Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. Mr. Simpson is again present before the Court with his counsel, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Cochran, Mr. Kardashian, Mr. Blasier. The People are represented by Mr. Darden and Mr. Kelberg and Mr. Lynch. The jury is not present. Counsel, anything we need to take up before we invite the jurors to join us?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes, your Honor. One matter, if the Court pleases. Good morning, your Honor.

THE COURT: Good morning, Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor will recall, and we had previously filed a motion regarding the jury and whether or not certain jurors were targeted. I think that given the recent circumstances we would like to have that motion set for hearing, and I wanted to ask the Court to set it as soon as possible, at least let's talk about some dates, given our upcoming statement.

THE COURT: How about the afternoon of June 16th?

MR. COCHRAN: Umm, your Honor, that might--may I confer just a second, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I was going to suggest we would like to have the motion heard absolutely as soon as possible. If we are to be dark on Monday, if the Coroner is still on the stand, we would be willing to do it as early as the 12th, and I think Mr. Dershowitz will be coming out also for that motion, so we would like the earliest possible date next week. And we understand with our increased schedule it will be tough. We don't want to set it of course at five o'clock.

THE COURT: That is why I'm suggesting the afternoon of June 16th.

MR. COCHRAN: We want to do it as soon as possible. If something brakes loose earlier and we get an afternoon, will the Court consider that?

THE COURT: I will consider that certainly.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So we need Mr. Dershowitz time to get here.

THE COURT: If we schedule it for the 16th, but you have to understand I have a 1026 hearing also set for that afternoon.

MR. COCHRAN: Yes, I understand. You have other cases, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes, I do.

MR. COCHRAN: I used to also, your Honor. The 16th, and perhaps we can move it up.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden, any comment on that?

MR. DARDEN: (Shakes head from side to side.)

THE COURT: Miss Sager, good morning.

MS. SAGER: Good morning.

THE COURT: I apologize for taking up the Court's time with what may or may not be an issue, but was unable to find out precisely what the Court was intending to do with respect to the introduction and viewing of the autopsy photos. I understand that that procedure may occur today and we were hearing from individuals through the Prosecution's office that the photos will not be shown to the spectators in the courtroom and may or may not be made available for anyone to see. And obviously that was of great concern to my clients who understandably feel that they have a right to see information that is being introduced into evidence and that it is critical to them in being able to accurately report on what the witnesses are testifying about.

THE COURT: But don't you already have access to the complete Coroner's protocol, the addenda, all the charts and all the descriptions? I mean, don't you already have that?

MS. SAGER: We asked for and received, as your Honor knows, a copy of the Coroner's records, but not the photographs, were not asked for at the time the public records act request was made, because we were not seeking to simply view photographs for any kind of prurient interest, but there is an interest in seeing photographs that the Court has determined should be introduced or may be introduced as evidence before the jury, because they do have some particular relevance in proving a portion of the Prosecution's case. So while my clients were more than willing to limit their requests for the Coroner's records to not include photographs because they want simply to look at them for the sake of looking at them, they are interested in viewing photographs that the Prosecution has decided and the Court has acquiesced in that their arguments are necessary for them to prove their case to the jury, and those are the photographs only the ones that are being introduced into evidence, that are being shown to witnesses for testimony that the media feel that they have a right, and indeed it is necessary for them to see in order to accurately report on what the witnesses are testifying about and the jury is seeing.

THE COURT: Miss Sager, the difficulty that I have with this, is that I have to also take into consideration the feelings of the victim's families, and what little dignity is left that we accord to the victims themselves, and to display them publicly in such a manner is highly distasteful to me personally.

MS. SAGER: And I can understand that, your Honor, and we are not asking for the opportunity to copy or reproduce or broadcast or otherwise show the photographs publicly. None of the clients I represent are asking for that. They are simply asking for an opportunity to view what the jury will see and must see, as I understand it, based on the Court's order in order for them to understand what the Prosecution's evidence is in this case and to make a fair and just determination. And while I certainly understand the reluctance of the victim's families to see the photos and would not--I mean they certainly can choose not to see the photos--and I understand the Court's reluctance in having the photos disseminated beyond the courtroom and would not ask the Court to do that, I do think that it is not only required as a matter of constitutional law, but is critical to the public's understanding of the case and of this Court's decision, that those photographs will be shown to the jury for the media to also see, or members of the public who are chosen to spectate in the courtroom, be also able to see the photographs, because that is critical to this Court's determination. Obviously the Court would not have made a ruling on their admissibility without having looked at the photographs, nor could anyone evaluating the Court's decision come to any conclusion about whether the jury should see the photographs, what impact that might have on the jury, whether the jury reaches a fair and just determination at the conclusion of these proceedings without seeing what the jury sees.

THE COURT: The only people who need to see it for that purpose are the Court of Appeal--would be the Court of Appeal.

MS. SAGER: Well, I disagree, your Honor. If that were the case, all proceedings would be closed and the Court of Appeal could simply determine whether or not a trial had reached a just result, but that is not what the Supreme Court has said. It said that the public has a right of access, and one of the reasons for that is so the public can feel that a fair result has been reached so that they can understand what the proceedings are all about and they can evaluate for themselves what the evidence is that the jury is seeing.

THE COURT: But to follow that line of argument, then I should also display all the photographs that the Prosecution has chosen not to offer and the photographs that I have dictated should not be presented to the jury.

MS. SAGER: No, your Honor. I think there is an easy distinction to make there because those photographs are something the jury will never see. The jury will never make a determination as to guilt or innocence based on material that is not before them. And while things that the Court has excluded may wind up being issues in the Court of Appeal or become part of the record in that, the fact that we are not asking to see photographs that the Court has excluded I don't think changes the public's right to see evidence that is actually introduced. And I would remind the Court that when this issue arose last summer in the preliminary hearing and we asked to see certain crime scene photos, and I don't think the autopsy photos were even introduced, but crime scenes photos were, the Court and the Prosecution both took the same position, that there is a distinction when things are introduced as evidence at trial, it becomes a totally different issue and at that point there is a public right of access that overcomes any interest in privacy or concerns that the Court had at that time about allowing the press to even view the photographs. And the Court explicitly said in its order at that time that the photographs--that the Court then said that the press was not able to view--

THE COURT: Excuse me a second. Miss Sager.

MS. SAGER: --that the photographs that the press at that time was not permitted to view would become public and public for them to see and the public to see at the time they were introduced into evidence before the--

THE COURT: How would you reply to this?

MS. SAGER: Well, your Honor, obviously the people that I represent would prefer that they be given contemporaneous access to that so they could see the photographs while the witnesses were testifying. I understand that there may be concerns that the victim's families who want to be present may not want them shown in a way that they would have to see them. They obviously could choose to avert their eyes or to not be present in the courtroom when the photos are being shown. And I understand that that issue has come up with respect to Mr. Simpson as well. The Court could make other arrangements for the viewing of the photos, but if they are not to be shown contemporaneously, which I think is important so that people reporting on the case have the information that the witness and the jury has, then I would ask that it be done at the earliest possible time after a particular photograph is introduced into evidence, and not simply wait until the end of the proceedings or the end of a witness' testimony.

THE COURT: Well, the problem is, though, procedure normally followed in criminal prosecutions is at the conclusion of the Prosecution's case they will offer into evidence the exhibits that they have marked for identification purposes. I think we perhaps have only, out of the 200 or so Prosecution exhibits that have been marked so far, I think only maybe five have been offered into evidence at this point, so by your definition then these will not be in evidence.

MS. SAGER: But they will be shown, as I understand it, to the jury.

THE COURT: That's correct.

MS. SAGER: And they will be shown to the witness, and anything that the jury is being shown I think the public has an equal right to see, because that is inarguably going to be part of what the jury considers when they make up their mind at the end of this case. And once the jury is shown the photo, as opposed to the Court reviewing them in camera or the parties seeing them in discovery, once the jury and the witnesses are seeing those photos, then I think the public and the press have a right to see them as well so that they can understand what the testimony is that is being given and what the jury is being told contemporaneously with those proceedings occurring.

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran, any comment on behalf of Mr. Simpson?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Thank you, Miss Sager.

MS. SAGER: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, the Defense is vehemently opposed to public or anyone else seeing those photographs. I spoke with Miss Clark. As we heard Miss Sager's motion, Miss Sager always argues eloquently, but in this instance I think you put your finger on it from the standpoint of the public's right to know in this matter. We argued this earlier, fashioned a compromise where the autopsy protocols were released. They have those already and there are diagrams and that seems to me to be entirely appropriate. For these photographs to be displayed publicly I think is offensive to the victims, offensive to the Defendant and offensive to families on both sides. It serves no purpose and I think it is entirely inappropriate. We feel very, very strongly about that and urge the Court--as I understand the Court has fashioned the Court's reasoning in allowing the photographs was because of the theory of the Prosecution to show certain aspects of this case. They can hear that, but to have these photographs shown to the public, to have these photographs become part of the public domain so they are going to be in these tabloid shows is outrageous. There has been enough of a circus atmosphere created in this case and I think this is one time both sides agree that we have to draw the line for the victims, for Mr. Simpson's family, for Mr. Simpson's children, for everyone. Enough is enough. The camera is here all the time with us and that is enough, your Honor, and I think based upon decency and the fact that it would just be outrageous to do that--and I think as it is we are worried about these pictures being--some tabloid magazine stealing the pictures or whatever and having them displayed now. The Court yourself has said these photographs are so disturbing, so disturbing the jurors may not even want to see them, but for the limited purpose you are allowing this, certainly it should not be part of the public domain, I think we all agree with that. And I would ask that only the photographs be set up in such a way that only the jurors are able to see them and put up that, taken down as soon as possible and we move on from this part of the case.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Mr. Cochran. Mr. Kelberg.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. Unfortunately, there is a difference sometimes between one's personal feelings of what should be done and one's sense of what the constitution may provide, which may not be the wisest thing, necessarily, but may be the law. And in talking with Ms. Clark, and she was my emissary in talking with Mr. Cochran, I share everyone's concern about the privacy rights of these families, the families that are here in court, the families that may not be here in court, but have an interest in these proceedings, and I speak on behalf of the Goldmans and the Browns and I join in Mr. Cochran's concerns for Mr. Simpson's family as well. These photographs have significant probative value from our perspective and must be shown to the jury. Does the constitution require that the public's right of access be absolutely equal to every aspect of information that is given the jury or is the public's right to know satisfied by the fact that we allow the press to sit in on these proceedings and hear everything that is going on, record whatever testimony they seek to record in their pads and get transcripts, and quote accurately, we hope, in their press releases, and then let the public find from that information what they seek to find. But if the public is merely a voyeur looking for the titillating aspect of autopsy photos, the public has no right to know and no right of access in my judgment. And on that basis, your Honor, I believe that if there is to be any so-called public access, unquote, that the access should be satisfied by the Court making available for inspection in a closed courtroom to representatives of the press, since obviously the public that apparently is clamoring for this case can't all fit in this courtroom, so obviously representatives of the press have to act as the eyes and ears to some degree of the public, even though the public can watch by the cameras that are here in the courtroom, and let representatives of the media view these boards at the completion, perhaps of the day, if any board is used, and obviously with no right to photograph, no right to photocopy, that the board remain sealed absent further order of the Court from viewing by anyone other than the lawyers in the case or the jurors. If the Court feels that there is any right of access, I believe that that will satisfy that right of access. Personally I am completely opposed to anyone other than these members of the jury seeing these photographs.

These photographs are powerful and we believe they are powerful evidence to prove guilt. But they are powerful in a sense that is much more important, I think, morally, when this Court has to decide whether these victims must be once again brought into the public eye in the worst possible way imaginable, by having their bodies viewed from photographs taken at the Los Angeles County Coroner's Office. So as much as personally I may be opposed to this, constitutionally there may be well be some right of access, but if there is, I believe this Court can limit it in the tightest fashion possible to having representatives, not every news media that wants to see it, representative news media have an opportunity to view the boards under what I would call controlled circumstances where we are certain that they have a chance to view them, adequate time to view them, but that nothing further can be done to these boards as far as photographing, copying, et cetera, and that they otherwise remain sealed. On that basis I will submit the matter, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, counsel.

MR. COCHRAN: If I might just be heard?

THE COURT: Briefly.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you. The thing I would indicate--as you can see the People's position is very close to the position of the Defense, and the one thing--Mr. Kelberg was not here at the time that you fashioned this procedure by which the protocol was released with the diagrams and pretty much the entire thing, so the press has that already, and it seem to me that is sufficient, your Honor. So I would not even allow, even in a closed setting, the release. That is how these leaks and things occur and I think the Court knows that. So I think that again, I think the Court is on sound ground here. You have been reasonable in this regard. We have argued against any release of these photographs, and I think that--I think what you are going to find--I'm not here to argue against what Mr. Kelberg has said--but I just think that it would be inappropriate, even in a closed setting, to do that. I think that it has to do with the victims and the families of the victims and everyone who is in this. This is a very sensitive part of the case and I would ask the Court to take that into consideration.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, counsel.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, one other point very briefly?

THE COURT: Briefly.

MR. KELBERG: The Court is aware there will be two exhibits probably marked today, and certainly one of them, and another one will be marked tomorrow if we don't get to them today, which I will describe as wound charts that describe Dr. Lakshmanan's observations with respect to each of the photographs which are going to be viewed by the jury. Now, I believe that Dr. Lakshmanan's expertise permits him to accurately see what is in these photographs far better than any representative from the news media ever could by observing the actual photographs, and I believe that in fact we can satisfy Mr. Cochran's concerns, the Prosecution's concerns, the concerns of the family, by making available to the press today, should be very easily done because we have extra copies of these documents, these exhibits. And the best that the press is going to be able to do anyway is look at these photographs and try and write down descriptions. These documents will provide detailed descriptions of each injury that is seen in each photograph and will even help the press out by in the form of showing where there is a reference in the protocol, a reference in the diagram, a reference in the addendum to the particular injury. What more could they do? They just have to write the story. We give them all the information. There is nothing that the photographs will provide them that is not in either of these two charts and that I believe is better than they could ever hope to have. I'll submit the matter.

THE COURT: Thank, counsel.

MS. SAGER: Your Honor, can I just briefly respond?

THE COURT: Briefly.

MS. SAGER: Briefly. I just want to reiterate--

THE COURT: You don't need to reiterate anything. I've heard the argument.

MS. SAGER: I am we are not asking for display or copying outside of the courtroom, but I am not aware of any authority, and neither apparently has counsel cited any either, that permits effectively the sealing of exhibits because other information in the courtroom is good enough, they think, for the media, because documents are graphic or disturbing or horrible, as the Court has described them or because there are privacy interests of the families or concerns of the families. I am not aware of any authority that supports not permitting the public and press access to materials that are going on in a public trial in a public forum for any of those reasons. And instead the Supreme Court in every instance has said there is a constitutional right of access which extends to documents that are used and shown to the jury. And while I agree with all of the personal concerns of the parties and the Court, none of those I think have any constitutional grounds for denying the public and press access to materials that are shown to the jury. And I would urge the Court to fashion the narrowest possible order if there is any restrictions placed on the access, and I have suggested the narrowest possible order, that we are not asking for copies or reproductions or broadcasts, but simply an opportunity to see what the jury is seeing.

THE COURT: All right. I will think about it.

MS. SAGER: Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Deputy Magnera, let's have the jurors, please.

MS. CLARK: Your Honor, did you want to address the issue of Mr. Simpson's presence during the testimony?

THE COURT: I had a conference with Mr. Kelberg and Mr. Cochran earlier today.

MS. CLARK: I will confer with Mr. Kelberg. Thank you.

THE COURT: I think we reached agreement as to how that might be addressed, should the occasion arise.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Mrs. Robertson, are you ready?

THE CLERK: (Nods head up and down.)

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: And counsel, while we are waiting, the bailiffs advise me that tomorrow one of our jurors has a medical appointment.

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Be seated, ladies and gentlemen. All right. Let the record reflect that we have been rejoined by all the remaining members of our jury panel. Mrs. Robertson, would you please draw the numbers of two alternates. The first for seat no. 2.

THE CLERK: Seat no. 2, juror 1492.

THE COURT: And for seat no. 10.

THE CLERK: Seat no. 10, juror 2179.

THE COURT: All right. Dr. Lakshmanan, would you resume the witness stand, please.

Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran, having been previously been sworn, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

THE COURT: All right. Good morning, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Good morning, your Honor.

THE COURT: Doctor, you are reminded, sir, you are still under oath. Mr. Kelberg, you may continue with your direct. And let me ask, Mr. Bancroft, you are directed not to attempt to train the television camera on any photographic depiction of any of the victims or any of their body parts. Same direction to the still photographers.

MR. BANCROFT: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Kelberg, let's proceed.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. And good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. KELBERG

MR. KELBERG: Dr. Lakshmanan, when we were last in court on Friday, I had shown you a photograph that depicted a scale and the measuring device used to measure the heights and the scale to measure the weights of the decedents as they arrive at the Coroner's office. And we printed out that photograph, but I don't believe, your Honor, for the record, that I formally marked it. It is exhibit 299 for identification.

THE COURT: All right. So marked.

(Peo's 299 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: And your Honor, the Court may recall that at the completion of Friday's testimony, with the form 1's which have been marked 298-A and B, there was some identifying information on family addresses for the victims which by agreement with counsel could be whited out and the whited out documents substituted in their stead. And that is what Mr. Fairtlough has very competently done and I would ask that they be marked as they previously were, but in the whited out condition, 298-A and B.

THE COURT: All right. So ordered.

MR. KELBERG: With that, I will turn these back to your clerk.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, we were taking, in essence, a tour of the Coroner's office with respect to the procedures used once the bodies in this case of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman arrive. And we are waiting for our laser disk to arrive so we have to go to a somewhat more old-fashioned way of continuing the tour. You had stopped at the area where the bodies were weighed and measured. And now, your Honor, we have another photograph which I'm asking Mr. Fairtlough to place on the elmo, which when it is printed out, your Honor, I would ask to be marked as exhibit 300.

THE COURT: All right. People's 300.

(Peo's 300 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what is depicted in this particular photograph, exhibit 300?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the reception area in the same room where the weighing scale and measuring device were present. It is on the other side of the room.

MR. KELBERG: What is to be done at this location once the bodies have been weighed and measured?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We usually--this is the area where the crypt space and body control cards are kept. That is, we have information on where the bodies are located in the department in the crypt space.

MR. KELBERG: Crypt spaces are specific locations for specific bodies?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, that's correct.

MR. KELBERG: And these two gentleman that appear in this photograph 300, are these people who are responsible for giving the assigned spaces?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They are--they are the employees responsible at that time.

MR. KELBERG: Incidentally, doctor, when the investigator goes to the scene to take custody of the bodies, is the investigator given an individualized number that will be applied for each case?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. We start with the no. 1 for each year, and depending on the case number for that particular day, that is the case number assigned to a particular decedent, and the investigator puts a band on the body.

MR. KELBERG: The band is placed on the body at the scene where the body is taken?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And in this particular case was an individualized number given for the body of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What number was that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: 94-5136.

MR. KELBERG: 5136?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And the "94" refers to the year of 1994?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And was an individualized number given for the body of Mr. Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What number was that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: 94-5135.

MR. KELBERG: Again a tag placed around his ankle area?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is there anything further that you need to describe from this particular photograph 300?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: And if I can exchange with Mr. Fairtlough another photograph that I ask the Court to mark when it is printed out as exhibit 301.

THE COURT: All right. People's 301.

(Peo's 301 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what are we looking at in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is a rack where you have the location of all the cards with reference to all the decedents in the office on a particular day.

MR. KELBERG: When you say "Rack with all the cards," what are these cards to reflect?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They are the body control cards and the tags which refer to crypt space a particular decedent is located in.

MR. KELBERG: Which crypt space, if you know, was assigned for the body of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I think it was no. 4. I will just--

MR. KELBERG: You have a series of materials in front of you that appear to be in two big binders. What are those materials, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: These are the case records of both the decedents as filed in the Coroner's Department.

MR. KELBERG: Is there a document you can refer to that will refresh your recollection as to the specific crypt assignment?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, and form 1 should show it.

MR. KELBERG: That would be our 298-A and B form that we were looking at?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Basically they had no. 3 and 4 assigned to them.

MR. KELBERG: Crypts 3 and 4?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And in fact is there some kind of impression, inked impression that is placed on the record that reflects the crypt assignment for each of the bodies?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is there anything further in this photograph 301 that is of significance in the process of the handling of these bodies?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: I have another photograph which I'm handing to Mr. Fairtlough and ask, your Honor, that it be marked as exhibit 302.

THE COURT: All right. People's 302.

(Peo's 302 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor--incidentally, doctor, when you are going to speak, if you will be sure you turn this way toward the microphone. I know it will help. I know it is tough to look and speak at the same time. If you are sure to speak outward, it will be helpful to everybody. What are we looking in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the area where every decedent is photographed as soon as they come to the Coroner's office so we have a picture of their appearance when initially brought to the Coroner's office.

MR. KELBERG: What is the purpose of taking a photograph of the body as the body initially arrives at the Coroner's office?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: So we have some information on the condition of the body. No. 2, also it is a kind of an identification type of photograph.

MR. KELBERG: In this photograph, doctor, is the camera that was--first of all, was there a camera on June 13th, 1994?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, there was.

MR. KELBERG: In this photograph is there a camera?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No camera present.

MR. KELBERG: Why is there no camera in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because the camera had some problems because the photographs were getting jammed and we ordered a new camera now.

MR. KELBERG: So you are still waiting for that camera to come?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, were photographs taken of the bodies of Nicole Brown Simpson and Mr. Goldman when they arrived on June 13th, 1994?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Was there anything unusual about the pictures that were taken by the camera in place at that time?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There was a malfunction of the camera and we had superimposition of the photographs of both the decedents, so they were not very useful.

MR. KELBERG: When you say "Superimposed," in other words, one exposure on top of another?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Partially and there was jamming in the camera film movement.

MR. KELBERG: You do have those pictures, whatever their condition may be? I'm not asking you to show them, but I just want to be sure do you have those pictures that were taken by that camera?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have copies of them.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is there anything else that takes place with respect to photography in this area that is shown in this particular photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: I think we are on to the next photograph, which I believe, your Honor, is 303.

THE COURT: 303.

(Peo's 303 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: What are we looking at in this photograph, 303, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the area called the decedent processing room where fingerprints are performed, evidence is collected, and this is a portion of the room.

MR. KELBERG: What kind of evidence is collected in this particular area, besides having fingerprints taken?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Usually hair evidence is collected, fingernail clippings can be done, fingernail scrapings, et cetera.

MR. KELBERG: The hair that you are talking about comes from various areas of each decedent's body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Whose responsibility is it to take those samples?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It could be the forensic attendant or the investigator or the criminalist who is doing the examination and collection of evidence.

MR. KELBERG: In the case of Ms. Brown Simpson, was a collection of reference hair sample taken?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: In the case of Mr. Goldman, was a reference sample of hair taken?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: With respect to fingernail scrapings and clippings, were representative samples taken from Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Who had done all of these things, starting with the hair through the clippings and scrapings of Ms. Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Miss Claudine Ratcliffe.

MR. KELBERG: She was the investigator?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Was a collection of scrapings and clippings from Mr. Goldman taken?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Why not?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: An explanation was that the nails were too short to do clippings and they did not do any nail scrapings.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have another photograph to exchange with the one Mr. Fairtlough has up. And ask that it be marked as exhibit--I'm saved. I don't have to fumble any more. We have our--for the record, we have our laser disk back.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: And it is no. 14, and again, your Honor, when this is printed out it will be exhibit 304, I believe.

THE COURT: Yes.

(Peo's 304 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: And I don't know if Mr. Fairtlough--can you zoom in with the laser disk or not?

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: No. I can zoom with the photo.

MR. KELBERG: I spoke too quickly, your Honor. I'm not technically oriented. I'm going to go back to the photograph to zoom in.

THE COURT: Back to the elmo?

MR. KELBERG: Back to the elmo.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. KELBERG: If Mr. Fairtlough could go to my left and down a bit--I'm sorry, the other direction. Sorry. You were back fine on the left. I want to focus in, if you would, please, on those two trays on the left side to begin with to see if we can read what is written there.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what are these two bins a part of?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: These are the bins which store the envelopes for obtaining fingernail kits.

MR. KELBERG: Have you in fact brought with you a sample of one of these fingernail kits?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have brought an opened sample and I will have an opened sample in the box there, but I can show the open sample, which is easier to--

MR. KELBERG: If you have a sample that we can use as an exhibit. Is it in your box?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Can I--

MR. KELBERG: Which box do you need?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I think the first one that you have there.

MR. KELBERG: The first one? All right. May I approach, your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

(Brief pause.)

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I was right.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, for the record, Dr. Lakshmanan has handed me actually two sample kits, but I'm going to start with one which appears to be labeled "Fingernail kit" at the top, "Department of Coroner County of Los Angeles." May this kit and it contents--and on the back, by the way, for the record, it has a seal saying, "Warning: Sealed evidence, do not tamper." May this be marked as exhibit 304-A?

THE COURT: 304-A.

(Peo's 304-A for id = fingernail kit)

MR. KELBERG: May I approach again, your Honor?

THE COURT: You may. Either counsel may approach the witness without asking leave of the Court.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, would you, holding it up, tell us what it is, take us through the process of how that kind of kit is used.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Umm, the envelope itself has information which needs to be completed with reference to the case number, the name of the decedent and also you have information on what type of evidence has been collected from a particular person, so it has got a seal here. And when the evidence has been collected naturally the red seal is placed to secure the evidence which has been collected, and when you--shall I open the envelope?

MR. KELBERG: If you would, please, and for the record--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: And this is the envelope marked for fingernail kit and this envelope usually contains the fingernail scrapings also. And I will explain what it is.

MR. KELBERG: For the record, your Honor, Dr. Lakshmanan has broken the white seal on the back of the envelope and he appears to have removed--I can't see how many number of envelopes.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There are about four envelopes here. One is for the right hand nail scrapings.

MR. KELBERG: And it is so labeled, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. And of course every envelope has the Coroner's case number.

MR. KELBERG: Is that the individualized number you identified previously with respect to each of the decedents?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Then we have for the right hand, fingernail scrapings, same number and process. Then we have for the left hand, fingernail clippings and left hand fingernail scrapings. And there is a difference in the content of the envelopes. The scraping envelope also have what's called a birch stick.

MR. KELBERG: What?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Birch stick, b-I-r-c-h, birch stick, which is used to scrape the nail bed after the clippings have been obtained.

MR. KELBERG: So this is a prepared kit that is available for someone like Miss Ratcliffe to take one out of the bin and with each decedent use that kit to collect scrapings and clippings?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct.

MR. KELBERG: And then what is someone like Miss Ratcliffe supposed to do with--let's start with scrapings are taken first?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. Usually they take the clippings first, usually use a scissor, because if you use a nail clipper sometimes the nail will fly, so you use a scissor and you cut the nail and after that you do the scrapings of the nail base.

MR. KELBERG: And then what does someone like Ms. Ratcliffe do as far as collecting that material?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: As I have to show you would be--open one of the envelopes. I show you the birch stick and there is a bindle of paper which is available inside each envelope.

MR. KELBERG: You hold that up higher for everybody to see, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: (Witness complies.) and the bindle is usually opened and the evidence is collected in such a manner that it falls on the bindle paper and then it is closed back and placed back in the envelope so this way the evidence is secured.

MR. KELBERG: Is Ms. Ratcliffe, or whoever is to do this, supposed to wear gloves of some sort when performing the procedure?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And then once there has been the collection made, what happens with these individual envelopes?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They are sealed and then dropped off in the evidence drop box which is available in the same room.

MR. KELBERG: I think we have a picture of that come up momentarily. If I could have that exhibit back, 304-A. And now, your Honor, ask that this second kit that Dr. Lakshmanan handed me that has the word "Decedent's hair kit" and a similar-appearing seal, may this be marked collectively at 304-B, as in boy?

THE COURT: So marked.

(Peo's 304-B for id = hair kit)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, would you basically take us through the same process you just did with the fingernail kit as to what this new exhibit is.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This again has a premarked--

MR. KELBERG: If you would hold it up.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: --premarked envelope for the particular evidence being collected. This is a decedent hair kit and inside this envelope--I'm breaking the seal for this envelope, and each of the envelopes has the Coroner's case number, the decedent's name and when we open the envelope, there are four other envelopes inside the main envelope. One is for facial hair and the facial hair envelope has separate bindles. Each of them marked for eyelash, eyebrow, beard and mustache, if it is a male. Then there is an envelope for head hair.

MR. KELBERG: Hold them up again, please, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Head hair. (Witness complies.) this is an envelope for chest hair, depending on what is collected, and arm hair, (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: How is the hair collected from each of the areas from which hair will be collected?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically the hair is plucked with the root so that you have the root also available. Usually you collect anywhere up to a hundred hair--hundred hair samples from the head area and you collect hair from the front, back and sides and top.

MR. KELBERG: And how--how does one get the root out?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You pluck them with--either you can use a tweezer or you can also just pluck it. You can easily get it out.

MR. KELBERG: Is the investigator expected to wear gloves for this procedure?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, what happens with the hairs once they have been collected?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This same process. The evidence is placed in the main envelope, sealed and dropped off in the drop box.

MR. KELBERG: If I could ask Mr. Fairtlough to take the photograph down for just a moment. Incidentally, your Honor, for the record, let me write on the back of the exhibit 304-A, that designation, and on the back of the hair kit, 304-B.

THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. KELBERG: And if I could have Mr. Fairtlough please put on the elmo the exhibit 304-A, and perhaps--I need to go to the eye doctor, but it looks a little out of focus to me.

THE COURT: It is slightly.

MR. KELBERG: Either that or I really need to go to the eye doctor.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is there information here that is supposed to be completed by the person collecting the scrapings and clippings?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And what, in essence, is to be done by someone like Ms. Ratcliffe with respect to this form?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: All the evidence, which is collected needs to be completed on the envelope, in addition to filling out the case number and the decedent's name.

MR. KELBERG: And I think just under the bold "Fingernail kit" there is a line where the decedent's name is to go?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And to the right of that--my eyesight is getting better--to the right of that is the Coroner's case number where it is to be placed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. And also you have information which needs to be completed with reference to what was collected, yes and no, and also you need to fill out whether the evidence was collected at the scene or at the Forensic Science Center, which is the Coroner's office.

MR. KELBERG: And that is basically 1104 north mission road?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Okay.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: And then the investigator signs it.

MR. KELBERG: There also appears in what I displayed here, something underneath the area of "By" and "Date" and "Time," something "Received from evidence." What does that refer to?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I had mentioned earlier the evidence is dropped in the drop box. There is an evidence custodian for the office who retrieves the evidence from the drop box everyday and transports the evidence to the evidence room where the--all the evidence or all the cases are secured, and if anybody wants to retrieve the evidence, they go to the evidence custodian to get the evidence released to them.

MR. KELBERG: Let me ask Mr. Fairtlough, if he would, please, to put 304-B up so we can see what is the information to be completed on this particular kit.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in essence, is the procedure the same as you just identified?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: By the way, you see--I think we also saw it in the other one--"File," "DR number" and "Agency." What is that information to reflect?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically it refers to the law enforcement agency investigating a particular crime and they have a DR number.

MR. KELBERG: And in this particular case of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman that would be the Los Angeles Police Department?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And whatever their DR number would be?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: May I have just a moment with Mr. Fairtlough, your Honor?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have asked Mr. Fairtlough if he would put on the elmo another photograph which I will ask to be marked as exhibit 305.

(Peo's 305 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: And hopefully he will turn it--the other turning. Thank you, Mr. Fairtlough. And actually I would ask Mr. Fairtlough, if he would, please--Mr. Fairtlough, promised me that this was a very smooth procedure.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: If we could zoom in on the lower package on the left and if we can focus that a little bit. Thank you.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, looking at this particular aspect of photograph, 305, are you familiar with what is shown here?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. This is the photograph of the original envelope used in collecting the fingernail evidence on Miss Brown Simpson.

MR. KELBERG: Now, with respect to the writing that appears in "Agency," "File/DR number," "Decedent's name," "Coroner's case number" and the check marks and then the either initials or signature "By" and the "Date and time," are you familiar with whose writing that is?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Whose is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Claudine Ratcliffe.

MR. KELBERG: And is she expected to complete this information immediately after the collection of the particular material that is contained within this fingernail kit?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And in this particular case that time would be what, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: 1340 hours on June 13th.

MR. KELBERG: And that would be 1:40 in the afternoon?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: There also appears to be a check at "Forensic Science Center." Is that also cleated by Ms. Ratcliffe?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: To reflect where the sample was taken?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, as you look at this particular kit, do you see any check mark in either a yes or no box for the left and right hand fingernail scrapings?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There is no check mark.

MR. KELBERG: Did you, on June 22nd, 1994, along with Dr. Baden, who is seated again in court with us, have an opportunity to review the contents of this particular envelope?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: When you reviewed the contents of this envelope, what, if anything, did you find inside the envelope?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We had evidence of both nail scrapings and clippings on Miss Brown Simpson.

MR. KELBERG: And were the scrapings in individualized envelopes for left hand and right hand?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Were they sealed in the manner you would expect them to be sealed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Does it appear, from what you have found, that Ms. Ratcliffe simply failed to check those two boxes on this particular form?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for a conclusion.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, did there appear to be anything out of the ordinary with respect to what you saw in the interior of that kit that would cause you to have believed that there was a mistake with respect to the collection itself that was inside that envelope, those two packages that are not marked on the front of the envelope?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, from your experience and your knowledge of the practices of your office, did you find anything out of the ordinary with respect to the contents of this fingernail kit?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There was nothing out of the ordinary in the contents, but the envelope failed to demonstrate that fingernail clippings--fingernail scrapings had been collected.

MR. KELBERG: In your opinion was this a mistake on the part of Miss Ratcliffe not in marking the front of the envelope?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for a conclusion.

THE COURT: Overruled.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And doctor, does this mistake by Miss Ratcliffe have any significance to you on any of the issues that you have reviewed with respect to things like cause of death, et cetera?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, irrelevant, compound.

THE COURT: Overruled.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: None.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry, could we go back to the original photograph for just a moment further.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: And the lower part of the envelope, please. This is again back to exhibit 305, the left hand bottom kit and the lower portion. All right.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, now, I would like Mr. Fairtlough to focus in on the part starting with "Evidence collected" and down to the bottom of the envelope. We've already covered the signature of Ms. Ratcliffe and now I want to go to the "Received in evidence room by." Do you recognize a signature in the "By" box or line of that entry?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I do.

MR. KELBERG: Whose signature is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Mr. Steve Patino.

MR. KELBERG: Who is Mr. Patino?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: He was a student worker at the time in the evidence room.

MR. KELBERG: Keep your voice up, please, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: He was a student worker in the evidence room at that time.

MR. KELBERG: And what would his responsibilities be, if any, with respect to handling collected evidence such as this fingernail kit?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: He would retrieve it from the drop box and log it in the evidence room and also document this process in the evidence log sheet of the Coroner's office.

MR. KELBERG: We are going to see the drop box and so forth later. But is Mr. Patino expected, at the time that he collects this from the drop box, to make an entry on the kit itself to show he has obtained possession of it?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What time and date does this entry reflect?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It reflects June 15th, I think seven o'clock in the morning.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is there anything out of the ordinary of your regular custom and practice with respect to a kit being collected on the 13th at 1:40 in the afternoon, placed in the drop box, but not received by someone like Mr. Patino until the 15th?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There is nothing out of the ordinary. Usually they pick up every morning and in this case they picked it up on the 15th. It seems to be received on the 15th.

MR. KELBERG: You will have to keep your voice up.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It has been received on the 15th.

MR. KELBERG: Okay. Now, that is a day and a half later. Is that unusual?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is not unusual.

MR. KELBERG: Underneath that "Received in" is another set of preprinted words, "Delivered to," "By," "Date" and "Time." What is that intended to refer to?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That--as I had mentioned earlier, the evidence custodian is the one who releases evidence from the Coroner's office. Everybody has to go there to collect any evidence. And in this particular situation that "Delivered to," is the name of the person whom this evidence was released to by Mr. Patino on the 24th and I think I read the name G, I think, I-n-d-e-s.

MR. KELBERG: Assume for the moment that is someone named de Grandis. Is that a Coroner employee?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: If we go to the next line, "By," do you recognize that signature?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is Mr. Patino.

MR. KELBERG: And then the entry for "Date and time" that appears next to that, was does that refer to?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the date and time the evidence was released from the Coroner's office.

MR. KELBERG: Which would be in this case?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: June 24, `94, at 9:30 in the morning.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, there appear to be two entries in that series of entries you just referred to. What, if anything, do those two refer to?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Those entries were not made at our office. Once the envelope is released I don't have any idea who entered those, but probably the LAPD.

MR. KELBERG: You did not--that is, your office did not retake or regain custody of this kit and its contents; is that correct, once it was released?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct.

MR. KELBERG: Now, if Mr. Fairtlough could move to the second photograph and focus in on the same area of that photograph that we were just focusing in on exhibit 305.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, does this appear to be the back side of the envelope, the fingernail kit, for Ms. Nicole Brown Simpson that you were just viewing in the previous photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, may this be marked as I believe we are at exhibit 306, is it?

THE COURT: 306.

(Peo's 306 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, there appear to be kind of an American flag; we have a white, a red and a blue. Can you tell us which, if any, of those are Coroner materials?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The original white I already showed you. That is the seal which is broken when the envelope is opened. The red is a seal which is placed after the evidence is collected.

MR. KELBERG: Placed by whom, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: By the investigator when the envelope is sealed back.

MR. KELBERG: So in this case that would be Ms. Ratcliffe?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And is she expected to initial this in some fashion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Do you see her initials somewhere?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I'm looking.

MR. KELBERG: You will have to speak up, doctor, so look first and speak up afterwards.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I don't see anything in the photograph.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There is an initial there.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if you are going to be speak, it is going to be very helpful if you can speak into the be microphone, so look first.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There is an initial on the tag there, but I'm not sure whether it is her initial or just on the right side. I don't see any initial here.

MR. KELBERG: But she is expected to initial it; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor--and I think we are done with that particular photograph.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: And I have asked Mr. Fairtlough to put another photograph on the board. On the elmo, excuse me.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: And your Honor, may this be marked as exhibit 307?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Peo's 307 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are you familiar with what is shown in this particular photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is this?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the hair kit of Miss Brown Simpson, Nicole, which was collected on June 13th, `94.

MR. KELBERG: If Mr. Fairtlough could zoom in at the top portion. Fine. That is great.

MR. KELBERG: Again, do you recognize the handwriting or printing that appears in the areas with LAPD and a number and underneath that decedent's name and Coroner's case number?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Whose is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The--this is the handwriting of Miss Claudine Ratcliffe.

MR. KELBERG: And there are now--mister--Mr. Fairtlough can raise the photograph so we see a little further down on it and stop in this area, (Indicating). Doctor, there appear to be boxes that have I believe "X's" on them. Do you see that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Who is expected to make those "X's" on this particular form?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Miss Ratcliffe.

MR. KELBERG: In this particular case what do those "X's" reflect?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That certain types of hair was collected.

MR. KELBERG: What types of hair were collected?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Head, facial and arm hair was collected.

MR. KELBERG: And the last entry that has no box collected I can't quite make out. Can you tell us what that would represent?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Chest hair.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor we drop down to just about the end of that white tape, there appears to be a signature and a date and a time. Do you recognize that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Whose signature?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Miss Claudine Ratcliffe.

MR. KELBERG: And again the time and date reflect what?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: June 13th, `94, 1340 hours, which is 1:40 in the afternoon.

MR. KELBERG: Approximately when this material was collected?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is she expected to put in the time approximately when this material was collected in these particular boxes?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, the white tape, does that have any significance to you? There is white and red that we see along the side here.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is not from our office. It is from the lab which was doing the examination of the evidence.

MR. KELBERG: It is not from the Coroner's office, though?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: All right. If we will drop to the bottom now, if perhaps Mr. Fairtlough could raise the document again.

MR. KELBERG: What are the entries that we are seeing here?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The similar entries which we saw on the other kit. Mr. Patino retrieved this evidence from the drop box on June 15th at seven o'clock in the morning.

MR. KELBERG: And then underneath that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: He delivered the evidence to the same person, Mr. Grandis, on June 24th at 9:30.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry. Keep your voice up, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Mr. Grandis on June 24th at 9:30 got the evidence from Mr. Patino.

MR. KELBERG: And the entries that appear below the ones you have just described are not made by anyone from the Coroner's office; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct.

MR. KELBERG: I have another photograph that I will ask Mr. Fairtlough to please put on the elmo. And ask, your Honor, that this will be marked--I think we are up to 307.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: 308.

THE COURT: 308.

(Peo's 308 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, does this appear to be the back of the envelope that was just previously up on the screen regarding the hair kit of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And the white seal that is running hor--I'm sorry--vertically in the center top portion, is that a Coroner's seal?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What about the red seals that form an "X"? What are those?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Umm, those could be the--again our evidence--you see, this particular piece of evidence, where retrieved by Claudine, sealed, then again on the 22nd we again examined them with Dr. Baden and again resealed by us.

MR. KELBERG: Keep your voice up, please, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It was resealed by us.

MR. KELBERG: You resealed it, you and--I'm sorry--after you and Dr. Baden had reviewed the contents of this envelope?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: But all of the seals that we are looking at in the center, the white and the two red, are Los Angeles County Coroner's seals of the envelope; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: I have another photograph that I will ask Mr. Fairtlough put to the elmo and ask that it be marked 309, your Honor.

THE COURT: 309.

(Peo's 309 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are you familiar with what is shown in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. This is the evidence envelope reflecting the hair kit collection on Mr. Ron Goldman.

MR. KELBERG: And if Mr. Fairtlough can zoom in on the upper portion. Thank you.

MR. KELBERG: The entries that appear there for agency, DR number, decedent's name and Coroner's case number, do you recognize the writing?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Whose writing?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Claudine Ratcliffe.

MR. KELBERG: Again now if we drop down a little bit, there appear to be a series of boxes which are checked. What do those entries reflect?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically collection of hair from Mr. Ron Goldman; head hair, facial hair and arm hair were collected.

MR. KELBERG: And in this exhibit there is also a "No" box checked; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: To reflect what?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Chest hair was not collected.

MR. KELBERG: And if Mr. Fairtlough could drop down a bit.

MR. KELBERG: Now, we are back at the "Evidence collected" portion of the document. Do you recognize the entries that appear there?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What do they reflect?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Miss Claudine Ratcliffe collected them at the Forensic Science Center June 13th, and at 1440 hours.

MR. KELBERG: And dropping down even further, there are some entries. Do you recognize who made those entries?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. It was received in the evidence room by Mr. Patino on June 15th, `94, at seven o'clock.

MR. KELBERG: Then even dropping down further, we have some more entries. What do they reflect?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The evidence was released to Mr. Grandis by Mr. Patino on June 24th, `94, at 9:30 in the morning.

MR. KELBERG: Again there are some entries underneath the ones you have just referred to. Were those made by your personnel?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: And I have asked Mr. Fairtlough to put another photograph on the board or the elmo. I'm used to board. Sorry, your Honor. May this be marked as exhibit 310?

THE COURT: Yes, People's 310.

(Peo's 310 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are you familiar with what is shown in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is just a sealed envelope, the reverse side.

MR. KELBERG: Reverse side of the envelope you were just looking at?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Please keep your voice up.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, basically your answers regarding this envelope, the white and the two red cross seals, be the same as your answers were for the back side of the earlier envelope?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, the Court may wish to cut the feed. I'm not sure that that is necessary, but out of an abundance of caution. I would ask, your Honor, that this photograph be marked--I think we are up to 311.

THE COURT: People's 311.

(Peo's 311 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: If Mr. Fairtlough could zoom in just a little bit so we could read the writing. Center it a little bit.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in photograph 311--actually if could you raise it just a little bit, Mr. Fairtlough, so that we can see that blue--the blue rectangular item in this photograph. Doctor, first of all, in general terms, what is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the fingernail clippings which was taken on Miss Simpson which was opened by Dr. Baden and myself on June 22nd and this is a photograph to reflect the contents of the envelope.

MR. KELBERG: And I was asking actually I think, doctor, on what this blue rectangular item is that the arrow was by at the moment?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The blue rectangular is a measuring--is a card which we use whenever we take a photograph in the Coroner's office. It has got a built-in ruler and you inscribed the Coroner's case number and the date and the name of the photograph, who takes the photograph, and it is always placed in any Coroner's photograph.

MR. KELBERG: The numbers that we see both on the envelope and on the measuring card, 94-5136, is this the individualized number for the case of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And this type of blue measuring card is to be in every photograph that is taken as a part of any case that is being photographed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, the measuring aspect of this card, what is it?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is in inches and the measure device usually has up to three inches.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor--if Mr. Fairtlough could move the arrow to my left and to the white piece of paper. And there appear to be a series of items on this white piece of paper. What are those items?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Right hand fingernail clippings from Miss Brown Simpson.

MR. KELBERG: Did you remove those clippings when they were in that bindle with the bindle having been in the envelope that is seen in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We just opened and saw it. We didn't handle it. We closed it back. I have minutes of the meeting what we exactly did.

MR. KELBERG: Is it in the course of this examination that you found that there were scraping envelopes collected?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. And I would like to refer to my minutes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Certainly.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, while Dr. Lakshmanan is doing that, I'm asking Mr. Fairtlough to put another photograph up that I ask to be marked as 312.

THE COURT: All right.

(Peo's 312 for id = photograph)

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have the minutes in front of me.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry, doctor, have you had a chance to review whatever you needed to?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And what does it refresh your memory about?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: These are the right hand fingernail clippings which we viewed.

MR. KELBERG: And now, in this photograph that has been marked as exhibit 312, what is shown in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is a close-up photograph of the nail clippings.

MR. KELBERG: As you and Dr. Baden had an opportunity to examine them?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: I think we are done with that photograph and if we could go back to--

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: --I believe it is photograph 304 that we were looking at when we did a close-up of the tray with respect to fingernail kit.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, now inviting your attention, if Mr. Fairtlough could take the arrow to the top, the countertop of the area displayed here, doctor, do you see some items on the countertop that are used by someone like Ms. Ratcliffe with the bodies as the bodies are brought into this room?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. This is the fingerprint kit which is used to take fingerprints.

MR. KELBERG: And what kind of fingerprints would someone be expected to take from a body when the body arrives at the area that is shown in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We usually take all the fingers and also the palmprints.

MR. KELBERG: Did you find, doctor, once you reviewed this case, that there had been a mistake made with respect to any of the fingerprinting or palmprinting of either of the decedents, Nicole Brown Simpson or Mr. Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What mistake or mistakes did you find were made?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They took the--in Nicole Brown Simpson apparently only the right hand palmprints were taken. The left hand palmprints were not taken.

MR. KELBERG: Did you examine the card of the prints that were taken?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, I did not, because they were already released, but I have copies of the card.

MR. KELBERG: Is there a separate card to reflect the left palm and the right palm?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: In the back of the fingerprint card, actually. You have it in the back of the fingerprint cards.

MR. KELBERG: And did the copies of the card that you have show some kind of entry in each side, that is, for a left and a right?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have to check the card copy.

MR. KELBERG: All right. Could you refresh your memory if you would, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: (Witness complies.) I only have the front copy, I don't have the back, because it was released--the cards were released already I think.

MR. KELBERG: To whom were the cards released?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: To the LAPD and they were the ones who informed us that the palmprints were not taken--left hand was not available.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in your opinion does the absence of a left palmprint from Nicole Brown Simpson affect your ability to evaluate the issues that you've evaluated?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, your Honor. That is an issue for the jury to determine.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. KELBERG: You may answer.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, no.

MR. KELBERG: I have another photograph, your Honor, I ask be marked as exhibit 313.

(Peo's 313 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are you familiar with what is shown in this photograph, 314--313, excuse me?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the area where the drop box is located where after the evidence is collected from the decedents it is placed in this kind of drop box and an evidence log is maintained.

MR. KELBERG: And doctor, if Mr. Fairtlough could zoom in on that mailbox like device, and there appears to be some kind of brown envelope in about the middle. Do you see that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And now he zoomed in where I think you can read something. What does that reflect?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the space where the evidence log cards are placed after the evidence has been dropped off in the drop box.

MR. KELBERG: When you say "Log cards are placed," is something to be completed by someone on that card?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: By whom?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The investigator on a particular case.

MR. KELBERG: Like Ms. Ratcliffe?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And is she expected, when she drops this off, to fill in what information?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There are two log sheets here. One is the evidence log card which belongs to a particular case, so we can have a chain of custody of the evidence. The other is--there is a drop-off log sheet which is also available next to the drop box wherein it is indicated who dropped off what evidence in the drop off box.

MR. KELBERG: And she is expected to complete both documents?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What happens with the log card that is placed back in this envelope that is seen in this photograph, 313?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The--this evidence log card is retrieved by the evidence custodian who retrieves the evidence from the drop box.

MR. KELBERG: And what does the custodian--that would be Mr. Patino?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What does he do with it when he retrieves it?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: He retrieves it and it is a card which is used by him and information is completed as and when the evidence is released from the Coroner's office, so there is a chain of custody for the evidence. And if you look at the log sheet, which we will see later, you will have when the evidence was collected, when it was received in the evidence room, to whom it was released, et cetera.

MR. KELBERG: Is that document completed in the ordinary course of business for the Coroner's office by its employees?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And are the entries expected to be made at or near the time of the events which are recorded?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: I have another photograph I will ask Mr. Fairtlough to put on the elmo and ask that that be marked as 314, please, your Honor.

(Peo's 314 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, is this another view of the drop box?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: But we are now seeing both the front portion of the mailbox and what appears to be the right side of the mailbox; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: There also appears to be a brown envelope of some sort on the right side. What is that all about?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the place where the fingerprint cards are placed after the fingerprints have been obtained on a decedent.

MR. KELBERG: And that is to be placed by whom?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The person collecting the fingerprints.

MR. KELBERG: In this case who was that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Mr. Jacobo.

MR. KELBERG: And what happens to the card once it is placed there?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is--it is--it is retrieved by the evidence custodian also.

MR. KELBERG: And that would be like a Mr. Patino?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What does Mr. Patino do with that once he collects it?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: He maintains the same information on the log sheet which I alluded to earlier so that we will have a chain of custody of the fingerprint cards in the Coroner's office.

MR. KELBERG: Is there anything else about the process of the collection of the hair kits, the nail kits and the deposit of those kits as collected that we have not covered that you feel should be brought out?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is important, you can see a lock there, nobody else has access to that lock except the evidence custodian, so that there is complete security of the evidence once it is dropped off in the lock box, and that is important.

MR. KELBERG: I will ask Mr. Fairtlough to put another photograph on. Ask that it be marked, your Honor, as exhibit 315.

THE COURT: People's 315.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

(Peo's 315 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Lynch has offered me a good suggestion.

MR. KELBERG: With that box, you say it has got a lock. How could anybody get in to drop something off?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is like a mailbox on the upper part. You can drop in the evidence, but to retrieve it you need to open it and retrieve it from the lower portion.

MR. KELBERG: And is it fair to say that the security that is provided would be the same as if one wanted to retrieve the letter that they inadvertently dropped in a mailbox?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct.

MR. KELBERG: Now, let's see if we can go to this photograph that is up on the elmo, exhibit 315.

MR. KELBERG: What are we looking at here, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the area in the refrigerated room in the Coroner's office where the bodies are placed prior to autopsy. This is an area off the refrigerated crypt space where the homicide cases are kept.

MR. KELBERG: When you say "Crypt space," you mentioned crypt space before and you mentioned spaces 3 and 4 for Ms. Brown Simpson and Mr. Goldman is. This the area you are talking about?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, no, no. This is the area where we keep all the homicide cases in the crypt space which was earmarked is the space where the bodies are placed after the autopsy and before release, so we can locate the remains at that point.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is this area secure in any fashion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I mean, the whole building is secure and this is a separate entry area into the refrigerated--you see the door there. That is an automatic door entry to the refrigerated crypt space area, and the only people who have access are the employees of the Coroner's office, the forensic attendants and the technicians.

MR. KELBERG: We are looking from the inside towards the door that would lead to the outside of this area?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, why do you have this area refrigerated?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because you are storing human remains so that you prevent further deterioration of the body condition which happens after death.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, you have testified that the bodies were received at the Forensic Science Center on June 13th of 1994. Was any autopsy performed on either body on June 13th, 1994?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Is that standard procedure?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, because usually the autopsies are performed the next day. Sometime we do perform autopsies the same day, depending on our case load, but generally the autopsies are performed the following day or the day after, soon after the investigative information is available to the doctor.

MR. KELBERG: Did the bodies of Nicole Brown Simpson and Mr. Goldman come to be placed in this room sometime on the 13th of June, 1994?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Had you examined either body prior to the time they were placed in this room?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: When did you first see either body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Sometime in the midday of June 13th when I was made aware of these two deaths and I met Miss Claudine Ratcliffe and we went down together to look at the decedents in the decedent processing room which I had shown--which we had shown earlier on a photograph.

MR. KELBERG: The processing room is the fingernail kits, the hair kit area?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: When you saw--saw both bodies?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: Were they both clothed when you saw them?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Did you examine them in any detailed fashion at that time?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. I just examined briefly the external front aspect of both the decedents and at that point I asked Miss Ratcliffe whether a criminalist had been to the scene and I had information that no criminalist had gone to the scene. So I made sure that our criminalist from our office examines the decedents and I called the chief of laboratories and Mr. Mahanay, who is our criminalist at our office, came to look at both the decedents.

MR. KELBERG: I think we will get into that a bit later.

MR. KELBERG: Did you do anything other than what you have described with respect to examining the body on the 13th?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I also wanted to assign the cases to a physician and that is the day I looked at my schedule and I requested Dr. Golden to do both autopsies.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, take us through the process, if any, that you used in deciding to ask Dr. Golden to perform the autopsies in these two cases.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I had to see who is the experienced pathologist we have who are available, not only on the day these two decedents were brought at our office, which is June 13th, but will the day following and June 15th, because sometimes an autopsy may take more time than necessary. And Dr. Golden was one of the physicians who was available all the three days, as I saw on the schedule, and the others--as I told you earlier, I have twelve board certified forensic pathologists and he was one of the pathologists who was available.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, is there a chief under you who is in charge of the forensic medicine division of the Coroner's office?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Who is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Dr. Rogers.

MR. KELBERG: Would he be described as the no. 2 man in your operation?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is he board certified?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Do you consider him to be an experienced and competent forensic pathologist?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Was he available for the three days you felt were necessary, the day that you were seeing the bodies, the 13th, and the two subsequent days?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: He was not. He was on medical leave.

MR. KELBERG: Was there any other forensic pathologist who you felt might be better suited for these particular cases?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. I consider all my forensic pathologists to be--who are board certified as experienced and capable, but I do have three senior physicians who also do complex cases when the necessity arises, and all three of them were not working all three days.

MR. KELBERG: Who are the others--do the three include Dr. Rogers?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Who are the three you are talking about?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Dr. Sherry, Dr. Ribe and Dr. Carpenter.

MR. KELBERG: Why did you feel it was necessary that whoever was to be assigned the cases had to be there the 13th and the 14th? I think you explained why there may be a need to go over to the 15th, but why did you feel the need for the 13th?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is very important when you have a homicide case that somebody sees the remains when they are clothed, when the evidence has been collected, and then follow up with their autopsy and then follow through the process of dictation and determining the final cause and manner of death.

MR. KELBERG: And none of these three were available for the three days that you described?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Not all of three days because one of them was off on Mondays and the other physician was off on Tuesdays and Wednesday, and the third physician was off on Wednesday, and furthermore, they also are the administrative type of physicians who--who are called operation officers, which I mentioned on Friday, who determine the extent of examination and assign cases, and they do the examinations in the office, that is, the cases which we don't autopsy, they do the examinations.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, why didn't you do the autopsies? You are the top man there.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is a good question to ask, but I have other responsibilities being the Chief Medical Examiner Coroner. I have numerous responsibilities. I was also doing the administrative function of Dr. Rogers.

MR. KELBERG: Did you see these as high-publicity cases?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Did you think that it might be beneficial to you personally to handle these cases?

MR. SHAPIRO: Irrelevant.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is there a book called "Coroner to the Stars"?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, irrelevant.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor--

THE COURT: Mr. Kelberg, would this be a good place to take a break?

MR. KELBERG: Anytime you want, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take our regular 10:30 break. Please remember all my admonitions. Please don't discuss the case amongst yourselves, form any opinions about the case, don't allow anybody to communicate with you, don't conduct any deliberations until the matter has been submitted to you. We will take a break for fifteen minutes. All right. Doctor, you can step down.

(Recess.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Back on the record in the Simpson matter. All parties are again present. All right. Deputy Magnera, let's have the jurors, please.

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. All right. Let the record reflect that we've been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Dr. Lakshmanan is again on the witness stand undergoing direct examination by Mr. Kelberg. And, Mr. Kelberg, you may resume with your direct examination.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. I have another photograph for Mr. Fairtlough. And actually before you put it on, Mr. Fairtlough, a couple more questions of Dr. Lakshmanan.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I was asking you why you did not consider performing the autopsies on these two cases. Were there any other reasons that you took into account for deciding not to?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: As I told you, I have numerous responsibilities as a Coroner for Los Angeles. I'm responsible for the quality of the reports which go on all the 6,000 autopsies we do, another 5,000 examinations which we do, and I'm also available for other functions in the office. And it's all enumerated--all my functions are enumerated in my curriculum vitae. But besides the point, I feel that the comple--different cases have to be experienced by different pathologists in my department so they're all capable of doing complex cases.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, you've used this term again, "Complex cases." Did you consider each of these two cases to be a complex case?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Not in the type of case itself, but the number of injuries they have.

MR. KELBERG: Tell us more how you distinguish between these two concepts.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: When you--when you refer to the case complex, complex--complexity may refer to the number of injuries a particular decedent has and complexity can also refer to a difficult medical case where there's been hospitalization and lot of medical problems which had to be correlated with pathological findings, and that will be a different type of complexity. A child abuse case could be more complex than a case like this where you have injuries which are clearly observable.

MR. KELBERG: When you're talking about more complex in the sense that you've mentioned child abuse cases and so forth, is that a thought process requiring a more experienced individual than maybe a younger forensic pathologist in your office?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, it--it would be preferable for a more experienced person doing the case. But in our office, we have all the board certified pathologists and also fellows in training who do the cases, but they work under the supervision of the experienced pathologist. So what I'm trying to say is, every as--every type of case can be handled by any of one of my--any one of my pathologists with the assistance or without the assistance of other experienced pathologists.

MR. KELBERG: Would you consider the case of Nicole Brown Simpson from a forensic pathology standpoint to be a bread and butter type of case for a Los Angeles County Deputy Medical Examiner?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Why?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because this is a kind of homicide case we see routinely in our office, and any given day, we have about ten--eight to ten homicide cases being performed and we have a significant number of them which have sharp force injuries, blunt force injuries or firearm injuries.

MR. KELBERG: And would the same opinion apply with respect to the case of Mr. Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Bread and butter?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: For the same reasons?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, if Mr. Fairtlough could put on this photograph. And, this, your Honor, I would ask to be marked 316.

THE COURT: All right. People's 316.

(Peo's 316 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are you familiar with what's shown in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That also shows the same refrigerated crypt space, but you're looking at it from the outside of the door. You saw the photograph from the inside. This is from the outside.

MR. KELBERG: And now if we could go to the laser disk no. 55, please.

MR. KELBERG: And, doctor--

MR. KELBERG: And, your Honor, I would ask this be marked as 317.

THE COURT: People's 317.

(Peo's 317 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: What is this that's shown in this photograph, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is another autopsy room in the Coroner's office. This is a smaller room, and these have crypt spaces with doors which can be locked. And what you're seeing is two doors in which there are crypt spaces available, and this would give more security to the bodies if the doors are locked. And in the normal process over the years, we use this crypt space for bodies which are decomposed or skeletonized remains. And this area--

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry. Skeletonized remains?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Skeletonized--partially skeletonized remains. And this area of the crypt space in our office is reserved for these type of decedents.

MR. KELBERG: And is this crypt space what you were referring to earlier in nos. 3 and 4 or something else?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. No. 3 and 4 was referred to the crypt space in the other area, in the refrigerated crypt space.

MR. KELBERG: Anything else about this photograph, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Nothing else.

MR. KELBERG: If we could move to no. 24, please. And I'd ask, your Honor, this be 318.

THE COURT: All right. 318.

(Peo's 318 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: What is shown in this photograph, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the area of the office where photographs are taken. This is the photo studio area of the office. And the decedent's clothing is removed. They're photographed before the clothing is removed, and after the clothing is removed, body is washed. All the photographs are taken here.

MR. KELBERG: Let's start this process. First of all, in the cases of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, when is this process taking place?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It took place on June 14th in the morning.

MR. KELBERG: And what is the process? Take us step by step what is the process.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The process is, the photographer takes the remains to this photo studio area. He makes a blue photographic--you know, the blue card which we saw earlier, that is completed for each decedent. And one of the procedures in the Coroner's office is to take a picture of the card and the id band so you know you're taking the picture of that person, and the number is also cross-checked. Then photographs are taken of the decedent with the clothing on in the condition they are seen at that time. Following this process, the photographer removes the clothing and places them in the clothing rack which you saw earlier sometime. And the body is washed and photographed with special attention to injuries. And one of the important steps in the photography would be to take a photograph of the injury so that the anatomical region can be identified, and then a close-up photograph is also taken so that the injury can be better documented. And this is one stage of the photography of a decedent before autopsy.

MR. KELBERG: Is the medical examiner who is going to perform the autopsy expected to examine the body at the time the photographs are first being taken with the clothes on?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Usually the medical examiner will examine the body before the photographs are taken and sometimes during the process itself. It depends. And in this particular situation, Dr. Golden saw the bodies with me on the 13th.

MR. KELBERG: In the clothed condition?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, was anything done to the bodies between the 13th and the 14th when they're going to be photographed clothed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I told you that Mr. Mahanay, our criminalist, saw the remains along with Miss Claudine Ratcliffe to see whether any other evidence needs to be collected, and I think--not I think. On Miss Nicole Brown Simpson, he collected bloodstains which were found in the right lower extremity, which is the thigh and cuff area, and he collected that as physical evidence, and that was submitted on the 13th. And he examined the bodies with Miss Claudine Ratcliffe. I was also present at that time, before he collected the evidence rather, and that process also took place in addition to the nail collection, the hair collection, the fingerprint card processing, and this all happened on the 13th. Dr. Golden and I looked at the bodies on the 13th and then Dr. Golden did the autopsies on the 14th and the photographic process took place on the 14th of June, 1994. And--

MR. KELBERG: Incident--I'm sorry.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's--I stop.

MR. KELBERG: In selecting Dr. Golden to perform these two autopsies, had you become familiar with Dr. Golden's performance in any other high publicity double homicides?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. He did the Menendez decedents who died and it was a double murder, and he has been with the office for 15--14 years as I mentioned earlier. He's one of our experienced pathologists who has done many demanding complex cases for the Coroner's office. As I told you, he has done over 5,000 cases. He always handles them consistent manner. And to answer your question, he had handled other high profile complex cases before.

MR. KELBERG: As of the 14th--13th of June actually, 1994, had you been aware of any cases in which Dr. Golden had been the forensic pathologist in which he had made what you believed to be a major mistake in the course of his duties as a forensic pathologist autopsying a body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Not that I was aware of.

MR. KELBERG: Subsequent to your involvement in this case, have you become aware of several such cases?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: We're going to get into that later. But at the time you assigned Dr. Golden, were you aware of any such problems?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, in going through this process, the bodies are photographed clothed first and then you said the clothing is removed by the photographer; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Are the bodies then rephotographed basically in the same place in the same position with the clothing removed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: What is the next step?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The--the--correction. That photography may have taken place, but also the body is washed and then photographed.

MR. KELBERG: Why do you wash the body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because when you have bloodstains on the body from injuries, they obscure the details of the injury. The purpose of the photography is to document the injuries so that there's a permanent documentation of the injuries in a manner that can be easily evaluated by any qualified professional forensic pathologist to make an interpretation of the injury pattern seen. So if you don't wash the bodies, one, you'll miss injuries. No. 2, you won't have a proper documentation because when you have blood staining which are dried up, it will cause problems in interpretation.

MR. KELBERG: What is used to wash the bodies?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They use soap and water and also the sponge, soft sponge so that the blood staining can be removed. And this is the reason that any evidence collection which needs to be done is done before photography because after the body is washed, you really cannot collect any evidence--

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is it expected--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: --external evidence.

MR. KELBERG: Is it expected that some examination will be done at the time that these photographs are taken of the head of each decedent to see whether or not any injuries may be covered by the hair over the head?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is the process that takes place?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Usually the--the forensic autopsy photographic technician who does the process will look at the head region separating the hairs and looking for any injury while he's washing the body because when you have a bloodstain and you wash the bloodstain off, you can perceive the injuries when you do this process. But sometimes you may not be able to see the injuries clearly and which is corrected--not corrected--which is taken care of when the body's autopsied. When you open the head to reflect the skin of the scalp, you see the hemorrhage from injuries, and then you can retrace your steps, go back to the skin surface wherein you may see an injury which you did not see earlier because of the--which you have not seen earlier, and then you can shave the hair and observe the injury better. So that is a process which can take place during the photography if you see the injury when you separate the hair or the shaving can take place during the autopsy itself. Then you observe the injury better.

MR. KELBERG: And initially, at the time of the photography being performed, who is expected--in the case of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, who is expected to do the initial examination and, if necessary, shaving?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The photographer, they are very experienced in our office. They will automatically see the--any particular injury and they will shave the area and photograph the area.

MR. KELBERG: Are they trained in--to look for those very things that you've just described?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And what do they use to shave the hair?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Regular fresh scalpel blade which is used to shave the hair after you use the soap and water there.

MR. KELBERG: Now, the washing of the body that you've described has already occurred before the shaving of the hair; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It's part of the whole--all these things occur during the same time. That is, you wash the body, you wash the hair area also because naturally, when you have so much bleeding--in these two victims, you had a lot of head and neck injuries, which we'll be discussing later, where there is blood staining in the hair and also soaking which has to be washed off and then you perceive the injuries.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is it common that when hair is shaved from the decedent's body, that some loose hair will remain clinging to the body when the autopsy is actually performed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It's--it can happen.

MR. KELBERG: And in fact, you have examined all of the autopsy photographs taken in this case of both Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: In some of the photographs in each case, do you see what appear to be the remnants of hair that has been shared in the course of the process you've described?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Anything unusual about that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, if--we've got the head shaved. What is the next step with respect to the bodies?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The photography usually takes place the same day of the autopsy, and once the photographer has done the photography, if there is necessity to do x-rays and fluoroscopy--especially this happens in deaths from firearms--that is the next stage of the processing of the decedents in the Coroner's office. They go to the fluoroscopy or x-ray room and x-rays are taken, as I told you, if there is an injury from firearms because our x-rays are taken to localize projectiles, and that is the next stage if that is necessary.

MR. KELBERG: Number one, was the fluoroscope used in either case here?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Was an x-ray taken or more than one x-ray taken in either case here?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Nicole Brown Simpson had x-rays taken at a later stage of the spinal specimen, which was removed during autopsy. We didn't do any x-rays on the day of the autopsy.

MR. KELBERG: What's a fluoroscope?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Fluoroscopy is an x-ray process by which you can see the body as you're looking--you look at--you look at the x-ray picture on a monitor, but you don't take the x-ray. So you have--you can screen the body. Basically the body is screened with the fluoroscope. And once you localize an area of the body where there's a particular projectile or foreign body which is radiopaque, then you shoot an x-ray of that particular area.

MR. KELBERG: Why was no fluoroscope used in this--in these two cases?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because it was not felt--not indicated. There was no firearm injury and--

MR. KELBERG: Do you feel that it was indicated in either case after your review of everything?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I think x-rays of the head and neck could have been useful.

MR. KELBERG: In what way?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because when you have an injury from sharp force injury--especially tips of weapons can sometimes--especially a knife can sometimes break especially in the--when they impinge on the scull area or the facial area, and that can be picked up on an x-ray. Fluoroscope may not pick up a small fragment of a knife, but an x-ray will. So in hair and neck sharp force trauma deaths, an x-ray may be indicated to exclude that possibility. In this particular situation, on Miss Nicole Brown Simpson, the only bony injury which Dr. Golden saw during his autopsy was the spine, third thoracic spine which was injured. So we had the whole specimen itself and--but I ordered x-rays on the spinal specimen at a later date to make sure that we don't have any metallic fragment left in the spine, and this was done at a later stage.

MR. KELBERG: And did you find that there was any metallic fragment left?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, in your opinion, does the absence of an x-ray of the head or neck, other than the one you've described in the case of Nicole Brown Simpson, diminish your ability to determine any of the issues that you have reviewed in this case?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: And would your answer be the same with respect to your ability to evaluate the issues that you have in the circumstance of Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough, no. 54, please.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what are we looking at in what I would ask to be marked exhibit 319?

MR. KELBERG: May it be so marked, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Peo's 319 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Now what is this, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the same third autopsy room I was mentioning where you have the crypt spaces with doors available to secure the decedents. What we have--this room is being shown to show the portable x-ray machine in this room which is available because what has happened is, our current x-ray machine is being--being replaced with a new x-ray machine. So right now, we are doing portable x-rays only. We are not doing any fluoroscopy at this time.

MR. KELBERG: And how long have you been waiting for the new machine?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It's being installed. We should be in operation in the next few weeks. It's a supposedly state of the art x-ray machine.

MR. KELBERG: If we could have--oh, I'm sorry. You mentioned this is the third autopsy room?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What--you have three autopsy rooms. Is that safe to say from what you said?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. We have a main autopsy room with six autopsy stations, we have another autopsy room with five autopsy stations, and this is the third autopsy room, which is used for cases where the bodies are decomposed or where there is a communicable disease suspected. This room has negative air exchange flow available and this is a room we use for such cases. This has three autopsy stations. So basically we have capability of 14 autopsy stations which are used.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what do you mean--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: And we also use this room for examinations.

MR. KELBERG: What do you mean by "Negative air exchange flow"?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is basically the--when you have air coming into a room, the same air is not recirculated. It's--it's--it's--it's removed from the autopsy room to a suction type of situation.

MR. KELBERG: Why do you do that in the cases such as you've indicated are autopsied in this room?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because these communicable diseases, as I've mentioned, is done there. We also have decomposed bodies being done there. You have the--in the latter, you have the situation of smell and that factor. And the communicable disease situation, you have aerosolization of microorganisms which are more--the potential is higher. Not that every case, you have to treat as though it could be potentially infectious. And in our office, protective clothing, mask and eye shields are used on by the doctors and technicians on every case entering the high risk area. We call all these areas a high risk areas, but this has an additional feature to this room where there's negative air flow available.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, on any given day at your office--you say you have 14 autopsy stations. I assume "Station" means there's a table and whatever necessary accouterment are required by your medical examiner. How many of those stations are being used to conduct autopsies?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Any given day, I would say at least 10 or 11 are being used. Sometimes all 13, 14 can be used. We handle 19,000 inquiries. We bring in 10,000 bodies to the central office. 6,000 autopsies on an average are performed a year, 2500 homicides--I mean investigated as homicide. We treat them like homicides and 2,000 are certified as homicides every year. And even though only 6,000 autopsies approximately take place every year, you have 4,000 cases which are examined which kept partial or just an examination, and those kind of examinations take place in this third autopsy room.

MR. KELBERG: Incidentally, doctor, does your office perform autopsies seven days of the week?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And so when you were saying how Dr.--I'm not sure if it was Sherry or Rebie--was off on Tuesday or Wednesday when you're talking about going through the process of who was available to handle the case, those would be the normal days off for some of your doctors?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: And such a doctor would then be working on Saturday and/or Sunday?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I have--see, as I told you, there are senior doctors who do the triaging for the Coroner's office who make that important decision which bodies need to get autopsied. As you know, the autopsies are--cost the taxpayer about 2,000 plus dollars a case, and we are to be cognizant in what we do, which case, because our mandate is--determine the cost and manner of death, and that decision is made by the senior doctor on the call that day.

MR. KELBERG: Is the term "Triage" something that might apply to what that doctor is doing?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What does that mean?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is, you select the cases which need--and you decide the extent of examination based on the circumstances. Some cases like a 20-Year old who suddenly drops dead by playing football will need a full autopsy and everything to try and find out what happened. But somebody with known heart disease or has history of heart disease who suddenly--who's had two bypass surgeries, who suddenly collapses but has not seen a physician in 20 days becomes a Coroner's case. In that particular situation, you just do an examination and--because the circumstances point to that person having had a natural death and most of them might have--some of them might have gone to a hospital and you may have enough medical information to give a cause and manner of death. So that's where the differentiation comes, or we may just do a limited exam of the heart in that particular situation. So this is where the senior doctor makes that important decision, the extent of examination.

MR. KELBERG: Dr. Golden was not one of these senior doctors, was he?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, he was not.

MR. KELBERG: Why wasn't he one of your senior doctors?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I don't think he applied for the position. Some physicians don't like to have administrative responsibilities. They just like to do their routine, regular work and they want to be there--he didn't apply.

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough, if we could have no. 26, please.

MR. KELBERG: What are we looking at in this photo which I would ask the Court to mark as exhibit 320.

(Peo's 320 for id = photograph)

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Oh, this is the room where the drying rack--you know, the clothing which is taken off the decedents are placed to dry. They're initially kept in the photo area and then moved to this room. You can see that the clothing is all being air dried in this room. And it's important that the drying takes place--air drying. You don't--that's the only way to dry the clothing.

MR. KELBERG: Why do you want to dry the clothing, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because if you wrap clothing which is moist with blood or body fluids, you will have growth of mold. And the reason you dry the clothing is, if any evidence needs to be collected from the clothing, especially body fluids or bloodstains, it has to be air dried and you should not have contamination of overgrowth of fungus or bacteria. So air dried and then you wrap it in paper.

MR. KELBERG: And who is responsible, number one, for getting the clothing from the photography room to this drying area?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The photographer. And then from this stage, the evidence custodian takes the process over.

MR. KELBERG: Who was the photographer in these two cases?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: John Marsden, J-O-H-N M-A-R-S-D-E-N.

MR. KELBERG: And then who was responsible for taking over the collection of the clothing to the drying room?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I don't recall the name exactly, but it's in the evidence log sheet. I think it's Mr.--

MR. KELBERG: You can refresh your memory if you need to from that document.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I'll do that.

(Brief pause.)

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The--as I mentioned, Mr. John Marsden removed the clothing. Mr. Patino received the clothing in the evidence room.

MR. KELBERG: On what date if it's indicated on a document?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: June 16th. On Nicole, it was 16th.

MR. KELBERG: And on Mr. Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have to refer to his--I think it's the same date, but I have to check.

MR. KELBERG: All right. I'll collect that, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Doesn't--the books are thick.

(Brief pause.)

DR. LAKSHMANAN: On Mr. Goldman, it was September the 20th. So it's a different date.

MR. KELBERG: And who was the person who was responsible--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Mr. Patino.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, what is used to wrap the clothing?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I said paper is used, brown paper.

MR. KELBERG: Why is brown paper used?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because paper is the best material to use for wrapping clothing because you want air flow in the--around the clothing even when it's dry for the same reason earlier; you don't want mold to grow.

MR. KELBERG: What happens to the clothing after it's been wrapped, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The evidence custodian, after the clothing is wrapped, from the drying rack takes it to the evidence room, which is a separate area in the office.

MR. KELBERG: And I think we have some photographs of that; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Yes.

MR. KELBERG: We'll get to that in a moment. But what is to happen to the clothing when it gets to that evidence room?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It's placed in a larger bag and then--and stored in the evidence room. All this information of the chronology of events is recorded in the evidence log sheet.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, if you look in this photograph that's up on the screen, 320, there appears to be some kind of sign to the right of the entryway. Do you see that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And if Mr. Fairtlough could move to photo 27. Is this a close-up of that sign?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And how does one gain entry to this clothing drying area?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It's a secure room. It's locked and you have to call the evidence--I mean, the technician who--autopsy technician who placed the clothing there can access it, but usually we call the evidence custodian who will retrieve the clothing from this room for examination. This is if the doctor wants to go back and examine the clothing.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is the medical examiner expected to examine the clothing--not just look at the clothing, but examine the clothing of a decedent such as Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And a decedent such as Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is the medical examiner expected to be looking for in examining the clothing of these people?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: One, you describe what clothing was present on the decedent, whether a shirt, pant, the nature of the clothing. Then also, you have to look at the size, the label, manufacturer, give a description of the color, give a description of the material and then--then look at the clothing in detail for distribution of staining if you can make that determination, then look for defects. Basically you--you--you look at the clothing before autopsy, and then following autopsy, you may have a better understanding of all the injuries which you observed on the decedent so you can go back to the clothing to correlate and see whether there are any defects corresponding to every injury of the body or there are additional defects or there are no defects, depending on what the situation may be.

MR. KELBERG: "Defects" sounds like a term of art. What does it mean in lay language?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Hole in the clothing which is not from fraying or normal process. It's a hole made by an object or a--like if it's a gunshot wound, a defect in the clothing caused by the gunshot wound. If it's from a knife, a hole caused by the knife.

MR. KELBERG: Have you examined in the fashion that you've indicated you would expect a medical examiner to examine the clothing examined the clothing of Nicole Brown Simpson as you saw that same clothing on the 13th of June?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I examined them twice, once briefly with Dr. Badin on the 22nd, and then I did a detailed examination of the clothing with my criminalist I think in March of this year. I forget the exact date.

MR. KELBERG: The criminalist was Mr. Dowell, Steve Dowell?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Yes. And I've generated a report which is in the file.

MR. KELBERG: And did the same two examinations apply to the clothing of Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. One examination, June 22nd with Dr. Badin, the second examination with my criminalist on March of this year.

MR. KELBERG: In your examination of the clothing of Mr. Goldman, did you examine a shirt that he appeared to have been wearing when you saw the bodies on the 13th of June?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Had you already reviewed any reports of Dr. Golden regarding any examination he made of that same shirt?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: Did you find that there was a difference in the number of defects, as you use the term, that you identified in Mr. Goldman's shirt from what Dr. Golden described in any report that he observed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: What is the difference?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: He described three defects in Mr. Goldman's shirt. When I examined it with our criminalist and Dr. Golden again--I forgot to mention that Dr. Golden was during--present during the exam in March--we found three additional unlabeled defects, because when we examined the clothing in March, rather when I examined it in detail, the clothing already had been examined by several persons, criminalists who had removed evidence from the clothing. So when I examined the clothing in March in detail, there were three additional unlabeled defects. "Unlabeled" means which would signify that there are defects which were from the injuries.

MR. KELBERG: In your March examination, you say you saw other areas that appeared to have been cut out from the same shirt?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Shirt, yes.

MR. KELBERG: But did those areas all have some kind of initialing alongside the area where the hole now appeared?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: So when you're talking about these three additional defects, you're talking about three additional tears if you will?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: That do not have any initialing next to them; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: When you and Dr. Badin examined the shirt I think you said on June 22nd, did you examine it in the same fashion with the same detail that you examined it in March of this year?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, I did not because there was--the clothing had not yet been released for scientific analysis and we had to be careful. It was just a brief examination because, as you know, there were material on the clothing which had to be analyzed. So we just did a brief examination and I did it out of courtesy to the Defense pathologist so they could have a view of the clothing. So we instructed them not to do a more detailed exam at that point till the evidence was examined.

MR. KELBERG: And when you say "Evidence was examined," the evidence was turned over to the Los Angeles Police Department, the clothing that is?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, do you consider Dr. Golden's failure to describe the three additional defects that you saw--you saw a total of six defects in the shirt?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And Dr. Golden described three; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Did you see of your six, three that appeared to correspond to the description provided by Dr. Golden as to the three he saw?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Do you consider his failure to identify in the report the three additional defects that you saw a mistake?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Do you consider that mistake to have any significance on any of the issues that you have reviewed for testimony in this case?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Why not?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because there are defects in the clothing and the clothing was--is available, and it didn't play a role in the cause and manner of death or the injuries of the body which have been documented. The--the clothing in this situation would be useful to--to try and analyze whether there's any injury on the clothing which is not present on the body, in which case it would reflect that there was some kind of injury to the person which--the instrument which caused that defect in the clothing did not really cause injury to the body. That would be one reason you examine the clothing; to see for defects which don't exist on the body surface when you put the clothing on the body.

MR. KELBERG: Can you give us an example to make it somewhat clearer perhaps?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Let's say there's a gunshot wound to the arm. I'm just giving an analogy. When you examine the shirt with the long sleeve, you find one gunshot wound to the arm which has entered and exited the arm, and you have two defects in the clothing corresponding to that. But when you examine the sleeve of the shirt, you find two other gunshot wound defects that would signify--which are not in the same area, which would signify there are additional wounds to the body which did not strike the decedent. In that kind of example, it would indicate there were more shots fired which did not strike the decedent because when you do the body, you only see the injuries which caused injury to the body. I hope I've conveyed what I wanted to say.

MR. KELBERG: I'm not sure. Doctor, with respect to tears in clothing, in your experience in cases of this type, is it common to see that the clothing during the course of the assault which leads to the death may become disarrayed from the way it is normally worn?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the--that is quite common occurrence.

MR. KELBERG: And is that something that you also are looking for with respect to the defects in the clothing and trying to correlate it with any particular injuries?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is other reason.

MR. KELBERG: And how does that happen? How do you do that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You must have injuries on the clothing which are of similar size to the wounds on the body and they must be in a location of the clothing within the same region where the injury's on the body. For example, in Mr. Ron Goldman's autopsy report, which shows some injuries to the right chest and right flank, there are defects in the clothing which may help in bringing up the example you--you--you just gave in your question.

MR. KELBERG: And right flank, just for our present purposes, is what area of the body, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The--

MR. KELBERG: Could you stand with the Court's permission? Could the witness stand?

THE COURT: Sure.

(The witness complies.)

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The right side--

MR. KELBERG: Keep your voice up, doctor, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This part of the body. Right flank, this part of the body (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: And for the record, your Honor, the witness is pointing to his right side, perhaps an inch and a half or two above the belt line.

THE COURT: Noted.

MR. KELBERG: You may retake the seat, doctor.

(The witness complies.)

DR. LAKSHMANAN: And there were also two defects in the back of the shirt when--the way we examined it when we--correction--when we examined it, and there's no defect in the back in Mr. Goldman's body as an injury.

MR. KELBERG: What if any significance does that have to you?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: One explanation could be that there was some twisting and turning of Mr. Goldman during the altercation which would move the clothing on the body like--because he was--he didn't have any undershirt on. And this is a larger shirt, and the shirt would move on the body like a cylinder within a cylinder, the outer cylinder moving. And you could have--what I'm trying to say is, the clothing which shows the defect could have been in the area of the injury of the body during this twisting and turning of Mr. Goldman because the clothing is loose on his body surface.

MR. KELBERG: And then when one might put the clothing on as it would normally be worn, the defect will appear in an area other than where the defect is in the body itself?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct. That is correct. So there are two reasons which can be helpful to the clothing. One, you see additional defects which don't necessarily have an injury in the body and the second reason we just analyzed.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, Dr. Golden's mistake in failing to identify these three defects, in your opinion, does that have any significance in your ability to determine whether one knife could have caused all of what I'll call sharp force injuries received by Mr. Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Why not?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because I have the injuries on the bodies which I examined. I've examined all the photographs, injuries in the body through the photographs which I saw. I had one-as-to-one photographs which were available to me, and the injury pattern was quite distinct in some of the injuries which I saw. So the clothing doesn't really help you much with the injury pattern as looking at the injuries on the body.

MR. KELBERG: But in spite of all that, it's still a mistake for Dr. Golden not to have identified these three additional defects?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. That's one of the reasons I examined the clothing again in detail in March.

MR. KELBERG: And incidentally, Mr. Lynch and I were both present for that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. And Dr. Golden was present and we also had a criminalist there.

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough, if we could move to photo 56, please.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what are we looking at in--

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry. Could I have just a moment? Mr. Blasier--

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I've been told and thank Mr. Blasier that we did not mark that last photograph, which should be exhibit no. 321.

THE COURT: 321. Photograph of the sign depicted in 320.

(Peo's 321 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Thank you.

THE COURT: You're welcome.

MR. KELBERG: And Mr. Lynch--obviously it's been a long day already for me. Mr. Lynch has pointed out I really shouldn't have moved to this photograph yet. I have a couple more questions about clothing.

MR. KELBERG: We didn't talk about Mr. Goldman's pants. You examined his pants as well, didn't you, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: And you examined Dr. Golden's report, did you not, of any observations he made regarding defects in Mr. Goldman's pants, correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: The pants were blue jeans?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: When you examined the pants with Dr. Badin on June 22nd, how meticulous an examination did the two of you do?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We did the same brief examination for the same reason I alluded to earlier, because the evidence had not been collected from this piece of evidence and actually we--we were keeping that in mind, and Dr. Badin was also considerate enough to go along with our request. And there's a brief examination which showed the defect in the left pocket area of the jean. We didn't do a detailed exam at that point.

MR. KELBERG: Left pocket area, doctor, where?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: In the left thigh jean area.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry. The left thigh area?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Left thigh pocket area on this side (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: Okay. If you could point out--and you stood again--and, your Honor, where the witness is pointing, on the left side to the left of the midline of the leg down about six inches, doctor, from the belt line?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That would be an approximate location.

MR. KELBERG: What's your approximation how far down from the belt line?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: About six to eight inches. Somewhere here in this region (Indicating).

THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, when you examined the clothing, the jeans, in March of 1995, did you find any additional defects in the pants?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: How many?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There were two more unlabeled defects which were in the pocket underlying this defect in the trouser.

MR. KELBERG: And how were you able to see these two additional defects?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: When you--

MR. KELBERG: Or--with the tears again, we're going to use this lay terminology? "Tears," would that be accurate?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That would be a term which we could use.

MR. KELBERG: No. If it's not accurate, it's not a term we can use.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, I like to use the word "Defect" because "Tear" somehow has the connotation that it's a fraying of the clothing. So I like to use the word "Defect." And in this way, it could be later explained with a particular instrument or--in question.

MR. KELBERG: All right. Then describe the two additional defects that you saw.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The defect was in the inside--the pocket of--underlying the defect in the outer aspect of the jean. So you had the--and the defects in the pocket were in line with the defect on the jean on the outside. So it's--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Can I demonstrate, your Honor, or--

THE COURT: Yes.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically the pocket has two layers which were both traversed and underlying the defect on the outer surface of the pant (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: The pocket has two lawyers when you pull it out?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And the defect goes in essence through and through?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: So and that makes two defects?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And that aligned with the defect that you described initially in the thigh area?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Incidentally, doctor, these defects, all of the ones you saw, the six on the shirt, the three in the pants, in your opinion, what if any source or sources could cause those kinds of defects?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: A sharp instrument like a knife.

MR. KELBERG: And we're going to get into some discussion of types of knives, class characteristics and so forth, but is there something called a single-edged knife that has significance to you as a term?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: In general, what is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically, the knife only has one cutting edge, the other edge as being blunt.

MR. KELBERG: Can such a knife have caused all of the defects that you identified in Mr. Goldman's shirt?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. That calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It could have, because in the clothing, it's very difficult to say blunt edge and sharp edge. You just have a defect. And all I can say is, it's capable of causing the defects in the clothing.

MR. KELBERG: Is it also capable of causing the three defects you saw in the pants of Mr. Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: In your opinion, doctor--first of all, how many did Dr. Golden identify?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: One.

MR. KELBERG: In your opinion, was it a mistake on Dr. Golden's part not to identify all three?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is there any consideration to be given to the need for that clothing to be examined such as by the Los Angeles Police Department for blood or whatever they're going to do with it, and as a result, Dr. Golden not pulling out the pant pocket for examination?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That would be a good reason for not having done it if he--if that's the reason he didn't do it.

MR. KELBERG: If that is the reason he didn't do it, would you still consider it a mistake on his part not to have done it?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: If he didn't do the process, it is not possible to see these defects. So if that is taken as a reason, then it won't be a significant mistake--a stronger mistake.

MR. KELBERG: Is it significant whatever his reason is to you in assessing whether a single, single-edged knife could have caused those three defects?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Why not?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because the clothing, as I told you, is very difficult to tell single edge and double edge especially in a jean because you have fraying of the fibers also when the defect is created. It's very difficult to analyze that.

MR. KELBERG: Anything further on the examination of the clothing of Mr. Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, did you examine Nicole Brown Simpson's clothing for defects?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: Did you see any defects?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There were no defects which I could attribute to instruments as I just did with Mr. Goldman.

MR. KELBERG: Were there defects in the sense of what you described with Mr. Goldman's shirt as far as cuttings that had been taken with initialing?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: But for every such defect, was there initialing by the defect?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I recall initials on the defects I saw.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, did you examine the panties that you observed on June 13th, 1994?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I examined the panties twice. Again, Miss Nicole's clothing, also I examined twice, once with Dr. Badin on June 22nd of `94, and the second time, this March. And during the time of the examination with Dr. Badin, we use an ultraviolet light in our office--actually in most of the examination--to--to look for staining through some patterns on the clothing we examined.

MR. KELBERG: What were you looking for in the way of staining?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We were looking for any seminal stainings which we could see in the panty area.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, had you examined that clothing, including the panties, on June 13th of 1994?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I didn't examine the panties in detail like I did on June 22nd and March. But I did see the clothing as it was on Miss Nicole when the body was brought into our office.

MR. KELBERG: And when we get into some of the photographs, I'm going to ask you some questions about the clothing and what if any significance what you saw may have had in any determinations made on June 13th.

MR. KELBERG: But we'll move on to photo 56, Mr. Fairtlough. And, your Honor, ask that this be marked as 322.

THE COURT: All right. People's 322.

(Peo's 322 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, what are we looking at in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the main autopsy room of the Coroner's office. We have six autopsy stations, but you can see--I think you can see all of them.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, you're going to have to keep your voice up or move the mike around.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I'm sorry. There are six autopsy stations here.

MR. KELBERG: And basically, if we count tables, one table constitutes one autopsy station; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What are those things hanging down?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Those are the weighing scales where the doctors place the organs for taking the weight of the organs.

MR. KELBERG: And is there a pan or something that is a little more difficult to see? Mr. Fairtlough sees it obviously.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. There's a stainless steel pan which is attached to the weighing scale.

MR. KELBERG: And what is the process that the autopsy surgeon uses in weighing an organ, let's say the lung, one of the lungs?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The lung is dissected after examination in-situ--in-situ means in the body and the organ is weighed separately. Each one of them is weighed separately.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, is this the room in which the autopsies of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman were performed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And do you see the station at which Dr. Golden performed those two autopsies?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The station would be the closest one to the right.

MR. KELBERG: Where we're seeing the area that Mr. Fairtlough has the arrow now?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yeah. That would be the area, yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, at my request, was this photograph taken at a time when there were no bodies being autopsied?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: And in fact, is that unusual; that at some point in the day, there are no bodies on any of these tables?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Usually in the afternoons after the autopsy is completed, there is intense cleaning process of the autopsy room which takes place, and you're seeing our autopsy room late in the afternoon after the autopsies had been completed, at least the main autopsy room.

MR. KELBERG: What are the medical examiners like Dr. Golden doing at this time or at least what are they expected to be doing at this time when they're not down there in fact doing the autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The medical examiners have numerous responsibilities. Autopsy's only one part of it. They have to review microscopic slides. They review medical charts which may be needed to make a good diagnosis. They may need to go to court. They may need to dictate their findings in the afternoon. They may have appointments with families. They may have depositions. It's a busy office. And each of our medical examiners, as I mentioned earlier, does 350 cases a year. And between the demands placed by the public, the criminal justice system and the workload which I make them do, they have their hands full. So they have enough to do and more than enough to do anyway.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, you indicated I think on Friday and you've just alluded to it again that they must dictate reports; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: I do not see in this photograph microphones hanging down from the ceiling as you see the scales over each of these tables. Do you have such things?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We don't have that in our office because of the noise factor. Because as I told you, at any given time, 10 to 15 autopsies are going on--14 autopsies are going on at the same time. The doctors take good notes during the autopsy, diagram the injuries, but dictate the findings soon after the autopsy.

MR. KELBERG: And is that this protocol that you identified on Friday?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. They--they dictate the findings, and that is the transcribed portion.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in your opinion, would it be better if feasible to have the medical examiner dictating away--let me use an example. Have you seen on television on Quincy or movie, Dirty Harry, where they'll sometimes have a scene of an autopsy being performed, one body in a room and the microphone hanging down? Have you seen such a thing?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Do you think that that would be a better system if feasible in your operation so that the medical examiner would dictate as the medical examiner is doing the autopsy rather than the process that you are describing and will describe in further detail?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That would be a good process to have. But as I told you, because of the number of cases we do and the noise factor of the saws and other things, it's not practical in our office. But sometimes if you start a case later in the afternoon, we do have hand-held dictating machines available if someone wants to dictate. But generally, the process in our office is, do the autopsy, take good notes, make good diagrammatic documentation and dictate the case at a later point the same day or within 24 hours.

MR. KELBERG: And in the regular course of the Coroner's business, you say this is your main autopsy room?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the main autopsy room. We have another room with five autopsy stations.

MR. KELBERG: Is this room normally operating with all six stations doing autopsies beginning early in the morning?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And normally, how late does it run in the ordinary kinds of cases before the area gets cleaned out for the purposes of cleaning up for the next day?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Generally whereabout about 2:30, 3:00 o'clock. Usually the cleaning crew starts coming at 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon. And if there is a case which is going on late in the afternoon, then that area will be cleaned up later.

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough, could we have no. 57, please? And, your Honor, I would ask that this be marked as 323.

THE COURT: All right. People's 323.

(Peo's 323 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what are we looking at in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the autopsy station, first autopsy station where the autopsies of the decedents were conducted. And I would like to point out also that we have a board available for making notations.

MR. KELBERG: If Mr. Fairtlough could get our arrow out. Are you talking about where he's got the arrow now?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And that board is what? I'm sorry?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You can make notations with the chalk as to the findings so that the doctor could transfer it back to the report if necessary at the conclusion of the autopsy, to take notes.

MR. KELBERG: Is that for that station only?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, it will be more convenient for that station. But doctors also use marking pens on the--on the metallic board like area behind the weighing scale. They could make markings there also which are easily removable after the autopsy. This is just to jot down the memory on a trajectory because you are in the middle of an autopsy, and you document trajectories, weights, and then you enter the data in the prescribed forms of the Coroner's office.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, when you said this is the station where the decedents were autopsied, are we talking specifically about Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And from that, is it accurate to say that they were not done simultaneously by Dr. Golden?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, they were not.

MR. KELBERG: They were done sequentially?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They were done one after the other.

MR. KELBERG: And who was autopsied first?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Nicole Brown Simpson was autopsied first.

MR. KELBERG: And is there a form that is completed by Dr. Golden to indicate when that autopsy began and when it ended?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. That is only the autopsy process. It doesn't take into time the dictation time which is done later.

MR. KELBERG: But basically the time that Dr. Golden spends with the body at this station no. 6?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And a similar form for Mr. Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I'm going to get into some forms and so forth. I don't know if this is a good time for the Court to break.

THE COURT: Yes. This would be a good point. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take our recess for the morning session. Please remember all of my admonitions to you; do not discuss this case amongst yourselves, don't form any opinions about the case, don't conduct any deliberations until the matter has been submitted to you, do not allow anybody to communicate with you with regard to the case. We'll stand in recess until 1:00 o'clock. And, doctor, you are ordered to return 1:00 o'clock. All right. We'll stand in recess.

(At 12:00 P.M., the noon recess was taken until 1:00 P.M. of the same day.)

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, JUNE 6, 1995 1:05 P.M.

Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Back on the record in the Simpson matter. Mr. Simpson is again present before the Court with counsel. The People are represented. The jury is not present. Counsel, anything we need to take up before we invite the jurors in?

MR. COCHRAN: Nothing.

MR. KELBERG: No, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Let's have the jury, please.

(Brief pause.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good afternoon.

THE COURT: I need for all of you to stay healthy. All right. Let the record reflect that we have been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Dr. Lakshmanan is again on the witness stand undergoing direct examination by Mr. Kelberg. And Mr. Kelberg, you may resume with your direct examination.

Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran, the witness on the stand at the time of the noon recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. I have another photograph I'm going to ask Mr. Fairtlough to put on because I want zoom capability. And I ask, your Honor, this be marked as photograph 324, People's exhibit 324.

THE COURT: All right. People's 324.

(Peo's 324 for id = photograph)

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. KELBERG

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, we were talking about the autopsy room, and I want you to look at this photograph, People's 324 and tell us what is shown in this particular photograph.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the autopsy instrument tray with the instruments set up in the manner which the doctor has available before he or she starts the autopsy.

MR. KELBERG: Who sets up this tray?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The autopsy technicians at the Coroner's office.

MR. KELBERG: And this is already in place at the time the medical examiner, like Dr. Golden, is going to begin the autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are these instruments sterilized?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. They are washed.

MR. KELBERG: Is there any reason why they are not sterilized?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, we have an autoclave, but it is not used that often, but it is just washed and cleaned.

MR. KELBERG: Is the fact that these people are dead of consequence as to why you do not need or do not at least use the autoclave to sterilize your instruments on a routine basis?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is one reason.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if we can get Mr. Fairtlough to work our arrow for us and kind of go top to bottom in the tray and ask you if you can just basically tell us what each of the instruments is. Perhaps we could start what looks to be some kind of knife with a white handle and start with that and work our way down.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is a large knife which is used to cut the larger organs in the body.

MR. KELBERG: What is it used for?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is a larger knife which is used to cut the larger organs in the body like the brain and the liver, the lung, et cetera.

MR. KELBERG: What do you mean by "Cut" those?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Initially the autopsy process involves examination of the organs inside or in the body to see the relationship and also the--any injuries. And then when the organ is removed from the body, you serial section the organ to look for preexisting disease process in the organ, and this instrument is used for that purpose when you make the serial sectioning of the organs.

MR. KELBERG: What do you mean by "Serial sectioning"?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Cutting them like you cut a bred loaf so that you can study the cross-section of the organ.

MR. KELBERG: Going from outside to inside?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And is there any custom or practice as to how many, I hate to use the term slices, of the organ the medical examiner takes in making that kind of examination with respect to these organs?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, there is a minimum--I mean, there is no specific number as long as the organ is adequately examined. Some areas may require more sectioning than others, but it is the medical examiner's decision on that.

MR. KELBERG: It is the medical examiner's decision?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Decision.

MR. KELBERG: If Mr. Fairtlough could move the arrow to the left and stop where he has, what are we looking at now, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is a piece of plastic bulbous syringe which is used to collect urine.

MR. KELBERG: Where is the urine collected from?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The urinary bladder.

MR. KELBERG: That collection is performed by the Deputy Medical Examiner like Dr. Golden?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, and sometimes by the autopsy technician who is assisting the doctor.

MR. KELBERG: Now, it appears, if Mr. Fairtlough could move the arrow toward the bulb end of that syringe, is that resting in something, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. That is a ladle.

MR. KELBERG: Like a soup ladle?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is it used for?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, that is used for several purposes; to remove blood accumulating to the chest cavities, used to remove any of the fluid accumulations and to also have a volume estimation of the fluids removed as they are being removed, and it is also washed and sometimes used to estimate the volume of the stomach contents.

MR. KELBERG: The volume of the stomach contents?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is the size of that ladle?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The ladles we have in our office is six-ounce ladles, six-ounce capacity.

MR. KELBERG: And in cases like Ronald Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson would you expect there to be free blood inside of each of these person's bodies as a result of the injuries received?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Especially in Mr. Goldman, he had evidence of bleeding into the abdominal cavity and chest cavity, so there was evidence of blood accumulation in the cavities of Mr. Goldman.

MR. KELBERG: Would you expect then this ladle to be used to measure the quantity of blood found in that area?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Approximately, yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, you mentioned it can also be used to estimate the volume of the stomach contents; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Assuming that this ladle is used to measure the volume of blood, and it is also going to be used to measure the stomach contents, would you expect it to be washed between the two procedures?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Why is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because you don't want cross-contamination of the blood material with the gastric contents.

MR. KELBERG: What do you do as a medical examiner with any blood that is ladled out of the inside of the body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: One--sometimes you--you need to collect the blood for toxicology, and when you open the heart, sometimes the blood is collected from the heart in the ladle and placed in the blood bottle. The situations where you are removing blood and blood clots from a cavity, you place it in a tray until you--so you can assess the volume and sometimes in a case of a firearm injury or a gunshot wound which has entered the chest cavity, the bullets can be in the blood clot--in the blood which is accumulated in the chest cavity, so it is important to save all the blood which is removed from the cavity, in addition to measuring the volume, but also to have it available to retrieve any projectiles which may have finally come to rest in the blood clot in the chest cavity.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are there, prepared for the use of the medical examiner, vials of various types to collect these kind of specimens?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And I think we have a photo that we are going to get to in a moment, but for our present purposes, with respect to the stomach contents that may be measured with this, what happens to those stomach contents?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They are placed--first of all, the doctor records the--the character, the gross examination, and also the amount, and it is placed in a container earmarked for collection of such contents and we have a plastic jar which is used for that purpose.

MR. KELBERG: We are going to talk about stomach contents a good deal later on. Is there anything else that this ladle is used for?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically for these two purposes; removing of fluids, collections, give an estimation of the approximate volume.

MR. KELBERG: If we could have Mr. Fairtlough move the arrow down, there appears to be perhaps the end of a knife where it is right now. Do you see that, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, it is a smaller knife and that is usually used for--removal of the neck organs and other dissections as the doctor may feel it is necessary during his dissection or her dissection.

MR. KELBERG: Incidentally, doctor, how frequently are these knives, such as the top one that you identified and the one you are looking at now, how frequently are they sharpened?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They are supposed to be sharpened everyday or as needed. Whenever the doctor gives an opinion that they are dull, then the technician will have it sharpened.

MR. KELBERG: But this would be a knife used to dissect in the neck area of a person like Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is used more to remove the neck organs after initial inspection.

MR. KELBERG: What are the--I'm sorry. What are the neck organs are you talking about?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Neck organs, in our office usually we remove the tongue, also inclusive with the larynx and hyoid and pharynx and esophagus together en bloc after having done the dissection of the chest cavity and the head.

MR. KELBERG: Is this knife used for any other purposes?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: As I told you, for dissection of any organ which the doctor feels more comfortable using the smaller knife.

MR. KELBERG: Now, if we could move the arrow to the right a bit where Mr. Fairtlough has it, what are we looking at now?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is a kind of a plier like instrument which can be used to strip the pleura.

MR. KELBERG: What is the pleura?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The pleura is the lining of the inner surface of the chest cavity, also like a lining which also covers the lung and the chest cavity and it forms a kind of potential space between the chest wall and the lung and there is fluid in the pleural cavity and this allows free movement of the lung during breathing.

MR. KELBERG: What other uses, if any, does this particular plier like instrument have?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Sometimes to open the rib cage after you make an incision and also to--when you remove projectiles from the spine, sometimes when you make cuts it is easier to open up the bone to get the bullet out.

MR. KELBERG: You indicated open up the rib age. How is that done?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We have a different pair of--it can be done in two process; either by a saw or by a shear. We have a shear which is used to open up the rib cage.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is either the saw or the shear shown in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: The saw that is used, does it have the appearance of a hacksaw?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Not exactly a hacksaw. It is more like an electrically power driven saw. We didn't take a picture of it, but it is similar to the saw used in orthopedics to remove a cast.

MR. KELBERG: And the shears that are used, are they similar in nature to pruning shears that one might have around the garden?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, these are not very sophisticated tools it appears; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, they are regular--similar to surgical instruments which are used, at least the scalpel and the scissors and forceps part of it.

MR. KELBERG: And in order to get to the internal organs, is the saw or the pruning shears required?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, because after you reflect the skin and subcutaneous soft tissues to open up the chest cavity, you need to open up the rib cage to do that, to enter the chest cavity.

MR. KELBERG: And was that done in both of the cases here?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor if we could move down to the next instrument, what are we looking at?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You have a forceps and then you have a ruler, which is being pointed to.

MR. KELBERG: The ruler--let's start with the forceps. What is the purpose of that instrument?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Usually to pick up structures before you dissect them and also during dissection you need the forceps so that you can be up open a vessel or open up a bronchial area in the lung, depending on what structure you are dissecting. Basically these are dissecting instruments.

MR. KELBERG: Those look like big tweezers. Would that be an analogy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You could use that analogy, but these are forceps actually.

MR. KELBERG: You prefer that term?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: All right. Now, the measuring device that is under there, is that different than what you were mentioning before, this blue card that appears in the photographs?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct. This is a scientific ruler which gives measurements both in inches and centimeters.

MR. KELBERG: And how is that used, if at all, by the medical examiner?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They could be used for a variety of purposes, from measuring the injuries of the body surface, to measuring valve circumferences when the heart is dissected.

MR. KELBERG: Valve circumferences?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Incidentally, you mentioned the ladle taking blood from the heart. Is there in cases such as Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, a typical location where blood is collected from?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Usually you open up the--the--either the inferior vena cavity radial junction and after removing the pericardial fluid you allow the blood to accumulate in the pericardial sac and you retrieve the blood which is placed in the bottle which is earmarked for collection of blood. And then the ladle can be used for the transfer, but we also provide the doctors with a plastic syringe which is to remove the blood and subject in the serology tube which is the EDTA tube.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, first of all, what is the pericardial sac?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The pericardial sac is the covering over the cavity. Just like the pleural cavity covers the lung, you have the pericardial sac covering the heart.

MR. KELBERG: Why do you choose that location to collect your blood supply?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because you have a sac-like structure there and once you--always the pericardial sac has some fluid. Once you take the fluid out, you have kind of a sac-like structure available for the blood to be collected from.

MR. KELBERG: What is the purpose of the--of collecting blood from that location?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, you get heart blood from the heart when do you this collection in this manner.

MR. KELBERG: And what, if any, purpose will that supply of blood serve?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We save blood for--usually for toxicological purposes and the blood we collect is placed in sodium fluoride.

MR. KELBERG: What is toxicological purposes?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Study for drugs and poisons.

MR. KELBERG: Do drugs include blood alcohol levels?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And this is collected by either the ladle or you say a syringe?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The syringe is used for the serology tube because the syringe is a 10 cc syringe.

MR. KELBERG: And I think we have a picture of that coming up.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Okay.

MR. KELBERG: Anything further, back on this measuring device, that you haven't covered?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, no. It is just a ruler used to measure any structure the doctor wants to measure.

MR. KELBERG: If we could move to the right, Mr. Fairtlough, this next instrument?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is a scissor.

MR. KELBERG: What is that used for, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Dissection.

MR. KELBERG: In what fashion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: As I told you, to open up vessels or dissect a particular bronchus, any tubular structure to open up.

MR. KELBERG: And for example--opening up the stomach, the esophagus, anything, wherever you need to open up a hollow tubular structure.

MR. KELBERG: Would substance or structures like the carotid artery be the kind of thing that could be opened up with that type of scissor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It could be used for that.

MR. KELBERG: Is that a blunt end or a sharpened type of scissor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That looks like a sharp-ended scissor. You would like to use the--you like to use the scissor which has a blunt and a sharp blade to it so that the blunt end could be used for the blunt part of the dissection and then the sharpened to make the final cuts.

MR. KELBERG: Why do you want "A blunt end"?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This way you do not cause false nicks in the intima vessel, which is the inner lining of the carotid artery.

MR. KELBERG: Anything else that that is used for?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically as I told you.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I can't tell, is there an instrument to the right, kind of underlying the handle of the scissors that we were looking at?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. That is a chisel which is used in the opening of the skull of the decedent.

MR. KELBERG: How is the chisel used to do that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The electric saw is used to open the--first of all, the scalp is reflected and the skull is opened with the help of an electric saw and the electric saw usually cuts through the whole thickness of the skull, but after the saw has been used you use the chisel to pry open the skull so that you can examine the dura and the cranial contents in a proper manner.

MR. KELBERG: When you say the "Cranial contents," the brain?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, and the coverings of the brain.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, when you say "Pry open," is there like a hammer or something that goes with that chisel?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. If the saw has been used properly, the chisel should be able to separate the sawed area so that you can easily open the skull like a cap then examine the cranial contents.

THE COURT: Mr. Kelberg, may I see you and Mr. Shapiro for a moment, please, without the reporter.

(A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court:)

THE COURT: Thank you, counsel.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if we could get the arrow back and move to the last three instruments I think that are there. There are two instruments that appear similar in nature where Mr. Fairtlough has the arrow. What are those?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Scalpel blades.

MR. KELBERG: And what is their purpose?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Their purpose is to help in opening up the body and any other dissection and sectioning of tissues necessary for storage.

MR. KELBERG: And the last instrument--I think it is the last instrument in this photograph, is it, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is a larger scissor which is constructed in a manner which has a--which can be used to open the intestines.

MR. KELBERG: Why is that done, to open the intestines?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: To study the intestinal contents.

MR. KELBERG: What significance does that have on a routine basis?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You have to examine the intestine, not only to see the contents but also to see the lining of the intestine to see if there is any disease process, like you can have cancer, you can have diverticulitis, because the colon and intestines have normal disease processes which can only be found if you open the intestine.

MR. KELBERG: Now, Mr. Fairtlough if I can exchange photographs with you, I think we need this one to focus this as well.

THE COURT: This will be People's 325.

MR. KELBERG: 325 I believe, your Honor.

(Peo's 325 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Perhaps if you can pull it back a little bit.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what are we looking at in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: These are the containers set up before an autopsy for a full toxicology and tissue saving during the autopsy. You have two glass bottles on the left side which are used to collect urine and bile, if available. Then you have two other plastic containers. One is used for collecting of stomach contents; another one is used for collecting liver specimen, if necessary. The next jar is a plastic jar which has formalin in it and this is to remove representative sample of tissue and preserve it in formalin so that any microscopic studies, if performed, the tissue would be available, and this is the jar containing tissue which is saved after an autopsy.

MR. KELBERG: Would this be a jar that would be used, for example, to save representative sections of the brains of the decedent?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And each of the items that you've identified so far in the photograph appear to have a band around the item. Do you see that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Those are the labels used in the Coroner's office, and depending on what item is collected, you mark the box. If it is urine, you mark the urine box. If it is bile, you mark the bile box, et cetera.

MR. KELBERG: If Mr. Fairtlough could switch for a moment to photo 53, and I would ask, your Honor, it be marked as 326.

(Peo's 326 for id = photograph)

THE COURT: All right. Next photo, 326.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are you familiar with what is shown in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. This is the label which is the white structure you saw pasted on order those bottles and plastic containers, and depending on what the specimen is, if the arrow can go down, you mark the box. Suppose you had had the same label on the plastic container which you collect the gastric contents, you would naturally mark the box for the stomach. Now, on the lower part you have histopathology and that part is completed if you have the same label on the jar which has the formalin in it, so--and there we have three boxes there, which are self-explanatory.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, whose responsibility is it to check the box that corresponds to what is going to be in the container?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The doctor and the technician. The doctor has to also initial the containers after they remove the specimen.

MR. KELBERG: Now, you say the responsibility is on both individual, the doctor and the technician?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: If it is ultimately the medical doctor's responsibility to mark the box or make sure it is marked.

MR. KELBERG: Now, in this particular case, involving both Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, did you find, after your meeting or in the course of your meeting with Dr. Baden, that there had been a mistake made in labeling?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What was the mistake you identified?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This was the bile container that was--was marked as urine.

MR. KELBERG: What--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I would have to refer to my notes to remember which decedent it was, that mistake.

MR. KELBERG: Could you do that, and while you are doing that, if Mr. Fairtlough could go back to the photograph that has the jars, which is our exhibit 325.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: (Witness complies.) the specimen was that of Mr. Ron Goldman where the bile specimen was saved, but the bottle label was marked as urine.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, as a forensic pathologist can you easily distinguish bile from urine?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Certainly.

MR. KELBERG: How?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: One is a light amber yellowish color. The bile is thick greenish black in color and anybody can tell the difference between bile and urine.

MR. KELBERG: Anybody who is a forensic pathologist?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: All right. Doctor, there is a mistake that was made; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And in your opinion is this mistake ultimately the responsibility of Dr. Golden?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: In your opinion does this mistake affect in any way your ability to answer the issues that you have reviewed for your testimony here today?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Were there any other mistakes in labeling that were found in the course of either your meeting on June 22nd with Dr. Baden or any other review?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We already discussed the mistake of the non-marking of the fingernail kit envelope in which the scrapings were not marked outside as though they had been taken, even though they had been taken, and that is one mistake, I remember, and this one.

MR. KELBERG: Which of these jars or cups was it in type, that is, which had the bile mistakenly labeled as urine?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is Mr.--the glass bottles, the jar which is used for collection of urine and bile. That would be--go to the left.

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The left. That jar, that would be the jar which would be marked incorrectly.

MR. KELBERG: Was urine found to have been collected as well in this case?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Only bile was collected.

MR. KELBERG: Is it customary in cases such as this to collect urine?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: If it is available and if the doctor thinks it is indicated. The collection of toxicology on cases is up to the physician, because we only collect toxicology if we need it for the cause and manner of death.

MR. KELBERG: And in your opinion, from the review of all of the materials you have reviewed which we will identify later, was urine necessary for the answers to those questions?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, if we could have Mr. Fairtlough move the arrow down to that and maybe move the photograph, actually, so we will center it on the item at the far right. And that is item--and maybe we can get the arrow going the other way. Maybe we can just move it to the--their we go. Doctor, what is this series of materials?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You have a blood bottle and that is the bottle which contains sodium fluoride and--

MR. KELBERG: Incidentally, why do you have sodium fluoride in the bottle?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is a preservative which is used when we collect blood and in it is certain enzymes which prevent conversion of some drugs which may be present. For example, there is the enzyme cholinesterase, C-H-O-L-I-N-E-S-T-E-R-A-S-E, which is present in the blood which can metabolize some of the drugs sometimes and the sodium fluoride also inhibits that and is also used as a preservative.

MR. KELBERG: Why don't you want these enzymes to be able to metabolize the drugs?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because you have postmortem conversion of common drug which I can give you an example is cocaine which can be converted to benzoylecgonine.

MR. KELBERG: Benzoylecgonine?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, and this sodium fluoride will inhibit this enzyme.

MR. KELBERG: And is the preservative aspect of the sodium fluoride, what is that intended to do then?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically inhibits the enzyme and prevents such conversions.

MR. KELBERG: And is this the blood that can be tested for alcohol, for example?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And in fact in the case of both Mr. Goldman and Ms. Brown Simpson were their blood samples tested for blood alcohol levels?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, and also drugs.

MR. KELBERG: Now, what are the other two devices or materials that are rubberbanded around this big vial?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the serology tube and that contains EDTA which is--

MR. KELBERG: What is EDTA?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Ethyline Diamine Tetra Acetate Acid. It is a calcium chelating agent. It basically prevents clotting of blood in the tube.

MR. KELBERG: Why do you want to prevent that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because it is used for serological analysis and for serological analysis you need unclotted blood.

MR. KELBERG: Serological analysis, I believe there has been a lot testimony during the last few weeks on serology and so forth, but basically, for the record, is this basically to test their blood types, for example?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: This is a tube commercially provided to the Coroner's office which is also prepared with the EDTA in the tube?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What about the label that is around it? Is that already provided in the commercially-provided vial?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. That label is supplied from our office, and the next structure next to it is the syringe I was talking to you about, a plastic syringe.

MR. KELBERG: This syringe then is to take blood from the pericardial sac as you identified earlier?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And place it in where?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Into this test-tube.

MR. KELBERG: And then what happens with the test-tube?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Then the stopper is placed, the label is properly completed.

MR. KELBERG: By whom?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: By the doctor, and the name is already previously imprinted. The doctor checks the correctness of the number and the name and also initials the tube.

MR. KELBERG: When you say "The number," are we talking about this individualized number that the Coroner's office assigns on each case?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough, if we could move to photo 70, please.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: And I think--is there any possibility, Mr. Fairtlough, of perhaps turning this to the right ninety degrees?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: Before we do that, doctor, what is this--I would ask, your Honor, this be marked as 327.

(Peo's 327 for id = photograph)

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the label that goes on the test-tube which we just discussed and it has got the date, the DME's name and the name of the decedent there, I think.

MR. KELBERG: Let me pull out the photograph just so we can perhaps have it a little clearer. Your Honor, I don't know if the Court wants this marked as a separate sub exhibit or will be satisfied with the first photo printout?

THE COURT: The first photo will be fine.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically the space on the--the empty space is used for the imprinting of the card with the name and number and the date, the DME's name and whether the blood was taken from the heart or cavity. Sometimes if a person has had injuries which have caused a lot of bleeding, you may not have any blood in the heart available, as it happened in Mr. Ron Goldman. Dr. Golden submitted the right pleural blood for toxicology.

MR. KELBERG: When you say--I'm sorry?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: So in that situation the other will be completed as right pleural blood.

MR. KELBERG: In Mr. Goldman's case, from your review of the materials, there was not sufficient blood available in the pericardial sac?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Not in the pericardial sac, the heart.

MR. KELBERG: In your opinion why was that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because he had a lot of injuries which caused significant bleeding and so the blood from the chest cavity was submitted.

MR. KELBERG: And is that a standard procedure in cases such as this?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, because as long as the chest cavity is separated from the abdominal cavity, and the--there is no evidence of injury to the gastrointestinal track communicating with the blood collected, we have used it. And in this case this was collected but the key thing is to mark the origin from where you collected the blood and that is why we have the other box that says the word "Other" there.

MR. KELBERG: And then to write in where that other location was?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, Mr. Fairtlough. And if we could have photo 58, please. And your Honor, I would ask this be marked as exhibit 328.

THE COURT: 328.

(Peo's 328 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what are we looking at in this photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the--a room which is an extension from the evidence room where the evidence custodian stores the evidence in the Coroner's office. What you are seeing is different shelves containing bags of clothing from different decedents, each separately labeled and packaged. Of course the clothing in all these decedents have been previously dried in the process I already explained and they are stored there until they have been retrieved by a law enforcement agency.

MR. KELBERG: And do all of them appear to have the same kind of packaging or do some have like a clear plastic to the outside and others appear to have a brown wrapping?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They have a browning wrapping, but some of them also have another meshed sheet around them.

MR. KELBERG: What is the purpose of that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The--the reason is to separate out the--the brown paper covered clothing from each other in bag manner because sometimes there is soaking of the paper also sometimes.

MR. KELBERG: Why doesn't each of those packages have that netting around the outside then?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Only some of them have.

MR. KELBERG: Why don't they all?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Some of them are older specimens, I think. Some of them are the newer ones.

MR. KELBERG: In other words, you remove the netting at some point in time?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, and then you open up the brown paper cover and look at the clothing, you have to look at the evidence, like we did with Dr. Baden and Dr. Wolf.

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough, could we have photo 81, please, and your Honor, I ask that this be marked as 329.

THE COURT: 329.

(Peo's 329 for id = photograph)

MR. KELBERG: What are we looking at here, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: These are the freezers and refrigerators where we store our serological samples and blood swatches.

MR. KELBERG: The serological samples, that is like that EDTA tube?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And where is that stored? Freezer, refrigerated, where?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The EDTA tube is stored in the refrigerator. The blood swatch is stored in the freezer.

MR. KELBERG: And the blood swatch is prepared from what?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The EDTA tube of blood.

MR. KELBERG: And in this particular case were blood swatches prepared from blood collected from each of the decedents?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And then they are stored in the freezer; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct.

MR. KELBERG: And is the first--if Mr. Fairtlough moves the arrow to the right, is this first item a freezer, top to bottom?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And then what are these additional things as we go down the line?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They are refrigerators also present where we store the EDTA specimens, serological tubes.

MR. KELBERG: What happens then if somebody--well, let me withdraw the question if I might, your Honor. Assuming toxicology is going to be done, for example, for alcohol or drugs, what is the process? Does that blood sample go to toxicology first and then come back down or does toxicology get the sample from the refrigerator? How does it work?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This area is not for storing toxicological specimens. The toxicology is stored in a different area. We have a section on the second floor of our office and also in the service level we have a separate refrigerated area for toxicological specimens which is the bile, the stomach contents and blood bottles. This area is mainly for the swatches and EDTA tubes.

MR. KELBERG: And doctor, assuming that law enforcement wants to obtain those samples that are being either refrigerated or frozen, would this be the area from which they would be obtained?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. The evidence custodian who releases the evidence would release those serological samples.

MR. KELBERG: Let me go back on toxicology. Wherever the blood sample ends up in this other location or locations you mentioned, what is the procedure? Is toxicology done first? That is, after the blood is collected in the appropriate bottle with the sodium fluoride preservative, does it go immediately for toxicology testing or does it go someplace else?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The tox--the blood sample goes to the toxicology lab, as I said, in the areas which I already discussed. But whether a toxicology test is ordered--I mean, whether a toxicology test is performed is whether a toxicology test is ordered by the doctor. The doctor has to order the test.

MR. KELBERG: There are forms that are filled out by the doctor, like Dr. Golden, who indicate if in fact he or she wishes a toxicology test?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And if so, what kind of toxicology test?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough, I think we are done with the photographs. And your Honor, I have now some other paper exhibits, and perhaps these can be marked starting at exhibit 330-A and just go down the letters. I have what appears to be a form 12 autopsy report as 330-A; a similar form 12, but without the heading at the top, as b; a form 15, which appears to have multiple pages of different colors, white, pink, yellow, as c; a form 16 autopsy check sheet as d; a form 34, which appears to show skull outlines, as e; a form 20 that appears to show the front and back of the outline of a human being as I guess we are up to f; a form 20-F that has what appears to be some skull and face outlines as g; a form 20-G we are one letter behind on the scheme, but a 20-G, which appears to show the outline of part of the neck and head and skull, as h; a form 29, which appears to show areas of the brain; a form 24, which appears to show areas of the neck internally, as J. I think I left out I for 29. A form 23 showing outlines of the hand, left and right, as j--

MR. LYNCH: That is K.

MR. KELBERG: K. Mr. Lynch has got to write faster or I've got to talk slower. A form 22 showing again the head and neck area as l; a form 21 showing the side views of a human outline, left and right, as m; a form 28, which appears to show the external skull and the internal cavity of the skull as N, as in Nancy; and a form 27, which appears to show the skeletal outline front and back of a human being as O. May they be so marked accordingly?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

(Peo's 330-A thru 330-O for id = autopsy forms)

MR. KELBERG: And I believe Mr. Fairtlough has these items available for showing on the screen. Doctor, let me show you all of these exhibits, 330-A through O. In general terms are you familiar with what these documents are?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What are they?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The form 15 is the medical report and this is the form used by the doctor when he or she completes the autopsy to document the cause of death, and if the case has been deferred for further studies, there will be notations in the chart on this form as to why the case is being deferred for further study. This could include, toxicology, neuropathology, study of the brain in detail, or doing histological studies, that is, to study microscopic sections of the tissues. And this form also has a space for the specimens collected during autopsy.

MR. KELBERG: Let me stop you just quickly enough to ask Mr. Fairtlough, who has already pulled the page, to put it up on the screen. And this is a copy of exhibit 330-C. I think we want to go back to a and B, the form 12's, but let's start with this one. And if Mr. Fairtlough could zoom in a little bit starting at the top portion of the document.

MR. KELBERG: The form number is in the upper left-hand corner; is that correct, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. That is 15. This is the medical report form.

MR. KELBERG: And this area, if an arrow can be used to cover this, "Death was caused by," and we can see the words "Or as a consequence" of repeated three times, was is that block to contain?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: As I told you, the doctor that does the cause of death and the format used here is the same format which is used on the death certificate so that this information is used by the clerical personnel in the death certification unit in the Coroner's office to type up the death certificate, so this is where the doctor enters the cause of death. Now, about--if the doctor is not able to determine the cause of death, he would mark--or she would mark the box called "Pending" which is on the left upper corner and then the reason why the cause of death was deferred will be marked off, either toxicology or the doctor needs more medical history or the doctor needs a follow-up investigation from the law enforcement. So depending on what the reason is, that particular box will be completed. The--it is important on the top you have the class of autopsy, A, B and C, which I alluded to earlier. The a and B are the complete autopsies and c is the partial exam, any performed by the doctor, so this will give you an idea if an examination is performed or an autopsy was performed, and if the latter was done, whether it is a complete autopsy or a partial, and then let's move down.

MR. KELBERG: Before we do, doctor, is the most complete autopsy that is done the class a?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. That is the comprehensive autopsy which includes photography, toxicology and all the homicide cases are treated like "A" cases in which they get all the work-up which the doctor feels necessary.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, both of the cases, Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, were handled as class a autopsies?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, yes.

MR. KELBERG: All right. And is this form filled out either during the course of the autopsy or immediately afterwards?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Portions could be filled during, because you can mark off the "Toxicology" section, what you collected at that time, but the cause of death and the rest of the form will be completed at the end of the autopsy, because as you move down the form, can you--can you move the form, please? You have the "Mode of death" there.

MR. KELBERG: Okay. We are going to come back to that. Where do you want to go?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Go back a little bit higher, a bit--bit furthermore up the form so you can go to the lower part of the form.

MR. KELBERG: You want to go to the bottom of the page?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, yes. You can see some areas called organ procurement, witnesses to the autopsy, pertinent comments, evidence recovered, so if any process takes place during the autopsy which needs to be documented, can be documented during the autopsy. That space is available below the statements.

MR. KELBERG: Incidentally, there is a box for "Witnesses to autopsy." In homicide cases is it usual that there will be at least one witness who is not a member of the Coroner's office witnessing the autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. We allow the law enforcement investigating officer to attend the autopsy, because this has been the practice in the Coroner's office for many years.

MR. KELBERG: Is it customary during the coarse of the autopsy for the medical examiner to talk with the officer, or if there is more than one officer, officers, to get additional information that may be pertinent to the evaluation being performed by the medical examiner?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, if we could go back to that area "Natural accidents, suicide, homicide and undetermined," I think on Friday you defined the concept of "Manner of death"; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: That is what these five boxes refer to?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And if we could now, Mr. Fairtlough, go to the right side of the document about midway and below. Your right. And if we could get more of the right side of the document in and perhaps raise the document so we will see the bottom portion. No. Raise it up to show the bottom, please. And stop about there, please.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, let's start with this entry area for "Toxicological specimens collected" and there are a whole bunch of boxes and so forth. No. 1, what is the purpose behind that area of the form?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That reflects what specimens were collected, and if no specimens were collected, you mark off the boxes giving the information. For example, if somebody had been hospitalized and they were more than 24 hours in the hospital, then we will mark the box over "24 hours in the hospital" and "No blood being collected." And then below that is what kind of screen one would like to request on a particular case. You have a c screen, an h screen, a d screen and an s screen.

MR. KELBERG: What do they reflect, the different types of screens.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They reflect different types of drugs analyzed. The c screen is a comprehensive complete toxicology, the h screen is what we order in homicide cases. That would include alcohol, the drugs like PCP, cocaine, narcotics, amphetamines. T screen is a traffic screen. Basically you order alcohol, barbiturates and amphetamines and the s screen is similarly a toxicology screen which we do in SIDS death which we do in testing for drugs which I just mentioned and other prescription drugs.

MR. KELBERG: The h screen that you mentioned in all homicide cases, was an h screen done, toxicological h screen done for both blood samples of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, it was, and actually after the laboratory ordered, I extended it to a c screen just to complete the screen.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if we could move up again, under "Toxicological specimens collected" there are a lot of boxes that seem to be similar to that label we saw in one of the earlier photographs that you indicated should be checked off and one of them was erroneously checked off as urine which in fact was bile. Do you see that area?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Who is to fill out this and what is this to reflect?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is a form to be filled out by the doctor. This is a medical report. The doctor fills out this form.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, did you find--before we do that, if you could pull out the actual form 15, the hard document that I gave you, and hold it up for us, if you would, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: (Witness complies.)

MR. KELBERG: Is it a single page or is it multiple pages, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is a multiple-page document that is a white copy, gold copy, a pink copy and a darker yellow copy here.

MR. KELBERG: When the medical examiner has this form at time of autopsy, is it in the condition that you are holding it, that is, with all of the copies?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And why do you have all these different copies?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because after the medical examiner completes it, when--before it goes to the certification desk, they separate out a form which is the yellow copy. If you look in the bottom--if you go to the bottom, if you go to the bottom below the toxicology, a little more down, a little more down, you can see where each copy goes. The white goes to the file, the canary copy--I'm sorry I used color yellow--it is a canary copy which goes to the lab, pink goes to investigations and the goldenrod is the doctor's copy because we train a lot of doctors and the residents like to keep a copy and also our regular doctors keep a copy for themselves for their record, so that is the reason we have four copies.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, in discussing the bile/urine mistake, where is that material going? To any of the--don't move that please, Mr. Fairtlough. To any of those laboratories, forensic lab, investigation copy and so forth?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The bile/urine is in the bottle. The mistake was on the bottle; not on the form. But these are copies of this whole document which go to these areas.

MR. KELBERG: Does a copy of this document go with, for example, a jar that might have the stomach contents?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. There will be one copy which goes to the toxicology lab and the toxicology division will see whether the specimens which were marked off on the form are actually received in the lab. This is like a cross-check of the specimens received in comparison to the form because the doctor may order certain tests based on the specimens he or she submitted, but the toxicology lab will double-check whether they received the specimens.

MR. KELBERG: In your review of this case did you find that there was a mistake made with respect to the labeling of stomach contents retained from Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What was that mistake?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The white page--

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough, before you--if Mr. Fairtlough could get back to that area and back it up just so we can see the bigger picture of that area. Thank you.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The main white file copy, the stomach contents was not marked off.

MR. KELBERG: On the white copy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: All right. That is the front page in essence, correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: So if Dr. Golden were to mark stomach contents having been retained from Mr. Goldman, it should be a that white form and all of the underlying copies; is that accurate?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, did you find in your review that one or more of the copies did have a marking in the box for stomach contents for Mr. Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: How many copies had that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The toxicology copy had it, the yellow copy.

MR. KELBERG: And what does that indicate to you in this area of a cross-check?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: What happened was the lab had received the stomach contents of Mr. Goldman and that was reflected in the--by the way, there is another log sheet which is maintained in the autopsy room which documents the specimens submitted during autopsy, and that log sheet had documented that the stomach contents were submitted on Mr. Goldman. And when that log sheet and specimens were received in the toxicology lab, it was found that the yellow sheet, which they had, the second copy, the canary copy, did not have the stomach contents marked, so they marked that the stomach contents were received.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, do you consider this to be a mistake by Dr. Golden not to have marked on the white copy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Does that mistake have any significance to you in evaluating any of the issues you've evaluated for your testimony here today?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Why not?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is just an arrow in marking a box. It has nothing to do with the cause of death or manner of death. And the specimen was collected, so it is an error, but I don't think it is significant enough to affect the cause and manner of death.

MR. KELBERG: Or any of the other issues you have reviewed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if we could move to the form 12, which is page 123, Mr. Fairtlough, and I would ask, doctor, the first page form 12. Do you have that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough is going to get this up on the elmo.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is this the protocol document in a blank form, however?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. This is the form used where the transcribers use to type the reports up.

MR. KELBERG: And so this will actually not have handwritten information generally, it will all be in typed fashion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct.

MR. KELBERG: And the second form 12 which is page 124, Mr. Fairtlough--and your Honor, may that be--I'm sorry, we have already marked that, that was 330-A and this is 330-B. And if we could back up just to see the full document.

MR. KELBERG: Is this what each of the subsequent pages looks like before the transcriber puts the words on paper?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, if we could move, doctor, form 16, which is our exhibit 330-D, as in dog, and is page 126, Mr. Fairtlough. This autopsy check sheet, what is the purpose of this sheet, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The purpose of the sheet is for the doctor to enter the major findings as the autopsy process progresses, documenting the weights of the various organs, any abnormal pathology they may find, and there are different areas in the form giving information on the different organs, so the doctor just completes the information.

MR. KELBERG: I'm going as to ask, Mr. Fairtlough, if he can, to make it a little clearer. Getting up closer to see parts of it. If that is the best we are going to be able to do--

MR. KELBERG: This form is filled out in the course of the autopsy by the medical examiner?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, if Mr. Fairtlough could go to the bottom of the document; the real bottom. There we go. And also get it to include the left side.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what is to be completed in this area of the form 16?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The doctor completes the date the autopsy was done, the time he or she started it and completed it, and the doctor signs the report.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in the case of Nicole Brown Simpson did Dr. Golden indicate the time during which he performed her autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What time did he indicate?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I want to refresh my memory.

(Brief pause.)

DR. LAKSHMANAN: He started the autopsy at 8:30 in the morning on June 14th, 1994, and completed it at 10:30. This is the autopsy part of it; not the dictation.

MR. KELBERG: So that was two hours?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the time recorded, yes.

MR. KELBERG: And if you need to refresh your memory can you tell us the time, if any, indicated by Dr. Golden regarding how long he spent on the autopsy of Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I would like to refresh my memory. When it comes to times I want to be accurate.

(Brief pause.)

DR. LAKSHMANAN: On Mr. Goldman the autopsy started at 10:30 on June 14th, 1994, and the autopsy is reflected as having been completed at 1300 hours on June 14th, 1994.

MR. KELBERG: That would be one o'clock in the afternoon?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Or approximately two and one-half hours?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, given what you knew when you examined the bodies briefly on the 13th, given what you now know from your review of all of the materials, do you consider two and a half hours to have been an appropriate time to perform the autopsy of Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The multiplicity of injuries which I saw, if the time reflected is accurate, because sometimes the doctors may spend more time but after the--when they are doing the filling out of the paperwork--I would feel that it should have taken more time than two and a half hours.

MR. KELBERG: Approximately how long, in your opinion, should it have taken to completely and properly perform the autopsy of Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I would say about four to five hours, if you want to diagram every small injury.

MR. KELBERG: And is that what you would expect, to have every small injury diagrammed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is our goal in the Coroner's office, to document every injury accurately and truthfully so that it can be preserved because you only have one shot at doing a good job.

MR. KELBERG: Incidentally, doctor, is there a manual that you have responsibility for having written, called the "Deputy medical examiner procedure manual last revised, 1992, 12th edition"?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I have my copy in one of my boxes.

MR. KELBERG: Let me read something to you and ask if this is in fact what you have written in that manual?

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may I see counsel at the side bar?

(A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court:)

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, did you write this in your 12th edition of the "Deputy medical examiner and procedure manual" on page 40 under the heading "Homicides"? "In homicide cases justice may not be properly served unless meticulous attention to detail is observed. The smallest mark on the body may be of critical importance when all of the facts in the case become known. All marks of trauma are to be charted and described. External measurements shall be in inches since the police and courts are not yet met metricized and recreation of a crime scene is made difficult when converting back and forth from inches to centimeters"?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: When you wrote this did you believe what you wrote?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: Do you believe in it as you testify here today?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I do.

MR. KELBERG: Can your office meet your expectation?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer the question.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We try and meet the expectations in every case we do. We try very hard not to make mistakes. When we do make mistakes, we accept them, we review the report and correct them. We work as a team in our office. We have 166 employees who work very hard. We share Honor and blame where the mistakes do occur. We are not proud to make mistakes, we are sad when we make a mistake, but we are ready to accept it.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to move to strike that as nonresponsive to the question that was asked.

THE COURT: Overruled. Proceed. Let's move on.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in your--let's finish with these forms just so we see what they are. Mr. Fairtlough, if you can just in sequencing, pages 127, 128 and so forth. Doctor, just to back up so we can see these forms, there are numbers in the upper left-hand corner for each of these forms; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And so this would be a form 34; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Do the numbers occasionally change?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Originally these diagrams had letters attached to a number. They had 20-A, B, C, d and I am in the process of revising the form so we have a number for a form and that is how some forms have the letter next to the number and like 20-J or 20-H and have some numbers and we are in the process of doing that, so at the same time we don't want to throw away a form we already have, we want to finish them and then use the new form when the new forms are printed.

MR. KELBERG: All right. If Mr. Fairtlough can put the next one up, a form 20, again.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are all of these forms which are used by the medical examiner in the course of the autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, they are, depending on what they need to document.

MR. KELBERG: And Mr. Fairtlough, the next page, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And the next page, please.

THE COURT: All right. That was form 20-F.

MR. KELBERG: Right. This is form 20-G. And the next one, please.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, this is form 29; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What are we looking at on this form?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the diagram of the brain. The doctor can use this to document the injuries on the brain if they--when they observe the injuries on the brain during the autopsy.

MR. KELBERG: In the course of reviewing the materials in this case, was there a form 29 completed by Dr. Golden for the autopsy of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Was there any written entry on that form?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What was the written entry, and we will see the document in a few minutes, but what was the written entry?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Can I refresh my memory?

MR. KELBERG: Yes.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It says "No injuries," but I want to--just says "No injuries."

MR. KELBERG: And is that in his handwriting?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And incidentally, that scaly looking thing running horizontally at the bottom of the form, what does that depict?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The bottom portion, that is the spinal cord diagram.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, did you find, in your review of materials on June 22, 1994 with Dr. Baden, that there had been a mistake made by Dr. Golden with respect to that entry of "No injuries"?

MR. SHAPIRO: I'm going to object as leading and assumes a fact not in evidence; misstates the true facts.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.

MR. KELBERG: Sure.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, on June 22, 1994, did you examine any of the tissue preserved by Dr. Golden from the autopsy of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did. I did it in conjunction with Dr. Baden and Dr. Wolf, Defense pathologists who wanted to examine the tissues which we have in our possession.

MR. KELBERG: I'm not sure if Dr. Wolf has been introduced, but that is the young woman who is seated next--I hope she likes the term young woman--she is smiling so I must not be too offensive--seated next to Dr. Baden.

THE COURT: Noted.

MR. KELBERG: And the three of you examined the tissue; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Did the tissue you examined include brain tissue of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, it did.

MR. KELBERG: When you examined any of the brain tissue, did you see anything that was of significance to you?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What did you see?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We found a piece of the cerebral cortex which had a contusion injury.

MR. KELBERG: We are going to talk about what a contusion is later on, but given what you saw, did that cause you to form an opinion as to whether or not Dr. Golden's entry of no injury on his form 29 was a mistake?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, it was.

MR. KELBERG: And have you reevaluated, in the course of reviewing all the material, what significance, if any, that mistake has as to any of the issues about which you are to testify?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It was a mistake in not documenting the injury, but the injury itself did not cause the death. It was not a fatal injury.

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, nonresponsive.

MR. KELBERG: I think it probably is nonresponsive, I agree with Mr. Shapiro.

THE COURT: I will let the answer stand.

MR. KELBERG: Okay.

THE COURT: Proceed.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, my question is did you assess or consider, that is, the significance, if any, of this mistake of Dr. Golden's regarding this injury to the brain when you were evaluating the issues about which you are to testify here today?

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object. That is vague, the issues about which he is to testify?

THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, have you considered various materials for the purpose of coming to an independent conclusion on cause of death for Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: On cause of death for Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: On whether one knife could have caused all injuries that are sharp force injuries received by Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: On whether one knife could have caused all the sharp force injuries received by Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: On whether the same knife could have caused all of the sharp force injuries received by both Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: And in evaluating those issues have you taken into account every mistake that you have identified that you believe is attributed to Dr. Golden?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: And have you considered what, if any, significance each of those mistakes has with respect to these issues you have indicated you have considered?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: In your opinion did any of the mistakes, including this mistake, have any significance in your ability to determine the cause of death of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Did it have, any of these mistakes, including this one, have any significance to you in your ability to determine the cause of death of Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Did any of these mistakes, including this one in form 29, have any significance to you in your ability to determine whether one knife could have caused all of the sharp force injuries received by Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Did any of these mistakes, including the one on form 29, have any significance to you in your ability to determine whether one knife caused all of the sharp force injuries to Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Did any of these mistakes, including the one on form 29, have any significance to you in your ability to determine whether the same single knife could have caused all of the sharp force injuries to both Ronald Goldman and to Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: And we will get into your reasons as we get into the actual materials and photographs. Now, if we could go to the next form, please, Mr. Fairtlough, and this is a form 24.

MR. KELBERG: What is this form to be used for, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is a form showing diagrammatic representation of the internal neck organs which I alluded to earlier and the doctor uses this form to document any injuries they may see.

MR. KELBERG: And the next form, please, this is a form 23. What is this to be used for?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is a form to document injuries on the hands, both the palm and the back of the hands.

MR. KELBERG: Are you familiar with the term called "Defensive wound," doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What does that term mean to you as a forensic pathologist?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Defensive wounds is a term used for describing injuries on the extremities when they are used by a victim to ward off any inflicting assaultive injuries which is going to be inflicted on them.

MR. KELBERG: The "Extremity" mean what, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Both the lower extremity and the upper extremity but most of the extremity means the hands and the feet and the legs and the arms.

MR. KELBERG: And in cases involving stab wounds or the use of a knife to inflict injuries, is defensive wounds on--are defensive wounds kind of thing as a forensic pathologist you are looking for?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And a form like 23, is this where you would expect them to be tagged, at least with respect to the hands?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough, the next one.

MR. KELBERG: And what is this type of diagram, a22, to be used for?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This diagram is used to document injuries in the head and neck area.

MR. KELBERG: Okay. And would that include stab wounds?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It would introduce any type of injury one may see on a person.

MR. KELBERG: The next one, Mr. Fairtlough.

MR. KELBERG: Again, doctor, this is a form 21 to be used in the course of the autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. This is a side view of the body. We use this diagram because this gives us a better view of the flank area which is demonstrated earlier.

MR. KELBERG: And the next one, Mr. Fairtlough, form 28.

MR. KELBERG: What does this show, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This shows the skull cavity after the skull cap has been removed after we see in the top sheet.

MR. KELBERG: And the next one, a form 27?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is a diagram which shows the skeletal system with an outline of the body around it to document any fractures or injuries, penetrating injuries through the rib cage or bony cage. It is a good form to diagrammatically represent what you want to demonstrate.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in going back briefly to form 28, you have already identified from form 29 the brain form, this issue of no injuries. What you identified on June 22nd as this contusion to the cerebral cortex of Nicole Brown Simpson's brain tissue, would you expect that to be diagrammed on this form?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Not the brain contusion. The brain contusion is only diagrammed on the brain diagram.

MR. KELBERG: On this form is there any kind of sharp force injury to the skull, like a knife striking the scull? Would you expect that this would be the form where it would be diagrammed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: I think we are done with those forms.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: And may I just collect those from Dr. Lakshmanan?

THE COURT: You may.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I want to get into a discussion now of sharp force injuries so we have a little more detailed understanding of that. Let's start off with first just your definition of sharp force injuries.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: A sharp force injury is one which is caused by a sharp instrument. They would be stab wounds or incise wounds. And the sharp instrument could vary anywhere from a knife to a broken glass or an open scissor with each blade of the scissor acting like a knife. I just gave you a few examples.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have a board which I ask to be marked as exhibit 331, and I'm not certain where is the best place. Mr. Fairtlough is our expert on this.

THE COURT: I don't know. Would that location right there be appropriate?

MR. KELBERG: If it is good for the jury and Defense counsel.

THE COURT: I think we need to turn it so it is parallel and the doctor needs to be able to see it.

MR. KELBERG: I may have to step to the board. And also Mr. Fairtlough has the capability and I ask that he put up this particular exhibit 331, which is our page 140, Mr. Fairtlough.

(Peo's 331 for id = posterboard)

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, just in general terms, what are we looking at on this diagram?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: What this--you--

MR. KELBERG: You are going to have to keep your voice up, too, doctor. Can we swing this microphone?

THE COURT: I think he is just going to have to shout.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: What we are trying to show here is the correlation between the knife and wound damages. The example here is a single-edged knife. The reason is the description of the injuries on the body correlate with certain class characteristics of a weapon. The length of the blade usually corresponds to the depth of the stab wound in the body. The width of the blade corresponds to the length of the wound of the body surface. The thickness of the blade corresponds to the width of the wound on the body's surface. So I will show you another diagram which explains this further.

MR. KELBERG: All right. Doctor, this title for this particular exhibit is--includes "Single-edged knife" which was defined earlier. Is this in fact a depiction of a single-edged knife?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, because you can see that this edge is blunt. You can see the blunt edge here of the knife, (Indicating). That is, this edge will not be sharp in contrast to the other edge which will be the sharp cutting edge of this knife.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in your training as a forensic pathologist are you taught about class characteristics of knives?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Are you taught about how you look at class characteristics of knives for the purpose of seeking to identify from the wound to the body the kind of knife that may be responsible for the wounds?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. We look at the wounds, we look for simple penetrating wounds which will help us to give some estimate as to a class characteristic for knife. And "Class characteristic" means the length of the blade, the width and the thickness of the blade.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, do single-edged knives come in all different dimensions of thickness, width and length?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, they do.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have a series of knives.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may we approach? I believe there was to be a conference on this.

THE COURT: Yes, that is true.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry, I didn't hear.

THE COURT: Yes, with the court reporter, please.

(The following proceedings were held at the bench:)

THE COURT: Okay. We are over at the side bar. Mr. Shapiro.

MR. SHAPIRO: Yes. We are going to object to the display of any knives that are not directly related to any injuries or to any evidence in this case merely to describe classification of knives as being something that is within everybody's understanding without need of demonstration. And, too, that the prejudicial effect of showing brand new razor sharp knives to the jury outweighs any probative value, and clearly the Court--and clearly the Court can take judicial notice and even would stipulate to the Court that to--to the jury that there are single-edged knives, double-edged knives, serrated knives, bowie knives, hunting knives and any other type of knife you wish to enumerate. But just to simply point out shiny steel blades to me is prejudicial and we strenuously object.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, Mr. Shapiro strenuously objected several days ago and the Court overruled the objection and allowed us to use these knives to demonstrate the class characteristics in the knives and has indicated nothing new which in my judgment causes the Court to change its mind and that is all we are attempting to do. Not indicating whether they are dull or sharp isn't the issue because no one is suggesting that any of these were attributable to Mr. Simpson or anyone of these is the murder weapon. I also have to say for the record, your Honor, I don't like to object, although when counsel makes speaking objections, my understanding is the Court has made it quite clear that there are not to be speaking objections and Mr. Shapiro has made a series of speaking objections. His Clark passed me a note that she finds it difficult to have that allowed. Again, I'm more forgiving, and maybe that is because I'm not going to be down here arguing the case to the jury, but for the record, I think it is inappropriate for the manner in which Mr. Shapiro has made a number of these speaking objections and I do press that objection.

THE COURT: All right. So far I haven't found any of the speaking objections to be out of line, since they save us a trip here to the side bar oftentimes. But the objection made is overruled because I think that the demonstrative value is--does outweigh.

MR. COCHRAN: May I say something? Would the Court consider some kind of a cautionary thing of they are not going into the jury room, obviously, so shouldn't the Court--or shouldn't there be some questions, in fairness, bringing out early on these are not any weapons--

THE COURT: Just for demonstrative purposes.

MR. COCHRAN: These are just for whatever purpose they are being used that you are allowing it.

THE COURT: Yes. Mr. Cochran, if you recollect, I instructed the Prosecution that they had to make clear in their questioning that this was demonstrative purposes only, that there is no connection between this knife, these knives and--

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, when are you taking a break? I'm just trying to--

THE COURT: Quarter `til. Do you want a break now? I was planning--I thought I told you 2:45.

MR. KELBERG: Okay. I will try.

THE COURT: Unless the court reporter is about to die.

REPORTER OLSON: No, sir, I'm fine.

(The following proceedings were held in open court:)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Kelberg, you may proceed.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. I was about to mark some exhibits. I have a knife that has the inscription "Grand Chief Sabatier" not in the sinister sense, S-A-B-A-T-I-E-R. I would ask that this and its sheath be marked as exhibit 332.

THE COURT: All right. 332.

(Peo's 332 for id = knife)

MR. KELBERG: I have what appears to be a knife with a black handle and the words "Forschner," F-O-R-S-C-H-N-E-R, and a "No. 810-7" be marked as 333.

THE COURT: 333.

(Peo's 333 for id = knife)

MR. KELBERG: And I have what appears to be another knife, this with a brown wooden handle, Forschner and the no. 405-6 as 334.

THE COURT: So marked.

(Peo's 334 for id = knife)

MR. KELBERG: And finally, a knife that has a black handle and the words "Black Panther Solingen," S-O-L-I-N-G-E-N. May it and its sheath minus the price tag, I hope, your Honor--

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: --be marked as exhibit 335?

THE COURT: So marked

(Peo's 335 for id = knife)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, first of all, you have had a chance to look at these knives before; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And the purpose of these knives is to give the jury an understanding of the differences in class characteristics of knives; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: There is no representation made that any one of these knives is in any way connected to any of the injuries sustained by either Nicole Brown Simpson or Ronald Goldman; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm allowing the use of these knives solely for demonstrative purposes to display to you different types of knives. All right. Just for illustrative purposes.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor--and perhaps you can step to the board again.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: (Witness complies.)

MR. KELBERG: In this area of thickness of blade and looking at the knives--let me start with the first knife that was marked in this series. Can you demonstrate for the jury--and perhaps it would be better perhaps if you actually went to about the middle of the jury box. I'm not sure--okay. I'm not sure--Mr. Fairtlough, can you put this on?

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: Yes.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That will be easier.

THE COURT: All right. Referring to 332.

MR. KELBERG: Yes, your Honor.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Is that the one from the sheath?

MR. KELBERG: Yes.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: What you are seeing is the width of the blade here and one--the lower end is the sharp end, and if you turn the blade, you can see the lower end is the sharp end. And if you turn the blade the other side, you will see the dull end of the blade. You can see it is dull. And this is a example of a single-edged blade which was seen on the diagram.

MR. KELBERG: Now, if Mr. Fairtlough can hold that one and also hold what is exhibit 333, excuse me, so that we can see the width of the blades--thickness, I'm sorry, of these two blades to see if there is any difference.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: They are to be held parallel to each other. Parallel in showing the thickness, so you can see the thickness.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, is this again a single-edged knife?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Both of them appear to be single-edged knives.

MR. KELBERG: In your experience are there single-edged knives which have thicker blades?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, they do.

MR. KELBERG: Are there single-edged knives which have longer blades?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, they do.

MR. KELBERG: If Mr. Fairtlough can lay them on their side.

MR. KELBERG: Is there a difference in the width of these two knife blades?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The one on the top looks thicker than the one on the bottom, but I need to measure them to be exact, but the upper one, the stockier knife, appears to be having a thicker--thicker blade than the lower blade.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, assuming one took these two knives and inflicted a stab wound on a human being, how, if at all, would the difference in the width of the knife blade appear with respect to the stab wound that you would see on the surface?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yeah. The general dictum in knife wounds is a smaller knife can cause a larger wound because of the rocking motion which I will discuss a little bit later, but usually a larger knife cannot cause a smaller opening in the skin. For example, if you take the knife which is--which the arrow is pointing to right now, has a wider blade near the base, near the handle, contrast that to the lower knife where the knife blade is not as wide, it looks as though it is half as wide--I have not measured the knives--and so if you have a wound which has the depth of this knife, there is no evidence of any rocking motion and it is a straight penetration, you can see that the other knife at that depth will be having a longer wound on the body's surface because it is wider.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have another board--

THE COURT: Mr. Kelberg, I think we ought to have the record reflect that the upper knife in this record is 332; the lower knife being 333.

MR. KELBERG: All right. That's fine. Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. KELBERG: And I have another board which I would ask to be marked--

THE COURT: 336.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

(Peo's 336 for id = posterboard)

MR. KELBERG: And I need Mr. Lynch's assistance here.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: And Mr. Fairtlough, I think if you can put this and focus in on the--

THE COURT: All right. 165, can you see that?

JUROR 165: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Can I approach the board, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Just a second. If you will wait, doctor, I think Mr. Fairtlough is going to be able to bring that up on the elmo in case some of the jurors cannot see from the distance.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough, it is on page 142. Thank you.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, what you were just talking about, in looking at this diagram on 336, and in particular this upper left-hand area of the diagram, does this relate to that discussion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. If you look at this diagram, this is an example of a simple stab wound where there is no movement of the knife, there has been no movement of the subject and the knife has done a straight penetration. And in this particular instance the knife has almost entered the person to its fullest extent, almost to the handle part of the knife. What I was trying to refer to in the earlier discussion was that this width of the blade will correspond to the length of the wound on the body's surface, this wound, (Indicating). So if you have a knife which let's say at five inches is only half an inch wide at the base, with a straight penetration, I'm not talking about complex wound, straight penetration, it should leave a half-an-inch wound on the skin's surface. And of course I'm not going into the elasticity of the skin at this point--I'm just assuming that there is no elasticity--it would reflect the width of the blade. But if you have a knife which we had like we saw on the upper one--

MR. KELBERG: 332?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: --332, at the same length, the knife is quite wide, so naturally that wife will not be able to cause this type of wound because if it had to cause a longer wound on the body's surface, by looking at the wound you can tell that knife did not cause this type of wound because of the size of the length of the wound.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in shorthand, if the knife penetrates to its thickest portion--I'm sorry, widest portion, widest portion, and you had those two knives before, would the wider knife be expected to leave a longer wound on the surface of the body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And now, in the part of the exhibit that we have up there, that simple stab wound, in the silhouetted form, the knife, the tip does not appear to be in as far as the tip is of the fully formed out knife. Do you see that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And so assuming that that silhouetted form represents the same knife, but the depth of penetration is different, would the length of the wound be different even though the same knife is involved in creating both wounds?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Could you repeat your question?

MR. KELBERG: Yes. Using the silhouetted form that is there above--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Okay.

MR. KELBERG: --you see the outline?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Let me approach. Let me borrow the pointer if I could, please. I will call this the silhouetted form.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Okay.

MR. KELBERG: You see, doctor, do you not, that the penetration depth is shorter in that silhouetted form than in the form that shows the knife as it actually appears?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I follow that.

MR. KELBERG: All right. Now, doctor, assuming that that silhouetted form is the same knife, only the depth of penetration is less, does that affect the length of the wound on the surface of the body that that knife will leave?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, because most knives taper toward the tip, so if the knife has not fully penetrated the body, the reflection on the skin's surface will only reflect the portion of the blade which entered the body.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, can the same knife, therefore, leave different stab wounds of different lengths even though it is the same knife involved, depending on the depth of penetration?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Absolutely.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is it recognized in forensic pathology that that is the case, that a single knife can leave stab wounds on a body which have all different appearances?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And is that something that is indicated, usually by a photograph, in recognized forensic pathology texts?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I believe Mr. Shapiro has an objection to what I next wish to use. I don't know if the Court wishes to take its recess at this point.

THE COURT: Yes, we will do that. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take our normal recess at this time. Please remember all my admonitions to you. Don't discuss the case among yourselves, don't form any opinions about the case, don't conduct any deliberations until the matter has been submitted to you, do not allow anyone to communicate with you with regard to the case. And we will stand in recess until three o'clock. All right. Doctor, you can step down.

(Recess.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. All parties are again present. Let's have the jury, please. And, Mr. Kelberg, we're going to go until 4:30 for the next break.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. Hopefully I'm prepared.

THE COURT: Next break.

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Let the record reflect we've now been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. And, Mr. Kelberg, you may continue with your direct examination.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, just briefly, to show the difference in thickness in single-edged knives, I want to show you 334 and 333. 333 is the black-handled knife. 334 is the--I'm sorry. 334 is the brown-handled knife. Now, doctor, again, both of these are single-edged knives; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: If you could take for a moment just as we start this process of comparison--I want to start by putting exhibit 333 up on this board that has been marked as 336. Can you hold it up there to superimpose it over?

(The witness complies.)

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, if I mark with this marker right here with a straight line--not so straight, but will pass as close to straight at the point of penetration of the skin at the area of where the knife blade has been inserted, would that represent if you will the length of the wound on the body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, if it's a straight penetration.

MR. KELBERG: If you take this same knife, if you would, doctor, and try to superimpose it on the earlier silhouetted form.

(The witness complies.)

MR. KELBERG: In the point of penetration, I'm drawing another line which is closer to the tip of the knife blade. Is that an accurate reflection of the length of the wound on the body where the depth of penetration is as depicted in the diagram?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, if you can give me that for just a second.

(The witness complies.)

MR. KELBERG: And Mr. Fairtlough tells me that he can put this on the elmo and we can actually take a picture of it because this is not a permanent marker, your Honor.

THE COURT: Apparently not.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: It appears that Mr. Fairtlough's got as nervous a hand as I do.

THE COURT: No. That's pretty normal.

MR. KELBERG: Oh. For him or for me?

THE COURT: Normal.

MR. KELBERG: Now, Mr. Fairtlough, you're printing a picture so we can--

MR. KELBERG: All right. I'd like you also, if you could, please, to put these two knives--we used a different set of knives for comparison originally on thickness of blade. If you can do the same thing you did because I think it's a clearer distinction. No. Doctor, I'm sorry, or Mr. Fairtlough. Yeah. That's what I want to do. If you could turn these--I'm not sure if it's--doctor, as we are looking at these now, is the difference in thickness of blade between these two exhibits, 333 and 334, visible?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. The lower knife seems to be having a thicker blade than the upper knife there on the screen.

MR. KELBERG: And I'm not sure if Mr. Fairtlough can get our pointer out. And that knife is the black-handled knife which is going to be exhibit 333, and then the one below that has the thicker blade; is that correct, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, looking at the depiction again in 336--

MR. KELBERG: And thank you, Mr. Fairtlough. And by the way, your Honor, could the picture that was generated of the measurements of the different areas on the same knife, 333, be marked as exhibit 337?

THE COURT: How about 333-A?

MR. KELBERG: That's even better.

THE COURT: All right.

(Peo's 333-A for id = generated picture)

MR. KELBERG: I think, Mr. Fairtlough, you don't have to hold them there any longer.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, in pointing to the horizontal area going across where that wound is on the body, do you see that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You mean--

MR. KELBERG: Yeah. Not the length anymore, but the horizontal distance from one side to the other. No. Of the wound itself on the body, on the surface of the body.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Ends, ends of the wounds?

MR. KELBERG: Yeah. And if Mr. Fairtlough can get that back up. There we go. The horizontal--and perhaps Mr. Fairtlough with the arrow can show the distance from side to side of that particular wound. Do you see that, doctor? Not the--that's the length, right? Up and down is the length.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yeah.

MR. KELBERG: And side to side is the width, correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's kind of what he pointed out earlier.

MR. KELBERG: The width--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The width of the blade is this part. The length is this part (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: I'm not making myself clear, doctor. I am now focusing on the wound on the body surface, not the blade.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Okay.

MR. KELBERG: The wound.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The wound of the body surface here (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: Up and down, is that the length of the wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct.

MR. KELBERG: Side to side, side to side, is that the width of the wound on the surface? Mr. Fairtlough is working on the knife blade. Forget the arrow and forget the knife blade.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the--that is the width of the wound on the--on the body surface, and that would be the width, which may or may not correspond with the thickness of the blade.

MR. KELBERG: That's what I want to talk about. That thickness that we were looking at between 333 and 334, does that have some significance when you look at the width of the wound as it appears on the surface of the body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It's not--this width has some significance, but the width we are concerned with when we evaluate a wound and correlate it with the knife is the ends of the wound. We look at the ends of the wound to see whether the ends of the wound are sharp like in this picture here (Indicating) or they are blunted or squared off. And that would be a reflection of the blunt end of the knife.

MR. KELBERG: In the abstract sense, doctor, does the thickness of the blade as the inset of exhibit 336 indicates, does the thickness of the blade correspond in some fashion to the width of the wound on the body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. If you look at this picture here, you could see that the thickness of the blade corresponds to some extent to the width of the wound here (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: Now, is there a limitation that you as a forensic pathologist have to deal with in using the width of the wound on the body to estimate the thickness of the blade at that point of penetration?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. One is the elasticity of the skin, which is an important factor. And also, if it's a thin single-edged blade, you may--the--the blunt edge of the blade may not reflect its blunt edge on the wound of the body. It looked like as though it's a double--double-edged knife.

MR. KELBERG: And I'll get to that in a little while.

MR. KELBERG: But with the Court's permission, could the witness step down in front of the jury, and perhaps I can hold the knife so that the jury can see.

THE COURT: Yes.

(The witness complies.)

MR. KELBERG: Perhaps if I could just first walk down and let them have a chance to see it, and then I'll ask Dr. Lakshmanan some questions. And, Mr. Lynch, could you hand me the other knife that was exhibit 334?

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, we're going to object to this based on relevancy.

THE COURT: Mr. Kelberg, haven't we already demonstrated the relative thicknesses of the blade on the elmo?

MR. KELBERG: I'm not how clear it is, your Honor. We're now going to talk about the identification of wound patterns based upon the thickness.

THE COURT: It was already--it was already demonstrated on the elmo, the relative thicknesses.

MR. KELBERG: If the Court's satisfied that it's clear, then that's fine.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: I don't need to do this then.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, given--let's take a look at exhibit 333. Does the thickness of that blade change as one moves--if you could hold it up too.

(The witness complies.)

MR. KELBERG: Does the thickness of that blade change as one moves from the handle of the blade to the tip of the blade?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Both the thickness and the width of the blade narrows as it goes towards the tip. So the tip of the blade is not as thick or as wide as it is in the proximal portion of the blade near the handle. So the tip of the blade is much thinner and less wider.

MR. KELBERG: As a result of that, in this kind of knife, assuming this kind of knife is used to inflict two stab wounds like we talked about before, and in one stab wound, it's like we have it in this diagram where the knife goes all the way to the handle, and in the other stab wound, it goes in only to the level depicted in the silhouette, would you expect the width of the wound to differ between those two wounds even though the same knife is involved in both stab wounds?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection on grounds of relevancy and that it assumes a fact not in evidence in this case. It's already been said this is not the knife.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. KELBERG: You may answer the question.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You would see a difference because in this particular knife, near the tip of the knife, the knife is not as thick as it is in the base of the knife. So the wound which is caused by the knife having penetrated the body fully, you would find that one end of the knife will be slightly blunted whereas if the knife had only penetrated up to the--this mark (Indicating) portion of it, the knife will look as though it is not blunt on one end. It will look as though sharp on both ends.

MR. KELBERG: Is the width of the wound--if the penetration is not as deep, is the width of the wound going to appear narrower?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Than the width of the wound if there is penetration all the way?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. In this knife, yes.

MR. KELBERG: And assuming that that same knife is used with multiple stab wounds, that same kind of knife with the tapering effect, can you end up on a single individual with many stab wounds, all of which have different widths?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: All of which have different lengths of the wounds on the body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: All of which have different depths of penetration?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Especially if the knife also has had some rocking motion to it.

MR. KELBERG: And we're going to get to that on this form 336 in just a moment. Doctor, if we can move to the lower part of the same chart, 336, what is intended to be conveyed by this particular box?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is to show a factor which must be kept in mind when you evaluate knife wounds. If the knife has penetrated a part of the body which is compressible like the abdomen where you can press and the knife can go all the way in and you can also press the skin surface, there's no bony structure there, then the compressibility factor would make the knife penetrate much deeper into the body cavity. So what you will have in that situation is, after the knife has been withdrawn--this is an example. The abdomen has been--let's assume this is the abdomen and this is a structure in the abdomen (Indicating). The knife has compressed the abdominal wall and the whole knife blade has gone quite a significant depth in the cavity. But when the knife is withdrawn, the abdominal compressibility factor is taken away. The length of the wound track in the body remains the same, but it does not really reflect the length of the blade because the body compression has created an additional length in the wound track in the body.

MR. KELBERG: In that situation, doctor, does the depth of the wound appear longer than the actual length of the blade that has penetrated the body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Does that create difficulties for you as a forensic pathologist with respect to identifying the specific length of a single knife which may have caused a multitude of stab wounds on a single person?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. That is why when a forensic pathologist reviews the wounds of the body, you would like to pick a wound like is shown on this upper part of this board where there is a simple penetration and you are confident that the wound track would reflect the true length of the blade as much as possible rather than pick a wound where you have this compressibility factor which is added to the length of the weapon.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I don't think you provided more definition with respect to this concept of the elasticity of the skin and how that affects your ability to get some idea of the measurements of a knife blade. Can you elaborate on that, please?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The skin is in a state of tension in the body because of arrangement of elastic fibers in the area called the dermis. Dermis is just below the skin surface and underlying connective tissue. And the orientation of these elastic fibers are in a particular access, particular access in different parts of the body. The perfect example will be the neck area of the body. The--the--these lines of skin tension are called the lines of Langer, but there are other terms used, also called lanes of Krassl, K-R-A-S-S-L, because Langer worked on cadavers, but Krassl worked on living people where he could analyze elasticity better. A perfect example would be the area of the neck. The lines of skin tension run along the crease of your neck in everybody. This--that is why--and this is important, because if you have a wound which is at right angles to the skin tension line, the wound would gape. But if the incision is made along, parallel to the crease, the wound won't gape. The perfect example is when you go for thyroid surgery, the surgeon always makes an incision like this. He doesn't make an incision like this (Indicating), because--

MR. KELBERG: If you'll stop for a second. For the record, your Honor, that Dr. Lakshmanan is going side to side as the way the incision is made on the neck rather than up and down from the chin down towards the toe area.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry, doctor. Continue.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: So that would be an example to formulate--and these are--these have been well prodded in the body. So surgeons know how to make an incision. You'll see when you go for an appendix always the scars like this (Indicating) unless it's an emergency surgery. Then they'll open the abdomen in the midline. But--so the surgeons know where the lines of skin tension are. And so what happens is, if somebody has a stab wound which is at right angles to these lines of skin tension, the wound will gape. So you have to approximate the wound before you measure. And the same lines of skin tension and the elasticity also will make a wound look smaller than the width of the blade. For example, if the width of the blade is half an inch, if the wound is at right angles or oblique to the skin lines of tension, the wound may look even smaller than what it is supposed to be with the width of the weapon at the point of penetration.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I'm going to ask Mr. Fairtlough to put page 296 from Spitz and Fisher, medical and legal definition of death, 3rd edition, on the elmo and ask that the photograph or the printout that will be presented be marked as our next exhibit, 337.

(Peo's 337 for id = printout)

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what are we looking at in this particular photograph from the textbook?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: These are diagrammatic representation of the human body with the distribution of the Langer's lines. If you focus to 180 of the body like the head and neck, which again is an example, we can see--can we go--

MR. KELBERG: Can we zero in, Mr. Fairtlough, on that area, perhaps on the left--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Let's go to the neck area. Focus. This is the front of the body (Indicating). Can you move the arrow down to the neck area? Can you move the arrow down to the middle of the neck?

MR. KELBERG: Middle of the neck, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yeah. If--and run the arrow from one end of the right end of the neck to the left end of the neck. Just follow--just follow the lines there, and that will be a reflection of the lines of Langer in the neck area. If a wound is made parallel to this line of Langer (Indicating), the wound will not gap--I mean gape. But if the wound is made at right angles to the line of Langer, the wound will gape. And--

MR. KELBERG: For right angles, Mr. Fairtlough, could you make--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Perpendicular to the lines of Langer.

MR. KELBERG: --could you make a line that would be perpendicular to the line you just drew in? No. Actually that's--the line you now have drawn, the second line, if you can hold that one on the--what would be the right side of the neck of the schematic and remove the other diagram--the other line--excuse me--if you can. Okay. We're going to--now, if you could draw at a 90-Degree angle, Mr. Fairtlough, to the base of that--Mr. Fairtlough may not have done well in trigonometry.

THE COURT: I think it's geometry.

MR. KELBERG: It may be both, your Honor. I may not have done so well myself. May I have just a moment to confer with Mr. Fairtlough?

THE COURT: You may.

MR. KELBERG: We'll see if our combined knowledge of the subject is sufficient.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. KELBERG: We're going to try again. Third time's the charm. Fourth time's the charm. Well, that's not exactly 90 degrees, but we'll settle for it.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, does this depict in general terms the differences--if you take the line that is running along parallel to or superimposed on top of one of these lines of Langer, what kind of width of the wound on the body would you expect to see?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The--the wound will not gape and would give you a better reflection of the width of the weapon and also the length of the wound would be better reflected for the class characteristic of the weapon. But if the wound is at right angles, the sharp Langer is going up from head to toe, which was just removed from the screen, then the wound would gape.

MR. KELBERG: And do these phenomena create difficulties to you as a forensic pathologist in being able to give precision to the dimensions of any knife, assuming for the sake of argument that a single knife is responsible for a multitude of stab wounds on a human body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is a factor one has to keep in mind, and that is why when you make the measurements, the wound has to be approximated and measured accurately.

MR. KELBERG: Now, I don't know if Mr. Fairtlough can print that out. That's okay. Let's go to the same page and the bottom portion and ask your Honor that this be marked as exhibit 338 when it's printed out.

THE COURT: 338.

(Peo's 338 for id = printout)

MR. KELBERG: And if we could back up, Mr. Fairtlough, so we can see both sides of the bottom portion and perhaps raise it. Thank you.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what is depicted in what appear to be these two photographs from the same page of the book?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The photograph on the right is a gaping stab wound and the photograph on the left is the same wound after it has been approximated. You can see that an approximation of the wound has a longer length when compared to the wound which is gaping and if you had measured it in the gaping state.

MR. KELBERG: Is it the standard practice for forensic pathologists such as yourself or Dr. Golden when seeing gaping stab wounds, to do an approximation of the wound as it was when inflicted?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. And measure it in the approximated state.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, in the photograph that's on the left side of what's on the board right now, has something been done to hold the approximated state of the wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There's been adhesive tape applied.

MR. KELBERG: In your practice at the Coroner's office, is it the custom and practice of your forensic pathologists to use such tape to hold the position of the approximated wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. We approximate the wounds and take a measurement. I think the adhesive tape has been used here so that you can take a good photograph.

MR. KELBERG: Now, if Mr. Fairtlough could print this out as I think I said, your Honor, as exhibit 338?

THE COURT: 338.

MR. KELBERG: And go one page beyond and again focus on exactly where you've got it, maybe just a little lower, and if we could move it just a little to the left to see the full right side. And ask, your Honor, that this printout be marked as exhibit 339.

THE COURT: 339.

(Peo's 339 for id = printout)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what are we seeing on the right side and the--actually the left side let's start with--of these two photographs?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The one on the left shows the--which is gaping and the wound to the right shows an approximated wound that is also an extension of an incision.

MR. KELBERG: Now, the approximated wound, there appear to be some fingernails at the top and a finger at the bottom of the photograph of the approximated wound. Is that what you would expect to see from the forensic pathologist who is approximating the wound for measurement purposes?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And is this the standard procedure that is done by you and the other forensic pathologists at the Coroner's office when dealing with gaping stab wounds?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, there appears to be some measuring device in the bottom of both photographs on the left and right side. Do you see that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And what is reflected by the approximation of that gaping wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It would give a better reflection of the--of the length of the wound than when it was in the gaping state.

MR. KELBERG: And in the approximated state, does the wound have a greater length on the body surface than it would otherwise appear to have in the gaping state?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And does it have a narrower width on the body surface than the gaping wound appears to have?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And if that can just be printed out, I think we're done with that one.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, you mentioned something about "Incised wound." I think you mentioned the term before. And I want to invite your attention if Mr. Fairtlough can switch hands and photographs and whatever and bring up from the same exhibit the upper right-hand corner.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what is depicted in the upper right hand box of this exhibit, 336?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the incised wound. And by definition, an incised wound is that the length of the wound of the body surface is greater than the depth. As you can see from the photograph, I mean the projected image on the screen, the depth of the wound is very shallow. Go to the top of the image. You can see the depth reflected there. And the length of the wound on the skin surface is very long compared to the depth. So this wound, which is shown on the projector image, would fit the definition of an incised wound. And this is in contrast to a stab wound where the depth of the wound on the body--in the body will be longer than the length of the wound on the body surface.

MR. KELBERG: And for that comparison, doctor, I don't know if Mr. Fairtlough needs to change images, but if we go back to the upper left-hand block of this exhibit, 336, is that clearly shown by what we are seeing on that board?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. And actually the one which I showed where the compressibility shows it much better.

MR. KELBERG: All right. If Mr. Fairtlough--he's got that already.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: See, the--in this particular wound, you can see that the length of the body surface is much shorter compared to the length of the wound--I mean the depth of the wound, and this would fit the definition of a stab wound. So to repeat, incised wound, the length of the wound of the body surface is longer than the depth and the stab wound, the depth of the wound is longer than the length of the wound in the body surface.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if you have an incised wound, are you able to use that kind of wound to assess class characteristics of the knife that inflicted that incised wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Why not?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because you can have a single-edged blade cause an incised wound and you will not be able to differentiate it from an incised wound from a double-edged knife because only one edge is being used and it can very well cause a cut.

MR. KELBERG: Can you use an incised wound to assess the length of the blade of any particular knife that may have inflicted that incised wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Why not?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because you can have a very small--even a pocketknife that can cause a seven-inch long wound of the body surface and you can not use the length of the wound of the body surface to gauge the length of the knife.

MR. KELBERG: Can you use the depth of an incised wound, which is as you say by definition, is going to be shorter than the length of the wound on the body, can you use the depth of the wound to identify class characteristics of the knife with respect to length of the blade for example?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Width of the blade?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Thickness of the blade?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, I'm going to show you exhibit 335. You mentioned differentiating a single-edged blade from a double-edged blade. Let me show you that knife. Are you familiar with in general terms the kind of knife that that is?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is a double-edged knife. It looks like a dagger.

MR. KELBERG: Let me ask Mr. Fairtlough if he would, please, to just put this up on the elmo. And also, I'll ask him--let me borrow that. Does Mr. Fairtlough still have the other--doctor, by any chance, do you have the other knife?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Oh, yes. I'm sorry.

MR. KELBERG: Exhibit 333. Let me ask if Mr. Fairtlough can put these side by side. 333 you've already said is a single-edged blade. Can you indicate, doctor, what is the difference between a double-edged blade and the single-edged blade?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: In double edge, both the edges are sharp, and that is the main difference between the double edge and the single edge.

MR. KELBERG: And Mr. Fairtlough is turning the exhibit, 335, the double-edged blade on its side. Is this one of the sharp edges?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And if he turns it 180 degrees, is this the other sharp edge?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Yes.

MR. KELBERG: In comparison with the exhibit 333, as he's turned it here, is this the blunt end?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And 180 degrees, and that is the sharp end?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Or edge I should say?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, Mr. Fairtlough.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, if we could move to the bottom box of exhibit 336, and I think Mr. Fairtlough will join us in a moment. What does this represent?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is what is a complex stab incised wound which is being diagrammatically represented. And what we have is not only the twisting of the weapon during penetration as you can see from the arrows going in a clockwise direction around the blade, and we also have a component of rocking motion to the knife which would create a greater length on the skin surface than the--than what the width of the knife should really reflect. So you not only have turning and twisting of the weapon, but you also have the--an incised component.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, with the Court's permission, could you step down in front of the jury box, and let me hand you exhibit 333. I've known you a long time. I assume you will not use this in anything but a careful manner. Can you demonstrate without penetration on me what it is that is this turning and rocking motion that you're talking about?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It could be two ways this can happen. Either the victim moves and the knife is being penetrated or the knife could be turning when the penetration is taking place, and this is the dominant twisting of the weapon when it happens (Demonstrating). The other one is not only is the knife penetrating, but also there is a cutting component to the penetration when it's being inflicted or when the knife is being penetrated, the victim pulls themselves away from the weapon. So that can also cause a complexity and creating the cutting component to the penetrating stab wound.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if you use my arm as the area which is going to be penetrated without penetrating as I say and without blocking the view of any jurors--I think you're going to have to back up just a bit--can you demonstrate what you're talking about by just bringing the tip to the edge of my arm?

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object to this.

THE COURT: Overruled. Do you want to come over here and watch?

MR. SHAPIRO: No, thank you. I can see.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is called twisting (Demonstrating).

MR. KELBERG: You'll have to keep your voice up, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Twisting and also creating a cutting component (Demonstrating).

MR. KELBERG: And if the victim moves, in this case, my arm, at the time that the knife is being penetrated, what effect if any does that have on the appearance of the wound on the body after the knife is withdrawn?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It will be a complex wound which will have characteristics which are different from a simple penetration which is the wound you look for to compare cause characteristics.

MR. KELBERG: And how will the wound appear with respect to the accuracy of the actual thickness of the blade, the width of the blade and the length of the blade?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There will be a lot of variability in the wound. You really will not be able to use that wound for this kind of analysis. It will not reflect even reasonable accuracy.

MR. KELBERG: You'll have to--let me get--let me take that back from you, and if you'll retake the stand.

(The witness complies.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, does that aspect, this complex stab incised wound, create difficulties for you as a forensic pathologist looking at a body with multiple wounds of that type to identify with any precision the actual characteristics of the knife; that is the length of the blade, the width of the blade, the thickness of the blade?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It will be difficult when you use such a wound to do that kind of analysis. So that is why, as I mentioned earlier, forensic pathologist has to study all the wounds of the body and then pick the wounds which would reflect best a simple penetration which would better give--which would give a better evaluation of a class characteristic of--class characteristic of a suspect weapon.

MR. KELBERG: And even in the circumstance of a simple stab wound as indicated in the upper left-hand box, can you with precision identify the length of the blade, the width of the blade, the thickness of the blade?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You can--you can analyze the--those factors, but as I mentioned earlier, you now have to keep in mind the elasticity factor in mind when you make such--when you give an opinion as to a particular weapon causing a particular wound.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in your practice of many years, in your experience with many cases of sharp force injuries, how common is it for you as a forensic pathologist to be able to identify a specific knife to a specific stab wound in a particular case?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We have done it a few times when the knife is left on the body penetrated and the knife is still in the body. The other is when the knife tip breaks and you recover the weapon where the other part of the broken knife, you can match the broken tip to the weapon. And we have done it on a--I mean, we have had cases like that. And of course, the other serological markers will also help, if there's blood staining on the knife belonging to a particular victim and the knife is found, and that may also help. But as far as wound characteristics go and correlating the particular weapon, these would be two situations where you could be precise, that you have a bit of the knife that matches the weapon or you have the knife in the body.

MR. KELBERG: And absent those situations, dealing exclusively with wound characteristics of depth of penetration, length of wound on the surface and width of the wound on the surface, in your experience, are you able to identify a specific knife's dimensions that may be responsible for any stab wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We can estimate a class characteristic of a group of weapons, but it would be difficult to estimate a particular weapon to all the wounds.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is there anything further about this chart that you need to identify for a better understanding of sharp force injuries and knife class characteristics?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have another board.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: I believe--is this 340, your Honor, exhibit 340? I've lost track now.

THE COURT: 340.

(Peo's 340 for id = board)

MR. KELBERG: May this board then be marked as exhibit 340 entitled "Wound characteristics and possible sources"? And, Mr. Fairtlough, if you could go to the top portion.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in general terms, what is this chart intended to depict?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is to depict the wound characteristics on the body surface correlating it with the width and thickness of the blade.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, is the appearance of the wound on the body surface, the ends in their appearance, of significance to you as a forensic pathologist in identifying a class of knife or classes of knives which could have inflicted that particular injury?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: In what manner?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: If you look at the image projector on the screen, the appearance of the wound which you see, you have a sharp end--I mean, you have a sharp end in the lower part and a blunt squared off end on the upper part. This is the appearance of the wound on the body surface of a simple penetration of a single-edged knife where the upper part would reflect the blunt end of the weapon.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, the simple stab wound was like that first block that we looked at in the previous exhibit, 336?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: In looking at this particular correlation between sharp and blunt ends; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And using our exhibit 333, can you point out what it is, which part of the knife leaves which aspect of the wound characteristic?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The squared--

MR. KELBERG: And hold it up high, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The squared-off end of the wound, the upper part which the arrow is pointing to, is reflected by this blunt end of this knife. The sharp end of the lower part of that wound on the projected image is reflected by the cutting edge of this blade (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, if the depth of penetration that creates the blunt and sharp ends, if the depth of penetration changes using this same knife and the knife has a taper as you indicated before, how does that affect what you're going to see with respect to the blunt end and the sharp end?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You will not have the same squared-off end on the upper part. If you go to the lower picture, you may have a picture like wound no. 2 here (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough is going to move us down I think.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: So if the knife only penetrated a portion, the same knife would--could--may create a wound which is sharp on both upper and lower ends.

MR. KELBERG: And there are some red lines that go from the top and bottom of wound no. 2 back to that top knife. That top knife is to represent a single-edged blade?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct.

MR. KELBERG: And that's the kind like you're holding, 333?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And at this depth of penetration, this is a--a narrower penetration, not as deep; is that--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It's a shadow penetration.

MR. KELBERG: All right. And you're basically at--closer to the end of the knife blade; is that accurate?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And when you do so, then you're going to see something in the way of the wound pattern that is different than the one we just saw even though it's made by the same knife?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Are you trained to look for those things?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And do you have experience in identifying those things?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, according to this, we also have something "Or double-edged knife." Explain that for us, if you would, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We had this dagger type knife shown earlier which is sharp on both ends. When that knife causes a penetrating wound, you would have a wound as is seen in diagram no. 2, which is the--both the upper and lower ends being shot.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, let me hand you exhibit 335. And if you'll hold it up high, and you can use the pointer with the board we have here rather than just looking at the screen. Show us what you mean.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This dagger type knife has a sharp end on both sides, and this knife, when there's a simple penetration, will leave a wound just like you see on item 2 here with sharp ends both--at both ends of the wound of the body surface.

MR. KELBERG: And where the red dotted lines go from the top and the bottom to the depiction on the exhibit 340, is that to show the portion of the knife blade that leaves those two sharp ends?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, you may retake the stand.

(The witness complies.)

MR. KELBERG: Is this situation of the double-edged blade one that is created by a similar, that is simple stab wound like we saw before in the very first box of the earlier chart, 336?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: How do you as a forensic pathologist or can you as a forensic pathologist differentiate--if you see such a wound characteristic, two sharp ends, how can you differentiate if at all between whether it's a single-edged knife blade or a double-edged knife blade?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It will be very difficult because you can have a very thin, not so thick single-edged knife with a tapering end which can simulate the same appearance. So when you have a wound like that, you can not say with certainty whether it was a double-edged knife or a single-edged knife, and this is in contrast to wound pattern no. 1 where you have a definite blunt edge where you can say with definite reasonable certainty that it was only caused by a single-edged knife and not a double-edged knife.

MR. KELBERG: Now, I would like you to talk about the last entry, item no. 3, and the pattern that is depicted in this schematic.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Pattern no. 3 has a sharp--this again the body surface. You're showing a wound appearance on a body surface--has a sharp end in the lower end, but the other end is forked on the upper end. It's forked. Now, this could happen in two fashions. One--and again, if the knife is--if the single-edged knife is very blunt--towards the base of the knife, some knives are very thick and the thickness is up to one-eighth of an inch--those kinds of knives, when they do a simple straight penetration, they--the wound will appear forked on the skin surface because of the width of the--I mean, due to the thickness of the blade.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, showing you what I think is our exhibit 334, this appeared to have been the thicker of the two Forschner single-edged blade knives; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Can you point out using that exhibit what it is you're talking about with respect to the thicker blunt end?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This knife as we go to the base is quite thick near the base. And actually if the knife is even thicker than this, you can get a forking which you just see in item no. 3 on the poster. Because what happens is, each end of this thick blade will act like a cutting edge and split the skin. But you can also get the same appearance from twisting of the weapon.

MR. KELBERG: Twisting of what kind of weapon, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: From a double-edged knife. Even though this is a single-edged knife with a pointed end and a forked end, you can have a double-edged knife which can cause a similar wound if there's some twisting of the weapon.

MR. KELBERG: Once again, doctor, how can you differentiate if at all as to whether it's a single-edged knife or a double-edged knife if you see a wound pattern such as is shown in diagram 3?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You will have difficulty. You have to be--you have to analyze the wound and also see how thick the forking is. If the forking is between one-sixteenth or one-eighth inch, it would--it could very well be from a thick single-edged blade. But you can not exclude a double-edged knife.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, in your experience and training, are these aspects of wound characteristics and class characteristics of knives in trying to correlate one with the other what you would describe as bread and butter forensic pathology?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Anything esoteric about them?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Is there anything further about this exhibit 340 that we need to talk about?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I'm not sure that we marked this as exhibit 341. I think it should be.

THE COURT: All right. 341. What's the title of the board?

MR. KELBERG: "Wound characteristics and possible sources." I'm sorry. It was marked as 340.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. KELBERG: I stand corrected.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I want to change topics for a moment and discuss something called blunt force trauma. You mentioned it I think on Friday, and let's discuss it if we could, please, in a little more detail. First of all, your generalized definition of what blunt force trauma is.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Blunt force trauma is injuries caused by blunt force which could be anywhere from, as I mentioned earlier, a hammer or a two-by-two striking a person or a vehicle striking a person, an auto with a pedestrian injury where you have multiple injuries where the force is a blunt type force.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have another chart that I would ask to be marked then as exhibit 341, and it is entitled "Blunt force trauma."

THE COURT: People's 341.

(Peo's 341 for id = chart)

MR. KELBERG: And I think--Mr. Fairtlough, do you have this?

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, we don't have this to put on the overhead. So if you could step to the board, the exhibit 341, and tell us what is shown in this exhibit.

THE COURT: All right. 165, can you see that?

JUROR NO. 165: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

MR. KELBERG: Go ahead, doctor.

THE COURT: Proceed.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: We have a general structure of the skin here. The surface of the skin has some layers of cells which is called the epidermis, and then you have below that the dermis in which you have the hair follicles and the sweat glands, and this is where your elastic fibers and Langer's lines I discussed is in this region, and then you have the subcutaneous tissue, which is the fatty tissue and then you have facial muscle underneath that (Indicating). This is the general structure of the skin, a cross-section of it. Now, you have different types of blunt force which can leave markings on the skin, and you can tell the difference by looking at the appearance of the wound.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if you could retake the stand for just a second. I want to talk about some of the topics of blunt force trauma that on the board. First of all, there's the word under no. 1 "Abrasions." Is that a form of blunt force trauma?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is an abrasion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: An abrasion is the scraping of the skin. It generally reflects scraping of the epidermis which is the cells on the top of the surface of the skin, this area (Indicating), and that is an abrasion and there could be different types of abrasion injury.

MR. KELBERG: And under 1, we have A, something called "Punctate abrasions." Does that term have significance to you as a forensic pathologist?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is it?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is an abrasion which is very small and punctate on the skin surface.

MR. KELBERG: When you use a definition within a definition, I have to ask--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Punctate means minute, small area.

MR. KELBERG: And B is something called "Pattern abrasions." What are those?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Pattern is when--when you have a scraping of the skin which is patterned, following the pattern of the object inflicting that injury. Like if somebody is wearing a weaved dress and they have a blunt force striking them over the dress, the dress could leave a pattern on the skin. That could be pattern abrasion. But you could have an object hitting a surface without any clothing on the surface, but the object may have a pattern to it, which could leave a pattern on the skin surface. So that would be an abrasion injury with a pattern. But usually such injuries, when you have an object striking the body which leaves a pattern, will usually be an abrasion contusion. That is, you'll also have bruising of the tissue underneath that area of injury.

MR. KELBERG: Before we get further definition of that, number one, do you have training as a forensic pathologist in being able to identify abrasions?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is it you look for?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You look at the skin surface. And especially if it's a graze abrasion, which an example would be a bullet swiping the surface of the body without penetrating the body, or a scratch abrasion like a fingernail scratching the body surface, then what happens is, in these type of forces, the skin--top layer skin is peeled off the surface. So you can tell direction by looking at which end of the wound has piling of the epithelium. For example, in this tangential graze or scratch type abrasion, the skin is being peeled off. Of course, this reflects the epidermis. You have a piling of the epithelium on one end, and you can see this under just gross examination. You may use a magnifying glass. You may need to use magnifying glass sometimes, but you will able to see this. And this would reflect either the force went in this direction or the body moved in this direction against that rough surface (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: Just for the record, your Honor, the force would be moving left to right across exhibit 341 where the "Tangential" word appears, and if the body was moving, the direction would be from the right side of the exhibit to the left side as the doctor indicated.

THE COURT: Noted.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, what would you as a forensic pathologist expect to see in the way of coloration from an abrasion that is inflicted while a person is alive?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The abrasions could be anywhere from red brown to darker colors. And as you can see, that the epidermis is not just a flat surface. It's got some undulations. And underneath the undulations, you have what is called the Rete ridges, R-E-T-E R-I-D-G-E-S, of the dermis where there's vascular channels, which are vessels. So when you have an abrasion, you can also have some bleeding from the underlying ridges, which I just alluded to, and you could have some bleeding from an abrasion or oozing of blood and fluid from the abrasion. So--so by looking at the abrasion, you will be able to tell whether it looks antemortem, when the person was alive, and--or if it happened postmortem, when the abrasion will not be the reddish brown appearance, you'll have a more pale brown appearance. But if you just have an abrasion just involving the epidermis, sometimes it's difficult when you don't have any bleeding component to it.

MR. KELBERG: Exhibit 341 also has a term under "Graze" and "Scratch." Are you familiar with that term, "Brush burn"?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: "Brush burn" is caused by friction of rubbing against a rough surface where a large area of the body is involved like somebody dragging a person with the skin coming in contact with the ground surface as they're being dragged. That would be one example. The other example, where somebody who is a pedestrian is hit by a car and then they're thrown off and then they are thrown--dragged along the surface, and that would be an example of--these would be examples of brush burns. So basically, it's caused by the friction of rubbing of the surface, against a rough surface.

MR. KELBERG: And how if at all are you able to distinguish as a forensic pathologist between what is a brush burn abrasion and a graze abrasion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, graze abrasion is more localized to an area, but a brush burn is usually a terminology used for a larger area of an abrasion in the situations I just described.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, you mentioned the word "Contusions." I think you've mentioned it several times in the course of your testimony. What is a contusion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: A contusion is the crushing of the soft tissues where the surface of the skin need not necessarily be broken. That will be just a plain contusion, where the skin surface is not broken, but the tissues are crushed and the vessels in the soft tissues bleed. And in lay terminology, this would be a bruise.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, when you say that the skin surface may not be affected, would you be able to see anything as a forensic pathologist looking at the skin surface of someone who has sustained such a contusion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It will be intact. You'll have a bruising of the soft tissues without the skin surface being affected because if the skin surface has an abrasion like I just mentioned when I described pattern abrasion caused by a force, then you'll have an abrasion component and a contusion component.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, assuming that a person has a beating heart, an adequate blood pressure at the time the contusion is sustained, would there be any obvious indication by color on the surface of the person's body that such event has occurred?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. You'll have bleeding in the soft tissues and then you can tell that this happened when the person had blood pressure. Usually a fresh abrasion will be a reddish blue or a bluish purple color.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry. You said fresh abrasion.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I mean fresh contusion. I'm sorry.

MR. KELBERG: And what would you expect to see if you have one of these situations where you have both an abrasion and a contusion? From the same event; is that correct, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What do you respect to see then?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You would see an abrasion, and underlying that area of abrasion, you'll see the contusion. And sometimes the abrasion may involve the entire area of contusion or, depending on what kind of force was involved, you may have a smaller area of abrasion surrounded by a large area of contusion.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, would you describe these aspects of forensic pathology as bread and butter issues?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Anything further that you wish to add about contusions?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Nothing further.

MR. KELBERG: And the third entry says something about "Lacerations." Is that another form of blunt force trauma?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is that all about?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Laceration occurs when the--when a blunt force strikes the skin surface. And underlying the skin surface, there is a bony structure which offers resistance. The perfect example would be your skin surface on your skull or forehead area. So if you have a blunt force striking that area, the skin is sandwiched and you have the resisting bony structure underlying the skin. So the skin would tear under--when such a force is applied. And an example would be like somebody's head being hit with a crowbar or somebody--or by a two-by-two. You'll have a tear in the skin.

MR. KELBERG: And in the lower portion of our exhibit 341, there appears to be some schematic representation with the word "Laceration." What is that intended to show?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That intends to show several things. One, when you have a blunt force which causes the tear, as I just described, you'll also have the contusion and abrasion of the edges. You'll also--since it's a tear of the skin, it won't be a clean-cut tear. You'll have some bridging of tissue in the depth of the laceration.

MR. KELBERG: And again, is that a bread and butter issue for a forensic pathologist such as yourself?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in examining the body of someone like Nicole Brown Simpson or Ronald Goldman, do you attempt to correlate blunt force trauma with the environment in which the decedent's body was found?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Why do you do that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because it tries to explain the injuries you have observed and documented, and you try and see which environmental factor could be responsible for a particular injury.

MR. KELBERG: And you testified earlier that you have twice visited 875 South Bundy; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Was one of your purposes in making those visits to look at the environmental surroundings from the standpoint of what could be responsible for any blunt force trauma identified on the bodies of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct. I also saw the location of the various structures in relationship to each other.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in general terms, can blunt force trauma be caused by somebody's fist to another person's head?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: So it doesn't require some object. It can be a body part striking another person's body part?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is there anything else, doctor, in general terms that you want to point out regarding blunt force trauma?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I think we have covered the highlights.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have another small board. May this be marked as exhibit 342, entitled, "Terminology describing when injuries were received relative to the time of death"?

THE COURT: All right. Why don't we pull that up. Can we move that up just a little? Can we move it up just a little?

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough or Mr. Lynch. I'm mechanically inept. So I'm sure I'll break this thing if I try.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fairtlough.

(Brief pause.)

(Peo's 342 for id = board)

THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. KELBERG: You've already I think used two of these terms, doctor, but would you take us through these three terms, what they mean to you as a forensic pathologist?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Antemortem means occurring before death. Perimortem means occurring around the time of death and postmortem means occurring after death.

MR. KELBERG: And going back just to sharp force injuries, are you trained as a forensic pathologist to look at whether a stab wound, for example, was inflicted before the person died, at or around the time the person died or after the person was dead?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What do you look for?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: When you have a stab wound, you have injury to the structures of the body, and if the person is alive, they would have blood pressure. So there would be bleeding in the tissues along the track of the wound. And looking just at the wound and the bleeding pattern, you will know that the wound was inflicted when the person had blood pressure and was alive. This is in contrast to a person who is dead. You won't have the same amount of hemorrhage into the tissues. You won't have any hemorrhage in the tissues because they don't have any blood pressure.

MR. KELBERG: And this middle term of "Peri mortem," occurring at or around the time of death, how if at all can you distinguish between an antemortem and a perimortem stab wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The perimortem will have some hemorrhage, but not much hemorrhage. It would mean that the person sustained the wound towards the end of the--just before the person died or when the person was almost in shock when the bleeding for a particular wound should have been more significant than what you see in the wound track.

MR. KELBERG: What does "Shock" mean?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Shock is when you completely lose your blood pressure. And to put it in simple terms, the--an organ or a part of the body doesn't get any blood supply because the heart is not pumping the blood, there's no blood pressure. So there's no profusion of the tissues in the different parts of the body.

MR. KELBERG: "Profusion" means just the blood supply getting to those areas of the body?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: So can a person be alive, but as a result of shock, have very low blood pressure?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And if that is the case, what will you find with respect to this hemorrhaging in a stab wound that is inflicted at the time the person is in shock?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It will not have the same amount of bleeding which you would expect in a person who had full blood pressure. You'll still see some bleeding. That's how you can still classify it as perimortem because if you don't see bleeding and--it could very well be a postmortem wound also.

MR. KELBERG: Now, how about blunt force trauma? How do you differentiate the three when you have evidence of an abrasion for example?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: An abrasion, as I told you, you have the--the effect of the skin surface being peeled. And let's say there's no bleeding. Still, any reaction to the body which occurs during life will have what's called a vital reaction to it because there's what's called inflammation reaction of the body which is normal. If you scratch yourself on the skin surface, you will see there's a red line coming on to it. You are not causing any injury to the skin. If you all just practice and just scratch your skin on the surface, you'll see a red line. And that is the vital reaction the body does. It's an inflammation reaction, is to--is due to production of certain hormones which causes dilatation of the vessels and causes this hyperemia or engorgement of the vessels, is due to release of some hormones like histamine and serotonin, S-E-R-O-T-O-N-I-N. So that's one factor you will see, which is kind of--you can see is a vital reaction.

MR. KELBERG: What other factors if any would you be looking for to distinguish an antemortem from a perimortem abrasion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The appearance. The--just the appearance, the--as I told you, the bruise, you'll have bleeding. In abrasions, you'd be more reddish brown and dark reddish brown. One way to definitely prove your point would be to take a microscopic section and look at the tissue or you can also do analysis of the tissue, which is not readily available to study for this--the presence of these hormones.

MR. KELBERG: And how do you distinguish postmortem?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Postmortem will be pale and you won't have any bleeding or any reaction to the tissue if you take a microscopic section.

MR. KELBERG: How about on contusions? Is there any difference in what you're looking for to distinguish an antemortem, perimortem or postmortem contusion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Postmortem, you won't get--you won't have the bleeding to the tissues as you see with an antemortem contusion.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have another chart.

MR. KELBERG: I guess we're going to be moving into, doctor, the actual protocols in these two cases, Ronald Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I would ask that this chart entitled "Anatomical terms" be marked as exhibit I think 343.

THE COURT: 343.

(Peo's 343 for id = chart)

MR. KELBERG: I should have watched Mr. Fairtlough. I may have been able to do this on my own.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, when you as a forensic pathologist look at wounds on the body, do you attempt to describe the location of any such wound when you are dictating an autopsy protocol?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: These terms that are used, these six terms that are used on our exhibit 343, do they have meaning to you as a forensic pathologist for the purposes of identifying where on the body a particular wound is located?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What do they mean to you, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Anterior means towards the front of the body. Posterior means towards the back of the body.

MR. KELBERG: If you'll stop. When you say the front of the body, are you talking about the front chest area?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Okay. And the back of the area would be to literally the backside?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Are these relative terms; that is a wound may be anterior to something or posterior to something?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. But still, the--what anterior means, that means that particular structure in the context you're describing was towards the front of the body.

MR. KELBERG: What about 3 and 4? What do they represent?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Superior and inferior refers to--superior means towards the head region. Inferior means towards the toe region. And of course, the diagram you have on the poster board is the body, anatomic position.

MR. KELBERG: Let me ask you, is that a recognized term of art, "The anatomic position"?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. "The anatomic position" is the body being erect, arms by the side with the palms and face facing to the front.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if I stand here and hold myself out in this fashion, have I taken the anatomic position (Demonstrating)?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Your arms should be a little bit closer to your body and your feet should be a little bit closer. That's better.

MR. KELBERG: And is this a recognized format to use to give relative positions of injuries that are identified on the body--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: --of a person on whom an autopsy is being performed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. And that is a position we give all our descriptions. We use that--keep that position in mind, especially when we give trajectories.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, there are two more items listed, 5 and 6, "Lateral" and "Medial." What do they mean?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: "Lateral" means away from the center of the body. "Medial" means towards the center of the body.

MR. KELBERG: I want to ask you about a couple of terms, four actually that are not on this exhibit, 343.

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough, is this a permanent marker?

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I want to write the term "Radial," r-a-d-I-a-l, on a portion of the diagram, I want to write the term "Ulnar" on another portion of the diagram, I want to write the term "Dorsal," d-o-r-s-a-l, if my spelling is accurate, on a third part of the diagram and I want to write a term "Ventral" on a fourth part of the diagram. Doctor, do these terms have meaning to you as a forensic pathologist?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Let's start with "Radial." What--is this another relative term of position?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What does it mean?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Radial comes from the--the origin is, if you stand in anatomical position--

DR. LAKSHMANAN: May I stand, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: How about if I stand in the anatomical position, and with the Court's permission, you step to the board or step to me actually and point out what it is (Demonstrating).

DR. LAKSHMANAN: If you see Mr. Kelberg in anatomical position, the arm has a bone called the humorous and the forearm has two bones, one is called the radius and one is called the ulnar. The radius is situated on the outer aspect of the forearm. And in anatomical position, it is the outer-most bone in this position. So radial anyway in this particular position would be lateral to the ulnar.

MR. KELBERG: And in lay terms, doctor, could we think of it in terms of "Radial" as on the thumb side of the hand when the hand is in the anatomic position?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And where is ulnar?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Ulnar is on the little finger side. It's on the other bone on the inner side of the forearm.

MR. KELBERG: Now, can you use me before I have to move to identify what "Dorsal" and "Ventral" mean?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: "Dorsal" is another term for the back and "Ventral" is another term for the front. And in this situation, ventral would be the palm aspect of the hand, dorsal would be the back of the hand.

MR. KELBERG: And in general, doctor, on exhibit 343, have I written the terms, if one uses the hand, thumb and little finger of the schematic of the human anatomy, written them in their approximate positions that they refer to as you've described. And if you need a--here, here's a marker. Why don't you draw a line to where you believe they represent.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: (The witness complies.)

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, may the record reflect that with that marker, Dr. Lakshmanan has drawn four lines each with an arrow at the end where it is in proximity to the appropriate word?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: May I have a moment with counsel?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. Your Honor, I have a series of exhibits to be marked. As exhibit 344, I have what appears to be a 13-Page autopsy protocol for Nicole Brown Simpson.

THE COURT: 344 will be protocol regarding Nicole Brown Simpson.

MR. KELBERG: Could that be 344-A, your Honor? I'm sorry, your Honor.

THE COURT: 344-A.

(Peo's 344-A for id = protocol for NSB)

MR. KELBERG: I have a form 15 for Nicole Brown Simpson as 344-B.

THE COURT: All right. So marked.

(Peo's 344-B for id = for 15 for NSB)

MR. KELBERG: A form 16 for Nicole Brown Simpson as C.

THE COURT: 344-C.

(Peo's 344-C for id = form 16 for NSB)

MR. KELBERG: A diagram form 20 for Nicole Brown Simpson as D.

(Peo's 344-D for id = for 20 for NSB)

MR. KELBERG: A diagram form 22 for Nicole Brown Simpson as E.

(Peo's 344-E for id = form 22 for NSB)

MR. KELBERG: A form 23 diagram for Nicole Brown Simpson as F.

(Peo's 344-F for id = form 23 diagram for NSB)

MR. KELBERG: A 20F form diagram for Nicole Brown Simpson as G.

(Peo's 344-G for id = 20F form diagram)

MR. KELBERG: A 20G diagram form for Nicole Brown Simpson as H.

(Peo's 344-H for id = 20G diagram form)

MR. KELBERG: A form 24 for Nicole Brown Simpson as I.

(Peo's 344-I for id = form 24)

MR. KELBERG: A 20H form diagram for Nicole Brown Simpson as J.

(Peo's 344-J for id = 20H form)

MR. KELBERG: A 20G form diagram for Nicole Brown Simpson as K.

THE COURT: I thought we had 20G as 344-H.

MR. KELBERG: There are two different 20G's, your Honor, I believe, and I'm not sure it's two 20G's. It may be two 20H's. Yes, it is two different form 20G's. They are completely different forms. They have the same form number. That will become clear in a moment. Let me just--

THE COURT: All right. I'll take your word for it.

MR. KELBERG: Let me for clarification, k appears to be what Dr. Lakshmanan previously identified as the diagram of the skull and internal area of the head, and the 20G which was our earlier sub part h appears to be a diagram of the neck and top of the head.

THE COURT: Noted.

(Peo's 344-K for id = form 20G)

MR. KELBERG: Then as form 29 for Nicole Brown Simpson would be L.

(Peo's 344-L for id = form 29 for NSB)

MR. KELBERG: And form 20H, this one appearing to be an outline of the skeleton. I think we had another 20H which is an outline of the human skull, but this is the skeleton of the entire body, this as exhibit M.

(Peo's 344-M for id = form 20H)

MR. KELBERG: And a form 20D as in dog, that--for Nicole Brown Simpson--I ask to be marked as exhibit O, subpart O.

THE COURT: How about n?

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry. N then.

(Peo's 344-N for id = from 20D for NSB)

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have what appears to be a two-page document entitled addendum report that is--has both typing and handwriting on it. May this be marked as exhibit 345?

THE COURT: All right. People's 345, two-page addendum.

MR. KELBERG: In fact, 345-A.

(Peo's 345-A for id = addendum report)

MR. KELBERG: And I--there may be a reason for that, your Honor, because I seem to have another two-page addendum report that is all typed and ask that that two-page document be exhibit 345-B.

THE COURT: Yes.

(Peo's 345-B for id = addendum report)

MR. KELBERG: And then I have, your Honor, a one-page form 14 entitled, "Microscopic description," that applies to Nicole Brown Simpson, and I ask that that be marked as 345-C.

THE COURT: So marked.

(Peo's 345-C for id = micro description)

MR. KELBERG: I have, your Honor, what appears to be two pages of toxicology reports for Nicole Brown Simpson, one dated June 21, `94, one dated August 31, `94. I would ask respectively that they be marked as 346-A and B.

THE COURT: So marked.

(Peo's 346-A and B for id = tox. Reports)

MR. KELBERG: I have a two-page form 13 odontology report dated September 9, 1994 for Nicole Brown Simpson. I ask that that be marked as 347-A.

THE COURT: Is that Dr. Vale's report?

MR. KELBERG: It is, your Honor.

(Peo's 347-A for id = odontology report)

MR. KELBERG: And I have a second form 13 odontology report dated September 14th, 1994 for Nicole Brown Simpson that I would ask to be marked as 347-B that also involves Dr. Vale.

(Peo's 347-B for id = odontology report)

MR. KELBERG: I have, your Honor, another form 13 entitled radiology consult dated November 14th of 1994. May that be 347-C?

THE COURT: 347-C.

(Peo's 347-C for id = radiology consult)

MR. KELBERG: And finally, your Honor, in this series, I have what appears to be a two-page typewritten document entitled, "Forensic laboratory analysis report," from Steven J. Dowell, which has a stamp on the second page at the bottom, "Received October 27, 1994." May that be marked as exhibit 347-D as in dog?

THE COURT: So marked.

(Peo's 347-D for id = lab report)

THE COURT: All right. Is that the complete series, Mr. Kelberg?

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have two more documents to mark.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. KELBERG: Which collectively I would ask to be marked as exhibit 348. One is the form 1 report that we previously saw a copy of, exhibit 298 I believe A for Nicole Brown Simpson, and two page 2 forms, form 2, two separate pages, both dated June 13th of 1994 for Nicole Brown Simpson. I ask that all three of these pages be collectively marked as exhibit 348.

(Peo's 348 = form 1 and 2)

THE COURT: All right.

MR. KELBERG: And that does complete the series of exhibits to be marked.

THE COURT: All right. We're going to take a 10-minute court reporter recess at this time. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, please remember all of my admonitions to you. This will be a short break to change court reporters, and we'll see you back here in about 10 minutes. All right. Doctor, you may step down.

(Recess.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. All parties are again present. The jury is not present.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, could we just have one more moment to set up the second easel?

THE COURT: Be my guest.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, may we approach?

THE COURT: Sure.

(A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Thank you, counsel. All right. Let's have the jurors, please.

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Let the record reflect we've been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. And, Mr. Kelberg, you may continue with your direct examination of Dr. Lakshmanan.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. I believe we have a stipulation with counsel regarding 11--actually 12 boards that have on the back of each board a designation starting with 0-B as in boy through 11-B as in boy. Will counsel stipulate that these 11 boards and their contents are true and accurate copies blown up of the materials which have previously been marked as exhibits 344-A through 348?

MR. SHAPIRO: So stipulated.

MR. KELBERG: And, your Honor, may they collectively be marked as simply exhibit 349 because they can be identified by the number on the back of each of the boards.

THE COURT: So marked.

(Peo's 349 for id = 12 boards)

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, I think you mentioned something earlier this afternoon about "One-to-one photographs." Did you use that term?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: What does that refer to?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is an enlargement of the photograph to depict the best reflection of anatomical region, a life size type photograph. And the way we do it in our office, with the assistance of the LAPD lab, as I told you earlier, we have a Coroner's blue card which is placed in any area which is being photographed in the Coroner's office, and the card is always incorporated in the field of photography. So what the process involves is taking a real size card and enlarging the negative to correspond to the size. I'm not a photographic expert, but basically what the end result is, you get a life size image off the region photograph and it's a best reflection of the anatomic region as Dr. Golden would have seen it on June 14th and as I saw it on June 13th.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, have you reviewed life-size photographs of nearly all of the Coroner's photographs that were taken of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Are there some photographs that were not blown up to life-size proportion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: Why is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because you--you have full-length views of the body, you'll need a six foot--pardon me--five feet, five inch length of paper to accommodate such a photograph.

MR. KELBERG: But in the photographic process you identified earlier, part of the process is to give up-close photographs of matters that are deemed of significance in the course of the autopsy and even before the autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And as to those photographs, have they been blown up to life size to give as accurate as possible a true reflection of the size and appearance of any such wound or injury or finding of significance?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: A two-dimensional view.

MR. KELBERG: Is there a limitation created from reviewing--even with life-size photographs, is there a limitation to that process in allowing you to with precision measure, for example, the injuries that were in fact on the body of Nicole Brown Simpson at the time of the autopsies?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: There are several limitations. One, as I mentioned, photographs are two-dimensional views. It's not a three-dimensional examination. And--number 1. No. 2, you really cannot approximate wounds. If the wounds have been photographed in the gaping state, you have them in the gaping state. You don't have the ability to approximate and measure them. The third issue is, if the wound is on a curvature of the body, on a curvature of the body and a photograph is not taken at right angles to the curvature, there's distortion involved. Fourthly, if the card is not next to the injury you're examining, your--that factor to be kept in mind because the measurement you do may not necessarily reflect the exact measurement. So there are limitations to the process, but it is the best reflection of the injuries of--in the anatomical area possible in this type of examination.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, short of exhuming a body, are you aware of any better process than the use of life-size photographs to evaluate the wounds as they appeared at the time of an autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Are there in fact limitations that would make exhumation of the body less of a reliable basis than the use of life-size photographs?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It will be less reliable because if you exhume a body, you're going to have changes of decomposition and distortion of the wounds anyway.

MR. KELBERG: And, doctor, I have an envelope that appears to be quite full with material. Is this basically the size of the type of photograph that you've looked at that would be described as one-to-one photographs?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. And, Mr. Kelberg, you want to estimate that for the record?

MR. KELBERG: By weight or number of photographs?

THE COURT: How about size of the photographs and the approximate number.

MR. KELBERG: The size of the envelope and the extension of the photograph would appear to make length 20 inches, make width of photograph 12 inches.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are you able to tell us the number of photographs of the body of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman which collectively were taken?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I think there were about 62 photographs of Ronald Goldman and I think about 32. I have the exact numbers in the file but--

MR. KELBERG: Some of those photographs however depict clothing in each case; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I'm--the photographic number I referred to is basically the initial photographs. There have been numerous photographs taken of the evidence, the tissues, the clothing which I'm not taking into the count.

MR. KELBERG: And those are the photographs that would be contained in your one-to-one set you reviewed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The autopsy photograph, the initial photographs which was taken by the Coroner's office.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, is that an adequate description for the Court?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, we're going to be looking at some photographs shortly. In looking at the photographs that we will be seeing, have some of those photographs been cropped, that is cut in compliance with an order from Judge Ito?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: As you looked at the photographs both in the size that they were originally before cropping--you did do that; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And in looking at the one-to-one's, have you looked at the whole photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have a series of documents that has the heading "Outline of injuries to Nicole Brown Simpson, 94-05136." May this be marked as exhibit 349?

THE COURT: I think it's 350.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry?

THE COURT: 350.

MR. KELBERG: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see where Mr. Lynch had marked the collective boards. Then 350.

(Peo's 350 for id = injuries to NSB)

MR. KELBERG: And as 351, a similar appearing set of documents, thicker in number I believe, entitled "Outline of injuries to Ronald Goldman 94-05135" as 351.

THE COURT: So marked.

(Peo's 351 for id = injuries to RG)

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, let me show you first exhibit 350, the series of documents on Nicole Brown Simpson. Are you familiar in general terms with this exhibit?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I am.

MR. KELBERG: What is this?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is an exhibit which I played an important part, and it was prepared principally to present my findings after reviewing the one is to one photographs, and I did it and also look at the autopsy description in the original protocol, also correlate these injury descriptions with diagrams in the original autopsy protocol. In addition, we also correlated the injuries in the addendum description; and following this, we also have a comment section and also an opinion from me whether it's a single edge or a double edge--single edge or--whether it's a single edge or double edge that you can not say. That comment section is also included in this chart. It's important that this chart was done to identify any--because when the original addendum was done, the measurement of the injuries was not done with one is to one photographs, the injuries that were not described earlier. And that is why the one is to one photographs were useful. And basically the chart has these headings, and once the chart is shown to you all, you'll understand the format as I just presented.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, would it be accurate to say that this document is to reflect your identification of every wound or injury that you found in looking at all of the autopsy photographs of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is it intended to identify areas within Dr. Golden's original autopsy report where any such wounds were described?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is it intended to identify any of those diagrams, those form number forms that we looked at earlier where any such injury or wound was marked on the form by Dr. Golden at the time of the autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Is it intended to identify areas of injury that Dr. Golden did not address, that is, did not include any reference to in his original protocol?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Or did not diagram in one or more of the forms used by Dr. Golden in the course of his autopsy?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, in this case, did Dr. Golden prepare something called an addendum report?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: How did that come about?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: He prepared the addendum because he felt that he had not addressed some of the injuries in the photographs which he had seen, but he had failed to describe in the original report. I also brought to his attention following my examination of the tissues on June 22nd that he had failed to describe a contusion of the brain which was in the hold jar which was not addressed in the original report. And based on these factors, Dr. Golden issued an addendum report under my direction.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, did you talk with Dr. Golden before any final addendum report was completed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: At that time, did you discuss with him a draft addendum that he may have prepared?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: Let me pull out one of these boards for just a moment. It has the number 7-B on the back from our exhibit of 349, your Honor.

MR. KELBERG: And, Mr. Fairtlough, is this set up in the appropriate location, this particular easel?

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, Mr. Fairtlough.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in looking at that blow-up that is right next to you, are you familiar with that document?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is that document?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is an addendum report on brown-Simpson, Nicole.

MR. KELBERG: Now, let me show you--if you'd take a seat again just momentarily--a document that is two pages and see if you're familiar with that addendum report.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is an addendum report with my instructions to him on how the addendum should be done because the original report had already been filed and we have a certain format which we follow in our office when we issue addendum report so that the corrections, additions and deletions should be done in a particular format so the person reading the addendum will understand where the additions, deletions and corrections apply.

MR. KELBERG: And I think if I could have that document back, I'm going to ask Mr. Fairtlough if he could put this, which is our exhibit 335-A, put that on the elmo.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: I'm not sure if you can focus that a little better perhaps by coming in a little bit.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in this document, we are seeing both typewritten information and what appears to be handwritten information; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Did you review this document in the form that we see it here?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: And when you reviewed it initially, did it have any handwriting on it?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: If Mr. Fairtlough can scan down now on the document. And I'm not sure how much further you can go and keep the top part of "Addendum report" still visible. Doctor, there appear to be--for example, under "Addendum opinion," there's a line running horizontally through those words, there's material with a wavy line and so forth. Can you give us some idea of how all this information came to be on this particular page?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Some of the handwriting is mine and some of them may be Golden's. But my handwriting is where if you see, "Page 6, item 5," I have written saying that, "Line 1 amended as originally"--I can't read the handwriting on this computer screen here. If you can give me the original document, I will be able to read it.

MR. KELBERG: All right. I'm not sure that we need to at this particular moment.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: So basically I was involved in instructing him how that addendum should be filed because it has to follow the format of our addendums so that people understand what the addendum is in correcting the original report.

MR. KELBERG: When you discussed this report with him, did you also discuss a draft report for Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: And when you say, "You instructed him," did you instruct him with respect to the actual content or the form or both? Tell us.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It was mainly--it was mainly the format, but I did bring up the point about the cerebral contusion which he had failed to address in the original report which was obviously present in the hold jar. So that information was discussed with him, which is not format, but rather content. And I did also discuss my opinion on the directions of the appearance of the wounds and Ron Goldman on the left and right side of the neck, and he seemed to--he also agreed with me at that point on the directions of the wounds on the neck.

MR. KELBERG: Let me put up now another one of the blow-ups, this is 8-B, and ask, doctor, is this the final product if you will following your discussion with Dr. Golden regarding the draft addendum for Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Can I--yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is the date that that was issued, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It was issued on July 1st, 1994.

MR. KELBERG: Can you approximate when you talked with Dr. Golden about the draft itself?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: If I recall, it was I think on June 30th.

MR. KELBERG: On the second page of the blow-up, you see at the bottom under Dr. Golden's name the letter "T" and a date 6-30-94. Does that have any significance to you in identifying the date you discussed the draft with Dr. Golden?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is that?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the day the report was transcribed.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, I want to flip the page one more time on this same blow-up with the form 14, microscopic description. Are you familiar with the circumstances under which this document came to be produced?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. As I told you, when the omission of the description of the cerebral contusion was discussed, the hold jar was retrieved. This is after Dr. Baden and I examined on June 22nd, we examined the hold jar and Dr. Golden looked at the contusion and he had submitted it for storage; and we submitted a microscopic section, and this is the microscopic examination report of the contusion of the brain which is not addressed in the original autopsy report, but addressed in the addendum.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are these addendum reports both with respect to Nicole Brown Simpson and with respect to Ronald Goldman reports that are generated in the ordinary course of business for the Coroner's office?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. We issue addendums. As I mentioned earlier, we try hard not to make mistakes. When mistakes are made, they are reviewed, corrected and an addendum is issued, those original reports stay and you also have that addendum report. There's nothing to hide. We made a mistake and we corrected it.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in your two wound summary charts, exhibits 350 and 351, have you attempted to identify where in any addendum for Nicole Brown Simpson on 350 and where on any addendum for Ronald Goldman on the wound chart 351, there was any reference in an addendum to any injury you observed in any of the autopsy photographs? You're staring at me like boy, that question makes no sense whatsoever. Let me try again.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Please.

MR. KELBERG: Basically, did you try and put on your wound charts an entry or reference where in each of the addendums, you could find a reference by Dr. Golden to some injury or wound or finding that you saw in a corresponding photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did. On these charts which we just discussed, yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, let me take this down and let me give you back all of the protocols and forms. Doctor, have you examined every report by Dr. Golden generated in the course of the Nicole Brown Simpson case?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: Have you examined all of the tissue that has been preserved as a result of the autopsy performed by Dr. Golden?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have, gross examination and microscopic exam.

MR. KELBERG: Have you examined all toxicology reports that have been generated as a result of the autopsy of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: Have you examined all consultation reports, which we'll get into in detail later, but for our present purposes, Dr. Vale's odontology report?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Dr. Boger's radiology report?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Mr. Dowell's, Steve Dowell's report of an examination?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Have you examined all evidence available to you from the autopsy records for the purposes of independently, if you can, forming an opinion as to the cause of death of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And independently forming an opinion similarly with respect to the same materials, obviously different content, but same general nature of materials, for Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what is your opinion to a reasonable medical certainty as to the cause of Nicole Brown Simpson's death?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: She died of multiple sharp force injuries.

MR. KELBERG: As a result of multiple sharp force injuries, what happened to her body to cause death?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: She had injury to major vascular structures which caused bleeding, and she died as a result of the hemorrhage and the effects of the hemorrhage from these injuries.

MR. KELBERG: As a lay term, she bled to death, would that be accurate?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That would be an accurate statement.

MR. KELBERG: With respect to Ronald Goldman, did you form an opinion as to the cause of death which you hold to a reasonable medical certainty?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is that opinion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: He also died of multiple sharp force injuries.

MR. KELBERG: Did you form an opinion from your review of all of these materials as to whether a single single-edged knife could have caused all of the sharp force injuries received by Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is your opinion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: My opinion is that a single-edged knife could have caused all the injuries in Miss Nicole Brown Simpson.

MR. KELBERG: And is that a single, that is one single-edged knife?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Can you approximate the dimensions of any such knife that could have caused all of the sharp force injuries received by Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It will be difficult to exactly pinpoint the exact measurements of a weapon. But you could have a--because you won't know the full diameter of the weapon from the base to the tip.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because you can not gauge the total measurement of the weapon from the base to the tip.

MR. KELBERG: Do you have an opinion as to the approximate minimum dimensions of any single single-edged knife which could have caused all of the sharp force injuries to Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I made an opinion for both the cases together.

MR. KELBERG: All right. Let me save that question until I ask you about Mr. Goldman's case. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not a single single-edged knife could have caused all of the sharp force injuries received by Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What is your opinion?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: A single-edged knife could have caused all the injuries of Ron Goldman.

MR. KELBERG: Did you form an opinion as to whether the same single-edged knife which caused--could have caused all of the sharp force injuries to Nicole Brown Simpson could also have caused all of the sharp force injuries to Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.

MR. KELBERG: What is your opinion in that regard?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The same single-edged knife could have caused the injuries on both the decedents.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, now let me revisit that question I asked you a moment ago. Do you have an opinion as to the approximate minimum dimensions that any such knife would have?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I can only give an approximate estimation because, as I told you, because of the variabilities of different class characteristics of weapons and injury patterns. My estimate, if somebody was looking for a knife, would be a six-inch long blade, single-edged cutting blade with a blunt edge up to one-eighth inch in width and about three-fourth inch wide. This is just a approximate estimation because of all the variabilities I discussed this afternoon. You--in knife wounds, it's best to get a weapon and then see whether the weapon matches all the wounds in the body or could have caused all the wounds in the body. And I've already given you my descriptions on it. So this is my rough estimate of wound damages as I just opined.

MR. KELBERG: Again, just for class characteristics, doctor, exhibit 333, and talking about the minimum length of the blade, in your opinion, approximately at least six inches in length?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And you talked about the thickness of the blade a minimum of an eighth of an inch?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. I said up to an eighth of an inch.

MR. KELBERG: Up to an eighth of an inch?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And the thickness of the blade at its thickest part, approximately how thick?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You mean the width of the blade.

MR. KELBERG: Width. Excuse me.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Three-quarters of an inch. And again, this is an approximate estimation. We normally like to have a weapon to compare to the wounds.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are you able to say that in fact, only one knife caused all of the sharp force injuries to Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What can you say on that issue?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically that a single-edged knife is capable of causing all the wounds in both the victims, but I can not exclude double-edged knife being used in some of the wounds. But a single-edged knife could have caused all the wounds.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, from that--let me just briefly go back to one of the exhibits. And Mr. Lynch is going to have to help me with the number. I'm not sure if it's 340. I think it is.

MR. LYNCH: 340.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, Mr. Lynch.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what you just said with respect to some of the wound appearances, is it accurate to say that from the appearance of the wound alone in some of these instances on these two cases, you could not distinguish whether it was inflicted by a single-edged knife blade or a double-edged knife blade?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: Is it accurate that some of the wounds that you observed could only have been inflicted by a single-edged knife?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: And all of the wounds could have been inflicted with a single-edged knife?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: Did you see any wound that could not have been inflicted by a single-edged knife when you looked at the two cases together?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Did you see any wound that told you there must in fact have been at least a second knife?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: And is it all based upon the kinds of things you talked about with respect to this chart, 340?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, in the course of this review that you made, you've already identified a number of mistakes that in your opinion were made by Dr. Golden; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And in the course of your complete review, did you find that Dr. Golden made a lot of mistakes?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I'd say he made mistakes. I don't want to use the word "A lot of mistakes."

MR. KELBERG: Did you find--well, let me ask you in general terms, what kind of mistakes, if you can characterize them, did you find that Dr. Golden made?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The mistakes were, as I told you, he missed a brain contusion on Miss Nicole--he failed to recall the brain contusion on Nicole Brown Simpson on--he also failed to describe the injury to the right thyroid cornu when he described the laryngeal structures of Nicole Brown Simpson. He made some dictating mistakes when he dictated the measurement of the wound from the diagram when he dictated the original description. These were some of the mistakes on Nicole. We are going to go into detail on the charts I've discussed. Ron Goldman, the mistakes were errors where he failed to describe some wounds which were addressed in the addendum after looking at the photographs. He also had some injuries which were diagrammed, two of them which we could not see in the photograph. So basically there were some injuries in both the victims which were not addressed in the original protocol which were addressed in the addendum, and in my detail review in the last few weeks, I found some other injuries which--which needed to be addressed which were not addressed in either the original protocol or the addendum. Taking in total--taking all the facts together, I would say there was several mistakes in both cases, but I won't say a lot of mistakes, but there are mistakes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, it took you a long time to give that answer. Doesn't that indicate to you that he made a lot of mistakes?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: If you want to phrase it that way, yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in fact, have you attempted to identify every mistake with respect to the most minor to the most serious?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct. And as I said earlier to this jury and everybody who is watching this trial, I'm here to tell the truth as it is and present the Coroner's findings and discuss the cause and manner of death and the--and interpretation of the injuries.

MR. KELBERG: So, doctor, if we use as an example a failure of Dr. Golden to identify an injury in the protocol, if we call that a mistake, and we say that his failure to diagram it on a form that is available, that's also a mistake, and if in fact he didn't address it in the addendum report that you've identified and we consider that a mistake, out of that one injury, we would have three mistakes; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, using that type of criteria, did you in fact find that Dr. Golden made upwards of 30 or more mistakes?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I didn't count them. That would be a fair statement.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, Dr. Golden is a friend and colleague of yours; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Have you pulled any punches in trying to identify mistakes?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Have you evaluated to the best of your expertise the significance if any of each mistake as it causes you to evaluate the issue of cause of death?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have.

MR. KELBERG: Manner of death?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have.

MR. KELBERG: Whether one knife caused all of these sharp force injuries?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have.

MR. KELBERG: Whether one person murdered these two human beings?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have.

MR. KELBERG: On the amount of time these two people lived from the times the first injuries were inflicted on each?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have.

MR. KELBERG: On the issue of how much blood flowed from any particular wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have.

MR. KELBERG: On the issue of the time of death, trying to estimate a specific or a range for time of death?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have.

MR. KELBERG: On the source or sources for any blunt force trauma injury that was identified from your photographic review?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have.

MR. KELBERG: Did you find in your opinion that any of these mistakes had any significance to you in being able to form opinions on each of those issues?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. No foundation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: None.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, when we go through bit by bit and photograph by photograph, I'll ask you to spell it out why it is you feel that, taking into account all of these mistakes, not one of them in your opinion was significant?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct, for the issues we discussed.

MR. KELBERG: By the way--by the way, doctor, how about collectively? Setting aside just any one, let's take them all together, significant to you on any of the issues I identified?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, at this time, I have some photographs to be marked for identification, a single board to start with. I'm going to ask if I could to have Mr. Lynch help me with some of the oversized boards that we'll be using, and I think Mr. Fairtlough is going to handle the wound chart for Nicole Brown Simpson on the elmo.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: And, Mr. Kelberg, would you show briefly to Mr. Shapiro the photo charts that you're going to use first?

MR. KELBERG: I'd be delighted, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Why don't you hold--let me ask Mr. Shapiro to come over there.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I would ask that this board of photographs be marked as I believe it's 352.

THE COURT: Interesting number. Never mind.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry, your Honor?

THE COURT: Never mind. Just a--

MR. KELBERG: I know there's--

(Peo's 352 for id = board of photos)

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I want to be certain that with my clumsiness, I don't inadvertently display them. If I could ask Mr. Lynch when he's done to help me put this board on the easel. Let me get on the other side.

(Brief pause.)

MR. KELBERG: And, doctor, I'm going to ask you, if you would, please, to step down, bring a pointer with you, if you would bring your wound charts on Nicole Brown Simpson. Did I take it back from you, doctor?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I think one of them is yours.

(The witness complies.)

MR. KELBERG: And, doctor, I'm going to ask that you keep your voice up, please, as we go through the testimony regarding these particular photographs. Doctor, first of all, do each of these photographs on this exhibit 352 fairly and accurately depict the condition of Nicole Brown Simpson at the time of the autopsy on June 14th, 1994?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Keep your voice up, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, yes, yes.

MR. KELBERG: Are all of these photographs which were in fact taken in the manner that you described earlier today in your testimony on June 14th, 1994?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, there is a description that has been written in in ink--not description, but a number, a B and some number that is underneath. It's kind of faint, but it will be used as a reference to which photographs we're looking at. Is that your understanding?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I want to begin with a photograph that's in the middle of the bottom row, photograph b-13. Is this one of the photographs you reviewed?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.

MR. KELBERG: Is there anything of significance that you see in this particular photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Before I discuss each photograph, I will discuss what is in the photograph, but I'd like to refer to the chart I prepared with reference to the exact measurements.

MR. KELBERG: If you would, please. And, doctor, do your best if you could. There's a microphone I believe that's been placed just about where you're standing. So if you'll keep your voice up, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: B-13 is a photograph of the facial region of Miss Simpson, and it depicts the fatal large stab/incise wound to the front of the neck. It starts from the left side of the neck and goes upwards to the right side extending to just below the ear, but you can't see it in this frontal view photograph. You can also see a portion of one of the stab wounds of the left side of the neck.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, did you, using a one-to-one photograph, measure the nature of the wound that we see, this stab/incise wound you've described in photograph b-13?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. The--as I told you earlier, this photograph only shows portions of the major stab/incise wound. In the one is to one photograph, the portion seen measured three and a half inches by one and a quarter inches, and this wound, as you can see, transects the thyroid hyoid area, which is the area between the voice box, which is the larynx. And above the voice box, there is a bone called the hyoid bone. It is a u-shaped bone which is situated above the voice box or the larynx, and that is called the thyroid hyoid area, between the hyoid bone and the voice box. And this wound transected that thyroid hyoid area. It also transected an area of the voice box call the epiglottis, which is like a protruding piece of tissue which closes off the air passage when you swallow fluid.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, may we approach?

THE COURT: Yes.

(The following proceedings were held at the bench:)

THE COURT: We are over at the sidebar. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: I pointed out to Marcia I think that artist Steve Werblen is drawing something during this period of time. I pointed it out to her. I don't think it's appropriate. I don't know if the bailiff is back there. Can we do something?

MS. CLARK: Let me indicate for the record, I did watch him when Johnnie pointed it out to me, and it looked clear to me he's looking down and drawing and looking up.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. KELBERG: My back is to him. I can't see.

THE COURT: All right. What we will do, we will have the sheriffs instruct him to stay when we recess, and I will check any drawing that he has.

MR. COCHRAN: That will be good.

(The following proceedings were held in open court:)

THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Kelberg.

MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry, doctor. Is there something further with respect to the transection I think you said of the epiglottis?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Anything further you wish to add on that point?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: And keep your voice up, please.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The wound also transects the vessels of the neck, which we'll discuss in photograph b-16 when we come to that, or do you want me to discuss it now?

MR. KELBERG: No. Actually I want to start with, is there some significance to you in the direction that the wound appears to have from that photograph?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Studying the description of the injuries plus the photograph, you see that this end has got a sharp end, and also when you see photograph b-16, you see the right end of that same wound is also sharp. So this wound is an incise/stab wound. That is, the knife started as an incised wound and then penetrated the neck area, and it travels from left to right going upwards. And if you look carefully at the other photograph, which you can see--which I have reviewed--it shows a bridge of tissue there, which would indicate that is the starting point of this wound. And if you review the description, the area of the--I mean the description of the structures, the structures in the deeper portion of the neck were injured more on the left side compared to the right side. So basically the wound was deeper on the left side, and as it went to the right side, it became shallower.

MR. KELBERG: What is the significance of any of that observation?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That would also support the opinion that the wound traveled--was inflicted in a left to right direction.

MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, in the photograph b-13, there appears to be an area that is, as you look at the photograph, to the right of the end of that or the beginning as you've testified of that stab/incise wound. What is that area?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the left side of the neck and that has a stab wound there (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I would like to invite your attention to photograph b-18, which is the left-most photo on the lower row of this exhibit 352. What is shown in this photo if it bears on what I just asked you?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: You can see the stab wound, the stab wound, the lowest of the four stab wounds on the neck. The left side of the neck has four stab wounds. They've been numbered 1 through 4 from superior or the top of the head to inferior, and I'm referring to stab wound no. 4 here, which is the one that you see in the photograph here (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: And here being photograph b-14?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, inviting your attention to b-18 and what appears to be on the left-most portion of the neck of Nicole Brown Simpson, what are we seeing there?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: I'm sorry. I didn't--

MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry. You want--if you'll give me the pointer for just a second. I'm referring to this area on the photograph (Indicating). What are we seeing there?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the left-most portion of this large incise/stab wound, which I already described.

MR. KELBERG: Is the appearance of that stab wound, that area of significance to you?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. This is what I wanted to bring up. It's a sharp pointed end, and so it started as an incised wound. But then you see a small bridge of tissue there where the penetration of the knife took place, where there's a penetrating component to this wound. It started as an incised wound, but there's a penetrating component. You can see a bridge there. And then the wound continues transecting the structures I already discussed. There's also injury to the vessels I told you in the neck.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what vessels are in that area of the neck?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Both sides, you have the carotid arteries on both sides and the jugular veins, and the carotid artery was transected on both sides.

MR. KELBERG: What does "Transect" mean?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is, it was literally divided in two pieces.

MR. KELBERG: What is the effect of transecting a carotid artery?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Massive bleeding.

MR. KELBERG: And what will be the reaction of the body to a transection of either the left or right side carotid artery?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Bleeding and you could have a sudden loss of supply of one side of the front of the brain. You could have seizures, and then ultimately you could die because of the rapid bleeding from this large vessel.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, the jugular vein, left or right side, will produce what kind of body reaction if transected?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That can cause bleeding. Sometimes jugular vein transection can result in air being sucked in to the vein and causing air embolism. But the principal usual effect of cutting of any vessel is bleeding.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, inviting your attention to b-8--b-16--excuse me--does this give a fuller depiction of the depth of that major stab/incise wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. This is the thyroid hyoid--I'm talking about b-16 now--you can see the thyroid hyoid area transected. And if you look behind the larynx, the stab wound is also--the incise/stab wound is also passed through the hypopharynx of the pharynx, that is the structure behind the larynx. And you also have evidence that the sharp force injury has caused injury to the cervical spine. This is the spine you're seeing here in this photograph right here (Indicating).

MR. KELBERG: In photograph b-16. And you're pointing to approximately the middle portion of the wound itself; is that correct?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor--I'm sorry.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: And then what you see here as pale structures is the carotid jugular vein area. In the neck, the jugular vein is on the outer side of the carotid artery, and they both are in a sheet called the carotid sheet. It's a covering around those structures there. So if you read the description of the autopsy report, the left and right carotid arteries both were transected. The left jugular vein was almost transected. There was only a bit of the vein left in the back. But on the right side, the jugular vein was only--had a quarter-inch cut. And this is significant because this also would go along with the opinion that the wound was deeper on the left side and shallower on the right side because the vein was only partially cut. As I told you, the vein is on the outside of the artery. So that would also support that opinion that the wound is shallower on the right side compared to the left side, which again go with my opinion that the wound was from left to right going upward to below the ear.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Kelberg, would you wind it up?

MR. KELBERG: All right. Could I just have a couple more questions?

THE COURT: No. I'm just giving you--

MR. KELBERG: Warning.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, inviting your attention again to b-16, did you examine the what I'll call margins of this major incise/stab wound as well as its depiction in b-13 as well as its depiction in b-18?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: What are the margins?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: The margins don't show any--margins are the borders of this large wound, the borders, and they do not show any additional cuts.

MR. KELBERG: Is that of significance to you?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is of significance to me because that means there was no resistance whatsoever when that wound was being inflicted.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what would you expect a person who was about to receive that kind of wound to do if the person was physically capable of doing anything?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in your experience, have you studied how people react to threats of incised stab wounds?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, given the absence of cuts around the margin--I'm sorry. Withdraw that question. Assuming that Nicole Brown Simpson had the capacity, physical capacity to try and avoid that major stab/incise wound being inflicted, what would you expect her to try and do?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if there were cuts along the margin, what if any significance would it have to you in identifying what if anything Nicole Brown Simpson had done before or during the infliction of that wound?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Compound, calls for speculation, the latter part.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. KELBERG: You may answer the question, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: If you have additional cuts, that would support that there was some struggle involved. There was some movement of the neck and head involved. So it was not a clean-cut wound as I see it here.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if Nicole Brown Simpson was unconscious at the time that that major stab/incise wound was inflicted, would that be consistent with your identification of no cuts around the margin of that stab/incise wound?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Improper hypothetical.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. KELBERG: You may answer the question, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: That would go along with the findings of no additional cuts, single major incise/stab wound which runs from the left to the right, deeper on the left, shallower on the right opinion I have given.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, did you form an opinion after all of the material, all of the photographs as to when in the relationship of the receipt of all of the injuries that Nicole Brown Simpson received that this major stab/incise wound was inflicted?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yeah. Based on all the crime scene photographs which I had opportunity to see, based on the blood flow on the ground, based on the lack of any blood on the back of the left hand, my opinion is that Miss Brown was on the ground face down when this wound was inflicted. My opinion is that the head was extended backwards and the knife was used to cause this incise/stab wound from the left to the right.

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if you can--if I can slide over here for a moment and if you could use me and my head and hair, would you demonstrate what is your opinion as to the manner in which that last major incised stab wound was inflicted?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Improper demonstration.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. SHAPIRO: No foundation.

MR. KELBERG: You may do that, doctor.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Assuming that you are face down on the ground and this ruler is my weapon, I would expect the head to be hyperextended this way and start an incision this way from the right side of the neck, run in a horizontal manner and go upwards towards the ear with this part being the deeper portion and this part being the shallower portion (Demonstrating). And the blood flow pattern on the ground which I saw in the crime scene photographs, the lack of additional cuts, the deeper wound on the left side compared to the shallower wound on the right side would support this opinion.

MR. KELBERG: And a six-inch long knife blade would be consistent with doing that kind of wound?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: It could be capable of doing this wound.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, is this a--

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: May I just take this down?

THE COURT: Please.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take our recess for the evening. Please remember all of my admonitions to you; do not discuss this case amongst yourselves, do not form any opinions about this case, do not allow anybody to communicate with you, do not conduct any deliberations until the matter has been submitted to you. All right. As far as the jury is concerned, we'll stand in recess until 9:00 A.M. tomorrow morning. Mr. Werblen, would you stay just a moment, please.

MR. WERBLEN: Certainly.

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Doctor, you can step down. And you're ordered to return tomorrow morning 8:30.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Thank you. Thank you, counsel. We'll stand in recess.

(At 5:50 P.M., an adjournment was taken until, Wednesday, June 7, 1995, 9:00 A.M.)

SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

The People of the State of California,)

Plaintiff,)

Vs.) no. Ba097211)

Orenthal James Simpson,)

Defendant.)

Reporter's transcript of proceedings Tuesday, June 6, 1995

Volume 161 pages 30497 through 30824, inclusive

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APPEARANCES:

Janet M. Moxham, CSR #4588 Christine M. Olson, CSR #2378 official reporters

FOR THE PEOPLE: Gil Garcetti, District Attorney by: Marcia R. Clark, William W. Hodgman, Christopher A. Darden, Cheri A. Lewis, Rockne P. Harmon, George W. Clarke, Scott M. Gordon Lydia C. Bodin, Hank M. Goldberg, Alan Yochelson and Darrell S. Mavis, Brian R. Kelberg, and Kenneth E. Lynch, Deputies 18-000 Criminal Courts Building 210 West Temple Street Los Angeles, California 90012

FOR THE DEFENDANT: Robert L. Shapiro, Esquire Sara L. Caplan, Esquire 2121 Avenue of the Stars 19th floor Los Angeles, California 90067 Johnnie L. Cochran, Jr., Esquire by: Carl E. Douglas, Esquire Shawn Snider Chapman, Esquire 4929 Wilshire Boulevard Suite 1010 Los Angeles, California 90010 Gerald F. Uelmen, Esquire Robert Kardashian, Esquire Alan Dershowitz, Esquire F. Lee Bailey, Esquire Barry Scheck, Esquire Peter Neufeld, Esquire Robert D. Blasier, Esquire William C. Thompson, Esquire

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I N D E X

Index for volume 161 pages 30497 - 30824

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Day date session page vol.

Tuesday June 6, 1995 A.M. 30473 161 P.M. 30629 161

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PROCEEDINGS

Motion re media viewing of 30497 161 autopsy photographs

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LEGEND: Ms. Clark-mc Mr. Hodgman-h Mr. Darden d Mr. Kahn-k Mr. Goldberg-gb Mr. Gordon-g Mr. Shapiro-s Mr. Cochran-c Mr. Douglas-cd Mr. Bailey-b Mr. Uelmen-u Mr. Scheck-bs Mr. Neufeld-n

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CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES

PEOPLE'S witnesses direct cross redirect recross vol.

Sathyavagiswaran, Lakshmanan 161 (Resumed) 30519Bk (Resumed) 30631Bk

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ALPHABETICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES

WITNESSES direct cross redirect recross vol.

Sathyavagiswaran, Lakshmanan 161 (Resumed) 30519Bk (Resumed) 30631Bk

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EXHIBITS

PEOPLE'S for in exhibit identification evidence page vol. Page vol.

299 - photograph of 30519 161 a weighing scale in the Coroner's office

300 - Coroner's photo 30520 161 of a counter with two individuals

301 - Coroner's photo 30522 161 of a rack with identification cards of the decedents

302 - Coroner's photo 30524 161 of a room where photographs are taken

303 - Coroner's photo 30526 161 of decedent processing room

304 - Coroner's photo 30528 161

304-A - Coroner's photo 30534 161 fingernail kit

304-B - Coroner's photo 30534 161 hair kit

305 - Coroner's photo 30538 161 of 4 Coroner envelopes

306 - Coroner's photo 30546 161 of the back of 4 Coroner envelopes with tape

307 - Coroner's photo 30548 161 of envelope labeled "Decedent's hair kit"

308 - Coroner's photo 30552 161 of back of envelope labeled "Decedent's hair kit"

309 - Coroner's photo 30553 161 an envelope labeled "Hair kit collection"

310 - Coroner's photo 30555 161 an back of envelope labeled "Hair kit collection"

311 - Coroner's photo 30556 161 of nail clippings, front of an envelope and a blue card

312 - Coroner's photo 30559 161 of a close-up view of nail clippings and a blue card

313 - Coroner's photo 30562 161 of area where drop box is located

314 - Coroner's photo 30565 161 of a close-up view of the drop box

315 - Coroner's photo 30567 161

316 - Coroner's photo 30580 161

317 - Coroner's photo 30581 161 of the outside of the crypt spaces with locked doors in the autopsy room

318 - Coroner's photo 30582 161 of area where Coroner's photos are taken

319 - Coroner's photo 30592 161 of area of enclosed crypts with a portable x-ray machine

320 - Coroner's photo 30598 161 of the drying rack

321 - Coroner's photo 30612 161 of a sign at the Department of Coroner

322 - Coroner's photo 30620 161 of the main autopsy room

323 - Coroner's photo 30625 161 of a chalkboard in the main autopsy room

324 - Coroner's photo 30631 161 of an autopsy instrument tray

325 - Coroner's photo 30647 161 of specimen jars

326 - Coroner's photo 30649 161 of Department of Coroner label

327 - Coroner's photo 30656 161 a test-tube label

328 - Coroner's photo 30658 161 of shelves with clothing of various decedents

329 - Coroner's photo 30660 161 of freezers and refrigerators for storing serological and blood samples

330-A thru 330-O - 30664 161 autopsy forms

331 - chart 30660 161 entitled "Correlation between knife and wound dimensions - single-edged knife"

332 - knife described as 30699 161 Grand Chief Sabatier

333 - knife described as 30699 161 Forschner 810-7 with sheath

333-A - photograph of 30714 161 a knife with red markings

334 - knife described as 30700 161 Forschner no. 405-6

335 - knife described as 30700 161 Black Panther Solingen with sheath

336 - chart 30704 161 entitled "Correlation Between Wound Dimensions and Class Characteristics of Suspect Weapon"

337 - photograph of 30725 161 page from book by Spitz and Fisher

338 - photograph of 30728 161 side-by-side wounds (Computer printout)

339 - photograph of 30730 161 side-by-side wounds with an individual's finger (Computer printout)

340 - chart 30741 161 entitled "Wound characteristics and possible sources"

341 - chart 30749 161 entitled "Blunt force trauma"

342 - chart 30760 161 entitled "Terminology describing when injuries were received"

343 - chart 30764 161 entitled "Anatomical terms"

344-A thru 344-N - 30770/73 161 autopsy protocol

345-A thru 345-C - 30773/74 161 addendum autopsy reports re Nicole Brown Simpson

346-A and 346-B - 30774 161 toxicology reports--re Nicole Brown Simpson

347-A thru 347-D - 30775/76 161 odontology reports--re Nicole Brown Simpson

348-A - 3-Page document 30776 161 radiology consult--re Nicole Brown Simpson

349 - 12 boards 30781 161 0 through 11 "Autopsy records"

350 - multiple-page 30786 161 document entitled "Outline of injuries to Nicole Brown Simpson - 94-01536

351 - multiple-page 30786 161 document entitled "Outline of injuries to Ronald Goldman - 94-01535

352 - chart with 30807 161 photographs entitled "Sharp force injuries and blunt force trauma to head, face and neck of Ms. Brown"