CONNOTATION, SIR, REGARDING VOICES OR ANYTHING. Q: DID A REPORTER ASK YOU ON JUNE 13, 1994 WHETHER OR NOT YOU HEARD VOICES? A: SO MANY THINGS -- SO MANY THINGS ARE BEING ASKED OF ME, I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: YOU DON'T REMEMBER TELLING THE KABC REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD VOICES, BUT THAT YOU DID NOT KNOW WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU HEARD THOSE VOICES? A: I HAVE NEVER TOLD ANY ONE OF THE REPORTERS THAT I HAVE HEARD VOICES, SIR. Q: DID YOU TELL A REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD THE VOICES OF LITTLE BOYS COMING FROM MR. SIMPSON'S HOME THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12? A: NO, SIR. Q: DID YOU EVER TELL A REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD THE SOUNDS OF VOICES COMING FROM MR. SIMPSON'S HOME THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12? A: NO, SIR. MR. DARDEN: MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: CERTAINLY. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) THE COURT: HAVE YOU SHOWN THAT TO COUNSEL? MR. DARDEN: I WAS JUST ABOUT TO DO THAT. CAN WE CUE UP A VIDEO FOR MR. COCHRAN AND I -- THE COURT: CAN WE HAVE THE VIDEO ON THE MONITORS ON DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE COURT? MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE SEE IT FIRST? THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN: THIS IS A VIDEO APPARENTLY AIRED ON JANUARY 3RD. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU OBJECT TO THE WITNESS SEEING IT? MR. DARDEN: YES. MAY WE HAVE THE WITNESS STEP OUT BECAUSE THERE'S ALSO AUDIO. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS HAMBURGER, WOULD YOU ESCORT YOUR CLIENT INTO THE JURY ROOM, PLEASE, FOR A FEW MOMENTS WHILE WE VIEW THE VIDEOTAPE? MR. COCHRAN: WHAT'S THE DATE OF THIS VIDEO? THE COURT: I DON'T KNOW YET. WE'LL FIND OUT IN A -- THAT'S WHY WE'RE GOING TO VIEW IT OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE OF THE WITNESS. ALL RIGHT. MISS LOPEZ, WE NEED TO LOOK AT A VIDEOTAPE. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO STEP BACK WITH YOUR ATTORNEY INTO THE JURY ROOM, AND WE'LL BRING YOU OUT IN ABOUT FIVE OR 10 MINUTES. THE WITNESS: OKAY. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MA'AM. (THE WITNESS EXITS THE COURTROOM.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THE WITNESS HAS WITHDRAWN WITH HER COUNSEL FROM THE COURTROOM. MR. DARDEN, IS THIS TAPE IN ENGLISH OR HAVE ANY SPANISH IN IT? MR. DARDEN: IT IS IN ENGLISH, ALTHOUGH THERE ARE ONE OR TWO WORDS SPOKEN IN SPANISH. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THEN I'LL ASK OUR SPANISH INTERPRETERS TO REMAIN IN CASE THERE'S ANYTHING WE NEED INTERPRETED FOR THE RECORD. ALL RIGHT. PROCEED. (AT 1:45 P.M., A VIDEOTAPE WAS PLAYED.) (AT 1:45 P.M., THE PLAYING OF THE VIDEOTAPE ENDED.) (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S SEE THAT ONE MORE TIME. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I DIDN'T HEAR WHAT YOU SAID. THE COURT: I SAID I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT ONE MORE TIME. THE INTERPRETER: YOUR HONOR, IS THERE ANY WAY WE COULD SEE THIS MONITOR SO WE CAN WATCH OUT FOR ANYTHING? THE COURT: THERE SHOULD BE A MONITOR RIGHT THERE. DO WE HAVE THAT ON THE -- WE CAN PUT THAT ON THE LARGE SCREEN, MISS FITZPATRICK. CAN WE START THE AUDIO FROM THE BEGINNING TOO? MR. FAIRTLOUGH: SURE. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. (AT 1:47 P.M., A VIDEOTAPE WAS PLAYED.) (AT 1:48 P.M., THE PLAYING OF THE VIDEOTAPE ENDED.) MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, SHE -- THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN, I TAKE IT YOU WANT TO CONFRONT MISS LOPEZ WITH WHAT ASPECT, WHAT STATEMENT THERE? MR. DARDEN: THAT SHE TOLD A REPORTER SHE HEARD VOICES. SHE JUST TOLD US SHE NEVER TOLD THE REPORTER SHE HEARD VOICES. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I THOUGHT HE ALSO SAID SOMETHING ABOUT LITTLE BOYS. AND I HEARD HER SAY BOYS, NOT VOICE. UNKNOWN VOICE FROM THE AUDIENCE: RIGHT. MR. DARDEN: WELL, I ASKED HER ABOUT VOICES AND BOY JUST TO MAKE SURE THERE WAS NO AMBIGUITY. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THAT WAS ASKED BOTH WAY. MR. COCHRAN: I THOUGHT HE SAID BOYS AT SOME POINT. THE COURT: YES, HE DID. BUT THEN THE NEXT QUESTION WAS, "DID YOU EVER TELL A REPORTER YOU HEARD VOICES?" ALL RIGHT. THE NEXT TIME I HEAR SOMETHING OUT OF THE AUDIENCE, WE'RE GOING TO CLEAR THE AUDIENCE. THANK YOU. MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH THE REPORTER, JUDGE -- THE INTERPRETER? THE COURT: CERTAINLY. (A CONFERENCE WAS HELD BETWEEN MR. COCHRAN AND THE INTERPRETER, NOT REPORTED.) MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MAY I -- THE COURT: CERTAINLY. MR. COCHRAN: -- INDICATE TO THE COURT, THE INTERPRETER CORRECTLY, QUITE CORRECTLY HAS INDICATED TO ME THAT THE QUESTION SHE ASKED WAS, DID SHE EVER SAY SHE HEARD THE VOICES OF LITTLE BOYS, IS WHAT SHE REMEMBERS. AND SO THIS WOULD NOT BE IMPEACHING BECAUSE SHE SAID SHE HEARD VOICES AND NOTHING ABOUT LITTLE -- ABOUT BOYS. I THINK THAT'S WHAT SHE INDICATED TO ME. THE COURT: WELL, COUNSEL, LET ME READ YOU THE RECORD. MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. THE COURT: IT'S: "QUESTION: DID YOU TELL A REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD THE VOICES OF LITTLE BOYS COMING FROM MR. SIMPSON'S HOME THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 12TH? "ANSWER: NO, SIR. "QUESTION: DID YOU EVER TELL A REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD THE SOUND OF VOICES COMING FROM MR. SIMPSON'S HOME THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12TH? "ANSWER: NO, SIR." SO IT WAS ASKED BOTH WAYS. MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. THE COURT: WHICH WAS MY RECOLLECTION. ALL RIGHT. ANYTHING ELSE? ALL RIGHT. MRS. ROBERTSON, WOULD YOU GET MISS LOPEZ FOR US AGAIN. MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THE ONLY OTHER THING I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT -- THE COURT: YES, SIR. MR. COCHRAN: IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IF THAT IS IMPEACHING, IT IS IMPEACHING ON A COLLATERAL MATTER BECAUSE WHAT THIS DOES IS ACTUALLY REINFORCE WHAT SHE SAID IN COURT HERE UNDER OATH, THAT SHE HEARD VOICES THAT NIGHT, LATE IN THE NIGHT. THE OTHER PART WAS, SHE SAID, "I HEARD VOICES LATE IN THE NIGHT." SO I'LL SUBMIT IT, YOUR HONOR, BUT I THINK IF THE COURT RECALLED THE TESTIMONY, THAT'S ALSO THE TESTIMONY. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. IT IS AN INCONSISTENT STATEMENT THOUGH ABOUT EVENTS OF JUNE THE 12TH. MR. COCHRAN: WELL -- (THE WITNESS IS AGAIN PRESENT.) THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS LOPEZ, WOULD YOU TAKE THE WITNESS STAND AGAIN, PLEASE. ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN, YOU MAY RESUME. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU A VIDEOTAPE, SOME NEWS FOOTAGE. MR. DARDEN: AND I WOULD LIKE THE VIDEOCASSETTE MARKED PEOPLE'S 89, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 89, VIDEOCASSETTE. (PEO'S 89 FOR ID = VIDEO CASSETTE) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: CAN YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE MONITOR, PLEASE? (AT 1:50 P.M., PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 89, A VIDEOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.) (AT 1:51 P.M., THE PLAYING OF THE VIDEOTAPE ENDED.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: NOW, BEFORE YOU LEFT THE WITNESS STAND, YOU TOLD US THAT YOU NEVER TOLD A REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD VOICES, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. BUT NOW YOU SEE YOURSELF THERE ON TELEVISION, RIGHT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND YOU DID TELL A REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD VOICES, DIDN'T YOU? A: NOISES, NOT VOICES, SIR. Q: SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU SAID "NOISE" ON THE TAPE? A: YES, SIR. Q: BUT YOU DIDN'T SAY VOICE? A: NO. Q: OKAY. THE REPORTER ASKED YOU WHAT YOU SAW AND HEARD THAT DAY, CORRECT? A: WHAT HAD I HEARD. Q: OKAY. HE ALSO ASKED YOU WHAT YOU SAW, DIDN'T HE? A: I DON'T THINK I WAS ASKED WHAT I SAW. Q: OKAY. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MR. DARDEN: CAN WE PLAY IT AGAIN, YOUR HONOR, ONE MORE TIME, PEOPLE'S 89? MR. COCHRAN: HAS THAT BEEN MARKED, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: THAT'S PEOPLE'S 89. MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: AND DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THIS, MR. COCHRAN? MR. COCHRAN: NO. I'VE NEVER BEEN GIVEN A COPY OF THIS. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE EVER SEEN IT. MAY WE APPROACH IN REGARD TO THAT ALSO, YOUR HONOR, WITH REGARD TO THAT? THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. DARDEN. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:) THE COURT: WE'RE AT THE SIDEBAR. MR. COCHRAN: I WAS NEVER GIVEN A COPY OF THIS PARTICULAR TAPE. AND THE ONLY REASON I WANTED TO COME UP HERE WAS, THEY ALWAYS OBJECT TO EVERYTHING, SEEM TO BE SURPRISED. THIS SEEMS TO BE CUT. I DON'T KNOW. I'VE NEVER SEEN THIS TAPE. SAME PROBLEMS. I ASSUME IT'S GOING TO BE USED FOR IMPEACHMENT. I'VE NEVER SEEN THIS ONE. I GUESS IT'S IMPEACHING ABOUT WHETHER SHE TALKED TO A REPORTER, BUT SHE'S BEEN CONSISTENT ABOUT HEARING VOICES AND NOISES OR WHATEVER LATE IN THE NIGHT. SO I THINK -- BUT I NEVER HAVE SEEN THIS BEFORE. I DON'T HAVE A COPY OF THIS. I NEVER HAD ANY OF THIS. WE HAD SOME MAJOR -- MAJOR BATTLES OVER -- THE COURT: FOUNDATION. MR. COCHRAN: CUTTING -- FOUNDATION. SPLICING -- CUTTING, SPLICING, THAT SORT OF THING. SO I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. MR. DARDEN: THESE ARE HER OWN WORDS AND IT WAS ON T.V. TWO NIGHTS AGO. SO AGAIN -- (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MR. DARDEN: COCOUNSEL POINTS OUT, THESE ARE HER OWN WORDS. MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S NOT FOUNDATIONAL. I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE SHE MAY HAVE SAID. THIS IS CUT. IT'S OBVIOUSLY CUT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT. SO WITHOUT FOUNDATION, YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. AND I THINK IT'S THE SAME ARGUMENT THEY MADE WITH REGARD TO THE VIDEO THAT WE USED WHERE WE HAD TO NAME THE CAMERAMAN IF THE COURT RECALLS. SO I OBJECT TO THIS ON FOUNDATIONAL GROUNDS. I THINK IT'S COLLATERAL IMPEACHMENT, BUT I OBJECT ON FOUNDATIONAL GROUNDS. THE COURT: WE DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAVE TO GET THE CAMERAMAN. I DID ALLOW YOU TO LAY A FOUNDATION WITH THE WITNESSES WHO WERE THERE. MR. COCHRAN: BUT YOU ASKED US TO GIVE THE CAMERAMAN TO THE PROSECUTION, WHICH WE DID AS I RECALL. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. COCHRAN: AND I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT KABC. MR. DARDEN: NOW, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU KNOW, WE ASKED KABC FOR THE COMPLETE UNCUT VERSION OF THIS INTERVIEW, AND WE WERE TOLD YOU ASKED THEM FOR THE SAME THING. MR. COCHRAN: NOT OF THIS INTERVIEW. MR. DARDEN: THAT'S WHAT I WAS TOLD. MR. COCHRAN: YOU WERE TOLD WRONG. I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WELL, JUST AS A MATTER OF COURTESY, I THINK COUNSEL IS ENTITLED TO GET A COPY OF IT. SO -- MR. DARDEN: SURE. THE COURT: AND YOU'LL PROVIDE THIS I'M SURE, MR. DARDEN, SOMETIME BY TOMORROW? MR. DARDEN: CERTAINLY BY 9:30 TOMORROW. THE COURT: BUT I DID ALLOW -- MR. COCHRAN, ON YOUR OTHER POINT, I DID ALLOW THE OFFICER TO TESTIFY, "YEAH, THAT'S ME. THAT'S THE CORONER'S REPRESENTATIVE." I DID ALLOW THE WITNESS TO AUTHENTICATE THE TAPE FOR FOUNDATIONAL REASONS. I AGREE WITH YOU, PERHAPS MR. DARDEN DIDN'T ASK SOME OF THE FUNDAMENTAL FOUNDATIONAL QUESTIONS SUCH AS, "DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PERSON WHO WAS THERE," BUT IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL. MR. COCHRAN: AND I WOULDN'T MAKE A BIG DEAL OVER SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT THE PROBLEM I HAVE IS THAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE THERE IS. THE COURT: I AGREE. MR. COCHRAN: THIS IS NOT THE ENTIRE INTERVIEW. I DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE THERE IS. MS. LEWIS: IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE ENTIRE -- (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MR. COCHRAN: COULD WE JUST HAVE ONE PERSON TALKING? MR. DARDEN: SHE CAN TALK TO ME, MR. COCHRAN. A QUESTION WAS POSED AND SHE GAVE AN ANSWER. MR. COCHRAN: I'M JUST ASKING -- THE COURT: WELL, WE'RE HERE JUST AS A -- MY UNDERSTANDING OF OUR DISCUSSION HERE, WE'RE JUST HERE TO DISCUSS PROFESSIONAL COURTESY, THAT YOU WILL MAKE A COPY AVAILABLE TO MR. COCHRAN. MR. DARDEN: HAVE YOU SEEN THE VIDEO OF MR. COCHRAN SIGNALING TO THE WITNESS? MR. COCHRAN: SIGNALLING WHAT WITNESS? MR. DARDEN: IT'S ON EVERY NEWS STATION IN THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW. MR. COCHRAN: WHAT SIGNAL TO WHAT WITNESS? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT. MS. CLARK: YOU WILL. THE COURT: COUNSEL, AT THIS POINT, THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED. LET'S PROCEED. THANK YOU. MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: MISS LOPEZ, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR AGAIN AND PAY CAREFUL ATTENTION, OKAY, IF YOU WOULD, PLEASE. I'M GOING TO REPLAY THE VIDEOTAPE WE JUST PLAYED FOR YOU A MOMENT AGO. (AT 1:57 P.M., PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 89, A VIDEOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.) (AT 1:58 P.M. THE PLAYING OF THE VIDEOTAPE ENDED.) THE COURT: SOUNDS LIKE JOHN NORRIS. MR. DARDEN: OKAY. THE COURT: MR. DARDEN. MR. DARDEN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: THE REPORTER ASKED YOU WHAT YOU SAW AND HEARD THAT DAY, DIDN'T HE? A: YES, SIR. Q: AND YOU NEVER TOLD HIM THAT YOU HEARD BARKING DOGS, DID YOU? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, JUST A MOMENT. THAT'S AN UNFAIR QUESTION. WAS SHE ASKED THAT? THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: NO, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT THE POLICE, SIR. I DIDN'T HAVE TO GIVE MY DECLARATION TO ANY LAYPERSON. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU DIDN'T TELL THAT REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD FOOTSTEPS, DID YOU? A: NO, SIR. Q: AND YOU DIDN'T TELL THAT REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD A PROWLER, DID YOU? A: I NEVER SAID THAT HE WAS A PROWLER, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND YOU DIDN'T TELL THE REPORTER THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO PARKED ON ROCKINGHAM, DID YOU? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, SHE WAS NEVER ASKED THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. HOW COULD THAT -- I DON'T UNDERSTAND. THAT'S AN UNFAIR QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: AND YOU NEVER TOLD THAT REPORTER THAT YOU HAD SEEN THE BRONCO THE NIGHT BEFORE, DID YOU? A: NO, SIR. Q: ALL YOU TOLD THE REPORTER WAS THAT YOU HEARD VOICES AND THAT YOU DID NOT KNOW AT WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT YOU HEARD THOSE VOICES, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT'S NOT A FAIR QUESTION. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. MR. COCHRAN: IT'S BEEN EDITED. WE DON'T KNOW -- THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT. SUSTAINED. THAT ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE. THERE'S NO DISCUSSION OF TIME ON THE TAPE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, WHEN YOU TOLD THE REPORTER THAT YOU HEARD VOICES, DIDN'T YOU TELL HIM THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT YOU HEARD THE VOICES? A: YES, SIR. Q: ALL YOU KNEW WAS THAT YOU HEARD THE VOICE -- THE VOICES VERY, VERY LATE, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION, "ALL YOU KNEW." SHE KNEW A LOT MORE. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: ALL YOU KNEW ABOUT THE TIMING OF THE VOICES IS THAT YOU HEARD THEM VERY, VERY LATE, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME YOU HEARD THE VOICES THAT NIGHT, DO YOU? A: YES, SIR. Q: DO YOU KNOW THE TIME YOU HEARD THE VOICES? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. WHICH VOICES? IT'S VAGUE, YOUR HONOR, WHAT VOICES WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE ONES THAT ARE ON THE TAPE. THE WITNESS: IT DEPENDS ON WHICH ONES YOU'RE ASKING ME ABOUT, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. DO YOU KNOW THE TIME THAT YOU HEARD SOME OF THE VOICES YOU HEARD THAT NIGHT? A: UMM, AFTER 11:30 TO 12:00. Q: OKAY. OTHER THAN THOSE VOICES, YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN YOU HEARD ANY OTHER VOICE THAT YOU HEARD THAT NIGHT, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: NOW, YOU TOLD US DURING YOUR TESTIMONY EARLIER THAT YOU ONLY MET MR. SIMPSON ONE TIME, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: BUT THAT WASN'T TRUE, WAS IT? A: IT IS TRUE, SIR. Q: WELL, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU'VE SPOKEN TO MR. SIMPSON -- WELL, STRIKE THAT. ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU HAVE SPOKEN TO MR. SIMPSON ON AT LEAST THREE OR FOUR DIFFERENT OCCASIONS? MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT. OBJECTION. THAT'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION. SHE SAID MET MR. SIMPSON. NOW HE'S TALKING ABOUT SPEAKING. IT'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: ISN'T IT TRUE THAT YOU HAD SPOKEN TO MR. SIMPSON ON THREE OR FOUR DIFFERENT OCCASIONS? A: NO, SIR. ONE TIME. Q: DIDN'T YOU TELL THE REPORTER THAT YOU SPOKE TO ON THIS VIDEOTAPE THAT YOU HAD SPOKEN TO MR. SIMPSON MANY, MANY TIMES? A: THAT I HAVE SEEN HIM MANY TIMES? YES. BUT NOT THAT I HAVE TALKED TO HIM. Q: OKAY. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: THE VOICES YOU HEARD AROUND 11:30 OR 12:00, WERE THOSE THE LAST VOICES YOU HEARD THAT NIGHT? A: YES, SIR. Q: WELL, WHEN YOU TESTIFIED THE OTHER DAY -- THIS IS AT PAGE 16524 -- YOU TESTIFIED THAT YOU HEARD VOICES AROUND 12:30. MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT, YOUR HONOR. IT'S NOT INCONSISTENT. THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, COUNSEL. MR. COCHRAN: I OBJECT TO THAT, THE FORM OF THAT LAST QUESTION, HEARD VOICES AT 12:30. SHE DIDN'T SAY HOW LONG THE VOICES LASTED. THAT'S -- OBJECTION TO THE QUESTION. IT'S NOT IMPEACHING. THE COURT: OVERRULED. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU TESTIFIED THE OTHER DAY YOU SAID YOU HEARD THE VOICES AT 12:30, CORRECT? A: UP UNTIL 12:30, SIR. THAT'S WHAT I SAID. Q: OKAY. NOW, DID YOU GET THAT CUE FROM MR. COCHRAN'S OBJECTION HERE? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT'S ARGUMENTATIVE. THAT'S ARGUMENTATIVE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: HE HASN'T GIVEN ME ANY CUE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. DID YOU EVER SEE MR. COCHRAN WAIVE HIS HANDS LIKE THIS BACK AND FORTH ACROSS HIS CHEST TODAY (INDICATING)? A: NO, SIR. THE COURT: I KNOW WE HAVE VIDEOTAPE, BUT DO YOU WANT TO DESCRIBE THE GESTURE YOU JUST MADE FOR THE RECORD? Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU NEVER SAW MR. COCHRAN MAKE A MOTION LIKE THIS (INDICATING) WITH HIS HANDS? A: NO, SIR. THE COURT: SORT OF A GESTURE SIMILAR TO AN EMPIRE INDICATING SAFE SEVERAL TIMES. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU EVER SEE MR. COCHRAN MAKE A GESTURE LIKE THIS (INDICATING) DURING YOUR TESTIMONY? A: NO, SIR. THE COURT: INDICATING A THIRD BASE COACH SAYING SLIDE. THAT'S ABOUT THE CLOSEST I CAN GET. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHEN THE REPORTER ASKED YOU WHAT YOU SAW AND HEARD, YOU DIDN'T -- YOU DID NOT TELL HIM THAT YOU HEARD MR. SIMPSON SPEAKING TO THE LIMOUSINE DRIVER, DID YOU? A: SIR, I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT HE WAS NOT THE POLICE FOR ME TO GIVE HIM MY INFORMATION. Q: I SHOWED YOU A DOCUMENT EARLIER THIS MORNING. IT'S A TWO-PAGE DOCUMENT FROM WILLIAM PAVELIC TO ROBERT SHAPIRO AND IT'S DATED JULY 29. MR. DARDEN: I BELIEVE THAT DOCUMENT HAS BEEN MARKED ALREADY, YOUR HONOR. HAS IT BEEN? THE COURT: 88. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: I'M GOING TO ASK THE INTERPRETER TO READ TO YOU THE FIRST FOUR PARAGRAPHS OF THE NARRATIVE AFTER, "DEAR MR. SHAPIRO." THEN I WANT TO ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THOSE PARAGRAPHS. THE INTERPRETER: I'M SORRY. WHAT WAS YOUR LAST STATEMENT? MR. DARDEN: I'M GOING TO ASK HER SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THE INFORMATION CONTAINED -- THE COURT: CAN WE TAKE IT PARAGRAPH BY PARAGRAPH? MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, I INTEND TO. THE COURT: WELL, HOW ABOUT IF WE HAVE HER READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH SO WE DON'T HAVE A RETENTION PROBLEM GOING BACK AND FORTH. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHY DON'T YOU READ THE FIRST PARAGRAPH. THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MADAM INTERPRETER. (THE INTERPRETER COMPLIES.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: BEFORE I ASK YOU ABOUT THAT -- (THE INTERPRETER CONTINUES READING.) THE COURT: IS THE PHONE NUMBER CHANGED NOW THAT'S IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH? MR. DARDEN: PARDON? THE COURT: THE PHONE NUMBER THAT'S IN THE FIRST PARAGRAPH, HAS THAT BEEN CHANGED OR -- MR. DARDEN: YES. THE COURT: GO AHEAD AND READ THE PARAGRAPH. (THE INTERPRETER COMPLIES.) THE WITNESS: THAT IS CORRECT. THE COURT: MR. DARDEN. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU INDICATED A MOMENT AGO THAT YOU DID NOT TELL THE REPORTER EVERYTHING BECAUSE HE WAS NOT A POLICE OFFICER, CORRECT? A: OF COURSE. Q: HAD HE BEEN A POLICE OFFICER, YOU WOULD HAVE TOLD HIM EVERYTHING, CORRECT? A: YES. Q: YOU WERE AT THE SALINGER'S ON JUNE 28TH, CORRECT? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: OKAY. DID YOU SAY YES? A: IF IT IS A WEEKDAY WHEN I'M SUPPOSED TO WORK, YES. Q: OKAY. WELL, LET ME SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH OF A MAN AND ASK YOU IF YOU RECOGNIZE THIS MAN. MR. DARDEN: I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH ON AN 8-1/2 BY 10-INCH PAGE HERE, YOUR HONOR. MAY IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 90? THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 90, NOW BEING DISPLAYED ON THE ELMO. (PEO'S 90 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SEE THE MAN PICTURED IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH? A: YES, SIR (IN ENGLISH). Q: HE'S SOMEONE THAT YOU'VE SPOKEN TO BEFORE, ISN'T HE? A: NO, SIR. Q: WELL, DIDN'T YOU SPEAK TO A POLICE DETECTIVE ON JUNE 28, 1994? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. YOU SPOKE TO DETECTIVE OTIS MARLOWE, CORRECT? A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR. Q: YOU SPOKE TO THE MAN IN THE PHOTOGRAPH, DIDN'T YOU? A: NO. I DON'T REMEMBER HIM. Q: OKAY. MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, FOR THE RECORD, THAT IS DETECTIVE OTIS MARLOWE. HE IS RETIRED FROM THE LAPD AND HE IS NOW AN INVESTIGATOR WITH THE PUBLIC DEFENDER'S OFFICE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU NEVER SPOKE TO THAT MAN? A: I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: OKAY. WELL, WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE DETECTIVE THAT YOU SPOKE TO OTHER THAN MARK FUHRMAN? MR. COCHRAN: WELL, ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR, THAT SHE SPOKE TO SOME OTHER DETECTIVE. THE COURT: NO. SHE INDICATED SHE DID IF IT WAS A WORKDAY ON JUNE 28TH. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WHAT WAS THE NAME OF THE OTHER DETECTIVE THAT YOU SPOKE TO? A: MARK FURHMAN. Q: OKAY. AND THERE WAS A SECOND ONE THAT YOU SPOKE TO ON JUNE 28TH, CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. ONLY ONE OF THEM CAME TO MY HOUSE. Q: OKAY. DIDN'T YOU SPEAK TO A DETECTIVE ON JUNE 28TH WHILE THE DETECTIVES WERE SEARCHING MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE? A: WHEN DID YOU SAY? THE 28TH OF WHAT? Q: JUNE 28TH, TUESDAY. A: JUNE 28TH WHAT? Q: TUESDAY, JUNE 28TH. A: A DETECTIVE CAME ONLY ONCE, SIR, AND I NEVER SAW ANOTHER ONE. Q: ISN'T IT TRUE THAT THE DETECTIVE PICTURED IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH ASKED YOU IF YOU HAD HEARD OR SEEN ANYTHING UNUSUAL THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12TH? A: NO, SIR (BEFORE INTERPRETATION). MR. DARDEN: I NEED ONE MOMENT TO FIND THE DOCUMENT, YOUR HONOR. YOUR HONOR, THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT THE WITNESS ANSWERED THE QUESTION BEFORE THE INTERPRETER INTERPRETED THE QUESTION. THE COURT: I THINK THE VIDEOTAPE WILL REFLECT THAT. MR. DARDEN: CAN I HAVE ONE MOMENT? THE COURT: CERTAINLY. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MR. DARDEN: MAY I, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: PLEASE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: YOU TOLD US THAT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WENT TO THE BACKYARD AT THE SALINGER'S HOME, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND DO YOU RECALL A DETECTIVE GOING TO THE BACKYARD SEVERAL DAYS LATER? A: THEY WENT AGAIN WITH THE LADY AND THEN THE LADY, MRS. SALINGER, LET THEM GO. Q: OKAY. AND THAT WAS ON JUNE 28, CORRECT? A: I DON'T KNOW WHAT DATE IT WAS BECAUSE I DID NOT OPEN THE DOOR, SIR. Q: OKAY. WELL, DIDN'T MRS. SALINGER INTRODUCE THE DETECTIVE TO YOU? A: NO, SIR. WHY? Q: WHY? BECAUSE YOU TOLD THE SALINGER'S YOU WERE HOME THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12TH, CORRECT? A: THE LADY HASN'T TOLD ME ANYTHING. Q: OKAY. WELL, DIDN'T DETECTIVE MARLOWE ASK YOU IF YOU RECALLED ANYTHING UNUSUAL? A: NO. Q: HEARD ANY NOISE, SAW ANY PERSON AT OR AROUND THE AREA? A: NO, SIR. Q: SO YOU NEVER SPOKE TO THIS MAN BEFORE, CORRECT? A: NO, SIR. Q: SO IF THIS DETECTIVE WERE TO TESTIFY THAT YOU DID, HE WOULD BE LYING, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION. ARGUMENTATIVE. THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE WITNESS: I DON'T REMEMBER HAVING SPOKEN TO HIM, SIR. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU DID NOT SPEAK TO HIM OR ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU MAY HAVE SPOKEN TO HIM, BUT YOU DON'T REMEMBER? A: I HAVE NOT -- I DID NOT TALK TO THAT GENTLEMAN. Q: OKAY. WELL, DO YOU RECOGNIZE HIM AS THE DETECTIVE THAT SPOKE WITH MRS. SALINGER? A: NO, SIR. I DON'T REMEMBER. Q: WELL, WHEN YOU SAY, "NO SIR, I DON'T REMEMBER", IS IT THAT YOU DON'T REMEMBER OR IS IT THAT HE IS NOT THE DETECTIVE YOU SPOKE TO? A: I -- I DID NOT TALK TO HIM, SIR. Q: WELL, THE SALINGER'S WERE NOT AT HOME ON JUNE 12, CORRECT? A: NO. Q: OKAY. IN FACT, THE SALINGER'S WERE OUT OF THE COUNTRY UNTIL WHAT, JUNE 18? A: ABOUT. I THINK THEY CAME BACK ON THE 17TH. Q: OKAY. NOW, THEY WERE IN BRITAIN, CORRECT? A: I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY LEFT TO. I THINK IT WAS BRITAIN. Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU TELEPHONED THEM IN BRITAIN, DIDN'T YOU? A: I CALLED THEM. I CALL THEM WHENEVER THERE'S A PROBLEM AT HOME, BUT THAT TIME, I DIDN'T CALL THEM THAT WEEK. Q: OKAY. YOU DIDN'T CALL THE SALINGER'S BETWEEN JUNE 12 AND JUNE 16? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: WELL, WERE YOU THE ONLY ONE STAYING IN THE HOUSE DURING THAT TIME PERIOD? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. SO IF SOMEONE TELEPHONED THE SALINGER'S FROM THE SALINGER'S HOME DURING THAT TIME PERIOD, THAT PERSON WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE BEEN YOU? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT DOESN'T FOLLOW -- THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY FOLLOW THE QUESTION. YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIVE THERE TO USE THE PHONE. THAT QUESTION -- THE COURT: YEAH. WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) MR. DARDEN: YOU KNOW, SPEAKING OBJECTIONS -- THE COURT: YES, THAT'S TRUE. FOUNDATION. MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. FOUNDATION. THE COURT: THANK YOU. MR. DARDEN: IS THERE AN EXTRA MICROPHONE FOR MR. COCHRAN, YOUR HONOR? THE COURT: I'M RELUCTANT TO PUT A MICROPHONE ON COUNSEL TABLE. MR. DARDEN: WELL, IF OBJECTIONS ARE BEING MADE AND THERE'S INTERRUPTIONS IN THE TESTIMONY, THE JURY OUGHT TO HEAR IT. AND GIVEN MR. COCHRAN'S PROPENSITY FOR MAKING SPEAKING OBJECTIONS WHICH HAVE A TENDENCY OF THEM BEING REPEATED BY THE WITNESS -- THE COURT: I'LL NOTE THAT. THANK YOU. I'LL NOTE THAT. PROCEED. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: DID ANYONE ELSE STAY IN THE SALINGER HOME DURING JUNE 12 THROUGH JUNE 16? A: NO, SIR. Q: DID YOU ALLOW ANYONE ENTRY INTO THE SALINGER HOME BETWEEN JUNE 12 AND JUNE 16? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND YOU HAD A TELEPHONE IN YOUR ROOM, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: YOU HAD YOUR OWN TELEPHONE NUMBER, CORRECT? A: NOT MINE. THE LADY'S. Q: OKAY. WELL, YOUR PHONE NUMBER WAS 472-09 -- MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. IS THAT THE SAME PHONE NUMBER, YOUR HONOR? IS THAT THE SAME PHONE NUMBER NOW, YOUR HONOR? PERHAPS WE SHOULD -- IF IT'S STILL THE SAME -- THE COURT: NO, I DON'T BELIEVE SO. MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WAS THAT THE PHONE NUMBER, 472-0900? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO REFLECT CAREFULLY, PLEASE. DO YOU RECALL CALLING THE SALINGER'S IN ENGLAND? A: I'VE TOLD YOU THAT I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: OKAY. SO WAS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT YOU DID NOT CALL THE SALINGER'S? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: OKAY. WELL, HAD YOU TELEPHONED THE SALINGER'S DURING THAT TIME PERIOD? A: I DON'T REMEMBER, SIR. Q: OKAY. WELL, YOU WOULD ONLY CALL THEM IN EUROPE IF THERE WAS SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO TELL THEM, CORRECT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND SO IF YOU CALLED THEM IN ENGLAND DURING THAT TIME PERIOD, YOU WOULD HAVE TOLD THEM THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO AND HEARD THE NOISES NEXT-DOOR; IS THAT CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SPECULATION. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: WELL, DO YOU CONSIDER THE FACT THAT YOU HEARD THESE VOICES AND SAW THE BRONCO IMPORTANT? A: YES, SIR. Q: OKAY. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MR. DARDEN: SO IF YOU FAILED TO TELL THAT INFORMATION OR GIVE THAT INFORMATION TO THE SALINGER'S, THAT WOULD MEAN THAT YOU DID NOT TELL THEM SOMETHING YOU CONSIDERED IMPORTANT, CORRECT? MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT'S ARGUMENTATIVE. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. MR. COCHRAN: IT'S ARGUMENTATIVE, SPECULATIVE, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED. I SAID SUSTAINED. MR. DARDEN: WELL, SHE JUST SAID SHE CONSIDERED THE INFORMATION IMPORTANT, YOUR HONOR. THE COURT: I KNOW. SHE DID. I AGREE, BUT THE WAY THE QUESTION IS STATED, IT'S ARGUMENTATIVE. Q: BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. WELL, DID YOU EVER TELL THE SALINGER'S THAT YOU SAW THE BRONCO PARKED ON ROCKINGHAM? A: OVER THE PHONE OR HOW? Q: WELL, HOW ABOUT OVER THE PHONE FIRST? A: NO, SIR. Q: OKAY. AND YOU DIDN'T TELL THEM THAT YOU |