Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(Pages 30825 through 30828, volume 161A, transcribed and sealed under separate cover.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Back on the record in the Simpson matter. Mr. Simpson is again present before the Court with his counsel, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Cochran, Mr. Kardashian, Mr. Douglas, Mr. Blasier. The People are represented by Miss Clark, Mr. Darden, Mr. Kelberg, Mr. Lynch. The jury is not present. Counsel, this morning at nine o'clock the Court conducted an in camera presentation by County counsel with regard to certain personnel records that were requested by means of subpoena duces tecum by the Defense, and those matters, along with the representations of County counsel, have been presented to the Court. And in the Court's abundant spare time the Court will look over those records and redact any unnecessary matters. And just so the parties understand, both--if the Court finds these to be relevant to the professional competence issues that we discussed, then the Court will disclose a copy to each side and there will be a protective order that those records are not to be further copied or disseminated. All right. Anything else we need to take up before--

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I have one question for clarification.

THE COURT: Yes. Mr. Cochran, good morning, sir.

MS. CLARK: Can we have a moment, your Honor?

THE COURT: Certainly.

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: Good morning, your Honor. Just a brief question, your Honor, with regard to the Court's order regarding the Coroner's photos. The Court indicates that the Court will allow limited public access to the autopsy photos and I guess my question is when representatives are selected from the news media pool, they will not then be allowed to take pictures, will they?

THE COURT: No. It will be strictly viewing here in Court, similar to the crime scene photos that was--viewing that was conducted previously.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Thank you for that clarification, your Honor.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I do have an additional matter.

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

MR. KELBERG: Somewhat in line with the Court's in camera reviewing. At some point after we complete the discussion with Dr. Lakshmanan of the autopsies of both cases, I would anticipate covering the two mistake cases that the Court has allowed the Defense to raise on the issue of Dr. Golden's competency. I need to make the motion in limine formal that I have tried to make all along regarding the other incidents that have been alleged because I need a ruling from the Court as to whether any of those three additional incidents is admissible. If they are, I would anticipate covering them on direct examination with Dr. Lakshmanan, as well as the two that the Court has already ruled are admissible. Likewise, I would like to know if there is any anything in the personnel evaluation file that the Court will be reviewing in camera which may be relevant, in the Court's judgment, to the issue of Dr. Golden's competency, because if there is and if I can concur in the Court's assessment that this has some bearing on his competency, then again it would be a matter I would expect to elicit through direct examination of Dr. Lakshmanan. I doubt I would finish both autopsy testimony by the end of today, because of the Court session and a juror apparently having a medical appointment, but it is most likely that if I don't today, it would be a matter that I would address quite early, I would think, tomorrow.

THE COURT: All right. How has that--refresh my recollection as to how this issue has been presented to the Court as to these three additional--I don't recollect having read any--

MR. KELBERG: No, I don't think any materials have been submitted. They have been given to Mr. Shapiro. There are three cases. One is the blue case which is a case involving a woman who was shot, taken to Martin Luther King Hospital for treatment and she died at Martin Luther King Hospital. I should point out, all of these incidents arise out of this prime time live broadcast, including the two incidents that the Court has already ruled are admissible. This is the third incident, the blue incident. Allegedly Dr. Golden identified only one gunshot wound to ms. Blue, and allegedly, according to the emergency room doctor who may have been the resident actually, ms. Blue had sustained three gunshot wounds. We believe the evidence will in fact show that Dr. Golden was absolutely correct in identifying only one gunshot wound. We have the photographs of the x-rays. We have the autopsy photographs. And quite frankly, the doctor at Martin Luther King Hospital is simply wrong and we will have to litigate the merits of whether there was a mistake or not and I have no difficulty in litigating the merits because on the merits I believe the evidence will show Dr. Golden made no mistake. So my argument is a 352 argument that this Court has already heard and the jury has already heard testimony that Dr. Golden made a lot of mistakes in this case, these two cases, I should say, of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, and they are going to hear evidence that he made two mistakes that we concede in this other case. Do we really need to spend the time litigating the merits of this blue case? Because if we do, we are going to be bringing in the doctor from Martin Luther King Hospital and we are going to be bringing in other experts, if necessary, to show that Dr. Golden made absolutely no mistake whatsoever. And do we really advance the search for the truth here or are we wasting a whole lot of time over nothing when the jury already understands that mistakes were made in these cases that are before the jury, which is really the most important thing. So that is the first case. The second case is the Erin Abernathy case. This was a child who died and the matter was investigated for possible shaken baby syndrome, and again, according to the broadcast on prime time live, allegedly Dr. Golden threw away the child's brain, making it impossible for anyone to reach a conclusion that would be with sufficient medical certainty to support a criminal prosecution of anyone for killing this child through the shaking of the baby and the so-called shaken baby syndrome. Interestingly, I received a call from a Dr. Speth who claimed to have been retained by ABC and Mr. Donaldson to review the Abernathy case, and according to Mr. Speth or Dr. Speth, he told Mr. Donaldson that there was no mistake made on Dr. Golden's part in supposedly throwing away the brain, and that in fact if there was responsibility it was the neuropathologist, Dr. Itabashi, and he told Mr. Donaldson, but Mr. Donaldson didn't search for another expert, and that was broadcast. Well, we will litigate this issue because there was no mistake made and there was no inability to evaluate the case for shaken baby syndrome. I happen to have been involved as a consultant in our office in that case, so I'm quite familiar with the case, and if we have to litigate it, we will litigate it. Now, of course the comparison of an infant death from allegedly shaken baby syndrome to the circumstances of this case are hard for me to fathom, but again, we can spend the time if the Court wants, but we will be litigating the merits of whether or not a mistake was made.

THE COURT: But wouldn't the relevance in Abernathy be the fact that an important sample was discarded and therefore not available for review, similar to the stomach contents here?

MR. KELBERG: If that were the case. Our contention is that in fact the brain was properly preserved, examined, sections were taken and the neuropathologist examined those as well and that material was available for review and it is not the so-called throwing away of the stomach contents where basically there is nothing left except Dr. Golden's description. And the important thing to recognize is Dr. Golden is not involved with that in the first place as far as--he preserved the brain for examination by the neuropathologist. The third case is this one that recently came to light, Mr. Hall, and this is the incident involving the missing thyroid gland, if you will. According to Dr. Golden's autopsy the gentleman had a thyroid gland. According to a lawyer representing I believe the widow of Mr. Hall, she contended that Mr. Hall had had his thyroid gland removed many years earlier, and it appears that that is in fact the case, that Dr. Golden made a mistake in identifying the thyroid gland as being present when in fact it was not. Again, now what that has to do--I mean, this is an elderly man and allegations were made that in fact this elderly man was killed as a part of a scheme to acquire assets or something of that nature. The matter has been reviewed within our office, and as of when I last spoke a couple of days ago with a lawyer who has reviewed the case in our office, insufficient evidence was found to support a criminal complaint. We have to litigate the merits, we will litigate the merits. But again, does this give the jury anything of substantial additional information about Dr. Golden's competency that is not available from the two cases that the Court has already ruled are admissible, and all of the mistakes that we are going to be talking about here? Because even, pardon me, when the Court talks about the stomach contents and so forth, obviously we haven't gotten to the issue of is there any significance of throwing away the stomach contents, but the Court has heard my argument before when we were talking about the alleged gun incident with Dr. Golden, that people talk a lot in the press, it seems, about what horrible things are done in the way of throwing away material, without having a basis of fact on which to make these judgments. We are going to give this jury bases and facts as to whether they can make a judgment as to whether they are significant or not and my argument is when the jury hears all the evidence, for example, on time of death, they will understand that the stomach contents is not a factor which is a reliable indicator at all on estimation for range of time of death. And if one wants to use it at all, it serves to narrow the time of death much closer to 10:15 than it would to eleven o'clock. And if Dr. Baden testifies, as I pointed out before, we will certainly question him about his previous testimony in 1988 regarding time of death and stomach contents which I will say for the record is not supported by any medical literature that I have reviewed, the most recent literature in spits and fisher and so forth, but we will litigate it. And the point is that that is the issue, the significance or lack of significance. These issues of the thyroid or the non-thyroid, the evidence would show that the absence of the thyroid gland from this person, when it is represented to have been present, does not deprive the medical examiner of assessing whether or not this person was killed at the hands of another. There were problems in making the assessment because the body was embalmed to begin with and not turned over for possible investigation as a criminal homicide for about eight days, as I recall, from the general information. So there is a lot to litigate as to whether there is any significance whatsoever to having identified a gland that was in fact not present. Those are the three cases that I would ask the Court not to permit testimony about under 352 on the ground that it would engage the jury in a waste of time for material that is duplicative of the evidence that they will have heard that indicates mistakes by Dr. Golden which are directly relevant to their assessment of issues in this case.

THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Shapiro.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much. Mr. Kelberg is in an ironic position. Yesterday he wasn't talking about the competency of Dr. Golden, rather, he conducted what I thought was a very effective or would have been a very effective cross-examination of the incompetency of Dr. Golden. Today now he is talking about the competency of Dr. Golden and none of these are issues that we have brought up at all. We haven't said a word, filed one motion, and we have no obligation in advance to tell Mr. Kelberg what our cross-examination is going to be. If he wants to challenge the competency of Dr. Golden, that is his privilege, and he did that yesterday and I thought he did that quite effectively. If he does not want to challenge the competency of Dr. Golden, then he can call him as a witness and vouch for his credentials, but I don't know how to respond to any of this other than it seems like Mr. Kelberg may want to sue Sam Donaldson.

THE COURT: Well, sounds to me like a motion in limine, and if there is no opposition, then I will grant his motion.

MR. SHAPIRO: Well, we are greatly opposed to anything that is relevant in this case, and clearly Dr. Lakshmanan has put into issue the fact that prior to reviewing the records in this case he had no knowledge whatsoever of any errors done by Dr. Golden, and apparently it was only until we retained our experts, Dr. Baden and Dr. Wolf, to examine this case and point out the errors to Dr. Lakshmanan and his staff, that Dr. Lakshmanan then conducted his own investigation and concurred with the findings of Dr. Baden and Dr. Wolf, that errors had been made. So we think clearly the issue has been put in by the Prosecution and they should not now be able to limit what evidence comes in and what doesn't come in regarding competency.

THE COURT: How about Mr. Kelberg's argument regarding the factual dispute to the blue case, the fact that in the Abernathy case the discarding of the samples was done by someone other than Dr. Golden, and that in the Hall case the presence or absence of that gland had ultimately nothing to do with the ultimate conclusions?

MR. SHAPIRO: Well, these are all issues that go to the competency of Dr. Golden. They are issues that we have to review regarding the reports that have been filed with your Honor as to whether or not mistakes have been made in the past by Dr. Golden and whether Dr. Lakshmanan or his staff were aware of those mistakes. But for them to be able to pick and choose and say, yes, he made these errors, he made thirty errors in this case and in two other cases, one case which resulted in the dismissal of a capital murder case, Dr. Golden misdiagnosed an entrance wound and an exit wound and a person who had been in jail and in custody for a prolonged period of time was rendered factually innocent by Judge Pounders. They have chosen, I guess, to bring those things up themselves, to--for whatever strategic advantage may lie in doing that, but I don't see where the Court should rule in limine on any prior activity regarding Dr. Golden's competency. They have put it in issue and we should be allowed wide cross-examination.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. KELBERG: May I briefly respond, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: For the record Dr. Baden and Dr. Wolf did not point out anything to Dr. Lakshmanan. There was a joint examination on June 22nd and Dr. Lakshmanan was not told of anything identified by Dr. Baden or Dr. Wolf. Dr. Lakshmanan saw exactly what doctors Baden and Wolf saw and Dr. Lakshmanan identified whatever he did.

THE COURT: Well, Mr. Kelberg, the issue is Dr. Golden's competence, we agree.

MR. KELBERG: I understand. Your Honor, the Court is well aware of motions in limine. I am contending under section 352, which the Court is well aware of, does not violate the sixth amendment right to confront and cross-examine witnesses, that this evidence should be deemed inadmissible and that is what I ask the Court to rule on. And I believe there is no basis from the Defense to say that the Court is without jurisdiction to rule on a motion in limine. If the Court is without jurisdiction, then I must have been missing something for seventeen years of practice because it is such a common procedure for courts to make such rulings in advance of the anticipated testimony and the Court understands that if in fact there is going to be testimony permitted. And just to refresh everybody's recollection, including Mr. Shapiro's, we made a motion in limine regarding the first two incidents, as the Court will recall. The Court made a ruling, in essence, saying that we were wrong and I abide by that ruling and that is why we are going to bring the matter out.

THE COURT: I think I gave a split decision on that.

MR. KELBERG: You did, your Honor, that is quite true.

THE COURT: Yes, yes.

MR. KELBERG: But nevertheless, we are not here contesting the Court's ruling as to those two issues that were deemed admissible, and we are here merely now because we have these three additional cases which we have examined and we saw claims were made, mistakes were made. We say either no mistakes, blue, Abernathy, nothing attributable to Dr. Golden and completely unrelated to these cases before this jury, and in the case of Hall, something that is simply of no significance whatsoever with respect to that issue. So on that basis I ask the Court to rule under 352 that this evidence is inadmissible.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. KELBERG: Submitted.

THE COURT: Thank you. All right. As to the blue case, since there is a factual dispute that will involve essentially the Court and the jury having to try that case as well, I'm going to sustain the 352 objection as an undue consumption of Court time. As to Abernathy, since it appears from the offer that it is not contested that Dr. Golden did in fact retain the brain and that it was actually processed and handled and then discarded by another doctor, I find also that that is subject to a 352 objection that is well taken. As to the Hall matter, this involved the thoroughness in which a body is examined, the amount of time that is spent during the course of the examination, and I find that that does have substantial probative value and I will allow cross-examination as to the Hall matter. All right. Anything else?

MR. KELBERG: No, your Honor.

MR. SHAPIRO: Nothing, your Honor.

MR. KELBERG: One brief matter.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Just for the record, because the Defense objected to certain--I think in fact all of our autopsy photographs, but they asked that a particular photograph, G34, be used in our presentation along with the photos that the Court has ruled are admissible, and I have no objection to doing that. And the Defense has agreed that we may also use a cropped photograph, G25, showing the hand of Mr. Goldman which has one particular injury that is not clearly visible in the alternative photograph which the Court allowed us to use which is G26.

MR. SHAPIRO: That's correct, that it should not be in any way viewed as a waiver of our previous objections.

THE COURT: Noted. Thank you.

MR. KELBERG: Nothing further.

THE COURT: Let's have the jurors, please. Let me see Mr. Cochran and Mr. Kelberg without the Court reporter, please.

(A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Let the record reflect that we have been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran, the witness on the stand at the time of the evening adjournment, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

THE COURT: All right. Dr. Lakshmanan is again on the witness stand. Good morning, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Good morning, your Honor.

THE COURT: Doctor, you are reminded, sir, that you are still under oath. And Dr. Lakshmanan is undergoing direct examination by Mr. Kelberg. Ladies and gentlemen, before we proceed any further, as I mentioned to you earlier in the week, that some of this presentation will be unpleasant, and we understand that it is difficult duty as jurors for you to have to view some of these items of evidence. However, it is necessary that you consider each item of evidence that is presented to you. If you have difficulty or find yourself feeling very uncomfortable and if you think it would be appropriate to take a break, please feel free to let me know. All right. All right. Mr. Kelberg.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. And your Honor, for the record, we have moved the easel, again at the suggestion of one of the deputies, to try and do as much as we can to shield the photographs from the audience section and at the same time give the ladies and gentlemen of the jury an opportunity to view the photographs. I would ask if the newest movement creates an inability on any of the juror's part to see what the juror feels he or she needs to see, I would ask that the Court be apprised of that so that we could perhaps juggle it a little bit better.

THE COURT: All right. The Court routinely canvasses the extremities of the jury panel for their ability to see.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Proceed.

MR. KELBERG: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

MR. KELBERG: Good morning, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Good morning.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have what appears to be a newspaper photograph that I would ask to be marked as exhibit 353.

THE COURT: All right. Have you shown that to Mr. Shapiro?

MR. KELBERG: I showed it to Mr. Cochran this morning.

THE COURT: All right. People's 353.

(Peo's 353 for id = newspaper photo)

MR. KELBERG: Yes, and I will ask Mr. Fairtlough to put it on the elmo.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. KELBERG

MR. KELBERG: Doctor--

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may we have just a moment before that is put up?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: May we approach, your Honor?

THE COURT: With the court reporter, please.

(The following proceedings were held at the bench:)

THE COURT: We are over at the side bar.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, we believe that this is in the form of asked and answered. What he is attempting to do is show a photograph of a demonstration that took place yesterday, and it would be objected to.

THE COURT: Okay. The objection is noted. Overruled. Proceed.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you.

(The following proceedings were held in open court:)

THE COURT: Thank you, counsel.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if you could invite your attention to the photograph, exhibit 353 that is on the overhead. Doctor, does this photograph fairly and accurately depict the demonstration that you performed yesterday afternoon regarding your opinion as to the manner in which that major stab/incise wound was inflicted to the neck of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It catches one moment of the beginning of the description of the fatal stab/incise wound I described yesterday.

MR. KELBERG: And doctor, given how you appear in this exhibit, is it your opinion that the perpetrator of that stab/incise wound used his or her right hand to inflict that injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And is it your opinion that the perpetrator used his or her left hand to pull the hair of Nicole Brown Simpson and thus reflect the neck in a hyperextended fashion as shown in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And if Mr. Fairtlough will print that, I think we are done with that photograph.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if you could step down, I'm going to put back--take the pointer with you, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: (Witness complies.)

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Kelberg, if you would just wait for opposing counsel and their experts to position themselves.

MR. KELBERG: Absolutely. And your Honor, as we discussed with Mr. Cochran, we are going to have some easels up and there is going to have to be some movement to allow everybody to see everything and at the same time have certain exhibits prepped for the jury's observation.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Kelberg.

MR. KELBERG: I think I lost my witness for a second, your Honor.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I want to go back to the photographs B-13 and B-16 regarding the blood flow that you would expect from such a stab/incise wound. Are you familiar with the term called "Aspiration of blood"?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What does that mean, and if you will keep your voice up, please?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: "Aspiration" means that you aspirate the blood into the airways or the respiratory tract.

MR. KELBERG: "Aspirated" in essence means swallowing it, instead of down the esophagus, down your windpipe?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically the blood enters your windpipe and you can't breathe.

MR. KELBERG: Is aspiration of blood of any significance in evaluating a sharp force injury such as the one seen in these two photographs, B-13 and B-16?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: When you have an injury of such a nature to the neck, especially slicing the large thyrohyoid radia, you would expect some bleeding and aspiration of blood into the respiratory tract, and none was found here.

MR. KELBERG: You have reviewed Dr. Golden's report concerning an examination of the trachea and the lungs?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And does he make a specific reference with respect to whether or not any such aspiration of blood was found?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: He makes no reference?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: He makes a reference about the lungs and bronchi, but he doesn't discuss any aspiration.

MR. KELBERG: Were representative samples of the lungs preserved by Dr. Golden at the autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Have you examined those preserved samples?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: Have you examined them from the standpoint of looking for evidence of aspirated blood?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What, if any, findings did you make?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: None.

MR. KELBERG: None? You made no findings?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I made findings, but there is no aspiration which I could see in the sections which I examined.

MR. KELBERG: And that would be consistent with the absence of a finding of aspirated blood in the trachea?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And in the lungs?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: May I have just a moment, your Honor, to speak with Mr. Cochran and Mr. Shapiro?

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, assuming that there was no blood aspirated by Nicole Brown Simpson, what, if any, significance does that have to you in forming any opinion as to the circumstances under which this wound was inflicted and she subsequently died?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: As I opined yesterday, she was most likely face down when the final fatal stab/incise wound was inflicted, and I also opined that the neck was hyperextended, and when this incision took place all the bleeding, the blood flow, went to the ground. And also the injury you are discussing endures nearly all the four major blood vessels, both the jugular veins and the carotid artery and this would lead sometimes as to immediate death or death within a very few minutes. And since there is bleeding there, she was definitely having blood pressure for at least a short time, which would cause her death, and also because of the position, I'm not surprised if she didn't aspirate because the blood flowed out to the ground and there was no evidence of aspiration seen.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, you have had an opportunity to review photographs taken by the police department at the Bundy scene when the bodies were found; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have another board of photographs that I would ask to be--that I would ask to be marked as exhibit 354, entitled "Blood from sharp force injuries to the neck of ms. Brown."

(Peo's 354 for id = posterboard)

THE COURT: Do you want to just put it on top?

MR. KELBERG: I'm going to.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I invite your attention on this new exhibit--354 I believe I would ask to have the Court marked as.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. KELBERG: I think 353 was our single photograph.

THE COURT: 354.

MR. KELBERG: Inviting your attention to a photograph that is marked cS-11, does that photograph have some significance to you on the subject about which you were just testifying?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is the significance?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Ms. Brown Simpson is lying semi-prone here on her left side, and if you can see the left forearm and hand, the knuckles are opposing the ground.

MR. KELBERG: Does that mean in contact with the ground?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. And you have the--her right hand flexed at the elbow and under her chin area, around the chin area here, (Indicating), this is the pavement here and this is the--

MR. KELBERG: Keep your voice up, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The head here and the pharynx here and the chin is here so the other hand is somewhere in that region, (Indicating). Now, if you look at crime scene photograph 39, you looked at crime scene photograph 11 now, giving you the general position, if you look at crime scene no. 39, the same knuckle, if you look here, (Indicating), the knuckle for the index finger and the knuckle for the middle finger is pale and there is no blood staining there. This would indicate that the hand was in contact because you will have massive blood flow from this neck wound, and this means that this hand was in contact with the ground, this is my opinion, when this neck was hyperextended and incised, so the blood flowed around the hand and left the areas in contact. You can also see the watch area here, (Indicating), and this area which didn't have blood on it because those are the areas in contact, so the blood flows and whatever is in contact with the ground will not have any blood staining and that supports my opinion that she was on the ground face down when this fatal wound took place with the blood flowing around the extremity as I just described.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, which hand--CS, crime scene 39 photograph, which hand does that photograph depict?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The left hand.

MR. KELBERG: And I ask you to assume for your opinion that that photograph fairly and accurately represents the condition of the hand as the body was observed on June 13th, 1994. Now, doctor, I want to invite your attention--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Right here, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: I think we have a mistake. On the board it says June 13th, 1995. Somebody patched a 5 over our 4, but I will ask, your Honor, that we will remove that patch or put another one on. It is obviously from 1994.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I can't quite see that. CS-40 I believe is the photograph in the same row on the opposite side. Is that photograph of any significance to you?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. This also shows that the right hand area, this is the right hand, which I'm looking--which we are looking at, and if you look at the area around the knuckle proximal phalanx, this is the area of the hand. If you read into crime scene photograph 11, it would indicate that this part of the hand is in this region here, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: Indicating, your Honor, for the record, the doctor took the back of his right hand and had up against the--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Chin area.

MR. KELBERG: --chin area on the left side, a bit of his chin.

THE COURT: Noted.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: So this--these photographs clearly demonstrate the blood flow pattern and why these photographs support my opinion which I opined yesterday as to the neck stab/incise wound being the last wound which Miss Simpson suffered.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in your opinion, the head can be pulled back with the left hand by use of the hair and the neck hyperextended and still have the two hands in contact with the ground, as you have indicated here?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Not--only one hand on the ground. The other one was there after the incision was made and then--

MR. KELBERG: Contact with the chin?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: So one hand in contact with the ground, one hand in contact with the chin when the head is pulled back? Is that your opinion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. One hand was in contact with the ground. The head was pulled back. The other hand fell in place when the final resting position came in.

MR. KELBERG: All right. And so both hands were on the ground at the time the wound actually was inflicted?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, inviting your attention to what appears to be blood around the head of Nicole Brown Simpson in photograph cS-11, doctor, assuming that that is the blood of Nicole Brown Simpson, is that blood volume that appears in that photograph consistent with the kind of bleeding you would expect from that major stab/incise wound seen in the photographs in exhibit 352?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: How long would it take, in your opinion, for that blood to be flowing outside of the body to create what we are seeing in crime scene 11 photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: As I described earlier, this is the last wound, in my opinion, and I also discussed loss of blood and--if you lose about--I don't think I discussed that. If you lose--the normal blood volume is 4 to 5.5 liters in an average human being.

MR. KELBERG: Can you give us an idea what a liter is?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: A thousand cc's or 5 liters is about 5000 cc's.

MR. KELBERG: Hang on. Before you--can we move it into a system that most of us might understand?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Okay.

MR. KELBERG: Gallons, quarts?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is one and a half gallons roughly.

MR. KELBERG: One and a half gallons is the equivalent of--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The blood volume because this--I'm talking about the U.S. gallon because the imperial gallon is much higher amount. I think the U.S. gallon is 3.4 or 3.5 liters, if I am right, and the imperial gallon is about 4.4.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I didn't even know there was an imperial gallon, so I will be satisfied with the U.S. gallon?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: About one and a half gallons of blood volume and just an approximate maybe. The normal blood volume, as you know, the metric system is 5 to 5.5 liters. If anybody loses 2 to 2.5 liters rapidly they will go into shock and following shock you more or less will die after that without medical treatment because your heart will go into irregular beats and then you will die. Miss Brown had other injuries which also would cause significant bleeding. She had four sharp force injuries to the neck here, (Indicating). She had some sharp force injuries to the head which would also cause bleeding. And those, in my opinion, occurred before this wound, so accounting for some blood loss from those wounds and this, I would say she died within a few minutes, probably much less than a minute or so, because the--she would have gone into rapid shock with this massive injury.

MR. KELBERG: And doctor, is that time frame, minutes to perhaps less than a minute, sufficient for that volume of blood to flow outside of her body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, because as I told you, these are large vessels in the neck, the carotid artery. The carotid artery roughly pumps about 200 cc's a minute on both sides. And you also have the jugular veins which are large venus channels but also all the smaller vessels are getting cut at the same time. I'm not discussing the smaller vessels rest else.

MR. KELBERG: When you say "Smaller vessels," smaller mall blood vessels?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, which are branches of these injuries.

MR. KELBERG: What would be the effect of all of those injuries?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Blood pressure goes to zero. And the blood pressure goes to zero when you lose about 25 percent to 35 percent of your blood volume.

(Brief pause.)

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough suggests pulling the microphone--I'm not sure which microphone.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, when you testified yesterday about this stab/incise wound, you talked about in your opinion how it is deeper on the left side and shallower on the right side. Was there also something about the angulation of the wound which was of any significance to you?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. It angulates from the mid-portion of the left neck upwards to the right side of the neck below the ear. The wound ends just below the right ear.

MR. KELBERG: How is the angulation of any significance to you, if it is, in forming your opinion as to the sequence or circumstances of how the wound was in fact inflicted, as shown in the demonstration yesterday afternoon?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That will support my opinion in the manner that when the head is hyperextended and a right-handed person inflicts this injury, at least a person who used his right hand to inflict this injury, the upward angle will fit the scenario which I just opined.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, you said a right-handed person and then you talked about a person using his right hand. How do you distinguish those two concepts?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because some people may be strong in both the hands, and some people are, so there could be equal dexterity in both extremities.

MR. KELBERG: Equal dexterity in both extremities?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: "Extremities" meaning in this case the hand?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: If you keep your voice up, it would really help the reporter because she is behind you and it is very difficult, so--doctor, before I move to another photograph that you briefly talked about, B-18, I just want to talk briefly about an area on B-13 that appears on the left side of the face of Nicole Brown Simpson and what appears to be some kind of discoloration. Do you see that in the photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is that of any significance to you as a forensic pathologist?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. That is the discoloration caused by postmortem lividity which is also known as livor mortis.

MR. KELBERG: And we touched on that I think on Friday when we were looking at those forms that Claudine Ratcliffe filled out. Can you point out the area, first of all, in the photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This area here, (Indicating), and this mottled area here, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: I know the Court can't see it. My representation would be that the doctor pointed to the area just above the left side of the chin.

MR. KELBERG: And would you point again, doctor, to another area.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Below the left cheek area, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: And the left cheek area of the photograph B-18?

THE COURT: The Court is familiar with the photographs.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry, B-1.

THE COURT: The Court is familiar with the photograph.

MR. KELBERG: And again we are going to get into a much more detailed discussion of lividity, but for purpose of our discussion, doctor, what is it and how does it have significance, if any, to you?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Lividity is the draining of blood, after the circulation has ceased, to the dependent parts of the body by the action of gravity causing discoloration in areas which are not under pressure, so--

MR. KELBERG: Let me--if I could, could I have our exhibit 354 board, if you will just slide it this way--don't. Thank you, doctor. Because you have used some terms, dependent part of the body and so forth. Can you use photographs cS-11--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: --to demonstrate what you are talking about, dependent part of the body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. In cS-11 you see the left side of the face of Miss Nicole Brown Simpson is the most dependent part of the body touching the ground, and almost touching the ground except for the interspersed right hand I discussed earlier. So the discoloration which I showed you in B-13 is the draining of blood to that area, because of this position she ultimately came to rest after death, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, when you are talking about dependent part of the body, in essence are you saying the lowest part of the body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: In that position, yes, for--

MR. KELBERG: And obviously that can change depending on the position of the body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: But in this particular photograph cS-11, with respect to the face, the dependent part of the face is which side?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The left side of the face.

MR. KELBERG: And then is the appearance of lividity that you have identified in B-13 consistent with what you would expect to see from a body that had been in that position?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is there anything--I'm sorry. Umm, you mentioned on B-16 I think the thyrohyoid area; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And in your testimony, as I recall, you used the term a cornu, C-O-R-N-U; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is that area shown in some fashion in photograph B-16?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is approximately shown here on the right side here, (Indicating). This is the thyroid cartilage I am pointing to in B-16 and the cornu, C-O-R-N-U, are also known as horns, H-O-R-N-S, thyroid horns. They are situated at the back of the upper part of the thyroid cartilage on both sides. And this right cornu was also incised by the same wound as it was traversing from left to right.

MR. KELBERG: Incidentally, doctor, this wound in B-16 is in a gaping state; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: You talked about lines of Langer or Langers lines. Do those lines come into play in this issue of the gaping--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: In this situation the neck has almost been sliced half from front to back, so it is more than this line of Langer. All the structures here have been cut so that the wound--the neck is not as stable as it should be because the spine has also been cut. So you have--and also the positioning of the body when you take a photograph--

MR. KELBERG: Keep your voice up, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: --when you take a photograph of the front wound, because of the gaping wound, you see more gaping.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, did you find that in Dr. Golden's original protocol he described this major stab/incise wound that we have seen in the photographs B-13, B-16 and the small portion in B-18?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Did Dr. Golden also diagram, in one or more of the forms that you have previously identified, that same injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, he has.

MR. KELBERG: Did he in his original protocol or his original diagrams identify the injury to the right cornu?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, he did not.

MR. KELBERG: Is that a mistake for him not to have addressed that in his protocol?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is a mistake.

MR. KELBERG: Is it a mistake of his not to have diagrammed that in one or more of the diagram forms available?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It was a mistake.

MR. KELBERG: And doctor, have you considered those mistakes--those are two mistakes then; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Have you considered those mistakes as to their significance on all these issues you have been asked about?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: In your opinion does that mistake of failing to identify it in the protocol and the mistake of failing to diagram it have any significance on any of the issues that you have addressed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Why not?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because that is an ear injury in a massive injury to the neck, and most importantly, the neck organ was saved and is available for review and that is how I saw it. And to me it has no significance as far as the cause of death goes or in explaining what I just explained regarding aspiration and other issues, and it is a mistake, but it is not of significance for any of the issues as far as the cause of death, bleeding patterns and evaluating the injury.

MR. KELBERG: Does it have any significance in your ability to assess the class of knife or classes of knives which could be responsible for inflicting that major stab/incise wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, because the--the cornu has been incised so it could be both a single-edged or a double-edged knife. Anybody with a sharp edge could have caused that transection of the cornu.

MR. KELBERG: So this is one of the sharp force injuries that you are not able to distinguish by the appearance of the injury itself, whether it is a single-edge or a double-edge?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: But it is a sharp force injury that is consistent with a six-inch long single-edged knife blade?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, but I would favor it being a single-edged because there is one area, which if you look at B-18, the wound started as an incise wound, but then there is a bridge here, (Indicating), following that, which I would favor a single-edged knife, but because a double-edged knife would not leave a bridge there, because a single-edge knife, when you start using the sharp portion of the knife to make the cut and then you do the penetrating part, the blunt edge will leave a bridge there. And that is why this photograph is important, (Indicating), that this wound, even though I can't say with full certainty that it is only a single-edged knife, I would favor a single-edged knife, but a double-edged knife could do--can create a wound of similar nature.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, just for the record--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: And you can see the bridge better if you use the magnifying glass.

MR. KELBERG: I think you may be seeing with the magnifying glass, but I'm afraid the jurors probably can't see it from where they are seated, but for the record, doctor, you were pointing to an area on B-18 that is two--it is the left side of the neck area and it is the area that is immediately adjacent to where there appears to be that side of this major stab/incise wound; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, it is--yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is there anything else of significance to you with respect to these three photographs, with particularity on this stab/incise wound, that we have not discussed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Before we move to the more detailed description of the other stab wounds, if we could have just a moment to set up the easels and maybe ask all counsel to help us out a bit to give us a little room.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Given our problems, here, counsel why don't you step to the well and you are welcome to do so.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Kelberg.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Dr. Lakshmanan, we have up on the left side the blow-up of what is exhibit 349, the protocol?

THE COURT: Excuse me. Mr. Lynch, I think you are blocking juror no. 7's view.

MR. KELBERG: Perhaps Mr. Lynch can come over here.

THE COURT: Let me just check. 165, can you see these items?

MR. KELBERG: Dr. Lakshmanan, you may be blocking.

JUROR NO. 165: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, this is the blow-up of the actual original protocol; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What page or pages in this protocol reflects Dr. Golden's identification of this major stab/incise wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I think it is page 3 and 4.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: And I'm going to ask Mr. Lynch to turn to page 3. If you need some help--

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, on this page, where, if at all, do you see the start of any description regarding that injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is page 3 in the bottom of the page. It says, "Description of incise wound of neck and evidence of injury" and then it starts the description of the wound and then continues to page 4.

MR. KELBERG: All right. Before we flip to page 4, your Honor, for the record, I'm going to mark "B-13, 16, 18" along the left margin of page 3 by the description where Dr. Lakshmanan has identified.

MR. KELBERG: And now, if we could continue on.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Page 4 continues the description of what I just discussed. It also discusses the injury to the carotid artery, the jugular vein. And what I would like to point out as the description of the right jugular vein where there is only a quarter-inch cut whereas the internal jugular vein on the left side is almost transected which again would support my opinion that the left side was a deeper part of the wound than the right side which was shallower.

MR. KELBERG: And doctor, does this entire page cover aspects of the description and opinion from Dr. Golden regarding that same injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, so I may also mark similar along the left side "B-13, B-16, B-18" of that series.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor we have to the left of Mr. Lynch a blow-up of another one of the exhibits from 349 and it is smaller version in the 348 series. Is this one of the diagrams that was used by Dr. Golden with respect to drawing in observations made during the course of the autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Does this diagram contain any reference to this stab/incise wound that we have been discussing over the last few minutes?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Will you step perhaps to the--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It shows the wound in the left neck going up the mid-portion of the left neck up to the lower right ear. It is a diagrammatic representation.

MR. KELBERG: And doctor, does there appear to be any description or writing made by Dr. Golden reflecting his observations of that wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. This particular handwriting here refers to this wound, (Indicating), and it--you can also--starts with "Edges smooth" and continues up to here, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: When you say the words "Edges smooth," is that consistent with your examination of the margins of that stab/incise wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And the significance of the edges being smooth?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I discussed that it is a single cut and in my opinion there was not any resistance offered.

MR. KELBERG: By Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, where Dr. Golden has--I'm sorry, Dr. Lakshmanan has testified regarding the entries by Dr. Golden on this form, may the record reflect I have encircled the area in red and on the big diagram form 22 and I am writing out at the edge "B-13, B-16, B18."

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, I'm going to ask Mr. Lynch, if he would, to take down 22 and put up another form--by the way, that was on board 3B and I can't tell the number--I think that is 0B, the protocol, the original protocol, but I will verify that when we get it down. It is on the other side.

MR. LYNCH: It is.

MR. KELBERG: 0B Mr. Lynch confirms.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is this a form 20 that is used by Dr. Golden in the course of the autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And is there an entry by Dr. Golden on this form with respect to that same neck injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. You can see it on the neck going from the left side of the mid-part of the neck to the upper right neck below the ear, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: And is there any writing that you attribute from Dr. Golden to that particular injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: When it says "Trans" here that means transfers and going up here, this part here, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: And your Honor, where Dr. Lakshmanan has testified regarding the diagram by Dr. Golden on form 20, I'm circling it in red and out at the side writing "B-13, B-16, B-18." Now, I'm going to ask Mr. Lynch to put up a copy of the addendum report--I'm sorry, before he does so, if I may just have a moment to get a different diagram.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: I'm going to ask that this board, which is 6B be put up. By the way, 20, was 2B.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, there is a form 24; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: This is another one of the forms used by Dr. Golden in the course of the autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And is there any entry or markings on this form that reflect upon this same injury we have been discussing?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Here is showing the injury to the thyrohyoid here, (Indicating), and given this description, so this and this whole area and this whole area would reflect the--internal description of the injury to the neck which I just opined on.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, does this form depict in a diagrammatic fashion the cornu or horn area that you talked about earlier this morning?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, because there is a lot of writing here. He used this part. This is the thyroid cartilage, the side view. This is the cornu area of the thyroid cartilage and you can see it here, too, it may be difficult to see, but you can see on it both sides. This is the thyroid cartilage area, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if you could stay there for just a moment, if I write in "Thyroid cartilage," and would you point out again the horns.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Umm--

MR. KELBERG: Starting down here, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: (Witness complies.)

MR. KELBERG: All right. I will circle that area, doctor. And where is it on the other side, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: I will circle that area and draw lines and write the word "Horns"?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: And in this picture you can see that here, the front view, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: In that area, doctor, I will circle in red and write "Horns" to represent what you've identified. And all of the writing in this upper right quadrant of form 24?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Yes, and also this side, (Indicating), because there is the description of the thyroid area but here he describes the left palm and carotid artery transectioned. LIJV is left internal jugular vein, "Subtotal jugular transection thin strand" which is the portion of the vein which is left there, and on the right side it says, "Right internal jugular vein only nick, right palm and carotid artery transected," so this all would belong to the injury we described.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, "Subtotal" is a fancy way of saying what? Subtotal transection?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Almost transectioned with only a small bridge of the vein wall left in the back.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, where the doctor has indicated there has been an entry by Dr. Golden on this diagram, I have encircled it with a red pen and I will write in the upper left-hand corner, "B-13, B-16, B-18."

MR. KELBERG: By the way, doctor, there is a stamp that appears in the upper right corner of that diagram. Do you see that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: How does that stamp come to be on these forms?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We have a blue card just like your credit card. We make a credit card for every case we have in our office and you just take the card and you imprint any form or diagram you want to use so you have the number, the name, and you can see we also have the crypt number that we discussed yesterday.

MR. KELBERG: That is what I was going to--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Number 4. No. 4.

MR. KELBERG: So if I circle this, "No. 4," and I will write in "Crypt number" on the diagram, that is what her crypt number was as assigned?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Okay. Any other injuries on this particular diagram?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Incidentally, doctor, is it--with respect to either the right upper quadrant or the right lower quadrant of this diagram that you would have expected Dr. Golden to have made an entry regarding the cornu?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, he has drawn a number of lines in the thyrohyoid area, but he has not specifically addressed that the right cornu was incised.

MR. KELBERG: Is that where you would have expected to him do so, in the upper right quadrant diagram?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And that board was 6B, your Honor, 24. And Mr. Lynch is now putting up--is now putting up our blow-up of the addendum report.

MR. KELBERG: Is that correct, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: This is the addendum report, the final addendum report?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is there a page or pages of the addendum report which address the cornu injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Page 2, no. 2, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: All right. We will ask Mr. Lynch, if he could.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Where you have just pointed with the pointer, this is the entry by Dr. Golden to reflect the injury that you observed in the right cornu?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And I think that is pretty self-explanatory, your Honor. All I did was circle the area, item 2 on page 2 and I will write "B-13, B-16, B-18."

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, let me--I will ask Mr. Lynch to get that down. I think we are done with this for the moment.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: That board was 8B.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: May I have just a moment, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes. And Mr. Kelberg, we will be going to 10:30 this morning.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, let me invite your attention now specifically to the photo on exhibit 352. I think counsel may want to move back. I think we are done with the two easels down there, B-18. And now with respect to these four stab wounds that you identified earlier--and briefly, have they been given arbitrary numbers?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And by "Arbitrary," what do you mean?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is they were just given numbers for convenience. They do not--do not reflect sequence of infliction.

MR. KELBERG: So if you have a wound that is injury no. 1 or stab wound no. 1, it doesn't mean that that was the first stab wound that was inflicted; is that accurate?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: And in this photograph, how many stab wounds do you see to the left side of the neck of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There are four; 1, 2, 3, 4, and three of them are really stab wounds. One of them is a superficial sharp force injury there.

MR. KELBERG: When you say "Superficial sharp force injury" in defining, as you did yesterday, incise wound as being longer than they are deep and stab wound as being deeper than they are long, how would you define this one?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, it could be the tip of the knife barely penetrating the upper part of the skin and soft tissue or it could be a nick from the knife. It is difficult to be specific on it because it is a very superficial wound. There is no depth which was available to analyze it.

MR. KELBERG: Let's start with kind of a collective question. Injuries 1, 3 and 4, from your examination of the appearance of those wounds in this photograph, do you have an opinion as to the class or classes of knives which could inflict each of those wounds?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: My opinion is that they were all three caused by a single-edged and each of the wounds have a blunt end and a sharp end.

MR. KELBERG: Start with injury no. 1 and just use the pointer. I don't think we are going to be able--at some point perhaps the injury will have a magnifying glass and an opportunity to look for that, but if you will start by just pointing, which is the blunt end and which is the sharp end of each?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Injury no. 1 you can see the blunt end of the lower part and the sharp end in the upper end.

MR. KELBERG: So as we look at photograph, the blunt end is going to be toward the bottom of the photo?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And the sharp end is going to be toward the top?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: All right. How about injury no. 3?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The sharp end is in the posterior part and the blunt end is in the front.

MR. KELBERG: When you say "Posterior," for our purposes is that to the right side of the photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: And the sharp end is to the left side?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And how about injury no. 4?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The blunt end is to the left side of the photograph, the sharp end is to the right side of the photograph.

MR. KELBERG: How about injury no. 2, are you able to form an opinion as to the class or classes of knives which created that sharp force injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Injury no. 2 I can't tell. It would be either be a single-edge or double-edged.

MR. KELBERG: In your opinion could all four of these stab wounds be caused by the same single-edged knife blade?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: You described one that was six inches long?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, because as we discussed yesterday, these stab wounds, if you read the description, only have a depth of one and a half to two inches, so you don't have to have necessarily the entire knife penetrate in this area, so you could have a six-inch knife with a tapering blade which would have caused these injuries.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, does Dr. Golden describe each of these four stab wounds in his original protocol?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, he does.

MR. KELBERG: Does he diagram each of these four stab wound in one or more diagrams?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, he does.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, given the area where these stab wounds were received, and given the nature of the major stab/incise wound that you have described earlier in the three photographs, 13, 16 and 18, can you determine, as a forensic pathologist, whether, for example, starting with stab wound no. 1, that stab wound actually punctured or struck in any way either the jugular vein on the left side or the carotid artery on the left side?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Dr. Golden's description is that they may have endured these vessels, but because of the massive transection of the jugular vein of the left side and complete transection of the carotid artery on the left side, he could not see whether there was injury from these four--these three wounds which I have discussed, because in their depth the region of the injury, which they caused by the track in the body was the same area which had already been endured by the major incise/stab wound.

MR. KELBERG: When you say already--you have testified your opinion was that the major stab/incise wound came last; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And if in fact that is what occurred and these four stab wounds were already inflicted, would that last stab wound, in essence, create damage over whatever damage to the jugular and/or carotid had been inflicted by one or more of the four stab wounds?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the opinion which was given in the report which indicates that the injury, the massive injury to the carotid artery and jugular vein on the left side, precluded him from evaluating injuries from these stab wounds.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in your opinion could Dr. Golden have made a more complete or detailed evaluation through dissection of the area to see if there was a way to state with greater certainty whether either the carotid or jugular was actually nicked or hit by any one of these three stab wounds, four stab wounds?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The--there could have been a little more dissection of the carotid vessels on either side of the transection because the vein is difficult to dissect because it will fall apart. It is a very thin wall structured by the carotid artery. Could have been opened on both sides of the transection to see if there were any nicks. And the report doesn't reflect whether that was done or not, but definitely it doesn't indicate that there was additional cuts.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if that had been done, would it necessarily have allowed Dr. Golden to see whether any one of those stab wounds did in fact hit the jugular and/or carotid?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Umm, if he had done the dissection he could have said that he did the dissection and he didn't see it, which would support his original opinion wherein he had indicated that he could not evaluate the injury to the structures because of the massive injury caused by the fatal stab wound which was inflicted last.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, assuming that Dr. Golden failed to do the kind of dissection, more detailed dissection that you have indicated, would that be a mistake, in your opinion, in the manner in which he conducted the autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Umm, if he had not done the dissection it would be a mistake, but if he had done the dissection and not reported it, it would not be a mistake.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry, not recorded it?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: If his evaluation included that he had done the dissection but he had not stated as such, then it would not be a mistake.

MR. KELBERG: But if he didn't do the dissection it would be a mistake?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I would do the dissection to see whether there is additional injuries there.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if Dr. Golden did not do the dissection, in your opinion, would such a failure have any significance to you on any of the issues that you have been talking about?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Including on whether a single single-edged knife could have caused all of these sharp force injuries?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: Why would that have no significance?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because we can--the opinion on the nature of the sharp force instrument can be made from the wound patterns on the skin. The bleeding patterns have been described from the vascular injuries which I already discussed, so really it is not significant to the cause of death or the manner of death or the bleeding blood flow patterns.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if I could have the board--not the pointer, I'm sorry--the board that has been marked as 354, let's--this is one of the crime scene photographs. Assume for the sake of argument that stab wound no. 1 did not strike either the left carotid artery or the left jugular vein. Would that stab wound, nevertheless, have caused some bleeding?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, it would. It is a highly vascular area of the neck.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: A highly vascular area of the neck.

MR. KELBERG: When you say "Highly vascular," what does that mean in lay--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The term--has got a lot of branches from the arteries and a lot of venous channels, and a wound to this area of the neck, which is one and one-half to two inches deep would cause significant bleeding.

MR. KELBERG: And if in fact either the jugular or the carotid or both had been hit, what kind of bleeding, over and above bleeding without such a nick, would you expect?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There would be more bleeding.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, is there a difference between the stab wound, what it can do to the carotid or jugular, and the incise stab wound that you identified as transecting?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yeah. The--if it just punctures the carotid artery you will have spurting of blood by transection. Also you can have spurting but you will have more bleeding because the whole vessels has been transected and also the person will lose blood pressure much faster and die earlier with the transection than just from a puncture. So the severity for a puncture wound would be longer than a transection.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, let me invite your attention to another photograph from our exhibit 354 that is marked cS-12 and again I will ask you to assume that this photograph is a fair and accurate representation of the position and condition surrounding Nicole Brown Simpson as her body was found on June 13th, 1994. And now I want to invite your attention specifically to a step that appears immediately above her body in that photograph. Do you see that, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And do you see what appears to be blood surrounding that--part of the area of that step?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I see that.

MR. KELBERG: In looking at the quantity of blood, assuming it is the blood of Nicole Brown Simpson, is that amount of blood seen there consistent with what you would expect from the four stab wounds that we are looking at on B-18?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Why is that, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because as I told you, the area of the neck is quite vascular and whether they struck the jugular vein or carotid artery, or they did not, still combined they would cause significant bleeding which would account for this blood here, (Indicating), if the--Miss Simpson's upper portion of the body had been in contact with that area.

MR. KELBERG: After the wound had--wound or wounds had been inflicted?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Does the Court wish to take a break at this point?

THE COURT: Yes. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take our regular recess at this time. Please remember all my admonitions to you. Do not discuss the case among yourselves, do not form any opinions about the case, do not conduct any deliberations until the matter has been submitted to you, do not allow anybody to contact or communicate with you with regard to the case. We will stand in recess for fifteen minutes.

(Recess.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Back on the record in the Simpson matter. All parties are again present. Let's have the jurors, please.

(Brief pause.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Let the record reflect we have been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Dr. Lakshmanan is still on the witness stand undergoing direct examination by Mr. Kelberg. And Mr. Kelberg, you may continue with your direct examination.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. And again, with the Court's permission, could Dr. Lakshmanan step down, and we will put the photographic board--and maybe all counsel and Drs. Baden and Wolf will wish to retake their position.

THE COURT: Which board are you putting up, Mr. Kelberg?

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry?

THE COURT: Which board are you putting up?

MR. KELBERG: 352 again, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I would like to now go into a more detailed description from you of stab wound no. 1 and then go through the series of the four stab wounds.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Stab wound no. 1 is--

MR. KELBERG: Keep your voice up again, please?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Stab wound no. 1 is located on the left neck and it measures 7/16 of an inch by 1/8 of an inch in the photographic measurement I did.

MR. KELBERG: 7/16 of an inch in what direction, doctor? Can you show us with the pointer?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: In a superior interior direction.

MR. KELBERG: More or less up and down?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, (Indicating), and 3/16 inch in the transverse or anthroposterior access as I'm pointing here, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: Side to side?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: All right.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: So this is the wound, when I measured it, in the state I could see it in the photograph, in the one-as-to-one photograph which I had.

MR. KELBERG: The life-size photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: The wound in Dr. Golden's measurement is 5/8 inch in length, in his description. The blunt end, as I mentioned earlier, is in the inferior part and the sharp end is in the upper part of the wound, and this wound penetrated the left side of the neck in a left to right direction and was up to two inches in-depth.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, from the information in Dr. Golden's protocol and your evaluation of the life-size photograph, can you tell us anything about the relative positions of the perpetrator and Nicole Brown Simpson at the time stab wound no. 1 was inflicted?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Could you expand on your question? You want more information?

MR. KELBERG: Yes. Doctor, for example, when I say "Relative positions," can you say whether the two were, relatively speaking, face-to-face, one was behind the other? Can you give us any additional information from that stab wound no. 1?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It could be a situation where they were facing each other and the assailant had a weapon in the right hand and that wound could have been inflicted in that manner.

MR. KELBERG: Excuse me. I will step over back here again. Can you use me as Nicole Brown Simpson, just to show, relatively speaking--incidentally, when you use the term, and I used the term "Relative positions," what does that mean to you as a forensic pathologist?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It just means the positions in which these wounds could have been inflicted by the medical findings one has.

MR. KELBERG: All right. Can you use me as Nicole Brown Simpson and indicate how in your opinion the--Nicole Brown Simpson and the perpetrator could have been face-to-face and have the stab wound no. 1 inflicted with a right-handed held knife?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: In this manner, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: And your Honor, for the record, Dr. Lakshmanan with his right hand, clenched fist representing holding a knife, has raised his arm above my left shoulder and has it angled at about a 45-degree angle towards my neck.

THE COURT: All right. Why don't you trade places so that the jurors can actually see the right arm.

MR. KELBERG: All right.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, let's ask you to do that again.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The knife in question is a single-edged knife and the blunt edge would be on the lower part and the sharp edge would be the upper part corresponding to the wound.

MR. KELBERG: Is that consistent with what you see in fact in stab wound no. 1?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor are there other relative positions that could account for that--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There could be other positions, too.

MR. KELBERG: Is there any way for you as a forensic pathologist to be able to say with specificity what was the actual relative positions?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Is there any way, given that you cannot say with specificity the relative positions, that you can say whether the knife was being held by the right hand or the left hand of the perpetrator?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I cannot say that. I cannot say which hand.

MR. KELBERG: And does the hand depend on what the actual--I will tell you what--does the hand that has the knife then depend--a finding depend on the relative positions at the time the wound was inflicted?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: Now, can you do basically the same identification process for stab wound no. 2, or I'm sorry, sharp force injury no. 2?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Sharp force injury no. 2, I'm pointing to it right now, (Indicating), 1/8 inch, superficial. It is a superficial puncture/incise wound.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in your opinion would that superficial incise wound create any extensive bleeding?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Incidentally, stab wound no. 1, if it did in fact strike either the left jugular vein or the left carotid artery, would that wound in your opinion be fatal if there was no medical intervention?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It could be potentially serious wound if the carotid artery and jugular vein was injured.

MR. KELBERG: My question is would it, in your opinion, be a fatal wound if in fact Nicole Brown Simpson did not receive immediate and appropriate medical care?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: If she did not receive proper medical care it could be a potentially serious fatal wound.

MR. KELBERG: I would assume a fatal wound is a serious wound. In your opinion is it a fatal wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, in fact if there had been such a striking of the jugular or--and/or carotid, could that wound be fatal even with immediate and proper medical intervention?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It could be fatal.

MR. KELBERG: Now, stab--I'm sorry--sharp force injury no. 2, in your opinion is that a non-fatal injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And other than being a superficial incise wound, does it have any significant bearing on the cause of death of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Is there anything else about--I'm sorry. Can you tell anything about the relative position of Nicole Brown Simpson and the perpetrator from the appearance of that sharp force injury no. 2?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The same statements I applied to the stab wound no. 1 would apply to this.

MR. KELBERG: So in the relative positions of face-to-face that you showed, that is a possibility?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is a possibility and it could also be the person who had the weapon in the left hand and was in the back, that same kind of wound could have been inflicted in a left or right direction.

MR. KELBERG: If it was face-to-face again it would be a knife held in the right hand?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, stab wound no. 3, in the photograph B-18, a description of that, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This stab wound, (Indicating), is transversely oriented. That is side-to-side in this photograph, in contrast to the other wound which is more in a vertical orientation, so this is more in a horizontal orientation. It has got a blunt end in the front and a sharp end in the back and this wound measures 5/16 inch by 3/16 inch in the state of the photography reviewed in the one-as-to-one photograph.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, from your review of the life-size photograph, is your measurement consistent with any measurement made by Dr. Golden, given limitations of measurements from photographs that you described yesterday?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There is no significant difference if you take the limitations of the process into consideration.

MR. KELBERG: And those limitations were?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I discussed them yesterday. The photograph I'm viewing is a two-dimensional photograph. It is a slightly gaping wound. Dr. Golden approximated the wound when he did the measurement and when you approximate, you know, the wound can be longer because he measured it as a half an inch long wound and this--and also indicated that--the other problem when you do photographic measurement is that when you have a curvature like this, the neck is a curved area of the body, your measurement of the photograph doesn't take into consideration the curvature component which you would do in a real life measurement when you are measuring the wound in an approximated. State so given those limitations, his measurements are not significantly different from mine.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, is in your opinion stab wound no. 3 a potentially fatal stab wound if in fact it struck either the carotid or the jugular?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And the same would apply if it struck both, I assume?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: If it did not strike either would it be a fatal stab wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Would it still be a stab wound that would produce significant bleeding?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: How about stab wound no. 4? Can you give us some more detailed information?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Stab wound no. 4 is the lower most wound. It also has the same horizontal orientation. It has got a sharp end on the right side of the photograph and a blunt end on the front of the photograph. And this wound in its gaping state measured 9/16 inch by 3/8 of an inch, the 9/16 inch being the horizontal component and 3/8 being the vertical component. And Dr. Golden measured his wound in his original notes as 7/8 inch in the approximated state, and given the limitations of the process, I saw no significant difference attributable to my measurements. And this wound also is a track in the body about one and a half inches.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, I don't think I asked you on stab wound no. 3 about relative positions. Would your answers be the same as to relative positions of Nicole Brown Simpson and the perpetrator in a right-handed or left-handed nature of the knife being held as they were for stab wound 1 and 2?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: All right. Now, stab wound no. 4, excuse me, if that had--stab wound had in fact hit in any fashion, either the jugular or the carotid, would that stab wound be a fatal stab wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And if it hit both, a fatal stab wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And if it neither, a non-fatal stab wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Would it still be a stab wound which would produce significant bleeding if it struck neither the carotid or the jugular?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Would your--I'm sorry, did you want to add something?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Would your answers about relative positions of the perpetrator and Nicole Brown and the right-handed or left-handed nature of holding the knife be the same for stab wound no. 4 as they have been for stab wound 1, 2 and 3?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is there any significance to you, as a forensic pathologist, that these four stab wounds appear to have a linear relationship if one goes from the stab wound no. 1 to sharp force injury no. 2, to stab wound no. 3, to stab wound no. 4?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. It does have a significance because they are all localized to one area of the neck which would signify that there was some limitation of movement created at least to the neck area when these wounds were inflicted by the assailant, because they are localized to one area, more or less in the same area. And there is some movement, because one wound is not as deep as the other, but still it would signify some partial immobilization, at least because given the localized area of all these four stab wounds on that area.

MR. KELBERG: When you say immobilization, immobilization of who or what?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Miss Brown Simpson by the assailant.

MR. KELBERG: And immobilization is a long word to mean in essence what?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Prevent movement of the person by holding them or holding them against a wall or just holding them tight so that you have some control over them that they cannot exert the same degree of movement as you would expect in a person who is not so compromised.

MR. KELBERG: If a person were not so compromised, would you expect that person to try to avoid being struck by the knife?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. KELBERG: And your answer, doctor, is?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, is there anything else, with respect to a description of these four sharp force injuries along the neck as seen in photograph B-18, you wish to bring out?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: If we could move them, we are going to go back to the protocols and the diagrams.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: And I will ask Mr. Lynch when he is at that position, we are putting 0B up, and we are putting--which is the protocol, and we are putting 3B up which is our form, I believe, 22.

(Brief pause.)

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, did Dr. Golden address each of these four sharp force injuries that we have been looking at in B-18 in his original autopsy report?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, he has.

MR. KELBERG: Where?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: On page 5 and 6 of the report.

MR. KELBERG: If Mr. Lynch can turn to page 5 of the protocol blow-up.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, where does that start?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: 1, 2, 3 and 4 is the same numbers which I used when I described photograph B.

MR. KELBERG: 18 I believe it is?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: B-18, yes, so it follows the same format.

MR. KELBERG: All right. Your Honor, then on page 5 of the protocol in the upper left-hand corner under "Description and multiple stab wound," I'm writing "B-18." I will leave it at that.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. KELBERG: And you said--it continues on to page 6 is it, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, no. 4 stab wound the 7/8 wound which I discussed last continues on to page 6.

MR. KELBERG: If Mr. Lynch could flip that, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Just the first two paragraphs.

MR. KELBERG: Would it be accurate, doctor, that the description on B-18 ends where I've got the red marker here, (Indicating)?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And so your Honor, with that red marker I'm making a u-shaped box, if you will, around those two photographs on page 6 and writing "B-18" within the margin.

THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, did Dr. Golden diagram in any fashion on any of the diagrams those four sharp force injuries?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, he did.

MR. KELBERG: Is it seen in diagram 22?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Would you show us, please, where.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I'm going to--

MR. KELBERG: And keep your voice up, please, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The four stab wounds are diagrammed on the left side of the neck, in the lower right quadrant of this board, 1, 3, 4 and 2 is here, (Indicating), and you also have the description of all the wounds described.

MR. KELBERG: Well, let's start--first of all, where do you see the description for the four stab wounds?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: One description is here, (Indicating), and then 2 and then you have stab wound no. 3 here, (Indicating), and 4 here, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: All right. Doctor--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: So the whole thing is the description for all the four stab wounds.

MR. KELBERG: So basically it is the lower half of form 22 which has been used by Dr. Golden?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: To identify and describe those four sharp force injuries?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, and to repeat, this is no. 1, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: All right. Let me just mark that. Which is no. 1, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: All right. I'm going to put a box around that on the diagram and write in "SW no. 1."

DR. LAKSHMANAN: And actually this includes also because it says, "Three inches below the EAC" which is external auditory canal. From here it is three inches below here, (Indicating), so that should be included, too.

MR. KELBERG: All right. I will raise the even circled area on the lower right-hand side of the diagram to include that.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I'm sorry. Can you all see? No. 1 is this 1/8 superficial wound here which I alluded to here which is no. 2, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: All right. In that area, doctor, I'm going to circle where you have just been pointing and write "SW--actually "SF" for sharp force no. 2.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: All right. How about no. 3?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. 3 is here, (Indicating), and the orientation is here and this half an inch and this is the--

MR. KELBERG: All right. Would it be accurate to say, doctor, that the area I'm circling now in the form, taking in the right lower quadrant, is the area of the diagram of sharp force injuries 1, 3 and 4?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: So I'm going to mark "SW no. 1, SW no. 3, SW no. 4," and then the area that you circled or with the pointer outlined in the lower left quadrant of form 22 I'm circling and I will write in this is "SW no. 3"; is that correct, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: All right. Now, where is the description with respect to the fourth wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Here, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: And I will circle that area and write "SW no. 4." Doctor, can you identify the content of Dr. Golden's description there for us?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is--he described as a 7/8 inch wound, 1/32 blunt end in the front, sharp end in the back and one-to-one and a half inches deep, and if you look at the same description here, one to one and a half inches.

MR. KELBERG: "Here" was a reference to page 6 of the autopsy form no. 12. Doctor, anything further with respect to identification on these four sharp force injuries on diagram 22?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. And--for this diagram that is it.

MR. KELBERG: Was any other diagram used by Dr. Golden regarding these?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, no.

MR. KELBERG: Was there any reference to these four sharp force injuries in Dr. Golden's addendum?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Was there any need, from your perspective, for any reference in the addendum?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: While we are in this position, let me cover just a couple of brief points, if we could.

THE COURT: All right. You have put up 1B.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. You've got a position to see that.

MR. KELBERG: And this is a blow-up, doctor, is it part of the form 15 document?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, in the upper part of that document there is a date and time listed. Do you see that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And that time is to reflect what?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Usually that is the time the autopsy is started.

MR. KELBERG: And the class a is checked?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And that is what you indicated is the fullest type of autopsy performed in your office; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: You also testified yesterday, I believe, regarding a mix-up in identification of a specimen between urine and bile; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Does this form show that front page that was completed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is not--it is not on Miss Simpson's 15.

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Goldman's?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yeah, but the form doesn't reflect the mistake because the form was correctly marked as bile in there. What was marked wrongly was the bottle. You see, the bottle has spaces--the wrong box was marked off on the bottle, so not on the 15.

MR. KELBERG: Okay.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: So that doesn't apply to this form.

MR. KELBERG: And there is a box marked "Witnesses to autopsy" which has been checked and there appear to be the name of "Vannatter and Lange, LAPD 6/14/94"?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And that is to reflect officers Vannatter and Lange were present to observe the autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, if we could flip this to the next form, 16, now, you mentioned that this type of form is used to write in a lot of information as the autopsy is performed; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And it also includes a reference to the time over which the autopsy was conducted, the formal autopsy; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And in this case is there an entry by Dr. Golden for that time?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And where is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: In the lower part of the form. The autopsy was started at 8:30 and completed at 10:30 from the inscriptions on this form.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I'm just going to outline that box with red on this form 16.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, also, is this from an external exam list of areas an indication by Dr. Golden regarding the height and weight of ms. Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And in this case is the height listed as 65 inches as I am outlining in red?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And is the weight listed as 129, we will assume, pounds?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you. I think we are done with that.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: I think we will go back to the photo board, if we could, please.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is there anything else that you wish to bring to the attention of the ladies and gentlemen of the jury regarding those four stab wounds or sharp force injuries?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: I would like to move just briefly to what is obviously a cropped photograph that is right next to you in the lower series of photographs that I believe is marked B-10. Is that the designation of a better view of it than I, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, again just to be clear, this is cropped pursuant to the order of the Court, correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And you viewed the full photograph both in the set of sizes these are in general and also in the life-size photographs; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is shown in B-10?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It shows a small reddish brown abrasion in the right side of the face a short distance from the eyebrow area.

MR. KELBERG: Now, you talked about an abrasion yesterday being a blunt force trauma type injury; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And is the color that you see of that abrasion of any significance to you in evaluating when in relationship to death that injury was received by Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It was antemortem abrasion. That means it happened when she was alive.

MR. KELBERG: How can you tell?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: From the appearance of the coloration.

MR. KELBERG: What is the coloration?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Reddish brown color we have here, would indicate it is an antemortem abrasion.

MR. KELBERG: Why is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because it shows evidence of vital reaction photographically.

MR. KELBERG: "Vital reaction" meaning?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That it happened during when the person was alive.

MR. KELBERG: Is vital reaction something regarding how the body is reacting?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is the body reacting to? I would like to get a definition of that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically when you have an injury indicated that you will have inflammatory response and sometimes bleeding. Here there is no bleeding but you have the reddish brown color because of the vascularity of the structures underlining it. And there is no microscopic section available of this area, but looking at it from my experience and the appearance of this wound, it is a wound which happened when she was alive.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, can you identify any source for the abrasion that you see in that photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is a nonspecific type of abrasion. There is no pattern to it. So any rough surface could have caused this type of abrasion which could be--any type of rough surface could have caused this. Depending on what kind of items are given as a hypothetical situations, we can discuss it further.

MR. KELBERG: From your visits to the 875 south Bundy location--and you testified yesterday you did examine the environmental surroundings there for looking for sources for blunt force trauma--can you--did you find any that would be consistent with being a source for this particular abrasion identified in B-10?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. There is--there is a staircase there and there is a wall, a metal side wall, and this could be from the wall where there is enough surface from the wall.

MR. KELBERG: How is that inflicted then between a rough surface of a wall and the area of the body where this abrasion is seen?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, the head could have come in contact with the wall. That would be one way it could have been caused.

MR. KELBERG: Come in contact in what fashion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Being pushed against the wall.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, could you slide the photograph board--just slide it down for me and take a look for a second.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: May I have just a moment, your Honor, and I think it will be helpful, doctor, if you slide the board back the other way so microphone is not covered.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in your opinion, is that particular abrasion a non-fatal blunt force trauma injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is it of any significance to the cause of Nicole Brown Simpson's death?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Is it something which would allow you, as a forensic pathologist, to identify with specificity the manner in which it was inflicted?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Is there any way that you as a forensic pathologist can tell us, in the sequence of wounds that were received by Nicole Brown Simpson, when that was, other than to say it was received while she was alive?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Did Dr. Golden describe this particular abrasion in his original autopsy protocol?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, he did, and he also diagrammed it. He described it in page 8 of his autopsy protocol.

MR. KELBERG: Before we move, page 8--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Diagram 22.

MR. KELBERG: All right. If we could ask counsel to move briefly.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: And doctors Baden and Wolf as well. (Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. You have put up again B0 and--

MR. KELBERG: 3B, your Honor.

THE COURT: --3B.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry, doctor, page 8 was it?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: We need another few inches to help out.

MR. KELBERG: All right, doctor. Can you find on page 8 where there is a description?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Fifth paragraph: "External injuries of the scalp, small abrasion, reddish brown measuring 3/8 by quarter inch appearing to be antemortem is found lateral to eyebrow."

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, may the record reflect with the red marker I am circling that area. I am writing "B-10" on the left margin of that on page 8 of the form 12 protocol.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, would you identify on form 22 where Dr. Golden has described it or diagrammed it.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Diagrammed it here, (Indicating), and you can see the description here.

MR. KELBERG: All right. First of all, where he diagrammed it, I will circle that area, and this is in the lower left quadrant. I will draw a line out to the clear area and I will write "B-10" there?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: And this description here, antemortem.

MR. KELBERG: Keep your voice up, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: "Abrasion, reddish brown, 3/8 by quarter inch, antemortem."

MR. KELBERG: And I will circle that area and drawn a line to connect the earlier writing of mine of B-10.

MR. KELBERG: Is there any additional information in the addendum regarding this injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. We did an addendum on this and the measurement has changed in the addendum.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: And this is 8B. Why don't we put it up over where we had the protocol.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Excuse me. Where is there a reference to this, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Page 1, roman number ii, item 2.

MR. KELBERG: And I will circle that on the blow-up and write "B-10" out at the margin. Now, what is the difference, doctor, between what is described here in the addendum and what was initially--let me hold up--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The initial measurement was 3/8 by quarter inch. The measurement was about half an inch by quarter inch.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, do you have any information, from your review of all of the materials, on which this revision on the description of that abrasion was made?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: He made it in the addendum and I--I think what happened was he had included this injury in the body of the report under the systemic review and he thought he probably didn't address it and then when he saw the photographs he addressed it in the addendum thinking he didn't address it. But I don't have an answer why he called it half-inch by quarter inch. I think he measured it from the photograph he had when he measured it.

MR. SHAPIRO: Motion to strike as speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained. The jury is to disregard the last question and answer.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor--sorry, your Honor. Doctor, according to the diagram, that diagram entry that we circled in the lower left side with the B-10, that handwritten entry was made at the time of the autopsy by Dr. Golden?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for speculation, motion to strike.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. KELBERG: Your answer, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: One other thing--is there anything further on this abrasion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Is there any significance to you, with respect to the difference in description half an inch versus quarter inch, 3/8 inch by quarter inch, on this particular abrasion on any of the issues you reviewed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: And did you measure that particular abrasion from the one-to-one photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: What was your measurement?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: 7/16 inch by 3/16 inch.

MR. KELBERG: So you have what would be a third series of dimensions for that particular abrasion; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct.

MR. KELBERG: Is there any significance to you in the difference between your measurement from the one-to-one photograph and the two measurements that are provided in the original protocol and the addendum?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Not of significance. There is a difference.

MR. KELBERG: Is that difference a difference that can be attributed to something other than the limitations of the process of photographic measurement?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, because there is only 1/16 inch difference.

MR. KELBERG: And given that difference of 1/16 of an inch, is that difference consistent with the limitations that you have described of photographic measurement?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: My arm is getting tired. I will put that down. If we could take the addendum down.

MR. KELBERG: As long we are in this position, one thing I failed to I think bring out with the protocol, and getting back to the very first major stab/incise wound and what we started with this morning of the aspiration of blood, you mentioned something about it being addressed in some fashion in Dr. Golden's protocol; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Go to page 9.

MR. KELBERG: Keep your voice up, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Page 9.

MR. KELBERG: We are going to put this back up. I will switch with Mr. Lynch.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: And what is of significance here, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: If you look at page 9, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5--the paragraph just before the last paragraph of the page--you see: "Injuries to the upper airway including the incise wound of the hypopharynx and epiglottis have been described. Otherwise, the mucosa of the larynx piriform sinuses and trachea and major bronchi are anatomic. No mucosal lesions are evident and no blood is present."

MR. KELBERG: And is that the basis on which you form an opinion that there was no aspiration of blood by Nicole Brown Simpson from that major stab/incise wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, and also--

MR. KELBERG: Keep your voice up, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: And also the next page.

MR. KELBERG: All right. Before we move to the next page, your Honor, for the record, I'm outlining with the red marker that paragraph and I'm going to write "B-13, 16, B-16, and B-18" and the word "Aspiration of blood" on the left margin.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, the next page; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Page 10.

MR. KELBERG: Page 10. All right. Mr. Lynch is--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Under "Lungs" if you look, it says that the lungs: "Sectioned surface of the lungs show minimal congestion and no injuries or lesions."

MR. KELBERG: And that again is consistent with your opinion of an absence of aspiration?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, because you have aspiration, you will describe it--when you section the lung you will see the aspirated blood in the distal portion of the airways and you will see it on the dissectioning of the lung.

MR. KELBERG: And you also examined those sections of lung that were preserved?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The sections which were preserved I examined.

MR. KELBERG: You found no evidence of that aspiration of blood?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Grossly.

MR. KELBERG: When you say "Grossly" what does that mean?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: On the sections we examined.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have outlined that area on page 10. I will again write "B-13, B-16, B-18" and aspirate--"Asp of blood."

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, one other thing while we are on this page, we will flip back to page 9, there is an entry regarding the cornu, that horn, in Dr. Golden's original protocol that--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: --that is not accurate?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: All right. If we could flip back to page 9 because I think it is caught in mid-sentence in the flip. Doctor, inviting your attention to the last sentence that begins at the bottom of page 9 and continues then on to page 10, does this deal with Dr. Golden's observation regarding that area, including the cornu or horns?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. He says: "The hyoid bone and thyroid cartilages are intact, inasmuch as the incised wound passes through the thyrohyoid membrane and the ligament and both greater cornuas of the thyroid cartilage are intact."

MR. KELBERG: Were they, in your opinion, intact?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, the right cornu was cut and I already addressed it earlier.

MR. KELBERG: And that is a matter that you have addressed as you have identified in Dr. Golden's addendum; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: So your Honor, where Dr. Lakshmanan has just made mention from page 10, I have circled it and I will write "B-13, B-16, B-18" and I will write the word "Horns."

THE COURT: Yes. Thank you.

MR. KELBERG: So, doctor, the reference here in your opinion would be a mistake by Dr. Golden?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, because it was incised.

MR. KELBERG: The cornu was incised on the right side?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is that mistake of any significance to you on these issues that we have discussed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I already said it is not of significance because the hold is available and the major description have been described.

MR. KELBERG: Does it in any way, whether it was nicked or not nicked, impact on the manner or sequence of how she died?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: I think we are done with that.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: All right. Doctor, I think we are going to go back to the photographs if counsel and the doctor would like to change positions again.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I want to invite your attention now to a photograph that has underneath it the designation "Right side of the head" and the letter and number B-20. Do you see that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is depicted or shown in this particular photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The right side of the head is shown. The scalp hair has been shaved postmortem and you can see a discoloration of the skin which is a bruise. And in my measurement, using the one-as-to-one photograph, it was 7/8 of an inch in diameter.

MR. KELBERG: When you say "A bruise," that is our lay term. What is the more technical term for the bruise?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Contusion in the right temporal area of the head which is the right side of the head.

MR. KELBERG: Could you turn so that the jury can see the right side of your body and point to the area that is shown with this contusion.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Right here I'm pointing, right side, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, for the record, the witness is using his index finger to point to the--appears to be close to the right temple.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, doctor.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, first of all, is this evidence of blunt force trauma?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: From the appearance, the color that you see in this photograph--and incidentally, this was a photograph taken during the course of the autopsy procedures?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And in the manner you described yesterday of shaving when there appears to be an injury that may be hidden by the hair of the decedent?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is the color that appears in this contusion of significance to you in assessing, no. 1, when in relationship to death this injury was received by Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This occurred when she had blood pressure, she was alive, and there is evidence of hemorrhage. And the color, as I said, is reddish brown in color and this would signify that she had blood pressure when she sustained this injury.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, how long, if you can offer an opinion, must Nicole Brown Simpson have lived in order for that coloration to have shown and be seen at autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You can get this kind of hemorrhage into the soft tissues within minutes after the injury.

MR. KELBERG: And when you say "Within minutes," how many minutes?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You can see it as early as a minute, because when you crush the tissues, the tissues bleed and you can get the bleeding immediately.

MR. KELBERG: In your opinion could Nicole Brown Simpson have died as little as one minute after this injury was inflicted?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, that is always a possibility, but it could be also a few minutes later.

MR. KELBERG: Could Nicole Brown Simpson have received the sharp force injury that you identified as the last major sharp force injury inflicted, that fatal neck wound, received that within seconds of having received the blunt force trauma injury shown in this photo?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And then lived for the period of time necessary, as you indicated, to allow for the discoloration?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Not seconds, because you need to have enough blood pressure to cause this bruising. I missed your earlier question. The injury to the neck which caused the fatal wound must have occurred after a few minutes or a minute later, because you need some time for the bleeding to occur in the tissues. And for that reason I would say that she was alive at least for a few minutes, at least a minute, if not more, before the last wound was inflicted, because once the last wound is inflicted, you won't have any blood pressure available to cause this kind of bleeding in the scalp.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, do you have an opinion as to any source or sources that could cause that blunt force trauma contusion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It could be something like a fist, it could be an object with a round smooth surface, like the base of a knife could do that. You could also have the head being struck against a smooth-surfaced area, which is rounded.

MR. KELBERG: And doctor, what, if any, physiological or body reaction would you expect from Nicole Brown Simpson having sustained that injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The injury itself is not fatal, but as you know, the--this is a covering of the head, the skin of the covering of the head, and you have the brain inside, and as you all know that you can have what's called a concussion happening, which is transient loss of consciousness can occur. If somebody sustains a bruising to the head, it can occur.

MR. KELBERG: What is the effect if a concussion occurs?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You can remain unconscious for some time.

MR. KELBERG: What kind of time period?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The concussion syndrome can occur for a few seconds to minutes and you may not find any structural abnormality of the brain.

MR. KELBERG: You may not find any structural abnormality of the brain at autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: So in other words, a concussion can be sustained from this blunt force trauma and you, as a forensic pathologist at autopsy, can't see something which confirms that that occurred?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct. And this is commonly seen in boxers, boxing, when people get hit with a fist, they transiently get dazed or even lowering--

MR. KELBERG: Transiently meaning?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Seconds. And then sometimes it can be even for minutes and that is what you see in the countdown and then they get up. And people have done studies and they have found that you don't find anything on the CT scans or MRI scans.

MR. KELBERG: Before you run ahead, CT scans are cat scans?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is that a fancy term for?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically a computerized tomography of the head, computerized axiom tomography of the head.

MR. KELBERG: Can we get it down to a lower level for me? Is it a fancy x-ray?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is a fancy x-ray giving three-dimensional views.

MR. KELBERG: All right. And another one you were talking about was an MRI?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yeah.

MR. KELBERG: What is an MRI?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Magnetic resonance imaging.

MR. KELBERG: What is a fancy device for?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is another way of looking at the brain structures when somebody is alive.

MR. KELBERG: All right. And what do you want to say about those with respect to--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: What I'm trying to say is that you can have the syndrome of concussion without leaving any finding at all and you can have the syndrome of concussion when somebody is alive the without leaving any brain damage.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, assume hypothetically that Nicole Brown Simpson was struck on the head, either with a hand, fist or the rounded end of a knife in the manner you described, and became dazed, as you have indicated, and slumped to the ground and the perpetrator then moved from where her body was over to where Mr. Goldman's body is found, to that area, and then came back to Nicole Brown Simpson and raised her head in the manner you described yesterday and inflicted that major incise stab wound as you demonstrated yesterday. Would that circumstance be consistent with the time frame required to create the bruising coloration in the scalp as seen in B-20?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for speculation, improper hypothetical, not based on any facts in this case.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. KELBERG: You may answer the question, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: But I also want to ask in your hypothetical discussion regarding the stab wound of the neck and the other wound she had on the head.

MR. KELBERG: All right. What do you want to ask?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I want to know they were also there when this bruising occurred?

MR. KELBERG: Let's assume they weren't there.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Then to answer your hypothetical question that is a possibility.

MR. KELBERG: And let's assume they were there.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Then also it is a possibility but that means the stab wounds to the neck and the other sharp force injuries to the head must have occurred around the time of the bruising but before the final wound in the neck.

MR. KELBERG: And on what basis do you draw that distinction?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because my opinion is that the major wound to the neck is the final wound, and the stab wounds to the left side of the neck have hemorrhage in the deep tissues which indicated that she had blood pressure when those wounds were inflicted and they would also cause bleeding. We also have evidence of injuries to the--other sharp force injuries to the left side and back side of the head, in addition to this bruising on the right side of the head, which all have evidence of bleeding in the tissues, which indicates that she had blood pressure when those injuries were inflicted, so--and I already opined that the last wound was the fatal incise wound to the neck. So that is why I am saying that I wanted to know in your hypothetical whether these wounds were there when the bruising to the right side of the head took place.

MR. KELBERG: And if they were, they would result in a lowered blood pressure; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They would cause lowering of the blood pressure, but what I am see saying is that they could have occurred concurrently while the infliction of the stab wounds took place. During the altercation the person could have also been pushed or hit on the right side of the head simultaneously while the stab wounds are taking place.

MR. KELBERG: And still produced the discoloration that you have seen in this photograph B-20?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And still subsequently then produce the major stab/incise wound as the last sharp force injury received?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. What I'm trying to say is you have sharp force injuries to the left neck, you have sharp force injuries to the side and back of the head, a blunt force injury to the right side of the head. I can't say how they occurred had sequence, but they occurred before the fatal stab wound. And since I already opined that the fatal stab wound occurred when the person was incapacitated and probably unconscious face down, combined, these injuries somehow resulted in her being unconscious.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry, resulted in her being?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Unconscious.

MR. KELBERG: Unconscious?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: With blood pressure.

MR. KELBERG: With blood pressure?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in your opinion, given that set of circumstances, could all of those other injuries have been inflicted in a very short period of time?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: How short a period of time, in your opinion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Within minutes. The altercation can take place so fast because you are talking about three sharp force traumas to the neck and three sharp force traumas to left side of the neck and these sharp force traumas could have occurred within minutes.

MR. KELBERG: When you say "Minutes" do you mean multiple minutes or on you using that term--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: A few minutes, few minutes or even less than that, less than that.

MR. KELBERG: How much less?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Within a minute also because this kind of altercation can take place pretty rapidly.

MR. KELBERG: Does the period for the altercation to some degree depend upon the relative physical size and strength between the perpetrator and the victim?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Does it also depend on whether or not the victim is taken by surprise or is aware of impending danger?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Does it also depend upon how motivated the perpetrator may be in inflicting injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Does it also depend on whether the perpetrator has the element of surprise on his or her side?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And from the standpoint of the forensic pathologist, is there any way medically on that basis alone that you can draw conclusions to a reasonable medical certainty as to how these occurred?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: May I have just a moment, your Honor?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, did Dr. Golden address the contusion that is seen in this photograph B-20 in his original protocol?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, he did.

MR. KELBERG: Did he also diagram it?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, he did.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, let me move--we will come back to this photograph and we will come back to the diagrams and the chart--protocols in a moment, but I would like to move to the photograph that is immediately to the right on this exhibit 352 of photograph B-20. That has a marking of B-33, brain tissue sample. Do you see that, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Are you familiar with that particular sample that is shown in that photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I am.

MR. KELBERG: What is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is a sample of the brain of Miss Simpson which was saved by our--by Dr. Golden during his autopsy which Dr.--which I saw when I reviewed the tissue samples with the Defense pathologist, Dr. Baden, and Dr. Wolf was also present at that time.

MR. KELBERG: And that was on June 22nd of 1994?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, you indicated that Dr. Golden saved this section of brain tissue; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And it was saved in one of those jars that you showed us yesterday from the photographs?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, the formalin containing jar.

MR. KELBERG: Was there more than this--one sample of brain tissue saved by Dr. Golden from the autopsy of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There are several samples saved.

MR. KELBERG: Approximately how many samples were saved, and if up need to refresh your memory with something, please do so.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have.

THE COURT: While he is refreshing his memory, Miss Clark.

(Brief pause.)

DR. LAKSHMANAN: In addition to this specimen which had the contusion, there were 13 sections of brain and brain stem of varying sizes.

MR. KELBERG: That were preserved from the autopsy of Nicole Brown Simpson by Dr. Golden?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: So if we include this section, we would have 14?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And doctor, did you examine each of the 14 sections grossly, that is, without the aid of a magnifying device or a microscope?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: On June 22nd?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: At the same time that doctors Baden and Wolf could do so if they so desired?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: When you did this, did you observe anything of significance to you in looking at the brain tissue that is shown in the photograph that is B-33?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There was evidence of hemorrhage on the surface of the brain which we refer to in medical terms as subarachnoid hemorrhage, S-U-B-A-R-A-C-H-N-O-I-D, hemorrhage, and underlining the hemorrhage on the surface because it is a section of the brain there was evidence of discoloratio