SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
SHARON RUFO,
Plaintiff,
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON et al.,
Defendants
FREDRIC GOLDMAN, etc., et al.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al.,
Defendants
LOUIS H. BROWN, etc.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,
Defendant.
Videotaped deposition of CORA A. FISCHMAN, taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard, 10th Floor, Los Angeles, California, commencing at 10:42 a.m., on Thursday, March 21, 1996, before David S. Coleman, CSR #4613, pursuant to Subpoena.
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS FREDRIC GOLDMAN, ET AL:
MITCHELL, SILBERBERG & KNUPP
BY: DANIEL M. PETROCELLI, ESQ.
11377 West Olympic Boulevard
Sixth Floor
Los Angeles, California 90064-1683
FOR THE PLAINTIFF ESTATE OF BROWN:
JOHN QUINLAN KELLY, ESQ.
330 Madison Avenue
New York, New York 10017-5090
(212) 682-1700
-and-
NATASHA ROIT, ESQ.
116 North Robertson Boulevard
Suite 705
Los Angeles, California 90048
FOR THE PLAINTIFF SHARON RUFO
HORNBERGER & CRISWELL
BY: MICHAEL A. BREWER, ESQ.
444 South Flower Street
Third-First Floor
Los Angeles, California 90071
FOR THE DEFENDANT ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON:
BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER
BY: PHILLIP A. BAKER
2850 Ocean Park Boulevard
Suite 300
Santa Monica, California 90405-2936
FOR THE WITNESS:
KRAMER & McSHANE
PHILIP A. KRAMER, ESQ.
12100 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 850
Los Angeles, California 90405
ALSO PRESENT: ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON
WITNESS:
CORA A. FISCHMAN - VOLUME 3
Examination by Mr. Kelly 650, 800
Examination by Mr. Petrocelli 714
Examination by Mr. Baker 784
UNANSWERED QUESTIONS:
(None)
EXHIBITS:
Plaintiffs' Description Identified
165 Transcript of Interview with Barbara Walters of Cora Fischman
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Here begins videotape No. 1 in the deposition of Cora A. Fischman, Volume III, in the consolidated cases of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs. Orenthal James Simpson in the Superior Court, State of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is SC 031947.
Today's date is Thursday, March 21st, 1996. The time is approximately 10:42. This deposition is being taken at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California, and was made at the request of plaintiff of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp.
The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed by Coleman, Haas, Martin & Schwab of Los Angeles, California.
Would counsel please identify yourselves and state whom you represent.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly for Plaintiff Brown.
MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for Plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MS. ROIT: Natasha Roit for Plaintiff Brown.
MR.BAKER: Phil Baker for O.J. Simpson.
MR. KRAMER: Philip Kramer for the witness.
CORA A. FISCHMAN, having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Good morning, Miss Fischman.
A: Good morning.
Q: Between yesterday when we finished and this morning, have you spoken to anybody about your testimony except for your attorney, Mr. Kramer?
A: Yes.
Q: And who was that?
A: I talked to my kids.
Q: Okay. Anybody other than your children?
A: I talked to Ron and I talk about how my kids are doing.
Q: Okay. All right. But nothing about your testimony specifically?
A: No, not specifically.
Q: Okay. Yesterday we had talked a little bit about an incident in late May where you had picked up Nicole's children one morning for school and Mr. Simpson had subsequently shown up, and the children went from your car into his. Is that correct?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. And what street was that on again?
A: We were on San Vicente Boulevard.
Q: Okay. And I believe you indicated that Mr. Simpson pulled in front of your car?
A: No. Behind my car.
Q: Okay. He pulled behind your car.
A: Right.
Q: And Sydney and Justin got out of your car and got into his?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. And did he pull out in front of you then after they got into his car?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And after he pulled out in front of you, did you proceed directly to the school then?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You didn't stop anywhere?
A: No.
Q: Okay. When was the last time that morning that you saw Mr. Simpson and the children then?
A: When was the last time?
Q: Yeah.
A: That was the last time. I didn't see them after that.
Q: Okay. When you pulled up to the school, you didn't see him there in the Bentley?
A: No. I didn't notice.
Q: Okay. In fact after he left that intersection there, you didn't see the car again, did you?
A: No, I didn't see the car.
MR. BAKER: Leading.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. And it's your testimony that after that incident, later that day or at any time you never discussed it with Nicole?
A: Later?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You did discuss it with her.
A: I did discuss it, yeah. I called her on the phone. I said what was going on.
Q: And that was after the kids left the car?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And what did she tell you?
A: She said that O.J. was mad.
Q: Okay.
A: And that O.J.'s mad at me. I said, "Why? What did I do?" She said well, he's just mad at me. So that's what.
Q: After that phone conversation did you have any other conversations with Nicole?
A: That was it.
Q: That was it?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And you have no knowledge of Mr. Simpson going back to Bundy with the children after they got into his car?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: On June 14th, 1994, okay, this is two days after the murder now, do you recall where you were that day?
A: What's June 14th?
Q: It's Tuesday.
A: Tuesday?
Q: Yeah.
A: Tuesday. I was at home.
Q: Okay. Do you recall going to Bundy at all?
A: Tuesday. Yes, I did go to Bundy.
Q: Okay. Do you recall approximately what time that was that you went over to Bundy, Nicole's condo?
A: I went in the afternoon.
Q: Okay. And do you recall what caused you to go over there?
A: Lou asked me for the key to the Bundy house.
Q: Okay. Lou had called you?
A: Lou went to Rockingham.
Q: To your place on Rockingham?
A: Right, in the morning, and asked where Alvia was.
Q: Okay. Was Alvia there at that time?
A: Yes, yes, Alvia was there, right.
Q: Okay. And did Alvia talk to Lou at that point?
A: No, I don't think so, no.
Q: Did she leave with Lou?
A: She was Alvia was at home, at my house at Rockingham.
Q: At your place.
A: Yeah, at my at Rockingham.
Q: What I am asking you is: When Lou came and spoke to her, did she then go with Lou back to Bundy?
A: I think so, yes.
Q: Okay. And did you speak to Lou at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you give him the keys to Bundy?
A: No, I didn't give my keys to he asked for Alvia's keys at that time.
Q: Did Alvia have a set of keys to Bundy?
A: Yes.
Q: And did Alvia give Lou a set of keys?
A: I don't know. I think so. I'm not sure.
Q: Okay. Well, do you know how Lou ended up getting into the Bundy residence that morning?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you let him in?
A: No, I didn't let him in.
Q: Okay. When did you have occasion to go over to Bundy yourself?
A: An occasion?
Q: That day. Sorry.
A: That day?
Q: That day.
A: I went in the afternoon, because they asked me to help take the stuff out.
Q: Who had asked you to take the stuff out?
A: No. You know what? I think I drove Alvia to Bundy. That's why I went there.
Q: That morning or that afternoon?
A: Afternoon.
Q: And when you got there, who else was at Bundy at that time?
A: The Browns, Denise and Tanya.
Q: Was Dominique there?
A: Dominique? I'm not sure.
Q: And was Lou Brown there?
A: Who?
Q: Lou Brown.
A: Lou? I think he was there.
Q: Okay. Anybody else, if you recall?
A: A.C. was there.
Q: Okay. Anybody else?
A: That's it.
Q: Was Ron Fischman there?
A: No, Ron wasn't there.
Q: Was A.C. already there when you got to 875 Bundy?
A: Yes, he was there already.
Q: And what, if anything, was A.C. doing when you got there?
A: We were putting all of Nicole's belongings to the car. That was pretty much what we were doing.
Q: But did you pack anything yourself?
A: Yeah, I went upstairs and put everything in bags.
Q: And did you have any conversations with A.C. that day?
A: Yeah. We just said, you know he told me, "Just be strong. Be strong." That's pretty much what he told me.
Q: Okay. Did he say anything about Mr. Simpson at all?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any discussions with him as to how the murders had occurred?
A: No.
Q: No discussion about who might have done it?
A: No.
Q: Did A.C. tell you he had spoken to Simpson?
A: No.
Q: That never even came up?
A: No.
Q: Did you remove anything from Bundy yourself?
MR. KRAMER: Do you understand the question?
You're asking
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Yeah, and kept it. I'm sorry.
A: No.
Q: You didn't keep any of Nicole's belongings
A: No.
Q: from Bundy?
A: No.
Q: Was there any other time when you were over at Bundy that week later in the week?
A: That was the last time.
Q: Okay. Did you go there on the 17th?
A: What's the 17th? You have to give me
Q: That was the day after the funeral, the day of the Bronco chase.
A: Yes, I went back, yes.
Q: Okay. And did someone call you to come over?
A: I was so confused that day. I think Lou.
Q: I'm sorry. I'll come back to the 17th. On the 14th was there a time that Simpson called the Bundy residence when you were there?
MR. KRAMER: This is the Tuesday when they were packing?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Yeah, Tuesday on the 14th, when you were packing.
A: I don't know, you know, because I was upstairs in the bedroom, so...
Q: Okay. Was Ron Hardy there that day?
A: Yes, he was there.
Q: He was.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Did you see him on the telephone at all?
A: I was upstairs, so I wouldn't know, so...
Q: Okay. And as far as you know, Ron Fischman wasn't there at all on the 14th?
A: Ron wasn't there, no.
W: Okay. Was he there on the 17th at all?
A: 17th?
Q: Yeah, the day after the funeral, was he at Bundy?
A: Yeah, he followed me, yes, yeah.
Q: Did you and he discuss him coming over to Bundy or if he would come over there?
A: At the time, no, I don't think so. I just heard over the news that someone was at Bundy, and then when I Lou called, or I must have spoken to someone at the time. He said that there was another 911 or Lou called 911. So I panicked. I said, "Oh, my God, something happened again." And that was you know, like I got scared. I said, "Another one?" So my instinct was just to go there again and find out.
Q: Okay. Did you have any discussions with your husband before you went over there?
A: I don't remember. I mean, it was like the whole thing was to me was I was very confused and...
Q: Did you have any discussions between the 14th and the 17th with your husband about who might be responsible for Nicole's murder?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: At that time?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Yeah.
A: We talked, but it was hush-hush. We were like we didn't know. It was like we were afraid to talk because we were afraid who really did it, afraid that we might get hurt.
Q: Well, who did he tell you he thought did it?
A: At that time our first initial reaction was he did it, you know.
Q: Simpson did it?
A: That's what we thought.
Q: Okay. That was your husband's reaction, too?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: At that time, yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did your husband have another theory also in the days following the murder as to who might have committed it?
A: I don't know.
Q: He didn't talk to you about anybody other than Simpson being the possible murderer?
A: No.
Q: Did he relate to you any conversations he had had with A.C.?
A: I don't know about that.
Q: Okay. Did you have any conversations after the 14th with A.C., either at the wake or funeral?
MR. KRAMER: The 14th is the Tuesday?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. And did you speak to him at the wake?
A: No.
Q: Did you speak to him at the funeral?
A: No.
Q: When did you next speak to him?
A: You mean to A.C. Right?
Q: Yeah.
A: That walk that I did with him on San Vicente.
Q: Okay. And that was later in June after
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And he had called you?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And what had he said to you when he called you?
A: He said he asked how I was and how I'm doing, and he said, "Would you like to talk?" I said yes, you know, and that was it. So he said, "We'll meet at a coffee shop."
Q: Okay. And how long did you talk to him for?
A: I would say less than half an hour. 15, 20 minutes. We walked down San Vicente.
Q: And did A.C. indicate to you that he had spoken to Simpson at all prior to your meeting?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did he tell you anything that Simpson had said to him about the murders?
A: He didn't say anything about that.
Q: Okay. He didn't talk to you at all about who might have committed the murders other than Simpson?
A: No, he didn't say anything.
Q: Did he in any way indicate to you that he thought Simpson had committed the murders?
A: At that time
MR. BAKER: I think this has been asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember anymore, no.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Nothing?
A: I don't think so, no.
Q: Did he talk about Nicole's relationship with Simpson at all?
A: Yeah, we talked about that, yeah.
Q: Okay. Do you recall what he said?
A: He said they had a very passionate relationship, that Nicole was a very devoted wife. Q: And what did he say about Simpson?
A: And that both of them just were just they loved each other.
Q: Okay. Did he indicate that there was a problem also or
A: Oh, yeah, he mentioned about O.J.'s womanizing.
Q: Okay. Anything else?
A: That was it.
Q: Did he mention 1989 at all, the New Year's Day incident?
A: No, he didn't mention that, no.
Q: Okay. And after that conversation with A.C., have you spoken to him since at all about this?
A: I'm sorry. Did I talk to who?
Q: A.C. at all after this one conversation this day.
MR. KRAMER: You're asking any conversation
MR. KELLY: Any time.
MR.KRAMER: in the last two years?
MR. KELLY: Any time.
THE WITNESS: Well, he was at the house at Rockingham when I picked up the kids one time. I said hello, and he asked me how I was doing. That was it. And I asked him he said he's working. I said, "Oh, that's good." That's pretty much
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. You didn't discuss the case at all?
A: No.
Q: Simpson?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Now, I want to ask you about the incident at Tryst, the restaurant.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You were there that night.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you were at a table with a number of other people?
A: Yes.
Q: And who else was there, if you recall?
A: Cynthia was there.
Q: Okay.
A: [Name Deleted]. [Name Deleted]. One guy that Nicole was trying to set up with Cici, so I forgot the name.
Q: Was Keith there also or...
A: Keith was there, but he didn't sit with us. You know, he was just there.
Q: Okay. And did there come a time that Simpson showed up there?
A: Yeah. We were waiting for a table. Then he showed up, so...
Q: And did you eventually get a table?
A: We waited we waited quite a bit.
Q: Okay. Did there come a time that night that you left before the others?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: We left? What do you mean?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: That you left before the other people
A: With Nicole?
Q: you were with.
A: No. We ate dinner there, so
Q: And who had you gone there with?
A: Who did I go?
Q: No. Who had you gone to the restaurant with?
A: I went with Nicole actually, no. I went myself. We went separate cars.
Q: Okay.
A: She was with [Name Deleted]at the time.
Q: Okay. And you arrived there yourself in your own car?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And did you leave by yourself?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you leave before the check had come, or everybody left at the same time?
A: We pretty much left at the same time.
Q: You didn't leave before the others?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Miss Fischman, did you leave before the others?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Nicole and [Name Deleted]were there while we pretty much left the same time.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. You didn't express any discomfort about being there and left before dinner was finished?
A: Oh, no. We finished dinner and everything. We ate, and then, you know, finished we ate and then we left, and that was it.
Q: Okay.
MR. KRAMER: Just do the best you can.
BY MR. KELLY: Q: Do the best you can.
MR. KRAMER: Do the best you can.
THE WITNESS: Exactly, but you're trying to say what
MR. KRAMER: No, don't analyze it. Just listen
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Don't wonder what I'm asking. Okay?
A: Okay.
MR. KRAMER: Just think about it
THE WITNESS: I am.
MR. KRAMER: and answer to the best of your ability.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. By the way, did you ever know Nicole to be dishonest?
A: I'm being dishonest?
Q: No. Did you ever know Nicole to be dishonest in any way?
MR.BAKER: Asked and answered four times in three days.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you give me a specific instance or...
A: Well, when she told me not to tell O.J. what she was doing.
Q: Okay. Other than that?
A: That's being dishonest.
Q: Other than that?
A: Pretty much that's it.
Q: Anything she told you that you later found out to not be true?
A: No. That's pretty much, you know...
Q: Did she ever exaggerate things?
A: Exaggerate things?
Q: Yeah.
A: No, I wouldn't consider that, no.
Q: Okay. She wasn't overly dramatic, like Faye?
A: No, not at all. She was a real person.
Q: Okay. She didn't make things up, did she?
A: No.
Q: Okay. This statement that Nicole told you Simpson had made to her about "If I ever catch you with another man, I'll kill you," we had this discussion before with the other attorneys, too, and you indicated that was sometime in 1993?
A: Yeah, right. Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you remember what month that was?
A: When they tried to reconcile, so '93, March, April, around that time.
Q: Okay. So it was at the time they were reconciling, though. Is that correct?
A: Right, that was-that week that they were trying to reconcile, when they went out to dinner.
Q: And Nicole, I believe you indicated she had already had her affair with Marcus?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And to the best of your knowledge, after Mr. Simpson had made this statement to her, she didn't date anybody else for that next year or so, did she, Nicole, other than Simpson?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: You mean Nicole? No, she didn't date.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And to the best of your knowledge, even in April and May of 1994 now-this is still during the reconciliation Simpson did not know Nicole was seeing anybody else, did he?
A: Simpson did not know? Yes.
Q: Yes, he did not know?
A: I don't know. I don't know.
Q: Okay. You never discussed it with him.
A: No.
Q: Okay. You never discussed with Mr. Simpson this guy [Name Deleted]from Cabo, did you?
A: No.
Q: Or this guy [Name Deleted]?
A: No.
Q: No. Okay. Or Marcus Allen at all.
A: No.
Q: Okay. But you talked to him a lot, didn't you?
A: Yes. Not yeah, right, I would say.
Q: Okay. And he would talk about Nicole a lot with you also.
A: Yes.
Q: And as far as you knew, though, during the course of these conversations, he never indicated that he knew Nicole had started seeing anybody else again.
A: That I don't know, no.
Q: But to the best of your knowledge.
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: As far as I know, yeah, I don't know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. And even into June of 1994, Mr. Simpson never indicated that he knew that Nicole was seeing anybody else.
MR. KRAMER: Never said anything to Cora?
MR. KELLY: Yeah, indicated to her, told her.
MR. KRAMER: Do you understand the question? Do you have it Could you either have it read back or reask it, because
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Even in June of 1994, up to that time had Simpson ever told you or spoken to you about Nicole seeing anybody else
A: No.
Q: since their reconciliation?
A: No.
Q: Okay. So as far as you know, even up to the day of the murders, June 12th, 1994, Simpson did not know of Nicole seeing any other person since her reconciliation.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, you had also indicated that you had a lot of long talks with Mr. Simpson in the two years prior to Nicole's death. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And would it be fair to say there were different, I guess, phases of their relationship that past two years, meaning January to June of 1992 when they were going through the divorce?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Then there was a period after the divorce and before their reconciliation?
A: Yes.
Q: Then the reconciliation. Now, did you receive a large number of phone calls from Mr. Simpson during that January to June period of 1992?
MR. BAKER: Vague.
THE WITNESS: January to June?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Yeah, right-
A: What do you mean by a large phone call?
Q: Well, did you get steady phone calls from Mr. Simpson? .
A: It wasn't steady. I mean, once every two weeks, something like that. It wasn't all the time, no. He didn't call every day. Is that what you
Q: Would he call more than once a week?
A: No. It was just once a week or something like that. It wasn't a lot. I wasn't really that close to him. I was more close to Nicole.
Q: Okay. Do you recall what you would speak to him about when he would call?
A: It was always we talked about pretty much the problem with Nicole.
Q: Okay. Did he ever ask you where Nicole was at any given time?
A: Where Nicole was?
Q: Yeah.
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: No. Pretty much asked he asked how Nicole was, what is she doing. Yes, what is she doing, you know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did he ever call you late at night?
A: Late at night?
Q: Yeah.
A: No. Not late at night, no. Not late at night. I don't think that ever happened.
Q: Okay. Would he call you at all during the reconciliation period?
MR. BAKER: You're talking '93?
THE WITNESS: June of
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: '93
A: Yes.
Q: into April-May '94.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. What would be the purpose of those phone calls?
A: About Nicole, about kids, you know.
Q: Okay. You said he would call you when he had a problem with Nicole?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Problems with Nicole?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Yeah.
MR. BAKER: Vague.
THE WITNESS: Yes, pretty much, yeah.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me what some of those problems were that he called you about?
A: What Nicole is up to. That's pretty much, you know...
Q: This was during the reconciliation period.
A: Oh, during the reconciliation.
Q: Yeah.
MR. KRAMER: Could you give her again the time frame?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Yeah. April of 1993 up through May of 1994.
A: You know, there was a period where O.J. was not calling me, because they were going out a lot.
Q: Right. That would have been during the reconciliation
A: Yes.
Q: period?
A: Yes.
Q: And moving up to May of 1994 now, this last month
A: Yeah.
Q:-do you recall him calling you at all during that period?
A: The last time I spoke to him about the relationship was that walk that we did, and then we went to you know, when I asked him, "I want to talk to you," that was the last one.
Q: That was when you went to his office then?
A: Yes, we walked and then went to his office.
Q: Okay. You don't know what that date was, do you?
A: April, May.
Q: Let me ask you: Do you remember Christian Reichardt's party?
A: That's April 30.
Q: 30th. Okay. It was after that. Right?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: He was in Puerto Rico before that, wasn't he, Simpson?
A: Was he in Puerto Rico the whole April, May? Could have been May.
Q: Okay. What about, do your remember Mother's Day clearly? Was it after Mother's Day?
A: Yes, what about Mother's Day?
Q: When you took I am trying to
A: Yeah, because she had pneumonia on her birthday, which is the 19th. You know, it's gotta be I talked to her I talked to him around April, then, when he got back from Puerto Rico.
Q: And was this before Nicole's birthday and when she got sick?
A: Oh, yes, yes, before. Before that.
Q: Okay.
A: Before the incident in the car where the kids were picked up, yeah, definitely.
Q: And this was before she gave the bracelet back?
A: Before she gave the bracelet? Yes.
Q: Okay. So it was probably early May?
A: I'm not sure. Early May or late April, you know, around that time frame.
Q: Okay. But you can't mark it relative to Christian Reichardt's party? You don't know whether it was before that or after that?
A: I can't, no.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me, how long did you speak when you went for the walk?
A: How long?
Q: Yeah. Was it 10 minutes? 20 minutes?
A: I would say half an hour, something like that.
Q: And did he do most of the talking?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Okay. And what were his concerns at that time?
A: That-well, you know, I told him that "You have one last chance to save your marriage," you know. "Why don't you move to Florida." And at that time I was trying to convince him, you know, to just do something. "Nicole loves you. She really ultimately wants to go back."
And so at the time he was saying, you know, "We gotta" he was just confused. He didn't know. He says, "What does she want?" You know, "I'm with Paula now."
I mean, that's pretty much the kind of conversation. You know, he's upset. He's angry, because he says, you know, "Nicole has to have a sense of commitment here. If she wants to commit, she commits." That's pretty much the conversation.
Q: So when you took this walk with him, was it your understanding he had gone back to Paula again?
A: No. I was trying to save the marriage. That's pretty much what I was trying to do.
Q: Okay. Did he indicate he was thinking of going back to Paula or...
A: At that time I don't know. I mean, I was trying to save the marriage.
Q: Okay. He indicated he wanted to save the marriage, didn't he?
A: Well, he would like to, of course, for Sydney and Justin's sake.
Q: And did he indicate what Nicole's feeling was towards getting back together at that time?
A: Well, he said he doesn't know what Nicole wanted.
Q: Is that what he was asking you about or...
A: Yes, pretty much.
Q: And what were you telling him?
A: Well, I said, you know, "Nicole's going through something, and just give her some time."
Q: Okay. When you say Nicole was "going through something," had her sort of demeanor or attitude changed at all in these last couple months? I'm talking about April and May of 1994.
A: Well, she told me she said she wanted to have fun.
Q: And did she look like she was having fun to you those last couple months?
A: Well, I mean, fun is going out and stuff like that.
Q: Well, did she seem happy with her life?
A: You know what? The outward she seemed, but I think inside, not really.
Q: Well, did she tell you that?
A: Well, she was confused. She didn't know what she wanted.
Q: Did you discuss that with her, though?
A: Yes, we did.
Q: Okay. And she indicated she was confused?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: Yes.
Q: Did she also indicate she didn't want to move back with Simpson at that time?
A: She didn't want at the time, but she said, "Ultimately we'll be together."
Q: Do you recall when she said that?
A: Well, I can't recall, but that's kinda like what we talked about at the time.
Q: Where? In May of 1994?
A: Yeah.
Q: In May of '94 did Mr. Simpson indicate to you that he was ever going to break up with Nicole, leave her?
A: He I never talked to him at that time anymore, so I don't know.
Q: You never talked to him again after that walk and that day in the office?
A: I think that was the last time.
MR. KRAMER: You are talking about during that period of time?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: I think that was the last time, yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You saw Nicole a lot during that month of May 1994
A: Yes.
Q: didn't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did she ever indicate to you that she was going to leave Simpson?
A: She yeah, she said that she was thinking about it.
Q: Okay. Did there ever come a time I mean, you saw her every day, didn't you?
A: Yeah. She said that she was not ready to go back. She decided that she was just gonna do whatever she has to do first.
Q: Okay. And did she tell you she had told Simpson she wasn't going to continue their relationship at that time?
A: Yes. I think it was after the letter.
Q: The IRS letter?
A: The IRS letter, right.
Q: Okay. Well, what she did she attach any significance to the returning of the bracelet, the bracelet she gave back to Simpson?
A: Well, she told me
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: she felt guilty.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. But did she say it was part of ending it with him, in terms of giving back that bracelet?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Well, she said it wasn't hers. It's not unlike her. She said, "Where will I use this?"
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. But she also indicated he was trying to buy her with it, didn't he didn't she?
MR. BAKER: Very leading.
THE WITNESS: At the time she felt that way, too, yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Yeah. And she didn't want to be bought by him.
A: Well, this is what we were talking about, like, you know, Cici and I says, "Well, you mean to tell me he's trying to buy you?" you know.
Q: And she said yes. Right?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: At that time that's what she thought, yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: This was a specific conversation you had with Cici there also?
A: With Cici. Yeah, I think Cici.
Q: And this was at Starbucks? A: Could be Starbucks. Could be one of our runs. I mean, I don't know. I don't remember.
Q: What I am trying to ask you, Miss Fischman: Was there a particular time that Nicole indicated to you that she had ended it with Mr. Simpson prior to the IRS letter?
A: I don't know the specific time, but she was thinking about it because she was even thinking of moving to Redondo Beach and renting. So, you know, she was
Q: She was looking at places, wasn't she?
A: Yes, she was looking for a place.
Q: She had a real estate broker?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And this was before the IRS
MR. PETROCELLI: She didn't answer the question.
MR. KELLY: I'm sorry?
MR. PETROCELLI: She had a real estate broker and the answer was yes. She went like this (Indicating), Mr. Kelly.
MR. KELLY: Thank you, Mr. Petrocelli.
MR. PETROCELLI: You must pay attention, Mr. Kelly.
MR. KELLY: I like you covering my back, Mr. Petrocelli.
MR.BAKER: That was beautiful teamwork.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let the record reflect laughter.
MR. KRAMER: The smile's not on everyone's faces, but actually I don't care, but not everyone's laughing.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You didn't look at any places with Nicole, did you, during that time period?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you why she was looking at other places, other than staying at Bundy?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Well, she said first she said she wanted to oh, she started looking after she got the IRS letter because she wanted to lease that place on Bundy and then rent a place like down at the beach in the summer with the kids.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Well, she had gotten that letter that last week before her murder, hadn't she?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: I don't even know when that yeah, I don't know when that letter came. Must be
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: It was June 6th, if that
A: It was June 6?
Q: Yeah. Monday.
MR. BAKER: Just because Mr. Kelly says it doesn't make it true.
MR.PETROCELLI: But what does make it true is the date on the letter.
MR. BAKER: Well, the best evidence is the letter.
THE WITNESS: I never saw that letter, so I you know, she just told me about that.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Were you there when it came?
A: No, I wasn't there.
Q: Were you there the day she received it?
A: No, I wasn't there.
Q: Did you see her the day after she received it?
A: Yes, I saw her.
Q: Could you describe her mood to me?
A: Oh, no, she called me when she got that letter.
Q: Okay. What did she say to you?
A: She told me that "I got a letter from O.J."
Q: Okay. And was she pleased with it?
A: No. She said that "This is the guy" "This is the" something like to the effect that "He wants me to go to jail," something like that.
Q: Okay. Now, you are speaking very calmly, Miss Fischman. Was that the way Nicole was when she called you?
A: You know what? 'Cause I'm tired.
Q: Okay.
A: I'm just telling you. But do you want me to express?
Q: I want you to tell me exactly what she said and how she said it.
MR. BAKER: Oh, you didn't ask her for that.
THE WITNESS: I'm tired.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I know you are, but you've done a lot of work here the last couple days, but if you can think about this for a second and tell me exactly what she said and how she said it when she called you, that would be great.
A: That's exactly what I'm in a calmly way.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me again now exactly what she said, Nicole, when she called.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I'm trying to remember. Pretty much that's the gist of it.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q Okay. Was she upset?
A: Yes.
Q: Did she use any vulgarity when she spoke to you?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Was her voice raised at all?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say she was yelling about it?
A: Yeah, she didn't like the fact that she says, you know, "That's the last money I have," you know, because she had like 90,000 or something; she has to pay 90,000.
Q: Okay. Was she angry about the letter?
A: She yes. Yes.
Q: Okay. And did she indicate she was very angry at Simpson for sending the letter?
A: Yes.
Q: And did she express concern about the kids also because of the letter?
A: Well, she was afraid she was gonna go to jail.
Q: Okay. And did she other than that, did she express any other concerns?
A: That was...
Q: When she said she was afraid of going to jail, is that what Nicole said to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And how long was this conversation with her?
A: That was it. It was a short conversation. She just expressed her anger, and that's it.
Q: She was definitely angry, though?
A: I said, "Oh, okay."
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: But my question is: She was definitely angry when she called you?
A: Well, she was very upset, yes.
Q: Okay. And you knew Nicole very well. Right?
A: Pretty much, yes.
Q: Was this probably one of the more upset times you had spoken to her?
MR. BAKER: Vague.
THE WITNESS: I think she was surprised, yeah, she was, yeah.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: More angry than other times?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: More angry than other times?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well, was it about the most angry you had seen her at Mr. Simpson?
MR. BAKER: I thought it was a telephone call, yes.
THE WITNESS: That's pretty much, yeah, she was angry.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. And did she tell you when she had received the letter relative to the phone call she made to you?
A: I'm sorry. Could you please repeat the question, please.
Q: Okay. Nicole had gotten this letter from Simpson delivered to her. Correct?
A: Right.
Q: Did she tell you how it was delivered?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did she tell you when the letter had come?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did she indicate to you she had just received the letter when she called you?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did she tell you she had received it that day?
A: She just said, "I just got a letter," so...
Q: Okay. Did she read it to you, by the way?
A: No.
Q: Prior to that phone call, had she ever mentioned anything to you about Simpson making threats about the IRS to her?
A: No.
Q: Never discussed that with you?
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me.
MR.BAKER: Don't look at Mr. Petrocelli if he wants to change your answers. You are just here to testify honestly.
Let the record reflect that plaintiffs' counsel are engaged in a summit meeting.
MR. KELLY: Now you're excited.
Q: Prior to this phone call
A: Which phone call?
Q: Nicole's phone call to you.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. -about the IRS leader letter, was there a time a few days earlier she had called you after she had spoken to Mr. Simpson also?
MR. BAKER: Leading. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You don't remember her calling and saying that she had hung up on Simpson and they had had a fight?
MR. BAKER: Very leading.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember that. I don't remember that incident, no.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. During these last two weeks before Nicole's death
A: Okay.
Q: Okay? did you speak to Nicole every day?
A: Did I speak to Nicole every day?
Q: Yeah.
A: Pretty much, yes.
Q: Did you talk to her about Simpson every day?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did she ever indicate to you that she had spoken to him at anytime the last two weeks?
A: Yes. Yeah.
Q: Okay. Do you recall what those conversations were?
A: Well, pretty much she was saying that she says, you know, "My mom told me that" "Mom had told me that O.J.'s gonna give me a hard time, meaning financially.
Q: Okay. About what?
A: I guess financially. Money.
Q: I know, but why would he be giving her a hard time? Over what?
MR. BAKER: Speculation. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Because they were ending the relationship.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And it was your understanding that she was ending it with him. Is that correct?
A: I thought it yeah, pretty much, yes.
Q: Okay. And she wanted to leave him, and he didn't want her to leave him. Is that correct also?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: I thought so.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: That was your impression.
A: Right, because I talk I never talked to O.J., so I was only talking to Nicole, yes.
Q: Okay. But based on your conversations with Nicole, it was your understanding that Nicole was leaving Simpson and that he did not want Nicole to leave him. Correct?
A: Oh, you mean O.J. not wanting to leave Nicole?
Q: O.J. didn't want Nicole to leave him.
MR. BAKER: Speculation. Vague.
THE WITNESS: They were pretty much burnt out with each other at that time.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: In what sense?
A: At the time Nicole told me that O.J. was going out with Paula.
Q: But other than just telling you that, didn't there ever come a time Nicole said, "It's through between us. I'm not seeing him anymore"?
A: Yeah, yeah, because, you know, she said to me, "If Paula's still around, you know, it's still the same. There's another woman," and she will not take that.
Q: And Nicole told you this?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. Did Nicole tell you she had told this to Simpson also?
A: I don't know about that.
Q: Okay. By the way, you said before that it was your understanding that Nicole finally ended it when she received the IRS letter.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Is that something she told you as part of the phone call?
A: No. No. She was just she was just expressing her anger, her disappointment.
Q: With that phone call.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And other than the fact she said, "He's trying to send me to jail," you don't remember anything else she said to you?
A: Actually that's what she said: "That guy's trying to send me to jail," you know.
Q: Okay. How long was Nicole sick with double pneumonia? Do you remember approximately how long that was?
A: Oh, she was actually she couldn't run for a week, so we ran and then it got worse, her coughing got worse, and that was it. She was...
Q: Okay. And I believe you indicated you had never seen Simpson over at the house during that week she was sick?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you talk to her everyday?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did she ever indicate to you that Simpson had been over to the house that week while she was sick?
A: Not really, no. I mean, she mentioned about the flowers and the chicken soup, you know. Chicken soup, yeah.
Q: That was just one day, wasn't it?
A: I don't remember. No, I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Do you know who was up there taking care of Nicole, if anybody was?
A: Alvia was there.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether her mom was up there at all?
A: No, I don't think so. I don't know.
Q: Okay. Your kids would usually I mean, you said they spent an awful lot of time with the Simpson kids, didn't they?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And when you would take your daughter, your 12-year-old daughter, 11-year-old daughter, somewhere, to an amusement park or something, would she usually take Sydney with her also?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Or if Sydney was going somewhere, would she usually take your daughter with her, too?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that always the case?
A: Yes.
Q: Inseparable.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: The four of them were inseparable.
Q: Okay. As of June 12th, 1994, do you know whether your daughter had any plans of going anywhere with Sydney?
A: What's June 12?
Q: That was the day of the murders.
A: No, we didn't have any plans, no.
Q: Okay. There was no discussion of your kids and the Simpson kids
A: No.
Q: in the near future going anywhere?
A: No.
Q: Okay. All right. Do you keep a calendar book, by the way?
A: No.
Q: Ever keep a calendar book?
A: I used to.
Q: In '94 did you keep a calendar book?
A: No.
Q: Okay. With the recital, we're talking June 12th now, how long was that entire recital from start to finish?
A: It was an hour. Oh, you mean from when we sat there till
Q: Yeah, till the bitter end.
A: Oh, my God, till...
Q: It wasn't as long as the deposition, was it?
A: It seemed that I think it was
Q: It was a long one, wasn't it? Weren't there 30 some acts? Do you recall?
A: Oh, yeah, and it so happened that the
MR. BAKER: I think this is leading.
MR. KELLY: It's not. I'm refreshing her memory.
THE WITNESS: I think she was the last act.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you approximate the length of time you were at the recital from the time you arrived there till the time you left?
A: Two hours.
Q: Do you recall how long after you arrived there that Mr. Simpson arrived there?
A: He arrived in middle of the program, so I would say an hour.
Q: And you indicated that he sat near Nicole?
A: Yes. The same row with Nicole.
Q: And how many seats were empty between them?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: About three, three seats.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And were you sitting in front of them or behind them?
A: I was sitting in front of them. No. I was they were behind me, yeah, in front of them.
Q: Okay. Did you turn around to talk to Nicole at all during the recital?
A: About any specific?
Q: Just in general.
A: Yeah, we did, yes.
Q: Okay. And were your kids back with the Simpson kids in between?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you ever during that hour period or more ever see O.J. Simpson talk to Nicole Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see them looking at each other, even?
A: I was behind them, so
Q: You were in front of them.
A: Yeah, I was in front of them, right.
Q: Okay. There was an intermission during this recital, wasn't there?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall seeing either Mr. Simpson or Nicole standing up during the intermission?
A: No.
Q: They both stayed in their seats?
A: See, O.J. left sometime during the program, and then when he got back, he was sitting at the corner and he was holding flowers.
Q: So how long was he there before he left?
A: How long?
Q: Yeah.
A: I don't know. I mean, I wasn't paying attention.
Q: Okay. When you say he was seated in a "corner," he was by himself, wasn't he?
A: Yes. Because the kids were all in back already, the whole at the time.
Q: Okay. And he grabbed the second separate chair and was seated in the corner of the gym?
A: Right, yes.
Q: Okay. And how long was he seated there for?
A: How long?
Q: Yeah.
A: I don't remember. I don't know.
Q: Okay. Well, the last act
A: 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes.
Q: Well, the last act was your daughter and Sydney, was it not?
A: I would say 10 minutes.
Q: Yeah. The last act had your daughter and Sydney in it?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And at that point he was seated back in the corner on the separate chair?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And was that the only act that Sydney was in during the recital, was the last act?
A: Yes.
Q: So when Sydney performed, Mr. Simpson was sitting in the back of the auditorium in a separate chair, and Nicole was in her regular seat that she had been in for the whole recital. Is that correct also?
A: At that time we were all standing up. We were all excited, so I didn't even notice that. Because we were all standing up because we were so excited about the program, so I don't know. It was the whole thing was like
Q: Okay. Well, did-
A: I don't remember. I don't remember.
Q: Do you remember where Simpson was at that time?
A: Well, the last time I saw him, he was at the corner, so that was the last time I saw him.
Q: You didn't see him move up again, did you?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And the last time you saw Nicole, she was still in that row of seats where the kids were also?
A: They were all together already because we were all standing up. We were all
Q: Including Nicole.
A: Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Q: And Mr. Simpson was separate from all of you.
A: He was not with us, yes.
Q: And that's all I'm asking. He was separate, back in the corner.
A: Exactly, right.
Q: And you and Nicole and the Brown family and everybody was together.
A: We were all yes.
Q: Okay. And you didn't talk to Simpson at all that day at the recital.
A: No. I said, "You look tired."
Q: And where was he seated when you said that?
A: I just look in the back and I says, you know, "You look tired."
Q: Yeah. That was in the row of chairs there?
A: Yes, yes, when he just walked in.
Q: And you didn't talk to him after that at all?
A: No more.
Q: Did you see who he spoke to, if anybody, during the recital?
A: No.
Q: Your husband was at the recital, wasn't he?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see him speaking to your husband at all?
A: Well, I asked Ron to take pictures you know. He says, "Why don't we all take pictures," stuff like that, so that was yeah.
Q: That was after the recital.
A: That was during the recital. That was, you know, while we were waiting for the program, you know, when Sydney was there and [Name Deleted], I said, "Take pictures," so
Q: But that wasn't him talking to Simpson at all, was it?
A: No. No.
Q: It had nothing to do with Simpson.
A: No.
Q: Okay. My question to you is: Did you ever see your husband talking to Simpson at all either during or after the recital?
A: I didn't see him, no.
Q: Okay. Did you see Simpson talking to anybody either during or after the recital?
A: I saw a few people saying hello, yeah.
Q: Okay. Other than that?
A: No.
Q: Nicole had a camera at the recital, didn't she?
A: I'm sorry. What?
Q: Did Nicole have a camera at the recital?
A: I don't remember. Yes, I think so. Or a video. I'm not sure.
Q: Okay. She had some sort of camera, though.
A: Yeah, right.
Q: And why did you ask your husband to take a picture of Simpson with Sydney?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I mean, to me I thought it was cute, that they had that nice outfit, you know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Were you under the impression that Nicole wouldn't be taking a picture of Sydney with her father?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: No, I was not even thinking about that. No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Let me ask you: You've said you've had long conversations with Simpson since his release from jail, didn't you?
MR. BAKER: Misstates her testimony.
THE WITNESS: Long conversations? BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well, conversations with him.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And that's been over at Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me the first time you were over there and spoke to him after his release?
A: The first time?
Q: Yeah.
MR. BAKER: I think this has been covered.
MR. KELLY: It hasn't.
THE WITNESS: I the first time was I asked where the kids were, so I Gigi called me oh, no. Actually I called, you know, the housekeeper. I asked if he's here. And so I said I would like to see him. That was it.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And
A: And so I went there, and that's pretty much you know, I asked how he was doing, "How are the kids? Did you see the kids?" and that's what we did.
Q: Okay. Did you talk about the trial at all?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk about Nicole at all?
A: We talked about Nicole. I you know, I kinda said you know, we commiserated, you know. We were both crying.
Q: Did he indicate to you what his plans were now that he was out?
A: At that time he said that he's "They're investigating. They're gonna look for the real killers."
Q: Who did he say was investigating?
A: He said he's hired investigators, so...
Q: He said he had hired them?
A: Well, he said there are private investigators there and they're looking, so...
Q: Did he say these were people that he had hired?
A: I don't know. I didn't go into specific.
Q: Okay. But it was your impression that he was actively pursuing an investigation
A: Yes.
Q: for the real killers? Have you discussed this again with him since that time?
A: No. No.
Q: You've never discussed this investigation again?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Has he ever indicated to you the status of any investigation?
A: No.
Q: Has he ever indicated to you they have any leads as to who the real killers might be?
A: No.
Q: Has he ever indicated to you he has turned up some evidence that indicates he wasn't guilty of these murders?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever just asked him point-blank whether he was innocent of these murders?
A: I never asked him.
Q: After this one conversation you had about investigators and the real killers, when was the next time you spoke to him?
A: I guess it was during the time where he was going to have the kids. It was I think around October. It was Sydney's birthday. I don't know. Around that time. And he wanted to know if [Name Deleted] would like to go with them. You know, he said that Sydney would like to have [Name Deleted] with her.
Q: Okay. [Name Deleted] did go with her, didn't she?
A: Yes.
Q: And they went to
A: Yes.
Q: Neverland? Okay. How many days was that for?
A: Just all day.
Q: Okay. Did Simpson went with them. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you go with them for that?
A: No.
Q: And did you have any discussions with Simpson at that time about the murder, real killers or investigation or anything?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And when was the next time after that?
A: Next time was when the kids when he had the kids again, and so he called me where to bring [Name Deleted] at the time, because at the time the kids were not at Rockingham.
Q: Okay. And did you bring them somewhere else?
A: Yeah.
Q: Was that [Name Deleted]'s house, do you remember?
A: Yes, Don [Name Deleted]'s house, yes.
Q: Okay. And did you visit with him for any period of time when you took the kids down there?
A: No. I just dropped [Name Deleted], and then [Name Deleted] spent the night there with Sydney, and then I went to because at the time I wanted to see Sydney. That's the first time I've seen Sydney since, you know, this whole thing, because I said I wanted to see the kids, so that was it. And then the following day I went to pick up [Name Deleted].
Q: Okay. No real conversations
A: No.
Q: at that time?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Has there been any time since then where you've been over at Rockingham and sat down and visited with Mr. Simpson for any length of time?
A: That's pretty much what happened.
Q: Okay. Well, you said you had had some meals over there, too.
A: Meals is when the kids were there right, yes.
Q: Okay. But sit-down ones with Simpson there, too?
A: Well, one time was the Christmas we were exchanging gifts. That was Christmas Day. He invited us, the whole family, to his house.
Q: Did you have any discussions with him then or
A: About what?
Q: About the murders.
A: No.
Q: About Nicole?
A: Well, we always, you know sometimes things like, "This is what Nicole would love. This is" you know, that's pretty much what we
Q: Any discussion of any investigation?
A: No.
Q: And the only attorney you have spoken to with Mr. Simpson is Mr. Leonard that time?
A: Yes.
MR. KRAMER: Is this in connection with the civil case? That's what you're asking about?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
MR. KRAMER: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. And no other attorneys?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You never saw Mr. Baker over at Mr. Simpson's house?
A: No.
Q: Okay.
(Discussion held off the record.)
MR. KELLY: Okay, I'm done.
MR. KRAMER: Can we take a break for a few moments, please?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 11:41. (Recess.) (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 165 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 11:49.
EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Good morning.
A: Good morning.
Q: I have some extra questions for you. The next document I am going to show you is Exhibit 165, which is the transcript of your interview with Barbara Walters in 1994. Is everything reflected on this transcript attributed to you accurate
MR. BAKER: Vague.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: -and true?
A: Pretty much, yes.
Q: It's true to your recollection. Right?
A: To my recollection, yes.
Q: And if you were under oath at the time of the interview, you would have not changed your answers. Right?
A: Not changed my answers?
Q: Correct. Your answers would have been the same. You would have still told the truth. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Who is Ron Fischman's lawyer at the current time?
MR. BAKER: Irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You have no information at all?
A: No.
Q: Now, you had dinner with Ron Fischman last night. Right?
A: No, I didn't see him. I talked to him.
Q: You talked to him on the telephone. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And the topic of this deposition came up. Correct?
A: He asked how I'm doing
Q: And
A:-and I was crying, and he said, "I'm sorry you have to go through that."
Q: And you also talked about his deposition coming up. Right?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: I didn't mention to him about that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: He brought it up. Right?
A: No.
Q: Didn't come up at all?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did he tell you that he is avoiding service of a subpoena on him for this deposition?
A: We didn't talk about that.
Q: Are you aware of that?
A: Of course. It was in the news.
Q: Are you aware that he is still trying to avoid being served?
A: I don't know about that.
Q: Okay. Has your husband has Ron told you that he is afraid to testify?
A: He's afraid?
Q: Yes.
A: No, he's not afraid.
Q: Did he tell you that he did not want to testify?
MR.BAKER: I think this is irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: He didn't say that. He just didn't want to get involved.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
He didn't want to get involved even though Nicole is dead?
MR. BAKER: Speculation, argumentative
THE WITNESS: Even if Nicole's dead?
MR. BAKER: irrelevant.
(Discussion held off the record.)
MR. PETROCELLI: Please go back on the record. I will start the question over.
Q: Ron Fischman has told you that even though this case involves a determination of Mr. Simpson's responsibility for the death of Nicole, he does not want to get involved?
MR. KRAMER: You are asking if those words or words to those effect?
THE WITNESS: Those were not his words. I just assumed that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Has he ever talked to you about his willingness to come forward and testify in this case?
A: No.
Q: Has he told you about any concerns that he has about testifying in this case?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did O.J. Simpson ever tell you before Nicole's death that the Los Angeles Police Department was biased against him?
A: No.
Q: And that they had treated him unfairly in the past?
A: No.
Q: And did Nicole ever tell you that?
A: No.
Q: Anyone ever tell you that?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever been out in public with Mr. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Ever? Before Nicole's death. You've been to events with him. Correct?
A: Oh, before Nicole's death?
Q: Yes.
A: Yeah, we yes.
Q: Have you ever been out with him and the children, his children or your children?
A: His children? Without Nicole?
Q: No. With Nicole.
A: With Nicole?
Q: With or without Nicole.
A: Probably, yes.
Q: You ever see Mr. Simpson wear a disguise in public to conceal his identity?
A: No.
Q: And did he ever tell you that he disliked the public notoriety and fame that he had?
A: We never talked about it.
Q: Did it appear to you that he enjoyed his notoriety and his fame, based on your observations of him?
A: Did he if he enjoyed it?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't know.
Q: Did it appear to you that he liked being famous?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: If he liked being famous?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes.
A: I guess so. I don't know.
Q: You don't have an opinion on that? You knew this man for three or four years.
A: Yeah, I don't know. I guess he likes it. I don't know.
Q: Are you reluctant to say things that you think might hurt him in this case?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Harassing.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You're here just to tell the truth. Right?
A: I've been telling the truth.
Q: And if your testimony is truthful, you are not concerned with whether or not it will result in damaging evidence against him, are you?
A: I'm not concerned about that.
MR. BAKER: Vague.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You are just going to tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may. Correct?
A: Exactly.
Q: You are not here to protect Mr. Simpson, are you?
A: No.
Q: You are not here to protect him because you're concerned about his children losing their father, are you?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever discussed with Mr. Simpson the effect that this case might have on his ability to have custody of his children?
A: No.
Q: That topic ever come up at all?
A: Talked about the custody?
Q: Yes.
A: Not really, no.
Q: "Not really." What does that mean?
A: Well, we mentioned about I asked him when the kids when he's gonna have the kids.
Q: You mean when is he going to get the kids for good, you mean. Right?
A: For good, right.
Q: And what did he say?
A: He said, "Wait till all this lawsuit"
Q: This lawsuit?
A: "is finished." Yeah. The whole
Q: So you understand that his getting the kids must await the outcome of this lawsuit, according to what he told you. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: No. I thought that they were just finishing the school year.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, that's not what you just said. You just told me that he said his getting the kids has to await the termination of this lawsuit.
A: He said he's got to take care of a lot of things first.
Q: So it's fair to say that you have an understanding that this lawsuit the outcome of this lawsuit could have an effect on his getting custody of the children. Correct?
A: No.
Q: You have your understanding in that regard?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered. Harassing.
THE WITNESS: I thought that this after the school year ends, that he was gonna get the kids.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What does that have to do with this lawsuit?
A: And that he said he's got to take care of a lot of things first.
Q: You understand that this lawsuit is one of the things that has to be taken care of before his custody issue can be resolved. Correct.,
A: I didn't know that.
Q: He told you that. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: He told me that he has to take care of things first.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: It's very important to you that Mr. Simpson's children be with him, isn't it?
A: It is important to me, yes.
Q: Did O.J. Simpson talk to Sydney Simpson at the recital?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: O.J. talk to
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you see O.J. Simpson talk to Sydney Simpson at the recital?
A: No.
Q: Not at all?
A: No.
Q: Not even during the taking of the photograph?
A: I didn't see them, so...
Q: You did not see Ron Fischman take the photograph?
A: No.
Q: You did not see O.J. Simpson give Sydney the flowers?
A: No.
Q: So you saw no interaction at all between Sydney and O.J. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Now, before the recital began, the annual performances, did you speak to Nicole at all?
A: I don't think so.
Q: And during the intermission did you speak to Nicole at all?
A: During the intermission?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't think there was an intermission.
Q: No intermission at all?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And after the performance did you speak to Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Mr. Simpson, to refresh your recollection, testified that there was an intermission.
MR. BAKER: Mischaracterizes his testimony.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In any event, I believe the evidence will demonstrate that there was an intermission.
MR. KRAMER: Does that refresh your recollection?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Does that refresh your recollection at all?
A: I don't know. I don't think there was an intermission.
Q: Now
A: It was a one-hour thing, so...
Q: Now, the truth is that you and Nicole were upset with each other at this time, and that's one of the reasons you did not talk to her. Correct?
A: No, I was not upset.
MR. BAKER: Leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: But there was a reason why you and she did not speak to one another that evening. Correct?
A: No. You know what? That evening was it was a lot of commotion because we were with the kids and she was with the family.
Q: But there were opportunities for you and she to at least exchange casual conversation, but you didn't. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Leading
THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't
MR. BAKER: and the witness's state
(Discussion held off the record.)
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q. But there were opportunities for you and she to at least exchange casual conversation, but you didn't. Correct?")
THE WITNESS: Correct.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. What were you wearing that evening?
A: What was I wearing?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: I don't remember. Jeans?
Q: Did you have a dress on?
A: I don't know. I don't remember what I was wearing.
Q: Did you have a light outfit on?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Me?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes.
A: No, I don't think so.
Q: Was it apparent to you at that event that O.J. Simpson and Nicole Brown Simpson were avoiding each other?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you about an incident at the California Sushi Bar involving herself and O.J. Simpson, Faye Resnick and Christian Reichardt?
A: No.
Q: Never mentioned it to you ever?
A: No.
Q: Did she ever tell you about her going back to the Harley-Davidson Cafe opening in New York with Mr. Simpson and Faye Resnick and Christian Reichardt?
A: Yes.
Q: Did she tell you that she had an argument with Mr. Simpson at that time?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: I didn't know that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What did she tell you about the event?
A: Well, I was in New York with them.
Q: You attended. Right?
A: No, I didn't attend.
Q: Why not?
A: Well, because Christian came, and there were like four people who could get into the opening night, so I told them that "That's okay, you know, you guys" "you four go," and then I, you know...
Q: Were you there with Ron Fischman?
A: No. I was by myself.
Q: Did you stay with O.J. Simpson and Nicole at
A: No. I stayed at a hotel.
Q: At a hotel.
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And did Nicole tell you during at any time during that trip to New York City about an argument that she had with O.J. Simpson?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Excuse me?
A: No.
Q: Nothing at all?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did Nicole tell you about plans to open up a coffee shop?
A: Yes.
Q: She told you about this near the end of her life?
A: Pretty much, yes. She was thinking with Faye Resnick.
Q: Thinking about doing what?
A: Opening a shop with Faye Resnick.
Q: And did she invite you to participate in that business opportunity with them?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you say?
A: Well, you know, I said, We'll wait till I get my whole divorce settlement. At that time we were thinking of the three of us doing something at one point in that time.
Q: At that point you were contemplating divorce from Ron Fischman?
A: Yes.
Q: And you had told that to Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did Nicole indicate to you how much money you would have to come up with to invest?
A: Well, she said something about 90,000. 90,000.
Q: She asked you for 90,000?
A: Oh, no, no, not that. Not me.
Q: All three of you would have to come up with 90,000?
A: No.
Q: What did she say about 90,000?
A: Well, she said something like 90 000. Numbers to me were...
Q: That's what Nicole had in the bank, about 90,000. Right?
A: Oh, okay. Then that's it, then. That's where I got that number.
Q: Okay. Did she tell you how much money you might be expected to contribute?
A: No.
Q: Did these conversations come up for the first time in the last weeks of her life?
A: No. We talked about that before.
Q: When?
A: Even when-before when she just got divorced. One time she said she was she wanted to open a hair salon, and one time she said she'd like to open where Starbucks used to be, she would like to open like a cafe with jazz music there. You know, she was she's been thinking about that.
Q: Did the conversations grow more serious near the end?
MR. BAKER: Vague.
THE WITNESS: No. It was just like I thought we were just talking about something to do.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did she ever indicate to you that she wanted now that she was breaking up with Mr. Simpson for good, she wanted to open up this coffee shop with
A: No.
Q: Nothing like that?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Nicole ever tell you about her abortions?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did she tell you that she did not want to bear any more children for Mr. Simpson?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. And when did she tell you that?
A: When we you know, during our run, the first when they were separated in 1992, she said she would love to have more kids, you know, but not with O.J.
Q: And did she tell you about medical injuries that she sustained?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you about trips that she took to the emergency rooms or hospitals?
A: No.
Q: Never?
A: Never.
Q: Did she tell you about an incident where she had to go get treatment for a head injury?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you that O.J. Simpson was hard on her during her two pregnancies with Sydney and Justin?
A: No.
Q: Never mentioned a word of that to you?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Never told you that O.J. Simpson would call her fat and was abusive to her verbally when she was pregnant?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Never mentioned to you about O.J. Simpson's dissatisfaction with her gaining weight during pregnancies?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Well, she mentioned about that, yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What did she say about that?
A: She mentioned about that she didn't like herself being fat.
Q: Yeah, but I am not asking you about that. I am asking you about O.J. Simpson's dissatisfaction with her.
A: No, never mentioned that.
Q: Not once.
A: No.
Q: She mentioned her own dissatisfaction with herself, but not O.J. Simpson's. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes.
Q: She complained to you that O.J. Simpson did not spend enough time with Justin and Sydney?
A: Right.
MR. BAKER: Leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: She did?
A: She did complain, yes.
Q: Okay. And she complained about that throughout the time that you knew her?
A: Yes.
Q: Including the last months and weeks of her life?
A: Yes.
Q: What would she say
A: What would she say?
Q: about that, yes, when she discussed it with you?
A: That he's always out of town and that the playing of golf. That's pretty much...
Q: Was Nicole very protective towards the children?
A: I wouldn't say protective, no. She was she was attentive but not protective not overly protective, no.
Q: Was she a good mother?
A: Yes.
Q: Did she love her children?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Would she let anything she would never let anyone harm her children. Correct?
A: Of course, yes.
Q: And she would never let anyone threaten her children's security. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And her children were the most important persons in her life. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: You said that O.J. Simpson and Nicole had a passionate relationship.
A: Yes.
Q: What do you mean by that?
A: Well, that's what Nicole described their relationship. They used to have passionate you know, very sexual and very they were into each other.
Q: Is it fair to say that when that the relationship was passionate from both a good and bad standpoint?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: I thought when they meant passionate is the good side of it, and they had so much passion.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, based on your observations of the relationship, is it fair to say that when it was good, it was really good, and when it was bad, it was really bad?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: I never saw the bad side, so because at the time I wasn't there when I only saw the good side, when they were trying to reconcile.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, she told you about being beat up. Right?
A: No, she never told me that. She only told me the 1989.
Q: What do you mean, "only"?
A: That was the only incident that I thought that was the only incident.
Q: You used the word "only." Does that indicate to you that that wasn't so bad because it only happened one time?
A: No, I didn't say that.
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I didn't say it was one time. I thought at the time it was like they had a big fight.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah.
A: That's how I because she never talked to me about it.
Q: You knew about the womanizing. Right?
A: I knew she told me, yes.
Q: So you knew that there were really bad things that had happened in her relationship with O.J. Simpson. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Leading and vague.
THE WITNESS: What do you mean?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: She had gotten beat up; he had cheated on her consistently; he's threatening to put her in jail. You don't think these are attributes of a bad relationship?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: I guess. I don't know. I guess so.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Fair to say they had a very stormy relationship?
MR. BAKER: Vague.
THE WITNESS: Stormy?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Nicole ever tell you that she feared knives?
A: Knives?
Q: Knives.
A: No, she didn't talk about that.
Q: Never told you about her fear of knives?
A: No, never told me.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: She ever tell you that O.J. had told her that he would kill her with a knife?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever talked to Let me ask you this: After
A: You said four questions.
MR. KRAMER: Yeah, is this is this are you halfway through your four questions at this point?
MR. PETROCELLI: No, I'm not. Let me continue. After did you ever see Mr. Simpson wield a knife?
A: No.
Q: You ever hear Mr. Simpson talk about knives at all?
A: No.
Q: Did he ever show you any knife collections that he had?
A: No.
Q: He gave you knives as a present, didn't he?
A: Not knives.
Q: Did he give you Swiss Army knives?
A: Key chains.
Q: With knives on them. Right?
A: Yeah, you know, the whole set.
Q: And where did he get them? Do you know?
A: From the Swiss Army.
Q: Swiss Army what? Company?
A: Company.
Q: And they made all kinds of knives?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: Yes. I guess, yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You ever see any other kinds of knives in his house other than eating knives?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did he tell you about a knife he had purchased in May of 1994?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You knew he was filming FROGMAN in May of 1994 in Los Angeles?
A: I thought it was in Puerto Rico.
Q: Did you know that he was filming part of the sequences in Los Angeles?
A: I didn't know that.
Q: Did you ever discuss with him that project?
A: No.
Q: Do you know any of the scenes in that project?
A: No.
Q: Do you know that he wielded a knife in one of the scenes in that project?
A: No, I didn't know that.
Q: Okay. Did you ever learn that O.J. Simpson told Faye Resnick that he would kill Nicole?
A: No.
Q: If Faye were to testify to that, do you have any reason to think she was lying? If Faye were to testify that O.J. Simpson called her on May 2 or May 3 and said, "I'm going to kill Nicole," do you believe that Faye was lying?
A: I wouldn't believe Faye at all.
Q: You would not believe her?
A: Not at all.
Q: You think that's a lie?
A: I think Faye's mouth, I think everything as a lie.
Q: And if Christian confirmed that, would he also be lying,
A: Christian?
Q: Yes.
A: Probably, yes.
Q: And why do you think that both of them would lie about such a thing?
MR. BAKER: Vague. Argumentative. Leading.
THE WITNESS: Both would lie?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes.
A: You mean meaning to kill somebody? You're gonna tell
Q: Threaten to kill Nicole, yes.
MR. BAKER: Mischaracterizes the testimony.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So you believe that if both Christian and Faye were to say such a thing under oath, they would both be liars. Is that what you're saying?
A: Well, with Faye, I wouldn't believe Faye.
Q: I am asking you now about Christian.
A: Christian, I don't know. Probably, yes. I don't know.
Q: Probably he would be lying also?
A: No. Probably
Q: He would be telling the truth?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You mentioned something about a [Name Deleted] at Toscana's. A waiter at Toscana's?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, this is a man that Nicole met in 1994?
A: No. Way before that.
Q: Way before that?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Did Nicole
A: We used to
Q: I'm sorry. Go ahead.
A: I'm sorry, yeah.
Q: Did Nicole express any interest in this [Name Deleted] at anytime in 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: And how long to your knowledge had Nicole known [Name Deleted]?
A: Since I've known Nicole. No. I mean since we started going to Toscana.
Q: Was [Name Deleted] still a waiter at Toscana in 1994 before Nicole's death?
A: Yes.
Q: And what interest Withdrawn.
A: Had Nicole ever had any sort of relationship sexual relationship with [Name Deleted] before 1994?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And what about during 1994?
A: During 1994?
Q: Before she died.
A: Yeah.
Q: Well, describe the sexual relationship Nicole had with [Name Deleted] in 1994 before she died.
A: That wasn't 1994. She was still at Gretna Green, so...
Q: When she was having a sexual relationship with [Name Deleted], she was living at Gretna Green?
A: What's
Q: I am
MR. KRAMER: Are you having a problem with the term "sexual relationship"?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Having any kind of sex, intercourse, oral sex.
MR. KRAMER: You are talking physical sex?
THE WITNESS: Messing around? I don't know. She always says, "I mess around." So what does that mean?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So when she said "mess around" to you, what did you understand it to mean? Oral sex?
A: I guess.
Q: Okay. Well, let's include messing around as a type of sexual activity between two adults. Are you focusing on what I'm saying now? Okay? So using that in the definition of sexual relationship or sexual activity, did Nicole have any sexual activity with [Name Deleted] at Toscana?
A: I guess so.
Q: And when Did you see it?
A: No. I wasn't there.
Q: Nicole told you about it. Right?
A: Nicole told me.
Q: Okay. And when did Nicole tell you?
A: After that. After the incident. I don't know. I mean, during one of our runs, so I can't
Q: Was it during the time that Nicole was involved in her reconciliation effort with O.J. Simpson?
A: Oh, boy. I don't know. I don't know. I'm sorry.
Q: And in 1994 did Nicole have any sexual activity with [Name Deleted] at Toscana?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did she tell you about any?
A: She was very attracted to him.
Q: What did she tell you in 1994 before she died about her interest in [Name Deleted] at Toscana?
A: Oh, by then they were just friends. They were just
Q: All the time that Nicole was at Bundy they were just friends and nothing more. Is that what you're saying?
A: I assumed, yes. I don't know. I mean, they still talked to each other. They did talk to each other intermittently, yes.
Q: Did she tell you that she was interested in this [Name Deleted] during the time she was living at Bundy?
A: I don't remember.
Q: After Nicole's death and after you found out Ron Goldman also had been killed, did you ever talk to any of Ron Goldman's friends, such as [Name Deleted] or anyone else, about Ron's death?
A: Yes.
Q: And tell me what tell me who you spoke to and what was said.
A: I spoke to [Name Deleted] and [Name Deleted].
Q: At the same time?
A: Yeah, pretty much whenever I saw them they were together, yes.
Q: And this was soon after the deaths of Ron and Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you call them up?
A: No. Actually the first time I saw them after that was that Tuesday when I went to Bundy, and they were there. They were putting flowers.
Q: [Name Deleted] and [Name Deleted] were laying flowers?
A: Right, laying flowers on the ground.
Q: At Bundy?
A: At Bundy. And they saw me.
Q: And that's the first time you saw them?
A: Right.
Q: And tell me what you talked about.
A: Well, we just hugged each other and we were crying. Pretty much that was
Q: Well, tell me what was said, if anything, about the reasons well, the facts and circumstances of the deaths.
A: Everybody was confused and shocked at that time that you know, that was pretty much
Q: Did they did [Name Deleted] or [Name Deleted] say anything about O.J. Simpson's involvement in Ron's death and Nicole's death?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: What did they say to you?
A: You know, they said, "Do you think he did it?" Because that was what everybody asked, you know. Even the media asked me that was the first question.
Q: Did they tell you what about any history between Ron and Ron Goldman, that is, and O.J. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Did they tell you that, you know, O.J. Simpson had run into Ron?
A: No.
Q: Or had seen Ron?
A: No.
Q: Or had seen Ron in front of Starbucks one day?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether O.J. Simpson had seen Ron in front of Starbucks?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you know whether O.J. Simpson ever saw Ron Goldman before June 12th?
A: I don't know. I don't know.
Q: Did either [Name Deleted]or [Name Deleted] tell you about any confrontations that O.J. Simpson had with Ron Goldman?
A: No.
Q: Did they express any viewpoints about why or any opinions about why O.J. Simpson killed Ron Goldman?
MR. BAKER: Vague as
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q Did they give you any information about why Ron was at Nicole's condominium that evening?
A: We no. No. We they thought that he was just bringing the glasses, so that was pretty much what...
Q: You've talked have you talked to anybody about Ron's Ron Goldman's activities that evening, why he was going to Bundy, where he might be going afterwards, anything like that?
A: No.
Q: No?
A: What do you mean, "activities"? Like what?
Q: His whereabouts, you know, why he was there that evening. Have you ever spoken to anybody about that?
A: Yeah.
Q: Who?
A: Why Ron was there?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: I talked to-I don't know. To my friends and to you know, to my friend Cici at that time and to all those people I talked to. You know, we questioned how why was he there, what was he doing there, you know, yeah.
Q: Did you learn anything?
A: Pretty much all the answers were vague at the time.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether Ron Goldman ever drove Nicole's car?
A: If I knew?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes.
Q: Did he?
A: Well, Nicole told me yes, one time. That's when they all went out.
Q: And she told you that Ron drove the car?
A: Ron yeah, Ron drove the car because they were both drunk at the time, Faye and Nicole were drunk, and Nicole and Ron didn't want them to drive the car, so he volunteered. He volunteered to drive them home because he was not drunk?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And nobody ever told you about Ron Goldman being involved in drugs. Correct?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did Nicole tell you that Ron Goldman worked out at a place called The Gym in Brentwood?
A: Yes.
Q: What did she tell you about that?
A: That he works out there. Nicole was not interested in working out, anyway, so it didn't matter.
Q: Did Nicole work out at The Gym in Brentwood?
A: No.
Q: No?
A: (Shakes head.)
Q: Did she work out at any health club?
A: I worked out with her at Pro Gym once, you know. I had to drag her. But she never liked working out with weights, was not interested in that.
Q: Did O.J. Simpson give Nicole very expensive diamond earrings for Christmas, the last Christmas that Nicole was alive?
A: You know, I never saw those earrings. I don't know. I've never seen those.
Q: They were discussed in the Star article
A: Yeah.
Q: that you were paid to give information for. Do you know about the earrings?
A: She told me she has those earrings. They were beautiful, yeah.
Q: Do you know whether Nicole returned a pair of earrings to O.J. Simpson when she gave him back the bracelet?
A: If I know about it?
Q: Yeah. Did she tell you about that?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you that O.J. Simpson had asked back for the earrings when she returned the bracelet?
A: I think what happened was she lost one or she lost the other, and she had one made or something.
Q: Did she tell you that she made a claim for insurance and got money?
A: I didn't know that.
Q: Okay. So you don't know anything about her returning these earrings to O.J. Simpson
A: I didn't know.
Q: or giving them to him?
A: I didn't know that.
Q: Okay. She didn't tell you anything about that.
A: No.
Q: Have you ever been to McDonald's with O.J. Simpson?
A: McDonald's? Probably. Oh, no, no, no, I don't think so.
Q: The answer is no. Correct?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever been there with O.J. Simpson to eat?
A: With O.J.?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you see O.J. Simpson and Paula Barbieri together at any time in May or June of 1994 before Nicole's death?
A: Yes.
Q: When?
A: I was driving down Wilshire and I saw O.J.'s car with a woman, and I called Nicole. I said, you know, "I think O.J.'s with Paula." So that was it. That's my
Q: And to the best of your recollection, when did that occur?
A: Oh, God, around around May, around that time.
Q: Before or after Nicole's illness?
A: Nicole was sick at the time, so that was
Q: During the time she was ill?
A: Yeah, right, yeah.
Q: And what was Nicole's reaction when you told her that? A: She didn't say anything. She didn't express anything. She was just, "Oh," you know.
Q: Did you know that Paula Barbieri ended her relationship with O.J. Simpson on the morning of June 12?
A: I didn't know that.
Q: Did you know that O.J. Simpson and Paula Barbieri had a fight about whether Paula should attend the dance recital?
A: I didn't know that.
Q: Did Nicole and you ever discuss her feelings towards Paula?
A: Her feelings?
Q: Yes, Nicole's feelings.
A: Well, she was kinda jealous of Paula.
Q: And she related an incident at Marcus Allen's wedding where she left the wedding because Paula called?
A: She didn't attend the wedding, yes, because Paula called, yeah, right.
Q: So just because Paula called the Rockingham house
A: Yeah.
Q: Nicole refused to attend the wedding
A: Exactly.
Q: And what because she was so upset about Paula.
A: Yes.
Q: And in December of 1993 Nicole got very upset when a Christmas basket from Paula arrived at the Rockingham house as well. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And Nicole was angry with O.J. Simpson about that. Correct?
A: Yes. Right.
Q: Do you know whether Nicole ever spoke to Paula Barbieri?
A: That was the time when Nicole answered the phone, you know, June Marcus Allen's wedding. That was the only time I know.
Q: And Nicole told you about this?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you there?
A: No.
Q: She called you up and told you about it?
A: Yes. She said that
Q: What did she tell you?
A: She said that Paula called, and she answered the phone.
Q: This was at Rockingham?
A: Yeah, right, she was at Rockingham.
Q: And what did Nicole tell you transpired in the telephone call with Paula when she picked up the phone?
A: Nothing. She just said that
Q: Nothing?
A: Well, she just you know, she said, "Paula called, and I answered the phone," and that was it.
Q: You mean to tell me Nicole calls you up and says, "Paula called while I was at Rockingham. I answered the phone. Nothing else happened, and now I'm not going to the wedding"?
A: Yeah, she was upset. She says, "I don't believe that that woman's still" "they're still talking to each other."
Q: And she was still upset when she talked to you on the phone about this. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: What did you say, by the way, when she said that to you?
A: I said, "Well" I don't know. I forgot how I reacted, you know.
Q: Well, I would like you to remember now. Can you remember?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: She was upset. She didn't want to attend the wedding.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: She told you this over the telephone?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you try to talk her into going to the wedding?
A: No.
Q: Did you go?
A: No.
Q: Now Mr. Kelly asked you earlier today about your conversations with Nicole concerning the IRS letter, and you said that prior to Withdrawn. You said that the only time or the first time that you heard about the dispute that she and O.J. Simpson were having about the IRS situation occurred when the letter arrived, but not before. Do you recall that testimony?
MR. BAKER: Mischaracterizes her testimony.
THE WITNESS: When the letter arrived?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah. When Nicole got the letter, she called you and told you about it?
A: Exactly, yes.
Q: But in fact you knew about it earlier than that.
A: Earlier than that?
Q: Didn't you, because I questioned you about this, and I told you that Nicole I asked you about Nicole having a very angry exchange with O.J. Simpson at the house on Bundy on June 3 and that Nicole told you about it after it occurred? Do you recall that testimony that you gave?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Let me show you Exhibit 86.
MR. BAKER: Lacks foundation.
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh, yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You see Nicole's notes there, and you see the entry on June 3?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Where O.J. Simpson where Nicole writes that O.J. Simpson said, "You hung up on me last night, bitch." Do you see that?
A: Yeah.
Q: Now, it's true that Nicole Simpson told you about this very ugly exchange with O.J. Simpson that she had with him on the evening of June 3, as you previously
A: I didn't know it was the evening. See it was this in the evening? Or 8:30?
MR. BAKER: Leading and vague.
THE WITNESS: Well, she called me. She called me I'm trying to... Because I remember she called me, and she was upset.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Tell me what she said to you.
A: She said, "I can't believe this man is trying to put me into jail. I'm the mother of, you know, the kids" "I'm the mother of his kids, and he wants me to go to jail."
Q: Did she tell you about
A: The conversation?
Q: Yes.
A: No, no.
Q: So your prior testimony that you gave me is false?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: What prior testimony?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You testified just a day or two ago that she told you about this conversation with O.J. Simpson.
MR. BAKER: Argumentative and leading.
THE WITNESS: No. I just the conversation I thought you mean the conversation, but not all of this, no. She didn't tell me all of this. She told me that she had a fight with O.J.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: She had a fight with O.J.
A: She had an argument with O.J. about this IRS, that she was upset about it, that's all, but she didn't tell me all of this in detail.
Q: She didn't repeat the profanity to you that O.J. Simpson used. Is that what you're saying?
A: Exactly. Yes
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And she-when she told you Excuse me. Do you remember when she told you about this fight with O.J. Simpson about the IRS situation?
A: Did I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question again?
Q: Tell me when she told you about this fight with O.J. Simpson concerning the IRS situation.
MR. BAKER: Mischaracterizes her testimony. She didn't refer
THE WITNESS: She must have told me
MR. BAKER: to it as an argument.
THE WITNESS: that same day.
BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Okay. Because she was still upset about it. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: Because it was during the day, so I don't know what time.
Q: Now, did she tell you that she hung up on O.J. Simpson
A: She hung up?
Q: on June 2 or June 3 or thereabouts?
A: No, I didn't know that. I didn't know that.
Q: Did she ever tell you what O.J. Simpson's reaction was when she hung up on him on telephone conversations?
A: No, I didn't know that.
Q: Okay. Nicole writes in this diary entry here or whatever this document was intended to be that O.J. told her as follows on June 3:
"You hung [sic] up on me last night. You're gonna pay for this, bitch, you're holding money from the IRS, you're going to jail you f-----g c--t. You think that you can do any freaking thing you want, you've got it coming I've already talked to my lawyers about this, bitch and they'll get you for tax evasion bitch I'll see to it. You're not gonna have a f-----g dime left bitch."
Okay? Now, do you know of any reason why Nicole would ever make up such a thing'
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: No, she
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So if she wrote this down and said in her own handwriting that O.J. Simpson said these things to her, do you believe that they are true?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Excuse me?
A: Yes.
Q: Does that shock you, that O.J. Simpson would say those things to her?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative and irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: I'm shocked now because of what I
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You've never seen this before?
A: No.
Q: You mean Mr. Simpson didn't show this to you during your talks at Rockingham?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: He didn't show this to you?
A: No.
Q: He didn't say, "Look, Cora, look what I said to Nicole"?
A: No.
Q: I see. And Mr. Leonard didn't show you this?
A: No. He didn't show me anything.
Q: Do you know who [Name Deleted] is?
A: Yes.
Q: Who is [Name Deleted]?
A: [Name Deleted] is one of the kids from [Name Deleted].
Q: And is that a friend of Sydney?
A: Yes.
Q: So when Nicole wrote here about [Name Deleted] that she was Sydney's girlfriend in the same paragraph about the rest of this material, and that was true also, that [Name Deleted] is a person who is a friend of Sydney. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Where does [Name Deleted] live?
A: Somewheres I don't know.
Q: What is [Name Deleted]'s last name?
A: I don't know. I don't know her name. So I know [Name Deleted], so...
Q: What is [Name Deleted]'s mother's name?
A: I don't know. I don't know. I only know [Name Deleted]. I've seen her once or twice, so...
Q: Have you do you know who [Name Deleted] is?
A: [Name Deleted]?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: [Name Deleted] is also a friend of Sydney?
A: Sydney, yes.
Q: And what is the name of [Name Deleted]'s mother?
A: [Name Deleted]'s mom? [Name Deleted]? Yeah, I don't know.
Q: Have you ever talked to the Berman family about their conversations with Nicole on the evening of June 12th?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever talked to [Name Deleted]'s family about this event on June
A: No.
Q: 3 or 4?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did your child sleep over Nicole's house any time in the month of June of 1994?
A: Any time?
Q: Yes. At Bundy.
A: I'm sure, yes.
Q: Did she sleep over on the evening of June 3 with
A: June 3?
Q: Yes. with Sydney at Bundy?
A: I don't remember, no.
Q: You don't remember?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever seen have you ever met Bruce Clemens, Nicole's divorce lawyer?
A: No.
Q: Nicole ever tell you about being beat up by O.J. Simpson so bad in her house and in the wine closet?
A: No, I didn't know that.
Q: Okay. You recognize this handwriting where Nicole wrote down a number of the beatings she suffered at the hands of O.J. Simpson during her marriage?
MR. BAKER: Lacks foundation. Leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you recognize that handwriting to be Nicole's?
A: Yes.
Q: You surprised Nicole didn't tell you about those things?
MR. BAKER: Irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you have any feel she might have been too embarrassed to tell you?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You can answer.
A: I don't know why, and I question why.
Q: You think she might have been too ashamed to tell you about these things?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. Could be. I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Could be?
A: I don't know.
Q: Could be?
A: Why?
Q: Excuse me?
A: I said "Why? Why didn't she tell me?"
Q: Why do you think she didn't tell you?
A: I don't know. She embarrassed? I don't know.
Q: Would you be embarrassed or ashamed to tell people these things if they happened to you?
A: Would I talk about it?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Would you feel a sense of shame or embarrassment to talk about these things?
MR. BAKER: Leading and irrelevant.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: That a fair statement?
A: I wouldn't talk about it.
Q: Huh?
A: I wouldn't talk about it.
Q: You wouldn't talk about it. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did she tell you about an incident in 1988 when a gay man in Hawaii kissed Justin, and O.J. threw her against the wall in her hotel and on the floor and put bruises on her arms and back? Did she tell you about that event?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did that refresh your recollection at all? Okay.
MR. BAKER: What was your answer?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Does that refresh your recollection as to whether she ever
A: I didn't know about that.
Q: told you about that event?
A: No, never told me.
Q: And she writes here that in 1978 O.J. beat her up for the first time after Louis and Nunie Marx's anniversary party. Do you know who Louis Marx is? Ever hear that name?
A: No.
Q: Okay. "Started on the street corner of New York City [sic] 5th Avenue at about 9:00 o'clock. Threw me on the floor hit me kicked me. We went to Sherry Netherland Hotel where he continued to beat me for hours as I kept crawling for the door. Called my mother a whore." She tell you any of that?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you what O.J. Simpson's feelings towards her mother were?
A: I'm Sorry. What?
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you what O.J. Simpson's feelings and attitude toward Juditha Brown were?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever discuss that with O.J. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did O.J. excuse me. Did you know that O.J. Simpson had lost a child in his prior marriage?
A: Yes.
Q: Who told you that?
A: It was in the news.
Q: Did you ever talk to O.J. Simpson about that?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you about that?
A: Yes, Nicole mentioned that.
Q: Okay. Did she say that O.J. Simpson blamed her for that?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you about an incident where O.J. Simpson, and I am reading from her notes here, "smashed my car (white Mercedes) with baseball bat after visiting [Name Deleted]"?
A: No.
Q: "He greeted me at the gate I was too afraid to get out of the car. He did it because I was late, about 7 to [sic] 8 p.m. Westec Security was notified and came. Also the West LAPD came." Do you know anything about that?
A: No.
Q: Do you know who [Name Deleted] is?
A: [Name Deleted]?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: And who is [Name Deleted]?
A: She was a friend of Nicole.
Q: Is [Name Deleted] related to [Name Deleted]?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that the wife of [Name Deleted]?
A: No. The daughter.
Q: The daughter of [Name Deleted]?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: That's a friend of Nicole's?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. She never told you about that incident?
A: No.
Q: The next item on Exhibit 88, from which I'm reading, says:
"Michael Millitello's wedding at Ritz Carlton. O.J. lost his temper at the beach house hit me, threw me up against the walls. Threw my camera, it broke the paneling the moldings off the doors to the master bedroom and garage door." Did she ever tell you about that incident?
A: No.
Q: Do you know who Michael Millitello is?
A: No.
Q: Name mean anything to you.,
A: No.
Q: What about Eric and Val Von Watts? That name
A: No.
Q: mean anything to you? Nicole wrote to her lawyer, Bruce Clemens, in sending these materials over to him:
"The [sic] dates are almost impossible for me to remember. These are the most memorable times there were plenty of small times where he'd just pushed me or grabbed me hard enough to bruise my arms but they happened so often that I can't remember specifics Nicole." Did you ever see O.J. Simpson push Nicole or grab her?
A: No.
Q: Of course, you never saw Withdrawn. Did you learn of any dispute or argument between Ron Fischman and Nicole about your going out with [Name Deleted]?
A: Do I know?
Q: Yeah. This is not the incident on June 11
A: No.
Q: but prior in time.
A: No.
Q: When Ron and Nicole had an argument, and then Nicole called O.J. Simpson up and asked O.J. Simpson to speak to Ron?
A: I didn't know that.
Q: You knew nothing about that?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You were not at the Jenners' Christmas party in 1993
A: No.
Q: correct? Did you tell O.J. Simpson that when the prosecutors interviewed you in this case, they tried to slant your testimony or make you lie? Did you tell that to O.J. Simpson that the prosecutors
A: They didn't make me lie, but they trying to accuse me of saying, "How could you be Nicole's friend if you don't know anything about the abuse?" I said, "But, you know, I never saw it."
Q: You never saw it. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: That doesn't mean it didn't happen. Right?
MR. BAKER: Leading and argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I never saw I thought it didn't happen, so
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now that I have shown you those notes of Nicole's, you don't have any reason to believe that Nicole made all that up, do you?
A: I don't think so.
MR. BAKER: Leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You don't think so, do you?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask O.J. Simpson to have some footballs signed in 1994 and that he refused to do so for you? Do you recall that incident?
A: Well, it was sitting there, and then he just I thought he just, you know, he didn't sign it.
Q: You asked him to have the footballs signed for you.
A: Well, no, I didn't what happened was, I had Gigi said, "If he has time, could you please sign these." These were not, you know these were from a friend of mine.
Q: And he was upset with you, and he didn't sign them initially. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: So at the time I didn't know he was upset with me.
MR.PETROCELLI: Okay. Hold on. We need to change tapes real fast. We are almost finished.
THEVIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 1 of Volume III. The time is approximately 12:44, and we are off the record.
(Brief recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 12:47. This is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume III.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, before the tape change I was asking you about an incident where you had requested O.J. Simpson to sign footballs, and you learned that he would not do so because he was upset with you. Could you relate that incident to us and tell us when it occurred?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: I just found out later on when Nicole told me that O.J. was upset with me, but I thought he was just busy because he was out of town, and I had left that you know, I told Gigi to have him sign those.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Why did Nicole Excuse me. Did Nicole tell you why O.J. was upset with you?
A: At that time I thought that because of my affair.
Q: Do you know why Mr. Simpson would be upset with you about your affair, particularly since he had a history of infidelity on his own part?
MR. BAKER: Speculation. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Because he thought that the reason why Nicole was going out he thought that we were always going out, Nicole and I.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: He was in other words, you got the feeling that O.J. Simpson was blaming you for Nicole's independence from him and her going out.
A: Exactly.
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: All of the, you know
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: All the going out.
A: Right.
Q: And you feel and you got the sense that O.J. Simpson was blaming you in part for the problems he was having in his relationship with Nicole. Correct?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Speculation. Leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And that's what Nicole told you. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you believe you did play a part in O.J. Simpson's problems with Nicole during this time?
A: No, I don't think so.
Q: So you think O.J. Simpson was off base, then?
MR. BAKER: Vague.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I think so.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, you were spending substantial amounts of time with [Name Deleted]
A: That's
Q: throughout May and June of 1994. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Irrelevant
THE WITNESS: What do you
MR. BAKER: vague.
THE WITNESS: mean "substantial"?
(Discussion held off the record.) (Pending question read.)
MR. BAKER: Okay. Irrelevant and vague.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You may answer.
A: May and June, you said?
Q: Yes.
A: Not substantial amount. What do you mean, "substantial amount"?
Q: Several times a week. Three or four days a week.
A: Yes.
Q: You were not home very often. Correct?
A: I was home most of the time, yes.
Q: Didn't O.J. Simpson blow up with you in a telephone call when you were pressing him to sign the footballs?
MR. BAKER: Vague and leading.
THE WITNESS: Blow up?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah. Didn't he have a conversation with you in which he was upset with you and told you so when you had asked him about the footballs?
A: I never asked about the footballs.
Q: Did you have a conversation with him in May or June of 1994 in which he was upset with you?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered. Leading.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You don't remember any conversations with him in which he was upset with you.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that what you're saying?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered. Leading.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember, because no, I don't remember, no.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: By the way, that incident that Mr. Kelly asked you about this morning concerning Tryst, when you left the restaurant, was there anyone else there in your party?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Was there anyone else there?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In your party's still there at the table, right.
A: We all left at the same time.
Q: So the answer is no?
A: No.
Q: Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes.
Q: It's true that you bolted out of there, you were so upset. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Who was upset?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You were.
A: I was not upset.
Q: At O.J. Simpson's reaction and his behavior.
MR. BAKER: Argumentative
THE WITNESS: I was not upset.
MR. BAKER: asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: We had a good time then.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you remember an incident at Los Brisas or Las Brisas where you were with Faye Resnick, Nicole, Cici and Ron Fischman and O.J. Simpson and Christian Reichardt in which the Simpsons started going on a tirade against smoking? Do you remember that?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative. Vague. Leading.
THE WITNESS: What's "tirade" mean? It's like angry and stuff?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes, angry
A: No, it was not-it was a conversation. I wouldn't say an angry conversation, no.
Q: But he was protesting the smoking by the women. Right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And he got so loud that the women got up and walked out of the restaurant. True?
MR. BAKER: Leading
THE WITNESS: No
MR. BAKER: argumentative.
THE WITNESS: that's not true.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you get up to leave because he was speaking so loudly?
Q: No. We got up because no. They got up first. Faye and Nicole got up first and to have to smoke, and that was it, and then I followed them.
Q: So while Simpson is ranting and raving about smoking, Nicole and Faye get up to go out and have a cigarette.
MR. BAKER: Argumentative
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that right?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative
THE WITNESS: No
MR. KRAMER: Let him finish his objection.
MR. BAKER: Argumentative. Vague. Leading.
You can answer.
THE WITNESS: It wasn't that way, no. It wasn't that ranting and raving. We were just we were talking, you know. There was no argument then.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Not at all.
A: No.
Q: It was a friendly, pleasant, affable discussion. Is that
A: No
Q: what you're saying?
A: I wouldn't say friendly. It was like we were debating the pros and con of smoking.
Q: What was Simpson's point of view in that debate?
A: That he doesn't like he's a non-smoker.
Q: He didn't like Nicole smoking. True?
A: He didn't like Nicole smoking, yeah.
Q: He would never buy her a cigarette lighter, would he?
MR. BAKER: Speculation. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: (No audible response.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you ever see him
MR. KELLY: Was there an answer I'm sorry. Was there an answer to that?
MR. PETROCELLI: I'm waiting for the answer.
THE WITNESS: Oh, I didn't know I thought you were just
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: He wouldn't buy her based on what you observed and knew of Mr. Simpson's position about Nicole's smoking, you don't think he would buy her a cigarette lighter, do you?
MR. BAKER: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I guess so.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You guess what?
A: Why would someone buy someone I don't know. I mean, why would if you're a non-smoker
Q: Exactly. That wouldn't make sense to you. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: You ever see a gold Cartier cigarette lighter that Nicole got in the last months of her life?
A: I never saw that. I didn't see it.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER:
Q: On June 14th what time did you arrive at the Bundy condo?
MR. KRAMER: This is the Tuesday?
MR. BAKER: The Tuesday.
Q: June 14th, what time did you arrive at the Bundy condo?
A: Later afternoon.
Q: Who was there?
A: Who was there?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: The Browns I mean, you know the girls, Tanya, Denise and Dominique, and then A.C. and Ron Hardy..
Q: And how long had they been there? Do you know?
A: When I was there, they were all there already, so I don't know how long.
Q: Did anyone tell you what time they arrived on June 14th?
A: I don't know what time, no. Nobody told me.
Q: How did you get into the condominium on June 14?
A: The gate was open because Ron Hardy was cleaning the front yard.
Q: The gate was open on Bundy?
A: Yeah.
Q: And Ron Hardy was kind of cleaning the walkway?
A: Right.
Q: How was he cleaning it?
A: Hosing it.
Q: Did you talk to him while he was hosing the walkway?
A: No, not really, no.
Q: He was just using one of the hoses
A: Yeah, right.
Q: around the condo? And he was spraying the walkway beside Nicole's condominium. True?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And he was spraying all around the walkway around the condominium. True?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection to this question as leading and the prior one as leading. Move to strike the answer.
MR. BAKER: Did you get her answer?
THE REPORTER: No.
THE WITNESS: What? I'm sorry.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q: And he was spraying all around the condominium. True?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection
THE WITNESS: True.
MR. PETROCELLI: leading. You have to give me time to object.
MR.BAKER: Did you get her answer, Dave?
THE REPORTER: Yes.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q: Who else was outside cleaning around the condominium?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did anyone say they had found anything unusual outside the condominium on June 14th?
A: No.
Q: How much of Nicole's condominium had been packed by the time you arrived there?
A: Almost everything already.
Q: So it appeared to you that they had been there for quite a long time. True?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
THE WITNESS: True.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q: And what portions of the condominium did you pack?
A: Upstairs.
Q: Who were you packing that with?
A: I was upstairs, and then A.C. walked upstairs, too.
Q: And had the upstairs been pretty much packed up by the time you got there?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall what you packed of Nicole's belongings?
A: Her closet and, you know, her lingerie and everything, you know, whatever was in that bathroom closet.
Q: What did you pack of hers other than clothing?
A: That was pretty much...
Q: And what did you put it in?
A: Trash bag.
Q: Who did you give those trash bags to?
A: To A.C. Gave everything to A.C.
Q: And were the trash bags all kind of grouped together downstairs?
A: Yes.
Q: And Juditha was there. Correct?
A: I don't remember, no. I don't know.
Q: Do you remember Lou being there?
A: I think Lou was there.
Q: And Dominique was there?
A: Right.
Q: And Denise was there?
A: Yes.
Q: And who else was there?
A: Ron Hardy.
Q: Do you know why Ron Hardy was washing the walkway?
A: Why?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: I don't know. I guess cleaning up, so I don't know.
Q: Was the area around the walkway all wet when you were there on June 14th?
A: Yes. It was pretty much clean already.
Q: They had cleaned it up?
A: Yes.
Q: And was the water around the walkway clean up and down the walkway
A: Yes.
Q: to the back gate?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Is that a yes?
A: Yes.
Q: So the back gate was wet. True?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you said earlier that you saw some paw prints when you arrived at Nicole's condominium
A: Yes.
Q: on June 13. True?
A: True.
Q: Where did you see those paw prints?
A: Driveway, all the way to the sidewalk around all over.
Q: And the paw prints came down the driveway.
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading.
THE WITNESS: Not driveway. Where the gate is.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q: Okay.
A: Okay? To the front you know, the sidewalk.
Q: And the paw prints went in which direction?
A: Going going south.
Q: Towards Wilshire?
A: Towards Wilshire.
Q: Was anybody else cleaning up the outside of the condominium that you saw?
A: Oh, you know who was there, too? Ralph.
Q: Ralph who?
A: Ralph, you know, Maria's husband.
Q: Oh, Rolf. Rolf.
A: Rolf. Rolf. Yeah.
Q: And what was he doing?
A: He was outside.
Q: He was outside cleaning up.
A: Yes, with Ron.
Q: How was he cleaning up the outside walkway?
A: He was there, you know. He was cleaning up. They were both outside.
Q: Was he washing the area down?
A: Yes. Pretty much they were.
Q: Was there any police tape around the walkway on June 14th?
A: At that time, no more.
Q: Were there any police officers around?
A: No more.
Q: Did you talk to Rolf on June 14th?
A: No.
Q: How long did you spend at her condominium on June 14th?
A: Oh, I would say an hour.
Q: But by the time you had gotten there, the apartment was pretty much all cleaned up. True?
A: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading. Move to strike the answer.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q: Did you take anything with you?
A: No.
Q: Did Alvia or how do you pronounce
A: Alvia.
Q: Alvia take anything with her?
A: She took her belongings.
Q: Did you see her collect her belongings?
A: No.
Q: And what were her belongings in?
A: It was downstairs in what do you mean? Like in
Q: Did she put them in a trash bag?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did anybody look through the belongings that she took on that day that you saw?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever met with Mr. Petrocelli outside of my presence regarding this litigation?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever read anything in the past days past two days regarding this litigation?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever been handed any notes or documents to prepare you for your testimony?
A: No.
Q: Have you met Mr. Kelly outside of my presence regarding this litigation?
A: No.
Q: Mr. Brewer?
A: No.
Q: Natasha?
A: No.
Q: Peter Gelblum.
A: Who is Peter?
Q: Man with the beard who came in every once in a while.
A: No.
Q: Now, you were shown Exhibit 165,which was the transcript of your interview with Barbara Walters. True?
A: True.
Q: And when you sat with Barbara Walters, they taped a great deal of your interview. True?
A: True.
Q: And did-what they showed on TV, was that everything that you said to Barbara Walters?
A: Pretty much, yes.
Q: Every single comment you said to Barbara Walters in your interview was aired on the show "20/20"?
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading
THE WITNESS: Everything?
MR. PETROCELLI: and argumentative.
MR.KRAMER: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I mean, when you mean "everything," I mean, we talked afterwards and we talked prior to that, so
BY MR. BAKER:
Q: When they turned on the cameras
A: Yes.
Q: and they had you speaking with Barbara Walters and when they strut off the cameras, when you eventually saw that program on TV, did they show your entire interview with Barbara Walters?
A: They showed entire interview? Yes.
Q: Every single clip, every single question she asked you was shown on the "20/20" show.
MR.KELLY: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. PETROCELLI: Compound. Leading, argumentative and
MR. KELLY: Harassing the witness.
MR. PETROCELLI: asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q: Do you remember how long your interview with Miss Walters was?
A: I would say an hour, less than an hour, something like that.
Q: 45 minutes?
A: Yeah.
Q: Have you ever talked spoken with Rolf since you saw him on June 14th?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever spoken with Ron Hardy since you saw him on June 14th?
A: Yes.
Q: When?
A: The day after I did the Barbara Walters or after the Barbara Walters episode was shown.
Q: What did he say to you?
A: Well, I called him up because I was upset with him.
Q: Why were you upset with him?
A: Because he went to "Inside" one of the "Inside Edition" and made a comment how what kind of a friend I was to be revealing all of these things about Nicole.
Q: And you were upset with him because you were telling the truth in that interview with Barbara Walters. True?
A: Well, because I said, "If I ever talked, I am going to tell the truth," yes.
Q: Any other conversations with Ron Hardy?
A: That was the last time.
Q: Do you believe O.J. Simpson's a good father?
A: I would say he was a good father, yes.
Q: Do you still believe he's a good father?
A: Yes.
Q: This coffee shop that Nicole was going to open up, did she tell you where she was going to open this coffee shop up?
A: Did she tell me?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: No. First she talked about the one by Starbucks in Santa Monica, but that was it.
Q: When did she tell you about that?
A: She told me at some point in time that she was going to open a business, something...
Q: And she wanted
A: She mentioned that to O.J., too, at some point, so...
Q: And she wanted to open it up in Brentwood?
A: Yes.
Q: Right by the Starbucks on San Vicente?
A: Right.
Q: And this coffee shop that she wanted to open up in Brentwood in the San Vicente area?
A: Right.
Q: And when did she want to open that coffee shop up?
A: When?
MR. PETROCELLI: Lacks foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. She thought about it, so I don't know when.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q: When did she tell you about this?
A: Oh, she told me again like around '94. I don't know when. Q: Did you take Alvia home on June 14th after you left Nicole's condo?
A: No.
Q: How did she get home? Do you know?
A: I think it was Lou. Lou took her home.
Q: Were people waving up and down the walkway on June 14th?
A: Walkway?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: Yes.
Q: Did anybody go out the back gate that you saw?
A: No, I didn't see anybody.
Q: Did you see anybody walk through the garage?
A: Well, the garage door was open. That's where the cars were, the two Cherokee, and it was already full of
Q: Okay.
A: Nicole's belongings.
Q: How did you leave
A: How did I leave?
Q: the Bundy condo on June 14th?
A: I left the front, front gate.
Q: You walked out of her front door walked down the walkway and walked out the front gate.
A: Right.
Q: And Ron and Rolf were still out there cleaning. True?
A: At that time, yes, they were still out.
Q: So the entire time that you were in Nicole's condo on June 14th, Rolf and Ron were cleaning the outside area. True?
A: True.
Q: And you were there more than an hour?
A: I would say not more that an hour, no. It was
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection to the last two questions as leading. Move to strike the answers.
THE WITNESS: I would say about an hour, yes.
BY MR. BAKER:
Q: About an hour? What did you say to them when you were leaving? Do you remember?
A: I don't remember.
Q: When Ron Goldman or when Nicole told you that Ron had driven Nicole's car, what time of day was that?
A: When Ron Goldman drove the car?
Q: Yes.
A: It was in the evening.
Q: Okay. It was dark out?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, in your interview with Michael Viner on page 25, you state, "I never saw Nicole with bruises." At page 25, line 10. You were telling the truth to Michael Viner. True?
A: True.
MR. BAKER: I've got nothing further.
MR. PETROCELLI: Nothing further at this point.
MR. KELLY: Oh, just can you pick me up just speaking here?
EXAMINATION BY MR. KELLY:
Q: When you arrived at Bundy on the 14th, could you tell me where Ron Hardy was with the hose when you saw him?
A: He was outside by the how do I say this.
Q: Okay. Well, relative to the front gate.
A: Relative to the front gate, he was on the north side oh, no.
Q: Was he closer to the street or closer to the condominium?
A: Closer to the well, closer to the gate. Because he was hosing like this (Indicating) to the
Q: He was by the gate hosing towards the front street. Would that be fair to say?
A: Right. Uh-huh.
Q: Okay. And when you passed him, you went up the front stairs and went in the front door. Is that correct?
A: I went to the front door?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: Is that the sliding glass door in the very front?
A: Sliding glass door?
Q: Yeah. Or the door facing the very front of Bundy. There are two front doors, are there not?
A: No, there's only one entrance: The front door.
Q: And that's on the side of the condominium there?
A: The side door is the one downstairs, but the front door of the condominium is the front, you know, there's a door. There's a gate, you walk in two steps, and then there's a front door.
Q: On the left side there.
A: Right.
Q: Okay. Right as you get to the corner of the condominium.
A: Right.
Q: Okay. And when you came and you didn't go back along the side way, to the side of the condominium, did you at all?
A: I don't remember. All I knew is I walked inside the house, so inside the condo.
Q: Okay. Did you look down that sidewalk?
A: No.
Q: Towards the rear?
A: The whole place was wet, so
Q: Okay. Did you walk back towards the back gate at all?
A: Back gate? I don't remember. I don't think so.
Q: You didn't touch the back gate?
A: No.
Q: You didn't go near the back gate?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Vague.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. And you don't even recall looking at the back gate, do you?
A: If I don't recall?
Q: Do you recall even looking at the back gate?
A: No, I don't think so.
Q: Okay. And when you came back downstairs after approximately an hour, where was Ron Hardy at that time?
A: They were still outside.
Q: In the front there?
A: They were yeah.
Q: Okay. And Rolf was still in the front also?
A: Yeah, they were both outside.
Q: Okay. You never saw them cleaning anywhere but in that front gate area, did you?
A: I never saw them? No, I never saw them.
Q: Okay. And one other thing: When you called Ron Hardy, you called him because isn't it a fact that he had told the producer, Barbara Walters, that you were not a real friend of Nicole's and that the Brown family didn't support you?
A: Well, the Browns wanted me to talk to Barbara Walters. I didn't want to talk to Barbara Walters.
Q: Right.
A: But then what they told me was, "You cannot talk about the lesbian affair." I said, "You're putting me" "if they're gonna ask me questions, all I can say is tell the truth. I cannot deny anything.
Q: Well, you didn't know about the lesbian affair from yourself, did you?
A: From myself?
Q: I mean, you didn't have personal knowledge of that.
A: I don't have personal knowledge
Q: Okay.
A: but both of them told me.
Q: Go on. I'm sorry.
A: That's all.
Q: Did you say anything to Ron Hardy to the effect of, "You don't know who you're messing with, and you're gonna be sorry for telling those people that"?
A: No, I didn't say that. I said, "How could you do that?" you know. "I mean, who are you?" I mean, you know, I was upset with him, yes. I was upset with him.
Q: Okay. But do you recall saying, "You don't know who you're messing with, and you're gonna be sorry for saying that"?
A: No, I never said that.
MR. KELLY: Okay. I have no further questions.
MR. BAKER: The entire walkway was wet when you were there on June 14th?
THE WITNESS: Yes. They were all cleaning, yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Objection. Leading. Move to strike the answer.
MR. BAKER: No further questions.
MR. PETROCELLI: The witness keeps answering before I can object. Can we have a stipulation to relieve the court reporter of his duties. The original transcript will be sent to Mr. Kramer on behalf of the witness. The witness will have 30 days from your receipt, Mr. Kramer, within which to review and sign the manuscript, and if it is not returned to us within 30 days after your receipt, then all parties stipulate that the manuscript can be used for all purposes in this case as though it had been signed, and it may be signed under penalty of perjury?
MR. KRAMER: That's fine. If the witness and there wasn't the standard admonition. If the witness deems it appropriate to make changes, those changes will be made to the original, and I will return the original to you, Mr. Petrocelli.
And I am not assuming an obligation to advise other counsel of the changes unless they are all going to be listed on the manuscript. I don't know all the counsel involved. So, Mr. Petrocelli
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, send those to me. But let me caution the witness that if, you know, you make any changes in that deposition transcript, we can comment on those, and those comments may be used to impeach you. Okay?
MR. BAKER: You going to give her admonitions after three days?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: What does "impeach" mean? You mean I go to jail?
MR. PETROCELLI: Don't know about that. Thank you very much, Miss Fischman.
MR. BAKER: Thank you.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Cora A. Fischman, Volume III. The number of videotapes used was two. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 1:12.
(ENDING TIME: 1:12 P.M.)
I DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT.
SUBSCRIBED AT______________________, CALIFORNIA, THIS _ DAY OF _, 19_.
CORA A. FISCHMAN