MARCH 8, 1995
(The following proceedings were held at the bench:)
THE COURT: Madam reporter--we're over here at sidebar with counsel--this is to be a sealed matter. Mr. Cochran.
MR. COCHRAN: Yes, your Honor. We--I think maybe it was last Thursday, which would be Thursday, March 2nd, I received a call in my office from a juror who identified herself as "TT", I believe one of our former jurors. She said she had information regarding two of the jurors. I think it's 602 and one other one. I'm not clear who the other one was. And she wanted to start telling me about information that she had regarding them, and I said I think we're not permitted to investigate this. "You should call and talk to his Honor's clerk and make your report through her." I mentioned this to the Court earlier and the Court indicated that perhaps she has now called or made some official report or wrote a letter to us.
THE COURT: Yes. She did in fact call. Mrs. Robertson prepared another one of her memos, and that memo was faxed yesterday to Deputy Downs, and he'll provide a copy to you when we come back from lunch.
MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor. I just wanted to make sure it got on the record.
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, MARCH 13, 1995 1:30 P.M.
Department no. 103 Hon. Lance a. Ito, Judge
APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)
(Janet m. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)
(Christine m. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)
(The following proceedings were held in camera:)
THE COURT: I'm going to call in order, starting with 1427, go through the list and ask them what's going on. Mrs. Robertson, would you ask 1427 to step in. And if I forget, remind me to admonish the person not to discuss this.
(Juror no. 1427 enters chambers.)
THE CLERK: Juror 1427.
THE COURT: 1427, come on in, sit down. Have a seat. How are you today?
JUROR NO. 1427: Fine. How are you?
THE COURT: Good. Good. The reason I called you in is, I got a typewritten note--
JUROR NO. 1427: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: --that has your number here down at the bottom, and apparently it is regarding Juror no. 602. Am I correct in that?
JUROR NO. 1427: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Can you tell me what's going on?
JUROR NO. 1427: This was--I believe it's been--an issue that's already been taken care of. The first--within the first month, he would try and get people together and discuss things, like he would try and get things out in the air, supposedly to clear the air on little personal differences, petty little things that may bother one person and other people may not be aware of.
At first, I really thought he was sincere in his trying to get people together and resolve little differences so we could get along better as a group. And by the end of the first session--this took place twice. By the end of the first session, it was pretty obvious by the way these meetings were going that it was just a lot of finger pointing and arguing and people were just not really cooperating or giving any constructive criticism to one another. They were just trying to vent anger, frustration at other individuals who never--I know some individuals are more outspoken than others, and these outspoken individuals sometimes get targeted because they express opinions or concerns or they ask for certain things. Like, for example, one person, I remember she asked if the sheriffs could be in normal street clothing while they are at the hotel because it's more comfortable for them and for us as well. We just felt a little more comfortable. And she wrote a letter and I remember you mentioned that in the court. And then when we went back into the deliberation room, everybody attacked her. They said, "What was that letter about," and, "Why didn't you tell us about it? Why did you request something without first consulting the rest of us," and, "Don't ever do that again." And I thought, excuse me, but people here have the right to their own opinion and, you know, people have a right to expressing their own opinion and what it is they would like to have done, and people just kept on, going back and forth attacking this individual for no apparent reason. And I don't think that there's really a purpose to these meetings other than to attack individuals that other individuals don't like.
THE COURT: Can you tell me the other topics that have been discussed at any of these meetings?
JUROR NO. 1427: Just petty little things, personal habits.
THE COURT: Give me some examples.
JUROR NO. 1427: Okay. An example, somebody--one juror mentioned another juror is a little loud or boisterous, but that's just her personality, and she just speaks loud and she can't help it. People were just pointing things out about other people, but not in a nice way. They weren't saying, "Oh, could you please keep it down. I know it's kind of hard because that's just the way you are." I mean, they were just pointing fingers at each other and just going on and on.
And then there was another one about another juror who he's always putting his feet on tables, you know, the dining room table, things like that, and that happens to be the juror that we talked about. And I confronted him personally about another little thing that would bother us that he would do, and I try and do it nicely, and I think that's the way to handle things, person to person, and not bring it out in front of an entire group and try to humiliate somebody publicly. It's just that he along with a few other jurors like having these meetings and a lot of us don't feel comfortable with the meetings because we feel like we're being targeted or we feel that other people don't have the courage to stand up to an individual and say, "Excuse me, I wish you wouldn't do this. It kind of bothers me." Instead, they wait for these meetings and then they do it in a gang manner and they gang up on one individual three or four at a time, and that's not proper. I didn't think that was proper.
THE COURT: All right. What are some of the other subjects? Have you ever discussed any of the facts or the issues here in the courtroom?
JUROR NO. 1427: No. Nothing about being here inside the courtroom, nothing about what's going on here. It's just personal to my knowledge, idiosyncrasies, just having to live with each other for an extended period of time, just cabin fever, just having to be around these people day in and day out.
THE COURT: How are things today?
JUROR NO. 1427: Well, I notice people are a little more introverted because they realize that we have to live with each other for quite a while and a lot of people are not able to let go of their hostilities or whatever it is their problem is. I personally have never done anything. I've tried to be polite to everyone, but some people do not respond to that politeness. Another juror, for example, since--we're able to skip dinner. A lot of people--a lot of the chairs are not occupied at these dinner tables. There are three dinner tables where we dine. One person was invited to another table. When she went over and sat down at the table, three people got up and moved to another table. And I just thought that was uncalled for. I just thought that was very hostile.
And none of these people ever talk to us one-on-one. You try and have a conversation with them, but I mean--that's fine with me. If somebody doesn't like me, you know, that's fine. I won't try and talk to them and not get in their way. But there's really--I don't see why some people react that way towards other individuals because individuals here have not ever done anything to hurt anybody else or put anybody else in jeopardy. They just have expressed their own personal feelings about how they are frustrated. And they request conjugal visits or whatever they request, and other people at the beginning, they would get really upset because somebody would make a complaint or a request. They thought they were going to get punished or that--or they were going to get the group in trouble or they thought the attitude of the deputies was going to be harsh or somehow that we would pay for complaining or airing a disappointment.
THE COURT: All right. What do you think I can do to alleviate the situation?
JUROR NO. 1427: There's really--the deputies have pretty much done everything they can. There's really not much really that can be done. It may be--the outings have really helped because now it's optional. For example, we went to a track last week. We went twice to a track. The first time, everybody had to go. The second time, not everyone had to go. And I think it's a good idea to let people stay in their rooms, and that way, we're separate and we're not always in each other's faces to where we have to constantly see each other and I think it helps dissipate whatever conflicts there are. It helps. It does help, and you don't have to see that same person over and over again.
THE COURT: All right. I want you to know that I am interested in these things, problems that you have and I am interested in hearing about them. I am going to order you at this point not to discuss what we have just discussed here in chambers with any of the other jurors. And if anybody asks you, just say you've been ordered not to discuss it, and that should be the end of the topic.
JUROR NO. 1427: Just one more thing that does bother me about that particular juror. He--I don't know if it's my imagination, but systematically, I see him--it's very--how can I say this? He's very--he's always listening in on other people's personal conversations. I mean, he never expresses anything about him or his personal life. And I notice at the dinner table, he has his Walkman at the dinner table and he has his headphones on. But another juror pointed out to me there's no cassette in that Walkman and, you know, he can't have a radio in the hotel. And it just irritates me a little to know that he listens in on other people's conversations. And I've seen him try and coax people into little arguments. And then when the thing--when the claim starts going towards his direction, he says, "Oh, I am sorry if I offended anybody. I didn't mean to do anything," and he tries to--I don't know. It seems like he likes instigating or he likes coaxing people and making them upset. And the last meeting, those meetings that we were having, I--I spoke up and I said, "I don't think we should be having these meetings." I remember he kept staring at me that day. And then the following day, he kept on looking at me. He was pretending to read the newspaper. He kept on looking at me staring right into my eyes. And I finally said, "Is something the matter? Do you want to talk to me about something? Is something wrong?" He didn't say a word. He just got up, sighed heavily, he walked around my table, walked back around my table and went back and sat down to where he was sitting. But he wouldn't say anything to me. I don't know if he's trying to intimidate me. I don't know what the deal is with him, but I've noticed he systematically tries to look at other people's information or--
THE COURT: What do you mean by that?
JUROR NO. 1427: He just--
THE COURT: When you say, "Look at other people's information"?
JUROR NO. 1427: Well, for example, we have a list for conjugal visits on Saturday night. One time it was Saturday--and the list is usually made out Friday afternoon. I forgot to put down my visitor. So I asked the deputy at the front desk, "May I please have the list so I can write down my visitor?" So he gave me the list and I wrote down my visitor. I was walking away, walking down the hallway away from the deputy's desk. He saw me put the--take the list and write a name down. So he--right after that, he goes up to the deputy, he says, "Oh, can I please see the list? I don't remember if I put my wife down."
How can you not remember you did something just the day before? I just think--it doesn't make sense to me. And also, in the phone room, they have a log, and they go from one phone to the next--there are four desks in the phone room, and you can see--when the deputies write down your information, you can see the information of the people before you. And it--just one time, I was there using the phone, and he had gotten off the phone and he sits there in the room waiting. I don't know what he was waiting for, but he was sitting there while I was conversing. And I don't know. I just feel really uncomfortable when he's around me. I feel like I have to hide something because he's always listening to our conversations or pretending to be on the telephone when he's really listening in on what we are saying or what the other jurors are saying. It's usually--we're usually talking about personal things or frustrations of being here and how hard it is and, you know, our spouses and problems we have with them or whatever, and he never--he never talks about his personal things.
And also, there was one week where he would sit at the dinner table and not say one word for the entire meal, breakfast, lunch and dinner, and we were wondering what's wrong with this guy, what's going on with him. So we--it's really uncomfortable being around him. I don't know what the situation is. And there was another thing that was brought up to my attention that really bothered me. And that is that another juror saw him with a list of everyone's juror number with their first and last names, and I don't know how he got that information. And that really upset me and that really made me even more I guess paranoid about saying things in front of him.
THE COURT: Which juror is this who told you this?
JUROR NO. 1427: Juror 19 said he saw 602 with a list of our first and last names, and we--he wrote a little note to one of the deputies about this too.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 1427: So--
THE COURT: All right. Putting aside the problems with 602, how's everything else at the hotel?
JUROR NO. 1427: The hotel, the accommodations are fine. It's just people usually are frustrated because they of course would like to be out a little more. And it's just--
THE COURT: How was the magician?
JUROR NO. 1427: He was great. Everybody loved him. He was really good.
THE COURT: Okay. We're trying. We're having some exercise equipment sent over and, you know, I've got one law clerk who does nothing but arrange stuff for you guys.
JUROR NO. 1427: I see. I mean, I understand it's really hard for the deputies to do their job and have to supervise us 24 hours. We're very limited in terms of what we can do. But it's just--
THE COURT: How's the track situation working out?
JUROR NO. 1427: That's--everybody likes going. Most of the people really appreciate that. It gets us out in the open, you know.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. 1427--Mr. Cochran, you had a question?
MR. COCHRAN: Could we approach just one second?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. COCHRAN: May we approach your desk?
THE COURT: Sure. You want to whisper in my ear?
(A conference was held out of the juror's hearing, not reported.)
(Page 18492 redacted)
(A conference was held out of the hearing of the juror, not reported.)
THE COURT: You know, at these meetings--this is when you've over in the deliberations room, correct?
JUROR NO. 1427: Yes. They're no longer taking place because we wrote that letter, and both myself and another juror told one of the deputies about those meetings that were going on. And while they were--when they tried to hold a third meeting that last time, another juror got up and knocked on the door, called out a deputy, and that's when he walked in, right at the beginning. So he said, "I don't know what you guys are doing here, but I don't think you guys should be discussing anything," and it stopped. And then the following day, I think it was a Tuesday, is when they made an announcement--the sergeant and another deputy made an announcement saying, "You shouldn't have any discussions. Nothing like this should be going on."
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 1427: So that pretty much took care of that issue.
THE COURT: So far.
JUROR NO. 1427: Yes.
THE COURT: 1427, we took longer than I thought it was going to. I was going to have one or two other jurors come in and speak to us, but I want to conclude with the--as much as we can with the witness today. But just so you'll know, that I am going to periodically over the next few days bring in all the other jurors to speak with them about this. You just happened to be the first one.
JUROR NO. 1427: Okay.
THE COURT: So--but I'll order you not to discuss this in any way with anybody.
JUROR NO. 1427: Okay.
THE COURT: Except for me or for the deputies if they do so at my request.
JUROR NO. 1427: Okay.
THE COURT: Okay?
JUROR NO. 1427: That's fine.
THE COURT: I hope we can make things at least palatable for you.
JUROR NO. 1427: Okay. That is fine.
THE COURT: Thank you.
JUROR NO. 1427: Thank you.
(Juror no. 1427 exits chambers.)
THE COURT: We have to finish promptly at 3:00. I'm concerned about this list of names. If that's true, he should not have that.
MS. CLARK: Can we have a moment, your Honor, before we go out?
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, MARCH 14, 1995 9:13 A.M.
Department no. 103 Hon. Lance a. Ito, Judge
APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)
(Janet m. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)
(Christine m. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)
(The following proceedings were held in camera:)
(Discussion held off the record.)
(Juror no. 353 enters chambers.)
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Good morning.
THE COURT: Good morning. Have a seat.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Becoming routine.
THE COURT: You are going to get frequent flyer miles pretty soon. We are in chambers with Juror no. 353. Mr. Bailey, you can be seated. Thank you. No. 353, the reason I called you in this time is I have a letter that is dated March 6th to Sergeant Smith which he conveyed to me and it has your juror signature at the bottom concerning a problem apparently with no. 602. Can you tell me what the problem is?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Well, I don't know if--I guess it is pretty particular to 602, but I know the day that you called me in here, I had asked to leave and they were having a--he has a tendency to bring up these personal kind of let's clear the air, get everything out in the open, and it is really distressing to me. And before I came in here they were having that kind of argument and then when I went back it was continuing, and we asked him not to do it again. And then about a week later he decided to have another one, which I was in no way going to participate in. And I stepped--they had told me--they said, hey, look, if you really need to get ahold of somebody, you go ahead out in the hallway and get ahold of one of the deputies, so I did that and he came in and put a stop to it, but--
THE COURT: Can you tell me the nature of these discussions that are going on?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Just, you know, you bumped into me when we were watching TV, you eat too loud, you talk too fast, you know, it is those real petty kind of--and some of it just doesn't need to be said. I mean, we are living really close to each together and I just have to kind of tolerate things I think sometimes. I mean things I wouldn't normally tolerate in my husband I'm tolerating in people that I hardly know, but I think that is expected.
THE COURT: Plus we are all adults, too.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Absolutely. I mean, you know--
THE COURT: Any other problems? Any privacy problems?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Privacy problems? Well, not particularly to me because I'm--you know, I wait up until eleven o'clock to go to bed. We are supposed to be in our room by 11:00. I like a lot of people, I like conversation, you know, so not with me, but I know there are several other people who--well, privacy problems with him. He likes to delve into, you know, people's personal things, things that--
THE COURT: How does he do that?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: He--well, like our conjugal visit night he sits there and kind of goes over the list who is expecting company, things like that. He will ask you questions, but he never has a tendency to reciprocate in the conversation. You know, what do you do, what do I do. What do you do, you know.
THE COURT: I mean, do you feel that this is disruptive to the harmony of the jury at this point?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Well, I mean I don't know. I mean I--it bothers me sometimes because--but I just don't have a tendency--I just don't talk to him or people who dig into my personal life too much, I kind of back away, so it--to me it doesn't, but you know--
THE COURT: Anything else that is going on that you want to tell me about?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Well, I just--I think there is some pettiness going on that I don't like.
THE COURT: Such as? Give me an example.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Kind of, you know, one-upmanship, so silly. I don't even like talking about it, it is so silly. You want to watch a movie, there will be several us of watching a movie, somebody will be sitting in there, well, you are not watching that because I want to watch something else. And you don't want to confront them, you know, one of you and three of us, and so you--you know, I don't care, I will just back off. But there is a couple of people like that, they just--it is not that maybe--you probably wouldn't even want to watch a movie, just the sheer fact that he knows he can intimidate.
THE COURT: Which juror is this?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Do you want me to tell you? I don't know his number.
THE COURT: All right. Well, if it becomes a problem, let me know. I know that is a common experience, if there is one television, there is always--
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Yeah, there is always somebody that wants to handle the remote, so I deal with that on a daily basis at home and I usually don't let it bother me.
THE COURT: That is not a big deal. All right. Mr. Cochran? Miss Clark? All right. 353, thanks a lot. And I'm going to order you not to discuss what we have just discussed here.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: I won't say a word.
THE COURT: What I'm doing is going through the jury a couple at a time, just to see what is going on and make sure everything is okay. All right. Don't discuss this with anybody.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Okay. I won't.
THE COURT: How is the exercise equipment?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Oh, it is wonderful. It is really wonderful. I used it last night. It got set up. It is great. It helps me I know.
THE COURT: We are working on a few other things, too. It takes time and I've had to get those things donated by the manufacturers and things like that. How was the magician?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: It was fun. He was great. He was wonderful. Those things really help. I tell you the only thing with me is I'm just--my emotions go like this. Some days I'm great and wonderful and some days I just miss my home and my family so much, so it is really hard trying to keep--
THE COURT: Okay. Hang in there.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: I'm trying.
THE COURT: All right.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 353: Bye, you guys. Thank you very much.
MR. COCHRAN: See you again.
(Juror no. 353 exits chambers.)
THE COURT: All right. Deputy G, 19, please. Off the record.
(Discussion held off the record.)
(Juror no. 19 enters chambers.)
THE COURT: All right. No. 19, why don't you have a seat there, please. Why don't you all be seated. How are you today?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: Doing okay.
THE COURT: All right. The reason I've been calling jurors in a couple at a time is I wanted to talk to you about the two notes that you have sent to me regarding Juror no. 602. Can you tell me what the problems are?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: Basically what I wrote out in the--what I wrote out in the second letter to you.
THE COURT: Tell me about these privacy problems.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: Okay. Like for instance, somebody had told me that he was taking--he keeps looking at the list of our visitors on Saturday, so I went up and I took a look to see if his name was already on the list and his I believe was like the fourth number on the list. And I sat down at the end of the hall and I watched him go in and out of his room three or four times, pick it up, look, and then go back to his room. I have seen a note that he wrote down a little list of juror numbers and next to that juror number he has our first and last names. And I'm trying to figure out--I have seen that.
THE COURT: Where did you see that?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: The day we went on the bus ride.
THE COURT: Which bus ride?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: The one--the one--the one where the freeways were blocked off.
THE COURT: The crime scene view?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: Yeah.
THE COURT: Okay.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: The day I was the President, that day.
THE COURT: Actually that was better. Tell me about this list. What kind of paper was it on? Where did you actually see this? On the bus?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: It was on the bus. He had pulled out--I went to the restroom and he was just jotting stuff down on it and it was only about yea big, (indicating).
THE COURT: Meaning maybe six inches long?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: It was like a piece of paper like folded up like into a regular size piece of paper that was folded up into four pieces, and that is when I saw it. He had a list there, and he had some of the last--he has most of the last names on it. Other things, just simple little things. Nobody likes having him around because they know what he is up to.
THE COURT: What do you think he is up to?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: He is taking notes to write a book. That is what I think. Like when we get into the vans, everybody tries to hide. 19 of us try and hop into two vans. And there has been times when he has been in the van by himself because nobody wants to be around him. When we are at--as far as like dinnertime and stuff like that, he is just a real nuisance. Everybody just--if they don't go outside, we just filter into another table and sit at another table. A couple times like in the room next--in the jury room, he started a couple arguments in there bringing up stuff about, well, if there is any problems, let's bring them out now. He is trying like to lead the way into something and that really turned to like a real finger pointing. It was just like a real big bitch session. And that was just before we went into court and everybody was all hyped up that morning. And on the second one, one of the ladies popped her head out the window and called one of the deputies in to stop it because it was just getting out of control. Stuff like that that he does, just starts irritating people.
THE COURT: You mentioned something about phone conversations?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: Oh, yeah. He sits in the room and it is like he sits there and like if he is waiting for the phone, like they make a phone list. There is four phones in the room. There is a list that everybody writes down their number and they call it in order when the next person comes. If his name is like the fourth, sixth--fifth or sixth number on the list, it is going to be a little while, but yet he will sit in there and listen. He will sit in one of the other chairs or off to the side and he will act like he is doing something. There has been times when he has sat at the table, he has had his headset on. One time he dropped it and there was no tape in it. When I reached down to pick it up, he grabbed it before I did and there was no tape it in. It is just little things like that that makes you wonder.
THE COURT: Okay. But you definitely saw this list?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: I definitely--yeah, I saw the list. I saw it, personally saw that list.
THE COURT: All right. Do you know if anybody else saw this list?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: Umm, not--not that I have spoken to. We don't talk about it, but everybody knows what's up, but I don't know if anybody else has actually seen it.
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Cochran, do you have any further inquiry?
MR. COCHRAN: May I approach the desk?
THE COURT: Sure.
(Discussion held off the record.)
THE COURT: No. 19, can you tell me if there is anything else that leads you to the conclusion that you think this guy is writing a book about this?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: Umm, little comments that he makes, like saying stuff about--this is like if something was said or done, like at the table, like just amongst just ourselves, he would say, oh, that would be good to be put--that would be good to put in a book. Little stuff like there will be a book that will--that will--somebody was mentioning a book that was out about--about jurors, but it wasn't--it was like--like a non--it was not--a non-true book.
THE COURT: Fiction?
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: Yeah, and he said there will be--well, there will be a book out that will be a non-fiction book, little stuff like that that he says that, you know, makes you think that way.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. No. 19, I'm going to order you not to discuss this with anybody else. I'm going to periodically talk to a few other jurors, and we may have to talk to you again one more time on this particular issue. But I appreciate you bringing this to my attention.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, sir.
PROSPECTIVE JUROR NO. 19: Thank you for hearing it.
(Juror no. 19 exits chambers.)
(Proceedings sealed in camera, not included in released transcript.)
THE COURT: Does anybody have a position at this point as to 602?
MR. COCHRAN: I think we would like to hear from the other jurors and I think also, your Honor, you may want to also hear from some of the sheriff's deputies, too. Everybody seems to observe this man, so--
MS. CLARK: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: I don't know if I mentioned this to you, but Sergeant Smith communicated to me earlier this week that 602 had approached three of the bailiffs and asked them if they would keep personal journals for him as to their experiences, which is consistent with him wanting to write a book, which in and of itself is not misconduct. But possessing a list of the juror's true names is a violation of the anonymous jury order, so that--that has me greatly concerned. And we have a witness or a juror who has been very adamant and clear that he has seen the list.
MS. CLARK: The only thing is, are they supposed to call each other by number? I mean, they are--
THE COURT: Well, they may even be first names, but to compile a list is a violation of the Court's orders regarding an anonymous jury.
MR. COCHRAN: In addition to that, Judge, we have a little history. I mean, from our standpoint, we never accepted that the map from Los Angeles--and the problem is, and I think we should hear from everybody, is like everybody is out of step but him and it seems to be pretty unanimous. I think we should listen to everybody.
THE COURT: I want to continue the inquiry at this point. I'm not ready to render any judgment. I was wondering if maybe there was a consensus, maybe we could cut this short, but if we agree we want to hear a little more, we can do that, but I have heard the observation that when the sheriffs are transporting he sits in one van and everybody else sits in the other vans, which is indicative of something.
MR. BAILEY: You might consider the request of the deputies to subcontract.
THE COURT: Could be.
MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, one other observation that I think is important to consider, and that is the comment that the discussions became so heated to everybody that the jurors had a hard time concentrating when they came out one day to listen to the evidence.
THE COURT: Uh-huh. Yes, I'm concerned about that. Mostly concerned about that other comment that you had made, Mr. Shapiro, two weeks ago, about him staring at your client and then writing things down and things like that.
MS. CLARK: He stares at everybody and writes things down. I have seen him do it with us, too.
THE COURT: Yes. You can call that one either way. I agree with Mr. Cochran, I would like to hear the rest of the people.
THE COURT: All right. We need to go out and we need to discuss some parameters and a couple of other matters on the record. Okay.
MR. DOUGLAS: Your Honor, do you want to discuss this--
THE COURT: No, let's--that is something we can do at the end of the day.
(At 9:40 A.M. proceedings in camera were concluded.)
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, MARCH 15, 1995 9:10 A.M.
Department no. 103 Hon. Lance a. Ito, Judge
APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)
(Janet m. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)
(Christine m. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)
(The following proceedings were held in camera:)
THE COURT: How about Juror no. 1290, please.
(Juror no. 1290 enters chambers.)
THE BAILIFF: 1290.
THE COURT: Good morning, 1290. How are you today?
JUROR NO. 1290: Fine, thank you.
THE COURT: Glad to see we finally got you a good seat in the courtroom rather than being in the middle of the traffic pattern there.
JUROR NO. 1290: Yes. Much better, thank you.
THE COURT: 1290, the reason I called you in is, a few days ago, actually last week, I received a letter through Sergeant Smith concerning Juror no. 602, and your juror number is one signed here at the bottom of the letter. Can you tell me what the problem is as best you can?
JUROR NO. 1290: With him specifically? Well, he's--he's a very unusual man, I'll say that right off the bat. He seems to like to agitate, keep things stirred up. He seems to tempt, to cause problems between other jurors. He doesn't like to be challenged or questioned or opposed, his views opposed. When someone does, he seems to try to retaliate, that type of thing. He has some strange personal habits.
THE COURT: Such as?
JUROR NO. 1290: Such as putting his feet up on furniture. And we've told him, you know, about these things, and he gets mad and leaves and then comes back. He had a habit of gargling at the table, you know, just--
THE COURT: Gargling?
JUROR NO. 1290: Odd-ball things, nothing--
THE COURT: Okay. Tell me about the riding arrangement in the vans. Is there anything unusual about that?
JUROR NO. 1290: Well, I think there's--he looks at them--are you talking about him again or just generally?
THE COURT: Yes.
JUROR NO. 1290: He'll look at each van and decide whether or not he wants to, you know, be a part of that group. And there have been times he's ridden in a van by himself because they do have three vans, and he will avoid the other two. And I think there's a couple of jurors in particular he's avoiding.
THE COURT: Can you tell me, is there anything that he has done that you feel is an invasion of your privacy, either you or collectively of the other jurors?
JUROR NO. 1290: Well, he's said things about another juror I believe trying to get other people to agree with him, kind of sabotage type of thing.
THE COURT: What types of things?
JUROR NO. 1290: Well, in particular, *********, he's, you know, tried to convince the rest of us that she has *********** problem or, you know, this type of thing, which I said if she does, it's her own business, I don't see how it relates to anything we're doing here. And he--I think he started some--you know, those meetings that, you know, that we objected to.
THE COURT: Has that continued since the bailiffs intervened?
JUROR NO. 1290: No. It stopped. It stopped at that point. And I think that started originally when I wrote that letter about the uniforms.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 1290: That day when we went back into the deliberation room, two jurors jumped up and asked me what I wrote about, started pointing fingers at me. And so I told them it was about the uniforms, and they got really upset that I hadn't taken a consensus of everybody before I wrote the letter. And that seemed to be what started off these meetings in that room, that type of thing. And they've become really vicious. But since the bailiff mentioned it, they've stopped. So--
THE COURT: All right. Has that pretty much calmed down?
JUROR NO. 1290: Oh, yeah.
THE COURT: Everything seem to be okay now?
JUROR NO. 1290: Yeah, it does.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR NO. 1290: That's--
THE COURT: So far, everybody's told me the magician was pretty good.
JUROR NO. 1290: Yeah. He was great. There are other problems--I'm sure you heard--other problems at the hotel with, you know, the movie set-up and the videos.
THE COURT: Do you think we need a second video set-up there?
JUROR NO. 1290: Well, we have the two rooms now. Uh-huh.
THE COURT: Has that pretty much solved things?
JUROR NO. 1290: Well, it really hasn't.
THE COURT: Why not? You would think with two sets--
JUROR NO. 1290: I know. Wouldn't you though? But I don't know. There seems to be like a little power play or contest going about who's going to see what they want, this type of thing.
THE COURT: See, the problem with that though is that if that continues, then I am going to decide what's going to be shown every night and nobody will have a choice.
JUROR NO. 1290: Well, you know, that might be better. It might--it might--
THE COURT: I have--
JUROR NO. 1290: I hate to say it, but it might be an improvement.
THE COURT: I have very unusual taste.
JUROR NO. 1290: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: I like foreign movies with subtitles.
JUROR NO. 1290: A couple of people, you know, we look at the TV Guide, you have certain choices and that's it. So--
THE COURT: Okay. Anything else you feel you need to tell us?
JUROR NO. 1290: Well, I would like to mention one incident since I'm in here and have the opportunity.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR NO. 1290: That happened to me personally. As I mentioned before, there seemed to be a couple or three camps kind of developing, and three of us happen to be very outspoken, myself, 353 and 1427, which seems to be resented by a couple or three other jurors. And Saturday night, when I went down to dinner--now, Saturday night is visiting night and people are getting to where not many necessarily go down to dinner. They have somebody bring food in for them. And I was the only person that usually sits at the particular table I sit at that went down that night. And as I was in line--you know, we have the buffet style--one of the jurors said, "Juror no. 1290, why don't you come and sit with us." I said, "Fine, I'll do that." And so I got my plate and went and sat down, and three other jurors got up and walked to the third table. And when I sat down, I says, "Well, I guess, you know, if you ever want to empty out a table, just call me over," or something like that. And they--most of them laughed at it and said, "Well, you know, they have a problem, you know. It's not you." But, you know, they have a problem and probably they should sit over there anyway. But it was really an odd feeling to sit down and--but it's the same people that we have the problem with the videos with. I don't know. I hate to see it and I don't know what the reason is or what's behind it, but it's that type of--that type of feeling I'm getting, you know.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 1290: But--
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Cochran, any comment?
MR. COCHRAN: May I approach?
THE COURT: Sure.
(An off the record discussion was held between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)
THE COURT: Can you tell me if you've seen any conflict between no. 19 and 602?
JUROR NO. 1290: Yes, I have.
THE COURT: All right. Can you tell me about that?
JUROR NO. 1290: Well, there's a tension between them. Of course, they're completely different personalities. But this one particular incident at the table, it was something said by 19 and 1386 that apparently upset 602. I don't know exactly what it was, but 602 said, "If you want to make any bets about me," you know, "Make sure I'm here," something like that. And 1386 got upset. So 19 said, "Let's discuss it later." 602 said, "No, I'm not going to. I don't trust you." And then 19 got upset saying, "Are you saying there's something about me or something that you don't trust?" At that point, I believe 602 was called out. One of the others was called out by the deputy because they saw a little--voices being raised or rather 19 was called out by the deputy. I don't know what was said. 602 was then called out by the deputy. I don't know what was said. But after that point, the tension seemed to be even worse between them. As far as I know, they haven't spoken since that point. But I really don't know the details about what happened. I just saw that small incident.
THE COURT: All right. Can you tell me in your opinion who was causing the problems regarding the control of the TV room?
JUROR NO. 1290: 1489.
THE COURT: You mentioned there were three people or group of three?
JUROR NO. 1290: Well, what they're doing--let me give you an example of what happened. There was a movie in the one room that 353 and myself didn't personally want to see. So we went down to the other TV room. 1489 was sitting there in the dark by himself. 353 asked him what he was going to watch. He said, "I don't know." She said, "Well, we would like to watch--" and I think it was "The Madness of King George." I can't remember what the movie was. He said, "Well, no." So we left, went and got a deputy, went back--we asked her, you know, if we could put on "Madness of King George." She said, "How many people are down there?" We said one. So by the time we got back, there was another person in the room with 1489. I can't remember who it was at the moment. And he said that he had six people that had voted to watch her. Now, this has happened three or four times. And six people are never in the room, you know, but he has six people. It's become a silly game. So I never pursue it. I just say okay, and I'll go do something else. And that's been the type of thing that's been going on. It's 1489, 1233 and the other woman, tall lady, sits in the front, I think 982. Is that a real number? Or 682.
THE COURT: I think it's 984, but that's okay.
JUROR NO. 1290: Okay. I think she sits in the first seat in the back row. But the three of them in particular, and then I think they get joined by a couple others to make up their sixth vote, who I think just kind of go along with that. But other than those few problems, most people here are really great in trying to work together I believe. Another thing--you shouldn't have got me started. Another thing 602 does, there's two empty seats at our table now or rather one. He will sit down first before he goes through the line, he'll sit on a seat and put his feet up on each chair beside him. And 1427 is a juror he dislikes. He will wait to see where she sits, and he will move to the seat furthest from her. So there will be a seat between them because she seems to be usually at the end of the line for some reason. But he--he'll do that to avoid sitting next to her.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Number 1290, I'm going to order you not to discuss what we've just discussed here in chambers with anybody else.
JUROR NO. 1290: Okay.
THE COURT: And I appreciate your being frank with us on these matters.
JUROR NO. 1290: All right. Thank you.
THE COURT: Why don't you take your place back in the jury room.
(Juror no. 1290 exits chambers.)
THE COURT: All right. Can I have 2179, please.
(Brief pause.)
THE COURT: I may have to do something about picking seats, which I don't want to do.
MR. COCHRAN: When you say assign movies, I think it's probably counterproductive.
THE COURT: Or just make it one long table.
MR. COCHRAN: Might be one way of doing it. May not be necessary after we finish hearing this. We're going to have a position regarding 602.
MR. SHAPIRO: Can't they just have a list of movies, pick what they want to watch, watch a different movie every day, watch it or--
THE COURT: When we had that problem initially, I got a second VCR and a second TV set up.
(Juror no. 2179 enters chambers.)
THE BAILIFF: 2179.
THE COURT: Hi, 2179. Why don't you have a seat there. Good morning.
JUROR NO. 2179: Good morning.
THE COURT: How are you today?
JUROR NO. 2179: Okay.
THE COURT: Good. 2179, the reason I asked you to come in to chat with us is, last week, I got a letter from Sergeant Smith that was signed by you as one of the people on the letter regarding some problems here in the deliberation room and some problems back at the hotel, and it appears to indicate that there's a juror who is causing some tension or some problem or some discussion.
JUROR NO. 2179: Yeah.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 2179: They bring up a subject. You know, we told him, you know, this is not the place for it, you know, because we're trying to concentrate on one thing. And they want to bring up something that happened over there, and we say it's not the place for it, you know, and everybody is trying to concentrate, everybody is trying to stay focused over there, and certain people bring up certain situations, get people kind of fired up under the collar. And it's like this is not right, you know, and I don't want to go--when the deputy came in there and told us, you know, that was--that we was like, okay, fine. We are going to make sure it doesn't come up again. We want to be at ease when we're here. You know, we don't want to be tensed up and pressured by a couple of other jurors in there who's causing problems all the time.
THE COURT: When you say who's causing problems all the time--
JUROR NO. 2179: It's a couple of them in there. It's just the way they react to people, you know. I be bending over backwards to try to get along with these people, brush them off. They trying to put you in the middle of this, you know, and I refuse to be in the middle of that, you know.
THE COURT: Tell me what did you--tell me specifically what kind of problems you're having.
JUROR NO. 2179: Well, mainly, it's--I hate to say it, but mainly racial issue, you know. Some people don't like the people for the color of their skin. And I'm not like this, and they get offended, "Why you talking to this person?" That doesn't bother me. So I'll refuse to let that bother me. But they do have--some of them over there, you know, they do make their little comments and stuff like that.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 2179: But it's--you know, I get along with all of them fine. But just a few in there that don't like this person for some reason and they try to make it--pressure other people, you know, to jump on their side, and we're not going to do that. We're going to stay focused here. I get along with all of them and some of them, they just make it hard, you know, make it hard. I don't even want to be bothered.
THE COURT: I have a specific complaint here in front of me about 602. Is there a problem with 602?
JUROR NO. 2179: No. I don't have a problem with 602.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: All right. Anything else you think you need to tell us about?
JUROR NO. 2179: No. That's about it.
THE COURT: Is it working out okay for you?
JUROR NO. 2179: Yeah. I have my days, you know, but it's all right. I can deal with it.
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Cochran, anything?
MR. COCHRAN: No.
THE COURT: Miss Clark?
MS. CLARK: No.
THE COURT: All right. 2179, I am going to order you not to discuss with any of the other jurors anything we talked about here today. All right? Thanks for coming in.
JUROR NO. 2179: Okay.
(Juror no. 2179 exits chambers.)
MR. BAILEY: Anyone else?
THE COURT: No. That's it for today. All right. Why don't you all be seated. Mr. Cochran, you said you might have a position.
MR. COCHRAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: What might that be?
MR. COCHRAN: We move that 602 be removed from the jury for a number of reasons. I wanted to hear from all the people who signed the letter. Number one, I think that it seems as though he's a disruptive force. We have had occasion to talk to him on two occasions. From our standpoint, we didn't buy the map. I still don't think--the 105 Freeway explanation notwithstanding, there's no reason to have a map for Los Angeles, and the fact he wanted to know where his wife went on a map I thought was bizarre. But just his attitude, being disruptive in this jury exacerbates--I mean we've seen him on the jury view. He was always over way by himself. Mr. Shapiro pointed out weeks ago about his glowering. Then we know that he--with regard to ****, his particular feeling about her, that he tried to engender the indication she was *******, claimed that she smelled like ***** when she came back. Apparently that wasn't true. He has problems with the bailiffs. He complains about the bailiffs not letting him go out and run. He said he went out and ran and somebody tried to trip him, wouldn't let him swim. With regard to 19, they haven't even spoken apparently since the incident. 19 apparently is single and he's concerned about who 19's ************* are. With regard to--we heard from 353, the lady who--353?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. COCHRAN: --who--we've heard from 1427, ********, we've heard from 353, we've heard from 19, we've heard from 2179, and they're all very articulate that more than anyone else, he seems to be a problem. The fact of his putting his feet on the table, feet on chairs is unusual, but when he puts feet on chairs to try to keep 1427 from sitting next to him or gargling at the table or instigating all these meetings and things, it just seems to me that those things are so disruptive that, you know--I think they're trying hard to stay in this case. Both sides need a fair shot. It seems he's a person who's made up his mind. Perhaps the worst thing is having those jurors' numbers and names and asking the bailiffs--we didn't see the letter, but you mentioned to us he asked the bailiffs to keep a journal for him, and then two people have now said that he had his headset on where he can like listen to their private conversation, that there's nothing in the Walkman. So that's just apparently a ruse so that they think he's occupied while listening to what's happening. So I think for all those reasons--from the Defense standpoint, we think you have the authority to do it certainly. We've heard more than enough. We have excused people it seems for less. And I think if the Court observes this man for a period of time, he's--he is very unusual. And that in and of itself isn't reason to kick anybody off. But when the unusual traits of his personality interferes with everyone else, causes all these problems, I think we're just asking for trouble. The longer he stays, it gets exacerbated. And I don't think it helps to put them all at one table. If everybody hates him, he hates half the people, it's not going to help to do that. You can solve the problem with the TV like children if everybody wants to watch something else. Like if you go to a movie with your wife, Judge--my wife and I go to a movie on Saturday nights and she may want to see "The Madness of King George" and I may want to see "The Walking Dead." And we try to compromise. One week--
THE COURT: There is no compromise between those two choices.
MR. COCHRAN: So, you know, there's a--
THE COURT: You wind up seeing "Dumb and Dumber."
MR. COCHRAN: Whatever is coming up at the Universal Center. You can work out some of these things. But 602 seemed to be so ingrained and such a problem as I said and you gave him a chance before. So I think if you look at the totality of the situation, if you look at the bailiffs, if you look at his fellow jurors, you look at what he's done, there's no indication things are ever going to get any better. They're only going to be exacerbated. We feel strongly that he should be removed at this point.
MR. BAILEY: Could I add one small thing after Mr. Shapiro?
THE COURT: Certainly.
MS. CLARK: What happened to one lawyer?
THE COURT: Well, this is an interesting issue. Go ahead.
MR. DARDEN: I thought we were going to hear from the bailiff.
THE COURT: I was just looking for the other note. Here's the note from the bailiff.
(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, Mr. Shapiro correctly points out that he had organized these meetings one day where the jurors were so keyed up. Even the last one, they were so keyed up, it came out they were having trouble concentrating. This is the kind of juror, Judge, if you let him stay all the way to deliberations, it could cause a lot of problems. They're not going to be able to deliberate or work in that condition. And I think Lee wants to tell me something also.
(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
MR. DARDEN: I think their contention that things won't get any better is contradicted by the testimony.
MR. COCHRAN: I'm not finished yet. I haven't read that.
MR. DARDEN: Does that mean I can't finish my statement?
MR. COCHRAN: I thought we were waiting--Judge, Mr. Bailey correctly points out the bailiff caught the altercation this time between apparently 602 and 19 before it came to blows and stopped it at this time. But this is going to be--I mean, if we have that kind of a situation, obviously that's a problem. And I think everybody will agree this is not--this cuts across racial lines. People complain about him. Most are Caucasian. It's not like a racial thing. So it seems to me--we have seen this note that you have now handed us. 602 has approached bailiffs on two occasions on two different dates and said he was planning to write a book about the situation. The book will contain what he learned about the trial and his experience being sequestered. So this man is preoccupied. I suppose he has a constitutional right to write a book 90 days after service. But right now, he needs to be preoccupied on the evidence and not on who's visiting fellow jurors for conjugal visits or asking the bailiffs to keep a log of what happened or listening to everybody's conversation or trying to get people to a side about certain things. And I guess the best thing that tells us is that--if they have three vans and he rides in one van by himself on apparently more than one occasion, I suppose that tells you a lot about the situation we find ourselves in. I think certainly--we've lost other jurors and we have eight alternates left. I certainly want to be able to finish this case, but I think this has gone far enough. Certainly if you want to hear from him about his version of it--but I think the evidence seems to be pretty overwhelming that if he stays in there, it presents more problems, and I move to exclude him.
THE COURT: Miss Clark on Mr. Darden. Mr. Darden.
MR. DARDEN: I think the evidence at this point, you know, may establish that he is some form of a jerk. And what kind of a jerk he is, I don't know, but he's done nothing that constitutes misconduct.
THE COURT: Well, his possession of a list of the jurors' names and numbers is a violation of the Court's order and 90-day rule and that is something he's not supposed to have.
MR. DARDEN: Well, are you inclined to dismiss him?
THE COURT: I'm sorry?
MR. DARDEN: Are you inclined to dismiss him? Is that what you want to do?
THE COURT: Well, I'm real worried about the fact he has this list, and I think he's obviously--and the fact that he's talked to the bailiffs and asked them to assist him in writing his journal, that worries me greatly.
MR. DARDEN: The only person who claims that he--who claims to have seen a list is Juror 19. Of course, 602 and Juror 19 are at odds with each other. There seems to be some animosity between the two of them. So we have no firm evidence beyond Juror 19 saying that such a list even exists. My concern is this. I don't think there's sufficient cause at this point--that's my view--to relieve this juror, to excuse this juror. You ought to at least talk to 602. And it may very well be that 602 does not understand what all the groundrules are, as I'm sure a lot of them don't. And 602 in his own way is disruptive, and that's pretty much apparent. So is the juror who monopolizes the TV room. So is the clique, the clique of jurors who apparently don't like the last juror because she associates with non-black jurors. I mean there are cliques that have developed here. All of these cliques I'm sure are disruptive and probably just as disruptive in some form, whether some form that is more subtle.
THE COURT: All right. I agree with you that we ought to talk to 602, and I think we'll do that tomorrow. And let me think about this. I don't know what my inclination is at this time. But I've got to tell you, Mr. Darden, the thing that causes me the most concern is the business about the juror list and the business about disrupting the jurors or firing them up as one of the jurors just said so that when--and one of the jurors that talked to us a few days ago said they went out there to listen to the case and they were so riled up about what had gone on in the jury room, that it was hard to concentrate on what was--
MR. DARDEN: But those meetings are no longer going on.
THE COURT: I understand.
MR. DARDEN: All the jurors said the situation now is better than it was before.
THE COURT: But I agree with you we should talk to 602.
MR. COCHRAN: I think you should talk to 602. Also, no. 1427 said in addition to that, **** was outside looking at the phone log, and she watched him looking at the phone logs of who was calling, that sort of stuff. That is beyond, you know, just--
THE COURT: Let me see if I can--if any of the bailiffs can corroborate that he comes down and looks at the visitors' logs several times.
MR. DARDEN: They're just scared his book is going to come out before theirs.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. COCHRAN: We will not respond to such comments, Judge.
MR. DARDEN: Not today?
MR. COCHRAN: No. I'll do it at the appropriate time.
THE COURT: Okay. Let's go do some business.
MS. CLARK: We need to address the Court before the jury comes out.
THE COURT: How surprised I am to hear that.
MS. CLARK: I knew you would be.
(At 9:45 A.M., in camera proceedings were concluded.)
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, MARCH 16, 1995 9:10 A.M.
Department no. 103 Hon. Lance a. Ito, Judge
APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)
(Janet m. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)
(Christine m. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)
(The following proceedings were held in camera:)
THE COURT: Let's go on the record. We are in chambers with all counsel, and we are going to first start with an inquiry of Juror no. 602. Deputy Magnera, can we have Juror 602.
(Juror no. 602 enters chambers.)
THE COURT: All right. Good morning, no. 602. Have a seat, please.
JUROR NO. 602: Good morning.
THE COURT: No. 602, the reason I've asked you in here, we've had other issues come up that I need to ask you some questions on. And before I do, I want to remind you that you're under oath, the oath that you gave to us or took when you agreed to answer questions regarding your qualifications to serve as a juror.
JUROR NO. 602: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: It has been reported to me that you have compiled a list of the names of the jurors in this case. Is that true?
JUROR NO. 602: I didn't compile them, but I have a list of--I have some names of the jurors.
THE COURT: Why have you done that?
JUROR NO. 602: No reason. A lady that had the list gave it to me and she said, "Are these names right?"
THE COURT: Who gave the list to you?
JUROR NO. 602: I don't remember her number. She's gone now.
THE COURT: Was she one of the jurors who has previously been dismissed?
JUROR NO. 602: That's correct.
THE COURT: This wasn't your list, this was something somebody showed to you?
JUROR NO. 602: That's correct.
THE COURT: All right. It's been reported to me that--I have talked to three of the bailiffs, and you have indicated to them that you were writing a book on this case; is that correct?
JUROR NO. 602: No. I said I was thinking about it.
THE COURT: All right. You indicated to them that--you've asked them to keep journals in this case or keep a log of events?
JUROR NO. 602: I don't--I said that--that I was thinking about doing that, but--
THE COURT: All right. Did you make mention to them that the newspaper, the Daily Journal, was going to assist you in writing a book on this case?
JUROR NO. 602: The Daily Journal?
THE COURT: Daily Journal.
JUROR NO. 602: No, sir. I haven't really made up my mind yet and I certainly haven't talked to anyone about it except just in passing, I think it would be interesting to write a book about it.
THE COURT: Uh-huh. I've received complaints from a number of jurors that you have taken an unusual interest in the conjugal visit list, that you have made--gone out of your way to examine that list and to get from that list the names of the visitors.
JUROR NO. 602: No, sir. That's not true.
THE COURT: It's been reported to me that on one occasion regarding one visitation period, that you examined the visitation list on four occasions.
JUROR NO. 602: No, sir.
THE COURT: Do you know of any reason why you would need to look at that list more than once?
JUROR NO. 602: No. Well, yes, sir. I think I did look at it twice on one occasion to make sure that my wife was on there.
THE COURT: All right. Do you recall when we started this case, the day after you were sequestered, you asked the Court for permission to use a personal notebook computer?
JUROR NO. 602: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Is there any information on that computer that relates to this case?
JUROR NO. 602: No, sir. I signed an affidavit to that effect.
THE COURT: Would you have any objection to my having another Judge take your computer and check the database and make sure there's nothing there?
JUROR NO. 602: Not at all.
THE COURT: All right. Okay.
JUROR NO. 602: The only thing I use that for is to play chess and to run my CD-ROM, which right now, I sent it back with my wife because it crashed.
THE COURT: Are there any necessary passwords?
JUROR NO. 602: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: What are those?
JUROR NO. 602: ********.
THE COURT: All right. Not too tough to figure that one out. All right. Mr. Cochran, any comments, questions?
MR. COCHRAN: Not at this point, your Honor.
THE COURT: Miss Clark?
MS. CLARK: No.
THE COURT: All right. No. 602, do you have anything you want to say about any of these things? You know the procedure we're going through.
JUROR NO. 602: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Because of this complaint.
JUROR NO. 602: Pardon me?
THE COURT: We've been through this one complaint or one issue before. So you understand that I have to look into each one of these things.
JUROR NO. 602: Yes, sir. And I appreciate your doing that because I want to be as truthful and straightforward as possible. There has been some people that asked me about my wife's age, which I didn't think was a big deal, but they had indicated among themselves that they had checked either the phone list or the visitation list to get my wife's age. And if anyone is checking a list, there are people doing it because they aren't--and I complained a couple times, that a deputy sitting over at another table said, "Who are you calling," and I had it on a piece of paper, and I said, "I would like to keep this secret between us," and he said, "Oh, yeah, I guess you're right." So the lists are readily available for everyone to see. I would like to remain completely anonymous in this case and I'm trying my best to do that, but there are people that look at the list. And a comment was made at the dinner table about my wife's age. She's very sensitive about her age, and I try to be polite without saying, "It's none of your business." So all I said was, "Well, she's older than me," and someone made the comment, "Well, she couldn't be because I saw the list."
THE COURT: Who made that comment to you?
JUROR NO. 602: One of the ladies--my mouth is awfully dry. One of the ladies at the table. I think it was either 353 or the blond--the elderly blond that I don't know her name.
THE COURT: Elderly blond. Okay.
JUROR NO. 602: You had her in here yesterday I think.
MR. COCHRAN: May we approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: Sure.
(A conference was held between Mr. Cochran, Ms. Clark and the Court.)
THE COURT: This jury name list, you indicated one of the jurors who has since departed showed you this list?
JUROR NO. 602: Yes.
THE COURT: And where was this?
JUROR NO. 602: She had it--I think it was the lineup for us to come to a meal or something. We line up in the hallway, and she said, "Are these names right?" And my name has--happens to be the same name of someone else on the jury, and I said, "I wish you would scratch that out and just put these initials there because I don't want my name on any list."
THE COURT: So you never had any list of the jurors in your possession; it was just shown to you?
JUROR NO. 602: She gave it to me to correct it and I gave it back to her. I told her--I said, "I don't think you should have that."
THE COURT: What was the name of the juror? I mean, do you remember which one it was?
JUROR NO. 602: Juror 2017 was her name. I don't know anyone's last name, but the jurors call each other by name.
THE COURT: By first name?
JUROR NO. 602: I have a hard time remembering names.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. No. 602, as before, I'm going to order you not to discuss what we've discussed here with any of the other jurors. All right?
JUROR NO. 602: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you sir.
JUROR NO. 602: Thank you.
(Juror no. 602 exits chambers.)
THE COURT: All right. Have a seat. Thank you. I'm going to have Deputy Magnera snag the computer that's over at the hotel.
MR. DARDEN: Are you going to search for the list?
THE COURT: No. I can't believe that he would keep that on a hard copy, and I'm sure it's either in the computer or long gone.
MR. BAILEY: Do you know who juror 2017 is, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yeah. She was the short white female, short blond hair, secretary, the one whose doctor was the same as--
MR. BAILEY: The Scotch lady.
THE COURT: Yeah. Anything else on that? I want to take a look at the computer before we do anything else. I mean, you know, the guy's with us. He's not going anywhere and he's not poisoning anybody because nobody wants to talk to him. So I don't feel compelled to do something right now. All right. Anything else that we need to do about that? All right.
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, MARCH 17, 1995 9:45 A.M.
Department no. 103 Hon. Lance a. Ito, Judge
APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)
(Janet m. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)
(Christine m. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)
(The following proceedings were held in camera:)
THE COURT: Back on the record in chambers. We're here meeting with counsel in chambers regarding the problem that we have had regarding Juror 602. Yesterday, in our inquiry with 602, I asked for and received from him permission to inspect his lap-top computer. The sheriff's department delivered to me the lap-top computer in its case, and it was the Court's intention to check the hard drive and any floppy disk for any confidential information regarding the identity of our anonymous and sequestered jury.
In the box that contained the floppy disks, the Court found a piece of paper that is approximately four by six inches which is ruled and appears to be a type of notebook paper that includes names and numbers of our jurors and does include some last names as well. And this is directly contrary to what Juror 602 told us on the record yesterday, that he did not have such a list in his possession and that a list had been shown to him, but was not in his possession. And the Court finds this statement to have been not true and that this list, which I have shown to counsel off the record, is a list of our jurors in this case. I am going to--is there any counsel who wish to be heard as to whether or not this juror should be excused?
MR. COCHRAN: I think it's pretty clear he should be excused, your Honor.
THE COURT: People?
MS. CLARK: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Deputy Magnera--counsel, I'm going to serve him with a copy of the order that I have displayed to you and I am also going to admonish him that I think he was not candid with us on the record and may have committed a felony crime. Thank you, guys. Let's have 602, please.
(Juror no. 602 enters chambers.)
THE COURT: 602, have a seat, please. 602, when I looked in your computer, in the floppy disk box, there's a list which appears to have names of jurors.
JUROR NO. 602: You're right. I thought I threw it away.
THE COURT: All right. No. 602, I'm going to discharge you as a member of this jury. I'm going to order you not to reveal to anybody the identity of any member of the jury or any of the alternates. I am going to order you not to reveal to anyone the name or location of the facility where the jurors are sequestered. I'm going to admonish you pursuant to Penal Code section 116.5 that it is a violation of the law to accept or agree to accept any payment or benefit in consideration for supplying any information in relation to this case prior to or within 90 days of the discharge of the jury. I'm also going to warn you that it appears that the statement you made to me yesterday on your oath as a juror was not correct and I may be referring this matter to another agency to investigate. All right. You are discharged, sir.
THE COURT: Let me give you a copy of the order so you understand it clearly.
JUROR NO. 602: I apologize to everyone.
(Juror no. 602 exits chambers.)
THE COURT: Have a nice day. In the computer case, there is a notebook, which I will have my staff examine closely to see if there's any identifying information in that. And if there is none, then I will have it returned to the juror. Okay.
(In camera proceedings were concluded.)