Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(Pages 36285 through 36289, volume 185A, transcribed and sealed under separate cover.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. The Defendant is again present with his counsel, Mr. Cochran, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Bailey. The People are represented by Mr. Darden, Mr. Gordon and Miss Lewis. And I see we also have Miss Hamburger on behalf of Marguerite Thomas. All right. Good morning, counsel.

MS. LEWIS: Good morning, your Honor. Your Honor, I believe Miss Thomas' counsel is here as a result of being ordered back after the body attachment issued and so forth. It is our decision not to call Marguerite Thompson--Thomas, I'm sorry, Simpson to testify, so I don't know if the Defense wants her ordered back for their case or not.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, if we want her, we will make arrangements to get her.

THE COURT: All right. Then the body attachment will be recalled and quashed, and Miss Hamburger, thank you, and you and your client are free to leave.

MS. HAMBURGER: Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.

MS. LEWIS: All right. Also, your Honor, this morning I filed two motions in limine to preclude certain testimony. One of them deals with--

THE COURT: Excuse me. Is there something funny?

(Brief pause.)

MS. LEWIS: One of them deals with Christian Reichardt who I heard Mr. Cochran indicate he had asked to come back this afternoon. Obviously I filed and served these this morning. Does the Court want to give an indication--let me let you know what the other brief is. The other one has to do with a witness called Lori Menzione who had a telephone conversation with the Defendant in Chicago. The motion in limine is to preclude her testifying to that conversation for insufficient foundation and hearsay reasons. She is sort of toward the end of the list of nine or ten witnesses I believe they gave us yesterday, so may, I guess, possibly hit the witness stand late today at the rate the witnesses are moving along. Perhaps the Defense can give us a better indication of when they expect she would hit the witness stand, Lori Menzione.

THE COURT: You are filing two motions in limine to preclude certain testimony?

MS. LEWIS: Yes.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, first of all, I haven't seen the motions thus far, and I just received them, but Miss Menzione, as far as I know, arrived here late last night from Chicago. She is here. And at the rate we are proceeding we could possibly get to her today or this evening or tomorrow morning at the earliest. And Mr. Reichardt, Dr. Reichardt, rather, is--was here yesterday. I asked him to be ordered back today. We have a number of witnesses today, so it just depends on this. But obviously I'm going to ask the Court to allow us to have until 1:30 again today because I have got witnesses even coming in over the lunch hour to keep the pace up and I will get a chance to review this. I haven't even had a chance to look at this and I have got a witness on the stand now, and once I determine what these areas are, we will just refrain from going into them until we can work that out, but I don't want to hold up witnesses who have flown from in from Chicago. I would like to put on all the witnesses regarding no controversy. If there is a controversy regarding the witness, put them at end of the day or put them at the next day, if possible. I'm sure the Court was kidding about the pace because it was rather breakneck yesterday and we will try to do that also.

THE COURT: The court reporters told me that they thought that comment was serious.

MR. COCHRAN: They thought you were serious?

THE COURT: And they were going to make arrangements to have transportation available for them sometime eight or nine o'clock tonight.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that right? Is that right? We thought you were kidding because I'm sure your Honor was impressed with the speed you proceeded yesterday, but we will still do what we have to do.

THE COURT: I do expect us to keep up, however, a good pace.

MR. COCHRAN: We expect to. This is our idea, your Honor.

THE COURT: Counsel, believe me, I appreciate that. For every hour of presentation in the courtroom, there is probably a hundred hours in preparation for that.

MR. COCHRAN: You know, as the Court could appreciate we were up 11:00, 12 o'clock last night and Mr. Douglas this morning seeing witnesses who flew in from Chicago, too late to even talk to last night, and we will do it.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. COCHRAN: For the record, Miss Lewis, I haven't seen these yet. Are you going to argue these?

MS. LEWIS: Yes.

THE COURT: We will chat about those at the noon hour.

MS. LEWIS: You expect at 1:00 or 1:30?

THE COURT: 1:30 at this point.

MR. COCHRAN: May I talk to her?

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I have one matter to take up. I just informed the People of a witness who called me late last night who had relevant testimony, it appears, on the time of the barking dog or dogs. I have asked that witness to come to court this morning. I will make that witness available to the Prosecution as that witness will be available to us, and we would like to keep this case going, keep this case in order, and this witness just came to our attention at about ten o'clock last evening. I have given the People her name and we will make her available to them immediately.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. DARDEN: I don't mind this witness testifying tomorrow after we've had a chance to talk to her, but I think to just give me a name, one which I can't read completely, by the way, two minutes ago, is--

THE COURT: Mr. Darden, this is just Mr. Shapiro putting on the record that he has given you the information.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

THE COURT: We are all aware of it. I will give you reasonable time.

MR. DARDEN: If I could also have her address.

MR. SHAPIRO: I don't have her address. She is coming down.

MR. DARDEN: And the correct spelling of her name.

MR. SHAPIRO: I never met her.

THE COURT: If the witness is going to be here this morning, however, she will be available to be interviewed by either yourself or one of your investigators, one of your colleagues.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Let's have the jurors, please. I'm sorry.

MR. BAILEY: I think Mr. Douglas has a matter, but I have one.

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

MR. BAILEY: If it please the Court, yesterday you heard a reference to a witness Lang and you heard a reference to a white truck in the cross-examination of Francesca Harman by Mr. Darden. I discovered yesterday for the first time since we have been working with Mr. Lang that a tape-recording of his observations that night was made almost immediately after the events and turned over to the Prosecution many months ago, together with a sketch of what he saw. And he says that at ten o'clock at night he saw a large white truck, somebody in the truck, a blond woman he now recognizes as Nicole Brown Simpson, discoursing with the person in the truck and someone standing near the entrance to her gate in a menacing posture of Caucasian or Asian decent. Now, I think it an absolute outrage that this clearly exculpatory evidence, putting on the testimony of someone else who could possibly have figured into these murders, has not been turned over to the Defense, and I ask that you order that it be turned over forthwith and that we find out why it wasn't at some point. Meanwhile, I will inform the Court that Mr. Lang's lawyer is having the tape transcribed by his secretary and I will make it available to the Court as soon as I get it.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden, what about this?

MR. DARDEN: Are we talking about Heidstra or Lang?

MR. BAILEY: Lang.

MR. DARDEN: That is Miss Clark's witness, your Honor. I haven't heard a tape of Mr. Lang.

THE COURT: Do you know anything about a sketch?

MR. DARDEN: No, I know nothing about a sketch.

THE COURT: Well, when Miss Clark arrives and we are in a break, we will find out.

MR. BAILEY: I'm sure Mr. Darden will convey to her my concerns.

MR. DARDEN: You can convey them yourself.

THE COURT: Mr. Douglas.

MR. DOUGLAS: Your Honor, I just wanted to put on the record--

THE COURT: Excuse me. Mr. Darden, direct your comments to the Court; not to Mr. Douglas.

MR. DOUGLAS: May it please the Court, your Honor, I want to simply put on the record that this morning I have given Mr. Darden a packet of 13 x-rays of Mr. Simpson which we intend to use with Dr. Maltz who will testify probably next Monday. I'm also handing to Mr. Darden reports that were faxed into his office last night, a two-page report from Herbert McDonald, as well as a two-page report by a Dr. William Martel which Dr. Maltz used and will perhaps refer to during the course of Dr. Maltz' testimony.

THE COURT: This is as to the arthritic condition?

MR. DOUGLAS: Correct. Martel is a radiologist about the x-rays.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. BAILEY: Excuse me, your Honor. For purposes of scheduling, I have a witness on a tight, tight schedule. Will you start again at 1:00 or 1:30 as Mr. Cochran requested?

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran requested 1:30.

MR. BAILEY: That is acceptable to the Court?

THE COURT: It is.

MR. BAILEY: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.

THE COURT: Let's have the jury.

(Brief pause.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Let the record reflect that we have been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

THE COURT: Good to see you again. All right. Mr. Robert Heidstra, would you resume the witness stand, please.

Robert Heidstra, the witness on the stand at the time of the evening adjournment, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

MR. HEIDSTRA: Good morning.

THE COURT: All right. Good morning, Mr. Heidstra.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Good morning.

THE COURT: Mr. Heidstra, you are reminded, sir, that you are still under oath. And would you pull the microphone close to you, please. Thank you. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Certainly, your Honor. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: Good morning, Mr. Heidstra.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Good morning.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: Mr. Heidstra, yesterday at the end of the day we had been discussing your observations on the evening of June 12th, 1994, the Sunday, and I think we had concluded talking about the meeting that you had had--

THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. Deputy Magnera, one of our jurors needs a pen.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Proceed.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: I believe we had discussed the time that you came down for the meeting in this building with Miss Clark and Mr. Hodgman and Detective Payne. Do you recall that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And after that particular conversation with those two Deputy District Attorneys and with the police officer, did you have occasion to talk to any other police officers after--after that conversation?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you have occasion to meet with a lawyer on the Prosecution team this year, during 1995?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, sir.

MR. COCHRAN: You didn't meet with Mr. Christopher Darden?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Later on, yes; later.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. When was that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That was on memorial day.

MR. COCHRAN: Memorial day of this year?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: That is of 1995?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: And when we talk about Mr. Darden, you mean the gentleman here in the middle, Mr. Darden?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That's it, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And was Mr. Darden in the company of anyone else?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Two detectives.

MR. COCHRAN: When he came out to see you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Two detectives.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you presently recall the names of either of those detectives who were with Mr. Darden?

MR. HEIDSTRA: One name was Steven--Stevens.

MR. COCHRAN: Mark Stevens, kind of a large gentleman?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, right, right.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you remember the name of the other gentleman, if it was a gentleman?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. How was this meeting arranged on memorial day or thereabouts involving Mr. Darden, Mr. Stevens and this other individual?

MR. HEIDSTRA: They called me at eight o'clock in the morning.

MR. COCHRAN: Where did they call you, sir?

MR. HEIDSTRA: At home.

MR. COCHRAN: At your residence there on Dorothy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah--yes.

MR. COCHRAN: You had a conversation with them?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. They told me they wanted to--

MR. DARDEN: Objection, hearsay.

MR. HEIDSTRA: They wanted--

THE COURT: Mr. Darden, if you are going to make an objection, we need to stand so I can see that you are making an objection. Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: With regard--

THE COURT: Also, Mr. Heidstra, would you allow Mr. Cochran to finish asking the question before you start your answer.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sorry. Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, the question was you had a conversation--without telling us what it was--you had a conversation with somebody from the D.A.'s office; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: That was about eight o'clock in the morning?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And after that conversation did the three gentleman that you have spoken about show up where you live?

MR. HEIDSTRA: At ten o'clock, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Was that the time you agreed upon?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And they came out to Dorothy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And so that we are clear, that was in the month of--toward of end of May of 1995; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And once they got to your particular residence--you have never met Mr. Darden before, had you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you have a conversation with these three individuals at that point?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you invite them into your house or did you go someplace?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, I sat there and I have my dogs. I have a small apartment so we went outside for a walk.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. All right. Was it your idea to go for a walk?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I said, "Let's go around the block."

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you walk around the block?

MR. HEIDSTRA: We did.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You were accompanied by--you didn't take your dogs with you this time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: One dog I took with me.

MR. COCHRAN: Which dog did you take?

MR. HEIDSTRA: The younger dog.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. By the way, with the Court's indulgence with regard to those dogs--I don't have a dog fixation, but there is some merit here, your Honor. With regard to those dogs, will you tell us how old are those two dogs.

THE COURT: We heard this yesterday.

MR. COCHRAN: I'm not sure the one dog--

THE COURT: I thought we heard that one was 14.

MR. COCHRAN: Not the other one.

THE COURT: All right. Proceed.

MR. COCHRAN: Bear with me.

MR. COCHRAN: The one dog, how old is the oldest dog?

MR. HEIDSTRA: He is about 14 now.

MR. COCHRAN: How old is the youngest dog?

MR. HEIDSTRA: 11 now I guess.

MR. COCHRAN: The youngest dog is 11?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Does the oldest dog suffer with some kind of an ailment?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes, arthritis in the back legs.

MR. COCHRAN: He has what?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Arthritis.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. And is that--how does that affect his ability to walk when you go out with him?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, irrelevant.

MR. COCHRAN: It becomes very relevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: You can answer.

MR. HEIDSTRA: He can walk very slowly, very slow, very slow.

MR. COCHRAN: Does that affect the time it takes you to complete your walk?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, sure, sure, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you took one of the dogs with you, I presume the younger one, that morning?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. And you had a conversation with these three gentlemen?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: As you walked, did you show him anything or did you just talk?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, we were just talking about--asking questions.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You responded to their questions?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And did Mr. Darden ask you some questions?

MR. HEIDSTRA: He did.

MR. COCHRAN: What did Mr. Darden ask you?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, hearsay.

MR. COCHRAN: I think I can link it up, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. What did Mr. Darden ask you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: What kind of work I did and if I was legally in this country.

MR. COCHRAN: He asked if you were legal?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: You are a legal citizen, aren't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: What else did he ask you?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor, hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, how were you treated by Mr. Darden and these men who came out to see you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Pretty cruel, pretty--

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

THE COURT: Sustained. It is irrelevant.

MR. COCHRAN: It is irrelevant, your Honor?

THE COURT: It is irrelevant.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. The conversation, can you describe for us the tone of the conversation between these three men as they asked you questions, specifically Mr. Darden?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not very friendly.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you try to respond to them as they talked to you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you try to be friendly and cooperative?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: Did Mr. Darden's tone toward you ever become friendly at any time during the conversation?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not--

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor. This is completely irrelevant.

THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the objection to that particular question.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. I will ask another one.

THE COURT: But we have established the tone.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: Did that tone remain the same throughout?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: Unfriendly tone?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: How long were you with these three men on that date of memorial day of 1995?

MR. HEIDSTRA: About 25 minutes, something like that.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, yesterday in your testimony, you indicated to us that you had heard a gate clanging. Do you remember that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And at the time you heard this gate clanging, you couldn't see which gate that was, could you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no.

MR. COCHRAN: And although you described for us at first the dog that you believed was the Akita barking, were you ever able to see the Akita that night?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never saw him.

MR. COCHRAN: But you thought that you recognized that particular bark, having heard it before?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Was that the same thing as with the black dog?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, yes, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, with regard to this case, did you have occasion to hear or see the opening statements in this particular case back in January of 1995?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And when--did you see it on television or what did you do?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Excuse me. I was home.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You observed it on television?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you hear statements regarding the times that certain things had happened out there on Bundy on June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And when you heard those things, what--how did that affect you?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, irrelevant.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Very surprised.

THE COURT: Wait, wait. Mr. Heidstra, when an objection is made and I sustain the objection, you are not to answer the question.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Okay.

MR. DARDEN: Motion to strike, your Honor.

THE COURT: Stricken.

MR. COCHRAN: When you heard the opening statements did you at that point make any statements?

MR. DARDEN: Objection.

MR. COCHRAN: He can answer that yes or no.

MR. DARDEN: Irrelevant.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you at any time after the opening statements talk to anybody from the Prosecution at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, not--no, no, no.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you talk to--did you make any statements to anybody else at that time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, in this conversation that you had with Mr. Darden and these two gentlemen, did they ever suggest anything to you at all?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, vague.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you--did the subject of where you come from ever come up?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Was anything said about that--may I approach, your Honor?

MR. COCHRAN: May we approach just a moment regarding this?

THE COURT: Sustained as hearsay.

MR. COCHRAN: May we approach with this?

THE COURT: No. Sustained as hearsay.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, I want to ask a question and I--all right. Well, before I ask the question I would like to tell you about that question, I think.

THE COURT: With the court reporter, please.

(The following proceedings were held at the bench:)

THE COURT: All right. We are over at the side bar. Mr. Cochran, where are you going with this?

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

THE COURT: You've already gotten out that he was asked about his immigration status.

MR. COCHRAN: Right. But he also--what he would say is that this is an offer of proof of what he told me, but Darden asked where he was from and he says, "What are you doing here? Don't you want to go back there" or words to that effect. He took that has an indication that they are saying you should get lost or get out of here, and he was offended by that, so before I would ask that in front of the jury I wanted to at least preview that to you. That is what he indicated to me. So I wanted to ask him that question. And it would be improper if that happened. And I wasn't there, but that is what the witness says and he says they were unfriendly and nasty to him and asked about his immigration status. They had no interest at all in any of the events of what he had seen, but they just wanted to know about him and his job and that sort of thing and he felt they treated him badly as a citizen. That is what he felt. So before I asked that question, as I promised you, side bars, I promised you I would come up. And it goes to their whole stand and rush to judgment aspect.

MR. DARDEN: I'm extremely disappointed, your Honor, in Mr. Cochran, that he would resort to this type of character assassination of myself. In any event, that is completely irrelevant. And so that the record is clear, we had a talk about your Honor and France and I asked him when was the last time he had been home. I already knew that he was an American citizen because he had told me that he was. And I asked him where he was from because I heard that he was from France and we had a conversation with another French woman and I wanted to know if he spoke French and where he was from and that will become apparent I think as we go through the cross-examination. But you know, this is low. This is low.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, first of all, talking about low, they asked questions in front of a jury. I have the dignity and integrity to ask you before I say anything. I have an obligation to my client. If a witness tells me something, I have an obligation to come up here and ask you, not like they do in front of the jury. I'm telling what you the witness has indicated to me.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Cochran is desperate. None of that happened.

MR. COCHRAN: Desperate?

MR. DARDEN: I should indicate this as well. I was actually very ill that morning, but I know you don't care much about that.

THE COURT: I take it this is a 352 objection because what is said to him and what his impressions were as to what he meant is really not tremendously relevant at this point.

MR. COCHRAN: Relevant--isn't it? Well, your Honor--relevant, your Honor? Here is the reason it is relevant, and I will submit it after that. We hear all this talk about a search for truth. We find out there are all these witnesses that have come forward, who they know about, credible, who have information that was far different than what they have said. Truth according to the Prosecution, and then there is the truth, and so then if these people are all relevant and the witnesses are--who they don't want fit into their timeline are treated in a certain way. Isn't that relevant, your Honor?

THE COURT: It is relevant and these people come in through the Defense and testify.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra does fit into our timeline.

THE COURT: But his reaction to something that was said, first of all, is hearsay. Secondly, I think there is a good 352 so I will sustain the objection.

THE COURT: Thank you.

(The following proceedings were held in open court:)

THE COURT: Thank you, counsel. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: During this conversation that you had with these gentlemen, who did most of the talking from the Prosecution side?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Mr. Darden.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did the other two men talk at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Very little.

MR. COCHRAN: It was mostly Mr. Darden and you responded?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, yes, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, your Honor, I would like to put one of the boards back up, if I can.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: You have described for us that you were an auto detailer; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And before June 12th of 1994, you had never personally met Mr. O.J. Simpson, had you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, never.

MR. COCHRAN: And I think you indicated yesterday, however, that you had--had occasion to work and detail cars throughout the Brentwood area; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Had you ever had occasion to go over and represent or work for a client over on Rockingham?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you do some work for some clients by the name of the Salingers?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: And did the Salingers live right next door to where Mr. O.J. Simpson lives?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And I want you to just turn briefly, if the Court would allow, and look at 1239 there, which is a Defense exhibit, no. 1239. And do you see Mr. O.J. Simpson's home on that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that a fair and accurate portrayal of his residence as you saw it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: The times before June, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure, exactly. Right, right.

MR. COCHRAN: While you are standing there, would you point out and would you show the ladies and gentlemen of the jury where your clients, the Salingers, live.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Next door.

MR. COCHRAN: He is pointing to the house immediately--

THE COURT: Immediately to the south.

MR. COCHRAN: --south of Mr. Simpson's house?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly.

MR. COCHRAN: Now--had you ever at any time even seen O.J. Simpson at any time while you were at the Salingers?

MR. HEIDSTRA: One time I guess. Just one time.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you ever talk to him?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never.

MR. COCHRAN: Just saw him in passing?

MR. HEIDSTRA: He saw me in the yard with Mr. Salinger one time.

MR. COCHRAN: That is the only time you ever saw him?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Let's talk about this. On that particular night, on the night that we have been talking about on June 12th, I would like to go back for just a moment. You described for us yesterday that you--after you heard these sounds that you described for us yesterday you continued on through this alley that paralleled Bundy and at some point you approached and you were trying to go down to Dorothy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And at some point you did walk and get to Dorothy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, Dorothy.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you pointed to Dorothy on People's 26?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And at some point did you ever see any vehicles in and around that area as you got to Dorothy Street that particular night?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes. I walked up a little two, three houses up the street.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So that we are clear, your Honor, I think he is indicating that he had proceeded up Dorothy.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: In the direction of where your house is?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

THE COURT: Indicating eastbound on Dorothy.

MR. COCHRAN: Eastbound on Dorothy, as I understand it, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: And at that point did you see any vehicle at any point?

MR. HEIDSTRA: When I looked back to Bundy where the noise came from.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MR. HEIDSTRA: And there is a street light on the corner of Bundy and Dorothy.

MR. COCHRAN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: And when I was looking there from the commotion, I was listening to two minutes.

MR. COCHRAN: About what time would that be now that you are looking about?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Around quarter to 11:00.

MR. COCHRAN: Around 10:45?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Quarter to 11:00?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: You looked back and before that--let me ask you, had you seen my cars around that location?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You looked back. Did you see any cars at this point or any traffic out on Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. Two cars were passing on Bundy going south and north, I guess.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Two cars were passing on Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Going south; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: And south would be down toward what street, toward Wilshire?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Toward Wilshire.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you--could you describe those two cars at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. They went fast on Bundy.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. They were moving kind of quickly?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: You couldn't--

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't remember those.

MR. COCHRAN: So that we are clear, when you saw these two cars, sir, point again to People's 26 and show us generally where you were at the time you saw these cars?

MR. HEIDSTRA: About here, (Indicating).

MR. COCHRAN: All right. The cars were going down Bundy, south on Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you see any other car at any point?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. When I was looking there I saw from the west side of Dorothy, the side of Nicole's condo came out of the darkness, a white car into the light, the street light on the corner.

MR. COCHRAN: Which direction was that car going?

MR. HEIDSTRA: From Dorothy on this side and it stopped here on the corner of Dorothy and Bundy.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did that car make a turn or did it go up Dorothy or what did it do?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It made a turn.

MR. COCHRAN: Which direction did it go?

MR. HEIDSTRA: A right turn and went south.

MR. COCHRAN: Are you sure that vehicle went south?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: That would be toward Wilshire Boulevard?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Toward Wilshire Boulevard.

MR. COCHRAN: What color was the color?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Very light color, white or light.

MR. COCHRAN: Light or white?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was white or something.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you see that car very clearly?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I could clearly see it.

MR. COCHRAN: How far away were you from the car?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I would say 50 yards at least.

MR. COCHRAN: 50 yards?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: About 150 feet?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Could you see anybody, whether there was one, two, three people in that car?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, nothing.

MR. COCHRAN: Why was that why couldn't you tell?

MR. HEIDSTRA: The distance I could not see.

MR. COCHRAN: You were too far away?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Could you describe anything about the person or persons in that car at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. But is it your testimony that that car came up Dorothy and then proceeded right to go south on Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, it went south on Bundy.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, did you--can you describe generally that car and what kind of a car it appeared to be, if you could?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It appeared to be a wagon car, Jeep like car.

MR. COCHRAN: A wagon or Jeep?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, something around there.

MR. COCHRAN: But you can't tell us what kind of wagon or Jeep that was?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. Not really, no.

MR. COCHRAN: To you it appeared to be light in color?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Could be Blazer or Jeep Cherokee, something like that.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. But you don't know what it was; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, when you talked to the police back early in June of 1994, you told them about seeing this vehicle?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you ever tell the police that vehicle was heading north?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, no.

MR. COCHRAN: You always told them it was heading south?

MR. HEIDSTRA: South.

MR. COCHRAN: So that we are clear, if you proceeded north on Bundy and made a left turn there in going north on Bundy, would that be going toward Sunset?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, sure.

MR. COCHRAN: And south would be going toward Wilshire; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And the Rockingham residence that I showed you earlier, that Rockingham residence is which way, toward north?

MR. HEIDSTRA: North of Sunset.

MR. COCHRAN: So you are sure that all these three cars that you saw turned going right or south on Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you recall seeing--you may resume the seat now.

MR. HEIDSTRA: (Witness complies.) yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you recall seeing any other cars that you haven't told us about?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no.

MR. COCHRAN: Just the three you have now talked about?

THE COURT: Excuse me, Mr. Cochran. I have asked Mr. Heidstra now twice to allow you to finish asking your questions. You are going to have to be a little more precise on how you ask your questions. Mr. Heidstra, please let Mr. Cochran finish asking you the question before you start to answer, please. All right.

MR. COCHRAN: Certainly, your Honor.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sorry.

MR. COCHRAN: Certainly.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you recall seeing any other cars that night when you were in the location of Dorothy approaching your house?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So that all you saw that night were the three cars you have now told us about?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. After you saw these three cars that were heading south on Bundy, where did you next go? Where did you continue at that point?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I continued to go back home.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And then you continued on to your house that you have described for us yesterday?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you got back home right at about eleven o'clock?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor, leading.

MR. COCHRAN: Strike that.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: I will restate it, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: What time did you get back home?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, I stood in front of where I live for a couple of minutes listening to the commotion of the dogs. They were still barking.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MR. HEIDSTRA: And all of a sudden they went slow and slow barking and I went inside.

MR. COCHRAN: What time was that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was about 11:00 because I turned the TV on the local channel and the news was just starting, just announcing the news on the local channels.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, you've come here today and yesterday pursuant to subpoena from the Defense?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you don't prefer one side of this lawsuit over the other, do you?

MR. DARDEN: Objection. That is leading, your Honor.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Are you here to favor either side in this case at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all.

MR. COCHRAN: Why are you here?

MR. HEIDSTRA: To tell the truth what I saw and what I heard.

MR. COCHRAN: Have you told us the truth here?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, sir.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very much for coming.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Thank you, your Honor. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN

MR. DARDEN: Good morning, Mr. Heidstra.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Good morning, Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: This is the second time we have said good morning to each other; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, exactly, just before.

MR. DARDEN: When we came into court this morning we greeted each other?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Did I understand you to testify, Mr. Heidstra, that when you arrived at the end of the alley at Dorothy that you saw a vehicle at the corner of Dorothy and Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: When I walked up the street a few houses and then I looked back toward Bundy and then I saw one of the cars coming down from the west side of Dorothy.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, Nicole Simpson's condo was on the west side of Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And Dorothy is just a little bit south of Nicole Brown Simpson's condo?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly, exactly.

MR. DARDEN: So the vehicle that you saw then was going west toward Bundy, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, it came to Bundy.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. The vehicle stopped at Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And this vehicle, Mr. Heidstra, it was white, wasn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: White, yeah, very light.

MR. DARDEN: It was a sports--

MR. HEIDSTRA: I would say white.

MR. DARDEN: It was a sport utility vehicle, wasn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: A sport?

MR. DARDEN: Yeah.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, it was like a Jeep or wagon car.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. A four-wheel drive sort of vehicle?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Probably, yes.

MR. DARDEN: It wasn't a car, was it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was a car, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Well, was it a car in the sense that it was like a van or a truck?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, it was like a wagon, wagon car, Jeep like car.

MR. DARDEN: When you talked to the police initially, you told them that you thought that the vehicle might be a Blazer; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. They asked me if was a Blazer. It looks like a Blazer car.

MR. DARDEN: And did it look like a Blazer?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, that size of car.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: The size of the car was like a Blazer.

MR. DARDEN: Ford Blazer?

MR. COCHRAN: Just a moment. I object. The Blazer is not a Ford.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry.

THE COURT: Excuse me. You need to stand.

MR. COCHRAN: Objection.

THE COURT: Thank you. Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry.

THE COURT: Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: A Blazer is made by Chevrolet?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you also said that it resembled a Ford; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that.

MR. DARDEN: Well, did you tell the police that the vehicle resembled a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never.

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I said it looks like a wagon. I told them, a wagon or Jeep like car.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell the police that the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, sir.

MR. DARDEN: Were you interviewed by the police, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And before we get to that, Mr. Heidstra, you have talked to other people about the vehicle that you saw at Bundy and Dorothy that night; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: You talked to a reporter from channel 2, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And didn't you tell that reporter from channel 2 that the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that. I said it must be a van, a Jeep or a wagon.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell the reporter that the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that.

MR. DARDEN: Are you saying that you did not or are you saying you just don't remember?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall.

MR. DARDEN: Did you see yourself on the news this past Monday night, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Just a little shot, yeah, I saw.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And did you see yourself on the news discussing whether or not the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I just saw little just a shot of it when I came home.

MR. DARDEN: And you know someone named Patricia, don't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And Patricia works at a veterinarian's office?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And she is also French; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, she is French.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you speak French?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I do.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And she speaks French?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you have talked to Patricia?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, we talk.

MR. DARDEN: About your observations that night; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Patricia that the vehicle resembled a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I told her that it was like a wagon, a wagon car, big like a Jeep.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Patricia that the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Like a Blazer, Blazer car. Might have said maybe a Bronco. I don't recall that.

MR. DARDEN: In your opinion does a Chevy Blazer and a Ford Bronco resemble each other.

MR. HEIDSTRA: They resemble each other, I would say so, yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you do detail cars; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And do you detail a Mercedes Benz for a man named Mr. Field?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You have talked to Mr. Field about your observations; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, we did.

MR. DARDEN: And didn't you tell Mr. Field that the vehicle you saw was a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It could have been a Blazer or Ford Bronco. They resemble.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: --please, sir, did you tell Mr. Field that the vehicle you saw looked like a Ford Bronco?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I might have said that. Might have said like it was a Blazer. It could be a Blazer, too.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra--

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't know exactly.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Mr. Field that the vehicle appeared to be a Ford Bronco?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I might have said that probably, but I don't recall that. I said--

(Brief pause.)

MR. DARDEN: You said you might have said that, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Might have said that. He understood that I said it was a Bronco, but I could have said it is like a Blazer or a Jeep car, a light color car.

MR. DARDEN: Did you use the word "Bronco" during your conversation with Mr. Field when you described the vehicle you saw?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't know.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: It may be a long time ago. I don't recall that. I don't recall that at all.

MR. DARDEN: You have given us a detailed account of your walk that night; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And have you attempted to be detailed in your account of what you saw and heard that night?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Can you repeat it again, please?

MR. DARDEN: Have you attempted to provide us with a detailed account?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly, yes.

MR. DARDEN: You have tried to be as accurate as you could possibly be; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I tried to.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, the vehicle that you saw make that right turn from Dorothy onto Bundy, that vehicle had tinted windows, didn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. It looked like tinted windows, yes.

MR. DARDEN: And it had a chrome bumper from the back?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I couldn't see the back. It was too big distance.

MR. DARDEN: Did you ever tell anyone that it had a chrome bumper on the back, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never said--never said that to anybody, not that I remember.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never saw that. Could never see that from the distance.

MR. DARDEN: So the vehicle was white and it had tinted windows?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I object to that. Misstates the testimony. He said light color.

THE COURT: Overruled. Rephrase your question, counsel.

MR. DARDEN: And this vehicle that you saw, when it made that right turn onto Bundy, did you hear the tires screech?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. It accelerated fast but I didn't hear the tires, no.

MR. DARDEN: It accelerated fast?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Pretty fast, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And you noticed that, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I did notice that, yes, sure.

MR. DARDEN: Did you consider that unusual at the time?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of the question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: If the person was in a hurry maybe or something.

MR. DARDEN: Well, did you wonder if that person was in a hurry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, looks like he was in a hurry.

MR. DARDEN: Did you wonder why that person was in a hurry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Why?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no. I don't know the driver. I don't know.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So when this white vehicle that looked like a Bronco with tinted windows--

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of the question, your Honor. Misstates the evidence, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: Did the vehicle look like a Bronco?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I said again like a Blazer. It could have been a Bronco. I don't know.

THE COURT: Excuse me. Mr. Heidstra, when you hear an organization, don't answer the question.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I'm sorry, sir.

THE COURT: Let the attorney finish asking the question before you start your answer. Pull the microphone close to you, please.

MR. HEIDSTRA: (Witness complies.)

THE COURT: Thank you. All right. Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, you testified a little while ago that you are not here to favor either side in this case; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That's correct.

MR. DARDEN: Do you have some financial interest in the outcome of this case, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all. Not at all.

MR. DARDEN: Are you planning on making some money by testifying in this case, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell Patricia Baret--is that how you pronounce her last name, Baret?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I guess so.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell Patricia Baret when this case is finished you are going to make a lot of money?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I didn't say that.

MR. DARDEN: You never told her that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Maybe something might come out of it, but I never said a lot of money.

MR. DARDEN: So you think you might make some money as a result of testifying in this case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Maybe. I don't know.

MR. DARDEN: And you could use a few dollars, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. The apartment that you live in is located on Dorothy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And where in the building is your apartment located?

MR. HEIDSTRA: In the front.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, you mentioned something yesterday about a sub-garage?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sub-garage, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Is your apartment located in the sub-garage?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And your apartment is a one-room apartment; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And you live in that apartment with your two dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: The two elderly dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You live there alone?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Alone, yes.

MR. DARDEN: With the two dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And you lived there for 17 years alone with those two dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And the only kind of work you do is washing cars?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the to the question.

MR. DARDEN: And detailing cars; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of the question.

THE COURT: Hold it. Never mind.

MR. DARDEN: And not to demean you, but that is just how you make your living?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You have dreams of one day having a lot of money, don't you?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: Well, you have a desire--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Everybody I guess would have dreamed to have money.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you have a desire to one day have enough money to purchase a Rolls Royce, don't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, I don't like Rolls Royces.

MR. DARDEN: Now, Mr. Field is a prominent businessman, is he not?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I guess so, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Didn't you tell Mr. Field that as a result of this case that you expected to make enough money to purchase a Rolls Royce?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, never said that. I'm not interested in Rolls Royces in the first place. Maybe another car maybe. That could be.

MR. DARDEN: Well, the car that you have now is a `63 corvette?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, `72 corvette.

MR. DARDEN: `72 corvette. In poor condition, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Pardon?

MR. DARDEN: And it is in poor condition; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Important?

MR. DARDEN: Poor condition?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, it is in poor condition. Sorry.

MR. DARDEN: So you could use a new car?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I wish I had it.

MR. DARDEN: Now, Patricia Baret, she works at the veterinarian's clinic; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: You come in from time to time with your dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Do you also wash the cars there for some of the people?

MR. HEIDSTRA: For the doctor, yes.

MR. DARDEN: So you wash cars in exchange for veterinarian services?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no. They pay me with a check always.

MR. DARDEN: And while you are there, on occasion you talked to Patricia Baret; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Do you go there every week?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Every other week.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you and she talk just about every other week; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not much. She is in the front office and I'm in the back doing the car.

MR. DARDEN: But you always talk with her about the case, don't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sometimes when it comes up. Not all the time.

MR. DARDEN: And when you speak to Miss Baret about the case, you always speak to her in French?

MR. HEIDSTRA: She starts speaking to me in French so I answer in French.

MR. DARDEN: Now, you testified that you do some work for the Salingers; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And they live next door to O.J. Simpson?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

MR. HEIDSTRA: And the Salingers have a maid; is that correct, or they had a maid?

MR. HEIDSTRA: They had a maid.

MR. DARDEN: That maid's name was Rosa Lopez, wasn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, sure.

MR. DARDEN: And Rosa Lopez is someone who is on the Defense witness list, isn't she?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you have spoken to Rosa Lopez?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes, a long time ago.

MR. DARDEN: You spoke to her about the case; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, we talk.

MR. DARDEN: And in response to Mr. Cochran's questions you told us that you met me on memorial day?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I met you on memorial day, yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you talked to Detective Payne, was it, on other occasions?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, that is a long time ago.

MR. DARDEN: But I wasn't the first Prosecutor to come out to your house and speak to you, was I?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was Mr. Payne when the murders happened that he came to my door.

MR. DARDEN: Have you ever met Mr. Hodgman out there?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, I met him once.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You understand that Mr. Hodgman is with the D.A.'s office?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And did you go on a walk with Mr. Hodgman?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, never.

MR. DARDEN: So both Mr. Hodgman and myself have been out to your house; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, Mr. Hodgman, I met him, he passed by with Mr. Payne in a car.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

MR. HEIDSTRA: And I was walking my dogs.

MR. DARDEN: And Mr. Stevens, he is an investigator for my office?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: He has been out to your house a couple of times?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never.

MR. DARDEN: He was out there with me; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That is the first time.

MR. DARDEN: So all in all then you have had, what, four visits then from police officers or Prosecutors in this case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. Mr. Payne most of the time, three times or something.

MR. DARDEN: But you have also had visits from other lawyers, haven't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: From whom?

MR. DARDEN: You have been visited by other lawyers in this case; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Lawyers?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall, no.

MR. DARDEN: Well, do you know F. Lee Bailey?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes. I met him. Sorry, yes.

MR. DARDEN: You understand that he is a lawyer?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Have you met him at your house?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not in my house.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. But you met him somewhere else; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Where did you meet him?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I met him down the street on Bundy and Dorothy. He was there with the investigator.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you spoke to Mr. Bailey?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, we introduced to Mr. Bailey.

MR. DARDEN: But you have spoken to Mr. Bailey on a number of occasions; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, no; only one time.

MR. DARDEN: Only one time?

MR. HEIDSTRA: One time.

MR. DARDEN: Who was the investigator that was with Mr. Bailey?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Mr. McKenna.

MR. DARDEN: How many times have you spoken to Mr. McKenna?

MR. HEIDSTRA: About four or five times at least.

MR. DARDEN: And you and Mr. McKenna had a little experiment going out there at Bundy, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: At the time I met Mr. Bailey?

MR. DARDEN: Well, how about that time? Did you and Mr. McKenna run a little experiment out there?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. He came to my door and introduced me to Mr. Bailey.

MR. DARDEN: Well, Mr. Bailey--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Down the street. Mr. McKenna--

MR. DARDEN: Mr. McKenna came to your door?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And he asked you to walk down to the end of the block and meet Mr. Bailey?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, right, right, right, right.

MR. DARDEN: You testified yesterday that you heard a gate slam; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And when you heard that gate slam--

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: And when you heard that gate--well, you said you heard that gate slam. You heard a gate slam?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, right.

MR. DARDEN: And when you heard that gate slam would you just show us where you were exactly when you heard that gate slam.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Here, (Indicating).

MR. DARDEN: Now, could you just keep the pointer there and come around to the other side.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sorry.

MR. DARDEN: Show us again, please.

MR. HEIDSTRA: (Indicating).

MR. DARDEN: So you were in the alley; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: In the middle of the alley?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right here, (Indicating).

MR. DARDEN: Could you step back up and repeat your answer. My question was were you in the middle of the alley?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Just on the side there from the alley; not in the middle. I don't recall that exactly. I was standing there.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Darden, you are referring to Defense exhibit--

MR. DARDEN: Yes, your Honor. Defense exhibit 1239.

THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. DARDEN: And Mr. Heidstra, this alley is east of Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: So you are in the alley, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Between you and the alley is other--strike that. Between you and Bundy there is a garage; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. There is a garage on the left, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: That garage was in front of you when you heard the gate slam?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And beyond the garage or just beyond the garage and west going west toward Bundy is a house; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, beyond the garage, yeah, there is a house.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So there was a garage and a house between you and that gate?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, exactly.

MR. DARDEN: And then beyond the house there is the sidewalk; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, it is on higher level ground than Nicole's property, so you can hear the sound even better there.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So then there is a garage, a house and a sidewalk between you and that gate at 875 south Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, right, right, right.

MR. DARDEN: And then there is a street, isn't there?

MR. HEIDSTRA: There is Bundy, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. That is a fairly wide street, is it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, two lanes. Pretty wide street.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Then on the opposite side of Bundy, which would be the west side, there is also grass and a sidewalk?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right. It is not very big sidewalk, very small.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And a walkway that leads up to the front of 875 south Bundy, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, that comes out there.

MR. DARDEN: And yet it is your testimony that the gate that you heard slam this night was the gate at 875 south Bundy, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure, because I was just opposite Nicole's condo and the ground I told you is higher level. You can hear the sound even better.

MR. DARDEN: Could you hear--strike that. Could you see the gate at 875 south Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, the garage. I could never see it.

MR. DARDEN: There is no way for you to see the gate at 875 south Bundy, is there?

MR. COCHRAN: Object, your Honor, asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled. It is argumentative, though, the way it is phrased.

MR. DARDEN: Would you agree that it was impossible to see the gate from that location?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I could never see the gate.

MR. DARDEN: Well, how is it then that you formed the opinion that the gate that you heard slam was the gate at 875 south Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Because I passed by with my dogs and I--the Akita has been always behind that gate and I said, boy, that is the gate from the Akita. I was just opposite it.

MR. DARDEN: That is not what you told the police, is it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes. I told them I heard the gate slamming.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You told the police you heard the gate slam?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. Mr. Payne said, "Boy, that must have been Nicole's condo."

MR. DARDEN: And what reason did you give them for forming the opinion that it must have been Nicole Brown's condo?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Because--because of that commotion with the Akita and I knew he lived there.

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true that you told the police--and you talked to the police on June 21st of 1994; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. It must be about that date.

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true that you told the police that in your opinion the sound of the slamming gate came from Nicole Brown's residence because that is the only one in the area with a large metal security gate?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, there is another gate from the neighbors, I guess have a gate there, but it sound for me, because of that Akita, I knew--I said it must be the gate.

MR. DARDEN: There are several gates located on the west side of Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: There is--there is more gates.

MR. DARDEN: Several metal gates?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Metal gates, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Up and down that street, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Next door the big condo has one big one, two or three.

MR. DARDEN: There are gates in front of 875 and the adjoining condo; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: The adjoining, yeah. Yes.

MR. DARDEN: There are gates behind both of those condos, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: You mean on the other side, on the alley side?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, there must be gates there. There are gates there.

MR. DARDEN: Would you agree that there are approximately 21 gates, metal gates, on the buildings located on the west side of Bundy between Gorham and Dorothy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never counted them.

MR. DARDEN: How many would you say there are?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I just noticed the front gate on Bundy. That is it.

MR. DARDEN: Now, you understand, Mr. Heidstra--well, strike that. Was it your understanding that the only way you could make money after this case would be if you came here to testify?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, I never thought about that. I just come here to tell the truth from both sides.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. But do you admit that you told other people that you hoped to make some money off this case when it was over?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I didn't say. Jokingly we talked about it. Like everybody will do, you joke about that, joking.

MR. DARDEN: But you did say that, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I said that, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

MR. HEIDSTRA: But not a lot of money. I said some money maybe.

MR. DARDEN: All right. Could I have one moment, your Honor?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, it is your testimony that you usually walk your dog at ten o'clock; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That is my routine, yes.

MR. DARDEN: But on this particular night you say you were running a little late?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. I was reading the paper and I didn't look at the time.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So you got up and you left the house?

MR. HEIDSTRA: My dog gave me the signal and I look at my watch and it was quarter past 10:00.

MR. DARDEN: Looked at your watch?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And your watch said a quarter past 10:00?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, sure, sure.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I knew it because I was late. I said, you are right, we have to go, it is quarter past 10:00.

MR. DARDEN: When you spoke to the police on June 21st, 1994, did you tell them that you looked at your watch before leaving?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of the question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: All right. So it was a quarter past 10:00 when you walked outside?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Absolutely.

MR. DARDEN: You took one of the dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Two.

MR. DARDEN: You took both dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Both of them.

MR. DARDEN: Were those dogs on leashes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: One--the older would be--I take on my leash. He doesn't walk too good.

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true that you never walk your dogs on a leash?

MR. HEIDSTRA: One I have on the leash, but the other one is always on the leash because he won't come with me, simple as that.

MR. DARDEN: So you do always walk one of the dogs on a leash?

MR. HEIDSTRA: The older one because he is too slow. I have to pull him with me.

MR. DARDEN: Is that yes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, about this routine, this ten o'clock routine that you have in terms of walking the dog? Isn't it true that you walk those dogs at any given time during the night; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no, no.

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true that you are always outside walking around with one of those dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: When I'm at home and I don't work, I do all the time, but when I work and I come home at six o'clock, I am immediately out.

MR. DARDEN: You walk the dog at least four times a night, don't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, sir. I walk them at six o'clock and then at eight o'clock I walk the younger dog because he needs more exercise, and then at ten o'clock I walk the two a short walk around the block.

MR. DARDEN: Don't you walk the dogs at midnight sometimes on occasion?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never. Midnight, no, I go to sleep.

MR. DARDEN: So no one could possibly see you then out walking the dog at midnight; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form. Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: At any rate, you say you left at 10:15?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: It was your intention at that time to walk around the block; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: That is the route you usually walk?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And so as you left your apartment you went east on Dorothy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you went down to the corner?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: By the way, you--strike that. Sometimes you don't actually walk the dog, correct? Sometimes you just let the dogs run around in front of the building?

MR. HEIDSTRA: The younger one stays in front of the building sometime. He is very disciplined.

MR. DARDEN: You do that often, don't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: When I'm home I let them out and the door is always open.

MR. DARDEN: You let the dogs run around in lieu of taking them for a walk?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Instead of a walk?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no.

MR. DARDEN: All your neighbors complain about you letting those dogs run around the front of the apartment, don't they?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. He is just in front of my apartment and I never had a complaint from anybody, never.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So you leave your building and you walk over to--what street did you walk over to?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That night?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I went to Westgate.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You went to Westgate and you made a left?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I went north on Westgate.

MR. DARDEN: When you got to the corner, what did you do?

MR. HEIDSTRA: On Gorham--I went west on Gorham.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So you made a left at Gorham?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And you went west?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I went down the block of Gorham.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You walked over to Bundy, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And it was as you approached Bundy that you heard a dog barking?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. It was when I reached the corner of Bundy and Gorham, what comes together, from nowhere hell broke loose with the Akita. From nowhere he start to bark.

MR. DARDEN: That was the first time that you heard the dog barking?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes. I was very surprised. It was so quiet at night as can be around there.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You hadn't heard the dog barking prior to that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sometime before I walk with my dogs across the street on Bundy he was barking behind that gate.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. But let's talk about that night, June 13th.

MR. HEIDSTRA: That night, sorry, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You hadn't heard the dog barking prior to your arrival at the corner?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: Is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Absolutely.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, was the barking loud?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes, panicking or something or confused.

MR. DARDEN: Now, prior to that--well, strike that. Was the dog barking at 10:10?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I was--I was still in my apartment. I never heard a dog bark at that time.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. At 10:15 you were approximately a block away from 875 Bundy; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: 10:15 I left my apartment. 10:15 I was just in front of my apartment.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So you were about a block away?

MR. HEIDSTRA: A block away, yeah, sure.

MR. DARDEN: Now, you don't know whether or not that dog--that dog's bark had been softer--softer prior to 10:30?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to that, your Honor. Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: Correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never heard it, no, no, never heard the dog barking.

MR. DARDEN: Have you heard that saying, you know, when a tree falls in the forest there is no one there to hear it, it doesn't make noise?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to this poetry.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: A poor attempt at poetry, if that is what it is, but have you ever heard that saying?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: Well, had the dog's bark been softer prior to 10:30?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: You wouldn't have heard it, correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, that is speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I have never heard.

MR. COCHRAN: Just a moment.

THE COURT: Wait. Proceed.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You don't know if the dog had been barking prior to your leaving your house?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, not at all. I didn't hear nothing.

MR. DARDEN: All you can tell us is when you first heard the dog bark; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly.

MR. DARDEN: Don't know where the dog was at 10:15, do you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: At ten--no.

MR. DARDEN: 10:15?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no, no, no.

MR. DARDEN: You don't know whether or not the dog was in front of 875 south Bundy at 10:15?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, at all, no.

MR. DARDEN: You don't know if the dog was upstairs in the condo with Sydney and Justin at 10:15?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, this is speculation.

MR. DARDEN: Is that correct?

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: You don't know if the dog was at the rear gate at 875 south Bundy at 10:15; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, because I just left my apartment. I don't know, no.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. When dogs are in distress do they make noises other than just barking?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I guess wailing maybe or something, you know.

MR. DARDEN: Do they make a noise that sort of sounds like a cry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Could be, yeah, sure.

MR. DARDEN: Sounds a bit like a human cry, doesn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You don't know whether or not that Akita was standing over Nicole's body crying at 10:15, do you?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I object to the form of that question.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: And you can't testify to what other people heard? You can only testify to what you heard; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, that was the only one I've heard.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I was there. I was the only one who heard that dog.

MR. DARDEN: Well, my question to you is this: You can't testify to what other people may have heard?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, sorry, no, no.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Now, you didn't see anyone walking on Gorham and Bundy, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Nobody, nobody. It was very quiet there.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't see a woman in white pants walking at Gorham and Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, I didn't see anybody.

MR. DARDEN: Did you see a Nissan make a U-turn?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Where? On Bundy?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no traffic at all. There was no traffic at all.

MR. DARDEN: No traffic at all?

MR. HEIDSTRA: When I came down from Gorham, no, nothing.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. No vehicle traffic?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not that I recall, no.

MR. DARDEN: No pedestrian traffic?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't see two women standing outside talking about how eerie the night was?

MR. HEIDSTRA: On Gorham you say or on Bundy?

MR. DARDEN: On Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, because I didn't--I just arrive on Bundy. I didn't go on Bundy.

MR. DARDEN: How about on Gorham?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Nobody was there. I didn't see anybody.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: I take it that your dogs bark on occasion?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, sometimes somebody at the door.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Has it been your experience that dogs bark and then stop and then bark again?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, they bark, and they stop sometimes, sure.

MR. DARDEN: And then they continue to bark; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. This was an unusual barking.

MR. DARDEN: And the barking that you heard sounded as if the dog was in distress, didn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was surprised, a surprised dog, confused, I would say, something like that.

MR. DARDEN: Now, did you ever tell Mr. Bailey that you hoped to make money as a result of testifying in this case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Mr. McKenna that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no.

MR. DARDEN: Now, you told us that you reached Bundy, you heard the Akita?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You turned around and you proceeded down the alley; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. I decided to go in the alley.

MR. DARDEN: And as you walked south down that alley you say you heard voices?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: Now, the first voice that you heard, how did you describe that voice yesterday?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was, "Hey, hey, hey," three times.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And did you say that that voice sounded like the voice of a young man?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was a clear voice, yes. Sounded like a clear voice.

MR. DARDEN: Did the voice sound like the voice of a young man?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of the question.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't know how young.

MR. COCHRAN: Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Can I answer?

THE COURT: The answer--he has given an answer.

MR. DARDEN: I didn't hear it, I'm sorry.

(Brief pause.)

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell us yesterday that the voice was a youthful voice?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, it sound like a young voice.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And when you heard that voice, you thought that that was the voice of a young white male, didn't you?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: Speculation, conclusion.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: How can he tell if it was a white man, your Honor?

THE COURT: Counsel, overruled. Sit down. The way the question was phrased, if there is a question or statement that was made that says that, that is an appropriate question, counsel. Proceed.

MR. DARDEN: The voice sounded like the voice of a white male?

MR. HEIDSTRA: How could I say that is a white male? I don't know the voice. It could be anybody there.

MR. DARDEN: Did you ever tell Mr. Stevens, my investigator, that it sounded like a white male?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: Never said that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that at all. I said it was a clear voice but never what kind of white or brown or yellow.

MR. DARDEN: And then there was that second voice, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And that second voice, that voice sounded deeper than the first voice, didn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: A little bit, but I couldn't hardly hear it with the dogs, the commotion with two dogs there. It was very short.

MR. DARDEN: Did you ever tell anyone that the second voice was a deep voice?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It was deep, it was deeper than the other one other than, "Hey, hey, hey."

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So the second voice was deeper than the first one?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, a little deeper. I couldn't hardly hear it. It was just very short.

MR. DARDEN: And the second voice that you heard, did it sound to you as if the person with the second voice was older than the person with the first voice?

MR. COCHRAN: Calls for speculation, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: Okay.

THE COURT: Foundational.

MR. DARDEN: Can you tell us whether or not the second voice sounded more mature than the first voice?

MR. COCHRAN: Same objection.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I couldn't say that.

THE COURT: Hold on.

MR. DARDEN: The second voice that you heard sounded like the voice of a black man; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Objected to, your Honor. I object.

THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Of course not.

THE COURT: Wait, WAIT.

MR. COCHRAN: Just a moment.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, would you step into the jury room, please.

(The jury was excused and the following proceedings were held in open court, out of their presence:)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Heidstra, you can step down. Mr. Darden, where are you going with this?

MR. DARDEN: Can we have Mr. Heidstra step outside?

THE COURT: Mr. Heidstra, why don't you step outside.

(Mr. Heidstra exits the courtroom.)

MR. DARDEN: Thank you for the opportunity to explain my position, your Honor. Your Honor, in the discovery we just provided the Defense, and in a statement Patricia Baret gave to Detective Tom Lange, she told Detective Lange that Heidstra told her that he heard what sounded to him to be a young man hollering, "Hey, hey, hey." Heidstra had then stated that he heard the very angry screaming of an older man who sounded black. And that is a good faith basis upon which I am asking these questions, your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: First of all, we have never seen that statement and I resent--the reason I stood before--I resent that statement. You can't tell by somebody's voice whether they sounded black. I don't know who made that statement, Baret or Lange, and I resent that is a racist statement. I don't think you can tell whether somebody is a young--you can tell if it is a child or not--but I resent that entire area and I think it is entirely inappropriate. And we have never seen any statement in that regard. He walked over and handed Mr. Douglas a purported report from Miss Baret, but this statement about whether he sounds black or white is racist and I resent it and that is why I stood and objected. And I think it is totally improper in America at this time in 1995 we have to hear this and endure this.

MR. DARDEN: I didn't make the statement, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, the Court--may I say one thing, your Honor? When I had a question about how Mr. Darden conducted himself on that morning, I approached the bench before I asked it in front of the jury because I think dignity and integrity require that, but to ask that question in front of the jury I think is totally, totally improper. And we have said back in chambers when this case started, when there was a questionable area we had promised you that we would approach the bench on those things. Didn't we not do that?

THE COURT: We did.

MR. COCHRAN: We have kept that word and they violated it again, so I resent that.

MR. DARDEN: I have always considered the question of race in this case, your Honor, to be questionable. If this is the witness' statement, then he is the racist and not me, but that is what you are suggesting.

MR. COCHRAN: I didn't say that.

THE COURT: Wait, wait.

MR. DARDEN: That is what has created a lot of problems for myself and my family, statements that you make about me and race, Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor--

THE COURT: Wait, wait, wait. I'm going to take a recess right now because I am so mad at both of you guys I'm about to hold both of you in contempt. We will take 15. If I see this conduct again from either of you two--

MR. DARDEN: I apologize, your Honor.

THE COURT: It will take more than that.

(Recess.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. All counsel are present. Mr. Simpson is present. The jury is not present. Counsel, I have warned counsel for both sides previously that the Court will not tolerate the personal attacks that have been exchanged and that started again this morning. All counsel are on notice that the next time that happens there will be severe sanctions. The issue before the Court is whether or not the Prosecution can attempt to impeach Mr. Heidstra. Mr. Heidstra, would you step outside, please.

(Mr. Heidstra exits the courtroom.)

THE COURT: The issue before the Court is whether or not the Prosecution can attempt to impeach Mr. Heidstra's testimony with statements alleged to have been made to other persons that are inconsistent with his statement to the jury here in court. Under 1235 of the evidence code there is a required compliance with evidence code section 770, that the person be confronted with or challenged or not released, one or the other, and that appears to be the process that I have seen here. To wave the racism flag at this point I think is not germane to the topic. The issue is was this statement made. The content of the statement, however repugnant, depending upon what your interpretation of the statement may be, is not particularly relevant. I have allowed the same type of impeachment for Detective Fuhrman. All right. Let's have Mr. Heidstra.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Heidstra, would you resume the witness stand, please. All right. Good morning again, Mr. Heidstra.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Good morning, Judge.

THE COURT: I want you to understand that I'm not mad at you, but I have several things on my mind. Would you please let the attorneys answer the question. Take a breath.

MR. HEIDSTRA: "Sustained" is no talking, shut up?

THE COURT: Correct. Let's have the jurors, please.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Could I have some water?

THE COURT: Mrs. Robertson, agua.

(Brief pause.)

MS. CLARK: Your Honor, while the jury is coming out can we approach briefly off the record?

THE COURT: No. Let's finish the morning.

MS. CLARK: Okay. I just--

THE COURT: Let's finish the morning.

(Brief pause.)

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, I wanted to lay a foundation by placing Miss Baret's statement on the elmo.

THE COURT: I don't think so.

MR. DARDEN: No? Okay.

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. All right. Let the record reflect that we have been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Ladies and gentlemen, from time to time things occur that make it necessary for me to immediately discuss things with the attorneys. I want you to understand that you should ignore any such actions taken by the Court. You should not interpret that as an indication that the Court has an opinion as to the conduct of the attorneys or as to any of the witnesses who are testifying. Ignore any actions that the Court takes. You are to form your own opinions based upon the evidence and the law as it is presented to you here in court. Mr. Darden, you may continue with your cross-examination.

MR. DARDEN: Thank you, your Honor. May I have People's next in order?

THE CLERK: 500.

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, I have here a one-page statement. May it be marked People's 500?

THE COURT: People's 500.

(Peo's 500 for id = 1-page document)

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, let me show you a statement, a single-page document which has been marked People's 500. For the record, your Honor, I have blackened out the address and phone number of the--

THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. DARDEN: --the person indicated in the statement.

MR. DARDEN: Please.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, you have already testified that you know Patricia Baret, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Correct.

MR. DARDEN: You have discussed with her in the past your observations and perceptions the night of June 12th, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, did you tell--strike that. You have told us that you left your house at 10:15?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Miss Baret that you left your house a little after 10:00?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, 10:15.

MR. DARDEN: You never told Miss Baret that you left your house a little after 10:00?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, never.

MR. DARDEN: And you have told us that--well, strike that. Did you tell Miss Baret that the first voice that you heard, the voice that yelled, "Hey, hey, hey," did you tell Miss Baret that that voice seemed to be the voice of a young man?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, a clear young man, sound like a young adult.

MR. DARDEN: And in response to "Hey, hey, hey," you heard another voice; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Very short, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And that second voice, was that voice loud?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not loud, not very loud.

MR. DARDEN: But you could hear it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, over the dogs, the commotion of the dogs.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Could you determine whether or not the second voice that you heard sounded angry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I couldn't say that for sure. It was like an argument or something.

MR. DARDEN: Well, didn't you tell Miss Baret that the second voice that you heard sounded very angry?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not very angry. I said it was an argument, like an argument, fast talking.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Like everyone, I'm sure you've heard a number of different people speak; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Older people, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: Young people?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Children.

MR. DARDEN: Caucasian people?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Black people, Chinese, you name it.

MR. DARDEN: The second voice that you heard, could you tell whether or not that second voice sounded like the voice of an older man?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Maybe what--what do you mean by "Older man"? Maybe older than the other person maybe, yes, could be.

MR. DARDEN: Well, was it your opinion that the voice of the second man belonged to a man older than the voice of the first man?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It could be an older man, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you told Miss Baret that the second voice was the voice of an older man, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You did tell her that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: (No audible response.)

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And were you able to determine the ethnicity of the person who you say was the second voice?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to that--the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no.

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true that you told Patricia Baret that the second voice, which would be the older man, sounded black?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never said that, no, never. Never said that ever. I couldn't hear that voice.

MR. DARDEN: I think we need to approach for a moment, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. With the court reporter.

(The following proceedings were held at the bench:)

THE COURT: We are over at the side bar. Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, the next sentence in the statement, and this is in quotes is that--well, it indicates that the witness told Patricia Baret, "I know it was O.J., it had to be him." And that is going to be the next question.

MR. COCHRAN: Object to that. First of all, I object to the foundation. I can tell you he is going to deny that because I spoke to him during the recess, but more importantly than that, without a further foundation, the answer that--there is no testimony he ever heard O.J. talk ever before. He indicates he saw him one other time at his property when he was next door to the Salingers and there was no indication he ever heard him talk or whatever. And while we are up here, you should probably look at the statement all the way through because there is a statement about Mr. Darden. Are you going to elicit that, too?

MR. DARDEN: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Are you going to elicit that? Let him the read the statement.

MR. DARDEN: I was going to put it on the elmo.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: It is your contention that he knows it was O.J. on the basis of the voice?

MR. DARDEN: Well, I'm going to ask him. I will lay the foundation, if necessary, but this is his opinion. This is opinion and he has already stated that opinion publicly. I just didn't want to run into a buzz saw.

THE COURT: Yes, you should be wise to stay away from the buzz saw today and everyday. The problem is, the way it is couched, "I know it was O.J. it had to be him" doesn't say "I'm positive" or "I know it is him because I saw him or because I heard him," so I might sustain a 352 objection. You can try to lay a foundation here, but I have a feeling it is speculation.

MR. COCHRAN: 352--while we are up here, save some time. You don't like us coming up here.

THE COURT: I don't like either of you guys today.

MR. COCHRAN: I think that is unfair.

THE COURT: No, don't say anything about it.

MR. COCHRAN: Right. I have to stand up for what I believe.

THE COURT: I understand that.

MR. COCHRAN: You have to understand that I am a man and I feel strongly about racial issues.

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran--

MR. COCHRAN: I'm going to always do that.

THE COURT: I'm going to tell you one more time, I don't want to hear any more about it.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. I want to tell you how I feel. Judge, while we are up here, can we finally get an offer of proof of where he's going to go, because there is also some other statement attached here to that that I think may ultimately be relevant, and I want to show you one thing to save some time. The statement of this man field, first of all, there is no where in any of these statements anything about a bumper, the color of the chrome bumper, anything. I haven't seen anything about that or about tinted windshields, so there is nothing in any statements that I have now been given. In addition to that, read this part. Want to read this into the record. He asked some questions about making money. Here is what Heidstra supposedly told Mr. Field. "Heidstra stated that he was going to make a lot of money because the People of the District Attorney's office said so. Stated he would make enough money to purchase a Rolls Royce." Now, at the preliminary hearing there was testimony--Patty Jo Fairbanks had indicated to the witness Camacho, "Make a lot of money"--and some of these things you are going to find on redirect--sold stories to Current Affair and to Hard Copy, so they are making money. This guy hasn't. And so I am just asking you, I want to go into that, which becomes very relevant.

THE COURT: Going into Camacho or statements made by Heidstra to Patty Jo Fairbanks?

MR. COCHRAN: Statements from People from the D.A.'s office about him making a lot of money.

MR. DARDEN: I have no objection, because I'm going to go into, as you can see from the other statement, this guy apparently just wants to testify. He don't care who he testifies for. And so I'm going to go into that.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. DARDEN: I have no objection.

THE COURT: I agree. If somebody mentioned making money from the D.A.'s office, you can go into that. Okay. Thank you.

(The following proceedings were held in open court:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, counsel. Proceed.

MR. DARDEN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. DARDEN: You told us earlier, Mr. Heidstra, that you had on occasion done some work for the Salingers, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes, regularly.

MR. DARDEN: And on the exhibit up here which is Defense 1239, I believe, the Salinger residence is to the right of the photograph?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, sir.

MR. DARDEN: Directly next door to the Defendant's home on Rockingham; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And how long have you been working for the Salingers?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, five, six--six years at least.

MR. DARDEN: And how many times a week would you go up to the Salingers home to wash or detail their cars?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Every other week.

MR. DARDEN: So you have been going up there every other week for five years?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Now, had you ever met the Defendant, Mr. Simpson, that is, prior to June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: You mean Rosa Lopez?

MR. DARDEN: No, the Defendant, Mr. Simpson?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sorry.

MR. DARDEN: Had you ever met him, that is, prior to June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I saw him once in the yard, one time in the yard, but never talked.

MR. DARDEN: You would be working out in the yard sometimes; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I work in the garage next to Mr. Simpson's house.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. The garage is directly next to Mr. Simpson's house?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, it is next--

MR. DARDEN: You have to let me finish talking, otherwise she won't get us both down. And even though you only saw Mr. Simpson once, were there other occasions where you heard his voice?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, no, no.

MR. DARDEN: You never heard Mr. Simpson's voice prior to June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, never.

MR. DARDEN: But you watch a lot of television, don't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Some sports.

MR. DARDEN: You watch the news?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And have--and you have watched sports over the years; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: What are your favorite sports?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Soccer, what we call football in Europe.

MR. DARDEN: Anything else?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Ice hockey, basketball.

MR. DARDEN: American football?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Boring.

THE COURT: Wait until you see baseball.

MR. HEIDSTRA: You are right, Judge.

MR. DARDEN: Over the years have you watched Hertz commercials?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: Have you ever seen any infomercial on television?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not that I remember. I'm not interested in that.

MR. DARDEN: So your testimony then is that you have never heard the Defendant's voice prior to June 12th, 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never watch football.

MR. DARDEN: Have you ever heard the Defendant's voice on anything else?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Maybe--maybe I heard once. Maybe a Hertz commercial I might have heard one time or something.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Well, you do recall that those commercials involving the Defendant for Hertz used to run rather often, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: They were everywhere?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Two or three times. I don't remember.

MR. DARDEN: And the Defendant would talk in those commercials. Do you remember that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I remember.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you can recognize the Defendant's voice if you hear it, can't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I can recognize him probably. Yeah, probably.

MR. DARDEN: May I proceed, your Honor?

THE COURT: Proceed.

MR. DARDEN: You do recognize that you heard the second voice as the Defendant's voice, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: That second voice I heard in that alley?

MR. DARDEN: Yes, the voice of the older man?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: The very angry voice?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Could not recognize it. There was too much noise with the dogs. How can I recognize the voice? I don't know the man.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, didn't you tell Patricia Baret that the voice that you heard was the voice of the Defendant's?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never ever said that.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell Patricia Baret, "I know it was O.J. it had to be him"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, I never said that. Absurd, absurd.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell Miss Baret that exact same thing in July of 1994?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I said to her in July?

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never said that to her, never ever. To nobody I have said that.

MR. DARDEN: Yesterday when you were testifying you told us that you first heard the dog barking at about 10:30 or 10:35; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And after you said 10:30 or 10:35, Mr. Cochran asked you a series of--

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, object. That misstates the evidence.

MR. DARDEN: No, it doesn't.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: And after you first said 10:30 or 10:35, Mr. Cochran asked you a series of questions about what you heard at 10:35; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: What I heard, yes, exactly.

MR. DARDEN: So when you testified yesterday that you first heard the dog barking at 10:30 or 10:35, what you meant to convey to us was that you were given us an approximate time; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor. Misstates what he said yesterday.

THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer the question.

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, it was about that time, between 10:30 and 10:35.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You didn't know the exact time that you first heard the dog barking, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, not exactly on the minute, no.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't look at your watch when you first heard the dog barking?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: By the way, how many watches do you wear?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Just one. That is enough.

MR. DARDEN: And after you heard that dog barking--sometime around 10:30 or 10:35, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: --you already testified that you don't know whether the dog the been barking earlier. This is just the first time that you heard the dog barking?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: Correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes, yes.

MR. DARDEN: Then you backed up and you walked down the alleyway, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, right.

MR. DARDEN: Then you heard the two voices, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: When you heard these voices, you didn't hear three voices?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Two voices.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't hear the voices of three men?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not--I heard only two voices.

MR. DARDEN: Just two?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Two voices.

MR. DARDEN: And you continued to walk down the alleyway; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I stopped to listen to the voices for a minute.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, to go back to the time for a moment when you met me on May 29, 1995, that is memorial day, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: You told my investigators, Mr. Stevens and Mr. Thompson, that you heard the dog barking at 10:30; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: 10:35, 10:30, 10:35.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell them that you heard the dog barking at 10:30?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that.

MR. DARDEN: Do you recall telling them 10:30 and not qualifying that in any shape or form?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: About 10:30, 35. I might have said 10:30, but it was between 10:30 and 10:35.

MR. DARDEN: It could have been 10:25 or 10:30, couldn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no, never said that.

MR. DARDEN: You never said that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: 25, no.

MR. DARDEN: You never said 10:25?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: But you never checked your watch?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

MR. DARDEN: After you left the house, correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: You never checked your watch after you left the house, did you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: Now, the clock that you looked at, when you noted it was 10:15 before leaving the house, where is that clock located?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not the clock; my watch.

MR. DARDEN: Looked at your watch?

MR. HEIDSTRA: This watch.

MR. DARDEN: That is a nice watch. Can I just see it for a moment? That is a Puget quartz watch, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And when prior to June 12th, 1994, had you set the watch?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It is a battery. I never set it. It goes automatic.

MR. DARDEN: Never set the watch?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, never.

MR. DARDEN: What about daylight savings time, do you--when that occurs do you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, that might have happened, yeah, I change it.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So you do reset the watch sometime?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Well, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And that watch that you are wearing, that is not a digital watch, is it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: And that watch doesn't have the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 around the face of it, does it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: It has some thin lines?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, right, right.

MR. DARDEN: Right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: And so when you tell us that you heard the dog barking at 10:30, that is an approximation, isn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: 10:30, 10:35, around that time.

MR. DARDEN: Could it have been 10:29 or 10:34?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no. It could be just a little before maybe, yes, but I know my walk with the dogs.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Is that what you are basing this timing on, your walks with the dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Exactly. As a routine I do it for years and I know exactly the time.

MR. DARDEN: Doesn't it only take you ten minutes to walk to that alley with the dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: To where?

MR. DARDEN: Ten minutes? Doesn't it usually only take minutes to get to that alley when you walk your dogs?

MR. HEIDSTRA: With my old dog who has arthritis, how could I do that? It is impossible.

MR. DARDEN: You are walking around the block, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Around the block, yes.

MR. DARDEN: You are not walking to Santa Monica or someplace like that?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. The dog take me a long time. Your investigator--you saw my dog, didn't you?

MR. DARDEN: Let me ask you this, if I can: Since you work next door to the Defendant's home at Rockingham, you have driven to the Salingers, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Right next door to the Defendant's house, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: You can drive from your house to the Defendant's house in four minutes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not during the week.

MR. DARDEN: But how about on a Sunday night?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor. No showing--no foundation.

THE COURT: Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: Well, the traffic is fairly heavy during the week?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: But that night, that Sunday night, the traffic was very light, wasn't it?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And the night was very quiet?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: Not much traffic on the street at all, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, un-unh.

MR. DARDEN: And you saw no other cars other than that--well, you saw two cars and this white--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: --vehicle?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Would you agree that someone leaving that intersection at Dorothy and Bundy could drive to 360 Rockingham in four minutes or less?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor. Calls for speculation and foundation.

THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: If he is speeding, yes, maybe he could do that, yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And the white vehicle that you saw accelerated rapidly as it turned the corner; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, object to the form of that question. It misstates the testimony is.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. How would you describe the way the white vehicle took off when it made that right turn at Dorothy and Bundy?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It stopped quickly and then it accelerated quick into Bundy.

MR. DARDEN: Do you usually watch the same news station every night?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Mostly channel 7, I guess.

MR. DARDEN: And who was doing the news that night June 12th on channel 7?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't remember that. I don't remember by name the people.

MR. DARDEN: Is that the channel that you watched, that is, channel 7?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It could have been 7, yeah. It should have been 7.

MR. DARDEN: Is that the channel that you watched the night of June 12th?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I'm quite sure it was.

MR. DARDEN: Had you watched the basketball game earlier that day?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't remember--there was a basketball game? I don't remember that.

MR. DARDEN: You do like basketball, though?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I love it.

MR. DARDEN: You don't recall that the Houston Rockets were playing the championship series that day?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Don't recall. I like it, but I don't recall that at all. I must have watched it.

MR. DARDEN: And you told us that when you got home they were just announcing the news; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Correct.

MR. DARDEN: They were giving the teaser, sort of letting you know what was coming up on the news that night?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, right.

MR. DARDEN: Doesn't it sometimes occur, that is that teaser, doesn't it sometimes occur before eleven o'clock?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't think--no. They were just announcing the--they were--the eleven o'clock news.

MR. DARDEN: You just told us it was going to be coming up on the eleven o'clock news?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no.

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor. Argumentative.

THE COURT: Overruled. Actually, rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: I asked you a moment ago if they were giving the teaser sort of to let you know what was coming up on the news that night.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, it was not like that.

MR. DARDEN: And your response to that question was right, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Then I misunderstood you because it was starting. They announced the news. That is my testimony.

MR. DARDEN: So that the record is clear, didn't you just testify a moment ago that the--that you saw the teaser on TV when you came into the house?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: I misunderstood. The news was just starting. It was just starting. They announce the news. It was not that the news was coming. It was already there.

MR. DARDEN: And you don't know who the anchors were that night?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, I don't. I don't remember. I don't know the names.

MR. DARDEN: Now, at some point you realized that Nicole Brown had been killed, murdered over at the condo, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: Did you over there and watch and see what the police were doing over there?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I heard it in the morning when I was shaving myself, double murders on Bundy, and the helicopters were all over Brentwood.

MR. DARDEN: Did you see police cars when you went outside?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I heard only the helicopters as it was going on--was going on, and then I turned the TV on.

MR. DARDEN: And you knew that you had been over at Bundy at--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yes. When I turned the TV on and I saw the news and the gate, I was in shock. I said, "That's what happened last night."

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you realized then that you had heard someone yelling "Hey, hey, hey," and the very angry voice of an older black man?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.

MR. DARDEN: Well, you realized that you heard someone yelling "Hey, hey, hey," and a second voice, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And you realized then I take it that you heard these voices coming from 875 south Bundy, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: And you knew that you had heard this gate slam at 875 south Bundy, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: You knew Nicole Brown lived there, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I have seen her before there.

MR. DARDEN: You knew she was murdered, right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: You knew the police were investigating the murder?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right.

MR. DARDEN: I take it that you went over and you talked to the police?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I didn't talk to the police there, no.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't go over to the police officers and tell them what you heard?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't telephone the police station?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. Came to that Patty, that secretary.

MR. DARDEN: Patricia Baret?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Patricia, sorry.

MR. DARDEN: The first person you told anything about this was Patricia Baret?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Her boss, the doctor, and he give it to her--told her. Because she was a friend of Goldman she told me so she called the detectives up that she had somebody who knows who had information so they--

MR. DARDEN: Do you watch any news stations other than channel 7?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes. Sometimes other ones, too.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You watch channel 9?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Too much, no.

MR. DARDEN: 13, 11?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Mostly 2, 4 and 7 and CNN.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Is it possible that the station you watched that night, that Sunday night, was not channel 7?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, I'm quite sure it was 7.

MR. DARDEN: When you say you are quite sure, you are positive?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not positive, but it was very--quite sure that is always I watch it at night, 7.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Well, when you say that you are quite sure and not positive, does that mean then that you have some question in your own mind as to which station it was that you watched.

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, always it is channel 7 for me to watch it.

MR. DARDEN: Well, if you always watch channel 7 news--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Most of the time, yes.

MR. DARDEN: If you usually watch channel 7 news--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: --you must know who the anchors are on the weekend, right?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to that, argumentative.

THE COURT: We have asked the question already.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, you expected to be called by the Prosecution in this case, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I was--I thought so, maybe they would call me.

MR. DARDEN: When I say "Called"--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Subpoenaed.

MR. DARDEN: --you expected to be called to testify in this trial as a Prosecution witness; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: And when you realized that you were not going to be called to testify you were surprised; is that right?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, I was very surprised about it because they called me a crucial witness.

MR. DARDEN: Somebody called you a crucial witness?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: A critical witness?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Crucial witness.

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Bailey called you a critical witness, didn't he?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that at all.

MR. DARDEN: Pardon me?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't recall that.

MR. DARDEN: Well, don't you have in your possession a letter that Mr. Bailey gave you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, yeah, I got a letter.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. It is an eight-and-a-half-by-ten letter?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah, right, right. It is in a plastic--

MR. DARDEN: It is a letter from Mr. Bailey to you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah. It said, "Robert."

MR. DARDEN: Do you have that letter here with you today?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No.

MR. DARDEN: Did you have that letter laminated, Mr. Heidstra?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, they gave it to me like that.

MR. DARDEN: They gave you a laminated letter?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yeah.

MR. DARDEN: Do you know why?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No idea.

MR. DARDEN: In any event, you expected that you could make some money in this case, as a result of this case, if you were called to testify by the Prosecution; is that correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And in fact didn't you tell Mr. Field that someone in the D.A.'s office told you you could make money?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Nobody--D.A.? Nobody told me that.

MR. DARDEN: No one in the D.A.'s office ever told you you could make money if you testified in this case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No. I only talked to Mr. Payne and he never told me that.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell Mr. Field that someone in the D.A.'s office told you you can make money?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I never told Mr. Field that at all.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Isn't it true, Mr. Heidstra, that after you realized that you wouldn't be called by the Prosecution that you decided that you would do whatever you could to make sure you were called by the Defense in this case?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all. Not at all.

MR. DARDEN: Well, after I visited you on May 29th, 1995--

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: --you telephoned the Defense, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure, yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you told the Defense that I had been there?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Sure.

MR. DARDEN: And you told the Defense you didn't like me very much?

MR. HEIDSTRA: You were not very pleasant with me.

MR. DARDEN: Can I use that word, your Honor?

THE COURT: Not pleasant?

MS. CLARK: No, the word.

MR. DARDEN: The other word.

THE COURT: Yes, you may.

MR. DARDEN: You told the Defense that you weren't impressed with me?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not impressed. You were not very pleasant, very cool with me.

MR. DARDEN: You told the Defense that I was an asshole?

MR. COCHRAN: Just a moment. I misstate--counsel misstated. May I see counsel?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Counsel.

THE COURT: Hold on. Why don't you confer with Mr. Cochran for a moment.

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry. Mr. Cochran is correct. Thank you. I apologize.

MR. COCHRAN: Your witness.

MR. DARDEN: No, your witness.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Patricia Baret that you thought I was an asshole?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Never, never said that at all.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell Patricia Baret that you were going to come here and testify?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Do you want me to answer?

MR. DARDEN: As a witness subpoenaed by the Defense?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: And you were going to help the Defendant by your testimony?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Give my testimony. I didn't say how, but I said just give the truth what I know.

MR. DARDEN: You told Miss Baret that you expected the Defendant to show you his appreciation, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Not at all. I was on their side, so I guess maybe they appreciate that I was on their side.

MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry, could you repeat that answer?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I will believe that they appreciated that I was on their side, that I testified for them.

MR. DARDEN: Didn't you tell Miss Baret, that he, O.J. Simpson, was going to kiss you when he gets out of prison?

MR. HEIDSTRA: I don't know where she gets this from. This is absurd, absurd.

MR. DARDEN: You told Miss Baret that you are going to be his witness, the Defendant's witness, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, yeah. I was on the side--subpoenaed by the Defense.

MR. DARDEN: And you told Miss Baret that it is because of you that the Defendant is going to go free, didn't you?

MR. HEIDSTRA: How do I know that? How could I know that?

MR. DARDEN: And you told Miss Baret, "I'm going to make money when all of this is finished"?

MR. HEIDSTRA: It is a joke. He said maybe I make that money.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Mr. Heidstra, regardless of whether you heard the dog bark at 10:35, 10:30 or 10:40, there is still sufficient time for someone to drive from 875 Bundy--

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of this question. Object to the form of this question.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: If someone left 875 south Bundy at 10:35--

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of the question.

MR. DARDEN: --would they have enough time to drive to 360 north Rockingham and arrive by 10:52?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I object to the form of the question. Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: And no facts in evidence.

THE COURT: Overruled. He is familiar with the two locations.

MR. DARDEN: Yes?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Yes. You could do it, yes, sure.

MR. DARDEN: You could arrive there by 10:45, correct?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Right, yes.

MR. DARDEN: May I have one moment, your Honor? I'm almost done.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: Now, when you first came forward and spoke to the police, did you consider yourself then and at that time a Prosecution witness?

MR. HEIDSTRA: Oh, sure, sure.

MR. DARDEN: And after you realized that you weren't going to be testifying did you--did you give others more information? Did you give somebody else some more information?

MR. HEIDSTRA: No, no, no, unless--until the Defense