LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, APRIL 19, 1995 9:25 A.M.
Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge
APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)
(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)
(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)
(The following proceedings were held in camera:)
THE CLERK: Juror 984.
(Juror no. 984 enters chambers.)
THE COURT: 984, come on in. Sit down.
JUROR NO. 984: How are you? How is everyone?
THE COURT: I'm doing just fine. How are you?
JUROR NO. 984: I'm doing fine.
THE COURT: I have to share with you the other day, you know, the jurors are taken out by the sheriff's staff on occasion to take care of personal business with the Court's permission, and as I was driving down the street one afternoon minding my own business, I see Juror 984 walking across the street and I did one of those double-takes. I recognized her, knew who she was, but could not place her in context of why I knew her because it just made no sense to see her just walking across the street.
JUROR NO. 984: I was out, busy.
THE COURT: Out doing her banking, as I recall?
JUROR NO. 984: Yeah.
THE COURT: Good morning, 984.
JUROR NO. 984: Good morning.
THE COURT: You are--actually we will refer to you this morning as Juror no. 5, since that is the seat that you are in. As I explained to you the day before yesterday, some things have been brought to my attention, some concerns have been raised regarding certain things that are going on within the jury and concerning the jury, and the law in the state of California requires that anytime something is brought to my attention I have to conduct an immediate investigation into the concerns that are raised, and that is what I'm doing. And I want you to understand that I'm required to do this. I don't necessarily believe that any of this is true, but I need to find out if it is, and so that is why we are asking each one of you to come in one at a time to talk to me. And I want you to understand that there is no obligation of any misconduct on your part.
JUROR NO. 984: Okay.
THE COURT: There are four areas that I need to talk to you about. First of all, are you aware of any conflict between the jurors individually, and when I say "conflict," I mean more than just what is the next video we are going to watch or that sort of thing, but anything that is a serious conflict that you are aware of?
JUROR NO. 984: Not that I know of. Not that I know of, yeah.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any incidents that involve either kicking or hitting or tripping another juror?
JUROR NO. 984: No.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any incidents in the video room, any of the TV rooms?
JUROR NO. 984: Other than just we have one juror that he tries--I don't know what you call it--he--I talk, you know, and sometimes I talk a little loud, and he has to try--he wants control--not--I'm not saying control of the video room itself, but more like, you know, can you keep it down, and you know, just--I don't know. It irritates me because I like to talk, and so I just--you know I don't go--I just don't go in there any more, but other than that, that is just my own personal feeling. He just, umm--kind of hard to explain. You have to be there. He, umm--just, you know, just tries to--just tries to control it, I guess, you know. That is the only problem I have with it, you know. So I'm no big--a lot of the movies that they watch I'm no big fan of anyway, so I just don't go in when I'm talking. He made a comment to me one day, you know, "Would you give me a break," you know, like that, and to avoid anything, you know, I just left. You know, I just went on out.
THE COURT: Which juror is this? Do you know his number?
JUROR NO. 984: I know his name.
THE COURT: What is his name?
JUROR NO. 984: Juror no. 1489. I think it is 247.
THE COURT: Does Juror no. 1489 sit--where does Juror no. 1489 sit in the box?
JUROR NO. 984: Umm, I'm sitting here. He is behind me.
THE COURT: Behind you and to your right?
JUROR NO. 984: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. He is--
JUROR NO. 984: He is behind me. That is the only thing about that. And then there is few of us, we talk and we just kind of took ourselves, since they opened up the video room, we kind of took ourselves and went there, you know, because we laugh through the movies and talk.
THE COURT: You talk back to the movies?
JUROR NO. 984: Yeah. You know, yeah.
THE COURT: I hate people like you.
JUROR NO. 984: Well, hey, he does, too, so I just moved. I just moved my person.
THE COURT: All right. Are you aware of any--any physical conflicts within the jury box itself? Anybody stepping on anybody in the jury box or anything like that or kicking?
JUROR NO. 984: Hell, I've been stepped on. I mean--I don't think it was purposely, though. I mean my foot. I mean, but as far as like intentional? No.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 984: Un-unh.
THE COURT: Have you observed or become aware of anything that you would characterize as being unprofessional conduct by any of the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 984: No.
THE COURT: How do you think you have been treated by the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 984: I've been treated excellent. I really have. I have gotten more than I thought I would get as far as--when they were saying we were going to be sequestered, I thought I was going to be totally cut off from everything, and I was really surprised.
THE COURT: They have tried to accommodate your personal needs?
JUROR NO. 984: Yes, yes.
THE COURT: You use the phone room quite regularly; is that correct?
JUROR NO. 984: Mostly on Sundays. I go once in the evening to call my mom and that is it and then I call my husband on Sundays. My husband on Sundays, but that is about it.
THE COURT: Is there something you need to tell me about?
JUROR NO. 984: No, no, no. We ain't going there. No, I call--that is about it. Yeah, you know, once in the evening and then on Sundays.
THE COURT: Has there ever been an occasion where the deputies have not monitored your call or made the call for you or filled out the log appropriately?
JUROR NO. 984: No.
THE COURT: Has there ever been an occasion where they have been playing cards and just said, "Oh, go ahead and make your call"?
JUROR NO. 984: No.
THE COURT: Without dialing the phone?
JUROR NO. 984: No.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR NO. 984: Not--in jest I tell them "I will to it." "That is all right," you know, like that, but they have always done it for me.
THE COURT: Okay. During the family visitations has there ever been an occasion where you feel that they were not adequately monitoring what was going on?
JUROR NO. 984: No.
THE COURT: Have you observed anything or has anything been brought to your attention that--anything that the sheriff's deputies have done to promote any racial animosity between jurors?
JUROR NO. 984: No, sir.
THE COURT: Has it come to your attention or has it appeared to you that your room has been searched without your permission?
JUROR NO. 984: No.
THE COURT: All right. Have you noticed anything or has anything come to your attention that would cause you to believe that some groups of jurors are being treated differently by the sheriffs than other groups?
JUROR NO. 984: No. We all--
THE COURT: Have you had any problems regarding who gets to shop and when and how long?
JUROR NO. 984: No.
THE COURT: All right. Has there been any problem regarding use of the gym facilities?
JUROR NO. 984: No, not--
THE COURT: Do you use the gym facilities?
JUROR NO. 984: Yes, I do, but I'm in there at 5:00 in the morning. I go at 5:00 in the morning and then I have just started maybe going in the evening, but I haven't heard of any problems with the gym.
THE COURT: Okay. Is there any problem with the availability of the machines?
JUROR NO. 984: No, but I'm the only one in there--myself and--three of us that go in the morning, at 5:00 in the morning, so we--you know, no. We don't have any problems.
THE COURT: Okay. How is the equipment working out?
JUROR NO. 984: Excellent. I want to thank you or thank whoever did it, yeah.
THE COURT: The companies who made--the manufacturers have donated that equipment to us.
JUROR NO. 984: Great. That works out really well for me because I like going in the morning.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 984: I'm an early one.
THE COURT: It was a problem because originally when I selected that hotel--
JUROR NO. 984: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: --they told me they had a gym available, and I went and looked at it, but the problem is the guests have access to it.
JUROR NO. 984: They didn't go until 10:00 at night and that is past my bed time.
THE COURT: So this works out much better for you?
JUROR NO. 984: Great.
THE COURT: Has there been any individual jurors or groups of jurors who received preferential treatment far as access to the phones?
JUROR NO. 984: No, not that I know of.
THE COURT: Okay. Has there been any problems that you are aware of regarding the videotapes, the scheduling and the availability of those?
JUROR NO. 984: No. I think that is--they just started--like they put up a schedule and everything and that was the best thing they could have done for that.
THE COURT: That has taken care of that?
JUROR NO. 984: Uh-huh, yeah. That is--
THE COURT: Has anything come to your attention or have you observed anything that would lead you to believe that any of the jurors have discussed the facts and circumstances surrounding the case itself?
JUROR NO. 984: I haven't seen or heard anything.
THE COURT: Anything like that that would cause you to believe that anybody has already formed opinions about the case?
JUROR NO. 984: No.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any--anything that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors have received information regarding the case from outside of the courtroom?
JUROR NO. 984: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR NO. 984: No. You know, not that I know of, yeah.
THE COURT: All right. You would bring that to my attention if you were aware of that?
JUROR NO. 984: Yes, yes.
THE COURT: Juror no. 5, is there anything else you feel that you need to tell me about, anything that is going on within the jury?
JUROR NO. 984: No.
THE COURT: All right. How is everything going?
JUROR NO. 984: Everything is going fine. It really is.
THE COURT: All right. If you notice--
JUROR NO. 984: With me.
THE COURT: --we seem to be going--is there anything else that I should know about?
JUROR NO. 984: Hell, no. I mean, I don't know if other people have problems, but I don't have any at all.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 984: Yeah.
THE COURT: As you notice, things seem to be going a little slower than we had anticipated.
JUROR NO. 984: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: And we may be looking at July or August. I know you are not happy about that.
JUROR NO. 984: I heard December.
THE COURT: No.
JUROR NO. 984: Talking about Christmas trees.
THE COURT: Nobody--I am not buying Christmas decorations, I guarantee you that. Can you live with us that long?
JUROR NO. 984: Yes. I've been here for three months. I've paid off three bills. I'm saving money, you know. If I didn't have a house note, I would be all right--
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 984: --you know, by August.
THE COURT: Is there anything else I can do for you? I mean, we've tried to get you some interesting entertainment, tried to keep you stocked with videos, tried to take you on outings and shopping and all. Anything else that you want to add to the agenda?
JUROR NO. 984: I haven't come up with anything yet.
THE COURT: All right. If you think of something, let me know.
JUROR NO. 984: Will do.
THE COURT: If you need access to any more books or anything you need, let us know.
JUROR NO. 984: Okay.
THE COURT: Also, I want you to understand that I am always very concerned about anything that goes on with regards to your comfort and your well-being.
JUROR NO. 984: Okay.
THE COURT: You should feel very comfortable, if you ever need to talk to me, all you need to do is hand a note to the bailiff and all it needs to say is "I need to talk to you."
JUROR NO. 984: Yes. Okay.
THE COURT: The door is always open, although you have to understand that I've got 53 other things going on everyday in the courtroom. That--but I will get to you within a day of receiving a note like that from you.
JUROR NO. 984: I appreciate that.
THE COURT: If it is an emergency, though, let me know that it is an emergency.
JUROR NO. 984: No. Both my emergencies were handled very well.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 984: I was very satisfied.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Cochran?
JUROR NO. 984: July or August, hum?
THE COURT: (Nods head up and down.)
JUROR NO. 984: I can deal with it.
THE COURT: Hold on. Don't go away. We even have side bars here in chambers.
(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)
(Discussion held off the record between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)
THE COURT: Juror no. 5, the problem with regard to the videos, that has pretty much been resolved by the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 984: Yes.
THE COURT: The jurors get to request videos and then the sheriff's set up the schedule?
JUROR NO. 984: Uh-huh, yes.
THE COURT: That has resolved the problems?
JUROR NO. 984: As far as I'm concerned. You know, like I say, when they have a movie in the other video room, if I prefer it, I will go in there and sit and watch the movie, but you know, when we are up front, we basically--they are watching sitcoms, so that is, you know, more my style, not unless they got an old movie, a black and white, but that schedule worked out really well. That was a good idea.
THE COURT: Okay. Sorry to have to do that.
JUROR NO. 984: No, no. You know, sometimes you have to take charge, so you know, it wasn't working out one way, so you have to try it another way.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 984: It works out fine.
THE COURT: All right. Juror no. 5, thanks a lot for talking to us. I'm going to order you not to discuss what we have just discussed here in chambers with any of the other jurors. Hopefully I will finish talking to you all today, but it may dribble over into tomorrow.
JUROR NO. 984: Okay.
THE COURT: But don't talk about it.
JUROR NO. 984: Okay. Thank you.
(Juror no. 984 exits chambers.)
THE CLERK: Juror 795.
(Juror no. 795 enters chambers.)
THE COURT: 795, have a seat there, please.
JUROR NO. 795: Please excuse me. I just woke up.
THE COURT: I hear some of these jurors get up at 5:00 in the morning and exercise.
JUROR NO. 795: I am in the late group to twelve o'clock at night.
THE COURT: Good morning. How are you today?
JUROR NO. 795: Fine, thank you.
THE COURT: Good. Juror no. 7, the reason we've called you in, I mentioned the day before yesterday that some issues have been brought to my attention that I need to look into, and the law in California requires that anytime an issue regarding jury conduct or anything regarding the jury is brought to my attention that I have to immediately conduct an investigation into those problems and that is what I'm doing here. I want you to understand that I don't necessarily believe that these allegations are true, but I need to look into them. And you should also know that I'm not--there is no indication that you have personally involved yourself in anything that would be considered misconduct, so you should understand that before we begin.
JUROR NO. 795: Okay.
THE COURT: Okay?
JUROR NO. 795: Fine.
THE COURT: All right. Juror no. 7, has anything come to your attention that would cause you to believe that there is a conflict between any of the juror members? And when I say "conflict," I mean more than just, you know, who gets in first in the dinner line and which videos get watched, but anything that is a serious conflict between any of the jurors?
JUROR NO. 795: Well, I can't see anything major, just a lot of times a lot of petty stuff comes up, but I try and stay away from that kind of stuff because it is hard enough being here and then to get involved in like TV watching or just, you know, regular little bitty stuff.
THE COURT: Give me an example.
JUROR NO. 795: Someone may make a comment to someone and say, umm, oh, let's see, I mean really kiddie stuff, like one of the jurors overheard someone say--call her the fat one or something like that, you know. To me that is petty, you know. And me personally, I don't get involved in other people's doings, you know. I just try and stay to myself and go work out. You know, I hear little things, but I wouldn't consider major, but someone else may take it differently. And if someone tells me something, I tell them to work it out with that person because I don't want to get personally involved. If it is something pertaining to me directly, I will go to that person and talk to them.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 795: And I will say--you know, I will let them know if it is something I didn't like. Say, for instance, if you say something to me that I don't like, I will go to you personally without a group of people around and then I will say, well, why did you say what you said or I don't like that phrase of the tone you--the gesture, whatever the problem may be that you are giving to me, and we will work it out and I don't have a problem like that. But I just don't like to get a bunch of people in a group where I think it is easier to solve the problem if you have a one-on-one basis instead of involving everyone, so that is what I tend to do, so if I see something happening, I just let everybody work out their own problems because I don't want to get involved in all that.
THE COURT: All right. Has anybody--when you have said that if somebody come to you with a problem you tell them, well, you need to deal directly with the other person involved--
JUROR NO. 795: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: --are you aware in that manner of any conflict that you would characterize as being serious?
JUROR NO. 795: No, I wouldn't call it serious. Just a people thing. You know, people get together and everybody have their own personalities and different way of thinking, living, you know, it is a whole lot of different things that can happen just in everyday life. And I think that is the problem, you know. You have a bunch of people together and they are all, you know--just it is like you put kids together. Some play together, some don't, so it is the same as adults, you know. You know, I wouldn't call it serious.
THE COURT: Okay. Has--have you become aware of any physical contact between any of the jurors, any kicking or hitting, bumping into?
JUROR NO. 795: No, I haven't seen that.
JUROR NO. 795: We all be in the elevator together, I mean, you are going to bump into each other so you can't be so picky--we have a lot--but a few picky people, they don't even want you to talk hardly or even just, you know, you bump into them, you know, but it is not everybody, it is just one or two--you know, I won't say as a whole, just you have a few. But I still don't think that is a problem. You just deal with that person. That is what I told people. If they come to me talking about someone else, I say, well, just to go that person and tell them. It may not be as serious as they may think it is, but you have to learn how to communicate with people.
THE COURT: All right. Has anything come to your attention or have you observed anything that would cause you--that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct by any of the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 795: Oh, no, I think they are very professional and very kind. I haven't had a problem myself.
THE COURT: Are you aware--
JUROR NO. 795: I haven't seen anything myself.
THE COURT: Are you aware of anybody else who might be having problems with the sheriffs?
JUROR NO. 795: Well, you know, I hear people talk about phone time or basically that is all I've heard, you know, phone, or I've heard them say, well, they are giving someone else favoritism, but I don't see that myself.
THE COURT: Tell me about that. What have you heard?
JUROR NO. 795: I think that is a personal thing. You know, some people complain about anything, if the wind is blowing too hard. I think that is one--a situation like that, but I can't see a problem myself at all with any of that.
THE COURT: Now, you are a pretty regular phone room user, correct?
JUROR NO. 795: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Have you ever had the occasion where the deputies--deputy assigned to monitor the phone room has stepped out or allowed you to make unmonitored phone calls?
JUROR NO. 795: No, not to my knowledge.
THE COURT: Has there ever been an incident where the deputies were playing cards and just said, "Well, just go ahead and make your phone call" and didn't use the log?
JUROR NO. 795: No.
THE COURT: Okay. During the family visitations has there ever been a situation where you feel that the sheriff's deputies weren't monitoring--adequately monitoring what was going on?
JUROR NO. 795: No. I think--they do their job. You know, I have no complaints. As a matter of fact, I think a lot of them, they go overboard. You know, I mean they try to help us in every way possible. This is my concept. This is the way I feel, you know, and I haven't had any problems myself. Okay. If I have a problem or something, I go to them, tell them what I need, or if I need any help in any way, they are always there to help, so I have no complaints. I think they are doing a great job.
THE COURT: Do you think they listen to your concerns and respond in a prompt manner?
JUROR NO. 795: Yes, they do.
THE COURT: Give me an example of some of the things you have asked them about.
JUROR NO. 795: Well, I had to go to the dentist and I told them about that, and I got great response. I had to call my dentist up. I got great response with that. And other people that I've noticed, you know, got sick around the hotel, you know, they have taken care of them, so I have no complaints about them myself personally.
THE COURT: Okay. Have you seen any conduct by the deputies that would cause you to believe that they were promoting racial conflicts among the jurors?
JUROR NO. 795: No. I can't see that.
THE COURT: All right. Have you experienced anything that would cause you to believe that somebody has searched your room?
JUROR NO. 795: No.
THE COURT: Have you observed anything that would cause you to believe that the sheriff's deputies are treating some--some of the jurors or groups of jurors differently than the other jurors?
JUROR NO. 795: No, I can't see it, but I think some people, just the way they think in their mind, you know, if you--you know, I've heard little comments, you know, by people when I first got in there, but I just blocked it out because I didn't want to be mixing and mingling with people that--well, you know, it is weird because I don't think like--I deal with people on an everyday basis, you know, and it is like I just go by their personality. Yeah, some people, you know, they don't even know you, they may look at you and just pass judgment. You have to get to know people. And I think this is the case. People just say anything and maybe they mean it; maybe they don't, but you know, I think it is wrong to say things like that if you really don't know a person. But I can't see that happening because I get along with everyone, the deputies and all the jurors. You know, I have no problems.
THE COURT: All right. Has there been any--anything that has come to your attention, for example, when you go out on your shopping outings, anybody get any different treatment in those outings?
JUROR NO. 795: No. We all get the same treatment.
THE COURT: Anything about the use of the gym facilities?
JUROR NO. 795: No. The only thing change is I was going down with a group of people going to the steam room, but they said at the very beginning things would be changed, you know, it may change, and that was really part of the hotel allowing us to use that. And now that we have the gym equipment, it is no problem, you know, but we all were doing the same thing, so I can't see where that was any problem there, you know, just say, well, you can't do it, you just can't do it, but--
THE COURT: Can't do it?
JUROR NO. 795: It is not like say, you know, you can't do it, but you go ahead and do it. You know, it is just a matter of choice. Whoever want to go, go. If you don't want to go, you just stay in your room or watch TV or whatever you want to do.
THE COURT: All right. Has anything come to your attention that some jurors get preferential phone use?
JUROR NO. 795: Well, more jurors--some jurors call more than others. I wouldn't say it is preferential phone use. Like myself, I don't use the phone everyday because I'm not a phone person. I don't call everyday. I just call when I feel there is a need to call. Some just use the phones more, but I wouldn't say it is preferential. The deputies still do the same thing. They allow them to use the phone. Now, of course if you have a line of people waiting to use the phone, well, common sense should tell a person don't take up all the phone time, you know, trying to hold everyone else up.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 795: But most of the time when I'm using the phone, the deputy will tell a person, you know, say, "Well, your time is up, you have to get off the phone," but most people like myself, we don't stay on the phone over fifteen minutes. If I have to stay longer, I will just put my name back on the list and call then and that way you keep down a lot problems. Of some people may go overboard, you know, and twenty minutes, but what is twenty minutes? You know, you may have to deal with another problem. You know, I don't know.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 795: And I don't think that is a problem.
THE COURT: All right. Anything about the use of the TV rooms, any different treatment amongst groups of jurors?
JUROR NO. 795: Well, actually I really don't know. I spend my time working out a lot. I don't watch too much television until maybe the weekends. I know in the past there was a problem. When we got first there, before we got the equipment, you know, the exercise, because we didn't have a choice, but watching television, yeah, some people maybe want to watch certain things, but I didn't really look at that as being a problem because everyone have different interests, you know. So what I would do, if something I didn't want to watch, I would just leave the room because we have more than enough time to eventually get around to watch the movie you want to watch, so that is what I would do. But then--like I say, you have people in all aspects of life here and everyone have different personalities so you have to learn to--you have to learn how to deal with people on those basis, but some people can and some can't.
THE COURT: How is the schedule system working out?
JUROR NO. 795: What do you mean?
THE COURT: The video schedule? How is that working out?
JUROR NO. 795: Oh, great. They have a calendar now so it is listed on the calendar, so no one can say, well, I want to watch this or that or whatever. I think it is better that way.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Has anything come to your attention that might cause you to believe that any of the jurors are discussing the facts and circumstances of the case, discussing the witnesses or anything like that?
JUROR NO. 795: No. That I know for sure they are not. I haven't heard anything because usually everyone--we are talking about, you know, exercising or events we've been to or families. You know, I doubt it if no one--I can't say that. Most of the people here, including myself, you know. We take this serious, so we know a lot of money is being spent.
THE COURT: You have got a lot of time involved here.
JUROR NO. 795: I don't think anyone is going to be that silly to be around here talking about something. As a matter of fact, we don't know nothing to talk about it, so what can we say, you know? And everyone has been really, in my opinion--you know I haven't heard anything. I really haven't. You know, we don't even discuss nothing. When we leave the court, we don't discuss anything. So I feel pretty, you know, safe in saying this. I don't think anyone is doing that at all.
THE COURT: Do you have the impression that anybody has already formed an opinion about the case?
JUROR NO. 795: Well, you know, it is hard to say that. Outwardly I would say no, they haven't spoke it verbally, but in their minds and hearts you don't know how a person feel, but outwardly, no, I wouldn't think so.
THE COURT: Nothing that would lead you to that conclusion about what they have said?
JUROR NO. 795: No, not at all.
THE COURT: Anything come to your attention that would cause to you believe that any of the jurors have received information about the case from outside the courtroom from other sources, visitation, phone calls or anything like that?
JUROR NO. 795: No, because you know, we be so close until--you basically hear everything. Even when you are on the phone you hear people's conversation. When you are visiting you have all the people around, you and your families. As a matter of fact, that was the complaint I didn't like. Well, you know, I am not used to being around. I be around a lot of people being a technician, everyday, but sometime with your family members you feel more--what is the word--you just want to be with your own family by myself, not everyone hearing about your business, but you got nosy people trying to listen, well, did you pay your phone bill and et cetera. I don't want everyone knowing all my business, but that part I really don't like, but I know it come with the territory. So being in this closely knit family like grouping, well, I know no one is discussing that, because we hear everything, everyone is talking loud and so I know that is no.
THE COURT: All right. Juror no. 7, one of the problems we have is this case is going a little slower than I thought it would. I'm trying to speed things up, but it looks to me like we may be looking at July or August. Are have you going to be able to live with us that long?
JUROR NO. 795: Well let's see. It is April now. May, June, July, August. Yeah, why not? I've been here this long.
THE COURT: All right. Is there anything--
JUROR NO. 795: If I don't get sick.
THE COURT: Do you have anything you feel that you need to tell me or want to tell me at this point?
JUROR NO. 795: Well, I think everyone is doing a great job. You know, the deputies, everyone we come in contact with everyday. I get along with all the jurors. I had two conflicts with two jurors when I first got here, but I used the technique what I explained to you. I didn't like the way they talked to me, so I didn't get them in a group and try and embarrass them. I taking them aside and I told them that I didn't really care for the tone of voice. I'm an adult, and you know, if I respect you, you respect me, and you know, we handled that situation greatly and I didn't tell no one else about it. Now, we are best of friends. You know we talk, we get along. You know, I believe in going straight to the source, you know, and just talk it out, because sometimes people aren't aware of the things they may do to you, not knowing that it offends you, so if you go to that person you let them know it offends you, well, then you don't have a problem, but if you don't let a person know that they did something to offend you, how do they know if you don't tell them?
So I think if people would do this more on juries everyone would be better off, rather than going and telling someone else about the problem instead of going to the source, and I think basically this is a problem. A lot of people assume things in their mind, you know, because they don't know how to deal with life and people period, so they go around and inventing all this stuff in their mind and then trying to convince other people, and you have weak people that fall in that trap, and they say, well, so and so said this, so it must be true. But you can't go through life like that, and I think this may be the problem, you know. Instead of people just using their own judgment, they will be better off than listening to other people and having them plant things in their mind that is not true, then they believe these things.
THE COURT: All right. Juror no. 7, I want you to know that if anything comes up that concerns you, all you need to do is write out a note "I need to talk to the Judge," give to it one of the bailiffs. You don't even have to say what it is. Just say "I need to talk to you." Let me know if it is an emergency or something that I can take care of within the next day.
JUROR NO. 795: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: And I talk to anybody who sends me a note, but feel free to do that.
JUROR NO. 795: Sure.
THE COURT: Any suggestions about anything more than that we can do to make this a situation that you can live with?
JUROR NO. 795: Well, like I say, the only thing you could do probably is let me and my family members be on this side of town and the others--no, everything is great. That is the only gripe I have. But you know, I can't do anything about that. But everyone is doing the best, and I really appreciate it. Everything is really great.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Number--I'm sorry, Mr. Cochran, Miss Clark?
(Discussion held off the record between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)
THE COURT: Umm, Juror no. 7, was there any problem at the last trip to … and … about shopping times and groups?
JUROR NO. 795: What do you mean?
THE COURT: Anything?
JUROR NO. 795: Oh, anything?
THE COURT: Any problem?
JUROR NO. 795: Not to my knowledge. I guess I don't look for problems. You know, I just go through life with a smile and try and treat everyone right and I don't look at every little thing as a problem.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 795: So maybe that is it.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR NO. 795: No, I didn't see anything.
THE COURT: Okay. Juror no. 7, I'm going to order you not to discuss what we have discussed here in chambers with anybody else. I've got to talk to a lot of people.
JUROR NO. 795: Sure.
THE COURT: So don't discuss it with anybody else.
JUROR NO. 795: Okay. Thank you.
(Juror no. 795 exits chambers.)
JUROR NO. 795: Okay. Thank you. Have a good day.
THE COURT: All right. No. 8.
(Brief pause.)
THE CLERK: Juror 1233.
(Juror no. 1233 enters chambers.)
THE COURT: 1233, would you have a seat there. Good morning.
JUROR NO. 1233: Good morning.
THE COURT: Hi, how are you today?
JUROR NO. 1233: I'm fine, thank you.
THE COURT: Juror no. 8, if you recall--I'm just referring to your seat number rather than your other. If you recall, the day before yesterday I mentioned that something had come to my attention and I needed to talk to each one of you individually and that is what we are doing here today. And the law here in California requires that anytime a Judge--a concern regarding the jury is brought to the Judge's attention, that the Judge has to immediately investigate or look into any problems that might be raised, and that has happened here, so I need to talk about certain things. I want you to understand that just because somebody raises concerns, that doesn't necessarily mean that I believe those concerns to be true, and I want you to know from the outset that my inquiry--there is no indication or intimation that you have done anything wrong or that you have committed any juror misconduct. All right. So I want you to understand that. What I need to do is just get from you some information, your observations about certain things that I've been told about. Okay?
JUROR NO. 1233: Sure.
THE COURT: All right. Juror no. 8, are you aware of any serious conflict between individual jurors. By "Serious conflict" I don't mean just, you know, racing to get in the head of the line at dinner or who gets to watch what video when. I mean some serious conflict between jurors.
JUROR NO. 1233: I've heard a couple of jurors complain that they've had problems, but--
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 1233: But again, I don't really know if that is serious. It is--one juror complained that another hit him, you know, while watching television.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 1233: And--
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 1233: I wasn't a party to that. I just heard what he said afterwards. I wasn't in the room.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 1233: But evidently he was watching television and sitting in one of the front row seats and another juror walked behind him and hit him up against the head and then started kicking the chair and when he asked them to stop they didn't, they continued, but then they stopped afterwards. And then another incident was--
THE COURT: Do you know which jurors were involved in this?
JUROR NO. 1233: 1489 was the one that said 353 was the one that hit him on the head.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay. Then another incident I heard was, umm, 462, she said 353 stepped on her foot while she was leaving the jury box one day to go to the restroom and that is all I know.
THE COURT: All right. You didn't--did you observe this?
JUROR NO. 1233: I didn't observe that. Even though I sat right next to her, I didn't see it.
THE COURT: Any other incident that might involve any physical contact between the jurors?
JUROR NO. 1233: Well, a long time ago, 462 said that a lady that is no longer here pushed her or something.
THE COURT: Yeah, we talked about that before.
JUROR NO. 1233: That is all. That is all that I know of.
THE COURT: Any other conflict that you are aware of?
JUROR NO. 1233: No. Well, okay. There was one other incident at dinner, no. 19.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 1233: Had an argument with--I don't even remember his number now, but he is no longer here.
THE COURT: 602.
JUROR NO. 1233: Yeah, okay.
THE COURT: I know about that one.
JUROR NO. 1233: All right. That is all.
THE COURT: Okay. Juror no. 8, have you observed anything, seen anything, heard anything, that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct by any of the sheriff's deputies or our bailiffs?
JUROR NO. 1233: Umm, yeah, sometimes I have seen facial expressions on some of the deputies when certain jurors may ask them to do something.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 1233: It shows that maybe--
THE COURT: Give me an example?
JUROR NO. 1233: Umm, one in particular, 453, she--sometime she may ask Deputy "I" something and she will just have an expression on her face like I don't really want to do this, but she will go ahead and do it, and Deputy "B", sometimes his driving, he doesn't act very professionally.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay. I don't know if you are--
THE COURT: That is the first time I've heard that.
JUROR NO. 1233: If you are familiar with the way the driveway is when we go into the hotel, it is very narrow.
THE COURT: It is narrow and you go down the wrong way.
JUROR NO. 1233: And sometimes he has a tendency to drive kind of fast, and you know, you have to make these turns and he is a good driver, but you know, a lot of time you don't really want to deal with that. It is kind of scary.
THE COURT: Yeah.
JUROR NO. 1233: And sometimes we've missed hitting--
THE COURT: It is not Disneyland?
JUROR NO. 1233: No, it is not an "E" ride or something.
THE COURT: Okay, okay.
JUROR NO. 1233: There has been a couple of instances when we've almost missed hitting a bus and he was backing up one day and he almost bumped into a Jeep, but--
THE COURT: So you would like for him to be counseled about his driving techniques?
JUROR NO. 1233: Yeah. Usually I just try to avoid getting into his van, but sometimes it is not possible to avoid that.
THE COURT: Okay. Anything else that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct?
JUROR NO. 1233: Umm, okay. Deputy "A" in the evening, he has a tendency, I don't--to--maybe he has another deputy watch certain jurors more than other jurors, and I don't know why this is, but he does that.
THE COURT: All right. How did that come to your attention?
JUROR NO. 1233: It came to my attention when we first received the new equipment for exercising.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay. The first Friday night that we received the equipment he said that he didn't have deputies available to take other jurors downstairs to the gym.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 1233: So I questioned him about that and he said that he just didn't have anybody available, but I didn't understand it, because in the past we've always had the same number of deputies on duty. But he just said he didn't have people to go down. So then I guess I was persistent and finally he did, you know, take us downstairs, but then the same thing happened the very next Friday night, and again after my insistence, because I told him, I thought it was understood that we were supposed to go downstairs if we wanted to, because I asked Sergeant "J" before the new equipment arrived if that would interfere with us going downstairs to the gym because some of us like the use of the steam and sauna, and he said, no, it would have not affect, but--
THE COURT: Has that been worked out since?
JUROR NO. 1233: Oh, no, that was eliminated.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 1233: Even though he did say he would look into having us go downstairs, but he never brought it up again.
THE COURT: So one of the things that you would like to see is the availability--the problem is, you know, the hotel opens it to their guests and then it is only available to us after it is closed, either late at night or early in the morning. Would you like that?
JUROR NO. 1233: That was about the only thing that I enjoyed while I was here, you know, and I realize it was at ten o'clock, but it was relaxing at the end of the day. Even if we could just do it one day a week, you know, I would like that, rather than not at all.
THE COURT: Okay. How about if I look into that?
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay. I would appreciate that.
THE COURT: I like to take a good steam every now and again, too.
JUROR NO. 1233: Yeah.
THE COURT: Okay. Nothing like it, actually.
JUROR NO. 1233: Yeah.
THE COURT: All right. Anything else that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct by any of the deputies?
JUROR NO. 1233: No, I can't think of anything else.
THE COURT: Has there ever been a situation where the jurors have been using the phone room--and you use the phone room?
JUROR NO. 1233: Yes.
THE COURT: Where they were not monitored or they didn't make the phone call for you or fill out the log appropriately?
JUROR NO. 1233: I think they've always filled out the log, but there have been times when we've made phone calls ourselves.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 1233: Umm, I think they feel if it is a number that we call all the time, they are pretty familiar with who we call, and if it is a number that they are familiar with, they will tell us that we can go ahead and dial it ourselves and just admonish the person that they can't discuss the case.
THE COURT: Have they talked to the person or they expect you to do that?
JUROR NO. 1233: When we dial the phone we do that.
THE COURT: Do you recall what deputy told you to go ahead and do that?
JUROR NO. 1233: Umm, Deputy "B" has done that and Deputy "D". Those are the only two that come to mind.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay. One other thing about the phone room, now, sometimes they play cards in there.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 1233: And one day it was about four of them playing cards, and I mean you couldn't even hear your conversation over their conversation behind us, you know, with their card game, and sometimes if there is two deputies in there playing cards, they have a tendency to get involved in the game and we could be off of the telephone and we may want to make another call and you have to get their attention, you know, that we would like to make another phone call.
THE COURT: While they are playing cards and you need to make another phone call, have they ever said to you, "Just go ahead and dial your own"?
JUROR NO. 1233: Not while they are playing cards, no.
THE COURT: Okay. With regards to the visitation--and you have family visits and the sheriff's are supposed to be discreetly monitoring what is going on--have there been any problems regarding that?
JUROR NO. 1233: No. They make themselves visible.
THE COURT: Has there been anything that the sheriffs have done that makes you feel that they are promoting a racial tension, a racial animosity between the jurors?
JUROR NO. 1233: No.
THE COURT: All right. Has it come to your attention or have you been led to believe or by anything you have seen, that your room has been searched?
JUROR NO. 1233: Yes.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 1233: Umm, okay. I have a nightstand right next to my bed and there has been a couple of occasions where it seems that things in the drawer weren't as I left them. And one kind of really strange incident is I have an overnight bag that I usually keep locked, because I keep, you know, my checkbook and cash and things like that in there, and there were things in there that I know I didn't leave them in that order, but it was--I couldn't see how anybody could go in there with it being locked, but I know I'm not crazy, and you know, it was different.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 1233: And then I've talked with a couple of other jurors and they have expressed the same thing, although a little more bizarre things have happened to them.
THE COURT: Such as?
JUROR NO. 1233: One juror complained that her lights, you know, were left on while she was sleeping during the night. When she woke the next morning the lights were on, which that seemed kind of hard to believe someone could come in your room, but she was very adamant.
THE COURT: Which juror was that?
JUROR NO. 1233: That was 462.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 1233: And then 453 has expressed to me that she has noticed items, like she has cookies or something in her room and she has noticed pieces of paper or something inside the container or her shoes weren't left in the same manner that she left them and things of that sort. And those were the only two that really expressed anything that has happened in their room.
THE COURT: Okay. Has anything come to your attention that would cause you to believe that the sheriff's deputies are treating any jurors or groups of jurors different than the others?
JUROR NO. 1233: Umm, yeah, I guess.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay. We've had a couple of outings recently, and if you don't come out of your room, it seems like during the early morning hours, you don't know what is going on until it is time to go, you know, and they will come and knock on your door and say, you know, we are going such and such a place, but you haven't been notified previously, you know, that we were even going anywhere. But certain jurors, they have a tendency to know what is going on as soon as I guess the deputies find out what is happening. And the thing with Deputy "A", you know, certain jurors--as I was saying, he will make sure that someone is watching them at all times, but then other jurors could be in the same room on a different occasion and there is no one watching them.
THE COURT: Can you tell me what jurors are involved, who is being watched more closely than others?
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay. I would say myself, 1489, 453, 165 and that is it. As opposed to, you know, just other--any other jurors. It seems like if we are together, playing cards or watching a movie or something, he wants to make sure that he is aware of what we are doing at all times.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 1233: And I think maybe it is because, you know, we challenged his authority or something, in my instance, with, you know, going to the gym on those two occasions, and I know 1489 has said that he wasn't fair with him with the video room or something on a couple of occasions.
THE COURT: Uh-huh, okay. Umm, has there been any problem regarding any of the shopping outings?
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay. The last shopping trip that we went to, … and …, it was indicated to us that we had one hour to shop. We could either do the whole hour in either … or … or we could have thirty minutes in … and thirty minutes in … okay. I chose to do both places. So then when I was finishing up in …, the group that I was with, we were on our way out and we were being rushed out because, you know, they said it was time to go, so we were coming out, but then we saw another group of jurors coming in, who initially were supposed to spend their whole hour in …, but they were allowed a chance to come into … so then they say, well, you have fifteen more minutes, but if we hadn't bumped into them, so to say, we would have been forced out, and you know, back on the van.
THE COURT: Has that happened ever before, something similar to that?
JUROR NO. 1233: That was the first occasion that happened.
THE COURT: All right. Has it happened since?
JUROR NO. 1233: No. We haven't gone shopping since.
THE COURT: This was a couple weeks ago, wasn't it?
JUROR NO. 1233: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Has there been any--okay. You told me about the gym time. Any special treatment that anybody has gotten regarding use of the phones?
JUROR NO. 1233: Umm, some deputies monitor the 15-minute restriction more closely than others and then some people take advantage of the situation and they will just stay on the phone knowing that there is a waiting list.
THE COURT: Maybe I should send some of my hour glasses over there?
JUROR NO. 1233: Yeah.
THE COURT: Okay. But do you feel--is that just some deputies are more lax than others or do you think somebody is getting special treatment?
JUROR NO. 1233: I don't think anyone is getting special treatment. Some deputies are just more had lax regarding the phone use than others and I feel they just figure we should be more responsible as far as noting, you know, how long we have been on the phone.
THE COURT: Okay. Has there been any problem, any special treatment regarding the videotapes? You remember you mentioned to me that 1489 said that he felt he was not being fairly treated regarding that. Can you tell me about that?
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay. There is two rooms for viewing videos, and a schedule was made for the front room, and in the back room it was--well, the system that they set up, you know, didn't seem quite fair, because they were saying you had to view all the videos in the front room before anything could be viewed in the back room, which, say, for instance, if they viewed a movie Sunday night, then Monday night the back room was--you know, should see that movie, but then you have the rest of the week where videos are just sitting there and they would say you couldn't watch anything in the back.
THE COURT: That is crazy.
JUROR NO. 1233: Yeah, it is, but that was their--
THE COURT: That has changed, correct?
JUROR NO. 1233: That has since changed, yes.
THE COURT: That was brought to my attention. That is why you have a schedule now.
JUROR NO. 1233: Anything about--
JUROR NO. 1233: Yes.
THE COURT: Anything that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors have committed any misconduct with regard to the case itself?
JUROR NO. 1233: No.
THE COURT: Have you--has anything come to your attention that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors have discussed the case?
JUROR NO. 1233: No.
THE COURT: Anything that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors have formed opinions already about the case?
JUROR NO. 1233: No.
THE COURT: Or any aspect of the case?
JUROR NO. 1233: No.
THE COURT: Anything that would lead you to believe that any of the jurors have received information about the case from sources outside of the courtroom?
JUROR NO. 1233: No, not to my knowledge.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Cochran, Miss Clark.
MR. COCHRAN: No.
THE COURT: Juror no. 8, is there anything that you feel you need to tell me or you want to tell me?
JUROR NO. 1233: No, I can't think of anything else.
MR. COCHRAN: Length of time--length of time.
THE COURT: I am getting there.
MR. COCHRAN: Sorry.
THE COURT: No. 8, I want you to know that you should feel free anytime you need to bring something to my attention--
JUROR NO. 1233: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: --all you need to do is write a note, give it to the bailiff and just say "I need to talk to you" and let me know if it is emergency which I will drop everything and talk.
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay.
THE COURT: Or if it is something that I can get to you within a day--as you know, I've got dozens of other things to do everyday.
JUROR NO. 1233: I understand.
THE COURT: I want you to feel comfortable with that, and it could be anything, but feel free with the knowledge that you can do that anytime you need to. Okay?
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay.
THE COURT: Also, the case is taking a little longer than I had hoped it would take.
JUROR NO. 1233: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: We are going slower than I thought we would. It looks to me perhaps July or August at this point. How do you feel about that? Can you survive?
JUROR NO. 1233: Yes. I had put off, remember, going to school until August--it is supposed to start in August now, so--
THE COURT: Well, I will push them.
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay.
THE COURT: I will push them. All right?
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay.
THE COURT: Anything else, any special requests, anything I can do for you to make things better for you? I mean, I'm trying to get quality entertainment.
JUROR NO. 1233: Oh, I appreciate that. That was very nice, Jay Leno.
THE COURT: Pretty nice, hum?
JUROR NO. 1233: Yeah.
THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to try to get--my staff is working all the time. We are going to try to get some of the first-run movies in. Tasia is going to call the producer of Bad Boys today and see if you can get us that movie.
MR. COCHRAN: Good movie.
THE COURT: Some of the first-run stuff and we will try to get started on that, but if you have any special requests or suggestions, we are happy to hear them.
JUROR NO. 1233: No. I only thing if you could work on going downstairs to the steam room at least once a week, I would like that.
THE COURT: I will look into that. It may be at an oddball time.
JUROR NO. 1233: I was used to the ten o'clock.
THE COURT: Simply because of the hotel arrangements that we have.
JUROR NO. 1233: Right.
THE COURT: Okay. Juror no. 8, thank you very much. I'm going to order you not to discuss anything that we've talked about so far with any of the other jurors.
JUROR NO. 1233: Okay.
THE COURT: Thank you very much.
(Juror no. 1233 exits chambers.)
THE COURT: Okay. Let's take a ten-minute break.
MS. CLARK: Good.
(Recess.)
THE COURT: Have a seat. Let's have Juror no. 247, Juror no. 6.
(Brief pause.)
(Juror no. 247 enters chambers.)
THE COURT: All right. 247, why don't you have a seat there, sir.
JUROR NO. 247: Okay.
THE COURT: Good morning. How you doing today?
(Proceedings held in camera, not included in released order of transcript.)
THE COURT: I need to talk to you about some stuff for about half an hour. Do you feel up to it now?
JUROR NO. 247: Sure, sure.
THE COURT: Juror no. 6, I'm referring to your seat number. If you recall, the day before yesterday I mentioned that some matters had been brought to my attention, that I needed to conduct an investigation about, and you should understand that the law in the state of California requires that anytime information is brought to a Judge's attention that may indicate some problems within the jury, that the Judge has to then conduct an investigation immediately. And so that is what we are doing here. And I want you to understand that just because these concerns have been raised doesn't mean that I necessarily believe them to be true and you should understand that the questions that I'm going to be asking you, there is no indication that you have engaged in any misconduct or there are any problems with regard to your behavior, but I do need to ask each individual juror about this, just so you understand before we start. Okay?
JUROR NO. 247: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Juror no. 6, have you become aware of any conflicts between any of the individual jurors, and by "Conflicts" I mean something serious, not just a conflict over who gets to use what exercise machine first or standing in line for meals or anything like that, but a serious personal conflict between jurors?
JUROR NO. 247: Umm, well I guess the term "Serious" is what I probably am concerned with. I mean, there are--there is a problem--an obvious problem in one regard.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 247: In that they are--I just want to make sure everything is private here--I mean, there seems to be a splintered group from the rest of the panel, of course, and there is a leader to that group, and you know, it seems that they operate outside of the rest of the jurors in regard to just about all situations.
THE COURT: All right. But is there any--are you aware of any, say, for example, any physical contact between any of the jurors?
JUROR NO. 247: I am not aware of any physical contact, your Honor, no, sir I'm not.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any hitting incident in the video room?
JUROR NO. 247: No, I am not aware of that.
THE COURT: All right. Are you aware of any physical contact within the jury box itself?
JUROR NO. 247: No, not at all.
THE COURT: Juror no. 6, has anything come to your attention, have you observed anything that would indicate to you that the sheriff's deputies have been comporting themselves in and you professional manner?
JUROR NO. 247: (No audible response.)
THE COURT: Any unprofessional conduct or behavior by any of the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 247: Umm, you know, I've had a personal experience of my own that I felt was unprofessional.
THE COURT: I'm sorry, personal experience where?
JUROR NO. 247: A personal experience of my own.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 247: That was unprofessional.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 247: Umm, it was in regard to going out to the … … by the hotel. Apparently I guess it was a Saturday and deputy--it has been about a month or so ago--this really bothered me, though--about a month or so ago we were out there at the fountain area, Deputy "I" apparently was in charge that day, and out there we are pretty much allowed to wander around that area out there.
THE COURT: Was this during a visitation or just--
JUROR NO. 247: No, this was a Saturday afternoon after lunch.
THE COURT: Get out and stretch, get some fresh air?
JUROR NO. 247: Get out and stretch, supposedly out in that area that was something that had started coming about, and it was pretty nice up until this experience I had, of course. And while out in that area of course we are all allowed to wander around in the area, and I'm pretty much a loner on the jury myself, although I do get along well with everyone, and I what to be courteous and amicable with everyone, and I was taking a walk by myself and of course I was just circling the … and I came to one point and Deputy "I" was there and there were some white jurors that were crossing me at that point, and I hear--heard her shout out, "Could you stop right there, sir," and at first I didn't pay it any attention. She is "Would you please stop right there." And as I turned to look to see what was the problem, she said, "Okay, you can go now" and so it kind of bothered me a little bit because, you know, I mean, these other people were passing and she didn't--she didn't single them out, and so as I continued to finish my exercise walk, I was up on the upper level of the …, she had moved over right behind the … …, so I took a seat on a bench directly across from where her view was at. There were other deputies out there, of course, you know, just being in the area with the jurors and everyone was allowed to walk around. A lot of the other white jurors were down on the lower level, they wander into areas that aren't even able to be seen by some of the deputies probably. But anyway, this particular incident that I was sitting on the bench watching the …… kind of like in my own thoughts just relaxing, not bothering anybody, making it a point to be in eye view of somebody, of course, and she made her way over to the area that I was in, took a seat down at the bench a couple of benches down from me. And as I was sitting there I got relaxed, watching the … for a minute, and I lied back a little bit and I was just looking up at the sky and just engaged in my own thoughts and I had a cap on that day and I pulled the cap down over my eyes a little bit and I was just lying there. And all of a sudden she just runs over and bangs up against the bench I'm on. She says, "Hey, you have to get up, you have to get out of this area right now, you have to move." It caught me off guard and I jumped like and, "What is the matter with you? What is going on here? You are right in the line of these people's picture. You have you have to move out of this area" and there are some Asian tourists over to the side of me. These people aren't interested in taking a picture of me, I'm not bothering anyone, just lying there; I'm relaxed. Other jurors wandering around and you are in the line of fire of other picture takers all the time and no one bothers them about it. Why was I being singled out at that point? So I was very annoyed by it, I really was, and annoyed to the point that after we had finished that--and I mean I was very angry. After we left there and we went back to the hotel, I was sitting in one of the rooms and I could hear her relaying this incident to who I thought--in the hallway to who I thought was Sergeant "J", although I can't say for sure it was him that she was speaking to, but it was another male deputy, of course. And she was relaying the incident to him and he tells her, "Oh, you did the right thing.
That was the right thing for you to do, "I" and I was incensed. I was like no one even bothered to come to me, ask me about the incident, apologize to me or explain why I was approached in that manner or anything like that. And I was so incensed about it, I had actually written a letter to you about it, and I had brought it here one day and I was going to give it to Deirdra here, but I didn't make contact with her that day, and so as I thought about it, the more and more I started--because I'm to the point where I don't really trust anybody involved here. I mean, no respect to you, your Honor, I don't even trust you, sir. I mean, I don't trust anybody. So I decided that rather than make any waves about it, I would just leave the incident alone, hopefully I won't be in that situation again. And what I've done is on other occasions when it has been offered to go out there, I will tell the deputy, I said, "Hey, look, I'm not going out there and being hassled and harassed by Deputy "I". I am not putting myself in that position again," and they kind of grudge me off and laugh and walk off and leave it alone. But as I said, I was--just reminded me of some other things.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 247: About police and--well, I--you know, I have no problems with police officers myself, but it kind of reminds of why so many black men in America have such a problem with being confronted with white police officers in situations like when they are operating their cars and they become very defensive about it and it just kind of made me realize that those situations do exist and you don't really have to be doing anything for them to take it upon themself to be harassing toward you.
THE COURT: Juror no. 6, obviously you feel very strongly about this, and I want you to know that you should feel--at any time free to ask to speak to me about any of these issues that come up regarding any of the conditions that you are operating under as a juror in this case.
JUROR NO. 247: Yeah.
THE COURT: And you should feel free to give a note to any of the bailiffs addressed to me, and all it has to say is "I need to talk to you," and let me know if it is an emergency that, you know, I need to drop everything and talk to you or it is something that I can get back to you within a day. Because as you know. I've got dozens of other things going on in my life as well.
JUROR NO. 247: I realize this and I didn't know whether it was appropriate.
THE COURT: You should also understand that I carry a pager 24 hours a day just so the sheriffs can contact me about anything that goes on over at the hotel, and I have talked to them over the evening hours about things that go on, just things that they think I need to know now, I need to know about these kinds of things. If you feel that you are being treated in an unjustifiable way or and unprofessional way, you need to tell me about that, because the only way that I can make it better is if I know about it. If I don't know about it, there is nothing I can do about it, just so we understand that you should feel free to do that. Secondary, is there anything about that experience that is going to cause you a problem about being a fair juror in this case?
JUROR NO. 247: Well, no, not at all, not about that.
THE COURT: You see, I don't want you to be distracted by this kind of stuff.
JUROR NO. 247: Because on the other hand, there are certain other deputies I could commend as being very professional, very courteous, very respectful, and that is white, black and different deputies that have all been very nice, you know. That is the only experience that I felt was an unjust situation in regard to myself that I had really, to be honest with you, outside of some of other minor things even prior to that with Deputy "I", but for some reason, her and I we just--
THE COURT: Tell me about those other minor things.
JUROR NO. 247: Umm, phone room.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 247: Situations where she was very insistent upon listening to my messages on my answering service and then I noticed that she wasn't doing it with some other jurors, also, and I don't know, there might have been a time where I thought she was giving someone else a preference over me.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 247: Like in--I think it was a movie selection thing, like real early when we first got there, there was one incident of that nature I think.
THE COURT: Can you give me a little bit more detail about that, if you recall?
JUROR NO. 247: Umm, I had been in the room, another Caucasian juror, I had been in the room, she was there and she asked me what movie I wanted to see and I told her, and no one else in there, but she was having a problem getting the movie started. Then another white juror came in and said, "Oh, I have seen that movie, let's watch something else," and then she was like ready to let this juror watch that movie, but then someone called her, another deputy called her and then as she left the other guy said, "Go ahead, you can watch what you want." And to be honest with you, at that point, because there was so much of a thing about it, you know, I got to the point where I don't really care about that. I'm not involved in those kind of situations any more. You know, I just need to go in something negative like that once and then I realize it is not even worth it for me to indulge in it.
THE COURT: Okay. Have you noticed anything about the way in which the phone room is monitored that is unprofessional?
JUROR NO. 247: No, not at all.
THE COURT: Have you ever observed the deputies playing cards and then just telling you to just go ahead and make your phone calls without doing the dialing or using--logging the phone calls?
JUROR NO. 247: Well, yeah, I have seen that.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 247: I have seen that.
THE COURT: On how many occasions have you seen that?
JUROR NO. 247: It might have been several; four or five occasions maybe.
THE COURT: Do you recall which deputies were playing cards when that happened?
JUROR NO. 247: I wouldn't want to speculate. I'm not too sure about who they were. It wasn't the same ones all the time.
THE COURT: Okay. During the family visitations have you noticed anything that wasn't right about the monitoring of visits?
JUROR NO. 247: Yeah. I wear Deputy "G" like a shadow on me. I notice that.
THE COURT: All right. Well, you understand the reason for it, but I mean is there anything unprofessional about the way they do it or do you see any laxity about it?
JUROR NO. 247: It may be--well, I guess not. No, I guess not. I mean, on a whole, no, no, not at all.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 247: I don't see there is a problem.
THE COURT: Have you seen anything, any conduct by the sheriffs that would cause you to believe that they are promoting any racial conflict or tension among the jurors?
JUROR NO. 247: No, I haven't seen that.
THE COURT: Juror no. 6, have you had anything come to your attention that might cause you to believe that your room had been searched in your absence?
JUROR NO. 247: Yes.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 247: Umm, I've had--you know, the thing about that, though, is that because there is maid service everyday, I don't know if I could interpret it as a room search or just the maid just probably moving something around.
THE COURT: I mean, is there anything--understanding that what I've ordered the sheriffs to do is anytime the maid comes in, there has to be a sheriff's deputy there in the room to make sure nothing is--they don't leave anything there.
JUROR NO. 247: Okay.
THE COURT: They don't steal anything out of your room.
JUROR NO. 247: Right.
THE COURT: So I mean that is why the sheriff's deputies are there for that and that is the reason I have ordered that. Is there anything that has occurred that could not have occurred during a normal maid service?
JUROR NO. 247: Okay, no, I can't say that there is.
THE COURT: Like nothing inside your drawers that have been moved or anything like that, that they wouldn't normally have access, sir?
JUROR NO. 247: No, sir, and believe me, I have tried to notice.
THE COURT: All right. Is there anything that has come to your attention that would cause you to believe that some jurors get different treatment than other jurors?
JUROR NO. 247: You know, it may be so, but I don't see it is along racial lines.
THE COURT: You see it is personality?
JUROR NO. 247: If that is the case.
THE COURT: How do you interpret that?
JUROR NO. 247: No, I mean, you know, certain jurors always have requests, you know, black, white, Hispanic, and to me they--you know, everyone pretty much gets their requests honored, special request for different things I guess they want.
THE COURT: Has there been any problem about any of the shopping outings that you are aware of?
JUROR NO. 247: Not to my knowledge, no, sir.
THE COURT: Any problems regarding any of the gym time or gym facilities?
JUROR NO. 247: Not to my knowledge at all.
THE COURT: And you told me about the phone use. Any problems about scheduling videotapes or their availability since we've put in the two video rooms?
JUROR NO. 247: Yup, that is the big problem.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 247: Umm, well, first of all, of course, the first video room was set up in the back, I will use the back of the hallway as a preference, and there is this one individual and their group who likes to be in charge of what is seen back there, and so consequently--consequently when they had occasions where their videos weren't--their requests weren't being taken into account, I know that they tried to make it a racial issue at that point that, oh, the white jurors get to watch what they want. But the thing about it is, is that when the second video room was set up, umm, it basically became a very, very easy room for everyone else to get along in, black, white, Hispanic. Everyone--no one tries to order movies in there. Whatever is playing, that is okay in this room. People can talk, they feel comfortable around each other. I feel comfortable in that room myself with all the other jurors, although by me being a male, I'm not intimidated by this one individual, and if something is playing in either room, I will set and watch it. This other individual was the type that yells at people when they talk during videos or something like that, and so consequently, I think most of the other jurors have taken it upon themselves to say, okay, we will just leave that room alone and we will use the other room. And I feel it is totally unfair personally that everyone does not have the opportunity to use both rooms equally, and so I think that what is happening is because no one challenges it, and of course the deputies, they have no choice, they go in the room they pick to watch something, the deputies put it on for them and they bring in their own videos from outside and watch their own videos back there, and they don't participate in watching videos in the front video room, and pretty much everyone else, all the other jurors, black, white, Hispanic, all watch videos in the other room and they all get along very well.
THE COURT: Uh-huh. Which juror is the one who insists on--
JUROR NO. 247: I knew you were going to ask me that. I know you know who it is, your Honor. I don't want to be the one to be--I don't want to be the snitch. I would really prefer not to.
THE COURT: I understand that, but if it is a problem, I need to know about it and it will help me talk to that individual and see if there is a problem. And from what you've described, it sounds to me like 1489.
JUROR NO. 247: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. All right. And you should understand that I'm going to order you at the conclusion of this not to discuss this with anybody.
JUROR NO. 247: Well, I don't. I don't pretty much discuss anything with anybody.
THE COURT: I need to make sure. I mean, we are in here for a long haul together.
JUROR NO. 247: Don't tell me that.
THE COURT: Well, we will get to that in a second. Juror no. 6, is there anything that has come to a your attention that has caused you to think that any of the jurors have discussed the facts of the case or any of the witnesses?
JUROR NO. 247: From my observation not at all, sir.
THE COURT: Anything that would lead you to the conclusion that any of the jurors have already formed opinions about the case?
JUROR NO. 247: No, sir.
THE COURT: Anything that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors have received information about the case from sources outside of the courtroom?
JUROR NO. 247: Not to my knowledge, sir.
THE COURT: All right. It looks to me like we are going a little slower than I had anticipated and we may be looking at July or August.
JUROR NO. 247: That is better. I was going to give you August or September and then I was going to do what I had to do.
THE COURT: All right. Well, I'm going to push these people a little harder. I might expand some of the court hours, but you have to understand that this is a very difficult trial for all of us to be involved in.
JUROR NO. 247: I do, yes.
THE COURT: Okay. But we understand your jobs, too. Juror no. 6, is there anything else you feel you want to tell me or you need to tell me?
JUROR NO. 247: You know, I think you've pretty much covered--well, outside of--I have noticed that some of the restrictions have been removed as far as--I mean at one time we weren't even able to have water, access to water, of course, but within the last couple of weeks I noticed that the water … was put in the hallway. The only other thing to me that I would like to just say is that I don't know how difficult it would be for the court, but on some of these outings, such as like the one, the Leno outing or something like that, if it ever would have been possible for like one guest or one loved one to have been able to go to that with the juror, it would have made me feel a lot more comfortable about that situation, I know that.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 247: For sure. I know you can't just allow a whole bunch of people to do that, but you know what I mean.
THE COURT: It is a happy medium. You know, I want you to know my staff--I have one staff person who does nothing but all day try to find things for you guys to do, to get more videos for you or to provide--
JUROR NO. 247: They are doing a great job. I commend them.
THE COURT: It is something that we take very seriously. Do you have any suggestions? I know that we are very receptive. Any suggestions that you have in that regard, either the entertainment, suggestions, facilities, any suggestions that you have? I'm not going to put you on the spot now, but if you think of something, write it down and send me a note.
JUROR NO. 247: Good idea, but I'm not coming up with anything off the bat.
THE COURT: Think about it. Like I say, I'm very concerned that you feel you can't trust us. Them I don't worry about. Yes, I am very concerned about them, but I'm obviously concerned that you have a level of distress as far as I'm concerned.
JUROR NO. 247: Well, you know, it is just--it is just that there is so much intensity involved with this.
THE COURT: Yeah.
JUROR NO. 247: And you are under such scrutiny, like you are constantly under a microscope, and to me it just--you know, I don't know. I kind of liken it to a fascist state almost, and you know, it is very different. It is weird.
THE COURT: It is a very strange experience being a sequestered juror, I agree with you, and you should understand that you are under a lot of scrutiny, and when you finish your service on this case, you will find out, as I indicated to you, I'm going to make available to you the television coverage of the case while we are going and you will find that the intensity and scrutiny on us, you won't believe the intensity of that.
JUROR NO. 247: Well, actually in regard to that one thing--one other thing then that disturbs me is my identity and whereabouts are ever to be made to the press people, I would prefer not to.
THE COURT: No. That is why you have a number and I will do everything I can to protect you. If you recall, we have blocked your DMV records.
JUROR NO. 247: Right.
THE COURT: We have done a couple of other things. Unfortunately, the press has ways of identifying people, but I'm doing my best to make sure that that doesn't happen.
JUROR NO. 247: Okay.
THE COURT: Okay?
JUROR NO. 247: That is it.
THE COURT: Mr. Cochran?
MR. COCHRAN: No, nothing.
THE COURT: Miss Clark.
(Discussion held off the record between the Court, Ms. Clark and Mr. Cochran.)
THE COURT: All right. Okay. Juror no. 6, thank you very much, and I'm ordering you not to discuss this with anybody else. All right?
JUROR NO. 247: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you.
(Juror no. 247 exits chambers.)
THE COURT: Miss Clark, you asked me to ask who is the splinter group and all of that, who is the leader and what are the problems. I'm not inclined to get into that because I'm not inclined--I'm concerned about misconduct within the jurors, by the jurors, and unprofessional conduct by the sheriffs and how they form otherwise is not a concern to the Court unless there is personal conflict between them.
MS. CLARK: That is what it sounded like to me, what he was saying, there are problems with a splintered group.
THE COURT: Well, if they decided they like each other better, that is something that is entirely up to them. It is not a subject of inquiry and it is not categorized as misconduct, so it is not something that' I'm going to inquire into, just so the record is concerned.
MR. COCHRAN: The question on "I", that is a decision you are going to make?
THE COURT: That's correct.
THE CLERK: Juror 98.
(Juror no. 98 enters chambers.)
THE COURT: 98, have a seat. How are you today?
JUROR NO. 98: Fine.
THE COURT: Good. Welcome back again, Juror no. 98. As you know, the day before yesterday I mentioned that some concerns had been brought to me regarding the jury, and as you know, the law requires that anytime something is brought to my attention I have to investigate. And I know you and I have talked previously about other concerns and I want you to know, first of all, that these concerns are serious enough that I need to talk to all the jurors and that is what we are doing today, and I'm required by the law to look into it. But you should understand that I don't necessarily believe everything that somebody tells me is true, and that there is no allegation of any misconduct on your part, but I feel that I need to talk to each juror individually just to make sure that we don't have a problem. Okay?
JUROR NO. 98: Okay.
THE COURT: All right. Juror no. 9--and I'm just referring to your seat number at this point--are you aware of any conflict between individual jurors, and by that I mean a serious conflict, anything that would--that you would characterize as serious, anything that involves any physical contact or any boisterous verbal exchanges?
JUROR NO. 98: No, I am not.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any kicking or hitting incidents that have taken place within the jury box itself?
JUROR NO. 98: No, I'm not aware of any kicking or hitting. I am aware of an incident of someone passing someone.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 98: Well, am I to go into details here?
THE COURT: Yes.
JUROR NO. 98: Okay. No. 353 passed 12--what is it--1247--seat no. 10.
MR. COCHRAN: 1489.
THE COURT: 1489?
JUROR NO. 98: 1489 and accidentally stepped on his foot. Now, I didn't hear it all. The only part I knew, he was saying something and he stated, well, the next time--was told to me--"The next time you do that, I'm going to trip you" and that is the end of that move.
THE COURT: Did you hear that yourself or that was told?
JUROR NO. 98: I did not hear what he said. I know something was said, but I can't say this is what he said, but this is what was said to me that he said, because he was turned at an angle, so I really didn't hear word for word.
THE COURT: All right. Are you aware of any other incident?
JUROR NO. 98: No.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any incident regarding those two jurors, 1489 and 353, that took place in the video room?
JUROR NO. 98: Oh, no.
THE COURT: Umm--
JUROR NO. 98: Video room? Before this incident?
THE COURT: Before, after, during?
JUROR NO. 98: 1489, about an accident with the chair bumping and touching of the head?
THE COURT: Tell me about that. Do you know about that?
JUROR NO. 98: But that was--this was--this is--to me that was considered as an accident.
THE COURT: Were you there when that happened?
JUROR NO. 98: Well, yeah.
THE COURT: All right. Tell me what you saw.
JUROR NO. 98: Well, in passing, 353 was getting up, I think to go answer a phone or something, and accidentally touched no. 10 in the head, but then someone was tapping on his chair, you know, like putting their foot on the chair, and that was the end of that. But that was an accident to me, you know. I don't--
THE COURT: No big deal?
JUROR NO. 98: I wouldn't think it was.
THE COURT: How long ago was that?
JUROR NO. 98: That was quite a while back.
THE COURT: Okay. Have you seen any other conflict between 1489 and 353?
JUROR NO. 98: No.
THE COURT: Okay. No. 9, have you observed anything, seen anything, heard anything that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct by any of the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 98: No.
THE COURT: You use the telephone on a pretty regular basis?
JUROR NO. 98: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Has there ever been an occasion where the sheriff's deputies have been playing cards and they told you just go ahead and make your own phone call and didn't log it and didn't admonish the other person on the other side?
JUROR NO. 98: No, no.
THE COURT: Has there been any occasion where during the visitation that the sheriffs haven't been adequately monitoring the groups that are there visiting?
JUROR NO. 98: No. I think they walk around quite a bit.
THE COURT: All right. You are always aware they are there?
JUROR NO. 98: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Is there anything about anything the sheriffs have done that you would interpret as promoting any racial conflicts amongst jury members?
JUROR NO. 98: No, not that I could say.
THE COURT: All right. Has there been any occasion where you feel that your room over at the hotel has been searched without your permission?
JUROR NO. 98: No, not to my knowledge, because if it has, I mean it is okay with me.
THE COURT: Juror no. 9, is there anything about the way that things are going on within the jury that causes you to believe that the sheriffs are giving special treatment to some jurors?
JUROR NO. 98: No, I can't say that.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any problems regarding any one of the recent shopping outings?
JUROR NO. 98: No, I don't know anything about a shopping outing. I'm under the impression that some of us requires a little bit more attention than others.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 98: Well, let's face it, it is a lot of us in there that are grown, but some of us need to talk, we need additional things, maybe we need medicine, maybe we need to do this, maybe we need calls, so naturally, if they go to the deputy more than I would, because I might not need these things. I don't know what brought it up and to me I don't see it.
THE COURT: You don't have a problem with it?
JUROR NO. 98: No.
THE COURT: Okay. Anything about special treatment regarding usage of the gym or gym facilities?
JUROR NO. 98: Oh, I don't know. The gym we have upstairs?
THE COURT: Either the gym upstairs, downstairs, anything that has gone on with regards to those facilities?
JUROR NO. 98: I cannot speak on the gym downstairs because I didn't participate in that one. Upstairs we have a marvelous time to me. There is not a time when I need it, I can't, so I don't have a problem.
THE COURT: All right. The equipment is working out okay?
JUROR NO. 98: Great. As a matter of fact, too good.
THE COURT: Too good? Okay. You know what we should have done, we should have weighed all the jurors when we started.
JUROR NO. 98: That is true.
THE COURT: And then--
JUROR NO. 98: I will talk about my fifteen pounds.
THE COURT: Are we causing you problems there?
JUROR NO. 98: No, I'm controlling. I'm beginning to skip dinner, thank you.
THE COURT: All right. Any special treatment regarding use of the phones?
JUROR NO. 98: No.
THE COURT: Any special treatment that--regarding the videotapes, scheduling, availability?
JUROR NO. 98: No. They changed that. They show us what they have on schedule, but now we can pick our movies up to today and they show us what is on the schedule. If you have seen it, you know, if someone brings in a video, if we want to see it, we all agree, we can go see it, just in case if I get one personally or someone else.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 98: I don't have a problem really, I guess.
THE COURT: All right. No. 9, has anything come to your attention that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors are discussing the facts and circumstances of the case?
JUROR NO. 98: Oh, no. I don't--I myself haven't been in the presence--we joke a lot and talk about a lot of things, but that is taboo amongst us. We really don't do anything like that.
THE COURT: Okay. Is there anything that has occurred that you have observed or heard that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors have already formed opinions about the case?
JUROR NO. 98: No.
THE COURT: Anything that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors have received information about the case from sources outside of the courtroom?
JUROR NO. 98: Not me. I wouldn't--I wouldn't know that.
THE COURT: Okay. Juror no. 9, is there anything else that you feel you need to tell me or you want to tell me about any of the things we have talked about or anything else?
JUROR NO. 98: No, just I think everything is going along pretty smoothly and I think things that have occurred, I would think or thought that we were adults and we could iron it out. Me myself, if I have a problem with anyone, I guess I'm just that type of person, I just confront them, either a deputy or whomever it may be.
THE COURT: Okay. This trial is taking us a little longer than I thought it would. We may be looking at July or August at this point. How do you feel about that?
JUROR NO. 98: I'm a day by day person.
THE COURT: All right. You are with us?
JUROR NO. 98: If you hadn't said that, I wouldn't have been even thinking on those basis. I'm a day by day. I am with you. I am trying to do the best I can. I signed up for it; I will stay with it.
THE COURT: Okay. Well, you've got a lot of time invested at this point.
JUROR NO. 98: Okay.
THE COURT: Okay. I want you to know, Juror no. 9, that anytime something comes up that you think I ought to know about, you should feel free to just write a note, give it to the bailiff, just say, "Judge, I need to talk to you."
JUROR NO. 98: Okay.
THE COURT: If it is an emergency, tell me it is an emergency, because then I will drop whatever I'm doing and I will talk to you. If it is just I need to talk to you, then I will get to you within a day, because I have got dozens of other things going on all day everyday, but--
JUROR NO. 98: I understand.
THE COURT: --I'm always concerned about what is going on over there. Do you have any suggestions for us about how things are going over at the hotel or on the outings or any of the activities that we've got, anything you want to suggest that we do or that we stopped doing or anything you would like to do more of?
JUROR NO. 98: I think we are doing better because when anyone suggests anything, I happen to notice that it appears, so I mean I really don't have any problems. I guess since we are going to be here a little bit longer, I will suggest more beach outings.
THE COURT: More beach outings?
JUROR NO. 98: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Well--
JUROR NO. 98: Well, it is more relaxing, it is tranquil for me. I like to walk.
THE COURT: I did get that request to go skiing that I had to turn down.
JUROR NO. 98: We signed that.
THE COURT: Well, you know, I thought about that, but the problem is if I let you all go skiing, then two of you are going to break your legs.
JUROR NO. 98: I'm making all campfires. I mean, the wood on the fire, so I mean, it is up to them, skiing.
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Cochran? Miss Clark?
MR. COCHRAN: No.
MS. CLARK: No.
THE COURT: Juror no. 9, I'm going to order you not to discuss this with any of the other jurors. Okay?
JUROR NO. 98: No problem.
THE COURT: Okay. Thanks a lot.
JUROR NO. 98: Sure.
(Juror no. 98 exits chambers.)
THE CLERK: Juror 1489.
(Juror no. 1489 enters chambers.)
THE COURT: Good morning, 1489. Why don't you have a seat there, please.
JUROR NO. 1489: Good morning. Thank you.
THE COURT: How are you today?
JUROR NO. 1489: Fine, and you?
THE COURT: Well, getting there. Getting there. 1489, if you recall, the day before yesterday--actually I will refer to you by seat number because we are going through the seats today--Juror no. 10, if you recall, the day before yesterday I mentioned to the jurors out in the courtroom that something had been brought to my attention that I needed to talk to each one of you individually. And the law in California requires that anytime some allegation is made regarding the jury, that I need to immediately conduct an investigation, and I want you to understand that I don't necessarily believe these allegations to be true, and there is no indication of any misconduct on your part. And I want you to understand that before I start asking you these questions. Okay?
JUROR NO. 1489: Okay.
THE COURT: All right. 1489, are you aware of--and I should add into this context, though, I am also going to ask you some questions about that note that you sent to me back in--two weeks ago which I did get and let the lawyers know that I got it. But the situation was there were a lot of other things going on in the case and that didn't strike me as being tremendously important at that time, but I am going to ask you about that problem.
JUROR NO. 1489: Yeah.
THE COURT: Because the first thing I am going to ask you about is are you aware of any conflicts between any of the jurors? And this particular incident involved yourself. Do you want to tell us about that?
JUROR NO. 1489: That was myself and 353. What happened, I think basically we got along fine, we used to work out crossword puzzles together and whatever, and then I think when we were going down to the gym at night at ten o'clock, there was--well, we go down to the gym and there was a sign on the wall that said the apparatus could only be used for thirty minutes. And if nine people go down there and two people or three people on the apparatus for thirty minutes, that only gives you basically about fifteen minutes left because they usually leave to come up about fifteen, so I suggested that if seven, eight people went down there, we should only stay on the apparatus for fifteen minutes. And this particular juror, she would use the apparatus for thirty minutes, her and a few other people use it for thirty minutes, so that left some people out, and then if you wanted to use the steam, basically you had maybe ten or fifteen minutes, and if you go use the steam, that cuts you down. So I suggested that we use the apparatus for fifteen minutes, and then after that it seemed like this was directed specifically at her when all I was trying to do was do what was best for everybody that went down there, and then after that incident, then we were watching a movie after that and she passed behind me, and in my opinion she directly bumped me in the back of the head because I was just sitting watching the movie and all of a sudden she goes by and bumps the back of my head. And then when I turned I said, "Excuse me." She didn't say "Excuse me." I just said, "Excuse me." Then when she came back and sat down, then she sat directly behind me and started kicking my chair and the deputy was right there and nobody said anything, so when I turned around I said, "Do you have a problem behind me?" And so then the kicking stopped, so I let that go. And then we were in the jury room--we were in the panel, sitting up there, and then when she walked by, I would usually let her go in early so nobody would have to cross over, but it would seem like she would sit over in the corner, and when I look over, when they say, okay, let's go, she would just sit there. And I say, "They saying `let's go'" so she sit there, so I get up and go on in and so then she would have to cross over. On this particular day when I looked, when they said, "Let's go," she sat there and I waited for her and she just kept sitting there, so I got up and went in. Then when she pass by I leaned back and she just stepped right on my foot, you know, and then I say, "Well, what are you trying to do," you know, and then she went on and sat down, so I didn't make a big deal about it, but since this was the third incident, I say it is time that I bring it to your attention.
THE COURT: Okay. Can you think of any reason--I mean, what the basis of this problem between you and 353 would be?
JUROR NO. 1489: Like I said, it all happened--
THE COURT: I mean, she is a small female and you are a big guy. I mean, I got to tell you, I wouldn't do that to you.
JUROR NO. 1489: Well, I--I don't--I would only think that if I retaliated, then of course I'm kicked off the panel, and that is not my intention, so that is the only--you know, and I wouldn't be one to hit a lady, but by the same token, I thought it should be brought to somebody's attention.
THE COURT: I mean, did you feel that this was an effort to get you kicked off the jury?
JUROR NO. 1489: Well, I don't know. I mean so many things keep happening. If the same individual does something two or three times, then I don't exactly know what her purpose would be except to maybe antagonize me, but why she would want to do that, I don't know.
THE COURT: How long ago was this last incident?
JUROR NO. 1489: The last incident?
THE COURT: Yeah.
JUROR NO. 1489: That was the week I wrote you the note.
THE COURT: Okay. Has anything happened since then?
JUROR NO. 1489: No, no. I talked to Deputy "H" about the incident after that, so after that, nothing has happened since then.
THE COURT: I mean have you asked 353 why this happened?
JUROR NO. 1489: No, I didn't ask her.
THE COURT: Okay. Did you ever make a comment to her something along the lines that "If you do that again I will trip you" or something like that?
JUROR NO. 1489: That day that she stepped on my foot.
THE COURT: Okay. You seem to be--I mean, how do you feel about that today? I mean, obviously this was a couple weeks ago. How do you feel about that today?
JUROR NO. 1489: Well, I think she got the message now, so we have no problems.
THE COURT: Okay.
JUROR NO. 1489: She goes by now and then she started to speak before--well, she speaks once in awhile, you know. I speak, but she speaks once in awhile, so she is--tries to be more friendly, I guess, you know. I don't know. We go out to--sometimes--the last time we went to the--out to the … …, you know, we were playing basketball in the gym and her kid came in and wanted to play basketball, so I let him use the ball. I don't have nothing against anybody, you know. And then she had mentioned it earlier that I had let the kid use the ball when he was out there playing, but other than that--
THE COURT: All right. Should I be concerned about this problem?
JUROR NO. 1489: No, it is not something to be concerned about. I guess it is a matter of personalities, I think. We watch the movies. I think that was one of the key things that happened. She--she is the type that likes to talk all during the movies.
THE COURT: I hate those people.
JUROR NO. 1489: So I think that is another thing that stemmed out of this. When we were watching the movies, we are sitting there watching the movies and then she will have an ongoing conversation when everybody doesn't want to talk. Some people want to enjoy the movie and that is the way I am. And I mentioned this before, you know. I said, "Why don't you let somebody listen to the movie or either watch the movie," so now we have got another VCR. That happened after this. So now you've got those individuals who want to talk all during the movie, they are up in the front, and then the ones who want to watch the TV and just listen, they sit in the TV room in the back.
THE COURT: Okay. Has anything come to your attention that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct by any of the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 1489: I think--I think some of them were--I don't know whether it was favoritism I would say.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 1489: And this was as far as the TV rooms were concerned. They used to--well, Deputy "B", he was basically put in charge of the TV room because they were saying there were so many things happening in the TV room, so he posted a schedule and said, okay, we will adhere to the schedule. This is the way the TV room will run. Whatever is on the schedule, those are the movies we will watch this particular day. So this was up front where most of the noisy view it so in the back I said, "Well, what can we watch over in the TV room in the back?" He said, "You can't watch anything over there until it is watched over here first." If you set up the schedule on Monday and we are over here on Monday, what are we going to watch on Monday? He said, "Whatever you watch first, then they can watch it over there." I said, "Okay."
So he would get off at 7:00 or 7:30 and I would ask one of the other deputies and he said nothing. He said we can't watch anything until they see it over there first so he said, "What do you want to watch?" And I tell him a movie and they just go get a movie and bring it over there, and then we watch a movie, which was fine. And then I guess some of the jurors said, well, they are watching--they watched another movie over there that is on the schedule over here for Wednesday or Thursday and I pointed it out to them. I said, "This is on the schedule on Thursday. Why can't we watch it on the other side and it won't interfere with your schedule here?" Well, no, we have to go by this strict schedule, so when the other night crew would come on, they just said it didn't interfere with the schedule, and then after that started happening, some of the other jurors from the other side, then they decided to come over on this side and watch something over there on Monday when they know it is scheduled to be shown over here on Thursday. So then when they told him about this, then when the movie shows on Thursday, they say, "Well, we already saw that on the other side." So why would they come over there if they know they are going to watch it over here on Thursday? So then the videos started to--disappearing, so I said, "Well, what are we going to do? There is no videos over there now." "The only thing that is over there are the ones that is on the schedule."
THE COURT: That has changed now, hasn't it, that front room-back room business?
JUROR NO. 1489: Well, now there is a schedule in the front and there is a schedule in the back.
THE COURT: Okay. Any problem with that?
JUROR NO. 1489: No, except that the videos that are supposed to be in the back are not there all the time now.
THE COURT: Why do you think that is?
JUROR NO. 1489: I don't know. Maybe it is a mix-up. I don't know. It doesn't matter to me because in back, that is where the movies are, the movies for the hotel. They come on in the back all the time, so if those--if those videos are not available, I think last night they had home improvement, that was the video for the night, I don't watch home improvement, so nobody back there wanted to see home improvement, so we just watched a rerun on the movies. But they say if something on the schedule--if you don't want to watch what is on the schedule, you can watch what is available, so I asked them for another video. There was two videos on the schedule. I think one was home improvement and the other one was--I forget the name, but anyway, the deputy said the other video wasn't available, so we just watched the rerun.
THE COURT: All right. Have you seen any problems regarding the phone room, any special treatment or any problems with the monitoring of the phone room?
JUROR NO. 1489: No, I don't think the phone room is a problem.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR NO. 1489: You know, sometimes some people will be on the phones more than others, and then at times, depending on the deputies that are in there, they will come over and tell you, "Well, you've got two minutes left" or "You've got a minute left," but I don't think the phone room is a problem.
THE COURT: How about during the visitation, any problems with the monitoring?
JUROR NO. 1489: Well, I don't know if it is a problem, but sometimes I know I have visitors--my wife came one Sunday and she stayed downstairs for 45 minutes. She said she couldn't get in. Her and my daughter, my son-in-law, they said they were there for 45 minutes, they couldn't get in, and that was about 3:15. And I said ", well, somebody supposed to be there until 4:00 or 4:30," but that only occurred that one time when I brought that to one of the deputy's attention. I think they had some new people on and I guess after everybody came in, about three o'clock they assumed nobody else was coming in, they closed the shop, so after that he said they will keep someone there until 4:30.
THE COURT: So you brought it to their attention and it got taken care of?
JUROR NO. 1489: Right.
THE COURT: So that is not a problem now?
JUROR NO. 1489: No. The only thing that I thought--still seem to be a problem is there seems to be, I don't know, when the night crew comes on, it seems that some of the, I guess--I mean, I don't know if it is racial or anything, but it seem like some of the black jurors are treated like convicts.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 1489: Okay. Me and a couple of other jurors play dominos periodically, you know, so we will go in the card room to play dominos and we are just sitting there playing dominos and then when the deputies--one of the deputies will come and sit from here to the monitor and we are just playing dominos, you know, not doing anything, just playing dominos, and he will sit right there. And then the movie room is across the hall and nobody is over there, but the deputies are over here, you know. These are black jurors playing dominos. Now, last night, and this has happened before, black jurors will be watching TV and there will be some of the white jurors will be across the hall sitting over there talking or whatever and then the deputy will come over here across the hall and there may be only one black juror in there and the same deputy is sitting there, but nobody is over in the other hall across the hall where the white jurors are.
THE COURT: Okay. There is a racial division within the jury?
JUROR NO. 1489: It is not--it is not a racial thing, but I think it is just people like to hang out, you know, with whoever they feel comfortable with, but the deputies seem to make the disparity.
THE COURT: So you think--do you feel that deputies are promoting racial conflicts?
JUROR NO. 1489: I don't think they are promoting that, no. I just think that in some cases some of the deputies seem to pay more attention to black jurors being together than they do white jurors hanging out together.
THE COURT: Okay. Any other--any other--any other observations or indications that you feel certain jurors are treated differently than others?
JUROR NO. 1489: (No audible response.)
THE COURT: Any other references? For example, are you aware of any problems regarding any of the shopping tours?
JUROR NO. 1489: No problems, no, un-unh.
THE COURT: All right. Any problems regarding the use of the gym facilities?
JUROR NO. 1489: On the gym? Okay, the gym facilities before, when we used to go down on the 4th floor, there were about four, maybe five--I would say on a regular basis there was four black jurors that would go down and use the steam room, and 353 and some of the others, they said they wanted to get--they wanted more gym equipment, so now we have gym equipment on the 5th floor, but on the 4th floor they had two Stairmasters, two bicycles and two treadmills. And on the 5th floor where we are now there is one treadmill and there is one Stairmaster. So there is less gym equipment, and--
THE COURT: That is all donated stuff, by the way.
JUROR NO. 1489: That is fine, you know, but it is just most of the jurors who went to the steam were black, and now there is no more steam privileges so nobody goes down to use the steam room any more since we have the gym equipment on the same floor.
THE COURT: How often do you think you would use the steam room if we would--couple times a week be--
JUROR NO. 1489: I think two or three times a week people would go down there to use steam. That would be basically all.
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 1489: When I brought that to the night deputy's attention, I think Deputy "A"--
THE COURT: Uh-huh.
JUROR NO. 1489: I brought it to his attention and he said we don't have the manpower to go down to use the steam, but over on the south end where the video room is, if you watch a video in there from 7:30 to 9:30, the video is usually over so the deputy that was in that room is no longer needed in there because you close that room, so that frees him up. Like last night I watched a movie and when the movie was over at 9:30, then the deputy went in the phone room, so you had two deputies in there, so if someone wanted to go to the steam room, that would free that deputy up.
THE COURT: So since it is available after 10:00, because it is closed to the hotel guests at 10:00 as I recall--is that correct?
JUROR NO. 1489: That is the way it was previously.
THE COURT: Yeah, okay.
JUROR NO. 1489: And once they close the video room on the south end, that freed the deputy up there, so he would either go into the phone room, and if he go into the phone room you have two deputies in the phone room and basically only one or two, sometimes nobody is in there to use it.
THE COURT: Okay. Juror no. 10, is there anything that has come to your attention that any of the jurors have discussed the facts and circumstances of the case?
JUROR NO. 1489: About the case?
THE COURT: Yeah.
JUROR NO. 1489: No.
THE COURT: Anything come to your attention that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors have already made up their mind or formed any opinions about the case?
JUROR NO. 1489: No.
THE COURT: Anything that might cause you to believe that perhaps jurors have received information regarding the case from outside sources, from sources beyond the court?
JUROR NO. 1489: No.
THE COURT: Juror no. 10, is there anything about your conflict with 353 that might cause you to not be able to render a fair verdict on this case based upon the evidence that you've heard?
JUROR NO. 1489: No, I have nothing against her, you know. As long as she leaves me alone, I have nothing against her.
THE COURT: Can you tell me who the deputies are who you feel unusually or without cause or unfairly monitor or watch the black jurors?
JUROR NO. 1489: Deputy "K", but I think he is probably under orders from Deputy "A", so "A" is usually the one that is in charge at night, as far as I know.
THE COURT: All right. Anybody else who is involved in something like that?
JUROR NO. 1489: No. "B" and "I", they just--they just seem to have--they just seem to be the type that would, I guess, run a jail cell real tight, you know. Instead of you being a juror, it is like you are convicts, you know. That was the way I perceived them earlier, but since the sergeant talked to them, they have kind of backed off.
THE COURT: Mellowed out a little?
JUROR NO. 1489: Yes.
THE COURT: Juror no. 10, is there anything else you feel you need to tell me or you want to tell me?
JUROR NO. 1489: On some of the--I think sometimes when we go on outings or if we are going, some of the jurors have the information and some don't, you know. I think that is just a matter of communication gap, whereas if the deputies are aware that we are going to go somewhere, they should disseminate the information to everyone rather than to have you find out at the last minute, you know, and then here you are half dressed or not dressed like you would care to dress. Like last Saturday--last Saturday we went on an outing and when they came around and gave out the keys that morning, they just knocked on the door and said, "Okay, here is your key," and so I had some things to do, so about ten o'clock I went to use the phone, and then after I got through using the phone I said, "What time are we going to eat?" And they said, "Well, we are going out to eat." And I said, "When are we leaving?" And they said, "Ten minutes."
THE COURT: Ten minutes?
JUROR NO. 1489: I said, "Ten minutes?" You know, "You can get dressed in a hurry." I said, "I have no problem with that" and I went to knock on a couple other juror's doors and they didn't even know we were going anywhere.
THE COURT: Okay. This case is taking a little longer than I thought it was going to take. We are going a little slower pace. It looks to me like July or August. How does that sound to you?
JUROR NO. 1489: Sound all right to me. I'm retiring next year anyway.
THE COURT: Okay. You may already be retired. All right. No. 10, first of all, I apologize to you for taking so long to get back to you on that note that you sent me, but I've got to tell you, it struck me as not being something real important that I had to deal with at that time, but you should feel free to write me any notes about anything that comes to your attention that you think I ought to know about. And if it is an emergency, write on the note that "I need to talk to you, it is an emergency," and I will drop whatever I'm doing and talk to you, otherwise I will try to get back to you within a day of receiving the note.
JUROR NO. 1489: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: Okay?
JUROR NO. 1489: I think we--I guess it is just--I know there is a lot of tension I guess with everybody and this is a situation where a lot of us have never been into before, you know, so there is a lot of different personalities that you have to deal with, you know, and some can just roll with the punches easier than others. I think basically that is what it boils down to.
THE COURT: Miss Clark, Mr. Cochran?
MR. COCHRAN: I think that is it.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you very much, Juror no. 10. I'm going to order you, don't discuss this with any of the other jurors.
JUROR NO. 1489: All right.
THE COURT: Thank you, sir.
(Jurors no. 1489 exits chambers.)
THE COURT: Okay. We are going to take our recess for the afternoon at this time.
MS. CLARK: Great.
THE COURT: Order you guys back at one o'clock sharp.
MR. COCHRAN: Okay.
THE COURT: Sharp.
MS. CLARK: Great.
THE COURT: We are going to go until we finish.
(At 11:52 A.M. the noon recess was taken until 1:30 P.M. of the same day.)
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, APRIL 19, 1995 1:05 P.M.
Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge
APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)
(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.) (Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)
(The following proceedings were held in camera:)
(Juror no. 63 enters chambers.)
THE CLERK: Juror no. 63.
THE COURT: 63, would you have a seat. Good afternoon. How are you?
JUROR NO. 63: Good, thanks.
THE COURT: Good. If you recall--
JUROR NO. 63: Loyola. Sorry.
THE COURT: If you recall, about the day before yesterday, I mentioned that I was going to be talking to the jurors individually about some concerns that had been brought to my attention. And you should know that the law of the state of California requires that any time some allegation comes to my attention, I have to do some investigation. So that's why we're doing this. You should understand before we start that I don't necessarily believe these allegations to be true and that there is no specific allegation of any misconduct on your part. So before we get started, I just want you to have that understanding. Having said that, can you tell me if there are any conflicts between individual jurors that have come to your attention? And by that, I mean, serious conflicts that might involve any heated exchanges or any physical contact between jurors?
JUROR NO. 63: I really don't know of any physical contact. There have been a couple of situations that I have found kind of disappointing that I have heard and been witness to.
THE COURT: Tell me about those.
JUROR NO. 63: Specifically, one involved an incident where someone was trying to get to their seat and accidentally hit someone's foot and that person replied kind of negatively. They had felt that the person had done it on purpose, and that if it ever happened again, that person would be tripped or that type of thing. So--
THE COURT: Was that the incident that involved juror 353?
JUROR NO. 63: Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Which juror said that if it happened again, they would be tripped?
JUROR NO. 63: The person to my right, 1489.
THE COURT: Okay. How long ago was that?
JUROR NO. 63: This was--had to have been a couple weeks ago.
THE COURT: Are you aware of anything since then, any conflict between those two jurors, 1489 and 353?
JUROR NO. 63: I haven't been witness to anything. I don't know if anything's occurred. I haven't seen or overheard.
THE COURT: Has that pretty much been water under the bridge at this point?
JUROR NO. 63: I don't know. I can't speak for them. I don't know what their feelings are.
THE COURT: Is there anything apparent to you that would indicate that it's an on-going conflict at this point?
JUROR NO. 63: I'm sure there's tension, but I don't know if those feelings have been resolved or let go of. I'm not sure.
THE COURT: Okay. Are you aware of any similar conflict in the TV room between those two jurors?
JUROR NO. 63: There was an incident a long time ago. I mean, this was probably right when we first were here, the first couple of weeks where she accidentally bumped his chair and he responded in a similar fashion. He felt it had to have been done on purpose, that type of thing, "What are you trying to do," that type of thing. And there was another incident too not--it was relatively soon before the foot incident where we were in the--we were going into the TV room. There's a calendar posted with all the shows listed that we're going to be able to see for the evening, and he was standing there. And we were going to go in to see what was on there too, and he kind of backed in front of us and so we couldn't see. And then when he came out, he's like--he said something to the effect of--directed to 353, something to the effect of, "You're into intimidation and I'm not going to be one of those that you intimidate," or something to that effect. It was something along those lines, "I'm not going to let you push me around," that type of thing.
THE COURT: How long ago was this?
JUROR NO. 63: It was right before the foot incident. I'm not sure. So it's been within the last month or two months, somewhere in there.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any other conflicts?
JUROR NO. 63: No. Like I say, there have been situations that I have--people have made comments, that type of thing that have been kind of disappointing. I'm not sure where they're coming from. They're hard for me to understand, but, you know, those specifically come to mind.
THE COURT: All right. Give me an example of those.
JUROR NO. 63: There was another incident where one juror was complimenting another juror and expressing how nice he thought this person was and well, he was mentioning how if he had an opportunity for--to get remarried, have a father, he would have liked this person to have been his father, that type of situation. The person said, "Well, I really wish I could believe that, but I can't believe that. I don't believe what you're saying," something to that type of effect. And I was kind of shocked that the person was taking this as it was coming straight from the person's heart and this person couldn't--felt that there was something behind it or it wasn't true, that type of thing. So--
THE COURT: Have you observed anything that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct among the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 63: No.
THE COURT: You use the phone room quite often, correct?
JUROR NO. 63: Yes.
THE COURT: Has there ever been an incident where you used the phone room and the sheriff's deputies haven't been there for--they've stopped monitoring or they didn't make the phone call for you?
JUROR NO. 63: There may have been one time where they walked out of the room for a few brief seconds to open another door or that type of thing, but that's--I mean, I can recall like one time, but it was just--it was very brief.
THE COURT: Has there ever been an instance where the deputies in the phone room were playing cards and rather than interrupt the card game, they told you just go ahead and make a call?
JUROR NO. 63: There may have been one time. One time.
THE COURT: Do you recall who the deputies were that time?
JUROR NO. 63: No.
THE COURT: During the family visitations, has there ever been an incident where you felt the sheriffs were not adequately monitoring the activities of the visitors?
JUROR NO. 63: No.
THE COURT: Have you seen any conduct by the sheriffs that you would characterize as promoting any racial tensions between the jurors?
JUROR NO. 63: Can you repeat that?
THE COURT: Have you seen or observed any conduct by the sheriff's department that you would interpret as trying to promote racial tension between the jurors?
JUROR NO. 63: No.
THE COURT: Has it come to your attention that there's a possibility that your room at the hotel has been searched without your permission?
JUROR NO. 63: Has it come to my attention that that's happened? No.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any indications of special treatment by the sheriff's department of any juror or groups of jurors?
JUROR NO. 63: No.
THE COURT: Have there been any incidents that you're aware of regarding shopping outings?
JUROR NO. 63: Regarding shopping outings?
THE COURT: Special treatment of jurors or groups of jurors with regards to the shopping outings?
JUROR NO. 63: No.
THE COURT: Has there been any problem regarding the assignment of gym time or facilities?
JUROR NO. 63: Well, we have our own equipment now. So I don't know what--I mean, everyone has access to it all night long. So--
THE COURT: How is that working out?
JUROR NO. 63: Great as far as I can tell. I mean, you can go in there any time and work out. So--
THE COURT: Is the equipment okay?
JUROR NO. 63: Uh-huh. It's great.
THE COURT: Has there been any special privileges or use of the phones by anybody? Anybody get special privileges as far as phone usage is concerned?
JUROR NO. 63: No.
THE COURT: Any special treatment regarding the availability of videotapes?
JUROR NO. 63: No.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any times where any of the jurors have discussed the facts and circumstances of the case?
JUROR NO. 63: No.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any indications that any of the jurors have formed opinions about the case already?
JUROR NO. 63: Not that I'm aware of.
THE COURT: Any indication that any of your fellow jurors or yourself for that matter have received any information concerning the case from any source other than within the courtroom?
JUROR NO. 63: Not about the case specifically. I know that there has been some talk about allegations that have been made toward a certain person.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 63: Well, I guess it was brought up that there was something about the foot incident that was made public somehow.
THE COURT: Do you know how that information came back to the jury?
JUROR NO. 63: No. I assume someone told someone who told someone.
THE COURT: How did that come to your attention?
JUROR NO. 63: Because people were talking about it.
THE COURT: Do you recall who was talking about it?
JUROR NO. 63: It was--it was pretty--well, no.
THE COURT: What's the feelings amongst the jurors about this foot incident?
JUROR NO. 63: I think they're upset because it was something very--it was accidental, and for it to have been blown into something that had no intention of being, you know, it's--I guess it's scary, number one, that it can be taken the wrong way and made public. And if something was made out of it that wasn't, you know, I guess that's--actually to me that is, it's kind of frightening that something would be blown that way out of proportion. I don't--I mean, it's not true, whatever, you know, if that's the way it was perceived. I mean, it's--it's thought of not to have been the case that it was meant to--it was not for the purpose or meant to hurt somebody or that type of thing, was a total accident on--
THE COURT: I'm more concerned at this point about how it came up, that this is something out in the public. I mean, do you have any--do you recall with any specifics as to who was discussing this?
JUROR NO. 63: Like I said, I mean, it seemed to be known by a lot of people.
THE COURT: All right. Is there anything else you think you need to tell me or you want to tell me about?
JUROR NO. 63: No.
THE COURT: All right. It looks to me like we're going a little slower than we had anticipated and may not wind up the trial until July or August. How do you feel about that?
JUROR NO. 63: It's a long time.
THE COURT: Do you think you can hang in there with us?
JUROR NO. 63: I'll do my best and it's hard to foresee that far into the future. It's a long road, take one day at a time.
THE COURT: How are things going?
JUROR NO. 63: They're going well. I mean, I don't think any of us knew what we were getting into or how this would all, you know, proceed, but I mean, I think things are going well considering the circumstances and how we're living and, you know, that type of thing.
THE COURT: How are things over at the hotel as far as the physical facilities are concerned?
JUROR NO. 63: They're--I mean, the rooms are nice and everything. I mean, I think it's hard not being able to go home and see your family and friends and, you know, whenever you want, that type of thing. But I think we're dealing with it for the most part and I guess--I mean, I personally am just trying to take it a day at a time and--
THE COURT: Anything I can do to make it a better experience for you? And I don't mean to put you on the spot right now, but if you have any suggestions, feel free to jot them down and send them to me.
JUROR NO. 63: Yeah.
THE COURT: Also, you should understand I have an open door policy. So if you have a need to talk to me, you know, about anything, just give a note to the bailiff and tell him, you know, that you need to talk to me. And if you--if it's an emergency, let me know, and then I'll drop everything and talk to you. If there's anything you need to talk about, feel free to do that. If you have any suggestions, let me know. With regards to, you know, where there are going to be outings, how do the sheriffs tell you that you're going to go someplace?
JUROR NO. 63: Well, most of the time, we don't know until the very last second. Sometimes one of them will mention something previously, previous to the occasion and we'll get an idea that something is going to happen. Otherwise, it's, you know, usually the day of, that morning or something, it will be like, "Well, get ready to go somewhere around this time." Obviously on Saturdays, we know pretty much where we're going, to the courthouse, you know. But I think they try to keep it quiet as much as they can up to the last possible second. So--
THE COURT: Well, they do that for security reasons. But do you think you have enough time to get ready and go to these things?
JUROR NO. 63: Yeah. Sometimes it would be nice to know, you know, kind of exactly where we're going just so we can dress appropriately. But I mean, when we go to the beach, they say, "We're going to the beach," so we can wear shorts or whatever we want to wear. But I think sometimes in the night functions, it's nice to know, you know, actually where we're going just so if we want to dress up, that type of thing.
THE COURT: How was the last night outing?
JUROR NO. 63: Jay Leno? Great. We really enjoyed that. It was wonderful.
THE COURT: Kind of a surprise?
JUROR NO. 63: It was a huge surprise. That we had no--I mean, we were clueless. So that was great. It was really nice.
THE COURT: What does that say, the bottom one? Is that your handwriting?
MR. COCHRAN: I'm a doctor.
(A discussion was held off the record between the Court, Mr. Darden and Mr. Cochran.)
THE COURT: See, we even have sidebars here in chambers. All right. Seat no. 11, is there anything else you think we need to discuss?
JUROR NO. 63: No.
THE COURT: All right. If you have any suggestions, let us know. I'm going to order you not to discuss this with any of the other jurors.
JUROR NO. 63: I understand.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you very much.
JUROR NO. 63: Thank you.
(Juror no. 63 exits chambers.)
THE COURT: 353.
(Juror no. 353 enters chambers.)
THE CLERK: Juror 353.
THE COURT: Hi. Come on in and sit down. How are you today?
JUROR NO. 353: Pretty good.
THE COURT: Good. You're familiar with the routine.
JUROR NO. 353: Yes. I know the drill here. I have been here a couple times.
THE COURT: Allrighty. 353, this is--actually, we are going to refer to you by your seat number, seat 12. Juror no. 12, I mentioned to you all in court the day before yesterday that some concerns have been brought to my attention. And as you know by now, every time something is brought to my attention that concerns the jury and conduct of the jury, I need to conduct an investigation. And the law of the state of California requires that I do that immediately. And so this is why I'm talking to each one of the jurors individually, because the concerns that I have involve everybody. And you should understand before I start, I don't necessarily believe that these allegations are true and I'm not concerned about any individual conduct by yourself at this time. So you should be aware of that. And having said that, however, there is one specific incident that's been brought to my attention that involves you and another juror. And let me ask you about that first off. Are you aware of some incident in the television room regarding yourself and another juror, some allegation of hitting or kicking somebody?
JUROR NO. 353: Well, I know something was--see, this must have been maybe a month or so ago I guess when we were first in here. I remember sitting in a chair behind another juror, and I don't know his number, and I crossed my legs, I went like this (indicating) and I hit the back of his chair. And he turned around to me and he said--he goes something to the effect of, "You think that's real funny," or something. And I looked and there was a deputy here (indicating) and there was somebody to my side to my left and somebody else. And I looked and this guy, he said, "Yeah, you hit me in the head and now you're kicking my chair." And I said I didn't--I don't remember nothing about--I think what happened was, I rushed to the phone room and I think my coat may have--I was wearing a baggie sweater--I think must have brushed against the back of his head. And when I came in, I sat down and moved--my feet kicked the back of his chair, and I think he thought I was doing something deliberately to him.
THE COURT: How would you characterize your relationship with that juror afterwards?
JUROR NO. 353: You know, we don't--I really actually kind of stay away from him. I try to just distance myself from him.
THE COURT: Has there been any other incident regarding that same juror?
JUROR NO. 353: Couple. Let's see. Well, I remember one time--we couldn't have been here more than--I don't even think court was in session yet. And I remember there's a group of people--this is so--you know, I don't even know why we are talking about it. There's a group of people who like to watch TV in the dark and kind of quiet, you know, like a regular movie type thing, you know, they like the curtains drawn, they don't like any noise, no chewing, and then there's a group of people that'll sit there and crochet, talk and eat and you know. So within the relatively short period of time--and I was talking to somebody next to me. I was saying something like, oh, how stupid, you know, I'm sure. I bet you the person shows up and he's still alive or something like that. And he comes forward and he says, "You know, you're just like my first wife. She used to talk through the TV shows too," or something like that. And so I thought he was kidding. But then later on, he raised his hand and he went like this, kind of like closing a fist (indicating). And I thought, well, what was that supposed to be, and he said, "My father used to do that. That means you are supposed to be quiet," you know, open fist, and close it, you're supposed to be quiet. So after that--
THE COURT: Actually that's a hand gesture they teach in the boy scouts.
JUROR NO. 353: Is that what that is?
THE COURT: That means circle up, come to attention, be quiet, listen for direction. The scoutmaster used to do that. That's what that is.
JUROR NO. 353: I guess he wanted to be scoutmaster or something. I don't know. So we just--and then the last incident with him, let me tell you, I try to stay away. We were--in fact, I think I even wrote something down because I told Deputy "H" because he--I was coming into court and I accidentally stepped on his foot, and I sat down, and he leaned across the other juror and he said--he said, "You did that on purpose." He said, "Next time, if you do that again, I'm going to trip you."
THE COURT: What has been your contact or relationship with 1489 since that happened?
JUROR NO. 353: I don't--I don't--you know, it's only been those two few times. Like I say, I try to distance myself, you know. I try not to ride in the same van or get lined up next to him. I don't want to force, you know--I'm afraid to touch him anymore, you know, get bumped or you know, jostled in the hall or something, you know, take some kind of personal affront like I'm--
THE COURT: All right. Are you aware of any other incident, any other conflict with either yourself or any other jurors, between other jurors?
JUROR NO. 353: No. I mean, I know there are some people that like me and a couple people, few people that don't. But I figure, you know, that's--I'm not in a popularity contest here. People like me or you don't like me.
THE COURT: Is there anything about those--the incidents with 1489 that's going to cause you to--perhaps to cause you to be a fair impartial juror in this case?
JUROR NO. 353: You're asking me if I feel intimidated by him? Is that what you're trying to say?
THE COURT: No. I'm just saying, considering the whole situation, is there anything there that you feel might hamper your ability to be a fair and impartial juror?
JUROR NO. 353: No. I mean, just--
THE COURT: Has anything come to your attention, anything that you've heard or seen that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct by any of the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 353: Unprofessional? No.
THE COURT: Have you--you use the phone room with pretty regularity?
JUROR NO. 353: Couple times a night probably.
THE COURT: Is there anything--have you ever noticed any situations where the sheriffs have not made the phone call, admonish the person you're calling, log the call and done all of that in regular order?
JUROR NO. 353: I think one time I called my bank and I called a mail order catalog. I think they said, "Go ahead and make the call yourself."
THE COURT: Were they playing cards at the time?
JUROR NO. 353: I don't know. They could have been. They play cards in the phone room.
THE COURT: Do you recall what deputy told you just go ahead and make the phone call?
JUROR NO. 353: It might have been somebody--I couldn't honestly say. I don't remember who it was.
THE COURT: When--during the family visitations, has there ever been occasion where you felt the sheriffs were not adequately monitoring the visitation groups?
JUROR NO. 353: Yeah. You know, I don't really know how that's supposed to work.
THE COURT: They're supposed to be circulating around or be in a position where if they really wanted to, they could hear what you're saying.
JUROR NO. 353: Well, you know, I always get the idea they're listening to what I'm saying. Now, whether or not they're really listening, I don't know. It seems to me--I mean, I know that they're there. I mean, is that what you're saying? I mean, I don't have somebody like peering over the table listening to my conversation.
THE COURT: Ever have a sense that they're ignoring you or not in a position to make sure that nothing inappropriate is being communicated to you?
JUROR NO. 353: No. You know that they're there. I mean, at least I do. I mean, I really can't say for anybody else, but I feel that they are--their presence is there.
THE COURT: Have you--has there been anything that you observed or heard about that that would cause you to believe that any of the sheriff's deputies are promoting any racial tension between the jurors?
JUROR NO. 353: No.
THE COURT: Has there been--have you observed anything or yourself sensed anything that would indicate that your hotel room has been searched without your permission?
JUROR NO. 353: I don't know. You know, I just kind of took it for granted that they might, you know.
THE COURT: The only people who go in there are, you know, housekeeping people, but I've ordered the sheriff's department to have a deputy there every time one of the housekeeping people cleans your room to make sure nothing's moved, nothing is taken and nothing is left there.
JUROR NO. 353: Nothing left, you mean--
THE COURT: Well, newspapers or--
JUROR NO. 353: I see. Nothing.
THE COURT: To make sure the housekeeping person isn't a reporter for the National Enquirer. I mean, stuff like that.
JUROR NO. 353: You know, this is all so odd to me. I don't know how any of this is really supposed to go. So I mean, you know, I don't know. I don't know how I'm--how I even am supposed to get along with each other. I'm not really sure of our relationships. Are we close friends, are we supposed to ignore each other? I mean, I wish--I wish I knew how this was all supposed to go but, you know--
THE COURT: Well, I can't give you much guidance there other than to tell you you at least need to be civil to each other.
JUROR NO. 353: Yeah. I realize that.
THE COURT: Okay. Have you observed anything that would indicate to you that some jurors or groups of jurors are treated differently than others?
JUROR NO. 353: No. I don't think so.
THE COURT: Have you come--has there been any problem that's come to your attention regarding any of the shopping outings?
JUROR NO. 353: Shopping outings? We've only had a couple. We could use more of them. Is that what you are asking me?
THE COURT: No, but I will tell the sheriffs that you would like more shopping outings. Any problems regarding those outings?
JUROR NO. 353: Any problems? Well, I mean, you know, it's hard to shop with a group of people. I think, you know--it's difficult. I know one shopping outing, I went with three men. So we walked around--
THE COURT: Sporting goods?
JUROR NO. 353: So, you know, they wanted to stop at the CD thing and they were off, you know, wanting to move on. I wanted to go to the more intimate, the feminine products, and they were like, you know, have to--kind of, you know--you know, it's difficult. You can imagine.
THE COURT: Any problems regarding use of the gym facilities?
JUROR NO. 353: No. In fact, it's working out real--quite well. I mean, I think. I really appreciate the facilities being brought up. That was nice.
THE COURT: If you have some spare time, write a letter to the manufacturers because they donated--I don't know if you are aware, but because we were having a problem getting you gym time because of the hours at the hotel, we opened up the other room and I got the equipment--actually my staff got the equipment companies to donate the equipment.
JUROR NO. 353: I think it's working out real well. I notice usually at least one or two people in there when I go in there. There's bikes and a couple treadmills and Nordic Track and--
THE COURT: Okay. Any problems regarding any special treatment regarding the phone use? Anybody get special privileges that you're aware of?
JUROR NO. 353: No. I don't--I don't think so. I know, you know, there's always--like last night, somebody was complaining that they weren't turning over fast enough like you should be in there like every 15 minutes or something. If you're the next person in line, you should only have to wait 15 minutes and they're saying they're waiting 25 minutes, something like that. There's those types of complaints, but as far as--
THE COURT: Any special treatment that you've seen regarding the availability or scheduling of the videotapes?
JUROR NO. 353: I don't know. You know, for the last few weeks, I have tried to stay away from watching TV
THE COURT: Why is that?
JUROR NO. 353: I don't know. I work out now that the gym is being--is brought up, and I just read and make a phone call. And by that time, it's 10:30, 11 o'clock.
THE COURT: Getting enough reading material?
JUROR NO. 353: Yeah. I could use some more. You know, I had originally anticipated coming in here--I'm writing a paper for school. To graduate, I need to write this thesis paper. I had originally anticipated writing it when I was in here and I just--I thought maybe I'd have more access to the library, but that didn't seem to be.
THE COURT: What kind of books do you need?
JUROR NO. 353: I'm writing--it's--I need like professional journals. I'm writing a--what was my thesis? Male role model like in prepubescent boys and the psychological and sociological importance of a male figure between the ages of 10 and 13. So it's pretty technical. I need sociological journals, things like that.
THE COURT: Have you been able to Target the particular journals or issues that you need?
JUROR NO. 353: Yeah. I have a bibliography. I have a 50-item bibliography of specific articles that I've looked at.
THE COURT: What school is this?
JUROR NO. 353: Cal State L.A.
THE COURT: Where would these things be available?
JUROR NO. 353: I don't know. I was hoping--because a lot of things aren't available at the local universities, you almost have to go to like UCLA. They don't have a lot of professional journals. So I was hoping, you know, just--the central library would probably have it.
THE COURT: Well, the university research library they opened at UCLA is probably the best research library in southern California.
JUROR NO. 353: Yeah, it is.
THE COURT: Probably the 18th best is the one down the street here.
JUROR NO. 353: Yeah. It's great. This local library looks shabby.
THE COURT: Where is your bibliography?
JUROR NO. 353: It's at home. Not at home. Please. It's at the hotel. I do not want to consider that home. I slip up every once in a while.
THE COURT: Why don't you make that available to me through the sheriff's deputies and give me a priority, 1 through 10, or the first 10.
JUROR NO. 353: Oh, that would be great.
THE COURT: I'll see if I can get somebody over at the URL to make us a photocopy of those, assuming they're not too big.
JUROR NO. 353: God, that would be wonderful.
THE COURT: We'll see.
JUROR NO. 353: I don't even have to do the--if I could just--
THE COURT: I won't do it. One of the--we refer to them as the busy bees will take care of that for me. Have you become aware of anybody discussing the case, any of the jurors discussing the facts and circumstances about the case or any of the witnesses?
JUROR NO. 353: No. I've learned my lesson. I don't--I don't talk about the case and I don't allow anybody to talk to me about the case.
THE COURT: Has anybody tried to talk to you about it?
JUROR NO. 353: No.
THE COURT: Has it come--have you formed the impression or become aware that any of your other fellow jurors or yourself have already formed opinions about the case?
JUROR NO. 353: I don't believe so. I know I haven't. I can't personally talk for anyone else.
THE COURT: Nothing has come to your attention that would indicate that?
JUROR NO. 353: No.
THE COURT: How about, has anybody received to your knowledge any information about the case from sources outside of the courtroom?
JUROR NO. 353: No. I don't believe so. Nobody that--
THE COURT: How's your stamina these days? One day at a time?
JUROR NO. 353: Absolutely. I take one day at a time. That's--
THE COURT: We are looking at a trial that's going slower than anticipated as you probably figured out. We're probably talking about July or August. How does that strike you?
JUROR NO. 353: Sounds better than what I had anticipated in my mind. Almost sounds good right now. You know, I just--you know, I've been in here before. You guys all know, you know. I miss my home. I miss my family, you know. It's hard. It is difficult, and especially sitting in there today was like the pits because you're in here, you don't know what's going on in here, some dark-aged torture or something. People come out all glassy-eyed like wow.
THE COURT: And the Judge--
JUROR NO. 353: I'm afraid to go in there.
THE COURT: And the Judge said not to talk about it.
JUROR NO. 353: Nobody is saying anything.
THE COURT: All right. Okay. Well, see, it's not as bad as you thought.
JUROR NO. 353: No. Actually got some things off my chest I guess.
THE COURT: I want you to know that, you know, you should feel free to write me notes at any time if there's something that you think I need to know or something that--problem that I need to address. If it's an emergency, write down that it's an emergency, and I'll drop everything and try to communicate with you. Otherwise, I'll try to get back to you as soon as I can. But, you know, there are dozens of other things going on in this case besides just what goes on--
JUROR NO. 353: No. I will write you a note, and I have.
THE COURT: You don't strike me as being bashful.
JUROR NO. 353: No, I'm not.
THE COURT: Anything else you feel you need to tell me or you want to tell me?
JUROR NO. 353: So many things. Given the opportunity, I'm lost for words. No, not really. I think--I don't know. I just--no. I guess not really. But if I think of something--
THE COURT: If you think of something, let me know.
JUROR NO. 353: I'll give you a note.
THE COURT: Mr. Cochran.
(A discussion was held off the record between the Court, Mr. Darden and Mr. Cochran.)
THE COURT: Has anything come to your attention about the news media attention to you?
JUROR NO. 353: Good idea. Yeah.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 353: My husband called, was it a few nights ago, and he was--you know, sounded really upset, and he's like, "I don't know whether I should tell you or not." Well, of course, when somebody says, "I don't want to tell you," it's begging a question, "Well, tell me what?" He says, "Well, I don't know." I said, "Well, tell me now," you know. So he says, "Well, somebody showed up at your job," and he said, "I don't know what happened. Your supervisor called and she said that they were going to write a statement and say that nobody was to talk. If the news media showed up at work, that nobody was to give them your name," or something like, "This is ridiculous," you know. I mean, I know how they found out because I remember during the voir dire process, I said I worked for the phone company and then I remember telling them I worked on rampart. And anybody, even the news media could probably figure out, go down on rampart, find the phone company on rampart.
THE COURT: Yeah. That's one of the unfortunate things about the news media. They can, when they have nothing else to do, set about trying to identify who the jurors are. Do you have any concern about that?
JUROR NO. 353: Well, you know--
THE COURT: Is that going to affect your ability to be a fair and impartial juror in this case? I mean, that's the bottom line.
JUROR NO. 353: Right. Absolutely. I'll tell you something about myself. If I thought that something was going to affect me, that I wouldn't be able to--would bias me or prejudice me in some way, I would immediately dismiss myself. I mean, I think that that probably would be the most heinous thing, to sit here and, you know, feel that I couldn't be impartial. For me, I don't care. You're going to find a fairly mundane life. They're not going to be able to--I mean, what are they going to do? I work at the phone company. I don't think that would somehow--
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR NO. 353: But, you know, I worry if something--I have a 14-year old son, you know. I would--
THE COURT: It would thrill me to death though if you would--that communication from your husband is a borderline whether or not it's appropriate.
JUROR NO. 353: What should he do?
THE COURT: He should contact me.
JUROR NO. 353: Okay.
THE COURT: And say, "I need to communicate with my wife about something. This is what it is."
JUROR NO. 353: All right.
THE COURT: And then I have to decide if it's appropriate.
JUROR NO. 353: Call the emergency number or--
THE COURT: No. Tell the--have him call the bailiffs. And they have access--the reason I wear my phone pager is because the sheriffs have to track me down 24 hours a day about anything that goes on.
JUROR NO. 353: I have that number there. I have a list of three numbers. I have Dierdra's number on there.
THE COURT: Either Dierdra or the sheriffs can get in touch with me at any time. But your husband should be communicating that sort of thing to me first.
JUROR NO. 353: Okay.
THE COURT: It's not exactly the facts and circumstances regarding the case, but it's, you know--it's close because it involves--
JUROR NO. 353: Absolutely. Well, you know, I think he had some reservations.
THE COURT: Have you told anybody else about this?
JUROR NO. 353: Well, you know, after he told me that a couple weeks ago, no. 19 told me that that had happened to him. So when it happened to me, I didn't think it was so unusual.
THE COURT: That the press had gone down there?
JUROR NO. 353: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR NO. 353: I mean, I don't know. You may want to handle this. I don't know. My name begins with a B. Maybe they're going a, b, c, D. I don't know. You know, I don't--
THE COURT: Did your husband communicate with you concerning the--any of this kicking, kicking or bumping or stepping on shoes business?
JUROR NO. 353: No.
THE COURT: Have you told him about that?
JUROR NO. 353: I told him--I think the day it happened, I think he was visiting here and I think I told him that I stepped on somebody's feet and they thought that I did it on purpose. That was the only thing that I ever told him.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Anything else? All right. No. 12, thank you very much. I'm going to order you not to discuss--you know the drill. Don't discuss this with anybody else. Your lips are sealed. Have a nice day.
JUROR NO. 353: You too. Thank you, guys.
(Juror no. 353 exits chambers.)
(Juror no. 2457 enters chambers.)
THE CLERK: 2457.
THE COURT: 2457, good afternoon. Why don't you have a seat right there, please, 2457. You too, Mr. Darden. Thank you.
MR. DARDEN: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: 2457, how are you today?
JUROR NO. 2457: Fine, thank you.
THE COURT: Good. I'm going to refer to you by your seat number, no. 13, 2457.
JUROR NO. 2457: Okay. Sure.
THE COURT: If you recall, the day before yesterday when we were in court, I mentioned to the jury that some matters had been brought to my attention that I was going to have to talk to you about, and I've decided that I need to talk to all of you one at a time and just decided to stop the presentation of the evidence and do this now because it's important and I want to get it out of the way. I want you to understand that the law of the state of California requires that any time concerns like the ones I'm going to discuss with you are brought to my attention, that I have to immediately conduct an investigation; and that's what I'm doing today. I want you to understand that just because these are allegations doesn't mean that I necessarily believe them to be true, but I am required to look into them. Secondly, there's no indication or allegation that you yourself have engaged in any misconduct, and I want you to rest assure that's not the focus of my inquiry today just to put you at ease because I understand it's not comfortable to come in here in this situation and be asked questions. But I just want you to understand I'm not--there's no allegation that you've done anything wrong. Okay?
JUROR NO. 2457: Sure.
THE COURT: First of all, thanks for hanging in so long with us. We appreciate that. Juror no. 13, are you aware of any conflict between any of the other jurors? And by that, I mean, a serious conflict, anything that would be indicated by heated arguments or any physical contact between jurors?
JUROR NO. 2457: No.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any kicking or hitting incident that took place in one of the TV rooms?
JUROR NO. 2457: I wasn't there.
THE COURT: Had you heard about it?
JUROR NO. 2457: If it went on, I wasn't there.
THE COURT: Have you heard anything about any stepping or kicking incidents within the jury box itself?
JUROR NO. 2457: No.
THE COURT: Has anything come to your attention that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct by any of the sheriff's deputies who are the bailiffs?
JUROR NO. 2457: No.
THE COURT: You use the phone room from time to time, correct?
JUROR NO. 2457: Yes.
THE COURT: Has there ever been occasion where you made a phone call and the sheriff's department weren't there to log the call, admonish the person you're talking to and then dial for you and then stay there in the room? Has there ever been an incident where the deputies have been playing cards and told you, "Go ahead, make any phone call you like"?
JUROR NO. 2457: No.
THE COURT: During the family visitations, has there ever been occasion where the deputies have just sort of disappeared and not been available to monitor any of the activities?
JUROR NO. 2457: No.
THE COURT: Has there been any conduct by the sheriff's department that would cause you to believe that any of them are trying to promote any racial tension between the jurors?
JUROR NO. 2457: No.
THE COURT: Juror no. 13, has anything happened while you've been a juror that would indicate that your hotel room has been searched without your permission?
JUROR NO. 2457: You mean have the room been searched? I can't really say.
THE COURT: I mean, anything that would cause you to suspect that?
JUROR NO. 2457: Well, one--I know a couple of times, I've gone in there and like I put the suitcase one way, it be another way. But nothing ever missed or nothing like that.
THE COURT: All right. When the housekeeping crew comes through for, you know, the standard maid service every day--
JUROR NO. 2457: Yes.
THE COURT: --I've ordered that the sheriff's department have a deputy with the housekeeping crew when they come through to make sure that they don't take anything and that they don't leave anything that's--
JUROR NO. 2457: Most of the time, they be around.
THE COURT: That's my order. They do that because I told them to do that. I mean, that's what happens every day. Is that your knowledge of what goes on?
JUROR NO. 2457: Yes.
THE COURT: Juror no. 13, has anything come to your attention that might indicate that the sheriff's department are giving special treatment or different treatment to any particular juror or group of jurors?
JUROR NO. 2457: No.
THE COURT: To your knowledge, have there been any problems regarding any of the shopping outings?
JUROR NO. 2457: No. I never had no problem.
THE COURT: Any problems regarding the use of the gym facilities?
JUROR NO. 2457: No.
THE COURT: Any special treatment that anybody gets regarding the phone use?
JUROR NO. 2457: No.
THE COURT: Any special treatment regarding the availability or scheduling of the videotapes?
JUROR NO. 2457: No.
THE COURT: Juror no. 13, has it come to your attention that any of the other jurors have discussed the facts and circumstances of the case?
JUROR NO. 2457: No.
THE COURT: No. That's a big no no. Okay. Have you formed the impression that any of the other jurors have already formed opinions about the case?
JUROR NO. 2457: I don't think so because we don't talk.
THE COURT: Okay. Has it come to your attention that any of the jurors or yourself included received any information about the case from any sources outside of the courtroom?
JUROR NO. 2457: No, we don't. How can we? We don't see nobody.
THE COURT: Juror no. 13, is there anything you feel you ought to tell me or you want to tell me?
JUROR NO. 2457: I have no problems.
THE COURT: Okay. Juror no. 13, in case you do, please understand that I have an open-door policy. If you need to talk to me, I'm here to talk to you. I have a phone pager that the sheriffs can get in touch with me 24 hours a day. If you need to talk to me, just write a note, give it to the bailiff, say you need to talk to the Judge. If it's an emergency, let them know, and I'll get to you right away. How are the activities so far?
JUROR NO. 2457: Fine.
THE COURT: Any suggestions? I heard you liked the band a lot.
JUROR NO. 2457: Oh, yes. I heard you.
THE COURT: My sources tell me you liked the band a lot.
JUROR NO. 2457: Well, we all did. Most of us anyway.
THE COURT: Good. Any suggestions for any different activities, outings, anything like that?
JUROR NO. 2457: Me, I'm fine.
THE COURT: You're fine. Has anything ever happened while you were on one of the buses, one of our vans, that anybody indicated any problem sitting next to you?
JUROR NO. 2457: No.
THE COURT: And you--
JUROR NO. 2457: Not that my knowing of.
THE COURT: Do you feel you have any problems with any of the other jurors?
JUROR NO. 2457: Me?
THE COURT: Yeah.
JUROR NO. 2457: No.
THE COURT: If you have any suggestions or any special needs, you need some extra books or something or you have special requests like for videos or something like that, let us know.
JUROR NO. 2457: Thank you.
THE COURT: How are the outings? Are they okay?
JUROR NO. 2457: Everything's been fine.
THE COURT: How is the food?
JUROR NO. 2457: At the hotel, hmm. I don't eat.
THE COURT: Okay. How is the food here at the courthouse?
JUROR NO. 2457: Fine.
THE COURT: Juror no. 13, the trial seems to be going a little slower than I thought it would and we may be looking at winding this up in July or August. How does that strike you?
JUROR NO. 2457: No problem.
THE COURT: Okay. I just want to make sure you and I are not here at Christmas.
JUROR NO. 2457: Well, we be here till Christmas, we here.
THE COURT: No. 13, thank you very much. You are ordered don't discuss this with any of the jurors.
JUROR NO. 2457: Sure.
THE COURT: Thank you very much.
(Juror no. 2457 exits chambers.)
(Juror no. 165 enters chambers.)
THE CLERK: Juror 165.
THE COURT: Good afternoon, sir.
JUROR NO. 165: Good afternoon.
THE COURT: How's everything this afternoon, sir?
JUROR NO. 165: Good, sir.
THE COURT: Good. Glad to see it. You're always well-dressed. I'm always impressed by that. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it.
JUROR NO. 165: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: This is certainly the best-dressed jury I've ever seen. Number--I am going to refer to you by your seat number, no. 14.
JUROR NO. 165: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: All right? No. 14, if you recall, the day before yesterday, I mentioned to the entire jury in the courtroom that some matter had been brought to my attention that I needed to look into. And the law here in the state of California requires that when an allegation is made that concerns conduct with the jury, I need to investigate that. And that's what I'm doing right now. I want you to understand that the fact that allegations have been made doesn't mean that I necessarily believe those allegations to be true, one. And two, there is no allegation of any misconduct on your part. I want you to understand that before we start and I just want to ask you some questions about four specific areas and see if you know anything about any of these, okay?
JUROR NO. 165: All right, sir.
THE COURT: Juror no. 14, are you aware of any conflict between individual jurors? And by that, I mean, serious conflicts, anything that would be indicated by heated words or any physical contact between jurors?
JUROR NO. 165: Not to my knowledge.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any kicking or hitting incident that took place in the TV room a couple months back?
JUROR NO. 165: I didn't see it myself, but I was told that it happened.
THE COURT: Okay. I'm more interested in things that you heard or seen yourself.
JUROR NO. 165: Well, I heard it, yeah.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any incident that took place in the jury box recently?
JUROR NO. 165: No, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. Are you aware of any other conflict, any serious conflicts between any jurors?
JUROR NO. 165: Not serious. I've observed some misunderstanding between jurors.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 165: One juror accused another--let me see what it was. It was sometime ago. Let's see. I can't recall right now--excuse me--what it was. But anyway, they had a misunderstanding over--one accusation--one had made the accusation. Party that he made it to denied it, but I can't recall just what it was about. Minor thing, I thought anyway.
THE COURT: Do you know if those two jurors have resolved that difference?
JUROR NO. 165: I would think so. I don't see any animosity between them.
THE COURT: This was quite some time ago?
JUROR NO. 165: Yes.
THE COURT: Juror no. 14, have you observed anything that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct by any of the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 165: I don't know whether you could characterize it as unprofessional, but been some conduct where I wouldn't appreciate it.
THE COURT: If you don't appreciate it, then it might not be professional conduct on their part. Can you tell me what you mean by that?
JUROR NO. 165: Well, there's been--since we first entered in here on January the 11th, the stage was set for animosity between us and it was set by this. We went into the dining room, and evidently all of the non-blacks must have prearranged it. They got into the front of the line. Every one of them sit at a table, all of those people at one table, and seemed like there was animosity continuously after that.
THE COURT: Is that still a problem?
JUROR NO. 165: Here recently, I'd say within the past two weeks, they've changed their attitude.
THE COURT: That's very troubling. Is there anything about this situation that you think is going to make it hard to get a just and fair verdict out of this case?
JUROR NO. 165: I wouldn't think so.
THE COURT: Is there anything you think I can do to change that situation?
JUROR NO. 165: Well now, for the first two months--let me carry it way back. For the first two months, it seemed as though there was some hatred among us, and the person that really perpetuated it in the beginning, he got eliminated because he and I had it.
THE COURT: Which juror was that?
JUROR NO. 165: I don't know his name, but I don't know his number. White-headed fellow, white hair. And he was awfully arrogant when he came in here and he refuted it and eventually he privately apologized to me privately. Then afterwards, he apologized to the whole group. That was before he was eliminated.
THE COURT: Has that sort of changed the atmosphere since he's been gone?
JUROR NO. 165: Yes, it has.
THE COURT: No. 14, have you--you use the phone room from time to time?
JUROR NO. 165: Yes.
THE COURT: Has there ever been occasion where the sheriff's department haven't appropriately logged the number that you're calling, called the person, admonished them not to talk about the case and then given you the phone to talk?
JUROR NO. 165: No, not with me.
THE COURT: Has there ever been occasion where during the family visitations that they have not appropriately monitored the visitors?
JUROR NO. 165: Appropriately monitored visitors? I haven't observed.
THE COURT: Have the sheriff's department done anything in your opinion to promote any of the racial tension amongst the jurors?
JUROR NO. 165: Yes.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 165: First of all, there was one TV room and they made a second one. Why, I don't know. So it seems like they, all the non-blacks went to that second one, and they quit putting refreshments and knickknacks in the original TV room that we blacks was using. And I asked Sergeant "J" about it, and I had asked him three different times, and he eventually changed it.
THE COURT: I think what happened, they put--didn't they put the table in-between the two rooms?
JUROR NO. 165: Well, here about two or three days ago. Last week I mean. But when we first come, this happened.
THE COURT: I have to tell you, one of the problems was, you know, I pay for that.
JUROR NO. 165: You do?
THE COURT: I sign the order. The county pays for all of that.
JUROR NO. 165: That's the excuse he was giving me.
THE COURT: So that's why I ordered one table between the two TV rooms, because I can't pay for two because you won't believe what they're charging me, a buck and a half for every one of those sodas.
JUROR NO. 165: Is that right?
THE COURT: Okay. Any other problems regarding that?
JUROR NO. 165: No. They've corrected it.
THE COURT: Okay. Have the sheriff's deputies done anything else that you feel promotes the racial tension?
JUROR NO. 165: Well, now they show a little difference at times, double standard in them too frequently.
THE COURT: Tell me about that, when you say double standard.
JUROR NO. 165: Well, for example, we go out walking out by the *********--and naturally, I want them to do their job, do it equally. They stay right around we blacks and the non-blacks walk wherever they want to. Don't even pay them any attention, you see.
THE COURT: Is that still ongoing?
JUROR NO. 165: Sometimes, yes.
THE COURT: Okay. Anything else?
JUROR NO. 165: Nothing of any importance I don't think.
THE COURT: All right.
JUROR NO. 165: Of a serious nature.
THE COURT: Well, anything that you feel is promoting racial animosity between the jurors, I want to know about it, even if you think--
JUROR NO. 165: I be fair about it and I wouldn't make up anything. If I see something, I'll let you know.
THE COURT: Okay. I want--
JUROR NO. 165: I had been told--why I hadn't is--why I did not, I was told I couldn't come to you, but--for instance, supplying the TV room, that you had nothing to do with it. So that's why I didn't come to you.
THE COURT: No. I want you to know I'm the one in charge of all of that over there.
JUROR NO. 165: I was told that nothing you could do about it.
THE COURT: There's a lot I can do about it. What I want you to do, no. 14, if you feel there's something I need to know, feel free to write me a note about it. If you want to talk to me personally about it, all you need to do is write a note, give it to the bailiff and just put in the note that you want to talk to me. If it's an emergency, I'll get to you right away.
JUROR NO. 165: All right, sir.
THE COURT: If it's, you know, normal business, then I'll get to you within a day or two. You know, there's dozens of other things going on--
JUROR NO. 165: Yes.
THE COURT: --in the case. Juror no. 14, have you observed anything that would indicate to you that some jurors are being treated differently from others other than the incident that you've just told me about?
JUROR NO. 165: I haven't observed anything.
THE COURT: Has there been any problems regarding the shopping outings?
JUROR NO. 165: I'm glad you brought that up. That was another incident when we're in there shopping. All the non-blacks don't have anybody watching them. They stay right around us.
THE COURT: Okay. Has there been any problem with the gym facilities?
JUROR NO. 165: I don't go to the gym. So I wouldn't know.
THE COURT: Does anybody got any special treatment regarding the phone usage?
JUROR NO. 165: Now, I am going to be honest. I think there's one lady in there that gets special treatment. I don't know her number.
THE COURT: Which--can you describe her?
JUROR NO. 165: She's short, real short. I think she has black hair I believe. I'm not sure. I could call her name.
THE COURT: Do you know her name?
JUROR NO. 165: Yeah. Juror no. 353.
THE COURT: Okay. She receives special--
JUROR NO. 165: It appears to me now personally.
THE COURT: Okay. What have you observed that leads you to that conclusion?
JUROR NO. 165: Well, anything she asks for special, she seems to get it. All of us ask for things, we're denied.
THE COURT: Such as what have you requested that you've been denied?
JUROR NO. 165: For instance, that fruit and knickknacks in that TV room. I had to do it for about three different times I complained about it before anything was done about it.
THE COURT: Okay. Can you think of anything else that would lead you to believe there's special treatment?
JUROR NO. 165: Well, nothing of any serious nature. Maybe some minor, something I don't even pay attention to.
THE COURT: Can you tell me who the deputies are who have been causing these problems for you?
JUROR NO. 165: Well now, I wouldn't know who I accuse of not getting the knickknacks to the TV room for us, just having it in the one room.
THE COURT: Who told you I couldn't do anything about it or wouldn't do anything about it?
JUROR NO. 165: I believe that--I'd hate to say because I can't recall which one it was. Either "D" or "B". I don't know. One of them.
THE COURT: All right. Juror no. 14, is there anything that you've observed or heard that would indicate to you that any of the jurors have discussed the facts and circumstances of the case?
JUROR NO. 165: No. Uh-uh. I haven't heard any of them discuss the case.
THE COURT: Anything that you've heard or observed that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors have already formed opinions about the case?
JUROR NO. 165: I haven't heard anything, no.
THE COURT: Anything that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors are receiving information about the case from sources outside of the courtroom?
JUROR NO. 165: No, because I haven't heard anybody say anything.
THE COURT: You mention that Juror no. 353 had received--indicated that when she asked for something, she tends to get it. Can you tell me what kind of things she's asked for that she's gotten, if you know?
JUROR NO. 165: Well, for instance, the shopping at Target, all of a sudden, she comes up to go to Ross', you know, and immediately she--in other words, she immediately get anything she ask. They granted that. And she seems to be a self-appointed leader. It seem she wants to be leader for all of us. That's the impression I get personally. I don't know. I could be wrong.
THE COURT: Is there anything about the way you feel the jurors have been handled in general and you in particular that you think might cause a problem in being able to reach a fair verdict in this case just based on the evidence and the law?
JUROR NO. 165: No. But I told you the impression I got. For the first month and a half, it was pretty rough and it seemed as though it was rough on the part of the jurors where animosity was, but it seemed as though most of the deputies was going along with the non-black side, you know. That's the way it seemed to me. And I thought this was a law of justice. And then the deputies themselves seemed to be--happen to perpetrate or promote injustice. That's the way I felt personally. I don't know how anybody else feel, but that's the way I feel personally.
THE COURT: How do you feel about it today?
JUROR NO. 165: It's better now. I don't know what caused it. It's better. It started getting better I say two, three weeks ago maybe.
THE COURT: Well, I am going to give you a job, no. 14. I want you to report back to me in a week, and you tell me if things are getting--continuing to get better.
JUROR NO. 165: Well, sir, I promise you I be truthful about it. I wouldn't make up anything.
THE COURT: No, I understand that. I respect your wisdom and your ability to tell me the truth about these things, and I'm going to ask you in a week or so and I'll check back with you and see if everything is still going--
JUROR NO. 165: I wouldn't worry your time with any little trivial stuff. Have to be something of serious nature here.
THE COURT: Like I said, I want you to feel free to write me a note and ask to talk to me.
JUROR NO. 165: All right, sir.
THE COURT: See, I don't know about what goes on over there unless somebody tells me.
JUROR NO. 165: I see.
THE COURT: So I assume everything is going okay unless I hear differently.
JUROR NO. 165: Sure.
THE COURT: So please do let me know. Let me ask you another question. It seems to me that the trial is going a little slower than we had anticipated and may not wind up until July or August.
JUROR NO. 165: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: How does that strike you, sir?
JUROR NO. 165: Strikes me all right. I'm retired, so--
THE COURT: All right. Okay. Juror no. 14, is there anything else that you think you need to tell me or you want to tell me?
JUROR NO. 165: Well, I just wanted to say that I've made statements to Sergeant "J" that I thought you was a fair person, and I appreciate you giving me the privilege and trust in me to bring you anything that I see that's wrong. I wouldn't worry your time with stuff that doesn't amount to much.
THE COURT: Believe me, the privilege is mine to have you here.
JUROR NO. 165: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: If nobody tells me, then I don't know. As you know, I'm pretty busy--
JUROR NO. 165: Sure.
THE COURT: --trying to run the trial here.
JUROR NO. 165: Sure. I think you're a workaholic myself.
THE COURT: As far as the activities are concerned, any suggestions, anything you want to suggest to us, any outings you want to suggest?
JUROR NO. 165: Well, I don't know. Do you think it would be possible for us to pick the kind of worship service to go and attend?
THE COURT: Okay. We will work on that. I've been--yeah, we will work on that. All right, sir.
JUROR NO. 165: That's ************** church.
THE COURT: I'll look into that.
JUROR NO. 165: All right, sir.
THE COURT: Maybe not this weekend. It may not be enough time for this weekend, but I'll work on it for next weekend. How does that sound?
JUROR NO. 165: Fine, sir.
THE COURT: All right. Just make sure Tasia knows about that. Will you look into that? All right. Thank you very much, sir.
JUROR NO. 165: Thank you, sir.
THE COURT: I'm going to order you don't discuss our conversation with any other juror.
JUROR NO. 165: Oh, no.
THE COURT: Thank you very much, sir.
JUROR NO. 165: Thank you, sir.
(Juror no. 165 exits chambers.)
(Juror no. 1427 enters chambers.)
THE COURT: 1427, come on in, have a seat.
JUROR NO. 1427: Thank you.
THE COURT: How are you today? How are things today?
JUROR NO. 1427: Okay.
THE COURT: All right. If you recall, the day before yesterday when we were in court, I indicated that some concerns had been brought to my attention and that I was going to need to talk to the jurors one at a time about them. And you should understand that the law here in California requires that any time any allegations of juror misconduct or any problems have been brought to the Court's attention, I have to immediately investigate those allegations.
JUROR NO. 1427: Yes.
THE COURT: I want you to understand that just because certain allegations or concerns have been raised doesn't mean that I necessarily believe them to be true. And in your case, there is no allegation that you personally have done anything wrong. So before we start, just understand that.
JUROR NO. 1427: Okay.
THE COURT: All right?
JUROR NO. 1427: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: I have four categories of questions that I need to ask you. First of all, are you aware of any conflict between individual jurors that you would consider to be serious? And by that, I mean, any heated words or any physical contact between jurors?
JUROR NO. 1427: I don't know of any physical contact. I notice hostility. I don't know how deep that hostility goes. Personally, I can only speak for my own experience. I notice just--I get along well with everyone except for just a handful of people that don't speak to me at all. I remember when this all began, I tried to talk to everyone. I'm not super outgoing, a little more on the introverted side. Yet I still make an effort. Maybe I'll compliment somebody or try to make small talk with a few people. And I notice time and time again, the same group of people I would always initiate conversation with them on at least four or five occasions, and they would just, you know, respond to me. They weren't very responsive. They wouldn't hold up their end of the conversation. I thought maybe they're shy and I just left it at that. And as time went on, I noticed at the time when these so-called meetings were starting to take place among jurors, the ones that were stopped, I noticed some hostility that I didn't know even existed. I just saw how some people would use a very negative tone of voice towards other jurors and I couldn't really understand why that was happening since I never saw any conflict before.
THE COURT: All right. The juror who organized those, quote, unquote, meetings is no longer with us, correct?
JUROR NO. 1427: Yes. He's no longer with us. But I noticed once those meetings were stopped, there were a few jurors who were kind of disappointed at the fact that these meetings were no longer going on because I remember I was one person who spoke up during that meeting and I was one of the people who said, "I don't feel comfortable with this. Can we please stop this or talk to one of the deputies as to whether or not we should be doing this at all?" And one person said, "Well, we'll see about that," or something. Somebody made a snide remark like that, and I just didn't feel comfortable after that point with some people. And I noticed time and time again, whenever I walk into a room or whenever I ride on the same van or whenever I'm in the presence of these certain individuals, conversation just stops. I mean, I--before I walked into a room, I could hear somebody laughing and hear them talking. As soon as I walk in, the conversation just took--a dead impregnable silence takes over, and I don't understand that, almost like I offend people by my mere presence and it just feels real uncomfortable. I make it a point to stay away from these people and I don't know what it is I ever did to these people to ever offend them. I never said anything to them. I've never, you know, given them any looks or nothing. I've never done anything. I don't understand why they feel that way or why they act that way towards me. And there was one incident with me and another juror. One time when I was coming up from having dinner, I was standing by a calendar that is posted up in front of the front TV room and one juror was standing looking at the calendar and he was--I mean, I thought he was looking to see what movie was going to be on for that one night. And then he was just standing there and he was talking a very long time and then he started whipping through--they have these little miniature posters of each movie showing in the future. He starts flipping through them and then starts reading the fine print. And I'm pretty sure he knew I was standing behind him. But yet he still--I was there waiting and waiting and waiting. Finally I said, "Oh, excuse me, so and so. Would you mind just moving a little to your right so I can just get to see what it is that they're playing tonight in the movie room?" And he just turned around--and it really caught me by surprise. He turned around and he started yelling at me. I'm like--I was just standing there. I didn't say a word. I was just looking at him. He's like, "Well, I'm not going to be one to get out of your way, and if you think I'm going to run from you, you're wrong." And then he just went on and on, and I couldn't understand what it was he was talking about. And I just looked at him. I was kind of stunned. I said, "Well, thank you for your cooperation," and I turned around and walked away. I just felt really--I was really surprised. I didn't know if he was reacting that way towards me. And I didn't go up to any of the deputies that night. That happened around 6:45, whenever it is we come back up from dinner.
THE COURT: How long ago was this?
JUROR NO. 1427: This was--coincidentally, same day that I was in your chambers the last time about my little privacy issue regarding a mailing label, it was that exact same day. And I was thinking I must just be having a bad day or something or he must be having a bad day, man, I just caught him on an off day, caught him on a bad day, maybe bad mood. So I let it go at that. Next day in the elevator though when we were coming into the courthouse, I was standing next to him in the elevator, and I was--you know, it's really tight, we're in really tight quarters. But he was standing next to me, and then he moves--he brushes me, he brushes me against my shoulder. And I thought, oh, he's just trying to adjust himself or catch his balance or something. And then--but then he turns to his right and he looked at three other jurors that he's close to and he smiled and they started like laughing under their breath, and then he did it again and then the third time. And each time, he would turn and like have this look on his face like he was making a joke out of it like he was pushing me around. That's how I took it. That's how I perceived it. I just didn't say anything. And after that is when I mentioned the incident to Deputy "L", because at first, I thought maybe he was having a bad day, that's why he took it out on me. But then I saw that this was a game he was playing. He was trying to--I felt like I was being intimidated, like he was trying to bully me around.
THE COURT: And which juror was that doing this?
JUROR NO. 1427: It's 1489.
THE COURT: Has there--has anything happened since then?
JUROR NO. 1427: Since then, no incidents have happened because Deputy "L" told me to stay away from him. And since then, I usually stay in my room when I'm in the hotel. I don't use the phone usually unless it's really empty. Most people put their names on the list to use the phone. I don't even put my name on the list. I go in there when there's no list, when it's completely empty. In regards to the dining area, I usually wait until I'm the last one and everybody else has gone in front of me. I just don't want to put myself in a position where a conflict could arise. And I do everything I can to stay away from him and the people that he's close to because sometimes I get these really dirty looks from him and other people and I don't understand why there's hostility there.
THE COURT: Okay. Have you seen--are you aware of any kicking or hitting incident involving other jurors in the TV room?
JUROR NO. 1427: I remember that last time at one of those so-called meetings, 1489 accused me of kicking his chair and he accused somebody else of kicking his chair as well. I don't know about any hitting going on. But I remember we were in the TV room one night and I was too far away for my legs to even reach his chair. He was sitting in the front and I was sitting a little in the back closest to the corner and then 353 was sitting right next to me, and I--I didn't notice any kicking. She got up to go use the phone and then she came back, and then I remember him turning around and saying something to the effect of, "Do you have a problem?" He just--that's the way he approaches people. He doesn't have--he doesn't use a lot of tact. And I didn't know what he was talking about, and he said something about we were kicking his chair where she--I could see maybe accidentally she might have tapped the chair he was sitting on lightly with her foot or something. And then I remember the two deputies in the room just looked at each other and they gave him this look like what's going on, why is this guy overreacting, gave each other a look.
THE COURT: Any possibility you could have kicked his chair at any point?
JUROR NO. 1427: I was sitting like where I'm sitting down and his hair must have been where the corner of your table begins here and then 353 was sitting like in this chair right here (indicating).
THE COURT: To your left?
JUROR NO. 1427: Yes. To my left.
THE COURT: So there's not?
JUROR NO. 1427: I don't remember--I mean, I don't--my legs couldn't have reached his chair. I just don't--I remember sitting still. I don't--I mean, I don't--I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it's possible, maybe it's not. I could have tapped his chair, but it wasn't something intentional, something I made it a point to do.
THE COURT: Was this the same incident you were referring to in one of those meetings that the accusation was made?
JUROR NO. 1427: Yes. Yes. Uh-huh.
THE COURT: All right. Are you aware of any physical contact incidents in the jury room itself?
JUROR NO. 1427: I remember one time we had exited the courtroom and we were waiting for the elevator. We were at the elevator platform, and I noticed there was--353 appeared to be very shaken. She looked--I knew something was wrong. She didn't have to say something. I was just looking at her and I said, "What's wrong? You look like you seen a ghost or something." And I kept on asking her, "What's wrong, what's wrong," and she just wouldn't say anything. And later, I found out that somebody threatened to trip her or something like that. She might have--somebody else said that they were in the jury room and I guess she accidentally stepped on somebody's foot and that person threatened to trip her.
THE COURT: But you didn't see that or hear that?
JUROR NO. 1427: No, I didn't see. I can't see from where I sit.
THE COURT: Okay. Number 15, which is actually what we're referring to you as at this point, have you observed anything that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct by the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 1427: No. They're very personable, but I don't think--I mean, they've never been unprofessional. They're always very personable, but they don't cross that line to where I would think they're being too chummy with the jurors or anything like that. Actually with my own experience, I don't--I've never come across that.
THE COURT: When you use the telephone room, has there ever been occasion where nobody's been there to monitor any of the phone calls?
JUROR NO. 1427: They may like--sometimes they have one deputy in the phone room. He or she may briefly step outside, call out a number and step right back in. I mean, it's like a split second. They just go out there and come right back in.
THE COURT: Have they ever allowed you to make a phone call without doing the dialing and admonishing the person on the other end?
JUROR NO. 1427: They have allowed me to dial the number myself and then grab the phone and say, so and so, admonish the person, then give me the phone.
THE COURT: Has there ever been occasion when during the family visitations where you feel the sheriffs weren't appropriately monitoring the visiting?
JUROR NO. 1427: I don't think so. They're always walking around. They're always within--you know, within a close range.
THE COURT: Okay. Has there been any conduct by the sheriffs that would cause you to believe they're trying to promote any racial tension among the jurors?
JUROR NO. 1427: Not at all. They are very friendly to all the jurors there, what I have seen, and they never--no, they've never done anything like that.
THE COURT: Has anything happened over at the hotel that would cause you to believe that your room has been searched without your permission?
JUROR NO. 1427: No.
THE COURT: Have you observed anything that would indicate to you that any juror or jurors, group of jurors are being treated differently than the others?
JUROR NO. 1427: No, not at all.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any incidents regarding shopping outings and different treatment between groups of jurors?
JUROR NO. 1427: No. One time, they divided us into a group where a group of people wanted to go to Target, the other group wanted to go to Ross first and then to Target. That's the only time they divided us, but that's about it. That's--I didn't see anything wrong with that. Everybody was in agreement with that arrangement. They asked first and everybody said yeah, that would be great.
THE COURT: All right. Are you aware of any disagreements over the use of the gym facilities?
JUROR NO. 1427: No. I don't--one time--okay. One time I was in the rear movie room, and a juror came in and she asked if they could go down to the fourth floor gym. And the deputy said, "Well, I don't know. We're understaffed. I don't know if it's possible for us to do that." And she got--she got upset. And what he did, he asked us, the people who were in the TV room if we would mind to move--to move the movie up to the front TV room. That way, he could monitor two rooms, the front TV room--and also, there's a gym on our floor. And we said, "That's fine with us." So we moved to the front TV room. And I think that enabled that juror to use the gym downstairs because it enabled another I think deputy to go down there with that juror to use the other gym. And that's really the only thing I've ever observed.
THE COURT: All right. Do you know if anybody is receiving any special access to the telephone?
JUROR NO. 1427: I don't know. Not that I know of.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any special treatment regarding the scheduling or availability of the videotapes?
JUROR NO. 1427: No. Well, they just--the deputies choose the movies and they write them on the calendar and that's how it's handled. That way, there's no disagreement about who wants to see what and there's no fighting over somebody wants to see this and somebody else wants to see something else.
THE COURT: Okay. Juror no. 15, are you aware of anything that would indicate that some of the jurors have discussed the facts and circumstances of the witnesses in this case?
JUROR NO. 1427: No. Not at all.
THE COURT: Has anything come to your attention that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors have already formed any opinions about the case?
JUROR NO. 1427: No. We don't discuss that at all.
THE COURT: Has anything come to your attention that would indicate that any of the jurors have received information about the case from outside?
JUROR NO. 1427: No, have not to my knowledge.
THE COURT: Okay. How's your stamina these days? I know this is a long process for you.
JUROR NO. 1427: I'm really--well, it's kind of hard to keep motivated and it's emotionally exhausting for myself and I think a lot of other people just not to be able to go home and see your friends, your family and being in your natural or usual surroundings. But the outings really help a lot. They really--
THE COURT: Any suggestions, recommendations for more outings, different outings?
JUROR NO. 1427: Yeah. I know some jurors would like maybe a hiking trip or I know we wrote that note to you about--
THE COURT: Skiing?
JUROR NO. 1427: Yeah. It was kind of half jokingly, half serious.
THE COURT: I have to tell you, what happened with that is, I thought about--my initial reaction was yes, but I thought about if I let you guys go skiing and two of you broke your legs, then I really would be in trouble. So I mean, that's what happened to that.
JUROR NO. 1427: I know a lot of jurors and myself feel that we're pretty much at the courthouse seven days a week. I mean, we come here Monday through Friday, then we're here Saturday for entertainment and Sundays for visiting. And a lot of people I think are getting tired of that.
THE COURT: You come here every day?
JUROR NO. 1427: Yeah. I think we'd rather be outside.
THE COURT: I'm going to try to arrange a different location for the Saturday visiting, an outside park location.
JUROR NO. 1427: Oh, you mean Sunday visiting?
THE COURT: Sunday visiting. But that's a function as much--is a function of weather and that--and I think we are going to have rain again this weekend as well. So--
JUROR NO. 1427: I see.
THE COURT: But that's something. But I want you to know that I have an open-door policy as far as the jurors are concerned. If something comes to your attention or you need to communicate with me, feel free to hand any bailiff a note saying you need to talk to me. If it's an emergency, I'll drop everything and talk to you.
JUROR NO. 1427: Okay.
THE COURT: If it's just regular business, then I can get to you within a day or two because obviously there are other things going on that I need to be concerned about. But I want you to know that I'm willing and able to listen to anything that you have to say; and if you have any specific suggestions, let me know. The bad news is that we may be looking at July or August to finish the case.
JUROR NO. 1427: I see.
THE COURT: How does that strike you?
JUROR NO. 1427: That's not as bad as--it could be worse.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Anything else you think you want to or need to tell me?
JUROR NO. 1427: No. Not really. Nothing else.
THE COURT: Have you heard anything, any discussion about the news reporters, the press showing up at the homes or businesses of any of the other jurors?
JUROR NO. 1427: Yeah. Two jurors told me that reporters showed up at their place of work, at their workplace.
THE COURT: Who told you that?
JUROR NO. 1427: Juror 19 and juror 353.
THE COURT: Did they indicate to you at all how they heard that information?
JUROR NO. 1427: From their family members. Somebody actually contacted a high-level executive at her job, contacted her husband about the incident and her husband told her. And the other member, I don't know. I think it was a coworker or a relative that contacted him about the incident because I believe his relative works at the same place.
THE COURT: And the press had shown up? Is that the--
JUROR NO. 1427: Yes.
THE COURT: Okay. All right. Anything else?
JUROR NO. 1427: No. That's pretty much it.
THE COURT: All right. I'm going to order you not to discuss this with any of the other jurors, okay?
JUROR NO. 1427: Okay.
THE COURT: Thank you very much.
JUROR NO. 1427: Thank you.
(Juror no. 1427 exits chambers.)
(Juror no. 1386 enters chambers.)
THE CLERK: Juror 1386.
THE COURT: 1386, hi. How are you?
JUROR NO. 1386: Fine, thanks.
THE COURT: All right. How is everything going these days?
JUROR NO. 1386: Better.
THE COURT: Better?
JUROR NO. 1386: I feel better.
THE COURT: Good. Good. I'm glad to hear that. 1386, if you recall, the day before yesterday out in court, I indicated that certain things had been brought to my attention that I was going to need to talk to each one of the jurors individually, and that's what we're doing today. We started yesterday. And I want you to understand that the law in California requires that at any time allegations are made concerning conduct of jurors, I need to look into it immediately. So that's why I'm doing this. Just because allegations are made or have been made doesn't mean that I necessarily believe those allegations are true. And as far as you're concerned, I want you to understand that there are no allegations indicating that you've done anything improper. All right. Now, I need to ask you about four categories, four issues that I need to discuss with you this afternoon. First of all, are you aware of any conflicts between any of the individual jurors? And by that, I mean, any serious conflict, any heated arguments, any physical contact between jurors?
JUROR NO. 1386: Not serious. Just strange little things that I've seen as I mentioned one other time.
THE COURT: Not necessarily those strange little things that we talked about the last time, but anything that you would consider a serious conflict between jurors?
JUROR NO. 1386: No. I don't think so.
THE COURT: All right. Are you aware of any physical contact in the TV room between jurors?
JUROR NO. 1386: I know that accidents happen when you accidentally might bump into somebody, things like that, and I'm aware that people have accused others of doing that on purpose.
THE COURT: Were you present when that happened?
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: You just heard about it?
JUROR NO. 1386: Yes.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any such incidents, similar incidents in the jury box itself?
JUROR NO. 1386: Same thing.
THE COURT: Heard about it, didn't see it?
JUROR NO. 1386: Exactly.
THE COURT: Any other incidents that you're aware of?
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: All right. Have you observed anything that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct by any of the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: When you use the telephone room, has there ever been occasion where those calls have not been placed in the log and the deputy admonishes the person you're calling and they stay there in the phone room?
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: Ever been an incident where the deputies in the phone room have been playing cards and just told you to go ahead and make your own phone calls?
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: During the family visitation, has there ever been occasion where you feel the deputies weren't appropriately monitoring the activities?
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: Have the deputies done anything that you feel promotes the racial conflict between the jurors?
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: Has anything occurred that would cause you to believe that your hotel room has been searched by anybody without your permission?
JUROR NO. 1386: Not really. I--just things are a little bit differently sometimes when I come back.
THE COURT: Well, is there anything that would be out of the ordinary? You know, the housekeeping crew comes in and--
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: --cleans up. Is that the kind of moving around stuff we are talking about?
JUROR NO. 1386: I think so.
THE COURT: Anything in any drawers or anything that could not be explained by--
JUROR NO. 1386: No. I would probably--I'm not aware of that, no. Just like you said, cleaning I would associate that with.
THE COURT: Nothing private that you keep in drawers that it's been moved or anything like that?
JUROR NO. 1386: No, not that I know of or noticed.
THE COURT: Has it come to your attention that any jurors are treated any differently than any others?
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: Are there any incidents regarding the shopping outings that have come to your attention where maybe somebody thinks other jurors are being treated differently?
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: Any problems regarding the use of the gym facilities?
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: Any special use of the phones that you're aware of by any of the jurors?
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: Any problems regarding the scheduling and availability of the videotapes?
JUROR NO. 1386: As I say, I know other people have problems with this sort of stuff. But I don't see it personally. So no.
THE COURT: Has it come to your attention that any of the other jurors or yourself have discussed the case, the facts and circumstances of the case?
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: Have you or anybody else that you are aware of formed any opinions about the case?
JUROR NO. 1386: Not that I know of. No, I haven't.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any information that has been communicated to anybody on the jury that has come from outside the courtroom?
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any discussion about any jurors--about the news media showing up at their place of work or at their homes?
JUROR NO. 1386: Yes.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 1386: I heard 353 mention that somebody came to her work and I heard 19 mention someone came to his work I think. I think both's work.
THE COURT: Any other incidents?
JUROR NO. 1386: And that was it. And they went to the deputy to find out if that was normal or, you know, what's up with that sort of thing.
THE COURT: You're in seat no. 17. Seat no. 17, is there anything that's gone on that you think would cause you--
MR. DOUGLAS: 16.
JUROR NO. 1386: Pardon?
THE COURT: I am sorry. 16. You're right. Missed one here. 1386, is there anything that's gone on that you think might cause you a problem in being a fair and impartial juror in this case?
JUROR NO. 1386: Me personally?
THE COURT: You personally.
JUROR NO. 1386: No.
THE COURT: Anything you feel that you need to tell me or you want to tell me about anything that's gone on?
JUROR NO. 1386: I just feel better from talking the last time. I really unloaded a lot last time. If you need to excuse me for any reason, there would be no hard feelings. That's--
THE COURT: All right. I know. I understand that.
JUROR NO. 1386: That sort of stuff seems obvious. You know, always be nice to go home.
THE COURT: This trial is taking longer than we thought.
JUROR NO. 1386: Yes.
THE COURT: And it looks to me like July or August. How does that strike you?
JUROR NO. 1386: Awful.
THE COURT: Are you going to be able to survive?
JUROR NO. 1386: I am going to do the best I can.
THE COURT: Taking a day at a time?
JUROR NO. 1386: That's the best I can do.
THE COURT: You know, we're trying to do what we can to keep you entertained and, you know, we've had some special entertainment.
JUROR NO. 1386: You guys are doing fine when it comes to that. It's just the situation. There's nothing you can do, I mean, as far as--a comment regarding the last time I was in here and then I left. Just noticing, you know, afterwards, the people, my four individuals or five wouldn't, you know, look at me the rest of the day and I got the feeling that they were doing a lot of whispering like as if I had something to do with the excusing of 462. And then it kind of broke down. 1489 has started to say good morning to me now and things like that. 165 is very up and down. So I just kind of wanted to mention that little quirk. You know, it was just kind of an uneasy feeling the rest of that--for a couple days anyways. I know that I couldn't possibly have had anything--I'm just saying it's the way the arrangement of events. It was kind of--I had a little stress the last--the next day or two from that cold shoulder.
THE COURT: Not a problem at this point?
JUROR NO. 1386: Yeah. Like I say, I feel fine.
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Cochran?
MR. COCHRAN: No.
THE COURT: Mr. Darden?
MS. CLARK: Nothing, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. 1386, thanks again. I'm going to order you not to discuss this however with anybody else.
JUROR NO. 1386: Okiedoke.
THE COURT: Thanks a lot.
JUROR NO. 1386: Uh-huh.
(Juror no. 1386 exits chambers.)
(Juror no. 2179 enters chambers.)
THE CLERK: 2179.
THE COURT: Hi. Come on in and sit down.
JUROR NO. 2179: Afternoon.
THE COURT: How are you today?
JUROR NO. 2179: Okay.
THE COURT: Sorry to keep you cooped up all day.
JUROR NO. 2179: I'm learning my crocheting in there. So no problem.
THE COURT: Good. If you recall, the day before yesterday when we were in court, I indicated to you that some matters had been brought to my attention that caused me some concern and that I was going to have to talk to each of you individually. And you should understand that any time an allegation regarding the conduct of the jury is brought to my attention, that I need to look into it. And you should understand, however, that just because an allegation has been made doesn't necessarily mean that allegation to be true, but I am required to look into it first of all. Secondly, please understand that there is no allegation that you personally have done anything wrong, all right, but I do need to ask each one of you certain questions. And I have four categories of questions that I needed to ask you, okay?
JUROR NO. 2179: Okay.
THE COURT: No. 2179, is there anything that you know about any serious conflicts between any of our jury members? And by serious, I mean, any heated argument or any physical conduct between jurors?
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any kicking or hitting incident that took place in the TV room?
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any tripping or stepping incident that took place in the jury box?
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: Has anything--have you seen anything else that might indicate any of the other jurors are having a personality or severe personality conflict in the jury room?
JUROR NO. 2179: There's a couple of them in there make comments, you know, they say under their breath, but loud enough for somebody to hear it, you know, make comments, you know.
THE COURT: Anything serious other than--
JUROR NO. 2179: No. Nothing serious, not that I've heard. Just little minor stuff, you know.
THE COURT: Have you seen or observed anything that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct by any of the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: When you make phone calls, has there ever been occasion where the sheriff's deputies haven't been present in the phone room or allowed you to make phone calls without being supervised?
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: Every been occasion where they've been playing cards and just tell you to go ahead and make whatever phone calls you wanted?
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: During the family visitations, has there ever been occasion where they weren't supervising the visits?
JUROR NO. 2179: No. They've always been there.
THE COURT: Have they done anything in your opinion to promote any racial tension between the jurors?
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: Has anything happened over at your hotel room that might indicate to you that your room has been searched by anybody without your permission?
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: No. 2179, has anything happened that you're aware of that would indicate to you that some juror or jurors or group of jurors are receiving special treatment or different treatment?
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: Have there been any problems regarding any of the shopping outings that you're aware of?
JUROR NO. 2179: Uh-uh. No.
THE COURT: Any problems regarding the use of the gym facilities?
JUROR NO. 2179: No. None.
THE COURT: Any special treatment that anybody gets regarding phone usage or access to the phone?
JUROR NO. 2179: No. Not really. Just that one incident.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 2179: Some people stay on the phone longer than 15 minutes. And there was a waiting list that particular night, you know. And we know our limit is 15 minutes, and I just wish most of them would practice common courtesy, to get off in 15 minutes recognizing there's a waiting list. Some go over 15 minutes, and I just want to know if it's 15 minutes, it's 15 minutes for everybody, you know, to be fair about it; and some people be on longer than 15 minutes and then--that's all. But other than that, for the most part, mostly everybody in there know about their 15 minutes. It's just a certain few in there who get in there and abuse the privilege of 15 minutes. And these people know there's a waiting list, you know, because they be the first ones on the phone. So I was just asking them, "Would you please use, you know, 15 minutes that's set up like we're supposed to have it?"
THE COURT: Any particular deputies that you have in mind who don't enforce the 15-minute rule or they don't always enforce it?
JUROR NO. 2179: Well, some of them I can't--the other guy, he was new I guess. I don't know. They switched off. What had happened, one of them had went from the phone room to the TV room. So I guess--I don't know if he didn't know they were on that long, but they have a phone log there, and he just let them go on and talk and talk. And I said, "Wait a minute. It's getting kind of late and the phone list haven't moved and these people have been on the phone 30, 45 minutes to an hour, just stay there talking. Everybody waiting to get to the phone too." He just said, well, you know, he didn't know. But there's the phone log right there. You see the time that he started the phone call, you know. But that's about the only thing I--that only happened just maybe once or twice maybe.
THE COURT: Okay. Not a recurring problem?
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: All right. Have there been any problems regarding the availability or scheduling of the videotapes?
JUROR NO. 2179: No, I don't think so. I don't watch them too much.
THE COURT: 2179, has anything come to your attention that would cause you to believe that some of the jurors are discussing the facts and circumstances of the case?
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: Anything that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors have already formed opinions about the case?
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: Anything that would indicate to you that any of the jurors have received information about the case from outside?
JUROR NO. 2179: No.
THE COURT: Have you heard anything from anybody that would indicate that they're aware that the news media has been out to their home or been out to their place of work with regard to their services as a juror on this case?
JUROR NO. 2179: Heard a couple of the jurors mention a couple people been out to their jobs. They said that.
THE COURT: The news media had been out to their jobs?
JUROR NO. 2179: Yeah.
THE COURT: Okay. Which jurors was that? Do you know?
JUROR NO. 2179: I think it was 353 and 19. They both were saying people came out to their jobs.
THE COURT: All right. No. 2179, it looks to me like we're going to be taking a little more time than I thought trying this case. We may be talking about July or August. How do you feel about that?
JUROR NO. 2179: I guess I could--I'll be all right till then I guess.
THE COURT: You're going to hang in there for us?
JUROR NO. 2179: Yeah.
THE COURT: Is there anything else you feel that you want to or need to talk to us about?
JUROR NO. 2179: Everything is pretty good. I think the deputies, they're doing a very good job.
THE COURT: Is there anything you would suggest that we do to improve the things over at the hotel or the outings? Any suggestions?
JUROR NO. 2179: No. Not really. Everything running--going fine so far.
THE COURT: Okay. If you think of something, feel free to write me a note. And you should understand that if you ever feel you need to talk to me about anything, you can just write me a note. Just say, "I need to talk to you." If it's an emergency, let me know, and I'll drop everything and make sure that we communicate with each other.
JUROR NO. 2179: Okay.
THE COURT: If it's just something regular, then I'll get back to you in a day or two because obviously there's a lot of other things that I need to do with regard to the case. But you should understand you can at any time ask to talk to me.
JUROR NO. 2179: Okay. Thank you.
THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Cochran, anything else?
MR. COCHRAN: No.
THE COURT: Mr. Darden?
MR. DARDEN: Nothing, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay. 2179, I am going to order you not to discuss what we've discussed with any of the other jurors.
JUROR NO. 2179: Okay.
THE COURT: You have a nice day.
JUROR NO. 2179: Okay. You too.
(Juror no. 2179 exits chambers.)
(Juror no. 1492 enters chambers.)
THE CLERK: Juror 1492.
THE COURT: Last but not least. How are you, 1492?
JUROR NO. 1492: Fine. And you?
THE COURT: Good. I hope you don't mind me picking on you everyday when we're in trial asking if you can see stuff.
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: Since you are out there in Siberia. And if you can see it, then everybody can see it. Okay. How are you today?
JUROR NO. 1492: Fine.
THE COURT: Good. Sorry to leave you in there waiting so long. But obviously I wanted to take everybody in order so that there's no question about what's going on here. 1492, if you recall, the day before yesterday when we were in court, I indicated to you that some matter had been brought to my attention that I needed to look into. And you should understand that the law here in the state of California requires that any time a trial Judge is aware of any problems with the jury, that the Judge has to make some inquiry into it. And that's what we're doing here. And you should understand that simply because some allegations have been made doesn't mean that I necessarily believe those allegations are in any way true. You should also understand that there has been no allegation of any inappropriate or misconduct on your part in particular, but I do need to ask each one of the jurors these questions; and I have four categories of questions that I need to ask you about. Okay?
JUROR NO. 1492: Okay.
THE COURT: All right. No. 1492, are you aware of any conflict between any of the individual jurors? By that, I mean, serious conflict, any heated argument, any physical contact?
JUROR NO. 1492: I've seen brief--I mean, they weren't real arguments. They were disagreements.
THE COURT: Tell me about those.
JUROR NO. 1492: Once, they were looking at the calendars for the movies. She said like, "Excuse me," and she wanted to see the thing too. It was like, "I'll move when I'm finished," and--
THE COURT: Which two jurors were involved in that?
JUROR NO. 1492: 1489, 1427.
THE COURT: Okay. How long ago was that?
JUROR NO. 1492: It's been about a month ago maybe.
THE COURT: All right. Any other incidents that you're aware of?
JUROR NO. 1492: When we were back in the deliberation room maybe a month and a half or two months ago, someone started a meeting like and they got to picking on each other.
THE COURT: Well, the person who started that is no longer here, right?
JUROR NO. 1492: Right. But it was other people still. It wasn't just him that had started you know nitpicking really.
THE COURT: That stopped though, correct?
JUROR NO. 1492: After, yeah. The deputy told him to stop.
THE COURT: Any other conflicts that you're aware of?
JUROR NO. 1492: I can't think of any.
THE COURT: All right. 1492, are you aware of any hitting or kicking incident that took place in the TV room?
JUROR NO. 1492: Well, that was brought up in the meeting that they had had.
THE COURT: Tell me about that.
JUROR NO. 1492: I think I was in the TV room that night, but I didn't see it myself. So I didn't know about it. But she might have bumped into the chair or kicked it, you know, moving her feet, hit the chair, but I didn't see her kick anybody.
THE COURT: Which two jurors were involved in that?
JUROR NO. 1492: 353, 1489.
THE COURT: Are you aware of any incident that's taken place in the jury room?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: 1492, has anything occurred that you would characterize as unprofessional conduct by any of the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: When you make phone calls, has there ever been occasion where the deputies haven't supervised that phone call?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: Has there ever been occasion where the deputies in the phone room were playing cards and just told you, go ahead, make whatever phone calls you wanted to make?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: During the family visitations, has there ever been an occasion when the sheriffs have not supervised the visitors in an adequate way?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: Has there ever been occasion or anything that causes you to believe the sheriff's deputies are doing anything to promote racial tension between the jurors?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: Has there been anything--has anything happened that would cause you to believe that your hotel room has been searched without your permission?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: 1492, has anything occurred that would cause you to believe that any juror or group of jurors have been receiving special or different treatment by the sheriff's deputies?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: Have there been any problems regarding any of the shopping outings?
JUROR NO. 1492: Every time I've requested to go or suggested a place to go, I've been allowed to go.
THE COURT: So no problems as far as you're concerned?
JUROR NO. 1492: Not as far as I'm concerned.
THE COURT: Anything about who gets to shop how long? Any problems about that?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: Any problems regarding gym time access?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: Anybody get any special treatment regarding access to the phones?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: Any special treatment regarding the scheduling or availability of the videotapes?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: 1492, are you aware of anything that would cause you to believe that any of the other jurors or yourself have discussed the facts and circumstances of this case?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: Are you aware or has anything come to your attention that would cause you to believe that any of the jurors have already formed opinions about the case?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: Anything that causes you to believe that anybody received any information from outside the courtroom about the case?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: Anything that would indicate any of the jurors have discussed the news media going to their place of work to find out about them?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: All right. Anything else, 1492, you think that I need to know about or you want to tell me about?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: Okay. You should understand, 1492, that if you need to talk to me or want to talk to me about something, all you need to do is pass a note to the bailiff and say, "I need to talk to you." If it's an emergency, I'll drop everything I'm doing and make arrangements to talk to you.
JUROR NO. 1492: Okay.
THE COURT: All right. How's everything else going?
JUROR NO. 1492: Fine except for the food.
THE COURT: Oh, oh. Where is the food bad?
JUROR NO. 1492: It's horrible at the hotel.
THE COURT: At the hotel?
JUROR NO. 1492: Uh-huh.
THE COURT: Okay. Well, you know, I'm trying to arrange, you know, special outings on the weekend for different foods, and I plan on going over to the hotel pretty soon and check things out again.
JUROR NO. 1492: I've asked for my refrigerator to be opened in my room so I could bring my own stuff in. If I could buy my food every day--I just don't want to eat there. I mean, I don't eat there now.
THE COURT: What kind of food would you bring in?
JUROR NO. 1492: Just something I could microwave.
THE COURT: That bad?
JUROR NO. 1492: To me it is. Not only is it bad, it's nasty. They have hair--I found more than five occasions--five occasions, I've had hair in my food. So I haven't eaten there in about a month and a half or two.
THE COURT: How's the food here at the courthouse?
JUROR NO. 1492: It's okay.
THE COURT: Okay. Anything else we need to talk about?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: Okay. The case is going a little slower than I had thought it was going to go, and I'm going to try to speed things up, but--
JUROR NO. 1492: The mall. I think we need to get to the mall.
THE COURT: You need to get to the mall?
JUROR NO. 1492: Yeah. Badly.
THE COURT: Badly? All right. Badly. We may be here through June--excuse me--through July or August. How does that strike you?
JUROR NO. 1492: I'm not surprised.
THE COURT: All right. Can you survive?
JUROR NO. 1492: I think so.
THE COURT: If I get you your own food.
JUROR NO. 1492: And the mall.
THE COURT: And the mall. Okay. I will take that into consideration.
JUROR NO. 1492: Okay.
THE COURT: Mr. Cochran?
(A discussion was held off the record between the Court, Mr. Darden and Mr. Cochran.)
THE COURT: 1492, you've indicated that you stopped eating over at the hotel.
JUROR NO. 1492: If I eat, it would only be at breakfast, but I don't go to dinner. They don't serve lunch there, but I don't go to dinner.
THE COURT: I mean, are you taking any stuff home from the--I mean, are you taking any packages home from the lunch meal here?
JUROR NO. 1492: No.
THE COURT: How are you surviving?
JUROR NO. 1492: I have some microwaveable soups.
THE COURT: And that's it?
JUROR NO. 1492: That's it.
THE COURT: Okay. Who would do the shopping for you?
JUROR NO. 1492: I can have my mother or any--somebody from the outside.
THE COURT: If I do this for you, I'm probably going to have to do it for everybody else.
JUROR NO. 1492: I know there is a few that don't go to dinner.
THE COURT: Okay. I'll look into it. Hopefully we will be able to resolve this by Monday.
JUROR NO. 1492: Okay.
THE COURT: Okay. 1492, I'm going to order you not to discuss what we have talked about here with anybody else, okay, including the other jurors.
JUROR NO. 1492: All right.
THE COURT: Thanks a lot. You have a nice day.
(Juror no. 1492 exits chambers.)
THE COURT: Counsel, what I need to do, I think what I need to do is review our transcript, prepare one of my famous charts individually by jurors what they're complaining about and make arrangements to interview the sheriff's deputies involved, both the sergeant involved and perhaps some of the individual deputies. I understand that Alads would like to be heard on the court interviewing individual deputies. And I am going to also go over to the hotel myself to inspect a few things to understand a few things. I need to see the physical layout. I mean, I was there when it was set up initially, but I have not been back since it's been put into operation. So I think I need to do that. And so that's where we are.
MR. COCHRAN: Judge?
THE COURT: Do you recommend that I take any immediate action as to any of these issues?
MR. COCHRAN: I do. I think that hearing 18 people and hearing the same names come up--I mean, I'm not into trying to penalize anybody particularly, but I just think that we've heard the names of "A", "B" and "I" enough that I think that we need to work out something where they spend less time with this jury, they be recycled in with some other people. I think we've heard those names enough that I'd like to see you take some action regarding this. And I think the other thing about the food, I was a little concerned. If somebody is not eating, you know, for whatever reason, we need to take a look at that real quickly. Those are things I think we need to take action on. There is one other potential witness you are aware of. Deirdra has the number. So we need to probably deal with that sooner rather than later for obvious reasons.
MR. DARDEN: Who's that?
THE COURT: One of our other former jurors has called. Also, if you recall, former Juror no. 620 has also been publicly quoted as saying certain things similar to what Juror no. 462 has said. So we may need to check with him as well.
MR. COCHRAN: He has a lawyer apparently now. So he'll probably come down with his counsel.
MR. DARDEN: As far as the issue with the deputies, although I see no evidence of any misconduct on the part of any of the deputies, perceptions are important. And when I reflect on I believe it was 453, Juror no. 2--
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. DARDEN: --and her demeanor during her discussion of certain deputies, I think some immediate action is required. We have to be certain of an environment that will allow these jurors to get along so they can get along during deliberations. We only want to do this once, and I hope Alads and the sheriff's department will cooperate and soon.
THE COURT: Commander, do you have any comment?
MR. HOLLAND: Well, I know we will cooperate fully and Alads--what I just heard after the break at lunch was that the deputies have the option of having a representative come in with them, and I think that's what some of them may do. I don't know for sure if they will or not. In regard to the three deputies continually being named in the testimony we've heard, I do have some information in talking to Sergeant "J" that there may be some reasons why these deputies acted the way they did. I think before we take any drastic action, I think they should be heard before anything happens. Some things have changed from the beginning because when you first start out on anything, it's a little rough. And the sergeant of the deputies has changed some methods that they've been operating on over there, but I think we should hear from them before.
THE COURT: All right. Commander, I'm going to suggest we do this. I would like to have an opportunity to go over the transcript from yesterday and today and to isolate specific incidents concerning the named sheriff's deputies and I would like to interview Sergeant "J" and the three named deputies Friday afternoon.
MR. COCHRAN: The problem--and I have a lot of respect for Sergeant "J". Part of the problem, you need to check that out. Telling the jurors you have nothing to do with the snacks and things like that, you know, it's a problem. And I think that there is this problem of perception. You were here, you saw no. 453.
MR. HOLLAND: Right.
MR. COCHRAN: That was the bright, intelligent lady who basically cried during the entire interview based on her perception of Deputy "I" primarily. I think we need to do something quicker rather than later.
THE COURT: My concern though is, everybody here is entitled to some due process and I'm not leaping off any bridges yet and I think addressing the issue Friday afternoon is soon enough.
MR. DARDEN: Friday?
MR. COCHRAN: Friday afternoon? Yes. Okay. That's fine. It's important. Yes.
THE COURT: All right. Then we will stand in recess until tomorrow morning at 9:00 A.M. sharp where I expect Andrea Mazzola will be here for one day of testimony, correct?
MR. COCHRAN: The lawyers questioning her aren't here. We certainly hope it will be quick.
THE COURT: Express to them the Court's expectation.
MR. DARDEN: Just remember, they are from New York, your Honor. So it wouldn't be improper to set some limitations.
THE COURT: All right. We are in recess.
(At 3:30 P.M., an adjournment was taken until, Thursday, April 20, 1995, 9:00 A.M.)