SHARON RUFO,
Plaintiff,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON et al.,
Defendants
FREDRIC GOLDMAN,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al.,
Defendants
LOUIS H. BROWN, etc.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,
Defendant.
Continued deposition of BRIAN KAELIN, taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard, 10th Floor, Los Angeles, California, commencing at 9:40 a.m., on Wednesday, February 15, 1996, before David S. Coleman, CSR #4613, pursuant to Court Order.
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS FREDRIC GOLDMAN, ET AL:
MITCHELL, SILBERBERG & KNUPP
BY: DANIEL M. PETROCELLI, ESQ
PETER B. GELBLUM, ESQ.
EDWARD M. MEDVENE, ESQ.
ARTHUR GROMAN, ESQ.
11377 West Olympic Boulevard
Sixth Floor
Los Angeles, California 90064-1683
FOR THE PLAINTIFF ESTATE OF BROWN:
JOHN QUINLAN KELLY, ESQ.
330 Madison Avenue
New York, New York 10017-5090
(212) 682-1700
FOR THE PLAINTIFF SHARON RUFO
HORNBERGER & CRISWELL
BY: MICHAEL A. BREWER, ESQ.
444 South Flower Street
Third-First Floor
Los Angeles, California 90071
APPEARANCES (Continued):
FOR THE DEFENDANT ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON:
BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER
BY: ROBERT C. BAKER, ESQ.
2850 Ocean Park Boulevard
Suite 300
Santa Monica, California 90405-2936
FOR THE WITNESS
MONASCH & PLOTKIN
BY MICHAEL M. PLOTKIN, ESQ
1801 Avenue of the Stars
Los Angeles, California 90067-5890
ALSO PRESENT: FREDRIC GOLDMAN
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON
UNANSWERED QUESTIONS
(None)
INFORMATION TO BE INSERTED
(None)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Here begins videotape No. I in the deposition of Brian Kaelin. Volume II, in the consolidated cases of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs. Orenthal James Simpson in the Superior Court, State of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is SC 031947.
Today's date is Thursday, February 15th, 1996. The time is approximately 11:23. This deposition is being taken at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles. California, and was made at the request of plaintiff of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp.
The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed by Coleman, Haas, Martin & Schwab of Los Angeles, California.
Would counsel please identify yourselves and state whom you represent.
MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for Fred Goldman.
MR. MEDVENE: Edward Medvene, Fred Goldman.
MR. BREWER: Mike Brewer, Sharon Rufo.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly for Brown.
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Phil Baker, Mr. Simpson.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Bob Baker, Mr. Simpson.
MR. ARTHUR GROMAN: Arthur Groman for Mr. Goldman.
MR. PLOTKIN: Michael Plotkin for the witness Brian Kaelin.
BRIAN KAELIN, having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
EXAMINATION
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Good morning, Mr. Kaelin.
A: Good morning.
Q: When you saw Mr. Simpson on June 12 after the McDonald's trip -- okay? You with me?
A: Yes.
Q: At any time thereafter did you see him in a black robe?
A: No. .
Q: Terry cloth robe?
A: No.
Q: Any other kind of black robe?
A: No.
Q: Or a dark robe?
A: No.
Q: Any robe?
A: No.
Q: I want to go back to some of the conversations that you spoke about yesterday on the 11th and on the 12th of June. There was conversation between you and O.J. Simpson about Paula Barbieri on those two days. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: There was some on Saturday and some on Sunday. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: The conversation that you described yesterday about Ms. Barbieri being upset that she could not go to the recital, do you remember that?
A: Yes.
Q: When did that occur?
A: On Sunday.
Q: June 12.
A: June 12th, Sunday.
Q: Do you know approximately what time that occurred?
A: That was in the afternoon. It was afternoon. The noon hour.
Q: What did O.J. Simpson say to you about that?
A: That I believe that Paula wanted to invite herself to this dance recital. and O.J. wasn't comfortable to have her there because he just wanted to make it kind of a family thing, and not to have Paula there would be a better thing. So -- and if Paula was there, it would be maybe some friction.
Q: With whom?
A: Possibly the Brown family or Nicole.
Q: That's what he said?
A: Yes.
Q: What else did he say?
A: And he really didn't want her to go. He wanted to be there with just the family.
Q: And what did O.J. Simpson say to you that Paula Barbieri said on that subject?
A: That Paula probably wasn't the one to get married. She wanted kids. and O.J. already had kids, and he wasn't going to have more kids.
Q: Did -- That's something that Mr. Simpson told you that he and Paula had discussed?
A: Yes.
Q: And that there was friction about that subject?
A: Yeah. I think -- I don't know if it was 100 percent to Paula discussed it. He told it to me that he wasn't going to -- you know. that she probably wanted to get married. She did want to get married. she loved O.J. a lot and she wanted the kids, and that was him telling me that.
Q: What did O.J. say about whether he wanted to marry Paula and he wanted to have kids?
A: That she probably wasn't the one, and he didn't want to have kids.
Q: Did he tell you why he didn't want to have kids?
A: He has kids already. Why would he want more kids?
Q: Did he tell you what Paula's reaction was to Mr. Simpson's unwillingness to invite her to the dance recital?
A: That she was upset. She got upset with him that she couldn't go to the recital, and she was complaining.
Q: And O.J. Simpson told you this in this meeting -- this conversation on the 12th?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he tell you what Paula said to him when she got upset at him?
A: I think it was that she just wanted to be invited, and she was just ticked off that she couldn't go. I think it was the thing that if she could go, it would kinda show that -- if she was there, then Nicole would know then for sure that she was the woman.
Q: Did O.J. tell you whether he wanted Nicole to know for sure that Paula was the woman?
A: No.
Q: Did he discuss that with you?
A: No.
Q: Did he discuss his feelings towards Nicole in that conversation?
A: The conversation was just about having a family. It came up once or twice about having a white picket fence and having the kids run around, to be a happy family. That conversation came up.
Q: You're telling me now about something that came up in the conversation in the afternoon of June 12th?
A: Yes.
Q: In that conversation did he express to you his feelings toward Nicole?
A: No
Q: Did he say that he wanted Nicole to be that one who would be with him at the house with the picket fence and the kids?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, I object on two grounds: Number one, there is no foundation for that from this witness' testimony --
BY MR. PETROCELLI: You can answer.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: -- and, number two. there is -- he's never talked that O.J. wanted a white picket fence.
BY MR. PETROCELLI: You can answer.
A: Yeah, that he said that he wanted a white picket fence, the family. There was a futility to saying the relationship was over between he and Nicole.
Q: O.J. Simpson told you that the relationship between Nicole and him was over?
A: That it was over.
Q: And he said it was -- when you said "finality," you mean over once and for all?
A: That it was going to be over, and that's somewhat why I had the Tracy Adell call and all that because I thought I was being a good guy, and also like Susan Wilkinsen. She was like a Christian girl, and she was -- it was just bringing my friends in because it was kinda like be okay to do that.
Q: Did O.J. tell you that the relationship with Nicole was over for good?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he tell you how it came to be that that relationship had ended for good?
A: I don't -- it was -- it had to do with the argument with -- that IRS thing, that he was putting pressure on her with the IRS.
Q: Tell me what he said to you about that.
A: I don't know exactly how the IRS thing was working, but it was the change of address, that somehow it was going to screw up Nicole and she was going to get in trouble with the IRS.
Q: O.J. Simpson told you that?
A: Yes.
Q: And he told you that he would take some action to get Nicole in trouble with the IRS?
A: To report it to the IRS.
Q: That's what he said?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You know, the reason I keep asking you, "That's what he said.'" is because I want to know who the speaker is, who's doing the talking.
A: Okay. I should say who said it.
Q: If you could, it would be helpful. I know Mr. Baker would appreciate that. too. Now, you had a conversation with O.J. Simpson on the same day after the recital. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you said you played some basketball when Mr. Simpson went off to the recital?
A: Yeah, at some point in the afternoon I played basketball in Santa Monica, like 14th Street school and --
Q: I -- I'm sorry.
A: -- and at some point the recital was over with, and I was in the kitchen nook area with O.J.
Q: At some point.
A: At some point. And he said he --
Q: What -- hold on. Let me stop you right there. I don't want to get into the conversation quite yet. When you left Mr. Simpson after the first conversation that you just decided, you said you went off to play basketball. Right?
A: At some point, yes.
Q: I think you said yesterday you also went to Vons and had a California roll. Right?
A: A carton, right.
Q: Excuse me?
A: A carton of those. It was not fresh.
Q: A carton. You ate them in the car?
A: Ate them in the car.
Q: While sitting in the parking lot. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you do anything else before you had the conversation with Mr. Simpson about the recital? Did you watch any TV or --
A: I watched the playoff game.
Q: Excuse me?
A: The playoff game, the Knicks and Astros -- Houston. Houston. not the Astros.
Q: The Houston Rockets.
A: Rockets. I watched that. That was on that afternoon. I don't know if it was Game 7 or not. but I was watching that game, and --
Q: Do you remember watching it?
A: Yes. I remember being in my room and on the floor. because I was sweaty from I believe my run.
Q: Do you remember if that was before or after the playing of basketball that you watched the Rocket game?
A: I don't remember 100 percent, and -- I just don't remember, but I know that I did watch that game.
Q: You are not a hundred percent sure of the sequence of some of these events.
A: Exactly.
Q: Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes, I am.
Q: Okay. Tell me, at some time -- at some point you said you ended up in the kitchen nook with Mr. Simpson after the recital?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And just you and he?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you sitting down?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: And was Mr. Simpson sitting down?
A: Yes.
Q: You said yesterday that Mr. Simpson said that he was upset because Nicole was playing hardball with the children. Right?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Now, can you -- you also said that he was upset about the wearing of a tight black miniskirt.
A: Yes.
Q: Right?
A: Right.
Q: That's what he said to you. Right?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: Did -- I'll tell you what: Why don't instead of asking you how upset he was, why don't you show us.
A: It was sitting down. There's a phone here when he sits down, and I'm sitting across about five feet away, and it was, "Nicole's playing hardball with me. Sydney's my child, too. I can see her when want to. "And the dresses, the dresses they wear. I mean. Kato, what are they gonna do when they're grandmas? Are they going to wear those kind of dresses? Come on, how can they wear those dresses when they're older like that. It was a recital. They shouldn't -- it was like they're wearing stuff that they would wear to a club."
And the phone would ring -- and the phone was ringing constantly, and he'd pick up and go "Hello" --
Q: Let me ask you about that -- Are you finished?
A: Yeah. So the phone would ring, and then it would go -- let him do the phone call. and it would change into some other -- the subject was sort of over then, and it was on to the phone call, and I wasn't paying attention, or trying not to, when he was on his calls.
Q: So when he was talking about his interaction with Nicole at the recital he talked in the way that you just tried to describe to us?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I object as leading. There is no foundation for that from that testimony.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You can answer.
A: That's what happened.
Q: You just tried to recreate how he appeared to you and what he said to you. Is that right?
A: Yes.
a After the recital.
A: Yes.
Q: Talking about what had happened at the recital?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he tell you whether he and Nicole spoke words to one another at the recital?
A: I don't think they did speak.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Move to strike. I guess we're withholding all those, because I would have been on the record more than he would have been. The question had to be responsive.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did -- We'll, if you have objections, Mr. Baker, you should make them.
Q: Did he tell you whether or not Nicole and O.J. exchanged words at the recital?
A: I think it was just that he wasn't going to be getting his daughter, and they took off.
Q: Now, you said that there were some phone calls during this conversation with Mr. Simpson about the recital.
A: Yes.
Q: When he answered the phone, did his demeanor change at all?
A: It was "Hello" however you pick up the phone when someone calls.
Q: And when he spoke on the phone, did he speak in an agitated way?
A: No.
Q: Was he sort of normal. relaxed?
A: If the phone would ring, you'd answer "Hello."
Q: Did he express any of his frustration about Nicole playing hardball with the people on rhe phone?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I object to your characterization.
THE WITNESS: No. No. he didn't.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: He did not?
A: He did not.
Q: He didn't share any of what he was telling you to the people who called?
A: He did not.
Q: He did not. Just normal banter?
A: Conversation with whoever was on the phone.
Q: Did you even see him laughing from time to time while he was on the phone?
A: Yes.
Q: You tried not to listen?
A: I did listen -- I mean, if there were conversations going on, it was normal conversation tone: I could hear.
Q: When he got off these phone calls, did he then resume talking about Nicole and what had happened at the recital?
A: I don't know if it came up again. I mean, it might have gone on to something else. The exact dialogue, I don't know. but the Sydney incident sort of was that one comment about playing hardball and shaking of the head. "She can't do that." that sort of statement. But the phone call -- there was no real point to repeating it anymore, so there was nothing more really said about that to me.
Q: Then you went off and took your Jacuzzi?
A: At some point I did, yeah. I was also reading -- there was all this Sunday paper there, so I was reading a lot of the newspapers in that nook area while conversions were going on.
Q: Okay. Later on you took the ride in the Bentley to McDonald's.
A: Yes.
Q: You already told us about that yesterday.
A: Yes.
Q: Can you describe Mr. Simpson 's mood in the Bentley to and from McDonald's?
A: Well, I said I was kinda forcing conversation in the -- on the ride. I felt that because I kind of invited myself for that ride, and I thought he was -- myself thought he was in thought, like deep thought and gloomy. It was --
Q: Gloomy? Gloomy? Did you say "gloomy"?
A: Yes. I didn't want to talk, but I brought up conversations.
Q: Introspective?
A: Yeah. He was in thought.
Q: Quiet?
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: He was leaned back and driving. He was just very -- sort of just very relaxed and in thought. and I was bringing up conversation, but l knew it was kinda forced conversation, and I was comfortable bringing up things because I was trying to get a conversation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Why was it forced?
A: Because I was forcing it. I was, "So what time's the flight?" "Where you going?"
Q: What made it forced in your mind?
A: There was no dialogue. He wasn't bringing up anything. So I thought it was my lead to bring up stuff, and then when there's just kind of one answers to the things. I thought, all right, Kato, don't talk.
Q: Were you feeling awkward about even asking for a straw? A: After I got my stuff, yeah. I already had the stuff and I was gonna say to myself, "Okay," in my head, "Should I ask for a straw? Ask for the straw," so I asked for the straw.
Q: In other words, you had to go through a process of deciding in your mind whether you should ask for a straw.
A: Yeah
Q: Did you ask him you know, what was wrong?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, I object. There is no indication that anything was wrong.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you ask him what was wrong?
A: No. I just -- if anything, I just felt he didn't want to talk, and maybe lonely, and I brought up maybe being tired, that he should get a nap.
Q: Did you ask him if anything was bothering him?
A: No.
Q: Was it your habit to ask questions like that?
A: No.
Q: In your relationship with O.J. Simpson, did you pry into his personal matters?
A: No.
Q: Did you inquire about his personal matters?
A: No.
Q: Did you inquire about his private feelings?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: I think if that would ever come up the other person would bring it up to me more than me having to pry.
Q: you wouldn't bring it up. A: I wouldn't bring it up.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I would think, he's O.J. Simpson. I'm not going to ask him what's going on. what was wrong.
Q: You didn't feel close enough to him?
A: To ask him personal questions, no. If they were going to come up, I thought he would bring them up. If he wanted to talk, he would ask me.
Q: Did you share with Mr. Simpson personal things about your life?
A: Maybe one or two. I mean, nothing really.
Q: Why not?
A: There's nothing really going on.
Q: No. What I am getting to is: Did you feel close enough to him that you would share personal things in your life with him?
A: No. If I had personal problems. no, I wouldn't bring it up to him.
Q: you would not.
A: I would not.
Q: Yesterday we were talking about your conversations with Nicole during the year 1993 when you were living at Gretna Green. and you told us about a number of conversations that she and you had about O.J. Simpson.
A: Right.
Q: Did you talk to Nicole about things other than O.J. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: Frequently?
A: I think Nicole would mostly bring up other things that were going on in her life. She would tell me about her friends, the people she hung out with, what she was gonna do for the day or what she didn't do for the day. She pretty much told me exactly what was going on in her life. When I was around, what I was gonna do.
She talked about Cora. She had running friends, Cora and Cici, that would usually come over in the morning and the friends, Cora almost every day, and then after that they would all go to the coffee -- I don't know what coffee place they go to, but they get their coffee and then hang out at the pool.
She told me things about Cora. She didn't like going out at night so much with Cora because she didn't really like drinking and partying, and she kinda had a thing of friends, going Cora wasn't the big party -- Cora wasn't big at drinking --
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me, Mr. Simpson.
THE WITNESS: Cora wasn't the big drinker. She would go out, but she wasn't like the big drinker. where if Faye went out -- Faye and Cici I think. I think it's those two that hated each other.
So it would be a certain clique of friends that would always go out, and one friend didn't get along with one of the friends. I'm trying to think of who. I think it was Faye and Cici that didn't -- couldn't stand each other.
Cici was more the one they made fun of, that she kept looking for a man. Cici could never get a guy and always in search. Faye, she said, was always someone going after like the rich guy, always had to find the richest guy, was Faye's motive to -- for money, just money was the big motivation thing and...
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: She had views like this about all of her friends, different views for different friends?
A: Yes.
Q: The question that I was asking you -- I think you've answered it -- is whether or not Nicole talked with you about a wide variety of things, and the answer is what?
A: Yes.
Q: And frequently?
A: Yes, she would talk to me a lot.
Q: -- Okay Did Nicole ever talk to you about Mr. Simpson being a jealous man?
A: Yes.
Q: What did she say to you about that?
A: She just would say, "O.J.'s a very jealous person? that he liked having her just at home.
Q: That's what she told you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did she ever give you any examples of his jealousy?
A: She said at certain points she had seen Marcus, Marcus Allen, at certain times when I was living at Gretna Green, and that he had to park somewhere else, and it was because if O.J. found him, he'd be really pissed.
Q: She told you that?
A: Yes. So he parked somewhere else. off of some other street.
Q: Did you ever talk to Marcus Allen about O.J. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Can you think of any other examples that Nicole gave you of O.J. Simpson's jealousy?
A: There was pictures she had up of other people that were her friends in the Gretna Green house, and she would say that that picture, if O.J. knew that was a guy she had dated, he'd get pissed. So pictures had to come down at certain points in the house.
Q: Was there an incident in which you were driving the Ferrari owned by Nicole?
A: There's an incident where she was driving the Ferrari,and she went to a lunch --
Q: Were you in it?
A: Yes, I was in the passenger side.
Q: Describe that incident.
A: She had said -- I didn't -- I was -- we went to get sushi at this one place that used to be in Brentwood on the corner, and she was driving the car, and she said that O.J. drove by. and I didn't see O.J. drive by. She had said O.J. drove by in a Testarossa, and she said that when he saw that, she said the face that he made. because I was a guy in the car, was a pissed-off look.
Q: Did she tell you whether or not O.J. Simpson had called her later on to inquire about the man in the car with her?
A: I believe so. yes.
Q: What did she say about that?
A: Who the guy was.
Q: And what did Nicole say she told O.J.?
A: I think that, "It was Kato, the guy that lives in the house."
Q: Did you ever talk to O.J. about his jealousy toward Nicole?
A: No. I don't think so, no.
Q: Never?
A: If anything, the conversions would be -- if they were trying to get back together and all that, if they didn't work, I would always say that "Maybe you guys should go apart for a while and see if it works then after not seeing each other?"
Q: Did O.J. ever ask you to tell him about Nicole's activities?
A: No.
Q: Never?
A: No. He might have just said once that -- if I saw her somewhere, but it wasn't a thing like, "Go out and spy on her?"
Q: Okay.
A: But if I saw her somewhere, I would say, "Oh, I saw her at this place."
Q: And what would he then say to you?
A: I think it was --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: -- a thing that it was a -- Thursday night was the night out for the girl thing; that I believe at that time all the girls would go to a place called Renaissance that he was aware of, with her friends.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Right.
A: So he knew that that was the club to go to.
Q: And did he tell you to let him know if you saw Nicole at Renaissance?
A: He asked me if I did see her.
Q: If you did see her.
A: Yes. he did.
Q: And you would tell him if you did or didn't?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did he ever ask you about Nicole's romantic relationships with other men, other than -- you mentioned Grant Cramer yesterday. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he ever ask you about Marcus Allen?
A: No.
Q: Or any other men?
A: No.
Q: The incident at Gretna Green on October 25, 1993, you heard O.J. Simpson yelling and screaming, as you testified yesterday. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you heard him yelling and screaming about Nicole performing oral sex on [name deleted].
A: Yes.
Q: When he was yelling and screaming about Nicole performing oral sex on [name deleted]. did you know when the oral sex had occurred? A: I didn't know the date. No, I didn't.
Q: Do you know if it was recent?
A: No idea.
Q: No idea? Did you know that it was more than a year and a half earlier?
A: I believe I knew it was in the Gretna Green house.
Q: Or a year earlier? You didn't know when it occurred.
A: I didn't know a date, no.
Q: How did you know that it was in the Gretna Green house?
A: Because I believe Nicole had told me that O.J. was outside one time, that he had told her that he was outside the front window, and he mentioned that she was having -- giving oral sex to [Name Deleted].
Q: Nicole told you that --
A: I heard it from both.
Q: First -- who did you hear about it from first?
A: I believe it was O.J.
Q: Tell me what O.J. said to you.
A: That he was outside a window in Gretna Green, and Nicole was having oral sex with this [Name Deleted]. And I was -- "Huh." -- There was nothing really I -- it was really kind of intense . What do you say.
Q: What did you say?
A: I don't think I said anything. I went "Wow." I was thinking in my head. if you were watching your ex, that would be tough.
Q: What did Nicole tell you about that incident?
A: I don't remember exactly, but she I believe did -- was seeing this [Name Deleted] guy for a bit, and she was in the Gretna Green living room, and I believe she did it. I believe she had oral sex.
Q: But what did she tell you about O.J. Simpson watching her?
A: She couldn't believe it.
Q: Excuse me?
A: She couldn't believe it.
Q: How -- did she tell you how she found out that O.J. Simpson had watched her and [Name Deleted] have sex?
A: I think it was O.J. told her.
Q: And what did she say to you was her reaction when O.J. told her this?
A: Well, it was a few things. I believe that it was that she couldn't believe it, and I think that prompted some of the conversation to tell her about my phone might be tapped and -- I mean. the exact dialogue, I don't know. I just don't know.
Q: You mentioned that yesterday. Phones tapped and videotaping?
A: That by living in the guest house, she goes, "You know, you should worry about that."
Q: Okay. Did you see any -- Withdrawn. You said yesterday that the door to the Gretna Green residence -- I guess the French doors were broken.
A: Yes.
Q: That they had not been broken before this incident.
A: Yes.
Q: At least to the extent that you saw them. Right?
A: Correct.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No, no, I object. He didn't say to the extent that he saw them. He said they weren't broken.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. They were not broken. Right?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: At all.
THE WITNESS: Correct. The French doors in the back of the Gretna Green house.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you see any splinters on the floor?
A: After the incident was over?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: you saw splinters on the floor.
A: The splinters -- it was busted on top. It was broken. The wood was, you know, hanging down. I had to nail it.
Q: Were there splinters on the floor?
A: Yeah, there was some debris, but it was the nailing of -- do you know what I'm talking about, those kind of doors that you have like the latch lock? That was broken, and the wood was -- I had to go back and hammer that so the thing wouldn't fall down and we could shut the door. The wood part.
Q: Did you clean up the debris?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you frightened by that incident?
A: Yes.
Q: When O.J. Simpson told you on June 11 -- Withdrawn. On June 11 you and O.J. were watching TV and the GARP movie came on and the oral sex scene.
A: Yes.
Q: Right?
A: (Nods head.)
Q: And he talked to you at that time about the [Name Deleted] incident. Right?
A: Right.
Q: At that time did Mr. Simpson tell you when the [Name Deleted] incident had occurred? Was there any discussion of the timing of the [Name Deleted] incident?
A: That it had happened at the Gretna Green house, and I knew what the time frame would have been was when she moved in there then, so it had to be within that year, year and a half.
Q: Did he say anything to you about [Name Deleted]?
A: He didn't like [Name Deleted]
Q: That's what he said?
[Portion deleted] . . .
Q: How did you meet O.J. Simpson?
A: I was -- the first time I met him was I was at Gretna Green. and I believe it was -- I was tossing a ball with Justin, and he came over and --
Q: You were already living there?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Cathy Randa call you at some point to say that O.J. wanted to meet with you?
A: There was a thing where Cathy Randa had called about -- inquiring about who the guy was, and then --
Q: Who did she call?
A: I believe Nicole.
Q: Nicole told this to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Randa ever call you or talk to you?
A: Yeah.
Q: What did she say to you?
A: That at first, I guess, he didn't know me, O.J. really didn't know who this Kato guy was, if he liked him or not, and he -- I was the guy living back there. And then Cathy had said that after talking to me a bunch of times, "How can he not," like a -- so -- Q: How can he not like you?
A: Well, I've never met him yet. So it had been a thing where at first he didn't, and then he understood what I was about, I guess, and then liked me.
Q: Now, these discussions that you had with Nicole and Cathy that you just described, they occurred shortly after you moved in January of '93?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you moved out of -- Withdrawn. Tell me the reason you moved out of Gretna Green.
A: When I moved out of Gretna Green? Okay. When I was moving out of Gretna Green, there was a few incidents that happened: One time during the -- living with Nicole, she had asked me, I believe it was sometime in April when I was living there, that she was moving and I'd have to go out and get a place. And I said "Okay," and she gave me, you know, a few weeks' notice.
So I was looking for places, and then she was looking for a place and found a place. And then while we were looking at this place in I believe like Bel Air off the Mountainside Road, I think it was called. We all looked at this house and she said -- and they said. "Kato, there's a room for you, too." And then she said, "We can move here all together."
I said "Fine," but that never happened. And then it was December, January, when Nicole had said that "Kato, you're gonna have to move out."
And then I said "Okay." So I thought she wanted me out of the house, and so I started to look, and then she had changed her mind and said, "No. The place on Bundy has a room that you can stay in now."
But at that time I believe O.J. already asked me that I could stay -- I could go to Rockingham into his house, and so I said, "Well, God, that's great," and then I made the move there instead of Bundy.
Q: Why was it great?
A: Well, because I didn't have a place, and then -- at first I didn't have the place with Nicole, and then Nicole offered it back and -- and Nicole offered the place back --
Q: Bundy?
A: -- the Bundy place, and then O.J. gave me the place on Rockingham. and I thought it was pretty cool. I had like a pool, Jacuzzi.
And I offered him money. He said he didn't want my money. I thought it was an unbelievable deal.
Q: Did O.J. talk to you about your living at Bundy?
A: That at one point he said it probably wasn't right for me to be in the same house with Nicole and the kids, and I thought there -- I'm going to make that thing work, and I said, "Okay, I understand that, that it wouldn't be probably best for me to be in the house with Nicole."
Q: You mean under the same roof.
A: Under the same roof. Because there wasn't a guest house. It was in the same house.
Q: How did Nicole react to your moving in with Mr. Simpson?
A: She was very mad at me.
Q: What did she say to you?
A: She said, "Kato, he manipulated you," and she stressed that. that she goes, "See, Look it, he got to you, too. He manipulated you."
I said, "What? I'm still your friend. He's not manipulating me."
And then Cora Fishman said, "The reason she's pissed at you," because then she started not talking, so Cora said, "This is the reason she's pissed: She needs the money from you and that O.J. got away with manipulating you, and now he's got you as his friend."
I said, "God, I'm still her friend. I don't know why she doesn't want to be friends anymore." So it changed from that.
Q: From that point on Nicole and you were not close friends any longer?
A: I thought I was still her friend, but she wasn't the same. She wasn't, you know, really talking to me, and when I would see her running, it was just run right by.
Q: Did you try to engage her in conversation and resume the friendship with her?
A: Yes.
Q: And what would happen?
A: Well, I made her a tape with a letter I wrote, and I just said, "God, I wish we could still be friends." And then my daughter also would come by and play with Sydney, and when Nicole would come by the Rockingham place with the kids, she would talk to Tiffany and not me, and it was just uncomfortable for that.
And then the other time we kinda talked was there was a picnic I think at O.J.'s where all the chairs are being set up. I think it was for Sunshine School. So she just said, "Kato, move these chairs and set up this thing for this party."
And I said "Sure." So I thought I'm getting -- you know, we're getting not closer, but at least talking.
Q: And after that incident did you talk with her more?
A: No. It was she wanted me to move out quite a few times. She would tell me to move out of the place.
Q: Whose place?
A: Out of O.J.'s place. And so I was looking for places.
Michelle, the maid, would always say, "O.J. wants you out," and then O.J. said to me that "I'll tell you when I want out not Michelle." Then Nicole would come by sometimes with O.J. and either be swimming in the pool or with the kids, and just she would say, "When are you leaving?"
So I thought, if they're gonna try to make it work, it would be the best thing if I did leave. So I went out and looked for places.
Q: Did O.J. know you were looking for places?
A: I think so. I'm not positive.
Q: Had he ever asked you to leave?
A: No.
Q: So when you decided to move into O.J.'s place instead of Nicole's Bundy place, your relationship with Nicole came to an end?
A: It wasn't the same. It was -- yeah. we didn't talk as much . I think maybe we talked on the phone once or twice.
Q: And from that point on did she ever share anything private with you?
A: No.
Q: Talk to you about her feelings about anything?
A: No.
Q: So it wasn't like it used to be.
A: No, it wasn't.
Q: And Cora told you that it was because of your moving into the place and --
A: That was back then when I did the move, Cora told me that.
Q: When Nicole said to you that "O.J. has now manipulated you?" did you ask her what she meant by that and did she tell you?
A: That she had said he gets to all her friends. Whenever she has a friend. that O.J. can take him away.
Q: And she thought you had been taken away from her by O.J.?
A: Yes.
Q: That's what she told you.
A: That's what she told me.
Q: When was the last time you saw Nicole before she died?
A: I think it was in May, it could have been. I don't know what time that -- when that Sunshine party was where I set the chairs. I think it was in May. beginning of May.
Q: When was the last time you spoke to her?
A: I don t know. I don't know the last time I had dialogue with her.
Q: When Nicole and O.J. broke up for the final time, did you have an understanding as to who ended the relationship, Nicole or O.J.?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: .No foundation. Speculation.
THE WITNESS: I thought it was O.J. that said it was over.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know whether one of them had told the other that it was over?
A: Well, there's things. I believe it had do in May with that bracelet being back that Nicole wasn't going to see him anymore, that it was over.
Q: When Nicole returned the bracelet?
A: I believe so.
Q: In -- Do you -- how do you know that Nicole returned the bracelet. by the way?
A: Cora Fishman I believe told me that there was a bracelet that she returned that was an expensive bracelet.
Q: Nicole didn't tell you. Right?
A: No.
Q: Did O.J. tell you?
A: No.
Q: Did Cora tell you why Nicole returned that bracelet?
A: I believe it was -- had something with O.J. being possessive. I don't know the exact reason. That he couldn't get her back with the bracelet; that this bracelet was supposed to be the bond that would bring them back together, but she didn't want it, and that was kind of the thing of giving back the bracelet, he couldn't buy her.
Q: Cora told you that.
A: Cora said this.
Q: What did Cora tell you about O.J. being possessive?
A: That O.J. was possessive, that he bought gifts for, you know, her or others.
Q: Did anyone say anything -- did Cora or anyone else say anything to you about the IRS letter?
A: Yes, Cora mentioned about that.
Q: What did Cora say about that?
A: That he was going to change the -- that address, that it was going to get Nicole into a lot of trouble financially, and if she got in trouble financially that she would have no money.
Q: Cora told you that?
A: Yeah.
Q: And Cora told you that Nicole said that to her. Right?
A: Yes, that there was a thing that Nicole didn't have enough money, and that was one of the reasons why the IRS thing would be difficult to handle.
Q: Did anybody else besides Cora discuss with you the breakup between O.J. and Nicole?
A: No.
Q: When would you talk to Cora Fishman?
A: When would I or when --
Q: Well, that's a bad question. When would you meet up with her, see Cora Fishman, during this time frame? Now we are into late May, early June l 994 .
A: Cora I saw once or twice at this market in the -- I don't know what it's called. It's right in Brentwood. And I saw her running a few times, and I saw her during the trial a lot.
Q: Before Nicole's death.
A: Oh, before, but after.
Q: Let me ask you this: The conversations with Cora that you just related about the reasons for the Nicole -- O.J. breakup, when did those occur?
A: One of them was on a run, when we -- I saw her on a run. We had talked before and -- Q: Before what?
A: Before the murders. And then the others were all after, after the murders.
Q: Shortly after?
A: Yes.
Q: You and she were alone, talking about the murders?
A: Yes.
Q: Where were you talking?
A: In Brentwood. One time we were on -- at a coffee shop, and then we 'd go to a coffee shop in Beverly Hills and talk.
Q: And did Cora tell you her belief whether or not O.J. committed those murders?
A: Somewhat she had a feeling.
Q: What was her feeling that she communicated to you?
A: Well, she didn't know for sure, but she had a feeling it might have happened.
Q: What might have happened?
A That O.J. might have done It
Q: She told that to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you talked to any of Nicole s other friends about her breakup with O.J?
A: No. No.
Q: Faye Resnick?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever talk to Cici about it?
A: No.
Q: Or Christian Reichardt?
A: No.
Q: Ron Fishman?
A: No.
Q: And after Nicole's death, did you talk to anyone else about the murders besides Cora?
A: Michael.
Q: No, I don't mean lawyers. I mean friends of the Simpsons.
A: No.
Q: Did Cora say to you why she believed O.J. Simpson might have killed Nicole?
A: There was a -- in the -- at the wake. It was when she was just at the wake, and she was just bawling and saying, "Why? Why," and she was pounding on O.J., on O.J.'s chest.
Q: Who was pounding?
A: Cora.
Q: Saying, "Why? Why? Why? Why did you do it?"
A: That's -- yes.
Q: What did -- Did you witness this?
A: I saw it. I was at a door. and she was bawling when she walked in, and it just happened in the -- at the funeral house.
Q: Okay. This was the wake.
A: The wake.
Q: The day before the funeral.
A: Yes.
Q: Or the night?
A: It was daytime.
Q: And where was the wake?
A: Somewhere in Dana Point or Laguna. It was down -- It was in Orange County. I don't know the name of the place where it was at.
Q: Funeral parlor?
A: It was a funeral parlor.
Q: And you saw Cora Fishman --
A: Cora --
Q: -- pound on O.J. Simpson's chest. Is that what you are saying?
A: Yes, saw her in the hallway, and she was in the hallway and she was shaking and hugging me, and she was just uncontrollable and screaming, and then she had run in and did that. into where Nicole was out.
Q: Laid out, you mean?
A: Laid out.
Q: And you saw it?
A. Yes.
Q: And you heard what she said.
A: I heard, "Why?"
Q. You heard, "Why?"
A: And hitting. And, "What?" "Why," I heard, "Why?"
Q: Did O.J. say anything back to her?
A: I didn't hear it.
Q: What was O.J.'s appearance or demeanor at that time?
A: His head was down.
Q: Did he say, "I didn't do it?? Did he say that?
A: I didn't hear him say anything.
Q: Did Cora Fishman at any time tell you why she believed that O.J. might have killed Nicole?
A: Cora just brought up that O.J. was jealous. I mean, she said she didn't have like proof in that, but she just had a feeling at that time.
Q: Let me see if I understand this. When you and Cora were talking about --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I told you that's not the test.
MR. PETROCELLI: There are a lot of things that are not the test, Mr. Baker, but let me get back to this.
Q: You and Cora were where having this conversation about why Cora believed O.J. Simpson might have killed Nicole, and in that context Cora said to you that O.J. was very jealous.
A. Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I would just object. That is without foundation, your preamble, that they were having a conversation about O.J. killed Nicole. That's never been testified to.
BY MR. PETROCELLI
Q Did you have that conversation?
A: We had talked about their relationship and somewhat of how here was just button pushing.
Q: You and Cora talked about this?
A: On both parts they were always pushing buttons, and Cora and I talked about that.
Q: And this was after Nicole 's death?
A: Yes.
Q: You and Cora were where at this time? In the market or --
A: No. This was at a coffee shop in Beverly Hill.
Q: Coffee shop? What was the name
A: It was called Michelle Richard.
Q: And just the two of you?
A. Yes.
Q: How long were you there?
A: Hour.
Q: And in this hour conversation it was about Nicole, Nicole's death?
A: What was going on. That was pretty much the point of getting there, to have coffee, and that was the conversation that came up.
Q: Did you ask Cora if she thought that O.J. had done it?
A: Did I ask her?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes. I said, "What's your feeling?"
Q: What did she say?
A: That she felt at that time, yes, that she was thinking that O.J. did it.
Q: And did she say why she thought that?
A: Because of how all the button pushing was happening. And Cora was with Nicole a lot during that period: I wasn't at that time when I was living at O.J.'s, and she said there was just a lot of arguments going on and a lot of manipulating on both sides and there's a lot of button pushing of what -- who could get who mad, and I don't know the exact incidents of what the button pushing was, but that's what it was -- she was saying. They knew how to get each other mad.
Q: Did she describe to you any of the button pushing?
A: Not that I can remember.
Q: Had you seen any of it yourself in your I year and a half with both Nicole and O.J.?
A: Yeah, I believe so.
Q: What button pushing did you see?
A: On whisk part?
Q: On either part.
A: I would see. I believe, O.J. could make a call possibly to a girl and tell her about it. and Nicole could also say something about being with younger guys and possibly talking about. you know, that she would just be with a younger guy while O.J.'s getting older, was one of the button-pushing things she would do. and then O.J. would just have other women, I think, during the relationship.
Q: And tell Nicole about it?
A: Yes.
Q: And how do you know that they did these things to one another?
A: Well, I saw -- I heard Nicole tell me certain things, and I could see things that would go on at some times.
Q: Tell me what you saw.
A: I guess one of the incidents would be the Jenner incident, of being in the car on that Christmas where he got on the phone to someone; I don't know who, and it was to prove a point that he, I believe, wasn't with someone. and then that would get her mad. And I think hers was just maybe going out and dressing, I mean, sexy, and going out with the girls.
Q: Tell me --
A: And that's about it that I know.
Q: That's what you can recall seeing for yourself?
A: (Nods head.)
Q: Did you ever talk with O.J. about the button pushing?
A: I think part of the conversations were -- was just that I -- just that, "If you guys couldn't make it work," and I think button pushing, "if you couldn't make it work, then get apart. and then maybe it'll work later"
Q: What would O.J. say to you in response to that?
A: I don't think there was any kind of response. It was just me kind of going on and talking. I mean, I wasn't a counselor -- I mean, maybe I was a counselor. I don't know. I wasn't a psychologist.
Q: Did he ever -- did O.J. ever tell you about his feelings towards Nicole. whether he loved her?
A: Yeah. he loved her.
Q: Did he tell you that?
A: Yes, I heard him say he loved her.
Q: You heard him say it to her, or did he say it to you?
A: That he had told me he loved her.
Q: When did he tell you that? A: There were times at the house that they'd be together and I would just say, "You two, you should kiss," and they were kissing and they were happy.
I mean they laughed together, and it was a, you know, thing at the house, at a party, I think, when they were together and I said, "Well, you guys should just kiss each other, hug each other," and they did, and think that was -- they seemed to get along great.
Q: So you -- in the year and a half that you knew both Nicole and O.J., you saw times during the relationship that were good.
A: Yes
Q: And these arc some examples that you're giving us. Right?
A: Yes, definitely, that there were times they were good.
Q: And there were times that were not so good.
A: Stormy times.
Q: Stormy?
A: Right.
Q: And both, you believe, pushed each other's buttons.
A: Yes.
Q: Tell me about this incident at the Jenners' party in Christmas of 1993.
A: From everything I remember, I went to this party. It was a Christmas Eve party at Bruce Jenner's house. So we're at the party, and we pretty much had just gotten in there. There was a lot of people there, and it was not everybody that I knew. And I started meeting people, and O.J. went one way, and everybody was kind of at the party, just talking to people. And then Nicole at about 15 minutes into it just tapped me and said, "You can stay if you want to or you can leave, but we're fighting and we're leaving."
And I said, "I'm gonna go then," so we all left.
And then I went into the car when I believe Faye drove up, Faye Resnick, and then Nicole went to her and started telling her what the -- what the reason was of the fight.
So I was in the car with the kids in the back seat. and then they both got in the car. And it was a quiet ride, and then they started yelling at each other, and I don't know exactly what it was about. the yelling at the time. because I was in back with the kids. and Christmas Eve and occupying them while the argument was up front, and then it got a heated argument, and I just said, "Hey, you guys it's Christmas Eve."
And I remember him getting on the cell phone, the carphone, and saying, I'll prove to you something that -- I don't know exactly what, that he was somewhere, but he was on the phone.
And she goes "l don't care. I don't care."
And I said, "It's Christmas. It's Christmas. Let's go."
And then we ended up at the house, and there was a dinner, and it was quiet. It was quiet. And something happened where everybody became friends again. and it was -- I mean, at least it got better.
So the whole argument, I don't know exactly what it was, but it had something to do, I believe. with a girl, and a guy named Joseph was at the party. I don't know if that was part of the argument, but that was an ex-boyfriend, I believe. of Nicole's.
Q: Did you see O.J. visibly upset?
A: Not at the party. All of a sudden I was pulled out of the party, and then it was in the car.
Q: Did you see him visibly upset in the car?
A: Yes.
Q: And was he yelling?
A: Yes.
Q: And was Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were with the kids in the back seat?
A: In the back seat.
Q: And how -- Did you observe the children -- You were talking about Justin and Sidney. Right?
A: In the back seat. right.
Q: And did you observe the children's reaction to this heated argument?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You've characterized it as 'heated?
MR. PETROCELLI: It was his word.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I missed it if it was.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Proceed.
A: Yeah, I was in back with the kids and just keeping them occupied and joking with them, making jokes, and they were laughing, or rolling into them or -- doing goofy stuff.
Q: You were attempting to divert them from the argument?
A: Yes.
Q: The yelling was loud?
A: Yes.
Q: By O.J.?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there any -- Did Mr. Simpson appear out of control?
A.: There was yelling going on. He was driving the car. I wouldn't say he was out of control, but they were both yelling, and he was yelling at her, and it was over this thing. He got on the phone and said, "I'll show you. I'll prove to you that."
And then she said, "I don't care." And so I didn't know exactly what it was about, if that was from the party. so I just kept going, "What happened that this is going on?"
Q: It was just kind of sudden that it happened?
A: Yeah. It happened, Like I said. 15 minutes, I think, into the party.
Q: Were there ever times at Mr. Simpson's home when you were present that you saw he and Nicole get into arguments at the house?
A: Not really. I mean, I can't think of -- like major arguments. If there was like a thing -- I noticed times when there was just silence when there would just be -- I could see that something was up. But Nicole sometimes would just get in a mood so there was no talking at all, so something was up, something happened. What, I don't know, something. You -- I have...
Q: Did you know whether Nicole was seeing Marcus Allen again in 1994 after Marcus' marriage?
A: I didn't know it.
Q: No one told you that?
A: No. I know there was something going on with Marcus, but I think Marcus is married, so I didn't believe it.
Q: Who did you hear it from?
A: Oh, I knew he got married.
Q: Who did you hear it from that something was going on with Marcus?
A: I believe it was Cora. I pretty much talked to only Cora after anything had happened because Cora was the only person I really talked to.
Q: What do you mean, "after anything had happened"?
A: After the murders.
Q: Your conversations after the murders were with Cora?
A: Yes.
Q: And you think Cora told you that Nicole had been seeing Marcus?
A: I believe that at some point also I heard in May that there was a thing that Nicole was seeing Marcus. From who I don't know, but it was like one of those things you hear, a rumor. But I didn't know -- I couldn't say it was true or not. so it's nothing that I could justify and go. "Yes. I know it. I saw it," but I didn't.
Q: Do you have any knowledge about Mr. Simpson flowing Nicole around town or checking on her whereabouts?
A: I don't. I don't know.
Q: Did you ever see him do that?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever -- did anyone ever tell you that he did that?
A: The incident about -- with [Name Deleted] was the only one I really knew, at the Gretna Green house.
Q: Right. Any others?
A: People would say that, that he was following and that, but I didn't see it.
Q: Well, tell me who told you that.
A: I believe it was -- you know, I can't say. I thought it was like Faye Resnick. but I don't really talk to Faye, so I don't know. But it was something you would just hear in Brentwood.
Q: Before Nicole's death?
A: Yes.
Q: What would you just hear around Brentwood in this regard?
A: If you got a coffee at like Starbucks, that "O.J. follows Nicole around." I can't give a name, so it's tough for me to say. But that was something I had heard, that he followed her around.
Q: Did you ever ask O.J. if that was true?
A: No. I didn't see it. I mean, that's -- from what I know, I didn't see him following her around. I think also it was one of the things that --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: There is no question pending, Mr. Kaelin.
MR. PETROCELLI: Phil, aren't you going to reprimand Bob for interrupting the witness?
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: I don't even think I was paying attention, I think. MR. PETROCELLI: He gave me a hard time about that yesterday, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Good.
MR. PETROCELLI: Why don't we take a short break.
MR. R0BERT BAKER: Why don't we take a lunch.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let's take a lunch break
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now. and the time is approximately 12:27.
(At the hour of 12:27 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:27 p.m.)
(At the hour of 2:25 p.m., the deposition of BRIAN KAELIN was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present with the exception of Edward Medvene.)
THE VlDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 2:25.
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you have a conversation with anyone in which you heard that an investigator of O.J. Simpson had called your lawyer?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you hear about that conversation?
A: Yeah. it was a phone call to Bill Genego, a criminal lawyer, and it was I think the detective, private detective for O.J.'s side had said that -- Bill had told me that the detective had a question from O.J. to see if I remembered after McDonald's that he went into the house, and I said, "No, I didn't. I didn't see him go unto the house."
Q: An investigator called Genego pass a message to you?
A: Yes. And Bill told me what the message -- the question was and to give Bill a reply.
Q: The question was, "Did you see O.J. go into the house" --
A: Yes.
Q: -- after McDonald's?"
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you tell Bill?
A: That I did not.
Q: O.J. Simpson asked you that same question on the evening of the l3th in his kitchen. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: He asked you. "Did you see" -- what did he say to you?
A: It was -- I was in the kitchen area. and he said, "Kato, you saw me go into the house."
And I said, "No, I didn't."
Q: Now, when you went into the kitchen with Simpson --
A: Yes.
Q: -- that was the first time you were alone with him since the night before. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And the only thing Simpsons said to you was this statement that you just made?
A: Yes.
Q: "You saw me go into the house. Kato "?
A: Yes.
Q: In other words, did Mr. Simpson ask you any other questions, such as. "We took a ride together in the Bentley, Right, Kato?"
A: No.
Q: He didn't ask you that?
A: No, he didn't.
Q: And he didn't ask you, "Well, we were in my house watching TV yesterday, talking about things. Right?" He didn't ask you that question?
A: No, he didn't.
Q: He didn't ask you, "You saw me get in the limo. Right?"
A: He didn't ask me, no.
Q: None of those kind of questions by me jog your memory into remembering any other questions that O.J. asked you?
A: Not that I remember.
Q: You had left the police station from -- on the day of the13th to go to Cramer's house. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And while you were at Cramer's house, you got a phone call?
A: Yes.
Q: And from whom?
A: Howard Weitzman.
Q: Now, had you told Howard Weitzman where you were going to be?
A: No.
Q: Had you told anyone in Mr. Simpson's residence where you were going to be?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Do you know how Howard Weitzman tracked you down?
A: I don't. I don't have any idea.
Q: Were you surprised that you got a phone call from Howard Weitzman?
A: Yes.
Q: What did Howard Weitzman say to you on the telephone?
First of all. was Simpson on that call. too?
A: Yes. It was a three-way call. I cannot remember like the conversation that went on. I think it was for set up a meeting, and I think he asked me about the events. It seemed to be -- I think that's what happened, because that would seem logical, that it would have been talking about the events of the night.
Q: Right.
A: And I think I discussed it with him. and I think that was it. I think he said he was going to set up an appointment to meet.
Q: Did you ever meet him?.
A: I never met him.
Q: So you think in the telephone call with Weitzman and Simpson that you were asked what the events of the night before were according to your memory. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did they ask you what you had told the police?
A: I think so. I think I told them.
Q: Simpson and Weitzman asked you what you told the police earlier in the day.
A: I'm pretty sure. yes. I told them that I was there, that I had been at the police station, and they had asked and I think I told them.
Q: And you told them, in effect, the events that you recalled?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you related the events to Simpson and Weitzman that you had told the police earlier, did you say anything about not seeing Mr. Simpson go into the house after Me Donald's?
A: If that question was asked to me, I would have answered it that way, yes.
Q: Do you have a recollection of exactly what you said to them you told the police or generally what you told them?
A: Told the police?
Q: No. Weitzman and Simpson.
A: I think I would have gone over that night, and if that question was asked about going into the house, I would have, I'm pretty sure. said., "No, I didn't see him go into the house."
Q: Okay. Now. later on that evening you went to the Simpson residence, and you've described those events. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And the next day you said Arnelle took you to Shapiro and Taft's office. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And Slotkin made the comment to you, "It 's O.J. You better get your story right"?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: And you also said O.J. told you to tell the truth or something like that. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: When you got to the Simpson residence the evening of the 13th, was anyone inquiring of you what you had told the police?
A: I think people were saying to me at the house -- the specific people, I don't know. I think it was just the people that were at the house that day were saying, "What did they ask you? What did you tell them?"
And I tried to make it a point of not saying anything, like, "Oh. just questions," and that. "and what happened. " I was trying to not talk about it to anybody.
Q: When you were talking to Mr. Simpson after the recital on June l2, did he tell you that his relationship with Nicole was over for good?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Nicole Simpson ever tell you that she caught Mr. Simpson in bed with another woman while she was pregnant?
A: Yes.
Q: Relate that story to me.
A: I was living at Gretna Green, and it was a story -- one of the stories she would have told me was that when she was pregnant, that O.J. had got someone in the guest house, and he caught her with the girl.
Q: She caught him?
A: Nicole caught O.J. in the guest room with another girl.
Q: And she was pregnant with Sydney at the time?
A: Yes.
Q: That's what Nicole told you
A: Yes. she did.
Q: Did she tell you whether they had a big fight about that?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: Did -- You said yesterday that Nicole told you that she thought O.J. would kill her one day.
A: Yes.
Q: Did she ever tell you how she thought O.J. would kill her?
A: She had mentioned a story that she was saying, "I know how O.J. would kill me one day," and --
Q: How did she say O.J. would kill her?
A: She said with scissors.
Q: Did she say what would happen to O.J. if O.J. did kill her?
A: Yes.
A: What did she say?
A: She had said that "If O.J. would ever kill me, he'll get away with it because he's O.J. Simpson."
Q: She told that to you.
A: She said that to me.
Q: And she told that to you during the time that you were living at Gretna Green?
A: At Gretna Green.
Q: Was there anything that you recall that prompted these comments by her?
A: No. It was just -- it would be one of the tea talks or stuff, she would start opening up about her life.
Q: When you say "tea talks," Mr. Baker is smiling I would like to know --
A: It was -- Q: -- what do you mean, for the record?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: My countenance is not an issue in this case.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: He wasn't here yesterday, or maybe he was --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I was. I think this is very entertaining. Not true , but entertaining.
THE WITNESS: Gretna Green, I was in the guest house in back. and sometimes she'd knock on the door and say, "Oh, you know, I'm seeing if you want to talk," or she'd just start talking. and then we'd go in the house and she'd make tea or something to drink and talk --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you drink tea?
A: Sometimes tea or whatever was in the refrigerator.
Q: Did Nicole drink tea?
A: Yes.
Q: Was it hot tea?
A: Hot tea. Decaffeinated usually.
Q: Decaffeinated?
A: Usually, yeah. Like the Celestial Seasonings, I think, that type of tea.
Q: You had a conversation with Cora Fishman after Nicole's death. Right?
A: I did.
Q: On several conversations. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now. did Cora ever tell you, as between O.J. and Nicole, who ended the relationship?
A: Cora said that Nicole had ended the relationship.
Q: Did she tell you when?
A: I believe it was sometime in May.
Q: Did Cora tell you when Nicole had -- excuse me -- where Nicole had reached that decision?
A: It was a trip they had in Cabo, Cabo San Lucas, that she decided that it was over.
Q: When Cora told that to you, was anyone else present?
A: I don't think so. It was just me.
Q: Was your lawyer present, Michael Plotkin?
A: Oh. at one of the conversations. yes.
Q: With you and Cora?
A: Cora Fishman.
Q: When Cora said this about Nicole having decided to end the relationship in Cabo.
A: Yes.
Q: May of 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did Cora tell you that Nicole had said that it's over forever?
A: Yes.
Q: Did O.J. Simpson ever talk to you and describe Nicole as stubborn?
A: Yes.
Q: And made some comments, "It must be her German ancestry"?
A: Yes.
Q: What did O.J. say to you about Nicole in that regard?
A: There were just things that would happen certain times. Nicole would do -- they were going to take a trip together, and many times Nicole would -- O.J. would already get the ticket, and Nicole would just cancel it.
It was kinda like the ebb and flow of things would go that way, and she would have a -- sometimes this streak that she would have it her way, and he would relate it to her being of German ancestry.
And there would be. like I said, these trips that would come, and I think Cathy Randa would make the reservations and everything, and they would l be ready to take a trip, and then she would just cancel that day after he got the ticket, and that would cause another big problem of -- between them in their relationship.
Q: O.J. told you those things?
A: Yeah, and I saw that happen with that. With the German thing, he told me that, and then also the cancellation of trips I've seen. when the trips were canceled.
Q: You saw that for yourself?
A: Well, I knew just where and what was going to happen, when she was going to be gone for a weekend. I'd go, "I thought you were gone."
She goes "No, I'm not gonna go. I canceled it."
Q: And O.J. would get upset about it?
A: Yes.
Q: Did -- Yesterday you testified that when you saw Mr. Simpson, he usually was wearing a ring.
A: Yes.
Q: A large ring?
A: Yeah.
Q: On his what, ring finger?
A: I think it was here (Indicating).
Q: Left hand?
A: Yeah.
Q: Is it the ring that Mr. Simpson is wearing now that you usually see him wear?
A: That's usually the ring.
Q: The ring he wore yesterday. Right?
A: I think that's what he wore yesterday, yeah. I don't know. That was the hand yesterday, I guess. I think.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Did you say left or right hand that he usually had the ring on when you saw him?
THE WITNESS: I would think it was the right.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You see it's on his left. Right
A: Yeah. I see it's on the left.
MR. SIMPSON: I don't wear rings on the right hand. I've never known a man to do that.
THE WITNESS: I have one on.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You've been interviewed by a number of lawyers, haven't you?
A: Yes.
Q: About the facts and circumstances of Nicole's death. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever -- Let me change subjects for a second. Have you ever met -- did you ever meet Ron Goldman?
A: Never.
Q: Before Ron's death, had you ever heard his name?
A: No.
Q: Mr. Simpson ever mention it to you?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole ever mention it to you?
A: No.
Q: Cora Fishman?
A: No.
Q: And after the death of Ron and Nicole, did anyone ever mention to you Ron's name?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: Cora.
Q: What did Cora say to you about Ron Goldman?
A: That Cora said that they had seen each other sometimes, they had coffee together, that he had driven her car. and she didn't say they were dating, but I think they were -- there was an interest
Q: By whom?
A: I think by both. I don't know that for sure, but they had seen each other.
Q: And Cora was telling you about Nicole and Ron.
A: Yes.
Q: Did Cora tell you that O.J. Simpson knew that there might be an interest between Ron and Nicole?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Did she say anything about O.J. ever meeting or seeing Ron Goldman?
A: I don't believe so. Not that I can remember,
Q: Has anyone else ever told you that?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any information about that?
A: No.
Q: Is that all that Cora told you about Ron Goldman?
A: I think so.
Q: Did Cora tell you anything about Goldman's activities on the night he was murdered?
A: That he was a waiter. I think. That's all.
Q: Is that it?
A: That I can remember, yes.
Q: Did she tell you -- did Cora tell you anything about what Nicole's plans were the evening she was murdered after she got back from dinner at Mezzaluna?
A: It was I think that she was -- someone was coming over, and there was gonna be a get-together and --
Q: Cora told you that?
A: Yes.
Q: Cora said that Nicole was meeting a man that evening?
A: I believe it was a man and someone else, a woman, too.
Q: Two people were coming over?
A: I thought so.
Q: That's what Cora told you?
A: I believe so.
Q: And did Cora indicate who these people were?
A: I thought it might have been Faye Resnick.
Q: Faye was in a treatment center at that time.
A: That's who I thought it was, was Faye. But that one person was coming over. I thought it was Faye was the other person, and it was a girl that was involved.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I just want to object to you testifying.
THE WITNESS: That's all I can remember.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So let me get this straight. You had a conversation with Cora Fishman after Nicole's death --
A: Yeah.
Q: -- and Cora told you that she -- that Faye and some other woman were going to visit Nicole?
A: No. Just Faye and Nicole with someone else. and I thought it was Ron.
Q: That's something you think Cora told you?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: When do you think that conversation occurred?
A: About a month after everything.
Q: And did you know that Faye Resnick was in a treatment center?
A: I didn't know that. I mean, I heard about stuff in the news and all, but I didn't know at the time.
Q: You didn't know at the time?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson ever talk to you about his public image?
A: Yeah, I guess that people like him.
Q: I'm not asking you to guess what it is.
A: Oh, that people liked him, and I think he was on the board of a few different companies.
Q: Did he ever talk to you about the type of image that he believed he had in the public or with the public?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did he ever tell you about the type of public image that he wanted to project?
A: I don't remember. It was -- I don't remember.
Q: Did he tell you that he wanted to be liked by people?
A: Yes. That it was important to be liked by people, yes.
Q: What else did he say about that subject?
A: I just -- it was O.J., and he had to have people like him. I think it was a thing, he liked to be around people.
Q: This is what he told you?
A: From what I can remember, he said that he liked people liking him, and giving autographs was very important to him, and people would come by and ask for autographs all the time or sign certain things, and -- -
Q: Did he ever complain to you about his celebrity status?
A: I don't know how the question -- I don't understand it.
Q: Did he ever complain to you about being a celebrity?
A: No.
Q: He didn't want to be?
A: No.
Q: Or he didn't like being bothered by people in public?
A: No.
Q: Did he ever tell you that he was going to disguise himself to conceal his identity in public?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you that he was going to take his children to Knotts Berry Farm or Disneyland or some other amusement park and wear a disguise?
A: No.
Q: Do you know that he bought a disguise or obtained a disguise?
A: No,
Q: Do you know if he had any weapons in his home?
A: I heard he had weapons in his home.
Q: Did you hear about this before Nicole's death?
A: Yes.
Q: And from whom did you hear this?
A: From Nicole.
Q: What did Nicole tell you?
A: Nicole said he had a gun collection. That was it.
Q: Did you ever discuss Mr. Simpson's gun collection with him?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever discuss any knives -- -
A: No.
Q: -- that Mr. Simpson may have collected?
A: No.
Q: Going back to my prior question about interviews, who has interviewed you in this case?
A: The -- since the case started?
Q: Since the murders of Nicole and Ron Goldman.
A: Marcia Clark, numerous times with William Hodgeman. and Chris Darden and David Conn--
Q: Conn?
A: Conn. And Skip Taft, Shapiro -- I forgot his first--
Q: Robert?
A: Robert Shapiro. And--
Q: Weitzman?
A: Weitzman,
Q: Just once on the phone?
A: They said there was another one on the phone, but I don't remember. I think it was two times I've talked to him, but I remember one phone call.
Those detectives. private detectives on -- Bill Pavelick was one on the defense side. There was another guy who I don't remember his name.
Q: On the defense side?
A: Yeah. They had like a private investigating team.
Q: They came out to see you?
A: They came out to Bill Genego's office, and we met with them.
Also the police, the detectives on the police.
Q: Johnnie Cochran?
A: I went to Johnnie Cochran's office for about an hour or so, but he wasn't available, so they had -- a girl came in for a little bit and talked.
Q: What was her name?
A: She was -- the curly hair. She was on TV a few times.
Q: Why did you go to Johnnie Cochran's office?
A: They called and said, "Would you be willing to meet," and we said yes, so we went down there.
Q: And have you met with anybody on Mr. Simpson's current defense team?
A: Just here.
Q: Mr. Baker. Have you spoken to Mr. Baker?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: In the john. THE WITNESS: In the bathroom.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did he interview you in the bathroom?
A: He did not interview me in the bathroom. He said, "What ply tissue do you prefer?"
No, there was no interview in the bathroom.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: This is gonna be great, guys. The first one's the Dream Team, and it's now the Nightmare Team.
MR. PETROCELLI: You're the Little Dream Team.
Q: Okay. Who else -- Nobody else -- You wouldn't know, I guess. who Mr. Simpson's current lawyers are. or would you? Do you know who they are besides Mr. Baker?
A: That's --
Q: What about Mr. Bailey, did he interview you?
A: No, I didn't meet anybody.
Q: Were you consulted at all in connection with Mr. Simpson's video?
A: No. What video?
Q: The one that he's selling for 29.99.
A: No.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Plus shipping and handling.
MR. BREWER: 1-800-OJTELLS.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you ordered the video?
A: No.
Q: On the plaintiffs' side here, I interviewed you. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And anyone else?
A: No.
Q: Have you been interviewed by Mr. Brewer or Mr. Kelly?
A: No. I've talked to them but not interviewed. I don't -- it wasn't a set interview. no.
Q: Do you have any tape recordings of any of your interviews with lawyers?
A: I personally don't have anything, no. My lawyers might. I don't know. I don't.
Q: You don't have any documents or notes or anything like that -- --
A: Yes.
Q: -- of your discussions with the attorneys?
A: Yes.
Q: Where are they?
A: Michael has it of the Shapiro interview, and they -- the prosecution gave me a binder of my preliminary -- --
Q: Your preliminary hearing testimony?
A: Yes, my preliminary hearing testimony. And the Shapiro interview, some of the cops that talked to me, like the notes or the typed -- up interview and -- --
Q: The police took a statement from you and showed it to you?
A: They had me read over in their car, yeah. A long time ago. And I think that's it, unless Bill Genego you can call. He might have some stuff.
Q: Were you ever subpoenaed by anyone in the criminal case to turn over documents or materials?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Do you have in your possession now any letters or notes from Nicole?
A: Not that I -- I might have. Mr. Eliot might have those. I think he does, not me.
Q: What about from O.J. Simpson;
A: No.
Q: And who is Marc Eliot?
A: Marc Eliot wrote a book. "The Whole Truth" book.
Q: You did not author that book. Is that right?
A: I did not.
Q: You sat for a number of hours of interviews for that book?
A: Yes.
Q: But ultimately did not agree to collaborate on it.
A: Yes.
Q: Is that right?
A: That is correct.
Q: Do you have recordings of all of your sessions?
A: Nothing.
MR. PETROCELLI: I have a subpoena that I served on you -- --
MR. PLOTKIN: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: -- which asks in effect for anything relating to this case.
Is there anything that you have to give me?
MR. PLOTKIN: There are no documents to my knowledge of which you did not already have copies, with the exception of one, and I believe that would be the Eliot manuscript, and I don't have a copy of it.
THE WITNESS: I think--
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you?
A: I think Bill Genego has everything.
Q: He has -- what do you mean by "everything"?
A: I think he has the -- a cassette tape and the manuscript, manuscript of the -- his first draft of Eliot's. I believe Bill has it.
Q: Then the subpoena came in. did you notify Genego about it?
A: I didn't get it -- Oh, the subpoena
Q: On you for this deposition.
A: I didn't -- I think Bill knows, but I didn't tell him. I never received -- it came to Mike's office, I think.
MR. PLOTKIN: Yes, it came to my office.
MR. PETROCELLI: If there is any thing that Mr. Genego has that is responsive to my subpoena, Mr. Plotkin, can you make that available?
MR. PLOTKIN: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you -- you testified yesterday that you told Mr. Simpson when you saw him out near the limousine that you had heard some noises.
A: Yes.
Q: And then he said something like. you know, "you go that way. I'll go this way." and you told the rest of that story. Do you remember that?
A: Yes. I do.
Q: When you told Mr. Simpson that you had heard noises, did you tell Mr. Simpson when you had heard the noises?
A: No. I did not. I didn't say that.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson ask you when you had heard the noises?
A: No.
Q: From your bedroom in the guest house, can you see the upstairs of Mr. Simpson's bedroom?
A: Yeah, I can see the windows and part of, you know, his room.
Q: Can you see whether or not his lights are on?
A: Yeah, I can see if the lights were on.
Q: Can you see whether or not his television is on?
A: I could if -- yes, I could. I could tell if it was on.
Q: How could you tell from your room downstairs whether his television was on in his bedroom upstairs?
A: You could see the glare off his window and you can see part of the TV screen.
Q: Have you observed from the vantage point of your room the television flashing in his bedroom?
A: I could tell -- if I was gonna come out of my room, I could see through the door and all that, oh, he had the TV on. He must be watching TV.
Q: Now, when you came out of the -- of your room to go investigate the sounds that you heard --
A: Yes.
Q: -- and you went out into the backyard to begin your route around the house--
A: Yeah.
Q: -- did you notice if Mr. Simpson's bedroom lights were on?
A: I thought they were off. I thought the lights in the bottom were off, and I thought the lights upstairs were on. In my testimony before I always thought the lights upstairs were on.
Q: When you say 'upstairs." you mean Mr. Simpson's bedroom?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you observe any sign or flashing or any other indication that the television in Mr. Simpson's bedroom was on?
A: I did not notice it.
Q: Then you walked around the property, you said you thought that the lights downstairs were off?
A: I thought they were off, yes.
Q: Okay. And when you walked around the path, saw the limousine and then walked down the driveway to the garage to investigate the sounds, did you observe whether the lights downstairs in the front of the house were on or off?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: By the "front of the house," do you mean the coach lights at the entrance, or do you mean interior lights?
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I don't know what "coach lights" mean, but let's talk about interior lights.
THE WITNESS: I believe, from what I recollect, the lights in the bottom were not on, in the bottom of the --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Inside the house?
A: Inside the house there was dark.
Q: Now, Mr. Baker just interjected a comment about "coach lights." Do you remember if -- do you know what he's talking about, by the way, what coach lights are?
A: I thought the coach lights were lights that were the small ones on the path, but now I know coach lights are on the door, brighter lights.
MR. PETROCELLI: That what you mean, Mr. --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah, that we've been talking about for five days in Mr. Simpson's deposition.
MR. PETROCELLI: You mean the lights up near the door.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Sure, the two lights on either side of the door.
MR. PETROCELLI: On the outside.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Front lights, either side of the door.
MR. PLOTKIN: He wasn't here for those five days.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I understand.
MR. KELLY: Nor does he live there
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, I asked you about coach lights yesterday, and I'm glad Mr. Baker brought this up--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: So am I now.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: -- because I was a little confused yesterday because you referred to coach lights as lights that were apparently on the ground. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: And your recollection was that the lights on the ground were on or off?
A: The ground lights I thought were on. They're usually on.
Q: And these lights that are being called coach lights that were outside the front door, left and right of the door --
A: I recollect those being off.
Q: Now, do you recollect those being off as you went by the door the first time to investigate?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you -- when you went by the door the first time to investigate, did you go past the Bentley to get to the garage?
A: Yes, I walked by. a you walked by the Bentley?
A: Yes.
Q: The Bentley was in the driveway?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see anything behind the Bentley?
A: I don't remember. l don't think so. I think it was -- there was nothing there.
Q: In other words, did you see this black knapsack that later on you saw?
A: At that time I believe I did not see it.
Q: And then you walked by the Bentley and you go investigate. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you came back and walked back to the limousine -- to the area where the limousine was waiting outside, you then let the limousine in. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So on your way back to letting the limousine in, did you notice if any of the downstairs interior lights had been turned on?
A: I thought the lights were on. I thought then lights were on.
Q: And did you also think that the downstairs coach lights on the outside of the entryway door were on?
A: I think so. I think they were on.
Q: Now, at any time during this trip in -- to investigate the sounds and go back to let the limo driver in, did you see O.J. Simpson?
A: I -- in my head I remember always seeing the dark sweat suit. The time, I don 't know. I don 't know. I was investigating sounds. I always have a picture in my head of the dark suit. and I can't distinguish exact time, but it was the time that the limo driver was -- I think -- I don't know if he was already out or in, but I just remember that always having a dark suit.
Q: Well. I'm focusing on a period of time now before you let the limo driver in. Okay?
A: I can't --
Q: Let me ask you this question: When you came back from investigating the noises the first time and you walked back towards the Ashford gate, you had to walk by the Bentley. Right?
A: Yes.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: When you said "by the Bentley," I mean, I'm not sure what--
MR. PETROCELLI: The Bentley is in that area. and he has to go past it.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: It's 20 feet away.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, Mr. Baker, let's get out--
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Let's do that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let's do that.
Q: I am showing you what we have previously seen yesterday. This is Plaintiffs' 27. and this is a sketch of the Rockingham property, and I cannot represent that this is to scale. I just don't know.
Anyway, you told us yesterday that you -- when you came out from this pathway behind the house on the north side -- Do you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: -- you walked out onto the driveway. You did not stop to wave or signal in any way to the limousine. Is that right?
A: Correct.
Q: You didn't even know who the driver was. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And you came down the limousine and you walked around the garage. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: To go investigate.
A: Correct.
Q: Now, where was the Bentley?
A: (Indicating.)
Q: Okay. You are pointing to this little alcove. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And did you see, when you came by that time to investigate, whether there was any piece of luggage --
A: I don't recall.
Q: -- on the ground behind the Bentley or on the lawn, for that matter?
A: I'm pretty sure there was not.
Q: Now, at some point --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Can you answer his question? Did you check and see?
MR. PETROCELLI: I didn't ask that question. I didn't ask that question. That will be your question.
Q: Did you see it?
A: I don't recollect seeing it.
Q: You do not recall seeing it.
A: No
Q: Now, when you came back from investigating and went to let the limousine driver, did you see it then?
And by "it," I mean any piece of luggage like the black knapsack that you later saw.
A: On my second trip?
Q: On the return from the first trip.
A: I don't remember seeing it, no.
Q: Okay. Then you went and let the limousine driver in. Right?
A: I believe so. Yes.
Q: And the limousine pulls in. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And then you had a little conversation with the limousine driver, and then you went back to investigate a second time. Right?
A: I think I put the golf clubs in.
Q: Yes. you did. I am not trying to, by the way, have you testify about the whole thing again. I'm just sort of cutting to particular points. But you 're right, that you said yesterday.
After you put the golf clubs in and conversed with the driver. You then went back to investigate a second time. Is that right?
A: Correct.
Q: And when you came back to investigate the second time. did you see the black knapsack or other piece of luggage was --
A: I think --
Q: -- at the base of the Bentley?
A: I think I noticed it being there.
Q: When you investigated the second time?
A: Yes. came back.
Q: On the way back?
A: Yeah.
Q: On the way back. So you turned around and then headed back towards the house.
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And did you pick it up at that time
A: No.
Q: -- to take it back to the house
A: No.
Q: When you saw it, did you wonder what it was?
A: I believe so. I saw a bag there. I didn't know if it was part of the trip or not, the packing, but I saw a bag.
Q: And then you walked back to the limousine. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And then Later on, you told us moments later, after you went in the house with Simpson and came back out, you then went to retrieve that black knapsack. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And is that the same knapsack that you believe you had previously seen?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you attempted to retrieve it, Mr. Simpson said?
A: "I'll get it. Okay, I got it."
Q: And then he overtook you to get it?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you see what he did with it?
A: I didn't. I never saw it again.
Q: You don't know if he took it in the back seat with him?
A: I don't remember at all. I don't remember seeing him pick it up or anything. I was walking back already when the action took place.
Q: When Mr. Simpson passed by you to get the black knapsack, was he carrying anything?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Did you see him at any time go down to the Rockingham gate, go out the gate and go to the Bronco?
A: No.
Q: Did you see him go to the Bronco?
A: No.
Q: Did you see him go to the Rockingham gate?
A: No.
Q: Did you see him open the Rockingham gate?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if the Rockingham gate can be opened manually without requiring the gate to open electronically?
A: I don't think it can. I don't think that gate can.
Q: Can you somehow slip in and out without the gate opening --
A: No.
Q: -- all the way?
A: I don't think so.
Q: You don't know of any way of doing it. Right?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever tried getting in that gate without opening it up with the key?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether you can get onto the property from the [Name Deleted]' property directly to the south?
A: I believe you can.
Q: You can.
A: Yes.
Q: And how can you do so? Well, could you do so in June of 1994?
A: I believe you could, yes.
Q: And how could you have done so in June of 1994?
A: I think just walking their front way.
Q: Show me on the map.
A: I think you can just get in that way (Indicating).
Q: Onto the [Name Deleted]' property. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. In other words, you just walk on their property. Right?
A: Right.
Q: Is there any opening in the shrubs or in the fence to your knowledge that existed in June of l994 by which you could have then simply walked onto the Simpson property?
A: To my knowledge, I don't know of any.
Q: Did you ever -- There is a fence there on the south side. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever jump that fence yourself?
A: No.
Q: When you went to investigate the voices the first time and then walked back, is it when you walked back to the limousine that you saw the interior lights on at that time?
A: I can't be positive. I remember in my testimony at some point I said the doors were opened and I thought the lights were on, the front doors--
Q: I see.
A: -- and I don't remember the exact timing of that, but I remember saying in testimony, "The doors were open and the lights were on," and my concentration was still on the thumps --
Q: I'm not trying to ask you about what your testimony was.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Let him finish, though.
THE WITNESS: Oh. okay.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I just want you to tell me what your recollection is of the events of that night.
A: That I remember at that -- I can't remember the exact trip -- could have been the second one -- where I thought the doors were open and those coach lights were on and the lights were on downstairs, from what I remember.
Q: And could it have been the return of the first trip that you then saw the lights on and doors open for the first time?
A: It could have been.
Q: Okay. Now, at anytime before you let that Limousine driver in, do you believe you saw a person who you believed to be O.J. Simpson?
A: It could have been. It could have been--
Q: When you say, "It could have been," where could it have been?
A: Right here (Indicating). Could have been happening here (Indicating).
Q: You are pointing to the area where the Rockingham --
Excuse me, Mr. Simpson?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He's discussing something with his lawyer.
MR. PETROCELLI: I know, but he's discussing it audibly at a time when I'm trying to complete my examination of the witness, and it's interfering.
THE WITNESS: There was -- that I -- in my head there was just --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I want to go back to where we were before Mr. Simpson interjected. Okay?
You said that you saw a person who you believed could have been O.J. Simpson on -- at the corner where the Rockingham driveway intersects the Ashford -- I'm sorry -- where the driveway coming from Rockingham intersects the driveway coming from Ashford at that corner there. Right?
A: Yeah, I remember seeing O.J. outside. I don't know if it was at the time I let the limo in or not, but it was the dark sweat suit, and that I remember.
Q: You have a clear image of seeing O.J. in a dark sweat suit?
A: Yes.
Q: And you have a clear image of seeing O.J. in a dark sweat suit at that spot that you just indicated where I am pointing to (Indicating)?
A: Yes.
Q: The corner right there (Indicating)?
A: Yes.
Q: Sort of behind where the Bentley would be?
A: Well, I think it was more here -- it was I thought walking right around here (Indicating).
Q: Walking?
A: I was over here (Indicating). I think it was kind of in a walking mode.
Q: Walking in what direction?
A: It looked like to the door.
Q: Walking to the front door.
A: Right.
Q: So from the general direction of the Bentley?
A: Yes.
Q: So you believe you may -- you believe you saw O.J. Simpson walking from the general vicinity of the Bentley to the general vicinity of the front entrance of the door.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And when you saw that person, you thought it was O.J. Simpson. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You didn't think it was a prowler, did you?
A: No. It was O.J.
Q: Did he have on a black robe?
A: No.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He's not a judge .
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You said he had on a black sweat suit.
A: Yes.
Q: Can you describe that sweat suit for us?
A: I thought it was that one I described before. It was like a black-all black. I thought + there was a white type zipper.
Q: Was it a two-piece? One-piece? Jogging? I mean, can you give us a little more description?
A: I think it was a jogging -- I think it reminded my of like a jogging/tennis outfit. and black with a white-kind of a sharp one. It just was black with white -- like if this zipper went all the way down like this (Indicating), it was white, and then black. Black pants.
Q: And did you notice the shoes?
A: I didn't.
Q: Were they dark shoes?
A: It could have been, but I don't know. I don't know.
Q: If you thought that person was Simpson. did you say something to him?
A: That's what I don't know, if it was the time that happened. I remember seeing like the dark sweat suit. I thought that was the suit -- the entire time was the dark suit. So I don't know if Alan Park was in yet or not. I can't get it in my mind the exact timing of that, of that event, but I remember a dark sweat suit in my head and O.J. in a dark suit.
Q: But you also remembered seeing a person walk from the vicinity of the Bentley to the front door.
A: Going towards the front door. I didn't see anybody go in. I don't know if the doors were open at that time or not. I can't associate in my head if the doors were open yet or not.
I just have that image that O.J. was in a dark sweat suit.
When that person -- when you saw O.J. walking towards the front door, do you know if the lights on the outside were on or off?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Or the lights on the inside of the house, were they on or off?
A: I don't -- I can't remember. I don't remember if they were on or off.
Q: After you saw Mr. Simpson heading in that direction of the front door, do you remember what you did next?
A: That's when -- I don't know if that's when I let the limo driver or if he was in already or not. I'm trying to remember if that's the timing of when I let him in. I can't remember the exact moment if he was already in or not.
There was just so much that was going on, with the call to Rachel back there, the noises I heard, the little flashlight, and I couldn't associate it. and I think that's when I let the limo driver in, but I'm not l00 percent positive. I just don't know. I just don't know.
Q: You're not a hundred percent positive if that occurred before or after you saw the--
A: Yes.
Q: -- let the driver in?
A: Correct.
Q: What's your best recollection? Was it before or after you let the limo in?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you have a best recollection.
THE WITNESS: I can't recollect when it was. I don't know for sure. I don't know for sure when it was.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I am not asking you for sure. I am asking you what your best recollection is, whether you saw Mr. Simpson heading towards the front door before or after you let the limo driver in.
MR. PLOTKIN: Don't guess. If you don't know, say you don't remember.
THE WITNESS: I just don't know.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well --
THE WITNESS: I don't know because this is so long ago and there's been so many news stories. that I'm so confused. So I don't know if it's before or after. I can't -- I don't -- BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I am asking what your best recollection is. Do you have an answer?
A: I don't know. I can't say.
Q: You let the driver in. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And no one had let him in before you let the driver in. Right?
A: I let the driver in, correct.
Q: Was Mr. Simpson -- what pace was Mr. Simpson walking? Quickly? Slowly?
A: I --
MR. PLOTKIN: When?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you saw him go from the area of the Bentley to the entranceway of the house in dark sweats.
A: I thought it was in a fast motion.
Q: A fast motion. And we will have to stop now because they want to change the tape.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. of Volume II. The time is approximately 3:15, and we are off the record.
(Recess.)
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 84 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 3:38. This is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume II.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: We are back on the record after the tape change. and I've gotten copies of what was previously marked as Exhibit 27. We have re-marked a Xerox copy of that as Exhibit 84. Mr. Kaelin, I am going to ask you to make some markings on this.
MR. PLOTKIN: Can I have one?
MR. PETROCELLI: Oh. sure. I'm sorry. And then we will hand out copies of this at the end.
Q: When you -- could you with blue pen circumscribe your path starting with the departure from your room -- before you do it, let me tell you what I want you to do -- departure from your room around to the driveway when you went to first investigate the sounds and then around the garage where you went?
Okay? Do you understand my question?
MR. PLOTKIN: I think it will make it easier to make it with a marking pen
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. Do you understand the question?
A: Make -- draw my route .
Q: Right from your room, yeah, and then to where you investigated the --
A: The noise the first time
Q: The first time, correct. (Witness complies.)
Q: And that's where you stopped.
A: Yeah.
Q: Because you were frightened. A: Right I picked up the gate and came back that far.
Q: When you made that initial route, your testimony is you did not see any lights on in the inside, you did not see the coach lights on the Outside, and you did not see the knapsack behind the Bentley. Is that right?
A: As far as I remember, yes.
Q: By the way, following up on Mr. Baker's suggested question about 20 minutes ago, did you check to see if the knapsack was behind the Bentley or if anything was behind the Bentley?
A: I don't believe that I did. I was kinda focused on that.
Q: Now, during the time of that entire route, of course, the limo driver is still outside the Ashford gate. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And you had not spoken to him yet. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: And did you take that walk rather briskly?
A: Yes.
Q: And was it a matter of seconds for you to get, let's say, from this path to the garage?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And from the beginning of the driveway --
A: Right.
Q: - -- where the path terminates to the garage is a matter of seconds. Correct?
A: Correct. Correct.
Q: Now --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Everything is a matter of seconds. It's just how many.
BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: It's a few seconds. Right? Correct?
A: (Nods head.)
Q: You're shaking your head. You have to answer audibly.
A: It has to be from there to there (Indicating), I'm thinking 10 seconds.
Q: Could it be less than 10?
A: Could be.
Q: Okay. Now, on the way back from that trip of investigating the sounds --
A: Uh-huh.
Q: -- is that when you recall seeing O.J. Simpson go into the house?
A: I don't know for a fact. I just -- I don't know. I just don't know if that's when I did see him or not.
Q: Okay.
A: In my mind I saw the dark outfit, but I do not know when.
Q: Okay. Tell me when -- tell me -- excuse me. Describe the route with your pen -- hold on before you make a mark -- that you saw Mr. Simpson take from the vicinity of the Bentley into the vicinity of the entryway, as you previously testified. You said he was moving --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Do we have another color?
MR. PETROCELL1: It's not going to Xerox.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Regardless, we are going to have this as -- It's okay. I mean, whatever you want.
MR. PETROCELL1: You can do a squiggly line.
Q: Why don't you do a squiggly line
MR. BREWER: Designate line 1, Line 2.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Just put a dotted Line. That's all.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: A dotted line where you first picked up Simpson walking in the direction of the -- not where you were --
A: Right.
Q: -- where he was, where you first picked him up and then where you last saw him.
A: I thought it was right about here (Indicating).
Q: That's what you saw.
A: I believe so.
Q: Now, that squiggly line -- Mr. Simpson just asked, "Who was that? You" I think you're saying that that was Mr. Simpson. Right?
A: I believe, yes, that's Mr. Simpson.
Q: That squiggly line is what you saw Mr. Simpson doing: Walking in the vicinity of the entryway to the door. right, to the house?
A: Yeah. I saw him there. I believe he was walking to the house. I don t know if he was walking in or out. I just saw --
Q: And what did he have on?
A: Black sweats.
Q: And what shoes did he have on?
A: I don't know.
Q: Are you sure?
A: Yeah, I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Now, put an X where you were at that time that -- point in time that you saw Mr. Simpson heading towards the house.
A: I thought it was right here (Indicating).
Q: Take it a little bit more discernible.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Circle maybe. Okay. X.
MR. PETROCELLI: X.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Perfect.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You're the ultimate politician. You did both a circle and an X. Okay?
A: And now I am going to have Paul Lynne in the center to block. Circle gets the square. I'm sorry.
Q: When you -- Where did you then next go after you turned and saw Mr. Simpson?
A: If this was at the time -- I don't recollect l00 percent, I don't know if the limo driver was in yet or not, but after my first trip I went to the gate box and let him in. Seeing O.J. there, I don't know if it was on that first trip or not. I just saw the dark sweat suit, him there at that time. The exact time, I just don't remember.
Q: Let me ask you this question: When you went to open the gate for the limo driver, did you wonder to yourself, why is the limo driver still out there?
A: Yeah, I just -- he was out there. Yeah, from coming in there, and then I started saying to myself, "I should open the limo."
Q: Did you wonder to yourself. "Why is the limo driver still out there. because I've seen O.J. already?"
A: I just didn't know. I didn't know
Q: But did that thought enter your mind, that the limo driver is still out there, you had just seen O.J.: what s going on?
MR. PHILLIP BAKER: Leading.
THE W1TNESS: So much on my mind, I just -- 1 don't -- I can't -- I just can't answer it 100 percent. I just can't. It's on my mind --
BY MR. PETROCELLI: Well, give me your best recollection. I know you are trying very hard --
A: It's so incredible that I just -- can't answer it where it was -- I was thinking of the noise. I was thinking of calling her back, and --
Q: No, no.
A: I know. Everything was in my mind at the time that I can't answer the question.
Q: Stay with me. Okay? I'm trying to ask a specific question now. Okay?
Had you already seen O.J. when you let in the Limo?
A: I don't know. I don't know.
Q: And when you went -- when you let in the limousine, did you think to yourself, "I wonder why he 's still out there. because I've already seen O.J"? Did that thought enter your mind?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Leading. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I just don't know. I don't know if that's what I was thinking. I don't know if the door was already open and the coach lights were on. I just can't get it in my mind, the thought of it -- of that happening, if the lights were on or not, if I saw O.J., that the doors were already open when I saw him there. Had the doors -- were they opened already when saw him, that's what I'm confused on. It's such a -- it's -- that's what I'm troubled with.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I understand, but I am trying to get to the truth here. Okay?
Draw the path that you took from the garage to the limo when you went to open the limo box.
A: I think I --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: The "limo box'"? I'm not sure I understand that question.
MR. PETROCELLI: I'm sorry. That was a bad question.
Q: When you went to let the limo driver in, what path did you take from the garage to the limo?
MR. PLOTKIN: You mean the gate box?
A: Oh.
Q: I mean draw a continuous line.
A: I think it was here (Indicating).
Q: Yeah
A: I think I saw golf clubs.
Q: Yeah.
A: And then I went over here (Indicating).
Q: Okay. And then you let the limo in. Right?
A: I believe that was it.
Q: Now, when you took that path, the lights were already on. Right?
A: I think so. I think the door might have been opened.
Q: Okay. And then you let the limo driver in?
A: I think so, yes.
Q: Okay. And then he came in.
A: Yes. I came -- he came there after the second trip. That I know. It was my -- I was going -- after this first trip it was coming there --
Q: Hold on.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Let him finish.
MR. PETROCELLI: But he is not answering my question.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: But that doesn't matter, understand it does, but what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter in terms of your interrupting him. He should be able to finish his answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Kaelin. when you then -- when the limo driver was let in by you, okay, and the car came in, you said yesterday that the dog -- you called Chachi --
A: Chachi.
Q: -- to make sure that Chachi wasn't going to get run over. Right? Did the Ashford street open?
A: After I pushed the button, yes.
Q: Yeah. By the way, did Chachi run out the gate?
A: No. Chachi was just by a patch of grass on this side (Indicating), and then when he saw the doors open -- the doors -- the windows open --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Gate.
THE WITNESS: -- gate open thank you -- he kind of cut in front and I had to make sure he got there before the limo would hit him, and h went to the patch.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Chachi didn't run out in the street. Right?
A: No.
Q: Then when the car pulled up, the driver came out, you had conversation with him. and that's when you went the second time t look. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, could you tell us how far you went the second time that you looked by putting a number 2 at that point where you went down?
A: Well, this is the garage (Indicating) Around here there's another gate (Indicating --
Q: Yeah. A: -- and I think it was about here that I got to the front, right about there (Indicating).
Q: Put a 2 there.
A: 2.
Q: Yeah. The number 2. Okay. That's the second time you went, and that's where you stopped. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And at no point did you go farther than that. Right?
A: No, I didn't go past that gate.
Q: You never went past where you indicated number "2" on Exhibit 84?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. At that first point in time when you saw Mr. Simpson, as represented by the squiggly line, and you were still back near the garage -- Are you with me?
A: Yes.
Q: -- at that point in time did you say anything to Mr. Simpson?
A: I don't believe --
Q : Did you talk to him?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Okay.
A: I think the first --
Q: I am not -- I am just asking you
A: Okay.
Q: -- the question. Then when you saw him moving towards the door, did you talk to him?
A: I don't think so.
Q: When you went back to the garage the second time to investigate the sounds, did you see the knapsack behind the Bentley?
A: I think that's when I noticed it: Coming back the second time.
Q: Coming back the second time.
A: I think that's --
Q: Were you checking to see?
A: NO.
Q: You just happened to notice it?
A: Yeah. I think it just stood out, I believe. I just saw a knapsack there.
Q: And you didn't pick it up, as you said, at that time.
A: I did not.
Q: Was there any lighting on the property near that Bentley or behind that Bentley?
A: They have lighting around the -- it's the dim light, it's those track lighting, and that ' s what I was on. I believe, those -- around the grass areas, like lamp Lights.
Q: Mushroom Lights?
A: I think that's -- they were mushroom lights. But that -- that type of light (Indicating).
Q: Did you ever see a golf net on Mr. Simpson's property during the six months that you lived there or any time beforehand?
A: No.
Q: Do you know what I mean by a '"golf net"? A net you would hit golf balls into?
A: I didn't see one, no.
Q: When you were -- when Mr. Simpson was watching TV on the 12th of June when you saw him, where was he watching TV?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Before or after the recital?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You can answer Mr. Baker's question. A: I don t follow the question of the TV. What --
Q: Before or after the recital, do you recall Mr. Simpson watching TV at any time on June 12th?
A: No. I didn't see him watching TV, no.
Q: On June 12th?
A: June 12 is Sunday. Correct?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: When Mr. Simpson watches TV downstairs, , do you know what room he watches TV?
A: Usually in the living room or the den where the big screen is.
Q: In the den where the big screen is, what --
A: There is also a TV though, that could be on. It's in the nook area.
Q: Yeah.
A: That sometimes can be watched if the --
Q: Can you write that on Exhibit 84, where that would be. where that big TV is?
A: Okay. Should I put both TVs down. Would that help you out?
Q: First put "den," d -- e -- n.
A: Okay.
Q: And can those lights be seen -- when the den lights are on or the television lights are on in the den, do you know if they can be seen from the Ashford Street?
A: I don't think they could.
Q: Do you know if they could be seen if you were coming around this path?
A: Yes. I could.
Q: And did you see the den lights on downstairs when you came around the path?
A: I don't remember them on.
Q: It is your best recollection that they were not on. Right?
A: They were not on.
Q: Okay. Where is the TV in the kitchen nook? Put "nook" there.
A: The front entrance, nook, TV. Nook.
Q: Okay. And when that TV is on, do you know whether it can be seen from right outside the driveway there?
A: It might be able to, because you could turn that TV around.
Q: And if that light is on in the nook. could that be seen right outside the driveway?
A: Pretty sure it could, yeah.
Q: When you took your first route to go behind the garage, did you see those lights on?
A: I did not see them on.
Q: Okay. You know these mushroom lights we've been talking about on the ground? How high off the ground do they extend? Do you know?
A. I think they're about a foot and a half maybe up.
Q: 18 inches. Right?
A: (No audible response.)
Q: When you saw Mr. Simpson near the time when he was getting into the limousine, did he appear out of breath to you?
A: NO. I mean when I saw him, no.
Q: Frazzled?
A: Hurried.
Q: Hurried.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's all I have for now. I will reserve the night on conclusion of the examination.
MR. BREWER: NO questions at this time.
MR. KELLY: NO questions.
EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Mr. Kaelin, you gave a recorded statement on June 14th, 1994 in Mr. Simpson's office with Bob Shapiro. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And at that time you talked about events that occurred less than hours previous to that, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: And you have a copy of that statement. Correct?
A: Yes, somewheres.
Q: And you've read it over since June 14th, 1994, have you not?
A: I haven't read it since -- probably during the trial, I read it.
Q: And everything you said in that statement was true and correct. Is that true?
A: I believe so.
Q: And you testified before the Grand Jury in June of 1994, did you not?
A: I did.
Q: And everything you said to the Grand Jury was true and correct at that time, was it not?
A: I think so.
Q: And you testified at the preliminary hearing in July of 1994, did you not?
A: I did.
Q: And everything you said at the preliminary hearing was true and correct. Is that right?
A: From what I know, yes.
Q: And then you testified again at the trial in 1995.True?
A: Yes.
Q: And everything you said at the trial was true and correct.
A: Yes.
Q: And did you ever go back and look to see if any -- and compare any of the statements that you made at the trial. the preliminary hearing or the Grand Jury testimony or the statement of June l 4th, 1994?
A: Did I ever look back at that stuff?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Did you ever attempt to make a comparison of your testimony in any of those proceedings to any of the other proceedings?
A: Well, I think at certain points I was in with lawyers. Like prepping, and that the testimony was out and we went over things.
Q: Okay. Now, when you met with Mr. Petrocelli, do you want to tell us when that was?
A: The dates were I think on last Tuesday -- I don't know the dates. Within a week.
Q: All right. And you say "the dates." Did you meet with him on more than one day?
A: Yes. Two days, two afteroons.
Q: All right. And where did you meet?
A: We met here and -- yeah. I think both times here. No, not both times here. One here, and I'm trying to think of the first time.
Q: Are you telling me that you've met with him on two days last week, and you can't remember where it occurred?
MR. PETROCELLI: It's argumentative. I object.
MR. -- ROBERT BAKER: You can have a standing objection to everything.
MR. PETROCELLI: And sitting.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Perfect.
THE WITNESS: I believe in Michael's office.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: That's your best recollection as you sit here today: That last week one day you met here and one day you met in Michael's office. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: How long did you meet on the first day? Was that a Tuesday, you say?
A: Yes.
Q: You sure it was a Tuesday?
A: I don't know the exact date, no.
Q: Well, we're only nine days away. Was it Wednesday?
MR. PLOTKIN: Do you want the dates, or do you want his recollection?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: No, I want to examine the witness, if I may.
THE WITNESS: I believe it was Friday.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right.
A: And then on Tuesday.
Q: Okay. So Tuesday, was that at the office we're presently in?
A: Yes.
Q: And Friday, that was at your attorney's office?
A: Yes.
Q: And what time did you start the meeting on Tuesday?
A: On Tuesday, about 2:00 o'clock.
Q: And how long did the meeting go?
A: I'd say till about 6:30, 7:00.
Q: And who was present?
A: Mr. Petrocelli, Michael Plotkin, myself.
Q: And what did you discuss for those five hours?
A: Going over my testimony from the previous trial.
Q: And what testimony did you go over, Mr. Kaelin?
A: Things that we're going over right now.
Q: I mean, did you say you went over your previous trial testimony?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Did Mr. Petrocelli bring the transcript of the trial of your testimony?
A: There was testimony from -- they had the court documents of the trial, transcripts.
Q: Was it only of your testimony, Mr. Kaelin?
A: That we went over? I believe so, yes.
Q: Did he have transcripts of other witnesses besides you when he met with you last Tuesday at this office?
A: We went over mine, but there was a book of it, but we didn't go over the other -- what other people had said.
Q: And did you review with Mr. Petrocelli the testimony that you had given at the trial?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you review all of the testimony that you had given at the trial
A: Not everything.
Q: Did you review the transcript. including the three or four days that you testified? Did you see every day that you had testified?
A: I had that myself.
Q: All right. And he brought it along as well?
A: Well, no. I was gonna go through it on my own, and I didn't go through all of it. I just went through as much as I wanted. and I got that from Michael Plotkin.
Q: And did Mr. Petrocelli do this last Tuesday? Did he tell you that he was doing this to prepare you for your deposition this week?
A: Well, it kinda went through Michael, the call, and I agreed to meet.
Q: It was your understanding, was it not, Mr. Kaelin, that you were doing this so you could prepare yourself to be examined by Mr. Petrocelli this week. Correct?
A: To go through questions.
Q: Yeah, and being prepared to be examined by Mr. Petrocelli this week. True?
A: I guess it was just going over some of the questions, but it wasn't -- it was topics of what would be questioned. It wasn't specific questions. It was certain things that I should go over.
Q: And what were those topics, Mr. Kaelin?
A: Things we went over already today.
Q: Well just enumerate for me all the topics that you went over on the first day for five hours.
A: We went over background history.
Q: What do you mean by that?
A: Background of myself, O.J.. . Nicole.
Q: How long did that take?
A: Two hours. I mean, it wasn't -- there was a lot of other kind of talk going on, too.
Q: What do you mean. "a lot of other kind of talk going on"?
A: I was in Michael's office. He was taking calls, so there would be, you know, quiet -- I mean times when he would talk about sports or something, and it wasn't all just trial.
Q: Okay. And so the background history took a couple of hours. Is that correct?
A: Yeah, I think so.
Q: Okay. What was the next topic you talked about?
A: June 11th and 12th.
Q: Did anybody have a tape recorder on when this was going on?
A: No.
Q: Is there a reason they didn't?
MR. PETROCELLI: Calls for speculation. How is he supposed to know?
THE Witness: I don't know.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: You've made your objection.
THE WITNESS: I didn't ask for one, I guess. I don't know.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Was anybody taking notes during this period of time? For example, was Mr. Petrocelli taking notes?
A: I think so.
Q: Did he ever make available to you the notes that he was taking that day?
A: If I -- I never asked for notes.
Q: So he never volunteered to give you his notes?
A: No. I never asked for notes.
Q: Now, did Mr. Petrocelli ever suggest to you any answers to any questions?
A: No.
Q: Did he ask you, as he has for the last day and a half, leading questions that suggest the answers --
MR. BREWER: Objection. Argumentative.
MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: -- in that five hour seance you had on --
A: I think it was --
MR. PETROCELLI: Hold on. You are talking over each other.
I am also going to object to the kind of snide voice that you're using in asking these questions. It's argumentative.
MR. KELLY: I don't think the witness testified they had a seance, Mr. Baker unless I missed something.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I wanted to give you a sound bite, John Q.
MR. KELLY: I'll be sure to use it and attribute it to you, Mr. Baker.
MR. BREWER: Bombshell.
MR. KELLY: It will be a bombshell.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, let's get back to business, Mr. Baker.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did Mr. Petrocelli make any offer to give you the notes that he had taken in the five hours that you were in his office last week?
MR. PETROCELLI: Assumes -- lack of foundation. Assumes there are such notes.
THE WITNESS: Neither. I wasn't given notes, nor did I ask for notes.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did Mr. Plotkin take any notes. that you're aware of?
A: I think he might have taken a few notes.
Q: Now, did Mr. Petrocelli pay you for the five hours of your time that he took last week?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask to be paid for it?
A: No.
Q: Did he indicate to you that you would be reimbursed for your time in any way, shape or form for the five hours of last week on Tuesday?
A: No.
Q: Now, how many hours did it take to go over the June 11th and June 12th time periods?
A: I think that was the concentration of most of that -- of the hours, of the remaining hours.
Q: Okay. So as I understand it -- you correct me if I'm wrong -- that you started about 2:00 o'clock and you finished around 7:00 o'clock. Is that correct?
A: 6:30 --
MR. PETROCELLI: He said 6:30 or 7:00
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: And the first two hours were on background history, and the rest of the time was on the 11th and 12th. Is that right?
MR. PLOTKIN: I beg your pardon. I believe that he said he started at 2:00 and finished at 7:00 on Tuesday of this week. I don't think that related to the Friday. If you want to ask him when the Friday meeting started --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well. maybe I've been mistaken.
Q: You had a meeting this Tuesday as contrasted to a week ago last Tuesday?
A: Two meetings: Tuesday and then a Friday.
Q: And the Tuesday was this week'
A: This Tuesday.
Q: Okay. And that's the one that started at 2:00 and ended at 6:30 or 7:00?
A: Tuesday's. yes.
Q: And the Friday meeting was at Mr. Plotkin's office. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: What time did that meeting start?
A: I think it started about 12:30 or 1:00 and ended -- no? It was like a three-hour meeting.
Q: 12:30 or 1:00 p.m. on last Friday?
A: Can I check also?
Q: I just want your best recollection as you sit here now.
A: I remember it being about a three hour meeting, three-and-a-half-hour meeting.
Q: Do you remember about when you got out?
A: I know about 6:00 Mr. Petrocelli left, but I hung out with Michael afterward. But when I hang out with Michael, it's not -- it's just hanging out with Michael. We're friends also, so it's not just talking about the...
Q: Okay. So you left Mr. Plotkin's office around 6:00 Friday last. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And what time did Mr. Petrocelli leave?
A: On Friday?
Q: Yeah.
A: I think it was about 6:00.
Q: Okay. Now, what did you talk about -- Strike that. Who was present on Friday?
A: Mr. Petrocelli, Mr. Plotkin and myself.
Q: Had you ever met Mr. Petrocelli before last Friday?
A: No.
Q: Had you seen him on television?
A: I saw him, yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: No one has ever asked that question before. Mr. Baker.
MR. BREWER: That's an honor.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER: Q: Now, on Friday when you had the initial meeting with Mr. Petrocelli. had you then scheduled the Tuesday meeting with Mr. Petrocelli?
A: I don't think it was scheduled yet. I -- there was gonna be another time to meet.
Q: And when was that other time to meet?
A: Tuesday.
Q: Okay.
A: I don't know when it took place. l might have found out on Monday if it was okay to meet on Tuesday, through Michael, and I said, "Yeah, that's fine."
MR. PLOTKIN: Can I, just to clarify times? I don't know --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I'm not interested in your clarifying times, to be honest with you.
MR. PLOTKIN: I am not much concerned in whether you're interested or not. I am going to give you the information whether you want it or you don't.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Well, if you want to coach the witness, Mr. Plotkin, you can coach the witness. You've seen fit to have your client have at least, as I figure it, about 10 to 10 and a half hours of meeting. If you now want to refresh his recollection, do so at your peril, because I think I am entitled to get his testimony, and I don't give a damn about yours.
MR. PLOTKIN: That seems to me that we share something: Neither of us give a damn about the other.
ROBERT BAKER: Okay, fair enough. But if you --
MR. PLOTKIN: But the fact is that the meeting --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I don't want to hear you. If you have an objection place it on the record, but don't testify in this proceeding, Mr. Plotkin . You are not a witness. You are not sworn.
MR. PLOTKIN: I'd be happy to be sworn, sir.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: If you want, I will take your deposition, but right now I would like to take Mr. Kaelin's.
MR. PETROCELLI: By the way, Mr. Baker, your addition of hours was incorrect. I think he said about eight hours, give or take.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now, Mr. Kaelin, is it your testimony on Monday of this week that you did not know. that is, the 12th, when the second meeting was being scheduled with yourself and Mr. Petrocelli?
MR. PETROCELLI: Assumes there was going to be another meeting, and I object on that ground.
THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question?
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Sure. Is it your testimony that on Monday, February 12, 1996, you did not know when the second meeting was going to be scheduled between yourself, Mr. Plotkin and Mr. Petrocelli?
A: I believe I found out that Monday it was gonna happen on Tuesday for sure.
Q: All right. And you knew on Friday when you left Mr. Plotkin's office that there was going to be another meeting between yourself and Mr. Petrocelli and Mr. Plotkin. Right? A: If -- if by the time -- there was going to be time to do it. It wasn't a for sure.
Q: And tell us the subjects that you went over on Friday.
A: I think it was also June llth,12th, those days. It was going over some of the trial transcripts of the testimony, and they asked me questions about it.
Q: Who is the "they"?
A: Mr. Petrocelli asked me.
Q: -- Now. you stated, you say, about 12:30 or 1:00 O'clock and that would have been on the 9th of February, 1996, the Friday meeting. Correct?
A: I believe so.
Q: And you say that Mr. Petrocelli left about 6:00 p.m. in the evening. Is that right?
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Baker --
THE WITNESS: You know, I want to go over that --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Just let me ask the question. If you've got an objection, object.
THE WITNESS: You know what? I do. It was nighttime. It was not in the afternoon on Friday. And whether it was. . . But it was at about, I believe, the 5:30 hour or so that it started, not at the noon hour.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: So it's your recollection as you sit here now that six days ago it was either at 5:30 in the afternoon this meeting started or at 12:30 in the afternoon the meeting started. Right?
A: I believe so.
Q: Okay. So it was one of those two times. True?
A: I think so.
Q: Now, in any event, how long did you talk about June 11th and 12th or February 9th,1996?
A: Hour.
Q: And what else did you talk about on the 9th?
MR. PLOTKIN: Search for the truth.
THE WITNESS: Do you know what day I was there? If you do, tell me.
MR. PETROCELLI: He does. He does indeed.
THE WITNESS: I remember talking with Mr. Petrocelli last week, and I didn't write down the date.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay.
A: I know the day that I was to show up, I showed up, and I answered him honest and told -- answered the questions.
Q: Fair enough. Now, after the one hour that you talked about the 11th and 12th, what else did you talk about last Friday, February 9th,1996?
A: Okay. We talked about the 911 call.
Q: How long did that take. approximately?
MR. PETROCELLI: If you recall.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: You don't recall --
A: I don't recall the length of time on that. We didn't go from -- we went to a different subject. It wasn't a set like, "Here, we'll take that, this 911 call, and then we'll go..." I just -- did a lot of the talking.
Q: All right. The 911 call you're talking about is February 25.1993. True?
A: Say the date again.
Q: I'm sorry. I said it wrong. apologize . It's October 25. 1993, was the date.
Q: I believe so. yes.
Q: Okay. And do you have an estimate whether you talked about that for 5 minutes or 55 minutes or any time in between?
A: Time in between.
Q: Okay, 30 minutes?
A: Sure.
Q: Okay. And --
A: The day that we met, though. there was a Laker game that was going on that Mr. Petrocelli missed, and I don't know the date.
Q: God. I'm so sorry.
MR. PETROCELLI: So was I.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now. what else did you talk -- what other topics did you talk about, Mr. Kaelin?
A: I think that's it. It was all those events that were -- we talked about somewhat today.
Q: Did you talk about any history that you had with -- while you were living at Gretna Green?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that on the Friday, the 9th?
A: believe so.
Q: All right. And do you remember how long that took?
A: Two hours.
Q: And did you talk about any of the events that occurred with the police subsequent to June 12, 1994 that involved you, on that Friday, February 9th?
A: The June 11 the date, talking about events that --
Q: Let me reask the question. On February 19th when you were discussing with Mr. Petrocelli the events and circumstances around the death of Nicole, did you discuss what you had experienced with the police on June 12th, June 13th and thereafter?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: And how long did that take?
A: An hour.
Q: Did you discuss with Mr. Petrocelli on February 9th,1996 approximately how long -- Strike that. Did you discuss with Mr. Petrocelli on February 9. 1996 the conversations that you've described here with Cora Fishman that you've testified occurred subsequent to the murder of Nicole?
A: We didn't really discuss that.
Q: Okay. Did you discuss that in the Tuesday meeting that lasted approximately five hours?
A: Maybe touched on it.
Q: So did you have, what, 8 to 10 hours of conversations with Mr. Petrocelli within the last six days before you became a sworn witness for your civil deposition?
A: I would say between seven and eight.
Q: Now, on the Friday, February 9th, 1996 meeting, was Mr. Petrocelli taking notes?
A: I believe so.
Q: Was Mr. Plotkin taking notes?
A: On one of the days, probably both those days, yes.
Q: And you were not compensated for the seven hours of time that you gave to Mr. Petrocelli. Is that correct?
A: I was not.
Q: By the way, what do you do for a living presently?
A: Presently I'm still at the KLSX radio station.
Q: And what are your present hours of -- what do you work?
A: I was there 2:00 to 4:00, and I'm doing a show, and now I'm there working on a show of interviews, presently still in working with Robert Moore
Q: How many hours a week do you presently work?
A: Well, I'm always writing things down with the ideas and --
Q: Well, can you give me an estimate as to how many hours a week you work?
A: Well, on that I work probably two hours a day on the ideas, so 10 hours.
Q: 10 hours a week?
A: Yeah. on that, on the radio, and probably an hour on the -- writing a CD-ROM.
Q: Okay. Now, in terms of the book that was produced by Marc Eliot, you got a royalty off that, didn't you?
A: Nothing.
Q: You had a contract that called for you to get a royalty, did you not?
A: I did not.
Q: You never signed a contract with Marc Eliot?
A: No. There was some collaboration worked out that was never signed. It was verbal.
Q: And it's your testimony that you got absolutely nothing for the book that was published. Correct?
A: Nothing.
Q: All right. And did you ever subsequent to the murders of Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman try to market your story?
MR. PETROCELLI: What do you mean by "story"? You mean his knowledge of the events and circumstances and of the Simpsons?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah, I'll adopt that. That's fine.
THE WITNESS: Did I market --
MR. PLOTKIN: What do you mean by "market"?
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Did you go out and tell somebody that "I'm trying to sell my story"?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever go to NBC and try to sell your story?
A: No.
Q: Never occurred?
A: To sell my story for money?
Q: For money, yeah, sure.
A: No.
Q: Okay. Since the murders, have you followed in the media the coverage of the events of June 12th .1994?
A: Yes, I've seen some of it. I had cable, but I took the cable out, so I had local reception. It was shaky. but I saw events, yes.
Q: And have you read any books: for example, Faye Resnick's book?
A: Did not read the book. I saw a buddy pointing out the Kato thing that she had written, but I didn't read her book.
Q: Was the Kato thing that she had written to your knowledge true and correct?
A: I'd have to refresh my memory: it was a long time ago. but I don't believe it was.
Q: We will get back to that tomorrow.
A: Okay.
Q: Relative to your -- what's in the tapes and in Mr. Marc Eliot's book, have you read that?
A: I haven't.
Q: Did you ever review the transcripts of the interviews you gave to Marc Eliot?
A: No, just here at this deposition.
Q: Okay. Did you review those at all with Mr. Petrocelli on the 13th or the 9th of February, 1996?
A: Not the tapes. There was some of the printed words.
Q: Written transcripts of the --
A: Written transcripts of the tapes.
Q: And did you review those?
A: I went over some of it.
Q: And what particulars did you go over?
A: With the fights that O.J. and Nicole had and things that were said that dealt with Cora Fishman, the Cabo trip, and what we went over today.
Q: Let me ask you: When you say "the fights," you were asked about fights or arguments on June l4th, 1994 when you were interviewed by Mr. Shapiro. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you then told Mr. Shapiro all of the arguments that you had witnessed. Isn't that true?
A: Yeah. At that time I was very nervous. I had never been in a courtroom: I had never been in any kind of proceeding, and so I was nervous, and I didn't know exactly if I had that one shot. Maybe it was one of those things where you're put on the spot, and you go back home and you go, "Hey, wait a minute. There was another thing that happened," and that's what my problem was. I couldn't think so much on the spot.
When you asked me about the dates about the meetings, I have to like take a minute and go, "Okay, now I remember when it was." So that's the way I am, and it -- like tonight I'll go, "Oh, God, the meeting was then." So that's the whole problem, the thinking that I would think and go, "Wait a minute, there was another fight," because I remember saying in that meeting, "I don't remember that Bruce Jenner thing," and I went, "Wait, there was that thing that happened. "
And like if someone says, "Well, don 't you remember that happening?"
And I go, "Well, yeah," and then I get into detail about what happened. And so it's a cue word this sets me off. and I go with what I remember.
Q: Okay. Well, let's use a cue word as the Cabo trip. Are we talking about May of 1994? Is that when the Cabo trip was?
A: I believe, yes. Q: And so it's your recollection that Mr. Simpson and Nicole Brown Simpson were in Cabo San Lucas in May of 1994. Correct?
A: Of what I've heard from Cora, correct.
Q: Well, you lived at the house in May of 1994, and you were around Mr. Simpson. Do you have a recollection that it occurred or it didn't occur?
MR. PETROCELLI: It misstates his testimony, that he was "around."
THE WITNESS: I didn't ask O.J. everywhere he was going.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. But that's what your understanding was, was that Miss Simpson and Mr. Simpson were in Cabo San Lucas May of 1994. Right?
A: Correct .
Q: And that's when Cora told you that Nicole Brown Simpson broke off with Mr. Simpson. Correct?
A: Yes
Q: There is another thing I want to clear up and then start back.
A: Okay.
Q: On the night of June 12th, 1994 after you're back from the infamous burger trip and you say you saw Mr. Simpson, but you can't remember whether it was your first trip past the garage or your second trip. True?
A: Okay. So the -- after the McDonald's trip --
Q: Right. And you say you heard these noises.
A: Correct.
Q: Right? You came out of your bungalow, you went around by the patio and around onto the driveway, past the entrance and past the garage. Correct?
A: Yes
Q: All right. Then you say on the first or second trip, that is, the first or second inspection trip of yours, you saw O.J. Simpson move from an area by the grass, across the driveway, towards the entrance. Correct?
A: Well. l didn't know --
MR. PETROCELLI: The squiggly line on 84.
THE WITNESS: Where I pointed the line, it was in that motion of the grass. It was over here (Indicating), but that's where I draw the squiggly. And it was on the driveway. and I just remember a dark outfit, and I don't know exactly first or second trip, but I remember that dark outfit.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. Is it your recollection that that's the same outfit that Mr. Simpson was in when you saw him enter the limousine?
A: That's what I remember all day him wearing from the McDonald's trip on.
Q: So he had never changed clothes from the McDonald's trip to the time that you saw him enter the limousine. Correct?
MR. PETROCELLI: Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I just don't remember any -- I just remember that outfit in my head
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. Now, you were in the Bentley when you were going to McDonald's. You were sitting in the right front passenger seat. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And there is a center console in that vehicle, is there not?
A: I believe so. I --
Q: And there is -- is there a little area for a cell phone in the Bentley? Do you have any recollection?
A: That was my first drive in it. It was dark, so I don't know. There could be .
Q: All right. And in any event. Mr. Simpson's shoulder -- from your left shoulder to Mr. Simpson's right shoulder would be 15, 18 inches. Correct?
A: Sitting in a car. yeah.
Q: And your recollection is he had this dark sweat suit on, black probably, with a white zipper on it at that time. Correct?
A: I believe so.
Q: And your recollection is that when you saw Mr. Simpson and from the exhibit that we have now labeled 84 and you draw the squiggly line, as it's been called, he was in exactly the same outfit. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And your recollection is that when he was exiting the entrance on Rockingham and going from the entrance, the front entrance to the limo, he was in exactly the same outfit. Correct?
MR. PLOTKIN: You mean the entrance to the house?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Yeah.
Q: The entrance from the front entrance of the house into the limo to leave, he was in the same outfit. Right?
A: That's what I -- I remember this, the dark outfit.
Q: Sure. And I take it that your recollection is that it was -- in your mind's eye you can recall this white zipper that went down the front of that outfit. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you have a recollection of that when O.J. exited the front door and went towards the limo. True?
A: I have more of the image in the driveway, but I remember the outfit.
Q -- All right. Now. as I understand your testimony, that you have looked at part of the transcripts from the interviews you gave to Marc Eliot, you have looked at least part of the transcripts of the trial that you gave -- trial testimony you gave in 1995, you have looked at part of your Grand Jury testimony, part of your preliminary hearing testimony, and reviewed the statement that you gave to Mr. Shapiro on June l4th, 1994 in preparation for your deposition here the last couple of days. Is that true?
A: Correct.
Q: Now, what else, if anything, did you do to prepare yourself to testify here in these last two days?
A: Psyched up, got ready for it.
Q: All right. Did Mr. Petrocelli indicate to you how long the deposition was going to last when he had you over here and was in Mr. Plotkin's office?
A: I believe I just said what the times were. I thought it was -- the understanding was 9:00 to 5:00.
Q: Did he tell you how many days it was going to last?
A: No. I didn't know. I think we took a thing like, -- "How long is it going to last?"
"Three days, "I said, "Three days?"
So he said, "Probably three days."
Q: Okay. Did you have any -- did you go out of the office at all with Mr. Petrocelli while you were here at this office and have a Coke or anything?
A: No.
Q: Did you do that at Mr. Plotkin's office?
A: No.
Q: I take it that after seven, eight hours, you got to be pretty friendly with Mr. Petrocelli. True?
A: I think so. My demeanor is friendly
MR. PLOTKIN: Excuse me. Is your question whether they went out socially or whether he was out of this office with Mr. Petrocelli?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: I meant out of this office.
THE WITNESS: I mean, I don't know.
Not hanging out, but I was there to answer questions, and, you know, I was there any time --
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: you were trying to be helpful. Right? Is that true?
A: Sure.
Q: Okay. And you. of course, knew from your previous .seeing Mr. Petrocelli on television that he was representing Mr. Goldman. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you knew, of course, that from seeing Mr. Petrocelli on television, that he was suing O.J. Simpson for every bit of money that Mr. Simpson could ever have for the purported wrongful deaths of Ron Goldman --
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not suing him. My client is.
THE WITNESS: I didn't know what -- how much money it was, but I know there was a lawsuit over moneys.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Okay. And you wanted to be helpful for Mr. Petrocelli in the two meetings that you had last week and this week. Correct?
A: True.
Q: Okay. And if you hadn't wanted to be helpful, you wouldn't have sat down there for seven, ten hours and answered questions. Isn't that true?
A: True. I was open.
Q: All right. Now, as I understand it, you met Nicole in Aspen in December of 1992.Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you then moved into the house in Gretna Green in January of 1993. True?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you moved in, had you seen her more than at Aspen, I mean been physically in her presence, and I am discounting the phone calls that you testified to?
A: Was I more in her contact when I lived there?
Q: No. Poor question. I'll be happy to rephrase it.
Between the time that you met her in Aspen, Colorado, and the time you moved into Gretna Green, other than the phone calls, had you -- when you had talked about moving into her back house. had you communicated with her?
A: I think, yeah, there was a call, and I think maybe once we had seen each other.
Q: At a nightclub?
A: It could have been. I think it was with Grant. I don't know if it was a nightclub, but it might have been a restaurant. It might have been.
Q: Now, how many days did you spend -- I know you weren't with her all the time, but did you see Nicole in Aspen, Colorado?
A: Probably four days.
Q: And then after that you had one meeting and two phone calls and then moved into her back house. True?
A: The calls came to Cramer's house. and I'd be there a lot of the time. so I would be on the phone also, you know, saying hi and all that. So there was quite a few calls to him that I was usually there for and said hi and all that.
Q: Okay. Said hello, but so I'm clear, four days you were in Aspen. You saw her every day of those four days with Cramer. Correct?
A: Yeah. You know, on the ski slopes. If he wasn't there, I still would see her and then hook up somewhere, too.
Q: And then you were back over the Christmas holidays?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you contacted her in January of 1993 relative to moving in. True?
A: True.
Q: And wanted to confirm that this was not just cocktail talk, that this was for real. True?
A: Oh, for the move-in?
Q: Yeah.
A: Oh, at the party at her house.
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes.
Q: And you contacted her again after that.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, then when did you decide, if ever, what your rent was going to be? Or what did she decide your rent was going to be?
A: She said if I'd be willing to take care of the kids, to do a deduction. and then she just came up with 500.
Q: And sometimes you paid 500 and sometimes you didn't. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Sometimes you didn't pay anything.
A: No . The first month it was like she didn't make me pay, and then I paid.
Q: Well, every month after, which would be February through December of 1993. did you pay $500?
A: It wasn't 500.500 like a few times, and then 450. It was always decided on how much I would see Sidney and Justin, and she would tell me. She was never really forceful with the rent situation.
Q: So would it vary between $450 and $500 in those --
A: 4 to 5 -- I'd say.
Q: Okay. And how did you pay her. check or cash?
A: I think once I might have paid her cash when Cramer and I were doing that casting sessions and we had like large amounts of cash. Otherwise, check.
Q: Okay. Now, when you talk about these tea conversations that you have related to us, did you talk to Mr. Petrocelli about the tea conversations in the seven to ten hours of meetings you had with him in the last seven days?
A: Yes.
Q: And those tea conversations, I take it, didn't start immediately in January of 1993, did they?
A: Oh. boy. It could have towards the end. I mean, I was -- she took a liking right away, I mean. as far as what kind of guy I was. So I think there were a lot of conversations she would tell me things. I don't know. I can't say it was like tea talks. It could be at any moment. Like the kids just started coming by the room immediately when they found out who Kato was, and so she'd be out there in the daytime, it could be, or nighttime. But there was conversations.
Q: Is it your best recollection that Nicole Brown Simpson started telling you the intimate details of her personal life as early as the end of January, 1993?
A: Maybe February.
Q: All right. So by February of 1993, she was -- had she indicated to you that she wanted to get back with O.J. Simpson?
A: Yeah, I think there were times when she would tell me things about getting back. Like I said, I don't know exact dates, but she talked about the marriage. She used to always show me her photo albums, I mean constantly always had photos and showed me like the wedding pictures and trips they took. So I imagine from seeing that stuff that she still loved him. But I can't give you dates exactly. It's too confusing.
Q: Welt, let's see if we can put it in parameters. By May of 1993 you were aware that they, that being O.J. and Nicole, had agreed to try a reconciliation. Correct?
A: I believe so.
Q: So -- and she started chatting with you about personal details of her Life. Let's see if we can concentrate between February of 1993 and May of 1993. Okay?
A: Okay.
Q: Now, during that period of time did Nicole suggest to you that she wanted to get back to having a marriage with O.J. Simpson?
A: Yes, it came up.
Q: And she told you that she wanted to remarry O.J. Simpson, didn't she?
A: I believe so.
Q: And she told you she was in love with O.J. Simpson, didn't she?
A: Yes.
Q: And she told you that some of the best times she'd ever had in her life was in the company of Mr. O.J. Simpson. Isn't that correct?
A: Yeah. That's when the photo albums would come out. That's her thing, when she would show me that stuff.
Q: And she told you that he was a charming, gracious guy, didn't she?
A: At times. yes, she did.
Q: And she at that time indicated to you that she was having this affair with Marcus Allen. Is that correct?
A: Well, it was a time where she had told me that Marcus started taking a real liking to her, and she didn't really like Marcus. So she had got -- told me that he kept coming by, and she goes, "I just don't like Marcus that way. I like Marcus as a friend."
And then she would tell me that she had stuff in common, that Marcus has been such a good friend that she didn't think it would be good to be like a lover. And then she would say that "He's really a great guy, and we like the same music, and Marcus was religious," and she was telling me all these like good things, but she wasn't in love with him. And so that's the parts that I knew, and I didn't know what kind of went after.
Q: All right. As I understand your testimony, Mr. Kaelin, you were reasonably certain that after May of 1993 until May of 1994 Nicole was monogamous with O.J. Correct?
A: That the marriage was monogamous. That she told me in our conversations that the whole time she was married to him, she never, ever cheated on O.J. during the marriage.
Q: Let me go back, and I want to reask my question, or maybe I asked it poorly.
A: Okay.
Q: Your understanding was in May of 1993, O.J. and Nicole got back together for an attempted reconciliation. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you've testified in this proceeding that between the time that Nicole agreed to get back and wanted to get back with O.J. for a reconciliation, that she was never untrue to O.J. Correct? Never cheated on him.
MR. PLOTKIN: I don't believe that was his testimony.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember that part. I don't know.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: I understand. But I mean it was your impression that subsequent to May of 1993 and certainly up to and including May of 1994, Nicole did not have any relations with men that you're aware of other than perhaps with O.J. Correct?
A: Yeah, I thought that was the time they were going to try to make it work. It was one of those things where -- that I had mentioned one time they had a good relationship. It was a stormy relationship, but Nicole would say she was together with him since 19 and it was like 17 years together, and although they still were friends, and they would go apart, and it was very stormy, and yet I said that was good because they're still in each other's life. And I thought it was kind of like that unconditional thing, that although she said that during the relationship that O.J. cheated, that she still took him back. It was kind of that stormy --
MR. SIMPSON: Took him back?
THE WITNESS: And that's how I said it was kind of a good unconditional, that it was still happening; they were getting together.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: I want to use a time frame here. And if in fact it was your impression that Nicole was not being untrue to O.J. following their reconciliation in May of 1993, at least up to May of 1994, the incidents when Marcus Allen would come over were before May of 1993. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when -- between February of 1993 when you first started learning the personal intimate details of Nicole 's life and May of 1993, when did Marcus Allen come over and park his car any place other than in the front of the house?
A: There was a trip that O.J. and Nicole took I think to Cabo back then. That would get my memory if I knew the date, because it was before then that Marcus was coming over and seeing Nicole. I think they might have took the trip in April.
So Marcus was maybe coming there in April. I don't know when they took the trip in -- to Cabo, and that was Like -- I think that's when Nicole told him that Marcus was seeing her. I don't know the exact thing, but I think Marcus was coming over in April.
Q: All right. Let me go back a bit further. After you moved into the back house at Gretna Green, you were aware that O.J. didn't go into the house. He would pick up the kids from the front. Isn't that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And O.J. -- Strike that. And Nicole told you that O.J. had agreed not to come in the house, didn't she?
A: I think so.
Q: And before O.J. was even coming in the house, Nicole was telling you that she wanted to get back and remarry O.J. Simpson because the best years of her Life was when she was married to him. Isn't that right?
A: There were times when she said she wanted to get back together with O.J., yes.
Q: And she told you that she was making a concerted effort to get back in O.J.'s life between February and May of 1993. Isn't that true?
A: Yes. she was trying to get back together at times.
Q: And during that period of time she informed you that she had told O.J. about her relationship with Marcus Allen. Right?
A: I believe so.
Q: And it was in April of 1993 that she indicated to you that she told O.J. about this relationship. Isn't that correct?
A: I think it was April, yes.
Q: And at that time O.J. was coming around the Gretna Green house, was he not?
A: Yes.
Q: And he was not jealous or angry or at all upset to your knowledge about anything she had done with Marcus Allen. Isn't that true?
MR. PETROCELLI: Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. ROBERT LAKER:
Q: And as a matter of fact, Mr. Kaelin O.J. -- Well, strike that.
A: There was -- can I say something? There was a trip that was took, and she said the first two days of the trip were real tough, but they got better with O.J. I think that was after the Marcus situation.
I don't -- that was -- it was like very tough. There was a fight and she almost came back, she said, but they stuck it out there, and I -- but I -- I think it was in April. That was the Cabo trip.
Q: Now, Mr. Kaelin, as you sit here today and yesterday, you have heard a lot, you've read a lot about the surrounding events of the murders of Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman. True?
A: True,
Q: And can you tell us that the testimony that you gave all yesterday was clearly your recollection of events unaided by anything you've read or heard?
A: I think some of the --
MR. KELLY: Well, objection. I think he's already testified as to what he's reviewed and heard prior to his testimony.
MR. PETROCELLI: I object to the question as to form. Lacks foundation.
THE WITNESS: The question again?
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Sure. Can you tell us that the testimony that you gave yesterday and up to an hour ago or so when we took the break and they changed the tapes was all your testimony from your recollection unaided by anything you've read in the media, unaided by anything you've seen on the electronic media and simply your recollection of events?
MR. PETROCELLI: I am going to object, Mr. Baker. I think the question is fundamentally unfair because it literally requires him to canvas each and every piece of testimony that he gave over two days and make an association as to whether or not he read anything about it or heard anything about it, and I don t think it's possible for that question to be answered, and I object to it. It lacks foundation, it's overbroad, it's compound, it's vague and it's ambiguous. Those are my objections for the record.
MR. PLOTKIN: I just have a question
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Ripkin doesn't recognize any of them. Go ahead, ,Mr. Plotkin.
MR. PLOTKIN: If you will clarify the question.
MR. PETROCELLI: Does Ripkin wear a robe?
MR. ROBERT BAKER: He was too smart to do that.
MR. PLOTKIN: These days he's not wearing much of anything.
MR. PETROCELLI: We won't let the judge read that part, Mr. Baker.
MR. KELLY: I might give it to him..
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, RIVERA LIVE tonight.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Let Mr. Plotkin put what he wants on the record, please
MR. PLOTKIN: Simply to understand the question, are you asking whether his reaction to what is now I guess 18 months of media and the like has tempered his -- or are you asking whether something he read in preparation for this deposition affected his...
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Basically what I'm asking, Mr. Kaelin, is: What you have heard on the media, whether it be on the radio, on television, what you have read in the news media print, has that tempered your recollection and has altered your testimony from what you previously have given to the Grand Jury --
MR. PETROCELLI: Same objection.
MR. BREWER: Same objections.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Should I go?
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Go ahead.
A: This is -- obviously I have seen some things on TV: I have seen things in print, but with my testimony maybe -- I don't know -- like the degree I can't give but, yeah, I've read certain things that it didn't taint what I said. but certain things did come up that I didn't know before from trial and. . .
MR. PLOTKIN: Can I ask one favor? l assume when you whisper to Mr. Baker that you don't intend for me to hear what you're saying.
MR. SIMPSON: Did you hear what I just said?
MR. PLOTKIN: No, but I've heard a number of things that you have said.
MR. SIMPSON: Well. you can hear. No secrets. I've got no secrets.
MR. PLOTKIN: I just think in fairness that you ought to be aware of it.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Thank you.
Q: Now. you testified within the last hour and a half something to the effect, "I don't know because it's been so long ago and there's been so many news stories, that I'm confused " Do you recall your testimony in that regard when you were talking about your movements on June 12th, 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, have you read anything about the background of Nicole and O.J. Simpson that has colored your testimony relative to the time period between February of 1993 and May of 1993, if you know?
MR. PETROCELLI: Same objections.
MR. KELLY: Objection to the form of the question.
THE WITNESS: I don't know the answer.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: All right. Fair enough.
Now. do you have a recollection of when you were talking to Nicole in this time frame between February and May of 1993. that she indicated to you that O.J. would be upset about Marcus Allen?
A: Yes.
Q: Tell me when that was.
A: It was when Marcus was coming by, those trips before he was going to leave for camp, and she just said that O.J. would be so pissed if he knew Marcus was coming over.
And I went, "Really?" Because I didn't know anything was really even going on and -- but he was parking on a different street.
Q: And then you found out later that, of course, O.J. wasn't upset at all about Marcus when Nicole actually told him that she wanted his assistance to end Marcus coming over to the house. Isn't that right?
MR. PETROCELLI: That misstates his testimony, Mr. Baker.
MR. BREWER: Also calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I just -- I think so, because I know he got married at her house -- at his house. I didn't know what the situation was with Marcus at all, what was actually going on. but I didn't -- I know that he got married at the house, so I thought everybody was --
MR. PETROCELLI: He is not asking you if he got married. Listen to the question.
THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. I just know -- I didn't know -- there wasn't any --
MR. ROBERT BAKER: How come you didn't do that when you were questioning?
MR. PETROCELLI: I tried to, but you inter --
Listen to the question. That's why I did it Mr. Baker. He's running out of paper.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: Now, you indicated to Mr. Shapiro that O.J. was never upset about Nicole dating other men, did you not?
A: At that time, yeah. I think O.J. knew Nicole was seeing other people.
Q: He was never upset about that, was he?
A: Not that I saw.
Q: He never told you he was upset about Nicole dating anybody. Isn't that true?
MR. PETROCELLI: Now, what point of time?
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: At any time that you were either a guest in Gretna Green or a guest in Rockingham.
A: Well, there was a thing with the pushing of buttons that I mentioned that started happening at the Gretna Green -- Q: Well, maybe you didn't understand the question.
MR. PLOTKIN: Why don't you let him answer the question.
MR. KELLY: Well Objection. I'd like to See if he can answer it before you decide if he didn't understand it, Mr. Baker.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: All right.
THE WITNESS: There was --
MR. PLOTKIN: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's make sure that you do understand the question, and then --
THE WITNESS: I think what you're trying to say is, was there any -- was O.J., mad that Nicole was dating others.
BY MR. ROBERT BAKER:
Q: No, that isn't what I asked at all. I asked you: Did O.J. ever tell you that he was upset that Nicole would date other men?
MR. PETROCELLI: That's the question. It's different from before, but that's the pending question. THE WITNESS: Not that I can remember.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Ed says it was different. I agree with him.
Now, I think we're running out of paper, and why don't we --
MR. PETROCELLI: Call it.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: -- call it for today.
MR. PETROCELLI: 9:30 tomorrow.
MR. ROBERT BAKER: Why don't we make it 10:00.
MR. PETROCELLI: 10:00 o'clock tomorrow?
You guys can get an early tee time before then, can't you? You can play nine.
MR. SIMPSON: My normal game --
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Brian Kaelin, Volume II. The number of videotapes used was two, We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 4:53.
(ENDING TIME: 4:53 PM.)
I DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT
SUBSCRIBED AT _________ CALIFORNIA, THIS DAY OF _________ 19__
BRIAN KAELIN