Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge
APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)
(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)
(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)
(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)
THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. Mr. Simpson is again present before the Court with his counsel, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Cochran, Mr. Kardashian, Mr. Blasier. The People are represented by Mr. Darden and Mr. Kelberg and Mr. Lynch. The jury is not present. Counsel, anything we need to take up before we invite the jurors to join us?
MR. COCHRAN: Yes, your Honor. One matter, if the Court pleases. Good morning, your Honor.
THE COURT: Good morning, Mr. Cochran.
MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor will recall, and we had previously filed a motion regarding the jury and whether or not certain jurors were targeted. I think that given the recent circumstances we would like to have that motion set for hearing, and I wanted to ask the Court to set it as soon as possible, at least let's talk about some dates, given our upcoming statement.
THE COURT: How about the afternoon of June 16th?
MR. COCHRAN: Umm, your Honor, that might--may I confer just a second, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I was going to suggest we would like to have the motion heard absolutely as soon as possible. If we are to be dark on Monday, if the Coroner is still on the stand, we would be willing to do it as early as the 12th, and I think Mr. Dershowitz will be coming out also for that motion, so we would like the earliest possible date next week. And we understand with our increased schedule it will be tough. We don't want to set it of course at five o'clock.
THE COURT: That is why I'm suggesting the afternoon of June 16th.
MR. COCHRAN: We want to do it as soon as possible. If something brakes loose earlier and we get an afternoon, will the Court consider that?
THE COURT: I will consider that certainly.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. So we need Mr. Dershowitz time to get here.
THE COURT: If we schedule it for the 16th, but you have to understand I have a 1026 hearing also set for that afternoon.
MR. COCHRAN: Yes, I understand. You have other cases, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, I do.
MR. COCHRAN: I used to also, your Honor. The 16th, and perhaps we can move it up.
THE COURT: Mr. Darden, any comment on that?
MR. DARDEN: (Shakes head from side to side.)
THE COURT: Miss Sager, good morning.
MS. SAGER: Good morning.
THE COURT: I apologize for taking up the Court's time with what may or may not be an issue, but was unable to find out precisely what the Court was intending to do with respect to the introduction and viewing of the autopsy photos. I understand that that procedure may occur today and we were hearing from individuals through the Prosecution's office that the photos will not be shown to the spectators in the courtroom and may or may not be made available for anyone to see. And obviously that was of great concern to my clients who understandably feel that they have a right to see information that is being introduced into evidence and that it is critical to them in being able to accurately report on what the witnesses are testifying about.
THE COURT: But don't you already have access to the complete Coroner's protocol, the addenda, all the charts and all the descriptions? I mean, don't you already have that?
MS. SAGER: We asked for and received, as your Honor knows, a copy of the Coroner's records, but not the photographs, were not asked for at the time the public records act request was made, because we were not seeking to simply view photographs for any kind of prurient interest, but there is an interest in seeing photographs that the Court has determined should be introduced or may be introduced as evidence before the jury, because they do have some particular relevance in proving a portion of the Prosecution's case. So while my clients were more than willing to limit their requests for the Coroner's records to not include photographs because they want simply to look at them for the sake of looking at them, they are interested in viewing photographs that the Prosecution has decided and the Court has acquiesced in that their arguments are necessary for them to prove their case to the jury, and those are the photographs only the ones that are being introduced into evidence, that are being shown to witnesses for testimony that the media feel that they have a right, and indeed it is necessary for them to see in order to accurately report on what the witnesses are testifying about and the jury is seeing.
THE COURT: Miss Sager, the difficulty that I have with this, is that I have to also take into consideration the feelings of the victim's families, and what little dignity is left that we accord to the victims themselves, and to display them publicly in such a manner is highly distasteful to me personally.
MS. SAGER: And I can understand that, your Honor, and we are not asking for the opportunity to copy or reproduce or broadcast or otherwise show the photographs publicly. None of the clients I represent are asking for that. They are simply asking for an opportunity to view what the jury will see and must see, as I understand it, based on the Court's order in order for them to understand what the Prosecution's evidence is in this case and to make a fair and just determination. And while I certainly understand the reluctance of the victim's families to see the photos and would not--I mean they certainly can choose not to see the photos--and I understand the Court's reluctance in having the photos disseminated beyond the courtroom and would not ask the Court to do that, I do think that it is not only required as a matter of constitutional law, but is critical to the public's understanding of the case and of this Court's decision, that those photographs will be shown to the jury for the media to also see, or members of the public who are chosen to spectate in the courtroom, be also able to see the photographs, because that is critical to this Court's determination. Obviously the Court would not have made a ruling on their admissibility without having looked at the photographs, nor could anyone evaluating the Court's decision come to any conclusion about whether the jury should see the photographs, what impact that might have on the jury, whether the jury reaches a fair and just determination at the conclusion of these proceedings without seeing what the jury sees.
THE COURT: The only people who need to see it for that purpose are the Court of Appeal--would be the Court of Appeal.
MS. SAGER: Well, I disagree, your Honor. If that were the case, all proceedings would be closed and the Court of Appeal could simply determine whether or not a trial had reached a just result, but that is not what the Supreme Court has said. It said that the public has a right of access, and one of the reasons for that is so the public can feel that a fair result has been reached so that they can understand what the proceedings are all about and they can evaluate for themselves what the evidence is that the jury is seeing.
THE COURT: But to follow that line of argument, then I should also display all the photographs that the Prosecution has chosen not to offer and the photographs that I have dictated should not be presented to the jury.
MS. SAGER: No, your Honor. I think there is an easy distinction to make there because those photographs are something the jury will never see. The jury will never make a determination as to guilt or innocence based on material that is not before them. And while things that the Court has excluded may wind up being issues in the Court of Appeal or become part of the record in that, the fact that we are not asking to see photographs that the Court has excluded I don't think changes the public's right to see evidence that is actually introduced. And I would remind the Court that when this issue arose last summer in the preliminary hearing and we asked to see certain crime scene photos, and I don't think the autopsy photos were even introduced, but crime scenes photos were, the Court and the Prosecution both took the same position, that there is a distinction when things are introduced as evidence at trial, it becomes a totally different issue and at that point there is a public right of access that overcomes any interest in privacy or concerns that the Court had at that time about allowing the press to even view the photographs. And the Court explicitly said in its order at that time that the photographs--that the Court then said that the press was not able to view--
THE COURT: Excuse me a second. Miss Sager.
MS. SAGER: --that the photographs that the press at that time was not permitted to view would become public and public for them to see and the public to see at the time they were introduced into evidence before the--
THE COURT: How would you reply to this?
MS. SAGER: Well, your Honor, obviously the people that I represent would prefer that they be given contemporaneous access to that so they could see the photographs while the witnesses were testifying. I understand that there may be concerns that the victim's families who want to be present may not want them shown in a way that they would have to see them. They obviously could choose to avert their eyes or to not be present in the courtroom when the photos are being shown. And I understand that that issue has come up with respect to Mr. Simpson as well. The Court could make other arrangements for the viewing of the photos, but if they are not to be shown contemporaneously, which I think is important so that people reporting on the case have the information that the witness and the jury has, then I would ask that it be done at the earliest possible time after a particular photograph is introduced into evidence, and not simply wait until the end of the proceedings or the end of a witness' testimony.
THE COURT: Well, the problem is, though, procedure normally followed in criminal prosecutions is at the conclusion of the Prosecution's case they will offer into evidence the exhibits that they have marked for identification purposes. I think we perhaps have only, out of the 200 or so Prosecution exhibits that have been marked so far, I think only maybe five have been offered into evidence at this point, so by your definition then these will not be in evidence.
MS. SAGER: But they will be shown, as I understand it, to the jury.
THE COURT: That's correct.
MS. SAGER: And they will be shown to the witness, and anything that the jury is being shown I think the public has an equal right to see, because that is inarguably going to be part of what the jury considers when they make up their mind at the end of this case. And once the jury is shown the photo, as opposed to the Court reviewing them in camera or the parties seeing them in discovery, once the jury and the witnesses are seeing those photos, then I think the public and the press have a right to see them as well so that they can understand what the testimony is that is being given and what the jury is being told contemporaneously with those proceedings occurring.
THE COURT: Mr. Cochran, any comment on behalf of Mr. Simpson?
MR. COCHRAN: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you, Miss Sager.
MS. SAGER: Thank you, your Honor.
MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, the Defense is vehemently opposed to public or anyone else seeing those photographs. I spoke with Miss Clark. As we heard Miss Sager's motion, Miss Sager always argues eloquently, but in this instance I think you put your finger on it from the standpoint of the public's right to know in this matter. We argued this earlier, fashioned a compromise where the autopsy protocols were released. They have those already and there are diagrams and that seems to me to be entirely appropriate. For these photographs to be displayed publicly I think is offensive to the victims, offensive to the Defendant and offensive to families on both sides. It serves no purpose and I think it is entirely inappropriate. We feel very, very strongly about that and urge the Court--as I understand the Court has fashioned the Court's reasoning in allowing the photographs was because of the theory of the Prosecution to show certain aspects of this case. They can hear that, but to have these photographs shown to the public, to have these photographs become part of the public domain so they are going to be in these tabloid shows is outrageous. There has been enough of a circus atmosphere created in this case and I think this is one time both sides agree that we have to draw the line for the victims, for Mr. Simpson's family, for Mr. Simpson's children, for everyone. Enough is enough. The camera is here all the time with us and that is enough, your Honor, and I think based upon decency and the fact that it would just be outrageous to do that--and I think as it is we are worried about these pictures being--some tabloid magazine stealing the pictures or whatever and having them displayed now. The Court yourself has said these photographs are so disturbing, so disturbing the jurors may not even want to see them, but for the limited purpose you are allowing this, certainly it should not be part of the public domain, I think we all agree with that. And I would ask that only the photographs be set up in such a way that only the jurors are able to see them and put up that, taken down as soon as possible and we move on from this part of the case.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Mr. Cochran. Mr. Kelberg.
MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. Unfortunately, there is a difference sometimes between one's personal feelings of what should be done and one's sense of what the constitution may provide, which may not be the wisest thing, necessarily, but may be the law. And in talking with Ms. Clark, and she was my emissary in talking with Mr. Cochran, I share everyone's concern about the privacy rights of these families, the families that are here in court, the families that may not be here in court, but have an interest in these proceedings, and I speak on behalf of the Goldmans and the Browns and I join in Mr. Cochran's concerns for Mr. Simpson's family as well. These photographs have significant probative value from our perspective and must be shown to the jury. Does the constitution require that the public's right of access be absolutely equal to every aspect of information that is given the jury or is the public's right to know satisfied by the fact that we allow the press to sit in on these proceedings and hear everything that is going on, record whatever testimony they seek to record in their pads and get transcripts, and quote accurately, we hope, in their press releases, and then let the public find from that information what they seek to find. But if the public is merely a voyeur looking for the titillating aspect of autopsy photos, the public has no right to know and no right of access in my judgment. And on that basis, your Honor, I believe that if there is to be any so-called public access, unquote, that the access should be satisfied by the Court making available for inspection in a closed courtroom to representatives of the press, since obviously the public that apparently is clamoring for this case can't all fit in this courtroom, so obviously representatives of the press have to act as the eyes and ears to some degree of the public, even though the public can watch by the cameras that are here in the courtroom, and let representatives of the media view these boards at the completion, perhaps of the day, if any board is used, and obviously with no right to photograph, no right to photocopy, that the board remain sealed absent further order of the Court from viewing by anyone other than the lawyers in the case or the jurors. If the Court feels that there is any right of access, I believe that that will satisfy that right of access. Personally I am completely opposed to anyone other than these members of the jury seeing these photographs.
These photographs are powerful and we believe they are powerful evidence to prove guilt. But they are powerful in a sense that is much more important, I think, morally, when this Court has to decide whether these victims must be once again brought into the public eye in the worst possible way imaginable, by having their bodies viewed from photographs taken at the Los Angeles County Coroner's Office. So as much as personally I may be opposed to this, constitutionally there may be well be some right of access, but if there is, I believe this Court can limit it in the tightest fashion possible to having representatives, not every news media that wants to see it, representative news media have an opportunity to view the boards under what I would call controlled circumstances where we are certain that they have a chance to view them, adequate time to view them, but that nothing further can be done to these boards as far as photographing, copying, et cetera, and that they otherwise remain sealed. On that basis I will submit the matter, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, counsel.
MR. COCHRAN: If I might just be heard?
THE COURT: Briefly.
MR. COCHRAN: Thank you. The thing I would indicate--as you can see the People's position is very close to the position of the Defense, and the one thing--Mr. Kelberg was not here at the time that you fashioned this procedure by which the protocol was released with the diagrams and pretty much the entire thing, so the press has that already, and it seem to me that is sufficient, your Honor. So I would not even allow, even in a closed setting, the release. That is how these leaks and things occur and I think the Court knows that. So I think that again, I think the Court is on sound ground here. You have been reasonable in this regard. We have argued against any release of these photographs, and I think that--I think what you are going to find--I'm not here to argue against what Mr. Kelberg has said--but I just think that it would be inappropriate, even in a closed setting, to do that. I think that it has to do with the victims and the families of the victims and everyone who is in this. This is a very sensitive part of the case and I would ask the Court to take that into consideration.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, counsel.
MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, one other point very briefly?
THE COURT: Briefly.
MR. KELBERG: The Court is aware there will be two exhibits probably marked today, and certainly one of them, and another one will be marked tomorrow if we don't get to them today, which I will describe as wound charts that describe Dr. Lakshmanan's observations with respect to each of the photographs which are going to be viewed by the jury. Now, I believe that Dr. Lakshmanan's expertise permits him to accurately see what is in these photographs far better than any representative from the news media ever could by observing the actual photographs, and I believe that in fact we can satisfy Mr. Cochran's concerns, the Prosecution's concerns, the concerns of the family, by making available to the press today, should be very easily done because we have extra copies of these documents, these exhibits. And the best that the press is going to be able to do anyway is look at these photographs and try and write down descriptions. These documents will provide detailed descriptions of each injury that is seen in each photograph and will even help the press out by in the form of showing where there is a reference in the protocol, a reference in the diagram, a reference in the addendum to the particular injury. What more could they do? They just have to write the story. We give them all the information. There is nothing that the photographs will provide them that is not in either of these two charts and that I believe is better than they could ever hope to have. I'll submit the matter.
THE COURT: Thank, counsel.
MS. SAGER: Your Honor, can I just briefly respond?
THE COURT: Briefly.
MS. SAGER: Briefly. I just want to reiterate--
THE COURT: You don't need to reiterate anything. I've heard the argument.
MS. SAGER: I am we are not asking for display or copying outside of the courtroom, but I am not aware of any authority, and neither apparently has counsel cited any either, that permits effectively the sealing of exhibits because other information in the courtroom is good enough, they think, for the media, because documents are graphic or disturbing or horrible, as the Court has described them or because there are privacy interests of the families or concerns of the families. I am not aware of any authority that supports not permitting the public and press access to materials that are going on in a public trial in a public forum for any of those reasons. And instead the Supreme Court in every instance has said there is a constitutional right of access which extends to documents that are used and shown to the jury. And while I agree with all of the personal concerns of the parties and the Court, none of those I think have any constitutional grounds for denying the public and press access to materials that are shown to the jury. And I would urge the Court to fashion the narrowest possible order if there is any restrictions placed on the access, and I have suggested the narrowest possible order, that we are not asking for copies or reproductions or broadcasts, but simply an opportunity to see what the jury is seeing.
THE COURT: All right. I will think about it.
MS. SAGER: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Deputy Magnera, let's have the jurors, please.
MS. CLARK: Your Honor, did you want to address the issue of Mr. Simpson's presence during the testimony?
THE COURT: I had a conference with Mr. Kelberg and Mr. Cochran earlier today.
MS. CLARK: I will confer with Mr. Kelberg. Thank you.
THE COURT: I think we reached agreement as to how that might be addressed, should the occasion arise.
MS. CLARK: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
(Brief pause.)
THE COURT: Mrs. Robertson, are you ready?
THE CLERK: (Nods head up and down.)
(Brief pause.)
THE COURT: And counsel, while we are waiting, the bailiffs advise me that tomorrow one of our jurors has a medical appointment.
(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)
THE COURT: All right. Be seated, ladies and gentlemen. All right. Let the record reflect that we have been rejoined by all the remaining members of our jury panel. Mrs. Robertson, would you please draw the numbers of two alternates. The first for seat no. 2.
THE CLERK: Seat no. 2, juror 1492.
THE COURT: And for seat no. 10.
THE CLERK: Seat no. 10, juror 2179.
THE COURT: All right. Dr. Lakshmanan, would you resume the witness stand, please.
Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran, having been previously been sworn, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:
THE COURT: All right. Good morning, doctor.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Good morning, your Honor.
THE COURT: Doctor, you are reminded, sir, you are still under oath. Mr. Kelberg, you may continue with your direct. And let me ask, Mr. Bancroft, you are directed not to attempt to train the television camera on any photographic depiction of any of the victims or any of their body parts. Same direction to the still photographers.
MR. BANCROFT: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Kelberg, let's proceed.
MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. And good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. KELBERG
MR. KELBERG: Dr. Lakshmanan, when we were last in court on Friday, I had shown you a photograph that depicted a scale and the measuring device used to measure the heights and the scale to measure the weights of the decedents as they arrive at the Coroner's office. And we printed out that photograph, but I don't believe, your Honor, for the record, that I formally marked it. It is exhibit 299 for identification.
THE COURT: All right. So marked.
(Peo's 299 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: And your Honor, the Court may recall that at the completion of Friday's testimony, with the form 1's which have been marked 298-A and B, there was some identifying information on family addresses for the victims which by agreement with counsel could be whited out and the whited out documents substituted in their stead. And that is what Mr. Fairtlough has very competently done and I would ask that they be marked as they previously were, but in the whited out condition, 298-A and B.
THE COURT: All right. So ordered.
MR. KELBERG: With that, I will turn these back to your clerk.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, we were taking, in essence, a tour of the Coroner's office with respect to the procedures used once the bodies in this case of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman arrive. And we are waiting for our laser disk to arrive so we have to go to a somewhat more old-fashioned way of continuing the tour. You had stopped at the area where the bodies were weighed and measured. And now, your Honor, we have another photograph which I'm asking Mr. Fairtlough to place on the elmo, which when it is printed out, your Honor, I would ask to be marked as exhibit 300.
THE COURT: All right. People's 300.
(Peo's 300 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what is depicted in this particular photograph, exhibit 300?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the reception area in the same room where the weighing scale and measuring device were present. It is on the other side of the room.
MR. KELBERG: What is to be done at this location once the bodies have been weighed and measured?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: We usually--this is the area where the crypt space and body control cards are kept. That is, we have information on where the bodies are located in the department in the crypt space.
MR. KELBERG: Crypt spaces are specific locations for specific bodies?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, that's correct.
MR. KELBERG: And these two gentleman that appear in this photograph 300, are these people who are responsible for giving the assigned spaces?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: They are--they are the employees responsible at that time.
MR. KELBERG: Incidentally, doctor, when the investigator goes to the scene to take custody of the bodies, is the investigator given an individualized number that will be applied for each case?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. We start with the no. 1 for each year, and depending on the case number for that particular day, that is the case number assigned to a particular decedent, and the investigator puts a band on the body.
MR. KELBERG: The band is placed on the body at the scene where the body is taken?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And in this particular case was an individualized number given for the body of Nicole Brown Simpson?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What number was that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: 94-5136.
MR. KELBERG: 5136?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And the "94" refers to the year of 1994?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And was an individualized number given for the body of Mr. Goldman?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What number was that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: 94-5135.
MR. KELBERG: Again a tag placed around his ankle area?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Is there anything further that you need to describe from this particular photograph 300?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: And if I can exchange with Mr. Fairtlough another photograph that I ask the Court to mark when it is printed out as exhibit 301.
THE COURT: All right. People's 301.
(Peo's 301 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what are we looking at in this photograph?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is a rack where you have the location of all the cards with reference to all the decedents in the office on a particular day.
MR. KELBERG: When you say "Rack with all the cards," what are these cards to reflect?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: They are the body control cards and the tags which refer to crypt space a particular decedent is located in.
MR. KELBERG: Which crypt space, if you know, was assigned for the body of Nicole Brown Simpson?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I think it was no. 4. I will just--
MR. KELBERG: You have a series of materials in front of you that appear to be in two big binders. What are those materials, doctor?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: These are the case records of both the decedents as filed in the Coroner's Department.
MR. KELBERG: Is there a document you can refer to that will refresh your recollection as to the specific crypt assignment?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, and form 1 should show it.
MR. KELBERG: That would be our 298-A and B form that we were looking at?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Basically they had no. 3 and 4 assigned to them.
MR. KELBERG: Crypts 3 and 4?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And in fact is there some kind of impression, inked impression that is placed on the record that reflects the crypt assignment for each of the bodies?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Is there anything further in this photograph 301 that is of significance in the process of the handling of these bodies?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: I have another photograph which I'm handing to Mr. Fairtlough and ask, your Honor, that it be marked as exhibit 302.
THE COURT: All right. People's 302.
(Peo's 302 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: Doctor--incidentally, doctor, when you are going to speak, if you will be sure you turn this way toward the microphone. I know it will help. I know it is tough to look and speak at the same time. If you are sure to speak outward, it will be helpful to everybody. What are we looking in this photograph?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the area where every decedent is photographed as soon as they come to the Coroner's office so we have a picture of their appearance when initially brought to the Coroner's office.
MR. KELBERG: What is the purpose of taking a photograph of the body as the body initially arrives at the Coroner's office?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: So we have some information on the condition of the body. No. 2, also it is a kind of an identification type of photograph.
MR. KELBERG: In this photograph, doctor, is the camera that was--first of all, was there a camera on June 13th, 1994?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, there was.
MR. KELBERG: In this photograph is there a camera?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No camera present.
MR. KELBERG: Why is there no camera in this photograph?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because the camera had some problems because the photographs were getting jammed and we ordered a new camera now.
MR. KELBERG: So you are still waiting for that camera to come?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, were photographs taken of the bodies of Nicole Brown Simpson and Mr. Goldman when they arrived on June 13th, 1994?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Was there anything unusual about the pictures that were taken by the camera in place at that time?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: There was a malfunction of the camera and we had superimposition of the photographs of both the decedents, so they were not very useful.
MR. KELBERG: When you say "Superimposed," in other words, one exposure on top of another?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Partially and there was jamming in the camera film movement.
MR. KELBERG: You do have those pictures, whatever their condition may be? I'm not asking you to show them, but I just want to be sure do you have those pictures that were taken by that camera?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have copies of them.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is there anything else that takes place with respect to photography in this area that is shown in this particular photograph?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: I think we are on to the next photograph, which I believe, your Honor, is 303.
THE COURT: 303.
(Peo's 303 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: What are we looking at in this photograph, 303, doctor?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the area called the decedent processing room where fingerprints are performed, evidence is collected, and this is a portion of the room.
MR. KELBERG: What kind of evidence is collected in this particular area, besides having fingerprints taken?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Usually hair evidence is collected, fingernail clippings can be done, fingernail scrapings, et cetera.
MR. KELBERG: The hair that you are talking about comes from various areas of each decedent's body?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Whose responsibility is it to take those samples?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It could be the forensic attendant or the investigator or the criminalist who is doing the examination and collection of evidence.
MR. KELBERG: In the case of Ms. Brown Simpson, was a collection of reference hair sample taken?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: In the case of Mr. Goldman, was a reference sample of hair taken?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: With respect to fingernail scrapings and clippings, were representative samples taken from Nicole Brown Simpson?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Who had done all of these things, starting with the hair through the clippings and scrapings of Ms. Brown Simpson?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Miss Claudine Ratcliffe.
MR. KELBERG: She was the investigator?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Was a collection of scrapings and clippings from Mr. Goldman taken?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: Why not?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: An explanation was that the nails were too short to do clippings and they did not do any nail scrapings.
MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have another photograph to exchange with the one Mr. Fairtlough has up. And ask that it be marked as exhibit--I'm saved. I don't have to fumble any more. We have our--for the record, we have our laser disk back.
(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
MR. KELBERG: And it is no. 14, and again, your Honor, when this is printed out it will be exhibit 304, I believe.
THE COURT: Yes.
(Peo's 304 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: And I don't know if Mr. Fairtlough--can you zoom in with the laser disk or not?
MR. FAIRTLOUGH: No. I can zoom with the photo.
MR. KELBERG: I spoke too quickly, your Honor. I'm not technically oriented. I'm going to go back to the photograph to zoom in.
THE COURT: Back to the elmo?
MR. KELBERG: Back to the elmo.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. KELBERG: If Mr. Fairtlough could go to my left and down a bit--I'm sorry, the other direction. Sorry. You were back fine on the left. I want to focus in, if you would, please, on those two trays on the left side to begin with to see if we can read what is written there.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what are these two bins a part of?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: These are the bins which store the envelopes for obtaining fingernail kits.
MR. KELBERG: Have you in fact brought with you a sample of one of these fingernail kits?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have brought an opened sample and I will have an opened sample in the box there, but I can show the open sample, which is easier to--
MR. KELBERG: If you have a sample that we can use as an exhibit. Is it in your box?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Can I--
MR. KELBERG: Which box do you need?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I think the first one that you have there.
MR. KELBERG: The first one? All right. May I approach, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
(Brief pause.)
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I was right.
MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, for the record, Dr. Lakshmanan has handed me actually two sample kits, but I'm going to start with one which appears to be labeled "Fingernail kit" at the top, "Department of Coroner County of Los Angeles." May this kit and it contents--and on the back, by the way, for the record, it has a seal saying, "Warning: Sealed evidence, do not tamper." May this be marked as exhibit 304-A?
THE COURT: 304-A.
(Peo's 304-A for id = fingernail kit)
MR. KELBERG: May I approach again, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may. Either counsel may approach the witness without asking leave of the Court.
MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, would you, holding it up, tell us what it is, take us through the process of how that kind of kit is used.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Umm, the envelope itself has information which needs to be completed with reference to the case number, the name of the decedent and also you have information on what type of evidence has been collected from a particular person, so it has got a seal here. And when the evidence has been collected naturally the red seal is placed to secure the evidence which has been collected, and when you--shall I open the envelope?
MR. KELBERG: If you would, please, and for the record--
DR. LAKSHMANAN: And this is the envelope marked for fingernail kit and this envelope usually contains the fingernail scrapings also. And I will explain what it is.
MR. KELBERG: For the record, your Honor, Dr. Lakshmanan has broken the white seal on the back of the envelope and he appears to have removed--I can't see how many number of envelopes.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: There are about four envelopes here. One is for the right hand nail scrapings.
MR. KELBERG: And it is so labeled, doctor?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. And of course every envelope has the Coroner's case number.
MR. KELBERG: Is that the individualized number you identified previously with respect to each of the decedents?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Then we have for the right hand, fingernail scrapings, same number and process. Then we have for the left hand, fingernail clippings and left hand fingernail scrapings. And there is a difference in the content of the envelopes. The scraping envelope also have what's called a birch stick.
MR. KELBERG: What?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Birch stick, b-I-r-c-h, birch stick, which is used to scrape the nail bed after the clippings have been obtained.
MR. KELBERG: So this is a prepared kit that is available for someone like Miss Ratcliffe to take one out of the bin and with each decedent use that kit to collect scrapings and clippings?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct.
MR. KELBERG: And then what is someone like Miss Ratcliffe supposed to do with--let's start with scrapings are taken first?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. Usually they take the clippings first, usually use a scissor, because if you use a nail clipper sometimes the nail will fly, so you use a scissor and you cut the nail and after that you do the scrapings of the nail base.
MR. KELBERG: And then what does someone like Ms. Ratcliffe do as far as collecting that material?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: As I have to show you would be--open one of the envelopes. I show you the birch stick and there is a bindle of paper which is available inside each envelope.
MR. KELBERG: You hold that up higher for everybody to see, doctor.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: (Witness complies.) and the bindle is usually opened and the evidence is collected in such a manner that it falls on the bindle paper and then it is closed back and placed back in the envelope so this way the evidence is secured.
MR. KELBERG: Is Ms. Ratcliffe, or whoever is to do this, supposed to wear gloves of some sort when performing the procedure?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And then once there has been the collection made, what happens with these individual envelopes?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: They are sealed and then dropped off in the evidence drop box which is available in the same room.
MR. KELBERG: I think we have a picture of that come up momentarily. If I could have that exhibit back, 304-A. And now, your Honor, ask that this second kit that Dr. Lakshmanan handed me that has the word "Decedent's hair kit" and a similar-appearing seal, may this be marked collectively at 304-B, as in boy?
THE COURT: So marked.
(Peo's 304-B for id = hair kit)
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, would you basically take us through the same process you just did with the fingernail kit as to what this new exhibit is.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This again has a premarked--
MR. KELBERG: If you would hold it up.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: --premarked envelope for the particular evidence being collected. This is a decedent hair kit and inside this envelope--I'm breaking the seal for this envelope, and each of the envelopes has the Coroner's case number, the decedent's name and when we open the envelope, there are four other envelopes inside the main envelope. One is for facial hair and the facial hair envelope has separate bindles. Each of them marked for eyelash, eyebrow, beard and mustache, if it is a male. Then there is an envelope for head hair.
MR. KELBERG: Hold them up again, please, doctor.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Head hair. (Witness complies.) this is an envelope for chest hair, depending on what is collected, and arm hair, (Indicating).
MR. KELBERG: How is the hair collected from each of the areas from which hair will be collected?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically the hair is plucked with the root so that you have the root also available. Usually you collect anywhere up to a hundred hair--hundred hair samples from the head area and you collect hair from the front, back and sides and top.
MR. KELBERG: And how--how does one get the root out?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: You pluck them with--either you can use a tweezer or you can also just pluck it. You can easily get it out.
MR. KELBERG: Is the investigator expected to wear gloves for this procedure?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, what happens with the hairs once they have been collected?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This same process. The evidence is placed in the main envelope, sealed and dropped off in the drop box.
MR. KELBERG: If I could ask Mr. Fairtlough to take the photograph down for just a moment. Incidentally, your Honor, for the record, let me write on the back of the exhibit 304-A, that designation, and on the back of the hair kit, 304-B.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. KELBERG: And if I could have Mr. Fairtlough please put on the elmo the exhibit 304-A, and perhaps--I need to go to the eye doctor, but it looks a little out of focus to me.
THE COURT: It is slightly.
MR. KELBERG: Either that or I really need to go to the eye doctor.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is there information here that is supposed to be completed by the person collecting the scrapings and clippings?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And what, in essence, is to be done by someone like Ms. Ratcliffe with respect to this form?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: All the evidence, which is collected needs to be completed on the envelope, in addition to filling out the case number and the decedent's name.
MR. KELBERG: And I think just under the bold "Fingernail kit" there is a line where the decedent's name is to go?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And to the right of that--my eyesight is getting better--to the right of that is the Coroner's case number where it is to be placed?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. And also you have information which needs to be completed with reference to what was collected, yes and no, and also you need to fill out whether the evidence was collected at the scene or at the Forensic Science Center, which is the Coroner's office.
MR. KELBERG: And that is basically 1104 north mission road?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Okay.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: And then the investigator signs it.
MR. KELBERG: There also appears in what I displayed here, something underneath the area of "By" and "Date" and "Time," something "Received from evidence." What does that refer to?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I had mentioned earlier the evidence is dropped in the drop box. There is an evidence custodian for the office who retrieves the evidence from the drop box everyday and transports the evidence to the evidence room where the--all the evidence or all the cases are secured, and if anybody wants to retrieve the evidence, they go to the evidence custodian to get the evidence released to them.
MR. KELBERG: Let me ask Mr. Fairtlough, if he would, please, to put 304-B up so we can see what is the information to be completed on this particular kit.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in essence, is the procedure the same as you just identified?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: By the way, you see--I think we also saw it in the other one--"File," "DR number" and "Agency." What is that information to reflect?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically it refers to the law enforcement agency investigating a particular crime and they have a DR number.
MR. KELBERG: And in this particular case of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman that would be the Los Angeles Police Department?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And whatever their DR number would be?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: May I have just a moment with Mr. Fairtlough, your Honor?
(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, I have asked Mr. Fairtlough if he would put on the elmo another photograph which I will ask to be marked as exhibit 305.
(Peo's 305 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: And hopefully he will turn it--the other turning. Thank you, Mr. Fairtlough. And actually I would ask Mr. Fairtlough, if he would, please--Mr. Fairtlough, promised me that this was a very smooth procedure.
(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
MR. KELBERG: If we could zoom in on the lower package on the left and if we can focus that a little bit. Thank you.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, looking at this particular aspect of photograph, 305, are you familiar with what is shown here?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. This is the photograph of the original envelope used in collecting the fingernail evidence on Miss Brown Simpson.
MR. KELBERG: Now, with respect to the writing that appears in "Agency," "File/DR number," "Decedent's name," "Coroner's case number" and the check marks and then the either initials or signature "By" and the "Date and time," are you familiar with whose writing that is?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Whose is that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Claudine Ratcliffe.
MR. KELBERG: And is she expected to complete this information immediately after the collection of the particular material that is contained within this fingernail kit?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And in this particular case that time would be what, doctor?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: 1340 hours on June 13th.
MR. KELBERG: And that would be 1:40 in the afternoon?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: There also appears to be a check at "Forensic Science Center." Is that also cleated by Ms. Ratcliffe?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: To reflect where the sample was taken?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, as you look at this particular kit, do you see any check mark in either a yes or no box for the left and right hand fingernail scrapings?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: There is no check mark.
MR. KELBERG: Did you, on June 22nd, 1994, along with Dr. Baden, who is seated again in court with us, have an opportunity to review the contents of this particular envelope?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.
MR. KELBERG: When you reviewed the contents of this envelope, what, if anything, did you find inside the envelope?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: We had evidence of both nail scrapings and clippings on Miss Brown Simpson.
MR. KELBERG: And were the scrapings in individualized envelopes for left hand and right hand?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Were they sealed in the manner you would expect them to be sealed?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Does it appear, from what you have found, that Ms. Ratcliffe simply failed to check those two boxes on this particular form?
MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for a conclusion.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, did there appear to be anything out of the ordinary with respect to what you saw in the interior of that kit that would cause you to have believed that there was a mistake with respect to the collection itself that was inside that envelope, those two packages that are not marked on the front of the envelope?
MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, speculation.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, from your experience and your knowledge of the practices of your office, did you find anything out of the ordinary with respect to the contents of this fingernail kit?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: There was nothing out of the ordinary in the contents, but the envelope failed to demonstrate that fingernail clippings--fingernail scrapings had been collected.
MR. KELBERG: In your opinion was this a mistake on the part of Miss Ratcliffe not in marking the front of the envelope?
MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for a conclusion.
THE COURT: Overruled.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And doctor, does this mistake by Miss Ratcliffe have any significance to you on any of the issues that you have reviewed with respect to things like cause of death, et cetera?
MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, irrelevant, compound.
THE COURT: Overruled.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: None.
(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry, could we go back to the original photograph for just a moment further.
(Brief pause.)
MR. KELBERG: And the lower part of the envelope, please. This is again back to exhibit 305, the left hand bottom kit and the lower portion. All right.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, now, I would like Mr. Fairtlough to focus in on the part starting with "Evidence collected" and down to the bottom of the envelope. We've already covered the signature of Ms. Ratcliffe and now I want to go to the "Received in evidence room by." Do you recognize a signature in the "By" box or line of that entry?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I do.
MR. KELBERG: Whose signature is that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Mr. Steve Patino.
MR. KELBERG: Who is Mr. Patino?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: He was a student worker at the time in the evidence room.
MR. KELBERG: Keep your voice up, please, doctor.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: He was a student worker in the evidence room at that time.
MR. KELBERG: And what would his responsibilities be, if any, with respect to handling collected evidence such as this fingernail kit?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: He would retrieve it from the drop box and log it in the evidence room and also document this process in the evidence log sheet of the Coroner's office.
MR. KELBERG: We are going to see the drop box and so forth later. But is Mr. Patino expected, at the time that he collects this from the drop box, to make an entry on the kit itself to show he has obtained possession of it?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What time and date does this entry reflect?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It reflects June 15th, I think seven o'clock in the morning.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is there anything out of the ordinary of your regular custom and practice with respect to a kit being collected on the 13th at 1:40 in the afternoon, placed in the drop box, but not received by someone like Mr. Patino until the 15th?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: There is nothing out of the ordinary. Usually they pick up every morning and in this case they picked it up on the 15th. It seems to be received on the 15th.
MR. KELBERG: You will have to keep your voice up.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It has been received on the 15th.
MR. KELBERG: Okay. Now, that is a day and a half later. Is that unusual?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is not unusual.
MR. KELBERG: Underneath that "Received in" is another set of preprinted words, "Delivered to," "By," "Date" and "Time." What is that intended to refer to?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That--as I had mentioned earlier, the evidence custodian is the one who releases evidence from the Coroner's office. Everybody has to go there to collect any evidence. And in this particular situation that "Delivered to," is the name of the person whom this evidence was released to by Mr. Patino on the 24th and I think I read the name G, I think, I-n-d-e-s.
MR. KELBERG: Assume for the moment that is someone named de Grandis. Is that a Coroner employee?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: If we go to the next line, "By," do you recognize that signature?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is Mr. Patino.
MR. KELBERG: And then the entry for "Date and time" that appears next to that, was does that refer to?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the date and time the evidence was released from the Coroner's office.
MR. KELBERG: Which would be in this case?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: June 24, `94, at 9:30 in the morning.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, there appear to be two entries in that series of entries you just referred to. What, if anything, do those two refer to?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Those entries were not made at our office. Once the envelope is released I don't have any idea who entered those, but probably the LAPD.
MR. KELBERG: You did not--that is, your office did not retake or regain custody of this kit and its contents; is that correct, once it was released?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct.
MR. KELBERG: Now, if Mr. Fairtlough could move to the second photograph and focus in on the same area of that photograph that we were just focusing in on exhibit 305.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, does this appear to be the back side of the envelope, the fingernail kit, for Ms. Nicole Brown Simpson that you were just viewing in the previous photograph?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, may this be marked as I believe we are at exhibit 306, is it?
THE COURT: 306.
(Peo's 306 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, there appear to be kind of an American flag; we have a white, a red and a blue. Can you tell us which, if any, of those are Coroner materials?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The original white I already showed you. That is the seal which is broken when the envelope is opened. The red is a seal which is placed after the evidence is collected.
MR. KELBERG: Placed by whom, doctor?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: By the investigator when the envelope is sealed back.
MR. KELBERG: So in this case that would be Ms. Ratcliffe?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And is she expected to initial this in some fashion?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Do you see her initials somewhere?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I'm looking.
MR. KELBERG: You will have to speak up, doctor, so look first and speak up afterwards.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I don't see anything in the photograph.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor--
DR. LAKSHMANAN: There is an initial there.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, if you are going to be speak, it is going to be very helpful if you can speak into the be microphone, so look first.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: There is an initial on the tag there, but I'm not sure whether it is her initial or just on the right side. I don't see any initial here.
MR. KELBERG: But she is expected to initial it; is that correct?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor--and I think we are done with that particular photograph.
(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
MR. KELBERG: And I have asked Mr. Fairtlough to put another photograph on the board. On the elmo, excuse me.
(Brief pause.)
MR. KELBERG: And your Honor, may this be marked as exhibit 307?
THE COURT: Yes.
(Peo's 307 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are you familiar with what is shown in this particular photograph?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What is this?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the hair kit of Miss Brown Simpson, Nicole, which was collected on June 13th, `94.
MR. KELBERG: If Mr. Fairtlough could zoom in at the top portion. Fine. That is great.
MR. KELBERG: Again, do you recognize the handwriting or printing that appears in the areas with LAPD and a number and underneath that decedent's name and Coroner's case number?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Whose is that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The--this is the handwriting of Miss Claudine Ratcliffe.
MR. KELBERG: And there are now--mister--Mr. Fairtlough can raise the photograph so we see a little further down on it and stop in this area, (Indicating). Doctor, there appear to be boxes that have I believe "X's" on them. Do you see that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Who is expected to make those "X's" on this particular form?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Miss Ratcliffe.
MR. KELBERG: In this particular case what do those "X's" reflect?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That certain types of hair was collected.
MR. KELBERG: What types of hair were collected?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Head, facial and arm hair was collected.
MR. KELBERG: And the last entry that has no box collected I can't quite make out. Can you tell us what that would represent?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Chest hair.
MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor we drop down to just about the end of that white tape, there appears to be a signature and a date and a time. Do you recognize that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Whose signature?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Miss Claudine Ratcliffe.
MR. KELBERG: And again the time and date reflect what?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: June 13th, `94, 1340 hours, which is 1:40 in the afternoon.
MR. KELBERG: Approximately when this material was collected?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for speculation.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is she expected to put in the time approximately when this material was collected in these particular boxes?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Now, the white tape, does that have any significance to you? There is white and red that we see along the side here.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is not from our office. It is from the lab which was doing the examination of the evidence.
MR. KELBERG: It is not from the Coroner's office, though?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: All right. If we will drop to the bottom now, if perhaps Mr. Fairtlough could raise the document again.
MR. KELBERG: What are the entries that we are seeing here?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The similar entries which we saw on the other kit. Mr. Patino retrieved this evidence from the drop box on June 15th at seven o'clock in the morning.
MR. KELBERG: And then underneath that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: He delivered the evidence to the same person, Mr. Grandis, on June 24th at 9:30.
MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry. Keep your voice up, doctor.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Mr. Grandis on June 24th at 9:30 got the evidence from Mr. Patino.
MR. KELBERG: And the entries that appear below the ones you have just described are not made by anyone from the Coroner's office; is that correct?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct.
MR. KELBERG: I have another photograph that I will ask Mr. Fairtlough to please put on the elmo. And ask, your Honor, that this will be marked--I think we are up to 307.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: 308.
THE COURT: 308.
(Peo's 308 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, does this appear to be the back of the envelope that was just previously up on the screen regarding the hair kit of Nicole Brown Simpson?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And the white seal that is running hor--I'm sorry--vertically in the center top portion, is that a Coroner's seal?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What about the red seals that form an "X"? What are those?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Umm, those could be the--again our evidence--you see, this particular piece of evidence, where retrieved by Claudine, sealed, then again on the 22nd we again examined them with Dr. Baden and again resealed by us.
MR. KELBERG: Keep your voice up, please, doctor.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It was resealed by us.
MR. KELBERG: You resealed it, you and--I'm sorry--after you and Dr. Baden had reviewed the contents of this envelope?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: But all of the seals that we are looking at in the center, the white and the two red, are Los Angeles County Coroner's seals of the envelope; is that correct?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: I have another photograph that I will ask Mr. Fairtlough put to the elmo and ask that it be marked 309, your Honor.
THE COURT: 309.
(Peo's 309 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are you familiar with what is shown in this photograph?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. This is the evidence envelope reflecting the hair kit collection on Mr. Ron Goldman.
MR. KELBERG: And if Mr. Fairtlough can zoom in on the upper portion. Thank you.
MR. KELBERG: The entries that appear there for agency, DR number, decedent's name and Coroner's case number, do you recognize the writing?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Whose writing?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Claudine Ratcliffe.
MR. KELBERG: Again now if we drop down a little bit, there appear to be a series of boxes which are checked. What do those entries reflect?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Basically collection of hair from Mr. Ron Goldman; head hair, facial hair and arm hair were collected.
MR. KELBERG: And in this exhibit there is also a "No" box checked; is that correct?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: To reflect what?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Chest hair was not collected.
MR. KELBERG: And if Mr. Fairtlough could drop down a bit.
MR. KELBERG: Now, we are back at the "Evidence collected" portion of the document. Do you recognize the entries that appear there?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What do they reflect?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Miss Claudine Ratcliffe collected them at the Forensic Science Center June 13th, and at 1440 hours.
MR. KELBERG: And dropping down even further, there are some entries. Do you recognize who made those entries?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. It was received in the evidence room by Mr. Patino on June 15th, `94, at seven o'clock.
MR. KELBERG: Then even dropping down further, we have some more entries. What do they reflect?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The evidence was released to Mr. Grandis by Mr. Patino on June 24th, `94, at 9:30 in the morning.
MR. KELBERG: Again there are some entries underneath the ones you have just referred to. Were those made by your personnel?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
MR. KELBERG: And I have asked Mr. Fairtlough to put another photograph on the board or the elmo. I'm used to board. Sorry, your Honor. May this be marked as exhibit 310?
THE COURT: Yes, People's 310.
(Peo's 310 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are you familiar with what is shown in this photograph?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is just a sealed envelope, the reverse side.
MR. KELBERG: Reverse side of the envelope you were just looking at?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Please keep your voice up.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, basically your answers regarding this envelope, the white and the two red cross seals, be the same as your answers were for the back side of the earlier envelope?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, the Court may wish to cut the feed. I'm not sure that that is necessary, but out of an abundance of caution. I would ask, your Honor, that this photograph be marked--I think we are up to 311.
THE COURT: People's 311.
(Peo's 311 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: If Mr. Fairtlough could zoom in just a little bit so we could read the writing. Center it a little bit.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in photograph 311--actually if could you raise it just a little bit, Mr. Fairtlough, so that we can see that blue--the blue rectangular item in this photograph. Doctor, first of all, in general terms, what is that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the fingernail clippings which was taken on Miss Simpson which was opened by Dr. Baden and myself on June 22nd and this is a photograph to reflect the contents of the envelope.
MR. KELBERG: And I was asking actually I think, doctor, on what this blue rectangular item is that the arrow was by at the moment?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The blue rectangular is a measuring--is a card which we use whenever we take a photograph in the Coroner's office. It has got a built-in ruler and you inscribed the Coroner's case number and the date and the name of the photograph, who takes the photograph, and it is always placed in any Coroner's photograph.
MR. KELBERG: The numbers that we see both on the envelope and on the measuring card, 94-5136, is this the individualized number for the case of Nicole Brown Simpson?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And this type of blue measuring card is to be in every photograph that is taken as a part of any case that is being photographed?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, the measuring aspect of this card, what is it?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is in inches and the measure device usually has up to three inches.
MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor--if Mr. Fairtlough could move the arrow to my left and to the white piece of paper. And there appear to be a series of items on this white piece of paper. What are those items?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Right hand fingernail clippings from Miss Brown Simpson.
MR. KELBERG: Did you remove those clippings when they were in that bindle with the bindle having been in the envelope that is seen in this photograph?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: We just opened and saw it. We didn't handle it. We closed it back. I have minutes of the meeting what we exactly did.
MR. KELBERG: Is it in the course of this examination that you found that there were scraping envelopes collected?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. And I would like to refer to my minutes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Certainly.
(Brief pause.)
MR. KELBERG: Your Honor, while Dr. Lakshmanan is doing that, I'm asking Mr. Fairtlough to put another photograph up that I ask to be marked as 312.
THE COURT: All right.
(Peo's 312 for id = photograph)
(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have the minutes in front of me.
MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry, doctor, have you had a chance to review whatever you needed to?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And what does it refresh your memory about?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: These are the right hand fingernail clippings which we viewed.
MR. KELBERG: And now, in this photograph that has been marked as exhibit 312, what is shown in this photograph?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is a close-up photograph of the nail clippings.
MR. KELBERG: As you and Dr. Baden had an opportunity to examine them?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: I think we are done with that photograph and if we could go back to--
(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
MR. KELBERG: --I believe it is photograph 304 that we were looking at when we did a close-up of the tray with respect to fingernail kit.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, now inviting your attention, if Mr. Fairtlough could take the arrow to the top, the countertop of the area displayed here, doctor, do you see some items on the countertop that are used by someone like Ms. Ratcliffe with the bodies as the bodies are brought into this room?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. This is the fingerprint kit which is used to take fingerprints.
MR. KELBERG: And what kind of fingerprints would someone be expected to take from a body when the body arrives at the area that is shown in this photograph?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: We usually take all the fingers and also the palmprints.
MR. KELBERG: Did you find, doctor, once you reviewed this case, that there had been a mistake made with respect to any of the fingerprinting or palmprinting of either of the decedents, Nicole Brown Simpson or Mr. Goldman?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What mistake or mistakes did you find were made?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: They took the--in Nicole Brown Simpson apparently only the right hand palmprints were taken. The left hand palmprints were not taken.
MR. KELBERG: Did you examine the card of the prints that were taken?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, I did not, because they were already released, but I have copies of the card.
MR. KELBERG: Is there a separate card to reflect the left palm and the right palm?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: In the back of the fingerprint card, actually. You have it in the back of the fingerprint cards.
MR. KELBERG: And did the copies of the card that you have show some kind of entry in each side, that is, for a left and a right?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have to check the card copy.
MR. KELBERG: All right. Could you refresh your memory if you would, please.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: (Witness complies.) I only have the front copy, I don't have the back, because it was released--the cards were released already I think.
MR. KELBERG: To whom were the cards released?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: To the LAPD and they were the ones who informed us that the palmprints were not taken--left hand was not available.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, in your opinion does the absence of a left palmprint from Nicole Brown Simpson affect your ability to evaluate the issues that you've evaluated?
MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, your Honor. That is an issue for the jury to determine.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. KELBERG: You may answer.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, no.
MR. KELBERG: I have another photograph, your Honor, I ask be marked as exhibit 313.
(Peo's 313 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are you familiar with what is shown in this photograph, 314--313, excuse me?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What is that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the area where the drop box is located where after the evidence is collected from the decedents it is placed in this kind of drop box and an evidence log is maintained.
MR. KELBERG: And doctor, if Mr. Fairtlough could zoom in on that mailbox like device, and there appears to be some kind of brown envelope in about the middle. Do you see that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And now he zoomed in where I think you can read something. What does that reflect?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the space where the evidence log cards are placed after the evidence has been dropped off in the drop box.
MR. KELBERG: When you say "Log cards are placed," is something to be completed by someone on that card?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: By whom?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The investigator on a particular case.
MR. KELBERG: Like Ms. Ratcliffe?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And is she expected, when she drops this off, to fill in what information?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: There are two log sheets here. One is the evidence log card which belongs to a particular case, so we can have a chain of custody of the evidence. The other is--there is a drop-off log sheet which is also available next to the drop box wherein it is indicated who dropped off what evidence in the drop off box.
MR. KELBERG: And she is expected to complete both documents?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What happens with the log card that is placed back in this envelope that is seen in this photograph, 313?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The--this evidence log card is retrieved by the evidence custodian who retrieves the evidence from the drop box.
MR. KELBERG: And what does the custodian--that would be Mr. Patino?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What does he do with it when he retrieves it?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: He retrieves it and it is a card which is used by him and information is completed as and when the evidence is released from the Coroner's office, so there is a chain of custody for the evidence. And if you look at the log sheet, which we will see later, you will have when the evidence was collected, when it was received in the evidence room, to whom it was released, et cetera.
MR. KELBERG: Is that document completed in the ordinary course of business for the Coroner's office by its employees?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And are the entries expected to be made at or near the time of the events which are recorded?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: I have another photograph I will ask Mr. Fairtlough to put on the elmo and ask that that be marked as 314, please, your Honor.
(Peo's 314 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, is this another view of the drop box?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: But we are now seeing both the front portion of the mailbox and what appears to be the right side of the mailbox; is that correct?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: There also appears to be a brown envelope of some sort on the right side. What is that all about?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the place where the fingerprint cards are placed after the fingerprints have been obtained on a decedent.
MR. KELBERG: And that is to be placed by whom?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The person collecting the fingerprints.
MR. KELBERG: In this case who was that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Mr. Jacobo.
MR. KELBERG: And what happens to the card once it is placed there?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is--it is--it is retrieved by the evidence custodian also.
MR. KELBERG: And that would be like a Mr. Patino?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What does Mr. Patino do with that once he collects it?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: He maintains the same information on the log sheet which I alluded to earlier so that we will have a chain of custody of the fingerprint cards in the Coroner's office.
MR. KELBERG: Is there anything else about the process of the collection of the hair kits, the nail kits and the deposit of those kits as collected that we have not covered that you feel should be brought out?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is important, you can see a lock there, nobody else has access to that lock except the evidence custodian, so that there is complete security of the evidence once it is dropped off in the lock box, and that is important.
MR. KELBERG: I will ask Mr. Fairtlough to put another photograph on. Ask that it be marked, your Honor, as exhibit 315.
THE COURT: People's 315.
(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
(Peo's 315 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: Mr. Lynch has offered me a good suggestion.
MR. KELBERG: With that box, you say it has got a lock. How could anybody get in to drop something off?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is like a mailbox on the upper part. You can drop in the evidence, but to retrieve it you need to open it and retrieve it from the lower portion.
MR. KELBERG: And is it fair to say that the security that is provided would be the same as if one wanted to retrieve the letter that they inadvertently dropped in a mailbox?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's correct.
MR. KELBERG: Now, let's see if we can go to this photograph that is up on the elmo, exhibit 315.
MR. KELBERG: What are we looking at here, doctor?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the area in the refrigerated room in the Coroner's office where the bodies are placed prior to autopsy. This is an area off the refrigerated crypt space where the homicide cases are kept.
MR. KELBERG: When you say "Crypt space," you mentioned crypt space before and you mentioned spaces 3 and 4 for Ms. Brown Simpson and Mr. Goldman is. This the area you are talking about?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, no, no. This is the area where we keep all the homicide cases in the crypt space which was earmarked is the space where the bodies are placed after the autopsy and before release, so we can locate the remains at that point.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is this area secure in any fashion?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I mean, the whole building is secure and this is a separate entry area into the refrigerated--you see the door there. That is an automatic door entry to the refrigerated crypt space area, and the only people who have access are the employees of the Coroner's office, the forensic attendants and the technicians.
MR. KELBERG: We are looking from the inside towards the door that would lead to the outside of this area?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, yes.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, why do you have this area refrigerated?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because you are storing human remains so that you prevent further deterioration of the body condition which happens after death.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, you have testified that the bodies were received at the Forensic Science Center on June 13th of 1994. Was any autopsy performed on either body on June 13th, 1994?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: Is that standard procedure?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, because usually the autopsies are performed the next day. Sometime we do perform autopsies the same day, depending on our case load, but generally the autopsies are performed the following day or the day after, soon after the investigative information is available to the doctor.
MR. KELBERG: Did the bodies of Nicole Brown Simpson and Mr. Goldman come to be placed in this room sometime on the 13th of June, 1994?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Had you examined either body prior to the time they were placed in this room?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.
MR. KELBERG: When did you first see either body?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Sometime in the midday of June 13th when I was made aware of these two deaths and I met Miss Claudine Ratcliffe and we went down together to look at the decedents in the decedent processing room which I had shown--which we had shown earlier on a photograph.
MR. KELBERG: The processing room is the fingernail kits, the hair kit area?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: When you saw--saw both bodies?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.
MR. KELBERG: Were they both clothed when you saw them?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Did you examine them in any detailed fashion at that time?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. I just examined briefly the external front aspect of both the decedents and at that point I asked Miss Ratcliffe whether a criminalist had been to the scene and I had information that no criminalist had gone to the scene. So I made sure that our criminalist from our office examines the decedents and I called the chief of laboratories and Mr. Mahanay, who is our criminalist at our office, came to look at both the decedents.
MR. KELBERG: I think we will get into that a bit later.
MR. KELBERG: Did you do anything other than what you have described with respect to examining the body on the 13th?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I also wanted to assign the cases to a physician and that is the day I looked at my schedule and I requested Dr. Golden to do both autopsies.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, take us through the process, if any, that you used in deciding to ask Dr. Golden to perform the autopsies in these two cases.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I had to see who is the experienced pathologist we have who are available, not only on the day these two decedents were brought at our office, which is June 13th, but will the day following and June 15th, because sometimes an autopsy may take more time than necessary. And Dr. Golden was one of the physicians who was available all the three days, as I saw on the schedule, and the others--as I told you earlier, I have twelve board certified forensic pathologists and he was one of the pathologists who was available.
MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, is there a chief under you who is in charge of the forensic medicine division of the Coroner's office?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Who is that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Dr. Rogers.
MR. KELBERG: Would he be described as the no. 2 man in your operation?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Is he board certified?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Do you consider him to be an experienced and competent forensic pathologist?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Was he available for the three days you felt were necessary, the day that you were seeing the bodies, the 13th, and the two subsequent days?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: He was not. He was on medical leave.
MR. KELBERG: Was there any other forensic pathologist who you felt might be better suited for these particular cases?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. I consider all my forensic pathologists to be--who are board certified as experienced and capable, but I do have three senior physicians who also do complex cases when the necessity arises, and all three of them were not working all three days.
MR. KELBERG: Who are the others--do the three include Dr. Rogers?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: Who are the three you are talking about?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Dr. Sherry, Dr. Ribe and Dr. Carpenter.
MR. KELBERG: Why did you feel it was necessary that whoever was to be assigned the cases had to be there the 13th and the 14th? I think you explained why there may be a need to go over to the 15th, but why did you feel the need for the 13th?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It is very important when you have a homicide case that somebody sees the remains when they are clothed, when the evidence has been collected, and then follow up with their autopsy and then follow through the process of dictation and determining the final cause and manner of death.
MR. KELBERG: And none of these three were available for the three days that you described?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Not all of three days because one of them was off on Mondays and the other physician was off on Tuesdays and Wednesday, and the third physician was off on Wednesday, and furthermore, they also are the administrative type of physicians who--who are called operation officers, which I mentioned on Friday, who determine the extent of examination and assign cases, and they do the examinations in the office, that is, the cases which we don't autopsy, they do the examinations.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, why didn't you do the autopsies? You are the top man there.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is a good question to ask, but I have other responsibilities being the Chief Medical Examiner Coroner. I have numerous responsibilities. I was also doing the administrative function of Dr. Rogers.
MR. KELBERG: Did you see these as high-publicity cases?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Did you think that it might be beneficial to you personally to handle these cases?
MR. SHAPIRO: Irrelevant.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is there a book called "Coroner to the Stars"?
MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, irrelevant.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor--
THE COURT: Mr. Kelberg, would this be a good place to take a break?
MR. KELBERG: Anytime you want, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take our regular 10:30 break. Please remember all my admonitions. Please don't discuss the case amongst yourselves, form any opinions about the case, don't allow anybody to communicate with you, don't conduct any deliberations until the matter has been submitted to you. We will take a break for fifteen minutes. All right. Doctor, you can step down.
(Recess.)
(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)
THE COURT: Back on the record in the Simpson matter. All parties are again present. All right. Deputy Magnera, let's have the jurors, please.
(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)
THE COURT: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. All right. Let the record reflect that we've been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Dr. Lakshmanan is again on the witness stand undergoing direct examination by Mr. Kelberg. And, Mr. Kelberg, you may resume with your direct examination.
MR. KELBERG: Thank you, your Honor. I have another photograph for Mr. Fairtlough. And actually before you put it on, Mr. Fairtlough, a couple more questions of Dr. Lakshmanan.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, I was asking you why you did not consider performing the autopsies on these two cases. Were there any other reasons that you took into account for deciding not to?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: As I told you, I have numerous responsibilities as a Coroner for Los Angeles. I'm responsible for the quality of the reports which go on all the 6,000 autopsies we do, another 5,000 examinations which we do, and I'm also available for other functions in the office. And it's all enumerated--all my functions are enumerated in my curriculum vitae. But besides the point, I feel that the comple--different cases have to be experienced by different pathologists in my department so they're all capable of doing complex cases.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, you've used this term again, "Complex cases." Did you consider each of these two cases to be a complex case?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Not in the type of case itself, but the number of injuries they have.
MR. KELBERG: Tell us more how you distinguish between these two concepts.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: When you--when you refer to the case complex, complex--complexity may refer to the number of injuries a particular decedent has and complexity can also refer to a difficult medical case where there's been hospitalization and lot of medical problems which had to be correlated with pathological findings, and that will be a different type of complexity. A child abuse case could be more complex than a case like this where you have injuries which are clearly observable.
MR. KELBERG: When you're talking about more complex in the sense that you've mentioned child abuse cases and so forth, is that a thought process requiring a more experienced individual than maybe a younger forensic pathologist in your office?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Well, it--it would be preferable for a more experienced person doing the case. But in our office, we have all the board certified pathologists and also fellows in training who do the cases, but they work under the supervision of the experienced pathologist. So what I'm trying to say is, every as--every type of case can be handled by any of one of my--any one of my pathologists with the assistance or without the assistance of other experienced pathologists.
MR. KELBERG: Would you consider the case of Nicole Brown Simpson from a forensic pathology standpoint to be a bread and butter type of case for a Los Angeles County Deputy Medical Examiner?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Why?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because this is a kind of homicide case we see routinely in our office, and any given day, we have about ten--eight to ten homicide cases being performed and we have a significant number of them which have sharp force injuries, blunt force injuries or firearm injuries.
MR. KELBERG: And would the same opinion apply with respect to the case of Mr. Goldman?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Bread and butter?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: For the same reasons?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Now, if Mr. Fairtlough could put on this photograph. And, this, your Honor, I would ask to be marked 316.
THE COURT: All right. People's 316.
(Peo's 316 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, are you familiar with what's shown in this photograph?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That also shows the same refrigerated crypt space, but you're looking at it from the outside of the door. You saw the photograph from the inside. This is from the outside.
MR. KELBERG: And now if we could go to the laser disk no. 55, please.
MR. KELBERG: And, doctor--
MR. KELBERG: And, your Honor, I would ask this be marked as 317.
THE COURT: People's 317.
(Peo's 317 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: What is this that's shown in this photograph, doctor?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is another autopsy room in the Coroner's office. This is a smaller room, and these have crypt spaces with doors which can be locked. And what you're seeing is two doors in which there are crypt spaces available, and this would give more security to the bodies if the doors are locked. And in the normal process over the years, we use this crypt space for bodies which are decomposed or skeletonized remains. And this area--
MR. KELBERG: I'm sorry. Skeletonized remains?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Skeletonized--partially skeletonized remains. And this area of the crypt space in our office is reserved for these type of decedents.
MR. KELBERG: And is this crypt space what you were referring to earlier in nos. 3 and 4 or something else?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No. No. 3 and 4 was referred to the crypt space in the other area, in the refrigerated crypt space.
MR. KELBERG: Anything else about this photograph, doctor?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Nothing else.
MR. KELBERG: If we could move to no. 24, please. And I'd ask, your Honor, this be 318.
THE COURT: All right. 318.
(Peo's 318 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: What is shown in this photograph, doctor?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the area of the office where photographs are taken. This is the photo studio area of the office. And the decedent's clothing is removed. They're photographed before the clothing is removed, and after the clothing is removed, body is washed. All the photographs are taken here.
MR. KELBERG: Let's start this process. First of all, in the cases of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, when is this process taking place?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It took place on June 14th in the morning.
MR. KELBERG: And what is the process? Take us step by step what is the process.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The process is, the photographer takes the remains to this photo studio area. He makes a blue photographic--you know, the blue card which we saw earlier, that is completed for each decedent. And one of the procedures in the Coroner's office is to take a picture of the card and the id band so you know you're taking the picture of that person, and the number is also cross-checked. Then photographs are taken of the decedent with the clothing on in the condition they are seen at that time. Following this process, the photographer removes the clothing and places them in the clothing rack which you saw earlier sometime. And the body is washed and photographed with special attention to injuries. And one of the important steps in the photography would be to take a photograph of the injury so that the anatomical region can be identified, and then a close-up photograph is also taken so that the injury can be better documented. And this is one stage of the photography of a decedent before autopsy.
MR. KELBERG: Is the medical examiner who is going to perform the autopsy expected to examine the body at the time the photographs are first being taken with the clothes on?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Usually the medical examiner will examine the body before the photographs are taken and sometimes during the process itself. It depends. And in this particular situation, Dr. Golden saw the bodies with me on the 13th.
MR. KELBERG: In the clothed condition?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Now, was anything done to the bodies between the 13th and the 14th when they're going to be photographed clothed?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I told you that Mr. Mahanay, our criminalist, saw the remains along with Miss Claudine Ratcliffe to see whether any other evidence needs to be collected, and I think--not I think. On Miss Nicole Brown Simpson, he collected bloodstains which were found in the right lower extremity, which is the thigh and cuff area, and he collected that as physical evidence, and that was submitted on the 13th. And he examined the bodies with Miss Claudine Ratcliffe. I was also present at that time, before he collected the evidence rather, and that process also took place in addition to the nail collection, the hair collection, the fingerprint card processing, and this all happened on the 13th. Dr. Golden and I looked at the bodies on the 13th and then Dr. Golden did the autopsies on the 14th and the photographic process took place on the 14th of June, 1994. And--
MR. KELBERG: Incident--I'm sorry.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That's--I stop.
MR. KELBERG: In selecting Dr. Golden to perform these two autopsies, had you become familiar with Dr. Golden's performance in any other high publicity double homicides?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. He did the Menendez decedents who died and it was a double murder, and he has been with the office for 15--14 years as I mentioned earlier. He's one of our experienced pathologists who has done many demanding complex cases for the Coroner's office. As I told you, he has done over 5,000 cases. He always handles them consistent manner. And to answer your question, he had handled other high profile complex cases before.
MR. KELBERG: As of the 14th--13th of June actually, 1994, had you been aware of any cases in which Dr. Golden had been the forensic pathologist in which he had made what you believed to be a major mistake in the course of his duties as a forensic pathologist autopsying a body?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Not that I was aware of.
MR. KELBERG: Subsequent to your involvement in this case, have you become aware of several such cases?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: We're going to get into that later. But at the time you assigned Dr. Golden, were you aware of any such problems?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, in going through this process, the bodies are photographed clothed first and then you said the clothing is removed by the photographer; is that correct?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Are the bodies then rephotographed basically in the same place in the same position with the clothing removed?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: What is the next step?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The--the--correction. That photography may have taken place, but also the body is washed and then photographed.
MR. KELBERG: Why do you wash the body?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because when you have bloodstains on the body from injuries, they obscure the details of the injury. The purpose of the photography is to document the injuries so that there's a permanent documentation of the injuries in a manner that can be easily evaluated by any qualified professional forensic pathologist to make an interpretation of the injury pattern seen. So if you don't wash the bodies, one, you'll miss injuries. No. 2, you won't have a proper documentation because when you have blood staining which are dried up, it will cause problems in interpretation.
MR. KELBERG: What is used to wash the bodies?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: They use soap and water and also the sponge, soft sponge so that the blood staining can be removed. And this is the reason that any evidence collection which needs to be done is done before photography because after the body is washed, you really cannot collect any evidence--
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is it expected--
DR. LAKSHMANAN: --external evidence.
MR. KELBERG: Is it expected that some examination will be done at the time that these photographs are taken of the head of each decedent to see whether or not any injuries may be covered by the hair over the head?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What is the process that takes place?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Usually the--the forensic autopsy photographic technician who does the process will look at the head region separating the hairs and looking for any injury while he's washing the body because when you have a bloodstain and you wash the bloodstain off, you can perceive the injuries when you do this process. But sometimes you may not be able to see the injuries clearly and which is corrected--not corrected--which is taken care of when the body's autopsied. When you open the head to reflect the skin of the scalp, you see the hemorrhage from injuries, and then you can retrace your steps, go back to the skin surface wherein you may see an injury which you did not see earlier because of the--which you have not seen earlier, and then you can shave the hair and observe the injury better. So that is a process which can take place during the photography if you see the injury when you separate the hair or the shaving can take place during the autopsy itself. Then you observe the injury better.
MR. KELBERG: And initially, at the time of the photography being performed, who is expected--in the case of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, who is expected to do the initial examination and, if necessary, shaving?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The photographer, they are very experienced in our office. They will automatically see the--any particular injury and they will shave the area and photograph the area.
MR. KELBERG: Are they trained in--to look for those very things that you've just described?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And what do they use to shave the hair?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Regular fresh scalpel blade which is used to shave the hair after you use the soap and water there.
MR. KELBERG: Now, the washing of the body that you've described has already occurred before the shaving of the hair; is that correct?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It's part of the whole--all these things occur during the same time. That is, you wash the body, you wash the hair area also because naturally, when you have so much bleeding--in these two victims, you had a lot of head and neck injuries, which we'll be discussing later, where there is blood staining in the hair and also soaking which has to be washed off and then you perceive the injuries.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is it common that when hair is shaved from the decedent's body, that some loose hair will remain clinging to the body when the autopsy is actually performed?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It's--it can happen.
MR. KELBERG: And in fact, you have examined all of the autopsy photographs taken in this case of both Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman; is that correct?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I have.
MR. KELBERG: In some of the photographs in each case, do you see what appear to be the remnants of hair that has been shared in the course of the process you've described?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Anything unusual about that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, if--we've got the head shaved. What is the next step with respect to the bodies?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The photography usually takes place the same day of the autopsy, and once the photographer has done the photography, if there is necessity to do x-rays and fluoroscopy--especially this happens in deaths from firearms--that is the next stage of the processing of the decedents in the Coroner's office. They go to the fluoroscopy or x-ray room and x-rays are taken, as I told you, if there is an injury from firearms because our x-rays are taken to localize projectiles, and that is the next stage if that is necessary.
MR. KELBERG: Number one, was the fluoroscope used in either case here?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: Was an x-ray taken or more than one x-ray taken in either case here?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Nicole Brown Simpson had x-rays taken at a later stage of the spinal specimen, which was removed during autopsy. We didn't do any x-rays on the day of the autopsy.
MR. KELBERG: What's a fluoroscope?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Fluoroscopy is an x-ray process by which you can see the body as you're looking--you look at--you look at the x-ray picture on a monitor, but you don't take the x-ray. So you have--you can screen the body. Basically the body is screened with the fluoroscope. And once you localize an area of the body where there's a particular projectile or foreign body which is radiopaque, then you shoot an x-ray of that particular area.
MR. KELBERG: Why was no fluoroscope used in this--in these two cases?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because it was not felt--not indicated. There was no firearm injury and--
MR. KELBERG: Do you feel that it was indicated in either case after your review of everything?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I think x-rays of the head and neck could have been useful.
MR. KELBERG: In what way?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because when you have an injury from sharp force injury--especially tips of weapons can sometimes--especially a knife can sometimes break especially in the--when they impinge on the scull area or the facial area, and that can be picked up on an x-ray. Fluoroscope may not pick up a small fragment of a knife, but an x-ray will. So in hair and neck sharp force trauma deaths, an x-ray may be indicated to exclude that possibility. In this particular situation, on Miss Nicole Brown Simpson, the only bony injury which Dr. Golden saw during his autopsy was the spine, third thoracic spine which was injured. So we had the whole specimen itself and--but I ordered x-rays on the spinal specimen at a later date to make sure that we don't have any metallic fragment left in the spine, and this was done at a later stage.
MR. KELBERG: And did you find that there was any metallic fragment left?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, in your opinion, does the absence of an x-ray of the head or neck, other than the one you've described in the case of Nicole Brown Simpson, diminish your ability to determine any of the issues that you have reviewed in this case?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: And would your answer be the same with respect to your ability to evaluate the issues that you have in the circumstance of Ronald Goldman?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough, no. 54, please.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what are we looking at in what I would ask to be marked exhibit 319?
MR. KELBERG: May it be so marked, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
(Peo's 319 for id = photograph)
MR. KELBERG: Now what is this, doctor?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This is the same third autopsy room I was mentioning where you have the crypt spaces with doors available to secure the decedents. What we have--this room is being shown to show the portable x-ray machine in this room which is available because what has happened is, our current x-ray machine is being--being replaced with a new x-ray machine. So right now, we are doing portable x-rays only. We are not doing any fluoroscopy at this time.
MR. KELBERG: And how long have you been waiting for the new machine?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It's being installed. We should be in operation in the next few weeks. It's a supposedly state of the art x-ray machine.
MR. KELBERG: If we could have--oh, I'm sorry. You mentioned this is the third autopsy room?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What--you have three autopsy rooms. Is that safe to say from what you said?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. We have a main autopsy room with six autopsy stations, we have another autopsy room with five autopsy stations, and this is the third autopsy room, which is used for cases where the bodies are decomposed or where there is a communicable disease suspected. This room has negative air exchange flow available and this is a room we use for such cases. This has three autopsy stations. So basically we have capability of 14 autopsy stations which are used.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, what do you mean--
DR. LAKSHMANAN: And we also use this room for examinations.
MR. KELBERG: What do you mean by "Negative air exchange flow"?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is basically the--when you have air coming into a room, the same air is not recirculated. It's--it's--it's--it's removed from the autopsy room to a suction type of situation.
MR. KELBERG: Why do you do that in the cases such as you've indicated are autopsied in this room?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because these communicable diseases, as I've mentioned, is done there. We also have decomposed bodies being done there. You have the--in the latter, you have the situation of smell and that factor. And the communicable disease situation, you have aerosolization of microorganisms which are more--the potential is higher. Not that every case, you have to treat as though it could be potentially infectious. And in our office, protective clothing, mask and eye shields are used on by the doctors and technicians on every case entering the high risk area. We call all these areas a high risk areas, but this has an additional feature to this room where there's negative air flow available.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, on any given day at your office--you say you have 14 autopsy stations. I assume "Station" means there's a table and whatever necessary accouterment are required by your medical examiner. How many of those stations are being used to conduct autopsies?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Any given day, I would say at least 10 or 11 are being used. Sometimes all 13, 14 can be used. We handle 19,000 inquiries. We bring in 10,000 bodies to the central office. 6,000 autopsies on an average are performed a year, 2500 homicides--I mean investigated as homicide. We treat them like homicides and 2,000 are certified as homicides every year. And even though only 6,000 autopsies approximately take place every year, you have 4,000 cases which are examined which kept partial or just an examination, and those kind of examinations take place in this third autopsy room.
MR. KELBERG: Incidentally, doctor, does your office perform autopsies seven days of the week?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And so when you were saying how Dr.--I'm not sure if it was Sherry or Rebie--was off on Tuesday or Wednesday when you're talking about going through the process of who was available to handle the case, those would be the normal days off for some of your doctors?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct.
MR. KELBERG: And such a doctor would then be working on Saturday and/or Sunday?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I have--see, as I told you, there are senior doctors who do the triaging for the Coroner's office who make that important decision which bodies need to get autopsied. As you know, the autopsies are--cost the taxpayer about 2,000 plus dollars a case, and we are to be cognizant in what we do, which case, because our mandate is--determine the cost and manner of death, and that decision is made by the senior doctor on the call that day.
MR. KELBERG: Is the term "Triage" something that might apply to what that doctor is doing?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What does that mean?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is, you select the cases which need--and you decide the extent of examination based on the circumstances. Some cases like a 20-Year old who suddenly drops dead by playing football will need a full autopsy and everything to try and find out what happened. But somebody with known heart disease or has history of heart disease who suddenly--who's had two bypass surgeries, who suddenly collapses but has not seen a physician in 20 days becomes a Coroner's case. In that particular situation, you just do an examination and--because the circumstances point to that person having had a natural death and most of them might have--some of them might have gone to a hospital and you may have enough medical information to give a cause and manner of death. So that's where the differentiation comes, or we may just do a limited exam of the heart in that particular situation. So this is where the senior doctor makes that important decision, the extent of examination.
MR. KELBERG: Dr. Golden was not one of these senior doctors, was he?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, he was not.
MR. KELBERG: Why wasn't he one of your senior doctors?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I don't think he applied for the position. Some physicians don't like to have administrative responsibilities. They just like to do their routine, regular work and they want to be there--he didn't apply.
MR. KELBERG: Mr. Fairtlough, if we could have no. 26, please.
MR. KELBERG: What are we looking at in this photo which I would ask the Court to mark as exhibit 320.
(Peo's 320 for id = photograph)
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Oh, this is the room where the drying rack--you know, the clothing which is taken off the decedents are placed to dry. They're initially kept in the photo area and then moved to this room. You can see that the clothing is all being air dried in this room. And it's important that the drying takes place--air drying. You don't--that's the only way to dry the clothing.
MR. KELBERG: Why do you want to dry the clothing, doctor?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because if you wrap clothing which is moist with blood or body fluids, you will have growth of mold. And the reason you dry the clothing is, if any evidence needs to be collected from the clothing, especially body fluids or bloodstains, it has to be air dried and you should not have contamination of overgrowth of fungus or bacteria. So air dried and then you wrap it in paper.
MR. KELBERG: And who is responsible, number one, for getting the clothing from the photography room to this drying area?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The photographer. And then from this stage, the evidence custodian takes the process over.
MR. KELBERG: Who was the photographer in these two cases?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: John Marsden, J-O-H-N M-A-R-S-D-E-N.
MR. KELBERG: And then who was responsible for taking over the collection of the clothing to the drying room?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I don't recall the name exactly, but it's in the evidence log sheet. I think it's Mr.--
MR. KELBERG: You can refresh your memory if you need to from that document.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I'll do that.
(Brief pause.)
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The--as I mentioned, Mr. John Marsden removed the clothing. Mr. Patino received the clothing in the evidence room.
MR. KELBERG: On what date if it's indicated on a document?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: June 16th. On Nicole, it was 16th.
MR. KELBERG: And on Mr. Goldman?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I have to refer to his--I think it's the same date, but I have to check.
MR. KELBERG: All right. I'll collect that, doctor.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Doesn't--the books are thick.
(Brief pause.)
DR. LAKSHMANAN: On Mr. Goldman, it was September the 20th. So it's a different date.
MR. KELBERG: And who was the person who was responsible--
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Mr. Patino.
MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, what is used to wrap the clothing?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: I said paper is used, brown paper.
MR. KELBERG: Why is brown paper used?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because paper is the best material to use for wrapping clothing because you want air flow in the--around the clothing even when it's dry for the same reason earlier; you don't want mold to grow.
MR. KELBERG: What happens to the clothing after it's been wrapped, doctor?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The evidence custodian, after the clothing is wrapped, from the drying rack takes it to the evidence room, which is a separate area in the office.
MR. KELBERG: And I think we have some photographs of that; is that correct?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Yes.
MR. KELBERG: We'll get to that in a moment. But what is to happen to the clothing when it gets to that evidence room?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It's placed in a larger bag and then--and stored in the evidence room. All this information of the chronology of events is recorded in the evidence log sheet.
MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, if you look in this photograph that's up on the screen, 320, there appears to be some kind of sign to the right of the entryway. Do you see that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And if Mr. Fairtlough could move to photo 27. Is this a close-up of that sign?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And how does one gain entry to this clothing drying area?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: It's a secure room. It's locked and you have to call the evidence--I mean, the technician who--autopsy technician who placed the clothing there can access it, but usually we call the evidence custodian who will retrieve the clothing from this room for examination. This is if the doctor wants to go back and examine the clothing.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, is the medical examiner expected to examine the clothing--not just look at the clothing, but examine the clothing of a decedent such as Ronald Goldman?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And a decedent such as Nicole Brown Simpson?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: What is the medical examiner expected to be looking for in examining the clothing of these people?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: One, you describe what clothing was present on the decedent, whether a shirt, pant, the nature of the clothing. Then also, you have to look at the size, the label, manufacturer, give a description of the color, give a description of the material and then--then look at the clothing in detail for distribution of staining if you can make that determination, then look for defects. Basically you--you--you look at the clothing before autopsy, and then following autopsy, you may have a better understanding of all the injuries which you observed on the decedent so you can go back to the clothing to correlate and see whether there are any defects corresponding to every injury of the body or there are additional defects or there are no defects, depending on what the situation may be.
MR. KELBERG: "Defects" sounds like a term of art. What does it mean in lay language?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Hole in the clothing which is not from fraying or normal process. It's a hole made by an object or a--like if it's a gunshot wound, a defect in the clothing caused by the gunshot wound. If it's from a knife, a hole caused by the knife.
MR. KELBERG: Have you examined in the fashion that you've indicated you would expect a medical examiner to examine the clothing examined the clothing of Nicole Brown Simpson as you saw that same clothing on the 13th of June?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. I examined them twice, once briefly with Dr. Badin on the 22nd, and then I did a detailed examination of the clothing with my criminalist I think in March of this year. I forget the exact date.
MR. KELBERG: The criminalist was Mr. Dowell, Steve Dowell?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Yes. And I've generated a report which is in the file.
MR. KELBERG: And did the same two examinations apply to the clothing of Ronald Goldman?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. One examination, June 22nd with Dr. Badin, the second examination with my criminalist on March of this year.
MR. KELBERG: In your examination of the clothing of Mr. Goldman, did you examine a shirt that he appeared to have been wearing when you saw the bodies on the 13th of June?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Had you already reviewed any reports of Dr. Golden regarding any examination he made of that same shirt?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.
MR. KELBERG: Did you find that there was a difference in the number of defects, as you use the term, that you identified in Mr. Goldman's shirt from what Dr. Golden described in any report that he observed?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes, I did.
MR. KELBERG: What is the difference?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: He described three defects in Mr. Goldman's shirt. When I examined it with our criminalist and Dr. Golden again--I forgot to mention that Dr. Golden was during--present during the exam in March--we found three additional unlabeled defects, because when we examined the clothing in March, rather when I examined it in detail, the clothing already had been examined by several persons, criminalists who had removed evidence from the clothing. So when I examined the clothing in March in detail, there were three additional unlabeled defects. "Unlabeled" means which would signify that there are defects which were from the injuries.
MR. KELBERG: In your March examination, you say you saw other areas that appeared to have been cut out from the same shirt?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Shirt, yes.
MR. KELBERG: But did those areas all have some kind of initialing alongside the area where the hole now appeared?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: So when you're talking about these three additional defects, you're talking about three additional tears if you will?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: That do not have any initialing next to them; is that correct?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: When you and Dr. Badin examined the shirt I think you said on June 22nd, did you examine it in the same fashion with the same detail that you examined it in March of this year?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No, I did not because there was--the clothing had not yet been released for scientific analysis and we had to be careful. It was just a brief examination because, as you know, there were material on the clothing which had to be analyzed. So we just did a brief examination and I did it out of courtesy to the Defense pathologist so they could have a view of the clothing. So we instructed them not to do a more detailed exam at that point till the evidence was examined.
MR. KELBERG: And when you say "Evidence was examined," the evidence was turned over to the Los Angeles Police Department, the clothing that is?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes. Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Now, doctor, do you consider Dr. Golden's failure to describe the three additional defects that you saw--you saw a total of six defects in the shirt?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: And Dr. Golden described three; is that correct?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Did you see of your six, three that appeared to correspond to the description provided by Dr. Golden as to the three he saw?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Do you consider his failure to identify in the report the three additional defects that you saw a mistake?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.
MR. KELBERG: Do you consider that mistake to have any significance on any of the issues that you have reviewed for testimony in this case?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: Why not?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because there are defects in the clothing and the clothing was--is available, and it didn't play a role in the cause and manner of death or the injuries of the body which have been documented. The--the clothing in this situation would be useful to--to try and analyze whether there's any injury on the clothing which is not present on the body, in which case it would reflect that there was some kind of injury to the person which--the instrument which caused that defect in the clothing did not really cause injury to the body. That would be one reason you examine the clothing; to see for defects which don't exist on the body surface when you put the clothing on the body.
MR. KELBERG: Can you give us an example to make it somewhat clearer perhaps?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Let's say there's a gunshot wound to the arm. I'm just giving an analogy. When you examine the shirt with the long sleeve, you find one gunshot wound to the arm which has entered and exited the arm, and you have two defects in the clothing corresponding to that. But when you examine the sleeve of the shirt, you find two other gunshot wound defects that would signify--which are not in the same area, which would signify there are additional wounds to the body which did not strike the decedent. In that kind of example, it would indicate there were more shots fired which did not strike the decedent because when you do the body, you only see the injuries which caused injury to the body. I hope I've conveyed what I wanted to say.
MR. KELBERG: I'm not sure. Doctor, with respect to tears in clothing, in your experience in cases of this type, is it common to see that the clothing during the course of the assault which leads to the death may become disarrayed from the way it is normally worn?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is the--that is quite common occurrence.
MR. KELBERG: And is that something that you also are looking for with respect to the defects in the clothing and trying to correlate it with any particular injuries?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is other reason.
MR. KELBERG: And how does that happen? How do you do that?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: You must have injuries on the clothing which are of similar size to the wounds on the body and they must be in a location of the clothing within the same region where the injury's on the body. For example, in Mr. Ron Goldman's autopsy report, which shows some injuries to the right chest and right flank, there are defects in the clothing which may help in bringing up the example you--you--you just gave in your question.
MR. KELBERG: And right flank, just for our present purposes, is what area of the body, doctor?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The--
MR. KELBERG: Could you stand with the Court's permission? Could the witness stand?
THE COURT: Sure.
(The witness complies.)
DR. LAKSHMANAN: The right side--
MR. KELBERG: Keep your voice up, doctor, please.
DR. LAKSHMANAN: This part of the body. Right flank, this part of the body (Indicating).
MR. KELBERG: And for the record, your Honor, the witness is pointing to his right side, perhaps an inch and a half or two above the belt line.
THE COURT: Noted.
MR. KELBERG: You may retake the seat, doctor.
(The witness complies.)
DR. LAKSHMANAN: And there were also two defects in the back of the shirt when--the way we examined it when we--correction--when we examined it, and there's no defect in the back in Mr. Goldman's body as an injury.
MR. KELBERG: What if any significance does that have to you?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: One explanation could be that there was some twisting and turning of Mr. Goldman during the altercation which would move the clothing on the body like--because he was--he didn't have any undershirt on. And this is a larger shirt, and the shirt would move on the body like a cylinder within a cylinder, the outer cylinder moving. And you could have--what I'm trying to say is, the clothing which shows the defect could have been in the area of the injury of the body during this twisting and turning of Mr. Goldman because the clothing is loose on his body surface.
MR. KELBERG: And then when one might put the clothing on as it would normally be worn, the defect will appear in an area other than where the defect is in the body itself?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: That is correct. That is correct. So there are two reasons which can be helpful to the clothing. One, you see additional defects which don't necessarily have an injury in the body and the second reason we just analyzed.
MR. KELBERG: Doctor, Dr. Golden's mistake in failing to identify these three defects, in your opinion, does that have any significance in your ability to determine whether one knife could have caused all of what I'll call sharp force injuries received by Mr. Goldman?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.
MR. KELBERG: Why not?
DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because I have the injuries on the bodies which I examined. I've examined all the photographs, injuries in the body through the photographs which I saw. I had one-as-to-one photographs which were available to me, and the injury pattern was quite distinct in some of the injuries which I saw. So the clothing doesn't really help you much with the injury pattern as looking at the injuries on the body.
MR. KELBERG: But in spite of all that, it's still a mistake for Dr. Golden not to