Grand Jury Testimony - June 22 & 23, 1994


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            1       LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, JUNE 22, 1994
            2                           10:25 A.M.
            3                             -O0O-
            4
            5             (AT THE BEGINNING OF THESE PROCEEDINGS,
            6                 20 GRAND JURORS WERE PRESENT.)
            7
            8         THE FOREPERSON:  THIS HEARING IS NOW IN SESSION.
            9               THE GRAND JURY IS CONTINUING THIS MORNING IN:
           10                      "NAME OF POSSIBLE DEFENDANT:
           11                      "ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON."
           12               THE DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY ARE MARSHA CLARK
           13   AND DAVID CONN.
           14               MADAME SECRETARY?
           15
           16                         (ROLL CALLED.)
           17
           18         THE SECRETARY:  LET THE RECORD REFLECT THERE ARE
           19   TWENTY-ONE GRAND JURORS PRESENT -- EXCUSE ME -- THERE ARE
           20   TWENTY GRAND JURORS PRESENT.
           21         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
           22               YOU MAY CONTINUE.
           23         MS. CLARK:  THANK YOU.
           24               PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO CALL OFFICER RISKE.
           25         THE FOREPERSON:  OFFICER RISKE?
           26         THE WITNESS:  YES, MA'AM.
           27         THE FOREPERSON:  PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
           28               YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT

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            1   TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
            2   THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
            3   TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
            4         THE WITNESS:  YES, MA'AM, I DO.
            5         THE FOREPERSON:  PLEASE BE SEATED.
            6               OFFICER RISKE, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
            7   NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
            8         THE WITNESS:  ROBERT LANCE RISKE.
            9               R-O-B-E-R-T L-A-N-C-E R-I-S-K-E.
           10         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
           11               YOU MAY PROCEED.
           12         MS. CLARK:  THANK YOU.
           13
           14                      ROBERT LANCE RISKE,
           15   CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
           16   WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
           17
           18                      E X A M I N A T I O N
           19   BY MS. CLARK:
           20         Q.    OFFICER RISKE, WILL YOU PLEASE TELL THE LADIES
           21   AND GENTLEMEN OF THIS JURY WHAT YOU DO FOR A LIVING.
           22         A.    I'M EMPLOYED BY LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT,
           23   ASSIGNED TO PATROL, WEST L.A.
           24         Q.    HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN SO ASSIGNED?
           25         A.    I HAVE BEEN A POLICE OFFICER 4 YEARS, BEEN
           26   ASSIGNED TO WEST L.A. FOR 2-1/2.
           27         Q.    WHAT ARE YOUR DUTIES IN THAT CAPACITY?
           28         A.    JUST PATROL, ANSWERING RADIO CALLS.

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            1         Q.    YOU DRIVE A PATROL CAR?
            2         A.    YES, MA'AM.
            3         Q.    DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE NIGHT OF
            4   JUNE 12, 1994 OR THE EARLY MORNING HOURS OF JUNE 13, 1994,
            5   DID YOU RECEIVE A CALL DIRECTING YOU TO THE RESIDENCE
            6   LOCATION OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY IN LOS ANGELES?
            7         A.    NO; WE RECEIVED A CALL TO 874 SOUTH BUNDY.
            8         Q.    DID YOU RESPOND TO THAT LOCATION?
            9         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           10         Q.    IS THERE SUCH A NUMBER OR ADDRESS AT THAT
           11   LOCATION?
           12         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           13         Q.    AND 874 WAS THE LOCATION OF WHAT KIND OF
           14   RESIDENCE?
           15         A.    IT WAS A SINGLE-FAMILY RESIDENCE.
           16         Q.    AND WHAT DID YOU OBSERVE WHEN YOU ARRIVED
           17   THERE?
           18         A.    WE OBSERVED A COUPLE WITH A DOG.
           19               THEY WERE ONE HOUSE NORTH OF THE LOCATION.

           20   THEY FLAGGED US DOWN.
           21         Q.    SORRY?
           22         A.    A COUPLE NORTH OF THE LOCATION, ONE HOUSE
           23   NORTH OF THE LOCATION FLAGGED US DOWN AS WE ARRIVED AT 874.
           24         Q.    A COUPLE THAT WAS ONE DOOR NORTH OF THE CRIME
           25   SCENE FLAGGED YOU DOWN?
           26         A.    RIGHT.
           27         Q.    AND THAT COUPLE THEN WAS STANDING IN FRONT OF
           28   874 SOUTH BUNDY?

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            1         A.    THEY WERE STANDING, I BELIEVE IT WAS, AT 870.
            2         Q.    AND WHERE DID THEY DIRECT YOU TO?
            3         A.    TO 875.
            4         Q.    AND DID YOU PROCEED TO 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
            5         A.    YES, MA'AM.
            6         Q.    THE COUPLE THAT WAS DIRECTING YOU, DID THEY
            7   HAVE AN ANIMAL WITH THEM?
            8         A.    YES, MA'AM, A DOG.
            9         Q.    DID YOU EXAMINE THE DOG TO NOTE HIS APPEARANCE?
           10         A.    I HAD OBSERVED THE DOG TO HAVE BLOOD ON ALL
           11   FOUR LEGS.
           12         Q.    I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU PHOTOGRAPHS THAT HAVE
           13   BEEN TAKEN OF THE SCENE.
           14               I WILL ASK YOU IF YOU RECOGNIZE THEM.
           15         A.    OKAY.
           16         Q.    FIRST OF ALL, SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 1.
           17               DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE SCENE DEPICTED THERE?
           18         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           19         Q.    WHERE WAS THAT?
           20               WHAT WAS THE LOCATION?
           21         A.    THE LOCATION OF -A WOULD BE 875 SOUTH BUNDY.
           22         Q.    ALL OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS SHOWN HERE, DO THEY
           23   SHOW -- WITH THE EXCEPTION OF -F, WHERE ALL YOU CAN SEE IS
           24   THE FACE OF THE VICTIM -- ARE ALL OF THOSE VICTIMS OF THE
           25   CRIME SCENE YOU FOUND AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
           26         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           27         Q.    WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THAT
           28   SCENE?

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            1         A.    IT WAS 13 AFTER MIDNIGHT.
            2         Q.    DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU WERE
            3   NOTIFIED TO PROCEED THERE?
            4         A.    IT WAS 9 MINUTES AFTER MIDNIGHT.
            5         Q.    IS THAT THE SCENE AS SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S 1?
            6               IS THAT EXACTLY WHAT YOU FOUND WHEN YOU ARRIVED
            7   THERE?
            8         A.    YES, MA'AM.
            9         Q.    SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 27, SIR.
           10               DO YOU SEE THESE PHOTOGRAPHS?
           11         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           12         Q.    WITH THE EXCEPTION OF PHOTOGRAPH -F THAT DOES
           13   NOT DEPICT THE CRIME SCENE, DO YOU RECALL SEEING WHAT IS
           14   DEPICTED IN PHOTOGRAPHS -A, -B, -C, -D AND -E AT THAT SAME
           15   LOCATION?
           16         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           17         Q.    AND AS SHOWN IN PHOTOGRAPHS -A, -B, -C, -D AND
           18   -E, IS THAT THE SCENE AS YOU FOUND IT?
           19         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           20         Q.    DID YOU TAKE ANY STEPS OR PRECAUTIONS TO MAKE
           21   SURE THAT THE CRIME SCENE WAS PRESERVED AS YOU FOUND IT,
           22   SIR?
           23         A.    WE TAPED OFF THE CRIME SCENE SO NOBODY CAN
           24   ENTER IT.
           25         Q.    WHEN YOU SAY YOU "TAPED" IT, IN WHAT MANNER DID
           26   YOU DO THAT?
           27         A.    WE USED CRIME SCENE TAPE.
           28               WE ACTUALLY SECURED THE WHOLE BLOCK, THE INNER

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            1   BLOCK OF BUNDY, AND THEN WE CRIME SCENE TAPED FROM 873 TO
            2   877.
            3         Q.    SO YOU ACTUALLY ROPED OFF FROM ONE HOUSE ABOVE
            4   AND ONE HOUSE BELOW THE CRIME SCENE?
            5         A.    YES, MA'AM.
            6         Q.    DID THAT TAPE ALSO INCLUDE THE REAR AREA OF THE
            7   BUILDING KNOWN AS 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
            8         A.    THE REAR WAS FROM THE SOUTH OF THE ALLEY OF THE
            9   800 BLOCK AND JUST NORTH OF 875 BUNDY.
           10         Q.    DID YOU ALSO ROPE OFF THE AREA THAT -- LET ME
           11   SHOW YOU A DIFFERENT PHOTOGRAPH, SIR.
           12               YOU HAVE PEOPLE'S 28 NOW BEFORE YOU.
           13               DO YOU SEE THAT, SIR?
           14         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           15         Q.    DO YOU RECALL THE LOCATION DEPICTED IN THOSE
           16   PHOTOGRAPHS?
           17         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           18         Q.    WAS THAT ALSO TAPED OFF?
           19         A.    YES.
           20               THAT WAS ENCOMPASSED IN THE TAPING I DESCRIBED
           21   EARLIER.
           22         Q.    AND AFTER YOU TAPED IT OFF, DID YOU ENSURE THAT
           23   NO ONE WAS PERMITTED TO WALK INTO ANY AREA THAT WAS
           24   ENCLOSED BY THE TAPE?
           25         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           26         Q.    DID YOU PRESERVE IT IN THAT MANNER UNTIL THE
           27   INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ARRIVED?
           28         A.    YES, MA'AM.

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            1         Q.    THAT'S STANDARD PROCEDURE?
            2         A.    YES, MA'AM.
            3         Q.    AND NO ONE DID PASS ACROSS THE TAPE AT ANY OF
            4   ITS PERIMETERS?
            5         A.    WELL, MYSELF AND ONE OTHER OFFICER, WE CROSSED
            6   THE TAPE AND WE SEARCHED THE RESIDENCE OF THAT LOCATION.
            7         Q.    AND WHEN YOU DID SO, DID YOU TAKE CARE NOT TO
            8   STEP IN THE BLOOD OR DISTURB ANY OF THE EVIDENCE?
            9         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           10         Q.    WHEN I SAY, "ANY OF THE EVIDENCE," I'M TALKING
           11   ABOUT BLOOD DROPS OR BLOODY FOOTPRINTS.
           12         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           13         Q.    WAS ALL EVIDENCE THAT YOU FOUND AT THE SCENE
           14   PRESERVED IN THE MANNER THAT YOU FOUND IT?
           15         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           16         Q.    THIS IS PEOPLE'S 26, SIR.
           17               DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE EVIDENCE THAT IS SHOWN IN
           18   THESE PHOTOGRAPHS?
           19         A.    YES, MA'AM, I DO.
           20         Q.    IN PHOTOGRAPHS -A, -B, -C AND -E AND -F, DO
           21   THOSE DEPICT THE ITEMS OF EVIDENCE AS YOU FOUND THEM AT THE
           22   CRIME SCENE --
           23         A.    YES, MA'AM, THEY DO.
           24         Q.    -- IN THE LOCATION IN WHICH YOU FOUND THEM?
           25         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           26         Q.    SO THEY ARE UNDISTURBED FROM THE TIME YOU SAW
           27   THEM?
           28         A.    YES, MA'AM; RIGHT.

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            1         Q.    WHEN YOU WENT UP TO -- YOU WENT TO THE DOOR OF
            2   THE RESIDENCE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
            3         A.    YES, MA'AM, I DID.
            4         Q.    FOR WHAT PURPOSE DID YOU DO THAT?
            5         A.    WHEN WE FIRST ARRIVED, THE DOOR WAS OPEN AND
            6   MYSELF AND ANOTHER OFFICER WENT INTO THE RESIDENCE TO CHECK
            7   FOR OTHER VICTIMS, POSSIBLE SUSPECTS.
            8         Q.    WHEN YOU SAY, "OPEN," SIR, DO YOU MEAN UNLOCKED
            9   OR AJAR?
           10         A.    IT WAS STANDING OPEN.
           11         Q.    HOW FAR?
           12         A.    THREE-QUARTERS OF THE WAY.
           13         Q.    DID YOU NOTICE ANY BLOODY FOOTPRINTS ON THE
           14   CARPETING OR ANY EVIDENCE OF DISTURBANCE OR STRUGGLE INSIDE
           15   THE HOUSE?
           16         A.    NO, I DIDN'T.
           17         Q.    DID YOU ALSO SECURE THE HOUSE AND MAKE SURE
           18   THAT NO ONE WAS PERMITTED IN OR OUT AFTER YOU FOUND THAT
           19   THERE WERE NO OTHER VICTIMS THERE?
           20         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           21         Q.    DID YOU HAPPEN TO NOTICE WHETHER THERE WERE ANY
           22   OTHER OCCUPANTS THAT WERE NOT VICTIMS IN THE SENSE OF BEING
           23   ATTACKED THAT NIGHT IN THE HOUSE?
           24         A.    YES.
           25               THERE WERE TWO JUVENILES UPSTAIRS.
           26         Q.    TWO CHILDREN?
           27         A.    YES.
           28         Q.    WHAT WERE THEY DOING?

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            1         A.    THEY WERE SLEEPING.
            2         Q.    WERE THEY ASLEEP WHEN YOU FOUND THEM?
            3         A.    YES, MA'AM.
            4         Q.    WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THEM?
            5         A.    WE WOKE THEM UP AND ESCORTED THEM OUT OF THE
            6   BACK OF THE RESIDENCE.
            7         Q.    AND AFTER THAT POINT?
            8         A.    THEY WERE TRANSPORTED TO WEST L.A. STATION.
            9         Q.    THE CHILDREN, WAS IT A GIRL AND BOY?
           10         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           11         MS. CLARK:  I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
           12         THE FOREPERSON:  IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
           13   HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
           14               THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
           15   SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
           16
           17                         (SHORT PAUSE.)
           18
           19         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  WHEN YOU WENT TO CHECK THE
           20   RESIDENCE, 875 SOUTH BUNDY, THAT IS, THE INSIDE OF THE
           21   HOUSE, DID YOU NOTICE WHETHER ANY LIGHTS WERE ON?
           22         A.    I BELIEVE ALL THE LIGHTS WERE ON EXCEPT THE
           23   LIGHTS IN THE CHILDREN'S ROOM, A COUPLE BATHROOMS AND THE
           24   EXERCISE ROOM UPSTAIRS.
           25         Q.    SO THE HOUSE WAS FULLY LIT?
           26         A.    RIGHT.
           27         Q.    DID YOU HAPPEN TO GO -- WAS THERE A MASTER
           28   BEDROOM THERE OR ONE THAT APPEARED TO YOU TO BE A MASTER

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            1   BEDROOM?
            2         A.    YES, MA'AM.
            3         Q.    WAS THAT ALSO FULLY LIT?
            4         A.    THE BEDROOM ITSELF WAS LIT.
            5               THERE WAS -- THE BEDROOM CONNECTED TO THAT
            6   BATHROOM WAS DARK, BUT THERE WERE CANDLES LIT IN THE
            7   BATHROOM.
            8         Q.    IN THE BATHROOM?
            9         A.    YES.
           10         Q.    BUT THE BEDROOM LIGHTS WERE ON?
           11         A.    YES.
           12         Q.    WAS THE BED MADE?
           13         A.    NO.
           14         Q.    WAS IT UNMADE?
           15         A.    IT WAS UNMADE.
           16         Q.    DID IT LOOK AS THOUGH SOMEONE HAD BEEN SLEEPING
           17   IN IT OR RESTING IN IT?
           18         A.    WELL, SOMEONE APPEARED TO HAVE BEEN IN IT.
           19         Q.    WERE THE COVERS TURNED DOWN?
           20         A.    NO.  THEY WERE MORE PILED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE
           21   BED.
           22         MS. CLARK:  I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
           23         THE FOREPERSON:  IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
           24   HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
           25               THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
           26   SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
           27
           28                         (SHORT PAUSE.)

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            1
            2         THE FOREPERSON:  THERE BEING NO FURTHER QUESTIONS,
            3   OFFICER RISKE, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY
            4   CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
            5               YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
            6   PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
            7   ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
            8               IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
            9   MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
           10   INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
           11   HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
           12   PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
           13               I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF

           14   THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
           15   YOU.
           16               DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
           17         THE WITNESS:  YES, MA'AM, I DO.
           18         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
           19               YOU ARE EXCUSED.
           20         THE WITNESS:  THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
           21
           22                   (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
           23                       JURY HEARING ROOM.)
           24
           25         MS. CLARK:  PEOPLE WOULD CALL DETECTIVE VANNATTER.
           26         THE FOREPERSON:  DETECTIVE PHILLIP VANNATTER?
           27         THE WITNESS:  YES, MA'AM.
           28         THE FOREPERSON:  PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.

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            1               YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
            2   TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
            3   THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
            4   TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
            5         THE WITNESS:  I DO.
            6         THE FOREPERSON:  PLEASE BE SEATED.
            7         THE WITNESS:  THANK YOU.
            8         THE FOREPERSON:  DETECTIVE VANNATTER, PLEASE STATE
            9   AND SPELL YOUR FULL NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE
           10   MICROPHONE.
           11         THE WITNESS:  PHILLIP LEWIS VANNATTER.
           12               P-H-I-L-I-P L-E-W-I-S V-A-N-N-A-T-T-E-R.
           13         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
           14               YOU MAY PROCEED.
           15
           16                    PHILLIP LEWIS VANNATTER,
           17   CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
           18   WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
           19
           20                      E X A M I N A T I O N
           21   BY MS. CLARK:
           22         Q.    DETECTIVE VANNATTER, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU
           23   DO FOR A LIVING, PLEASE.
           24         A.    YES.
           25               I'M A POLICE DETECTIVE FOR THE CITY OF
           26   LOS ANGELES.
           27         Q.    AND WHERE ARE YOU ASSIGNED, SIR?
           28         A.    ROBBERY/HOMICIDE DIVISION.

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            1         Q.    ALL RIGHT.
            2         A.    HOMICIDE SPECIAL SECTION.
            3         Q.    HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN SO ASSIGNED?
            4         A.    I HAVE BEEN ASSIGNED THERE FOR THE PAST
            5   15 YEARS.
            6         Q.    CAN YOU TELL ME IN THE COURSE OF THAT
            7   ASSIGNMENT, SIR, HOW MANY HOMICIDES HAVE YOU INVESTIGATED.
            8         A.    WELL, I EVEN WORKED HOMICIDE BEFORE I WORKED
            9   THERE.
           10               I WORKED HOMICIDE IN A COUPLE OF THE DIVISIONS
           11   IN THE CITY, PROBABLY -- OH, OVER 200 THAT I WOULD HAVE TO
           12   SAY I HAVE BEEN PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN.
           13         Q.    IS THAT OVERALL, IN TERMS OF THE ENTIRE TIME
           14   THAT YOU HAVE BEEN A POLICE OFFICER?
           15         A.    OH, NO.  I HAVE BEEN AT MANY, MANY SCENES.
           16               I HAVE PERSONALLY BEEN INVOLVED IN OVER 200,
           17   BUT I HAVE PROBABLY BEEN AT OVER 500 OR 600 HOMICIDE
           18   SCENES.
           19         Q.    OVER THE COURSE OF YOUR CAREER?
           20         A.    YES.
           21         Q.    WHAT IS IT THAT YOUR SECTION DOES?
           22         A.    WE STRICTLY INVESTIGATE HOMICIDES.
           23               WE ARE CALLED THE HOMICIDE SPECIAL SECTION.  WE
           24   HANDLE VERY INVOLVED CASES, HIGH-PROFILE CASES OR SERIAL
           25   MURDER TYPE CASES.
           26         Q.    AND YOU ARE A WORKING PARTNER WITH DETECTIVE
           27   TOM LANGE?
           28         A.    THAT'S CORRECT; YES.

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            1         Q.    AND WERE YOU ASSIGNED TO THIS CASE AS A PARTNER
            2   WITH TOM LANGE, BOTH OF YOU, TO INVESTIGATE THIS CASE?
            3         A.    YES.
            4         Q.    AT WHAT POINT WERE YOU ASSIGNED THIS CASE,
            5   SIR?  AT WHAT TIME?
            6         A.    I RECEIVED THE INITIAL PHONE CALL AT
            7   APPROXIMATELY 3:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING OF JUNE THE 13TH,
            8   MONDAY MORNING.
            9         Q.    AFTER YOU RECEIVED THAT PHONE CALL, SIR, WHAT
           10   DID YOU DO?
           11         A.    I PREPARED MYSELF AND RESPONDED TO THE SCENE.
           12         Q.    WHERE WAS THAT?
           13         A.    AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY DRIVE IN WEST LOS ANGELES.
           14         Q.    TO YOUR RIGHT, SIR, ARE EXHIBITS PEOPLE'S 1, 28
           15   AND ON THE -- JUST BELOW THE BULLETIN BOARD STANDING ON THE
           16   FLOOR, PEOPLE'S 26.
           17         A.    YES.
           18         Q.    DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT IS DEPICTED IN THESE
           19   PHOTOGRAPHS?
           20         A.    YES, I DO.
           21         Q.    CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THAT IS.
           22         A.    YES.
           23               THOSE ARE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT WERE TAKEN AT THE
           24   SCENE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY DRIVE.
           25         Q.    THE SCENE DEPICTED THERE, IS THAT THE MANNER
           26   WHICH YOU FOUND IT?
           27         A.    YES; THAT'S CORRECT.
           28         Q.    WHILE YOU WERE AT THAT SCENE, SIR, DID YOU

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            1   HAPPEN TO NOTICE THE EVIDENCE DEPICTED IN PHOTOGRAPH -A OF
            2   PEOPLE'S 26?
            3         A.    YES, I DID.
            4         Q.    IF YOU CAN TELL US, SIR -- AND IT'S ALSO SHOWN
            5   I BELIEVE IN PEOPLE'S 27, PHOTOGRAPH -E?
            6         A.    YES; THAT'S CORRECT.
            7         Q.    CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IT IS THAT IS BEING SHOWN
            8   IN EACH OF THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT I HAVE JUST DESCRIBED.
            9         A.    YES.
           10               THAT'S A MAN'S LEATHER GLOVE, LEFT HAND.
           11         Q.    DID YOU REMAIN AT THAT CRIME SCENE FOR SOME
           12   TIME?
           13         A.    I WAS AT THAT CRIME SCENE ORIGINALLY.
           14               I ARRIVED AT THAT CRIME SCENE JUST SHORTLY
           15   AFTER 4:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING AND I LEFT THAT CRIME
           16   SCENE SOME TIME SHORTLY AFTER 5:00 O'CLOCK.
           17         Q.    WHERE DID YOU GO?
           18         A.    I MET MY PARTNER AT THE CRIME SCENE.
           19               WHEN I ARRIVED THERE, WEST LOS ANGELES
           20   DETECTIVES HAD THE CRIME SCENE UNDER SECURITY.
           21               WE DID A WALK-THROUGH OF THE CRIME SCENE,
           22   LOOKED AT THE EVIDENCE AND CAME TO A DECISION THAT WE
           23   NEEDED TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION, SINCE WE HAD IDENTIFIED THE
           24   FEMALE VICTIM AT THAT SCENE.
           25               WE HAD IDENTIFIED HER AS NICOLE SIMPSON BROWN
           26   OR NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.
           27               I WAS ALSO TOLD BY WEST LOS ANGELES DETECTIVES
           28   THAT THERE WERE TWO YOUNG CHILDREN THAT HAD BEEN TAKEN FROM

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            1   THE RESIDENCE, THE TWO CHILDREN OF THE SIMPSONS; THAT THEY
            2   WERE PRESENTLY AT WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION.
            3               SO WE MADE A DETERMINATION AT THAT POINT TO
            4   ATTEMPT TO LOCATE MR. SIMPSON TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION TO
            5   HIM.
            6         Q.    WHERE DID YOU GO IN ORDER TO DO THAT?
            7         A.    WE DETERMINED HIS RESIDENCE LOCATION WAS AT
            8   360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM DRIVE IN WEST LOS ANGELES AND MYSELF,
            9   MY PARTNER AND TWO WEST L.A. DETECTIVES RESPONDED TO THAT
           10   LOCATION.
           11         Q.    THAT WAS IN BRENTWOOD?
           12         A.    THAT'S CORRECT; YES.
           13         Q.    WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU GOT THERE?
           14         A.    WELL, WE WERE ATTEMPTING TO MAKE NOTIFICATION,
           15   THE DEATH NOTIFICATION, AS WELL AS THE FACT THAT WE HAD THE
           16   CHILDREN AND WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WE WERE GOING TO FIND
           17   THERE.
           18               AFTER ARRIVING THERE, WE WENT TO THE INTERCOM
           19   SYSTEM THAT RINGS THE PHONE TO THE HOME, AND THAT WOULD
           20   HAVE BEEN ON THE ASHFORD SIDE OF THE HOME, WHICH WOULD HAVE

           21   BEEN THE NORTH GATE WHERE THE INTERCOM SYSTEM WAS LOCATED.
           22         Q.    EXCUSE ME, SIR.
           23               I WILL PUT UP A PHOTOGRAPH SO YOU CAN POINT TO
           24   IT FOR THE JURY WHILE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IT.
           25         A.    CERTAINLY.
           26         Q.    ALL RIGHT.
           27               I HAVE PUT UP EXHIBITS PEOPLE'S 2 AND 3.
           28               IF YOU WOULD, SIR -- PEOPLE'S 2 IS THE

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            1   PHOTOGRAPHS; PEOPLE'S 3 IS THE DIAGRAM.
            2               IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO USE THOSE TO ILLUSTRATE TO
            3   THE JURY WHAT YOU ARE TESTIFYING ABOUT, JUST IDENTIFY
            4   WHETHER IT'S 2 OR 3 THAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO WHEN YOU DO
            5   THAT.
            6         A.    CERTAINLY.
            7               MAY I STAND IN FRONT OF IT WHEN I DO THAT?
            8         Q.    YES.
            9               AND YOU HAVE A POINTER IN FRONT OF YOU.
           10         A.    WHEN WE FIRST RESPONDED TO THE LOCATION, WE
           11   PARKED ON THE ASHFORD SIDE.  WE PARKED OUR VEHICLES OVER IN
           12   THIS AREA.
           13               THERE IS AN INTERCOM SYSTEM THAT'S LOCATED AT
           14   THE NORTH SIDE OF THE PROPERTY, WHICH WOULD BE THE ASHFORD
           15   GATE.
           16               WE ATTEMPTED TO USE THIS INTERCOM SYSTEM FOR A
           17   PERIOD OF TIME AND GOT NO RESPONSE.
           18               STANDING THERE AT THE GATE, WE COULD HEAR THE
           19   PHONE RINGING INSIDE THE RESIDENCE WHEN WE WOULD PUNCH THE
           20   BUTTON.
           21               WE RECEIVED NO RESPONSE.
           22               LOCATED RIGHT IN THIS AREA HERE BY THE GATE,
           23   THERE IS A WESTEC SECURITY SIGN THAT INDICATES THAT THE
           24   RESIDENCE IS PROTECTED BY WESTEC SECURITY, WHICH IS A
           25   PRIVATE SECURITY COMPANY.
           26               WE GOT IN TOUCH WITH THEM, WE MADE TELEPHONIC
           27   CONTACT AND REQUESTED THEIR ASSISTANCE TO ATTEMPT TO
           28   DETERMINE IF THERE WAS ANYONE IN THIS RESIDENCE.

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            1               DURING THIS POINT IN TIME WHILE WE ARE TRYING
            2   TO MAKE NOTIFICATION HERE, WE OBSERVED PARKED -- OR I
            3   OBSERVED PARKED OVER BY THE ROCKINGHAM GATE HEADED NORTH A
            4   1994 WHITE FORD BRONCO.  IT WAS HEADED NORTH AT WHAT WOULD
            5   BE THE EAST CURB OF ROCKINGHAM JUST NORTH OF THE GATE.
            6               THE VEHICLE WAS SLIGHTLY COCKED WITH THE FRONT
            7   END CLOSER TO THE CURB THAN THE REAR END OF THE VEHICLE,
            8   LIKE IT HAD BEEN HURRIEDLY PULLED UP AND PARKED AT THE CURB
            9   AND NOT PARKED IN A STRAIGHT ANGLE.
           10               AFTER THE ARRIVAL OF WESTEC SECURITY, WE
           11   OBTAINED THE PHONE NUMBER TO THE RESIDENCE AND ATTEMPTED TO
           12   MAKE SEVERAL PHONE CALLS BY CELLULAR PHONE TO AROUSE
           13   SOMEONE IN THE RESIDENCE.
           14               WE RECEIVED NO ANSWER.  ALL WE GOT WAS AN
           15   ANSWER PHONE INSIDE THE HOME.
           16               DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME, WE DETERMINED --
           17         Q.    HOW DID YOU DETERMINE THAT THE ANSWER PHONE
           18   THAT WAS ANSWERING WAS INSIDE THE HOME?
           19         A.    IT WAS A PHONE NUMBER THAT WAS SUPPLIED TO US
           20   BY WESTEC SECURITY TO THE RESIDENCE.
           21         Q.    WHEN THE ANSWER PHONE PICKED UP THE CALL,
           22   WHAT DID IT SAY?
           23         A.    THE VOICE ON THE PHONE INDICATED THAT IT WAS
           24   O.J.
           25         Q.    O.J. SIMPSON?
           26         A.    O.J.
           27         Q.    JUST O.J.?
           28         A.    YES.

                                                                          329

            1               WE ALSO QUESTIONED WESTEC SECURITY AT THAT
            2   POINT IF THEY HAD ANY NOTIFICATION THAT THE PEOPLE OF THIS
            3   RESIDENCE WERE HOME OR WHETHER THEY WERE OUT OF TOWN OR
            4   WHATEVER, AND WESTEC INFORMED US THAT THEY --
            5         Q.    EXCUSE ME.  DON'T TELL US WHAT WESTEC TOLD
            6   YOU.
            7               BUT THEY DID TELL YOU SOMETHING?
            8         A.    YES.
            9         Q.    BASED ON WHAT THEY TOLD YOU, WHAT DID YOU DO?
           10         A.    AT THAT POINT, GOING BACK TO THE VEHICLE, WE
           11   HAD OBSERVED BLOOD ON THE VEHICLE, ON THE DOOR HANDLE, THE
           12   DRIVER'S DOOR HANDLE OF THE VEHICLE, OR WHAT APPEARED TO BE
           13   BLOOD.
           14               AT THAT POINT, WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF
           15   SITUATION WE HAD.
           16               ONE OF THE DETECTIVES WITH ME CLIMBED OVER THE
           17   FENCE AT THIS POINT AND OPENED THE GATE.
           18         Q.     FOR THE RECORD, YOU ARE REFERRING TO
           19   PEOPLE'S 3, THE ASHFORD SIDE GATE?
           20         A.    THAT'S CORRECT; YES.
           21         Q.    AFTER WE OPENED THE GATE, PROCEEDED TO THE
           22   FRONT DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE AND ATTEMPTED TO AROUSE SOMEONE
           23   IN THE HOME AND WAS UNABLE TO DO SO.
           24               WE THEN STARTED SECURING THE PROPERTY, NOT
           25   KNOWING WHAT WE HAD.
           26               WE WENT AROUND THE NORTH SIDE OF THE PROPERTY
           27   TO THE REAR WHERE THERE ARE APPARENTLY GUEST QUARTERS.
           28         Q.    WHEN YOU SAY, "NOT KNOWING WHAT WE HAD," SIR,

                                                                          330

            1   WHAT DO YOU MEAN?
            2               WHAT WERE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT?
            3         A.    WELL, AT THAT POINT, OBSERVING BLOOD OUT HERE,
            4   WE DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER WE HAD ANOTHER MURDER SCENE OR NOT.
            5               IT'S QUITE CONCEIVABLE THAT KNOWING THAT THE
            6   EX-WIFE OF MR. SIMPSON HAD BEEN MURDERED WITHIN A VERY
            7   CLOSE DISTANCE OF HIS RESIDENCE, SOMETHING COULD HAVE
            8   OCCURRED THERE, TOO.
            9               AND, RECEIVING NO RESPONSE FROM THE HOME, WE
           10   HAD NO IDEA WHAT OCCURRED.
           11               SO WE WENT TO THE REAR AREA OF THE HOUSE TO
           12   WHAT APPEARED TO BE GUEST QUARTERS AND STARTED KNOCKING ON
           13   THOSE DOORS IN AN ATTEMPT TO FIND OUT IF THERE WAS ANYBODY
           14   AT THE LOCATION.
           15               WHEN WE DID THAT, AT THE FIRST QUARTER, WE
           16   AROUSED A PERSON WHO IDENTIFIED HIMSELF AS "KATO," WHO
           17   LATER TOLD US HIS NAME WAS BRIAN KAELIN.
           18               HE TOLD US --
           19         Q.    IS THAT ONE OF THE WITNESSES YOU ASSISTED IN
           20   ARRIVING TO TESTIFY BEFORE THE GRAND JURY?
           21         A.    THAT'S CORRECT; YES.
           22               HE TOLD US THAT THE OTHER GUEST QUARTERS --
           23         Q.    EXCUSE ME.
           24               WITHOUT TELLING US WHAT HE SAID, DID HE GIVE
           25   YOU SOME INFORMATION, SIR?
           26         A.    YES, HE DID.
           27         Q.    AND, BASED ON WHAT HE TOLD YOU, WHAT DID YOU
           28   DO?

                                                                          331

            1         A.    WE KNOCKED AT THE OTHER GUEST QUARTER DOOR AND
            2   AROUSED THE FEMALE WHO IDENTIFIED HERSELF AS ARNELL
            3   SIMPSON, THE DAUGHTER OF O.J. SIMPSON.
            4         Q.    DID YOU THEN HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HER?
            5         A.    YES.
            6         Q.    AND AFTER YOU HAD THE CONVERSATION WITH HER,
            7   WHAT DID YOU DO?
            8         A.    WE GAINED ADMITTANCE TO THE HOUSE AND, WITH HER
            9   ASSISTANCE, CONTACTED MR. SIMPSON BY TELEPHONE.
           10         Q.    DID YOU SPEAK TO MR. SIMPSON OR WERE YOU
           11   PRESENT WHEN SOMEONE ELSE DID SO?
           12         A.    I WAS PRESENT, YES.
           13         Q.    WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT?
           14         A.    IT WAS BEGINNING TO LIGHTEN UP.
           15               WE WALKED OUTSIDE TO MAKE SURE NOTHING WAS
           16   WRONG WITH THE RESIDENCE AND EVERYTHING WAS OKAY, AND WE
           17   WERE LOOKING AROUND THE HOUSE TO MAKE SURE NOTHING HAD
           18   OCCURRED AT THE HOME.
           19               AND ON THE -- WHICH WOULD BE THE SOUTH SIDE OF
           20   THE RESIDENCE, IN THIS WALKWAY --
           21         MS. CLARK:  FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS POINTING
           22   TO THE AREA JUST BELOW THE GARAGE BETWEEN THE SOUTHERNMOST
           23   PORTION OF THE GARAGE WALL AND THE BOUNDARY LINE OF THE
           24   PROPERTY, WHICH WAS PREVIOUSLY MARKED BY ANOTHER WITNESS
           25   WITH A CIRCLE AND A LINE.
           26         THE WITNESS:  IT'S A VERY NARROW WALKWAY BETWEEN THE
           27   HOUSE AND THE FENCE THAT APPARENTLY SEPARATES THE TWO
           28   PROPERTIES FROM THE OTHER PROPERTY THAT WOULD BE SOUTH OF

                                                                          332

            1   THAT LOCATION.
            2               I WAS DIRECTED BY ANOTHER DETECTIVE WHO
            3   PRECEDED ME IN THERE TO A MAN'S GLOVE THAT WAS LYING IN
            4   THIS AREA.
            5         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  MAY I SHOW YOU ANOTHER
            6   PHOTOGRAPH?
            7         A.    YES.
            8         Q.    SHOWING YOU NOW PEOPLE'S 4.
            9               DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT IS SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S 4?
           10         A.    YES, I DO.
           11         Q.    TELL US WHAT YOU SEE.
           12         A.    -A AND -B DEPICT THE AREA ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF
           13   THE HOUSE THAT I HAD PREVIOUSLY DESCRIBED BETWEEN THE
           14   ACTUAL EXTERIOR WALL AND THE FENCE OF THE ADJOINING
           15   PROPERTY.
           16               -C, -D AND -E DEPICT THE LEATHER GLOVE THAT I
           17   OBSERVED LYING ON THE GROUND THERE IN THIS AREA, THE MAN'S
           18   LEATHER GLOVE THAT IS A RIGHT-HANDED GLOVE.
           19         Q.    IS THAT THE GLOVE YOU WERE DESCRIBING THAT YOU
           20   HAD BEEN DIRECTED TO SEE BY ANOTHER DETECTIVE?
           21         A.    THAT'S CORRECT; YES.
           22         Q.    IS IT DEPICTED IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS AS YOU
           23   FOUND IT?
           24         A.    YES.
           25         Q.    NOW, YOU HAD BEEN TO THE ORIGINAL CRIME SCENE.
           26               IS THAT CORRECT?
           27         A.    YES.
           28         Q.    AND YOU TOLD US EARLIER THAT YOU HAD SEEN A

                                                                          333

            1   GLOVE THERE.
            2               IS THAT CORRECT?
            3         A.    THAT'S CORRECT; YES.
            4         Q.    WHEN YOU SAW THE GLOVE DEPICTED IN THE
            5   PHOTOGRAPHS YOU HAVE JUST POINTED TO IN PEOPLE'S 4, I
            6   BELIEVE, DID SOMETHING SEIZE YOUR ATTENTION?
            7         A.    YES.
            8               THE GLOVE I SAW AT THE SOUTH SIDE OF
            9   MR. SIMPSON RESIDENCE APPEARED TO BE THE RIGHT GLOVE TO THE
           10   LEFT GLOVE THAT I HAD OBSERVED AT THE ORIGINAL CRIME
           11   SCENE.
           12               THEY APPEARED TO BE THE MATCHING RIGHT AND LEFT
           13   GLOVES.
           14         Q.    NOW, DID YOU ASK OR MAKE A REQUEST THAT THOSE
           15   GLOVES BE PHOTOGRAPHED TOGETHER IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE
           16   THE MATCHING PAIR?
           17         A.    YES, I DID.
           18         MS. CLARK:  MADAME FOREMAN, I WILL ASK TO BE MARKED
           19   TWO MORE PHOTOGRAPHS.  THESE ARE OF BROWN LEATHER GLOVES.
           20               I WOULD LIKE THE FIRST PHOTOGRAPH SHOWING THE
           21   BACK OF THE HAND OF THE GLOVES MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 30.
           22         THE FOREPERSON:  SO ORDERED.
           23                (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 30.)
           24         MS. CLARK:  THE SECOND PHOTOGRAPH IS ALSO OF BROWN
           25   LEATHER GLOVES, SHOWING THE PALM SIDE OF THE GLOVES.
           26               I WOULD ASK THAT BE MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 31.
           27         THE FOREPERSON:  SO ORDERED.
           28                (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 31.)

                                                                          334

            1         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  YOU HAVE NOW PEOPLE'S 30 AND 31
            2   IN FRONT OF YOU, SIR.
            3         A.    YES.
            4         Q.    ARE THOSE THE GLOVES THAT YOU FOUND
            5   RESPECTIVELY AT THE CRIME SCENE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY AND THE
            6   HOME OF MR. SIMPSON AT 360 ROCKINGHAM AVENUE IN BRENTWOOD?
            7         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
            8         Q.    NOW, I'M SHOWING YOU PHOTOGRAPHS THAT HAVE
            9   COLLECTIVELY BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 5.
           10               YOU DESCRIBED A FORD BRONCO IN WHICH YOU SAW
           11   BLOOD ON THE DRIVER'S HANDLE.
           12         A.    YES.
           13         Q.    IN PHOTOGRAPHS -A, -B AND -C, ARE THOSE THE
           14   PHOTOGRAPHS OF THAT FORD BRONCO, SIR?
           15         A.    YES.
           16         Q.    AND THE MAN POINTING TO A HANDLE IN
           17   PHOTOGRAPH -A, DO YOU RECOGNIZE HIM?
           18         A.    YES, I DO.
           19         Q.    WHO IS THAT?
           20         A.    THAT'S A CRIMINALIST FOR THE LOS ANGELES POLICE
           21   DEPARTMENT, DENNIS FUNG.
           22         Q.    DID YOU REQUEST THAT HE COME TO TEST THE BLOOD
           23   ON THE HANDLE OF THAT DOOR?
           24         A.    I DID, YES.
           25         Q.    AFTER SEEING THE GLOVE THAT YOU BELIEVED TO BE
           26   A MATE FOR THE ONE YOU SAW AT THE CRIME SCENE, WHAT DID YOU
           27   DO NEXT?
           28         A.    WELL, AS I HAD STATED BEFORE, IT HAD BEGAN TO

                                                                          335

            1   LIGHTEN UP.  IT WAS GETTING LIGHT TO WHERE YOU COULD SEE
            2   REAL WELL.
            3               AND AFTER COMING BACK TO THE FRONT OF THE
            4   RESIDENCE, I OBSERVED BLOOD DROPS IN THE FRONT OF THE
            5   DRIVEWAY THAT LED, APPARENTLY, FROM THE BRONCO TO THE FRONT
            6   DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE.
            7               I ALSO OBSERVED AT THAT POINT SOME BLOOD DROPS
            8   INSIDE THE FRONT DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE.
            9               I SECURED THE LOCATION, MOVED EVERYBODY OUT OF
           10   THE HOUSE AND SECURED IT AND WROTE A SEARCH WARRANT FOR THE
           11   PROPERTY AT THAT TIME.
           12         Q.    AGAIN, SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 5, SIR.
           13               CAN YOU TELL ME WITH RESPECT TO PHOTOGRAPHS -C,
           14   -D, -E, -F, -G AND -H -- FIRST OF ALL, LET ME BACK UP AND
           15   ASK YOU:
           16               DID YOU DIRECT THAT CERTAIN PHOTOGRAPHS BE
           17   TAKEN AT THE PROPERTY OF 360 ROCKINGHAM AVENUE?
           18         A.    YES, I DID.
           19         Q.    AND THE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT I'M SHOWING YOU NOW IN
           20   PEOPLE'S 5, WERE THOSE TAKEN AT YOUR DIRECTION AND YOUR
           21   REQUEST?
           22         A.    YES.
           23         Q.    WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO DEPICT IN PHOTOGRAPHS
           24   -C THROUGH -H?
           25         A.    THE TRAIL OF BLOOD DROPS THAT LED FROM THE AREA
           26   OF THE FORD BRONCO TO THE FRONT DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE AND
           27   THE BLOOD DROPS INSIDE THE RESIDENCE.
           28         Q.    AND THOSE WERE THE BLOOD DROPS THAT YOU HAVE

                                                                          336

            1   JUST DESCRIBED AS SEEING THERE?
            2         A.    THAT'S CORRECT; YES.
            3         Q.    IN PEOPLE'S 2, SIR, CAN YOU TELL ME IN
            4   PHOTOGRAPHS -D, -E AND -F WHAT YOU WERE ATTEMPTING TO HAVE
            5   DEPICTED IN THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS.
            6         A.    YES.
            7               THAT SHOWS -- STARTING HERE AT PHOTOGRAPH -F,
            8   THAT WOULD SHOW EAST FROM THE ROCKINGHAM GATE LEADING TO
            9   THE RESIDENCE, AND WE ARE ATTEMPTING TO SHOW THE TRAIL OF
           10   BLOOD DROPS THAT LEAD FROM THE STREET AREA, WHICH WOULD BE
           11   IN HERE WHERE THE VEHICLE WOULD HAVE BEEN PARKED UP THE
           12   DRIVEWAY INTO THE FRONT DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE.
           13         Q.    IN PHOTOGRAPH -C, SIR, OFF TO THE RIGHT OF THE
           14   PHOTOGRAPH AS YOU FACE IT, THERE APPEARS TO BE A WHITE
           15   VEHICLE.
           16               DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT?
           17         A.    YES, I DO.
           18               THAT'S THE FORD BRONCO THAT WAS PARKED AT THE
           19   CURB THERE.
           20         Q.    IS THAT THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU FOUND IT WHEN
           21   YOU ARRIVED AT THE RESIDENCE THAT NIGHT OR EARLY MORNING
           22   HOURS?
           23         A.    YES, IT IS.
           24         Q.    I BELIEVE YOU INDICATED THAT YOU WENT TO SECURE
           25   A SEARCH WARRANT FOR THE LOCATION OF 360 ROCKINGHAM AVENUE.
           26         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           27         Q.    AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
           28         A.    AFTER SECURING THE SEARCH WARRANT, I RETURNED

                                                                          337

            1   TO THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION.
            2               WHEN I RETURNED THERE, I ENTERED THE ROCKINGHAM
            3   GATE, WHICH WOULD BE ON THE WEST SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE.
            4               AS I'M WALKING THROUGH THE GATE, I OBSERVED A
            5   MR. HOWARD WEITZMAN, A DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AND ANOTHER
            6   ATTORNEY WHO IDENTIFIED HIMSELF AS LEROY TATE STANDING BY
            7   THE GATE.
            8         Q.    LEROY TAFT?
            9         A.    TAFT, I'M SORRY, STANDING BY THE GATE.
           10               I RECOGNIZED MR. WEITZMAN FROM PRIOR CONTACTS.
           11               HE TOLD ME HE WAS THERE REPRESENTING --
           12         Q.    EXCUSE ME, SIR, PLEASE.
           13         A.    SORRY.
           14         MS. CLARK:  THE JURY IS REQUESTED TO DISREGARD ANY
           15   STATEMENTS BY MR. WEITZMAN.
           16         Q.    YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
           17         A.    YES, I DID.
           18         Q.    WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE CONVERSATION?
           19         A.    I ENTERED THE LOCATION.
           20               I HAD PREVIOUSLY INSTRUCTED UNIFORMED OFFICERS
           21   THAT THIS WAS A SECURE RESIDENCE; THAT IF MR. SIMPSON
           22   ARRIVED AT THE LOCATION, TO KEEP HIM FROM COMING INTO THE
           23   LOCATION.
           24               SHORTLY AFTER GETTING THERE, I WAS INSIDE, I
           25   LOOKED OUT THE OPEN FRONT DOOR AND OBSERVED MR. SIMPSON AT
           26   THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE OUT ON THE FRONT LAWN.
           27               I RESPONDED TO HIS LOCATION AND SPOKE WITH HIM.
           28         Q.    DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ON EITHER OF

                                                                          338

            1   HIS HANDS?
            2         A.    YES, I DID.
            3         Q.    WHAT DID YOU SEE?
            4         A.    HE HAD A BANDAGE ON THE MIDDLE FINGER OF HIS
            5   LEFT HAND IN THE MAJOR KNUCKLE AREA OF HIS HAND.
            6         Q.    WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
            7         A.    I SPOKE WITH MR. SIMPSON.
            8               HE REQUESTED TO SPEAK WITH HIS ATTORNEY,
            9   MR. WEITZMAN.
           10         MS. CLARK:  THE JURY IS ASKED TO DISREGARD THAT
           11   STATEMENT.
           12         Q.    MR. SIMPSON MADE A REQUEST, SIR?
           13         A.    YES, HE DID.
           14         Q.    AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT?
           15         A.    I ALLOWED MR. SIMPSON TO SPEAK WITH HIS
           16   ATTORNEY.
           17         Q.    WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT?
           18         A.    I LEFT WITH HIM AND PROCEDED TO PARKER CENTER
           19   DOWNTOWN.
           20         Q.    WHEN YOU WENT TO PARKER CENTER, WAS MR. SIMPSON
           21   RESTRAINED IN ANY MANNER?
           22         A.    NO.
           23         Q.    HE WENT WITH YOU VOLUNTARILY?
           24         A.    YES.
           25         Q.    WHEN YOU GOT TO PARKER CENTER, DID YOU HAVE AN
           26   INTERVIEW WITH HIM?
           27         A.    YES.
           28         Q.    WAS MR. WEITZMAN PRESENT AT PARKER CENTER?

                                                                          339

            1         A.    YES.
            2         Q.    WAS HE PRESENT IN THE ROOM WITH YOU WHEN YOU
            3   INTERVIEWED MR. SIMPSON?
            4         A.    NO.
            5         Q.    NOW, BEFORE SPEAKING TO MR. SIMPSON, DID YOU
            6   ADVISE HIM OF HIS RIGHTS?
            7         A.    YES.
            8         Q.    DID YOU DO SO FROM A CARD OR FROM MEMORY?
            9         A.    I DID IT FROM MEMORY.
           10         Q.    CAN YOU DO IT FOR US NOW AS YOU DID IT FOR
           11   MR. SIMPSON AT THAT TIME.
           12         A.    CERTAINLY.
           13               "YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT.
           14               "IF YOU GIVE UP THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT,
           15   ANYTHING YOU SAY CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU IN A
           16   COURT OF LAW.
           17               "YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPEAK TO AN ATTORNEY AND
           18   TO HAVE AN ATTORNEY PRESENT DURING QUESTIONING.
           19               "IF YOU SO DESIRE AND CANNOT AFFORD ONE, AN
           20   ATTORNEY WILL BE APPOINTED FOR YOU WITHOUT CHARGE BEFORE
           21   QUESTIONING."
           22         Q.    AND WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE?
           23         A.    I ASKED HIM IF HE UNDERSTOOD THOSE RIGHTS.
           24               AND HE STATED, "YES," HE DID.
           25               I ASKED HIM IF HE WISHED TO GIVE UP HIS RIGHT
           26   TO REMAIN SILENT AND TALK WITH US, WITH HIS ATTORNEY'S
           27   KNOWLEDGE.
           28               AND HE SAID, "YES."

                                                                          340

            1         Q.    AND THEN YOU SPOKE TO HIM?
            2         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
            3         Q.    I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO RELATE TO US WHAT HE
            4   TOLD YOU ABOUT THE EVENTS ON THE DATE OF JUNE 12, 1994.
            5         A.    OKAY.
            6               HE TOLD US DURING THE INTERVIEW THAT HE HAD
            7   BEEN DIVORCED FROM NICOLE BROWN FOR 2 YEARS; THAT ACTUALLY
            8   THEY HAD BEEN APART LONGER THAN THAT.
            9               HE SAID THAT THEY HAD BEEN ATTEMPTING TO GET
           10   BACK TOGETHER IN THE PAST YEAR, BUT ABOUT 3 WEEKS PRIOR TO
           11   THIS DATE THAT THEY HAD DECIDED THAT IT WASN'T WORKING AND
           12   THEY WERE JUST GOING TO GIVE IT UP.  IT JUST WASN'T GOING
           13   TO WORK ANYMORE.
           14               I THEN TOOK HIM TO THE EVENING OF JUNE 12 AND
           15   ASKED HIM ABOUT THAT EVENING.
           16               HE SAID THAT HE HAD GONE TO HIS DAUGHTER'S
           17   RECITAL THAT EVENING.  HE SAID THAT NICOLE AND THE
           18   CHILDREN WERE THERE AS WELL AS A NUMBER OF NICOLE'S FAMILY
           19   MEMBERS.
           20               HE SAID HE SAT APART FROM THEM AT THE RECITAL
           21   AND DID NOT TALK TO NICOLE THERE.
           22               HE SAID AFTER THE RECITAL, HE SPOKE WITH
           23   NICOLE'S MOTHER AND THAT SHE TOLD HIM THAT THEY WERE GOING
           24   TO DINNER AND INVITED HIM TO GO, WHICH HE DECLINED.
           25               HE SAID HE LEFT THE RECITAL APPROXIMATELY 6:30
           26   TO 7 THAT EVENING AND WENT BACK HOME.
           27               AND HE SAID HE WAS DRIVING HIS ROLLS ROYCE.
           28         Q.    TO THE RECITAL?

                                                                          341

            1         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
            2         Q.    SO HE DROVE HOME FROM THE RECITAL IN HIS ROLLS
            3   ROYCE?
            4         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
            5         Q.    WHAT HAPPENED WHEN HE GOT HOME?
            6         A.    HE SAID AFTER GETTING HOME, HE CHANGED CARS, HE
            7   GOT INTO HIS FORD BRONCO, BECAUSE HIS TELEPHONE WAS IN THE
            8   BRONCO, AND HE SAID HE WENT OUT DRIVING, ATTEMPTING TO FIND
            9   HIS GIRLFRIEND.
           10               HE SAID HE TRIED TO CALL HER AND DROVE BY THE
           11   LOCATION AND HE COULDN'T FIND HER.
           12               HE SAID HE RETURNED HOME, ARRIVING -- HE SAYS
           13   HE PARKED THE BRONCO SOME TIME AROUND 8 OR 9 THAT EVENING,
           14   HE SAID.
           15               AND HE SAID THE BRONCO WAS HIS CAR; THAT HE HAD
           16   PARKED IT AT THE LOCATION WHERE WE FOUND IT.
           17               HE SAID THAT AFTER HE ARRIVED HOME, THE ONLY
           18   PERSON THAT WAS THERE WAS "KATO" AND THAT HE HAD SPENT SOME
           19   TIME WITH "KATO"; THAT HE HAD GONE OUT A LITTLE LATER AND
           20   GOT SOME HAMBURGERS.
           21               HE SAID THAT THEY HAD DRIVEN THE ROLLS ROYCE
           22   WHEN THEY WENT OUT TO GET THE HAMBURGERS AND HE SAID --
           23   THEN HE SAID HE RETURNED TO THE HOUSE AND STARTED PREPARING
           24   TO LEAVE FOR A TRIP TO CHICAGO TO PLAY IN A GOLF TOURNAMENT
           25   FOR HERTZ.
           26         Q.    SO HE INDICATED HE HAD GONE TO THE RECITAL IN
           27   THE ROLLS ROYCE AND GOT HOME AROUND 7:00 O'CLOCK?
           28         A.    HE SAID HE LEFT THE RECITAL AROUND 6:30 TO 7,

                                                                          342

            1   YES, AND WENT DIRECTLY HOME.
            2         Q.    AND THAT HE SWITCHED INTO THE FORD
            3   BRONCO --
            4         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
            5         Q.    -- AND DROVE AROUND IN THAT FOR AWHILE?
            6         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
            7         Q.    THEN LATER ON THAT EVENING, HE WENT OUT WITH
            8   "KATO" IN THE ROLLS AGAIN TO GET THE BURGERS?
            9         A.    YES.
           10         Q.    DID HE INDICATE WHETHER ANYONE ELSE WAS
           11   PERMITTED TO DRIVE THE FORD BRONCO?
           12         A.    YES.
           13               HE SAID HE WAS THE PRIMARY DRIVER, BUT HE
           14   OCCASIONALLY LET HIS HOUSEKEEPER USE IT FOR ERRANDS.
           15               BUT HE SAID THAT HE HAD PARKED IT WHERE WE
           16   FOUND IT HIMSELF THAT EVENING ON THE STREET ON THE
           17   ROCKINGHAM SIDE.
           18         Q.    HIS HOUSEKEEPER, DID HE NAME HER AS GIGI?
           19         A.    YES.
           20         Q.    DID HE INDICATE TO YOU HOW MANY TIMES IT WAS
           21   THAT HE HAD GONE OUT OF THE HOUSE THAT NIGHT, THAT DAY?
           22         A.    YES.
           23               I BELIEVE HE HAD STATED THAT HE HAD GONE OUT
           24   TWICE, I BELIEVE IT WAS, ONCE TO BUY FLOWERS FOR HIS
           25   DAUGHTER FOR THE RECITAL AND THEN TO THE RECITAL WAS THE
           26   ONLY TWO TIMES HE HAD LEFT THE HOUSE THAT SUNDAY.
           27         Q.    DID HE INDICATE TO YOU HOW MANY TIMES HE DROVE
           28   THE FORD BRONCO ON THE DATE OF JUNE THE 12TH?

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            1         A.    YES; TWICE.
            2         Q.    DID HE TELL YOU WHEN THE LAST TIME WAS HE DROVE
            3   IT THAT DAY?
            4         A.    YES.
            5               AFTER ARRIVING HOME FROM THE RECITAL, HE SAID
            6   HE HAD GONE OUT IN THE FORD BRONCO TO LOOK FOR HIS
            7   GIRLFRIEND; THAT HE HAD DRIVEN AROUND AND TRIED TO CALL HER
            8   AND HAD RETURNED TO THE RESIDENCE AT SOME TIME AROUND
            9   8:00 O'CLOCK OR 9:00 O'CLOCK AND PARKED IT ON THE STREET.
           10               HE SAID HE FIRST DROVE INTO THE DRIVEWAY, TOOK
           11   SOME STUFF OUT OF IT AND THEN TOOK THAT INTO THE HOUSE AND
           12   THEN CAME BACK AND MOVED IT BACK ONTO THE STREET WHERE IT
           13   WAS PARKED.
           14         Q.    DID HE INDICATE TO YOU WHAT HE DID AFTER
           15   GETTING THE BURGERS WITH "KATO"?
           16         A.    I BELIEVE HE SAID HE WAS IN THE JACUZZI FOR
           17   AWHILE AND THEN STARTED PREPARING TO LEAVE FOR HIS 11:45
           18   FLIGHT TO CHICAGO.
           19         Q.    DID HE INDICATE IT WAS HE OR KATO THAT DID THE
           20   JACUZZI, IF YOU RECALL?
           21         A.    I DON'T REALLY RECALL AT THIS TIME.
           22         Q.    DID YOU ASK HIM ABOUT HOW HE GOT THE INJURY TO
           23   HIS HAND?
           24         A.    YES.
           25               WHEN I TALKED TO HIM ABOUT THE INJURY -- I HAD
           26   PREVIOUSLY NOTICED THE BANDAGE ON HIS LEFT HAND AND I ASKED
           27   HIM HOW HE HAD INJURED HIS HAND.
           28               AND HE SAID THAT HE DIDN'T REALLY KNOW.

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            1               HE SAYS HE MUST HAVE INJURED IT SOMETIME THAT
            2   EVENING WHILE HE WAS PREPARING TO LEAVE ON THE TRIP.
            3               HIS EXPLANATION WAS HE WAS VERY BUSY AND HE WAS
            4   RUSHING AROUND AND THAT HE MUST HAVE INJURED IT, BUT HE
            5   DIDN'T REALLY KNOW HOW HE HAD DONE THAT.
            6               THEN I TALKED TO HIM ABOUT -- OR WE TALKED TO
            7   HIM ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF HIS BLOOD BEING AT 875 SOUTH
            8   BUNDY.
            9               WE ASKED HIM WHEN HE HAD BEEN THERE LAST, AND
           10   HE SAID HE HAD LAST BEEN AT HER RESIDENCE, HE BELIEVED,
           11   ABOUT A WEEK PRIOR AND HAD BEEN IN HER HOUSE MAYBE 5 TO 7
           12   DAYS PRIOR.
           13               AND WE ASKED HIM, "WERE YOU INJURED OR ANYTHING
           14   WHILE YOU WERE OVER THERE?  COULD YOU HAVE BEEN DROPPING
           15   ANY BLOOD?"
           16               AND HE SAID, "NO," HE WASN'T INJURED AND HE
           17   COULDN'T HAVE BEEN DROPPING ANY BLOOD.
           18         Q.    DID HE INDICATE WHEN HE HAD GOTTEN THAT CUT?
           19         A.    YES; THE EVENING OF JUNE THE 12TH, SOMETIME
           20   BETWEEN THE RECITAL AND THE TIME HE LEFT THE HOME.
           21         Q.    BUT DID HE TELL YOU HOW THAT HAPPENED?
           22         A.    NO.
           23               HE SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW.  HE SAID HE COULDN'T
           24   REMEMBER HOW HE INJURED HIMSELF.
           25         Q.    DID HE INDICATE TO YOU THAT HE HAD DONE
           26   ANYTHING TO MAKE THE BLEEDING STOP BEFORE HE LEFT FOR
           27   CHICAGO WHILE HE WAS STILL IN HIS HOUSE?
           28         A.    WELL, YEAH.

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            1               HE INDICATED TO US WHEN I ASKED HIM ABOUT THE
            2   BLOOD DROPS THAT THE BLOOD DROPS WERE HIS AND THAT HE HAD
            3   NOTICED DURING THE EVENING THAT HE WAS BLEEDING AND THAT HE
            4   HAD GRABBED SOMETHING AND WRAPPED IT ON HIS HAND AND THE
            5   BLEEDING HAD STOPPED.
            6               AND THEN I ASKED HIM, "WELL, DID YOU INJURE
            7   YOURSELF ANY OTHER TIME OR WERE YOU HURT BACK IN CHICAGO?"
            8               AND HE SAYS, "WELL, YEAH, I BROKE A GLASS BACK
            9   THERE.  I WAS UPSET WHEN I GOT A CALL FROM YOU AND I MUST
           10   HAVE REINJURED MYSELF."
           11               AND HE SAID HE PUT BAND-AIDS ON HIS CUT BACK IN
           12   CHICAGO.
           13         Q.    SO HE PUT SOMETHING ON IT BOTH HERE AND IN
           14   CHICAGO?
           15         A.    YES.  BUT HE COULDN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY.
           16               HE SAYS, "I MUST HAVE GRABBED A TOWEL OR NAPKIN
           17   OR SOMETHING AND PUT IT ON MY HAND AND THE BLEEDING STOPPED
           18   WHILE I WAS HERE."
           19         Q.    WERE YOU PRESENT DURING THE SERVICE OF THE
           20   SEARCH WARRANT, SIR?
           21         A.    DURING A PORTION OF IT.  NOT THE ENTIRE TIME.
           22         Q.    WERE YOU MADE AWARE OR DID YOU REVIEW THE
           23   EVIDENCE THAT WAS SEIZED PURSUANT TO THAT SEARCH WARRANT?
           24         A.    YES, I DID.
           25         Q.    DID THE SEARCH WARRANT SPECIFICALLY DIRECT YOU
           26   TO LOOK FOR ITEMS CONTAINING BLOOD?
           27         A.    YES.
           28         Q.    ANY MATERIAL OR SUBSTANCE OF ANY KIND THAT

                                                                          346

            1   MIGHT CONTAIN BLOOD?
            2         A.    YES.
            3         Q.    DID YOU OBSERVE ANY NAPKINS OR TOWELS THAT
            4   CONTAINED FRESH BLOOD STAINS?
            5         A.    NO.
            6         Q.    DID YOU INQUIRE OF MR. SIMPSON AS TO WHAT
            7   CLOTHES HE WORE ON SUNDAY, JUNE THE 12TH?
            8         A.    YES, I DID.
            9         Q.    AND WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
           10         A.    HE SAID THAT DURING THE DAY HE WORE CLOTHES
           11   THAT WERE LIKE HE WEARS ON THE GOLF COURSE, A WHITE SHIRT,
           12   DARK SLACKS.
           13               AND I ALSO ASKED HIM WHAT HE HAD WORN TO THE
           14   RECITAL THAT EVENING, AND HE SAID HE HAD WORN, HE BELIEVED,
           15   A T-SHIRT, PAIR OF DARK SLACKS AND SOME REEBOK TENNIS
           16   SHOES.
           17         Q.    AT THE TIME THAT YOU INTERVIEWED HIM, SIR, WHAT
           18   WAS HE WEARING?
           19         A.    HE HAD ON A WHITE LIKE GOLF SHIRT, A PAIR OF
           20   BLACK SLACKS, DARK COLORED SLACKS, AND A PAIR OF DARK

           21   COLORED SLIP-ON SANDAL TYPE SHOES.
           22         Q.    AND SO WHEN YOU ASKED HIM IF THE BLOOD YOU
           23   FOUND DRIPPED AROUND THE HOUSE WAS HIS, WHAT WAS HIS REPLY?
           24         A.    YES, IT WAS.
           25         Q.    AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE INTERVIEW, SIR, DID
           26   YOU DO SOMETHING WITH RESPECT TO MEMORIALIZING THE
           27   CONDITION OF HIS FINGER?
           28         A.    YES, I DID.

                                                                          347

            1         Q.    WHAT DID YOU DO?
            2         A.    I ASKED HIM IF WE COULD TAKE HIM AND PHOTOGRAPH
            3   THE FINGER.
            4               AND HE STATED, "YES."
            5               SO I WALKED HIM DIRECTLY TO THE PHOTOGRAPHY LAB
            6   AND HAD THAT DONE.
            7         Q.    DID YOU ALSO ATTEMPT TO RETRIEVE A BLOOD SAMPLE
            8   FROM HIM?
            9         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           10         Q.    WAS THAT DONE AT THE SAME TIME?
           11         A.    YES.
           12               A VOLUNTARY BLOOD SAMPLE WAS TAKEN AT THE JAIL
           13   DIVISION, DISPENSARY SECTION.
           14         MS. CLARK:  MADAME FOREMAN, I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THE
           15   NEXT EXHIBIT, WHICH IS A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS -A THROUGH
           16   -C, PEOPLE'S 32.
           17         THE FOREPERSON:  SO ORDERED.
           18                (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 32.)
           19         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  SHOWING YOU NOW PEOPLE'S 32,
           20   SIR.
           21               CAN YOU TELL ME IN PHOTOGRAPH -A IF YOU KNOW
           22   WHAT IS THAT A PICTURE OF?
           23         A.    YES.
           24               THAT'S A PICTURE OF THE LEFT HAND, MIDDLE
           25   FINGER OF MR. SIMPSON, THE INJURY ON HIS HAND.
           26         Q.    IS THAT A PICTURE TAKEN AT YOUR DIRECTION, SIR?
           27         A.    THAT IS CORRECT; YES.
           28         Q.    WHAT ABOUT -B AND -C?

                                                                          348

            1         A.    THOSE ARE THE TWO GLOVES; ONE FOUND AT THE
            2   CRIME SCENE, ONE FOUND AT THE HOME OF MR. SIMPSON.
            3         Q.    I'M SHOWING YOU PHOTOGRAPHS THAT HAVE BEEN
            4   MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 21.  THESE ARE PHOTOGRAPHS -A THROUGH
            5   -D.
            6               CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT IS
            7   DEPICTED IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS.
            8         A.    YES, I RECOGNIZE THAT.
            9         Q.    WHAT IS IT?
           10         A.    THOSE ARE PICTURES THAT WERE TAKEN OF A KNIFE
           11   THAT I HAVE IN MY POSSESSION THAT I HAD PURCHASED FROM ROSS
           12   CUTLERY IN LOS ANGELES.
           13         Q.    AT THE TIME THAT YOU PURCHASED THAT KNIFE, SIR,
           14   DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THE PERSONS THAT OWNED THE
           15   STORE AND A SALESPERSON THERE?
           16         A.    I DID NOT PERSONALLY, NO.
           17         Q.    WAS IT SOMEONE WHO DID THAT AT YOUR DIRECTION?
           18         A.    I DISPATCHED DETECTIVES TO THAT LOCATION, YES.
           19         Q.    IS THAT KNIFE DEPICTED IN THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS,
           20   THE ONE THAT YOU DIRECTED BE PURCHASED?
           21         A.    THAT'S CORRECT; YES.
           22         Q.    AND YOU HAD THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN.
           23               IS THAT RIGHT?
           24         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           25         Q.    NOW, THE BLOOD SAMPLE THAT WAS REMOVED FROM
           26   MR. SIMPSON, WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THAT?
           27         A.    I PERSONALLY HAND-CARRIED THAT TO THE
           28   CRIMINALIST WHO WAS WORKING ON THE CASE, DENNIS FUNG, AND

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            1   GAVE IT TO HIM TO BE BOOKED WITH THE OTHER EVIDENCE.
            2         Q.    AND THE BLOOD THAT WAS EXTRACTED FROM THE
            3   VICTIMS DURING THE AUTOPSY PERFORMED BY DR. GOLDEN, DID YOU
            4   DO SOMETHING WITH RESPECT TO THOSE BLOOD SAMPLES?
            5         A.    YES, I DID.
            6               I PICKED THOSE UP AT THE CORONER'S OFFICE AND
            7   HAND-DELIVERED THOSE TO THE SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION LAB
            8   AND TURNED THEM OVER TO COLIN YAMAUCHI, I BELIEVE IS THE
            9   WAY IT IS PRONOUNCED, WHO IS THE ANALYST WHO IS WORKING ON
           10   THE CASE.
           11         Q.    SIR, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE TERM "D.R.
           12   NUMBER"?
           13         A.    YES, I AM.
           14         Q.    CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THAT IS.
           15         A.    SURE.
           16               THAT'S A NUMBER THAT'S ASSIGNED TO ANY CRIME
           17   REPORT THAT IS GENERATED IN THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES AND
           18   GIVES US A QUICK REFERENCE THAT ALWAYS IDENTIFIES THAT
           19   SPECIFIC REPORT THAT IS DONE BY THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.
           20         Q.    WHEN EVIDENCE IS COLLECTED AND BOOKED INTO
           21   PROPERTY, IS IT ASSIGNED A NUMBER?
           22         A.    IT IT'S BOOKED UNDER THE D.R. NUMBER THAT IS
           23   BOUGHT BY THE OFFICERS THAT MAKE THE ACTUAL REPORT.
           24         Q.    SO ALL OF THE EVIDENCE THAT WAS COLLECTED IN
           25   THIS CASE, WAS IT BOOKED UNDER THE SAME D.R. NUMBER?
           26         A.    YES.
           27         Q.    DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT NUMBER IS, SIR?
           28         A.    ACTUALLY, THERE ARE TWO NUMBERS.

                                                                          350

            1               I NOTICED THE MAIN NUMBER, YES.
            2               I CAN TELL YOU BOTH NUMBERS.
            3         Q.    WHAT IS THE MAIN NUMBER?
            4         A.    94-0817431 IS THE MAIN NUMBER.
            5               THE CORRESPONDING NUMBER IS 94-0817432.
            6         Q.    WHAT IS THE 32 NUMBER FOR?
            7         A.    EACH NUMBER, THE ORIGINAL NUMBER -- THE 31
            8   NUMBER IS THE NUMBER ASSIGNED TO NICOLE BROWN, VICTIM; THE
            9   32 NUMBER IS THE NUMBER ASSIGNED TO RONALD GOLDMAN, VICTIM.
           10         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO THE EVIDENCE COLLECTED -- FIRST
           11   OF ALL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS, SIR:
           12               AT THE TIME YOU WERE PRESENT AT THE ORIGINAL
           13   CRIME SCENE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY, DID YOU OBSERVE EVIDENCE
           14   BEING COLLECTED AND GATHERED AT THAT LOCATION?
           15         A.    YES; THAT'S CORRECT.
           16         Q.    WHEN THAT EVIDENCE WAS RECOVERED, WAS IT BOOKED
           17   UNDER A D.R. NUMBER?
           18         A.    YES.
           19         Q.    DO YOU KNOW WHICH ONE?
           20         A.    IT SHOULD BE BOOKED UNDER THE MASTER, 31, WHICH
           21   IS NICOLE BROWN'S D.R. NUMBER OR CRIME REPORT NUMBER.
           22         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO THE EVIDENCE THAT WAS RECOVERED
           23   FROM MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE, WHAT WAS THAT EVIDENCE BOOKED
           24   UNDER?  WHAT D.R. NUMBER?
           25         A.    IT SHOULD BE BOOKED UNDER THE SAME MASTER D.R.
           26               WE ONLY USE ONE MASTER FOR EACH OCCURRENCE,
           27   WHETHER THERE ARE FIVE OR SIX LOCATIONS OR WHAT HAVE YOU.
           28         Q.    SO THE 31 NUMBER AGAIN?

                                                                          351

            1         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
            2         Q.    WHEN YOU TURNED OVER THE BLOOD SAMPLE TAKEN
            3   FROM THE SUSPECT, MR. SIMPSON, AS WELL AS THE BLOOD
            4   EXTRACTED FROM THE VICTIMS, DID YOU DO SO -- DID YOU THEN
            5   PACKAGE IT UNDER THE SAME D.R. NUMBER?
            6         A.    THE PACKAGING WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE BY THE
            7   CRIMINALIST OR THE PEOPLE THAT WERE ANALYZING THE EVIDENCE.
            8         Q.    AND THEN WOULD IT BE STANDARD OPERATING
            9   PROCEDURE TO PUT THE D.R. NUMBER ON THAT PACKAGE?
           10         A.    YES.
           11         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO THE BLOOD TAKEN FROM THE
           12   VICTIMS BY DR. GOLDEN DURING THE AUTOPSY, WOULD THAT ALSO
           13   HAVE THE SAME D.R. NUMBER ON IT?
           14         A.    YES.
           15         Q.    DID THE BLOOD SAMPLE TAKEN FROM THE SUSPECT
           16   THAT YOU DELIVERED TO DENNIS FUNG, DID IT BEAR THE D.R.
           17   NUMBER FOR THIS CASE?
           18               WAS THAT DONE?
           19         A.    I WOULD HAVE TO MAKE AN ASSUMPTION, YES,
           20   BECAUSE I DELIVERED IT DIRECTLY TO THE CRIMINALIST AT THE
           21   CRIME SCENE BOOKING THE OTHER EVIDENCE AND TOLD HIM THAT
           22   THIS WAS PART OF THE EVIDENCE THAT WENT.
           23               SO I WOULD HAVE TO SAY, "YES."
           24         Q.    SO IT WAS HIS RESPONSIBILITY TO PACKAGE IT AND
           25   AFFIX THE D.R. NUMBER TO IT?
           26         A.    EXACTLY.
           27               HE WAS IN CHARGE OF THE EVIDENCE.
           28         Q.    AND WITH RESPECT TO THE BLOOD EXTRACTED FROM

                                                                          352

            1   THE VICTIMS DURING AUTOPSY, DID YOU PACKAGE THAT AND TURN
            2   IT OVER TO MR. YAMAUCHI?
            3         A.    I DIDN'T PACKAGE IT.
            4               I TURNED IT OVER TO HIM WITH THE INSTRUCTIONS
            5   IT WAS TO BE ANALYZED AND TURNED OVER TO MR. FUNG, WHO IS
            6   THE CRIMINALIST WHO WAS DOING ALL OF THE PACKAGING AND
            7   BOOKING OF THE ACTUAL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.
            8         Q.    YOU ATTENDED THE AUTOPSY.
            9               IS THAT CORRECT, SIR?
           10         A.    YES, THE AUTOPSY ON BOTH VICTIMS.
           11         Q.    WERE YOU PRESENT WHEN BLOOD WAS EXTRACTED FROM
           12   THEM?
           13         A.    YES, I WAS.
           14         Q.    SO DID YOU PERSONALLY OBSERVED THE BLOOD
           15   EXTRACTED FROM NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON DURING THE AUTOPSY?
           16         A.    YES, I DID.
           17         Q.    THAT BLOOD WAS THEN HANDED TO YOU?
           18         A.    NO.
           19               THE BLOOD WAS TAKEN BY THE DOCTOR, DR. GOLDEN,
           20   AND THE DOCTOR MAINTAINS CONTROL OF THAT BLOOD AND IT GOES
           21   TO THE LABORATORY OR TO THEIR EVIDENCE SECTION.
           22               I PERSONALLY PICKED UP THE BLOOD FROM THEIR
           23   EVIDENCE SECTION.
           24         Q.    DID YOU OBSERVE THE MANNER IN WHICH DR. GOLDEN
           25   PACKAGED IT BEFORE SENDING IT TO THE LAB?
           26         A.    YES, I DID.
           27         Q.    AND WERE YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE THAT IT WAS THE
           28   SAME PACKAGE THAT YOU PICKED UP FROM THE LAB?

                                                                          353

            1         A.    YES.
            2         Q.    WHEN DR. GOLDEN TOOK IT TO THE LAB INITIALLY,
            3   DID YOU FOLLOW HIM TO THE LAB OR DID YOU GO TO THE LAB
            4   LATER?
            5         A.    NO, I WENT TO THE LAB LATER.
            6               I DIDN'T FOLLOW THE DOCTOR TO THE LAB.
            7         Q.    DID YOU ALSO OBSERVE THE REMOVAL OF THE BLOOD
            8   FROM MR. RONALD GOLDMAN?
            9         A.    YES.
           10         Q.    THAT WAS DONE BY DR. GOLDEN AS WELL AS THE
           11   AUTOPSY.
           12               IS THAT CORRECT?
           13         A.    YES; THAT'S CORRECT.
           14         Q.    DID YOU OBSERVE THE MANNER IN WHICH HE PACKAGED
           15   THAT BLOOD AS WELL?
           16         A.    YES.
           17         Q.    WAS THAT BLOOD ALSO TAKEN BY HIM TO THE LAB?
           18         A.    YES.
           19         Q.    DID YOU THEN RESPOND TO THE LAB AND RETRIEVE
           20   THAT SAME ITEM OF BLOOD PACKAGED IN THE MANNER YOU SAW
           21   DR. GOLDEN PACKAGE IT DURING THE AUTOPSY?
           22         A.    THAT'S CORRECT; YES.
           23         Q.    THEN YOU TURNED BOTH OF THOSE ITEMS OVER TO
           24   MR. YAMAUCHI?
           25         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           26         Q.    CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE MANNER IN WHICH THOSE
           27   ITEMS WERE PACKAGED, SIR.
           28         A.    CERTAINLY.

                                                                          354

            1               IT WAS A SMALL GLASS VIAL WITH A PURPLE TOP AND
            2   IT HAD A CORONER'S EVIDENCE TAG ON IT IN WHICH WAS AFFIXED
            3   THE CORONER'S CASE NUMBER FOR EACH VICTIM.
            4         MS. CLARK:  I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
            5         THE FOREPERSON:  IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
            6   HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
            7               THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
            8   SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
            9
           10                         (SHORT PAUSE.)
           11
           12         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  SIR, YOU INDICATED THAT YOU
           13   MADE CONTACT WITH A PERSON THAT IDENTIFIED HERSELF AS
           14   ARNELL.
           15               IS THAT CORRECT?
           16         A.    YES.
           17         Q.    ARNELL SIMPSON?
           18         A.    YES.
           19         Q.    YOU SAY SHE ALLOWED YOU INTO THE HOUSE?
           20         A.    YES.
           21         Q.    WAS THAT BY HER OWN CONSENT, WAS THAT
           22   VOLUNTARY?
           23         A.    YES.
           24         Q.    YOU INDICATED AT ONE POINT DURING YOUR
           25   TESTIMONY, SIR, THAT YOU LOOKED AROUND THE GROUNDS FOR
           26   OTHER VICTIMS.
           27         A.    ABSOLUTELY, YES.
           28         Q.    WAS THAT BEFORE OR AFTER YOU SPOKE TO ARNELL

                                                                          355

            1   SIMPSON?
            2         A.    WELL, THAT WAS DURING THE PROCESS OF THE WHOLE
            3   TIME.
            4               WE HADN'T EVEN SEEN THE INTERIOR OF THE HOUSE
            5   AT THAT POINT, SO WE DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER SOMEONE HAD BEEN
            6   MURDERED THERE BECAUSE OF THE BLOOD WE SAW OR WHAT HAVE
            7   YOU.
            8               SO WE WERE TRYING TO ENSURE THAT EVERYTHING WAS
            9   OKAY AT THAT LOCATION.
           10         Q.    SO DID THAT -- I'M NOT CLEAR ON THE TIMING OF
           11   THIS.
           12               DID YOU LOOK AROUND THE GROUNDS BEFORE YOU
           13   TALKED TO HER AND AFTER YOU TALKED TO HER?
           14         A.    YES.
           15         Q.    OKAY.
           16               DID SHE EVER OBJECT TO YOUR PRESENCE OR YOUR
           17   SEARCHING AROUND THE GROUNDS?
           18         A.    NEVER.
           19         Q.    SHE WAS PRESENT WHEN YOU DID SO?
           20         A.    YES.
           21         Q.    SHE INVITED YOU INTO THE HOUSE?
           22         A.    YES.
           23         Q.    WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT
           24   MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE?
           25         A.    I WOULD SAY SHORTLY AFTER 5:00 O'CLOCK.
           26               I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT TIME, BUT SHORTLY AFTER
           27   5 IN THE MORNING.
           28         Q.    AT WHAT POINT, IF YOU RECALL, DID YOU SEE THE

                                                                          356

            1   GLOVE?
            2         A.    WITHIN A VERY SHORT TIME OF GOING OVER THE WALL
            3   TO GAIN ENTRANCE TO THE HOME.
            4         Q.    WAS IT BEFORE OR AFTER YOU SPOKE TO ARNELL
            5   SIMPSON?
            6         A.    WELL, WHAT YOU ARE ASKING ME IS -- THERE WERE
            7   FOUR DETECTIVES THERE.
            8               A COUPLE OF US WERE ATTEMPTING TO FIND PEOPLE
            9   IN THE HOME, AND TWO OF THE OTHER DETECTIVES WERE LOOKING
           10   AROUND THE HOME TO ENSURE THAT THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG AND
           11   THAT THERE WAS NO FORCED ENTRY ANYWHERE OR NOBODY LYING
           12   DOWN IN THE DRIVEWAYS OR ANYBODY HURT OR ANYTHING.
           13               AFTER SPEAKING WITH ARNELL SIMPSON, I WAS
           14   DIRECTED BACK TO THIS LOCATION BY A WEST L.A. DETECTIVE WHO
           15   HAD OBSERVED THIS GLOVE AT THE SIDE OF THE HOME.
           16         Q.    SO WHILE YOU WERE SPEAKING TO MISS SIMPSON,
           17   ANOTHER DETECTIVE WAS LOOKING FOR VICTIMS?
           18         A.    THIS WAS ALL IN PROGRESS AT THE SAME TIME.
           19         Q.    THEN AFTER YOU COMPLETED YOUR DISCUSSION WITH
           20   HER IS WHEN YOU WERE NOTIFIED OF THE GLOVE?
           21         A.    YES; EXACTLY.
           22         Q.    WAS IT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAT?
           23         A.    YES, WITHIN A MINUTE OR TWO.
           24         Q.    AT THAT POINT, DID YOU MAKE SOME DETERMINATION
           25   ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE LOCATION OF 360 ROCKINGHAM AVENUE?
           26         A.    YES.
           27               AFTER I WENT BACK AND LOOKED AT THE GLOVE AND
           28   CAME BACK AROUND, I SAW SOME BLOOD IN THE DRIVEWAY.  AND AT

                                                                          357

            1   THAT POINT IS WHEN I MADE A DETERMINATION THAT WE HAD A
            2   POSSIBLE CRIME SCENE.
            3               I SECURED THE RESIDENCE AND LEFT THAT LOCATION
            4   TO EXECUTE A SEARCH WARRANT FOR IT.
            5         Q.    AND NO FURTHER SEARCH WAS CONDUCTED --
            6         A.    NO.
            7         Q.    -- UNTIL THE SEARCH WARRANT WAS SIGNED?
            8         A.    UNTIL IT WAS SIGNED AND RETURNED BACK TO THE
            9   LOCATION.
           10         Q.    SO BY THE TIME YOU SAW THE BLOOD, WAS THE SKY,
           11   THE STREET STARTING TO GET A LITTLE LIGHTER?
           12         A.    IT HAD BEGUN LIGHTENING UP.
           13               IT WAS AFTER 5:00 O'CLOCK WHEN WE GOT THERE.
           14   WE SPENT QUITE A BIT OF TIME BEFORE WE EVER GOT ONTO THE
           15   GROUNDS ATTEMPTING TO AROUSE SOMEONE IN THE HOME BY THE
           16   INTERCOM AND BY TELEPHONE.
           17               SO WE WERE THERE FOR A PERIOD OF TIME BEFORE WE
           18   EVER MADE ENTRANCE ONTO THE GROUNDS, AND IT WAS BEGINNING
           19   TO LIGHTEN UP AT THAT TIME.
           20               YEAH, IT WAS LIGHT ENOUGH TO SEE, SURE.
           21         Q.    DID THE GLOVE THAT YOU SAW APPEAR TO BE BLOODY?
           22         A.    YES.
           23         Q.    WERE YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE WHAT SIZE THESE
           24   GLOVES WERE?
           25         A.    NO; NO.
           26               THEY WERE MEN'S GLOVES.  THEY LOOKED LIKE
           27   GLOVES THAT MAYBE WOULD FIT MY HANDS, AND I HAVE LARGE
           28   HANDS.

                                                                          358

            1               THEY WERE MEN'S GLOVES.  THAT'S ALL I CAN TELL.
            2         Q.    CAN YOU HOLD YOUR HAND UP, SIR.
            3         A.    SURE.
            4         Q.    CAN YOU ESTIMATE FOR US THE SPAN FROM THE TIP
            5   OF YOUR SECOND FINGER TO THE EDGE OF YOUR PALM.
            6               WE HAVE A RULER.
            7         A.    WE HAVE A RULER.
            8               IT LOOKS LIKE TO THE BACK OF MY PALM IS 8
            9   INCHES FROM THE TIP OF MY FINGER TO THE BACK OF MY PALM.
           10         Q.    THANK YOU, SIR.
           11               WHEN YOU WERE AT THE CRIME SCENE AT 875 SOUTH
           12   BUNDY, HOW DID YOU MANAGE TO AVOID STEPPING IN THE BLOOD
           13   AND MAKING FOOTPRINTS WHEN YOU WERE EXAMINING THE CRIME
           14   SCENE?
           15         A.    I STAYED BACK FROM THE ACTUAL PHYSICAL BLOOD
           16   AREA.
           17               THERE WAS A WALKWAY, OR THERE WAS AN AREA WHERE
           18   YOU COULD GET INTO THE FOLIAGE TO GET UP ADJACENT TO THE
           19   TWO VICTIMS THAT WERE LYING IN THE WALKWAY AND OFF THE
           20   WALKWAY.
           21               AND I WENT UP IN THE FOLIAGE AREA AND HAD A
           22   VERY GOOD FLASHLIGHT AND WAS LOOKING AT EVERYTHING AT THE
           23   SCENE.
           24               I NEVER PHYSICALLY WALKED INTO THE SCENE UNTIL
           25   AFTER THE BODIES WERE REMOVED.  BUT I WAS VERY, VERY CLOSE
           26   ADJACENT TO THE SCENE.
           27         Q.    IN AN EFFORT TO AVOID THE CONTAMINATION OF THE
           28   CRIME SCENE, ARE THE NUMBER OF PERSONS PERMITTED INSIDE THE

                                                                          359

            1   TAPE OR CLOSE TO THE BODIES OR THE EVIDENCE VERY LIMITED?
            2         A.    EXTREMELY LIMITED, YES.
            3         Q.    AND IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, PRIOR OR BEFORE
            4   THE CRIMINALIST ARRIVED TO COLLECT THE EVIDENCE, CAN YOU
            5   TELL ME WHO, IF ANYONE, WAS PERMITTED NEAR THE BODIES OR
            6   THE EVIDENCE OR THE BLOOD OR THE FOOTPRINTS AT THE CRIME
            7   SCENE?
            8         A.    AT THE TIME I WAS THERE, THERE WAS ONLY THREE
            9   PEOPLE THAT EVEN APPROACHED CLOSE.
           10               THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN MYSELF, MY PARTNER,
           11   DETECTIVE LANGE, AND THE SUPERVISING DETECTIVE FROM WEST
           12   L.A. DETECTIVES, WHO WAS RON PHILLIPS.
           13               NO ONE ELSE THAT I SAW WAS IN THAT CRIME SCENE.
           14         Q.    NOW, THE OTHER TWO PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE
           15   REFERRING TO, THE OTHER TWO DETECTIVES, YOUR PARTNER AND
           16   DETECTIVE RON PHILLIPS, DID THEY WALK AROUND -- DID THEY
           17   WALK INTO THE BLOODY AREA AND NEAR WHERE THE FOOTPRINTS AND
           18   BLOOD DROPS WERE?
           19         A.    NO.
           20         Q.    DID THEY STAY BACK THE WAY YOU DID?
           21         A.    ABSOLUTELY.
           22         Q.    AT WHAT TIME ON JUNE 13 DID MR. SIMPSON ARRIVE
           23   HOME?
           24         A.    IT WAS APPROXIMATELY NOON, OR JUST VERY, VERY
           25   SHORTLY THEREAFTER.
           26         Q.    NOW, THE CUT ON MR. SIMPSON'S FINGER, IT WAS ON
           27   THE LEFT FINGER.
           28               IS THAT CORRECT?

                                                                          360

            1         A.    THAT'S CORRECT; YES.
            2         Q.    AND THE GLOVE FOUND AT THE CRIME SCENE,
            3   875 SOUTH BUNDY, WAS WHAT HAND?
            4         A.    THE LEFT HAND.
            5         Q.    DID YOU EXAMINE THAT LEFT GLOVE TO DETERMINE
            6   WHETHER IT WAS CUT ON THE FINGER AS WELL?
            7         A.    NO.
            8               I WOULDN'T DO ANY EXAMINATION OF IT.  THAT
            9   WOULD BE DONE BY THE SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION PEOPLE.
           10         Q.    DID YOU SEARCH FOR BLOOD DROPS ALONG THE SOUTH
           11   SIDE OF THE GARAGE, THE AREA WHERE THE BLOOD WAS FOUND?
           12         A.    YES.
           13         Q.    AND DID YOU FIND ANY?
           14         A.    NO.
           15         Q.    WAS A TRAIL -- WAS THE TRAIL OF BLOOD DROPS
           16   THAT YOU FOUND AT THE ROCKINGHAM AVENUE RESIDENCE
           17   CONTINUOUS FROM THE BRONCO TO THE FRONT DOOR?
           18         A.    YEAH.
           19               THERE WERE SEVERAL BLOOD DROPS THAT STARTED
           20   AROUND THE SIDEWALK AREA AT THE BACK END OF THE VEHICLE
           21   AND -- I CAN'T TELL YOU EXACTLY HOW MANY.
           22               THERE WAS A NUMBER GOING UP THE DRIVEWAY AND
           23   THEN, AS I RECALL, THERE WERE THREE INSIDE THE FRONT DOOR.
           24         Q.    WERE THEY WIDELY SPACED OR DO YOU RECALL?
           25         A.    THEY WERE NOT CLOSE TOGETHER.  THEY WERE PRETTY
           26   WIDELY SPACED.
           27         Q.    DID YOU SEARCH THE LUGGAGE MR. SIMPSON BROUGHT
           28   BACK WITH HIM FROM CHICAGO?

                                                                          361

            1         A.    YES.
            2         Q.    DID YOU SEE ALL OF IT, EVERYTHING THAT HE
            3   BROUGHT BACK?
            4         A.    EVERYTHING THAT HE HAD IN HIS POSSESSION WHEN I
            5   FIRST SAW HIM, YES.
            6         Q.    HOW MANY BAGS DID HE HAVE IN HIS POSSESSION
            7   WHEN YOU SAW HIM WHEN HE RETURNED FROM CHICAGO?
            8         A.    ONE TRAVEL BAG.
            9         Q.    WHEN YOU SAY, "TRAVEL BAG," IS THAT A GARMENT
           10   BAG OR DUFFEL BAG?
           11         A.    LIKE A GUCCI DUFFEL BAG, LEATHER DUFFEL BAG
           12   TYPE THING.
           13         Q.    WHEN YOU SEARCHED IT, DID YOU DO SO WITH HIS
           14   PERMISSION?
           15         A.    YES.
           16         Q.    YOU ASKED HIS PERMISSION TO SEARCH IT?
           17         A.    YES.
           18         Q.    DO YOU HAVE PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE, SIR, OF HOW
           19   MANY PIECES OF LUGGAGE MR. SIMPSON LEFT CHICAGO WITH?
           20         A.    PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE?
           21         Q.    RIGHT.
           22         A.    NO.
           23         Q.    AFTER YOU MADE CONTACT WITH MISS ARNELL SIMPSON
           24   AND SPOKE TO MR. SIMPSON ON THE PHONE, WHAT DID SHE DO,
           25   MISS ARNELL SIMPSON?
           26         A.    SHE IMMEDIATELY CALLED ALAN COWLINGS TO RESPOND
           27   TO THE LOCATION.
           28         Q.    DID SHE STAY IN THE GUEST HOUSE?

                                                                          362

            1         A.    NO.  SHE STAYED IN THE MAIN HOUSE.
            2         Q.    SHE STAYED IN THE LOWER PORTION?
            3         A.    YEAH, IN THE MAIN HOME THERE.
            4         Q.    WAS HER HOUSE SEARCHED, HER GUEST HOUSE
            5   SEARCHED?
            6         A.    THE ENTIRE AREA WAS SEARCHED AFTER THE SEARCH
            7   WARRANT WAS BROUGHT TO THE LOCATION.
            8         Q.    SO, YES, IT WAS?
            9         A.    YES.
           10         Q.    COULD YOU DESCRIBE THE CUTS ON MR. SIMPSON'S
           11   FINGER.
           12         A.    YES.
           13               AS I RECALL, THERE WAS ONE CUT THAT RAN
           14   HORIZONTAL ON THE LARGER KNUCKLE OF THE FINGER.  THE ACTUAL
           15   KNUCKLE ITSELF APPEARED TO BE SWOLLEN FROM THE INJURY.

           16               AND THEN BELOW THAT, THERE WAS A SMALLER CUT,
           17   WHAT APPEARED TO BE A SMALLER INCISION-TYPE CUT, THAT RAN
           18   ACROSS THE FINGER AND DOWN A LITTLE BIT.
           19               IT WASN'T AS LARGE AS THE ONE UP ON THE
           20   KNUCKLE.
           21         Q.    THE ONE ON THE KNUCKLE, THEN, WAS THE LARGER
           22   ONE?
           23         A.    YES.
           24               IT WAS DEEP ENOUGH THAT THE KNUCKLE WAS
           25   SWOLLEN, APPEARED TO BE SWOLLEN FROM THE INJURY.
           26         Q.    DID YOU OBSERVE ANY NICKS TO THE GLOVES, ANY
           27   NICKS OR TEARS TO THE GLOVES AT ALL?
           28         A.    NO.  I NEVER REALLY GOT CLOSE ENOUGH TO THEM.

                                                                          363

            1               I SAW THE ONE AT THE SCENE AND SAW THE ONE AT
            2   THE HOUSE.  I MADE SURE THEY WERE SECURED.  THEY APPEARED
            3   TO BE THE SAME GLOVE, OPPOSITE HAND, TO ME.
            4               AND I LEFT THEM AS THEY LAY FOR THE CRIMINALIST
            5   TO PICK UP AND ANALYZATION TO BE DONE BY THE SCIENTIFIC
            6   INVESTIGATION DIVISION.
            7         Q.    SO THAT WAS REALLY NOT YOUR --
            8         A.    THAT'S NOT PART OF MY FUNCTION TO ACTUALLY
            9   ANALYZE THE EVIDENCE.
           10         Q.    WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MR. SIMPSON, DID HE MENTION
           11   CALLING MR. KAELIN TO TURN ON THE BURGLAR ALARM AT THE
           12   HOUSE?
           13         A.    I DON'T RECALL.
           14         Q.    YOU DON'T RECALL IF HE TOLD YOU ABOUT THAT?
           15         A.    NO, I DON'T RECALL IF HE TOLD ME THAT OR NOT.
           16         Q.    DO YOU RECALL IF HE TOLD YOU HOW KAELIN WAS
           17   ABLE TO ENTER THE HOUSE TO TURN ON THE BURGLAR ALARM?
           18         A.    I DON'T THINK I HAD A DISCUSSION WITH HIM ABOUT
           19   THAT.
           20               I DON'T RECALL THAT AT ALL.
           21         THE FOREPERSON:  ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
           22   TO BE SUBMITTED FROM THE GRAND JURORS?
           23               IF THEY WOULD SUBMIT THEM AT THIS TIME, PLEASE.
           24
           25                         (SHORT PAUSE.)
           26
           27         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  WERE THERE ANY OTHER BLOOD
           28   DROPS IN THE HOUSE BESIDES THE ONE, TWO OR THREE THAT YOU

                                                                          364

            1   SAW IN THE DOORWAY, IF YOU KNOW?
            2         A.    I DON'T KNOW THAT.
            3         Q.    WHEN YOU ENCOUNTERED MR. SIMPSON UPON HIS
            4   RETURN FROM CHICAGO, DID YOU SEE HIM IN POSSESSION OF ANY
            5   GOLF CLUBS?
            6         A.    NO.
            7         Q.    DID YOU EVER SEE ANY GOLF CLUBS -- STRIKE
            8   THAT.
            9               DID YOU OBSERVE ANY BLOOD ON THE STEERING WHEEL
           10   OF THE BRONCO WHEN YOU SAW THE BLOOD ON THE DOOR HANDLE?
           11         A.    I DON'T RECALL SEEING IT ON THE STEERING WHEEL,
           12   BUT THERE WAS OTHER BLOOD INSIDE THE VEHICLE THAT I SAW,
           13   YES.
           14         Q.    DO YOU RECALL SEEING SOME BLOOD ON THE CONSOLE
           15   OF THE VEHICLE?
           16         A.    YES.
           17               THERE WAS BLOOD ON THE CONSOLE AND BLOOD ON THE
           18   INSIDE OF THE DRIVER'S DOOR OF THE VEHICLE THAT YOU COULD
           19   SEE FROM THE OUTSIDE.
           20         Q.    WHAT ABOUT THE FLOOR OF THE VEHICLE WHERE THE
           21   DRIVER WOULD SIT, PLACE HIS FEET?
           22               WAS THERE ANY BLOOD THERE?
           23         A.    I COULD NOT SEE THAT.
           24               THERE WAS A HAT LYING ON THE FLOORBOARD WHERE
           25   THE DRIVER WOULD HAVE HIS FEET.  I COULDN'T ACTUALLY SEE
           26   THE FLOORBOARD.
           27               AND I HAD THE VEHICLE IMPOUNDED FOR
           28   SAFEKEEPING, AND THAT WAS DONE BY THE CRIMINALIST AGAIN.

                                                                          365

            1         Q.    DID YOU SEE BLOODY FOOTPRINTS LEADING AWAY FROM
            2   THE CRIME SCENE, 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
            3         A.    YES, I DID.
            4         Q.    IF YOU WERE ABLE TO LOCATE SHOES THAT MATCHED
            5   THAT PATTERN, WOULD THAT BE OF ASSISTANCE TO YOU IN THE
            6   INVESTIGATION?
            7         A.    YES.
            8         Q.    IS THERE ANY OTHER INFORMATION THAT YOU CAN
            9   GAIN FROM EXAMINATION OF THOSE FOOTPRINTS, IF YOU KNOW?
           10         A.    YES, THERE IS OTHER INFORMATION THAT CAN BE
           11   GAINED FROM IT.
           12         Q.    FOR EXAMPLE?
           13         A.    WELL, YOU CAN IDENTIFY THE TYPE OF SHOE IF THE
           14   PATTERN IS GOOD ENOUGH, THE MAKE AND TYPE OF THE SHOE.
           15               YOU CAN ALSO DO A STRIDE ANALYSIS OF THE SHOE
           16   OR PATTERN TO GIVE YOU A PROPOSED FEELING WHETHER A PERSON
           17   IS WALKING OR RUNNING OR WHATEVER, WHAT HAVE YOU.
           18               BUT THAT'S OUT OF MY EXPERTISE AREA.
           19         Q.    THAT WOULD BE FOR A CRIMINALIST.
           20               IS THAT RIGHT?
           21         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           22         Q.    HAVE YOU DETERMINED IN THE COURSE OF YOUR
           23   INVESTIGATION AT THIS TIME WHETHER AT THE CRIME SCENE THE
           24   GATES THAT WERE NEAR TO THE BODIES, WERE THEY SECURITY
           25   GATES OPERABLE ONLY FROM THE INSIDE OR WHETHER THERE WAS A
           26   KEY THAT WAS NEEDED TO OPERATE THEM FROM THE OUTSIDE?
           27         A.    I PERSONALLY HAVE NOT DETERMINED THAT.
           28         Q.    IS THIS INVESTIGATION CURRENTLY ONGOING, SIR?

                                                                          366

            1         A.    YES, IT CERTAINLY IS.
            2         Q.    VERY ACTIVELY?
            3         A.    VERY ACTIVELY.
            4         Q.    CAN YOU RECALL WHAT WAS IMMEDIATELY TO THE
            5   SOUTH OF THE CRIME SCENE AREA?
            6         A.    YES.
            7               THE CRIME SCENE AREA IS A DUPLEX.
            8               IMMEDIATELY SOUTH OF THE CRIME SCENE AREA, I
            9   BELIEVE, IS 873 SOUTH BUNDY DRIVE, WHICH SHARES A COMMON
           10   WALL WITH 875 SOUTH BUNDY.
           11         Q.    AND DO YOU RECALL WHAT WAS IMMEDIATELY TO THE
           12   SOUTH OF THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS?
           13         A.    THERE IS ANOTHER RESIDENCE, BUT I BELIEVE --
           14   AND RIGHT NOW I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT THAT WOULD CONSIST OF.
           15         MS. CLARK:  NOTHING FURTHER.
           16         THE FOREPERSON:  THERE BEING NO FURTHER QUESTIONS,
           17   DETECTIVE VANNATTER, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY
           18   CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
           19               YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
           20   PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
           21   ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
           22               IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
           23   MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
           24   INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
           25   HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
           26   PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
           27               I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
           28   THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST

                                                                          367

            1   YOU.
            2               DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
            3         THE WITNESS:  YES, I UNDERSTAND.
            4         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
            5               YOU ARE EXCUSED.
            6         THE WITNESS:  THANK YOU.
            7
            8                   (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
            9                       JURY HEARING ROOM.)
           10
           11         THE FOREPERSON:  THE GRAND JURY IS IN RECESS FOR ITS
           12   LUNCH BREAK AT THIS TIME.
           13               WE WILL RECONVENE IN THIS CASE AT 2:00 O'CLOCK.
           14
           15                      (NOON RECESS TAKEN.)
           16                             -O0O-
           17
           18
           19
           20
           21
           22
           23
           24
           25
           26
           27
           28

                                                                          368

            1       LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; WEDNESDAY, JUNE 22, 1994
            2                           2:00 P.M.
            3                             -O0O-
            4
            5             (AT THE BEGINNING OF THESE PROCEEDINGS,
            6                 20 GRAND JURORS WERE PRESENT.)
            7
            8         THE FOREPERSON:  THIS HEARING IS NOW IN SESSION.
            9               MADAME SECRETARY?
           10         THE SECRETARY:  LET THE RECORD REFLECT THE SAME
           11   TWENTY GRAND JURORS PRESENT AT THIS MORNING'S ROLL CALL ARE
           12   NOW PRESENT.
           13         THE FOREPERSON:  WE ARE CONTINUING WITH THE MATTER
           14   BEFORE US:
           15                      "NAME OF POSSIBLE DEFENDANT:
           16                      "ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON.
           17               THE DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY ARE MARSHA
           18   CLARK AND DAVID CONN.
           19         MS. CLARK:  PEOPLE CALL THANO PERATIS.
           20               WE HAVE TO ADD HIM TO THE LIST.
           21               T-H-A-N-O P-E-R-A-T-I-S.
           22         THE FOREPERSON:  THANO PERATIS, PLEASE RAISE YOUR
           23   RIGHT HAND.
           24               YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
           25   TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
           26   THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
           27   TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
           28         THE WITNESS:  I DO.

                                                                          369

            1         THE FOREPERSON:  PLEASE BE SEATED.
            2               MR. PERATIS, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
            3   NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
            4         THE WITNESS:  THANO M. PERATIS.
            5               T-H-A-N-O M. P-E-R-A-T-I-S.
            6         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
            7               YOU MAY PROCEED.
            8         MS. CLARK:  THANK YOU.
            9
           10                       THANO M. PERATIS,
           11   CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
           12   WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
           13
           14                      E X A M I N A T I O N
           15   BY MS. CLARK:
           16         Q.    TELL US WHAT YOU DO FOR A LIVING, MR. PERATIS.
           17         A.    I'M A REGISTERED NURSE.
           18         Q.    WHERE DO YOU WORK?
           19         A.    PARKER CENTER JAIL.
           20         Q.    AS A REGISTERED NURSE, DO YOU HAVE SOME
           21   TRAINING?
           22         A.    SORRY?
           23         Q.    DO YOU HAVE A HARD TIME HEARING ME, SIR?
           24               CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?
           25         A.    YEAH, THAT'S BETTER.
           26         Q.    WHAT IS YOUR TRAINING TO BECOME A NURSE?
           27         A.    I WENT TO NURSING SCHOOL.
           28         Q.    DID YOU RECEIVE A DEGREE AS A REGISTERED NURSE?

                                                                          370

            1         A.    YES, MA'AM.
            2         Q.    AS SUCH, ARE YOU QUALIFIED TO REMOVE BLOOD FROM
            3   PEOPLE IN A MEDICALLY APPROVED MANNER?
            4         A.    YES.
            5         Q.    IS THAT PART OF THE DUTIES YOU PERFORM AS THE
            6   NURSE AT THE JAIL DISPENSERY AT PARKER CENTER HERE IN
            7   LOS ANGELES COUNTY?
            8         A.    YES, IT IS.
            9         Q.    AND ON JUNE 13, 1994, WERE YOU WORKING THAT
           10   DAY, SIR --
           11         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           12         Q.    -- AT PARKER CENTER IN YOUR USUAL CAPACITY AS A
           13   REGISTERED NURSE?
           14         A.    YES.
           15         Q.    WERE YOU REQUESTED TO REMOVE BLOOD FROM THE ARM
           16   OF A PERSON BY THE NAME OF MR. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON?
           17         A.    NOT QUITE WITH THAT.
           18               THE INITIALS WERE O.J. SIMPSON, YES.
           19         Q.    DID YOU REMOVE A BLOOD SAMPLE FROM THAT PERSON?
           20         A.    YES, I DID.
           21         Q.    ON JUNE 13?
           22         A.    YES.
           23         Q.    I WILL SHOW YOU PEOPLE'S 23 AND YOU TELL ME IF
           24   THAT'S THE PERSON YOU REMOVED BLOOD FROM.
           25         A.    YES, IT IS.
           26         Q.    CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US WHAT IS THE METHOD BY
           27   WHICH YOU REMOVED BLOOD FROM MR. SIMPSON.
           28         A.    I PUT A TOURNIQUET ON HIS ARM, CLEANED THE SITE

                                                                          371

            1   WITH AQUEOUS ZEPHRIN AND PUT A 10 C.C. SYRINGE WITH ABOUT
            2   A NO. 20 NEEDLE IN THE VEIN, IN HIS ARM AND I WITHDREW
            3   ABOUT 8 C.C.'S OF BLOOD.
            4               AND I THEN PUT THE BLOOD INTO A TEST TUBE THAT
            5   HAD A PRESERVATIVE CALLED E.D.T.A. AND THEN HANDED IT TO
            6   THE OFFICER, TO THE DETECTIVE, AND THEN PUT A DRESSING ON
            7   HIM.
            8         Q.    ON THE ARM?
            9         A.    YES.
           10         Q.    APPROXIMATELY HOW MUCH BLOOD DID YOU REMOVE?
           11         A.    APPROXIMATELY 8 CC'S.
           12         Q.    AND THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU REMOVED THAT BLOOD,
           13   DID IT AVOID ANY CONTAMINATION OF THE BLOOD?
           14         A.    OH, DEFINITELY.
           15         Q.    AND THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU PACKAGED IT, WAS IT
           16   ALSO SEALED TO PREVENT ANY CONTAMINATION?
           17         A.    YES, MA'AM.
           18         Q.    DID YOU THEN PUT IT IN SOME KIND OF A PACKAGE?
           19         A.    I HANDED IT TO ONE OF THE DETECTIVES, WHO PUT
           20   IT INTO A LARGE GRAY ENVELOPE.
           21         Q.    DID YOU HAND IT TO DETECTIVE PHILLIP VANNATTER?
           22         A.    VANNATTER, YES.
           23         MS. CLARK:  I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
           24         THE FOREPERSON:  IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
           25   HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
           26               THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
           27   SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
           28

                                                                          372

            1                         (SHORT PAUSE.)
            2
            3         THE FOREPERSON:  THERE BEING NO FURTHER QUESTIONS,
            4   MR. PERATIS, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY
            5   TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
            6               YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
            7   PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
            8   ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
            9               IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
           10   MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
           11   INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
           12   HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
           13   PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
           14               I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
           15   THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
           16   YOU.
           17               DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
           18         THE WITNESS:  YES.
           19         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
           20               YOU ARE EXCUSED.
           21
           22                   (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
           23                       JURY HEARING ROOM.)
           24
           25         MS. CLARK:  PEOPLE CALL MR. DENNIS FUNG.
           26         THE FOREPERSON:  DENNIS FUNG, PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT
           27   HAND.
           28               YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT

                                                                          373

            1   TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
            2   THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
            3   TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
            4         THE WITNESS:  I DO.
            5         THE FOREPERSON:  PLEASE BE SEATED.
            6               MR. FUNG, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
            7   NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
            8         THE WITNESS:  MY NAME IS DENNIS KIRK FUNG.
            9               D-E-N-N-I-S K-I-R-K F-U-N-G.
           10         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
           11               YOU MAY PROCEED.
           12
           13                       DENNIS KIRK FUNG,
           14   CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
           15   WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
           16
           17                      E X A M I N A T I O N
           18   BY MS. CLARK:
           19         Q.    MR. FUNG, CAN YOU PLEASE TELL US WHAT YOU DO.
           20         A.    I AM A CRIMINALIST EMPLOYED BY THE LOS ANGELES
           21   POLICE DEPARTMENT.
           22               I WORK IN THE SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION DIVISION
           23   AND I'M ASSIGNED TO THE FIREARMS ANALYSIS UNIT.
           24               PART OF MY DUTIES INCLUDE PROCESSING CRIME
           25   SCENES; THAT IS, COLLECTING EVIDENCE AND DOCUMENTING
           26   PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AT A CRIME SCENE.
           27         Q.    AND DID YOU RECEIVE SOME TRAINING IN ORDER TO
           28   PERFORM THOSE DUTIES?

                                                                          374

            1         A.    YES, I HAVE.
            2               I HAVE A BACHELOR OF SCIENCE DEGREE IN
            3   CRIMINALISTICS FROM THE CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY AT LONG
            4   BEACH.
            5               I ALSO HAVE A BACHELOR OF ARTS IN CHEMISTRY
            6   FROM LONG BEACH STATE.
            7               I HAVE CONDUCTED OVER 500 CRIME SCENE
            8   SEARCHES.
            9               I HAVE ATTENDED SEMINARS GIVEN BY THE
           10   CALIFORNIA ASSOCIATION OF CRIMINALISTS AND THE AMERICAN
           11   ACADEMY OF FORENSIC SCIENCES REGARDING CRIME SCENE SEARCHES
           12   AND RECONSTRUCTIONS.
           13         Q.    WERE YOU ALSO THE CRIMINALIST, THEN, ASSIGNED
           14   TO COLLECT AND RETRIEVE THE EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE, SIR?
           15         A.    YES, I WAS.
           16         Q.    NOW, DOES EVERY CASE HAVE A D.R. NUMBER?
           17         A.    YES, IT DOES.
           18         Q.    THIS ONE ALSO DOES?
           19         A.    YES, IT DOES.
           20         Q.    WHEN YOU COLLECT EVIDENCE AT ANY CRIME SCENE,
           21   AND THIS ONE INCLUDED, DO YOU PACKAGE ALL OF THE EVIDENCE
           22   IN A PARTICULAR MANNER?
           23         A.    YES, I DO.
           24         Q.    WHAT IS IMPORTANT ABOUT THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU
           25   PACKAGE THE EVIDENCE?
           26         A.    I WILL WRITE THE D.R. NUMBER AND ITEM NUMBER ON
           27   EACH PACKAGE OR ITEM OF EVIDENCE AND I WILL THEN STORE THEM
           28   IN A MANNER APPROPRIATE FOR THE PRESERVATION OF THAT

                                                                          375

            1   EVIDENCE.
            2         Q.    WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT, SIR?
            3         A.    ITEMS SUCH AS BLOOD STAINS THAT NEED TO BE IN A
            4   COLD LOCATION WILL BE STORED IN THE FROZEN SECTION OF THE
            5   PROPERTY DIVISION, AND SHELF STORAGE ITEMS WILL BE SO
            6   LABELED ALSO.
            7         Q.    SO THE GOAL, THEN, IS TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL OF
            8   THE EVIDENCE YOU COLLECT IS PRESERVED AND NOT CONTAMINATED
            9   IN ANY WAY?
           10         A.    THAT IS CORRECT.
           11         Q.    EVERY PACKAGE YOU PLACE ITEMS INTO, DOES THAT
           12   BEAR A D.R. NUMBER?
           13         A.    YES.
           14         Q.    THAT IS SO EVERYONE KEEPS THE EVIDENCE THAT
           15   GOES TO EACH CASE SEPARATE.
           16               IS THAT RIGHT?
           17         A.    YES.
           18         Q.    DID YOU ALSO CAUSE THE EVIDENCE COLLECTED IN
           19   THIS CASE TO BE PLACED INTO PACKAGES APPROPRIATE FOR ITS
           20   PRESERVATION AND MARKED WITH A D.R. NUMBER FOR THE CASE?
           21         A.    YES, I DID.
           22         Q.    DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS THE D.R. NUMBER FOR THIS
           23   CASE?
           24         A.    IF I MAY REFER TO MY NOTES.
           25         Q.    YES.
           26               DO YOU NEED YOUR NOTES TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY?
           27         A.    YES, I DO.
           28         Q.    DO YOU WRITE THE D.R. NUMBER ON ALL YOUR NOTES?

                                                                          376

            1         A.    YES, I DO.
            2               THE D.R. NUMBER FOR THIS CASE IS 94-0817431.
            3         Q.    THANK YOU.
            4               NOW, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE DATE OF
            5   JUNE 13, 1994.
            6               ON THAT DATE, DID YOU RESPOND TO A LOCATION,
            7   THE LOCATION AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY DRIVE IN LOS ANGELES
            8   COUNTY?
            9         A.    YES, I DID.
           10         Q.    DID YOU DO SO IN THE SCOPE AND COURSE OF YOUR
           11   DUTIES AS A CRIMINALIST?
           12         A.    YES, I DID.
           13         Q.    DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION SIR TO THE PHOTOGRAPHS
           14   THAT HAVE BEEN COLLECTIVELY MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 1, 27, AND
           15   26 THAT YOU NOW SEE BEFORE YOU.
           16         A.    YES.
           17         Q.    DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE CRIME SCENE AS SHOWN IN
           18   THESE PHOTOGRAPHS?
           19         A.    YES, I DO.
           20         Q.    AND WHERE WAS THAT CRIME SCENE?
           21         A.    THAT CRIME SCENE WAS AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY.
           22         Q.    IN LOS ANGELES COUNTY?
           23         A.    YES.
           24         Q.    IS THAT THE CRIME SCENE YOU RESPONDED TO ON
           25   JUNE 13, 1994?
           26         A.    YES, IT IS.
           27         Q.    NOW, I'M JUST GOING TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO
           28   CERTAIN ITEMS OF EVIDENCE.

                                                                          377

            1               CAN YOU TELL US HOW MANY TOTAL ITEMS OF
            2   EVIDENCE YOU RECOVERED FROM THAT CRIME SCENE.
            3         A.    THAT PARTICULAR CRIME LOCATION?
            4         Q.    YES.
            5         A.    I'M REFERRING TO MY NOTES NOW.
            6               TWENTY-THREE ITEMS OF EVIDENCE WERE COLLECTED
            7   AT THAT LOCATION.
            8         Q.    WAS ONE OF THOSE ITEMS A BROWN MAN'S LEATHER
            9   GLOVE?
           10         A.    YES, IT WAS.
           11         Q.    DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE SET OF
           12   PHOTOGRAPHS, PEOPLE'S 26.
           13               CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU SEE THE GLOVE YOU HAVE
           14   JUST REFERRED TO.
           15         A.    IF I MAY TAKE A CLOSER LOOK?
           16         Q.    YES.
           17         A.    YES.  THE GLOVE I AM REFERRING TO IS SHOWN IN
           18   PHOTOGRAPH -A, THE PERSON IS POINTING TO IT THERE.
           19               IT IS ALSO IN PHOTOGRAPH -B, IN THE BOTTOM
           20   LEFT-HAND CORNER.
           21               IT IS IN PHOTOGRAPH -C, NEXT TO THE PHOTO I.D.,
           22   NO. 102.
           23         Q.    IN PHOTOGRAPHS -A, -B AND -C, DO THEY ACTUALLY
           24   DEPICT THE GLOVE IN THE LOCATION AND CONDITION YOU FOUND
           25   IT?
           26         A.    YES.
           27         Q.    WHAT DID YOU DO WITH RESPECT TO THAT GLOVE?
           28         A.    INITIALLY, I MEASURED TO SEE -- TO LOCATE WHERE

                                                                          378

            1   IT WAS FOUND, DOCUMENTED THAT LOCATION AND THEN PLACED IT
            2   IN A PAPER BAG FOR LATER PROCESSING.
            3         Q.    AND THE BAG YOU PLACED IT IN, DID IT BEAR THE
            4   D.R. NUMBER YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY GIVEN US?
            5         A.    I DID PUT THAT D.R. NUMBER ON THAT BAG AT A
            6   LATER DATE, YES.
            7         Q.    DID YOU ALSO OBSERVE BLOOD DROPS LEADING AWAY
            8   FROM THE BODIES TOWARDS THE REAR OF THE LOCATION OF 875
            9   SOUTH BUNDY?
           10         A.    THERE WAS A BLOOD TRAIL.  I COULDN'T DETERMINE
           11   IF IT WAS COMING FROM OR TO.
           12               HOWEVER, THERE WAS ONE LEADING TO THE -- OR TO
           13   OR FROM THE CRIME SCENE IN THE REAR, OR NORTH OF THE
           14   BUILDING.
           15         Q.    LEADING FROM THE FRONT OF THE LOCATION TO THE
           16   BACK OF THE LOCATION?
           17         A.    YES.
           18         Q.    THE PHOTOGRAPHS HAVE BEEN MARKED AS
           19   PEOPLE'S 28, -A THROUGH -G.
           20               DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT LOCATION?
           21         A.    YES, I DO.
           22         Q.    WHAT DOES THAT SHOW?
           23         A.    THAT DEPICTS THE TRAIL OF BLOOD STAINS THAT
           24   LEADS FROM THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE TO THE BACK OF THE HOUSE.
           25               AND THAT'S ALSO ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE HOUSE,
           26   ALSO.
           27         Q.    DOES THAT APPEAR TO DEPICT SOME OF THE BLOOD
           28   DROPS WE ARE REFERRING TO NOW AS THE BLOOD TRAIL?

                                                                          379

            1         A.    YES, IT DOES.
            2         Q.    NOW, DID YOU ALSO OBSERVE BLOODY SHOE PRINTS
            3   LEADING AWAY FROM THE BODIES?
            4         A.    YES, I DID.
            5         Q.    WERE THERE BLOOD DROPS NEXT TO THOSE SHOE
            6   PRINTS?
            7         A.    YES, THERE WERE.
            8         Q.    DID YOU ATTEMPT TO RETRIEVE AND PRESERVE THE
            9   BLOOD FOUND IN THOSE BLOOD DROPS?
           10         A.    YES, I DID.
           11         Q.    WHAT DID YOU DO?
           12         A.    I TRANSFERRED THE BLOOD DROPS ONTO -- ONTO
           13   CLOTH SQUARES OR CLOTH SWATCHES.
           14               WHAT I DID WAS WET THE CLOTH SWATCHES WITH
           15   DISTILLED WATER AND THEN APPLIED THEM TO THE STAIN, THE RED
           16   STAINS WHICH ARE LATER DETERMINED TO BE BLOOD, AND THEY
           17   WERE TRANSFERRED ON IN THAT METHOD.
           18         Q.    IS THAT AN APPROVED -- SCIENTIFICALLY APPROVED
           19   METHOD FOR THE PRESERVATION AND PREVENTION OF CONTAMINATION
           20   OF BLOOD STAINS AND BLOOD DRIPPINGS?
           21         A.    THAT'S THE WAY I HAVE BEEN TAUGHT ALL THE WAY
           22   THROUGH SCHOOL, THROUGH SEMINARS AND THAT'S THE WAY WE DO
           23   IT IN THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT.
           24         Q.    TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, IS THAT A SCIENTIFICALLY
           25   APPROVED MANNER?
           26         A.    YES.
           27         Q.    AND AFTER YOU COLLECTED THOSE BLOOD DROPS AND
           28   YOU PRESERVED THEM, DID YOU MARK THEM WITH A D.R. NUMBER

                                                                          380

            1   FOR THIS CASE?
            2         A.    YES, I DID.
            3         Q.    AND WHO DID YOU SUBMIT THEM TO?
            4         A.    I GAVE THEM TO CRIMINALIST YAMAUCHI AT THE LAB.
            5         Q.    WAS THAT ON THE DATE OF JUNE 14?
            6         A.    YES, IT WAS.
            7         Q.    ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH WHAT IS KNOWN AS A STRIDE
            8   ANALYSIS?
            9         A.    YES, I AM.
           10         Q.    WHAT IS IT?
           11         A.    IF YOU HAVE SHOE PRINTS OR FOOTPRINTS ON THE
           12   GROUND, YOU CAN MEASURE THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE SHOE
           13   PRINTS AND DETERMINE HOW FAR OR HOW LARGE -- NOT LARGE --
           14   THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THEM, AND SOMETIMES YOU CAN DETERMINE
           15   IF A PERSON IS WALKING OR RUNNING, DEPENDING ON DIFFERENT
           16   FACTORS, SUCH AS HEIGHT AND WEIGHT.
           17         Q.    DID YOU ATTEMPT TO PERFORM THAT ANALYSIS IN
           18   THIS CASE?
           19         A.    YES, I DID.
           20         Q.    HOW DID YOU GO ABOUT DOING THAT?
           21         A.    I MEASURED THE FOOTPRINTS, AND ALSO I WALKED
           22   ALONG THE BLOODY SHOE PRINT PATH AND DETERMINED THAT THE
           23   PERSON WHO MADE THE SHOE PRINTS WAS NOT RUNNING BUT WAS
           24   WALKING.
           25         Q.    COULD YOU TELL WHETHER THEY WERE WALKING
           26   QUICKLY OR AT A NORMAL PACE?
           27         A.    NOT REALLY.
           28         Q.    THE DISTINCTION CAN BE MADE BETWEEN RUNNING AND

                                                                          381

            1   WALKING?
            2         A.    YES.
            3         Q.    AND THAT'S BASED ON THE BLOOD DRIPPINGS AS WELL
            4   AS THE SHOE PRINT?
            5         A.    IT'S BASED MOSTLY ON THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE
            6   SHOE PRINTS, BETWEEN EACH SHOE PRINT.
            7         Q.    WHAT, IF ANY, CONCLUSION CAN WE DRAW ABOUT THE
            8   HEIGHT OR SIZE OF THE PERSON WHO MADE THOSE SHOE PRINTS,
            9   FROM WHAT YOU SAW?
           10         A.    ON A SHOE PRINT ON CONCRETE LIKE THAT, NOT VERY
           11   MUCH CAN BE SAID.
           12         Q.    WHY IS THAT?
           13         A.    FOR WEIGHT DETERMINATION, SOIL IS A BETTER
           14   MEDIUM, BECAUSE THEN YOU CAN SAY THAT A VERY HEAVY PERSON
           15   WILL MAKE A DEEPER SHOE PRINT AND A LIGHTER PERSON WILL
           16   MAKE A MORE SHALLOW SHOE PRINT.
           17               AND IN THIS MEDIUM, YOU JUST DON'T HAVE THAT.
           18         Q.    YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE AN IMPRESSION ON
           19   CONCRETE --
           20         A.    RIGHT.
           21         Q.    -- BUT THE SIZE OF THE SHOE PRINT?
           22         A.    THE SIZE OF THE SHOE PRINT WOULD INDICATE THE
           23   PERSON'S FOOT SIZE, IF HE'S WEARING THE PROPER SHOES.
           24         Q.    AS OPPOSED TO EITHER SHOES THAT ARE TOO BIG OR
           25   TOO SMALL?
           26         A.    YES.
           27         Q.    WHAT OBSERVATION DID YOU MAKE WITH RESPECT TO
           28   THE SIZE OF THESE SHOES?

                                                                          382

            1         A.    I DIDN'T DO A SHOE SIZE DETERMINATION, BUT IT
            2   APPEARED TO BE AN ADULT-SIZED SHOE PRINT.
            3         Q.    CAN YOU TELL WHETHER IT APPEARED TO BE THE SIZE
            4   OF FOOT YOU WOULD SEE ON A MAN VERSUS A WOMAN?
            5         A.    NOT REALLY, NO.
            6         Q.    WHY NOT?
            7         A.    THE SHOE PRINTS OF -- THE SIZE OF SHOES WILL --
            8   ARE VERY DIVERSE.
            9               AND I HAVEN'T BEEN IN THE SHOE ANALYSIS ASSIST
           10   UNIT FOR ABOUT 3 YEARS, SO I'M KIND OF RUSTY ON THAT ASPECT
           11   OF SHOE PRINT ANALYSIS.
           12         Q.    SO YOU ARE DISQUALIFYING YOURSELF ON THAT ONE.
           13               BASICALLY, ARE YOU TELLING US YOU ARE NOT
           14   QUALIFIED TO RENDER AN OPINION AS TO THAT BECAUSE OF A LACK
           15   OF EXPERIENCE AND TRAINING?
           16         A.    YES, AT THIS POINT.
           17         MS. CLARK:  I WILL ASK THE JURY TO DISREGARD ANY
           18   STATEMENTS CONCERNING THE CONCLUSIONS THAT HE MAY HAVE
           19   DRAWN ABOUT THE WEARER OF THE SHOE BASED ON THE SIZE OF THE
           20   IMPRESSION THAT HE SAW.
           21         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO THE STRIDE ANALYSIS, WHAT IS
           22   THE BASIS FOR THE CONCLUSION THAT YOU DRAW CONCERNING THE
           23   PACE OF THE PERSON MOVING WHO DRIPPED THAT BLOOD?
           24         A.    AS I WALKED ALONG THE BLOODY SHOE PRINT PATH, I
           25   WAS WALKING AND I WOULD EXPECT THE SHOE PRINTS -- THE
           26   DISTANCE BETWEEN EACH SHOE PRINTS TO BE A MUCH GREATER
           27   DISTANCE FOR SOMEBODY WHO WAS RUNNING.  AND IT WAS
           28   PRETTY -- THE STRIDE WAS NOT MUCH DIFFERENT FROM MY OWN

                                                                          383

            1   WHEN I WAS WALKING, SO THAT IS HOW I BASED MY CONCLUSION.
            2         Q.    YOU BASED YOUR CONCLUSION ON THE DISTANCE
            3   BETWEEN THE SHOE PRINTS?
            4         A.    YES, BETWEEN CONSECUTIVE SHOE PRINTS.
            5         Q.    WAS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE
            6   BLOOD DRIPPING THAT SUPPORTED THAT CONCLUSION AS WELL?
            7         A.    YES.
            8         Q.    WHEN I SAY THAT, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE BLOOD
            9   DROPS SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S -- I BELIEVE IT'S 28.
           10               THAT'S RIGHT, PEOPLE'S 28.
           11         A.    YES.
           12               ASSUMING THAT THOSE BLOOD STAINS ARE FROM --
           13   WERE MADE BY THE PERSON WHO ALSO MADE THE SHOE PRINTS, I
           14   WOULD EXPECT THOSE BLOOD DROPS TO HAVE LITTLE TRAILING
           15   EDGES TO THEM THAT WOULD INDICATE A DIRECTION.
           16               BUT THEY PRETTY MUCH DO NOT HAVE DIRECTION
           17   ASSOCIATED WITH THEM.
           18         Q.    THEN WHAT ARE YOU TELLING US ABOUT THOSE BLOOD
           19   DROPS?
           20         A.    THOSE BLOOD DROPS WERE MADE BY SOMEBODY GOING
           21   IN A RELATIVELY SLOW -- SLOW VELOCITY, SLOW SPEED.
           22         Q.    ARE YOU BASING THAT ON THE APPEARANCE OF THE
           23   BLOOD DROPS?
           24         A.    YES, I AM.
           25         Q.    WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE APPEARANCE OF THOSE BLOOD
           26   DROPS THAT CAUSES YOU TO COME TO THAT CONCLUSION?
           27         A.    THEY ARE ROUND BLOOD DROPS WITH NO APPARENT
           28   TRAILING EDGES.

                                                                          384

            1         Q.    THE TRAILING EDGES ARE WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT TO
            2   FIND IF HE WAS MOVING OR SHE WAS MOVING MORE QUICKLY?
            3         A.    YES.
            4         MS. CLARK:  MAY I HAVE A MOMENT?
            5         THE FOREPERSON:  YOU MAY DO SO.
            6
            7                         (SHORT PAUSE.)
            8
            9         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  BASED ON WHAT YOU SAW IN THE
           10   BLOOD DROPS SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S 28 AND THE SHOE PRINTS THAT
           11   YOU HAVE DESCRIBED THAT WERE ADJACENT TO THOSE BLOOD DROPS,
           12   DID YOU -- WHERE THE BLOOD DROPS ARE, DO THE BLOOD DROPS
           13   APPEAR TO HAVE BEEN DRIPPED BY THE PERSON WHO MADE THE SHOE
           14   PRINTS?
           15         A.    IT'S CONSISTENT.
           16               THERE IS NOTHING THAT WOULD INDICATE THAT THEY
           17   WERE NOT.
           18         Q.    IF YOU COULD, SIR, STEP DOWN AND LOOK AT
           19   PEOPLE'S 28.
           20               CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER IN PHOTOGRAPH -C YOU
           21   SEE A PARTIAL SHOE PRINT OF THE TYPE YOU WERE DISCUSSING
           22   THAT YOU SAW AT THE CRIME SCENE LEADING AWAY FROM THE
           23   BODIES.
           24         A.    THERE APPEARS THAT THIS MAY BE A SHOE PRINT OR
           25   PARTIAL SHOE PRINT IN PHOTOGRAPH -C ON PEOPLE'S 28.
           26         Q.    WHEN YOU SAID, "THERE APPEARS," YOU POINTED TO
           27   AN AREA THAT IS JUST DIAGONALLY AND TO THE LEFT AS YOU FACE
           28   IT BELOW THE NO. 239.

                                                                          385

            1         A.    YES.
            2         Q.    DOES IT APPEAR TO BE A HEAL AREA?
            3         A.    I CAN'T REALLY SAY FROM THAT PHOTOGRAPH.
            4               IT MAY BE.
            5         Q.    SHOWING YOU THE PHOTOGRAPHS IN PEOPLE'S 26,
            6   PHOTOGRAPH -B.
            7               CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU SEE ANY EXAMPLES OF SHOE
            8   PRINTS THAT YOU SAW LEADING AWAY FROM THE BODIES IN THESE
            9   PHOTOGRAPHS.
           10         A.    WITHOUT HAVING THE BENEFIT OF THE ACTUAL SHOE
           11   PRINTS TO COMPARE AGAINST, THESE DO -- THE HEAL PRINTS IN
           12   -A, -B AND -C ARE SIMILAR TO THOSE THAT I SAW ON THE BLOODY
           13   SHOE PRINTS, BUT I'M NOT 100 PERCENT CERTAIN.
           14               BUT THEY DO REPRESENT THEM -- BUT THEY DO
           15   REPRESENT THE TRAIL.
           16         Q.    WHEN YOU SAY, "THEY REPRESENT THE TRAIL" --
           17         A.    OR THEY REPRESENT THE SAME SHOE PRINTS AS THOSE
           18   THAT WERE ALONG THE TRAIL.
           19         Q.    YOU MEAN THE HEAL PRINTS SHOWN IN -A, -B AND -C
           20   OF THAT EXHIBIT APPEAR THE SAME AS THE PRINTS THAT YOU SAW
           21   LEADING ALONG THE BLOOD TRAIL ON THE LANDING LEADING AWAY
           22   FROM THE BODY?
           23         A.    FROM MY MEMORY, YES.
           24         Q.    WERE CLOSER PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN OF THE SHOE
           25   PRINTS YOU SAW LEADING AWAY FROM THE BODY ALONG THE LANDING
           26   THAT WENT TO THE BACK OF THE RESIDENCE?
           27         A.    YES, THERE WERE.
           28               HOWEVER, I HAVE NOT RECEIVED THEM YET.

                                                                          386

            1         Q.    THEY HAVEN'T BEEN PROCESSED YET, THOSE
            2   PHOTOGRAPHS?
            3         A.    YES.
            4         Q.    I SEE.
            5               SO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING AT THIS TIME, SIR, BASED
            6   ON YOUR MEMORY OF THE CRIME SCENE AS YOU SAW IT ON JUNE 13,
            7   THOSE APPEAR TO BE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE SAME PATTERN THAT
            8   YOU SAW LEADING AWAY FROM THE CRIME SCENE?
            9         A.    YES.
           10         Q.    BUT YOU WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE PHOTOGRAPHS IN
           11   FRONT OF YOU HAVE TO BE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN?
           12         A.    YES; THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.
           13         Q.    AND THIS INVESTIGATION IS STILL VERY MUCH IN
           14   PROGRESS.
           15               IS THAT CORRECT?
           16         A.    YES, IT IS.
           17         Q.    AND NOT ALL OF THE EVIDENCE HAS BEEN COMPLETED
           18   IN TERMS OF ANALYSIS, HAS IT?
           19         A.    THAT IS CORRECT.
           20         Q.    NOW, DID YOU ALSO RESPOND TO THE LOCATION OF
           21   360 ROCKINGHAM AVENUE IN BRENTWOOD, LOS ANGELES COUNTY?
           22         A.    YES, I DID.
           23         Q.    DID YOU RECOVER EVIDENCE FROM THAT LOCATION AS
           24   WELL?
           25         A.    YES, I DID.
           26         Q.    DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO PEOPLE'S 5.
           27               CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE AUTOMOBILE
           28   SHOWN IN -A, PHOTOGRAPH -A.

                                                                          387

            1         A.    YES, I DO.
            2         Q.    DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE GENTLEMAN IN PHOTOGRAPH -A
            3   ALSO?
            4         A.    THAT APPEARS TO BE ME.
            5         Q.    WHAT ARE YOU POINTING TO?
            6         A.    I AM POINTING TO A RED STAIN THAT WAS OBSERVED
            7   BY THE DRIVER DOOR EXTERIOR HANDLE.
            8         Q.    IS THAT A CLOSE-UP SHOWN OF THAT RED STAIN ON
            9   PHOTOGRAPH -B?
           10         A.    YES, IT IS.
           11         Q.    NOW, IN PHOTOGRAPHS -D AND -E, CAN YOU TELL US
           12   WHAT IS DEPICTED IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS.
           13         A.    THOSE ARE RED STAINS THAT WERE TESTED AND GAVE
           14   A PRELIMINARY -- A PRESUMPTIVE POSITIVE FOR THE PRESENCE OF
           15   BLOOD.
           16         Q.    AND SO -D WAS A BLOOD DRIPPING THAT WAS BEHIND
           17   THE VEHICLE, AS SHOWN IN -C?
           18         A.    I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE WHERE THAT WAS LOCATED.
           19         Q.    WHEN YOU SAID THAT, YOU MEANT PHOTOGRAPH -D?
           20         A.    YES.
           21               BECAUSE THERE IS NO IDENTIFYING MARKER ON THAT
           22   PHOTOGRAPH.
           23         Q.    HOWEVER, IN PHOTOGRAPH -C, THERE IS A MARKER
           24   THAT IS ON THE STREET JUST BEHIND THE FORD BRONCO IN FRONT
           25   OF THE NO. 360.
           26               IS THAT RIGHT?
           27         A.    YES, THERE IS.
           28         Q.    AND WHAT IS THAT MARKER THERE FOR?

                                                                          388

            1         A.    THAT IS THERE TO LOCATE AN ITEM OF EVIDENCE
            2   WHICH HAPPENED TO BE A RED STAIN, ALSO.
            3         Q.    THAT YOU TESTED FOR -- THAT YOU PERFORMED A
            4   PRESUMPTIVE TEST FOR BLOOD ON?
            5         A.    YES.
            6         Q.    AND ALSO TESTED POSITIVE?
            7         A.    YES, IT DID.
            8         Q.    IN PHOTOGRAPH -E?
            9         A.    IN PHOTOGRAPH -E IS ANOTHER RED STAIN THAT IS
           10   BEING POINTED TO BY A DETECTIVE.
           11         Q.    DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO EXHIBIT
           12   PEOPLE'S 2.
           13               I'M JUST GOING TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION IN THIS
           14   EXHIBIT TO PHOTOGRAPHS -E AND -F.
           15         A.    YES.
           16         Q.    DO YOU SEE THE MARKERS HERE ALONG THE WALK WITH
           17   THESE LITTLE GREEN TAGS?
           18         A.    YES, I DO.
           19         Q.    ALL THE WAY UP TO THE TAG HERE THAT SEEMS TO BE
           20   MARKED WITH AN 8?
           21         Q.    CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THOSE TAGS ARE THERE FOR.
           22         A.    THOSE MARKERS WERE THERE TO LOCATE THE
           23   LOCATIONS WHERE WE FOUND RED STAINS WHICH LATER TURNED OUT
           24   TO BE BLOOD.
           25         Q.    HUMAN BLOOD?
           26         A.    I CAN'T SAY WHETHER THEY WERE HUMAN AT THAT
           27   TIME.
           28               I HAVE NOT DONE A HUMAN TEST ON THEM MYSELF.

                                                                          389

            1         Q.    SO WHEN YOU SAY YOU DID A PRESUMPTIVE SCREENING
            2   TEST FOR BLOOD, YOU JUST DID THAT TO DETERMINE IF IT IS
            3   BLOOD, NOT WHETHER IT'S HUMAN OR ANIMAL?
            4         A.    YES.
            5         Q.    AND THE PHOTOGRAPH -F THAT HAS A NO. 8 AND WHAT
            6   APPEARS TO BE A RED STAIN --
            7         A.    YES.
            8         Q.    -- IS THAT THE BLOOD DRIPPING SHOWN IN
            9   PEOPLE'S 2, PHOTOGRAPH -D?
           10         A.    YES, IT IS.
           11         Q.    AND THEN IN PHOTOGRAPHS -G AND -H OF THIS
           12   SERIES, OTHER THAN PEOPLE'S 5, -G AND -H IS SHOWING WHAT?
           13         A.    -G AND -H DEPICTS THREE ADDITIONAL BLOOD STAINS
           14   OR BLOOD DROPS THAT WERE FOUND IN THE FOYER OF THE HOUSE.
           15         Q.    SO THREE BLOOD DROPS IN THE FOYER OF THE HOUSE
           16   MARKED WITH THE NO. 12?
           17         A.    YES.
           18         Q.    DID YOU PERFORM A PRESUMPTIVE TEST FOR BLOOD ON
           19   THOSE AS WELL?
           20         A.    YES.
           21         Q.    AND YOUR CONCLUSION WAS?
           22         A.    THEY APPEARED TO BE BLOOD.
           23         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO THE BLOOD ON THE CAR SHOWN IN
           24   PHOTOGRAPH -A OF PEOPLE'S 5, AS WELL AS -B, AND THE BLOOD
           25   BEHIND THE FORD BRONCO SHOWN WITH THE NO. 4 IN PHOTOGRAPH
           26   -C AND THE BLOOD SHOWN IN PHOTOGRAPH -F OF THIS EXHIBIT AND
           27   IN PHOTOGRAPH -- THAT SAME DROP OF BLOOD SHOWN IN
           28   PHOTOGRAPH -D OF PEOPLE'S 2, IN FACT, ALL OF THE BLOOD

                                                                          390

            1   RECOVERED AS SHOWN ON THE MARKERS IN PEOPLE'S 2 IN -G AND
            2   -F AS WELL AS 5 IN PHOTOGRAPHS -G AND -H, DID YOU RECOVER
            3   ALL OF THOSE FROM THE SCENE FOR FURTHER ANALYSIS?
            4         A.    THE ONES LABELED WITH NUMBERS, YES, I DID.
            5         Q.    HOW DID YOU RECOVER THEM?
            6         A.    I RECOVERED THEM IN THE MANNER DESCRIBED
            7   BEFORE, WHERE I WOULD WET A CLOTH SWATCH OR SEVERAL CLOTH
            8   SWATCHES, IF NEEDED, APPLY IT TO THE RED STAIN AND THEN LET
            9   THE STAIN TRANSFER ONTO THE CLOTH SWATCH.
           10         Q.    IS THAT A SCIENTIFICALLY APPROVED METHOD FOR
           11   THE COLLECTION OF STAINS PRESUMPTIVELY TESTED POSITIVE FOR
           12   BLOOD?
           13         A.    YES, IT IS.
           14         Q.    DID YOU PACKAGE THEM IN SOME MANNER TO PRESERVE
           15   THEM AND PREVENT CONTAMINATION OR LOSS?
           16         A.    YES, I DID.
           17         Q.    WHAT WAS THAT METHOD?
           18         A.    EACH STAIN WAS PACKAGED INDIVIDUALLY IN PLASTIC
           19   AT THE SCENE, AND LATER AT THE LAB THEY WERE TRANSFERRED TO
           20   TEST TUBES TO DRY.
           21               AND AFTER THEY WERE DRIED, THEN THEY WERE
           22   INDIVIDUALLY PACKAGED AGAIN TO PAPER BINDLES AND THEN PUT
           23   BACK IN THEIR ENVELOPES INDIVIDUALLY AND STORED IN FREEZER
           24   STORAGE.
           25         Q.    IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, THOUGH, THE BLOOD
           26   DRIPPINGS FROM THE HOUSE, FROM THE INSIDE OF THE HOUSE --
           27         A.    YES.
           28         Q.    -- AFTER YOU PACKAGED THEM, DID YOU PLACE

                                                                          391

            1   THEM -- AFTER YOU PUT THEM INTO THE APPROPRIATE CONTAINERS
            2   TO PRESERVE THEM, DID YOU PUT THEM IN A PACKAGE BEARING
            3   THIS D.R. NUMBER, THE ONE YOU READ TO US EARLIER?
            4         A.    YES, I DID.
            5         Q.    DID YOU SUBMITTED THAT TO SOMEONE FOR FURTHER
            6   ANALYSIS?
            7         A.    THE SELECTED BLOOD STAINS WERE GIVEN TO
            8   CRIMINALIST YAMAUCHI.
            9         Q.    WERE THOSE BLOOD STAINS RECOVERED FROM INSIDE
           10   THE HOUSE AT 360 ROCKINGHAM AVENUE?
           11         A.    SOME OF THEM WERE, YES.
           12         Q.    AND OTHERS?
           13         A.    OTHERS WERE RECOVERED FROM THE SOUTH BUNDY
           14   ADDRESS.
           15         Q.    WE ARE JUST TALKING ABOUT THE SCENE AT 360
           16   ROCKINGHAM.
           17               FROM 360 ROCKINGHAM, WERE THE STAINS THAT YOU
           18   DETERMINED PRESUMPTIVELY TO BE BLOOD TURNED OVER -- THE
           19   STAINS, THOSE THAT WERE RECOVERED FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE,
           20   WERE THOSE TURNED OVER TO MR. YAMAUCHI FOR ANALYSIS?
           21         A.    YES.
           22         Q.    AND WERE THEY MARKED WITH THE D.R. NUMBER FOR
           23   THIS CASE THAT YOU HAVE READ EARLIER?
           24         A.    YES.
           25         Q.    WAS THAT DONE ON JUNE 15?
           26         A.    I BELIEVE IT MAY -- I BELIEVE IT WAS ON JUNE 14
           27   THAT THAT OCCURRED, THAT I GAVE BLOOD STAINS TO
           28   MR. YAMAUCHI.

                                                                          392

            1               IT WAS TUESDAY, I BELIEVE.
            2         Q.    YOU THINK YOU GAVE THE BLOOD FROM THE FOYER OF
            3   THE SUSPECT'S RESIDENCE AT 360 ROCKINGHAM ON WHAT DATE?
            4         A.    ON THE 14TH OF JUNE.
            5         Q.    IS THAT WHAT YOUR NOTES SHOW, OR ARE YOU
            6   GUESSING?
            7         A.    MY NOTES SHOW JUNE 14.
            8         Q.    OKAY.
            9               NOW, YOU ALSO WERE INDICATING IN PHOTOGRAPH -A
           10   OF THE BRONCO IN PEOPLE'S --
           11         A.    5.
           12         Q.    -- 5, THANK YOU, THAT YOU DETECTED BLOOD IN
           13   YOUR PRESUMPTIVE TEST AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE ITEMS YOU
           14   PACKAGED AND PLACED A D.R. NUMBER ON.
           15         A.    YES.
           16         Q.    DID YOU TURN THAT OVER TO MR. YAMAUCHI ALSO?
           17         A.    NO, I DID NOT.
           18               THAT ONE HAS YET TO BE ANALYZED.
           19         Q.    ON THE HANDLE, ON THE DOOR HANDLE --
           20         A.    ITEM NO. 1.  --
           21         Q.    -- THE BLOOD ON THE DOOR HANDLE, IS THAT THE
           22   ONLY BLOOD THAT YOU RECOVERED FROM THAT CAR?
           23         A.    ON THAT DATE, YES.
           24         Q.    DID YOU SUBSEQUENTLY RECOVER OTHER BLOOD
           25   SAMPLES FROM THAT CAR?
           26         A.    YES, I DID.
           27         Q.    WHERE IN THE CAR?
           28         A.    THERE WERE OTHER BLOOD STAINS RECOVERED FROM

                                                                          393

            1   INSIDE THE CAR.
            2         Q.    DID YOU OBSERVE THEM?
            3         A.    YES, I DID.
            4         Q.    WHERE DID YOU FIND BLOOD STAINS INSIDE THE CAR?
            5         A.    THERE WERE BLOOD STAINS ON THE INTERIOR DRIVER
            6   DOOR, ON THE DRIVER'S SEAT, ON THE INSTRUMENT PANEL, ON THE
            7   DRIVER FLOOR AND ON THE CENTER CONSOLE.
            8         Q.    ON THE DRIVER'S FLOOR?
            9         A.    YES.
           10         Q.    WAS IT AN IMPRESSION LIKE FROM A SHOE?
           11         A.    THERE APPEARED TO BE A PARTIAL SHOE PRINT ON
           12   THE DRIVER FLOOR.
           13         Q.    AND DID IT TEST POSITIVE FOR BLOOD?
           14         A.    A PRESUMPTIVE TEST WAS DONE AND IT INDICATED
           15   THE PRESENCE OF BLOOD.
           16         Q.    HAS FURTHER TESTING BEEN COMPLETED ON THAT
           17   STAIN YET?
           18         A.    NO, NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.
           19         Q.    DID YOU TURN OVER SOME BLOOD THAT YOU RECOVERED
           20   FROM THE FORD BRONCO TO MR. YAMAUCHI ON JUNE 15, 1994?
           21         A.    YES, I DID.
           22         Q.    AND WHERE WAS THAT?
           23               WHERE IN THE CAR WAS THAT BLOOD TAKEN FROM?
           24         A.    LET'S SEE.  LET ME SHUFFLE THROUGH MY NOTES.
           25               YOU WILL HAVE TO EXCUSE ME.
           26         MS. CLARK:  THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT THE
           27   WITNESS HAS BROUGHT ALL HIS REPORTS WITH HIM.
           28               AND I WILL IDENTIFY WHAT THOSE REPORTS ARE FOR

                                                                          394

            1   THE RECORD AS SOON AS HE FINDS HIS PLACE.
            2         THE WITNESS:  OKAY.
            3               ON JUNE 15, ITEMS NO. 23, 34, 25, 31, A PORTION
            4   OF 33 WERE GIVEN TO CRIMINALIST YAMAUCHI FOR TESTING.
            5         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THOSE ITEM
            6   NUMBERS ARE, SO TELL ME WHICH OF THOSE ITEM NUMBERS
            7   REFLECTED BLOOD RETRIEVED FROM THE FORD BRONCO THAT YOU
            8   FOUND PARKED AT 360 ROCKINGHAM AVENUE.
            9         A.    ITEM NO. 23 WAS A RED STAIN THAT WAS RECOVERED
           10   FROM THE DRIVER DOOR.
           11               ITEM --
           12         Q.    WAIT.
           13               AND THAT ITEM WAS TURNED OVER TO MR. YAMAUCHI
           14   FOR FURTHER ANALYSIS ON JUNE 15, 1994?
           15         A.    YES, IT WAS.
           16         Q.    NOW, DID YOU ALSO COLLECT A GLOVE FROM THE
           17   HOUSE AT 360 ROCKINGHAM FOR FURTHER ANALYSIS?
           18         A.    YES, I DID.
           19         Q.    SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 4 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
           20               IF YOU CAN TELL ME, DO YOU SEE THE ITEM THAT
           21   YOU COLLECTED FROM THAT LOCATION IN THIS EXHIBIT?
           22         A.    YES, I DO.
           23               I CAN'T REALLY MAKE IT OUT IN -A.
           24               HOWEVER, IN PHOTOGRAPH -B, YOU CAN SEE A DARK
           25   SPOT HERE.
           26               THEN, GOING ON TO PHOTOGRAPH -C, YOU CAN SEE A
           27   BETTER VIEW OF THAT DARK SPOT.
           28               AND IN PHOTOGRAPH -D, YOU CAN SEE THAT IT IS A

                                                                          395

            1   GLOVE.
            2               AND THEN IN PHOTOGRAPH -E, YOU CAN SEE A
            3   PICTURE THAT WE TOOK BACK AT THE LABORATORY.
            4         Q.    NOW, THAT PICTURE HAS AN ITEM NUMBER, RIGHT,
            5   ITEM NO. 9?
            6         A.    YES.
            7         Q.    ITEM NO. 9 IS THE NUMBER ASSOCIATED WITH THE
            8   GLOVE THAT YOU FOUND AT MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE ON ROCKINGHAM?
            9         A.    YES.
           10         Q.    THE GLOVE THAT YOU FOUND AT THE CRIME SCENE,
           11   DID THAT HAVE A NUMBER AS WELL?
           12         A.    THE SOUTH BUNDY PREMISES.
           13         Q.    875 SOUTH BUNDY ADDRESS?
           14         A.    YES.
           15               THAT ALSO HAS AN ITEM NUMBER.
           16         Q.    CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THAT ITEM NUMBER IS.
           17         A.    REFERRING TO MY NOTES, THAT ITEM IS ITEM
           18   NO. 37, WHICH HAS PHOTO I.D. NO. 102.
           19               SORRY.
           20         Q.    SO WE HAVE TWO NUMBERS THAT MAY BE SHOWN IN
           21   THESE PHOTOGRAPHS.
           22               ONE IS FOR THE PHOTO IDENTIFICATION AND ONE IS
           23   THE NUMBER YOU ASSIGN.
           24               IS THAT RIGHT?
           25         A.    YES.
           26         Q.    SHOWING YOU THE EXHIBITS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY
           27   MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 30 AND 31, SIR.
           28               CAN YOU TELL US IF THESE ITEMS ARE SHOWN --

                                                                          396

            1   THAT ARE SHOWN HERE REFLECT THE GLOVE THAT YOU COLLECTED
            2   FROM THE CRIME SCENE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY AND FROM THE HOME
            3   OF MR. SIMPSON AT 360 ROCKINGHAM AVENUE, BOTH IN
            4   LOS ANGELES COUNTY.
            5         A.    YES, THEY DO.
            6         Q.    AND ITEM 37 WAS THE ONE FROM THE CRIME SCENE AT
            7   BUNDY DRIVE?
            8         A.    YES, IT WAS.
            9         Q.    NOW, DID YOU PERFORM SOME ANALYSIS ON THESE
           10   GLOVES BEFORE YOU TOOK THEM IN?
           11         A.    I PERFORMED A PRESUMPTIVE TEST FOR BLOOD ON THE
           12   GLOVE AT ROCKINGHAM AND DETERMINED THAT THE STAIN ON THE
           13   GLOVE INDICATED THE PRESENCE OF BLOOD.
           14         Q.    THE ONE FROM ROCKINGHAM CONTAINED BLOOD?
           15         A.    ACCORDING TO THE PRESUMPTIVE TEST, YES.
           16         Q.    HAVE YOU DONE ANY TESTING YET ON THE GLOVE
           17   RECOVERED FROM 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
           18         A.    I ALSO DID A PRESUMPTIVE TEST FOR BLOOD ON
           19   THAT, AND IT CAME BACK INDICATING THE PRESENCE OF BLOOD ON
           20   THAT GLOVE ALSO.
           21         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO THE BLOOD -- EXCUSE ME -- THE
           22   GLOVE RECOVERED FROM MR. SIMPSON'S RESIDENCE, YOUR ITEM
           23   NO. 9 --
           24         A.    YES.
           25         Q.    -- THAT YOU HAVE IDENTIFIED IN ALL OF THE
           26   PHOTOGRAPHS PREVIOUSLY, DID YOU COLLECT THAT AND PRESERVE
           27   IT IN A MANNER THAT WOULD PREVENT IT FROM BEING
           28   CONTAMINATED?

                                                                          397

            1         A.    YES, I DID.
            2         Q.    HOW WAS THAT?
            3         A.    I PLACED THE GLOVE IN A PAPER BAG AND LATER PUT
            4   IT INTO THE FROZEN STORAGE AREA OF THE LAB, BOOKED IT INTO
            5   FROZEN STORAGE.
            6         Q.    THE GLOVE RECOVERED FROM MR. SIMPSON'S
            7   RESIDENCE, DO YOU RECALL GIVING THAT TO MR. YAMAUCHI FOR
            8   FURTHER ANALYSIS?
            9         A.    YES, I DID.
           10         Q.    DID YOU DO THAT BEFORE YOU PUT IT INTO FROZEN
           11   STORAGE?
           12         A.    YES, I DID.
           13         Q.    HOW DID YOU PACKAGE THAT GLOVE?
           14         A.    AT THE TIME THAT I GAVE IT TO MR. YAMAUCHI?
           15         Q.    WHEN YOU RECOVERED IT FROM THE CRIME SCENE.
           16         A.    I PLACED IT IN A PAPER BAG.
           17         Q.    DID YOU PLACE THE D.R. NUMBER ON THAT PAPER
           18   BAG?
           19         A.    WHEN I GOT THE D.R., YES.
           20         Q.    WAS THAT THE D.R. NUMBER THAT YOU PLACED ON
           21   THAT BAG -- IS THAT THE ONE THAT HAS BEEN ASSIGNED TO THIS
           22   CASE THAT YOU HAVE READ TO US PREVIOUSLY?
           23         A.    YES, IT IS.
           24         Q.    ON WHAT DATE DID YOU GIVE THAT GLOVE RECOVERED
           25   FROM THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS TO MR. YAMAUCHI?
           26         A.    THAT WAS GIVEN TO MR. YAMAUCHI ON JUNE 14,
           27   1994.
           28         Q.    DID YOU ALSO RECEIVE A BLOOD SAMPLE THAT WAS

                                                                          398

            1   REMOVED FROM THE DEFENDANT, THE POSSIBLE DEFENDANT
            2   MR. SIMPSON, FROM DETECTIVE PHILLIP VANNATTER?
            3         A.    YES, I DID.
            4         Q.    AND WHAT DATE WAS IT THAT YOU RECEIVED IT FROM
            5   HIM?
            6         A.    I RECEIVED THAT BLOOD SAMPLE ON JUNE 13, 1994.
            7         Q.    DID YOU PACKAGE IT IN SOME MANNER WHEN YOU
            8   RECEIVED IT FROM HIM?
            9         A.    YES, I DID.
           10         Q.    HOW?
           11         A.    I PLACED IT IN A GRAY WHOLE BLOOD ENVELOPE.
           12         Q.    DID YOU CAUSE THE D.R. NUMBER FOR THIS CASE TO
           13   BE PLACED ON THAT ENVELOPE?
           14         A.    YES, I DID.
           15         Q.    AND WHAT DID YOU DO WITH IT AFTER THAT?
           16         A.    I GAVE THE SAMPLE TO MR. YAMAUCHI FOR TESTING.
           17         Q.    ON WHAT DATE?
           18         A.    ON, I BELIEVE, JUNE 14, 1994.
           19         Q.    DO YOU RECALL EXAMINING THE UPSTAIRS LOCATION
           20   AT -- THE UPSTAIRS OF THE RESIDENCE AT THE LOCATION OF 360
           21   ROCKINGHAM?
           22         A.    YES, I DID.
           23         MS. CLARK:  I THINK THIS IS THE LAST EXHIBIT WE WILL
           24   BE MARKING.
           25               MARK IT PEOPLE'S 33.
           26         THE FOREPERSON:  SO ORDERED.
           27                (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 33.)

           28         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 33, SIR,

                                                                          399

            1   PHOTOGRAPHS -A THROUGH -F.
            2         A.    YES.
            3         Q.    IS THAT YOU IN PHOTOGRAPH -C?
            4         A.    YES, IT IS.
            5         Q.    CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IS BEING SHOWN IN EACH OF
            6   THESE PHOTOGRAPHS.
            7         A.    IN PHOTOGRAPH -A, WE ARE SHOWING THAT THERE IS
            8   A PRESUMPTIVE POSITIVE TEST NEXT TO THE CARD LABELED 14.
            9               WE COLLECTED THAT STAIN IN THE MASTER
           10   BATHROOM.  I DID A PRESUMPTIVE TEST FOR BLOOD IN THE SINK
           11   DRAIN AND IT CAME BACK INDICATING THE PRESENCE OF BLOOD IN
           12   THE SINK DRAIN.
           13               I ALSO DID A PRESUMPTIVE TEST IN THE SHOWER
           14   DRAIN, AND THERE WAS ALSO A POSITIVE TEST INDICATING THE
           15   PRESENCE OF BLOOD IN THE SHOWER DRAIN.
           16         Q.    WAS THERE ENOUGH BLOOD IN ANY OF THOSE
           17   LOCATIONS FOR BLOOD TYPING?
           18         A.    THE STAIN THAT IS LABELED 14 IN PHOTOGRAPHS -B
           19   AND -A WAS COLLECTED AND IT WAS SUBMITTED FOR ANALYSIS.  I
           20   DON'T KNOW THE RESULTS.
           21               HOWEVER, THE OTHER TWO TESTS THAT WERE DONE IN
           22   THE SINK AND IN THE DRAIN, THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH BLOOD THERE
           23   TO COLLECT.
           24         Q.    SO THE BLOOD SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S 32, PHOTOGRAPHS
           25   -A AND -B, WAS SUFFICIENT FOR FURTHER TESTING; BUT THAT
           26   SHOWN IN -C, -D, -E AND -F OF THAT EXHIBIT WAS NOT?
           27         A.    THAT IS CORRECT.
           28         Q.    WHEN YOU SAY, "PRESUMPTIVE TESTING," CAN YOU

                                                                          400

            1   TELL US WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
            2         A.    A PRESUMPTIVE TEST MEANS WE HAVE A TEST THAT IS
            3   NOT CONCLUSIVE.  THERE ARE OTHER COMPOUNDS OR SUBSTANCES
            4   THAT MAY GIVE A FALSE POSITIVE.
            5               HOWEVER, THEY ARE USUALLY FAIRLY RELIABLE.  BUT
            6   YOU CAN'T DEFINITELY SAY THAT SOMETHING IS BLOOD FROM THIS
            7   TEST ALONE.
            8         Q.    SO IT'S A SCREENING TEST, BUT NOT A FINAL
            9   CONCLUSION.
           10               IS THAT RIGHT?
           11         A.    YES.
           12         MS. CLARK:  I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
           13         THE FOREPERSON:  IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
           14   HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
           15               THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
           16   SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
           17
           18                         (SHORT PAUSE.)
           19
           20         MS. CLARK:  MAY I ASK ONE FURTHER QUESTION?
           21         Q.    CAN YOU PLEASE IDENTIFY FOR US BY ITEM NUMBER
           22   THE GLOVE RECOVERED FROM MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE.
           23         A.    YES.
           24               THE GLOVE RECOVERED FROM MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE IS
           25   ITEM NO. 9.
           26         Q.    AND THE BLOOD TAKEN FROM THE BLOOD TRAIL
           27   LEADING AWAY FROM THE BODIES OF THE VICTIMS AT 875 SOUTH
           28   BUNDY?

                                                                          401

            1         A.    THOSE ARE ITEMS NO. 47 WITH PHOTO I.D. 112;
            2   ITEM 48, WHICH IS PHOTO I.D. 113; ITEM NO. 49, WHICH IS
            3   PHOTO I.D. 114; ITEM NO. 50, PHOTO I.D. 115; AND, ITEM
            4   NO. 52, WHICH IS PHOTO I.D. NO. 117.
            5         Q.    AND THE BLOOD FROM THE FOYER OF THE SUSPECT'S
            6   RESIDENCE AT 360 ROCKINGHAM AVENUE?
            7         A.    THE ITEM NUMBER OF THE RED STAIN IN THE FOYER
            8   WAS ITEM NO. 12.
            9         Q.    THE BLOOD FROM THE DOOR HANDLE OF THE FORD
           10   BRONCO?
           11         A.    ARE WE REFERRING TO THE BLOOD INTERIOR?
           12         Q.    THE BLOOD FROM THE DOOR HANDLE OF THE FORD
           13   BRONCO.
           14         A.    INTERIOR OR EXTERIOR?
           15         Q.    OH, THERE WAS BOTH?
           16         A.    YES.
           17         Q.    WHICH ONE DID YOU SUBMIT TO MR. YAMAUCHI ON
           18   JUNE 15?
           19         A.    THAT WAS THE INTERIOR DOOR HANDLE ONE.
           20         Q.    OKAY.
           21               WHAT IS THAT ITEM NUMBER?
           22         A.    I HAVE AS TO MAKE A CORRECTION.
           23               THAT WAS RECOVERED FROM THE INTERIOR DOOR, NOT
           24   NECESSARILY THE HANDLE.  IT WAS ON THE DRIVER WALL.
           25               AND THAT WAS SUBMITTED TO YAMAUCHI ON JUNE 15.
           26         Q.    WHAT IS THE ITEM NUMBER?
           27         A.    THAT IS ITEM NO. 23.
           28         Q.    WERE THERE ITEM NUMBERS GIVEN FOR BLOOD TAKEN

                                                                          402

            1   FROM THE VICTIMS AT THE AUTOPSY?
            2         A.    YES, THEY WERE.
            3         Q.    WHAT WERE THOSE ITEM NUMBERS?
            4         A.    ITEM NUMBERS FROM THE BLOOD TAKEN AT THE
            5   AUTOPSY WERE ITEM NO. 59, AND THAT WAS THE BLOOD LABELED
            6   "NICOLE SIMPSON BROWN"; AND ITEM NO. 60 WAS A BLOOD VIAL
            7   LABELED "RONALD GOLDMAN."
            8         Q.    DID YOU CAUSE AT ANY POINT THE D.R. NUMBER THAT
            9   YOU PREVIOUSLY READ TO US THAT WAS ASSIGNED TO THIS CASE TO
           10   BE MADE ON THE ENVELOPE CONTAINING THOSE BLOOD SAMPLES FROM
           11   NICOLE SIMPSON AND RON GOLDMAN?
           12         A.    YES.
           13         Q.    THE BLOOD TAKEN FROM THE SUSPECT, MR. SIMPSON,
           14   WAS A D.R. NUMBER AND ITEM NUMBER PLACED ON THAT?
           15         A.    YES, IT WAS.
           16               THAT IS ITEM NUMBER -- IT WAS ASSIGNED ITEM
           17   NO. 17.
           18         Q.    DID YOU CAUSE THE D.R. NUMBER THAT YOU HAVE
           19   PREVIOUSLY READ TO US IN THIS CASE TO BE PLACED ON THAT AS
           20   WELL?
           21         A.    YES.
           22         Q.    THEN THE ITEMS THAT YOU COLLECTED, ITEMS
           23   NO. 23, 12, WERE THOSE BOTH TURNED OVER BY YOURSELF TO
           24   MR. YAMAUCHI BEARING THE D.R. NUMBER FROM THIS CASE ON
           25   JUNE 15?
           26         A.    YES.
           27         Q.    AND ITEMS NUMBERS 9, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52 AND
           28   17 WERE TURNED OVER BY YOURSELF TO MR. YAMAUCHI ON JUNE 14?

                                                                          403

            1         A.    YES.
            2         Q.    AND, AGAIN, ALL OF THOSE ITEMS WERE BEARING THE
            3   D.R. NUMBER ASSIGNED TO THIS CASE YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY
            4   READ?
            5         A.    YES.
            6         MS. CLARK:  NOTHING FURTHER.
            7               WE HAVE QUESTIONS FROM THE GRAND JURORS.
            8               DO YOU WANT ME TO DO THEY OR DO THEY TOMORROW?
            9               WE COULD COMPLETE THIS WITNESS TODAY OR --
           10         THE FOREPERSON:  I BELIEVE THE GRAND JURY IS IN
           11   SUPPORT OF COMPLETING THE QUESTIONS.
           12
           13                         (SHORT PAUSE.)
           14
           15         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  DID YOU TEST ANY OF THE OTHER
           16   DRAINS IN THE ROCKINGHAM HOUSE OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU HAVE
           17   DESCRIBED TO US THUS FAR IN THE SHOWER AND THE BATHROOM?
           18         A.    NO, I DID NOT.
           19         Q.    WHY NOT?
           20         A.    THEY DID NOT APPEAR TO BE USED.
           21         Q.    THEY DID NOT APPEAR TO BE WET?
           22         A.    NOT NECESSARILY WET, BUT THEY DIDN'T APPEAR TO
           23   BE DISTURBED.
           24         Q.    SO THEY DID NOT APPEAR TO YOU TO HAVE BEEN
           25   RECENTLY USED?
           26         A.    YES.
           27         Q.    SO YOU CONFINED YOUR EXAMINATION TO THE AREA
           28   THAT SEEMED TO BE RECENTLY IN USE?

                                                                          404

            1         A.    YES.
            2         Q.    THAT WAS THE AREA OF THE MASTER BEDROOM?
            3         A.    YES.  OR MASTER BATHROOM, YES.
            4         Q.    BATHROOM.
            5               DID IT APPEAR TO YOU, SIR, THAT THE BLOOD DROPS
            6   WERE TO THE LEFT OF THE FOOTPRINTS LEADING AWAY FROM THE
            7   BODIES AT THE CRIME SCENE LOCATED AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
            8         A.    THEY DID APPEAR THAT WAY, YES.
            9         Q.    CAN YOU DETERMINE THE AGE OF BLOOD DROPS, SIR?
           10   HOW RECENTLY THEY WERE LEFT?
           11         A.    IN A GENERAL SENSE, YES.
           12         Q.    AND TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
           13         A.    I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY HOURS A BLOOD DROP IS
           14   OLD; HOWEVER, I CAN TELL YOU ON THIS DAY, WHEN WE WERE AT
           15   THE CRIME SCENE OF MR. SIMPSON'S RESIDENCE IN THE MORNING,
           16   THE BLOOD DROPS APPEARED TO BE FAIRLY FRESH.  THEY HAD A
           17   REDDISH TINGE TO THEM.
           18               HOWEVER, BY THE END OF THE DAY WHEN WE RETURNED
           19   AROUND 4:00 O'CLOCK OR 5:00 O'CLOCK, AROUND THERE, THE SAME
           20   BLOOD DROPS WERE A DARK BROWN.
           21         Q.    DID YOU FORM ANY -- WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU
           22   WERE COLLECTING THOSE BLOOD DROPS?
           23         A.    THE BLOOD DROPS AT MR. SIMPSON'S RESIDENCE WERE
           24   RECOVERED IN THE EARLY MORNING, AROUND 8:00 O'CLOCK.
           25         Q.    AND WHAT ABOUT THE BLOOD DROPS AT THE CRIME
           26   SCENE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY DRIVE?
           27         A.    THOSE WERE COLLECTED BETWEEN THE HOURS OF
           28   11:00 O'CLOCK AND 4:00 O'CLOCK.

                                                                          405

            1         Q.    SO THOSE WERE COLLECTED AFTERWARDS, AFTER THE
            2   BLOOD DROPS WERE COLLECTED AT MR. SIMPSON'S RESIDENCE?
            3         A.    YES.
            4               EXCEPT FOR THE BLOOD STAINS THAT WERE COLLECTED
            5   INSIDE OF MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE.  THOSE WERE COLLECTED IN THE
            6   LATE AFTERNOON.
            7         Q.    WERE THOSE THE LAST TO BE COLLECTED?
            8         A.    ON THAT DAY, YES.
            9         Q.    DID YOU RESPOND TO THE CRIME SCENE AT 875 SOUTH
           10   BUNDY FIRST BEFORE GOING TO MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE?
           11         A.    NO.
           12         Q.    YOU WENT TO MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE FIRST?
           13         A.    YES.
           14         Q.    SO THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW THE BLOOD DROPS AT
           15   ALONG WHAT WE HAVE TERMED THE ESCAPE ROUTE AT 875 SOUTH
           16   BUNDY, WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THOSE?
           17         A.    WE ARRIVED AT THAT SCENE, OR I ARRIVED AT THAT
           18   SCENE AT 10:15, AND I ESTIMATE THE TIME THAT I FIRST SAW
           19   THE ESCAPE ROUTE BLOOD STAINS WAS AT APPROXIMATELY 11,
           20   11:00 O'CLOCK.
           21         Q.    WHICH WERE THE BLOOD DROPS THAT YOU SAID LOOKED
           22   MORE BROWN OR DARK RED THAN WHEN YOU SAW THEM THE FIRST
           23   TIME WHEN THEY APPEARED MORE LIGHT RED?
           24         A.    THOSE ARE THE STAINS AT MR. SIMPSON'S
           25   RESIDENCE, WHICH WERE ITEM -- TO BE EXACT, THAT ITEM WAS
           26   ITEM NO. 8.
           27         Q.    ITEM NO. 8.
           28               THAT WAS IN THE OUTSIDE WALK WHERE YOU HAVE

                                                                          406

            1   IDENTIFIED IT EARLIER?
            2         A.    YES.
            3         Q.    DID YOU RECORD THE SHOE PRINT PATTERN THAT YOU
            4   OBSERVED ALONG THE ESCAPE ROUTE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY IN SOME
            5   MANNER?
            6         A.    YES.
            7               THOSE SHOE PRINTS WERE PHOTOGRAPHED BY THE
            8   PHOTOGRAPHER IN -- WITH A TRIPOD AT A PERPENDICULAR ANGLE
            9   TO THE SHOE PRINTS.
           10         Q.    THAT IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF ATTEMPTING TO
           11   IDENTIFY THE SHOES, IF THEY ARE EVER FOUND?
           12         A.    THAT IS CORRECT.
           13         Q.    DO YOU RECALL RETRIEVING A HAT OR OTHER OBJECT
           14   ON THE DRIVER'S FLOOR MAT AREA IN THE FORD BRONCO?
           15         A.    YES, I DO.
           16         Q.    WHAT KIND OF HAT WAS THAT?
           17         A.    THAT WAS ONE OF THOSE -- I DON'T KNOW HOW TO
           18   REALLY DESCRIBE IT.
           19               IT'S ONE OF THOSE ENGLISH DRIVING STYLE TYPE
           20   HATS.  IT'S A PLAID TYPE HAT.
           21         Q.    WOOL?
           22         A.    YES, IT RESEMBLED WOOL TO ME.
           23         Q.    DID IT HAVE LIKE A LITTLE BRIM THAT WOULD SNAP
           24   TO THE CAP ITSELF?
           25         A.    I BELIEVE SO, YES.
           26         Q.    SO IT WOULD FIT KIND OF LIKE A LITTLE BERET?
           27         A.    YES.
           28         Q.    IF THE POLICE FOUND THAT FORD BRONCO WITH THE

                                                                          407

            1   HAT IN THE DRIVER'S FEET AREA WHERE THE DRIVE WOULD PUT HIS
            2   FEET, WOULD THEY LEAVE IT THERE FOR YOU TO FIND IN THE SAME
            3   MANNER IN WHICH THEY SAW IT?
            4         A.    YES.
            5         Q.    SO WHEN THE POLICE OBSERVE ITEMS AT A CRIME
            6   SCENE, THEY OBSERVE THEM, BUT THEY DO NOT TOUCH OR REMOVE
            7   THEM UNTIL YOU HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO SEE THEM AND THEN YOU
            8   REMOVE THEM?
            9         A.    THAT WAS WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS CASE.
           10         Q.    IS THAT WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN?
           11         A.    YES.
           12         Q.    SO IT'S STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE IN THE WAY
           13   THEY SHOULD PROCEED, AND DID IN THIS CASE, IS TO OBSERVE
           14   AND ALLOW YOU TO RECOVER?
           15         A.    YES.
           16         Q.    DID YOU EXAMINE THE GLOVES RECOVERED FROM THE
           17   CRIME SCENE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY AND THE HOME BY MR. SIMPSON
           18   AT 360 ROCKINGHAM FOR CUTS OR NICKS?
           19         A.    YES, I DID.
           20         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO THE GLOVE RECOVERED FROM THE
           21   ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS, DID YOU SEE ANY NICKS OR CUTS ON THAT
           22   GLOVE, THAT'S ITEM NO. 37 -- NO.  EXCUSE ME.
           23               DID I SAY, "ROCKINGHAM"?
           24               ITEM NO. 9.
           25         A.    I'M GOING STRICTLY FROM MEMORY HERE.
           26         Q.    YOU DON'T RECALL -- YOU DON'T HAVE ANY PERSONAL
           27   KNOWLEDGE AT THIS TIME?
           28         A.    NO.

                                                                          408

            1               I DON'T HAVE ANY NOTES REGARDING WHICH GLOVE
            2   HAS WHICH NICKS.
            3               I DO KNOW ONE GLOVE DOES AND ONE GLOVE DOESN'T,
            4   BUT I DON'T WANT TO GIVE THE WRONG INFORMATION HERE.
            5         Q.    THEN DON'T.
            6               BUT DO YOU RECALL SEEING NICKS IN ONE OF THE
            7   GLOVES?
            8         A.    YES.
            9         Q.    WAS THE BLOOD BETWEEN THE TWO VICTIMS ANALYZED,
           10   EITHER THE BLOOD ON THE FLOOR, ON THE GROUND BETWEEN THE
           11   TWO VICTIMS ANALYZED OR COLLECTED FOR ANALYSIS?
           12         A.    WE DID COLLECT OR TRY TO COLLECT BLOOD, THAT
           13   BLOOD, AND IT WAS ANALYZED, YES.
           14         Q.    NOW, THE BLOOD BETWEEN THE TWO VICTIMS, CAN YOU
           15   DESCRIBE IT FOR US.
           16               WAS IT A POOL OF BLOOD?  WAS IT A TRICKLE?  WAS
           17   THERE A TRAIL OF IT LEADING FROM ONE TO THE ANOTHER?
           18         A.    THERE APPEARED TO BE ONE -- ONE AREA THAT HAD A
           19   GREAT DEAL OF BLOOD THAT HAD BEEN DRAINED FROM THE FEMALE
           20   VICTIM.  AND BY THE TIME I GOT TO THE CRIME SCENE, THEY HAD
           21   SPREAD A BLANKET OUT AND THE BLANKET WAS BLOOD SOAKED
           22   ALSO.
           23               THE AREA WHERE THE MALE VICTIM WAS HAD POOLS OF
           24   BLOOD IN THE DIRT.  THAT'S AS BEST AS I CAN DESCRIBE IT.
           25         Q.    DID YOU OBSERVE A TRAIL OF BLOOD BETWEEN THEM,
           26   TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, AT THIS TIME?
           27         A.    NOT REALLY, NO.
           28         Q.    WAS THERE ANY BLOOD ON THE STEERING WHEEL OF

                                                                          409

            1   THE BRONCO?
            2         A.    YES, THERE WAS.
            3         Q.    WAS THAT COLLECTED, SIR?
            4         A.    YES, IT WAS.
            5         Q.    DID YOU PERFORM A PRESUMPTIVE TEST FOR BLOOD ON
            6   THAT?
            7         A.    YES, I DID.
            8         Q.    WHAT WAS THE RESULT?
            9         A.    IT CAME BACK POSITIVE FOR THE PRESENCE OF
           10   BLOOD.
           11         Q.    THAT PRESUMPTIVE TEST YOU DESCRIBED TO US, IS
           12   THAT ACCEPTED AS RELIABLE IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY, SIR?
           13         A.    IT'S ACCEPTED AS A PRESUMPTIVE TEST AND IT IS
           14   FAIRLY RELIABLE, YES.
           15         Q.    AS A PRESUMPTIVE TEST, IS IT ACCEPTED IN THE
           16   SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY AS A RELIABLE PRESUMPTIVE TEST?
           17         A.    YES IT IS.
           18         MS. CLARK:  NOTHING FURTHER.
           19         THE FOREPERSON:  THERE BEING NO ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS,
           20   MR. FUNG BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY TO
           21   WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW.
           22               YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
           23   PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
           24   ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
           25               IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
           26   MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
           27   INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
           28   HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE

                                                                          410

            1   PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
            2               I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
            3   THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
            4   YOU.
            5               DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
            6         THE WITNESS:  YES, I DO.
            7         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
            8               YOU ARE EXCUSED.
            9         THE WITNESS:  THANK YOU.
           10
           11                   (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
           12                       JURY HEARING ROOM.)
           13
           14         THE FOREPERSON:  WE ARE IN RECESS IN THIS MATTER
           15   UNTIL TOMORROW.
           16               THE GRAND JURORS NEED TO REPORT TO THE HEARING
           17   ROOM AT 9:00 O'CLOCK.
           18               THE GRAND JURORS HAVE BEEN ADMONISHED REGARDING
           19   DISCUSSION OF THE CASE.
           20               PLEASE REMEMBER AND FOLLOW THE ADMONISHMENT.
           21
           22                  (EVENING ADJOURNMENT TAKEN.)
           23                             -O0O-
           24
           25
           26
           27
           28

                                                                          411

            1        LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, JUNE 23, 1994
            2                           11:10 A.M.
            3                             -O0O-
            4
            5             (AT THE BEGINNING OF THESE PROCEEDINGS,
            6                 20 GRAND JURORS WERE PRESENT.)
            7
            8         THE FOREPERSON:  THIS HEARING IS NOW IN SESSION.
            9               WE ARE CONTINUING THIS MORNING WITH:
           10                      "NAME OF POSSIBLE DEFENDANT:
           11                      "ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON."
           12               THE DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY ARE MARCIA CLARK
           13   AND DAVID CONN.
           14               MADAME SECRETARY?
           15
           16                         (ROLL CALLED.)
           17
           18         THE SECRETARY:  LET THE RECORD REFLECT THERE ARE
           19   TWENTY GRAND JURORS PRESENT.
           20         THE FOREPERSON:  GOOD MORNING, DEPUTIES DISTRICT
           21   ATTORNEY MARCIA CLARK AND DAVID CONN.
           22         MS. CLARK:  GOOD MORNING, MADAME FOREMAN.
           23         THE FOREPERSON:  YOU MAY PROCEED.
           24         MS. CLARK:  MAY I BEGIN BY THANKING YOU VERY MUCH,
           25   THE MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY THAT PERMITTED ME TO GO
           26   OVERTIME LAST NIGHT.  I APPRECIATE THEIR GRACIOUSNESS IN
           27   ALLOWING ME TO IMPINGE ON THEIR SCHEDULES TO COMPLETE THAT
           28   WITNESS.

                                                                          412

            1               THEY HAVE BEEN VERY GRACIOUS AND FORGIVING TO
            2   US THROUGHOUT THESE PROCEEDINGS, AND I WISH TO EXTEND MY
            3   DEEPEST APPRECIATION FOR THAT.
            4               THE PEOPLE RECALL JILL SHIVELY.
            5         THE FOREPERSON:  GOOD MORNING, MISS SHIVELY.
            6               MISS SHIVELY, YOU WILL RECALL THAT YOU HAVE
            7   BEEN SWORN AND ARE -- ARE PREVIOUSLY SWORN AND ARE STILL
            8   UNDER OATH.
            9         THE WITNESS:  YES.  YES, I DO.
           10         THE FOREPERSON:  IF YOU WOULD PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME
           11   FOR THE RECORD.
           12         THE WITNESS:  JILL SHIVELY.

           13               S-H-I-V-E-L-Y.
           14         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
           15               YOU MAY PROCEED.
           16
           17                         JILL SHIVELY,
           18   RECALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND
           19   JURY, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY DULY SWORN, RESUMED THE STAND
           20   AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
           21
           22                E X A M I N A T I O N  (RESUMED)
           23   BY MS. CLARK:
           24         Q.    MISS SHIVELY, YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY APPEARED AND
           25   TESTIFIED BEFORE THIS GRAND JURY ON JUNE 21, WHICH WAS
           26   TUESDAY OF THIS WEEK.
           27         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           28         Q.    NOW, CONCERNING THE MATTER BEFORE -- THE MATTER

                                                                          413

            1   TO WHICH YOU TESTIFIED ON JUNE 21, DID YOU FIRST CONTACT
            2   THE POLICE CONCERNING YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THESE EVENTS ON
            3   JUNE 14?
            4         A.    YES, I DID.
            5         Q.    AND YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY THE POLICE ON THE
            6   FOLLOWING DAY, JUNE THE 15TH?
            7         A.    I THINK, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, I WAS
            8   INTERVIEWED RIGHT AWAY.
            9               I THINK IT WAS THE NEXT DAY.
           10         Q.    AND THEN YOU WERE SUBPOENAED TO APPEAR BEFORE
           11   THIS GRAND JURY ON SATURDAY, JUNE 18?
           12         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           13         Q.    AND THEN YOU HAD AN INTERVIEW -- YOU WERE
           14   INTERVIEWED BY A TELEVISION NEWS PROGRAM CALLED "HARD COPY"
           15   CONCERNING THIS SUBJECT MATTER TO WHICH YOU LATER TESTIFIED
           16   BEFORE THIS GRAND JURY AND DURING WHICH YOU SHOWED YOUR
           17   SUBPOENA ON CAMERA?
           18         A.    THAT'S CORRECT; I DID.
           19         Q.    AND THAT INTERVIEW WAS CONDUCTED ON MONDAY,
           20   JUNE THE 20TH, ON THE AFTERNOON OF THAT DAY?
           21         A.    YES, IT WAS.
           22         Q.    AND YOU WERE PROMISED PAYMENT BY "HARD COPY"
           23   FOR THAT INTERVIEW OF $5,000.
           24               IS THAT RIGHT?
           25         A.    THAT IS CORRECT.
           26         Q.    ON THE NIGHT AFTER YOUR INTERVIEW -- THAT IS,
           27   YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY "HARD COPY" ON MONDAY AFTERNOON,
           28   JUNE 20.

                                                                          414

            1               FOLLOWING THAT INTERVIEW, YOU CONTACTED A
            2   DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY WITH WHOM YOU WERE ACQUAINTED --
            3   NOT MYSELF OR MR. CONN -- AND YOU INDICATED TO HIM THAT YOU
            4   WERE CONCERNED AND NERVOUS ABOUT ALL THE MEDIA CONTACTS
            5   MADE TO YOU.
            6         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
            7         Q.    ON TUESDAY MORNING, JUNE 21, THE MORNING OF
            8   YOUR TESTIMONY WHEN YOU APPEARED TO TESTIFY BEFORE THIS
            9   GRAND JURY, YOU MET WITH MYSELF AND MR. CONN FOR THE VERY
           10   FIRST TIME.
           11               IS THAT CORRECT?
           12         A.    THAT'S TRUE.
           13         Q.    PRIOR TO THAT MORNING, WE HAD HAD NEITHER PHONE
           14   CONTACT OR ANY CONTACT AT ALL.
           15               IS THAT CORRECT?
           16         A.    THAT'S TRUE.
           17         Q.    AND JUST BEFORE YOU TESTIFIED BEFORE THIS GRAND
           18   JURY ON JUNE 21, MR. CONN AND MYSELF INTERVIEWED YOU IN THE
           19   CONFERENCE ROOM NEAR TO THIS JURY ROOM.
           20               IS THAT CORRECT?
           21         A.    THAT'S TRUE.
           22         Q.    DURING THE COURSE OF THAT INTERVIEW, YOU WERE
           23   ASKED BY MR. CONN WHETHER YOU HAD DISCUSSED THE SUBJECT
           24   MATTER OF YOUR INVOLVEMENT IN THIS CASE OR THE STATEMENT
           25   THAT YOU HAD GIVEN TO THE POLICE WITH ANYONE ELSE.
           26         A.    THAT'S TRUE.
           27         Q.    AND YOU TOLD HIM AT THAT TIME, YOU TOLD MYSELF,
           28   ALSO, THAT YOU HAD ONLY SPOKEN TO YOUR MOTHER?

                                                                          415

            1         A.    THAT'S TRUE.
            2         Q.    ON JUNE 22, WHICH WAS THE DAY AFTER YOUR
            3   INTERVIEW WITH "HARD COPY" -- EXCUSE ME -- ON JUNE 22, THE
            4   DAY AFTER YOUR INTERVIEW WITH "HARD COPY" WAS HEARD ON
            5   T.V., WE HAD YOU BROUGHT BACK TO THE OFFICE OF THE DISTRICT
            6   ATTORNEY FOR AN INTERVIEW WITH US.
            7               IS THAT CORRECT?
            8         A.    THAT'S TRUE.
            9         Q.    IT WAS ON THE EVENING OF YOUR TESTIMONY BEFORE
           10   THIS GRAND JURY TUESDAY, THAT WAS JUNE 21, THAT THE "HARD
           11   COPY" INTERVIEW WITH YOU CONCERNING YOUR TESTIMONY BEFORE
           12   THIS JURY WAS AIRED.
           13               IS THAT CORRECT?
           14         A.    THAT'S TRUE.
           15         Q.    THE VERY NEXT DAY, JUNE 22, YOU WERE BROUGHT
           16   INTO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE AND YOU SPOKE WITH
           17   MYSELF AND MR. CONN.
           18               IS THAT CORRECT?
           19         A.    THAT'S TRUE.
           20         Q.    AND WHEN MR. CONN ASKED YOU WHY YOU HAD TOLD US
           21   THAT YOU HAD ONLY SPOKEN TO YOUR MOTHER ABOUT THE SUBJECT
           22   MATTER OF YOUR TESTIMONY WHEN, IN FACT, YOU HAD ALSO SPOKEN
           23   TO AT LEAST "HARD COPY," YOU REPLIED THAT YOU DIDN'T
           24   REALIZE THAT HE MEANT ANYONE OTHER THAN FAMILY AND FRIENDS.
           25               IS THAT CORRECT?
           26         A.    I -- THAT'S CORRECT; THAT'S WHAT I SAID.
           27               AND I AM -- I WAS NERVOUS AND HADN'T SLEPT ALL
           28   WEEK AND WASN'T REALLY THINKING.

                                                                          416

            1               I WASN'T TRYING TO HIDE ANYTHING BECAUSE I KNEW
            2   IT WAS BEING AIRED THE NEXT DAY AND I ASSUMED I WOULD BE
            3   INVOLVED IN THE TRIAL, SO I WASN'T DOING ANYTHING TO BREAK
            4   THE TRUST.
            5               I REALLY DIDN'T THINK IT WAS WRONG.  I'M SORRY
            6   NOW.  BUT I WASN'T TRYING TO HIDE ANYTHING.  I HADN'T SLEPT
            7   ALL WEEK AND I WAS NERVOUS.
            8               I DON'T KNOW.  I -- I DID TALK TO THEM AND, YOU
            9   KNOW, I KNEW IT WOULD BE AIRED THE NEXT DAY SO I COULDN'T
           10   HIDE IT FROM YOU.
           11         Q.    BUT IT IS A FACT WHEN YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY
           12   MYSELF AND MR. CONN ON THE MORNING OF YOUR TESTIMONY THAT
           13   YOU INDICATED YOU HAD ONLY SPOKEN TO YOUR MOTHER ABOUT THE
           14   EVENTS OF THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12, 1994.
           15               IS THAT CORRECT?
           16         A.    THAT IS TRUE.
           17               AND I MISINTERPRETED THE QUESTION, BECAUSE ALL
           18   THE TIME PEOPLE WOULD ASK YOU, "WHO DID YOU SPEAK TO
           19   FIRST?"  AND THAT'S WHO I HAD SPOKEN TO FIRST.
           20               I DON'T REMEMBER MUCH.  I WAS NERVOUS ABOUT
           21   GOING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY AND THAT'S ALL I REMEMBER.
           22         Q.    IN ANY CASE, MS. SHIVELY, WHEN MR. CONN ASKED
           23   YOU WHO YOU HAD SPOKEN TO ABOUT THIS CASE, ABOUT YOUR
           24   INVOLVEMENT IN IT, YOU DID NOT TELL US THAT YOU HAD GIVEN
           25   AN INTERVIEWED ALREADY AT THAT POINT TO "HARD COPY."
           26               IS THAT CORRECT?
           27         A.    THAT'S TRUE; I DID NOT.
           28         Q.    AND IN THE COURSE OF OUR DISCUSSION, OUR

                                                                          417

            1   INTERVIEW WITH YOU WOULD FOLLOWING THE AIRING OF THE "HARD
            2   COPY" BROADCAST, THAT IS THE FOLLOWING MORNING AFTER THAT
            3   BROADCAST WAS AIRED --
            4         A.    RIGHT.
            5         Q.    -- YOU FURTHER INDICATED TO US THAT YOU HAD
            6   ALSO SPOKEN TO A COUPLE OF YOUR FRIENDS AND CO-WORKERS
            7   ABOUT THE SUBJECT MATTER OF YOUR TESTIMONY BEFORE WE SPOKE
            8   TO YOU FOR THE FIRST TIME ON TUESDAY, JUNE THE 21ST.
            9               ISN'T THAT TRUE?
           10         A.    RIGHT.
           11         Q.    AND YOU ALSO INDICATED TO US THAT AFTER YOU
           12   RECEIVED YOUR GRAND JURY SUBPOENA ON MONDAY WHEN YOU WENT
           13   TO WORK, YOU PUT IT ON YOUR BOSS' DESK, WHERE IT WAS IN
           14   FULL VIEW OF YOUR FELLOW CO-WORKERS.
           15               ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
           16         A.    THAT'S TRUE.
           17         Q.    AND YOU HAD SPOKEN TO THOSE FRIENDS AND
           18   CO-WORKERS AND DISPLAYED YOUR GRAND JURY SUBPOENA AND GIVEN
           19   AN INTERVIEW TO "HARD COPY" BEFORE YOU EVER SAW MYSELF OR
           20   MR. CONN ON JUNE THE 21ST, 1994?
           21         A.    RIGHT; THAT'S TRUE.
           22               I TALKED TO HIM ON MONDAY, ON THE MONDAY, THE
           23   20TH.
           24         Q.    AND YOU SPOKE TO US FOR THE FIRST TIME ON
           25   JUNE 21?
           26         A.    THAT'S CORRECT; RIGHT.
           27         MS. CLARK:  I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
           28         THE FOREPERSON:  IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY

                                                                          418

            1   HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
            2               THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
            3   SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
            4
            5                         (SHORT PAUSE.)
            6
            7         MR. WHITE:  THERE WILL BE NO QUESTIONS.
            8         THE FOREPERSON:  THERE WILL BE NO QUESTIONS.
            9               THANK YOU.
           10               MISS SHIVELY, YOU WILL RECALL THAT YOU HAVE
           11   PREVIOUSLY BEEN ADMONISHED REGARDING THE SECRECY OF THESE
           12   PROCEEDINGS AND MUST HEED THAT ADMONISHMENT.
           13         THE WITNESS:  OKAY.
           14         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
           15               YOU ARE EXCUSED.
           16         THE WITNESS:  THANK YOU.
           17
           18                   (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
           19                       JURY HEARING ROOM.)
           20
           21         MS. CLARK:  MADAME FOREMAN, IF I MAY ADDRESS THE
           22   GRAND JURY BRIEFLY AT THIS TIME.
           23         THE COURT:  YOU MAY DO SO.
           24         MS. CLARK:  THANK YOU.
           25               LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THIS JURY, BECAUSE IT
           26   IS OUR DUTY AS PROSECUTORS TO PRESENT ONLY THAT EVIDENCE IN
           27   WHICH WE ARE 110 PERCENT CONFIDENT AS TO ITS TRUTHFULNESS
           28   AND RELIABILITY, I I MUST NOW ASK YOU TO COMPLETELY

                                                                          419

            1   DISREGARD THE STATEMENTS GIVEN AND THE TESTIMONY GIVEN BY
            2   JILL SHIVELY IN THIS CASE.
            3               ALTHOUGH HER FAILURE TO TRUTHFULLY ANSWER A
            4   QUESTION POSED TO HER DURING AN INTERVIEW CANNOT SUBJECT
            5   HER TO PERJURY CHARGES GIVEN THE FACT THAT THE SUSPECT DOES
            6   NOT HAVE AN ATTORNEY PRESENT TO CROSS-EXAMINE HER AT THIS
            7   PROCEEDING AND THAT AT THIS POINT IN TIME WE HAVE NO WAY TO
            8   INDEPENDENTLY CORROBORATE HER TESTIMONY, I CANNOT ALLOW HER
            9   TO BE PART OF THIS CASE AT THIS TIME NOW THAT SHE HAS
           10   PROVEN TO BE UNTRUTHFUL AS TO ANY ASPECT OF HER STATEMENT.
           11               PLEASE COMPLETELY DISREGARD THE TESTIMONY OF
           12   JILL SHIVELY.  YOU MUST NOT ALLOW IT TO BE ANY PART OF YOUR
           13   CONSIDERATIONS OR DELIBERATIONS IN THIS MATTER.
           14               IF ANY OF YOU FEEL THAT YOU CANNOT DO SO, I
           15   ASK YOU NOW, PLEASE, IN FAIRNESS AND IN JUSTICE, EXCUSE
           16   YOURSELF FROM ANY FURTHER INVOLVEMENT IN THIS CASE.
           17               MADAME FOREMAN, I NOTICE THAT NO ONE HAS
           18   EXCUSED THEMSELVES.
           19         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
           20         MS. CLARK:  THANK YOU.
           21         THE FOREPERSON:  YOU MAY PROCEED.
           22         MS. CLARK:  THANK YOU.
           23               THE PEOPLE CALL COLLIN YAMAUCHI.
           24         THE FOREPERSON:  COLON YAMAUCHI, PLEASE RAISE YOUR
           25   RIGHT HAND.
           26               YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
           27   TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
           28   THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE

                                                                          420

            1   TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
            2         THE WITNESS:  YES.
            3         THE FOREPERSON:  PLEASE BE SEATED.
            4               MR. YAMAUCHI, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
            5   NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
            6         THE WITNESS:  COLLIN YAMAUCHI.
            7               FIRST NAME C-O-L-L-I-N, LAST NAME
            8   Y-A-M-A-U-C-H-I.
            9         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
           10               YOU MAY PROCEED.
           11         MS. CLARK:  THANK YOU.
           12
           13                        COLLIN YAMAUCHI,
           14   CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
           15   WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
           16
           17                      E X A M I N A T I O N
           18   BY MS. CLARK:
           19         Q.    MR. YAMAUCHI, WILL YOU PLEASE TELL THIS JURY
           20   WHAT IT IS YOU DO FOR A LIVING.
           21         A.    I'M A CRIMINALIST FOR THE SCIENTIFIC
           22   INVESTIGATION DIVISION OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE
           23   DEPARTMENT.
           24               BASICALLY A CRIMINALIST'S DUTIES ARE INVOLVED
           25   WITH THE COLLECTION AND PRESERVATION AND PROCESSING OF
           26   PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AND EVENTUAL ANALYSIS.
           27         Q.    AND CAN YOU TELL US WHAT EXACTLY IT IS YOU DO.
           28         A.    MY SPECIAL ASSIGNMENT, AS FAR AS ANALYSIS IS

                                                                          421

            1   CONCERNED, I'M ASSIGNED TO THE SEROLOGY UNIT.
            2         Q.    NOW, WHAT KIND OF TRAINING AND BACKGROUND DO
            3   YOU HAVE THAT QUALIFIES YOU TO DO THAT JOB?
            4         A.    WELL, I HAVE A BACHELOR'S DEGREE IN BIOLOGY
            5   FROM CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY LONG BEACH.
            6               UPON GRADUATION, I WORKED FOR 3-1/2 YEARS AS A
            7   A QUALITY CONTROL CHEMIST FOR I.C.N. RADIO CHEMICALS,
            8   INVOLVED WITH SOME MOLECULAR BIOLOGY AND OTHER VARIOUS
            9   LABORATORY PROCEDURES.
           10               SINCE WORKING FOR L.A.P.D., I HAVE SPENT THE
           11   FIRST 4 MONTHS FAMILIARIZING MYSELF WITH THEIR PROTOCOLS
           12   AND PROCEDURES.
           13               AND THROUGHOUT MY CAREER AT L.A.P.D., I HAVE
           14   BEEN TRAINED IN VARIOUS COURSES FROM THE CALIFORNIA
           15   CRIMINALISTICS INSTITUTE IN SACRAMENTO, WHICH IS A PART OF
           16   THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, IN VARIOUS CLASSES THAT ARE
           17   DIRECTLY RELATED TO SEROLOGY.
           18               I HAVE TAKEN A ROCHE, R-O-C-H-E, MOLECULAR
           19   CLASS ON P.C.R. UP IN ALAMEDA, CALIFORNIA.
           20         Q.    CAN YOU PLEASE PAUSE FOR A MOMENT AND EXPLAIN
           21   TO THE MEMBERS FOR THIS JURY WHAT YOU MEAN BY "P.C.R."
           22         A.    P.C.R. STANDS FOR POLYMERASE CHAIN REACTION.
           23               IT'S A TECHNIQUE WHICH ALLOWS SMALLER
           24   QUANTITIES OF D.N.A. TO BE AMPLIFIED INTO QUANTITIES THAT
           25   ARE LARGE ENOUGH TO ANALYZE.
           26         Q.    SO WITH THE P.C.R. TEST, IF YOU HAVE A SMALL
           27   AMOUNT OF BLOOD, THAT ORDINARILY WOULD NOT BE SUFFICIENT TO
           28   ALLOW YOU TO TEST FOR D.N.A.

                                                                          422

            1               THIS METHOD ALLOWS YOU BECAUSE IT AMPLIFIES
            2   WHAT YOU HAVE TO TEST THE D.N.A.
            3         A.    YES, IT'S POSSIBLE.
            4         Q.    SO IT IS A KIND OF D.N.A. TEST?
            5         A.    YES, IT IS.
            6         Q.    I'M SORRY.
            7               CONTINUE, PLEASE.
            8               YOU WERE TRAINED IN P.C.R.
            9         A.    TRAINED IN P.C.R., AND I ALSO HAD A MOLECULAR
           10   BIOLOGY CLASS THAT I WENT TO AT B.R.L., BETHESDA RESEARCH
           11   LABORATORIES, AND THAT WAS PART OF MY TRAINING WHEN I WAS
           12   AT I.C.N. RADIO CHEMICALS.
           13               THAT WOULD BE IT.
           14         Q.    HAVE YOU PREVIOUSLY TESTIFIED AS AN EXPERT IN
           15   THE FIELD OF SEROLOGY AND SEROLOGICAL ANALYSIS --
           16         A.    YES.
           17         Q.    -- IN SUPERIOR AND MUNICIPAL COURT?
           18         A.    YES.
           19         Q.    AND FOUND TO BE QUALIFIED BY THE COURT TO
           20   TESTIFY?
           21         A.    YES.
           22         Q.    AND WERE YOU ASSIGNED AS THE ANALYST, THE
           23   SEROLOGIST, TO DO THE BLOOD WORK OR THE BLOOD ANALYSIS IN
           24   THIS PARTICULAR CASE?
           25         A.    YES.
           26         Q.    NOW, EACH CASE THAT YOU WORK ON FOR THE
           27   LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS WHAT IS KNOWN AS A D.R.
           28   NUMBER.

                                                                          423

            1         A.    YES.
            2         Q.    AND DO YOUR REPORTS BEAR -- WHEN YOU CONDUCT
            3   ANALYSIS OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE, DOES EACH REPORT THAT YOU
            4   PREPARE CONCERNING YOUR CONCLUSIONS BEAR THAT D.R. NUMBER?
            5         A.    YES.
            6         Q.    DO THOSE REPORTS THAT YOU PREPARED IN THIS CASE
            7   ALSO BEAR THAT D.R. NUMBER?
            8         A.    YES.
            9         Q.    CAN YOU PLEASE TELL US IF YOU RECALL FROM
           10   MEMORY THE D.R. NUMBER THAT WAS ASSIGNED TO THIS CASE THAT
           11   WAS SHOWN ON THE EVIDENCE YOU ANALYZED IN CONNECTION WITH
           12   YOUR WORK IN THIS CASE.
           13         A.    94-08-17431, I BELIEVE, FROM MEMORY.
           14         Q.    NOW, CONCERNING ALL OF THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU
           15   ANALYZED UNDER THAT D.R. NUMBER, I'M GOING TO BE DIRECTING
           16   YOUR ATTENTION TO SPECIFIC ITEM NUMBERS.
           17               DOES EACH ITEM THAT YOU ANALYZE OR EXAMINE HAVE
           18   AN ITEM NUMBER ASSIGNED TO IT?
           19         A.    YES, IT DOES.
           20         Q.    AND IS THAT ITEM NUMBER ALREADY ASSIGNED AT THE
           21   TIME IT'S GIVEN TO YOU FOR ANALYSIS?
           22         A.    GENERALLY SPEAKING, YES.
           23               IN SOME INSTANCES WHERE EXPEDIENCY IS IN
           24   ISSUE, THEN THAT PART MIGHT BE CIRCUMVENTED AND THE CHAIN
           25   WOULD GO DIRECTLY BETWEEN MYSELF AND THE CRIMINALIST OR
           26   OFFICER THAT COLLECTED THE EVIDENCE.
           27         Q.    LET ME DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE ITEM
           28   NO. 59, DESCRIBED AS THE BLOOD OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.

                                                                          424

            1         A.    YES.
            2         Q.    AND ITEM NO. 60 DESCRIBED AS THE BLOOD OF
            3   RONALD GOLDMAN.
            4         A.    YES.
            5         Q.    DID YOU RECEIVE THOSE ITEMS FROM DETECTIVE
            6   PHILLIP VANNATTER ON JUNE 15, 1994.
            7         A.    YES.
            8         Q.    DO THOSE ITEMS ALSO BEAR A CORONER'S CASE
            9   NUMBER?
           10         A.    YES, THEY DO.
           11         Q.    DO YOU REMEMBER THAT CORNERS CASE NUMBER FROM
           12   MEMORY?
           13         A.    NO.
           14         Q.    IS IT REFLECTED IN YOUR NOTES?
           15         A.    IT'S ON MY REPORT.
           16         Q.    WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY AS TO THE
           17   CORONER'S CASE NUMBER ASSIGNED TO EACH OF THOSE ITEMS, IF
           18   YOU WERE TO LOOK AT YOUR REPORT?
           19         A.    YES.
           20         Q.    PLEASE DO SO.
           21         A.    FOR BROWN SIMPSON, NICOLE, CORONER'S CASE
           22   NO. 94-05136.
           23         Q.    THAT WAS ITEM NO. 59?
           24         A.    YES.
           25         Q.    AS TO ITEM NO. 60, THE BLOOD OF RONALD
           26   GOLDMAN --
           27         A.    UH-HUH.
           28         Q.    -- WAS THERE ANOTHER CORONER'S NUMBER FOR THAT

                                                                          425

            1   ONE, AS WELL?
            2         A.    YES.
            3               GOLDMAN, RONALD, 94-05135.
            4         Q.    NOW, WHAT SORT OF TEST DID YOU PERFORM ON THESE
            5   BLOOD SAMPLES?
            6         A.    P.C.R., H.L.A., D.Q. ALPHA.
            7         Q.    CAN YOU TELL THE MEMBERS OF THIS JURY WHAT THAT
            8   IS.
            9         A.    OKAY.
           10               WE WENT OVER THE P.C.R. SECTION, AND THAT STILL
           11   STANDS AND REMAINS THE SAME, AS FAR AS AMPLIFYING D.N.A.
           12               AS FAR AS THE H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA, IN ORDER TO
           13   GIVE A GOOD EXPLANATION, I'M GOING TO START FROM SOMETHING
           14   WE ARE ALL FAMILIAR WITH.
           15               WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT EYE COLORS.  SOME PEOPLE
           16   ARE BORN WITH BROWN EYES, BLUE EYES, AND EVEN SOME HAVE
           17   GREEN EYES.
           18               NOW, THESE ARE ALL DUE TO GENETIC TRAITS.
           19   BASICALLY, THEY ARE OBVIOUS TO US ALL AND WE CAN SEE THEM.
           20               BUT THERE ARE OTHER CASES IN SUBSTANCES SUCH AS
           21   BLOOD WHERE IT IS NOT OBVIOUS VISUALLY.
           22               BUT ONE THING WE ARE FAMILIAR WITH WOULD BE
           23   SOMETHING LIKE THE A.B.O. SYSTEM.  EVERY ONE OF US IS
           24   PRETTY MUCH FAMILIAR WITH BLOOD TYPE.
           25               IN THAT SYSTEM, THERE ARE FOUR TYPES:
           26               TYPE "A," TYPE "B," TYPE "O" AND TYPE "A.B."
           27               NOW, ANOTHER BLOOD TYPING SYSTEM WOULD BE
           28   H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA.  AND, LIKE THE A.B.O. SYSTEM, IT HAS

                                                                          426

            1   VARIOUS TYPES.
            2               IN THE PARTICULAR TESTS THAT I DO, H.L.A. D.Q.
            3   ALPHA HAS TWENTY-ONE DIFFERENT TYPES.
            4               THE DIFFERENCE THERE, AS FAR AS FORENSICS IS
            5   CONCERNED, HAVING TWENTY-ONE DIFFERENT TYPES ALLOWS FOR A
            6   BETTER DISCRIMINATION FACTOR AS FAR AS CATEGORIZING
            7   DIFFERENT PEOPLE'S BLOODS AND, IN THIS CASE, STAINS.
            8         Q.    WOULD YOU SAY, THEN, THE DISCRIMINATION OF
            9   P.C.R., H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA TESTING IS ABOUT FIVE TIMES MORE
           10   DISCRIMINATING THAN THE A.B.O. TYPING?
           11         A.    THE WAY THESE THINGS ARE FIGURED OUT, IT'S VERY
           12   HARD TO PUT THAT INTO TYPES.
           13         Q.    LET ME DO IT A DIFFERENT WAY.
           14               H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA TESTING RENDERS TWENTY-ONE
           15   TYPES; RIGHT?
           16         A.    YES.
           17         Q.    A.B.O. TESTING YIELDS ONLY FOUR?
           18         A.    THEY ARE BROKEN DOWN INTO FOUR TYPES; THAT'S
           19   CORRECT.
           20         Q.    SO A.B.O. TESTING ARE MUCH BROADER CATEGORIES,
           21   IS THAT CORRECT, MORE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO FIT WITHIN EACH
           22   CATEGORY?
           23               IS THAT RIGHT?
           24         A.    YOU COULD SAY THAT.
           25         Q.    IN THE P.C.R. H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA TESTING, YOU
           26   HAVE NARROWER CATAGORIES.
           27               IS THAT RIGHT?
           28         A.    BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE IN THIS INSTANCE, AND

                                                                          427

            1   ALSO THE PERCENTAGES TEND TO BREAK DOWN WHERE THEY ARE
            2   RELATIVELY EQUALLY PROPORTIONED.
            3               IN OTHER WORDS, SOMETIMES YOU MIGHT HAVE TWO
            4   TYPES AND ONE WOULD BE EXTREMELY RARE AND THE OTHER ONE
            5   WOULD BE COMMON.
            6               BUT, IN THE CASE OF H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA, AS WELL
            7   AS A.B.O., THE BRACKETS ARE RELATIVELY IN THE SAME
            8   BALLPARK.
            9         Q.    THEN MY QUESTION IS:
           10               YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE -- BECAUSE YOU HAVE
           11   TWENTY-ONE CATEGORIES INSTEAD OF ONLY FOUR, YOU ARE GOING
           12   TO HAVE FEWER PEOPLE IN EACH CATEGORY FOR THE D.Q. ALPHA
           13   THAN YOU WOULD FOR A.B.O. TYPING?
           14         A.    YES.
           15               THE BOTTOM LINE IS DISCRIMINATION IS BETTER
           16   WITH D.Q. ALPHA.
           17         Q.    NOW, YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE PROCEDURES FOR
           18   BLOOD ANALYSIS INCLUDING THAT OF P.C.R., D.Q. ALPHA, THAT
           19   IS -- THAT ARE ACCEPTED IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY AS
           20   RELIABLE?
           21         A.    YES.
           22         Q.    YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE ACCEPTABILITY OF P.C.R.
           23   D.Q. ALPHA TESTING IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY AS A
           24   RELIABLE METHOD IS WHAT?
           25         A.    OKAY.  WAIT.
           26               I'M SORRY.
           27         Q.    TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, SIR, IS P.C.R.
           28   D.Q. ALPHA TESTING AN ACCEPTED METHOD OF ANALYSIS, BLOOD

                                                                          428

            1   ANALYSIS IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY?
            2         A.    YES, IT IS.
            3         Q.    ACCEPTED AS A RELIABLE FORM OF TESTING?
            4         A.    YES, IT IS.
            5         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO YOUR ANALYSIS OF ITEM NO. 59,
            6   THE BLOOD OF NICOLE SIMPSON, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT TYPE WAS
            7   DERIVED IN YOUR P.C.R. D.Q. ALPHA TESTING OF THAT SAMPLE.
            8         A.    TYPE 1.1, 1.1.
            9         MS. CLARK:  MADAME FOREMAN, I HAVE HERE A BLANK
           10   CHART.  I'M JUST GOING TO ASK THAT THE WITNESS FILL IT IN.
           11               I'M GOING TO FIRST PUT DOWN ITEM NO. 59, NICOLE
           12   SIMPSON; ITEM NO. 60, RON GOLDMAN; AND ITEM NO. 17 --
           13         Q.    DO YOU HAVE AN ITEM NO. 17 ON YOUR REPORT, SIR?
           14         A.    NO, I DO NOT.
           15         Q.    WHAT DO YOU HAVE FOR -- DO YOU HAVE AN ITEM
           16   DESCRIBED AS "BLOOD TAKEN FROM SUSPECT ORENTHAL SIMPSON"?
           17         A.    PERP CAP VIAL WITH WHOLE BLOOD LABELED ON IT
           18   "O.J. SIMPSON."
           19         Q.    AND THAT ITEM WAS GIVEN TO YOU WHEN?
           20         A.    IT WAS GIVEN TO ME ON THE 14TH OF JUNE.
           21         Q.    THE 14TH OF JUNE.
           22               BY WHOM?
           23         A.    DENNIS FUNG.
           24         Q.    WHAT ITEM DID YOU GIVE IT?
           25         A.    ITEM NO. 18.
           26         Q.    IS THAT AN INCORRECT NUMBER?
           27         A.    YES, IT IS.
           28         Q.    WHAT ITEM NUMBER SHOULD IT BE?

                                                                          429

            1         A.    IT SHOULD BE ITEM NO. 17.
            2         Q.    SO I WILL PUT DOWN ITEM NO. 17, WHICH
            3   CORRESPONDS TO YOUR REPORT WHICH BEARS THE INCORRECT NUMBER
            4   OF 18, BUT THAT'S THE BLOOD OF ORENTHAL SIMPSON, THE
            5   SUSPECT; RIGHT?
            6         A.    YES.
            7         Q.    YOU SAID YOU DERIVED A P.C.R. D.Q. ALPHA TYPE
            8   FOR THE BLOOD OF NICOLE SIMPSON OF 1.1, 1.1?
            9         A.    YES.
           10         Q.    DID YOU CONDUCT THE SAME TEST ON ITEM NO. 60,
           11   RONALD GOLDMAN?
           12         A.    YES.
           13         Q.    WHAT RESULTS DID YOU OBTAIN?
           14         A.    1.3, 4.
           15         Q.    DID YOU TEST THE BLOOD OF ORENTHAL SIMPSON --
           16         A.    YES.
           17         Q.    -- USING THE SAME P.C.R. H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA
           18   TEST?
           19         A.    YES.
           20         Q.    WHAT RESULT DID YOU OBTAIN?
           21         A.    1.1, 1.2.
           22         Q.    SO ALL THREE OF THESE PEOPLE'S BLOOD, THAT
           23   IS, NICOLE SIMPSON, RON GOLDMAN AND ORENTHAL SIMPSON, ARE
           24   DIFFERENT.
           25               IS THAT CORRECT?
           26         A.    THEIR H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA TYPES ARE DIFFERENT.
           27         Q.    DID YOU TEST ITEM NO. 23, DESCRIBED AS BLOOD
           28   FROM THE INTERIOR DOOR OF THE FORD BRONCO?

                                                                          430

            1         A.    YES.
            2         Q.    AND FROM WHOM DID YOU RECEIVE THAT ITEM?
            3         A.    CRIMINALIST FUNG.
            4         Q.    ON WHAT DATE?
            5         A.    THAT WAS RECEIVED ON THE 15TH OF JUNE.
            6         Q.    AND WHAT KIND OF TEST DID YOU SUBJECT IT TO?
            7         A.    THE P.C.R. H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA.
            8         Q.    WHAT RESULT DID YOU OBTAIN?
            9         A.    1.1, 1.2.
           10         Q.    AND THAT RESULT, DID THAT RESULT INDICATE THAT
           11   THE BLOOD RECOVERED FROM THE INTERIOR DOOR OF THE FORD
           12   BRONCO WAS CONSISTENT WITH THE SUSPECT ORENTHAL SIMPSON --
           13         A.    YES.
           14         Q.    -- AND NOT CONSISTENT WITH EITHER VICTIM,
           15   NICOLE SIMPSON OR RON GOLDMAN?

           16         A.    YES.
           17         Q.    DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO ITEM NO. 12,
           18   DESCRIBING THE BLOOD AT THE FOYER FROM SUSPECT ORENTHAL
           19   SIMPSON'S RESIDENCE.
           20         A.    YES.
           21         Q.    WAS THAT -- WHO DID YOU RECEIVE THAT FROM?
           22         A.    CRIMINALIST FUNG.
           23         Q.    ON WHAT DATE?
           24         A.    THE 15TH OF JUNE.
           25         Q.    ALL OF THIS IS 1994; CORRECT?
           26         A.    YES, IT IS.
           27         Q.    AND DID YOU SUBJECT IT TO THE SAME P.C.R. D.Q.
           28   ALPHA TEST?

                                                                          431

            1         A.    YES.
            2         Q.    WHAT RESULT DID YOU OBTAIN?
            3         A.    ITEM NO. 12, 1.1, 1.2.
            4         Q.    AND, AGAIN, THAT RESULT ON THE BLOOD RECOVERED
            5   FROM THE FOYER OF THE SUSPECT'S RESIDENCE WAS CONSISTENT
            6   WITH THE BLOOD OF THE SUSPECT ORENTHAL SIMPSON?
            7         A.    YES.
            8         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO ITEM NO. 9, DESCRIBED AS BLOOD
            9   FROM A GLOVE FOUND AT THE SIGHT OF THE SUSPECT'S RESIDENCE,
           10   WHO GAVE YOU THAT ITEM TO ANALYZE?
           11         A.    CRIMINALIST FUNG.
           12         Q.    ON WHAT DATE?
           13         A.    THE 14TH OF JUNE, 1994.

           14         Q.    WHAT RESULT DID YOU OBTAIN FROM THE ANALYSIS OF
           15   THAT BLOOD?
           16         Q.    LET ME BACK UP.
           17               WHAT TEST DID YOU PERFORM ON THAT BLOOD?
           18         A.    P.C.R. D.Q. ALPHA.
           19         Q.    DID YOU OBTAIN A RESULT?
           20         A.    YES.
           21         Q.    WHAT RESULT?
           22         A.    1.1, 1.3, 4, AND A POTENTIAL 1.2.
           23         Q.    WHY DO YOU SAY, "POTENTIAL 1.2," IF YOU CAN
           24   EXPLAIN IT TO US.
           25               IT'S A COMPLICATION INHERENT IN THE TESTING
           26   PROCEDURE.
           27               ONE OF THE DOTS IS IDENTIFIED THROUGH KIND OF A
           28   CONTROL SYSTEM, AND IN THE CASE OF MIXTURES, WHICH THIS

                                                                          432

            1   DOES REPRESENT, IT HAS TO BE LABELED AS A POTENTIAL,
            2   BECAUSE I CANNOT CONFIRM THAT IT IS OR IS NOT ACTUALLY
            3   THERE.
            4         Q.    LET ME ASK YOU THIS AGAIN:
            5               THEN WHY -- IF YOU CANNOT CONFIRM IT, WHY SAY
            6   IT?
            7         A.    BECAUSE IN THIS SITUATION, TO MAKE IT SIMPLE,
            8   THE DOTS LIGHT UP FOR EACH OF THE VARIOUS TYPES, 1.1; THERE
            9   IS A 1.3 DOT ON THE SYSTEM; THERE IS NO 1.2 DOT.
           10               AND THE WAY THAT IT'S DETERMINED WHETHER OR NOT
           11   A 1.2 IS PRESENT IN A SAMPLE THAT HAS NO MIXTURES IS
           12   BECAUSE YOU HAVE HAD A DOT THAT LIGHTS UP WITH 1.2, 3 AND
           13   4 AND YOU HAVE ANOTHER DOT THAT HAS AN -- ALL BUT 1.3 --
           14   IT'S VERY COMPLICATED.
           15         Q.    LET ME ASK YOU THIS:
           16               YOU SAY THERE IS NO 1.2 ON THE CHART?
           17         A.    THERE IS NO 1.2 ON THE CHART.
           18         Q.    WHAT IS THERE ON THE CHART THAT WOULD EVER
           19   ALLOW YOU TO CONCLUDE THAT YOU HAVE A 1.2 TYPE?
           20         A.    IF I HAVE THIS DOT THAT LIGHTS UP WITH THREE OF
           21   THE TYPES, THEN I KNOW THAT THERE IS POTENTIALLY A 1.2.
           22               NOW, IF I HAVE ANOTHER DOT WHICH LIGHTS UP ONLY
           23   ALL THREE OF THE "1" TYPES -- BECAUSE, AS YOU CAN SEE,
           24   THERE ARE 1.1, A 1.2 AND A 1.3 -- THEN I KNOW THAT THERE
           25   HAS TO BE A 1.
           26               AND IF THE SPECIFIC 1.1 AND 1.3 DOTS DON'T
           27   LIGHT UP, THEN I KNOW BY ELIMINATION THAT THE 1.2 MUST BE
           28   PRESENT.

                                                                          433

            1               I'M SORRY.  IT'S VERY HARD TO EXPLAIN.  IT'S
            2   COMPLICATED.
            3         Q.    I THINK I GET IT.
            4               SO YOU DETERMINE THAT YOU HAVE A 1.2 BY
            5   ELIMINATION, BECAUSE THAT DOESN'T SHOW UP?
            6         A.    BECAUSE THERE IS NO SPECIFIC DOT FOR THE 1.2.
            7         Q.    AND WHEN YOU TESTED THE BLOOD OF ORENTHAL
            8   SIMPSON, HOW WERE YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE THAT YOU HAD A 1.1,
            9   1.2?
           10         A.    BECAUSE ON THAT STRIP, THE COMBINATION DOT FOR
           11   THE 1.2 LIT UP AS WELL AS THE 1.1 DOT AS WELL AS THE 1
           12   DOT.
           13               SO, THEREFORE, I WOULD CONCLUDE THAT THERE IS A
           14   1.1 AS WELL AS A 1.2 THERE.
           15         Q.    SOUNDS TO ME LIKE YOU JUST SAID THERE WASN'T
           16   A -- JUST SAID THERE WAS A 1.2 DOT, AND BEFORE YOU SAID
           17   THERE WASN'T.
           18         A.    IN THAT CASE, THERE WAS NO MIXTURE, BECAUSE
           19   ONLY TWO DOTS SHOWED UP.
           20               LET ME RETRACT THAT AND MAKE IT DOTS.
           21         Q.    LET'S SEE IF WE CAN MAKE IT SIMPLE:
           22               BY PROCESS OF ELIMINATION, THAT'S HOW YOU
           23   DETERMINE THAT YOU HAVE 1.2.
           24               IS THAT CORRECT?
           25         A.    YES.
           26         Q.    AND WHEN -- AND ON THAT GLOVE FOUND AT THE
           27   RESIDENCE OF ORENTHAL SIMPSON, YOU FOUND A MIXTURE OF
           28   BLOODS.

                                                                          434

            1               IS THAT CORRECT?
            2         A.    THERE WAS A MIXTURE OF DOTS INDICATING TO ME
            3   THAT THIS WAS A MIXED SAMPLE.
            4         Q.    INDICATING THAT IT WAS A BLOOD OF MORE THAN ONE
            5   PERSON FOUND ON THAT GLOVE?
            6         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
            7         Q.    ALL RIGHT.
            8               YOU FOUND A BLOOD TYPE CONSISTENT OF THAT WITH
            9   NICOLE SIMPSON?
           10         A.    THE DOTS THAT LIT UP ARE CONSISTENT WITH NICOLE
           11   SIMPSON'S TYPE.
           12               THAT COULD BE A PART OF THAT MIXTURE, A
           13   POTENTIAL PART, YES.
           14         Q.    AND THE BLOOD OF RON GOLDMAN?
           15         A.    ALSO COULD BE A POTENTIAL PART OF THE MIXTURE.
           16         Q.    WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS:
           17               YOU INDICATED THAT YOU GOT -- WHEN YOU TESTED
           18   THE BLOOD, YOU FOUND 1.1, 1.2 --
           19         A.    YES.
           20         Q.    -- OR POTENTIAL 1.2, 1.1?
           21         A.    YES.
           22         Q.    1.1 --
           23         A.    RIGHT.
           24         Q.    1.3, AND 4?
           25         A.    YES.
           26         Q.    AREN'T THOSE ALL THE TYPES THAT ARE KNOWN FOR
           27   NICOLE SIMPSON, RON GOLDMAN AND ORENTHAL SIMPSON?
           28         A.    YES.

                                                                          435

            1         Q.    SO YOU FOUND THE BLOOD TYPES OF ALL THREE OF
            2   THE PARTIES SHOWN ON THE CHART THAT I WOULD NOW MARK AS
            3   PEOPLE'S 33.
            4         THE SECRETARY:  34.
            5                (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 34.)
            6         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  SO THAT MEANS ALL THREE OF THOSE
            7   PEOPLE, NICOLE SIMPSON, RON GOLDMAN AND ORENTHAL SIMPSON
            8   ARE FOUND ON THE GLOVE THAT WAS RETRIEVED FROM THE
            9   SUSPECT'S RESIDENCE CALLED ITEM NO. 9?
           10         A.    IT COULD BE A POTENTIAL MIXTURE; THAT'S
           11   CORRECT.
           12         Q.    THE BLOOD MIXTURE THAT YOU FOUND ON THAT GLOVE,
           13   COULD THAT HAVE COME FROM JUST ONE PERSON?
           14         A.    NO, IT COULD NOT.
           15         Q.    COULD THAT HAVE COME FROM JUST TWO PEOPLE, JUST
           16   TWO PEOPLE?
           17         A.    WITH THIS TEST, I COULD SAY IT IS A MIXTURE,
           18   BUT I COULDN'T SAY WHETHER IT CAME FROM A MIXTURE OF ONE --
           19   I MEAN OF TWO OR MORE.
           20               I CAN'T MAKE THAT DETERMINATION.
           21         Q.    BUT IT DEFINITELY CAME FROM TWO OR MORE PEOPLE?
           22         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           23         Q.    AND THE BLOOD TYPES THAT YOU FOUND REVEALED THE
           24   PRESENCE OF ALL THREE OF THE PEOPLE SHOWN ON THE CHART THAT
           25   IS MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 33?
           26         A.    YES.
           27               LIKE I SAID, IT COULD BE A POTENTIAL MIXTURE.
           28         Q.    WELL, IT IS A MIXTURE; IT'S NOT A POTENTIAL

                                                                          436

            1   MIXTURE, ISN'T IT?
            2               IT IS A MIXTURE OF BLOODS; RIGHT?
            3         A.    RIGHT.
            4               BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND WHEN YOU ARE
            5   DEALING WITH COMBINATIONS, POSSIBLE COMBINATIONS, THESE
            6   PEOPLE COULD ALSO -- IF WE TOOK ALL THOSE PARTICULAR SPOTS
            7   THAT WOULD ACCOUNT FOR LIKE A 1.1, A 1.3, 1.2, SO ON AND SO
            8   FORTH, DIFFERENT COMBINATIONS COULD ARISE THAT COULD ALSO
            9   PUT THOSE DOTS THERE, SUCH AS A 1.1, 4, A 1.3, A 1.2.
           10         Q.    I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, SIR.
           11               ALL I'M SAYING, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT THE BLOOD
           12   THAT YOU FOUND ON THE GLOVE MARKED AS ITEM NO. 9, THE
           13   MIXTURE YOU FOUND IS CONSISTENT WITH WHAT YOU WOULD FIND IN
           14   THE MIXTURE OF THE BLOOD SHOWN ON NICOLE SIMPSON, RON
           15   GOLDMAN AND ORENTHAL SIMPSON?
           16         THE SECRETARY:  EXCUSE ME, MISS CLARK.
           17               THAT NEEDS TO BE EXHIBIT 34.
           18         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  NOW, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION
           19   TO ITEMS NO. 47, 48, 49, 50, 51 AND 52.  THEY ARE DESCRIBED
           20   AS THE BLOOD TAKEN FROM THE BLOOD TRAIL ALONG THE ESCAPE
           21   ROUTE AT THE CRIME SCENE, 875 SOUTH BUNDY.
           22               DID YOU RECEIVE THOSE ITEM NUMBERS FROM DENNIS
           23   FUNG, ALSO?
           24         A.    YES.
           25         Q.    ON WHAT DATE?
           26         A.    ON THE 14TH OF JUNE 1994.
           27         Q.    DID YOU ATTEMPT TO TEST THOSE ITEMS FOR --
           28   WITH THE TEST KNOWN AS P.C.R. H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA?

                                                                          437

            1         A.    YES.
            2         Q.    WERE ALL OF THOSE STAINS SUFFICIENT IN QUANTITY
            3   OR QUALITY TO YIELD A RESULT OF THAT TESTING?
            4         A.    CONCLUSIVE RESULTS WERE OBTAINED ON THREE OF
            5   THE SAMPLES.
            6         Q.    CAN YOU TELL US WHICH ONES.
            7         A.    YES.
            8               ITEM NO. 48, THE TYPE DETECTED WAS 1.1, 1.2.
            9               ITEM NO. 50, 1.1, 1.2.
           10               ITEM NO. 52, 1.1, 1.2.
           11         Q.    AND, AGAIN, THAT IS THE TYPE CONSISTENT WITH
           12   THE BLOOD OF ORENTHAL SIMPSON?
           13         A.    YES.
           14         Q.    NOW, THEN, THERE WERE THREE ITEMS THAT YOU DID
           15   NOT OBTAIN A RESULT FROM?
           16         A.    EXCUSE ME.
           17               OUT OF THAT GROUP, THERE WERE TWO ITEMS THAT
           18   DID NOT YIELD CONCLUSIVE RESULTS.
           19         Q.    ONLY TWO?
           20               I READ TO YOU ITEMS 47, 48, 49, 50, 51 AND 52.
           21         A.    I'M SORRY.
           22               51 WAS NOT ANALYZED.
           23         Q.    WHY NOT?
           24         A.    I BELIEVE DENNIS FUNG, BEING THE CRIMINALIST AT
           25   THE SCENE, PICKED A SPECIFIC SELECTION THAT SHOULD
           26   REPRESENT WHAT HE FELT WAS A BLOOD TRAIL.
           27               AND IN ORDER TO CONSERVE ON VARIOUS SAMPLES
           28   THAT ARE TAKEN INTO EVIDENCE, WE DO NOT ALWAYS ANALYZE

                                                                          438

            1   EVERYTHING AT THE SAME TIME.
            2               IN THIS INSTANCE, HE CHOSE TO OMIT THAT
            3   ITEM NUMBER AND SUGGESTED THAT I ANALYZE THE ITEMS THAT I
            4   DID.
            5         Q.    SO ITEM NO. 51 IS HELD IN ORDER TO PRESERVE IT.
            6               IS THAT CORRECT?
            7         A.    FOR FUTURE AND FURTHER TESTING.
            8         Q.    AND SO THE BALANCE OF THE ITEMS THAT WERE
            9   SUBMITTED TO YOU WERE SUBMITTED AS REPRESENTATIVE SAMPLES
           10   OF THAT BLOOD TRAIL?
           11         A.    YES.
           12         Q.    AND OF THOSE REMAINING FIVE ITEMS, TWO GAVE YOU
           13   NO CONCLUSIVE RESULT?
           14         A.    YES.
           15         Q.    AND THAT WAS ITEM NO. 47 AND ITEM NO. 49?
           16         A.    YES.
           17         Q.    CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU MEAN BY "NO CONCLUSIVE
           18   RESULT"?
           19         A.    AT THIS STAGE, THE TEST WAS JUST RECENTLY
           20   PERFORMED.
           21               SOMETIMES I CAN GO BACK AND TRY TO REEXAMINE
           22   THE ITEM AND SEE IF A TYPING RESULT CAN BE OBTAINED.  I
           23   HAVE NOT YET HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO SO.
           24               IN THIS INSTANCE, ITEM NO. 49 SIMPLY DID
           25   NOT TYPE.  I DID NOT SEE ANYTHING COME UP ON ANY OF MY
           26   STRIPS.
           27               ITEM NO. 47 YIELDED SOMETHING, BUT IT WASN'T
           28   ACROSS THAT WE CALL A CONTROLLED LINE.

                                                                          439

            1               WE HAVE A DOT THAT REPRESENTS A CONTROL, AND
            2   THAT HAS TO TURN UP IN ORDER FOR US TO CALL THAT PARTICULAR
            3   STRIP.
            4               IT'S A CONTROL FOR THAT PARTICULAR TEST.
            5         Q.    BEFORE YOU CAN SAY THAT YOU HAVE A RESULT OR
            6   DRAW A CONCLUSION FROM THE ANALYSIS OF A BLOOD, YOU HAVE TO
            7   BE ABLE TO SHOW ENOUGH OF A RESULT ON IT THAT YOU FEEL
            8   CONFIDENT IN WHAT IT IS SHOWING YOU.
            9               IS THAT CORRECT?
           10         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           11         Q.    IN THE CASE OF ITEM NO. 47, THE RESULT OR THE
           12   REACTION WHEN YOU PERFORMED THE TEST WAS NOT STRONG ENOUGH
           13   TO GIVE YOU THE BASIS FOR A CONCLUSION THAT YOU COULD
           14   TESTIFY TO?
           15         A.    YES.
           16         Q.    CAN YOU TELL US -- AND WITH ITEM NO. 49, THERE
           17   WAS NO REACTION AT ALL TO THE TESTING.
           18               IS THAT CORRECT?
           19         A.    YES.
           20         Q.    CAN YOU TELL US WHY THAT OCCURRED WITH RESPECT
           21   TO ITEMS NO. 47 AND 49, WHY YOUR TESTING BROUGHT NO
           22   CONCLUSIVE RESULT?
           23         A.    BECAUSE AT THIS POINT THE POSSIBILITIES ARE
           24   ENDLESS, AND RETESTING AND SUBSEQUENT CHECKING INTO VARIOUS
           25   QUANTITIES IS AN ISSUE.
           26               I REALLY COULDN'T SAY, GIVE YOU A DEFINITE
           27   ANSWER.
           28               I CAN GIVE YOU POTENTIAL REASONS WHY --

                                                                          440

            1         Q.    PLEASE.
            2         A.    -- WHY THESE BLOOD STAINS SOMETIMES DO NOT GIVE
            3   RESULTS.
            4               THE MOST COMMON IS INSUFFICIENT QUANTITIES OF
            5   D.N.A. THAT IS OF THE INTEGRITY THAT WE ARE ABLE TO TEST.
            6         Q.    IN OTHER WORDS, INSUFFICIENT QUANTITY OF
            7   INTACT D.N.A.; RIGHT?
            8         A.    WELL, INTACT TO THE EXTENT THAT IT'S TESTABLE.
            9               BECAUSE I HAVE TO TELL YOU, THE D.N.A., AS SOON
           10   AS IT DRIES UP, IT'S GOING TO BREAK DOWN TO A CERTAIN
           11   EXTENT.
           12               BUT AS LONG AS MOST OF IT IS OF A REASONABLE
           13   QUALITY, THEN IT CAN BE TESTED.
           14         Q.    BUT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THE SAMPLE ITSELF
           15   MAY JUST NOT BE SUFFICIENT TO ALLOW FOR ANY RESULT WHEN
           16   TESTED?
           17         A.    YES.
           18         Q.    AND IS THAT A PRETTY COMMON PROBLEM WHEN YOU
           19   TALK ABOUT RECOVERING BLOOD STAINS FROM CRIME SCENES THAT
           20   ARE PARTICULARLY OUTDOORS, SUBJECT TO THE ELEMENTS?
           21         A.    YES.
           22               NOT ALL BLOOD STAINS ARE TYPEABLE.
           23         Q.    WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
           24         A.    FOR THE EXACT SAME REASON THAT I JUST GAVE, WE
           25   DON'T ALWAYS OBTAIN RESULTS ON BLOOD STAINS.
           26         Q.    BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH IN QUALITY?
           27         A.    BASICALLY, YES.
           28         Q.    NOW, ALL OF THE BLOOD WORK THAT YOU HAVE JUST

                                                                          441

            1   TESTIFIED TO, SIR, WAS DONE UNDER THE D.R. NUMBER THAT YOU
            2   PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED?
            3         A.    YES.
            4         Q.    AND THEN JUST TO RECAP, THE BLOOD FROM THE
            5   INTERIOR OF THE FORD BRONCO TESTED OUT TO BE CONSISTENT
            6   WITH THE BLOOD TYPE OF THE SUSPECT, ORENTHAL SIMPSON, AND
            7   INCONSISTENT WITH THAT OF THE VICTIMS; CORRECT?
            8         A.    YES.
            9         Q.    THE BLOOD TAKEN FROM THE FOYER OF THE SUSPECT'S
           10   RESIDENCE WAS ALSO TESTED.  THE RESULT WAS CONSISTENT WITH
           11   THE BLOOD OF THE SUSPECT.
           12               IS THAT CORRECT?
           13         A.    YES.
           14         Q.    THE BLOOD TAKEN FROM THE BLOOD TRAIL ALONG THE
           15   ESCAPE ROUTE AT THE CRIME SCENE OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY ALSO, TO
           16   THE EXTENT YOU GOT A CONCLUSIVE RESULT, TESTED CONSISTENT
           17   WITH THE BLOOD OF ORENTHAL SIMPSON.
           18               IS THAT CORRECT.
           19         A.    YES.
           20         Q.    THE BLOOD THAT YOU FOUND ON THE GLOVE AND
           21   TESTED THAT WAS RECOVERED FROM THE SIDE OF THE SUSPECT'S
           22   RESIDENCE CONTAINED A MIX THAT WAS CONSISTENT WITH THE
           23   BLOOD TYPES OF NICOLE SIMPSON, RON GOLDMAN AND ORENTHAL
           24   SIMPSON.
           25               IS THAT CORRECT?
           26         A.    YES, POSSIBLE MIXTURE.
           27         THE FOREPERSON:  IF THE GRAND JURORS WOULD ALLOW, THE
           28   DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS HAVE REQUESTED CONTINUING WITH

                                                                          442

            1   THIS WITNESS, AND THIS WILL THEN CONCLUDE OUR ACTIVITY FOR
            2   THE DAY.
            3               IF THERE IS NO OBJECTION, WE WILL PROCEED.
            4         MS. CLARK:  THANK YOU.
            5               I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
            6         THE FOREPERSON:  IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
            7   HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
            8               THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
            9   SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
           10
           11                         (SHORT PAUSE.)
           12
           13         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  HAVE YOU TESTED ANY OF THESE
           14   BLOOD SAMPLES FOR A.B.O. BLOOD TYPING?
           15         A.    NO.
           16         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO THE BLOOD SAMPLES RECOVERED
           17   FROM THE FORD BRONCO, THE CRIME SCENE AND THE SUSPECT'S
           18   RESIDENCE AND THE GLOVE, WERE THE SAMPLES SUFFICIENT TO
           19   CONDUCT A.B.O. TYPING?
           20         A.    YES.
           21         Q.    HAS THAT BEEN DONE AT THIS TIME?
           22         A.    NOT YET.
           23         Q.    WHY NOT?
           24         A.    GENERALLY SPEAKING, THIS TEST HAS HIGHER
           25   DISCRIMINATION THAN A P.C.R. D.Q. ALPHA TEST; AND, UNDER
           26   THE CIRCUMSTANCES, THE RUSH, EXPEDIENCY AND ALL, THEY
           27   WANTED TO PICK THE MOST DISCRIMINATING TEST THAT COULD BE
           28   DONE IN A TIMELY MANNER.

                                                                          443

            1               AND THAT'S WHY THE P.C.R. D.Q. ALPHA WAS
            2   CHOSEN.
            3         Q.    IN OTHER WORDS, BECAUSE P.C.R. GIVES YOU -- I'M
            4   TRYING TO KIND OF REFINE THE WORD "DISCRIMINATING."
            5               WHEN YOU DID A.B.O. TYPING, FOR EXAMPLE, TYPE
            6   "A" CAN HAVE SOMETHING LIKE 30 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION;
            7   RIGHT?
            8               30 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION HAS TYPE "A"?
            9         A.    APPROXIMATELY, YES.
           10         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO THESE P.C.R., D.Q. ALPHA TYPES,
           11   THESE TYPES HAVE SMALLER NUMBERS AS TO EACH TYPE, IS THAT
           12   CORRECT, OF THE POPULATION?
           13         A.    YES, IN THE APPROXIMATELY GENERAL POPULATION
           14   FREQUENCIES, THEY ARE ALL BELOW 20 PERCENT.
           15         Q.    SO SINCE THE P.C.R. D.Q. ALPHA TYPE GIVES YOU
           16   TYPES FOR WHICH THE POPULATION POSSIBILITIES ARE ALL BELOW
           17   20 PERCENT, IT'S GOING TO GIVE YOU SMALLER NUMBER OF THE
           18   POPULATION THAT COULD POSSIBLY HAVE DONATED ANY BLOOD THAN
           19   AN A.B.O. TEST WOULD?
           20         A.    YES.
           21         Q.    NOW, DOES EVERYONE HAVE ONE OF THESE P.C.R.
           22   D.Q. ALPHA TYPES?
           23         A.    YES.
           24         Q.    AND, FOR EXAMPLE, WITH RESPECT TO THE TYPE 1.3,
           25   4, RON GOLDMAN, ARE THERE STATISTICAL TABLES THAT TELL YOU
           26   WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION HAS THAT TYPE?
           27         A.    YES.
           28         Q.    AND WHAT STATISTICAL TABLE ARE YOU USING?

                                                                          444

            1         A.    WE HAVE -- AT L.A.P.D., WHAT WE UTILIZE IS A
            2   TABLE THAT IS BASED UPON THE CENSUS FOR THE L.A. COUNTY
            3   AREA, KEEPING IN MIND THE BREAKDOWN OF THE ETHNIC
            4   BACKGROUND.
            5               AND THAT IS INCORPORATED WITH STUDIES THAT
            6   HAVE BEEN DONE BY THE F.B.I. AND ROCHE MOLECULAR SYSTEMS,
            7   WHICH HAVE ETHNIC BREAKDOWNS FOR EACH OF THE VARIOUS H.L.A.
            8   D.Q. ALPHA TYPES.
            9               THIS PUT TOGETHER GIVES US A GENERAL NUMBER.
           10         Q.    IS THAT TABLE THAT YOU USE, THAT STATISTICAL
           11   TABLE OF POPULATION FREQUENCIES, IS THAT ACCEPTED AS A
           12   RELIABLE TABLE IN A SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY FOR THE
           13   MEASUREMENT OF POPULATION FREQUENCIES IN P.C.R. D.Q. ALPHA
           14   TYPES IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY?
           15         A.    YES.  IT'S BASED UPON RELIABLE TABLES.
           16               KEEP IN MIND, THESE ARE APPROXIMATE VALUES
           17   ALSO.
           18         Q.    SO, FOR EXAMPLE, RON GOLDMAN HAS BEEN TYPED AS
           19   HAVING THE D.Q. ALPHA TYPE OF 1.3, 4.
           20               WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION HAS THAT
           21   TYPE?
           22         A.    I'M GOING TO HAVE TO REFER TO MY NOTES.
           23               1.3, 4, APPROXIMATELY 5 PERCENT.
           24         Q.    5 PERCENT?
           25         A.    YES.
           26         Q.    THANK YOU.
           27               WITH RESPECT TO THE TYPE OF ORENTHAL SIMPSON,
           28   1.1, 1.2, WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION SHARES THAT

                                                                          445

            1   BLOOD TYPE?
            2         A.    APPROXIMATELY ONE IN FIFTEEN PEOPLE WOULD HAVE
            3   THAT TYPE.
            4         Q.    WHAT PERCENTAGE?
            5         A.    PERCENTAGEWISE, ABOUT 7 PERCENT.
            6         Q.    7 PERCENT?
            7         A.    YEAH.
            8         Q.    AND NICOLE SIMPSON, WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE
            9   POPULATION HAS 1.1, 1.1?
           10         A.    PROBABLY 3 PERCENT.
           11         Q.    3 PERCENT?
           12         A.    YES.
           13         Q.    HAVE YOU CONDUCTED TESTING ON THE BLOOD OF THE
           14   GLOVE RECOVERED FROM THE CRIME SCENE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY
           15   YET?
           16         A.    NO.
           17         Q.    IS THAT IN PROGRESS?
           18         A.    THAT -- THERE IS A REQUEST THAT HAS BEEN
           19   FORMALLY MADE FOR THAT, BUT AS YET WORK HAS NOT BEEN DONE
           20   ON THAT.
           21         Q.    HAVE YOU TESTED ANY BLOOD SAMPLES TAKEN FROM
           22   THE DRAINS INSIDE THE SUSPECT'S HOUSE?
           23         A.    NO.
           24         Q.    HOW RELIABLE IS THE P.C.R. D.Q. ALPHA TEST ON
           25   BLOOD WHEN YOU HAVE SPECIMENS THAT ARE OF SUFFICIENT
           26   QUALITY FOR THAT TESTING?
           27         A.    HOW RELIABLE IS IT?
           28         Q.    YES.

                                                                          446

            1         A.    IF WE GET A RESULT, WE GET A RESULT.
            2         Q.    IN OTHER WORDS, IF THE SPECIMEN IS GOOD ENOUGH
            3   FOR P.C.R. TESTING AND YOU WOULD OBTAIN A RESULT, THE
            4   RESULT IS RELIABLE?
            5         A.    RIGHT.
            6         Q.    SO LIKE IN A.B.O. TESTING, THE P.C.R. D.Q.
            7   ALPHA TESTING WILL NOT TELL YOU THAT A PARTICULAR PERSON,
            8   TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHERS ON THE PLANET, LEFT A
            9   PARTICULAR BLOOD SAMPLE AT A CRIME SCENE.
           10               IS THAT CORRECT?
           11         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           12         Q.    WHAT IT DOES IS TELL YOU THAT THE PERSON WHO
           13   LEFT THE BLOOD AT THE CRIME SCENE, FOR EXAMPLE, COULD ONLY
           14   HAVE COME FROM A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION THAT
           15   SHARES THAT BLOOD TYPE.
           16               IS THAT RIGHT?
           17         A.    YEAH, IT COULD PUT THEM INTO A GROUP OF
           18   POSSIBLE DONORS.
           19         Q.    AND UNLIKE -- A.B.O. TESTING WILL DO THAT ALSO;
           20   CORRECT?
           21         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           22         Q.    IT PUTS THESE INTO A GROUP OF POSSIBLE DONORS?
           23         A.    YES.
           24         Q.    IN THE CASE OF A.B.O. TESTING, IF YOU FIND
           25   BLOOD AT A CRIME SCENE THAT'S TYPED OUT AS TYPE "A" AND
           26   YOUR SUSPECT HAS TYPE "A" BLOOD, YOU WOULD SAY THAT THAT
           27   SUSPECT OR ANYONE ELSE WITH TYPE "A" BLOOD COULD HAVE LEFT
           28   THAT BLOOD AT THE CRIME SCENE.

                                                                          447

            1               IS THAT RIGHT?
            2         A.    YES.
            3         Q.    AND WITH TYPE "A" BLOOD, YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT,
            4   WHAT, 30 SOME-ODD PERCENT OF THE POPULATION?
            5         A.    APPROXIMATELY.
            6         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO P.C.R. D.Q. ALPHA TESTING, FOR
            7   EXAMPLE, ORENTHAL SIMPSON HAS THE TYPE 1.1, 1.2 THAT'S
            8   INCLUDED WITHIN 7 PERCENT OF THE POPULATION.
            9               IS THAT RIGHT?
           10         A.    APPROXIMATELY, YES.
           11         Q.    AND YOU FIND 1.1, 1.2 BLOOD AT THE CRIME SCENE,
           12   THAT WOULD INDICATE THAT ORENTHAL SIMPSON IS ONE OF THE 7
           13   PERCENT OF THE POPULATION THAT COULD HAVE LEFT THAT BLOOD
           14   AT THE CRIME SCENE?
           15         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           16         Q.    DID YOU RECEIVE THE BLOOD FOR TESTING ON
           17   MONDAY, THE 13TH OR TUESDAY, THE 14TH?
           18               AND I TAKE IT THIS QUESTION GOES TO THE BLOOD
           19   OF THE SUSPECT MR. ORENTHAL SIMPSON.
           20         A.    THE 14TH.
           21         Q.    WHERE YOU GIVEN A CAP OF ANY SORT TO TEST FOR
           22   BLOOD?
           23         A.    NO.
           24         Q.    WAS A BLUE KNIT CAP SUBMITTED TO YOU FOR
           25   TESTING FOR BLOOD YET?
           26         A.    OH, NO.  NO CAP.
           27         Q.    DO YOU EXPECT YOU WILL RECEIVE OTHER ITEMS OF
           28   EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE FOR FURTHER -- FOR BLOOD TESTING AT

                                                                          448

            1   SOME POINT?
            2         A.    YES.
            3         Q.    NOW, DO YOU EXAMINE -- DO YOU PERFORM HAIR
            4   ANALYSIS -- SORRY.  LET ME FURTHER REFINE THAT.
            5               IF HAIRS ARE FOUND AT A CRIME SCENE IN SOME
            6   AREA, THEY CAN BE ANALYZED TO SEE IF THEY ARE CONSISTENT
            7   WITH THE HAIR OF A SUSPECT OR A VICTIM OR A WITNESS;
            8   CORRECT?
            9         A.    THERE ARE TWO WAYS THAT CAN BE DONE.
           10               NOW, P.C.R., D.Q. ALPHA HAS THE ABILITY TO
           11   ANALYZE HAIRS IF THEY HAVE THE ROOT SECTION AVAILABLE.
           12   THERE IS POTENTIAL FOR THAT.
           13               OTHERWISE, THERE IS A COMPARATIVE MICROSCOPIC
           14   LINE THAT CAN DO THIS SORT OF THING.  THAT WOULD BE A TRACE
           15   ANALYSIS.
           16         Q.    IF IT'S MICROSCOPIC AND NOT A P.C.R. ANALYSIS
           17   OF HAIR, FOR EXAMPLE, TAKEN FROM A CAP, WOULD THAT BE
           18   SOMETHING YOU WOULD DO?
           19         A.    NO.
           20         Q.    IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A CHEMIST AND A
           21   CRIMINALIST?
           22         A.    A CHEMIST MIGHT BE -- A CHEMIST APPLYING
           23   CHEMISTRY IS A PART OF CRIMINALISTICS.
           24         Q.    SO A CRIMINALIST IS A BROAD CATEGORY; A CHEMIST
           25   IS A SUBSPECIALTY WITHIN THAT CATEGORY?
           26         A.    YES.
           27         Q.    WAS ANY OF THE BLOOD RECOVERED FROM BETWEEN THE
           28   TWO VICTIMS?

                                                                          449

            1               AND YOU CAN REFER TO THIS REPORT TO SEE IF SUCH
            2   AN ITEM WAS EVEN RECOVERED, TESTED BY YOU.
            3         A.    NO.
            4         Q.    YOU DIDN'T LOOK AT YOUR NOTES.
            5               DO YOU KNOW THAT?
            6         A.    I KNOW THAT.
            7         Q.    DO YOU PLAN TO DO THAT IN THE FUTURE?
            8         A.    I'M NOT AWARE OF EVERY -- I HAVEN'T GONE OVER
            9   THE PROPERTY REPORT, SO I DON'T KNOW OF ANY BLOOD STAINS
           10   BETWEEN THE TWO VICTIMS.
           11               IF THAT IS REQUESTED OF ME, I WILL ANALYZE IT,
           12   BUT -- EXCUSE ME.  I'M NOT THE ONE THAT MAKES THAT
           13   DECISION.
           14         Q.    YOU DO NOT DETERMINE WHAT YOU ANALYZE?
           15         A.    THE PROCESS IS REQUESTED, THEN I DO THE
           16   ANALYSIS.
           17         Q.    SO DID YOU RECEIVE A LIST OF REQUESTS FOR
           18   ANALYSIS IN THIS CASE?
           19         A.    SOME VERBAL AND -- IN SOME CASES, YES, I DO
           20   HAVE INPUT IF THEY ASK MY ADVICE.
           21               BUT, FOR THE MOST PART, THE INVESTIGATION IS
           22   LED BY THE INVESTIGATING OFFICERS, AND THROUGH THEM
           23   REQUESTS ARE MADE FOR OUR ANALYSIS.
           24         Q.    HAVE YOU COMPLETED ALL OF THE REQUESTS FOR
           25   ANALYSIS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE IN THIS CASE?
           26         A.    NO.
           27         Q.    HAVE YOU COMPLETED THE TESTING OF THE BLOOD
           28   STAINS RECOVERED FROM THE INTERIOR OF THE FORD BRONCO?

                                                                          450

            1         A.    I WORKED ON A FEW STAINS FROM THE INTERIOR OF
            2   THE BRONCO.
            3         Q.    HAVE YOU COMPLETED YOUR ANALYSIS OF ALL OF THE
            4   BLOOD STAINS RECOVERED FROM THE INTERIOR OF THE FORD
            5   BRONCO?
            6         A.    NO.
            7         Q.    AT THIS POINT IN TIME, HAVE YOU ANALYZED ANY
            8   BLOOD STAINS FROM THE FORD BRONCO THAT REVEALED THE
            9   PRESENCE OF THE BLOOD OF THE VICTIMS NICOLE SIMPSON AND
           10   RONALD GOLDMAN?
           11         A.    NO.
           12         Q.    BUT YOU HAVE NOT COMPLETED YOUR WORK ON THE
           13   BLOOD FROM THE INTERIOR OF THAT FORD BRONCO YET?
           14         A.    NOT YET.
           15         THE FOREPERSON:  IF THERE ARE ANY ADDITIONAL
           16   QUESTIONS TO BE SUBMITTED, IF THE GRAND JURORS WOULD PLEASE
           17   PREPARE THEM AT THIS TIME.
           18         MS. CLARK:  I HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION.
           19         Q.    I BELIEVE YOU INDICATED WITH RESPECT TO THE
           20   GLOVE THAT YOU HAVE TESTIFIED TO THAT WAS RECOVERED FROM
           21   THE RESIDENCE OF MR. SIMPSON, THAT YOU DETECTED 1.1, 1.3,
           22   AND 4.
           23               IS THAT CORRECT?
           24         A.    YES, AND A POTENTIAL 1.2.
           25         Q.    YOU ALSO HAD A POTENTIAL 1.2 THERE?
           26         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           27         Q.    IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THERE IS NO 1.2 ON THAT
           28   GLOVE?

                                                                          451

            1         A.    THAT IS A POSSIBILITY.
            2         Q.    WHAT IS THE GREATER LIKELIHOOD?
            3         A.    I CAN'T SPECULATE ON THAT.
            4         Q.    THE POSSIBILITY EXISTS THAT THERE IS NO 1.2.
            5               IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?
            6         A.    THAT'S A POSSIBILITY.
            7         Q.    BUT BASED ON WHAT YOU SAW AND THE RESULTS OF
            8   YOUR TESTING, YOU FIND THAT THERE IS AN INDICATION OF A
            9   1.2?
           10         A.    IT COULD BE THERE; THEN AGAIN, IT MAY NOT.
           11               THERE IS POTENTIAL FOR IT TO BE THERE.
           12         Q.    ALL RIGHT.
           13               THEN ARE YOU INDICATING THAT A 1.2 WAS NOT
           14   DETECTED?
           15         A.    NO.
           16         Q.    WHAT ARE YOU INDICATING?
           17         A.    I'M GOING TO HAVE TO RESTATE THAT.
           18               THERE IS A POTENTIAL OF 1.2 PRESENT THERE
           19   BECAUSE IT'S NOT POSSIBLE WITH THIS PARTICULAR TEST TO SAY
           20   FOR SURE WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A 1.2 THERE.
           21         Q.    SO IT DOESN'T MEAN IT IS NOT THERE; YOU ARE
           22   JUST SAYING YOU CAN'T SAY FOR SURE AT THIS TIME, BASED ON
           23   THE NATURE OF THE TESTS, THE LIMITATIONS OF D.Q. ALPHA?
           24         A.    THAT'S CORRECT.
           25         THE FOREPERSON:  FINAL QUESTIONS NEED TO BE SUBMITTED
           26   AT THIS TIME IF THERE ARE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS.
           27         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  DO REPEATED TESTS FOR -- USING
           28   P.C.R. D.Q. ALPHA ON THE SAME BLOOD SAMPLE GIVE THE SAME

                                                                          452

            1   RESULT?
            2         A.    I'M SORRY?
            3               ONE MORE TIME, PLEASE.
            4         Q.    SURE.
            5               DO REPEATED TESTS USING THE P.C.R. D.Q. ALPHA
            6   METHOD ON THE SAME BLOOD SAMPLE GIVE THE SAME RESULT?
            7         A.    IT'S A HIGH PRECISION IN P.C.R. D.Q. ALPHA.
            8         Q.    IN OTHER WORDS --
            9         A.    YES.
           10         Q.    THANK YOU.
           11               UNDER ANY CONDITIONS, IS IT POSSIBLE THAT
           12   BLOOD -- OKAY.
           13               ARE THERE ANY CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH -- WELL,
           14   ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.
           15               LET ME THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT.
           16               IF THE BLOOD OF NICOLE SIMPSON'S TESTED OUT
           17   TODAY AT 1.1, 1.1, WILL IT ALWAYS TEST THAT WAY, SAME
           18   RESULT?
           19         A.    YES.
           20         Q.    THAT'S FOR EXAMPLE -- FOR AN EXAMPLE.
           21               WHATEVER TYPE SOMEONE HAS, YOU TEST IT TODAY,
           22   FOR EXAMPLE, RON GOLDMAN EVEN, 1.3, 4, YOU TEST IT AGAIN
           23   NEXT YEAR, IT'S STILL GOING TO BE 1.3, 4?
           24         A.    THERE IS A GENEALOGY IF YOU ARE BORN WITH BLUE
           25   EYES, THAT'S THE WAY YOU DIE.
           26         Q.    THANK YOU, SIR.
           27               HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO DO THIS TEST, P.C.R.
           28   D.Q. ALPHA?

                                                                          453

            1         A.    FOR BLOOD STAINS, THEY CAN BE COMPLETED, FROM
            2   BEGINNING TO END, WITH A RESULT IN ONE DAY.
            3               BUT WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A REGULAR WORKDAY.
            4         Q.    ALL RIGHT.
            5               THE TYPES THAT YOU HAVE SHOWN HERE ON THE CHART
            6   MARKED PEOPLE'S 34, 1.1, 1.1 FOR NICOLE AND 1.3, 4 FOR RON
            7   GOLDMAN, THE -- WHAT IS D.Q. ALPHA?
            8         A.    H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA, WELL, THAT STANDS FOR HUMAN
            9   LEUKOCYTE ANTIGEN.
           10               AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS, IN THE BLOOD, EVERYBODY
           11   KNOWS THERE IS SOMETHING RED IN THERE.  THOSE ARE THE RED
           12   BLOOD CELLS.
           13               WELL, THERE ARE WHITE BLOOD CELLS, ALSO.  HUMAN
           14   LEUKOCYTE ANTIGEN IS SOMETHING THAT'S A PART OF THE WHITE
           15   BLOOD CELLS.
           16               NOW, THERE ARE ACTUAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE
           17   H.L.A., THESE HUMAN LEUKOCYTE ANTIGENS.
           18               ON THESE WHITE BLOOD CELLS, LIKE EVERYBODY HAS
           19   DIFFERENT COLOR EYES.
           20               AGAIN, I WILL USE THAT ANALOGY.
           21               THE D.Q. ALPHA REGION THAT GENETICALLY ENCODES
           22   FOR THIS PARTICULAR ANTIGEN IS WHAT WE ARE LOOKING FOR,
           23   SPECIFICALLY.
           24         Q.    SO THEN WHEN YOU TEST FOR THAT MATERIAL KNOWN
           25   AS H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA, THAT MATERIAL IS MEASURED IN
           26   NUMERICAL RESULTS SUCH AS THE TYPES YOU HAVE SHOWN US HERE?
           27         A.    THEY ARE ARBITARILY CALLED THAT.
           28         Q.    SO THEY JUST ARBITARILY ASSIGNED NUMBERS TO

                                                                          454

            1   IDENTIFY DIFFERENT TYPES.
            2               IS THAT RIGHT?
            3         A.    RIGHT.
            4         Q.    WHY DO YOU HAVE TWO NUMBERS FOR A TYPE?  WHY
            5   NOT JUST ONE NUMBER?
            6         A.    THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.
            7               THE REASON FOR THAT IS, EVERYBODY IS BUILT UP
            8   ON TWO SETS OF CHROMOSOMES.
            9               WITHOUT GETTING REAL COMPLICATED, ONE-HALF IS
           10   INHERITED FROM YOUR MOTHER AND ONE-HALF FROM YOUR FATHER.
           11   AND, THEREFORE, THERE ARE DIFFERENCES OF TWO DIFFERENT
           12   TYPES.
           13               ON OCCASION, YOUR MOTHER'S TYPE MIGHT BE THE
           14   SAME AS YOU'RE INHERITING FROM YOUR FATHER'S TYPE, WHICH
           15   WOULD BE, FOR INSTANCE, NICOLE SIMPSON.  SHE'S A 1.1, 1.1.
           16               BUT, FOR THE MOST PART, PEOPLE HAVE TWO
           17   DIFFERENT TYPES.
           18         Q.    AS SHOWN IN THE BLOOD OF RON GOLDMAN AND
           19   ORENTHAL SIMPSON?
           20         A.    YES.
           21         Q.    CAN YOU LIST FOR US THE VARIOUS TYPES.
           22               WHAT ARE ALL THE NUMERICAL TYPES THAT YOU
           23   CAN -- THE RANGE?  FROM WHAT TO WHAT?
           24         A.    OKAY.
           25               THE DIFFERENT POSSIBILITIES ARE GOING TO
           26   INCLUDE THE SPOTS THAT WOULD BE THE 1.1, 1.2 AND 1.3.  AND
           27   THERE IS ALSO A 2 AND A 3 ALONG WITH A 4.
           28               SO IF YOU TAKE THOSE SIX POSSIBILITIES AND YOU

                                                                          455

            1   TAKE EVERY SUPPOSABLE COMBINATION THAT YOU CAN GET, YOU
            2   WIND UP WITH TWENTY-ONE.
            3         Q.    IS THERE SUCH A THING AS A 2.6 OR A 3.7?
            4         A.    NO.
            5         Q.    IS IT ONLY THE NUMERAL 1 THAT HAS THE DECIMAL
            6   AND THE OTHER NUMBER AFTER IT AND THE OTHERS ARE JUST 2, 3
            7   AND 4?
            8         A.    OKAY.
            9               THE WAY THAT WORKS IS THE NUMERAL 1, OR THAT
           10   ONE WAS SUBTYPED INTO THE 1.1, 1.2 AND 1.3.
           11               IN ACTUALITY, THE 4 DOES HAVE SOME SUBTYPES,
           12   BUT WE DON'T CONSIDER BREAKING DOWN THE 4 INTO ITS
           13   SUBGROUPS BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY THEY DESIGNED THE TEST.
           14               THE REASON WHY THE MANUFACTURER DID THAT, TO MY
           15   UNDERSTANDING, IS THE SUBTYPES THAT THEY FOUND ON THAT 4
           16   WERE SO RARE THAT IT WAS INSIGNIFICANT STATISTICALLY.
           17         Q.    SO YOU HAVE A TYPE 1, AND THEN WITHIN THAT TYPE
           18   1 YOU HAVE THE SUBTYPES OF 1.1, 1.2 AND 1.3.
           19               IS THAT RIGHT?
           20         A.    YES.
           21         Q.    THEN AS TO 2, 3 AND 4, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY
           22   SUBTYPES SHOWN ON THIS TEST?
           23         A.    FOR THIS TEST, NO.
           24         Q.    I'M SHOWING YOU, SIR, THE EXHIBIT PREVIOUSLY
           25   MARKED AS PEOPLE'S NO. 28. THAT'S PHOTOGRAPHS -A THROUGH
           26   -F.
           27               DO THOSE PHOTOGRAPHIC NUMBERS CORRESPOND TO THE
           28   ITEM NUMBERS OF 47, 48, 49 AND 50?

                                                                          456

            1         A.    YES.
            2         Q.    THOSE ARE THE ITEM NUMBERS OF THOSE ITEMS
            3   NO. 47 THROUGH 50 YOU TESTED, 48 AND 50, AND OBTAINED
            4   CONCLUSIVE RESULTS.
            5               IS THAT RIGHT?
            6         A.    YES.
            7         Q.    THOSE TWO ITEMS ARE SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S 28 AS 113
            8   AND 115.  THAT WOULD BE PHOTOGRAPHS -C, -F AND -G.
            9               IF YOU NEED TO STEP DOWN TO SEE MORE CLEARLY,
           10   YOU CAN.
           11               I'M SORRY.  AND -A.  YOU SHOW THE PHOTOGRAPH IN
           12   113.
           13         A.    OKAY.
           14         Q.    THAT CORRESPONDS TO YOUR ITEM NO. 48?
           15         A.    YES.
           16         Q.    SO ITEM NO. 48 IS SHOWN IN -A; A CLOSE-UP OF
           17   THAT IS SHOWN IN -C ON THIS EXHIBIT.
           18               IS THAT RIGHT?
           19         A.    YES.
           20         Q.    ITEM NO. 50 IS SHOWN IN A PROSPECTIVE SHOT IN
           21   PHOTOGRAPH -F AND A CLOSE-UP OF THAT IS SHOWN IN PHOTOGRAPH
           22   -G.
           23               IS THAT CORRECT?
           24         A.    YES.
           25         Q.    AND YOU OBTAINED CONCLUSIVE RESULTS ON THOSE
           26   TWO ITEMS?
           27         A.    YES.
           28         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO PEOPLE'S 29, I'M JUST GOING TO

                                                                          457

            1   HOLD THIS AND SHOW IT TO YOU.
            2               THE PHOTOGRAPH, NO. 117, WHICH IS SHOWN IN
            3   PHOTOGRAPHS -B AND -C, CORRESPONDS TO YOUR ITEM NO. 52?
            4         A.    YES.
            5         Q.    YOU OBTAINED A CONCLUSIVE RESULT ON THAT AS
            6   WELL?
            7         A.    YES.
            8         Q.    WITH RESPECT TO ITEMS NO. 48, 50 AND 52, FOR
            9   WHICH YOU OBTAINED CONCLUSIVE RESULTS, WHAT WAS THAT
           10   RESULT?
           11         A.    1.1, 1.2.
           12         Q.    CONSISTENT WITH THE BLOOD OF ORENTHAL SIMPSON?
           13         A.    FOR THE H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA SYSTEM, YES.
           14         MS. CLARK:  NOTHING FURTHER.
           15         THE FOREPERSON:  MR. YAMAUCHI, BEFORE YOU LEAVE,
           16   PLEASE LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO
           17   YOU NOW:
           18               YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
           19   PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
           20   ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
           21               IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
           22   MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
           23   INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
           24   HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
           25   PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
           26               I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
           27   THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
           28   YOU.
                                                                          458

            1               DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
            2         THE WITNESS:  YES.
            3         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
            4               YOU ARE EXCUSED.
            5
            6                   (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
            7                       JURY HEARING ROOM.)
            8
            9         MS. CLARK:  EXCUSE ME, SIR.  I'M SORRY.
           10               MAY I ASK ONE MORE QUESTION?
           11         THE FOREPERSON:  YOU MAY DO SO.
           12         Q.    BY MS. CLARK:  THIS IS A GENERAL QUESTION,
           13   SIR.
           14               WERE YOU CERTIFIED IN ANY MANNER WITH RESPECT
           15   TO THE TESTING THAT YOU HAVE DONE IN THIS CASE, THE METHOD
           16   YOU USED, P.C.R. H.L.A. D.Q. ALPHA?
           17         A.    WELL, I PASSED THE CLASS BY THE MANUFACTURER OF
           18   THE POLYMERASE CHAIN REACTION ANALYZATION INSTRUMENT.
           19         Q.    HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU PERFORMED THIS TEST
           20   PRIOR TO THIS CASE?
           21         A.    I HAVE COMPLETED THIRTY-SIX CASES.
           22         Q.    THIRTY-SIX CASES?
           23         A.    YES.
           24         Q.    AND HOW MANY OF THOSE CASES -- HOW LONG HAVE
           25   YOU BEEN WITH THE L.A.P.D. AS AN EXPERT SEROLOGIST, SIR?
           26         A.    I HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR L.A.P.D. SEROLOGY FOR
           27   OVER 4 YEARS NOW.
           28         Q.    HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN DOING THE P.C.R. TESTING
                                                                          459

            1   FOR L.A.P.D.?
            2         A.    OVER 6 MONTHS.
            3         Q.    WAS THERE SOME FORM OF CERTIFICATION OR
            4   LICENSE, I THINK, THAT YOU HAD TO HAVE TO PASS AT L.A.P.D.
            5   IN ORDER TO BE QUALIFIED TO CONDUCT THE P.C.R. TESTING FOR
            6   L.A.P.D. AND COME INTO COURT AND TESTIFY TO THOSE RESULTS?
            7         A.    WE ARE TESTED BY OUTSIDE AGENCIES, SUCH AS
            8   COLLABORATIVE TESTING SERVICES AND THE COLLEGE OF AMERICAN
            9   PATHOLOGISTS.  WE RUN THESE TESTS AND ARE CHECKED ON THAT.
           10               BEFORE I STARTED CASE WORK, OF COURSE, I HAD TO
           11   RUN OVER A BATTERY OF VARIOUS TYPES OF SAMPLES AS WELL AS
           12   MOCK CASES, AND ONE MOCK CASE THAT WAS SET UP BY MY
           13   SUPERVISOR SPECIFICALLY, SUFFICE TO SAY, AS A LAST TEST.
           14         MS. CLARK:  NOTHING FURTHER.
           15         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
           16               YOU ARE EXCUSED.
           17
           18                   (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND

           19                       JURY HEARING ROOM.)
           20
           21         THE FOREPERSON:  THE GRAND JURORS WILL PLEASE SECURE
           22   THEIR NOTES.
           23               WE ARE IN RECESS IN THIS CASE UNTIL IT COMES
           24   BEFORE US AGAIN TOMORROW.
           25               THE GRAND JURORS HAVE BEEN ADMONISHED REGARDING
           26   DISCUSSION OF THE CASE.
           27               EXCUSE ME.  I THINK WE HAVE A CHANGE HERE.
           28         MS. CLARK:  MADAME FOREMAN, I WOULD ASK IF I COULD
                                                                          460

            1   ADMIT ALL OF THE EXHIBITS THAT HAVE BEEN MARKED IN THIS
            2   CASE.
            3         THE FOREPERSON:  SO RECEIVED.
            4                (RECEIVED IN EVID.: = EXHIBITS.)
            5         MS. CLARK:  THE PEOPLE REST.
            6         THE FOREPERSON:  THANK YOU.
            7               THE GRAND JURORS HAVE BEEN ADMONISHED REGARDING
            8   DISCUSSION OF THE CASE.
            9               PLEASE REMEMBER AND FOLLOW THE ADMONISHMENT.
           10               OUR SCHEDULE WILL THEN BE THAT WE ARE NOW IN
           11   RECESS FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE DAY.
           12               THE GRAND JURORS ARE ASKED TO RETURN TO THE
           13   HEARING ROOM TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:00 O'CLOCK REGARDING
           14   CLOSING ARGUMENTS AND FOLLOWED BY DELIBERATIONS WITH REGARD
           15   TO THE CASE BEFORE US.
           16
           17                  (EVENING ADJOURNMENT TAKEN.)
           18                             -O0O-
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           28