DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE

APPEARANCES: (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)

(JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)

(CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GOOD MORNING, COUNSEL.

MR. COCHRAN: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. MR. SIMPSON IS AGAIN PRESENT BEFORE THE COURT WITH HIS COUNSEL, MR. SHAPIRO, MR. COCHRAN, MR. DOUGLAS, MR. BAILEY. THE PEOPLE ARE REPRESENTED BY MISS CLARK AND MR. DARDEN. COUNSEL, THERE IS ANYTHING WE NEED TO PUT ON THE RECORD BEFORE WE INVITE THE JURY INTO JOIN US? ALL RIGHT. DEPUTY MAGNERA, WOULD YOU INVITE THE JURY TO JOIN US, PLEASE.

MS. CLARK: MAY THE WITNESS TAKE THE STAND, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: YES.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED. ALL RIGHT. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE HAVE NOW BEEN JOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL. GOOD MORNING AGAIN, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

THE JURY: GOOD MORNING.

THE COURT: DETECTIVE RON PHILLIPS IS STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND ON DIRECT EXAMINATION.

RONALD PHILLIPS, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE EVENING ADJOURNMENT, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:

THE COURT: GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.

THE WITNESS: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: DETECTIVE, YOU ARE REMINDED THAT YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH. AND MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CONTINUE WITH YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

BY MS. CLARK:

Q: GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.

A: GOOD MORNING.

Q: YESTERDAY I BELIEVE WHEN WE LEFT OFF YOU HAD GONE TO THE GUEST UNIT THAT IS BEHIND THE MAIN HOUSE AT 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM AND YOU SAID YOU WENT AND KNOCKED ON THE DOOR?

A: YES.

Q: WHEN YOU KNOCKED ON THE DOOR FOR THE FIRST TIME, WHAT HAPPENED?

A: I KNOCKED ON THE DOOR. NOBODY ANSWERED THE DOOR ORIGINALLY, SO I BENT DOWN, BECAUSE THE LOUVERS ON THE BOTTOM PART OF THE DOOR WERE OPENED, AND I PEERED INTO THE LOUVERS AND I SAW WHAT APPEARED TO BE A HAND AND AN ARM AND IN A LYING POSITION, SO I INFORMED THE OTHER DETECTIVES THAT THERE WAS SOMEONE IN THE ROOM LYING DOWN, AND SHORTLY THEREAFTER SOMEONE ANSWERED THE DOOR.

Q: AND THAT SOMEONE THAT YOU LATER DETERMINED WAS KATO KAELIN, IS THAT WHAT YOU TESTIFIED TO?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHEN YOU -- WHEN YOU FIRST CONTACTED MR. KAELIN, YOU IDENTIFIED YOURSELF, SIR?

A: YES, I DID.

Q: WHAT DID YOU SAY TO HIM?

A: I TOLD HIM I WAS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS FROM THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT AND I WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK TO WHOEVER -- TO MR. SIMPSON IN THE HOUSE.

Q: AND WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE?

MR. COCHRAN: HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.

MS. CLARK: GOES TO EXPLAIN SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: HE JUST SAID THAT HE WASN'T THERE OR HE DIDN'T KNOW IF HE WAS THERE. I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE NOW EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. AND DID YOU ASK ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS OF HIM?

A: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS OF HIM, NO.

Q: DID YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHETHER THERE WAS SOMEONE AROUND WHO COULD GET YOU INTO THE HOUSE TO LOOK FOR MR. SIMPSON?

A: YES.

Q: DID YOU MAKE ANY INQUIRY OF HIM IN THAT REGARD?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT INQUIRY?

A: HE BROUGHT IT TO MY ATTENTION, THAT ARNELLE, MR. SIMPSON'S DAUGHTER, WAS IN THE ROOM DIRECTLY TO HIS RIGHT, AND HE POINTED DOWN THE WALKWAY TO ANOTHER ROOM.

Q: AND SO HE POINTED OUT ARNELLE'S ROOM IN RESPONSE TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: NOW, DID YOU TELL HIM WHY YOU WERE DOING THERE, WHY YOU WERE AT THAT LOCATION?

A: NO, NO.

Q: WHY NOT?

A: I DIDN'T KNOW WHO HE WAS, TO BEGIN WITH. DIDN'T WANT TO CAUSE ANY HYSTERIA AROUND THE RESIDENCE BY TELLING THE WRONG PERSON THE WRONG THING. I WANTED TO TELL THIS TO MR. SIMPSON HIMSELF.

Q: DID YOU KNOW AT THAT TIME WHETHER HE WAS RELATED TO ANYONE ON THE PREMISES?

A: I HAD NO IDEA WHO HE WAS AT ALL.

Q: SO AFTER HE POINTED OUT ARNELLE'S UNIT TO YOU, WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: I WALKED DOWN TO ARNELLE'S ROOM.

Q: AND WAS THAT RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO HIS?

A: YES, IT WAS.

Q: AND WAS EVERYBODY WITH YOU AT THAT POINT WHEN YOU WALKED DOWN TO ARNELLE'S ROOM?

A: ONLY VANNATTER AND LANGE WALKED WITH ME. I BELIEVE THAT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN STAYED BEHIND WITH MR. KAELIN.

Q: DID YOU ACTUALLY SEE HIM GO IN AND TALK TO MR. KAELIN?

A: NO, I DIDN'T.

Q: BUT YOU SAW -- BUT HE DID STAY BEHIND WITH HIM WHILE YOU WENT NEXT DOOR?

A: I DIDN'T SEE WHAT HE DID. HE JUST DIDN'T FOLLOW ME.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: KNOCKED ON THE ROOM THAT HAD BEEN POINTED OUT TO ME AS ARNELLE'S ROOM AND SOMEONE ASKED ME WHO IT WAS AND I SAID "THE POLICE" AND THEN A FEMALE ANSWERED THE DOOR.

Q: AND THAT FEMALE, DID SHE IDENTIFY HERSELF?

A: I ASKED HER WHO SHE WAS AND SHE TOLD ME HER NAME WAS ARNELLE SIMPSON.

Q: AND WHAT DID YOU SAY?

A: I TOLD HER I WAS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS FROM THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT, THAT WE HAD AN EMERGENCY AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF HER FATHER WAS IN THE HOUSE, WE NEEDED TO TALK TO HIM.

Q: AND WHAT WAS HER RESPONSE?

A: SHE MADE A STATEMENT TO EITHER VANNATTER OR LANGE AND I DIDN'T RECALL EXACTLY WHAT THAT STATEMENT WAS. IT WAS SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT "ISN'T HE THERE?" AND THEN THEY BEGAN TO TALK TO HER.

Q: WHEN SHE SAID "ISN'T HE THERE," DO YOU MEAN IN THE HOUSE?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. THAT IS SPECULATION.

THE COURT: THIS IS HEARSAY. IT IS NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF EXPLAINING SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT AT THIS POINT.

MR. COCHRAN: MOVE TO STRIKE.

MS. CLARK: I'M JUST ASKING FOR HER --

THE COURT: SIDE BAR WITHOUT THE REPORTER.

MS. CLARK: YES.

(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

THE COURT: THANK YOU. COUNSEL. MISS CLARK, YOU MAY CONTINUE.

MS. CLARK: I WILL MOVE ON TO THE NEXT QUESTION.

Q: AND AFTER ARNELLE ASKED YOU THAT QUESTION, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: THE -- MYSELF AND THE OTHER TWO DETECTIVES AND ARNELLE WALKED TOWARDS THE MAIN HOUSE.

Q: NOW, DURING THAT TIME COULD YOU HEAR CONVERSATION IN KATO -- GOING ON IN KATO KAELIN'S ROOM WHILE YOU WERE TALKING TO ARNELLE?

A: NO.

Q: WHEN YOU -- DID YOU WALK WITH ARNELLE SOMEWHERE AFTER YOU SPOKE TO HER?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHERE DID YOU WALK?

A: WALKED TO THE REAR OF THE MAIN HOUSE -- NOT TO THE REAR OF THE MAIN HOUSE, BUT THE BACK PORTION OF THE MAIN HOUSE WHERE THERE WAS SOME FRENCH DOORS AND ANOTHER SMALLER DOOR RIGHT NEXT TO IT.

Q: WHEN YOU WALKED TOWARD THE MAIN HOUSE, DID YOU PASS BY MR. KAELIN'S ROOM?

A: YES.

Q: DID YOU LOOK INSIDE?

A: NO, I DIDN'T.

Q: WHERE DID YOU GO?

A: WALKED UP TO ONE -- ONE DOOR THAT LED INTO THE HOUSE AND ARNELLE SIMPSON UNLOCKED THE DOOR FOR US AND OPENED THE DOOR.

Q: AND DID YOU ALL WALK INSIDE?

A: YES.

Q: AND THAT WAS WHO AT THAT POINT?

A: THAT WAS ARNELLE SIMPSON, MYSELF, TOM LANGE AND PHIL VANNATTER.

Q: WENT IN THROUGH THE REAR?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHERE DID YOU GO?

A: WE WALKED IN THROUGH THE LIVING ROOM AREA AND THEN INTO A KITCHEN AREA AND FROM THE KITCHEN AREA WE WALKED AROUND TO A MAID'S QUARTERS THAT WAS OFF THE KITCHEN.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING, SIR. BEFORE YOU ACTUALLY WENT INTO THE HOUSE WITH ARNELLE, YOU INDICATED THAT THERE WAS A CONVERSATION THAT TOOK PLACE WHILE ARNELLE WAS STILL IN HER ROOM BETWEEN DETECTIVES LANGE, VANNATTER AND ARNELLE SIMPSON?

A: YES.

Q: OKAY. AND WERE YOU PRESENT DURING THAT CONVERSATION?

A: YES.

Q: DO YOU RECALL WHAT THEY SAID TO EACH OTHER?

A: I DON'T RECALL THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION.

MR. COCHRAN: HE HAS ANSWERED THE QUESTION.

THE COURT: NEXT QUESTION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU ENTERED THE REAR OF THE HOUSE WITH MISS SIMPSON, WHAT HAPPENED FIRST? WHAT WAS THE FIRST THING YOU DID?

A: WE WALKED INTO THE KITCHEN AREA THROUGH THE LIVING ROOM AND WE WENT INTO THIS ROOM RIGHT OFF THE KITCHEN WHEN TURNED OUT TO BE A MAID'S ROOM.

Q: WHY DID YOU DO THAT?

A: WE WENT IN THERE TO SEE IF A MAID NAMED GIGI WAS IN THE RESIDENCE.

Q: WHY YOU WERE LOOKING FOR GIGI?

A: BECAUSE WE HAD BEEN TOLD OUTSIDE THE RESIDENCE BEFORE WE EVER ENTERED IT THAT THERE WAS A FULL-TIME MAID THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE LIVING ON THE PREMISES AND ARNELLE HAD MADE REFERENCE TO GIGI WHEN WE WENT OUTSIDE THE RESIDENCE BEFORE EVER ENTERING.

Q: WHAT WAS THAT COMMENT SHE MADE?

A: SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT, "ISN'T GIGI IN THE HOUSE?" OR SOMETHING TO THAT NATURE.

Q: SO YOU WERE LOOKING FOR GIGI?

A: YES.

Q: WHY WERE YOU LOOKING FOR GIGI?

A: WE HAD BEEN TOLD BY THE WESTEC PEOPLE THAT SHE WAS A FULL -- LIVE-IN MAID, FULL-TIME, AND ARNELLE HAD ALSO BROUGHT HER NAME UP, SO WE THOUGHT IF WE COULD FIND HER, SHE MAY KNOW WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS AT IN THE HOUSE.

Q: AND YOU WENT INTO HER ROOM THEN?

A: WE JUST WENT INTO THE ROOM BRIEFLY, YES.

Q: AND WHAT DID YOU SEE IN THE ROOM?

A: THERE WAS NOBODY INSIDE THE ROOM AND THE BED WAS COMPLETELY MADE AND THE ROOM WAS WELL ORGANIZED AND IT DIDN'T APPEAR THAT ANYBODY HAD BEEN IN THERE RECENTLY.

Q: THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: WALKED BACK OUT INTO THE KITCHEN.

Q: NOW, WAS ARNELLE TALKING TO YOU DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME?

A: SHE WAS RIGHT WITH US.

Q: AND WHAT WAS SHE SAYING?

A: WANTED TO KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON.

Q: DID YOU TELL HER?

A: I DID NOT.

Q: WHY NOT?

A: WANTED TO TALK TO -- WANTED TO FIND OUT WHERE HER FATHER WAS FIRST AND TALK TO HER FATHER FIRST AND TOM LANGE WAS TALKING TO ARNELLE AT THE SAME TIME.

Q: WHY DID YOU WANT TO TALK TO MR. SIMPSON BEFORE YOU TOLD ARNELLE SIMPSON WHAT WAS GOING ON?

A: BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW HOW UPSET SHE WAS GOING TO GET WITH THE INFORMATION. SHE MAY BECOME HYSTERICAL ABOUT IT. AND I WANTED TO KEEP EVERYTHING AS CALM AS COULD BE UNTIL I COULD GET AHOLD OF MR. SIMPSON HIMSELF.

Q: DID YOU WANT TO KEEP HER -- DID YOU WANT HER ASSISTANCE IN TRYING TO LOCATE MR. SIMPSON?

A: YES.

Q: SO WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: I ASKED HER IF SHE KNEW OF ANY WAY THAT I COULD GET AHOLD OF HER FATHER AND SHE SAID THAT A LADY NAMED CATHY, HIS SECRETARY, ALWAYS KNOWS WHERE HE IS, SO I THEN ASKED HER IF SHE COULD GET AHOLD OF CATHY AND SHE DID, SHE GOT AHOLD OF CATHY ON THE TELEPHONE.

Q: WAS THAT IN YOUR PRESENCE?

A: YES.

Q: WERE YOU PRESENT THEN WHEN SHE SPOKE TO SOMEONE NAMED CATHY?

A: YES.

Q: AFTER THAT WHAT HAPPENED?

A: SHE TOLD CATHY ON THE PHONE THAT THE POLICE WANTED TO TALK TO HER AND SHE HANDED ME THE PHONE.

Q: THEN DID YOU SPEAK TO SOMEONE ON THE OTHER END OF THE PHONE?

A: YES. I IDENTIFIED MYSELF AS DETECTIVE RON PHILLIPS OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT AND I NEEDED TO KNOW IF SHE KNEW WHERE O.J. SIMPSON WAS AT.

Q: DID YOU TELL HER WHY?

A: NO, I DID NOT. I TOLD HER WE HAD AN EMERGENCY, BUT I DID NOT TELL HER WHAT THE EMERGENCY WAS.

Q: DID SHE ASK YOU?

A: SHE ASKED ME WHAT WAS WRONG AND I TOLD HER I COULDN'T TELL HER. I TOLD HER I WOULD CALL HER BACK AND TELL HER LATER.

Q: AGAIN, WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL HER?

MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL, YOUR HONOR, AT THIS POINT.

THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER.

THE WITNESS: FOR THE SAME REASON. I WANTED HER COOPERATION IN FINDING OUT WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS FIRST. I DIDN'T WANT HER TO BECOME ALARMED AND UPSET AND HANG UP ON ME AND THEN MAKE THE PHONE CALL HERSELF.

Q: WHY DIDN'T YOU WANT HER TO MAKE THE PHONE CALL HERSELF?

A: BECAUSE I HAD THE INFORMATION OF WHAT I NEEDED TO TELL MR. SIMPSON AND I WANTED TO MAKE SURE HE GOT IT FIRSTHAND FROM ME AND NOT SECONDHAND FROM SOMEBODY ELSE AND NOT THE FACTS.

Q: SOMEONE WHO DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND WHAT INFORMATION DID THIS PERSON GIVE YOU?

A: SHE TOLD ME THAT MR. SIMPSON HAD GONE ON A RED EYE FLIGHT THE NIGHT BEFORE AND HE TRAVELED TO CHICAGO AND THAT HE WAS STAYING AT THE CHICAGO O'HARE PLAZA HOTEL.

Q: DID SHE GIVE YOU THE PHONE NUMBER?

A: NO, SHE DID NOT, SHE DIDN'T HAVE IT, BUT I THANKED HER VERY MUCH FOR HER COOPERATION AND I CALLED INFORMATION AND GOT THE PHONE NUMBER.

Q: DID YOU DO THAT IMMEDIATELY AFTER YOU HUNG UP WITH HER?

A: YES, I DID.

Q: WHAT DID YOU DO IMMEDIATELY AFTER YOU GOT THE NUMBER?

A: CALLED THE HOTEL IN CHICAGO.

Q: AND DID YOU ASK FOR MR. SIMPSON?

A: I ASKED FOR O.J. SIMPSON'S ROOM. I ASKED IF MR. SIMPSON WAS REGISTERED AT THAT HOTEL AND THEY SAID, "JUST A MOMENT."

Q: AND THEN?

A: SHORTLY THEREAFTER A MALE VOICE WHICH I RECOGNIZED AS MR. SIMPSON'S VOICE ANSWERED THE PHONE AND I ASKED HIM, I SAID, "IS THIS O.J. SIMPSON?" AND HE STATED, "YES, WHO IS THIS?" AND I SAID, "THIS IS DETECTIVE PHILLIPS FROM THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT. I HAVE SOME BAD NEWS FOR YOU."

Q: OKAY. CAN WE HOLD ON ONE SECOND HERE.

A: YES.

Q: WHAT PHONE DID YOU MAKE THAT CALL FROM?

A: THE TELEPHONE IN MR. SIMPSON'S KITCHEN.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE HERE A BOARD THAT I HAVE SHOWN TO COUNSEL.

MR. DARDEN: IT IS GOING TO BE 67.

MS. CLARK: 67, THANK YOU.

THE COURT: 67.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

(PEO'S 67 FOR ID = POSTERBOARD)

THE COURT: MISS CLARK.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.

Q: DO YOU SEE THE EXHIBIT THAT HAS JUST BEEN PLACED NEXT TO YOU, PEOPLE'S 67?

A: YES.

Q: AND DO YOU SEE THE PORTION -- DO YOU SEE, FIRST OF ALL, WHAT THAT IS?

A: YES, IT IS.

Q: WHAT IS THAT?

A: IT IS A GENERAL TELEPHONE BILL, TELEPHONE BILL FROM A RESIDENCE.

Q: DO YOU SEE THE PHONE NUMBER, WITHOUT READING IT --

A: YES.

Q: -- OUT LOUD?

A: RIGHT.

Q: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PHONE NUMBER?

A: YES.

Q: FOR WHAT -- EXCUSE ME. WAS THAT THE PHONE NUMBER OF THE PHONE THAT YOU USED TO CALL CHICAGO FROM THE DEFENDANT'S RESIDENCE?

A: YES.

Q: DO YOU SEE THE PORTION OF THAT BILL THAT IS HIGHLIGHTED?

A: YES, I DO.

Q: AND DOES THAT INDICATE THAT THERE WAS A CALL MADE FROM THE PHONE IN THE KITCHEN OF THE DEFENDANT'S RESIDENCE TO CHICAGO AT 6:05?

A: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. I DON'T THINK THAT BILL TELLS YOU THE PHONE. IT WAS MADE FROM THE KITCHEN.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

MR. COCHRAN: SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

MS. CLARK: I WILL WITHDRAW THAT, YOUR HONOR.

Q: DOES THAT REFLECT THAT A PHONE CALL WAS MADE FROM THE DEFENDANT'S PHONE ON JUNE THE 13TH AT 6:05 TO CHICAGO?

A: YES.

Q: AND THE PHONE NUMBER TO CHICAGO THAT IS SHOWN AT 6:05, IS THAT THE PHONE NUMBER FOR THE O'HARE HOTEL, O'HARE PLAZA HOTEL THAT YOU CALLED?

A: I DON'T -- IT LOOKS LIKE THE SAME PHONE NUMBER, YES.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

THE COURT: MISS CLARK, DO YOU WANT TO HAVE THAT -- THAT BOARD SHOWN TO THE JURORS IN THE CHEAP SEATS?

MS. CLARK: WHAT I THOUGHT I WOULD DO IS ACTUALLY SHOW ON THE ELMO, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: LET ME ASK, IS THIS STILL MR. SIMPSON'S PHONE NUMBER, COUNSEL?

THE DEFENDANT: (SHAKES HEAD FROM SIDE TO SIDE.)

THE COURT: OKAY. I DIDN'T WANT TO SEND IT OUT IF IT WAS STILL HIS PHONE NUMBER.

MR. COCHRAN: WITH REGARD TO THE NUMBER --

THE COURT: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: -- MAY I SAY A WORD TO MISS CLARK ON THAT?

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, CAN WE TAKE IT OFF THE ELMO FOR JUST A MOMENT? MAY WE APPROACH ON THAT?

THE COURT: SURE.

MR. COCHRAN: I'M JUST CONCERNED ABOUT SOME OF THESE OTHER PEOPLE.

THE COURT: SURE.

(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MISS CLARK, WHY DON'T YOU HAVE ONE OF YOUR ASSISTANTS TAKE THE BOARD DOWN AT THIS POINT.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. IS THERE A STIPULATION THAT YOU CARE TO OFFER?

MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR. RATHER THAN AIR THE PHONE NUMBERS OF EVERYONE ELSE ON THE BILL, WE WILL STIPULATE THAT THE DEFENDANT CALLED -- EXCUSE ME. THAT THE DETECTIVE -- DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, CALLED THE DEFENDANT IN CHICAGO ON JUNE 13 AT 6:05 A.M. -- NO, NO, NO, TAKE IT DOWN -- AT 6:05 A.M. AND THE CALL LASTED FOR FIVE MINUTES.

MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD STIPULATE THAT DETECTIVE PHILLIPS CALLED MR. SIMPSON AT 6:05 A.M.

MS. CLARK: IN CHICAGO ON JUNE 13?

MR. COCHRAN: YES.

THE COURT: AND THE CALL LASTED FIVE MINUTES AND THE CALL EMANATED SOMEWHERE FROM THE DEFENDANT'S RESIDENCE.

MR. COCHRAN: SO STIPULATED, YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, AS I TOLD YOU, A STIPULATION IS AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE ATTORNEYS AS TO THE FACTS OF THE CASE. YOU ARE TO ACCEPT THE STIPULATION AS EVIDENCE. THE REASON WE ARE DOING THIS IS THE PHONE BILL HAS OTHER PERSON'S PHONE NUMBERS ON IT THAT WE JUST DON'T WANT TO SUBJECT TO ANY UNDUE HARASSMENT BECAUSE OF THIS CASE, AND THERE IS NO DISPUTE AS TO THE PHONE NUMBER. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. I APPRECIATE THAT.

MR. COCHRAN: CERTAINLY, YOUR HONOR.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.

THE COURT: MISS CLARK.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

Q: AND THEN YOU SPOKE TO SOMEONE WHO ACKNOWLEDGED THAT HE WAS MR. SIMPSON?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: I TOLD HIM WHO I WAS, I WAS DETECTIVE RON PHILLIPS FROM THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT AND THAT I HAD SOME BAD NEWS FOR HIM AND HE SAID SOMETHING ABOUT, "WHAT'S THAT?" AND I SAYS, "WELL, I GOT SOME BAD NEWS. YOUR EX-WIFE, NICOLE SIMPSON, HAS BEEN KILLED."

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: HE -- I THINK THE FIRST WORDS OUT OF HIS MOUTH WERE SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT. "OH, MY GOD. NICOLE IS KILLED? AND OH, MY GOD, SHE IS DEAD?" AND THEN HE GOT VERY UPSET ON THE TELEPHONE.

Q: AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED?

A: I KEPT TRYING TO CALM HIM DOWN AND HE CONTINUED TO BE UPSET, WHICH I EXPECTED, AND HE CONTINUED TO BE UPSET AND I FINALLY SAID, "MR. SIMPSON, PLEASE TRY TO GET AHOLD OF YOURSELF. I HAVE YOUR CHILDREN AT THE WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION. I NEED TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THAT." AND HE SAID -- AND HE SAID, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU HAVE MY CHILDREN AT THE POLICE STATION? WHY ARE MY KIDS AT THE POLICE STATION?" AND I SAID, "BECAUSE WE HAD NO PLACE ELSE TO TAKE THEM. THEY ARE THERE FOR SAFEKEEPING. I NEED TO KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR CHILDREN." AND AT THAT TIME HE SAID, "WELL, I'M GOING TO BE LEAVING OUT OF CHICAGO ON THE FIRST AVAILABLE FLIGHT. I WILL COME BACK TO LOS ANGELES. IS ARNELLE THERE?" AND I SAID, "YES, SHE IS." AND HE SAID, "LET ME TALK TO ARNELLE" WHICH I GAVE THE PHONE BACK TO ARNELLE.

Q: NOW, DURING -- DID HE ASK YOU WHEN THE MURDER OCCURRED?

A: I DIDN'T TELL HIM THAT SHE HAD BEEN MURDERED. I TOLD HIM SHE HAD BEEN KILLED.

Q: DID HE ASK YOU WHEN THAT HAD HAPPENED?

A: NO.

Q: DID HE ASK YOU HOW THAT HAPPENED?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THIS, YOUR HONOR. I OBJECT TO THIS FORM OF THE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS A MAN WHO JUST --

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: WAIT.

MR. COCHRAN: YES. I OBJECT AND I WOULD LIKE TO OBJECT AT THE SIDE BAR.

THE COURT: YES, WITH THE REPORTER.

MR. COCHRAN: YES.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)

MS. CLARK: SIDE BAR NO. 4 ALREADY.

THE COURT: WHAT IS YOUR OBJECTION?

MR. COCHRAN: MY OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, THIS IS IMPROPER. THE -- COUNSEL IS NOW SEEKING TO ELICIT THAT HE DIDN'T ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW HIS WIFE HAD BEEN KILLED. HE JUST SAID THE MAN WAS UPSET AND JUST HEARD HIS WIFE WAS KILLED. AND IF THERE WAS AN OBJECTION FOR GROSS INSENSITIVITY, THAT WOULD BE IT, BUT I'M JUST OBJECTING TO THE FORM OF THESE QUESTION. THERE WAS A CONVERSATION WHEN SOMEBODY HAS JUST BEEN TOLD THAT HIS WIFE HAS BEEN KILLED AND THAT -- I THINK IT IS IMPROPER TO GO INTO, WELL, DID HE ASK YOU HOW SHE WAS KILLED? DID YOU ASK -- HE TOLD US WHAT THE CONVERSATION WAS. SO, YOU KNOW, HE CAN'T -- I THINK SHE IS TRYING TO CREATE A NEGATIVE INFERENCE BY ASKING THESE QUESTIONS. THE INVESTIGATOR GAVE US THE CONVERSATION ALREADY. SHE CAN SEE IF HE ASKED ANYTHING ELSE, BUT IT IS CLEAR THIS OFFICER IS GIVING HIS RECOLLECTION WHATEVER THE CONVERSATION WAS. MR. SIMPSON'S MAY NOT COMPORT WITH THAT TOTALLY, BUT I THINK IT IS UNFAIR TO ASK, WELL, DID HE ASK THIS, DID HE ASK HOW SHE DIED, DID HE ASK THAT, WHEN HE IS CONCERNED ABOUT HIS KIDS AND COMING BACK TO CALIFORNIA. I THINK SHE KNOWS WHEN THE CONVERSATION -- THAT IS NOT FAIR.

THE COURT: UH-HUH.

MR. COCHRAN: THE CIRCUMSTANCES --

MS. CLARK: THAT IS WHAT CROSS-EXAMINATION IS FOR. THERE IS NOTHING IMPERMISSIBLE IN THESE QUESTIONS. I'M ASKING HIM WHAT THE DEFENDANT'S RESPONSE WAS. THERE IS NOTHING IMPERMISSIBLE. IF COUNSEL WANTS TO CROSS-EXAMINE AND BRING OUT THE FACT THAT HE WAS UPSET, THAT IS WHAT IT IS FOR, AND COUNSEL KNOWS THAT VERY WELL. THIS IS AN EXPERIENCED TRIAL ATTORNEY HERE. THIS IS NOT SOME NOVICE. HE KNOWS THAT THESE QUESTIONS ARE PERMISSIBLE.

THE COURT: I DON'T NEED TO BE TOLD ABOUT THE LIFE EXPERIENCE OF THE LAWYERS HERE. I JUST WANT TO KNOW YOU FEEL THERE IS AN INSUFFICIENT LEGAL BASIS FOR THE OBJECTION, CORRECT?

MS. CLARK: THAT'S RIGHT.

THE COURT: THANK YOU. THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PROCEED.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

Q: DID MR. SIMPSON ASK YOU HOW SHE WAS KILLED?

A: NO.

Q: DID HE ASK YOU WHEN SHE WAS KILLED?

A: NO.

Q: DID HE ASK YOU IF YOU HAD ANY IDEA WHO HAD DONE IT?

A: NO.

Q: DID HE ASK YOU WHERE IT HAD OCCURRED?

A: NO.

Q: DID HE ASK YOU ANYTHING ABOUT THE CIRCUMSTANCE OF HOW HIS EX-WIFE HAD BEEN KILLED?

A: NO.

Q: DID HE PROCEED TO SPEAK WITH ARNELLE AND GIVE HER INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT THE CHILDREN?

MR. COCHRAN: HOW WOULD HE KNOW, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: SORRY. DID ARNELLE HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM AFTER YOU SPOKE TO HIM?

A: I HANDED THE PHONE BACK TO HER AND I ASSUME SHE TALKED TO HIM. I DIDN'T LISTEN TO IT.

Q: DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE SPEAKING TO THE DEFENDANT, DO YOU KNOW OR COULD YOU SEE WHERE ARNELLE WAS?

A: YES. SHE WAS STANDING DIRECTLY BEHIND ME AND LISTENING TO MY CONVERSATION. TOM LANGE WAS ALSO INFORMING HER OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED AND SHE BECAME VERY HYSTERICAL -- NOT HYSTERICAL, BUT VERY UPSET.

MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: CERTAINLY.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AFTER YOU HANDED THE PHONE TO ARNELLE, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: THEY KEPT TALKING TO ARNELLE AND I BELIEVE SHE WANTED TO MAKE A PHONE CALL TO A MAN THAT SHE ONLY DESCRIBED AS A.C., WHICH SHE DID, AND THEN I WALKED OUT OF THE KITCHEN.

Q: WHERE DID YOU GO?

A: I JUST WENT OVER TO A DOORWAY THAT LED OUT TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE. IT WAS KIND OF A -- I DON'T KNOW -- PATIO TYPE -- WELL, IT IS OFF THE KITCHEN, LEADS OUT TO THE ROCKINGHAM GATE, TOWARD THE ROCKINGHAM GATE.

Q: AND WHAT WERE YOU DOING OUT THERE?

A: JUST STANDING THERE. TOM LANGE WAS BASICALLY TALKING TO ARNELLE AND THERE WAS NOTHING LEFT FOR ME TO DO, NOTHING FOR ME TO DO AT THAT TIME.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: I WAS APPROACHED BY MARK FUHRMAN, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WHO WALKED UP TO ME AND SAID --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO WHAT HE SAID; HEARSAY.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN TELL YOU SOMETHING?

A: YES, HE DID.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, THIS WOULD GO TO EXPLAIN SUBSEQUENT CONDUCT.

MR. COCHRAN: HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR. TELLS US WHAT HAPPENED.

THE COURT: I THINK YOU CAN HANDLE THIS WITHOUT DOING THAT.

MS. CLARK: OKAY.

Q: AFTER HE TOLD YOU THAT, WHATEVER HE DID, WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: I FOLLOWED HIM.

Q: OKAY. AND BASED ON WHAT HE TOLD YOU, WHY DID YOU FOLLOW HIM?

A: HE WANTED TO SHOW ME SOMETHING.

Q: WHERE DID YOU GO?

A: HE TOOK ME AROUND TO THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE, TO A WALKWAY ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE THAT RAN EAST BEHIND THE RESIDENCE. WE WALKED BACK THERE FOR A CONSIDERABLE DISTANCE UNTIL WE GOT TO A CERTAIN POINT AND THEN HE STOPPED AND HE POINTED OUT AN OBJECT TO ME.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO PUT ON THE ELMO A DIAGRAM THAT HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY MARKED AND I'M GOING TO ASK THAT THIS BE MARKED AS THE "A" VERSION OF THAT.

THE COURT: THIS WOULD BE -- HAVE YOU ALREADY USED THE DIAGRAM?

MS. CLARK: I HAVE, YOUR HONOR. THE DIAGRAM, 66.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 66-A. YOU WANT THE ELMO VERSION?

MS. CLARK: YES, THANK YOU.

THE COURT: MISS ROBERTSON, DO WE HAVE THAT?

THE CLERK: YES.

(PEO'S 66-A FOR ID = DIAGRAM)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT, SIR. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE DIAGRAM THAT WE HAVE PREVIOUSLY MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 66?

A: YES.

Q: AND CAN YOU SEE THE AREA THAT YOU HAVE TOLD US YOU JUST WALKED DOWN TO FOLLOW DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

A: YES.

Q: CAN YOU USE THE POINTER TO POINT THAT OUT FOR US?

A: I CAME OUT OF THE RESIDENCE, WALKED AROUND THE GARAGE, DOWN THIS LONG WALKWAY AND WENT BACK TO HERE, (INDICATING), TO WHERE THERE WAS AN AIR CONDITIONING UNIT, AND THAT IS WHERE HE POINTED OUT AN OBJECT TO ME.

Q: OKAY. WOULD YOU PLEASE, IF YOU COULD, LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR, SIR, AND DIRECT THE POINTER TO SHOW US WHERE YOU EXITED THE RESIDENCE AND WHAT YOUR PATH WAS?

A: OKAY. YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK UP TO WHERE THE BREAKFAST AREA IS.

Q: BREAKFAST AREA?

A: THAT IS WHERE WE EXITED THAT RESIDENCE, (INDICATING).

Q: OKAY. AND THEN YOU WENT OUT, YOU SAID, INTO THE DRIVEWAY?

A: YES.

Q: AND AROUND THE GARAGE?

A: YES.

Q: TELL US WHERE YOU WENT NEXT.

A: DOWN THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GARAGE EASTBOUND ALL THE WAY BACK. CONTINUE WALKING. CONTINUING TO FARTHER.

THE COURT: WELL, WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM HERE BECAUSE OUR --

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: IF I MAY RESIZE A LITTLE.

THE WITNESS: I WALKED STRAIGHTER THAN THAT.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

MS. CLARK: WHY DON'T WE TRY THAT AGAIN. OKAY?

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: SURE.

THE COURT: HOW MANY TIMES DOES HE CRASH INTO THE WALL? RIGHT?

THE WITNESS: JUST THE ONE TIME IN THE GARAGE.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND YOU TELL THE POINTER WHEN TO STOP.

A: RIGHT ABOUT THERE, (INDICATING).

MS. CLARK: IF THIS COULD BE 66-A, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: YES.

MS. CLARK: AND COULD WE HAVE THE INITIALS "R.P." ON THAT.

Q: COULD YOU SIR, DESCRIBE FOR US THE CONDITION OF THE WALKWAY, THAT SOUTH WALKWAY THAT YOUR PATH HAS BEEN TRACED ON?

A: WELL, IT IS A CONCRETE WALKWAY. IT IS QUITE NARROW. IT IS PROBABLY AT SOME POINT ONLY A COUPLE OF FEET WIDE, SOME PLACES SEVERAL MORE FEET WIDE, BUT IT HAS A LOT OF DEBRIS, LEAVES AND THINGS ON THE WALKWAY AS YOU WALK PAST. THERE IS A LOT OF OVERHANGING SHRUBBERY THAT HANGS FROM THE GATE OR THE FENCE THAT IS JUST TO YOUR RIGHT AS YOU ARE WALKING DOWN THAT HANGS DOWN AND SOME OF IT ALMOST TOUCHES THE HOUSE.

Q: AND THE WALKWAY ITSELF, SIR, WAS IT CLEAN AND SWEPT WHEN YOU WALKED DOWN THERE THAT MORNING ON JUNE 13TH?

A: NO, IT WAS NOT.

Q: WHAT WAS THE CONDITION?

A: AS I SAID, IT HAD LEAVES AND TWIGS AND DIRT AND OTHER THINGS THAT WERE BACK IN THERE.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE HERE ANOTHER BOARD THAT HAS --

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MS. CLARK: ASK THAT IT BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 69. 68.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 68, BOARD WITH FOUR PHOTOS, WITHOUT A, B AND C --

MS. CLARK: I DID ASK FOR IT, BUT THEY WILL ALL BE DONE, YOUR HONOR. I'M SORRY.

THE COURT: SORRY. JUST MAKES IT EASIER FOR ALL OF US.

MS. CLARK: IT DOES. IT DOES.

(PEO'S 68 FOR ID = POSTERBOARD W/4 PHOTOS)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ARE YOU LOOKING AT THOSE, SIR?

A: YES, I AM.

MS. CLARK: THEY WILL BE LABELED FROM LEFT TO RIGHT AT THE TOP A AND B, LEFT TO RIGHT AT THE BOTTOM, C AND D.

Q: WHAT IS THE LOCATION SHOWN IN THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS?

A: THIS IS THE WALKWAY TO THE SOUTH OF THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS THAT I PREVIOUSLY STATED THAT I HAD WALKED DOWN.

Q: AND DOES THAT APPEAR TO ACCURATELY DEPICT THE CONDITION THAT YOU FOUND THE WALKWAY IN THAT MORNING?

A: YES, IT DOES.

Q: IN PHOTOGRAPH A, LET'S PUT IT UP ON THE SCREEN.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 2, PLEASE.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: IF YOU WOULD LOOK AT YOUR MONITOR. DO YOU SEE THAT BOX HANGING OUT OF THE WALL THERE?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT IS THAT?

A: IT IS AN AIR CONDITIONING UNIT.

Q: OKAY. AND WAS THAT UNIT FOR KATO KAELIN'S ROOM?

A: I WOULD HAVE TO ASSUME THAT IS FOR KATO KAELIN'S ROOM, YES.

Q: DID YOU EVER GO INTO HIS ROOM?

A: NO.

MS. CLARK: NOW --

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND PHOTOGRAPH B, DID YOU SEE THAT AREA OF THE GROUND, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: IS THAT THE CONDITION IN WHICH YOU FOUND IT ON JUNE THE 13TH?

A: YES.

MS. CLARK: C.

Q: AND PHOTOGRAPH C?

A: YES.

Q: IS THAT THE POSITION AND THE CONDITION IN WHICH YOU FOUND THE GLOVE?

A: THAT IS THE ITEM THAT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN HAD POINTED OUT TO ME, YES.

Q: WHEN WERE YOU -- AS YOU PROCEEDED DOWN THE WALKWAY, SIR, DO YOU RECALL WHETHER THERE WERE ANY GATES THAT YOU -- ANY GATES THAT YOU HAD TO WALK THROUGH?

A: I BELIEVE THERE WAS TWO GATES THAT WE HAD TO WALK THROUGH THAT I REMEMBER. THERE MAY BE MORE.

Q: WERE EITHER ONE OF THEM -- WAS THERE A LOCK ON EITHER ONE OF THEM OR WERE THEY OPENED?

A: THEY WERE OPENED.

Q: WHEN YOU WALKED THROUGH -- GO BACK TO THE DIAGRAM IF YOU DON'T MIND. WHEN YOU WALKED THROUGH THE FIRST GATE, SIR, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE GLOVE ON THE WALKWAY?

A: NO.

Q: WHEN YOU WALKED THROUGH THE SECOND GATE, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE THE GLOVE ON THE WALKWAY?

A: NO.

Q: HOW CLOSE TO THE GLOVE DID YOU GET BEFORE YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE IT?

A: QUITE A WAYS -- I MEAN, VERY CLOSE TO IT. IT WAS -- IT WAS LIGHT OUTSIDE, BUT IT WAS STILL DARK IN THAT AREA BECAUSE OF THE OVERHANGING SHRUBBERY. BASICALLY, I HAD NEVER SEEN THIS ITEM BEFORE, SO I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE TO LOOK.

Q: AND SO HOW CLOSE DID YOU HAVE TO GET TO IT BEFORE YOU ACTUALLY SAW IT?

A: I GOT TO IT WITHIN ABOUT POSSIBLY THREE OR FOUR FEET.

Q: DID YOU TOUCH IT?

A: NO.

Q: AND WHEN YOU GOT TO WITHIN THREE OR FOUR FEET OF IT, WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: I STOOD THERE AND SHINED A FLASHLIGHT ON IT AND OBSERVED WHAT IT APPEARED TO BE AND THEN TOLD MARK -- I SAYS, "LET'S GO BACK TO THE HOUSE AND INFORM VANNATTER AND LANGE OF THIS."

Q: DID YOU THINK THAT WAS SIGNIFICANT, THAT GLOVE?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THAT, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: WELL, IT APPEARED TO BE SOME -- I'M SORRY.

MR. COCHRAN: NONRESPONSIVE.

THE COURT: YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION YES OR NO. DID IT APPEAR TO YOU TO BE SIGNIFICANT?

THE WITNESS: YES.

THE COURT: NEXT QUESTION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND WHY WAS IT SIGNIFICANT TO YOU?

A: IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS ALSO THE SAME TYPE OF GLOVE THAT WE HAD SEEN AT THE BUNDY LOCATION.

Q: DID YOU EVER GO BACK FARTHER THAN THAT GLOVE TO SEE WHAT WAS BEHIND THE GUEST UNITS IN THAT HOUSE?

A: NO.

Q: AFTER YOU GOT WITHIN THREE TO FOUR FEET OF THE GLOVE, WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: WALKED AROUND -- TURNED AROUND AND WENT BACK INTO THE HOUSE.

Q: AND HOW DID YOU ENTER THE HOUSE?

A: THROUGH THE SAME DOOR I HAD EXITED.

Q: THAT BREAKFAST AREA?

A: YES.

Q: DID YOU GIVE SOME INSTRUCTION TO MARK FUHRMAN?

A: HE CAME WITH ME.

Q: RIGHT. AFTER SEEING THE GLOVE, DID YOU GIVE HIM SOME INSTRUCTION?

A: I GAVE HIM SOME INSTRUCTIONS THAT WE WERE TO NOTIFY VANNATTER AND LANGE OF WHAT HE HAD FOUND AND WHAT HE HAD SHOWED ME.

Q: AND SO THEN DID BOTH YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN GO BACK INTO THE HOUSE?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN I BELIEVE WALKED UP TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER FIRST AND TOLD HIM WHAT HE HAD BASICALLY TOLD ME, AND THEN VANNATTER -- I MEAN, YEAH, VANNATTER AND FUHRMAN THEN LEFT AND WENT TO THE SAME -- LOOKED LIKE THEY WERE GOING TO GO TO THE SAME LOCATION THAT I HAD, BUT I DID NOT GO WITH THEM.

Q: WHERE DID YOU GO?

A: STAYED WHERE I WAS AT, RIGHT BY THE KITCHEN DOOR, KITCHEN BREAKFAST DOOR.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: I STAYED THERE. A SHORT TIME LATER VANNATTER AND FUHRMAN CAME BACK AND THEY HAD A CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE LANGE AND THEN LANGE AND FUHRMAN TOOK OFF THE SAME DIRECTION THAT WE HAD GONE BEFORE, BUT I DIDN'T GO WITH THEM AGAIN.

Q: DID YOU STAY IN FRONT WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

A: I DON'T KNOW IF VANNATTER WAS WITH ME THE WHOLE TIME. I WAS JUST BASICALLY STANDING AROUND, YOU KNOW, TALKING TO PEOPLE AT DIFFERENT TIMES, BUT NOT DOING ANYTHING.

Q: WHAT WERE YOU -- WHERE WERE YOU STANDING AROUND IN? WHAT AREA?

A: IN THAT BREAKFAST AREA, THE FRONT PART OF THE HOUSE, FRONT PART OF THE RESIDENCE.

Q: OKAY.

A: THAT BREAKFAST AREA.

Q: NOW, THIS WAS NOT YOUR CASE ANY MORE; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: NOT MY CASE AT ALL.

Q: SO WHY WERE YOU STILL THERE?

A: BECAUSE MY PARTNER, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WAS STILL SHOWING VANNATTER AND LANGE CERTAIN ITEMS THAT HE HAD FOUND AND WE HAD NOT LEFT THE LOCATION YET FROM WHEN WE ARRIVED.

Q: NOW, LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING, SIR. YOU HAD SAID EARLIER THAT THE WAY YOU NEED TO MAKE NOTIFICATION IS IN PERSON. THAT IS THE WAY THAT IS PREFERRED; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: IF IT IS PRACTICAL YOU DO IT IN PERSON, YES.

Q: BUT YOU DIDN'T WIND UP DOING IT THAT WAY, DID YOU?

A: NO, I DIDN'T.

Q: WHY NOT?

A: BECAUSE WE FOUND SOMEONE AT THE RESIDENCE THAT PUT US IN TOUCH WITH MR. SIMPSON. WE HAD ALREADY MADE CONTACT WITH MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY, ARNELLE SIMPSON. IT WAS KIND OF A MUTE POINT TO SIT THERE AND SAY, NO, I'M NOT GOING TO TELL YOU ANYTHING AND LEAVE THE RESIDENCE. SO WE GOT AHOLD OF MR. SIMPSON AND INFORMED HIM OVER THE TELEPHONE, WHICH WASN'T THE EXACT WAY THAT WE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE DONE IT, BUT THAT IS THE WAY THE SITUATION PRESENTED ITSELF.

Q: WHAT DO YOU MEAN THAT IS THE WAY THE SITUATION PRESENTED ITSELF? WERE YOU CONCERNED THAT THE MEDIA WAS GOING TO FIND OUT BEFORE HIM?

MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY. LET ME WITHDRAW THAT.

Q: WHAT WERE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT? WHY DID YOU TELL HIM ON THE TELEPHONE?

A: AS I SAID, WHEN WE FIRST -- WHEN WE GOT THERE WE HAD ALREADY CONTACTED TWO PEOPLE AT THAT RESIDENCE. WE ALREADY TOLD THEM WE HAD AN EMERGENCY, WE WERE TRYING TO LOOK FOR HIM. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY, VERY INSENSITIVE TO JUST GO, I'M SORRY, HE IS NOT HERE, WE ARE GOING TO LEAVE. PEOPLE CAN FIND OUT LATER WHY WE WERE HERE. SHE SAID SHE COULD GET AHOLD OF HER FATHER, SO WE GOT AHOLD OF THE FATHER AND GAVE HIM THE INFORMATION THAT WE HAD TO GIVE HIM. NOT THAT WE WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE GIVEN IT TO HIM IN PERSON HAD HE BEEN THERE, BUT HE WASN'T THERE IN PERSON, SO WE USED THE TELEPHONE.

Q: DURING YOUR PHONE CALL TO MR. SIMPSON CAN YOU TELL US WHERE DETECTIVE VANNATTER WAS, DID YOU KNOW?

A: NO, I DON'T.

Q: DID YOU EVER INFORM DETECTIVE VANNATTER OF WHAT CATHY RANDA TOLD YOU ABOUT THE WHEREABOUTS OF MR. SIMPSON?

A: I DON'T KNOW IF I TOLD VANNATTER. I TOLD LANGE BECAUSE LANGE WAS IN THE KITCHEN WITH ME WITH ARNELLE.

Q: HE WAS IN YOUR IMMEDIATE VICINITY?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, AFTER DETECTIVE LANGE CAME BACK WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?

A: THEY ASKED MARK FUHRMAN AND I TO GO BACK -- TOM LANGE DID, ASKED MARK FUHRMAN AND I TO GO BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION.

Q: AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE? WHAT WERE YOU GOING TO DO?

A: TOM HAD ASKED MARK TO GO BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION AND LOOK AT THE GLOVE AND THE BUNDY LOCATION AND GET ANOTHER LOOK AT IT AND SEE IF IT WAS IN FACT A MATCH TO THE ONE THAT WE HAD UP AT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION.

Q: AND THEN WHAT HAPPENED?

A: MARK FUHRMAN AND I LEFT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION AND DROVE BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION.

Q: SO YOU LEFT -- YOU WENT BACK IN YOUR CAR TOGETHER?

A: YES.

Q: WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION, DID YOU SEE WHERE -- WHERE DID YOU GO? WHAT DID YOU DO?

A: WE PARKED OUR CAR. I SAW MARK FUHRMAN WALK OVER TO THE BUNDY LOCATION. HE WAS GOING TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THE GLOVE. AND I SAW LIEUTENANT SPANGLER AND CAPTAIN DIAL AND SOME OTHER COMMAND STAFF STANDING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE INTERSECTION AND THEY WERE LOOKING AT ME AND I WALKED OVER TO THEM TO GIVE THEM INFORMATION THAT I HAD RECEIVED OR WHAT HAD BEEN DONE IN THE LAST SO MANY -- IN THE LAST HOUR.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU GOT BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

A: IT WAS ABOUT 6:30.

Q: YOU SAW HIM WALK OVER TOWARD THE LOCATION?

A: HE WALKED OVER TO THE CRIME SCENE LOCATION AND I WALKED OVER TO LIEUTENANT SPANGLER AND CAPTAIN DIAL TO INFORM THEM OF WHAT HAD BEEN TAKING PLACE, AND ALSO JOHN ROGERS.

Q: NOW, WAS THE CRIME SCENE STILL TAPED OFF?

A: YES.

Q: AND DID YOU SEE ANYONE WALKING ON THE FRONT WALKWAY THAT LEADS FROM THE SIDEWALK OF BUNDY TO THE FRONT STEPS OF THE CONDO?

A: NO, THERE WAS NO ONE WALKING AROUND.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, COULD WE CUT THE FEED, PLEASE?

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 55.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE PHOTOGRAPHERS ARE DIRECTED NOT TO ATTEMPT TO TAKE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE SCREEN.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU TELL US WHO THAT IS POINTING TO THE EVIDENCE IN THAT PICTURE, SIR?

A: THAT IS DETECTIVE MARK FUHRMAN.

Q: IS THAT WHAT HE WAS WEARING ALL NIGHT THAT NIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: THAT IS HOW HE WAS DRESSED?

A: YES.

Q: FROM THE TIME YOU ARRIVED AT BUNDY AT 2:10 A.M.?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, SAME QUESTIONS REGARDING MARK FUHRMAN ABOUT HIM NOT HAVING ANY JACKET ON.

THE COURT: OVERRULED, BECAUSE THERE WAS SOME OTHER TESTIMONY REGARDING CLOTHING IN THE INTERIM.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WAS ANSWER THAT, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: IS THAT HOW HE WAS DRESSED WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT 2:10 A.M.?

A: YES.

Q: AND THE LOCATION THAT HE IS POINTING TO, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT IS HE POINTING TO, SIR?

A: HE IS POINTING TO THE LOCATION WHERE THE GLOVE IS.

Q: AND IS THAT THE DIRECTION IN WHICH YOU SAW HIM LEAVING WHEN YOU TALKED TO LIEUTENANT SPANGLER?

A: YES. I DID NOT SEE THIS PHOTOGRAPH TAKEN.

THE COURT: THIS IS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT?

MS. CLARK: 55.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 55.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. AND AT SOME POINT WHILE YOU WERE THERE, AFTER YOU GOT TO BUNDY, DID ANOTHER DETECTIVE ARRIVE?

A: YES, TOM LANGE RETURNED.

Q: HOW LONG AFTER YOU GOT BACK TO BUNDY DID HE ARRIVE?

A: PROBABLY TEN OR FIFTEEN MINUTES.

Q: AND WHAT DID HE DO?

A: HE BEGAN TO DO HIS CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION OF THE BUNDY LOCATION.

Q: DID HE MAKE SOME REQUEST OF YOU, SIR?

A: YES, HE DID.

Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT REQUEST?

A: HE ASKED ME TO MAKE THE FIRST PHONE CALL TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE, TO GIVE THEM THE FIRST CALL.

Q: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, THE FIRST CALL?

A: IT IS A SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE WORKED WITH THE CORONER'S OFFICE WHERE THE FIRST CALL INFORMS THEM BASICALLY WHAT WE HAVE. IT IS NOT A CALL TO COME OUT TO THE LOCATION; IT IS JUST TO INFORM THEM OF WHAT WE HAVE SO THE CORONER'S OFFICE CAN MAKE PREPARATIONS THAT THEIR TRUCK OR ONE OF THEIR TECHNICIANS IS GOING TO BE NEEDED OVER IN THE WEST LOS ANGELES AREA SO THEY CAN HAVE MORE CONTROL OVER THEIR PERSONNEL TIMEWISE.

Q: I THINK YOU INDICATED EARLIER, SIR, THAT AROUND 3:00 A.M. YOU WANTED TO CALL THE CORONER BUT LIEUTENANT SPANGLER TOLD YOU NOT TO?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, THIS HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE ALSO.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO US WHY YOU WANTED TO MAKE THE FIRST CALL WHEN YOU ALREADY KNEW THE CASE WAS GOING OVER TO ANOTHER SET OF DETECTIVES AND NOT YOURSELF?

A: WELL, I WASN'T GOING TO REQUEST THE CORNER AT THE LOCATION. I WAS JUST GOING TO MAKE THE FIRST CALL NOTIFICATION OF THE CORONER INFORMING THEM WHAT WE HAD, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I DID AT 6:50. IT WAS STILL THE FIRST CALL.

Q: SO THEY WOULD BE READY WHEN THE FINAL DETECTIVE MADE THE CALL?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU MADE THE FIRST CALL NOTIFICATION FOR THEM TO PREPARE AT 6:50?

A: YES.

Q: WAS THERE A TRANSCRIPT PREPARED OF YOUR DISCUSSION WITH THE CORONER'S OFFICE THAT MORNING?

A: I BELIEVE SO.

Q: AND HAVE YOU SEEN THAT?

A: YES.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 1, COUNSEL ONLY.

MS. CLARK: THIS IS THE FIRST PAGE OF THE TRANSCRIPT, YOUR HONOR, PREPARED -- I BELIEVE A PORTION OF THIS WAS SHOWN TO THE JURY DURING MR. COCHRAN'S OPENING STATEMENT. I WOULD ASK THAT THIS PAGE BE MARKED PEOPLE'S 69.

THE COURT: 69.

(PEO'S 69 FOR ID = 1-PG TRANSCRIPT)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 1, PLEASE.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT YOU SEE THERE?

A: YES.

Q: IS THAT -- DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE THE FIRST PAGE OF THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH THE CORONER'S OFFICE ON THE MORNING OF JUNE THE 13TH?

A: YES.

Q: IN THE VERY FIRST PASSAGE WHERE YOU ARE SPEAKING, SIR, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT PASSAGE WHERE YOU TELL THEM YOU HAVE A DOUBLE HOMICIDE?

A: YES.

Q: AND IN THAT FIRST PASSAGE WHAT -- DO YOU RECALL HAVING THAT CONVERSATION?

A: YES, I DO.

Q: WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO CONVEY TO THEM IN THAT FIRST RESPONSE -- THAT FIRST --

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. THAT SPEAKS FOR HIMSELF. NOT WHAT HE IS TRYING TO CONVEY. WE HAVE THE WORDS UP THERE WITH A TAPE.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

MS. CLARK: MAY WE APPROACH? THIS IS FOUNDATIONAL, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. AREN'T WE SORT OF LEAPING AHEAD, THOUGH? AREN'T YOU GOING TO HAVE HIM GO THROUGH THE CONVERSATION AND SAY DID YOU SAY THIS? YES. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? WHAT IS FIRST ROLL? WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE PRESS? WHAT ARE ANTS? I MEAN, AREN'T WE SORT OF AHEAD OF OURSELVES HERE?

MS. CLARK: WHAT DO YOU MEAN "AHEAD OF OURSELVES"?

THE COURT: YOU HAVEN'T GONE THROUGH THE CONVERSATION WITH THE DETECTIVE YET, SO TO PUT UP A TRANSCRIPT AND SAY WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THIS, I MEAN, THAT IS A VERY VAGUE QUESTION. IT DOESN'T GO TO ANY SPECIFICS, WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THIS? I MEAN, THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE ASKED.

MS. CLARK: YEAH.

THE COURT: DON'T WE NEED TO GO THROUGH THE CONVERSATION? IF THERE IS SOMETHING THAT IS AMBIGUOUS OR SUBJECT TO INTERPRETATION, THEN DON'T WE HAVE TO HAVE A QUESTION.

MS. CLARK: IT WOULD PROBABLY BE A VERY GOOD IDEA.

MR. COCHRAN: SPEAKS FOR ITSELF, YOUR HONOR.

MS. CLARK: I WANT THIS TO BE DONE WITH. AS I INDICATED TO THE COURT EARLIER, I AM TRYING TO SPEED IT UP. YOU ARE RIGHT.

THE COURT: THE PROBLEM IS, YOU KNOW, NOT GOING BY THE RULES HERE. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

MR. COCHRAN: SURE.

THE COURT: ISN'T THAT THE ISSUE?

MS. CLARK: YES, IT IS.

MR. COCHRAN: SHE WANTS THIS TO BE DONE WITH, YOUR HONOR, SHE CAN JUST SAY SIMPLY I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.

MS. CLARK: EXCEPT THAT THE PEOPLE NEED TO PROVE THEIR CASE AND PUT ON EVIDENCE AS MUCH AS I KNOW COUNSEL DOESN'T WANT TO DO THAT.

THE COURT: OKAY.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MISS CLARK, DO YOU WANT TO WITHDRAW THE QUESTION?

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

THE COURT: WITHDRAW THE QUESTION?

MS. CLARK: I WITHDRAW THE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PROCEED.

MS. CLARK: I AM GOING TO TRY TO ASK A BETTER ONE. COULD WE -- ALL RIGHT.

Q: LET'S LOOK AT THAT FIRST PARAGRAPH, SIR.

A: YES.

Q: YOU HAVE READ IT?

A: YES.

Q: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE WORDS IN THAT PARAGRAPH?

A: YES.

Q: IS THAT WHAT YOU SAID?

A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

Q: "I GOT A DOUBLE HOMICIDE THAT WE WANT TO LET YOU KNOW ABOUT. IT IS GOING TO BE -- THE PRESS IS GOING TO BE CRAWLING ON US LIKE ANTS WHEN THEY FIND OUT WHAT IS GOING ON." WERE THEY YOUR WORDS?

A: YES. YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE IT VERY HARD FOR ME TO GO TO THE PRESS AGAIN, AREN'T YOU?

THE COURT: KIND BY CALLING THEM ANTS.

MS. CLARK: THEY HAVE BEEN CALLED WORSE. JACKALS, I THINK.

THE WITNESS: I WILL STAY WITH ANTS.

MS. CLARK: WE WILL STAY WITH ANTS.

Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU MEANT BY THAT, SIR?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I THINK THE WORDS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. WE ALL UNDERSTAND ENGLISH.

THE COURT: I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO INTERPRET THIS LINE.

MS. CLARK: BUT I DO -- LET'S GO TO THE NEXT ONE.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT.

Q: DO YOU RECOGNIZE -- FIRST READ THAT PARAGRAPH TO YOURSELF, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THOSE WORDS?

MR. COCHRAN: ONE PROBLEM. THE EXHIBIT SHOULD NOT HAVE UNDERLINING ON THEM WHICH COUNSEL HAS ON THIS ONE.

THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE AN UNMARKED COPY?

MS. CLARK: LET ME LOOK, YOUR HONOR.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MS. CLARK: I THINK I HAVE ANOTHER ONE, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S TAKE THAT ONE DOWN, MR. FAIRTLOUGH.

MS. CLARK: THESE ARE THE ONLY ONES WE HAVE, YOUR HONOR? THIS IS A VERY FAINT LINE.

MR. COCHRAN: THERE ARE LINES THROUGH IT, YOUR HONOR. FAINT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

MS. CLARK: THAT IS THE WAY IT CAME TO US, YOUR HONOR. THERE IS NOTHING IMPROPER BY A LINE.

THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. YOU DON'T HAVE A CLEAN COPY OF THAT DOCUMENT?

MS. CLARK: THIS IS THE WAY WE GOT THEM.

MR. COCHRAN: NO, YOUR HONOR. LET ME -- THAT IS NOT TRUE. WE HAVE A CLEAN COPY.

THE COURT: HOLD ON. HOLD ON.

MR. COCHRAN: I WILL BE GLAD TO GIVE HER A CLEAN COPY.

MS. CLARK: IT IS TRUE THAT THESE ARE THE ONLY ONES WE HAVE, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. COUNSEL, WHEN I SAY, "WAIT," WAIT MEANS STOP. ALL RIGHT. HOW MANY PAGES IS THAT?

MR. COCHRAN: ALTOGETHER, YOUR HONOR -- THE ENTIRE TRANSCRIPT, YOUR HONOR, IS SEVEN WITH A MESSAGE, EIGHT PAGES ALTOGETHER.

THE COURT: MISS CLARK, HOW MUCH OF THIS TRANSCRIPT ARE YOU PREPARING TO PROCEED WITH?

MS. CLARK: I BELIEVE IT IS ONLY THE FIRST PAGE.

THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, DO YOU --

MS. CLARK: MAY I ASK A FAVOR, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: I WAS GOING TO ASK MY CLERK TO MAKE A CLEAN PHOTOCOPY FOR BOTH SIDES.

THE COURT: SHE CAN HAVE THAT.

MR. COCHRAN: SHE CAN HAVE THAT, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: WE DON'T NEED THE COMMENTS ON EITHER SIDE.

MS. CLARK: WHAT I ASK, YOUR HONOR, IS COULD WE PASS THESE OUT TO THE JURY, THIS PAGE?

THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE THE TAPE TO PLAY?

MS. CLARK: THE TAPE?

THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE THE TAPE OF THIS CONVERSATION?

MS. CLARK: I DON'T HAVE AN AUDIO TAPE, BUT IF WE COULD PASS THE PAGE OUT TO THE JURY.

THE COURT: I MEAN, THIS IS WHY WE HAVE THIS SYSTEM HERE.

MS. CLARK: YOU DON'T WANT --

THE COURT: LET'S USE THE ELMO. IF THE JURORS TELL ME THEY CAN'T READ IT --

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 1, PLEASE.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. 1492, CAN YOU READ THAT? JUROR 1492: YES.

THE COURT: THANK YOU.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. IN THIS SECOND PARAGRAPH YOU INDICATED: "THIS IS THE FIRST CALL AND WE GOT A LOT OF WORK TO DO YET, BUT WE NEED TO GET YOU GUYS ROLLING OUT HERE SO WE CAN GET THESE BODIES, WHICH ARE VISIBLE FROM THE STREET, OUT HERE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE."

A: YES.

Q: DO YOU RECALL SAYING THAT?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, FIRST OF ALL, TELL US WHAT YOU MEAN -- WHEN YOU SAY "THIS IS THE FIRST CALL," WHAT DOES THAT?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, WE HAVE ALREADY COVERED THIS. SHE HAS BEEN OVER THIS ALREADY, WHAT THE FIRST CALL IS, AND THIS DOCUMENTS SPEAKS FOR ITSELF, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: OVERRULED. IS THIS FIRST CALL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?

THE WITNESS: YES, SIR.

THE COURT: NEXT QUESTION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: YOU INDICATE YOU HAVE GOT A LOT OF WORK TO DO YET?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

A: WELL, TOM LANGE HAD JUST RETURNED TO THAT CRIME SCENE AND AS OF THAT TIME VERY, VERY LITTLE CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION HAD BEEN DONE. HE HADN'T EVEN BEGUN TO REALLY EVALUATE THE CRIME SCENE THAT HE HAD, SO HE DID HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO YET.

Q: WHAT YOU WERE DESCRIBING BEFORE, EARLIER IN YOUR TESTIMONY, WHEN YOU SAID YOU HAVE TO GET WORK DONE BEFORE YOU GET THE CORONER OUT?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. THIS IS LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECALL REFERRING TO THAT SITUATION EARLIER IN YOUR TESTIMONY?

A: YES.

Q: AND IS THAT WHAT YOU WERE REFERRING TO HERE?

A: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: YES.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHEN YOU SAID, "THESE BODIES WHICH ARE VISIBLE FROM THE STREET," WERE YOU MAKING A COMMENT ABOUT THE VISIBILITY AT THAT TIME OF DAY, SIR?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THIS.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. WHAT WERE YOU TRYING TO CONVEY WITH RESPECT TO THAT?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR -- I THINK THAT IS IMPROPER, YOUR HONOR, WHAT HE IS TRYING TO CONVEY. THE WORDS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.

THE COURT: HOLD ON. WHAT PROBLEM IS CREATED BY BODIES BEING VISIBLE TO THE STREET?

THE WITNESS: THEY ARE VIEWED TO THE PUBLIC, THE PUBLIC CAN SEE THEM, WE WOULD JUST AS SOON GET THEM, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, OUT OF THE STREET.

THE COURT: COMMON DECENCY?

THE WITNESS: COMMON DECENSY TO THE FAMILIES, TO THE VICTIM.

THE COURT: NEXT QUESTION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND THEY WERE -- THEY WERE VISIBLE AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME, SIR?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: TO YOU?

A: YES.

Q: WAS IT LIGHT OUT BY THEN?

A: YES.

Q: NOW, WHEN YOU SAY "WE," WHO ARE YOU REFERRING TO?

A: I WAS MAKING THIS PHONE CALL FOR TOM LANGE, SO I WAS REFERRING TO "WE" AS IN TOM AND I.

Q: AND YOU INDICATED "AS SOON AS POSSIBLE"?

A: WELL, THAT IS WHY WE WERE MAKING THE FIRST CALL, TO GET THEM READY TO GO. WE WOULD MAKE OUR SECOND CALL WHEN WE WANTED THEM AND THEY WOULD BE READY TO DO IT AND WE COULD GET IT TAKEN CARE OF AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

MS. CLARK: NEXT PARAGRAPH.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, IN THIS PARAGRAPH, IF YOU CAN READ IT, YOU STATED, "WE ARE KIND -- WE KIND OF" --

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, DOES SHE HAVE TO READ THIS? WE CAN ALL READ THIS. YOUR HONOR, IT IS IMPROPER. IT IS NOT A QUESTION.

THE COURT: OVERRULED, COUNSEL.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: "KIND OF NOT FOLLOWING PROCEDURE BUT WE ARE KIND OF ASKING A FAVOR AND YOU KNOW KIND OF WORK A LITTLE BIT ON THIS ONE."

A: YES.

Q: WHAT PROCEDURE ARE YOU REFERRING TO?

A: WELL, I'M REFERRING TO A PROCEDURE OR POLICY OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT WHERE IF I'M THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER OR THE SENIOR OFFICER AT A SCENE OF A MAJOR UNUSUAL OCCURRENCE OR A MAJOR NEWS MEDIA EVENT, IT IS MY OBLIGATION TO NOTIFY THE PRESS RELATIONS OFFICER OR THE MEDIA ABOUT THE SITUATION THAT IS GOING ON, AND I CHOSE NOT TO DO THAT.

Q: AND IS THERE SOMETHING IN YOUR MANUAL ACTUALLY THAT SAYS YOU ARE REQUIRED OR THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER IS REQUIRED TO NOTIFY THE MEDIA WHEN A HIGH-PROFILE CASE OCCURS?

A: IT TALKS ABOUT I BELIEVE THE SENIOR OFFICER AT THE SCENE AND AT THE TIME I WAS MAKING THE PHONE CALL I WAS THE SENIOR OFFICER AT THE SCENE FROM WEST L.A.

Q: DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT MANUAL? DID YOU BRING THAT WITH YOU, SIR?

A: YES, I DO.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOU COULD LOCATE IT IN THIS MANUAL?

A: YES.

Q: WILL YOU PLEASE DO THAT.

THE COURT: THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT MISS CLARK IS HANDING --

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU. THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT I AM HANDING HIM A BOOK THAT STATES ON THE FRONT OF IT "1994/1995, MANUAL OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT."

Q: IS THIS THE MANUAL YOU WERE REFERRING TO, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: GO AHEAD AND LOCATE THAT FOR US, IF YOU WOULD.

A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)

THE COURT: AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, WHAT SECTION ARE YOU MAKING REFERENCE TO?

THE WITNESS: I'M LOOKING IN VOLUME 1, 420.40.

THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT?

MR. COCHRAN: NO. MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: DO YOU WANT TO HAVE THE CLERK MAKE A PHOTOCOPY OF THAT, COUNSEL?

MS. CLARK: YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, WHY DON'T YOU JUST HAND THAT TO ME, PLEASE.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

MS. CLARK: THE PART THAT IS FLAGGED, YOUR HONOR.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: MADAM COURT REPORTER, WOULD THIS BE A GOOD MOMENT TO SWITCH? REPORTER OLSON: SURE.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: MISS MOXHAM, ARE YOU READY?

THE COURT REPORTER: YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: COUNSEL, YOU HAVE TO GIVE A COPY TO THE PEOPLE.

MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. YOUR HONOR, IF I MIGHT, I WOULD LIKE TO PUT THIS ON THE SCREEN.

THE COURT: ON THE ELMO?

MS. CLARK: ON THE ELMO.

THE COURT: FINE.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. YOU INDICATED THAT IN YOUR CONVERSATION WITH THE CORONER, THERE WAS --

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THIS. SHE'S ABOUT TO ASK AN IMPROPER QUESTION.

MS. CLARK: IT'S A FOUNDATIONAL.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: THAT YOU WERE KIND OF NOT FOLLOWING THE PROCEDURE. NOW, YOU WANT TO EXPLAIN TO US THE PROCEDURE YOU WERE REFERRING TO?

A: YOU WANT ME TO READ IT?

Q: SURE.

A: "RESPONSIBILITY FOR RELEASE OF INFORMATION. "WHEN AN EVENT BEING INVESTIGATED IS SUCH A SPECTACULAR OR UNUSUAL NATURE AS TO STIMULATE GENERAL COMMUNITY INTEREST, THE NEWS MEDIA WILL BE NOTIFIED. NORMALLY IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF AN AREA OR DIVISION COMMANDING OFFICER OR THE SENIOR OFFICER AT THE SCENE TO MAKE SUCH NOTIFICATIONS. HOWEVER, WHEN THERE IS AN EVENT OF MAJOR PROPORTIONS, THE PRESS RELATIONS OFFICER WILL ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE RELEASE OF INFORMATION."

Q: OKAY. AND THAT WAS THE PROCEDURE YOU WERE REFERRING TO IN YOUR CONVERSATION WITH THE CORONER THAT MORNING?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. THAT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. I OBJECT.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: YES.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DID YOU WANT TO MARK THAT PORTION AS A PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT, PEOPLE'S 70?

MS. CLARK: I SHOULD. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. (PEO'S 70 FOR ID = REL. OF INFO. PROC.)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. THEN WHAT DID YOU MEAN YOU WERE KIND OF ASKING A FAVOR AND KIND OF WORK A LITTLE BIT ON THIS ONE?

A: WE WERE TRYING TO KEEP THIS FROM BECOMING A NEWS MEDIA EVENT FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. SO WE WERE ASKING THE CORONER'S OFFICE TO GO ALONG WITH US AND NOT MAKE ANY NOTIFICATIONS THEMSELVES TO THE NEWS MEDIA.

Q: WAS IT THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE NOTIFICATION TO THE NEWS MEDIA?

A: I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEIR POLICY IS OR WHAT THEIR PROCEDURES ARE I WAS JUST ASKING FOR THEIR COOPERATION.

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. HE HAS NO IDEA.

THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE ANSWER WILL STAND.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: I'M SORRY. I COULDN'T HEAR THE LAST PART OF THE ANSWER. YOU WERE WHAT?

A: I WAS JUST ASKING THEM TO COOPERATE WITH OUR -- WITH MY REQUEST. I DID NOT KNOW WHAT THEIR PROCEDURES WERE, IF THEY HAD TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION THEMSELVES. I WAS ASKING THEM TO COOPERATE WAS WHAT I WAS ASKING THEM TO DO.

Q: UNDER ORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES, WHAT SHOULD YOU HAVE DONE AS -- IN THIS SITUATION, YOU INDICATED TO US THAT YOU CALLED THE CORONER, YOU SAID, "LOOK, I DON'T WANT TO CALL THE MEDIA, THEY'RE GOING TO BE ALL OVER US," AND SO YOU DIDN'T, YOU DIDN'T NOTIFY THE MEDIA. UNDER ORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE IF YOU WERE TO FOLLOW THE PROCEDURE THAT YOU WERE TRYING NOT TO FOLLOW HERE?

A: YOU'RE TRYING TO GET ME IN TROUBLE, AREN'T YOU? WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE --

MR. COCHRAN: MOVE TO STRIKE THAT LAST PART.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE WAS, I SHOULD HAVE MADE A NOTIFICATION TO DETECTIVE HEADQUARTERS, WHICH IS OPEN 24 HOURS A DAY, INFORM THEM OF THE EVENT THAT WE HAD, THE POSSIBLE NEWS MEDIA EVENT THIS WOULD CREATE AND THEY IN TURN WOULD HAVE CALLED PRESS RELATIONS PEOPLE AT HOME. PRESS RELATIONS PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BEEN NOTIFIED, THEY WOULD HAVE COME OUT TO THE SCENE AND THEY WOULD HAVE HANDLED THE PRESS. THAT'S WHAT I SHOULD HAVE DONE.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, THE PRESS RELATIONS OFFICER, THAT WAS DEPUTY CHIEF DAVE GASCON?

A: AT THAT TIME, YES.

Q: HE'S DEPUTY CHIEF NOW. HE WASN'T THEN.

A: HE WAS COMMANDER THEN.

Q: AND WOULD IT HAVE BEEN HIS RESPONSIBILITY TO NOTIFY THE PRESS OF THE -- OF THIS CASE?

A: I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HIS RESPONSIBILITIES AS PRESS RELATIONS WOULD HAVE BEEN AND WHO HE WOULD HAVE NOTIFIED AND WHEN.

Q: WHAT WAS YOUR CONCERN THEN? WHY DIDN'T YOU WANT TO CALL HIM?

A: WELL, I DIDN'T WANT TO NOT CALL HIM ONLY. I JUST DID NOT WANT THE PRESS NOTIFIED. IT WAS A -- SEVERAL ITEMS THAT HAD COME INTO PLAY AT THAT TIME. AS THE WEST L.A. COORDINATOR OF THE HOMICIDE UNIT, I DON'T ACTUALLY WORK THE HOMICIDES. I'M A PERIPHERAL PERSON OUT THERE. I HAVE SERGEANTS WALKING UP TO ME AND LIEUTENANTS WALKING UP TO ME GOING, "HOW LONG ARE YOU GOING TO KEEP MY PEOPLE HERE? WE HAVE OTHER CALLS FOR SERVICE. THERE'S OTHER PEOPLE THAT NEED THE POLICE OUT HERE." THE LONGER I KEPT THAT UNIT THERE, THE LESS TIME THEY WOULD BE OUT ON DOING PATROL FUNCTIONS. THE CHANGE OF WATCH WAS COMING DOWN AT 7:00 O'CLOCK, WHICH MEANT MORNING WATCH WAS JUST GETTING RELIEVED OF DUTY AND DAY WATCH WAS COMING TO WORK. ALL THE CARS THAT WERE AT WEST L.A. OUT IN THE FIELD AT THE CRIME SCENE NEEDED TO GO BACK TO WEST LOS ANGELES TO BE GIVEN TO THE DAY WATCH UNIT SO THE DAY WATCH UNITS COULD COME TO WORK. SO I HAD A CHANGE OF WATCH GOING ON.

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION TO THIS NARRATIVE. I OBJECT.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. NEXT QUESTION.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: SO -- SO WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM THEN; A MANPOWER PROBLEM?

MR. COCHRAN: OBJECTION. LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WAS THE PROBLEM THAT YOU WERE CONCERNED ABOUT?

A: I WAS CONCERNED OF A RESOURCE PROBLEM AT TWO DIFFERENT CRIME SCENES IN THE SAME DIVISION WITH MANPOWER TO ADEQUATELY PROTECT BOTH CRIME SCENES AND ALSO DO WHATEVER OTHER FUNCTIONS WEST LOS ANGELES COMMUNITY NEEDED.

Q: AND HOW WOULD THE PRESS PRESENCE HAVE COMPLICATED THAT?

A: WE WOULD HAVE NEEDED MORE PRESS OR MORE POLICE OFFICERS TO CORNER OFF THE AREAS ONCE THE PRESS GOT THERE AS WE ALL FOUND OUT LATER ON.

Q: WHAT HAPPENED LATER ON?

A: WE HAD SEVERAL MEDIA PERSONNEL SHOW UP AND CRAWLING AROUND US.

Q: AND WHEN WAS THAT IN TERMS OF TIME? CAN YOU RECALL?

A: UH, THE PRESS STARTED SHOWING UP I BELIEVE 7:30, 8:00 O'CLOCK IS WHEN THEY STARTED SHOWING UP AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, IT WAS JUST MASSIVE AFTER THAT.

Q: UH-HUH. AND IT JUST CONTINUED TO BUILD AFTER ABOUT 8:00 O'CLOCK?

MR. COCHRAN: LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AFTER 8:00 O'CLOCK -- THE FIRST PRESS YOU THOUGHT CAME ABOUT WHAT TIME?

A: WELL, I WASN'T PAYING EXACTLY ATTENTION TO IT. I WOULD SAY 7:30, 8:00 O'CLOCK, MAYBE A LITTLE LATER.

Q: AFTER THE FIRST PRESS ARRIVED, DID ANY MORE PRESS ARRIVE?

A: YES.

Q: DID THEY CONTINUE TO ARRIVE THROUGHOUT THE MORNING?

A: YES.

Q: AND THE AFTERNOON?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE THE BUNDY SCENE?

A: I LEFT THE BUNDY SCENE SEVERAL TIMES. I LEFT, WENT TO OTHER LOCATIONS AND CAME BACK.

Q: AND EVERY TIME YOU CAME BACK TO BUNDY, HAD THE PRESS DECREASED?

A: NO. IT HAD INCREASED.

Q: AND DID IT CONTINUE TO DO SO DURING THE DAY?

A: CONTINUED TO INCREASE AT BOTH LOCATIONS THROUGHOUT THE DAY.

Q: SO YOU MADE YOUR FIRST NOTIFICATION AT 6:50?

A: YES.

Q: DID YOU SUBSEQUENTLY MAKE A SECOND CALL TO GET THE CORONER OUT TO THE SCENE?

A: YES.

Q: AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME THAT WAS?

A: I DON'T RECALL THE SECOND TIME THAT I MADE THE SECOND NOTIFICATION. IT SLIPPED MY MEMORY FOR THE MOMENT.

Q: OKAY. WHO WAS IT THAT ASKED YOU TO MAKE THE SECOND NOTIFICATION?

A: TOM LANGE.

Q: AND DID YOU DO SO IMMEDIATELY?

A: YES, I DID. MIGHT -- 8:10 RINGS A BELL WITH ME RIGHT NOW. I'M NOT SURE, BUT I THINK IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN 8:10.

Q: 10 MINUTES AFTER 8:00 IN THE MORNING THAT YOU CALLED?

A: I'M ONLY GUESSING NOW. SO I SHOULDN'T DO THAT.

MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, PLEASE?

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MS. CLARK: ON THE SAME TRANSCRIPT, YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO PROCEED TO PAGE 6.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PAGE 6 OF PEOPLE'S 69.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT'S BEING SHOWN THERE ON THE MONITOR, SIR?

A: YES, I DO.

Q: OKAY. DO YOU RECOGNIZE -- IS THAT THE -- FURTHER DOWN IN THE TRANSCRIPT THAT WE HAVE PREVIOUSLY BEEN TALKING ABOUT OF YOUR CONVERSATION WITH THE CORONER --

A: YES.

Q: -- ON THE MORNING OF JUNE THE 13TH?

A: YES.

Q: AND DOES IT SHOW ANOTHER CONVERSATION BETWEEN YOU AND SOMEONE FROM THE CORONER'S OFFICE?

A: YES.

Q: AND DOES IT SHOW A TIME FOR THAT CALL?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHAT WAS THAT TIME, SIR?

A: EIGHT MINUTES AFTER 8:00 IN THE MORNING.

Q: DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO THE TIME AT WHICH YOU ACTUALLY MADE THE CALL?

A: MORE PRECISE, YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, IN THIS CALL, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE TRANSCRIPT, IT SHOWS THAT YOU STATED, "WE ALREADY GAVE YOU GUYS THE FIRST CALL SEVERAL HOURS AGO ON BUNDY"?

A: YES.

Q: WAS THE -- YOU INDICATED THAT YOUR FIRST CALL ACTUALLY WAS AT 6:50 --

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: -- TO THE CORONER. WAS THAT AN ACCURATE TIME, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT DID YOU MEAN THEN WHEN YOU SAY YOU GAVE THE CALL SEVERAL HOURS AGO ON BUNDY?

A: JUST A FORM OF SPEECH.

Q: IS THAT WHAT IT FELT LIKE?

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, JUST A MOMENT. DOES SHE HAVE TO INTERPRET EVERY WORD, YOUR HONOR? THAT'S IMPROPER.

THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: IT MAY HAVE SEEMED LIKE THAT AT THE TIME, BUT --

Q: BY MS. CLARK: AND FARTHER DOWN, YOU ASKED, "OKAY. CAN YOU GIVE ME AN ETA IF YOU STARTED ROLLING NOW?"

A: YES.

Q: WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?

A: ESTIMATED TIME OF ARRIVAL.

Q: AND IF WE COULD GO FARTHER DOWN. THE PERSON YOU'RE SPEAKING TO, HEATH.

A: YES.

Q: DO YOU KNOW WHO THAT IS?

A: YEAH. HE'S ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT ANSWERS THE PHONE AT THE CORONER'S OFFICE.

Q: OKAY. DOES HE DO ANYTHING WITH RESPECT TO DISPATCHING OR GIVING NOTIFICATION TO THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE TO GO TO THE SCENE AT THE CORONER'S OFFICE?

A: THAT'S HIS FUNCTION I BELIEVE THAT MORNING.

Q: SO HE GAVE YOU SOME INFORMATION IN THIS TRANSCRIPT AS IT'S SHOWN DURING YOUR CONVERSATION THAT YOU -- THE DRIVING TIME AND THE ESTIMATE?

A: YES.

Q: AND THEN YOU STATED, "OKAY. SO YOU'RE TALKING, TALKING A GOOD 45 MINUTES THEN."

A: RIGHT.

Q: RIGHT. FARTHER DOWN. NOW, WHY ARE YOU ASKING FOR AN ETA? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THAT?

A: TO FIND OUT AT WHAT TIME -- WHAT TIME THEY COULD DISPATCH THEIR PERSONNEL TO OUR LOCATION SO I COULD COINCIDE THAT WITH TOM LANGE'S -- WHEN HE WOULD PROBABLY BE READY FOR THEM AND PUT THE TWO TOGETHER.

Q: OKAY. NOW, FARTHER ALONG IN THE TRANSCRIPT, DO YOU DISCUSS THE TIME FURTHER WITH HIM IN YOUR CONVERSATION?

A: YES.

Q: AND DO YOU GIVE THEM A DESCRIPTION OF WHAT THEY SHOULD EXPECT THERE?

A: YES. I AM SORRY. IS THAT A QUESTION?

Q: I THINK YOU JUST ANSWERED IT.

A: OH, OKAY.

Q: DO YOU SEE THE FURTHER INFORMATION HERE? DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS -- THESE STATEMENTS ABOUT, "DO YOU GOT THE CORONER'S NUMBER YET"?

A: YES.

Q: IS THAT YOU?

A: I'M ASKING DO YOU HAVE THE CORONER NUMBER YET.

Q: UH-HUH. AND THEN YOU'RE GETTING THAT FROM THIS PERSON MR. HEATH?

A: YES.

Q: AND FOR WHAT PURPOSE ARE YOU ASKING FOR THE CORONER'S NUMBERS?

A: WE ALWAYS PUT THE CORONER'S NUMBER DOWN. THAT'S HOW WE REFER TO THEM IN THE CORONER'S OFFICE FROM THAT POINT ON.

Q: OKAY. AND THEN YOU SEE THE END OF YOUR CONVERSATION?

A: YES.

MS. CLARK: I THINK THAT'S ALL. MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, PLEASE?

THE COURT: CERTAINLY.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.

THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. COCHRAN:

Q: GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE.

A: GOOD MORNING, MR. COCHRAN. HOW ARE YOU?

Q: I'M JUST FINE. HOW ARE YOU THIS MORNING?

A: FINE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. GREAT.

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, MIGHT WE START WITH -- I HAVE SOME TRANSCRIPTS OF THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION INVOLVING DETECTIVE PHILLIPS FOR THE JURY. I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THEM, ONE OF THEM, AND HAVE THEM PASSED OUT TO THE JURY. I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY IT, HAVE IT CUED UP --

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, DIDN'T YOU JUST REFUSE TO ALLOW ME TO DO THAT?

MR. COCHRAN: YOU DIDN'T REFUSE TO ALLOW HER TO DO ANYTHING.

THE COURT: ARE YOU GOING TO PLAY -- I ASKED YOU DO YOU HAVE THE TAPE?

MR. COCHRAN: SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T HAVE THE TAPE.

THE COURT: OVER HERE AT SIDEBAR, PLEASE.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)

THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE THE TAPE?

MR. COCHRAN: YES, I HAVE THE TAPE. IT'S ALREADY CUED UP.

THE COURT: BOTH CONVERSATIONS?

MR. COCHRAN: BOTH CONVERSATIONS. YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: MISS CLARK, WHAT'S YOUR OBJECTION?

MS. CLARK: I THINK THIS IS VERY UNFAIR, YOUR HONOR. I DON'T THINK YOU NEED TO HAVE THE TAPE TO HAVE THE JURY FOLLOW ALONG THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE CONVERSATION THAT THIS WITNESS IS A PARTY TO. I COULD HAVE HAD HIM GO THROUGH THE WHOLE THING, LET THE JURY READ ALONG WITH HIM. AND THERE IS A COMPLETE CONVERSATION IN THERE. HE CAN TESTIFY TO ALL OF IT. THE COURT REFUSED TO ALLOW ME TO DO THAT.

MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S NOT TRUE. THE COURT DID NOT REFUSE --

THE COURT: THAT'S NOT CORRECT. WHAT I REFUSED TO ALLOW YOU TO DO WAS SHOW THE TRANSCRIPTS TO THE JURY. I ASKED YOU IF YOU WANT TO USE TRANSCRIPTS WITH THE JURORS, WHY DON'T WE PLAY TAPES SO THEY GO ALONG WITH THE CONVERSATION. THAT'S WHAT WE DO THAT FOR. I ASKED YOU SPECIFICALLY ARE YOU GOING TO PLAY THE TAPE. YOU SAID NO, YOU DON'T HAVE THE TAPE.

MS. CLARK: WAIT. I WOULD LIKE TO -- IS THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION BEING DEEMED ADMISSIBLE BY THE COURT?

MR. COCHRAN: NOT THE CONVERSATION. THE TAPE.

MS. CLARK: THAT IS, THE COURT REFUSED THE TRANSCRIPT.

THE COURT: NO, I HAVEN'T.

MS. CLARK: WELL, I THINK I HAVE OPENED UP --

THE COURT: WHAT'S OBJECTIONABLE ABOUT IT?

MS. CLARK: CERTAIN AREAS --

MR. COCHRAN: WHAT IS THE OBJECTION?

MS. CLARK: CERTAIN AREAS ARE IRRELEVANT TO THE POINT OF INQUIRY AND CERTAIN AREAS ARE NOT.

THE COURT: LET ME SEE THE TRANSCRIPT.

MR. COCHRAN: THE ENTIRE THING IS ALL ADMISSIBLE, YOUR HONOR.

MR. DARDEN: NOT WHAT IS ON THE BACK OF THE TRANSCRIPT HOWEVER. WHAT IS THE LAST PAGE OF THIS DOCUMENT?

MR. COCHRAN: WE JUST TAKE WHATEVER THEY GIVE US. IT'S FROM L.A. COUNTY.

MR. SHAPIRO: IT'S YOUR STUFF.

MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, LOOK AT THE LAST PAGE. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS.

MR. COCHRAN: YOU GUYS, WHY DON'T YOU GUYS GROW UP.

MR. DARDEN: THE COURT WILL NOTE THERE IS A NOTATION ON THE BACK OF THIS TRANSCRIPT. IT IS NOT PART OF THE TRANSCRIPT AT ALL.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL THAT IS, YOUR HONOR, IS THE ONE-MINUTE GAP THAT EXPLAINS WHAT THE TWO OF THEM ARE. THIS IS THE WAY IT CAME. I DIDN'T WANT TO MARK IT AT ALL.

THE COURT: I HAVE REVIEWED THE TRANSCRIPT OF BOTH CONVERSATIONS, THE TOTAL OF WHICH IS SEVEN PAGES. WHAT'S THE OBJECTION?

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, YOU KNOW WHAT -- LET ME ASK LEAVE OF THE COURT FOR THIS. COUNSEL HAS NOT EVEN BEGUN CROSS. I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE -- SINCE THE COURT IS GOING TO ALLOW THE TRANSCRIPT, THE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WITHDRAW THEIR OBJECTION. I WOULD LIKE TO FINISH TAKING DETECTIVE PHILLIPS THEN THROUGH THE TRANSCRIPT. I WOULD HAVE DONE IT ON DIRECT IF WE COULD HAVE PERMITTED THE JURY TO HAVE THE ENTIRE TRANSCRIPT. SINCE I KNOW THEY WILL NOW, I WOULD LIKE TO GO THROUGH MORE PORTIONS OF IT BEFORE I COMPLETE MY DIRECT EXAMINATION. COUNSEL IS NOT EVEN INTO CROSS YET. AND THEN SINCE COUNSEL HAS THE TAPE, I'M NOT OBJECTING TO IT BEING PLAYED, BUT I WOULD LIKE LEAVE OF THE COURT TO COMPLETE SOME MORE EXAMINATION SINCE THE JURY IS NOW GOING TO BE PERMITTED TO SEE THE ENTIRE TRANSCRIPT.

MR. COCHRAN: WELL, YOUR HONOR, THAT IS WHAT REDIRECT EXAMINATION IS FOR. I'M NOW PROCEEDING WITH MY CROSS-EXAMINATION. I SHOULD BE PERMITTED TO DO THAT, YOUR HONOR, AND THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS. WE HAVE PREPARED THIS. I AM PREPARED TO GO FORWARD AND THERE'S NO OBJECTION TO THIS, YOUR HONOR. SHE'S USED THIS. I WOULD LIKE TO PROCEED IF I MIGHT, YOUR HONOR. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT LAST PAGE. THAT CAME WITH IT. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT LAST PAGE.

MR. SHAPIRO: ALSO, JUDGE, A LOT OF STRATEGY IS INVOLVED, TRYING --

THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, MR. SHAPIRO. ONLY ONE VOICE PER SIDE. LET'S TAKE THE --

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU. BUT, YOUR HONOR, I WOULD HAVE GONE MORE DEEPLY INTO THE TRANSCRIPT HAD I KNOWN THAT COUNSEL WAS GOING TO OFFER THE ENTIRE DOCUMENT. WAIT. WAIT. LET ME FINISH, PLEASE. I WOULD HAVE GONE THROUGH IT PAGE BY PAGE HAD I BEEN ABLE TO ALLOW THE JURY TO FOLLOW ALONG AND GIVE THEM THE ENTIRE TRANSCRIPT AS PREVIOUSLY REQUESTED. BUT ALL I WOULD LIKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO NOW IS TO TAKE THEM FURTHER THROUGH THE DOCUMENT. AND I'M GOING TO WITHDRAW MY OBJECTION, SO COUNSEL CAN PLAY THE ENTIRE TAPE FOR THE JURY. IF I HAD IT HERE, I WOULD HAVE PLAYED IT. WE DIDN'T HAVE IT. BUT I WOULD ASK LEAVE OF THE COURT TO SIMPLY COMPLETE MY EXAMINATION WITH THE BALANCE OF THE PASSAGES PERTAINING TO THE DIRECT EXAMINATION I PREVIOUSLY HAD NOW THAT I KNOW THERE'S NO OBJECTION FROM HIM. THE REASON I WENT INTO THE AREAS THAT I DID WAS BECAUSE I WANTED TO EXPLAIN THE PORTIONS HIGHLIGHTED BY COUNSEL IN HIS OPENING STATEMENT BECAUSE IT WAS CLEAR TO ME COUNSEL WOULD NOT OBJECT TO THAT. SINCE NOW I KNOW THAT COUNSEL WILL NOT OBJECT TO THE BALANCE OF THE DOCUMENT, I ONLY WANT TO COMPLETE MY EXAMINATION WITH THE BALANCE OF THE CONVERSATION NOW THAT I KNOW THAT THERE'S NO FURTHER OBJECTION TO IT.

MR. COCHRAN: MAY I BE HEARD, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: BRIEFLY.

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, IN THIS CONNECTION, COUNSEL, AS EVERYBODY DOES, HAS TO TRY THEIR CASE. WE HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO TELL THEM WE HAVE ANY TRANSCRIPTS FOR THE JURORS. WE HAVE THE SAME DISCOVERY, YOUR HONOR. WE GOT THIS READY. WE ARE READY TO PROCEED. IT'S MY TIME FOR CROSS-EXAMINATION. I WANT TO PLAY THE ENTIRE TAPE. SHE HAD EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO DO WHATEVER SHE WANTED TO DO. SHE CAN'T GO BACK AND DO IT NOW. THIS IS HIGHLY UNUSUAL. SHE HAS THE OPPORTUNITY ON REDIRECT TO DO WHATEVER SHE WANTS TO DO. I WOULD LIKE TO PROCEED WITH MY EXAMINATION. SHE'S BEEN UP THERE FOR PART OF TWO DAYS WITH THIS WITNESS AND I WOULD LIKE TO PROCEED IF I MAY. THIS IS HIGHLY UNUSUAL AND UNFAIR, YOUR HONOR.

MS. CLARK: I DON'T SEE WHAT IS UNFAIR --

MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO PROCEED, YOUR HONOR. THAT'S WHAT I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO. I WANT TO BE ABLE TO PROCEED WITH MY QUESTIONING. IF SHE HAS SOMETHING SHE WANTS TO CLARIFY, SHE CAN DO IT ON REDIRECT EXAMINATION.

MS. CLARK: I'LL TELL YOU, WHAT'S UNFAIR IS THE UNFAIR IMPRESSION CREATED WITH THE JURY THAT THE PEOPLE HAVE NOT BEEN ALLOWED TO PRESENT SOMETHING THAT THE DEFENSE IS BEING ALLOWED TO PRESENT.

MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S NOT TRUE AT ALL.

THE COURT: MISS CLARK, WAIT A MINUTE.

MS. CLARK: IT IS TRUE.

THE COURT: WAIT A MINUTE.

MR. COCHRAN: SHE'S THINKING OF ANOTHER CASE NOW.

THE COURT: HERE'S THE PROBLEM. YOU HAD THIS TRANSCRIPT, AND THE USE OF TRANSCRIPTS WITH REGARD TO TAPE-RECORDED CONVERSATIONS, WHEN YOU PRESENT A TAPE-RECORDING, YOU ARE SUPPOSES TO HAVE THE TRANSCRIPT TO PRESENT TO THE JURY. YOU ASKED ME FOR PERMISSION TO PASS OUT THAT ONE PAGE. I TOLD YOU NO BECAUSE WE HAD THE ELMO WITH THE PORTION THAT YOU WERE USING.

MR. COCHRAN: UNDERLINED.

THE COURT: THAT WE DIDN'T NEED TO TAKE THE TIME TO PASS IT OUT. WE ARE NOW GOING TO USE IT WITH A TAPE-RECORDING. THIS IS A MUCH DIFFERENT SITUATION, ONE. SO THERE IS A VAST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO SITUATIONS. SECONDLY, FOR ME TO ALLOW YOU TO REOPEN YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION AT THIS POINT AFTER DEFENSE COUNSEL HAS ALREADY TOLD YOU WHAT THEY'RE ABOUT TO DO -- I MEAN THERE'S STRATEGY INVOLVED HERE AS TO HOW THEY WANT TO PRESENT THEIR CASE, THAT I WOULD THEN ALLOW YOU TO CUT THEM OFF AT THE PASS ON SOME OF THESE THINGS.

MS. CLARK: WHAT IS THE STRATEGY INVOLVED THAT I'M INTERFERING WITH BY POINTING OUT OTHER PORTIONS OF THE TRANSCRIPT? I DON'T UNDERSTAND. EXCUSE ME.

MR. COCHRAN: YOU'VE ALREADY RULED.

THE COURT: WELL, THE OBJECTION IS OVERRULED.

MR. DARDEN: JUDGE, BEFORE WE GO --

MR. COCHRAN: ONE PERSON.

MS. CLARK: THIS IS SOMETHING ELSE.

MR. DARDEN: ON THE RECORD WHILE MR. BAILEY WAS DOING CROSS, WE ASKED THE COURT TO INSTRUCT COUNSEL TO SHOW EXHIBITS TO OPPOSING COUNSEL BEFORE THEY PRESENT THEM BEFORE THE JURY. THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN HERE. IF WE HAD NOT COME HERE ON THE OBJECTION, WE WOULD NOT KNOW --

MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S NOT TRUE AT ALL.

MR. DARDEN: WE DID NOT KNOW THAT THE JURY WAS ABOUT TO RECEIVE THIS DOCUMENT WHICH IS ATTACHED TO THE END OF THE TRANSCRIPT.

THE COURT: MR. DARDEN, HE JUST HANDED YOU --

MR. COCHRAN: I HANDED YOU A COPY OF THAT BEFORE I GAVE IT TO YOU.

MS. CLARK: IT'S NOT THE SAME ONE.

MR. COCHRAN: IT'S THE SAME ONE. GO GET IT. IT'S THE SAME ONE.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. STOP IT.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

MR. COCHRAN: MAY WE DISTRIBUTE THEM TO THE JURORS, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: YES. DEPUTY JACKSON, WOULD YOU DISTRIBUTE THOSE TO THE JURY, PLEASE.

(THE BAILIFF COMPLIES.)

MR. DARDEN: BEFORE WE PLAY THE TAPE, MAY WE INSPECT THE TAPE PHYSICALLY BEFORE IT'S PLAYED?

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: FOLKS, IF YOU JUST HOLD ON TO THOSE TRANSCRIPTS. DON'T READ THEM UNTIL WE ACTUALLY START PLAYING THE TAPE THAT IT PERTAINS TO.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE GET ANOTHER COPY? DEFENSE JUST TOOK THE COPY WE WERE USING.

THE COURT: I'M SORRY, MISS CLARK. I DIDN'T HEAR THAT.

MS. CLARK: CAN WE GET ANOTHER CLEAN COPY OF THE TRANSCRIPT? THE COURT -- THE DEFENSE JUST TOOK THE ONE WE WERE USING.

THE COURT: I THINK IT'S THE SAME ONE THAT YOU HAVE WITHOUT THE ENVELOPE, ISN'T IT?

MS. CLARK: I REALIZE THAT, YOUR HONOR. BUT WE WANTED TO MARK IT AND DEFENSE OBJECTED TO THE COPY --

THE COURT: WAIT.

MR. COCHRAN: I GAVE YOU ONE I THOUGHT, COUNSEL.

MR. HARRIS: I HAVE ONE HERE.

THE COURT: WAIT. WAIT. WAIT. COUNSEL, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. WHEN I SAY WAIT, EVERYBODY STOPS TALKING AND SITS DOWN. ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK, HAVE YOU HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT THE TAPE? MR. DARDEN?

MR. DARDEN: I HAVE, YOUR HONOR. MR. COCHRAN HAS TOLD ME THAT THE TAPE HAS NOT BEEN ENHANCED OR OTHERWISE EDITED, AND I ACCEPT THAT REPRESENTATION. THANK YOU, SIR.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, SIR.

THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY PROCEED.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: JUST A COUPLE QUESTIONS. GOOD MORNING AGAIN, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS. SORRY FOR THE DELAY. I'M GOING TO PLAY THE TAPE NOW AND I WANT YOU TO ASSIST US IN IDENTIFYING THE VOICES. WOULD YOU LIKE A COPY OF THE TRANSCRIPT ALSO --

A: YES.

Q: -- TO GO ALONG WITH IT? YOU PERHAPS NEED ONE.

MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: YOU MAY.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.

THE WITNESS: THANK YOU.

MR. COCHRAN: SURE. NOW -- I'LL ASK MR. HARRIS, YOUR HONOR, TO PLACE THE TAPE IN NOW. I'LL ASK HIM TO STOP IT AT CERTAIN POINTS.

(FROM 11:26 TO 11:26, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1019, AN AUDIOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S GO BACK -- LET'S GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING.

MR. COCHRAN: BEFORE HE PLAYS THAT, LET ME ASK A QUESTION IF I MIGHT, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: CERTAINLY.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, THIS PURPORTS TO BE A TELEPHONIC COMMUNICATION BETWEEN A DEPUTY CORONER BY THE NAME OF PAUL WILLIS AND YOURSELF, AND I'LL ASK YOU IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE VOICES AT SOME POINT, OKAY?

A: I'LL RECOGNIZE MINE.

Q: OKAY. AND YOU'LL HOPEFULLY RECOGNIZE THE OTHER VOICE. ALL RIGHT. WHY DON'T WE START THE TAPE.

(AT 11:27 TO 11:27, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1019, AN AUDIOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, WHOSE VOICE WAS THAT?

A: BEFORE IT SAID, "OKAY, WHAT"?

Q: YES. WHERE I GOT --

A: IT WAS MY VOICE.

Q: THAT'S YOUR VOICE? ALL RIGHT.

A: SOUNDS LIKE IT.

Q: AND THAT WAS YOUR VOICE ON JUNE 13TH, 1994 AT ABOUT 6:49?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: IS THIS YOUR FIRST CALL?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. LET'S PROCEED.

(AT 11:28 TO 11:28, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1019, AN AUDIOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, AT THAT POINT, WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PROCEDURE, ONE OF THE PROCEDURES OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT AND PART OF YOUR MANUAL IS THAT YOU ARE TO NOTIFY THE CORONER AS SOON AS PRACTICAL, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND IF YOU LOOK IN YOUR BOOK THERE BEFORE YOU, YOUR MANUAL, ISN'T THERE A SECTION 238.46, NOTIFICATION OF THE CORONER?

A: YES.

Q: AND IT SAYS ESSENTIALLY, DOESN'T IT, SIR, THAT: "IT SHALL BE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE INVESTIGATING OFFICERS TO NOTIFY THE CORONER OF ALL DEATHS OCCURRING," AND IT LISTS A SERIES OF TIMES; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND AS AN EXPERIENCED HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR, YOU KNOW THAT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE CORONER TO BE NOTIFIED BECAUSE THE SOONER THE CORONER GETS THERE, THE SOONER THE CORONER CAN DO WHAT THE CORONER DOES AND TRY TO ASCERTAIN WHEN THE TIME OF DEATH WAS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S IMPORTANT.

Q: ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT IN EVERY CASE, THE TIME OF DEATH?

A: IT'S IMPORTANT. IT COULD BE.

Q: AND IN YOUR OWN DEPARTMENT, THERE HAVE BEEN COMPLAINTS FROM THE CORONER'S OFFICE ABOUT THE LAPD NOT GIVING THEM NOTICE ON TIME; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: I'VE NEVER HEARD OF ANY OF THOSE COMPLAINTS.

Q: YOU NEVER HEARD OF THOSE COMPLAINTS?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: HAVE YOU HEARD THAT YOUR OWN CHIEF WILLIE WILLIAMS HAS INSTITUTED AN INVESTIGATION INTO THE DETECTIVES NOT GIVING PROPER NOTICE AND APPROPRIATE NOTICE TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE?

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. VAGUE, WHAT'S PROPER AND APPROPRIATE AND HEARSAY. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY INVESTIGATION BEING DONE BY CHIEF WILLIE WILLIAMS.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU'RE NOT AWARE OF ANY INVESTIGATION SINCE JUNE OF 1994 WHERE THE CHIEF HAS HAD AN INVESTIGATION DONE BECAUSE THE LAPD DOES NOT GIVE TIMELY NOTICE TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE?

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE.

MR. COCHRAN: I AM ASKING.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

MS. CLARK: HE'S TESTIFYING, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: I TOLD YOU THAT I DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THAT INVESTIGATION, SIR.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: AND YOU DO NOT -- YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF THE L.A. COUNTY CORONER'S OFFICE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE LAPD NOT GIVING NOTICE?

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE, ARGUMENTATIVE, ASKED AND ANSWERED.

THE COURT: OVERRULED. OVERRULED.

THE WITNESS: I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY FRESH, NEW COMPLAINT OR INVESTIGATION GOING ON. I'M AWARE OF THE FACT THAT THAT'S WHAT BROUGHT ABOUT THE FIRST CALL AND THE SECOND CALL, IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING OTHER THAN FRESH THEN. LET'S TALK ABOUT -- I'VE ASKED YOU GENERALLY. NOW LET'S ASK, WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THE CORONER'S OFFICE BEING CONCERNED ABOUT NOT GETTING NOTIFICATION OF THESE DEATHS?

A: WELL, I KNOW THAT THE CORONER'S OFFICE REQUEST THAT WE MAKE A FIRST CALL TELLING THEM WHAT WE HAVE SO THEY CAN MAKE ARRANGEMENTS TO HAVE THEIR PERSONNEL READY FOR WHEN WE MAKE THE SECOND CALL TO COME OUT TO A CRIME SCENE SO IT WOULD -- THEY WOULD NOT WASTE AS MUCH TIME GETTING THEIR MANPOWER SITUATED ALONG WITH OUR MANPOWER.

Q: AND WHEN WAS THAT? WHEN WAS THAT DISCUSSION -- WHEN DID YOU INSTITUTE THIS FIRST CALL PROCEDURE?

A: WELL, THAT'S BEEN INSTITUTED FOR YEARS.

Q: IS THAT IN YOUR MANUAL ANYWHERE?

A: I KNOW IT'S IN THE SPECIAL ORDER.

Q: IS IT IN YOUR MANUAL?

A: SPECIAL ORDER NUMBER 21 I BELIEVE.

Q: DO YOU HAVE THAT UP THERE?

A: I DON'T HAVE IT HERE.

Q: SO IT'S NOT IN THE MANUAL.

A: I DON'T KNOW -- I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S -- IT'S PROBABLY IN THE MANUAL. IF IT'S A SPECIAL ORDER, IT'S NOW -- SPECIAL ORDERS GO IN THE MANUAL.

Q: ALL RIGHT. WELL, OVER THE LUNCH HOUR, CAN YOU -- WOULD YOU LOOK AND SEE IF YOU CAN FIND IT FOR US? I SUSPECT WE WILL BE BACK THIS AFTERNOON.

A: I HAVE A COPY OF IT.

Q: OKAY. CAN YOU SEE IF YOU CAN FIND IT IN THE MANUAL FOR US OVER THE LUNCH HOUR?

A: OKAY.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW -- BUT BASICALLY, YOU ARE AWARE AND IN THE MANUAL IS 238.46, NOTIFICATION TO CORONER; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND IT INDICATES THAT --

MR. COCHRAN: IN FACT, MAYBE IF YOUR HONOR WILL ALLOW -- I'M NOT SURE THAT THIS HAS BEEN MARKED. I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW THIS TO COUNSEL AND I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THIS AND PUT IT ON THE ELMO AT THIS POINT BEFORE WE GO BACK TO THE TAPE.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, THIS IS FROM THE 1991 MANUAL. IF THE PEOPLE COULD HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO CHECK IT AGAINST THE '94, '95, MAKE SURE IT'S THE SAME.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE WITNESS.)

THE COURT: PERHAPS YOU SHOULD PASS ON TO SOMETHING ELSE.

MR. COCHRAN: COULD WE JUST HAVE A SECOND, YOUR HONOR?

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE WITNESS.)

MR. COCHRAN: JUST A SECOND MORE, YOUR HONOR.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE WITNESS.)

THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY, WHILE THE LAWYERS ARE CONFERRING, IF YOU WANT TO STAND UP AND STRETCH OR STRETCH YOUR LEGS A LITTLE, FEEL FREE TO DO SO.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE WITNESS.)

THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, WOULD YOU GIVE THOSE ITEMS TO BE PHOTOCOPIED TO MISS MIRAN, PLEASE. TOO LATE.

MR. COCHRAN: WE'LL HAVE THE COPIES IN JUST A SECOND, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. AND MR. TYLER, WOULD YOU TELL MISS MIRAN I NEED ABOUT HALF A DOZEN OF EACH?

MR. TYLER: HALF DOZEN?

THE COURT: HALF DOZEN. THANK YOU.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY, YOUR HONOR. I BELIEVE WE ARE NOW -- I BELIEVE COUNSEL NOW HAS A COPY AND I HAVE A COPY AND WE'RE NOW I BELIEVE READY TO PROCEED. I THINK WHATEVER I ASKED LAST, I MOVE TO STRIKE THAT, YOUR HONOR, AND GO FOR THIS QUESTION.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, YOU'VE NOW PROVIDED US WITH A 1994 VERSION OF THE NOTIFICATION TO CORONER, AND IT'S 238.46 OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT MANUAL; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THAT STILL?

A: NO. YOU TOOK MINE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. I'M GOING TO BRING IT BACK.

MR. COCHRAN: I'M GOING TO ASK THE COURT TO MARK THAT AS DEFENSE NEXT IN ORDER AND PUT IT ON THE ELMO, YOUR HONOR, AND I'M GOING TO RETURN THESE TWO TO DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THAT'S DEFENSE --

THE WITNESS: THANK YOU, SIR.

THE COURT: 1016.

MR. COCHRAN: 1016?

THE COURT: YES.

(DEFT'S 1016 FOR ID = 1994 VERSION 238.46)

MR. COCHRAN: NOW, CAN YOU BRING THAT A LITTLE CLEARER, PLEASE? AND NOW IT'S 238.46. 46.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, THAT SECTION INDICATES, DOES IT NOT, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, THAT: "IT SHALL BE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE INVESTIGATING OFFICERS TO NOTIFY THE CORONER OF ALL DEATHS OCCURRING," AND LISTS A SERIES OF TIMES, AND UNDER THEM ARE WHEN THE DECEASED DIED UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES WHILE UNDER ARREST; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: WHEN THE DECEASED HAS NOT BEEN ATTENDED BY A PHYSICIAN WITHIN 20 DAYS PRECEDING DEATH?

A: YES.

Q: WHEN THE DECEASED COMMITTED SUICIDE?

A: YES.

Q: WHEN THE ATTENDING PHYSICIAN IS UNABLE TO STATE THE CAUSE OF DEATH?

A: YES.

Q: WHEN THE DECEASED DIED AS A RESULT OF AN ACCIDENT?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHEN THERE'S ANY SUSPICION THAT THE DEATH RESULTED FROM THE USE OF NARCOTICS?

A: YES.

Q: AND THEN -- AND I HOPE WE COPIED THAT -- OVER AT THE NEXT PAGE AT THE TOP, GOES ON TO SAY: "UNDER SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES AS TO AFFORD A REASONABLE GROUND TO SUSPECT THAT DEATH WAS CAUSED BY THE CRIMINAL ACT OF ANOTHER." AND THIS OF COURSE WAS THE SECTION UNDER WHICH YOU WERE OPERATING; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND SO THAT WAS PART OF YOUR MANUAL, PART OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AS AN INVESTIGATING OFFICER; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: IT WAS NOT --

Q: ON THAT DATE, JUNE 12TH.

A: IT'S MY RESPONSIBILITY AS INVESTIGATING OFFICER AND HAD I BEEN THE INVESTIGATION OFFICER AT THE TIME.

Q: RIGHT. AND -- BUT -- AND SINCE YOU HAD BEEN RELIEVED OF DUTY, IT FELL TO LANGE AND VANNATTER AND AS SUCH, AS WE'RE HEARING FROM THIS TAPE, YOU WERE CARRYING OUT THE REQUEST OF TOM LANGE TO DO THIS; IS THAT CORRECT, SIR?

A: THAT'S RIGHT.

Q: NOW, IN ADDITION TO THAT, RIGHT UNDER THIS PARTICULAR SECTION, IT CITES HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE SECTION 10250. AND AS AN EXPERIENCED DETECTIVE, YOU KNOW WHAT THAT SECTION IS ABOUT, DON'T YOU?

A: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: AND SO THAT WE'RE ALL CLEAR, YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO MARK AS DEFENDANT'S NEXT IN ORDER -- I'M GIVING COUNSEL A COPY OF THE HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE. I WOULD LIKE TO MARK AS DEFENDANT'S NEXT TO ORDER D-1017 TO PUT ON THE ELMO THE PARTICULAR SECTION, 1017.

(DEFT'S 1017 FOR ID = H&S CODE SECTION 10250)

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING ABOUT RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CORONER AND THIS PARTICULAR HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE SECTION 10250 IF THE CORONER IS NOT NOTIFIED PROMPTLY AND APPROPRIATELY? WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THAT?

A: WELL, IT'S BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE I READ THE HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE, BUT I UNDERSTAND IF YOU WERE TO HAVE A SITUATION WHERE YOU WOULD HAVE A DEAD BODY AND YOU MADE NO NOTIFICATION AT ALL TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE AND I IMAGINE JUST LEFT AND WALKED AWAY FROM IT, YOU WOULD BE GUILTY OF A MISDEMEANOR OR SOME TYPE OF CRIME.

Q: ALL RIGHT. LET'S LOOK AT THIS SECTION. THIS SECTION DOES PROVIDE UNDER 10250 THAT IF YOU LOOK RIGHT AT THIS SECTION --

THE COURT: EXCUSE ME, COUNSEL. IS THAT THE '94 VERSION?

MR. COCHRAN: I HOPE IT IS. WE GOT IT FROM YOUR HONOR'S CLERKS I THINK.

THE COURT: THAT'S -- NO. THERE IS A 1994 AMENDMENT TO --

MR. COCHRAN: WELL, WE GOT THE ONE FROM THEM. SO MAY I SEE THAT?

MR. DARDEN: CAN WE TAKE THIS ONE OFF THE SCREEN?

THE COURT: YES.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

THE COURT: CAN WE HAVE ONE OF THE LAW CLERKS COPY THAT?

MS. CLARK: TO AVOID DELAY, I DON'T MIND IF COUNSEL USES THE ONE WE GOT. THAT'S FINE.

THE COURT: IF WE ARE GOING TO USE THE STATUTE, LET'S USE THE STATUTE, THE CORRECT ONE. YES.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

MR. COCHRAN: I'M GOING TO REPLACE THIS AND MARK THIS 1017, YOUR HONOR. MISS CLARK AND I HAVE BOTH SEEN IT.

(DEFT'S 1017 FOR ID = REPLACED COPY OF STATUTE)

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, WITH REGARD TO THIS 1994 AMENDMENT OF SECTION 10250, THE NOTIFICATION OF CORONER AND VIOLATIONS, DO YOU SEE THE PART UP THERE WHERE IT INDICATES THAT --

MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU MAKE THAT A LITTLE CLEARER, PLEASE, MR. HARRIS, IF POSSIBLE? RIGHT THERE.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU SEE THAT PART WHERE IT SAYS: "ANY PERSON WHO DOES NOT NOTIFY THE CORONER AS REQUIRED BY THIS SECTION IS GUILTY OF A MISDEMEANOR"? SO IT MAKES IT A CRIME; DOES IT NOT?

A: IF YOU WERE TO DO THAT, YES.

Q: RIGHT. IF YOU DIDN'T GIVE NOTICE TO THE CORONER UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES SPELLED OUT IN 10250; IS THAT CORRECT, SIR?

A: IF YOU DIDN'T NOTIFY THE CORONER WHEN YOU HAD A DEAD BODY AND YOU WERE A POLICE OFFICER, I WOULD ASSUME YOU WERE VIOLATING THE LAW.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND WITH REGARD TO THIS WHOLE CONCEPT OF THE FIRST CALL, YOU WERE KIND ENOUGH TO GIVE US A SPECIAL ORDER NUMBER 21 DATED NOVEMBER 17TH, 1993, AND THE SUBJECT DEALS WITH NOTIFICATIONS TO THE CORONER.

A: YES.

Q: YOU HAVE THE ORIGINAL BACK, DO YOU?

A: YES.

Q: AND THIS WAS SIGNED BY OUR CHIEF OF POLICE WILLIE L. WILLIAMS; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND WITH REGARD TO THIS PARTICULAR DOCUMENT --

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: I'M GOING TO MARK THIS --

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THAT DEFENDANT'S --

THE COURT: 1018.

MR. COCHRAN: 1018, YOUR HONOR.

(DEF'S 1018 FOR ID = COPY OF SPEC. ORDER 21)

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. AND SINCE I ONLY HAVE -- YOUR STAFF WAS VERY FRUGAL, YOUR HONOR AND ONLY MADE TWO COPIES. SO I HAVE TO STAND OVER MISS CLARK'S SHOULDER IF I CAN.

MS. CLARK: THE PEOPLE DON'T OBJECT EVEN THOUGH THERE'S UNDERLYING ON IT.

MR. COCHRAN: WELL, IT CAME FROM HER WITNESS, SO I GUESS IT'S ALL RIGHT. MAY I PROCEED, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: YES, YOU MAY.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, THIS DOCUMENT, SPECIAL ORDER NUMBER 21, NOVEMBER 17TH, 1993, THE PURPOSE OF THIS DOCUMENT WAS WHAT? DO YOU RECALL THE PURPOSE?

A: IT WAS JUST A -- PURPOSE FOR ME TO READ IT?

Q: WELL, AS YOU UNDERSTAND THE PURPOSE, YES, SIR, OR YOU KNEW.

A: IT HAS TO DO WITH IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION WHENEVER IT IS DETERMINED THAT A DEATH FALLS WITHIN THE PURVIEW OF THE CORONER'S OFFICE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. LET'S SAY WHEN YOU SAID IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION, THAT MEANS QUICKLY, RIGHT AWAY, IMMEDIATE?

A: AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

Q: UH-HUH. IS THAT WHAT IT MEANS TO YOU?

A: IN THESE TYPES OF CIRCUMSTANCES, THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS TO ME.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND SO WHEN IT SAYS IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION WHEN THE DEATH FALLS WITHIN THE PURVIEW OF THE CORONER'S OFFICE AND -- WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, SIR?

A: WELL, WHEN IT COMES UNDER ONE OF THE SECTIONS THAT WE JUST PREVIOUSLY READ ABOUT WHETHER IT'S AN ACCIDENTAL DEATH AND NOT WITHIN 20 DAYS AND IN CUSTODY OR AS A NARCOTICS OR HANDS OF ANOTHER.

Q: SO THESE DEATHS WOULD COME WITHIN THAT PURVIEW; WOULD THEY NOT?

A: I WOULD THINK SO.

Q: AND THIS WILL ALLOW THE CORONER TO BE MORE EFFECTIVELY DEPLOYED, THAT THE CORONER BE MORE EFFECTIVELY DEPLOYED RESOURCES THROUGHOUT THE CITY AND REDUCE POTENTIAL DELAYS AND RESPONSES TO DEATH SCENES; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: BY THE CORONER'S OFFICE, YES.

Q: AND THEN THE CHIEF GOES ON TO SAY: "THIS ORDER REVISES PROCEDURES FOR NOTIFICATIONS TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE," RIGHT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND PURSUANT TO THIS, BASED UPON WHEN YOU RECEIVED THIS ORDER -- YOU RECEIVED THIS ORDER, DID YOU OUT, IN WEST LOS ANGELES?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND THEN ONCE YOU RECEIVED THIS ORDER, YOU PROCEEDED TO TRY AND IMPLEMENT IT, DID YOU NOT, ON CASES YOU WERE INVESTIGATING?

A: YES.

Q: AND YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASSUME, WOULD YOU NOT, THAT THE DETECTIVES AT ROBBERY-HOMICIDE, WHICH IS A DOWNTOWN UNIT IN PARKER CENTER, ALSO RECEIVED THIS ORDER; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: I WOULD HAVE NO IDEA IF THEY RECEIVED IT.

Q: WOULDN'T YOU THINK THAT GENERAL DISTRIBUTION, AN ORDER FROM THE CHIEF OF POLICE WOULD GO TO ALL UNITS?

A: I WOULD IMAGINE THAT THEY GOT IT DOWN THERE, BUT I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE IF THEY GOT IT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND. BUT IT WAS IN GENERAL CIRCULATION. YOU GOT IT OUT IN WEST LOS ANGELES?

A: YES, I DID.

Q: AND IT GOES ON TO SAY, DOES IT NOT, THAT: "THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER AT THE SCENE OF A DEATH WHICH REQUIRES NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER SHALL MAKE THE NOTIFICATION IMMEDIATELY UPON DETERMINING THAT THE DEATH FALLS WITHIN THE PURVIEW OF THE CORONER'S OFFICE." IS THAT WHAT IT SAYS?

A: YES, IT DOES.

Q: "IF THE CORONER IS NOT IMMEDIATELY NEEDED AT THE SCENE, THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER SHALL ADVISE THE CORONER OF AN APPROXIMATE TIME WHEN THE CORONER'S DEPUTY CAN RESPOND"; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: "AND IF NO TIME CAN BE ESTIMATED, THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER SHALL ARRANGE TO MAKE A SECOND NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER WHEN RESPONSE IS APPROPRIATE"; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: ALL RIGHT.

THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, I THINK YOU HAVE A COPY.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY KINDLY. THANK YOU. THANKS, MARCIA.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, BEFORE WE GET BACK TO THE TAPE, THIS PARTICULAR SECTION WE'RE JUST READING NOW, SPECIAL ORDER NUMBER 21, CHANGED THE POLICY AS IT EXISTED PRIOR TO NOVEMBER 17TH, 1993, RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: AND IT TALKED ABOUT IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION. DID YOU EVER ASK CHIEF WILLIAMS OR ANYBODY IN THE CHIEF'S OFFICE WHAT HE MEANT BY IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION?

A: NO, I'VE NEVER DISCUSSED IT WITH HIM.

Q: DID YOU EVER HAVE ANY TRAINING OR SEMINARS TO WHAT THEY MEANT ABOUT IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION?

A: WELL, I KNOW WHAT THEY'RE REFERRING TO, BUT THIS IS A BLACK AND WHITE THING YOU ARE REFERRING TO AND I DEAL IN THE GRAY AREA OUT HERE. WHEN YOU WALK OUT TO A CRIME SCENE, YOU JUST DON'T IMMEDIATELY TURN AROUND AND MAKE A PHONE CALL TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE. YOU HAVE TO SEE WHAT YOU HAVE, YOU HAVE TO INVESTIGATE WHAT YOU HAVE, YOU HAVE TO TALK TO SOME CERTAIN PEOPLE. AND SO AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE, YOU IMMEDIATELY MAKE THAT NOTIFICATION. IT'S NOT ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS YOU DO WHEN YOU GET TO A CRIME SCENE. NEVER HAS BEEN, MR. COCHRAN.

Q: I UNDERSTAND. BUT I'M TALKING TO YOU NOW ABOUT THIS CHANGE IN THE CHIEF'S OFFICE NOVEMBER 17TH, 1993, WHICH I BELIEVE YOU TOLD US CAME ABOUT BECAUSE THE CORONER'S OFFICE HAD SOME KIND OF COMPLAINTS OR CONCERNS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: WELL, AS I TOLD YOU, I WASN'T AWARE OF THE COMPLAINTS THAT WERE BEING MADE AND I WASN'T AWARE OF THE INVESTIGATION, BUT I THINK THE COMPLAINT WAS BASICALLY BECAUSE WE WOULD CALL AND THEN WE WOULD WAIT HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS FOR A CORONER'S OFFICE TO SHOW UP. SO THIS WAS IMPLEMENTED SO IT WOULD CUT DOWN ON OUR DELAY TIME IN WAITING FOR A CORONER AND THEIR TIME WHEN THEY WERE GOING TO ARRIVE. SO WE WOULD BOTH WORK TOGETHER TO WHERE WE COULD GET THE CORONER'S OFFICE OUT THERE AT THE TIME WHEN WE WERE READY FOR THEM.

Q: WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME THAT WAITING FROM 12:15 TO 6:50 IN THE MORNING -- YOU THINK THAT'S IMMEDIATE FOR THE FIRST CALL?

A: WELL, NO, BUT THE CIRCUMSTANCES OUT THERE DICTATED THAT. AND AS IT SAYS, AS YOU READ FARTHER ON IN THIS SPECIAL ORDER, WHY WE WAITED FURTHER.

Q: I SEE. BUT YOU SAID THE CIRCUMSTANCES DICTATED. BUT IF IT IMPINGES UPON THE ABILITY OF THE CORONER TO DO THEIR JOB AND SOMEBODY'S FREEDOM MIGHT ALSO BE DETERMINED BY THE --

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

MR. COCHRAN: I'M TRYING TO FINISH THE QUESTION.

MS. CLARK: THIS IS NOT --

THE COURT: IT'S ARGUMENTATIVE.

MR. COCHRAN: WELL, LET ME SEE IF I CAN RESTATE IT IN A LESS ARGUMENTATIVE FASHION, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: IF THE CORONER IS NOT BEING NOTIFIED, AFFECTED THE CORONER IN DETERMINING CAUSE OF THE TIME OF DEATH IN A PARTICULAR CASE, DO YOU THINK THAT'S A PRETTY IMPORTANT CIRCUMSTANCE?

A: IF THAT OCCURRED.

Q: AND DID YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE CERTAINLY MORE IMPORTANT THAN NOTIFYING THE PRESS RELATIONS OFFICER DOWNTOWN ABOUT THE PRESS BEING -- CRAWLING ON THE SCENE LIKE ANTS, YOU COMPARED THE TWO, DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD BE MORE IMPORTANT?

A: WELL, THE CORONER'S OFFICE WAS NOTIFIED, MR. COCHRAN.

Q: NO. I'M ASKING, IF YOU COMPARED THE PRESS RELATIONS OFFICERS, IN YOUR CONCERNS WITH THAT, WITH THE NOTIFICATION OF THE CORONER WHO COULD THEN COME OUT AND START A PROCESS BY WHICH HE COULD PERHAPS WITH GREATER SPECIFICITY DETERMINE THE CAUSE OF DEATH, WOULDN'T YOU THINK THAT'S MORE IMPORTANT?

A: WELL, IT WOULD BE MORE IMPORTANT TO HAVE THE CORONER OUT THERE, SURE, THAN IT WOULD BE TO NOTIFY THE CORONER'S OFFICE -- THE PRESS RELATIONS OFFICER, BUT YOU GET THEM BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU'VE ANSWERED THE QUESTION. THANK YOU.

MR. COCHRAN: NOW, YOUR HONOR, IF WE MIGHT, MAY WE PROCEED WITH THE TAPE NOW?

THE COURT: YES.

(AT 11:51 TO 11:51 DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1019, AN AUDIOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, AT THAT POINT, WHEN HE ASKED, "IF WE HAVE NAMES ON THOSE PEOPLE," YOU SAID, "NO, I DON'T," RIGHT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND YOU DIDN'T -- AT THAT TIME, YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO TELL HIM ANYTHING ABOUT SIMPSON OR ANY OTHER NATURE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT? THIS IS YOUR FIRST CALL, RIGHT?

A: I DIDN'T HAVE THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE.

Q: BUT I AM SAYING, YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO TELL HIM ANYTHING ABOUT IT EVEN BEING HIGH PROFILE AT THIS POINT. THIS WAS YOUR FIRST NOTIFICATION; WAS IT NOT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND SO YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANY ACTUAL NAMES, RIGHT?

A: DIDN'T HAVE BOTH NAMES.

Q: OKAY. YOU SUSPECTED ONE NAME, BUT YOU SAID, "DO WE HAVE" -- WHEN WILLIS ASKED YOU, "DO WE HAVE NAMES OF THESE PEOPLE," YOU SAID, "NO, I DON'T," RIGHT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. LET'S CONTINUE ON.

(AT 11:52 TO 11:53, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1019, AN AUDIOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU THEN KIND OF VOLUNTEERED THAT IT WAS THE EX-WIFE OF A PROMINENT SPORTSCASTER OR WHATEVER, WAS A HIGH PROFILE; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: YES, I DID.

Q: AND HE HAD NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT AT THIS POINT. YOU WERE JUST TRYING TO GET A NUMBER TO GET THEM ALERTED, WEREN'T YOU? ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: WELL, HE ASKED ME A QUESTION AND I GAVE HIM AN ANSWER.

Q: WELL, WAIT A MINUTE. YOU ARE A POLICE OFFICER AND PEOPLE ASK YOU QUESTIONS ALL THE TIME AND YOU DON'T WANT TO ANSWER; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?

A: SOMETIMES, SOMETIMES NOT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO IN THIS INSTANCE, IF YOU WERE CONCERNED ABOUT KEEPING THIS MATTER QUIET AND NOT GETTING ANY GREAT PUBLICITY, THERE WAS NO OBLIGATION ON YOU TO SAY TO MR. WILLIS THAT, "IT'S GOING TO BE A HIGH PROFILE TYPE DEAL, IT'S THE EX-WIFE OF A VERY PROMINENT SPORTSCAST STAR OR SPORT CELEBRITY." YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO TELL THEM THAT, DID YOU?

A: I DIDN'T HAVE TO, NO.

Q: BUT YOU DID, DIDN'T YOU?

A: I DID.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, HE THEN GOES ON AND ASKS YOU, "CAN YOU GIVE ME THE NAME"; IS THAT CORRECT?

MR. COCHRAN: PICK IT UP THERE.

(AT 11:54 TO 11:54, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1019, AN AUDIOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: SO NOW, YOU TOLD HIM YOU HAD TO TRUST HIM ON THIS. DID YOU KNOW THIS MAN BEFORE THIS, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?

A: OH, I'VE TALKED TO HIM BEFORE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. BUT HAD YOU EVER MET HIM PERSONALLY?

A: I MAY HAVE.

Q: WELL --

A: WELL, I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN I MET A LOT OF GUYS DOWN AT THE CORONER'S OFFICE. I MAY HAVE MET THE MEAN, I MAY NEVER HAVE MET THE MAN. I RECOGNIZED THE NAME FROM CALLING IN SEVERAL TIMES.

Q: OH, I UNDERSTAND. BUT YOU CAN'T -- AS YOU SIT HERE NOW, CAN YOU PLACE THE FACE WITH THE PERSON?

A: I BELIEVE SO.

Q: ALL RIGHT. WELL, WOULD YOU -- WERE YOU SUCH GOOD FRIENDS THAT YOU COULD TRUST HIM ON THIS?

A: WELL, HE'S A CORONER'S OFFICE EXAMINER I AM CALLING TO AND TALKING TO. SO I DID TRUST HIM.

Q: ALL RIGHT. BUT IF YOU WANTED TO KEEP THIS LOW PROFILE AND KIND OF A SECRET AT THIS POINT, WHY WOULD YOU SHARE THIS WITH HIM? IT WASN'T NECESSARY AT THIS POINT, WAS IT?

A: IT WASN'T NECESSARY, BUT I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS UNNECESSARY EITHER. SO I JUST DID.

Q: SO YOU DID AT ANY RATE. ALL RIGHT.

A: THAT'S RIGHT.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. LET'S GO ON, MR. HARRIS.

(AT 11:55 TO 11:55, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1019, AN AUDIOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, AGAIN, YOU HAD -- BY THE TIME YOU MADE THIS CALL AT 6:50, YOU FELT THAT YOU SHOULD TELL THIS PERSON ON THE OTHER END OF THE PHONE THAT O.J. SIMPSON WAS IN CHICAGO?

A: EVIDENTLY I DID. I DID.

Q: WELL, I MEAN YOU HEARD --

A: I SAID EVIDENTLY I DID. SO I MUST HAVE TOLD HIM.

Q: ALL RIGHT. LET'S CONTINUE ON.

(AT 11:55 TO 11:56, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1019, AN AUDIOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

MR. COCHRAN: STOP THERE.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, HE WAS ASKING AT THIS POINT WHETHER OR NOT THE CORONER'S OFFICER COULD COME OUT RIGHT THEN; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND YOU HADN'T MADE A CALL BEFORE THIS, HAD YOU?

A: NO.

Q: SO WITH REGARD TO THIS FIRST CALL POLICY, ON SOME TIMES, THE CORONER COULD COME IMMEDIATELY AT THE TIME OF THE FIRST CALL; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: OKAY. NOW, AT THIS POINT, SINCE YOU WERE JUST DOING A FAVOR FOR DETECTIVE LANGE -- IS THAT CORRECT? YOU HAD TO TALK TO TOM LANGE ABOUT WHAT COMES NEXT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: TOM LANGE WAS REQUESTING I MAKE THIS PHONE CALL FOR HIM.

Q: OKAY. LET'S PROCEED ON THEN.

(AT 11:57 TO 11:57, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1019, AN AUDIOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME, THE BEST WAY OF NOT GETTING SOMETHING OUT IS NOT TO TELL SOMEBODY?

A: IN HINDSIGHT, YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. I JUST WANTED TO SEE IF WE AGREE ON THAT.

MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. CONTINUE ON.

(AT 11:58 TO 11:58, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1019, AN AUDIOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. NOW, AFTER THAT THAT CALL WAS AT 6:49 IN THE MORNING, AND THAT WAS THE SO-CALLED FIRST CALL, AFTER THAT, YOU STILL REMAINED AT THE SCENE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: I JUST STOOD AROUND, YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. OKAY. AND YOU HAD OCCASION TO MAKE ANOTHER CALL WHICH WE NOW WAS ABOUT 8:08; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND YOU HAVE THE TRANSCRIPT BEFORE YOU.

MR. COCHRAN: I WILL ASK MR. HARRIS BEFORE WE BREAK FOR LUNCH, YOUR HONOR, TO PLAY -- THIS IS THE SECOND PART OF THE TAPE, THE SECOND TAPE.

(AT 11:58 TO 12:02, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1019, AN AUDIOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: WHO WERE YOU TALKING TO? TOM LANGE?

A: TOM LANGE.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.

(AT 12:02 TO 12:02, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1019, AN AUDIOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, JUST TO -- IN THIS PORTION, SIR, THAT CALL STARTED 8:08 AND APPARENTLY LASTED MAYBE 10 MINUTES OR SO. WERE YOU STILL AT THE SCENE BY 10:00 O'CLOCK?

A: I'M SORRY. WAS I --

Q: WERE YOU STILL AT BUNDY THERE UNTIL 10:00 O'CLOCK THAT MORNING, A.M.?

A: I BELIEVE SO.

Q: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT TIME THE CORONER FINALLY ARRIVED THAT MORNING?

A: NO. I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CRIME SCENE LOG TO KNOW THAT, SIR.

Q: AND WOULD THE CRIME SCENE LOG HELP YOU IN DETERMINING THAT?

A: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: WELL, WE'LL FIND THAT OUT RIGHT AFTER LUNCH. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. PERHAPS THAT WOULD BE AN APPROPRIATE PLACE.

THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE'RE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS FOR THE NOON HOUR. PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITIONS TO YOU; DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONGST YOURSELVES, DON'T FORM ANY OPINIONS, DON'T ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU REGARDING THE CASE, DON'T CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED AT THE CONCLUSION OF THE CASE. AND WE WILL RECONVENE AT 1:30. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, YOU ARE EXCUSED UNTIL 1:30. WE'LL STAND IN RECESS. THANK YOU, COUNSEL.

(AT 12:05 P.M., THE NOON RECESS WAS TAKEN UNTIL 1:30 P.M. OF THE SAME DAY.)

LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 16, 1995 1:30 P.M.

DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE

APPEARANCES: (APPEARANCES AS HERETOFORE NOTED.)

(JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR NO. 4855, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)

(CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR NO. 2378, OFFICIAL REPORTER.)

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. MR. SIMPSON IS AGAIN PRESENT WITH HIS COUNSEL. THE PEOPLE ARE REPRESENTED. THE JURY IS NOT PRESENT. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS IS PRESENT IN THE COURTROOM ON THE WITNESS STAND. MR. DOUGLAS, YOU HAD SOMETHING YOU WANTED TO ADDRESS TO THE COURT BEFORE WE INVITE THE JURORS TO REJOIN US?

MR. DOUGLAS: DURING OUR CROSS-EXAMINATION OF MR. PHILLIPS WE WOULD INTEND --

MR. COCHRAN: WE MAY WANT TO HAVE HIM STEP OUT.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, WHY DON'T YOU STEP OUTSIDE THE COURTROOM AND WAIT FOR US, PLEASE.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: THAT IS OKAY. THANK YOU. EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. ONE PERSON AT A TIME. I VIOLATED THE RULE.

THE COURT: AGAIN.

MR. DOUGLAS: DURING THE CROSS-EXAMINATION OF MR. PHILLIPS, YOUR HONOR, WE ARE -- WE WOULD LIKE TO SHOW PORTIONS OF A VIDEOTAPE THAT WE RECEIVED YESTERDAY. NBC APPARENTLY RENTED THE ROCKINGHAM -- THE BUNDY CONDOMINIUM ON TUESDAY AND TOOK A TOUR AND AMONG THE ITEMS THAT THEY SHOWED ON THE TOUR WAS THE TELEPHONE WITH THE SPEEDY DIALER AND CERTAIN NOTATIONS SUCH AS "DADDY" AND "DIITA" AND "CORA" AND "ROBIN" AND "PAM" AND WE WOULD LIKE TO SHOW THAT TO MR. PHILLIPS, BUT WE WOULD LIKE TO SHOW THE TAPE RIGHT NOW.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT BEFORE WE HAVE -- HAS THE PROSECUTION SEEN IT?

MS. CLARK: NO.

MR. DOUGLAS: WE JUST GOT IT YESTERDAY.

MR. COCHRAN: JUST SHOWN YESTERDAY.

MR. DOUGLAS: JUST ON T.V. YESTERDAY.

MR. BAILEY: IT WAS ON THE TODAY SHOW.

MR. DOUGLAS: CORRECT. WITHOUT THE SOUND.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. HARRIS, DO WE HAVE THIS AVAILABLE, PLEASE?

MR. HARRIS: YES, YOUR HONOR. IT IS COMING UP NOW.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

MR. DOUGLAS: YOUR HONOR, WE WOULD INTEND SHOWING ONLY THE PORTION DEALING WITH THE TELEPHONE, BUT WE ARE JUST GIVING CONTEXT RIGHT NOW.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

(AT 1:33 P.M., A VIDEOTAPE, WAS PLAYED.)

THE COURT: DO WE HAVE FREEZE FRAME CAPABILITY ON THIS VCR?

MR. DOUGLAS: YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: THERE IS OUR REALTOR AND SHE WAS VERY GRACIOUS DURING OUR TOUR OF THE CRIME SCENE.

MR. DOUGLAS: RIGHT THERE.

MR. COCHRAN: FREEZE TIME.

MR. DOUGLAS: IT SAYS, "DADDY, DIITA, OPA, CORA, ROBIN AND PAM" AND DIITA AND OPA IS GERMAN FOR GRANDMA, GRANDPA.

MS. CLARK: NO. DIITA IS NOT. DIITA IS THE NAME.

THE COURT: DIITA IS JUDITHA.

MR. DOUGLAS: YES, YOUR HONOR, I'M SORRY.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. JUST THAT ONE LITTLE SPOT.

MR. COCHRAN: YES, YOUR HONOR.

MR. DOUGLAS: WE WANT TO GIVE HIM CONTEXT SO EVERYONE CAN SEE WHERE THAT COMES IN.

THE COURT: CAN YOU BACK THAT UP A LITTLE, MR. HARRIS.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I TAKE IT THIS IS IN THE NATURE OF A 402 HEARING THAT WE ARE CONDUCTING NOW?

MR. DOUGLAS: YES, YOUR HONOR, IT IS.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. YOU MAY PROCEED.

MR. DOUGLAS: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: DO YOU HAVE SOME QUESTIONS THAT YOU WANT TO ASK OF DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?

MR. DOUGLAS: AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME THERE WILL BE.

MR. DARDEN: FREEZE FRAME JUST THE TELEPHONE, RIGHT.

MR. COCHRAN: JUST THE TELEPHONE.

MR. DARDEN: NO OBJECTION.

THE COURT: MR. HARRIS, CAN WE HAVE GET UP TO THAT SPOT SO WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE JUST FROZEN ON?

MR. HARRIS: YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: THERE IT IS RIGHT THERE. SEE IF YOU CAN GET A SHARPER FRAME.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. ANYTHING ELSE BEFORE WE PROCEED?

MS. CLARK: MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT WITH COUNSEL, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: CERTAINLY.

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. COUNSEL, HAVE WE FINISHED OUR PREPARATIONS?

MR. COCHRAN: I THINK WE ARE READY. I WANT HIM TO GET THE AUDIOTAPE BACK IN AND THEN I THINK WE ARE READY TO PROCEED, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MR. COCHRAN: IT WILL JUST TAKE A SECOND.

THE COURT: DO YOU NEED TO CUE THAT TAPE UP, MR. COCHRAN?

MR. COCHRAN: I HAVE JUST ASKED HIM TO CUE IT UP TO A PARTICULAR POINT, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. HOLD ON.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: MISS CLARK.

MS. CLARK: THIS WITNESS NEVER SAW THE SPEED DIALER. WHY ARE WE SHOWING THIS WITNESS?

THE COURT: WELL, THEY CAN ASK IF HE SAW IT. YOU SAID YOU HAD NO OBJECTION TO IT BEING SHOWN.

MS. CLARK: AND I DON'T. I DON'T MIND IT BEING SHOWN. THE THING IS THAT IT SHOULD BE SHOWN WITH THE WITNESS WHO SAW IT, WHICH IS WAITING -- WHO IS WAITING TO TESTIFY RIGHT AFTER THIS ONE.

THE COURT: HOLD ON. MISS CLARK, DO YOU HAVE AN OBJECTION TO SHOWING IT?

MS. CLARK: IN GENERAL, NO. WITH THIS WITNESS THE ONLY PROBLEM IS THERE IS NO FOUNDATION HERE. THERE IS NO REASON TO SHOW TO IT A WITNESS WHO NEVER SAW IT. THERE IS NOTHING TO BE GAINED BY IT. DETECTIVE LANGE, WHO WILL TESTIFY IMMEDIATELY AFTER DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, DID.

MR. COCHRAN: THIS IS CROSS-EXAMINATION AND IT WILL NOT PROLONG THE SITUATION.

THE COURT: WHAT IS THE RELEVANCE IF THIS WITNESS NEVER SAW IT?

MR. COCHRAN: IT MAY NOT BE RELEVANT IF HE NEVER SAW IT, YOUR HONOR, BUT WE KNOW THAT ONLY BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT WE WENT UP AND HE JUST TOLD ME.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR --

MR. COCHRAN: WHO SAYS I WOULD EVEN ASK HIM?

MS. CLARK: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS JUST TOLD COUNSEL THAT HE DIDN'T SEE IT. MR. COCHRAN: I SAID THAT, COUNSEL. I SAID THAT, AND I'M NOT -- I'M NOT GOING TO BE WASTING TIME AND THERE WILL BE OTHER OFFICERS HERE, AS LONG AS SHE REPRESENTS SOMEBODY SAW THAT SPEED DIALER. IS THAT YOUR REPRESENTATION?

MS. CLARK: THAT IS. THAT IS.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: YOU KNOW, IT IS PART OF THE CROSS-EXAMINATION, YOUR HONOR. THEY MAY WANT TO KNOW IF HE DIDN'T SEE IT.

MS. CLARK: CROSS-EXAMINATION DOES HAVE TO BE RELEVANT, DOESN'T IT?

THE COURT: IT DOES.

MR. COCHRAN: I DON'T WANT TO ARGUE IT WITH THE WITNESS HERE, BUT THAT IS A POINT I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE. WHEN WE GET TO THAT POINT I WILL APPROACH THE BENCH.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHEN WE GET TO THAT POINT.

MS. CLARK: I'M GOING TO ASK FOR A SIDE BAR, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: WELL, WE ARE HERE.

MR. COCHRAN: I SAID --

MS. CLARK: LET'S DO IT NOW.

THE COURT: LET'S TALK ABOUT IT.

MR. COCHRAN: OKAY.

THE COURT: WE AGREE THAT IT IS PROBABLY THE SPEED DIALER THAT WAS THERE?

MR. COCHRAN: WE SURELY DO, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHAT IS THE POINT -- THIS IS NOT THE DETECTIVE. THIS IS SOMEBODY WHO TOOK A CURSORY RUN-THROUGH.

MR. COCHRAN: WELL, JUDGE, HE WAS IN CHARGE FOR TWO HOURS, FROM 2:10 TO 4:10. HE WAS INSIDE THAT HOUSE ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS. HE WANTED TO KNOW WHERE O.J. SIMPSON --

THE COURT: YOU ARE RIGHT.

MR. COCHRAN: IF THERE IS A SPEED DIALER IN THE KITCHEN THAT HAS "DADDY," YOUR HONOR --

THE COURT: I JUST SAID YOU ARE RIGHT.

MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, HE WAS NOT INSIDE FROM 2:10 TO 4:10.

THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND.

MS. CLARK: THE TESTIMONY MAKES THAT VERY CLEAR.

THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT MR. COCHRAN IS MAKING THE POINT THAT THERE WAS THE ABILITY TO JUST WALK OVER TO THE PHONE, IF THEY KNEW -- SINCE THEY KNEW THAT SYDNEY -- SYDNEY AND JUSTIN WERE THE CHILDREN OF MR. SIMPSON AND IF THERE IS A DADDY ON THE SPEED DIALER, THERE WAS AN EASY WAY TO HAVE CONTACT AT THE RESIDENCE. THAT IS THE ONLY THING THAT IT IS WORTH AND THAT WILL TAKE ABOUT FORTY SECONDS WORTH OF TESTIMONY.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: WERE YOU AWARE OF THE SPEED DIALER? NO. DID YOU SEE THIS PHONE? NO, I DIDN'T. SOMEBODY ELSE WILL COME UP AND SAY WHAT IT IS. IT IS INTERESTING WHOSE NAME IS NOT ON THERE.

MR. COCHRAN: WHO IS THAT?

THE COURT: SIDE BAR WITHOUT THE REPORTER.

(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THAT WAS OUR ONE LIGHT MOMENT FOR THE DAY. ALL RIGHT. COUNSEL, LET'S HAVE THE JURY.

MR. COCHRAN: YES, WE ARE. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED. ALL RIGHT. GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

THE JURY: GOOD AFTERNOON.

THE COURT: THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT DETECTIVE RONALD PHILLIPS IS STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND.

RONALD PHILLIPS, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE NOON RECESS, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:

THE COURT: GOOD AFTERNOON, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.

THE WITNESS: GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR.

THE COURT: YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH. MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR.

CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

BY MR. COCHRAN:

Q: GOOD AFTERNOON, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.

A: GOOD AFTERNOON.

Q: WHEN WE BROKE AT LUNCHTIME WE WERE GOING TO SEE THROUGH YOUR NOTES OR THE LOG WHICH HAS BEEN MARKED NOW AS DEFENSE EXHIBIT 1006, WHAT TIME THE CORONER FINALLY ARRIVED IN THIS MATTER TO THE BUNDY LOCATION. DO YOU HAVE SOME NOTES WHICH WOULD HELP YOU IN THAT REGARD, SIR?

A: NO. I REVIEWED THE CRIME LOG AT THE D.A.'S OFFICE.

Q: IN THE D.A.'S OFFICE OVER THE LUNCH HOUR?

A: YES.

Q: WERE YOU TALKING WITH MISS CLARK DURING THAT TIME?

A: YES.

Q: AND WITH MR. DARDEN?

A: MISS CLARK.

Q: AND AT THAT TIME, IN REVIEWING THAT CRIME LOG, DID IT ASSIST YOU IN DETERMINING WHAT TIME THE CORONERS FINALLY ARRIVED AT THE BUNDY STREET LOCATION ON JUNE 13, 1994?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AND WHAT TIME WAS THAT, SIR?

A: 9:10 IN THE MORNING.

Q: AND YOU WERE AWARE THAT OFFICER RISKE FIRST DISCOVERED THESE BODIES SOMETIME AROUND 12:10 WHEN HE ARRIVED; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: THIS WAS SOME NINE HOURS AFTER THAT; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: NOW, WITH REGARD TO -- BEFORE WE FINALLY LEAVE THE TAPE, YOUR HONOR, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT AS WE PASSED THE TRANSCRIPT OUT TO THE JURY, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WE NUMBERED THAT. I WOULD ASK LEAVE NOW TO NUMBER THAT 1019, DEFENDANT'S 1019 AND THE TAPE -- THE TAPE WILL BE 1019 AND THE TRANSCRIPTS WHICH THE JURY HAD WILL BE 1019-A IF THE COURT PLEASES.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MR. COCHRAN: WE HAVE DONE THAT WITH THE CLERK OVER THE LUNCH HOUR, YOUR HONOR.

(DEFT'S 1019 FOR ID = AUDIOTAPE) (DEFT'S 1019-A FOR ID = TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIOTAPE)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD JUST LIKE TO GO BACK BRIEFLY, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, TO THAT TAPE THAT WE PLAYED THIS MORNING.

Q: WITH REGARD TO YOUR STATEMENT THAT WE'RE KIND -- "WE KIND OF NOT FOLLOWING PROCEDURE," WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THAT, WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE FACT YOU WEREN'T FOLLOWING PROCEDURE IN GIVING IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER?

A: NO.

Q: BUT YOU WEREN'T FOLLOWING THAT PROCEDURE EITHER, WERE YOU, AT THAT TIME?

A: OKAY.

Q: "BUT WE'RE KIND OF ASKING A FAVOR." NOW, IN SAYING THAT, YOU WERE ASKING THIS MAN WILLIS A FAVOR AT THAT POINT, THE CORONER'S OFFICE?

A: I WAS ASKING A FAVOR, YES.

Q: OKAY. LET ME GET TO IT. "WE'RE KIND OF ASKING A FAVOR AND, YOU KNOW, KIND OF WORK A LITTLE BIT ON THIS ONE." REMEMBER USING THOSE WORDS?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHEN -- AT THAT POINT, WHEN YOU TOLD HIM YOU WEREN'T FOLLOWING PROCEDURE, IT WAS ABOUT 6:50 A.M. ON THE 13TH, RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: AND AT THAT POINT HE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL EXCEPT THERE WAS A DOUBLE HOMICIDE OUT AT BUNDY; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: HE DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WERE MALES OR FEMALES OR WHATEVER; ISN'T THAT CORRECT, AT THAT POINT?

A: WELL, SOMETIME IN THE CONVERSATION I TOLD HIM THEY WERE MALE AND A FEMALE.

Q: I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE IT BEFORE YOU BUT THIS IS AT THE VERY FIRST POINT OF THE CONVERSATION, AND AT THAT POINT YOU JUST SAID YOU HAD A DOUBLE HOMICIDE, I BELIEVE.

A: OKAY.

Q: SO HE WOULD ONLY FIND OUT THAT WHICH YOU WOULD TELL HIM; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND SO IF YOU HAD WANTED, TO AS AN EXPERIENCED DETECTIVE, YOU COULD HAVE JUST TOLD HIM THAT WE HAVE A DOUBLE HOMICIDE OUT HERE ON BUNDY, WE ARE NOT READY FOR YOU YET, WE WILL CALL YOU BACK, GIVE US SOME NUMBERS AND LET US KNOW HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE TO GET OUT HERE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT? YOU COULD HAVE DONE THAT, COULDN'T YOU?

A: COULD IT HAVE BEEN DONE THAT WAY, SURE.

Q: NOW, TOM LANGE DIDN'T INSTRUCT YOU, WHEN YOU WERE DOING HIM A FAVOR, TO GO AND TELL HIM THIS WAS THE EX-WIFE OF A VERY PROMINENT SPORTSCAST STAR OR SUPPOSED CELEBRITY? TOM LANGE DIDN'T TELL YOU TO DO THAT, DID HE?

A: NO, BUT I WAS INFORMING THE CORONER'S OFFICE OF THAT.

Q: THE QUESTION IS TOM LANGE DIDN'T ASK YOU TO TELL THE CORONER'S OFFICE, DID HE?

A: NO, HE DID NOT.

Q: YOU DID THAT ON YOUR OWN, DIDN'T YOU?

A: YES, I DID.

Q: AND WHEN HE ASKED YOU "CAN YOU GIVE ME THE NAME," THAT IS WHAT WILLIS ASKED YOU AND YOU SAID: "WELL, I -- YOU ARE NOT -- YOU ARE NOT GOING TO LET -- NOT GOING TO LET THIS" AND HE GOES AND SAYS, "NO, I'M AN INVESTIGATOR." YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO GIVE HIM THE NAME EITHER, DID YOU?

A: I DID NOT HAVE TO GIVE IT TO HIM.

Q: AND WHEN YOU STOPPED TO REFER TO A TOM DURING THE PROGRESS OF THIS TAPE, YOU WERE TALKING TO TOM LANGE WHO WAS THEN ONE OF THE INVESTIGATORS FROM ROBBERY/HOMICIDE?

A: HE WAS THE LEAD INVESTIGATOR ON THE CASE.

Q: WAS HE THE LEAD INVESTIGATOR OR WAS VANNATTER THE LEAD?

A: AT THE BUNDY LOCATION AT THAT TIME OF THE MORNING HE WAS THE LEAD INVESTIGATOR BECAUSE VANNATTER WAS SOME PLACE ELSE.

Q: VANNATTER WAS NOT THERE AT THAT POINT?

A: NO, HE WAS NOT.

Q: AS BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM, WHEN THEY WERE BOTH AT BUNDY, VANNATTER IS THE LEAD; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, MR. COCHRAN, I DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE OF THOSE TWO IS THE LEAD INVESTIGATOR ON THIS CASE. I KNOW THEY ARE JOINT LEAD INVESTIGATORS. IF ONE OUTRANKS THE OTHER OR HAS MORE TIME, I DON'T KNOW.

Q: OKAY. I WANT YOU TO BE HONEST WITH US.

A: I AM. I DON'T KNOW.

Q: THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU. NOW, WHEN YOU TALKED TO MR. WILLIS ON THIS TAPE HE ASKED YOU -- STRIKE THAT. MR. WILLIS SAID: "OKAY. ARE THESE BOTH GUNSHOT WOUNDS?" AND YOUR RESPONSE WAS ESSENTIALLY: "THEY WERE EITHER SHOT OR BLUDGEONED TO DEATH"; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT IS WHAT I SAID.

Q: AND SO AT 6:49 TO SEVEN O'CLOCK, AT THAT TIME IN THE MORNING YOU DID NOT KNOW HOW THESE TWO INDIVIDUALS HAD LOST THEIR LIVES; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?

A: I MADE A MISTAKE, MR. COCHRAN. I SHOULD NEVER HAVE SAID THAT STATEMENT WITHOUT KNOWING HOW THEY DIED.

Q: I KNOW. I UNDERSTAND -- I'M NOT CRITICIZING YOU MAKING A MISTAKE. THAT IS NOT ABOUT CRITICIZING YOU. I'M JUST ASKING YOU AT THAT TIME YOU DIDN'T KNOW HOW THEY DIED?

A: NO, I DIDN'T.

Q: THAT IS THE POINT, THAT YOU DID NOT KNOW, SO THAT WHEN YOU TALKED TO MR. SIMPSON SOME TIME AROUND, WHAT TIME, SIX O'CLOCK --

A: I BELIEVE IT WAS 6:05.

Q: -- YOU DIDN'T KNOW HOW THESE PEOPLE HAD DIED, HAD YOU -- DID YOU?

A: I DID NOT KNOW HOW THEY DIED.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND SO WHEN YOU MAKE THE STATEMENT THEY WERE EITHER SHOT OR BLUDGEONED TO DEATH, THAT WAS SPECULATION ON YOUR PART, BUT YOU JUST DIDN'T KNOW HOW THEY DIED AT THAT POINT; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?

A: THAT'S RIGHT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE CRIME SCENE LOG, SINCE YOU LOOKED AT IT OVER THE LUNCHTIME, UNDER "PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN," WHAT TIME DID YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN LEAVE THE SCENE -- LEAVE THE BUNDY SCENE THAT MORNING, PER THE LOG?

A: I DON'T BELIEVE IT IS ON THE LOG, SIR.

Q: WELL, LET ME SEE -- I WILL APPROACH, IF I MIGHT, WITH 1006. YOU ARRIVED THERE AT ABOUT 2:10, RIGHT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: OKAY. LET ME APPROACH. I WANT YOU JUST TO READ IT TO YOURSELF, FIRST OF ALL, WHERE IT SAYS "PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN INVESTIGATORS." LOOK OVER THIS. CAN YOU READ THAT TO YOURSELF?

A: IT SAYS, "TIME LEFT, TEN O'CLOCK." I THOUGHT YOU MEANT THE FIRST TIME I LEFT THE LOCATION.

Q: DOES IT SHOW THAT YOU LEFT AT SOME POINT IN BETWEEN THERE?

A: NO, IT DOES NOT.

Q: ISN'T IT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE OFFICER WHO LEAVES TO TELL THE OFFICERS KEEPING THE LOG THAT I'M LEAVING NOW AND I'M GOING SOMEPLACE ELSE? IS THAT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY?

A: THAT IS SOMETHING I SHOULD HAVE DONE OUT OF COURTESY TO THAT MAN WHO WAS DOING THE LOG AND I DIDN'T DO IT.

Q: I UNDERSTAND. THIS IS NOT PICK ON YOU TODAY.

A: I'M JUST TELLING YOU, I DIDN'T TELL HIM.

Q: I APPRECIATE IT. SO WHEN HE SAYS THAT YOU WERE THERE FROM 2:10 TO TEN O'CLOCK, THAT IS NOT EXACTLY ACCURATE, IS IT?

A: THAT IS NOT ACCURATE.

Q: IT WAS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE OFFICERS, AS THEY CAME AND WENT, TO TELL THE OFFICER WHOSE NAME IS CUMMINGS, I BELIEVE, WHO IS KEEPING THAT LOG; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: IT WOULD -- IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN MY BEST INTEREST TO TELL HIM. THERE WAS SO MUCH ACTIVITY HE COULD NOT KEEP TRACK OF EVERYBODY.

Q: YES. SO HE RELIED UPON EVERYBODY DOING THEIR JOBS IN WRITING THIS DOWN; IS THAT RIGHT, SIR?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: OKAY. NOW, AT SOME POINT, THOUGH, DID YOU LEAVE -- DID YOU AND FUHRMAN LEAVE AT TEN O'CLOCK THAT MORNING, LEAVE THE BUNDY SCENE TO GO SOMEPLACE?

A: I DON'T THINK IN RECALLING THAT FUHRMAN AND I EVER LEFT A SECOND TIME TOGETHER, OTHER THAN THE FIVE O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING CALL. I BELIEVE I LEFT THE BUNDY LOCATION AT TEN O'CLOCK AND THAT IS PROBABLY WHAT HE PUT DOWN AS THE TIME THAT I WAS LEAVING. FUHRMAN AND I DID NOT TEAM UP AGAIN UNTIL MUCH, MUCH LATER IN THE DAY.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO WHERE IT SAYS "FUHRMAN AND PHILLIPS LEFT AT TEN O'CLOCK," THAT IS ALSO WRONG, RIGHT?

A: THAT IS ME LEAVING AT TEN O'CLOCK.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AS FAR AS YOU KNOW THAT WAS NOT FUHRMAN LEAVING AT TEN O'CLOCK?

A: NO.

Q: BUT YOU WILL AGREE THAT IN THE LOG BOTH PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN ARE ON THE SAME LINE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S TRUE.

Q: FOR A MOMENT -- YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT FUHRMAN. YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN ARE VERY, VERY CLOSE, AREN'T YOU?

A: WE HAVE BEEN PARTNERS FOR FOUR OR FIVE YEARS AND I'VE GOTTEN TO CONSIDER MYSELF A FRIEND OF HIS, YES.

Q: FRIEND? YOU SEE EACH OTHER OFF WORK?

A: VERY, VERY RARELY.

Q: BUT DON'T YOU WORK ON SOME KIND OF MOONLIGHTING JOBS? DON'T YOU DO WORK -- OFF-DUTY WORK WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN? HAVEN'T YOU DONE THAT?

A: I HAVE DONE THAT, BUT WE DON'T WORK TOGETHER.

Q: BUT YOU HAVE BOTH WORKED AND DONE MOONLIGHTING JOBS?

A: YES.

Q: SAME EMPLOYERS?

A: YES.

Q: AND OVER WHAT PERIOD OF TIME DID YOU DO THAT?

A: MAYBE A YEAR, YEAR AND A HALF, TWO YEARS.

Q: AGO OR JUST THAT LASTED FOR A YEAR, YEAR AND A HALF, TWO YEARS?

A: WELL, I HAVEN'T WORKED AT THAT LOCATION IN PROBABLY OVER A YEAR, SO IT IS --

Q: OKAY.

A: A YEAR AND A HALF BEFORE THAT.

Q: OKAY. ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF BEFORE THAT AND YOU WORKED AT THIS -- THE LOCATION -- I WON'T ASK YOU THE LOCATION. YOU WORKED AT THE LOCATION FOR A YEAR, AT LEAST A YEAR, THE TWO OF YOU DID?

A: I THINK HE MIGHT HAVE WORKED THERE LONGER THAN I DID AND WORKED THERE AFTER I DID. I'M NOT SURE WHEN HE LEFT THAT EMPLOYMENT. I KNOW THAT I DID.

Q: OKAY. THERE WAS A PERIOD OF TIME WHEN YOU BOTH WORKED AT THIS LOCATION, RIGHT?

A: BOTH WORKED THERE BUT NOT TOGETHER, SIR; ONLY ONE AT A TIME.

Q: ALL RIGHT. BUT BOTH WORKED FOR THE SAME EMPLOYER?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AND THAT AT THE TIME YOU BOTH WORKED THERE WAS AT LEAST A YEAR; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG HE WORKED THERE, SIR, AND I DON'T KNOW IF I WORKED THERE A WHOLE YEAR. I MAY HAVE. IT WAS CLOSE TO A YEAR.

Q: ALL RIGHT. BUT AT ANY RATE, YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF A FRIEND OF HIS AND YOU WORKED TOGETHER FOR HOW MANY YEARS ALTOGETHER NOW?

A: I THINK MARK CAME TO THE ROBBERY UNIT IN -- I WANT TO SAY PROBABLY '91. HE WORKED UP IN DETECTIVES, BUT I DID NOT HAVE HIM AS A PARTNER AT THAT TIME. HE WORKED ANOTHER TABLE, COMPLETELY SEPARATE TABLE, SO I REALLY DIDN'T GET TO KNOW HIM UNTIL WE WORKED THE ROBBERY TABLE TOGETHER. I THINK THAT WAS '91.

Q: SO THAT WAS '91, SO A MINIMUM OF THREE YEARS BEFORE THIS HAPPENED?

A: THAT'S CORRECT, YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU KNEW WHO HE WAS BUT YOU BECAME CLOSE AND PARTNERS AFTER '91; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: WE BECAME CLOSE AS PARTNERS, YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND. SO WHEN YOU RECEIVED THE CALL THAT MORNING TO COME OUT AND RESPOND TO THESE -- THIS HOMICIDE AT 875 BUNDY, DID YOU TELL SERGEANT ROSSI THAT YOU WOULD CALL DETECTIVE FUHRMAN YOURSELF?

A: I ALWAYS CALL THE DETECTIVES OUT, SO I DID TELL HIM THAT I WOULD CALL DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND ALL THE OTHER DETECTIVES. I DO THAT ON EVERY CALLOUT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. BUT DID YOU -- DID YOU SAY SPECIFICALLY, "DON'T CALL FUHRMAN, I WILL CALL HIM"?

A: NO. I SAYS, "YOU DON'T HAVE TO CALL ANYBODY, I WILL MAKE THE NOTIFICATIONS," WHICH I ALWAYS DO.

Q: WERE YOU AWARE THAT ROSSI MADE A NUMBER OF OTHER CALLS, IN ADDITION TO CALLING YOU?

A: I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY PHONE CALLS THAT ROSSI MADE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. BUT AT ANY RATE, YOU THEN CALLED FUHRMAN YOURSELF; IS THAT RIGHT, SIR?

A: HE IS THE FIRST DETECTIVE I CALLED, YES, FROM MY RESIDENCE.

Q: WHAT TIME WAS IT AFTER YOU RECEIVED YOUR CALL?

A: I BELIEVE I RECEIVED MY CALL RIGHT AROUND ONE O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, A MINUTE OR TWO BEFORE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND THEN WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU CALLED DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

A: I BELIEVE I CALLED HIM AT 1:05 IN THE MORNING.

Q: ALL RIGHT. I PRESUME AT THAT TIME OF MORNING BOTH OF YOU WERE AT HOME?

A: THAT IS WHERE I GOT HIM AND THAT IS WHERE I WAS AT, YES.

Q: OKAY. THEREAFTER THE TWO OF YOU THEN MADE PLANS TO COME TO WEST LOS ANGELES STATION; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: I MADE THE PLANS TO MEET HIM AT WEST L.A. STATION TO PICK UP THE HOMICIDE UNIT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, PRIOR TO THAT TIME, SINCE '91, THE TWO OF YOU HAD BEEN PARTNERS; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: WELL, PARTNERS IN THAT WE WORK THE ROBBERY TABLE TOGETHER. THERE WAS FOUR OF US THAT WORKED THE ROBBERY TABLE. I HAD BUSINESSES AND FOLLOW-HOME ROBBERIES ON ONE SIDE OF THE TABLE WITH A PARTNER. MARK FUHRMAN HAD STREET ROBBERIES AND CARJACKING ROBBERIES AND HE SAT DIRECTLY ACROSS FROM ME ON THE OTHER TABLE AND HE HAD A PARTNER. THERE WAS FOUR OF US THAT WORKED THAT TABLE.

Q: SO WHEN YOU SAY "TABLE" YOU MEAN KIND OF LIKE A DESK OR A TABLE?

A: FIVE TABLES -- FIVE DESKS ALTOGETHER RUN BY A ROBBERY COORDINATOR.

Q: IN WEST LOS ANGELES?

A: IN WEST LOS ANGELES.

Q: SO THERE WAS A PERIOD OF TIME WHERE YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WERE PARTNERS IN CONJUNCTION WITH SOME OTHER DETECTIVES WHO WORKED THERE ALSO; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT.

A: AND WE HELPED EACH OTHER OUT ON THEIR CASES. IF HE NEEDED SOME HELP ON HIS CASES, THEN ME AND MY PARTNER WOULD HELP HIM AND VISA-VERSA SO WE DID WORK CASES TOGETHER, BUT HE WOULD HELP ME OUT ON MY CASES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND THAT.

A: OKAY.

Q: WHO WERE THE OTHER OFFICERS OR DETECTIVES INVOLVED IN THIS TABLE, THIS ROBBERY TABLE?

A: WELL, THERE WERE SEVERAL OVER THAT PERIOD OF TIME. ONE OF THE SPOTS THAT WE HAD THERE -- WHEN I SAY "SPOTS," ONE OF THE DESKS -- WAS A TRAINEE SPOT THAT THE TRAINEE WOULD COME IN AND ONLY LAST -- NOT LAST -- BUT ONLY STAY AT THAT POSITION FOR SIX MONTHS.

Q: THIS IS A HIGH STRESS BUSINESS, I KNOW?

A: BUT I TELL YOU, THEY ARE GOING TO BE MAD AT ME NOW, BUT THEY WOULD STAY THERE FOR SIX MONTHS AND THEN WE WOULD ROTATE THEM THROUGH THE REST OF THE TABLES, THE BURGLARY TABLE AND THE AUTO TABLE AND SO FORTH, TO GET THEM A WELL-ROUNDED EXPERIENCE.

Q: ALL RIGHT.

A: SO THAT PARTICULAR TABLE MOVED AROUND A LOT.

Q: WHO WAS CONSTANT? WHO STAYED THERE FROM '91 TO '94? ANY DETECTIVE WHO HAS BEEN THERE IN ADDITION TO YOU AND FUHRMAN?

A: JUST THE COORDINATOR IS THE ONLY ONE THAT IS STILL THERE THAT WAS THERE WHEN I WAS THERE WITH MARK FUHRMAN AND THAT IS THE COORDINATOR OF THE ROBBERY UNIT.

Q: WHO IS THAT?

A: ROBERT TAPIA.

Q: SO AT ANY RATE, WHEN YOU CALLED MARK FUHRMAN AT HOME AT 1:05, SOMEONE YOU WORKED WITH OVER A PERIOD OF TIME AND SOMEONE YOU KNEW; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: WELL, YEAH, HE WORKED MY HOMICIDE UNIT.

Q: YOU WORKED WITH HIM?

A: YES.

Q: WHEN YOU SAW HIM THAT MORNING BEFORE YOU GOT TO THE STATION -- BEFORE YOU WENT OUT TO ROCKINGHAM, YOU DESCRIBED, I THINK YESTERDAY, THAT HE RARELY WORE A JACKET. DO YOU REMEMBER YOU SAYING THAT?

A: YES.

Q: AND DID HE HAVE A JACKET ON WHEN YOU FIRST SAW HIM THAT MORNING?

A: NO.

Q: WOULD YOU BE SURPRISED TO LEARN THAT LATER THAT DAY ON ROCKINGHAM HE HAD A BLUE BLAZER ON?

A: IT WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME AT ALL.

Q: OKAY. WELL, DID YOU SEE HIM AT SOME POINT PUT ON A BLAZER WITH THOSE SLACKS YOU SAW HIM IN IN THOSE PICTURES?

A: HE TAKES IT OFF AND PUTS IT ON AND TAKES IT OFF AND PUTS IT ON ALL THE TIME AND DIFFERENT TIMES HE HAS IT AND DIFFERENT TIMES HE DOESN'T.

Q: OKAY. SO IN OTHER WORDS, HE HAS A JACKET; HE DOESN'T ALWAYS WEAR IT? IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?

A: HE USUALLY LEAVES IT IN THE CAR.

Q: ALL RIGHT. BUT HE HAS A JACKET SOMEWHERE AROUND?

A: HE HAS ALWAYS GOT ONE WITH HIM.

Q: I WANTED TO CLEAR THAT UP. HE HAS A JACKET WITH HIM, HE MAY NOT ALWAYS WEAR IT; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: YES, HE ALWAYS HAS A JACKET IN THE CAR OR AT THE CRIME SCENE.

Q: SO YOU WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED TO SEE HIM AT ROCKINGHAM LATER THAT DAY WITH A BLUE BLAZER?

A: NO, NOT AT ALL.

Q: NOW, AFTER THE TWO OF YOU GOT TO THE STATION, DID YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN THEN GO IN ONE CAR TO THE BUNDY LOCATION?

A: YES, WE DID.

Q: OKAY. THEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE LOCATION AND YOU HAVE DESCRIBED FOR US YOUR ARRIVAL THERE AT ABOUT WHAT TIME? 2:10 IN THE MORNING?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHEN YOU GOT THERE AT 2:10 IN THE MORNING, YOU WERE THE SENIOR AS BETWEEN YOU AND FUHRMAN; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: IN ADDITION TO BEING THE SENIOR, YOU WERE ALSO KIND OF A COORDINATOR OF HOMICIDE ACTIVITY OUT THERE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: WELL, I'M THE HOMICIDE COORDINATOR FOR WEST LOS ANGELES DIVISION. I ALSO OUTRANK HIM.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU WERE SENIOR?

A: YES.

Q: IN THIS REGARD YOU WERE SENIOR ALSO TO SERGEANT ROSSI WHO WAS THERE AS THE FIELD SERGEANT AT THAT POINT, RIGHT? YOU OUTRANK HIM?

A: IT IS NOT REALLY AN OUTRANKING. WE ARE BASICALLY THE SAME RANK BECAUSE THERE IS DIFFERENT TWO RANK STRUCTURES HERE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. ONE IS A PATROL RANK STRUCTURE, THAT'S CORRECT, AND ONE IS A DETECTIVE RANK STRUCTURE. A DETECTIVE 3, WHICH I AM, AND A SERGEANT 2, WHICH HE IS, I THINK THE ONLY -- THE REASON SOMEONE MIGHT THINK I OUTRANKED HIM IS BECAUSE I MAY MAKE A COUPLE OF DOLLARS MORE A YEAR THAN HE DOES.

Q: IS THAT WHY HE THOUGHT IT?

A: BUT AS FAR AS RANK GOES, WE ARE BASICALLY EQUAL. IT DEPENDS ON WHETHER YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A PATROL FUNCTION, THEN HE WOULD BE THE SUPERVISOR IN CHARGE. IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A DETECTIVE FUNCTION, THEN I WOULD BE THE SUPERVISOR IN CHARGE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AT ANY RATE ONCE YOU GOT TO THE SCENE, THIS BEING A HOMICIDE OR TWO HOMICIDES, YOU WERE THE RANKING OFFICER; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: SO FROM 2:10 IN THE MORNING UNTIL APPROXIMATELY 4:10, WHEN WE HAVE THE ARRIVAL OF PHIL VANNATTER, YOU WERE IN CHARGE OF THIS CRIME SCENE; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: NO. I WAS IN CHARGE OF THAT CRIME SCENE UNTIL 2:38 THAT MORNING WHEN I MADE A PHONE CALL TO CAPTAIN GARTLAND AND I WAS RELIEVED OF THAT RESPONSIBILITY OF BEING IN CHARGE OF THAT CRIME SCENE.

Q: WELL, LET'S SEE NOW. SO 2:10 -- YOU WERE IN CHARGE FROM 2:10 TO 2:38, RIGHT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: VANNATTER DIDN'T COME UNTIL 4:10, DID HE?

A: 4:05 OR 4:10.

Q: SOMETIME AFTER FOUR O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING?

A: RIGHT.

Q: SO YOU WERE STILL THE RANKING HOMICIDE DETECTIVE AT THAT SCENE UNTIL VANNATTER ARRIVED; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: I WAS THE RANKING HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, BUT LIEUTENANT SPANGLER OUTRANKED ME AND CAPTAIN CONNIE DIAL OUTRANKED ME, WHO WERE ALSO AT THAT LOCATION.

Q: AREN'T THEY LIKE IN MANAGEMENT? YOU ARE THE NUTS AND BOLTS. YOU ARE THE MAN WHO IS THE HOMICIDE DETECTIVE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: ARE THE MAN WHO IS THE COORDINATOR FOR WEST LOS ANGELES, RIGHT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. WHAT YOU ARE TELLING US IS THAT AT 2:38, WHEN YOU TALKED TO CAPTAIN GARTLAND WHO IS IN CHARGE OF ROBBERY/HOMICIDE DOWNTOWN, A DECISION HAD BEEN MADE TO TRANSFER THIS CASE TO ROBBERY/HOMICIDE BECAUSE OF THE GREATER PROLIFERATION OF PERSON POWER DOWNTOWN AND RESOURCES? IS THAT WHAT YOU TOLD US?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: YOU WERE STILL A HOMICIDE DETECTIVE OUT THERE AT THAT SCENE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: IF SOMETHING NEEDED TO BE DONE, THEN I WOULD HAVE DONE IT, BUT SINCE NOTHING HAD TO BE DONE, I WASN'T IN CHARGE OF ANYTHING. I WAS JUST MERELY STANDING AROUND, AS EVERYBODY ELSE WAS, WAITING FOR THE HOMICIDE DETECTIVES THAT WERE IN CHARGE OF THAT INVESTIGATION TO ARRIVE.

Q: WHEN YOU WERE STANDING AROUND OUT THERE, JUST STANDING AROUND WAITING FOR SOMETHING TO BE DONE, DID ANYBODY EVER BRING UP THE SUBJECT, GEE, WE MIGHT WANT TO DETERMINE THE TIME OF DEATH HERE BECAUSE THAT MIGHT BE IMPORTANT IN A CASE IF A CASE IS EVER BROUGHT? DID YOU GUYS EVER BRING THAT UP?

A: NO.

Q: NOBODY EVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT?

A: NOT THAT WE DIDN'T THINK ABOUT IT; NOBODY BROUGHT IT UP.

Q: NOBODY SAID THAT? OKAY. WELL, IT IS TRUE, IS IT NOT, THAT AT ABOUT 2:50 IN THE MORNING YOU DECIDED -- YOU REMEMBERED THOSE REGULATIONS IN THE POLICE MANUAL AND YOU REMEMBERED THAT SECTION THAT MADE IT A MISDEMEANOR NOT TO CALL THE CORONER AND YOU DECIDED I BETTER CALL THE CORONER, DIDN'T YOU?

A: I DIDN'T REMEMBER THE SECTION ABOUT BEING A MISDEMEANOR. I DIDN'T REMEMBER THAT AT ALL. WHAT I WAS MERELY GOING TO DO WAS MAKE FIRST CALL NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE ABOUT WHAT WE HAD. I WAS NOT ASKING REQUESTING THEM TO COME TO THAT LOCATION.

Q: YOU TOLD US AT 2:10 YOU WANTED TO MAKE A CALL TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE, RIGHT?

A: TO MAKE FIRST NOTIFICATION THAT WE HAD A DOUBLE HOMICIDE OUT IN WEST LOS ANGELES; NOT TO ASK THE CORONER'S OFFICE TO RESPOND.

Q: OKAY. LET ME FINISH THE QUESTION.

A: OKAY.

Q: AT 2:50 YOU WERE GOING TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE, RIGHT?

A: FIRST CALL NOTIFICATION.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AS A GOOD DETECTIVE YOU KNEW THAT WAS IMPORTANT TO DO; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: I WAS GOING TO DO IT AS A COURTESY. THAT IS ALL I WAS GOING TO DO IT FOR. IT MEANT NOTHING OTHER THAN TO MAKE THAT PHONE CALL.

Q: WHO WERE YOU DOING A COURTESY FOR?

A: JUST TO GET PHONE CALL OUT OF THE WAY.

Q: YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, IN RESPONSE TO ONE OF MISS CLARK'S QUESTIONS, ISN'T THERE A CERTAIN QUESTION OF DIGNITY OF THESE BODIES LAYING OUT, WOULDN'T YOU ALSO WANT TO GET THOSE MOVED AT SOME POINT?

A: YEAH, BUT EVEN IF I HAD MADE THAT PHONE CALL, MR. COCHRAN, THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THE CORONER'S OFFICE RESPOND AT THAT TIME.

Q: BUT SIR, WOULDN'T THEY BE THAT MUCH FURTHER AHEAD IF THEY KNEW AT 2:50 THEY NIGHT GET OUT THERE BEFORE 9:10? WOULDN'T THAT BE SOMETHING YOU MIGHT BE CONCERNED ABOUT AT ALL AS A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR?

A: IT WOULD HAVE MADE NO DIFFERENCE UPON THEIR ARRIVAL. IF I MADE THAT CALL AT 2:50 OR 6:50, THE CORONER'S CAME AFTER WE TOLD THEM TO COME.

Q: SO THAT WE ARE CLEAR, THE LAPD CONTROLS WHEN THE CORONER'S OFFICE COMES? THAT IS YOUR POLICY, RIGHT?

A: THEY DON'T COME OUT THERE UNTIL WE CALL THEM UP AND TELL THEM WE ARE READY FOR THEM TO RESPOND.

Q: YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT THEY ARE UPSET ABOUT THAT POLICY?

A: NO ONE HAS EVER TOLD ME THAT THEY WERE UPSET ABOUT IT AND I HAVEN'T READ ANYTHING ABOUT THEM BEING UPSET ABOUT IT. I KNOW WE TRY TO WORK TOGETHER BETTER AS TIME GOES ON. WE TRY TO IMPROVE THINGS SO OUR RESPONSE TIME AND THEIR RESPONSE TIME IS BETTER FOR BOTH AGENCIES, SO THERE IS NOT SO MUCH DOWN TIME. I KNOW WE ARE CONSTANTLY TRYING TO IMPROVE THINGS.

Q: TRYING TO IMPROVE YOUR COORDINATION AND COMMUNICATION?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: SO AT ANY RATE, YOU HAD DECIDED TO MAKE THE FIRST CALL AT 2:50, BUT LIEUTENANT SPANGLER TOLD YOU DON'T DO THAT, GAVE YOU AN ORDER NOT TO; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: SO YOU DIDN'T MAKE THE CALL THEN?

A: I DID NOT MAKE THE CALL.

Q: YOU CONTINUED TO STAND AROUND AT THIS SCENE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: OKAY. NOW, AT SOME POINT YOU WERE SHOWN -- MISS CLARK TOOK YOU THROUGH ALL THIS -- THIS LITANY OF PLACES THAT YOU WENT. YOU WERE SHOWN AROUND THE SCENE OF THE CRIME; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: JUST CURSORY, YES.

Q: OKAY. WELL, CURSORY.

A: SHOWN AROUND THE SCENE, YES, SIR.

Q: ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. AT SOME TIME YOU WERE SHOWN INSIDE THE HOUSE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: ONE OF THE REASONS YOU WANTED TO GO INSIDE THE HOUSE, AS AN EXPERIENCED HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, WAS TO HIM GET A VIEW OF WHAT WAS GOING ON SO THAT YOU COULD BRIEF VANNATTER AND LANGE WHEN THEY CAME AS TO WHAT YOU HAD THERE; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?

A: NO. THE CALL -- THE SEARCH -- NOT THE SEARCH, THE CURSORY LOOK THAT I DID THROUGH THAT RESIDENCE WAS DONE BEFORE I MADE THE CALL TO ROBBERY/HOMICIDE. I WAS DOING THAT BECAUSE IT WAS STILL OUR CASE.

Q: OKAY. I UNDERSTAND THAT. THAT IS BETWEEN 2:10 AND 2:38; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: THAT IS WHEN RISKE AND THE OTHERS SHOWED YOU AND FUHRMAN AROUND; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT NOW. YOU WENT INTO THE RESIDENCE, I BELIEVE, THROUGH THE BACK TO THE REAR PART OF THE RESIDENCE, RIGHT?

A: THROUGH THE GARAGE.

Q: OKAY. FIRST OF ALL, YOU -- I WANT TO CLEAR UP ONE THING, IF I CAN. YOUR HONOR, I WANT TO MARK THIS AS DEFENDANT'S NEXT, 1020.

THE COURT: 1020, ALL RIGHT.

(DEFT'S 1020 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

THE COURT: A PHOTOGRAPH.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN, THAT IS A PHOTOGRAPH?

MR. COCHRAN: YES, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF A BLACK JEEP AND I WOULD LIKE VERY MUCH TO PUT D-1020 ON IT AND I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH THIS -- THIS WITNESS AND ASK HIM ABOUT IT.

Q: I WANT TO SHOW YOU A BLACK JEEP CHEROKEE AND I WANT TO PLACE IT RIGHT BEFORE YOU AND ASK YOU --

A: PICK IT UP?

Q: PLEASE LOOK AT IT AND ASK YOU IF THAT APPEARS -- THAT YOU RECOGNIZE THAT JEEP?

A: I GUESS IT IS THE JEEP THAT WAS IN BACK OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY. I DON'T REMEMBER THE LICENSE NUMBER OF IT. AND THAT LOOKS LIKE IT IS PROBABLY THE PLACE.

Q: THE JEEP THAT YOU SAW IN THE BACK OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY, THAT WAS A BLACK JEEP, WASN'T IT?

A: YES.

Q: IT WASN'T DARK GREEN, WAS IT.

A: MAY I? LOOKS LIKE A BLACK JEEP TO ME, SIR.

Q: OKAY. WELL, LET'S SHOW IT ON THE ELMO AND SEE IF WE ALL AGREE IT IS BLACK. MAY I SHOW IT ON THE ELMO?

THE COURT: YOU MAY.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, THAT IS THE JEEP; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: OKAY. AND THAT AREA AROUND THE JEEP -- SO THAT LITTLE MARKING IN THE FRONT, RIGHT BY THE RIGHT FRONT TIRE THERE, DO YOU SEE THAT MARKING? IS THAT AN LAPD MARKING OF SOME KIND?

A: I DON'T SEE THE MARKING.

Q: ONE OF THE RULERS?

A: I DON'T SEE THE MARKING YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, SIR.

Q: I'M SORRY. YOU CAN LOOK AND SEE THAT. SEE THAT LITTLE MARKING THERE? I WILL POINT IT OUT FOR YOU.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: RIGHT THERE. THANK YOU. I'M BEING OVERSHADOWED, YOUR HONOR.

Q: IS THAT AN LAPD MARKING THERE?

A: I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS, SIR. I CAN'T SEE IT WELL ENOUGH TO DECIDE WHAT IT IS.

Q: YOU CAN'T SEE IT. I UNDERSTAND. I UNDERSTAND. THERE WAS A TIME YOU COULD PROBABLY SEE THAT, RIGHT?

A: BEFORE THAT --

Q: DON'T ANSWER THAT. AT ANY RATE, THAT AREA WAS TO THE REAR OF THE 875 BUNDY LOCATION, RIGHT?

A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

Q: WHERE YOU SAW THE JEEP?

A: YES.

Q: OKAY. AND BACK THERE, BY THE WAY, DIDN'T YOU TESTIFY WASN'T THERE SOME CHANGE ON THE GROUND BACK THERE?

A: YES.

Q: AND WERE THERE SOME DIMES AND PENNIES BACK AT THAT LOCATION?

A: I DO NOT RECALL AT ALL WHAT THE CHANGE DENOMINATION WAS.

Q: OKAY. AT ANY RATE, AFTER YOU -- YOU WENT PAST THIS JEEP, YOU WENT INSIDE THE HOUSE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: EVENTUALLY, YES.

Q: OKAY. NOW, LET ME ASK YOU THIS: WAS THERE ROOM ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THAT JEEP FOR ANOTHER VEHICLE TO BE PULLED ALONGSIDE THERE, IF YOU RECALL, THAT IS ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE JEEP?

A: I DON'T -- I WOULD SAY PROBABLY NOT, BUT THEN THERE IS SOME AWFUL SMALL CARS, SO I WOULD SAY NORMALLY NO.

Q: ALL RIGHT.

A: WHAT I REMEMBER, NO.

Q: DO YOU REMEMBER HOW MUCH SPACE WAS BETWEEN THE JEEP AND THE FENCE?

A: IT WASN'T THAT MUCH SPACE BUT I DON'T RECALL WHAT IT IS.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, IN LOOKING AT THE JEEP, YOU NOTICED -- I BELIEVE YOU TOLD US THAT THE DOOR WAS AJAR ON THAT JEEP, RIGHT?

A: WELL, IT LOOKED LIKE IT HAD BEEN CLOSED BUT IT DIDN'T CLOSE ALL THE WAY TO WHERE THE LOCK LATCHED ALL THE WAY. IT WAS JUST AJAR MAYBE A HALF AN INCH OR SOMETHING.

Q: ALL RIGHT. WHAT IS YOUR -- I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU, WHAT IS YOUR RECOLLECTION? WAS IT ABOUT THREE INCHES BETWEEN THE DOOR AND THE CLOSING THERE? WAS ABOUT IT A THREE-INCH SPACE THERE?

A: YOU MEAN WHERE THE DOOR DIDN'T CLOSE ALL THE WAY?

Q: YES, SIR. YES, SIR.

A: I JUST RECALL IT WAS AJAR. I RECALL MAYBE A HALF AN INCH TO AN INCH.

Q: ALL RIGHT. IF SOMEBODY SAID IT WAS THREE INCHES, THEY WOULD BE WRONG?

A: I'M NOT SAYING THEY WOULD BE WRONG. MY RECOLLECTION IS IT IS A HALF AN INCH TO AN INCH. I COULD BE WRONG.

Q: I UNDERSTAND THAT. DID YOU GO LOOK? DID YOU GO WALK OVER TO IT AND LOOK?

A: DIDN'T PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO IT AFTER I WAS POINTED IT OUT ONE TIME.

Q: KIND OF A CURSORY LOOK?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: THEN YOU WENT INSIDE?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: WHEN YOU WALKED INSIDE YOU REMEMBER THAT BANISTER DOWN AT THE BOTTOM STAIRS? DID YOU SEE SOME ICE CREAM THERE, SOME MELTING ICE CREAM?

A: YES, SIR, I DID.

Q: NOW, LET'S TIME -- THIS WAS AT ONE WHAT TIME WOULD YOU HAVE GONE IN THERE? THIS WAS BETWEEN 2:10 AND 2:38?

A: YES.

Q: WHAT KIND OF ICE CREAM WAS THAT?

A: I HAVE NO IDEA.

Q: DOES THE NAME BEN AND JERRY'S?

A: I THOUGHT YOU MEANT THE FLAVOR.

Q: THE BRAND NAME. DOES THE NAME BEN AND JERRY'S RING A BELL?

A: IT WAS A BEN AND JERRY'S ICE CREAM CUP.

Q: CAN YOU ESTIMATE FOR US HOW BIG THAT CUP WAS AROUND THE BOTTOM?

A: PROBABLY A COUPLE OF INCHES. I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS -- I DON'T LIKE ICE CREAM THAT MUCH, I DON'T EAT IT THAT MUCH, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS A ONE-SCOOP CUP.

Q: ARE YOU AN EXPERT IN THIS AREA?

A: NO, NOT AT ALL. I VERY RARELY EAT ICE CREAM.

Q: SO WE SHOULDN'T TAKE YOUR WORD?

A: NOT AT ALL.

Q: IT LOOKED LIKE ALL ONE FLAVOR, THOUGH, TO YOU?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, BY THE WAY, AT THE TIME YOU SAW THIS, THIS IS BETWEEN 2:10 AND 2:38, RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: THIS PHOTOGRAPHER, ROKAHR -- FOR THE RECORD, R-O-K-A-H-R -- HE WAS AT THE SCENE BY THEN, WASN'T HE?

A: I DON'T THINK HE ARRIVED UNTIL, WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE LOG, SOMEWHERE THREE O'CLOCK, AT THREE O'CLOCK, THREE --

Q: WELL, OKAY. BEFORE WE TALK MORE ABOUT THE ICE CREAM, LET ME SHOW YOU A REPORT AND ASK YOU -- I WILL SHOW YOU TWO REPORTS.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: YOU MAY.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: I WANT TO SHOW YOU A REPORT FROM AN INDIVIDUAL BY THE NAME OF ROLF ROKAHR, R-O-L-F R-O-K-A-H-R. THIS REPORT WAS TAKEN ON 11/22/94 AND APPARENTLY IT WAS A TELEPHONIC INTERVIEW. I WANT YOU TO REVIEW AND READ THIS SECOND FULL PARAGRAPH, FIRST OF ALL. READ THAT TO YOURSELF.

A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.)

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR --

THE COURT: YES.

MS. CLARK: THERE WILL BE AN OBJECTION. I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH.

THE WITNESS: OKAY.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU READ THAT TO YOURSELF?

A: UH-HUH.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE OVER HERE AT THE SIDE BAR.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, WHAT HE IS GOING TO ATTEMPT TO DO IS IMPEACH ROLF ROKAHR WHO IS NOT A WITNESS IN THIS CASE, WHO IS NOT A WITNESS. WHEN ROLF IS CALLED, THAT IS FINE, BUT IN THE REPORT IT INDICATES -- AND YOU KNOW SOMETHING, NOW THAT I LOOK AT THIS, I THOUGHT THAT THIS DETECTIVE WAS THE ONE WHO TOOK THE STATEMENT. HE IS NOT; IT WAS CLIFF LEFALL WHO TOOK THE STATEMENT. HE IS GOING TO ATTEMPT TO IMPEACH ROLF ROKAHR WHO HAS NOT BEEN CALLED AS A WITNESS WITH RESPECT TO THE TIME OF ARRIVAL WHICH INDICATES IN HIS REPORT THAT HE ARRIVED HE THOUGHT AT ABOUT MIDNIGHT AND THE CRIME SCENE LOG SHOWS THAT HE ARRIVED AT APPROXIMATELY 3:25.

THE COURT: WELL, COUNSEL, HERE IS THE THING, THOUGH. SO FAR ALL THAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT MR. COCHRAN HAS ASKED MIGHT IT REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION TO LOOK AT ROKAHR'S REPORT. HE HAS LOOKED AT IT. THE ISSUE IS DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION TO WHEN THE PHOTOGRAPHER ARRIVED? HE CAN SAY YES OR NO. THAT IS WHERE WE ARE AT THIS POINT. WE ARE NOT GOING INTO WHAT THE REPORT SAYS.

MS. CLARK: I JUST WANTED THE COURT TO KNOW WHAT COUNSEL IS DOING.

THE COURT: I ASSUMED THAT, TOO.

MS. CLARK: WHY DON'T WE RESOLVE IT NOW.

THE COURT: I HAVE PLAYED THIS GAME BEFORE, TOO. THE POINT IS ALL HE HAS ASKED IS TO REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION. AT THIS POINT THAT IS ALL IT IS.

MR. COCHRAN: THIS ISN'T A GAME, JUDGE, BUT THAT IS NOT A GAME. I'M SERIOUS.

THE COURT: IT IS A SPORT.

MR. COCHRAN: I WAS TRYING TO CALL TIME OUT.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THE OBJECTION AT THIS POINT IS PREMATURE.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. YOU MAY RESUME.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

Q: NOW, YOU HAVE NOW READ THIS SECOND PARAGRAPH, HAVEN'T YOU, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AND DOES THIS REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO WHAT TIME THE PHOTOGRAPHER ROLF ROKAHR ARRIVED AT THE SCENE THAT NIGHT?

A: NO, IT DOESN'T.

Q: THAT DOESN'T HELP YOU AT ALL?

A: NO. I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CRIME SCENE LOG TO ASK WHAT TIME HE GOT THERE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. WELL, LET ME SHOW YOU THE CRIME SCENE LOG AND LET'S SEE TOGETHER WE CAN -- READ THAT TO YOURSELF ALSO.

THE COURT: THAT IS DEFENSE 1006.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THE OTHER HAS NOT BEEN MARKED YET?

THE WITNESS: KIND OF HARD TO -- KIND OF HARD TO READ. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT TIME IS. IT IS 03 SOMETHING AND 0315 I AM GUESSING.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: HARD TO READ; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: IMPOSSIBLE.

Q: NOW, BETWEEN THESE TWO DOCUMENTS, ONE INDICATING HE ARRIVED AT MIDNIGHT AND THE OTHER AT ABOUT --

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. OBJECTION.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED. HEARSAY.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.

Q: DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT --

MS. CLARK: THERE WILL BE A MOTION TO STRIKE COUNSEL'S QUESTION FROM THE RECORD.

THE COURT: THE OBJECTION IS SUSTAINED. THERE IS NO ANSWER.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THE PHOTOGRAPHER CAME THERE AT TWELVE O'CLOCK AND ARRIVED AT THE LOCATION BEFORE YOU AND FUHRMAN ARRIVED THERE?

A: I DON'T SEE HOW HE COULD HAVE DONE THAT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. CAN I ASK YOU THEN TO READ THIS NEXT PARAGRAPH TO YOURSELF.

A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) YES, SIR.

Q: HAVE YOU READ THAT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: DOES THAT IN ANY WAY REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?

A: WELL, I THINK IF I WERE READING THAT PARAGRAPH I WOULD HAVE TO ASSUME THAT HE HAD MYSELF AND FUHRMAN MIXED UP WITH VANNATTER AND LANGE.

Q: WELL, VANNATTER AND LANGE DIDN'T ARRIVE AT THE LOCATION BEFORE YOU DID, DID THEY?

A: VANNATTER AND LANGE ARRIVED AFTER THE PHOTOGRAPHER AND HE IS REFERRING TO THAT PARAGRAPH AS TO BEING TOLD TO TAKE OVERALL SCENES.

Q: YES.

A: I TOLD HIM TO TAKE THOSE OVERALL SCENES AND I DIDN'T GET THERE UNTIL 2:10 IN THE MORNING, SO I DON'T KNOW HOW HE COULD HAVE SAID THAT BEFORE I ARRIVED.

Q: BUT WHEN HE SAID EARLIER THAT HE HAD ARRIVED AT MIDNIGHT AND YOU PUT THE TWO TOGETHER, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO YOU?

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THAT ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

THE COURT: SUSTAINED.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: WELL, AS YOU SIT THERE RIGHT NOW, DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME THE PHOTOGRAPHER ARRIVED?

A: THE PHOTOGRAPHER ARRIVED AFTER I DID. I THOUGHT HE ARRIVED AFTER THREE O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING BECAUSE HE WALKED UP TO ME AND TALKED TO ME AND HE ASKED ME IF IT WAS OUR CASE AND I TOLD HIM IT HAD BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM US, IT WAS NOW ROBBERY/HOMICIDE'S CASE, AND HE SAID, "DO YOU MIND IF I GO AHEAD AND DO THE OVERALL PHOTOGRAPHS?" AND I SAID, "IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CRIME SCENE, IT WOULD SAVE SOME TIME. WHY DON'T YOU GO AHEAD AND DO THE OVERALL PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE STREETS, STREET SIGNS AND ALLEYS AND SO FORTH." I DIRECTED THAT PHOTOGRAPHER TO DO THAT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND SO THAT WE ARE CLEAR THAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT YOU AND FUHRMAN, WHEN YOU WENT OVER TO ROCKINGHAM THE FIRST TIME, DID YOU TAKE THE PHOTOGRAPHER WITH YOU?

A: NO.

Q: YOU NEVER SAID TO THE PHOTOGRAPHER TO FOLLOW US OVER TO ROCKINGHAM WHEN YOU WENT OVER TO GET GIVE THIS NOTIFICATION?

A: NO. FUHRMAN ASKED THE PHOTOGRAPHER TO GO BACK WITH HIM AFTER WE CAME BACK TO BUNDY AND THEN WE WENT -- HE WENT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM. FUHRMAN ASKED THE PHOTOGRAPHER TO GO WITH HIM AND THEN I MADE A NOTIFICATION TO SID TO SEND US OUT ANOTHER PHOTOGRAPHER BECAUSE WE HAD TWO CRIME SCENES.

Q: OKAY. THAT IS ALL FINE. MY QUESTION IS BEFORE YOU WENT OVER TO ROCKINGHAM, DID YOU EVER SAY TO THE PHOTOGRAPHER, ROKAHR, TO FOLLOW US OVER TO ROCKINGHAM ROAD BECAUSE THERE MAY BE ADDITIONAL VICTIMS THERE? DID YOU EVER MAKE THAT STATEMENT TO HIM?

A: I NEVER MADE THAT STATEMENT TO HIM, NO.

Q: DID FUHRMAN EVER MAKE THAT STATEMENT TO HIM IN YOUR PRESENCE?

A: NO.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AT ANY RATE, WHEN YOU FIRST SAW THIS ICE CREAM, WHAT TIME WAS IT?

A: I WOULD SAY SOMEWHERE AROUND 2:20, 2:25 THE FIRST TIME WE WALKED THROUGH THE RESIDENCE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. IT WAS SOMETIME AFTER THAT, IN YOUR ESTIMATION, THAT THERE WERE PHOTOGRAPHERS ON THE SCENE THERE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: WELL, AGAIN, I CAN'T TELL YOU THE EXACT TIME, BUT IT WAS AFTER THREE O'CLOCK WHEN THE PHOTOGRAPHER ARRIVED AND I ASKED HIM TO DO THE OVERALL PHOTOGRAPHS.

Q: WHEN YOU ASKED HIM TO DO THESE OVERALL PHOTOGRAPHS, DID YOU EVER ASK HIM TO PHOTOGRAPHER THE INTERIOR OF THAT RESIDENCE?

A: THAT IS PART OF THE CRIME SCENE. I DIDN'T ASK HIM TO DO THAT.

Q: YOUR ANSWER IS NO?

A: I DID NOT ASK HIM TO DO THAT.

Q: BUT WHILE YOU WERE THERE AND BEFORE YOU LEFT TO GO OVER TO ROCKINGHAM, YOU NEVER ASKED MR. ROKAHR OR ANY OTHER PHOTOGRAPHER TO TAKE ANY PICTURES OF THE INTERIOR OF THAT RESIDENCE; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?

A: NO, I DIDN'T.

Q: AND SPECIFICALLY YOU NEVER ASKED HIM TO PHOTOGRAPH THE ICE CREAM CUP, DID YOU?

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION. THIS WITNESS HAS ALREADY TESTIFIED THIS WAS NOT HAS CRIME SCENE, NOT HIS JOB TO DO. IT IS IRRELEVANT.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU UNDERSTAND THE LAST QUESTION?

A: I DID NOT DIRECT THE PHOTOGRAPHER TO TAKE ANY PHOTOGRAPHS INSIDE THAT RESIDENCE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, ONCE YOU GOT INSIDE THE RESIDENCE, YOU WENT THROUGH THE KITCHEN; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND ONCE YOU GOT INTO THE KITCHEN, YOU BECAME AWARE, DID YOU NOT, THAT A PHONE CALL HAD BEEN MADE FROM THE INTERIOR OF THAT RESIDENCE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: I DIDN'T -- WAS NOT MADE AWARE OF THAT UNTIL HOURS LATER.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND YOU KNEW, BY THE TIME YOU ENTERED THE RESIDENCE, DID YOU NOT, THAT THIS WAS THE HOME OF O.J. SIMPSON'S EX-WIFE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: AT THE TIME I ENTERED THE RESIDENCE THE FIRST TIME?

Q: YES, SIR.

A: I DID NOT KNOW THAT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN DID YOU BECOME AWARE OF THAT?

A: I CAN TELL YOU THAT I ASSUMED THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE CASE BECAUSE OF WHAT I WAS TOLD BY SERGEANT ROSSI, THAT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON MAY BE ONE OF THE VICTIMS. AS I WALKED THROUGH THE HOUSE I NOTICED PHOTOGRAPHS. NEVER HAVING SEEN NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON BEFORE, I WASN'T SURE IT WAS HER, BUT I DID SEE PHOTOGRAPHS OF O.J. SIMPSON WITH A FEMALE.

Q: YOU SAW HIS PICTURE INSIDE THE HOUSE, DIDN'T YOU?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND DID THAT HELP YOU THINK THAT WAS MRS. O.J. SIMPSON OR MRS. NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S RESIDENCE?

A: I WOULD HAVE HAD TO ASSUME IT WAS PROBABLY HER RESIDENCE, YES.

Q: NOW, IT IS TRUE, IS IT NOT, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, THAT UPON ARRIVAL AT THE CRIME SCENE, YOU MET LANGE AND VANNATTER AND YOU TOLD THEM THAT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON WAS THE EX-WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON THE WELL-KNOWN ATHLETE ACTOR? YOU TOLD THEM THAT?

A: SOMEONE HAD TOLD ME THAT EARLIER IN THE EVENING.

Q: THE QUESTION IS DID YOU TELL THEM THAT WHEN THEY ARRIVED?

A: YES, I DID.

Q: THAT IS THE QUESTION. YOU ALSO TOLD THEM AT THAT TIME THAT MR. SIMPSON AND MRS. NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON HAD BEEN EMBROILED IN PREVIOUS DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SITUATIONS, ONE OF THESE RESULTING IN MR. SIMPSON HAVING TO GO TO COURT? YOU TOLD THEM THAT, TOO, DIDN'T YOU?

A: I NEVER TOLD HIM THAT.

Q: SO IF DETECTIVE LANGE SO INDICATES IN HIS REPORT HE IS WRONG?

A: IF HE TELLS YOU THAT I TOLD HIM THAT, HE MAY HAVE LEARNED THAT FROM DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, BUT HE DIDN'T GET THE INFORMATION FROM ME. I NEVER KNEW THAT.

MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: YOU MAY.

THE WITNESS: SURE.

MR. COCHRAN: YOU BOTH GAVE ME PERMISSION. MAY I MARK THIS, YOUR HONOR?

THE WITNESS: I'M SORRY?

MR. COCHRAN: SORRY.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: I THINK I SHOULD MARK THIS YOUR HONOR, REFERRING TO THIS, AND I THINK THIS IS D-1021.

THE COURT: 1021.

MR. COCHRAN: 1021. I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH AND I HAVE SHOWN THIS TO COUNSEL, IF I MIGHT.

(DEFT'S 1021 FOR ID = 1-PG REPORT)

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: I WANT YOU TO ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS AFTER YOU READ THIS TO YOURSELF. I WANT YOU TO READ TWO PARAGRAPHS, PARAGRAPH 2 AND THE NEXT TO THE LAST PARAGRAPH, THAT ONE, TO YOURSELF, FIRST OF ALL.

A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) THIS PARAGRAPH HERE, (INDICATING)?

Q: YES, SIR, THAT ONE.

A: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) OKAY.

Q: NOW, YOU HAVE READ THOSE TWO?

A: YES.

Q: I WANT TO ASK YOU THEN, DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION, SIR, THAT YOU IN FACT TOLD DETECTIVE LANGE ABOUT THIS PREVIOUS INCIDENT INVOLVING MR. SIMPSON AND HIS EX-WIFE RESULTING IN HIM GOING TO COURT AND THAT MR. SIMPSON RESIDED AT 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM PLACE IN BRENTWOOD?

DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING LANGE AND LANGE AND/OR VANNATTER THAT WHEN THEY ARRIVED ON THE SCENE?

A: I NEVER KNEW THAT, SIR, SO I COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN THE ONE THAT TOLD HIM.

Q: IF LANGE PUTS THAT IN HIS REPORT HE IS ALL WRONG, RIGHT?

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT MISSTATES WHAT COUNSEL HAS READ IN. HE INDICATES HERE BY REFERENCE, WHAT COUNSEL IS TRYING TO INDICATE, THEY WERE INFORMED UPON ARRIVAL.

MR. COCHRAN: IS THAT AN OBJECTION? THIS SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

MS. CLARK: IT IS MISLEADING.

MR. COCHRAN: I WILL BE GLAD TO READ IT IN.

THE COURT: LET ME SEE THE DOCUMENT.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. MAY I APPROACH?

THE COURT: YOU MAY.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: MR. COCHRAN.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. CAN YOU READ THE NEXT TO THE LAST PARAGRAPH ALSO. THERE WILL BE SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING THAT.

THE COURT: YES, I READ IT.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. MAY I PROCEED?

THE COURT: YOU MAY.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, SO THAT WE ARE CLEAR ON THIS, DID YOU EVER SAY TO DETECTIVES LANGE AND/OR VANNATTER THAT WHEN THEY FIRST ARRIVED AT THE SCENE YOU WERE -- THEY WERE MET BY YOU? YOU ARE DETECTIVE 3 RON PHILLIPS, RIGHT?

A: (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

Q: IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: THE WEST LOS ANGELES DIVISION HOMICIDE COORDINATOR; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: "PHILLIPS STATED THAT VICTIM BROWN WAS THE EX-WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON, THE WELL-KNOWN ATHLETE ACTOR." DID YOU EVER SAY THAT?

A: NO.

Q: WELL, DIDN'T YOU TELL US YOU FOUND THAT OUT AT SOME POINT, SOMEBODY ELSE TOLD YOU THAT?

A: SOMEONE TOLD ME THAT LATER THAT NIGHT. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT BEFORE I GOT THERE.

Q: OKAY. BUT THIS IS AFTER THEY ARRIVED, SO IT IS AFTER YOU WERE THERE FOR A WHILE AND THEN ARRIVED AT 4:10.

A: ALL RIGHT.

Q: BY THAT TIME DID YOU KNOW IT?

A: I KNEW IT AFTER SOMEONE HAD TOLD ME I ARRIVED, YES.

Q: WHAT TIME WAS THAT?

A: SOME TIME BETWEEN 2:10 AND 4:30.

Q: OKAY. DID YOU KNOW IT BY THE TIME THAT LANGE AND VANNATTER ARRIVED?

A: I KNEW ABOUT HER BEING THE EX-WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON, YES.

Q: DID YOU TELL LANGE OR VANNATTER THAT?

A: I DON'T RECALL TELLING VANNATTER AND LANGE THAT THIS WAS -- I BELIEVE ANOTHER DETECTIVE DID. I DON'T BELIEVE I DID.

Q: DOES THIS REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION THAT YOU TOLD HIM THAT?

A: WELL, MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT I DIDN'T.

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, VAGUE. TOLD HIM WHAT?

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: DOES THIS REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?

A: MY RECOLLECTION, SIR, AFTER READING THAT AND BEFORE READING THAT, IS THAT I DID NOT GIVE THAT INFORMATION TO VANNATTER OR LANGE.

Q: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. "ADDITIONALLY, PHILLIPS STATED THAT MR. SIMPSON AND VICTIM 1 HAD BEEN EMBROILED IN PREVIOUS DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SITUATIONS, ONE OF THESE RESULTING IN THE ARREST OF MR. SIMPSON." DID YOU TELL HIM THAT?

A: NO, I DIDN'T.

Q: "MR. SIMPSON RESIDED AT 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM PLACE IN BRENTWOOD APPROXIMATELY TWO MILES FROM THE CRIME SCENE." DID YOU TELL HIM THAT?

A: I DID NOT TELL HIM THAT. THAT WAS BROUGHT UP AS WE MADE OUR DISCUSSION ABOUT GOING UP TO ROCKINGHAM BY DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AFTER TALKING TO OFFICER RISKE.

Q: BUT YOUR ANSWER IS NOT ALL ANOTHER STUFF? YOU NEVER TOLD HIM THAT; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: WELL, THESE THINGS CAME UP. AS FAR AS THE ADDRESS ON ROCKINGHAM CAME UP IN A DISCUSSION THERE AND ABOUT O.J. SIMPSON BEING THE EX-HUSBAND OF NICOLE BROWN CAME UP, BUT NOTHING I RECALL CAME UP ABOUT ANY DOMESTIC VIOLENCE OR THE FACT THAT THEY WENT TO COURT. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT UNTIL IN THIS CASE WAS LONG ON ITS WAY.

Q: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN NEVER TOLD YOU THAT HE RESPONDED TO THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION BACK IN 1985 AND HAD WRITTEN A REPORT IN 1989 FOUR YEARS LATER ABOUT THAT INCIDENT IN '85?

A: AFTER THIS CASE HE TOLD ME ABOUT IT, YES.

Q: I'M TALKING ABOUT THAT MORNING. HE DIDN'T TELL YOU THAT THAT MORNING, JUNE 13?

A: NO.

Q: HE NEVER TOLD YOU THAT?

A: NO.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND NOW, SO THAT WE ARE CLEAR, THIS DOCUMENT THAT I HAVE HERE -- MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: YES.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: THIS IS A FOLLOW-UP BY ONE OF THE DETECTIVES; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S TRUE.

MR. COCHRAN: IT SAYS -- SO THE RECORD IS CLEAR, IT SAYS, "MURDER FOLLOW-UP," YOUR HONOR, "DR 94-0817431/32, PAGE 2."

Q: AND THAT IS DEFENDANT'S 1021; IS THAT CORRECT, SIR?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, DID YOU ALSO INFORM THE DETECTIVES THAT MISS SIMPSON -- STRIKE THAT. WERE YOU ALSO INFORMED BY ARNELLE SIMPSON THAT HER FATHER WAS IN CHICAGO, ILLINOIS, AFTER LEAVING THE L.A. AREA LATE THE NIGHT BEFORE? DID SHE TELL YOU THAT?

A: SHE DID NOT TELL ME THAT. CATHY, AND I DON'T REMEMBER HER LAST NAME, IS THE ONE THAT TOLD ME THAT OVER THE TELEPHONE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. DID MISS SIMPSON TELL YOU, ARNELLE SIMPSON, THAT SHE HAD RETURNED HOME AT APPROXIMATELY ONE O'CLOCK AFTER ATTENDING THE MOVIES IN WESTWOOD?

A: SHE DIDN'T TELL ME THAT. I NEVER ASKED HER THAT QUESTION.

Q: OKAY. NOW, WHILE YOU WERE INSIDE THE HOUSE, DID YOU HEAR -- DID YOU GO IN THE LIVING ROOM AREA AT SOME POINT?

A: YES.

Q: AND DID YOU HEAR ANY MUSIC PLAYING IN THE LIVING ROOM?

A: YES.

Q: AND WHERE WAS THAT MUSIC EMANATING FROM?

A: WELL, I DIDN'T EXACTLY GO OVER AND LOOK AND SEE. I BELIEVE IT WAS COMING FROM A STEREO IN THE LIVING ROOM SOMEWHERE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. DID YOU SEE SOME CANDLES SOME WHERE IN THE LIVING ROOM AREA OR DOWNSTAIRS AREA?

A: YEAH. THEY WERE ON A COFFEE TABLE OR SOME TYPE OF TABLE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROOM.

Q: AND HOW MANY CANDLES DID YOU SEE?

A: THERE WAS MORE THAN ONE, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER HOW MANY THERE WERE.

Q: ANY PICTURES EVER TAKEN OF THESE CANDLES?

A: NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. I DIDN'T DIRECT ANYBODY TO TAKE ANY PHOTOGRAPHS.

Q: TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE DID VANNATTER AND LANGE EVER DIRECT ANYBODY TO TAKE ANY PHOTOGRAPHS OF THESE CANDLES?

A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR. I HAVE NEVER ASKED.

Q: HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANY?

A: NO, I HAVE NEVER SEEN THE CRIME SCENE PHOTOGRAPHS AT ALL.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU THEN WENT UPSTAIRS IN THIS CURSORY LOOK; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S TRUE.

MR. COCHRAN: BEFORE YOU WENT UPSTAIRS, I WANT TO SHOW YOU AN AREA IN THE KITCHEN, IF I MIGHT. YOUR HONOR, MAY I CUE THAT UP AND SHOW THIS TO HIM?

THE COURT: YES.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: I WANT TO SHOW YOU AN AREA IN THE KITCHEN -- AND YOUR HONOR, I SUPPOSE -- HOW SHALL WE MARK THIS? 1022?

THE COURT: CAN WE HAVE FREEZE FRAME AND PRINT THAT?

MR. HARRIS: I HAVE DONE THAT ALREADY.

MR. COCHRAN: I DO HAVE A FREEZE FRAME OF IT.

THE COURT: THAT WOULD PROBABLY BE THE BETTER WAY TO DO IT.

MR. COCHRAN: OKAY, YOUR HONOR. I WOULD LIKE TO CUE THIS UP IF WE CAN.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR --

THE COURT: MISS CLARK.

MS. CLARK: PERHAPS WE COULD ASK THE FOUNDATIONAL QUESTION TO SEE IF IT IS RELEVANT.

MR. COCHRAN: WE COVERED THIS AREA.

THE COURT: I THOUGHT WE DEALT WITH THIS ALREADY.

MR. COCHRAN: WE COVERED THIS.

Q: PROCEED. IF YOU CAN LOOK AT THE MONITOR, PLEASE. I WILL ASK HIM TO --

MS. CLARK: HOW COME HE CUED THIS UP?

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. CUT IT. CUT IT.

MR. HARRIS: IT WOULDN'T STAY, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: IT PROBABLY HAS ONE OF THOSE GIZMOS THAT AFTER IT HAS PAUSED SO THE HEADS DON'T FLAP OR THE ROLLERS. CAN WE GO BACK TO THAT LOCATION?

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, THEY HAVE A STILL PHOTO. WHY NOT JUST USE IT?

MR. COCHRAN: BECAUSE IT IS NOT AS CLEAR AS THE -- I WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO TRY MY CASE, IF I COULD.

MS. CLARK: ME, TOO.

MR. COCHRAN: I CAN TELL.

THE COURT: COUNSEL, WHY DON'T WE AT LEAST PROCEED WITH THE STILL PHOTO. I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY DISPUTE AS TO WHAT THOSE ITEMS ARE THERE.

MR. COCHRAN: CERTAINLY. MAYBE HE COULD GET IT CUED UP. I WOULD LIKE TO --

THE COURT: MR. HARRIS, YOU HAVE A SMALL MONITOR THERE ALREADY, DON'T YOU?

MR. HARRIS: UNFORTUNATELY THE VCR IS NOT CONNECTED TO ANY OF THOSE DEVICES.

THE COURT: TERRIFIC. OKAY.

MR. COCHRAN: PUT IT ON THIS MONITOR DOWN HERE, FIRST.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET'S CUT THE BIG SCREEN.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

THE COURT: CUT THE BIG SCREEN.

MR. DARDEN: ON THE JURY'S MONITOR?

THE COURT: IS THERE ANYTHING ON THE JURY'S MONITOR, SMALL MONITOR? ALL RIGHT. NO. ANYTHING ON THE SMALL MONITOR? JUROR NO. 8: NO.

THE COURT: THANK YOU.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. BACK IT UP. BACK IT UP, NOW WE WOULD LIKE TO START AT THIS POINT, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PUT IT UP ON THE BIG SCREEN.

THE COURT: YES.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. NOW, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, CAN YOU SEE THAT PHOTOGRAPH OF A TELEPHONE IN THE KITCHEN AREA OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY AVENUE? CAN YOU SEE THAT?

A: I CAN SEE THE PICTURE OF A TELEPHONE.

Q: YES. CAN YOU SEE THAT?

A: YES.

Q: OKAY. DO YOU SEE THE NAME -- DO YOU SEE THOSE DIALS AT THE TOP THERE? DO YOU KNOW WHAT THOSE ARE?

A: WELL, I THINK SO. I THINK THEY ARE SPEED DIALS.

Q: OKAY. I'M JUST ASKING. YOU HAVE TO TESTIFY. THOSE ARE SPEED DIALERS AND WHAT NAMES DO YOU SEE OPPOSITE THOSE SPEED DIALERS?

A: THE ONLY ONE I CAN MAKE OUT IS DADDY.

Q: DO YOU SEE DADDY ON THERE?

A: I CAN'T READ THE SECOND ONE.

Q: DO YOU SEE THE NAME DIITA, D-I-I-T-A, DASH, OPA, O-P-A?

A: ALL RIGHT.

Q: DO YOU SEE AFTER THAT CORA, C-O-R-A?

A: YES, AND ROBIN.

Q: DO YOU SEE ROBIN?

A: AND THEN PAM.

Q: AND THEN PAM. DO YOU SEE THOSE?

A: YES.

Q NOW, WHEN YOU WALKED THROUGH THAT KITCHEN AREA -- AND NOW I WOULD LIKE, YOUR HONOR, TO MARK I THINK THIS IS D-1022?

THE COURT: 1022.

(DEFT'S 1022 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THIS AS DEFENDANT'S NEXT IN ORDER, AND I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW THIS UP CLOSE AND PERSONALLY TO DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, YOUR HONOR.

Q: WHEN YOU WERE IN THE KITCHEN AREA, OR IN THE LIVING ROOM AREA OR ANY ROOM WHERE THEY HAD PHONES, DID YOU EVER HAVE OCCASION TO GO OVER TO THE PHONES AND LOOK AND SEE WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A SPEED DIALER WITH ANY INDICATION OF ANY NAMES CLOSE TO THE SPEED DIALER?

A: NO.

Q: SO LATER ON IN THE MORNING, WHEN YOU WERE LOOKING, TRYING TO REACH O.J. SIMPSON BY PHONE, IF YOU HAD LOOKED AT THAT SPEED DIALER, YOU COULD HAVE DETERMINED RIGHT OFF THAT PHONE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: IF I HAD KNOWN ABOUT IT.

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY. HE WASN'T TRYING TO REACH MR. SIMPSON BY PHONE, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: OVERRULED. NO, HE WAS --

MS. CLARK: HE WAS IN ORDER TO SEE HIM PERSONALLY. MISLEADING.

THE COURT: RIGHT. OVERRULED. ALL RIGHT. BUT I THINK WE HAVE ABOUT EXHAUSTED THIS.

MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. WELL, I WAS INTERRUPTED, BUT LET ME ASK ONE LAST QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU NEVER LOOKED AT ANY OF THE PHONES IN THE HOUSE TO DETERMINE WHETHER DADDY'S PHONE NUMBER WAS RIGHT THERE ON THE SPEED DIALER, DID YOU?

A: NO, I DID NOT.

Q: NOW, WHEN YOU GOT UP THE STAIRS --

THE COURT: THANK YOU, MR. HARRIS.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.

Q: WHEN YOU GOT UP THE STAIRS, YOU WENT TO THE MASTER BEDROOM YOU DESCRIBED FOR US; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: YOU SAW THAT THE BED APPEARED MUSSED OR MESSED UP; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: UNMADE.

Q: UNMADE. AND YOU SAW MORE CANDLES BURNING AROUND THE BATHTUB AREA?

A: IN THE MASTER BATHROOM, YES.

Q MASTER BATHROOM. AND DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY CANDLES THERE WERE LIT IN THE MASTER BATHROOM AREA?

A: THERE WAS MORE THAN -- PROBABLY A COUPLE OR MORE.

Q: LIKE HOW MANY?

A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR.

Q: OKAY.

A: TWO OR THREE MAYBE.

Q: HAVE YOU SEEN ANY PHOTOGRAPHS OF THOSE SINCE THAT TIME?

A: I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY PHOTOGRAPHS AT ALL.

Q: ALL RIGHT. DID YOU SEE ANY BATH WATER IN THE BATHTUB IN THE MASTER BEDROOM?

A: I DON'T RECALL EVER SEEING ANY WATER IN THE MASTER BATHTUB.

Q: YOU HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF THAT?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: DID YOU WRITE A REPORT IN CONNECTION WITH YOUR OBSERVATIONS INSIDE THAT RESIDENCE?

A: NO, I DID NOT.

Q: YOU DID NOT WRITE A REPORT AT ALL?

A: NO.

Q: DO YOU HAVE ANY NOTES?

A: NO.

Q: SO WHAT YOU ARE TESTIFYING ABOUT TODAY IS PURELY AND SIMPLY YOUR MEMORY FROM JUNE 13 EARLY MORNING HOURS; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: THAT IS ALL I HAVE GOT TO GO WITH.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND NOW, DID YOU LOOK INTO THIS -- THE TWO OTHER BEDROOMS UPSTAIRS THAT BELONGED TO THE CHILDREN WHILE YOU WERE THERE?

A: JUST BRIEFLY, YES.

Q: HAD THE CHILDREN BEEN TAKEN OUT AT THAT POINT?

A: YES.

Q: INSIDE THAT RESIDENCE DID YOU -- STRIKE THAT. DID YOU SEE A TELEVISION ON IN THE MASTER BEDROOM?

A: YES, I DID, SIR.

Q: DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING ELSE IN THAT MASTER BEDROOM WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT YET?

A: NO.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AFTER YOU COMPLETED YOUR TOUR OF THE INTERIOR OF THE RESIDENCE, YOU CAME BACK OUTSIDE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AND HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU GO ON TOURS, IF CAN CALL THEM THAT, OF THE EXTERIOR OF THAT PARTICULAR RESIDENCE THAT MORNING, BEFORE YOU FINALLY LEFT?

A: I BELIEVE I WENT ON THREE, POSSIBLY FOUR.

Q: THREE, PERHAPS FOUR?

A: I THINK IT WAS THREE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. LET'S TAKE THE FIRST ONE.

A: I WENT WITH RISKE.

Q: THE FIRST ONE, IS THAT WENT YOU WENT UP THROUGH THE FRONT?

A: YES.

Q: THROUGH THE KIND OF FOLIAGE AREA THERE WHERE THE PLANTS ARE?

A: YES.

Q: RISKE LED YOU THROUGH THAT WAY, DID HE?

A: YES.

Q: WHEN YOU WENT UP BY THE CALL BOX?

A: YES.

Q: WHILE YOU WERE THERE -- BY THE WAY, DID YOU EVER HAVE OCCASION TO CHECK TO SEE HOW THAT CALL BOX WORKED?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: DID YOU SEE ANY OFFICERS THERE CHECK THAT CALL BOX TO SEE HOW IT WORKED THAT MORNING?

A: I DON'T RECALL ANYBODY CHECKING THAT CALL BOX.

Q: YOU NEVER SAW LANGE OR VANNATTER DO THAT EITHER?

A: I KNOW THAT I OVERHEARD A DISCUSSION ABOUT IT, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHO WAS DOING IT.

Q: WELL, DID YOU EVER SEE ANYBODY DO IT? THAT IS THE QUESTION.

A: I MAY HAVE GONE OUT AT ONE TIME TO LISTEN FOR A CLICK, MUCH LATER ON IN THE DAY. I THINK I DID THAT ONCE.

Q: WHEN WAS THAT?

A: WELL, AS I SAY, IT WAS MUCH LATER IN THE DAY.

Q: LIKE WHAT TIME?

A: I DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA OF THE TIME, SIR. IT WOULD BE LATER -- IN FACT, IT MAY NOT EVEN HAVE BEEN THAT DAY.

Q: DID YOU HAVE A REPORT ON THAT?

A: NO.

Q: IT IS NOT ON YOUR LOG? YOU LEFT AT TEN O'CLOCK, RIGHT?

A: WELL, THAT IS ONE OF THE TIMES I LEFT THERE AT TEN O'CLOCK, AND AS I SAID, IT MAY NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN THAT DAY THAT I AM REFERRING TO, BUT I REMEMBER LISTENING TO THAT CLICK SOMETIME DURING THIS INVESTIGATION AND I'M NOT SURE WHAT DAY IT WAS.

Q: BUT WEREN'T YOU OFF THE CASE AFTER THAT MORNING? WHY WERE YOU BACK OUT THERE LISTENING TO A CLICK?

A: OH, THERE WAS TIMES WHEN THEY CALLED US UP TO ASSIST, TO GO OUT AND ASSIST THEM IN DOING STUFF OR --

Q: ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. WELL, IF YOU LISTENED TO A CLICK AND YOU HEARD A CLICK, CAN YOU SHOW ME A REPORT WHERE YOU WROTE THAT DOWN OR YOU TOLD SOMEBODY ABOUT THAT?

A: I DIDN'T WRITE ANYTHING DOWN.

Q: WHAT ELSE DID YOU GO BACK OUT AND DO THAT YOU HAVE NOT WRITTEN DOWN?

A: THAT WOULD BE IT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO THE QUESTION WAS, THOUGH, DID YOU SEE ANY DETECTIVES THAT MORNING CHECKING THAT CALL BOX OUT AND SEEING HOW IT WORKED FROM INSIDE THE RESIDENCE?

A: I DON'T RECALL SEEING ANYBODY DO THAT.

Q: OKAY. WHILE YOU WERE THERE, IN ADDITION TO CALLING THE CORONER, IT IS ALSO VERY IMPORTANT, IS IT NOT, TO CALL THE CRIMINALIST OUT SO THEY CAN START TRYING TO COLLECT EVIDENCE. THAT IS IMPORTANT ALSO, ISN'T IT?

A: THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN BY THE HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR THAT WAS ASSIGNED TO THE SCENE.

Q: LISTEN TO MY QUESTION. MY QUESTION IS IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT, IS IT NOT, TO CALL THE CRIMINALIST EARLY TO THE SCENE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE IN CHARGE, BETWEEN 2:10 TO 2:38, DID YOU EVER CALL THE CRIMINALIST?

A: NO.

Q: DO YOU KNOW THE NAMES OF THE CRIMINALISTS WHO ULTIMATELY CAME TO THIS PARTICULAR CASE?

A: I ONLY KNOW OF ONE. I THINK THAT WAS FONG.

Q: FUNG?

A: FUNG.

Q: IS THAT FUNG?

A: I DON'T --

Q: DID MR. FUNG COME TO THE SCENE PRIOR TO THE TIME THAT YOU LEFT?

A: WHICH SCENE?

Q: THE BUNDY SCENE?

A: I DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME MR. FUNG GOT TO THE BUNDY SCENE. I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM.

Q: ALL RIGHT. BUT I'M ASKING YOU YOUR RECOLLECTION. YOU WENT BACK TO BUNDY?

A: I DON'T RECALL HIM COMING TO THAT LOCATION.

Q: WELL, YOU WERE THERE WHEN THE CORONERS GOT THERE ABOUT 9:10 IN THE MORNING, RIGHT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: WOULD I BE CORRECT IN ASSUMING THAT THE CORONERS CAME BEFORE THE CRIMINALIST CAME?

A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR.

Q: WELL, IF WE WERE TO LOOK AT THE LOG, WOULD THAT HELP YOU AGAIN?

A: IT WOULD TELL ME WHAT TIME THEY GOT THERE, BUT IT STILL WOULDN'T REFRESH MY MEMORY AS TO ME SEEING THEM THERE.

Q: YOU HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF SEEING HIM AT ALL AT BUNDY?

A: NO, I DON'T, NOT THAT MORNING.

Q: ALL RIGHT. DID YOU SEE HIM AT ROCKINGHAM?

A: LATER ON IN THE DAY, YES.

Q: I'M TALKING ABOUT IN THE MORNING NOW. DID YOU SEE HIM IN THE MORNING?

A: NO.

Q: WHAT IS THE CRIMINALIST'S JOB?

A: TO OBTAIN THE EVIDENCE, TO BOOK IT, TO OBTAIN IT.

Q: AND THEY ARE CALLED USUALLY BY THE INVESTIGATING DETECTIVES; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND YOU KNOW, DO YOU NOT, THAT THE CRIMINALISTS ARE ON 24-HOUR CALL, AREN'T THEY?

A: WELL, SURE THEY ARE.

Q: JUST LIKE YOU ARE AS THE DETECTIVE?

A: YES.

Q: YOU NEVER CALLED FOR THE CRIMINALIST AND AS FAR AS YOU KNOW YOU NEVER HEARD LANGE OR VANNATTER CALL FOR THE CRIMINALIST TO COME OUT TO BUNDY, AT LEAST WHILE YOU WERE THERE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: WELL, I'M NOT SAYING THEY DIDN'T CALL WHILE I WAS THERE.

Q: I'M ASKING DID YOU EVER HEAR THEM CALL WHILE YOU WERE THERE, SIR? THAT IS ALL I'M ASKING.

A: I DID NOT HEAR THE CALL GO OUT TO CALL THEM, YES.

Q: WHILE YOU WERE THERE, RIGHT?

A: WHILE I WAS THERE.

Q: OKAY. NOW, WE HAVE GONE THROUGH THIS. FIRST WHEN YOU TOOK THE FIRST EXTERIOR TOUR WITH RISKE, YOU DIDN'T GO INSIDE THE HOUSE AT THAT POINT, RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: YOU WENT INSIDE?

A: WELL, AT SOME TIME DURING THAT FIRST INITIAL CURSORY WALK THROUGH OF THE CRIME SCENE OFFICER RISKE WALKED US THROUGH THE HOUSE.

Q: I THOUGHT ON THE FIRST ONE, WHEN YOU WALKED UP IN THE KIND OF FOLIAGE AREA, I THOUGHT YOU WALKED UP TO THE CALL BOX. DID YOU GO IN THE HOUSE AT THAT POINT?

A: WELL, WE WALKED UP TO WHERE THE BODIES WERE AT.

Q: OKAY.

A: THEN WE BACKTRACKED OUT.

Q: ALL RIGHT.

A: THEN WALKED AROUND SOUTHBOUND OVER TO THE ALLEY, WALKED INTO THE GARAGE, WALKED INTO THE HOUSE, WALKED OUT AND VIEWED THE BODIES, WALKED DOWN THE DRIVEWAY -- THE SIDEWALK AREA, THE WALKWAY AREA OUT TO THE BACK, WALKED BACK INTO THE HOUSE AND TOOK A CURSORY LOOK THROUGH THE HOUSE.

Q: WHEN YOU WALKED DOWN THIS SIDEWALK AREA -- AND MISS CLARK ASKED YOU, MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY TIMES ABOUT YOU BEING CAREFUL; IS THAT CORRECT, WHERE YOU STEPPED?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AS AN EXPERIENCED HOMICIDE DETECTIVE YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE TIMES WHERE YOU CANNOT ALWAYS SEE FOOTPRINTS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YOU MAY NOT SEE ALL THE FOOTPRINTS, YES.

Q: YOU KNOW THAT FROM YOUR EXPERIENCE, ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S TRUE.

Q: SO IF YOU DIDN'T SEE IT, SOMETIMES YOU STEP IN THINGS WHERE YOU CAN'T SEE IT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT WOULD BE POSSIBLE.

Q: HOW MANY -- AS YOU WERE TAKING THESE VARIOUS AND SUNDRY TRIPS, HOW MANY OFFICERS WERE THERE WALKING WITH YOU AND RISKE AS YOU WALKED ON THIS PATHWAY YOU JUST DESCRIBED? WAS IT YOU AND FUHRMAN AND RISKE AND WHO ELSE?

A: I BELIEVE THAT WAS ALL THERE WAS.

Q: THREE OF YOU; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: THEN LATER, WHEN LANGE AND VANNATTER CAME, AND YOU SHOWED THEM, THEY WALKED THOSE SAME ROUTES; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: DID LIEUTENANT ROGERS ALSO WALK AND LOOK THIS ROUTE OVER ALSO?

A: I DON'T KNOW IF LIEUTENANT ROGERS WALKED AND LOOKED THROUGH IT OR NOT.

Q: HE WAS CERTAINLY THERE AT ONE POINT WHEN YOU WENT OVER TO ROCKINGHAM, WASN'T HE?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HE DID?

A: I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT HE DID.

Q: WHILE YOU WERE THERE DID YOU SEE SERGEANT COON THERE?

A: WHEN I FIRST ARRIVED, YES.

Q: AND DID HE STAY THERE FOR A PERIOD OF TIME?

A: I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG HE STAYED THERE OR WHEN HE LEFT.

Q: DID YOU SEE HIM WALK AT ALL DURING -- IN THIS WALKWAY OR -- THROUGH THE CRIME SCENE, SERGEANT COON?

A: I DID NOT SEE SERGEANT COON WALK THROUGH THE CRIME SCENE.

Q: NOW, ON YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION THERE WAS MENTION, I BELIEVE -- STRIKE THAT.

DID YOU LEARN THAT OFFICER RISKE TOUCHED MR. GOLDMAN'S THAT WAS PARTIALLY OPENED AT SOME POINT? DID YOU HEAR THAT?

A: NO.

Q: YOU NEVER HEARD THAT?

A: NO.

Q: YOU KNEW AT ONE POINT THAT OFFICER RISKE WENT AROUND TO THE NORTH OF THE PROPERTY ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE? YOU KNEW ABOUT THAT; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: HE TOOK ME AROUND THERE.

Q: HE WALKED AROUND THERE, SO YOU SAW THAT?

A: YES.

Q: WITH REGARD TO THIS WALKWAY AREA, DO YOU RECALL SEEING THAT THE WALKWAY WAS -- WAS VERY STAINED WITH BERRIES FROM A TREE THAT HAD DROPPED DOWN? DO YOU REMEMBER SEEING THAT AT ALL?

A: I BELIEVE THERE WAS.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. IF WE COULD FIND, YOUR HONOR, I WANT TO TRY AND GET A COUPLE OF PICTURES WHICH I THINK DEMONSTRATE THAT. THERE ARE SO MANY PHOTOGRAPHS. LET'S SEE.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

MR. COCHRAN: LET'S TRY 45-B, C, D, E IF WE CAN.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY PHOTOGRAPHS, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO CUT THE FEED BECAUSE WE WON'T KNOW UNTIL WE ACTUALLY SEE. WE ARE LOOKING FOR PARTICULAR PHOTOGRAPHS, YOUR HONOR, AT THIS POINT AND I WANT TO SHOW THE WITNESS.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 45-A.

MR. COCHRAN: YOU CAN MOVE ON. NOT THAT ONE.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 45-B, 45-C.

MR. COCHRAN: YOU CAN MOVE ON TO THE NEXT ONE.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 45-D.

MS. CLARK: G.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 45-E.

MR. COCHRAN: JUST STOP THERE. STOP AT THAT ONE. WHAT NUMBER IS THAT, JOHN?

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: THAT IS 45-E.

MR. COCHRAN: 45-E.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: I'M SORRY, 45-D.

MR. COCHRAN: 45-D, YOUR HONOR.

Q: CAN YOU SEE IT ON THE MONITOR, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: I THINK YOU WERE ASKED SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR PHOTOGRAPH REGARDING SOME ALLEGED BLOODY FOOTPRINT OR WHATEVER. DO YOU RECALL THAT?

A: YES.

Q: DO YOU SEE THOSE SHOES THERE? CAN YOU SEE THOSE -- A PAIR OF WHITE SHOES OR LIGHT SHOES AND ALSO A PAIR OF DARK SHOES UP THERE?

A: YES.

Q: DO YOU KNOW WHO THOSE SHOES BELONG TO?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: WOULD I BE CORRECT IN ASSUMING THAT YOU REMEMBER THE PHOTOGRAPHER ROKAHR THAT MORNING WAS WEARING SOME LIGHT-COLORED SHOES LIKE THOSE SHOES THERE AN IN THE BOTTOM PHOTOGRAPH?

A: I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT KIND OF SHOES MR. ROKAHR WAS WEARING.

Q: YOU HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF THAT?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU DON'T RECALL WHOSE SHOES THOSE ARE?

A: I DON'T KNOW.

Q: THE SHOES AT THE TOP, YOU CAN'T TELL US WHOSE SHOES THOSE ARE?

A: NO, SIR.

MR. COCHRAN: OKAY.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: E.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, WITH REGARD TO THESE -- THESE FOOTPRINTS OR SHOEPRINTS YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT, DO YOU RECALL THAT AS YOU LOOKED DOWN THIS PARTICULAR ROUTE WHERE THESE SHOEPRINTS WERE SUPPOSEDLY GOING TOWARD THE ALLEYWAY, THAT THERE CAME A TIME THAT YOU SAW TWO SHOEPRINTS THAT WERE FACING PARALLEL TOWARD THE HOUSE -- PERPENDICULAR TO THE HOUSE? DO YOU REMEMBER TWO SHOEPRINTS THAT WENT RIGHT TOWARD THE HOUSE?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: YOU DON'T REMEMBER SEEING THOSE?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: ANYBODY EVER SHOWED YOU THOSE?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: AND YESTERDAY, WHEN MISS CLARK WAS ASKING YOU QUESTIONS ABOUT THE BLOOD DROPS -- MAY I HAVE JUST A SECOND, YOUR HONOR?

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: I AM TRYING TO SAVE SOME TIME, YOUR HONOR, AND ASKING HER FOR A PARTICULAR PHOTOGRAPH.

MS. CLARK: I WILL LOOK.

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: WHICH NUMBER IS THIS, JOHN?

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: THIS IS 45-F.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. LET'S --

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: LET'S TRY 45-G.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 45-G.

MR. COCHRAN: NO. TRY THE NEXT ONE.

MR. DARDEN: 48-G.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 45-H.

MR. COCHRAN: NO.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 45-I.

THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU MOVE TO THE 48 SERIES.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 48. 48-A.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. YES, I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THEM.

Q: NOW, DETECTIVE, IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH IT IS A LONGER VIEW, IT WAS MY UNDERSTANDING -- DO YOU SEE THAT 112 UP THERE?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: DOES THAT PURPORT TO BE SOME KIND OF A BLOOD DROP?

A: I THINK 112 WAS A BLOOD DROP. I CAN'T SEE THAT FROM THIS PHOTOGRAPH.

Q: OKAY. COULD YOU TELL US HOW FAR THE NEAREST FOOTPRINT WAS FROM THAT ALLEGED BLOOD DROP?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: WHILE YOU WERE OUT THERE THAT MORNING, WHAT IS YOUR BEST ESTIMATE?

A: I WOULD NOT -- I DON'T RECALL.

Q: FOUR FEET, FIVE FEET, SIX FEET?

A: I COULDN'T EVEN GUESS, SIR.

Q: YOU CAN'T EVEN GUESS?

A: I DID NO MEASUREMENTS, I DID NO CRIME SCENE EVALUATION, I DID NO CRIME SCENE SKETCH.

Q: YOU JUST SAW YOUR CURSORY LOOK, CORRECT?

A: I WOULD HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE DISTANCE IS.

MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. FINE. JOHN, THE NEXT ONE.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 48-B.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT. MOVE ON.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 48-C.

MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. MOVE ON.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 48-D.

MR. COCHRAN: MOVE ON.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 48-E.

MR. COCHRAN: MOVE ON.

MR. FAIRTLOUGH: 48-F.

MR. COCHRAN: RIGHT.

Q: NOW, YOU SEE 48-F THERE?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: CAN YOU SEE THAT? I WANT YOU TO LOOK -- FIRST OF ALL, CAN YOU SEE -- CAN YOU STEP OUT AND CAN YOU SEE UP ON THIS BANISTER, THIS WHITE BANISTER?

A: YES.

Q: YOU SEE WHAT APPEARS TO BE SOME LITTLE BERRIES OR WHATEVER THAT HAVE FALLEN FROM THE TREES ABOVE? CAN YOU SEE THAT?

A: I RECALL THEM AS BEING SOME TYPE OF BERRY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YES.

Q: REDDISH IN COLOR?

A: A BERRY.

Q: OKAY. A BERRY?

A: PURPLE, REDDISH, BROWNISH.

Q: ALL RIGHT.

A: BERRY.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SOME KIND OF COLORED BERRY. ALL RIGHT. NOW, I WANT YOU TO LOOK AT THOSE STAIRS THERE AS DEPICTED IN 48-F. DO YOU SEE HOW THE STAIRWAYS ARE STAINED? DO YOU SEE ALSO THAT THERE IS APPARENTLY SOME BERRY RESIDUE ON THOSE PARTICULAR STAIRS? DO YOU SEE THAT?

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR.

MR. COCHRAN: THE PICTURE SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. I AM ASKING --

THE COURT: YOU ARE TESTIFYING THAT IT IS BERRY RESIDUE. WE DON'T KNOW THAT.

MR. COCHRAN: LET ME REPHRASE IT IN ANOTHER WAY. PERHAPS BERRY RESIDUE IS A BAD CHOICE OF WORDS.

Q: WHAT IS THAT ON THOSE STEPS THAT LOOKS LIKE THOSE BERRIES COMING FROM THOSE TREES? IS THAT -- DO YOU REMEMBER -- I WILL -- I'M GOING TO STRIKE THAT QUESTION.

THE COURT: WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE TO YOU?

THE WITNESS: I'M NOT A HORTICULTURIST. I HAVE NO IDEA.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: I KNOW. I KNOW. I WANT TO MAKE THAT AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE. LOOK AT THAT PHOTOGRAPH. WHAT DO YOU SEE IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH ON THOSE STEPS?

A: I SEE DEBRIS ON THOSE STEPS.

Q: WHAT KIND OF DEBRIS?

A: BROWNISH-RED PURPLEISH BERRIES.

Q: THEY ARE GOING UP THE STAIRS AND THOSE ARE THE STEPS GOING UP THE BACK WAY?

THE COURT: THERE IS A LOT OF IT.

MR. COCHRAN: A LOT OF IT?

THE WITNESS: YES, SIR.

MR. COCHRAN: WOULD THIS BE A GOOD TIME?

THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A RECESS SO WE CAN SWITCH COURT REPORTERS AT THIS TIME. PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITION. DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONG YOURSELVES, FORMS ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE. DON'T ALLOW ANYBODY TO SPEAK WITH YOU ABOUT THE CASE. DON'T CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU. DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S TAKE THEM UPSTAIRS. DEPUTY MAGNERA: YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: COUNSEL, WE WILL RESUME AT 25 MINUTES AFTER 3:00. DETECTIVE, YOU MAY STEP DOWN.

THE WITNESS: THANK YOU, SIR.

(RECESS.)

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: DEPUTY MAGNERA, LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE. COUNSEL, WE'RE GOING TO BREAK AT 4:15. WE STILL HAVE SOME DNA ISSUES TO TAKE UP.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)

THE COURT: OVER AT SIDEBAR.

THE COURT: MISS CLARK.

MS. CLARK: ONCE AGAIN, I SEE THAT COUNSEL IS PROPOSING TO SHOW A PHOTOGRAPH TO THE WITNESS WITHOUT LAYING FOUNDATION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT HE SAW THE ITEM IN QUESTION, AND BASED ON THE OFFICER'S TESTIMONY THUS FAR, IT'S PRETTY MUCH A FOREGONE CONCLUSION THAT HE DID NOT.

THE COURT: WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

MR. COCHRAN: WHAT NUMBER?

MS. CLARK: PHOTOGRAPH OF THE BLUE PLASTIC BAG YOU PUT ON THE ELMO.

MR. COCHRAN: NOT ON THE ELMO. IT HAPPENS TO BE ON MY THING HERE.

MS. CLARK: YEAH. AND ALL I'M ASKING IS THAT PREEMPTIVELY, COUNSEL BE REQUIRED TO LAY A FOUNDATION THAT THIS WITNESS SAW WHAT HE'S GOING TO REFER TO IN THE PHOTOGRAPH.

THE COURT: WHAT IS THIS?

MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU PASS THAT TO ME, OVER THERE? THIS IS A PICTURE OF THE GLOVE. THERE IS A CONTAINER THERE. I WANT TO ASK HIM IF HE SAW THAT THERE. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT SHE IS TALKING ABOUT. THESE ARE PHOTOS WE GOT IN DISCOVERY. THIS IS A CONTAINER THAT WAS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE, WHICH IT APPEARS TO BE SOME BLUE PLASTIC BAG OR SOMETHING. IT LOOKS THAT AS THOUGH SOMETHING WAS CARRIED OUT. I'M GOING TO ASK HIM --

MS. CLARK: AS LONG AS COUNSEL DOESN'T EDITORIALIZE SOMETHING WAS CARRIED, THAT BLUE PLASTIC CONTAINER.

MR. COCHRAN: WHEN HAVE I DONE THAT?

MS. CLARK: IF THE WITNESS EVEN SAW THE THING.

THE COURT: I THINK THE OBJECTION IS PREMATURE AT THIS POINT.

MR. COCHRAN: I THINK SO TOO, YOUR HONOR.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: LET THE RECORD REFLECT WE'VE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL OF OUR JURY MEMBERS. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS IS STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND. GOOD AFTERNOON AGAIN, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS. YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH. MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. JUST ANOTHER QUESTION OR TWO ABOUT 48-F, IF I COULD HAVE IT BACK UP.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, WHEN YOU SAW THAT AREA ON THE WALKWAY WHERE YOU SAW THE DEBRIS BACK THERE, DID YOU FIND THAT SOMETIMES THAT THE DEBRIS WOULD ADHERE TO OR COME IN CONTACT WITH YOUR SHOES AS YOU WALKED IN THAT AREA?

A: I NEVER PAID ANY ATTENTION TO THAT, SIR. I NEVER CHECKED THAT OUT.

Q: YOU NEVER CHECKED THAT OUT.

A: NO, SIR.

Q: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU SEE IT THERE THOUGH NOW? DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTION IN YOUR MIND THAT THAT WOULD COME IN CONTACT WITH YOUR FEET AND SHOES IF YOU WERE WALKING BACK THERE?

A: WELL, I IMAGINE IF YOU WOULD STEP ON IT, IT WOULD COME IN CONTACT WITH YOUR FEET, YES.

Q: YES. AND THEN YOU GET BACK THERE, YOU'D HAVE TO STEP BACK THERE TO WALK BACK THERE, WHICH YOU DID. YOU DID WALK BACK THERE, DIDN'T YOU?

A: I DID WALK BACK THERE, YES.

Q: OKAY, SIR. NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE LOCATION AT BUNDY, YOU'VE TOLD US THAT YOU DID NOT TAKE ANY NOTES AT ALL, EITHER BUNDY OR ROCKINGHAM; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: IT'S TRUE, IS IT NOT, THAT YOUR PARTNER, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, DID IN FACT MAKE SOME NOTES; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: I BELIEVE SO.

Q: AND IF YOU WERE TO SEE THOSE NOTES, YOU WOULD RECOGNIZE HIS HANDWRITING, WOULDN'T YOU?

A: IF HE WROTE IT, YES, IF I'VE SEEN IT BEFORE, YES.

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A THREE-PAGE DOCUMENT D-1022. YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW IT TO COUNSEL, APPROACH THE WITNESS.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. 1022.

MR. COCHRAN: 23?

THE COURT: 1023?

MR. COCHRAN: 1023 I UNDERSTAND, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

(DEFT'S 1023 FOR ID = THREE-PAGE DOCUMENT)

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU. I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH WITH A FOUR-PAGE DOCUMENT, D-1022.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU -- LET'S LOOK AT THE FIRST PAGE OF D-1022. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PRINTING THAT'S CONTAINED THEREIN?

A: IT APPEARS TO BE DETECTIVE FUHRMAN'S PRINTING.

Q: AND YOU RECOGNIZE THAT FROM YOUR PRIOR ASSOCIATION AND THE FACT THAT HE WAS YOUR PARTNER SOME NUMBER OF YEARS; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: LOOKS LIKE HIS HANDWRITING, YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND THESE ARE NOTES THAT HE TOOK IN THE COURSE OF THE INVESTIGATION THAT PARTICULAR EVENING; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES. I ASSUME THEY ARE. I JUST TOOK THEM FROM HIM AND HANDED THEM OVER TO VANNATTER AND LANGE. I NEVER READ THEM. IF YOU ARE ASKING ME IF THESE ARE THE NOTES HE TOOK THAT NIGHT --

Q: WELL, I'M ASKING, FIRST OF ALL, IS THIS HIS HANDWRITING?

A: APPEARS TO BE, YES.

Q: OKAY. BY THE WAY, DID YOU FIND A HANDWRITTEN NOTE ON THE UPSTAIRS COFFEE TABLE AT THAT RESIDENCE?

A: NO, I DIDN'T.

Q: DID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN FIND A HANDWRITTEN NOTE ON THE UPSTAIRS COFFEE TABLE?

A: I WOULDN'T KNOW THAT, SIR.

Q: YOU DON'T RECALL THAT AT ALL?

A: NO.

Q: I WANT YOU TO LOOK AT THIS ITEM NUMBER 5 AND SEE IF THIS REFRESHES YOUR RECOLLECTION AT ALL. YOU CAN READ IT TO YOURSELF.

A: OKAY.

Q: DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AT ALL?

A: I REMEMBER SEEING THE PIZZA MENU.

Q: AND WHERE WAS THIS PIZZA MENU?

A: IT WAS OUTSIDE BY THE VICTIM.

Q: IN OTHER WORDS, THERE WAS A PIZZA MENU OUTSIDE ON THE GROUND NEAR WHERE MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S BODY WAS FOUND?

A: I BELIEVE SO.

Q: AND WAS THERE A NOTE UPSTAIRS, A HANDWRITTEN NOTE ON THE UPSTAIRS COFFEE TABLE SAYING CARA, C-A-R-A, WITH THE PHONE NUMBER 575-5713 CALIFORNIA PIZZA KITCHEN?

A: I DON'T RECALL SEEING THAT NOTE.

Q: WAS THAT EVER BOOKED?

A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR. I DIDN'T BOOK ANY ITEMS IN THIS CASE.

Q: DID YOU EVER DISCUSS THAT WITH YOUR PARTNER DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

A: NO.

Q: DID YOU SEE THIS LAST PAGE?

A: NO, I DIDN'T.

Q: IS THAT HIS HANDWRITING ALSO?

A: THIS APPEARS TO BE HIS HANDWRITING, YES.

Q: NOW, WHILE YOU WERE AT THE SCENE THERE AT BUNDY, DID YOU AND YOUR PARTNER FUHRMAN THEORIZE THAT THE SUSPECT OR SUSPECTS HAD RUN THROUGH THAT AREA, THAT WALKWAY AREA AND THAT THE SUSPECT OR SUSPECTS HAD POSSIBLY BEEN BITTEN BY THE AKITA, THE DOG?

A: NOW, LET ME MENTION ONE THING.

Q: DETECTIVE, BEFORE YOU MENTION ONE THING --

A: FUHRMAN IS NOT MY PARTNER.

Q: HE'S NOT YOUR PARTNER?

A: NO. I SUPERVISE MARK FUHRMAN'S WORK. SO HE'S AN INDIVIDUAL THAT WORKS FOR ME OR HE'S NOT MY PARTNER AT THIS TIME.

Q: YOU WANT TO CLEAR THAT UP THEN? AND WAS THAT ON JUNE 13?

A: YES.

Q: SO HE WORKED FOR YOU?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: SO LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION. DID YOU AND MARK FUHRMAN, WHO WORKED FOR YOU, THEORIZE THAT THE SUSPECT OR SUSPECTS HAD BEEN BITTEN BY THIS AKITA DOG SOMEWHERE IN THAT WALKWAY THAT PARTICULAR NIGHT?

A: I NEVER HEARD THAT THEORY BY ANYBODY.

Q: DO YOU SEE THAT INDICATED ON MARK FURHMAN'S NOTES?

A: YES.

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THIS CALLS FOR SPECULATION.

THE COURT: IT'S HEARSAY. WHAT'S IN THE NOTES ARE HEARSAY.

MR. COCHRAN: ALL RIGHT.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: SO DID YOU OR DID YOU OR ANYONE ELSE IN YOUR PRESENCE THAT NIGHT CHECK WITH ANY LOCAL HOSPITALS TO SEE IF ANY PERSON HAD GONE TO THAT HOSPITAL FOR TREATMENT OF A DOG BITE?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: YOU TOLD US EARLIER THAT WHILE STILL AT BUNDY, THE AKITA WAS TETHERED TO A POST OF SOME KIND; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AND DO YOU KNOW WHO TOOK CUSTODY OF THAT AKITA?

A: I BELIEVE UNDER MY DIRECTION, IT WAS TAKEN TO THE ANIMAL POUND OR THE ANIMAL POUND CAME AND PICKED IT UP. IT WAS AT MY DIRECTION THAT IT BE DONE.

Q: DO YOU KNOW WHETHER ANYBODY EVER CHECKED THE AKITA'S MOUTH OR TEETH TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT IT HAD BITTEN ANYONE THAT NIGHT?

A: I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT WAS EVER DONE.

Q: AND DID YOU GIVE ANY SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS IN THAT REGARD?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: DID YOU HEAR LANGE OR VANNATTER DO THAT?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: NOW, YOU DESCRIBED FOR US YESTERDAY THAT AT -- STRIKE THAT. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANY PICTURES OF THIS PIZZA MENU THAT WAS OUTSIDE NEAR MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S BODY AS IT WAS OUT THERE? DID YOU SEE ANY PICTURES OF THAT?

A: THE ONLY CRIME SCENE PICTURES I'VE SEEN, SIR, ARE THE ONES THAT YOU'VE SHOWN ME HERE. I HAVEN'T GONE THROUGH THEM.

Q: OKAY. AND HAVE YOU SEEN SOME OF MISS MARCIA CLARK?

A: THE ONES THAT HAVE BEEN SHOWN HERE IN COURT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU SEE THIS PHOTOGRAPHER ROKAHR OR ANYONE ELSE TAKE ANY PICTURES OF THAT MENU THAT NIGHT?

A: NEVER SAW MR. ROKAHR TAKE ANY PHOTOGRAPHS OTHER THAN SOME PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE STREET WHEN HE WAS FIRST ARRIVED AND THOSE WERE ALL ORIENTATION PHOTOS.

Q: AND EVEN THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT WAS TAKEN OF MARK FUHRMAN, YOU NEVER SAW THAT TAKEN EITHER; IS THAT RIGHT, SIR?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: NOW, AFTER YOU HAD GOTTEN THE CALL OR TALKED TO CAPTAIN GARTLAND ABOUT 2:38 AND YOU KNEW YOU WERE OFF THIS CASE, YOU BASICALLY, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SOME MINOR THINGS, CEASED YOUR ACTIVITIES; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: WHEN WAS IT THAT YOU WERE TOLD THAT YOU HAD TO GIVE THIS SO-CALLED VIP NOTIFICATION TO MR. O.J. SIMPSON? WHEN WERE YOU TOLD THAT?

A: WHEN I FIRST ARRIVED TO THE LOCATION AT ABOUT 2:10, 2:11, 2:12.

Q: AND WHO TOLD YOU THAT?

A: WHEN I FIRST ARRIVED TO THE LOCATION, SERGEANT ROSSI WAS ON A CELL PHONE TALKING TO COMMANDER KEITH BUSHEY AND HE HANDED ME THE PHONE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO IS KEITH BUSHEY THE ONE WHO TOLD YOU THAT?

A: COMMANDER KEITH BUSHEY, YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. HE TOLD YOU TO GIVE O.J. SIMPSON SOME KIND OF VIP NOTIFICATION; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: HE DIDN'T MENTION IT AS VIP NOTIFICATION. HE JUST SAID THAT, "MAKE SURE THAT YOU NOTIFY MR. SIMPSON IF POSSIBLE IN PERSON PRIOR TO THE NEWS MEDIA FINDING OUT BECAUSE IT WOULD BE INSENSITIVE FOR HIM TO FIND OUT THROUGH THE NEWS MEDIA ABOUT WHAT'S TAKING PLACE AT THIS HOUSE ON BUNDY."

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, FIRST OF ALL, DOESN'T LAPD POLICY APPLY TO THE NEXT OF KIN?

A: YES.

Q: AND IN THIS INSTANCE, IF MR. SIMPSON WAS THE EX-HUSBAND OF MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, HE WAS NOT THE NEXT OF KIN, WAS HE?

A: WELL, OUR MAIN CONCERN WAS HIS CHILDREN.

Q: CAN YOU JUST ANSWER MY QUESTION? HE WAS NOT THE NEXT OF KIN, WAS HE?

A: NOT OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.

Q: DID YOU -- DID COMMANDER BUSHEY ASK YOU TO MAKE SURE YOU GAVE SOME NOTIFICATION TO NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S PARENTS, WHEREVER THEY WERE?

A: HE DIDN'T DO IT. WE DID IT.

Q: DID ANYBODY EVER SEARCH IN THAT HOUSE TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT HER MOTHER'S PHONE NUMBER WAS PART OF THIS SPEED DIALING?

A: I DIDN'T DO ANY SEARCHING, SIR.

Q: AND SO THE LAPD POLICY TALKS ABOUT NEXT OF KIN, DOESN'T IT?

A: YES.

Q: IS THAT RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: AND THE POLICY ALSO TALKS ABOUT GIVING WHERE POSSIBLE PERSON-TO-PERSON NOTICE AS OPPOSED TO OVER THE PHONE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: IF POSSIBLE, YES.

Q: AND PART OF THAT IS BECAUSE OF CITY LIABILITY. IF YOU CALL SOMEBODY UP OVER THE PHONE AND TELL THEM SOMETHING, THEY MIGHT FAINT OR HAVE A HEART ATTACK; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: I SUPPOSE THAT IS BROUGHT INTO IT.

Q: THAT'S PART OF THE POLICY, ISN'T IT?

A: I SUPPOSE THAT'S PART OF THE REASONS.

Q: OKAY. NOW, SO IN THIS INSTANCE, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO COMMANDER BUSHEY AT 2:10, DID HE TELL YOU TO GIVE SOME PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE TO THE PARENTS OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?

A: NO, HE DID NOT.

Q: YOU WERE CONCERNED ABOUT MR. O.J. SIMPSON AND YOU NEVER AT ANY TIME LOOKED INSIDE THE HOUSE TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A NUMBER WHERE YOU COULD CALL HIM IN THE HOUSE, RIGHT, INSIDE MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S HOUSE? YOU DIDN'T DO THAT?

A: WHEN YOU SAY CONCERNED ABOUT MR. SIMPSON, I WAS GOING TO MAKE NOTIFICATION TO MR. SIMPSON. WHAT I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT WAS THE WELFARE OF HIS CHILDREN.

Q: I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT I'M ASKING YOU, DID YOU LOOK INSIDE TO EXPEDITE ANY SEARCH OR TRYING TO FIND HIM BY LOOKING FOR HIS NUMBER INSIDE THE HOUSE?

A: I DID NOT DO THAT, SIR.

Q: OKAY. AND SO AS I UNDERSTAND IT, EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE OFF THE CASE AS OF 2:38, WHEN YOU AND YOUR -- THE OTHER OFFICERS LEFT TO GO OVER TO ROCKINGHAM, WHAT WAS YOUR PURPOSE IN GOING OVER TO ROCKINGHAM IF YOU WERE NOW OFF THE CASE?

A: TO GO OVER AND NOTIFY MR. SIMPSON OF WHAT I HAD BEEN TOLD TO DO AND POSSIBLY ASSIST TOM LANGE OR PHIL VANNATTER IF THEY NEEDED ANYTHING ELSE. WE WERE ALREADY UP. WE WERE THERE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. WELL, WAS THERE ANY PROBLEM -- NOW, THEY WERE NOW ON THE CASE AND THEY WERE THE BOTH SENIOR DETECTIVES FROM ROBBERY-HOMICIDE. THEY HAD NOW ARRIVED AT THE SCENE, RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: GOTTEN THERE AT 4:10 AND 4:25, RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: NOW ABOUT 5:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, RIGHT?

A: OKAY.

Q: AND DID YOU EVER HEAR PHIL VANNATTER SAY, "I USED TO WORK WEST LOS ANGELES. I KNOW WHERE THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE IS"? DID YOU EVER HERE HIM SAY THAT?

A: NO, I DON'T. I DON'T REMEMBER HIM EVER SAYING THAT. I KNOW THAT PHIL VANNATTER USED TO WORK WEST L.A.

Q: WOULD YOU BE SURPRISED THAT HE TESTIFIED HE KNEW WHERE ROCKINGHAM WAS AND HOW TO GET THERE FROM BUNDY? WOULD YOU BE SURPRISED BY THAT?

A: WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME AT ALL.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING WITH THE OTHER DETECTIVES WITH MARK FUHRMAN, DID YOU EVER HEAR HIM SAY, WHEN THE TWO OF YOU WERE JUST WAITING AROUND, "I KNOW THAT" -- STRIKE THAT -- "I KNOW WHERE O.J. SIMPSON LIVES BECAUSE I'VE BEEN THERE BEFORE"? EVER HEAR HIM SAY THAT IN YOUR PRESENCE?

A: I THINK THAT WAS FROM THE CONVERSATION WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WHERE HE LIVED AND HE SAID, "I KNOW HE LIVES OFF OF SUNSET SOMEPLACE. I'VE BEEN TO HIS HOUSE BEFORE, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHERE IT IS." THAT'S WHEN HE ASKED ANOTHER OFFICER TO RUN THE JEEP LICENSE PLATE. WE CAME BACK WITH THE ADDRESS. HE ASKED THAT OFFICER, "IS THAT ADDRESS -- WHERE IS THAT ADDRESS IN RELATION TO," AND RISKE SAID, "IT'S NEAR CLIFFWOOD," AND THEN MARK FUHRMAN SAYS, "YEAH, I KNOW WHERE IT'S AT."

Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN WAS THAT? WHAT TIME WAS THAT?

A: BEFORE WE EVER LEFT THE BUNDY LOCATION.

Q: ALL RIGHT. WELL, WHAT TIME?

A: PROBABLY FIVE MINUTES OR SO BEFORE WE LEFT.

Q: SO MAYBE ABOUT 4:55 OR THERE IN THAT TIME FRAME?

A: WE WERE PREPARING TO GO UP THERE AND WE WERE TRYING TO MAKE PLANS TO DO THAT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. IN ADDITION TO INDICATING THAT HE KNEW WHERE MR. O.J. SIMPSON LIVED, DIDN'T HE SAY HE HAD BEEN OVER THERE IN RESPONSE TO SOME DOMESTIC CALL BACK IN 1985? DIDN'T HE SAY THAT TO YOU?

A: HE NEVER TOLD ME WHY HE WAS UP AT THAT LOCATION. HE TOLD ME HE RESPONDED TO THAT CALL WHEN HE WORKED PATROL.

Q: HE DIDN'T TELL YOU WHY?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: DID YOU ASK HIM?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: DID YOU HEAR LANGE OR VANNATTER ASK HIM?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: NOW, BEFORE WE LEAVE BUNDY, WHILE AT THE SCENE -- YOU CAME THERE WITH THE CELLULAR TELEPHONE, DID YOU?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AND WAS THAT A CITY OF LOS ANGELES ISSUED CELLULAR TELEPHONE?

A: NO, IT'S NOT.

Q: IS THIS YOUR OWN PERSONAL CELLULAR TELEPHONE?

A: YES, IT IS.

Q: AND YOU MADE A NUMBER OF CALLS FROM THAT LOCATION THAT NIGHT; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: I MADE SEVERAL CALLS DURING THAT DAY -- THAT DAY, YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT.

MR. COCHRAN: CAN I -- MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR, GET THE EXHIBIT?

THE COURT: YES.

MR. COCHRAN: I'M PLACING ON THE BOARD NOW, YOUR HONOR, PEOPLE'S 60 FOR IDENTIFICATION.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: AND, DETECTIVE, SO THAT WE'RE CLEAR ABOUT THIS, THIS IS A RECORD OF YOUR CELLULAR CALLS MADE. LET'S TALK ABOUT JUNE 12TH AND ON JUNE 13TH. IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AND YOU GOT THIS CALL SHORTLY AFTER 1:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AND SO THAT WOULD BE 6-13 AFTER 1:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: YOU THEN MADE A NUMBER OF CALLS -- LET'S SEE -- ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE CALLS WITHIN ABOUT 12 MINUTES; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AFTER YOU GOT THE PHONE? WHERE WERE THOSE CALLS MADE TO?

A: THOSE WERE ALL CALLS MADE TO LOS ANGELES POLICE DETECTIVES' RESIDENCES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND THOSE WERE FIVE CALLS MADE ALMOST IMMEDIATELY AFTER YOU GOT THE CALL TO COME TO THE LOCATION?

A: YES. AS I HAD PREVIOUSLY STATED, THREE OF THOSE CALLS, THE DETECTIVES WERE UNABLE TO RESPOND FOR VARIOUS REASONS AND TWO OF THE CALLS WERE PEOPLE THAT DID RESPOND.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, WELL YOU WERE AT HOME AT THIS POINT, RIGHT?

A: NO. I WAS IN MY CAR.

Q: SO YOU -- LET'S SEE. YOU GOT THE CALL AT 1:00 O'CLOCK OR 1:05?

A: YES.

Q: AND YOU WERE IN YOUR CAR BY 1:18?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: YOU'RE A FAST DRESSER, AREN'T YOU?

A: I HAVE IT ALL LAID OUT FOR ME THE NIGHT BEFORE.

Q: I SEE. SO IN OTHER WORDS, YOU GET A CALL AT 1:00 O'CLOCK AND BY 1:18, YOU'RE DRIVING IN YOUR CAR?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: IN 18 MINUTES. ALL RIGHT.

A: I'VE GOTTEN IT DOWN TO A SCIENCE WITH --

Q: I SEE. YOU COULD HAVE CALLED THESE PEOPLE FROM YOUR HOME, IS THAT CORRECT, BUT YOU CALLED FROM YOUR CAR?

A: I MADE TWO PHONE CALLS FROM MY HOME TO OFFICER FUHRMAN OR DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND DETECTIVE ROBERTS TO INITIALLY GET THEM RESPONDING.

Q: THAT WAS RIGHT AT -- THAT WAS BETWEEN WHAT TIME AND WHAT TIME?

A: RIGHT AFTER I RECEIVED THE CALL.

Q: THAT WAS 1:00 O'CLOCK.

A: I MADE THE FIRST CALL TO MARK FUHRMAN I BELIEVE AT 1:05.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND THEN WHAT TIME DID YOU CALL ROBERTS?

A: WITHIN A COUPLE OF MINUTES AFTER THAT.

Q: SO BETWEEN 1:05 AND 1:08?

A: AS LONG AS IT TOOK ME TO LOOK UP HIS PHONE NUMBER AND DIAL THE PHONE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND IT'S YOUR TESTIMONY THAT THE OTHER FIVE CALLS BEGINNING AT 1:18, BETWEEN 1:18 AND 1:30 WERE TO WHOM?

A: OTHER LOS ANGELES POLICE DETECTIVES WHO WORKED OUT OF WEST LOS ANGELES THAT WERE ASSIGNED TO MY TABLE. AS I'VE TOLD YOU, I HAD THE MAC UNIT, THE HOMICIDE UNIT AND ANOTHER UNIT. SO I WAS GOING TO HAVE ADDITIONAL UNITS RESPOND TO ASSIST. THREE OF THOSE DETECTIVES WERE UNABLE TO RESPOND FOR PERSONAL REASONS.

Q: ALL RIGHT. LET'S TAKE -- YOU RECALL FIVE OF THEM ALTOGETHER?

A: ONE OF THOSE PHONE CALLS I BELIEVE IS A MISS -- I DIALED THE NUMBER WRONG. AND SO I HAD TO REDIAL IT AGAIN. I THINK THERE WAS ONLY FOUR CALLS MADE, BUT THERE'S FIVE INSTANCES HERE, BUT ONE OF THEM WAS A MISTAKE. WHEN I WAS DRIVING THE CAR, I MADE A PHONE CALL, I PUNCHED IN THE WRONG BUTTON.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO ONE WAS WRONG. SO THE OTHER FOUR WERE -- WHO WERE THE FOUR OFFICERS YOU WERE CALLING?

A: UMM, I BELIEVE ONE OF THEM WAS A FEMALE NAMED JAMIE VERMAAT.

Q: JAMIE WHO?

A: VERMAAT.

Q: COULD YOU SPELL THAT FOR THE COURT REPORTER?

A: V-E-R-M-A-A-T.

Q: DID YOU REACH HER?

A: NO.

Q: DID YOU CALL HER HOME?

A: YES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. WHO ELSE DID YOU CALL?

A: CALLED A DETECTIVE PAMELA HARRIS.

Q: AND WHERE DOES SHE WORK?

A: H-A-R-R -- OR WHERE DOES SHE WORK?

Q: YES. WELL -- SORRY. LET ME LET YOU FINISH SPELLING IT FIRST. H-A-R-R-I-S?

A: YES.

Q: WHERE DOES SHE WORK?

A: RIGHT NOW, SHE'S WORKING IN SAN PEDRO ON THE HARBOR DIVISION.

Q: BUT AT THAT TIME, WHERE DID SHE WORK?

A: WORKED WEST LOS ANGELES DETECTIVES.

Q: DID YOU REACH HER?

A: YES.

Q: DID SHE RESPOND TO THE LOCATION?

A: NO.

Q: YOU CALLED HER, YOU REACHED HER, SHE DIDN'T RESPOND?

A: WELL, LET ME EXPLAIN WHY WE WERE CALLING THESE INDIVIDUALS UP. WE HAD A PROGRAM IN WEST L.A. AT THAT TIME THAT IF WE HAD A HOMICIDE, WE WOULD TAKE PEOPLE THAT HAD NO HOMICIDE EXPERIENCE AT ALL OUT TO A HOMICIDE SCENE AND HAVE THEM JUST VISUALLY WALK WITH US AND SEE WHAT WE WERE DOING AS A TRAINING EXERCISE SO THEY WOULD GET HOMICIDE EXPERIENCE. SO THESE PEOPLE THAT I WERE CALLING AT THIS TIME WERE THESE PEOPLE THAT WERE ON THIS LIST. THEY HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO COME IN WHATSOEVER BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT ON CALL. IF IT TURNS OUT TO BE OKAY FOR THEM AND THEY HAVEN'T BEEN DOING ANYTHING THE NIGHT BEFORE AND THEY'VE GOTTEN PLENTY OF SLEEP, THEY WANT TO COME IN, THEY CAN COME IN. IF THEY DON'T WANT TO COME IN, I CAN'T MAKE THEM COME IN. THEY DON'T WORK MY UNIT.

Q: LET ME SEE IF I UNDERSTAND THIS. SO PAMELA HARRIS GETS A CALL AT 1:38 OR 1:40 TO GO OUT ON A HOMICIDE SCENE, SHE CAN EITHER SAY, "I'M GOING BACK TO SLEEP OR I CAN GO WITH YOU." IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?

A: WELL, HER REASONING THAT NIGHT THAT SHE COULDN'T COME IN WAS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME AND I TOLD HER SHE DIDN'T HAVE TO.

Q: OKAY. SO SHE DIDN'T COME.

A: RIGHT.

Q: OKAY. WHO ELSE DID YOU CALL?

A: I BELIEVE I CALLED DETECTIVE NOLAN.

Q: OKAY. DETECTIVE NOLAN, IS THAT A MALE OR FEMALE?

A: THAT'S A MALE.

Q: DID DETECTIVE NOLAN RESPOND?

A: YES.

Q: WAS HE AT THE SCENE AT SOME POINT?

A: YES.

Q: OKAY. WHAT'S HIS FIRST NAME?

A: TOM.

Q: AND WHO ELSE DID YOU CALL?

A: AND I DON'T RECALL WHO THE OTHER DETECTIVE WAS THAT I CALLED THAT DAY.

Q: DO YOU KNOW WHO THE FOURTH ONE WAS?

A: NO, BECAUSE THERE WAS A LIST -- THERE WAS --- LIKE I SAY, DETECTIVE I'S AND TRAINEES THAT WERE ON A LIST, AND I JUST CALLED THE FIRST THREE THAT WERE THERE.

Q: AND SO THE FOURTH ONE -- DID THE FOURTH ONE RESPOND AT ALL?

A: NO.

Q: SO OF THE ONES YOU CALLED, THE ONLY ONE WHO RESPONDED WAS NOLAN; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: WELL, MARK FUHRMAN RESPONDED.

Q: WELL, OF THIS BUNCH OF CALLS THAT YOU MADE --

A: YES. TOM NOLAN RESPONDED.

Q: OF THE FIVE, ONLY TOM NOLAN, CORRECT?

A: RIGHT. AGAIN, SIR, ONE OF THOSE WAS A BAD PHONE NUMBER, A MISTAKEN PHONE NUMBER. SO THERE WAS ONLY FOUR.

Q: I UNDERSTAND. BUT OF THE FOUR, THE ONE INDIVIDUAL WHO RESPONDED WAS TOM NOLAN?

A: THAT'S RIGHT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU MENTIONED A COUPLE OF TIMES THAT THIS PARTICULAR UNIT THAT YOU HANDLED IN WEST LOS ANGELES WAS CALLED M-A-C OR --

A: M-A-C, YES.

Q: M-A-C?

A: MAC UNIT.

Q: MAC UNIT? AND IN THAT CONNECTION, WERE YOU AWARE THAT MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON HAD FILED AN ANNOYING PHONE CALL CRIME REPORT FOR THE PERIOD MARCH 2ND, 1992 TO DECEMBER 4TH, 1992?

A: I -- EXCUSE ME.

Q: ARE YOU AWARE OF THAT?

A: I DIDN'T HAVE THAT UNIT AT THAT TIME, SIR.

Q: WERE YOU AWARE OF IT AT THAT POINT?

A: NO.

Q: YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT AT ALL?

A: NO.

Q: DID YOU KNOW ABOUT A SUSPECT IN THAT REGARD?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: WHO WAS IN CHARGE OF THAT UNIT AT THAT TIME, IF YOU KNOW? WHO PRECEDED YOU?

A: WE DIDN'T HAVE A MAC UNIT AT THAT TIME, SIR. IT WAS A DIFFERENT UNIT CALLED A CAPS UNIT, CRIMES AGAINST PERSON UNIT, AND IT WAS ALL REORGANIZED IN 1994. SO IT WAS HANDLED BY THE CAPS UNIT IF THAT WAS THE KIND OF CALL OR REPORT IT WAS AND I DON'T KNOW WHO WAS RUNNING THE CAP UNIT IN WHATEVER YEAR -- 1992 YOU JUST SAID?

Q: YEAH. 1992.

A: I DON'T KNOW WHO WAS RUNNING THAT CAP UNIT AT THAT TIME.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, DID YOU HAVE MORE THAN ONE CELL PHONE WITH YOU THAT NIGHT?

A: I ONLY HAD ONE PERSONAL CELL PHONE, MY OWN.

Q: SO WHEN YOU GOT TO THE SCENE, THE CELL PHONE THAT YOU MADE THESE CALLS ON THERE ON PEOPLE'S 60 FOR IDENTIFICATION, DID YOU GIVE THAT CELL PHONE TO SOMEONE?

A: NO.

Q: DID YOU GIVE RISKE A CELL PHONE AT SOME POINT? STRIKE THAT. DID YOU GIVE ROSSI -- RISKE, ROSSI -- DID YOU GIVE ROSSI A CELL PHONE AT SOME POINT?

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

MR. COCHRAN: I'M GETTING SOME HELP TO THE LEFT, YOUR HONOR. MAY I REPHRASE THAT QUESTION?

THE COURT: YES.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU GIVE RISKE A CELL PHONE THAT NIGHT WHEN YOU LEFT TO GO OVER TO ROCKINGHAM?

A: IF I GAVE HIM A PHONE, WHICH I DON'T --

Q: CAN YOU ANSWER THAT YES OR NO?

A: WELL, I MAY HAVE GIVEN HIM A PATROL OFFICER'S CELL PHONE THAT'S ASSIGNED TO WEST L.A. DETECTIVE -- I MEAN WEST L.A. PATROL. I DID NOT GIVE HIM MY CELL PHONE.

Q: I'M JUST ASKING YOU NOW, THINK IN YOUR MIND. DID YOU GIVE RISKE A CELL PHONE THAT NIGHT WHEN YOU LEFT BUNDY AND WENT OVER TO ROCKINGHAM, SAID, "I'LL CALL YOU IF I WANT TO REACH YOU," OR WHATEVER?

A: I DON'T RECALL GIVING HIM A TELEPHONE.

Q: YOU DON'T RECALL THAT? ALL RIGHT. NOW, DID YOU HAVE TWO CELL PHONES OR JUST ONE?

A: I HAD ONE.

Q: IF HE SAID YOU GAVE HIM A CELL PHONE, WOULD HE BE MISTAKEN?

A: NO. BECAUSE AS I SAID, THERE ARE OTHER CELL PHONES THAT WERE OUT THERE AT THAT CRIME SCENE THAT BELONGED TO WEST L.A. PATROL. THE SERGEANTS HAD THEM. SO IF HE PICKED UP A CELL PHONE, HE MAY HAVE PICKED IT UP FROM ME WHICH I HAD TAKEN AWAY FROM SOME SERGEANT THAT WAS OUT THERE AND GIVEN TO HIM. I DID NOT GIVE HIM MY PERSONAL CELL PHONE.

Q: WHAT ABOUT ROSSI? DO YOU RECALL GIVING ROSSI A CELL PHONE?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: YOU HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF THIS AT ALL; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: I DID NOT GIVE ROSSI OR RISKE MY CELLULAR TELEPHONE.

Q: YOU KEPT IT WITH YOU; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AND THE REASON THOSE NUMBERS ON THERE, THE LINES ARE REDACTED, BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE PHONE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE THAT YOU CALL THAT YOU LIKE TO KEEP PRIVATE; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: ALL THOSE NUMBERS THAT ARE CROSSED OUT ARE PERSONAL PHONE NUMBERS OF DETECTIVE OR POLICE OFFICERS' HOME RESIDENTIAL PHONE NUMBERS.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, DID DETECTIVES LANGE AND VANNATTER ARTICULATE FOR YOU WHY THEY WERE GOING TO GO OVER TO ROCKINGHAM? WHY WERE THEY GOING OVER TO ROCKINGHAM?

A: WELL, I THINK IT WAS JUST A CONVERSATION THAT CAME ABOUT THAT WE -- I TOLD THEM I HAD TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION. THEY STATED THAT THEY WOULD PROBABLY WANT TO GO ALONG WITH US. THEY WERE THE LEAD INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ON THE CRIME. THEY MIGHT WANT TO TALK TO HIM. THEY MAY HAVE A STATEMENT. IT WAS JUST A -- IT WAS FOUR DETECTIVES MAKING A -- YOU KNOW, A DECISION TO GO UP THERE BASED ON A COUPLE OF FACTS AND WE WENT.

Q: LET ME SEE IF I UNDERSTAND THIS. ALL FOUR DETECTIVES, ALL HOMICIDE DETECTIVES LEAVE THE BODIES OUT THERE, THE CORONER HAS NOT BEEN NOTIFIED, YOU ALL GO OVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION TO GIVE NOTIFICATION TO A MAN THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER HE'S HOME OR NOT. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING TO US?

A: WELL, THE FOUR OF US WENT UP THERE TO DO THAT AND TWO OF US WERE GOING TO STAY AND TWO OF THEM SHOULD COME RIGHT BACK.

Q: BUT YOU SAY -- THE QUESTION IS, YOU ALL WENT OVER THERE?

A: YES, WE DID.

Q: AT THAT POINT, NO ONE HAD CALLED THE CORONER REGARDING THESE BODIES; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: NO ONE HAD CALLED A CRIMINALIST TO COME OUT AND START COLLECTING EVIDENCE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: I DON'T KNOW THAT.

Q: WELL, AS FAR AS YOU KNOW.

A: AS FAR AS I KNOW, NO CRIMINALIST WAS CALLED.

Q: YOU KNOW FUNG WASN'T THERE, RIGHT?

A: I DON'T KNOW THAT HE WASN'T CALLED ALREADY.

Q: YOU KNOW HE WASN'T THERE THOUGH, DON'T YOU?

A: HE WAS NOT THERE.

Q: EVEN WHEN YOU CAME BACK, HE WASN'T THERE, WAS HE?

A: WHEN I CAME BACK, I WALKED UP AND TALKED TO THE LIEUTENANT. I DID NOT GO BACK OVER TO BUNDY. SO I DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS THERE.

Q: WELL, YOU NEVER SAW FUNG AT ANY TIME THAT MORNING WHILE YOU WERE THERE, DID YOU, SIR?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU WERE THERE AT 10 O'CLOCK THAT MORNING, RIGHT? RIGHT?

A: OFF AND ON.

Q: SO ALL FOUR OF YOU DECIDE TO GO OVER TO ROCKINGHAM AND YOU GO IN TWO SEPARATE CARS, RIGHT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: HAD -- BY THE WAY, BEFORE YOU LEFT THE LOCATION THERE AT BUNDY, HAD ANYONE ASCERTAINED WHETHER OR NOT MR. GOLDMAN HAD DRIVEN A CAR TO THAT LOCATION?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: DID YOU EVER FIND THAT OUT THAT MORNING, THAT HE HAD IN FACT DRIVEN A VEHICLE THERE PARKED SOMEWHERE?

A: I DIDN'T FIND THAT OUT UNTIL LATE THAT AFTERNOON.

Q: OKAY. WHEN DID YOU FIND THAT OUT?

A: RIGHT AROUND 3:00, 3:30 IN THE AFTERNOON I BELIEVE.

Q: AND HOW DID YOU FIND THAT OUT? SOMEBODY TOLD YOU?

A: I RECEIVED A PHONE CALL AT WEST L.A. DETECTIVES.

Q: ALL RIGHT. DID YOU -- WHEN YOU WERE OUT THERE THAT MORNING, WAS ANYBODY CHECKING ON THE VEHICLES THAT WERE PARKED IN AND AROUND BUNDY AND THE DOROTHY LOCATION?

A: I THINK THE OFFICERS WROTE THE LICENSE NUMBERS DOWN. I DON'T KNOW THAT ANYBODY DID ANY INVESTIGATING INTO THOSE CARS, NO.

Q: DID YOU FIND OUT THAT MR. GOLDMAN HAD IN FACT DRIVEN A VEHICLE THERE AT SOME POINT?

A: AS I SAID, 3:00, 3:30 IN THE AFTERNOON, I WAS TOLD THAT BY A PHONE CALL.

Q: OKAY. AND DID YOU FIND OUT WHERE THAT VEHICLE WAS PARKED, SIR?

A: YES, I DO, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE IT WAS PARKED. SOMEWHERE AROUND DOROTHY AND BUNDY OR SOMETHING.

Q: AROUND DOROTHY AND BUNDY, THIS INTERSECTION WE'VE SEEN SO MANY TIMES?

A: I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE EXACTLY ON THAT CORNER, HOW FAR FROM THAT CORNER.

Q: WHAT KIND OF CAR WAS IT?

A: I NEVER SAW THE CAR. UMM, I BELIEVE I WAS TOLD IT WAS A TOYOTA, BUT I NEVER SAW THE VEHICLE.

Q: BUT YOU NEVER SAW THE VEHICLE. YOU DON'T RECALL IT WHEN YOU WERE OUT THERE, RIGHT?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO WHO WAS DRIVING THE VEHICLE WHEN YOU AND FUHRMAN LEFT? WHICH VEHICLE WERE YOU DRIVING?

A: I WAS DRIVING MY VEHICLE.

Q: OKAY. AND FUHRMAN AND YOU HAD COME TO THE SCENE IN THAT SAME VEHICLE?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND THEN YOU -- WHEN YOU WENT OVER TO THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION, DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT YOU INVITED A PHOTOGRAPHER TO COME WITH YOU?

A: NO, SIR, WE DID NOT.

Q: WERE THERE ANY UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICERS WHO ACCOMPANIED YOU FROM BUNDY OVER TO ROCKINGHAM?

A: NO. WE REQUESTED ONE AFTER WE HAD GOTTEN THERE.

Q: SO AT FIRST, IT WAS JUST THE FOUR OF YOU DETECTIVES; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: IN TWO SEPARATE CARS; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AND BECAUSE ALL FOUR OF YOU LEFT THE SCENE LEAVING THE BODIES THERE; THAT'S WHEN LIEUTENANT ROGERS WAS LEFT THERE?

A: LIEUTENANT ROGERS WAS LEFT IN CHARGE. HE WAS VANNATTER'S -- EXCUSE ME -- VANNATTER AND LANGE'S SUPERVISOR. SO I WOULD IMAGINE THEY LEFT HIM IN CHARGE.

Q: DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE CALLED FOR THE CORONER?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE CALLED FOR A CRIMINALIST?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU THEN DROVE OVER TO THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AND YOU DESCRIBED FOR US GETTING -- YOUR GETTING TO THE LOCATION; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND AGAIN, YOUR PURPOSE WAS TO GO THERE JUST TO BREAK THE NEWS TO MR. SIMPSON; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: THAT'S CORRECT.

Q: AND VANNATTER AND LANGE JUST DECIDED THEY'D JUST COME ALONG TO FIND OUT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: NO, I DON'T THINK THEY JUST DECIDED TO COME ALONG. IT WAS THEIR CASE. THEY HAD A RIGHT TO COME ALONG. THEY WERE THE INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ON THE CASE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. THEY HAD A RIGHT TO COME ALONG -- BY THE WAY, THEY DIDN'T HAVE A SEARCH WARRANT, DID THEY, AT THAT POINT?

A: NO, SIR.

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.

THE COURT: OVERRULED. EXCUSE ME. SUSTAINED. THAT'S IRRELEVANT.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: AT ANY RATE, YOU RODE TO THE LOCATION; IS THAT RIGHT? AND WHAT TIME DID YOU GET TO ROCKINGHAM?

A: I BELIEVE IT WAS SHORTLY AFTER 5:00.

Q: AND YOU DESCRIBED FOR US HOW YOU TRIED TO -- YOU RANG THE BELL TO TRY TO GET INSIDE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: RANG THE BELL TO TRY GET SOMEONE INSIDE TO ANSWER IT.

Q: TO ANSWER? AND AT SOME POINT, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN ON HIS OWN CLIMBED OVER THE FENCE AND OPENED THE FENCE AND LET THE OTHERS OF YOU IN; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: WHEN YOU SAY ON HIS OWN, HE WENT UNASSISTED OVER THE FENCE, BUT HE WENT OVER THE WALL BECAUSE VANNATTER OR LANGE HAD TOLD HIM TO DO THAT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND THAT THE TWO WHO WERE IN CHARGE APPARENTLY TOLD HIM TO DO THAT, BUT HE WENT -- NOBODY INVITED HIM OVER THERE. HE DID IT ON HIS OWN, RIGHT?

A: IT DID IT ON THE DIRECTION OF THE SUPERVISOR.

Q: HE CLIMBED OVER THE FENCE?

A: YES.

Q: AND HE OPENED THE GATE; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: HE UNLATCHED SOMETHING ON THE GATE THAT CAUSED IT TO OPEN. I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE DID.

Q: AND AT THE TIME THAT -- WHAT TIME WAS THAT WHEN HE WENT OVER THE FENCE, CLIMBED OVER THIS FENCE?

A: WELL, IT WAS SHORTLY BEFORE 5:00 O'CLOCK, 10 MINUTES BEFORE. I AM SORRY. 10 MINUTES BEFORE 6:00 O'CLOCK.

Q: WELL, LET'S SEE. YOU LEFT BUNDY ABOUT 5:00 OR SO?

A: UH-HUH. YES. I AM SORRY.

Q: YES? ALL RIGHT. YOU GOT OVER THERE AND HOW LONG WERE YOU OUTSIDE BEFORE FUHRMAN CLIMBED OVER THIS FENCE?

A: 30, 35 MINUTES PROBABLY.

Q: DID THE WESTEC PEOPLE COME DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME?

A: TWO OF THEM DID.

Q: OKAY. WAS THERE A SERGEANT?

A: EVENTUALLY, YES.

Q: DO YOU REMEMBER EITHER OF THE WESTEC INDIVIDUALS' NAMES?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: YOU HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM?

A: JUST THE ONE.

Q: IS THAT WHEN YOU WENT INTO ALL THIS EFFORT TO TRY TO GET THE PHONE NUMBER OF MR. SIMPSON?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: IS THAT RIGHT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: WAS THERE A BLACK AND WHITE POLICE VEHICLE THERE PRESENT BEFORE MARK FUHRMAN CLIMBED OVER THAT FENCE?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: WHAT TIME DID THE BLACK AND WHITE ARRIVE, IF YOU RECALL?

A: I WOULD SAY IN THE AREA OF 20 MINUTES TO 6:00.

Q: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU KNOW THE NAMES OF THE OFFICERS WHO WERE THERE AT THAT POINT? WAS THERE MORE THAN ONE?

A: YES. I BELIEVE IT WAS OFFICER ASHTON, A-S-H-T-O-N, AND I BELIEVE HIS PARTNER WAS GONZALES.

Q: OFFICER GONZALES?

A: YES.

Q: AND THEY WERE THERE YOU THINK BY 20 OF 6:00; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: I DON'T KNOW ACTUALLY WHAT TIME THEY WERE THERE. THEY WERE THERE BEFORE THEY WENT OVER THE WALL BECAUSE I REQUESTED THEM.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND THEN YOU DIDN'T GO OVER THE WALL. FUHRMAN WENT OVER THE WALL; IS THAT RIGHT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AND AFTER HE WENT OVER THE WALL, HE THEN LET THE REST OF YOU IN; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND YOU DESCRIBED FOR US THAT AFTER GAINING ENTRANCE AND GOING OVER THIS WALL -- BY THE WAY, YOU ULTIMATELY PASSED BY OR SAW A MAN BY THE NAME OF KATO KAELIN; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: AND HE WAS TALKED TO FAIRLY EARLY THAT MORNING; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

A: HE WAS TALKED TO, YES.

Q: DID YOU TELL US IN YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION THAT KATO KAELIN TOLD YOU HE DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER OR NOT O.J. SIMPSON HAD LEFT TOWN?

A: HE SAID SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT. I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID, MR. COCHRAN.

Q: ALL RIGHT. YOU SO TESTIFIED YESTERDAY --

MR. COCHRAN: WELL, MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? I WOULD LIKE TO MARK DEFENDANT'S NEXT IN ORDER D-1024.

(DEFT'S D-1024 FOR ID = DOC DTD 6-13-94)

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, MAY WE APPROACH?

THE COURT: YES, WITH THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)

THE COURT: WE'RE OVER HERE AT SIDEBAR.

MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, I'VE NEVER SEEN THIS DOCUMENT BEFORE. THERE'S NO DISCOVERY NUMBER ON IT.

MR. COCHRAN: IT'S THEIR DOCUMENT.

MS. CLARK: WHERE IS THE DISCOVERY NUMBER, COUNSEL?

MR. COCHRAN: LET ME SHOW IT TO YOU. THIS IS THEIR DOCUMENT, TAKEN FROM THEM. A COPY WAS FAXED DOWN HERE TODAY. I DIDN'T HAVE IT WITH ME. THIS STATEMENT WAS TAKEN BY THE DETECTIVE 6:00 O'CLOCK THAT MORNING.

MS. CLARK: I DON'T SEE ANY DISCOVERY NUMBER ON IT. I DON'T RECOGNIZE IT.

MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S MY REPRESENTATION. IT'S THEIR DOCUMENT. THAT'S WHERE I GOT IT AT 6:00 O'CLOCK.

MS. CLARK: I DON'T RECOGNIZE IT. I DON'T KNOW WHO TOOK THE STATEMENT. WE DON'T HAVE ANY FOUNDATION LAID WITH THIS WITNESS AS TO HOW THE STATEMENT WAS TAKE, BY WHOM, WHEN.

THE COURT: I TAKE IT WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO DO IS GO UP THERE AND ASK HIM IF HE RECOGNIZES IT OR WHAT IT IS?

MR. COCHRAN: ABSOLUTELY. I'M ONLY USING IT TO REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION. VANNATTER USED THIS STATEMENT IN HIS AFFIDAVIT TO GET THAT SEARCH WARRANT. IT'S RIGHT IN THE COURT'S FILE. THEY'RE JUST WASTING TIME, YOUR HONOR. THAT'S ABSOLUTELY THE TRUTH. THIS DOCUMENT --

MS. CLARK: IS COUNSEL REPRESENTING THAT IT WAS ATTACHED TO THE SEARCH WARRANT?

MR. COCHRAN: NO. THIS DOCUMENT WAS USED -- ATTACHED IN THE SEARCH WARRANT. WHEN THEY LIED TO THE MAGISTRATE, THEY USED -- THEY WROTE THIS IN PENCIL -- AND THE CONVERSATION WITH BRIAN KATO KAELIN THAT MORNING, HE HAD SAID THAT THIS WAS ONE OF THE LIES THE COURT FOUND WHEN HE HAD THIS RECKLESS DISREGARD --

MS. CLARK: I DON'T THINK THE COURT FOUND ANY LIES.

MR. COCHRAN: WELL, THE COURT DID FIND RECKLESS DISREGARD FOR THE TRUTH, OKAY. AND WE ARE NOT DEBATING THAT, BUT I'M JUST TELLING YOU THIS DOCUMENT -- WE HAD THAT DOCUMENT SENT LAST NIGHT. THIS IS ONE OF THE DOCUMENTS THAT THE COURT WAS AWARE OF WHEN HE MADE THE FINDING BECAUSE THEY KNEW --

MS. CLARK: THIS DOCUMENT WAS NOT ATTACHED TO THE SEARCH WARRANT.

THE COURT: NO. I KNOW.

MR. COCHRAN: IT WAS NOT. I SAID IT WAS USED AT THAT HEARING TO ESTABLISH THAT --

THE COURT: STOP. AT THIS POINT, THE OBJECTION IS PREMATURE BECAUSE HE HASN'T OFFERED IT, HASN'T READ ANYTHING FROM IT. I ASSUME YOU ARE JUST GOING TO SHOW IT TO HIM AND ASK HIM IF THAT CHANGES ANY OF HIS TESTIMONY.

MR. COCHRAN: YES, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: YOU'RE NOT READING IT INTO THE RECORD AT THIS POINT WITHOUT FOUNDATION.

MR. COCHRAN: I HAVEN'T DONE THAT.

THE COURT: I KNOW.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL. PROCEED.

MR. COCHRAN: MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: YOU MAY.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: I PLACE BEFORE YOU A DOCUMENT THAT PURPORTS TO BE A STATEMENT OF BRIAN JERARD KAELIN.

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. OBJECTION. THE WITNESS CAN BE ASKED -- THERE HAS BEEN NO FOUNDATION LAID.

MR. COCHRAN: JUST LAYING FOR THE RECORD WHAT THE DOCUMENT IS.

THE COURT: OVERRULED. THE DOCUMENT HAS TO BE IDENTIFIED FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE RECORD.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, I WANT YOU TO LOOK AT THIS STATEMENT AND I WANT YOU TO READ THE DATE IT WAS TAKEN AND TIME, AND I WANT YOU TO READ AND I WANT YOU TO SPECIFICALLY PAY ATTENTION TO THE SECOND PARAGRAPH OF THAT STATEMENT AND I WANT YOU TO SEE IF YOU SEE -- WELL, LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION.

A: OKAY.

Q: HAVE YOU READ THAT TO YOURSELF?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: OKAY. AND BY THE WAY, WHO TOOK A STATEMENT FROM KATO KAELIN THAT NIGHT WHEN YOU WERE OUT THERE ABOUT 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING? WHICH OFFICER?

A: I HAVE NO IDEA.

Q: DID YOU SEE THE MAN WHO WORKED FOR YOU, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, TALKING TO KATO KAELIN?

A: AT ONE TIME, YES.

Q: AND DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PRINTING ON THIS DOCUMENT? LOOK AT THAT DOCUMENT.

A: I'VE NEVER SEEN THIS WRITING BEFORE.

Q: ALL RIGHT. THAT'S NOT FUHRMAN'S WRITING?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: ALL RIGHT. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THAT REPORT BEFORE?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: DOES THAT REPORT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION ABOUT WHAT BRIAN KATO KAELIN SAID ABOUT THE LAST TIME HE SAW O.J. SIMPSON --

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

MR. COCHRAN: MAY I FINISH THE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR? I'M ASKING HIM TO REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION ABOUT THE LAST TIME HE SAW KATO KAELIN ON JUNE 12TH, 1994.

THE COURT: WOULD IT REFRESH HIS -- KATO KAELIN'S RECOLLECTION AS TO THE LAST TIME HE SAW KATO KAELIN?

MR. COCHRAN: NO, YOUR HONOR. I'M ASKING HIM IF HIS REVIEW OF THIS REPORT REFRESHES HIS RECOLLECTION ABOUT WHAT KATO KAELIN SAID.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: YOU ARE WELCOME.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: GOOD QUESTION. SO YOU CAN ANSWER THAT IF YOU CAN.

A: IT DOES NOT REFRESH MY MEMORY AT ALL OF WHAT KATO KAELIN SAID THAT NIGHT TO ME.

Q: YOU TALKED TO HIM?

A: NO. I TALKED TO HIM VERY, VERY BRIEFLY WHEN HE FIRST ANSWERED THE DOOR.

Q: OKAY. AND DID YOU EVER ASK HIM IF HE KNEW WHETHER OR NOT O.J. SIMPSON WAS AT HOME?

A: YES. I ASKED HIM IF HE KNEW WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS AT.

Q: ALL RIGHT. DID HE --

A: -- OR IF HE WAS AT HOME. I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY WHAT I ASKED HIM.

Q: DID KATO KAELIN TELL YOU THAT HE WAS PRESENT WHEN --

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

MR. COCHRAN: I CAN ASK HIM THIS QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. I CAN ASK THIS QUESTION. I CAN ASK HIM.

THE COURT: I HAVEN'T HEARD THE QUESTION YET. LET'S HEAR THE QUESTION.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: OKAY. DID KATO KAELIN TELL YOU THAT HE HAD SEEN O.J. SIMPSON GET IN --

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS GOING TO BE ALL HEARSAY. COUNSEL IS TESTIFYING.

THE COURT: OVERRULED.

MR. COCHRAN: I'M NOT TESTIFYING. I'M ASKING A QUESTION.

THE COURT: LET'S HEAR THE QUESTION. COUNSEL, I HAVEN'T HEARD THE QUESTION YET. MR. COCHRAN.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ASK THE QUESTION.

MR. COCHRAN: THANK YOU.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: DID KATO KAELIN TELL YOU THAT HE HAD SEEN O.J. SIMPSON GET INTO A LIMOUSINE TO GO TO THE AIRPORT AT -- ON JUNE 12TH, 1994 BETWEEN 11:00 AND 11:15 P.M.? DID HE TELL YOU THAT?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: HE NEVER SAID THAT TO YOU?

A: I NEVER INTERVIEWED THE MAN.

Q: WELL, NO. WHEN YOU ASKED HIM IF HE KNEW WHERE O.J. SIMPSON WAS, HE DIDN'T TELL YOU HE HAD SEEN HIM GET INTO A LIMOUSINE?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: HE DIDN'T TELL YOU HE WAS LEAVING TOWN?

A: NO, SIR.

Q: HOW LONG DID YOU TALK TO HIM?

A: VERY BRIEFLY, JUST FOR A COUPLE OF SECONDS.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO WE'RE CLEAR, WHEN YOU ASKED HIM WHERE O.J. SIMPSON WAS, I WANT YOU TO THINK CAREFULLY, TELL US WHAT DID HE SAY TO YOU.

A: AS I TOLD YOU, I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID. I ASKED HIM IF HE KNEW WHERE HE WAS. I BELIEVE YESTERDAY, I SAID -- I SAID -- I SAID I DON'T THINK -- OR HE DIDN'T KNOW. I'M NOT SURE THAT WAS A TRUE STATEMENT. I DO NOT RECALL --

Q: YOU WANT TO CHANGE IT?

A: WELL, I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE IT TO ANYTHING BECAUSE I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY WHAT THE MAN DID SAY. HE DID NOT TELL ME THESE THINGS. HE POINTED ME OVER TOWARDS ARNELLE'S ROOM AND THAT'S WHERE I WALKED OVER. I TALKED TO MR. KATO KAELIN FOR FIVE SECONDS.

Q: ALL RIGHT. I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED NOW. YOU THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID YESTERDAY, RIGHT?

A: YES.

Q: AND DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE THAT?

A: NO. I'M JUST TELLING YOU I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHAT THE WORDS WERE THAT HE SAID ABOUT HE'S NOT HOME OR WHERE HE WAS AT. THAT'S ALL I AM TELLING YOU, IS I DO NOT RECALL EXACTLY THE WORDS HE USED.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND THE REPORT DOESN'T REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AT ALL?

A: I DIDN'T ASK THEM THOSE QUESTIONS AND HE DIDN'T GIVE ME THOSE ANSWERS.

Q: OKAY. HE THEN -- YOU DO RECALL HIM DIRECTING YOU TO ARNELLE --

A: YES, SIR.

Q: IS THAT CORRECT? AND WHEN YOU WENT DOWN TO ARNELLE SIMPSON'S ROOM, YOU AROUSED HER FROM HER SLEEP; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: YES.

Q: AND THAT -- AS I UNDERSTAND IT, DID YOU COME IN THE BACK WAY TO THE SIMPSON HOME OR DID YOU COME IN THE FRONT DOOR, IF YOU RECALL? THIS ROUTE THAT YOU TOOK FROM ARNELLE SIMPSON'S HOUSE INTO THE SIMPSON HOME, HOW DID YOU GO?

A: THERE'S --

Q: WELL, LET'S SEE IF I CAN HELP YOU OUT.

A: I DIDN'T GO IN THE FRONT DOOR, MR. COCHRAN.

Q: ALL RIGHT. LET'S SHOW US WHERE YOU WENT.

MR. COCHRAN: YOUR HONOR, WE'RE ABOUT TO TAKE A LOOK AT PEOPLE'S 66 IF THE COURT PLEASES.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. PEOPLE'S 66, DIAGRAM.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU SHOW US AGAIN -- SHOW US HOW YOU WENT AND WHERE YOU WENT?

A: WE WALKED TO ARNELLE'S ROOM, DOWN THIS WALKWAY, UP THESE STEPS AND I BELIEVE THERE'S A SERIES OF DOORS RIGHT HERE AT THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE. SHE UNLOCKED ONE OF THESE DOORS. I BELIEVE IT WAS THE DOOR FARTHEST TO OUR LEFT AND THAT'S THE WAY WE WENT INSIDE THAT HOUSE.

Q: WHEN SHE UNLOCKED THAT DOOR, WAS THERE AN ALARM ON THAT HOUSE?

A: I DON'T KNOW, SIR.

Q: DID YOU HEAR THE ALARM GO OFF?

A: NO ALARM WENT OFF.

Q: DID YOU SEE HER PRESS SOME BUTTONS ON THE WALL?

A: I DIDN'T SEE HER DO ANYTHING.

Q: DO YOU KNOW IF THERE'S ANY KIND OF AN ALARM FOR WESTEC ON THAT WALL THAT SHE ENTERED?

A: I WOULD NOT KNOW THAT.

Q: YOU ARE SURE AS YOU SIT HERE NOW THAT YOU WENT IN SOME DOOR TOWARD THE REAR OF THE HOUSE?

A: YES, SIR.

Q: BUT YOU DID NOT GO AROUND AND COME IN THE FRONT?

A: I'M POSITIVE.

Q: YOU ARE POSITIVE OF THAT?

A: POSITIVE.

Q: AND WHO WAS PRESENT WITH YOU WHEN YOU WENT -- WALKED THIS ROUTE? WHO WAS PRESENT?

A: ARNELLE SIMPSON, VANNATTER, TOM LANGE AND MYSELF.

Q: AND ALL OF YOU -- ALL OF YOU WENT IN THE REAR, THAT REAR DOOR?

A: I BELIEVE SO.

Q: WAS FUHRMAN WITH YOU AT THAT POINT?

A: DIDN'T SEE HIM AT THAT POINT.

Q: DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE WAS AT THAT POINT?

A: NO, I DON'T.

Q: SO ONCE HE CLIMBED OVER THE WALL, YOU GOT IN -- YOU -- YOU WERE SEPARATED FROM -- FROM MARK FUHRMAN; IS THAT CORRECT?

A: NO. THE ONLY TIME WE WERE SEPARATED FROM MARK FUHRMAN IS WHEN WE STOPPED AND TALKED TO KATO KAELIN. I BELIEVE HE STAYED THERE AND TALKED TO KATO KAELIN BECAUSE HE DID NOT WALK DOWN WITH ME TO ARNELLE'S ROOM.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND YOU DESCRIBED THAT WHEN HE CAME -- WHEN YOU WENT INSIDE THE HOUSE ALONG WITH LANGE AND VANNATTER, HE WASN'T THERE EITHER?

A: I DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS BEHIND ME. I DID NOT SEE HIM WALK IN BEHIND US.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO IT WAS YOU ALL WERE INSIDE THE HOUSE, IS THAT RIGHT, AT THAT POINT?

A: I'M SORRY, SIR?

Q: IT WAS YOU, VANNATTER AND LANGE INSIDE OF MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE AT THAT POINT AND ARNELLE?

A: AND IF ANYBODY FOLLOWED US IN, I DIDN'T TURN AROUND TO LOOK TO SEE WHO WAS COMING.

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU WERE NOW INSIDE MR. SIMPSON'S HOME?

A: WOULD HAVE TO BE RIGHT AROUND 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING. I MADE THE PHONE CALL AT 6:05 AND THAT WAS DONE VERY SHORTLY AFTER ENTERING THE HOUSE.

Q: THEN YOU HAD THIS CONVERSATION AT THAT POINT WITH -- WITH ARNELLE SIMPSON?

A: YES.

Q: ABOUT WHERE HER FATHER WAS?

A: YES.

Q: AND I ASKED YOU EARLIER WHETHER OR NOT SHE TOLD YOU HER FATHER WAS OUT OF TOWN AND UH --

MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, HEARSAY.

MR. COCHRAN: WELL, LET ME -- MAY I FINISH THE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: YES.

Q: BY MR. COCHRAN: AND I ASKED YOU EARLIER WHETHER OR NOT ARNELLE SIMPSON TOLD YOU THAT HER FATHER WAS OUT OF TOWN AT THAT POINT.

MS. CLARK: HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: OVER HERE AT THE SIDEBAR, COUNSEL.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)

THE COURT: WHAT'S THE OBJECTION?

MS. CLARK: HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: WHAT BASIS?

MS. CLARK: ON WHAT BASIS? THE QUESTION ITSELF ASKED FOR NOTHING BUT THAT, "DID ARNELLE SIMPSON TELL YOU, DID KATO KAELIN TELL YOU THAT?" AND THE COURT IS PERMITTING COUNSEL TO GO AHEAD AND ASK THESE QUESTIONS WHEN THEY BEGIN WITH OBVIOUSLY HEARSAY RESPONSES; "DID THEY TELL YOU THE FOLLOWING?" WHEN I'VE ASKED THESE QUESTIONS, THE COURT HAS CUT ME OFF AT THE KNEES, HASN'T EVEN PERMITTED ME TO COMPLETE THE QUESTION. NOW THE COURT HAS PERMITTED MR. COCHRAN TO NOT ONLY COMPLETE THE QUESTION, BUT ELICIT AN ANSWER THAT IS ONLY A HEARSAY RESPONSE. WHAT ELSE COULD THERE BE IN THIS QUESTION BUT HEARSAY?

THE COURT: WHAT'S THE EXCEPTION, MR. COCHRAN?

MR. COCHRAN: ABSOLUTELY, YOUR HONOR. MAY I JUST ADDRESS, FIRST OF ALL, COUNSEL NEEDS TO TALK ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENED BEFORE WHEN WE COME UP HERE. I ASKED HIM THIS QUESTION, WHETHER OR NOT ARNELLE SIMPSON INDICATED TO HIM WHAT WOULD BE AN EXCEPTION TO THE HEARSAY RULE, YOUR HONOR. THE QUESTION WAS, DID SHE SAY HER FATHER WAS IN CHICAGO BECAUSE I HAVE A STATEMENT AND LANGE -- SO SHE KNOWS, LANGE AND VANNATTER ARE GOING TO SAY THAT'S IN THE REPORT. THIS IS NOTHING I AM MAKING UP. THEY SAID THEY WANT THE TRUTH HERE. THEY CALL CATHY RANDA AND GET THE LOCATION.

THE COURT: THE QUESTION IS, "DID ARNELLE SIMPSON TELL YOU HER FATHER WAS IN CHICAGO"?

MR. COCHRAN: YES. THAT WAS THE QUESTION.

MS. CLARK: THAT WAS THE QUESTION.

MR. COCHRAN: HER FATHER IS IN CHICAGO. AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT AND THAT'S -- SHE DID BRING IT ON DIRECT, AS MR. BAILEY POINTED OUT, THEY THEN CALLED CATHY RANDA, WHICH THEY BROUGHT OUT ALREADY.

MS. CLARK: I THOUGHT THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION. THE QUESTION WAS --

THE COURT: LET ME READ IT. LET'S SEE WHAT THE QUESTION WAS.

(BRIEF PAUSE.)

THE COURT: THE QUESTION WAS, "DID ARNELLE SIMPSON TELL YOU HER FATHER WAS OUT OF TOWN?"

MR. COCHRAN: YES. AND, JUDGE, THAT'S --

MS. CLARK: WAIT A MINUTE. CAN WE GO BACK?

MR. DARDEN: IT ASKS FOR HEARSAY.

MR. COCHRAN: THAT'S NOT HEARSAY. IT'S NOT HEARSAY, IT'S NOT OFFERED FOR THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER ASSERTED. SHE THEN GAVE HIM THE PHONE NUMBER TO CATHY RANDA SO HE COULD FIND OUT WHERE HE WAS EXACTLY, WHAT SHE ELICITED ALREADY. THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO SHOW.

MS. CLARK: I WASN'T PERMITTED TO ELICIT ANY OF THIS.

MR. COCHRAN: TALK TO THE COURT.

THE COURT: MISS CLARK, YOU WERE ALLOWED TO ASK QUESTIONS; "WHAT DID YOU DO THEN?" "WELL, THEN WE TALKED TO ARNELLE SIMPSON. SHE SAID SHE DIDN'T KNOW WHERE HER FATHER WAS, BUT CATHY DID." I ALLOWED YOU TO DO THAT. I ALLOWED --

MS. CLARK: I ASKED, "WHAT DID YOU DO," AND THAT ELICITED I THINK THE RESPONSE.

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

THE COURT: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OUR RECESS AT THIS TIME FOR THE AFTERNOON. I HAVE A DISPUTE I WANT TO SETTLE WITH THE LAWYERS THAT OBVIOUSLY IS GOING TO TAKE A LITTLE TIME. PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITION TO YOU; DON'T DISCUSS THE CASE AMONGST YOURSELVES, DON'T FORM ANY OPINIONS ABOUT THE CASE, DON'T CONDUCT ANY DELIBERATIONS UNTIL THE MATTER HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO YOU, DON'T ALLOW ANYBODY TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU REGARDING THE CASE. AND WE'LL STAND IN RECESS AS FAR AS THE JURY IS CONCERNED UNTIL 9:30 TOMORROW MORNING. WE ALSO OF DNA ISSUES WE NEED TO TAKE UP. AND, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, YOU ARE EXCUSED UNTIL TOMORROW MORNING AT 9:00 O'CLOCK. THANK YOU, SIR. LET ME SEE COUNSEL IN CHAMBERS, PLEASE, WITHOUT THE REPORTER.

(AN OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION WAS HELD IN CHAMBERS.)

(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

THE COURT: BACK ON THE RECORD IN THE SIMPSON MATTER. MR. HODGMAN, MR. SCHECK, MR. BLASIER, I UNDERSTAND YOU WANT TO MEET WITH THE COURT IN CHAMBERS TO RESOLVE THIS DNA ISSUE?

MR. HODGMAN: THAT'S CORRECT, YOUR HONOR. WELL, AND -- YES. YOU COULD PUT IT THAT WAY. MR. YOCHELSON WILL BE JOINING ME AS WELL.

THE COURT: THEN WE WILL STAND IN RECESS AS FAR AS THE CASE IS CONCERNED WITH THE JURY AT 9:30. I'D LIKE THE COUNSEL HERE AT 9:00 O'CLOCK.

(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD IN CHAMBERS, NOT REPORTED.)

(AT 4:30 P.M., AN ADJOURNMENT WAS TAKEN UNTIL, FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 17, 1995, 9:00 A.M.)

SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

DEPARTMENT NO. 103 HON. LANCE A. ITO, JUDGE

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA, )
)
PLAINTIFF, )
)
) VS. ) NO. BA097211
)
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, )
)
)
DEFENDANT. )

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 16, 1995

VOLUME 89

PAGES 14917 THROUGH 15173, INCLUSIVE
(PAGES 14893 THROUGH 14916, INCLUSIVE, SEALED)

APPEARANCES: (SEE PAGE 2)

JANET M. MOXHAM, CSR #4588
CHRISTINE M. OLSON, CSR #2378 OFFICIAL REPORTERS

APPEARANCES:

FOR THE PEOPLE: GIL GARCETTI, DISTRICT ATTORNEY
BY: MARCIA R. CLARK, WILLIAM W.
HODGMAN, CHRISTOPHER A. DARDEN,
CHERI A. LEWIS, ROCKNE P. HARMON,
GEORGE W. CLARKE, SCOTT M. GORDON
LYDIA C. BODIN, HANK M. GOLDBERG,
AND DARRELL S. MAVIS, DEPUTIES
18-000 CRIMINAL COURTS BUILDING
210 WEST TEMPLE STREET
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90012

FOR THE DEFENDANT: ROBERT L. SHAPIRO, ESQUIRE
SARA L. CAPLAN, ESQUIRE
2121 AVENUE OF THE STARS
19TH FLOOR
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90067

JOHNNIE L. COCHRAN, JR., ESQUIRE
BY: CARL E. DOUGLAS, ESQUIRE
SHAWN SNIDER CHAPMAN, ESQUIRE
4929 WILSHIRE BOULEVARD
SUITE 1010
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90010

GERALD F. UELMEN, ESQUIRE
ROBERT KARDASHIAN, ESQUIRE
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, ESQUIRE
F. LEE BAILEY, ESQUIRE
BARRY SCHECK, ESQUIRE
ROBERT D. BLASIER, ESQUIRE

I N D E X

INDEX FOR VOLUME 89 PAGES 14917 - 15173

-----------------------------------------------------

DAY DATE SESSION PAGE VOL.

THURSDAY FEBRUARY 16, 1995 A.M. 14917 89
P.M. 15033 89
-----------------------------------------------------

LEGEND:

MS. CLARK - MC
MR. HODGMAN - H
MR. DARDEN D
MR. KAHN - K
MR. GOLDBERG - GB
MR. GORDON - G
MR. SHAPIRO - S
MR. COCHRAN - C
MR. DOUGLAS - CD
MR. BAILEY - B
MR. UELMEN - U
MR. SCHECK - BS
MR. NEUFELD - N

-----------------------------------------------------

CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES

PEOPLE'S
WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS VOL.

PHILLIPS, RONALD 89
(RESUMED) 14920MC 14991C
(RESUMED) 15043C

-----------------------------------------------------

ALPHABETICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES

PEOPLE'S
WITNESSES DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS VOL.

PHILLIPS, RONALD 89
(RESUMED) 14920MC 14991C
(RESUMED) 15043C

EXHIBITS

PEOPLE'S FOR IN
EXHIBIT IDENTIFICATION EVIDENCE

PAGE VOL. PAGE VOL.

67 - POSTERBOARD 14932 89
ENTITLED "DETECTIVE PHILLIPS' CALL TO CHICAGO,

66-A - DIAGRAM 14945 89
COMPUTER PRINTOUT OF THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE
WITH RED MARKINGS

68 - POSTERBOARD WITH 14949 89
4 PHOTOGRAPHS

68-A - PHOTOGRAPH OF 14949 89
SIDE OF 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM AVENUE

68-B - PHOTOGRAPH OF 14949 89
GROUND AT 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM AVENUE

68-C - PHOTOGRAPH OF 14949 89
GROUND WITH GLOVE AT 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM
AVENUE

68-D - PHOTOGRAPH OF 14949 89
CLOSE-UP OF GROUND WITH GLOVE AT 360 NORTH
ROCKINGHAM AVENUE

69 - 8-PAGE DOCUMENT 14962 89
TRANSCRIPT FROM DEPARTMENT OF CORONER DATED
JUNE 13, 1994

70 - 1-PAGE DOCUMENT 14980 89
ENTITLED "VOLUME 1 - POLICE/COMMUNITY AFFAIRS"

EXHIBITS
(CONTINUED)

DEFENSE FOR IN
EXHIBIT IDENTIFICATION EVIDENCE

PAGE VOL. PAGE VOL.

1016 - 1-PAGE DOCUMENT 15011 89
ENTITLED "VOLUME 4 - LINE PROCEDURES/FIELD
PROCEEDINGS"

1017 - 1-PAGE DOCUMENT 15013 89
ENTITLED "HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE SECTION
12050"

1018 - 1-PAGE DOCUMENT 15017 89
ENTITLED "SPECIAL ORDER NO. 21 DATED
NOVEMBER 17, 1993, FROM THE OFFICE OF THE
CHIEF OF POLICE

1019 - AUDIOTAPE FROM 15044 89
THE DEPARTMENT OF CORONER

1019-A - 8-PAGE DOCUMENT 15044 89
TRANSCRIPTION OF PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT 1019,
AUDIOTAPE FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF CORONER,
DATED JUNE 13, 1994

1020 - PHOTOGRAPH OF 15066 89
BLACK JEEP

1021 - 1-PAGE DOCUMENT 15085 89
ENTITLED "MURDER/FOLLOW-UP REPORT DR
NO. 94-0817431/32, PAGE 2"

1022 - PHOTOGRAPH 15096 89
COMPUTER PRINOUT OF TELEPHONE SPEED DIALER

1023 - 4-PAGE DOCUMENT 15123 89
ENTITLED "NOTES BY DETECTIVE FUHRMAN"

1024 - 1-PAGE DOCUMENT 15154 89
DATED JUNE 13, 1994, FROM BRIAN JERARD KAELIN

??

15124