SHARON RUFO,
Plaintiff,
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON et al.,
Defendants
FREDRIC GOLDMAN,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al.,
Defendants
LOUIS H. BROWN, etc.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,
Defendant.
Videotaped deposition of Brian Kaelin, taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard, 10th Floor, Los Angeles, California, commencing at 9:30 a.m., on Tuesday, February 20, 1996, before David S. Coleman, CSR #4613, pursuant to Court Order.
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS FREDRIC GOLDMAN, ET AL:
MITCHELL, SILBERBERG & KNUPP
BY: DANIEL M. PETROCELLI, ESQ.
EDWARD M. MEDVENE, ESQ.
ARTHUR GROMAN, ESQ.
11377 West Olympic Boulevard
Sixth Floor
Los Angeles, California 90064-1683
FOR THE PLAINTIFF ESTATE OF BROWN:
JOHN QUINLAN KELLY, ESQ.
330 Madison Avenue
New York, New York 10017-5090
(212) 682-1700
FOR THE PLAINTIFF SHARON RUFO
HORNBERGER & CRISWELL
BY: MICHAEL A. BREWER, ESQ.
444 South Flower Street
Third-First Floor
Los Angeles, California 90071
APPEARANCES (Continued):
FOR THE DEFENDANT ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON:
BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER
BY: ROBERT C. BAKER, ESQ.
2850 Ocean Park Boulevard
Suite 300
Santa Monica, California 90405-2936
-and-
BAILEY, FISHMAN & LEONARD
BY: DANIEL LEONARD, ESQ.
66 Long Wharf
Boston, Massachusetts 02110
(61 7) 723-1380
-and-
ROBERT D. BLASIER, ESQ.
6355 Riverside Boulevard
Suite 2-F
Sacramento, California 95831
(916) 427-1600
FOR THE WITNESS BRIAN KAELIN:
MONASCH & PLOTKIN
BY: MICHAEL PLOTKIN, ESQ.
1801 Avenue of the Stars
Los Angeles, California 90067-5890
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: ROD RIGOLE
ALSO PRESENT: ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Here begins videotape No. 1 in the deposition of Brian Kaelin, Volume III in the consolidated cases of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs. Orenthal James Simpson in the Superior Court, State of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is SC 031947. Today's date is Tuesday, February 20th, 1996. The time is approximately 9:36.
This deposition is being taken at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California and was made at the request of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp. The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed by the Coleman, Haas, Martin & Schwab of Los Angeles, California.
Would counsel please identify yourselves and state whom you represent.
MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for the Plaintiff Fred Goldman.
MR. BREWER: Michael Brewer for Plaintiff Sharon Rufo.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly for Plaintiff Brown.
MR. LEONARD: Daniel Leonard for O.J. Simpson.
MR. PHILIP BAKER: Phil Baker for O.J. Simpson.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Bob Baker for O.J. Simpson.
ARTHUR GROMAN: Arthur Groman for Fred Goldman.
MR. PLOTKIN: Michael Plotkin for Brian Kaelin.
BRIAN KAELIN, having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
EXAMINATION:
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Good morning, Mr. Kaelin.
A: Good morning.
Q: You realize you are still under oath?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. Between Thursday day and today, have you done anything in addition to prepare yourself for this deposition?
A: I read a little book.
Q: All right. And that's Marc Eliot's book?
A: Yes.
Q: Anything else that you have done?
A: No.
Q: Did you meet with anybody from the plaintiff's side?
A: No.
Q: Did you meet with Peter Gelblum?
A: No.
Q: Did you meet with Dan Petrocelli?
A: No.
Q: All right. Michael Brewer?
A: No.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: John Q. Kelly?
A: No.
Q: Now, in terms of the conversations that you have related in this deposition that you had with Nicole, did those conversations continue after the reconciliation that she had with O.J. Simpson in May of 1993?
MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague as to what conversations.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Let me see if I can make it more specific.
Q: The tea conversations, as we referred to them, where Nicole indicated to you some personal areas of her life, did they continue after she had began reconciliation with Mr. Simpson?
A: I had conversation with her all the way up until I moved.
Q: So the conversations continued from January of '93 to January of 94. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And after the conversations that you had with Miss Simpson concerning her personal life--
(Telephone interruption.)
Q: After the conversations that you had with Miss Simpson about her personal life, did you feel that you were a very close friend of hers in December of 1993?
A: Yes.
Q: And then in January of 1994 you moved in with Mr. Simpson and your friendship ended as you had previously known it. Is that true?
MR. PETROCELLI: Friendship with Nicole?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: With Nicole. I'm sorry.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: In terms of your relationship with Nicole, she had given you a place to live for approximately a year. Had she not with the reduced rental rate?
A: Yes.
Q: And she had brought you into her circle of friends so that you knew Cora Fishman, you knew Cici; you knew Faye Resnick. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you then went to Mr. Simpson s house because you didn't have to pay any rent at all. True?
A: Yes.
Q: So it was a better deal and you forsook Miss Simpson for $500 a month. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you then after you had done that, you -- Well, strike that.
Q: Did you have any social dates that you went out with Nicole Brown Simpson and Marcus Allen before January of 1994?
A: Before January of 1994--
Q: Sure.
A: --if I had gone out with--
Q: With Marcus Allen, Nicole, yourself and a date?
A: Yes.
Q: How many occasions?
A: Once.
Q: And approximately when was that?
A: I don't know the exact date, but I remember the event.
Q: All right. In terms of the calendar year if '93, do you have any recollection if it was in the spring, the summer or the fall?
A: I believe it was the spring.
Q: All right. It was before the reconciliation with Mr. Simpson and Nicole?
A: I don't know when the reconciliation was, but the event was I think in spring, with the date.
Q: Is it your testimony now that you do not know when Mr. Simpson and Nicole Brown Simpson tried to get back together?
MR. PETROCELLI: The question is argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I don't know the exact date.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Well, do you know approximately when it was?
A: Somewhere in '94 -- in '93 when the reconciliation --
Q: Do you know whether it was the spring, the summer, the fall, the winter?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Now, as you sit here today. can you state with certainty that the testimony you gave last Wednesday and Thursday was untainted by what you read and heard in this case in the media?
MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to object to the question on the ground that it lacks foundation; it's vague; it's compound; it's overbroad.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: You can answer.
A: Say the question again.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: David, would you read it back. please. (Pending question read as follows:
Q: Okay. Now, as you sit here today, can you state with certainty that the testimony you gave last Wednesday and Thursday was untainted by what you read and heard in this case in the media?
MR. PETROCELLI: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: Yes, some of it -- some -- some news stories I did hear. My testimony was the truth but there are news stories that I did see on TV.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Well, maybe my question is unclear. What you have testified to last Thursday, as I understand it, was your recollection about events as they occurred in 1993 and 1994. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And what I am asking you is: Can you tell us with certainty that the testimony you gave on Wednesday and Thursday last is untainted by what you read and heard in the media in this case subsequent to the events that you've been testifying to?
MR. PETROCELLI: Same objections. Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Sure.
THE WITNESS: I can't be a hundred percent certain. no.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Do you have any estimate, if you can, as to what testimony you were giving is untainted by what you read and heard in the media and what is your recollection?
MR. KELLY: Objection--
THE WITNESS: I can't give a percentage.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right. Thank you.
MR. PETROCELLI: Same objections as previously made.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now, relative to Nicole's conversations with you in 1993, you, as I understand it, wanted Nicole and O.J. to get back together. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And during that period of time she had talked to you about an event that occurred on January 1st, 1989 where there was a claim that O.J. had hit her. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And then she had also indicated to you that she believed that she thought O.J. would one day kill her with scissors. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now. did you ever indicate to the Grand Jury or to the lawyers questioning you in the preliminary hearing anything about the conversations with Nicole relative to this thought that she had--
MR. KELLY: Objection--
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: -- concerning O.J.'s going to kill her with scissors?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Lacks foundation. Assumes he was asked these questions, among other things.
MR. BREWER: Are you talking about with respect to the actual proceedings themselves also?
MR. KELLY: And it would be irrelevant and inadmissible if asked.
MR. PLOTKIN: Can I ask that the question be read back?
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q: Now, did you ever indicate to the Grand Jury or to the lawyers questioning you in the preliminary hearing anything about the conversations with Nicole relative to this thought that she had concerning OJ.'s going to kill her with scissors? ")
MR. PLOTKIN: Answer the question.
MR. PETROCELLI: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe I was asked that.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Was the first time that you ever relayed that to anybody when you were giving your interview to Marc Eliot?
A: I think so.
Q: You never mentioned it to O.J. Simpson before you had mentioned it to Marc Eliot. Isn't that true?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, are you telling us Mr. Kaelin, that what you wanted Nicole to do, who was a friend of yours, was to go back to O.J. Simpson who you say had had a physical altercation with you and who she thought was going to kill her? Is that what you wanted her to do?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. There is no testimony about a physical altercation between Mr. Simpson and Mr. Kaelin.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I am sorry. I misspoke. Mr. Simpson and Nicole.
MR. PETROCELLI: You want to rephrase your question?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Sure.
Q: Are you telling us, Mr. Kaelin, what you wanted to occur was that Nicole Brown Simpson would be reunited with Mr. Simpson who had had a physical altercation with her and, further, that she thought that person was going to kill her with scissors? Is that what you wanted?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. Now. and that thought of yours that is, the reuniting of Nicole Brown Simpson and O.J. Simpson, was constant from 1993 January of l993 to December of 1993. Correct?
A: Repeat that again.
Q: You had the same thought, that is, of reuniting Nicole with O.J., from January of '93 to and including December of '93. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. Now. I want to -- Did that thought remain your desire during and after the event of October 25, 1993?
A: That was the first time I was scared.
Q: All right. Now, I take it that you had never been scared in the presence of Mr. Simpson before October 25,1993?
A: Yes.
Q: And Mr. Simpson didn't strike anyone on October 25,1993, did he?
A: No.
Q: He didn't threaten anyone with physical harm on October 25,1993, did he?
A: No.
Q: And did you ever testify--Strike that. You testified here on Thursday that the door was not broken before the incident of October 25, 1993, did you not?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Misstates his testimony. You objected to my question about to the extent the door had been previously broken.
THE Witness: The door had been broken.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Was the door at all broken at the time -- Well, strike that one, too. Was the door broken before October 25, 1993?
A: I believe it had been fixed and rebroken on the 25th.
Q: So is it your testimony that the door was not broken at the time the incident occurred on October 25, 1993?
A: It was not broken.
Q: And did you ever listen to the tape and what we have called the surreptitious tape of the incident of 10-25-93 that the police have?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. There has been no testimony about the surreptitious tape. From this witness' mouth, anyway, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I understand that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
MR. PLOTKIN: You say you have called the surreptitious tape." Can you identify that for us?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes. There is a tape that was apparently taken by a police officer who was present at the house that has been identified, and there is a tape recording of that.
Q: Did you ever listen to that tape?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever listen to the tape?
A: From TV I did.
Q: Did you listen to the full tape or do you know?
A: I don't think it was the full. I heard a few minutes from it. I don't know how long it was.
Q: And if on the two tapes, the tape and the surreptitious tape, Nicole Brown Simpson said the door was broken before O.J. ever came over and O.J. Simpson said the door was broken before he ever got there on 10-25-93, you would disagree with both of them. Correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I just know that he broke the door down.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: And you don't know -- Strike that. You do know that the door was not broken before Mr. Simpson impacted the door with whatever. Correct?
A: I think you need to clarify "broken" to me. It was fixed but then it had to be re-fixed after it was broke again. That's what I'm trying to get.
Q: All right. So in your opinion it was broken, fixed and then rebroken by Mr. Simpson on October 25 of 1993. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. Now, did you see Mr. Simpson break that door?
A: No.
Q: So you don't know if he broke it at all.
A: No. I fixed it that night. and it was said it was broken by him.
Q: Okay.
MR. PETROCELLI: What was the rest of his answer?
THE WITNESS: Just now?
MR. PETROCELLI: 'Said it was broken by him." Who said that?
THE WITNESS: Oh, Nicole said.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Nicole said it was broken by him on October 25,1993. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: All right. What else did Nicole say?
A: She was talking to the police. It wasn't in part of the conversation with the police, but she told the police that he had broken it too.
Q: Now, you heard her say to the police that he had broken in?
A: That he had broken the doors.
Q: You didn't hear Nicole say that O.J. had broken into the house, did you?
A: Just broken the doors.
Q: Now, when you entered the house on October 25, 1993, where was Nicole?
A: Okay. I never entered the house. I entered the guesthouse in the back.
Q: Okay. You never came into the house during the time the argument was ensuing?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see from the guesthouse where Nicole was --
A: Yes.
Q: -- physically located in the house?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And where was she physically located when you saw her?
A: She was in the kitchen on the phone.
Q: And did she remain to your knowledge in the kitchen on the phone?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that a cordless phone or phone that had a cord?
A: Phone with a cord.
Q: All right. And from the tape that you heard, was--the portion that you heard. was she in the bedroom at the time she was calling the police?
A: I don't think so.
Q: You think she had remained throughout the argument in the kitchen?
A: From what I know, I think that's correct.
Q: And by the way, was Nicole Brown Simpson yelling at O.J.?
A: She was yelling on the phone.
Q: And was she yelling at O.J. that you heard from your back house?
MR. PETROCELLI: Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I think there were shouts to him.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right. By the way, did you come to the opinion and conclusion that Nicole Brown Simpson was a strong woman, strong-willed woman?
MR. KELLY: Objection. Vague.
MR. PETROCELLI: Lacks foundation. No foundation.
THE WITNESS: To a degree strong on certain things. I mean, that's open-ended. I don't know what part of strong, strong-willed.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: She didn't take a lot of static or grief from people, did she?
MR. PETROCELLI: Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know the answer.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right. Now, in terms of her going out and going out with Cora Fishman and Faye Resnick, did she express to you any reservations about Faye Resnick?
A: I think that Faye was just after money a lot.
Q: Did she express to you that Faye Resnick was using drugs?
MR. PETROCELLI: Vague as to time.
THE WITNESS: At what time?
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: At any time in January of '93 to December of '93 when you were having these tea conversations.
A: I think she mentioned Faye was doing drugs, had been doing drugs.
Q: Was it your understanding that Faye Resnick was doing drugs from January of 1993 through and including the time that you were living there in December of 1993?
MR. PETROCELLI: No foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know that.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did Nicole Brown Simpson suggest to you that Cora Fishman would not go out with Faye Resnick because Faye Resnick was doing drugs?
A: I think it was that Cora just didn't like Faye. It could have been that, I don't know, but they didn't get along.
Q: All right. Now, when they went out -- did you ever go out with the girls when they went out on their Thursday night outings?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole tell you that O.J. Simpson was jealous of Nicole Brown Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you -- after you moved into Rockingham, did you find out that O.J. Simpson was not jealous of Nicole Brown Simpson?
MR. PETROCELLI: Lacks foundation.
THE WITNESS: The only time I saw jealousy was on the call. That's when jealousy entered the picture for me.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you find out after you moved into Rockingham that O.J. Simpson was not jealous of Nicole Brown Simpson?
MR. PETROCELLI: No foundation.
THE WITNESS: Once again. at times yes and times no.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you testify in the Grand Jury proceeding that O.J. Simpson didn't care whether Nicole Brown Simpson was dating or not?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you think that was a sign of jealousy or lack of jealousy?
A: I didn't know. I didn't know in someone's mind.
Q: Did you testify in the preliminary hearing that O.J. Simpson didn't care whether Nicole Brown Simpson dated anybody. including Marcus Allen?
A: Yes, that was going on. I mean. There was dating on both ends. and it seemed like it was okay for them to date.
Q: And it certainly didn't bother O.J. did it?
MR. PETROCELLI: It calls for speculation, lack of foundation.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: As far as you were aware Mr. Kaelin.
A: Yes.
Q: It did or did not bother O.J. Simpson?
A: It didn't.
Q: All right. Now, did you suggest in your interview with Marc Eliot that Nicole had told you that she wanted a younger guy rather than O.J. Simpson?
MR. KELLY: Objection as to the form. The word 'suggest" specifically, Mr. Baker.
THE WiTneSs: Yes.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: And did Nicole tell you that?
A: She would say sometimes that she would like a younger guy.
Q: Now, I take it that this conversation about a younger guy occurred at some time during 1993. Correct?
A: On Gretna Green when I was living there. Yes.
Q: And your ability to communicate with Nicole about anything in her personal life ended when you moved into Rockingham. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, do you have a recollection as to when she said that she wanted a younger guy, that she didn't -- thought O.J. was too old for her?
A: Just during--the specific times, I don't know. Just she would say that.
Q: Did she say it more than once?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you have a recollection of when she said that?
A: Just during the time in Gretna Green. Probably early Gretna Green period.
Q: Did you believe during the time that you were at Gretna Green that O.J. Simpson and Nicole Brown Simpson had a good relationship between them?
MR. PETROCELLI: Vague as to time.
THE WITNESS: I didn't see much of him during the Gretna Green period.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Well, you testified in the criminal trial, that you thought that they had a good relationship. That is Nicole Brown Simpson and O.J. Simpson. did you not?
MR. PETROCELLI: Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I said that when I saw that they were in love, it was a good relationship. If they were apart--I had mentioned that if they were apart, if they couldn't reconcile, it was fine; maybe they could live separate, and when they were together and loving each other. I said it was a good relationship.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: So--
A: But I also mentioned it was stormy at times.
Q: Well was it your testimony, Mr. Kaelin, that O.J. and Nicole had a good relationship from the time you knew them?
MR. PLOTKIN: Was it his testimony when?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Good objection.
Q: Did you ever testify that Nicole and O.J. had a good relationship from the time you knew them?
A: I think I remember saying they had a good relationship.
Q: Let me read to you from what you testified to on page -- March 27, 1995, page 2067 [sic]--
MR. PETROCELLI: One second. Mr. Baker. Was this the Grand Jury?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: This is trial.
MR. PETROCELLI: Can you give it to me again?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Sure. 20267.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Line 24 through 28.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, thank you.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER: "Question By Miss Clark: You stated an opinion that the defendant and Nicole had a good relationship from the time you knew them. Do you recall that?" "Answer: Yes." Now. that was your testimony on March 27, 1995. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you wouldn't call a good relationship what you've testified here relative to the concerns that you've expressed Miss Simpson had about O.J. Simpson. True?
A: Well, what I--
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: What I just said, though, was covering it by saying when I say "good relationship," when Miss Clark asked me, it wasn't--it was one question. She went unto another one. I wanted to explain that. When they were in love, they were a great couple in love. When it was stormy, it was a bad couple. And I can't answer exactly what goes on in someone's mind, but it was this thing that if they were in love, it was great, but if they were going to be apart and -- it was a stormy relationship. It was never a set thing. It was always if they were in love, great, stay in love, but then something else would come up and it would draw them apart. And so the question that she asked me in court was a yes, and it wasn't a continued --it wasn't continued by her. Now that I can say in the deposition, that's what it was. It was very stormy.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. So it wasn't a good relationship. It was a very stormy relationship. Right?
MR. PETROCELLI: Misstates his testimony. Argumentative.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: You can answer the question.
A: When they were together and in love, it was a good relationship. When there was troubles going on. it was a bad relationship.
Q: So the troubles that you saw going on, as I understand it, was on October 25, 1993 and on Christmas of 1993. Correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: That he personally observed.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: That's it. Right?
MR. PETROCELLI: "That's it" what?
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: That's it. That's all you saw, observed yourself?
MR. BREWER: I think the witness has testified as to periods of coolness between the parties also.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: You can answer my question. He can ask you questions later.
A: Of what I saw of them together, yes.
Q: And, now, characterize the relationship. Do you think it was a good relationship, as you testified to on March 27, 1995 or a very stormy relationship, as you've testified here today?
MR. BREWER: It's argumentative.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's argumentative and it assumes that--
MR. BREWER: The question is argumentative. It's also been asked and answered three times now.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If that was the test, Mr. Simpson's depo would be over.
MR. BREWER: Maybe so. That's the objection, though.
THE WITNESS: I don't know the--
MR. PETROCELLI: Somehow I feel I've been slighted in this exchange.
THE WITNESS: I don't know the date that you had mentioned. I donÕt know any--the date.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: That's the date of the testimony I just read to you Mr. Kaelin.
A: And that I had said--
Q: You had said they had a good relationship from the time you knew them.
A: Yes.
Q: Now, do you characterize as you sit here now, their relationship as a stormy relationship or as a good relationship or anywhere in between?
MR. PLOTKIN: Or any one single adjective? Is that what you are asking him to do, define their marriage with one single adjective?
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Go ahead.
MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to object to Mr. Simpson's audible remarks on the record. Ask that he refrain from making them. Also, with respect to the question. Mr. Baker, I think it's objectionable. You've asked and answered a number of times. Argumentative.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Fine. Your objection is noted.
Q: Go ahead and answer the question.
A: Stormy.
Q: And this was the entire time that you knew them from about February of '93 when you first met Mr. Simpson through June of 1994. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, in 1994 was O.J. Simpson present in Rockingham in January of 1994, he month you moved in?
MR. PETROCELLI: Vague.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember. Maybe some of the days.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Do you remember having any conversations with him in January of 1994?
A: I can't remember January.
Q: Okay. Do you remember having any conversations or being present at any time when O.J. Simpson was present with Nicole in January of 1994?
A: As of right now, I can't remember.
Q: How about February of 1994? Were you present at any time when Nicole and O.J. were present?
MR. PETROCELLI: At Rockingham?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Anywhere.
THE WitnEss: I may have seen them present. I can't give you exact dates but I had seen them present together during that period I was at Rockingham. yes.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now, it is true, Mr. Kaelin, that you were told by Nicole that she didn't want you around Rockingham when she was present. Isn't that true?
A: She had said that, yes.
Q: And in fact when she was going to come over with the kids and to swim around the pool, she didnÕt even want you on the property. Isn't that true?
A: She had asked me just to leave--when I was leaving. She didn't ask me to leave the house. She just asked me when I was leaving OJ.'s to move out.
Q: Well, my question was: When she was over with the kids swimming with Justin and Sydney, she didn't want you on the property. Isn't that true?
A: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Calls for speculation.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: She told you she didn't want you on the property. Isn't that true?
A: To move out. Yes.
Q: And she didn't want you anywhere around the swimming pool when her kids were there and she was there. Isn't that also true?
MR. PETROCELLI: Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: It depended if I had my daughter there. My daughter would play with Cindy--Sydney.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: She didn't want you there regardless of whether your daughter was there or not. Isn't that true?
MR. PETROCELLI: Calls for speculation.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: The "she" being Nicole.
A: She wanted me to move out.
Q: And I take it then from the conversation -- Strike that. I take it from the answers that you have no recollection of any conversation with Nicole and O.J. in February of 1994. True?
A: I can't remember February of '94, if the conversation--if I had conversation or not in February of '94.
Q: And you can't remember doing anything with O.J. Simpson, that is, going to dinner or seeing him around the house or going in the main house in February of 1994. True?
A: I could have seen him in the main house in February 94.
Q: I understand you could have seen him.
A: But I can't remember--I can t remember specific dates. I know events when I was in the house. I know events of seeing O.J. and Nicole.
Q: All right. And in March do you have any specific recollection of any conversations with O.J. at all. March 1994?
A: I can't be specific on the date again.
Q: April of 1994. Do you have any recollection of him even being in the house?
A: Yes. of being in the house, I'm sure in April I've seen him in the house.
Q: All right. And do you have any recollection of how many occasions he was in the house in April of 1994?
A: I do not.
Q: Now, don't you recall that in fact O.J. Simpson was not in the house the whole month of April of 1994: he was in Puerto Rico shooting a movie?
A: The whole month? Like I said. I don't know the exact dates.
Q: Now, you didn't keep track certainly of the comings and goings of Mr. Simpson. did you?
A: I did not.
Q: You didn't know, for example, whether or not he would leave and go play golf with his buddies or not leave and go play golf with his buddies. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: You never saw him being picked up by his golfing buddies or leave with his golfing buddies to play golf on any day. Isn't that true?
A: Correct.
Q: You never saw him come back from golfing with his golfing buddies on any day in the five-plus months you lived there. Isn't that true?
A: Correct.
Q: Now, in terms of events that you say you have--
A: You know, I think one time he -- when he shot golf in Del Mar with a buddy, Cory, I think saw them leave for that.
Q: All right. What time, approximately, did you see them leave?
A: It was--they went to Del Mar. I thought it was morning they had left. Or they were -- Cory was staying in the room next to mine, I think at that time. I don't know. But they went to Del Mar--and they played golf, and Clinton was down there. I don't know the exact date. But I know they went to play golf down there.
Q: Do you have a recollection of that being in May of 1994?
A: It could have been.
Q: All right. Now. do you recall that Mr. Simpson didn't live at Rockingham in January and February of 1994: he was in his New York apartment?
A: I don't know for sure.
Q: Okay. Now, in May of 1994--did you hear early in the month of May 1994 that O.J. Simpson had broken up with Nicole and that it was over for good?
A: I believe I heard something about that.
Q: In fact, you testified that it was over early in May, and you heard that it was over early in May for good. Did you not?
A: I believe so.
Q: And you also heard and testified that you heard again in mid-May that it was over for good. Isn't that true?
A: That's possible. yes.
Q: Well, and when I say "over for good," you understand I'm referring to the relationship between Nicole and O.J. Simpson. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: All right. Now it certainly was no surprise to you on June 11th and June 12th that the relationship between Nicole and O.J. Simpson was over. Isn't that correct?
A: Well, thatÕs when I had spent more time. There was just a finality to it. It was different. I heard it from others, and this was me sitting there hearing it from that weekend. So it was more final to me. It had finality to it.
Q: Mr. Kaelin, you had tried to fix O.J. Simpson up on dates before June 11th, 1994. Had you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you think that they were still a duo, that is, Nicole and O.J., and you were fixing him up with dates?
A: They weren't--they were just not dates. I think what you're thinking. It was just someone come over in the day and play tennis. It was my friend Susan. It wasn't going to be a romantic relationship.
Q: Didn't you fix him up with some girlfriend of yours and go to some nightclub? Correct?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you call him from the Renaissance one night and ask O.J. Simpson if he would come over because you had some girl, a Ferratti or Ferrari something there?
A: Rebecca Ferrara, right, but it wasnÕt for a date.
Q: And isn't that the only time ever from the time you knew O.J. Simpson until the time of you moving out of Rockingham, that O.J. asked you if Nicole was there: When you called from the Renaissance Club?
A: Yes.
Q: And he called--he asked you that question--Strike that. You knew that the Renaissance Club was a club that Nicole Brown Simpson frequented. Isn't that true?
A: Correct. There were two different parts to it. I wasn't in the club. I was at the dinner house and there were walls, and it was closed. The club was closed, so I didn't go into the club.
Q: But he told you the only reason he was asking you whether Nicole was there was because he didn't want to run into Nicole. Isn't that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And then he declined to go to the club in any event, didn't he?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, in May of 1994 were you aware of Nicole having the flu?
A: Yes.
Q: And were you aware of O.J. Simpson taking care of her during that period of time?
A: He was taking soup there, I believe, yes.
Q: And he was making sure the kids were all right, and you knew he was going over to Nicole's house in late May of 1994 taking care of her because she had the flu. Did you not?
A: In May I believe. I'm not sure on the dates, but yes, I remember in May taking soup, Michelle making soup--
Q: All right. Now--
A: --or Gigi.
Q: When did Michelle leave and Gigi become the housekeeper on Rockingham, to your recollection?
A: During the time that I was Rockingham. So it was in that time frame of that six months. I canÕt give you the exact dates.
Q: Did you come to find out why Michelle left and Gigi became the housekeeper?
A: I believe it was over a fight with Nicole and Michelle.
Q: And who told you about that?
A: Michelle.
Q: And did she tell you that Nicole had struck her?
A: Yes.
Q: And that she wanted to go to the police and file charges?
A: Yes.
Q: And did she tell you that O.J. had suggested she not do that?
A: I don't remember exactly. I know she didn't do it.
Q: Did she tell you that she was going to leave because of Nicole Brown Simpson?
A: It could have been. Michelle was -- I-- very high-strung, so I donÕt know. It could have been from--
MR. KELLY: Objection. Ask the witness not speculate. Just answer the question if he can.
THE WITNESS: I don't know the reason why she had left. It could have been.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Well, relate to us the physical altercation where Nicole hit Michelle.
A: Well. I wasn't there. This is from Michelle?
Q: Sure.
A: I believe the dog or--and the kids or someone came in and they were making puddles, and I guess Michelle got upset and said. "I just cleaned up," and I think Nicole said, "Don't yell at my kidsÓ or "the dog." I don't know exact -- exactly, but I know that from the yelling, Nicole slapped her.
Q: In the face, did she not?
A: Yes.
Q: And how long after that physical altercation between Nicole and Michelle did Michelle leave?
MR. BREWER: Well, lacks foundation as to time. If he knows when that altercation occurred.
THE WITNESS: I don't know the date. I would guess within two months, if not a month. I don't know the date.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you have conversations with Michelle off and on during the time that she was the housekeeper at OJ.'s house?
A: Yes. off and on.
Q: And did you think you got to know her pretty well?
A: I don't know the definition of "well." I mean. she said--we talked.
Q: Do you know how long she had been OJ.'s housekeeper before she left?
A: I think at least 10 years.
Q: And did you get the impression that she was fond of O.J. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: And when she left, did you get the impression it had nothing to do with Mr. Simpson; it was because of the physical altercation she had had with Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Now. I want to jump for a moment to June 13th, 1994. Now. you were sound asleep in your bed in the early morning hours. Correct?
A: Yeah, tossing and turning.
Q: And at that point you heard a knock on the door, did you not, on your door?
A: That morning?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: At approximately what time was that?
A: Approximately, I think. 5:30 a.m.
Q: All right. And you got up and opened the door. Did you not?
A: Yes. I did.
Q: Did you normally sleep with that door locked. The one that went out to the pool?
A: Yes.
Q: And next to your room there's an office. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And if you were facing the bed, the office would be to the right or the north. True? Or the west, I guess.
A: It would be to my left. It would be going west. Correct.
MR. PETROCELLI: What do you mean, facing the bed"? If he's lying on the bed?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. no.
Q: I meant if you're standing there -- And I think he got it wrong, too. If you are standing looking at the bed from the foot of the bed, the office would be to the right or closest to the main house. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And on the left of the bed where you slept was a bathroom. Correct?
A: Looking at the foot still?
Q: Correct.
A: It would be correct. It would be left.
Q: And if you look at the area where the bed is in that room, there is a night stand on the left and the right of the bed. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And over the night stand on the left side of the bed is an air conditioner. True?
A: Correct.
Q: And that's a room air conditioner as contrasted to some central unit. True?
A: Correct.
Q: And there are two doors that have the same covering as the wall that close over that air conditioner. Isn't that true?
A: I'm pretty sure, yes.
Q: Now, in the room where you resided, you got up at approximately 5:30 and opened the door to the patio/pool area and let in the police officers who were there. True?
A: True.
Q: And who were the police officers who were there at 5:30 in the morning, approximately?
A: I believe Vannatter and Fuhrman and--
Q: Anyone else?
A: Lange and Phillips.
Q: So there were four officers then that came into your room?
A: I think only one came into my room.
Q: Who was that?
A: I think the first one was Phillips, quick; then Fuhrman.
Q: All right. Now, when Phillips came into the room, the other three officers were just outside the door? Were they on the elevated portion of the patio or below in the entrance area?
A: What I remember. I believe two were elevated and two were down.
Q: All right.
A: If it's correct in my memory, thatÕs what my memory is.
Q: The patio that comes off of the main house comes up to an area right adjacent to the area where you lived in, and let's call that the bungalow. Fair enough? Your area of living, where you and Arnelle lived, was the bungalow?
A: Correct.
Q: All right. And you go down steps to get into the door of your entrance. True?
A: Yes.
Q: And you can go either in your entrance or an entrance into the office. Can you not?
A: One door would lead right to my room.
Q: Right.
A: Then you could go make a right into the office.
Q: And then there are some stairs that go up into the main house. True?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. Now, all four officers were down--Strike that. Two officers were up on the patio area, and two officers were down in front of the door. Is that true?
A: Best of my memory. yes.
Q: And I take it the two officers that were down in front of your room were Phillips and Fuhrman. True?
A: I couldn't give you the exact--if it was those two. I'm pretty sure I remember two down and two up.
Q: All right. Were they in uniform?
A: In suits. In dress suits.
Q: All right. And when Phillips came into the room, did he show you a badge?
A: No.
Q: What did he tell you?
A: They were the police.
Q: Did they tell you they were Los Angeles Police Department?
A: I think they just said "Police." I don't know if they said "Los Angeles."
Q: All right. And what else did Phillips tell you?
A: This is when the door's open?
Q: Yes sir.
A: I think, "Who lives here? Who else lives here?" I don't know what exact dialogue happened first, but who lived here. Who I was.
Q: Had--when he was asking you these questions, was Fuhrman in the room?
A: I don't think so. I think Fuhrman came into my room after they went out and two of them knocked on Arnelle's door. Then I think Fuhrman came when they said. "Who else lives here?" and I think I pointed to her room.
Q: All right. .Now, while Phillips is asking you these questions, is it your recollection that he was alone in your room?
A: No. There were--always were two and two. I was never left alone until Fuhrman came in, but they were still outside. I was never--they were always in proximity to me.
Q: When Phillips came into your room at approximately 5:30, how many steps or how many feet did he come into your room?
A: Probably two.
Q: And you were standing there basically in the doorway talking to him. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And the doorway was open. True?
A: Yes.
Q: Did any of the officers who were up on the elevated portion of the patio come down the steps into the doorway portion?
A: I don't remember.
Q: How long did the conversation that you had with Phillips take before Vannatter came into the room?
A: I don't think Vannatter came into the room. I had Vannatter later in the house.
Q: All right, we are going to get to that.
A: Okay. I think Fuhrman--it was Phillips, and I believe they went to Arnelle's room, , two of them, and then--
Q: Which two went to Arnelle's room, if you know?
A: I think Vannatter and Lange.
Q: By that time had Fuhrman come into your room?
A: No. I was waiting for them--for Arnelle to answer the door. Then I believe after she got her door and was talking to them, Fuhrman came in and talked to me.
Q: All right. When Fuhrman came and talked to you, had Phillips remained in the room the whole time?
A: I don't think so. He could have been outside.
Q: You said they never left you alone.
A: He could have been outside the door but Fuhrman was in my room giving me a test. I believe it was Fuhrman .
Q: All right. Now. between the time that you opened the door at approximately 5:30 and the time Fuhrman had gone apparently to Arnelle's room and come back to your room, approximately how much time had elapsed?
A: I don't know if Fuhrman went to her room. I thought it was Vannatter and Lange, I said.
Q: I apologize then. So Fuhrman stayed there during that whole time?
A: I believe it was--I think Fuhrman and Lange were with me -- Fuhrman and Phillips with me, and I know at one point I believe it was Fuhrman came in my room and looked at my clothes and did his thing. I said "Go ahead."
Q: I want to take it step by step if I may.
A: Okay. It's--
Q: I understand it's almost two years ago, but I want to try to go back in your mind and try to recall. After you had this conversation with Phillips and he asked you about who lived there and you told him you lived there and Arnelle lived there -- correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And did you tell him that anybody else lived there?
A: I believe--I think I said it was OJ.'s house, and I said, "Did the plane crash?" And I thought something was -- something happened to O.J.
Q: Did you ask them what happened, if anything, that is, Phillips and who else was in earshot?
A: I think I said that. I said, "Did the plane crash?" They didn't say anything. I said, "What happened? What's this about?"
Q: Did you get an answer?
A: No.
Q: Now, with you talking to Phillips, that conversation only took approximately a minute or so?
A: I think so.
Q: And then Lange and Vannatter go down to Arnelle's door, which is about 20 feet from your door. Correct?
A: 15.20. I guess. yeah.
Q: And did you hear any of the conversation that Vannatter and Lange had with Arnelle?
A: I don't. I remember them -- it just seemed like they were knocking on her door for a while; I remember that pounding and pounding and pounding. She never was answering the door and then she got the door.
Q: And did you hear anything that she said to the police officers in front of her door?
A: I think she might have said, "What's this about?" I don't remember.
Q: All right. Now, did the two officers stay at Arnelle's door for a period of time?
A: I think so.
Q: And how long was that period of time? Just approximately. Was it ten minutes? Was it five minutes? Three minutes?
A: Maybe three to five.
Q: All right. And then did Vannatter and Lange come back to your room?
A: I believe after Fuhrman. I think everybody left together into the house.
Q: Did Vannatter and Lange come back from Arnelle's room with Arnelle?
A: I don't think so. They went to my doorway up on the top, is where I saw them next.
Q: All right. Was Arnelle with them at that time?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Did she have a robe or something on?
A: I think so.
Q: All right. Now, when the two officers were up on the patio above the entrance to your area with Arnelle, did Vannatter or Lange come down into your bedroom?
A: I don't remember. I don't remember if they did.
Q: Had Fuhrman been into your house before Lange and Vannatter came back with Arnelle from her room?
A: It's possible. I think he might have been in my room with me.
Q: Fuhrman came in and administered a drug test to you, did he not?
A: Yes.
Q: And--
A: I think with a pen. I don't know if it was pen or finger. It was my eyes, checking my eyes.
Q: Well, did he administer this test, whatever it was, before you went into the main house?
A: I think so, yes.
Q: All right. Now. approximately how tall is Fuhrman?
A: I think about six foot.
Q: And how tall are you?
A: 5-10.
Q: Did you do anything other than cooperate with Phillips and Fuhrman on the morning of June 13, 1994?
A: Did I do anything other than cooperate?
Q: Yeah. Were you cooperative?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you threaten them in any way?
A: No.
Q: Did you become hostile in tone in your conversation to them?
A: No.
Q: What is your weight?
A: About 155,160.
Q: And what's Fuhrman's approximate weight, if you know?
A: I don't know. If I guessed would I win a tie?
MR. PETROCELLI: Don't guess.
THE WITNESS: No. I don't know his weight.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: You get a free ride on the carrousel. When Fuhrman was administering this test to you, was Phillips in the room?
A: I thought they were all out on that -- on my door. I thought it already possibly they were -- one on the bottom and two on top with Arnelle at that time.
Q: Where was Phillips during the time that Vannatter and Lange were down at Arnelle's? Was he in your room the whole time?
A: No.
Q: Well, did he walk out the door?
A: I believe so.
Q: When?
A: I believe -- there is a screen in my door. He stayed at the doorway when the door was shut, while Fuhrman was doing that. The other two had gotten Arnelle and then came back after those minutes and waited up on top there, and I thought that was for them -- for everybody to go outside now.
Q: All right.
A: There was--I'm trying to get this time-wise. I mean I don't know exactly every question.
Q: All right. So Phillips had actually exited the screen door, and Fuhrman had come into your room?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And when Fuhrman came into the room, what did he say to you?
A: He asked me what I wore that night.
Q: And did you tell him?
A: And he asked me--Yes.
Q: What did you tell him you had on?
A: I showed him everything that I wore, and he --
Q: What did you in fact wear the night of the 12th?
A: I believe they were boots and jeans, and I don't know what shirt, and it was on the chair and --
Q: Chair over by the --
A: By the--the chair that would be in the room. I usually hung them on a chair. And I told him about the night something -- I believe I told him about the noise I heard.
Q: The thumps?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And this is still while you were in the room?
A: I was talking a lot. I don't know everything I said. I was very fast-paced talking. And at some point he did that thing -- I don't know if it was a pen or with a pencil -- that test, and I think that was it.
Q: All right. Did Fuhrman inspect your boots?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he go over and pick up the boots and look at the soles?
A: Yes.
Q: What kind of boots were they?
A: They were like a cheap kind of Doc Martens--not Doc Martens, but like a cheaper brand.
Q: Okay. Rubber soles?
A: I think so.
Q: Do you still have them?
A: Plastic. Rubber. I think I have one of them. When there was a move a lot of my stuff wasn't ever accounted for.
Q: Did those boots have similar pat terns to the footprints that you became aware of at Bundy?
MR. PETROCELLI: Lacks foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right. Would you preserve the boot that you presently have of that set? Did you keep that boot?
A: I think so.
Q: But will you keep that boot?
A: Sure.
Q: Till I get a subpoena on that boot.
A: Sure. I think I have -- I don't know if I have it or not, but I will find out.
Q: All right. Now, what are the height of the soles?
A: The height of the sole?
Q: Yeah. Is it a quarter--thin, quarter inch, or are they an inch thick? Do you have a recollection?
A: No, I--a sole. IÉ I don't know.
Q: What's the color of the soles? Are they light colored?
A: No. They're dark.
Q: Now, what size shoe do you wear?
A: Different. 9-1/2,10.
Q: Now, had you been drinking any alcohol the night of June 13--June 12, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Had you used any drugs on June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: When Fuhrman was giving you this test, whatever it was, was he the only person in the room at the time?
A: Yes.
Q: Describe for us the test that Fuhrman gave to you.
A: If it's a pen or a light, I don't remember, but I had to follow him, follow the finger or pen. It was one of those "watch it," and that was it.
Q: Did he tell you why he was giving you this test, that is. Fuhrman?
A: He had asked me if I had smoked pot. I think that's why.
Q: Did he ask you that and you indicated you had not?
A: I did not.
Q: Did he ask you anything else about using drugs before he administered this test?
A: I think he asked me if I had used drugs that night, if I used drugs or something. I said no.
Q: Okay. And the whole thing was just moving either his finger or his light back and forth in front of your eyes. Correct?
A: Pretty positive. Yes.
Q: And he asked you to follow the finger or the light with your eyes. Is that true?
A: I think so, yes.
Q: Was he directly in front of you when he was administering this test?
A: Yes.
Q: And did he -- Strike that. Where was he standing in the room?
A: It would be right by the doorway.
Q: And were you standing closer to the bed?
A: No.
Q: Where were you standing?
A: I was standing-- he would be standing at the foot of the bed. I would be turned that way (Indicating). So--
Q: Towards the bathroom?
A: No, it was right by the door. So almost like we are right now.
Q: Okay. How far apart were you from Fuhrman?
A: Two feet.
Q: Okay. And what did he do after he administered this test?
A: I think we all went outside.
Q: So both you and he left the room at that point in time?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that the first time you had left the room after you had been awoken at approximately 5:30 in the morning on the morning of the 13th?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you left the room, did Fuhrman leave with you?
A: I think so. I think we all left. I think we all ended up in the house together.
Q: All right. Now, do you have an estimate as to how long this took from the time that you heard the knock on the door until the time that you all believe you left the room and went into the main house?
A: I don't know. Within an hour. I don't know exactly the time we went to the house.
Q: Now, when you interviewed with Marc Eliot, you indicated to him that you left your room and went to the main house with Vannatter, and Fuhrman stayed back in your room. Do you have a recollection of that?
A: I don't.
Q: Let me ask you to read page 64. lines 3 through 14, of the transcript of your interview with Mr. Eliot.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't know what this document is, Mr. Baker. I've never seen it. It's a transcript of the Eliot tapes?
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you want a copy, we can sell it to you at the same price as the video.
MR. KELLY: Mr. Baker, can I ask for a stronger foundation--I think there were a number of days and volumes and dates and things -- in terms of where this came from?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You can ask for it, but that doesn't mean you're going to get it.
MR. KELLY: I'll hold my breath.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I wouldn't.,
MR. PLOTKIN: Did you have these transcribed, or were they given to you as a transcript?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: They were given to us as a transcript. If he wants them, I'll make them available to him.
MR. PLOTKIN: Thanks.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah, it out of the D.A.'s office.
MR. KELLY: Oh. if we have a date on that, that's all I'm asking--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: April 2, 1992. The date of the transcription was complete on April 2. The date of the interview was 12-27-94.
MR. KELLY: Thank you.
MR. PETROCELLI: Interview between Kato and Marc Eliot?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Does the--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Here, look at it. It's all date stamped. That's what it is.
MR. PETROCELLI: What I am trying to find out is, I understood there were about 16, 17 hours of such interviews. What you have in front of you, did the D.A. transcribe the entirety of that interview?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't know the answer to that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Because it looks too thin to be 16 or 17 hours. So that's my question.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Let me ask you to read page 6 starting at line 2, I believe, down the end of your answer.
(Witness complies.)
MR. PETROCELLI: It's the proposed tape interview.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah.
Q: Now, does that refresh your recollection that you went off to the main house with Vannatter, and Fuhrman stayed behind in your room? Fuhrman.
A: I don't know. I just know going into the house. I cannot say for sure right now.
Q: I take it that your recollection was better in December of '94 relative to the events of June of '94 than it is now in February of '96.
A: I can only tell you what I know right now.
Q: All right. Now, do you have a recollection that Fuhrman stayed be hind and was in your room by himself the morning of June 13th, 1994?
A: He could have been. I do not know.
MR. PETROCELLI: Don't speculate.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't know.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: In terms of your initial discussions in the room when you asked did the flight go down, did anyone ask you about the flight that Mr. Simpson was on?
A: I think so. I think I mentioned-- like I said--I was talking so fast. I' m sure I said. "Did OJ.'s plane crash?" And I think they might have said something. I said he was in Chicago and I think I mentioned that he was in some Hertz thing.
Q: Did they ask you whether or not he had gone on a private aircraft as contrasted to a scheduled flight?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you ever indicate anything other than the fact that he had gone on a scheduled flight to--
A: I might--
Q: -- Fuhrman and Vannatter and Phillips and Lange?
A: I might have said American Air Lines.
Q: All right. But you certainly didn't indicate that he had gone on anything other than a scheduled flight to Chicago, did you?
MR. PETROCELLI: There has been no testimony about a scheduled flight .
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I think I said red eye. I might have said a red eye flight. I don't know.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. And what I am getting at is: You never suggested to the--you never said or intimated to the police at all that Mr. Simpson had gone to Chicago on an unscheduled flight, did you?
A: I don't think so, no.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You want to take a break?
MR. PETROCELLI: Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:37.
(Recess.)
(Edward Medvene enters the deposition.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 10:55.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Mr. Kaelin, I take it that after you heard this pounding on the door at approximately 5:30 in the morning on the morning of June 13, 1994, you were somewhat in shock. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you heard that it was the police, you were frightened, were you not?
A: Yes.
Q: And I take it further that what you did was you wanted to explain to the police, including Mr. Phillips and Mr. Fuhrman, as much as possible what happened the evening before. Isn't that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And while you were still in your room and before you had gone into the main house, you were talking rapidly to Detectives Fuhrman and Phillips, were you not?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you--Strike that. I take it that you explained to them not only the thumps, but the interrelationship that you had had with Mr. Simpson both before and after the recital. Correct?
A: I think that's when I sat with Vannatter, and he was asking me about--he sat down, taking notes. I don t know if I said it in the initial--I was talking a lot; I can tell you that. I wasÉ
Q: Your purpose in talking a lot was not only to answer their questions, but to make sure that you weren't involved in whatever they were knocking on your door for. Isn't that true?
A: I have no idea. I was--I didn't know what it was about yet.
Q: Okay. Whatever they were knocking on your door for at 5:30 in the morning, you wanted to make sure you weren't in any criminal difficulty, and you explained everything you could to them as rapidly as you could. True?
A: Yes.
Q: I mean, part of your fear was--
MR. KELLY: Objection. I don't think he has answered--completed his answer, yet.
MR. PETROCELLI: He isn't understanding your question, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Now, again, again you're starting to talk as you did early in this case, about somebody's state of mind. I object to that. How do you know he's not understanding?
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, just from the record, he seemed really confused. It was a long question. too.
MR. KELLY: I'm sorry. Maybe more importantly, Mr. Baker, I thought he was still talking, but I might be mistaken.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Did you get an answer, David?
THE REPORTER: Yes. I did. The answer was "Yes."
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now, when you were discussing with the detectives. were you directing your--Strike that. Was it Phillips or Fuhrman who was questioning you while you were still in your room and before you went to the house?
A: They both, I think, talked to me,
But it was--the last person I talked to I believe was Fuhrman.
Q: And as I understand it, Phillips was not in the room when this follow-the-flashlight or finger test was administered. Correct?
A: I think he was at the screen door on the outside.
Q: All right. And at that point in time was Fuhrman asking you additional questions as to what had happened the preceding evening?
A: I don't remember that.
Q: Do you have a recollection of indicating to Fuhrman about the thumps that you had heard the previous evening?
A: I thought I might have told him about the thumps I heard.
Q: And you also had this conversation at some time shortly after 5:30 that Mr. Simpson was--had taken an airplane to Chicago. Correct?
A: I had said that, I believe.
Q: So as far as you knew, Mr. Fuhrman certainly knew that O.J. Simpson was not on the property after he talked to you. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And it's also true, is it not. that you explained to him that you and O.J. had discussed the thumps before O.J. got in the limousine?
A: That I had told him about the noise, just told him I heard noises last night. I don't think I mentioned OJ.'s name with the noises.
Q: All right. That was when you were talking to Mr. Vannatter when you were up in the bar in the main house?
A: I believe so.
Q: All right. What exactly did you tell Detective Fuhrman about the noises you had heard?
A: To Fuhrman?
Q: Yes, sir.
A: Well, I think it was in my room. and I was talking first of all of the plane crash, if there was a plane crash. I said. "Oh. I think it was a weird night, anyways. I heard these thumps. I don't know if it's important or not, but my picture moved." So I think I pointed to my picture, and I think he was looking around the room, and it was sort of me talking, him listening, and then I felt as if he would do the talking then, that I was-- that he wanted me to shut up, and I --he was gonna ask me questions.
Q: Now, at that time when you were alone in your room with Mr. Fuhrman, did he ask you where the thumps had come from?
A: I think I just pointed.
Q: And where did you point, Mr. Kaelin?
A: I think I pointed right to the back wall.
Q: Did you point to the back wall directly behind your bed, or did you point to the back wall over near the air conditioner?
MR. PETROCELLI: Vague as to the position. You know, we have a pretty wide bed there.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: The width of the bed is what, about five feet?
A: I guess it's about that much. I think I just pointed, though, I just said the back wall. I don't even know if I looked when I pointed. I just said, "Oh, I heard this noise back there."
Q: Do you have a recollection at the time if the doors that covered the air conditioner were open or closed?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Did you use that room air conditioner at all?
A: I don't think I ever did.
Q: Did you leave the bathroom window open consistently when you were living there?
A: I think I usually closed it.
Q: What did you use for ventilation?
A: If I was taking a shower, I'd open up that--the crank on it.
Q: On the bathroom window?
A: Yes.
Q: Did the bathroom window have a screen on it?
A: I believe so.
Q: Did the screen--was it on the inside or the outside of the window, if you know?
A: I don't know.
Q: All right. Now, you indicated to Detective Fuhrman that a picture had moved. Is that correct?
A: I think I might have said that to him.
Q: And did you indicate how many thumps there were to Detective Fuhrman?
A: I don't know if I said there were three. I think I just said the noises, I heard a noise. I don't know if "thump" was even the word.
Q: All right. Did you motion to what picture had moved?
A: I think so.
Q: What picture had moved, Mr. Kaelin?
A: The picture that would have been over the phone, where the phone was.
Q: And as you faced the bed, again looking at the bed from standing in front of it, the phone was on the right night stand, was it not?
A: Yes. it was.
Q: Now, where had those thumps come from the night before in relationship to the air conditioner as contrasted to the picture that you say may have moved?
MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague. You mean where did the thumps occur?
THE WITNESS: I thought. the thumps occurred behind my--the bed--headboard of the bed.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: In the middle? On the left? On the right? Again, using-
A: The noises were from--
Q: Again, let me just see if I can--so that we have a frame of reference, what I would like you to do is to tell us where those noises came from in your best recollection using looking at your bed from the foot of the bed facing the bed, so that the air conditioner would be on the left, the phone and night stand would be on the right, and the picture you say would be on the right, and then how far from the ceiling down and how far from the middle of the headboard left or right.
MR. PETROCELLI: I showed him a photograph--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Fine. Good.
MR. PETROCELLI:--in my examination and pointed to the spot.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Can you--is that the photograph where you--
A: Yeah. right there (Indicating).
MR. BREWER: Can you identify the exhibit number?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't have the exhibit number on here. I'm sorry.
MR. PETROCELLI: We will get it later.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: So it would be about at the height of the headboard and to the left side of the bed. Correct?
A: Yeah. It was like a beginning noise and an ending noise, it had, and they are all within a foot of each other. I would think (Indicating).
Q: And that would be to your best recollection: About five feet away from the air conditioner?
A: Yeah.
Q: All right. And the noise that you heard, were there three noises?
A: I thought in my head there were three noises, like a continued (Sounds).
MR. PETROCELLI: So the record is clear, Mr. Baker. we are now back to when he heard the noises, not talking to the police. Is that right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Correct.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: At the Grand Jury hearing you hit the table three times to demonstrate the noises that you heard. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you did it with approximately the same velocity, so it produced the same noise every time, did you not, at the Grand Jury?
A: At the Grand Jury I did, yes.
Q: And you did exactly the same thing when you testified in the criminal trial. Is that true?
A: True.
Q: And you did the same thing in the preliminary hearing, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. And so your recollection is essentially there were three noises of equal velocity, producing an equal amount of sound. Is that correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: I am unclear what you mean by "velocity."
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I agree. That's a poor question.
Q: The three sounds that you heard were approximately of the same volume. Is that true?
A: Yeah. I didn't know back then that I was able to move around. I think that's what made me--they said, ''Mr. Kaelin, go and show us with your hand. They didn't say, "Mr. Kaelin, get up." So I just listened to what they said.
Q: By the way, did you rehearse that getting up and hitting the wall, as you demonstrated here last week. with Mr. Petrocelli in the room?
MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to object to what you mean by "rehearse.''
THE WITNESS: I didn't rehearse. I just said what the noises sound like.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you show Mr. Petrocelli in the seven to ten hours that you spent with him in the last couple of weeks before your deposition, did you show him the move that you made here in the deposition room?
A: It was me saying if I--the noise that it sounded like was someone doing this. It was me saying this IS what the noise sounded like.
Q: So did you do the maneuver that you did here in the room for Mr. Petrocelli in that seven to ten hours that you spent with him?
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me. There wasn't any seven-to-ten-hour meeting. You're mischaracterizing his testimony. You may answer.
THE WITNESS: I said, "This is what it sounded like."
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: And you did that for Mr. Petrocelli in the last couple weeks when you were in the meetings with him?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. Now, was it your--is it your recollection that the sound stayed in a static location?
MR. PETROCELLI: You mean same location?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's what "static" means.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let's make sure we all know-- working with the same words.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: So that where you have drone-- drawn the "X" on whatever number this exhibit is--
MR. PETROCELLI: "Drone" was a Freudian slip.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Where you've drawn the "X" on this exhibit, that's where the noise to the best of your recollection came from. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: All three of the noises came from where the X is. Correct?
A: Within a foot, I'd say.
Q: All right. And is it your testimony then that the picture moved when you heard those noises?
A: Yes.
Q: And the picture would be about what, five to six feet away from the-- where the "X" is drawn on the exhibit?
A: I believe so. yes.
Q: So the picture moved five to six feet away. Correct?
A: Yes. it did.
Q: And was there more than one picture on the south wall of your room in June of 1994?
A: I think so. I think they're on both sides, pictures.
Q: And the picture on the left night stand didn't move at all?
A: Well, my attention went to this one because I saw and heard it move.
Q: So you were lying, as I understand it, on the bed and in a position with your back onto the bed and your head up at the pillow end. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you were talking on the telephone. True?
A: True.
Q: And the picture was over to your left and above you. Correct?
A: To my left and above me, yes.
Q: And there is a light there on the night stand that partially obliterates your vision of the picture, true, from the position you were lying in?
A: It's above the lamp, the picture.
Q: Right.
A: Yeah.
Q: So that the lamp impedes your ability to see the picture. True?
A: No, I don't think--I mean, I could see the picture if I turned-- like right there, here's the lamp (Indicating). The picture would be right here (Indicating)
Q: Okay. And is it your testimony that the lower portion of the picture moved six inches from left to right, as you faced the bed again?
A: Yeah, I can't tell you inches, but it moved. The picture moved. I believe it moved that way (Indicating).
Q: And your description would be the lower left corner of the picture, again as you're facing the bed, would move in a--down towards the floor, and the upper right-hand portion of the picture would move up towards the ceiling. Correct?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: All right. And do you have an estimate as to how many inches that moved?
A: Between five inches and ten inches.
Q: Five and what?
A: Five and ten inches it moved.
Q: All right. Now, did you straighten the picture out?
A: I don't think so.
Q: So the next morning when the police came in at 5:30 and there-in-after the picture would have been in the same position. Correct?
A: If I didn't straighten it. I don't know if I did or not, but it would have been.
Q: Did you tell ,Mr. Fuhrman on the morning of June 13th that the picture had moved this five to ten inches?
A: I don't remember.
Q: All right. Now, we're going to direct your attention, if I may, to-- again to June 13th of 1994. After you had this pencil or flashlight test with Mr. Fuhrman, then did you exit the room?
A: I believe so.
Q: Did Mr. Fuhrman exit behind you, that is, was he the last person out of your room?
A: He could have been. I don't know for sure, but he could have been.
Q: All right. And then is it your testimony that you then went into the main house?
A: Yes.
Q: Through the closest door to the main house, that is. up on the patio and the left door that we have talked about that you marked the other day?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you had set the alarm the night previous, had you not?
A: Yes.
Q: There is no pad on that door. Isn't that correct?
A: I'm pretty sure there's not.
Q: How did you people get in with- out setting off the alarm if you went in that door, as you previously testified?
MR. PETROCELLI: Lacks foundation,
THE WITNESS: Arnelle had a key: that's all I know. I didn't have anything to do with it. I just walked--followed them.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right. When you went into the house, did the alarm go off?
A: I don t think so.
Q: Have you ever heard the alarm go off in that house previous to June 13, 1994?
A: I don't know if I've heard it go off once or not.
Q: It is an audible alarm, is it not., Mr. Kaelin. as far as you're aware?
A: I don't know if I've heard it or not go I off. That's why I don't know. I'm sure it is.
Q: And in any event, your recollection is nobody went around the house and did anything with any of the pads. What happened was that all six of you, you, Arnelle and the four detectives, went in the door that would be to enter into the den area of the house. Correct?
MR. KELLY: Objection. There is misstatement of his testimony.
MR. PETROCELLI: No foundation as to what all the officers did.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I am asking a question
MR. PETROCELLI: He only can observe what he saw.
THE WITNESS: I went through that door. That's what I remember.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right. In any event, when you went through that door, was Lange, Phillips, Fuhrman and Vannatter with you and Arnelle going through that door?
A: As far as I remember, I think so.
Q: Now, you're familiar with the bar area as you go through that door and into Mr. Simpson's house. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you sat down at that bar area, did you not. after you entered the house?
A: I don't know if that was my first move or not. I don't know if we went to the kitchen or if they sat me down at the bar area, but, yeah, I was at the bar area at some point.
Q: Fuhrman was behind you, was he not, at that point?
MR. PETROCELLI: At what point?
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: When you went into the house.
A: I don't remember.
Q: Let me read to you from your testimony of March 22, 1995, page 19946.
MR. PETROCELLI: One second. Mr. Baker. 19946?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: What line?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: 1.
MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: "Question: When you entered the house, did you enter before or after Detective Fuhrman? "Answer: I think it was before. "Question: Okay. You were ahead of him? "Answer: I was ahead of him. "Question: And when you entered the house, what area did you go to? "Answer: I--when you go into that door, there is a bar area. I went into the bar area. "You went unto the bar area? "Answer: Yes. "Question: And what did you do at the bar area? "Answer: They asked me to have a seat there. "Question: Detective Fuhrman?
"Answer: I believe so.
"Question: So you sat in the bar area, did you?
"Answer: Yes.
"Question: Then what happened?
"Answer: Well, I sat at one of the stools at the bar, and then Detective Vannatter sat next to me. "Answer" -- or "Question" -- pardon me--"Okay. Now, after you sat down in the bar area, where did Detective Fuhrman go? Did he stay n with you?
"Answer: No.
"Question: Did he leave?
"Answer: He wasn't in the room with me.
"Question: Okay, Did he leave after you sat at the bar?
"Answer: Yeah, he was in the room, so he left." Now, is that your best recollection as to what happened after you got inside the door?
A: Yeah. I was in the kitchen area, too. I can't give you exact times, but I know I sat down with Vannatter at that--what that said. what you just read--
Q: All right.
A: --and that did happen. I know at one point they wanted to see if there were keys to the Bronco, so I don't know if that happened before or after,
But I did sit at the bar with Vannatter and he questioned me.
Q: All right. And at that point in time did you see where Fuhrman went
A: No.
Q: How long was Fuhrman gone, that is, from when you were seated next to Vannatter asking him questions until you next saw Vannatter.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I am going to object to what you mean by Fuhrman is "gone." You mean how long was Fuhrman out of this witness' purview?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I'll stick with my question.
MR. PETROCELLI: I object to it. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I can't answer. I don't know. If I'm sitting in the bar, I don't know who's in the I kitchen area. I don't know I didn't know their names at that time, soÉ
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: How long was it before you saw Fuhrman again after you were sitting at the bar with Vannatter?
A: I don't know. I don't know the time.
Q: Do you have any recollection at all?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Now--
A: I think I did see him again, but I don't know, I can't tell you time-wise .
Q: Now, when you sat down at the bar with Vannatter, that was the first time you had had any conversation at all with Vannatter. Is that correct?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And when you talked to Vannatter, did he I have a notepad?
A: I think so.
Q: Was there any recording device on, tape recording or video recording?
A: I don't think so, no.
Q: By the way, with your seven to ten hours of meetings with Mr. Petrocelli, were those videotaped?
A: No.
Q: There was no recording made of those whatsoever, huh?
A: No
Q: Okay. In terms of your conversation with Vannatter, tell me everything that you recall him asking you and you telling him.
A: Boy. I think we talked about if I knew Nicole, if--my events of the night, what all happened, to go over the events of the night, mentioning the noises behind the bed. I think he asked me what I did there, if I worked there on the -- Rockingham, if I knew when O.J. was coming back, I think. I think questions about O.J., the flight. I think it was -- whatever routines they--questioning, it was --I can't remember exactly what they were .
Q: Do you recall telling Vannatter that O.J Simpson had a flight. and he had left Los Angeles the night previously.
A: I believe so.
Q: And did you tell him that he had been on American Airlines and he was going from LAX to Chicago?
A: I think I did.
Q: And did you tell him he was going to play in a Hertz tournament on Monday?
A: I think I just said he had a Hertz thing going on.
Q: All right. And with regards to your telling Vannatter of the events of the night, did you tell Vannatter the events really of the day of June 12th, 1994, the conversations you had had with Mr. Simpson?
A: I don't know if I got into that detail. I don't know.
Q: All right. You certainly told him about the trip that you had with Mr. Simpson to McDonald's, did you not?
A: I think so. yeah. I think I was talking about the last--the night, what happened on that night.
Q: And he also asked you about Mr. Simpson's mood on the evening of the 12th didn't he?
A: He could have. He could have.
Q: You indicated to Mr. Vannatter that Mr. Simpson was not anxious, was not depressed, was in a usual mood, did you not?
A: I think so.
Q: And you said the only thing that you noticed about Mr. Simpson the evening of June 12th 1994 was the fact that he was tired. Isn't that true?
A: I think so, saying that he was tired. I don't know if they asked me if he had a cut on his hand or not, if I noticed cut. It could have been. I don't know for sure.
Q: Okay. Well, certainly you hadn't seen a cut on his hand, had you?
A: No.
Q: All right. And in terms of the conversation with Mr. Vannatter, do you know approximately how long that took?
A: Sitting with Vannatter, maybe 15, 20 minutes. I can't be specific exactly on the time.
Q: All right. Now. you had testified earlier this morning that after you were awoken I approximately 5: 30 on the 13th, and we went through what was accomplished before you went inside the house, you said that took somewhat-- something under an hour. Do you recall that testimony?
A: I think so.
Q: Do you have an estimate as to how long it took before you were in the main house following your being awoken at approximately 5:30?
A: I don't. I don't have an estimate.
Q: More than 30 minutes?
A: It could have been.
Q: All right.
A: I don't know.
Q: When was the next time after you were awoken at approximately 5:30 in the morning you have a clear recollection of what time it was on June 13th, 1994 in the morning?
A: Of what time it was, my recollection of my--
Q: Yes.
A: The kids came over, Sydney and Justin. It might have been like 7:15 the kids came by, I think.
Q: All right.
A: I can't be specific on time, I just know the events that happened.
Q: All right. Now, after you sat down with Detective Vannatter and you went through the events that you've related to us, what did you then do, Mr. Kaelin?
A: I think I was in the kitchen area, and I might have been with Justin and Sydney and kind of watching them, and also they asked if there were an extra set of keys to the Bronco, and I remember helping look for those.
Q: All right. So we've gone through the events in your house outside the --moving from your bungalow into the main house, the interview with Vannatter, and the next thing you remember is that at approximately 7: 15 you're in the kitchen with Justin and Sydney. True?
A: True.
Q: All right. Is there anything between 5:30 and 7:30 that you haven't told us about this morning in your deposition?
MR. KELLY: Objection to the form of the question. Vague.
THE WITNESS: That I can remember.
MR. PETROCELLI: He answered your questions.
THE WITNESS: At one point I know Arnelle got on the phone. I don't know what time that was, I thought I was in the bar area when I heard her crying.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: And was that before you had gone to the kitchen area with Justin and Sydney?
A: I think it was. I think it was.
Q: And before you were in the kitchen area, had Detective Vannatter, Phillips, Lange or Fuhrman told you that Nicole had been murdered?
A: I don't think it was until Arnelle was screaming.
Q: And were you still at the bar area when Arnelle was screaming?
A: I think so. I'm pretty sure.
Q: Now who--I take it when she started screaming, you turned around and looked at her, did you not?
A: No. She was in the kitchen. I was at the bar area still.
Q: All right. She wasn't in the--
A: I thought she came--I can't get it straight. I think she came unto the bar area and was crying, and that's when they said. I believe. that Nicole had been murdered.
Q: All right. Now, prior to that time when you walked into the main house with the detectives, had you seen where Arnelle had gone?
A: I think she went to the kitchen.
Q: And to the best of your recollection, she remained in the kitchen till she came out when she was crying?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Now, did Detective Fuhrman when he left your room take a boot or more than one boot or any of your clothing?
A: Not that I saw, no.
Q: Did any detective take any of your personal belongings when they left your room when you went to the main house?
A: I didn't see that, no.
Q: All right. Now, after your discussion with Vannatter and you went into the kitchen, did you ever again see all of the four detectives together?
A: I think I saw them all in the kitchen while they were looking for Bronco keys. I thought all four were together then.
Q: And that would have been approximately?
A: About that. I think.
Q: And did they ever find any Bronco keys?
A: Not that I'm aware of, because I --they asked me to leave the street (sic) then. They escorted me to the street then.
Q: Who is the mythical "they"? Which detective escorted you to the street?
MR. PETROCELLI: Or detectives.
THE WITNESS: I think it was detectives.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right.
A: I think it was Lange and Vannatter.
Q: Okay. Did you see Fuhrman around at that point in time?
A: Not that I remember.
Q: And when you were escorted to the street, do you know approximately what time that was?
A: Approximately I think about 7:30.
Q: Now, after you were escorted to the street, did you get back to the house at any time prior to the evening of June 13th, 1994?
A: No . When I was escorted, that was it, I'm pretty sure. I didn't come back.
Q: Now, why did they tell you they wanted you to go to the police station?
A: They didn't really say. They just told me to wait on the street and--
Q: Did they tell you that you were a suspect to the murder?
A: No.
Q: Did they ask you if you wanted to go to the police station?
A: No.
Q: Did they tell you they were going to charge you with any crime?
A: No.
Q: Did they tell you you had to go to the police station?
A: No. I think they said they were going to do an interview there. That's --I think that was it
Q: They had already done an interview of you in the bar area of Mr. Simpson's house, had they not?
A: They talked to me there.
Q: Did they indicate to you that they were going to tape-record an inter- view?
A: They didn't indicate that, no.
Q: Before you left to go to the police station, did they indicate to you that you can have a lawyer present for the interview?
A: No .
Q: Did they read you any Miranda rights or any rights that you had as a human being?
A: No.
Q: Did they tell you that you had the right to have a lawyer present before Vannatter interviewed you at the bar area?
A: No.
Q: Did Fuhrman ever indicate to you, or Phillips, while you were still in your bungalow that you had the right to have a lawyer present before you answered any questions?
A: No.
Q: Did they ever tell you you had a right to remain silent at any time?
A: No.
Q: So none of the four detectives from the time you were woken up until after you had been deposited back to Mr. Simpson -- or to Grant Cramer's house on the 13th ever told you you had a right to remain silent did they?
A: No.
Q: I guess I put the question in the wrong phraseology. You were never informed of your right to remain silent at any time by the Los Angeles Police Department on June 13th, 1994. Correct?
A: As far as I can remember, correct.
Q: All right. Now, between the time that you left your bungalow and you were escorted to the street, the time period of approximately two hours, did any police officer ask you to give them a tour of the house?
A: No.
Q: Did they point out to you any blood spots or what they purported to be blood spots on the morning of June 13th, 1994?
A: On the escort out when I was walking out, they said. "Watch out for the blood."
Q: All right. And where did they point to the blood when they escorted you out?
A: It was by the foyer, the front door entrance, walking out.
Q: All right. And how far was it from the door to the area they showed you where there were blood spots?
A: Well, what happened when I was walking, they said, "Watch the blood spots," so I went "Huh," looked down and there was drops. So there were like drops of blood.
Q: All right. And could you tell from your vantage point that there were drops of blood?
A: Well, I mean, I didn't test it or anything. I mean, it looked like it was drops of something.
Q: How many?
A: I don't know.
Q: Less than five? More than twenty?
A: Well, I saw--I don't know the number, I saw--I can't give a number. Three, four, just went "Oh. " and I took my step and I went outside.
Q: All right. Were there quite a few or were there not quite a few? Is three or four quite a few?
A: I watched my step--
MR. PETROCELLI: You don't have to characterize it. He told you--
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Pardon?
A: I was watching my step, so IÉ
Q: Okay. And that's where you saw the blood, and that was the only place you saw the blood, was in the foyer?
A: I thought there was blood, and I thought there might have been blood outside, too. I don't know exactly what point I saw the blood outside.
Q: Well, so that I'm clear on this, and I know that's not the test--
MR. PETROCELLI: We agree on that.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: --when you left the kitchen area to go out to the street and wait to be escorted to the police station--
A: Yes.
Q: --you went out the kitchen door. Correct?
A: The front door. Not the nook door, the--
Q: Right. You went out the kitchen. into the foyer--
A: Yes.
Q: --and out the front door. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: All right. And when you did that, you went out one occasion, walked out through the entrance where the benches are, onto the driveway and out to the street. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you made one trip after you left the kitchen area on 6-13, 1994. True? In other words. you didn't walk back and forth in that area at all, did you?
A: No. No. No.
Q: And the only time that the police anyone in the police department directed you to the blood was when you were exiting from the kitchen out to the foyer and then out to the entrance. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: All right. Now, after you got through the front door, did anybody tell you there was more blood spots?
A: No.
Q: Who told you there was blood spots when you were going out to the foyer?
A: Well, I was walking when they said. "Watch the blood spots." So I thought I noticed them, and then I thought I noticed one outside. too.
Q: Who is the mythical "they," though? Which detective?
A: I think it was Vannatter and Lange.
Q: Okay. You think both of them told you?
A: Well, I thought that both walked with me, but I thought only Vannatter was the one talking. I--okay.
Q: All right. And you believe you saw one blood drop in the entrance. Correct?
A: On the outside?
Q: Yes.
A: I thought so.
Q: All right. And do you have a recollection as to approximately how far out the front door that was?
A: I thought it was almost right out of the front door.
Q: Right out within six inches?
A: No. By a--two feet.
Q: All right. And was it as you -- Strike that. Did they have any markings on the blood drops in the foyer?
A: I don't know. I don't know if they did or not.
Q: Did they have any markings, like pieces of tape, to direct your attention to it, or did you just look down and see a spot that you associated with their remark that "Look out for the blood spots"?
A: I thought there was a marking outside. In my memory, I thought there was a tape.
Q: You didn't see any tapes in the foyer when you exited. Correct?
A: I don't think so, no.
Q: All right. Now, that's an area you--Strike that. The blood spot that you saw approximately two feet out the entrance. how big was it?
A: In my mind, I think it was like a nickel.
Q: Okay. And did you say anything about the blood spot that you believed you saw outside of the entrance to the police?
A: No, I didn't talk--I was "Ah, ah, ah." and then walked out.
Q: And when you walked out, you had both Vannatter and Lange with you?
A: I believe they walked me to the doorway, and then I walked outside the gate, and there was police outside.
Q: Now, where was Arnelle when you were walking outside?
A: I think in the kitchen. I don't know for sure.
Q: Now, in your discussion with Detective Vannatter, had you said anything about the whereabouts of Arnelle?
A: I think I said that "I heard footsteps when I was trying to go to bed last night, and I figured that was her that I heard."
Q: So you had associated to the police the footsteps that you heard at 1:30 with Arnelle coming home. Correct?
A: Right, but I did not know her whereabouts.
Q: And did you see who was interrogating, if anybody was interrogating, Arnelle at anytime between 5:30 and 7:30?
A: I didn't see it, no, but I imagine the other two with her.
Q: And when you say "the other two," who was with you?
A: Well, if Lange and Vannatter were walking me out, I imagine the other two were with Arnelle. I didn't see it, though.
Q: All right. Now. Vannatter as with you at the bar.
A: At the bar.
Q: And when you went into the kitchen area, was Phillips in there?
A: I don't know. When I was with Vannatter, I was at the bar, facing the bar. He was there, and I thought someone was behind me at one point and came back in and out, but I don t know who it was behind, but I think he motioned, because the stools could move (Indicating).
Q: And when you say somebody had gone "in and out," there is the door that goes down to your bungalow. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Directly in the door that would have been behind you where you were sitting at the bar.
A: No. Into the kitchen. From the kitchen, back to the kitchen.
Q: Okay. Now, did you hear anybody go in and out the door behind you during the time that you were being interviewed by Vannatter?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you indicate to Vannatter or Fuhrman about how to get unto your house through the area where the pool table is?
A: Yes.
Q: And when did you do that? Did you do that early in the evening?
A: I think when Fuhrman first came in, I think I said, "That's a door that can go into the house," I believe I told him.
Q: All right. And that door was essentially a door that could be locked from the pool room so that you couldn't get in from the office. Isn't that true?
A: Correct.
Q: And so all Fuhrman would have had to do if he'd have wanted to use that was to go by the pool table, go down the steps, unlock the door, and he's in the office. Correct?
A: Yeah. I don't know if he did or not. I don't remember.
Q: Now, the--you were then escorted down to the police station and a statement was taken. Correct?
A: I was in a room with two detectives, two different guys at a certain point. I waited and waited and waited. A statement-- they were taking notes.
Q: Did they at any time turn on a tape recorder?
A: No.
Q: Did they at any time indicate to you either of those detectives, that you were a suspect in Nicole's murder?
A: No,
Q: Now. how long were you at LAPD?
A: I was at the one I believe in Santa Monica I don t know the address, and I was there I think from about 8:00 to 4:00.
Q: That s the one on Purdue and Santa Monica Boulevard?
A: I don't know the address.
Q: You didn't go downtown. You were at the one up here, were you not?
A: Right. I didn't go downtown.
Q: Do you remember the name of the people who interviewed you?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Who was it?
A: It was Carr and Tippin.
Q: Did you have a recollection of asking them why you were there for eight hours?
A: Well, it wasn't so much they were ever around. I was in a room, and then they had questioned me, and then they would leave, and it seemed like an hour. and come back.
Q: And after you--
A: But--oh, I'm sorry. But I was at the police station even before they arrived it seemed like two or three hours that I was just in a room like this, in the conference room with other police officers.
Q: Okay. What time. approximately, did you arrive at the police station?
A: I guess between 8:00 and 9:00 a.m.
Q: All right. And when you were in a room. you say 'a room like this" with a lot of police officers--
A: Not a lot.
Q: How many?
A: Well, they had to have one with me, they said, and that was one with me, and this seemed like it was their break room. So they came in and out, but at times there was probably three and myself at the most.
Q: Who staved with you?
A: An officer.
Q: You don't know his name?
A: No. It was a female, Lisa Brickhouse. I remember the name Brickhouse .
Q: And did Lisa ask--Brickhouse ask you any questions about your where abouts or the events of the previous evening?
A: No.
Q: When was the first time you started talking to a detective about the events of the previous evening?
MR. PETROCELLI: At the police station?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: At the police station. Sorry. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: They brought me into a room. It seemed like it was two or three hours I waited, I think.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: How long did the interview go relative to the events of the previous evening when you were in the police station?
A: How did they go?
Q: How long?
A: Well, it would be broken up. They might be in the room with me for 20 minutes and then leave. and then come back an hour later and do like another 20.
Q: Did they tell you why they were breaking it up into 20 minutes?
A: Oh, no.
Q: Did you notice a change of subject matter when it would be broken up after 20 minutes?
A: No. Just questions.
Q: And as I understand your testimony, after you had given your statement to the police, they took you back to Grant Cramer's house because they told you you shouldn't go back to Rockingham. Correct?
A: They asked me if I wanted to be dropped off at a place. They thought it might be a good idea, because it was a media event. So I said "Okay."
Q: You don't have any aversion to media events, do you?
A: Meaning?
Q: Meaning why would you not want to go to a media event?
A: I stay away. You mean--you're making a joke--
MR. PETROCELLI: He's joking.
THE WITNESS: Okay, he is joking. Okay.
MR. KELLY: You know that Mr.
Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah, just hilarious.
Q: Now I want to go back to June 12th, 1994. On June 12th after Mr. Simpson got back from the recital you had a conversation with him before the events took place where you got in the Bentley and went to the McDonald's. Correct?
A: Before that, correct.
Q: And you had had conversation with O.J., earlier in the afternoon, had you not?
A: Yes.
Q: And the conversation you had with him earlier in the afternoon commenced at approximately 3:00 o'clock. Isn't that true?
A: Yeah. Like I remember certain conversations. Time, I can't pin down a time, but yeah, we had conversations that afternoon.
Q: Pre-recital you had conversations. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And those conversations, you talked about the Knicks-Rocket game that was on television?
A: I believe so, yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: This is the earlier conversation? Talking about--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Pre-recital.
THE WITNESS: Pre-recital.
MR. PETROCELLI: Pre-recital. Okay.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: And you mentioned the name, I believe, of [Name Deleted], did you not, at that point in time?
MR. PETROCELLI: [Name Deleted]?
THE WITNESS: [Name Deleted].
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: I'm sorry.
A: She came up in our conversation, yes.
Q: And you had suggested to O.J. that this would be a girl that he might be interested in because he used her brains to forward her career and not just her sex appeal, words to that effect. Isn't that true?
A: He said that, yes.
Q: And this was a friend of yours, was it not?
A: Somewhat, yes.
Q: To your knowledge O.J. Simpson didn't know even the name [Name Deleted] before you had brought it up that afternoon, June 12, 1994. Correct?
A: No. Saturday he knew.
Q: You had brought it up on Saturday in your conversation with him. Correct?
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: All right. And you thought that she was a was a pretty smart woman, did you not?
A: Somewhat.
Q: And she had a career outside of basically using her sex appeal to attract a man. Isn't that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And that's what you told Mr. Simpson. Isn't that correct?
A: No. I didn't say that.
Q: Was the conversation something that--, about she has brains in addition to being an attractive woman?
A: She was a smart girl. She told me she wanted to be an entrepreneur.
Q: She was running her own business at the time, was she not?
A: I don't know what that business was.
Q: Okay. In any event, you had that conversation on the 11th and the 12th, did you not--
A: Yes.
Q: --about Tracy Ardell?
A: [Name Deleted], yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: [Name Deleted].
MR. ROBERT BAKER: [Name Deleted]. I'll get it right Ardel is where I bought my boat.
MR. PETROCELLI: Now, when we were on the 12th pre-recital. you just mentioned the 11th as well. Is that right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's a Petrocelli technique. I think.
Q: Now -
MR. PETROCELLI: Learned it from you.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah, right.
Q: Now, in any event, did you suggest that O.J. should call [Name Deleted] on the 11th?
A: I don't know who suggested it,
But there was a call made. I think that could have been me.
Q: When was that call made to the best of your recollection?
A: On the Saturday.
Q: All right. And did her name come up again on--that is, [Name Deleted] 's name again come up after the recital?
A: After the recital?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't know if it came up after recital. I'm not sure you were talking to O.J. Simpson before you went and got in the jacuzzi, and you were talking about [Name Deleted], and he said that he had talked to her and that she was a smart person?
A: I don't remember the exact time. I know they had talked. Their conversation. I don't know exactly what was said.
Q: Well, regardless of what their conversation was, he suggested to you that he thought she was a smart woman. Isn't that correct?
A: I don't remember. He could have,
But I don't remember him saying it.
Q: All right. Isn't it true, Mr. Kaelin, that what happened was that after the recital Mr. Simpson suggested that [Name Deleted] could use her brains to further her career, not just sex appeal?
A: That's possible.
Q: And isn't it also true that it's in that conversation and the context of that conversation that Mr. Simpson discussed the fact that Nicole and her friends dressed in very tight dresses, and he didn't know what they were going to do after they became grandmas because they didn't have anything but sex appeal to woo men?
A: You're saying he said that to her or to me?
Q: The context-- let me rephrase the question. Was it not in the context of talking to [Name Deleted] and her brains that Mr. Simpson brought up the fact that Nicole and her friends used sex appeal to attract men, and he didn't know what they were going to do after they became grandmas?
A: I don't remember--I remember that statement about being grandmas, but I don't remember it involving [Name Deleted], to the best of my recollection.
Q: Now, when Mr. Simpson was talking about--Well, strike that. Was it your impression that Nicole had worn something tight to the recital?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever see the pictures of Mr. Simpson and Nicole and others at the recital?
A: Yes.
Q: And is it your collection she was in a tight dress at that point in time?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: All right. And your recollection of the evening conversation was also that the tight dress conversation occurred about Nicole's apparel at the recital. True ?
A: About the recital, it happened-- you're right. The conversation was after the recital, correct.
Q: Now, Mr. Simpson wasn't agitated or upset or irritated when he was, regardless of the reason, speaking about Nicole wearing a tight dress, was he?
A: Well, it was--there was--he was annoyed, but I thought the annoyance came more from the Sydney statement, but they were all, you know, in parallel to each other. It was-- they followed each other, the statement.
Q: So let me see if I have this correct
A: Okay.
Q: He was talking about Sydney and then tight dresses and Nicole?
A: It was about Nicole playing hard-
Ball, not letting O.J. see the kids, and it was, "She's playing hardball with me . These are my kids, too . " And then it was into the statement of, "And what are they wearing these dresses--I mean, what, are they gonna be grandmas when they wear these dresses? It's a recital. They're wearing something for a club."
Q: Well, when he asked about demeanor-- Strike that. Okay. When he asked about Sydney --or you asked--Strike that again. I'll start from scratch here. He gives me something. I'm reading. My alleged mind is going sideways. When you asked him about the recital in your conversation after the recital. can you describe his demeanor?
MR. PETROCELLI: At what point in the conversation?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: When he's asking about Sydney.
THE WITNESS: About Sydney--
MR. BREWER: You just did. It's asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Oh, it was about Sydney. I asked how Sydney was, and he had said, "Oh, she was great," and then itÉ
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: He was very happy when he was discussing Sydney, was he not?
A: Yes. The question that you asked me, was he happy with Sydney. Yes. I thought that brought him on being angry about not being able to have her.
Q: Now, overall Mr. Simpson's demeanor on the evening of the 12th was normal, was it not?
MR. PETROCELLI: It's vague and ambiguous. He has described specifically what his demeanor was in response to particular comments. I object on the grounds it's vague and ambiguous and overbroad.
MR. PLOTKIN: I'm sorry. The question was about the evening of the 12th. Do you have a particular time?
MR. PETROCELLI: He said "overall." I don't know what that means.
THE WITNESS: There were shifts.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: There were shifts in his demeanor on the evening of--
A: Right.
Q: Just let me finish.
MR. PETROCELLI: Hold on. One at a time here.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: It's your testimony that there were shifts in his demeanor after he got back on June 12th around 7:00 o'clock from the recital until he left at approximately 11:00. Correct?
A: Well, yeah. If the phone--
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me, Mr.
Baker. He didn't say anything about seeing Mr. Simpson until 11:00 o'clock.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: The tape's out. We've got to take a break.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Let's take a five-minute break.
THE VlDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. I of Volume III. The time is approximately 11:49. and we are off the record.
(At the hour of 11:49 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 12:49 p.m.)
(At the hour of 1:00 p.m., the deposition of BRIAN KAELIN was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present with the exception of Edward Medvene.)
(Defendants' Exhibit 85 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 1:00 o'clock. This is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume III.
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Mr. Kaelin, now, when you went to Mr. Simpson's office on the 14th and gave the statement where Mr. Shapiro and Mr. Taft were present--do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were asked, were you not, about Mr. Simpson's mood when he had talked about Sydney and the recital. Correct?
A: I believe so. yes.
Q: And you indicated at that time that he wasn't angry. True?
A: Yeah, I think it was the word "angry.'
Q: And that was true at the time you said it, your recollection?
A: My definition of angry was true, yes.
Q: What's your definition of angry?
MR. PETROCELLI: I am objecting as to the time reference in your question. You can answer.
THE WITNESS: I picture angry as someone going berserk and shouting and yelling.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: And so a lesser degree of being upset would be agitated, in your own vernacular?
A: Annoyed. Annoyed.
Q: And he wasn't agitated at the time you were talking about Nicole and hard-balling it with Sydney?
A: It was annoyed, not agitated.
Q: Now, in terms of your movements on the night of June 12th, as I understand it, after you and O.J. were in his den and you had been watching television -- this is post-recital. You were in his den watching television. Is that right?
A: This is on the Sunday?
Q: Sunday after the recital.
A: No. I was in the nook area.
Q: All right, in the nook area. And you were in the nook area approximately how long?
A: It was different events of that day. It wasn't a set sitting. After that statement, the Sydney and Nicole statement, I'm pretty sure it made me go into the jacuzzi. That was my prompting to go, I didn't go back in there. But TV I think was on during that period in the afternoon.
Q: All night. Now, you had asked him for the first time since you had lived there to use the jacuzzi. Isn't that
A: Yes.
Q: And was it the first time you had sat in -I the nook and watched television on June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: On the previous day, June 11th had you sat in the nook or the den when you were in the main house.
A: The den.
Q: All right. And earlier that day when you were watching the Knick-Rockets game, you were also in the den, were you not?
A: I believe I was in my room watching that game.
Q: When you talked to Mr. Simpson pre-recital between 3:00 and 5:00 o'clock on June 12th, 1995, were you in the den or were you in the nook.
A: I think all conversations were in the nook that day.
Q: All right. Now, you then went out. Left the nook. Did you go out to the driveway after you had requested to use the jacuzzi?
A: I don't remember if I went through that or through the bar area. I don t remember.
Q: In any event, you had to change clothes because you didn't have a bathing suit on?
A: No. I wore my--the shorts that I had from basketball.
Q: So you went from the nook area into the jacuzzi. Didn't go into your room?
A: I might have gone into my room,
Because I thought I got a towel.
Q: Okay. How long were you in the jacuzzi?
A: Probably a half hour from--it was becoming nightfall.
Q: When you entered the jacuzzi it was light out, and then it started into nightfall. Is that it?
A: Correct.
Q: And then you got out of the jacuzzi, and the next time you saw Mr. Simpson was when he came at the perch area, as you've called it, above your door and said, "Kato, you didn't turn off the blowers"?
A: Yeah, it was at the door. The screen door.
Q: He had come down the steps and
A: Yeah. it was down.
Q: Okay. Come down the steps and was at the screen door when you talked to him about turning off the blower?
A: Yeah. I don't know if he had come down the steps or was coming from the walkway, but he was at my doorway.
Q: All right. And, you had the dialogue where he said you hadn't turned off the blower, and you apologized, and he said, "Next time just turn off the blower." Isn't that right?
A: The jacuzzi jets, correct.
Q: And after that he went back up the stairs?
A: I--I think so. I don't know. I went back in my room.
Q: How long was it before he was back at your door asking to borrow $5?
MR. PETROCELLI: That's not what he testified to. Object on that basis.
THE WITNESS: I don't know minutes, the time-wise, but it seemed like it happened somewhat soon. I don't know the exact minutes, though.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right. But obviously you don't have a--
A: It was during a phone call.
Q: Who were you on the phone with at that time?
A: Well, I made two. I was either on the phone with Tom O'Brian or possibly Susan Wilkinsen. I don't know which one exactly.
Q: And were you also--during that period of time did you talk to Rachel Ferrara at that time?
A: I don't think I talked to Rachel yet.
Q: All right. Now. did you--was it more than a half hour elapsed between the time you saw Mr. Simpson at the door and the time Mr. Simpson came back and asked you to borrow -- asked to borrow some money from you?
A: I don't think so. I can't be specific on time, but I don't think it was.
Q: Now, at that point in time he asked you for $5. Is that correct?
A: This is the second trip?
Q: After he had asked you to remember to turn off the blowers next time, or the jets.
A: Right, on the second trip, yes, he asked me for $5.
Q: When he asked for $5, was he standing on the perch. or was he down at the front door of your bedroom?
A: I think he was at the front door of my bedroom.
Q: And you were on the phone at that time. True?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you hang up the phone and go talk to Mr. Simpson?
A: I think I got off the phone and went to the door, and then when he asked me what he wanted, I think I got on the phone and said that I'd call back. I believe.
Q: Okay. After you had given him the $5, what next occurred that you recall relative to Mr. Simpson?
A: After giving him the money?
Q: Yes.
A: I believe that's when he said he was going to get something to eat, and that's when I invited myself.
Q: Okay. So you gave him a S20 bill. Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And he said he was going to go to McDonald's or go get something to eat, whether or not he said it was McDonald's. True?
A: True.
Q: Now, you then said. "May I go along with you?" Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you didn't have any problems feeling uncomfortable about asking Mr. Simpson if you could go along with him to McDonald's, I take it. True?
A: True.
Q: And that was the first time you had ever asked him if you could go to McDonald's with him. Isn't that correct?
A: Well, to go out to get something to eat, yeah.
Q: And you had lived there a total of just a little over five months at that time, five and a half months?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. So basically in the five and a half months you lived there, every time you did something with Mr. Simpson was a first, wasn't it?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Well, it was the first time you were in his den or the first time you went to ride in the Bentley or the first time you did anything. Right?
A: No. I was in the Bentley at the Jenners' party before.
Q: Okay. So you have one previous occasion being in the Bentley. Right;
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, in terms of after you had given him the $20 and asked if you could go with him to get something to eat, did you go through the house to get to the car?
A: Yes, by the bar area.
Q: And you went through the same door that you went through the next morning to get unto the house. Correct?
A: Went through the nook door. Correct.
Q: The nook door--we're on the other end of the house. terms of after you were down here at your area where--
A: Right here (Indicating).
Q: --and you went up the stairs, did you go in the door that goes through the den?
A: Yes, this door (Indicating).
Q: Okay. And then went straight out through the nook area. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. There were lights on at that time in the downstairs?
A: I believe so. I think there was--I don't know if the bar area was lit or not. The nook might have been. I don't remember if it was lit up or not.
Q: Do you have any recollection of Mr. Simpson turning off any lights?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson have his keys with him? Did you walk straight out the nook area, out onto the driveway and get into the Bentley?
A: I believe he had his keys with him.
Q: And it was the first time you had been in the front seat of the Bentley. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: First time you had been in the right front seat of the Bentley. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you got into the Bentley. it was dark, was it not?
A: Yes.
Q: And you drove out the gate on Rockingham. True?
A: Yes.
Q: And you did not check to see if there was a Bronco to your right. You just never looked. Isn't that true?
MR. PETROCELLI: Compound.
THE WITNESS: I probably would have looked to there. I don't remember seeing a Bronco. but I would have given a check. I believe. checking traffic.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. Did you ever testify that you didn't look to see if there were any cars parked on Rockingham in any of the testimony that you've given in this case?
A: I could have. If it's in there. I could have said, "I don't remember for sure."
Q: You wouldn't have said, as you sit here now, you know because you know you may have checked traffic --you wouldn't have said. "I didn't look to see if there were any cars parked on Rockingham." That wouldn't have been your testimony, would it?
A: Right now I don't remember if it is.
MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now. had you left the house at all in your car since you had come in from playing basketball that afternoon?
A: I don't think so.
Q: And your car was a Nissan 300 ZX, or whatever it's called?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. And that was parked on the Ashford side?
A: On the Ashford side, correct.
Q: Which side of the street was it parked on? Do you have a recollection?
A: It was parked on--can I show you?
Q: Sure.
A: Right there(Indicating).
Q: Across the street from Mr. Simpson's property?
A: Yeah. It was on the street. It was
MR. PETROCELLI: Same side of the street.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was right--
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Was it parked with its right side next to Mr. Simpson's property or the property across the street?
A: It was next to Simpson's property.
Q: Which way was it facing?
A: Headlights were facing in the east direction.
Q: Down towards Bristol Circle?
A: If that's the name of the street, yes. That way (Indicating).
Q: Okay. And. approximately, can you put a ''300" on there where the car was parked?
MR. PETROCELLI: This is Exhibit 85.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes. Thank you.
(witness complies.)
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. Now, as I understand it, you could reach through and take the right gate of the Ashford gate off of the hinge, as it were, and then get in the property that way, could you not?
A: Correct.
Q: All right. Let me just go back and see if I can refresh your recollection, to page 19843 of your testimony on March 22nd, 1995.
MR. PETROCELLI: One second. What lines?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: 26 through line I of the following page.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Quote. "As you exited the Rockingham gate, did you look to see whether there were any other cars parked on the curb?"
"Answer: No, I didn't look." Does that refresh your recollection at all that you didn't even check to see if the bronco was on Rockingham?
A: It refreshes the recollection hearing it, but I'm thinking I would always look, anyways, to see if a car was coming, so I think I would have looked.
Q: The fact that you said you didn't look is irrelevant because you think you would have looked. Right?
MR. PETROCELLI: Argumentative.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Stipulated.
MR. PETROCELLI: First time ever.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now, when you entered after your basketball game the property, did you go through the gate, that is, the Ashford gate, the one that you can disengage, if you will?
A: Probably did.
Q: And you normally would go through that gate and then go down the path that goes around the north side of the house. Correct?
A: The path here (Indicating). If I was coming in?
Q: Yes.
A: Yeah. I normally would go here to my room (Indicating).
MR. PETROCELLI: Could you tell us again?
THE WITNESS: Oh would normally go through the gate and normally go right here into my room, follow the path (Indicating).
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. Why don't you just draw in red-- I've given you a red pen--just draw in red on Exhibit 85 your normal path to get to your house--to your bungalow, rather.
MR. PETROCELLI: Start it from the gate.
(Witness complies.)
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. Now, as I understand it, then, you hadn't looked at your car until sometime on the 13th after you arrived after your basketball game on the 12th?
A: I hadn't looked at my car since--
Q: I'll be happy to rephrase it.
A: Okay.
Q: You got back from the basketball game on the 12th approximately sometime in the afternoon, around 3:00?
A: I don't know the time, but. yeah. I played basketball. I don't know what time I exactly got in. I think it was later than that, but I can't be exact on time .
Q: In any event, you parked it where we have the "300" written on Exhibit 85. Correct?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Yes?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you see that car at any time between the time that you parked it there on the 12th and sometime on the 14th?
A: I mean, I think I did. I imagine, yes.
Q: Did you go out the Ashford side or the Rockingham side when the police escorted you out of Mr. Simpson's property the morning of the 13th?
A: I went out this side right here (Indicating) where the police took me out.
Q: The Ashford side?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you wait there on the Ashford side?
A: Yes, I waited right here (Indicating).
Q: Across the street from Mr. Simpson's property?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have any recollection of seeing your car there?
A: Yes. I saw my car there.
Q: All right. And from where you were when you were waiting for the police, did you have a view of the Bronco on Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: And you saw the Bronco on Rockingham at that time?
A: From this street (Indicating)?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes. I did.
MR. PETROCELLI: Would you make a notation where you were standing when you saw the Bronco on Rockingham?
THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, this street was--I was--there's a police car here (Indicating), so I could walk back and forth on this. I wasn't just standing still. I could walk back and forth.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right. Just put an arrow about the parameters of where you were walking.
(Witness complies.)
Q: Okay.
A: And there 's police cars. I was talking to them.
Q: Okay. Fair enough.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's got arrows on either end. Okay. Thank you.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now I want to go back, if I may, for a moment. You recall getting in the Bentley, and you recall exiting Rockingham. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you believe that you would have looked to see if there was traffic and looked to the right to see if the Bronco was there, see if there were any parked cars there. Correct?
A: I think I would have, yes.
Q: Okay. And then you drove down Rockingham to 26th Street. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have any problems getting across Sunset?
A: I don't think so. It goes--in trying to go over the route, it goes Sunset, and you go back down Rockingham to San Vicente, to 26th.
Q: Okay. So you turned right onto Sunset and left back onto Rockingham, or do you remember?
A: I think I have to have a map, but it goes down and then the street connects, and then you go back.
Q: Okay. And the question was: Did you have any problem getting on Sunset? Do you recall or have no recollection?
A: I have no recollection.
Q: Okay. Went over to 26th Street turned left on 26th Street and took that all the way down. Is that correct?
A: 26th Street, right, and you cross over San Vicente, correct.
Q: And down to the McDonald's on Santa Monica?
A: Yes.
Q: On Santa Monica do you go left or right off of 26th Street?
A: I believe you go left on Santa Monica, and then it's right away.
Q: And then you went through the drive-through. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you paid for the meal that was purchased?
A: I had a 20.
Q: So that was the second 20 you'd come up with on Mr. Simpson's behalf in the last half hour, 45 minutes. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. Now, he was driving, so he handed the money to the person at McDonald's?
A: Yes.
Q: And did he hand you back the change?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, he started eating his hamburger immediately upon getting it. True?
A: True.
Q: And it's your testimony that he had completely finished his hamburger before he got out of the driveway. Is that right?
A: I think it was just about finished, yes.
Q: And from the time where he got the hamburger to the driveway is about 20 feet. Right?
A: I think so. Yes
Q: And as soon as he had handed you your 20 change, he started eating the hamburger. Right?
A: I think it was the food came, and then the change came late--second. I thought he went right to the bag.
But I just remember it was, wow. he wolfed that down. Well, in my head I was thinking, because it was like immediate.
Q: Okay. And so he had finished eating before you got out on Santa Monica. Right?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Okay. And so he didn't eat anything the rest of the way home. True?
A: I don't know if he had his drink or not, if there was a drink. There might have been a drink.
Q: And did you go home by the same route that you had come?
A: I think so. If I remember. I think we did.
Q: So you went back from Santa Monica, turned right on 26th Street. crossed San Vicente and took it to Rockingham. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And took Rockingham to Sunset?
A: Took Rockingham to Sunset. correct, back to Rockingham.
Q: And then went across Sunset and Rockingham down, Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you don't have a recollection of whether you entered the Rockingham gate or the Ashford gate, do you?
MR. PETROCELLI: On the return from McDonald's?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: On the return.
THE WITNESS: On the return I believe he went through Ashford, and the car was parked back in the spot where the car would be parked in normally.
MR. PETROCELLI: What car?
THE WITNESS: The Bentley.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you tell--did you testify in the Grand Jury proceeding that you did not have a recollection of whether you entered Rockingham or Ashford?
A: Well, they asked me that and I said, "I imagine that we went through the Ashford gate. It was normal."
Q: All right. Now, the Bentley was usually parked in that cutout that we've seen on the Exhibit 85. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And there is shrubbery in next to that to cutout, is there not?
A: Yes.
Q: And that impedes or hinders the door being opened from the right side. Correct?
A: Yeah. If it gets too close, you cannot , open it--
Q: Now--
A: --if I was boxed in.
Q: Now, did Mr. Simpson let you out before he put the car in that little cutout area in the driveway?
A: No. It was parked.
Q: So you drove all the way in and parked before he let you out?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you got out, did you tell O.J., "I'm going to eat this in my room"?
A: No. I went out of the door of the Bentley and walked towards the kitchen nook area, and then I looked behind, thinking that O.J. was with me, and then I kinda motioned, no, I'll go to my room. I don't know if I said it verbally or not. I might have. I said, "Nah, I'll go to my room."
Q: Okay. Now, had you started eating your sandwich before you got to your room?
A: No. I believe I ate it in my room.
Q: Did OJ. look like he was walking back into the house?
A: No.
Q: Did you assume that O.J. went back the into the house?
A: I didn't see any movement, and I just know that I turned around, he was at the door of the car, and I walked back to my room. I didn't see movement.
Q: I want you to read an answer that you gave to Mr. Shapiro on June 14th. 1994 and--relating to your movements after you returned from the McDonald's burger trip, and tell me what in that answer is false.
A: Where am I looking at?
Q: This is the question -
MR. PETROCELLI: The question is argumentative. Where are we, Mr. Baker?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We are on page 13 of that document.
MR. PETROCELLI: 13? Okay. Thank you. I object to the question as compound and argumentative.
MR. PLOTKIN: What is it you want him to read?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: The answer where he indicates that he started to eat his sandwich and Mr. Simpson was walking towards the house.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's not on page 13.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Of the Shapiro transcript?
MR. PLOTKIN: You are looking at a different-- I believe you have a different transcript. I don't recall ever seeing this.
MR. PETROCELLI: I have the D.A. transcript. Which one is this?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It may have been--it's probably the same one. just transcribed differently, because yours is paginated in terms of the lines.
MR. PETROCELLI: Is it after the question, "Did he seem to be in a hurry?"
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, let me just fund that question, please.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Fair enough.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Bear in mind that what you're looking at may or may not be an accurate transcription. Anyway, my question is different than your question, Mr. Baker. I'm looking at the D.A. version.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Undoubtedly it's false if it came from Garcetti's office.
MR. BREWER: Well--
MR. PETROCELLI: That's one less vote for Mr. Garcetti.
MR. KELLY: Sound-bite.
MR. PETROCELLI: Bombshell.
MR. BREWER: Boy, that's outrageous.
Better be careful what you say.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Oh, I figure you'll produce it on some television show.
Q: Did you review that?
A: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Hurry, Mike.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now, did you in fact say that-- did you in fact tell Mr. Simpson, "I'm going to eat this in my room, on June 12th, 1994?
A: What I remember is I went to the door of the nook, and I just turned around. I saw he hadn't moved; he was at the door. and I just said, "Ah, I'll go to my room." That's what happened.
Q: So if you saw he hadn't moved, he certainly couldn't have been walking back to the house. Correct?
A: He wasn't walking back to the house.
Q: And when you said to Mr. Shapiro "O.J. looks like he was walking back into the house," that would be incorrect. You wouldn't have said that because it never appeared that he was walking back unto the house. Is that correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: The next sentence says. "I assumed he went back into the house."
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I understand what the next sentence says. Would you please let me ask my questions? I gave you latitude for two days.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let him read it in context.
THE WITNESS: He didn't go into the house. He was at the door of the car.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: It is incorrect that Mr. Simpson was walking towards his house after you got back from the burger run and you were going towards the nook. Correct?
A: Correct, that is incorrect.
Q: All right. And so when you testified to the Grand Jury, did you testify that it appeared he was walking towards the house?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Let me read you page 91, lines 13 to 15: Question: So it appeared he was walking towards the house?
"Answer: Yes." I am putting the transcript in front of you. And that's what you said to the Grand Jury in June of 1994, is it not. sir?
MR. PLOTKIN: May I see it?
MR. PETROCELLI: I would ask that the witness be able to read the sentences before and after as well, particularly starting at line 3.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Is this an argument, or is this an objection? You can ask him to read anything you want.
MR. PLOTKIN: Those lines don't appear. This starts at line 11.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I'll have to read it to you when IÉ
THE WITNESS: I think in the context, because he was out of his car. I can assume that he was going to go to the house until I turned around and saw that he hadn't moved, and that's what happened.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: So it never appeared to you, that is, visually appeared to you that Mr. Simpson was walking towards the house. Is that correct?
A: He wasn't walking towards the house, correct.
Q: It never visually appeared to you that Mr. Simpson was walking towards the house on the night of June 12th, after you returned from the hamburgers. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And so if you stated under penalty of perjury that it appeared that he was walking towards the house, you were misrepresenting the truth to the Grand Jury. Isn't that true?
MR. PETROCELLI: It's argumentative.
MR. KELLY: Object.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now, you saw Mr. Simpson at his car. Is that correct?
A: Yes. I did.
Q: And you walked towards the nook and then walked down the driveway, past the entrance, into the path, around to your bungalow. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you ate your--Thanks very much. You ate your--
A: Chicken
Q: What was it?
A: Chicken.
Q: Chicken sandwich?
MR. PETROCELLI: A chicken sandwich.
THE WITNESS: A grilled chicken. I believe.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now. describe the mood of .Mr. Simpson during the trip that--to and from the McDonald's hamburgers.
A: It was quiet. It was just--there was a sense of me not wanting to talk. It was a very quiet ride, and I was forcing conversation.
Q: He didn't seem upset. did he?
A: In thought.
Q: Did he seem upset?
A: No.
Q: Did he seem depressed?
A: It could be. Could be depressed. Lonely.
Q: Let me read to you what you told the Grand Jury.
MR. PETROCELLI: What page, please?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: 63.
MR. PETROCELLI: Just give us a second, Mr. Baker, to find it Okay. What line?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Line 7.
Q: "Question: During your drive to get food, can you describe how Mr. Simpson was behaving?
"Answer: Quiet. I asked him a question about the airline he was going to fly out and what time the flight was, but he was, you know-- he seemed very tired.
"Question: Did he seem upset?
"Answer: No.
"Question: Or depressed?
"No. Tired.
"Question: Tired?
"Answer: Tired. I said to him about possibly getting a nap or anything if there was time before the flight because he was very tired." Do you recall that testimony, Mr. Kaelin?
A: Yes. I do.
Q: All right. He wasn't depressed, was he?
A: No. I think what I'm saying by "tired" is no talking, and you can interpret that as however. The word I used there was "tired."
Q: All right. And--but you did answer the question depressed that he wasn't depressed. did you not?
A: In that testimony?
Q: Yes, sir.
A: I don't know how to read another person's mind if they're depressed. It was quiet and seemed in deep thought.
Q: All right. And when you responded to the Grand Jury Mr. Kaelin, you answered their questions truthfully, did you not?
A: The best I could then, yes.
Q: All right. And that was the first sworn testimony you had given following the incidents of June 12th. 1994. Isn't that true?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, in terms of your being back unto your bungalow on June 12th. 1994, you then remained there until after you had heard the thumps that you have described innumerable times. Isn't that true?
A: That's true.
Q: And when you heard those thumps, you went out of your room within a minute or two and went the , reverse of the red line that you've drawn on 85, except that you went back down the driveway and towards the garage, did you not?
A: I did.
Q: Then you went around the garage and to the south side of the property where there is a concrete pathway.
Isn't that true?
A: I didn't make it that far.
Q: Okay. Did you get to the corner of the garage?
A: I got to the corner, yes.
Q: And you looked down the area on the south side of the property. Correct?
A: I picked up the gate. There's a loose gate there, and I picked it up--
Q: Now, how far is the gate? Can you draw the first gate? Just put a line across there.
A: I believe it's right about here (Indicating).
Q: Okay. And can you put number I and a circle on that?
(Witness complies.)
Q: And that is the first gate that you encounter along that particular walkway. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Now, was that gate in a hinge at the time that you encountered it?
A: Well. I had to pick it up to move it. It's a broken gate. I picked up and moved it and leaned it against the tree.
Q: Okay. Now, normally. if the gate had not been broken, does it sit in a hinge?
A: I believe it would.
Q: All right. And so you picked it up and moved it out of the way?
A: You can just kind of scoot it just a little bit and go through. It's like that (Indicating) and go through.
Q: Chain-link fence gate?
A: Yes.
Q: And so you got around on the first trip around the garage to the south side of the house far enough to move the gate. True?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you picked the gate out of the way, leaned it against the tree on the south side of the property. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And looked back down the area towards where your bungalow would be located. True?
A: Yeah. Looked that way, yes. that direction.
Q: Now, were there any lights back there on that evening?
A: I don't think so, none at all.
Q: Did you see anything back in that area?
A: No.
Q: Had you been in that area previously?
A: No,
Q: Had you ever walked down that concrete area at all?
A: In my life living there?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And had you gone from the garage area all the way back down to where at least on Exhibit 85 Arnelle 's room is located?
A: I don't know if I ever made it as far as Arnelle's room going that way,
But I think I got to my room.
Q: Okay. And how long before this particular night had that event occurred when you had walked down the south side of the house?
A: Probably when I was getting my phone put in in the beginning.
Q: All right. Had you ever gone past the area where the air conditioner was when you were walking from a westerly direction to an easterly direction?
A: I might have, but I don't know right now, no. I just don't know.
Q: Okay. All right. Now, after you had gone around the edge of the garage into the south side of the property, you came back and saw Mr. Simpson walking towards the entrance. Is that right?
A: Say the question again.
Q: You came back around the garage onto the west side or in front of the garage and saw Mr. Simpson walking from an area where there is lawn towards the entrance to his house.
A: Now you're talking about my first trip?
Q: Yes, sir.
A: Okay. This is--at some point I saw O.J. outside. The first trip or the second trip, I don't know.
Q: Okay.
A: But I saw him outside.
Q: All right. Now, you were afraid at the time that you went out here because you had heard these noises. You had never heard them before, and you were kind of afraid. were you not?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. And at that time when you had gone on your first trip around the garage, you had noticed that there was a limo outside the gate on Ashford. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Now, in June of 1994 from outside the gate on Ashford, if you were parked either with your vehicle pointing at the gate or you had to look through the right window or, indeed, the left window, you can--there was nothing in your knowledge that would impede one's vision from the Ashford gate looking all the way through the driveway. Is that correct?
MR. BREWER: I am going to object. It's vague as to time, night- or daytime conditions.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I am just talking about something--an impediment to seeing anything between the Ashford Street and the shrubbery that's on the south side of the property.
MR. BREWER: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I guess. unless there was cars parked here.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. But like there is now, there was nothing in the gates that impeded somebody looking through the gates. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: All right. And had--in your entering the property from the Ashford side, as it wascustomary for you to do, you could certainly see the garage area of the house when you were outside the Ashford gate if it was daylight, could you not?
A: I could see the outer garage, correct.
Q: And you could see all the way over to the shrubs that were beyond the garage, could you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Allright. And did you ever come in at night and look into that same area?
A: Just at any night look at it?
Q: Yeah.
A: My eyes might, you know, look at that, but it wouldn't be everything. I'd just go to my path and just go to my room. It's not something I would look at.
Q: Where is the street light that exists?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you know if there is more than one that illuminates into Mr. Simpson's property?
A: I can't be positive on that.
Q: Okay. Now, when you came out on your first trip, you looked through the gate and saw the limo sitting there, did you not?
A: I saw a limo there, yes.
Q: Okay. Now, you were concerned, I take it, at that time with whether or not there was somebody back on the path that you had been to at least once prior. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And was there a second gate down that path?
A: Yes.
Q: And draw a line again in red and put a 2 by the second gate.
A: I think it would be about here (Indicating).
Q: Okay. Now, you didn't go to the second gate on the first trip. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: All right. You then, after you had removed the broken gate, you went back towards the driveway, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: And you went all the way out and let the limo in. Is that true?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And you pushed the button and opened one side and then hand opened the other side?
A: No. I just pushed the button. I think they both opened up.
Q: They both opened. And at that time Chachi was where?
A: Chachi was here (Indicating). and he started cutting in front.
Q: Of the vehicle?
A: Of the vehicle.
Q: Now, when you say the vehicle was outside and you opened the gate to let it in, was the front of the vehicle pointing down the driveway?
A: Pointing like it was coming in the driveway?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: And when you first saw it, was the front of the limousine in the gate area so that the rest of the limousine was sticking out on Ashford Street?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: All right. Now, when you let the driver in, you were standing over by the control box, were you not?
A: When I let him in. Then I moved when he started pulling in.
Q: Okay. Where did you move to?
A: I think I just started backing up like that (Indicating), and Chachi was walking across, and I was Like. "Dog," and then going like that (Indicating), and the dog went in the spot.
Q: And the Limousine then pulled up next to the entranceway?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And on your first trip, as I understand it. you had walked in a fairly direct path between your pathway and over to the garage area. Correct?
A: Now we're going to the first trip again?
Q: Yeah. before you let the limo in.
A: Yes. I walked like that.
Q: And from the garage to the back of the Bentley is approximately what. 20. 30 feet?
A: The garage to the back of the Bentley?
Q: From the front of the garage to the back of the Bentley.
MR. PETROCELLI: Don t speculate.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't know exact distance. but I don't think it's as much as 30 feet.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: If the little cutout area is approximately 20 feet -- well, I don't guess this is drawn to scale, is it. Okay. Strike that. okay. In any event. when you first went out. you didn't look behind the Bentley to see if there was any knapsack or anything else there, did you?
A: On my first trip?
Q: Yeah
A: No, I didn't.
Q: It wasn't of any concern to you whether there was anything behind the Bentley, was there?
A: No. I didn't see. I just walked and--
Q: By the way, you have certainly seen Mr. Simpson, even though you didn't monitor his comings and goings, you had certainly seen him swinging golf clubs before out in the front yard, had you not?
A: Only during the video I saw that.
Q: Okay. What video?
A: I think it was for Playboy, an exercise video.
Q: Okay. You had never been in the front yard and seen him swing golf clubs, ever?
A: I didn't see him that much, but I never saw that, swinging clubs.
Q: Now, did you ever testify that you saw him swinging golf clubs a lot?
MR. PETROCELLI: Where, Mr. Baker?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Anywhere.
MR. PETROCELLI: Anywhere in or outside the house?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Anywhere.
THE WITNESS: O.J. used to take -- swing a club without a club. You know, he used to do that (Indicating) Like he was always golfing. So I don't know. It was like swinging an imaginary club; I saw that a lot, but not swinging an actual club until that video. That's the first time I had actually seen him hitting balls on the property: During the video shoot. BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. Then so I am clear, your testimony is that you never saw him until the video shoot ever swing a golf club. Correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: A real golf club.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah. A golf club. That's a device that has a grip and a shaft. and it has a head on it, and it propels a golf club hopefully in a forward motion.
MR. PETROCELLI: What kind of flex?
THE WITNESS: He might have, but I can't remember right now if he ever swang it, but I know for sure in the video he was hitting a club--swinging a club.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you ever testify that you saw
MR. Simpson swinging a golf club a lot prior to June 12th, 1994?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Now, after the--Well strike that. When you had moved the gate, did you go directly from the--as you put on Exhibit 84, did you go directly from the area towards the--of the southwest corner of the garage kind of
A: No. I went right over here (Indicating). I went from the control box watching Chachi to be safe there, and then I kind of, I think, stood here (Indicating) so he knew where to stop.
Q: All right. Did you go back by the entranceway before you went to the control box, as it's drawn on this particular--
A: Yeah. I believe I walked by this way again (Indicating) and went to the control box.
Q: Is that the first time you saw the golf clubs out there?
A: I don't know for sure. The golf clubs I saw at one point. The time, I don't know. It could have been then.
Q: Were the coach lights on when you went back the first time to go allow the limo driver in?
A: I believe the coach--I believe I saw the bedroom light on and the lights were dark and when I had come back on one of my trips. the lights were on. I don't know which trip, but the lights were on at one point.
Q: Okay. So you went past the entrance the first time, and you didn't recollect seeing any golf clubs. Don't know one way or the other. Correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Golf clubs?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Clubs.
MR. PETROCELLI: Oh, you mean in the bag.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: In the bag.
THE WITNESS: I don't recollect on the first trip. no.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: And you obviously don't have any recollection of seeing any blood spot the first time you went past the entrance. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And when you came back and the golf clubs may or may not have been there, you don't have any recollection of seeing any blood spot on that
occasion, do you?
A: No.
q: Okay. And then you came back to the entranceway and picked up the golf clubs, did you not?
A: Yes, I put them in the car.
Q: And on that occasion the coach lights were on. Isn't that true?
A: I don t know exact trip. but they were on at one point. I just don't remember when.
Q: And you didn't see any blood spot when you picked up the golf clubs and put them into the limo. did you? MR. PETROCELLI: Blood spots where?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Anyplace.
THE WITNESS: I didn't see blood spots, no.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's a trick question. Mr. Baker.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right. So when you saw the golf clubs, were the golf clubs lying parallel to the benches?
A: No. I believe they were lying north to south.
Q: Okay. And kind of blocking--if you wanted to go to the entrance, they would block the entrance. would they not?
A: I believe. That is the way I remember it. I believe.
Q: And after you picked the golf clubs up and put them into the limo. you had, I take it. a conversation with the limo driver. did you hot?
A: Well. I put the golf bags in the limo. don t know if the conversation with the driver was first or me loading it. I think before I would have picked it up I would have said hi to the driver.
Because he popped the trunk. So there had to be some kind of dialogue.
Q: Okay. You don't have a clear 1 recollection as you sit here now as to what occurred first. Is that correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And I take it that you equally don t have a clear recollection if the coach lights were on when you were having this dialogue or whatever dialogue you were having with the limo driver. True?
A: I thought they might have been on by then. but I don't remember the coach lights being on the first trip.
Q: Okay. Now, you walked up and picked up the golf bag which was between the benches? Or was it closer to the front door?
A: No. it was closer here to the driveway (Indicating), I thought.
Q: Closer to the driveway? All right. You picked them up and put those golf clubs in the back of the car. Right?
A: Back of the limo, correct.
Q: And do you recall what color the golf bag was?
A: I believe it was a dark color.
Q: Do you remember whether it had a bag cover on it?
A: Yeah. I remember a Swiss Army on it.
Q: Okay. And later you put the bag into the limo, you then made another trip over to the south side of the house?
A: At one point I did. yes.
Q: Do you know how long you were out in front of the vehicle--strike that--in front of the house before you made the second trip over to the l south side of the house. the south side of the garage?
A: I can't give you minutes, no. I know it was in between that time of --by 11:15.
Q: Okay. Now. after you went from the limo back over to the south side of the garage. you then went around to within five feet of the second gate. Is that true?
A: No. I think I made it all the way up to the second gate.
Q: All right.
A: I didn't open it, though.
Q: Okay. And were there any lights on in that area of the house?
A: I don't remember any lights.
Q: Do you remember any illumination coming from the kitchen or laundry room area?
A: I don't remember that. I just don't remember.
Q: Okay. And do you know whether there was any foliage on the ground from the bushes that are adjacent to the concrete walkway?
MR. BREWER: The question is vague.
THE WITNESS: Leaves--
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you see any leaves. any berries, anything on the ground?
A: I think where I was walking there was already Like leaves and dirt, so I
Believe so.
Q: And did you look down towards the air conditioner?
A: I couldn't tell because the flashlight was so dim.
Q: Okay. And what you had was one of those little-bitty flashlights?
A: It was a pen light, but not one of those--the ones you've got to turn, but it still r wasn't as good as one of those heavy metal ones. It was a cheap plastic one, but I--I can't give you exactly how much distance I could see with the light, but it wasn't very bright .
Q: All right. Now, the--when you went down the second time, the gate was still obviously where you left it. Correct?
A: No. I probably put it back and then did it again. I think I would have done something like that.
Q: Do you have a specific recollection of doing that?
A: No. I'm just thinking I would-- the kind of thing I would have done and then going back and did it.
Q: And then removed the gate again a second time?
A: I believe so.
Q: And then put it back a second time? Yes?
A: I think I would have done that.
Q: Do you have a recollection when you put it back you just leaned it up against the area where it used to be, or did you try to put it on hinges, or do you have any recollection whatsoever?
A: I think I just leaned it against the tree.
Q: Okay. After your second trip did you then see Mr. Simpson?
A: Yeah. I had seen him outside at one point. I think it was the second trip, but I wasn't positive. I had seen him outside.
Q: And as I recall, before you put the squiggly line on Exhibit 84, you indicated that you saw him walk in an area towards the entrance which is depicted by the squiggly line. Is that correct, sir?
A: Yeah, I remember him right around here (Indicating).
Q: And you didn't talk to him.
A: No.
Q: So--
A: The conversation--
Q: Let me see if I got this straight. You were scared on the first trip, and I take it you were still frightened on the second trip. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you had heard these noises that you had never heard before, and you had lived at Mr. Simpson s house about five and a half months. True?
A: Correct.
Q: He had obviously lived there a much longer period of time. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And he was the only other person that was home that night. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Didn't say a word to him.
A: Well, he was in this mood--
Q: You didn't say word to him, did you?
MR. PETROCELLI: During what point in time?
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: At the time you saw him for the first time in the driveway as he was walking towards the entrance, did not say one word to him. did you?
A: Well, that's what I'm saying. I don't know exactly where I had seen him first. That's where I'm confused. I had seen him outside, and there was a movement that he had gone by fast, and I didn't have a second to say it to him.
I don't know where I was. I was either turning this gate on my first or second trip. I don't know. I saw the image of O.J. Simpson right there walking in a dark suit. That's what I'm saying. So it was walking by fast that I didn't--he went by -that fast, and then I had seen him again, and we started a conversation. I can't pinpoint this exact time.
Q: Now, he went by fast? Is that your testimony now, sir?
MR. PETROCELLI: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Well, walking--
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: You can answer that question.
A: Walking hurried.
Q: So you have a recollection as you sit here now that Mr. Simpson on June 12, 1994 on either the first or second trip was walking hurried, and you don't remember if you spent last week or the week before with Mr. Petrocelli. Is that it?
MR. PETROCELLI: Argumentative.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: You can answer that.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's argumentative. It'scompound. and your tone of voice is inappropriate.
THE WITNESS: I--I mean, I'm telling you what I remember right now.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: The tone objection.
THE WITNESS: I'm telling you what I remember right now.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. So when you saw Mr. Simpson for the first time after you had gone into your bungalow to eat your chicken sandwich was where you have started the squiggly line. Is that right?
A: I'm confused on that one.
MR. BREWER: Would you reread that question?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes, hold on.
(Pending question read.)
MR. PETROCELLI: Asked and answered a number of times already.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: You can answer that, sir.
A: It's--I just saw O.J. outside. My first or second trip. I'm not positive on, but he was j outside, and I had a dialogue with him at some time, yes.
Q: Well, you didn't have a dialogue with him at that time, did you?
A: Well, I had a dialogue--
Q: When he walked across the driveway.
A: I had a dialogue With him outside. Whether it was that time or not--it could have been me coming back there and saying, "Hey, O.J." I don't know the exact-- it was a dialogue outside, though.
Q: Okay. Now, you have previously testified from the time you heard the noises until the time you saw O.J. Simpson was three to five minutes. Correct?
A: I don't remember, but that's--I would have gone outside. It could have been that, yes. MR. PETROCELLI: Don't assume anything from the question. Just listen to the question and answer it.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You don't have to take legal advice from Mr. Petrocelli, I can assure you.
MR. BREWER: It's good advice.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well--
MR. PETROCELLI: There is a sense
MR. ROBERT BAKER:-- time will tell.
MR. PETROCELLI:--to your confident tone of voice, Mr. Baker, that because you say it so, it must be so.
MR. PLOTKIN: By the way, you can listen to all this dialogue with interest. You don't have to listento any of it.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's the best--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: That's the best--
MR. BREWER: Advice.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. Let me read to you what you told Mr. Shapiro on June 14th, 1994.
A: Okay. MR. PLOTKIN: Before you do that. may I ask that you do me a favor and repeat the last question. please. (Record read as follows: "Q: Okay. Now, you have previously testified from the time you heard the noises until the time you saw O.J. Simpson was three to five minutes. Correct?
A I don't remember, but that's -- I would have gone to outside. It could have been that. yes.")
MR. PETROCELLI: He didn't testify. He was interviewed.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: We've already established, I think, that all of this was true. At least he told usthat.
Q: Let me read you the question and your answeR: "Question: How much time elapsed
between hearing the noise and seeing O.J.?"
''Answer: About three minutes, three to five minutes, because that's when I ran out and saw this limo,
Because I had told her immediately that--I told her, 'I got to check out this noise.' I talked to her for maybe another minute or so, convincing myself that I was gonna go out there." Okay? Does that refresh your recollection it was about three or three to five minutes till you saw Mr. Simpson?
A: It does refresh my recollection,
But right now I just don't know times. I just don't know times.
Q: Okay. Now, when you saw O.J. and after you saw him move past you from the grassy area across the driveway--or actually in the driveway towards the entrance, how long was it before you had aconversation with him?
A: I don't know the minutes. It could have been soon. I just don't know.
Q: Okay. And then you went back to the area where the limo was and where O.J. Simpson was. Correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: The question is vague when you say "then."
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: After you saw Mr. Simpson move from the area that is depicted by the squiggly line and go back to the entrance, you then went back to the entrance yourself, did you not?
A: At some point I did, yes.
Q: And you walked in the entrance and towards the kitchen, did you not, after you had a conversation with Mr. Simpson?
A: I talked to the limo driver. I talked to O.J. outside. That's when I told him about these noises, asked for a better flashlight at some point, and that was after he had said, "You go one way. I'll go the other way." And I said, "This is the only flashlight I have. It's lousy. Do you have a better one? " Then he walked unto the house, andfollowed behind him to a point, and he went into the kitchen, correct.
Q: Okay. And when you followed him into the entranceway into the foyer and towards the kitchen door off the foyer, you didn't see any blood spots then either, did you?
A: No.
Q: Now, when Mr. Simpson told you. ''You go one way and I'll go the other way," he told you to go around the south side of the house, didn't he?
A: He was at the--
Q: Entrance.
A: -- driveway, like right here (Indicating). I was here by the limo driver (Indicating). I told him about the noise I had heard, and then he was facing me at the limo. He said. "I'll go that way. You go that way" (Indicating).
Q: And that way where he was directing you was to the south side of the property, wasn't it?
A: Correct.
Q: Where the bloody glove was ultimately found or alleged to be found.
MR. PETROCELLI: Lack of foundation.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Isn't that true?
MR. PETROCELLI: He doesn't have any knowledge of this.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Well, it was he directed you, at that time when you were both going to search the property, to go around the side of the house to where the air conditioner was by your room, did he not?
A: He said that.
Q: Okay. And he said he was going to go the other way, that is, to the north side of the property. True?
A: He said he was, yes.
Q: All right. Now, when you went into the entrance to the house and into the foyer, is it your testimony that you did not actually set foot in the kitchen?
A: I didn't go into the kitchen.
Q: Now, you testified on Thursday last, if my memory serves, that you saw Mr. Simpson at a sink in the kitchen on--when you went back in looking for a flashlight.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't believe that was his testimony.
THE WITNESS: No, I don't remember that.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you--when you went back into the house, did you continue to observe O.J. Simpson, who was in front of you?
A: He said he was getting a flashlight. I was behind, waiting for the flashlight, because I knew everything was in a rush to go, and then he never got it, and that was it.
Q: Well, did you see him in the kitchen?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you see him?
A: I was at the entranceway to the kitchen.
Q: Okay.
A: And he walked in, and he walked right in (Indicating)--
Q: When you say "walked right in" and you draw a line, did he go to the right where the stove is?
A: No. He went past the stove, he went where the clock would be, and he kinda just did a circle and went, "Oh, my God, is that the time?" and that was it.
Q: Okay. So he went past the stove?
A: Past the stove, past the refrigerator, and--you've been inside the house?
Q: Many times.
A: Okay. So it was right at the -- where the phone would be, the kitchen phone.
Q: All right.
A: Like right around that area (Indicating). straight back out in the same pathway,- Correct?
A: Yeah. I think it was U-turn. I mean, came back out.
Q: And it's your testimony he neither went by either sink?
A: No.
Q: And you had a clear view of him the entire time. Correct?
A: From the kitchen?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you say he went straight past the stove, the stove is on the right as you enter from that door, is it not?
A: Oh, no, no. no. The refrigerator. not the stove. He didn't go by the stove.
Q: you just testified he went past the stove.
A: Right. I was thinking the stove. Thestove is right in the front. Here's-- like I need a diagram, because the stove's here (Indicating). I'm thinking of the refrigerators. And he went to the kitchen phone, I said, that pathway. Stoves are here (Indicating). So he walked by like that (Indicating).
Q: Never went to a closet?
A: No.
Q: You never went in there?
A: No.
Q: Never went to a closet?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And how long did all that take?
A: Not very long at all. Just I think within 60 seconds, I believe.
Q: Okay. And did he at that time indicate to you that he was running late?
A: Yes.
Q: And then he went straight out the door, out the foyer and into the limousine. Correct?
A: No.
Q: What did you recall that he did?
A: That I recalled?
Q: Yeah.
A: I recall that he went out then, we didn't get the flashlight, and we stood at the opening of thedoor--
Q: The opening of the entrance door
A: Opening of the entrance door to the limo. So we're outside--we're on the foyer ready to go outside, and he mentioned about setting the alarm.
Q: Okay. So that I'm clear. You were right at the entrance door of the house when you were having this conversation?
A: Right about here (Indicating). at the "E."
Q: And the door is open?
A: Door is open.
Q: And both the coach lights are on?
A: I believe, yes, they were.
Q: And there is a bloody spot the size of a nickel within two feet of that entranceway that was pointed out to you by the police or that you saw the next morning that you didn't see at all that night. Is that true?
A: Yes. I believe so.
Q: Didn't see it all. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. Now, when -- and was there light illuminating from the coach lamps into the foyer at that time?
A: I don't know. I thought the foyer lights might have been on.
Q: In any event, there was good illumination at the time that you and Mr. Simpson were chatting at the entrance door. Correct'
A: I believe so.
Q: Didn't see any of the blood spots that , were shown to you the following morning by the police on the evening of June 12, 1994. Correct?
A: I did not.
Q: Okay. Now, did you and Mr. Simpson discuss the fact that you were going to continue looking to see if there was any untoward intruder or any cause for the noise thumps that you had heard, previously?
A: No.
Q: What did you discuss relative to the burglar alarm?
A: "Oh, you got to catch your flight," so he was in a hurry to catch his flight, and then that came right to the alarm.
Q: And what did he tell you about the alarm, if anything?
A: "Kato, set the alarm."
Q: Okay. And what did you say?
A: "I don't know the alarm code. I'd rather not do it."
Q: And what happened?
A: And so I thought he was setting the alarm, and I walked back outside to the driver, and then I saw that duffel bag, and I thought he had not packed it yet, so I started walking towards it.
Q: So where was this duffel bag now, Mr. Kaelin?
A: Duffel bag was right here (Indicating).
Q: Okay. Put a D where the duffel bag was.
A: There was a jetty of grass there. It was at the grass, the jetty of grass.
MR. PETROCELLI: Is that a D, Mr.--
THE WITNESS: Oh.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now, was that the first time you saw that duffel bag?
A: No.
Q: You saw that duffel bag on the second trip around?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And on the second trip around it was sitting behind the Bentley. Right?
A: Well, the Bentley's parked here (Indicating). It was at the taillight, right about here (Indicating).
Q: Okay. Put where the taillight of the Bentley is. Just draw a straight line at the back of the Bentley automobile.
A: I was drawing it.
Q: Okay. Draw the whole vehicle.
A: I remember it being kinda like this (Indicating).
Q: Okay. Well, as a matter of fact, the Bentley was all the way into the notched area, wasn't it?
A: No. Just like that (Indicating).
Q: It was just sitting right in the middle of the driveway?
MR. PETROCELLI: He has not drawn it in the middle of the driveway. It's not fair. He is not drawing--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't need your charactetizations. Just make an objection, if you will, and be quiet.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's not accurate, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, I think it's very accurate.
MR. PETROCELLI: He doesn't have the car in the middle of the driveway. It's inappropriate to say that. I object on that Basis.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, your objection is duly noted and wrong.
Q: Now, draw the rest of the--just connect the lines, Mr. Kaelin, as to where the vehicle was. Just connect that. Yeah, just this back here from the back line to the vehicle.
A: What am I drawing here?
Q: Well, you've left off--there is a gap of a line.
(witness complies.)
Q: Okay. Now, that vehicle, the Bentley, then, would have been in an area where nobody could get by it--isn't that true?--the way you've drawn
A: No. I'm making it bigger. No, it's in there (Indicating). This is why I'm drawing it like that. No. The car got through--the limo got through, but I' m showing it that I still got out here (Indicating) with the hedge room.
Q: Okay. As a matter of fact, the vehicle was totally in the cutout area that's depicted on Exhibit 85. True or untrue?
A: It wasn't a perfect fit, but it was in most of this area, yes.
Q: As a matter of fact, the back behind-- Strike that.
Behind the Bentley was an area of grass that kind of sloped down to the concrete in the driveway. Isn't that correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And so if you were standing over in an area in the front of the entrance way, you couldn't have seen anything, that is, a duffel, behind the Bentley. You'd agree with that?
A: I'm not following. I saw the duffel bag when I walked out.
Q: Okay. You walked out of the entrance.
A: Correct.
Q: The area between the driveway and the cutout where the Bentley is is raised as contrasted to the driveway, is it not?
A: I'm sorry. I'm not following this question.
Q: Okay, fine. I'll be happy to re- phrase it. It's your testimony you walked out of the entranceway, and from an area in front of the entranceway you could see a duffel bag behind the Bentley. Is that correct, sir?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Let's take a break. We've been going, and he seems to be getting a little--you seem to be getting a little fatigued. I may be presumptuous in saying that, but let's take a 15-minute break.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:06. (Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 2:27.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you see any other bags placed in the limousine besides the golf bag that you put in there, Mr. Kaelin?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you see Mr. Simpson enter the limousine with the bag?
A: I didn't.
Q: When you were standing at the entranceway, did he have any sort of piece of luggage with him?
A: I don't remember.
Q: And you didn't see any bag inside the back seat of the limo. Is that correct?
A: Don't remember seeing one.
Q: All right. And, now, this bag that you say Mr. Simpson told you that he would pick up--you recall which one I'm speaking of, the one where you put a "D" for duffel bag out there?
A: Not to pick up, he said. He didn't tell me--yeah, the one I was going to pick up.
Q: So describe that bag again for me, please, sir.
A: I thought it was a knapsack, like a college knapsack, that had that shape to it.
Q: Like a book bag?
A: I guess a book bag. It's the shape that would look like that (Indicating), and it came to a--
Q: Kind of a peak at the top?
A: Yes.
Q: Did it have a couple of straps on it, shoulder straps?
A: No, but it had the shape of the knapsack, like I just drew, and I remember like a small patch I thought of brown leather.
Q: And you have gone through the photos from the criminal trial, and you didn't see that particular piece of luggage. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Now--
MR. PLOTKIN: Excuse me. Do I assume that the photos you showed him the other day were the photos from the criminal trial?
MR. PETROCELLI: Not all those photos were of the pieces of luggage that came into evidence. Some were for the Grand Jury.
MR. PLOTKIN: I think he understood Mr. Baker's question to refer to the photos you showed him.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Yeah, the photos you showed him, you didn't see the bag that you say you saw on June 12. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: All right. And after the limo pulled out, it went out on the Rockingham side?
A: Yes.
Q: And you then went back through the house or around the house, or what did you do?
A: I opened the gate control box. I opened it for the limo from there, saw the car left; gate closed; I went back to my room.
Q: Now, as I recall your testimony a little earlier, you said that the front door was open when Mr. Simpson walked out. Correct?
A: When he walked--
Q: When you guys were standing there having your conversation, he walked out: the front door is open. Correct?
A: Correct. The one conversation where he was getting into the limo?
Q: Yes, sir, yes.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you close the front door or did he close the front door?
A: I imagine he must have closed the front door.
Q: Isn't it true that you had a conversation with him at the front door that you were going to continue searching for a prowler or whatever, and he would call you with the burglar alarm code?
MR. PETROCELLI: Compound.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: That didn't happen.
A: No.
Q: Have you ever seen Mr. Simpson set the alarm?
A: No.
Q: How long does it take you to set the alarm?
A: I've never done it before I did it that one time.-I done it.
Q: 20 seconds? The first time you had ever done it, how long did it take? 20 seconds?
A: Yeah. I pressed in the code and waited for it to turn the color and walked back to my room.
Q: So as I understand it, you sad Mr. Simpson didn't have time to put on the alarm when he was leaving, getting in the limo. Is that right?
MR. BREWER: Objection. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: It wasn't set. That's all I know.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right. And then you went back to your bungalow and called Rachel. Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Now I want to Bo back to the conversations that you had with Mr. Simpson on the 12th, and both pre- and post-recital. Okay?
A: Okay.
Q: Now, in those conversations you were talking about many subjects. were you not?
A: Yes.
Q: You were talking about the Lakers -- pardon me -- the Knick-Rocket game?
A: Yes.
Q: You were talking about girls?
A: Yes.
Q: You were talking about life in general?
A: Yes.
Q: You were talking about sex?
A: I think that might have been in the girl topic.
Q: Okay. It's all-inclusive?
A: (No audible response.)
Q: Did you feel uncomfortable talking to Mr. Simpson about any of those subjects?
A: I guess it's a degree of certain subjects. If it was about a certain girl, if it was--I mean, if it was like the dress situation, it wasn't sex, but it was about dressing sexy; that was, I guess, a little bit uncomforting.
Q: And as I understood your testimony, you felt uncomfortable when you left the Bentley to ask Mr. Simpson for a straw. Is that right?
MR. PETROCELLI: Left the Bentley.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI: No. While he was in the Bentley, he asked for the straw.
THE WITNESS: I was--for the--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No. no, he didn't ask for the straw.
MR. PETROCELLI: No. He did.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay. Let me--
THE WITNESS: I believe I asked for --I didn't want to push it, but I think I asked for my straw after I had the food in my lap.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. It made you uncomfortable?
A: Well, this, and I didn't think he wanted to talk anymore, so I was thinking, do I ask for the straw now or not, and so I did.
Q: Okay. And was it your impression that that upset him in any way?
A: Well, I don't know upset. It was just I felt uncomfortable saying, "I got to talk to you again now. I forgot to ask for the straw." but I had to bring it up. "I need the straw now."
Q: To use your term, was he annoyed?
A: It could have been a little annoyed with me.
Q: I see. You didn't have any problem living there for free. but you had a little problem asking for a straw. Is that
MR.BREWER: Objection. It's argumentative.
MR. PETROCELLI: Argumentative.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: And after you asked for the straw you asked for a typewriter, didn't you
A: If I could use a--to use the typewriter, notÉ
Q: So that didn't make you uncomfortable, to ask to use the typewriter, did it?
A: That was another part of the conversation. I was forcing conversation. and I said. "Hey, there's a typewriter in the office. Can I use that?"
Q: All right. Now, on June llth, 1994, is it your testimony that Ron Fishman was in Mr. Simpson's house?
A: I believe it was Ron Fishman. I had said there was someone that was in the nook area. I thought it was Ron Fishman.
Q: Kind of raised his hands, said. "I don't understand women," or words to that effect?
MR. PETROCELLI: He said that. Misstates his testimony.
THE WITNESS: I said that O.J. said that. They were both in a discussion.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now, it's your recollection that on June 11th Mr. Simpson had talked to you about the fact that Nicole might get--might have problems with the IRS by using his address?
A: There was conversation about O.J. doing the change of address on the IRS.
Q: And the fact that she shouldn't use his address. Correct?
A: Something to that, yes.
Q: Now, Mr. Simpson never told you he was trying to get Nicole into trouble. did he?
A: I think it was like that.
Q: Really? Didn't he tell you that he was trying to keep himself out of trouble, and if she didn't pay her taxes, she could get into trouble?
A: I think it was relating to both those things, but it would be financially it would hurt her.
Q: Well , when did Mr. Simpson tell you that the bracelet that he gave to Paula -- when that act was performed? Was that within a day or two of 6-10, 6-11?
A: I cant be exact on that date, I think it was on Saturday. though. That incident happened on Saturday in the TV den.
Q: Okay. Tell me what incident you're referring to when you say "that incident happened on Saturday," 6-11?
A: I believe it was the--it happened during the conversation of just channel surfing, and it was watching TV and certain shows that were coming on, and it was that he was going to this ball, this benefit, I think it came in that conversation. I'm not positive,
But I think it came in during that time.
Q: Well, do you recall if he told you that l3 he had given her the bracelet or that he was going to give her the bracelet?
A: I thought that he had given it to her, believe.
Q: And when did you--
A: Not positive.
Q: When did you think he had given it to her?
A: I think that it was given to her during that week, I don't know the date, I don't know the date on that.
Q: Okay. So it would be sometime in the week of June 5th to the 12th?
A: I don't know if it was before then or not. And June 6th was--I believe June 6th was an AIDS benefit. So I don't know if it happened yet or , not.
Q: Now, as soon as you went back and ate your chicken sandwich, that's when you called Tom O'Brian?
A: Yes
Q: Who is Susan Wilkinsen?
A: Who is she?
Q: Yeah.
A: She 's a friend of mine. Her and her sister are friends that live in Brentwood.
Q: Have they played tennis at OJ.'s house prior to November--or strike November--June llth, 1994?
A: No .
Q: How many times before June 12th, 1994 had you attempted to fix up O.J. Simpson?
A: You know, it was in conversation that I thought he was lonely, and I was not so much setting him up. I was just--I thought that Susan, to my opinion, was like a real quality girl.
Q: You didn't think O.J. could take care of himself in the female department?
A: No I knew he could take care of himself, but she was just a quality person.
Q: And in times that you had seen him in a social setting, he didn't have any problems with females, did he?
A: No.
And he had gorgeous women over at his house, did he not?
A: He did, yes.
Q: Now, as I understand your testimony, from the time you met O.J. Simpson until the time that you I' moved into his house. Nicole Brown Simpson was attempting to get back in his life. Is that true?
A: During those times they tried both getting back together. How many times, I don't know.
Q: She made it clear to you that she was the one that wanted to get back into his life when you had these tea conversations while you lived at Gretna Green. Isn't that true?
A: I think it was a conversation where she said that at one point she was falling in love with O.J., and then there could be another conversation where she said she didn't like O.J. So it was these different conversations that would happen like that. But definitely times when she was falling in love. and definitely times when she was fall ing out of love.
Q: Well, tell me, was--let's try to put some dates on those in loves and out of loves. Between the time that you first met O.J. in 1993 and May of 1993, was she falling in love or falling out of love?
A: That's what I'm saying: It was--I can't put a date on it. There was times when it could be a weekend that would have gone great, and then next weekend they weren't seeing each other. I couldn't I figure it out. I didn't know what went on. And believe a lot of times O.J. was out of town. I didn't know his schedule. So I didn't know.
Q: So you didn't know what the status of their relationship was. Is that correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Vague as to time.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I'm trying to mimic him.
THE WITNESS: I can't give like specific dates.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right.
A: I can't.
Q: Now, after the murders, on June 13th when you were at OJ.'s house and Howard Weitzman had called you, do you recall that?
MR. PETROCELLI: Misstates his testimony.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: All right. It does. I agree with you.
MR. PETROCELLI: He was at Grant Cramer's house.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: You were at Grant Cramer's house when Howard Weitzman called you. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And then you were subsequently at OJ.'s house that evening. True?
A: Later that evening, yes.
Q: And at that point in time you knew you were going to have an interview the following day with some lawyers for Mr. Simpson, did you not?
A: I believe so. I don't know if it was on that--was it that Monday--or I think it might have happened on Tuesday morning I found out. That date, I don't know, but I knew I was going to meet Robert Shapiro and Skip Taft.
Q: Didn't you testify that you were told to, quote, "Get your story straight because it's O.J. Simpson. on the night of the 13th?
A: No. I said Mark Slotnik had said something, and I didn't know if it was on that Monday or that Tuesday, but he had said that to me, I said.
Q: Well, when did you see Mark Slotnik on Tuesday?
MR. PETROCELLI: Slotkin.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He said -nik.
THE WITNESS: Slot- -- that's what I'm saying, I said there--I was testifying there's so many people at different times, I couldn't give an exact date. The event that happened was that he said that.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: And O.J. said, "Just tell the truth." Isn't that correct?
A: That was on the phone, yes.
Q: That's all he wanted you to do, is tell the truth. Isn't that true?
A: That's what he's said. yes.
Q: And he's neverÉSo you don't have a recollection if Mark Slotkin told you to get your facts straight because it was O.J. Simpson on Monday, the 13th, or Tuesday, the 14th of June 1994. True?
A: I can't give an exact date. I believe it was on that Tuesday, but I can't be precise.
Q: And do you have a recollection of where you saw Mark Slotkin on Tuesday, the 14th?
A: It was in the den area.
Q: Did you spend the night--Oh, you did spend the night on the 13th. did you not?
A: That was another thing I was confused on, I didn't know exactly where I spent my night, if it was there at the house or if it was Tuesday I spent it there. I was going back and forth, and that's-- I'm confused in my head exactly what nights I spent there.
Q: Well, as you sit here now, do you have a recollection that you spent the night at Mr. Simpson's house on the 13th?
A: I don't. I don't know if I went to Cramer's or not. I just don't.
Q: And do you have a recollection of coming back from Cramer's on the morning of the 14th?
A: I think so. I think I might have spent the night there.
Q: And you went from Cramer's back to Mr. Simpson's and then over to Mr. Simpson's office where the interview took place. Is that correct?
A: I went from OJ.'s to his offices from his house: I know that, and I know Arnelle and Jonah Wilson drove me.
Q: Okay. Now, it's obligatory that people give you questions to ask, so I am now taking advice from my son, which is a juxtaposition. In any event--
MR. BREWER: Here we go.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: --when you went back to set the alarm after you had gone to your bungalow, had been talking - to Rachel Ferrara and had been beeped in by Mr. Simpson did you go back around the outside of your house to the north side and to the front entrance?
A: Well, the question. I think there was a mistake there. I went from letting in the limo driver. I went back to my room. Then got beeped in and went back out.
Q: All right. And after you got beeped in and went back out, you went back out to the entrance and set the alarm at the entrance pad. Correct?
A: Correct, in front.
Q: Were there lights on when you went and set the pads, the alarm pads?
MR. BREWER: Vague as to the term "lights," which lights you're talking about.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Any lights in the house at all stairs, downstairs, coach lights?
A: I don't remember. The coach lights could have been.
Q: Okay. Did you see any blood at that time, any nickel-size spots of blood in the entranceway?
A: I did not.
Q: And if the nickel-size spot of blood was two feet away from the entrance, you would have had to go right past it to get to the pad, would you not?
A: If I was looking down, but I think I was focusing on just setting the alarm and leaving and getting back to my room.
Q: Regardless of where you were focusing, you had to go right past that to get to the pad. did you not?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: All right. Now, at no time during the evening of the 12th was O.J. Simpson sweating or perspiring or in any way looking like he was--had been exercising.
A: I don't remember that, no.
Q: And he looked well-groomed?
A: I thought so.
Q: By the way, after your jacuzzi did you go in and take a shower?
A: I thought I might have taken a shower.
Q: And during the time when you usually took, a shower, that bathroom's kind of small, so you would open the window that goes to the south side of the property.
A: I normally would crank it a little bit, yes.
Q: Okay. Now--
A: But I think also before night I used to crank it shut, and I remember it as far as when I would go to the bathroom, I would always have it shut, normally.
Q: All right. Now, do you presently have any book deals with Dove Publishing?
A: No.
Q: Has Dove Publishing forwarded you any moneys whatsoever?
A: Nothing, no.
Q: Have they provided any legal counsel for to you?
A: No.
Q: Now, you testified Thursday last that there was quite a bit of blood near the entrance to the kitchen. Do you recall that?
A: When the detectives walked me out?
Q: Yes.
A: There was drops. right.
Q: What in your vernacular, Mr. Kaelin. is "quite a bit of blood"?
A: Well, when they were walking me out, I think Vannatter had said, "Watch your step. Watch the -I blood," and I looked down and I saw droplets of blood, and I watched my step and I walked out. So I don't-- it was drops of blood. I don't know exactly--it wasn't gallons or anything, so I thought it was drops of blood.
Q: Okay. Was it quite a bit? Was it not quite a bit? Was it a lot? Was it not a lot?
A: It was enough for me to watch my step.
Q: Okay. And you don't have a recollection of the number of blood drops in the foyer. Correct?
A: I do not. no.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Anything else. Phil?
MR. KELLY: What, hedging your own questions against your son?
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you see any blood near the kitchen door, the entrance from the foyer into the kitchen door?
A: That's the foyer, yeah. That's-- the foyer had the blood going in the--as soon as you walk off from the kitchen the blood would have been right at those spots. Me walking and the bloodlets were there, and then I saw them by the door, and then I thought I saw one outside the door, and then I walked outside the Ashford gate.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay. I don't think I have anything further, do I, Phil?
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: No.
MR. BREWER: Let's take some time and talk about this a second.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: I think we both have trial subpoenas for you, Mr. Kaelin. Surprise, surprise.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: One is enough. Ask him for a witness check.
MR. PETROCELLI: Give me that subpoena back.
THE WITNESS: I never did get that.
MR. PETROCELLI: I'll have just a few questions. That's all.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:49. (Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 2:58.
EXAMINATION:
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: A few more questions, Mr. Kaelin. Mr. Baker was asking you about whether you saw blood spots at night when you were inside the foyer on the evening of the 12th. Where were your eyes looking during the brief time you went in the foyer and came out again?
A: On the Sunday?
Q: Yeah. Sunday evening on the 12th.
A: I was watching O.J. in the kitchen. That's it.
Q: Did you ever look down on the ground?
A: I did not.
Q: And the next day when the cops were escorting you--or the detectives, I guess, were escorting you outside of the foyer and out to the property, did you notice the blood spots yourself, or did they point them out to you?
A: They mentioned it.
Q: They pointed them out?
A: They said. "Watch the blood."
Q: Until they had mentioned that to you, you had not seen the blood spots. Is that right?
A: Had not seen them.
Q: And that was daylight at that time. too. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you were at Grant Cramer's house, you've testified you got a call from O.J. Simpson and Howard Weitzman. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you hadn't told them where to find you, but they somehow got a hold of you. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And they asked you what you told the police. Right?
A: I think so.
Q: And you told them. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And it was after you told them that Mr. Simpson said, "Tell the truth." Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And in that conversation they asked you to come to Rockingham that evening, didn't they?
A: I don't remember. I don't remember a hundred percent.
Q: Well, you were settled in at Grant Cramer's house. Right?
A: I was at Grant's, and I was also at another buddy, Alan's, at that time. I was going between two buddies.
Q: Mr. Weitzman asked you to come over to Rockingham to talk to O.J. Simpson, didn't he?
A: On?
Q: In this telephone call on the 13th.
A: Right, to go on Monday? That was a Monday.
Q: No. On the evening of the 13th when you were at Grant Cramer's--
A: Yes.
Q: -- didn't Weitzman ask you to come over to Rockingham?
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. And you did. Right?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And when you went to Rockingham on the evening of the 13th, Mr. Simpson had a lot of family and friends there?
A: Yes.
Q: Close friends and family?
A: Yes.
Q: Jason was there?
A: Yes.
Q: Arnelle?
A: Yes.
Q: A.C.?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Mark Slotkin?
A: I think so.
Q: And Ron Shipp was there also. Right?
A: Yes, I think so.
Q: Now, you've talked to a lot of lawyers in this case, haven't you?
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: What do you mean by "this case"? Do you mean the civil case?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You've talked to a lot of lawyers in this whole proceeding involving --whole legal proceedings involving Nicole's and Ron's death.
A: Yes.
Q: Correct?
A: Yes. I did.
Q: You spoke to Mr. Shapiro and Mr. Taft at Mr. Shapiro's office. Right?
A: No. Mr. Taft and Mr. Shapiro at OJ.'s office.
Q: Oh, at OJ.'s office. And you gave
A: I was at Shapiro's office also.
Q: And you gave them a lengthy interview?
A: Yes.
Q: And they were the first lawyers to talk to you. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, in fact .Mr. Weitzman and OJ.'s -other lawyer had contacted you, and you spoke to him. Right?
A: Yes, on the phone.
Q: And Mr. Shapiro interviewed you again at some subsequent time didn't he?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: And Mr. Simpson s investigators, Mr. Pavelick and Mr. Hostetler, they also interviewed you, didn't they?
A: Yes, they did.
Q: And the prosecutors interviewed you also?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you and I met the past couple of weeks, your lawyer was present. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And I spent considerable amount of time talking to your lawyer, didn't I?
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I object to leading the witness.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I interviewed you about the facts of the case?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you do your best to give me truthful and accurate information?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you do the same when you spoke to all the other lawyers on all the other occasions?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, Mr. Baker asked you whether you were trying to be helpful to me. Do you remember that?
A: Yes.
Q: You said "Yes." Correct?
A: I did, yes.
Q: What did you mean by that?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He meant no.
THE WITNESS: Just telling the truth.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Telling the truth. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And when Mr. Baker questioned you, you were trying to be helpful to him, too. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, Mr. Baker asked you about documents that you had read before coming to the deposition, and he mentioned the transcript of the Grand Jury proceeding, the preliminary hearing, the trial and some other proceedings as well. First of all, have you ever read any of those transcripts in their entirety?
A: Not really. I have them, but I didn't really make an effort to read them.
Q: You don't have the entire trial transcript, do you?
A: The--which one?
Q: You mean just your testimony.
A: My testimony, yes.
Q: In the trial.
A: Yes.
Q: And have you ever read it?
A: Looked at some things.
Q: Okay. And have you ever read your preliminary hearing testimony?
A: I read parts of that. too.
Q: And your Grand Jury?
A: Part of that.
Q: And did you do that recently?
A: No. I think I looked over part of the Shapiro interview at one point. I think that's about it-
Q: And I didn't show you any documents when we met. Correct?
A: Correct.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you were at Gretna Green during the incident on October 25 and you came in, you saw splinters on the ground. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you had not seen those splinters on the ground before. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Those splinters came from where?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: From the French doors at Gretna Green.
BY MR. PETROCELLI
Q: And how do you know that?
A: Because I lived there, and I saw the doors open, and it was Nicole-- and the police said, "Would you fix the doors when we're gone?" I said, Yes.
Q: And you could see an area in the door from which the broken splinters came?
A: Yes.
Q: O.J. Simpson did not report his whereabouts or activities to you, did he?
A: No.
Q: He would never tell you when he was going g out to dinner, did he?
A: No.
Q: And the only time he told you he was going out to dinner was on the evening of June 12th. Right?
A: Yes. Well, I knew he was going to that function on the 11th.
MR. PETROCELLI: I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION:
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you remain in the room when we took a break with the lawyers for the plaintiffs?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you talk to them at all I during that period of time?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you have any book deals, forget whether it's a Dove Publishing or not?
A: Nothing.
Q: Okay. And have you attempted to sell your story to any entity, whether it be NBC, CBS, ABC or anything?
A: I get offers all the time. We just turn them down.
Q: So you have not made any pitches to sell your story.
A: Nothing.
Q: Okay. Now, when you went to Grant Cramer's on the 13th and then moved essentially to Grant Cramer's the week of the 13th, did you still have clothes and belongings at Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you ultimately get those?
A: I--two buddies of mine got it, and the detectives said I couldn't get my stuff for a long time.
Q: O.J. hasn't got his clubs back yet either.
MR. KELLY: Nor is he going to.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you ever get your clothes back?
A: They got some of my stuff. It was all piled in a pile in the garage, and this is a month or so later. But they just kept putting it off. and that was--
Q: What do you mean. "they kept putting it off'?
A: Well, Bill Genego was making phone calls, because I said, "Bill, I have to get my stuff." and he'd call and they would, you kno, not return a call, then return a call and make a date and then break it.
Q: And this is the LAPD?
A: No. I think it was the--Pavelick. I think it was him that was in the garage when they picked up the stuff.
Q: Okay.
A: But William Genego would know for sure, I believe, but I think it's him. Pavelick.
Q: When you went to OJ.'s house on the evening of the 13th, was that to pick up clothes, or was that because Howard Weitzman had suggested you come there that evening?
A: Well, I remember talking to--the one I was kinda talking to at the house was a Terry Baker, and that was a relative of OJ.'s, and I was doing most of the talking to her. And I believe Howard Weitzrnan asked me to come by there, and I think that's the person I talked to on the phone, was Terry, saying, "I'm coming by," but I think I got clothes also.
Q: Let me see if I understand this. When you were at Grant Cramer's--
A: Correct.
Q: --and you got the telephone call from Howard Weitzman and O.J. was it during that telephone call that you were requested to be at OJ.'s house that night?
A: Well, I don't know if it was a command, but I thought he said. "Stop by the house." And I said. "Sure."
Q: You didn't take that that you were going to have any meeting with O.J. or anybody else when you were-- the suggestion was made to you to stop by the house. True?
A: True.
Q: All right. Now. at that point in time did you have another conversation with Terry Baker?
A: I don't know the times when I talked to Terry Baker, but I know Terry was the one I talked to I think on the phone. That was the person that I talked to. I don't know the times and how many, but I thought Terry is the one that picked up the phone.
Q: Well, then you called back to Rockingham at some point on the 13th, did you not?
A: I think. I don't know a hundred percent. I think I did.
Q: Okay. Do you have a recollection of calling before you talked to Howard Weitzman and O.J. Simpson?
A: I don't have a recollection. I don't remember.
Q: Well, didn't you come over really to get clothes and a toothbrush when you went over to Simpson's house on the night of the 13th?
A: Boy, I just don't remember.
Q: Did you take clothes and toothbrush and leave and go stay at Grant Cramer's house?
A: I might have. I don't know for sure.
Q: And you don't have any recollection of sleeping there the next night. on Tuesday, the 11th?
A: At--at--
MR. BREWER: 'There" being Rockingham?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah. thank you.
THE WITNESS: I think I might have.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you sleep there at any time after June 14th?
A: I think I might have. I think I slept-- I think I slept there the day before the wake, I think.
Q: And then there-in-after you never were there to reside again. Correct?
A: There might have been a day or two more. I just don't know. I'm not a hundred percent and-- if I still stayed a night or not.
Q: Did you ever sleep there after Mr. Simpson was arrested?
A: I think I did. When was the date?
Q: Well, did you--the 17th?
A: I don't know. I don't know for sure, I might not have.
Q: Well, after Friday of the week of the murders. In other words. the murders were Sunday, the 12 th. Friday the 17th, did you stay there at any time thereafter?
A: I don't think I did.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay, I don't have anything further.
MR. PETROCELLI: I have a couple more questions.
EXAMINATION:
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Baker questioned you earlier today about the police coming to your room early in the morning and your providing information to them. Do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: And he asked you some questions about whether you were trying to provide as much information as you could in order to clear yourself. Do you recall his questions along those lines?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when the police were questioning you on the morning of the 13th, did they tell you about murder at the moment they started questioning you?
A: No.
Q: Did they tell you that a crime had been comrnitted?
A: No.
Q: You had no knowledge why they were questioning you. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And it wasn't until you heard Arnelle, scream that you first found out that something had happpened. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And that was after you had talked to--had spoken to the police for a considerable amount of time.
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. Now, have you received proposals to sell your story for money?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you received offers from time to time?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have any estimation how much you have received in the way of offers to provide information about your knowledge of this case?
A: Well, I guess the offers, they come in I'd say in the million range.
Q: In excess of a million dollars?
A: I think so.
Q: And you've not accepted any of those offers?
A: Correct.
Q: And you have not received any of that money?
A: Correct.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, thank you.
EXAMINATION:
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now. in your entire--Strike that. How old are you?
A: 36.
Q: In your entire 34 years or so of existence on June 12th, 1994, had you ever been awoken by a beating on the door, only to open the door and have four people tell you they're LAPD detectives?
A: Has it ever happened to me?
Q: Has it ever happened to you previous to June 12th?
A: No.
Q: And they identified themselves as LAPD detectives. Right?
A: I think they said "Police."
Q: All right. In any event. that was kind of a new and frightening experience, wasn't it?
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Nothing further.
MR. PETROCELLI: We will have a stipulation?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Sure.
MR. PETROCELLI: Same, and we will send the original to Mr. Plotkin, and 30 days, sign under penalty of perjury. See you Thursday morning.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: What time would you like to begin the proceedings.
MR. BREWER: 9:30.
MR. PETROCELLI: 9:30.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Wait, wait, wait. We have to go off the video.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Brian Kaelin, Volume III. The number of videotapes used was two. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 3:12.
(ENDING TIME: 3:12 P.M.)
I DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT.
SUBSCRIBED AT _________, CALIFORNIA, THIS ___ DAY OF ___, 19 ___.
BRIAN KAELIN