LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, APRIL 21, 1995 9:14 A.M.

Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted; also present on behalf of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, Commander Holland.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(The following proceedings were held in camera:)

THE COURT: On the record in the chambers with Mr. Cochran, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Bailey, Mr. Douglas, Mr. Neufeld for the Defense. And Mr. Darden and Mr. Goldberg for the people. Counsel, this morning I received from the jurors two notes and a communication to the court through the clerk, Miss Robertson, that the jurors wish--or a large number of them wish to speak to the Court. And if you recall, during our discussions with the jurors, I told them that at any time there was something that they needed to talk to me, that they were welcome to communicate that to me. And apparently, given the letter that we have from 984 and the group letter signed by--thirteen jurors?

THE BAILIFF: Thirteen.

THE COURT: Thirteen jurors--indicate that there is something important that they would like to discuss with the Court. I will hear any comment or suggestion counsel have. Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Bring them in.

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: I think they are entitled to be heard. Bring them in. I would like to find out how they would know about it.

THE COURT: That is an interesting question, too. Well, it is apparent they got back and there are three people gone. Even you could figure that out, Mr. Johnnie.

MR. COCHRAN: I could, your Honor, but as a juror, though, what am I going to do, unless somebody tells me that they got moved out from there, and so I think we should ask them who told them by whom.

THE COURT: That is an interesting side issue.

MR. COCHRAN: That could turn out to be the most critical issue.

THE COURT: All right. I propose then that we adopt the same procedure, that we have two lawyers from each side here. I will allow the sheriff's commander to be present and we will talk with them on the record. Now, just logistically, this is for Mr. Neufeld and Mr. Goldberg's edification, our conversations with the jurors lasted the last time about--average was about twenty minutes a shot. Since we only have a morning session, my suspicion is that we will not get to taking testimony this morning is my guess.

MR. NEUFELD: Just one question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Just one question. Well, then we will go out and you can ask that one question.

MR. COCHRAN: And he is finished, your Honor.

MR. NEUFELD: No, no it is a somewhat selfish question. I have not been home or seen my family in many, many weeks and if in fact we are not going to take testimony right now I will leave.

THE COURT: Take a red-eye.

MR. NEUFELD: Not take a red-eye, I will take a morning flight and be out of here.

THE COURT: Mr. Goldberg, any comment on that? Any disagreement?

MR. GOLDBERG: I don't think so, based on what is happening.

THE COURT: You don't have any problem with that, Mr. Goldberg?

MR. GOLDBERG: Is there any way of us proceeding forward this morning? It doesn't look like it.

THE COURT: I don't want to go forward without seeing what is going on with the jury and I think--

MR. GOLDBERG: I have no objection to that.

THE COURT: All right. Have a nice weekend.

MR. NEUFELD: Mr. Cochran, Mr. Shapiro with your permission?

MR. COCHRAN: More than fine. When would you come back?

MR. NEUFELD: Sunday night.

(Discussion held off the record.)

THE COURT: Back on the record. If you also recall, I was going to interview the sheriff's deputies this afternoon, so let's see how long this takes and we will see how far we get by, say, elevenish or so, and then we will have an idea of whether or not we will go forward with the sheriff's deputies this afternoon. Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: One question. Are you going to interview the jurors whose names are not--

THE COURT: I'm going to interview those jurors who have asked to speak to me.

MR. DARDEN: And only those?

MR. DOUGLAS: For continuity can I be allowed to stay, since I was here yesterday and the day before, and I take better notes than these guys anyway?

MR. DARDEN: They get three, we get three, and I would like to have three actually.

THE COURT: Okay. I don't have a problem with that.

MR. DOUGLAS: Thank you.

THE COURT: Are we still waiting for Marcia?

MR. DARDEN: If you want to get started, that is fine with me. I will have Mr. Goldberg.

MR. SHAPIRO: Off the record for a second.

THE COURT: All right. Off the record.

(Discussion held off the record.)

(brief pause.)

(recess.)

THE COURT: Mrs. Robertson, could we have no. 230, please.

(Brief pause.)

(Juror no. 230 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: Good morning. 230. How are you?

JUROR NO. 230: Fine, thank you.

THE COURT: If you recall, the last time we were in here chatting together--good morning, by the way.

JUROR NO. 230: Good morning.

THE COURT: --I indicated to you that you should feel free to drop a note to the bailiffs if you wanted to talk to me and I see you have taken me up on that?

JUROR NO. 230: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. And that policy is ongoing. What would you like to talk to me about?

JUROR NO. 230: I want to talk to you personally about the information that I hear that part of our staff has been dismissed.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 230: And I can only assume that it was based on the allegations that we--that you questioned us about the other day, and I personally felt that I just needed to state that I feel personally that they were falsely accused. If the Court made the decision based on those allegations, I don't know, and generally I guess we are just sort of spoiled because generally you let us know anything that affects us, you know, as a group, and even if you can't let us know, you would let us know that you can't let us know. And in this particular case, I guess that when we did hear the information, everybody was, you know, sort of upset.

THE COURT: How did you hear the information?

JUROR NO. 230: There was a questioned asked about--something that we are supposed to be doing Saturday which Deputy "I" had set up, and the information I guess came about that she no longer, you know, worked here, and after that, you know, it was just like haywire just spread all over. And like I said, I personally felt it was based on things that--you know, I just assumed that it was based on things that, you know, we discussed, and when I talked to the--the sergeant last night, he indicated that he could not discuss it; however, if we wanted to bring it to the Court's attention or discuss it with--you know, with you, that he would make that request, you know, on my behalf or anybody else who wanted to do the same thing, and that was the reason why the request was made.

THE COURT: When you say you feel that the deputies who have been reassigned--and the term is "Reassigned"--I mean, they are still sheriff's deputies and they are still working for us.

JUROR NO. 230: Right.

THE COURT: --what brings you to the conclusion that you feel they have been falsely accused?

JUROR NO. 230: Well, basically because of the allegations that you indicated that had come about and you had to do an investigation.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 230: And the questions that you questioned us about in terms of if we felt discriminated against or if we felt anybody was getting any special favors, or you know, or in terms of certain groups shopping longer than others, those particular questions, and I just personally felt that I needed to state that we have an outstanding staff and you have an outstanding staff. And when we first started, the situation it was hard on everybody. I felt it was hard on everybody. Everybody was complaining day after day about they wanted this, they needed that. If I can't run fifteen miles a day, I'm just going to drop dead, and if--you know, if I don't get my exercise, if I don't eat this, certain types of food, then we get a list of things that we could do and could not do, so you sort of felt institutionalized based on that. But as we got into week after week, the deputies indicated to us that this is not cast in concrete, that we would be making changes along the way. And there are people that make demands, and if they don't get them, then it is just something created in their mind that things are not being fair. And I think that things are exceptionally fair in my sense of understanding, because I thought that when I first came here, I expected it to be a lot worse than it was, and it turned out to be a lot better and it gets better and better as we go, you know, into it. And Deputy "I", Deputy "B" were the disciplinaries in the group. When they said we could not do anything, we could not do it, or if they said we had to contact the Judge, we had to contact the Judge, and--

THE COURT: Was there any specific instance that you can recall where "I" or "B" was the disciplinarian?

JUROR NO. 230: Well, not necessarily--I can't think of anything, per se, your Honor, but in terms of anytime a request would come up about things that just say, shopping, for instance, you know, you want to go to--somebody wants to go to a shopping mall, and Deputy "I" or "B" would say, you know, "Well, we can't do that." "Well, why can't we?" And you know, "It is just because it is out--it is not a controlled environment. We can better control the group if, you know, you go to … or you go to some little store like that versus sending you out in a mall." "Well, can't we talk to the Judge about it?" "Well, yes, if you want to talk to the Judge about it, you can, but basically right now this is something that we cannot do," that type of thing. I can't think of anything verbatim, but in terms of people crying about getting their fingernails done. Well, you know, "There is nothing we can do. We can't allow people to come in here." "Well, you know, I can't continue to go on if I can't get my fingernails done." Well, Deputy "I" would say, "I'm just sorry, there is nothing we can do. I can bring you something in here to take them off or something like that, but basically right now the Judge says we cannot do it." It has gotten to the point we can get our hair done, we can get our fingernails done and there is a lot of other things, but in order to run any type of ship, it takes those type people, I personally feel. And as far as special treatment, I don't think that anybody is getting any more treatment than anybody else. Everything has to go to you, through you, and if there is any special treatment, then you know, the special treatment comes through you, and as far as somebody being able to dial the telephone on their own, then I really want to know who that was because then they got special treatment as far as I was concerned. But it is just something that I felt that needed to be on the record, my personal feelings, that the staff was doing an outstanding job. And Sergeant "J" wanted to know was it something that I felt that was personal, was it something that I felt was--that basically that I think that happened, and after I thought--I don't know what I responded to him, but after I thought about it, it did become personal. We live with these people for over three months. You don't know anything about their personal lives other than if they have children. You know, you don't even know where they live because they say that they can't discuss these things, but you know, "After the trial, if you want to ask me anything, you are more than willing to do so." But you do know that they have, you know, mother, father, you know, sisters, brothers, children, and so you do build up a personal bond and it takes that to, you know, get on running and to make you feel more comfortable in your surroundings, I personally feel. So I just felt that I just needed to, you know, state that. That was all. You know, I don't want to waste the Court's time, but I felt that it was something that I needed to state.

THE COURT: No, no. 230, concerns that you have about this are not a waste of my time.

JUROR NO. 230: Okay.

THE COURT: And I appreciate your having sent me this note, and I am going to talk to the individuals who have indicated they want to talk to me about this.

JUROR NO. 230: Yeah, because I feel that in order for us to even be attentive to what is happening, if you feel something, you know, you have to stress it one way or another.

THE COURT: Well, your note here said that you needed to address this prior to getting started again.

JUROR NO. 230: Right, because it was a concern to me, personally it was a concern, and the sergeant wanted to know if anybody else felt that way, then get the list of numbers and he would, you know, submit it to you, so--but like I said, we can only, you know, go on what we just assume, you know, that happened based on the questions that you addressed us with earlier.

THE COURT: You seem to feel this very strongly.

JUROR NO. 230: Well, because it is factual as far as I'm concerned and I just don't want you to think that these people that you put in this position to assist us, and that is what they were there for, to assist us, not work for us or cater to us, but do make our lives a little bit more livable and to be the liaison between the Court and whoever they reported to and us. You know, we are the workers, and as far as I was concerned, that was the supervision, the sergeant was the manager and you are the chief. And that is just how I looked at it and that is how the chain of command came down, but I just felt that they have done an outstanding job and it is difficult, I don't care what anybody say, to deal with twenty something people, eighteen people, whatever the situation may be right now, and different personalities. You know, we all cannot get what we want when we want it, and you know, I believe if I ask for something and if I can't get it, I will come back again the next time, you know, with a better situation. I believe in building a better mousetrap, whatever it takes. If I can't--and it has happened. Everything that anybody wanted, they have gotten. You know, we are not here to run anything or to individually take over. We have to be in a controlled environment, and that is what everybody really needs to know. And because I told them a long time ago, they need to be locked down at nine o'clock. Everybody should be on lock-down and we won't have any of these problems, but you know--but that is neither here nor there, but that was just my own personal feelings and something that I just needed to state. That is all.

THE COURT: All right. No. 230, any other comment you want to make?

JUROR NO. 230: That is it.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Cochran.

(Discussion held off the record between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)

THE COURT: No. 230, I take it you are the one who actually wrote the initial note; is that correct?

JUROR NO. 230: No, I did not write the initial note, no.

THE COURT: All right. Whose handwriting is this, do you know?

JUROR NO. 230: I think that is--I don't know what her name is, Juror no. 1386.

MR. COCHRAN: Who?

THE COURT: 1386?

JUROR NO. 230: Yes.

THE COURT: How did this discussion come about to approach the Court about this, approach me about it?

JUROR NO. 230: The sergeant came in and, you know, he always checks--I guess at the end of the day he comes into see how everybody was doing, and at the time he came in and asked, you know, how is everybody doing and nobody really said anything, you know, other than depressed. You had people that were actually literally crying and--in one of the TV rooms because they were so upset about the information that they heard. And when I questioned the sergeant, you know, to talk to him about it, at that particular time he said that if--he said, "230, I cannot discuss it with you, but if you want to discuss it with the Judge," you know, that he will relay that information to him, and he says, "Does anybody else feel that way?" So that is how it came about.

THE COURT: How do you think this will affect your ability to work with all the other jurors?

JUROR NO. 230: I am here to do a job. I have no problems doing my job and I don't want you to think because I feel this way that it will affect me from working with anybody else. It will not. I am here simply because it was on my mind and I felt that it would have affected my job today. I would not have been able to concentrate. When there is something on my mind, I have to be able to get it off, that is just the type person I am, but yes, I will do my job and I will do, you know, like I said, 200 percent or whatever it takes, but--I'm not here to change the Court's decision. I'm not here to try to even, you know, think about that. It is just a matter of it was something that I felt that I personally needed to state. That was all.

THE COURT: All right. But the way you feel about this, will this--I'm talking about later on down the line, when the case is--you know, when you have to make decisions here, is this experience going to affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror and to work with the other jurors?

JUROR NO. 230: No, it will not.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. No. 230, thank you very much.

JUROR NO. 230: Thank you.

THE COURT: I'm going to direct you not to discuss this with anybody else.

JUROR NO. 230: Okay. Thank you very much.

(Juror no. 230 exits chambers.)

MR. COCHRAN: Can you inquire about the five people crying and of course how they know?

(Discussion held off the record between Mr. Cochran and Mr. Bailey.)

(brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I have not talked with Mr. Simpson. Apparently he needs to talk to me. I need to brief him. May I talk to him?

MR. BAILEY: He's very insistent, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: May I do that?

(Discussion held off the record.)

(brief pause.)

(recess.)

THE COURT: All right. Have we got everybody back? All right. Let's get going, guys, or we will never finish this.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Back on the record. Mr. Cochran, you had something you wanted to say. We are back in chambers.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly, your Honor, for allowing us a chance--we had not had a chance to speak with Mr. Simpson and he asked me to come back and to indicate the following to the Court. He is extremely upset that he is not able to hear what is happening. He says that when you speak of sequestration, he is the one who is more sequestered of all, and he feels that his rights are being abridged and violated and he feels that his life is virtually on the line and he wants to be present to hear what is happening with these jurors. He specifically has pointed out that there would be no way for anyone to know, the public or the press to know by 8:20, apparently, this morning, he says they were reporting that the jurors were refusing to leave the hotel or were going to protest for today by wearing dark clothing, whatever, for the deputies, if it hadn't been leaked by the deputies, and they were the only ones who were transporting these people, and that is exactly the problem. He says that he would like to be present to see, since his life is on the line in this regard and he wants me to renew the motion. He would like to address the Court in open court to--for himself, asked permission to address you on this issue. That is how strongly he feels. He says that he is in a terrible situation. He sits back there in the lockup, we are in here, and I told him the plan was to go through thirteen jurors and perhaps now really all eighteen at some point, and he wants to again in the strongest possible terms to express to the Court how unfair he thinks it is and he thinks this amounts really to state action. The sheriff's department is releasing information to the press. If the sheriff's department is treating some jurors differently, and he is aware that there is five people who have--apparently have not signed this and thirteen who are--and since people can't discuss this, he asked the logical question. How would these people all know about this, five people in a room crying because all of a sudden "I" isn't there? Obviously if there is an activity going on on Saturday, they are 8000 sheriff's deputies and so somebody else would just step up and do it, unless somebody said or brought this to a halt. It is more than just the questions that were asked, and you know, it is a difficult problem I think for all of us, Judge, because if you have five people saying we feel we are discriminated against, who knows better than those people? The other jurors were not in here when they were talking, and that is the problem. So it is obvious that somebody has said something to these jurors that they would get together and write this note and go in a room crying. And Mr. Simpson just wants to be present to see and hear because he has to hear it from us secondhand. And I told him I would communicate this to you and I would also--he also wants to address the Court directly on this issue.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: He wanted to make sure--he asked me "What about the other five?" And I told him that I had mentioned this to you at the desk, kind of a side bar at the desk, that I felt that now in view of we are going to talk to thirteen, it is going to exacerbate if we talk to thirteen people and five stay back there and nobody ever talks to the five, and he feels obviously we've got to talk to the five also.

THE COURT: What we are dealing with, first of all, is a request by these thirteen jurors to be heard.

MR. COCHRAN: Sure. I understand that, Judge, and I just wanted to get that as well as the other aspect. His problem is the Court has ruled he cannot be present. He feels he has a right to be present. He says he wants to be present and he wants to personally address the Court on that issue, and before you went any further he asked Mr. Bailey to come in and get us, and so Bailey did that, and I wanted to come in and express that to the Court.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: His other concern was this: That he thinks also that it will be unfair to the Defense. I had indicated to him that Mr. Darden had previously asked that these people are transferred and I did and we both did, basically yesterday, that the problem is, and here is how he phrased it, he says in a case where the police--the credibility of the police is being attacked, clearly that you have a situation where you have some jurors lining up with the police, and this is an issue that you and I, Judge, have discussed from the very beginning when I had some concerns about the sheriffs and the Stockholm Syndrome in everyone of those cases. And he says, "Well, look, how will that be?" And that is the last question you asked this juror, how will they be when they are sticking up for the sheriffs deputies in law enforcement who have a lot of control over these people and they do say things to them? The example is about this case lasting until Christmastime and he said June, July and August, doesn't sound so bad, we heard December, maybe we are going to go Christmas shopping. That is a joke. Those are the kind of things that sway with people, so the sheriff's department, good or bad, do everything for these people and so they look to them, you know. And I mean, they talk about our staff. This lady talked about our staff, and that is exactly what we talked about from the beginning. When we talk about our staff, what does that mean? Some people may not see them as our staff, some people do, but I think when you identify with them how do they then come out and vote their conscience in a situation, I think it somewhat strains credulity. So those are the things that he asked us to indicate to the Court.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: I think that Mr. Bailey points out correctly that if ever this comes to--suppose you found at the conclusion of this that this--the breach between those jurors is irreconcilable. You know, it is going to be very hard for Simpson to make any kind of informed decision. We have to go back and filter through our notes of what we interpreted in here. As this Court has said, I'm not sure this has ever happened, this area we are in today has ever happened before. You are a cautious man, it seems to me, and nobody loses anything. This Defendant should be present to hear this, and this is so unique, and some Court reviews that, that is going to be an interesting point, because you know, how can they make an informed decision?

MR. DARDEN: Well, the law is pretty clear that this Defendant has no right to be here, and I understand that he is a celebrity Defendant and he feels that the rules ought to be stretched or bent just for him, but the law is the law. And I just point out the law indicates that he has no right to be here while we question these jurors and he shouldn't be allowed to be. So I ask the Court not to change the rules or expand the rules just for Mr. Simpson. As for his request to address the Court, I would object to that. He has seven lawyers seated in a courtroom at any given time. Mr. Cochran and Mr. Shapiro are very eloquent and articulate men and I'm sure they can articulate Mr. Simpson's position to the Court, as they have already. So why don't we just get on with the process of questioning the jurors?

MS. CLARK: Perhaps it may be appropriate to talk to the other five, we have no objection to that, so that they don't feel singled out, and maybe it is appropriate just from the point of view that we want to know how they feel about the situation that has arisen today and how it will affect them. I mean, we don't oppose that, but I mean, I think that we are proposing this legal and proper manner, given the state of the law, and there is no reason to change the law because we have a celebrity Defendant. Proceed as we have and let's get this done and talk to these people. It is not--there is no Stockholm Syndrome going on here. Allegations to that effect are groundless. These jurors feel the way they do about the deputies as people. Let's not forget that this is an LAPD case and these are sheriff deputies that are guarding them, and they know the difference. They indicated they know the difference and clearly it has not had the effect that Mr. Cochran keeps referring to. And I mean, this is another one of those claims that are made that are just simply baseless. This is a personal thing and these jurors feel the way they do. They are entitled to their feelings, but we have to find out what those feelings are and how it will affect them, and we need to do it in a setting that will promote candor and promote comfort for them. And we are all aware of the fact in chambers a couple of jurors have sat down and looked around to see who is listening because they want that feeling of comfort and confidentiality, and without that we are not going to get them to be as forthright and candid. If you bring them out in the open courtroom and sit them there, why, it is bigger and wider, and I don't know where the presence or absence of Mr. Simpson really makes that much difference, as much as the very setting that we are required to be in makes a big difference. They don't have the confidentiality. They feel like they are grilled. They don't have that kind of security to give us the kind of candid responses we need. And we do need them in this situation.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, when we picked this jury--

THE COURT: Well, your position is you don't care if Simpson is here or not?

MS. CLARK: No. My position is the law does not permit him to be present and I'm asking the Court to stand firm on that.

THE COURT: It is not the law doesn't permit it; it doesn't require it.

MS. CLARK: He does not have a right to be present. He does not have a right to be present. That is the state of the law. The Defense is trying to hold the bludgeon of appellate reversal over the Court's head. Again that is not going to happen because the law clearly favors the Court's position and we ask the Court not to change it because that is the legal and correct position.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, we are at a unique juncture. Mr. Simpson was present when this jury was picked, outside of the presence of the public, and that in no way inhibited these jurors from hopefully being candid with us and telling us what was going on. And at this juncture we are in a crucial point where we may be raising issues that state action has been involved that will cause us to file a motion for dismissal with prejudice. And our client has to participate in that. This is now probably to date the most crucial part of the proceedings, and to not allow Mr. Simpson to be here, in my opinion, would be abuse of discretion.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, since I would like to conclude by saying this, by saying that nobody has introduced being a celebrity. That is in somebody's mind somebody as introducing a celebrity Defendant. If we had a client who is named John "J", it wouldn't make any difference, we would feel exactly the same thing. It has nothing to do with who he is. The fact he is the Defendant and fighting for his life is perhaps hard to understand that if you haven't defended somebody on this. It is hard to understand that. And I think you understand, as the Judge who sees all of it, how important this is, and the law has been misstated here. We talked about that case that we cited to the Court the other day. The case didn't say he couldn't be present. The Court has the discretion to do that. And what I'm saying, this is so uncharted and so unique and so different, no court has been faced with exactly this situation. And that one case whose name alludes me for the moment--

THE COURT: Garcia?

MS. CLARK: Not sir--

MR. COCHRAN: Siripongs, the Defendant waived the appearance of his lawyer apparently. The question here, Mr. Simpson is asking in very strong term he wants to be present and it is so unique, I mean, even Miss Clark indicates that she is not so worried because she likes this closed setting. Well, I think the Court is imaginative enough, we can do a closed setting. Just imagine this Judge, given this thing as you have indicated how unique, that he is back there, it is his life he is talking about and he can't see or hear anything of this. We have to tell him at breaks what is going on. He wants to be present. He wants to address you. I mean, what is wrong the jurors said--you talk to the jurors. Well, certainly you would hear from the Defendant at the appropriate time and that is all he is asking you to do. Can't say you wouldn't hear from him. That is not part of your style or anything to listen to people and then of course make your decisions. So those are the things that we have asked you to do and I think they seem to be very reasonable. Has nothing to do with any status. Nobody has brought that up at all. We are talking about who this man is and where we are at this time in this particular proceeding given what is happening. He has raised some interesting questions with us and I'm trying to share them with you, which we've already talked about.

MS. CLARK: Let's not forget what the issue is before the Court. The issue is the concerns of sequestered jurors about the removal of certain deputies. This is not a matter of witnesses in the trial. This is not a matter of evidence that is coming in and out. This is not a matter of evidence that may be stricken or suppression motions or any of that. And there is no reason why Mr. Simpson cannot read the transcript, cannot talk to his lawyers. He has a number of them, all of them very good, who can apprise him of the situation. There is nothing that Mr. Simpson would be able to add to what Mr. Cochran, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Bailey, Mr. Douglas is going to be able to do here. You know, I mean we have some great legal talent here, and we are not talking about that kind of evidence. We are talking about a situation where really we just have to allow the jurors to vent. There isn't even that much inquiry to be made, as we have seen. No. 230, these jurors want to talk to you. We are hearing them. That can be reported back to Mr. Simpson. But there really isn't much interaction going on here.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, it is much more serious than that. We have stopped the trial--

MR. DARDEN: Again.

MR. SHAPIRO: --in the middle of cross-examination of a crucial witness because in the words of the first juror, she is upset and depressed and cannot continue until she talks about this. What is she upset and depressed about? Who is going to watch them make phone calls, who is going to log in the phone calls, who is going to accompany them to outings and who is going to drive them to and from court. If they are upset about that, certainly this is a crucial area for Mr. Simpson's concern. It certainly is a crucial area for my concern. In 25 years of practice I have never heard anything close to this by a juror coming in and--jury coming in and actually refusing to participate as jurors until they are heard by the Court.

THE COURT: Well, that is something that is reported by the news media, not that I have seen yet.

MR. SHAPIRO: That is what they have said here in their letter.

MR. COCHRAN: No. 230 did tell us she had trouble concentrating today and wanted to get it off her chest. That is the first one. Moreover, Judge, she also told us something else, that five jurors are in a room crying, crying, Judge, literally crying because a sheriff's deputy isn't there any more. I mean, that is--that is incomprehensible, because both sides agreed to the removal, is incomprehensible unless somebody told these people, look, you go and do that. You go, and you know, and inferentially that is what happened. They had to have had the other information, and Judge, it had to be leaked by the sheriff's department.

THE COURT: Counsel, that is not the issue. That is not issue.

MR. COCHRAN: The state action isn't the issue?

THE COURT: No.

MR. COCHRAN: You don't think so?

THE COURT: No.

MR. COCHRAN: What is the issue, your Honor?

MR. DARDEN: The issue now--

THE COURT: The issue is whether or not I should allow your client to be present during this. That is the only real issue. If you--you have raised other issues regarding state action, regarding removal of jurors. I'm sure that this will be folded into that. The only real issue that I am concerned about is whether or not to allow your client to be present. I'm going to ask the back row to step out because I need some more room. Commander, would you invite Deputy Magnera to join us, please.

(Brief pause.)

DEPUTY MAGNERA: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Where is the commander?

DEPUTY MAGNERA: Do you want the commander back?

THE COURT: Yes.

DEPUTY MAGNERA: Commander.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Commander, does the sheriff's department have--what happened to Magnera?

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: What happened to Magnera? Does the sheriff's department have a policy regarding in-custody Defendant being in a Judge's chambers for a proceeding?

COMMANDER HOLLAND: Not that I am aware of.

THE COURT: Can you think of any reason why he should--should or should not be present if the bailiff is also present seated next to him?

COMMANDER HOLLAND: No.

THE COURT: Or standing over him?

COMMANDER HOLLAND: No. Just as long as there is some security in the court, which includes the chambers, there is no prohibition on that.

THE COURT: How is your client dressed?

MR. COCHRAN: He is dressed.

MR. SHAPIRO: He has got a suit on.

MS. CLARK: I just want you to ask yourself something, Judge. Would you do this for any other Defendant?

THE COURT: I have never been faced with this situation before.

MS. CLARK: Yeah, but--

MR. DARDEN: Think of the precedent you are setting for the rest of this trial.

MS. CLARK: That's right. You know, I mean--I have never heard of anyone ever entertaining a request for--and I have heard it made.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

MS. CLARK: --for a Defendant to be in chambers ever, ever, an in-custody Defendant.

THE COURT: Miss Clark, I'm trying to balance the intimacy of this setting, which I think we get much more candor out of, when I can talk eyeball to eyeball level with a juror. I agree with you that the issues that we are talking about here have nothing to do with guilt or innocence, which is the criteria that the bright line that the appellate courts have discussed what requires the Defendant's present, issues of guilt or innocence.

MS. CLARK: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: I think this is so inappropriate, Judge, really. Judge, can I say--it does, though, if you stop and think about it, it has to do with triers of fact in a case where a significant number of jurors feel one way, a lesser number would--also significant, because the majority of those are the jurors who disagree are on the jury, feel a different way, and that definitely goes to it, seems to me--Marcia makes the distinction of whether the juror is making a decision based upon whether the sheriff or LAPD. That is no distinction. The question will be is how do we feel about law enforcement ultimately? Will they have the strength and the fortitude to make a decision at some point in this case? And I see--

THE COURT: No, Mr. Cochran, that is an issue that is interesting to discuss, but I'm interested in precedent not only for this case, but others. I was interested in whether or not the sheriff's department had a policy, which apparently they do not. I am interested in, it seems to me, that given the, quote-unquote, impairment of these jurors, this may not be the last of these discussions with jurors, so we may be doing this often.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, you are--I'm sorry.

THE COURT: I'm also contemplating whether or not being out in the courtroom would be an appropriate setting, rather than in chambers.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, just one comment. If you talk about precedent, we have a commander from the sheriffs here who is not a party to this case, not a party to this jury and he is present. I mean, at least if there is some--any appearance of fairness for Mr. Simpson, Mr. Simpson, just for that reason alone should be present if a commander is going to be here.

MR. DARDEN: You know what the main problem with this case is and with the investigation and with how it has been tried and everything else, is that the system has bent over backwards for this one Defendant. All the rules have been broken and changed. The jail has been--parts of the jail have been reconstructed just for this Defendant and we have bent over backwards.

MS. CLARK: Shut the lab down, let them come into a Saturday to examine. I mean, I have never seen anything like it.

MR. COCHRAN: That has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

MS. CLARK: We are getting to the outermost reaches. They give an inch, they take a mile. The more you give, the more they are going to command. It is not that we have an interest in depriving the Defendant of any rights. Quite the contrary. But to create new rights and new entitlements for one celebrity Defendant seems unfair to both--to all the other defendants who will never be allowed to sit in chambers and listen to jurors and unfair to the people of the state of California where we create a new situation just for him.

THE COURT: Okay.

MS. CLARK: And what do they ask for next?

THE COURT: All right. In balancing the interests that are involved here, in balancing the candor that is encouraged by being in chambers, this court has never invited a Defendant into chambers before and I don't believe that to be appropriate course of action in this case either. We are talking about complaints that the jurors have with regards to their condition, the sequestration and the manner in which that is managed. That does not go to the guilt or innocence of this particular Defendant. So the request to be previous is again denied. All right. Let's have Juror no. 984.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: Are you going to inquire about the five crying?

MR. SHAPIRO: Judge, would you also consider asking the jurors how they would feel about civilians taking over the responsibility, except for transportation?

THE COURT: Well, their opinion is irrelevant.

MR. SHAPIRO: It apparently is relevant because they are coming in here having a blue flu and not participating.

(Juror no. 984 enters chambers.)

THE CLERK: Juror no. 984.

JUROR NO. 984: Good morning.

THE COURT: How are you?

JUROR NO. 984: Well, I will be okay.

THE COURT: What is the problem, 984? I got your note here.

JUROR NO. 984: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: And I want to again reemphasize the fact that anytime that you feel you need to talk to me about something, you are welcome to write me a note and communicate with me, and obviously this is a serious problem. Can you tell me what is on your mind?

JUROR NO. 984: Well, what is on my mind is I just--the other day when we talk--first for the record, I guess I would say, I had got the numbers mixed up on the gentleman that sits behind me. I think I said 247.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: But that is not his number. His number is I think 1489, I think.

THE COURT: Okay.

JUROR NO. 984: His number.

THE COURT: I remember the incident you talked about.

JUROR NO. 984: Yeah.

THE COURT: Okay.

JUROR NO. 984: Okay. I don't know. What bothers me is that you had mentioned something like special treatment from the deputies or--

THE COURT: I had asked about it, yeah.

JUROR NO. 984: Yeah, yeah, and there had been no type of special treatment from any of those deputies, and that is what I'm thinking that may have happened, why they had been, you know, moved someplace else or something.

THE COURT: What leads you to that conclusion? Did anybody suggestion anything like that to you?

JUROR NO. 984: No, no, just from talking to you and then all of a sudden they were gone, you know, just--and I know that a few of the other jurors had had, you know, not so much words with them or just didn't like some of their ways of doing things, or you know, like for instance when "B" first brought up the schedule, scheduling for the TV rooms, there was a big--I shouldn't say big, it wasn't all blown out, but people were just dissatisfied. A couple of jurors were just, you know, dissatisfied that things weren't going, you know, their way, and like you know, people were I guess, you know, evidently getting special treatment other than--you know, than they were. They weren't getting something that all of us don't get, you know. We all--as a whole we all do everything together.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: Now, when the couple jurors that I have in mind, when they don't participate in something, it is because of their own doing, you know. They stay in their room, and so when we come up with an idea to go someplace or do something they figure that they have been left out, you know. So I just think that "B", "A" and "I" got a raw deal, I really do, and I would really appreciate it if--they may not be able to come back, but you know, every now and then I would like to see them because they were a part of my everyday routine, you know.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Was this discussed amongst any groups of jurors last night?

JUROR NO. 984: Well, we all had our feelings. I'm not going to say that it wasn't. Deputy--Sergeant "J" came in and we all just expressed that we felt that we wanted to talk to you.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: You know.

THE COURT: I was told that there was a group in the TV room that was unhappy about this last night.

JUROR NO. 984: The majority of the people you are going to talk to today, but you know, it wasn't like a big discussion. We had a couple jurors that were really crying.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: You know, just upset. I went on to the gym and just worked out, you know, so I don't know if they were--if they were discussing anything or anything to that nature, but they were--we are were all in there.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: Yeah.

THE COURT: So it is sort of an assumption you are making that is the reason that this has happened?

JUROR NO. 984: Yeah, just I know--you know, from the conversation that we had the other day and then from--you know, noticing little things at the hotel, you know, little things like, you know. You had an incident one day. I was in my room so I couldn't really say who he was talking to, so I don't know, but I know that, what did I say--1489, Juror no. 1489--

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: --was in the hall discussing about some movies and so then the next day one of the jurors told me, I can't think of her number now, the little girl, 1492, said that he was out fussing about "A" about some movies that he didn't get to see because they weren't back--the people up front got to see the movies or something, that is hearsay, but I didn't see it, but I heard the elevator voice, but I didn't know what they were discussing because I go to bed at eight o'clock, 8:30 I'm in my room, so a lot of things I don't see--I don't get around to noticing. But I just--you know, those three deputies were really--you know, who were helpful to me during my two crises, and you know, I just feel like they should be there.

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Cochran, Miss Clark, any notes?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes, your Honor.

(Brief pause.) (Discussion held off the record between the Court, Mr. Darden and Mr. Cochran.)

THE COURT: 984, is there anything about this situation that will affect your ability to render a fair and impartial verdict in this case?

JUROR NO. 984: Oh, that doesn't have anything to do with how I feel about that. Yes, I can still do my job. Yeah, that doesn't have anything to do with that.

THE COURT: All right. You seem to feel very strongly about this.

JUROR NO. 984: I do. I really do.

THE COURT: Okay. My guess is that you made this--the determination that this was done because of the issues that we talked about earlier in the week?

JUROR NO. 984: Yes, but you know, what we talked about the other day.

THE COURT: All right. Did any of the sheriff's deputies mention to you what happened or why it happened?

JUROR NO. 984: No, no. Yesterday evening when we were downstairs, you know, to go upstairs to the fifth floor, I asked "J"--I said, "Where is "I"?" Because yesterday when Deirdra came to get us--and you know, I just missed and I thought maybe they were on a mission or something doing something else, and I asked Deputy "J", "Where is "I?" And he said, "Well, she won't be working here any more," you know, and then that was it, you know, and I just--but they didn't--no one mentioned anything like that.

THE COURT: I want you to listen to me very carefully. Do not speculate as to the reasons behind any of the changes.

JUROR NO. 984: Okay.

THE COURT: All right. But I'm also going to direct you not to discuss this with anybody else?

JUROR NO. 984: That is true.

THE COURT: Okay.

JUROR NO. 984: Umm, but if there is going to be any other changes like that like, our everyday thing, can you, you know, give us some idea of what is going on, or you know, say, well, look, I'm going to change these people, because we get used to people, you know.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 984: And you know, kind of give us some idea what is going on.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. Thank you very much, 984.

JUROR NO. 984: Okay. Thank you.

(Juror no. 984 exits chambers.)

THE COURT: And juror 984 has left, but I noted at the end of that discussion she was about to break into tears, which is why I stopped the conversation.

(Brief pause.)

(discussion held off the record.)

THE CLERK: Juror 2457.

THE COURT: All right.

(Juror no. 2457 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: 2457, good morning. How are you today?

JUROR NO. 2457: Fine, thank you.

THE COURT: Good. Can you tell me how you are feeling about the situation over with the sheriffs?

JUROR NO. 2457: I don't feel very good at all.

THE COURT: Tell me why.

JUROR NO. 2457: Because I don't see where they have done anything wrong and I don't understand why just two or three people can have such a voice and do something like that.

THE COURT: Okay. Tell me about--first of all, how did you find out about the changes in the personnel?

JUROR NO. 2457: How did I find out about the changes in the personnel?

THE COURT: Yeah.

JUROR NO. 2457: I didn't really find out. I just--I observed that this one wasn't over there and this one wasn't over there and I put two and two together.

THE COURT: All right. Was this discussed among the jurors last night?

JUROR NO. 2457: No.

THE COURT: I understand that there was a group in the TV room that was discussing this. Do you know anything about that?

JUROR NO. 2457: Well, I left early and went in, but there were a bunch in the TV room.

THE COURT: Did any of the sheriff's deputies mention to you the reason why this has happened?

JUROR NO. 2457: No, they wouldn't talk.

THE COURT: All right. And what is your--what is your opinion at this time as to why this has happened?

JUROR NO. 2457: I beg your pardon?

THE COURT: What is your opinion as to why this has happened?

JUROR NO. 2457: Well, from what I can understand, and the way it has been going all along, there is two, three people that seems to have difficulty, saying that they can do this on this end and they can do that--they can't do it on the other end, and you know, things like that, but that is their own fault. On the far end, seem like they--that is their room. On the other end, that is the other group's room. It is just about four stays on one end and the other group stays on the other end, as if they don't want to mingle. They are too loud on this end, they want quiet, and you know all--it is just--just a mess.

THE COURT: What do you think I ought to do about this?

JUROR NO. 2457: I really couldn't say. That is not for me to say.

THE COURT: But I would be delighted to hear your suggestions, if you have any?

JUROR NO. 2457: Okay. There is the supposed to be Juror no. 165, he always have something to say about way back yonder in 1922. That is his conversation about prejudice and stuff like that. That is wrong. Him and I are the same age, but I don't feel like that. I don't look at what happened when I was a kid coming up. I'm living for today, not the past tense.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 2457: But this is what he is living in, in the past. That is wrong. Now, he is supposed to be a Juror no. 165. Okay. There is the other one. He is supposed to be a Juror no. 1489. He is telling the younger ones that is over on that end what to say and how to maneuver. All that is wrong. I don't see that this should be done like that.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. When you say he is supposed to be a Juror no. 1489, which juror--the first one was 165, correct, the older gentleman?

JUROR NO. 2457: That is 165.

THE COURT: Okay. Who is the other one?

JUROR NO. 2457: The other one is--I don't know his number, but it is the other man with the thing here, (indicating).

THE COURT: Beard?

JUROR NO. 2457: Yes, and the bald spot up there, (indicating).

THE COURT: Okay. 1489, seat no. 10.

THE CLERK: 10.

JUROR NO. 2457: I don't know what seat he is in.

THE COURT: Okay. Okay. There are two groups. One like to have quiet movies, and the other one likes to talk during the movies?

JUROR NO. 2457: No, not really talk. I will put it to you this way: On this end is the lively bunch. They do things, say things to keep things moving, to keep you from feeling sad, you know, and things like that, just keep laughing and talking, you know, and on that end, over on the other end, they sets there and they wants to be, (indicating), like that.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 2457: In the position that we are in now, you have to do things to keep you going, laughing, something to make you laugh. This is helping you forget that you are in here. But they don't seem to feel that way. Like when we going somewhere, we will laugh and talk. "You all too loud" if they are in the van with us. Just complain, complain, complain, instead of trying to just all--the whole group just try to get along.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Well, the problem is, you know, we replaced and transferred some of the sheriff's deputies.

JUROR NO. 2457: Yes.

THE COURT: How do you feel about that?

JUROR NO. 2457: Really and truly, I don't see anything. Why? I don't understand it. That is the whole thing about it. Okay. All the one that I know of, I don't know them all by name, but the ones that I do know by name, they have tried to go along with us. They try to help us.

If we ask them to--can we get somebody in to do the nails, she will go out of her way to get some of her associates or her friends or somebody to come in to see about taking care of us for our nails and things like that, or our hair or whatever, so I mean, this is doing us a favor. And all of that bunch on the other end, they don't want no nails, they don't want anything like that. When the lady came in to give us the massage and stuff like that, none of them didn't go. It is just the ones on the far end. We like those kind of things. All this is helping us.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 2457: But not them.

THE COURT: When you said that the taller gentleman with the balding spot and the beard was telling the young jurors what to say--

JUROR NO. 2457: Now, that is me saying this.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 2457: He talk to the young child, umm, what is her number, 453, I think it is--

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 2457: --she sticks over in that crowd with them and he look like he tells her different things, and you know, he pushes her up to say things. That is me, my belief.

THE COURT: Have you ever heard anything directly yourself?

JUROR NO. 2457: Well, I'm in between them. They will take me on either end. They will accept me on either end because I don't have nothing to say. I just sit there and listen. And I have seen them talking, but to say word for word, I can't say.

THE COURT: Do you know the topic of what they were talking about?

JUROR NO. 2457: (No audible response.)

THE COURT: Or as best you can recollect what was said?

JUROR NO. 2457: Well, one time they were talking about they were doing more--for instance, like the movie, "B" was bringing in the movies. He would say the movie had to be shown on this end first. After the movie is shown on that end, then you will take it to the other end and show it. That was fine. They didn't like that on that end. But okay, now if you getting along fine, why not--they are showing the movie on this end, why didn't we all look at the movie? This is the way I see it. I mean, hey, just all of us just go in this room and look at this movie now if we want to see it now. But they had an argument on that end. They got to complain about "The ones on this end gets the movies first, how come we can't get them first," children stuff, just plain old children, and all of us are supposed to be grown. They are younger ones but still we are all grown.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Was there anything else that this other juror was telling the younger juror, 453, to do?

JUROR NO. 2457: Umm, like I said, I don't be knowing exactly how it be going down. Like I said, I hear and don't hear.

THE COURT: Okay. I appreciate your taking the time to talk to us about this again, and I want you to understand that at any time, you know, my comment to you yesterday--

JUROR NO. 2457: Yes.

THE COURT: --that I was happy to talk to anybody who wanted to talk to me, that obviously still stands.

JUROR NO. 2457: Sure.

THE COURT: Is there anything about this experience that you think will cause you to have difficulty in being a fair and impartial juror in this case?

JUROR NO. 2457: No.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about the problems that we've had that would cause you to identify with either--or favor either the Prosecution or the Defense in this case because of your dealings with the sheriff?

JUROR NO. 2457: No.

THE COURT: All right. Anything else you want to tell me?

JUROR NO. 2457: No.

THE COURT: All right.

JUROR NO. 2457: Like I said, they takes me on either side; I'm in between.

THE COURT: I understand.

JUROR NO. 2457: I can mix with this side and I can mix with that side.

THE COURT: All right. 2457, thank you very much for coming in.

JUROR NO. 2457: Thank you.

THE COURT: And don't discuss this with anybody else.

JUROR NO. 2457: I won't.

THE COURT: 1492, please.

(Brief pause.)

(Juror no. 2457 exits chambers.)

THE COURT: Just so the record is clear, I'm calling the jurors in in order--in the order on the letter from the jury dated April 20th.

MR. COCHRAN: Who is Juror no. 1386?

THE COURT: 1386.

MR. COCHRAN: That is blond lady who wrote you before?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Commander, I would say it is safe to say we are not going get to the sheriff's deputies this afternoon.

COMMANDER HOLLAND: Okay. I will let them know.

THE COURT: Okay.

(Brief pause.)

THE CLERK: Juror 1492.

(Juror no. 1492 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: 1492, how are you? Come on in. Sit down.

JUROR NO. 1492: Good morning.

THE COURT: I can tell by the look on your face you are just okay.

JUROR NO. 1492: It is really okay.

THE COURT: What is up?

JUROR NO. 1492: Well, I wasn't pleased with the decision about the deputies.

THE COURT: Tell me one.

JUROR NO. 1492: For one, I'm probably going to need some tissue.

THE CLERK: On your desk, Judge.

JUROR NO. 1492: Deputy "A" was really the only deputy I felt comfortable talking about anything, you know, discussing the problems that I had, and you know, personal, work-related. He really went out of his way to try to comfort me. Deputy "I", she is the only deputy that cried with me with the death of my family. She even teared up when I thought I was losing my job due to a layoff.

I just--it just didn't seem right to me that they were gone like that and I really didn't have a say so, you know. Then after talking to you day before yesterday, I really thought about the questions you had asked, and there was more than that that I wanted to talk about, because more had been building up. I don't know, a few things that I didn't think were so serious at the time, but the more I talked, you know, thought about it, it came to my mind that maybe they were an issue that should have been brought up and I didn't do it.

THE COURT: What is that?

JUROR NO. 1492: There were a lot of incidents that I've listened to people say a lot of negative things about other people. I have listened to one juror call a deputy a bastard and for no reason at all to me. There was--Deputy "B". We were loading the elevator one morning on our way to court and they take two groups down at a time. I happened to be on the first group in that elevator, and he asked--when we got down to the bottom level, he asked Deputy "L" could he open the vans up, both of the vans, while he went back up to the next group of jurors. This juror, you know, said, "Them damn bastards been telling me what to do all my life," you know. That really got to me, but I kind of let it slide by and tried to ignore it.

THE COURT: Who said this?

JUROR NO. 1492: 165.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1492: On many other occasions I've heard him say similar things. I know once when I was coming back from dinner we used to line up for the phone, and you know, people will say, "Well, can you add my name to the list?" Juror no. 19 asked me to do this one night and I told him, "Okay," and 165 overheard that and he asked me, "Do you love him?" I'm like, "What?" "Do you love him? Don't be a hypocrite because I've watched him go and talk to"--I don't know the juror's number, Juror no. 602 or Juror no. 602, the male juror that is gone now, "And I see him go over there and talk to him after he finished talking, talking to us," but I'm thinking this man is just paranoid. And I told him, you know, I didn't love him more than I loved anybody else on that jury. There is--I have listened to one--during our first weeks here, ……… …………………………

(Proceedings held in camera, not included in released order of transcript.)

And then I started thinking about the questions you asked about the trips to the stores and about the favoritism. Like I said, I requested that we go to Ross and I requested that we go to … I requested that we went to Newbury's and I felt, you know, if it was favoritism, was it favoritism toward me? I didn't think so. I think--

THE COURT: What deputy was handling your group?

JUROR NO. 1492: Every time I've asked to go somewhere, I went through "H" or "I".

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1492: They always came through with it. And the ..., I stayed the longest in ... For when I had wrote a check and their system was down, so I was the hold-up in ... I guess. It took a long time for me to get out of there and I still needed to get things from …, so they let me go to … it just happened to be a group of us, you know, that one group stayed behind, another group went ahead. I didn't think it was a problem. But you can overhear them, you know. Every time we do something certain people have certain things to say. And I try to always let it slide and right now I'm about tired of it. I've gotten into a van--a van that I hate to get into because you see nothing but a bunch of sad faces. When I got in the van, we were on the way to the … game. I was the first one to get in this van and it is the van certain people generally ride in, and as soon as ... Walked up, it is, "Oh, shit" that I'm sitting there in the front seat. I let that slide. Once at a lunch I'm sitting down--I get tired of getting the negative comments. I have my CD player and I have my headphones--I had the music wrapped around my neck. They got mad about it and wanted me to turn it down. I knew it couldn't be that loud because it was coming through the headphones, it can only get so loud. And the next thing you hear 453 and 165, you know, "It is ignorance," and you know, "That is what is wrong with black people today." I tuned that out. Now, I don't think I was the only person that heard this because I was sitting down talking to another juror. It is just many occasions that they have come up with such stories, and I don't know if it is a figment of their imagination or if it is real, but I don't know how it can go on.

THE COURT: Do you feel that it was unfair for these sheriff's deputies to be reassigned?

JUROR NO. 1492: Somewhat, yes.

THE COURT: When you say "Somewhat," yes?

JUROR NO. 1492: Do I think it was unfair? Yeah, I really believe that they didn't do anything wrong.

THE COURT: Okay. Any other reason?

JUROR NO. 1492: No, that is all.

THE COURT: Okay. Anything else you want to tell me?

JUROR NO. 1492: No, that is it.

THE COURT: Okay. This--did you discuss this with any of the other jurors last night, the change of the deputies?

JUROR NO. 1492: Well, no. Last night, once I heard, I was very upset. Like I said, me and Deputy "A", we were somewhat close, because I did feel comfortable talking to him. I had tears coming out of my eyes and they saw how upset I was and they were, "What's wrong?" And I'm like, you know, "I'm upset over the deputies being gone," but no, we didn't go into it. We kind of left it at that.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about this experience that is going to cause you to be an unfair juror?

JUROR NO. 1492: No.

THE COURT: Is there anything that might cause you to favor one side over the other because of what has just happened?

JUROR NO. 1492: No.

THE COURT: Okay. All right.

MR. COCHRAN: May we approach?

(Discussion held off the record between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)

THE COURT: 1492, is there anything about this situation that you think will make it difficult for you to get along with these other jurors? I mean, obviously there is some--

JUROR NO. 1492: There is some friction, but I keep my distance, but I am--I can do my job.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1492: You know, it is up to them to do theirs.

THE COURT: All right. This morning over in the jury room, is there anything discussion about this?

JUROR NO. 1492: No. Kind of quite it.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. 1492, I'm going to order you not to discuss this issue--

JUROR NO. 1492: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: --that we have just talked about here. And I want you to understand that anytime you feel something is necessary to talk to me about, you are welcome to do so, and that is why we stopped the trial again because I wanted to talk to you all who indicated this to me. All right. Thank you very much.

JUROR NO. 1492: Thank you.

(Juror no. 1492 exits chambers.)

THE CLERK: Juror 1290.

(Juror no. 1290 enters chambers. )

THE COURT: Juror no. 1290, how are you?

JUROR NO. 1290: Fine, thank you.

THE COURT: Something you need to talk to me about?

JUROR NO. 1290: Yeah. I happened to be one person that is very upset about the loss of the deputies--

THE COURT: Tell me why.

JUROR NO. 1290: --at the hotel. Well, it seems like the best of the bunch have been removed. In other words, the most amiable, friendly ones that we could talk to, and you know, joke with a little bit, that, you know, seemed to be understanding and willing to help us the most are the ones that have been removed and it is just kind of upsetting.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. How did this come to your attention that these deputies had been reassigned?

JUROR NO. 1290: We asked. We missed them yesterday, and when we went back, we asked one of the deputies, "Where is "B", "I?" And he said, "They won't be here any longer."

THE COURT: Who did you ask?

JUROR NO. 1290: Umm, I think it was Deputy "N" or "O".

THE COURT: Okay.

JUROR NO. 1290: The two were together. They just said, "They won't be here" and he said, "I can't say anything further than that."

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Was there any discussion among the jurors last night about this?

JUROR NO. 1290: Not anything specifically. We said--we just said we felt bad and we want to let the Judge know how we feel. We didn't do anything other than that. Then one of the gals wrote you a note, I guess, and we just all signed it. That was basically it.

THE COURT: What discussion was there about this issue this morning?

JUROR NO. 1290: (No audible response.)

THE COURT: At breakfast or on the bus over?

JUROR NO. 1290: On the bus over, I don't think anybody said anything. It was kind of a glum trip. But last night we spoke a little bit. Felt like we had to say something and make a statement. That is basically it. We didn't--we didn't know any details, you know, the whys or wherefores about it all, but just wanted to let you know how we felt about it.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Do you think it was unfair for me to reassign these deputies?

JUROR NO. 1290: Well, of course I don't know the reason. You know, again I don't know what is behind it, and I'm sure you did it for a good reason. I don't think you would do something like this just, you know, for laughs, but I basically just wanted to, you know, say how I felt about it.

THE COURT: All right. Do you think that any of those deputies did anything to warrant being reassigned?

JUROR NO. 1290: No, nothing that I could see. Of course I wasn't around every deputy all the time.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1290: But no, I surely don't.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about this latest wrinkle that would cause you to be unfair to either side here?

JUROR NO. 1290: Oh, no, no. That is aside the case. I mean aside from.

THE COURT: Okay. Is there anything about this situation that might make it difficult for you to work with any of the other jurors?

JUROR NO. 1290: No, although, you know, I do--I do remember hearing complaints by certain jurors about at least one of these deputies.

THE COURT: What complaint?

JUROR NO. 1290: Grumbling about it.

THE COURT: Tell me about that.

JUROR NO. 1290: In fact, it had happened when Sergeant "J" was there, about "A". Sergeant "J" was in the--what room was it? I guess the upstairs room where we have--I don't know if it was there or in the deliberation room.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1290: When 1489, 462 and I think maybe a couple more jurors chimed in saying something about his attitude and that he had closed a certain room. 1427 popped up and explained why that room had been closed, and Sergeant "J" was there hearing all of this, of course, so I know there have been complaints about "A" at least.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1290: And of course I'm kind of putting two and two together, but don't really know.

THE COURT: Well, you are not to speculate as to why this is happening.

JUROR NO. 1290: No, no, I'm trying not to.

THE COURT: All right.

JUROR NO. 1290: No. As far as the case to me is a separate issue, but I just wanted to let you know how I felt about that--that happening.

THE COURT: Was there any discussion about jurors today wearing dark Ilothing in the court or anything like that?

JUROR NO. 1290: Yes. We were going to wear our … … … today.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 1290: And we just felt so down last night, I think somebody said, "Let's just wear black instead." I mean, there was no big discussion about it. And some of us did and some of us didn't, obviously, but that is it.

THE COURT: Okay.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: That would have been interesting to see all of you in there wearing … … T-shirts.

JUROR NO. 1290: We did get permission from a deputy.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Last night did you notice any--that any of the jurors were particularly upset about this?

JUROR NO. 1290: Yes.

THE COURT: Tell me about that.

JUROR NO. 1290: 1492 was crying and I noticed the other deputies themselves being very glum, like they are afraid to, you know, say anything to us or--of course, we knew they don't discuss it. We didn't try to get them to discuss it. I would say 1492 in particular was very upset. A couple of jurors went and changed into their sweats and went in to exercise, a couple of jurors that ordinarily don't at that time of day, and people, grumpy, sad faces, this type of thing mostly.

THE COURT: Is there any--do you sense any--any build-up of animosity between any of the jurors because of complaints made about these deputies who have been reassigned?

JUROR NO. 1290: I think so. It is probably capped, something that was already there, and I don't hear any big discussion about it, it is just people are grumpy and sad and upset more than anything, I think.

THE COURT: Okay. No. 1290, I'm going to order you not to speculate as to any of the reasons why any of this has happened. Also, you are not to discuss this with anybody else, but I appreciate your wanting to speak to me at any time. As I indicated, anytime you think you need to talk to me, you are welcome to just pass a note and I will get to you.

JUROR NO. 1290: Okay.

THE COURT: Thanks a lot.

(Brief pause.)

(Juror no. 1290 exits chambers.)

(discussion held off the record.)

(recess.)

THE COURT: Let's go back on the record. Before I bring the next one in, I wanted to make an observation for the record. 1492, as she came in, needed a tissue and proceeded to cry during the entire commentary. And I did not make that observation for the record because my diligent staff, Miss Robertson, went and got the next juror before I could make that observation for the record.

(Juror no. 1427 enters chambers.)

THE CLERK: 1427.

THE COURT: Hi, 1427. How are you today?

JUROR NO. 1427: Fine. How are you?

THE COURT: Have a seat. I understand that there's some concern amongst the jurors concerning the change in personnel.

JUROR NO. 1427: Yes, there is.

THE COURT: Tell me about that.

JUROR NO. 1427: First, I'm going to start off--I hope you don't mind me reading from my notes. I prepared something.

THE COURT: No.

JUROR NO. 1427: I think it's real important that I present to your attention the circumstances surrounding an incident that involved one of the deputies and some of the jurors. On Friday night, March 21st--March 24th--I'm sorry--probably 10:00 P.M., we had I recall four deputies working the night shift. I along with jurors no. 63, 1489--I am sorry--1492 and others were sitting in the back TV room watching the taping of Melrose Place. 10 minutes into taping, juror 1233 walked in and asked if she could be taken down to the steam room on the 4th floor gym. Deputy "A" replied that he was short of deputies, he only had four deputies that night and that he would try and accommodate her as soon as he could spare a deputy. She replied in an angry tone of voice, saying something to the effect that the gym should always be made available to us. She was referring to the gym on the 4th floor, and she walked off a little upset. Deputy "A" then asked us in the TV room if we would mind if he closed down that TV room and took the program that we were watching to the front TV room. This way, he would be able to watch two rooms at once, meaning the front TV room and the gym on the 5th floor because they need someone to watch that gym as well because someone was in there using it. And he proceeded to close down a card room and I believe he might have closed down the phone room in the back so he could go to the front. So we all said okay. So we moved to the front TV room. We started watching our program. Then juror 1489 walks in and tells Deputy "A", "I thought you guys were going to close this TV room down." Deputy "A" explained to him that he simply transferred a movie from the rear TV room to the front room so this way, he could watch two rooms at once and enable jurors to use the 4th floor gym and steam room. 1489 again said, "Well, I don't understand why you guys say you're going to close down this TV room and then you don't close it down." Then Deputy "A" again explained the situation for a second time to 1489, and again, 1489 stated he did not understand why first the deputies say they're going to do something and then they turn around and do another thing. So after this incident on March 27th, Sergeant "J" spoke to the entire jury in the small deliberation room. He laid down some groundrules on how the TV room situation and the gym hours were going to be handled from now on. At that time, juror 1489 brought up the TV room incident with "A" implying that he was not acting fair, and 1233 also complained about the availability of the 4th floor gym and the steam room. At that point, I raised my hand and pointed out to Sergeant "J" that I had heard and seen what had actually happened, and in my eyes, Deputy "A" was simply doing the best to accommodate everyone he could. As soon as I finished expressing my opinion, ex juror 462 raised her hand and said something to the effect, "Well, I don't like the tone of voice Deputy "A" uses when he addresses me."

And, your Honor, I just feel that I--since I've been here, I've never been disrespected, favored nor catered to by any of the deputies nor have I witnessed anything of the sort with regards to other jurors and I believe there is a perception problem among some of the jurors who are making allegations. I have observed the behavior of jurors 1489, 1233, 165 and 453 for three months now and I have seen them disrespect the deputies, other jurors and myself at one point or another. And I don't really care what these people say or do to me personally, but I think it is unfair for them to scrutinize the deputies because their jobs, their careers and their livelihood are on the line. And that's why I felt I had to speak up today, because I think it is very unfair that they be put in this type of situation, and I kind of figured out that complaints had been made against deputies "B", "I" and "A" from the questions you were asking us a couple of days ago and it was just coincidental that suddenly these deputies disappear the day following the individual juror meetings that we had. So that's really all I wanted to say.

THE COURT: All right. Last night, was there any discussion that you are aware of regarding the disappearance or the reassignment of these three deputies?

JUROR NO. 1427: No. I remember somebody asked, oh, where's "I" or "B" because we noticed their absence. Then a deputy said, "Well, they're not going to be working here anymore," and that's all the deputy said. And we just looked at each other and we felt--I don't know. We just felt really upset because so many changes are made and we had grown accustomed to these deputies and it seems like we never know what's going on. I feel--personally, I feel like I'm at the mercy and other people are at the mercy of the whim of select individuals who complain about things like this.

THE COURT: Do you see any problems given this situation in being a fair and impartial juror in this case?

JUROR NO. 1427: No. I have nothing against anybody here. I just want--I'm not here to make friends or enemies. I'm just here to do my job and that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to stay out of conflict as much as possible and I'm trying to just keep to myself as much as I can.

THE COURT: All right. I notice you're wearing dark clothing today. Is that on purpose or for a reason?

JUROR NO. 1427: Well, we--before all this came about yesterday, we were talking about wearing our ******************* T-shirts. And after we found out the deputies were taken away, we just decided not to wear them and, you know, somebody--I remember overhearing someone said something to the effect that, you know, "I feel like I'm in mourning," and I just--I just--I just happen to be dressed in black and I just feel like it's a sad situation and that's why I'm dressed the way I am.

THE COURT: This morning, was there any discussion on the van coming over or in the jury room this morning about these incidents?

JUROR NO. 1427: No. Not--no. Everyone was really quiet and sad.

THE COURT: Did you see any of the jurors in the TV room last night upset about this?

JUROR NO. 1427: I walked in and you could just tell that people's spirits were kind of low. You could just tell from their demeanor that they were a little upset.

THE COURT: Okay. Well, it seems to me since you've written out this note that it's more than being just a little upset.

JUROR NO. 1427: Well, yeah. After, you know--after I saw that the deputies were taken away, I just feel that I have to speak up now and say something because this might go on the record of the deputies. This might make them look bad in the eyes of their superiors, and it's not fair that nobody speak up when they see that something's--they feel that something is wrong, and I feel something is definitely wrong here.

THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Cochran? Mr. Darden?

MR. DARDEN: No questions.

THE COURT: 1427, thank you very much. I'm going to order you not to speculate as to why these changes have been made. Don't discuss this with anyone else.

MR. COCHRAN: Can we have a sidebar?

THE COURT: Hold on. Don't go away.

(Discussion between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)

THE COURT: Has there been, since this reassignment of the deputies, either at the evening meal or during any of the television watching last night, any interaction between the--amongst the jurors, anybody--any groups separating themselves from this discussion?

JUROR NO. 1427: Everybody was scattered all over the place. Some people were in the phone room, some people were watching the movie, some people were working out in the gym and some people were in their rooms. I mean just the same as every other day.

THE COURT: Do you think that this reassignment is causing additional tension amongst the jurors?

JUROR NO. 1427: I think it makes us feel very uneasy because I feel like I'm--like I said before, anything could be said against me or anyone else here and it could be untrue, and yet we're going to be put under scrutiny in the future; and I just want to make sure that you know that there's a trend here in the type of behavior I see among certain jurors, and it's been occurring since the beginning and it's just building up and I--

THE COURT: You mentioned when we talked--I don't recall if it was yesterday or the day before, but you mentioned something about an incident in the elevator with 1489.

JUROR NO. 1427: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Sort of shoving you in the elevator a number of times. Has anything like that occurred since that incident?

JUROR NO. 1427: This morning, he--he got right next to me. He wedged himself between me and another person in the elevator. And this morning, I noticed when Deirdra walked into the jury room and she said, "Do you people feel you need to speak to the Judge," he kept on--his tone of voice was like, "I don't see any problem." You know, he's just--seems so glib to me. And then after Deirdra left, he--he made it a point to look at me directly in the eye. He was staring at me for at least three seconds straight without moving his eyes from me. He gave me a very, very intimidating type of look, and he's never looked at me that long since we've been here.

THE COURT: Did you in response to Mrs. Robertson's question, "Does anybody feel they need to talk to the Judge," did you say anything in response?

JUROR NO. 1427: Yes. A lot of us said we did. A lot of--you know, everybody was speaking at once and I was the one who said, "Yes, I think we do."

THE COURT: Okay. Don't go away. Hold on.

(Discussion between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)

THE COURT: You mentioned there were incidents where you feel certain jurors have been disrespectful to the deputies. Can you tell me or give me an example of any of those?

JUROR NO. 1427: Just the tone of voice that 1233 uses with Deputy--used with Deputy "A", that one incident where she wanted to use the steam room. I overhear them talk about respect a great deal, that people have to learn to respect one another, and they go on and on, but yet, when they talk to someone, for example--for example, 165, he has this tone of voice that he uses. When he speaks to me, for example, he doesn't even know my name. I don't even think he knows my name. And he says, "You, you over there, hey you," and he never uses my name or my number. Yet, I sit next to him in the jury box and I also room right next to him in the hotel. So I just--and just the fact that whenever I walk into a room, they give me the silent treatment. They--

THE COURT: How about--you mentioned towards the deputies, certain jurors have been disrespectful to the deputies.

JUROR NO. 1427: Just the tone of voice they use with the deputies. Like, for example, 165, he'll ask for something. Like I noticed one thing with "A", I remember he asked for something. I don't remember what it was, and Deputy "A" could not accommodate him right away. And 165 said, "Oh, oh, forget it. Forget it," and then "A" said, "But, sir, wait a minute. Let me explain to you why I can't accommodate you." And he just wouldn't give him the chance to explain himself and he just said, "Forget it, forget it," and he turns and walks away. He's not willing to listen.

THE COURT: Okay. 1427, I'm going to order you not to speculate as to the reasons why these changes have occurred. You're not to discuss this with any other juror. All right?

JUROR NO. 1427: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you very much.

JUROR NO. 1427: Okay.

THE COURT: Can we have no. 63, please.

(Juror no. 1427 exits chambers.)

(Juror no. 63 enters chambers.)

THE CLERK: Juror 63.

THE COURT: 63, why don't you have a seat. I understand that there's some unhappiness. Can you tell me about that?

JUROR NO. 63: Well, I don't know the course of events leading up to yesterday, but I know that the loss of the three deputies from our staff is going to be greatly felt and--

THE COURT: Why is that?

JUROR NO. 63: Because they've gone at an integral part of our daily life and they were good and hard-working people. And I hope that whatever happened, it hasn't, you know, negatively affected their life or their career or anything like that.

THE COURT: Do you feel that there was no reason, no misconduct on their part that would cause anything--cause them to be reassigned?

JUROR NO. 63: Not that I saw. I mean like I said, I don't know what happened, but my perspective is that I never saw anything wrong.

THE COURT: Okay. How did it come to your attention that these three deputies had been reassigned?

JUROR NO. 63: Well, I don't know that they've been reassigned. I just knew they weren't in the hotel anymore. I mean they weren't there at the end of the day when we went back to the hotel. So they're--they're not with us anymore.

THE COURT: Was that discussed last night? I understand there was discussion in the TV room about this. Were you part of that discussion?

JUROR NO. 63: A discussion?

THE COURT: About the missing three deputies?

JUROR NO. 63: Well, it was obvious that they weren't there anymore. I don't know--I mean--

THE COURT: All right. Do you feel that there's anything about this particular change in the deputies that would cause you to have any problems being a fair and impartial juror in this case?

JUROR NO. 63: No.

THE COURT: Is there anything about this change that would cause you a problem in getting along with the other jurors?

JUROR NO. 63: No.

THE COURT: I notice you're wearing dark clothing today. Is there a reason for that?

JUROR NO. 63: Well, wasn't a happy day.

THE COURT: Okay. I had heard you were all going to wear your ************** T-shirts today.

JUROR NO. 63: We had planned on it, but I don't--I mean, I for one didn't think it was appropriate for me to come in here wearing a T-shirt this morning if I knew I was going to be talking to you.

THE COURT: Okay. And, no. 63, I want to emphasize that you always have the opportunity to come in and talk to me. And I'm getting around to it and I take your discomfort seriously in this situation. This morning, has there been any discussion of this issue in the jury room?

JUROR NO. 63: No.

THE COURT: How about on the van ride over or during breakfast?

JUROR NO. 63: No.

THE COURT: Okay. Is there anything you feel you ought to tell me about?

JUROR NO. 63: No. I just--you know, when things like this happen and things like we talked about on Wednesday happened, you know, they're upsetting and I just don't want it to obstruct or overshadow the reason why we're all here.

THE COURT: All right. No. 63, I'm sorry. Obviously you feel very strongly about that. Do you feel that you've formed an attachment to those jurors--I mean to those bailiffs?

JUROR NO. 63: It's just like I said. I mean, when you're--when you're living and breathing and working with the same people for what has it been, almost four months now, you know, you grow accustomed to having them with you everyday, and they will be missed.

THE COURT: Okay. No. 63, I'm going to direct you not to speculate as to why these things have occurred. You're not to discuss this with any of the jurors. And if you'll hold on just a second.

(Discussion between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)

THE COURT: Is there anything about this--obviously you feel very strongly about this. Is there anything about this--you indicated you felt that the jurors were an integral--I mean the bailiffs were an integral part of your life up to this point. Anything about that, the loss of these bailiffs, that will affect your ability to listen to the facts of the case as they're presented and to be a fair juror?

JUROR NO. 63: No.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. No. 63, thank you very much. And if you do feel--do continue to feel that you need to talk to me, that the door is open. All right.

JUROR NO. 63: Okay. Thanks.

THE COURT: Thank you.

(Juror no. 63 exits chambers.)

THE COURT: All right. I'm going to--why don't you bring me--department g, we are going to go back in the court. I'm going to tell the jurors we're going to continue to talk to them, not to speculate what's going on, I'll get to each one of them who've asked to speak to me and we'll continue this on Monday.

MR. DARDEN: You know, I just handed Mr. Cochran a note expressing the point of view that I wish you'd talk to 453 today before you broke just to see how she's doing and how she's handling this.

THE COURT: Deputy g, do we still have Mr. Simpson?

THE BAILIFF: Yes.

THE COURT: We're going to go back into a quick session.

THE BAILIFF: I've got the caterer setting up.

THE COURT: Oh, you do?

THE BAILIFF: He's already setting up.

THE COURT: Then what I am going to do then, with the reporter and one counsel from each side, I'm going to go in the jury room, tell them that I have received their communication and I am in the process of granting their request to speak to the Court and that we'll continue this on Monday and not to speculate as to any of the reasons why we're talking to them. All right. Let's move over there. I'm going to order all counsel, all persons present not to make any comment on this matter publicly until further order by the Court.

(The following proceedings were held in the jury room in the presence of the jurors with Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran present.)

THE COURT: Hello. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

THE COURT: I received a letter from a number of you asking to talk to me. As I mentioned to you when we spoke earlier this week, that I have an open-door policy. Any time any of you feel you need to talk to me, that I have an open door, and I will get to you. I've started doing that this morning and, you know, I've talked to a number of you this morning and haven't had time to finish that. So I will continue this process on Monday morning. But I want to order you not to speculate as to the reason why it is that we're doing this and why we stopped the court proceeding. You are not to speculate the reason why any of the staff changes have been made. And I'll continue talking to you all on Monday, and I appreciate your patience. I apologize to you for the inconvenience. We have other activities going on today that I need to attend to. So I thought I needed to come back and at least tell you that I am considering these issues and hopefully we'll complete this on Monday.

THE JURY: Thank you.

THE COURT: Have a nice weekend.

THE JURY: Thank you.

(At 12:00 P.M., an adjournment was taken until, Monday, April 24, 1995, 9:00 A.M.)

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, APRIL 24, 1995 9:12 A.M.

department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(The following proceedings were held in camera:)

THE COURT: All right. Give me 353.

(Brief pause.)

(Juror no. 353 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: 353, why don't you have a seat. How are you today?

JUROR NO. 353: Pretty good, I guess.

THE COURT: On Friday I got actually two letters that involve you. First one, you are one of a group of a number of jurors who wanted to talk concerning some of the issues over at the hotel. Do you want to tell me about that?

JUROR NO. 353: Well, I guess I don't know what to say about that. Concerning the hotel?

THE COURT: Concerning the sheriff's deputies?

JUROR NO. 353: Well, I know a few of them, after Thursday, weren't around.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 353: And we didn't know why.

THE COURT: All right. Do you have any problems about any of that now?

JUROR NO. 353: No.

THE COURT: Okay. Anything else?

JUROR NO. 353: I would like to go home. You asked.

THE COURT: I asked.

JUROR NO. 353: And I tell you Wednesday I tossed and turned all night. I mean, I don't think--after our conversations here, I mean I don't think I slept more than a couple hours. I mean, I was really kind of--I didn't realize how it upset me, and I just--then I was thinking about what you said about having the stamina. I mean, I don't know if anybody has realized what I--I mean, my husband has been sick, he has had walking pneumonia and he collapsed on the job about four or five weeks ago. They took him to the hospital and then he didn't have the emergency number here, couldn't get ahold of him. And his doctor is telling him take one day at a time. Eventually has gotten better, but he just went back to work last week, still not feeling well, and it just seems like one thing after another. It is hard on me.

THE COURT: But he is back at work?

JUROR NO. 353: He is back to work. I saw him yesterday. He came by and he is still, you know, "My back still hurts and sore where they had to pull that fluid out," so I don't know if it is--you know how husbands get sometimes. I don't know if it is so much he misses me, misses my attention, or he just, you know, is starting to get ill again. I don't know. He is supposed to go into the doctor again on Thursday. Supposed to go Friday and the doctor canceled it. Said he had some seminar or something, but he is supposed to go back in, rescheduled for Thursday, and supposed to take another chest x-ray to see if the fluid is still clearing up. He has a pocket somewhere, infection on the side. I know, nice thing to talk about at 9:15 in the morning.

THE COURT: No, but if it is something that is distracting you, I mean, I think that is something that we need to know.

JUROR NO. 353: Absolutely.

THE COURT: But by the same token, he is under medical care, seems to be making progress. So is there anything else in particular, anything--I mean, that situation, your husband's health situation obviously is important to you.

JUROR NO. 353: Well, just, you know, just seems--it is stressful. I mean, you know, it is tough being--being away from home. I wake up sometimes. I can't get back to sleep. I'm alone in a hotel room. I have gotten sick off the food a few times and just, you know--and then coming in here, and you know, you asked.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 353: And I thought about it and I don't know if I could--you know, really, you know, there are times when I just don't know. I don't know if--you know, thinking into August, that means May and June and that means the summer, you know. That is a long time. I try. I try to keep it together one day at a time, but you know.

THE COURT: Okay. Well, you seem to be doing better today. All right. I will think about that, but I really want you to hang in there. Okay?

JUROR NO. 353: You really do? I mean--

THE COURT: I don't want to lose anybody. All right. Do you have anything else to say about that other situation with the sheriff's deputies? That is primarily why I called you in today.

JUROR NO. 353: Let's see. No. I just--if I did, it is not what is on my--I can't think of anything right now, no.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything?

JUROR NO. 353: Is there anything you want to ask me?

THE COURT: Yeah. Is there anything about any of that situation that might cause you to be an unfair juror or unable to participate as a fair and unbiased juror?

JUROR NO. 353: No.

THE COURT: Is there anything that would cause to you favor one side over the other, given that situation?

JUROR NO. 353: No.

THE COURT: Do you think there is anything that would cause you to have any difficulty in working with the other jurors?

JUROR NO. 353: No, no.

THE COURT: I don't recall how you were dressed on Friday. Did you come in as one of the black jurors?

JUROR NO. 353: Yes.

THE COURT: Or dressed-in-black jurors?

JUROR NO. 353: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about the--any relationships between the jurors that are making it difficult to get along, other than the ones that you told us about already?

JUROR NO. 353: No.

THE COURT: Anything new?

JUROR NO. 353: You know what, I take things--I don't--I don't, you know, I don't dwell on things a lot, you know. I try to--especially the relationships that are in here. I mean, you know, relationships that are important to me are my husband, my son, my mother, all of that. What happens in here I try to--you know, I try to--everything is relative, you know. I mean, one day you are up, and you know, you are getting along with people. It is volatile. I mean, just think of it yourself. Pack yourself in with eighteen strangers, rent a floor of a hotel room, you know, see each other 24 hours a day seven days a week, and you know, you are bound to have little skirmishes or little things that are going to upset you.

THE COURT: Is there anything about any of those situations that are going to actually distract you from being able to concentrate?

JUROR NO. 353: No, nothing about that, absolutely nothing.

THE COURT: How about other things, home situation, anything that is so distracting that you can't concentrate?

JUROR NO. 353: No, I'm not distracted by it. My attention--and that is not part of it. I just think I just get lonely. I mean, I'm just--

THE COURT: Do you recall Thursday night the--any discussions about the deputies and where they were going, why they weren't there?

JUROR NO. 353: Well, I know Thursday, let's see, we were going to wear the--somebody was saying that we were going to wear--…. … … had given everybody a T-shirt, and I guess maybe we were trying to eke out another meal, I don't know, but we will wear them, and then somebody was saying they weren't going to wear theirs and I felt silly.

THE COURT: Being the only one?

JUROR NO. 353: (Nods head up and down.)

THE COURT: Okay. All right. No. 353, I'm going to direct you not to discuss this matter with any of the other jurors, and we will be in touch.

JUROR NO. 353: Okay.

MR. COCHRAN: Judge, one question?

THE COURT: Yes. Hold on.

(Brief pause.)

JUROR NO. 353: Boy, you guys can't even talk to me?

THE COURT: No, I'm the one who asks the questions.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Thank you.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: How did you come to the conclusion that some of the deputies had been reassigned? Did anybody tell you that?

JUROR NO. 353: I had no idea they had been reassigned. All I know is that two--the deputies "I" and "B" didn't--I think it was--was that Wednesday afternoon? Was it Wednesday afternoon or Thursday afternoon, I'm not sure which now. We were down in the elevator ready to come back up, and I think I was the one that asked or somebody asked, "Where is "B" and "I"?" And then the deputy who was down there at the elevator told us, well, "They won't be back," something to that effect, or "They are not around any more" or "They won't be back," and they said--I believe he said it was "Deputy "I", "B" and "A" won't be back," something like that, to that effect.

THE COURT: Was anything else said to you about that?

JUROR NO. 353: That was it.

THE COURT: Did you observe any jurors in the TV room unusually upset about any of this?

JUROR NO. 353: I don't know if they were upset about this or--I don't know.

THE COURT: Anything about the reaction of the other jurors that would cause--

JUROR NO. 353: I guess they wanted--I mean, I work for the phone company. When somebody disappears in the middle of a shift, it is not a good thing usually. When you come to work in the morning and you are not there in the evening, you know, you kind of figure something happened to them, and--

THE COURT: Does that happen a lot at the phone company?

JUROR NO. 353: Every once in awhile, yeah.

THE COURT: Okay. Anything about that meeting in the TV room or anybody being very upset about this that would cause you any distraction in this case?

JUROR NO. 353: No.

THE COURT: Okay. Okay. 353, thanks a lot.

JUROR NO. 353: That is it?

THE COURT: That is it. You are free to go.

JUROR NO. 353: Wait a minute. Somebody has got another question.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: They always have another question.

JUROR NO. 353: I noticed.

THE COURT: Thank you.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

JUROR NO. 353: That is it?

THE COURT: That is it.

(Juror no. 353 exits chambers.)

THE COURT: All right. No. 98.

(Brief pause.)

(discussion held off the record.)

THE CLERK: Juror 98.

(Juror no. 98 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: Good morning, no. 98. How are you today?

JUROR NO. 98: Fine, thank you.

THE COURT: Are we better today?

JUROR NO. 98: Yes, much better, thank you.

THE COURT: Okay. We have adjusted?

JUROR NO. 98: Yes. Try.

THE COURT: Tell me about how you feel about all this.

JUROR NO. 98: Well, naturally I was a bit upset a little bit. I had a lot of personal reasons in it, because I guess because I was a little emotional because a couple of the deputies was with me when my sister passed, that was one, and the second was because it happened so--you know, being away from home, I guess, and getting adjusted to people and then the change, you know, try to hope not too many changes come here.

THE COURT: How are you feeling about it today?

JUROR NO. 98: I'm better. I realize things happen. You know, there is a lot of things you have no control over in life, and I just adjust to that.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about this situation that is going to distract you or cause you not to be able to concentrate on the case?

JUROR NO. 98: Oh, no. It is just that my thought was what did I do or did we do something, you know, because the deputies are people, too, and in my heart I never want to do anything that--my part that might have created a problem.

THE COURT: I take it that you are not happy that that happened, that you were happy to keep those sheriff's deputies there?

JUROR NO. 98: Yeah, I was sort of happy to keep them.

THE COURT: You had no problem with them personally?

JUROR NO. 98: Oh, no, no. As a matter of fact, like I said, they were there with me through a lot of crying times. They were just there, just--I was wondering what could they have done myself, but I guess it is not for me to be concerned about things that are beyond my scope.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. When you found out that those three deputies had been reassigned, how did you learn that information?

JUROR NO. 98: Well, you know, we are like kids. They are there everyday for--going on four months. They are with us. We were waiting for them to come down to take us home and they weren't there, so we asked, "Where are they?" I didn't know about the night deputy, but after we had gotten to--after we had gotten to the hotel, we asked and the sergeant came over and talked to us that approached him.

THE COURT: All right. I understand that there was a group in the TV room that night that were very upset about this. Did you see anything--

JUROR NO. 98: Well, we cried. We shedded some tears a little bit.

THE COURT: Is there anything--I mean, have you gotten over that? I mean, is that going to affect your ability to be fair in this case?

JUROR NO. 98: No, because I'm hoping that--see, I was under the impression that they were fired fired.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 98: But as long as I know they are not fired. I mean things--like I said, you all have your reason for what you do. I just pray they are not, you know, no longer deputies.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Okay. My recollection is that you were wearing black on Friday. Do you recall that?

JUROR NO. 98: Yes, very much so.

THE COURT: All right. You were one of the people who felt that was a good thing to do?

JUROR NO. 98: Well, let's--I was one of the people that was showing that we miss someone. It wasn't any offensive move. It is just that we miss you. It is like something was taken. You know, it wasn't--

THE COURT: You might be amused to hear that the news media is reporting that the jury is on strike.

JUROR NO. 98: Oh.

THE COURT: So you see how that got sort of blown out of proportion.

JUROR NO. 98: Very much so, but that wasn't--that was not me. We were just showing the deputies that we miss them. That was it in a nutshell.

THE COURT: All right. Are you ready to get started again as soon as we finish talking all of the people?

JUROR NO. 98: I am good to go.

THE COURT: Okay.

JUROR NO. 98: I'm okay.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden?

MR. DARDEN: No questions, your Honor.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Do you think that given your--I would have to term it as being affection for these sheriff's deputies, because of your particular situation, do you think that that would cause you to favor one side or the other here?

JUROR NO. 98: Oh, no. This has nothing to do with this case, none whatsoever.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 98: This is just--see, I live--our living arrangements is totally different from what we do here. You know, this is--that is like home over there. That is--we are like family, you know. And it has nothing to do with what I have to do here. I'm on a level where I can separate what I have to do, just like I understand that things happen. I just didn't know why it happened. You know, sometimes things happen and it happens so quickly, say what did I do or what did we do, you know. So that was my concern. It wasn't about--this has nothing to do with anything else. It was just after you be with a person so long and the first time I was away from home, but I can adjust. We have more deputies. We have to just regroup. That is all I'm doing.

THE COURT: Okay. Was there anything discussed about this issue over the weekend over at the hotel amongst any of the jurors?

JUROR NO. 98: No. Once we wore our black--

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 98: --and showed that we missed them, that was the end of it. Please believe me, when we come and talk, me myself, we are on a level where we know where to stop, as far as I'm concerned.

THE COURT: You mentioned that the jurors are sort of a family over there at the hotel.

JUROR NO. 98: Okay.

THE COURT: Is there anything about this particular incident that will cause some members of the family not to be as welcome?

JUROR NO. 98: No.

THE COURT: You don't see any problems like that?

JUROR NO. 98: No, because I must say this: You know, people are people. Today we may eat together. Tomorrow we may play together. People are going to do whatever they feel like. You can't really say what a person feel like doing everyday, but we are all right.

THE COURT: Okay. No. 98, I'm going to direct you not to discuss this with anybody else and we will get started again as soon as I finish talking to all the people I need to.

JUROR NO. 98: Okay.

THE COURT: Thanks a lot.

JUROR NO. 98: All right. Have a nice day.

(Juror no. 98 exits chambers.)

THE COURT: All right. 19.

(Brief pause.)

THE CLERK: Juror 19.

(Juror no. 19 enters chambers.)

JUROR NO. 19: Good morning.

THE COURT: Good morning. How are you. Come on in. Sit down. How are you today?

JUROR NO. 19: Not too bad.

THE COURT: Good, good. Last week I asked the sheriff's department to reassign three of the deputies who were involved in the case and there was some concern on the jury's part about that. I take it you share some of that concern?

JUROR NO. 19: Yes, sir, I did.

THE COURT: Tell me about that.

JUROR NO. 19: Umm, I didn't think they did anything wrong. To me they were just fine. I never had problems with them. They were courteous, helpful. I had never had a problem with either one of those three. As a matter of fact, any of the deputies I have never had a problem with. And it is just--I don't see why--I though somebody must have complained and that is pretty much the consensus, that is what I figured, but I just hate to see somebody leave and maybe mess up like their record or something that they were removed from something like this.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. When you say you figured that or the consensus is that somebody must have complained, is there going to be any problem working with people, either--that you might feel have caused this to happen?

JUROR NO. 19: Well, pretty much I can ignore them, but there is--I can--the hostility Thursday and Friday were pretty deep, I could feel it big time. So most of the time I am in the workout room, like I said. But they were throwing it back in some of the people's faces that--not literally to their face, but saying stuff around so they can hear it.

THE COURT: Like what?

JUROR NO. 19: Umm, okay. Like the way I found out was I have like a Sony CD player stereo type little speaker things and I put that in the workout room because I'm in there most of the time, so I just leave it in there. So I took it in there Thursday and when--I usually don't go to dinner. I stay working out about that time. And on the way back from there I usually go--go hop on the phone. Well, I talked to my--call and talk to my boy and stuff. But when I was going that way, in the first TV room I saw one of the girls crying and so, you know, my first thought was, hey, somebody--somebody died, because she was balling pretty good. And so when I went up and asked--you know, to see what is up, somebody else mentioned that three of the deputies were dismissed. So that kind of like it bothered me, and when things bother me, I'm better off--I'm the type of person that is just better off by myself, so like as I was leaving--and I got to apologize for that, I sort of like mentioned--I go, hey--they were supposed to wear T-shirts on Friday, …. … T-shirts, and as I was walking out, "I'm going to wear black, I'm in mourning" and when I came out--that was basically it that evening, well, except for one comment, but when I went back in the morning when I came out and most of the people were in black, it was like, bam, I should have kept my mouth shut. But as I was coming back from calling my son and calling my girlfriend up, one juror--they have this little corner where they have set up where they have like the snacks, potato chips, refrigerator and stuff like that, and when Juror no. 1489 saw me coming and he knew I was coming because our eyes met when he turned around. He was like singing to himself like today is--today is just a beautiful day, but singing like a little tune. And when I passed him, I turned around and glanced back at him, he looked to see if I was--if I had heard him and he knew I did, and that was it for that day. The next day--

THE COURT: Which juror was that?

JUROR NO. 19: Shoot, I don't know. Juror no. 1489. I don't know the number. The big guy.

THE COURT: The guy that sits behind you?

JUROR NO. 19: Yeah.

THE COURT: The next day in the--Juror no. 165, the older gentleman, I still don't know his number, in that first TV room a lot of people waiting there in the morning like if you are early, like, ten, fifteen minutes early before we come and hop in the vans to leave, we sit there, and Juror no. 165 never comes in--he doesn't come in there, but he made a point to go in there that day and tell everybody good morning and he had a little smirk on his face. And I didn't think nothing about it at the time because I was thinking, well, maybe he is just trying to be courteous now that he knows there is some tension. Kind of proved that wrong, though, because after we got done Friday here--

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 19: --as we were leaving in the elevator to go down to lunch, him and Juror no. 1489 were--you know, I can hear them talking and saying it loud enough so people could hear, that today is a great today, today is a real good day, everybody should be smiling today. And again Juror no. 1489 in the elevator there is a--you know, I'm not one to really watch a whole lot of stuff, but it just caught my eye when he did. Juror no. 1489 actually pushed one of the other jurors, bumped her physically. There is a little spot to fit between the deputy and against the elevator door. And when you--when you actually push somebody and make, you know, there I go again, I'm sorry.

THE COURT: All right. The record should reflect that the juror bumped against my filing cabinet causing many things to fall off the top of it that are precariously--

JUROR NO. 19: Sorry.

THE COURT: That is all right.

JUROR NO. 19: And when you do stuff like that, it just, you know, makes--it just makes you wonder sometimes.

THE COURT: Which juror got bumped?

JUROR NO. 19: Juror no. 1427. I know her number is 14 something, but the--one of the tall girls. Her name is Juror no. 1427.

THE CLERK: 1427.

THE COURT: Okay.

JUROR NO. 19: That's the number. And just little things like that, that I hear them say or do, or even when Deirdra walked in and asked yesterday, Friday, is there anybody who wants to speak to the Judge, I mean, right away Juror no. 1489 was the first one, oh--oh, no, everything is fine, everything is wonderful. It is like a few of us had to speak up and say, "Hey, we would like to talk to him," and that is basically what I have seen.

THE COURT: All right. Is there anything about that discussion in the TV room with people crying that is going to upset--that has upset you enough that you are going to have a hard time being a fair juror in this case?

JUROR NO. 19: No, because I'm not one to get--I was mad--I was angry at the time.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 19: Because I liked these guys that were there, but I mean, I have been dealing with it, I can deal with it still.

THE COURT: Can you separate what goes on about how the jury is handled versus the evidence that is presented here in court? Can you make--keep those things separate?

JUROR NO. 19: Oh, yeah, those things are separate. There is no problem with that.

THE COURT: All right. Do you think you will have any difficulty working with any of the other jurors on the case?

JUROR NO. 19: No. I have only had one problem really with one juror and he is gone, so nobody was as bad as him.

THE COURT: 602?

JUROR NO. 19: He was a pain.

THE COURT: Yeah, okay. Anything about your relationship with the sheriffs that you are unhappy to see reassigned? Is there anything about that that would cause you to favor one side over the other?

JUROR NO. 19: No, actually--actually I had mentioned to a couple, if you feel some hostility, it is not because of you guys coming in, but they are actually all pretty good guys. You know, I never had a problem, even with the new ones or the old ones. As a matter of fact, I even actually get along a little bit better with some of the newer ones. I just get along with them a little bit better.

(Brief pause.)

JUROR NO. 19: That is a better way to do it; no more side bars.

THE COURT: How did you find out the deputies had been reassigned?

JUROR NO. 19: Okay. When I walked into the room when that one girl was crying--

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 19: --I asked what was wrong and she really couldn't say, so somebody else had said that they had mentioned that--the deputies names and said they are not going to be here with us no more.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Did they say anything else besides they are not going to be with us any more?

JUROR NO. 19: No, actually that was it, because at that point I knew what happened. Basically I figured somebody complained.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 19: And I basically--I know more or less who did.

THE COURT: Are you going to have any problem working with the people who complained about those things?

JUROR NO. 19: No, because I never really hung with them anyway a whole lot. Like I say, I'm always in the workout room, so the only time I really ever see them is maybe on the weekend when I catch a movie in the morning or something, and that is really the only time.

THE COURT: This incident Friday with the elevator incident, how did she react to being bumped like that?

JUROR NO. 19: Well, I mean, she looked at him, but he didn't look back at her and she just went back and put her head back down. I mean, I saw that one happen, and then like during--like--like during lunchtime and stuff like that--like on Friday and also on Saturday, when we came down here for the stuff that was happening here, he would be eyeballing her, and the only reason why I caught that is because I saw what he did to her in the elevator, so I just kept watching him and that is just what I happened to see.

THE COURT: But this happened Friday?

JUROR NO. 19: This was Friday.

THE COURT: Okay.

JUROR NO. 19: Some of this was Friday, but some of it was Saturday, when we came here for--for the Raspyni Brothers.

THE COURT: For what?

JUROR NO. 19: Raspyni.

THE COURT: How was that?

JUROR NO. 19: Actually they were pretty good. Actually they were real good.

THE COURT: You indicated you felt you were pretty sure who complained about that. Who do you feel who complained about it?

JUROR NO. 19: In my head I had Juror no. 1489 and--what is her name--I thought--I'm pretty sure Juror no. 1489 did and I was thinking maybe Juror no. 453 and Juror no. 165 did.

THE COURT: Uh-huh. Is there anything about--do you feel that they--are you willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they may be justified in some of the complaints that they made?

JUROR NO. 19: What do you mean justified in their complaint?

THE COURT: That some of their personal relationships with those deputies were such that maybe they were justified in making their complaints? Do you have any problem giving them the benefit of the doubt in that assumption?

JUROR NO. 19: If you tell me to, I will, but I don't know. I just can't say.

THE COURT: What I'm going to tell you to is that you can't speculate as to why I asked those deputies to be reassigned.

JUROR NO. 19: Okay.

THE COURT: And you can't speculate--and that should have no impact upon your view of the evidence in this case?

JUROR NO. 19: Oh, no, that is two separate things right there. What is going on in the case is separate from what is happening over there.

THE COURT: All right. No. 19, anything else you want to tell me about any of these things?

JUROR NO. 19: I probably will think of something when I walk out that door, but right now I'm drawing a blank.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. I'm going to direct you not to discuss this matter with anybody else. All right?

JUROR NO. 19: Okay.

THE COURT: Thanks a lot.

JUROR NO. 19: Thank you for your time.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

(Juror no. 19 exits chambers.)

MR. COCHRAN: Judge, that one question you didn't follow up, you obviously have a reason to, he says, "If you tell me to, I will," but you heard that?

THE COURT: I heard.

MR. COCHRAN: You didn't want to ask him about that?

THE COURT: I heard.

MS. CLARK: Have you talked to 1427 yet?

THE COURT: Yeah, we already did.

MS. CLARK: I can't remember.

MR. COCHRAN: You can't have any concern about his response. I guess the question was whether or not he could--

THE COURT: No.

THE CLERK: Juror 2179.

(Juror no. 2179 enters chambers.)

THE COURT: Hi. How are you today?

JUROR NO. 2179: Okay.

THE COURT: How are you today?

JUROR NO. 2179: Oh, pretty good.

THE COURT: Better?

JUROR NO. 2179: Well, no, not really.

THE COURT: Well, tell me.

JUROR NO. 2179: Well, my husband wants me out of here and I'm afraid that his job--he has been off a whole lot since I've been in here and I'm afraid that he is going to lose his job. He is talking about he is stressed out and he is--he said he is going to try to talk to his captain to see if he could get some kind of leave to be off work, and he said, you know--

THE COURT: Refresh my recollection. I don't have your questionnaire in front of me.

JUROR NO. 2179: He is a security officer--he worked for the ... … ... … …

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

JUROR NO. 2179: And he has been taking off ever since I have been in here, and then at one point--

THE COURT: Taking off to do what?

JUROR NO. 2179: He has just been calling off, you know. Said he just hasn't felt up to going to work, you know, and that is not like him. He is always at work, you know, and then they had like threatened him once before, I was telling Sergeant "J", that they told him they were short of people one Saturday and they told him that if he didn't come, stay that whole night Saturday, that it might jeopardize his future visits on Saturday nights. That is like what, you know, so they kind of got that hanging over his head, you know, saying that, you know, it is like they letting him off to do this and he might get--you know, they might take it from him if he don't, so he got that over his head and he just, you know, getting kind of worried. I said we can't live off of just my check, you know. We need both our jobs, you know.

THE COURT: How long has this been going on with your husband?

JUROR NO. 2179: He has been pretty good, but just recently within the last few weeks, he is just--you know, then last night he was like, "You need to take off" because he just can't take it any more.

THE COURT: What is it about the pressures of your not being there? What kind of pressures are on him now that you are not there?

JUROR NO. 2179: He just said he just can't function, you know, because we only been married for like seven months. Four of the months, three months been in here, you know. We was only married four months before I came in here, you know, but he would like to say--you know, he said he hoped that I could stay until the end, but I said, "You just getting frustrated," I guess, I don't know, so I said, "Oh, no," so I said I will talk to the sergeant and see if they could talk and see if they could let you off or something or give you time off. And I told him I come this far and I hate to, you know, not to finish it. Since I had been here so long, you know, I want to see this thing through to the end, you know. That is one thing that was--that was the main thing that took over. And the other stuff that was happening, I was like--

THE COURT: Tell me about how you feel--we will get back to this personal problem. Well, let's finish that discussion, actually. Is there anything you think that I could do to help you out with this situation?

JUROR NO. 2179: I don't know. Maybe if he just get that time off, maybe he will relax and don't have to worry about going to work for awhile. I don't know.

THE COURT: How long has he been working down there?

JUROR NO. 2179: He has been down there going on two or three years now and he get--he gets his vacation time once a year, and that is in August, so he has had to work from August to August before he get his vacation time and stuff like that.

THE COURT:</