Grand Jury Testimony - June 21, 1994
148
1 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, JUNE 21, 1994
2 9:25 A.M.
3 -O0O-
4
5 (AT THE BEGINNING OF THESE PROCEEDINGS,
6 20 GRAND JURORS WERE PRESENT.)
7
8 THE FOREPERSON: THIS HEARING IS NOW IN SESSION.
9 WE ARE CONTINUING THIS MORNING WITH:
10 "NAME OF POSSIBLE DEFENDANT:
11 "ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON.
12 THE DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY ARE MARSHA CLARK
13 AND DAVID CONN.
14 MADAME SECRETARY?
15
16 (ROLL CALLED.)
17
18 THE SECRETARY: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THERE ARE
19 TWENTY GRAND JURORS PRESENT.
20 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
21 THE DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY MAY NOW
22 PROCEED.
23 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
24 THE PEOPLE CALL JILL SHIVELY.
25 I WOULD INDICATE TO MADAME FOREMAN THESE
26 WITNESSES DO NOT APPEAR ON THE WITNESS LIST. SOME
27 WITNESSES WERE ADDED LATER, AS THE INVESTIGATION IS
28 ONGOING. I APOLOGIZE TO THE MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY.
149
1 ALSO, I WOULD LIKE TO INDICATE THAT SOME OF THE
2 DELAYS THAT WE HAVE ENCOUNTERED ARE DUE TO THE FACT THAT
3 THE INVESTIGATION IS PROCEEDING AT A RAPID PACE BUT IS
4 STILL VERY ACTIVELY BEING PURSUED; AND, FOR THAT REASON,
5 MANY OF THE WITNESSES HAVE NOT BEEN PREVIOUSLY INTERVIEWED,
6 NOR ARE THERE ANY WITNESS STATEMENTS TO REVIEW ON THEM.
7 I APOLOGIZE TO THE MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
8 FOR THE DELAYS DUE TO THE FACT THAT WE HAVE TO TRY TO TALK
9 TO THE WITNESSES, AT LEAST BRIEFLY, BEFORE WE PRESENT THEIR
10 TESTIMONY IN ORDER TO PRESENT IT MORE EFFECTIVELY.
11 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU, MISS CLARK.
12 THE GRAND JURY APPRECIATES YOUR EXPLANATION.
13 JILL SHIVELY?
14 THE WITNESS: YES.
15 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
16 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
17 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
18 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
19 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
20 THE WITNESS: YES, I DO.
21 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
22 MISS SHIVELY, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
23 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
24 THE WITNESS: MY NAME IS JILL SHIVELY.
25 JILL, J-I-L-L, SHIVELY, S-H-I-V-E-L-Y.
26 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
27 YOU MAY NOW PROCEED.
28 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
150
1 JILL SHIVELY,
2 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
3 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
4
5 E X A M I N A T I O N
6 BY MS. CLARK:
7 Q. MISS SHIVELY, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE
8 DATE OF JUNE 12, 1994, AS OF THAT DATE, CAN YOU TELL US THE
9 GENERAL LOCATION IN WHICH YOU WERE LIVING.
10 A. 20TH AND WILSHIRE, ONE BLOCK NORTH ON
11 CALIFORNIA.
12 Q. IN SANTA MONICA?
13 A. IN SANTA MONICA, RIGHT.
14 Q. IS THAT ANYWHERE NEAR AN AREA KNOWN AS "THE
15 VILLAGE"?
16 A. IT'S PRETTY CLOSE; 3 MILES, SOMETHING LIKE
17 THAT.
18 Q. NOW, WHEN I MENTION "THE VILLAGE," WHAT IS
19 THAT?
20 A. BRENTWOOD VILLAGE.
21 Q. WHAT DO YOU FIND IN THAT VILLAGE?
22 A. DIFFERENT STORES, SHOPS, FOOD.
23 I JOG UP AROUND SAN VICENTE IN THE MEDIAN A
24 LOT.
25 Q. AND PEOPLE CONGREGATE THERE TO HAVE LUNCH OR
26 GO SHOPPING SORT OF THING?
27 A. RIGHT.
28 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN LIVING IN THAT AREA?
151
1 A. 8 YEARS.
2 Q. ON THE DATE OF JUNE 12, 1994, DO YOU RECALL
3 LEAVING YOUR HOUSE IN THE EVENING?
4 A. YES, I DO.
5 Q. WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE?
6 A. I LEFT MY HOUSE AT 10:45 P.M.
7 Q. ARE YOU CERTAIN OF THAT TIME?
8 A. YES, I AM.
9 Q. WHY ARE YOU SO CERTAIN?
10 A. BECAUSE I WAS TRYING TO GET TO THE STORE TO
11 THAT CLOSED AT 11 AND I WANTED TO GET SOMETHING TO EAT.
12 Q. WHEN YOU LEFT YOUR HOUSE, DID YOU NOTICE
13 WHETHER THE TRAFFIC THAT NIGHT WAS LIGHT OR HEAVY?
14 A. IT WAS VERY LIGHT.
15 THERE WERE VERY FEW CARS OUT.
16 Q. DO YOU HAPPEN TO RECALL WHAT THE WEATHER WAS
17 LIKE THAT NIGHT?
18 A. IT WAS KIND OF -- IT WASN'T REAL HOT. IT WAS
19 KIND OF A COOL BREEZE.
20 Q. SO YOU WERE DRIVING FAIRLY QUICKLY?
21 A. AROUND 45; 40, 45.
22 Q. AND AS YOU WERE DRIVING, WHAT STREET WERE YOU
23 TAKING?
24 A. SAN VICENTE, EAST.
25 Q. YOU WERE GOING EASTBOUND ON SAN VICENTE?
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. DID YOUR TRAVELING TAKE YOU TO THE INTERSECTION
28 OF SAN VICENTE AND BUNDY?
152
1 A. YES, IT DID.
2 Q. DID SOMETHING UNUSUAL OCCUR THERE?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. HOW LONG DID IT TAKE TO GET FROM YOUR HOUSE,
5 WHICH YOU LEFT AT 10:45, TO THE INTERSECTION OF SAN VICENTE
6 AND BUNDY?
7 A. APPROXIMATELY 3 TO 5 MINUTES.
8 Q. SO YOU ARRIVED AT THE INTERSECTION OF
9 SAN VICENTE AND BUNDY AT 10:48 TO 10:50?
10 A. RIGHT; YES.
11 Q. BEFORE WE GET INTO THE DISCUSSION OF WHAT YOU
12 SAW THERE, PERHAPS IT WOULD HELP YOU IF YOU USED THAT BOARD
13 NEXT TO YOU AND YOU DRAW A DIAGRAM OF THE INTERSECTION WITH
14 THAT BLUE MARKER IN FRONT OF YOU.
15 A. OKAY.
16 Q. EXPLAIN WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
17 I'M GOING TO HOLD THE MICROPHONE UP TO YOU SO
18 THE JURY CAN HEAR YOU.
19 A. OKAY.
20 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, I WILL ASK TO MARK THIS
21 AS PEOPLE'S 22.
22 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
23 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 22.)
24 THE WITNESS: SAN VICENTE IS A STREET WITH A GRASS
25 MEDIAN IN THE MIDDLE SO EACH LANE IS SPLIT.
26 THIS IS THE WESTBOUND LANE OF SAN VICENTE AND
27 THIS IS THE EASTBOUND LANE.
28 Q. BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU DRAW ARROWS TO INDICATE
153
1 THE DIRECTIONS ALSO.
2 A. OKAY.
3 AND THIS IS BUNDY. THIS IS NORTH AND THIS IS
4 SOUTH.
5 BUNDY ALSO SPLITS RIGHT HERE AND IT GOES
6 AROUND.
7 Q. SO IT KIND OF CURVES?
8 A. IT CURVES, RIGHT.
9 Q. CAN YOU WRITE "BUNDY" ON THE STREET THAT IS
10 BUNDY.
11 A. SURE.
12 THERE'S BUNDY.
13 Q. IS THERE A TRAFFIC SIGNAL?
14 A. THERE IS A LIGHT. THERE IS A LIGHT HERE --
15 EITHER HERE OR HERE. THERE IS A LIGHT. I DON'T KNOW
16 EXACTLY -- MAYBE THE POST IS RIGHT HERE.
17 THERE IS A LIGHT RIGHT HERE THAT TELLS YOU
18 WHERE YOU CAN TURN. WHEN YOU COME HERE, YOU HAVE TO STOP
19 AT THE LIGHT, AND HERE, TOO.
20 Q. YOU HAVE PUT TWO LITTLE DOTS ON THE MEDIAN
21 PORTION TO THE RIGHT AS YOU FACE THE DIAGRAM OF WHERE YOU
22 PUT "BUNDY."
23 IS THAT YOUR INDICATION FOR THE TRAFFIC LIGHTS?
24 A. I THINK THAT'S WHERE THEY ARE SITUATED.
25 AND THEN THERE IS A SCHOOL RIGHT HERE.
26 Q. GO AHEAD AND PUT "SCHOOL."
27 WHY DON'T YOU WRITE "SCHOOL."
28 A. ALL RIGHT.
154
1 AND THERE IS A GAS STATION HERE.
2 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS WRITING
3 DOWN "SCHOOL" AND "GAS STATION," AS SHE INDICATED IN HER
4 TESTIMONY, ON THE CHART.
5 Q. CAN YOU TELL US NOW -- CAN YOU INDICATE WITH A
6 SQUARE AND AN ARROW INDICATING YOUR DIRECTION WHERE YOUR
7 CAR WAS.
8 A. MY CAR IS HERE, GOING EASTBOUND ON SAN VICENTE,
9 AND A WHITE -- THE WHITE BRONCO WAS GOING NORTH ON BUNDY
10 WITH NO LIGHTS ON.
11 Q. WILL YOU PLEASE MAKE A SQUARE WITH A "B" INSIDE
12 OF IT.
13 A. OKAY.
14 SHALL I PUT IT WHERE IT STOPPED OR WHERE IT'S
15 GOING?
16 Q. EITHER ONE.
17 A. OKAY. WHERE IT STOPPED.
18 AND I STOPPED RIGHT HERE.
19 Q. YOU HAVE MADE ANOTHER CAR ON EASTBOUND
20 SAN VICENTE, INDICATING YOUR CAR.
21 CAN YOU PUT YOUR INITIALS BY THAT CAR, PLEASE.
22 A. OKAY. "J.S."
23 Q. THANK YOU.
24 A. AND THEN I WAS DRIVING EASTBOUND, AND AS I GET
25 TO THE INTERSECTION I HAVE THE GREEN.
26 A WHITE BRONCO RUNS THE RED LIGHT AND GOES
27 THROUGH THE INTERSECTION AND ALMOST HITS ME.
28 I ENDED UP SWERVING THIS WAY TOWARDS THE SCHOOL
155
1 AND THE BRONCO, WHICH WAS COMING AT ME, SWERVED AROUND AND
2 WENT THAT WAY.
3 Q. BEFORE YOU GET TO THAT, IS THERE ANOTHER CAR
4 INVOLVED IN THIS AS WELL?
5 A. YES.
6 THERE IS A NISSAN THAT I DIDN'T SEE UNTIL HE
7 HAD STOPPED RIGHT HERE BLOCKING THE BRONCO.
8 Q. CAN YOU PUT AN "N" IN THE SQUARE.
9 A. OKAY.
10 Q. NOW, YOU HAVE DRAWN IN EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO
11 DRAW?
12 A. RIGHT, I THINK SO.
13 Q. WHY DON'T YOU HAVE A SEAT.
14 CAN YOU REACH WITH THE POINTER TO SHOW US?
15 A. SURE.
16 Q. SO YOU GOT TO THE INTERSECTION OF SAN VICENTE
17 AND BUNDY GOING EASTBOUND AT ABOUT 10:48 TO 10:50.
18 A. RIGHT.
19 Q. THERE WAS A TRAFFIC LIGHT THAT CONTROLLED THE
20 EAST/WEST TRAFFIC AS WELL AS THE NORTH/SOUTH TRAFFIC.
21 A. THAT'S TRUE.
22 Q. WAS THE LIGHT RED OR GREEN FOR YOU?
23 A. IT WAS GREEN FOR ME.
24 Q. WHICH WOULD MEAN, THEN, THAT IT WAS RED FOR
25 NORTH OR SOUTHBOUND TRAFFIC ON BUNDY.
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. AS YOU PROCEEDED TO THE INTERSECTION, WHAT
28 HAPPENED?
156
1 A. AS I PROCEEDED TO THE INTERSECTION, OUT OF THE
2 CORNER OF MY EYE I SAW SOMETHING, A WHITE CAR OR TRUCK,
3 BRONCO, COME RIGHT INTO MY -- IN FRONT OF ME AND IT DIDN'T
4 HAVE ANY LIGHTS ON. SO I COULDN'T SEE IT.
5 HE STOPPED -- HE STOPPED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE
6 GRASSY MEDIAN RIGHT HERE AND HE TURNED AROUND AND LOOKED AT
7 ME.
8 Q. YOU SAY YOU STOPPED WHERE YOU WROTE "CAR" AND
9 "J.S."
10 A. RIGHT.
11 Q. IS THAT THE POINT WHEN YOU FIRST NOTICED HIM AS
12 HE WAS TRAVELING NORTHBOUND ON BUNDY?
13 A. WHEN HE WAS -- THE FIRST TIME I NOTICED HIM WAS
14 WHEN HE WAS RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF ME AND I THOUGHT I WAS
15 GOING TO HIT HIM.
16 Q. SO BY THAT TIME WAS THE WHITE CAR OVER THE
17 LIMIT LINE, RUNNING THE RED LIGHT?
18 A. YES, IT WAS.
19 IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF -- IT WAS IN FRONT OF
20 ME AND THEN IT ENDED UP STOPPING RIGHT THERE IN THE MIDDLE.
21 Q. YOU ARE INDICATING, "RIGHT THERE IN THE
22 MIDDLE."
23 YOU HAVE THE SQUARE WITH THE "B" MARKED ON IT?
24 A. RIGHT.
25 Q. SO AFTER RUNNING THE RED LIGHT, IT GOT TO THAT
26 PART BETWEEN THE MEDIANS -- BETWEEN THE GRASS MEDIANS AND
27 STOPPED?
28 A. BETWEEN THE TWO LANES; RIGHT.
157
1 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
2 A. WELL, IT STOPPED, BECAUSE THERE WAS A CAR THAT
3 WAS GOING WESTBOUND, A NISSAN.
4 FROM WHAT I CAN PUT TOGETHER, THE NISSAN, I
5 THINK, STOPPED TO AVOID RUNNING INTO THE BRONCO.
6 BUT WHEN IT STOPPED, IT BLOCKED THE BRONCO AND
7 IT STOPPED RIGHT THERE.
8 AND THEN THE MAN IN THE BRONCO STARTED YELLING
9 AT THE GUY IN THE NISSAN TO MOVE HIS CAR.
10 Q. SO THE BRONCO KEPT ON GOING UP NORTHBOUND ON
11 BUNDY AFTER RUNNING THE RED LIGHT -- AFTER INITIALLY
12 RUNNING THAT RED LIGHT AT THE INTERSECTION WHERE IT WAS
13 EASTBOUND TRAFFIC ON BUNDY, IT KEPT ON GOING AND STOPPED AT
14 THE POINT WHERE YOU HAVE INDICATED?
15 A. RIGHT.
16 Q. AND THEN THERE WAS THAT CAR THAT YOU HAVE
17 MARKED IN A BOX WITH AN "N" IN IT THAT WAS BLOCKING ITS
18 PATH FROM GOING ANY FARTHER?
19 A. RIGHT.
20 Q. AT THAT POINT, THE BRONCO STOPPED?
21 A. THE BRONCO HAD TO STOP, BECAUSE THE CAR, THE
22 NISSAN WAS TRYING TO MOVE OUT OF THE WAY, BUT THEY KEPT
23 MOVING THE SAME WAY.
24 LIKE THE BRONCO WOULD MOVE FORWARD, THE NISSAN
25 WOULD MOVE FORWARD.
26 SO THEN THEY BOTH STARTED TO MOVE BACKWARDS AND
27 THE BRONCO TRIED TO GO AROUND THE NISSAN IN THE BACK, BUT
28 THE NISSAN WAS BACKING UP.
158
1 SO THEY DID IT AGAIN IN THE FRONT.
2 AND THEN FINALLY THE NISSAN WENT AHEAD AND WENT
3 WEST AND THE BRONCO TURNED AND TOOK OFF BEHIND THE NISSAN
4 GOING NORTHBOUND ON BUNDY.
5 Q. NOW, AT THE POINT THAT THE DRIVER OF THE BRONCO
6 STOPPED, WAS THE NISSAN ACTUALLY BLOCKING HIS PATH?
7 A. YES, IT WAS.
8 Q. WAS THE DRIVER'S SIDE WINDOW OF THE BRONCO
9 OPENED OR CLOSED?
10 A. IT WAS OPENED.
11 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE PERSON SEATED IN THE
12 BRONCO?
13 A. YES, I WAS.
14 Q. AND HOW WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE HIM?
15 A. HE TURNED AROUND AND GLARED AT ME AFTER HE HAD
16 ALMOST HIT ME, AND THEN I -- THEN HE STARTED YELLING AT THE
17 GUY IN THE NISSAN TO MOVE HIS CAR.
18 Q. SO WHEN YOU SAY HE TURNED AROUND AND GLARED AT
19 YOU, DID YOU ACTUALLY MAKE EYE CONTACT WITH HIM?
20 A. YES, I DID.
21 Q. DID HE SAY ANYTHING?
22 A. NO. HE JUST GAVE ME A REAL QUICK LOOK, LIKE
23 WHAT WAS I -- YOU KNOW, IT LOOKED LIKE HE WAS MAD OR ANGRY
24 AND LIKE WHAT WAS I DOING TO HIM OR SOMETHING.
25 I FELT LIKE HE WAS LOOKING AT ME LIKE I HAD
26 ALMOST HIT HIM OR SOMETHING.
27 Q. DID HE SAY ANYTHING TO THE DRIVER OF THE
28 NISSAN?
159
1 A. HE KEPT TELLING HIM, "GET OUT OF THE WAY; GET
2 OUT OF THE WAY. MOVE THE CAR; MOVE. GET OUT OF THE WAY."
3 AND THEN THE MORE HE YELLED, THE DRIVER OF THE
4 NISSAN, THE GUY IN THE NISSAN GOT UPSET AND HE WAS TRYING
5 TO GET HIS CAR OUT OF THE WAY.
6 BUT THEY WERE BOTH RUNNING INTO EACH OTHER EACH
7 WAY THEY WENT.
8 Q. DID THE DRIVER OF THE BRONCO EVER PUT HIS HEAD
9 OUT THE WINDOW OR ANY PART OF HIS BODY OUT THE DRIVER'S
10 SIDE WINDOW?
11 A. HE STUCK HIS HAND AND LEANED OUT TO YELL AT THE
12 GUY.
13 Q. CAN YOU SHOW US WHAT THAT IS.
14 A. HE WENT LIKE THIS, "MOVE; GET OUT OF THE WAY;
15 MOVE," LIKE THAT.
16 MS. CLARK: THE WITNESS HAS LEANED HER UPPER TORSO TO
17 THE LEFT AND EXTENDED HER ARMS OUT AND HER HEAD OUT WHILE
18 LEANING SIDEWAYS.
19 Q. DID THE NISSAN DRIVER SAY ANYTHING TO RESPONSE?
20 A. HE LOOKED SCARED.
21 HE LOOKED ANGRY AT FIRST, BUT THEN HE LOOKED
22 SCARED, BECAUSE SOMEONE -- HE WAS LIKE A MANIAC, SOMEONE
23 GONE CRAZY OR SOMETHING.
24 Q. NO; WAIT. NO; NO.
25 DON'T SPECULATE WHAT THE NISSAN DRIVER WAS
26 THINKING.
27 A. OKAY.
28 HE LOOKED SCARED AT FIRST, OR ANGRY, AND THEN
160
1 HE LOOKED SCARED.
2 Q. NOW, DID THAT YELLING OCCUR BEFORE OR AFTER YOU
3 MADE EYE CONTACT WITH HIM?
4 A. AFTER.
5 Q. SO FIRST HE LOOKED AT YOU --
6 A. HE GLANCED BACK AT ME AND I COULD SEE HIM
7 FULL-FACE DIAGONALLY.
8 THEN HE WAS YELLING AT THE DRIVER LIKE HE WAS
9 IN A HURRY TO GET OUT OF THE SITUATION HE WAS NOW IN.
10 Q. SO THEY WERE -- AS ONE WOULD PULL BACK, THE
11 OTHER PULLED BACK?
12 A. YEAH.
13 Q. AS ONE WOULD PULL FORWARD, THE OTHER WOULD PULL
14 FORWARD?
15 A. THREE TIMES. THEY DID IT THREE TIMES.
16 Q. DID THE DRIVER OF THE BRONCO EVER ATTEMPT TO
17 PULL UP OVER THE MEDIAN?
18 A. HE WAS GOING TO GO UP OVER THE CURB, THE MEDIAN
19 CURB, BUT THE DRIVER OF THE NISSAN PULLED FORWARD.
20 AND THEN HE REALIZED THAT HE HAD TO GO BEHIND
21 THE NISSAN, BUT THE NISSAN THEN MOVED BACK.
22 THEN THEY WENT FORWARD AGAIN, AND THEN HE
23 FINALLY TOOK OFF. THE BRONCO TOOK OFF AFTER THAT.
24 Q. SO THE NISSAN DRIVER ULTIMATELY PULLED THE CAR
25 FORWARD ENOUGH --
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. -- THEN THE DRIVER OF THE BRONCO --
28 A. SPED AROUND HIM, IN BACK OF HIM AND TOOK OFF
161
1 NORTH ON BUNDY.
2 Q. WERE THE HEADLIGHTS STILL OUT?
3 A. THEY WERE STILL OUT.
4 Q. AND HE WAS SPEEDING, GOING QUICKLY UP NORTH ON
5 BUNDY?
6 A. YEAH.
7 HE WAS GOING FAST BECAUSE YOU COULD HEAR LIKE
8 THE ENGINE WAS KIND OF ZOOMING, "WHOOM, WHOOM."
9 HE WAS REALLY MOVING, MOVING FAST.
10 Q. NOW, THE AREA THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, THAT
11 WHOLE INTERSECTION WHERE YOU WITNESSED ALL THESE EVENTS, IS
12 IT DARK OR IS IT WELL LIT?
13 A. IT'S WELL LIT BY STREET LIGHTS AND A GAS
14 STATION THERE.
15 Q. WHERE YOU HAVE INDICATED?
16 A. RIGHT.
17 Q. SO WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE DRIVER VERY
18 CLEARLY?
19 A. I RECOGNIZED HIM RIGHT AWAY.
20 Q. AND WHO IS HE?
21 A. I SAW O.J. SIMPSON.
22 Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN HIM AROUND THE NEIGHBORHOOD?
23 A. AT THE PARK, DIFFERENT SHOPS, THE POST OFFICE.
24 HE WAS OUT A LOT WHEN HE WAS AROUND. HE WAS
25 OUT ALL THE TIME.
26 HE WAS A COMMON FIGURE THERE IN THE VILLAGE.
27 Q. WHEN YOU HEARD HIM YELLING AT THE NISSAN
28 DRIVER, WAS THE VOICE FAMILIAR TO YOU?
162
1 A. YES.
2 THEN I CONFIRMED THAT IT WAS HIM. I KNEW RIGHT
3 AWAY IT WAS 100 PERCENT HIM.
4 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE NISSAN FOR US.
5 A. IT WAS A WHITE -- OH, THE NISSAN?
6 THE NISSAN WAS A GRAY TWO-DOOR. IT WAS JUST A
7 REGULAR PLAIN NISSAN, A SIMPLE MODEL; JUST A TWO-DOOR.
8 I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT KIND, BUT IT WAS A
9 TWO-DOOR LIGHT GRAY NISSAN.
10 Q. AND THE DRIVER, CAN YOU DESCRIBE HIM.
11 A. HE WAS YOUNG. I'D SAY BETWEEN 18 AND 25 AND
12 LOOKED LIKE A YOUNG KID, A YOUNG GUY.
13 AND HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY FACIAL HAIR OR
14 ANYTHING. LIKE HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A COLLEGE STUDENT OR
15 SOMETHING.
16 MS. CLARK: I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THE NEXT EXHIBIT,
17 YOUR HONOR, AS PEOPLE'S 23, IF I MAY.
18 THE FOREPERSON: YOU MAY DO SO.
19 Q. BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 23.
20 CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE PERSON
21 SHOWN THERE.
22 A. YES, I DO.
23 Q. WHO IS THAT?
24 A. O.J. SIMPSON.
25 Q. IS THAT PERSON YOU SAW DRIVING THE FORD BRONCO
26 THAT NIGHT?
27 A. YES, IT IS.
28 Q. SHOWING YOU AN EXHIBIT THAT HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY
163
1 MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 5.
2 CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE CAR SHOWN
3 IN THE PHOTOGRAPH SHOWN AS -A.
4 A. YES, I DO.
5 THAT'S THE EXACT CAR.
6 Q. THAT'S THE BRONCO YOU SAW O.J. SIMPSON DRIVING
7 THAT NIGHT JUNE 12, 1994?
8 A. IT IS. I CAN TELL.
9 AND THEN THE RIMS LOOK EXACTLY LIKE THE RIMS.
10 THEY WERE FLASHY. AND THE BACK BUMPER AND THE TWO-DOOR; IT
11 WAS ALL WHITE.
12 Q. AND YOU SAW THAT CAR AND YOU SAW THE DRIVER
13 VERY CLEARLY?
14 A. VERY CLEARLY.
15 I COULD SEE HIS FACE FULL VIEW LOOKING AT ME.
16 THERE WAS NO DOUBT.
17 Q. IF YOU KNOW, CAN YOU TELL US HOW FAR THE
18 INTERSECTION OF SAN VICENTE AND BUNDY IS FROM THE LOCATION
19 OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY.
20 A. I LEARNED LATER THAT IT WAS LIKE TWO BLOCKS --
21 Q. YOU DON'T KNOW FROM PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE?
22 YOU DID NOT PERSONALLY EVER OBSERVE THE
23 DISTANCE BETWEEN THOSE LOCATIONS?
24 A. NO.
25 I NEVER DROVE IT MYSELF.
26 Q. OKAY. THEN DON'T TELL US.
27 CAN YOU TELL US HOW YOU CAN BE SO SPECIFIC AS
28 TO THE TIME THAT ALL OF THESE EVENTS OCCURRED.
164
1 A. YES, I CAN.
2 I WAS TRYING TO GET TO A MARKET, WHICH WOULD
3 HAVE TAKEN ME ABOUT 5 MINUTES TO GET THERE, AND I THOUGHT
4 THAT IT CLOSED AT 11.
5 I HAD 15 MINUTES TO GET THERE AND -- I WANTED A
6 SALAD BAR AND I HAD 15 MINUTES TO GET THERE, GET A SALAD
7 BAR AND SO I KNEW THAT I HAD LEFT AT QUARTER TO 11.
8 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
9 NOTHING FURTHER.
10 THE WITNESS: OKAY.
11 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
12 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
13 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
14 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
15
16 (SHORT PAUSE.)
17
18 Q. BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU, IN FACT, GET TO THE
19 STORE BEFORE 11:00 O'CLOCK P.M.?
20 A. YES, I DID.
21 Q. DO YOU RECALL APPROXIMATELY HOW MUCH BEFORE
22 11:00 O'CLOCK YOU GOT THERE?
23 A. WHEN I GOT THERE, I HAD 8 MINUTES TO GET A
24 SALAD BAR BY THE CLOCK IN MY CAR.
25 Q. SO BY THE CLOCK IN YOUR CAR, IT WAS 10:52.
26 A. RIGHT.
27 Q. DID YOU DRIVE STRAIGHT TO THE STORE AFTER
28 YOU -- AFTER THESE EVENTS OCCURRED?
165
1 A. FROM THERE, I WENT TO THE STORE AND PULLED INTO
2 THE PARKING LOT. AND AT THE TIME I PULLED INTO THE PARKING
3 LOT, IT WAS 8 MINUTES.
4 I WAS GOING TO RUN IN. I GOT OUT OF MY CAR AND
5 I RAN IN -- I WAS GOING TO GO INTO THERE AND THEY WERE
6 OPEN, BUT THEIR SALAD BAR WAS DOWN.
7 Q. HOW LONG, IF YOU KNOW, DO YOU THINK IT TOOK YOU
8 FROM THE POINT YOU LEFT THE INTERSECTION TO GET TO THE
9 STORE?
10 A. A MINUTE OR TWO.
11 A MINUTE.
12 Q. SO YOU THINK YOU LEFT THAT INTERSECTION AT
13 ABOUT 10:50?
14 A. APPROXIMATELY; RIGHT.
15 Q. SO YOU LEFT THE INTERSECTION AND MR. SIMPSON
16 SPED UP BUNDY NORTH ON BUNDY AT ABOUT 10:50?
17 A. RIGHT.
18 I WAS AWARE OF THE TIME BECAUSE I WAS TRYING TO
19 BEAT THE CLOCK.
20 Q. DID THE STORE CLOSE AT 11:00 O'CLOCK?
21 A. NO. IT ENDED UP CLOSING AT 12.
22 MS. CLARK: I SHOULD INDICATE FOR THE RECORD THE
23 QUESTIONS I'M ASKING NOW ARE FROM THE GRAND JURY.
24 WAS THE DRIVER OF THE NISSAN CAUCASIAN OR SOME
25 OTHER ETHNICITY?
26 A. CAUCASIAN.
27 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF THE GAS STATION WAS OPEN THAT
28 NIGHT?
166
1 A. I COULDN'T -- I DON'T REMEMBER IT BEING OPENED
2 OR CLOSED.
3 ALL I REMEMBER, THERE WERE LOTS OF LIGHTS
4 AROUND.
5 I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION.
6 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT MR. SIMPSON WAS WEARING?
7 A. I REMEMBER IT AS BEING SOMETHING DARK.
8 I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING BESIDES DARK.
9 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER THERE WERE LONG OR SHORT
10 SLEEVES?
11 A. I THINK IT WAS SHORT.
12 Q. DO YOU RECALL SEEING BEAR ARMS?
13 A. I DO REMEMBER SEEING BEAR ARMS; RIGHT.
14 THAT'S WHY I'M PRETTY SURE IT WAS SHORT
15 SLEEVED.
16 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
17 THE FOREPERSON: ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
18 TO BE SUBMITTED FROM THE GRAND JURORS?
19
20 (SHORT PAUSE.)
21
22 Q. BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU ESTIMATE FOR US THE
23 DISTANCE BETWEEN YOUR CAR -- I WILL ASK YOU FOR TWO
24 DIFFERENT POINTS:
25 YOU HAVE DEMONSTRATED ON THE CHART YOUR CAR AND
26 THE BRONCO, AND THE FIRST INDICATION IS WHERE THE BOX WITH
27 THE CAR WITH YOUR INITIALS AND THEN THE BRONCO IS THE BOX
28 WITH THE "B" IN IT.
167
1 WHAT WAS THE DISTANCE BETWEEN YOUR CAR AND THE
2 BRONCO AT THAT POINT?
3 A. IT WAS LIKE FROM WHERE I'M SITTING TO WHERE
4 THEY ARE SITTING RIGHT THERE.
5 SO I GUESS --
6 MS. CLARK: ESTIMATE 15, 20 FEET.
7 FOR THE RECORD, THE GRAND JURY ADVISOR JUST
8 PULLED OUT A CHART INDICATING DISTANCES AND CONFIRMED IT
9 WOULD BE AN ESTIMATE OF 15 TO 20 FEET.
10 Q. AGAIN, WHEN YOU PULLED ACROSS THE
11 INTERSECTION -- EXCUSE ME.
12 WHEN YOU FIRST MADE CONTACT OR FIRST SIGHTED
13 THE BRONCO, HOW CLOSE WERE YOU TO IT?
14 A. FROM -- WELL, HE WAS RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME,
15 PROBABLY -- I DON'T KNOW.
16 I WANT TO SAY LIKE ALMOST FROM WHERE I'M
17 SITTING TO WHERE HE'S SITTING AND HE WENT RIGHT BESIDE ME.
18 I MISSED HIM BY, I'M SURE, INCHES. I ALMOST
19 HIT HIM.
20 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS
21 INDICATING FROM HERSELF TO THE COURT REPORTER, WHO IS NOW
22 SITTING MAYBE 3 FEET AWAY FROM HER.
23 THE WITNESS: RIGHT.
24 Q. BY MS. CLARK: DOES THAT SOUND RIGHT TO YOU,
25 3 FEET?
26 A. OR CLOSER.
27 I MEAN, IT WAS A WHITE BLUR RIGHT IN FRONT OF
28 ME.
168
1 I REMEMBER ALMOST HITTING HIM.
2 Q. WAS THE SIDE CLOSEST TO YOU THE DRIVER'S SIDE?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. AND THE WINDOW WAS DOWN?
5 A. THE WINDOW WAS DOWN.
6 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS?
7 A. I WAS, YES.
8 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS
9 WEARING GLOVES?
10 A. I SAW HIS -- I DIDN'T SEE ANY GLOVES.
11 I SAW A HAND BECAUSE I COULD SEE -- I DIDN'T
12 SEE ANY GLOVES ON HIM.
13 Q. YOU SAID THAT -- YOU HAVE INDICATED TO US THAT
14 THE BRONCO WAS FLASHY.
15 A. ITS WHEELS, THEY SPARKLED IN THE LIGHT, THE
16 RIMS.
17 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
18 THE FOREPERSON: MISS SHIVELY, BEFORE YOU LEAVE,
19 PLEASE LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO
20 YOU NOW:
21 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
22 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
23 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
24 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
25 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
26 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
27 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
28 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
169
1 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
2 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
3 YOU.
4 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
5 THE WITNESS: YES, I DO.
6 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
7 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
8 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.
9
10 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
11 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
12
13 THE FOREPERSON: MISS CLARK, YOU MAY NOW PROCEED.
14 MS. CLARK: PEOPLE CALL SUKRU BOZTEPE.
15 THE FOREPERSON: SUKRU BOZTEPE?
16 THE WITNESS: YES.
17 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
18 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
19 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
20 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
21 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
22 THE WITNESS: YES, I SWEAR.
23 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
24 MR. BOZTEPE, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
25 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
26 THE WITNESS: S-U-K-R-U B-O-Z-T-E-P-E.
27 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
28 IF YOU WOULD PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE
170
1 RECORD.
2 THE WITNESS: SUKRU BOZTEPE.
3
4 SUKRU BOZTEPE,
5 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
6 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
7
8 E X A M I N A T I O N
9 BY MS. CLARK:
10 Q. MR. BOZTEPE, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE
11 DATE OF JUNE 12, 1994, AS OF THAT DATE, CAN YOU TELL US IN
12 THE GENERAL LOCATION YOU WERE LIVING.
13 A. I LIVE AT 11965 MONTANA AVENUE.
14 IT'S AROUND 500, 600 FEET FROM THE CRIME SCENE.
15 Q. OKAY.
16 ABOUT 500 OR 600 FEET FROM 875 SOUTH BUNDY?
17 A. I GUESS SO, YEAH.
18 Q. WHAT ARE THE MAJOR CROSS STREETS NEAR YOUR
19 HOUSE?
20 A. BUNDY AND SAN VICENTE.
21 Q. ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12, 1994, WERE YOU OUT
22 THAT EVENING?
23 A. YES.
24 I WAS IN TORRANCE.
25 Q. WHAT TIME DID YOU GET HOME?
26 A. 11:40.
27 Q. DO YOU LIVE IN AN APARTMENT BUILDING OR HOUSE?
28 A. APARTMENT BUILDING.
171
1 Q. WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO YOUR APARTMENT BUILDING,
2 DID YOU SEE SOMETHING UNUSUAL?
3 A. YEAH.
4 OUR UPSTAIRS NEIGHBOR WAS SITTING WITH A BIG
5 DOG. SO IT WAS PRETTY UNUSUAL.
6 Q. HAD YOU EVER SEEN THAT DOG BEFORE?
7 A. NO.
8 Q. DID YOU -- WERE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH ANY PETS
9 THAT LIVED IN THE BUILDING?
10 A. EXCUSE ME?
11 Q. DID YOU KNOW OF THE OTHER ANIMALS THAT MAY HAVE
12 LIVED IN THE BUILDING?
13 A. YES; YES.
14 Q. THAT DOG THAT YOU SAW, WAS IT WITH SOMEONE YOU
15 KNEW?
16 A. NO.
17 Q. WAS THE DOG WITH SOMEONE YOU KNEW?
18 A. OH, YEAH.
19 Q. WHO WAS THE PERSON THE DOG WAS WITH?
20 A. OUR UPSTAIRS NEIGHBORS, STEVEN AND LINDA.
21 Q. DID THEY OWN ANY PETS?
22 A. YES; THEY HAVE ONE CAT AND ONE DOG.
23 Q. THAT WAS NOT THEIR DOG, I TAKE IT?
24 A. NO.
25 Q. DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM ABOUT THAT
26 DOG?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. AFTER YOU HAD THAT CONVERSATION, DID YOU DO
172
1 SOMETHING WITH THE DOG?
2 A. YEAH.
3 WE DECIDED TO TAKE THE DOG INSIDE OF OUR HOUSE
4 AND KEEP IT OVERNIGHT AND GIVE IT TO THE ANIMAL SHELTER THE
5 NEXT MORNING.
6 Q. DID YOU TAKE THE DOG TO YOUR APARTMENT THEN?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. HOW DID THE DOG BEHAVE IN YOUR APARTMENT?
9 A. HE WAS PRETTY NERVOUS AND HE WAS GOING TO THE
10 DOORS AND WINDOWS, RUNNING AROUND IN THE HOUSE.
11 SO IT WASN'T SO -- PRETTY NERVOUS.
12 Q. THE DOG WAS ACTING NERVOUS?
13 A. YEAH.
14 Q. DID YOU SEE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT HIS LEGS OR
15 HIS BODY?
16 A. ON THE LEGS, THERE WAS BLOOD.
17 Q. WAS IT WET OR DRY BLOOD?
18 A. DRY.
19 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?
20 WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE DOG?
21 A. WELL, WE DIDN'T -- WE DIDN'T FEEL COMFORTABLE
22 WITH THE DOG OVERNIGHT.
23 WE WANTED TO TAKE HIM FOR A WALK.
24 Q. BECAUSE HE WAS ACTING NERVOUS?
25 A. YEAH; AND WE THOUGHT WE CAN FIND THE OWNERS.
26 MAYBE THEY ARE SEARCHING FOR HER OR HIM.
27 SO WE TOOK HIM FOR A WALK.
28 Q. WHEN YOU TOOK HIM OUT FOR A WALK, DID YOU LEAD
173
1 HIM OR DID HE LEAD YOU?
2 A. I JUST LET THE DOG LEAD US.
3 Q. WHERE DID THE DOG LEAD YOU?
4 A. WE WENT TO BUNDY, TURNED LEFT AND DIRECTLY WENT
5 TO THE CRIME -- CRIME SCENE.
6 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "THE CRIME SCENE," YOU MEAN --
7 A. I DON'T KNOW THE ADDRESS. BUT IT'S ON BUNDY.
8 Q. SO THE DOG LED.
9 AS IT WENT UP BUNDY, DID IT BEHAVE CALMLY OR
10 CAN YOU DESCRIBE HOW IT BEHAVED?
11 A. WELL, AS SOON -- WHEN WE GET CLOSER TO THE
12 PLACE, HE STARTED TO PULL ME A LOT HARDER THAN NORMAL.
13 Q. HE SEEMED TO GET MORE EXCITED AS HE WENT UP
14 BUNDY?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. WERE YOU WALKING NORTH ON BUNDY AT THAT POINT?
17 A. WE WERE WALKING FROM SAN VICENTE TO WILSHIRE,
18 FROM NORTH TO SOUTH.
19 Q. SO YOU WERE WALKING SOUTH ON BUNDY?
20 A. YEAH.
21 Q. AND THE DOG SEEMED TO GET MORE EXCITED AS YOU
22 GOT -- AS YOU WENT FARTHER SOUTH ON BUNDY?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
25 A. AND IT WASN'T SO FAR.
26 WE WERE WALKING ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF BUNDY ON
27 THE WALKWAY AND THE DOG STOPPED AND TURNED RIGHT AND LOOKED
28 AT -- AND I TURNED RIGHT AND LOOKED, TOO, AND I SEEN HER
174
1 BODY.
2 Q. WHERE DID THE DOG STOP?
3 WAS IT IN THE STREET? ON THE SIDEWALK?
4 A. ON THE SIDEWALK.
5 Q. WAS THERE A PATH THAT INTERSECTED WITH THE
6 SIDEWALK AT THAT POINT?
7 A. THERE WAS AN ENTRANCE TO THE HOUSE.
8 Q. A PATH LEADING TO THE HOUSE?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. DID THE DOG STOP THERE?
11 A. YEAH.
12 Q. DID YOU STOP AS WELL?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. WHAT DID YOU SEE?
15 A. I SEEN HER BODY LAYING DOWN ON THE GROUND, ALL
16 OVER THE ENTRANCE.
17 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE LIGHTING CONDITION WHERE
18 HER BODY WAS.
19 A. IT WAS SO DARK. IT WAS REAL DARK. ONLY THE
20 STREET LIGHTS FROM -- FROM BACK, OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE
21 STREET.
22 AND THERE WAS A BIG TREE JUST IN FRONT OF THE
23 STREET, SO IT WAS SO DARK.
24 Q. SO HAD THE DOG NOT STOPPED, WOULD YOU HAVE
25 NOTICED THIS WOMAN LYING THERE?
26 A. NO; NO.
27 Q. WAS THERE ANY LIGHT COMING FROM THE BUILDING,
28 THE HOUSE?
175
1 A. NOT AS I REMEMBER, NO.
2 Q. HAVE YOU WALKED DOWN THAT SIDEWALK SINCE THAT
3 NIGHT AT NIGHT?
4 A. NO; NO.
5 Q. YOU HAVE NOT WALKED ON THAT STREET SINCE?
6 A. NO.
7 Q. WHEN THE DOG GOT TO THAT LOCATION AT THE
8 SIDEWALK AND PAST THE HOUSE, DID THE DOG STOP?
9 A. YES, THE DOG STOPPED AND TURNED RIGHT AND
10 LOOKED, LOOKED AT THE BODIES.
11 Q. THEN YOU LOOKED IN THE DIRECTION THE DOG
12 LOOKED?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED AS
15 PEOPLE'S 1.
16 I'M JUST GOING TO SHOW YOU THE TOP THREE
17 PHOTOGRAPHS AND ASK YOU IF THAT IS THE LOCATION AND THE
18 CONDITION IN WHICH YOU FOUND IT WHEN YOU SAW IT.
19 I'M NOT GOING TO SHOW YOU THE REST OF THESE
20 PHOTOGRAPHS.
21 A. YES; YES.
22 Q. THAT'S THE LOCATION YOU ARE DESCRIBING?
23 IS THAT WOMAN YOU HAVE DESCRIBED SEEN LYING
24 DOWN?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER YOU SAW HER?
27 A. I SAID TO MY WIFE TO CALL 911 AND WE CROSSED
28 THE STREET AND KNOCKED ON ONE OF THE HOUSE'S DOOR.
176
1 NO ONE CAME TO THE DOOR.
2 THERE WAS SOMEBODY WALKING ON THE STREET TO HER
3 CAR. WE SAID TO HER THAT SHE SHOULD CALL 911 AND SHE DROVE
4 AWAY.
5 THEN WE KNOCKED ON ANOTHER PERSON'S DOOR AND
6 SAID TO HIM HE SHOULD CALL 911 BECAUSE THERE IS A BODY
7 THERE.
8 Q. NOW, DID YOU GO ANYWHERE NEAR THE BODY?
9 A. NOT ANY FARTHER THAN THE SIDEWALK.
10 Q. SO YOU STAYED ON THE SIDEWALK?
11 A. YEAH.
12 Q. YOU DID NOT WALK UP THE PATH AT ALL?
13 A. NO.
14 Q. DID THE DOG GET NEAR TO THE BODY?
15 A. NO. EVEN HE DIDN'T WANT TO.
16 I MEAN, HE JUST STAYED THERE.
17 Q. HE STAYED BY YOU?
18 A. (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
19 Q. IS THAT "YES"?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. DID YOU SEE THE POLICE ARRIVE?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. DID ANYONE WALK UP TO THE BODIES OR ANYWHERE
24 NEAR THE BODIES BEFORE THE POLICE ARRIVED?
25 A. NO; NO.
26 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY OTHER BODIES LYING THERE OTHER
27 THAN THAT OF THE WOMAN?
28 A. NO; ONLY THE WOMAN.
177
1 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
2 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
3 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
4 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
5 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
6
7 (SHORT PAUSE.)
8
9 MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY.
10 I HAVE ONE FURTHER QUESTION.
11 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU TOOK
12 THE DOG OUT FOR THE WALK?
13 A. WELL, IT WAS AROUND 2 MINUTES BEFORE OR 2
14 MINUTES AFTER 12.
15 Q. YOU GOT HOME AT WHAT TIME?
16 A. 11:40.
17 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE BUILDING, OUTSIDE OF
18 WHAT YOU SAW, WHERE THE WOMEN'S BODY WAS LYING?
19 A. NO.
20 Q. SO YOU DON'T KNOW IF IT'S A CONDO OR SEVERAL
21 UNITS?
22 A. NO, I DIDN'T KNOW.
23 MS. CLARK: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
24 THE FOREPERSON: ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
25 TO BE SUBMITTED FROM THE GRAND JURORS?
26
27 (SHORT PAUSE.)
28
178
1 Q. BY MS. CLARK: WHERE WAS THE DRY BLOOD ON THE
2 DOG?
3 A. FOUR LEGS.
4 Q. ON HIS FOUR LEGS?
5 A. YEAH.
6 THE FOREPERSON: THERE BEING NO ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS,
7 MR. BOZTEPE, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY
8 TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
9 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
10 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
11 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
12 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
13 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
14 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
15 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
16 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
17 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
18 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
19 YOU.
20 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
21 THE WITNESS: YES.
22 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
23 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
24
25 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
26 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
27
28 MS. CLARK: THE PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO CALL BETTINA
179
1 RASMUSSEN.
2 THE FOREPERSON: BETTINA RASMUSSEN?
3 THE WITNESS: YES.
4 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
5 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
6 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
7 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
8 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
9 THE WITNESS: YES.
10 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
11 MISS RASMUSSEN, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR
12 FULL NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
13 THE WITNESS: B-E-T-T-I-N-A; R-A-S-M-U-S-S-E-N IS MY
14 SURNAME.
15 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
16 IF YOU WOULD SCOOT UP JUST A LITTLE BIT.
17 YOU WILL NEED TO RAISE YOUR VOICE SO YOU WILL
18 BE ADDRESSING THE GENTLEMEN IN THE TWO FAR CORNERS OF THE
19 HEARING ROOM.
20 THE WITNESS: OKAY.
21 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
22 YOU MAY PROCEED.
23
24 BETTINA RASMUSSEN,
25 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
26 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
27
28
180
1 E X A M I N A T I O N
2 BY MS. CLARK:
3 Q. MISS RASMUSSEN, ARE YOU RELATED TO SUKRU
4 BOZTEPE?
5 A. YEAH. HE'S MY HUSBAND.
6 Q. DID YOU JUST SEE HIM LEAVE THE GRAND JURY ROOM
7 BEFORE YOU CAME IN NOW?
8 A. YEAH.
9 Q. WERE YOU WITH HIM ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12,
10 1994?
11 A. YEAH.
12 Q. WHEN YOU -- WERE YOU WITH HIM WHEN YOU WENT FOR
13 A WALK WITH THE DOG?
14 A. YEAH.
15 Q. AND DO YOU RECALL BEING WITH HIM WHEN YOU SAW
16 THE WOMAN'S BODY?
17 A. YEAH.
18 Q. ON THAT NIGHT, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THE
19 LIGHTING WAS LIKE AT THAT APARTMENT.
20 A. IT WAS VERY DARK.
21 THE ONLY LIGHTING THERE WAS THE STREET LIGHT.
22 IT WAS LIKE THIS YELLOW COLOR.
23 SEE, THE BUSHES AROUND THERE, IT WAS COMPLETELY
24 DARK, BECAUSE THERE WERE TREES AND BUSHES AROUND AND THERE
25 WAS NO LIGHT.
26 Q. THERE WAS NO LIGHT ON THE BUILDING IN FRONT OF
27 WHICH THE WOMAN'S BODY WAS LYING?
28 A. NO.
181
1 Q. HAVE YOU WALKED BY THAT HOUSE, THAT BUILDING,
2 SINCE THAT NIGHT?
3 A. WE HAVE BEEN DRIVING BY, YES.
4 Q. HAVE YOU DONE THAT AT NIGHT?
5 A. YEAH.
6 Q. HAVE YOU SEEN A LIGHT THAT SHINES ON THE FRONT
7 OF THAT BUILDING SINCE THAT NIGHT?
8 A. THERE WAS -- LATER THERE WAS LIGHT AROUND THE
9 GATE, ACTUALLY IN BETWEEN WHERE THE PEOPLE WERE FOUND, AND
10 A BRIGHT LIGHT WHICH WASN'T THERE THAT NIGHT.
11 Q. SO THERE WAS A BRIGHT LIGHT ON THE GATE IN
12 BETWEEN WHERE THE TWO VICTIMS WERE FOUND ON THE NIGHTS
13 SINCE THAT NIGHT?
14 A. YEAH.
15 Q. BUT IT WAS NOT ON ON THE NIGHT YOU FOUND THE
16 BODIES.
17 A. NO.
18 MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY.
19 MAY I HAVE A MOMENT?
20 THE FOREPERSON: YOU MAY DO SO.
21
22 (SHORT PAUSE.)
23
24 Q. BY MS. CLARK: THE LOCATION YOU ARE DESCRIBING
25 WHERE YOU HAVE SINCE THAT NIGHT SEEN THE LIGHT SHINING,
26 THAT'S AT THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING?
27 A. THERE'S A KIND OF WALL AND THEN JUST A GATE
28 THAT YOU CAN OPEN UP AND THE LIGHT IS JUST AROUND THE GATE
182
1 ON THE WALL.
2 Q. IS IT ACTUALLY ON THE GATE?
3 A. I DIDN'T GET THAT CLOSE. I'M ONLY DRIVING BY
4 IN THE CAR. BUT IT WAS MAKING THE AREA BRIGHT AND MAYBE
5 BEHIND.
6 BUT ALL THIS AREA WAS LIGHTING UP, BUT IT
7 WASN'T THAT NIGHT.
8 THE POLICE CAME LATER WITH THE FLASHLIGHT. AND
9 WE WOULD NEED A LIGHT TO SEE LATER.
10 Q. IT WAS DARK IN THE AREA WHERE YOU FOUND HER,
11 THE VICTIM?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. AND THAT LIGHT WAS NOT SHINING?
14 A. YEAH.
15 Q. THE WHOLE AREA SINCE THAT BODY WAS FOUND, THE
16 WHOLE AREA HAS BEEN BRIGHTLY LIT?
17 A. YEAH.
18 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THE AREA WAS LIT ON NIGHTS
19 BEFORE THE BODY WAS FOUND?
20 A. I NEVER REALLY CARED ABOUT THIS AREA. I NEVER
21 WALKED BY, ALWAYS JUST DRIVING BY.
22 THE ONLY REASON WE CAME DOWN WAS BECAUSE OF THE
23 DOG.
24 Q. SO YOU HAD NO OCCASION TO LOOK OR NOTICE IT
25 BEFORE?
26 A. NO.
27 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
28 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
183
1 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
2 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
3 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
4
5 (SHORT PAUSE.)
6
7 THE FOREPERSON: THERE BEING NO ADDITIONAL
8 QUESTIONS, MISS RASMUSSEN, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN
9 VERY CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
10 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
11 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
12 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
13 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
14 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
15 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
16 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
17 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
18 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
19 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
20 YOU.
21 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
22 THE WITNESS: YEAH.
23 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
24 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
25
26 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
27 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
28
184
1 MS. CLARK: PEOPLE WILL CALL MR. DE BELLO.
2 THE FOREPERSON: JOHN DE BELLO?
3 THE WITNESS: YES.
4 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
5 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
6 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
7 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
8 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
9 THE WITNESS: I DO.
10 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
11 MR. DE BELLO, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
12 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
13 THE WITNESS: JOHN ANTHONY DE BELLO.
14 LAST NAME IS D-E CAPITAL B-E-L-L-O.
15
16 JOHN ANTHONY DE BELLO,
17 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
18 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
19
20 E X A M I N A T I O N
21 BY MR. CONN:
22 Q. SIR, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOUR OCCUPATION IS.
23 A. I'M GENERAL MANAGER OF MEZZALUNA RESTAURANT.
24 Q. WHERE IS THAT LOCATED?
25 A. 11750 SAN VICENTE BOULEVARD, BRENTWOOD.
26 Q. HOW FAR IS THAT FROM THE INTERSECTION OF
27 SAN VICENTE AND BUNDY?
28 A. IT'S ROUGHLY ABOUT A HALF-MILE.
185
1 MR. CONN: I HAVE TWO PHOTOGRAPHS WHICH I WOULD LIKE
2 TO MARK AT THIS TIME. ACTUALLY, THEY ARE D.M.V.
3 PRINTOUTS.
4 THE FIRST ONE DEPICTS A MAN.
5 IF THAT MAY BE MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 24 FOR
6 IDENTIFICATION.
7 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 24.)
8 MR. CONN: AND THE SECOND ONE DEPICTS A WOMAN.
9 IF THAT MAY BE MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 25 FOR
10 IDENTIFICATION.
11 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
12 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 25.)
13 Q. BY MR. CONN: SIR, AT THIS TIME I WOULD LIKE
14 TO SHOW YOU TWO PHOTOSGRAPHS WHICH I HAVE JUST MARKED AS 24
15 AND 25 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
16 DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION FIRST TO 24 FOR
17 IDENTIFICATION, THE PHOTOGRAPH OF THE MAN.
18 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE MAN THAT IS DEPICTED IN
19 THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
20 A. YES, I DO.
21 Q. WHAT IS THAT MAN'S NAME?
22 A. RONALD GOLDMAN.
23 Q. WHERE DO YOU KNOW THAT MAN FROM?
24 A. HE WAS MY EMPLOYEE AT MEZZALUNA RESTAURANT.
25 HE WAS A WAITER.
26 I HIRED HIM 4 MONTHS AGO.
27 Q. DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE WOMAN WHOSE
28 PHOTO APPEARS IN PEOPLE'S 25 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
186
1 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT WOMAN?
2 A. YES, I DO.
3 Q. WHERE DO YOU KNOW HER FROM?
4 A. DINING AT THE RESTAURANT.
5 SHE WAS A STEADY CUSTOMER.
6 Q. DID YOU EVER SPEAK TO HER ON OCCASION?
7 A. ON OCCASION I WOULD SAY, "HELLO. HOW'S
8 EVERYTHING? HOW IS YOUR DINNER THIS EVENING? IS EVERYBODY
9 ENJOYING THEMSELVES?"
10 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT HER NAME WAS?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. WHAT WAS HER NAME?
13 A. NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.
14 Q. DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO JUNE 12, 1994, WERE
15 YOU WORKING ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY?
16 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
17 Q. WAS MR. GOLDMAN ALSO WORKING THAT DAY?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. HOW MANY WAITERS DID YOU HAVE AT THE RESTAURANT
20 THAT EVENING?
21 A. I HAD THREE WAITERS ON THAT EVENING.
22 Q. WOULD THAT MEAN TWO IN ADDITION TO MR. GOLDMAN?
23 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
24 Q. WHAT WERE THE NAMES OF THE OTHER TWO THAT WERE
25 WORKING THAT EVENING?
26 A. TIA SMITH AND HEATHER NYGREN.
27 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHEN YOU GOT TO THE RESTAURANT
28 THAT DAY?
187
1 A. I BELIEVE IT WAS 6:45 EXACTLY.
2 Q. WOULD THAT BE P.M.?
3 A. P.M.
4 Q. DID YOU SEE NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON THAT EVENING?
5 A. YES, I DID.
6 Q. WAS SHE THERE WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE
7 RESTAURANT?
8 A. YES, SHE WAS.
9 Q. DID YOU SEE THE PARTY THAT SHE WAS WITH?
10 A. YES, I DID.
11 Q. DO YOU RECALL THE SIZE OF THE PARTY THAT SHE
12 WAS WITH?
13 A. IT WAS A PARTY OF TEN PEOPLE.
14 Q. WHO WAS THE WAITER THAT WAS ASSIGNED TO HER
15 PARTY OF TEN THAT EVENING?
16 A. TIA SMITH.
17 Q. WHERE WAS RON ASSIGNED THAT EVENING?
18 A. RON WAS ASSIGNED TO THE FRONT OF THE RESTAURANT
19 SECTION.
20 WE SPLIT THE RESTAURANT IN THREE SECTIONS.
21 Q. NOW, DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME -- DID RON WAIT ON
22 THE TABLE IN WHICH SHE AND HER PARTY WERE SEATED THAT
23 EVENING?
24 A. NO, HE DID NOT.
25 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME RON LEFT -- LET ME ASK
26 YOU THIS FIRST:
27 DO THE WAITERS CLOCK OUT AT THE END OF AN
28 EVENING?
188
1 A. YES, THEY DO.
2 IT'S MANDATORY.
3 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME RON CLOCKED OUT THAT
4 EVENING?
5 A. YES, I DO.
6 HE INITIALLED HIS TIME CARD AT 9:33 P.M.
7 Q. DID RON TELL YOU BEFORE HE LEFT WHERE HE WAS
8 GOING?
9 A. HE DIDN'T TELL ME WHERE HE WAS GOING; I KNEW
10 WHERE HE WAS GOING FROM MY BAR MANAGER.
11 Q. AFTER HE CLOCKED OUT, DID HE REMAIN FOR AWHILE
12 AFTER THAT?
13 A. YES, HE DID.
14 Q. AND APPROXIMATELY HOW LONG DID HE REMAIN AFTER
15 9:33?
16 A. APPROXIMATELY ABOUT 15 TO 20 MINUTES.
17 Q. WHAT WAS HE DOING DURING THAT TIME AFTER HE
18 CLOCKED OUT?
19 A. HE WAS SPEAKING WITH ME.
20 Q. AFTER SPEAKING TO YOU, DID HE SPEAK TO ANY OF
21 THE OTHER PEOPLE BEFORE HE LEFT?
22 A. OTHER WAITERS, THE FELLOW EMPLOYEES.
23 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE RON GOLDMAN LIVED?
24 A. HE LIVED A FEW BLOCKS FROM THE RESTAURANT.
25 Q. HAD YOU EVER BEEN TO HIS RESTAURANT?
26 A. HIS HOME?
27 Q. I'M SORRY; HIS HOME.
28 A. NO.
189
1 Q. DID YOU HAPPEN TO SEE A PAIR OF GLASSES THAT
2 EVENING THAT WAS DISCUSSED?
3 A. YES, I DID.
4 Q. AND WHERE DID YOU SEE THE GLASSES?
5 A. I SAW MY BAR MANAGER PICKING THEM UP OFF THE
6 SIDEWALK IN FRONT OF THE RESTAURANT.
7 Q. AND WHO WAS THE BAR MANAGER?
8 A. KAREN CRAWFORD.
9 Q. DID YOU SEE WHAT SHE DID WITH THE GLASSES AFTER
10 SHE PICKED THEM UP?
11 A. NO, I DIDN'T.
12 MS. CLARK: THAT'S ALL THE QUESTIONS WE HAVE AT THIS
13 TIME.
14 THE FOREPERSON: DO ANY MEMBERS --
15 MR. CONN: I'M SORRY.
16 I DO HAVE ONE ADDITIONAL QUESTION.
17 Q. DO THE WAITERS WEAR A PARTICULAR TYPE OF
18 UNIFORM?
19 A. YES, THEY DO.
20 Q. AND WHAT TYPE OF UNIFORM IS THAT?
21 A. IT WOULD BE BLACK PANTS, DRESS PANTS OR BLACK
22 JEANS, WHITE SHIRT, TIE AND A VEST, A MULTI-COLORED VEST OR
23 ANY COLOR THAT THEY HAVE AVAILABLE.
24 Q. AND WAS RON WEARING THAT UNIFORM, THAT TYPE OF
25 UNIFORM THAT EVENING?
26 A. YES, HE WAS.
27 Q. WAS HE WEARING THAT UNIFORM AT THE TIME THAT HE
28 LEFT THE RESTAURANT?
190
1 A. YES, HE WAS.
2 Q. WERE THERE ANY CHILDREN INCLUDED IN THE PARTY
3 OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S?
4 A. YES, THERE WAS.
5 THERE WERE HER TWO CHILDREN AND TWO FRIENDS OF
6 THEIRS, AS I RECALL.
7 Q. DID YOU SEE RON GOLDMAN ACTUALLY EXIT THE
8 RESTAURANT?
9 A. NO, I DID NOT.
10 Q. AT THE MOMENT THAT YOU LAST SAW HIM, WHERE WAS
11 HE AND WHERE WAS HE HEADED?
12 A. WELL, HE WAS SPEAKING WITH ME BEHIND THE BAR.
13 THAT'S THE LAST TIME I SAW HIM.
14 Q. YOU DIDN'T SEE HIM AGAIN AFTER THAT?
15 A. NO, I DID NOT.
16 Q. IN ORDER TO LEAVE THE RESTAURANT, OTHER THAN
17 THE FRONT ENTRANCE, IS THERE A SIDE EXIT?
18 A. YES, THERE IS.
19 Q. TO USE THAT SIDE EXIT, DO YOU HAVE TO GO BY THE
20 BAR AREA TO GET OUT THAT WAY?
21 A. YES, YOU DO.
22 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE RON NORMALLY PARKED HIS CAR?
23 A. WELL, IT'S RANDOM PARKING IN BRENTWOOD.
24 SO USUALLY IT WOULD BE CLOSEST TO THE
25 RESTAURANT THAT YOU COULD FIND A SPACE, METERED PARKING
26 AREA OR SOMEWHERE ON ADJACENT STREETS.
27 Q. AT THE TIME THAT YOU LAST SAW RON GOLDMAN, WAS
28 HE CARRYING ANYTHING?
191
1 A. NO. HE HAD NOTHING IN HIS HANDS.
2 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHAT KIND OF CAR RON WAS DRIVING
3 THAT EVENING?
4 A. A SMALL SUBCOMPACT CAR.
5 I BELIEVE IT WAS RED. I'M NOT SURE.
6 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME THE DINNER PARTY WAS
7 OVER, OR THE TIME THAT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON LEFT?
8 A. IT WAS ABOUT 8:30, 8:40 P.M.
9 MR. CONN: I BELIEVE THAT'S ALL THE QUESTIONS I HAVE.
10 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
11 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
12 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
13 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
14
15 (SHORT PAUSE.)
16
17 THE FOREPERSON: THERE BEING NO FURTHER QUESTIONS
18 MR. DE BELLO, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY
19 CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
20 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
21 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
22 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
23 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
24 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
25 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
26 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
27 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
28 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
192
1 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
2 YOU.
3 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
4 THE WITNESS: YES.
5 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
6 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
7 THE WITNESS: YOU ARE WELCOME.
8
9 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
10 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
11
12 THE FOREPERSON: YOU MAY PROCEED.
13 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
14 THE PEOPLE WOULD CALL MR. JOSE CAMACHO.
15 THE FOREPERSON: JOSE CAMACHO?
16 THE WITNESS: YES.
17 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
18 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
19 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
20 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
21 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
22 THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM.
23 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
24 MR. CAMACHO, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
25 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
26 THE WITNESS: JOSE, J-O-S-E, LAST NAME C-A-M-A-C-H-O,
27 CAMACHO.
28 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
193
1 YOU MAY PROCEED.
2
3 JOSE CAMACHO,
4 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
5 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
6
7 E X A M I N A T I O N
8 BY MR. CONN:
9 Q. SIR, CAN YOU TELL US WHERE IT IS THAT YOU WORK.
10 A. I WORK AT 306 -- EXCUSE ME -- 310 SOUTH
11 BROADWAY IN DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES.
12 Q. WHAT TYPE OF BUSINESS IS THAT?
13 A. IT'S A CUTLERY SHOP.
14 WE SELL KNIVES, SCISSORS, CLIPPERS, DRIERS,
15 DIFFERENT ITEMS.
16 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN WORKING THERE AT THAT
17 LOCATION?
18 A. I HAVE BEEN THERE FOR 22 YEARS.
19 Q. WHAT IS YOUR JOB THERE?
20 A. I'M A SALESMAN.
21 Q. WHO IS THE OWNER OF THE BUSINESS?
22 A. SIR RICHARD WATTENBERG AND ALLEN WATTENBERG.
23 Q. HOW DO YOU SPELL THAT LAST NAME?
24 A. W-A-T-T-E-N-B-E-R-G, WATTENBERG.
25 Q. THAT'S RICHARD AND ALLEN.
26 A. YES.
27 Q. DID BOTH OF THOSE MEN ALSO WORK THERE?
28 A. YES.
194
1 Q. IN ADDITION TO YOURSELF AND RICHARD AND ALLEN,
2 ARE THERE ALSO OTHER SALESMEN WHO WORK THERE?
3 A. YEAH. WE ARE ALL TOGETHER.
4 WE ARE SEVEN SALESMEN.
5 Q. NOW, I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH.
6 I WILL SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH MARKED PEOPLE'S 23
7 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
8 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE MAN WHO IS SHOWN IN THAT
9 PHOTOGRAPH?
10 A. YES, I DO.
11 Q. WHO IS THAT MAN THAT YOU SEE BEFORE YOU.
12 A. IT'S O.J. SIMPSON.
13 Q. HAVE YOU MET O.J. SIMPSON IN THE PAST?
14 A. NO.
15 I JUST MET HIM THAT TIME.
16 Q. YOU SAY YOU JUST MET HIM "THAT TIME."
17 WHAT IS IT THAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO.
18 A. THE DAY THAT THEY WERE FILMING A MOVIE OR
19 COMMERCIAL THERE AT THE STORE.
20 Q. WERE THEY FILMING THE MOVIE OR THE COMMERCIAL
21 INSIDE THE STORE ITSELF?
22 A. NO; OUTSIDE ON THE SIDEWALK.
23 Q. AND APPROXIMATELY WHEN WAS THIS?
24 A. OH, THE DATE I DON'T REMEMBER. BUT IT'S LIKE
25 6, 7 WEEKS AGO OR 2 MONTHS.
26 I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY.
27 Q. ON THAT OCCASION, DID YOU HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY
28 TO MEET HIM THAT DAY?
195
1 A. YEAH.
2 HE CAME INTO THE STORE AND HE ASKED FOR KNIVES,
3 YOU KNOW, TO SHOW HIM SOME KNIVES.
4 Q. DID HE ASK FOR ANY PARTICULAR TYPE OF KNIFE?
5 A. NO, SIR.
6 Q. DID HE -- WHAT DO YOU RECALL ABOUT THE
7 CONVERSATION, AS TO HOW IT WENT.
8 AFTER HE CAME IN THE DOOR, DID YOU BEGIN TO
9 SPEAK OR DID ENGINE TO SPEAK?
10 A. NO.
11 HE JUST CAME INTO THE STORE AND I JUST ASKED
12 HIM IF HE NEEDS SOME HELP.
13 AND HE JUST WANTED TO SEE SOME KNIVES. THAT'S
14 ALL.
15 Q. DID YOU SHOW HIM SOME KNIVES?
16 A. YES, I DID.
17 Q. DID HE DESCRIBE ANY PARTICULAR KNIFE THAT HE
18 WAS LOOKING FOR?
19 A. NO, NOTHING SPECIAL.
20 Q. HOW DID YOU DECIDE WHAT KNIFE TO SHOW HIM THEN?
21 A. HE ASKED ME FOR SOME PARTICULAR KNIFE THAT I
22 SHOWED HIM, AND HE LIKED IT, AND HE SAID HE WILL COME BACK
23 LATER TO BUY IT BECAUSE AT THAT TIME HE DIDN'T HAVE NO
24 MONEY.
25 SO HE LEFT, AND THEN HE CAME BACK ABOUT AN HOUR
26 OR 45 MINUTES LATER.
27 Q. NOW, IN ORDER TO SHOW HIM THAT KNIFE THAT YOU
28 SAID HE LIKED, DID HE POINT TO IT OR DID YOU POINT TO IT,
196
1 OR HOW DID YOU SELECT UPON -- HOW DID HE SELECT THAT
2 KNIFE?
3 A. WELL, WHEN HE TOLD ME THAT HE WAS GOING TO COME
4 BACK, ON HIS WAY OUT, HE SAW THE OTHER KNIVES THAT WE HAD
5 IN THE ENTRANCE TO THE STORE AND I THINK HE LIKED THAT ONE.
6 Q. SO ON THE WAY OUT HE POINTED TO A KNIFE?
7 A. YEAH.
8 Q. AND SAID THERE WAS SOMETHING THERE THAT HE
9 LIKED?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. AND HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO BE BACK?
12 A. YEAH, HE TOLD ME THAT.
13 Q. AND HOW LONG -- DID HE RETURN LATER?
14 A. YEAH. HE CAME BACK, LIKE I SAY.
15 LIKE 45 MINUTES OR AN HOUR LATER, HE CAME BACK.
16 Q. AND WHEN HE CAME BACK, DID HE PURCHASE A KNIFE?
17 A. YES, HE DID.
18 Q. WHAT TYPE OF KNIFE WAS THAT THAT HE PURCHASED?
19 A. IT'S A FOLDING KNIFE. YOU KNOW, IT CLOSES.
20 IT'S CALLED A STILETTO KNIFE.
21 Q. NOW, SOME TIME LATER DID THE POLICE SPEAK TO
22 YOU ABOUT THIS SALE THAT YOU MADE TO HIM?
23 A. YEAH.
24 THEY CAME BACK ABOUT -- WELL, LAST WEEK, I
25 THINK, TUESDAY OR WEDNESDAY.
26 Q. AND DID YOU TELL THE POLICE ABOUT THE KNIFE
27 THAT YOU HAD SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON?
28 A. YEAH.
197
1 THEY ASKED WHAT KIND OF A KNIFE THAT HE
2 PURCHASED, AND I TOLD THEM WHAT KIND.
3 Q. DID YOU REMEMBER WHAT KIND HE HAD PURCHASED
4 FROM YOU?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AND DID YOU ALSO MAKE A SALE TO THE POLICE?
7 A. YES. I SOLD THEM A KNIFE IDENTICAL OR SIMILAR
8 TO IT.
9 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "SIMILAR," ARE YOU SAYING THE
10 SAME KIND OF KNIFE?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. THE SAME SIZE THAT YOU SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON?
13 A. YEAH, I'D SAY IT WAS THE SAME SIZE.
14 Q. I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU ANOTHER SERIES OF
15 PHOTOGRAPHS THAT HAVE BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 21 FOR
16 IDENTIFICATION.
17 DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE PHOTO EXHIBIT
18 WHICH I HAVE PLACED ON THE BOARD, PEOPLE'S 21, WHICH SHOWS
19 FOUR PICTURES OF A KNIFE.
20 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE KNIFE THAT IS SHOWN IN
21 THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. IS THAT THE SAME TYPE OF KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD TO
24 THE POLICE OFFICERS IN THIS CASE?
25 A. YES, IT'S THE SAME ONE.
26 Q. IS THAT ALSO IDENTICAL IN SIZE AND APPEARANCE
27 TO THE KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON SOME TIME AGO?
28 A. YOU KNOW, WE SELL TWO SIZES; RIGHT? BUT IT
198
1 LOOKS IDENTICAL.
2 THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SMALLER ONE IS
3 LIKE 2 INCHES.
4 I CANNOT SAY EXACTLY WHICH ONE HE GOT, THE REAL
5 BIG ONE OR THE SMALL ONE. BUT, LIKE I SAY, IT'S THE SAME
6 KNIFE.
7 Q. LET ME GO THROUGH THAT.
8 YOU SELL THIS PARTICULAR KNIFE. LET ME SEE IF
9 THERE IS A NAME FOR IT.
10 ON THE KNIFE IT SAYS THE WORD "STILETTO," AND
11 UNDERNEATH THE WORD "STILETTO" IT SAYS THE WORD
12 "GERMANY."
13 A. YES.
14 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THIS KNIFE?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. IS THIS A KNIFE THAT YOU HAVE CARRIED AT YOUR
17 STORE FOR A LONG TIME?
18 A. YEAH, FOR A LONG TIME.
19 Q. NOW, WHEN YOU SAY THAT THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT
20 KINDS OF KNIFE OF THE SAME TYPE, ARE YOU REFERRING TO TWO
21 KNIVES THAT BOTH SAY, "STILETTO, GERMANY" ON THEM?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. AND THEY ARE DIFFERENT SIZES?
24 A. LIKE I SAY, LIKE 2 INCHES IS THE DIFFERENCE.
25 Q. AND WHEN YOU SAY, "2 INCHES," DOES THAT MEAN
26 2 INCHES IN TERMS OF THE OVERALL LENGTH OF THE KNIFE?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. SO IF YOU WERE TO COMPARE BOTH KNIVES, WOULD
199
1 BOTH THE BLADE AND THE HANDLE BE A LITTLE BIT SHORTER ON
2 ONE KNIFE, OR WOULD, FOR EXAMPLE, THE BLADES BE THE SAME ON
3 BOTH KNIVES OR THE HANDLES BE THE SAME ON BOTH KNIVES?
4 A. NO. IT WOULD BE SMALLER IN OVERALL LENGTH.
5 Q. SO BECAUSE IT HAS -- SINCE ONE IS 2 INCHES
6 SHORTER, BOTH THE HANDLE --
7 A. THE HANDLE HAS TO BE SMALLER, TOO.
8 Q. AND THE BLADE IS GOING TO BE A LITTLE BIT
9 SMALLER?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. NOW, WHEN THE POLICE CAME AND ASKED YOU ABOUT
12 THE TYPE OF KNIFE THAT YOU PURCHASED -- OR THAT YOU SOLD
13 THAT DAY, DID THEY QUESTION YOU CONCERNING THE SIZE OF THE
14 KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. DID THEY ASK YOU TO TRY TO REMEMBER, AS BEST
17 YOU COULD, AS TO THE SIZE THAT YOU SOLD MR. SIMPSON?
18 A. YES, THEY DID.
19 Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR BELIEF AT THAT TIME AS TO THE
20 SIZE THAT YOU SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON?
21 WAS IT YOUR BELIEF AT THE TIME THAT YOU SOLD
22 HIM THE SMALLER OF THE TWO KNIVES OR THE LARGER OF THE TWO
23 KNIVES?
24 A. NO. THE LARGER WOULD BE -- THE LARGEST SIZE,
25 BECAUSE HE LIKED THE SIZE.
26 Q. YOU RECALL HIM LIKING THE SIZE?
27 A. YEAH.
28 Q. DO YOU KNOW IF YOU SHOWED HIM BOTH SIZES, OR
200
1 DID YOU JUST SHOW HIM ONE SIZE?
2 A. NO, I SHOWED HIM BOTH SIZES.
3 Q. WHEN YOU SHOWED HIM BOTH SIZES, DID YOU SHOW
4 HIM BOTH SIZES AT THE SAME TIME?
5 A. ONE AFTER THE OTHER, YEAH.
6 Q. AND DO YOU RECALL HIM SELECTING THE LARGER
7 KNIFE?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. IS THAT YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION TODAY, THAT HE
10 SELECTED THE LARGER KNIFE?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. NOW, THAT KNIFE THAT IS SHOWN ON THE -- IN THE
13 PHOTOGRAPHS THERE, IN PEOPLE'S 21, CAN YOU SEE THE RULER
14 THAT IS HELD NEXT TO THE KNIFE?
15 A. YEAH.
16 Q. DOES THAT APPEAR TO YOU TO BE THE LARGER KNIFE
17 OF THE TWO TYPES OF KNIVES THAT IS AVAILABLE?
18 A. THAT ONE LOOKS LIKE THE SMALLER SIZE.
19 Q. WELL, WHEN YOU SOLD THE KNIFE TO THE POLICE,
20 DID THE POLICE DISCUSS WITH YOU WHETHER OR NOT -- WELL, DID
21 YOU DISCUSS WITH THE POLICE THE FACT THAT THERE ARE TWO
22 KINDS OF THE SAME KIND OF KNIFE?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER YOU TOLD THE POLICE THAT
25 YOU SOLD THE LARGER OF THE TWO KNIVES?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. DID THE POLICE ASK YOU TO SELL THEM THE SAME
28 TYPE OF KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON?
201
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND DID YOU SELL THEM --
3 A. YES.
4 Q. -- THE SAME TYPE OF KNIFE THAT YOU RECALL
5 SELLING TO MR. SIMPSON?
6 A. TO THE BEST THAT I REMEMBER, YES.
7 Q. AND TODAY, AS YOU LOOK BACK ON THAT SALE, IS IT
8 YOUR RECOLLECTION AT THIS TIME THAT THE KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD
9 TO MR. SIMPSON WAS THE LARGER OF THE TWO KNIVES?
10 A. THAT'S RIGHT; I BELIEVE I SOLD HIM THE BIG
11 ONE.
12 LIKE I SAY, IT'S HARD TO REMEMBER, YOU KNOW.
13 Q. IT'S HARD TO REMEMBER WHAT?
14 A. I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
15 I JUST SOLD THE KNIFE.
16 Q. OKAY.
17 BUT WHEN -- I JUST WANTED YOU TO BE SURE ABOUT
18 WHAT YOU TESTIFIED TO HERE TODAY.
19 IF THERE IS SOMETHING YOU ARE NOT SURE ABOUT,
20 TELL US YOU ARE NOT SURE ABOUT IT.
21 DO YOU RECALL SELLING A KNIFE TO MR. SIMPSON?
22 A. YES, I DID, SIR.
23 Q. DO YOU RECALL SELLING A KNIFE TO THE POLICE?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. ARE YOU SURE THAT THE KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD TO
26 THE POLICE WAS THE SAME TYPE OF KNIFE THAT YOU SOLD TO
27 MR. SIMPSON?
28 A. YES. THAT'S WHAT I REMEMBER.
202
1 Q. NOW, AT THE TIME THAT YOU MADE THIS SALE, WERE
2 OTHER MEMBERS OF YOUR STORE ALSO INVOLVED IN THE SALE?
3 A. AT FIRST, I WAITED ON HIM. AND THEN ALLEN CAME
4 IN AND START TALKING TO HIM.
5 AND THEN HE ASKED IF WE CAN SHARPEN THE KNIFE.
6 SO WE DID, YOU KNOW.
7 Q. THE KNIFE THAT WAS SOLD TO HIM?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. WHO SHARPENED THAT KNIFE FOR HIM?
10 A. ALLEN.
11 Q. ALLEN?
12 A. YEAH, MY BOSS.
13 Q. WAS THE KNIFE SHARPENED BEFORE OR AFTER THE
14 SALE?
15 A. ONCE -- WELL, I WENT TO THE REGISTER, YOU KNOW,
16 TO RING THE SALE, AND THEN ALLEN TOOK THE KNIFE BACK TO THE
17 SHOP TO SHARPEN IT.
18 Q. AND WERE ANY OF THE SALESMEN ALSO INVOLVED IN
19 SEEING THIS KNIFE THAT WAS SOLD TO MR. SIMPSON BESIDES
20 YOURSELF AND ALLEN?
21 A. RICHARD.
22 Q. ALL RIGHT.
23 A. BUT RICHARD, YOU KNOW, HE WAS JUST TALKING TO
24 HIM. HE DIDN'T --
25 Q. I'M SORRY.
26 A. RICHARD WAS JUST TALKING TO HIM.
27 HE DIDN'T -- YOU KNOW, HE DIDN'T HAVE NOTHING
28 TO DO WITH THE SALE.
203
1 Q. OKAY.
2 NOW, THESE TWO KNIVES THAT ARE SOLD, ARE THEY
3 DIFFERENT PRICES?
4 A. YEAH.
5 THE BIG ONE IS $74, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
6 Q. AND THE SMALL ONE?
7 A. I THINK THE SMALL ONE IS $59.
8 Q. AND WHEN YOU MAKE A SALE, DO YOU GIVE RECEIPTS
9 TO THE CUSTOMER?
10 A. YEAH, WE DO GIVE THE RECEIPTS.
11 Q. DO YOU ALSO KEEP A COPY OF THE RECEIPT FOR
12 YOURSELF?
13 A. NOT REALLY, SIR, UNLESS THEY BUY LARGE
14 QUANTITIES. THEN WE MAKE A SPECIAL RECEIPT.
15 BUT IF IT'S JUST OUR REGULAR SALE, WE JUST GIVE
16 THEM THE REGISTER TAPE.
17 Q. BUT SALES ARE RUNG UP ON THE CASH REGISTER?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. WOULD A SALE FOR THAT DAY REFLECT THE AMOUNT OF
20 PURCHASES THAT WERE MADE BY PEOPLE THAT DAY?
21 A. YEAH.
22 Q. THANK YOU.
23 310 SOUTH BROADWAY, IS THAT THE BRADBURY
24 BUILDING?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. THE DAY THAT MR. SIMPSON PURCHASED THE KNIFE,
27 WAS THAT THE SAME DAY THAT THE FILMING WAS TAKING PLACE
28 OUTSIDE?
204
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND YOU ARE CERTAIN OF THAT?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. AND HOW DID MR. SIMPSON PAY FOR THE KNIFE?
5 A. HE PAID ME WITH A $100 BILL.
6 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
7 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
8 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
9 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
10 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
11
12 (SHORT PAUSE.)
13
14 Q. BY MR. CONN: DO YOU RECALL HOW MANY KNIVES
15 MR. SIMPSON LOOKED AT THAT DAY?
16 A. ONLY THREE KNIVES.
17 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT THE OTHER KNIVES LOOKED
18 LIKE?
19 A. WELL, THE OTHER ONE WAS A CASE KNIFE, A HUNTING
20 KNIFE, SMALLER VERSION.
21 Q. WHAT ELSE DID HE LOOK AT?
22 A. JUST THAT AND THE OTHER TWO, THIS BIG ONE AND
23 THE SMALLER ONE.
24 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "THIS BIG ONE," YOU ARE TALKING
25 ABOUT THE KNIFE THAT IS SHOWN IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS IN
26 PEOPLE'S 21.
27 IS THAT CORRECT?
28 A. YES.
205
1 Q. HE ALSO LOOKED AT THE SMALLER VERSION OF THAT?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. WHAT IS THE SIZE OF THAT HUNTING KNIFE, THAT
4 CASE KNIFE THAT HE LOOKED AT?
5 A. OH, THAT IS JUST ABOUT 7-1/2.
6 Q. THE OVERALL LENGTH?
7 A. YEAH, THE OVERALL LENGTH.
8 Q. WHEN THIS TYPE OF KNIFE IS OPENED UP, DOES THE
9 BLADE LOCK IN PLACE?
10 A. YES, IT LOCKS.
11 Q. BEFORE THE POLICE ARRIVED, DID YOU KNOW THAT
12 THE POLICE WERE COMING TO SPEAK TO YOU THAT DAY?
13 A. NO, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.
14 Q. WHEN MR. SIMPSON CAME INTO THE STORE TO
15 PURCHASE A KNIFE, EITHER THE FIRST OR THE SECOND TIME THAT
16 HE CAME INTO THE STORE, WAS HE WITH ANYONE?
17 A. NO, HE CAME BY HIMSELF.
18 BUT THERE WAS A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE WITH HIM,
19 BUT HE JUST WALKED IN ALONE.
20 Q. WHEN YOU SAY THAT THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE WITH
21 HIM, ARE YOU SAYING THAT THERE WERE PEOPLE --
22 A. WELL, WITH THE CREW, YOU KNOW, OTHER ACTORS OR
23 WHATEVER.
24 Q. SO OTHER PEOPLE FROM THE FILM CREW CAME IN?
25 A. YEAH.
26 Q. WAS THAT "YES"?
27 A. YES.
28 MR. CONN: I BELIEVE THOSE ARE ALL THE QUESTIONS WE
206
1 HAVE.
2 THE FOREPERSON: ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
3 TO BE SUBMITTED FROM THE GRAND JURORS?
4
5 (SHORT PAUSE.)
6
7 MR. CONN: I BELIEVE THOSE ARE ALL THE QUESTIONS.
8 THE FOREPERSON: THERE BEING NO ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS,
9 MR. CAMACHO, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY
10 TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
11 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
12 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
13 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
14 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
15 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
16 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
17 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
18 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
19 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
20 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
21 YOU.
22 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
23 THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM.
24 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
25 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
26 THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.
27
28 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
207
1 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
2
3 THE FOREPERSON: THE GRAND JURY IS IN RECESS FOR
4 10 MINUTES.
5 THE GRAND JURORS HAVE BEEN ADMONISHED REGARDING
6 DISCUSSION OF THE CASE.
7 PLEASE REMEMBER AND FOLLOW THE ADMONITION.
8
9 (MORNING RECESS TAKEN.)
10 -O0O-
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
208
1 THE FOREPERSON: THIS HEARING IS NOW IN SESSION.
2 MADAME SECRETARY?
3 THE SECRETARY: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THE SAME
4 TWENTY GRAND JURORS PRESENT AT THIS MORNING'S ROLL CALL ARE
5 NOW PRESENT.
6 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
7 YOU MAY PROCEED.
8 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
9 PEOPLE CALL KAREN CRAWFORD.
10 THE FOREPERSON: KAREN CRAWFORD?
11 THE WITNESS: YES.
12 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
13 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
14 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
15 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
16 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
17 THE WITNESS: YES.
18 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
19 MISS CRAWFORD, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
20 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
21 THE WITNESS: KAREN LEE CRAWFORD.
22 KAREN, K-A-R-E-N, LEE, L-E-E, CRAWFORD,
23 C-R-A-W-F-O-R-D.
24 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
25 IF YOU COULD RAISE YOUR VOICE JUST SO THE
26 GENTLEMEN IN THE TWO FAR CORNERS OF THE HEARING ROOM WILL
27 BE ABLE TO HEAR YOU.
28 YOU MAY PROCEED.
209
1 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
2
3 KAREN LEE CRAWFORD,
4 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
5 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
6
7 E X A M I N A T I O N
8 BY MS. CLARK:
9 Q. MISS CRAWFORD, CAN YOU PLEASE TELL THE JURY
10 WHAT YOU DO FOR A LIVING.
11 A. I WORK AT MEZZALUNA. I'M THE BAR MANAGER.
12 I BARTEND THREE NIGHTS A WEEK AND I MANAGE ON
13 SUNDAYS.
14 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN SO EMPLOYED?
15 A. I HAVE BEEN THERE FOR A YEAR.
16 Q. WERE YOU EMPLOYED IN THAT CAPACITY ON THE NIGHT
17 OF JUNE 12, 1994?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. AND WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE AT WORK?
20 A. I GOT INTO WORK AT 3:30 IN THE AFTERNOON.
21 Q. NOW, YOU WERE MANAGING ON THAT NIGHT, WERE YOU
22 NOT?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. THAT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS A SUNDAY?
25 A. IT WAS A SUNDAY, YES.
26 Q. DO YOU RECALL SEEING A PERSON NAMED NICOLE
27 SIMPSON COME TO YOUR RESTAURANT THAT NIGHT?
28 A. SHE DID.
210
1 Q. HAVE YOU SEEN HER THERE BEFORE?
2 A. I HAD SEEN HER THERE BEFORE.
3 Q. AND HAD YOU SPOKEN TO HER ON PRIOR OCCASIONS
4 WHEN SHE CAME TO THE RESTAURANT?
5 A. SORRY?
6 YES, JUST TO SAY, "HELLO. HOW ARE YOU?"
7 I NEVER SPOKE TO HER OTHER THAN JUST NICETIES,
8 GREETINGS.
9 Q. DO YOU RECALL ABOUT WHAT TIME SHE GOT THERE?
10 A. AROUND 6:30, I WOULD SAY.
11 I'M NOT POSITIVE.
12 Q. WAS SHE ALONE?
13 A. NO. SHE CAME WITH A LARGE GROUP OF PEOPLE.
14 Q. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY?
15 A. THERE WERE TEN OF THEM.
16 THE RESERVATION SAID, "TEN PEOPLE," AND THERE
17 WERE TEN THERE.
18 Q. DID THAT PARTY INCLUDE ADULTS AND CHILDREN?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHERE DID THEY SIT IN THE RESTAURANT?
21 A. SINCE THERE WAS A LARGE PARTY OF THEM, WE HAD
22 THEM SIT IN THE FRONT OF THE RESTAURANT WHERE WE HAD A LONG
23 TABLE SET UP FOR THEM.
24 THEY WERE RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE BAR, THE BAR
25 AREA.
26 Q. WERE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH SOMEONE BY THE NAME OF
27 RONALD GOLDMAN?
28 A. YES.
211
1 Q. HOW DID YOU KNOW HIM?
2 A. I KNEW HIM THROUGH WORK. HE HAD WORKED THERE
3 FOR A FEW MONTHS AND THAT'S THE REASON WHY. I WORKED WITH
4 HIM.
5 I WASN'T FRIENDS WITH HIM OUTSIDE OF WORK,
6 ALTHOUGH I WOULD CONSIDER HIM TO BE MY FRIEND.
7 Q. IN WHAT CAPACITY DID HE WORK THERE?
8 A. HE WAS A WAITER.
9 Q. DID HE WAIT ON NICOLE SIMPSON'S PARTY THAT
10 NIGHT?
11 A. NO, NOT THAT NIGHT.
12 Q. DO YOU RECALL SEEING THE PARTY NICOLE SIMPSON
13 WAS WITH LEAVE THE RESTAURANT?
14 A. I SAW THEM WALKING OUT THE DOOR.
15 I CAN'T BE POSITIVE WHAT TIME THEY LEFT, BUT I
16 DO REMEMBER SEEING THEM LEAVING.
17 I THINK, YOU KNOW, I TOLD THEM TO HAVE A NICE
18 EVENING.
19 Q. DO YOU RECALL APPROXIMATELY WHAT TIME THAT WAS?
20 A. IT WAS AROUND 8:30 OR 9.
21 I'M NOT POSITIVE.
22 Q. NICOLE LEFT WITH THEM?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. DO YOU HAPPEN TO RECALL WHAT NICOLE WAS WEARING
25 THAT NIGHT?
26 A. YES.
27 SHE WAS WEARING A BLACK HALTER DRESS.
28 Q. ARE YOU SURE?
212
1 A. IT WAS ABOVE THE KNEE, YEAH.
2 IT WAS A CASUAL DRESS.
3 Q. WHEN YOU SAY -- WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THE
4 LENGTH AS MID-THIGH?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. SHOWING YOU PHOTOGRAPHS THAT HAVE PREVIOUSLY
7 BEEN MARKED AS 24 AND 25.
8 CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE PEOPLE
9 DEPICTED IN THEM.
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WHO ARE THEY.
12 A. THAT'S RON, NICOLE --
13 Q. EXHIBIT 24 IS RON?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. AND EXHIBIT 25 IS NICOLE?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. NOW AFTER NICOLE AND HER PARTY LEFT AT
18 APPROXIMATELY 9:00 O'CLOCK P.M., DID YOU RECEIVE A PHONE
19 CALL?
20 A. I DID. I RECEIVED A PHONE CALL FROM A WOMAN --
21 Q. DON'T TELL ME ANYTHING SHE SAID. THAT'S
22 HEARSAY.
23 A. OKAY.
24 Q. THE VOICE OF THE WOMAN THAT YOU HEARD ON THE
25 PHONE, DID YOU RECOGNIZE THAT VOICE AS BELONGING TO SOMEONE
26 YOU HAD SPOKEN TO THAT EVENING?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. AND WHO WAS THAT?
213
1 A. IT WAS THE OLDER WOMAN IN THE PARTY.
2 Q. WITH NICOLE SIMPSON?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HER?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AFTER YOU HAD THAT CONVERSATION WITH HER, AT
7 SOME POINT IN THAT CONVERSATION DID YOU LEAVE THE PHONE?
8 A. YES, I DID.
9 Q. WHEN YOU DID SO, DID YOU HANG IT UP OR PUT IT
10 ON HOLD?
11 A. I PUT HER ON HOLD.
12 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?
13 A. I WENT LOOKING FOR A PAIR OF GLASSES SHE SAID
14 SHE HAD LOST.
15 Q. WHERE DID YOU GO AND DO THAT?
16 A. I LOOKED AROUND WHERE THEY HAD SAT, I ASKED THE
17 BUS BOYS IF THEY HAD FOUND ANY GLASSES, AND WE DIDN'T FIND
18 THEM IN THE RESTAURANT. THE BUS BOYS HADN'T SEEN THEM.
19 I KNEW WHERE THEY HAD GOTTEN OUT OF THEIR CAR.
20 I HAD NOTICED WHEN THEY GOT OUT BECAUSE THERE WAS A LARGE
21 GROUP OF THEM. SO I WENT OUTSIDE TO WHERE THEY HAD GOTTEN
22 OUT AND I FOUND THE GLASSES.
23 Q. WHERE DID YOU FIND THEM?
24 A. THEY WERE A FEW INCHES AWAY FROM THE GUTTER.
25 THEY WERE ON THE BLACKTOP, NOT ACTUALLY IN THE
26 GUTTER.
27 I FOUND THEM RIGHT THERE WHERE THEY HAD GOTTEN
28 OUT.
214
1 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER YOU FOUND THEM?
2 A. THEY WERE MUDDY. I WIPED THE MUD OFF OF THEM.
3 I TOLD HER THAT I HAD FOUND THE GLASSES AND I
4 ASKED HER IF SHE WOULD BE PICKING THEM UP THAT NIGHT.
5 Q. DID YOU THEN INDICATE THAT YOU WOULD DO
6 SOMETHING WITH THE GLASSES?
7 A. I DID.
8 SHE TOLD ME SHE COULDN'T PICK THE GLASSES UP.
9 Q. DON'T TELL ME WHAT SHE SAID.
10 A. I'M SORRY.
11 MS. CLARK: I WOULD ASK THE JURY TO DISREGARD WHAT
12 THE WITNESS HAS JUST PURPORTED THAT PERSON AS SAYING.
13 THE WITNESS: OKAY.
14 I PUT THEM IN AN ENVELOPE AND I WROTE NICOLE
15 SIMPSON'S NAME ON THE ENVELOPE AND I ALSO WROTE
16 "PRESCRIPTION GLASSES" UNDER HER NAME ON THE ENVELOPE.
17 Q. BY MS. CLARK: WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THAT
18 ENVELOPE THEN?
19 A. I SET IT ON THE BAR, BEHIND THE BAR.
20 Q. AND THE GLASSES WERE INSIDE THE ENVELOPE?
21 A. YES.
22 I PUT THEM IN THE ENVELOPE AND I SEALED THE
23 ENVELOPE.
24 Q. YOU SEALED IT?
25 A. YES.
26 IT WAS A LITTLE BULKY, AND I REMEMBER KIND OF
27 PUSHING THE ENVELOPE DOWN TO MAKE SURE THAT IT WAS CLOSING,
28 BECAUSE IT WAS KIND OF POPPING OPEN.
215
1 SO I KNOW I SEALED IT.
2 Q. DID YOU GET ANOTHER PHONE CALL AFTER THAT?
3 A. YEAH.
4 ABOUT 5 MINUTES LATER, THERE WAS ANOTHER PHONE
5 CALL.
6 Q. DID YOU SPEAK TO THIS PERSON ON THE PHONE?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. DID YOU RECOGNIZE THE VOICE?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. WHOSE VOICE WAS IT?
11 A. IT WAS NICOLE'S.
12 Q. WHAT TIME WAS THAT, APPROXIMATELY?
13 A. I WOULD SAY IT WAS BETWEEN 9:30 AND 9:45.
14 Q. YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH NICOLE?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. AND DID NICOLE ASK YOU TO DO SOMETHING?
17 A. SHE --
18 Q. "YES" OR "NO."
19 A. YES.
20 Q. BASED ON WHAT SHE TOLD YOU, WHAT DID YOU DO?
21 A. I ASKED RON TO COME TO THE PHONE.
22 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "RON," YOU MEAN RON GOLDMAN?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. THE PERSON YOU IDENTIFIED IN PEOPLE'S 24?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. DID RON TAKE THE PHONE?
27 A. HE DID.
28 Q. DID HE HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH NICOLE?
216
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AFTER HE HAD THAT CONVERSATION WITH HER, WHAT
3 DID HE DO?
4 A. I GAVE HIM THE GLASSES AND HE LEFT SHORTLY
5 AFTER.
6 Q. WHEN HE LEFT, WAS HE WEARING A WAITER'S
7 UNIFORM?
8 A. I BELIEVE HE WAS, BLACK PANTS AND A WHITE SHIRT
9 AND A T-SHIRT UNDERNEATH.
10 Q. AND A VEST? DID HE WEAR A VEST?
11 A. WELL, I DON'T RECALL HIM WEARING THE VEST AT
12 THAT TIME, BUT HE DID HAVE A VEST WHILE HE WAS WORKING,
13 DEFINITELY.
14 Q. DID YOU KNOW WHERE RON LIVED?
15 A. I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY WHERE HE LIVED.
16 I KNOW HE LIVED VERY CLOSE BY.
17 Q. TO THE RESTAURANT?
18 A. UH-HUH.
19 Q. IS THAT "YES"?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. LET ME SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH.
22 MS. CLARK: MADAME FOREMAN, I'M GOING TO ASK THAT THE
23 NEXT SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 26.
24 IT IS A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS LABELED -A
25 THROUGH -F.
26 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
27 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 26.)
28 Q. BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED
217
1 AS PEOPLE'S 26.
2 CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU RECOGNIZE IN PHOTOGRAPH
3 -F, WHAT IS DEPICTED THERE?
4 A. YEAH, THAT'S THE ENVELOPE.
5 Q. AND IT'S SEALED -- IT'S AT LEAST NOW PARTIALLY
6 SEALED IN PHOTOGRAPH -F AS YOU SEALED IT?
7 A. RIGHT.
8 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "THAT'S THE ENVELOPE," YOU ARE
9 REFERRING TO --
10 A. YES.
11 Q. -- THAT'S THE ENVELOPE INTO WHICH YOU PLACED
12 THE GLASSES AND MARKED "NICOLE SIMPSON, PRESCRIPTION
13 GLASSES"?
14 A. YES.
15 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
16 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
17 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
18 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
19 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
20
21 (SHORT PAUSE.)
22
23 THE FOREPERSON: ARE THERE ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
24 TO BE SUBMITTED FROM THE GRAND JURY?
25
26 (SHORT PAUSE.)
27
28 THE FOREPERSON: THERE BEING NO ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS,
218
1 MISS CRAWFORD, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE LISTEN VERY
2 CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
3 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
4 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
5 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
6 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
7 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
8 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
9 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
10 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
11 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
12 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
13 YOU.
14 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
15 THE WITNESS: YES.
16 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
17 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
18 THE WITNESS: THANKS.
19
20 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
21 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
22
23 MS. CLARK: THE NEXT WITNESS THAT THE PEOPLE INTEND
24 TO CALL IS A NEW ADDITION TO THE WITNESS LIST.
25 I'M NOT CERTAIN OF THE SPELLING OF HIS LAST
26 NAME, SO I COULD SIMPLY BE PERMITTED TO CALL HIM BY HIS
27 FIRST NAME AND HAVE HIM SPELL IT FOR US ALL AT THE SAME
28 TIME.
219
1 KEITH.
2 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
3 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
4 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
5 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
6 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
7 THE WITNESS: YES.
8 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
9 PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL NAME, SPEAKING
10 DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
11 THE WITNESS: KEITH DOUGLAS ZLOMSOWITCH.
12 K-E-I-T-H D-O-U-G-L-A-S Z-L-O-M-S-O-W-I-T-C-H.
13 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
14 YOU MAY PROCEED.
15
16 KEITH DOUGLAS ZLOMSOWITCH,
17 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
18 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
19
20 E X A M I N A T I O N
21 BY MS. CLARK:
22 Q. SIR, WERE YOU ACQUAINTED AT ANY TIME WITH A
23 WOMAN BY THE NAME OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?
24 A. YES, I WAS.
25 Q. WHEN WAS THAT?
26 A. I MET NICOLE IN JANUARY OF 1992 AND WAS
27 ACQUAINTED WITH HER UP UNTIL THE TIME OF HER DEATH.
28 Q. HOW IS IT THAT YOU CAME TO MEET HER?
220
1 A. I MET NICOLE IN ASPEN, COLORADO. SHE HAD BEEN
2 IN ONE OF THE RESTAURANTS THAT I RUN AND I MET HER THE NEXT
3 DAY AFTER SHE HAD A MEAL IN MY -- ONE OF MY RESTAURANTS.
4 SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT BEING IN THE RESTAURANT
5 THE NIGHT BEFORE, AND I OVERHEARD HER CONVERSATION AND
6 STARTED UP A CONVERSATION WITH HER ABOUT THE RESTAURANT SHE
7 HAD BEEN IN, BEING THAT IT WAS ONE OF MINE.
8 Q. AND WHAT RESTAURANT WAS THAT?
9 A. MEZZALUNA.
10 Q. DID YOU OWN IT, SIR?
11 A. NO.
12 MY TITLE WAS OFFICIALLY DIRECTOR OF
13 OPERATIONS.
14 I RAN THE MEZZALUNA IN ASPEN, COLORADO AS WELL
15 AS THE TWO OUT HERE IN CALIFORNIA.
16 Q. AFTER THAT POINT, AFTER THAT CONVERSATION YOU
17 HAD WITH HER IN ASPEN, DID YOU HAVE SOME KIND OF
18 RELATIONSHIP WITH HER?
19 A. YES, I DID.
20 Q. WAS IT ROMANTIC IN NATURE?
21 A. IT CAME TO BE, YES.
22 Q. AND DID YOU VISIT HER WHERE SHE WAS LIVING IN
23 1992?
24 A. YES, I DID.
25 Q. WHERE WAS THAT?
26 A. ON 325 GRETNA GREEN IN BRENTWOOD, CALIFORNIA.
27 Q. AT THAT TIME, WAS SHE MARRIED?
28 A. SHE WAS -- I BELIEVE SHE WAS -- THE DIVORCE WAS
221
1 PENDING, THE DIVORCE WAS IN THE PROCESS, BUT SHE WAS
2 LEGALLY SEPARATED AND LIVING IN HER OWN RESIDENCE.
3 Q. DID YOU KNOW WHO SHE WAS MARRIED TO?
4 A. I FOUND OUT; YES, I DID.
5 Q. DID YOU EVER MEET THAT PERSON?
6 A. ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS, YES.
7 Q. WHO WAS THAT?
8 A. MR. O.J. SIMPSON.
9 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU A PHOTOGRAPH THAT WAS
10 MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 25.
11 CAN YOU TELL ME IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE PERSON IN
12 THIS PHOTOGRAPH.
13 A. YES.
14 Q. WHO IS THAT?
15 A. NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.
16 Q. SHOWING YOU THE PERSON SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S 23.
17 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT?
18 A. YES, I DO.
19 Q. WHO IS THAT?
20 A. MR. O.J. SIMPSON.
21 Q. NOW, WHEN YOU BEGAN VISITING HER, WAS THAT IN
22 JANUARY OF '92 AS WELL?
23 A. NO, IT WAS NOT.
24 Q. WHEN WAS THAT?
25 A. I CAME TO CALIFORNIA IN APRIL OF '92.
26 Q. DID YOU BEGIN A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP AT THAT
27 TIME?
28 A. YES. IT CAME TO BE ONE.
222
1 Q. WHEN DID IT COME TO BE ONE?
2 A. I ARRIVED IN CALIFORNIA PROBABLY LATE MARCH,
3 EARLY APRIL OF '92, AND BEING THAT I HAD MET HER IN ASPEN,
4 WE IMMEDIATELY, YOU KNOW, CONTACTED EACH OTHER -- I
5 CONTACTED HER -- AND WE STARTED SEEING EACH OTHER AT THAT
6 LEVEL.
7 IT BECAME ROMANTIC APPROXIMATELY 2 WEEKS FROM
8 THAT POINT.
9 Q. DID YOU DATE HER FOR A PERIOD OF TIME?
10 A. YES, I DID.
11 Q. DID YOU EVER LIVE TOGETHER?
12 A. I DATED HER AND STAYED AT THE HOUSE FREQUENTLY,
13 AND AT A POINT IN THE FUTURE, I DID MOVE INTO THE HOUSE FOR
14 A PERIOD OF TIME. BUT NOT IN A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP AT
15 THAT POINT.
16 AT THAT POINT, WE WERE VERY GOOD FRIENDS AND
17 SHE INVITED ME TO LIVE IN THE HOUSE.
18 Q. HOW LONG WERE YOU INVOLVED WITH HER
19 ROMANTICALLY?
20 A. FOR A PERIOD OF APPROXIMATELY 3 TO 4 WEEKS AND
21 THEN -- A MONTH.
22 Q. SO THAT WAS APRIL TO MAY?
23 A. EXACTLY.
24 Q. AFTER THAT POINT, YOU REMAINED FRIENDS?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. DID YOU GO OUT TOGETHER?
27 A. YES, WE DID.
28 Q. FREQUENTLY?
223
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND YOU MAINTAINED THAT FRIENDSHIP UP UNTIL --
3 A. THE LAST CONTACT I HAD WITH NICOLE WAS
4 APPROXIMATELY 5 MONTHS PRIOR TO HER DEATH.
5 Q. WAS THAT A FRIENDLY CONTACT?
6 A. YES, IT WAS.
7 THERE WERE SOME CIRCUMSTANCES THAT LED TO OUR
8 NOT KEEPING IN CONTACT WITH EACH OTHER.
9 Q. WE WILL GET BACK TO THAT.
10 A. OKAY.
11 Q. DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE ROMANTICALLY
12 INVOLVED WITH HER, DID YOU HAVE ANY CONTACT WITH O.J.
13 SIMPSON?
14 A. YES, I DID.
15 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US THE NATURE OF THAT
16 CONTACT.
17 A. THERE WERE SEVERAL INCIDENTS, THE FIRST BEING
18 WHEN I HAD JUST ARRIVED IN CALIFORNIA.
19 I HAD CALLED NICOLE -- SHE HAD GIVEN ME HER
20 NUMBER WHEN WE HAD MET IN ASPEN, AND SHE ASKED ME TO CALL
21 WHEN I GOT TO TOWN. SHE EXPRESSED AN INTEREST IN SEEING ME
22 WHEN I GOT IN TOWN. SO I CALLED HER.
23 APPROXIMATELY 2 OR 3 NIGHTS AFTER I GOT IN
24 TOWN, I WAS WORKING AT ONE OF MY RESTAURANTS, THE MEZZALUNA
25 IN BEVERLY HILLS, SO I INVITED HER DOWN TO I COULD SEE HER
26 THAT NIGHT.
27 SHE SAID SHE WOULD LOVE TO, INVITED A COUPLE OF
28 FRIENDS TO GO ALONG, ASKED IF SHE COULD GET A TABLE BECAUSE
224
1 IT WAS ONE OF THE BUSIER NIGHTS.
2 I SAID, "OF COURSE."
3 SHE CAME DOWN TO THE RESTAURANT. WE WERE
4 HAVING A VERY GOOD NIGHT. THE RESTAURANT WAS EXTREMELY
5 BUSY AT THE TIME.
6 AND MR. SIMPSON WALKED INTO THE RESTAURANT,
7 PULLED UP IN FRONT OF THE RESTAURANT IN HIS CAR TO VALET
8 PARKING, WHICH IS VERY VISIBLE.
9 HE WALKED INTO THE RESTAURANT AND APPROACHED
10 OUR TABLE.
11 Q. AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
12 A. HE LEANED OVER OUR TABLE -- THERE WERE
13 APPROXIMATELY SIX OR EIGHT PEOPLE SITTING AT THE TABLE,
14 FRIENDS OF HERS, MYSELF AND ONE OF MY FRIENDS WHO WAS
15 WORKING AT THE RESTAURANT AT THE TIME WHO I WAS INTRODUCING
16 TO HER FRIENDS.
17 HE LEANED OVER OUR TABLE, RESTED HIS HANDS ON
18 THE TABLE AND SORT OF STARED AT MYSELF AND THE OTHER MALE
19 INDIVIDUAL AT THE TABLE AND INTRODUCED HIMSELF AS MR. O.J.
20 SIMPSON AND REPLIED, "I'M O.J. SIMPSON AND SHE'S STILL MY
21 WIFE."
22 Q. AND WAS HE LOOKING AT YOU WHEN HE SAID THAT?
23 A. YES, HE WAS.
24 Q. AND HE HAD HIS HANDS PLACED ON THE TABLE TOP?
25 A. I CAN'T RECALL IF BOTH HANDS WERE ON THE TABLE
26 TOP OR ONE ON ACTUALLY HER CHAIR AND THE OTHER ON THE
27 TABLE, BUT QUITE IMPOSINGLY LEANING OVER THE TABLE.
28 Q. LEANING OVER THE ENTIRE TABLE?
225
1 A. LEANING OVER THE END OF THE TABLE, AS IF TO
2 ANNOUNCE TO EVERYBODY.
3 Q. DID HE SAY IT IN A SERIOUS TONE OF VOICE?
4 A. YES, HE DID.
5 Q. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE HIS TONE OF VOICE?
6 A. SERIOUS, IF NOT SCARY.
7 JUST DEEP, THREATENING TO THE POINT OF -- YES,
8 WE WERE VERY INTIMIDATED.
9 I WAS FOR SURE INTIMIDATED.
10 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?
11 A. I -- I WAS SHOCKED A LITTLE BIT. I SIMPLY
12 LEANED BACK. I WAS SCARED. I WAS AFRAID OF A POSSIBLE
13 CONFRONTATION, OBVIOUSLY.
14 NICOLE MADE A COMMENT TO HIM. I DON'T RECALL
15 EXACTLY WHAT IT WAS. THEY SORT OF HAD A SMALL CONVERSATION
16 AND HE LEFT THE RESTAURANT AND SHE FOLLOWED HIM OUT OF THE
17 RESTAURANT.
18 THEN I GOT UP FROM THE TABLE AND WENT BACK TO
19 WORK.
20 I WAS IN THE PROCESS OF WORKING AND HANGING OUT
21 AT THE TABLE AT THE SAME TIME. I WAS ENTERTAINING THEM AT
22 THE TABLE AS WELL AS WORKING IN THE RESTAURANT AT THE SAME
23 TIME.
24 SO I GOT UP. I WAS OBVIOUSLY SHAKEN A LITTLE
25 BIT BY THE ORDEAL.
26 Q. IN WHAT MANNER DID HE LEAVE THE RESTAURANT?
27 A. HE LEFT PRETTY RAPIDLY OUT THE FRONT DOOR AND
28 NICOLE FOLLOWED HIM OUT FRONT.
226
1 Q. DID SHE RUN?
2 A. SHE DIDN'T RUN.
3 SHE WENT OUTSIDE TO OBVIOUSLY HAVE A
4 CONVERSATION WITH HIM.
5 Q. AND --
6 A. AND THEY HAD A CONVERSATION OUT FRONT.
7 Q. DID YOU SEE THEM?
8 A. I SAW THEM TALKING TOGETHER AT HIS CAR, YES.
9 Q. WHAT KIND OF -- CAN YOU DESCRIBE THEIR DEMEANOR
10 DURING THAT CONVERSATION.
11 A. IT APPEARED THAT THEY WERE HAVING A DISCUSSION
12 INVOLVING, YOU KNOW, WHAT WAS GOING ON IN THE RESTAURANT.
13 I DID NOT HEAR THE DISCUSSION, BUT THEY WERE
14 GOING -- YOU KNOW, HE WAS GESTURING WITH HIS HANDS AND SHE
15 WAS TALKING BACK TO HIM -- I MEAN, EXPLAINING TO HIM OR
16 SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.
17 I'M NOT SURE.
18 Q. WHEN YOU MENTIONED HER, YOU SEEMED TO KIND OF
19 HOLD YOUR HANDS OUT IN A PLAINTIVE MANNER AND LOOK UP.
20 WAS SHE ACTING LIKE THAT, LIKE SHE WAS TRYING
21 TO APPEASE HIM?
22 A. IN MY MIND, I BELIEVE SO, YES.
23 Q. THAT'S THE WAY IT APPEARED?
24 A. YES, TO ME.
25 Q. SHE WAS NOT YELLING?
26 A. NO, NOT AT ALL.
27 Q. WAS HE?
28 A. WAS HE YELLING?
227
1 Q. WAS HE YELLING?
2 A. IT WOULD BE HARD FOR ME TO HAVE HEARD THAT
3 BEING INSIDE THE RESTAURANT.
4 THE GLASS WINDOWS AND THE AMOUNT OF NOISE,
5 ESPECIALLY THAT EVENING AT THE RESTAURANT BEING VERY BUSY,
6 IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO HEAR ANY TONES FROM
7 OUTSIDE.
8 Q. YOU COULDN'T HEAR VOICES?
9 A. NO, I COULD NOT HEAR VOICES.
10 Q. THE MANNER IN WHICH HE WAS GESTURING, DESCRIBE
11 HOW HE WAS GESTURING FOR US.
12 A. HE WAS SIMPLY, YOU KNOW, AS HE WAS TALKING, HE
13 WAS GESTURING WITH HIS HANDS (INDICATING).
14 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS HELD HIS
15 TWO HANDS, PALMS INWARD IN FRONT OF HIM, TO INDICATE THE
16 GESTURING DONE BY MR. SIMPSON.
17 Q. COULD YOU CHARACTERIZE HIS DEMEANOR FOR US.
18 COULD YOU DESCRIBE IT ANY FURTHER?
19 A. HIS DEMEANOR OUTSIDE OF THE RESTAURANT?
20 Q. YES.
21 A. IT WOULD BE DIFFICULT FOR ME TO DO THAT BEING
22 THAT I WAS FOCUSING ON RUNNING THE RESTAURANT AS WELL AT
23 THE TIME.
24 I WAS AWARE OF THEIR CONVERSATION OUT FRONT,
25 BUT I THINK IN MY OWN MIND I WANTED TO AVOID BEING SEEN BY
26 HIM OR BEING SEEN AS PAYING ATTENTION TO IT.
27 I WAS TRYING TO AVOID ANY POSSIBLE
28 CONFRONTATION, OBVIOUSLY.
228
1 Q. DID SHE COME BACK IN THE RESTAURANT AFTER THAT?
2 A. YES, SHE DID.
3 Q. HOW LONG AFTER THAT, AFTER THEY LEFT?
4 AFTER THEY WERE OUTSIDE, HOW LONG WAS IT BEFORE
5 SHE CAME BACK IN?
6 A. I WOULD SAY OR GUESS 10 MINUTES.
7 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE HER APPEARANCE OR DEMEANOR
8 WHEN SHE RETURNED.
9 A. SHE WAS VISIBLY SHAKEN.
10 SHE SAT BACK DOWN AT THE TABLE AND I CAN'T
11 REMEMBER HER EXACT WORDS, BUT THEY WERE TO THE EFFECT OF,
12 "I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS IS GOING ON."
13 Q. SHE SEEMED UPSET?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. WAS SH