SHARON RUFO,
Plaintiff,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON et al.
Defendant.
FREDRIC GOLDMAN, etc. et al., Case No. SC 031947
Plaintiffs, Case No. SC 036340
And
vs. Case No. SC 036876
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al.,
Defendants.
LOUIS H. BROWN, etc.
Plaintiffs
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, Defendant.
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of: MARCUS LAMARR ALLEN
DATE TAKEN: May 31, 1996
PLACE: THE McLEOD LAW FIRM
2890 City Center Square
1100 Main
Kansas City, MO 64105
ON BEHALF OF: Plaintiffs
REPORTER: Jennifer S. Allen
ALLEN REPORTING SERVICES
APPEARANCES
For the Plaintiff Rufo:
Mr. Michael A. Brewer, Esq.
HORNBERGER CRISWELL
444 South Flower Street 31st Floor
Los Angeles, CA 90048
For the Plaintiffs Goldman, et al.:
Mr. Daniel M. Petrocelli, Esq.
MITCHELL, SILBERBERG & KNUPP, L.L.P.
11377 West Olympic Boulevard
Los Angeles, CA 90064-1683
For the Plaintiffs Brown, etc.:
Mr. John Quinlan Kelly, Esq.
ATTORNEY AT LAW
330 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10017
For the Defendant:
Mr. Daniel Leonard, Esq.
BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER
2850 Ocean Park Boulevard Suite 300
Santa Monica, CA 90405
For the Witness:
Mr. Fred Bellemere, Esq.
Mr. Paul G. Schepers, Esq.
SEIGFREID, BINGHAM, LEVY, SELZER l. GEE
2800 Commerce Tower
911 Main
Kansas City, MO 64105
Video Technician:
Mr. John Cline
Tele-Business Communications
P.O. Box 20
Greenwood, MO 64034
It is hereby stipulated and agreed by the parties and the witness herein that presentment of the deposition to the witness is expressly waived.
I N D E X
Examination by Mr. Petrocelli:. .
Examination by Mr. Brewer. . . .
Examination by Mr. Kelly . . .
Examination by Mr. Leonard . . . .
Re-Examination by Mr. Petrocelli .
EXHIBITS
Marked
Allen Deposition Exhibit No. Police Interview State Form. . . . . . . . 92
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are on record. it is 9:40. It's May 31st, 1996. Would you please swear in the witness?
MARCUS LAMARR ALLEN, a witness, having been first duly sworn, testified upon his oath as follows:
MR. PETROCELLI: I think we should begin by having counsel state their appearance. My name is Daniel Petrocelli. I represent plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MR. BREWER: Michael Brewer for plaintiff Sharon Rufo.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly for the estate of Nicole Brown Simpson.
MR. LEONARD: Daniel Leonard for O.J. Simpson.
MR. SCHEPERS: Paul Schepers and Fred Bellemere appearing for Marcus Allen.
EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Allen. You understand that you are under oath?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And you understand that you have to tell the truth just as though you were testifying in a court of law before a judge and a jury?
A. Yes, I do.
Q.You may have to speak up a little bit the folks at the end of the table can hear you. Have you done anything to get ready for this morning's deposition?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. Have you read anything?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. Have you spoken to anyone other than your counsel?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. Have you read any of the deposition transcripts or other materials in this civil lawsuit against O.J. Simpson?
A. No.
Q. Have you had any contact with any of Mr. Simpson's lawyers since Mr. Simpson's acquittal?
A. No.
Q. Mr. Leonard is here for Mr. Simpson. Have you ever spoken to him before?
A. Just met him.
Q. Just met him today? And what about some of Mr. Simpson's other civil lawyers? Robert Baker?
A.(Witness shakes head).
Q. No. None of them?
MR. SCHEPERS: You have to give audible responses, please.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Yeah. You have to answer audibly.
A. I haven't talked to anyone
Q. Now, do you know whether your lawyers have spoken to Mr. Simpson's lawyers?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Have your lawyers told you about things Mr. Simpson's lawyers have said?
MR. SCHEPERS: I will object to that as clearly infringing upon attorney-client privilege. For the record, Mr. Petrocelli, I haven't spoken with any of Mr. Simpson's lawyers. You are the only one in this room to whom I have had any conversations with.
MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you, Counsel.
Q. (BY MR. PETROCELLI) Have you had any contact, Mr. Allen, with O.J. Simpson since his release from jail?
A: No, I haven't.
Q: You have not spoken to him on the telephone?
A: No.
Q: Or seen him in person?
A: No.
Q. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: What contact, if any, did you have with Mr. Simpson during the time that he was incarcerated from around June 17, 1994, through October, 1995?
A. Just the one visit and a couple of phone calls.
Q. And you visited him in the jail cell one time?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you remember when that was?
A. Frankly, no.
Q. Was it shortly after his arrest?
A. I think so.
Q. And you spoke to him there?
A. Yes.
Q. For how long?
A. I don't know how long we were there. Twenty minutes or so. Maybe longer. I am not sure.
Q. Was anyone there with you?
A. I think he had a representative. I am not sure. A young lady. And my wife was with me.
Q. And your wife is whom?
A. Kathryn Allen.
Q. Kathryn Allen. Do you have any children?
A. No, I don't.
Q. You reside where?
A. Here in Kansas City, Missouri.
Q. And do you also have a residence in Los Angeles?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And does anyone live there now?
A: You know, occasionally we go back.
Q: So, you haven't rented it out, correct?
A: No, I haven't.
Q: Is that in the Palisades?
A: Yes, it is.
Q: And how long have you maintained that residence in the Palisades?
MR. SCHEPERS: Mr. Petrocelli, you are using the term "residence". Just so it's understood that there's a house there. I don't want to suggest there's any legal connotation of where he resides. I think his testimony is he is a resident of Kansas City, Missouri. But that's just for clarification. I am sorry.
A: I am not sure. '92, I guess. '90 --
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) You bought the home in the Palisades?
A: I built it. See, that's why I am not sure, you know, when it was completed and when it was--when I moved in there.
Q: When was the last time that you regularly lived in that home?
A: I think it was in '93 or '92. Whenever I signed with the Kansas City Chiefs, then I became a resident there.
Q. Following the Super Bowl in 1994, January, did you reside in the home in the Palisades in Los Angeles between, let's say, January 1994, and June 12 of 1994?
A. Yes.
Q: And you, went on a vacation to the Cayman Islands on the evening of June 12th, correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you returned when?
A: I am not sure.
Q: A couple of weeks later?
A: I don't know. Eight or nine days afterwards. I am not sure.
Q: And when you returned from the trip to the Caymans, did you go back to the Palisades?
A: Yes.
Q: And how long did you stay there before you left for Kansas City?
A: I am not sure. Obviously I had to go back because of training camp. So, I am not quite sure when that was either. I don't have specific dates, but I always go back early, you know, and I start training, and we had training camp. So --
Q: When you visited Mr. Simpson in the jail cell, was it during the time that you were still living at the Palisades home before you left for training camp?
A: Yes
Q: And after you left for training camp in the summer of 1994, did you ever return to the Palisades home?
A: No.
Q: So, you haven't lived there at all since some time in the early summer of 1994; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Can you relate your discussion with O.J. Simpson in the jail cell?
A: It was just a general discussion about, you know, hanging there, just giving him support, just to see how he was doing. That was basically it.
Q: Is there ant topic that you can recall that you and he discussed?
A: No. At the close we just said a prayer, and that was it.
Q: Did you talk about Mr. Simpson's relationship with Nicole?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Did you talk about Nicole at all?
A: No, we didn't.
Q: Did you talk about any of the evidence?
MR. SCHEPERS: It's not a twister, Dan
MR. PETROCELLI: For the record, that's good old Kansas City thunder.
A: No, we didn't.
MR PETROCELLI: I am sorry. Could you read my question back? (Whereupon, the question was read back by the Reporter.)
A: No, we didn't.
Q: Did you discuss Mr. Simpson's whereabouts on the evening of June 12th?
A: Did not.
Q: Did you discuss any of the facts or circumstances relevant to the double murder charges against him?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: You said you had a couple of telephone calls with Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: I take it he called you?
A: Yes.
Q: Called you collect a couple of times?
A: Yes.
Q: While you were in Kansas City?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Compound.
A: I don't know. I mean, that's ---
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) how many of them --
A: -- been a couple of years ago.
Q: And how many of them were there?
A: There were a couple. I can't recall.
Q: When you say a couple, you mean two or three or 10 or 12? What is the range here?
A: I am not really sure
Q: Under 10?
A: I think so. Well under 10.
Q: In those conversations did you ever talk about his relationship with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk about Nicole at all?
A: No, we did not.
Q: Did you talk about the evidence against him?
A: No, we did not.
Q: Or the facts or circumstances relevant to the case against him?
A: No, we did not.
Q: All of your discussions with Mr. Simpson, I take it, were just general expressions of support for him?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you had conversations with anyone about whether or not you will testify at the trial in this case, in this civil trial?
A: No, I haven't. No.
MR. SCHEPERS: Are you talking about anyone other than his attorneys?
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) Yeah. Other than your lawyers.
A: No, I haven't.
Q: Do you intend to testify at the trial of this case if called as a witness by the defense?
MR. SCHEPERS: Under what circumstances?
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) If the defense calls you up and says, Mr. Allen, we would like you to come to Los Angeles to testify live as a witness on behalf of O.J. Simpson, do you intend to do so?
MR. SCHEPERS: I object upon the grounds that that would call for speculation about something that might happen in the future.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) You may answer.
A. I may answer?
MR. SCHEPERS: Yes.
A. Well, clearly I hope this will be enough.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) If the defense asks you to testify even though you have already given a deposition, do you plan to comply with their request and come to Los Angeles?
MR. SCHEPERS: Again calls for speculation.
You can say if you know.
A: I am not sure. I mean , clearly I hope this will put an end to -- you know, I feel like I am a really insignificant part of this whole thing and I really don't have anything to offer. So, its sort of difficult for me to say, you know, why I should come and do that.
Q: (by Mr. Petrocelli) How long have you known O.J. Simpson?
A: Since '70 -- well, I think I met him in '78.
Q: At that time you were entering USC?
A: Yes.
Q: You met him in New York at a Heisman Trophy or some--
A: Yes.
Q: What kind of function was it?
A: it was a Hertz No. 1 award. Q: Hertz.
A: He was--
Q: And since that time, you became good friends, correct?
A: Yes, we developed a friendship.
Q: And you remained very close friends up until the present, right?
A: Yes
Q: And as of June 12, 1994. O.J. Simpson was one of your closest friends, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you and he did many things together over the years, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you and he shared many of the same friends, right?
A. Yes.
Q. For example, you are friendly with A.C. Cowlings, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. First of all, let me see if I understand this. Has your relationship with Mr. Simpson changed since June 12, 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. And how has it changed?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
(By Mr. Petrocelli) You may answer.
A. Well, I think -- I think obviously he was disappointed.
(Off the record.)
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Okay.
We are going be record at 10:56.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Okay. We are back on the record and before the interruption you corrected me and pointed out that A.C. Cowlings is actually redundant. His name is Allen Cowlings, right?
A: Right.
Q. And A.C. is a nickname?
A. For Al Cowlings.
Q -- for Al Cowlings.
A. Yes.
Q: Okay. What I was asking you about were common friends that you and Mr. Simpson shared, and I think I would like to focus the time period for now as of June 12, 1994, which, as you know, was the day that Nicole was killed, okay?
A: Yes
Q: As of that point in time, you were close friends with Mr. Cowlings, true?
A: Yes.
Q. And with Wayne Hughes?
A. Yes.
Q. Allen Schwartz?
A. Yes.
Q. Mark Packar?
A. Yes.
Q. Bobby Bender?
A. Yes.
Q. Joe Stellini?
A. Yes.
Q. Robert Kardashian?
A. Yes.
Q. Ron Shipp?
A. Yes.
Q. Mark Slotkin?
A. Yes.
Q. Allen Austin?
A. Yes.
Q. Joe Kolkowitz?
A. Yes.
Q. Skip Taft?
A. Yes.
Q. Louis Marx?
A. Yes.
Q. Tom McCollum?
A. Yes.
Q. And these were -- this was the circle of friends that you and Mr. Simpson were a part of, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And had been for a number of years, right?
A. Right.
Q. And you and Mr. Simpson over the years did things as couples with -- him with Nicole and you with your wife, right?
A. Yes.
Q: And before you were -- when you meet and begin to date Kathryn?
A: '88
Q: And before 1988, you and Mr. Simpson went out with -- him with Nicole and you with someone else, right?
A: Sometimes just the three of us.
Q: And you socialized with Mr. Simpson's family as well?
A: Yes.
Q: And you have gotten to know his daughter Arnelle?
A: Yes.
MR. KELLY: Excuse me. Can you speak up just a bit, Marcus?
MR SCHEPERS: Mr. Kelly is having difficulty -- it's your fault, Kelly. You had him turn on the air-conditioner.
(Discussion was held off the record)
Video technician: We are back on record. it is 10:01.
(By Mr. Petrocelli): I was asking you before the latest interruption, Mr. Allen, about your socializing with Mr. Simpson over the years prior to Nicole's death on June 12. You had indicated that you met your wife Kathryn in around 1988?
A: Yes
Q. Before then, was there another person in your life who you were seeing for a long period of time?
A. No, there wasn't.
Q. You had not been engaged or married before Kathryn?
A. No.
Q. You got to know Mr. Simpson's family, I was asking you?
A. Yes.
Q. You know his daughter Arnelle, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. His daughter Jason -
A. His son Jason.
Q. I mean son Jason?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you been in touch with either Arnelle or Jason since Mr. Simpson's arrest?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. And did you know Mr. Simpson's two children with Nicole, Sidney and Justin?
A. Yes.
Q. And have you had any contact with them since Mr. Simpson's arrest?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. Or with members of the Brown family?
A. No, I haven't.
MR. SCHEPERS: Excuse me. (Discussion was held between the witness and his attorney off the record.)
A. Oh, yeah. I am sorry. I apologize. Just the one call to Judy Brown to give my condolences. I was - but I am not sure whether that was -- may have been after the funeral. I don't know.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) You were an usher at Mr. Simpson's wedding?
A: Yes.
Q: His marriage to Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: In 1985?
A: Yes, whenever.
Q; (By Mr. Petrocelli): You were an usher at Mr. Simpson's wedding?
A: Yes.
Q: His marriage to Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: In 1985?
A: Yes. Whenever.
Q: Now, you have indicated to me that your relationship with Mr. Simpson is different now than it was for all these years, true?
A: Yes, it is.
Q: And it changed when?
A: Well, the -- I think one phone call I think he wanted me to write a letter in opposition to an article that I think Time magazine had written, and I didn't do that. And I think secondly he also wanted me to testify to a conversation that we allegedly had -- well, excuse me, a conversation that we had in reference to my admitting to him or something of that -- you know, the fact about a relationship with his ex-wife, and the conversation, it wasn't true. The relationship didn't happen. And, so, I think he got upset with me, and obviously I felt -- really -- I felt really sort of -- I was in a tough position, and I think thereby the conversation never took place again. I am sure he was disappointed, and I was sort of disappointed too, that I couldn't help him as a friend, but I couldn't go there and say these things because they didn't take place.
Q: Is that the last time you spoke to Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: And is that one of the telephone conversations that you had with Mr. Simpson while he was in jail?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were here in Kansas City?
A; Yes
Q: Did your discussion about writing an article in response to the Time magazine piece take place in the same conversation about your testifying.
A: No, it didn't.
Q: And which one occurred first?
A:I think the article.
Q: Can you tell me about the article that Mr. Simpson wanted you to write in opposition to ?
A: Frankly, I didn't read the article. I just -- from what I understand, they just really colored him he felt like, I guess, in a really negative way.
Q: Let me stop you right there for a moment. Everything you know about the article is based on what Mr. Simpson told you the articles reported?
A: Yes.
Q: In other words, you didn't -- you didn't go out and independently read the article, right?
A: No, I didn't.
Q; And you hadn't read the article as of the time of the conversation with Mr. Simpson, right?
A: Right.
Q: Okay, so tell me what Mr. Simpson told you about the article as best as you can recall?
A: It just said some negative things about him, and he wanted me obviously to contradict those things and they didn't take place. So, I think he was sort of disappointed and angered about that.
Q: What negative things did Mr. Simpson tell you the article said about him that he wanted you to contradict?
A: I can't remember honestly.
Q. Generally speaking, what negative things had Mr. Simpson discussed with you?
A. I can't remember. I just remember the conversation, but I can't remember details or anything in general.
Q. Did it concern his relationship with Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
MR. SCHEPERS: It's also asked and answered, : think.
(By Mr. Petrocelli) You may answer.
A: I don't remember.
Q. In other words, did he say that the article said negative things about -- about his treatment of Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
MR. SCHEPERS: Asked and answered.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) You may answer.
A. I didn't read the article, and he didn't -- excuse me. I don't remember what he had said. Remember, that's a couple of years ago, and I don't remember everything that has taken -- you know, that was said and has taken place.
Q. Just so we are on the same wavelength, I realize. that you may not recall certain things, and if you recall anything, I'd like you to tell me. I appreciate that you won't have a complete recollection about things.
A. That's fair.
Q. Okay. But whatever it is that is in your mind and that you can recall that is responsive to my questions, tell me, because that's the best you can do.
A. Right.
Q. And I understand that. I don't want you to think, however, because you can't give me, you know, verbatim what was said that you shouldn't -
A. Right.
Q. -- you shouldn't testify. Just so we understand that.
A. I am trying to do the best I can, but I can't remember the details of that or even -- you know, I just remember about the article, and he wanted me to write a letter that, you know, would contradict some negative things, and I can't remember those things, though.
Q. Previously I thought you said that one of the reasons why you couldn't write the article that he requested was also because some of the things he wanted you to say were not true?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Misstates his testimony. Leading.
(By Mr. Petrocelli) Is that what occurred also?
MR. SCHEPERS: I agree. That mischaracterizes his testimony.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did he ask you to write anything that in your view you could not write because it was not true?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) In other words, did he want you to write something in response to the Time magazine article that you in good conscience could not write because you did not think it happened that way?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Arguing with him.
A. I didn't read the article. So, I didn't -
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Simply based on your conversation with him.
MR. LEONARD: Same objection. It's leading, argumentative.
A. Once again, I didn't read the article, and I don't remember what he had articulated on the phone. So, you must understand once I decided not to do it, I really sort of didn't give it much thought afterwards.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Do you remember any of the things that he wanted you to say in the piece he asked you to write?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Mischaracterizes his testimony. Argumentative. Leading.
MR. SCHEPERS: Objection. Asked and answered.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) You may answer.
A. I thought I already answered, if he said it was asked and answered.
Q. Let's clarify something about objections, too. There isn't any judge here. At some point later on when we get to trial, a judge will rule on these objections, but right now, even though there are legal objections made by the lawyers, you still have to answer the question as though the objection were never made unless your lawyer tells you not to answer.
A. Okay.
MR. SCHEPERS: You have asked this question several times, Dan. That's all. I just wanted to bring up that point and hope that you'll be moving on soon.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, in my view, those are not meritorious objections. So, I am just going to have to continue the examination and a judge will have to deal with that issue.
MR. SCHEPERS: I understand. And there will come a point perhaps when it become overly burdensome or harassing. I am not saying we are there yet, but that's what I will be on the lookout for.
MR. PETROCELLI: Can you read the last question, please?
(Whereupon, the pending question was read back by the Reporter as follows:)
QUESTION: "Do you remember any of the things that he wanted you to say in the piece he asked you to write?"
MR. LEONARD: Same objections.
A. No, I don't.
(By Mr. Petrocelli) As you sit here today, you cannot recall a single thing that he mentioned to you about the Time magazine article; is that true? A. That's true.
Q. And you cannot recall a single thing that he wanted you to write in response to the article?
MR. LEONMD: Objection. Argumentative. Leading.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) True?
A. That's true.
Q: You testified that there was a second conversation with Mr. Simpson in which he asked you to -- whether you would be willing to come testify on his behalf at the criminal trial.
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And you told him that you would not do so, correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And the reason you told him you would not do so was because what he wanted you to say was not true, correct?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative. Leading.
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) Correct?
A: True.
Q: And tell me what Mr. Simpson told you that he wanted you to say at the trial that you could not say because it was true, correct?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And the reason you told him you would not do so was because what he wanted you to say was not true, correct?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative. Leading.
Q. ( By Mr. Petrocelli): Correct?
A: True.
Q: And tell me what Mr. Simpson told you that he wanted you to say at the trial that you could not say because it was not true?
A: That Nicole and I had had an affair, and that he knew about it, and that he didn't get upset. First of all, we didn't have an affair, so I could not --
Q: But before you get to that part of it, I want you to complete your answer unless you had already completed it.
A: I had completed it.
Q: You said that Mr. Simpson wanted you to say that Nicole and you had had an affair, right?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative. Misstates his testimony. Leading.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Correct?
A: That's what I said.
Q. And that he, Mr. Simpson, knew about it, correct?
A. Yes.
Q: And that he was not upset, correct?
MR. LEONARD: Same objections
A: Correct
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) And that's when you stopped. Was there anything more he wanted you to testify about?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Argumentative.
A: No, there wasn't.
MR SCHEPERS: You have to wait until he finishes his objection.
A: I am sorry, I realize that now.
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did Mr. Simpson say to you in this conversation anything about when this affair took place?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading
A: Excuse me. I am sorry. No, he did not.
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) When Mr. Simpson mentioned this alleged affair to you, did you have any idea what he was talking about?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading
A: No, I was sort of surprised.
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) Was this conversation about an affair between Nicole and you that you had with Mr. Simpson from the jail cell the very first time in your life that you had ever spoken to him about an affair between you and Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading
A: No, it wasn't.
Q: (Mr. Petrocelli) So, there had been a prior occasion when this subject came up, right?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was prior to Nicole's death?
A: Yes, it was.
Q: Do you recall the date of that conversation?
A: No, I don't recall.
Q: Do you recall the timing of it, generally?
A: I don't know. Maybe May of -- I think I was in my tour, my -- I was a free agent at the time, and I was traveling around trying to decide who I was going to play for, and I don't remember specifically, but I was in New York, and I got -- I was visiting Mark Packar, and I received -- well, he received a call.
Q: Mr. Packer?
A: Yes. And they had a conversation and then he gave me the phone, and I said hello, and he says, "Nicole told me everything." You know, "Just" -- you know "Just don't say anything." And I was sort of surprised and I gave Packar back the phone, and I think on my -- upon return I may have went to his house to find out what exactly, you know, he was talking about transpired, and I said, 'I am sorry. Nothing happened.' And that's the two times that we had those discussions and didn't have any after that.
Q: This conversation that you just recounted -- actually, you just recounted two prior conversations.
A: Yes.
Q: One while you were at Mark Packar's house in New York, right?
A: Yes
Q: And the second conversation when you saw Mr. Simpson at Rockingham?
A: Yes. I went to his home in Rockingham.
Q: Right. Focusing first in the conversation when you were in Packar's home.
A: Yes. It was a very short conversation, and as I said before, he just said, "Nicole told me everything. Just keep it between you and me." And I --
Q: Is that all he said?
A: That was it.
Q: Did he say anything more to you to indicate what he was talking about was an affair or a sexual relationship between you and Nicole?
A: No, he did not.
Q: did Mr. Simpson in that conversation say to you in words or in substance the following: "Marcus, do me a favor and ease up on Nicole?
A: No, he did not. I don't remember that.
Q; Did Mr. Simpson say to you in that telephone conversation, "Because whatever is happening with you guys is really screwing her up. She is going like bonkers."
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did Mr. Simpson say that to you in that conversation?
A: No, he did not.
Q: Now, did the conversation that followed in Rockingham occur about one week later, Mr. Allen?
A: Probably, yeah.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson tell you in that conversation to back off?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading
Q: No, he did not.
A: (By Mr. Petrocelli) Was Mr. Simpson taking a nap when you arrived at his home?
Q: Yes, I think he was.
Q: Did you walk into his bedroom while he was sleeping? Or napping?
A. I think he was up. I don't think he was napping.
Q. Did the conversation take place in Mr. Simpson's bedroom --
A. Yes.
Q: -- in Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: Was this during a time when Nicole was no longer living there, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you apologize to Mr. Simpson in this conversation?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague and leading.
A: Yes. I said, "I am sorry. Nothing happened.
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you apologize to Mr. Simpson for having had an affair with Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No, I did not.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you -- in either of these two conversations, the phone conversation at Packar's house and the bedroom conversation at Rockingham, did you acknowledge to Mr. Simpson that you had had an affair with Nicole?
A. No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No, I did not.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you explain to Mr. Simpson anything by which he might have misconstrued that you were having an affair with Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague and leading.
A. No. I said, "No, nothing happened."
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you and he discuss in either of these two conversations that you had been visiting Nicole?
A: I don't remember that.
Q: Or spending any time with her.
A: No. I don't think so.
Q: Or going out with her?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
A. No.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Anything like that come up?
A. No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague, leading.
A. No.
MR. KELLY: I just want him to wait until the objection is completed before the answer comes out.
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) Please.
A. I don't realize he is objecting all the time. I trying -- you know, he comes right in.
MR. KELLY: Mr. Leonard, would you stop objecting?
MR. LEONARD: I don't think so.
A. I will pause.
MR. LEONARD: That would be a good idea if you would just pause a little bit.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you ever discuss this conversation or these two conversations that you had with Mr. Simpson when he was in jail the one time you visited him?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A: Yes. That's the one that I - I said -
MR. SCHEPERS: I think he is talking about an actual visit.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) I am sorry. When you personally visited him in jail as opposed to the phone calls.
A. No. I am sorry. No.
Q. It didn't come up in the jail visit, right?
A. No, it did not.
Q. And after you had these two conversations with Mr. Simpson, did you ever speak with him again on that subject at any time up until this telephone call?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Now, did you have a conversation with Mr. Cowlings at Wayne Hughes' home about a week or two after Nicole's death?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And in that conversation, did Mr. Cowlings bring up the subject of your having had an affair with Nicole?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And did he tell you that -- that the reason he was bringing it up was because he wanted you to be able to tell your wife before she heard about in the press?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A: Yes .
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) And what did you say to Mr. Cowlings when he said that to you?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Leading
A. I don't remember saying anything to A.C.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you acknowledge having had an affair with Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
A. No, I did not.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you deny having had an affair with Nicole?
MR. KELLY: I am sorry, Dan. Once again, we are getting the answers and objections at the same time. I want to make sure the record is clear. so, somebody has got to rein it in.
MR. LEONARD: If you could pause after the question, it would be very helpful.
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you deny having had an affair with Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. I don't remember saying anything to A.C.
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) To the best of your recollection, what did A.C. say to you?
A: It was sort of I guess exactly what you had said.
Q. Did Mr. Cowlings say to you in this conversation at Wayne Hughes' home that he knew about your sexual relationship with Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A: No, he did not.
Q: (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did he tell you that there was a strong possibility that Nicole's friends knew about the relationship?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No, he did not.
MR. PETROCELLI: I'll talk to you about that later. I don't have any more questions about that now any way. Okay.
Q. Have you had any other conversations with Mr. Cowlings after that one concerning the same subject?
A: No.
Q: Have you at any time spoken to anyone else about this subject? And by this subject, I mean this alleged affair between Nicole and you.
A: Not that I recall.
Q: You have spoken to Mr. Simpson about it, as you have already testified?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have spoken to Mr. Cowlings about it on that one occasion?
MR. SCHEPERS: I believe that mischaracterizes his testimony. He didn't say anything.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Well, he spoke to you about it?
A. Yes.
Q. What I mean is a conversation in which you were either speaking to someone in person or by phone in which the topic came up. That's what I am referring to. Okay? And the only times you are saying this topic ever came up in a conversation in which you are a participant was the ones that you described already with Mr. Simpson?
A. I think so. To the best of my ability, I think that's the only two calls that I -- the only two times that I talked about that.
Q. And the one time with Mr. Cowlings?
A. Yes.
Q. And nobody else?
A. To the best of my ability, I think, no one else.
Q. Did you ever discuss this topic with any of Mr. Simpson's and your mutual friends?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Such as Mr. Hughes7
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. I don't think so. I can't recall.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) I would like to see if I can pin down a little bit the timing of your conversations with Mr. Simpson before Nicole's death concerning this alleged affair between Nicole and you, the conversation at the Packar residence and then at Mr. Simpson's residence. Okay? You said this was at a time when you were looking for employment?
A. Yes. I think it was in '93.
Q. '93?
A. Yes.
Q. May of '93 would be the best of your recollection?
A. I think so. I think that's when I started taking my trips. I am not sure, but I think it was definitely May because I decided to play for the Chiefs, and that was my first year. So --
Q. Now, let's go back to your telephone call with Mr. Simpson when he asked you to testify for him. You told Mr. Simpson that is was untrue that you and Nicole had had an affair?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. I told him nothing happened.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Now, we are back to the telephone call now when he was in jail and you were in Kansas City and he asked you to testify, just so you will understand the point of reference here.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Do you understand that?
A. No. Would you repeat that again, please?
Q. I am now going to return to the telephone call that you had with Mr. Simpson when he called you while he was in jail and you were in Kansas City and he asked you to testify about this affair with Nicole.
A. Right.
Q. And you told -- you previously testified that Mr. Simpson had asked you to say under oath in court --
A. Yes.
Q. -- that he and -- that you and Nicole had had an affair, and that he knew about it, and that he was not upset?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Argumentative.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Do you recall that?
A. I do recall that, and I --
Q. What did he tell him in that conversation after he said that to you?
MR. SCHEPERS: Objection. Asked and answered.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) You may answer.
A. That it didn't happen I think is what I said.
Q. In the telephone conversation?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. What did he say?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
A. I think he got -- I think he wee a little bit upset, and I can't remember exactly what he said after that, but it was -- you could tell that he was a little bit angry, disappointed. And, you know, frankly I don't know what she told him, but that was not the case.
MR. LEONARD: I am going to move to strike as non-responsive.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Can you tell me generally what he said to you in response to your statement that it never happened?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Leading.
A. No, I can't. I can't generally say what he exactly said.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did he tell you why he believed that it happened?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No, he did not.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did he tell you how he knew it had happened?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No, sir, he didn't.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did he accuse you of just trying to protect your own interests at his expense?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Or in substance did he accuse you of that?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Argumentative.
A. No, I don't.
Q. ( By Mr. Petrocelli) Did he remind you of the telephone conversations you had had the year before -- excuse me. Did he remind you of the two conversations that you had had the year before?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. I don't think he did. I am not sure.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did he say, for example, don't you remember, we spoke about it last year at Packar's, and then you came back to my house and you apologized and you acknowledged it, did he say anything like that to you in this conversation?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Compound. Lack of foundation.
A. He may have. I frankly can't remember though.
MR. LEONARD: Move to strike.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Have you made any notes of that conversation?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. And did you tell anyone about that conversation after it occurred?
A. I don't think I did, no. I can't remember if I did.
Q. Did you speak to any of Mr. Simpson's lawyers during the criminal trial? At any time after his arrest, were you contacted by any of Mr. Simpson's lawyers or representatives?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Compound.
A. I think twice. One I think was early in his incarceration. I think he just got a group of his friends together, of his supporters, and they had a phone call, and much like the surrounding we have here, it was a speaker phone, and he called collect and we all just lended our support, and we had something -- you know, something positive to say to him, hang in there and so on, and the second one was, I think, with Mr. -- Mr. Cochran, and I think that conversation was basically that I couldn't, I think, write the letter or -- I think that was it. I am not sure.
MR. LEONARD: I am going to move to strike as non-responsive and speculative.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Mr. Cochran called you or you called him?
A. I am not sure. I am not sure how that happened.
Q. Was it a telephone call?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Were you in Kansas City at that time?
A. Yes. So, maybe I called him. I am not sure. I don't know.
Q. And did -- withdrawn. Mr. Cochran --
A. Maybe it was a return call. I am not sure. I can't remember.
Q. Mr. Cochran asked you if you would write an article in opposition of the Time magazine article?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Mischaracterizes his testimony. Leading. Argumentative.
A. I think so. I am not sure, sir.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did this call occur after the one with Mr. Simpson when he had first broached the subject with you?
A. I think so.
Q. And what did you tell Mr. Cochran?
A. The same thing that I told Mr. Simpson.
Q. And what was that?
A. That I don't think I can do that.
Q. And did you give a reason why?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. What was the reason why you couldn't do it?
A. Frankly, I just -- you know, I sort of regret not being more of a staunch supporter, but it was such a circus that I just didn't want to get involved in it, to be honest with you.
Q. And did it have anything to do with the fact that some of the things that they wanted you to say were not true?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Argumentative. Lack of foundation.
MR. SCHEPERS: Are you talking about the conversation with --
A. I told you about the article. I don't remember about that, yeah. That conversation.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) But we are now talking about the Cochran call, and I am asking whether in the context of this Cochran call one of your mental thoughts or processes was that you were not going to write this letter because some of the stuff that he -- they wanted you to say was not true?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Compound. Leading. Argumentative. Lack of foundation.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) You may answer.
A. Once again, I don't remember generally what they -- what the article said or what they wanted me to write.
Q. So, the only reason that you can recall right now why you did not agree to write anything was because you did not want to get involved; is that true?
A. The way things were going, right.
Q. Is that the only time you spoke to Mr. Cochran?
A. I think so.
Q. Now, the other incident in which you spoke with Mr. Simpson's lawyers was at a meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. That was at Mr. Shapiro's office?
A. I assume it was his office, yes.
Q. It was in Century City?
A. Century City. Yes.
Q. And that was shortly after Mr. Simpson's arrest?
A. Yes.
Q. Before you had left for Kansas City, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And there were a lot of his friends and supporters around the table?
A. Yes .
Q. And he called in from the jail cell and he was on the speaker phone?
A. Yes .
Q. And the purpose of that meeting was to --
A. I don't know.
Q. -- enlist people's support?
A. Yes. I think so.
Q. And Mr. Shapiro told everyone at the meeting not to talk to anyone?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. foundation. Leading. Lack of foundation.
A. I can't remember. I remember he did say that we were just assembling the best guys that we can, and we are going to do -- you know, we really feel confident, we are going to do what we can to free him. That's -- and once again, everybody sort of said something, took their turn going around the table showing signs of support.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) You were there with your wife Kathryn?
A. Yes .
Q. Do you remember the other people who were there?
A. Not everyone.
Q. Tell me who you can remember.
A. I remember Mr. Hughes being there.
Q. Mr. Hughes?
A. Mr. Hughes. Schwartz. I think Mr. Austin. I can't remember the other people.
Q. Who invited you to the meeting?
A. I am not sure. I don't know how -- who contacted us.
Q. Are those the only times when you had any contact with Mr. Simpson's lawyers or representatives following his arrest?
A. Yes. I think so.
Q. And have any of the lawyers who represented him in the criminal trial contacted you since his release from jail?
A. No, they haven't.
MR. SCHEPERS: Is this a good time to take a quick break?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. This is a good time.
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: please stand by. Going off the record. It is 11:38.
(Recess.)
VIDEO TECHNIC1AN: We are back on the record. It is 10:44. I would like to make a correction. I said when we went off record, and it was 10. Please continue.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Mr. Allen, prior to Nicole's death on June 12, you had come to become friends with some of her friends?
A. I wouldn't say friends.
Q. For example, Cora Fischman.
A. Yes.
Q. Focusing on the time period prior to June 12th for these series of questions, were you friends with Cora Fischman?
A. I wouldn't say friends.
Q. Acquaintances?
A. I mean acquaintances, yes.
Q. And with Faye Resnick?
A. I would say acquaintances.
Q. CiCi Shahian?
A. Frankly, I really don't remember her.
Q. Chris Jenner?
A. I had known Chris for awhile, yes.
Q. You would call her a friend?
A. Yes.
Q. Pam Schwartz?
A. Yes.
Q. And Robin Greer?
A. Yes. I associated basically.
Q. Now, Mr. Simpson and Nicole got divorced some time in January of '92. You are aware of that, right?
A. I guess. I am not sure when.
Q. You are not sure of the time frame?
A. Yes.
Q. But you know they got divorced, right?
A. Yes. I am.
Q. And after Mr. Simpson and Nicole's divorce, did you ever socialize with Nicole without Mr. Simpson being present?
A. Not immediately, no.
Q. Did there come a time when you did?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. I am not sure. I mean --
Q. Was it while Nicole was living at the Gretna Green condominium?
A. Yes.
Q. And how often did you socialize with her during the time she lived at Gretna Green?
A. I went by on occasion. There were people present, though. Q. Were you ever with Nicole alone?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. I may have been, yes.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did the two of you ever go out on a date?
A. No, we hadn't.
Q. When you were with her alone, you were -- what were the circumstances?
MR. LEONARD: I object.
A. I just stopped by and saw -- I am sorry.
MR. LEONARD: Go ahead.
A. -- and saying hello. That was about it.
(By Mr. Petrocelli) You just -- is it fair to say you continued your friendship with her even though she was split up with O.J. Simpson, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you would go visit her from time to time, right?
A. Yes. On occasion, yes.
Q. In 1992 and in 1993 where were you -- you were living in the Palisades home for part of that, and before the Palisades home, where were you residing?
A. Montana residence.
Q. Did Nicole ever visit you at your home in those years after she split up with Mr. Simpson?
A. Yes. She stopped by, and I loaned her my car, and she dropped it off, and I took her back home.
Q. That's the only time she ever stopped by?
A. Yes.
Q. Which place was that?
A. The Palisades residence. Let me back up. Nicole also decorated my condominium on Montana, and that was in, I guess, early '82. So, I used to go over there to the design center and then did -- you know, did some work with her -- or she worked for me.
Q. You owned that condominium on Montana? .
A. Yes.
Q. Is that in Brentwood?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you still own it?
A. Renting it out.
Q. And Nicole helped you decorate it 1992, right?
A. 1982.
Q. 1982.
A. Yes. I think that was it.
Q. At any time thereafter did she help you from time to time remodel it or redecorate it?
A. No, she didn't.
Q. So, for example, during the 1990s, did she do anything with regard to the decoration of that condominium?
A. No. She did not. No.
Q. What kind of a car did you own in 1993?
A. A black Mercedes.
Q. And what was the license plate?
MR. SCHEPERS: Can we have one of these things deleted, this answer deleted, his license plate number?
(By Mr. Petrocelli) Let me ask you this. Was it a personalized or stylized license plate?
A. No. Regular.
MR. SCHEPERS: Then I don't care.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Do you remember it?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Okay. What model Mercedes was it?
A. 560 SL.
Q. What year was it?
A. Excuse me. 560 S
Q. El?
A. No. SC -- No. I don't know what it is. The larger two-door.
Q. The larger two-door model.
A. Is it an SEC or something like that? Yeah.
MR. KELLY: The two-seater?
A. Yeah. The larger one.
MR. KELLY: The 260?
A. No. No. It's an '87. It's an older car. But what is it? SEC or something? 560 SEC?
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) I am not a Mercedes owner.
A. I think that's it.
Q. It's a two-seater?
A. No. It's a four-seater but a two-door.
Q. And that was a car that you had owned since 1987?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. And you still own it?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And that's the car that you primarily used in 1993?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you visited Nicole at Gretna Green you would use that car?
A. On occasion, yes.
Q. What other cars did you drive during 1993?
A. Testarosa Ferrari.
Q. What color?
A. Black.
Q: Does that have a personalized or stylized license plate?
A. No.
Q. Were those the only two cars that you drove in 1993?
A. Yes.
Q. In 1994, focusing on the time period from January through June 12th when Nicole died, did you ever visit her at the Bundy condominium?
A. Yes. When -- excuse me. When did they have the earthquake?
Q. January 17, 1994.
A. I think I saw her on the street, and she invited me over because I had never been to her place and stuff, her new place, and I think it was shortly after the earthquake -- I don't know exactly, but after that she mentioned she had some damage or something like that.
Q. Now, when you say you saw her on the street, what do you mean by that?
A. You know, she would jog, she would occasionally jog on San Vincente. I mean, everybody does.
Q. And how did you happen to see her? You were driving on San Vincente?
A. Yeah. That's one of the major arteries that everybody takes.
Q. And you saw her, then, on this occasion?
A. Yes.
Q. You then started talking to her and she would get in your car and you drove over to the Bundy condo?
A. Repeat that again, please?
Q. Did she get in your car at that point and the two of you drove over to Bundy?
A. No. No.
Q. What happened?
A. I am not quite sure. I just -- you know, I don't know how it happened. We just -- she invited me over there. I don't remember the circumstances. But she just said, come over some time, check out my new place. That's about it.
Q. Did you come over that day?
A. No. I don't think so.
Q. And when did you go over?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Did you go over there alone?
A. Yes.
Q. And was anyone there with Nicole besides -- was anyone with her besides her?
A. I think the maid and the kids. She had some lady cleaning her house or something like that.
Q. Just visited for awhile?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you left?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the only time you were ever at her Bundy condominium?
A. I had been over there on more than one occasion.
Q. What were the other occasions?
A. Just stopping by to say hello. That's basically it.
Q. When was the last time you visited Nicole at her Bundy condominium?
A. I don't know. I don't recall.
Q. How long before her death?
A. I am not sure. It wasn't anywhere close to it, though.
Q. Was it a matter of days?
A. No. I don't think so.
Q. Was it in the month of June?
A. No. I don't think so. I am not sure.
Q. Was it in the month of May, 1994?
A. Perhaps.
Q. Did you know when Nicole's birthday was?
Q. No. I mean, I think we had been together, you know, a group of us on her birthday. But do I remember her birthday specifically? No.
Q. Did you visit her for her birthday in May of 1994?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Did you give her a birthday present?
A. No.
Q. Was there a time when you visited her in May of 1994 when she was ill?
A. I don't recall.
Q. When she had pneumonia?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. What is your best recollection of the months when you visited Nicole in 1994 at her Bundy condominium after this first visit that you just described when you saw her jogging?
A. I don't have a great recollection of that. I mean, it's almost two years ago. I don't remember that.
Q. When was the last time you saw Nicole before her death?
A. I can't recall that either.
Q. Was it a matter of days, weeks or months?
A. Well, it certainly had to be, I think, weeks, I think.
Q. When was the last time you spoke with Nicole before her death? Same answer?
A. I think I called Nicole on the phone, and she -- I think it was a couple of days prior to the 12th, and she said she was busy or call back, and I don't think I ever called back.
Q. What day do you believe you called her? She died on Sunday evening, June 12th, if that helps you, the day that you left for the Caymans.
A. I think maybe Friday. I am not sure, though. I am not sure.
Q. Did she tell you what she was busy doing?
A. Something with the kids or something like that.
Q. Did she tell you about any plans she had to move?
A. No, she did not.
Q. At any time before her death in the last few months, did she mention that she was moving?
A. She said she was looking for a home or something like that. But --
Q. Can you tell me anything that you and she talked about in this telephone call other than what you have just said?
A. No. I told you she said that she was busy. Call her back.
Q. A very short conversation?
A. Very short.
Q. That's the last time you spoke to her?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now, you said the last time you saw her was a matter of weeks before her death. Where was that?
A. I think it was a matter of weeks.
Q. And where did that take place where you saw her?
A. I am not sure where, but I do remember seeing her.
Q. Was it at her Bundy condominium?
A. I don't -- I don't think so.
Q. Did you go out with her?
A. No. I may have seen her out.
Q. You may have seen her jogging, you mean?
A. I don't think it was jogging. I don't know if it was around the Brentwood/Westwood hole area or not.
Q. Between January -- January and June of 1994, up to June 12 when Nicole was killed, did you go out to anyplace with her, such as a restaurant or a nightclub?
A. I went out one night with a group of people to shoot pool with a group of people with them.
Q. Who was in that group?
A. The only other person I remember is Kato. I can't remember who else.
Q. Do you think that this occurred -- withdrawn. How long before Nicole's death do you believe this occurred?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Was Nicole living at Bundy at the time?
A. No. I think she was living at Gretna Green.
Q. You went out with Nicole and Kato to shoot pool? A. Yes.
Q. Was there anyone else with you, with the three of you, I should say?
A. I think there was a fourth but I am not sure who that person was.
Q. Was that other person a woman who was accompanying Mr. Kaelin?
A. I think it may have been a friend of Nicole's, but I am not quite sure who it was.
Q. Was she with Mr. Kaelin as a date?
A. There was no dating.
Q. Among the four of you?
A. It was just four friends going out.
Q. Where did you shoot pool?
A. A place called Gothic. I think, in Santa Monica.
Q. Is that the only time that you were ever out in a restaurant or a place with Nicole without Mr. Simpson?
A. Yes. My best recollection, yes.
Q. Only that one occasion?
A. Yes.
Q. Your lawyer just showed you a note.
MR. SCHEPERS: No. I was just trying to communicate to Mr. Allen to keep his answers responsive to the questions. That's all this says.
MR. PETROCELLI: I think he is doing a good job of that.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) When you visited Nicole at Gretna Green, where did you park your car?
A. Sometimes in front, sometimes on the side, depending on the parking.
Q. Did you ever make an effort to park your car in a place where it would not be visible to someone driving by who knew your car?
A. No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
A. No, I did not. I'd park it in front. It was based on availability. If it wasn't I would park it on the side.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Going back to the times that you saw Nicole in 1994, do you have any better recollection of where you and she were the last time you saw her which you though was a matter of weeks before her death?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you recall being with Nicole at anyplace other than her condominium between January and June of 1994? You also mentioned you saw her jogging that one time.
A. No, I don't.
Q. Did you ever have a romantic relationship with Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague. Leading.
A. No, I did not.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did Nicole and you, for example, ever kiss one another romantically?
A. No, I did not.
Q. So, no kind of sexual or romantic involvement did you ever have with her?
A. None whatsoever.
Q. Did she ever express to you romantic feelings that she had for you?
A. No, she did not.
Q. And did you ever express such feelings to her?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Your relationship with Nicole was purely one of friendship and nothing more?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. Yes, it was.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you make that clear to Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Vague.
MR. SCHEPERS: You can answer.
A. Yes. I think he understood that.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you make that clear to Mr. Simpson when you spoke to him from the Packar residence?
A. I didn't say anything at that particular time.
Q. Did you make that clear to Mr. Simpson when you spoke to him in his bedroom at Rockingham?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Leading, argumentative. Lack of foundation.
MR. SCHEPPERS: You can answer.
A. I think he understood that.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Based on what you said?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you make that clear to Mr. Simpson once again in this last telephone call that you and he had?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague, leading, argumentative, lack of foundation.
A. No, I did not.
MR. LEONARD: Calls for speculation.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) In other words, did you express to Mr. Simpson in no uncertain terms that you have never had a romantic relationship with Nicole.
A. Yes.
MR. LEOMARD: Objection. Leading.
A. Excuse me. I am sorry.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) You may answer.
MR. SCHEPERS: Answer again.
A. Yes.
MR. LEONARD: Same objections.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Now, you knew that -- withdrawn. Did you become aware that some time after Nicole and Mr. Simpson split up that they attempted a reconciliation?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you learn that from Mr. Simpson?
A. Yes.
Q. And also from Nicole?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever discuss with Nicole her getting back with Mr. Simpson?
A. Yes.
Q. What did she say to you about that?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
MR. SCHEPERS: As best you can recall.
A. That they were trying to get back together, and I sort of, you know, encouraged it.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did she tell you why they were trying to get back together?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No, she did not.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) And when did this occur?
A. I can't pinpoint a time, sir.
Q. Did you talk to Mr. Simpson about Nicole and he getting back together?
A. Just briefly. I can't remember when.
Q. What did Mr. Simpson say?
A. That they were just trying to get back together.
Q. And did he tell you why?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did he tell you whose idea it was?
A. No, he did not. I don't recall that.
Q. Did you speak to Mr. Simpson from time to time in the period of time in which he was attempting his reconciliation with Nicole?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he talk to you about her from time to time during that period?
A. No, he did not. We played golf together and so on.
Q. Did he tell you about any problems that they were having?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did you know about this incident in October of 1993 when Nicole and he fought resulting in a 911 call?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Compound. Leading.
MR. SCHEPERS: October, '93?
A. No, I did not. I didn't know about that.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Is the first time that you heard about that when it came out in the news and the trial occurred?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. Yes.
(By Mr. Petrocelli) So, Mr. Simpson never told you that that occurred; is that right?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) That is right? Mr. Simpson never told you --
A. He never told me. That's what I am saying.
Q. Okay. And no one else ever told you, true?
A. True.
Q. Did there come a time when you learned that this attempted reconciliation between Mr. Simpson and Nicole was over?
A. I had heard about it later, but, no, nobody informed me.
Q. You played golf with Mr. Simpson on June 7 at Riviera, right?
A. I guess.
MR. SCHEPERS: '94?
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) 1994.
A. I played golf with him quite a bit. I am not sure whether it was June 7th or not.
Q. The last time you played golf with Mr. Simpson was the week before Nicole's murder, correct?
A. I guess. I am not sure. I mean, I --
Q. Do you recall playing golf with Mr. Simpson, Allen Austin and Joe Kolkowitz at Riviera on June 7, 1994?
A. No, I don't, sir. I mean, I played golf with him several times. What I am saying is, I don't know that -- any specific date.
Q. Do you recall the last time you played golf with Mr. Simpson before Nicole's death?
A. It may have been at the Riviera. I am not sure. We played so often it's sort of hard for me to say when.
Q. Do you recall Mr. Simpson telling you at golf shortly before Nicole's death that it was over between Nicole and him?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. I don't remember him saying that.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) After you played golf with Mr. Simpson, you would typically have lunch at the club?
A. Occasionally.
Q. Do you recall Mr. Simpson telling you that at lunch?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) In the week before Nicole's death.
A. I don't remember him saying that.
Q. Did you have any knowledge or information prior to Nicole's death that she had ended her reconciliation attempt with Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
A. No, I didn't.
MR. LEONARD: Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation.
A. Sorry about that. No.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) As of June 12, 1994, you believed that they were still trying to work things out?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you come to learn at any time before June 12 that Nicole was planning to move back in to Rockingham?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
A. No.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Nicole was a close friend of yours as of the time that she was killed, right?
A. Yes.
Q. At any time during Mr. Simpson's relationship with Nicole, did you ever come to learn of any physical abuse of her at the hands of Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No. Other than the -- the obvious one that -- you know, that came out later.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) And what are you referring to, Mr. Allen?
A. The -- you know, the incident in, I don't know, '89 or something. I am not sure.
Q: And when did you become aware of the incident in 1989?
A. Later that evening. Or, excuse me. Early morning.
Q. And describe to me the circumstances of how you became aware of this incident.
A. The four of us went out to a New Year's Eve party.
Q. At Peter Locks?
A. Yes.
Q. And the four of you being whom?
A. O.J. and Nicole and Kathryn and myself. And we went out and had a wonderful time, and then we departed, and I think I received a call early in the morning.
Q. About what time?
A. I am not sure, sir. I am really not sure.
Q. Where were you living?
A. On Montana.
Q. Was Kathryn living with you at that time?
A. I think so.
Q. Continue.
A. Yes, she was. It was A.C. calling and trying to find the whereabouts of O.J., and then he had told me what happened. And that was it.
Q. Before that call from Mr. Cowlings, had you received a call from Nicole or Mr. Simpson?
A. No.
Q. Had Kathryn received the call from Mr. Simpson or Nicole, to your knowledge?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Call. for speculation. Lack of foundation.
A. I don't think so. I mean, we were together, and I don't think we received a call.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Until Mr. Cowling called?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did Mr. Cowlings tell you when he called?
A. He just said -- you know, he was excited and he said, "Where the hell is O.J.? He just got into an argument with Nicole and the police are up here," that sort of thing.
Q. When Mr. Cowlings called, you understood he was at Rockingham?
A. No. I didn't know where he was.
Q. He said the police are up here.
A. Yeah. Oh, I guess -- yeah. I guess so. I didn't know where he was at the time but when he said up here, I mean I really wasn't cognizant that early in the morning of what had transpired, but I do remember him calling and saying, you know, "Where is O.J.? He got into an argument and the police are up here." At that particular time I wasn't cognizant of what he said, I mean, completely understood. But --
Q. Mr. Cowlings appeared upset to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did he say, if anything, about what had transpired?
A. He didn't go into any details.
Q. Did he tell you that Nicole had been hit?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) You may answer.
A. He didn't go into any details. I mean, after he -- I said no I guess he, you know, maybe called somebody else to find out.
Q. Did he even tell you that Nicole had been hit?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) So, when you got off the phone with him, you had no clue that Nicole had been hit? Is that what you are saying?
A. Yes. Until -- until the following -- no. I didn't know until the following morning.
Q. Then what happened?
A. well, it sort of -- I think it was on the news or something like that. I am not sure.
Q. Did you see Mr. Simpson the following morning?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you go to Allen Schwartz's house that day?
A. May have. I am not sure, sir. That was '89. That was a long time ago.
Q. The Rose Bowl occurred on January 2 that year. By the way, Michigan won, Did you go to the Rose Bowl that year?
A. No. I don't think so.
Q. Okay. You didn't go with Mr. Simpson, in other words, right?
A. No.
Q. Did you see him at all for the couple of days following this incident?
A. I might have. I am not sure.
Q. Did you speak to him?
A. Like I said, I might -- I can't say that. I think I might have because I -- I am not sure whether I saw him or not.
Q. When you did speak to him, did you talk at all about what had happened that precipitated Mr. Cowlings' cal1 to you?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) You may answer.
A. I can't remember honestly.
Q. Did Mr. Simpson tell you about his fight with Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. I can't remember whether I saw him or not. Thereby, I can't remember whether I spoke to him.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) At any time did Mr. Simpson ever tell you about his fight with Nicole? I understand that you can't recall the first conversation. Now I am asking you to broaden the time period.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. You know, you are asking me something that happened a long time ago. And frankly, my -- you know, my memory is not as good as I would like everybody to believe it is.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Can you recall at any time Mr. Simpson telling you what had occurred in his fight with Nicole on January 1, 1989?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No.
MR. LEONARD: Lack of foundation.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did Mr. Simpson ever tell you that he had hit Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Lack of foundation.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did he ever tell you that?
MR. LEONARO: Objection. Leading. Lack of foundation. Argumentative.
A. He never told me he struck her.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did he tell you that he got into an altercation with her?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague and leading.
A. No. He never told me anything like that.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did he tell you that he was -- that the incident occurred because he was trying to defend himself or prevent Nicole from hitting him?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. He did not discuss everything with me.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) By that you mean there were certain things that Mr. Simpson did not share with you?
A. Yes.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Argumentative.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) He did not confide certain things that took place in his relationship with Nicole with you. Is that a fair statement?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation. Argumentative and leading.
A. I am trying to let him finish his -- yes.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you ever talk to Nicole about this 1989 meeting?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Argumentative.
A. No, I did not.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you ever have any subsequent conversations with Mr. Cowlings about it?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. I can't remember, sir.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you ever come to learn that Nicole had been hit?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation. Leading. Argumentative.
A. If those, you know, allegations were true, I mean, it was obvious that -- you know, that everybody -- from the pictures and so on that the press had thrown in everyone's face, I guess that was enough.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) You are referring now to things that had become public at the time in 1989?
A. Yes.
Q. And you remember seeing reports of this incident in the press?
A. Yes. I remember him having to go down to court and so on and --
Q. While this was going on, Mr. Allen, did you ever ask Mr. Simpson what had happened?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No. As surprising as it may be, there's some things I just don't want to know.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) That's one of them?
A. Yes. I guess.
Q. Did you ever learn about any other incidents of physical abuse by Mr. Simpson against Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation and leading.
A. No.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Is that the only incident that to this day you have become aware of?
MR. LEONARD: Same objection
A. That was the only one that I was aware of.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did Nicole ever discuss with you at any time any physical abuse against her by Mr. Simpson?
A. No, she did not.
Q. And I take it you have never discussed the subject with Mr. Simpson either, correct?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Argumentative.
A. Yes. I never discussed that.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you ever see any marks or bruises on Nicole?
A. No, I did not.
Q. During the time -- withdrawn. You were friends with Mr. Simpson during the time that he was going through his divorce with Nicole, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Simpson talked to you about his feelings concerning the breakup of his marriage?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. He did say he was disappointed. Once again, he didn't go into a lot of detail.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) He was disappointed that it was ending, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he at any time ever tell you about charges of abuse being made against him in his divorce proceedings?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No, he did not.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did he ever tell you that Nicole was inventing claims of abuse against him in connection with his divorce proceedings.?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Argumentative. Lack of foundation.
A. No, he did not.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did Nicole?
A. No, she did not.
Q. Did Nicole ever discuss with you Mr. Simpson's infidelity?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
A. No, she didn't.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did Mr. Simpson ever discuss that with you?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Leading
A. No, he did not.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) During Mr. Simpson's marriage to Nicole, you were aware that Mr. Simpson was dating and seeing other women from time to time, true?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Argumentative. Leading.
A. I had heard, and that's about it. We --
MR. LEONARD: Move to strike.
Q. (Mr. Petrocelli) And who had you heard that Mr. Simpson was seeing or dating?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation. Leading.
MR. SCHEPERS: Who had he heard Mr. Simpson was dating or who had he heard it from?
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) No. Dating.
A. Oh, no one in particular. I just heard.
Q. Who did you hear it from?
A. Just the grapevine.
Q. Would that be the circle of friends that you previously described?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Compound. Leading.
A. It could have been outside the circle.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Do you remember who you heard it from?
A. No I don't.
Q. And do you remember whether it was something that you heard quite often?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague. Leading. Lack of foundation.
A. No I don't.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Do you know whether Mr. Simpson was dating a woman named Tawny Kittan during his marriage to Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
A. I had heard that.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Who did you hear that from?
A. The grapevine.
Q. Who is the grapevine?
A. People.
Q. Can you name them?
A. No, I can't, sir.
Q. Can you name any of them?
A. No I can't.
Q. Did Nicole ever discuss with you prior to her death her feelings about whether to get back with Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Vague. Leading.
A. No.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Or whether she should move on with somebody else?
A. No, she didn't.
Q. Your birthday is in March?
A. Yes.
Q. There was a birthday party for you in March of 1994?
A. I think it was.
Q. And Mr. Simpson attended with Nicole?
A. Yes. We all went to dinner.
Q. And where was that?
A. I think a restaurant called George's.
Q. And who else was there?
A. I think Bernadette Leonard and Ray Leonard.
Q. The six of you?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. Is that the last time that you were out with Nicole and Mr. Simpson together?
A. I think so. To the best of my recollection yes.
Q. Did you observe any problems in Mr. Simpson's interaction with Nicole?
A. No. We had a very pleasant evening.
Q. Did You know about the recital for Sidney Simpson?
A. No I didn't.
Q. When did you make plans to leave for the Cayman Islands?
A. I am not sure.
Q. What was the purpose of that trip? A. The NFL contacted us about an opportunity to go to the Caymans for a fish-off to catch a marlin for $250 000 and I thought it was a great opportunity to do that.
Q. What time did you leave Los Angeles?
A. I think to the best of my recollection, we left around 10 o'clock or so.
Q. In the evening?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you spoken to Mr. Simpson at all that day?
A. I can't recall if I did.
Q. Did you know that he was leaving town that night?
A. I don't recall. I don't think so.
Q. Did you speak to him on June 11, Saturday?
A. I may have. I am not sure because I know I called to see if he wanted to play golf. I don't know which day it was, but he already had his foursome or something like that. So -- Q. Did you make contact with him?
A. Yeah. I gave him a call. And can you tell me anything about that call other than what you have just said? Well he was on the other line.
Q. Excuse me?
A. He was on the other line.
Q. Yeah.
A. So, I asked him and he said he already got his foursome, so -- that he was on another line so he had -- you know he would have to get back to me.
Q. Was this a call so you could play golf Sunday morning?
A. I think. I am not sure.
Q. Did he say who he was talking to?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. And that's the last time you spoke to him before Nicole's death?
A. I think so.
Q. Did you see Mr. Cowlings at all on Saturday, June 11 or Sunday June 12?
A. I think the 12th I was with Mr. Cowlings.
Q. What did you do?
A. We went out to look at some Hummers and we were at the -- I think the Sagebrush Cantina, or something like that, after that.
Q. Did you pick Mr. Cowlings up?
A. I think he came by my house to drop his vehicle there, if I can remember correctly.
Q. And then you -- the two of you went off on --
A. Yeah.
Q. -- to see the cars?
A. I think I rode with him. Yes.
Q. And what time did you get back to your house that day?
A. I am not sure. Maybe around 6-ish or something like that. I am not sure.
Q. What time did you leave with Mr. Cowlings?
A. That I am not sure about.
Q. Several hours before?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you at home the entire time before you left to go out with Mr. Cowlings?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you with anyone else with Mr. Cowlings or just the two of you?
A. Just the two of us.
Q. And you ate at the Sagebrush Cantina in Woodland Mills?
A. Yes.
Q. Or Callabasis?
A. Yes. Somewhere in the valley.
Q. How did you find out about Nicole's death?
A. We were playing golf, and one of the people that worked at the hotel came out on the golf course and said I had an important phone call from -- from my sister-in-law Debbie. So, right away I thought there was something, you know, wrong with the house or something like that. So, I left the course and went to the office and grabbed the phone, and she told me --
Q. Who is she?
A. Debbie Cornell.
MR. SCHEPERS: Can we have that name out of the --
MR. PETROCELLI: It's already in.
MR. SCHEPERS: Publicly -- well, okay. If it' already out there, that's all right.
A. That Nicole had been killed -- or Nicole was dead or something like that. And I said, "Oh, my god." And immediately I thought maybe that she was in a car accident or something like that. And then she went on to say that, "And they think O.J. did it." And I mean, at that point, you know, I was in total shock.
So, I went out and I was playing golf with I think Tim Brown and Michael Warrenstein, and I told those guys, and we immediately stopped golfing and we went -- I went in search of my wife. And then I informed her. And I think I went to the room and, you know, we cried to, you know, just call people to find out what the hell happened, what's going on.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you speak to Mr. Simpson that day?
A. I think it was that evening. Or the next day --
Q. How did you get --
A. -- I think it was. Excuse me. I think it was the next day.
Q. How did you get in touch with him? You called him?
A. Called his house.
Q. And what did you say to him and what did he say to you?
A. You know, first of all, I said, You know, "How are you doing? Are you all right?" And he says that he -- I think he said he couldn't even grieve because they are accusing him. And I think that was -- frankly I don't know what I said after that. And I think my wife took the phone, and I think she said that she, you know, would help out with the kids, or something to that nature, and that was basically it because he sounded really despondent. So -- I mean, you don't -- you are in shock. You don't know what else to say, and the conversation was basically short.
Q. Did you ask him why he was being accused?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No. I mean, at that particular time, you know, you -- I don't know what -- you know, I don't know what was going on. I just wanted to know if he was okay, and I wasn't thinking about anything else.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Is that the conversation?
A. Yes .
Q. Now, at any time that week before his arrest, did you ever have any other conversations with him?
A. No. That was it.
Q. That's the last time you spoke to him?
A. I think so. I think we tried to call him at the Kardashians', and somebody said that he couldn't speak, and that was it.
Q. And did you speak to Mr. Cowlings that week from time to time?
A. Yes .
Q. Did you learn from Mr. Cowlings why Mr. Simpson was being charged or accused of these crimes?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation, leading and it's compound.
A. Well, frankly the people that I tried to contact were in shock as well and didn't know what was going on. CNN was the -- you know, what we sort of relied on.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Seeing what?
A. CNN.
Q. Oh, CNN. You mean the news coverage?
A. Yes. That's what we sort of watched, because everybody was -- we called and -- I don't know. We called a ton of people and nobody knew what was going on, and nobody could believe it. And, you know, it was -- we just sort of got our information from CNN.
Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Cowlings at any time where Mr. Simpson was at the time that Nicole was killed?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No, sir.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Did you discuss with Mr. Cowlings what was the basis for the charges or accusations that Mr. Simpson was responsible for Nicole's death?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Compound. No, sir. I didn't have to because it was all right there on television. I mean, that was it.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) Now, you did not come back for Nicole's funeral, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was your reason for that?
A. Well, frankly, I was out of the country, and I have some regrets about not coming back, but unfortunately she was -- she was gone and there was really nothing that could be done, and all we did was sort of pray for the family, and that's when I eventually -- as time went by, I felt bad about it, and I called Judy Brown and gave her my condolences, because I was -- frankly I was in shock still. Q. Did you have a conversation with Mr. Simpson in which he told you that you should not come back?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
A. Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) And when did that occur?
A. That was during the conversation that we called to find out was he okay. Now that you brought that to my attention, that's when I said, "Do you want me to come back," and he said no.
Q. You gave a statement to the police at some point in time?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You were interviewed by Detectives Luper and Stephens and Deputy District Attorney Chris Darden?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And that was here in Kansas City, right?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. And is everything that you told the police and Mr. Darden during that interview true?
A. Yes.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Compound.
A. Yes, it is, sir. Sorry again.
MR. PETROCELLI: I would like to get some copies made. I would like to attach to the record a copy of that interview.
MR. BELLEMERE: Do you need to get copies before that or do you want to do something else first?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes. We will mark that as an exhibit now.
MR. BELLEMERE: Do You want to mark it before I copy it?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. That's a good idea. Can you mark this as Allen Exhibit No. 1?
MR. LEONARD: Can we take a very short break?
MR. PETROCELLI: Sure.
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Please stand by. We are going off the record at 11:35.
(Recess.)
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are back on record, and it is 11:47.
{Whereupon, Allen Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification by the Reporter.)
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) We are going to attach as Allen Exhibit 1 an interview statement form. You were interviewed on or about September 22, 1994, at the Sheraton hotel in Kansas City by Detectives Luper and Stephens and District Attorney -- Deputy District Attorney Darden?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And everything you said to them at that time was true, correct?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Compound. Leading.
A. Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) You also were interviewed by Mr. Simpson's investigators, Mr. McNally and/or Mr. McKenna by telephone? Do you recall?
A. Yes. I think so. Yes.
Q. Is that the only time you have been interviewed by Mr. Simpson's investigators?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any current business dealings or common business interests with Mr. Simpson?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Even though you and he have not spoken for some time, do you still consider him a close friend of yours?
A. Yes.
MR PETROCELLI No further questions
EXAMINATION BY MR BREWER:
Q. I have just a few questions Mr. Allen, referencing the phone --
VIDEO TECHNICIAN Excuse me. Let's have the mike, please
(By Mr. Brewer) Referencing the phone conversation at the Packar residence that you had with Mr. Simpson, you indicated that he told you that Nicole had told him about your alleged relationship. Is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever ask Nicole about that, whether she had ever said anything to Mr. Simpson about a relationship you allegedly had with her?
MR. LEONARD Objection. Leading.
A. Yes. But she said she didn't want to talk about it
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) She didn't want to talk about it with you?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you have a discussion with Nicole about that?
A. I am not quite sure when I called her, but I called to find out what was going on, and she sort of avoided the issue.
Q. Was it shortly after you had spoken with Mr. Simpson?
A. It wasn't immediate, but it was -- yes.
Q. Because you wanted to find out what was going on?
A. Right.
Q. And you more or less confronted Nicole about this?
A. Yes.
MR. LEONARD Objection. Leading.
A. Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Because you believed Mr. Simpson when he told you that Nicole had claimed this relationship existed, true?
A. Repeat that again, please
Q. You believed Mr. Simpson when he made this statement to you about Nicole telling about a relationship or an alleged relationship that you and she had; is that correct? That's why you called Nicole?
A. Yeah I wanted to find out what was going on.
Q. What did you say to her exactly when you spoke with her?
A. What did I say to her?
Q. Yes.
A. I said, "Nic, what's happening? What's going on?" That's exactly what I said.
Q. Do you know where she was when you spoke with her?
A. She may have been home.
Q. At what residence? Gretna Green?
A. I am not sure, to be honest with you.
Q. Did you talk about anything else in that telephone conversation?
A. No. She was pretty short.
Q. Okay. And, so, you just said, "Nic," you know, "'what's happening," referencing this conversation, and she didn't want to talk about it?
MR LEONARD Objection. Leading.
A. Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Did you press her about this alleged statement that she made to Mr. Simpson about your relationship?
MR. LEONARD Objection. Leading.
A. She was short.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Did you press her about why or whether she even told this to Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD Objection. Compound, argumentative, leading.
A. She was short, so I took it as she didn't want to talk. So --
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Okay Did you ever contact her at any other time with a view towards finding out whether or not she had ever made a statement to Mr. Simpson about an alleged relationship that you and she had?
A. I tried again and she didn't want to talk about it.
Q. When was the next time that you tried?
A. I can't recall, sir.
Q. Was that also a phone call?
A I think so, but I can't recall when.
Q. Do you remember when that was in relationship to the first phone call that you made with a view towards talking to her about this issue? Was it shortly thereafter or months or years later?
A. No. It was probably shortly thereafter.
Q. Okay. And did you make a phone call to her?
A Yes.
Q. And did you make the phone call for the specific purpose of talking with Nicole about this statement that she made to Mr. Simpson about your alleged relationship?
A. Yes
Q. And what did you say to her in that conversation?
A. Basically the same thing "What's going on?"
Q. Okay And when you say, "What's going on," I mean, did you say --
A. What -- you know, what transpired, what happened. That was basically it. And she didn't want to talk about it. So, I dropped the issue.
Q. When you say what transpired, what's happening, did you tell her that you were talking about this statement she made to Simpson about your alleged relationship?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. Well, it was sort of tacit. I think she knew what I was implying.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) When you say it's tacit, I mean, how do she know? What did you say to her that led you to believe she knew what you were talking about?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
A. I didn't say what was going on, like, "How are you doing?" I said, "What was going on, Nic? What is this all about."
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) "What is this all about," referencing the statement?
A. Yes.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. Yes. To paraphrase.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) And was she also at home during this conversation?
A. Yes, I think so.
Q. Do you know where she was?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you know what year this conversation occurred in?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you know what month it occurred in?
A. No, I don't, sir.
Q. Do you know where you were when you made the phone call?
A. No , I don't.
Q. And do you remember what she said to you when you made this statement?
A. She didn't want to talk about it.
Q. She refused to talk about it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you talk about anything else in that conversation?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever speak with any of Nicole's friends about the statement that she made to Mr. Simpson about your alleged relationship?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you make any other efforts to talk to Nicole about this statement to Mr. Simpson about your alleged relationship other than the two phone calls you have just referenced?
A. No, I did not. Q. During any of your personal visits with her where you would drop by, did that subject ever come up?
A. No, it didn't.
Q. Have you ever heard of Ron Goldman?
A. Not until -- you know.
Q. This all happened?
A. Yes.
Q. The murder. You have seen photographs of him in the media?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you recognize him?
A. That's the first time that I ever saw him.
Q. And you have never seen him at Nicole's or at any function that you have been at where Nicole has been?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. Did Mr. Simpson ever reference a waiter that Nicole was seeing in any discussion you have ever had with him?
MR. LEONAAD: Objection. Leading.
A. No, he did not.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) You made a statement when you were asked about the January, 1989, incident that you didn't ask Mr. Simpson about that because there are some things that you don't want to know about. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you ever asked Mr. Simpson whether he killed Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. Yes, I did.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) When did you first ask him that?
A. That was in jail.
Q. When you went to visit him?
A. No. In a phone conversation.
Q. And did you use those words, "Did you kill Nicole?"
A. Yes.
Q. And what did he say?
A. Excuse me. I said, "Did you do it?"
Q. "Did you do it?"
A. Yes. And he said no.
Q. When did you ask him that in the context of this telephone conversation that you had? Was this at the beginning, the middle or the end?
A. It may have been in the middle during the conversation about wanting me to come and testify.
Q. And I take it you asked him the question because you wanted to know in your heart whether he, in fact, killed his ex-wife?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. I think everybody wanted to know.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Did you ever ask him -- did he deny it, say he didn't do it?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
A. Yes, he did.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Did you ask him for an explanation with respect to any of the evidence that you may have seen on T.V.?
A. No, I did not. I felt -- I didn't want to pry. I mean, I felt he was in a -- you know, he was -- he was in jail.
Q. For example, you have indicated that you watched some of the coverage on CNN because you wanted to find out what was going on; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And I assume that you have spoken with Mr. Cowlings just about the facts and circumstances of the murders, true?
A. Don't ask any questions.
Q. You don't ask Mr. Cowlings any questions?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Is that because you don't want to know any answers that may implicate Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Argumentative.
A. I just -- I am not interested. I don't want to know.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) For example, you learned when you were watching T.V. that a glove was found at Rockingham. Do you remember that information going out on T.V.?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have heard that Mr. Simpson's blood was found in Bundy? Do you remember hearing that over the T.V.?
A. Yes.
Q. And you heard that Nicole's blood was found on socks in his bedroom?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have heard that --
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Leading.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) You want to go ahead and answer yes.
A. I heard those things, yes.
Q. And you never questioned him with respect to his explanation as to any of those items ever in any conversation that you have had with him?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Compound. Argumentative. Leading.
A. No, I did not.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Did he ever offer an explanation without your asking him with respect to any piece of evidence that was ever found or ever disseminated in the news media that implicated him in these murders?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague. Lack of foundation. Argumentative.
A. No, I did not.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) For example, where he would volunteer an explanation with respect to why a glove was found on his premises, did he ever tell you anything about that?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Same objections.
A. No.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Did he ever tell you anything about what he did on the 12th, either in the morning, the afternoon or that evening?
A. No, he did not.
Q. That topic has never come up in any of your discussions with Mr. Simpson?
A. No, it did not.
Q. Did you know Paula Barbieri?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you know her?
A. I met Paula, I am not quite sure, several years ago.
Q. Several years ago?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have an understanding with respect to whether she had a romantic relationship with Mr. Simpson at any time?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was your understanding in that regard?
A. Well, I introduced them.
Q. Okay. And how did you meet Paula Barbieri?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. How did you come to meet her initially?
A. I was just out one evening several years ago.
Q. Okay. And, so, you introduced Paula to O.J. Simpson? A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember where you introduced them?
A. I think at his home.
Q. And did you understand at some point thereafter they began to see one another?
A. Yes.
Q. Date, have a romantic relationship?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether at the time of Nicole's death Mr. Simpson was still seeing Paula Barbieri or dating her?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation.
A. No, I don't know.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Do you know whether he saw her in the last month of Nicole's death?
A. No.
Q. At any time after these murders, did you ever speak with Paula Barbieri?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Have you seen her since the murders?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. On Memorial Day in 1994, were you in the desert at LaQuinta with Mr. Simpson and a group of people playing golf?
MR. SCHEPERS: Memorial Day of '94?
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Yes. '94.
A. No. I don't remember.
Q. Do you know whether Mr. Simpson was in Palm Springs or LaQuinta --
A. Wait. '94?
Q. This is before, the Memorial Day before Nicole's murder.
MR. SCHEPERS: Just a few weeks before.
A. No. I wasn't.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Do you know whether Mr. Simpson was in LaQuinta with Paula Barbieri over the Memorial Day weekend playing golf?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation.
A. No, I don't.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) In the last month or two before Nicole's death, did you ever go out with Mr. Simpson and Paula Barbieri with Kathryn, your wife, social?
A. No. Not that I can recall.
Q. Okay. So, as you sit here today, you have no information yourself with respect to whether Mr. Simpson was dating or romantically involved with Paula Barbieri the last month of Nicole's life; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Have you spoken to Bob Kardashian after June 12th?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. Have you attempted to speak with him by telephoning his residence?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. Is he somebody you would consider a close friend?
A. I consider him a friend, yes.
Q. Do you have any business relationships with Mr. Kardashian?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Have you ever?
A. No. I don't think so.
Q. And you have never either telephoned him or spoke with him personally since June 12, 1994?
A. No, I have not.
Q. Mr. Allen, in your police statement, which we marked as Exhibit 1 to your deposition -- do you have that in front of you by any chance.
MR. BREWER: Counsel, if you can show it to him.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) On page 2, if you can just go to page 2 and go to the third --
MR. SCHEPERS: No. Here it is.
MR. BELLEMERE: That's a damn good copy machine, though.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Could you please go to the third paragraph where it starts out saying, "Mr. Allen described his relationship with Nicole as that of acquaintances"? Do you see where it says that?
A. Yes.
Q. Would that be an accurate description of your relationship with Nicole Simpson at the time of her death?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Misstates his prior testimony.
A. We were friends. I think this is sort of a -- you know, a misunderstanding. A misinterpretation, I guess.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) You were close friends, correct?
A. Yeah. We were friends, good friends.
Q. So, an acquaintance in your view wouldn't be an accurate description of your relationship with Nicole at the time of her death, would it?
A. No. That's not accurate.
Q. And did you use that term, if you remember, in describing your relationship with Nicole to Darden or --
A. I don't think I did. If I did, I didn't mean to, no.
Q. Other than the two conversations that you had with Nicole over the telephone regarding the statement she made to Mr. Simpson about your alleged relationship, have you ever spoken with anyone else with a view towards trying to verify whether, in fact, Nicole ever told Mr. Simpson about an alleged relationship that you and she had?
A. I did not.
Q. Was Kathryn a friend of Nicole's, your wife?
A. I wouldn't say good friends, but they were friendly.
Q. Would you characterize their relationship as acquaintances or as friends?
A. Well, she didn't obviously, you know-- you know, border between in there, I guess you would say.
Q. Somewhere in between the two?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. You spoke with Mr. Cowlings the day after -- I am sorry, two days after the murders on the 14th. Do you recall that discussion, a phone conversation with him?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. Repeat that again, please.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Do you recall contacting A.C. on June 14th and talking with him by telephone?
A. No. Not really.
Q. Do you recall on the 16th talking with Mr. Cowlings for about 47 minutes by telephone?
A. No, I don't.
Q. In the first couple of days, two or three days after Nicole's death, do you recall any telephone conversations that you had with Mr. Cowlings that were of a half hour or hour in length?
A. May have been. I am not sure, though.
Q. And do you remember the subject matter of any telephone conversations that would have been that length?
A. Just shock and disbelief and no one could believe it.
Q. Did they also involve some substantive discussions with respect to some of he evidence that was coming out against Mr. Simpson?
A. May have been but I don't remember.
MR. LEONARD: Move to strike.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) You have no recollection with respect to whether that was any part of any conversation you had with Mr. Cowlings?
A. No, I don't. No.
Q. Do you remember Mr. Cowlings saying anything to you with respect to whether he thought Mr. Simpson killed Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. He didn't say anything to me.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Did you know or have you ever heard that as a result of the '89 incident Nicole was taken to the hospital?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Compound. Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation.
A. I had heard that later.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) And had you also heard that she had contusions and a concussion?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation. Leading.
A. Well, because of television I think -- I didn't have any prior knowledge of that, but because of television I think everybody knows now.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) That's how you got that information, from television?
A. Yes.
Q. You are very good friends with A.C.; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did A.C. Cowlings -- A.C. ever tell you that he was the person that took Nicole to the hospital that evening?
A. I found that out later.
Q. When did you find that out?
A. I can't recall -- I can't recall when but I just found it out later. It may have been through television. I don't know.
Q. In connection with this case or some other --
A. In connection with -- I don't know. I don't know. I can't recall, but I had found out that he was the person -- I don't know who said it or whatever, but I found he was the person who supposedly took her to the hospital.
Q. Did A.C. ever tell you that?
A. No.
Q. Have you ever learned that A.C. was actually at the residence that morning?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation. A. I found out later because of the call. When I came to my senses, I figured it all out.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Did you ever talk to A.C. about any of his observations that day?
A. What day, sir?
Q. The January incident I am talking about.
A. No.
Q. Have you ever spoken with A.C. about that incident at all?
MR. SCHEPPERS: Other than the one phone conversation?
A. I may have. I can't recall, though.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) So, as you sit here today, you don't have a specific recollection of talking --
A. No.
Q. Just let me finish my question.
A. I am sorry. He is out of tape.
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Please stand by. We are going off at 12:07.
(Recess.)
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are back on the record, the start of tape 2, and it is 12:10. Please continue.
(By Mr. Brewer) I just want to go back and clear up this A.C. thing. You had never had any discussions with A.C. about any of his observations regarding the New Year's Day incident in '89; is that correct?
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. Would it be fair to say when you were in the Caymans, your primary source of information here in the States was A.C.? Would that be the person that you would contact to find out about this case or Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
A. We called a lot of people, sir, but -- because A.C. wasn't always available, we called a lot of people. So, that's -- I don't think that's a fair assessment.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Do you believe you spoke with Mr. Cowlings on the week of the 13th as many as five or six separate times?
A. No. I wasn't aware of that.
Q. Do you recall speaking with any other individual five or six times other than possibly Mr. Cowlings at that same time?
A. Perhaps. I am not sure, sir.
Q. For example, Mr. Hughes, did you contact him?
A. We may have. We called a lot of people, to be honest with you, and I am not sure who we all called.
Q. You don't -- you don't recall as you sit here today?
A. No. I don't -- I can't recall everybody that we called. Q. The issue with respect to the Time article that you talked about earlier, just so I am clear on something, did Mr. Simpson ask you to actually write an article?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Misstates his prior testimony.
MR. SCHEPERS: I will join in that objection. "Article" is the word Mr. Petrocelli used. Mr. Allen has been using the word "letter."
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Okay. That's what I want to clear up. I just want to make sure. That's why I am asking the question because I am not certain. Was the -- in the context of the discussion you had with Mr. Simpson, were you going to write a -- was it your understanding you were going to write a letter or an article?
A. A letter.
Q. And your reasoning for not wanting to do that was because of the circus atmosphere that had developed surrounding this case?
A. Absolutely.
MR. PETROCELLI: Not this case.
MR. BREWER: "This case" meaning the criminal case.
MR. LEONARD: Yeah. There is no circus around this case.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) Yeah. I take it that you went through kind of a balancing test looking at the relationship you had with Mr. Simpson and his request to help him versus getting involved in the circus atmosphere that you have associated with the criminal case and you decided against writing that letter based upon that balancing test? Did you go through a similar analysis?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague. Argumentative. Leading.
MR. SCHEPPERS: Do you want him to read it back?
(By Mr. Brewer) You want me to ask it again if you don't understand it?
A. Please, yes.
Q. A very good friend of yours asked you to help him by writing a letter to a magazine, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had some concerns about that because what you identified as a circus atmosphere surrounding the case in the criminal case; is that correct?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Asked and answered three times.
A. Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) And I take it that you balances the two, your relationship with Mr. Simpson and this circus atmosphere, and decided against writing a letter because you didn't want to on balance become involved in this circus atmosphere. Is that a fair statement?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague. Leading.
A. Yes. It took some time to do that. And it wasn't an immediate response. I mean, yes, I juggled that.
Q. (By Mr. Brewer) I mean, it wasn't a matter of your not having the time. I mean, you had the time if you wanted to write a letter, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And just so I am clear, there wasn't anything that you felt was false or inaccurate that you were being asked too write, that you can recall, concerning that article?
A. No.
Q. So, the only reason that you can think of as you sit here today for not writing that letter was this circus environment surrounding the criminal case that you didn't want to be a part of. Is that a fair statement?
A. That's fair.
Q. Thank you. That's all I have.
A. Thank you.
EXAMINAT1ON BY MR. KELLY:
Q. Mr. Allen, in what year did you first meet Nicole, if you recall?
A. At the same time I met O.J.
Q. That was back in '78.?
A. Yes .
Q. And would it be fair to say that over the next 10 to 15 years you got to know her very well?
A. Yes.
Q. And you considered her a close friend of yours?
A. Yes.
Q. And how would you describe Nicole as a person?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
A. I think she -- I thought she was a great person. I thought she was a wonderful mother. She really cared about the kids. That's it in a nut shell basically.
Q. (By Mr. Kelly) Did you find her honest?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you find her trustworthy?
A. I think she was pretty trustworthy.
Q. Did you ever know of her to lie on any occasion?
A. Not that I am aware of.
Q. Would you describe her as an emotiona1 person at all?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
A. That's sort of difficult. I have never really seen her, you know, in an emotional state or whatever.
Q. (By Mr. Kelly) You never -- in your own experiences ever saw her get really upset or emotional, did you?
A. No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
A. No, I didn't.
MR. SCHEPERS: Go ahead.
A. No, I did not.
(By Mr. Kelly) Or hysterical in any way? Did you ever see her acting like that?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
A. No, I did not.
Q. (By Mr. Kelly) And, in your opinion, I think you indicated she was a very good mother?
A. Yes.
Q. And in your opinion, was she also a very good wife to Mr. Simpson, also?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
A. From what I know, yes.
Q. (By Mr. Kelly) Okay. And you had never heard through the grapevine, I think was the term you used before, that she had ever been unfaithful to Mr. Simpson when she was married to him, had you?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
A. No. I never heard that.
Q. (By Mr. Kelly) And going to the last month or two before her death in June, 1994, I think you indicated that you had seen her and spoken to her on at least a couple of occasions, had you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And in your experience and having known her for about 15 years at that point, how were her spirits in general when you saw and/or spoke to her on those occasions?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
A. I think they were pretty good.
Q. (By Mr. Kelly) Did she seem depressed to you in any way?
A. No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading. Vague.
MR. KELLY: I have no further questions.
MR. LEONARD: I would like to take about 15 minutes, and then we'll get it done.
MR. PETROCELLI: Pardon me?
MR. LEONARD: I would like to take about a 15-minute break. And then we can go. It will be about an hour.
(Lunch recess.)
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are back on the record. It's 12:31. Please continue.
EXAMINATION BY MR. LEONARD: Good afternoon. I wanted to ask you some more questions about your background. You have been a professional football player for how long?
A. This will be my 15th season.
Q. And other than playing football, do you have other sources of income?
MR. SCHEPERS: Is this relevant?
MR. LEONARD: Yeah. I think it is.
A. Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Okay. And do you engage in a lot of promotional activity?
A. Some. Very little actually.
Q. Do you go to card signings and things like that:
A. Very little, yeah.
Q. And you make some public appearances?
A. Yes.
Q. Your public image is important to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And would you say you have a very close relationship with your wife Kathryn?
A. Yes.
Q. And your relationship to her is very important to you; is that correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to object. .I thought you were bringing in background information. This is all leading. So, I am going to object on -- every time you ask a leading question on that ground. Objection. Leading.
A. Yes.
(By Mr. Leonard) And you don't want to do anything to hurt her, right?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. Wouldn't any husband?
MR. PETROCELLI: Can I have a stipulation I don't have to object each and every time?
MR. LEONARD: No. You are not going to have that stipulation.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I just wanted to make your record a little easier but we will do it the hard way.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Do you have someone who does your public relations work, your public appearance work, he is a fellow named Mike Gilbert?
A. Yeah. Mike no longer does that, though.
Q. When did Mike stop working for you?
A. Recently.
Q. How recently?
A. In the last -- I think he made some appearances for me, and I fulfilled the -- you know, the ones that he had, and I think he decided to get out of the business.
Q. When is the last time you spoke to Mike Gilbert?
A. I am not quite sure. A couple of week., three weeks ago. Something like that. I am not sure.
Q. So, your testimony is, you have no further business relationship with Mr. Gilbert at this point?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. Unless he is behind the scenes because I am dealing with somebody else now.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) But to your knowledge, you don't have any continuing business relationship with Mr. Gilbert; is that correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
MR. SCHEPERS: Objection. Asked and answered.
A. Correct.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You -- when you first heard about this, these murders, you wanted to -- you wanted to stay as far away from the matter as you could. Is that fair to say?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
MR. KELLY: Objection. Leading.
MR. PETROCELLI: Also argumentative.
A. No That's not my first initial thought I would say I wanted to come back and be supportive, and I asked O.J. if I should and he said no. And that's it.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You mentioned in your direct testimony that at the time that you were asked about the letter that you wanted to stay out of the circus atmosphere: is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had that in mind also when Mr. Simpson asked you about testifying. Isn't that fair to say?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
MR. SCHEPERS: Objection. Mischaracterizes prior testimony.
MR. PETROCELLI: Also vague and ambiguous.
A. No. But that was part of the equation, though.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You did have that in mind, right?
MR. PETROCELLI: Same objections. Unclear what you mean by "that".
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Did you understand my question?
A. No. Could you repeat that, please?
Q. When you spoke to Mr. Simpson about testifying at the trial, you had in mind that you wanted to stay out of the circus atmosphere, correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading. Argumentative. Misstates his prior testimony.
A. Yes. I had -- that was a thought.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) It was a major thought in your mind, wasn't it?
MR. KELLY: Objection. Argumentative.
MR. PETROCELLI: Vague. Ambiguous. Leading.
A. No. It wasn't a major thought.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Is it your testimony that the only reason that you didn't come back for Nicole's funeral is because Mr. Simpson suggested that you not come back? Is that your testimony?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Argumentative.
MR. KELLY: Objection. That mischaracterizes his previous testimony.
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. Repeat that again, please.
(By Mr. Leonard) Yeah. Is the only reason you didn't come back for Nicole's funeral because Mr. Simpson told you not to come back? Is that -- is that fair to say?
MR. PETROCELLI: Same objections.
A. To my best recollection, yes.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) And you had no thought in mind at that time that you wanted to avoid any kind of exposure to the press by going to the funeral?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Is that true?
A. That's true.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) That thought never entered your mind?
A. No, it did not.
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Argumentative. Leading. Move to strike the answer for the purpose of interposing the objections.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You had a series of telephone conversations with Mr. Simpson from jail, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Were these conversations all in the late -- early to late summer of 1994?
MR. KELLY: Objection. Vague as to time frame.
A. I can't -- I can't remember. I don't know exactly.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You can't pinpoint when the last conversation took place? You have no idea?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading and argumentative.
A. I can't pinpoint it.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) And the last conversation was the conversation which you are testifying was discussed, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you -- you spoke with the police and Mr. Darden at some point, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it your intention to cooperate as fully as you could with the police and prosecutors when you spoke with them?
A. To cooperate with everyone.
Q. And including the police and prosecutors, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And I think you have testified already that everything that was in the statement was truthful and accurate, correct?
MR. SCHEPERS: No. That's not what he said.
MR. KELLY: Object.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's not what he said. He said that everything that he told the police and the investigators was truthful and accurate. He hasn't even read the statement and indicated that he never even saw it to me off the record.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Okay. Everything that you --
MR. SCHEPERS: Join in that objection.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Okay. Everything that you told them was accurate and truthful, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you weren't trying to hold anything back from the police at that point?
MR. SCHEPPERS: Objection.
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Argumentative.
A. No. I wasn't.
MR. PETROCELLI: And leading.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) For instance, if you knew something that was harmful to Mr. Simpson, you weren't holding it back, correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Argumentative. Leading.
A. No, I wasn't.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) And if you had learned something that was harmful to Mr. Simpson after that interview ended, would you have told that to the police and prosecutors?
MR. KELLY: Objection as to the form of the question.
MR. SCHEPERS: Objection. Calls for speculation.
MR. KELLY: If he knew something after the interview had ended he would have told them?
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Do you understand my question?
MR. PETROCELLI: It calls for speculation.
A. No.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You don't understand the question?
A. No, You must repeat that again, please.
Q. Okay. If you had learned something that was harmful to Mr. Simpson after the interview, would you have taken steps to contact the police and prosecutors to inform them of it?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Calls for speculation. Argumentative. Compound.
MR. SCHEPPERS: Same objection. If he wants to speculate, speculate.
MR. PETROCELLI: Vague and leading.
A. If I had any information that possibly could have helped this case, I think I would have done so.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) For either side, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you mention the conversation about Mr. Simpson wanting to testify -- wanting you to testify to Mr. Darden and the police during that interview?
MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to object on the ground there's absolutely no foundation that he was even asked that. It's argumentative. It's leading, also. Lacks foundation, argumentative and leading.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Can you pick up the statement, sir, that's marked as Exhibit No. 1? I want you to take a look at the statement. I want you to take a minute to read the statement in its entirety, if you would please.
A. Which one, sir? You don't --
Q. The entire statement.
A. Read this entire --
Q. Yes.
MR. KELLY: Then I am going to ask that we go off the record for --
MR. LEONARD: Sure. That's fine.
MR. KELLY: -- rather than having him sit there on videotape and read a statement for five minutes.
MR. LEONARD: That's fine.
MR. KELLY: I wished we had asked him when we had two prior breaks when he had plenty of time to read it. Go off the record.
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Please stand by. It is 12:41. We are off the record.
(Recess.)
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: We are back on the record. It's 12:51. Please continue.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Have you had a chance to review Exhibit 1, which is the statement you provided to the police on --
A. Yes.
Q. -- November 22nd -- excuse me, on September 22nd, 1994?
A. Yes.
Q. I would like to direct your attention to page 6, the third paragraph.
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Do you see in that paragraph where you told the police and Mr. Darden that you had received several collect calls from Mr. Simpson?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that in response to some questions they were asking about contacts you had with Mr. Simpson?
A. Frankly, I can't remember.
Q. Do you recall when they were asking you questions -- excuse me. Do you recall when you made the statement that you had received several collect calls from Mr. Simpson that you already had had the conversation about whether you would testify? Do you remember that?
A. No, I don't.
Q. You don't remember one way or the other?
A. No.
Q. Did you at any point after you had the conversation with Mr. Simpson ever report that to the police or the prosecutor, the conversation regarding whether you would testify or not?
A. No, I did not.
Q. How long have you known Mike Gilbert?
A. Awhile. A long time.
Q. And how would you describe your relationship with Mr. Gilbert?
MR. BREWER: It's vague as to time.
A. I think it's a good relationship.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You -- over the period of time that you knew Mr. Gilbert, did you become friendly with him?
A. Yes.
Q. And he handled some of your public relations and promotional activities, correct?
A. Specifically -- specifically card shows. That was basically it.
Q. Okay. And you would from time to time travel -- he would travel with you or would meet you in locations to --
A. Yes.
Q. You have to let me finish.
A. Oh, I am sorry. I though- you were done. I apologize.
Q. -- when you would go to card shows?
A. Are you done?
Q. Yeah.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Do you believe Mr. Gilbert to be an honest person?
A. I think he is.
Q. Have you ever had any occasion to -- where you knew that Mr. Gilbert was lying?
A. No. I don't think so. I think he is a pretty honest guy.
Q. And you had trusted him to assist you in your business enterprises to some extent, correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading and misstates his testimony.
A. Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Okay. And why is it that you no longer have a business relationship with Mr. Gilbert?
A. I think because of all that have -- that has happened, Mike, I guess he was under a lot of strain, and he had said he had gotten several death threats, and stuff, for I guess his working relationship with O.J., and he decided it was time to get out of business. I think he put his family before, you know, everything else, I guess.
Q. And is that something that Mr. Gilbert told you that he was getting out of the business and no longer wanted to have a relationship with you? Is that your testimony?
A. With me?
Q. Yeah.
A. I didn't -- I don't think he said he didn't want to have a relationship with me. He just said he couldn't -- you know, he was moving on, he was getting out of this business. It was too stressful under the circumstances.
Q. And he had --
A. That's paraphrasing.
Q. And he told you that directly?
A. Yes.
Q. When did he tell you that?
A. Awhile ago.
Q. How long ago?
A. Months ago.
Q. Do you have any idea whether Mr. Gilbert is coming into Kansas City this weekend for any type of a card show that involves you?
A. No, I am not.
Q. You have no -- you are not aware of that?
A. No. There was originally a show supposed to be on Father's Day or something that I canceled or something, but to my knowledge, no one is coming here.
Q. You canceled a card show?
A. Well, I canceled my appearance. I couldn't -- you know.
Q. And that was something that Mr. Gilbert was --
A. I don't know if he did it or not, but he had mentioned it, and I don't know if he is the one that put it together or not.
Q. But he mentioned it to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you called him at some point and canceled it?
A. : think he had mentioned the date -- this is sort of confusing because there was somebody else trying to get me to do the same show, and because of the conflict, I decided not to do it.
Q. And when did you -- and you related that to Mr. Gilbert?
A. I think I did.
Q. When? Just approximately when that was, if you can recall.
A. I don't know. A month ago or something like that.
Q. Now, you have denied under direct examination that you have had -- that you had any sexual contact at all with Nicole; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And by that did you mean that -- and I think you were asked questions such as whether you had even kissed her before.
A. Right.
MR. PETROCELLI: Romantically kissed her.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard} Romantically kissed her. Well, let me ask you. Have you ever kissed her in a non-romantic fashion? Let me ask you that.
A. On the cheek, yes.
Q. Okay. But you deny any other type of sexual activity with her at any point?
A. Yes. Yes, I do.
Q. For instance, you deny any type of fondling or foreplay or anything like that; is that correct?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you recall traveling to Buffalo in October of 1994 for a Chiefs/Buffalo game? Do you remember that?
A. Well, yes, of course.
Q. You do?
A. Yeah.
Q. You stayed at the Hyatt Hotel?
A. I guess, yeah.
Q. And there was a card show that -- during that game, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. At the weekend of that game, right?
A. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I rarely do card shows the same weekend we have a game. So --
Q. Well, let me ask you this. Do you recall Mr. Gilbert being with you in the hotel?
A. Oh, okay. A private signing. That's what you call it. He brings in stuff for me to sign, yes.
Q. Oh, okay. So --
A. So -- yeah. So, it's not like a show.
Q. I don't know what you do. I am sorry.
A. Well --
MR. PETROCELLI: You are walking over him.
A. Sorry.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) He brought some items --
MR. PETROCELLI: Listen to the question.
A. He brought some items for me to sign.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Okay. And you both stayed in the hotel together, right? He was in one room and you were in another room?
A. Yes. I -- I assume he was. I don't know if he stayed there or not. He came to your room at some point? Do you remember that?
A. No. I think he had a room. I don't know if he was staying in that room. I don't think he came to my room.
Q. You have no recollection of him being in your room at any time?
A. No, I don't. I think I went to a room where the items were, sir.
Q. Oh, okay. My question, though, is, and I want you to think carefully, you have no recollection of Mr. Gilbert going to your room at any point; is that correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. No, I don't.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Are you saying it could have happened but you don't recall it or that it did not happen?
MR. KELLY: Objection. Argumentative and compound.
A. I don't recall him coming to my room.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Do you recall going to his room? I don't mean where the items were set up, but his room where it appeared that he was actually staying?
A. No.
MR. KELLY: Objection. Asked and answered and asked and answered.
MR. LEONARD: No. I thought that was --
A. No. I don't recall that.
MR. KELLY: Think whatever you want. That's all right.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You don't recall?
A. No.
Q. Now, shortly before this -- this occasion when you were in Buffalo with Mr. Gilbert, there was a -- there were some tabloid articles about you and the possibility of you having an affair with Nicole. Do you recall that?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading. Yes.
(By Mr. Leonard) And that was something that upset you, correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. The allegations in and of themself, yes.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) And do you recall Mr. Gilbert telling you that he had bought all the tabloids and all the magazines that were -- were tabloid-type magazines that contained these articles at the gift shop, that he had actually bought them all to remove them from public view? Do you recall him telling you that?
A. No.
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. I don't recall him saying that.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Do you know if he did that?
A. No, I don't. No.
Q. Were you being teased or ribbed by your teammates about this -- what was in the tabloids?
MR. SCHEPERS: Do you have a time frame?
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Yeah. Let's say during that time period. That is in -- let's say in October of 1994. Do you recall that?
A. There may have just one or two guys. Most of them were pretty sensitive to what was going on.
Q. But you were upset by the individuals -- individual teammates that were ribbing you, correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. No. I didn't get upset at any individuals.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) It didn't bother you?
A. No.
MR. PETROCELLI: Leading.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Do you recall discussing that with Gilbert?
A. No, I don't.
Q. The fact that -- that you were being teased?
A. No. I don't recall that.
Q. It could have happened. You don't recall it?
A. I don't recall it.
MR. KELLY: Objection. Argumentative.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Did you -- again, during -- I am directing your attention to this -- the time that you were with Gilbert in October of 1994 at the Hyatt Hotel. Do you recall that there was a -- some type of a contest on a local radio station involving driftwood? Do you remember that?
A. No, I don't.
Q. You didn't -- you don't know anything about that?
A. No. I don't remember that.
Q. You don't remember Mr. Gilbert discussing that with you?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading. I don't remember that.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Do you recall Mr. Gilbert telling you that he had called the radio station and demanded that they stop the contest? Do you remember that?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. No, I don't.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) This -- you have no memory of anything like that happening?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading and argumentative.
A. No.
MR. SCHEPERS: Also asked and answered.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Is that your testimony?
MR. PETROCELL1: Same objections.
A. Yes. I don't -- I don't recall that.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Do you recall having a discussion with Mr. Gilbert about Faye Resnick's book and some allegations in Faye Resnick's book?
MR. KELLY: Same time period, Dan?
MR. LEONARD: Yes. Same occasion.
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. That, I do recall.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) And Mr. Gilbert told you what was in the book?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. I can't remember if he told me. I think my attorney might have told me. Not these gentlemen but my attorney in Los Angeles.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Okay. But you had a discussion with Mr. Gilbert about that, right?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. I think -- I think -- I think Mike mentioned that, yes.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Did you tell him you were upset about that?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
MR. KELLY: And I believe that -- this is a conversation with his attorney you are asking about?
MR. LEONARD: No. Gilbert.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You understood I was asking you about Mr. Gilbert, right?
A. Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. I may have been dis -- yeah. Upset, disappointed, yeah. Wouldn't you?
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) During that --
A. I mean, I am just asking the question. I mean, it's sort of obvious.
Q. During that discussion with Mr. Gilbert, did you tell him that you had had oral sex with Nicole Simpson?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. No, I did not.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You deny that?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading and argumentative.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Do you deny that, sir?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading and argumentative.
MR. SCHEPERS: Asked and answered.
A. Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You said earlier in your direct testimony that you couldn't recall anyone else that you had discussed this issue of having a relationship with Nicole other than a few individuals. You didn't mention Mr. Gilbert; isn't that correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading and argumentative.
MR. KELLY: Objection. Mostly mischaracterizes his answer. He just denied having this conversation with Mr. Gilbert.
A. I did not say that to Mr. Gilbert.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You discussed with Mr. Gilbert the issue or the allegation that you had a relation -- romantic relationship with Nicole Simpson, correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. No, I did not.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You did not?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) That was not part of the discussion?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
A. No, I did not.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) What did you discuss about Faye Resnick's book with him?
A. I think the fact that I was in there, and I said I think, "I don't want to hear that crap," or -- you know.
Q. And you were in there and you were discussing the fact that you were in there because there was an allegation of a romantic involvement with Nicole, correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
MR. SCHEPERS: Objection. Mischaracterizes his testimony.
MR. KELLY: Outright harassment at this point, too, of the witness.
A. It was -- repeat that again, please.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Yeah. Do you recall that the discussion about Faye Resnick's book and the fact that you were in it involved her allegation that you had a romantic relationship with Nicole?
MR. PETROCELL1: Same objections.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Do you recall that?
MR. PETROCELLI: Same objections.
A. I do recall that.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) Okay.
A. And I told him I didn't want to hear that stuff.
Q. So, you did have a discussion about this issue with Mr. Gilbert?
MR. PETROCELLI: Leading.
A. He brought it up, and I said, "I don't want -- I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to hear that stuff.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) When is the last time -- strike that. Have you had -- ever had any other discussions with Mr. Gilbert about this issue? And when I say this issue, I mean the allegation that you had a romantic relationship with Nicole Brown Simpson other than the discussion you had in the hotel room in October of 1994?
A. Not that I can recall, no.
Q. When you say that, sir, I want it to be very clear.
A. I don't think I did, but --
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Argumentative.
A. Yeah. I don't -- I have no memory of having another conversation with Mr. Gilbert.
Q. (By Mr. Leonard) You may have, but you don't recall? Is that what you are saying?
MR. KELLY: Objection. Augmentative.
MR. PETROCELLI: And leading.
A. I nave no memory of one at this point.
MR. LEONARD: I don't have any further questions.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q. I just have one question. You -- do you see in your police statement that there is a reference that you offered financial assistance?
MR. SCHEPERS: I believe that mischaracterizes his statement. I am sorry, Dan.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) I am just referring to your -- to the police statement, Exhibit 1.
MR. KELLY: Page 6, paragraph 3 that you looked at before.
Q. (By Mr. Petrocelli) It says there, and I will quote the statement, "He has not been asked for any financial assistance but has offered, end of quotes.
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you see that statement?
A. Yeah, I think I did.
Q. Did you offer Mr. Simpson financial assistance?
A. I think I did, yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you. No further questions.
MR. KELLY: No further questions.
MR. BREWER: No questions.
MR. LEONARD: No questions.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let's put on our -- a stipulation which has governed all of the deposition transcripts in this case, that the original of the transcript can be sent to you, Mr. -- how do you pronounce your last name?
MR. SCHEPERS: Schepers.
MR. PETROCELLI: -- Schepers on behalf of Mr. Allen and that from your receipt of the original that the witness will have 30 days within which to read, review and sign the transcript and make any changes, if necessary, and that you will advise us that the transcript has been signed and whether there are any changes. And if we don't get notification from you within 30 days of your receipt, then a certified copy of the transcript can be used in lieu of the original, for all purposes, including trial, and that the witness can sign the transcript under penalty of perjury.
MR. SCHEPERS: And we also add that he can sign the deposition transcript before any notary public.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's acceptable, also.
MR. KELLY: So stipulated.
MR. BREWER: So stipulated.
MR. LEONARD: So stipulated.
MR. SCHEPERS: I nave no problem with that. Thirty days ought to be fine.
VIDEO TECHNICIAN: End of deposition at 1:10.
MARCUS LAMARR ALLEN
Subscribed and sworn to before me this day of _____, 19_____.
My commission expires
Notary Public in and for