DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE

APPEARANCES: (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED,
MR. CARL JONES ALSO APPEARING ON BEHALF OF WITNESS, ROSA LOPEZ.)

(JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)

(CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)

(PAGES 15410 THROUGH 15432, VOLUME 90A AND 90B, TRANSCRIBED AND SEALED UNDER SEPARATE COVER.)

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD MORNING, COUNSEL.

MR. SHAPIRO: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. MR. SIMPSON IS AGAIN BEFORE THE COURT WITH HIS COUNSEL, MR. SHAPIRO, MR. COCHRAN, MR. BAILEY. THE PEOPLE ARE REPRESENTED BY MS. CLARK AND MR. DARDEN. THE JURY IS NOT PRESENT.

COUNSEL, ANYTHING WE NEED TO ADDRESS BEFORE WE RESUME WITH THE JURY? MR. COCHRAN: YES. I THINK WE HAVE A COUPLE OF THINGS, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.

MS. CLARK: HOW COME THEY DON'T TELL US?

MR. COCHRAN: JUST ONE SECOND, YOUR HONOR.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: I SEE MR. JONES IS HERE.

MR. COCHRAN: MR. BAILEY WILL LEAD WHILE WE GET MR. SCHECK HERE.

THE COURT: GOOD MORNING, MR. BAILEY.

MR. BAILEY: YES, JUDGE. SUBSEQUENT TO OUR CONFERENCE ON FRIDAY, A NEW AFFIDAVIT HAS BEEN EXECUTED AND I BELIEVE SERVED ON COUNSEL AND THE COURT.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I HAVE RECEIVED THAT.

MR. BAILEY: ADDING AN ESSENTIAL FACT. IN ADDITION TO THAT, BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH CONTROVERSY, I ASKED MR. JONES TO COME IN THIS MORNING AND ADDRESS THE COURT. I KNOW IT HAS BEEN ALLEGED THAT HE WAS QUOTED AS SAYING THERE WAS NO PROBLEM, AND I THINK WE COULD GET THAT CLEARED UP ON THE RECORD.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. JONES. GOOD MORNING, SIR.

MR. JONES: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR. YOUR HONOR, I AM REPRESENTING MRS. LOPEZ. EARLY ON I SUBMITTED A LETTER TO ALL PARTIES EXPRESSING MY CONCERN AND APPREHENSION THAT SHE MIGHT NOT REMAIN AVAILABLE BECAUSE OF HER CONCERN ABOUT LOSING HER PRIVACY AT HOME AND LOSING HER EMPLOYMENT BECAUSE OF THE PUBLICITY. ABOUT A WEEK AGO I RECEIVED A THIRDHAND MESSAGE THAT SHE HAD LEFT LOS ANGELES FOR EL SALVADOR AND I RELAYED THAT TO ALL PARTIES. AS IT TURNS OUT, SHE WAS -- SHE HAD NOT LEFT, SHE WAS ONLY SEEKING SOME PRIVACY AND COMFORT FROM THE PUBLICITY, BUT THAT ENDED WHEN CHANNEL 34 FOUND HER LOCATION AND BROADCAST IT EVERYWHERE. I MET WITH HER LAST FRIDAY. I WAS PRESENT WHEN SHE REVIEWED THE AFFIDAVIT AND SIGNED IT THAT MR. BAILEY REFERRED TO. I KNOW THAT AT THAT TIME SHE RELUCTANTLY AGREED TO REMAIN FOR ANOTHER WEEK. I KNOW ON SATURDAY SHE CALLED ME. SHE WAS VERY UPSET, THREATENING TO LEAVE LOS ANGELES. LAST NIGHT SHE CALLED ME AT HOME AND SAID CHANNEL 7 IS OUT IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE, I'M THINKING OF LEAVING BEFORE THE END OF THE WEEK, AND I OFFER THAT TO THE COURT FOR WHATEVER IT IS WORTH. I KNOW THAT THE DEFENSE HAS ASKED TO EITHER TAKE HER OUT OF ORDER OR TO DO A CONDITIONAL EXAM. SHE IS AVAILABLE FOR EITHER ONE OF THOSE. WE ARE GOING ALMOST WEEK TO WEEK ON HER SITUATION.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, MR. JONES, HAS SHE ACTUALLY PURCHASED ANY AIRLINE TICKETS YET?

MR. JONES: NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE, NO.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE I THINK THERE IS SOME ADVANTAGE TO MAKING RESERVATIONS A WEEK OR TWO WEEKS IN ADVANCE, AND MY RECOLLECTION IS CONTINENTAL ONLY FLIES THERE EVERY OTHER DAY OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.

MR. JONES: I UNDERSTAND. AND I WOULD AGREE IN THE NORMAL SITUATION WHERE THERE ARE CREDIT CARDS AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE, BUT MY IMPRESSION IS THAT THIS LADY, WHO IS WORKING AS A LIVE-IN HOUSEKEEPER, DOES NOT HAVE ACCESS TO THOSE ITEMS AND WOULD PROBABLY MAKE A LAST MINUTE PURCHASE OR JUST SIMPLY DISAPPEAR WITHIN LOS ANGELES. I LOST HER FOR A WEEK. I JUST SIMPLY COULD NOT FIND HER.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE HAS SHE BEEN SUBPOENAED BY EITHER SIDE?

MR. JONES: ON FRIDAY SHE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT SHE HAD BEEN SUBPOENAED BY THE DEFENSE.

THE COURT: FOR WHAT DATE?

MS. JONES: I'M SORRY, I DON'T KNOW.

THE COURT: ANY GUESS?

MR. JONES: I BELIEVE THAT IT WAS APPROXIMATELY A MONTH OR TWO OFF.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: PROBABLY A DATE IN MARCH.

THE COURT: I THINK IT IS THAT SECOND WEEK IN MARCH THAT WE HAVE AGREED ON.

THE COURT: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, MR. JONES. MR. DARDEN.

MR. JONES: YOUR HONOR, I'M IN TRIAL IN DEPARTMENT 108 IF I AM NEEDED.

THE COURT: LET'S SEE IF MR. DARDEN HAS ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS REGARDING YOUR COMMENTS TO THE COURT. MY APOLOGIES TO THE OTHER COURT FOR DELAYING YOU. GOOD MORNING, MR. DARDEN.

MR. DARDEN: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR. YOUR HONOR, MR. -- MR. JONES' COMMENTS THIS MORNING ARE IN STARK CONTRAST I BELIEVE TO WHAT ROSA LOPEZ APPARENTLY TOLD KMEX, CHANNEL 34, JUST THIS PAST FRIDAY AND SHE TOLD A REPORTER FROM THAT TELEVISION STATION THAT SHE DID NOT WANT TO RETURN TO EL SALVADOR, THAT SHE FEARED PERSECUTION IN EL SALVADOR AND THAT SHE HAD LAST TWO SONS IN THE CIVIL WAR THERE AND THAT SHE DIDN'T WANT TO GO TO EL SALVADOR. SHE DIDN'T INDICATE THAT SHE WANTED TO LEAVE THE CITY OF LOS ANGELES. SHE INDICATED ONLY THAT SHE WANTED HER PRIVACY. SHE TOLD KMEX THAT SHE WANTED TO TESTIFY, THAT SHE WOULD TESTIFY IN COURT IF REQUIRED TO DO SO, AND THAT SHE WOULD ACCEPT THE SUBPOENA TO TESTIFY IN COURT. I DON'T KNOW WHERE MR. JONES GETS THIS NEW -- THIS NEW ACCOUNT, THIS NEW VERSION FROM MISS LOPEZ THAT PERHAPS SHE MIGHT LEAVE THE COUNTRY, BECAUSE THAT IS IN STARK CONTRAST TO WHAT SHE TOLD KMEX.

THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE ANY VIDEOTAPE OF THIS INTERVIEW?

MR. DARDEN: YES, YOUR HONOR, I DO. I DO. I HAVE A COPY FOR THE COURT, AND I WILL PRESENT IT TO THE COURT, BUT SOMETHING ELSE THAT WAS INTERESTING IN TERMS OF WHAT SHE APPARENTLY TOLD THIS --

THE COURT: LET ME ASK YOU ONE OTHER THING BEFORE WE PROCEED, JUST AN INFORMATIONAL QUESTION, MR. DARDEN. I TAKE IT THAT INTERVIEW BY KMEX WAS DONE IN SPANISH?

MR. DARDEN: IT IS IN SPANISH AND MISS LOPEZ IS NOT LIVE ON THE TAPE. THE REPORTER APPARENTLY SPENT TWO HOURS WITH HER AND CAME OUT AND SPOKE ON CAMERA, SO THIS IS THE REPORTER'S ACCOUNT OF WHAT SHE HAD JUST BEEN TOLD BY ROSA LOPEZ.

THE COURT: SO WE HAVE A DOUBLE HEARSAY?

MR. DARDEN: WE HAVE A DOUBLE HEARSAY ISSUE HERE. BUT SOMETHING ELSE THAT THE REPORTER INDICATED ON CHANNEL 34 WAS THAT ROSA LOPEZ TOLD HER THAT MR. JONES HAD BEEN ENCOURAGING HER TO RETURN TO EL SALVADOR AND HAD REPEATED TO HER OFTEN AND CONSTANTLY THAT SHE COULD RETURN TO EL SALVADOR AT ANY TIME, AT ANY TIME SHE WANTED, WHICH RAISES SOME QUESTIONS IN THE MINDS OF THE PROSECUTION, YOUR HONOR, AND THAT IS, WHY WOULD THEY COME HERE AND FILE AFFIDAVIT -- THESE AFFIDAVITS REPEATEDLY CLAIMING THAT SHE IS ABOUT TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY WHEN IT APPEARS, AT LEAST THERE IS SOME INDICATION, THAT THEY ARE ENCOURAGING HER TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY? I DON'T THINK THAT THE COURT SHOULD ACCEPT ROSA LOPEZ' AFFIDAVIT OR DECLARATION IN THIS MATTER. I THINK THAT WHAT IS NECESSARY IS THE COURT -- AND IF THE COURT IS INCLINED TO DO SO, I THINK WHAT THE COURT SHOULD DO IS REQUIRE ROSA LOPEZ TO APPEAR HERE UNDER OATH AND LET'S GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS.

THE COURT: WELL, IF YOU RECALL THE PROCEDURE, I THINK UNDER 1335 INDICATES THAT DURING THE COURSE OF THE EXAMINATION, IF THE COURT MAKES A FINDING THAT THE THREAT TO THE WITNESS OR THE TRAVEL PLANS ARE NOT IMMINENT, THEN THE COURT CAN CANCEL AT THAT TIME ANY CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION.

BUT MR. DARDEN, I THINK YOU ARE SORT OF IN A -- HAVE TO MAKE A TACTICAL DECISION WHETHER OR NOT YOU WOULD WANT TO HAVE A CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION PROBABLY IN THIS CASE ON VIDEOTAPE, SUBJECT TO, OF COURSE, THE 240 UNAVAILABILITY FINDING AT THE TIME THAT THE DEFENSE WANTS TO PRESENT THAT TESTIMONY, VERSUS THE ABILITY TO CROSS-EXAMINE THAT PERSON LIVE IN FRONT OF THE JURY, ALTHOUGH OUT OF ORDER. SO THAT IS A TACTICAL DECISION THAT I THINK -- HAVE YOU CONTEMPLATED?

MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, WE HAVE NO INTEREST IN ALLOWING THE DEFENSE TO CALL THIS PERSON OUT OF ORDER. WE DON'T THINK THEY HAVE PROVIDED SUFFICIENT GROUNDS FOR THE COURT TO CONCLUDE THAT SHE IS ABOUT TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY AND THAT A CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION OUGHT TO BE ALLOWED. SHE SAYS -- SHE HAS SAID THAT SHE IS WILLING TO TESTIFY AND SHE HAS INDICATED THAT SHE IS NOT PLANNING TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY. SHE SHOULD WAIT AND TESTIFY IN THE DEFENSE CASE IF THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT HER TO DO. WE DON'T CONSIDER HER TO BE CREDIBLE; THEY DO. THEY THINK SHE IS A MATERIAL WITNESS, A CRITICAL WITNESS IN THEIR CASE. WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO HEARING HER TESTIFY IN FRONT OF THE JURY.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET ME ASK YOU THIS THEN, MR. DARDEN: KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT MISS LOPEZ, WHAT WOULD YOUR TIME ESTIMATE BE FOR A CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION? HOUR? TWO HOURS? I ASKED YOU THIS MERELY FOR SCHEDULING PURPOSES.

MR. DARDEN: THREE HOURS.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MR. DARDEN: I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO INDICATE, IF I MAY, YOUR HONOR, THAT MISS LOPEZ IS CLAIMING THAT SHE HAS BEEN HARASSED. SHE HAS NOT BEEN HARASSED BY THE PROSECUTION. WE HAVE MADE NO ATTEMPT TO CONTACT HER DIRECTLY AT ALL.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MR. DARDEN. ALL RIGHT. MR. BAILEY, DO YOU WANT TO RESPOND TO ANY OF THE COMMENTS BY MR. DARDEN?

MR. BAILEY: I DO, YOUR HONOR. I THINK YOU OUGHT TO TOTALLY DISREGARD THE SECONDHAND REPORTS BY A NEWS PERSON WHO ALLEGEDLY INTERVIEWED MISS LOPEZ. THAT PERSON COULD HAVE COME IN HERE AND TOLD YOU WHAT WAS SAID IF IN FACT IT WAS SAID OR IT MAY BE JUST A GIANT EMBELLISHMENT IN ORDER TO GET A STORY. BUT ALL THAT ASIDE, I SAT WITH MR. COCHRAN AND HER COUNSEL IN MR. COCHRAN'S OFFICE FRIDAY NIGHT AFTER WE LEFT YOU AND I HEARD WHAT SHE SAID THEN, AND IT IS TRUE, HER SON WAS KILLED IN THE CIVIL WAR BECAUSE HE WAS A PILOT AND SHE TALKED TO ME ABOUT THAT. BUT I THINK HER POSITION IS SHE WOULD LIKE TO GET AWAY FROM THE HARASSMENT AT ANY LEVEL AND IT CONTINUES. CHANNEL 7 WAS OUT THERE, AS MR. JONES HAS TOLD YOU. AND IN THE BALANCING INVOLVED, AS AGAINST THE POSSIBLE CONSUMPTION OF A FEW HOURS TO CREATE A VIDEOTAPE, WHICH MEETS THE CRITERIA TO HAVE EVIDENTIARY STATUS BEFORE THE JURY, IF THE WITNESS DISAPPEARS, AS AGAINST THE CALAMITOUS PROBLEM THAT OCCURS IF EVERYBODY GUESSES WRONG, YOU DENY THE EXAMINATION AND SHE DOES GO AND YOU HAVE NO MEANS TO GET HER BACK AND WE CAN'T FIND HER TO DEPOSE HER DOWN THERE, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE -- THE BALANCE IN THE SCALES OF JUSTICE IS VERY HEAVILY WEIGHTED TOWARD ENSURING THE WITNESS. THERE IS SO LITTLE TO LOSE ON THE ONE HAND AND SO MUCH TO LOSE ON THE OTHER. NOW, THE FOCAL POINT OF THIS WITNESS' TESTIMONY, AS I'M SURE YOUR HONOR UNDERSTANDS, IS PRESENTLY OPPOSED BY A DOG. A DOG HAS ANNOUNCED THAT MURDER WAS OCCURRING AT 10:15, IF I UNDERSTAND THE PROSECUTION'S OPENING AND ITS EVIDENCE SO FAR. THIS WITNESS SAYS AT 10:15 THIS MAN'S AUTOMOBILE, WHICH IS CAST AS AN INSTRUMENT OF MURDER IN THIS CASE, AND THEY ARE LOCKED IN, THEY CAN'T SEPARATE O.J. SIMPSON, THAT BRONCO IN THEIR EVIDENCE, IT IS TOO LATE. THAT CAR WAS WHERE IT IS USUALLY PARKED WHEN IT IS AT HOME, AND THAT IS RIGHT OUTSIDE THE ROCKINGHAM ENTRANCE AND SHE SAW IT THERE AS SHE ROUTINELY WALKED A PATH. THAT IS PRETTY SIMPLE EVIDENCE. FURTHERMORE, THE PROSECUTION, WHICH IS QUICK TO SAY NOW THAT THEY DON'T BELIEVE HER, NEVER TALKED TO HER EXCEPT THROUGH THE PERSON OF MARK FUHRMAN WHO TALKED TO HER THAT MORNING AND SHE TOLD HIM SHE HEARD STRANGE THINGS AND HE SAID, "I WILL SEND SOMEONE BACK TO INTERVIEW YOU" AND TO THIS DAY NO ONE HAS EVER COME BACK TO INTERVIEW HER. NOW, THIS WOMAN'S STORY NEEDS TO BE PERPETUATED. I DON'T THINK SHE WANTS TO GO TO EL SALVADOR AND WE ARE NOT ENCOURAGING HER. MR. JONES IS NOT A MEMBER OF THE DEFENSE TEAM, HE IS HER LAWYER, BUT SHE DOES DESPERATELY WANT TO STOP HAVING PEOPLE SHOVE A MICROPHONE IN HER FACE EVERY TIME SHE WALKS OUT THE DOOR. NOW, SHE HAS MOVED SEVERAL TIMES TO TRY TO AVOID THAT AND HAS BEEN UNSUCCESSFUL.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

THE COURT: MR. BAILEY, WHAT IS YOUR TIME ESTIMATE FOR THE CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION?

MR. BAILEY: DIRECT EXAMINATION, THIRTY MINUTES TOPS.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, SIR.

MR. BAILEY: I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: THANK YOU, SIR.

MR. BAILEY: OH, OKAY.

MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, IF I MIGHT, I WOULD ENCOURAGE THE COURT TO HAVE THE REPORTERS WHO SPOKE TO ROSA LOPEZ THIS PAST FRIDAY APPEAR HERE IN COURT AND PROVIDE THE COURT WITH THEIR ACCOUNT OF WHAT ROSA LOPEZ TOLD HER.

THE COURT: WELL, MR. DARDEN, LET ME SUGGEST THIS -- AND FORGIVE ME FOR INTERRUPTING YOU. LET ME SUGGEST THIS: THE STATUTE DOES SAY THAT THE COURT CAN EXAMINE WHETHER OR NOT THE CLAIM THAT THEY ARE GOING TO LEAVE IS BONA FIDE MADE AT THE TIME OF THE CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION. I CAN VISIT THIS ISSUE AND IF I FIND THAT IT IS A SUBTERFUGE OR SOMETHING ELSE, THEN I CAN CANCEL THE CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION AND JUST ORDER THE WITNESS TO APPEAR ON A DATE CERTAIN. I CAN DO THAT. WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST WE DO, NOW THAT I HAVE THE TIME ESTIMATE, I'M GOING TO SET THE -- THE CODE SAYS THAT IF AN AFFIDAVIT SUPPORTING THE ALLEGATION THAT A NECESSARY WITNESS OR A MATERIAL WITNESS IS GOING TO LEAVE, THEN I AM REQUIRED TO SET A DATE FOR A CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION, THREE DAYS -- THREE DAYS FROM -- GOOD THING THEY DIDN'T HAVE THREE -- THREE DAYS FROM TODAY WILL BE FRIDAY AS, IS INDICATED BY THE CODE. I'M GOING TO SET THIS FOR 9:00 A.M. FRIDAY MORNING AND WE WILL TAKE IT UP, AND IF YOU THINK YOU HAVE A WITNESS WHO WILL TESTIFY TO THAT ISSUE, HAVE THAT PERSON HERE.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. JONES, YOU WILL HAVE YOUR CLIENT HERE 9:00 A.M. FRIDAY, PLEASE.

MR. JONES: I WILL, YOUR HONOR. AND ALTHOUGH I DON'T REALLY FEEL A NEED TO ADDRESS MR. DARDEN'S COMMENTS ON MY CREDIBILITY, I WOULD LIKE TO INDICATE TO THE COURT THAT --

THE COURT: WELL, MR. JONES, YOU ARE SPEAKING TO ME, AND I UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION WHICH IS GOING ON HERE. YOU AND I ARE WELL ACQUAINTED WITH EACH OTHER. I AM ALWAYS HAPPY TO SEE YOU COME INTO MY COURT. YOU KNOW THAT.

MR. JONES: I APPRECIATE THAT. NOT ONCE HAVE I ENCOURAGED MRS. LOPEZ TO LEAVE. WHAT I HAVE SAID IS WHEN SHE ASKED ME WHY DID THEY ARREST MARY ANNE GERCHAS, I TOLD HER SHE WOULD NOT BE ARRESTED, SHE WAS A CITIZEN, SHE WAS FREE TO COME AND GO. IF SHE STAYED HERE SHE WOULD NOT BE ARRESTED. IF SHE LEFT SHE WOULD NOT BE ARRESTED. THAT WAS THE EXTENT OF MY CONVERSATION WITH HER. IT IS THE HEIGHT OF STUPIDITY FOR ANYBODY TO THINK THAT I WOULD URGE MRS. LOPEZ TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY AND DEPRIVE THE DEFENSE OF THIS WITNESS. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THEY ARE FIGHTING AGAINST TAKING HER OUT OF ORDER AND PREFER TO ROLL THE DICE THAT SHE WILL LEAVE AND DEPRIVE EVERYBODY OF HER TESTIMONY.

THE COURT: THANK YOU, MR. JONES.

MR. DARDEN: THAT IS NOT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND, MR. JONES. YOUR HONOR, WHILE MR. JONES IS HERE, WOULD YOU ASK MR. JONES TO REMAIN FOR ONE MOMENT. MR. JONES, WHEN CAN WE INTERVIEW YOUR CLIENT, IF AT ALL?

MR. COCHRAN: HE CAN ASK THAT OFF THE RECORD, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS FLOOR SHOWING.

MR. DARDEN: THIS ISN'T A FLOOR SHOW.

THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.

MR. COCHRAN: YES.

THE COURT: MR. JONES, WILL YOUR WITNESS BE AVAILABLE FOR THE PROSECUTION TO BE INTERVIEWED?

MR. JONES: YOUR HONOR, UPON THEIR REQUEST AND GIVING ME A TIME AND PLACE, I WILL RELAY THAT TO HER, AND MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO HAVE HER AVAILABLE.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MR. JONES: THIS IS GRANDSTANDING. I DON'T NEED IT AND I REALLY DON'T HAVE TIME FOR IT.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. JONES, I WILL COORDINATE ANY MEETINGS THROUGH THE COURT CLERK. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, SIR.

MR. DARDEN: ANY TIME, ANY PLACE, TOMORROW OR THE DAY AFTER, YOUR HONOR, WILL BE FINE WITH US.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MR. BAILEY: APPARENTLY THE PROSECUTION EXPECTS TO DEFAME THE WITNESS ON THE ONE HAND AND GET A FRIENDLY INTERVIEW ON THE OTHER.

THE COURT: MR. BAILEY, THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. MR. SCHECK, IS THERE SOMETHING WE NEED TO ADDRESS ON THE DNA, OTHER SCIENTIFIC TESTING?

MR. SCHECK: I JUST WAS CONFERRING WITH MR. HODGMAN AND HE WILL BE DOWN AT THE MORNING BREAK. ONE THING BEFORE I ADDRESS THE SUBSTANTIVE MATTER, I JUST WANT TO SAY FOR THE COURT, I THINK EVERYTHING WENT VERY, VERY WELL AND THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL OF PROFESSIONALISM ON THE PART OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT, MR. RAQUEL, THE SID PERSON WHO WENT, ROBERT HORN FROM THE NEW YORK STATE POLICE AND A JAMES KENNEDY, AND EVERYBODY WAS WORKING UNTIL 2:00, 3:00 IN THE MORNING. AND I FELT REMISS UNLESS I WAS VERY COOPERATIVE, VERY PROFESSIONAL ON THE PART OF MR. CLARKE AND MR. HODGMAN AND SO WE ARE GRATEFUL FOR THAT.

THE COURT: I WAS PLEASED NOBODY WAS CALLING ME AT HOME OVER THE WEEKEND.

MR. SCHECK: I FIGURED YOU MIGHT BE. THE ONE POINT I WANTED TO MAKE BEFORE WE BEGAN THE PROCEEDINGS TODAY WAS A PROPOSAL FOR THE COURT WITH RESPECT TO THE EVIDENCE AND HOW IT CAME IN AND MAYBE JUST A STATEMENT TO THE JURY, BECAUSE MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT AFTER MISS CLARK TOOK THE GLOVE AND THE WATCH CAP OUT OF ITS ORIGINAL PACKAGING AND THEN PUT IT INTO TWO SEPARATE PLASTIC BAGS, AND AT THAT POINT WE RAISED AN OBJECTION, THAT IT SHOULD NOT BE PACKAGED THAT WAY, MS. CLARK AGREED NOT TO HAVE IT PACKAGED THAT WAY, AT WHICH POINT THE GLOVE AND THE WATCH CAP WAS THEN PUT BACK INTO THE ORIGINAL PAPER BAGS AND THEN TWO SEPARATE PLASTIC ENVELOPES WERE CREATED THAT CONTAINED, AS IT TURNS OUT, TRACE EVIDENCE FROM BOTH OBJECTS AND -- EXCUSE ME FOR ONE SECOND.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. SCHECK: SO I THINK IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO EXPLAIN TO THE JURY, AND I THINK IT SHOULD COME FROM THE COURT, EXACTLY WHAT TRANSPIRED AND THAT SINCE THEY LEFT THESE OBJECTS ARE NOW IN THE PACKAGING THAT THEY ARE AND THE EVENTS THAT LED TO THEM DOING IT IN A SIMPLE, FACTUAL DESCRIPTIVE WAY.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, MR. SCHECK. MISS CLARK, ANY COMMENT ON MR. SCHECK'S PROPOSAL TO ADVISE THE JURY REGARDING THE REPACKAGING OF THOSE TWO ITEMS? AND WHAT IS -- MR. SCHECK, WHAT IS THEIR CURRENT STATUS RIGHT NOW? ARE THOSE TWO ITEMS STILL BEING EXAMINED AND TESTED?

MR. SCHECK: OH, THE TERMS WERE THAT THOSE ITEMS WERE JUST ITEMS THAT WE COULD LOOK AT AND EXAMINE.

THE COURT: RIGHT.

MR. SCHECK: WITH RESPECT TO --

THE COURT: I'M JUST CURIOUS AS TO WHERE THEY ARE AT THIS MOMENT.

MR. SCHECK: OH, I THINK THEY ARE HERE, AREN'T THEY?

MS. CLARK: NOT ALL OF THEM.

MR. SCHECK: WELL, EVERYTHING -- WHAT IS BACK?

THE CLERK: NOTHING.

MR. SCHECK: THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE ON A COURIER AND BE HERE THIS MORNING, SO I WOULD HAVE TO ASK MR. HODGMAN ABOUT THAT, BUT I KNOW THAT THEY FLEW IT OUT YESTERDAY AFTERNOON.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, HOW DO YOU INTEND TO PROCEED WITH THIS EVIDENCE THIS MORNING?

MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY, I DIDN'T HEAR YOU.

THE COURT: HOW DO YOU INTEND ON PROCEEDING THIS MORNING WITH THAT EVIDENCE SINCE THE COURIER HAS NOT RETURNED?

MS. CLARK: WELL, I WOULD LIKE TO OBVIOUSLY HAVE IT BACK FOR THE BALANCE OF DETECTIVE LANGE'S TESTIMONY. THERE IS GOING TO BE QUITE A BIT MORE TESTIMONY ABOUT WHAT HE DID AT THE CRIME SCENE.

THE COURT: OKAY.

MS. CLARK: SO THAT IS A PROBLEM. THE OTHER THING IS THAT I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO THE JURY BEING INFORMED THAT IN ORDER TO PRESERVE TRACE AND BIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE ON THE ITEMS THEY WERE REPACKAGED, BECAUSE IT IS JUST A BETTER PROCEDURE, BUT THE PROBLEM I HAVE IN THE REPACKAGING, YOUR HONOR, IS THAT THE JURY IS NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO SEE THE EVIDENCE. IT IS GOING TO BE IN A BROWN PAPER BAG.

THE COURT: WELL, NO. AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME THEY WILL BE ALLOWED TO LOOK AT IT IN AN APPROPRIATE MANNER.

MS. CLARK: I MEAN SOMEBODY IS GOING TO HAVE TO --

THE COURT: WE WILL CROSS THAT BRIDGE WHEN WE GET THERE. I MEAN, THEY HAVE SEEN ENOUGH PHOTOGRAPHS OF IT, THAT THEY DON'T NEED TO SEE IT UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL TO KNOW WHAT IT IS AT THIS POINT.

MS. CLARK: OKAY.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

THE COURT: SO I TAKE IT YOU CAN PROCEED THIS MORNING, HOWEVER, USING PHOTOGRAPHS OF THOSE TWO ITEMS; IS THAT CORRECT?

MS. CLARK: YES, AND I WILL.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MS. CLARK: AS I UNDERSTAND IT NOW, I HAVE JUST BEEN INFORMED THAT THE ITEMS ARE NOW AT SID AND THEY WILL BE BACK IN COURT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

THE COURT: THEY ARE BEING LOGGED BACK IN?

MS. CLARK: EXACTLY, EXACTLY.

THE COURT: THANK YOU, MR. SCHECK.

MS. CLARK: THERE ARE ALSO OTHER ITEMS -- THERE ARE A COUPLE OF OTHER ITEMS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN RETURNED YET THAT I WAS GOING TO GET TO LATER ON IN THE TESTIMONY, IF I CAN CONFER WITH MR. SCHECK BRIEFLY TO FIND OUT WHERE THEY ARE AT.

THE COURT: CERTAINLY.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MS. CLARK: I'M INFORMED THAT IT WILL NOT BE A PROBLEM, SO WE CAN PROCEED.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. LET ME SEE COUNSEL AT THE SIDE BAR WITH THE COURT REPORTER BEFORE WE GET STARTED WITH THE JURY. (PAGES 15452 THROUGH 15455, VOLUME 91A, TRANSCRIBED AND SEALED UNDER SEPARATE COVER.)

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. ALL RIGHT. DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE THE JURY, PLEASE.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. PLEASE BE SEATED. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE NOW BEEN REJOINED BY ALL OF THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL. GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

THE JURY: GOOD MORNING.

THE COURT: AS YOU KNOW, WE NORMALLY SCHEDULE OUR RESTART EVERY MORNING AT NINE O'CLOCK, AND JUST TO LET YOU KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON WHILE YOU ARE BACK THERE IN THE SMALL JURY ROOM, WE START EVERY MORNING AT NINE O'CLOCK AND THERE ARE VARIOUS ISSUES THAT I NEED TO ADDRESS WITH THE ATTORNEYS OUT OF YOUR PRESENCE BEFORE WE GET STARTED EVERY MORNING, AND TODAY WAS LIKE NO OTHER. MY PLANNED SCHEDULE TO GET THESE THINGS DONE IN A FEW MINUTES WAS A LITTLE OPTIMISTIC, SO I JUST WANTED TO EXPLAIN TO YOU THAT WE HAVE BEEN OUT HERE ON THE RECORD WITH THE COURT REPORTER WORKING EVER SINCE NINE O'CLOCK AND WE WILL FROM TIME TO TIME HAVE TO TAKE WHAT APPEAR TO YOU TO BE BREAKS VERY SOON INTO THE PROCEEDING, BUT THAT IS BECAUSE THE COURT REPORTER AND THE STAFF HAVE BEEN WORKING A SIGNIFICANT PERIOD OF TIME AND THEY NEED BREAKS AS WELL. ALL RIGHT. DETECTIVE LANGE, WOULD YOU PLEASE RESUME THE WITNESS STAND.

TOM LANGE, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE EVENING ADJOURNMENT, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE LANGE.

THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: YOU ARE REMINDED THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH, SIR. MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CONTINUE WITH YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

BY MS. CLARK:

Q: I BELIEVE WHEN WE LEFT OFF, DETECTIVE LANGE, YOU HAD INDICATED THAT THERE WAS A REASON WHY YOU DID THE WALK THROUGH WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WHEN YOU WENT TO THE CRIME SCENE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?

A: YES.

Q: AND THE REASON THAT YOU INDICATED WAS?

A: SO THAT DETECTIVE PHILLIPS COULD POINT OUT TO ME THE -- THE EVIDENCE AT THE CRIME SCENE AND CAUTION ME AGAINST DISTURBING ANY OF THAT EVIDENCE.

Q: NOW, PRIOR TO THAT NIGHT, SIR, HAD YOU MET DETECTIVE RON PHILLIPS OR DETECTIVE MARK FUHRMAN EVER BEFORE?

MR. COCHRAN: BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR, ON DIRECT EXAMINATION LAST WEEK.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: NO, I HAVE NEVER MET EITHER MAN.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DETECTIVE LANGE, WOULD YOU SORT OF PULL THAT MICROPHONE UP A LITTLE BIT CLOSER TO YOU THERE. PULL IT IN, TOO.

THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)

THE COURT: THERE YOU GO. THANK YOU.

THE WITNESS: YES. MISS CLARK.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.

Q: ALL RIGHT. I THINK YOU INDICATED THAT AT THE REAR OF THE LOCATION, BACK BY THE ALLEY, DID YOU NOTICE A CAR THERE PARKED IN THE DRIVEWAY?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT KIND OF CAR WAS THAT?

A: IT WAS A JEEP, GRAND CHEROKEE JEEP.

Q: WHAT COLOR WAS IT?

A: IT WAS BLACK IN COLOR.

Q: NOTICE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THAT JEEP?

A: I NOTICED THAT THE RIGHT FRONT PASSENGER DOOR WAS CRACKED, AS IN OPENED; NOT DAMAGED AT ALL.

Q: UH-HUH. NOW, AT SOME POINT DID YOU GO INSIDE THE HOUSE?

A: YES.

Q: AGAIN. YOU ALREADY INDICATED I THINK TO US THAT YOU WENT IN ONCE BRIEFLY.

A: YES. INITIALLY WHEN WE ARRIVED AT THE REAR WE DID A WALK THROUGH TO THE OUTSIDE, THEN WEST DOWN THE WALKWAY AND THEN RE-ENTERED THE HOUSE THROUGH THE GARAGE.

Q: AND WHEN YOU RE-ENTER THE HOUSE THROUGH THE GARAGE, WHERE DID YOU GO?

A: WE WENT TO THE SECOND LEVEL.

Q: AND ON THE SECOND LEVEL WHAT DID YOU FIND?

A: I OBSERVED WHAT APPEARED TO BE THE MASTER BEDROOM TOWARD THE FRONT -- FRONT OF THE HOUSE ON THE SECOND LEVEL AND I ENTERED THE BEDROOM AND MADE SOME OBSERVATIONS IN THERE.

Q: WHAT DID YOU SEE?

A: I OBSERVED THAT THE TELEVISION WAS ON, THE BED APPEARED TO BE MADE AND RUMPLED, THERE WERE TWO OR THREE CANDLES, I BELIEVE, LIT IN THE BEDROOM. THERE WERE LIGHTS ON UPSTAIRS. I WALKED INTO THE BATHROOM AND I OBSERVED TWO OR THREE OTHER CANDLES TO BE LIT AROUND THE TUB.

Q: WOULD YOU SAY THERE WERE LIGHTS ON IN THE MASTER BEDROOM?

A: YES.

Q: AND DID YOU SEE LIGHTS ON IN THE BATHROOM?

A: YES.

Q: IN THE MASTER BEDROOM, SIR, DID YOU SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF RANSACKING?

A: NO.

Q: DID YOU SEE DRAWERS PULLED OUT?

A: NO.

Q: DID YOU SEE ANY JEWELRY SPILLED ON THE FLOOR?

A: NO.

Q: DID YOU SEE ANY SHELVES REMOVED?

A: NO.

Q: ANY CLOTHING IN THE CLOSET SEEMED TO BE DISTURBED OR THROWN ABOUT?

A: NO.

Q: ANY SIGNS OF A STRUGGLE, LIKE DENTS IN THE WALL?

A: NO.

Q: BLOOD ON THE FLOOR?

A: NO.

Q: BLOOD ON THE WALLS?

A: NO.

Q: BLOODY SHOEPRINTS ON THE GROUND, ON THE CARPET?

A: NO.

Q: AND WHAT ABOUT IN THE MASTER BATHROOM? DID YOU NOTICE ANY EVIDENCE OF A STRUGGLE IN THERE, ANY EVIDENCE OF BLOOD?

A: I NOTICED ON STAINING, REDDISH STAINING ON THE THROW RUG IN THE BATHROOM. ASIDE FROM THAT, NO.

Q: DID YOU LATER REQUEST THAT THAT STAINING BE TESTED FOR THE PRESENCE OR ABSENCE OF BLOOD?

A: YES.

Q: AND THE RESULT WAS NEGATIVE?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: DID YOU NOTICE ANY -- ANYTHING DISTURBED IN THE BATHROOM IN THE WAY OF DRAWERS PULLED OUT?

A: NO.

Q: ITEMS THROWN ON THE FLOOR?

A: NO.

Q: ANY BLOODY SHOEPRINTS ON THE FLOOR IN THE BATHROOM?

A: NO.

Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU SAW CANDLES IN THE BATHROOM AS WELL?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: HAD YOU EARLIER SEEN ANY CANDLES IN ANY OTHER PORTION OF THE HOUSE?

A: EARLIER I OBSERVED CANDLES IN THE LIVING ROOM AREA OF THE HOUSE, THE FIRST LEVEL.

Q: THOSE WERE ALSO LIT?

A: YES, THEY WERE.

Q: DID YOU HAVE A DISCUSSION WITH ANYONE ACQUAINTED OR RELATED TO NICOLE BROWN CONCERNING A HABIT OF LIGHTING CANDLES IN THE HOUSE?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT DID YOU LEARN?

MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT. THIS IS HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. AND AFTER YOU LOOKED IN THE MASTER BATHROOM, WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?

A: I PROCEEDED BACK DOWN THE STAIRS AND OUT THE REAR OF THE LOCATION.

Q: DID YOU LOOK INTO ANY OTHER ROOMS UPSTAIRS, OTHER THAN THE --

A: YES, UPSTAIRS I DID LOOK INTO WHAT APPEARED TO BE THE KID'S ROOMS THAT WERE WEST OF THE -- OF THE MAIN BEDROOM, LOOKED IN BOTH OF THOSE ROOMS AND ADJACENT BATHROOM AND THERE WAS A SUNDECK UP ON A THIRD LEVEL THAT I LOOKED AT.

Q: WHAT DID YOU SEE IN THE CHILDREN'S ROOMS?

A: NOTHING REMARKABLE.

Q: ANY EVIDENCE OF RANSACKING?

A: NO.

Q: SIGNS OF A STRUGGLE?

A: NO.

Q: OR BLOOD?

A: NO.

Q: DRAWERS PULLED OUT?

A: NO.

Q: ITEMS THROWN AROUND?

A: NO.

Q: BLOODY SHOEPRINTS?

A: NO.

Q: DID YOU NOTICE ANY LEAVES ON THE FLOOR THAT WERE SIMILAR TO THE LEAVES YOU SAW OUTSIDE THE RESIDENCE?

A: INSIDE THE HOUSE?

Q: RIGHT, INSIDE THE HOUSE?

A: NO.

Q: AND YOU SAID YOU WENT UP TO A SUNROOM ON THE THIRD LEVEL?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT IS THAT? CAN YOU DESCRIBE IT?

A: THERE WAS A SMALL WHAT I WOULD DESCRIBE AS A SUNDECK WITH I BELIEVE A CHAISE LOUNGE.

Q: THAT IS ALL?

A: I BELIEVE THERE WAS A TELEPHONE UP THERE.

Q: ANYTHING ELSE?

A: I DON'T RECALL ANYTHING ELSE BEING UP THERE.

Q: OKAY. DID THAT APPEAR TO BE PART OF THE ROOF OR WAS IT A SEPARATE FLOOR?

A: THERE WAS A STAIR -- A STAIRWELL GOING UP TO IT AND I SUPPOSE IT COULD BE CONSTRUED AS PART OF A ROOF.

Q: DID YOU SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF A DISTURBANCE THERE?

A: NO.

Q: THEN WHAT DID YOU DO, SIR, AFTER YOU WENT TO THAT THIRD LEVEL?

A: AT THAT TIME I PROCEEDED DOWN THE STAIRS TO THE GROUND LEVEL WHERE I EXITED THROUGH THE REAR AND OUT TO THE ALLEY, DOWN THE ALLEY, AND THEN AROUND TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE WHERE I MET MY PARTNER.

Q: SO YOU WENT OUT THROUGH THE GARAGE, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: WHERE WAS IT THAT YOU MET UP WITH YOUR PARTNER?

A: IT WAS IN THE STREET IN FRONT OF THE LOCATION.

Q: AROUND BUNDY AND DOROTHY?

A: IN THAT VICINITY, YES.

Q: YOUR PARTNER WAS?

A: DETECTIVE PHILIP VANNATTER.

Q: AND WAS HE ALONE OUT THERE IN THE STREET WHEN YOU MET HIM?

A: NO, HE WAS WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: I DISCUSSED WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER, AND PHILLIPS WAS THERE, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN, WHAT WE WOULD DO IN RELATION TO THE CRIME SCENE, AND I WAS INFORMED THAT --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO WHAT HE WAS INFORMED; HEARSAY AND NONRESPONSIVE.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU WERE -- WHO TALKED TO YOU? YOU WERE INFORMED OF SOMETHING BY WHO?

A: DETECTIVE VANNATTER.

Q: AND BASED ON WHAT HE TOLD YOU, DID YOU DO SOMETHING?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: WE DECIDED TO GO TO MR. SIMPSON'S RESIDENCE WHERE WE WOULD ATTEMPT TO MAKE A DEATH NOTIFICATION.

Q: OKAY. SO WHAT --

A: AND --

Q: LET ME INTERRUPT YOU, I'M SORRY, BUT WHAT DID DETECTIVE VANNATTER TELL YOU? GOES TO EXPLAIN SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT, YOUR HONOR.

MR. COCHRAN: LIMITED. I DON'T THINK WE HAVE AN OFFER OF PROOF ON THIS, YOUR HONOR. MAY I SPEAK WITH COUNSEL?

THE COURT: YES.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE CONFER WITH THE WITNESS?

THE COURT: CERTAINLY.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN MS. CLARK, MR. COCHRAN AND THE WITNESS.)

THE COURT: MISS CLARK.

MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. THE SUBJECT MATTER TO WHICH THE WITNESS WOULD TESTIFY WOULD CONSTITUTE HEARSAY, BUT WE ARE NOT OFFERING IT FOR THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER. WE ARE ONLY OFFERING IT FOR THE EFFECT ON THE LISTENER TO EXPLAIN SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT.

MR. COCHRAN: IT IS LIMITED FOR THAT PURPOSE. IT IS PROBABLY DOUBLE HEARSAY, BUT FOR THAT PURPOSE I WILL WITHDRAW THE OBJECTION.

THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE EVIDENCE YOU ARE ABOUT TO HEAR, THE STATEMENT THAT WAS MADE TO DETECTIVE LANGE, IS OFFERED TO YOU ONLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF THEN EXPLAINING WHAT DETECTIVE LANGE DID IN RESPONSE TO RECEIVING THAT INFORMATION AND SHOULD BE CONSIDERED BY YOU ONLY FOR THAT LIMITED PURPOSE. MISS CLARK.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DETECTIVE LANGE, YOU INDICATED THAT DETECTIVE VANNATTER TOLD YOU SOMETHING AFTER YOU CAME OUT OF THE CONDOMINIUM AND MET WITH HIM IN THE STREET?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT WAS IT HE TOLD YOU?

A: HE STATED THAT COMMANDER BUSHEY HAD SPOKE WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND WISHED THE DETECTIVES TO MAKE A PERSONAL NOTIFICATION TO MR. SIMPSON REGARDING THE DEATH.

Q: OKAY. SO COMMANDER BUSHEY HAD ORDERED THAT A PERSONAL NOTIFICATION BE MADE TO DEFENDANT SIMPSON AND YOU DISCUSSED THAT WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

A: THAT WAS PART OF THE DISCUSSION, YES.

Q: WHAT WAS THE OTHER PART OF THE DISCUSSION?

A: THAT WE WOULD WANT TO SPEAK WITH MR. SIMPSON, GET SOME TYPE OF AN INITIAL STATEMENT FROM MR. SIMPSON IN REGARD TO OUR INVESTIGATION, TO MEET HIM, TO SEE THAT HIS CHILDREN HAD BEEN PICKED UP AND CARED FOR, AND TO PROBABLY LEAVE FUHRMAN AND PHILLIPS WITH MR. SIMPSON AND RETURN TO THE CRIME SCENE TO DO THE INVESTIGATION.

Q: OKAY. NOW, WHY DID YOU WANT TO GO AND TALK TO MR. SIMPSON? WHAT WERE YOU HOPING TO GET FROM THAT INTERVIEW?

A: WELL, INITIALLY WE DON'T KNOW. ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN A MURDER INVESTIGATION IS TO TALK TO PEOPLE, AND WE CERTAINLY WEREN'T TALKING TO ANYONE ELSE AT THAT POINT. WE KNEW THAT MR. SIMPSON HAD BEEN ESTRANGED FROM MRS. SIMPSON, HE MAY HAVE INFORMATION THAT COULD ASSIST US AT THE CRIME SCENE, DOING THE CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION. I THINK IT WAS IMPORTANT THAT WE MEET MR. SIMPSON, THAT HE SHOULD KNOW WHO WE ARE, BECAUSE WE CERTAINLY WOULD BE WORKING WITH HIM IN THE FUTURE.

Q: AND BY "WORKING WITH HIM," YOU MEAN?

A: IN AN ATTEMPT TO GET BACKGROUND INFORMATION, PERHAPS ON HIS EX-WIFE. AGAIN, WE DON'T KNOW UNTIL WE TALK TO HIM TO GET ANY INFORMATION WE COULD REGARDING HIS EX-WIFE.

Q: FOR EXAMPLE?

A: FOR EXAMPLE, ASSOCIATES.

Q: YOU MEAN FRIENDS OF HERS?

A: FRIENDS, ASSOCIATES, ANY PROBLEMS SHE MAY HAVE BEEN EXPERIENCING IN THE RECENT PAST, ANY THREATS SHE MAY HAVE RECEIVED. WE REALLY DON'T KNOW UNTIL WE SIT DOWN AND SPEAK WITH SOMEONE WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY.

Q: YOU MEAN THREATS SHE MAY HAVE RECEIVED FROM SOMEONE ELSE?

A: YES.

THE COURT: DETECTIVE LANGE, COULD YOU PULL THE MICROPHONE A LITTLE CLOSER TO YOU THERE. TWIST IT UP, IF YOU CAN.

THE WITNESS: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)

THE COURT: THERE YOU GO. WHY DON'T YOU SPEAK RIGHT INTO IT. I'M GETTING HI SIGNS FROM THE JURORS THAT THEY ARE HAVING A HARD TIME HEARING. MISS CLARK.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.

Q: NOW, IS THAT COMMONLY DONE IN YOUR EXPERIENCE AS AN INVESTIGATING OFFICER WITH THE NEXT OF KIN?

A: YES.

Q: AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME, SIR, WERE YOU AWARE OF WHO -- OF WHAT OTHER NEXT OF KIN YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO CONTACT?

A: I HAD NONE.

Q: OKAY. AND WAS THERE ANY INDICATION AS TO THE IDENTIFICATION OF THE MALE VICTIM THAT WE NOW KNOW IS RON GOLDMAN?

A: NO.

Q: DID YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION AS TO THE WHEREABOUTS, IN TERMS OF THE RESIDENCE OF MR. SIMPSON, WITH RELATION TO WHERE YOU WERE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT INFORMATION?

A: THAT HE LIVED A SHORT DISTANCE AWAY AND THAT IT WAS ONLY A FEW MINUTES' DRIVE TIME.

Q: DID THAT PLAY ANY PART IN YOUR DECISION TO GO AND MAKE NOTIFICATION PERSONALLY?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHY?

A: BECAUSE OF THE TIME INVOLVED. IT WAS A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME THAT WE WOULD BE GONE. WE DID WANT TO GET BACK TO THE CRIME SCENE AND CONDUCT THAT INVESTIGATION.

Q: CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, WHO IS COMMANDER BUSHEY?

A: COMMANDER BUSHEY IS THE COMMANDER OF POLICE OF THE WEST BUREAU, LAPD.

Q: WHERE IS HE PLACED IN TERMS OF THE HIERARCHY IN THE LAPD?

A: WELL, A COMMANDER -- WE HAVE FOUR BUREAUS IN THE LAPD AND THE COMMANDER WOULD BE ONE OF TWO COMMANDERS WHO WOULD BE THE NO. 2 MAN OR NO. 2 PERSON WITHIN THAT BUREAU, SO HE WOULD BE RIGHT BELOW A DEPUTY CHIEF.

Q: SO YOU WOULD HAVE -- YOU HAVE CHIEF WILLIAMS, DEPUTY CHIEF AND THEN COMMANDER?

A: ESSENTIALLY. THERE IS A FEW PEOPLE IN BETWEEN, BUT YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AFTER YOU MADE THE DETERMINATION TO GO AND SPEAK TO MR. SIMPSON AND GIVE NOTIFICATION, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN GOT INFORMATION, STATED HE COULD GET INFORMATION ON HOW TO GET TO THE LOCATION. I HAD ASKED FUHRMAN AND PHILLIPS TO GET IN THEIR CAR AND THAT WE WOULD FOLLOW THEM IN OUR CAR UP TO THE LOCATION.

Q: AND DID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN GO AND ATTEMPT TO LOCATE AN ADDRESS FOR THE DEFENDANT?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: SHORTLY AFTER FUHRMAN AND PHILLIPS GOT INTO THEIR POLICE CAR AND VANNATTER AND I GOT INTO OURS AND WE PROCEEDED TO THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, CAN YOU TELL US WHY ALL FOUR OF YOU WENT TO THAT LOCATION?

A: ONCE AGAIN, IT WAS MY INTENT, IF MR. SIMPSON WERE HOME, TO GET SOME TYPE OF AN INITIAL INTERVIEW WITH HIM, ALONG WITH A NOTIFICATIONS AND TO CARE FOR THE CHILDREN, AND IT WAS MY INTENT TO LEAVE PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN BEHIND WITH MR. SIMPSON TO ASSIST HIM IN ANY NOTIFICATIONS OR ANYTHING ELSE THAT HE NEEDED AND FOR VANNATTER AND I TO RETURN TO THE CRIME SCENE TO CONDUCT THE INVESTIGATION.

Q: SO AT THE TIME YOU LEFT FOR 360 ROCKINGHAM, WHAT WAS YOUR INTENT IN TERMS OF HOW LONG YOU WERE GOING TO SPEND THERE AT ROCKINGHAM?

A: AS SHORT A TIME AS POSSIBLE, JUST TO MEET MR. SIMPSON, GET SOME TYPE OF AN INITIAL -- INITIAL RAPPORT WITH HIM, ANY INFORMATION HE MIGHT HAVE AND TO RETURN TO THE BUNDY LOCATION.

Q: OKAY. WHY DO YOU WANT TO ESTABLISH A RAPPORT? WHY DID YOU NEED TO DO THAT?

A: I THINK IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO ESTABLISH A RAPPORT, ESPECIALLY WITH PERSONS WHO ARE CLOSE TO THE VICTIM, TO GET INFORMATION. THEY NEED TO -- TO KNOW YOU. THEY NEED TO HAVE CONFIDENCE IN YOU SO THEY CAN SHARE INFORMATION WITH YOU. ONCE AGAIN, THE ONLY WAY YOU ARE GOING TO LEARN IS BY TALKING TO PEOPLE.

Q: AND I THINK YOU INDICATED EARLIER THAT THE NEXT OF KIN -- NEXT OF KIN IS SOMEBODY YOU WOULD BE WORKING WITH --

MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR.

MS. CLARK: CAN I FINISH THE QUESTION?

THE COURT: YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: THE NEXT OF KIN IS SOMEBODY THAT YOU WOULD BE WORKING WITH THROUGH THE CASE. AND HOW DOES THAT WORK?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHY WOULD THAT BE?

MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED. ALSO HE IS NOT THE NEXT OF KIN.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO WORK WITH THAT FAMILY MEMBER TO GET BACKGROUND INFORMATION ON THE VICTIM, TO GET OTHER INFORMATION AS TO FRIENDS AND ACQUAINTANCES, ANY PERSONAL PROBLEMS THAT THAT VICTIM MIGHT HAVE HAD IN THE PAST. AGAIN, YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW UNTIL YOU SIT DOWN WITH THAT PERSON AND TALK TO THEM.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. IS IT TYPICAL THAT YOU WOULD MAINTAIN AN INVOLVEMENT WITH THE NEXT OF KIN THROUGHOUT A CASE?

A: YES.

THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, COUNSEL. WOULD YOU APPROACH WITHOUT THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE. MR. COCHRAN, MISS CLARK.

(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

THE COURT: COUNSEL. ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CONTINUE.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY. THANK YOU.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU DROVE TO ROCKINGHAM; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: ABOUT HOW LONG DID THAT DRIVE TAKE YOU, SIR?

A: APPROXIMATELY FIVE MINUTES.

Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT ROUTE YOU TOOK?

A: MY RECOLLECTION IS NORTHBOUND ON BUNDY TO I BELIEVE SUNSET, WESTBOUND ON SUNSET TO ROCKINGHAM, AND THEN NORTHBOUND ON ROCKINGHAM.

Q: NOW, WHEN YOU DROVE NORTHBOUND ON ROCKINGHAM, WHAT DID YOU SEE?

A: WE DROVE APPROXIMATELY TWO BLOCKS, VANNATTER AND I WERE BEHIND PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN, AND AS WE APPROACHED THE LOCATION I OBSERVED A WHITE FORD BRONCO PARKED AT THE CURB NEAR WHAT I LATER FOUND TO BE THE ROCKINGHAM GATE.

Q: ANYTHING IN PARTICULAR DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO THAT BRONCO?

A: YES. IT APPEARED TO BE STUCK OUT IN THE STREET SOMEWHAT, THE REAR END. IT APPEARED TO BE -- APPEARED TO BE STUCK OUT IN THE STREET JUST A BIT.

Q: OKAY. I'M SORRY, YOU INDICATED --

A: YES. THE REAR END OF THE BRONCO APPEARED TO BE --

MS. CLARK: WAIT. HOLD ON.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: OUT OF CURIOSITY, WHAT IS THAT? A JUROR: SORRY.

THE COURT: IS IT A CALCULATOR? A JUROR: YEAH, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

THE COURT: IS IT TURNED OFF? A JUROR: YES, IT IS.

THE COURT: THANK YOU.

MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.

Q: I'M SORRY, SIR, I DID NOT HEAR YOUR ANSWER ABOUT WHAT DREW YOUR ATTENTION TO THE BRONCO.

A: IT WAS -- APPEARED TO BE SOMEWHAT -- THE REAR END APPEARED TO BE SOMEWHAT OUT IN THE STREET AND IT WAS PARKED BY ITSELF. THERE WERE NO OTHER VEHICLES AROUND IT.

Q: AND WHERE DID YOU GO AFTER SEEING -- DID YOU DRIVE PASSED THE BRONCO?

A: YES, DROVE PASSED THE BRONCO TO ASHFORD. WE FOLLOWED PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN TURNING EASTBOUND ONTO ASHFORD WHERE THEY PULLED TO THE CURB JUST WEST OF THE ASHFORD GATE. MY PARTNER AND I PULLED BEHIND THEM AND PARKED AT THE CURB.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NO. 64.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 64, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT IS SHOWN IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?

A: YES. THAT IS WHAT I TERM THE ASHFORD GATE AT 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM.

Q: THAT IS THE ASHFORD GATE YOU SAID?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHERE IN RELATION TO THE ASHFORD GATE DID YOU PARK?

A: TO THE RIGHT OF THAT LOCATION AT THE CURB.

Q: AS SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?

A: YES.

Q: SO IT WOULD BE TO THE RIGHT AS WE FACE IT?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, IF YOU CAN, TELL US, SIR, ABOUT WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU GOT THERE?

A: APPROXIMATELY 5:05 A.M.

Q: NOW, DO YOU SEE A CAR PARKED JUST TO THE EAST OF THE ASHFORD GATE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: ON ASHFORD?

A: YES.

Q: AND DID YOU SEE THAT CAR PARKED IN THAT POSITION THERE THAT NIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: DID YOU DETERMINE WHOSE CAR THAT WAS?

A: YES.

Q: WHOSE?

A: THE VEHICLE WAS REGISTERED TO KATO KAELIN.

Q: IT APPEARS TO BE A BLACK VEHICLE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH. WERE YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE WHAT KIND IT IS?

A: I DON'T RECALL. IT WAS A THUNDERBIRD, I BELIEVE.

Q: AFTER YOU PARKED YOUR CARS, WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?

A: I PROCEEDED TOWARD THE ASHFORD GATE BEHIND PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN AND I OBSERVED I BELIEVE IT WAS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WALK TO A -- WHAT APPEARED TO BE AN INTERCOM ON THE GATE, TO THE LEFT OF THE GATE AS YOU ARE LOOKING AT THIS PHOTOGRAPH, AND ATTEMPT TO ROUSE SOMEONE INSIDE THE RESIDENCE THROUGH THE INTERCOM.

Q: AND AFTER THEY RANG FOR THE FIRST TIME, WAS THERE ANY RESPONSE?

A: NO. THERE WERE TWO OR THREE ATTEMPTS BY PHILLIPS AND I BELIEVE FUHRMAN MAY HAVE MADE AN ATTEMPT ALSO.

Q: AND WAS THERE ANY RESPONSE TO ANY OF THOSE ATTEMPTS?

A: NO.

Q: SO HOW MANY -- HOW MANY TIMES DID THEY TRY TO RAISE SOMEBODY BY PUSHING THE BUZZER AT THE GATE?

A: I THINK AT LEAST THREE, PERHAPS -- PERHAPS MORE.

Q: DID YOU HAPPEN TO OBSERVE WHETHER THERE WERE ANY CARS IN THE DRIVEWAY?

A: THERE APPEARED TO BE A VEHICLE PARKED ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE DRIVEWAY WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN FACING HEADING TO THE WEST TOWARDS THE ROCKINGHAM GATE.

Q: AND DID YOU NOTICE WHETHER THERE WERE ANY LIGHTS ON IN THE HOUSE?

A: THERE WAS ONE LIGHT ON THAT I COULD SEE THAT APPEARED TO BE EMANATING FROM SOMEWHERE BETWEEN THE FIRST AND THE SECOND LEVEL -- THROUGH THE FIRST AND SECOND LEVEL WINDOWS.

Q: DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING ELSE OUTSIDE THE GATE THAT DREW YOUR ATTENTION?

A: OUTSIDE THE GATE?

Q: OUTSIDE THE GATE.

A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

Q: LET ME DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION, SIR. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CAN SEE ON THE SCREEN WHERE I'M POINTING TO. IF YOU COULD LOOK UP AT THE SCREEN?

A: REFERRING TO THE WESTEC SIGN?

Q: I AM.

A: YES.

Q: IS THAT A WESTEC SIGN?

A: YES.

Q: DID YOU NOTICE IT THERE THAT NIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT IS WESTEC, SIR?

A: WESTEC IS A SECURITY SERVICE, A RESIDENCE -- I BELIEVE PRIMARILY A RESIDENTIAL SECURITY SERVICE IN THE BRENTWOOD AREA.

Q: DID ONE OF YOU HAVE A CELL PHONE THAT NIGHT?

A: YES, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.

Q: AND DID HE ATTEMPT TO USE IT TO CONTACT WESTEC?

A: YES. I BELIEVE HE FIRST ATTEMPTED TO CONTACT THE WATCH COMMANDER AT WEST LOS ANGELES DIVISION IN AN ATTEMPT FOR HIM TO CONTACT WESTEC.

Q: AND DO YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW WHAT TIME HE CALLED THE WATCH COMMANDER FOR THAT PURPOSE?

A: I BELIEVE IT MUST HAVE BEEN APPROXIMATELY AT 5:10 A.M.

MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE PHONE NUMBER FOR THE PRIVATE LINE TO THE WATCH COMMANDER AT WEST L.A.?

A: IF I SAW IT, I WOULD PROBABLY KNOW IT.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 61, SIR, WOULD YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE THAT PHONE NUMBER?

A: YES, I BELIEVE THAT IS THE PRIVATE NUMBER OF THE WATCH COMMANDER.

Q: AT WEST L.A. DIVISION?

A: YES.

Q: SO WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS ATTEMPTING TO CONTACT WESTEC. AFTER HE HAD FINISHED HE MENTIONED SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT THAT --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO WHAT HE MENTIONED. APPEARS TO BE HEARSAY.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

THE WITNESS: I WAS INFORMED THAT --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO WHAT HE WAS INFORMED.

THE COURT: HOLD ON, DETECTIVE LANGE. MISS CLARK, ASK ANOTHER QUESTION, PLEASE.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: HOLD ON. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, DID HE INFORM YOU OF SOMETHING, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: DID THAT SOMETHING CAUSE YOU TO DO SOMETHING ELSE?

A: WELL, YES.

MS. CLARK: I ASK THAT I IT BE ADMITTED TO EXPLAIN SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT, YOUR HONOR.

MR. COCHRAN: HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR. JUST TELL US WHAT HE DID.

THE COURT: WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER YOU RECEIVED THIS INFORMATION?

THE WITNESS: BASICALLY I DID NOTHING AFTER THE INITIAL INFORMATION. THAT LED TO SOMETHING.

THE COURT: MISS CLARK, NEXT QUESTION.

MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.

Q: YOU RECEIVED SOME INFORMATION, DID YOU, FROM DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: AND AFTER YOU RECEIVED THAT INFORMATION WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: I OBSERVED A WESTEC PATROL VEHICLE SOUTH BUNDY ON ROCKINGHAM APPROACHING ASHFORD AND I OBSERVED DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAVE THE VEHICLE DOWN IN THE STREET AND WALK OVER TO THE VEHICLE AND TALK WITH THE -- WITH THE DRIVER, THE SECURITY GUARD.

Q: AND DID THAT WESTEC UNIT THEN REMAIN THERE?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, WHILE THAT WAS OCCURRING, WHILE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS MAKING PHONE CALLS ON HIS CELL PHONE AND THE WESTEC UNIT ARRIVED, DID YOU OBSERVE ANY OTHER ACTIVITY BY ONE OF THE DETECTIVES OCCURRING?

A: YES. I OBSERVED DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WALK SOUTH ON ROCKINGHAM TOWARDS THE BRONCO THAT I HAD ALLUDED TO EARLIER, AND APPROACH THE DRIVER'S SIDE WHERE I SAW HIM LOOKING AT THE VEHICLE --

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

THE WITNESS: -- FOR A FEW MOMENTS AND THEN WALK BACK TOWARDS MY -- MY LOCATION, WHICH AT THE TIME WAS IN THE INTERSECTION OF ROCKINGHAM AND ASHFORD.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: YET YOU WERE -- WHERE WERE YOU POSITIONED AS YOU MADE THE OBSERVATIONS CONCERNING DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

A: I WAS IN THE -- LIKE I SAID, IN THE INTERSECTION AROUND ASHFORD, THE INTERSECTION OF ASHFORD AND ROCKINGHAM.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, THIS IS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NO. 63.

THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 63.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. SHOWING YOU, SIR, PEOPLE'S 63, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE LOCATION SHOWN THERE?

A: YES. THAT IS LOOKING IN ALMOST A WESTERLY -- I'M SORRY, ALMOST A SOUTHERLY DIRECTION TOWARD THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION.

Q: ALL RIGHT. THE STREET THAT IS COMING TO THE -- THAT DISAPPEARS INTO THE LEFT-HAND LOWER CORNER OF THE PHOTOGRAPH, WHAT STREET IS THAT?

A: THAT IS ASHFORD.

Q: AND THE STREET THAT IT INTERSECTS WITH THAT ACTUALLY DEAD ENDS -- EXCUSE ME. LET ME REASK THAT QUESTION.

THE STREET ON WHICH YOU SEE A CAR PARKED THAT DISAPPEARS INTO THE LEFT-HAND SIDE OF THE PHOTOGRAPH AS YOU FACE IT IS WHAT STREET?

A: THIS IS ASHFORD STREET.

Q: THE STREET THAT IT INTERSECTS WITH AS IT DISAPPEARS IN THE LOWER LEFT-HAND CORNER AS YOU FACE THE PHOTOGRAPH IS WHAT?

A: ROCKINGHAM.

Q: AND DO YOU SEE THE CORNER OF THE DEFENDANT'S PROPERTY THAT IS SORT OF TO THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE OF THE PHOTOGRAPH AS YOU LOOK AT IT?

A: YES.

Q: IS THAT WHERE YOU WERE?

A: YES.

Q: THERE SEEMS TO BE A WHITE OBJECT AT THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE PHOTOGRAPH AS YOU FACE IT.

A: YES.

Q: A PIECE OF SOMETHING WHITE?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT IS THAT?

A: I BELIEVE THAT IS THE WHITE BRONCO.

Q: IS THIS A PHOTOGRAPH THAT DEPICTS THE LOCATION ON JUNE THE 13TH?

A: YES.

Q: WHERE WERE YOU POSITIONED, IF YOU CAN TELL US, BASED ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH?

A: BASED ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH MORE OR LESS IN THE INTERSECTION TOWARDS THE PARKWAY, I GUESS PERHAPS IN THE RIGHT -- MIDDLE RIGHT THIRD OF THIS PHOTOGRAPH IN THE STREET.

Q: MIDDLE RIGHT THIRD? HOW ABOUT IF WE HAVE OUR TRUSTY POINT MAKER. IF YOU CAN GUIDE THE ARROW, SIR, INDICATE WHERE YOU WERE.

A: OKAY. MORE TO THE RIGHT. PROBABLY THAT IS A LITTLE TOO MUCH. BACK RIGHT ABOUT THERE, (INDICATING), MAYBE DOWN A BIT, SOMEWHERE IN THAT GENERAL VICINITY RIGHT THERE, (INDICATING).

MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. COULD WE PUT AN "X" THERE. WELL, OKAY.

Q: IS THAT ABOUT RIGHT?

A: APPROXIMATELY -- APPROXIMATELY THAT AREA.

MS. CLARK: IF WE COULD PUT "T.L." THANK YOU. AND IF THIS COULD BE ANNOUNCED PEOPLE'S --

THE COURT: 63-A.

MS. CLARK: 63-A. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. SO FROM THAT VANTAGE POINT WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE IN TERMS OF THE ACTIVITY BY THE DETECTIVES ON ASHFORD AND ON ROCKINGHAM?

MR. COCHRAN: HE HAS ALREADY TOLD US THAT, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, SMALL CORRECTION. THIS WOULD BE 63-C.

THE COURT: 63-C.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.

(PEO'S 63-C FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

THE WITNESS: I OBSERVED DETECTIVE FUHRMAN DOWN NEAR THE WHITE BRONCO IN THE RIGHT OF THE PHOTO. THE WESTEC VEHICLE WAS PROBABLY JUST THIS SIDE OF THE "X" FACING SOUTHBOUND. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN THERE AND THE ASHFORD GATE. I BELIEVE DETECTIVE VANNATTER WAS IN MY VICINITY ALSO.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WERE YOU ABLE TO ALSO OBSERVE WHAT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WAS DOING?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT WAS HE DOING?

A: I OBSERVED HIM LOOKING AT THE WHITE BRONCO.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: FUHRMAN WALKED UP THE STREET NORTH ON ROCKINGHAM TOWARDS ME AND MENTIONED THAT HE --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO WHAT HE MENTIONED; HEARSAY.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

MS. CLARK: I ASK THAT IT BE ADMITTED EXPLAIN SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT.

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, STILL HEARSAY. HE CAN TELL US WHAT HE DID AFTER THAT, IF ANYTHING.

THE COURT: DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH SOMETHING OBSERVED ON THE BRONCO?

MS. CLARK: THAT'S RIGHT.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE OBJECTION WILL BE OVERRULED. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, HOWEVER, THIS STATEMENT COMES IN ONLY TO EXPLAIN WHAT DETECTIVE LANGE DID IN RESPONSE TO HEARING THIS INFORMATION. MISS CLARK.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.

Q: AND WHAT DID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN TELL YOU?

A: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN STATED THAT HE BELIEVED THERE WAS BLOOD ON THE DOOR OF THE BRONCO.

Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER YOU HEARD THAT?

A: I PROCEEDED TO THE BRONCO WITH FUHRMAN AND HE POINTED TO A REDDISH STAIN ABOVE THE DOOR HANDLE ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, PEOPLE'S 62, 62-A, 62-B, 62-C.

MS. CLARK: OKAY. YOU CAN DO IT HERE.

Q: DO YOU SEE THE BRONCO THAT YOU DESCRIBED, SIR, PARKED AT THE ROCKINGHAM GATE ON JUNE 13 IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS?

A: YES.

Q: IS THAT THE ONE YOU DESCRIBED?

A: YES.

Q: AND DO YOU RECALL SEEING THE BLOOD THAT -- LITTLE SPOT THAT IS BEING SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?

A: YES. THAT APPEARS TO BE THE SAME SPOT.

Q: OKAY.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 63-D -- 62-D, 62-E, 62-F.

MS. CLARK: GOING BACK TO 62-E FOR A MOMENT, AND THEN 62-F.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 62-F.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU HAPPEN TO MAKE OBSERVATIONS CONCERNING WHAT WAS INSIDE THE REAR CARGO AREA OF THE BRONCO?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT DID YOU OBSERVE?

A: I OBSERVED A PACKAGE WITH A LABEL ON IT, I BELIEVE, "O.J. SIMPSON ENTERPRISES," AND THE "DAN MARINO FOUNDATION," AND I BELIEVE IT WAS A SHOVEL IN THE BACK.

Q: AFTER MAKING THOSE OBSERVATIONS, SIR, WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?

A: I RECALL WALKING BACK TOWARDS THE ASHFORD GATE AND TALKING TO VANNATTER AND PHILLIPS. IT WAS AT THAT TIME I WAS TOLD SOMETHING ABOUT WHO MAY OR MAY NOT BE IN THE RESIDENCE THAT WAS -- I'M SORRY.

MS. CLARK: THAT IS OKAY.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 64.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU WENT BACK TO THE ASHFORD GATE, SIR?

A: I WAS IN THAT VICINITY.

Q: OKAY. AND WHO WAS IT YOU HAD A CONVERSATION WITH?

A: IT WASN'T NECESSARILY A CONVERSATION. PHILLIPS HAD WALKED TOWARDS ME AND VANNATTER HAD MADE A STATEMENT.

Q: WAS THAT STATEMENT CONCERNING A MAID INSIDE THE HOUSE?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT DID YOU LEARN?

A: THAT THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A MAID ON THE PREMISES.

Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: PHILLIPS HAD BEEN IN CONTACT WITH WEST L.A. DIVISION AND HAD RECEIVED A PHONE NUMBER OF THE RESIDENCE, I BELIEVE, THROUGH WESTEC. AND PHILLIPS ATTEMPTED TO PHONE THE RESIDENCE WITH A CELLULAR PHONE.

Q: AND AFTER DETECTIVE PHILLIPS CALLED THE DEFENDANT'S HOME PHONE NUMBER, WHAT HAPPENED?

A: I COULD HEAR THE PHONE RINGING FROM THE STREET. PHILLIPS STATED TO ME THAT THE --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO WHAT PHILLIPS SAID. IT IS HEARSAY.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU LEARN WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS ANY RESPONSE, ANYONE PICKED UP THE PHONE?

A: NO ONE PICKED UP THE PHONE.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: I DISCUSSED WITH PHILLIPS AND VANNATTER AND FUHRMAN WHAT WE HAD AND THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW MR. SIMPSON'S WHEREABOUTS. THERE WAS SUPPOSEDLY A HOUSEKEEPER, A MAID THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ON THE PREMISES. WE HAD A LIGHT ON IN THE HOUSE. WE AT THIS TIME OBSERVED TWO VEHICLES IN THE DRIVEWAY. WE HAD WHAT APPEARED TO BE BLOOD ON THE VEHICLE PARKED, IN MY OPINION, AT A FUNNY ANGLE IN THE STREET. WE HAD JUST LEFT THE CRIME SCENE. WE DISCUSSED CERTAIN -- CERTAIN EXIGENCY THAT WE MIGHT HAVE FELT EXISTED. I FELT THAT SOMEONE INSIDE THAT HOUSE MAY BE THE VICTIM OF A CRIME, MAY BE BLEEDING OR WORSE. WE COULD RAISE NO ONE AT THE LOCATION SO WE DECIDED TO GO IN.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: I LOOKED AT THE GATE, APPEARED TO BE A HYDRAULIC GATE. FUHRMAN WAS STANDING CLOSEST TO THE LEFT SIDE OF THE GATE. HE SAID, "I CAN GO OVER THE WALL." I SAID, "OKAY, GO." HE AT THIS TIME WENT OVER THE WALL, STEPPED TO HIS RIGHT AND MANUALLY PULLED THE HYDRAULIC GATE OPENED.

MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: YES.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, AT THE POINT THAT --

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AT THE POINT THAT YOU ASKED DETECTIVE FUHRMAN TO GO OVER THE WALL, SIR, WHAT -- WHAT WERE YOUR CHOICES? WHAT WERE YOUR OPTIONS IN TERMS OF WHAT TO DO IN TERMS OF -- LET ME TRY AND DO THAT AGAIN.

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.

MS. CLARK: WELL, HOW COULD -- ME, TOO.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. STIPULATE.

THE COURT: MISS CLARK.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: IN LIGHT OF ALL THAT YOU KNEW AT THAT POINT IN TIME, WHAT WERE YOUR CHOICES? WHAT COULD YOU DO?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT ALSO. IT IS IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL WHAT HIS CHOICES WERE.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: WE COULD EITHER ENTER THE GROUNDS IN AN ATTEMPT TO FIND POSSIBLE VICTIMS, MR. SIMPSON, OR WE COULD LEAVE AND GO BACK AND CONDUCT THE CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION.

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT GOES TO MY OBJECTION. THOSE AREN'T ALL THE ALTERNATIVES.

THE COURT: COUNSEL, THERE IS CROSS-EXAMINATION. I'M SURE YOU WILL TELL HIM SOME OTHERS.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. I HAVE TO WAIT? OKAY.

THE COURT: THAT IS THE WAY IT NORMALLY WORKS.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.

THE COURT: MISS CLARK.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: SO YOU COULD EITHER STAY OR GO BACK TO BUNDY?

MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

MS. CLARK: I HAVEN'T FINISHED THE QUESTION.

THE COURT: HE JUST TOLD US THAT.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU -- OKAY. YOU MADE THE CHOICE TO STAY THERE?

A: YES. IT WAS A MUTUAL CHOICE WITH MY PARTNER AND MYSELF.

Q: OKAY. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: I ENTERED THE LOCATION WITH PHILLIPS AND VANNATTER AND WITH THE FOUR OF US WALKED TOWARD THE FRONT DOOR. WE OBSERVED A DOG LYING IN THE DRIVEWAY. HE DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE THREATENING. WE WALKED PAST THE DOG TO THE FRONT DOOR AND I BELIEVE IT WAS PHILLIPS OR VANNATTER WHO KNOCKED ON THE FRONT DOOR SEVERAL TIMES. WE GOT NO RESPONSE. WE MOVED TO THE EAST OF THE ENTRANCE TO A WALKWAY THAT LED US TO THE REAR OF THE LOCATION.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SIR, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO INDICATE ON THE -- ON THE BOARD FOR THE JURY WHERE YOU WENT AFTER YOU ENTERED THE PROPERTY. THE DECISION TO ENTER THE PROPERTY AT THAT TIME WAS MADE BY WHO?

A: BY MYSELF AND MY PARTNER.

Q: DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

A: SIMULTANEOUSLY. YEAH, VANNATTER, YES.

Q: AND SO DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WENT OVER THE WALL AT YOUR REQUEST?

A: WELL --

MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: THIS IS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 66.

THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 66.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WOULD YOU STEP DOWN, SIR, WITH YOUR POINTER. FIRST LET ME ASK YOU THIS: IN TERMS OF THE FOUR DETECTIVES THERE, WHO WAS THE MOST SENIOR, IF YOU KNOW?

A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

Q: AT THE -- I MEAN IF YOU KNOW NOW?

A: SENIOR ON THE DEPARTMENT WOULD BE -- THERE IS TWO TYPES OF SENIORITY; THOSE WHO GET PROMOTED BEFORE OTHERS AND THOSE WHO HAVE MORE TENURE. AS FAR AS TENURE IT WOULD BE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS. AS FAR AS SENIOR IN RANK, WHO WAS PROMOTED THE FIRST, IT WOULD BE VANNATTER.

Q: WHO WAS THE MOST JUNIOR DETECTIVE THERE?

A: FUHRMAN.

Q: DID YOU KNOW THAT THAT NIGHT?

A: NO.

Q: WHO WAS THE YOUNGEST ONE THERE?

A: PROBABLY FUHRMAN.

Q: DID YOU KNOW THAT THAT NIGHT?

A: HE APPEARED TO BE THAT WAY, YES.

Q: OKAY. COULD YOU PLEASE SHOW US THE PATH YOU TOOK AFTER YOU ENTERED THE PROPERTY.

A: WE ENTERED HERE AT THE ASHFORD GATE, (INDICATING). THE FOUR OF US WALKED DOWN THE DRIVEWAY IN THIS DIRECTION GOING SOUTH, (INDICATING), INTO THIS FRONT ENTRANCE AREA WHERE THE FRONT DOOR IS, (INDICATING). THIS IS WHERE THE KNOCKING OCCURRED. THERE WAS NO RESPONSE. SO THE FOUR OF US WALKED BACK OUT AND AROUND TO THIS WALKWAY, (INDICATING), WHICH IS JUST, I BELIEVE, NORTH OF THE RESIDENCE, AND WALKED TO THE REAR OF THE LOCATION ON THIS WALKWAY COMING INTO THIS REAR PORTION AREA, (INDICATING), JUST A COUPLE OF STEPS UP THE PORCH, WALKED ACROSS THE PORCH, DOWN INTO THIS PATIO AREA, (INDICATING), DOWN INTO THIS VICINITY HERE, (INDICATING). I OBSERVED A GLASS DOOR. I BELIEVE IT WAS THIS ONE HERE, (INDICATING). I WALKED UP TO THIS DOOR AND RAPPED ON THE DOOR ATTEMPTING TO RAISE SOMEONE INSIDE. I GOT NO RESPONSE.

Q: SO AT THIS POINT, AFTER YOU HAVE KNOCKED ON THE FRONT DOOR AND THE BACK DOOR WITH GETTING NO RESPONSE, WHERE DID YOU GO?

A: I STEPPED BACK TOWARDS PHILLIPS, VANNATTER AND FUHRMAN WHO HAD WALKED TOWARDS THIS LOCATION HERE, (INDICATING), THAT APPEARED TO BE GUEST HOUSES OR BUNGALOWS, AND I WALKED -- I BELIEVE I WAS BEHIND PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN WALKING DOWN THE STEPS TO THIS FRONT ROOM LABELED "KAELIN'S ROOM, (INDICATING).

Q: AND WHEN YOU GOT TO KAELIN'S ROOM, WHAT HAPPENED?

A: I BELIEVE IT WAS FUHRMAN WHO KNOCKED ON THE DOOR AND STATED, "THERE APPEARS TO BE SOMEBODY INSIDE." HE KNOCKED AGAIN AND MR. KAELIN OPENED THE DOOR.

Q: AND WHERE WERE YOU AT THE TIME?

A: I WAS TO THE REAR OF PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN, PROBABLY ON THIS WALKWAY RIGHT IN HERE, (INDICATING).

Q: WERE ALL FOUR OF YOU DETECTIVES PRETTY MUCH STANDING TOGETHER OR WERE YOU SPREAD OUT? WHAT WAS -- WHERE WAS EVERYONE?

A: I BELIEVE VANNATTER WAS UP IN THIS AREA STILL BEHIND US, (INDICATING), AND THIS IS A FAIRLY NARROW WALKWAY, AND MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN WERE IN FRONT OF ME AND I WAS STANDING BEHIND.

Q: AND AFTER MR. KAELIN ANSWERED THE DOOR, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU MADE ANY OBSERVATIONS OF HIS CONDITION?

A: HE APPEARED TO HAVE JUST WOKEN UP. HE HAD A DISHEVELED APPEARANCE, APPEARED TO BE PRETTY GROGGY.

Q: DID SOMEONE ASK WHO HE WAS?

A: YES. FUHRMAN ASKED -- ASKED WHO HE WAS AND IF HE LIVED THERE, SOMETHING TO THIS EFFECT.

Q: OKAY. YOU GO AHEAD AND HAVE A SEAT.

A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)

MS. CLARK: YOU CAN TAKE IT DOWN.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: MADAM REPORTER, HOW ARE YOU DOING? ALL RIGHT. WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BRIEF RECESS AT THIS POINT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITION TO YOU. DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONG YOURSELVES, DON'T FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, DON'T CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU, DON'T ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU REGARDING THIS CASE. WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A 15-MINUTE RECESS THIS MORNING. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO STEP BACK IN THE JURY ROOM, PLEASE. ALL RIGHT. WE WILL STAND IN RECESS FOR FIFTEEN.

(RECESS.)

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. ALL COUNSEL ARE AGAIN PRESENT. COUNSEL, IS THERE SOMETHING WE NEED TO DISCUSS ABOUT THE TESTING PROTOCOL?

MR. SCHECK: YOUR HONOR, I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR TIMING IS, BUT I THINK THAT IT'S COMPLICATED AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WOULD WANT TO DO IT RIGHT NOW. I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S ANY --

THE COURT: WELL, IS TIME OF THE ESSENCE SINCE WE HAVE A WITNESS ON THE STAND OR IS THERE SOMETHING WE CAN DO ONCE WE --

MR. COCHRAN: I THINK WE CAN TAKE THIS UP LATER.

MR. SCHECK: IT'S GOING TO TAKE A WHILE TO DISCUSS.

MR. COCHRAN: MAY MARSHA AND I HAVE A MOMENT WITH THESE TWO GENTLEMEN?

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, WOULD YOU GIVE US ANOTHER MINUTE OR SO? WE'RE TRYING TO SAVE THE COURT TIME.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

THE COURT: MISS CLARK, HAVE WE RESOLVED THIS?

MS. CLARK: I COULD. WITH THIS WITNESS, WE'RE GOING TO NEED A CERTAIN LIST OF ITEMS OF EVIDENCE. I DO NOT KNOW WHETHER THEY ARE INCLUDED IN THE LIST THAT THE DEFENSE NOW WANTS TO TAKE FOR FURTHER TESTING. AND I UNDERSTAND THAT THEY HAVE SOME LONG-RANGED PLANS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. SO --

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: I THINK WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN, YOUR HONOR, IS THAT COUNSEL ARE GOING TO NEED TO TALK TO YOUR HONOR IN CHAMBERS AT SOME POINT AND TO CONTINUE THE EVIDENCE, AND WE CAN DO IT AT EITHER LUNCH TIME OR HAVE THE JURY COME BACK A LITTLE BIT LATER THIS AFTERNOON. WE CAN SAVE SOMETIME BY SPEAKING WITH YOU AND WORK THIS ISSUE OUT. BUT YOU NEED TO CARVE OUT SOME TIME I THINK FOR IT.

MS. CLARK: IT WON'T BE RESOLVED IN 15 MINUTES I DON'T THINK.

THE COURT: YOU WANT TO TELL ME SPECIFICALLY WHAT IT IS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AT THIS POINT?

MS. CLARK: I'VE BEEN SPECIFIC AS I CAN BE. IT'S REALLY THE DEFENSE THAT HAS NOT PUT INTO WRITING YET WHAT ITEMS THEY ARE ABOUT TO REQUEST.

MR. SCHECK: SHOULD WE APPROACH THE BENCH OR DO YOU WANT TO --

THE COURT: NO. WHY DON'T YOU JUST TELL ME RIGHT NOW.

MR. SCHECK: YEAH. I THINK THAT THE -- THERE'S ISSUES WITH RESPECT TO ITEMS THAT WE HAVE EXAMINED ALREADY THAT I ANTICIPATE THEY WOULD BE PUTTING INTO EVIDENCE SOON BECAUSE OBSERVATIONS WERE MADE, DIFFERENT PIECES OF TRACE EVIDENCE WERE SECURED FROM THOSE ITEMS AND SEGREGATED, SINCE WE WEREN'T ALLOWED TO TEST ANYTHING, BUT JUST EXAMINE IT FOR FURTHER COMPARISON AND POTENTIALLY TESTING. THEN THERE IS THE LOGISTICS OF WORKING OUT ARRANGEMENTS TO EXAMINE OTHER ITEMS THAT THE PROSECUTION IS ANTICIPATING PUT INTO EVIDENCE, AND, AS THE COURT KNOWS, THAT'S A LONGER DISCUSSION. MY SUGGESTION IS THAT WE PROBABLY CAN DEAL WITH THIS IN CHAMBERS AT THE END OF THE DAY BECAUSE IT AGAIN IS GOING TO INVOLVE WHAT THE PROSECUTION INTENDS TO INTRODUCE AND WHEN THEY INTEND TO INTRODUCE IT SO THAT WE CAN LOOK AT IT BEFORE THEY DO THAT, WHERE THAT WOULD TAKE PLACE, WHEN THAT WOULD TAKE PLACE AND WHAT THE TIMING OF IT IS.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WELL, MISS CLARK, THEN CAN YOU PROCEED WITH YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION WITH DETECTIVE LANGE FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE MORNING WITHOUT ANY NEED TO ADDRESS ANY OF THESE ISSUES?

MS. CLARK: YES, I BELIEVE I CAN, YOUR HONOR. I DO WANT TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO FULLY ADDRESS THE COURT CONCERNING THIS MOST RECENT REQUEST BY THE DEFENSE. I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY TIMES THEY WANT TO LOOK AT ALL OF THIS EVIDENCE AND AT THE ELEVENTH HOUR AS THEY HAVE. MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT EVERYTHING HAS BEEN EXAMINED BY THEM, AND SO WE COME TO A POINT --

THE COURT: WELL, THE AGREEMENT WAS THAT THEY COULD EXAMINE IT, BUT NOT TEST IT. THAT WAS THE AGREEMENT OVER THE WEEKEND.

MS. CLARK: UH-HUH. BUT WE KEEP SENDING EVIDENCE OUT AND I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THROWING IT ALL OVER THE COUNTRY DOES NOT --

THE COURT: LET ME ASK YOU, MISS CLARK, WILL YOU BE ABLE TO PROCEED AND CONCLUDE THE COURT DAY THIS AFTERNOON WITHOUT ANY OF THE -- ANY DIFFICULTIES REGARDING THE PRESENTATION OF THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE?

MS. CLARK: THAT I DON'T KNOW. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. IF I COULD ASSURE THE COURT OF THAT, I WOULDN'T TAKE TIME TO DO THIS NOW.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S DO THIS NOW. LET'S CONCLUDE THE MORNING SESSION. OVER THE LUNCH HOUR, I'LL HAVE COUNSEL TO CONFER. WHEN WE COME BACK AT 1:30, IF THERE'S ANYTHING THAT NEEDS TO BE RESOLVED, WE WILL TAKE IT UP AT THAT POINT.

MS. CLARK: OKAY.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. AND IF I COULD ASK MR. SCHECK AND MR. BLASIER, MR. CLARKE AND MR. HARMON, IF YOU COULD -- AND, MR. HODGMAN AND MR. YOCHELSON, PERHAPS IF YOU GENTLEMEN COULD CONFER WHILE COUNT IS IN SESSION WITH THE JURY ON OTHER MATTERS, PERHAPS WE CAN NARROW DOWN THE AREAS OF INQUIRY. I SEE NODS. ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. LET'S HAVE THE JURY, PLEASE.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED. LET THE RECORD REFLECT WE'VE NOW BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL. DETECTIVE TOM LANGE IS STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND ON DIRECT EXAMINATION. GOOD MORNING AGAIN, DETECTIVE LANGE. YOU ARE REMINDED THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH.

THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CONTINUE WITH YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, DETECTIVE LANGE, I BELIEVE YOU INDICATED THAT YOU HAD JUST MADE CONTACT WITH KATO KAELIN AND THAT SOMEONE HAD ASKED WHO HE WAS AND HE GAVE HIS IDENTITY, HIS NAME TO YOU?

A: YES. THAT WAS DETECTIVE FUHRMAN THAT WAS SPEAKING WITH KAELIN.

Q: NOW, AT THAT TIME, DID ANY OF YOU ASK HIM WHERE THE DEFENDANT WAS?

A: I BELIEVE PHILLIPS ASKED SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT AND KATO DIDN'T REALLY HAVE A RESPONSE. HE REALLY DIDN'T KNOW, DIDN'T APPEAR TO KNOW.

Q: DID HE -- DID KATO ASK YOU WHY YOU WERE THERE?

A: I DON'T RECALL HIM ASKING.

Q: DID YOU TELL HIM WHY YOU WERE THERE?

A: NO.

Q: WHY NOT?

A: I DIDN'T KNOW WHO KAELIN WAS. THE OTHER DETECTIVES DIDN'T KNOW WHO HE WAS. HE WAS NOT A FAMILY MEMBER. WE JUST DIDN'T HAVE HIM IDENTIFIED PROPERLY. WE KNEW HIS NAME, BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE HIM IDENTIFIED.

Q: AND SO NOT HAVING HAD HIM IDENTIFIED, WHY WOULD YOU NOT WANT TO TELL HIM WHY YOU WERE THERE?

A: POSSIBLE SUSPECT.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: FUHRMAN SPOKE WITH KAELIN AND ASKED HIM IF HE WAS WEARING -- WHERE THE SHOES WERE HE WAS WEARING LAST NIGHT, SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT, IF HE COULD LOOK AT THEM, AND KAELIN STATED SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. AT THAT TIME, I BELIEVE IT WAS PHILLIPS WHO ASKED IF THERE WAS ANYONE ELSE IN THE AREA AND KAELIN STATED THAT ARNELLE WAS NEXT DOOR, INDICATING THAT THAT WAS MR. SIMPSON'S DAUGHTER.

Q: SO KATO LET DETECTIVE FUHRMAN LOOK AT HIS SHOES?

A: YES.

Q: AND SO DID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN STEP INTO THE ROOM WITH MR. KAELIN?

A: YES.

Q: AT THAT POINT, WHAT DID THE THREE OF YOU DO?

A: I WAS STILL OUT IN THE -- ON THE WALKWAY. PHILLIPS PROCEEDED DOWN THE WALKWAY TO THE NEXT ROOM OVER AND I WAS BEHIND HIM, AND PHILLIPS HAD KNOCKED ON THAT DOOR AND A SHORT TIME LATER ARNELLE SIMPSON APPEARED.

Q: NOW, DURING THAT TIME, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WAS WHERE?

A: HE WAS IN KAELIN'S ROOM.

Q: AND WAS THERE A CONVERSATION THAT TOOK PLACE BETWEEN ARNELLE SIMPSON AND ONE OF THE DETECTIVES?

A: YES. I BELIEVE INITIALLY WITH PHILLIPS AND THEN VANNATTER SHORTLY AFTER.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, AT THAT POINT, DID ARNELLE SIMPSON ASK YOU ANY QUESTIONS?

A: YES. SHE WANTED TO KNOW WHAT WE WERE DOING THERE, IF THERE WAS ANY PROBLEMS. SHE SEEMED TO ME TO BE CONCERNED BECAUSE OF OUR PRESENCE.

Q: OKAY. DID DETECTIVE VANNATTER ASK HER ANY QUESTIONS?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT WAS THAT?

A: ASKED IF HER FATHER, MR. SIMPSON, WAS INSIDE THE HOUSE.

Q: AND WHAT WAS HER RESPONSE?

A: SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF, "ISN'T HE HERE?"

Q: SHE ASKED HIM, "ISN'T HE HERE"?

A: YES. YES.

Q: AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: WE MOVED TOWARDS THE REAR AFTER ASKING ARNELLE IF SHE HAD A KEY TO THE LOCATION. SHE SAID SHE DID. I BELIEVE SHE RETURNED TO HER ROOM BRIEFLY AND GOT THE KEY AND CAME BACK OUT. WE THEN PROCEEDED TO THE REAR DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE WHERE SHE UNLOCKED THE DOOR AND WE ENTERED.

Q: NOW, DID YOU TELL HER AT THAT POINT WHY YOU WERE THERE?

A: NOT AT THAT POINT.

Q: WHY NOT?

A: WELL, WE DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT WE HAD AT THAT POINT. I THINK IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR HER TO MAINTAIN HERSELF EMOTIONALLY BEFORE WE TOLD HER ANYTHING BECAUSE WE MAY NEED HER COOPERATION AT A FUTURE TIME.

Q: WHAT DO YOU MEAN "NEED HER COOPERATION AT A FUTURE TIME"?

A: WELL, WE DIDN'T WANT HER TO -- WE WANTED HER TO BE -- TO HAVE IT TOGETHER ENOUGH TO TALK TO US REGARDING THE WHEREABOUTS OF HER FATHER CERTAINLY. WE DIDN'T KNOW IF HE WAS A VICTIM. AND I FELT BY TELLING HER THAT HER EX-STEPMOTHER WAS NOW DECEASED MIGHT BE A REAL PROBLEM FOR HER WHEN IN FACT WE DIDN'T KNOW THE WHEREABOUTS OF MR. SIMPSON AT THAT TIME.

Q: OKAY. AND WHAT COULD -- WHAT DID YOU THINK SHE COULD ASSIST YOU WITH IF -- TRYING -- YOU WANTED TO MAINTAIN HER CALM AND COOPERATIVE, WHAT DID YOU THINK SHE WOULD HELP YOU WITH?

A: LOCATING HER FATHER.

Q: ANYTHING ELSE?

A: BASICALLY IN LOCATING HER FATHER AND OTHER RELATIVES IF NEED BE.

Q: OKAY. BY THE WAY, WERE YOU AWARE THAT THERE WERE TWO SMALL CHILDREN BEING HELD AT THE WEST L.A. POLICE STATION?

A: YES.

Q: AND DID YOU THINK SHE MIGHT HELP YOU IN THAT REGARD?

MR. COCHRAN: LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WERE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THE WELFARE OF THOSE CHILDREN?

A: CERTAINLY.

Q: DID YOU HAVE ANY THOUGHT ABOUT WHO MIGHT HELP YOU WITH THAT?

MR. COCHRAN: LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: CERTAINLY I FELT THAT ARNELLE SIMPSON OR SOMEONE SHE KNEW COULD HELP US WITH THAT, YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU GOT IN THE HOUSE WITH HER, DID YOU ASK A QUESTION OF HER?

A: I ASKED IF THERE WAS A HOUSEKEEPER ON THE PREMISES.

Q: WHY DID YOU ASK THAT?

A: BECAUSE WE HAD INFORMATION THAT THERE WAS IN FACT A HOUSEKEEPER ON THE PREMISES OR SHOULD HAVE BEEN A HOUSEKEEPER ON THE PREMISES AND I WANTED TO KNOW.

Q: WERE YOU CONCERNED FOR SOME REASON IN THAT REGARD?

A: I WAS CONCERNED THAT THE HOUSEKEEPER MAY BE SOME TYPE OF A VICTIM. I DIDN'T KNOW.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT WHEN YOU ASKED ARNELLE IF THERE WAS A HOUSEKEEPER ON THE PREMISES?

A: SHE STATED THAT SHE DIDN'T KNOW, BUT THAT THERE WAS A HOUSEKEEPER.

Q: DID SHE SAY SHE DIDN'T KNOW IF THERE WAS A HOUSEKEEPER?

A: SHE DIDN'T KNOW IF THERE WAS ONE ON THE PREMISES. I ASKED HER WHERE THE HOUSEKEEPER'S ROOM WOULD BE. SHE POINTED OUT A LOCATION TO THE REAR OF THE KITCHEN, AND AT SOME POINT, I PROCEEDED OVER THERE AND WALKED INTO THAT ROOM, THE ROOM THAT SHE STATED BELONGED TO THE HOUSEKEEPER.

Q: DID YOU ASK TO SEE THE ROOM?

A: I ASKED -- YES. I ASKED WHERE IT WAS.

Q: AND WAS THAT THE FIRST ROOM THAT YOU WENT TO LOOK INTO IN THE HOUSE?

A: NO. I WALKED THROUGH THE REAR AREA, THE I GUESS THE REAR DEN AREA AND THROUGH A FORMAL DINING ROOM AND THROUGH THE KITCHEN, OUT A SHORT HALLWAY, AND TO THE LEFT OF THAT WAS THE HOUSEMAID'S ROOM.

Q: NOW, WAS ARNELLE LEADING YOU THROUGH THE HOUSE?

A: SHE WAS WITH ME MORE OR LESS IN THE FRONT. INITIALLY WHEN I ASKED THE LOCATION OF THE HOUSEMAID ROOM, SHE MORE OR LESS WALKED IN FRONT OF ME AND POINTED OUT THE WAY.

Q: DID YOU THEN IMMEDIATELY GO AND LOOK IN THE ROOM?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT DID YOU SEE?

A: THE BED WAS MADE. NOTHING LOOKED DISTURBED. NOTHING LOOKED OUT OF PLACE AND NO HOUSEMAID.

Q: NO HOUSEMAID?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: WHILE YOU LOOKED INTO THE MAID'S BEDROOM, WHERE WAS ARNELLE?

A: ARNELLE WAS IN THE VICINITY OF THE KITCHEN.

Q: AND WAS THERE SOMEONE WITH HER?

A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS THERE AND I BELIEVE VANNATTER.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS ENGAGED IN A CONVERSATION WITH ARNELLE REGARDING CONTACTING I BELIEVE MR. SIMPSON'S SECRETARY, CATHY RANDA, AND ARNELLE GOT THE PHONE NUMBER FOR CATHY RANDA AND PHONED HER.

Q: NOW, DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME, SIR, DID YOU HAPPEN TO SEE KATO KAELIN?

A: NOT AT THIS -- AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME. I BELIEVE HE WAS IN THE REAR WITH FUHRMAN, THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE.

MR. COCHRAN: MOVE TO STRIKE THE LAST PART AS SPECULATIVE. HE HADN'T SEEN HIM. SPECULATIVE.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHEN YOU SAY THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

A: IN THE VICINITY OF THE BAR.

Q: UH-HUH. AND WHERE WAS DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

A: PEOPLE WERE MOVING ABOUT QUITE A BIT. I BELIEVE HE WAS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN THE BAR AND THE KITCHEN.

Q: NOW, WHILE YOU WERE STANDING DOWNSTAIRS THERE IN THE DOWNSTAIRS AREA, DID YOU ENGAGE IN A SEARCH OF THE LOCATION?

A: NO.

Q: DID YOU LOOK AROUND IN ANY MANNER? WERE YOU LOOKING, MAKING ANY OBSERVATIONS?

A: I LOOKED AROUND TO SEE IF ANYTHING MIGHT HAVE BEEN DISTURBED OR IF ANYONE WAS IN NEED OF ANYTHING.

Q: DID YOU OPEN CLOSETS?

A: NO.

Q: OPEN DRAWERS?

A: NO.

Q: LOOK IN SHELVES?

A: NO.

Q: CHECK UNDER COUCHES OR UNDER TABLES?

A: NO.

Q: WHAT WERE YOU DOING?

A: WE WERE TRYING TO CONTACT MR. SIMPSON. AT THAT POINT, WE HAD HAD INFORMATION THAT HE WAS PROBABLY OUT OF TOWN. AFTER CHECKING THE MAID'S QUARTERS, IT DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE ANY PROBLEM IN THERE, SO I DIDN'T FEEL THAT THE MAID WAS NECESSARILY ON THE PREMISES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. DID YOU EVER GO UPSTAIRS TO LOOK FOR THE DEFENDANT?

A: NO.

Q: WHY NOT?

A: AGAIN, WE HAD RECEIVED INFORMATION THE DEFENDANT WAS IN CHICAGO.

Q: DID YOU GET THAT INFORMATION SHORTLY AFTER YOU ENTERED THE HOUSE?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU SAID THAT A PHONE CALL WAS MADE BY -- WHAT WAS IT -- BY ARNELLE?

A: I BELIEVE ARNELLE PHONED CATHY RANDA, YES.

Q: AND AFTER SHE MADE THAT PHONE CALL, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: I BELIEVE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS THEN TOOK THE PHONE AND HAD A CONVERSATION WITH CATHY RANDA.

Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: HE ASCERTAINED A LOCATION WHICH WAS CHICAGO AND I BELIEVE A PHONE NUMBER.

Q: NOW, AT THAT TIME, DID YOU SEE WHERE DETECTIVE VANNATTER WENT OR WHERE HE WAS?

A: DETECTIVE VANNATTER SOME OF THAT TIME WAS BACK WITH FUHRMAN AND KAELIN NEAR THE BAR AREA.

Q: DID THEY APPEAR TO BE HAVING A CONVERSATION?

A: YES.

Q: AT THE POINT THAT DETECTIVE PHILLIPS MADE THE PHONE CALL TO CHICAGO, WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: I MORE OR LESS WALKED WITH ARNELLE, ATTEMPTED TO ESCORT HER AWAY FROM THE PHONE OUT TOWARDS THE SUN ROOM IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE.

Q: WHY?

A: I HAD DETERMINED AT THAT POINT THAT I WAS GOING TO TELL HER WHAT HAD HAPPENED. SHE WAS VERY INQUISITIVE AND BECOMING MORE AND MORE UPSET. I KNEW THAT PHILLIPS WAS GOING TO BE TALKING TO MR. SIMPSON, EXPLAIN TO HIM WHAT HAD HAPPENED AND I FELT THIS WAS THE TIME THAT I SHOULD MAKE THIS NOTIFICATION ABOUT THE DEATH OF NICOLE SIMPSON.

Q: SO DID YOU NOTIFY ARNELLE SIMPSON?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: SHE BECAME EXTREMELY UPSET, EXTREMELY UPSET. SHE CALMED DOWN AFTER A LITTLE BIT TO THE POINT WHERE SHE ASKED IF SHE COULD CALL HER DAD'S BEST FRIEND AND HAVE HIM COME OVER TO THE HOUSE, A MR. A.C. COWLINGS, AND IF SHE COULD MAKE THAT CALL TO MR. COWLINGS FROM HER ROOM, AND I STATED, "YES, GO AHEAD AND DO THAT."

Q: DID YOU ASK HER FOR ANY INFORMATION, SIR?

A: NOT AT THAT TIME I DON'T BELIEVE.

Q: DID YOU EVER ATTEMPT TO ASCERTAIN WHO ELSE -- WHO OTHER NEXT OF KIN MIGHT BE FOR NICOLE BROWN?

A: SUBSEQUENT TO THAT I DID. I ASKED IF SHE WOULD HAVE ANY NAMES OR TELEPHONE NUMBERS OF ANY RELATIVES OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.

Q: AND WHEN WAS THAT IN RELATION TO WHEN SHE WENT TO CALL A.C. COWLINGS?

A: I MAY BE MISTAKEN. I THINK IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN AFTER OR MIGHT -- I DON'T RECALL. IT WAS BEFORE OR RIGHT AROUND THAT AREA.

Q: I AM SORRY.

A: RIGHT AROUND THAT TIME. I DON'T RECALL. THERE WERE A LOT OF THINGS GOING ON. THERE WERE A LOT OF EMOTIONS, PEOPLE MOVING IN AND OUT. I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY WHEN THAT WAS. IT WAS JUST BEFORE SHE MADE THE CALL TO COWLINGS OR JUST AFTER.

Q: BUT RIGHT IN THAT TIME, EITHER JUST BEFORE OR JUST AFTER?

A: WITHIN A MATTER OF MINUTES I BELIEVE, YES.

Q: OKAY. AND -- SO WHEN YOU ASKED FOR SOME IDENTIFICATION OF SOME OTHER NEXT OF KIN FOR NICOLE BROWN, DID SHE GIVE YOU SOME INFORMATION?

A: YES. SHE STATED THAT THE BROWN FAMILY, NICOLE'S FAMILY RESIDED IN I BELIEVE DANA POINT AND THAT SHE HAD A PHONE NUMBER.

Q: AND DID YOU --

A: I AM SORRY.

Q: DID YOU TAKE IT?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, AT THAT POINT, DID YOU HAVE ANY IDENTIFICATION YET ON THE OTHER VICTIM AT THE CRIME SCENE, RON GOLDMAN?

A: NO.

Q: HOW FAR WAS DANA POINT FROM WHERE YOU WERE LOCATED AT THAT TIME IN BRENTWOOD?

A: DANA POINT WAS, IN MY ESTIMATION, PROBABLY 70, 70, 80 MILES AWAY.

Q: SO WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: I PHONED THE BROWN RESIDENCE.

Q: AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE DID YOU PHONE HIM?

A: TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION OF THE DEATH OF NICOLE SIMPSON.

Q: AND WHAT PHONE DID YOU USE TO DO THAT FROM?

A: I USED THE KITCHEN PHONE.

MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: YES.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MS. CLARK: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: YOU MAY.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU TELEPHONE RECORDS, SIR, FROM GTE -- FIRST OF ALL, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PHONE NUMBER THAT IS SHOWN AS THE NUMBER FOR WHICH THIS BILL IS ISSUED?

A: YES. THAT APPEARS TO BE MR. SIMPSON'S PHONE NUMBER ON THE MORNING OF JUNE 13TH.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO IT'S HIS PHONE BILL?

A: YES.

Q: AND DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION NOW TO THE ENTRY FOR JUNE THE 13TH AT 6:21 A.M., DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PHONE NUMBER THAT FOLLOWS THERE?

A: YES. THAT APPEARS TO BE THE BROWN FAMILY RESIDENCE IN DANA POINT.

Q: AND THE CALL LASTED FOR EIGHT MINUTES?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, WITH RESPECT TO THAT CALL, SIR -- FIRST OF ALL, WHAT'S THE POLICY FOR LAPD WITH RESPECT TO THE PREFERRED METHOD OF NOTIFICATION OF NEXT OF KIN WHEN A HOMICIDE HAS OCCURRED OR A DEATH HAS OCCURRED?

A: FOR THE INVESTIGATING DETECTIVE TO NOTIFY IN PERSON.

Q: BUT YOU DIDN'T DO THAT WITH THE BROWN'S?

A: NO, I DIDN'T.

Q: WHY NOT?

A: I FELT THAT IN THE VERY NEAR FUTURE, THERE WOULD BE IMMENSE MEDIA ATTENTION AND THAT ONCE THE INFORMATION WERE TO GET OUT THAT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON WAS THE VICTIM OF A MURDER, THAT THEY COULD FIND OUT THROUGH THE MEDIA WHAT HAD HAPPENED. AND WHILE THE WAY I DID IT WAS INSENSITIVE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE INSENSITIVE FOR THEM TO FIND OUT THEIR DAUGHTER WAS MURDERED OVER THE TELEVISION.

Q: AND SO WHEN YOU CALLED, WHO DID YOU SPEAK TO?

A: I SPOKE TO MR. LOU BROWN, VICTIM'S FATHER.

Q: WAS ANYONE ELSE ON THE PHONE?

A: SHORTLY AFTER I BEGAN TO SPEAK TO MR. BROWN, DENISE BROWN GOT ON THE APPARENTLY ANOTHER PHONE.

Q: WHAT DID YOU TELL THEM?

A: TOLD THEM WHO I WAS AND SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT THAT I APOLOGIZE FOR HAVING TO DO THIS THIS WAY, BUT THAT THEIR DAUGHTER HAD BEEN KILLED.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: DENISE BROWN BEGAN TO --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO ANY CONVERSATION. HEARSAY.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: DENISE BROWN BEGAN TO SCREAM OVER THE PHONE WHAT I BELIEVED TO BE HYSTERICALLY.

THE COURT: NEXT QUESTION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT DID SHE SAY?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MAY I HAVE A MOMENT WITH COUNSEL?

THE COURT: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: PERHAPS SAVE A VISIT TO SIDEBAR. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

THE COURT: MADAM REPORTER.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)

THE COURT: WE ARE OVER AT THE SIDEBAR. HOLD ON. WE'RE OVER AT THE SIDEBAR. THE QUESTION WAS, DENISE BROWN IS ON THE PHONE. SHE'S REACTED HYSTERICALLY. THEN NEXT QUESTION WAS, WHAT DID SHE SAY. THERE'S AN OBJECTION, HEARSAY. WHAT'S THE EXCEPTION?

MS. CLARK: SPONTANEOUS UTTERANCE.

MR. COCHRAN: JUDGE, WHAT'S THE OFFER OF PROOF ON THIS? THERE IS A 352 PROBLEM. THERE ARE OTHER PROBLEMS. AFTER WE HEAR THE OFFER OF PROOF, THEN I THINK YOU'LL UNDERSTAND WHY THIS SHOULD NOT COME IN. THERE'S MORE IN THIS RECORD THAN WE NEED. CAN WE HAVE AN OFFER OF PROOF?

MS. CLARK: I THINK THIS IS A TEXTBOOK EXAMPLE OF SPONTANEOUS UTTERANCE, YOUR HONOR. SHE IS UNDER THE SURPRISE OF THE MOMENT IN RESPONSE TO THE NOTIFICATION GIVEN TO HER. SO WE HAVE AN ACT, CONDITION OR EVENT THAT HAS TRANSPIRED IMMEDIATELY TO TRIGGER THE RESPONSE, AND IN HER IMMEDIATE AND VERY EXCITED UTTERANCE, SHE SAID, "HE DID IT."

MR. COCHRAN: SHE SAID, "HE DID IT." SHE'S SHOWING BIAS OR WHATEVER. SO THAT'S FOR THIS JURY TO DETERMINE.

MS. CLARK: THAT'S ARGUMENT FOR COUNSEL.

MR. COCHRAN: IT SHOWS HER BIAS, YOUR HONOR. THIS BECOMES A 352 PROBLEM. I KNOW THE COURT --

THE COURT: NO. HERE'S THE PROBLEM THOUGH. THE EXCITED UTTERANCE EXCEPTION IS FOR THE DECLARANT TO THEN STATE WHAT IT IS THAT THEY ARE UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF OR SCENE THEY'RE EXPERIENCING, AND THIS PERSON, THIS DECLARANT WAS NOT AT THE LOCATION. SHE'S NOT RELATING AN EVENT THAT SHE'S A WITNESS TO.

MS. CLARK: WAIT. YOUR HONOR, YOU KNOW SOMETHING? I'D LIKE TO BRING THE COURT SOME CASE AUTHORITY. ALL THAT HAS TO OCCUR IS SOME STARTLING EVENT TO HAVE TRANSPIRED TO WHICH SHE'S A WITNESS AND --

THE COURT: TO WHICH SHE IS A WITNESS.

MS. CLARK: YES. AND THE STARTLING EVENT IS THE NOTIFICATION SHE'S BEEN GIVEN. DETECTIVE LANGE HAS JUST INFORMED HER THAT HER SISTER WAS KILLED, AND THAT IS THE STARTLING EVENT TO WHICH SHE'S RESPONDING. SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE PRESENT TO WATCH SOMETHING VISIBLY IF SHE HEARS SOMETHING.

THE COURT: THEN IT'S AN EXPRESSION OF OPINION, ISN'T IT?

MS. CLARK: IT'S STILL A SPONTANEOUS UTTERANCE.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE WILL COME BACK, AND IF YOU CAN TELL ME AFTER THE LUNCH HOUR THAT YOU'VE GOT A CASE THAT SAYS THAT SOMEBODY 80 MILES AWAY CAN THEN TELL US WHAT IT IS THAT OCCURRED --

MS. CLARK: LET ME SEE IF I CAN CLARIFY WHAT THE COURT'S CONCERN IS.

THE COURT: WAIT. WAIT. WAIT.

MS. CLARK: THE COURT'S CONCERN IS THAT --

THE COURT: SPONTANEOUS DECLARATIONS. THIS IS THE WORSE INDEX. 1240. SAYS ACT, CONDITION OR EVENT PERCEIVED BY THE DECLARANT.

MS. CLARK: RIGHT. WHERE IS THE REQUIREMENT THERE THAT IT HAS TO BE VISIBLY SEEN?

THE COURT: PERCEIVED.

MS. CLARK: PERCEIVED. SHE HEARD IT. YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO --

THE COURT: ABSOLUTELY. SURE. RIGHT NOW, I AM GOING TO SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION.

MR. COCHRAN: ALSO, WE WOULD LIKE TO RESPOND. I AGREE WITH YOUR HONOR'S --

MS. CLARK: NO KIDDING. YOU AGREE WITH YOUR HONOR. WHAT A SHOCK THAT IS.

MR. COCHRAN: YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO AGREE TO LEAVE IT ALONE.

MS. CLARK: I WOULD LOVE TO, BUT SOMETIMES I CAN'T. LET ME JUST MAKE SURE I GET THE CASE LAW THAT THE COURT REALLY WANTS. THE ISSUE IS THAT THE COURT SAYS SHE HAS TO VISIBLY PERCEIVE SOMETHING.

THE COURT: SHE HAS TO HAVE PERCEIVED SOMETHING.

MS. CLARK: SIMPLY HEARING SOMETHING IS NOT ENOUGH. OKAY. SO YOU WOULD LIKE CASE LAW INDICATING THAT HEARING SOMETHING STARTLING IS SUFFICIENT TO HAVE SUFFICIENT FOUNDATION FOR A SPONTANEOUS UTTERANCE.

THE COURT: LET'S SAY -- FOR EXAMPLE, LET'S TAKE AWAY THE EXCITED UTTERANCE PART OF THE DISCUSSION AND LET'S JUST SAY, "DENISE, WHO DO YOU THINK DID THIS?" "WELL, I THINK O.J. DID IT." IS THAT ADMISSIBLE?

MS. CLARK: MAY I INDICATE THAT, DIDN'T SHE TESTIFY TO SOMETHING VERY SIMILAR WHEN SHE WAS A WITNESS IN THIS CASE?

THE COURT: NO. BUT DO YOU THINK THAT YOU CAN ASK HER COMPETENTLY TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, "WHO DO YOU THINK KILLED YOUR SISTER?"

MS. CLARK: WAIT. WAIT. WAIT. HOLD ON A SECOND. DIDN'T SHE TESTIFY IN THIS TRIAL THAT WHEN SHE WAS NOTIFIED OF HER SISTER'S DEATH --

THE COURT: "MY GOD, HE DID IT."

MS. CLARK: THAT'S RIGHT. ISN'T THIS ADMISSIBLE TO CORROBORATE HER STATEMENT, YOUR HONOR, INDEPENDENTLY?

THE COURT: THAT'S A DIFFERENT ISSUE. BUT --

MS. CLARK: NO. BUT IT'S THE SAME TESTIMONY. DIFFERENT ISSUE, SAME TESTIMONY. EITHER WAY, IT'S ADMISSIBLE.

MR. COCHRAN: NO, IT'S NOT.

MS. CLARK: WHETHER IT'S SPONTANEOUS -- COUNSEL, WILL YOU STOP INTERRUPTING ME AND LET ME FINISH WHAT I'M SAYING? IT'S ADMISSIBLE AS A SPONTANEOUS UTTERANCE FOR THE REASON -- THAT'S THE PEOPLE'S PROOF. I WILL PRESENT THE COURT WITH CASES ON THE ISSUE OF PERCEPTION. BUT ON A SEPARATE ISSUE, AS A CORROBORATIVE WITNESS TO HER TESTIMONY AT TRIAL, WE HAVE AN INDEPENDENT MEANS OF ADMISSIBILITY.

THE COURT: MISS CLARK, AT THIS POINT, I AM GOING TO SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION. WE'RE ONLY ABOUT 20 MINUTES AWAY FROM CALLING IT THE COURSE OF THE MORNING. SO YOU'LL HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO REVISIT THIS.

MR. COCHRAN: AS I SAY, IF THEY PRESENT YOU WITH CASE AUTHORITY, WE'LL HAVE A CHANCE TO RESPOND? THIS IS OPINION. IT'S NOT A SPONTANEOUS UTTERANCE. THE RECORD IS CLEAR SHE'S AT DANA POINT. HE'S CALLING OVER A PHONE, MAKES SOME STATEMENTS, HE TALKS TO HER FATHER. SHE GETS ON THE PHONE, MAKES A STATEMENT.

THE COURT: KEEP YOUR VOICE DOWN. THANK YOU.

MS. CLARK: HOLD ON ONE SECOND. CAN I ASK A QUESTION? THE COURT IS ALSO CONCERNED ABOUT THE ISSUE OF WHETHER IT'S A STATEMENT OF PAIN BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY REQUIREMENT THAT IT NOT BE A STATEMENT --

THE COURT: PART OF THE 352 PROBLEM. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CONTINUE.

MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT, PLEASE?

THE COURT: CERTAINLY.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. YOU INDICATED THAT YOU ALLOWED MISS SIMPSON TO CALL A.C. COWLINGS?

A: YES.

Q: AND SHORTLY AFTER YOU ALLOWED HER TO MAKE THAT PHONE CALL, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: MR. COWLINGS SHOWED UP, WAS SEEN A SHORT TIME AFTER THAT AT THE LOCATION.

Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT?

A: IT WAS ABOUT THIS TIME THAT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN APPROACHED ME IN THE KITCHEN AREA AND STATED THAT --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO WHAT HE STATED. HEARSAY.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED AT THIS POINT. HE WAS APPROACHED BY DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.

MS. CLARK: YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID HE ASK YOU TO DO SOMETHING?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT?

A: HE ASKED ME TO ACCOMPANY HIM OUTSIDE AND TO THE REAR OF THE BUNGALOW AT THE LOCATION.

Q: SO WHERE DID HE TAKE YOU?

A: WE WALKED OUT THROUGH THE SUN ROOM THAT'S ADJACENT TO THE KITCHEN OUT ON THE FRONT DRIVEWAY, WALKED AROUND THE GARAGE TO A WALKWAY THAT BORDERS THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE PROPERTY, AND WE PROCEEDED EASTBOUND DOWN THE WALKWAY TO A POINT THAT APPEARED TO BE BEHIND AND SOUTH OF THE GUEST ROOM OF KATO KAELIN.

Q: OKAY. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE LOCATION AS IT APPEARED ON JUNE THE 13TH OF 1994?

A: DESCRIBE IT AS A NARROW CEMENT WALKWAY WITH A HURRICANE-TYPE FENCE ON ONE SIDE WHICH WOULD BE THE SOUTH SIDE AND THE RESIDENCE ON THE NORTH SIDE. THERE WERE BUSHES AND TREES GROWING UP ALONG THE FENCE AND AGAIN APPEARED TO BE FAIRLY NARROW.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S 68-A.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S 68-A, SIR?

A: YES. THAT APPEARS TO BE THE WALKWAY.

Q: NOW, YOU DESCRIBED -- YOU SEE LEAVES ON THE GROUND HERE.

A: YES.

Q: AND IS THAT THE WAY IT LOOKED TO YOU ON JUNE THE 13TH?

A: YES.

Q: HOW ABOUT THE LIGHTING IN THAT AREA?

A: IT WAS LIGHT OUTSIDE. BUT THE DIRECT AREA WAS MORE OR LESS SHROUDED WITH THE SHADOWS OF THE SHRUBBERY AND THE BUILDING.

Q: SO WHAT WAS THE LIGHTING LIKE?

A: WELL, AGAIN, IT WAS LIGHT OUTSIDE, BUT THE -- I WOULDN'T CALL IT EXCELLENT LIGHTING. CERTAINLY YOU COULD SEE, BUT IT WASN'T REALLY GOOD.

Q: FAIRLY DARK?

A: IT WAS BEGINNING TO GET LIGHT ABOUT THE TIME THAT I WAS THERE AND IT WAS DARKER THAN THE NORMAL I GUESS IF IT WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY.

Q: SO WHERE DID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN TAKE YOU ON THAT SOUTH SIDE PATH?

A: HE TOOK ME DOWN TO A POINT JUST -- AS INDICATED IN THE PHOTOGRAPH HERE, THERE APPEARS TO BE A WALL AIR CONDITIONER COMING OUT OF THE LEFT SIDE OF THE WALL. THAT PARTICULAR AREA IS THE REAR OF KATO KAELIN'S GUEST ROOM. HE TOOK ME TO A POINT JUST THIS SIDE OF THE AIR CONDITIONER (INDICATING).

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S 68-B.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. YOU INDICATED A LOCATION JUST THIS SIDE OF THE AIR CONDITIONER. DO YOU MEAN BY THAT JUST WEST OF THE AIR CONDITIONER?

A: YES.

Q: OKAY. AND THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT NOW, 68-B?

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: B.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT LOCATION?

A: IT'S A PHOTOGRAPH LOOKING DOWN THAT WALKWAY IN AN EASTERLY DIRECTION TOWARDS THE AIR CONDITIONER.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S 68-C.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S SHOWN THERE, SIR?

A: YES. THAT'S A -- APPEARS TO BE A DARK BROWN OR BLACK LEATHER GLOVE THAT WAS POINTED OUT TO ME BY FUHRMAN.

Q: HOW CLOSE DID YOU GET TO THE GLOVE BEFORE YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE IT?

A: APPROXIMATELY SIX FEET.

Q: NOW, DO YOU RECALL -- STRIKE THAT. LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING ELSE. THE GLOVE THAT'S SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, 68-C, IS THAT THE POSITION AND THE CONDITION IN WHICH YOU SAW IT?

A: YES.

Q: AND YOU GOT WITHIN SIX FEET OF IT BEFORE YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE IT?

A: I HAD BEEN TOLD WHAT WE WERE GOING TO LOOK FOR, WHAT WE WERE GOING TO LOOK AT AND IT WAS PROBABLY SIX OR EIGHT, MAYBE 10 FEET BEFORE I COULD ACTUALLY DISTINGUISH WHAT IT WAS.

Q: AND YOU WERE ACTIVELY LOOKING FOR IT AT THAT TIME I TAKE IT?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, IN ORDER TO GET BACK TO --

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. DID YOU TOUCH THE GLOVE BY CHANCE?

A: NO.

Q: WHAT WAS THE CLOSEST YOU GOT TO IT?

A: AGAIN, I THINK IT MUST HAVE BEEN APPROXIMATELY SIX FEET.

Q: IN ORDER TO GET BACK ON THAT SOUTH SIDE OF THE PROPERTY, SIR, DID YOU HAVE TO PASS THROUGH ANY DOORS OR GATE?

A: THERE WAS A GATE THAT APPEARED TO BE DILAPIDATED AND NOT NECESSARILY IN WORKING ORDER JUST WEST OF THERE.

Q: HOW MANY GATES WERE THERE TO GET BACK TO THE AREA OF THE AIR CONDITIONER WHERE THE GLOVE WAS?

A: THERE WERE NO GATE TO -- THERE WERE GATES TO WALK THROUGH, BUT NONE THAT WE HAD TO OPEN.

Q: AND HOW MANY OF THOSE WERE THERE, OPEN GATES?

A: I THINK THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN TWO.

Q: AND THEY WERE BOTH OPEN WHEN YOU WALKED BACK THERE?

A: YES.

Q: AFTER YOU SAW THE GLOVE, SIR, WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: WALKED BACK TO THE FRONT OF THE LOCATION WHERE I MET WITH MY PARTNER, DETECTIVE VANNATTER.

Q: WHERE WAS IT THAT YOU MET WITH HIM?

A: SEEMS TO ME IT WAS IN THE DRIVEWAY IN FRONT OF THE LOCATION.

Q: AND DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM THERE?

A: YES. I --

MR. COCHRAN: HE'S ANSWERED THE QUESTION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID HE TELL YOU TO DO SOMETHING?

A: NO.

Q: WHAT DID YOU DISCUSS?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT. CALLS FOR HEARSAY.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WAS THE TOPIC OF YOUR CONVERSATION?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT, HEARSAY.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU HAD A DISCUSSION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

A: YES.

Q: WAS ANYONE ELSE PRESENT?

A: I DON'T BELIEVE SO.

Q: BASED ON YOUR CONVERSATION -- WELL, BASED ON YOUR CONVERSATION, WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: I RETURNED TO THE BUNDY LOCATION IN A BLACK AND WHITE PATROL VEHICLE.

Q: WHERE WERE DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WHEN YOU LEFT ROCKINGHAM TO GO BACK TO BUNDY?

A: PRIOR TO THAT CONVERSATION, VANNATTER HAD SENT THEM BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION.

Q: SO BEFORE YOU LEFT, DETECTIVE VANNATTER HAD ALREADY SENT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: -- AND PHILLIPS BACK TO BUNDY?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND YOU LEFT HOW -- IF YOU KNOW, HOW LONG AFTER THEM DID YOU LEAVE?

A: PROBABLY A MATTER OF MINUTES.

Q: HOW DID YOU GO BACK SINCE YOU AND PHILLIPS CAME BACK IN ONE CAR?

MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED. BLACK AND WHITE.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

MS. CLARK: I DIDN'T HEAR IT.

THE COURT: THAT'S WHAT HE SAID.

THE WITNESS: BLACK AND WHITE, YES.

MS. CLARK: IT'S TRUE. OKAY.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT -- DO YOU KNOW WHAT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WERE SUPPOSED TO DO BACK AT BUNDY?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. CALLS FOR SPECULATION. CALLS FOR HEARSAY, WHAT WERE THEY SUPPOSED TO DO.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

MS. CLARK: I'M ASKING IF HE KNOWS.

THE COURT: THAT'S NOT THE WAY THE QUESTION STARTED OUT. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. DO YOU KNOW -- DO YOU KNOW WHETHER DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO BACK AT BUNDY?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO, HEARSAY.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

MR. COCHRAN: SPECULATIVE.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: THEY WERE GOING TO COMPARE THE APPEARANCE OF THE GLOVE AT BUNDY TO THE APPEARANCE OF THE GLOVE AT ROCKINGHAM TO SEE IF IN FACT IT MAY BE A MATCH.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: SO WHEN YOU LEFT IN THE BLACK AND WHITE TO GO TO BUNDY, WHAT DID DETECTIVE VANNATTER DO?

MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR. HOW WOULD HE KNOW? HE LEFT.

THE COURT: NO. IT SAYS WHEN HE -- WHEN HE LEFT.

MR. COCHRAN: WHAT DID HE DO.

THE COURT: WHICH I ASSUME AS HE WAS LEAVING, HE CAN TELL US WHAT --

MR. COCHRAN: WELL, YOUR HONOR, I THINK IT SOUNDS LIKE THE FUTURE TO ME; WHAT DID HE DO. BUT I'LL DEFER TO YOUR JUDGMENT.

THE COURT: WELL, THANK YOU.

THE WITNESS: HE REMAINED AT THE LOCATION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU LEFT IN THE BLACK AND WHITE?

A: APPROXIMATELY 6:45 A.M.

Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU ARRIVED BACK AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY, SIR, DID YOU SEE DETECTIVE PHILLIPS OR DETECTIVE FUHRMAN THERE?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHERE WERE THEY?

A: THEY WERE IN THE FRONT OF THE LOCATION.

Q: DID YOU HAVE SOME CONTACT WITH THEM?

A: YES.

Q: WHO DID YOU CONTACT?

A: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.

Q: AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE, SIR?

A: I ASKED DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TO CONTACT THE L.A. COUNTY CORONER'S OFFICE TO MAKE A FIRST CALL NOTIFICATION.

Q: SO THAT WAS -- WAS THAT RIGHT AWAY AFTER YOU GOT BACK TO BUNDY?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO RIGHT AWAY. OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY FIRST NOTIFICATION?

A: FIRST NOTIFICATION OF THE CORONER'S OFFICE INDICATES A -- BASICALLY WHAT WE HAVE IN THE FIELD AS FAR AS NUMBER OF VICTIMS, A GENERAL RUNDOWN ON ANY INFORMATION WE HAVE AND A POSSIBLE TIME ESTIMATE AND WHEN WE REQUIRE THEM TO BE AT THE LOCATION.

Q: WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THAT?

A: THE PURPOSE OF THAT IS TO ALLOW THE CORONER'S OFFICE TO HAVE PERSONNEL AVAILABLE WHEN THEY'RE NEEDED.

Q: WHAT DO YOU MEAN? WHY WOULDN'T THEY BE?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION. THE CORONER'S BUDGET IS NOT RELEVANT TO THIS CASE.

THE COURT: CAN YOU NARROW -- LET'S NARROW IT DOWN. CAN YOU NARROW DOWN YOUR QUESTION? IT COULD BE A JILLION THINGS.

MS. CLARK: I AGREE. NO. I JUST COULDN'T HEAR, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: CAN YOU NARROW IT DOWN A LITTLE?

MS. CLARK: YES. YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: REPHRASE YOUR QUESTION.

MS. CLARK: YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU INDICATED I THINK TO MINIMIZE DELAY IN THE RESPONSE OF THE CORONER'S OFFICE?

A: WELL, THAT MAY BE ONE OF THE REASONS. THEY NEED TO DEPLOY THEIR PEOPLE PROPERLY. I DON'T THINK THEY COULD SEND OUT -- THEY NEED TIME TO PROPERLY HAVE PEOPLE AVAILABLE, HAVE EQUIPMENT AVAILABLE TO RESPOND TO HOMICIDES. IF WE WERE TO WAIT UNTIL THE LAST MOMENT AND OKAY, WE NEED YOU KNOW, THERE'S A POSSIBILITY THAT WE COULDN'T GET ANYONE TO RESPOND BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE TIED UP ELSEWHERE. THEY NEED TO BE CONCERNED WITH THEIR DEPLOYMENT.

Q: OKAY. WHAT'S YOUR CONCERN? WHY DO YOU MAKE FIRST NOTIFICATION AND NOT TELL THEM TO COME STRAIGHT OUT TO THE SCENE?

A: BECAUSE I AM CERTAINLY CONCERNED FOR THEIR DEPLOYMENT ALSO. HOWEVER, I DON'T TELL THEM TO COME TO THE SCENE BECAUSE I HAVE WORK TO DO.

Q: WHAT WORK IS THAT?

A: INVESTIGATING THE CRIME SCENE PRIOR TO THE REMOVAL OF THE BODIES.

Q: WHY DON'T YOU WANT THE BODIES REMOVED? WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH THE BODIES?

A: WELL, PRIOR TO THEM BEING REMOVED, I NEED TO PHOTOGRAPH AND MEASURE THE BODIES IN POSITION RELEVANT TO THE OTHER EVIDENCE AT THE CRIME SCENE. I NEED TO EXAMINE THE BODIES WITHOUT TOUCHING THEM. I NEED TO BASICALLY DO A CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION FIRSTLY WITH THE BODIES IN POSITION.

Q: OKAY. AND SO DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU PRESERVE OR DOCUMENT THE POSITION OF ALL THE EVIDENCE AND THE BODIES BEFORE THE CORONER COMES?

A: DOCUMENT OBSERVATIONS, TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS, MEASUREMENTS.

Q: OKAY. YOU'VE SEEN THE PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN IN THIS CASE; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: IN SOME PHOTOGRAPHS, WE SEE NUMBERS, NUMBER TAGS BY EACH OF THE ITEMS OF EVIDENCE AND IN OTHER PHOTOGRAPHS WE DON'T. CAN YOU TELL US WHY THAT IS?

A: THE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT DO NOT HAVE TAGS WERE TAKEN WITH THE BODIES IN POSITION. THE PHOTOGRAPHS WITH THE TAGS ARE TAKEN UNDER THE DIRECTION OF THE CRIMINALIST WITH THE PHOTOGRAPHER SUBSEQUENT TO THE REMOVAL OF THE BODIES IN THOSE CASES.

Q: NOW, IN THIS CASE, SIR, IF YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU FIRST GOT TO THE SCENE AT BUNDY AT ABOUT 4:30 IN THE MORNING, WAS THE PHOTOGRAPHER ALREADY THERE?

A: YES.

Q: IF YOU KNOW, WERE ANY PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN BEFORE YOUR ARRIVAL?

A: YES.

Q: DID HE REMAIN THERE AT THE BUNDY LOCATION, THE PHOTOGRAPHER THAT IS? SO HE REMAINED THERE WHEN THE FOUR OF YOU LEFT TO GO TO ROCKINGHAM AT ABOUT 5:00 IN THE MORNING?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO BUNDY, DID YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER INVOLVEMENT WITH THE PHOTOGRAPHER AT BUNDY?

A: YES. I DIRECTED THE PHOTOGRAPHER TO TAKE SOME SHOTS OF THE CRIME SCENE.

Q: AND WHERE DID YOU DIRECT HIM TO GO?

A: IN THE IMMEDIATE VICINITY OF THE BODIES.

Q: DID YOU DIRECT HIS ATTENTION TO ANY PARTICULAR PIECES OF EVIDENCE OR LOCATIONS OF THE CRIME SCENE?

A: DIRECTED HIS ATTENTION TO PIECES OF EVIDENCE WITHIN THE CRIME SCENE, THE BODIES THEMSELVES, POSITIONING OF THE BODIES, EVIDENCE THAT I OBSERVED ON THE BODIES, THEIR RELATIVE OVERALL DISTANCES TO OTHER OBJECTS AT THE SCENE.

Q: WHERE DID YOU BEGIN WITH YOUR OBSERVATIONS AND THE DIRECTING OF THE PHOTOGRAPHY, IF YOU RECALL?

A: AT THE BODIES.

Q: OKAY. DO YOU REMEMBER WHICH ONE YOU BEGAN WITH?

A: YES. I BEGAN WITH NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.

Q: NOW, ON THE DATE OF JUNE THE 13TH, WHEN YOU WERE CONDUCTING THE INVESTIGATION, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT WAS THE VISIBILITY OF THE BODY OF NICOLE BROWN FROM THE STREET AREA?

A: ONCE IT BECAME LIGHT, IT WAS VERY VISIBLE.

Q: WHEN YOU FIRST RESPONDED TO THE LOCATION AT 4:30 IN THE MORNING, WAS IT LIGHT?

A: NO.

Q: AND WHAT WAS THE VISIBILITY OF HER BODY FROM THE STREET AREA AT THAT TIME WHEN YOU FIRST CAME TO THE SCENE AT 4:30?

A: NOT GOOD AT ALL.

Q: WHEN YOU SAY "NOT GOOD AT ALL," COULD YOU AMPLIFY A LITTLE BIT.

A: UNLESS YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE LOOKING FOR, YOU NIGHT HAVE A HARD TIME --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. THIS IS SPECULATIVE. WITHOUT FURTHER FOUNDATION, IT'S SPECULATIVE. THERE'S NO FOUNDATION.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: GO AHEAD.

A: UNLESS ONE KNEW WHAT THEY WERE LOOKING FOR, IT MAY BE VERY DIFFICULT TO JUST SEE THE BODY FROM THE STREET OR THE SIDEWALK.

Q: NOW, IS THE LOCATION OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY IN TERMS OF THE FOLIAGE ANY DIFFERENT NOW AND ON THE DATE OF THE JURY WALK-THROUGH ON FEBRUARY 12TH THAN IT WAS ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE THE 13TH?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. I NEED TO -- MAY I HAVE JUST A SECOND?

THE COURT: CERTAINLY.

MR. COCHRAN: I'LL WITHDRAW THE OBJECTION.

THE COURT: THANK YOU. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.

THE WITNESS: THE FOLIAGE APPEARS TO BE LIGHTER NOW THAN IT WAS BACK IN JUNE. THERE DOESN'T APPEAR TO BE AS MUCH OF IT.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ANY SPECIFIC AREA THAT YOU HAVE IN MIND?

A: THE AREA DIRECTLY TO THE NORTH OF THE WALKWAY AT THE LOCATION.

Q: OKAY.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH HERE, ASK TO BE MARKED AS --

THE COURT: NEXT IN ORDER, 79.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. 79.

(PEO'S 79 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT, SIR. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE LOCATION BEING SHOWN HERE?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT IS IT?

A: THAT'S THE FRONT OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, I'M GOING TO ALLOW THE VIDEO FEED OF THIS PHOTOGRAPH.

MS. CLARK: YEAH. THIS ONE'S OKAY.

THE WITNESS: LOOKING AT A WESTERLY DIRECTION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: UH-HUH. AND DOES THIS DEPICT THE WAY THE LOCATION LOOKED ON JUNE THE 13TH?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, YOU WERE SAYING THAT SOME OF THE FOLIAGE IS -- WAS HEAVIER THEN THAN IT IS NOW?

A: YES.

Q: CAN YOU TELL US -- DIRECT THE POINTER TO THE AREA THAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO?

A: TO THE RIGHT. UP, UP (INDICATING). THIS FOLIAGE IN THIS ENTIRE AREA HERE, IF YOU CIRCLE THAT ARROW IN THAT ENTIRE AREA, AND APPEARS TO BE LIGHTER TODAY THAN BACK THEN.

Q: IS THAT THE AREA YOU WERE REFERRING TO, SIR?

A: WELL, ACTUALLY A LARGER -- THAT WHOLE -- THAT WHOLE AREA THERE, YES.

Q: OKAY. IF YOU COULD DIRECT THE PERSON TO --

THE COURT: ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THAT WHOLE TREE THAT APPEARS TO BE THERE?

THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR. THAT GENERAL AREA JUST -- IT'S STILL THERE. IT JUST APPEARS TO BE THINNER THAN -- TODAY THAN IT WAS BACK THEN.

THE COURT: MISS CLARK, ARE YOU GOING TO SHOW US NEXT A PHOTO ON OR ABOUT THE DATE OF THE JURY VIEW?

MS. CLARK: WE WILL, BUT WE DON'T HAVE IT READY TODAY.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MS. CLARK: SO IF WE COULD CIRCLE --

Q: BY MS. CLARK: IS IT THE LEFT HAND -- AS YOU FACE THE PHOTOGRAPH, DETECTIVE LANGE, IS IT THE LEFT SIDE OF THAT TREE?

THE COURT: WELL, MISS CLARK, FORGIVE ME FOR INTERRUPTING YOU. I DON'T MEAN TO TRY YOUR CASE FOR YOU. BUT IF WE DO THAT, WE'LL OBSCURE SOME OF THE DETAIL OF THE TREE ITSELF. PERHAPS IF IT'S JUST THE TREE OR THE FOLIAGE BETWEEN THE PALM TREE AND WHAT APPEARS TO BE A STREET STANDARD, IF WE CAN AGREE THAT'S WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT SO WE DON'T OBSCURE THE DETAIL OF WHAT'S THERE.

MS. CLARK: YES. NO. I APPRECIATE THAT, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WOULD THAT BE AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION, SIR?

A: I AM SORRY. WHAT?

Q: THE AREA BETWEEN -- OF THE TREE BETWEEN THE PALM TREE AND THE STREET LAMP, IS THAT THE AREA?

A: YES. BASICALLY, IT APPEARS TO BE MORE THINNED OUT, YES.

Q: TODAY THAN IT WAS THEN?

A: YES.

Q: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. DID YOU DIRECT THE PHOTOGRAPHER TO BEGIN WITH THE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE BODY OF NICOLE BROWN?

A: YES.

Q: AND AFTER HE COMPLETED THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS, WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: I CONTINUED TO MAKE OBSERVATIONS, DOCUMENT OBSERVATIONS OF THE BODY.

Q: AND WHAT OBSERVATIONS DID YOU MAKE?

A: I OBSERVED THE VICTIM TO BE LYING ON HER LEFT SIDE, APPEARED TO BE IN A -- WHAT I WOULD TERM A SEMI-FETAL POSITION. THE HEAD WAS IN A NORTH BY NORTHEASTERLY DIRECTION. THE RIGHT ARM APPEARED TO BE BENEATH THE BODY. THE LEFT ARM AND HAND WERE EXTENDED FROM BENEATH THE BODY IN WHAT I WOULD TERM A SO-CALLED DEATH GRIP OR CADERVERIC SPASM.

THE COURT: CAN YOU SPELL THAT?

THE WITNESS: C-A-D-E-R-V-E-R-I-C I BELIEVE.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, DID YOU OBSERVE WHETHER SHE HAD ANY JEWELRY ON HER?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT DID SHE HAVE?

A: OBSERVED A APPEARED TO BE A THUMB RING ON THE LEFT THUMB IN THE GRIP OF HER HAND THAT I JUST DESCRIBED. THERE WAS A WRISTWATCH, EARRINGS.

Q: WERE THOSE -- DID YOU HAPPEN TO NOTICE WHETHER SHE WAS WEARING ANY SHOES?

A: SHE HAD NO SHOES ON HER FEET.

Q: DID YOU HAPPEN TO NOTICE THE BOTTOM OF HER FEET AT ALL AS TO WHETHER THERE WAS BLOOD ON THEM?

A: THE BOTTOM OF HER FEET WERE CLEAN. THERE DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE ANY BLOOD.

Q: AND COULD YOU TELL US WHAT THE POSITION OF HER LEGS -- THE POSITION -- STRIKE THAT. I NEED LUNCH.

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE APPROACH A MOMENT?

MS. CLARK: MAY I JUST COMPLETE THIS LAST QUESTION AND THEN --

THE COURT: MISS CLARK.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU INDICATED THAT THERE WAS -- LET ME USE A PICTURE INSTEAD.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: LET ME ASK YOU THIS, SIR. IN THE FRONT OF THE LOCATION OF BUNDY, I THINK YOU INDICATED THAT THERE'S A FENCE PORTION ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE WALKWAY THAT LEADS FROM THE SIDEWALK UP TO THE FRONT STEPS AND THAT --

A: YES.

Q: I AM SORRY?

A: THERE'S A STATIONARY GATE AT THAT LOCATION.

Q: RIGHT. WHERE WAS NICOLE BROWN'S BODY PLACED IN RELATIONSHIP TO THAT STATIONARY GATE THAT IS TO THE SOUTH OF THE FRONT WALKWAY?

A: THE BODY POSITION FOR THE MOST PART WAS TO THE NORTH OF THAT LOCATION ON THE WALKWAY. HOWEVER, THE LEGS WERE BENEATH THE LOWER RUNG OF THAT GATE.

MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE APPROACH NOW, YOUR HONOR?

MS. CLARK: MAY I ALLOW THE WITNESS TO FINISH HIS ANSWER BEFORE WE APPROACH?

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DID YOU FINISH YOUR ANSWER, DETECTIVE?

THE WITNESS: I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY THE LEGS WERE BENEATH THE LOWER RUNG AND THE FEET WERE IN A MORE OR LESS A SOUTHERLY DIRECTION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: A SOUTHERLY DIRECTION?

A: YES.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. IS THIS A GOOD TIME TO BREAK?

MS. CLARK: SURE.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS FOR THE NOON HOUR AT THIS TIME. PLEASE REMEMBER ALL MY ADMONITIONS TO YOU; DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONGST YOURSELVES, DON'T FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, DON'T ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU WITH REGARD TO THE CASE, DO NOT CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU. AND, COUNSEL, I'LL SEE YOU BACK HERE AT 1:30. ALL RIGHT. AND LET ME SEE COUNSEL WITHOUT THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.

(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)

(AT 12:05 P.M., THE NOON RECESS WAS TAKEN UNTIL 1:30 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.)

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 21, 1995 1:35 P.M.

DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE

APPEARANCES: (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)

(JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)

(CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD AFTERNOON, COUNSEL. ALL RIGHT. HAVE WE MISS CLARK, MR. BLASIER, HAVE WE RESOLVED ANY OF THE DISPUTES?

MS. CLARK: UNFORTUNATELY NOT, YOUR HONOR. APPARENTLY THE VERY PROBLEM THAT WAS BROUGHT TO THE COURT'S ATTENTION ON FRIDAY WITH RESPECT TO THE LATE REQUEST FOR THE NON-BIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE, WHICH I REALLY HAVE A HARD TIME UNDERSTANDING, GIVEN THE FACT THAT THEY WERE AVAILABLE FOR SEVEN MONTHS OR MORE, HAS NOW PUT US IN THE POSITION OF NOT HAVING THE ITEMS PHYSICALLY IN COURT ON THE DAY THAT I NEED TO INTRODUCE THEM WITH THE WITNESS, AND THEY WILL NOT BE BACK.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. SPECIFICALLY WHAT ITEM ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

MS. CLARK: WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE RING, ITEM NO. 18 -- THE RING, ITEM NO. 40, DEFENDANT'S SHOES, ITEM NO. 18.

THE COURT: WHICH SHOES ARE THESE? REEBOKS?

MS. CLARK: YES. ITEM NO. 9, THE ROCKINGHAM GLOVE, AND ITEM NO. 46, THE TIME MENU.

THE COURT: UH-HUH.

MS. CLARK: AND LOGICALLY WE ARE COMING TO A POINT IN THE TESTIMONY WHEN ALL OF THESE THINGS WOULD BE ENTERED INTO EVIDENCE.

THE COURT: ARE YOU ENTERING THE MENU INTO EVIDENCE?

MS. CLARK: THAT IS A POSSIBILITY; HOWEVER, I AM PRECLUDED FROM MAKING THAT CHOICE BECAUSE IT IS NOT HERE, NOR IS THE RING, WHICH I DO NEED -- I DO NEED AND WILL NEED VERY, VERY SOON. I UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE NOT --

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THESE FOUR ITEMS?

MS. CLARK: YEAH.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET ME HEAR WHAT MR. BLASIER AND MR. SCHECK HAVE TO SAY.

MR. BLASIER: YES, YOUR HONOR. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THESE ARE THE ITEMS THAT WE LOOKED AT PROBABLY FIRST AND THEY WERE READY TO COME BACK FIRST. WE HAD EVERYTHING READY TO COME BACK BECAUSE WE WANTED TO GET IT BACK IN TIME. AND I THINK IT IS JUST A MATTER OF MULTIPLE COURIERS BEING USED AND I'M NOT SURE WHAT ORDER THEY DECIDED TO BRING THESE THINGS BACK IN, BUT WE WERE DONE WITH THIS STAGE OF OUR PROCESS ON MONDAY.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHEN WILL THESE THINGS BE BACK, MR. BLASIER?

MR. BLASIER: THEY SHOULD BE ON THEIR WAY NOW. WE RETURNED THEM BACK TO THE COURIERS YESTERDAY, MY UNDERSTANDING.

MR. YOCHELSON: MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THESE ARE GOING TO BE DUE BACK TONIGHT, YOUR HONOR, WITH THE LATEST SHIPMENT. I DON'T KNOW HOW THE COURIERS DECIDED TO PARCEL THIS OUT. IT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT WHATEVER WAS AVAILABLE FIRST, THEY PUT ON IT THE PLANE AND BROUGHT IT BACK, SO I'M NOT SURE THESE THINGS WERE AVAILABLE. EVERYBODY WAS CERTAINLY AWARE THAT WE NEEDED THESE THINGS AND IT IS OUR POINT, ONE, THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN LOOKED AT, COULD HAVE BEEN LOOKED AT SIX MONTHS AGO. WE WANTED TO ADVISE --

THE COURT: WELL, WITHOUT THAT COMMENT, WHICH HAS NOW BEEN MADE TODAY FOUR TIMES, MY ISSUE -- MY QUESTION IS WHEN IS IT GOING TO BE BACK TODAY.

MR. YOCHELSON: WE ARE TOLD THAT IT IS DUE BACK TONIGHT EARLY THIS MORNING.

THE COURT: IN THE MEANTIME WE HAVE PHOTOGRAPHS OF ALL THESE ITEMS, CORRECT?

MS. CLARK: WELL, YOUR HONOR, THAT DOESN'T ADDRESS -- THAT DOESN'T ADDRESS THE PROBLEM. WE HAVE PHOTOGRAPHS OF EVERYTHING, OF COURSE, BUT WHY PUT IN THE PHYSICAL ITEMS OF EVIDENCE AT ALL?

THE COURT: WELL, RIGHT NOW ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS SAY, "DETECTIVE, IS THIS A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE RING?" "YES, IT IS."

MS. CLARK: I KNOW THAT.

THE COURT: THEN YOU ASK ME TO INSTRUCT THE JURORS THAT WHEN THAT ITEM IS PHYSICALLY AVAILABLE, I WILL TELL THEM IT IS PRESENTLY SOMEPLACE ELSE, NOT IN THE COURTROOM, AND IT WILL BE PRESENTED TO THEM WHEN IT IS HERE, UNLESS YOU WANT TO SUGGEST WE JUST STOP THE TRIAL AT THIS POINT?

MS. CLARK: NOT PARTICULARLY, NO.

THE COURT: SO WHAT IS THE ALTERNATIVE? RIGHT.

MR. YOCHELSON: I THINK --

THE COURT: NOW, IF YOU HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE TO STOPPING THE TRIAL, TELL ME WHAT IT IS.

MS. CLARK: IF I HAD ONE, I CERTAINLY WOULD, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: OKAY.

MS. CLARK: WOULDN'T KEEP IT A SECRET.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MR. YOCHELSON: I THINK WE SIMPLY WANTED TO MAKE THE COURT AWARE OF THE PROBLEMS HERE BECAUSE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT COULD REOCCUR. I UNDERSTAND THERE ARE SOME OTHER ITEMS THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE EXAMINED AND WE WILL BE VEHEMENTLY OBJECTING AT THAT TIME TO THESE ITEMS LEAVING LOS ANGELES, AND HOPEFULLY WE CAN WORK OUT AN ALTERNATIVE TO WHAT WE WENT THROUGH THIS WEEKEND.

THE COURT: OKAY.

MR. YOCHELSON: BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT AND THIS IS HAPPENING.

MR. SCHECK: IF THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE COMMENT, LET ME JUST NOTE THAT THE COURT HAD SUGGESTED AN INVENTORY WITH EACH BOX AND THERE WAS NO INVENTORY PREPARED OUTSIDE OF THE BOX. WE FINISHED WITH THESE ITEMS FIRST BECAUSE WE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN IN TERMS OF THEM COMING BACK. OUR PEOPLE HAD NO DEALINGS WITH THE COURIERS FROM THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE. MR. RAQUEL WAS WATCHING THE ENTIRE PROCESS. IT IS REALLY THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO BRING IT BACK, AND IF THEY DIDN'T DO IT WITH THE FIRST COURIER, KNOWING WHAT WAS COMING NEXT, I DON'T REALLY THINK IT IS FAIR TO SAY THAT THAT IS SOMEHOW OUR FAULT.

THE COURT: WELL, COUNSEL, I'M NOT ASSIGNING FAULT TO ANYBODY OVER ANYTHING AT THIS POINT. THE ISSUE FOR THE COURT IS CAN WE PROCEED --

MR. SCHECK: I UNDERSTAND, YES.

THE COURT: -- WITH THE TRIAL, WITH THE JURY? THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS YES, WE CAN, SO WE WILL. THANK YOU.

MR. YOCHELSON: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. BACK ON THE RECORD THEN IN THE SIMPSON MATTER, IF I HAVEN'T ALREADY SAID THAT. ALL COUNSEL ARE PRESENT. DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE THE JURY, PLEASE.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: AND DETECTIVE LANGE, DO YOU WANT TO RETAKE THE WITNESS STAND, PLEASE.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED. WE ARE WAITING FOR ONE MORE, TWO MORE.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL. GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

THE JURY: GOOD AFTERNOON.

TOM LANGE, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE NOON RECESS, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:

THE COURT: DETECTIVE TOM LANGE IS STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND. GOOD AFTERNOON, DETECTIVE LANGE.

THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH.

THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

THE COURT: YOU MAY RESUME, MISS CLARK.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: YOU ARE WELCOME.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MS. CLARK: GOOD AFTERNOON.

THE JURY: GOOD AFTERNOON

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

BY MS. CLARK:

Q: WHEN WE LEFT OFF, DETECTIVE LANGE, YOU WERE DESCRIBING THE POSITION OF NICOLE BROWN WITH HER LEGS UNDER THE GATE. I WOULD LIKE TO ASK TO MARK NEXT IN ORDER PEOPLE'S 80.

THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 80.

MS. CLARK: IS THAT RIGHT? PEOPLE'S 80.

(PEO'S 80 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, YOU MIGHT WANT TO CUT THE FEED FOR THIS PHOTO.

THE COURT: I HAVE CUT IT.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 2, PLEASE.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE THAT, SIR?

A: YES. THOSE APPEAR TO BE THE LOWER RIGHT LEG AND FOOT AND LEFT FOOT OF NICOLE SIMPSON.

Q: AND THE STATIONARY GATE THAT YOU DESCRIBED, IS THAT WHAT HER LEGS ARE UNDER?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, DID YOU EXAMINE THE BOTTOM OF HER FEET, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT DID YOU FIND?

A: NOTHING. THEY WERE CLEAN.

Q: I'M SORRY?

A: NOTHING. THEY APPEARED TO BE CLEAN TO ME.

Q: NO BLOOD?

A: NO.

Q: WAS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU?

A: YES.

Q: WHY?

A: IT WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT THE VICTIM WAS MORE THAN LIKELY STRUCK BEFORE THERE WAS ANY BLOOD THAT -- THAT FLOWED AND PERHAPS WENT DOWN INITIALLY BEFORE THE FIGHT REALLY ENSUED WITH THE OTHER VICTIM AND DIDN'T -- OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T WALK THROUGH THE BLOOD DURING THE STRUGGLE.

Q: NOW, YOU SAID YOU MADE OBSERVATION. SHE HERSELF, HOWEVER, THE UPPER PORTION OF HER, WAS LYING IN QUITE A LOT OF BLOOD?

A: YES.

MS. CLARK: KEEP THE FEED CUT, YOUR HONOR.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: P-42, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND IS THAT THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU FOUND HER?

A: YES. IT WAS LOOKING WESTERLY.

Q: OKAY. AND DID YOU HAPPEN TO OBSERVE -- NOW WE ARE ON YOUR RETURN TO BUNDY WHEN YOU CAME BACK AT APPROXIMATELY 6:45?

A: APPROXIMATELY 6:45, SOMEWHERE IN THERE.

Q: A.M.? DID YOU MAKE A MORE DETAILED OBSERVATION OF THE FRONT WALKWAY THAT LEADS FROM THE SIDEWALK OF BUNDY TO THE FRONT STEPS OF THE LOCATION?

A: YES.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: CUT THE FEED ON THIS ONE. IT IS P-43-B.

MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.

Q: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: IS THAT THE FRONT WALKWAY I HAVE JUST DESCRIBED TO YOU?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT OBSERVED THERE?

A: YES. I OBSERVED WHAT APPEARED TO ME TO BE A RUN-OFF OF BLOOD FROM THAT VICTIM FLOWING DOWN THE SIDEWALK, WHICH WAS AT A SLIGHT ANGLE EASTWARDLY.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: P-43-A, YOUR HONOR, AGAIN --

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU SEE ANYTHING THAT LOOKS LIKE PAW PRINTS TO YOU IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?

A: YES. THEY APPEARED TO ME TO BE SOME TYPE OF BLOODY PAW PRINTS.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, DID YOU OBSERVE ANY SHOEPRINTS IN THAT FRONT WALKWAY?

A: NO.

Q: ON YOUR RETURN TO BUNDY DID YOU MAKE CLOSER OBSERVATIONS OF RON GOLDMAN'S BODY?

A: YES.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, THIS IS P-59. AGAIN WE NEED TO CUT THE FEED.

MS. CLARK: I ASSUME IT IS CUT AT THIS POINT, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US, IS THAT THE BODY OF RON GOLDMAN, SIR?

A: YES. THAT PHOTOGRAPH IS LOOKING DOWNWARD AND TOWARD THE NORTH -- NORTHWEST.

Q: OKAY. AND IS THAT THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU FOUND HIM?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, WHAT WERE YOU ABLE TO OBSERVE ON YOUR RETURN TO BUNDY AT APPROXIMATELY 6:45 WHEN YOU EXAMINED HIM MORE CLOSELY?

A: I OBSERVED THAT HIS HEAD APPEARED TO BE IN A WESTERLY DIRECTION AS YOU SEE IT HERE. THE EYES WERE OPENED. THE BODY APPEARED TO BE CURLED AROUND A STUMP WITH THE FEET KIND OF IN A SOUTH BY SOUTHEASTERLY DIRECTION. THE PENDLETON SHIRT THAT THE VICTIM WAS WEARING HAD SOMEHOW BEEN PULLED UP AROUND THE UPPER BACK. I OBSERVED WHAT APPEARED TO BE POSSIBLE DEFENSE WOUNDS TO I BELIEVE IT WAS THE OUTSIDE OF THE LEFT HAND. THE LEFT LEG APPEARED TO HAVE BEEN CUT. THERE WAS QUITE A BIT OF BLOOD COMING DOWN THE LEFT TROUSER LEG. THERE WAS SCRAPE MARKS AND BLOOD RUNNING ACROSS THE FACE.

Q: NOW, DID YOU MAKE ANY OBSERVATIONS WITH RESPECT TO -- YOU SEE THE SHOES THAT HE WAS WEARING DEPICTED IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?

A: YES.

Q: THE ONE THAT WE CAN SEE MOST FULLY WHICH APPEARS TO BE THE RIGHT FOOT, THEY APPEAR TO BE WHITE?

A: YES.

Q: ON ANY PORTION OF THOSE BOOTS WAS THERE ANY DISCOLORATION?

A: YES. I OBSERVED WHAT APPEARED TO BE BLOOD ON THE BOTTOMS OF THE SOLES OF THE FEET, THE SHOES.

Q: AND WHAT ABOUT THE TOPS, THE TOES OF EITHER OF THE SHOES, DID YOU OBSERVE BLOOD THERE?

A: I BELIEVE THERE WAS SOME SPATTERING.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: P-54-A.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT IS SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?

A: YES. THAT IS THE LEFT FOOT -- PARTIAL LEFT FOOT OF THE VICTIM, MR. GOLDMAN.

Q: IT APPEARS TO BE RED, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: AND YET YOU JUSTIFIED THOSE SHOES OR BOOTS AS BEING WHITE IN THE EARLIER PHOTOGRAPH. DID YOU OBSERVE THIS TOE PORTION OF THE LEFT BOOT TO BE THE COLOR DEPICTED IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT DID IT LOOK LIKE TO YOU?

A: IT LOOKED LIKE IT HAD -- LIKE IT APPEARS, AS RED.

Q: THE ITEMS OF EVIDENCE THAT ARE SHOWN UNDER THE PLANT, SIR, DID YOU CAUSE THESE PHOTOGRAPHS TO BE TAKEN?

A: YES.

Q: AND ARE THESE AS FOUND -- ARE THESE DEPICTED IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH AS THEY WERE FOUND?

A: YES.

Q: DO YOU SEE ANYTHING RESEMBLING A BLOODY SHOEPRINT IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?

A: YES.

Q: CAN YOU --

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO STEP DOWN, SIR, AND PERHAPS INDICATE THAT SHOEPRINT. DO YOU KNOW HOW TO USE THIS?

A: WE WILL SEE.

MS. CLARK: OKAY. FOR THE RECORD, I AM HAVING HIM USE THE POINT MAKER, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: THIS AREA RIGHT HERE APPEARED TO ME TO BE A BLOODY SHOEPRINT IMPRESSION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. IF YOU COULD PLEASE MARK THAT. DO YOU KNOW HOW TO?

A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)

MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS DONE SO, HAS CIRCLED THE AREA OF THE HEEL.

THE COURT: WELL, WE DON'T KNOW THAT.

MR. COCHRAN: STRIKE THAT CONCLUSION BY COUNSEL.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

MS. CLARK: WHAT APPEARS TO BE THE HEEL OF A BLOODY SHOEPRINT.

THE COURT: IT APPEARS TO BE A PATTERN MARK ON THE SIDEWALK IN BLOOD IS WHAT IT APPEARS TO BE.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WOULD YOU PLEASE PUT YOUR INITIALS IN THE UPPER LEFT-HAND CORNER, SIR?

A: HERE?

Q: NO, UP, UP?

A: RIGHT IN HERE?

Q: THAT IS GOOD, YEAH.

A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)

MS. CLARK: OKAY.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, MAY THE PRINT OF THIS PHOTOGRAPH BE MARKED 54-A-1?

THE COURT: 54-A-1.

(PEO'S 54-A-1 FOR ID = PRINT OF PHOTO)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, IF I MAY HAVE A MOMENT, I NEED TO CHANGE A RIBBON ON THE COLOR PRINTER.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU MAKE ANY OTHER OBSERVATIONS WITH RESPECT TO BLOOD FOUND AROUND THE BODIES OF THE VICTIMS IN THAT LOCATION?

A: YES. THERE APPEARED TO BE OTHER PARTIAL POSSIBLE BLOODY SHOE IMPRESSIONS BETWEEN THE TWO BODIES.

Q: NOW, WHEN YOU RETURNED TO THE SCENE AT BUNDY AT 6:45, SIR, DID YOU MAKE ANY OBSERVATIONS -- WHEN YOU RETURNED TO THE SCENE YOU ALREADY HAD SEEN THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS BEFORE YOU LEFT FOR THE FIRST TIME?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: OKAY. WHEN YOU CAME BACK AND YOU MADE THE OBSERVATIONS OF THE BODY OF RON GOLDMAN, DID YOU LOOK FOR ANY OTHER SHOEPRINTS OR SHOE IMPRESSIONS?

A: I LOOKED FOR POSSIBLE IMPRESSIONS IN THE DIRT AREA AROUND MR. GOLDMAN.

Q: AND DID YOU SEE ANY?

A: NO.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU MAKE ANY OBSERVATIONS CONCERNING THE CONDITION OF THE DIRT ON WHICH RON GOLDMAN'S BODY WAS LYING?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT OBSERVATION?

A: APPEARED TO BE LOOSE DIRT.

Q: WAS THERE ANY -- WHAT DID THE DIRT APPEAR AROUND HIS BODY -- DID YOU MAKE ANY SPECIFIC OBSERVATIONS OF ITS CONDITION?

A: SOME OF THE -- IN MY MIND SOME OF IT MIGHT SOILED HIS CLOTHING DURING THE STRUGGLE.

Q: DID YOU MAKE MEASUREMENTS, SIR, OF THE DISTANCE BETWEEN RON GOLDMAN'S BACK AND THE FENCE BEHIND HIM -- THAT IS THE FENCE TO THE NORTH OF HIM, AS WELL AS THE FENCE TO THE EAST OF HIM?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT WERE THOSE -- WHAT DID YOU MEASURE?

A: THE MEASUREMENT TO THE -- FROM THE BACK SIDE OF MR. GOLDMAN TO THE LOWER RUNG OF THE FENCE NORTH WAS I BELIEVE ONE FOOT TWO INCHES, AND I BELIEVE IT WAS THE SAME TO THE EAST.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 56-D, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ONE FOOT TWO INCHES? IF YOU CAN DESCRIBE TO US -- CAN YOU SEE ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH THE AREA THAT YOU MEASURED THAT YOU HAVE JUST DESCRIBED TO US?

A: I CAN SEE THE AREA TO THE RIGHT, WHICH WOULD BE TO THE EAST.

Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU MEASURED FROM WHAT POINT TO WHAT POINT WITH RESPECT TO THE EAST FENCE ON THIS PHOTOGRAPH?

A: WELL, IT WAS THE -- THE BOTTOM SIDE OF MR. GOLDMAN -- IF I HAVE MY SCHEMATIC, I SUPPOSE I CAN TELL YOU EXACTLY.

Q: WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY, SIR, IF YOU HAD THAT?

A: YES.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU MAKE A COPY OF THAT SCHEMATIC FOR ME?

A: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: JUDGE, DID HE MAKE A COPY FOR ME, ALSO?

MS. CLARK: YES. IT IS IN THE MURDER BOOK.

Q: YOU MADE A COPY FOR BOTH OF US, DIDN'T YOU, DETECTIVE LANGE, BOTH MYSELF AND THE DEFENSE?

MR. COCHRAN: GIVE ME MY COPY.

THE WITNESS: I BELIEVE I TURNED OVER THREE COPIES.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, WOULD IT HELP IF I HAD ONE OF THE LAW CLERKS MAKE A PHOTOCOPY OF THAT FOR YOU?

MR. COCHRAN: YES.

MS. CLARK: COUNSEL HAS IT; HE JUST HASN'T LOOKED AT IT.

THE COURT: MY QUESTION WAS WOULD IT HELP IF I HAD THE LAW CLERKS MAKE A PHOTOCOPY FOR YOU, ME, AND THE DETECTIVE.

MR. COCHRAN: YES.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: HALF DOZEN.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, ALL --

THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND, BUT IF IT IS NOT IMMEDIATELY ACCESSIBLE FOR BOTH SIDES. IT IS EASIER JUST TO MAKE COPIES OF IT. MRS. ROBERTSON, WOULD YOU HAVE MISS MIRANDA MAKE ADDITIONAL COPIES OF THESE AS WELL.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, THESE WERE PART OF DETECTIVE LANGE'S NOTES THAT WERE TURNED OVER A LONG TIME AGO.

THE COURT: I ASSUME THAT IS TRUE, BUT IT IS JUST HAVING IT ACCESSIBLE.

MR. COCHRAN: WELL, THAT IS NOT TRUE.

MS. CLARK: WELL, COUNSEL --

THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. THANK YOU.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

MS. CLARK: THE SCHEMATIC THAT THE WITNESS IS REFERRING TO IS --

THE COURT: HOLD ON, MISS CLARK.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: MR. FAIRTLOUGH. THIS IS 56 -- WHAT IS THE EXHIBIT NUMBER?

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: IT IS 56-G, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: G. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MISS CLARK, YOU MAY PROCEED.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT, SIR. I'M SHOWING YOU WHAT APPEARS TO BE A XEROXED COPY OF A SCHEMATIC. CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT I'M SHOWING YOU?

A: YES.

Q: AND CAN YOU TELL US APPROXIMATELY WHEN YOU DID THIS -- YOU FILLED IN THE DISTANCES ON THIS SCHEMATIC?

A: THE DISTANCES WERE DONE ON THE MORNING OF JUNE 13TH WITH THE BODIES IN PLACE.

Q: OKAY. AND WHEN DID YOU FILL IN THIS PARTICULAR SCHEMATIC?

A: THIS PARTICULAR SCHEMATIC WAS DONE PROBABLY SEVERAL WEEKS AGO.

Q: AND THIS IS THE ONE THAT SHOWS THE BODIES OF THE TWO VICTIMS?

A: YES.

Q: AND DID YOU TURN OVER COPIES OF THIS ONE THAT YOU DID SEVERAL WEEKS AGO TO THE D.A.'S OFFICE?

A: YES.

Q: AND DID YOU MAKE EXTRA COPIES FOR THE DEFENSE AS WELL?

A: I DID.

Q: AND THERE IS ANOTHER SCHEMATIC HERE SHOWING SOME CIRCLES AND SHAPES AND SOME NUMBERS. CAN YOU TELL US WHEN YOU DID THAT SCHEMATIC?

A: THAT SCHEMATIC WAS DONE ON NOVEMBER 4TH, 1994.

Q: AND DID YOU TURN OVER THAT WITH ADDITIONAL COPIES FOR THE DEFENSE BACK IN NOVEMBER OF '94?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, THERE IS A LAST ONE THAT WAS -- LAST ONE THAT SHOWS SOME KIND OF IRREGULAR SHAPE WITH TWO DISTANCES OR THREE DISTANCES MEASURED ON THAT. CAN YOU TELL US WHEN WAS THAT ONE DONE?

A: THAT WAS DONE YESTERDAY.

Q: AND WHAT IS THAT A SCHEMATIC OF?

A: THIS IS A SCHEMATIC OF THE DIRT ALCOVE AREA WHERE MR. GOLDMAN WAS FOUND AND OF THE TREE IN THE MIDDLE OF IT.

Q: THAT SHOWS THE MEASUREMENTS OF A TREE?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, THE SCHEMATIC YOU WERE REFERRING TO -- THE SCHEMATIC YOU -- THE SCHEMATIC YOU WERE REFERRING TO THAT YOU WANTED TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY WITH, IS THAT THE ONE WITH THE TWO BODIES IN IT THAT HAS BEEN TURNED OVER SEVERAL WEEKS AGO?

A: YES.

Q: AND IF YOU WOULD, SIR, GO AHEAD AND REFRESH YOUR MEMORY WITH RESPECT TO THAT.

A: OKAY. (WITNESS COMPLIES.)

Q: AND DID YOU MEASURE THE DISTANCES BETWEEN RON GOLDMAN'S BODY -- AT SOME POINT ON RON GOLDMAN'S BODY AND THE EAST -- THE EAST FENCE THAT IS DEPICTED AT THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE OF THE PHOTOGRAPH AS WE FACE IT MARKED PEOPLE'S --

THE COURT: 56-G.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 56-G.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: 56-G?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT WAS THE DISTANCE, SIR?

A: ONE FEET TWO INCHES.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S 59, YOUR HONOR. AGAIN YOU WILL NEED TO CUT THE FEED FOR THIS PHOTO.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND DID YOU MEASURE THE DISTANCE BETWEEN SOME POINT ON RON GOLDMAN'S BODY AND THE FENCE DEPICTED AT THE TOP OF THE PHOTOGRAPH AS WE FACE IT?

A: YES. THAT IS LOOKING TO THE NORTH FROM THE SAME POSITION IN THE LOWER BACK OF MR. GOLDMAN, I MEASURED IT TO THE NORTH FENCE.

Q: AS --

A: ONE FEET TWO INCHES.

Q: AND DID YOU MEASURE THE DISTANCE BETWEEN ANY POINT NEAR OR ON RON GOLDMAN'S BODY AND THE EDGE OF THE DIRT WALKWAY THAT IS SHOWN AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS PHOTOGRAPH WHERE THE WHITE OBJECT -- THE ENVELOPE IS?

A: YES. MAY I LOOK AT THE SCHEMATIC?

Q: YES.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S 54-A.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

THE COURT: WITHDRAWN.

THE WITNESS: I BELIEVE IT IS THE LEFT FOOT, THE END OF THE LEFT FOOT, THE TOES, WERE EIGHT INCHES FROM THE EDGE OF THE WALKWAY WHERE THE DIRT MEETS THE WALKWAY.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MS. CLARK: NOW.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S 54-A, YOUR HONOR.

MS. CLARK: OKAY.

Q: SO THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THAT TOE DEPICTED IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH AND THE EDGE OF THE WALKWAY WAS EIGHT --

A: EIGHT INCHES.

Q: EIGHT INCHES.

MR. COCHRAN: WHAT IS THIS EXHIBIT, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: THIS IS --

MS. CLARK: 54 -- 54-A, 54-A.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S 59, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. DID YOU MEASURE ANY DISTANCES FROM AN AREA NEARER TO THE CENTER OF RON GOLDMAN'S BODY TO THE EDGE OF THE WALKWAY?

A: FROM THE CENTER OF HIS BODY?

Q: ANY -- WHAT OTHER DISTANCES DID YOU MEASURE IN THIS AREA OF WHERE RON GOLDMAN WAS FOUND?

A: I MEASURED THE LEFT HEEL TO THE EAST FENCE.

Q: AND THE LEFT HEEL TO THE EAST FENCE WAS?

A: TWO INCHES.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

THE WITNESS: AND I MEASURED THE DISTANCE FROM THE FOREHEAD OF MR. GOLDMAN TO THE TOP OF THE HEAD OF VICTIM SIMPSON.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT WAS THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE FOREHEAD OF RON GOLDMAN AND THE TOP OF THE HEAD OF MS. BROWN?

A: FOUR FEET TEN INCHES.

Q: CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHETHER OR NOT RON GOLDMAN WAS -- RON GOLDMAN'S BODY WAS FOUND ON TOP OF ANY OBJECT OR WAS IT LYING FLAT ON THE DIRT?

A: HE APPEARED TO BE LYING ON HIS RIGHT SIDE ON TOP OF A STUMP, A WOOD STUMP.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, MAY THIS NEXT PHOTOGRAPH BE MARKED PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER, PEOPLE'S 81?

THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 81.

(PEO'S 81 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. IF YOU COULD DESCRIBE FOR US, SIR, WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT HERE?

A: THAT IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE AREA WHERE MR. GOLDMAN HAD BEEN LYING ONCE HE WAS REMOVED. IT IS LOOKING NORTH BY NORTHWESTERLY. IT SHOWS WHAT APPEARS TO BE TWO STUMPS.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, I'M GOING TO RELEASE THE FEED ON THIS.

MS. CLARK: OKAY.

THE COURT: LET ME KNOW IF THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE THAT IS COMING UP, MR. FAIRTLOUGH.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: IF YOU COULD DIRECT THE ARROW, SIR, TO WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AS TO WHERE THOSE STUMPS ARE.

A: OKAY. IF YOU BRING IT TO THE RIGHT A LITTLE BIT, COME DOWN RIGHT BELOW, THERE IS A STUMP RIGHT UP A LITTLE. IF YOU GO UP TO THE CARD, RIGHT BELOW THAT AREA SHOULD BE ONE STUMP. IT IS A LITTLE DIFFICULT FOR ME TO SEE HERE.

Q: YOU BELIEVE THAT IS THE GENERAL AREA?

A: THAT LOOKS LIKE THE GENERAL AREA, YES.

Q: OKAY. LEAVE AN ARROW THERE.

Q: AND THE --

A: ANOTHER ONE IS DOWN A LITTLE LOWER TO THE LEFT, LEFT, A LITTLE MORE, DOWN, DOWN, RIGHT IN THAT AREA THERE, (INDICATING), IS A SECOND STUMP.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND THEN YOU HAVE -- CAN YOU TELL US WHERE THE BODY OF RON GOLDMAN WAS IN RELATION TO THESE TWO STUMPS?

A: THE FRONT PORTION OF THE BODY WAS LYING JUST TO THE REAR OF HER, BEHIND THE FORWARD STUMP, AND I BELIEVE HIS -- SOME PART OF HIS BACK WAS LYING ACROSS THE SMALLER STUMP TO THE TOP OF THE PHOTOGRAPH.

Q: KIND OF IN BETWEEN THOSE TWO POINTS THEN?

A: MORE OR LESS.

Q: OKAY. DID YOU TAKE ANY MEASUREMENTS OF -- FROM THE LOWER AND UPPER STUMP TO THE EDGE OF THE WALKWAY OR THAT STAIRWAY WALL THAT YOU SEE IN THE LEFT-HAND PORTION OF THE PHOTOGRAPH?

A: YES.

Q: OKAY. THAT WHITE -- THAT WHITE CEMENT-LOOKING AREA IN THE LOWER LEFT-HAND PORTION OF THE PHOTOGRAPH, SIR --

A: YES.

Q: -- WHAT IS THAT?

A: THAT IS THE STAIRWELL -- THE WALL THAT IS TO THE NORTH SIDE OF THE STAIRWELL LEADING UP TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. IF YOU COULD TELL US, FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IS THE MEASUREMENT THAT YOU MADE OF THE NORTH STUMP, THAT WOULD BE THE ONE UP AT THE TOP OF THE PHOTOGRAPH TO THE EDGE OF THE WALKWAY? WHAT WAS THAT DISTANCE?

A: I HAVEN'T COMMITTED THOSE MEASUREMENTS TO MEMORY, IF I COULD SEE A SCHEMATIC.

Q: YES. REFRESH YOUR MEMORY?

A: I DON'T HAVE THAT WITH ME.

Q: IT IS NOT ON THAT?

A: NO, THESE AREN'T THE STUMP MEASUREMENTS.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: MAY A PRINT OF THE SCREEN IMAGE BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 81-A?

THE COURT: 81-A.

(PEO'S 81-A FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH/COMPUTER PRINT)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. SHOWING YOU THE DIAGRAM THAT YOU MADE BACK IN NOVEMBER OF 1994, CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, IF THAT HELPS TO REFRESH YOUR MEMORY AS TO THE MEASUREMENTS OF THOSE STUMPS THAT YOU'VE JUST IDENTIFIED?

A: YES.

Q: FIRST OF ALL, WITH RESPECT TO THE NORTH STUMP THAT IS AT THE TOP OF THE PHOTOGRAPH NOW BEING SHOWN, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT MEASUREMENT YOU MADE?

A: YES. THE NORTH STUMP WAS THREE FEET EIGHT INCHES SOUTH TO THE WALKWAY.

Q: SO FROM THAT LOWER STUMP TO THE EDGE OF THE WALKWAY WAS THREE FEET EIGHT INCHES?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT MEASUREMENT DID YOU MAKE, IF ANY, OF THE SOUTH STUMP TO THE EDGE OF THE WALKWAY?

A: THE SOUTH STUMP WAS ONE FEET ELEVEN INCHES TO THE EDGE OF THE WALKWAY.

Q: DID YOU MAKE AN AREA -- A MEASUREMENT OF THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE STAIRWAY WALL, THAT WHITE BLOCK-LIKE OBJECT IN THE LOWER LEFT-HAND CORNER OF THE PHOTOGRAPH, AND ANY OF THE FENCES, EITHER THE NORTH OR THE EAST FENCE?

A: YES. I MADE A MEASUREMENT FROM THE WALKWAY TO THE NORTH FENCE.

Q: TO THE NORTH FENCE? AND WHAT WAS THAT?

A: FIVE FEET EIGHT INCHES.

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS FROM WHERE TO WHERE? WHAT IS FIVE FEET EIGHT INCHES?

THE COURT: DO YOU WANT TO REPEAT THE ANSWER. I THOUGHT IT WAS FROM THE EDGE OF THE WALKWAY TO THE EDGE OF THE FENCE.

MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. THANK YOU.

THE WITNESS: THAT'S CORRECT, YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT ABOUT FROM THE -- DID YOU MEASURE FROM THE STAIRWAY WALL TO THE FENCE?

A: STAIRWELL WALL TO THE FENCE IS THE SAME, FIVE FEET EIGHT INCHES.

Q: NO, NO, I'M SORRY. I'M NOT BEING CLEAR. EXCUSE ME.

FROM THE STAIRWAY WALL THIS LOWER LEFT-HAND CORNER ACROSS TO THE EAST FENCE, DID YOU MEASURE THAT?

A: YES. THAT WAS THREE FEET THREE INCHES.

Q: I'M SORRY, I DIDN'T HEAR YOU.

A: THREE FEET THREE INCHES.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, MAY THIS NEXT PHOTOGRAPH BE MARKED PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER, PEOPLE'S 82?

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 82.

(PEO'S 82 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT, SIR. CAN YOU TELL US WHAT WE SEE HERE?

A: YES. THAT IS A CLOSE-UP PHOTOGRAPH OF THE STUMP THAT I PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED. IT WAS BENEATH -- I BELIEVE BENEATH MR. GOLDMAN.

Q: AND IS THAT THE NORTH OR THE SOUTH STUMP?

A: THAT IS THE NORTH STUMP.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, MAY THIS BE MARKED PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER, PEOPLE'S 83?

THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 83.

(PEO'S 83 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S 83, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT IS DEPICTED IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?

A: YES. THAT IS A PHOTOGRAPH LOOKING NORTH TO THE NORTH FENCE DESCRIBED EARLIER, AND THERE IS A PAGER THAT APPEARS ABOUT THE MIDDLE OF THE FRAME.

Q: OKAY. NOW, THIS PHOTOGRAPH, AS WELL AS THE ONE PREVIOUSLY SHOWN TO YOU, WERE THESE TAKEN BEFORE OR AFTER THE BODIES WERE REMOVED?

A: AFTER.

Q: OKAY. CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US WHAT -- WHAT IS DEPICTED IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH AND WHAT YOU SAW IN THIS AREA AT THE TIME AFTER THE BODIES WERE REMOVED?

A: YES. I OBSERVED THE -- THE PAGER. THE ITEM THERE IN THE CENTER IS A PAGER THAT WAS IN THE DIRT LYING FOUR INCHES THE OTHER SIDE OF OR TO THE NORTH OF THE LOWER RUNG OF THAT FENCE. ADDITIONALLY, THERE IS A, IN THE CENTER OF THE PICTURE, A SMALL TREE THAT IS SUPPORTED BY A PIECE OF WOOD.

Q: THAT STICK THAT IS IN THE -- APPROXIMATELY THE CENTER, JUST A LITTLE TO THE RIGHT OF THE CENTER OF THE PHOTOGRAPH, WHAT DID THAT LOOK LIKE TO YOU?

A: THE STICK -- THE VERTICAL STICK?

Q: UH-HUH.

A: IT WAS THERE TO SUPPORT WHAT APPEARED TO BE A SMALL TREE.

Q: THERE APPEARS TO BE A RED SUBSTANCE ON IT. DOES THAT LOOK LIKE BLOOD TO YOU?

A: YES.

Q: WAS MR. GOLDMAN'S BODY IN CONTACT WITH THAT ITEM?

A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

MR. COCHRAN: AT WHAT POINT? FOUNDATIONAL, YOUR HONOR.

MS. CLARK: BEFORE THE BODY WAS MOVED.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: IT APPEARED IT MAY HAVE BEEN, YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: THERE SEEMS TO BE A -- SOME HOLE THERE NEXT TO THAT -- OR JUST BEHIND THAT STICK. CAN YOU TELL US IF THAT IS THE WAY IT LOOKED TO YOU?

A: YES, IT IS.

Q: WAS IT VERY DEEP?

A: NO.

Q: AND THE RUNGS OF THE -- THIS IS THE NORTH GATE WE ARE FACING -- THE NORTH FENCE, I MEAN?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: DO YOU SEE WHERE THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME RED ON THOSE?

A: YES.

Q: DID THAT APPEAR TO BE BLOOD TO YOU?

A: YES, THERE APPEARED TO BE TRANSFERS ON THE HORIZONTAL AND PERPENDICULAR RUNGS OF THE FENCE.

Q: CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US, SIR, WERE THERE ANY OTHER WOODY ITEMS LIKE THAT STICK THAT YOU HAVE JUST -- THAT YOU HAVE DESCRIBED FOR US IN THE -- TO THE RIGHT OF THE CENTER OF THIS PHOTOGRAPH, IN THAT LOCATION IN THE -- THAT RON GOLDMAN'S BODY WAS FOUND?

A: WOODY ITEMS?

Q: YEAH, WOOD, TREES, STICKS?

A: THERE WAS THE -- A LARGE TREE TO THE LEFT OF THIS PHOTOGRAPH WHICH HAD COME IN CONTACT WITH THE TOP OF THE HEAD OF MR. GOLDMAN.

Q: WHAT ELSE WAS IN THAT AREA?

A: THERE ARE LEAVES.

Q: WERE THERE ANY OTHER PLANTS IN THE AREA?

A: NOT IN THAT IMMEDIATE AREA. THERE WERE IN THE LOWER RIGHT-HAND CORNER OF THE PHOTOGRAPH. THERE WAS A SMALL PLANT NEAR THE GLOVE.

Q: UH-HUH. NOW, YOU INDICATED THAT PAGER -- WAS THAT THE LOCATION IN WHICH YOU FOUND IT, SIR, WHERE IT IS SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?

A: YES.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE HERE A SMALL MANILA ENVELOPE.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MS. CLARK: THAT APPEARS TO BE RESEALED WITH A YELLOW EVIDENCE TAG DATED FEBRUARY 17, 1995, AND ANOTHER DATE OF FEBRUARY 18, 1995. I'M GOING TO OPEN THIS ENVELOPE AND SHOW THE CONTENTS TO DETECTIVE LANGE. THIS HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 31-A.

THE COURT: YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT IS BEING SHOWN HERE, SIR?

A: MAY I TOUCH IT?

Q: YES.

A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) THAT APPEARS TO BE THE PAGER I OBSERVED.

Q: NOW, AFTER THE BODIES WERE REMOVED, DID YOU GO UP AND MORE CLOSELY EXAMINE THE PAGER, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: PRIOR TO THE BODIES BEING REMOVED FROM THAT LOCATION, DID YOU EXAMINE THE PAGER?

A: I OBSERVED IT. I DON'T RECALL SPECIFICALLY EXAMINING IT.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 54(1).

THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 54 --

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 1.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT IS SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT IS THAT?

A: THAT IS A WHITE ENVELOPE THAT I OBSERVED AT THE CRIME SCENE ON THE DIRT ADJACENT AND JUST TO THE NORTH OF THE WALKWAY THAT CONTAINED WHAT I BELIEVED TO BE PRESCRIPTION GLASSES.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE HERE A PLASTIC ENVELOPE THAT HAS BEEN SEALED WITH A YELLOW SEAL DATED FEBRUARY 18, 1995. I'M GOING TO OPEN THE SEAL.

THE COURT: DO WE NEED TO TAKE THAT OUT?

MS. CLARK: I'M JUST GOING TO LET HIM LOOK AT IT. I CAN ZIP-LOCK IT.

THE COURT: CAN YOU SEE IT THROUGH THE BAG THERE, DETECTIVE?

THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: THERE IS ANOTHER ENVELOPE?

A: YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT THAT IS, SIR?

A: THAT APPEARS TO BE THE ENVELOPE DEPICTED IN THE PHOTOGRAPH WITH THE GLASSES.

Q: NOW, WHEN YOU WERE AT THE SCENE, WERE YOU ABLE TO TELL WHAT WAS INSIDE THE ENVELOPE?

A: YES.

Q: AND HOW WAS THAT?

A: AS YOU NOTE ON THE UPPER LEFT-HAND CORNER OF THE PHOTOGRAPH, THERE IS AN OPENED AREA WHERE THE ENVELOPE HAS PARTED JUST ENOUGH WHERE ONE COULD PEER INSIDE AND SEE THAT THERE WERE APPARENTLY GLASSES.

Q: WERE YOU ABLE TO MAKE THAT OBSERVATION WITHOUT PICKING IT UP?

A: YES.

Q: AND SHOWING YOU -- LOOKING INSIDE THE ENVELOPE NOW AS I AM HOLDING THE PLASTIC BAG WITHOUT LIFTING OUT THE ENVELOPE, CAN YOU SEE WHAT IS INSIDE?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT IS INSIDE?

A: IT APPEARS TO BE PRESCRIPTION GLASSES.

Q: DO THEY LOOK LIKE THE ONES YOU SAW ON THE MORNING OF JUNE 13TH INSIDE THAT ENVELOPE?

A: YES.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, PEOPLE'S -- WHAT HAS BEEN REFERENCED AS PEOPLE'S 54-A.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 54-A.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOU MIGHT NEED TO CUT THE FEED FOR THIS PHOTO.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECALL THE GLOVE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH AS YOU DESCRIBED AS HAVING SEEN AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: I'M SHOWING YOU WHAT IS NOW CONTAINED IN A MANILA ENVELOPE, AND A PAPER BAG, A BROWN PAPER BAG AND THE MANILA ENVELOPE NOW CONTAINS SOME PAPER BINDLES. I WOULD ASK YOU TO LOOK INSIDE THE BAG, SIR, AND TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT YOU SEE. WOULD THE COURT LIKE TO EXPLAIN -- TO TELL THE JURY WHY THEY ARE PACKAGED?

THE COURT: YES. MR. COCHRAN, WHY DON'T YOU STEP AROUND SO THE JURY CAN SEE.

MR. COCHRAN: YES.

THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, AS YOU RECALL FROM FRIDAY, THESE ITEMS WERE PLACED IN A PLASTIC BAG; HOWEVER, IT WAS DETERMINED BETTER PACKAGING WITH REGARD TO BIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE TO HAVE IT IN A PAPER BAG RATHER THAN IN A PLASTIC BAG, SO THAT IS WHY IT IS REPACKAGED AT THIS TIME.

THE WITNESS: THAT APPEARS TO BE THE GLOVE IN THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT I OBSERVED.

MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE ITEM WAS PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS 77 AND 77-A RESPECTIVELY, THE GLOVE AND THE BAG.

THE COURT: NOTED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, SHOWING YOU, SIR, ITEMS MARKED AS 78 AND 78-A, HAS ALSO BEEN REPACKAGED, AND I ASK YOU TO LOOK INSIDE THE BROWN PAPER BAG AND TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT YOU SEE IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH -- IN THAT BAG?

A: YES. THAT APPEARS TO BE THE DARK BLUE KNIT SKI CAP IN THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT I OBSERVED AT THE SCENE.

Q: NOW, DID YOU DIRECT ANYONE TO -- DID YOU ULTIMATELY DIRECT THAT THESE ITEMS BE COLLECTED?

A: YES.

Q: AT THE TIME THAT YOU MADE YOUR OBSERVATIONS OF THESE ITEMS, SIR, WERE YOU WEARING GLOVES?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT KIND OF GLOVES WERE YOU WEARING?

A: THEY WERE A PLASTIC GLOVE, THIN PLASTIC GLOVE.

Q: I'M SORRY?

A: THIN PLASTIC GLOVE, RUBBER.

Q: AND WHY WERE YOU WEARING GLOVES AT THAT TIME?

A: GENERALLY WHEN I AM WORKING A CRIME SCENE OF THAT NATURE, THERE MIGHT COME A TIME WHEN I MIGHT HAVE TO TOUCH SOMETHING, SO IT IS TO PREVENT CONTAMINATION OF EVIDENCE, AS WELL AS TO PROTECT MYSELF.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WERE YOU WEARING BOOTIES, SIR?

A: NO.

Q: OVER YOUR SHOES?

A: NO.

Q: WHY NOT?

A: I HAVE ONLY WORN BOOTIES AT THE CORONER'S OFFICE FOR SELF-PROTECTION. I HAVE NEVER WORN THEM AT A CRIME SCENE.

MR. COCHRAN: MOVE TO STRIKE AS NONRESPONSIVE.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: HAVE YOU YOURSELF EVER WORN BOOTIES AT A CRIME SCENE?

A: NO.

Q: HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANY DETECTIVE YOU HAVE EVER WORKED WITH OR SEEN AT A CRIME SCENE WEAR BOOTIES?

A: NO.

Q: CAN YOU THINK OF -- STRIKE THAT. DOES ANYONE AT A CRIME SCENE WEAR BOOTIES, SIR?

A: YES. I HAVE SEEN SOME TECHNICIANS WEAR THEM AT TIMES.

Q: CRIMINALISTS OR CORONERS?

A: UMM --

Q: INVESTIGATORS?

A: I DON'T RECALL CORONER'S PEOPLE. CRIMINALISTS, PRINT PEOPLE. IN FACT, I BELIEVE THE PRINT PEOPLE WERE WEARING BOOTIES AT THIS LOCATION.

Q: AND WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF WEARING BOOTIES?

A: FOR SELF-PROTECTION AGAINST CONTAMINATION.

Q: CONTAMINATION OF --

A: OF OUTSIDE SOURCES, PERHAPS FROM BLOOD. WHEN THERE IS A BLOODY CRIME SCENE, THERE IS ALWAYS A POSSIBILITY ONE COULD CONTACT SOME TYPE OF A VIRUS AND CONSEQUENTLY SOME PEOPLE WEAR THOSE.

Q: SO IS IT TO PROTECT THE PERSON WHO IS WEARING THE BOOTIES?

A: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR, AS TO WHY SOMEBODY ELSE IS WEARING BOOTIES. THERE WOULD BE MULTIPLE REASONS.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR --

THE COURT: OVERRULED. SPEAKING OBJECTION. IT IS ONE EXPLANATION. I AM SURE THERE WILL BE OTHERS. THANK YOU. PROCEED.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S 83, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: SIR, DID YOU DIRECT THE PHOTOGRAPHER TO TAKE THIS PICTURE?

A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

Q: DID YOU ASK THAT THIS AREA BE PHOTOGRAPHED?

A: EARLIER I DID. NOT THIS PARTICULAR PICTURE. THIS WAS OBVIOUSLY DONE WITH THE CRIMINALIST.

Q: IS THERE SOMETHING SIGNIFICANT ABOUT THE HOLE THAT YOU DESCRIBED FOR US EARLIER THAT IS SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?

A: THE SIGNIFICANT THING TO ME AT THE TIME WAS THAT IT APPEARED TO BE FRESHLY DUG OUT.

Q: SO WHAT DID THAT MEAN TO YOU?

A: TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THE SCENE, IT WOULD MEAN TO ME THAT THERE WAS PROBABLY A STRUGGLE IN THAT IMMEDIATE AREA AND PERHAPS THIS WAS DONE WITH THE FLAILING OF FEET OR MOVEMENT WITHIN THAT AREA BETWEEN THE SUSPECT AND THE VICTIM.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, PEOPLE'S 56-B.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU SEE WHAT IS DEPICTED IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT IS IT?

A: IT IS A CLOSE-UP OF A SET OF KEYS FOUND ON THE GROUND JUST TO THE EAST OF MR. GOLDMAN'S LEFT FOOT AS DEPICTED IN THE FOREGROUND.

Q: AND DID YOU WANT THIS PARTICULAR ITEM PHOTOGRAPHED?

A: YES.

Q: WHY?

A: TO SHOW THE RELATIONSHIP -- FIRSTLY, TO SHOW WHERE IT WAS LOCATED AND THEN THE RELATIONSHIP TO MR. GOLDMAN.

Q: AND WERE THE FINDING OF THOSE KEYS NEAR THE FOOT OF MR. GOLDMAN IMPORTANT TO YOU?

A: THEY WERE TO ME.

Q: WHY?

A: BECAUSE OF THE LOCATION AND THE FACT THAT MR. GOLDMAN HAD POCKETS IN HIS PANTS, IT APPEARED THAT HE MAY VERY WELL HAVE HAD THOSE KEYS IN HIS HAND AT THE TIME HE WAS ATTACKED.

Q: WHICH INDICATES WHAT?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT. CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR.

MS. CLARK: TO HIM.

MR. COCHRAN: NO PROPER FOUNDATION, NO AREA OF EXPERTISE.

THE COURT: LET ME SEE YOU OVER AT SIDE BAR.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)

THE COURT: OKAY. WHAT WAS THE QUESTION, MISS CLARK? WHAT WAS THE QUESTION?

MS. CLARK: THE QUESTION --

(RECORD READ.)

MS. CLARK: AND THEN I MEANT TO SAY "TO YOU."

THE COURT: I THOUGHT HE HAS ALREADY TESTIFIED THAT IT APPEARED TO HIM THAT SINCE HE HAD POCKETS HE HAD THE KEYS IN HIS HANDS WHEN THE FIGHT STARTED.

MR. COCHRAN: THERE WAS A QUESTION BEYOND THAT.

MS. CLARK: AND THE QUESTION BEYOND THAT IS AND WHAT DID THAT INDICATE TO YOU?

MR. COCHRAN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION AS TO WHAT -- THE FIRST PART IS QUESTIONABLE, BUT THERE IS ANOTHER QUESTION.

MS. CLARK: IT IS NOT SPECULATION. HE IS TALKING ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO HIM?

THE COURT: WHAT IS HE GOING TO SAY?

MS. CLARK: I THINK HE IS GOING TO SAY THAT IT INDICATED SURPRISE.

MR. COCHRAN: YOU SEE, THAT IS SPECULATION.

MS. CLARK: TO HIM. HOW CAN IT BE SPECULATION WHEN HE IS TALKING ABOUT WHAT HE CONCLUDED BASED ON WHAT HE SAW? IT MIGHT BE SPECULATION AS TO WHAT ANOTHER PERSON WOULD CONCLUDE, BUT HE CAN CERTAINLY INDICATE WHAT SIGNIFICANCE THIS ITEM HAD TO HIM.

MR. COCHRAN: MAY I RESPOND? IT IS IRRELEVANT WHAT IT MEANS TO HIM. THIS IS A QUESTION FOR THE JURY, NOT FOR HIM, WHAT HE THINKS. I MEAN, HE HAS ALREADY TOLD US ABOUT THE KEYS AND NOT BEING IN THE POCKETS AND THAT SEEMS ON THE EDGE AND I DIDN'T OBJECT, BUT NOW THEY ARE GOING THIS NEXT STEP IS A QUESTION FOR THE JURY. HE DOESN'T MAKE THE DECISION. THE JURY MAKES THE DECISION IN THIS CASE. AND THAT IS SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR, BEYOND THE PALE. THERE IS NO FOUNDATION FOR THAT.

MS. CLARK: HE IS ENTITLED -- HE IS THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER. HE DIRECTED THAT CERTAIN THINGS BE DONE, PHOTOGRAPHS BE TAKEN, MEASUREMENTS BE TAKEN FOR A REASON. THINGS HAD SIGNIFICANCE FOR A REASON AND HE IS ENTITLED TO EXPLAIN THOSE REASONS.

THE COURT: UH-HUH.

MS. CLARK: THIS IS NOT THE PATROL OFFICER AND THIS IS THE ONE WHO MAKES DECISIONS.

THE COURT: I AM NOT INTERESTED IN THAT EXPLANATION. I MEAN, DO YOU THINK IT IS A LOGICAL INFERENCE THAT THAT MEANS HE WAS TAKEN BY SURPRISE? DO YOU THINK THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS SUBJECT TO THIS KIND OF OPINION? YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY ASKING OPINION.

MS. CLARK: NO, IT IS MORE THAN AN OPINION, BECAUSE WE ARE, AFTER ALL, TALKING ABOUT SOMEBODY WITH EXPERTISE. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SOMEBODY WHO HAS ANALYZED A CERTAIN NUMBER OF CRIME SCENES. HE IS TESTIFYING AS AN EXPERT AND BASED --

THE COURT: HAS HE TESTIFIED?

MR. SHAPIRO: HE HAS NOT.

MR. COCHRAN: HAS HE BEEN AN EXPERT ONE TIME? SHE HASN'T EVEN BROUGHT THAT OUT. THERE IS NO PROPER FOUNDATION.

MS. CLARK: I BROUGHT OUT THAT HE HAS INVESTIGATED HUNDREDS OF HOMICIDES. I LAID THAT FOUNDATION IN THE VERY BEGINNING, HOW MANY HOMICIDES HE HAS INVESTIGATED.

THE COURT: HOLD ON. HOLD ON.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: YOU DIDN'T GO INTO HOW MANY HOMICIDES HE HAS INVESTIGATED AND ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF.

MS. CLARK: YOU ARE KIDDING?

MR. COCHRAN: JUDGE, MAY I BE HEARD? SHE HASN'T GONE INTO -- I KNOW THERE IS OTHER TESTIMONY, BUT JUDGE, STILL THE AREA OF SURPRISE IS OPINION AND THAT IS NOT RELEVANT. THAT IS NOT RELEVANT TO THIS JURY. YOU HAVE ALREADY RULED ON THAT. SO LET ME MOVE ON. SHE CAN LAY THE FOUNDATION ALL SHE WANTS.

THE COURT: AT THIS POINT THERE IS NO FOUNDATION FOR THE QUESTION.

MR. COCHRAN: BACK UP HERE AGAIN, YOUR HONOR. WHAT HAPPENED IS THAT YOU ASKED HIM "WHEN DID YOU JOIN THE LAPD, HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A DETECTIVE, HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A HOMICIDE DETECTIVE," BUT YOU NEVER ASKED HIM "HOW MANY HOMICIDES HAVE YOU INVESTIGATED?"

MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR THAT NOW.

MS. CLARK: STANDARD ROUTINE STUFF. I JUST DIDN'T BELIEVE IT.

MR. COCHRAN: THIS IS YOUR FIRST CASE IN A LONG TIME. YOU HAVE BEEN AN ADMINISTRATOR, WE CAN TELL.

THE COURT: COUNSEL, ASSUMING THAT SHE GETS THE APPROPRIATE ANSWERS, I'M GOING TO ALLOW THE QUESTION AND ANSWER BECAUSE I THINK HE CAN OPINE THAT BASED UPON HIS EXPERIENCE, ASSUMING IT IS THERE.

MR. COCHRAN: MAY I BE HEARD, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: SURE.

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, SURPRISE? HOW CAN HE OPINE THAT? HE DIDN'T HAVE A VOTE. I MEAN, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO -- I MEAN, THAT IS PREPOSTEROUS FOR HIM TO UNDERSTAND THAT HE COULD SAY WHETHER HE WAS TAKEN BY SURPRISE. WHAT DOES IT SAY THAT? HOW DO WE KNOW? HOW DO YOU SEPARATE THAT OUT? WE NEED A FURTHER FOUNDATION.

THE COURT: COUNSEL, COUNSEL, IT GOES TO WHY MEN SHAKE HANDS, IT GOES TO WHY MEN GO ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE ROAD INSTEAD OF THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE ROAD, SO THAT YOU HAVE YOUR SWORD HAND FREE. IF YOU HAVE YOUR KEYS IN YOUR SWORD HAND --

MR. COCHRAN: JUDGE, I DON'T THINK --

THE COURT: I KNOW MR. BAILEY CAN APPRECIATE THIS KIND OF STUFF.

MR. COCHRAN: IN 1394, YOUR HONOR. I THINK THAT IS THE RANKEST FORM OF SPECULATION AND SURPRISE HERE. THERE ARE OTHER THEORIES.

THE COURT: I THINK IT IS A LOGICAL CONCLUSION.

MR. COCHRAN: GEE, JUDGE. STREET SAVVY.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MISS CLARK, YOU MAY LAY SOME ADDITIONAL FOUNDATION.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

Q: DETECTIVE LANGE, HOW MANY HOMICIDES HAVE YOU INVESTIGATED, SIR?

A: EITHER DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY, APPROXIMATELY 250 TO 300.

Q: AND THAT IS OVER HOW MANY YEARS?

A: TWENTY YEARS OF HOMICIDE.

Q: AND CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, THEN YOU INDICATED THAT THE FACT THAT THE -- THAT RON GOLDMAN'S PANTS CONTAINED POCKETS AND THE FACT THAT YOU FOUND KEYS ON THE GROUND --

MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: -- WAS IMPORTANT TO YOU?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHY WAS IT IMPORTANT TO YOU?

A: BECAUSE IT WOULD SHOW TO ME THAT PERHAPS MR. GOLDMAN HAD THOSE KEYS IN HIS HAND AND HAD JUST PERHAPS STOPPED BY FOR A SHORT TIME.

MS. CLARK: OKAY.

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS SPECULATION. THAT IS SPECULATIVE.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT DID THAT -- AND THEN FINDING THE KEYS ON THE GROUND INDICATED WHAT TO YOU IF HE WAS CARRYING THEM IN HIS HAND AT THE TIME OF THE ATTACK?

MR. COCHRAN: SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR. HE WASN'T THERE.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: I'M SORRY, COULD YOU REPEAT THAT?

Q: BY MS. CLARK: IF HE WAS CARRYING THE KEYS IN HIS HAND AT THE TIME OF THE ATTACK, WHAT DID THAT INDICATE TO YOU ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE ATTACK?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED. WHAT IS THAT -- IF HE WAS CARRYING THE KEYS IN HIS HAND, WHAT WOULD THAT INDICATE TO YOU, DETECTIVE?

THE WITNESS: PERHAPS THAT HE WAS SURPRISED.

THE COURT: NEXT QUESTION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, THE -- IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY SEEN, THE GATE THAT FACES BUNDY, THE GATE TO THE FRONT -- TO THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE THAT YOU WOULD WALK UP TO FROM THE SIDEWALK --

A: YES.

Q: -- IN WHAT CONDITION DID YOU FIND IT? WHAT POSITION?

A: IT WAS WIDE OPEN.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MS. CLARK: CUT THE FEED FOR THIS, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: YES.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: THIS IS PEOPLE'S 45-B, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: AND WERE YOU INTERESTED IN HAVING THIS PARTICULAR AREA PHOTOGRAPHED?

A: YES.

Q: WHY?

A: IT SHOWS A TOP VIEW LOOKING DOWN ON THE BACK OF VICTIM NICOLE BROWN AS WELL AS THE -- A GREAT DEAL OF WHAT APPEARS TO BE BLOOD ON THE FIRST STEP OF THE STAIRWELL.

Q: WAS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHY?

A: THAT WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT THERE WAS A GOOD POSSIBILITY THAT IS WHERE SHE WAS -- SHE WAS INJURED INITIALLY.

Q: AND THEN YOU HAVE -- IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH THAT WAS SIGNIFICANT TO YOU?

A: THERE IS AN ENVELOPE, THE ENVELOPE WE DISCUSSED EARLIER, IN THE UPPER RIGHT-HAND CORNER.

Q: AND ON THE STAIRS?

A: THERE IS WHAT APPEARS TO BE -- YOU KNOW, THE HEAVY BLOOD STAIN THAT I DESCRIBED.

Q: AND ABOVE THAT?

A: WHAT ARE POSSIBLY SOME TYPE OF DRAG MARKS OR TRANSFERS ON THE SECOND STAIR.

Q: OKAY. DO YOU SEE ANY BLOODY SHOEPRINTS IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?

A: I BELIEVE THERE ARE DOWN ON THE WALKWAY. THIS PHOTOGRAPH ISN'T THAT CLEAR. I BELIEVE THERE IS ALSO ONE ON THE STEP.

Q: THERE IS ALSO ONE -- DID YOU SEE ON THE STEP WHEN YOU WERE THERE THAT DAY?

A: YES.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MS. CLARK: IF YOU CAN --

Q: CAN YOU SEE THE SCREEN FROM WHERE YOU ARE SITTING, SIR? CAN YOU LOOK UP? IS THAT VISIBLE TO YOU? CAN YOU SEE THE RED DOT, THE AREA I'M CIRCLING?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE TO YOU?

A: IT APPEARS TO BE A BLOODY SHOEPRINT TRANSFER OF SOME TYPE.

Q: AND OVER HERE AT THE LOWER LEFT-HAND CORNER?

A: THE SAME.

Q: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECALL SEEING THOSE -- THOSE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS IN THOSE -- IN THOSE LOCATIONS WHEN YOU WERE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?

A: YES.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: THIS IS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 45-C, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND DO YOU SEE ANYTHING SIGNIFICANT IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS, SIR?

A: YES. THAT ALSO APPEARS TO BE BLOODY SHOEPRINT IMPRESSIONS.

Q: AND IF YOU WOULD, CAN YOU LOOK AT THE SCREEN, SIR, AND TELL ME WHERE YOU SEE THEM.

A: WHERE YOU HAD THE RED DOT AND THEN IN THE LOWER RIGHT-HAND PORTION OF THE PHOTOGRAPH, AS WELL AS THE LOWER LEFT -- OR LEFT LOWER LEFT PORTION, YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND THOSE SHOEPRINTS, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU CAN TRACE THE THEIR DIRECTION AND PATH?

A: TO APPEAR THEY APPEARED TO BE GOING IN A WESTERLY DIRECTION DOWN THE WALKWAY.

Q: NOW, IN THE AREA OF THE FRONT DOOR, DID YOU SEE ANY BLOODY SHOEPRINTS IN THAT AREA?

A: YES.

Q: OKAY. WERE THEY ANGLED IN TOWARD THE FRONT DOOR?

A: NO. AT THE FRONT DOOR THEY -- THEY APPEARED TO BE GOING DIRECTLY WESTERLY.

Q: PAST THE FRONT DOOR?

A: CORRECT.

Q: AT SOME POINT DID THEY ANGLE IN TOWARDS THE CONDOMINIUM?

A: JUST PRIOR OR EAST OF THE FRONT DOOR ON THE WALKWAY THEY DID APPEAR TO DO SOME TYPE OF A TURN AROUND.

Q: AND THAT WAS EAST OF THE FRONT DOOR?

A: YES.

Q: OKAY. AND AFTER -- AFTER THEY CONTINUED PAST THE FRONT DOOR, AT SOME POINT DID THEY FADE OUT?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHEN WAS THAT?

A: THEY CONTINUED TO A STAIRWELL THROUGH A SMALL GATE AND DOWN THE STAIRWELL TO A POINT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE STAIRWELL.

Q: AFTER WHICH DID YOU SEE ANY MORE OF THEM?

A: NO.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, TO THE LEFT OF -- I THINK YOU INDICATED EARLIER IN YOUR TESTIMONY THAT YOU SAW BLOOD DROPS TO THE LEFT OF THOSE SHOEPRINTS?

A: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: THIS HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED WITH THIS WITNESS.

MS. CLARK: I HAVEN'T EVEN ASKED THE QUESTION.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

MR. COCHRAN: I HAVE HEARD THIS QUESTION JUST NOW.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE APPEARANCE OF THOSE BLOOD DROPS, SIR?

A: YES. THE BLOOD DROPS APPEARED TO TAIL WESTERLY IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, PEOPLE'S 45-A.

MS. CLARK: OKAY.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS 43-A.

THE COURT: 43-A.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT, SIR. CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US, FIRST OF ALL, WHAT IS SHOWN IN THE PHOTOGRAPH AND HOW THE ITEMS DEPICTED IN THE PHOTOGRAPH APPEARED TO YOU WHEN YOU WERE AT THE SCENE?

A: EXCUSE ME. THIS IS AN OVERALL PHOTOGRAPH LOOKING WESTERLY ON THE WALKWAY WITH TWO OF THE, WHAT APPEAR TO BE BLOOD SPOTS, INDICATED BY THE TWO CARDS, ONE IN THE LOWER LEFT AND ONE ON THE CENTER OF THE -- THE PHOTOGRAPH.

Q: AND THOSE CARDS ARE DEPICTING WHAT?

A: THE LOCATION OF THE BLOOD SPOTS.

Q: ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANY BLOODY SHOEPRINTS IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?

A: IT APPEARS IN THE LOWER CENTER THERE MAY BE ONE IN THIS PARTICULAR PHOTOGRAPH.

Q: IF YOU COULD LOOK AT THE SCREEN FOR A MOMENT, SIR, AND TELL US IF I HAVE LOCATED THAT WITH THE RED DOT CIRCLING THE AREA?

A: YES. IT IS THE ONE I JUST DESCRIBED.

Q: DOES IT APPEAR TO YOU THAT THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH BETWEEN THE BLOODY SHOEPRINT AND THE BLOOD DROP NOTED AS PHOTO I.D. NO. 112?

MR. COCHRAN: THE PICTURES SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

THE COURT: KIND OF A VAGUE QUESTION.

MS. CLARK: IT IS. I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR. LET ME ASK ANOTHER ONE.

Q: DOES THIS PHOTOGRAPH DEPICT THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE SHOEPRINT AND THE BLOOD DROP IDENTIFIED AS PHOTO I.D. 112 IN THE SAME MANNER YOU RECALL SEEING IT WHEN YOU WERE AT THE SCENE ON JUNE 13?

A: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS ALSO VAGUE.

THE COURT: OVERRULED. DO WE KNOW THE MEASUREMENT OF THE TILES?

MS. CLARK: I WAS JUST GOING TO GET TO THAT. YOU READ MY MIND.

MR. COCHRAN: WHAT WAS THAT LAST ANSWER, YOUR HONOR? WAS THAT YES?

MS. CLARK: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: YES? THANK YOU.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU MEASURE THE SIZE OF THESE TILES, DETECTIVE?

A: YES.

Q: AND HOW LARGE ARE THEY?

A: THEY WERE 11 AND ONE-HALF BY 11 AND ONE-HALF INCHES SQUARE.

Q: OKAY. WAS THERE ANYTHING -- ANYTHING THAT YOU MADE PARTICULAR NOTE OF ABOUT THE BLOOD DROPS?

A: YES. I NOTED THAT THEY APPEARED TO TAIL OR TENTACLE IN A WESTERLY DIRECTION IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS.

Q: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "TAIL"?

A: BY TAILING, IF YOU WOULD VIEW A BLOOD DROPLET UP CLOSELY, THE TENTACLES -- PERHAPS IF IT TENTACLES IN A CERTAIN DIRECTION, TENTACLES OUT, IT WOULD INDICATE THAT WHEN THE --

MR. COCHRAN: I THINK WITHOUT A PROPER FOUNDATION I'M NOT SURE HE CAN TELL US ABOUT TENTACLE OF BLOOD DROPS.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: HAVE YOU RECEIVED ANY TRAINING IN BLOOD SPATTER ANALYSIS, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: CAN YOU TELL WAS THAT IS?

A: BLOOD SPATTER ANALYSIS?

Q: YES.

A: IT IS A STUDY OF BLOOD SPATTERS, BASICALLY HOW BLOOD APPEARS WHEN IT STRIKES DIFFERENT SURFACES FROM DIFFERENT DISTANCES OR AT DIFFERENT SPEEDS.

Q: AND WHERE DID YOU RECEIVE THAT TRAINING?

A: I RECEIVED TRAINING IN THE POLICE ACADEMY AND COLLEGE AND INVESTIGATOR'S SCHOOL, HOMICIDE SCHOOL. I RECEIVED INFORMAL TRAINING FROM OTHER EXPERTS IN THE FIELD. I HAVE REVIEWED TEXTS ON THE SUBJECT AND HAVE VIEWED BLOOD SPATTERS AT MANY CRIME SCENES OVER THE YEARS.

Q: AND HAVE YOU EVER TESTIFIED CONCERNING YOUR OBSERVATIONS OF BLOOD SPATTERS IN THE CASES THAT YOU HAVE HANDLED?

A: YES.

Q: ON HOW MANY OCCASIONS?

A: GOSH, I WOULD HAVE NO IDEA; MAYBE A HUNDRED.

Q: AND WITH RESPECT TO THESE PARTICULAR BLOOD DROPS THEN, SIR, YOU MADE AN OBSERVATION CONCERNING THEIR ANGLE? YOU SAID TAILING?

A: TAILING. A BLOOD DROPLET WILL TAIL OR IT WILL APPEAR THAT THERE ARE TENTACLES COMING OUT FROM IT, DEPENDING ON THE ANGLE THAT IT STRIKES THE TARGET. IF, AS AN EXAMPLE, WE HAD A BLOOD SPOT THAT TENTACLED OR TAILED OUT, AS IN THIS CASE, IN WHAT I BELIEVE IS A WESTERLY DIRECTION, IT WOULD INDICATE THAT THE SOURCE WAS GOING IN A WESTERLY DIRECTION AT THE TIME THAT BLOOD DROPLET STRUCK THE TARGET.

Q: OKAY. AND THE SHOEPRINTS APPEARED TO BE GOING IN WHAT DIRECTION?

A: A WESTERLY DIRECTION.

Q: HOW MANY BLOOD DROPS WERE THERE BETWEEN THE BODIES OF THE VICTIMS -- BLOOD DROPS GOING IN THAT WESTERLY DIRECTION DID YOU FIND BETWEEN THE BODIES OF THE VICTIMS AND THE REAR ALLEY?

A: THERE WERE FIVE, THE LAST ONE BEING IN THE CARPORT AREA.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHEN YOU GOT TO THE REAR GATE, SIR, DID YOU OBSERVE ANY -- ANY OTHER BLOOD AT THE REAR GATE AREA?

A: YES. I OBSERVED A -- WHAT APPEARED TO BE A TRANSFER OR A SMEAR IN THE MIDDLE TOP RUNG.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 53-A.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT ELSE DID YOU SEE, SIR?

A: AND WHAT APPEARED TO BE TWO DROPLETS ON THE INNER LOWER RUNG.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 53-B.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO THOSE APPEAR TO BE THE BLOOD DROPLETS THAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING, SIR?

A: YES.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 53-C, PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 53-D, PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 53-E.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. DO YOU RECALL SEEING THE -- SEEING ANY BLOOD IN THE AREA THAT YOU SEE THE PHOTO -- THE I.D. MARKER ON THIS ITEM IN THE REAR GATE AREA?

A: NOT ON THAT PARTICULAR DATE.

Q: LET ME ASK YOU THIS, SIR: DID YOU AT SOME POINT HAVE CONTACT WITH A CRIMINALIST BY THE NAME OF DENNIS FUNG?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHEN YOU DID, DID YOU ASK HIM -- DID YOU BRIEF HIM ON WHAT WAS AT THE CRIME SCENE?

A: YES.

Q: DID YOU MAKE CERTAIN REQUESTS OF HIM IN TERMS OF WHAT TO COLLECT?

A: YES.

Q: DID YOU POINT OUT THE REAR GATE AREA TO HIM?

A: YES.

Q: AND ASK HIM TO COLLECT BLOOD FROM THAT AREA?

A: YES.

Q: AT SOME POINT AFTER JUNE THE 13TH DID YOU RETURN TO THE BUNDY AREA FOR A WALK-THROUGH?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHEN YOU DID SO, DID YOU MAKE SOME OBSERVATIONS CONCERNING THE REAR GATE AREA THAT YOU HAVE JUST SEEN -- THE AREA THAT YOU HAVE JUST SEEN IN THESE PAST SEVERAL PHOTOGRAPHS?

A: YES, I DID.

Q: WHAT OBSERVATION OF THAT --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT WITHOUT A FURTHER FOUNDATION. WHEN DID HE COME BACK? WAS IT THREE WEEKS LATER? WHEN WAS IT?

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: YES. TELL US WHAT DATE WAS IT THAT YOU RETURNED?

A: JULY 3RD, 1994.

Q: AND WHAT OBSERVATION DID YOU MAKE?

A: I OBSERVED THE SAME THING THAT I OBSERVED BACK ON JUNE 13.

Q: WHICH WAS?

A: THE BLOOD SMEAR TRANSFER ON THE UPPER RUNG, THE BLOOD ON THE LOWER RUNG AND THIS PARTICULAR ITEM ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE GATE.

Q: ITEM 117?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU SAW THAT?

A: I INQUIRED OF THE CRIMINALIST --

MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT. I OBJECT AS TO -- AS TO WHAT HE DID. DID HE TELL US -- I WILL WAIT UNTIL HE FINISHES THE ANSWER.

THE COURT: THANK YOU.

THE WITNESS: I INQUIRED OF THE CRIMINALIST IF HE HAD CHECKED THE GATE AS I HAD REQUESTED ON JUNE 13TH. HE STATED HE HAD NOT.

MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT. I OBJECT TO WHAT THE CRIMINALIST SAID. THAT IS HEARSAY.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED. THE ANSWER IS STRICKEN. THE JURY IS TO DISREGARD.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WHEN YOU ASKED THE CRIMINALIST WHETHER HE COLLECTED THE BLOOD ON THE REAR GATE AS YOU REQUESTED, HE MADE A RESPONSE TO YOU?

A: YES.

Q: AND BASED ON WHAT HE TOLD YOU, WHAT DID YOU DO?

MR. COCHRAN: WELL, OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS CALLING FOR HEARSAY.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: I HAD HIM AT THAT TIME TAKE SAMPLES FROM THE GATE, CHECK THE ENTIRE GATE.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND THE GATE WAS THEN PHOTOGRAPHED?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, WERE THERE ANY PRINT PEOPLE AT THE SCENE ON JUNE 13, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: WHEN DID THEY FIRST BEGIN TO ARRIVE, IF YOU KNOW?

A: I BELIEVE THE FIRST ONE ARRIVED PRIOR TO 4:00 A.M.

Q: BEFORE YOU GOT THERE?

A: YES.

Q: AND DID YOU DIRECT -- WHEN YOU GOT THERE AT APPROXIMATELY 4:30 A.M., DID YOU HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WITH THAT PRINT SPECIALIST?

A: NOT AT THAT TIME, I DON'T BELIEVE SO.

Q: AFTER YOU RETURNED TO BUNDY AT 6:45 A.M., DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH ANY OF THE PRINT SPECIALISTS?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DIRECT THEM TO DO?

A: I DIRECTED THE PRINT PEOPLE TO PRINT THE ENTIRE OUTSIDE AREA, FENCE AREA, AROUND THE CRIME SCENE, THE RAILING ALONG THE WALKWAY, THE REAR GATE AREA, THE VEHICLES IN THE BACK, ONE IN THE GARAGE, ONE IN THE DRIVEWAY. I DIRECTED THEM TO PRINT THE FRONT DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE INSIDE AND OUT AND I DIRECTED THEM TO PRINT THE INSIDE OF THE RESIDENCE, THE MOLDINGS AROUND DOORS, ALL OF THE TELEPHONES, TELEVISION SET UPSTAIRS, ITEMS IN THE BATHROOM, THE BEDROOM. EVENTUALLY I REQUESTED THAT THEY PRINT THE KITCHEN KNIFE THAT WAS ON THE KITCHEN COUNTER, THE FIRST LEVEL ROOM -- BATHROOM NEAR THE KITCHEN, THE RAILING, THE HAND RAILING GOING FROM THE FIRST TO THE SECOND LEVEL. THAT IS BASICALLY IT.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, MAY THIS BE MARKED PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER, PEOPLE'S 84?

THE COURT: MISS ROBERTSON, 84?

THE CLERK: YES.

THE COURT: 84.

(PEO'S 84 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT, SIR. DO YOU SEE WHAT IS DEPICTED IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH -- WHO IS DEPICTED IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?

A: THOSE ARE TWO OF LAPD'S PRINT TECHNICIANS. THIS PHOTOGRAPH IS LOOKING DOWN THE STAIRWELL IN A WESTERLY DIRECTION ALONG THE WALKWAY.

Q: OKAY. SHE IS POINTING TO THE HANDRAIL?

A: YES.

Q: IS THAT ONE OF THE ITEMS THAT YOU ASKED BE PHOTOGRAPHED -- EXCUSE ME -- DUSTED FOR PRINTS?

A: YES.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NO. 75.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, YOU INDICATED ALSO THAT YOU SAW A KNIFE ON THE COUNTER AND YOU SAW THAT WHEN YOU FIRST WALKED INTO THE HOUSE AT YOUR FIRST VISIT TO BUNDY AT ABOUT 4:30 A.M., RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: AND IS THAT THE POSITION IN WHICH YOU FOUND IT, SIR?

A: YES.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NO. 76.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU DIRECT THAT SOMETHING BE DONE WITH THIS KNIFE, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: FIRST OF ALL, IS THAT THE LOCATION AND CONDITION IN WHICH YOU FOUND IT?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT DID YOU DIRECT BE DONE WITH IT?

A: I DIRECTED THAT THE CRIMINALIST VISUALLY INSPECT IT FOR ANY POSSIBLE BLOOD STAINS. SUBSEQUENT TO THAT, THAT THE PRINT PEOPLE PRINT IT.

Q: OKAY. WELL, ARE YOU -- ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO LET PRINT PEOPLE PRINT AN ITEM IF THERE IS BLOOD ON IT?

A: NO. IT IS PREFERABLE THAT THE BLOOD BE DEALT WITH WITH SOME TYPE OF TESTING METHOD FIRST.

Q: AND WAS THAT DONE?

A: A VISUAL INSPECTION WAS MADE. THERE WERE NO TESTS DONE ON THE KNIFE.

Q: AND WAS IT THEN PRINTED AS WELL?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT ELSE WAS PRINTED INSIDE THE HOUSE, OTHER THAN THE MOLDING AREAS AND THE -- AROUND THE DOOR FRAME THAT YOU HAVE INDICATED?

A: WHAT ELSE WAS PRINTED?

Q: YES, WHAT ELSE INSIDE?

A: I BELIEVE I STATED THE TELEPHONES, THE TELEVISION UPSTAIRS, THERE WAS A PACK OF I BELIEVE MARLBORO CIGARETTES IN THE UPSTAIRS BATHROOM THAT WAS PRINTED, I BELIEVE THE NIGHTSTAND IN THE BEDROOM, AND THEY HAD GENERAL INSTRUCTIONS TO PRINT ANYTHING THAT THEY FELT -- THEY WOULD HAVE LATITUDE TO PRINT ANYTHING THAT APPEARED TO ME -- MIGHT CONTAIN PRINTS.

MS. CLARK: OKAY.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BRIEF RECESS FOR THE COURT REPORTER AT THIS TIME SO WE CAN SWITCH COURT REPORTERS. PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITION TO YOU. DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONGST YOURSELVES, DON'T FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, DON'T LET ANYBODY CONTACT YOU REGARDING THE CASE. ALSO, DON'T CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU. ASK THAT YOU STEP BACK INTO THE JURY ROOM AND WE WILL SEE YOU BACK HERE IN ABOUT FIFTEEN MINUTES. DETECTIVE LANGE, YOU CAN STEP DOWN.

(RECESS.)

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. ALL PARTIES ARE PRESENT. DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, BEFORE THEY COME BACK, I WAS GOING TO ASK THE COURT -- I MEANT TO TALK TO COUNSEL ABOUT THIS. I NEED TO MARK THE PHONE BILL THAT THE -- THAT THIS WITNESS IDENTIFIED AND -- THAT IDENTIFIED THE PHONE CALL HE MADE THERE. THIS PHONE BILL WAS ALSO USED WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS. I KNOW THAT COUNSEL HAS INDICATED THAT THAT PHONE NUMBER HAS CHANGED.

THE COURT: I THOUGHT WE HAD MARKED THAT PREVIOUSLY.

MS. CLARK: RIGHT. BUT THE ENTIRE PHONE RECORD ISN'T. I THOUGHT JUST THAT ONE CALL.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. ARE BOTH CALLS ON THE CHART? NO. ALL RIGHT. THEN THE ENTIRE PHONE RECORD -- WHAT WAS THE PHONE -- THE CHART, MRS. ROBERTSON?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THERE'S PROBABLY PHONE NUMBERS ON IT THAT I WOULD LIKE NOT TO HAVE TO BE EXPOSED.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WELL, WHAT WE'LL DO AT THIS POINT IS, WE'LL JUST USE THAT ONE PAGE.

THE CLERK: 65.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S MAKE THIS 65-A.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I WAS INDICATING TO COUNSEL THAT THERE MAY BE PHONE NUMBERS ON THERE THAT SHOULD BE BLOCKED OUT BEFORE THIS EXHIBIT IS GIVEN TO THE JURY AND --

THE COURT: WELL, I'M NOT SO WORRIED ABOUT GIVING IT TO THE JURY THAN RELEASING IT TO THE PUBLIC.

MR. COCHRAN: THE PUBLIC.

MS. CLARK: AND THAT'S EXACTLY -- AS WELL. SO BEFORE THAT HAPPENS, COUNSEL AND I NEED TO SIT DOWN AND FIGURE OUT --

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. BUT FOR IDENTIFICATION PURPOSES, THE FULL LIST -- FULL PHONE BILL WILL BE 65-A.

MS. CLARK: 67-A?

MR. DOUGLAS: 65 IS THE CELLULAR PHONE.

MS. CLARK: YES. 65 IS THE CELLULAR PHONE.

MR. DOUGLAS: 67-A.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. 67-A. ALL RIGHT.

(PEO'S 67-A FOR ID = ONE-PAGE PHONE BILL)

THE COURT: ANYTHING ELSE, MISS CLARK? MISS CLARK, ANYTHING ELSE? THAT'S IT?

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. PLEASE BE SEATED. ALL RIGHT. LET THE RECORD REFLECT WE HAVE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF OUR JURY. DETECTIVE TOM LANGE IS STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND UNDER OATH. GOOD AFTERNOON AGAIN, DETECTIVE. YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH.

THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CONTINUE WITH YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. SIR, AT SOME POINT, DID THE CORONER'S INVESTIGATOR ARRIVE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHO WAS THAT, SIR?

A: THE CORONER'S INVESTIGATOR'S NAME WAS CLAUDINE RATCLIFFE.

Q: WHAT TIME DID SHE GET THERE?

A: SHE ARRIVED AT APPROXIMATELY 9:10 A.M.

Q: NOW, PRIOR TO THAT, SIR, HAD YOU DIRECTED DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TO MAKE A SECOND CALL TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHEN DID YOU MAKE -- DIRECT HIM TO MAKE THAT CALL?

A: I BELIEVE IT WAS APPROXIMATELY 8:10 A.M.

Q: AFTER INVESTIGATOR RATCLIFFE ARRIVED, WHAT DID SHE DO?

A: SHE REQUESTED A BRIEF RUN-DOWN, SYNOPSIS OF WHAT I HAD AT THE SCENE.

Q: WHEN -- BY THE TIME SHE ARRIVED AT ABOUT -- WHAT DID YOU SAY 9:05, 9:10?

A: I BELIEVE IT WAS AROUND 9:10.

Q: BY THE TIME SHE ARRIVED, WAS THE FIRST OFFICER ON THE SCENE, OFFICER RISKE, STILL THERE?

A: I DON'T KNOW.

Q: WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY, SIR, IF YOU WERE TO SEE THE CRIME SCENE LOG?

A: YES. ACCORDING TO THE LOG --

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, JUST A MOMENT. THERE'S A PROPER WAY TO HANDLE IT.

THE COURT: CORRECT. WE'RE JUST REFRESHING RECOLLECTION HERE.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: HAVE YOU REFRESHED YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO WHEN OFFICER RISKE LEFT THE SCENE?

A: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT. IT'S STILL IMPROPER. THE QUESTION IS, DOES THAT RECORD REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION. NOT THAT IT AUTOMATICALLY DOES.

MS. CLARK: I ASKED --

THE COURT: IT'S A MATTER OF SEMANTICS. HE'S LOOK AT THE DOCUMENT, IT'S INDICATED IT REFRESHES HIS PERSONAL RECOLLECTION. PROCEED.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND IS YOUR MEMORY REFRESHED, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT TIME OFFICER RISKE LEFT THE SCENE?

A: YES. 7:15 A.M.

Q: AND -- SO HE WAS GONE BY THE TIME CLAUDINE RATCLIFFE GOT THERE?

A: YES.

Q: WHO IS ALLOWED TO TOUCH THE BODY OF THE VICTIMS AT A HOMICIDE SCENE, SIR?

A: THE CORONER'S INVESTIGATOR OR CORONER'S HELPER.

Q: ARE YOU ALLOWED TO TOUCH THE BODIES OF THE VICTIMS?

A: NO.

Q: SO WHEN CLAUDINE RATCLIFFE GOT THERE, WHERE DID YOU MEET WITH HER?

A: INITIALLY I MET WITH HER IN THE STREET, IN THE PARKWAY AREA IN FRONT OF THE LOCATION.

Q: DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HER?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT?

A: IT WAS A BRIEF CONVERSATION TO TELL HER BASICALLY WHAT I HAD AT THE SCENE.

Q: AND WHY DID YOU DO THAT?

A: TO GIVE HER AN IDEA WHAT WE HAD AND WHAT SHE WOULD NEED AND HOW TO PROCEED.

Q: WHO IS IT THAT IS REQUIRED -- DOES SHE NEED TO IDENTIFY WHO THE VICTIMS ARE WHEN SHE COMES OUT TO THE SCENE?

A: THAT'S PART OF HER DUTIES, YES.

Q: DO YOU ASSIST HER IN THAT?

A: IF WE CAN.

Q: AND DID YOU IN THIS CASE?

A: YES.

Q: AND HOW DID YOU DO THAT?

A: AS TO VICTIM NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, I ENTERED THE RESIDENCE WITH CLAUDINE RATCLIFFE AND WE PROCEEDED TO THE BEDROOM, THE MAIN BEDROOM, WHERE WE OBSERVED -- I OBSERVED THE -- A PURSE BELONGING TO NICOLE BROWN AND IN THE PURSE WAS IDENTIFICATION WITH HER PICTURE, DESCRIPTION AND NAME. AND THIS I SHARED WITH RATCLIFFE.

Q: WHAT, IF ANYTHING, WERE YOU ABLE TO DO TO ASSIST HER TO IDENTIFY THE OTHER BODY, THE BODY OF RON GOLDMAN?

A: WHEN MR. GOLDMAN'S BODY HAD BEEN REMOVED FROM THE POSITION THAT I FIRST OBSERVED IT, HIS POCKETS WERE CHECKED AND A CALIFORNIA DRIVER'S LICENSE WAS FOUND IN ONE OF HIS POCKETS.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, MAY THIS PHOTOGRAPH BE MARKED PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER, PEOPLE'S 85?

THE COURT: PEOPLE'S 85.

(PEO'S 85 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: SEE PEOPLE'S 85, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: AND DO YOU RECOGNIZE THEM?

A: YES.

Q: ARE THESE THE ITEMS YOU JUST DESCRIBED THAT WERE PULLED OUT OF THE POCKET OF RON GOLDMAN?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHO PULLED THEM OUT OF HIS POCKET?

A: CORONER'S INVESTIGATOR RATCLIFFE.

Q: AND THAT CARD THAT'S UNION BANK, DID YOU SEE THAT ITEM, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: WAS THAT A CREDIT CARD?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, WHAT -- WHERE DID YOU TAKE MISS RATCLIFFE AFTER -- WHEN YOU TOOK HER UP TO NICOLE BROWN'S BEDROOM, DID YOU GO IN THROUGH THE FRONT OR THROUGH THE REAR?

A: I BELIEVE PRIOR TO THAT, SHE OBSERVED --

MR. COCHRAN: THIS IS NONRESPONSIVE, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHERE DID -- AFTER YOU MET WITH CLAUDINE RATCLIFFE IN THE STREET, WHERE DID YOU GO WITH HER OR DID YOU GO ANYWHERE WITH HER?

A: PROCEEDED TO THE LOCATION OF THE BODIES.

Q: AND HOW DID YOU DO THAT?

A: ACROSS THE SIDEWALK TO THE SOUTH OF THE ENTRANCE, ACROSS A -- THE AREA JUST TO THE SOUTH OF THE WALKWAY AND WE ANGLED UP TOWARDS THE NORTHWEST TOWARDS THE STAIRS.

Q: DID YOU WALK WITH HER UP THAT FRONT WALKWAY WHERE THE BLOOD WAS?

A: NO.

Q: AND BY THAT FRONT WALKWAY, I MEAN THE ONE THAT INTERSECTS WITH THE SIDEWALK IN FRONT OF THE LOCATION.

A: YES. NO, WE DIDN'T WALK UP THAT WAY.

Q: HOW DID YOU WALK UP?

A: AGAIN, IT WAS THE KNOLL AREA, THE AREA JUST TO THE SOUTH OF THE WALKWAY.

Q: OKAY. THAT GRASSY AREA, ACTUALLY, IF YOU WERE LOOKING AT A PHOTOGRAPH OF IT, WOULD BE TO THE LEFT OF THE WALKWAY?

A: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: HE SAID THIS THREE TIMES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: THEN YOU WALKED -- DID YOU STEP OVER THE BODY OF NICOLE BROWN WITH HER, WITH CLAUDINE?

A: I DON'T RECALL IF I STEPPED DIRECTLY OVER HER.

Q: HOW DID YOU GET TO THE TOP STEP?

A: AT THAT TIME -- I DON'T RECALL. AT THAT TIME, WE MAY HAVE STEPPED OVER AT THAT LOCATION BECAUSE SHE GOT TO THE TOP STOOP.

Q: OKAY. DO YOU RECALL IF CLAUDINE RATCLIFFE GOT TO THE TOP STOOP BY WALKING UP THE -- UP THE FRONT WAY OR IN THROUGH THE GARAGE?

A: I BELIEVE IT WAS THE FRONT WAY.

Q: OKAY. WERE THERE AREAS ON THE LANDING AREA AROUND THE BODY OF NICOLE BROWN AND ON THE STEPS ABOVE HER THAT WERE FREE OF BLOOD?

A: YES.

Q: AND WERE YOU ABLE TO -- WERE THOSE AREAS LARGE ENOUGH FOR YOU TO STEP IN TO GAIN ACCESS TO THE TOP LANDING?

A: YES.

Q: DID YOU STEP IN THOSE AREAS?

A: YES.

Q: AND DID YOU DIRECT MISS RATCLIFFE TO DO THE SAME?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND AFTER YOU GOT TO THAT TOP LANDING AREA ABOVE THE BODIES AND THE EVIDENCE, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: I POINTED OUT TO INVESTIGATOR RATCLIFFE THE VARIOUS PIECES OF EVIDENCE THAT I HAD OBSERVED WHILE THERE.

Q: WHY DID YOU DO THAT?

A: IT WAS IMPORTANT TO ME THAT SHE KNOW WHERE THE EVIDENCE WAS SO THAT IT WOULDN'T BE TRAMPLED OR DISTURBED IN ANY OTHER WAY.

Q: OKAY. AND AFTER YOU DID THAT, THEN WHAT?

A: THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT BLOOD ON THE BODIES.

Q: WERE YOU POINTING SOMETHING OUT TO HER?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT WAS THAT?

A: I POINTED OUT SOME BLOOD THAT I WAS INTERESTED IN ON THE BACK OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.

Q: AND DID YOU EXPLAIN TO HER HOW THE BODY OF NICOLE BROWN WAS FOUND, WHAT WERE THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT LED TO THE DISCOVERY OF HER BODY?

MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE. HE CAN TELL US WHAT HE TOLD HER. I THINK IT'S LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, WHY WAS IT IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO TELL HER THAT?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: AS PART OF HER INVESTIGATION, SHE WOULD WANT TO KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER WHICH THE VICTIMS WERE DISCOVERED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND THEN I INDICATED -- YOU INDICATED I BELIEVE THAT AT SOME POINT, YOU AND SHE -- YOU AND MISS RATCLIFFE WENT INTO THE CONDOMINIUM?

A: YES.

Q: AND RETRIEVED THE IDENTIFICATION FROM -- OF NICOLE BROWN; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: AFTER THAT, WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: I BELIEVE AGAIN IT WAS AFTER THAT WE CAME DOWNSTAIRS TO THE LOCATION OF THE BODIES AND AGAIN, VISUALLY EXAMINED WHERE EVIDENCE WAS, IT WAS POINTED OUT TO RATCLIFFE AND SHE FIRST WENT TO VICTIM SIMPSON AND MADE A CLOSER EXAMINATION AND BEGAN TO REMOVE THE VICTIM FROM THE LOCATION.

Q: SO WAS MISS BROWN -- BROWN'S BODY REMOVED FIRST?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, PRIOR TO HER -- MISS RATCLIFFE REMOVING THE BODY OF MISS BROWN, DID YOU COME OUT -- WERE YOU OUTSIDE WITH HER? DID YOU BOTH EXIT THE CONDOMINIUM TOGETHER?

A: NO. I BELIEVE SHE REMAINED IN THE ROOM TO CHECK FOR FURTHER IDENTIFICATION AND I RETURNED DOWNSTAIRS TO COMPLETE WHAT I WAS DOING.

Q: WHICH WAS WHAT?

A: DOCUMENTING THE BODY POSITIONS, THE SCENE IN GENERAL, THE CONDITION THAT I FOUND THE SCENE TO BE IN AS WELL AS THE BODIES.

Q: AT SOME POINT, DID MISS RATCLIFFE COME BACK OUTSIDE?

A: YES.

Q: AND DURING THAT TIME WHEN YOU WERE DOING THE MEASUREMENTS AND MAKING THE OBSERVATIONS THAT YOU'VE INDICATED AT THE CRIME SCENE, YOU INDICATED BEFORE THAT YOU WERE WEARING GLOVES; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: WHEN MISS RATCLIFFE CAME BACK OUT, DID SHE THEN PROCEED IMMEDIATELY TO THE BODY OF MISS NICOLE BROWN?

A: SHE FIRST ASKED ME IF --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. THIS IS HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.

MS. CLARK: QUESTION?

THE COURT: IT'S NONRESPONSIVE ACTUALLY.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID MISS RATCLIFFE MAKE AN INQUIRY OF YOU?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT WAS THAT?

MR. COCHRAN: HEARSAY.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

MS. CLARK: MAY WE BE HEARD, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: SURE. WITH THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE OVER AT THE SIDEBAR.

MS. CLARK: THE QUESTION BY DEFINITION CAN'T BE HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR, BECAUSE THERE IS NO TRUTH OF THE MATTER ASSERTED IN A QUESTION. WHAT IS THE TRUTH BEING ASSERTED?

THE COURT: IT'S A STATEMENT MADE BY THE PERSON, BY MISS RATCLIFFE. SHE'S SAYING --

MS. CLARK: IT'S INQUIRY. THAT WAS THE RESPONSE. SHE MADE INQUIRY OF HIM.

THE COURT: WHAT'S THE INQUIRY? WHAT'S THE INQUIRY?

MS. CLARK: I DON'T KNOW. HE'S GOING TO TELL ME.

MR. COCHRAN: WAIT A MINUTE. THAT'S HEARSAY. COUNSEL I PRESUME KNOWS THIS. IT'S A LITTLE BIT LATE NOW TO BE HAVING THIS FISHING EXPEDITION WITH YOUR OWN WITNESS. IT'S HEARSAY.

MS. CLARK: PLEASE, FISHING EXPEDITION? I ASKED HIM A QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT SHE WOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE ABLE TO TAKE THE BODY OUT. WANT ME TO GO FIND OUT? I'LL FIND OUT. THE BOTTOM LINE LEGALLY SPEAKING, A QUESTION CANNOT BE HEARSAY BECAUSE A QUESTION DOES NOT ASSERT ANY TRUTH OF THE MATTER.

MR. COCHRAN: COUNSEL, THE JUDGE HAS RULED ON THAT. I DON'T HAVE TO ARGUE THAT. I THINK --

MS. CLARK: NO. HE HASN'T BEEN GIVEN A CHANCE. IF YOU STOP TALKING, HE MIGHT.

MR. COCHRAN: HE ALREADY RULED ON IT, COUNSEL.

THE COURT: NO. IT'S HEARSAY.

MR. COCHRAN: IT'S HEARSAY. LET'S MOVE ON.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID MISS RATCLIFFE MAKE AN INQUIRY OF YOU, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: DID SHE ASK YOU SOMETHING?

A: YES.

Q: AND IN RESPONSE, WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: I ALLOWED HER TO COME DOWN TO THE BODY ITSELF AND BEGIN HER EXAMINATION.

Q: AND WHAT DID SHE DO?

A: SHE BEGAN THE EXAMINATION BY PLACING THE VICTIM ON A PLASTIC SHEET.

Q: AND DID SHE DO THAT BY HERSELF OR DID SHE HAVE SOME HELP?

A: NO. SHE HAD AN ASSISTANT.

Q: A DRIVER?

A: YES.

Q: AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED?

A: WE CAUSED -- I CAUSED PHOTOGRAPHS TO BE TAKEN, CLOSE-UP PHOTOGRAPHS DURING HER EXAMINATION.

Q: AT THE SCENE THERE?

A: YES.

Q: AND THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS THAT YOU DIRECTED BE TAKEN, WHAT WERE THEY OF?

A: THEY WERE OF THE DECEASED.

Q: OF MISS BROWN?

A: YES.

Q: AND WERE THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN OF MISS BROWN DURING MISS RATCLIFFE'S EXAMINATION OF HER?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: BEFORE MISS RATCLIFFE WENT DOWN TO THE CRIME SCENE AND MOVED THE BODY OF NICOLE BROWN, HAD THE VICTIMS AND ALL OF THE EVIDENCE AROUND THEM BEEN PHOTOGRAPHED IN PLACE AS THEY WERE FOUND?

A: YES.

Q: AND AFTER THE PHOTOGRAPHS OF NICOLE BROWN WAS TAKEN DURING THE EXAMINATION BY MISS RATCLIFFE, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: THE VICTIM WAS REMOVED TO THE CORONER'S WAGON, AND SUBSEQUENT TO THAT, THERE WAS A LIVER TEMPERATURE TAKEN IN THE VAN I BELIEVE.

Q: MISS BROWN'S LIVER TEMPERATURE WAS TAKEN INSIDE THE VAN?

A: I BELIEVE IT WAS, YES.

Q: AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED?

A: RATCLIFFE AND THE DRIVER RETURNED AND BEGAN EXAMINATION OF MR. GOLDMAN.

Q: AND HOW WAS THAT ACCOMPLISHED, SIR?

A: INITIALLY, MR. GOLDMAN HAD TO BE LIFTED UP OUT OF HIS POSITION BECAUSE OF THE CONFINED AREA AND BROUGHT OUT ONTO THE WALKWAY, AND HE WAS PLACED ON A PLASTIC SHEET AND EXAMINED.

Q: AND WHERE WAS THAT DONE? WHERE WAS THAT PLASTIC SHEET PLACED?

A: ON THE WALKWAY IN FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE.

Q: THE WALKWAY THAT LEADS FROM THE SIDEWALK UP TO THE FRONT STEP?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHERE ON THE WALKWAY -- WHERE ON THAT WALKWAY? DOWN BY THE SIDEWALK? UP BY THE STAIRS?

A: IT WAS IN THE VICINITY OF THE FRONT GATE.

Q: AND WHAT OCCURRED NEXT?

A: RATCLIFFE EXAMINED MR. GOLDMAN ON THAT SHEET AND THERE WERE PHOTOGRAPHS TAKEN OF VARIOUS THINGS THAT SHE FOUND.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MS. CLARK: CUT THE FEED, YOUR HONOR.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 59.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. SO MISS RATCLIFFE AND THE DRIVER, THEY HAD TO LIFT HIM OUT OF THAT AREA?

A: YES.

Q: AND THEN THEY BROUGHT HIM -- I THINK -- DID YOU INDICATE SOUTH OF WHERE HE IS NOW IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH?

A: YES. SOUTH AND THEN TO THE EAST DOWN ON THE WALKWAY.

Q: SO THEY HAD -- SO WERE BOTH OF THEM BACK IN THAT AREA WHERE MR. GOLDMAN IS?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHEN THEY MOVED HIS BODY OUT OF THAT AREA, THEY MOVED RIGHT OVER THAT DIRT AND ONTO THE WALKWAY?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: IN THE AREA OF THAT ENVELOPE, THE HAT AND THE GLOVE?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT OCCURRED NEXT WITH MR. GOLDMAN? WAS THERE AN EXAMINATION PERFORMED?

A: YES. THERE WAS ALSO A LIVER TEMPERATURE TAKEN OF HIM.

Q: AND THEN WHAT?

A: MR. GOLDMAN WAS WRAPPED UP AND REMOVED FROM THE SCENE IN THE CORONER'S WAGON.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, AFTER THE BODY OF RON GOLDMAN WAS REMOVED, DID YOU OBSERVE -- MAKE ANY OBSERVATIONS OF SOMETHING THAT YOU HAD NOT MADE BEFORE?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT?

A: OBSERVED A WHITE METAL RING IN THE DIRT IN THE AREA BELOW MR. GOLDMAN, WHERE HE HAD BEEN.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 56-C.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU SEE WHAT'S IN PEOPLE'S 56-K?

A: YES. THAT APPEARS TO BE THE RING.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 81, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: IT'S 81?

MS. CLARK: UH-HUH.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ARE YOU ABLE TO LOCATE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR, WHERE THE RING WAS AFTER MR. GOLDMAN'S BODY WAS REMOVED?

A: YES. THE RING WOULD BE APPROXIMATELY THE CENTER OF THE PHOTOGRAPH WHERE THE LITTLE CARD IS INDICATED, THE CENTER CARD.

Q: CAN YOU DIRECT THE POINTER TO THAT AREA, SIR?

A: I BELIEVE WOULD BE DOWN THERE, THIS CARD RIGHT THERE (INDICATING).

Q: IS THAT --

MS. CLARK: CAN YOU PUT THE INITIALS ON THERE? AND MAY THIS BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 81-B?

THE COURT: 81-B.

(PEO'S 81-B FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. NOW, AFTER THE BODIES OF RON GOLDMAN AND NICOLE BROWN WERE REMOVED, DID YOU CONTINUE YOUR CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION?

A: YES.

Q: AT SOME POINT, DID CRIMINALIST DENNIS FUNG ARRIVE AT THE SCENE?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHEN WAS THAT?

A: I BELIEVE THAT WAS SHORTLY AFTER 10:00 A.M.

Q: WHEN HE ARRIVED, WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: I TOOK MR. FUNG ON A WALK-THROUGH OF THE CRIME SCENE.

Q: AND WHERE DID YOU TAKE HIM EXACTLY?

A: STARTED AT THE FRONT OF THE LOCATION AND I SHOWED HIM THE EVIDENCE THAT WAS THERE, POINTED OUT THE VARIOUS PIECES OF EVIDENCE, THE BLOOD. HE HAD ARRIVED JUST PRIOR TO THE DEPARTURE OR JUST PRIOR TO THE REMOVAL OF THE BODIES. CONSEQUENTLY, HE SAW WHERE THE BODIES WERE FROM THE TOP STEP AREA ABOVE THE VICTIMS. I SHOWED HIM WHAT APPEARED TO BE THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS LEADING UP THE STEPS WESTERLY, POINTED OUT TO HIM THE BLOOD -- WHAT APPEARED TO BE BLOOD DROPLETS. WE WALKED THROUGH THE REAR GATE, POINTED OUT THE BLOOD ON THE GATE. WE WALKED TO THE REAR OF THE LOCATION WHERE I POINTED OUT A FIFTH BLOOD DROPLET IN THE DRIVEWAY AND THERE WERE SOME COINS AND A COUPLE OF OTHER OBJECTS IN THE REAR. AT SOME POINT, WE ALSO ENTERED THE LOCATION WHERE I HAD SOME -- HAD HIM DO SOME TESTING.

Q: NOW, DID YOU POINT OUT THEN ALL THE EVIDENCE TO HIM THAT YOU PREVIOUSLY DESCRIBED TO US TODAY?

A: YES.

Q: AND FRIDAY?

A: YES.

Q: AND DID YOU DIRECT HIS ATTENTION TO THE KNIFE ON THE KITCHEN COUNTER?

A: YES.

Q: AND DID YOU ASK HIM TO DO SOMETHING WITH THAT KNIFE, SIR?

A: YES. I ASKED HIM TO DO A VISUAL EXAMINATION, AND IF HE OBSERVED ANYTHING THAT APPEARED TO BE BLOOD, TO DO A PHENOL OR PRESUMPTIVE TEST.

Q: DID YOU ASK HIM TO DO ANYTHING ELSE IN THE HOUSE WITH RESPECT TO THE DETECTION OF BLOOD?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT?

A: TO CHECK SOME REDDISH STAINS ON THE CARPET OF THE STAIRCASE GOING UP IN THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE AS WELL AS SOME REDDISH STAINISH -- RED STAINS ON THE THROW RUG IN THE BATHROOM UPSTAIRS.

Q: DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE RESULTS OF THAT EXAMINATIONS WERE -- OF THOSE EXAMINATIONS WERE?

MR. COCHRAN: HE CAN ONLY ANSWER IF HE KNOWS, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: CORRECT. DO YOU KNOW?

THE WITNESS: YES. THEY WERE NEGATIVE.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, AT SOME POINT, WHEN YOU WERE EXAMINING THE EXTERIOR CRIME SCENE, SIR, DO YOU RECALL GOING OUT -- AFTER THE BODIES OF THE VICTIMS WERE REMOVED, DO YOU RECALL GOING OUT TO THE DIRT AREA WHERE THE BODY OF RON GOLDMAN WAS FOUND?

A: YES.

Q: AND DID -- DO YOU RECALL OBSERVING THE PAGER AFTER THE BODY WAS REMOVED?

A: YES.

Q: DID YOU MAKE ANY EXAMINATION OF IT AT THAT TIME?

A: YES, I DID.

Q: AND WHAT HAPPENED WITH THAT?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I THOUGHT WE COVERED THE PAGER.

THE COURT: NO. WE JUST RECOVERED IT. THAT'S ALL WE'VE DONE SO FAR.

MS. CLARK: ACTUALLY NOT EVEN THAT. I THINK HE JUST OBSERVED IT SO FAR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

THE WITNESS: WHILE AT THAT LOCATION, THE PAGER ACTIVATED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: THE PAGER WENT OFF?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT NUMBER WAS SHOWN?

A: I HAVEN'T COMMITTED THE NUMBER TO MEMORY, BUT I DID WRITE IT DOWN AT THAT TIME.

Q: AND WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY IF YOU WERE TO LOOK AT SOME REPORT, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT REPORT WAS THAT?

A: WELL, MY CRIME SCENE NOTES.

Q: DO YOU HAVE THEM WITH YOU?

A: THEY'RE IN MY ATTACHE CASE.

THE COURT: I THINK THAT'S A CATALOG CASE.

MS. CLARK: FEELS LIKE THERE'S -- PRETTY HEAVY.

THE WITNESS: THIS IS EMBARRASSING. WRONG BOOK. I HAVE IT.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU HAVE THEM?

A: YES.

Q: OKAY. AND WHAT -- YOU ARE ABLE TO REFRESH YOUR REMEDY FROM THAT, SIR, AS TO THE NUMBER OF THE PAGER THAT WENT OFF?

A: YES.

THE COURT: DETECTIVE LANGE, WHY DON'T YOU PULL THE MICROPHONE BACK.

THE WITNESS: YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT NUMBER WAS THAT, SIR?

A: 447-8667.

Q: AND DID YOU DETERMINE WHO THAT NUMBER BELONGED TO?

A: YES.

Q: WHO?

A: THE MEZZALUNA RESTAURANT.

Q: WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN THE PAGER WENT OFF?

A: 10:47 A.M.

Q: DID YOU DETERMINE WHO IT WAS THAT PAGED RON GOLDMAN AT 10:47 A.M. FROM THE MEZZALUNA?

A: YES.

Q: WHO WAS THAT?

A: IT WAS AN EMPLOYEE AT THE LOCATION. I BELIEVE HIS NAME WAS TANNER.

Q: STUART TANNER?

A: STUART TANNER.

Q: WERE THERE ANY OTHER NUMBERS ON THAT PAGER?

A: NO.

Q: AT WHAT POINT, SIR, DID THE CORONER LEAVE THE SCENE?

A: I BELIEVE IT WAS SOMETIME AFTER 11:00 A.M.

Q: DID YOU MAKE A DETERMINATION, SIR, AS TO HOW THE FRONT GATE OF THAT -- OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY OPERATED?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT? WHAT'S THE SYSTEM THERE?

A: THE GATE COULD NOT BE OPENED FROM THE OUTSIDE WITHOUT A KEY. THE INSIDE KNOB WAS SMOOTH WITH A HANDLE GUARD DISALLOWING ANYONE FROM REACHING THROUGH AND OPENING IT. THERE WAS AN OUTSIDE LATCH ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE GATE THAT HAD TO BE FLIPPED UP IN ORDER FOR THE GATE TO OPEN ALL THE WAY.

Q: DID YOU DETERMINE WHETHER THERE WAS SOME MEANS OF COMMUNICATION BETWEEN SOME PERSON AT THE FRONT GATE AND SOMEONE INSIDE THE HOUSE?

A: YES. THERE WAS AN INTERCOM BOX WITH A BUTTON.

Q: DID YOU ATTEMPT TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THAT WORKED?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT?

A: THAT IT WAS OPERABLE.

Q: THE INTERCOM WORKED?

A: THE INTERCOM WORKED.

Q: WHAT ABOUT THE DOOR RELEASE?

A: I OBSERVED THE -- WHAT APPEARED TO BE THE DOOR RELEASE IN THE KITCHEN AND I COULD NOT GET IT TO WORK. IT WAS INOPERABLE AT THAT TIME.

MR. COCHRAN: NO FOUNDATION, YOUR HONOR. COULD WE HAVE FOUNDATION WHEN THAT WAS?

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WAS THIS ON JUNE THE 13TH, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: SO WHEN YOU PRESSED THE DOOR RELEASE BUTTON IN THE KITCHEN, IT DID NOT IN FACT UNLOCK THE FRONT GATE?

A: I HEARD IT CLICK, BUT IT WOULD NOT RELEASE. SO APPEARED TO BE INOPERABLE TO ME.

Q: BUT DID YOU CHECK TO DETERMINE WHETHER YOU COULD MANUALLY OPEN THE FRONT GATE IF IT WAS CLOSED?

A: FROM THE OUTSIDE?

Q: RIGHT.

A: NOT IF IT WERE LOCKED.

Q: OKAY. COULD YOU OPEN IT FROM THE INSIDE?

A: YES. IF ONE WERE TO, IN ADDITION TO TURNING THE KNOB, REACH OVER TO THE FRONT AND RELEASE THE LATCH THAT WAS ON THE OUTSIDE.

Q: NOW, WHEN ON THE 13TH DID YOU PERFORM THAT EXPERIMENT ON THE DOOR, THE INTERCOM AND THE DOOR RELEASE?

A: IT WAS SOMETIME AFTER THE CORONER LEFT.

Q: DID YOU ATTEMPT TO EXAMINE THE LIGHTING IN THE AREA, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT?

A: THERE WAS A STREET LAMP IN THE PARKWAY TO THE NORTHEAST OF THE WALKWAY OF THE LOCATION WITH AN OVERHANGING LAMP. THERE WAS AN ADDITIONAL STREET LAMP AND OVERHANGING LAMP I BELIEVE ON THE -- I BELIEVE IT WAS THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF BUNDY AND DOROTHY.

Q: OKAY. LET ME ASK YOU FIRST OF ALL, WITH RESPECT TO THE OVERHANGING STREET LAMP THAT YOU SAID WAS NORTHEAST OF THE WALKWAY ON THE SIDEWALK, SIR, HOW MUCH ILLUMINATION WAS PROVIDED OF THE WALKWAY, THAT FRONT WALKWAY AREA FROM THAT STREET LAMP?

A: I WOULD SAY NONE.

Q: AND WHY IS THAT?

A: BECAUSE OF THE HEAVY FOLIAGE AND THE TREES AND THE HEDGE TO THE NORTH OF THE WALKWAY.

Q: AND WHAT ABOUT THE OVERHANGING STREET LAMP THAT WAS AT THE NORTHEAST CORNER OF DOROTHY AND BUNDY? HOW MUCH ILLUMINATION WAS PROVIDED OF THE FRONT WALKWAY AREA, ESPECIALLY AT THE FOOT OF THE FRONT STEPS?

A: I WOULD SAY VERY LITTLE IF ANY.

Q: WHAT KIND OF LIGHTING DID YOU FIND AT THE EXTERIOR OF THE RESIDENCE ITSELF?

A: THERE WAS A SMALL LIGHT THAT WAS IN THE DIRT AREA JUST OFF THE WALKWAY JUST TO THE SOUTH OF THE STATIONARY GATE, A LOW ILLUMINATION OR LESS THAT WAS -- THAT SHOT STRAIGHT UP. IT WASN'T CONCENTRATED DOWN WITH THE LIGHT GOING UP.

Q: SET INTO THE GROUND, WAS IT?

A: YES.

Q: WERE THERE ANY PLANTS AROUND IT?

A: YES.

Q: HOW MUCH LIGHT DID IT AFFORD IN TERMS OF THE AREA WHERE NICOLE BROWN HAD BEEN LAYING?

A: BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT WAS POSITIONED, THE YELLOW LIGHTING WAS UP TOWARDS THE MAILBOX AND THERE WAS NONE GOING THE OTHER WAY. IT WAS SHIELDED IN AN UPWARDS DIRECTION.

Q: UH-HUH. SO DID IT ILLUMINATE THE BODY OF NICOLE BROWN IN THE POSITION IN WHICH SHE WAS FOUND?

A: NO.

Q: ANY OTHER EXTERIOR LIGHTING, SIR?

A: THERE WAS A LIGHT -- THE EXTERIOR, WOULD BE THE SOUTHEAST PORTION OF THE RESIDENCE WHERE THE 875 CONDO JOINED THE CONDO TO THE SOUTH. SO IT WOULD BE -- FROM THE LOCATION OF THE BODIES, IT WOULD BE UP THE WALK AND TOWARDS THE SOUTHWEST.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT?

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE DEFENDANT.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: SIR, DID YOU INDICATE WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A LIGHT ON THE PORCH OF THE RESIDENCE OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY?

A: THERE WAS IN THE CEILING ABOVE THE DOOR.

Q: IN THE CEILING ABOVE THE DOOR?

A: YEAH.

Q: AND HOW MUCH LIGHT DID THAT PROVIDE OF THE AREA WHERE NICOLE BROWN WAS FOUND?

A: I'D SAY INDIRECTLY VERY LITTLE.

Q: AND WHY IS THAT?

A: THE BODIES WERE DOWN BELOW THE STAIRWELL AND THE -- DUE TO DISTANCE AND THE PLACEMENT OF THE LIGHT, IT'S JUST -- THE LIGHTING WAS INDIRECT AND IT JUST DIDN'T DO MUCH TO ILLUMINATE THE BODIES.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: YOUR HONOR, MAY THIS NEXT PHOTOGRAPH BE MARKED PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NUMBER 86?

THE COURT: 86.

(PEO'S 86 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S DEPICTED IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: TO THE LEFT SIDE OF THE PHOTOGRAPH, YOU SEE AN AREA THAT HAS A GATE, AN ARCHED GATE?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT IS THAT -- WHOSE RESIDENCE IS THAT?

A: THAT'S THE TAYLOR RESIDENCE ADJOINING THE 875 SOUTH BUNDY LOCATION, JUST ADJOINED TO AND SOUTH OF.

Q: IS THAT THE OTHER HALF OF THE DUPLEX?

A: YES.

Q: AND TO THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE, IS THAT 875 SOUTH BUNDY, NICOLE BROWN'S RESIDENCE?

A: YES.

Q: THERE IS A LIGHT THAT SEEMS TO BE SHINING IN BETWEEN TWO OF THOSE TREES?

A: YES.

Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THE SOURCE OF THAT IS?

A: ACTUALLY I BELIEVE THERE WOULD BE TWO LIGHTS, ONE TO THE CONDO TO THE LEFT AND ONE TO THE CONDO TO THE RIGHT.

Q: AND IS ONE OF THOSE LIGHTS YOU JUST DESCRIBED BETWEEN THE TWO CONDOMINIUMS?

A: YES.

Q: WAS THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE AS WELL LIT AS YOU SEE IT IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT 4:30 A.M.?

A: THAT'S MY RECOLLECTION, YES.

Q: UH-HUH. WHAT ABOUT THE AREA BETWEEN NICOLE BROWN AND RON GOLDMAN? WITH RESPECT TO LIGHTING, SIR, WITH ALL OF THE LIGHTING THAT YOU'VE DESCRIBED, THE AREA BETWEEN THE BODIES OF RON GOLDMAN AND NICOLE BROWN, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT WAS THE LIGHTING LIKE IN THAT AREA?

A: IT WAS REALLY NOTHING TO ILLUMINATE THAT AREA.

Q: THEN CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, HOW VISIBLE WERE THE HAT AND THE GLOVE UNDERNEATH THAT PLANT IN THAT DARK AREA?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION WITHOUT FURTHER FOUNDATION. I SUPPOSE --

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. YOUR HONOR -- CAN WE APPROACH?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THE FORM.

THE COURT: OVERRULED. I'LL SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION TO THE MANNER -- HOW VISIBLE WAS THE HAT. YOU MAY WANT TO ASK SOME MORE FOUNDATIONAL QUESTIONS.

MS. CLARK: OKAY.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, FIRST OF ALL, WHEN YOU FIRST ARRIVED AT THE SCENE AT 4:30 A.M. AND YOU WENT TO LOOK AT THE -- YOU OBSERVED FROM THE TOP LANDING; DID YOU NOT?

A: YES.

Q: THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW THAT CRIME SCENE?

A: YES.

Q: CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US WHAT THE LIGHTING WAS LIKE IN THE AREA BETWEEN THE BODIES OF RON GOLDMAN AND NICOLE BROWN?

A: I WOULD DESCRIBE IT AS VERY POOR.

Q: AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

A: THERE WAS NO DIRECT LIGHTING ON THAT PARTICULAR AREA.

Q: WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE WITH YOUR NAKED EYE, WITHOUT THE ASSISTANCE OF THE FLASHLIGHT, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE GLOVE AND THE CAP THAT WERE UNDER THE PLANT?

A: I BELIEVE I WAS ABLE TO DISCERN THAT THERE MIGHT BE AN OBJECT THERE, BUT NOT ENOUGH TO CLEARLY TELL WHAT IT WAS.

Q: AND AT THE TIME THAT YOU WERE LOOKING DOWN THERE, WERE YOU LOOKING SPECIFICALLY FOR THOSE ITEMS?

A: THEY WERE BEING POINTED OUT TO ME. YES.

Q: AND AS THEY WERE BEING POINTED OUT TO YOU, WAS THERE SOMEBODY TRAINING A FLASHLIGHT ON THE AREA AT THE TIME?

A: I HAD A FLASHLIGHT.

Q: AND WERE YOU TRAINING IT ON THE AREA AT THE TIME THAT THEY WERE BEING POINTED OUT TO YOU?

A: YES.

Q: AND EVEN SO, IT WAS HARD FOR YOU TO SEE THEM?

A: NOT ONCE I ILLUMINATED --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. THAT WAS LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.

MS. CLARK: HE ALREADY SO TESTIFIED. I'M JUST GOING BACK INTO THAT.

MR. COCHRAN: ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR HONOR.

MS. CLARK: HAVE HIM DESCRIBE IT FURTHER.

THE COURT: OVERRULED. PROCEED.

THE WITNESS: WITH THE AID OF THE FLASHLIGHT, I COULD TELL WHAT THEY WERE, YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. DURING THIS TIME THAT YOU'RE EXAMINING THE CRIME SCENE, TAKING MEASUREMENTS, DIRECTING THE PHOTOGRAPHER, THE CRIMINALIST, THE PRINT PEOPLE, WHAT -- ARE THERE OTHER OFFICERS AT THE SCENE, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT ARE THEY DOING?

A: I HAD OTHER DETECTIVES DO WHAT WE CALL A CANVASS OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

Q: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

A: ONE OF THE DUTIES OF THOSE OFFICERS WAS TO GO DOOR TO DOOR TO SEE IF THERE MIGHT BE ANY WITNESSES TO WHAT OCCURRED, TO OBSERVE ANY ILLEGALLY OR VEHICLES ON THE STREET THAT APPEARED TO BE PARKED ERRATICALLY. I ALSO HAD THESE OFFICERS DO A CANVASS OF THE REAR ALLEY, WHICH INCLUDED GOING THROUGH TRASH CANS AT THE BUNDY LOCATION AS WELL AS THE NEIGHBOR'S LOCATION AS WELL AS A DUMPSTER THAT WAS IN THE ALLEY.

Q: AND WHAT WERE THEY LOOKING FOR? WHAT DID YOU TELL THEM TO LOOK FOR?

A: IN THE ALLEYWAY?

Q: YES. AND THE GARBAGE CANS?

A: ANYTHING THAT WOULD APPEAR TO CONTAIN WHAT MIGHT BE BLOOD, A WEAPON, CLOTHING, ANY WHAT MIGHT APPEAR TO BE BLOODSTAINS OR BLOOD SMEARS OR TRANSFERS ON ANY ITEM AT ALL.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, AT SOME POINT, SIR, DID YOU LEAVE THAT SCENE?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHERE DID YOU GO?

A: AS FAR AS LEAVING THE SCENE ITSELF?

Q: YES.

A: YES. I WENT TO PARKER CENTER.

Q: WAS THAT IN RESPONSE TO A PHONE CALL THAT YOU GOT?

A: YES.

Q: FROM WHO?

A: MY PARTNER, DETECTIVE VANNATTER.

Q: AND ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS THAT?

A: APPROXIMATELY 12:15 P.M.

Q: WHEN YOU LEFT, SIR, WHAT DID YOU DO TO MAKE SURE THAT THE SCENE WAS GOING TO BE TAKEN CARE OF?

MR. COCHRAN: JUST A MOMENT. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE, THAT HE DID ANYTHING. I OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: I SPOKE TO MR. FUNG, THE CRIMINALIST, EXPLAINED TO HIM THAT I WAS LEAVING AND THAT THE OFFICERS AT THE SCENE WOULD MAINTAIN A PERIMETER SECURITY UNTIL HE WAS COMPLETED WITH HIS INVESTIGATION. I DID THE SAME WITH THE PRINT PEOPLE WHO WERE STILL AT THE LOCATION AND I SPOKE WITH THE OFFICERS UPON LEAVING, LOGGED OUT AND LEFT THE LOCATION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: THEN WERE ALL OF THE EXPERTS THAT HAD TO ARRIVE TO CONDUCT THE CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION ALREADY AT WORK IN PROGRESS BY THE TIME YOU LEFT THE SCENE?

A: YES.

Q: AND HAD YOU GIVEN THEM ALL INSTRUCTIONS AS TO WHAT YOU WANTED DONE?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, AT SOME POINT, SIR, DID YOU RETURN TO THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION LATER THAT DAY?

A: YES.

Q: WHEN WAS THAT?

A: I BELIEVE THAT WAS APPROXIMATELY 5:15 P.M.

Q: AND WHEN YOU DID SO, SIR, DID YOU ENTER THE DEFENDANT'S RESIDENCE?

A: YES.

Q: WHY WAS THAT?

A: IT WAS PURSUANT TO A SEARCH WARRANT.

Q: DID YOU RECOVER SOMETHING FROM THE LOCATION YOURSELF?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT WAS THAT?

A: A PAIR OF REEBOK TENNIS SHOES OR ATHLETIC SHOES.

Q: AND WHERE WAS THAT -- WHERE DID YOU RECOVER THEM FROM?

A: IN THE WALK-IN CLOSET OFF OF THE MASTER BEDROOM ON THE SECOND LEVEL.

Q: AND DID YOU -- CAN YOU TELL US WHY YOU PICKED THOSE PARTICULAR SHOES TO TAKE FROM THE CLOSET?

A: YES.

Q: WHY?

A: I WAS IN THE COMPANY OF MR. SIMPSON AND I ASKED MR. SIMPSON IF HE RECALLED THE SHOES THAT HE WAS WEARING THE NIGHT BEFORE. HE POINTED TO THE REEBOKS AND STATED, "I MIGHT HAVE HAD THOSE ON," SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.

Q: AND --

A: SO AT THAT TIME, I TOLD MR. SIMPSON THAT I WISHED TO TAKE THOSE SHOES, AND HE STATED, "FINE. YOU CAN TAKE THOSE OR ANY OTHER SHOES."

Q: AND SO YOU TOOK THOSE?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THEM?

A: I PUT THEM IN A BOX AND PUT THE BOX INTO THE TRUNK OF MY POLICE VEHICLE.

Q: AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: I SECURED OR LEFT THAT LOCATION SHORTLY THEREAFTER.

Q: AND THEN WHAT?

A: I WENT END OF WATCH.

Q: WATCH --

A: END OF WATCH. I WAS COMPLETE, THROUGH FOR THE DAY.

Q: SO WHERE DID YOU GO?

A: I WENT HOME.

Q: WHAT ABOUT THE SHOES?

A: THE SHOES WERE IN THE TRUNK.

Q: OF YOUR CAR?

A: YES.

Q: SO YOU DIDN'T TAKE THEM INTO PROPERTY?

A: NO.

Q: WHY NOT?

A: THE PROPERTY UNIT THAT WAS HANDLING OUR EVIDENCE, THE EVIDENCE CONTROL UNIT WAS CLOSED. THE CRIMINALIST HAD BEEN COLLECTING ITEMS OF EVIDENCE ALL DAY. I WOULD HAVE NEEDED A DR, DIVISIONAL RECORDS, NUMBER TO BOOK THE ITEM. I WOULD HAVE NEEDED AN ITEM NUMBER, NONE OF WHICH HAD BEEN OBTAINED YET. IT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE TO BOOK THOSE SHOES THAT NIGHT.

Q: AND SO WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: I MAINTAINED THE SHOES IN THE TRUNK OF MY VEHICLE UNTIL THE NEXT MORNING WHEN I TOOK THEM TO THE SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION DIVISION, SEROLOGY LAB.

Q: AND WHAT TIME IN THE MORNING DID YOU TAKE THEM THERE?

A: I BELIEVE I ARRIVED AT APPROXIMATELY 7:30 A.M. I DON'T RECALL FOR SURE.

Q: DID YOU TAKE THEM DIRECTLY TO THE ECU, EVIDENCE CONTROL UNIT?

A: NO. I TOOK THEM TO THE SEROLOGY LAB.

Q: DIRECTLY TO THE SEROLOGY LAB?

A: YES.

Q: WHO DID YOU GIVE THEM TO?

A: TO GREG MATHESON.

Q: IS HE A SEROLOGIST THERE?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, IF YOU KNOW, SIR, CAN YOU TELL US, WHEN WAS THE CRIME SCENE AT BUNDY BROKEN DOWN?

A: I BELIEVE IT APPROXIMATELY 3:30 P.M., BUT I WOULD HAVE TO CHECK THE LOG TO BE SURE.

Q: WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY IF YOU DID SO?

A: YES.

Q: SHOWING YOU A COPY OF THE CRIME SCENE LOG, SIR, COULD YOU PLEASE EXAMINE THAT, SEE IF IT DOES REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THE PROBLEM WITH THAT, IF I CAN BE HEARD BRIEFLY, HE'S REFERRING TO SOMEBODY ELSE'S LOG.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, CAN WE --

THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED. ANY ITEM CAN BE USED TO REFRESH RECOLLECTION. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE PREPARED BY THAT INDIVIDUAL.

MR. COCHRAN: WHAT IF HE WASN'T THERE?

THE COURT: IF HE KNOWS.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT TIME WAS THE CRIME SCENE TAKEN DOWN AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?

A: 3:45 P.M.

Q: ON JUNE THE 13TH?

A: YES.

Q: HOW WAS IT DETERMINED WHEN A CRIME SCENE SHOULD BE BROKEN DOWN, SIR?

A: BE DETERMINED BY THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER OR ANY OTHER TECHNICIANS THAT WERE WORKING AT THE SCENE WHETHER OR NOT THEY'D COMPLETED ALL THAT THEY FELT THAT THEY COULD DO AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME.

Q: NOW, AT SOME POINT, IN EVERY CASE YOU'VE EVER WORKED, DOES THERE COME A TIME WHERE YOU HAVE TO COLLECT THE EVIDENCE AND CLOSE DOWN THE SCENE?

A: YES.

Q: TAKE THE TAPE AWAY?

A: YES.

Q: AND THAT OCCURRED AT 3:45 IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE?

A: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION TO THAT. YOUR HONOR, THE PROBLEM IS --

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE APPROACH? MAY WE APPROACH? I THINK THESE SPEAKING OBJECTIONS ARE VERY INAPPROPRIATE.

THE COURT: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE APPROACH?

THE COURT: YES. APPROACH, BOTH OF YOU, WITH THE COURT REPORTER.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)

MR. COCHRAN: MAY I BE HEARD?

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, EVERY TIME COUNSEL HAS AN OBJECTION, THERE'S A SPEECH THAT GOES WITH IT. HE'S BEEN DOING IT ALL DAY LONG.

MR. COCHRAN: I'M TRYING TO AVOID COMING UP HERE EVERY TIME.

MS. CLARK: THAT IS NOT THE WAY TO AVOID IT, BY MAKING ARGUMENT IN FRONT OF THE JURY. EVERY OBJECTION MEANS CLOSING ARGUMENT.

THE COURT: FROM NOW ON, IF I DON'T HEAR -- I AM GOING TO SANCTION THE NEXT LAWYER WHO I HEAR MAKE AN OBJECTION THAT ISN'T ONE OF THE 12 RECOGNIZED OBJECTIONS. ONE WORD OBJECTION. ALL RIGHT.

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THE PROBLEM WITH THIS IS, THIS OFFICER WAS NOT THERE. YOU JUST CAN'T TAKE A RECORD THAT'S NOT AN OFFICIAL RECORD BECAUSE WE HAVE ALREADY HEARD FROM CUMMINGS AND OTHERS -- IF YOU LOOK AT THIS RECORD, HE CHECKS OUT AT 10:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING. YOU CAN'T RELY UPON THAT RECORD. THAT IS MY OBJECTION. IT'S IMPROPER. THE PROBLEM IS, AS A LAWYER, IF I SEE SOMETHING THAT'S WRONG, CLEARLY WRONG, I HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING.

THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, WHAT YOU GET TO DO, YOU GET TO SAY, "IF THIS REFRESHES YOUR RECOLLECTION, HOW WAS IT, SIR, YOU WEREN'T THERE?" AND YOU KNOW THAT THAT IS NOT A RELIABLE RECORD AND THAT GOES TO HIS CREDIBILITY. THAT'S WHAT YOU DO WITH THAT.

MR. COCHRAN: I'M JUST TRYING TO SAVE SOME TIME.

THE COURT: I KNOW.

MR. COCHRAN: ON CROSS-EXAMINATION THEN, I'LL DO THAT.

THE COURT: YOU CAN USE ANYTHING TO REFRESH RECOLLECTION.

MR. COCHRAN: I KNOW. BUT MOST PEOPLE WILL SAY, "IT DOESN'T REFRESH MY RECOLLECTION IN EARLY DECEMBER." THIS WITNESS WASN'T EVEN THERE. OKAY.

THE COURT: OKAY. COUNSEL, ONE-WORD OBJECTIONS. IT'S OVERRULED. THANK YOU.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: THANK YOU. COUNSEL, CONTINUE.

MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: CERTAINLY.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, WHILE YOU WERE PRESENT AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY, SIR, DID YOU EVER SEE CLAUDINE RATCLIFFE OR THE DRIVER GO WEST ON THE WALKWAY LEADING BACK TO THE REAR ALLEY?

A: NO.

Q: WHERE IN THE FRONT OF THE CRIME SCENE DID YOU SEE THEM -- WELL, DID YOU SEE THEM MOVE AROUND?

A: THE INITIAL APPROACH WAS FROM THE YARD AREA JUST TO THE SOUTH OF THE WALKWAY. I OBSERVED THEM ON THE STOOP ABOVE THE SCENE AND I OBSERVED THEM IN THE VICINITY OF BOTH THE VICTIMS.

Q: AND OTHER THAN THAT, DID YOU EVER SEE THEM -- YOU DID NOT SEE THEM IN THE WALKWAY LEADING BACK TO THE REAR ALLEY. DID YOU SEE THEM IN THE REAR DRIVEWAY?

A: NO. THE CLOSEST I SAW THEM TO THAT WOULD BE INSIDE THE RESIDENCE.

Q: DID YOU EVER SEE EITHER ONE OF THEM GO IN OR OUT OF THE GARAGE DOOR?

A: NO.

MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT?

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: OH, LASTLY, SIR, WERE YOU PRESENT WHEN THE PHOTOGRAPHS CONTAINING THE NUMBERED TAGS WERE BEING TAKEN BY THE PHOTOGRAPHER?

A: I WAS IN THE AREA.

Q: OKAY. AND THE NUMBER TAGS THAT WE SAW IN SOME OF THESE PHOTOGRAPHS, DO YOU KNOW WHO PLACED THOSE ITEMS?

A: PLACED THE TAGS?

Q: PLACED THE TAGS, YES.

A: YES. THAT WOULD BE THE CRIMINALIST, MR. FUNG.

Q: AND THE TAGS THAT HE WAS PLACING ON EVIDENCE, WAS THAT EVIDENCE THAT YOU DIRECTED HIM TO HAVE -- TO SPECIFICALLY DIRECT HIS ATTENTION TO?

A: YES.

Q: YOU INDICATED THAT HE ARRIVED BEFORE THE CORONER LEFT.

A: YES.

Q: AND BEFORE THE BODIES WERE REMOVED?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: WHAT DID HE DO BEFORE THE BODIES WERE ACTUALLY REMOVED FROM THE LOCATION, IF ANYTHING?

A: NOTHING.

Q: HAD HE JUST ARRIVED AT THAT POINT?

A: YES.

Q: AND WAS HE WEARING GLOVES, SIR?

A: I DON'T RECALL.

Q: WAS HE WEARING BOOTIES?

A: I DON'T BELIEVE SO, BUT I DON'T RECALL.

Q: YOU DON'T REMEMBER?

A: NO.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.

THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.

MR. COCHRAN: HOW LATE ARE WE GOING TO GO TODAY? I DON'T THINK I CAN FINISH HIM TODAY.

THE COURT: WELL, DO YOUR BEST.

MR. COCHRAN: DO MY BEST? WELL --

THE COURT: WELL, WHAT'S YOUR PREFERENCE, COUNSEL? I MEAN, WE HAVE ABOUT 12 MINUTES REMAINING IN THE COURT DAY.

MR. COCHRAN: 12 MINUTES.

THE COURT: THERE ARE SOME -- MR. SCHECK, ARE THERE STILL SOME DNA MATTERS WE NEED TO RESOLVE? YOUR CHOICE, MR. COCHRAN.

MR. COCHRAN: MAY I HAVE JUST A MOMENT?

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: MR. DARDEN IS ASKING ME PLEASE NOT GO TODAY.

MR. DARDEN: I WAS JUST TELLING MR. COCHRAN I DON'T WANT TO HEAR HIS MOUTH THIS AFTERNOON.

MR. COCHRAN: BECAUSE OF THAT, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK A FEW QUESTIONS IF I MIGHT, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: YOU MAY. PROCEED.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. COCHRAN:

Q: GOOD AFTERNOON, DETECTIVE LANGE.

A: GOOD AFTERNOON.

Q: YOU HAVE BEEN A HOMICIDE DETECTIVE FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: SAY APPROXIMATELY 20 YEARS.

Q: AND AS A HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, YOU'VE HAD SOME GREAT EXPERIENCE IN INVESTIGATING HOMICIDES AS SUCH; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND IN THE COURSE OF YOUR CAREER AS A LOS ANGELES POLICE OFFICER, DETECTIVE, YOU HAVE INVESTIGATED I BELIEVE YOU SAID SOME 250 TO 300 HOMICIDES, RIGHT?

A: EITHER DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY, YES.

Q: AND YOU KNOW THAT WHEN YOU COME ON THE SCENE OF A HOMICIDE AS THE DETECTIVE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU WANT TO KNOW IS, YOU WANT TO TRY TO SOLVE A PARTICULAR CRIME OR CRIMES; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: CERTAINLY.

Q: AND YOU KNOW THAT YOU'RE NOT AN ISLAND ON TO YOURSELF. YOU HAVE A TEAM OF PEOPLE THAT WORK WITH YOU; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: IN MOST CASES. SOME CASES, THAT HASN'T BEEN THAT WAY.

Q: IN THIS CASE, YOU HAD A TEAM OF PEOPLE THAT WOULD ULTIMATELY BE AT YOUR DISPOSAL; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND IN THAT TEAM, YOU WOULD HAVE YOUR PARTNER, DETECTIVE VANNATTER; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: CORRECT.

Q: YOU UTILIZED THE SERVICES OF DETECTIVES FUHRMAN AND PHILLIPS WHILE THEY WERE STILL THERE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: RIGHT.

Q: YOU TOLD US ABOUT THE USE OF A CRIMINALIST; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND THE CRIMINALIST YOU TALKED ABOUT WAS A CRIMINALIST BY THE NAME OF DENNIS FUNG; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: THERE WAS ALSO ANOTHER -- A FEMALE CRIMINALIST WHO CAME OUT THERE BY THE NAME OF MAZZOLA; ISN'T THAT CORRECT.

A: YES.

Q: M-A-Z-Z-O-L-A?

A: I BELIEVE THERE'S TWO L'S, BUT YES.

Q: AND MAZZOLA IN FACT WAS THE OFFICER IN CHARGE AS BETWEEN SHE AND FUNG ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S NOT MY UNDERSTANDING.

Q: DID YOU SEE ANY REPORTS WHICH INDICATED THAT SHE WAS IN FACT THE OFFICER IN CHARGE?

A: I HAVE HEARD OF A REPORT THAT PROBABLY INCORRECTLY STATES THAT SHE WAS. IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING SHE WAS A TRAINEE.

Q: IN FACT, SHE WAS A TRAINEE, WASN'T SHE?

A: I BELIEVE SO, YES.

Q: AND THIS WAS ONLY HER THIRD CRIME SCENE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: I DON'T KNOW.

Q: YOU DON'T KNOW THAT? ALL RIGHT. SO YOU HAVE THESE CRIMINALISTS, AND YOU HAD SOME PRINT PEOPLE, FINGERPRINT PEOPLE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND YOU HAD THEM DO FINGERPRINTS THROUGHOUT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: DID YOU HAVE ANYBODY COME OUT AND CHECK FOR FOOTPRINTS? DID YOU HAVE ANY FOOTPRINT SPECIALISTS THERE?

A: NO. OTHER THAN THE CRIMINALISTS WHO I REQUESTED TO DO A STRIDE ANALYSIS AND PHOTOGRAPH THE PRINTS. OTHER THAN THAT, NO.

Q: DID YOU EVER ASK ANYONE TO GO OVER INTO THIS LOOSE DIRT AREA THAT YOU'VE DESCRIBED FOR US AND ATTEMPT TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT YOU COULD MATCH UP ANY SHOEPRINTS OR FOOTPRINTS IN THAT LOOSE DIRT AREA?

A: I MYSELF CHECKED THAT AREA AND COULDN'T OBSERVE ANY.

Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU COULDN'T OBSERVE ANY?

A: NO.

Q: DID YOU HAVE ANYONE ELSE COME OUT AND TRY TO DO THAT?

A: I DID NOT RECALL SPECIFICALLY TELLING FUNG TO DO THAT. HE MAY HAVE. I DON'T KNOW.

Q: YOU DON'T KNOW IF HE DID IT OR NOT?

A: NO.

Q: YOU KNEW OF COURSE THAT MR. GOLDMAN HAD BEEN IN THAT AREA; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: YOU KNEW OF COURSE THAT HIS ASSAILANT OR ASSAILANTS HAD PERHAPS BEEN IN THAT AREA; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: I BELIEVED THAT TO BE THE CASE.

Q: YOU KNEW BECAUSE YOU SAW A PICTURE OF DETECTIVE FUHRMAN THAT HE HAD BEEN IN THAT AREA, HIS FOOTPRINTS WERE IN THERE; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: RIGHT.

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. COUNSEL IS TESTIFYING. THERE'S BEEN NO FACTS -- ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

MR. COCHRAN: WELL, THAT'S A SPEAKING OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S A SPEAKING OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: AT THIS POINT, THE OBJECTION IS SUSTAINED, BUT IT'S JUST A FOUNDATIONAL QUESTION.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: SURE. YOU'VE SEEN THAT PHOTOGRAPH OF DETECTIVE FUHRMAN POINTING DOWN TOWARD THE FOLIAGE WITH HIS FOOT IN THAT LOOSE DIRT, DIDN'T YOU?

A: YES.

Q: SO YOU KNOW HE WAS IN THERE ALSO; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND WE KNOW -- AT SOME POINT, DID MISS RATCLIFFE GO OVER IN THAT AREA?

A: YES, SHE DID.

Q: DID SHE GO OVER THERE WITH HER ASSISTANT TO MOVE MR. GOLDMAN'S BODY AT SOME POINT?

A: YES.

Q: SO THERE HAD BEEN A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN WALKING IN THIS LOOSE DIRT AREA; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: OVER A PERIOD OF TIME, YES.

Q: YES. PRIOR TO THE BODIES BEING REMOVED, RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, SIR, AS AN EXPERIENCED HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU WOULD WANT TO KNOW AND TRY TO DETERMINE WOULD BE THE TIME OF DEATH OF THESE VICTIMS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND SO THAT WE'RE CLEAR AND THE JURY IS CLEAR, THE L.A. COUNTY CORONER'S OFFICE IS A SEPARATE COUNTY ENTITY, SEPARATE AND DISTINCT FROM THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND THE CORONER'S OFFICE, THEY HAVE THEIR OWN TRAINING; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: THEY HAVE INVESTIGATORS AND THEY HAVE DOCTORS, DON'T THEY?

A: YES.

Q: AND YOU RELY UPON THEM IN THE COURSE OF YOUR HOMICIDE INVESTIGATIONS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: CERTAINLY.

Q: AND OVER THE COURSE OF YOUR 20 YEARS, WHENEVER YOU'VE HAD A BODY IN LOS ANGELES CITY, YOU'VE HAD TO CALL THE CORONER AND YOU'VE HAD TO WORK HAND IN GLOVE WITH THE CORONER; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: THAT'S PROBABLY A GOOD PLAN OF WORDS, HAND AND GLOVE, RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: YOU WORK TOGETHER AND YOU RELY UPON EACH OTHER; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, IN THAT CONNECTION, YOU KNOW THAT THE CORONER'S OFFICE, WHEN THEY GET TO THE SCENE, THEY DO THINGS LIKE TAKE A LIVER TEMPERATURE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT OTHER THINGS ARE YOU AWARE OF THAT THE CORONER'S OFFICE WILL DO IN AN EFFORT TO DETERMINE OR EXTRAPOLATE BACKWARDS AND DETERMINE THE CAUSE OF DEATH -- THE TIME OF DEATH?

A: IN AN EFFORT TO GENERALLY DETERMINE TIME OF DEATH, I'M AWARE OF SEVERAL THINGS THEY WOULD DO. THEY WOULD TEST FOR RIGOR MORTIS. THEY WOULD TEST PERHAPS FOR LIVIDITY. OF COURSE, THE LIVER TEMPERATURE. THEY WOULD INTERVIEW THE INVESTIGATOR AT THE SCENE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. ANYTHING ELSE YOU CAN THINK OF NOW? DO THEY OFTENTIMES CHECK THE EYE FLUIDS?

A: I'M AWARE OF THAT EXAMINATION, BUT I'M ALSO AWARE THAT THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY CORONER'S OFFICE DOES NOT CONDUCT THOSE EXAMINATIONS IN THE FIELD.

Q: BUT YOU ARE AWARE OF THE EYE FLUIDS CHECK?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU MENTIONED RIGOR MORTIS. AND IN THE TIME THAT THE CORONER IS THERE AND THESE BODIES WERE MOVED, WHAT TIME WAS THAT, WAS THE BODY OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON MOVED?

A: APPROXIMATELY 10:30, 10:40, RIGHT IN THAT TIME.

Q: A.M. --

A: A.M.

Q: -- ON JUNE 13TH, RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: AND AT THAT TIME, WAS SHE IN FULL RIGOR MORTIS?

A: SHE WAS.

Q: AND BY THAT, WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY FULL RIGOR MORTIS?

A: BY FULL RIGOR MORTIS, IT MEANS THAT THE MUSCLES IN THE BODY HAVE BECOME RIGID DUE TO A COAGULATION OF PROTEIN IN THE BLOOD.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND WITH REGARD TO THE LIVIDITY, WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT LIVIDITY WITH REGARD TO HER BODY, IF ANYTHING, AT THAT TIME?

A: HER BODY HAD NO LIVIDITY.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND WHAT WAS THE AMBIENT TEMPERATURE AT OR ABOUT THE TIME OF 10:30 A.M.? WHAT WAS THE TEMPERATURE OUTSIDE THERE AT THE TIME THE CORONER ARRIVED?

A: I BELIEVE IT WAS 70 DEGREES.

Q: AND YOU SAID THAT THE CORONERS TOOK HER BODY INTO THE CORONER'S VEHICLE AND TOOK A LIVER TEMPERATURE, RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT WAS THE LIVER TEMPERATURE OBTAINED AT THAT TIME?

A: I BELIEVE THAT THE LIVER TEMPERATURE WAS 82 DEGREES.

Q: NOW, THESE THINGS THAT THE CORONER'S OFFICE DID AT 10:30 A.M., APPROXIMATELY 10 AND A HALF HOURS AFTER THE FIRST OFFICER ARRIVED AT THE SCENE, IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER HAD THEY BEEN ABLE TO DO THOSE THINGS MUCH EARLIER AND AFTER THESE BODIES WERE FOUND; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: NOT NECESSARILY.

Q: WELL, IN A PERFECT HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION, WHICH I'M SURE YOU STRIVE FOR, WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO HAVE THE CORONER OUT THERE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE TO RENDER THAT KIND OF ASSISTANCE, TO CHECK THE LIVER TEMPERATURE, TO CHECK THE LIVIDITY, TO CHECK THE STATE OF RIGOR MORTIS AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE? WOULDN'T YOU WANT THAT?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. THAT WOULD BE IDEAL, WOULD IT NOT, IF YOU COULD DO THAT?

A: THAT WOULD BE IDEAL. WE DON'T OFTEN SEE THAT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, WITH REGARD TO --

MR. COCHRAN: AND I'LL BE MINDFUL OF THE HOUR, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: WITH REGARD TO THIS AREA, THIS LOOSE DIRT AREA YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT --

MR. COCHRAN: AND MAY WE SEE THAT PHOTOGRAPH, JONATHAN?

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: THIS IS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 83, YOUR HONOR. I AM SORRY. PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 83.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, WITH REGARD TO PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 83, A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS. THIS AREA SO THAT WE'RE CLEAR, HOW WIDE IS THIS PARTICULAR AREA? DID YOU TAKE SOME MEASUREMENTS?

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. VAGUE. WHICH AREA?

THE COURT: SUSTAINED. WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION?

MR. COCHRAN: CERTAINLY.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: WHAT'S THE WIDTH OF THIS AREA WHERE MR. GOLDMAN'S BODY WAS LOCATED, THE WIDTH?

A: FROM SOUTH TO NORTH, IN THE DIRECTION THAT WE'RE LOOKING, IT'S FIVE FEET EIGHT INCHES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO IT'S LESS THAN SIX FEET FROM SOUTH TO NORTH. AND FROM THE TREE LOOKING WEST TO EAST, HOW WIDE IS IT?

A: I HAVE IT ON THE SCHEMATIC. I BELIEVE IT'S SOMETHING LIKE FOUR FEET, TWO INCHES.

Q: SO SOMETHING LIKE FIVE FOOT EIGHT INCHES BY FOUR FOOT, TWO INCHES; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND YOU ASCERTAINED, DID YOU NOT, THAT MR. GOLDMAN WAS AT LEAST FIVE FOOT, 10 INCHES TALL?

A: YES.

Q: AND HE WEIGHED HOW MUCH?

A: I BELIEVE IT'S APPROXIMATELY 170, 175 POUNDS.

Q: AND THAT LOOSE DIRT AREA OVER THERE INDICATES TO YOU THAT THERE HAD BEEN SOME MOVEMENT, SOME VIOLENT MOVEMENT OF THE EARTH TO CAUSE THAT AS FAR AS YOU COULD TELL; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: I DON'T KNOW. THAT'S SOMETHING I SURMISED.

Q: WELL, I KNOW YOU WEREN'T AT THE SCENE, RIGHT?

A: RIGHT.

Q: BUT YOU HAVE SURMISED A NUMBER OF THINGS. AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SURMISED WAS THAT DIRT WAS MOVED IN THE COURSE OF THE ALTERCATION; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT, BUT IT DID APPEAR TO BE FRESHLY MOVED, YES.

Q: FRESHLY MOVED DIRT; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?

A: IT APPEARED TO BE THAT WAY.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND YOU ALSO DESCRIBED WHEN MISS CLARK WAS ASKING YOU QUESTIONS, THAT MR. GOLDMAN MAY HAVE HAD SOME KEYS IN HIS HAND AT THE TIME HE WAS BEING CONFRONTED BY ASSAILANT OR ASSAILANTS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND YOU KNOW, DO YOU NOT, THAT IF A PERSON HAS KEYS IN THEIR HAND, THAT IS ONE OF THE WAYS THAT YOU COULD INFLICT A WOUND ON THE PERSON WHO WAS ATTACKING YOU; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: I SUPPOSE THAT'S POSSIBLE.

Q: IN ADDITION TO THAT, AT SOME POINT, MR. GOLDMAN ALSO APPARENTLY HAD A RING ON HIS FINGER; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: I BELIEVE SO.

Q: AND SO THIS AREA THAT WE NOW KNOW IS LESS THAN SIX FEET AND ABOUT FOUR FEET ALSO HAD A TREE AS DEPICTED THERE IN PEOPLE'S 83, KIND OF RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND YOU HAVE DESCRIBED FOR US EARLIER THAT MR. GOLDMAN IN THE COURSE OF THIS ALTERCATION SUSTAINED SOME DEFENSIVE WOUNDS, IS THAT CORRECT, IN HIS HANDS?

A: APPEARED TO BE THAT WAY, YES.

Q: HAD SOME CUTS ON HIS HANDS?

A: YES.

Q: AND YOU KNOW AND IT'S YOUR OPINION THAT HE PUT UP A VIGOROUS FIGHT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: IT WAS APPARENT HE DID PUT UP A FIGHT, YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. IN THIS VERY SMALL AREA; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: I BELIEVE SO, YES.

MR. COCHRAN: IT'S 4:30. WE'LL RESUME TOMORROW. THANK YOU.

THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS FOR THE AFTERNOON. PLEASE REMEMBER ALL MY ADMONITIONS TO YOU, DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONGST YOURSELVES, DON'T FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, DO NOT ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU REGARDING THE CASE, DO NOT CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU. WE'LL SEE YOU BACK HERE TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:00 O'CLOCK. ALL RIGHT. HAVE A PLEASANT EVENING. DETECTIVE LANGE, YOU MAY STEP DOWN. YOU ARE ORDERED TO RETURN TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:00 O'CLOCK.

THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: THANK YOU.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: WE'LL TAKE A BRIEF RECESS AND THEN I'LL SEE COUNSEL ON THE DNA MATTERS IN CHAMBERS.

(AT 4:35 P.M. AN ADJOURNMENT WAS TAKEN UNTIL, WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 22, 1993, 9:00 A.M.)

SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, )
)
PLAINTIFF, )
)
) VS. ) NO. BA097211
)
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
)
)
DEFENDANT. )

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 21, 1995

VOLUME 91

PAGES 15433 THROUGH 15676, INCLUSIVE
(PAGES 15452 THROUGH 15455, INCLUSIVE, SEALED)

APPEARANCES: (SEE PAGE 2)

JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR #4588
CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR #2378 OFFICIAL REPORTERS

APPEARANCES:

FOR THE PEOPLE: GIL GARCETTI, DISTRICT ATTORNEY
BY: MARCIA R. CLARK, WILLIAM W.
HODGMAN, CHRISTOPHER A. DARDEN,
CHERI A. LEWIS, ROCKNE P. HARMON,
GEORGE W. CLARKE, SCOTT M. GORDON
LYDIA C. BODIN, HANK M. GOLDBERG,
AND DARRELL S. MAVIS, DEPUTIES
18-000 CRIMINAL COURTS BUILDING
210 WEST TEMPLE STREET
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90012

FOR THE DEFENDANT: ROBERT L. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
SARA L. CAPLAN, ESQUIRE
2121 AVENUE OF THE STARS
19TH FLOOR
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90067

JOHNNIE L. COCHRAN, JR., ESQUIRE
BY: CARL E. DOUGLAS, ESQUIRE
SHAWN SNIDER CHAPMAN, ESQUIRE
4929 WILSHIRE BOULEVARD
SUITE 1010
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90010

GERALD F. UELMEN, ESQUIRE
ROBERT KARDASHIAN, ESQUIRE
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ESQUIRE
F. LEE BAILEY, ESQUIRE
BARRY SCHECK, ESQUIRE
ROBERT D. BLASIER, ESQUIRE

I N D E X

INDEX FOR VOLUME 91 PAGES 15433 - 15676

-----------------------------------------------------

DAY DATE SESSION PAGE VOL.

MONDAY FEBRUARY 21, 1995 A.M. 15433 91
P.M. 15546 91
-----------------------------------------------------

PROCEEDINGS

MOTION RE CONDITIONAL EXAMINATION OF 15433 91
ROSA LOPEZ

LEGEND:

MS. CLARK - MC
MR. HODGMAN - H
MR. DARDEN D
MR. KAHN - K
MR. GOLDBERG - GB
MR. GORDON - G
MR. SHAPIRO - S
MR. COCHRAN - C
MR. DOUGLAS - CD
MR. BAILEY - B
MR. UELMEN - U
MR. SCHECK - BS
MR. NEUFELD - N

-----------------------------------------------------

CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES

PEOPLE'S
WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS VOL.

LANGE, TOM 91
(FREDERICK)
(RESUMED) 15458MC
(RESUMED) 15553MC 15662C

-----------------------------------------------------

ALPHABETICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES

PEOPLE'S
WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS VOL.

LANGE, TOM 91
(FREDERICK)
(RESUMED) 15458MC
(RESUMED) 15553MC 15662C

EXHIBITS

PEOPLE'S FOR IN
EXHIBIT IDENTIFICATION EVIDENCE

PAGE VOL. PAGE VOL.

63-C - PHOTOGRAPH OF 15486 91
360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM AVENUE WITH RED MARKINGS
AND THE INITIALS "T.L."

79 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 15539 91
A CLOSE-UP OF THE CRIME SCENE WITH YELLOW TAPE
AND RED MARKINGS

80 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 15553 91
THE CRIME SCENE WITH THE LEG AND FEET OF VICTIM
NICOLE BROWN SIMIPSON

54-A-1 - PRINT OF 15560 91
PHOTOGRAPH OF CRIME SCENE WITH THE BODY OF
VICTIM GOLDMAN AND RED MARKINGS WITH THE
INITIALS "T.L."

81 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 15571 91
THE CRIME SCENE AREA WHERE VICTIM GOLDMAN WAS
FOUND

81-A - PRINT OF 15574 91
PHOTOGRAPH OF THE CRIME SCENE AREA WHERE VICTIM
GOLDMAN WAS FOUND WITH TWO RED ARROWS AND THE
INITIALS "T.L."

82 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 15576 91
CLOSE-UP OF GROUND AT CRIME SCENE WITH WHITE
SHEET OF PAPER

83 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 15577 91
PAGER ON GROUND AT CRIME SCENE

84 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 15610 91
TWO INDIVIDUALS AT THE STAIRWELL OF THE CRIME
SCENE

67-A - 1-PAGE DOCUMENT 15615 91
GTE PHONE RECORDS FOR THE TELEPHONE NUMBER
(310) 476-4619

85 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 15621 91
THE CALIFORNIA DRIVER'S LICENSE OF VICTIM RONALD
GOLDMAN AND UNION BANK CARD

EXHIBITS
(CONTINUED)

PEOPLE'S FOR IN
EXHIBIT IDENTIFICATION EVIDENCE

PAGE VOL. PAGE VOL.

81-B - PHOTOGRAPH OF 15635 91
THE CRIME SCENE AREA WHERE VICTIM GOLDMAN WAS
FOUND WITH ONE RED ARROW AND THE INITIALS "T.L."

86 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 15645 91
FRONT VIEW OF CRIME SCENE WITH YELLOW TAPE

??

15507