Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(Pages 35843 through 35847, volume 184A, transcribed and sealed under separate cover.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Back on the record in the Simpson matter. Mr. Simpson is again present before the Court with his counsel, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Cochran, Mr. Douglas, Mr. Bailey. The People are represented by Miss Clark and Mr. Darden. The jury is not present. Counsel, is there anything we need to take up before we invite the jurors to rejoin us?

MR. SHAPIRO: We are ready to call our first witness.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Clark, anything for the People?

MS. CLARK: No, your Honor, thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Deputy Magnera, let's have the jurors, please.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, who is the next witness?

MR. SHAPIRO: Mrs. Shirley Baker, your Honor. She is in Court and ready to testify.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

(Brief pause.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Let the record reflect we have now been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

THE COURT: And the Defense may call their next witness.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much and good morning, your Honor. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

MR. SHAPIRO: Our next witness is Mrs. Shirley Baker.

THE COURT: All right. Mrs. Baker.

Shirley Baker, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

MS. BAKER: I do.

THE CLERK: Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

MS. BAKER: My name is Mattie Shirley Simpson Baker. M-A-T-T-I-E S-H-I-R-L-E-Y S-I-M-P-S-O-N B-A-K-E-R.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

MR. SHAPIRO: Good morning, Mrs. Baker.

MS. BAKER: Good morning.

MR. SHAPIRO: How are you today?

MS. BAKER: Fine.

MR. SHAPIRO: You are a sister of Mr. O.J. Simpson?

MS. BAKER: Yes, I am his oldest and his big sister.

MR. SHAPIRO: You took care of him while he was growing up?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you--have you been coming to court on a regular basis since this trial began?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you employed also or were you?

MS. BAKER: I was until November of last year.

MR. SHAPIRO: And that was?

MS. BAKER: I'm on leave now.

MR. SHAPIRO: Because of your interest in coming here and supporting your brother?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you come to Los Angeles where do you stay?

MS. BAKER: We stay at O.J.'s house.

MR. SHAPIRO: And when you say "We," who stays there with you?

MS. BAKER: Well, my husband and myself, we are there, my sister Carmelita is there, Jason, Arnelle and Paula, when she is in town she is there. When my mother is here, she is there, and when my children come, we are all there.

MR. SHAPIRO: And are all those people there now?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: I want to direct your attention to the night of June the 13th. Did you get some very unfortunate news?

MS. BAKER: Yes, we did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And what was that news?

MS. BAKER: We found out that Nicole had been murdered.

MR. SHAPIRO: And as a result of that, did you come to Los Angeles?

MS. BAKER: Yes, we did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Who did you come with?

MS. BAKER: My mother and I, we came on the three o'clock flight from San Francisco.

MR. SHAPIRO: And at some time that early evening did you arrive at your brother's house on Rockingham?

MS. BAKER: Yes, we did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where was your brother when you arrived?

MS. BAKER: My brother--the first time we went there, we weren't able to get in, and when we went back we went into the house and my brother was sitting on the couch in the TV room.

MR. SHAPIRO: Why weren't you able to get in the first time?

MS. BAKER: The police would not allow us into the home.

MR. SHAPIRO: And what time was this?

MS. BAKER: 4:30, five o'clock.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where did you go?

MS. BAKER: We left there and we went to the police station to see if we could find out anything and then from there we left and we went to the Brentwood Lodge, which is up the street from O.J.'s house.

MR. SHAPIRO: And then you returned that evening?

MS. BAKER: Yes. We kept calling until we were able to get into the house.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you came into the house did you see your brother?

MS. BAKER: Yes. We walked in and went into the TV room and he was sitting there.

MR. SHAPIRO: And can you describe what his mood and demeanor was like when you first saw him?

MS. BAKER: He was devastated. He was crying, he was sad, he was in disbelief, he was in shock. It was--it was sad, it was just so sad.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you try to comfort him?

MS. BAKER: We tried to, but we were--we were all in shock. Umm, Nicole had been a part of our family for 17 years and we couldn't--we couldn't believe what was going on and we didn't know what was going on because we were only hearing bits and pieces from the newspaper and everything and the TV we had no idea what had happened and we were just all just devastated.

MR. SHAPIRO: Were there other family members there when you were there with your brother?

MS. BAKER: Yes, there were.

MR. SHAPIRO: What other family members were there?

MS. BAKER: My mother was there, Arnelle was there, Jason was there. There was a house full of people there. Some of my children were there, friends.

MR. SHAPIRO: Were there people that were coming and going?

MS. BAKER: Constantly.

MR. SHAPIRO: And they were paying their condolences?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: During this period of time when you were downstairs did you sit near your brother?

MS. BAKER: Yes. We sat on the couch in the TV room. There is a big couch there, and O.J. Was sitting there and my mother was sitting on one side of him and I was sitting on the other side of him and he was--as I say, he was devastated. He was exhausted because he had been on the plane the night before, he had gone to Chicago and then he had returned, and all of this was happening and he was just--it was sad. We were all very, very sad because we couldn't believe what had happened.

MR. SHAPIRO: While you were sitting on the couch did your brother ever leave your presence?

MS. BAKER: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: At some point in time did you and your brother leave the couch?

MS. BAKER: Yes. He was sitting on the couch and he was holding my mother's hand and sometimes he would lean on her shoulder and then sometimes he would lay his head back on the couch and close his eyes and we kept urging him to go upstairs and to try to lay down and to try to rest, because every time he would lean back and he would close his eyes for a minute or two, he would jerk or somebody would say something or he was trying to listen to everything, because there was a lot of commotion going on in there, and we were trying to get him to go upstairs. I asked Robert Kardashian if he would take O.J. Upstairs because we thought he needed to leave from downstairs.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did Mr. Kardashian take him upstairs?

MS. BAKER: Yes. They got up from the couch, they walked down the hallway. He stopped, he paused at the kitchen door, and he said something to someone in the kitchen, and then he and Robert walked up the stairs.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you go up the stairs shortly thereafter?

MS. BAKER: I walked up the stairs directly behind them.

MR. SHAPIRO: And when you got upstairs, was there anyone up there?

MS. BAKER: The only person that was upstairs at that time was my brother-in-law who was in the front bedroom and he was in the bed.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you got upstairs, where did your brother go?

MS. BAKER: My brother and Robert Kardashian walked into the room. I hesitated at Justin's room while they went into the room for O.J. To get into the bed. I stood in the doorway. He walked towards--in the room and I stood back. O.J. And Robert walked in. O.J. Took his pants off or Robert took his pants off, I didn't see who did it. O.J. Laid in the bed and then I walked into the room.

MR. SHAPIRO: During the time you were here watching the trial, did you see a man by the name of Ron Shipp testify?

MS. BAKER: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you hear his testimony?

MS. BAKER: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: During the time that you were with your brother sitting on the couch, did you ever see Ron Shipp talk privately to your brother?

MS. BAKER: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: During the time you went upstairs to the bedroom with your brother did you ever see Ron Shipp come up and talk privately to your brother?

MS. BAKER: Ron Shipp did come up to the bedroom. I was in the bedroom. I was sitting on the couch. The telephone was ringing and O.J. Had just closed his eyes for a moment, and when the telephone rung O.J. Started to shake. And I asked Ron, I said, "Ron, is there any way that you can turn that phone off or unplug the phone?" He walked around the side of the bed and he unplugged the phone. And it seemed to me like I could still hear the phone ringing, so he took the phone and I think he put it in the night stand. He said a few words to me and then he left the room and he never returned to that room again.

MR. SHAPIRO: So you are absolutely certain at no time did your brother speak privately to Ron Shipp in the bedroom that night?

MS. BAKER: I'm absolutely certain, yes.

MS. CLARK: Objection, that is speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where did you spend the night?

MS. BAKER: I spent the night on the couch and laying on the bed in O.J.'s room. My husband and my other children came at about ten o'clock and from my--my husband came upstairs and the two of us stayed in O.J.'s room until the next morning until Robert Kardashian and Howard Weitzman came to the house.

MR. SHAPIRO: So with the exception of the time that your brother went in to get in bed, with Robert Kardashian, you were with your brother the entire time he was in the bedroom?

MS. BAKER: Every moment until that morning.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much.

MS. BAKER: Thank you.

THE COURT: People.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: Good morning, Miss Baker.

MS. BAKER: Good morning.

MS. CLARK: Can you tell was time it was when you went up to the bedroom?

MS. BAKER: It was a little after 9:00.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And then after--at that point, when you went up to the bedroom, when did you leave?

MS. BAKER: Say that again.

MS. CLARK: I'm sorry. How long did you stay in the bedroom?

MS. BAKER: I stayed in the--I was in the bedroom the entire time. A little after 10:00 my husband and my daughter, two of my daughters arrived, and my husband came upstairs. We met on the stairway. I told him that we were sleeping in O.J.'s room that night and he said, "Where are we sleeping?" And I said, "Well, we will sleep on the couch and one of us will sleep on the bed. I want to be close to him, I want to be near him." And he said, "Okay." And that is what we did all night.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

MS. BAKER: And the next morning.

MS. CLARK: Now, when you met him on the stairs, did you take him downstairs, get him something to drink or eat?

MS. BAKER: No. My nieces were there, my sisters were there. I had three daughters that was there. There was a house full of people.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So did you not give your husband anything to eat or drink? I'm talking about regular beverages. I'm not talking about drink drink. I'm talking about something to sustain him, some liquid, some food, anything?

MS. BAKER: We didn't think about eating. Our concern was we wanted to be--we were a family and Nicole had been killed and we wanted to be with O.J., we wanted to be with the children, we wanted to be together. I didn't even think about food.

MS. CLARK: Food was brought in, though, wasn't it?

MS. BAKER: The next day, yes.

MS. CLARK: So you went up to the bedroom at about nine o'clock and at about ten o'clock you met your husband on the stairway; is that right?

MS. BAKER: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: And you spoke to him there?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And then after you spoke to him on the stairway did you go downstairs with him at any point?

MS. BAKER: No, not that night.

MS. CLARK: You stayed with him on the stairway there?

MS. BAKER: I met him on the stairway, we spoke, we embraced. I think he kissed me on the cheek. We turned around, walked back up the stairway and went into O.J.'s room.

MS. CLARK: You heard Ron Shipp testify to the conversation he had with Mr. Simpson about having a dream about killing Nicole. Do you recall that testimony?

MS. BAKER: I heard it on the TV I wasn't in the courtroom. I got sent out of the courtroom when he was testifying.

MS. CLARK: Okay. You watched that testimony on TV, didn't you?

MS. BAKER: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Now, when you spent the--when you got up the next morning on the 14th did you see Mr. Simpson?

MS. BAKER: I saw him--he was in the bed. He never left the bed.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

MS. BAKER: Except to go into his bathroom.

MS. CLARK: Okay. On the day of the 14th did he leave the house at some point?

MS. BAKER: At some point, yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And were you staying at the house?

MS. BAKER: I live at the house.

MS. CLARK: Okay. I'm talking about in that week. I know that is true now. Did you stay there the whole week?

MS. BAKER: I lived there then.

MS. CLARK: All right. Did he come back on the 14th?

MS. BAKER: We were in and out of the house. I don't know the comings and goings. Once Robert Kardashian and Howard Weitzman came, they were dealing with O.J. And at that point I was dealing with my niece and nephew and we were coming and going. I was leaving the house, I was there some time, I wasn't there. I was taking care of my mother and my children.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

MS. BAKER: So at that time I don't know about O.J.'s coming and going on that particular day.

MS. CLARK: All right. And when you say your niece and nephew, you mean Arnelle and Jason, correct?

MS. BAKER: Arnelle and Jason.

MS. CLARK: Did you not see Sydney and Justin there, did you?

MS. BAKER: Sydney and Justin had already left when we got there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. During the time that you were staying there, which was that whole week, you did not see Sydney and Justin at Rockingham; is that correct?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. It is beyond the scope.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BAKER: No.

MS. CLARK: Now, when Mr. Simpson left on the 14th, do you know where he went?

MS. BAKER: I don't even know if he left on the 14th. The days after the initial day everything started running back and forth together.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh.

MS. BAKER: So if he left, no, I wouldn't know where he left because I didn't go with him.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Do you recall--

MS. CLARK: Excuse me a minute.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: Did you see Robert Kardashian at the house, Miss Baker?

MS. BAKER: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Did you see when he--what time was it when you got there on the 13th?

MS. BAKER: It was the second time?

MS. CLARK: No, no. Oh, yeah, that's right, I'm sorry.

MS. BAKER: It was after seven o'clock.

MS. CLARK: First time what time was it when you got there?

MS. BAKER: We caught the three o'clock flight from San Francisco and my daughter picked us up from the airport. It was about 4:30, five o'clock.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Did you see Mr. Kardashian carry away the Louie Vitton garment bag that Mr. Simpson had brought back with him from Chicago?

MS. BAKER: No.

MS. CLARK: You never saw that bag?

MS. BAKER: No.

MS. CLARK: During the evening that you spent in Mr. Simpson's bedroom, did you ever leave the room to change clothes or go to the bathroom or anything?

MS. BAKER: I went to the bath--the front bathroom, Nicole's bathroom.

MS. CLARK: Nicole's? And what about your husband?

MS. BAKER: My husband was on the couch.

MS. CLARK: Did he ever leave the room?

MS. BAKER: When he went to the bathroom he either went to Nicole's bathroom or to O.J.'s bathroom.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And your children were staying downstairs; is that right?

MS. BAKER: Two of them stayed out in one of the guest houses, yes.

MS. CLARK: Do you know which guest house they stayed in?

MS. BAKER: Whichever one was vacant at that time.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Arnelle was--was there, correct?

MS. BAKER: Correct.

MS. CLARK: On the evening of the 13th do you recall where she was at about eight o'clock in the early evening hours?

MS. BAKER: We were all downstairs. Umm--

MS. CLARK: Do you recall--let me ask it this way. I will make it more specific.

MS. BAKER: Okay.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall at some point that she went to her room?

MS. BAKER: No, I don't.

MS. CLARK: Okay. You weren't focusing on her?

MS. BAKER: No, because at that time when we originally got there, when my mother and I got there, we went to the TV room and we were sitting on the couch with O.J.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh.

MS. BAKER: There were a lot of people coming and going. The telephone was ringing and we were sitting there with O.J.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So you were focused there, correct, and you weren't particularly paying attention to the people that were coming and going?

MS. BAKER: No, not really.

MS. CLARK: All right. So if I asked you who was there and who was not there, you are not going to be able to tell me; is that right?

MS. BAKER: Outside of my family--

MS. CLARK: All right.

MS. BAKER: --Robert Kardashian and a few people that I know.

MS. CLARK: How about Mr. Simpson's lawyer, Skip Taft, do you remember him being?

MS. BAKER: I don't remember seeing Skip that night, no.

MS. CLARK: How about Kato Kaelin, do you remember seeing him there?

MS. BAKER: Oh, yes, he was there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And what about Howard Weitzman, do you know if he was there?

MS. BAKER: I saw him the next morning.

MS. CLARK: Okay. You didn't see him there that day?

MS. BAKER: I didn't see him--

MS. CLARK: Or you don't recall?

MS. BAKER: No.

MS. CLARK: He could have been there, but you don't remember? Is that--

MS. BAKER: I didn't see him.

MS. CLARK: All right. May I have a moment?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: Since November have you been staying at Rockingham?

MS. BAKER: Yes. I stayed there all the time. Actually Rockingham is now my home.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And does--does your sister Carmelita Durio stay there also?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And she has been for sometime as well?

MS. BAKER: Yes, she has.

MS. CLARK: Does Arnelle visit there frequently or does she stay there?

MS. BAKER: Arnelle lives there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So the three of you are all living there together at this point?

MS. BAKER: Well, there is more than three of us. There is Arnelle, there is Jason, there is my husband and myself, my sister Carmelita, my mother when she comes down here, and my children when they are in town.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

MS. BAKER: And Paula when she is in town.

MS. CLARK: All right.

MS. BAKER: So every room is--it is full now.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So the whole family. And since this--since the beginning of this trial at least, or since November, since November, you and your sister Carmelita and Arnelle and Jason have been full-time residents there?

MS. BAKER: Mr. Baker, my husband Ben.

MS. CLARK: Yes.

MS. BAKER: Yes, we have.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, ma'am.

THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, your Honor. Just very briefly, please.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you still on occasion return to your home in San Francisco?

MS. BAKER: We come down on Monday and we go back on Friday or Saturday morning and return the next week.

MR. SHAPIRO: Mrs. Baker, on the 14th could you describe to the jury what the atmosphere was like around the house on Rockingham, on Ashford out in front?

MS. CLARK: Objection, beyond the scope.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BAKER: It is something that you would not believe. I will never take my grandchildren to the zoo again because that is exactly how we felt. It was unbelievable. At nighttime it was lit up like we were in Disneyland. It was unbelievable.

MR. SHAPIRO: And was there some concern, especially for the young children, Sydney and Justin, of coming into that atmosphere?

MS. CLARK: Objection, speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BAKER: Definitely so. We did not want them there in that situation, no. They would have been too traumatized for it.

MR. SHAPIRO: Now, you mentioned that very briefly you went to the bathroom when you were upstairs and you went to what was then Nicole's bathroom?

MS. BAKER: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: That is right at the entrance coming into the bedroom?

MS. BAKER: That's right.

MR. SHAPIRO: Was--how long were you gone during that break?

MS. BAKER: How long was I gone?

MR. SHAPIRO: Approximately?

MS. BAKER: Maybe a minute.

MR. SHAPIRO: And during that period of time when you left was Mr. Shipp there?

MS. BAKER: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you returned was he there?

MS. BAKER: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: When your husband came up and you were with your husband, was Mr. Shipp there?

MS. BAKER: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you absolutely certain that you can tell this jury that at no time, other than regarding unplugging the telephone, was there any private conversation between Mr. Shipp and your brother?

MS. BAKER: I'm absolutely sure.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you.

MS. BAKER: Yes, I am.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you. Nothing further and thank you so much for coming today.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor. Nothing further. Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Baker, thank you very much.

MS. BAKER: Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Next Defense witness. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Yes. Thank you very kindly, your Honor. We next call Mr. Jack McKay who is present in the courtroom, please. Mr. McKay, sir.

THE COURT: Good morning, sir. Would you face the court reporter. I'm sorry, the clerk.

Jack McKay, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

MR. MCKAY: I do.

THE CLERK: Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

MR. MCKAY: Jack McKay, J-A-C-K M-C K-A-Y.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

THE COURT: Look, Mr. McKay, would you just set that cup off to the side there, please. Thank you. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: Good morning, Mr. McKay.

MR. MCKAY: Good morning.

MR. COCHRAN: Mr. McKay, how are you employed sir?

MR. MCKAY: I'm the Chief Financial Officer for the American Psychological Association.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you occupation that position back in the month of June of 1994?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And on that date did you have occasion to see Mr. O.J. Simpson?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, sir, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: That is Mr. Simpson seated to my left here, to my far left?

MR. MCKAY: It is.

MR. COCHRAN: And where did you have occasion to see Mr. Simpson on June 8th, 1994?

MR. MCKAY: We were participating in a corporate golf tournament in Sterling, Virginia.

MR. COCHRAN: Back in Virginia?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you remember the name of the course?

MR. MCKAY: It was Landsdown Conference Center.

MR. COCHRAN: And when you say "We were participating," was the organization of which you are the chief financial officer a participant in this particular tournament?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you were playing there that day?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, I was.

MR. COCHRAN: That was a Wednesday, was it not?

MR. MCKAY: I believe so.

MR. COCHRAN: Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what time on that date, June 8th, did you see Mr. Simpson?

MR. MCKAY: One of my calling cards is being late, so I was naturally late for this golf tournament. Umm, I got there a little before 12:15, I believe, for a 12:30 starting time, and got up to the first tee and Mr. Simpson and two other players were there and we had a picture taking exercise and then we went off at 12:30.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you had what--they had a 12:30 tee time?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And had you ever played golf before with Mr. Simpson?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MR. COCHRAN: And you had occasion then to tee off with him at or about 12:30. And for how long after that did you play golf with Mr. Simpson?

MR. MCKAY: Because we were the last foursome that went off, Mr. Simpson played, I believe, four or five holes with us, in our foursome. Then he left in his own cart and played a hole or two with other foursomes and then came back and played a few more holes with us on the back nine. So I guess collectively I was with him maybe an hour and a half, an hour and 45 minutes.

MR. COCHRAN: And during the course of this tournament, who was one of the sponsors of this tournament, if you know, that provided Mr. Simpson?

MR. MCKAY: You mean the corporation that sponsored the tournament?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes, the corporation?

MR. MCKAY: It was Hertz Rent-a-Car.

MR. COCHRAN: So you mentioned that Mr. Simpson went off in his own cart. Did he have some kind of a golf cart he was using that day?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, he did.

MR. COCHRAN: During the time that you played with Mr. Simpson did you have occasion to have a conversation with him at all?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Answer that yes or no. At any time during the conversation did you ever have occasion to discuss with him the physical condition of his knees?

MR. MCKAY: On one occasion he had a slight limp and I just--

MS. CLARK: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled. He can testify to his observations.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: You saw Mr. Simpson have a limp, did you not?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, when we walked toward the ball.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And when you saw this, did you have an occasion to discuss with him the condition of his knees? You can answer that yes or no.

MR. MCKAY: Yes, briefly.

MR. COCHRAN: And did the two of you then discuss the subject matter of Mr. Simpson's knees and any problems he might be having with those knees?

MS. CLARK: Objection, this is hearsay.

MR. COCHRAN: The subject matter.

THE COURT: Did you discuss that?

MR. COCHRAN: Did you discuss that?

MR. MCKAY: Very briefly.

THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: And how would you characterize Mr. Simpson's demeanor during the time that you had occasion to play golf with him these four or five holes at first and then the time afterwards?

MR. MCKAY: He was very cordial, friendly, very willing to shake hands, sign autographs, have pictures taken. Very much different, I would say, than other celebrities that I have had an occasion to play golf with. He was a regular person that I was very comfortable with and everybody else was.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, you have obviously had occasion to play golf with other so-called celebrities; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, I have.

MR. COCHRAN: Without mentioning any of their names, you found the demeanor and comportment--

MS. CLARK: Objection. This is leading.

MR. COCHRAN: Not leading. I'm going to ask question.

THE COURT: Sounds leading.

MR. COCHRAN: I didn't finish. Let me see if I can change it around so it won't be leading. All right.

MR. COCHRAN: You've played with other celebrities, have you not?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And how did Mr. Simpson's demeanor differ from those other celebrities you played with?

MS. CLARK: Objection, irrelevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: You may answer.

THE COURT: You may answer the question.

MR. MCKAY: I would say that he appeared to be much more friendly than any that I have ever played with before. He was very willing to talk to you about anything. He did not put on any airs. He was just a very friendly person to be around.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You enjoyed your time; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And you mentioned the fact that you had a photograph taken with Mr. Simpson, and was there a foursome, including Simpson, when you all played?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, there was.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you provide me with a photograph that was taken on that date of June 8th, 1994, that includes the participants in your particular foursome?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: Is the photograph a fair and accurate portrayal--

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: Is that a fair and accurate portrayal of the way the four of you appeared on that date, June 8th, 1994?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, it was.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. COCHRAN: May I approach, your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

MR. COCHRAN: I will mark this, your Honor, as Defendant's next exhibit.

THE COURT: 1229.

(Deft's 1229 for id = photograph)

MR. COCHRAN: 1229, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: I will place the "1229" on the upper right rear.

MR. COCHRAN: And I will place this photograph before Mr. McKay and ask Mr. McKay, is that a photograph that you brought to California and provided me with?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, it is.

MR. COCHRAN: And is that photograph a fair and accurate portrayal of the way the four of you looked back on June 8th, 1994?

MR. MCKAY: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: And where was that photograph taken?

MR. MCKAY: It was taken on the no. 1 tee at Landsdown Conference Center in Virginia.

MR. COCHRAN: The no. 1 tee is before you teed off to start playing golf; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: That's right.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Let's see who is depicted--perhaps everybody can see it if I put it on the elmo, your Honor.

THE COURT: You may.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: There is a monitor right before you, sir, and I think you will be able to look at the monitor and the jury will be able to see it also in referring to it.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: Now, in looking at this photograph, you have told us this is a fair and accurate portrayal of the foursome just prior to the first tee. The gentleman on the left of the photograph that is you, is it not?

MR. MCKAY: I think so.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. We do recognize Mr. Simpson next to you and then who is the man to Mr. Simpson's left?

MR. MCKAY: He is a director of some kind from the AARP organization, American Association of Retired People.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. He was playing in this particular foursome?

MR. MCKAY: He was one of the other organizations that was invited.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And the man to the representative of AARP's left?

MR. MCKAY: He is a regional vice-president of Hertz, as far as I was told. I don't know the man, but that is how he was introduced.

MR. COCHRAN: That is the first time you had ever played with him also; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So now altogether you spent about how much time with Mr. Simpson some that date, that June 8th date?

MR. MCKAY: I would say an hour and a half to hour and 45 minutes, something like that.

MR. COCHRAN: And during that period of time the demeanor that you have described for us, did it ever change at any time?

MR. MCKAY: Not at all.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did he sign some autographs for you also?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, he did.

MR. COCHRAN: And family members?

MR. MCKAY: He signed an autograph for my daughter, a visor.

MR. COCHRAN: I have nothing further for Mr. McKay at this point, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: All right. You are aware, sir, that the Defendant is a spokesperson for Hertz corporation, correct?

MR. MCKAY: I assume he is. He was there for that purpose.

MS. CLARK: All right. And that he gets paid to enhance the company image, correct?

MR. MCKAY: I don't know that.

MS. CLARK: What would you think a spokesperson would do, sir?

MR. COCHRAN: I will object, your Honor. That is argumentative, the form of the question.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question, please.

MS. CLARK: Do you expect a spokesperson for a company to try and portray a good image on behalf of that company?

MR. MCKAY: If they expect to keep the job I would think they would.

MS. CLARK: Certainly. And Mr. Simpson is a spokesperson for Hertz, correct?

MR. MCKAY: I believe so.

MS. CLARK: You have met other celebrities; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: That's right.

MS. CLARK: And on the occasions that you have met other celebrities have they been spokespeople as well for other corporations?

MR. MCKAY: Most of the time they were.

MS. CLARK: On the occasion that you were with Mr. Simpson on June the 8th, was there press there?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: Were there photographers there?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: There were media people there?

MR. MCKAY: Not to my knowledge there weren't.

MS. CLARK: There were publicity agents there for Hertz?

MR. MCKAY: I don't--I don't know.

MS. CLARK: Who were the photographers there, Mr. McKay?

MR. MCKAY: As far as I know the photographer was hired by Hertz to take pictures to give to the participants as souvenirs from the occasion.

MS. CLARK: And the photographer followed everyone around, did they?

MR. MCKAY: They were on the course at different times.

MS. CLARK: And what does your company have to do with the Hertz corporation?

MR. MCKAY: Our company is one of the companies that provides benefits to our members, special discounts through various car rental companies, hotels and whatnot, so we just sponsor that event through our membership and get special discounts from Hertz, Avis and other companies.

MS. CLARK: And you patronize Hertz, correct?

MR. MCKAY: Do I?

MS. CLARK: Not you personally; your company?

MR. MCKAY: It is a benefit of membership.

MS. CLARK: Right. That means that you use the services of Hertz corporation; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: Our members are supposed to. They have the opportunity to.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And as a customer of Hertz, Hertz corporation naturally would want to be in your good favor, correct?

MR. MCKAY: I would think they wouldn't want to lose the account.

MS. CLARK: And Mr. Simpson is a spokesperson for Hertz; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: He is--was.

MS. CLARK: Now, you spoke to the Defense on June the 14th of 1995; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: (No audible response.)

MS. CLARK: You spoke to a Defense investigator on June 14th, 1995?

MR. MCKAY: I believe that is the right date.

MS. CLARK: Is that the only time you ever spoke to a Defense investigator?

MR. MCKAY: Until I came out here. I believe that was the only time.

MS. CLARK: Prior to that time did you speak to any of the lawyers for Mr. Simpson?

MR. MCKAY: Umm, I don't think so. I think I was called sometime ago by an investigator and then I spoke to Mr. Bailey briefly.

MS. CLARK: And when was that that you spoke to Mr. Bailey?

MR. MCKAY: Umm, I really--I really don't know. Maybe a month or two ago, just seeing if I would testify if asked.

MS. CLARK: Okay. That was before June the 14th, correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Did Mr. Bailey take any notes or tape your statement at the time he spoke to you?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: And after you spoke to Mr. Bailey, who else did you talk to?

MR. MCKAY: An attorney from Mr. Cochran's organization. I think--I can't remember his name.

MS. CLARK: Mr. Douglas?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: Someone else?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And did you speak to him on the phone or in person?

MR. MCKAY: On the phone.

MS. CLARK: How long did you speak to him for?

MR. MCKAY: Probably thirty minutes, I suppose.

MS. CLARK: And did you discuss with him the subject matter of your testimony here in court?

MR. MCKAY: I answered questions.

MS. CLARK: And after that point who else did you talk to?

MR. MCKAY: No one until I got out here.

MS. CLARK: At what point then--you spoke to Mr. Bailey, you spoke to a lawyer from Mr. Cochran's office, and was it after that that you spoke to a Defense investigator on June the 14th?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, assumes a fact not in evidence. If I can talk to counsel, I think she is confused.

THE COURT: Sure. Why don't you confer with Mr. Cochran for a moment.

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: May I have a moment, your Honor?

THE COURT: Certainly.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: You indicated your contact with Mr. Bailey was back about a month or so ago; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: That is the best of my recollection. I have lost track of time. It has been a while, but--

MS. CLARK: Was that the first contact you had with any member of the Defense team in this case?

MR. MCKAY: Let me try to give you the scenario here.

MS. CLARK: Could you answer my question? Was that the first contact you had with any member of the Defense team in this case?

MR. COCHRAN: She cut the witness off.

THE COURT: The answer was nonresponsive.

MS. CLARK: Nonresponsive.

MR. MCKAY: Would you ask the question again.

MS. CLARK: Was that the first contact you had with any member of the Defense team in this case?

MR. MCKAY: Umm, I don't know whether someone is a member of the Defense team.

MS. CLARK: Any witness or lawyer for the Defense in this case, was that your first contact, Mr. Bailey, about a month ago, or was there an earlier contact by someone else who is involved with the Defense case?

MR. MCKAY: I have spoken to someone else other than on this Defense team about this case.

MS. CLARK: Isn't it true that you spoke to a psychologist by the name of Lenore Walker in February of this year?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: A witness scheduled to testify in this case?

MR. MCKAY: I don't know whether she is scheduled to testify, but I talked with her.

MS. CLARK: And you are CFO. What is CFO?

MR. MCKAY: Chief financial officer.

MS. CLARK: That is not a doctor, is it?

MR. MCKAY: No, it is not.

MS. CLARK: It is not a psychiatrist, is it?

MR. MCKAY: No, it is not.

MS. CLARK: As chief financial officer you have to deal with the finances of the company, correct?

MR. MCKAY: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Now, on the occasion of June the 8th, 1994, you shook hands with the Defendant; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: That's right.

MS. CLARK: You got his autograph; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Right.

MS. CLARK: Did you see any cut on his left finger?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: Did you see any cuts on his hands at all?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: You spoke to a lawyer on June the 14th of 1995 at some length; is that correct?

THE COURT: I think the testimony was an investigator.

MS. CLARK: Let me ask you that. Did you speak to somebody on June the 14th, 1995, for about half an hour to an hour?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Do you know if that was a lawyer or an investigator?

MR. COCHRAN: Misstates, your Honor. He said a half hour.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. MCKAY: I believe he was a lawyer.

MS. CLARK: Have you had occasion to review that statement since you have been out here?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: I want to you ask you right now to look at that statement, sir, and tell me where in that statement you indicate that you saw Mr. Simpson walk with a limp on June the 8th, 1994?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form. He didn't say in the statement he did. He said it was a conversation.

THE COURT: Sustained. That is a speaking objection, Mr. Cochran. Be seated. Answer the question.

MR. MCKAY: That is not in the statement.

MS. CLARK: Nowhere in the statement, is it?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: June the 8th is the only time that you ever had any contact with Mr. Simpson; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: That's right.

MS. CLARK: And you indicate in this statement that based on that one contact for that one day in your life that you found him to be absolutely loose, friendly, down-to-earth, affable, correct?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: And how many hours of that day did you spent with him on June the 8th, 1994?

MR. MCKAY: About a hour and a half to an hour and 45 minutes would be my estimate.

MS. CLARK: And before that hour and a half to two hours that you saw him you don't know what he was looking like or how he acted, correct?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: And after the two hours you spent with him you don't know what he looked like, do you?

THE COURT: Kind of a vague question.

MS. CLARK: I'm sorry.

MS. CLARK: You don't know what his mood was, do you?

MR. MCKAY: I know what his mood was until he left at six o'clock to catch a plane.

MS. CLARK: After that point you do not know, do you?

MR. MCKAY: Not after that point, no.

MS. CLARK: You did not see him on June the 9th, 1994, correct?

MR. MCKAY: Correct.

MS. CLARK: The 10th?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: The 11th?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: The 12th?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: He did not discuss his relationship with any of the women in his life with you on June the 8th, 1994, did he?

MR. COCHRAN: Objection, beyond the scope.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: Well, let me ask you this, sir: Do you--you did not see his left hand on June the 12th, did you?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I object to the form of that question. Argumentative.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE COURT: You can answer the question.

MR. MCKAY: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: On June the 12th?

MR. MCKAY: Oh, pardon me. I only saw him on June the 8th.

MS. CLARK: If someone was planning to commit murder, sir, would you expect him to come to you if he wanted to get away with it and grumble about the person he wanted to kill?

MR. COCHRAN: Object, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained, sustained, sustained, sustained.

MS. CLARK: Do you know how someone would act?

THE COURT: Excuse me. Hold on. The jury is to disregard the implication of that question.

MS. CLARK: Do you know how someone--do you think you know how someone is going to act before they commit a crime?

MR. COCHRAN: I object. May we approach the bench?

THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. Move on, counsel.

MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: Mr. McKay, sir, you have flown out here to testify today for this jury; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Where do you live, sir?

MS. CLARK: Objection, irrelevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: Where do you live, sir?

MR. MCKAY: Alexandria, Virginia.

MR. COCHRAN: You flew out pursuant to subpoena to testify; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you spoke briefly with Mr. Bailey sometime about a month ago; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Very briefly.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Was that a phone conversation?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, it was.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And then thereafter you spoke to a lawyer from my office in Washington D.C., did you not?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you remember the name my partner, Ralph Lotkin?

MR. MCKAY: Lotkin, that is the one.

MR. COCHRAN: You talked to him for about thirty minutes on the phone; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: You responded to his questions?

MS. CLARK: All leading.

MR. COCHRAN: Restate it.

MR. COCHRAN: How did the conversation go with Mr. Lotkin? Did you tell him stuff or did he ask you questions or what?

MR. MCKAY: He simply asked questions and I answered the questions that he asked.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And that was all that happened; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: That was all.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, with regard to Dr. Lenore Walker, was she in your office sometime during the early part of 1995?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you know what month that was?

MR. MCKAY: I believe it was February.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. February of `95. And is she a member of the organization of which you are the chief financial officer?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, she is.

MR. COCHRAN: And at that time when she was in your office did she have occasion to see one of these pictures that we have here, the pictures of Mr. Simpson and your golfing group?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, she did.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you have a brief conversation at that point?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, with regard to the dates involved, you saw Mr. Simpson only on June 8th; isn't that correct?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

MR. COCHRAN: You didn't see Mr. Simpson on the 9th or the 10th or the 11th, did you?

MR. MCKAY: No, sir.

MR. COCHRAN: Neither did you see him on the 5th, 6th or 7th, did you?

MR. MCKAY: No, sir.

MR. COCHRAN: You came and you told us about the date you saw him on June 8th; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: Objection, leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: And when Mr. Simpson left you on June 8th to go to Dulles airport, how was his mood at that time?

MR. MCKAY: It was the same that it had been the entire day.

MR. COCHRAN: And what was that mood?

MR. MCKAY: It was a very friendly cordial, handshaking, telling jokes, kind of behavior.

MR. COCHRAN: And with regard to other celebrities, you were asked a question about celebrities always trying to be nice. Have you played with celebrities who weren't nice?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you didn't enjoy their presence?

MR. MCKAY: Not particularly.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly. Thank you very much for coming today, too.

MR. MCKAY: Thank you.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: Yes. Can I see the photograph, please?

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: Can you see the Defendant's left hand in this photograph, sir? I'm referring to Defense number--

THE COURT: 1229.

MS. CLARK: Thank you.

MR. MCKAY: A portion of it, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: May we see it up close.

MS. CLARK: Why don't we zoom in.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: Maybe we should take the photograph to him, your Honor. I can see it.

MS. CLARK: There we go.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: Thank you.

MS. CLARK: Do you see the Defendant's left hand?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Do you see any cuts on it?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: You all posed together for that photograph, did you not?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And that was a Hertz photographer that took the picture; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Someone hired by Hertz, I believe.

MS. CLARK: And with respect to the statement that you gave to the attorney, I'm going to direct your attention to page 2 and point out the second paragraph that consists of one line. In that photograph did you indicate, sir, that the Defendant did not complain of any physical limitations on June the 8th, 1994?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.

MR. COCHRAN: Just two other questions.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: First of all, with regard to this picture, do you see how swollen Mr. Simpson's middle finger looks? Do you see his knuckle out there?

MS. CLARK: Objection, leading.

THE COURT: Sustained. Leading.

MR. COCHRAN: Let me point it out.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you notice anything unusual about that middle finger of Mr. Simpson's there? Can you see that?

MR. MCKAY: I can't--I wouldn't have seen it before so I wouldn't know whether it is normal or not. I mean, that is the first time I had seen that.

MR. COCHRAN: This picture was the way, however--the way it looked back on June 8th?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. With regard to Mr. Simpson complaining, as I understood your testimony, you noticed Mr. Simpson limping and you asked him a question about that limping; isn't that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Not in this is there testimony. That question was never asked. You asked me that question here today.

MR. COCHRAN: Sure. But on that particular date, on June 8th, you noticed him limping as he was walking toward his ball, right?

MR. MCKAY: Right.

MS. CLARK: Objection, leading.

MR. COCHRAN: That is something you saw with your own eyes; isn't that right?

MS. CLARK: Objection, leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: You then commented or talked to Mr. Simpson about why he was limping?

MS. CLARK: Objection, leading.

THE COURT: This is leading.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. After you saw Mr. Simpson limping toward his ball, what did you do at that point? Did you ask him a question?

MR. MCKAY: We just said--we joked about old football injuries, just that is old football injuries, knee injuries. It was very, very brief, like in a joking way. We really didn't discuss it at all.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Thank you very kindly, sir.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: But in your statement, sir, you explicitly said: "Mr. Simpson did not complain of any physical limitations and did not indicate whether he was taking any medication did not do so in Mr. McKay's presence," correct?

MR. MCKAY: He did not complain.

MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.

MR. COCHRAN: May Mr. McKay be excused, your Honor?

THE COURT: Has the Metro made it down to Alexandria yet?

MR. MCKAY: I hope so.

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. McKay.

MR. MCKAY: Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

THE COURT: All right. Next witness.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much, your Honor. If the Court pleases, we call Mr. Dan Mandel.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Mandel, would you come forward, please.

MR. COCHRAN: No, wrong person.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: No, your Honor. We have lots of witnesses all ready.

THE COURT: I might have to give you an extended lunch hour to recoup from all this.

MR. COCHRAN: I appreciate that, your Honor. I promise to make it up in the afternoon.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Are you Mr. Mandel?

MR. MANDEL: Good morning.

THE COURT: Good morning, sir. Would you stand over here by the podium and face the clerk, please.

Danny Mandel, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

MR. MANDEL: I do.

THE CLERK: Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

MR. MANDEL: Danny Mandel, D-A-N-N-Y M-A-N-D-E-L.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

MR. SHAPIRO: Good morning, Mr. Mandel, and thank you for coming.

MR. MANDEL: Good morning.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you a little nervous?

MR. MANDEL: Definitely.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you ever had the occasion to testify before?

MR. MANDEL: No, I have not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Would you briefly tell the jury what your education and background consists of.

MR. MANDEL: I have a BA from UCLA, I graduated in 1990, and currently I work at Sony Pictures in television finance.

MR. SHAPIRO: And your BA is in what?

THE COURT: Excuse me, counsel. Mr. Mandel, would you just pull the microphone closer to you, please.

MR. MANDEL: (Witness complies.)

THE COURT: All right.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your bachelor of arts degree is in what field?

MR. MANDEL: It is in sociology.

MR. SHAPIRO: And you work at Sony pictures in what capacity?

MR. MANDEL: In finance and accounting.

MR. SHAPIRO: And are you planning on returning to school?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I am.

MR. SHAPIRO: And when and where are you planning to return to school?

MR. MANDEL: I'm going back this fall for an MBA most likely at USC.

MR. SHAPIRO: That is a master's degree?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Business administration?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you been accepted to that school?

MR. MANDEL: I have.

MR. SHAPIRO: I want to draw your attention and ask you to tell the jury if anything unusual happened to you on June the 12th and if there is any reason to recall that date of 1994.

MR. MANDEL: Well, just that I was in this--at Mezzaluna that evening and then happened to walk by Nicole Simpson's house that evening.

MR. SHAPIRO: So you have--you are--obviously you are aware of what has been going on in the trial of Mr. O.J. Simpson?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I am.

MR. SHAPIRO: You are aware that that date has some significance?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I am.

MR. SHAPIRO: And that that restaurant has some significance?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Now, and because of that did it cause you to focus on that date and to remember what took place?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it has.

MR. SHAPIRO: Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury where you were just prior to going to Mezzaluna restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: I picked up--I was on a first date and I picked up Ellen Aaronson in her apartment.

MR. SHAPIRO: And where did Ellen Aaronson live?

MR. MANDEL: She lives on Darlington in Brentwood.

MR. SHAPIRO: Had this date been arranged by a mutual acquaintance?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it had.

MR. SHAPIRO: And who arranged that?

MR. MANDEL: This was a doctor.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you--

MR. MANDEL: We shared the same doctor.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where was Miss Aaronson's apartment?

MR. MANDEL: It is on Darlington.

MR. SHAPIRO: And do you recall where Darlington is in relationship to a location that you--did you at some point become aware of where Nicole Brown Simpson lived?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where in relationship to Nicole's condominium was Miss Aaronson's apartment?

MR. MANDEL: It is approximately one block south and one block east.

MR. SHAPIRO: What time did you arrive at Miss Aaronson's apartment?

MR. MANDEL: At a little past eight o'clock.

MR. SHAPIRO: In the evening?

MR. MANDEL: In the evening.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you leave there at some point in time?

MR. MANDEL: Yeah, shortly thereafter.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where did you go upon leaving the apartment?

MR. MANDEL: We walked to the restaurant.

MR. SHAPIRO: How did you get to Miss Aaronson's apartment?

MR. MANDEL: I drove.

MR. SHAPIRO: And you decided, however, to walk from that apartment to Mezzaluna?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you remember the route you took going to Mezzaluna?

MR. MANDEL: Generally, yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: All right. Would you kindly tell the jury the route you took.

MR. MANDEL: We left her apartment and went east on Darlington, and actually I don't know the--the cross-section, the name of the street right there, I can't be certain, but--but then we crossed over to Gorham and walked east until we got to--we entered the--what would be the back door of the Mezzaluna restaurant.

MR. SHAPIRO: Had you been to the Mezzaluna restaurant before?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I had.

MR. SHAPIRO: And this is the Mezzaluna restaurant in Brentwood?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: The same location that has been mentioned in this case, to your knowledge?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may I mark an exhibit, a map of the area, that might help Mr. Mandel in his testimony? May this be marked Defense 1230?

THE COURT: All right. Map of the area, Defense 1230.

(Deft's 1230 for id = map)

THE COURT: All right. Counsel, can you give that back to Mr. Shapiro so we can proceed.

MR. SHAPIRO: May we put this on the elmo, your Honor, with the Court's permission?

THE COURT: Please.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you.

(Brief pause.)

MR. SHAPIRO: You have a little monitor to your right, if you will kindly look there. Do you see on the map the area that you have just described to the jury?

MR. MANDEL: (No audible response.)

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

THE COURT: It is not very easy to read.

MR. MANDEL: It is not.

MR. SHAPIRO: We are going to get another copy, your Honor.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: Can you see that? Can you see Darlington up there?

MR. MANDEL: Yeah, I do see Darlington.

MR. SHAPIRO: Is that the general area where you picked up Miss Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: On Darlington, correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: And do you know--can you see from the map what street you came up on after you passed Darlington?

MR. MANDEL: Well, while walking to the restaurant you are saying?

MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.

MR. MANDEL: My orientation here is--let's see, Montana, Gorham, Darlington. Can you point out to me where--which is Bundy? I can't tell which is east and west.

MR. SHAPIRO: All right. You know what, let's take the--

MR. MANDEL: I can't read the name of the streets.

MR. SHAPIRO: That is fine. Let's just take the photograph down, your Honor, the map down. You proceeded to go to the Mezzaluna restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: How long did it take you, approximately, to get there?

MR. MANDEL: To walk to the restaurant?

MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.

MR. MANDEL: I would say ten, probably fifteen minutes.

MR. SHAPIRO: And had you made reservations at the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: No, we had not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you have to wait for a period of time?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you recall approximately how quickly you were seated?

MR. MANDEL: We were seated just as we walked in.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you have dinner at the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, we did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you recall what you ate?

MR. MANDEL: I had a pasta.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you recall what your date had?

MR. MANDEL: I would--not specifically. I believe she had a pasta as well.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you have any alcohol to drink?

MR. MANDEL: No, I didn't.

MR. SHAPIRO: What about your date, did she have any alcohol?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you know what time you left the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: I would approximate 10:15 or so.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you ever seen any records of when the check was presented to you?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I have.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you review that record?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And what did that record indicate as to the time you left the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: The time stamp was 8:55.

MS. CLARK: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: Motion to strike, your Honor.

THE COURT: The jury is to disregard it. Foundation, counsel.

MR. SHAPIRO: Yes. We will get a copy of that in a minute.

MR. SHAPIRO: What time did you leave the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: Approximately 10:15.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you refresh your memory in some way to get that time?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And how did you refresh your memory?

MR. MANDEL: Well, by--when I looked at the credit card receipt and the time stamp on it--

MS. CLARK: Objection.

THE COURT: That is what he used.

MS. CLARK: Hearsay.

THE COURT: That is not hearsay.

MR. SHAPIRO: You may complete your answer.

THE COURT: That is what he looked at to refresh his recollection.

MR. SHAPIRO: You looked at a credit card receipt to refresh your memory?

THE COURT: That is the end of the answer.

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you seen that credit card receipt subsequently?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: When have you seen it last?

MR. MANDEL: It has been many months since I last saw it.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where did you see it last?

MR. MANDEL: Probably back in January.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you left the restaurant do you recall which route you took going home? Did you take the same route you took going to the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: No, we didn't.

MR. SHAPIRO: Which route did you take going home?

MR. MANDEL: Again, we left from Mezzaluna's back door, which is on Gorham, and we walked Gorham west onto Bundy and continued Bundy until Darlington.

MR. SHAPIRO: At some point in time did you become aware of the precise location of Nicole Brown Simpson's condominium?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: And have you seen photographs of that?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you been by there?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you recall whether or not you walked by that location on June the 12th in the evening with your date, Miss Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Is there any question that you walked by that area?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you walked by that area did you notice anything unusual?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you hear anything unusual?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you hear any barking dogs?

MR. MANDEL: None.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, we would like to put on the elmo--

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: I don't know if you have been blocking this picture or not.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: I believe we have. Some people are having a little difficulty hearing you. Your Honor, may we request--

THE COURT: Yes. Pull it a little closer.

MR. MANDEL: (Witness complies.)

THE COURT: There we go.

MR. SHAPIRO: Feel free to speak up.

MR. MANDEL: Okay.

THE COURT: All right. No photography of this item.

MR. SHAPIRO: I want you to look at the monitor now and can you describe to the jury whether or not that is a location that you have seen before?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it is.

MR. SHAPIRO: And what location is that?

MR. MANDEL: That is 875 Bundy, the--

MR. SHAPIRO: When you walked by that location on the 12th, did you see any blood in the area that is depicted in the photograph?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you see the shape or silhouette of the body of a person when you walked by?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MR. SHAPIRO: And you have told us you heard no barking dogs?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you have any way of relating to this jury what time you walked by that condominium?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: How can you relate what time it was?

MR. MANDEL: Well, both by knowing the credit card time and having approximation of how long I sat before I left, and then also when I was on Darlington a few houses down from Ellen's apartment I happened to glance at my watch and--

MR. SHAPIRO: What time was it when you glanced at your watch?

MR. MANDEL: It was at the bottom of the hour, approximately 10:30. It could be a minute or two before or after.

MR. SHAPIRO: And how far was that location from 875 south Bundy when you looked at your watch?

MR. MANDEL: In time it is probably about three--three-minute walk, three or four-minute walk.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you walked that since that night?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I have.

MR. SHAPIRO: And were you able to mark the amount of time it took?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And is that how you have come up with this estimate?

MR. MANDEL: Yeah.

MR. SHAPIRO: Was there anything unusual whatsoever, at approximately 10:30 on June the 12th, that you recall when you walked by the condominium of Nicole Brown Simpson?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: May I just have a moment, your Honor?

THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, which exhibit was that that you used on the elmo?

MR. SHAPIRO: That is People's 42, your Honor, for the record.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. COCHRAN: May I have a second, your Honor?

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: Now, you have discussed the areas of your testimony with the jury with me prior to your testimony; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: With the jury?

MR. SHAPIRO: What you've talked about today, did you discuss that with me?

MR. MANDEL: Correct, yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: That was a couple weeks ago?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you also have the opportunity of talking to anybody from the District Attorney's office?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: With whom did you talk to at the District Attorney's office?

MR. MANDEL: With Marcia Clark and with Bill Hodgman.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you tell them what you have told the jury here?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, we would, with the Court's permission, like to show a diagram of the area. It is on its way, and perhaps we might want to ask the Court to--

THE COURT: I think we already have several diagrams, and if you recollect, part of the crime scene view with the jury was to give them the relationship of the Mezzaluna restaurant and its proximity to Bundy add perhaps Mrs. Robertson can assist us with this.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you. We would appreciate that.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you tell the members of the District Attorney's office about the receipt from the Mezzaluna restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you tell them how you were able to gauge the time?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you see any footprints that looked like bloody paw prints in the area as you were walking on 875 south Bundy?

MR. MANDEL: No, I didn't.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you recall how long you spent with members of the District Attorney's office?

MR. MANDEL: I was in the office probably approximately an hour.

MR. SHAPIRO: And do you recall when you talked to them?

MR. MANDEL: What month?

MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.

MR. MANDEL: Back in I believe it was September.

MR. SHAPIRO: Of 1994?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: May I just have a moment, please?

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: We understand it is downstairs, your Honor.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

THE COURT: All right. What is your ETA for your exhibit?

MR. COCHRAN: Within five minutes.

MR. DOUGLAS: Their board and our board.

THE COURT: All right. Then Mr. Shapiro, how about if we start with the cross-examination. I will allow you to reopen as to the diagram.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: Now, Mr. Mandel, your first statement, actually your first belief was actually that you were at the location of 875 south Bundy at about eleven o'clock, correct?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: Or was that Miss Aaronson's first belief?

MR. MANDEL: I don't know.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall that she spoke to the police before you did?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And it was after she spoke to the police that they contacted you?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And initially when you spoke to the police you believed that you had walked back from the Mezzaluna by a different route than you have explained to us today, correct?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: You don't recall telling me back in September of 1994 that you initially thought you had walked out on Gorham and gone down--and gone down Westgate? Do you recall telling me that, sir, back in September of 1994?

MR. MANDEL: No. I pointed out on the map the direction, but I couldn't recall the street names and I told you I would call you when I got home, which I did.

MS. CLARK: But you initially told me, sir, did you not, that you thought you had taken a different route and you wanted to change that statement? Don't you recall telling me that?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: But if you had walked down Westgate you would never have come anywhere near south Bundy, correct?

MR. MANDEL: I'm not sure where Westgate and south Bundy intersect.

MS. CLARK: We are going to have a chart for you and you can show the jury. If you would have taken that Westgate route you would never have gone onto Bundy at all, correct?

MR. MANDEL: As I said, I don't know where they intersect.

MS. CLARK: All right. The route that you took to Mezzaluna took you down Darlington up and up Westgate; is that right? And actually--let me put it more easily before I get the chart. The route you took to Mezzaluna did not take you on Bundy; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: And that was a very direct path from her apartment to the Mezzaluna; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: Fairly direct, yes.

MS. CLARK: And is it your testimony, sir, at this time, that when you walked down Bundy you walked on the west side of Bundy?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And that would mean that you would have to not only cross Bundy once going from the Mezzaluna, going from the east side of Bundy to west, but that you would have to cross Bundy back again going from west to east to go back to her apartment; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That is correct.

MS. CLARK: And Bundy is a curving street, is it not, sir?

MR. MANDEL: It is.

MS. CLARK: And the intersection of Gorham and Bundy is uncontrolled for Bundy, it is only a stop sign for Gorham; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: That is correct.

MS. CLARK: And it was very dark there that night, wasn't it?

MR. MANDEL: Moderately dark.

MS. CLARK: Moderately dark?

MR. MANDEL: I don't know how you gauge it. It was nighttime.

MS. CLARK: All right. You identified that photograph for us today as 875 south Bundy, didn't you?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Were you noticing all the addresses of the places that you were walking passed that night?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: As you--

MR. MANDEL: No, I didn't.

MS. CLARK: As you walked down the street on Bundy, did you look up each pathway to see what was at the end of each pathway?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MS. CLARK: You were talking with Miss Aaronson; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: That was your first date with her, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: You were not looking to see the details of each house you were passing, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Were you looking to see if there was any blood on any walkway, sir?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: As a matter of fact, you had to cross from the west side to the east side of Bundy; isn't that right, to go back to her apartment?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And you can tell us--can you tell us for sure right now at what point on Bundy you crossed from the west side to the east side?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And how can you do that, sir?

MR. MANDEL: Based on my recollection.

MS. CLARK: Let me ask you something: Was that the first blind date you have ever had?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: You have had others since then; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Probably, yes.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh. Have you ever taken a walk with any of those blind dates, sir?

MR. MANDEL: Probably not.

MS. CLARK: Never took a walk with another blind date?

MR. MANDEL: Not that I recall, no.

MS. CLARK: Ever taken a walk with a woman before Miss Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: How about since?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Can you trace the route of each woman you walked with?

MR. MANDEL: Specifically, yes, if I guess we start talking individually and I recall the date, I could.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Whoop, whoop.

MS. CLARK: I'm sorry.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Miss Clark, let the professionals do that.

MS. CLARK: I know. Thank you, Jonathan. All right. For the record, we have put up People's 26 and do not attempt this at home.

THE COURT: Don't give up your day job.

MS. CLARK: All right. I'm showing you People's 26, sir. Do you see where that yellow dot is on that chart?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I do.

MS. CLARK: And does that yellow dot pretty much accurately describe the location of the Mezzaluna?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it does.

MS. CLARK: Is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And can you tell us where in relation to Dorothy Darlington would be?

MR. MANDEL: This next block.

MS. CLARK: One block south; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Now, can you show us approximately on that chart--actually, you know, what? Let's use the elmo. You can sit right there and look at your monitor. I'm going to show you that chart on the monitor. And Mr. Fairtlough, if you could move that just a little bit up so that we get more of the south area, south area. There you go. Thank you. If you would, sir, look at this chart now. I'm going to ask you direct the arrow--make it red. There you go.--the cross, to the location approximately of ms. Aaronson's apartment?

MR. MANDEL: Bring it down, a little more, onto--onto Darlington which is the block south of Dorothy and a bit closer towards Bundy. I mean still on Darlington but bring it approximately there, (Indicating).

MS. CLARK: There?

MR. MANDEL: Yeah.

MS. CLARK: Would you mark that. Thank you.

MS. CLARK: All right. Now, you stated you got there a little after eight o'clock?

MR. MANDEL: To Mezzaluna?

MS. CLARK: No, to her apartment.

MR. MANDEL: I mean, yes. To her apartment, yes.

MS. CLARK: And how many minutes after eight o'clock did you get there?

MR. MANDEL: I think about five minutes after 8:00.

MS. CLARK: Did you look at your watch?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: That is an estimate; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: It is.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And then you talked to her a little bit in her apartment; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And do you know exactly how many minutes you spoke to her in her apartment?

MR. MANDEL: Not exactly, no.

MS. CLARK: Did you look at your watch when you left?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MS. CLARK: But you left at some point after five minutes, after 8:00 approximately, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: So your estimate is that it is sometime after eight o'clock you left her apartment; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: You don't know exactly when; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: When you walked--I would like for you now to direct the arrow and show the jury what route you took to the Mezzaluna that night when you left Miss Aaronson's apartment.

MR. MANDEL: Okay. I don't recall specifically. All I know is that we took Darlington going east, so that direction, and--

MS. CLARK: Can you create a line, John?

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: Sure.

MS. CLARK: Thanks.

MR. MANDEL: And I just--I'm not certain. I believe that we took a left there to Gorham and then a right towards Mezzaluna.

MS. CLARK: You are not sure?

MR. MANDEL: No, I'm not sure on the way there.

MS. CLARK: You are not sure what route you took on the way there; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: You think you took a left at the street that is the intersection that the arrow is at right now, which would be Westgate?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I do.

MS. CLARK: You are not sure?

MR. MANDEL: Not on my way there, no.

MS. CLARK: It could have been the next street up that you took a left at; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: That is possible.

MS. CLARK: So you are guessing; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it is.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Go ahead and make a left there. Could we show a dotted line? I'm going to make a left with a dotted line at this intersection.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: Stop. There you go.

MS. CLARK: Now, are you sure that you went all the way on Westgate there or could you have made another right at Dorothy and then maybe another left and a right to go up to the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: As I said, going to the restaurant--to the restaurant, I don't recall.

MS. CLARK: You don't recall?

MR. MANDEL: Ellen led us there.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh. So you think you might have gone this way, you are not sure on the way to, correct?

MR. MANDEL: All right.

MS. CLARK: But if you did turn left at Westgate, you would have turned again right--right-hand on Gorham, correct?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: Now, Miss Aaronson's apartment, is it on the north or the south side of Darlington?

MR. MANDEL: On the north.

MS. CLARK: And so if you take that route, you can walk on the same side of the street, crossing only at the intersection of--what is that--Gorham and Westgate in order on get to the Mezzaluna; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: And you never have to cross Bundy at all, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: So you left Miss Aaronson's apartment you estimate at some point after eight o'clock?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And it took you how long to walk to the Mezzaluna taking that direct route?

MR. MANDEL: I would say approximately ten, maybe fifteen minutes.

MS. CLARK: Were you looking at your watch?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: You didn't time that, did you?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: You are just estimating for this jury, aren't you?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I am.

MS. CLARK: And you got to the Mezzaluna, you had dinner, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: How long exactly did you spend having dinner with Miss Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: I can't say exactly.

MS. CLARK: You don't know because you weren't looking at your watch; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: You were on a date?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And after you finished eating you left the restaurant, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Did you look at your watch at the time that you left?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MS. CLARK: You don't know exactly what time you left; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: You said that you paid your bill with a credit card, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And that after you paid you stayed in the restaurant for some period of time?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And you did not look at your watch to see how long you spent in the restaurant after you paid the bill?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: A woman waited on you; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, she did.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall what she looked like?

MR. MANDEL: I recall that she was attractive, darker skin.

MS. CLARK: Ponytail? Her hair was in a ponytail?

MR. MANDEL: I don't recall.

MS. CLARK: Do you know her name?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: You have been watching this trial; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, here and there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Do you recall seeing the people that testified that were working at the Mezzaluna that night?

MR. MANDEL: No, not specifically.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall seeing a waitress by the name of Tia Gavin testify?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: Does that name ring a bell?

MR. MANDEL: No, it doesn't.

MS. CLARK: So you paid the bill and at some point after you paid the bill, you are not sure how long, you and Miss Aaronson left, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And when you left you state that you walked out the back door of the Mezzaluna?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Can you describe the back door of the Mezzaluna that you say you walked out of?

MR. MANDEL: There is a little patio, I believe it goes--there is a little zigzag to go down to the street.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And you could just walk out the door? You didn't have to step over any railing or fence or anything?

MR. MANDEL: Actually I think I did hop over a railing.

MS. CLARK: And why--for what reason did you take the back door?

MR. MANDEL: It is closer toward the direction that we were going.

MS. CLARK: Now, after you left, you went back to the restaurant to look for your keys; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Momentarily after.

MS. CLARK: And when you went back into the restaurant there was no one else there; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: No other patrons.

MS. CLARK: No other customers?

MR. MANDEL: It was very empty. There may have been one other table.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall telling myself and Mr. Hodgman, back in September of 1994, that when you went back to the restaurant to look for your keys you saw no other person there?

MR. MANDEL: That sounds familiar, yes.

MS. CLARK: And who did you speak to about looking for your keys when you went back into the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: Nobody.

MS. CLARK: You just looked?

MR. MANDEL: They were just on my seat. I had then between my legs when I was sitting there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So you went back into the restaurant, retrieved your keys and then went back out again, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Did you look to see how long it took you between the time you left the restaurant, went back in to get your keys and went back out again?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MS. CLARK: So when you actually left the restaurant for the last time you do not know what time it was; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: Miss Aaronson waited outside the restaurant for you when you did that?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And then she and you walked out of the restaurant; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Now, look at the chart, if you will, People's 26.

MR. MANDEL: (Witness complies.)

MS. CLARK: Can you indicate to us what route you took to leave the Mezzaluna?

THE COURT: All right. Miss Clark, before we start on that, I think we need to take a break.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take our mid-morning recess. Please remember all my admonitions to you. Mr. Mandel, you may step down. You are ordered to return in fifteen minutes. All right.

(Recess.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. All right. Deputy Magnera, let's have the jurors, please. Hold on, Mr. Mandel.

(Brief pause.)

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may we approach for a moment?

THE COURT: Certainly.

(A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Back on the record. All parties are again present. The jury has rejoined us. Mr. Mandel, would you resume the witness stand, please. And pull the microphone close up to you, please. And Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.

MS. CLARK: All right. Now, over the break period here you have had a chance to confer with Mr. Shapiro and the members of the Defense team, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you have made an effort to have the receipt from the Mezzaluna sent in here; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: As a matter of fact, after the events of June the 13th, at some point you actually wrote a letter to your credit card company to get them to send you a copy of your receipt?

MR. MANDEL: I telephoned them.

MS. CLARK: And you made that effort to get the receipt because you thought it was important to find out exactly when you had been at the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: A police detective from the LAPD asked me to do it.

MS. CLARK: Okay. That was after July the 12th; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And July the 12th is when you spoke to the police officer; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That sounds correct.

MS. CLARK: You had never spoken to any police officer before that date; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's right.

MS. CLARK: And you watched this preliminary hearing for this case on television at some point, did you not?

MR. MANDEL: I believe I caught a little bit.

MS. CLARK: And so the first time that you spoke to a police officer on this case was after the preliminary hearing had been completed?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And it was at some point after that that you spoke to the Defense; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: When was the first time you spoke to the Defense?

MR. MANDEL: I don't recall the month. It was many, many months later, perhaps--I don't really recall. Maybe January.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Now, after you spoke to the police officer you wrote or you called in to your credit card company to get a copy of your receipt because you did not remember what time you left the Mezzaluna; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: I had an idea, but when I looked at the credit card time, I knew it couldn't be right, so I called.

MS. CLARK: You say you had an idea you thought it was sometime between 10:00 and 11:00; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: I thought it would be a little bit after 10:00 when I left.

MS. CLARK: You did not know exactly when you had left; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Exactly, no.

MS. CLARK: And you still don't, do you?

MR. MANDEL: Not exactly.

MS. CLARK: And you still don't know exactly when you walked down Bundy; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Not exactly.

MS. CLARK: And you still don't know when it was that you crossed Bundy from the west side to the east side, what time it was?

MR. MANDEL: Not exactly.

MS. CLARK: And you still don't know exactly what time it was when you actually got down to the end of Bundy--excuse me--to the--strike that. Now, before you ever spoke to a police officer in this case, you spoke to Miss Aaronson several times about when you left the Mezzaluna and where you walked; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: I think we spoke once or twice.

MS. CLARK: Now, that blind date, that was the first time you had ever met her on June the 12th; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That is true.

MS. CLARK: That was a set-up by your doctor, mutual doctor?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Has he set you up since?

MR. MANDEL: Attempted.

MS. CLARK: I'm sorry. Now, when you--did you ever go out on a date with Miss Aaronson again after that night?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: So the only occasion you had to speak to her was because of this case; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And that is all you talked about was this case; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Just small talk, how you doing?

MS. CLARK: But the reason you got in touch with her was to talk about what time you left the Mezzaluna and where you walked when you left the Mezzaluna; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Generally, yes.

MS. CLARK: You talked to her at least once, maybe more than that?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Two or three times perhaps?

MR. MANDEL: Two perhaps, yes.

MS. CLARK: That was before you ever spoke to a police officer on June the 12th; isn't that right--excuse me, July 12; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: So July 12th, one month after the walk--the date you had with Miss Aaronson on June the 12th was the first time that you spoke to a police officer, right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And by that time you had spoken to Miss Aaronson two, maybe three times about where you walked and when you walked there?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And after that time that you spoke to the police officer, you spoke to Miss Aaronson again about this case, did you not?

MR. MANDEL: I don't recall specifically.

MS. CLARK: You don't recall? Do you recall telling me in September of 1994 that you spoke to her again before coming into the office to see myself and Mr. Hodgman?

MR. MANDEL: No, I don't recall specifically.

MS. CLARK: You don't recall that?

MR. MANDEL: Not specifically. I don't recall how many times we spoke.

MS. CLARK: You have spoken, though, with her since July 12th, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And you had a date with her since then?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: So the occasion for you to speak to her was about this case and the events that occurred on the night of June the 12th; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And how many times have you spoken to her since July 12th about this case?

THE COURT: I think we have gone over this now three times.

MS. CLARK: No, I'm talking about a different time period, your Honor. That was before July the 12th and now it is after.

THE COURT: Mr. Mandel?

MR. MANDEL: I remember we spoke on the day of the opening argument and then I don't think we spoke again since.

MS. CLARK: You saw her when you came into court today, didn't you?

MR. MANDEL: Well, yeah, since last week.

MS. CLARK: Since the last week?

MR. MANDEL: (Nods head up and down.)

MS. CLARK: Is that yes?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: How many times have you seen her in the last week?

MR. MANDEL: I crossed by her one time earlier last week.

MS. CLARK: In the courthouse?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: Where?

MR. MANDEL: In Mr. Cochran's office.

MS. CLARK: In Mr. Cochran's office?

MR. MANDEL: (Nods head up and down.)

MS. CLARK: Yes?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Did you speak to Mr. Cochran?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: And when was that?

MR. MANDEL: That was a week ago Monday.

MS. CLARK: Was that the only time you spoke with Mr. Cochran?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it was.

MS. CLARK: And for how long did you speak to him?

MR. MANDEL: Just for, I don't know, maybe twenty minutes.

MS. CLARK: And did he take any notes or make any report of your statement?

MR. MANDEL: No, I don't think he took any notes.

MS. CLARK: Did he tape-record your statement, if you know?

MR. MANDEL: I don't believe so.

MS. CLARK: Who else was present when you spoke to him?

MR. MANDEL: Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Douglas, Mr. Bailey.

MS. CLARK: What about ms. Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: And you spoke to him for how long, to all of them for how long?

MR. MANDEL: Perhaps twenty minutes.

MS. CLARK: After you spoke to them did you see--or before you spoke to them did you see Miss Aaronson at the office?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: Where was she?

MR. MANDEL: She was leaving.

MS. CLARK: And did you speak to her briefly before she left?

MR. MANDEL: Just hi, how are you?

MS. CLARK: And did you see her again after that point?

MR. MANDEL: Not until this morning.

MS. CLARK: And you saw her outside here in the court building?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: And did you talk to her?

MR. MANDEL: Again just small talk, hi, how you doing?

MS. CLARK: And you have spoken to Mr. Shapiro this morning before you began your testimony?

MR. MANDEL: Not before I began, no.

MS. CLARK: But at the break during your testimony, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Now, sir, you indicated to us that you, since June the 12th, walked--attempted to walk the route you believe you took back from Mezzaluna to Miss Aaronson's apartment on June the 12th?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. CLARK: And that you timed it or attempted to time it?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: How many times did you do that, sir?

MR. MANDEL: We did that twice.

MS. CLARK: You say "We." Who did you do that with?

MR. MANDEL: The attorney.

MS. CLARK: Which attorney is that?

MR. MANDEL: I did that with Mr. Bailey, perhaps one month ago, and then with Mr. Neufeld last--a week ago Monday.

MS. CLARK: Do either one of them look like Miss Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: No, they don't.

MS. CLARK: And was it at night that you walked with them or during the day?

MR. MANDEL: It was in the evening.

MS. CLARK: What time?

MR. MANDEL: Approximately 10:00 to 10:30.

MS. CLARK: And what did you talk to them about as you were walking?

MR. MANDEL: We were just again small talk. I think we were talking about my going back to school and we were trying to reenact to get an approximate pace.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh. Did it feel the same walking with Mr. Neufeld as it did walking with Miss Aaronson on June the 12th?

MR. MANDEL: We were just walking and talking.

MS. CLARK: Did it feel the same?

THE COURT: Counsel, I don't think we need that.

MS. CLARK: Let me ask you something, sir. Back on June the 12th did you live in that neighborhood?

MR. MANDEL: Back then I did not, no.

MS. CLARK: Did you at any point--had you ever lived in that neighborhood?

MR. MANDEL: Not at that point. I do currently.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Then let me ask you this: Westgate, is that a fairly quiet street, sir?

MR. MANDEL: I really can't make a judgment. Like I said, I live in the area, but I don't live right there in those couple of blocks. I don't really know Westgate specifically.

MS. CLARK: Well, you walked on Westgate that night, correct?

MR. MANDEL: It was quiet that night.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And relatively speaking, would you say Westgate is busier or quieter than Bundy?

MR. MANDEL: If I were going to make a guess I would say that Bundy is probably a busier street.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And the other street, Granville, that is one block up from Westgate as you look at this map--you see where you have the red line this, that would be Westgate, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Crossing Dorothy you are saying?

MS. CLARK: Correct.

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. If you go the next parallel street--

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: --that would cross Dorothy, that would be Granville correct?

MR. MANDEL: I don't know the name of the street.

MS. CLARK: But is that a fairly quiet street compared to Bundy, also?

MR. MANDEL: I believe so.

MS. CLARK: Now, prior to June the 12th, you had never visited 875 south Bundy; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's right.

MS. CLARK: If I asked you to describe any of the houses in that block on Bundy, in the block of 875 south Bundy, would you have been able to do so?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: And as of June the 12th, before you--excuse me. As of June the 13th, before you heard about the murders, could you have described for us the location of 875 south Bundy?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: And you never walked up the walkway of 875 south Bundy; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's right.

MS. CLARK: And when you walked down 875--when you walked down Bundy with Miss Aaronson, did you walk on the outside of the sidewalk or the inside of the sidewalk?

MR. MANDEL: I was on the inside.

MS. CLARK: You were on the inside closest to the walkway?

MR. MANDEL: Closest--yes, closest to the house.

MS. CLARK: As you were walking with her and talking to her, I think you indicated earlier you were not looking up the walkway to each house, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: You were trying to get to know Miss Aaronson; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: We were just making small talk, correct.

MS. CLARK: You were paying attention to her, correct?

MR. MANDEL: This small talk--yeah, I was paying attention to her.

MS. CLARK: Your first date?

MR. MANDEL: (No audible response.)

MS. CLARK: All right. Now, you indicated to us that you weren't sure exactly what route you took to Mezzaluna, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: One route that we have here I would like to be marked People's 493, your Honor.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object that this is speculative.

THE COURT: Yes.

(Peo's 493 for id = diagram)

MS. CLARK: No, that was the witness--

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

MS. CLARK: That is one route you may have taken according to your testimony, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Maybe. I may have taken, yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Print that.

MS. CLARK: All right. Now, I'm going to ask you, sir--

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: Start again at the same point on Darlington. Can you put the cross where it should be, Mr. Mandel?

MR. MANDEL: It should be right there on that street.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Can you tell us another route you may have taken?

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object. This is totally speculative. We would stipulate that there are several routes.

THE COURT: Overruled. But this may be cumulative at some point in time.

MS. CLARK: I won't do it ad nauseam, your Honor.

MS. CLARK: Go ahead. Another possible way to the restaurant that you could have taken that night?

MR. MANDEL: I mean, I guess I could have gone down Darlington going east.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

THE COURT: Mr. Mandel, is there any of these possible routes that you feel more strongly the possibility that you took?

MR. MANDEL: I just don't recall specifically how I got there. I believe I went--we went left on Westgate, but whether we took Dorothy down and made another left or whether we continued to Gorham and made the right, I just don't recall that.

MS. CLARK: All right. Wait, wait, wait, stop. You didn't need to necessarily take a left on Westgate, but that is what you believe at this time?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: All right.

THE COURT: Counsel, I don't think we need to draw all the different routes.

MS. CLARK: May we approach?

THE COURT: No.

MS. CLARK: Just this one then? One?

THE COURT: The jury knows it is a possible route. He doesn't remember. The jury can figure out the different permutations on how to get from point a to point B.

MS. CLARK: All right.

MS. CLARK: Let me ask you this, Mr. Mandel: In order to get back to the Darlington location from Mezzaluna, you could have gone down Gorham and made a left at Granville, correct?

MR. MANDEL: That is a possible way.

MS. CLARK: Stop. Back up.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object. This is speculative.

MS. CLARK: Made a left here and gone down to Darlington--

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. CLARK: And made a right and gone all the way down to Miss Aaronson's apartment that way, correct?

MR. MANDEL: That would be one way of going there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And then another way would have been to go down Gorham and make a left at Westgate; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that would be yet another way.

MS. CLARK: Now, if you had taken either one of those routes and gone--if you had taken either one of those routes, you never would have gone onto Bundy at all, would you?

MR. MANDEL: That's true.

MS. CLARK: But instead it is your testimony that you went all the way down Gorham?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And then you actually crossed--can we do this--great, thanks. I'm going to ask you to direct the arrow and tell the jury what route you took.

MR. MANDEL: We went down Gorham towards Bundy, it is a rather large intersection at Bundy and Gorham, and we came around there to the left.

MS. CLARK: Now, you crossed Bundy; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it is.

MS. CLARK: And you went to the opposite side of Bundy; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's right.

MS. CLARK: And you went down Bundy?

MR. MANDEL: Until just before the intersection of Darlington and Bundy.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Now, wait a minute. At this point you are still on the--you are going to have to back up. You are still on the west side of the street?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: So you actually had to cross Bundy, correct, to stay on the west side?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's correct.

MS. CLARK: And then you crossed Dorothy and you were still on the west side; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: That is your testimony?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's right.

MS. CLARK: You are sure about that?

MR. MANDEL: I'm positive.

MS. CLARK: And you continued to the west side of Bundy until almost--stop--tell it where to stop. I'm telling him to stop.

MR. MANDEL: Yes. Until just before the intersection of Darlington and Bundy and then we crossed--I think there is a driveway right there and we just diagonally went across the street onto Darlington onto the north side of Darlington.

MS. CLARK: So you went diagonally across the street and you had to cross back to the east side, correct?

MR. MANDEL: The east side of Bundy, correct.

MS. CLARK: So you didn't just stay on the east side of Bundy to begin with, you actually crossed over to the west side of Bundy which made you then have to cross back on the east side again at the intersection of Bundy and Darlington?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, argumentative.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. CLARK: Correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct. We were always on the west side of Bundy.

MS. CLARK: As you walked you were talking to Miss Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: It was fairly dark?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: You were not trying to look and see if there was blood on the walkway or blood on the sidewalk, correct?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: And you got--when you got to the location--at some point you looked at your watch; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's right.

MS. CLARK: And where was it that you looked at your watch?

MR. MANDEL: It was at about the midpoint between that intersection of Bundy and Darlington and where Ellen's apartment is. There is a driveway--there is like an alleyway.

MS. CLARK: And can you show--can you direct the arrow to that point?

MR. MANDEL: Yeah. If you go on--well, it is right between the pink line and the first parking of Ellen's apartment, approximately there, (Indicating).

THE COURT: Can you change the orientation of the arrow? I think that would be more helpful.

MS. CLARK: Is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: Well, I mean a little closer towards the "X." Yeah, approximately there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. You are not sure exactly where you were when you looked at your watch; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: It was near that alley. I just can't tell exactly on this where that was.

MS. CLARK: And when you looked at your watch you thought it was about 10:30?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: You are not sure actually, somewhere around 10:30, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And at that point you made an estimate of how long it had been since you passed by the location of 875 south Bundy?

MR. MANDEL: I didn't do that that evening, but--

MS. CLARK: You have done that since then?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I have.

MS. CLARK: When was the first time you did that?

MR. MANDEL: I suppose I began thinking about it, you know, back the week--that week in June.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So it was, what, a couple days after it happened?

MR. MANDEL: I don't know. Perhaps in the--yeah, a couple days after.

MS. CLARK: And all you could do was estimate because you were not looking at your watch when you crossed--when you say you walked down across 875 south Bundy, correct?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. MANDEL: I did not look at my watch when I was at 875, no.

MS. CLARK: You didn't look at your watch at any point when you were walking down Bundy, did you?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: You didn't look at your watch when you left the restaurant, did you?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: And the only time you remember looking at your watch at this point was when you got down to Darlington; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: When you say now it was about 10:30, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you then walked Miss Aaronson home; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's right.

MS. CLARK: How long did you stay at her apartment?

MR. MANDEL: I stayed until probably eleven o'clock, approximately eleven o'clock.

MS. CLARK: Did you hear any dogs barking at any point that night?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MS. CLARK: And when you left her apartment did you drive?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: And where did you drive?

MR. MANDEL: I headed east on Darlington.

MS. CLARK: And did you hear any dogs barking at that time?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MS. CLARK: You didn't live in the neighborhood, correct?

MR. MANDEL: No, I didn't.

MS. CLARK: So you never heard any dogs barking at any time that night, did you?

MR. MANDEL: Nothing that I can recollect, no.

MS. CLARK: You have no recollection of any dogs barking?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: May I have a moment?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: May I mark this printout, your Honor, first of all, as People's--should I give it its own number or 493-A?

THE COURT: No, 494.

MS. CLARK: 494.

(Peo's 494 for id = computer printout)

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: We are done. Thank you. Nothing further.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much, your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

MR. SHAPIRO: Mr. Mandel, the first person in an official capacity that you talked to about this case was a member of the Los Angeles Police Department?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's true.

MR. SHAPIRO: And when you talked to that person did you tell them that you went by the location of Nicole Brown Simpson's condominium on June the 12th?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you tell them it was approximately 10:30?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you tell them that you did not hear any dog bark?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you tell them that you did not hear any dog wail?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you tell them that you did not see any dog?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: And that person asked you to get a copy of your receipt for dinner?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you do that?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may I mark as Defense next a--

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you call the credit card company?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did they send you back correspondence with a copy of your credit card receipt?

MR. MANDEL: Yeah, that is what they did.

MR. SHAPIRO: May that be--may this be marked--

THE COURT: 1241.

MR. SHAPIRO: 1241.

THE COURT: Excuse me. 1231.

MR. SHAPIRO: 1231.

(Deft's 1231 for id = document)

MR. SHAPIRO: I have given a copy to Miss Clark. And 1232.

(Deft's 1232 for id = document)

MR. SHAPIRO: And do you have a copy of that receipt at your office?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I do.

MR. SHAPIRO: And at the break did we have a conversation?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, we did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you approach me?

MR. MANDEL: No, you approached me.

MR. SHAPIRO: Okay. And what was the conversation about?

MR. MANDEL: If I could retrieve that receipt.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: All right. Let me--may I approach, your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

MR. SHAPIRO: We will substitute later.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you have the original of that receipt now?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I do. I have it in my office.

MR. SHAPIRO: Can you have that forwarded here and we can exchange that?

MR. MANDEL: Sure.

MR. SHAPIRO: Is this a copy of the letter, no. 1231, that came back with that receipt?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it is.

MR. SHAPIRO: And this is a copy of the receipt there?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Is there a date on that receipt?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, there is.

MR. SHAPIRO: What is the date?

MR. MANDEL: June 12, 1994.

MR. SHAPIRO: And is there a name of a restaurant on that receipt?

MR. MANDEL: It is the Mezzaluna cafe.

MR. SHAPIRO: And is there an amount on that receipt?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, there is.

MR. SHAPIRO: What is the amount?

MR. MANDEL: 47.48.

MR. SHAPIRO: I know it is a fax copy, but can you decipher what the time is on that receipt?

MR. MANDEL: The time is printed 8:55.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you saw that the first time, did you think that was an error?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: What did do you after seeing that?

MR. MANDEL: I called the restaurant.

MR. SHAPIRO: And as a result of that did you determine that it was an error?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And that the time clock was an hour off?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Objection, that calls for hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: Motion to strike.

THE COURT: The answer is stricken. However--

MR. SHAPIRO: There is testimony.

THE COURT: --the record from the Mezzaluna witnesses is already in existence.

MR. SHAPIRO: The People established that.

THE COURT: Proceed.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you know O.J. Simpson?

MR. MANDEL: No, I don't.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you ever met him?

MR. MANDEL: No, I haven't.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you have any interest in the outcome of this case?

MR. MANDEL: No, I don't.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you here to testify for any particular side?

MR. MANDEL: No, I'm not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you here to testify for any particular point of view?

MR. MANDEL: No, I'm not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Why are you here?

MR. MANDEL: Because I was in that area that evening and I felt it might be relevant.

MR. SHAPIRO: And you were subpoenaed to come to court by the Defense?

MR. MANDEL: And I was subpoenaed, correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Miss Clark asked you about other dates. I mean, has there ever been another date you have been somewhere something this horrendous happened?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Would it be fair to say that is why this event is fresh in your mind?

MS. CLARK: Well, objection. That is leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. SHAPIRO: You told Miss Clark that you weren't sure how you got to Mezzaluna?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: From Miss Aaronson's apartment. Did she lead the way?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, she did.

MR. SHAPIRO: However, coming back, how sure are you that you passed the condominium where Nicole Brown Simpson lived?

MR. MANDEL: I'm positive.

MR. SHAPIRO: No question about it whatever?

MR. MANDEL: No question.

MR. SHAPIRO: How certain are you that you passed that area shortly in the area of 10:30 P.M.?

MR. MANDEL: I'm certain.

MR. SHAPIRO: How certain are you that there was not a dog barking?

MR. MANDEL: I have no recollection of one, so I'm certain.

MR. SHAPIRO: How certain are you that there was not a dog wailing?

MR. MANDEL: I'm certain.

MR. SHAPIRO: How certain that there was not a dog in the area?

MR. MANDEL: I'm certain.

MR. SHAPIRO: Is there any reason why you would come and in any way shade the truth to this jury?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: May I just have a moment, your Honor?

THE COURT: Certainly.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: I have nothing further. Thank you very much.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: Mr. Mandel, you are certain there was no dog in the area?

MR. MANDEL: I'm certain that I don't have a recollection of a dog wailing.

MS. CLARK: You are certain you not did not see a dog in the area; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: You are certain you do not recall hearing a dog in the area; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: If other witnesses did hear a dog in the area, does that mean they are all wrong, Mr. Mandel?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for speculation, argumentative.

THE COURT: Argumentative.

MS. CLARK: You are certain of what you recall; isn't that right, sir?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: You cannot sit here and tell this jury that there was no dog in the neighborhood at that time, can you?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, argumentative.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. SHAPIRO: That it wasn't his testimony.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. MANDEL: Just that I didn't see one.

MS. CLARK: That is all you can say; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: When you were on a blind date walking down a dark street with Miss Aaronson on the night of June the 12th, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you said that you were walking on the west side of Bundy. You are sure of that?

MR. MANDEL: I'm positive.

MS. CLARK: Positive of that?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Now, Miss Aaronson had to lead you to the Mezzaluna, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Because you didn't know how to get there?

MR. MANDEL: I knew where it was. She lived in the area so we--we were walking together. It wasn't--she was basically leading the way.

MS. CLARK: She lived in the area; you did not, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And so she led the way to the Mezzaluna, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And she led the way back also; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that is right.

MS. CLARK: And when you--if--you were walking westbound on Bundy, crossing the area of 875 south Bundy, passed that location, at about 10:25, between 10:20, 10:25, correct?

THE COURT: Excuse me, counsel. Do you want to rephrase that.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, that misstates the evidence.

THE COURT: That is what I was about to point out.

MS. CLARK: Let me back up for a minute, sir.

THE COURT: Rephrase the question.

MS. CLARK: You got your receipt and it said on the receipt that you paid your bill at the Mezzaluna at 8:50--8:55? Is that your testimony?

MR. MANDEL: (No audible response.)

MS. CLARK: Is that right?

MR. MANDEL: It is stamped 8:55, but I believe it was 9:55.

MS. CLARK: And you are basing your estimate of when you left the restaurant on the information you received that that time clock was an hour off?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: Because you did not look at your watch when you left?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: And if the clock is actually an hour and ten minutes off, you wouldn't know--your time estimate about when you walked past about 875 south Bundy would also be incorrect, wouldn't it?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, your Honor, assumes a fact not in evidence.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. MANDEL: My best time reference is for when I looked at my watch on Darlington.

MS. CLARK: And you do not know whether that clock--the time stamp on your receipt is exactly an hour off or 50 minutes off or an hour and ten minutes off, do you?

MR. MANDEL: I couldn't be certain, no.

MS. CLARK: Now, tell us, is it your testimony, sir, that you walked past 875 south Bundy sometime between 10:20 and 10:30?

MR. MANDEL: I would say approximately 10:25.

MS. CLARK: Or between 10:25 and 10:30?

MR. MANDEL: I would say it is probably closer to 10:25 than 10:30.

MS. CLARK: So if you were walking down Bundy, passing 875 south Bundy at about 10:25, that means that you would have gone--you would have crossed Dorothy at what, at about 10:26?

MR. MANDEL: Dorothy, correct.

MS. CLARK: That means that would have been just above 875 at about 10:23?

MR. MANDEL: Sounds reasonable.

MS. CLARK: And if someone was in their home just south of Dorothy looking north on Bundy, he should have been able to see you; isn't that right, walking south on Bundy?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: To your knowledge, sir, are you aware that someone testified that they looked out their window from that location I just pointed to south of Dorothy, looking north on Bundy, and saw