Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(Pages 35843 through 35847, volume 184A, transcribed and sealed under separate cover.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Back on the record in the Simpson matter. Mr. Simpson is again present before the Court with his counsel, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Cochran, Mr. Douglas, Mr. Bailey. The People are represented by Miss Clark and Mr. Darden. The jury is not present. Counsel, is there anything we need to take up before we invite the jurors to rejoin us?

MR. SHAPIRO: We are ready to call our first witness.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Clark, anything for the People?

MS. CLARK: No, your Honor, thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Deputy Magnera, let's have the jurors, please.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, who is the next witness?

MR. SHAPIRO: Mrs. Shirley Baker, your Honor. She is in Court and ready to testify.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you.

(Brief pause.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Let the record reflect we have now been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

THE COURT: And the Defense may call their next witness.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much and good morning, your Honor. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

MR. SHAPIRO: Our next witness is Mrs. Shirley Baker.

THE COURT: All right. Mrs. Baker.

Shirley Baker, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

MS. BAKER: I do.

THE CLERK: Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

MS. BAKER: My name is Mattie Shirley Simpson Baker. M-A-T-T-I-E S-H-I-R-L-E-Y S-I-M-P-S-O-N B-A-K-E-R.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

MR. SHAPIRO: Good morning, Mrs. Baker.

MS. BAKER: Good morning.

MR. SHAPIRO: How are you today?

MS. BAKER: Fine.

MR. SHAPIRO: You are a sister of Mr. O.J. Simpson?

MS. BAKER: Yes, I am his oldest and his big sister.

MR. SHAPIRO: You took care of him while he was growing up?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you--have you been coming to court on a regular basis since this trial began?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you employed also or were you?

MS. BAKER: I was until November of last year.

MR. SHAPIRO: And that was?

MS. BAKER: I'm on leave now.

MR. SHAPIRO: Because of your interest in coming here and supporting your brother?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you come to Los Angeles where do you stay?

MS. BAKER: We stay at O.J.'s house.

MR. SHAPIRO: And when you say "We," who stays there with you?

MS. BAKER: Well, my husband and myself, we are there, my sister Carmelita is there, Jason, Arnelle and Paula, when she is in town she is there. When my mother is here, she is there, and when my children come, we are all there.

MR. SHAPIRO: And are all those people there now?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: I want to direct your attention to the night of June the 13th. Did you get some very unfortunate news?

MS. BAKER: Yes, we did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And what was that news?

MS. BAKER: We found out that Nicole had been murdered.

MR. SHAPIRO: And as a result of that, did you come to Los Angeles?

MS. BAKER: Yes, we did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Who did you come with?

MS. BAKER: My mother and I, we came on the three o'clock flight from San Francisco.

MR. SHAPIRO: And at some time that early evening did you arrive at your brother's house on Rockingham?

MS. BAKER: Yes, we did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where was your brother when you arrived?

MS. BAKER: My brother--the first time we went there, we weren't able to get in, and when we went back we went into the house and my brother was sitting on the couch in the TV room.

MR. SHAPIRO: Why weren't you able to get in the first time?

MS. BAKER: The police would not allow us into the home.

MR. SHAPIRO: And what time was this?

MS. BAKER: 4:30, five o'clock.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where did you go?

MS. BAKER: We left there and we went to the police station to see if we could find out anything and then from there we left and we went to the Brentwood Lodge, which is up the street from O.J.'s house.

MR. SHAPIRO: And then you returned that evening?

MS. BAKER: Yes. We kept calling until we were able to get into the house.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you came into the house did you see your brother?

MS. BAKER: Yes. We walked in and went into the TV room and he was sitting there.

MR. SHAPIRO: And can you describe what his mood and demeanor was like when you first saw him?

MS. BAKER: He was devastated. He was crying, he was sad, he was in disbelief, he was in shock. It was--it was sad, it was just so sad.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you try to comfort him?

MS. BAKER: We tried to, but we were--we were all in shock. Umm, Nicole had been a part of our family for 17 years and we couldn't--we couldn't believe what was going on and we didn't know what was going on because we were only hearing bits and pieces from the newspaper and everything and the TV we had no idea what had happened and we were just all just devastated.

MR. SHAPIRO: Were there other family members there when you were there with your brother?

MS. BAKER: Yes, there were.

MR. SHAPIRO: What other family members were there?

MS. BAKER: My mother was there, Arnelle was there, Jason was there. There was a house full of people there. Some of my children were there, friends.

MR. SHAPIRO: Were there people that were coming and going?

MS. BAKER: Constantly.

MR. SHAPIRO: And they were paying their condolences?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: During this period of time when you were downstairs did you sit near your brother?

MS. BAKER: Yes. We sat on the couch in the TV room. There is a big couch there, and O.J. Was sitting there and my mother was sitting on one side of him and I was sitting on the other side of him and he was--as I say, he was devastated. He was exhausted because he had been on the plane the night before, he had gone to Chicago and then he had returned, and all of this was happening and he was just--it was sad. We were all very, very sad because we couldn't believe what had happened.

MR. SHAPIRO: While you were sitting on the couch did your brother ever leave your presence?

MS. BAKER: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: At some point in time did you and your brother leave the couch?

MS. BAKER: Yes. He was sitting on the couch and he was holding my mother's hand and sometimes he would lean on her shoulder and then sometimes he would lay his head back on the couch and close his eyes and we kept urging him to go upstairs and to try to lay down and to try to rest, because every time he would lean back and he would close his eyes for a minute or two, he would jerk or somebody would say something or he was trying to listen to everything, because there was a lot of commotion going on in there, and we were trying to get him to go upstairs. I asked Robert Kardashian if he would take O.J. Upstairs because we thought he needed to leave from downstairs.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did Mr. Kardashian take him upstairs?

MS. BAKER: Yes. They got up from the couch, they walked down the hallway. He stopped, he paused at the kitchen door, and he said something to someone in the kitchen, and then he and Robert walked up the stairs.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you go up the stairs shortly thereafter?

MS. BAKER: I walked up the stairs directly behind them.

MR. SHAPIRO: And when you got upstairs, was there anyone up there?

MS. BAKER: The only person that was upstairs at that time was my brother-in-law who was in the front bedroom and he was in the bed.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you got upstairs, where did your brother go?

MS. BAKER: My brother and Robert Kardashian walked into the room. I hesitated at Justin's room while they went into the room for O.J. To get into the bed. I stood in the doorway. He walked towards--in the room and I stood back. O.J. And Robert walked in. O.J. Took his pants off or Robert took his pants off, I didn't see who did it. O.J. Laid in the bed and then I walked into the room.

MR. SHAPIRO: During the time you were here watching the trial, did you see a man by the name of Ron Shipp testify?

MS. BAKER: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you hear his testimony?

MS. BAKER: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: During the time that you were with your brother sitting on the couch, did you ever see Ron Shipp talk privately to your brother?

MS. BAKER: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: During the time you went upstairs to the bedroom with your brother did you ever see Ron Shipp come up and talk privately to your brother?

MS. BAKER: Ron Shipp did come up to the bedroom. I was in the bedroom. I was sitting on the couch. The telephone was ringing and O.J. Had just closed his eyes for a moment, and when the telephone rung O.J. Started to shake. And I asked Ron, I said, "Ron, is there any way that you can turn that phone off or unplug the phone?" He walked around the side of the bed and he unplugged the phone. And it seemed to me like I could still hear the phone ringing, so he took the phone and I think he put it in the night stand. He said a few words to me and then he left the room and he never returned to that room again.

MR. SHAPIRO: So you are absolutely certain at no time did your brother speak privately to Ron Shipp in the bedroom that night?

MS. BAKER: I'm absolutely certain, yes.

MS. CLARK: Objection, that is speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where did you spend the night?

MS. BAKER: I spent the night on the couch and laying on the bed in O.J.'s room. My husband and my other children came at about ten o'clock and from my--my husband came upstairs and the two of us stayed in O.J.'s room until the next morning until Robert Kardashian and Howard Weitzman came to the house.

MR. SHAPIRO: So with the exception of the time that your brother went in to get in bed, with Robert Kardashian, you were with your brother the entire time he was in the bedroom?

MS. BAKER: Every moment until that morning.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much.

MS. BAKER: Thank you.

THE COURT: People.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: Good morning, Miss Baker.

MS. BAKER: Good morning.

MS. CLARK: Can you tell was time it was when you went up to the bedroom?

MS. BAKER: It was a little after 9:00.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And then after--at that point, when you went up to the bedroom, when did you leave?

MS. BAKER: Say that again.

MS. CLARK: I'm sorry. How long did you stay in the bedroom?

MS. BAKER: I stayed in the--I was in the bedroom the entire time. A little after 10:00 my husband and my daughter, two of my daughters arrived, and my husband came upstairs. We met on the stairway. I told him that we were sleeping in O.J.'s room that night and he said, "Where are we sleeping?" And I said, "Well, we will sleep on the couch and one of us will sleep on the bed. I want to be close to him, I want to be near him." And he said, "Okay." And that is what we did all night.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

MS. BAKER: And the next morning.

MS. CLARK: Now, when you met him on the stairs, did you take him downstairs, get him something to drink or eat?

MS. BAKER: No. My nieces were there, my sisters were there. I had three daughters that was there. There was a house full of people.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So did you not give your husband anything to eat or drink? I'm talking about regular beverages. I'm not talking about drink drink. I'm talking about something to sustain him, some liquid, some food, anything?

MS. BAKER: We didn't think about eating. Our concern was we wanted to be--we were a family and Nicole had been killed and we wanted to be with O.J., we wanted to be with the children, we wanted to be together. I didn't even think about food.

MS. CLARK: Food was brought in, though, wasn't it?

MS. BAKER: The next day, yes.

MS. CLARK: So you went up to the bedroom at about nine o'clock and at about ten o'clock you met your husband on the stairway; is that right?

MS. BAKER: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: And you spoke to him there?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And then after you spoke to him on the stairway did you go downstairs with him at any point?

MS. BAKER: No, not that night.

MS. CLARK: You stayed with him on the stairway there?

MS. BAKER: I met him on the stairway, we spoke, we embraced. I think he kissed me on the cheek. We turned around, walked back up the stairway and went into O.J.'s room.

MS. CLARK: You heard Ron Shipp testify to the conversation he had with Mr. Simpson about having a dream about killing Nicole. Do you recall that testimony?

MS. BAKER: I heard it on the TV I wasn't in the courtroom. I got sent out of the courtroom when he was testifying.

MS. CLARK: Okay. You watched that testimony on TV, didn't you?

MS. BAKER: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Now, when you spent the--when you got up the next morning on the 14th did you see Mr. Simpson?

MS. BAKER: I saw him--he was in the bed. He never left the bed.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

MS. BAKER: Except to go into his bathroom.

MS. CLARK: Okay. On the day of the 14th did he leave the house at some point?

MS. BAKER: At some point, yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And were you staying at the house?

MS. BAKER: I live at the house.

MS. CLARK: Okay. I'm talking about in that week. I know that is true now. Did you stay there the whole week?

MS. BAKER: I lived there then.

MS. CLARK: All right. Did he come back on the 14th?

MS. BAKER: We were in and out of the house. I don't know the comings and goings. Once Robert Kardashian and Howard Weitzman came, they were dealing with O.J. And at that point I was dealing with my niece and nephew and we were coming and going. I was leaving the house, I was there some time, I wasn't there. I was taking care of my mother and my children.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

MS. BAKER: So at that time I don't know about O.J.'s coming and going on that particular day.

MS. CLARK: All right. And when you say your niece and nephew, you mean Arnelle and Jason, correct?

MS. BAKER: Arnelle and Jason.

MS. CLARK: Did you not see Sydney and Justin there, did you?

MS. BAKER: Sydney and Justin had already left when we got there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. During the time that you were staying there, which was that whole week, you did not see Sydney and Justin at Rockingham; is that correct?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. It is beyond the scope.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BAKER: No.

MS. CLARK: Now, when Mr. Simpson left on the 14th, do you know where he went?

MS. BAKER: I don't even know if he left on the 14th. The days after the initial day everything started running back and forth together.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh.

MS. BAKER: So if he left, no, I wouldn't know where he left because I didn't go with him.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Do you recall--

MS. CLARK: Excuse me a minute.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: Did you see Robert Kardashian at the house, Miss Baker?

MS. BAKER: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Did you see when he--what time was it when you got there on the 13th?

MS. BAKER: It was the second time?

MS. CLARK: No, no. Oh, yeah, that's right, I'm sorry.

MS. BAKER: It was after seven o'clock.

MS. CLARK: First time what time was it when you got there?

MS. BAKER: We caught the three o'clock flight from San Francisco and my daughter picked us up from the airport. It was about 4:30, five o'clock.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Did you see Mr. Kardashian carry away the Louie Vitton garment bag that Mr. Simpson had brought back with him from Chicago?

MS. BAKER: No.

MS. CLARK: You never saw that bag?

MS. BAKER: No.

MS. CLARK: During the evening that you spent in Mr. Simpson's bedroom, did you ever leave the room to change clothes or go to the bathroom or anything?

MS. BAKER: I went to the bath--the front bathroom, Nicole's bathroom.

MS. CLARK: Nicole's? And what about your husband?

MS. BAKER: My husband was on the couch.

MS. CLARK: Did he ever leave the room?

MS. BAKER: When he went to the bathroom he either went to Nicole's bathroom or to O.J.'s bathroom.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And your children were staying downstairs; is that right?

MS. BAKER: Two of them stayed out in one of the guest houses, yes.

MS. CLARK: Do you know which guest house they stayed in?

MS. BAKER: Whichever one was vacant at that time.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Arnelle was--was there, correct?

MS. BAKER: Correct.

MS. CLARK: On the evening of the 13th do you recall where she was at about eight o'clock in the early evening hours?

MS. BAKER: We were all downstairs. Umm--

MS. CLARK: Do you recall--let me ask it this way. I will make it more specific.

MS. BAKER: Okay.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall at some point that she went to her room?

MS. BAKER: No, I don't.

MS. CLARK: Okay. You weren't focusing on her?

MS. BAKER: No, because at that time when we originally got there, when my mother and I got there, we went to the TV room and we were sitting on the couch with O.J.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh.

MS. BAKER: There were a lot of people coming and going. The telephone was ringing and we were sitting there with O.J.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So you were focused there, correct, and you weren't particularly paying attention to the people that were coming and going?

MS. BAKER: No, not really.

MS. CLARK: All right. So if I asked you who was there and who was not there, you are not going to be able to tell me; is that right?

MS. BAKER: Outside of my family--

MS. CLARK: All right.

MS. BAKER: --Robert Kardashian and a few people that I know.

MS. CLARK: How about Mr. Simpson's lawyer, Skip Taft, do you remember him being?

MS. BAKER: I don't remember seeing Skip that night, no.

MS. CLARK: How about Kato Kaelin, do you remember seeing him there?

MS. BAKER: Oh, yes, he was there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And what about Howard Weitzman, do you know if he was there?

MS. BAKER: I saw him the next morning.

MS. CLARK: Okay. You didn't see him there that day?

MS. BAKER: I didn't see him--

MS. CLARK: Or you don't recall?

MS. BAKER: No.

MS. CLARK: He could have been there, but you don't remember? Is that--

MS. BAKER: I didn't see him.

MS. CLARK: All right. May I have a moment?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: Since November have you been staying at Rockingham?

MS. BAKER: Yes. I stayed there all the time. Actually Rockingham is now my home.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And does--does your sister Carmelita Durio stay there also?

MS. BAKER: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And she has been for sometime as well?

MS. BAKER: Yes, she has.

MS. CLARK: Does Arnelle visit there frequently or does she stay there?

MS. BAKER: Arnelle lives there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So the three of you are all living there together at this point?

MS. BAKER: Well, there is more than three of us. There is Arnelle, there is Jason, there is my husband and myself, my sister Carmelita, my mother when she comes down here, and my children when they are in town.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

MS. BAKER: And Paula when she is in town.

MS. CLARK: All right.

MS. BAKER: So every room is--it is full now.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So the whole family. And since this--since the beginning of this trial at least, or since November, since November, you and your sister Carmelita and Arnelle and Jason have been full-time residents there?

MS. BAKER: Mr. Baker, my husband Ben.

MS. CLARK: Yes.

MS. BAKER: Yes, we have.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, ma'am.

THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, your Honor. Just very briefly, please.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you still on occasion return to your home in San Francisco?

MS. BAKER: We come down on Monday and we go back on Friday or Saturday morning and return the next week.

MR. SHAPIRO: Mrs. Baker, on the 14th could you describe to the jury what the atmosphere was like around the house on Rockingham, on Ashford out in front?

MS. CLARK: Objection, beyond the scope.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BAKER: It is something that you would not believe. I will never take my grandchildren to the zoo again because that is exactly how we felt. It was unbelievable. At nighttime it was lit up like we were in Disneyland. It was unbelievable.

MR. SHAPIRO: And was there some concern, especially for the young children, Sydney and Justin, of coming into that atmosphere?

MS. CLARK: Objection, speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. BAKER: Definitely so. We did not want them there in that situation, no. They would have been too traumatized for it.

MR. SHAPIRO: Now, you mentioned that very briefly you went to the bathroom when you were upstairs and you went to what was then Nicole's bathroom?

MS. BAKER: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: That is right at the entrance coming into the bedroom?

MS. BAKER: That's right.

MR. SHAPIRO: Was--how long were you gone during that break?

MS. BAKER: How long was I gone?

MR. SHAPIRO: Approximately?

MS. BAKER: Maybe a minute.

MR. SHAPIRO: And during that period of time when you left was Mr. Shipp there?

MS. BAKER: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you returned was he there?

MS. BAKER: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: When your husband came up and you were with your husband, was Mr. Shipp there?

MS. BAKER: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you absolutely certain that you can tell this jury that at no time, other than regarding unplugging the telephone, was there any private conversation between Mr. Shipp and your brother?

MS. BAKER: I'm absolutely sure.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you.

MS. BAKER: Yes, I am.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you. Nothing further and thank you so much for coming today.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor. Nothing further. Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Baker, thank you very much.

MS. BAKER: Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Next Defense witness. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Yes. Thank you very kindly, your Honor. We next call Mr. Jack McKay who is present in the courtroom, please. Mr. McKay, sir.

THE COURT: Good morning, sir. Would you face the court reporter. I'm sorry, the clerk.

Jack McKay, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

MR. MCKAY: I do.

THE CLERK: Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

MR. MCKAY: Jack McKay, J-A-C-K M-C K-A-Y.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

THE COURT: Look, Mr. McKay, would you just set that cup off to the side there, please. Thank you. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: Good morning, Mr. McKay.

MR. MCKAY: Good morning.

MR. COCHRAN: Mr. McKay, how are you employed sir?

MR. MCKAY: I'm the Chief Financial Officer for the American Psychological Association.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you occupation that position back in the month of June of 1994?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And on that date did you have occasion to see Mr. O.J. Simpson?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, sir, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: That is Mr. Simpson seated to my left here, to my far left?

MR. MCKAY: It is.

MR. COCHRAN: And where did you have occasion to see Mr. Simpson on June 8th, 1994?

MR. MCKAY: We were participating in a corporate golf tournament in Sterling, Virginia.

MR. COCHRAN: Back in Virginia?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you remember the name of the course?

MR. MCKAY: It was Landsdown Conference Center.

MR. COCHRAN: And when you say "We were participating," was the organization of which you are the chief financial officer a participant in this particular tournament?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you were playing there that day?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, I was.

MR. COCHRAN: That was a Wednesday, was it not?

MR. MCKAY: I believe so.

MR. COCHRAN: Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what time on that date, June 8th, did you see Mr. Simpson?

MR. MCKAY: One of my calling cards is being late, so I was naturally late for this golf tournament. Umm, I got there a little before 12:15, I believe, for a 12:30 starting time, and got up to the first tee and Mr. Simpson and two other players were there and we had a picture taking exercise and then we went off at 12:30.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you had what--they had a 12:30 tee time?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And had you ever played golf before with Mr. Simpson?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MR. COCHRAN: And you had occasion then to tee off with him at or about 12:30. And for how long after that did you play golf with Mr. Simpson?

MR. MCKAY: Because we were the last foursome that went off, Mr. Simpson played, I believe, four or five holes with us, in our foursome. Then he left in his own cart and played a hole or two with other foursomes and then came back and played a few more holes with us on the back nine. So I guess collectively I was with him maybe an hour and a half, an hour and 45 minutes.

MR. COCHRAN: And during the course of this tournament, who was one of the sponsors of this tournament, if you know, that provided Mr. Simpson?

MR. MCKAY: You mean the corporation that sponsored the tournament?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes, the corporation?

MR. MCKAY: It was Hertz Rent-a-Car.

MR. COCHRAN: So you mentioned that Mr. Simpson went off in his own cart. Did he have some kind of a golf cart he was using that day?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, he did.

MR. COCHRAN: During the time that you played with Mr. Simpson did you have occasion to have a conversation with him at all?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Answer that yes or no. At any time during the conversation did you ever have occasion to discuss with him the physical condition of his knees?

MR. MCKAY: On one occasion he had a slight limp and I just--

MS. CLARK: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled. He can testify to his observations.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: You saw Mr. Simpson have a limp, did you not?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, when we walked toward the ball.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And when you saw this, did you have an occasion to discuss with him the condition of his knees? You can answer that yes or no.

MR. MCKAY: Yes, briefly.

MR. COCHRAN: And did the two of you then discuss the subject matter of Mr. Simpson's knees and any problems he might be having with those knees?

MS. CLARK: Objection, this is hearsay.

MR. COCHRAN: The subject matter.

THE COURT: Did you discuss that?

MR. COCHRAN: Did you discuss that?

MR. MCKAY: Very briefly.

THE COURT: Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: And how would you characterize Mr. Simpson's demeanor during the time that you had occasion to play golf with him these four or five holes at first and then the time afterwards?

MR. MCKAY: He was very cordial, friendly, very willing to shake hands, sign autographs, have pictures taken. Very much different, I would say, than other celebrities that I have had an occasion to play golf with. He was a regular person that I was very comfortable with and everybody else was.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, you have obviously had occasion to play golf with other so-called celebrities; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, I have.

MR. COCHRAN: Without mentioning any of their names, you found the demeanor and comportment--

MS. CLARK: Objection. This is leading.

MR. COCHRAN: Not leading. I'm going to ask question.

THE COURT: Sounds leading.

MR. COCHRAN: I didn't finish. Let me see if I can change it around so it won't be leading. All right.

MR. COCHRAN: You've played with other celebrities, have you not?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And how did Mr. Simpson's demeanor differ from those other celebrities you played with?

MS. CLARK: Objection, irrelevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: You may answer.

THE COURT: You may answer the question.

MR. MCKAY: I would say that he appeared to be much more friendly than any that I have ever played with before. He was very willing to talk to you about anything. He did not put on any airs. He was just a very friendly person to be around.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You enjoyed your time; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And you mentioned the fact that you had a photograph taken with Mr. Simpson, and was there a foursome, including Simpson, when you all played?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, there was.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you provide me with a photograph that was taken on that date of June 8th, 1994, that includes the participants in your particular foursome?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: Is the photograph a fair and accurate portrayal--

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: Is that a fair and accurate portrayal of the way the four of you appeared on that date, June 8th, 1994?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, it was.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. COCHRAN: May I approach, your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

MR. COCHRAN: I will mark this, your Honor, as Defendant's next exhibit.

THE COURT: 1229.

(Deft's 1229 for id = photograph)

MR. COCHRAN: 1229, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: I will place the "1229" on the upper right rear.

MR. COCHRAN: And I will place this photograph before Mr. McKay and ask Mr. McKay, is that a photograph that you brought to California and provided me with?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, it is.

MR. COCHRAN: And is that photograph a fair and accurate portrayal of the way the four of you looked back on June 8th, 1994?

MR. MCKAY: Exactly.

MR. COCHRAN: And where was that photograph taken?

MR. MCKAY: It was taken on the no. 1 tee at Landsdown Conference Center in Virginia.

MR. COCHRAN: The no. 1 tee is before you teed off to start playing golf; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: That's right.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Let's see who is depicted--perhaps everybody can see it if I put it on the elmo, your Honor.

THE COURT: You may.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: There is a monitor right before you, sir, and I think you will be able to look at the monitor and the jury will be able to see it also in referring to it.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: Now, in looking at this photograph, you have told us this is a fair and accurate portrayal of the foursome just prior to the first tee. The gentleman on the left of the photograph that is you, is it not?

MR. MCKAY: I think so.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. We do recognize Mr. Simpson next to you and then who is the man to Mr. Simpson's left?

MR. MCKAY: He is a director of some kind from the AARP organization, American Association of Retired People.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. He was playing in this particular foursome?

MR. MCKAY: He was one of the other organizations that was invited.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And the man to the representative of AARP's left?

MR. MCKAY: He is a regional vice-president of Hertz, as far as I was told. I don't know the man, but that is how he was introduced.

MR. COCHRAN: That is the first time you had ever played with him also; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So now altogether you spent about how much time with Mr. Simpson some that date, that June 8th date?

MR. MCKAY: I would say an hour and a half to hour and 45 minutes, something like that.

MR. COCHRAN: And during that period of time the demeanor that you have described for us, did it ever change at any time?

MR. MCKAY: Not at all.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did he sign some autographs for you also?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, he did.

MR. COCHRAN: And family members?

MR. MCKAY: He signed an autograph for my daughter, a visor.

MR. COCHRAN: I have nothing further for Mr. McKay at this point, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: All right. You are aware, sir, that the Defendant is a spokesperson for Hertz corporation, correct?

MR. MCKAY: I assume he is. He was there for that purpose.

MS. CLARK: All right. And that he gets paid to enhance the company image, correct?

MR. MCKAY: I don't know that.

MS. CLARK: What would you think a spokesperson would do, sir?

MR. COCHRAN: I will object, your Honor. That is argumentative, the form of the question.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question, please.

MS. CLARK: Do you expect a spokesperson for a company to try and portray a good image on behalf of that company?

MR. MCKAY: If they expect to keep the job I would think they would.

MS. CLARK: Certainly. And Mr. Simpson is a spokesperson for Hertz, correct?

MR. MCKAY: I believe so.

MS. CLARK: You have met other celebrities; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: That's right.

MS. CLARK: And on the occasions that you have met other celebrities have they been spokespeople as well for other corporations?

MR. MCKAY: Most of the time they were.

MS. CLARK: On the occasion that you were with Mr. Simpson on June the 8th, was there press there?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: Were there photographers there?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: There were media people there?

MR. MCKAY: Not to my knowledge there weren't.

MS. CLARK: There were publicity agents there for Hertz?

MR. MCKAY: I don't--I don't know.

MS. CLARK: Who were the photographers there, Mr. McKay?

MR. MCKAY: As far as I know the photographer was hired by Hertz to take pictures to give to the participants as souvenirs from the occasion.

MS. CLARK: And the photographer followed everyone around, did they?

MR. MCKAY: They were on the course at different times.

MS. CLARK: And what does your company have to do with the Hertz corporation?

MR. MCKAY: Our company is one of the companies that provides benefits to our members, special discounts through various car rental companies, hotels and whatnot, so we just sponsor that event through our membership and get special discounts from Hertz, Avis and other companies.

MS. CLARK: And you patronize Hertz, correct?

MR. MCKAY: Do I?

MS. CLARK: Not you personally; your company?

MR. MCKAY: It is a benefit of membership.

MS. CLARK: Right. That means that you use the services of Hertz corporation; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: Our members are supposed to. They have the opportunity to.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And as a customer of Hertz, Hertz corporation naturally would want to be in your good favor, correct?

MR. MCKAY: I would think they wouldn't want to lose the account.

MS. CLARK: And Mr. Simpson is a spokesperson for Hertz; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: He is--was.

MS. CLARK: Now, you spoke to the Defense on June the 14th of 1995; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: (No audible response.)

MS. CLARK: You spoke to a Defense investigator on June 14th, 1995?

MR. MCKAY: I believe that is the right date.

MS. CLARK: Is that the only time you ever spoke to a Defense investigator?

MR. MCKAY: Until I came out here. I believe that was the only time.

MS. CLARK: Prior to that time did you speak to any of the lawyers for Mr. Simpson?

MR. MCKAY: Umm, I don't think so. I think I was called sometime ago by an investigator and then I spoke to Mr. Bailey briefly.

MS. CLARK: And when was that that you spoke to Mr. Bailey?

MR. MCKAY: Umm, I really--I really don't know. Maybe a month or two ago, just seeing if I would testify if asked.

MS. CLARK: Okay. That was before June the 14th, correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Did Mr. Bailey take any notes or tape your statement at the time he spoke to you?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: And after you spoke to Mr. Bailey, who else did you talk to?

MR. MCKAY: An attorney from Mr. Cochran's organization. I think--I can't remember his name.

MS. CLARK: Mr. Douglas?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: Someone else?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And did you speak to him on the phone or in person?

MR. MCKAY: On the phone.

MS. CLARK: How long did you speak to him for?

MR. MCKAY: Probably thirty minutes, I suppose.

MS. CLARK: And did you discuss with him the subject matter of your testimony here in court?

MR. MCKAY: I answered questions.

MS. CLARK: And after that point who else did you talk to?

MR. MCKAY: No one until I got out here.

MS. CLARK: At what point then--you spoke to Mr. Bailey, you spoke to a lawyer from Mr. Cochran's office, and was it after that that you spoke to a Defense investigator on June the 14th?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, assumes a fact not in evidence. If I can talk to counsel, I think she is confused.

THE COURT: Sure. Why don't you confer with Mr. Cochran for a moment.

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: May I have a moment, your Honor?

THE COURT: Certainly.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: You indicated your contact with Mr. Bailey was back about a month or so ago; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: That is the best of my recollection. I have lost track of time. It has been a while, but--

MS. CLARK: Was that the first contact you had with any member of the Defense team in this case?

MR. MCKAY: Let me try to give you the scenario here.

MS. CLARK: Could you answer my question? Was that the first contact you had with any member of the Defense team in this case?

MR. COCHRAN: She cut the witness off.

THE COURT: The answer was nonresponsive.

MS. CLARK: Nonresponsive.

MR. MCKAY: Would you ask the question again.

MS. CLARK: Was that the first contact you had with any member of the Defense team in this case?

MR. MCKAY: Umm, I don't know whether someone is a member of the Defense team.

MS. CLARK: Any witness or lawyer for the Defense in this case, was that your first contact, Mr. Bailey, about a month ago, or was there an earlier contact by someone else who is involved with the Defense case?

MR. MCKAY: I have spoken to someone else other than on this Defense team about this case.

MS. CLARK: Isn't it true that you spoke to a psychologist by the name of Lenore Walker in February of this year?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: A witness scheduled to testify in this case?

MR. MCKAY: I don't know whether she is scheduled to testify, but I talked with her.

MS. CLARK: And you are CFO. What is CFO?

MR. MCKAY: Chief financial officer.

MS. CLARK: That is not a doctor, is it?

MR. MCKAY: No, it is not.

MS. CLARK: It is not a psychiatrist, is it?

MR. MCKAY: No, it is not.

MS. CLARK: As chief financial officer you have to deal with the finances of the company, correct?

MR. MCKAY: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Now, on the occasion of June the 8th, 1994, you shook hands with the Defendant; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: That's right.

MS. CLARK: You got his autograph; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Right.

MS. CLARK: Did you see any cut on his left finger?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: Did you see any cuts on his hands at all?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: You spoke to a lawyer on June the 14th of 1995 at some length; is that correct?

THE COURT: I think the testimony was an investigator.

MS. CLARK: Let me ask you that. Did you speak to somebody on June the 14th, 1995, for about half an hour to an hour?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Do you know if that was a lawyer or an investigator?

MR. COCHRAN: Misstates, your Honor. He said a half hour.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. MCKAY: I believe he was a lawyer.

MS. CLARK: Have you had occasion to review that statement since you have been out here?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: I want to you ask you right now to look at that statement, sir, and tell me where in that statement you indicate that you saw Mr. Simpson walk with a limp on June the 8th, 1994?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form. He didn't say in the statement he did. He said it was a conversation.

THE COURT: Sustained. That is a speaking objection, Mr. Cochran. Be seated. Answer the question.

MR. MCKAY: That is not in the statement.

MS. CLARK: Nowhere in the statement, is it?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: June the 8th is the only time that you ever had any contact with Mr. Simpson; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: That's right.

MS. CLARK: And you indicate in this statement that based on that one contact for that one day in your life that you found him to be absolutely loose, friendly, down-to-earth, affable, correct?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: And how many hours of that day did you spent with him on June the 8th, 1994?

MR. MCKAY: About a hour and a half to an hour and 45 minutes would be my estimate.

MS. CLARK: And before that hour and a half to two hours that you saw him you don't know what he was looking like or how he acted, correct?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: And after the two hours you spent with him you don't know what he looked like, do you?

THE COURT: Kind of a vague question.

MS. CLARK: I'm sorry.

MS. CLARK: You don't know what his mood was, do you?

MR. MCKAY: I know what his mood was until he left at six o'clock to catch a plane.

MS. CLARK: After that point you do not know, do you?

MR. MCKAY: Not after that point, no.

MS. CLARK: You did not see him on June the 9th, 1994, correct?

MR. MCKAY: Correct.

MS. CLARK: The 10th?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: The 11th?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: The 12th?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: He did not discuss his relationship with any of the women in his life with you on June the 8th, 1994, did he?

MR. COCHRAN: Objection, beyond the scope.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: Well, let me ask you this, sir: Do you--you did not see his left hand on June the 12th, did you?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I object to the form of that question. Argumentative.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE COURT: You can answer the question.

MR. MCKAY: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: On June the 12th?

MR. MCKAY: Oh, pardon me. I only saw him on June the 8th.

MS. CLARK: If someone was planning to commit murder, sir, would you expect him to come to you if he wanted to get away with it and grumble about the person he wanted to kill?

MR. COCHRAN: Object, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained, sustained, sustained, sustained.

MS. CLARK: Do you know how someone would act?

THE COURT: Excuse me. Hold on. The jury is to disregard the implication of that question.

MS. CLARK: Do you know how someone--do you think you know how someone is going to act before they commit a crime?

MR. COCHRAN: I object. May we approach the bench?

THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. Move on, counsel.

MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: Mr. McKay, sir, you have flown out here to testify today for this jury; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Where do you live, sir?

MS. CLARK: Objection, irrelevant.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: Where do you live, sir?

MR. MCKAY: Alexandria, Virginia.

MR. COCHRAN: You flew out pursuant to subpoena to testify; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you spoke briefly with Mr. Bailey sometime about a month ago; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Very briefly.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Was that a phone conversation?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, it was.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And then thereafter you spoke to a lawyer from my office in Washington D.C., did you not?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you remember the name my partner, Ralph Lotkin?

MR. MCKAY: Lotkin, that is the one.

MR. COCHRAN: You talked to him for about thirty minutes on the phone; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: You responded to his questions?

MS. CLARK: All leading.

MR. COCHRAN: Restate it.

MR. COCHRAN: How did the conversation go with Mr. Lotkin? Did you tell him stuff or did he ask you questions or what?

MR. MCKAY: He simply asked questions and I answered the questions that he asked.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And that was all that happened; is that right?

MR. MCKAY: That was all.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, with regard to Dr. Lenore Walker, was she in your office sometime during the early part of 1995?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you know what month that was?

MR. MCKAY: I believe it was February.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. February of `95. And is she a member of the organization of which you are the chief financial officer?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, she is.

MR. COCHRAN: And at that time when she was in your office did she have occasion to see one of these pictures that we have here, the pictures of Mr. Simpson and your golfing group?

MR. MCKAY: Yes, she did.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you have a brief conversation at that point?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, with regard to the dates involved, you saw Mr. Simpson only on June 8th; isn't that correct?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

MR. COCHRAN: You didn't see Mr. Simpson on the 9th or the 10th or the 11th, did you?

MR. MCKAY: No, sir.

MR. COCHRAN: Neither did you see him on the 5th, 6th or 7th, did you?

MR. MCKAY: No, sir.

MR. COCHRAN: You came and you told us about the date you saw him on June 8th; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: Objection, leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: And when Mr. Simpson left you on June 8th to go to Dulles airport, how was his mood at that time?

MR. MCKAY: It was the same that it had been the entire day.

MR. COCHRAN: And what was that mood?

MR. MCKAY: It was a very friendly cordial, handshaking, telling jokes, kind of behavior.

MR. COCHRAN: And with regard to other celebrities, you were asked a question about celebrities always trying to be nice. Have you played with celebrities who weren't nice?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you didn't enjoy their presence?

MR. MCKAY: Not particularly.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly. Thank you very much for coming today, too.

MR. MCKAY: Thank you.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: Yes. Can I see the photograph, please?

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: Can you see the Defendant's left hand in this photograph, sir? I'm referring to Defense number--

THE COURT: 1229.

MS. CLARK: Thank you.

MR. MCKAY: A portion of it, yes.

MR. COCHRAN: May we see it up close.

MS. CLARK: Why don't we zoom in.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: Maybe we should take the photograph to him, your Honor. I can see it.

MS. CLARK: There we go.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: Thank you.

MS. CLARK: Do you see the Defendant's left hand?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Do you see any cuts on it?

MR. MCKAY: No.

MS. CLARK: You all posed together for that photograph, did you not?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And that was a Hertz photographer that took the picture; is that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Someone hired by Hertz, I believe.

MS. CLARK: And with respect to the statement that you gave to the attorney, I'm going to direct your attention to page 2 and point out the second paragraph that consists of one line. In that photograph did you indicate, sir, that the Defendant did not complain of any physical limitations on June the 8th, 1994?

MR. MCKAY: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.

MR. COCHRAN: Just two other questions.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: First of all, with regard to this picture, do you see how swollen Mr. Simpson's middle finger looks? Do you see his knuckle out there?

MS. CLARK: Objection, leading.

THE COURT: Sustained. Leading.

MR. COCHRAN: Let me point it out.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you notice anything unusual about that middle finger of Mr. Simpson's there? Can you see that?

MR. MCKAY: I can't--I wouldn't have seen it before so I wouldn't know whether it is normal or not. I mean, that is the first time I had seen that.

MR. COCHRAN: This picture was the way, however--the way it looked back on June 8th?

MR. MCKAY: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. With regard to Mr. Simpson complaining, as I understood your testimony, you noticed Mr. Simpson limping and you asked him a question about that limping; isn't that correct?

MR. MCKAY: Not in this is there testimony. That question was never asked. You asked me that question here today.

MR. COCHRAN: Sure. But on that particular date, on June 8th, you noticed him limping as he was walking toward his ball, right?

MR. MCKAY: Right.

MS. CLARK: Objection, leading.

MR. COCHRAN: That is something you saw with your own eyes; isn't that right?

MS. CLARK: Objection, leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: You then commented or talked to Mr. Simpson about why he was limping?

MS. CLARK: Objection, leading.

THE COURT: This is leading.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. After you saw Mr. Simpson limping toward his ball, what did you do at that point? Did you ask him a question?

MR. MCKAY: We just said--we joked about old football injuries, just that is old football injuries, knee injuries. It was very, very brief, like in a joking way. We really didn't discuss it at all.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Thank you very kindly, sir.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: But in your statement, sir, you explicitly said: "Mr. Simpson did not complain of any physical limitations and did not indicate whether he was taking any medication did not do so in Mr. McKay's presence," correct?

MR. MCKAY: He did not complain.

MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.

MR. COCHRAN: May Mr. McKay be excused, your Honor?

THE COURT: Has the Metro made it down to Alexandria yet?

MR. MCKAY: I hope so.

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. McKay.

MR. MCKAY: Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

THE COURT: All right. Next witness.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much, your Honor. If the Court pleases, we call Mr. Dan Mandel.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Mandel, would you come forward, please.

MR. COCHRAN: No, wrong person.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: No, your Honor. We have lots of witnesses all ready.

THE COURT: I might have to give you an extended lunch hour to recoup from all this.

MR. COCHRAN: I appreciate that, your Honor. I promise to make it up in the afternoon.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Are you Mr. Mandel?

MR. MANDEL: Good morning.

THE COURT: Good morning, sir. Would you stand over here by the podium and face the clerk, please.

Danny Mandel, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

MR. MANDEL: I do.

THE CLERK: Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

MR. MANDEL: Danny Mandel, D-A-N-N-Y M-A-N-D-E-L.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

MR. SHAPIRO: Good morning, Mr. Mandel, and thank you for coming.

MR. MANDEL: Good morning.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you a little nervous?

MR. MANDEL: Definitely.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you ever had the occasion to testify before?

MR. MANDEL: No, I have not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Would you briefly tell the jury what your education and background consists of.

MR. MANDEL: I have a BA from UCLA, I graduated in 1990, and currently I work at Sony Pictures in television finance.

MR. SHAPIRO: And your BA is in what?

THE COURT: Excuse me, counsel. Mr. Mandel, would you just pull the microphone closer to you, please.

MR. MANDEL: (Witness complies.)

THE COURT: All right.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your bachelor of arts degree is in what field?

MR. MANDEL: It is in sociology.

MR. SHAPIRO: And you work at Sony pictures in what capacity?

MR. MANDEL: In finance and accounting.

MR. SHAPIRO: And are you planning on returning to school?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I am.

MR. SHAPIRO: And when and where are you planning to return to school?

MR. MANDEL: I'm going back this fall for an MBA most likely at USC.

MR. SHAPIRO: That is a master's degree?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Business administration?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you been accepted to that school?

MR. MANDEL: I have.

MR. SHAPIRO: I want to draw your attention and ask you to tell the jury if anything unusual happened to you on June the 12th and if there is any reason to recall that date of 1994.

MR. MANDEL: Well, just that I was in this--at Mezzaluna that evening and then happened to walk by Nicole Simpson's house that evening.

MR. SHAPIRO: So you have--you are--obviously you are aware of what has been going on in the trial of Mr. O.J. Simpson?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I am.

MR. SHAPIRO: You are aware that that date has some significance?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I am.

MR. SHAPIRO: And that that restaurant has some significance?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Now, and because of that did it cause you to focus on that date and to remember what took place?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it has.

MR. SHAPIRO: Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury where you were just prior to going to Mezzaluna restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: I picked up--I was on a first date and I picked up Ellen Aaronson in her apartment.

MR. SHAPIRO: And where did Ellen Aaronson live?

MR. MANDEL: She lives on Darlington in Brentwood.

MR. SHAPIRO: Had this date been arranged by a mutual acquaintance?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it had.

MR. SHAPIRO: And who arranged that?

MR. MANDEL: This was a doctor.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you--

MR. MANDEL: We shared the same doctor.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where was Miss Aaronson's apartment?

MR. MANDEL: It is on Darlington.

MR. SHAPIRO: And do you recall where Darlington is in relationship to a location that you--did you at some point become aware of where Nicole Brown Simpson lived?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where in relationship to Nicole's condominium was Miss Aaronson's apartment?

MR. MANDEL: It is approximately one block south and one block east.

MR. SHAPIRO: What time did you arrive at Miss Aaronson's apartment?

MR. MANDEL: At a little past eight o'clock.

MR. SHAPIRO: In the evening?

MR. MANDEL: In the evening.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you leave there at some point in time?

MR. MANDEL: Yeah, shortly thereafter.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where did you go upon leaving the apartment?

MR. MANDEL: We walked to the restaurant.

MR. SHAPIRO: How did you get to Miss Aaronson's apartment?

MR. MANDEL: I drove.

MR. SHAPIRO: And you decided, however, to walk from that apartment to Mezzaluna?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you remember the route you took going to Mezzaluna?

MR. MANDEL: Generally, yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: All right. Would you kindly tell the jury the route you took.

MR. MANDEL: We left her apartment and went east on Darlington, and actually I don't know the--the cross-section, the name of the street right there, I can't be certain, but--but then we crossed over to Gorham and walked east until we got to--we entered the--what would be the back door of the Mezzaluna restaurant.

MR. SHAPIRO: Had you been to the Mezzaluna restaurant before?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I had.

MR. SHAPIRO: And this is the Mezzaluna restaurant in Brentwood?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: The same location that has been mentioned in this case, to your knowledge?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may I mark an exhibit, a map of the area, that might help Mr. Mandel in his testimony? May this be marked Defense 1230?

THE COURT: All right. Map of the area, Defense 1230.

(Deft's 1230 for id = map)

THE COURT: All right. Counsel, can you give that back to Mr. Shapiro so we can proceed.

MR. SHAPIRO: May we put this on the elmo, your Honor, with the Court's permission?

THE COURT: Please.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you.

(Brief pause.)

MR. SHAPIRO: You have a little monitor to your right, if you will kindly look there. Do you see on the map the area that you have just described to the jury?

MR. MANDEL: (No audible response.)

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

THE COURT: It is not very easy to read.

MR. MANDEL: It is not.

MR. SHAPIRO: We are going to get another copy, your Honor.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: Can you see that? Can you see Darlington up there?

MR. MANDEL: Yeah, I do see Darlington.

MR. SHAPIRO: Is that the general area where you picked up Miss Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: On Darlington, correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: And do you know--can you see from the map what street you came up on after you passed Darlington?

MR. MANDEL: Well, while walking to the restaurant you are saying?

MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.

MR. MANDEL: My orientation here is--let's see, Montana, Gorham, Darlington. Can you point out to me where--which is Bundy? I can't tell which is east and west.

MR. SHAPIRO: All right. You know what, let's take the--

MR. MANDEL: I can't read the name of the streets.

MR. SHAPIRO: That is fine. Let's just take the photograph down, your Honor, the map down. You proceeded to go to the Mezzaluna restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: How long did it take you, approximately, to get there?

MR. MANDEL: To walk to the restaurant?

MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.

MR. MANDEL: I would say ten, probably fifteen minutes.

MR. SHAPIRO: And had you made reservations at the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: No, we had not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you have to wait for a period of time?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you recall approximately how quickly you were seated?

MR. MANDEL: We were seated just as we walked in.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you have dinner at the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, we did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you recall what you ate?

MR. MANDEL: I had a pasta.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you recall what your date had?

MR. MANDEL: I would--not specifically. I believe she had a pasta as well.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you have any alcohol to drink?

MR. MANDEL: No, I didn't.

MR. SHAPIRO: What about your date, did she have any alcohol?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you know what time you left the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: I would approximate 10:15 or so.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you ever seen any records of when the check was presented to you?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I have.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you review that record?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And what did that record indicate as to the time you left the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: The time stamp was 8:55.

MS. CLARK: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: Motion to strike, your Honor.

THE COURT: The jury is to disregard it. Foundation, counsel.

MR. SHAPIRO: Yes. We will get a copy of that in a minute.

MR. SHAPIRO: What time did you leave the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: Approximately 10:15.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you refresh your memory in some way to get that time?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And how did you refresh your memory?

MR. MANDEL: Well, by--when I looked at the credit card receipt and the time stamp on it--

MS. CLARK: Objection.

THE COURT: That is what he used.

MS. CLARK: Hearsay.

THE COURT: That is not hearsay.

MR. SHAPIRO: You may complete your answer.

THE COURT: That is what he looked at to refresh his recollection.

MR. SHAPIRO: You looked at a credit card receipt to refresh your memory?

THE COURT: That is the end of the answer.

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you seen that credit card receipt subsequently?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: When have you seen it last?

MR. MANDEL: It has been many months since I last saw it.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where did you see it last?

MR. MANDEL: Probably back in January.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you left the restaurant do you recall which route you took going home? Did you take the same route you took going to the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: No, we didn't.

MR. SHAPIRO: Which route did you take going home?

MR. MANDEL: Again, we left from Mezzaluna's back door, which is on Gorham, and we walked Gorham west onto Bundy and continued Bundy until Darlington.

MR. SHAPIRO: At some point in time did you become aware of the precise location of Nicole Brown Simpson's condominium?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: And have you seen photographs of that?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you been by there?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you recall whether or not you walked by that location on June the 12th in the evening with your date, Miss Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Is there any question that you walked by that area?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you walked by that area did you notice anything unusual?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you hear anything unusual?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you hear any barking dogs?

MR. MANDEL: None.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, we would like to put on the elmo--

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: I don't know if you have been blocking this picture or not.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: I believe we have. Some people are having a little difficulty hearing you. Your Honor, may we request--

THE COURT: Yes. Pull it a little closer.

MR. MANDEL: (Witness complies.)

THE COURT: There we go.

MR. SHAPIRO: Feel free to speak up.

MR. MANDEL: Okay.

THE COURT: All right. No photography of this item.

MR. SHAPIRO: I want you to look at the monitor now and can you describe to the jury whether or not that is a location that you have seen before?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it is.

MR. SHAPIRO: And what location is that?

MR. MANDEL: That is 875 Bundy, the--

MR. SHAPIRO: When you walked by that location on the 12th, did you see any blood in the area that is depicted in the photograph?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you see the shape or silhouette of the body of a person when you walked by?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MR. SHAPIRO: And you have told us you heard no barking dogs?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you have any way of relating to this jury what time you walked by that condominium?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: How can you relate what time it was?

MR. MANDEL: Well, both by knowing the credit card time and having approximation of how long I sat before I left, and then also when I was on Darlington a few houses down from Ellen's apartment I happened to glance at my watch and--

MR. SHAPIRO: What time was it when you glanced at your watch?

MR. MANDEL: It was at the bottom of the hour, approximately 10:30. It could be a minute or two before or after.

MR. SHAPIRO: And how far was that location from 875 south Bundy when you looked at your watch?

MR. MANDEL: In time it is probably about three--three-minute walk, three or four-minute walk.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you walked that since that night?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I have.

MR. SHAPIRO: And were you able to mark the amount of time it took?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And is that how you have come up with this estimate?

MR. MANDEL: Yeah.

MR. SHAPIRO: Was there anything unusual whatsoever, at approximately 10:30 on June the 12th, that you recall when you walked by the condominium of Nicole Brown Simpson?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: May I just have a moment, your Honor?

THE COURT: Mr. Shapiro, which exhibit was that that you used on the elmo?

MR. SHAPIRO: That is People's 42, your Honor, for the record.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. COCHRAN: May I have a second, your Honor?

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: Now, you have discussed the areas of your testimony with the jury with me prior to your testimony; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: With the jury?

MR. SHAPIRO: What you've talked about today, did you discuss that with me?

MR. MANDEL: Correct, yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: That was a couple weeks ago?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you also have the opportunity of talking to anybody from the District Attorney's office?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: With whom did you talk to at the District Attorney's office?

MR. MANDEL: With Marcia Clark and with Bill Hodgman.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you tell them what you have told the jury here?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, we would, with the Court's permission, like to show a diagram of the area. It is on its way, and perhaps we might want to ask the Court to--

THE COURT: I think we already have several diagrams, and if you recollect, part of the crime scene view with the jury was to give them the relationship of the Mezzaluna restaurant and its proximity to Bundy add perhaps Mrs. Robertson can assist us with this.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you. We would appreciate that.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you tell the members of the District Attorney's office about the receipt from the Mezzaluna restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you tell them how you were able to gauge the time?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you see any footprints that looked like bloody paw prints in the area as you were walking on 875 south Bundy?

MR. MANDEL: No, I didn't.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you recall how long you spent with members of the District Attorney's office?

MR. MANDEL: I was in the office probably approximately an hour.

MR. SHAPIRO: And do you recall when you talked to them?

MR. MANDEL: What month?

MR. SHAPIRO: Yes.

MR. MANDEL: Back in I believe it was September.

MR. SHAPIRO: Of 1994?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: May I just have a moment, please?

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: We understand it is downstairs, your Honor.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

THE COURT: All right. What is your ETA for your exhibit?

MR. COCHRAN: Within five minutes.

MR. DOUGLAS: Their board and our board.

THE COURT: All right. Then Mr. Shapiro, how about if we start with the cross-examination. I will allow you to reopen as to the diagram.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: Now, Mr. Mandel, your first statement, actually your first belief was actually that you were at the location of 875 south Bundy at about eleven o'clock, correct?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: Or was that Miss Aaronson's first belief?

MR. MANDEL: I don't know.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall that she spoke to the police before you did?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And it was after she spoke to the police that they contacted you?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And initially when you spoke to the police you believed that you had walked back from the Mezzaluna by a different route than you have explained to us today, correct?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: You don't recall telling me back in September of 1994 that you initially thought you had walked out on Gorham and gone down--and gone down Westgate? Do you recall telling me that, sir, back in September of 1994?

MR. MANDEL: No. I pointed out on the map the direction, but I couldn't recall the street names and I told you I would call you when I got home, which I did.

MS. CLARK: But you initially told me, sir, did you not, that you thought you had taken a different route and you wanted to change that statement? Don't you recall telling me that?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: But if you had walked down Westgate you would never have come anywhere near south Bundy, correct?

MR. MANDEL: I'm not sure where Westgate and south Bundy intersect.

MS. CLARK: We are going to have a chart for you and you can show the jury. If you would have taken that Westgate route you would never have gone onto Bundy at all, correct?

MR. MANDEL: As I said, I don't know where they intersect.

MS. CLARK: All right. The route that you took to Mezzaluna took you down Darlington up and up Westgate; is that right? And actually--let me put it more easily before I get the chart. The route you took to Mezzaluna did not take you on Bundy; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: And that was a very direct path from her apartment to the Mezzaluna; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: Fairly direct, yes.

MS. CLARK: And is it your testimony, sir, at this time, that when you walked down Bundy you walked on the west side of Bundy?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And that would mean that you would have to not only cross Bundy once going from the Mezzaluna, going from the east side of Bundy to west, but that you would have to cross Bundy back again going from west to east to go back to her apartment; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That is correct.

MS. CLARK: And Bundy is a curving street, is it not, sir?

MR. MANDEL: It is.

MS. CLARK: And the intersection of Gorham and Bundy is uncontrolled for Bundy, it is only a stop sign for Gorham; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: That is correct.

MS. CLARK: And it was very dark there that night, wasn't it?

MR. MANDEL: Moderately dark.

MS. CLARK: Moderately dark?

MR. MANDEL: I don't know how you gauge it. It was nighttime.

MS. CLARK: All right. You identified that photograph for us today as 875 south Bundy, didn't you?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Were you noticing all the addresses of the places that you were walking passed that night?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: As you--

MR. MANDEL: No, I didn't.

MS. CLARK: As you walked down the street on Bundy, did you look up each pathway to see what was at the end of each pathway?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MS. CLARK: You were talking with Miss Aaronson; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: That was your first date with her, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: You were not looking to see the details of each house you were passing, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Were you looking to see if there was any blood on any walkway, sir?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: As a matter of fact, you had to cross from the west side to the east side of Bundy; isn't that right, to go back to her apartment?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And you can tell us--can you tell us for sure right now at what point on Bundy you crossed from the west side to the east side?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And how can you do that, sir?

MR. MANDEL: Based on my recollection.

MS. CLARK: Let me ask you something: Was that the first blind date you have ever had?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: You have had others since then; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Probably, yes.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh. Have you ever taken a walk with any of those blind dates, sir?

MR. MANDEL: Probably not.

MS. CLARK: Never took a walk with another blind date?

MR. MANDEL: Not that I recall, no.

MS. CLARK: Ever taken a walk with a woman before Miss Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: How about since?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Can you trace the route of each woman you walked with?

MR. MANDEL: Specifically, yes, if I guess we start talking individually and I recall the date, I could.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Whoop, whoop.

MS. CLARK: I'm sorry.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Miss Clark, let the professionals do that.

MS. CLARK: I know. Thank you, Jonathan. All right. For the record, we have put up People's 26 and do not attempt this at home.

THE COURT: Don't give up your day job.

MS. CLARK: All right. I'm showing you People's 26, sir. Do you see where that yellow dot is on that chart?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I do.

MS. CLARK: And does that yellow dot pretty much accurately describe the location of the Mezzaluna?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it does.

MS. CLARK: Is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And can you tell us where in relation to Dorothy Darlington would be?

MR. MANDEL: This next block.

MS. CLARK: One block south; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Now, can you show us approximately on that chart--actually, you know, what? Let's use the elmo. You can sit right there and look at your monitor. I'm going to show you that chart on the monitor. And Mr. Fairtlough, if you could move that just a little bit up so that we get more of the south area, south area. There you go. Thank you. If you would, sir, look at this chart now. I'm going to ask you direct the arrow--make it red. There you go.--the cross, to the location approximately of ms. Aaronson's apartment?

MR. MANDEL: Bring it down, a little more, onto--onto Darlington which is the block south of Dorothy and a bit closer towards Bundy. I mean still on Darlington but bring it approximately there, (Indicating).

MS. CLARK: There?

MR. MANDEL: Yeah.

MS. CLARK: Would you mark that. Thank you.

MS. CLARK: All right. Now, you stated you got there a little after eight o'clock?

MR. MANDEL: To Mezzaluna?

MS. CLARK: No, to her apartment.

MR. MANDEL: I mean, yes. To her apartment, yes.

MS. CLARK: And how many minutes after eight o'clock did you get there?

MR. MANDEL: I think about five minutes after 8:00.

MS. CLARK: Did you look at your watch?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: That is an estimate; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: It is.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And then you talked to her a little bit in her apartment; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And do you know exactly how many minutes you spoke to her in her apartment?

MR. MANDEL: Not exactly, no.

MS. CLARK: Did you look at your watch when you left?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MS. CLARK: But you left at some point after five minutes, after 8:00 approximately, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: So your estimate is that it is sometime after eight o'clock you left her apartment; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: You don't know exactly when; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: When you walked--I would like for you now to direct the arrow and show the jury what route you took to the Mezzaluna that night when you left Miss Aaronson's apartment.

MR. MANDEL: Okay. I don't recall specifically. All I know is that we took Darlington going east, so that direction, and--

MS. CLARK: Can you create a line, John?

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: Sure.

MS. CLARK: Thanks.

MR. MANDEL: And I just--I'm not certain. I believe that we took a left there to Gorham and then a right towards Mezzaluna.

MS. CLARK: You are not sure?

MR. MANDEL: No, I'm not sure on the way there.

MS. CLARK: You are not sure what route you took on the way there; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: You think you took a left at the street that is the intersection that the arrow is at right now, which would be Westgate?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I do.

MS. CLARK: You are not sure?

MR. MANDEL: Not on my way there, no.

MS. CLARK: It could have been the next street up that you took a left at; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: That is possible.

MS. CLARK: So you are guessing; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it is.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Go ahead and make a left there. Could we show a dotted line? I'm going to make a left with a dotted line at this intersection.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: Stop. There you go.

MS. CLARK: Now, are you sure that you went all the way on Westgate there or could you have made another right at Dorothy and then maybe another left and a right to go up to the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: As I said, going to the restaurant--to the restaurant, I don't recall.

MS. CLARK: You don't recall?

MR. MANDEL: Ellen led us there.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh. So you think you might have gone this way, you are not sure on the way to, correct?

MR. MANDEL: All right.

MS. CLARK: But if you did turn left at Westgate, you would have turned again right--right-hand on Gorham, correct?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: Now, Miss Aaronson's apartment, is it on the north or the south side of Darlington?

MR. MANDEL: On the north.

MS. CLARK: And so if you take that route, you can walk on the same side of the street, crossing only at the intersection of--what is that--Gorham and Westgate in order on get to the Mezzaluna; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: And you never have to cross Bundy at all, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: So you left Miss Aaronson's apartment you estimate at some point after eight o'clock?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And it took you how long to walk to the Mezzaluna taking that direct route?

MR. MANDEL: I would say approximately ten, maybe fifteen minutes.

MS. CLARK: Were you looking at your watch?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: You didn't time that, did you?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: You are just estimating for this jury, aren't you?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I am.

MS. CLARK: And you got to the Mezzaluna, you had dinner, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: How long exactly did you spend having dinner with Miss Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: I can't say exactly.

MS. CLARK: You don't know because you weren't looking at your watch; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: You were on a date?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And after you finished eating you left the restaurant, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Did you look at your watch at the time that you left?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MS. CLARK: You don't know exactly what time you left; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: You said that you paid your bill with a credit card, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And that after you paid you stayed in the restaurant for some period of time?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And you did not look at your watch to see how long you spent in the restaurant after you paid the bill?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: A woman waited on you; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, she did.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall what she looked like?

MR. MANDEL: I recall that she was attractive, darker skin.

MS. CLARK: Ponytail? Her hair was in a ponytail?

MR. MANDEL: I don't recall.

MS. CLARK: Do you know her name?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: You have been watching this trial; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, here and there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Do you recall seeing the people that testified that were working at the Mezzaluna that night?

MR. MANDEL: No, not specifically.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall seeing a waitress by the name of Tia Gavin testify?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: Does that name ring a bell?

MR. MANDEL: No, it doesn't.

MS. CLARK: So you paid the bill and at some point after you paid the bill, you are not sure how long, you and Miss Aaronson left, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And when you left you state that you walked out the back door of the Mezzaluna?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Can you describe the back door of the Mezzaluna that you say you walked out of?

MR. MANDEL: There is a little patio, I believe it goes--there is a little zigzag to go down to the street.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And you could just walk out the door? You didn't have to step over any railing or fence or anything?

MR. MANDEL: Actually I think I did hop over a railing.

MS. CLARK: And why--for what reason did you take the back door?

MR. MANDEL: It is closer toward the direction that we were going.

MS. CLARK: Now, after you left, you went back to the restaurant to look for your keys; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Momentarily after.

MS. CLARK: And when you went back into the restaurant there was no one else there; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: No other patrons.

MS. CLARK: No other customers?

MR. MANDEL: It was very empty. There may have been one other table.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall telling myself and Mr. Hodgman, back in September of 1994, that when you went back to the restaurant to look for your keys you saw no other person there?

MR. MANDEL: That sounds familiar, yes.

MS. CLARK: And who did you speak to about looking for your keys when you went back into the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: Nobody.

MS. CLARK: You just looked?

MR. MANDEL: They were just on my seat. I had then between my legs when I was sitting there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So you went back into the restaurant, retrieved your keys and then went back out again, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Did you look to see how long it took you between the time you left the restaurant, went back in to get your keys and went back out again?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MS. CLARK: So when you actually left the restaurant for the last time you do not know what time it was; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: Miss Aaronson waited outside the restaurant for you when you did that?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And then she and you walked out of the restaurant; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Now, look at the chart, if you will, People's 26.

MR. MANDEL: (Witness complies.)

MS. CLARK: Can you indicate to us what route you took to leave the Mezzaluna?

THE COURT: All right. Miss Clark, before we start on that, I think we need to take a break.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take our mid-morning recess. Please remember all my admonitions to you. Mr. Mandel, you may step down. You are ordered to return in fifteen minutes. All right.

(Recess.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. All right. Deputy Magnera, let's have the jurors, please. Hold on, Mr. Mandel.

(Brief pause.)

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may we approach for a moment?

THE COURT: Certainly.

(A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Back on the record. All parties are again present. The jury has rejoined us. Mr. Mandel, would you resume the witness stand, please. And pull the microphone close up to you, please. And Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.

MS. CLARK: All right. Now, over the break period here you have had a chance to confer with Mr. Shapiro and the members of the Defense team, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you have made an effort to have the receipt from the Mezzaluna sent in here; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: As a matter of fact, after the events of June the 13th, at some point you actually wrote a letter to your credit card company to get them to send you a copy of your receipt?

MR. MANDEL: I telephoned them.

MS. CLARK: And you made that effort to get the receipt because you thought it was important to find out exactly when you had been at the restaurant?

MR. MANDEL: A police detective from the LAPD asked me to do it.

MS. CLARK: Okay. That was after July the 12th; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And July the 12th is when you spoke to the police officer; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That sounds correct.

MS. CLARK: You had never spoken to any police officer before that date; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's right.

MS. CLARK: And you watched this preliminary hearing for this case on television at some point, did you not?

MR. MANDEL: I believe I caught a little bit.

MS. CLARK: And so the first time that you spoke to a police officer on this case was after the preliminary hearing had been completed?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And it was at some point after that that you spoke to the Defense; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: When was the first time you spoke to the Defense?

MR. MANDEL: I don't recall the month. It was many, many months later, perhaps--I don't really recall. Maybe January.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Now, after you spoke to the police officer you wrote or you called in to your credit card company to get a copy of your receipt because you did not remember what time you left the Mezzaluna; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: I had an idea, but when I looked at the credit card time, I knew it couldn't be right, so I called.

MS. CLARK: You say you had an idea you thought it was sometime between 10:00 and 11:00; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: I thought it would be a little bit after 10:00 when I left.

MS. CLARK: You did not know exactly when you had left; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Exactly, no.

MS. CLARK: And you still don't, do you?

MR. MANDEL: Not exactly.

MS. CLARK: And you still don't know exactly when you walked down Bundy; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Not exactly.

MS. CLARK: And you still don't know when it was that you crossed Bundy from the west side to the east side, what time it was?

MR. MANDEL: Not exactly.

MS. CLARK: And you still don't know exactly what time it was when you actually got down to the end of Bundy--excuse me--to the--strike that. Now, before you ever spoke to a police officer in this case, you spoke to Miss Aaronson several times about when you left the Mezzaluna and where you walked; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: I think we spoke once or twice.

MS. CLARK: Now, that blind date, that was the first time you had ever met her on June the 12th; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That is true.

MS. CLARK: That was a set-up by your doctor, mutual doctor?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Has he set you up since?

MR. MANDEL: Attempted.

MS. CLARK: I'm sorry. Now, when you--did you ever go out on a date with Miss Aaronson again after that night?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: So the only occasion you had to speak to her was because of this case; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And that is all you talked about was this case; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Just small talk, how you doing?

MS. CLARK: But the reason you got in touch with her was to talk about what time you left the Mezzaluna and where you walked when you left the Mezzaluna; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Generally, yes.

MS. CLARK: You talked to her at least once, maybe more than that?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Two or three times perhaps?

MR. MANDEL: Two perhaps, yes.

MS. CLARK: That was before you ever spoke to a police officer on June the 12th; isn't that right--excuse me, July 12; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: So July 12th, one month after the walk--the date you had with Miss Aaronson on June the 12th was the first time that you spoke to a police officer, right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And by that time you had spoken to Miss Aaronson two, maybe three times about where you walked and when you walked there?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And after that time that you spoke to the police officer, you spoke to Miss Aaronson again about this case, did you not?

MR. MANDEL: I don't recall specifically.

MS. CLARK: You don't recall? Do you recall telling me in September of 1994 that you spoke to her again before coming into the office to see myself and Mr. Hodgman?

MR. MANDEL: No, I don't recall specifically.

MS. CLARK: You don't recall that?

MR. MANDEL: Not specifically. I don't recall how many times we spoke.

MS. CLARK: You have spoken, though, with her since July 12th, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And you had a date with her since then?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: So the occasion for you to speak to her was about this case and the events that occurred on the night of June the 12th; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And how many times have you spoken to her since July 12th about this case?

THE COURT: I think we have gone over this now three times.

MS. CLARK: No, I'm talking about a different time period, your Honor. That was before July the 12th and now it is after.

THE COURT: Mr. Mandel?

MR. MANDEL: I remember we spoke on the day of the opening argument and then I don't think we spoke again since.

MS. CLARK: You saw her when you came into court today, didn't you?

MR. MANDEL: Well, yeah, since last week.

MS. CLARK: Since the last week?

MR. MANDEL: (Nods head up and down.)

MS. CLARK: Is that yes?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: How many times have you seen her in the last week?

MR. MANDEL: I crossed by her one time earlier last week.

MS. CLARK: In the courthouse?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: Where?

MR. MANDEL: In Mr. Cochran's office.

MS. CLARK: In Mr. Cochran's office?

MR. MANDEL: (Nods head up and down.)

MS. CLARK: Yes?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Did you speak to Mr. Cochran?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: And when was that?

MR. MANDEL: That was a week ago Monday.

MS. CLARK: Was that the only time you spoke with Mr. Cochran?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it was.

MS. CLARK: And for how long did you speak to him?

MR. MANDEL: Just for, I don't know, maybe twenty minutes.

MS. CLARK: And did he take any notes or make any report of your statement?

MR. MANDEL: No, I don't think he took any notes.

MS. CLARK: Did he tape-record your statement, if you know?

MR. MANDEL: I don't believe so.

MS. CLARK: Who else was present when you spoke to him?

MR. MANDEL: Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Douglas, Mr. Bailey.

MS. CLARK: What about ms. Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: And you spoke to him for how long, to all of them for how long?

MR. MANDEL: Perhaps twenty minutes.

MS. CLARK: After you spoke to them did you see--or before you spoke to them did you see Miss Aaronson at the office?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: Where was she?

MR. MANDEL: She was leaving.

MS. CLARK: And did you speak to her briefly before she left?

MR. MANDEL: Just hi, how are you?

MS. CLARK: And did you see her again after that point?

MR. MANDEL: Not until this morning.

MS. CLARK: And you saw her outside here in the court building?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: And did you talk to her?

MR. MANDEL: Again just small talk, hi, how you doing?

MS. CLARK: And you have spoken to Mr. Shapiro this morning before you began your testimony?

MR. MANDEL: Not before I began, no.

MS. CLARK: But at the break during your testimony, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Now, sir, you indicated to us that you, since June the 12th, walked--attempted to walk the route you believe you took back from Mezzaluna to Miss Aaronson's apartment on June the 12th?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. CLARK: And that you timed it or attempted to time it?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: How many times did you do that, sir?

MR. MANDEL: We did that twice.

MS. CLARK: You say "We." Who did you do that with?

MR. MANDEL: The attorney.

MS. CLARK: Which attorney is that?

MR. MANDEL: I did that with Mr. Bailey, perhaps one month ago, and then with Mr. Neufeld last--a week ago Monday.

MS. CLARK: Do either one of them look like Miss Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: No, they don't.

MS. CLARK: And was it at night that you walked with them or during the day?

MR. MANDEL: It was in the evening.

MS. CLARK: What time?

MR. MANDEL: Approximately 10:00 to 10:30.

MS. CLARK: And what did you talk to them about as you were walking?

MR. MANDEL: We were just again small talk. I think we were talking about my going back to school and we were trying to reenact to get an approximate pace.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh. Did it feel the same walking with Mr. Neufeld as it did walking with Miss Aaronson on June the 12th?

MR. MANDEL: We were just walking and talking.

MS. CLARK: Did it feel the same?

THE COURT: Counsel, I don't think we need that.

MS. CLARK: Let me ask you something, sir. Back on June the 12th did you live in that neighborhood?

MR. MANDEL: Back then I did not, no.

MS. CLARK: Did you at any point--had you ever lived in that neighborhood?

MR. MANDEL: Not at that point. I do currently.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Then let me ask you this: Westgate, is that a fairly quiet street, sir?

MR. MANDEL: I really can't make a judgment. Like I said, I live in the area, but I don't live right there in those couple of blocks. I don't really know Westgate specifically.

MS. CLARK: Well, you walked on Westgate that night, correct?

MR. MANDEL: It was quiet that night.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And relatively speaking, would you say Westgate is busier or quieter than Bundy?

MR. MANDEL: If I were going to make a guess I would say that Bundy is probably a busier street.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And the other street, Granville, that is one block up from Westgate as you look at this map--you see where you have the red line this, that would be Westgate, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Crossing Dorothy you are saying?

MS. CLARK: Correct.

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. If you go the next parallel street--

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: --that would cross Dorothy, that would be Granville correct?

MR. MANDEL: I don't know the name of the street.

MS. CLARK: But is that a fairly quiet street compared to Bundy, also?

MR. MANDEL: I believe so.

MS. CLARK: Now, prior to June the 12th, you had never visited 875 south Bundy; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's right.

MS. CLARK: If I asked you to describe any of the houses in that block on Bundy, in the block of 875 south Bundy, would you have been able to do so?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: And as of June the 12th, before you--excuse me. As of June the 13th, before you heard about the murders, could you have described for us the location of 875 south Bundy?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: And you never walked up the walkway of 875 south Bundy; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's right.

MS. CLARK: And when you walked down 875--when you walked down Bundy with Miss Aaronson, did you walk on the outside of the sidewalk or the inside of the sidewalk?

MR. MANDEL: I was on the inside.

MS. CLARK: You were on the inside closest to the walkway?

MR. MANDEL: Closest--yes, closest to the house.

MS. CLARK: As you were walking with her and talking to her, I think you indicated earlier you were not looking up the walkway to each house, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: You were trying to get to know Miss Aaronson; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: We were just making small talk, correct.

MS. CLARK: You were paying attention to her, correct?

MR. MANDEL: This small talk--yeah, I was paying attention to her.

MS. CLARK: Your first date?

MR. MANDEL: (No audible response.)

MS. CLARK: All right. Now, you indicated to us that you weren't sure exactly what route you took to Mezzaluna, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: One route that we have here I would like to be marked People's 493, your Honor.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object that this is speculative.

THE COURT: Yes.

(Peo's 493 for id = diagram)

MS. CLARK: No, that was the witness--

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

MS. CLARK: That is one route you may have taken according to your testimony, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Maybe. I may have taken, yes.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Print that.

MS. CLARK: All right. Now, I'm going to ask you, sir--

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: Start again at the same point on Darlington. Can you put the cross where it should be, Mr. Mandel?

MR. MANDEL: It should be right there on that street.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Can you tell us another route you may have taken?

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object. This is totally speculative. We would stipulate that there are several routes.

THE COURT: Overruled. But this may be cumulative at some point in time.

MS. CLARK: I won't do it ad nauseam, your Honor.

MS. CLARK: Go ahead. Another possible way to the restaurant that you could have taken that night?

MR. MANDEL: I mean, I guess I could have gone down Darlington going east.

MS. CLARK: Okay.

THE COURT: Mr. Mandel, is there any of these possible routes that you feel more strongly the possibility that you took?

MR. MANDEL: I just don't recall specifically how I got there. I believe I went--we went left on Westgate, but whether we took Dorothy down and made another left or whether we continued to Gorham and made the right, I just don't recall that.

MS. CLARK: All right. Wait, wait, wait, stop. You didn't need to necessarily take a left on Westgate, but that is what you believe at this time?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: All right.

THE COURT: Counsel, I don't think we need to draw all the different routes.

MS. CLARK: May we approach?

THE COURT: No.

MS. CLARK: Just this one then? One?

THE COURT: The jury knows it is a possible route. He doesn't remember. The jury can figure out the different permutations on how to get from point a to point B.

MS. CLARK: All right.

MS. CLARK: Let me ask you this, Mr. Mandel: In order to get back to the Darlington location from Mezzaluna, you could have gone down Gorham and made a left at Granville, correct?

MR. MANDEL: That is a possible way.

MS. CLARK: Stop. Back up.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, I'm going to object. This is speculative.

MS. CLARK: Made a left here and gone down to Darlington--

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. CLARK: And made a right and gone all the way down to Miss Aaronson's apartment that way, correct?

MR. MANDEL: That would be one way of going there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And then another way would have been to go down Gorham and make a left at Westgate; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that would be yet another way.

MS. CLARK: Now, if you had taken either one of those routes and gone--if you had taken either one of those routes, you never would have gone onto Bundy at all, would you?

MR. MANDEL: That's true.

MS. CLARK: But instead it is your testimony that you went all the way down Gorham?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And then you actually crossed--can we do this--great, thanks. I'm going to ask you to direct the arrow and tell the jury what route you took.

MR. MANDEL: We went down Gorham towards Bundy, it is a rather large intersection at Bundy and Gorham, and we came around there to the left.

MS. CLARK: Now, you crossed Bundy; is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it is.

MS. CLARK: And you went to the opposite side of Bundy; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's right.

MS. CLARK: And you went down Bundy?

MR. MANDEL: Until just before the intersection of Darlington and Bundy.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Now, wait a minute. At this point you are still on the--you are going to have to back up. You are still on the west side of the street?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: So you actually had to cross Bundy, correct, to stay on the west side?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's correct.

MS. CLARK: And then you crossed Dorothy and you were still on the west side; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: That is your testimony?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's right.

MS. CLARK: You are sure about that?

MR. MANDEL: I'm positive.

MS. CLARK: And you continued to the west side of Bundy until almost--stop--tell it where to stop. I'm telling him to stop.

MR. MANDEL: Yes. Until just before the intersection of Darlington and Bundy and then we crossed--I think there is a driveway right there and we just diagonally went across the street onto Darlington onto the north side of Darlington.

MS. CLARK: So you went diagonally across the street and you had to cross back to the east side, correct?

MR. MANDEL: The east side of Bundy, correct.

MS. CLARK: So you didn't just stay on the east side of Bundy to begin with, you actually crossed over to the west side of Bundy which made you then have to cross back on the east side again at the intersection of Bundy and Darlington?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, argumentative.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. CLARK: Correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct. We were always on the west side of Bundy.

MS. CLARK: As you walked you were talking to Miss Aaronson?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: It was fairly dark?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: You were not trying to look and see if there was blood on the walkway or blood on the sidewalk, correct?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: And you got--when you got to the location--at some point you looked at your watch; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's right.

MS. CLARK: And where was it that you looked at your watch?

MR. MANDEL: It was at about the midpoint between that intersection of Bundy and Darlington and where Ellen's apartment is. There is a driveway--there is like an alleyway.

MS. CLARK: And can you show--can you direct the arrow to that point?

MR. MANDEL: Yeah. If you go on--well, it is right between the pink line and the first parking of Ellen's apartment, approximately there, (Indicating).

THE COURT: Can you change the orientation of the arrow? I think that would be more helpful.

MS. CLARK: Is that correct?

MR. MANDEL: Well, I mean a little closer towards the "X." Yeah, approximately there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. You are not sure exactly where you were when you looked at your watch; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: It was near that alley. I just can't tell exactly on this where that was.

MS. CLARK: And when you looked at your watch you thought it was about 10:30?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: You are not sure actually, somewhere around 10:30, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And at that point you made an estimate of how long it had been since you passed by the location of 875 south Bundy?

MR. MANDEL: I didn't do that that evening, but--

MS. CLARK: You have done that since then?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I have.

MS. CLARK: When was the first time you did that?

MR. MANDEL: I suppose I began thinking about it, you know, back the week--that week in June.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So it was, what, a couple days after it happened?

MR. MANDEL: I don't know. Perhaps in the--yeah, a couple days after.

MS. CLARK: And all you could do was estimate because you were not looking at your watch when you crossed--when you say you walked down across 875 south Bundy, correct?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. MANDEL: I did not look at my watch when I was at 875, no.

MS. CLARK: You didn't look at your watch at any point when you were walking down Bundy, did you?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: You didn't look at your watch when you left the restaurant, did you?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MS. CLARK: And the only time you remember looking at your watch at this point was when you got down to Darlington; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: When you say now it was about 10:30, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you then walked Miss Aaronson home; is that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's right.

MS. CLARK: How long did you stay at her apartment?

MR. MANDEL: I stayed until probably eleven o'clock, approximately eleven o'clock.

MS. CLARK: Did you hear any dogs barking at any point that night?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MS. CLARK: And when you left her apartment did you drive?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: And where did you drive?

MR. MANDEL: I headed east on Darlington.

MS. CLARK: And did you hear any dogs barking at that time?

MR. MANDEL: No, I did not.

MS. CLARK: You didn't live in the neighborhood, correct?

MR. MANDEL: No, I didn't.

MS. CLARK: So you never heard any dogs barking at any time that night, did you?

MR. MANDEL: Nothing that I can recollect, no.

MS. CLARK: You have no recollection of any dogs barking?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: May I have a moment?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: May I mark this printout, your Honor, first of all, as People's--should I give it its own number or 493-A?

THE COURT: No, 494.

MS. CLARK: 494.

(Peo's 494 for id = computer printout)

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: We are done. Thank you. Nothing further.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you very much, your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

MR. SHAPIRO: Mr. Mandel, the first person in an official capacity that you talked to about this case was a member of the Los Angeles Police Department?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that's true.

MR. SHAPIRO: And when you talked to that person did you tell them that you went by the location of Nicole Brown Simpson's condominium on June the 12th?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you tell them it was approximately 10:30?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you tell them that you did not hear any dog bark?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you tell them that you did not hear any dog wail?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you tell them that you did not see any dog?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: And that person asked you to get a copy of your receipt for dinner?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you do that?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may I mark as Defense next a--

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you call the credit card company?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did they send you back correspondence with a copy of your credit card receipt?

MR. MANDEL: Yeah, that is what they did.

MR. SHAPIRO: May that be--may this be marked--

THE COURT: 1241.

MR. SHAPIRO: 1241.

THE COURT: Excuse me. 1231.

MR. SHAPIRO: 1231.

(Deft's 1231 for id = document)

MR. SHAPIRO: I have given a copy to Miss Clark. And 1232.

(Deft's 1232 for id = document)

MR. SHAPIRO: And do you have a copy of that receipt at your office?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I do.

MR. SHAPIRO: And at the break did we have a conversation?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, we did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you approach me?

MR. MANDEL: No, you approached me.

MR. SHAPIRO: Okay. And what was the conversation about?

MR. MANDEL: If I could retrieve that receipt.

MR. SHAPIRO: And did you?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: All right. Let me--may I approach, your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

MR. SHAPIRO: We will substitute later.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you have the original of that receipt now?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I do. I have it in my office.

MR. SHAPIRO: Can you have that forwarded here and we can exchange that?

MR. MANDEL: Sure.

MR. SHAPIRO: Is this a copy of the letter, no. 1231, that came back with that receipt?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, it is.

MR. SHAPIRO: And this is a copy of the receipt there?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Is there a date on that receipt?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, there is.

MR. SHAPIRO: What is the date?

MR. MANDEL: June 12, 1994.

MR. SHAPIRO: And is there a name of a restaurant on that receipt?

MR. MANDEL: It is the Mezzaluna cafe.

MR. SHAPIRO: And is there an amount on that receipt?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, there is.

MR. SHAPIRO: What is the amount?

MR. MANDEL: 47.48.

MR. SHAPIRO: I know it is a fax copy, but can you decipher what the time is on that receipt?

MR. MANDEL: The time is printed 8:55.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you saw that the first time, did you think that was an error?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: What did do you after seeing that?

MR. MANDEL: I called the restaurant.

MR. SHAPIRO: And as a result of that did you determine that it was an error?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And that the time clock was an hour off?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Objection, that calls for hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: Motion to strike.

THE COURT: The answer is stricken. However--

MR. SHAPIRO: There is testimony.

THE COURT: --the record from the Mezzaluna witnesses is already in existence.

MR. SHAPIRO: The People established that.

THE COURT: Proceed.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you know O.J. Simpson?

MR. MANDEL: No, I don't.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you ever met him?

MR. MANDEL: No, I haven't.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do you have any interest in the outcome of this case?

MR. MANDEL: No, I don't.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you here to testify for any particular side?

MR. MANDEL: No, I'm not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you here to testify for any particular point of view?

MR. MANDEL: No, I'm not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Why are you here?

MR. MANDEL: Because I was in that area that evening and I felt it might be relevant.

MR. SHAPIRO: And you were subpoenaed to come to court by the Defense?

MR. MANDEL: And I was subpoenaed, correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: Miss Clark asked you about other dates. I mean, has there ever been another date you have been somewhere something this horrendous happened?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Would it be fair to say that is why this event is fresh in your mind?

MS. CLARK: Well, objection. That is leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. SHAPIRO: You told Miss Clark that you weren't sure how you got to Mezzaluna?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: From Miss Aaronson's apartment. Did she lead the way?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, she did.

MR. SHAPIRO: However, coming back, how sure are you that you passed the condominium where Nicole Brown Simpson lived?

MR. MANDEL: I'm positive.

MR. SHAPIRO: No question about it whatever?

MR. MANDEL: No question.

MR. SHAPIRO: How certain are you that you passed that area shortly in the area of 10:30 P.M.?

MR. MANDEL: I'm certain.

MR. SHAPIRO: How certain are you that there was not a dog barking?

MR. MANDEL: I have no recollection of one, so I'm certain.

MR. SHAPIRO: How certain are you that there was not a dog wailing?

MR. MANDEL: I'm certain.

MR. SHAPIRO: How certain that there was not a dog in the area?

MR. MANDEL: I'm certain.

MR. SHAPIRO: Is there any reason why you would come and in any way shade the truth to this jury?

MR. MANDEL: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: May I just have a moment, your Honor?

THE COURT: Certainly.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. SHAPIRO: I have nothing further. Thank you very much.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: Mr. Mandel, you are certain there was no dog in the area?

MR. MANDEL: I'm certain that I don't have a recollection of a dog wailing.

MS. CLARK: You are certain you not did not see a dog in the area; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: You are certain you do not recall hearing a dog in the area; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: If other witnesses did hear a dog in the area, does that mean they are all wrong, Mr. Mandel?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for speculation, argumentative.

THE COURT: Argumentative.

MS. CLARK: You are certain of what you recall; isn't that right, sir?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: You cannot sit here and tell this jury that there was no dog in the neighborhood at that time, can you?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, argumentative.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. SHAPIRO: That it wasn't his testimony.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. MANDEL: Just that I didn't see one.

MS. CLARK: That is all you can say; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: When you were on a blind date walking down a dark street with Miss Aaronson on the night of June the 12th, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you said that you were walking on the west side of Bundy. You are sure of that?

MR. MANDEL: I'm positive.

MS. CLARK: Positive of that?

MR. MANDEL: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Now, Miss Aaronson had to lead you to the Mezzaluna, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Because you didn't know how to get there?

MR. MANDEL: I knew where it was. She lived in the area so we--we were walking together. It wasn't--she was basically leading the way.

MS. CLARK: She lived in the area; you did not, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And so she led the way to the Mezzaluna, correct?

MR. MANDEL: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And she led the way back also; isn't that right?

MR. MANDEL: Yes, that is right.

MS. CLARK: And when you--if--you were walking westbound on Bundy, crossing the area of 875 south Bundy, passed that location, at about 10:25, between 10:20, 10:25, correct?

THE COURT: Excuse me, counsel. Do you want to rephrase that.

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, that misstates the evidence.

THE COURT: That is what I was about to point out.

MS. CLARK: Let me back up for a minute, sir.

THE COURT: Rephrase the question.

MS. CLARK: You got your receipt and it said on the receipt that you paid your bill at the Mezzaluna at 8:50--8:55? Is that your testimony?

MR. MANDEL: (No audible response.)

MS. CLARK: Is that right?

MR. MANDEL: It is stamped 8:55, but I believe it was 9:55.

MS. CLARK: And you are basing your estimate of when you left the restaurant on the information you received that that time clock was an hour off?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: Because you did not look at your watch when you left?

MR. MANDEL: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: And if the clock is actually an hour and ten minutes off, you wouldn't know--your time estimate about when you walked past about 875 south Bundy would also be incorrect, wouldn't it?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, your Honor, assumes a fact not in evidence.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. MANDEL: My best time reference is for when I looked at my watch on Darlington.

MS. CLARK: And you do not know whether that clock--the time stamp on your receipt is exactly an hour off or 50 minutes off or an hour and ten minutes off, do you?

MR. MANDEL: I couldn't be certain, no.

MS. CLARK: Now, tell us, is it your testimony, sir, that you walked past 875 south Bundy sometime between 10:20 and 10:30?

MR. MANDEL: I would say approximately 10:25.

MS. CLARK: Or between 10:25 and 10:30?

MR. MANDEL: I would say it is probably closer to 10:25 than 10:30.

MS. CLARK: So if you were walking down Bundy, passing 875 south Bundy at about 10:25, that means that you would have gone--you would have crossed Dorothy at what, at about 10:26?

MR. MANDEL: Dorothy, correct.

MS. CLARK: That means that would have been just above 875 at about 10:23?

MR. MANDEL: Sounds reasonable.

MS. CLARK: And if someone was in their home just south of Dorothy looking north on Bundy, he should have been able to see you; isn't that right, walking south on Bundy?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: To your knowledge, sir, are you aware that someone testified that they looked out their window from that location I just pointed to south of Dorothy, looking north on Bundy, and saw no one walking down south Bundy at approximately 10:25?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, irrelevant, improper.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. MANDEL: I hadn't heard that, no.

MS. CLARK: But of course if you were walking down Westgate they wouldn't have seen you on Bundy, would they?

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection.

MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.

MR. SHAPIRO: May this witness be excused?

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Mandel, thank you very much. And if you would forward to the Court the original that you received.

MR. MANDEL: Sure.

THE COURT: All right. And I will ask Mr. Cochran's office to expedite that.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor. We will be glad to do that.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Cochran, why don't you collect your exhibits here, please.

MR. COCHRAN: Yes, your Honor, certainly. May I have a minute to make sure we get this done today, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: The next witness will be Miss Ellen Aaronson, your Honor. She is in the hallway.

THE COURT: All right.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Good morning, Miss Aaronson. We are just waiting for the clerk.

MS. AARONSON: Hello.

(Brief pause.)

Ellen Aaronson, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE COURT: All right. Mrs. Robertson.

THE CLERK: Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

MS. AARONSON: I do.

THE CLERK: Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

MS. AARONSON: Ellen Aaronson.

THE COURT: All right. Could you spell that for us, please.

MS. AARONSON: E-L-L-E-N A-A-R-O-N-S-O-N.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Aaronson, would you just sit back, please, and then pull the microphone toward you.

MS. AARONSON: (Witness complies.)

THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: Good morning, Miss Aaronson.

MS. AARONSON: Good morning.

MR. COCHRAN: Miss Aaronson, what is your occupation?

MS. AARONSON: I work as a production executive for a company. We produce children's television shows based on toys that we make.

MR. COCHRAN: What kind of toys does that company make?

MS. AARONSON: We make the toys for the Power Rangers, for the TIC, Megaman. They are not going to forgive me for this. A number of different toy lines that we are starting based on a lot of Japanese television shows that come to the United States.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, I would like, ma'am, to ask you whether or not you are acquainted with a gentleman by the name of Mr. Danny Mandel?

MS. AARONSON: We had a date once.

MR. COCHRAN: Was he the man who just left? Did you still recognize him as he went out?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: That was the gentleman you had a date with once?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: As I understand it, you and Mr. Mandel have the same doctor; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And this doctor arranged the date at some time back in June of 1994?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And the date of that--the date of that date was June 12, 1994?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And back at that time where did you live, ma'am?

MS. AARONSON: Excuse me?

MR. COCHRAN: Where did you live on June 12th of 1994?

MS. AARONSON: Same address where I live now which is 119--

MR. COCHRAN: Don't have to give--I don't think you should give your address.

MS. AARONSON: Good.

MR. COCHRAN: Tell us what street you lived on?

MS. AARONSON: Darlington.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. You still live the same place now?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did--tell us how this date took place? Did Mr. Mandel come to your house?

MS. AARONSON: He picked me up.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You told us that you lived at this location. Did anyone else live there with you?

MS. AARONSON: I have two roommates.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. The same roommates now or at that time?

MS. AARONSON: No, I have different roommates now.

MR. COCHRAN: You had two roommates at that time?

MS. AARONSON: I had two different roommates at that time.

MR. COCHRAN: What were their names, if you recall?

MS. AARONSON: Tell you their names?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes.

MS. AARONSON: Jennifer Yow and Jean Novack.

THE COURT: Can you spell those for the record us, please.

MS. AARONSON: The last name Yow, Y-O-W, and Novack, N-O-V-A-C-K.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Those are your roommates back on June 12th?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: At the Darlington residence?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: On this particular date can you tell the Court and jury what time Mr. Mandel arrived at your location, your house?

MS. AARONSON: He arrived at my house a little after eight o'clock P.M.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did he come in at that point?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: He didn't come inside my apartment.

MR. COCHRAN: Tell us what happened once he got there a little after eight o'clock on June 12th, 1994.

MS. AARONSON: He rang the bell. I really don't recall if he walked into the apartment. We met, we left my gate. We walked towards his car. We went into his car. He asked me what I wanted to have for dinner, if I had a place I wanted to go to. I said, "Why don't we go to Mezzaluna," and because it is really walking distance, we decided to walk, so we left his car and then proceeded to walk to Mezzaluna.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you got out of the car and then you proceeded to walk to a restaurant called Mezzaluna?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, we now have our board--and oh, it might be easier, I suppose, to use this same board for continuity. I think we will use this board.

THE COURT: All right. Proceed.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: If I may approach, if the Court allows me to, just briefly, I would like for you to show the jury generally where your apartment is and so we are acclimated--and if you need to step down, you can. Do you see Dorothy there?

MS. AARONSON: Yes. Darlington is this street, (Indicating).

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: I live between Bundy and Westgate about five--a few houses in, so right around there, (Indicating).

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Where is Westgate?

MS. AARONSON: Right there, (Indicating).

MR. COCHRAN: This is Bundy here?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: So you lived between Bundy and Westgate on Darlington a few houses in from Bundy; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So we have a general idea.

MS. AARONSON: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. And I presume then that after you got out of Mr. Mandel's car you decided to go someplace at that point; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And where did you go and did you know how to get there?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I knew how to get there.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you kind of lead the way?

MS. AARONSON: Pretty much so.

MR. COCHRAN: Can you tell this Court and jury what route you took, and if you need to familiarize yourself with that particular map, give us an idea of which way you went to Mezzaluna restaurant.

MS. AARONSON: You want me to point it out again?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes. Can do you that for us?

MS. AARONSON: Yeah. Danny was parked on the other side of the street from my apartment. We left, we walked down the street--excuse me--down Darlington, I apologize. We crossed over Westgate.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. First did you come to--is Westgate there?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: You crossed over Westgate?

MS. AARONSON: We crossed Westgate to Granville.

MR. COCHRAN: A street called Granville?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that spelled g-r-a-n-v-I-l-l-e?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. When you got to Granville what happened?

MS. AARONSON: Heading north.

MR. COCHRAN: You turned left on Granville?

MS. AARONSON: Turned left on Granville.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Where did you go?

MS. AARONSON: Went a few blocks up to right where Gorham basically is at that stage. Bundy turns into Gorham so that is Gorham at this stage.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: So we crossed the street.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And you got to the restaurant?

MS. AARONSON: And we are really on the side of the restaurant at that stage.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay.

MS. AARONSON: We--

MR. COCHRAN: That is generally the route that you took?

MS. AARONSON: Yeah. We then just walked around it to go to the front of the restaurant.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Trace that one more time for us so everybody is clear how you went.

MS. AARONSON: On Darlington. We walk down Darlington passed Westgate, got to Granville and made a left on Granville, went up to Gorham and at Gorham we crossed the street to the side of the restaurant, walked down and then walked around to the entrance of the--entrance of the restaurant.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So that we are clear, the kind of moon-shaped circle here, that is supposedly Mezzaluna?

MS. AARONSON: Right, right.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you know about what time it was that you arrived at Mezzaluna?

MS. AARONSON: We probably arrived there at around 8:30.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And this was a blind date, your first date; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. And so once you arrived there did the two of you have dinner?

MS. AARONSON: We ordered--we sat down.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: We didn't have dinner immediately.

MR. COCHRAN: You sat down like a regular date, right?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: We will skip over the first parts.

MS. AARONSON: I would appreciate that.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And then at some point you ate, did you not?

MS. AARONSON: Yes. It took a while. Service wasn't very fast that evening.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. I'm sure they will be glad to hear.

MS. AARONSON: Sorry.

MR. COCHRAN: You then ordered dinner; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: We ordered dinner.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you remember what you had that night, ma'am?

MS. AARONSON: I recall we both had pasta.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And you had your pasta. Did you have anything of an alcoholic nature to drink that night?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And so you had the pasta and then the date continued; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, there came a time when I presume you finished your meal; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And at some point did somebody call for the check that evening?

MS. AARONSON: No. We never asked for the check. The waitress asked us if we would close out.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. "Close out" means to settle up with her?

MS. AARONSON: To settle up with her. Her shift was ending.

MR. COCHRAN: That was a lady?

MS. AARONSON: It was a lady.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you know her name?

MS. AARONSON: I don't know her name at all, no, I don't recall.

MR. COCHRAN: You had been to that restaurant before?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Had you had that waitress--particular waitress before, if you recall?

MS. AARONSON: I don't recall.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. After she asked you to settle up, what happened then?

MS. AARONSON: Danny paid immediately. The bill came back to us pretty quickly afterwards, a few minutes later.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And so when you said he paid, he paid by credit card?

MS. AARONSON: By credit card.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So there was a credit card record of the amount of the purchase and the tip and that sort of thing; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: After you settled up with this particular waitress, did you leave the restaurant immediately at that point?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you know, do you have an estimate for this Court and jury of about what time it was that you settled up the check at Mezzaluna that evening?

MS. AARONSON: After we got the check we sat there and talked for about ten, fifteen minutes and then left.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you talked for about ten or fifteen minutes after you got the check; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: After we got the bill back to us.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Do you have an idea of about what time you got it back? What time was it, approximately?

MS. AARONSON: Around ten o'clock at that point.

MS. CLARK: Object, leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Counsel is correct.

MR. COCHRAN: What time was it that you got the bill back?

MS. AARONSON: I can only estimate.

MR. COCHRAN: Your best estimate, yes.

MS. AARONSON: I looked at my watch when she first came and asked me--asked the two of us to pay, which was ten to.

MR. COCHRAN: Ten to?

MS. AARONSON: Ten to 10:00.

MR. COCHRAN: Ten to 10:00?

MS. AARONSON: And--

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And the bill came very shortly afterwards, about five, ten minutes later, not even ten minutes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And if I were to show you a copy of the receipt which indicates that it was--it is now an exhibit, your Honor.

MS. CLARK: Objection. No foundation, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained. She did see the bill.

MR. COCHRAN: I will lay the foundation, yes.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you have occasion to see the bill that night or have you seen it since that time?

MS. AARONSON: I haven't seen it since. I only saw the bill when it came.

MR. COCHRAN: You saw it that night?

MS. AARONSON: When it came to the table. I didn't study the bill.

MR. COCHRAN: I just want to approach and ask you whether or not--

MS. CLARK: Objection, your Honor. That is not his bill, that is his credit card receipt.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: You saw--what you saw, I presume, was the credit card bill imprint; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: The credit card receipt I saw returned.

MR. COCHRAN: Yes. I thought that is what you meant.

MS. AARONSON: I'm sorry.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. That is all right. Can you look at this? This is a faxed copy received at the Court. This looks similar to the copy of what you saw that particular evening, ma'am, that Mr.--

MS. AARONSON: It looks like a receipt that they--that Mezzaluna would give.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And with regard to the bill that particular evening, did Mr. Mandel pay it?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And he paid it by credit card?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, after he paid this particular bill, you described for the Court and jury the fact that you continued to talk for ten to fifteen minutes after that; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you stay at the same table?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And at some time after the ten or fifteen-minute period of time did you have occasion to leave the Mezzaluna restaurant?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: After you finished talking?

MS. AARONSON: Right after we sat and talked for about ten to fifteen minutes we left.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. The bill had been paid now and now the date--this part of the date was going to end, right?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And do you recall whether or not there were other people inside that restaurant at that time?

MS. AARONSON: I recall that the restaurant was full.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: It was very crowded.

MR. COCHRAN: It was crowded that evening?

MS. AARONSON: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: When you got ready to leave do you remember whether it was full still, your best recollection?

MS. AARONSON: My best recollection it was not as full as when we arrived.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, at any rate, how did you leave the restaurant? Which door did you go out of, if you recall, when you left the restaurant?

MS. AARONSON: I recall that we left on the exit door that was by our table.

MR. COCHRAN: Yes.

MS. AARONSON: Which was a side door and we climbed over the fence on the side of the restaurant.

MR. COCHRAN: That is how you got out?

MS. AARONSON: Right. It is a low fence.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. You climbed out and that is how you left after you paid the bill; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you know about what time it was at that time, ma'am?

MS. AARONSON: I only know if I add up my time.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: I did not look at my watch.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You didn't look at your watch at that time?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: You do know what time you asked for the check; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And then how much time elapsed between the time that you asked for the check and the waitress brought the check back to you?

MS. AARONSON: I have to sort of change--

MS. CLARK: Well, misstates the testimony.

MS. AARONSON: I didn't ask for the check.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: Strike that. Let me restate it at any rate.

MR. COCHRAN: How much time elapsed from the time that waitress asked you to close out?

MS. AARONSON: Until we got the bill?

MR. COCHRAN: Until the time you got the bill?

MS. AARONSON: About from the time she came up to us Danny handed her the credit card and she came back, I'm approximating here, five to eight minutes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: At the most.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So then you got it and he then signed it pretty quickly; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: He signed it.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. And then was it then ten or fifteen minutes after that?

MS. AARONSON: It was then ten or fifteen minutes after.

THE COURT: Excuse me, counsel. Miss Aaronson, would you please allow Mr. Cochran and Miss Clark to finish asking questions of you before you start to answer. The court reporter can only write down one person at a time.

MS. AARONSON: Okay.

THE COURT: And if you both talk at the same time it makes her job very difficult.

MS. AARONSON: Okay.

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So ten or fifteen minutes after you had gotten the check you then left this restaurant, right?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Did you leave walking--

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: --I presume? All right. Now, I want you to show the Court and jury again which way you took to go back to your residence and I would like for you to use the pointer, if you can, and show us which way you took.

MS. AARONSON: Okay. From Mezzaluna we walked down Gorham, we passed Westgate, and Gorham then turns into Bundy and we turned on Bundy. This whole time we were on the north side of Gorham. We crossed over Bundy.

MR. COCHRAN: Let me stop you there as you took that route. This route you described before, again how did you select that particular route?

MS. AARONSON: When we got to Westgate?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes.

MS. AARONSON: My apartment is between Westgate and Bundy. We were talking and I just asked Danny if he wanted to take the short walk home or the long walk home.

MR. COCHRAN: What did he say?

MS. AARONSON: Take the longer walk home.

MR. COCHRAN: So it was still a date, right?

MS. AARONSON: We were just walking, right.

MR. COCHRAN: So you took the longer walk home?

MS. AARONSON: Took a longer walk home.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you proceeded on down Gorham at that point?

MS. AARONSON: Correct. We proceeded down Gorham.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Indicating, your Honor, for the record, the witness is pointing using the diagram and she is proceeding down Gorham, People's 26, if the Court pleases.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Down Gorham toward Bundy.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And so when you--as you were walking down Gorham, do you recall the two of you walked and as you turned on Bundy, do you recall on which side of Bundy did you go when you made that turn from Gorham to Bundy?

MS. AARONSON: As we turned--as we crossed over where Gorham and Bundy meet?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes.

MS. AARONSON: We stayed on the same side, which was west, which because the road turns, it turns into the north side.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: Excuse me. The north side and it turns into the west side of the street.

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I'm going to want to trace this particular route, if I can, and I would like to do this, if we can. May I have just one second? Thank you.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I'm going to ask, so we have a record of this, that Mr. Harris be allowed to--I want to trace the route going first and then we will do a separate one coming back, if the Court pleases, on the elmo.

THE COURT: All right. Maybe we can just have different colors for each route.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that okay?

MR. COCHRAN: Why don't you direct Mr. Harris. We are starting at Darlington. That is approximately where you live, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: We will trace the route that you took. Why don't you direct Mr. Harris and he will--

MS. AARONSON: Do you want me to do it through this or keep telling you where to go?

MR. COCHRAN: Tell him which way to go on Darlington.

MS. AARONSON: Go east. You are on Dorothy, but go east two blocks from there. That is Westgate. Go one more block to Granville. Stop at Granville. Make a left at Granville and head up all the way up to Gorham. You are going to cross Gorham and go into Mezzaluna restaurant, if you want to, right.

MR. COCHRAN: So that is the general route that you took going; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Your Honor, I would like to print this out as Defense's next exhibit, if the Court pleases.

THE COURT: All right.

MR. COCHRAN: Next is--

THE COURT: This will be Defense 12--

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, there is an "X" at Dorothy I would like to take off there.

THE COURT: All right.

(Deft's 1233 for id = computer printout)

MS. CLARK: Is that fairly accurate?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: What is that number, your Honor?

THE COURT: 1233.

MR. COCHRAN: 1233. I would like to print this out.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: All right. Is that captured, Mr. Fairtlough? Mr. Harris? Proceed.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor. Now, I would like, your Honor, as soon as that is captured, your Honor, if it is captured, to have Miss Aaronson to demonstrate the route back to her apartment.

MR. COCHRAN: And that is Gorham; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: That is Gorham.

MR. COCHRAN: Why don't you direct him down from Gorham.

MS. AARONSON: Now, you should head west all the way down to where Gorham and Bundy meet.

MR. COCHRAN: You might want to stay on the street.

MS. AARONSON: Now, head north down Bundy. I'm getting my--excuse me. Heading south down.

MR. COCHRAN: South on Bundy at that point?

MS. AARONSON: Right. Bundy turns. We were on the west side of the street, though.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: Go all the way down to Darlington, which is one block passed Dorothy, turn left onto Darlington, and I would pretty much go maybe about another centimeter and stop there. That is pretty much where my apartment is.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Can we mark that?

(Deft's 1234 for id = computer printout)

MR. COCHRAN: Is that again the general route that you took home?

MS. AARONSON: (No audible response.)

MR. COCHRAN: Is that the general route that you took home?

MS. AARONSON: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: That is the longer route that you described for us; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, as you were walking along this route, as you were proceeding down Gorham to Bundy to go southbound on Bundy, what were you and Mr. Mandel doing at that point?

MS. AARONSON: We were talking.

MR. COCHRAN: And without going into the subject matter of the conversation, was this just general conversation?

MS. AARONSON: Just general conversation.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. As you walked down--how long have you lived in that general area, ma'am?

MS. AARONSON: I have lived there now for three and a half years.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And you said you were on the west side of the street; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you recall who was closest to the street and who was closest to what would be the sidewalk?

MS. AARONSON: I was on the outside.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you were closest to the street side?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And Mr. Mandel was inside; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you recall him doing anything, other than talking, as you walked along?

MS. AARONSON: On that side of the street?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes. Okay. Bundy? As you were going southbound on Bundy?

MS. AARONSON: Hitting the trees, leaves on the trees.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: Just walking and he was hitting the trees. That was pretty much it.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. At some point did you walk past 875 south Bundy?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you know where 875 south Bundy is and you became aware of that; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: I know where 875 Bundy is.

MR. COCHRAN: Now?

MS. AARONSON: Now.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You walked right past that particular place that particular night?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: We are trying to locate the photograph that Mr. Shapiro used, your Honor.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: I want to approach if I might, your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: I have People's 42 for identification. Before I put it on the elmo I want your Honor to cut the feed, at any rate, and I will ask the witness a couple of questions.

MR. COCHRAN: You described for us that you were proceeding on the west side of Bundy southbound, you on the outside and Mr. Mandel on the inside; is that correct. I want to show you People's 42, which purports to be a photograph. Have you seen this photograph before?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you recognize what is depicted in this photograph? Supposedly the front part of 875 Bundy?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you recognize that area depicted therein?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you walk past that area that particular night?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, when you walked past 875 south Bundy, do you have a recollection of whether or not you looked to your right or did anything attract your attention as you walked past that location toward that particular condominium?

MS. AARONSON: Nothing attracted my attention at all.

MR. COCHRAN: As you walked down the sidewalk proceeding southbound, did you see any bloody paw prints or any traces of blood on the sidewalk that evening as you walked?

MS. AARONSON: No, I didn't.

MR. COCHRAN: As you walked past 875 Bundy, did you at any time hear any the plaintive wail of a dog?

MS. AARONSON: No, I didn't.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you hear any dogs barking as opposed to plaintively wailing?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: So you continued with your conversation as you walk past; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Was there anything at all that attracted your attention to 875 Bundy when you walked past this location?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: So your Honor, if I might, if the Court may cut the feed, I will just put this up.

THE COURT: Yes.

(Brief pause.)

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: As you walked past 875 Bundy you did not see the scene depicted there at the time you walked past; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you. You may take it down.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, as you continued on--as you continued on your route home, at some point was there a discussion of the time between you and Mr. Mandel? Did anybody look at their watch, if you recall?

MS. AARONSON: Danny looked at his watch.

MR. COCHRAN: Was that at some point after you past the location of 875 south Bundy?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: You were between 875 south Bundy and your home at that point?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And at that time the two of you had a conversation about what time it was?

MS. AARONSON: (No audible response.)

MR. COCHRAN: You can answer that yes or no.

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. CLARK: Objection. That is leading and calls for hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you have a discussion about what time it was?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Same objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you have a conversation with Mr. Mandel on the way home that continued?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And in the course of that conversation did you ever discuss time?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you ever discuss what time it was at any point?

MS. AARONSON: We didn't discuss what time it was, but he looked at his watch.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Was there ever a time when either one of you looked at a watch?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And who looked at a watch?

MS. AARONSON: Danny.

MR. COCHRAN: And where were you approximately when Mr. Danny Mandel looked at his watch?

MS. AARONSON: We were between where my apartment is, sort of right in the middle from where my apartment is to the corner of Darlington and Bundy.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. If you were to look at the diagram again to your right, I guess that is People's 26, I believe, can you use the pointer and show us--show the jury approximately where you were at the time.

MS. AARONSON: If this is the corner, my house is over here, (Indicating). We were over there, (Indicating).

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you were between the corner of Bundy--you were going now which direction is that?

MS. AARONSON: We are heading east.

MR. COCHRAN: East on Darlington between the corner of--the intersection of Bundy and Darlington as you approached your house; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. And did you see him look at his watch at that point?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did he at some point say something about the time?

MS. CLARK: Objection, your Honor, leading.

MR. COCHRAN: Answer that yes or no.

MS. CLARK: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you saw him look at his watch, right?

MS. AARONSON: Uh-huh.

MR. COCHRAN: Right. Did you go back to your house?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. When you got home, did Mr. Mandel leave immediately or did he come up or what happened at that point?

MS. AARONSON: I gave him a glass of water.

MR. COCHRAN: So he came inside?

MS. AARONSON: Came inside.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: I gave him a glass of water. We talked for a few minutes and my other roommate--then one of my roommates came home.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now which roommates came home after you were inside the apartment, if you recall?

MS. AARONSON: My roommate Jean Novack.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you know what time Jean Novack came home?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I do.

MR. COCHRAN: What time was that?

MS. AARONSON: 10:35.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And how long had you been in the house when Miss Novak came home at about 10:35?

MS. AARONSON: About five minutes.

MR. COCHRAN: So what is your best estimate of the time that you got back to your residence there on Darlington on that night?

MS. AARONSON: I misunderstood your question.

MR. COCHRAN: Let me ask the question another way. You told us that your roommate got home at about 10:35?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: You had been home about five minutes?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: So you got home at about 10:30?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And from the location of 875 south Bundy, to your residence, how long did it take you to walk that distance that particular night?

MS. AARONSON: About four minutes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So about four minutes from 875 south Bundy to your residence on Darlington; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Uh-huh.

MR. COCHRAN: You got to answer out loud.

MS. AARONSON: Yes, that's correct.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, since that time have you had occasion to go back out and walk this particular route?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And on how many occasions have you done that?

MS. AARONSON: (No audible response.)

MR. COCHRAN: The route you took that night I'm talking about?

MS. AARONSON: A few occasions on my own.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: Umm, and one occasion very recently where I timed it.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You timed it yourself?

MS. AARONSON: (No audible response.)

MR. COCHRAN: Were you accompanied by anybody when you did that?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I was accompanied by someone.

MR. COCHRAN: By whom?

MS. AARONSON: By both Pat McKenna and Peter Neufeld.

MR. COCHRAN: Peter Neufeld the lawyer?

MS. AARONSON: The lawyer.

MR. COCHRAN: How long ago was that?

MS. AARONSON: Two weeks ago.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you walk the route going to the restaurant?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And how long did that take?

MS. AARONSON: (No audible response.)

MR. COCHRAN: From your house to the restaurant that you have told us about?

MS. AARONSON: We didn't time that route.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you time the route coming back from the restaurant?

MS. AARONSON: We timed the route coming back.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. From the time how long did it take to walk from Mezzaluna back to your residence on Darlington?

MS. AARONSON: It took altogether about 19--19 minutes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And how long did it take, if you know, from the restaurant to 875 south Bundy?

MS. AARONSON: It took us fifteen minutes.

MR. COCHRAN: So about a four-minute difference; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: As you walked this route did you try to walk at approximately the same pace you had walked that particular night?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: So altogether 19 minutes and to 875 south Bundy about fifteen minutes from the restaurant; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, you were describing for us that you had a roommate that came home at about 10:35, Miss Novak?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And was Mr. Mandel still present at that time?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, he was.

MR. COCHRAN: And did he continue to stay there for a period of time?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did your other roommate ever come home that evening?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, she did.

MR. COCHRAN: What time did the other roommate come home, if you know?

MS. AARONSON: She came home a few minutes before eleven o'clock.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And was Mr. Mandel still there at that point?

MS. AARONSON: He was leaving exactly when she came home.

MR. COCHRAN: Just a few minutes before eleven o'clock?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: And that roommate's name is Miss Jennifer Yow?

MS. AARONSON: Jennifer Yow.

MR. COCHRAN: So at one point that evening Miss Jennifer Yow was present your other roommate Miss Novak was present along with you and Mr. Mandel?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Then as I understand your testimony, Mr. Mandel left; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it is.

MR. COCHRAN: Did something happen at about eleven o'clock so you knew what time that was? Were you watching television?

MS. AARONSON: I sat down with my roommate Jennifer. We talked about our day and we turned on the television and the evening news started.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So then the evening news being at what time? Eleven o'clock?

MS. AARONSON: Eleven o'clock.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So at this point Mr. Mandel has now left and it is you and your two roommates; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, at any time up to the time that Mr. Mandel left did you hear any furious barking or any loud barking in that particular area at all that night?

MS. AARONSON: No, I didn't.

MR. COCHRAN: As you walked past 875 you already told us you didn't hear any barking at that point, right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Before you got home that evening did you hear any barking that you recall--

MS. AARONSON: No, I never heard any barking at all.

MR. COCHRAN: --of dogs? All right. Now, at some point you had occasion to talk to some police officers regarding this case; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And you had had occasion to speak with the lady to my immediate left, Miss Marcia Clark?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you recall approximately when was that you talked to Miss Marcia Clark?

MS. AARONSON: When I met with Marcia Clark?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes.

MS. AARONSON: In August of last year.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You met with her where?

MS. AARONSON: In her office.

MR. COCHRAN: In this building?

MS. AARONSON: Yes. In this building.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And who else was present during the conversation that you had with Miss Marcia Clark?

MS. AARONSON: I forget the gentleman's last name, the investigator Bill--Phil--Philip--I feel very embarrassed. He was a very nice gentleman. I don't remember his name.

MR. COCHRAN: Just one second. (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: Let me ask you this: Could it have been Bill Hodgman, a tall gentleman?

MS. AARONSON: No, it wasn't Mr. Hodgman; an investigator.

MR. COCHRAN: Phil Vannatter?

MS. AARONSON: Vannatter.

MR. COCHRAN: An LAPD detective?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Name the investigator. So Phil Vannatter?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: So you and Detective Vannatter and Marcia Clark met in her office in August of 1994, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: How long did that meeting last?

MS. AARONSON: About a hour, and my recollection is that I think it was a little longer than an hour, maybe an hour, hour and a half.

MR. COCHRAN: During that time did you discuss the events of the night of June 12th, 1994?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, we did.

MR. COCHRAN: And you told Miss Clark everything to the best of your recollection, did you?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And was she taking notes at that time, Miss Clark?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I think she was.

MR. COCHRAN: And was Mr. Vannatter--was Detective Vannatter taking notes?

MS. AARONSON: I honestly can't recall if there was a pad in front of him at all times or not.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you recall whether or not either one of them tape-recorded your conversation?

MS. AARONSON: The conversation was not tape-record.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Was it--during the entire ninety minutes or so that you talked to them were they the only two in the room or did somebody else come in?

MS. AARONSON: No, only the two of them were in the room.

MR. COCHRAN: And prior to this conversation in August of 1994, had you had occasion to talk to the members of the Los Angeles Police Department about your observations on the evening of June 12th, before you met with Miss Clark?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you recall when that was, approximately, that you first spoke with the police in connection with your observations of June 12th?

MS. AARONSON: The first time I spoke with the police was on Tuesday, June 14th.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. That would be two days after that Sunday; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And how did it happen that you spoke to a police officer at that time? Did you call them or did they call you?

MS. AARONSON: I called them.

MR. COCHRAN: And was it your intent to share with them some information that you thought you had?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: This might be a good point, your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take our recess for the noon hour. Please remember all of my admonitions to you. Don't discuss the case among yourselves, form any opinions about the case, conduct my deliberations until the matter has been submitted to you or allow anybody to communicate with you with regard to the case. And Miss Aaronson, you may step down. You are ordered to come back at 1:30. All right. We will stand in recess until 1:30.

(At 12:00 P.M. the noon recess was taken until 1:30 P.M. of the same day.)

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, JULY 11, 1995 1:35 P.M.

Department no. 103 Hon. Lance A. Ito, Judge

APPEARANCES: (Appearances as heretofore noted.)

(Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)

(Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)

(The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. Mr. Simpson is again present before the Court with his counsel, People are represented. The jury is not present. Counsel, anything we need to take up?

MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, can I point out where we were? 6-15--

THE COURT: 6-14 call back. That's where we were.

MR. DARDEN: As I understand it, Mr. Riechardt is going to be testifying this afternoon. And if that is the case, we need to resolve the 352 issue.

MR. COCHRAN: No. What I've decided--he's here, but I've got so many witnesses, and you said--if I can finish eight witnesses, he would be nine, and I think that's probably pressing it a little bit. So I've asked him to come back tomorrow afternoon.

THE COURT: All right. Deputy Magnera, let's have the jurors, please.

(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Let the record reflect we've been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Miss Aaronson, would you resume the witness stand, please.

Ellen Aaronson, the witness on the stand at the time of the lunch recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

THE COURT: All right. Would you pull the microphone close to you, please. All right. Good afternoon again, Miss Aaronson.

MS. AARONSON: Good afternoon.

THE COURT: You are reminded you are still under oath. And, Mr. Cochran, you may resume.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly, your Honor. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good afternoon.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: Miss Aaronson, I probably neglected to ask you this morning, have you had any college training for your work?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And what college did you attend?

MS. AARONSON: I went to New York University, Tish School of the Arts.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you graduate from that--

MS. AARONSON: I graduated, yes, in 1989.

THE COURT: Miss Aaronson, you're going to have to let Mr. Cochran finish asking the question before you start your answer.

MS. AARONSON: Sorry.

THE COURT: Okay.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, just before we broke for lunch, I asked you whether or not you had called the Los Angeles Police Department to share with them any information that you thought you had in connection with this case. Do you recall that?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you remember approximately on what date you called the Los Angeles Police Department?

MS. AARONSON: On Tuesday, June 14th.

MR. COCHRAN: Tuesday, June--

MS. AARONSON: 14th.

MR. COCHRAN: June 14th? And this would have been two days after that Sunday night; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you remember the name of the police officer that you first spoke with at that time?

MS. AARONSON: If you told me the name, I would remember it.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Would the name Kilcoyne, K-I-L-C-O-Y-N-E, refresh your recollection at all?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Dennis Kilcoyne I believe?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And you just called into the police department and you spoke to a particular officer; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: I was transferred to that particular officer.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You didn't know him before this time?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. The first time that you called and spoke to this Officer Kilcoyne, did you tell him--well, did you know about or were you sure about the various times of everything that took place?

MS. AARONSON: No, I wasn't sure about the times.

MR. COCHRAN: What did you tell him about the time and what you needed to do, if anything?

MS. AARONSON: I told him that I needed to confirm with my roommates, I needed to reconfirm with Mezzaluna with the manager about specific times in regards to the bill and I needed to confirm some other times with my roommates.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So when you first called him--why were you calling the police department at that point?

MS. AARONSON: At that point, I paid attention to the news reports, and the reports said things that were different to my memory. I thought it was something I was supposed to do, so I called the police department.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you made that call. And so you had the initial conversation with Detective Kilcoyne and you told him you had to do some checking about specific times and you had to check with certain people?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. After you had this--you didn't talk to him face-to-face at that time, did you?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: This was a phone conversation?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. After you had the initial conversation, which you believe was on June 14th with Detective Kilcoyne, did you have occasion to check any of these things out regarding the times that evening?

MS. AARONSON: Immediately after I spoke with him.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Tell the Court and jury what you did at that time, ma'am.

MS. AARONSON: I put another phone call into Mezzaluna when I was told the manager was going to return.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: I spoke with the manager at the time, asked him if the clock on the receipt where your credit card goes through, if it was off by an hour. He confirmed that it was off. That was the second time I was confirming with Mezzaluna. I also finally got in touch with my roommate, Jean Novack, to confirm and ask her what time she came home.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And you told us in your testimony this morning that the best of your recollection, Miss Novack came home at about 10:45 on the evening of June 12th; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: You confirmed that?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: What else, if anything, did you do after this initial conversation to Kilcoyne, if you recall? Did you talk at all with Danny Mandel?

MS. AARONSON: I spoke with him before I spoke with Kilcoyne.

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MS. AARONSON: I didn't speak with him afterwards.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And after you did these things that you just described for us, did you have a better idea of the times involved on that particular night?

MS. AARONSON: A much better idea.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you have occasion to have a second conversation at some point with Detective Kilcoyne?

MS. AARONSON: Yes. He called me back a number--a few weeks later.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And have you seen a copy of that particular report, statement form?

MS. AARONSON: Yes. Yes, I have.

MR. COCHRAN: And that was, again, a telephonic interview?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it was.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, the date and time of that interview was not July 3rd, 1967, was it?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: Objection. This is leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: I'm asking that question.

MR. COCHRAN: The interview wasn't on July 3rd, 1967, was it?

MS. AARONSON: No, it wasn't.

MR. COCHRAN: What's that day?

MS. AARONSON: My birthday.

MR. COCHRAN: So he didn't talk to you on that day, did he?

MS. AARONSON: No, he didn't.

MR. COCHRAN: But, at any rate, did he then take some additional facts down from you at some point after the initial interview?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, he did.

MR. COCHRAN: And was that--what date was that on, if you know?

MS. AARONSON: It was the Friday of the last--last day of the hearing, of the preliminary hearing.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Something like the date of July 8th ring a bell?

MS. AARONSON: July 8th.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. So how did you talk to him on that occasion?

MS. AARONSON: I came home after the preliminary hearing, and he called me.

MR. COCHRAN: You had been down here to testify?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Were you ever called as a witness?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I was.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. And who asked you questions at that time?

MS. AARONSON: Nobody did. I wasn't called in.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You were never called as a witness?

MS. AARONSON: I was subpoenaed as a witness.

MR. COCHRAN: Yes.

MS. AARONSON: I was asked to leave. I was told to leave. They didn't--decided not to call me.

MR. COCHRAN: And you had been down in this building and then you waited for a while and you were sent back home?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And you never testified at that hearing, did you?

MS. AARONSON: I never testified at that hearing.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you ever see Miss Clark while you were down here that day?

MS. AARONSON: Maybe just pass--I don't have a recollection, no.

MR. COCHRAN: But it was after you left court or left this building that day, went back home, then you had this other conversation with Detective Kilcoyne; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: A number of hours afterwards, but yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And was that then a reinterview by Kilcoyne?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And that was over the phone?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And at that time, did you spell out to him the times involved in this case?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you share with him the time that the--you had gotten the receipt from the bill at Mezzaluna?

MS. AARONSON: I shared with him the time, correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And what time did you share with him?

MS. AARONSON: I shared with him that the time on the receipt was an hour off and I confirmed it with Mezzaluna.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And so what time was on the receipt?

MS. AARONSON: 8:55.

MR. COCHRAN: And what time was it actually?

MS. AARONSON: 9:55.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You told Detective Kilcoyne that, did you?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And then did you talk to him about the route that you took--strike that. Before you talk about the route, did you tell Detective Kilcoyne whether or not at any time while still at Mezzaluna, you had occasion to look at your wristwatch?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you recall that now, looking at your wristwatch?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And when you looked at your watch, what time was it at that time?

MS. AARONSON: It was 10 to 10:00.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And you determined that also?

MS. AARONSON: I determined that, correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. And at about that time, the 10 to 10:00 time, so we're clear in perspective, what was happening at that restaurant at that time?

MS. AARONSON: The waitress came up to us and asked us to pay our bill and gave us a bill.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. That was before you got the bill?

MS. AARONSON: Yes. She wanted to--

MR. COCHRAN: So then as you told us, then you talked for 10 or 15 minutes after you got the bill back, et cetera?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Now, did you tell Detective Kilcoyne about that?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you explain to him the various things that happened?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you share with Detective Kilcoyne on this July 8th conversation that you also talked with your--

MS. CLARK: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Well, all right.

MR. COCHRAN: In the course of this second conversation with Detective Kilcoyne, did the subject matter of your roommate, Jean Novack, come up?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it did.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And what did you tell him about gene Novack?

MS. AARONSON: I told him that I spoke--

MS. CLARK: Objection. Hearsay.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: She can't tell us what she said, but she can say what she said.

THE COURT: Sustained. Still an out of court statement, counsel.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did the subject matter of Jean Novack and the time of her arrival come up in this conversation; yes or no?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it did.

MR. COCHRAN: And did you share with him a time?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: That was in this July 8th conversation?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you tell him that you didn't have any alcohol that day at all?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you tell him you had no alcohol to drink that evening?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did tell him that.

MR. COCHRAN: Now--and in the course of that, did you also describe to him the route you took home?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And is that the same thing you told us here in court?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it is.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, with regard to that route by the way, when you were walking home from the Mezzaluna restaurant, do you recall as you proceeded down Gorham Street toward Bundy, do you recall passing any other people at that point on the street?

MS. AARONSON: I recall passing no one.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. When you got to Bundy and you turned left on Bundy to head toward Darlington, do you recall seeing anyone else on the street?

MS. AARONSON: I recall seeing no one.

MR. COCHRAN: As you got to Darlington, do you recall encountering at some point someone walking a dog?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained. Answer is stricken.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you recall at some point when you got to Darlington seeing anything unusual?

MS. AARONSON: I didn't see anything unusual. I saw people, a couple walking their dog.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And where was that?

MS. AARONSON: It was on Darlington.

MR. COCHRAN: And can you point for us on the diagram there, I think People's 26, approximately where it was that you saw this couple walking this dog?

MS. AARONSON: Approximately before we stopped to look--for Danny to look at his watch. I can't say exactly where (Indicating).

MR. COCHRAN: All right.

MR. COCHRAN: This is an area on Darlington just up from Bundy, your Honor, an area she's previously mentioned where Mr. Mandel I believe looked at his watch.

THE COURT: In the area of the alley there. Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: There in the street, yes. Think so.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, is that--did you see any other people walking any dogs on that particular night?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Could you describe for the jury that dog that particular evening, how the dog appeared?

MS. AARONSON: Medium size, short-haired dog.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Had you described that also for the detective when you talked to him, if you recall?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, with regard to Bundy, when you were walking down Bundy, do you recall whether or not--the state of the traffic at that time? Was there a lot of traffic, not much traffic or what was the condition of traffic on Bundy as you were walking along that particular evening, ma'am?

MS. AARONSON: There was no traffic. It was a very quiet evening.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you recall whether or not you saw anyone out on the street that particular evening, anybody walking along when you were on Bundy?

MS. AARONSON: I didn't notice anyone.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, you had shared with us I think this morning that at some point, you had a conversation with Miss Marcia Clark and Detective Vannatter in this building. Do you recall that?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And since the time you testified, have you had occasion to review a report of that particular interview?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I have.

MR. COCHRAN: And did that report refresh your recollection as to the time or the date of that particular interview in this building?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it did.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you recall now when that interview was with Marcia Clark?

MS. AARONSON: It was in September.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Was that on or about September 12th?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: About 9:15 in the morning?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And in that conversation with Miss Marcia Clark and Detective Vannatter, again, did you lay out for them and tell them as best you could the events of that particular night of June 12th, 1994?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And you tried to be as accurate as you could in that regard?

MS. AARONSON: I tried to be as accurate. Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: May I have just a second, your Honor?

THE COURT: Certainly.

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: Now, after that night, that date with Mr. Mandel, did you ever go out again with him?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: That was the only date?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, at some point, you talked with me; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And when was that? About a week or so ago?

MS. AARONSON: About a week and a half.

MR. COCHRAN: And where was that conversation?

MS. AARONSON: That I spoke with you?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes.

MS. AARONSON: In your office.

MR. COCHRAN: Was that the first time we ever met?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: We met one other time?

MS. AARONSON: Very briefly in passing.

MR. COCHRAN: Was that somewhere socially or something?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. We weren't together?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: You happened to see me at a place?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: My wife may be watching.

MR. COCHRAN: You saw me someplace socially?

MS. AARONSON: I saw you someplace where we were both at, not together.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Separately? I was with my wife, right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, you were.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Good.

MS. CLARK: Objection. Calls for speculation.

MR. COCHRAN: I'll take the stand. I'll take the stand. I was with my wife. No speculation.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you. All right. Let's have some order, please.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: So at that time, we saw--we just spoke to each other; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: I just introduced myself.

MR. COCHRAN: And I didn't know who you were, and you introduced yourself?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And we had occasion to speak at my office about a week and a half ago you say?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. The next time we saw each other was when?

MS. AARONSON: About a week and a half ago.

MR. COCHRAN: And that was at my office; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it was.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And prior to your coming here today, you never met Mr. O.J. Simpson, have you?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: You don't know him?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: You've come here pursuant to a subpoena to tell the truth to this jury?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you tell the jury the truth?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, as best as I know the truth. Absolutely.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly.

THE COURT: Miss Clark.

MS. CLARK: Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: Good afternoon, Miss Aaronson.

MS. AARONSON: Good afternoon.

MS. CLARK: I just had to ask you one question. That credit card receipt that shows the amount for 47.50?

MS. AARONSON: Uh-huh.

MS. CLARK: Close to that. 47.40 or something?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MS. CLARK: You guys didn't have anything to drink, right? You just had dinner?

MS. AARONSON: No alcohol.

MS. CLARK: Right. You just had dinner, just food?

MS. AARONSON: Cappuccino afterwards.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And you had no dessert?

MS. AARONSON: Not that I recall.

MS. CLARK: And that's 47.40?

MS. AARONSON: I don't know the prices of the meal, but I know what I ate.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Did that seem like a large amount to pay for just two dinners and a cappuccino?

MR. COCHRAN: Object, your Honor. If you go out to dinner--object.

MS. CLARK: Well, you know, I don't eat at the Red Star restaurants maybe.

THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.

MS. CLARK: Did that seem--did that seem kind of expensive?

MS. AARONSON: I--

THE COURT: Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Miss Aaronson, would you please allow the wit--the attorney to complete asking you the question before you start to answer.

MS. AARONSON: I'm sorry. I thought I was answering the question that you already asked.

THE COURT: Miss Clark, ask another question.

MS. CLARK: Yes. Did they seem expensive to you for just food and cappuccino?

MS. AARONSON: I didn't look at the whole bill. I just know the bill came and saw the bill from a distance as it was sitting--as if it's at this distance right now (Indicating).

MS. CLARK: Okay. Looking at it now, does that seem like a lot of money to pay for two dinners and cappuccino?

MR. COCHRAN: Irrelevant and immaterial.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: I really don't--I can't even tell you if I think it's expensive or not. I don't know what the prices were of what we ordered.

MS. CLARK: You didn't pay the bill, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Danny Mandel paid the bill?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And when the bill came, you didn't look at it; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: I didn't study the bill.

MS. CLARK: You saw the bill being put down on the table, right?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MS. CLARK: You were not going to pay it, so you didn't study it, right?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MS. CLARK: The waitress that was serving you, can you describe her for us?

MS. AARONSON: She was about 5/5, light brown hair, ponytail, cute. That's all I can tell you about her.

MS. CLARK: Dark skin?

MS. AARONSON: No. Light skinned. Fair skinned.

MS. CLARK: So if Danny said that she was dark skinned, he would be mistaken; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Object, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Misstates--

THE COURT: Argumentative.

MS. CLARK: Now, that waitress that you had, did you ever know her name?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: Do you know her name now?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: Had she ever waited on you before?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: Or since?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: You've been back to the Mezzaluna since then?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: On how many occasions?

MS. AARONSON: Once.

MS. CLARK: And when was that?

MS. AARONSON: Two months ago.

MS. CLARK: And that was the only occasion?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Did you attempt to locate the waitress that had served you?

MS. AARONSON: At that time?

MS. CLARK: Yes.

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: Did you attempt to locate that waitress at some other time?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And when was that?

MS. AARONSON: When I called Mezzaluna and spoke with the manager.

MS. CLARK: And what manager was that? What was the name of the manager you spoke to?

MS. AARONSON: John--I don't know his last name.

MS. CLARK: And--

MS. AARONSON: He's no longer there.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Did you ask him for the name of the waitress that served you that night?

MS. AARONSON: I started to.

MS. CLARK: But you stopped?

MS. AARONSON: He pushed me off the phone because he had media there and didn't have the time to talk to me.

MS. CLARK: And you didn't call back?

MS. AARONSON: That was the second time I called there and no, I didn't call back.

MS. CLARK: Now, the waitress, you say she left before you did?

MS. AARONSON: I don't know if she left before I did. She said that her shift was ending and she wanted to leave.

MS. CLARK: Were there any other waiters there when she took the bill from you for the last time?

MS. AARONSON: There were other waiters in the restaurant? Correct.

MS. CLARK: Who?

MS. AARONSON: I don't know.

MS. CLARK: Were there other men or other women there?

MS. AARONSON: I couldn't tell you.

MS. CLARK: How many of them were there?

MS. AARONSON: I wouldn't know.

MS. CLARK: When you entered the restaurant, you indicated it was very full?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And when you left the restaurant, you indicated it wasn't quite as full?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: How many tables were seated at the time that you left?

MS. AARONSON: At the time that I left?

MS. CLARK: Right.

MS. AARONSON: There looked like there were a few tables that were empty. I can't tell you how many.

MS. CLARK: There were a few tables empty. That means that there were several tables full of people still?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: So if Danny Mandel said only one table of customers was left--

MR. COCHRAN: Objection. Argumentative.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Move to strike.

MS. CLARK: And you're sure that there were several tables with customers still seated?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer.

MS. AARONSON: Oh. Can you repeat the question, please?

MS. CLARK: You're sure there were several tables of customers still seated at the time you left?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: After you left the restaurant, you walked out on Gorham; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you said you stepped over that low railing?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And when you did that, you proceeded down Gorham for a ways?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall stopping at some point when Danny had to go back into the restaurant?

MS. AARONSON: I don't recall that.

MS. CLARK: You don't recall that. Does that mean it did not happen or you simply do not remember?

MS. AARONSON: I do not recall. I simply do not remember.

MS. CLARK: You do not remember whether he had to stop and go back into the restaurant?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: I do not remember.

MS. CLARK: Do you remember what your waitress was wearing that night?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: Do you remember what you were wearing that night?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: What were you wearing?

MS. AARONSON: White jeans and a light blue jean shirt that has no sleeves that ties in the stomach with a blazer, that's a cream colored blazer that has stripes.

MS. CLARK: And what was Danny wearing?

MS. AARONSON: I have no idea.

MS. CLARK: This was the first time you had ever gone out with him?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Now, you indicate that you were asked by the waitress if she could close out the bill, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you specifically remembered what time it was when she did that because you looked at your watch; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you're very certain as you sit here today that you looked at your watch and saw that it was 10 minutes of 10:00 when the waitress came to ask you to close out the bill; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you're as certain about that as everything else you've testified to today; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Earlier you told us, did you not, that you had a conversation with myself and Detective Vannatter in August; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Then we had the lunch break and you spoke to Mr. Cochran; did you not?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: And he refreshed your recollection, didn't he, that you actually spoke to me and Detective Vannatter in September; isn't that right?

MS. AARONSON: It is. I also said to you that it was around August.

MS. CLARK: Now, you also testified that you had a conversation, your first conversation with the police in June, on June the 14th; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you're absolutely certain of that, it was June 14th, correct?

MS. AARONSON: I'm positive.

MS. CLARK: You're positive.

MS. CLARK: I have here a police report, your Honor. I ask that it be marked People's next in order, 494?

THE COURT: 495.

MS. CLARK: 495.

(Peo's 495 for id = police report)

MR. COCHRAN: Can I see it, please?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MS. CLARK: Let me show you the statement now marked as People's 495.

MS. AARONSON: Uh-huh.

MS. CLARK: Do you recognize your name on that statement?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And is that your name, Ellen Aaronson?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And do you see a date and time for the interview of that statement?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And what does it say?

MS. AARONSON: June 15th.

MS. CLARK: Now, let's talk about the statement for a minute, Miss Aaronson. I take it Mr. Cochran didn't show you this statement; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: No, he did. I said something to him that I know it was on a Tuesday that I spoke and that it wasn't Wednesday.

MS. CLARK: And--

MS. AARONSON: So I know what you're going to show me.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So if the detective were to testify that he talked to you on June the 15th, he would be wrong?

MR. COCHRAN: Objection, your Honor. Speculation, argumentative.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: So if the date says there, according to the detective, that he spoke to you on June the 15th at 10:40, he would be wrong. Is that what you're saying?

MR. COCHRAN: Objection, your Honor. Same question.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: Is that date incorrect?

MS. AARONSON: That date is incorrect.

MS. CLARK: And you're certain that you are right?

MS. AARONSON: Positive.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh. Okay. Let's look at this statement, Miss Aaronson. You have a monitor next to you. If it would be more comfortable, you can view it there.

THE COURT: Phone number, counsel.

MS. AARONSON: Thank you.

MS. CLARK: I'll try and protect what little privacy you have left. We're just blocking off your--the identifying information. That was correct as of June, correct, of 1994?

MS. AARONSON: Correct. May I ask you a question?

MS. CLARK: Yes.

MS. AARONSON: I can't tell--because you just moved the top. Is this the first statement or the second statement?

MS. CLARK: This is your June 15th or what you say June 14th statement.

MS. AARONSON: Fine.

MS. CLARK: All right. Now, in this statement--let me read it with you.

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the from, reading at this point.

THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.

MS. CLARK: "Witness and her date walked to her apartment passing the crime scene location at 2300 hours, which is 11:00 P.M." Do you see that?

MS. AARONSON: I'm looking for where you are. Yes, I see that.

MS. CLARK: All right. And it then says: "Witness knows the time because she looked at her wristwatch and was surprised of the hour." Do you see that?

MS. AARONSON: Uh-huh.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall making those statements to Detective Kilcoyne?

MS. AARONSON: I recall making those statements initially to Detective Kilcoyne. I also recall making a--talking to him and making a correction.

MS. CLARK: Yes. And you later talked to him. I understand that, Miss Aaronson. But this was the first time you spoke to the police, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And this was only, well, according to you, one day, according to the police report, two days at the most after the event occurred, correct?

MS. AARONSON: According to me, it's two days as well.

MS. CLARK: Two days. Three days according to this report?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And that at that point and time, your memory was very fresh as to what occurred that night; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: My memory was not that secure at that time and I told him that initially.

MS. CLARK: Do you see that in the report anywhere?

MS. AARONSON: No. I also don't see a lot of things that we discussed.

MS. CLARK: But you do see that you told him that you were sure of the time because you looked at your watch and were surprised at the hour. You did tell him that, didn't you?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form. That's argumentative.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: I told him that I looked at my watch at 10 to and I didn't know what the 10 to was. That's not verbatim what I said to him.

MS. CLARK: According to this statement then, when you--when he writes here that you told him you passed by the crime scene location at 11:00 o'clock and that you knew the time because you looked at your watch and were surprised at the hour, that would be incorrect?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: So if Detective Kilcoyne came in and said that you told him that--

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of this question again.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: You do admit, however, that you told him you passed by the crime scene at 11:00 o'clock?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: No, I don't admit that that's what I said. I said to him that I looked at my watch at 10 to. I thought it was 10 to 11:00. I didn't tell--and that was not when I was by the crime scene at all.

MS. CLARK: You think you told him that you were looking at your watch at 10 to 11:00 when you were still in the restaurant?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And that you think you passed by the location at 11:00 o'clock?

MS. AARONSON: No. I told him that I looked at my watch at 10 to and that we sat and talked for a little while and then walked by the apartment and didn't give him the time. I just knew that it was after that--at that point, I was thinking that it was around 10 to 11:00, so which means it had to be after 11:00 o'clock.

MS. CLARK: That you walked by?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MS. CLARK: Nevertheless, you indicated to him that you were certain then that you looked at your watch at the Mezzaluna at 10 to 11:00 and you were certain of that time because you looked at your watch. That's what you told him?

MS. AARONSON: No. I told him that I was certain that it was 10 to, that I think it was 10 to 11:00, but I have to check, I'm not positive.

MS. CLARK: And when you say that you had to check, what you did was, you called Danny Mandel; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you asked him to look at the credit card receipt; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: No. I asked him if he recalled what time it was that I asked him--that I asked--I asked him what time it was that he looked at his watch when we got by my apartment. That was my first--that was the question I asked.

MS. CLARK: You asked him whether he had looked at his watch before he got to your apartment?

MS. AARONSON: No. I knew he looked at the watch. I asked him what time it was, if he had any recollection of what time it was when he looked at his watch before we got to my apartment.

THE COURT: Wait. Wait.

MS. CLARK: Excuse me. I'm sorry. I thought she--

THE COURT: Both of you. Please, let the attorney finish asking the question. Miss Clark, let the witness finish answering.

MS. CLARK: I thought she had, your Honor. I wasn't watching. I'm sorry.

MS. CLARK: All right. Today, however, you are certain that you looked at your watch and it was 10 minutes to 10:00?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: When the waitress came and asked you to pay your bill, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And then the waitress brought the bill, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And did you look at your watch at that point?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: And when Mr. Mandel paid, he signed the credit card receipt? Do you recall when he signed it?

MS. AARONSON: That was before it came back to us. When she came up to us 10 to 10:00, she gave us the bill. He gave her--he gave--Danny gave the waitress the credit card immediately. She then came back with the credit card receipt. When she--

MS. CLARK: And he signed it?

MS. AARONSON: And it sat there. Right.

MS. CLARK: And what time was it is exactly when he signed it?

MS. AARONSON: I don't know what time it was exactly.

MS. CLARK: You didn't look at your watch?

MS. AARONSON: I did not look at my watch.

MS. CLARK: And after he signed the credit card receipt, you sat and talked to him for a while; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Can you tell us if all of the tables around you were still seated, still filled with patrons?

MS. AARONSON: No. I couldn't tell that you.

MS. CLARK: You don't know who was sitting around you, do you?

MS. AARONSON: No, I don't.

MS. CLARK: And you don't know how long you sat and talked with him, do you?

MS. AARONSON: I have a recollection, yes, I do.

MS. CLARK: Did you look at your watch when you got up to leave?

MS. AARONSON: No, I didn't.

MS. CLARK: And you walked out of the Mezzaluna and out onto Gorham; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: That's correct.

MS. CLARK: And it's your testimony today that you walked straight down Gorham and turned left on Bundy; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Now, you would agree, would you not, Miss Aaronson, that Westgate is a quieter street than Bundy?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And would you also agree, Miss Aaronson, that Granville is a quieter street than Bundy?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And when I refer to Westgate and Granville, I'm referring to Westgate as the street just north of Dorothy--excuse me. Westgate is the street just north of Bundy and Granville is the street just north of that.

MS. AARONSON: You're heading west right now.

MS. CLARK: I'm just pointing to it.

MS. AARONSON: Yeah. It's not north of Bundy. It's east of Bundy.

MS. CLARK: East of Bundy. Yeah. On this chart as we face it above it--okay.

MS. AARONSON: Yeah.

MS. CLARK: And both of those are quieter streets than Bundy; isn't that right?

MS. AARONSON: Much.

MS. CLARK: Bundy is a fairly well traffic street would you say?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And the intersection of Bundy and Gorham is not controlled for Bundy traffic; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: It's only controlled for Gorham; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Are you asking me if there's a stop sign there?

MS. CLARK: Yes.

MS. AARONSON: There is not a stop sign going from Bundy as the road turns, but there is a stop sign from Gorham.

MS. CLARK: That was my question.

MS. AARONSON: Okay.

MS. CLARK: Okay. So there's a stop sign at Gorham?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: But the traffic for Bundy is not controlled at that intersection, right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And when you got to the location of Gorham and Westgate, you say you stopped and debated which route to take?

MS. AARONSON: Didn't debate. I just asked him if he wanted to take a shorter route or the longer route.

MS. CLARK: You agree, would you not, Miss Aaronson, that it would be quicker to walk down Gorham--to walk down Gorham, turning left onto Westgate or Granville?

MS. AARONSON: Granville.

MS. CLARK: Granville or Westgate and then turn again--oops.

MS. AARONSON: One block down.

MS. CLARK: Yeah. One block down, and then turn right onto Darlington. That would be quicker, wouldn't it?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it would.

MS. CLARK: But instead, you walked all the way down Gorham across to the west side of Bundy and walked down Bundy coming around to Darlington, correct?

MS. AARONSON: To be specific, which I wasn't before, we didn't go exactly to the corner. We sort of cut the street.

MS. CLARK: Cut below Dorothy?

MS. AARONSON: Below Dorothy before Darlington. Walked on an angle. And I don't think I answered your question. Yes, it is--the other route is much shorter.

MS. CLARK: Is much shorter? Now, you haven't seen Mr. Mandel since that night; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: I saw him once.

MS. CLARK: And was that a date?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: On what occasion did you see him?

MS. AARONSON: When I was leaving Mr. Cochran's office, he arrived.

MS. CLARK: Now, you spoke to him--did you speak to him before you spoke to Detective Kilcoyne for the first time?

MS. AARONSON: Very briefly, yes, we did.

MS. CLARK: And for what purpose did you speak to him?

MS. AARONSON: I didn't want to call the police if I wasn't positive about things.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh.

MS. AARONSON: I spoke to him very briefly. He didn't want to talk--he didn't want to get involved at first.

MS. CLARK: And when you spoke to him, did you ask him about the timing of things?

MS. AARONSON: At that time, no.

MS. CLARK: What did you ask him?

MS. AARONSON: I told him--we discussed it. We thought it was pretty weird we were there.

MS. CLARK: And you didn't talk to him at all about what time you left the Mezzaluna?

MS. AARONSON: Not at that stage, no.

MS. CLARK: You did talk to him later?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: After you spoke to Detective Kilcoyne?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: During that first conversation with Mr. Mandel, did you talk to him about keeping his credit card receipt?

MS. AARONSON: Not during that conversation, no. Not that I recall, about keeping his credit card receipt.

MS. CLARK: But you told Detective Kilcoyne you claim in your first interview with him in June that you were going to get a copy of the credit card receipt; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes. That I was going to find out what took place on that credit card receipt. Correct.

MS. CLARK: But you had not yet talked to Mr. Mandel about that?

MS. AARONSON: Not about--totally about the credit card receipt, not of my recollection. I know I spoke to Danny in--during that period of--during that day. Umm, but exactly at what time I spoke to Danny about the time on the credit card receipt, I can't tell you.

MS. CLARK: So you did not talk to Mr. Mandel about the credit card receipt before you spoke to Detective Kilcoyne, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Yet you told Detective Kilcoyne that you were going to get a copy of the credit card receipt, correct?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of question. It's argumentative, assumes--

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: I thought it was a logical way of figuring out the time.

MS. CLARK: At that time, you didn't even know if Mr. Mandel would keep a copy of his credit card receipt, did you?

MS. AARONSON: No, I--

MR. COCHRAN: Objection. It's argumentative, your Honor.

THE COURT: It calls for speculation is what it does. Sustained.

MS. CLARK: Well, you didn't know if you could deliver on your promise to Detective Kilcoyne, the promise you claim you made about delivering on the credit card receipt; is that right?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of that question, promise.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: Argumentative.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: Do I answer?

MS. CLARK: Yes.

MS. AARONSON: It was more of a promise to myself. It wasn't to him. But no, I couldn't let him know if I was going to get it or not.

MS. CLARK: But you claim you did tell him that that day?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Now, as you walked down Bundy--

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: As you walked--I'm showing you on the monitor, it's easier, so you can follow along.

MS. CLARK: And for the record, on the monitor, I'm showing her the chart marked as People's 26, your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes.

MS. CLARK: As you walked down Bundy, you were on the inside or the outside of the sidewalk?

MS. AARONSON: I was on the outside.

MS. CLARK: You were closest to the street?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Miss Aaronson, you spoke to Mr. Mandel once before you spoke to Detective Kilcoyne, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And then you spoke to him after you talked to Detective Kilcoyne; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: On how many occasions did you speak to Mr. Mandel after you spoke to Detective Kilcoyne for the first time in June?

MS. AARONSON: Once.

MS. CLARK: Only once?

MS. AARONSON: After--let me--how many times did I speak to him between the two conversations or just since speaking with doctor--with Detective Kilcoyne?

MS. CLARK: I'll--

MS. AARONSON: I'm sorry. I'm confused.

MS. CLARK: Between the date of June the 15th--

MS. AARONSON: Uh-huh.

MS. CLARK: --and July the 8th?

MS. AARONSON: Okay.

MS. CLARK: How many times did you speak to Mr. Mandel?

MS. AARONSON: I'm sorry. I spoke to him my recollection is twice.

MS. CLARK: Twice.

MS. AARONSON: I spoke to him the day--the first time I spoke to Detective Kilcoyne and I spoke to him on the 7th, the night before I had to appear. He called me.

MS. CLARK: I'm sorry. And the Defense subpoenaed you to the preliminary hearing, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct. He didn't know that.

MS. CLARK: And then the Defense did not call you to testify at the preliminary hearing, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you spoke to Danny Mandel then between June the 15th and July the 8th how many times?

MS. AARONSON: Altogether, I would say approximately three.

MS. CLARK: Three times. And on each of those occasions, did you discuss the events of the night of June the 12th?

MS. AARONSON: The first time I spoke to him, it was very brief. The second time I spoke to him, it was about the credit card. We didn't get totally into the whole evening. The third time I spoke to him, it was a conversation about calling the police because he thought we should say something, and I told him that I already did and that I was subpoenaed. He didn't know that.

MS. CLARK: And had you discussed what time you left the Mezzaluna with him?

MS. AARONSON: I don't recall.

MS. CLARK: You don't remember that?

MS. AARONSON: I don't recall if we discussed the exact time that we left Mezzaluna, no.

MS. CLARK: You don't recall whether you left--whether you talked to him about what time you left the Mezzaluna on that occasion?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: I don't recall. He called me late at night the night before the hearing and I was a little nervous. So I don't--

MS. CLARK: He called you the night before the preliminary hearing?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Now, on the two previous occasions that you spoke to him between June the 15th and July the 8th, did you discuss what time you left the Mezzaluna?

MS. AARONSON: I don't recall discussing our times.

MS. CLARK: You don't recall discussing the timing of the events on June the 12th with Mr. Mandel?

MS. AARONSON: We had--I don't recall specifically going through beat by beat point of that evening with him. We had a very surface conversation about the night. We were talking--throwing around a lot of different conversation, but I can't tell you verbatim exactly if we sat there and said, so I know I left at this time.

MS. CLARK: Then what did you talk about, Miss Aaronson?

MS. AARONSON: We talked about how it was pretty strange that we had dinner at Mezzaluna, walked by an apartment and a murder took place and it was very weird.

MS. CLARK: On three occasions you spoke to him between June 15th and July the 8th, and all you talked about was, it was pretty strange that you were in the area?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of the question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: We also discussed how Danny had originally didn't want me to call the police because he was frightened. Concerned. Not frightened, but concerned about media attention.

MS. CLARK: And that's all you talked about?

MS. AARONSON: As I said, we did have a conversation about the evening. We discussed the credit card.

MS. CLARK: Can you answer my question yes or no, Miss Aaronson? Is that all you talked about?

THE COURT: Wait. It's argumentative, counsel. Rephrase the question.

MS. CLARK: You've told us now that you talked about his not wanting to come forward to the police and about the fact that you thought it was really strange that you were there in the area on the night in question. Is that all you talked about?

MS. AARONSON: No. I also told you that we talked about the evening, but I can't recall specifics about our conversation about times.

MS. CLARK: Then you do admit now that you talked about times; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: Objection. I object to the form of that question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: As I've said to you, we talked about the evening. I can't tell you about specific times we talked about. So we did talk. I'm not trying to be argumentative with you. I'm sorry. We talked about the evening. We talked about times briefly in reference to the billing. No, we didn't ever say, "I know we left Mezzaluna--" neither one of us said we left the Mezzaluna at a specific time.

MS. CLARK: Did you talk about what time you passed the location of 875 south Bundy?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And how many times did you discuss that?

MS. AARONSON: Once.

MS. CLARK: And was that before or after July the 8th?

MS. AARONSON: That was before July the 8th.

MS. CLARK: And was that after June the 15th?

MS. AARONSON: It was after June 15th.

MS. CLARK: Now, you and he had no romantic interest in each other, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: So on the occasions when you spoke, it was only with reference to your involvement in this case; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: We had other conversation going on because we were friendly with one another, but it was--the point was about this.

MS. CLARK: And are you still friendly with each other?

MS. AARONSON: When we've seen each other on these two occasions, we've been very cordial, yes.

MS. CLARK: When was the last time you called him on the telephone?

MS. AARONSON: Uh, probably June the 15th.

MS. CLARK: Of 1994?

MS. AARONSON: Of 1994.

MS. CLARK: When was the last time he called you?

MS. AARONSON: July the 7th.

MS. CLARK: Of 1994?

MS. AARONSON: Of 1994. I don't recall him calling me since then.

MS. CLARK: During your dinner at the Mezzaluna, would you say you had a good time with him?

MS. AARONSON: We had a nice evening, yes.

MS. CLARK: And prior to the time that you--you had a second conversation with Detective Kilcoyne on July the 8th, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And at that point, you corrected the times and you--with respect to passing by at about 11:00 o'clock, you now stated it was approximately 10:25; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And you did not independently remember that; is that right? You had to talk to a few people before you could remember what time?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And in that regard, you spoke to--in order to confirm the time that you passed by 875 south Bundy, you spoke to the manager of Mezzaluna? You spoke to--is that yes?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: You spoke to Danny Mandel?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: You rewalked the route?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: You spoke to your roommate, Jean Novack?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And did you also speak to your roommate Jennifer Yow?

MS. AARONSON: I didn't really start--I never questioned Jennifer about it. We talked about it throughout the year, but I never specifically questioned her about it.

MS. CLARK: All right. You stated to us that a few minutes after you got home, your roommate Jean Novack got home; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct. Shortly after I got home.

MS. CLARK: Did you look at a clock to see what time she got home?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: So your time there when you say is 10:35 is an estimate; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: It is an estimate. I asked her what time she came home.

MS. CLARK: Now, you've walked the route from the Mezzaluna to your apartment a few times; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: I have.

MS. CLARK: And then you walked it with Defense investigator McKenna and a Mr. Neufeld and you timed it?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: So what is your best estimate at this point?

MS. AARONSON: My best estimate?

MS. CLARK: For the time that you passed by 875 south Bundy.

MS. AARONSON: My best estimate is a little after 10:25.

MS. CLARK: A little after 10:25?

MS. AARONSON: Yeah.

MS. CLARK: And that's an estimate, correct?

MS. AARONSON: It's an estimate.

MS. CLARK: On that night, you did not look at your watch to see what time it was?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered many times.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: All right. You indicated--you indicated that you were walking, as you turned on to Darlington, you saw a couple walking a dog?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: You indicated also that you told that to Detective Kilcoyne in your second interview with him?

MS. AARONSON: I thought I did.

MS. CLARK: You did not find--you indicated earlier that that was not something unusual, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Not at all. I mean correct. It's not unusual.

MS. CLARK: And there are other--is that because a lot of people have dogs in that neighborhood, Miss Aaronson?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And have you heard dogs barking in that neighborhood before?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: So that would not an unusual thing to hear dogs barking there, would it?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: So at approximately--would you estimate for us where you would have been at approximately 10:20?

MS. AARONSON: At approximately 10:20, I would probably be at the intersection of Bundy and Gorham or a little bit right beforehand.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh. And again, that's an estimate; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it is.

MS. CLARK: And that's based on--and the reason that's an estimate, Miss Aaronson, it that it all depends how quickly you were walking; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it does.

MS. CLARK: But as you were walking, were you looking at the walkway to each house to study it and see what you could see up at each house?

MS. AARONSON: No, I wasn't.

MS. CLARK: And you were walking closest to the street, weren't you?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I was.

MS. CLARK: And Danny was walking to your right; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, he was.

MS. CLARK: So he would have been closer to the homes, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And it was pretty dark that night?

MS. AARONSON: Yes. It was a full moon, but yeah. Regular nighttime, whatever light you get from a full moon.

MS. CLARK: So you were not walking down the street attempting to see whether there was blood on the sidewalk, were you?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: Or on any of the walkways?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: And you're not sitting here trying to tell us that there was no body lying at the foot of the steps at 875 south Bundy?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of the question, your Honor. It's argumentative.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question, please.

MS. CLARK: Miss Aaronson, are you telling this jury that there was no one lying at the foot of the steps at 875 south Bundy when you passed by?

MR. COCHRAN: Calls for speculation, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: I have no idea.

MS. CLARK: You just know that you didn't look up there?

MS. AARONSON: Nothing caught my eye.

MS. CLARK: Were you looking up that walkway?

MS. AARONSON: Danny was to my right. I was--so I was looking towards my right if he was talking to me. But I never made a conscious effort to look up that walkway.

MS. CLARK: Or any other walkway?

MS. AARONSON: Only one walkway.

MS. CLARK: And yours?

MS. AARONSON: No. Walkway of homes that I--of town homes that I like on that street I normally pay attention to, which are before hers.

MS. CLARK: So after you passed by those particular town homes, you continued to talk to Mr. Mandel without looking or making any effort to look up the walkways of other houses?

MS. AARONSON: Correct. I was never making an effort to look up any walkways.

MS. CLARK: And as you were walking--as you were walking south on Bundy--well, at 10:20 then, you would have been north of 875 south Bundy, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: Did you see any cars driving northbound on Bundy at that time?

MS. AARONSON: None whatsoever.

MS. CLARK: At any point when you were walking on Bundy, did you see any cars driving northbound?

MS. AARONSON: Very unusual, but none whatsoever. It's normally a very busy street.

MS. CLARK: Okay. And when you passed by the location of 875 south Bundy and proceeded through the intersection of Dorothy and Bundy, did you notice a big white truck parked on the west side of Bundy?

MS. AARONSON: I never noticed any cars trucked on the street. I mean cars parked on the street.

MS. CLARK: And you were walking closest to the street; were you not?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you didn't see any white--big white truck parked in front of 875 south Bundy?

MR. COCHRAN: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.

THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. I didn't mean that other end of the objection. Proceed. Rephrase the question.

MS. CLARK: Okay. Do you recall seeing any big white truck parked in front of 875 south Bundy as you passed by that location on the west side of the street?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: What cars do you remember seeing parked in front of 875 south Bundy, if any?

MR. COCHRAN: Assumes facts not in evidence.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.

MS. CLARK: How does that assume a fact not in evidence?

THE COURT: Do you recall if there were any there? The question assumes that there were.

MS. CLARK: I said--

THE COURT: Just rephrase the question.

MS. CLARK: All right.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall seeing any cars parked in front of 875 south Bundy as you walked down that street?

MS. AARONSON: I don't recall seeing any cars at all.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall seeing a man walking a dog northbound on Bundy between Darlington and Dorothy?

MS. AARONSON: I don't recall seeing anyone walking on that part of the street at all.

MS. CLARK: And that would have been--between Darlington and Dorothy would have been south of the intersection of Bundy and Dorothy, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you don't recall seeing a man walking a dog in that location?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. CLARK: Is that no?

MS. AARONSON: No, I don't.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall seeing any women standing on a porch at 918 south Bundy?

MR. COCHRAN: Assumes facts not in evidence, that she knows where 918 is. Object to that question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: No, I don't recall seeing anybody.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall seeing anyone standing out on porches as you walked down Bundy?

MS. AARONSON: No, I don't. No, I didn't.

MS. CLARK: Do you recall seeing any white or Hispanic man standing at an angry stance in front of 875 South Bundy as you walked down the street?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: And you did not hear any dogs barking that night, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: Now, you indicated to us I believe that Jennifer Yow got home at 11:00 o'clock?

MR. COCHRAN: Misstates the testimony.

MS. CLARK: Is that right?

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: A little bit before 11:00 o'clock.

MS. CLARK: A little bit before 11:00. And again, I'm going to refer you to People's 495. If you would, look at that last sentence. "At 11--" it says 2325. That would be 11:25. "At 11:25 to 11:30, witness' roommate, Jennifer Yow, returned home from Manhattan Beach and remarked about the time." Do you recall telling that to Detective Kilcoyne back in June of 1994?

MS. AARONSON: I gave him the name Jean Novack.

MS. CLARK: And do you recall--you don't recall giving him the name Jennifer Yow?

MS. AARONSON: I told him that I had another roommate Jennifer and she came home afterwards. But I didn't say anything about time with Jennifer.

MS. CLARK: You did not tell him--you did not tell him that Jennifer Yow got home at 11:25 to 11:30?

MS. AARONSON: No. I told him that she came home at around--I'm getting confused.

MS. CLARK: This is in June of `94.

MS. AARONSON: June 15th.

MS. CLARK: Yes.

MS. AARONSON: Sorry. June 15th, first statement, when I was not sure about times, yes, I did tell him around that time.

MS. CLARK: So that statement is correct as it reflected your statement to him in June of 1994?

MS. AARONSON: The statement is correct with a very important statement missing.

MS. CLARK: Which is?

MS. AARONSON: That I didn't know about any of my times and I was calling him without checking anything.

MS. CLARK: All right. But that is what you said to him?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it is.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: And you've reviewed the July 8th statement; have you not?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I have, briefly.

MS. CLARK: I'd like you to read it again and tell us where it shows in this statement that you watched the 11:00 o'clock news that night.

MR. COCHRAN: Just a moment, your Honor. Object to the form of that question.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. AARONSON: Without even reading it, could probably--

MR. COCHRAN: Just a moment.

THE COURT: Sustained. Ask your new question.

MS. CLARK: It reflects in that statement you never said that you were watching the 11:00 o'clock news that night; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: It was asked.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: No, it isn't.

MS. CLARK: You did not offer that information to the detective; is that correct?

MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of that question. Argumentative.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: No, I didn't.

MS. CLARK: You stayed home after Mr. Mandel left; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it is.

MS. CLARK: And I believe you testified earlier that he left shortly after 11:00 o'clock?

MS. AARONSON: Shortly before 11:00 o'clock, right when Jennifer came home.

MS. CLARK: Uh-huh. And you then watched the news; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MS. CLARK: And you never heard any dogs barking at any time that night; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Not in my apartment, no.

MS. CLARK: And you never heard any police activity any time that night, did you?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MS. CLARK: As a matter of fact, you didn't find out that anything had happened unusual in the neighborhood until later during the day of June the 13th; isn't that right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.

THE COURT: Mr. Cochran.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly, your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: Miss Aaronson, a few additional questions if I might. Now, you were on a date with Mr. Mandel. And was there any rush for you to leave Mezzaluna and get back home that night?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you have a time frame which would make you take the absolute shortest route home?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: In fact, you had a conversation with him--

MS. CLARK: Objection. Leading.

MR. COCHRAN: No, I'm not. May I finish the question, please?

THE COURT: Finish the question.

MR. COCHRAN: In fact, you had a conversation, did you not, wherein the subject matter of whether you'd take the long route or the short route came up; isn't that correct?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you have a conversation with Mr. Mandel about which route you would take home?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, we did.

MR. COCHRAN: And you talked about which way you would take; is that right?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. CLARK: Asked and answered.

MS. AARONSON: Yes, we did.

MR. COCHRAN: And then what did you--which way did you decide to go?

MS. AARONSON: The longer way.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And you didn't have anybody waiting at home for you to come in any particular time, did you?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you have anybody at home waiting for you that night?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, in that connection, Miss Clark asked you some questions about the cost of dinners. Have you been out--did you frequently go out last summer in the west side restaurants and ever pay for them yourself for two people?

MS. AARONSON: Last summer?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes. In the summer of `94.

MS. AARONSON: I just got my job then. So--

MR. COCHRAN: So at that time, you were going Dutch treat or otherwise, right?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you have any idea about the prices of restaurants on the west side?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I do.

MR. COCHRAN: And do they tend to be fairly expensive?

MS. AARONSON: They tend to be overpriced.

MR. COCHRAN: And on that particular evening, as I understand it, you had some pasta; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: We both had a pasta.

MR. COCHRAN: And you both had cappuccino; is that correct?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: We both had a pasta, we both had ice tea, we both had cappuccino and I don't recall if we had dessert.

MR. COCHRAN: Do you recall whether or not you had bottled water or not?

MS. AARONSON: We didn't have--I don't think we had bottled water. I don't recall.

MR. COCHRAN: So at any rate, you had seen the receipt, and the amount paid was $47.40, right?

MS. AARONSON: Uh-huh.

MR. COCHRAN: You've got to answer yes.

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it is. Sorry.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, when you--you've described for us that when you first called Detective Kilcoyne, you told him that you weren't sure on the times; isn't that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And then thereafter, after you did the things that you've told us about, you had a second conversation with Detective Kilcoyne, reinterview if you will, whereby you spelled out for him the times as best you understood them; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: And, your Honor, I would like to mark as Defendant's next exhibit in order the 7-8-94 statement form of Ellen Aaronson. I'd like to show it to the witness and then mark it if the Court pleases.

THE COURT: Yes. 435. 1235.

MR. COCHRAN: This is for Defense, your Honor. Defense?

THE COURT: 1235.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

(Deft's 1235 for id = statement of Ellen Aaronson)

MR. COCHRAN: While I'm here, let me get two--let me get one to save some time. And I would like to mark the second one, interview of 9-12-94 as 1236 I guess, your Honor.

THE COURT: 1236.

(Deft's 1236 for id = interview statement of 9-12-94)

MR. COCHRAN: I'm going to show you first of all 1235, and I want you to take a look at that and see if you at least recognize that as a supposed telephonic--

THE COURT: These are the July 8th and the September 12th statements?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: I want you to take a look at 1235 and see whether or not that is a report written by Detective Kilcoyne as a result of a second telephonic conversation with you on or about July 8th, 1994.

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And at that time, that was after you had come down here for the preliminary hearing; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And you talked to him on the phone?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And if I were to put this on the elmo--I want to ask you some questions about it.

MS. AARONSON: Okay.

MR. COCHRAN: And ask you whether or not that report is accurate.

MR. COCHRAN: May I, your Honor?

THE COURT: You may. Have you blacked out the appropriate--

MR. COCHRAN: Yes. On ours, we're always aware of the privacy, your Honor. Would you place that--

MS. CLARK: Your Honor, I would ask the Court to strike the editorial.

MR. COCHRAN: It's true.

(Brief pause.)

MR. COCHRAN: Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about this report that's now on the elmo, and the addresses all have been blocked out. Following your first interview with Detective Kilcoyne, did you telephone Mezzaluna restaurant in an attempt to verify the time frame?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And that after that, you spoke to the restaurant manager--is that the person you call John?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: You learned that the time on the restaurant cash register is one hour behind; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: That the witness was informed by Danny Mandel that their receipt was time stamped 8:55 P.M., which was 2055 hours, and that you now realized that your bill was actually paid at 9:55 or 2155 hours; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And that when you looked at your wristwatch, it was 2150 hours, that is 9:50 and not 2250 hours?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. And the only time, as I understand your testimony, that you looked at your wristwatch that evening is when you're still at Mezzaluna at about the time you were told to close up; is that right?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Leading.

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it is.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. That the report goes on to say: "The witness earlier stated she looked at her wristwatch as she walked past the crime scene at 2300 hours. The witness now recalls being at the restaurant when she looked at her watch, and it was 2150 hours." You told Kilcoyne that, didn't you?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And that's correct; is it not?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it's correct.

MR. COCHRAN: That you--did you indicate also in this and tell Detective Kilcoyne that you learned that your second roommate, Jean Novack, arrived home at about 2240 hours on June 12th, 1994, returning from a party; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: That's the time I said. My recollection of her telling me the time is at 2235.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. 2235, 2240, but she returned home about that time?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. That you were home, "The witness was home prior to Novack's arrival"; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Can you move this up so I--

MR. COCHRAN: Oh, I'm sorry. Can you see it now? That--let me go with it again. "Witness also learned that the second roommate, Jean Novack, arrived home at--"

MS. AARONSON: Uh-huh.

MR. COCHRAN: "2240 hours on 6-12-94, returning from a party." All right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And that--did you tell him also, "The witness was home prior to Novack's arrival"?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And were you home prior to her arrival?

MS. AARONSON: I was home prior to her arrival.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you tell the detective that you stated that you did not have any alcohol with dinner that night?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you tell the detective that you stated that after paying the bill at 2155 hours, at 9:55, "She and her date sat and talked for 10 or 15 minutes before leaving"? Did you tell him that?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that accurate?

MS. AARONSON: Very.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. "And witness and Mandel walked west on the north sidewalk of Gorham Avenue to Bundy drive and (Witness) decided with Mandel to take the long route." Is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: The long route home rather than south on Westgate; is that right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And you told the detective that, didn't you?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And that was true; was it not?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it is.

MR. COCHRAN: "That the two continued to walk leisurely southbound on Bundy drive on the west sidewalk to Darlington Avenue." Is that correct?

THE COURT: I think we need page 2 here.

MR. COCHRAN: Oh. Thank you, your Honor.

MR. COCHRAN: Can you see that?

MS. AARONSON: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Is that yes?

MS. AARONSON: Yes. Sorry.

MS. CLARK: I think counsel neglected to complete the sentence that was being read, "Rather than south on Westgate Avenue."

MR. COCHRAN: Let me make sure that I've completed it. Mr. Harris, can you put the first page back up?

THE COURT: Mr. Harris, can you back up?

MR. COCHRAN: Just for a second, bring it back, turn it back over.

MR. COCHRAN: Let me ask you this. "That the witness decided with Mandel to take the long route--"

MR. COCHRAN: Now turn it over.

MR. COCHRAN: "--home rather than south on Westgate Avenue." Is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: I thought I covered that.

MS. CLARK: Counsel, maybe you want to block out Mr. Mandel's--

MR. COCHRAN: The bottom.

MR. COCHRAN: Let me continue on. "The two continued to walk leisurely southbound on Bundy drive, the west sidewalk to Darlington." Is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And that's the route you've shown us here; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: "That again--" I'll wait for Mr. Harris to do that. "Again, the witness recalled that nothing unusual occurred to gain her attention." Is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: "The witness did not hear any dogs barking or see any vehicles."

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: So indicated? "Witness stated she did not stop in front of Nicole Simpson's residence or look down the Simpson walkway." Is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. "Witness said there was no reason to stop on the walk home."

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. "That witness estimates she passed Nicole Simpson's residence approximately 2220 to 2225 hours." Is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: And that you went on to tell that: "Witness reported that Dan Mandel could possibly obtain a copy of his credit card receipt." Is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, when you talked to Detective Kilcoyne on July 8th, again, you had told him you had to get the time frames squared away, you tried to be accurate; did you not?

MS. AARONSON: As accurate as possible.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And then later on on September 12, 1994 at about 9:15 in the morning, you had occasion to speak with Miss Marcia Clark and with Detective Vannatter; is that correct?

MS. CLARK: Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: And I would like now to refer to Defendant's--I think it's 1236, your Honor. I'll ask him to put 1236 up, your Honor, for identification. It will be up in just a second.

THE COURT: Mr. Harris, can you back out just a bit? That's fine. Thank you.

MR. COCHRAN: Can you see that on the monitor?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. I'll ask you some questions about this statement written by Detective Vannatter, the interview with Vannatter and Clark, all right? Did you indicate to them when you met them in this building that you related the same information as given on the previous interviews except to give the exact direction she and your blind date, Dan Mandel, had taken while walking home, is that correct, gave them the exact route that you took here today?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: That you told them that you left the Mezzaluna restaurant at approximately 2200 to 2205 hours, like 10:00, 10:05 hours; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: That you walked south on Gorham to Bundy where they walked south on the west side of Bundy; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: Stated there were very few vehicles on Bundy and you did not observe any other persons walking. Did you tell him that?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And was that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: That when you arrived at Darlington--Darlington was your street; was it not?

MS. AARONSON: Darlington is my street.

MR. COCHRAN: "That they observed two persons walking a medium size short-haired dog." Did you tell him that?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that what you told us here today?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that accurate?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: "They then walked east on Darlington on the north side and stopped halfway between the corner and her residence. She stated she asked Danny if she wanted--if he wanted to come up to her apartment. Danny looked at his watch." Is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yeah.

MR. COCHRAN: "That she believed at that time it was 2228 to 2229 hours," 10:28 to 10:29 hours; is that correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MR. COCHRAN: "She stated her apartment was approximately a four-minute walk from the murder scene and that they passed that location at approximately 2225," or 10:25. Is that what you indicated to Miss Clark and Detective Vannatter?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And was that accurate?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: "She stated she did not hear nor see anything when they walked by, not hearing any dogs bark." Is that--did you make that statement?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And is that accurate?

MS. AARONSON: Completely.

MR. COCHRAN: Now, as you were walking along Bundy towards Darlington, did you ever at any time see any bloody paw prints on that sidewalk, the direction which you were heading?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: As you walked past 875 south Bundy, did you ever hear the sound of a gate clanging at all?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you ever hear a man's voice say, "Hey, hey, hey"?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Did you ever hear the sound of two voices as you walked past there?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Leading.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: I never heard anything.

MR. COCHRAN: Was quiet--was anything ever called to your attention as you walked past?

MS. AARONSON: Nothing was called to my attention.

MR. COCHRAN: And when you called the police, it's your best recollection that was on June 14th; is that correct?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Leading. Asked and answered.

MR. COCHRAN: I'll restate it.

MR. COCHRAN: What was the date to your best recollection when you called the detective the first time?

MS. AARONSON: Tuesday. So whatever that Tuesday is, which I think is the 14th.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. If Sunday was the 12th--

MS. AARONSON: It was the 14th.

MR. COCHRAN: --then it was June the 14th, right? All right. That's your best recollection, right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: And when you were calling and in your subsequent calls, why were you calling the police?

MS. AARONSON: I thought it was my civic duty to call the police.

MR. COCHRAN: And you didn't know O.J. Simpson, you didn't know his involvement or anything in this case, did you, at that time?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Asked and answered. Leading.

MR. COCHRAN: I didn't ask that.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: You weren't trying to help O.J. Simpson, were you?

MS. AARONSON: I knew that--I knew that he was involved, but I was not trying to help him.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. You called because of why?

MS. AARONSON: Because the news reports were saying that at the time that I was around there, there was--

MS. CLARK: Objection. Hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled. This is just limited to the purpose--not that what the news report said was true, but merely to explain why Miss Aaronson called the police. You can finish your answer.

MS. AARONSON: Okay. The news reports were saying that there was a dog barking, that there were lights on a Bronco, I think they said the hazards were on, the lights were blinking. At the point that I was at that street--on the street, there was nothing. It was an extremely quiet evening, out of a movie. I thought it was weird and that's why I called the police, just to give the information. If they wanted to know what other people thought about the street, that's why I called. I honestly never thought it would get this far.

MR. COCHRAN: All right. And so in calling the police and in talking to us here today, have you told us the truth about what happened that evening?

MS. AARONSON: Yes.

MR. COCHRAN: You weren't trying to help one side or the other, were you?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Just tell the truth?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MS. CLARK: Objection. Asked and answered, leading.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very much.

THE COURT: Miss Clark, anything else?

MS. CLARK: Yes.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

MS. CLARK: Miss Aaronson, very briefly. Did you--is it your testimony that you told Detective Kilcoyne about seeing a couple walking a dog on Darlington?

MR. COCHRAN: I object, your Honor. Beyond the scope of redirect examination.

THE COURT: Overruled. It was in the statement.

MS. AARONSON: I'm getting so confused.

MS. CLARK: Do you remember the question?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I do remember the question. And I also know that I--I said to you that I do think that I said something to him. I don't recall when I said something about the dog.

MS. CLARK: Okay. You reviewed--

MS. AARONSON: I haven't read everything to tell you the truth to remember everything that I wrote down--said.

MS. CLARK: You reviewed the statement you gave to Detective Kilcoyne on July the 8th, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Yes. Very briefly. I just did.

MS. CLARK: And the statement you're looking at now that's up on the elmo, it's Defense--

THE COURT: 1236.

MR. COCHRAN: 1236 I believe.

MS. CLARK: --1236, that was not a statement given to Detective Kilcoyne, was it?

MS. AARONSON: No.

MR. COCHRAN: Objection to the form--object to the from of the question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: Objection to the form of the question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. CLARK: This was a statement that you gave to Detective Vannatter in my presence, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And you reviewed the statement you gave to Detective Kilcoyne on June the 15th; have you not?

MS. AARONSON: Very briefly, yes, I have.

MS. CLARK: Again, People's 495, that statement, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MS. CLARK: That statement makes no mention of having seen a couple walking a dog, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: And the July 8th statement also that you gave to Detective Kilcoyne makes no statement of having seen a couple walking a dog?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

MS. CLARK: So would it be fair to say that you--the first time you mentioned to a police officer seeing a couple walking a dog on Darlington was in September when you spoke to Detective Vannatter?

MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: It's a fact not in evidence.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: It's fair.

MS. CLARK: And the statement you see now before you of June the 15th that you gave to Detective Kilcoyne, can you tell us--first of all, based on what you told him, was it an accurate representation of what you said where he wrote: "Witness and her date walked to her apartment passing the crime scene location at 11:00 o'clock or 2300 hours"?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: Can you repeat the question? I'm sorry.

MS. CLARK: Based on what you told Detective Kilcoyne on June the 15th, is the statement that where he puts, quote: "Witness and her date walked to her apartment passing the crime scene location at 11:00 o'clock or 2300 hours," is that a fair statement, representation of what you told him?

MS. AARONSON: It is a fair statement of representation of what I told him on the 15th.

MS. CLARK: And that you knew the time because you looked at your wristwatch and you were surprised at the hour. You did tell him that also?

MS. AARONSON: There's a sentence in there missing.

MS. CLARK: That that was at 10 to 11:00, correct?

MS. AARONSON: That--yes. That I looked at my watch at the restaurant at 10 to 11:00.

MS. CLARK: All right. Nevertheless, you did tell him that you looked at your watch and you were surprised at the hour, correct?

MS. AARONSON: Correct. That it was 10 to.

MS. CLARK: And it is also correct and accurate then when he states that at 11:25 to 11:30, your roommate Jennifer Yow came home from Manhattan Beach and remarked about the time. You did tell him that?

MR. COCHRAN: Asked and answered.

MS. AARONSON: I don't recall telling him the time 11:25, 11:30, but that's what's written down there. So I--I understand why he wrote it.

MS. CLARK: And he wrote it because you estimated that about a half hour after you got home, your roommate arrived?

MS. AARONSON: Right.

MS. CLARK: So that would be a fair and accurate representation of what you told him?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it is.

MS. CLARK: I have nothing further.

MR. COCHRAN: Just this last question.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

MR. COCHRAN: With regard--so we're absolutely clear, you told Detective Kilcoyne the first time you made your statement you weren't sure on the times; isn't that right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, I did.

MR. COCHRAN: And so the statement Miss Clark had up there was the time when you first talked to the detective and weren't clear on the times, right?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it is.

MS. CLARK: Objection. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: The statements which I had you read and just read for this jury were after you checked the times and were clear on the times, right?

MS. AARONSON: Correct.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MS. CLARK: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained. That was leading, counsel.

MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Let me--

MR. COCHRAN: What's the difference in the statements that I had you read for this jury just a few moments ago?

MS. CLARK: Objection. Objection. That's for the jury.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. AARONSON: The statement I read that you showed me is the statement I gave to the police after I checked all of my times and after I was positive with what time they actually--everything took place.

MR. COCHRAN: And were those accurate times?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, they are.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that the truth?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it is.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that what happened that night?

MS. AARONSON: Yes, it is.

MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very much.

MS. AARONSON: You're welcome.

THE COURT: Miss Clark, anything else?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MS. CLARK: Nothing further.

THE COURT: All right. Miss Aaronson, thank you very much. You're excused.

MS. AARONSON: Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Next witness. Would you hand the exhibit back to Miss Clark, please. Thank you.

MR. SHAPIRO: We would like to call Francesca Harman, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Francesca Harman.

THE COURT: And, Miss Robertson, let's--all right. Hold on just a second. Mrs. Robertson.

Francesca Harman, called as a witness by and for the Defendant, was sworn and examined and testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Raise your right hand, please. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this Court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

MS. HARMAN: I do.

THE CLERK: Please have a seat in the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

MS. HARMAN: My name is Francesca Harman.

THE CLERK: May we have the spelling, please?

MS. HARMAN: I can't--I can't hear the question.

THE COURT: Could you spell the name, please.

MS. HARMAN: The first or the last?

THE COURT: Both.

MS. HARMAN: First, Francesca, F-R-A-N-C-E-S-C-A, last name, Harman, H-A-R-M-A-N.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO

MR. SHAPIRO: Good afternoon, Miss Harman.

MS. HARMAN: Good afternoon.

MR. SHAPIRO: Are you a little nervous this afternoon?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I am.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you ever testified before?

MS. HARMAN: No, I have not.

MR. SHAPIRO: We're going to ask just a very few questions of you this afternoon. Were you in the Brentwood area on June the 12th, 1994?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I was.

MR. SHAPIRO: And is there any reason why that date is important to you and you remember it?

MS. HARMAN: That was the date of a double homicide in Brentwood.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where were you in the early evening hours of June the 12th?

MS. HARMAN: I was at 11908 Dorothy Street at a dinner party.

MR. SHAPIRO: Where was--who was this dinner party being held by?

MS. HARMAN: It was being held by two--one colleague of mine who I work with, and then another colleague was also there and then an upstairs neighbor.

MR. SHAPIRO: What type of work do you do?

MS. HARMAN: I'm a convention service manager at a local hotel.

MR. SHAPIRO: Which hotel is that?

MS. HARMAN: It's the--

THE COURT: Hold on. Is that necessary?

MR. SHAPIRO: Thought they wanted to get a plug for the hotel. No, it is not, your Honor.

MR. SHAPIRO: And at what time did you arrive for this dinner party?

MS. HARMAN: Somewhere between 6:00 o'clock and 7:00 o'clock. The dinner party was called for 6:00 and I arrived I would say about 6:35.

MR. SHAPIRO: And what time did you leave the dinner party?

MS. HARMAN: 10:15.

MR. SHAPIRO: How do you know the time?

MS. HARMAN: There's a clock on a credenza by the doorway when I left, and so you can't help but see the clock as you leave.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you have work the next morning?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And what time do you work the next morning?

MS. HARMAN: I had to be at work at 8:30 A.M.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you have anything of an alcoholic beverage to drink during this dinner party?

MS. HARMAN: No, I did not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you go by yourself?

MS. HARMAN: I drove there by myself, yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you leave by yourself?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what happened when you left this apartment dinner party?

MS. HARMAN: Do you want me to point?

MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, please, if that would be helpful to you.

MS. HARMAN: Dorothy Street and this street is Westgate.

MR. SHAPIRO: Do we need that microphone, your Honor?

THE COURT: No. As long as the jurors can hear.

MS. HARMAN: Can you hear? Anyway, this is Westgate, this is Dorothy and 11908 is the corner apartment right here (Indicating). My car was parked right in front of the building facing east. So when I left, I got in my car. I had to take the Club off, turn the ignition on, pull out of the space and then go to this corner here and pull a U-turn and come back down Dorothy to the stop sign here at Dorothy and Bundy.

MR. SHAPIRO: Let's just stop there for a moment. First, you said you had to take the Club off.

MS. HARMAN: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: What is that?

MS. HARMAN: The Club is a metal contraption so that my car isn't stolen.

MR. SHAPIRO: And about how long did it take you from the time you last saw the clock at 10:15 in the apartment to the time you actually started your car on Dorothy?

MS. HARMAN: It's probably about two, two minutes before I left, did my pleasantries, walked from--the apartment's in the back of the building, and I had to walk to the front of the building, go down the stairs out of the building to my car and then in the car, I do all, you know, take the Club off.

MR. SHAPIRO: What was the traffic conditions like on Dorothy?

MS. HARMAN: Light.

MR. SHAPIRO: Was there any car--any traffic going on that you remember?

MS. HARMAN: No. Dorothy is a little bit of a narrow street. So it's--you have to be really conscious of cars coming because otherwise, you're going to run right into each other.

MR. SHAPIRO: What about the noise on that street? Can you describe that for the jury?

MS. HARMAN: When I was in my car here coming back down, I didn't hear any kind of noise that I thought was unusual in any way (Indicating).

MR. SHAPIRO: Was it a quiet evening?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, it was.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you got to the corner of Dorothy and Bundy--

MS. HARMAN: Uh-huh.

MR. SHAPIRO: --do you have a way of estimating what time it was?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I do.

MR. SHAPIRO: And how can you do that?

MS. HARMAN: In my car, I have a digital display for my radio and all the displays are in the same area. The digital display is broken, and the only way I can tell what station, radio station I'm on is if I stick my finger on it and look. And so by looking, the clock is right above it, and it was 10:20 because I had to find--I was looking to see what station I was on.

MR. SHAPIRO: How fast were you driving as you got to Dorothy and Bundy?

MS. HARMAN: There, probably about 10 miles an hour.

MR. SHAPIRO: When you got to the corner of the intersection, could you describe what the conditions were at that location to the jury as far as traffic and noise in the area?

MS. HARMAN: I didn't think that there was anything out of the unusual at the corner. When I got there, I stopped at the stop sign and then I rolled the car out a little bit into the street and I checked both ways just to be sure nothing was coming, and I made a right turn going north up towards Montana.

MR. SHAPIRO: You were headed home?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I was.

MR. SHAPIRO: At some time later, did it come to your attention that you had passed the condominium where Nicole Brown Simpson lived and was murdered?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor. Leading.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.

MR. SHAPIRO: Have you ever learned where Nicole Brown Simpson lived?

MR. DARDEN: Hearsay, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer the question.

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I have learned where she lives.

MR. SHAPIRO: And do you have any knowledge as to whether you passed that location?

MS. HARMAN: On the night of the murder? I didn't know that she lived there.

MR. SHAPIRO: Subsequently, did you come to learn where she lived?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I did.

MR. SHAPIRO: And subsequently, did you come to discover whether or not you had passed that location?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I did. It was that Tuesday, June 14th, when I was told about what happened, and then I got into a discussion with young lady that held the party exactly what we were doing, and then my gosh, is it possible we were having dinner when this was happening and consequently watching TV and seeing pictures. So that's--

MR. SHAPIRO: Can you point out for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury where the condominium that you later found that Nicole Brown Simpson resided at was located?

MS. HARMAN: This one here (Indicating).

MR. SHAPIRO: Pointing to the red--

MS. HARMAN: The red one.

MR. SHAPIRO: --stamp.

MS. HARMAN: Uh-huh.

MR. SHAPIRO: About how far fast were you driving when you went past that location?

MS. HARMAN: Well, I had been at a stop. So zero, and then going up to five, maybe 10 miles by the time I passed it and then accelerating to get home.

MR. SHAPIRO: Was there any traffic as you passed that location?

MS. HARMAN: Just traffic that I would think was normal on the street.

MR. SHAPIRO: Was there any noise that was unusual?

MS. HARMAN: I didn't hear any noise.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you hear the sound of a barking dog?

MS. HARMAN: No, I did not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you hear the wailing of a dog?

MS. HARMAN: No, I did not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you hear any argument or loud voices?

MS. HARMAN: No, I did not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you hear the sounds of something that would resemble a fight?

MS. HARMAN: No.

MR. DARDEN: Objection. This is leading, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. HARMAN: No, I did not.

MR. SHAPIRO: You then proceeded home?

MS. HARMAN: Then I proceeded home. Went to Montana here and I turned left and I took Montana all the way home to Santa Monica (Indicating).

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you notice any white vehicle in the area between--on Bundy between Dorothy and Montana?

MS. HARMAN: No, I did not.

MR. SHAPIRO: Thank you. Nothing further.

THE COURT: Mr. Darden. We'll go to 3:15.

MR. DARDEN: Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN

MR. DARDEN: Good afternoon.

MS. HARMAN: Good afternoon.

MR. DARDEN: Did you happen to drive to the area behind--located behind Nicole Brown's condo that night?

MS. HARMAN: Uh, is that this area here (Indicating)?

MR. DARDEN: Well, you tell me. Do you know where she lived?

MS. HARMAN: No. No. I mean, I didn't know that was her house until after the fact, and I would have no reason to be on this out--this street here.

MR. DARDEN: So you don't know whether or not there was a white Ford Bronco parked behind that structure at 10:20 or not; is that correct?

MS. HARMAN: That's correct.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Are you being--or rather, were you kept in a room today as you waited to testify?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I was.

MR. DARDEN: Were you kept there with other Defense witnesses?

MS. HARMAN: Could you be more clear on the question, please?

MR. DARDEN: Well--

MR. SHAPIRO: Your Honor, may we approach?

MR. DARDEN: Were you in a room today with--

THE COURT: Proceed.

MR. DARDEN: --with Ellen Aaronson, a young woman wearing a beige or taupe blazer?

MS. HARMAN: Very, very, very briefly.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Did you see her on Bundy, walking on Bundy Avenue that night at 10:20?

MS. HARMAN: I didn't notice her.

MR. DARDEN: In fact, you have stated before, have you not, that you did not see any pedestrians on the street on Bundy?

MS. HARMAN: That's correct.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So you didn't see Ellen Aaronson?

MS. HARMAN: No, I didn't.

MR. DARDEN: And you didn't see Danny Mandel?

MS. HARMAN: No.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And it's your testimony that you were on Bundy at 10:20 P.M.; is that right?

MS. HARMAN: I was at the corner of Dorothy and Bundy at 10:20.

MR. DARDEN: And then you made a right turn?

MS. HARMAN: Then I made a right turn.

MR. DARDEN: You were driving north at that point; is that correct?

MS. HARMAN: Correct.

MR. DARDEN: You drove north on Bundy?

MS. HARMAN: Correct.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't see anybody walking?

MS. HARMAN: I didn't notice anything that was unusual.

MR. DARDEN: Now, as you drove north on Bundy, Nicole Brown's condo would have been to your left; is that correct?

MS. HARMAN: Correct.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You're driving on the right-hand side of the street?

MS. HARMAN: Correct.

MR. DARDEN: The condo is on the opposite side of the street; is that correct?

MS. HARMAN: Correct.

MR. DARDEN: Is there a yellow line dividing the middle of the street?

MS. HARMAN: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And so I take it then as you drove north on Bundy drive, you were looking at the road?

MS. HARMAN: Correct.

MR. DARDEN: You were looking ahead?

MS. HARMAN: That's correct.

MR. DARDEN: You weren't looking to your left across the street at Bundy?

MS. HARMAN: I would have no reason to.

MR. DARDEN: Have you been back to the area near 875 south Bundy?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I have.

MR. DARDEN: And why did you go back?

MS. HARMAN: I have friends that live on Dorothy. I have friends that live on Darlington. I have friends that live on Kiowa. So I'm always coming down Bundy.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, as you drove north on Bundy, you had your radio on?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I did.

MR. DARDEN: And what kind of car were you driving?

MS. HARMAN: Nissan 300Z.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Convertible?

MS. HARMAN: No.

MR. DARDEN: Hard top?

MS. HARMAN: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: Was the top on?

MS. HARMAN: Yes.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't hear any noise that sounded like fighting?

MS. HARMAN: No, I did not.

MR. DARDEN: And you couldn't hear any noise that sounded like fighting because you were listening to the radio; is that correct?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MS. HARMAN: I had the radio on. I didn't hear any noise.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You didn't hear any scuffling?

MS. HARMAN: I did not.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't hear anyone yell anything?

MS. HARMAN: No, I did not.

MR. DARDEN: And you couldn't hear those things because you had the window rolled up; is that correct?

MS. HARMAN: No. The window is actually cracked because I always open the window for circulation. So the window was open.

MR. DARDEN: So the window was cracked?

MS. HARMAN: Uh-huh.

MR. DARDEN: Is that yes?

MS. HARMAN: That's correct.

MR. DARDEN: The window wasn't completely open?

MS. HARMAN: No, it was not.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, having gone back and looked at the location at 875 south Bundy, have you noticed that there's a very, very large palm tree almost directly in front of the walkway at 875 south Bundy?

MS. HARMAN: There's a lot of things in front of the walkway right now. There's gates and yellow tape and trees and bushes.

MR. DARDEN: Well, do you recall seeing those trees and bushes at that location when you passed it that night?

MS. HARMAN: The trees and bushes I saw would have been as I turned right, and the headlights fell on the trees and bushes, and then as the car came north, I would see the street. So that would be the trees and the bushes that I saw.

MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, I have a photograph. May it be marked--

THE COURT: You want to show that to Mr. Shapiro?

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

MR. DARDEN: In fact, I would like to show Mr. Shapiro four photographs if I may.

MR. SHAPIRO: I'd ask the Court to cut the feed on two of the four photos.

MR. DARDEN: I may not show all of them.

THE COURT: All right. Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: People's next in order, your Honor.

THE COURT: 496.

MR. DARDEN: You won't have to cut the feed for this one.

(Peo's 496 for id = photograph)

MR. DARDEN: Let me show you a photograph if I may, People's 496.

THE COURT: Use the monitor.

MS. HARMAN: Right here?

THE COURT: Mr. Darden.

MR. DARDEN: That's Bundy drive?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, it is.

MR. DARDEN: And you made a right turn at that intersection and turned right; is that correct?

MS. HARMAN: That's correct.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And do you see a bright light there in the background near one of the structures?

MS. HARMAN: To the right by--to the left of that palm tree?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I do.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And is that what you would have seen as you made that right turn onto Bundy?

MS. HARMAN: Actually, my headlights don't cut--they cut off a little bit before that. I see that--when I did the trip again, my headlights cut across onto that back gate and then the arched gate and then come across the low bushes and come into the street going north. I didn't--they don't go up that high.

MR. DARDEN: They don't go all the way up to 875 south Bundy?

MS. HARMAN: No, no. You mean the actual entranceway?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MS. HARMAN: No, they didn't. They cut off--I mean, as I'm turning this way (Indicating), if you see that arched gate, they shine on the arched gate, then they shine on the low bushes and then they come across and I'm I headed north on to--north on Bundy.

THE COURT: And when the witness indicated turning, she indicated a turning motion to the right.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. So, in other words, you couldn't see the gate at Bundy?

MS. HARMAN: The gate in question for the murders?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MS. HARMAN: No, I did not.

MR. DARDEN: You say that you re-drove the route?

MS. HARMAN: Yes, I have re-driven the route.

MR. DARDEN: Did you do that with the Defense or did it on your own?

MS. HARMAN: I did it with the Defense.

MR. DARDEN: Did you tell them that your lights didn't hit the gate at 875 south Bundy?

MS. HARMAN: I didn't have to. They were in the car with me.

MR. DARDEN: And yet, you're here to testify anyway; is that correct?

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. DARDEN: Next photograph, your Honor, People's 497. You won't have to cut the feed.

(Peo's 497 for id = photograph)

MR. DARDEN: Now, looking at that photograph, People's 497, do you see a large tree there?

MS. HARMAN: The tree in the foreground?

MR. DARDEN: Yes.

MS. HARMAN: Okay. I see that large palm tree in the foreground.

MR. DARDEN: And is that tree directly in front of 875 south Bundy?

MS. HARMAN: It looks to be from this picture.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And as you passed the 875 south Bundy location going north on Bundy, had you looked over to your left, you would have seen that palm tree; is that correct?

MS. HARMAN: I guess I would if I had looked.

MR. SHAPIRO: Objection. Calls for speculation.

MS. HARMAN: I didn't look.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't see three Hispanic males in ski masks on Bundy, did you?

MS. HARMAN: No, I did not.

MR. DARDEN: Can I have one moment, your Honor? I'm just about done.

THE COURT: Sure.

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

MR. DARDEN: And I take it that you couldn't hear a dog bark and given the fact that you had the radio on; is that right?

MS. HARMAN: I did not hear a dog barking.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, you testified that you left your friend's house at 10:15?

MS. HARMAN: Correct.

MR. DARDEN: You didn't look at your own watch to determine what time it was when you left?

MS. HARMAN: No. I looked at the desk clock that's on the credenza.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. And is that the credenza located in the kitchen?

MS. HARMAN: There's another clock in the kitchen. There's a stove that has a clock in the middle of it where you usually turn the timer.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. Is that an antique stove in the kitchen?

MS. HARMAN: No. It's a modern apartment building.

MR. DARDEN: Okay. You didn't look at the clock on the stove before you left?

MS. HARMAN: I wasn't in the kitchen. I was--I was near the kitchen. We had cleared the dishes. I looked at that clock, then I--we went back into the living room and then I left with the upstairs neighbor and I looked at that clock as I left because that's by the doorway.

MR. DARDEN: And when you say "That clock"--

MS. HARMAN: It's the desk clock on her credenza.