SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
SHARON RUFO,
Plaintiff,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON et al.,
Defendants
FREDRIC GOLDMAN, etc., et al.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al.,
Defendants
LOUIS H. BROWN, etc.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,
Defendant.
Volume 1
Deposition of CHRISTIAN REICHARDT, taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard, 10th Floor, Los Angeles, California, commencing at 10:08 a.m., on Friday, March 22, 1996, before David S. Coleman, CSR #4613, pursuant to Subpoena.
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS FREDRIC GOLDMAN, ET AL:
MITCHELL, SILBERBERG & KNUPP
BY: DANIEL M. PETROCELLI, ESQ.
PETER B. GELBLUM, ESQ
11377 West Olympic Boulevard
Sixth Floor
Los Angeles, California 90064-1683
FOR THE PLAINTIFF ESTATE OF BROWN:
JOHN QUINLAN KELLY, ESQ.
330 Madison Avenue
New York, New York 10017-5090
(212) 682-1700
-and-
NATASHA ROIT, ESQ.
116 North Robertson Boulevard
Suite 705
Los Angeles, California 90048
FOR THE PLAINTIFF SHARON RUFO
HORNBERGER & CRISWELL
BY: MICHAEL A. BREWER, ESQ.
444 South Flower Street
Third-First Floor
Los Angeles, California 90071
FOR THE DEFENDANT ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON:
BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER
BY: MELISSA S FINK
2850 Ocean Park Boulevard
Suite 300
Santa Monica, California 90405-2936
-and-
BAILEY, FISHMAN & LEONARD
BY: DANIEL LEONARD, ESQ.
66 Long Wharf
Boston, Massachusetts 02110
FOR THE WITNESS :
DOMINICK W. RUBALCAVA, ESQ.
2115 Main Street
Santa Monica, California 90405
ALSO PRESENT: PETER GELBLUM
WITNESS:
CHRISTIAN H. REICHARDT - VOLUME 1
Examination by Mr. Petrocelli
UNANSWERED QUESTIONS:
(None)
EXHIBITS:
Plaintiffs' Description Identified
166 Deposition Subpoena of Christian Reichardt dated February 15, 1996, 5 pages
167 Interview with Barbara Walters of Christian Reichardt dated October 21, 1994, 3 pages
168 Multi-page document entitled "Pocket/day-timer, January 1994"
CHRISTIAN H. REICHARDT, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Good morning, Mr. Reichardt. My name is Daniel Petrocelli, and I represent Plaintiff Fredric Goldman. We will go around the room and have all counsel state their appearances.
MR. BREWER: Michael Brewer for Plaintiff Sharon Rufo.
MR. LEONARD: Daniel Leonard for O.J. Simpson.
MS. FINK: Melissa Fink for O.J. Simpson.
MS. ROIT: Natasha Roit for the Brown estate.
MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you.
Q: Have you ever testified under oath before?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: On how many occasions?
A: Once.
Q: When was that?
A: At the trial for Mr. Simpson.
Q: That was the first time you ever testified under oath?
A: Yes.
Q: Are you under any medication?
A: No, I'm not.
Q: What is your occupation?
A: I'm a doctor of chiropractic.
Q: How long have you been a chiropractor?
A: I graduated in 1983.
Q: And began practicing --
A: In 1983.
Q: Here in Los Angeles?
A: Started practicing in Illinois for one year and then moved to Los Angeles in 1984. I have been practicing since then.
Q: How old are you?
A: I'm 36.
Q: What is your educational background?
A: Starting from kindergarten?
Q: No. After high school.
A: After high school I went to College of Du Page, which is a junior college in Illinois, and then went to chiropractic college also in Illinois.
Q: When did you - what degree did you get from undergraduate school?
A: Was a pre-med course, so no degree, but then a bachelor of science at the National College of Chiropractic and then a doctorate degree in chiropractic from also the National College of Chiropractic.
Q: What year was that?
A: 1983.
Q: Where have you practiced in Los Angeles since 1984 to the present?
A: Started in Malibu and still practice in Malibu, and I have an office there as well as an office in Santa Monica.
Q: When did you acquire the Santa Monica office?
A: In 1991.
Q: In 1994, prior to the death of Nicole Brown Simpson, you had a Malibu office and a Santa Monica office?
A: That's correct.
Q: How many employees did you have at that time?
MR. LEONARD: Are we talking about 1994, Dan?
MR. PETROCELLI: At that time, correct.
THE WITNESS: In both offices combined?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes.
A: I'd say five in - altogether, both offices.
Q: And can you name them for me, please?
A: [Names Deleted.]
Q: Okay.
A: Pam. I don't even recall her last name right now. And billing lady that came in one day a week. I don't recall her name either.
Q: Are these individuals still under your employment?
A: Only [Name Deleted].
Q: But they were all employed by you as of June 12, 1994. Correct?
A: Yeah.
Q: Was Faye Resnick also employed by you in 1994?
A: She came in and did some office work.
Q: Did you pay her?
A: I paid her, yeah. She was working there at the office for a period of about six weeks.
Q: In l994?
A: In 1994. And basically performed very poorly and was consequently let go.
Q: You fired her?
A: I asked her to not come back into the office.
Q: You fired her. Correct?
A: Well, how is it when you have a relationship with somebody that works in the office and it doesn't work out? Do you fire them? Do you ask them to not come back? What's the legal terminology? I don't know.
Q: But in your opinion, you fired her.
A: I let her go.
Q: Okay. When was that?
A: That was just before March 18th.
Q: Why does that date stick out in your mind?
A: Because that's when she had her surgery. And she had just started working right after the earthquake, which was January 17th.
Q: Between January 17, 1994 and March 18, 1994, how regularly did Ms. Resnick work for you?
A: Was she supposed to or did she actually?
Q: Actually.
A: Probably two half days a week. And there were times when she'd just basically pop in and out of the office. So combined, probably two half days a week.
Q: Was one of the reasons that you asked her to help you out was because of the earthquake and the dislocation caused by the earthquake?
A: Right.
Q: How much did you pay her?
A: I paid her $500 for each two week pay period.
Q: From approximately January 17 through March 18, 1994. Right?
A: Yeah. Or shortly before the 18th, something like that.
Q: Now, I asked you pursuant to a subpoena to bring with you a variety of documents and other materials. I am going to attach this as the next exhibit in order. I will make copies of it at a break. I am going to put Exhibit 166 up here just so we don't forget. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 166 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I hand you Exhibit 166, Mr. Reichardt. Have you seen that before?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: And have you done anything to respond to it?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: What have you done?
A: I called the phone company to get the phone records and was told that the phone records would have to be subpoenaed by the attorneys.
Q: If we subpoenaed those records, you will consent to our obtaining them?
A: Absolutely, yeah.
Q: Okay.
A: And I've brought my day-timer from that time period.
Q: What did you do to locate records other than call the phone company?
A: The only records - other records that I would have from that period of time that was requested is in my desk right where the other daytimers are. I just pulled it out.
Q: In your office?
A: No. At my home.
Q: At your home? You have a desk at your home?
A: Yes.
Q: What is your home address?
A: [Address Deleted].
Q: Was that your home address in June of 1994?
A: Yeah.
Q: How long have you been living there?
A: Since 1987.
Q: Did you ever take any photographs of O.J. Simpson or Nicole Brown Simpson or -
A: No.
Q: --videotapes?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever get any?
A: I -- when Faye and I used to live together, yes, we did. We used to have some photographs that disappeared as Faye disappeared to write a book.
Q: You're saying that the photographs used to be at your place on Montana but no longer are there?
A: That's correct.
Q: And currently you have possession of no photographs?
A: No.
Q: Tape recordings?
A: No.
Q: Anything?
A: No.
Q: Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Do you have canceled checks going back to early 1994?
A: The bank would have them, most likely.
Q: You have bank statements?
A: Yeah.
Q: Do you have any records indicating the receipt of money from O.J. Simpson?
A: Yeah, I probably would have that.
Q: What would those records be?
A: Probably a deposit slip or a deposit showing up on my bank statement.
Q: Do you have copies of those statements at home?
A: No, I don't have them at home.
Q: You can request them from the bank?
A: Right.
Q: And what bank is that?
A: Bank of America at the Brentwood branch.
Q: And will you do so?
A: I could do that.
Q: Okay.
A: Yeah.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Just for the record, if there are requests that will be made, if you could make those to us afterwards at your convenience in writing or any way you'd like, we can - you can address a letter to me itemizing what you'd like, and we will endeavor to comply with all your requests.
MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you.
Q: What I would like is all bank records and other documents that would indicate any financia1 dealings or transactions between you and O.J. Simpson or any of his entities or any of his representatives.
A: That would be very simple.
Q: Okay. Have you ever been interviewed by any member of the media in connection with the death of Nicole Brown?
A: One time, yes.
Q. Who was that?
A: Barbara Walters.
Q: You gave a filmed interview to Barbara Walters?
A: That's correct.
Q: When was that?
A: I believe it was in October '94.
Q: Have you spoken to newspaper writers, magazine writers, authors, anyone?
A: No.
Q: You know there have been a number of books written about O.J. Simpson and the death of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Has anyone ever contacted you regarding those books?
A: Oh. everybody - lots of people have contacted me about it.
Q: And you have declined to comment?
A: That's correct.
Q: Without exception?
A: Yeah.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Well, may I have a moment?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Everybody got routed towards Dominick's office.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And Dominick Rubalcava is your attorney. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: How long has Mr. Rubalcava been your attorney?
MR. RUBALCAVA: Go ahead and answer that. '87?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So since the death of Nicole Brown Simpson, Mr. Rubalcava has been your attorney?
A: That's correct.
Q: And he has been advising you in connection with inquiries made regarding your knowledge of the facts and circumstances of Nicole's death?
A: Can you repeat that?
(Pending question read.)
THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You have had a chance to confer with your attorney?
A: That's correct.
Q: Would you like to amplify your answer?
A: Right. Amplify the answer as to interviews concerning the case, it was basically on the way out of the courthouse, stopped and answered some questions from reporters right outside the courthouse, but that was the only other incident.
Q: In connection with the trial testimony that you gave?
A: Right.
Q: And you gave that testimony on behalf of O.J. Simpson. Correct?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: A subpoena by the court.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You were asked to testify by O.J. Simpson's lawyers. Correct?
A: I was asked to testify by the court.
Q: What do you mean, "the court"? Judge Ito called you up?
A: Well, I got subpoenas from different attorneys' offices.
Q: Who served the subpoena on you?
A: I don't recall.
MR RUBALCAVA: It was Mr. Cochran's office.
THE WITNESS: Mr. Cochran's office. So perhaps I'm not understanding your question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You understood that Johnnie Cochran was O.J. Simpson's lawyer. Right?
A: I understand that.
Q: And you understood that Johnnie Cochran was asking you to come to court to testify. Correct?
A: That's correct. Phrase it like that, then I understand the question.
Q: Okay. And before you testified at Mr. Johnnie Cochran's request, did you meet with him?
A: I had dinner with him.
Q: Was that dinner the one and only time you had ever met with any lawyer or representative of O.J. Simpson in connection with the criminal proceedings?
A: That's correct.
Q: So you never spoke to Robert Kardashian, for example?
A: No.
Q: And to this day have never spoken to him. Correct?
A: I've spoken to him as a friend, but not in connection with the case.
Q: Have you ever spoken to Robert Shapiro?
A: Only at the court.
Q: At the court?
A: While I was at the court. And I ran into him in a restaurant several months ago.
Q: Have you ever spoken to F. Lee Bailey?
A: No.
Q: Or any -
A: Just at the court again.
Q: You spoke to Mr. Shapiro and Mr. Bailey at court in a meeting?
A: No. Just as, "Hello. How are you? Nice to meet you."
Q: In the case of both of those lawyers, that's all you said?
A: Yeah.
Q: And again, the court appearance you're referring to is the trial?
A: That's right.
Q: Did you testify at the preliminary hearing?
A: No.
Q: Or at any of the Grand Jury proceedings?
A: No.
Q: Other than the Johnnie Cochran dinner, which we'll get to, were you ever interviewed by any member of Mr. Simpson's staff, including investigators. where they took a statement and asked you what you knew?
A: No.
Q: And tape-recorded it?
A: No. I met with Mr. Pavelick once, but it was over coffee an also was not a formal setting, a statement or tape recording.
Q: Who is Pavelick?
A: Bill Pavelick is one of the investigators for Mr. Simpson's team.
Q: When you met Mr. Pavelick for coffee, is that the first time you had ever met him?
A: Yes.
Q: And is that the only time you had ever met him?
A: That's correct.
Q: Have you ever spoken to A.C. Cowlings?
A: Ever in -
Q: Ever.
A: Yeah.
Q: Is he a friend of yours?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever speak to Mr. Cowlings regarding anything having to do with Mr. Simpson's predicament?
A: Not really.
Q: Are you unsure of yourself? You said, "Not really."
A: No. I met A.C. a couple times at the - at O.J.'s house, and we just exchanged some words, friendly words, and that's it.
Q: Before Mr. Simpson's incarceration or after?
A: After.
Q: Before Mr. Simpson - before Nicole's death, had you ever met A.C. Cowlings?
A: I met him once briefly, very briefly, couple minutes.
Q: During the entire time - Withdrawn. From, June 12, 1994 until the day that Mr. Simpson was released from jail in October of 1995, did you ever have a conversation with A.C. Cowlings?
A: No, I did not have a conversation with him. I left him a message at his machine.
Q: When was that?
A: That must have been approximately two weeks, two and a half weeks after the murders.
Q: And what was your message?
Q: The message was that A.C. had called the house -
Q: Whose house?
A: My house. - and talked to Faye, and Faye was acting rather sporadic and slammed the phone down, and I called - I asked Faye for A.C.'s phone number, and I left a message back at A.C.'s machine saying that Faye's not feeling well at this time and that when Faye's feeling better, that we would sit down with him and talk.
Q: Were you present when Faye was talking to A.C. Cowlings?
A: Yes.
Q: The entire time?
A: Yeah.
Q: How long did that conversation last?
A: A minute.
Q: And why did you feel it was necessary to contact Mr. Cowlings?
A: Because when he called, Faye put it on the speakerphone, and he inquired how Faye was feeling and was very friendly and polite, and he said he would love to sit down with her sometime and just talk, and Faye started screaming at him on the speakerphone and basically said, "Leave me alone. I don't want to have anything to do with anybody," and slammed down the phone. And I thought it was rather strange in how she was reacting, because he just wanted to sit down and talk, so I called him back and I said, "Look, you know, she's not feeling well."
Q: This was about a week or so after -
A: No. It was -
Q: - the murder?
A: It was after Faye came out of rehab and was doing only the day care at the rehab center. So she was staying at home at night, at the house at night.
Q: Again, this was a week or so after the murders?
A: Must have been two weeks.
Q: Two weeks?
A: Two weeks, two and a half weeks, somewhere in there.
Q: And you knew, of course, that A.C. Cowlings at the time of that telephone call to Faye Resnick was a friend of O.J. Simpson's.
A: Yes.
Q: And you had briefly met him before. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Prior to this occasion when A.C. Cowlings called Faye Resnick to talk, how many times had A.C. Cowlings called you on the phone?
A: Never.
Q: How many times had A.C. Cowlings called Faye Resnick on the phone?
A: I don't know.
Q: In your presence.
A: Never.
Q: How many times had Faye Resnick informed you that she received a telephone call from A.C. Cowlings?
A: Never.
Q: It was clear to you, was it not, that A.C. Cowlings was calling Faye Resnick to talk about O.J. Simpson. Correct?
A: Or about the murders or - yeah.
Q: And you thought it was inappropriate for Faye Resnick not to speak to him. Correct?
A: No. I thought it was inappropriate the way she reacted.
Q: You wanted Faye to talk to him. Correct?
A: That's not - was not up to me. It's up to Faye to decide whether she wants to talk to him. I thought it was inappropriate how she screamed at him.
Q: You asked Faye to talk to A.C. Cowlings. Right?
MR. LEONARD: Object as leading.
THE WITNESS: I said, "Why wouldn't you want to talk to him?" It's up to Faye to decide whether she wants to talk to him, not me.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You said, "Why wouldn't you want to talk to him?" True?
A: Right.
Q: What did she say?
A: She screamed. She just flipped out and ran downstairs.
Q: She had just lost her dearest friend. Correct?
A: Yeah, well, she was just going through drug rehab.
Q: You can talk about drugs when we get to drugs. I am not really focused on drugs right now. Okay? You will get a chance to talk about drugs. What was my question?
(Pending question read.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Nicole Brown was a dear friend of Faye Resnick. Right?
A: That's right.
Q: You don't deny that, do you?
A: No.
Q: And Faye Resnick was very upset over Nicole's murder. Correct?
A: Well, that's where I'm trying to let you know. If somebody goes to drug rehabilitation, everything gets amplified significantly. So I think it's very difficult to differentiate right now why she reacted like that. Was it because she lost a friend or she was going through drug rehabilitation.
MR. PETROCELLI: I move to strike the answer as nonresponsive.
Q: I would like you to answer my question.
MR. LEONARD: Maybe-
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me.
Q: Maybe Mr. Leonard can ask you those kinds of questions. Can we get back to my question, please.
MR. LEONARD: No, there is no reason for that kind of a comment, Mr. Petrocelli.
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Leonard, if you want to examine your witness at the appropriate time, you may do so. I am examining this witness, and I am not getting answers to my questions, and I am going to press for answers.
MR. LEONARD: I think he is answering your questions.
MR. PETROCELLI: So what do you want me to do? Agree with you and move on?
MR. LEONARD: Why don't you ask another question.
MR. PETROCELLI: You want to take the deposition?
MR. LEONARD: It's your deposition. Go ahead.
MR. PETROCELLI: Exactly. It is my deposition. That's my point. Can you go back to my question, please.
(Pending question read as follows: "Q. And Faye Resnick was very upset over Nicole's murder. Correct?")
THE WITNESS: I don't think that's a question I can answer with yes or no because I don't know Faye's state of mind at the time.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you think it's - that Faye had a kind of relationship with Nicole Brown -
A: Yes, she did. Excuse me.
Q: - that when her friend was murdered; that she would have been upset about it?
A: Yes
Q: Now were you on drugs at that tune?
A: No.
Q: Were you upset?
A: Yes.
Q: Over Nicole's murder?
A: Absolutely.
Q: Were you grief-stricken over it?
A: Absolutely.
Q: Did Faye have a closer relationship with Nicole than you did?
A: Absolutely.
Q: So is it fair to say that she was grief-stricken?
A: Absolutely.
Q: More than you?
A: Absolutely.
Q: Irrespective of drugs. Correct?
A: Excuse me?
Q: Irrespective of drugs. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Thank you. That's all I want to know.
A: Okay.
Q: In fact, you felt so strong about her talking to Mr. Cowlings that you called Mr. Cowlings. Correct?
MR. LEONARD: I am objecting to the leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: True?
A: I felt she acted not very respectful to him, so out of respect for all the people involved, because I know A.C. was grieving, I called him back and said, "Look, at some later time we'll talk to you."
Q: Is it your testimony that you called A.C. Cowlings back to apologize for Faye and nothing more?
A: Basically, yeah.
Q: And you didn't mention anything about, "We'll get together and talk at some other time"?
A: Yeah, that's what I said: "We'll call when she feels better."
Q: "We'll call." Who is the "we"?
A: We'll call. You know, we'll call.
Q: You and Faye Resnick?
A: Faye, yeah.
Q: How many times -
A: Faye, A.C, and I and -
Q: Excuse me. How many times had you called A.C. Cowlings up before -
A: Never.
Q: - this event?
A: Never.
Q: This was the first time?
A: That's correct.
Q: How did you get his phone number?
A: Faye had it.
Q: After that telephone call -Withdrawn. What else did you say in your message to A.C. Cowlings -
A: That was it.
Q: - other than, "We'll get together and talk"?
A: That was it. When Faye feels better.
Q: And did you ever get together and talk?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: Because there was no need. Faye didn't want to, so there was no need to do it.
Q: And Faye told you she didn't want to. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Faye believed O.J. Simpson killed Nicole, didn't she?
A: That's what she said, yeah.
Q: She told that to you immediately when you first talked to her following Nicole's death. True?
A: That's right.
MR. LEONARD: Object to the leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: True?
A: That's correct.
(Peter Gelblum enters the deposition.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And Faye Resnick obviously knew that A.C. Cowlings was a very, very close friend of O.J. Simpson. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: In fact, Mr. Simpson's closest friend. True?
A: I don't know whether she knew that or believed that. I think she knew that they were very close.
Q: Have you spoken to any other members of Mr. Simpson's entourage?
A: I talked to Dan briefly on Wednesday evening.
Q: And by "Dan," you are not referring to me, of course. You're referring to Dan Leonard.
A: Yeah.
Q: Attorney for O.J. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: And why don't you tell me about your conversation with Dan.
A: We briefly talked on Wednesday evening just about procedures of today, that we will be here in the morning.
Q: Procedures of today. Correct?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Meaning today's deposition. Right?
A: Today's deposition.
Q: And, of course, you have a lawyer: Mr. Rubalcava. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And without getting into the substance of your conversations, you've spoken to your lawyer about today's proceedings. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: Did you call Dan?
A: No.
Q: Dan called you?
A: No. I talked to Dan at Mr. Simpson's house.
Q: By the way, you've never met me, have you?
A: No.
Q: You've never spoken to me before. Right?
A: No, I haven't.
Q: And you haven't spoken to any lawyer for Fred Goldman. Correct?
A: No, I haven't.
Q: And you haven't met Mr. Brewer before, either. Right?
A: No, I haven't.
Q: Or spoken to any lawyer for Sharon Rufo?
A: No.
Q: You haven't met Natasha Roit before, have you?
A: No.
Q: Or John Kelly?
A: No.
Q: Or any other lawyer for the Brown estate?
A: No, I haven't.
Q: When was your meeting with Dan and O.J. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Well, I am going to object to that. It wasn't a meeting.
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me.
MR. LEONARD: No. You just need to get -
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me, Dan. Let the witness testify. Okay?
THE WITNESS: It wasn't a meeting. It was a phone call.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. It wasn't a meeting; it was a phone call?
A: Right.
Q: Who called whom?
A: I believe Dan was at the phone at Mr. Simpson's house when I arrived at Mr. Simpson's house on Wednesday evening.
Q: So you went over to the house of O.J. Simpson Wednesday. Right?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: And Mr. Simpson handed you the phone. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And said -
A: That's correct.
Q: And said, "Dan's on it." Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And then you picked up the phone and you spoke to Dan. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: Was your lawyer present?
A: No, he wasn't.
Q: Was this the first time you had spoken to Dan Leonard?
A: I had met Dan briefly at Mr. Simpson's house a couple months ago.
Q: So you have spoken to Dan Leonard twice?
A: Yeah, two or three times.
Q: What's the third time?
A: I don't recall. If I stop over at Mr. Simpson's house and if Dan happens to be there, we say hello.
Q: Have you spoken to any other lawyer for Mr. Simpson in this civil suit, other than Dan Leonard?
A: Concerning the case or just -
Q: Concerning anything.
A: Yeah. I've met basically all the members of the team that defended Mr. Simpson.
Q: Who are the members of the team that you've met?
A: Mr. Cochran, met Mr. Douglas, met Mr. Bailey, Robert Kardashian, Mr. Blasier.
Q: Anyone else?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: And you met these people on multiple occasions, I take it?
A: Some of them on multiple. Mr. Douglas I think I only met at the court.
Q: Bailey at the court?
A: Right.
Q: Blasier?
A: Blasier I met at Mr. Simpson's house.
Q: Douglas?
A: Only at the court.
Q: Cochran. Dinner?
A: Dinner and -
Q: And other occasions?
A: At court.
Q: Dinner and at court. No other places?
A: I had a meeting with him once at his office that lasted about 10 minutes, 15 minutes.
Q: Any other occasions?
A: No.
Q: Now, Mr. Kardashian, you indicated, was a friend of yours. Right?
A: Acquaintance. I met him only three or four times.
Q: When?
A: At some dinner evenings. I met him sometimes when we dropped Faye's daughter off at his house to play with his children.
Q: How many times - Withdrawn. Did you know Robert Kardashian before Nicole's death?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And you had met him several times -
A: Right.
Q:- before Nicole's death. Is that right?
A: Right.
Q: And since Nicole's death how many times have you spoken to him?
A: I think only once. The day after the verdict or the day of the verdict.
Q: Where did you talk to him?
A: Excuse me?
Q: Where did you talk to him?
A: At O.J.'s house.
Q: You were at the victory party at Mr. Simpson's house following his release from jail?
MR. LEONARD: Object to the form of the question, the characterization.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Excuse me?
A: I don't think it could be characterized as a party, but I was there for about an hour right after Mr. Simpson arrived at his house, and then I 1eft.
Q: There were a lot of people there. Right?
A: No. At the time when I was there, there were very few people. There was just the family.
Q: Just his close family members?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you.
A: And me.
Q: And you left after Mr. Simpson arrived?
A: That's correct.
Q: Mr. Cowlings was there also. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Why were you there?
A: When a friend gets out of jail, then, you know, l think it's nice to be there and -
Q: Did you invite yourself?
A: Yeah.
Q: Who did you talk to to get permission to go there?
A: The family.
Q: Who's "the family"?
A: The sisters and the mother.
Q: You know them all?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You're a close friend of O.J. Simpson's. Right?
A: Yeah, we're friends.
Q: Not close?
A: What's a "close friend"?
Q: You have trouble with that?
A: With what?
Q: You consider him a close friend of yours?
A: I consider him a close enough friend of mine, yeah.
Q: You consider him a dear friend of yours?
A: Yeah.
a: You're a lot closer to him now than ever before. True?
A: That's correct.
Q: Prior to Mr. Simpson's arrest, did you ever play golf with him?
A: Yeah, I think we played down in Cabo.
Q: Couple times?
A: I was not a golf player, much of a golf player at the time, so I just went with him over the course, hit a few balls once.
Q: Now you're learning the game?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly. You have to answer audibly.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Yes or no. Chris.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And you're practicing and playing with Mr. Simpson?
A: No, I'm not practicing and playing with Mr. Simpson. I hit golf balls once in his court - in his yard.
Q: On camera. Right?
A: I didn't know who was out there.
Q: There were cameras out there. Right?
A: I presume so because I saw myself on television.
Q: So did I. Tell me about your conversation with Mr. Leonard about this deposition last Wednesday.
A: He basically just said that he will be here this morning and that I'll see him at 9:30 in the morning.
Q: Anything more than that?
A: No.
Q: Did he say -
A: The only thing he said, that he might ask me some questions whenever you're done.
Q: He might?
A: Yeah.
Q: Depending how things go?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that what he said?
A: No.
MR. PETROCELLI: What's the objection, Mr. Leonard?
MR. LEONARD: You're leading.
MR. PETROCELLI: Absolutely.
MR. LEONARD: Well, that's my objection.
MR.PETROCELLI: Is there a law against leading an adverse witness?
MR. LEONARD: Well, I don't know that it's been established he is an adverse witness. Where has a judge ruled that?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: How. many times have you been to Fred Goldman's house?
A: Never.
Q: Are you a friend of his?
A: No. Don't know the man.
Q: Mr. Leonard said he would examine you depending how things went. Right?
A: He would ask me some questions -
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: - perhaps at the end of the day.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And did he tell you what he would ask you?
A: No.
Q: What else did he say to you?
A: That's about it.
Q: Did he mention anything that you might be asked?
A: No.
Q: Did he discuss anything that might come up here?
A: No.
Q: This is the Wednesday conversation. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And did he talk to you at all about Faye Resnick?
A: No.
Q: Did the name Faye Resnick come up in the conversation?
A: No.
Q: Did he talk to you about drugs?
A: No.
Q: Now, do you know whether Mr. Leonard has spoken to your attorney?
A: I don't know. I don't think so.
Q: Do you know whether any of O.J. Simpson's lawyers have spoken to your attorney about this deposition?
A: About this particular deposition?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't think so.
Q: Do you know whether your lawyer has ever met with any of Mr. Simpson's lawyers?
A: Concerning this deposition?
Q: Concerning anything.
A: Not other than with me.
Q: So you have had meetings with your lawyer present and Mr. Simpson's lawyers?
A: Dominick was present the evening that I had dinner with Mr. Cochran.
Q: With Johnnie Cochran. Was that the only occasion?
A: Also at the meeting at Mr. Cochran's office.
Q: Any other occasions?
A: That's it.
MR. RUBALCAVA: In court.
THE WITNESS: And in court.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And do you know whether Mr. Rubalcava has spoken with any of the civil defense lawyers?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Now, you said you had met Mr. Leonard on a previous occasion at Mr. Simpson's house. I take it that since Mr. Simpson's release from jail, you spend time at his house. Right?
A: Uh-huh, that's correct.
Q: Do you have a key?
A: No.
Q: And when you met Mr. Leonard the first time, when was that?
A: That was probably about two months ago.
Q: And was there any discussion at all about this lawsuit?
A: No
Q: Just a social event?
A: Just a social event, yeah.
Q: Who else was present?
A: The housekeeper, Gigi. I think at that time - one time Mr. Blasier was there. That's all I can recall.
Q: Was that around the time of the filming of Mr. Simpson's video?
A: No. It was after.
Q: It was after that? Gigi and Mr. Blasier and Mr. Leonard?
A: (Nods head.)
Q: Yourself and O.J. Simpson?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You are nodding yes, but you have to answer yes.
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Anyone else?
A: Gigi's baby.
Q: Anyone else?
A: No, that's all I can recall.
Q: Was Cathy Randa there?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever met Cathy Randa?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: A number of occasions?
A: Uh-huh, yes.
Q: And prior to Nicole's death how many times had you met Cathy Randa?
A: Several occasions.
Q: Two or three?
A: Yeah, two or three, four. When O.J. and I were talking about making the video for Playboy, we would go to O.J.'s office and obviously see Cathy there.
Q: And since Mr. Simpson's release from jail, you've seen Cathy Randa?
A: Yeah.
Q: A number of times?
A: Number of times.
Q: Much more frequently, correct, than before?
A: Than before, yeah.
Q: Now, when you spoke to - So you last saw O.J. Simpson when?
A: Wednesday.
Q: When you -
A: Yeah, Wednesday afternoon.
Q: This Wednesday, right, two days ago?
A: Yes.
Q: You were at his house?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer yes.
A: Yes.
Q: And that's when he handed you the phone, and he was talking to Dan Leonard when you walked in. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And it was Mr. Simpson's idea that you speak to Mr. Leonard?
A: No. Actually Mr. Simpson said, "Christian just walked in," and I guess Mr. Leonard said, "Let me just talk to him for a second."
Q: Is that what -
A: I guess that's the gist from -
Q: Who was present at Mr. Simpson's home on Wednesday?
A: Gretchen.
Q: And who is Gretchen?
A: Gretchen is a friend of O.J.'s.
Q: Is that Gretchen Stockdale?
A: I don't know her last name.
Q: Is that the woman that O.J. Simpson called on the telephone on June 12th?
A: I don't know. I don't know whether he- whether that is the person.
Q: Is it his girlfriend?
A: She's a friend of his.
Q: Is she single?
A: I don't know. I really don't know.
Q: Does she spend the evenings there?
A: I don't know.
Q: Is this the first time you've met Gretchen?
A: No. I've met Gretchen before.
Q: Did you meet her before Nicole's death?
A: No, I never have.
Q: And when did you first hear of Gretchen?
A: Probably about two months before the murder - two months before the verdict. Sorry.
Q: Sure?
A: Yeah.
Q: And how did you hear of Gretchen two months before the verdict while Mr. Simpson was in jail?
A: I just heard her name mentioned.
Q: From whom?
A: People while I was at - visiting Mr. Simpson at the jail one time I heard the name mentioned.
Q: In what connection?
A: I don't recall.
Q: What do you understand the relationship between Gretchen and Mr. Simpson to be?
A: Friendship.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Foundation.
THE WITNESS: Friendship.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And how long do you believe they have been friends?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I really don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: How many times have you seen Gretchen other than Wednesday?
A: Probably four or five times.
Q: In social settings?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer yes.
A: Yes.
Q: You have gone out with Mr. Simpson and Gretchen?
A: I've gone over to Mr. Simpson's house and Gretchen was there sometimes.
Q: Are you currently married?
A: No.
Q: Are you engaged?
A: No.
Q: And do you have a girlfriend?
A: No.
Q: Have you brought any dates over to Mr. Simpson's house -
A: Yes, I have.
Q: - since he's been out of jail?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: Who are they?
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: [Name Deleted]?
A: Yes.
Q: [Name Deleted]?
A: Yeah.
Q: Anyone else?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever bring any friends of yours to visit Mr. Simpson in jail?
A: No.
Q: Is [Name Deleted] the only person you have brought to see Mr. Simpson after he got out of jail?
A: That's correct.
Q: And have you and [Name Deleted] and Gretchen Stockdale and O.J. Simpson spent time together?
A: Yes. we have.
Q: At his house?
A: At his house and other friend's house.
Q: Who?
A: [Names Deleted]. I don't even know their last names.
Q: In Santa Barbara?
A: Yeah.
Q: [Name Deleted]?
A: I don't know their last name. They're actually friends of [Name Deleted] as well from years back.
Q: [Names Deleted] in Santa Barbara?
A: Right.
Q: And you've gone to their home?
A: In Santa Barbara once and once in their home here in Los Angeles.
Q: They have a home here in L.A.?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Where is that home?
A: In Beverly Hills. I don't know the address.
Q: [Name Deleted]. Does that ring a bell?
A: I really don't know their last name.
Q: What does [Name Deleted] do for a living?
A: Business.
Q: What kind of business is he engaged in?
A: I don't know.
Q: You know nothing about him?
A: I know very little about them other than they're nice people.
Q: Did you know [Names Deleted] before OJ. Simpson's arrest?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: First you've heard of them is when?
A: Actually when I starred dating [Name Deleted], because [Name Deleted] and O.J. were talking one day and they realized that they know some of the same people.
Q: Did [Name Deleted] know Mr. Simpson before you met [Name Deleted]?
A: Yes.
Q: How long has [Name Deleted] known O.J. Simpson?
A: I think they first met probably like 10 years ago.
Q: And did they continue to stay in touch with each other?
A: No, they didn't.
Q: When was the last time before Nicole's death that you know [Name Deleted] and O.J. Simpson were in contact?
A: Probably eight, nine years ago. Prior to that, yeah.
Q: Did [Name Deleted] know Nicole?
A: I think she had met Nicole once.
Q: Was [Name Deleted] a former girlfriend of O.J. Simpson's?
A: No.
Q: Or lover of his?
A: No.
Q: Sure of that?
A: Absolutely.
Q: She told you?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did he tell you?
A: She was married to a friend of his.
Q: Who? Who was [Name Deleted] married to?
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: [Name Deleted]?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: No longer?
A: No longer.
Q: Now, going back to Wednesday when you came to Mr. Simpson's
house, what was your purpose in doing so?
A: Visit.
Q: Social?
A: Just social.
Q: And who was present at the home?
A: O.J., Gretchen, Gigi the housekeeper. That's it.
Q: You and [Name Deleted]?
A: No. By myself.
Q: And how long were you there?
A: Probably about 45 minutes.
Q: Was there any conversation at all about your deposition today?
A: No. It was just "Good luck on Friday" as I walked out the door.
Q: He knew you were taking a deposition?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you talk about it at all other than his saying "Good luck" to you?
A: No.
Q: Did he talk to you at all about Cora Fischman's deposition?
A: No.
Q: Did he say a word to you about it?
A: He said that Cora's depo was today - was that day -
Q: And he had been there. He told you -
A: I don't know.
Q: - that he had been there. Right?
A: No, he didn't. I don't know.
Q: He didn't say a word to you about it?
A: No. He just said that "Cora had a deposition today" as I walked out the door, and he said, "Good luck on Friday."
Q: When he said "Cora," you understood that to be Cora Fischman. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Have you had any conversations with Mr. Simpson at all about your deposition?
A: No.
Q: About -
A: Other than saying that Friday's, you know, we're here.
Q: What about this case, this civil lawsuit? Have you talked to him at all about this civil lawsuit?
A: Talked about as implications as to how he feels as a person about it, how I feel as a person about it, but no -
Q: And how do you feel as a person about it?
A: About this civil case?
Q: Yes.
A: I think everybody has their right to pose their questions.
Q: What does that mean?
A: Exactly that: Everybody has a right to pose their questions.
Q: You mean the victims' families have the right to pose questions? Is that what you mean by that?
A: And Mr. Simpson's attorneys have the right to pose the questions. Everybody's just trying to do their job.
Q: Do you think that this is an unfair rap against Mr. Simpson, this case?
A: That's a tough question. I think there is in my mind lots of questions about this case as to the validity of it.
Q: What are those questions, Mr. Reichardt?
A: Exactly what are the validity of it? Did everything go right in this case? Why did things get handled the way that they did?
Q: What do you mean by that? Could you explain yourself a bit?
A: Yeah, I can.
Q: Please do so.
A: From - from the beginning of this whole case, it was really a question in my mind as to what happened. This case has really shaken my belief in society and the justice system, okay, because I see that a lot of people have gone forward and proclaimed things
that happened in a way that they didn't happen, and, you know. over the last year and a half it's been a very trying time for me to figure out why people are the way they are.
Q: When you talk about this case, you're referring to the civil case or the criminal case or both?
A: I think they are in my mind closely interrelated.
Q: Who are the - Well, is the gist of what you're saying that people are proclaiming things that didn't happen, against Mr. Simpson?
A: Yeah. Not just against Mr. Simpson.
Q: But mainly against him. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you think that's unfair. True?
A: I don't know whether it's unfair.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Just one second, if I might.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
MR. RUBALCAVA: Is this a good time to take a quick little break?
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay good.
(Recess.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Reichardt, we were talking about your feelings about this case and how you think that aspects of it are unjust, and you were telling me that people are proclaiming things that did not happen, largely against the interests of O.J. Simpson. Is there anything else that you can tell us about your feelings concerning this case?
A: Sure. Part of the reason why I have these feelings is because I see how people have profited from this particular case and profited by twisting the information in particular ways. It's very difficult for me to understand why people do that.
Q: You haven't profited?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any other feelings that you'd like to express about the case?
MR.LEONARD: Objection to the vague nature of the question.
THE WITNESS: That's about it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Can you tell us a little bit more about why you think O.J. Simpson is being unjustly accused of murdering Nicole and Ron Goldman?
A: Yeah. Like I said, I see that people have taken the opportunity to change things around in their own personal interest and -
Q: Who are these people?
A: A whole little group of supposed friends.
Q: Can you name them?
A: Sure.
Q: Please do.
A: Kris Jenner, Bruce Jenner, Candice Garvey, Faye Resnick.
Q: Anyone else?
A: Those are the people that I was -
Q: Referring to?
A: Well, I was close enough with to know.
Q: How much money has Candice Garvey made in exploiting the murders of Ron and Nicole?
A: The exploiting it has nothing necessarily to do with monetary compensation.
Q: How has Candice Garvey profited other than money?
A: I think it served her purpose in dealing with her husband and her friendships with the Jenners.
Q: But you don't have any information that Candice Garvey received any money,
do you?
A: No.
Q: What about Bruce Jenner? Do you have any information that he received any money as a result of these murders?
A: Well, the information is that, you know, they had a full-time publicist working that was feeding information to media, you know. And in the weeks after the murder, if Kris Jenner and I had a conversation, all of a sudden a few days later I would read about those
conversations in the magazines, and to me the only way that it could have been brought forward to certain parts of the media is through her.
You know, so I have no dollar amounts; I have seen no canceled checks or something like that, but to me it's rather obvious.
Q: Do you have any information at all that Chris or Bruce Jenner received money?
A: No. Like I say, I have no proof, but -
Q: Well, I am not asking for proof in the sense that it would be admissible in court. I am asking for any information. Maybe somebody told you, "Hey, Kris got a hundred grand for talking to so-and-so," anything like that. Do you have any information like that?
A: The information that I have is, you know, I know how many people have - from the media have stepped towards me and offered me money for information, so to me it's sensible to assume that it happened for them also.
Q: But you don't know for a fact.
A: No.
Q: And no one has ever told you that they have gotten money.
A: No.
Q: Referring to Kris or Bruce.
A: No.
Q: Or Candice Garvey, for that matter.
A: No.
Q: And Faye Resnick, how has she made money?
A: You tell me. She wrote a book. She's done television shows. She's done newspaper interviews.
Q: What is your understanding, Mr. Reichardt, concerning which of these various activities she received money for?
A: What is my understanding?
Q: Yeah.
A: Like I said. I've had the same sources approach me with offers and dollar amounts, and, you know, so it's sensible to assume that she'd get the same offers.
Q: Again. you have no information that she received any money from any of the media outlets. Correct?
A: No.
Q: Or that she even asked for any.
A: Right.
Q: And you turned down all those media people. Right?
A: Yes. I did.
Q: Of course, the Jenners could have also turned them down.
A: Well, it's like I said, certain pieces of information, conversations -
Q: They could have turned down the money is what I meant to say.
A: Yes, they could have.
Q: As Candice Garvey could also have.
A: Yes.
Q: And so could Faye Resnick. Right?
A: Absolutely.
Q: So you're just speculating. Right?
A: I'm only speculating.
Q: Okay. Now, do you know how much Faye Resnick has received in connection with her two books?
A: I have no idea.
Q: And are you aware of any other persons who you believe have proclaimed things that did not happen in connection with the deaths of Ron and Nicole?
A: I think that a lot of people have done that, you know. I know that Robin Greer has. I know Robin Greer approached Faye Resnick in the weeks after the murder when Faye was saying she didn't want to talk to anybody about it, and Robin Greer approached Faye to say, "Hey, if you don't want to say, give me the information. I will."
Q: Meaning that if Faye was not willing to talk about what had happened, then Robin would?
A: Right.
Q: But you don't know of any information that the two of them were going to fabricate events or facts, do you?
A: Well, they were going to fabricate that Robin was present in certain conversations with .Nicole that she wasn't.
Q: Who told you that?
A: Faye did.
Q: Faye told you that she had a conversation with Robin Greer in which Robin told her that she would falsely claim to be present at conversations with Nicole?
A: That's correct.
Q: When did Faye tell you this?
A: Probably three weeks, four weeks after the murder.
Q: And Faye told her no, she wouldn't participate in that. True?
A: That's correct.
Q: True?
A: That's correct. Because she didn't want Robin to give - to have the information and not Faye, and I said, "Hey, you know, that's between you guys. Leave me out of it."
Q: And because it would be false.
A: That's for Faye to decide.
Q: What I am saying to you is that Faye refused to participate in the alleged scheme by Robin Greer to falsify evidence. True?
A: Yes.
Q: Thank you.
A: But she said that she would not do it because she wouldn't want Robin to go to the media and profit from it, but Faye would want to do that.
MR. PETROCELLI: I move to strike the rest of that answer as nonresponsive.
Q: Mr. Leonard will give you ample opportunity to lay out O.J. Simpson's ideas and theories.
MR. LEONARD: And I move to strike that comment. That's totally unnecessary, Mr. Petrocelli.
MR. PETROCELLI: You're right. It's self-evident. I didn't t have to say it.
Q: Are you aware of any other conversations between Faye Resnick and anyone else in which there was talk about fabricating evidence, other than this one incident concerning Robin Greer?
A: No
Q: And are you aware of any other conversations among any other persons to fabricate evidence or trump up facts or otherwise falsify information?
MR. LEONARD: Object to the compound nature of the question.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, if you could rephrase the question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, I am trying to make the question as humanly broad as possible. In other words, I want to pick up every possible instance of information that you have in which people were talking about fabricating evidence, lying, making up facts that didn't happen, putting themselves in conversations when they were not, anything like that, falsifying information.
You've mentioned one alleged incident between Robin Greer and Faye Resnick, and now I am asking you for anything else.
A: Faye's book.
Q: You mean your reading of Faye's book. No one told you about any conversations -
A: Right.
Q: - where people said, "Hey, you know, let's say that we were there when we're not"-
A: That's true.
Q: -or, "let's falsify information to get O.J." or anything like that. Right?
A: I tried to keep myself away from pretty much everybody in the weeks after the murder, the months after the murder, so -
Q: And by "Faye's book," what you are now saying is that you think there is false information in Faye's book. True?
A: Absolutely.
Q: And you've read Faye's book. Right?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: And you've talked about it with O.J. Simpson. Right?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: And you have talked about the false information in the book with O.J. Simpson. Right?
A: And other people.
Q: But with O.J. Simpson. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And O.J. Simpson you know agrees with you. True?
A: Yeah.
Q: Put aside Faye Resnick's book - Which book are you referring to, by the way? The first book?
A: Both.
Q: Both of them. Put aside those two books. Are you aware of any other information where people told you or it came to your attention that anybody was going to falsify information in connection with the deaths of Ron or Nicole?
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
MR. PETROCELLI: Let the record reflect the witness is conferring with his lawyer.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: By the way, have you read anything concerning this lawsuit to prepare for the deposition?
A: No.
Q: You said you read Faye Resnick's -
A: I read Faye's book.
Q: - first book, "Private Diary"? Excuse me. Have you?
A: Yes.
Q: And you read "Shattered," her second book. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever read any of the depositions taken in this case?
A: Only mine.
MR. RUBALCAVA: That's what I was going to say.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: By your "deposition," you are referring to your trial testimony?
A: No. To my interview - the paper of my interview with Mr. Darden that was taken in November '94.
Q: Okay, we will get to that. Anything else?
A: No.
Q: Did anybody talk to you about Faye Resnick's deposition and what she's testified to in that deposition?
A: I've heard things in the media, on the news, and that's about it.
Q: And you've read Mr. Simpson's deposition?
A: No.
Q: Have you read any documents or reviewed any papers to prepare for this deposition?
A: No.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Just your deposition.
THE WITNESS: Just my -
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Your statement, we'll call it.
A: Right.
Q: Your statement to Chris Darden.
A: Yes.
Q: When did you read that statement?
A: Last night.
Q: Last night. Let me go back and pick something up that you mentioned before. Who was at the dinner with Johnnie Cochran, yourself and Mr. Rubalcava?
A: That was it.
Q: The three of you?
A: Yeah.
Q: And that was before you testified?
A: Yeah.
Q: And that was to talk about your testimony?
A: No. It was even before my interview with Mr. Darden. It was basically, once I knew that I'm going to be involved in this case - like I said, I stayed away from a lot of people and that whole group of people for a while, but once I realized that I'll be involved in it I contacted Dominick, who is besides my attorney a personal friend of mine, and we just figured out that it might be a good idea to just sit down with Mr. Cochran because Mr. Cochran and Dominick had been friends for years.
Q: And when did that occur?
A: September, beginning of September of '94, something like that.
Q: And prior to the time when you sat down with Mr. Rubalcava and Johnnie Cochran, had you spoken at length to anyone about your knowledge concerning the deaths of Ron and Nicole?
A: Yeah.
Q: Who?
A: Kris Jenner.
Q: Anyone else?
A: Candice Garvey.
Q: Anyone else?
A: That was it.
Q: Any lawyer?
A: No.
Q: Any representative of Mr. Simpson's?
A: No.
Q: Any friend of Mr. Simpson's?
A: No.
Q: Any member of his family?
A: No.
Q: Any investigator?
A: Only that one time with Mr. Pavelick.
Q: Did the Pavelick coffee talk occur before or after the Cochran dinner?
A: I think the - I believe it was before.
Q: And where did that occur?
A: At the Starbucks on 7th and Montana.
Q: And who was present?
A: Just Mr. Pavelick and I.
Q: And what was discussed?
A: Mr. Pavelick asked me questions about what I knew about Faye, what I knew about Nicole, what I knew about what Nicole and Faye were up to in the last three months before Nicole's death.
Q: What was the date of that meeting?
A: I don't recall. I really don't recall.
Q: Was it within a month of Nicole's death?
A: I think it was later than that. I think it was after my motorcycle trip to South Dakota, which is always in the first week of August. I believe it was after that.
MR. RUBALCAVA: It would have been after August 5th.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, probably after August 15th.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Had you spoken to Mr. Rubalcava by that time concerning this case?
A: Briefly. And like I said, I pretty much stayed away from the whole thing, even talking to friends about it.
Q: Have you given anybody any documents, photographs, materials, pieces of paper, anything at all regarding Nicole Brown Simpson or O.J. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Including your lawyer.
A: Including my lawyer.
Q: The answer is no?
A: No.
Q: Now, Mr. Pavelick was asking you about what Nicole and Faye were up to. Correct?
A: Right.
Q: And he was trying to - Withdrawn. He asked you whether you knew of the people that they were associating with. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you told him. Right?
A: I told him what I knew, yeah.
Q: What did you tell him?
A: I told him that I knew very little of who they were associating with because at that time Faye and I had very much disengaged from our relationship, you know, and to me it was a matter of when opportunities were such where Faye would be high at the house that I would ask her to leave.
So from that point on when she left, I don't follow her; I don't know who or where, what she hang out with. I just knew that very often she spent time at Nicole's house.
Q: So you were unable to give Mr. Pavelick the names of anybody.
A: Yeah.
Q: True?
A: Right.
Q: He asked you who Faye might be acquiring drugs from?
A: Right.
Q: And you didn't know. Right?
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay. Do you remember anything else that he asked you?
A: I think the gist of the conversation was primarily that. He asked me when I talked to O.J. last. He had asked me what the conversation was about. I had told him that - before the murder, and I told him that I had talked to O.J. last about an hour before the murder over the phone, and that was it.
Q: How did you know when the murders occurred?
A: Well, I just know about from what was said in the media and the court case and what the accusation is when the murders supposedly occurred.
Q: When did you last speak to O.J. on the night of the murder?
A: About 9:00 o'clock that night.
Q: Who was the first person to ever ask you when you spoke to O.J. Simpson on the evening of June 12th?
A: The first person who ever asked me were the two detectives that came to my office and I had an interview with them.
Q: Have you ever asked for the phone record of your conversation with O.J. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: And are you aware of any evidence that exists that corroborates the time of 9:00 o'clock?
A: I'm sure that if the phone records would be asked for Mr. Simpson's phone number, it would be on there.
Q: He called you?
A: Yeah.
Q: And do you know - are you absolutely positive it was exactly at 9:00 p.m.?
A: Right about that time.
Q: What's the earliest it could have been?
A: Within minutes.
Q: Based on your recollection?
A: A minute or two minutes around 9:00 o'clock, because I remember that I looked at the
clock when he called.
Q: You remember that you picked up the phone and you looked at a clock.
A: Right.
Q: And you remember that that clock said what?
A: 9:00 o'clock.
Q: Was it a numerical/digital clock?
A: No. Like a dial.
Q: A dial -
MR. RUBALCAVA: Analog.
MR. PETROCELLI: What did you say?
MR. RUBALCAVA: Analog.
MR. PETROCELLI: Analog. That's the word now.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Excuse me. I didn't mean to interrupt, Counsel.
MR. PETROCELLI: That's all right.
Q: It was an analog clock.
A: I was watching a movie, and I looked over and it was 9:00 o'clock.
Q: Now, why did you look at the clock?
A: I always do.
Q: You always do what?
A: When the phone call comes in.
Q: And do you always jot it down, too?
A: No, but I make a mental note.
Q: Did you keep that piece of information fixed in your mind?
A: Very much.
Q: Why?
A: Because the next morning - I didn't keep that fixed in my mind in that moment, but the next day when I found out that, you know, Nicole was dead and then later in the day it was said that the police is looking for O.J., I in my mind went, my God, I just talked to him last night, you know. It's like, what time was that.
Q: Did you and OJ. in that conversation talk about the time?
A: No.
Q: What movie were you watching?
A: It was some - some war movie. I don't remember the name of it.
Q: What station was it on?
A: I don't remember the station.
Q: Was it a video rental, or was it -
A: No. It was -
Q: - a public - a free TV movie?
A: Cable.
Q: Excuse me?
A: It was on cable. I don't know which station on cable, though.
Q: Did you continue to watch the movie?
A: Yeah. Because I remember that by that time - by like 10:00 o'clock I went to bed.
Q: Was the movie over?
A: Yeah. Had just finished -
Q: At 10:00 o'clock p.m. on June 12?
A: Right.
Q: You were living alone?
A: Right.
Q: At the Montana residence?
A: That's correct.
Q: No one else was home?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Pavelick tell you about any suspects that he had information regarding?
A: No. I think at that time it was just - he was just trying to figure out what I knew.
Q: Did you ask him?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: It's not my place.
Q: Didn't you want to know whether your good friend O.J. Simpson killed two people?
A: Yeah, but, you know, like I said. I disengaged very much from this whole story right after the murders.
Q: It's fair to say that you did not want to believe that O.J. did it. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And you still feel that way. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And I take it that you believe he is innocent of these charges. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you believe he did not do it. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And in fact you're 100 percent sure of that. True?
A: Can never be a hundred percent sure, but 99 percent, yeah.
Q: Tell us why you're so sure, 99 percent sure, that O.J. Simpson is innocent and did not kill Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown.
A: There's a whole bunch of reasons: Number one, I know his physical condition, you know. If you would put O.J. on a chair and ask him to jump down, he wouldn't be able to do it, you know. Like I said, I've seen so much -
Q: Hold on. Let's take these one at a time. OJ. Simpson's physical condition. You are aware of his physical condition in June of 1994?
A: Yeah.
Q: How were you aware of it?
A: You see him walking downstairs -
Q: Just by walking?
A: He came in for treatment sometimes.
Q: How many times had you treated him before Nicole's death?
A: Probably four or five times.
Q: What did you treat him for?
A: For his knees primarily. Show him exercises, stretch him out.
Q: Where did you treat him?
A: Sometimes at the office. Sometimes at his house.
Q: Your office?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Sometimes where?
A: At his home.
Q: And when was the last time you treated him?
A: Since the murders?
Q: No. Before June 12. I'm sorry.
A: Probably a month prior to that.
Q: Where?
A: At the office in Santa Monica, I believe.
Q: Did he make an appointment?
A: Yeah. He came in as a - you know, before me starting to see patients, just pop in.
Q: Do you have a calendar or appointment book in your office that would reflect that visit?
A: No, because he would just come in and - say, "Can I come in?" And I say, "Yeah, come in before the patients start, and we'll just" -
Q: Do you make any notes of your treatments?
A: No.
Q: Is there any piece of paper or information or record in your office or anyplace else that would indicate when he last was treated at your office -
A: No.
Q: - before June 12?
A: No.
Q: Now, you told me you had an appointment book that you were going to show me.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Is there anything in there about this treatment?
A: No.
Q: Can I see that?
A: Sure.
Q: We'll have to take copies of it. For the record, Mr. Reichardt has handed me an appointment book called a "Pocket/day-timer" for 1994. True?
A: That's correct.
Q: Black with your handwritten notations in it as to various appointments?
A: Right.
Q: What was the purpose of this book? How did you use it, in other words?
A: That's my calendar, my day-timer, to keep track of appointments that I have had.
Q: Of business appointments?
A: Business appointments, personal appointments.
Q: Anything else?
A: No.
Q: Have you gone back over this and made any corrections to it?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever shown it to anyone - any lawyer or investigator or other person involved in the Simpson saga?
A: No. I just showed it this morning to Dominick and say, "I brought this."
MR.RUBALCAVA: In response to your subpoena. Mention that.
THE WITNESS: As part of the request of the subpoena.
BY MR.PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, I notice that there are some Post-its. Were these Post-its put in after the fact?
A: No.
Q: Have you reviewed this to see if there are any entries in it relating to O.J. Simpson?
A: Yes, I've reviewed it as to what the date was of our meeting at Playboy.
Q: Why?
A: Because for my own knowledge, I wanted to know when that was.
Q: Has anyone discussed that with you?
A: Discussed?
Q: Your meeting with OJ. Simpson at Playboy or for the Playboy video.
A: Yeah, I think it came up in the conversation with Mr. Darden.
Q: Since that time has it ever come up again in any conversations with Dan Leonard, with other Simpson lawyers or with Simpson himself?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if the Pavelick appointment is in here?
A: No. That would be later. This is the first six months of the year.
Q: Yeah. Where is the rest of this year? I notice this only goes through the end of June -
A: I have that at home.
Q: - of 1994. You have that at home?
A: Yes.
Q: I would like to see that as well. In fact, I would like to see them all the way through to the present.
A: Great.
Q: I am going to have to at a break -
A: Copy.
Q: - review this and take copies. I don't want to spend more time on it now. You guys want to look?
Okay. So you were telling me about O.J. Simpson's physical condition. and could you generally describe -
MR. RUBALCAVA: Can we ask a question? What is the protocol for the handling of Mr. Reichardt's property in terms of privacy? I have no problem with anything that happens that the lawyers need to work on or their staff or they have to deal with, but there may be information or matters there that are personal and/or private, and is there a protective mechanism that can be used -
MR. PETROCELLI: No. Well, there isn't any protective order in place. All requests have been denied except for Mr. Simpson's financial information.
MR. RUBALCAVA: So this will become public record, accessible? Or to what extent?
MR. PETROCELLI: What we can do if you would like is not include this as an exhibit to the deposition transcript. What I will do, if you like, is just include the front -
MR. RUBALCAVA: If there are relevant entries -
MR. PETROCELLI: No. What I would like is production of the whole thing, but what I would do is just include in the deposition transcript as an exhibit just the cover page of the -
MR. RUBALCAVA: I appreciate that.
MR. PETROCELLI: - of the day-planner.
MR. RUBALCAVA: I'd appreciate it. Thank you. You can use it in any way that the attorneys need to use it; I don't have any problem with that, but just as a courtesy, and I do appreciate that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
Q: Anyway, you were telling me about O.J. Simpson's physical condition as the first reason why you believe he's 99 percent innocent. By the way, there is a 1 percent doubt in your mind. Correct?
A: I think there's a I percent doubt in anybody's mind.
Q: About OJ. Simpson?
A: About anything.
Q: So nothing can be a hundred percent.
A: Exactly.
Q: But you re about as sure - you're as sure that O.J. Simpson is innocent as you are sure of any other fact.
A: That's right.
Q: Okay. And I take it your point about his physical condition is that he was not - he was so physically disabled that he was - that it was impossible for him to have killed anyone. Is that true?
A: Yeah. In those - in that particular fashion as those murders occurred, yeah, I think it was - he is physically not capable of doing it.
Q: Would you say that he's crippled?
A: Close.
Q: Close to crippled?
A: He's got some major disabilities.
Q: Have you consulted with any physician of O.J. Simpson's concerning his physical condition?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever been asked to?
A: No.
Q: Have you discussed with Mr. Simpson what treatment he is undergoing for his near-crippled condition?
A: At that time prior to the murders?
Q: Yes, prior to the murders. What is that?
A: Yeah, we had talked about changing his diet and start an exercise program and stretching program would be the appropriate way to give him some more flexibility in his
lower extremities.
Q: Changing diet and stretching program.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: And when did you recommend that those things begin?
A: Starting in the fall of '93.
Q: Is that when you started to treat him?
A: Yeah.
Q: And that treatment went through the murders on June 12, and you say during that time you may have treated him three or four times?
A: That's correct.
Q: Do you know whether he did in fact change his diet at your recommendation?
A: Yeah. he started to, and he started taking a supplement.
Q: What kind of supplement?
A: Called Juice Plus.
Q: Was that your idea, that he go on Juice Plus?
A: No, but it was my idea that he start a nutritional supplement program, and then he found the company Juice Plus. I reviewed it and said, "Yes, that looks good to me."
Q: Did that involve taking vitamins?
A: Right.
Q: Did it also involve what food he would eat?
A: Yeah.
Q: What kind of food did you recommend that he eat to improve his condition?
A: Basically recommended for him to stay away from red meat, eat more raw veggies and fruit.
Q: Do you know whether he tried to comply with that?
A: At least when I was around.
Q: Okay. By "red meat," that would also include McDonald's hamburgers, I take it. True?
A: Yeah.
Q: Stretching program. Do you know whether he began to do the stretches that you suggested?
A: I didn't see him make very much progress with his legs, so I assume that he didn't do the stretches. And I asked him and he said, "Well, you know how it goes. You're traveling a lot." And so whenever-you know, over the three or four times that we would get together, I would stretch him out, I would show him more stretches to do, but I don't really believe that he really followed up on doing that.
Q: Is that what he told you?
A: No. I said what I would find when I would treat him again, that it hasn't really changed much.
Q: The last time you treated him, though, was a month or two before -
A: Right.
Q: - June 12. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So you don't know what he did by way of stretching for the whole month of May.
A: That's correct.
Q: And the first two weeks of June.
A: That's correct.
Q: Did you advise - give Mr. Simpson any advice about whether he should play golf?
A: Golf didn't seem to bother him, didn't seem to aggravate it.
Q: So the answer is no?
A: No.
Q: Did you advise Mr. Simpson that he shouldn't participate in any strenuous exercise?
A: No. I think it's pretty much self-explanatory to him that if you do anything that was too much, that he would hurt the next day.
Q: So it wasn't that it was impossible to do strenuous things; it was that it would hurt if he did so. True?
A: Yeah. And, you know, certain activities I would assume would be impossible for him to do. Like seeing him walking down stairs, you see somebody walking down the stairs hardly able to do it and having to support his body, you know, it's like I said, I would assume in putting him on a chair and having him jump down, he couldn't do it.
Q: Now, what aspects of the murders of Ron and Nicole do you think it would have been physically impossible, based on your judgment, for Mr. Simpson to perform?
A: Well, as I understand, there must have been a fight, two people on a relatively close, small area. If you know a little bit about martial arts, that's quite a task, you know.
Q: What is quite a task?
A: To combat two opponents in a small space. If you know something about martial arts, you know, there must be twisting, turning, you know. So I don't think that he would be able to do that.
Q: Is it you believe that Nicole Brown Simpson was an opponent like a martial arts opponent? Is that what you're suggesting?
A: No. I'm suggesting, from what I understand of how the murders occurred, that there was a struggle, and as in any kind of struggle in a small space involving three people, it takes a lot of physical movement. I talked to a friend of mine who was a martial artist, and he said, "Yeah, it would be very difficult to move in a small space like that against two people."
Q: Did you ever discuss this with Dr. Robert Huizenga?
A: No.
Q: Are you aware of his trial testimony on this issue?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever discussed this point - did you discuss this point with Pavelick?
A: No.
Q: And did you discuss it with Johnnie Cochran at the dinner?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever discussed this point with O.J. Simpson?
A: I think we talked about it, yeah.
Q: When did you talk about it?
A: Probably about two months ago, three months ago.
Q: Relate that conversation.
A: Excuse me?
Q: Relate that conversation. Tell me who was present, where it was and what was said.
A: I think it was one evening late at night when I was with O.J. just by himself, and I was relating him - I was just relating my thought processes on this whole case, and in that process I mentioned that, you know, his legs and his knees to me would be prohibitive of movement like that.
Q: What did he say?
A: He said, "That's interesting."
Q: Did he agree with you?
A: Yeah, he agreed.
Q: He agreed that it would have been physically impossible for him to commit these murders?
MR. LEONARD: Object to the form. It's leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You may answer. By the way, you shouldn't be influenced one iota by anything -
A: I understand.
Q: - the lawyers say in terms of their objections. That's just legal stuff that the court can deal with later. Exempt, of course, for your lawyer.
A: Can you rephrase the question or repeat the question?
MR. PETROCELLI: Why don't you have it repeated.
(Pending question read as follows:
Q: He agreed that it would have been physically impossible for him to commit these murders?")
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And that's what he told you. True?
A: Yeah. Yes.
Q: And did he tell you why it would have been physically impossible, what aspect of his body would have been physically unable to perform the required movements?
A: I laid that out for him.
Q: As you have laid it out to me?
A: Right.
Q: And he agreed?
A: Yeah.
Q: And he said, "Christian. you're right." True?
A: Yeah.
(Discussion held off the record.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Let's go back to your points of innocence. What's the next point? The first point was his physical condition.
A: The next point was that I saw how, like I say, information was misconstrued, manipulated. Another point is a jury verdict. You know, the jury put out a verdict of his innocence.
Q: But you were convinced of these things before the jury verdict.
A: The jury verdict absolutely reconfirmed what I was thinking before.
Q: Tell me about the second point, concerning the information that was manipulated and misconstrued, and be as specific as you can.
A: In the weeks after the murder it was put forward how supposedly Mr. Simpson was pursuing Nicole, and I know for a fact that it not to be true. O.J. and I at the time starting approximately - well, not approximately. I could tell you exact time was after the trip to Cabo San Lucas on Easter, we had many conversations that the relationships we were in were not healthy and that we needed to get out of these relationships.
And I know for a fact that there were many times where Nicole or Faye were pursuing their respective partners, and O.J. and I would talk later throughout the day and compare notes in the sense of how both Nicole and Faye were trying to do the same thing at the separate households.
There were times I would call O.J. up and say, "Oh, my God, I can't believe it. Faye came back and today says that in order for her to feel safe, she wants me to buy her a new car, you know."
And O.J. would laugh and say something like, "This is what happened today: Nicole came back and said very much the same thing."
Not that she wanted a new car, but that she needed to have some token of his affection to feel safe. And I know for a fact that, you know, both O.J. and I were contemplating and talking about needing to getting out of our respective relationships.
Q: Contemplating what?
A: How to get out of our relationships, which I think O.J. was more successful than I in the moment when he connected back with Paula Barbieri and he started to go on with his life. He started to go on and live his life again with the knowledge that he doesn't want to work it out with Nicole.
I remember a specific conversation. I don't recall the date, but it was in the - probably a week and a half or so after my birthday -
Q: Which is?
A: April 28th. - that O.J. said that, you know, he had - him and I had a conversation a year ago when Nicole and him first got back together, and he said, "I'm gonna give this one year, and if it doesn't work, then I just can't do it."
And so in the conversation about a week and a half or so after my birthday, that was exactly the conversation we had, is that he said, "It's been a year and it's not changing. It's not getting any better," and I think a few days later he saw Paula Barbieri and reconciled with her.
Q: Anything more?
A: As to -
Q: This issue about O.J. Simpson not pursuing Nicole.
A: Specific incident where - actually it was on the way to the meeting to Playboy, which is in my day-timer. It's in March sometime -
Q: You want to look at that right now just so we don' t guess about that date?
A: Yeah. That O.J. and I were driving to the meeting -
Q: Hold on. Look at the date first.
A: March 21st. March 21st, a Monday.
MR.PETROCELLI: Let the record reflect the witness is referring to his planner, which we will mark as the next exhibit in order at a break, which will be Exhibit 167.
Q: Please continue, Mr. Reichardt.
A: Thank you. We were driving in the car, and Cathy Randa called, saying how Nicole was trying frantically to reach O.J., and O.J. said, "I'm on my way to a meeting with Christian. I don't want to talk to her now." And he said, "Don't tell her I'm in the car,"
and that was it.
So, you know, the frame of mind that he was in at that time was not the, as he has been described, as the jealous person pursuing Nicole. I happen to know for a fact that he and I at the time were definitely disengaging from our respective relationships.
And there was a third person who knew about that, which was Ron Fischman, who was going through a very similar thing with his wife, and so the three of us sometimes would talk about how we do not feel that the relationships are working out and the difficulties on how to get away from the relationship.
Q: So what you're saying is that based on your knowledge, O.J. Simpson was trying to get out of his relationship with Nicole. Correct?
A: Well, he - and he did. He was successful, in my opinion, probably about four weeks prior to the murders.
Q: You're sure that O.J. Simpson wanted to get out of his relationship with Nicole?
A: Absolutely.
Q: You're sure he wanted to see that relationship come to an end?
A: Yes.
Q: And O.J. Simpson told you that. Right?
A: Yeah, well, we talked about it quite a bit in those three months.
Q: And he told you that. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: In fact, as you just said, you talked about it "quite a bit." Right?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Over - you have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: Over a number of months. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And O.J. Simpson was unhappy in that relationship with Nicole. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Would you flatly deny that it was Nicole who dumped O.J. Simpson in that relationship at the very end?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
MR. RUBALCAVA: For clarification, can you specify as to when? Because I - if I'm not mistaken -
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Let me withdraw the question. Okay?
Q: At any time in the last three months of Nicole's life, is it true that Nicole rejected O.J. Simpson and said, "I am ending the relationship, not you"? Is that true?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't quite - I don't think it could be answered with yes or no.
MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Why not? You just told me O.J. Simpson ended the relationship, and I am telling you that the opposite may be true. Okay? And I am now going to probe on that, and I would like you to tell me if you know of any information that what you just told me is false and
that in fact it was Nicole Brown Simpson who told O.J. Simpson, "I am ending
the relationship with you, not the other way around." Is that true?
A: So you're asking whether I know any information that negates - I'm trying to clarify the question -
Q: Yes, yes, yes.
A: - that you're asking. I think at the time they both went through times of wanting to be together, not wanting to be together -
Q: My question was limited to the time frame that you were referring to in your prior narrative answer: The last several months.
A: Yeah, I think that they went back and forth for a period of time, and then about four weeks or so before the murders O.J. went back with Paula.
Q: Okay. Let's focus on the last time they broke up, which you say was four weeks before the murders.
A: Yeah.
Q: True?
A: This was when O.J. started seeing Paula again, yes.
Q: Let's focus on that breakup. You have that in mind?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes.
Q: Now, that to your knowledge was the last time O.J. Simpson and Nicole broke up. True?
A: Yes.
Q: And is what you are saying that it was O.J. Simpson who ended that relationship with Nicole -
A: That's correct.
Q: - not the other way around. True?
A: That's correct, yes.
Q: And so anyone who would say that Nicole ended that relationship would be lying. True?
A: Yes.
Q: And you know that it was O.J. Simpson who ended the relationship for the last time because O.J. Simpson told you that. Right?
A: That's correct. At that time.
Q: At that time.
A: He told me at that time.
Q: And you believe now and since Nicole's murder, that that fact has been misstated. True?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you believe that rather than the true fact of O.J. Simpson ending the relationship being portrayed, what is being said is that it was Nicole who ended it and O.J. was pursuing her to change her mind. True?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you think that's false.
A: That Nicole - yes.
Q: And what does any of that have to do with your telling me that O.J.'s innocent?
A: Well, I think he has been portrayed as the jealous ex-husband, and I don't think that that was the fact.
Q: You don't think O.J.-
A: As it has been portrayed.
Q: You don't think OJ. was jealous in the last month because you think it was he, not Nicole, who wanted to stop the relationship. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you think O.J. Simpson was free and happy and content to be out of that relationship. True?
A: Yes. Much more freer and content than he had been in a while.
Q: And O.J. Simpson told you those feelings. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: In conversations that you had with him at the time.
A: That's correct.
Q: And has he reaffirmed those feelings to you in your many conversations since then?
A: Yes.
Q: And has he said to you, you know, "Christian, you know as well as I do that it was me who stopped that relationship, not Nicole, and I was not pursuing her"?
MR. LEONARD: Object to the form.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Has he said those kinds of things to you?
A: No.
Q: You just told me he reaffirmed -
A: Yeah.
Q: - those feelings to you.
A: But not in the fashion that you just -
Q: Well, how did he do it?
A: It's more saying - trying to figure out how this whole thing got misconstrued the way that it did. We're trying to figure out, and I think he's trying to figure out in his head, I'm trying to figure out in my head, where did these accusations come from. How did it evolve from him and I having conversations and knowing - trying to get out of the relationships to he's the insanely raging person that is pursuing and going after his ex-wife. It's very difficult in my head also to perceive how that has happened, you know.
Q: How many times - Well, withdrawn. You've talked to Mr. Simpson about what you just said since he got out of jail. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times have you seen Mr. Simpson since he got out of jail? Now we're talking October, November, December, January, February, March -
A: 20, 30 times.
Q: 20, 30 times? And how many times have you spoken to him on the phone?
A: At least that many times.
Q: So is it fair, 60, 70 times probably, maybe even a hundred? True?
A: Right.
Q: And in a lot of these conversations Mr. Simpson talks about how could this all have happened. Right?
A: I think it's not just Mr. Simpson talking about it. It's me also trying to comprehend.
Q: Now, during the time that Mr. Simpson was in jail, how many times did you visit him?
A: I think probably approximately once every two, three weeks.
Q: Throughout the 16 months?
A: Throughout the 16 months, yes.
Q: And how many times did you speak to him on the phone?
A: Not much, actually. Four, five times. While he was in jail?
Q: Correct.
A: Yeah.
Q: And in any of the meetings that you had with Mr. Simpson in jail, were any of his attorneys present?
A: I think Skip was present a couple times. Skip -
Q: Who is Skip, for the record?
A: Skip is his long-time attorney and friend. Skip Taft is his last name.
Q: Skip was at the jail with you a couple times?
A: Yeah, he was at the jail when I would come there, and I go to visit and chat, and one time I think Skip was there.
Q: What was the first time you visited Mr. Simpson in jail?
A: Probably several months after the murders.
Q: Why did you wait so long to go see him?
A: You know, the murders and the - Faye going to rehab, it really threw me for a loop as a person; it really devastated me and, like I said, I made the decision for a number of months to really just stay away.
Q: Were you asked to come visit him?
A: No.
Q: Did he call you or have people contact you and say, "Christian, I really want to talk to you. I miss you" -
A: No.
Q: - "don't abandon me"?
A: No. That was my - that was my decision to call up Cathy and ask how could I get to see O.J.
Q: And "Cathy" is Cathy Randa?
A: Cathy Randa, yes.
Q: Before you made the decision to call Cathy to ask for permission to see O.J. Simpson, had you spoken to Cathy Randa at all from the time of the murders?
A: No.
Q: Is it true that you spoke to no one on behalf of Mr. Simpson - lawyers, friends, emissaries, middlemen, whatever -
A: Right.
Q: - until you made the call to Randa to go see him?
A: Yeah.
Q: So this was before the Pavelick meeting. Right?
A: Right.
Q: What is the date of the Randa call?
A: I would place it probably before - I would place it probably after, again, our motorcycle trip. When I say "our," Dominick comes with me.
Q: Oh, he did. Did he ride on the same bike?
A: No. After the trip to Sturgis, which ends August 15th.
Q: So when you got back into town. Was the motorcycle trip your opportunity to kind of clear your head about all of this?
A: Yeah. Yes.
Q: When you went to see Mr. Simpson for the first time, did you talk about his innocence or his guilt?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk about the facts and circumstances of the deaths?
A: No.
Q: Of the relationship with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: None of that?
A: No.
Q: What did you talk about?
A: "How are you doing?" You know, it's - my purpose of going down to see O.J. at jail was the thought process of I don't know what happened. It's not my place to decide what happened. A friend of mine got murdered and another friend of mine is sitting in jail accused of the murder, and I think probably as much as for his sake as for my sake, I was trying to come to grips and to terms with what was going on.
Q: Had you decided in your mind as of this point of this first meeting with Mr. Simpson that he was innocent?
A: No.
Q: When did you make that judgment in your own mind?
A: Probably in the weeks before the verdict.
Q: And what was it that caused you to make that judgment at that point in time?
A: The activity and handling of witnesses, me, by the prosecution team; the continuous, like I said, declarations of facts that I knew were not true in the media, through the media, just came to question, well, if they are so sure that he's guilty, why all this rigmarole, why all this -
Q: Explain what you mean about the prosecution's handling of witnesses.
A: Well. I happen to know that in my case, for example, Mr. Darden was not very polite, not very friendly, not very - trying to say it politely -
Q: This is not the place to mince words.
MR. RUBALCAVA: No, let...
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
MR. PETROCELLI: Let the record reflect a consultation between Mr. Reichardt and Mr. Rubalcava.
Q: Please proceed with your answer.
A: He was like - you're being polite, you're being professional, and Mr. Darden was not. He was a jerk, you know. Not only that, but he - by questions he asked me, I knew that he was obviously in contact very much with Faye Resnick. And when I told him, which is not in the deposition - in the interview written because we talked about that after the court reporter had quit taking notes, when I told Mr. Darden that Faye Resnick never had a diary on which she based her whole book and that a lot of the stories that Faye Resnick was bringing forward in her book did not happen the way that they did; and when I told him that Faye Resnick called me from where she was writing her book trying to get dates as to when we were in restaurants, as to when we were on vacation, she couldn't even remember names of the hotels, she couldn't even remember people that were there, when I told Mr. Darden this he became very indignant, and to me it was a question of, well, why hasn't he checked on any of this earlier.
Two days later she got dropped from the witness list. So to me it was very obviously he had not done his homework.
When I talked to him about that I had a conversation with O.J. at 9:00 o'clock on the evening of June 12th, he never asked me, "What did you talk about?" He never asked me, "How did he seem?" He never asked me, "How long did you talk?" Nothing. And to me, as a prosecutor trying to get the truth of a murder, I thought those were pretty important questions, you know.
So to me that's things that in my mind really confirmed the fact that this is a case of I think the police trying to just clear a case out and not follow necessarily up on doing the necessary homework to find the truth.
Q: Are you aware of any other instances of prosecutors not handling witnesses right besides what you just said?
A: Yeah. I got a phone call from a friend who is an attorney, saying, "Who's [Name Deleted] in your life?"
Q: [Name Deleted] who?
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: How do you spell that?
A: [Name Deleted] and I were married for a four-year period of time.
And I said. "What" - "Why?" And the answer was, "Well, the D.A.'s office is investigating who she is in your life."
"What does she have to do with anything?" you know.
I know that Cora Fischman was treated relatively rudely. I know that Candice Garvey came to my office one day, and it was in December of '94, she came in for treatment three, four times in a row for headaches, and I asked her, "Candice, what's going on? You're very nervous. What's happening?
And she said, "The prosecution team is driving me nuts."
And I said, "What's up?" Her answer was that they wanted her to change her story of what happened at the evening of the recital.
And I said, "Cora" - "Candice, look, just stick to what you know. You know what happened. Just keep saying what you know what happened. That's it.'
Well, she explained to me that O.J. at that night to her seemed quieter, seemed tired, but he seemed pretty normal to her. However, whenever her date was in the court, she gets up in the court and says in what gloomy mood he was. So I know she changed her testimony. I want to know why.
I know through Cora - I haven't talked to Ron Fischman, but I know through Cora that Ron was intimidate and was told that, you know, if he comes forward and gives his testimony of what he was talking to the D.A.'s office about, that he might get exposed for utilizing or taking some medications.
You know, I know people were - I don't know whether I want to call it threatened, but put on warning to not come forward with the information they had and, at the same token, people that were not relaying the truth were continuously brought forward as this is what happened, this is what happened, this is what happened.
Q: Any other instances of which you are aware?
A: No. That's it. That's all.
Q: Are you aware of any defense lawyers or investigators mishandling or mistreating witnesses?
A: Not that I'm aware of.
Q: If they did the same thing, you would look as badly on them as you do the prosecutors?
A: Oh, absolutely. To me it's a question of ethics, you know. It's -
Q: Now, what's this about Ron Fischman being exposed for prescribing medication? Tell me about that.
A: I think at the time before the murders, that three-month period of time when O.J., Ron and I would talk about Cora, Faye and Nicole doing whatever it is that they were doing, I think Ron Fischman was definitely the most affected, and he - his way of dealing with the situation was to I think anesthetize himself to some extent to be able to deal with it, you know.
Q: Did Ron Fischman provide medication for friends -
A: No.
Q: - who were not his patients?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Not to your knowledge?
A: Not to my knowledge, no.
Q: Did he prescribe Xanax to O.J. Simpson to your knowledge?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: To Faye Resnick?
A: No, definitely not to Faye.
Q: To you?
A: No.
Q: To Nicole?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Do you know who Naomi Fischman is?
A: I believe it's his mother.
Q: Do you know that a pill vial of Xanax in the name of Naomi Fischman was found in O.J. Simpson's possession at the time of his arrest?
A: I understand that that's what happened.
Q: And do you know how that pill bottle got there?
A: I understand from what happened at the time before the murders when O.J. and I talked is that he - that Nicole one day called up O.J. and said, "O.J. do me a favor. Call Ron. He's going nuts."
Because of what happened. O.J. called Ron, and Ron was driving around in his car, and he had Ron come to his office, and O.J. asked him - or Nicole had told him that Ron is taking medication, and O.J. asked Ron to give him the pills that he was taking, so that Ron had to get off the pills and get back to the office and see patients and do his business and so forth, and he took him then down to the Starbucks around the corner by his office. So that's how I understand that a box of pills got to O.J.'s office.
Q: Is what you're telling me, Mr. Reichardt, that at Nicole's request O.J. Simpson went to see Ron Fischman, who was going through some considerable stress, and when he saw Mr. Fischman at Starbucks, he inquired whether he had any pills on him, and once he learned that he had Xanax, he took it away from him? Is that what you're saying?
A: My understanding of it was that Ron came to O.J.'s office, and in the office O.J. acquired the tube of pills from Ron -
Q: And why did O.J. do so?
A: So that Ron wouldn't take them anymore.
Q: O.J. believed that Ron was taking these pills?
A: Right. Well, we all knew that Ron was taking pills at the time.
Q: Oh, you did know that.
A: Right.
Q: Xanax in particular?
A: I don't know what medications.
Q: What does Xanax treat?
A: I think it's an antidepressive.
Q: And OJ. Simpson believed Ron was taking Xanax?
A: Right.
Q: And he asked Ron for the pills?
A: Right.
Q: And Ron turned them over?
A: Right.
Q: And this occurred in O.J. Simpson's office?
A: Yeah.
Q: Not in Starbucks?
A: Right.
Q: And Ron -
A: As far as I understand it.
Q: Ron just happened to have the pills on him. True?
A: Well, I think Ron at that time was taking medications and carried them with him.
Q: And do you know why the pill prescription was in the name of Naomi Fischman?
A: I don't know.
Q: What did O.J. Simpson do with the pills?
A: When we talked on the phone later that day, we didn't talk about what happened with the pills. He said, "I just took them from him."
Q: What did he do with them?
A: I don't know. He just said, "I took them from him."
Q: Did he throw them away?
A: I don't know. I really don't know. I have no idea.
Q: Do you know why he had them on June 17th?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Do you even know if they're the same pills?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Now, everything you've just related to us, you don't know firsthand. Right?
A: Right.
Q: Who told you all of this? O.J. Simpson?
A: Later that day or the next day we talked about it. Because a couple days after that I went to Ron Fischman's house because Cora called me up and says, "Chris, can you please come over here? Ron is in bed for the last day or two, and he's totally out of it."
So O.J. and I later, we talked about -
Q: So what you're telling me is not only can you say that O.J. Simpson told you this whole story, but you can also corroborate it because Ron Fischman told you as well. Is that what you're saying?
A: No, I don't think Ron told me at the time, because he was too out of it.
Q: So who is the other person? Cora who told you this?
A: Right.
Q: So both Cora and Ron have given you essentially the same account - excuse me. Both OJ. Simpson and Cora Fischman told you what you just related to me.
A: Essentially, yes.
Q: And you remembered that. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Now -
A: Now -
Q: - that is your explanation for why Ron Fischman's pills or Naomi Fischman's pills were found in O.J. Simpson's possession?
A: Right.
Q: While we are on that subject, why don't you also tell me about the disguise, the fake goatee and mustache, and tell me why that was in O.J. Simpson's possession.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you have any information how that happened to be in O.J. Simpson's
possession?
A: No idea.
Q: You've been out with O.J. Simpson many times before June 12, 1994, including in public. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And how many times did you see him don a disguise to conceal his identity?
A: Never.
Q: And is it fair to say that O.J. Simpson liked being famous?
A: I think he was always very polite to people.
Q: And he didn't try to hide from people who he was. True?
A: No.
Q: True?
A: Yeah.
Q: So you never saw him take any efforts to disguise himself. True?
A: Right.
Q: So you would therefore find not credible his explanation that he obtained this disguise to conceal his identity. True?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITN ESS: I wouldn't know how to answer whether I would find it credible or not. It's - I don't even think about why or why not somebody would do that. It's -
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you ever discussed this story about the pill - the Ron Fischman pills with O.J. Simpson since he got out of jail?
A: Yes.
Q: And have you discussed with him the mustache, the fake goatee and mustache?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever asked him, "Hey, Mr. Simpson," or "O.J.," whatever - What do you call him?
A: O.J.
Q: - "why was this in your possession?"
A: No.
Q: Did you ask him why the pill vial was in his possession?
A: I knew why it was in his possession.
Q: Well, no. You just told me that you knew that he had taken it from Ron Fischman at his office in Brentwood.
A: Right.
Q: But you didn't give me any information as to why weeks later, while he's fleeing the police, that the pill vial was in his possession.
MR. LEONARD: Object to the characterization "fleeing the police."
THE WITNESS: To me it's not a question. I happen to put things somewhere and I don't put them away, I don't throw things away - in my mind it didn't create a question why those pills would be there X weeks later after knowing the story that happened with Ron.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: "There" being where?
A: At O.J.'s office.
Q: No. The pills being where? Where were they found on June 17? Do you know?
A: I believe, as far as I understand it, that they were found in his office.
Q: They were found in his black grip, his - you know what his black grip is, his shoulder bag?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Are you aware of that?
A: No
Q: This is the first time you learned that?
A: Yeah.
Q: So when you discussed this with O.J. Simpson, he never said to you, "Well, wait a second. That's not the whole story. It was in my black grip, my shoulder bag, not in my office." Did he ever say that to you?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes or no.
MR. LEONARD: Leading.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe so.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: He never explained that to you. Correct?
A: It's -
Q: Correct?
A: Yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. We will break for lunch here.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Good, because I was just going to ask.
(At the hour of 12:20 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:20 p.m.)
(At the hour of 1:22 p.m., the deposition of CHRISTIAN H. REICHARDT was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present.)
(Plaintiffs' exhibit 167 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
MR. PETROCELLI: Back on the record.
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: We are back from lunch. I would like to start by having you relate to us your discussion with Johnnie Cochran at dinner sometime when?
A: Probably September of '94.
Q: Okay. Whose idea was it to get together for dinner?
A: I think it was actually Dominick's idea.
Q: Where did you go?
A: We went to Chaya Brasserie on Main Street in Venice.
Q: Okay. Why don't you relate the conversation.
A: The conversation with Mr. Cochran was very similar to the conversation that I had with Mr. Pavelick, but a little bit more in detail, and it was basically more me relaying things that I knew about O.J., the case, Faye, Nicole prior to the murders, in the months before the murders.
Q: Was anyone there with Mr. Cochran?
A: No. He was by himself.
Q: And did he take notes?
A: He took some notes.
Q: And did Mr. Pavelick take notes?
A: Yes, he did take some notes.
Q: Have you ever seen those notes?
MR. RUBALCAVA: Pavelick was not at that meeting.
THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah, he was at a different meeting
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Different meeting. That was the breakfast at - did you say Starbucks?
A: Starbucks.
Q: Have you ever seen those notes?
A: No.
Q: Has anyone ever tape-recorded a conversation with you?
A: No. Other than Christopher Darden.
Q: Other than Christopher Darden?
A: Yeah.
Q: So you went over with Mr. Cochran the information you had concerning Mr. Simpson's relationship with Nicole?
A: Basically more the events prior to the murders. We didn't really talk about the relationship of O.J. to Nicole at the time.
Q: What do you mean by "the events"?
A: More like times as to when Faye was going over to Nicole's house, when the whole thing started that Faye and Nicole started going out.
Q: Have you ever written down you information so that you would not forget it?
A: Yeah.
Q: And where did you write it down?
A: I wrote it down in note pads at home.
Q: Where are those note pads?
A: I have them at home.
Q: I need to see those.
A: No problem.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Write it down so you don't forget it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Has anyone ever seen those note pads, Mr. Reichardt?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever told anyone about them?
A: I talked to a friend of mine as why I'm keeping notes: So that I can keep it clear in my head and get recollection as to what happened.
Q: And who is this?
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: Is that a woman?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: When did you tell [Name Deleted] about the notes?
A: Oh, probably as I was taking the notes, over a course of months.
Q: And when did you begin to take the notes?
A: I would say probably December that year.
Q: After the Cochran dinner?
A: Yeah, way after that.
Q: Did Cochran suggest that you do so?
A: No.
Q: Did anyone suggest it to you?
A: No.
a: Does Mr. Simpson know about these notes?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever told anyone other than [Name Deleted] about these notes?
A: No.
Q: How long are the notes?
A: Probably like 50 pages or so.
Q: Have you prepared these notes in anticipation of writing a book one day?
A: I thought about it, but the notes are more my - helping my own thought processing as to what was going on.
Q: I would like you to bring the notes on Monday, but I have a request, and that is I don't want you to show them to Mr. Simpson or any of his lawyers.
A: Okay.
Q: Okay?
A: No problem.
Q: I don't want him to have access to those notes before I do.
A: No problem.
MR. PETROCELLI: Is that agreeable?
MR. RUBALCAVA: I don't have any problem with that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you.
MR. BREWER: Let me just ask, was it 50 or 15?
MR. PETROCELLI: 50, 5-O.
THE WITNESS: 50.
MR. BREWER: Thanks.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And I would request that you not read those notes to Mr. Leonard or any other lawyer for Mr. Simpson or to Mr. Simpson. I would like to have a chance to review those without any prior access of Mr. Simpson. Is that fair?
A: Yes.
Q: Thank you. Have you had any discussions with book publishers?
A: No.
Q: At any time?
A: No.
Q: Have you had any discussions with collaborators?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any present intention to write a book?
A: I'm thinking about it.
Q: Have you talked to OJ. Simpson about that at all?
A: No.
Q: What would your book be about?
A: The book would be about ethics and the book would be about questioning why people have behaved the way that they have in the light of this trial and in the light of this story.
Q: You're referring to what you believe has been some of the inappropriate conduct of witnesses and other events that have caused Mr. Simpson to be unjustly accused, in your view. True?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, if - Okay. Now that you've mentioned the notes, is there anything else that you have at home or anywhere, for that matter, that in any way, shape or form relates to this case, any writings you have made, any musings, any tape recordings, anything?
A: No.
Q: Your lawyer was chiding me during the break about the fact that I didn't ask you about computer information, and I didn't because I don't venture into that territory since I'm computer illiterate, but -
A: So am I.
Q: - but do you have any information on computer, on any kind of a hard drive or disk -
A: No.
Q: - or anything like that?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever set down with [Name Deleted] to talk about your thoughts?
A: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Q: So [Name Deleted] was involved in your preparing these notes?
A: No. She's involved in - she's a friend of mine that I can talk to about what goes on in my head.
Q: When did you first talk to [Name Deleted] about this OJ. Simpson situation, that is, the deaths of Nicole and Ron right after they happened?
A: Probably in the week after the murders.
Q: She was a friend of yours even before the murders?
A: Yes.
Q: She was someone that you confided in and talked to?
A: Right.
Q: Did Faye know her also?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did O.J. Simpson know her?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: How far does your relationship with [Name Deleted]date back?
A: 1984.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 168 was marked for identification by the reporter, the first page of which is attached hereto and the original was retained by Mr. Rubalcava.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I have attached as Exhibit 168 the photocopy of your January to June 1994 day-timer. Okay?
A: Okay.
Q: And we will review that over the weekend -
A: No problem.
Q: - in preparation for Monday.
MR. RUBALCAVA: After copies have been made and everyone's comfortable with the level of the copies, may the originals be returned?
MR. PETROCELLI: The original day-timers?
MR. RUBALCAVA: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes, I will return them to you with an understanding that you will preserve them in their current condition and not make them available to anyone until the time of trial.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You had told me before the break about two essential points demonstrating Mr. Simpson's innocence: One was his physical condition, and the other was the information that was being misconstrued and manipulated in the public.
Do you recall that testimony?
A: Yes.
Q: Is there anything else that you have to add to that?
A: No. I think that covers it.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Excuse me a moment.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You have had a chance to confer with your lawyer. Do you have something to add?
A: Yeah. The other part is that since the trial I've been able to follow a little bit more of the evidence, and some of the pieces of evidence just didn't make that much sense to me.
Q: And what are they?
A: The location of the glove, the supposed...
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Your lawyer has just conferred with you again.
A: The testimony of Mr. Fuhrman, the way that Mr. Fuhrman's testimony was handled when he was asked to come back.
Q: Anything else?
A: The location of the bloody socks in O.J.'s room, knowing what a tidy man he is. That's just about it.
Q: Now, with respect to the location of the glove, could you explain in greater detail what you mean?
A: Well, I haven't gone into the back part of the house, but I know the floor plan of the house, and I know where that location would be, and it just seems very impossible to me to - how it was proposed that, as far as my understanding is, how somebody that is covered with blood goes through the house that is very light carpet, through the house to the back corner there, put a glove there and then have no blood along the trail where you would have to go in order to drop a glove. It just doesn't make any sense to me.
Q: Anything else about that point?
A: No.
Q: And the testimony of Mr. Fuhrman, what do you have to say about that?
A: It's - well, number one, it's very unbelievable to me that he never used the N word. To me it was - it's pretty clear that hardly anybody in this room has done that or in this country has done that. And the fact that then when he was asked to come back for further testimony, that he just evoke the Fifth Amendment.
Q: Anything else?
A: That's about it.
Q: And the last point, about the bloody socks in O.J. Simpson's room.
A: Right. O.J. is a very tidy man. You know, he gets up in the morning and makes his own bed right away. It's like a very key issue to him to have things tidy.
Q: How do you know that, that he makes his own bed in the morning?
A: I've been there.
Q: You've been in his bedroom in the morning when he gets up?
A: Sounds funny, but I've helped him in the morning, to come over there and do some stretching and get him going and do some exercises.
Q: How often have you done that?
A: Like I said, before the murder probably couple times, and since the murder, once.
Q: And when you did it before the murder a couple times, you did it in his bedroom early in the morning?
A: Yeah.
Q: Last time was a month or two before the murders?
A: Actually probably more like four months before the murders.
Q: Did you talk to Mr. Simpson during the lunch break?
A: No.
Q: Or anyone?
A: My secretary.
Q: Okay. And your lawyer. but that's it. Right?
A: And my lawyer.
MR.RUBALCAVA: Excuse me. We also talked to a mutual friend of ours, not about this case at all.
MR. PETROCELLI: You had no conversations about this case?
MR.RUBALCAVA: No conversations about this case.
BY MR.PETROCELLI:
Q: So now your best recollection is that you did the stretching - the last kind of stretching that you did with O.J. Simpson was about four months before June 12, 1994.
A: The last time that I was at his home doing the stretching.
Q: Last time at his home. But the last time you did it at all was when?
A: Was a couple or months or so before -
Q: Couple of months?
A: Yeah, something around then.
Q: And that would have been at your office?
A: Yeah.
Q: On this subject of his physical condition. are you planning to testify at trial about Mr. Simpson's physical condition?
A: If I'm asked to. I haven't been asked to.
Q: Have you been asked to?
A: No.
MR. PETROCELLI: Are you -
MR. LEONARD: No, we are not planning to call him as an expert witness on that.
MR. PETROCELLI: And I assume that he will be then offering no testimony whatsoever about Mr. Simpson's physical ability or not to commit these murders?
MR. LEONARD: No, he will not.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you said that you thought it was impossible for him to commit these murders, you didn't mean that you had formed a professional judgment to that effect.
A: Correct.
Q: Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: That was just your personal opinion?
A: Correct.
Q: And you hadn't done any real analysis or study or made any medical or scientific effort to make that judgment. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Now, did you ever talk to O.J. Simpson about this point you made concerning the questionable location of the glove? You've talked to him about that. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And he agrees with you?
A: Yeah.
Q: And he agrees with you concerning your comments about Mr. Fuhrman?
A: Yeah, we had a conversation about that briefly sometime.
Q: And have you talked to O.J. Simpson about the location of the bloody sock in his room?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: Never once mentioned that at all?
A: No.
Q: Have you seen his video?
A: I've seen a part of it, the first five minutes.
Q: You didn't watch the whole thing?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: I had to go.
Q: You had to go where?
A: I went home. I had to make some phone calls.
Q: Where were you?
A: I was at O.J.'s house.
Q: He was watching it?
A: Right.
Q: The finished product?
A: The finished product.
Q: Who was there watching it with him?
A: I think Dan was there, Mr. Blasier was there, his housekeeper Gigi.
Q: When was this?
A: I just stopped by to say hello.
Q: "Dan" is Dan Leonard. Right?
A: Dan Leonard, yeah.
Q: And when was this?
A: Whenever that video came out.
Q: And what was O.J. Simpson saying at the time?
A: You know, I really didn't pay that much attention. I stopped by, was there for a few minutes, and I left.
Q: So you've never seen any part of the video other than the first five minutes?
A: Right.
Q: Did you have any conversations with Mr. Simpson about this video before he made it?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you know that he is receiving money for it?
A: I believe so, yeah.
Q: Does that trouble you, that he is profiting from the murder of his ex-wife and the mother of his children?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't believe that he's profiting from the murder. I think he's explaining himself, and I think he has a right to make money.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: He has as much right to make money as any other person. True?
A: That's correct.
Q: So you don't fault him that he will receive money for the sale of the videotape that deals with the murder of the mother of his children. True?
A: That's correct.
Q: Have you and O.J. Simpson talked about the so-called efforts on his part to find the real killer or killers?
A: We did several months ago.
Q: How many months ago?
A: Probably after the - after the verdict.
Q: Where were you and where was he when you had this conversation?
A: I believe we were at his house, sitting in the garden.
Q: Just you and him?
A: Yeah.
Q: And relate the conversation.
A: It was very brief, that he said he still would like to find out who did the murders.
Q: And did you - what did you say?
A: I said, "That's a good idea."
Q: What did he say?
A: That's about it, you know. Nothing -
Q: End of conversation?
A: End of conversation.
Q: Now, have you had any other conversation with O.J. Simpson about finding the real killer or killers?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether O.J. Simpson has done anything to find the real killer or killers?
A: I don't know. I'm not privy to that information.
Q: Do you ask him from time to time, "What are you doing?"
A: No.
Q: Are you aware of a statement read on his behalf by his son Jason following the acquittal that Mr. Simpson would devote his life's work to finding the real killer or killers?
A: Yes.
Q: And have you pursued with Mr. Simpson what he is doing to make - to satisfy that commitment?
A: No.
Q: Do you care if he does anything one way or the other?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
Il21 THEWITNESS: Yes, I would love to find out who the killers are, but it's not my job to tell anybody what they should or shouldn't do.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And do you care -
A: Oh, yes.
Q: - if he does anything to find the real killer?
A: Like I said, see, I detached myself from caring what he does or not. That's not my - I'm not trying to be argumentative with you. I'm trying to explain to you. It's not my job to ask him what he does or to care. It's - you know, I draw the line where I get myself involved.
Q: Have you -
MR. RUBALCAVA: Excuse me. Excuse me for one second.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
THE WITNESS: As a friend of Nicole, I would like to find out what happened, you know. That's what I was trying to say. I would like - when I talk to O.J. and he said that he's pursuing it, I said, 'That's a good idea."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And have you followed up with him since that one conversation many months ago?
A: No
Q: Are you aware whether he has spent any money or done a single thing to find the killer?
A: I don't know.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you have any such information?
A: I have no information.
Q: Would it disappoint you to find out that he has done nothing at all?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: It would not disappoint you?
A: No
Q: Why not?
A: Because it's not my job to figure out what he does. You know, people will do what they will do.
Q: Did you ever ask Mr. Simpson why his blood was found at Nicole's condominium?
A: No.
Q: Never did?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever ask him why his blood was found in his - at the Rockingham home?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever ask him why he was bleeding on the very same night that his wife was murdered?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever ask him why Nicole's blood was found in the Bronco?
A: No.
Q: Or why Ron Goldman's blood was found in the Bronco?
A: No.
Q: Or why fibers from Mr. Simpson's clothing were found on Nicole and Ron?
A: Never asked. And that might sound strange, but I don't -
Q: It does sound strange.
A: - but I don't involve myself in that, no.
Q: But you've had many, many conversations with Mr. Simpson and you have formed the opinion that he is as innocent as a person could be, yet you have never once inquired about any of these pieces of evidence. True?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: True?
A: With him directly, no, never. I never have.
Q: And has he ever bothered to ask you - or bothered to explain to you how that evidence got there?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Has he ever said to you in words or in substance, "Mr. Reichardt" or "Christian" - what does he call you?
A: Christian.
Q: Christian or Chris. I notice your lawyer cells you Chris.
A: Christian.
Q: "Christian. I don't want you to get the wrong idea here, but let me tell you why that blood was found at Bundy." He never -
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: He never said that to you?
A: No.
Q: Never had a discussion about that?
A: No.
Q: Are you curious?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Why don't you ask him?
A: Because it's not my place.
Q: Don't you want to know who killed Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do want to know who killed Nicole, but -
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Don't you think by asking him you might be able to satisfy yourself one way or the other?
A: No,
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Don't you believe it might give you some insight as to whether your friend O.J. Simpson, your very dear friend, may be the guilty person?
A: I don't need any further insight.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So in other words, if Mr. Simpson were to admit that that indeed was his blood at Bundy and was his blood at Rockingham and it was Nicole's blood in the Bronco and was Ron's blood in the Bronco and so forth, it would not change your opinion. True?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: That's a hard question to answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: That's why I asked it.
A: If he himself would say that he committed the murders and that is the reason why all the evidence was found, obviously I would change my mind.
Q: Have you asked him that?
A: No.
Q: Have you asked him, "O.J., did you do it?"
A: No
Q: Has he told you?
A: No.
Q: Has he told you that he killed Nicole or Ron Goldman?
A: No.
Q: Has he told you that he did not do so?
A: No. See, you have to understand, I don't - I might not have the same questions that many other people have because it's not my thought processing to deal with it like that. There's certain things that I can be responsible for, and that's it, and that's just my life, so...
Q: What kind of questions did you ask O.J. Simpson to satisfy your own feelings about his responsibility?
A: I didn't.
Q: How did you first hear of Nicole's death?
A: Faye's ex-husband called me at my office.
Q: Paul Resnick?
A: Paul Resnick.
Q: When was that?
A: It was about 10:00 o'clock Monday morning, the day of the murder.
Q: And what did he tell you?
A: He told me that Nicole had been murdered, and he asked me whether I thought Faye was safe in the rehab center where she was at and - because him and I - I asked him why, and he thought that possibly this was a drug-related murder.
Q: This is what Paul Resnick told you?
A: Right. And Paul Resnick was one of the few people who knew where Faye was, and he asked me whether I had told anybody else where Faye was. He asked me whether I thought it was prudent to get Faye out of the rehab center and fly her to his ranch in - I believe it's in Idaho.
And I said, "Well," you know, "nobody other than very closest friends know where Faye is at, "so I thought she was safe wherever she's at.
Q: In other words, you made the decision that you would not move Faye. Correct?
A: Paul and I made that decision together, yeah.
Q: And you did not move Faye.
A: Right.
Q: And so you thought that she was safe where she was. True?
A: Because nobody knew where she was.
Q: Regardless of the reasons, you thought she was safe. True?
A: Right.
Q: And there were a number of people who in fact knew where she was. True?
A: Only the people that were present during the intervention.
Q: The intervention. And they may have told other people.
A: They may have. I wouldn't - yeah.
Q: And the people present at the intervention included yourself.
A: Correct.
Q: Paul Resnick. Of course Nicole was there.
A: Right.
Q: Kris Jenner.
A: Kris Jenner, Bruce Jenner -
Q: Bruce Jenner.
A: - and [Name Deleted].
Q: [Name Deleted]. And O.J. Simpson knew, too. Right?
A: He came back into town, and I think at the recital Ron told him - Ron and Cora told him that I had put Faye in the rehab center. So that was what prompted his phone call to me on that Sunday evening: To see how I was doing, to see how I was holding up.
Q: Faye went into the rehab center on June 9?
A: A Thursday.
Q: Thursday?
A: Yeah.
Q: Look at your calendar.
MR. RUBALCAVA: He knows the date.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What is the date?
A: The Thursday of -
MR. RUBALCAVA: The first full week of -
THE WITNESS: Do you have '94?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Thursday is June 9, 1994.
A: Right.
Q: And that's when Faye was admitted?
A: Right.
Q: After June 9, 1994, when was the first time you spoke to O.J. Simpson?
A: After June 9, was that Sunday evening.
Q: Okay. So you didn't hear from O.J. Simpson all day on June 9, '94. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you did not hear from him all day on June l0, l994. True?
A: Correct.
Q: And you did not hear from O.J Simpson all day on June 11, 1994.
A: Correct.
Q: And you did not hear from OJ. Simpson at all during the hours of 6:00 a.m. through noon on June 12. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you did not hear from O.J. Simpson at all from noon to 6:00 o'clock on June 12. True?
A: True.
Q: And you didn't hear from O.J. Simpson during the time 6:00 to 8:30 p.m. Correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: But you did hear from O.J. Simpson around 9:00 o'clock p.m. on June 12.
A: Right.
Q: Couple of hours before he was scheduled to be on an airplane. True?
A: Correct. In fact, I didn't hear from him for about l0 days prior to that because he was in Florida.
Q: So the first time you had spoken to O.J. Simpson in about l0 days or so was about an hour before the murders occurred.
A: That's correct.
Q: Is that right?
A: Yeah.
Q: In your opinion the murders occurred at 10:00 o'clock?
A: I suppose what was said at the media, the time line were around 10:30, 10:15, 10:00 o'clock. I don't know.
Q: Prior to - by the way, let's talk about that telephone call since you have brought it up a number of times.
You were watching this television show on a station that you don't remember the name of, on a station that you cannot recall.
A: Right.
Q: And you get a phone - and you're home alone. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you get a phone call from O.J. Simpson.
A: Yes.
Q: How many times did the phone ring, by the way?
A: Couple times. The phone was right next to the couch.
Q: You answered it. You said "Hello." What did he say?
A: He said, "Christian, how you doing? How you holding up? I heard about Faye. How you doing?"
Q: What did you say?
A: I said, "I'm hanging in there. I'm just sitting at home preparing myself for tomorrow."
Q: What did he say?
A: He says, "Good, you got to just hang in there." Kind of like that's the gist of the conversation.
And I think he asked somebody over his shoulder, which I believe now must be Kato, what the scores were during the day on the football day, and that he's going to Chicago and he's going to be back Wednesday and that we should get together for dinner, and that Paula has a couple friends that are really cute and that will be great if we get together.
Q: Meaning that you would be interested in Paula's friends?
A: Yeah, that Paula has some friends and that would be great to have dinner with a few people.
Q: What were the scores that he was asking Kato about?
A: I don't know. Must be football scores or -
Q: How do you know it was Kato?
A: That's why I said I assume it was Kato.
Q: What did he say to make you assume it was Kato?
A: Well, I found out later, which makes me assume now that it was Kato, knowing that Kato was there at the time, but it was somebody who was - he was very familiar with, saying, "Hey, what were the scores today?"
Q: How did you find out it was Kato?
A: Now we know that Kato spent time with him that evening. At the time.
Q: We do?
A: Isn't that what Kato says?
Q: News to me. I don't know that.
A: Well, they went out to have something to eat.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Red meat.
MR. PETROCELLI: Red meat.
THE WITNESS: Red meat, right after -
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Against your wishes. Let me get this straight now. At the time what did you hear Mr. Simpson say to make you think he was talking to another person?
A: "What were the scores?" Obviously, the sound changed.
Q: What were the scores?
A: I don't know. I'm not interested in football. I don't know.
Q: In other words, you heard the level of his voice diminish, making you believe that he had taken the receiver away from his mouth while he was talking to someone else. Correct?
MR. LEONARD: Object to the form.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that true?
A: That's what it sounded like.
Q: Could you tell whether he was on a cell phone or a regular phone?
A: Sounded like pretty clear connection.
Q: And you heard a TV in the background?
A: Yes.
Q: And could you hear that it was tuned into a sports event?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And by the way, did he just in the middle of talking to you all of a sudden interrupt and ask this question about the scores?
A: Yeah. It was like we're talking about going for dinner, and he said, "Hold on a second," you know, something comes on television, "What were the scores?"
Q: The scores?
A: Yeah.
Q: And did you ask what scores he was talking about?
A: I'm not interested in sports. I don't... Doesn't mean much to me.
MR. RUBALCAVA: For the record, we'll stipulate that proof that he doesn't know much about sports is the fact this was in June and he said it must have been football, is proof of that.
MR. PETROCELLI: I was going to get to that.
Q: What did - did O.J. ask you to go out to dinner? You said, "We were talking about going for dinner."
A: The Wednesday when he came back.
Q: Okay. So are you pretty sure that told you that he was leaving town in that telephone call?
A: Yeah. I know he said that he was packing his bags - he was getting ready; he was packing his bag to get ready to go out of town.
Q: Are you positive of that?
A: Yeah.
Q: So O.J. Simpson called you up and told you that he was packing his bags, getting ready to go out of town, and he told you this around 9:00 p.m. on June 12. True?
A: That's correct.
Q: And he also told you that he was leaving that night on an airplane. True?
A: Yeah.
Q: And he told you it was a red eye. Right?
A: I'm catching the 11:00 o'clock flight, or something.
Q: 11:00 o'clock flight. Okay. To where?
A: To Chicago.
Q: He told you all that.
A: When I asked him, you know - he asked me, "How are you doing?" I asked him, "What's up? What are you doing?" He says, "I'm packing my bag to go out of town."
Q: By the way, did he ask you for any change?
A: Any change?
Q: For the skycap. No?
A: (No audible response.)
Q: How long was this call?
A: Probably seven, eight minutes. You know, it was relatively brief, brief conversation, like just a -
Q: What was your phone number then?
A: Same as now [Deleted telephone number]
Q: What else did you talk about - Did you say six to seven or seven to eight?
A: Seven to eight.
Q: What else did you talk about?
A: That was about it. He was telling me if Paula - going for dinner, packing bags, Faye briefly being in rehab, hang in there. That's it.
Q: What did he say about Paula?
A: Yeah, that she has some cute friends, that it will be great if we all get together for dinner.
Q: Did he tell you that he and Paula had had an argument?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you that Paula was pissed at him?
A: No.
Q: You have found out since that Paula had ended their relationship at 7:00 in the morning on Sunday, the 12th. Correct?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You may answer.
A: I've heard, but I don't know what the accuracy of that is.
Q: You haven't talked to O.J. Simpson about that?
A: No.
Q: He didn't tell you that that's what Paula testified to at her deposition?
A: No.
Q: Never discussed that subject at all?
A: No.
Q: Did he say anything to you about Paula other than that he is going to try to hook up with some of her friends and you when he gets back from Chicago?
A: No. That was it.
Q: He said he'd be back Wednesday?
A: Yeah.
Q: Have you ever related that conversation to anyone else?
A: To Pavelick, Mr. Cochran.
Q: Pavelick, Mr. Cochran.
A: And I started to talk about that with Mr. Darden.
Q: Darden.
A: Dominick.
Q: Dominick. Dominick Rubalcava, your lawyer.
A: Yes.
Q: Anyone else?
A: Probably [Name Deleted]. I think in my I deposition - in my interview with Barbara Walters I talked about it briefly, I believe. I don't make a habit of discussing things.
Q: Did you write it down in your notes?
A: Yeah.
Q: When was the first time you wrote down the conversation that you just reported you had with O.J. Simpson on June 12?
A: I think I made notes on that in December of '94.
Q: After speaking to both Pavelick and Cochran. Correct?
A: Although they were not the incidents to prompt me to write those notes.
Q: But you did write them after speaking to these two lawyers - or these two representatives -
A: Right.
Q: - of OJ. Simpson.
A: That's correct.
Q: You mentioned the Barbara Walters interview. I've had during the break a transcript of that interview marked as Exhibit 167 and asked you during the break to review the statements attributed to you. Have you done so?
A: Yeah, I glanced over them.
Q: Are they accurate?
A: On first view, yeah.
Q: Did you tell the truth?
A: Pretty accurate. Oh, yes.
Q: If you were under oath, would you have said anything different?
A: That's right.
Q: Would you have?
A: No. Not only under oath.
Q: Excuse me?
A: Not only under oath. I just say the truth.
Q: You told Barbara Walters the truth, is what I'm asking you. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: The interview occurred on October 21, 1994?
A: Yeah, I think that's what the date was.
Q: And as you stated in the interview to Ms. Walters, O.J. Simpson asked you if you would be kind enough to come forward and speak on his behalf. True?
A: If I find inaccuracies with Faye's book, yes.
Q: And you did. Right?
A: I did in my time speaking to Mr. Darden or in that book.
Q: So after Mr. Simpson asked you to come forward and speak on his behalf, you did so. Correct?
A: Yes, you could put it like that.
Q: And before he asked you to come forward and speak on your behalf, you had never come forward to speak to anyone publicly. True?
A: That's correct.
Q: Have you told us everything that you can recall that was said in the conversation of June 12?
A: With Mr. Simpson?
Q: Yes.
A: Yeah.
Q: Have you ever discussed that conversation with him since he got out of jail?
A: We talked about it briefly, but no - you know, I don't go and, like I said, make a point of discussing it, anything about the case.
Q: He might though. True?
A: I don't feed into it.
Q: He might have a reason to talk to you about it.
A: I think people want to clarify their own mind, go through questions in their own mind, so...
Q: And O.J. Simpson has talked to you about it because in your view he wants to clarify in his own mind what was said. Right?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
MR. PETROCELLI: Did you get his answer? His answer was "Right."
THEWITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, have you left anything out of that conversation?
A: No.
Q: Nothing?
A: No, I believe not.
Q: Did you hear any person respond to Mr. Simpson's request about the scores while you were on the telephone with Mr. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: I take it that Mr. Simpson sounded normal to you on the telephone?
A: Yeah.
Q: In other words, he didn't sound gloomy. Right?
A: No. If anything, he sounded more relieved.
Q: Relieved.
A: He was happy. He seemed more relaxed. He seemed more jovial.
Q: So in your opinion, he didn't sound like someone who was just going to go out and kill somebody. Right?
A: Definitely not.
Q: Definitely not. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: I take it, then, he told you nothing about going to the recital.
A: No
Q: And he told you nothing about Sydney Simpson. Right?
A: No. He actually - we did talk about something else, is that he had just come back from a trip with Paula and that it was nice to spend time with woman that he got along with very well.
(Telephone interruption.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In other words, in this conversation an hour or so before the murder of Nicole, O.J. Simpson is telling you how, in effect, happy he is to be seeing Paula. True?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: True?
A: Yes.
Q: What did he say about Paula in this conversation?
A: Just like that one said - he was saying that how nice it is to be with a lady that he gets along with very well.
Q: And you understood that he was contrasting Paula with Nicole, in other words. Right?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: That's a fair statement. Right?
A: Yes, that's a fair statement.
Q: And Mr. Leonard doesn't want you to say that by his objections, but you are not going to let his objections influence you. Right?
A: Figure out what - how to answer the question.
MR. LEONARD: That's not a fair comment, Mr. Petrocelli.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I just want to make sure that you are not influenced and that your testimony doesn't come out I shaded or slanted because Mr. Simpson's lawyers are objecting. Okay?
A: That's correct.
Q: Thank you. The objections are for the court to deal with, and the witnesses are not to be concerned with them.
Did Mr. Simpson, by the way, tell you whether or not he would be here today?
A: No.
Q: Now, before I asked you if there was anything else that you had to add to the conversation. You said there wasn't, but then you remembered the Paula -
A: Right.
Q: - point. Let me ask you again now: Is there anything else that was said in that conversation?
A: I don't believe so.
Q: So he didn't say anything about the recital.
A: No.
Q: And he didn't say anything about Sydney Simpson.
A: No.
Q: And having just seen her perform hours before.
A: No.
Q: And he didn't tell you that he had come all the way back from the East Coast to go see her perform. Right?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And he didn't tell you that he had just been in Connecticut and in New York. Right?
A: No.
Q: And you didn't know any of that. Right?
A: No.
Q: You hadn't spoken to him for at least two weeks.
A: Yeah, 10 days, something like that.
Q: And you knew nothing about his whereabouts from any other person either. True?
A: Right. I thought he was in Florida during the time, for the whole time, or the East Coast.
Q: Did you still think he was in Florida at the time of the phone call?
A: No, no. I knew that he was back at home.
Q: How did you know that?
A: Because I had the conversation with Nicole earlier in the day, about 4:30, 5:00, when she called me up to check on how I was feeling because of Faye. She asked me whether I had seen Faye that day, and she was getting dressed to go to the recital.
Q: But how did you know that O.J. Simpson called you from his house?
A: I don't.
Q: So you don't know where he was when he called you. Right?
A: No.
Q: So he could have been out of town, for all you knew.
A: Yeah. Sounded like a very clear connection to me, so I assumed that he was there because I knew that he was gonna go to the recital from Nicole.
Q: So you believed he was in Los Angeles.
A: Yeah.
Q: And is it fair to say that based on the conversation you had with him at the time at 9:00 o'clock, you believed that he was at home at Rockingham at the time of the call?
A: That's correct.
Q: You talked about packing and television in the background, the whole thing. Right?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. Now, tell me about this conversation with Nicole on the 12th. Is that the only time you talked to her that day?
A: Yes.
Q: And when had you spoken to Nicole before June 12th?
A: The Friday evening before, so it would be the 10th.
Q: The 10th.
A: Right.
Q: And when before the 10th?
A: On Thursday morning, the day - the morning after the intervention, because in the intervention Faye had agreed to go to the rehab, and then on the morning when she woke up she disagreed. She didn't want to go . So I called up the different people that were at the intervention to talk to Faye again, and Nicole was one of the people.
Q: So you spoke to Nicole on Thursday, the morning of June -
A: 9th.
Q: - 9th. Right? Is that right?
A: Right, should be the 9th, yeah.
Q: And you spoke to Nicole only one time that day?
A: Right, I believe so.
Q: And the sole subject of that conversation was Faye Resnick and her going into rehab. Right?
A: Right, yeah.
Q: How long - Was it a phone call?
A: It was a phone call.
Q: How long did it last?
A: Probably not more than a few minutes, because what I was trying to do is have everybody just talk to Faye and remind her of the promise that she made to everybody the night before.
Q: How many times did you talk to Nicole on that day, June 9?
A: I believe it was just that one time. It was a pretty hectic morning.
Q: Did you see her that day?
A: No
Q: On June l0, which is Friday -
A: Right.
Q: - when did you speak to her on Friday?
A: Later in the day, and it was concerning Francesca, what to do with Francesca and -
Q: Francesca is the daughter of -
A: Faye's daughter.
Q: Faye's daughter?
A: Right.
Q: Faye had already been taken to the rehabilitation center. Right?
A: Right.
Q: What was the name of that place?
A: Exodus.
Q: Exodus. Part of Daniel Freeman Hospital?
A: Right.
Q: And you spoke to Nicole about the care of Francesca?
A: Right.
Q: You called Nicole?
A: No. I think it was actually Nicole calling me.
Q: To find out about Francesca?
A: No. To find out how I was doing, how I was feeling.
Q: How you were feeling.
A: Right.
Q: She called you where?
A: At home.
Q: What time was it?
A: I don't recall. Probably between 8:00, 9:00 o'clock, something like that.
Q: How long did that call last?
A: Actually it was a pretty brief call because Nicole and I disagreed as to what to do with Francesca, and so -
Q: What did Nicole say?
A: She said, "I don't want to deal with it," and she slammed down the phone.
Q: Well, why don t you relate the conversation from beginning to end so we can better understand it.
A: When I was at home that evening after visiting Faye, I believe it was Nicole who called me and wanted to know how I was doing, how are things going, and I approached the subject matter of Francesca, and Nicole basically said, "Look, I've got enough stuff to handle in my own house. I don't want to get involved. That's between Faye and you," and she hung up the phone.
Q: Is that the first time she ever hung up on you?
A: In that fashion, yeah.
Q: What do you mean, "In that fashion"?
A: Well, you know -
Q: Angrily?
A: Angrily, yeah.
Q: So that was the first time, on June 10, that Nicole had ever hung up on you angrily. Right?
A: Right.
Q: You didn't get a word in edgewise, it sounds.
A: Right.
Q: Very, very short conversation.
A: Very brief conversation.
Q: Did you know what Nicole was referring to, by the way, when she talked about what was going on in her life?
A: I think she was very upset that Faye was at the rehab center. I think that really - that really distressed her.
Q: In what way?
A: In the hours before the intervention Nicole and Paul Resnick and I met, and Nicole was very distressed that Faye had deteriorated to that degree in her drug use again, and she felt partially responsible for letting her slip that far because she had been at Nicole's house for I guess the - since the end of March and free-basing at Nicole's house.
So I had asked Nicole that evening as to why didn't she come to me earlier than June 8th, that Wednesday, to tell me about it, and she said that she and Faye thought that Faye could handle it.
Q: The free-basing?
A: Right. So Nicole felt pretty distressed about not having brought it to anybody's attention earlier.
Q: And because she was distressed, she hung up on you?
A: No. I thought - yeah. On that Friday night?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: Yeah.
Q: So her stress was in your view caused by what happened to her friend Faye.
A: Right. Right. And she didn't want to get in between the discussions between Faye and I about Francesca.
Q: What did you want to do with Francesca?
A: I was trying to figure out what the best thing would be.
Q: Did you want Nicole to take her?
A: No.
Q: Who did you want to take her?
A: I was contemplating taking her.
Q: Did you take her?
A: Actually, the first few days she went to Paul's house, and so I was trying to figure out a schedule for my work to rearrange it around Francesca's school time so that I could take care of her.
Q: That never eventuated?
A: No.
Q: Is that the only call or contact you had with Nicole on June 10?
A: That Friday, yes. Not - and I didn't talk to her until that Sunday.
Q: Now, on June 11 did you try to get in touch with her?
A: No.
Q: Did you leave her any messages?
A: No.
Q: Did you get any messages?
A: No.
Q: Did you get any messages from O.J. Simpson at all the week before the murder?
A: No.
Q: The week of the murder?
A: No.
Q: Did you have an answering machine at that time?
A: Yeah. I have a phone service. Not a machine at home, but, you know, with the phone company.
Q: What do you mean by that?
A: What do you call it, phone service?
Q: Voice mail?
A: Voice mail, yeah.
Q: So if someone were to call you and leave a message, they could do so on a voice mail and you could pick up that message from anywhere?
A: That's right.
Q: And then save it or erase it?
A Right.
Q: You hadn't had any messages from O.J. Simpson for a long time before the murders. Right?
A: Right.
Q: In fact you can't remember the last time you had a message from him on your voice mail before the murder. Right?
A: Right.
Q: Had you ever?
A: Oh. yeah.
Q: So you made no attempt to contact Nicole on the 11th even though she hung up on you. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And on the 12th did you call her?
A: Which would be the Sunday?
Q: Sunday.
A: No. I believe also it was her calling me, checking on how I was and -
Q: What time did she call?
A: About 5:00, 5:30, right around that time, because she was getting ready - dressed for the recital.
Q: And relate that conversation.
A: She called me to find out again how I was doing and that she felt sorry about having hung up on me that Friday night like that, and she asked whether I saw Faye.
I told her Faye was doing decent, and she said she just wanted to check. She's getting dressed, you know - I could hear on the phone she was kind of hurrying around - to go to the recital, and I said,. "I'll talk to you later. Have fun."
Q: What recital?
A: Of Sydney's.
Q: How did you know about Sydney's recital?
A: Nicole told me about it.
Q: When?
A: That day. She's on the way to recital of Sydney's.
Q: Did you know what she was referring to when she first brought it up? Had you heard about it before?
A: I know that a recital was going to come up in the next few weeks, so when I was - when Nicole told me, then I remembered that there was going to be a recital for Sydney.
Q: Was there any conversation about O.J. Simpson?
A: Yeah, she mentioned that O.J.'s going to be back in town.
Q: What did Nicole tell you about Mr. Simpson in this 5:00 conversation on June 12th?
A: That he's going to be back there later.
Q: Back where?
A: Back in L.A. He's going to be back to come to the recital.
Q: Which was supposed to start momentarily. Right? You said it's 5:00?
A: Right. I don't know exactly what time the recital started.
Q: But she said Mr. Simpson was already in town or was coming into town? What did she say to you?
A: "He's going to be there."
Q: At the recital.
A: Right.
Q: What did that have to do with the rest of the conversation? Anything?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Yeah. "What's happening? What's going on? Who's at the recital? What" -
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You asked, "Who's at the recital?"
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you ask any questions about O.J.?
A: No.
Q: Did you say anything about Paula?
A: No.
Q: Did you say, "Will Paula be there?"
A: No.
Q: Who brought up O.J. Simpson?
A: I think it was when I asked, "Who's gonna be there?" She said, "Well O.J.'s going to come, too." The Fischmans were there, their family's there. It's like when you talk to a friend, "You going to a recital? Who's going to be there, What's up?" and the other person answers.
Q: Did she tell you about what her plans were following the recital?
A: No.
Q: Is that the best you can do in terms of what was said?
A: Yes.
Q: Can't recall anything else?
A: No.
Q: Have you related that conversation to anyone?
A: Yeah. I believe I related to Mr. Pavelick and Mr. Cochran and at some point Dominick.
Q: Now, who was the first person you ever related the O.J. Simpson conversation to on the evening of June 12th, that conversation?
A: I believe it was the first time that I related to anybody was to the two detectives that took my statement a week and a half after the murder.
Q: And the same thing about this other conversation that you just talked about with Nicole?
A: Yeah. So I most likely talked to the two detectives about that call.
Q: Now, was that the last time you ever spoke to Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Was around 5:00 on June 12, 1994?
A: Yeah.
Q: Now, at that moment in time did you know of a single person who you believed wanted to kill her?
A: No.
Q: Or who would have any reason to kill her?
A: No.
Q: As of that moment in time, were you aware of anyone who ever said he or she would kill Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Had anyone ever told you about anybody who said they might want to kill Nicole? Yes or no.
A: Yes.
Q: And who was that?
A: That was Faye.
Q: And who was the person that Faye said would kill Nicole - excuse me. Who was the person that Faye said said he would kill Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Objection.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Can we - do you understand the question?
MR. LEONARD: Vague -
MR. RUBALCAVA: Wait a second.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague and leading, compound.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Okay. Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: I think I understand what Mr. Petrocelli is leading at.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I am sure you do.
A: That's why I say it's not a question that could be answered with yes or
no.
Q: Oh, please try your best.
A: If I answer yes, then it would be construed one way. If it's not -
Q: You don't need to worry how it will be construed because there are lots of very talented lawyers, far more talented than I, who will make sure that it doesn't get misconstrued.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Is Mr. Medvene going to help us there?
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't know. You'll have to ask him.
Q: So answer my question, please. Had anyone ever told you that someone had said that he or she would kill Nicole, as of June 12, 1994?
A: As a figure of speech or as a -
Q: Kidding around, figure of speech, dead serious, in the middle of a confession to a priest, any statement in any context.
A: Kidding around, figure of speech, yes, Faye Resnick told me that O.J. had said to her once he's gonna kill her.
Q: Okay. So the only utterance about someone killing Nicole that you had ever heard in your entire life as of June 12, 1994 was through Faye Resnick that O.J. Simpson said he would kill Nicole. True?
A: No, not necessarily true, because Faye might have said at some point, "I'm going to kill her if she does that." Cora might have said -
Q: I am only talking about what you had heard.
A: Right.
Q: Not what might have happened in the world. I mean, maybe lots of people said things.
A: As I'm recalling the conversations now, yes, that was the only one that distinctively, as you're asking for it, is in my mind.
Q: What is the only one?
A: The phone conversation that Faye had with O.J.
Q: Okay. So Faye had a conversation with O.J. Simpson, and O.J. Simpson told Faye that he was going to kill Nicole, and Faye told that to you, and that's the only one that you were aware of as of June 12. True?
A: Yeah.
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: True?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay.
A: May I expand on that?
Q: Well, we'll get to it. Earlier in your testimony you said that we all know now that it was Kato to whom O.J. was asking about the scores because we all know that Kato was with O.J. at 9:00 p.m. on the evening of June 12. Now, I want to ask you about that. How do you know that to be a fact?
A: Let's put it - let me rephrase it, then. I assumed that it was Kato.
Q: Has anyone ever told you that it was Kato?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever asked O.J. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever say, OJ., when you called me at 9:00 o'clock, who was that person that you asked about for the scores?" Did you ever ask him that question?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever say, "Wait a second. He might be your alibi"?
A: No.
Q: You never thought of asking that question?
A: No, because later I found out that - I heard that Kato went with him to get something to eat, so I assumed it was Kato.
Q: How did you find out that Kato went with him to get something to eat?
A: Well, it's pretty much in the papers.
Q: Had you ever gone out to eat with O.J. Simpson before June 12th?
A: Yeah.
Q: A number of times?
A: Number of times, yeah.
Q: Did you ever go to McDonald's with him?
A: No. I refused.
Q: Did you ever - did he ever insist?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever go to a McDonald's - Withdrawn. You've never gone to McDonald's
with O.J. Simpson, I take it. True?
A: I've taken him to - actually, not a McDonald's. A Burger King, I believe it is.
Q: When was that?
A: Couple of months ago.
Q: Okay. Why did you do that?
A: He wanted to go for a ride. We had some time. I took him down there.
Q: Down where?
A: To a Burger King on Santa Monica Boulevard and Barrington.
Q: Now, did this have anything to do with reconstructing the events of his activities on June 12?
A: No. It was a milk shake run.
Q: And he didn't have anything. Right?
A: He had a milk shake.
Q: Okay. So you never before June 12 went to a McDonald's with O.J. Simpson. Right? Whether or not he ate or you ate, never been to one, even in a drive-through. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: True?
A: Yeah.
Q: Have you ever been to a fast-food restaurant with him?
A: No, I don't believe so.
Q: Had you ever seen O.J. Simpson gulp down a hamburger in a car?
A: No.
Q: Did you know what size shoe O.J. Simpson wore as of June 12th?
A: No idea.
Q: You pay attention to things like that, shoe size, feet size, don't you, as a chiropractor, whether he had big feet, little feet?
MR. RUBALCAVA: He's not a podiatrist.
MR. PETROCELLI: Close enough.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: No?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether he ever owned any Bruno Magli shoes?
A: I have no idea.
Q: No idea one way or the other?
A: Right. I don't check what shoes people wear. I really don't know.
Q: You might not check, but you might know anyway. Someone might tell you. "Hey, look at these Brunos," you know.
A: No.
Q: So you have no knowledge or information about his shoes. Right?
A: No.
Q: You saw the shoes that were worn - excuse me. You saw the shoes that were depicted at trial to be the Bruno Magli shoes?
A: No.
Q: You didn't see those?
A: No.
Q: You wouldn't know what they looked like?
A: No.
Q: You saw those gloves that the prosecutor contended were the gloves of O.J. Simpson, the murder gloves?
A: Yeah. I just saw - I flipped on the television about it.
Q: And did you know one way or the other whether they were O.J. Simpson's gloves?
A: No.
Q: So they could have been, but you wouldn't know. Right?
A: Right, exactly.
Q: In this conversation with Paul Resnick, did you and he discuss anything about O.J. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: 10:00 o'clock on the morning of June 13?
A: No.
Q: Nothing?
A: No.
Q: His name didn't come up?
A: Not at all. In fact, Paul was very worried that this was a drug-related situation. That was the gist of his focus: "Do we have to get Faye out of town?"
Q: Weren't you concerned for your friend, Mr. Simpson, whose wife had just been murdered - or his ex-wife?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you ask. "Does O.J. know?" That didn't even come up?
A: No.
Q: Or, "What about his children?" None of that came up?
A: No.
Q: Did the thought cross your mind, by the way, that he might be responsible for this, in that conversation when you first heard about Nicole's death?
A: Not at all. The -
Q: Did it cross your mind but you immediately excluded it?
A: No it never even crossed my mind, but the immediate attention was that if this is a drug hit, then does Faye have to leave town.
Q: When you heard about the death of Nicole, did you hear about how the death occurred?
A: No.
Q: Did you hear about there was another person involved?
A: No, not until later that day.
Q: What did you hear later that day?
A: I think I was driving to my office in Malibu and I listened to the news, and it was that Nicole and a young man had been murdered.
Q: And when was it that you first found out the name of that young man?
A: I don't recall.
Q: When you first heard that it was a man named Ron Goldman, did that name mean anything to you?
A: No.
Q: Had you ever heard that name before?
A: No
Q: Had you ever seen anybody who bore the resemblance of the person whose pictures you saw as Ron Goldman?
A: No. No.
Q: And looking back now, do you know whether you've ever seen Ron Goldman while he was alive?
A: I doubt it.
Q: And Faye never mentioned him to you?
A: No.
Q: Or Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Or anybody. Is that right?
A: Yeah, that's right.
Q: Now, when you heard that Nicole had been killed, other than drive off to your office in Malibu, did you do anything?
A: Yeah.
Q: Excuse me?
A: Yeah.
Q: What did do you?
A: I called the Exodus Rehab Center and related to the head of the center that I talked to - I asked him for advice. I asked him what to do.
Q: What did he say?
A: I asked him whether I should come down there and to talk to Faye, and he said, "Well, we're the professionals here, so let us handle it." He took down my phone number where I was gonna be, and he asked me to be available for him.
Q: Did he already know about Nicole's death?
A: No. I told him.
Q: Did you expect that he then would inform Faye?
A: Right.
Q: Were you going to be there when Faye was told?
A: Well, he said they're going to talk to her, being the professionals there, and I said, "Well, I'll keep myself available for" -
Q: What did you tell this person? First of all, what is the name of this person?
A: I don't remember right now.
Q: What did you tell this person about the way that Nicole had been killed?
A: I just said that Nicole had been killed, because that's all I knew.
Q: But you knew it wasn't a car accident. Right? You knew it was a murder. Right?
A: Yeah, Paul said that she was murdered at her house. So that was it.
Q: You didn't know if it was a gunshot, a knife wound or whatever. Right?
A: No, I had no idea.
Q: So you didn't pass any information on to this person. Right?
A: No. His name was Albert.
Q: Albert. What did you do then after your call with Albert?
A: I went to my office in Malibu.
Q: And then what was your next contact regarding this situation?
A: I think my next contact was that later that afternoon - later that evening I went to Exodus.
Q: Had you spoken to anyone in between?
A: No.
Q: Had you gained any additional information?
A: No.
Q: Had you learned that O.J. Simpson was a suspect?
A: No, not at that time.
Q: Now, when you went to Exodus, did you see Faye?
A: Right.
Q: Did you see her alone?
A: Was I alone in the room with her?
Q: Yes.
A: Briefly.
Q: Did you go with anyone?
A: No. I went by myself.
Q: Did you bring Francesca?
A: No. Francesca was at Paul's. We had arranged - Paul and I had arranged for him to pick up Francesca at school.
Q: When? The end of the school day?
A: Right.
Q: Paul called you in the morning. Right?
A: Right.
Q: So I take it, then, that neither you nor Paul thought there was any threat to Francesca's security such that she had to be removed from school. True?
A: Right.
Q: And Francesca remained with Paul the remaining - the ensuing days?
A: Right.
Q: When you went to Exodus, did you first before seeing Faye talk to anyone about whether Faye had been informed of Nicole's death?
A: Yeah, I went to see Albert first.
Q: And what did Albert say to you?
A: Albert said that Faye basically freaked out.
Q: Did Albert tell you what Faye had said when informed of Nicole's death?
A: No. He was - he said that she was running through the center screaming, yelling.
Q: Did Albert tell you that Faye had said anything about O.J. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Did Albert tell you that Faye had immediately said when told of Nicole's death, "O.J. did it. OJ. killed her. He said he would and he did"?
A: No. Faye said that later to me.
Q: Do you believe Faye made that up?
A: Yeah, I do. Hold on. Let me clarify. That she made up what?
Q: Do you believe that Faye made up the fact that she, when told of Nicole's death, immediately told the counselors who informed her that "OJ. Simpson did it"-
MR.LEONARD: Object -
BY MR.PETROCELLI:
Q: - "he said he would and he did"? Do you believe she made that up?
MR. LEONARD: Object to the form of the question.
THE WITNESS: I believe that Faye was very paranoid at the time, and I think that -
BY MR.PETROCELLI:
Q: That's not my question. My question is: Regardless of whatever motives you might ascribe to Faye or why she may do something, my question is simply whether you believe that Faye actually said to the counselors, when told of Nicole's death, "O.J. did it."
A: Yeah, if -
Q: Do you believe that?
MR.LEONARD: Object. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: If - how do I say that. If the counselors at this point say that that's what she said, then chances are that that's what she said.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. That's what I'm asking you.
A: Yeah.
Q: You don't have any reason to believe that that did not occur if everyone said it occurred. Right?
A: Right.
Q: When you talked to Faye and - well, when you spoke to Faye, did you already know by that time that O.J. Simpson was a suspect?
A: No.
Q: Did you know anything at all about O.J. Simpson's involvement in this in terms of whether the police were looking for him or even talking to him or questioning him, or had you seen him on television, anything?
A: I don't believe so because I went straight from my of office down to Exodus, so -
Q: What time did you get to Exodus?
A: Oh, about 7:00 o'clock.
Q: In the evening?
A: In the evening.
Q: And you had heard no reports about O.J. Simpson by then?
A: I went from my office in the morning to the office, saw my patients and drove down to Exodus. I don't listen to the radio during the day. I don't stop and buy a paper or -
Q: Your patients didn't talk to you about it?
A: No.
Q: When you spoke to Faye, did she say anything to you about O.J. Simpson?
A: She said that she believes that O.J. killed Nicole.
Q: She was still upset when you saw her. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And it was just the two of you alone?
A: Actually we were sitting out in the courtyard because Faye, she was extremely frantic.
Q: And when she said that she thought O.J. Simpson killed Nicole, what did you say?
A: I said, "Well, what makes you think that?" You know, I tried to stay calm and relaxed and tried to accommodate her franticness.
Q: Now, was her statement to you that O.J. Simpson killed Nicole the first time that that thought had ever entered your mind: When someone else had mentioned it to you?
A: Right.
Q: And that was the first person who mentioned it?
A: Right.
Q: What did you say to her?
A: I tried to comfort her. I didn't believe it. I did not believe it. It wasn't even in my mind right now who did what. It was like there's this woman who is absolutely frantic. How do we take care of that right now.
Q: And I think you said a moment ago that you asked her, "Why do you think that?"
A: Right.
Q: And what did she say to you?
A: She said, "I think he did it. I think O.J. did it." And I said, "What makes you think that?" You know, it's like what - try to kind of - instead of her being all frantic, to try to draw out -
Q: And what did she say?
A: And she said, "Well, he told me on the phone once."
Q: Told her what?
A: That he's gonna kill her.
Q: And what did you say?
A: Well, I said, you know, 'That conversation was not the way that it happened, that you're perceiving it, and relax and try to get some sleep," and just try to mellow her out.
Q: Were you able to?
A: No. No way. What people don't understand, if somebody is four days into drug rehab, you know. they're not calm.
Q: Did you and she have any conversation then about any details or information concerning Nicole's activities on the 12th or the 11th or O.J. Simpson's activities, any conversation about that?
A: No. It wasn't really possible to have a conversation with her.
Q: Did she ask you whether you had talked to Mr. Simpson?
A: What was it?
Q: Did she ask you whether you had spoken to -
A: No.
Q: - Mr. Simpson? After you left her - How long were you with her?
A: About half an hour, 45 minutes.
Q: Did you talk about Francesca?
A: Yeah, I mentioned to her that I had talked to Paul, that Francesca is taken care of, that Francesca is at Paul's house.
Q: Did you tell her that Paul Resnick had said this might be a drug hit?
A: I mentioned it to her the day later.
Q: Not that day.
A: Not that day.
Q: The next time you spoke to her was the next day?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you ask her any questions the first day - this is the evening of the 13th - about drug people?
A: No.
Q: After you left the Exodus treatment center, did you do anything else the remainder of that evening concerning -
A: Just went home.
Q: Did you talk to anyone?
A: I don't think I talked to anyone. I was shocked. I was just -
Q: Did you call the Brown family?
A: No.
Q: Had you called the Simpson family?
A: No. I think - I believe I talked to Kris Jenner.
Q: When?
A: That evening.
Q: That evening?
A: That evening, yeah.
Q: Did Kris tell you that O.J. Simpson was a suspect or that the cops were questioning him?
A: No. When I come home, I turned on the television to listen to the news.
Q: And what did you hear?
A: That the police - that O.J. was down at the police station for an interview.
Q: Now, did that shock you?
A: No.
Q: It didn't shock you that this person was being questioned for his involvement in the death of Nicole?
A: I don't believe that that day it was questioned of his involvement. I believe he was questioned whether he knew anything.
Q: I see. So you still had no idea that he was a suspect.
A: Right.
Q: And then you went to bed?
A: Yeah.
Q: By the way, didn't Kris Jenner tell you that he was a suspect?
A: I don't believe at that time anybody thought he was a suspect.
Q: She didn't say anything to you about that in that conversation?
A: No. Actually, in fact, if anything, over the next day or two after the murder Kris Jenner, Bruce Jenner, me, we thought that it was a drug hit, because they were asking, "Is Faye safe where she's at?" They were talking about could this possibly be a drug hit.
Q: Did you pick up the phone to tell the police that you thought that Nicole's killer was drug related?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any information, any evidence,. anything at all to indicate that Nicole's killing might have been drug related?
A: Just the fact that, you know, Faye had been involved in drug use at Nicole's house and knew Faye didn't have any money at the time. When Nicole told me that Faye had been free-basing at her house, to me, I went, "Oh my God, where did she get the money for that? How long had she been doing this? Three months, or two and a half months? How did she afford that?" You know, to me the question was, if this has been going on for this time, what are the implications that now Nicole is dead. Who could have had possibly any interest in -
Q: Why would you in any way connect up Faye Resnick owing drug lords money to Nicole's death?
A: Well, I think it's a pretty sensible thought process when you're standing there, you just brought the lady that you're seeing into a rehab center, like I said, all those different things are going on in your head, that the woman - the person that was the friend that she had stayed with over the last X number of months gets found killed -
Q: Why wouldn't the person killed have been Faye Resnick? Why Nicole?
A: Because Faye was in rehab.
Q: But they could have killed Faye on June 8 or June 7 or June 6 or May 31 or -
A: Yeah, they could have.
Q: - or any time.
A: Could have.
Q: But what I don't understand about your thought process is: What did any of that have to do with Nicole?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. You are asking him to speculate.
THE WITNESS: That's the question, you know, but in the moment -
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Faye Resnick also stayed with you during this three-month period. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And you were not killed.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I was extremely worried after that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: She also stayed with [Name Deleted] for a night or two. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And [Name Deleted] wasn't killed.
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: But she wasn't spending four or five nights a week at either place. She was spending four or five nights a week at Nicole's house and -
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you found out how Nicole was killed, that she had been brutally stabbed and slashed, did you still think it was a drug hit at that time?
A: That's what made me even consider it more.
Q: And why is that?
A: Just because of the - to me that was the only option. To me it was much more - it was the only option that I could think about: Why would anybody do that.
Q: You mean your thought process was that Nicole was brutally slashed and stabbed by an assailant with a knife who mistakenly believed that person being killed was Faye?
A: No. Because in the two-month period of time Nicole and Faye had been going out a lot; Nicole had been drinking a lot; the two girls were out a lot. So we didn't know, especially then after Nicole had come and told me about Faye's drug use, actually free-basing at her house, then I all of a sudden realized that, you know, this was not prescription medication, as Faye had led me to believe all along. Faye was back smoking.
Q: At any point in time had you acquired any information that Nicole gave money to drug people for drugs?
A: No.
Q: At any point in time had you come across any information that Nicole herself had any contact with any person who sold drugs?
A: No.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Can we take a break? We've been going for a little bit. The reporter, I am sure, is tired. I need to make a phone call to my office.
MR. PETROCELLI: Fine.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Thank you.
(Recess.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Getting back to the conversation you had with Faye at Exodus on the evening of June 13, did you and she discuss that Francesca was okay?
A: Right. I let her know that Francesca is with Paul.
Q: And that she was safe and secure?
A: Yeah.
Q: Was Faye concerned about that?
A: No.
Q: Did she ask about Francesca?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell her about Francesca?
A: I tried to give her information to calm her down.
Q: Okay. Did you tell her you would be back to see her?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, at this point in time you and she were still together. Right?
A: I felt that having brought her to the rehab center for the second time and paid for the rehabilitation, that I had done my due diligence for that relationship, and that was it for me.
In fact, the day - the Saturday - the first Saturday that she was in rehab in a group session, one of the counselors engaged Faye and I in a conversation, and we agreed that that's it.
Q: Before you took Faye to the rehab center, had you and she discussed splitting up?
A: Yes.
Q: And had you officially split up?
A: No, but we had started to live very, very separate lives.
Q: Her primary residence was still with you. Right?
A: Approximately a week or so before, she basically took a bunch of her things to Nicole's house, before the intervention.
Q: And had she returned to your house?
A: Throughout the day when I was at work.
Q: She would come -
A: She would come in the day, do some things, get some things, and then in the evening when I was home, she wasn't there.
Q: When was the last time she slept at your home before Nicole's death?
A: I think it was the night of the intervention.
Q: June 9?
A: June 9, a Wednesday.
Q: Before June 9 when was the last time?
A: I believe it was Friday - Thursday or Friday the week before, which would be -
Q: Why don't you use the calendar.
A: That would be the 2nd or the 3rd of June.
Q: And before then when was the last time she slept there?
A: Probably the days before there - before then.
Q: So the days that she didn't sleep at the house when she moved out, so to speak, were between June -
A: 2nd.
Q: - 3 and June 9. Right?
A: Right.
Q: So a period of about five days.
A: Right. That's when I asked her to not be there when I'm there.
Q: And then June 8 she slept at your place?
A: Right.
Q: And then June 9 you took her to Exodus. Right?
A: Right. She was going to stay - I was going to leave out of town June 8th to go on a trip for four days, and she was going to stay at the house during that period of time.
Q: June 8 to what?
A: 8th through the 12th.
Q: You didn't take that trip?
A: No
Q: Because of her going into Exodus?
A: Right.
Q: Was that a business trip?
A: No. Motorcycle trip.
Q: Motorcycle trip?
A: (Nods head.)
Q: Every year that time of year?
A: Yeah.
MR. RUBALCAVA: That exact weekend.
MR. PETROCELLI: That exact -
MR. RUBALCAVA: That exact weekend.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
Q: Okay. So this was a big event for you to miss.
A: Definitely.
Q: What did you do the next day, on the 14th?
A: Tuesday. I was going to visit Faye in the morning. I worked in the afternoons from about 1:00 until 7:00, so that's when I would see patients, and I would - probably went to see Faye the Tuesday morning because that Tuesday evening I went to an Al-Anon meeting, as per the suggestion of Albert who heads the Exodus center.
Q: And when you saw Faye in the morning, did you spend some time with her?
A: I probably brought her some things, but probably didn't spend a lot of time with her.
Q: Was there any discussion about Nicole's death?
A: I don't really recall that day very much.
Q: And by that time did you know that O.J. Simpson was a suspect?
A: I knew that at that time that he was called in to talk on that Monday afternoon, but I don't recall whether he was a suspect or not.
Q: Had you spoken to any member of his family?
A: No.
Q: Or the Brown family?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And after you met Faye in the morning, what did you do in relation to Nicole's death?
A: Went to work and went to the meeting.
Q: And that evening?
A: After the meeting'
Q: Yes.
A: Just probably went home.
Q: And the next day is the 15th.
A: The next day is the 15th. I see patients in the morning, had a appointment with a patient -
Q: You are looking at your calendar, for the record -
A: Right.
Q: - Exhibit 168. Continue.
A: Right. Talked to my cousin later that afternoon.
Q: Who is your cousin?
A: Christa Oetjen, O-e-t-j-e-n.
Q: And what is her phone number?
A: [Deleted telephone number]
Q: She works in Los Angeles and lives here?
A: Right.
Q: Did you discuss with her anything about O.J. Simpson?
A: I certainly did. yeah.
Q: What did you say?
A: I talked to her about Nicole's death and I talked to her about Faye being in rehab, you know, just trying to relate some of my thoughts to her.
Q: Now, by this time did you know that O.J. was a suspect?
A: It's really difficult for me to discern what point I became aware that the police considered him a suspect.
Q: When is that point?
A: I think it probably was in the day before the funeral.
Q: What was it? Just a media report?
A: Yeah.
Q: Now, when you heard that - Well, let me back up again. Finish off what you did in relation to Mr. Simpson on the 15th.
A: Actually, I was going to a concert that evening, but I didn't go.
Q: Did you talk to any of Nicole's friends? Cora Fischman, Cici Shahian?
A: Probably Kris Jenner - Kris Jenner and Bruce Jenner were probably the only two people that I talked to about this case in that time.
Q: Okay.
A: Might have briefly talked to Paul about Francesca, called over to Paul's house about Francesca, but that's it.
Q: Was anybody developing any information to support this idea of yours that this was a drug hit?
A: Well, I think in those days still Kris, Bruce, Paul, everybody thought that that's - that was what happened.
Q: But there was no information to support that. True?
A: No.
Q: True?
A: Yeah.
Q: Before the break I was asking you some questions about contacts Nicole had with people involved in drugs, and you were not aware of any. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Prior to June 12 -Withdrawn. Have you become aware of any information that Nicole herself was free-basing?
A: Nicole-free-basing, no. Nicole admitted in the intervention that she had used cocaine with Faye at a couple opportunities, couple times.
Q: But no free-basing.
A: No free-basing. And the word ''free-basing'' wasn't specifically used.
Q: Now, at the intervention did it come up that Faye had been free-basing?
A: Yeah.
Q: And the purpose of the intervention was to intervene in Faye's life and try to get her some help. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And in that vein, she was confronted by you and her friends, including Nicole, to urge her to do so. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And her drug use was discussed, and she was forced to admit it. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And you got her to admit that she had been free-basing?
A: Right.
Q: Since how long?
A: Nicole admitted in that intervention that it had been about three days before the trip to Cabo, which was Easter.
Q: Give me the dates of the Cabo trip from looking at Exhibit 168, your calendar.
A: April 1 - I went April 1 through the 4th, '94.
Q: And when did Faye go to Cabo?
A: I think Nicole, Faye and the kids left the day before me.
Q: So 3-31?
A: Right.
Q: And when did they return?
A: They returned the - I believe the 8th.
Q: Okay. And in the intervention Nicole said that Faye's free-basing began when?
A: Three days before their trip to Cabo.
Q: So around March 28th?
A: Around March 28, yes.
Q: And continued through the date of the intervention, which was June 7th. Right?
A: 8th.
Q: Excuse me. June 8th.
A: Yeah.
Q: Now, did she - did Nicole indicate how frequently Faye was free-basing?
A: No. She didn't say whether it was a daily thing, but she had contacted Faye's ex-husband, Paul Resnick, who contacted me on Wednesday, the 8th, and to have a meeting with him and Nicole on Wednesday, the 8th, in the evening, and in that meeting Nicole, like I said, was very distressed on how Faye had degenerated and that the free-basing has become a big problem.
Q: But no indication was made how often she would free-base?
A: No.
Q: And in what quantities.
A: No.
Q: Was there any other drug use described besides free-basing?
A: No.
Q: What about Faye's taking of pills?
A: No, that - well, I brought up that part; Nicole didn't bring up that part, because I was under the impression that Faye in those weeks - actually two months had been using prescription medication since her surgery -
Q: Which was?
A: Which was March 18th.
Q: Surgery for what?
A: Breast augmentation.
Q: Who performed that surgery? Do you know?
A: Koplin, Dr. Koplin, Larry Koplin.
Q: And what kind of medication was Faye taking following the breast surgery?
A: Pain medication.
Q: What was the type of medication?
A: I don't know the name of the medication, but I know that later I found vials of Percodan, Valium prescribed, and I had found some vials at the house.
Q: After she left?
A: No. Before she left.
Q: Percodan, Valium.
A: Fiorinals.
Q: Was there any discussion at the intervention of how much, if any, of these pills Faye was taking?
A: No.
Q: And was there any discussion of her doing anything else?
A: No.
Q: And did Nicole say that she had been doing drugs?
A: She had - Faye said that she will only admit to go to a rehab center if Nicole would go also, and Faye had asked Nicole to go for alcohol, and when confronted with the - basically what Faye did is she tried to blame everybody else in the room and she said, "Well, Nicole, you've done it with me." And Nicole said, "Well, I've only snorted" - "I've only used it a couple times with you."
Q: Used cocaine?
A: Right.
Q: Couple of times.
A: Couple of times.
Q: Over what period of time?
A: Over those months.
Q: How do you know it was those months?
A: That was the inferring.
Q: But she didn't say it was in those months.
A: No. No.
Q: So Nicole said. "I've only used cocaine a couple of times with you."
A: Right.
Q: Correct?
A: Right.
Q: And was there a discussion of any other drug use by Nicole?
A: No.
Q: And was there discussion of alcohol use by Nicole?
A: Yeah.
Q: At the intervention?
A: At the intervention.
Q: And what was said in that regard?
A: That Nicole was drinking way too much in the last three months, four months.
Q: Who said that?
A: Faye did.
Q: What did Nicole say about that?
A: She said, "You're right."
Q: Did either Nicole or Faye indicate how much Nicole was drinking?
A: No.
Q: And how often?
A: It was just discussed that Nicole was drinking a lot of tequila when they were going out.
Q: A lot of tequila?
A: (Nods head.)
Q: You're shaking your head.
A: Yeah, a lot of tequila.
Q: You understand the reporter can't pick up a shake of the head, only audible sounds.
A: Great. Okay.
Q: At the intervention was there any discussion of how much money had been spent to acquire the drugs that Faye was using?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask?
A: No.
Q: Was there any statement or discussion at the intervention that Faye had borrowed money to acquire drugs?
A: No.
Q: Or that Nicole had?
A: No.
Q: Or that anybody had incurred financial burdens to acquire drugs?
A: No.
Q: Was there any discussion that Faye had gotten in trouble by meeting up with undesirable types in connection with her drug activity?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask where Faye got the drugs?
A: No, never asked her.
Q: Was there any discussion about the source of the drugs?
A: No.
Q: Now let's focus on the time period of March, April, May and June before Faye went into rehabilitation on June 9. How many times had you yourself witnessed Faye using drugs?
A: Never.
Q: How many times had you witnessed her drunk from alcohol consumption in those - in that period of time?
A: Specifically being drunk, drunk or high, or just specifically alcohol?
Q: Intoxicated.
A: In general, whether it's alcohol, drugs?
Q: Well, I asked you how many times you had seen her take drugs. You said none.
A: I didn't see her using it, but I've seen her high almost every day during that period of time. There were only two or three days in between where she was not obviously high.
Q: Now, did her daughter live with you then?
A: Yeah.
Q: When you said you saw her high every day, you didn't know whether it was from drugs or alcohol. True?
A: I assumed it was from the medication from the - still from the surgery.
Q: So you didn't think she was abusing drugs; you thought she was using drugs for pain or for other purposes related to her surgery. Right?
MR. LEONARD: Object as leading.
THE WITNESS: No, I - for an addict even a drop of alcohol is abusing it. So if an addict like Faye takes half a glass of wine, she gets pretty drunk. If that is done in addition to one pain pill, she's out there. She slurs her speech. She can't walk. She falls over. She - you know, cigarettes burning all over the house.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: But you didn't think she was incapable of going on a vacation with you, for example. Correct?
A: Well, actually, part of - we had a discussion. We were at a dinner, Nicole, O.J., Faye and I, about a week before going on the trip to Cabo - actually 10 days before going to Cabo, and Faye was- had taken some pills at home, and she went to the dinner and she ordered some wine, and I said to her, "Don t have the wine because you just took the medications," which was basically about two weeks or so after the surgery.
Q: Well, the surgery was March 18th.
A: Right.
Q: 10 days before the Cabo trip is March 21. So this sounds about a day or two after the surgery, not two weeks after. True?
A: Right, yeah.
Q: Okay.
A: But we had this - we had this dinner, and we were talking about that Faye is going to be down in Cabo with us, and we don't want her to be high on drugs down in Mexico, so we asked her to really slow down on taking pills as much as she can and definitely not drinking. So -
Q: But you went with her.
A: Right.
Q: And you didn't tell her she couldn't go.
A: Right.
Q: And you didn't, when you got back, prevent her from driving. Right?
A: Yes, actually on a few occasions I did.
Q: But for the most part she was driving.
A: Right.
Q: And you knew so.
A: Right.
Q: And she was picking up Francesca from school.
A: Right.
Q: And doing her activities. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: And nothing happened to Francesca. Right?
A: No.
Q: And there were no car accidents, right, during this period of time?
A: Right.
Q: And there was no physical injury that occurred to Faye as a result of drug use or alcohol use. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And she was going about her daily chores. Right?
A: If you consider staying at home doing her daily chore, because she couldn't move and didn't do much, then yeah.
Q: Well, she took care of her daughter. Right?
A: Well, more or less. I mean, they had a housekeeper. The housekeeper took care -
Q: You didn't have the daughter taken away, for example. Right?
A: No, but I took her daughter - I woke up her daughter in the morning; I dressed her; I got her to school; I made her lunch; I arranged for somebody to pick up Francesca from school and -
Q: Are you saying that Faye didn't do any of that for three months?
A: Very little.
Q: She didn't pick up her daughter once or -
A: No, she picked up her daughter periodically, but I think it was very trying for her to -
Q: But not trying enough to have her admitted.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Right?
A: I talked to her many times about going back to meetings, seeing her counselor, getting back on track many times.
Q: But you didn't have her put into a treatment center.
A: No, because at that -
Q: And you cared for her. Right?
A: Well, at that time I had, like I said, made up my mind that this is not a healthy relationship for me, so I started really detaching. This was at a time when O.J. and I were talking a lot about these are not - he was not in a healthy relationship; I was not in a healthy relationship; Ron was not in a healthy relationship -
Q: You are not referring to the time period before Cabo now when you were talking with Mr. Simpson about his having an unhealthy relationship, are you?
A: I think it actually started in this - right around that time.
Q: What does that mean, "right around that time"? Before Cabo? After Cabo? During Cabo?
A: Both.
Q: Both what?
A: Before - just briefly before Cabo.
Q: So O.J. Simpson before the Cabo trip told you that he thought he was in an unhealthy relationship.
A: Right.
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And during the Cabo trip, when you and he were down there, you discussed the same thing?
A: Well, there were great days and there were wonderful days, and there were days when something would happen and -
Q: Well, there were only four days. We're only talking April 1 to April 4. So when you say "there were great days" and there were bad days -
A: Right, exactly.
Q: - you have four days. Right?
A: Right. On the trip. On the trip, those immediate days. I mean, the whole time period probably starting, yeah, just before the Cabo trip.
Q: Okay. Just before the Cabo trip -
A: Perhaps it would help, at this dinner -
Q: What dinner?
A: The dinner where we -
Q: On March 21st?
A: Right, around that time.
Q: Okay. Proceed.
A: There were a lot of - there was a lot of activity happening in the sense of it was discussed that Nicole and O.J. wanted to go away somewhere for Easter, okay, and then Nicole said she wants to have Faye and me and Francesca with us.
We decided to go to Mexico. All of a sudden Kris Jenner and Bruce Jenner wanted to come along, too. All of a sudden Nicole said, "I don't want them to go." So O.J. was sitting there, having organized the house in Cabo, and Nicole now saying she doesn't want to go because the Jenners want to go, and it was getting confusing.
And so O.J. realized, and again I realized, that this is getting very complicated and that the people were making things much more complicated than they needed to be. So he started figuring out, my God, this is not the way that we would like to have - that he
would like to have a relationship, the way that I would like to have a relationship, and it deteriorated significantly after the Cabo trip.
So in that time period. you know, it started out with he realizing that something's not right in the relationship, and it slowly degenerates.
So what O.J. and I and Ron were doing, we were talking to each other about how to handle it, what to do, hang in there, just keep communication open and all that stuff.
Q: Getting back to Faye's activities did you see her consume excessive alcohol during the months of March, April, May and June?
A: Again, for her one drink is excessive.
Q: Did you see her consume at any time more than one drink?
A: Yes.
Q: On how many occasions?
A: Particularly down in Cabo she was drinking quite a few margaritas.
Q: After Cabo did you ever have occasion to see her drink more than one drink at a time?
A: At my birthday party.
Q: Which was when?
A: April 30th.
Q: Where was that?
A: At my house.
Q: And did she have a lot to drink that night?
A: Yeah.
Q: How many drinks?
A: I don't know, but she was - I didn't count how many drinks she had, but she was definitely high that night.
Q: So any other occasions when you saw her drink more than one drink besides your birthday party after Cabo?
A: I think that was it.
Q: And you have no knowledge as to what quantity, if any, of prescription medication she was taking. Right?
A: No.
Q: Do you know where she got her medication?
A: When I found the vials, I asked her who the doctors had been that gave her the medication because I didn't recognize the names, and they were different doctors where she had gotten her medications, prescription medications, in the past.
Q: And what did she tell you?
A: That's what she said. "I went to my dentist and" -
Q: And didn't give you any names?
A: Yeah, she gave me names, but I forgot the names. They were actually written on the label, you know, but I don't remember.
Q: Did you see O.J. Simpson use cocaine, ever?
A: Never.
Q: You ever see him take any drugs?
A: No.
Q: Never saw him use cocaine at the Harley-Davidson Cafe opening?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever used cocaine?
A: Last time in 1981.
Q: Not since 1981?
A: No.
Q: Have you used any illegal drugs since 1981?
A: No.
Q: And you're not - Have you learned from any source that O.J. Simpson has used illegal drugs?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you ever asked him?
A: No.
Q: Does he have bottles of pills at his house that are multicolored?
A: No.
Q: Have you heard that he does?
A: I heard Faye write or saw written in Faye's book, but I think Faye wrote in her book that this was on the coffee table in his living room, and that's absolute nonsense.
Q: Is it someplace else?
A: No. I never saw it.
Q: You never saw it?
A: No. That's...
Q: And you never saw Nicole take any drugs either.
A: No.
Q: Have you seen Cora Fischman at all since O.J. Simpson's release from prison?
A: Yes.
Q: On how many occasions?
A: Probably three, four times.
Q: And where have you seen Cora Fischman?
A: At Starbucks in Brentwood.
Q: Anywhere else?
A: I saw her once at O.J.'s house, and I've seen her - actually, she's recently come into my office to be treated.
Q: Who was present at O.J. Simpson's house when Cora Fischman was there and you were there?
A: O.J., Cora and again Gigi, the housekeeper, me.
Q: Did you talk about this situation at all, the lawsuit, the case?
A: Actually, no. I stopped in, said hello, and I had to go to the office, so she was there - I was with her there for a couple minutes.
Q: Why did you stop in?
A: Just to say hello.
Q: Have you traveled anywhere with Mr. Simpson other than Santa Barbara?
A: Since his release?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Have you been to any - So the only place you've been with him is Santa Barbara and Rockingham? Nowhere else?
A: At Nancy and Mark's home one evening here in L.A.
Q: Anyplace else?
MR. LEONARD: Burger King.
THE WITNESS: The Burger King.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: The milk shake run. Right?
A: The milk shake run. And Nancy has a shop at the Beverly Connection.
Q: What's the name of the shop?
A: I don't recall. It's like a designer place. And went to a restaurant next door.
Q: Who was present at the - did you say the Steinmans?
A: I don't recall their last - I don't know their last name.
Q: Who was present there?
A: Barbara, a man that builds cars, Suburbans, out of someplace in San Jose, Mark and Nancy, Rachel, and another couple that I didn't talk with very much, and their housekeeper.
Q: Have you spoken to Paula Barbieri at all since O.J.'s release from jail?
A: No.
Q: While he was in jail?
A: Yeah
Q: When?
A: Pretty early on that one day I was at the jail, and I gave her a ride back. That's it.
Q: Did you talk to her about her knowledge of what had happened?
A: No.
Q: When did Mr. Simpson - Well, let me back up. Before the Cabo trip, you said that O.J. said things indicating that he was having an unhealthy relationship with Nicole. When is the first time you can remember him making such a comment to you before the Cabo trip?
A: Just about that time.
Q: Now, you understood he was trying to reconcile with Nicole?
A: Right.
Q: And he had been trying for the past year?
A: Right.
Q: Correct?
A: They had both been trying. yeah.
Q: And during that entire year had he ever said anything to you about the progress of the relationship?
A: There were a couple incidences where they proved to be difficult for both of them. I think. One incidence was the incidence at a sushi bar, and the other incidence was at Christmas.
Q: Christmas 1993?
A: '93, yeah.
Q: The California Sushi Bar was when?
A: Was in the fall of '93.
Q: You also went back to the opening of the Harley-Davidson Cafe. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And was there an incident there, a quarrel between Nicole and O.J. Simpson?
A: No. They were actually very happy. I was only there for a day and a half.
Q: And you saw no tension or conflict or fighting or arguments. Right?
A: No. On the contrary, the time that I was there, they seemed really happy.
Q: Before I get to these two incidents - I guess I haven't done this - let me ask you a couple of background questions.
Q: When did you first become friendly with Mr. Simpson?
A: Early summer '93.
Q: When did you first meet him?
A: Around that time. I don't know the specific date.
Q: When did you meet Faye Resnick?
A: Fall of 1990.
Q: When did you start to date her?
A: Fall of 1990.
Q: And when did you become engaged to her?
A: Engaged?
Q: To marry her.
A: Actually not engaged to marry her, but engaged to give her a sense of security, was in December '93, Christmas '93.
Q: Were you ever engaged to marry her?
A: The way that it was - that I brought it forward to her is she wanted to marry me, and I said, "There's no way that I will marry you unless you start addressing your problems," and then she says that she doesn't feel secure to be able to have the stamina to address her problems, so I said, 'Then let s do this: As a token of me coming a step forward, I'll give you an engagement ring, but I will only consider getting into a marriage situation if for a period of a year, year and a half you've been in meetings, you've been holding a job and you've been getting your life together." So that was the gist of the engagement.
Q: You meant that when you said that?
A: Oh, absolutely, yeah.
Q: So from fall of 1990 to December of 1993 you were dating Faye?
A: Right.
Q: But not living with her?
A: First dating. Then she moved in - she moved out of her husband's house -
Q: Mr. Resnick?
A: Mr. Resnick's. Then she got her own place, and she moved in I think in November '92. I think it was.
Q: Into your home.
A: Right.
Q: And she lived there until after the - after Exodus. Right?
A: No. There was a time when we were broken up.
Q: When was that?
A: That was - no, actually I believe when she moved in was November '91.
Q: '91.
A: And then she was there until November '92 or October '92. We broke up. She had her own place, and she moved back in May '93.
Q: And during the time that you knew her, from the fall of '90 until the first time she moved in in November of '91, was she in any treatment programs for drug or alcohol use?
A: No.
Q: And what about from thereafter?
A: Yeah, I would -
Q: After November of '91.
A: I took her to Betty Ford Clinic in I believe it was the spring of '92. Yeah, '92.
Q: For what problem?
A: For free-base cocaine.
Q: And how long was she at Betty Ford?
A: Three weeks.
Q: Now, when she came out of Betty Ford, she lived at her own place for a while; then moved in with you in May of '93?
A: Actually when she came out of Betty Ford, she was staying at my place again until later that year -
Q: Oh, I see. Until October of '92.
A: Right.
Q: Now, after Betty Ford, spring of '92, did she have any relapses?
A: Yeah.
Q: When?
A: Which actually led to the breakup in the fall of -
Q: '92.
A: So about -
Q: Did she get any treatment?
A: No.
Q: How long did that relapse last?
A: You know, there was a time when I just didn't see her because she had relapsed, and then she and I started talking again in January '93.
Q: January '93. And from January to May of '93 there was no relapse. Correct?
A: I believe that in the time she was actually trying to get a handle on her life.
Q: And she moved in in May of '93?
A: Right.
Q: And from May of '93 until her surgery no treatments?
A: No treatments and no meetings -
Q: And no relapses?
A: Well, there was periodic times where she would drink and have a couple of days of taking pills and going back out of that again and be able to last for three, four weeks and then have another three, four days of relapsing, but no concentrated treatment effort.
Q: And the only time she had been admitted for drug use was Betty Ford in the spring of '92 during the time you knew her?
A: Right. Until -
Q: Exodus in June of '94.
A: Right.
Q: You said you were married before?
A: Yeah.
Q: For how long?
A: For probably four years, four and a half years.
Q: And do you have any children?
A: No.
Q: And have you been married any other occasions?
A: No.
Q: What years were you married?
A: '86 through '90. But we separated in '88.
Q: What is the name of your former wife?
A: [Name Deleted]
Q: And has [Name Deleted] ever met O.J. Simpson to your knowledge?
A: No.
Q: Or Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Now, did you first meet Nicole or O.J. Simpson?
A: I first met Nicole.
Q: When was that?
A: Actually in January of '93.
Q: And at that time Nicole was single woman. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And was not going out with O.J. Simpson. Right?
A That's correct
Q: And you met her how?
A: Actually Faye introduced me to her because Faye and Nicole were going to start seeing a counselor for group sessions to figure out some of their personal issues, and Faye and I just had started talking a little bit. Faye was calling me to let me know that Francesca was missing me and so on and so forth.
So Faye actually asked me to - I think I met Nicole once or twice before at Faye's place, and then Faye asked me one day to come with them to one of these group sessions to get my opinion as to what I thought about this particular group and the guy that was heading it.
Q: Is this Carl?
A: It's somewhere off Sunset.
Q: In that area?
A: In that area, yeah.
Q: You don't remember his name?
A: No.
Q: You went one time?
A: Just one time.
Q: And Faye was there and Nicole was there?
A: Yeah.
Q: Any other of her friends there?
A: I think there were - there was a young man that Nicole had met.
Q: Was that [Name Deleted]?
A: Grant, yeah, that's right.
Q: You went one session. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And what did you tell them about it?
A: That I thought it was a very acceptable group, that the people there really seemed to be wanting to work on their personal issues.
Q: How long did Faye and Nicole go to that group?
A: I think Faye went one more time.
Q: And Nicole? Do you know?
A: Nicole went four - I don't know exactly how long the weeks were, but she actually opted to go for like an accelerated in-depth course of several weeks that she pulled through - that she went through and -
Q: And you know this how?
A: Because we would meet sometimes, Faye and Nicole and I, and Nicole would tell us about how great she felt about this class and so on and so forth and that she had - at the end had come to the conclusion that she would like to try and work it out with O.J. again.
Q: What issues was Nicole trying to work on by going to this group therapy?
MR. LEONARD: Object to the lack of foundation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: To your knowledge, if you know from your conversations with her.
A: I would say the things that were important to her were her insecurities, were her questioning her capacity of commitment, her guilt feelings concerning the kids -
Q: In what respect?A: Of having a broken-up family. I think those would be like the primary things.
Q: And she talked to you about these issues -
A: Right.
Q: - in conversations that you had with her?
A: Right.
Q: So is it fair to say that after first meeting her and going to this group therapy session, you began to talk to her -
MR. LEONARD: Excuse me. I'm having trouble -
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: - and having a friendship with her? Is that fair to say?
MR. LEONARD: I'm having trouble hearing, Mr. Petrocelli.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is it fair to say that you developed a friendship with her during this period of time in early 1993?
A: Right.
Q: And were talking - you were talking with her about these various issues. Right?
A: Right. I would ask her, you know, how things are going and then she would come and would give me feedback as to how the class is going for her.
Q: And during this time you still had not met O.J. Simpson. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. And in connection with talking about these issues, she told you that she was the former wife of O.J. Simpson and he was the father of her two children. Right?
A: Right.
Q: She had split up from him?
A: Right.
Q: And she was contemplating whether that was the right thing to do?
A: Right.
Q: And whether she might go back to him?
A: Right.
Q: Did she tell you about the beatings that she suffered at his hands?
A: No.
Q: She never mentioned that to you?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you about her abortions?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you about the 1989 incident?
A: No.
Q: And did there come a time when she stopped going to this to your knowledge?
A: Yeah, I think -
Q: This therapy.
A: I think the course was done; the course was finished.
Q: And what did she tell you at the end of the course about her plans?
A: That she had started to talk to O.J. about reconsidering and trying to put their family back together.
Q: And what did she tell you O.J. said?
A: That at first he was very hesitant and that they talked I presume several times, but that they had made a decision to try to work it out.
Q: And by the time Nicole told you that she and O.J. had made a decision to try to work it out, you still had not met Mr. Simpson. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Or spoken to him. Right?
A: Right.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you why she had broken up with Mr. Simpson in the first place?
A: Yeah.
Q: What did she say?
A: She said that what was very difficult for her to handle in their marriage were infidelity.
Q: By O.J. Simpson?
A: Right.
Q: Did she describe to you the infidelities?
A: No.
Q: Who the persons were?
A: No.
Q: How many there were?
A: No.
Q: How pervasive it was?
A: No.
Q: Nothing like that?
A: No.
Q: She gave you no details one way or the other.
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you about any other problems besides infidelities?
A: No, that was it.
Q: Did you like Nicole?
A: Yeah.
Q: Were you fond of her?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you continue to be fond of her throughout the remaining time that you knew her?
A: Absolutely, yeah.
Q: And did you find her to be a good person?
A: I found her to be a good person that was going through a difficult time in her life, so sometimes she would react in a fashion that I wouldn't have reacted like that, but that was Nicole, so...
Q: Did you find her to be an honest person?
A: Yeah. Yeah. That's why I was so shocked, when she asked to come to the June 8th meeting about Faye's drug abuse, that she hadn't mentioned it to me before.
Q: That she hadn't mentioned what to you before?
A: Faye's drug use, because I had talked to Nicole about Faye.
Q: When?
A: About her drug use. During the times since the surgery.
Q: What did you ask her?
A: "What's Faye doing? What's up with her? She's spending a lot of time with you. What's going on?"
Q: And what did Nicole say?
A: "Oh, nothing. She's trying" - Nicole was basically trying to let me know that all of Faye's problems were due to my inability to commit.
Q: You're laughing as you say that.
A: Yeah.
Q: Is that because you didn't believe that?
A: Right. I knew that that wasn't the case.
Q: By the way, when O.J. Simpson told you about some of the doubts he was having about his relationship with Nicole, did you tell Nicole that? Did you pick up the phone and say, "I just spoke to O.J., and he told me, you know, that he's having doubts about you"?
A: No. No.
Q: And when -
A: Because by that time a little bit of a polarization had occurred between Cora, Faye and Nicole and Ron and O.J. and I, that there was this -
Q: Men against women. Right?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
HE WITNESS: No, not men against women. Just some guys trying to figure out what's going on in their life, yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Say that again. Guys trying to figure out what's going on in their lives?
A: Right.
Q: And the guys were you, O.J. Simpson and Ron Fischman?
A: Right. I think it just occurred the same way that the girls were trying to figure out what to do with their life.
Q: Now getting back to the story here, when did you first get together with Mr. Simpson?
A: I believe it was the early summer of '93.
Q: And what was the occasion?
A: I think he came to a dinner.
Q: Whose dinner?
A: To -
MR. LEONARD: Excuse me -
THE WITNESS: At a restaurant.
MR. LEONARD: Excuse me. I guess it's because of the air-conditioning. I'm really having a lot of trouble here.
THE WITNESS: I think it was a dinner at Toscana restaurant.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that the first time that you ever met him?
A: I believe so, yeah.
Q: Is that the dinner that's described in Faye's book?
A: No.
Q: Is that the event at Toscana's where -
A: No.
Q: - Mr. Simpson threatened Alessandro/Marcello?
MR. LEONARD: You mean allegedly?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, allegedly, because it didn't happen at all, that incident, but that did not -
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I notice that you and Dan are agreeing on - you almost said "allegedly" simultaneously. Why is that?
A: You said that Mr. Simpson threatened Alessandro.
Q: Yeah.
A: He never did. That evening in particular, I don't know on any other occasions, but that evening there was -
Q: I am not asking you to refute what Faye is saying, although I'm sure you'll get that out sooner or later, but what I am asking you is whether that's the same event.
A: No, that's not.
Q: Okay. This was a different dinner at Toscana's with you and Faye Resnick -
A: Yeah.
Q: - O.J. Simpson and Nicole. Right?
A: Yeah. And some other people might have been there. I know the first time I met him was in a restaurant setting.
Q: Now, by this point in time had Nicole and O.J. begun their reconciliation process?
A: Yes.
Q: And you're still continuing to talk to Nicole; in other words, she's more your friend at this point than O.J. is.
A: Yes. Yeah.
Q: And how long did that continue to be the case, where you considered Nicole the closer friend?
A: I would say until the Cabo trip.
Q: Cabo of '94?
A: Right.
Q: April '94.
A: Right.
Q: Now, let's start with that period of time in 1993 through Cabo '94. You first met Mr. Simpson at Toscana's in the summer. From that point in time on until Cabo in '94, how many times had you done things with him alone, if any?
A: Not very much. We went -
Q: Can you recall a single event that you and he did without the women?
A: No.
Q: And so fair to say then during that period of time the two of you were not close friends?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you didn't do things together.
A: That's correct.
Q: And you didn't pick up the phone and call each other.
A: Actually starting in probably December, we started more of a periodic checking in with each other.
Q: December of 1993?
A: '93, yeah. But it wasn't a close friendship. We started to develop a friendship.
Q: Just started to.
A: Right.
Q: And are you telling me that from starting in December, he would begin calling you just to see how you are?
A: Right. Or I would call him.
Q: And how often would those phone calls occur?
A: Infrequent. Probably once every two weeks or so, because we also had started to talk about doing a business venture together.
Q: When did that begin, that discussion?
A: Probably about December '93.
Q: Now, what business venture was that, by the way?
A: O.J. had an offer to do a video for the Playboy Magazine, and that was a video geared towards the frequent traveler, and he had talked to me about in the past sometimes that traveling a lot or frequently is really - it's difficult for the body, and I had given him some advice as to how to handle it.
And so as Playboy started talking to him about it, he approached me to say, "Look, you've given me pieces of information in the past. Can we do something together here where we'll put together a package of information that we then do this Playboy video together?"
And I said, "Yeah, sure."
Q: Did he mention Playboy to you as early as December of '93 -
A: I don't know.
Q: - or just the concept?
A: The concept. I don't really recall.
Q: And what would your role in the Playboy video be, as outlined by him in these early discussions?
A: Be the person who puts together the information for him.
Q: And did you do so?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you get any money for that?
A: Yeah.
Q: How much?
A: $5,000.
Q: How did you agree on that sum?
A: We didn't.
Q: How did it come to be?
A: I think it was a matter of I told O.J. sometimes that I worked about 60 hours on putting all that information together.
Q: 6-0?
A: 60, yeah. 6-0. Over a period of like two months. "And the thing is like when Playboy
pays something, you'll get something." I wasn't concerned about getting payment for particular -
Q: You were willing to do it for free. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: When you put this time in to develop this information, it wasn't with the expectation, let alone agreement, that you would be paid.
A: Right.
Q: Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And when did you get the money?
A: I think in May '94 when -
Q: What's the date of the check?
A: I don't know. I don't know off the top of my head.
Q: Who paid you the money?
A: I think it came through O.J.'s office.
Q: Not from Playboy?
A: Yeah.
Q: Correct?
A: Right.
Q: Did you get a credit on the video?
A: No. I don't -
Q: Do you appear on the video?
A: No.
Q: Were you present at the making of the video?
A: No. I was present at the negotiation - one of the negotiations for the video.
Q: For what reason?
A: To pitch our - play our pieces of information to the people from -
Q: You helped him pitch the project?
A: Right.
Q: And who did you pitch it to?
A: There were two people from Playboy Magazine there and I think the young man that actually, ended up being the instructor on the exercise part.
Q: Now, what information did you on your own develop for this that you pitched to the Playboy people and to O.J.?
A: There's a whole way on how to deal with jet lag and how to eat right, drink right, take the - do the right kind of exercises, pick the right kind of times to fly and so forth, what vitamins to take to help you get yourself getting over jet lag, w hat foods to not eat.
Q: What foods are you not supposed to eat?
A: Meats.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Red meat.
THE WITNESS: Heavy sauces.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Including McDonald's hamburgers.
A: And milk shakes.
Q: Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Can you give me the date of that? Do you have a copy of the check?
A: Copy of the?
Q: The check.
A: No, but I could -
Q: I would like to know when you got paid.
A: Okay, we could probably find that out.
Q: So you only had one meeting, then, in connection with this whole project. Right?
A: With Playboy.
Q: With Playboy.
A: But I had probably four or five meetings with 0.J.
Q: What would happen at these meetings?
A: We would sit down together and go over the information, how to put it in a logical sequence for presentation.
Q: Okay. And you were not present while the video was shot?
A: No.
Q: Not at all?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any of the outtakes?
A: I never even saw the video.
Q: Never?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if it was ever released?
A: I don't know. I know that there was some footage shown during the trial, but I don't know -
Q: When Mr. Simpson gave you the money, did you ask him how the project came out? Ask him for a copy of it?
A: No.
Q: You accepted the money. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Is that the only time you ever received money from O.J. Simpson?
A: Right.
Q: $5,000?
A: That's it. Actually, I have that written down already to get you that copy of the bank statement.
Q: Right. Is that the only business venture you've ever entered into with O.J. Simpson?
A: That's correct, yeah.
Q: And you've had no other discussions or negotiations?
A: We had a discussion in that whole time for that same project. We talked about the vitamins, Juice Plus that he was taking, and we had actually pitched a little exercise piece of equipment to Playboy in conjunction with a whole jet lag thing.
Q: Where was the Playboy meeting?
A: At the Playboy building in Beverly Hills.
Q: When did that occur?
A: I have it written down in here under "O.J. meeting." You have it in the copies there. March 21st.
Q: That was the meeting with Playboy?
A: Right.
Q: After March 21st did you do anything else with Mr. Simpson concerning this project?
A: Well, we still talked about it sometimes as to I think one day I sat down with him for two hours before the shooting of the video and just have him recite the information to me, and I will talk to him -
Q: Critique him?
A: Yeah.
Q: At the end of the meeting did Playboy indicate that they were going to go forward with the project?
A: No. At that time they were just holding on this.
Q: So that's it in terms of your history of business dealings with O.J. Simpson, including after he got out of jail?
A: That's it.
Q: Have you had any discussions with him about other business propositions or opportunities?
A: No.
Q: And have you ever lent any money to him?
A: No.
Q: Or borrowed money from him?
A: No.
Q: How many times did you go out of town with O.J. Simpson prior to the Cabo '94 trip?
A: Prior to the Cabo trip? Well, I joined them in New York for the opening of the Harley-Davidson Cafe: went down to their house in Laguna one time.
Q: The Simpson's house?
A: Yeah.
Q: With Faye Resnick?
A: With Faye and my dad and Francesca.
Q: And who is your dad?
A: [Name Deleted] Reichardt.
Q: Does he live in Los Angeles?
A: No.
Q: Where does he live?
A: In Germany.
Q: He was visiting?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you took him to see O.J. Simpson?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. Tell me then about this Toscana event that Faye Resnick describes in her book.
A: We were sitting there having dinner, and Alessandro walked in. Alessandro is actually - I knew Alessandro before I knew O.J. and Nicole.
Q: How?
A: From riding motorcycles.
Q: He is a motorcycle rider?
A: Yeah.
Q: Does he ride in the same gang that you ride in?
MR.RUBALCAVA: No.
THE WITNESS: No gang. No, he just rides himself. So Alessandro walked in, and he looked over to the table and he greeted us, and he went to proceed to move to another table. And actually Nicole said something about Alessandro having been to one of her birthday parties and he did something that she didn't appreciate, and O.J. just looked over to the guy and said, "So that's the guy," You know, no big commotion as it was described by Faye.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, was there any discussion that Nicole had dated Alessandro?
A:I think there was established earlier.
Q: Earlier when?
A: Earlier, a few weeks ago.
Q: So you understood that Mr. Simpson knew that Nicole had already dated -
A: Right.
Q: - Alessandro. Correct?
A: Right.
Q: Did you know she had dated Alessandro?
A: No.
Q: Did you know it as of the time of this dinner.
A: No. Until basically that dinner, I really had no knowledge that she had dated him.
Q: And what happened in the dinner to inform you that Nicole had dated Alessandro?
A: That Nicole was saying that Alessandro came to her party and he got pretty drunk there and that he went into the garage and I guess pulled his pants down and took a picture of himself, and Nicole said something to the effect as, you know "He didn't have to do that, knowing that I had been with him," you know, something to that effect.
Q: What did he do with the photograph? Did she say?
A: He showed it around at the party.
Q: And Nicole described that at the dinner table?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. And when she described that, what did O.J. Simpson say?
A: O.J. Simpson said, "So that's the guy."
Q: Kidding?
A: Yeah.
Q: Serious? Upset? What was the tenor of the comment?
A: Almost like I really don't want to hear about it, you know.
Q: In other words, cut it out.
A: Yeah. Quit it.
Q: Quit it.
A: Yeah. Quit it.
Q: Quit it.
A: Yeah. Basically he looked at A1essandro and said. "Oh, that's the guy. Oh, let's not talk about it."
Q: And did Nicole respect his wish that she should not talk about it anymore?
A: Actually, I think from there it ensued to Nicole saying that he doesn't have a right to be so controlling as to control the conversation, and from there it got into more of a disagreement as to what controlling is and not, but within a couple of minutes it was resolved, and things went on. We stayed there; we finished our dinners; everybody went their merry way.
Q: Nicole was complaining about O.J. Simpson being too controlling?
A: Right.
Q: What did O.J. Simpson say in response to Nicole's comments?
A: I think the gist of the conversation was such as, "What's controlling about that? I don't want to hear about the guy."
Q: Did you weigh in in this debate?
A: Oh, absolutely.
Q: What did you say?
A:I agreed with him, because the circumstances where somebody walks in from their past, from the girl's past, it was always okay for them to talk about it, but if either - let's say if I mentioned the name of a former lover, Faye would go nuts. If O.J. mentioned Paula or a picture was seen of Paula, Nicole went crazy.
You know, so it was a matter of saying, "Well, what is it? It's okay for you guys to talk about it and not for us?" And then we are called being controlling, something like that.
Q: Well, Nicole wasn't calling you controlling. She was calling O.J. controlling.
A: That night.
Q: That night. When did that occur?
A:I think that was in the fall of '93.
Q: Now, you also mentioned something about a dinner at the California Sushi Bar?
A: Uh-huh. Yes.
Q: And that was also discussed in Faye's book. Right?
A: Right.
Q: When did that occur, the sushi bar?
A: I think that was in the early fall of '93 also.
Q: Relate that incident.
A: That incident was that I picked up Faye after the office to go down and join O.J. and Nicole. They were doing a taping, an interview. And so Faye and I drove down to Hermosa Beach, something like that, and when O.J. was finished we got in our respective cars and drove down to the sushi restaurant and were sitting at the sushi bar.
And I think it was a nice evening. It was a great evening. Just talking. And Nicole and Faye started talking about wanting to go out dancing after having dinner and -
Q: Were you sitting at a sushi bar -
A: Right.
Q: - or at a table?
A: Sitting at a bar.
Q: Where were you positioned at the bar?
A: There was -
Q: Near the end, in the middle or where?
A: I was at the end.
Q: At the very end of the bar?
A: At the very end of the bar. There's a stairway that goes down. We were sitting at the very end of the bar and the bar continues to go around like that (Indicating). At the very corner there was O.J. sitting; next to him, Nicole; next to Nicole, Faye -
Q: I thought you said you were at the corner.
A: No, we were - the whole group, we were at the corner.
Q: Okay. So describe the order again.
A: O.J.'s sitting in the very corner, Nicole sitting next to him, Faye sitting next to her and then me. And so we were talking, the four of us talking like that, and Faye and Nicole were talking about going dancing, and all of a sudden Nicole started talking about going to the place that Joseph always took them. And we all knew that Joseph was a former lover of Nicole's -
Q: How did you know?
A: Because Joseph also had been a former lover of Faye's, and so it was pretty much common knowledge, and basically -
Q: I still don't understand how you knew.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I still don't understand how you knew that Joseph used to go out with Nicole.
A: Because Faye and Nicole had talked about him.
Q: To you?
A: Or in my presence.
Q: Okay. Go back to this incident.
A: So I know that a couple days earlier O.J. and Nicole had had a disagreement about Paula again, and so O.J. said, you know, basically, "Why do you have to bring up his name?"
Q: Whose name?
A: Joseph's name. When I know in his head he was thinking a few days earlier she was getting on O.J.'s case about taking pictures down and so on and so forth, with the argument that Nicole doesn't want to hear anything about or see anything about O.J.'s former lovers while they were separated, but here was Nicole going - bringing out her former lover. And OJ. just said, "Why do you have to bring up that name?" And Nicole started going ahead again, a similar type of situation. "Don't be so controlling and I can do what I want."
So O.J. got up and went down to the restroom, and then a couple minutes later Faye went down into the restroom. O.J. came back up and he basically said, you know, "Let's go. Let's blow out of here. This is ridiculous."
And he proceeded to order the check and started moving towards the door. He said goodbye to the owner that came over, and Faye came back up and basically we walked out of the place.
Q: Then what happened?
A: Then on the street O.J. was going towards his car, and Nicole threw something after him verbally in the sense of, you know, "Here you go again. You run off like that," something in that fashion, you know. O.J. just turned around and said, "Look, you know, I don't need to hear all this stuff. Let's just go home."
And Nicole almost was kind of like - almost like they were both provoking verbally each other, and it ended up that we took Nicole home and O.J. drove home by himself.
Q: How did it end up that way? Why did it end up that way?
A: Because I don't think that either one of them wanted to sit in the car with each other and talk more about the same issue.
Q: Now, did O.J. - so O.J. was upset. Correct?
A: Well, they both were upset.
Q: Well, I am not talking about both. I am only talking about O.J. Simpson. He was upset that evening. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: As a result of this incident.
A: Yeah.
Q: Correct?
A: Yeah.
Q: And he elevated his voice during the argument. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And stormed out of there. Right?
A: I wouldn't say he "stormed out of there," but we all walked together out of there.
Q: Well, he terminated the evening early. True?
A: Yeah.
Q: Because he was upset. Right?
A: Right.
Q: At the mention of Joseph's name. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: By the way, did you bill Mr. Simpson for the chiropractic treatments?
A: No.
Q: You did it for free?
A: Yeah.
Q: Who else have you treated for free?
A: The list is endless.
Q: Is it?
A: Yeah. I treat friends for free. If Dominick gets hurt in a motorcycle accident - you know, I don't charge friends.
Q: Have you ever treated Dan for free?
A: No.
Q: Meaning he has had to pay?
A: I treated the court reporter for free.
Q: Okay. Now, you had said in this story that you just related that in your - in O.J.'s mind, you knew he was thinking about disagreements that Nicole had had over Paula, and that's why he was upset. In other words, you were justifying O.J.'s thinking process. How did you know all about Paula and disagreements between O.J. Simpson and Nicole about her?
A: Because we had talked, Nicole and I - Nicole actually talked to Faye about it at the house one evening.
Q: Before this -
A: Before it, right.
Q: - California Sushi Bar dinner?
A: Right.
Q: And what had you been told about that?
A: That, well, Nicole was still kind of trying to go through the thought process of what she had learned in that group thing, and she was trying to figure out what of that argument that they had was her involvement and what wasn't. So that's how I know about that.
Q: You didn't know about it from Mr. Simpson. Right?
A: Yeah. No, I didn't know from Mr. Simpson.
Q: When you recounted the sushi bar incident, you said that Nicole and O.J. had disagreements about Paula again. You used the word "again," as though to suggest that she was a frequent topic of disagreement between the two.
A: Periodically, yeah.
Q: And your knowledge or that was gained exclusively from Faye and Nicole. Right?
A: On the Christmas evening I gained that knowledge from O.J.
Q: This is before Christmas, though
A: No. No.
Q: So as of the California sushi dinner, you had never spoken to O.J. Simpson about Paula. Right?
A: Right, correct.
Q: And the information that you had gained from Faye and Nicole concerning Paula was what?
A: That O.J. had been dating her.
Q: And what else?
A: That's it.
Q: And you said something about photographs.
A: Yeah, that there were photos in O.J.'s house of Paula.
Q: And Nicole had asked O.J. Simpson to take them down?
A: Right.
Q: Did you know about the incident at Gretna Green in October of 1993 when Nicole Simpson had to call the police?
A: No.
Q: Mr. Simpson didn't tell you about that?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole tell you -
A: You mean at that time?
Q: At that time.
A: No.
Q: Did he call you up the next day and say, "You won't believe what happened"?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole tell you?
A: No.
Q: Did Faye tell you?
A: No.
Q: To your knowledge did Nicole tell Faye?
A: I don't know.
Q: When did you first find out about it?
A: I think after the trial had started.
Q: When you heard that tape of Nicole's voice, were you surprised?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Why not?
A: Because Nicole raised her voice often like that.
Q: Did you detect fear in her voice when you heard the tape?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Terror?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No.
Q: Did you hear O.J. Simpson's voice on that tape?
A: No. I didn't even listen to the whole tape. You know, it's like when the things in the trial came up, very often I just switched off.
Q: So -
MR. RUBALCAVA: Excuse me one second.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Your lawyer wants you to clarify something.
A: Right. From the moment on that I had the subpoena, I was asked to not watch the trial, so part of when you hear me say "I don't listen to it" is because when something comes on, I would switch off the television. You know, it's like...
Q: After you testified, did you listen to the tape?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever heard the tape?
MR. RUBALCAVA: Excuse me just one second.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
THE WITNESS: I heard only little pieces of the tape, and Dominick also informed me that there might be a retrial coming at some point, so to keep myself away from newspapers and -
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In any event, you've never heard the tape. Is that what you're saying?
A: Not the full tape. Just like -
Q: You've never heard OJ. Simpson on that tape?
A: No.
Q: Screaming and ranting and raving?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection to the characterization.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: No?
A: No
Q: Cursing and using vulgarity -
A: No.
Q: - and profanity?
A: I heard just a little bit of Nicole one time on the tape, and to me...
Q: Prior to Mr. Simpson's arrest, did you ever hear him scream and yell -
A: No
Q: - at Nicole or about Nicole?
A: No
Q: Did you ever see him push her or -
A: No.
Q: - touch her in an aggressive way?
A: No.
Q: He was always the perfect gentleman. Is that fair to say?
A: Yeah, in my presence, definitely.
Q: Did you ever find out from him that he beat her up on New Year's Eve?
A: No.
Q: He didn't tell you that?
A: No.
Q: Not even when you became close friends?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Object to the argumentative question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Excuse me?
A: No.
Q: When you saw - You saw those pictures of Nicole beaten and bruised?
A: Glimpse of it.
Q: Did you ever ask Mr. Simpson why he had done that to her?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Not interested in knowing?
A: No.
Q: It doesn't concern you -
MR. LEONARD: Object to the argumentative question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Fair to say?
A: Fair to say it doesn't - it's not my point in life to find that out, no.
Q: You are not interested in finding out who killed Nicole. True?
MR. LEONARD: Object. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I would like to find out who killed Nicole.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I mean, you'd like to as a matter of idle curiosity, but you're not interested to the point where you're going to do something about it. True?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: That's correct.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And you value your friendship with O.J. Simpson. Right?
A: I value friendships.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, I am not asking you about other friendships. I am only asking about O.J. Simpson. He is the focus of my question. You value your friendship with him. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever seen Mr. Simpson exercise?
A: If you can call it exercise. yeah.
Q: Prior to Nicole's death?
A: Yeah. Just - not really exercise, but do some stretching and do a couple little weights. That's all.
Q: You mean early in the morning?
A: Yeah.
Q: What was he wearing?
A: When he -
Q: Was doing the exercising that you witnessed.
A: Sweat pants.
Q: Have you ever gone jogging with him?
A: No.
Q: Or running?
A: No.
Q: Or anything like that?
A: No.
Q: What color were the sweat pants?
A: I think they were gray.
Q: You only saw one color?
A: Yeah, for the exercise. yeah. It was one morning in his garage; he was doing some stuff.
Q: Oh, in the garage?
A: Uh-huh. For weights. For stretching sometimes, like I said in the past, we did that in his bedroom.
Q: The weights are in his garage. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: What was he wearing when he was doing the stretching in his bedroom?
A: The same gray sweat pants.
Q: The exact same pair of pants, or they were also gray?
A: Also gray. I don't know if they were the same exact.
Q: Did he have any dark sweat pants?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: He didn't?
A: I don't know whether he has dark sweat pants or not.
Q: You have no idea. Right?
A: I have no idea.
Q: By the way, are you wearing Bruno Magli shoes today?
A: No. I'm not. Hush Puppies.
Q: Do you own a pair of Bruno Magli shoes?
A: No, I don't.
Q: You told me about another incident in Christmas of 1993.
A: Uh-huh
Q: You want to relate that to me?
A: Christmas '93 was at Kris Jenner's house. It was a Christmas party at Kris Jenner's house, and Faye, Francesca, my dad and I were driving up to the house of the Jenners, stopped right in front of the garage to get some presents out of the trunk, and O.J. came walking out the door and saying, "I don't need this crap," and he walked towards his car.
And we were standing there, going like, "What the hell is happening now, " and Nicole came running after him, screaming and yelling at him, and Faye went to talk to Nicole and I went to talk to O.J., and I said, "What's up?" I leaned over in his car and said. "What's going on?"
And he related to me at that moment that I think it was Joseph was at the Christmas party and that they had a disagreement about Paula - O.J. and Nicole had a - he relayed to me that he doesn't need that, to have to deal with Nicole's crap, and he was gonna go home.
Nicole came then across the street with Faye in tow, and they started arguing, and then Faye took Nicole away -
Q: Who started arguing?
A: O.J. and Nicole.
Q: What were they saying?
A: That O.J. was saying, "Look, I don't need this stuff. I don't need this crap in my life." And Nicole was going - saying, "This is no crap. You have Paula and," nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, and just going back and forth like that. And it ended up that Nicole went upstairs, got the kids, and they went in O.J.'s car and they drove off.
Q: When you spoke privately to O.J., what was he saying to you? What did he say to you?
A: He was talking to me about that he doesn't need to deal with having to be confronted with Cora's ex-lovers -
Q: Cora?
A: Sorry. - Nicole's ex-lovers if at the same token she accuses him or wants him to never mention and have nothing of his ex-lovers in his life.
Q: And did he explain to you how he had been confronted with an ex-lover of Nicole?
A: Yeah.
Q: What did he say?
A: He said that - I don't know right now whether it was Joseph or someone else that was at that Christmas party at the Jenners' house, and that was probably the extent of the conversation that moment before they drove off.
Q: Did he say that Nicole had done anything at the Christmas party in reference to Joseph?
A: I don't think that at that moment when I talked to him in the car we talked about it, but a couple days later him and I talked about it, that Nicole had come over to his house and again raised questions about Paula, because Paula had sent a Christmas basket to O.J. and it happened to be delivered when Nicole was at his house.
So Nicole started to get on O.J.'s case about still being with Paula, and O.J. said, "I'm not with Paula," but she's grateful for what he had done in the past for her, so she sends him a Christmas basket, so no big deal. So Nicole went off on him about this Christmas basket, then only to get in the car going over to the Jenners' house and to be confronted with one of Nicole's ex-lovers.
Q: Did O.J. say he was confronted with Nicole's ex-lover?
A: Well, just walking in a situation and having him be there.
Q: Did he think Nicole had set him up for this?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did he tell that you Nicole planned this, that we would go to the party and that Joseph would be there?
A: No. Perhaps I should use a different word. When I say being "confronted" with Joseph. I think it was -
Q: What you mean to say was in the same room?
A: In the same room, right.
Q: But he didn't say that Nicole was responsible for putting him in the same room as an ex-lover.
A: No.
Q: Right?
A: No, he wasn't saying that. He was saying -
Q: But the mere sight of Joseph there is what upset him?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No. What upset him was the fact that Nicole was on O.J.'s case for having received a Christmas basket and then O.J. dealing with Joseph at the Jenners' house.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When you say "dealing with Joseph," the only thing that happened to him that he told you about is that he saw Joseph.
A: Right.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: And the only thing that happened at the house was that Paula sent the basket, and then Nicole -
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I am not asking you to defend O.J. Simpson. You know, I just want you to answer my questions. Okay?
A: And I want to clarify the way that you're asking the questions.
Q: I know, but you don't need to do that because there's really good lawyers who will bring out the other side to this, if there is another side. Okay?
I just want to make this clear: The only thing that O.J. Simpson told you in reference to Joseph at the Jenners' party was that he saw Joseph. Correct?
A: Right. Actually he went to Joseph, said hello to Joseph; then walked over to Nicole and said, "See, ex-lovers in our lives are going to be around."
Nicole in that moment turned around to him, called him a liar and said that "You're still seeing Paula, and I know it."
That's what got O.J. upset, not the view of Joseph. What got him upset is the - that it would be okay for Nicole to get on his case about an ex-lover and -
Q: Now, did O.J. Simpson specifically tell you, "Now, Christian, I want you to understand this because you might have to repeat it a couple of years from now: It wasn't seeing Joseph that upset me" -
A: That's correct.
Q: - "it was the fact that Nicole started yelling at me in front of everybody. That's what upset me"?
MR. LEONARD: Object to the argumentative nature of the question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that what you're saying that O.J. Simpson said to you?
A: No.
Q: Okay.
A: What I'm saying is that he was upset about the fact that Nicole yelled at him about something that would be okay for her. It was okay for her but not for him, and for a couple trying to get back together, that doesn't quite work -
Q: In terms of the conflict at the Jenner residence, based on what O.J. Simpson said to you, it began with O.J. Simpson seeing Joseph. True?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Object to the word conflict.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: No?
A: No. It began with - the conflict began in the moment when O.J. went to Nicole and Nicole yelling at him. That's what started the conflict, not Joseph -
Q: But O.J. Simpson said he went to Nicole and said, "See, you can be together in the same room with ex-lovers." Right?
A: But that wasn't the -
Q: And O.J. told you he had no problem with seeing Joseph there.
A: That's correct.
Q: And he told you that he was happy to be there and stay there. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: And O.J. told you that in fact he struck up a conversation with Joseph. Right?
A: He went over and said, "Hello, Joseph."
Q: And they got along handsomely. Right?
A: I don t know whether they talked very much. I wasn't there.
Q: I am only asking you what O.J. Simpson told you.
A: Right, that's correct.
Q: Okay. And they got along, and then he goes over to Nicole and Nicole blows up at him, and that's why he got upset. Right?
A: That's correct.
Q: In other words, once again O.J.'s telling you it's Nicole's fault. True?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't think that he's saying it is Nicole's fault. I think it is a matter of two people getting into arguments over former lovers.
MR. PETROCELLI: We'll stop there.
MR. RUBALCAVA: Okay, propitious timing.
We are off the record?
MR. PETROCELLI: We are off the record, Mr. Rubalcava.
(ENDING TIME: 4:30 P.M.)
I DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT.
SUBSCRIBED AT , CALIFORNIA. THIS _ DAY OF _, 19_.
CHRISTIAN A. REICHARDT