SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
SHARON RUFO,
Plaintiff,
v.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON et al.,
Defendants
FREDRIC GOLDMAN, etc., et al.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al.,
Defendants
LOUIS H. BROWN, etc.,
Plaintiffs,
vs.
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON,
Defendant.
Videotaped deposition of CORA A. FISCHMAN, taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard, 10th Floor, Los Angeles, California, commencing at 9:48 a.m., on Tuesday, March 19, 1996, before David S. Coleman, CSR #4613, pursuant to Subpoena.
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS FREDRIC GOLDMAN, ET AL:
MITCHELL, SILBERBERG & KNUPP
BY: DANIEL M. PETROCELLI, ESQ.
11377 West Olympic Boulevard
Sixth Floor
Los Angeles, California 90064-1683
FOR THE PLAINTIFF ESTATE OF BROWN:
JOHN QUINLAN KELLY, ESQ.
330 Madison Avenue
New York, New York 10017-5090
(212) 682-1700
-and-
NATASHA ROIT, ESQ.
116 North Robertson Boulevard
Suite 705
Los Angeles, California 90048
FOR THE PLAINTIFF SHARON RUFO
HORNBERGER & CRISWELL
BY: MICHAEL A. BREWER, ESQ.
444 South Flower Street
Third-First Floor
Los Angeles, California 90071
FOR THE DEFENDANT ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON:
BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER
BY: PHILLIP A. BAKER
2850 Ocean Park Boulevard
Suite 300
Santa Monica, California 90405-2936
FOR THE WITNESS:
KRAMER & McSHANE
PHILIP A. KRAMER, ESQ.
12100 Wilshire Boulevard
Suite 850
Los Angeles, California 90405
ALSO PRESENT: ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON
WITNESS:
CORA A. FISCHMAN - VOLUME 1
Examination by Mr. Petrocelli
UNANSWERED QUESTIONS:
(None)
EXHIBITS:
Plaintiffs' Description Identified
151 Deposition Subpoena For Personal Appearance and Production of Documents and Things dated February 2, 1996, 5 pages
152 Photograph
153 Photograph
154 Photograph
155 Photograph
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Here begins videotape No. 1 in the deposition of Cora A. Fischman in the consolidated cases of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs. Orenthal James simpson in the Superior Court, State of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is SC 031947.
Today's date is Tuesday, March 19, 1996. The time is approximately 9:48.
This deposition is being taken at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California and was made at the request of plaintiff of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp.
The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed hy Coleman, Haas, Martin & Schwab of Los Angeles, California.
Would counsel please identify yourselves and state whom you represent.
MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for Plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MR. BREWER: Mike Brewer for Plaintiff Sharon Rufo.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly for Plaintiff Brown.
MS. ROIT: Natasha Roit for Plaintiff Brown.
MR. BAKER: Phil Baker for O.J. Simpson.
MR. KRAMER: Philip Kramer for witness Cora Fischman.
CORA A. FISCHMAN, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Good morning, Miss Fischman.
A: Good morning.
Q: You understand you are under oath?
A: Uh-huh, yes.
Q: You understand you are subject to the same penalties of perjury as though you were testifying in a court of law?
A: Yes.
Q: You have to speak up --
A: Yes.
Q: -- so everyone around the table can hear you. Have you been examined under oath at all hefore in your life?
A: Yes.
Q: On how many occasions?
A: Once.
Q: When was that?
A: A month ago.
Q: In what proceeding?
A: A lawsuit pending, National Enquirer.
Q: You filed the lawsuit?
A: Yeah.
Q: Who is representing you in that case?
A: Mr. Kramer.
Q: And who is the defendant?
A: Who is the defendant?
Q: National Enquirer?
A: National Enquirer.
Q: How many depositions have been taken in that case?
A: One.
Q: Just yours?
A: Yes.
Q: What's the subject matter of that case?
A: It's about pictures stolen by my housekeeper, and they used it.
Q: Who --
A: The National Enquirer used a picture that was taken from my residence.
Q: Who was the housekeeper?
A: Alvia.
Q: What is Alvia's last name?
A: Alionzo.
Q: Where is Alvia now?
A: I don't know.
Q: What picture did Alvia take?
A: It's a Christmas picture of the Simpsons in December of '93.
Q: Who is in the photograph?
A: Simpson -- Nicole, O.J., Sydney and Justin.
Q: How do you know Alvia took the photograph and gave it to the National Enquirer?
A: Because she -- that was in our family room, the picture was in our family room, and it was gone, and when it was -- when the picture was in the National Enquirer, I never saw that lady again. She never showed up at our house.
Q: Who?
A: Alvia Alionzo.
Q: Did you sue Alvia?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: I'm going to object. This is entirely --
MR. PETROCELLI: Did you ask Alvia -- Excuse me.
MR. BAKER: Let me put my objection on the record.
MR. PETROCELLI: Please. Go ahead.
MR. BAKER: This is entirely irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you sue Alvia?
A: No.
Q : Have you ever asked Alvia whether she took the picture?
A: I never spoke to her. She never showed up.
Q: When was Alvia working in your home?
A: When?
Q: Yeah.
A: On -- during the time when she worked for Nicole, and she worked for me on weekends, and then when Nicole died I hired her full time because she didn't have a job.
Q: When did you first have Alvia work in your home part time while she was still working for Nicole? Can you give me a time frame, please?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Month? Year? Anything?
A: Well, it was during the time when Nicole moved to Bundy, so --
Q: It was after that?
A: I would say a month after, you know.
Q: February of 1994?
A: You can say that.
Q: Is that your best recollection?
A: Probably around that time, yeah.
Q: And when did Alvia last work in your house?
A: When?
Q: Yeah.
A: That picture was the -- the first photo was in October, so any time before that. September. September of '94.
Q: The picture was in October, what do you mean by that?
A: She stole -- you said when --
Q: Yeah, when was the last time Alvia worked in your home?
A: Well, probably around September.
Q: Of '94.
A: Of '94.
Q: When was the photograph taken?
A: December of 1993.
Q: And who took it?
A: I'm not sure.
MR. KRAMER: You are asking who took the photograph?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Who took the photograph. Excuse me. Who shot the photograph?
A: I did.
Q: You did. Is that the only subject matter of this lawsuit, is the taking of that --
A: Yes.
Q: -- photograph?
A: Yes.
MR. KRAMER: Well, I --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is there anything else in that lawsuit that you are contending having to do in any way, shape or form with Nicole Brown Simpson or O.J. Simpson?
MR. BAKER: I am going to object as irrelevant and calls for a legal conclusion.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You can answer.
A: I'm sorry.
MR. PETROCELLI: You want to repeat the question?
Q: Let me make something clear: You will hear lawyers objecting from time to time. You are to disregard those objections, unless your own lawyer tells you not to answer a question. Okay?
A: Okay.
MR. PETROCELLI: Read the question back, please.
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q. Is there anything else in that lawsuit that you are contending having to do in any way, shape or form with Nicole Brown Simpson or O.J. Simpson?")
MR. KRAMER: If you know. He is asking your understanding.
THE WITNESS: No, that's it. It's just a picture.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Just about the picture?
A: Yeah.
Q: How long was your deposition?
THE WITNESS: How long was my deposition?
MR. KRAMER: He is asking -- I am not -- he is asking for your recollection.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah, just yours. You can't go to your lawyer for answers during the deposition.
A: About two hours.
Q: Do you have a copy of it, a written copy of it?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you bring it with you?
A: No.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. I think it's responsive to the subpoena. I would ask that it be produced tomorrow. I'd be happy to make a copy of it.
MR. BAKER: Could I see that subpoena?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah. I am going to ask her some questions about it, about all the documents here.
Q: Is that the only deposition you've ever given?
A: Yes.
Q: So I take it you've never been examined under oath about this case at all?
A: No.
Q: Or about the facts and circumstances surrounding Nicole's death. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Have you ever made any public statements in the form of interviews or other lengthy statements about the facts and circumstances of this case?
A: I've done a couple.
Q: What have you done?
A: I don't remember -- I mean, I did Barbara Walters. I did HARD COPY when they did -- for Nicole's birthday, we did a little bit of a -- who Nicole was.
Q: Barbara Walters and HARD COPY did interviews that aired on television. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes. Yes. I don't know. A few of the television [sic]. You know, Channel 2 when they walked into my house.
Q: Channel 2 walked into your house?
A: Oh, yeah, Harvey Levin.
Q: Harvey Levin?
A: Yes. Walked into my house.
Q: And you did an interview with him at that time?
A: Well, I had no choice. He put the mike right in front of my face, so...
Q: So the answer is yes?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Any others?
A: I'm thinking. I think that's about it.
Q: Have you issued any interviews in print?
A: In print?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yeah. I did -- we did before the -- that was the Christmas story. The Star did an article about my Christmas celebration with Simpson.
Q: Which Christmas?
A: Christmas of '93.
Q: Star Magazine?
A: Star Magazine.
Q: They did a story for which you were interviewed?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay.
A: No, they didn't interview me, but they wrote an article about it.
Q: Were you interviewed?
A: I was not --
Q: Quoted?
A: Yes, I was interviewed, yeah.
Q: Okay. So besides Star Magazine, are there any other print materials or publications for which you were interviewed?
A: Well, you know, the lady who did -- Sheila Weller, who did "Raging Heart," I spoke to her one time.
Q: One time?
A: And then New York -- oh, no, not New York Times, but L.A. Times.
Q: L.A. Times interviewed you?
A: Yes.
Q: On how many occasions?
A: They just did one article about Nicole.
Q: Any others?
A: That's it.
MR. KRAMER: You're asking about interviews for publications? Is that the scope of your question?
MR.PETROCELLI: As opposed to what, Mr. Kramer?
MR. KRAMER: As opposed to having meetings, interviews in connection with the underlying criminal case and --
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes, publications, any kind of media.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, well --
MR. KRAMER: You understood that to be the question?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Not for lawyers. I will get into lawyers.
A: These are just interviews that they --
Q: Press, media people.
A: Yes, exactly. That's fine.
Q: Okay. You get paid for any of this?
A: The Star.
Q: How much did the Star pay you?
A: They paid me fifteen for that.
Q: Fifteen what?
A: 15,000.
Q: What did you do for $15,000?
A: What did I do?
Q: Yeah, what did you do?
A: Well, I wrote a -- they wrote an article about what we did at Christmas because I wanted to -- at that time I wanted a good story about Nicole. I was just tired of all this bad things about Nicole, and I thought that I would say something about the type of family these people were.
Q: Which people?
A: I mean the Simpsons.
Q: You were tired of --
A: I was tired --
Q: You were tired of hearing bad things about Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: And you wanted to set the record straight and get out some information
A: Good information.
Q: Good?
A: Yes.
Q: About whom?
A: About Nicole and the family. I mean the Simpsons.
Q: When did you do this interview with Star Magazine, Miss Fischman?
A: Around that time, November of '94.
Q: How many hours did you spend on the interview?
MR. KRAMER: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: How many hours?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah. How much time did you spend for which you received $15,000?
A: I don't know. I don't remember. It wasn't that long. I mean...
Q: A day?
A: No, it wasn't a day.
Q: A couple of hours?
A: I would say an hour.
Q: An hour. Okay. Did you ever receive any other money?
MR. BAKER: In what -- from a tabloid?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: From anybody in connection with --
A: That's about it.
Q: -- the murder of Nicole.
A: No, that's it.
Q: $15,000? You have to stay in the center of the camera. You are shifting from the view. Now, did you -- do you have any contracts to receive any consideration of any kind regarding your story, Nicole's story?
A: I don't have any contract at all.
Q: Do you have anything in negotiation?
A: Negotiation?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes.
Q: What do you have in negotiation?
A: I'm in the process of writing a book.
Q: Okay. When did you begin writing the book?
A: I would say about three weeks ago.
MR. KELLY: I am sorry. I can't hear you.
THE WITNESS: Three weeks ago.
MR. KELLY: Thank you.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And how many pages have you written?
A: How many pages have I written?
Q: Yes.
A: I haven't written anything.
Q: Have you recorded anything?
A: I have not recorded anything.
Q: Have you done any sessions? Have you sat with anybody?
A: I have a writer. I'm collaborating with a writer.
Q: Who is your writer?
A: Jean Strauss.
Q: How do you spell that?
A: J-e-a-n S-t-r-a-u-s-s.
Q: Do you have a book agent?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Who is the book agent?
A: Mr. John Taylor Williams.
Q: And who is he with?
A: Palmer & Dodge.
MR. KELLY: I am sorry. With who?
MR. PETROCELLI: Palmer & Dodge.
Q: Can you speak up? Mr. Kelly is having trouble hearing you.
A: Okay. Palmer and Dodge.
Q: Palmer and Dodge, John Taylor Williams. Where is his office?
A: In Boston, Massachusetts.
Q: Who is the publisher?
A: I don't have publisher yet.
Q: You have no publisher?
A: No.
Q: Did you get an advance?
A: No.
Q: Have you talked to any publishers?
A: No.
Q: Has your book agent talked to any publishers?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any other representatives who were involved with your efforts to write and sell this book?
A: No.
Q: Just you and Mr. Williams?
A: Yes.
Q: Mr. Kramer involved?
A: No.
Q: Any lawyers?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Is this the first book you have attempted to write about Nicole?
A: I was planning before, but there was no publisher at that time, and because I was subpoenaed for the last year, I didn't -- I put it on hold.
Q: Yon were planning to write a book earlier?
A: Yes.
Q: When?
A: November of '94.
Q: Did you begin to write the book?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a book agent then?
A: No.
Q: Did you have publisher?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a book agent?
A: A book agent?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: You just sat down --
A: Oh, a book agent is a literary agent. Right?
Q: Literary agent, right, someone to represent you.
A: At the time, yes. It was -- it's called Fifi, F-i-f-i, Agency in New York.
Q: F-i-f-i Agency. And who at Fifi was working with you on the book at that time?
A: It was Brooke Skulski was supposed to be my collaborator on that book, but we had a year contract, and it expired November 5th, '95.
Q: So you entered into that contract around November of --
A: November, right.
Q: -- '94?
A: Yes.
Q: You have to let me ask my question because he can't get us both down at same time. Then you can answer, and I won't interrupt you.
So you had a one-year contract with Fifi Agency?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever meet Brooke Skulski?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever do any writing with her?
A: Yes. Not writing. Yeah, we did.
Q: You sat and had sessions with her?
A: Yes.
Q:How many?
A: I don't know. We had two weeks of sessions at that time.
Q: Were they tape-recorded?
A: Yes.
Q: And were any manuscripts produced?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any written material at all?
A: She saw me sample of that.
Q: She what?
A: She gave me a sample of -- you know, she gave me like eight pages of what I said to her.
Q: Just one time --
A: Yes.
Q: -- eight pages?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Nothing else she gave you?
A: Well, that was pretty much. Not more. She couldn't find a publisher, so --
Q: Are you saying that there were only eight pages that were ever written down by Brooke Skulski based on her work with you?
A: That's what she gave me, yes.
Q: Do you know of any other pages that she wrote besides the eight?
A: I don't know.
Q: Have you ever asked to see?
A: I never asked.
Q: Did you ask for the material back when you entered into the contract with John Taplin Williams, who is writing your new book?
A: John Taylor Williams?
Q: John Taylor Williams.
A: Did I ask for the tapes or whatever?
Q: Yes, the tapes or the written materials or anything else that she produced.
A: When that contract expired with Brooke Skulski, I asked for those tapes, and she refused to give it back to me because she said it's her tape.
And I said, you know, "It's my life story," so she -- I don't have possession of it.
Q: What about the eight pages? Where are they?
A: Well, I don't have it anymore.
Q: Threw them away?
A: Yeah.
Q: When did you throw them away?
A: Well, I can find -- I can look in my, you know -- I don't know. I moved --
Q: You were subpoenaed with these materials. You were supposed to bring them here to the deposition today, and I can't complete it without those materials.
A: Okay.
MR. KRAMER: This actually is an ideal time for me to assert certain privacy rights that Cora Fischman has. She told me that she had no documents, and I informed your office or had my associate informed your office.
If it turns out that she does have documents, we are not waiving her rights of privacy protected by Article I, Section 1, of the California Constitution, and I would want to look at whatever documents she has to make certain that the disclosure of those documents don't somehow invade or impede her right of privacy.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Well, that all should have been done before today.
MR. KRAMER: Well, actually the Rutter Group has a section that says that now is the appropriate time for --
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not interested in your lecturing me on the law. I only want to get the documents that I subpoenaed, and it seems to me that you've made no effort to find them, and I am now going to have to examine the witness on what she did to locate these documents.
THE WITNESS: You know, I've moved a couple times --
MR. KRAMER: Hold on. Hold on.
MR. PETROCELLI: We will get into that, how many times you moved. Okay? Let's focus on what we were talking about before.
MR. KRAMER: I have no intention of lecturing you on the law.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
MR. KRAMER: All I want to do is preserve the rights of my client, which I have now done.
MR. PETROCELLI: I have --
MR. BAKER: No concern about the rights of his client?
MR. PETROCELLI: I have no problem with what you want to do on behalf of your client. There is no need to thrust over the table Rutter Group materials to me.
Q: So let's get back to what I was asking you. Where are the eight pages?
A: I don't know.
MR.BAKER: I think she's been asked and answered.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't care.
Q: Answer it again.
A: I said I don't know.
MR. BAKER: You don't care if you are asking questions over and over harassing the witness?
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't care to comment, Mr. Baker. Let's just get on with the deposition. You are just wasting time.
Q: Please, Miss Fischman, answer the question.
A: I said I don't know. But I can look. I will look for it.
Q: Have you looked for anything?
A: Have I looked for anything?
Q: In response to my subpoena.
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Where did you look?
A: Well, you know, I've looked in my boxes. I've moved twice already, so... But I didn't think that was important.
Q: I have subpoenaed every single thing that you have in your possession: Tape-recordings, documents, pieces of paper, notes, calendars, anything at all about O.J. Simpson and about Nicole Brown Simpson --
A: Okay.
Q: -- or anything related in any way to the various issues that are enumerated in the subpoena.
Did you ever see a copy of the subpoena?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. When did you first see it?
A: That subpoena?
Q: Yes.
A: When it was handed to me.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me mark this as Exhibit 1.
(Discussion held off the record.)
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit 151 was marked for identification by the reporter
and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Let me show you Exhibit 151, which is a subpoena duces tecum requesting you to appear here and bring materials with you.
When did you first see a copy of that subpoena or the original of it?
A: When did I see this? The day that the man gave this to me.
Q: And what records did you search?
A: What records did I search? You know, I really never paid attention to it because I thought I didn't have any records of anything, so...
Q: Well, you were required by law to pay attention to it, so will you tonight search everything in your possession, custody and control --
A: Yes.
Q: -- in response to that subpoena?
MR. BAKER: You don't need to take legal advice from Mr. Petrocelli.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Will you do so?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Including photographs, any notes, any handwritten pieces of paper, anything, tape recordings, anything.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Are you aware of any tape recordings that in any way relate to Nicole Brown Simpson or O.J. Simpson?
A: Not aware of any.
Q: Excuse me?
A: I don't know.
MR. KELLY: I'm sorry. I can't hear you, Miss Fischman.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What do you mean, you don't know?
A: What do you mean, aware of tapes?
Q: Yeah. Are there any tape recordings that you've ever made other than the ones that you've mentioned with regards to Brooke Skulski?
A: That's the only one I have.
Q: Okay. The only one you have?
A: I don't have it, but the only one I did, with Brooke Skulski.
Q: That's the only one you're aware of?
A: Yes.
Q: And you think -- Withdrawn. Do you know where those seven or eight pages of manuscripts are?
A: I don't know.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You are going to look?
A: I don't know. Yes, I am going to look.
Q: Where do you live now?
A: On [Address Deleted].
Q: When did you move in there?
A: November of '95.
Q: '95?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you live before that?
MR. KRAMER: Just the street.
THE WITNESS: Goshen.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What's the address on Goshen?
MR. KRAMER: Why do you need to know that?
MR. PETROCELLI: I want to know.
THE WITNESS: [Address Deleted]
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: [Address Deleted]?
MR. BAKER: Just to be clear, there is some concerns that this information gets disseminated. What we have been doing on personal information is having him write it down and kept in the possession of plaintiffs' attorney.
MR. PETROCELLI: There is nothing confidential about a prior address.
MR. KRAMER: This is a prior address. This is why --
MR. BAKER: Well, I'm just -- you are obviously going to ask about the 15th Street address, I assume, and if you do, just so we're clear, that can be handled in a way to protect Miss Fischman's privacy.
MR. KRAMER: Thank you.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You live on 15th Street in Santa Monica now?
A: Yes.
Q: And you lived at [Address Deleted] before?
A: Yes.
Q: How long did you live at Goshen Avenue?
A: One year.
Q: From 11-94 to 11-95?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you live before Goshen Avenue?
A: Rockingham Avenue.
Q: 200?
A: Yes.
Q: How long did you live at [Address Deleted]?
A: Since 1986.
Q: l986 to -94?
A: Right.
Q: Does Ron Fischman still reside there?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Who do you live with currently?
MR. KRAMER: None of your business.
You don't have to answer that.
THE WITNESS: I don't live with anyone. With my children.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: How many children do you have?
A: I have three children.
Q: What are their names?
A: Michael Alan, Leslie Allison and Nicole Adele.
Q: Michael Alan. Correct?
A: Leslie Fisch- -- I mean Leslie Allison.
Q: Allison, right.
A: And Nicole.
Q: What is Nicole's middle name?
A: Adele.
Q: Adele. And how old is Michael Alan?
A: 12.
Q: And how old --
A: 10.
Q: -- is Leslie Allison?
MR. KRAMER: Let him finish his question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And how old is Nicole?
A: Seven.
Q: And they all live with you. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And does anyone else live with you?
MR. BAKER: This is totally irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: No one.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. And have you lived with the three children the entire time at 15th Street in Santa Monica?
A: Entire time?
Q: Yeah, that you've been there.
A: I share it with my husband, so we share custody, so --
Q: And the children stay where?
A: I don't get it.
Q: What I am trying to find outis this: Has anyone else resided with you in Santa Monica --
A: Nobody --
Q: -- other than your children?
A: Exactly.
Q: No one else. Correct?
A: No one else.
Q: And has anyone else resided with you at Goshen Avenue other than your children?
A: Exactly.
Q: Correct?
A: My kids, yes.
Q: Now, you said something about custody. Are you divorced?
A: I'm in the process of getting divorced.
Q: Okay. That's not complete yet?
A: No.
Q: And you became separated from your husband when you moved into Goshen Avenue in November of '94. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And before November of '94 you were at all times residing at 200 North Rockingham?
A: All times?
Q: Up -- down to 1986.
A: No. I lived on Barrington one time in 1990.
Q: For a short period of time?
A: Right.
Q: How long?
A: For six months.
Q: Alone?
A: Yes.
Q: While you were separated from your husband?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. 19- -- in 1990 you lived on Barrington for six months in an apartment.
A: Yes.
Q: And other than that six-month interval, from 1986 until November of 1994 you resided at all times at 200 North Rockingham. Is --
A: Exactly.
Q: -- that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Is Nicole Adele named after Nicole Brown, first name?
A: No.
Q: Nothing to do with her?
A: No.
Q: Who does Ron Fischman currently reside with?
A: Who he does --
Q: (Nods head.)
A: No one.
Q: He lives alone?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. When did you file for divorce?
MR. BAKER: Irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: June of '95.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you file for legal separation before then?
A: No.
Q: So the first legal proceeding was June of '95. Right?
A: Was November. When I moved in November, that was basically -- the lawyer said we were legally separated when I moved out in November.
Q: Were papers filed with the court then?
MR. KRAMER: Whatever your lawyer might have told you, that's between you and your lawyer. Okay?
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Were papers filed in November of '94?
A: No.
Q: Who is your divorce lawyer?
MR. BAKER: Let me just state that the divorce status -- the marital status of a non-party witness is completely out of bounds and totally irrelevant to this litigation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You may answer. What is the name of your divorce lawyer?
A: I'm changing it, so I don't have anyone right now.
Q: Well, who was the last divorce lawyer you had?
A: We have a mediator. His name is Mr. Marsden.
Q: But who is the name of your lawyer?
A: Mr. Weissman.
Q: What's his first name?
A: Ken Weissman.
Q: Okay. And who is Mr. Fischman's lawyer?
A: I don't know. I've forgot his name.
Q: Do you have a new lawyer, divorce lawyer?
A: Planning to, yes.
Q: And what's his or her name?
A: Her name is Miss La Guardia.
Q: First name?
A: Maryanne.
Q: Maryanne?
A: Uh-huh. Yes.
Q: Have any depositions been taken in your divorce case?
A: No.
Q: Now, going back to the time when you were paid $15,000 by Star Magazine, you said that you wanted to say some good things about the Simpsons because bad things were being said about Nicole.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. What bad things were being said about Nicole?
A: Bad things?
Q:Yeah.
A: Well, the way she was portrayed by the media.
Q: How was she being portrayed?
A: How? Just didn't like the way she was portrayed by the tabloid with like this happy-go-lucky woman, you know. That's not the woman that I knew.
Q: Any other bad things that were being said or were portrayed about her that you objected to and wanted to set the record straight about?
A: I don't remember. To me everything was bad when it all came out.
Q: What about her was bad that you specifically objected to that caused you to --
A: Yeah, all the pictures --
Q: Star Magazine?
A: All the tabloids, all these different men. I mean...
Q: The fact that she was being portrayed as a woman who dated lots of men?
A: Yes.
Q: And that bothered you?
A: Yes.
Q: Any time you want to take a break, please feel free to do so.
MR. KRAMER: Need a minute?
Let's take just a moment. All right?
MR. PETROCELLI: Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:19.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 10:28.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Off -- right before the break you were telling me that you had -- were having real problems with Nicole being portrayed as a kind of loose woman dating many men. You were objecting to Nicole's portrayal as a loose woman.
Do you recall that testimony?
A: Yes.
Q: And as a result, you felt compelled to come out and say something in her behalf. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you say in her behalf?
A: Well, I tried to humanize Nicole. You know, she was a mom. She was -- we did a lot of things together as mom, not just those going out clubbing and going out with different men and stuff like that. She was portrayed negatively by the media, so...
Q: Did you read any books that portrayed her negatively?
A: Books?
Q: Yeah.
A: There was Faye Resnick's book.
Q: You read that book?
A: I didn't read it. I glanced through it.
Q: And in glancing through it, you saw material in there that you thought was objectionable?
A: I thought it was tasteless.
Q: What material was that?
A: Faye Resnick book.
Q: What material in the Resnick book did you regard as tasteless?
A: I think overall the book was.
Q: Overall?
A: Yes.
Q: But you never read it. You just glanced through it. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you don't like Faye Resnick. Do you?
A: I don't like -- I mean, it's not that. I just feel sorry for her.
Q: Why?
A: Just the type of woman she is.
Q: What type of woman is she?
A: Well, I think as Nicole and I used to call her the drama queen, so that speaks for itself.
Q: What does that mean?
A: She's a very -- I don't know. To me I never trusted that woman, the first day I met her.
Q: Did you tell her that?
A: Well, no. Cici Shahian told me; Chris Jenner told me --
Q: Told you what?
A: That, "Watch out for Faye. She's a very high-maintenance woman."
Q: Was she your friend?
A: No, she was not my friend.
Q: Never socialized with Faye Resnick?
A: I socialized with Faye because of Nicole, you know, but she pretty much was Nicole's friend.
Q: Did you try to persuade Nicole not to have a relationship with Faye?
A: Yes.
Q: On numerous occasions?
A: Well, I would say yes.
Q: Starting when?
A: The first time I met her and when --
Q: When was that?
A: I don't remember. When she used to live on Gretna Green.
Q: When Nicole lived on Gretna Green?
A: Yes.
Q: First time you met Faye Resnick?
A: Yes.
Q: You don't know what month that is or year?
A: Must be the summer of '93.
Q: So from the summer of '93 --
A: Summer, summer. I don't know about -- June, July, around that time.
Q: From around the summer of 1993 until Nicole's death, you tried to persuade Nicole not to be friends with Faye Resnick?
A: Well, a couple of times I did that. One time was with O.J. I said to Nicole and
O.J., "I don't trust Faye."
And Nicole said, "Oh, come on, Cora, you know, loosen up."
Q: Loosen up?
A: Yes.
Q: And at some point did you accept -- come to accept Nicole's friendship with Faye?
A: Yes.
Q: And you would go out with Nicole and Faye. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. So you could have chosen to stay home, but you went with them. Right?
A: I didn't go out a lot -- most -- a lot -- you know, I didn't -- I probably went like couple times, two, three times with them, but I didn't go out every time with them.
Q: You've only been out three times together with Nicole and Faye Resnick?
A: Something like that. Two, three times. I mean --
Q: I don't mean just the three of you alone, but any time you were --
A: Oh, no, no, no. I mean -- you mean with other groups, you mean?
Q: Yes.
A: Well, then more than three times.
Q: How many?
A: I don't know.
Q: Hundreds?
A: No.
Q: 20?
A: No.
Q: Less than 20?
A: Yes.
Q: 10?
A: Probably. Yes.
Q: So 10 times you were in the same group as Faye, and only three times Nicole, Faye and you were together alone. Is that about right?
A: Just the three of us?
Q: Yes.
MR. KRAMER: You're asking about being out, clubbing or something, out?
MR. PETROCELLI: Anywhere.
THE WITNESS: No -- I would say yeah, about three times.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. Did you ever spend any time alone with Faye Resnick?
A: One time I drove her to the car rental. That's about it. That's the only time I was with her alone.
Q: When was that?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Before Nicole's death?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever talk to her on the phone?
A: When?
Q: At any time.
A: Yes, of course.
Q: You and Faye Resnick?
A: Yes. She -- yeah.
Q: She would call you?
A: Yes.
Q: And you would converse with her on the phone?
A: Yes.
Q: Numerous times. Right?
A: I would say yes.
Q: Now, isn't it true that you had conversations with Faye Resnick about writing a book together after Nicole's death?
A: Not writing a book together, no.
Q: And no discussions with her about collaborating on a book --
A: No.
Q: -- or writing books together?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you have discussions with Faye that you would be writing a book?
A: No.
Q: Have any conversadons at all with Faye Resnick after Nicole's death about writing of books?
A: She told me that she's planning on writing a book, so that was the conversation.
Q: What did you say?
A: What did I say?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Do you know if anything in her book is false?
A: Is false?
Q: Yes.
MR. BAKER: I think she said she skimmed it. You're asking her --
MR. PETROCELLI: Browsed it. Or "glanced" is what she said.
THE WlTNESS: I don't know. The whole thing is she --
MR. KRAMER: The question was: Is there anything that you read in the book that you perceive to be false?
THE WITNESS: To be false?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Untrue.
A: The tone. The tone of that is so untrue, you know.
Q: What tone are you referring to?
A: She has a lot of anger in that book.
Q: Anger about whom.
A: About O.J. and --
Q: What's false about that anger?
A: About how, you know, all this anger that -- the violent anger of O.J. --
Q: You think that's false?
A: Well, to me I never saw it, so...
Q: You know O.J. Simpson has a violent temper. Right?
A: I know that.
Q: You know that to be true. Correct?
A: I have not seen him, though.
Q: You know that to be true, correct, that he has a violent temper?
MR. KRAMER: That calls for a yes or no, if you know.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I have not seen him get angry.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you ever told anyone that O.J. Simpson had a violent temper? Yes or no.
A: Have I said?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: Were you lying when you said that?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You may answer.
A: Was I lying? I probably was unsure.
Q: You said -- Who did you tell that O.J. Simpson had a violent temper?
A: Nicole told me one time. She said it like, "Oh, God, it's like -- you know, like typical husband. When they get -- when they scream, they scream, and we get mad at them," so...
Q: Who did you tell that O.J. Simpson had a violent temper?
A: Who?
Q: Yeah.
A: I don't remember.
Q: Were you telling the truth when you said that?
A: I probably was -- at that time I was like -- there was a lot of confusion, so, see, it's all hearsay, what Nicole told me.
Q: No, I am not asking you that. I am asking whether you told the truth when you told someone that O.J. Simpson had a violent temper.
Were you telling the truth?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Was I telling the truth?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes.
A: If I tell -- if I'm telling the truth if I saw him? I never saw him with a violent temper, though.
Q: You didn't answer my question.
MR. KRAMER: Do you understand the question?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You told someone that O.J. Simpson had a violent temper. When you did so, were you telling the truth?
MR. KRAMER: Either you were or you weren't or you don't know.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
MR. PETROCELLI: There is no need to coach the witness.
MR. KRAMER: I have no interest in coaching the witness.
MR. PETROCELLI: The questions are crystal clear.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You don't remember if you were telling the truth?
A: Well, you know, there was a lot of confusion. You know, my girlfriend died. You know, there was just all these things going on. The media was saying, "What do you think? What do you think?" I mean --
Q: You were confused about whether O.J. Simpson had a violent temper?
A: Because I never saw that temper, I never saw that violent behavior. Nicole had mentioned to me, she says, "Oh, Nicole" -- she says that O.J. can get mad.
I said, "Oh, the same as Ron," so...
Q: Let me tell you this: We are not talking about Ron Fischman now.
MR. BAKER: You are cutting her off.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: We'll get to Ron Fischman later on. We are talking about O.J. Simpson. Okay?
When Nicole told you that O.J. Simpson had a violent temper, do you think she was telling you the truth?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: At the time I believed her.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you believe her?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did you know of any reason she had to lie to you at that time?
A: There was no reason, no.
Q: You were a dear friend of hers. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And she of yours. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: In fact, you say that you were her closest friend. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: For a number of years up to the time of her death. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, have you learned since Nicole's told you that O.J. Simpson had a violent temper that she was not telling you the truth at that time? Have you learned that statement by her to be false?
A: Have I -- no.
Q: Have you learned of anything to indicate to you that Nicole was lying to you when she told you that O.J. Simpson had a violent temper?
MR. BAKER: I am going to say it mischaracterizes her testimony. I don't recall her saying that Nicole told her that she -- that he had a violent temper.
MR. PETROCELLI: You can try and put as many words in this witness' mouth as you want. You can cross-examine her to your heart's delight when I am concluded with my examination.
Q: You may answer.
MR. KRAMER: Do you have the question in mind?
THE WlTNESS: No.
MR. KRAMER: Could we have the question back, please?
MR. PETROCELLI: Please read the question.
THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question, please?
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q. Have you learned of anything to indicate to you that Nicole was lying to you when she told you that O.J. Simpson had a violent temper?")
THE WITNESS: Nicole was not lying.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. And you have not learned anything since Nicole told you that to indicate that she was lying to you at that time. Is that right?
A: Have I learned?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't know how tn answer that.
Q: Have you, since the time Nicole told you that, learned that that statement is not true?
A: Never thought of it.
Q: Have you -- has anyone told you it was false? Have you read anything, have you learned anything, to indicate to you that the statement that Nicole made to you was false? That's all I'm asking you.
A: No.
Q: Thank you. You observed O.J. Simpson and Nicole interacting quite a bit during the course of your relationship with them. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you spent many, many hours with Nicole alone. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And she talked to you often about her feelings towards Mr. Simpson and her relationship with him. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you've also had some conversations with O.J. Simpson about his relationship with Nicole and his feelings about her. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you've been together with them alone, and you've been together with them in groups of people. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So you've had as much opportunity as perhaps anyone in the last four years of Nicole's life to observe them interacting. Is that right?
MR. KRAMER: If you know.
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: If -- I'm sorry.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You've had as much opportunity as anyone to observe them in the last three or four years of Nicole's life. Right?
A: As much opportunity?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes.
Q: Now, in your opinion was Mr. Simpson a jealous man when it came to Nicole?
A: I thought he was.
Q: Was he a controlling man when it came to Nicole?
A: Controlling in what way?
Q: Controlling towards Nicole, tried to control her.
A: Nicole said yes, yeah.
Q: And you observed that to be true also. Right?
A: Controlling, I would say yes, at the time.
Q: And Mr. Simpson was, based on your observations, also obsessive, acted obsessively towards Nicole, didn't he?
MR. KRAMER: Do you understand what that means?
THE WITNESS: Obsessive?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah, you know what that means.
By the way, just so your lawyer doesn't have to interrupt and ask you, if there isn't -- if you don't understand my question, just ask me, and I will be happy to try to explain them to you.
A: What do you mean by "obsessively"?
Q: Obsessive, act obsessively towards Nicole.
MR. BAKER: That's not the greatest definition I've ever heard.
MR. PETROCELLI: I don't want to define it.
Q: You --
A: They were both obsessed with each other.
Q: Was O.J. Simpson obsessed with Nicole? Yes or no.
MR. BAKER: If you can answer it with a yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Obsession, what do you mean by "obsession"?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Miss Fischman, you just told me they were both obsessed with each other. Correct?
A: Right.
Q: Now I am just asking you: Was O.J. Simpson obsessed with Nicole?
Do you have trouble answering that question?
A: Well, because what Nicole told me -- Nicole told me that O.J. was obsessed with her.
Q: Did you agree with that?
A: See, but at the time I never realy saw him that often, so I never really saw the obsession.
Q: Later on did you see the obsession?
MR. BAKER: You're cutting her off.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Never saw any evidence of obsession?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative and asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And never told anybody that O.J. Simpson was obsessive towards Nicole. Is that right?
A: Well, at the time when Nicole died, I said that there was a problem at the time that they were obsessed with each other.
Q: When you say, "they were obsessed with each other," by that you mean that O.J. Simpson was obsessed with Nicole and Nicole was obsessed with O.J. Simpson. Is that right?
A: It's --
Q: Is that right?
A: I would say right.
Q: Do you think Mr. Simpson killed Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Do you think he's innocent?
A: At first I thought he did but then when the evidence came, it just didn't work out. The two didn't match.
Q: What evidence made you conclude Mr. Simpson did not kill Nicole?
A: The evidence were just too enormous. There was just --
MR. KELLY: I'm sorry. I can't hear you, Miss Fischman.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: The evidence of Mr. Simpson's innocence is just too enormous. Is that what you're saying?
A: Right, yeah.
Q: Okay. So you are not aware of any evidence incriminating Mr. Simpson. Is that what you're saying?
A: What does that mean?
MR. KRAMER: You don't know what it means? Would you rephrase the question?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
Q: Are you aware of any evidence that points towards Mr. Simpson's guilt as the person who killed Nicole?
MR. BAKER: Object to the term "evidence."
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, she understood it very clearly when she said there was enormous evidence of his innocence.
Q: Are you aware of any evidence of his guilt? That's all I'm asking you.
A: That he loved Nicole.
Q: Now, you said there was a time when you thought that he did it.
A: Yes.
Q: When was that?
A: When all this thing happened, when Nicole just died and everybody was saying O.J. did it, and the media came to me and says, "When was their last fight?" It's like the media said O.J. did it. So we all based it from he did it, so --
Q: So you just believed the media. Is that what you're saying?
A: It was a lot of confusion.
MR. BAKER: You have now cut her off three times.
THE WITNESS: You know what it is? It was my girlfriend died. I was so confused; I was shocked; I didn't know what was going on; the media was after me, and friends were saying, "He did it."
So we said, "Okay, if he did it, what did he do? How did he do it?" So that's how all of us were thinking about that. And then when all the evidences came out, we started saying, "Wait a minute. It didn't match. What's going on?"
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What didn't match? What didn't match?
A: What didn't match?
Q: Yes.
A: The gloves, why was one there and one -- and there was no blood around. If he's the one who did it, why was there no blood around the house. I mean, his carpet is white. Why was there no bloodstain on the carpet around. And the socks, why was there no blood around the socks. If he took a shower, why were there no -- you know.
Q: Why were there no what?
A: No blood in the shower, nothing.
Q: Who were the friends that were saying that O.J. did it?
A: I don't have any friends, so...Who were the friends of who?
Q: You said earlier the friends were saying O.J. did it. Who were those friends?
A: Nicole's friends, I guess.
Q: Who were they?
A: Cici Shahian, Kris Jenner, Faye Resnick.
Q: Who else?
A: Those are the people I know that she hang out with.
Q: And those are the people who told you that O.J. did it. Is that right?
A: Yeah. And they told me that he did it or else they will not talk to me ever again.
Q: What does that mean?
A: There was a thing, says, "If" -- "either you say O.J. did it, we'll group ourselves, and this is what we gonna do."
Q: So you're saying that you had a meeting with Cici, Faye and Kris in which they all approached you and said that you were to agree that O.J. did it or else they would never talk to you again. Is that right?
A: It's more like that and --
Q: Is that what you're saying?
A: Pretty much, yes.
Q: Okay. Where did this meeting occur?
A: Not meeting. It was all conversation, and I had a -- I had dinner with --
Q: Dinner with whom?
A: With Cici Shahian and Robin Greer, and that's it, and they told me that I have to support them or else they're going to destroy me.
Q: You said Cici and Robin were there?
A: Yeah.
Q: And did Kris Jenner tell you the same thing?
A: No. Kris Jenner just called me a couple times.
Q: So your statement about Kris Jenner being part of this is false then. Right?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that what you're now saying?
A: Not part of it's false. She was also there. She was not at the meeting, but she was... I don't know how to answer this.
Q: She was what?
A: I met with her also a couple times, and we talked about it, and they wanted me to talk to the media on Nicole's behalf, and, you know...
Q: Did Kris Jenner tell you that if you didn't say O.J. did it, she would never talk to you again?
A: No, she didn't say that. But the Browns did that, told me. Judy told me.
Q: Judy told you to say that O.J. did it; otherwise she would never talk with you again?
A: No. If I ever talked to O.J., that they would not talk to me ever again.
Q: Okay. That's a different question. Who are the people that told you to say that O.J. Simpson killed Nicole -- for you to say that, and if you didn't say that, they would never talk to you again?
A: Nobody said that to me.
Q: Well, you just told me that there was conversations in which Kris Jenner, Robin Greer and Cici Shahian told you to say that. Are you now saying that that isn't true?
MR. KRAMER: Gather your thoughts --
MR. BAKER: Argumentative, and let her finish her answer. You cut her off every time --
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not cutting her off, Mr. Baker.
MR. BAKER: -- you get an answer that you don't like.
MR. KRAMER: Gather your thoughts, think about your answer and answer the question to the best of your ability. Do you have the question in mind? Do you need a moment?
THE WITNESS: Would you repeat that question, please?
(Pending question read as follows:
Q: Well, you just told me that there was conversations in which Kris Jenner, Robin Greer and Cici Shahian told you to say that. Are you now saying that that isn't true?")
THE WITNESS: No. That's true.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So they all told you to say that O.J. killed Nicole, and if you didn't say that, they would not talk to you again. Is --
A: Pretty much, yes.
Q: And the people who said that were Robin Greer, Cici Shahian and Kris Jenner. Is that right?
A: Yes. Faye Resnick.
Q: And Faye Resnick.
A: Judy Brown.
Q: Judy Brown. Anyone else?
A: Those are the people.
Q: And did you agree to go along with that at that time?
A: No. I just didn't want to -- I felt like I should leave it to the justice system. I said, "I wasn't there. I was a bystander. I mean, I'm not a witness. Nicole didn't call me and said, you know, `O.J. just killed me.'" I mean, we were all shocked. We were -- we didn't know.
Q: Did you ever tell anybody that you thought O.J. killed Nicole?
A: Yeah, of course. It entered my mind.
Q: What do you mean, "of course"?
A: It entered my mind.
Q: Why did you say "of course"?
A: Because at the time there was just a lot of things going on. I mean, they had -- they had -- they were trying to reconcile, and Nicole was doing a lot of things, too, on the -- you know, I mean, she I wanted to go back, she didn't want to go back, and then, you know -- and then at some point -- there was a lot of confusion between the two.
O.J. said, "I feel like a battered husband."
And then Nicole says, "I don't know if I should move back. I should" -- you know, so, yeah. So when Nicole died, the first thing is, oh, my God, what happened here?
Q: The first thing that crossed your mind is that O.J. did it. Right?
A: Exactly.
Q: Did you ask O.J. if he did it?
A: No. He didn't --
Q: You didn't ask him?
A: No.
Q: When did you first see him after Nicole's death?
A: When he got out of prison.
Q: When did you --
A: The week after the verdict.
Q: Well, you saw him at the wake, didn't you?
A: Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah, you're right.
Q: And you saw him at the funeral. Right?
A: Yeah, right. I'm sorry. Yeah, that's true.
Q: You talked to him on the telephone also, didn't you?
A: When he was in jail, yeah, he called a couple times.
Q: Now, when you saw him at the wake and the funeral, didn't you go up to him and say, "Why did you do this?"
A: No, that's true -- that's not true. I'm sorry. I was hysterical --
MR. KRAMER: There is no question pending.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You were hysterical? You may complete your thought. Go ahead.
A: I was hysterical; I couldn't believe that Nicole was there, and I went to him and I started pounding his chest, and I said, "Who did this to my friend? What happened?"
And I was pounding his chest, and I was like really angry. I said, "What happened? What happened here? You know, all she wanted to do was take care of Sydney and Justin."
And then he said, "I just" -- "I love her. I love her so much, Cora," and that was it, and then we were like -- I was...
Q: You deny asking him at that time if he killed Nicole or if he did this or if he was responsible for her death? You deny that?
A: Denied what?
Q: Deny asking him that at that time.
A: If he -- I didn't even ask him. I was like --
MR. KRAMER: So the answer is yes, you deny asking him.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You deny asking him. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You have a very clear memory of what you said to him even though you were hysterical. Is that right?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative. She's answered this question.
THE WITNESS: I said those, yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You said what?
A: I said -- those are the words I said, you know, "What happened? What happened here?"
Q: Did he say to you, "I loved her too much"? Did he say that to you?
A: "I loved her so much."
Q: "So much." Not "too much." You distinctly recall that. Is that right?
A: That I don't remember, what -- you know, I was crying hysterically.
Q: So you don't remember.
A: No.
Q: So he could have said to you, "I loved her too much" --
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: -- rather than "so much." Is that right?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You don't recall?
A: That -- see, you know, I was crying, I was hysterical --
MR. KRAMER: Cora, you remember the distinction, or you don't? That's the question.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember the distinction.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So it could have been either one. Right?
A: It could have been either one.
Q: Okay. At anytime did you ever ask Mr. Simpson whether he killed Nicole, your dear friend?
A: If I asked him? No.
Q: Now, you never asked him. Right?
A: I never asked him.
Q: Up until this day. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, you said O.J. Simpson entered your mind as the person who might have killed Nicole when you first heard of her death.
Did any other person enter your mind?
MR. KRAMER: At the time?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
THE WITNESS: At that time, yes --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Who?
A: -- because, see, Faye Resnick -- see, Faye Resnick was running out of money; she didn't have a home, and they were doing a lot of -- they were doing cocaine and they were doing -- they were soliciting men, and so they were out almost every night, and so I said, "Oh, my God, somebody could have done" -- you know.
Q: I take it, then, that you were with Nicole and Faye when they were doing cocaine. Is that right?
A: No.
Q: And I take it you were with Nicole and Faye when they were soliciting men. Is that right?
A: I was not with them.
Q: I see. So you have no firsthand knowledge of any of that. Is that right? Yes or no.
A: No.
Q: You have no firsthand knowledge that Nicole Brown Simpson was doing cocaine at the end --
A: Faye told me.
Q: -- of her life. You have no firsthand knowledge. You didn't see it. Is that right?
A: I didn't see it.
Q: And you didn't see her soliciting men. Is that right?
MR. BAKER: Stop arguing with the witness and pointing at her.
THE WITNESS: I didn't see them, but --
MR. KRAMER: You didn't see them.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You didn't see them.
A: I didn't see them.
Q: You didn't --
A: I didn't know.
Q: Any man ever come up to you and say that "Nicole Brown Simpson solicited me"?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: [Name Deleted]
Q: When did [Name Deleted] tell you that?
A: When I saw him at Starbucks coffee with his friend.
Q: After Nicole's death?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did [Name Deleted] tell you?
A: Well, we were consoling, and he said to me nice things about Nicole.
Q: Excuse me. I can't concentrate because Mr. Simpson is talking to Mr. Kelly.
A: And they -- and he told me that "I wanted to tell you something about Nicole."
I said, "Well" -- then he told me that they went out to dinner, and Nicole asked them if they do threesome.
Q: Nicole and [Name Deleted] went out to dinner?
A: And Ron Goldman. Ron Goldman, [Name Deleted] and Nicole. That was their first -- they went out to dinner.
Q: This is being related to you by [Name Deleted]. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: And this is sometime after Nicole's death. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: When was this?
A: Must be a week, during that week.
Q: Okay. And where did you and [Name Deleted] --
A: Saw --
Q: -- go? Starbucks, did you say?
A: We didn't go. I saw him at Starbucks coffee.
Q: Just ran into him?
A: Yes, I ran into him.
Q: Middle of the day?
A: Yes.
Q: And he just told this to you?
A: Well, he gave me a hug because he knew.
Q: And said, "Oh, by the way, did you know that Nicole was soliciting men?" Is that what you told --
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: He didn't say it quite that way.
He just gave me a hug and he said, "You know, I'm sorry for what happened."
And I said, you know -- and he said nice things about Nicole, and I said -- so he asked me about Faye Resnick. I said, "Yeah, you know, and" --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What did he ask you about Faye Resnick?
A: He said, "Who is Faye Resnick?" I said, "Well, you know, it's Nicole and" --
Q: What did you say to him?
A: I said, "This is Nicole's friend."
Q: Okay. Continue.
A: And --
MR. BAKER: Continue with her answer?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
MR. BAKER: So you interrupted her.
THE WITNESS: And he told me that they went out to dinner, and Nicole got a little drunk and started asking about that question, and he says, "It's not that I want to shock you."
I said, "Well, I know that already. She told me," and that was it. So, you know...
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So that's the extent of the conversation with you and [Name Deleted]?
A: That was pretty much, you know. And then we still talk about, you know -- that's pretty much the basic.
Q: What did [Name Deleted] say in response to Nicole's solicitation?
A: He was embarrassed.
Q: What did he tell you that he said?
A: She [sic] said, "Have you guys done" -- "have you guys done it with another woman?"
And [Name Deleted] said they were embarrassed when Nicole asked that question, and he says, "With whom?" [Name Deleted] said, "With whom?" He says, "With Cora?"
And then Nicole said, "No, not with Cora. With Faye Resnick," and that's why [Name Deleted] asked me who Faye Resnick is.
And then -- so when I described to him Faye Resnick, he says, "No, no, no," he says, "Cora doesn't do those things," and --
THE REP0RTER: I'm sorry. I can't hear the "he says" or "she says." You're dropping your voice.
(Record read.)
THE WITNESS: No. When [Name Deleted] said, "With Cora?" because -- you know, because Nicole and I go to Starbucks coffee a lot after our run, and Nicole said, "No, Cora doesn't do those things. With Faye Resnick." And so that was it, you know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So did Keller tell you whether they went through with this?
A: No.
Q: Did --
A: Then Nicole apologized to them. She said, "Oh, I'm sorry," you know, "I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassing myself. I'm sorry," and that was it.
Q: Did Keller tell you whether Nicole's comments were directed to him or to Ron Goldman?
A: That I don't know. He didn't specify that. It was pretty much, you know, the three of them having conversation.
Q: And you said you had already heard that from Nicole before she died. Right?
A: Yes, she told me.
Q: How many times?
MR. KRAMER: You are asking how many times did this topic come up?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember. Once, twice.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Just relate the conversations to me.
A: Nicole told me that she did -- she did it with Faye and another guy, and Faye told me after Nicole died, because I wanted answers, I wanted to know if that really happened, and Faye confirmed it.
Q: Confirmed it?
A: Well, she told me. She told me the same thing what Nicole told me.
Q: Okay. When did Nicole tell you this? Give me a date.
A: I would say around April, late April.
Q: '94?
A: '94.
Q: Where were you and Nicole when you had this conversation?
A: Starbucks.
Q: Just the two of you?
A: Yes.
Q: And was this after her trip to Cabo?
A: Yes.
Q: Was Mr. Simpson in Puerto Rico at the time?
A: Yes. No. They all went to Cabo, and then -- they all went to Cabo, and then he -- I think he went home -- I don't know. I think he went -- probably he went to Puerto Rico at the time.
Q: Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: And filmed FROGMAN. Right?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And Nicole came back to Los Angeles. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And she had a conversation with you at Starbucks in which she related to you that she and Faye Resnick had had sex with another man. Is that right?
A: That was later, that time. It wasn't right away when they got back from Cabo.
Q: Couple weeks later?
A: Yeah.
Q: And did she indicate that this incident occurred in Cabo or in Los Angeles?
A: That I don't know, but she told me that they met a guy in Cabo.
Q: And was this the guy that was involved in the incident?
A: Yes.
Q: And did this incident -- What's that guy's name?
A: Guy's name is Brett.
Q: What's Brett's last name?
A: That I don't know.
Q: Have you ever seen Brett?
A: No, never met him.
Q: Have you ever talked to Brett?
A: Never.
Q: And Nicole identified Brett by name?
A: Uh-huh, yes.
Q: Did Faye also?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that the extent of the conversation that you had with Nicole about Brett?
A: Yes.
Q: And you said Nicole mentioned this topic again to you on another occasion?
A: Yes.
Q: And describe that to me.
A: This must be a week after -- I don't remember, but she kinda mentioned it in passing that, "Don't get mad at me, but I" -- "Faye and I did it."
Q: Did what?
A: That's exactly what she told me. Did what. They did it. And then she started to giggle.
Q: You mean that Faye -- she told you that Faye Resnick and she had sex with another man?
A: Well, she told me that "Faye and I did it," so that's as far as I --
Q: What did you understand that to mean?
A: That the two of them had an affair together.
Q: Alone? Or with another man?
A: Alone and with another man. Well, she said they did it, and says, "Don't get mad at me."
I said, "I'm not going to get mad at you."
Q: Wait a second. You said, "Alone and with another man."
A: Well, later on she told me that they did it with a man. So they did it before, and then they did it with another man.
Q: And she told you this in the second conversation that you had with her. You already told me about the first time.
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Now, when she said, "Don't get mad," had you previously expressed your disapproval to her when she related the incident the first time?
A: Well, because she knew me --
MR. KRAMER: It's a yes or a no.
THE WITNESS: What -- I'm sorry.
MR. KRAMER: Did you express your disapproval to her when she told you the first time, was the question?
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What did you say when she told you about the incident?
A: What did --
Q: First time.
A: What did who?
Q: What did you say to Nicole?
A: I said "Nicole," and then that's it.
Q: You said "Nicole" and didn't say anything more?
A: I just say, "Be careful."
Q: "Be careful"? About what?
MR. KRAMER: Are you asking her what did she say or what did she think?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah, what did you say?
A: That's what I said: "Nicole be careful."
Q: What did you have in mind?
A: I had in mind was she was doing something that wasn't right.
Q: You mean morally right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, when she told you the second time, what did you say to her then?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Now, when you had a conversation with Resnick after Nicole's death, did you ask Resnick about these two incidents that Nicole related to you?
A: Yes.
Q: And she confirmed them both?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you say to Resnick at that time?
A: At that time she was -- actually she was shocked when I told her, and she said, "Yeah, I thought" -- "Nicole told me," I said, "that you two had an affair, and she told me not to tell you or else you're gonna kill her," because Nicole used to say that, "Oh, don't tell Faye. Faye's gonna kill me if you tell her that I told you about this."
Q: Okay. By the way, do you think Faye Resnick killed Nicole?
A: No.
Q: You don't think that that statement had anything to do with Nicole's death?
A: Well, Nicole used that word "kill" a lot, you know, as a figure of speech, so I really didn't have -- to me it was like I was saying I killed somebody, you know, "My dad's gonna kill me if I do something wrong," you know, or --
Q: I see. So when she said to you that O.J. was going to kill her, you took that as just a figure of speech and not seriously. Is that what you're trying to say?
A: Hearing from her most -- yeah, right. Like, "Judy's gonna kill me if she finds out I'm smoking. Don't tell my mom," you know.
Q: And she used that figure of speech in relation to O.J. Simpson, too, from time to time. Is that right?
A: I never paid attention. To me it was like I saw her every day, so --
Q: My question to you is: She said to you from time to time, "O.J.'s going to kill me." Is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: And when she said that to you, you attached no significance to it?
A: I never did, yeah.
Q: You thought she didn't really mean what she was saying. Right?
A: No.
Q: Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: And the reason you thought that is because she used this figure of speech all the time. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And she said that Judy was going to kill her. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And Faye was going to kill her. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And how many other people were going to kill her? What other people did she include in that when she used that figure of speech?
A: Well, pretty much -- you know it's sort of like you don't pay attention to it, you know.
Q: Can you remember any other names, Miss Fischman?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You knew that Faye Resnick was in a treatment center at the night of Nicole's death. Right?
MR. BAKER: Does she know that now?
THE WITNESS: I didn't know at that time.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You know that now. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Who told you about Nicole's use of cocaine?
A: Faye told me.
Q: Before or after Nicole's death?
A: After Nicole's death.
Q: So before Nicole's death you had no knowledge whatsoever of her using cocaine in the last months of her life. Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And after Nicole's death Faye told you exactly what in that regard?
A: That they were doing cocaine.
Q: On what days?
A: What days?
Q: Yeah.
A: She didn't specify.
Q: So you had no idea from your conversation with Faye Resnick whether it was once or a hundred times. Right? Is that a fair statement?
A: She said that they were free-basing, so I don't know what that means.
Q: But you don't know how often. Correct?
A: No.
Q: And you don't know what quantities either. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: That's correct. Right?
A: Yes, correct, I don't know what quantities.
Q: And you don't know where the cocaine was obtained from. Correct?
A: Yes, correct.
Q: Okay. So other than Faye Resnick saying to you after Nicole's death that she and Nicole had been free-basing, you don't have any information whatsoever on Nicole's drug use prior to her death. Is that right?
A: She said that when -- they were doing it when Nicole used to live on Gretna Green.
Q: I am talking about the last couple of months.
A: Oh.
Q: You are also covering up your mouth with your hand, and it's hard to hear you.
A: Oh, sorry.
MR. KRAMER: Is there a question pending?
MR. PETROCELLI: The answer is no.
(Question read as follows:
"Q. Okay. So other than Faye Resnick saying to you after Nicole's death that she and Nicole had been free-basing, you don't have any information whatsoever on Nicole's drug use prior to her death. Is that right?")
THE WlTNESS: Prior to her death, yes, right.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And in fact you don't even know when Faye Resnick and Nicole were allegedly free-basing. Correct?
A: I don't know when?
Q: Correct. You don't know when. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Faye didn't tell you when they did that. Right?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. Have you learned from any other person besides Faye Resnick of any drug use by Nicole in the two months or three months before her death?
A: Have I learned from?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: No. No.
Q: And have you learned from any source other than Nicole and Faye any further information about her soliciting other men to have sex in the last few months of her life?
MR. BAKER: Other than what she's testified to?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Have I what?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you learned any other information on the topic of Nicole soliciting sex with men in the last few months of her life, other than what you've already told us?
A: No. That's --
Q: So have you now told us everything that you have heard or came to know on the topic of Nicole's drug use and Nicole's solicitation of men in the months leading up to her death?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
MR. KELLY: Why don't we take a break.
MR. PETROCELLI: One second.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now let me get back to my -- to something you said earlier. We started out this line when I asked you whether anybody else entered your mind --
A: Uh-huh.
Q: -- in terms of who may have killed Nicole, and then you started talking about Faye Resnick and these topics. Okay?
Was there a person who came to mind besides O.J. Simpson who you thought might have killed Nicole?
A: Well, I thought it could be, because they were going out a lot, could be men they met when they went out, and because when Faye told me they were doing drugs. Again, I don't know whether this is public record}, and she didn't have any money, so I thought, okay, somebody could have been -- you know, could be drugs.
Q: Did any names come to mind?
A: No, no names.
Q: Okay. So you knew of no other person. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Other than --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Other than O.J. Simpson, who came into your mind as a person who might have killed Nicole. Is that right?
A: No. No.
Q: Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. And I take it that you immediately communicated this information about Nicole's drug use and solicitation to the police so that they could track down possible people responsible for her death. Right?
A: I -- yes. I told that to Marcia Clark.
Q: When did you tell that to Marcia Clark?
A: When she asked me.
Q: Well, did you immediately pick up the phone and --
A: Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
Q: -- go to the police to tell them this information?
A: No.
Q: Well, you knew that O.J. Simpson was being charged with these crimes. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: You saw it on television. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: In fact you were interviewed on 6-14, June 14th, 1994, by Officers LeFall and Luper. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you didn't tell them about -- any information about this drug or this solicitation information. Correct?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You didn't tell them that. Is that right?
MR. BAKER: She just answered your question.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I probably did. I probably did not. I mean --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You probably did. You probably did not. What does that mean?
A: I said I don't remember.
Q: Did you tell them? Yes or no.
MR. KRAMER: She has answered the question.
THE WITNESS: I said I don't remember.
MR. KRAMER: If you want to try to refresh her recollection, that's fine. She doesn't remember.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. Did you tell Officer -- excuse me -- Detective Payne on June 24 about the drug use and the solicitation?
A: You know, I don't even know what questions they asked me. I probably did.
Q: So if they didn't ask you, you wouldn't have told them. Fair statement?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that a fair statement? If they didn't ask you, you wouldn't have told them.
A: They didn't ask me, so why would I give information.
Q: So you didn't tell them. Is that right?
MR. BAKER: If she recalls.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You said to me, "They didn't ask me" --
A: I don't remember. I mean --
Q: -- "so why would I give them the information."
So if they didn't ask you, you didn't give them the information. That's all I'm trying to find out. Is that --
A: You know, when my girlfriend died, I didn't even know what was going on. There was a lot of confusion here.
Q: I am not asking about your confusion. I am asking whether you told the police this important information that you've related to us in this deposition.
MR. BAKER: And you've asked her that six times.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You may answer.
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. If they didn't ask you about this specifically, is it your testimony --
A: I probably did not.
Q: Okay. That's all I'm trying to find out. You probably did not tell them. Correct?
A: Correct.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. We can take a break now.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 11:19.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 11:37.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you spoken to any person other than Faye Resnick and other than [Name Deleted] concerning the alleged solicitation of men by Nicole?
MR. BAKER: And Nicole?
MR. PETROCELLI: And Nicole.
THE WITNESS: Have I?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes.
A: It's just those three people, yes.
Q: So you've spoken to no one else about that. Is that correct?
A: Yes, correct.
Q: At any time. Right?
A: Correct, yeah.
Q: And the same is true about the alleged drug use by Nicole in the last weeks and months of her --
A: I mean, have I spoken to other people about that, you mean, or have I heard from other people?
Q: Heard from other people.
A: Oh, yes, only from the three of them.
Q: Okay. And the same is true of the alleged drug use by Nicole in the last months of her life, that the only persons that you heard that from were from -- actually the only person you heard that from at all was Faye Resnick. Is that right?
A: Yeah, Faye Resnick, right.
Q: Okay. And since the early days after Nicole's death, you have heard -- you have gained no further information on those topics. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. Now, who have you told about those incidents other than me at this deposition?
A: Who have I told?
Q: Have you told anyone else?
MR. KRAMER: And you are not asking any questions with her attorneys.
MR. PETROCELLI: No. By "attorneys," I assume you mean Mr. Kramer or members of his law firm.
MR. KRAMER: That's what I had in mind.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
THE WITNESS: I've told a lot of people.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Who have you told?
A: A lot.
Q: Name them.
A: I told --
Q: So that the question is clear, I am talking about the alleged drug use and the alleged solicitation of men.
A: I told that to Cici, to...I told that to the Browns, to Judy --
Q: Judy Brown?
A: Yes. To -- I don't remember. It's pretty much the people I spoke to. I was trying to, you know --
Q: Ron Fischman?
A: Told that to Ron.
Q: Anyone else?
A: I think I mentioned that to Kato, too.
Q: After Nicole's death?
A: Yes.
Q: Anyone else?
A: Told that to Brooke Skulski, you know, when I was planning on writing a book. I told that to Mr. Kramer, to --
MR. KRAMER: The conversations you had with me are privileged.
THE WITNESS: Okay. To Jean Strauss, the book -- the lady I'm collaborating with. Told this to Michael Viner.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Who is he?
A: He's the one who wrote Faye's book.
Q: He's an author?
A: Not an author, but a publisher of Faye's book.
That's it. I mean, I can't even remember names at this point.
Q: Were your conversations with Jean Strauss tape-recorded?
A: No.
Q: None of them?
A: None at all.
Q: When did you tell Michael Viner?
A: This was after Faye Resnick wrote the book.
MR. KELLY: I am sorry. I can't hear you, Miss Fischman.
THE WITNESS: This is when Faye Resnick -- when her book came out.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And why were you telling this to the publisher of her book?
A: Because I wanted to make a statement about the book. I want to -- I was very hurt by what she wrote about Nicole, and I thought I could make a statement in behalf of Nicole, who Nicole was to me, and I thought he could help me.
Q: Make that statement?
A: Yes.
Q: How could he help you?
A: Through an article in a newspaper or whatever.
Q: You needed Michael Viner to get an article in a newspaper?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that what you're saying?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I don't need Michael Viner, but Cici and Robin suggested that to me.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So you told Michael Viner what -- this information about the solicitation and the drug use? Is that what you're saying?
A: I -- yes. Yes.
Q: And what did you ask him to do with that information?
A: No. What happened was he taped it, and I told him how I felt about the whole thing.
Q: He taped it?
A: It was on tape when I made statement to Michael Viner.
Q: I asked you about tape recordings before. You didn't mention this. Why is that?
A: I didn't remember.
Q: But after your break with your lawyer for about a half an hour, you suddenly remembered. Is that true?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: You know --
MR. BAKER: Is this deposition --
THE WITNESS: This is very -- it's been like -- this has been for three years. I'm rehashing for a whole lot of years here and --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Are you now saying to me that after the deposition -- after the lengthy break and you met with your lawyer, you remembered the tape recording by Michael Viner?
A: Well, because you had mentioned to me about the people who I told you about solicitation, and I'm trying to give you an honest answer.
Q: Okay. Did you discuss this during the break?
MR. KRAMER: Stop. Wait a minute. Stop. Stop. Stop. I don't mean to yell at you. I'm sorry.
I meant to yell at you.
MR.PETROCELLI: You don't have to yell. There is no point in yelling.
MR. KRAMER: Dan, that's outrageous.
MR.PETROCELLI: It's not outrageous. It's totally unprivileged. You tell the witness what to say; I'm completely at liberty to ask about that, and I intend to ask about that.
MR. KRAMER: I instruct you to not answer any questions about the conversations you and I had. They are protected by the attorney-client communication privilege.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You talked to Mr. Baker at all today, Phil Baker?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever meet him before today?
A: First time I meet him here.
Q: Did you ever meet any of Mr. Simpson's lawyers in this case before today?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever talk to any of them?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever talk to O.J. Simpson?
A: Have I ever talked to him?
Q: Before today --
A: Not before today.
Q: -- concerning your deposition.
Q: Huh?
A: Not -- no.
Q: Today you talked to him?
A: No, I didn't. I said hello to him today.
Q: Did you talk to him about your deposition?
A: Yes.
Q: At any time?
A: At any time?
Q: Yes, about the fact that you're coming here to testify.
A: I told him Sunday that I'm gonna be -- my subpoena is on Tuesday.
Q: What did he say?
A: He just smiled. He says, "Good luck."
Q: Okay. Was that the extent of the conversation: You said, "I'm coming Sunday," and he said, smiling, "Good luck," end of conversation?
A: End of conversation.
Q: Okay. Where did that occur?
A: At his place.
Q: You were there?
A: Yes.
Q: What were you doing there?
A: My kids played with her -- with his kids this weekend.
Q: I see. That's a common thing since he's been out of jail: Your kids go over there and play?
A: Every other weekend.
Q: So you're good friends with O.J. Simpson now. Right?
A: We were good friends way before. As a family, we were.
Q: Your friendship hasn't grown since Nicole's death. Is that with you're saying?
A: Our friendship has not grown?
Q: Yeah.
A: We're still friends.
Q: Has your friendship grown --
A: No.
Q: -- since Nicole's death?
A: No.
Q: You now spend time with Mr. Simpson alone. Correct?
A: I don't spend time with him alone.
Q: At the time of Nicole's death, Nicole was primarily your friend, not O.J. Simpson. Is that true?
A: True.
Q: Okay. How many times have you been in Mr. Simpson's company since his acquittal and release from jail?
MR. KRAMER: Do you understand that question?
THE WITNESS: How many times?
MR. KRAMER: The "company," in his "company," what do you mean by that?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you understand the question? How many times have you been with him?
A: With him?
Q: Yes.
A: With the family, many times.
Q: How many?
A: I don't know.
Q: October, November, December, January, February. We are now March 19th. So you have five and a half months. How many times have you been with Mr. Simpson?
A: Okay. Whenever the kids were around.
Q: How many times?
A: I don't remember. I can't count that. Whenever the kids were around.
Q: Numerous times. Right?
A: Numerous times.
Q: And where have you been in his company? In his house, Rockingham?
A: When I drop off kids, yes.
Q: And you go and visit with him for a while at the house?
A: Yes.
Q: At Rockingham, 360 North Rockingham?
A: Right.
Q: And you've been in that house numerous occasions since Mr. Simpson's release from jail?
A: Yes.
Q: And have you spent any time with Mr. Simpson since his release from jail other than at 360 North Rockingham?
A: Other than that?
Q: Yes, at any other location, any other place.
A: That's it.
Q: Are you unsure?
A: Well, I'm trying to remember.
Q: Please, I want you to.
A: When the kids went to Santa Barbara, I dropped off Leslie to Santa Barbara.
Q: Did you visit with Mr. Simpson there?
A: Mr. Simpson was there with his friends.
Q: When was this?
A: Before December.
Q: Where in Santa Barbara?
A: Santa Barbara. I don't remember, but it's in Santa Barbara.
Q: Where did you drop them off in Santa Barbara?
A: At his friends' house.
Q: Who was the friend?
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: Who is [Name Deleted]?
A: [Name Deleted] is O.J.'s friend. I met her the first time in Santa Barbara.
Q: Where does she live?
A: I don't know.
Q: You dropped your children off?
A: Yeah. Leslie.
Q: For what reason?
A: Because that's where Sydney was, and she wanted Nicole -- I mean Leslie to be there.
Q: At the house of [Name Deleted]?
A: Yes.
Q: And that's where your children went?
A: Right.
Q: Did they go anyplace else?
A: No.
Q: And then they came back home?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. And did you visit with Mr. Simpson on that occasion?
A: Did I visit him?
Q: Yes, when you dropped off the children.
A: Well, [Name Deleted] invited me to have dinner with them because --
Q: So who was present at this dinner? What adults were present?
MR. BAKER: You cut her off again.
THE WITNESS: It was the [Name Deleted]s' family and me and O.J. and the kids.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I see. Did you come home that evening?
A: No.
Q: Where did you spend the night?
A: Well, I spent it there with the [Name Deleted]s.
Q: Okay. And where did Mr. Simpson spend the night?
A: Mr. [Name Deleted] spent -- I mean Mr. Simpson spend it there, too.
Q: So you and Mr. Simpson slept in the same house that evening. Is that right?
MR. BAKER: Relevancy.
THE WITNESS: He was in the guest house.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I didn't ask you if you slept with him, although I will in a moment. I am only asking you if you slept in the same house.
A: Same house?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: And how many times since his release from jail have you slept in the same house with O.J. Simpson?
A: That's one time. That's in Santa Barbara. They didn't want me to go home because it was too far to pick up the kids.
Q: You sound very defensive. I'm just asking you --
A: You know what? Because --
Q: Because why?
A: Mr. Pet- --
B: Petrocelli.
A: I don't know your last name. Can't even pronounce it.
Q: Petrocelli. Why are you defensive?
A: Because of what the media has said yesterday.
Q: What did they say yesterday?
A: That I am having an affair with Mr. Simpson, and that's a lie. I see Mr. Simpson because of my kids. I will not deny my kids' friendship with his kids.
Q: And because of the friendship --
A: Sydney and Justin were Nicole's kids, and they've been friends with my kids since they were little, and I will continue to do that because Nicole and I said the same thing: We will take care of these kids no matter what.
Q: Would you like to take a break?
MR. KRAMER: Yeah, let's take a moment.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 1. The time is approximately 11:51, and we are off the record.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 11:54. This is the beginning of tape No. 2.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, before the break, Ms. Fischman, you made a statement that Nicole told you that you should take care of her kids no matter what. Is that right? Is that what Nicole said to you?
A: Right.
Q: Meaning that if something should happen to her, she wanted you and your children to maintain a relationship with her children? Is that what she told you?
A: Nicole and I made a pact of whatever happens between us, that we will take care of our kids.
Q: And you would like to honor that pact. Is that what you're saying?
A: Exactly.
Q: And did Nicole tell you that if O.J. Simpson should kill her, she would like you to take care of her children?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Nicole never said that to me.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Nicole never uttered a word to you that O.J. Simpson might some day kill her. Is that what you're saying?
A: Nicole never said that to me.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you that O.J. told her, "If I ever catch you with another woman, I'll kill you"?
A: "If I ever catch you with another woman"?
Q: Yes. Did Nicole ever relate to you that O.J. had said -- excuse me. Did Nicole ever relate to you that O.J. had said to her, "If I ever catch you with another man, I will kill you"?
A: Nicole told me that, yes.
Q: When did Nicole tell that you?
A: When Nicole told O.J. about Marcus Allen.
Q: And that's about the time that Nicole told you.
A: Right.
Q: That O.J. had said this. Right?
A: Right.
Q: Was that in 1993 when Nicole was living at Gretna Green?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. And did Nicole ever tell you on any other occasions that O.J. said he might kill her?
A: No.
Q: Did you report that statement to the police?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Didn't pay attention. It's like I didn't --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Excuse me. After Nicole's death did you report that statement to the police?
A: After Nicole's...I probably did.
Q: Okay. Do you know of any person -- prior to Nicole's death, do you know of any person who you think had it out to kill her?
A: No.
Q: Other than the statement that O.J. -- other than the statement Nicole made to you that O.J. Simpson said that he might kill her, did she ever tell you that anybody else might kill her?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Might kill her?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes. Or would kill her.
A: No.
Q: So the only person that Nicole Simpson ever told you that might some day kill her is O.J. Simpson. True?
A: True.
Q: Now getting back to the evening at the -- what's that family's name in Santa Barbara? I didn't write it down.
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: Excuse me?
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: [Name Deleted]. What is [Name Deleted]'s first name?
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: Is [Name Deleted] married?
A: Yes.
Q: What's her husband's name?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Had you ever met the [Name Deleted]s before this occasion?
A: No.
Q: Had you ever heard of them?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you know how long O.J. Simpson has known the [Name Deleted]s?
A: A long time.
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Long time. Now, the only occasion that you have slept in the same house with Mr. Simpson was at this place at the [Name Deleted]s' residence in Santa Monica?
A: Could you rephrase that?
MR. KRAMER: Santa Barbara?
MR. PETROCELLI: Santa Barbara. Excuse me.
Q: That's the only occasion when you and Mr. Simpson slept in the same house together since Nicole's death?
MR. BAKER: I think she said there's a guest house also.
THE WITNESS: Yes, it's the first time.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you and he sleep together?
A: No
Q: Have you ever had a sexual relationship with Mr. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever solicited such a relationship with him?
A: Solicited?
Q: Yes. Have you ever sought to have such --
A: No.
Q: -- a relationship with him?
A: No.
Q: No? Never?
A: Never.
MR. BAKER: Argumentative. Badgering a non-party witness. This is a deposition for ENTERTAINMENT TONIGHT, not this litigation anymore, Dan.
MR. PETROCELLI: Are you finished, Mr. Baker?
MR. BAKER: Right now I am.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
Q: Has he ever solicited an interest in having a sexual relationship with you?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever discussed it with each other?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Have you been out to dinner together at all?
A: After when? After the verdict?
Q: Nicole's death.
A: No.
Q: Have you eaten any --
A: Oh, yes, yes. In Santa Barbara with the kids, we went to a Chinese restaurant.
Q: Who went?
A: Everybody.
Q: You, Mr. Simpson?
A: The [Name Deleted]s, [Name Deleted]s' kids, my kids, Sydney and Justin.
Q: Okay. Is that the only time that you've had a meal with Mr. Simpson since his release from jail?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you had any meals at his house?
A: Yes.
Q: How many?
A: I don't -- numerous times.
Q: Since Nicole's death?
A: Well, when the kids are there when I picked them up, I go to their kitchen, and then if there's food, I eat.
Q: Okay. So you have a very friendly relationship right now. Is that right?
A: I was friendly with the family, yes.
Q: And you're still very friendly with Mr. Simpson. Right? Currently.
A: Yes.
Q: Your kids go there every other weekend?
A: Most of the time, yes, whenever the kids are there.
Q: And how long do they stay there?
A: They stay there whenever Sydney is there. So from --
Q: No. How long during the day?
A: Oh, all day.
Q: Both days?
A: Yes.
Q: They sleep over?
A: Yes.
Q: And you drop them off on Saturday?
A: Yes.
Q: And when do you come get them?
A: Sunday, Sunday night.
Q: And do you spend lengthy periods of time there on Saturday and Sunday?
A: Not really. I just drop them off, and then that's it.
Q: Okay. Have you been to any parties with Mr. Simpson?
A: Parties?
Q: Any social events, other than this event at the [Name Deleted]s' residence.
MR. BAKER: After October 3rd?
THE WITNESS: What do you mean -- no. What do you mean, "parties"?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Any events where there were people gathering socially at that time.
A: No.
Q: Super Bowl party.
A: Well, you know, when he had friends, yes, I was there, yeah.
Q: Why did you say no a couple minutes ago?
A: Well, I don't know what you mean by "events."
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I said "party." You didn't know what I meant by "party" either?
A: You see, his house --
MR. BAKER: I am going to object as vague and ambiguous. "Party" can mean different things to different people.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I want to get the truth. Do you have any reason for not telling the truth here?
A: I'm telling the truth, but I'm just getting confused with your questions, because when you ask me questions, when you say "gathering," their house is a lot of people there all the time.
Q: I want to know everything.
MR. BAKER: So is that a party to you?
THE WlTNESS: Fine.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Tell me --
A: Do you consider that a party? If I --
Q: Tell me each time you've been to Rockingham since his acquittal and release from jail when there have been gatherings of people other than your children and his children.
A: Whenever my kids were there, I go there, and, you know, that's it. I don't go there without my kids. Is that how you -- is that what you want?
Q: No.
A: That's it.
Q: You went there for a Super Bowl party. Is that right?
A: But my kids -- because my kids were there.
Q: Okay. And who else was there? What adults were there?
A: Oh, I don't remember. There were -- I mean, there were -- everybody was there.
Q: Who's "everybody"?
A: His family.
Q: What witnesses in this case were there?
A: Witnesses in that case?
Q: Yeah, what people who are involved as witnesses in this case?
MR. BAKER: In the criminal case or the civil case?
MR. PETROCELLI: Either one.
MR.BAKER: Assuming she even knows.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I mean, I don't know most of the names. I mean, his family was there.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Just his family. No one else, no other friends?
A: No
Q: Is that whet you're saying, just family?
MR. KRAMER: You're asking about the --
MR. PETROCELLI: Super Bowl.
MR. KRAMER: -- some function during the Super Bowl --
MR. PETROCELLI: Super Bowl.
MR. KRAMER: -- this year?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
MR. KRAMER: Do you remember who was there, Cora?
THE WITNESS: I don't even know if he had a Super Bowl party. He didn't even have any.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You told me he did.
MR. BAKER: I think she said a gathering.
THE WITNESS: It was -- see, what happens, I went to pick up the kids, and there were food outside so I ate. There's food, so that's it. I mean -- but I didn't sit down there and watch Super Bowl. I'm not even into Super Bowl. I don't think I -- my kids were there, yes, and I went to pick them up, so I ate because there was food there. They offered me -- her sister -- his sister offered me food, and I ate.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You're friends of the familUy? You're a friend of the --
A: I'm not friends of the family. I mean, I know them.
Q: You talk to them when you see them there?
A: I talk to them when I see them.
Q: Have you been to any parties at Mr. Simpson's house since his acquittal from jail?
MR. KRAMER: Do you understand --
What do you mean by "parties"?
MR. PETROCELLI: I am not going to define that term.
THE WITNESS: You know what? No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. Have you been to any sitdown dinners at his house?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. How many?
A: Once.
Q: What was that?
A: The Christmas Day party.
Q: Okay. And who was there?
A: Ron Fischman, Jason and Arnelle, Ohlmeyers.
Q: Don Ohlmeyer?
A: Yes.
Q: Who else?
A: Who else was there. And then our kids were there. We exchanged kids.
Q: Anyone else?
A: I don't remember. Oh, and then Arnelle's friends.
Q: Was Christian Reichardt there?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever seen Christian Reichardt at Mr. Simpson's house since Mr. Simpson was released from jail?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And have you ever seen -- have you ever been in Mr. Reichardt's company since Mr. Simpson's release --
A: Yes.
Q: -- from jail? When?
A: I go for my back.
Q: I see. So he treats you?
A: Yes.
Q: What about on a social basis?
A: I've had coffee with him, yes.
Q: Okay. On how many occasions?
A: Numerous occasions.
Q: Just you and he alone?
A: Yes.
Q: Anyone else ever present?
A: Anyone ever present? No.
Q: No. Okay. Now, other than the Christmas Day party, did you attend any other parties at Mr. Simpson's residence since his release from jail?
MR. BAKER: We've got to get a definition of "party."
THE WITNESS: No more. That's it. I told you that's one time, that the Christmas Day.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. And have you been at any other social events at Mr. Simpson's residence since his release from jail?
MR. KRAMER: Do you understand what that term is?
THE WITNESS: Social events?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Okay. Have you received any gifts from Mr. Simpson since his release from jail?
A: No
Q: Have you given him any gifts?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And you've never traveled anywhere with him since his --
A: No.
Q: -- release from jail? Okay. Have you had any conversations with Mr. Simpson since his release from jail about this case?
A: Yes.
Q: About this deposition?
A: No.
Q: About your testimony?
A: No.
Q: About your knowledge of the facts?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. How many such conversations have you had?
A: I don't remember. I don't remember.
Q: By the way, were you at Mr. Simpson's house the day of his acquittal?
A: No.
Q: Okay. When is the first time you saw Mr. Simpson after his release from jail?
A: I would say a week or two weeks after.
Q: And who contacted whom?
A: His housekeeper called.
Q: Who is his housekeeper?
A: Gigi.
Q: What did she call for?
A: She said that "Mr. Simpson is here." I said, "Okay," and I asked him how he's doing, and I said, "Where are the kids? When are we going to see the kids?" So...
Q: If you thought Mr. Simpson were guilty, would you let your children visit his children at his house?
A: If I thought he was guilty?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't know.
Q: You said you had a pact with Nicole. Would you honor that pact if Mr. Simpson were guilty or found guilty?
A: I probably would. Because our kids come first.
Q: Tell me about your conversations with Mr. Simpson concerning your knowledge of the facts and this lawsuit.
MR. KRAMER: In this lawsuit?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
MR. KRAMER: The civil case?
MR. PETROCELLI: (Nods head.)
Q: Relate them to me.
A: We always talk about Nicole, you know. We try to relive Nicole. That's all.
Q: What does he say?
A: I don't remember. I mean, it's...
Q: You don't remember?
A: Well, we always talked about Nicole, what happened, what -- you know, this whole thing. I mean, it's like reliving the whole thing, reliving two years of their life.
Q: So you and he have long conversations about the last couple of years of Nicole's life? Is that what you're saying?
A: Yeah.
Q: Why do you have those conversations?
A: Because part I'm trying to understand what really happened.
Q: And do you have a better understanding now that you've had a chance to talk to Mr. Simpson?
A: Well, but he talked to me even before, when Nicole was alive. I mean, he called me every time there was -- they had a problem.
Q: Excuse me. You said that "I'm trying to understand what really happened."
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And now that you've had a chance to talk to Mr. Simpson numerous occasions at length about what really happened, do you now have a better understanding?
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You don't?
A: I don't think I'll ever find out the answer.
Q: The answer to what really happened?
A: Right.
Q: What do you mean by "what really happened"? Why she was killed and how she was killed?
A: Exactly.
Q: So you and Mr. Simpson spend long hours talking about that?
A: I did not say "long hours."
Q: Many conversations. Right?
A: I was -- not many conversations. I mean, we always -- we talk about kids, too. I mean, I don't know how to say this. This is like when you talk --
MR. KRAMER: Slow down and regroup your thoughts and say it as best as you can.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Has Mr. Simpson told you how Nicole was killed?
A: No.
Q: Does he -- has he told you how he believes she was killed?
A: No.
Q: Has he offered to you a single suggestion or idea about how she was killed?
A: No.
Q: Has he ever identified to you a single person that he thinks is responsible for killing Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Are you aware of anything Mr. Simpson has done to locate the so-called real killer or killers?
A: Have you what?
Q: Have you talked to Mr. Simpson about anything that he has done to locate the so-called real killer or killers?
A: Yeah, he told me.
Q: What did he tell you?
A: That he's got investigators.
Q: And what has he told you about that?
A: That's it. I didn't ask him any more questions.
Q: You asked him, "What are you doing, O.J., to find the killer or killers?"
A: Exactly.
Q: When did you ask him that?
A: The first time I saw him after the verdict, you know, weeks after the verdict.
Q: And what did he say to you? "I've got investigators"?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he say anything else to you?
A: That's about it.
Q: Did you ask him anything else beyond that?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask him, "What are the investigators doing?"
A: No, I didn't ask that.
Q: Did he tell you who the investigators were?
A: No, he didn't tell me.
Q: Did he ask you to sit down and meet with his investigators to provide them information to assist them in their investigation?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever met with his investigators?
A: No.
Q: Do you even know who they are?
A: I don't know them.
Q: Do you know a single thing these investigators have done?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You've never been contacted by them?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever asked to meet the investigators so you could help find the real killer or killers?
A: No.
Q: Are you interested in finding the real killer or killers?
A: Yes.
Q: What have you done in that regard?
A: Nothing.
Q: Why?
A: Because I'm out of energy. Okay?
Q: Do you have any plans --
A: I have a family.
Q: Do you have any plans to do anything?
MR. BAKER: You're cutting her off.
THE WITNESS: Do I have any plans?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah.
A: I don't have the money to do it.
Q: Mr. Simpson does, though. Right?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you asked him that?
A: No.
Q: Have you been approached by any of Mr. Simpson's lawyers in this case about your knowledge or information?
A: Have I been approached?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: By whom?
A: Mr. Leonard.
Q: Daniel Leonard?
A: Yes.
Q: And when -- Did you meet with Mr. Leonard?
A: Yes.
Q: On how many occasions?
A: On -- I met him before at his house.
Q: At whose house?
A: Mr. Simpson's house.
Q: You were there with Mr. Simpson and Mr. Leonard?
A: No. Well, when I went to pick up the kids, Mr. Leonard was there, and
he introduced himself.
Q: Okay. Did you talk about the case then?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk about the case another time?
A: Yes.
Q: Where was that?
A: At my house.
Q: And who was present?
A: He and I.
Q: Anyone else?
A: No one.
Q: For a part of the time?
A: No. He -- it was only Mr. Leonard and I.
Q: Was there anyone else in the house --
A: No.
Q: -- at the time?
A: No.
Q: The two of you were alone?
A: Yes.
Q: For how long?
A: For an hour.
Q: Did Mr. Leonard take any notes?
A: No.
Q: Was it tape-recorded?
A: No.
Q: And when was that meeting?
A: Before March 7, you know, my subpoena.
Q: It was about this deposition?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And what did Mr. Leonard and you discuss?
A: He asked me questions, like what you're doing to me.
Q: Okay. And did he discuss things that might come up at the deposition?
A: No, he didn't say.
Q; You said he asked you questions.
A: Right.
Q: Questions of the sort that are coming up at this deposition? Questions like the ones I'm asking you?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you gave him the answers. Right?
A: No. He didn't ask me questions. He asked me what I think -- what -- Gave you the answers, yes.
Q: You gave him the answers. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And then he would discuss with you your answers. Right?
A: No.
Q: He would follow up on your answers. Right?
A: He would ask -- yes.
Q: And what were the different topics you discussed with Mr. Leonard?
A: Different topics?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: About Nicole.
Q: Did you tell him -- Mr. Leonard about the solicitation and drug use?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. So that's another person that you've told, then. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Does that bring to mind anyone else you may have told that to?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. What else did you and Mr. Leonard talk about?
A: If -- I don't remember. Just the same thing as what you were telling me -- you were asking me.
Q: He would ask you the same questions I'm asking you?
A: Pretty much, yes.
Q: Okay. And you answered them. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Were you under oath at that time, do you know?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You have not met with me, have you?
A: No.
Q: Have you met with Mr. Brewer?
A: No.
Q: Or Mr. Kelly?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Or any other lawyers representing the plaintiffs in this case, the Goldman family or the Brown family?
A: No.
Q: Have you met with any other lawyer for O.J. Simpson other than Daniel Leonard?
A: No. That's it: Mr. Leonard.
Q: Have you had any --
MR. KRAMER: Are you talking about in connection with the civil case?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you had any telephone conversations with any lawyer?
A: No, no conversations.
Q: Now, did you meet with any lawyers for Mr. Simpson's criminal defense team?
A: Did I meet?
Q: Yeah. Talk with them, meet with them, give them information.
A: No.
Q: Not one of them?
A: No.
Q: Okay. So you were never approached or contacted by any of them?
A: I spoke to Mr. Shapiro.
Q: You did?
A: Yeah. This was a long time ago.
Q: In - where?
A: I don't remember. It was some house.
Q: Whose house?
A: Mr. -- our neighbor's house.
Q: Which neighbor is that?
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: [Name Deleted]?
A: No.
Q: Oh, that's Harouch. Excuse me. Who are the [Name Deleted]?
A: Gary [Name Deleted]'s house.
Q: Who is he?
A: A friend of Mr. Shapiro.
Q: Okay. And you met at his house?
A: Well, because I didn't want to meet at the office because I didn't have time.
Q: At whose office?
A: At his office.
Q: Okay. Is [Name Deleted], is that Amy and Gary [Name Deleted]?
A: Uh-huh.
MR. KRAMER: Is that a yes?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Were these friends of Nicole, do you know?
A: Yes.
Q: The [Name Deleted]?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. I mentioned to you the Harouch family. Do you know who they are?
A: No.
Q: Okay. How long was your meeting with Mr. Shapiro?
A: Like half an hour.
Q: Is that the only time you met with any of Mr. Simpson's lawyers?
A: Yes.
Q: What about any investigators of Mr. Simpson or his lawyers? Did you meet with any of them or talk with any of them?
A: I don't remember. I mean, I was talking to a lot of investigators before. I mean...
Q: You don't remember?
A: No, I don't remember.
Q: Okay.
A: I'm sorry.
Q: You talked about an interview or a discussion with Michael Viner. Do you recall that? a tape recording?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have that tape recording?
A: Oh, no, I don't have that tape.
Q: Have you ever seen a transcription of it?
A: No, but it showed -- yeah, it showed in the newspaper.
Q: It was in the newspapers?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you know if -- do you know why Mr. Viner recorded his conversation with you?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you ask him to?
A: Yes.
Q: Why?
A: Because he wanted to record at that time -- I don't know. He recorded it because, I guess, to meet with magazine or whatever.
Q: So you and he had a private meeting, it was tape-recorded, and he was going to take this recording and give it to or show it to or play it to other people?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And where did you and he meet?
A: At his office.
Q: And how long?
A: I don't remember. An hour, two hours.
Q: Okay. Now, you told me that originally the purpose of this was to respond to Faye's book. Right?
A: Right.
Q: So what did you and Mr. Viner talk about for two hours?
A: Well, it's about Nicole and different -- the men in her life. Pretty much it's the same thing as I told you.
Q: What was your point in talking about those issues? You said that the point of this was --
A: Because he asked me questions.
Q: -- to respond to Faye's book and the unfair portrayal of Nicole in that book.
A: Because he asked me questions and I answered them.
Q: Okay. Did you authorize him to issue a statement to the press responding on your behalf?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: Because I guess he didn't like what I have to say about Faye Resnick, so...
Q: Is that what he told you?
A: That's what Robin told me and Cici told me.
Q: Well, did you then on your own without Mr. Viner respond to Faye Resnick's book?
A: I did not respond at all. I mean, it didn't come out, so...
Q: What didn't come out?
A: Whatever statement I made.
Q: Why not?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I'm a little confused. You're telling me that you went to Mr. Viner's so you could respond to Resnick's book. He didn't want to participate because you were critical of Resnick. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And you then did nothing more about it?
A: Nothing, because he said to me nobody -- that there were no offers.
Q: Offers for what?
A: To write the article, what I said, the statement I made.
Q: You mean you were looking for money?
A: I was not looking for money, okay --
Q: This was for money, you mean? You were going to make a response for money. Is that what you're saying?
A: No, I did not do it for money.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I said to Mr. Viner, "I would like to make a statement about my friend," okay.
And he said, you know, "What do you have to say?" That's it. And then he told me, he says, you know, "You can make money out of this."
I said, "I don't care. I just want to make a statement about my girlfriend. I want to correct what Faye Resnick said."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: But you never made that statement.
A: No.
Q: And because nobody would take the statement from you. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you try --
A: This is what he told me.
Q: Did you try to give the statement to anyone?
A: No.
Q: Did you call anybody up and say, "I have some information I would like to release to you," any member of the media? Did you do that?
A: I didn't want to talk to the media anymore. I was like -- I thought this guy was a good guy.
Q: Who?
A: Mr. Viner.
Q: Now, did anybody ever learn about your conversation with Mr. Viner?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: Did anyone?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah. Did you ever tell anyone about it?
A: God, here we go again. I told probably the same group of people now.
Q: Okay. Where did you and Mr. Viner meet again?
A: At his office.
Q: Just the two of you?
A: With two other guys from -- a reporter -- two reporters. I don't remember.
Q: So now there's two other people at the meeting with you and Mr. Viner?
A: Yes.
Q: And who are these people?
A: I don't remember. They were two guys from tabloids.
Q: So your meeting with Mr. Viner was with members of the tabloids?
A: Yes.
Q: So you wanted to make a statement to the tabloids?
A: No. He suggested to me to talk to tabloid to get a -- for everybody to hear. He said the tabloid is what people see right away, and that's why.
Q: And you agreed to do that?
A: I was confused. Okay? I didn't know what was going on. I was just trying to see what would be the best place for me to even talk to --
Q: It had nothing to do with your desire to investigate the exploitation of your story for money. Is that right?
MR. BAKER: You interrupted her last answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that right?
MR. BAKER: It's argumentative this question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that your testimony, that your sitting now with Mr. Viner and two members from a tabloid to tell your story had nothing to do with your desire to make money?
A: No, I had no desire to make money.
Q: No concern whatsoever.
A: No.
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I just wanted to correct -- I didn't know, but this is what Cici told me. Cici told me, "If you need to speak, go to Michael Viner. He will help you."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you give the tabloids permission to use the story?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: I did not give them permission.
Q: Why not?
A: Why?
Q: Did they tell you they were unwilling to write the story?
A: Because Michael -- I don't know. I don't know.
Q: Because why?
A: I don't know. Because probably Michael Viner didn't want to bring it out.
Q: It was your story, not Michael Viner's. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, in truth, you told those members of the tabloid that they didn't have permission to write this story. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: That's the truth.
A: Correct.
Q: And the truth is, had you given them permission, they would have written it. Correct?
MR. KRAMER: If you know.
MR. BAKER: Speculation and argumentative.
MR. KRAMER: If you know.
THE WITNESS: What?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: If you had given them permission to use the story, they would have used it, and they told you so. Correct?
A: If I gave them permission?
Q: Yes.
A: I didn't give them permission.
Q: Had you given them permission, they would have used the story. Correct?
MR. KRAMER: If you know.
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: Yes, probably.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So your statement before that no one was willing to take the statement was false. Correct?
A: What? I didn't -- I'm lost.
Q: Your testimony just a few minuses ago that nobody was prepared to take your statement was false --
MR. BAKER: Argumentative --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: -- correct?
MR. BAKER: -- mischaracterizes her testimony.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You gave false testimony in this deposition just a few minutes ago. Isn't that true?
MR. KRAMER: Stop bullying her.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Answer the question, please.
A: I'm lost. My mind is out now. I mean, would you mind repeating --
Q: You gave false testimony in this deposition just a few moments ago --
A: That's not true.
Q: -- correct?
A: That's not true.
MR. KRAMER: Let her answer.
THE WITNESS: That's not true.
MR. BAKER: You are harassing this witness.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You knew that these reporters would write the story and they would publish it and they would put it on the front page of the National Enquirer --
A: Right.
Q: -- had you given them permission to do so. Correct?
A: They didn't have any permission because they signed a non-disclosure agreement.
Q: So this had nothing to do with your wanting to respond to Faye Resnick in the interest of public information for your friend Nicole. This had to do with money. Correct?
A: No, this had nothing to do with money.
That's wrong. That's wrong.
Q: And you weren't being truthful in this deposition when I asked you about this earlier. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative, harassing, asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: That's wrong.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What's wrong?
A: That you're saying that I was after money to make a statement on behalf. At that time I didn't know that these were tabloids. Cici told me to go to Michael Viner.
Q: Excuse me. Are you trying to tell me that you did not know that the people in the room with you were from a tabloid, specifically the National Enquirer? Is that what you're saying?
A: Because Michael Viner told me that "You can express your statement about Nicole through these people."
I said, "No, I really don't want to do it," okay.
"But this is the only place you could do it."
I said, "No, I'd rather do it for a different magazine."
So that's it. And so these guys were there, and that was it, but --
Q: You knew --
A: -- we didn't talk about money.
Q: You knew they were from the National Enquirer. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. And you knew that they were interested in getting your story. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you knew that they would get your story with only your permission. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And you knew that they were willing to pay you. Correct?
A: Correct.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. We'll take a break now.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 12:27.
(At the hour of 12:27 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:30 p.m.)
(At the hour of 1:34 p.m., the deposition of CORA A. FISCHMAN was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 1:34.
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: We were talking about your attempt to clear Nicole's name in response to the Faye Resnick book. Do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: And in order to clear Nicole's name, you met with Michael Viner and the National Enquirer, and you've talked about that meeting. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Now, what ever happened after that meeting with the National Enquirer?
A: Nothing happened.
Q: Did you talk to them?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any further conversations?
A: I told Michael Viner I didn't want the National -- I didn't want a tabloid to do it. I said I'd rather do something through a decent magazine, but not National Enquirer.
Q: You didn't mention that to me before the break. Is that something --
A: No.
Q: -- you discussed during the break?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
MR. KRAMER: You are not going to talk about anything that you had conversations with me, attorney-client communication.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Something you just remembered over lunch?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: No. You explained -- you asked me the question clearly, so --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, Miss Fischman, at the time you sat down with the National Enquirer, you knew that the representatives there were from the National Enquirer. Correct?
A: Right.
Q: But you agreed to talk on the condition that they pay you if they used --
A: No, there was no --
Q: -- the story.
MR. KRAMER: Let him finish his question, and then you can answer. Okay?
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You agreed to talk to the National Enquirer. In other words, you didn't get up and storm out of the room and say, "I'm not talking to the tabloids." Correct? Is that correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. And you agreed to talk to the National Enquirer on the condition that if they used the story, they were going to have to pay you. Right?
A: There was no payment discussed.
Q: No, but they were going to have to pay you.
A: Michael Viner said they are going to pay me.
Q: And you agreed with that. Right?
A: I did not agree on anything.
Q: Did you object to Mr. Viner's statement to that effect?
A: Mr. Viner told me, "Okay, we'll see what you have to say."
Q: Did you object when Mr. Viner said that they will have to pay you? Yes or no.
MR. BAKER: Harassing. You don't have...
THE WITNESS: I did not object.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. By the way, have you seen a transcript of that tape recording?
A: No.
Q: Have you heard the tape?
A: No.
Q: Ever?
A: Ever.
Q: Ever talked to Mr. Viner about it?
A: No.
Q: When was the last time you've spoken with Mr. Viner?
A: That was the last time. That was after -- after that tape I told -- after that discussion I had with him, I told him, "I don't want to do it. I don't want to do a tabloid. I'd rather do it with a magazine," or something like that.
Q: And did you thereafter?
A: No.
Q: So you did nothing to clear Nicole's name. Correct?
A: No.
Q: Is that correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Okay. And you thought that telling the National Enquirer about the solicitation of men by Nicole and free-basing by Nicole would somehow serve to clear her name?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WlTNESS: Michael Viner asked me those questions, okay, so I answered them.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You could have refused to answer. Right?
A: I could have.
Q: But you didn't. Right?
A: I did not.
Q: Okay. So this is all Michael Viner's fault. He forced --
A: No, it's not Michael Viner's fault.
Q: -- you to talk. It was your decision. Right?
A: No, it's not Michael Viner's fault.
Q: It was your choice to talk, not Michael Viner's. Right?
MR. KRAMER: Let him fmish his question, and then think about it and make your answer. Okay?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: It was your choice to talk, not Michael Viner's. Right?
A: Of course it was my choice to talk.
Q: He didn't have a gun to your head. Right?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Are you looking for a book publisher right now?
A: Am I looking for a book publisher?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: No.
Q: Is someone looking for a publisher on your behalf?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: Mr. John Taylor Williams.
Q: Okay. What is the subject of your book?
A: It's about my reladonship with Nicole.
Q: What material -- source material do you have in writing for that book? Any?
A: Source in writing?
Q: Source material.
MR. KRAMER: Do you understand what that is?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Source material is documentation, papers, pictures, anything you might refer to to help write your book.
Do you have any such source material?
A: I don't have it.
Q: Are you going to be getting some from anyone?
A: Probably.
Q: From whom?
A: Miss Jean Strauss.
Q: Where is Jean Strauss going to get it?
A: What?
Q: Where is Jean Strauss going to get the source material?
A: Well, she's the one -- I'm collaborating the book with her.
MR. KRAMER: I don't think the witness understands "source material."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What I am trying to find out is whether you have in your possession or have access to obtaining any papers, any writings, any photographs, any materials from which you will then use to write your book.
A: I do, yes.
Q: Where are those?
A: I have -- Miss Strauss has it.
Q: What does Miss Strauss have?
A: Pictures.
Q: What else does Miss Strauss have?
A: Well, information about myself and Nicole.
Q: Besides photographs -- you mean photographs when you said "Pictures"?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You have to answer audibly.
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Does she have anything else in terms of pieces of paper that you gave her?
MR. KRAMER: Could you perhaps give Miss Fischman some ideas -- some examples of source materials so that she can answer your question?
THE WITNESS: I don't have any.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you give Miss Strauss anything other than photographs?
A: No, I didn't give her -- it's just photographs.
Q: You just gave her photographs.
A: Yes.
Q: What photographs did you give her?
A: Photographs of the kids.
Q: Whose children?
A: My children and Sydney and Justin.
Q: Any other photographs?
A: My photograph with her -- I mean my birthday party in 1993, the Christmas pictures that we had in '93.
Q: Any videotapes?
A: No.
Q: Can you bring those photographs tomorrow?
A: Okay, yes.
MR. KRAMER: I actually have, at your request of my associate, the negatives and the pictures in connection with the National Enquirer lawsuit. I didn't know when to give those to you, but I have those here.
MR. PETROCELLI: Please give them to me now.
Q: While we're waiting for those pictures, on the National Enquirer, when did you discover -- the lawsuit, when did you discover that the photograph was missing?
A: When?
Q: Yeah.
A: Around that time when it came out in October.
Q: Is it one photograph?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, your lawyer has handed me four photographs. They all bear a date at the bottom of December 22, 1993.
A: Yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI: You want to pass those around to the other lawyers?
Q: While they are looking at those photographs, are these photographs that you took?
A: Yes.
Q: And was one of these photographs the one taken by the -- by this person that's the subject of your lawsuit?
A: Yes.
Q: You will identify that one for us?
A: Yes.
Q: Why is it that you are bringing a lawsuit against the Enquirer over one photograph?
MR. BAKER: Irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: Why?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah.
A: Because at that time when I was collaborating a book with Brooke Skulski, Brooke told me that they need pictures for this Christmas story. And so I have those pictures, and then when they wanted to use the family picture on front page, they said, "You know, the Star won't put that on front page because National Enquirer said they own the copyright."
And so that's when I said, "You know, they don't own the copyright."
So Brooke said -- I thought she was my friend. She said, "You know, Cora, they said you could sue them. They don't care. You can sue them and" -- and, you know, "and that's the only thing you can do," but they weren't gonna stop, and print that picture anyway.
Q: What Christmas story are you referring to?
A: The Christmas story of 1993, and it was published in 1994.
Q: By?
A: By Star. It was written by Brooke Skulski.
Q: I see. And you provided Brooke with photographs for that Star Magazine --
A: Exactly.
Q: -- story? And that's the story for which you were paid the money?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. And did you clear Nicole's name in that story?
A: Pretty much it was a good story about the family. It was -- there was nothing negative, because I told Brooke, "I don't want anything" -- I mean, I wanted her pictured as a mom and just, you know, things that we did.
Q: You have to speak up. How did the National Enquirer get this photograph?
A: How?
Q: Yeah. Did you give it to them --
A: No.
Q: -- originally?
A: No.
Q: Did you give Mr. Viner any photographs when you met with the National Enquirer?
A: No.
Q: Now, when you've had your many conversations with O.J. Simpson, since he got out of jail, about this case, have he and you discussed this topic of solicitation of men by Nicole?
MR. BAKER: I am going to object to the term "many."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You may answer.
A: Yes, I mentioned to him.
Q: And he has discussed it with you?
A: No.
Q: What do you mean, "No"? He's never discussed it with you?
A: No. Well, I told him, and he was shocked, couldn't believe it.
Q: Couldn't believe that Nicole did such a thing?
A: Yeah.
Q: And did you tell him about the free-basing?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And what was his reaction to that?
A: Well, he was shocked, because he said, "That's not the Nicole that I knew," you know, "Nicole was different."
Q: Now, Mr. Simpson told you to say these things at this deposition about solicitation of men --
A: No.
Q: -- by Nicole and free-basing of drugs, didn't he?
A: Who? If O.J.?
Q: Mr. Simpson told you to say these things.
A: No.
Q: You and he discussed that you would bring this out at this deposition. Right?
A: No.
Q: You deny that? You deny that, ever talking with Mr. Simpson that you would be testifying about these topics today?
A: What do you mean, I "deny"?
MR. KRAMER: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. KRAMER: He's asking -- You might want to rephrase it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you deny that you and Mr. Simpson have discussed that you would be talking about those topics at this deposition?
A: If I deny it? I -- see, you're just asking me questions, so I'm answering you. I mentioned to Mr. Simpson about what these things with Nicole but he didn't tell me to tell you.
Q: Did you talk about the fact that you would be testifying about these things
at the deposition?
A: No, we never talked about what would come out here.
Q: Okay. When did you first tell Mr. Simpson about the solicitation of men by Nicole and free-basing?
A: After the -- you know, when I saw him after the verdict, like a week, two weeks after, I was crying, I was teling him what happened, you know, what was Nicole doing, and he was shocked. He was crying, you know, so...
Q: You never told him on the telephone in your conversations?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
MR. KRAMER: What telephone conversations?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You spoke to him on the phone a number of times when he was in jail?
A: A number of times?
Q: Correct.
A: Not a number of times. Twice.
Q: Did you tell him on those two occasion?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you think it was important for him to know to defend himself in the criminal case?
A: I never -- I never volunteered information. He never asked me, and I never gave it to him, you know.
Q: But you volunteered it when he got out of jail, didn't you?
A: Well, because it was already all over the media, it was all over the press, and that's why I told him.
Q: What was in the press?
A: About this solicitation and the free-basing and stuff.
Q: And when did that come out in the press?
A: Faye Resnick's book.
Q: That was a year before Mr. Simpson's release from jail that it came out in the press. Right?
A: It was also in the tabloid --
Q: Okay. Now, during --
A: -- that they were doing cocaine and...
Q: During that year after it came out, did you ever discuss it with Mr. Simpson on the telephone?
A: I never discuss it with him over the phone.
Q: What did you discuss with him over the phone?
A: I don't remember.
Q: No recollection at all?
A: Well, I was crying. I mean, I don't remember. I was grieving for Nicole.
Q: You don't recall what you and O.J. discussed?
A: He was crying, too. He was crying.
Q: So what did you talk about?
A: We talked about Nicole.
Q: What did he want to know?
A: He missed Nicole, and we're trying to -- I don't know. We were grieving for Nicole.
Q: On the telephone together.
A: Yes.
Q: Did he ask you any questions about her activities during the last weeks and months of her life?
MR. KRAMER: This is again just the telephone conversations that they had --
MR. PETROCELLI: While he was in jail, right.
THE WITNESS: You know, I don't remember. I mean...
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You have no recollection?
A: We were crying about Nicole, what really happened, and stuff like that.
Q: You have no recollection of his inquiring about her activities. Is that your testimony?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: If he asked me, you mean?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: (Nods head.)
A: He did ask me a few things.
Q: What did he ask you?
A: "What happened to Nicole?"
Q: What did you say?
A: I said, "I don't know. I mean, you know, I said, "The last six weeks she was different."
Q: And what else did he ask you?
A: And he says, you know, "She want to go back. She doesn't want to go back." And he said, "I wanted to move on with my life. You know, I'm back with Paula. What's going on here?"
MR. KRAMER: Is this all the same time frame?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Are you telling us this is what Mr. Simpson told you on the telephone?
A: Yes.
Q: That he's back with Paula, "What's going on here?" That's what he said?
A: You know, it was so confusing. When you're grieving for a friend and you're trying to understand, I mean it's -- and that's what happened.
Q: Is that what he said to you, that he was back with Paula?
A: He was back with Paula, yes.
Q: And what did he say about Nicole that you were telling me about a few moments ago? First she wants to go back; then she doesn't want to go back? What did he say about that subject?
A: He says, "What does Nicole want?" you know. "She calls me. She says, `I want my family back,'and then when I'm -- you know, "and then she changes her mind. She says, `You know, O.J., I'm not ready. I'm confused.'"
MR. KRAMER: I think the witness has a different time frame.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You are relating conversations that you had with Mr. Simpson while he was in jail. Is that right?
A: Yeah, things like that, yeah.
Q: And he was talking to you about the fact that Nicole kept changing her mind about her desire to have a relationship with Mr. Simpson?
A: Right.
Q: And you knew all about that, of course, from your own private conversations with Nicole. Right?
A: I guess, yes.
Q: And what did you say to Mr. Simpson when he said that to you?
A: I don't remember. I was crying. I mean, it was -- we were just crying.
Q: Now, when they broke up for the last time, it was Nicole who ended the relationship. Right?
A: It was pretty much both of them.
Q: Now, you have previously told others that it was Nicole who ended it and she ended it in Cabo, and she told you when she came back that she ended the relationship. Is that true?
A: She didn't end it in Cabo.
Q: She told you she was going to end the relationship. Is that true?
A: That she was planning to, yes.
Q: Okay.
A: Yes.
Q: So Nicole told you she was planning to end the relationship. Correct?
A: Right. Correct.
Q: And she told that you when she came back from Cabo in April of 1994. Correct?
A: It has -- it's not after that. It's probably weeks after that. I'm not sure, but --
Q: After she came back from Cabo, sometime afterwards.
A: That's what she said, yes.
Q: You were not in Cabo with Nicole --
A: No.
Q: -- on that trip. Right?
A: Right.
Q: Faye Resnick was with her and the Jenners -- or Kris Jenner. Correct?
A: Right.
Q: Christian Reichardt?
A: Right.
Q: Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: And when she came back, she told you that she planned to end the relationship. Correct?
A: No, she didn't say that. She said she had a great time in Cabo, and she had the best time in Cabo, but then -- with O.J.
Q: Yeah.
A: And then she started going out with Faye, and then that's the week when she started saying, "I'm not going to Puerto Rico. I'm going to stay here."
Q: When did she tell you that she was going to end the relationship with O.J. Simpson?
A: She didn't say she wanted to end. She said that she was early in trying to go back to O.J. and that she wanted another year of herself without O.J.
Q: You previously testified just a few moments ago that she told you that she was planning to end the relationship with O.J. Simpson.
Do you want me to read that back to you?
A: You just read it to me.
Q: Okay. Now, she told you that. Correct?
A: To my recollection she said it, but she was not sure as to when she wanted to end it.
Q: When did she tell you that? That's what I'm asking you.
A: I don't remember.
Q: It was sometime when she came back from Cabo. Correct?
A: You're telling me that.
Q: No. I'm asking you that.
A: Oh, you're asking me.
Q: I'm asking. Did she tell you that she planned to end the relationship at some time when she came back from Cabo?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Not after her Cabo trip, but after that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When? What month?
A: When was the Cabo trip?
Q: April, middle of April 1994.
MR. SIMPSON: That's incorrect.
MR. PETROCELLI: Mr. Simpson wants to testify again. He says --
MR. BAKER: So do you.
THE WITNESS: She said it around --
MR. PETROCELLI: I'll be happy to swear him in again. In fact, I plan to do that.
MR. BAKER: Is that right?
MR. BREWER: Day ll, held hostage.
THE WITNESS: After -- See, now you distracted me.
MR. KRAMER: Hold on. Hold on second.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I'm sorry, Miss Fischman.
MR. KRAMER: Just regroup your thoughts, focus on --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I am asking you to give me your best estimate as to the time when Nicole Brown Simpson told you that she planned --
A: I'm trying.
Q: -- to end her relationship with O.J. Simpson.
That's the question.
A: Okay.
MR. KRAMER: So that I'm sure it's clear, you want to know not when the timing that it would end, but when the conversation took place. Is that right?
MR. PETROCELLI: I've been asking that about 30 times. It's crystal clear.
MR. KRAMER: Well, it's crystal clear to you. You're asking --
MR. PETROCELLI: It's crystal clear to anyone listening.
MR. BAKER: Not me.
MR. PETROCELLI: Almost everyone.
MR. KELLY: You don't count, Phil.
THE WITNESS: I will tell you a story.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: I really just want you to answer the question. Then you can tell me the story.
MR. KRAMER: Do you have the question in mind?
THE WlTNESS: It's probably two weeks after Cabo trip.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. Now, what's the story you want to tell?
A: No, I don't want to tell you.
Q: Do you have some story that you want to relate?
A: No, no. I wanted to tell you what happened those times.
Q: What happened?
A: That was it. She said that she had the best time with O.J., and that was it, and that's why when you told me afterwards, it couldn't happen --
Q: So what made her --
A: -- because she had said she had great sex with O.J.
Q: She had great sex with O.J.
A: Right.
Q: That's what she told you.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And what made her change her mind?
A: What made her change her mind?
Q: What made her decide to end the relationship? That is, what did she tell you, if anything?
A: Oh, God, she said that Faye and she met a guy in Cabo and that he's a good-looking guy.
Q: So she was interested in another man.
A: Yes. She said --
Q: This man named Brett?
A: Yeah. She said, "I mess around with her" -- "with him." I'm sorry.
Q: This is not Brett Shaves, by the way. Right?
A: No, no, no, no, no, no.
Q: This is another Brett. Right?
A: Another Brett. He's an actor, apparently.
Q: Okay. He lives here in town?
A: Yes.
Q: Have you seen him or ever spoken to him?
A: No.
MR. PETROCELLI: Before I get back to that subject again, why don't we identify each of these photographs. I will have copies made. What is the -- we are up to 152?
I am marking these 152, 153, 154 and 155.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibits 152 through 155 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.)
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: 152 is a picture of Mr. Simpson, Nicole and another gentleman; 153 is a picture of four children; 154 is a picture of two children; and 155 is a picture of Mr. Simpson, Nicole and their two children.
What is the picture that was --
A: This one (Indicating).
Q: -- taken?
A: That one (Indicating).
MR. KRAMER: Read the number on the bottom.
THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. It's --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Exhibit?
A: Exhibit 155.
Q: Okay. And this was taken in December of 1993?
A: Yes.
Q: And this is the picture that's the subject of your lawsuit?
A: Yes.
Q: This is in the Simpson residence?
A: Yes.
Q: Now take a look at Exhibit 152, and who is the gentleman in that picture depicted with Mr. Simpson and Nicole?
MR. KRAMER: I am handing the witness 152.
THE WITNESS: That's Ron Fischman.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. So you and Ron spent Christmas evening with the Simpsons?
A: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Thank you. I'll get copies made.
These are the negatives?
MR. KRAMER: Yes, they are.
MR. PETROCELLI: I can keep these negatives? Can I keep these prints?
MR. KRAMER: Actually, I can have copies of everything made for you, but these -- I took them this morning from my safe-deposit box. I need those for my lawsuit.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, we'll talk about that at a break. Okay?
Q: When -- did you tell Mr. Simpson about this relationship with Brett that Nicole had in May or June before Nicole's death? Did you tell him --
A: Before Nicole's death?
Q: Yeah, before.
A: No.
Q: Did you ever tell him anything about that relationship?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if he knew about it?
A: I don't know.
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You don't have any --
A: I don't think --
Q: -- information?
A: What?
MR. KRAMER: Let him finish his question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you have any information as to whether he knew about Nicole's relationship with Brett?
A: Do I have any information?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: During the -- a time after the Cabo trip, did Mr. Simpson call you from time to time inquiring what was wrong with Nicole; that they had a great time in Cabo and now she's not responding anymore? Did he ever call you and ask you anything like that?
A: No.
Q: Did he make any calls to you during the months of May or June of 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any contact at all with him during those two months?
A: No contact.
Q: You didn't see him at all. Is that right?
A: No.
Q: Throughout the month of May and throughout June before Nicole's death, you didn't see or speak to O.J. Simpson. Is that true?
A: I spoke to him at the recital.
Q: What about before the recital?
A: No, I don't think so.
Q: So when before the recital on June 12th had you last spoken to O.J. Simpson?
A: See, he was away. I don't know.
Q: I know what his schedule was.
A: Yeah.
Q: You don't need to tell me. I'm just asking you when you last spoke to him.
A: When I last spoke to him?
Q: Before June 12, 1994, either on the telephone or in person.
A: I spoke to him around -- oh, God, what -- May or April, around that time -- no, before -- I saw him -- he went to pick up the kids, and I was behind him. I said, "O.J., I want to talk to you," and then he went to -- he said, "Come to my house and we'll go around the neighborhood."
I said, "Okay, fine." So I just had to bring my son to a game. I went to his house, and we walked around the block, and at that time I told O.J., "You have one" -- I wanted -- see, I told him, "You have" -- "you could still save your marriage. Why don't you go and move to Florida?" She wanted to do. "That's the only way you can save -- get out of L.A."
Q: That's the only way you could save your marriage?
A: Yeah. I said, you know, "If you really want your marriage, Nicole wants her family, why don't you go and move to Florida?" And that was our conversation.
Q: What did he say?
A: Well, he said, you know, "This whole thing is crazy," you know. "I'm back with Paula, but I don't know what Nicole wants. Nicole wants me back. I try to go back, and then she keeps on changing her mind. What's going on here, Cora? What's going on?"
I said, you know, "Give her some time. Give her some time. You know, she wants to work things out, but" -- you know, that's pretty much the gist of our conversation.
Q: And did Nicole ask you to have that conversation?
A: No. I volunteered because I wanted to help their relationship because Nicole really wanted to go back, but she just didn't know when.
Because there were times when she said, "Cora, I really want to go back because I want to have my family back." Then at the end she says, you know, "When" -- she says, "You know, O.J. keeps on leaving me, you know. Every time he goes on trips I feel lonely." And so that's why she goes out with Faye and stuff like that.
Q: Why did you suggest to O.J. that he take Nicole to Florida to live?
A: Because when they tried to reconcile in April --
Q: Of what year? The year before?
A: Oh, God. '93.
Q: Yes?
A: O.J. said this is not the town for them. He says, "All these women, who are these women?" Stuff like that.
So O.J. said -- I mean Nicole said, "I'II move to wherever you" -- you know, "We can move."
So they suggested Florida because he loves golf, and Nicole and I even took golf lessons because she really wanted to work things out with -- you know, we took golf lessons at the Riviera Country Club.
Q: So you -- did Nicole suggest to you in May of 1994 that she wanted to move to Florida --
A: Yeah.
Q: -- with O.J.?
A: Yes.
Q: And when did she tell you that?
A: Well, she said, "I'm gonna move to Florida," you know. "That's where we're gonna move, and we're gonna play golf," you know. She just wanted her family.
Q: Now, when you -- Nicole had not been seeing any other men other than O.J. from 1993 in April until this incident in Cabo with Brett. Is that right?
A: Well, she saw Marcus Allen intermittently.
Q: But you understood starting in April of 1993 that O.J. and Nicole were going to try to work things out. Right?
A: Oh, yes, they tried, yes, right.
Q: And Mr. Simpson stopped seeing Paula Barbieri. Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And that process lasted for about a year. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And then when Nicole came back from Cabo, sometime when she -- after she returned, she told you that she was not going to see Mr. Simpson anymore. She was going to end the relationship. Right?
A: At some point, yes.
Q: And she told you she was interested in this Brett person. Right?
A: She was not interested with this Brett person, no. She really didn't care about the guy.
Q: But she wanted to see him.
A: She just wanted to have that --
Q: Freedom to date.
A: Right. She just wanted, yeah, to see the guy with Faye.
Q: Did she tell you that she wanted to date other men as well?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you what had caused her to decide to end her reconciliation process with Mr. Simpson?
A: She said that she was confused, that she still wants to -- she still wants -- she wanted the freedom, and that's about it.
Q: She wanted the freedom.
A: Right. She still wanted to go out with the girls.
Q: So those were the reasons: She wanted to go out with the girls and she wanted the freedom. Right?
A: Yeah, because O.J. will not allow him -- her to go out with girls and stuff like that if she'd go back to O.J.
Q: Okay. When you say "go back to O.J.," you mean move into Rockingham?
A: Exactly, right.
Q: Okay. So she then decided she wasn't prepared to move back into Rockingham and give up her freedom. Is that right?
A: Exactly.
Q: Okay. But you thought that you might try to patch things up between O.J. and her by talking to O.J. without asking Nicole for her permission in advance. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And when is the date of this walk around the house?
Was this Rockingham you walked around?
A: Uh-huh. We walked --
MR. KRAMER: Is that a yes?
THE WITNESS: You mean O.J. and I?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah.
A: We just walked around -- I mean just around Ashford, and then we went to his office.
Q: And when did this occur?
A: When?
Q: Yeah.
A: Oh, I don't remember. Somewhere around May. When he got back from Puerto Rico. I don't remember that. It's got to be May. May? April? I don't know.
Q: And where did you bump into Mr. Simpson?
A: At Carl Thorp, my kids' school. I told you he went to pick up his kids, and I was behind him to pick up my kids.
Q: And was that the first time you had spoken to Mr. Simpson in -- how long?
A: Months.
Q: You hadn't spoken to him since his return from Cabo or Puerto Rico?
A: I had not spoken to him? Yes, I have not spoken to him.
Q: And was this before or after Nicole's birthday on May 19?
A: Was this before -- before.
Q: It was before her birthday.
A: Yes.
Q: And what is your best estimate of the date?
A: I don't remember. I can't -- I would say late April, early May.
Q: Did you go to Christian Reichardt's party on April 30?
A: No.
Q: Okay. May 8 was a Sunday, and that was Mother's Day. Was your discussion with Mr. Simpson before or after Mother's Day?
A: Before.
Q: Before Mother's Day. Okay. Now, can you hear Mr. Simpson, by the way, talking to his lawyer, saying things like "That's not true" and so forth? Can you hear that?
A: No.
Q: Okay. If you do hear those comments, please disregard them. Okay?
A: Okay.
Q: Don't let him -- By the way, is his presence here influencing your testimony at all?
A: Not at all.
Q: Okay. It's very important that you not let his presence affect your testimony, that you tell the truth.
A: I am under oath. Right?
Q: You are under oath, exactly.
A: Okay.
Q: When Nicole told you that she was going to end the reconciliation process with O.J. Simpson, did you try to talk her out of it?
A: Not really, no.
Q: What did you say to her when she told you that's what she planned to do?
A: I don't remember. We had so many discussions that I don't -- I can't remember.
Q: What was her general state of mind during this time frame after she came back from Cabo and when she was talking to you about ending this reconciliation with O.J. Simpson? As communicated to you by her, what was her state of mind?
MR. KRAMER: Do you mean her mood? Is that what you mean?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What she was thinking, what her thoughts and feelings were.
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: She had this fear of aging. She said, you know, "I'm afraid of getting old," you know. "I'll be 60 years old and nobody's gonna look at me. O.J.'s gonna be 60 and O.J. will still find a 20-, 30-year-old wife, and I'll be 60; nobody's gonna look at me." So that was pretty much the stuff that --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did she communicate to you that because of her growing awareness of her age, she had an attraction for younger men?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you try to talk her out of those kinds of feelings and thoughts?
A: Actually, I said to her, "You just have to be careful," you know. That's pretty much what, you know...
Q: Did you and she have any discussions about whether Mr. Simpson knew about her seeing other men?
A: I'm sorry. Could you repeat that?
Q: Did you and she talk about whether or not O.J. Simpson knew that she was seeing other men in April or May of '94?
A: If O.J. knew?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you not to tell him?
A: No, she didn't tell me that, because she knew I wouldn't tell O.J.
Q: You would not tell him.
A: No. I mean...
Q: You wouldn't betray that confidence. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did -- what happened after you told O.J. about your idea that they should move off to Florida together? Did anything come of that to your knowledge?
A: Well, O.J. said, you know, "Nicole has to have a sense of commitment." That's pretty much the conversation.
Q: And O.J. was telling you that she lacked that commitment at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: And therefore he was not prepared to move to Florida?
A: No, he didn't say he's not prepared to. I mean, that was just the thought that I --
Q: Did he tell you that if Nicole would give him that commitment, that he would move to Florida?
A: Yeah, they would move anywhere. They even wanted to move to Cabo.
Q: Did you then communicate to Nicole your conversation with O.J.?
A: No.
Q: Never told her about it?
A: But she told me that, "I heard you spoke to O.J."
I said, "Oh, why? He told you?" And she said, "Yeah," so that was it, so --
Q: When did she tell you that?
A: A week after, two weeks after. Later on she told me.
Q: And was she upset with you?
A: She was not upset with me, no.
Q: Did she tell you whether she was going to make a commitment to him at that time?
A: No.
Q: At any time from this point when she told you that she was going to end the relationship did she tell you that she planned to go back to O.J. Simpson?
A: At some point in time, yeah, she was planning to.
Q: When did she tell you that?
A: She told me that several times. She said --
Q: I am focusing very specifically on the time periods of May and June of 1994.
A: Okay.
MR. BAKER: You cut her off very badly on that one.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: After she came back from Cabo in April of '94, not the past, and I would like to know: After she had the conversation with you when she said that she was going to stop the reconciliation process with Mr. Simpson, did she thereafter ever tell you that she planned to go back to him, to move into the house, for example, or anything like that?
A: No, because she was angry.
Q: She was angry?
A: Yeah.
Q: What was she angry about?
A: She was angry at -- she was mad at O.J.
Q: Why?
A: Because she spoke to O.J. that -- she said, you know, "O.J.'s trying to steal all my friends," and, you know, she said, "It's always O.J. trying to steal, trying to take all my friends away from me."
Q: Because they had split up and O.J. was responding by taking her friends? That's what she thought?
A: Well, that's what she told -- yeah. She thought that Faye -- that Faye was getting to be on his side.
Q: And she thought that O.J. was trying to buy some of her friends, too. Right?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: I don't know exactly -- what do you mean, "buy"?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Like pay Christian Reichardt $5,000. She made that comment to you, "He's trying to buy my friends," did she not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And years before when she initially split up with O.J., she confided in you that she felt very bad that many of her friends had abandoned her at that time --
A: Yes.
Q: -- in favor of O.J.
A: Yes.
Q: But you did not abandon her then.
A: Well, I became friendly with her when she split up already, so I was not friendly with them during the time they were married.
Q: But she saw the same thing happening again in May of 1994.
A: Exactly.
Q: Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And who were the friends that she told you were abandoning her in favor of O.J.?
A: Faye Resnick.
Q: Anyone else?
A: That's it. At that time she was very close to Faye.
Q: You and she -- throughout this period of time in May and June of 1994 before she died, you remained in a very close relationship with Nicole. Right?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. You never had a falling-out where you didn't talk to each other for days or weeks at a time. Right?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And you used to run almost every day. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And in the --
A: Except the time when he had -- she had pneumonia.
Q: She had double pneumonia?
A: Yes.
Q: And how long was she confined to the house? Do you remember?
A: Oh, God, I don't remember.
MR. KRAMER: Give your best estimate.
THE WITNESS: I'd say a week.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: A week? Did you visit her while she was ill?
A: One time, yes. I mean, I did almost every day, but Faye was always there.
Q: Okay. And would you call her on the phone?
A: Yes.
Q: So you didn't abandon her while she was ill with pneumonia, did you?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You kept in close contact with Nicole. Right?
A: Yes. Uh-huh.
Q: And Faye was there also. Right?
A: When I was there, yes, she was there.
Q: And did you see Mr. Simpson there frequently during that period of time?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole tell you that Mr. Simpson was trying to care for her during her illness?
A: Yeah. She said he sent flowers and chicken soup.
Q: And what did she tell you about that?
A: That was it. Because, you know, when I walked in there, I said, "Gee, you got flowers."
She said, "Oh, yeah, O.J. gave them to me."
Q: Did she tell you that because she got these flowers, that she was changing her mind and would now go back to O.J.?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did she tell you that O.J. was being very nice to her?
A: With the chicken soup, I guess so, yeah.
MR. KELLY: Miss Fischman, I can't hear you back here.
MR. PETROCELLI: "With the chicken soup, I guess so."
MR. KELLY: Okay.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did she tell you that O.J. had given her a birthday present?
A: Yes.
Q: What did she tell you about that?
A: She told me that she got a Cartier lighter and a bracelet.
Q: What kind of bracelet?
A: It's a diamond with sapphire bracelet.
Q: Were you shocked that O.J. had given her a cigarette lighter?
A: No.
Q: O.J. was anti-smoking, wasn't he?
A: I guess -- I don't even know, you know. I mean...
Q: You don't know?
A: No.
Q: Don't you remember an incident in a restaurant where he was ranting and raving about the women smoking and people smoking?
A: Yes, I remember that.
Q: So you knew he didn't approve of smoking. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Anyway, what about this bracelet?
A: The bracelet?
Q: Yeah. What kind of bracelet did Nicole describe to you?
A: I mean, it was this diamonds with sapphire in the middle, and she said, "You know, I can't have this. This is not me."
That's not Nicole. She doesn't use those -- she's not very flashy when it comes to jewelry.
Q: Did she tell you -- did she ever show you the bracelet?
A: Yeah.
Q: When?
A: When we went to Starbucks. She wore it. She said, "It's just not me."
Q: Was it an expensive bracelet?
A: Yeah.
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What did --
A: What?
Q: What was your estimate of its value?
A: I don't know. It was diamonds and platinum with sapphire. I don't know.
Q: Okay. Did she tell you why Mr. Simpson had given her such an expensive bracelet?
A: Well, that was actually, you know, I guess -- I don't know. I mean. she --
Q: What did she tell you?
A: She felt funny. She just felt funny with that bracelet. She said, "I feel guilty," you know.
"It's not my" -- "It's not my"...
Q: Now, she returned that bracelet, didn't she?
A: Yes.
Q: And didn't she tell you that she wasn't -- she could not be bought by Mr. Simpson?
A: No, she didn't say that. She said you know, "I cannot" -- she said, "I'm trying to" -- she felt funny with that bracelet, and I guess at the time she said, you know, "I don't know what O.J.'s trying to do, if he's trying to buy me." I mean...
Q: That's what I'm asking you about. What did she say in that regard?
A: That's as far as I can remember.
Q: That O.J. was trying to buy her.
A: Yes.
Q: And she could not be bought. That's what she told you. Right?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. And did she tell you what Mr. Simpson's reaction was when she returned the bracelet?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You don't remember?
A: No. I don't think we even talked about it.
Q: About her returning the bracelet?
A: Well, she did say she returned the bracelet because she felt funny about it. Because you have to understand, she was already -- she was going out with this guy, and she said, you know, "I feel funny with this bracelet. It's so expensive. It's not me. Where am I going to use this?"
Q: After she returned the bracelet, did she ever tell you whether O.J. Simpson became angry toward her in the last few weeks of her life?
A: Angry?
Q: Yes.
A: Oh, God, I don't remember now. I don't remember now.
Q: You have no recollection at all?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: He became angry because of what happened between Faye and Nicole.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What happened?
A: Well, Nicole called me and said, "Oh, I'm not going to talk to O.J. again because O.J.'s trying to get all my friends." And she was upset that Faye was invited to this sports spectacular that -- this thing in July --
Q: July 4. Right?
A: Right. And... I'm trying to remember.
Q: Take your time.
A: So she called O.J. and said, "Why are you taking my friends?"
And then O.J. got upset apparently and said, you know, "I'm not" -- "I didn't invite Faye. I invited" -- "I invited Christian, but Faye volunteered," and stuff like that. He says, you know, "Apparently"...
Q: And that's the only thing that Nicole told you O.J. and she were fighting about in the last couple of weeks?
A: Yes. She had this fear of losing Faye. She didn't want to lose Faye because, you know, she lost all her friends, and now just because they're splitting up, now all of a sudden, you know, "O.J.'s trying to take my friends away from me."
MR. BAKER: Objection to the term "fighting."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What did you say in response to that?
A: I don't remember. I mean...
Q: You don't remember?
MR. KRAMER: Could we go off the record for just a moment, please? Is that all right?
MR. PETROCELLI: Take it --
MR. KELLY: Makc sure we're off.
MR. KRAMER: Off the record.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:21.
(Discussion held off the record.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 2:22.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, isn't it true that O.J. and Nicole had a big argument about this subject of --
MR. BAKER: Objection.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: -- her friends being invited by O.J.? Right?
MR. BAKER: Objection to the term "big" and "argument."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: They had a big fight and argument about this topic. Correct? Nicole related this to you. Right?
A: Exactly, right.
Q: And isn't it true Nicole told you she called O.J. and said. "How dare you buy everything.
You took my friends away, took my family away," all the things important in her life? Isn't it true that Nicole told you that?
A: She said that, yes.
Q: Okay. And isn't it true that she told you that she told O.J., "You can't buy me with this bracelet"? Isn't that true also?
A: She told me that, yes.
Q: And isn't it also true that O.J. called you and said, "What's going on here? I left her in April. In Cabo we were like lovers. We were planning to be together. She was planning to move in. You know, we had the best sex, you know. She was going to follow me to Florida, and then she was going to go to Florida because there was a wedding there. She was going to go to Florida and she was going to go to Puerto Rico with me and all of a sudden, what happened? What happened?"
Didn't O.J. say that to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you also know that O.J. and Nicole fought about things other than Nicole's friends in those last weeks. Right?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Objection to the term "fought."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What else did they fight about?
A: What else did they fight about?
MR. KRAMER: That's the question. Do you have the question in mind? What else did they fight about? There was an objection there, but that's the question.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, there was an issue about Nicole being upset that O.J. was going to get her thrown out of the house on the streets with the children. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Yes, she told me that, yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And she told you that she was very upset with O.J. because he was threatening to have the IRS take action against her. Right?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Yes, she got a letter from O.J. about the house, you know, the...
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And she was extremely upset about that, wasn't she?
A: Yes.
Q: And she told you that she viewed that as a threat to her security and the security of her children. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So it's fair to say that in the last days of Nicole's life, you knew that she was extremely upset with O.J. Simpson.
MR. BAKER: Speculation and leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Correct?
A: She was upset, yes.
Q: And she was seeing a therapist or counselor at that time over this, was she not?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: She told you that she was seeing somebody because of how upset she was over what was happening with Mr. Simpson. Correct?
A: She was seeing -- they were seeing a therapist? I don't know.
Q: Did she tell you that she was seeing a therapist during this period of time, in the last month or so of her life?
A: No, I don't remember. I don't think she was. I don't remember.
Q: She never told you about that?
A: She was seeing Mr. Michaels, Barry Michaels.
Q: Barry Michaels?
A: Yes, she saw Barry Michaels a couple times.
Q: Near the end?
A: I don't know if it was near the end. Probably, yeah.
Q: Have you seen Barry Michaels?
A: Yeah, I saw Mr. Michaels, too.
Q: On your own?
A: Yes. No. With Ron Fischman.
Q: Did you refer Nicole to Barry Michaels?
A: No. They referred -- Nicole referred Barry Michaels to us.
Q: Okay. And where is Mr. Michaels' office?
A: I don't remember.
Q: What city is it in?
A: Los Angeles.
Q: Beverly Hills? What street is it on?
MR. KRAMER: You're nodding your head. Is that --
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't remember.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What street is it on?
A: What street?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't remember. I don't remember.
Q: Nicole told you she was seeing Barry Michaels. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now, Nicole also told you in the last few weeks of her life that she had a fear of Mr. Simpson. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: She -- yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, did you tell her to -- did you give her any advice with respect to her statements to you that she was afraid of Mr. Simpson?
A: Did I give her advice?
Q: Yeah. As a friend.
A: At that time I -- I just told her just to be careful, you know. As long as she's happy, as long as, you know, she doesn't get into trouble.
Q: Did you tell her to call the battered women's shelter?
A: No.
Q: Sojourn?
A: No.
Q: Did you know that she did so?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you that?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Now, you also knew that based on what Nicole told you, that O.J. was following her around during these last weeks of her life. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Leading. Vague.
THE WlTNESS: She mentioned to me when we were at Starbucks, she says, "You know, Cora, I think O.J.'s following us again."
I said, "What do you mean?"
"I saw this Bentley."
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And what did you say?
A: I said, "Oh, really?" That was it.
Q: Excuse me?
A: I said, "Oh, really?"
Q: You discussed this with Barbara Walters, didn't you?
A: I mentioned it to him, yes. Yes, to her, yes.
Q: In fact, Barbara Walters said to you: "Cora, there have been rumors that
O.J. was stalking Nicole, spying on her.
"Cora Fischman: Yes.
"Barbara Walters: Do you know anything about this?
"Cora Fischman: He did follow us. But he said it was just coincidence, you know, that it just so happened that he was there at a place where we were."
A: Okay, that happened when they just got separated. There were two incidents: One was at the Tryst, okay, it was an opening night of this restaurant on La Cienega, and one was Mezzaluna in Beverly Hills.
Q: And the latter one was in the weeks before Nicole's death. Right?
A: What do you mean, "the latter one"? No, those two --
Q: The Mezzaluna incident.
A: No. The Mezzaluna in Beverly Hills, I remember we went on a Tuesday, and that was -- we walked in there. I was in the bathroom, and then O.J. was there with a friend, and that was -- at that time Nicole wanted to go there because that was the place to go on a Tuesday.
Q: What year was this?
A: 1992.
Q: When you told Barbara Fischman that O.J. Simpson was following you and Nicole --
MR. KRAMER: Is this about Barbara Walters?
MR. PETROCELLI: Excuse me.
Q: When you told Barbara Walters that O.J. Simpson was following you and Nicole, when was he following you and Nicole?
A: That was in 1992.
Q: You were telling Barbara Walters about incidents that occurred in 1992. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And not in 1994?
A: No.
Q: But you knew that O.J. was following Nicole in 1994 because she told you.
A: Exactly.
Q: Okay. And you knew that O.J. had done this in the past, right, based on your own personal experiences?
A: Right, about what Nicole told me, yes.
Q: Now, what following of Nicole did she -- what following of Nicole by O.J. did she report to you in the last few weeks of her life?
A: That was it.
Q: Relate it to me again. What did she tell you?
A: She told me, "O.J.'s following me." You know what? She said, "O.J. followed me. I think O.J.'s car was behind me." That was it. "I think he's following me."
I said "Oh, really?" I said, "Oh, okay."
Q: Did you do anything about that when she told you?
A: No.
Q: Now, and it's true that you told Barbara Walters that Nicole was very fearful of O.J. Correct?
A: Very fearful?
Q: Yes. Those are your words. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Correct? Now, in fact Nicole told you, "Oh, I'm so scared of O.J. I'm so scared of O.J.," didn't she?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Correct?
A: "I'm so scared of O.J."?
Q: "I'm so scared of O.J." Those are the words of Nicole that she told you. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you had known about O.J. beating Nicole in their marriage. Right?
MR. BAKER: Objecton to the term "beating."
THE WITNESS: She told me the 1989 incident. That was it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: She told you that O.J. beat her then. Right?
A: That 1989, yes.
Q: Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And when did she tell you that O.J. beat her in 1989?
A: I don't know. During one of our runs she told me she felt funny about it.
Q: Now, in fact during one of your runs you told her that -- or you showed her that you had some black-and-blue marks, didn't you?
A: I had?
Q: On your body, yeah.
A: I had black-and-blue marks?
Q: Yeah, you told her you had some bruises. And she said, "That's nothing. You should see what's happened to me."
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Yes, she told me that, yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Referring to the beatings that she had received at the hands of Mr. Simpson. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Objection. She said the 1989 incident.
THE WITNESS: She didn't --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Don't be led by what the lawyers are trying to coach you to say.
A: No, she didn't tell me that, though. She said -- she didn't say that to me, that she said, "O.J. did this to me," but she said, you know, "You should see" -- she said, "That's nothing."
Q: What's nothing?
A: She said, "You should see, that's nothing compared to what I had."
Q: Meaning as a result of being beat.
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: That's how you understood it. Correct?
A: Exactly, yes.
Q: Meaning that the beating injuries that she received were worse than the bruises that you were showing her. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: Correct, yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In fact she said your bruises were nothing compared to hers. Correct? Those were her words. Right?
A: She -- yeah, she said that, yes.
Q: Now, Nicole told you during your many, many talks together that she could not stop O.J.'s womanizing. True?
A: I don't remember. Did I say that?
MR. BAKER: You want to show her the transcript?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: "Barbara Walters: What did you talk about on those 10-mile runs?
"Cora Fischman: Well, you know, when you run 10 miles it's kind of hard to talk because you're huffing and puffing. We talked about our lives. She always was talking about how she always had wanted to be, how O.J. could just change -- how O.J. could just stop womanizing.
"Barbara Walters: She knew of the rumors that O.J. had other women when they were married?
"Cora Fischman: Yes, she knew that." That's true, what you told Barbara Walters?
A: Yes.
Q: What did Nicole tell you about O.J.'s womanizing and how she couldn't stop it?
A: How she could stop it?
Q: How she couldn't stop it.
A: She couldn't stop it? I don't remember.
Q: You don't remember? You're covering your mouth up also with your hands.
A: I'm blanking out here, so --
Q: Well, we want your best testimony.
A: Yeah.
MR. BAKER: Would you like to take a break, Ma'am.?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah, let's take a short break --
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm blanking out here.
MR. PETROCELLI: -- and get a cup of coffee.
THE VIDE0GRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 2. The time is approximately 2:36, and we are off the record.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 2:57. This is the beginning of tape No. 3.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Before Nicole died, she told you that she was no longer seeing this Brett guy that she met in Cabo. Correct?
A: She was no longer seeing? I don't remember. I don't remember.
Q: You have to speak up.
A: I don't remember, so...
Q: You told the detectives that she wasn't seeing anyone at the time of her death. Is that right?
A: Yeah.
Q: So she wasn't seeing this Brett fellow anymore. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Is that correct? That's what she told you, that she had stopped seeing this fellow?
A: Well, you know, she was still seeing Marcus Allen.
Q: You looked at Mr. Simpson when you said that. Are you concerned about his --
A: Well, because he wrote it down, too, and I felt bad because they were friends, so --
Q: You felt bad that --
A: Marcus and O.J. were friends.
Q: -- that Marcus and O.J. were friends, and just shortly before Nicole's death that Nicole was seeing Marcus Allen. Right?
A: Well, I don't know before the death, but they were still talking.
Q: In May and June of 1994. Correct?
A: I would say correct, yes.
Q: And Nicole told you that. Right? Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you saw Marcus at Nicole's condo at Bundy. Correct?
A: No.
Q: You saw his car there. Right?
A: No.
Q: What did Nicole tell you about her seeing Marcus Allen in the May and June of '94 time frame? Tell me what she related to you, as best you can recall.
A: There was one day where after Nicole and I had coffee I said, "What happened?"
She said, "Well, I just saw Brett," and then that same day she saw Marcus Allen.
Q: Did she call you after that day to tell you that she had seen Marcus or -- I'm a little confused.
A: No. In the afternoon. We saw each other in the afternoon.
Q: And she told you in that same day she had seen both Brett and Marcus?
A: Yes.
Q: Together or separately?
A: Separately.
Q: And what did she say about seeing Brett?
That she had had sex with him?
A: Well, she didn't go -- she just said that words, "I saw Brett today."
Q: Where? At her --
A: At her apartment, at her condo.
Q: And where did she say she had seen Marcus Allen?
A: I assumed that same place.
Q: And when was this day when she told you that she had seen both Brett and Marcus Allen on the same day?
A: When?
Q: Yeah. And maybe you can think about this in reference to her birthday and her bout with pneumonia. Was it before or after?
A: I'm trying to -- it could be before her pneumonia.
Q: Was this the first time in a while that she had told you about Marcus Allen, about seeing Marcus Allen again?
A: If -- I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question?
Q: When she told you that she had seen Marcus Allen on this occasion when you had coffee together --
A: Yes.
Q: -- where was this? In Starbucks?
A: Yes.
Q: Was this the first time in a while that she had mentioned Marcus Allen to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. So to your knowledge she hadn't been seeing Marcus Allen for a long time before this conversation. Is that right?
A: Right.
Q: And this conversation was the first time that you found out that she was seeing Marcus Allen again.
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you say when she told you that?
A: I said -- I don't remember. I was -- just smiled. I said, you know, "Why? O.J.'s out of town again?" You know, so that was it. I mean...
Q: Meaning that she would not feel secure about seeing Marcus Allen while O.J. was in town?
A: Well, no. Marcus calls Nicole when O.J. is out of town.
Q: Marcus to your knowledge would seize the opportunity of O.J. being out of town --
MR. BAKER: Speculation --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: -- to call Nicole and see her. Is that what you're saying?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: That's what she told me, but --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: That Marcus liked to call her when Marcus knew or believed that O.J. was out of town.
MR. BAKER: Leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Correct?
A: Marcus [sic] was out of town. Correct.
Q: And Nicole told you how upset O.J. would be if he were to find out that Marcus was seeing Nicole.
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: At that time Nicole didn't say that, no.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: But you knew from prior conversations that it was a source of great anger on O.J. Simpson's part. Correct?
A: That's what she told me, yes.
Q: And you knew that O.J. Simpson and Marcus Allen were very close friends. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And you knew that Marcus Allen had seen Nicole romantically the year before, before he was married to Katherine. Right?
A: Right, yes.
Q: And you knew that when Mr. Simpson found out about that, how upset he was. Right?
MR. BAKER: Speculation. Leading.
THE WITNESS: He was upset because he was shocked. He said, "What more surprises are you going to give me?" So...
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And you knew that O.J. Simpson was a very jealous guy. Right?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Nicole told me, yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And Nicole told you that O.J. Simpson was a very jealous guy. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And very obsessive. Right?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Nicole told you that O.J. was very obsessive. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, did you tell Nicole, when she told you in May of 1994 that she was seeing Marcus Allen again, to be careful and look out for her physical safety?
A: Did I?
Q: Yeah. Did you warn her?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did she talk to you again before she died about Marcus Ahen?
A: No.
Q: That was the only time?
A: Yeah.
Q: You never brought it up?
A: No.
Q: And did you talk to anyone else about Nicole seeing Marcus Allen?
A: No.
Q: Did you mention it to Mr. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever told him about this conversation?
A: I mentioned to him, yes.
Q: When?
A: When the book came out.
Q: What book?
A: Faye Resnick's book came out, yeah. And he asked me, "Is this true?" I said, "Yes," you know, and he didn't know that it happened after their reconciliation.
Q: Mr. Simpson did not know about the relationship between Nicole and Marcus in May of '94, according to what he told you?
A: No.
Q: That's what he told you: He didn't know. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You don't know one way or the other whether he knew at the time. Right?
A: At that time, if I knew?
Q: You don't know whether or not he knew at that time. Right?
A: Yes, I don't know.
Q: You never talked to him about it then. Right?
A: No.
Q: Now, you testified previously about having a conversation with Mr. Simpson when he was -- you took the walk, and he was discussing how Nicole would not make a commitment to him, and you suggested that they go off to Florida.
Do you recall that?
A: Move to Florida.
Q: And then there was other testimony that you gave a little while ago about Mr. Simpson expressing disbelief in why Nicole was doing this to him, that they had had a good time in Cabo, and he didn't understand what was going on.
Do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, that conversation about his confusion over what was going on with Nicole, when did that occur?
A: That was when we were sitting in the -- in his office that day that I wanted to talk to him.
Q: That all occurred in the same time?
A: Right. That conversation, yes.
Q: I read to you statements that you had made on tape where you said O.J. said:
"What's going on here? I left her in April in Cabo. We were like lovers. We were planning to be together. She was going to move in. We had the best sex. She was going to following me to Florida because there was a wedding there and she was going to Puerto Rico with me and all of a sudden, what happened? What happened?"
A: I must have said that, yes.
Q: That's what O.J. Simpson said to you in his office?
A: No, no, no.
Q: When did he say this to you?
A: I think that was one of a telephone conversation we had. Yeah, one of the telephone conversation.
Q: And he called you from his home?
A: I don't know, but he called me.
Q: You were at your house --
A: Yes.
Q: -- at 200 North Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And what did you tell him when he said these things to you?
A: I said, you know, "Just give her some time," you know. "She really ultimately wants to move back, and she's just confused right now." I even told him, I said, "You're the one who even told her that she's going through a phase in her life where, you know, in the thirties she's going to go through this difficult time."
And even Nicole told me how O.J. is understanding. You know, "At least he understands what I'm going through." And she even told me, you know, "You know, Cora, it's really not O.J. It's not Ron. It's us," you know.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let me read that back. One second.
Q: "It's," you know, "...Ron." Who's Ron?
A: Ron Fischman.
Q: What does Ron Fischman have to do with this conversation you're having with O.J. Simpson about why Nicole has left him?
A: Why Nicole has left him?
Q: Yes.
A: Well, we always talked about how we need to do something for ourselves, you know. You know, "We're married to wealthy men, and we needed -- we need to do something for ourself," you know, I told Nicole.
"We cannot just run all the time. And it's not Ron. It's not O.J. It's us," you know. That's what Nicole said.
She says, you know, "Cora, we're the ones screwed up, not O.J., not Ron. It's us. 99 percent of women would love to have what we have." That's what she told me.
Q: And you were relating to O.J. Simpson what Nicole and you had said?
A: Yes, exactly.
Q: Trying to make him feel better, that it was not him that was the problem, but it was that Nicole was going --
A: Right.
Q: -- through this phase of her life?
A: Exactly.
Q: And that he, O.J., had to be patient and understanding before he could get her back?
A: I didn't say it that way, but --
Q: But that was the sense of what you were saying to him?
A: Pretty much, yes.
Q: And what was his reaction to that?
A: Nothing. I mean...
Q: So that's a telephone conversation. Right? That's what you said. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And can you remember anything else Mr. Simpson said to you in that telephone conversation?
A: I don't remember any more.
Q: You're covering your mouth up.
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Did you tell Nicole that Mr. Simpson had said these things to you on the telephone?
A: Did I tell Nicole?
Q: Yeah.
A: I must have.
Q: Why do you say that?
A: Because Nicole was the one who told me about this.
Q: You were reporting a conversation that you had with O.J. Simpson.
A: Yeah.
Q: And what I am asking you is whether you told Nicole about your conversation with O.J. Simpson.
A: I usually don't tell Nicole about my conversation with O.J.
Q: Okay. And the next conversation you had with O.J. Simpson was when you had the talk in his office?
A: The next?
Q: After this telephone call?
A: No, no, no, no, no. No.
Q: What do you mean, "No"?
A: He just got back from a trip, and I saw him picking up the kids. So that's when --
Q: What I am trying to find out is: You've now told me about two conversations: One telephone call, which we just discussed what was said, and then another conversation in which you met him at the school and went off to the office.
A: You know what? It could be that conversation was probably just in the office then. I don't remember, you know, between telephone conversation and discussion in the office.
Q: You don't recall if there were two conversations or one?
A: I don't. Probably I just had one, and that was all the conversation I had.
Q: Why are you saying probably you only had one?
A: Because I don't remember. It's been a while, and I had discussion with both of them for a long time. This is -- you know, I'm trying to rehash my memory here.
Q: Okay. So you can't recall if there was two or one.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you speak to Mr. Simpson after he gave Nicole the bracelet?
A: Did I speak to him? I don't remember.
Q: Now, you know that there was an argument between Nicole and O.J. when she returned the bracelet to him?
MR. BAKER: Objection. Speculation.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, Nicole told me.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And what did she tell you about that?
A: That she told me that O.J. was upset.
Q: About what?
A: About her returning the bracelet.
Q: And what did O.J. -- what did Nicole tell you that O.J. said?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I don't remember.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Isn't it true that Nicole told you at that time she didn't want to have anything more to do with Mr. Simpson?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: She was very mad at him. She was very mad at him, yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And she told you that she was very mad at him. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And that she didn't want to have anything more to do with him. Right?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. And do you know what made her feel that way?
A: What made her feel that way?
Q: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: Because she felt that O.J. was taking her friends away from her, one; and two was because of that letter that O.J. wrote to her about the IRS.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you try to talk Nicole into taking O.J. back?
A: Did I try to tell Nicole?
Q: Yeah, during this period of time.
A: No, not reaUy.
Q: Did you come to believe that --
A: Well, you know what? I tried to because -- at that time when I did the Florida, but, see -- that Florida -- when I told O.J., "Why don't you go move to Florida, and that would be your last chance of, you know, getting back together as a family."
Q: Yes. So you tried that way --
A: Right.
Q: -- with O.J., but you didn't try with Nicole. Right?
A: Later on I did tell Nicole, "Why don't you move to Florida," you know.
Q: And what did she say?
A: She said, "I have my friends here."
Q: Meaning you?
A: Meaning me, meaning Faye, you know. She says she has friends here now. She didn't want to leave her friends.
Q: Now, you told the officers that when Nicole gave -- excuse me -- when O.J. Simpson gave Nicole the expensive bracelet, quote, "To him this was his last chance to get back with Nicole," end of quotes.
Would you like --
A: This was what Nicole told -- what did you say?
Q: Yeah. I am referring to your statement to -- your first police statement on 6-14. It says right here: "Nicole gave O.J. the bracelet back. This made O.J. angry. To him this was his last chance to get back with Nicole."
Do you see that? Okay?
A: Yeah.
Q: How did you know that?
A: That was just my assumption.
Q: Who told you that?
A: I thought at that time that was O.J.'s way of trying to reconcile and try and get Nicole back.
Q: I see. Did you talk to O.J. about that?
A: No.
Q: When you spoke to O.J. about Nicole ending the relationship with him, what was his mood?
A: When Nicole --
Q: Yeah. When you spoke to O.J. in his office or on the telephone about Nicole ending the relationship with him, what was his mood?
A: He was -- he was not -- they were not ending it. It's just that he was angry and upset because he didn't understand what was going on with Nicole.
Q: What did he not understand?
A: You know, the back and forth, back and forth, you know, "I want to go back" and then "I don't want to go back."
Q: Nicole was initiating this back and forth --
A: Exactly.
Q: -- like a yo-yo. Right?
A: Exactly.
Q: It wasn't Mr. Simpson that was doing it. Right?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Mr. Simpson didn't tell you that he dumped Nicole on Mother's Day, did he?
A: He didn't.
Q: He didn't tell you that. Right?
A: I didn't know that.
Q: Huh?
A: I didn't know that.
Q: I am not asking you if you know that from any source. I am asking you whether he told you that.
A: He didn't tell me that.
Q: And he didn't tell you that he dumped her the day after Mother's Day, did he?
A: He didn't tell me that.
Q: And he didn't tell you that it was he who decided to tell Nicole that he was ending the relationship once and for all. Correct? He didn't tell you that. Correct?
A: No. See, I --
Q: When he was complaining --
A: -- never spoke to him.
Q: What he was complaining --
MR. BAKER: Let her answer.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What he was complaining to you about was that Nicole kept going back and forth with him, and he didn't understand that and he was confused and it was making him upset. Correct?
A: He was confused, yes, uh-huh.
Q: Okay. And he wanted to have a relationship with Nicole. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
And why don't we let her answer.
THE WITNESS: He was trying to see what -- if they could still get back together.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yeah. That's what he told you. Right?
A: But both of them wanted the relationship to work.
Q: O.J. Simpson told you he wanted the relationship with Nicole to work when he talked to you in his office. Right?
A: No. At the time he really was -- he says, you know, "Either we work it out or we don't work it out, but I" -- you know, he said, "I have another life here, Cora. I can't go on like this. Either" --
Q: Can't go on like what?
MR. BAKER: You stopped her again.
THE WITNESS: The back and forth, the back and forth situation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you think that was unfair, what Nicole was doing to him?
A: At that time Nicole even felt it that way, you know. She told me, "I guess I should just leave O.J. alone."
Q: Did you tell that to O.J. Simpson, that Nicole had said that?
A: Well, I told O.J. before, "Just give her some time. Give her some time. She's going through a phase in her life." I reassured him many times that "She loves you, and at some point in her time she wants to go back to you."
Q: And what would he say in response to that?
A: He said, you know, "Cora, I feel like a battered husband here. I don't know.
I mean, I want to have my own life with Paula, and then here comes" -- "she wants to come back" -- you know, like, "I want to have my own life, and then when she sees that I have my own life, she comes back." He says, "What does she want? Tell me what she wants."
Q: And what did you tell him?
A: I told him, I said, "Give her some time. Give her some time."
Q: And what did he say?
A: He says, "I don't know what to do. What do we do here?" As he said, "I'm in the back nine. You're in the front nine." You know, "I'm 47 years old."
Q: Did Mr. Simpson tell you that he was concerned about his age relative to Nicole's age?
A: No. I think it was more so Nicole was concerned with her age because, as I told you before, she was worried about getting old, aging.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson tell you that Nicole had told him, you know, "I'm going to be" -- "you're gonna be an old man and not" --
A: Yeah, "You're gonna be an old man and you're still going to be able to find a 20-year-old. I'll be 50; nobody's gonna look at us," you know.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson tell you that he felt like a battered husband?
A: Yeah, he told me that. That was at the conversation in the office. In fact, even Nicole said, "God, gee," you know, "they feel they're battered husbands here," you know, so...
Q: What was your reaction to his statement to you that he was a battered husband?
A: At the time Nicole and I were thinking -- see, I guess what battered to me meant was emotionally, the back and forth. That's all. You know, Nicole bringing tapes and bringing muffins to O.J. and then, you know, "I want my family back," and then, "I don't want my family back. I still want to have the year off." I mean --
MR. KELLY: Miss Fischman, I can't hear you.
THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did Mr. -- do you know why Mr. Simpson -- Withdrawn.
Is that conversation with him in the office the last one you had with him?
A: As far as I can recall, yes. Yes.
Q: You said you saw him at the recital?
A: Yes.
Q: What did he say to you at the recital?
A: We didn't talk much. I actually -- when he -- he came, he kissed everybody, you know, Judy and Denise, you know, and then he sat back and I asked him, "You look tired," and he said that he's been all over. He was in New York, and he's gonna go to Chicago. He's gonna take a red eye to Chicago.
Q: He told you all that at the time --
A: Yeah, he said he's just tired, you know.
Q: Did he have a tired expression on his face?
A: Yes, he did look tired.
Q: And he told you that he was going to be going to Chicago that night. Right?
A: Yeah, he says, "I'm going to go take a red eye to Chicago."
Q: And he made a point of telling you that. Right?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WlTNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. He said "red eye"?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did he sit?
A: What?
Q: Where did he sit?
A: Where -- behind me -- not behind me, but -- I would say the row behind me.
Q: Where did he sit relative to Nicole?
A: They were about four seats, three seats away from each other, because the kids were -- there were a lot of kids, too, in and out of that. We were trying to give room for the kids, too, so... They were four seats apart.
Q: Did they speak to one another?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you see them at all times, so that if they did speak, you would have known?
A: No, because I was behind them.
Q: Okay. What about during intermission or after the recital was over? Did you -- were you with one or the other of them the whole time?
A: No, I didn't see them. I didn't see them talk.
Q: Okay. So you don't know one way or the other whether they spoke to one another or had words. Correct?
A: Right. Correct.
Q: Did you talk to Nicole that evening?
A: No.
Q: Were you upset with her?
A: No, I was not upset with her.
Q: Why didn't you speak to her?
A: Well, because at the time we were busy. She was -- she went to Mezzaluna; I went to Toscana, and then I figured the following day we were going to run together.
See, we don't normally talk like that. We just automatically we call each other the following morning, and then that's when we talk.
Q: Now, you had had a fight with Nicole the night before in fact --
A: We didn't have a fight.
Q: -- correct?
A: We didn't have a fight.
Q: You had an argument on the phone the night before and in the morning of the 12th as well. Correct?
A: No, I didn't talk to Nicole.
Q: You had no conversation with her on the morning of the 12th?
A: No.
Q: You found out that your husband Ron had a conversation with Nicole on Saturday night, June 11. Right?
A: Exactly, yes.
Q: And Ron was looking for you. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And you were out with a young man named Terrence?
A: Yes.
Q: Or Torrance?
A: Terrence.
Q: Terrance, with whom you were having an affair at that time. Right?
A: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Irrelevant.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And you had asked Nicole to cover for you in the event that your husband had called. Right?
MR. BAKER: This is irrelevant and invades the privacy interests of this witness.
MR. PETROCELLI: Do you represent the witness?
MR. BAKER: I am just putting my objection on the record, Mr. Petrocelli.
MR. PETROCELLI: I know you would like to silence the witness, and I know you would like to hide this information --
MR. BAKER: I don't think so.
MR. PETROCELLI: -- but the witness is ably represented by counsel.
MR. BAKER: Do you want to mark that so Geraldo can find it easier?
MR. PETROCELLI: In fact, I think Geraldo's on real time, Mr. Baker, so it's probably already on the air.
MR. BAKER: Perfect.
THE WITNESS: It's coming out.
MR. PETROCELLI: It's coming out.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI: You guys are obsessed with Geraldo.
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q. And you had asked Nicole to cover for you in the event that your husband had called. Right?")
THE WITNESS: To cover?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes, to say that -- where you were.
A: Yes.
Q: But not to tell Ron that you were with Terrence. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And Nicole and Ron had an argument about this because Nicole got frustrated that you were not at home with your children.
A: I didn't know that.
Q: But you found that out later. Right?
A: Through Cici, yes. Yesterday.
Q: You found that out yesterday?
A: Well, no. From -- I know where the sources came. From Cici, yes.
Q: What do you mean? When did you find this out?
A: Found this out from Cici.
Q: You spoke to Cici yesterday?
A: No, no. I don't talk to her anymore.
Q: What did you say about yesterday? I misunderstood you.
A: Well, it was in the newspaper yesterday.
Q: I see.
A: About the testimony.
Q: Okay. When did you find out that Ron and Nicole had had a phone call on the evening of June 11 about your whereabouts?
A: My sister-in-law told me.
Q: Who is your sister-in-law?
A: My sister-in-law [Name Deleted].
Q: And what is [Name Deleted]'s last name?
A: Harraka. I mean [Name Deleted], my maiden name. [Name Deleted].
Q: [Name Deleted] is married to your brother?
A: Exactly.
Q: And [Name Deleted] lives where?
A: In New Jersey.
Q: What city?
A: Clifton.
Q: Okay. How did [Name Deleted] come to find this out?
A: Because Ron called [Name Deleted] and told [Name Deleted] that she spoke to -- that
she spoke to Ron. Ron was upset.
Q: When did Ron call [Name Deleted]?
A: Must be that evening, too. I don't know.
Q: On June 11?
A: Must be, yes.
Q: And told [Name Deleted], your sister-in-law, that --
A: "Where is she?"
Q: "Where is Cora?"
A: Exactly.
Q: And when he called [Name Deleted], where was [Name Deleted] at that time?
A: [Name Deleted] was at her house.
Q: In Clifton, New Jersey?
A: Clifton, New Jersey.
Q: And Ron called Clifton, New Jersey, looking for you?
A: Asking where I was.
Q: Okay. You want to pass a note to -- at the behest of your client, Mr. Simpson?
MR. BAKER: Excuse me? Are you speaking to me?
MR. PETROCELLI: Are you passing a note to Mr. -- Miss Fischman's lawyer?
MR. BAKER: No. You are very paranoid today, Dan.
MR. PETROCELLI: You're making me paranoid.
THE WITNESS: I just want to know what's the relevance of this with Nicole and O.J.'s --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: It's extremely relevant.
A: Why? It has nothing --
Q: It has to go with bias against Nicole, other among other things.
A: No, but there was nothing -- you know, my personal life has nothing to do with what happened to Nicole.
MR. BAKER: That's exactly right. This is entirely irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: I don't think it's fair for you to even know my personal life.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: We will let the court decide that.
A: My marital problem had nothing to do with their -- whatever happened to them.
Q: Obviously it did when your husband --
A: But I just want to put it on record.
Q: -- when your husband and Nicole are having a conversation about your whereabouts within hours of her murder.
A: Exactly.
Q: Okay. So I am entitled to probe, and I intend to, and I intend to ask your husband about all this as well.
MR. BAKER: Beyond the scope of anything relevant.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You found out from [Name Deleted] when about Ron Fischman's telephone call with Nicole?
A: Well, the same week. I talk to my sister-in-law every day.
Q: Did you find out the next morning before Nicole's death?
A: No.
Q: Did you know as of the time of the recital that Ron had spoken to Nicole?
A: By the time of the recital --
Q: Right.
A: -- that Ron had spoken to Nicole. I didn't know. I don't know. I didn't know.
Q: Did Ron tell you?
A: Ron and I were not talking.
Q: Did you see Ron before the recital?
A: Yes, because we went to take the kids to the recital. We even all went out to dinner to Toscana.
Q: Okay. And you went with your children --
A: Yes.
Q: -- and with Ron. And with anyone else?
A: That's it.
Q: And before the recital -- Well, withdrawn. At the recital -- at the dinner -- excuse me -- with Ron, did he tell you about his phone call with Nicole?
A: At the recital?
Q: At the dinner.
A: At the dinner?
Q: After the recital.
A: Did Ron --
Q: Tell you that he had spoken to Nicole --
A: No.
Q: -- the night before?
A: No, we didn't talk about that.
Q: Okay. So prior to Nicole's death, you had no knowledge whatsoever that Nicole and Ron had spoken.
A: Exactly.
Q: Okay. And you did not talk to Nicole at any time the next morning, on the 12th, correct, after your evening with Terrence?
MR. KRAMER: You're talking about Sunday morning. Right?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
Q: Is that what you're saying?
A: Yeah, I went to Terrence's house because I was afraid of Ron because Ron was mad, and I didn't want to go home. That's why.
Q: So you spent the evening of June 11 --
MR. BAKER: This is irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: This is not to have an affair is what you're saying. To me, I went there because I was afraid of my husband.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. So you spent the evening at the home of Terrence on June 11. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you return to your home the next day, Sunday?
A: Yes.
Q: What time?
A: I don't know. I don't remember.
Q: Before noon?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And when you got home, did you and your husband have any discussion or conversation?
A: No. We were not talking anymore.
Q: Not at all?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And when you got to the recital, did you guys drive together in the same car?
MR. BAKER: This is irrelevant and could very --
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
MR. BAKER: -- well be violative of the spousal privilege.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You may answer. Did you drive together?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. And when you were at the recital, did you speak to your husband at all?
A: Yeah, we spoke. I even told him to take the pictures of Sydney and O.J.
Q: Why did you tell him to do that?
A: Well, because, you know, I thought it would be nice to have a father and son picture because Nicole -- Sydney looked so cute in that.
Q: Because Nicole wasn't talking to O.J., and you knew that Nicole wasn't going to take that picture.
A: No, you're putting words in my mouth. No, I --
Q: True?
A: No.
Q: You knew that Nicole was extremely upset with Mr. Simpson on the evening of that recital. Right?
MR. BAKER: Badgering and leading.
THE WITNESS: I didn't know that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You knew that if you didn't see that that picture was taken, it never would have been taken by anyone else. True?
MR. BAKER: Same.
THE WITNESS: Well, I asked Ron to take the picture.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And at no time did you ask Nicole to take the picture. Right?
A: Because Nicole at that time wasn't even there. She was running around. She had her own camera. I don't know where she was. She was back and forth. You know, the recital, we were back and forth, in the backstage, you know, back -- I mean, there were a lot of kids.
Q: You didn't talk to Nicole at all. Right?
A: We said hello. I mean, I noticed the dress.
Q: You didn't talk to her other than say hello?
A: We said hello. We were standing in line. Just "Hi." "Hi." Nicole and I don't talk that often. We always talk when we run. I mean, it's not like -- you know, we see each other most of the time, so...
Q: So it's your testimony that --
A: It's like we see each other every day --
Q: -- there was no conflict or tension between the two of you that evening?
A: No.
Q: None at all.
A: We were like sisters, yeah. I mean, we probably had a little disagreement, but, you know, we just don't --
Q: Did you have a disagreement?
A: No, we didn't have a -- I said we probably -- sometimes we have a disagreement, but we leave each other alone, you know. We don't fight or anything like that.
Q: Did you ever tell anyone that the last six weeks Nicole and you had a falling-out?
A: The last six weeks?
Q: Yes.
A: I didn't say "falling-out," but it's gotten to the point where we were -- Nicole was spending more time and time with Faye, and at the time I was seeing Terrence.
Q: And isn't it true that you said that the last two months you felt like you were not there for Nicole?
A: Yeah, I felt -- yeah, at that time I was -- I felt, you know, I should have been there for her.
Q: So your relationship with Nicole cooled in the last six weeks of her life. Correct?
A: No, I wouldn't say "cooled," because we still saw each other.
Q: Do you deny telling Michael Viner and the National Enquirer that your relationship -- that you had a falling-out in your relationship the last two months?
A: I don't think that's true. That's not -- I don't consider that falling out.
Q: So if you said that, you were lying?
A: If I was lying?
Q: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I don't think I was lying. I was confused. There was a lot of confusion at the time. I was trying to understand what was going on with Nicole. I don't think I was lying. I was confused, yes, but not lying.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You were confused when you talked to Michael Viner and the National Enquirer?
A: I was confused?
Q: Is that what you're telling us, you were confused when you talked to them?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered. Argumentative. Let me think up some other ones. Okay.
THE WITNESS: I was confused? Yeah, I would say I was confused, yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You're -- are you confused now?
MR. KRAMER: Think about that question.
THE WITNESS: If I'm confused now?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Are you confused now?
A: About what?
Q: About your testimony.
A: No, I don't consider it.
Q: Are you on any medication today?
A: No.
Q: You are under no drugs or medication that would affect your ability to testify?
A: No.
Q: Okay.
A: Say no to drugs.
Q: Or any kind of prescription medicine?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Now, one of the reasons your relationship with Nicole cooled is because you were seeing this fellow Terrence, and she was -- didn't approve of that. True?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
THE WITNESS: Well, no. See, I didn't approve of what she was doing, too. She was seeing Faye more and more, and I told her, "I don't like Faye." They were going out a lot, and I didn't like the fact that they were going to different clubs.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, how do you know how much they were going out?
A: Because she told me. She said, "Do you want to come with us? We're going to the Whiskey bar." I said, "No, I don't want to do that."
Q: What time period are we talking about?
A: Well, that's the last -- that's after Cabo, after Puerto -- you know, around that time, May.
Q: May of 1994?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. And you don't know how much they were going out, do you? You weren't with them.
A: No, I wasn't with them, but also they were -- when I would call her, I said, "Where are you going?"
And she said, "Oh, Faye and I are just going to hang out at home."
Q: And you were seeing this fellow Terrence during this time period. Right?
MR. BAKER: Irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I was seeing him. I was going out to lunch with him, yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You were having an affair with him. Right?
MR. BAKER: Irrelevant, invasion of her privacy interests.
THE WITNESS: An affair, I don't consider an affair.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: A sexual relationship with Terrence.
MR. BAKER: Completely irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: At the time --
MR. KRAMER: You have -- let me take a moment with the witness.
Actually, is this a good time to break for the evening?
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, not when we have a question pending.
Q: Answer the question.
A: Well, let's just continue. What? I mean --
Q: Answer the question.
MR. BAKER: This is totally irrelevant. I think she has testified she has current divorce proceedings. I don't know the impact of those, but it doesn't relate to this litigation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You may answer. You were having a sexual relationship with Nicole during the month of May --
A: With Nicole, no, I was not having a sexual relationship with Nicole.
Q: -- with Terrence during the month of May of 1994. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And Nicole did not approve of it, and she told you that. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And she thought that it would ruin your family. Correct?
A: No, she didn't say that. She said that, "Be careful because Ron might find out."
Q: And if --
A: And I said to her, "You have to watch out with what you're doing," because at that time she was doing this threesome and she was having a lesbian affair with Faye, and I didn't approve of that. So that was what was happening.
So Terrence became my friend and my confidante at the time. That's why I became close to Terrence.
Q: And you slept at Terrence's home on the evening of June 11. Correct?
A: That a Saturday?
MR. KRAMER: Saturday night.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: At a time when you were still having a romantic affair with him. Right?
A: I think I was at home. It could be -- I don't know. Probably, yes. Oh, yes.
Q: This is the night when your husband was calling Nicole.
A: Yes, because we attend a wedding and he's going -- you know, I was afraid of him, so I went to Terrence. I said, you know. "I don't want to go home."
Q: Now, you said that Nicole didn't approve of what you were doing, and you didn't approve of what Nicole was doing.
A: Yes.
Q: But you don't really know what Nicole was doing. You had one conversation with her --
A: Well, she told me --
Q: Excuse me. You testified that you had one conversation --
MR. BAKER: That was a very major interruption.
MR. PETROCELLI: I didn't ask her a question.
MR. BAKER: Oh, you didn't?
MR. PETROCELLI: No.
MR. BAKER: Oh.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You told me earlier that you only had one conversation with Nicole in which she mentioned this incident regarding --
A: Yes. She told me that over --
MR. KRAMER: Let him finish his question.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And she didn't tell you that this was an ongoing thing with Faye.
A: Well, at that time I assumed it was an ongoing thing because she said that she did it with Brett three times, so -- and Faye was there a lot on Bundy, so I assumed that they were doing it.
Q: That was your assumption, right, that --
A: Faye confirmed it to me.
Q: Oh, Faye told --
A: After -- when Nicole died, she confirmed it to me that, yes, she was, and she was embarrassed about the whole thing.
Q: Faye confirmed to you that she was having a romantic relationship with Nicole on multiple occasions?
A: Not on multiple occasions --
Q: More than once?
A: -- but she did say that she had an affair with Nicole.
Q: More than one incident?
A: I don't know when they -- I don't know about that.
Q: Is it your testimony that Faye told you that there was more than one incident?
MR. BAKER: Badgering, argumentative. You're killing Dave --
THE WITNESS: More than once?
MR. BAKER: -- by stepping on her answers.
MR. PETROCELLI: I certainly don't want to do that.
THE WITNESS: You know what? I wasn't there, so -- I wasn't there.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So you don't know.
MR. BAKER: Objection
THE WITNESS: I only -- I'm telling you only what Faye told me and what Nicole told me. So I don't know how many times they did. I mean, they didn't call me every time they did it, so...
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Under oath here you are testifying that you are assuming that Nicole and Faye had an ongoing lesbian relationship. Is that what you're telling us?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WlTNESS: Yes, because Faye was there almost every day.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: What days was Faye there, Miss Fischman?
A: What days?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't remember, but every time I would go upstairs -- every time I would go there when we would go out for a run, Faye was upstairs sleeping.
Q: Give me the days that she was there. Can you name them?
A: Oh, I don't remember.
Q: Give me the weeks.
A: Oh, I don't remember.
Q: So you can't tell us a single day that Faye Resnick was sleeping over at Nicole's house.
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Faye and I -- I mean Nicole and I ran at least three or four times a day, so I assume every time I was there, she was there. I mean, in fact even -- she even called us upstairs, Cici and I. She says, you know, "Go upstairs and look where Faye is."
I said, "Where is she?"
"She's sleeping. " And Nicole said, "Doesn't she look cute?" and Cici and I look at each other.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: But you don't have any knowledge about how many nights she slept over at Nicole's house. Right?
A: No.
Q: Okay.
A: Well, I know she didn't have a place because Christian threw her out of the house, so she was finding a place to...
Q: You were having a severe conflict with your husband Ron during the period of May and June of 1994. In fact, you weren't talking to each other, you said. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: Ron and I have been having problems for the last six years.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Including during that time frame. Right?
A: Including that time, yes.
Q: And you were under great stress during that time period. Right?
A: I wouldn't say "great stress."
Q: No? Not under any stress?
MR. BAKER: You're switching your question. Great stress the first time. Just stress the second time.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You may answer.
A: It wasn't great stress. I mean, you know, I was very unhappy with my husband, so...
Q: Were you taking any medication or drugs at that time?
A: No, I don't do drugs.
Q: Were you taking Xanax?
A: No.
Q: Was Nicole taking Xanax?
A: I don't know.
Q: Was Faye taking it?
A: No, I don't know.
Q: Do you know that your husband was prescribing Xanax to your friends and his friends?
A: No, that's -- I don't think so.
Q: You understand that a pill vial of Xanax was found in Mr. Simpson's luggage. Right?
A: See, I don't know that.
Q: You never heard that before?
A: No.
Q: You never heard that a Xanax prescription made out to Naomi Fischman, who was Ron's mother, correct --
A: Yeah, Naomi. yeah.
Q: -- was found in Mr. Simpson's possession when he was arrested?
A: I don't know, so...
Q: Is it your testimony that you have no knowledge of Mr. -- of your husband, Mr. Fischman, providing Xanax to your friends and his friends? Is that your testimony?
A: Well, you know --
Q: Can you answer that yes or no?
A: Could you repeat the question again?
Q: Yes. Is it your testimony that you have no knowledge that your husband, Ron Fischman, was providing Xanax to your friends and his friends?
A: Yes.
Q: You have no such knowledge?
A: Yes, I didn't know that, so...
Q: You don't?
A: No.
Q: Did you know whether Nicole had access to Xanax in her house?
A: I didn't know that, no.
Q: Do you know whether Mr. Simpson did?
A: No, I didn't know that.
Q: Have you ever seen your husband or learned about your husband giving Xanax to Nicole?
A: No, I don't know that.
Q: To Mr. Simpson?
A: I don't know that.
Q: Or to Faye Resnick?
A: I don't know that.
Q: Do you know how Xanax in the name of Naomi Fischman got in Mr. Simpson's possession?
A: I don't know what happened there. I don't know.
Q: Do you have any explanation for that?
A: I don't know. I didn't even know that.
Q: You are just finding that out today?
A: Well, you're telling me, yes.
Q: Mr. Simpson didn't tell you --
A: No.
Q: -- in your long talks together?
A: No.
MR. KRAMER: Is this a convenient spot to break?
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
MR. KELLY: Not for the day, is it? Is that what we're talking about?
MR. PETROCELLI: I thought you just meant a break.
MR. KRAMER: Oh, I thought you originally said we were going to go -- I'm an hour early. I must be on some other time.
MR. PETROCELLI: We can take a short break here, though.
MR. KRAMER: ActuaUy, I was just going to get a jump on traffic.
MR. PETROCELLI: Let's take a short break. Give the reporter a rest.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 3:46.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 4:02.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When was the last time you spoke to Nicole before she died?
A: Before she died? At the recital when we said hello.
Q: Anything else besides hello?
A: Well, the night -- this day before we talked about the rehearsal, you know, that she was going to take my kids to the rehearsal.
Q: When was that conversation?
A: That was Saturday morning that she was gonna do that and put the kids' makeup and everything like that and take them to the rehearsal.
Q: And did she do so?
A: Yes, she did.
Q: Was that a telephone call?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you talk about anything else?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell that you Mr. Simpson was coming to the recital?
A: No, we didn't talk about that.
Q: Did you know that he was coming?
A: I didn't even think about it. I didn't ask, so I don't know.
Q: So you did not go to the rehearsal.
A: I didn't go to the rehearsal because I went to a wedding with Ron.
Q: Whose wedding?
A: Our friend's daughter's wedding.
Q: Friend's daughter's wedding.
A: Yeah.
Q: What's the name of this bride?
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: Last name is what?
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: Now, reading from your statement to Michael Viner, et al., concerning the recital, you said:
"Nicole was in the back with Justin. O.J. was like all the way in the back and he was -- he was -- he looked you know, so tired and really -- hc felt so sad because the whole family was there. And, um, I actually, um, told Ron at that time I was going to take a picture of Sydney and Justin and Sydney and O.J. That picture has been -- everybody wanted that picture to the point where Shapiro wanted it, Marcia Clark wanted it, but that was the -- that was the last picture." Okay. Do you recall making those statements?
A: Yeah, that was the last picture, yes.
Q: Were all the statements that I just read statements that you made?
A: Yes, I made them.
Q: And were they all true to the best of your knowledge?
A: Yes.
Q: Including the statement that O.J. looked "so tired"?
A: Yes.
Q: And that O.J. "felt so sad"?
A: Well, from -- I mean, you could see -- tired and sad is -- I felt bad too, because at the time, too, Ron and I were fighting, so it was a manifestation of my feeling of loneliness, too.
Q: You feel some reason to withdraw from your statement that O.J. felt sad that evening?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You seem like you have trouble now owning up to the fact that you said that.
A: Well, when I looked at him, he did look sad because he was all the way at the corner.
Q: Thank you. He looked sad. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Thank you.
A: Tired and sad.
Q: And you know that he didn't go out with his family that night. Right?
A: I didn't know that.
Q: He wasn't sitting with his family. Right?
A: No, he wasn't.
Q: Did you -- You did not know that -- where he went after he left the recital?
A: No.
MR. KRAMER: Are you asking if she knew then --
MR. PETROCELLI: At the time. At the time.
MR. KRAMER: -- or if she knows now?
MR. PETROCELLI: At the time.
THE WITNESS: At the time, no.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you ask Nicole, "Where are you going" --
A: Yes.
Q: -- that evening at the recital?
A: They said they were going to go to Mezzaluna.
Q: Did they invite you and your family to come along?
A: No, because it was the whole family, and then we were going to go separate families.
Q: Did you understand that Mr. Simpson was going with Nicole and the rest of the family to Mezzaluna?
A: I didn't even think of that.
Q: Did you have an understanding as to whether or not he was going with them?
A: I assumed.
Q: You assumed what?
A: That they were going to go.
Q: That Mr. Simpson was going also.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You've never told anyone about that assumption before. Correct?
A: I'm just telling you now. I mean...
Q: You didn't tell the police officers that, did you?
A: No.
Q: But you knew that Nicole and Mr. Simpson were having a severe conflict at that time --
MR. BAKER: Leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: -- about the IRS and about the conversation concerning buying Nicole's friends and taking Nicole's friends. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Leading and vague.
THE WITNESS: Correct, yeah.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So why would you assume that they were going out together that evening?
A: Because their family -- their children came first. It's like Ron and I, you know, no matter how big fighting we had, we still did for the kids.
Q: Nicole never told you that she was going out with Mr. Simpson that evening. Right?
A: No.
Q: Or that she would be inviting him to dinner. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And on Saturday when you spoke about the rehearsal, did you also talk about dinner plans on Sunday evening after the recital?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Now, the next day after Nicole's death was June 13. Correct?
A: Right.
Q: And you were at your house with Ron Fischman and, for a time, Cici Shahian. Right?
A: June 13?
Q: Yeah.
A: Cici wasn't there.
Q: At no time?
A: No.
Q: At no time the rest of that week after Nicole's death were you with Ron and Cynthia Shahian?
A: Ron --
Q: Ron, your husband, and Cynthia Shahian?
A: I don't remember. She was in and out of our house at the time.
Q: So there was a time --
A: Yes.
Q: -- when she was in your house. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you ever speak to your husband Ron about his conversation with O.J. Simpson that evening?
A: No, because Ron and I were not talking.
Q: Not at all?
A: We would talk about kids, but -- we talked, but we didn't -- we weren't talking about those things because he was mad at me and I was mad at him, so...
Q: So that evening at dinner he didn't say anything to you about Mr. Simpson's conduct or demeanor?
MR. KRAMER: This is the Sunday night?
MR. PETROCELLI: Sunday evening, correct.
THE WITNESS: Sunday night, no.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And the next day after you found out Nicole had been murdered, did you and Ron Fischman talk about Nicole's death?
A: Of course we did. We were saddened by it.
Q: And did you talk about who was responsible for it?
A: We were confused. We were like -- it's just, "What happened?" We were afraid to speak.
Q: Privately to each other, did you talk to each other about what had happened to Nicole the next day when you found out?
A: What had happened?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: And did you and Ron discuss whether Mr. Simpson killed Nicole?
A: We thought about it, yes.
Q: And you talked about it. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did Ron Fischman tell you about that?
A: What did Ron Fischman?
Q: Yes.
A: Well, the same thing that I was -- we were talking about, you know, how they were trying to work things out and it didn't work out. "What happened?" you know.
Q: Did Ron tell you about his conversations with Mr. Simpson at the recital --
A: No.
Q: -- that next day?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Isn't it true that Ron told you and Cynthia Shahian that O.J. Simpson said to him that evening that he would get evening -- he would get even with Nicole, that he's not done with her yet?
MR. BAKER: Leading.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Isn't it true that you were told that?
A: That's not true.
Q: You deny that?
A: He didn't tell me.
Q: Didn't he tell you and Miss Shahian words to that effect?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: You know, I don't remember, you know, so I don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So if your husband would testify to that, would you say he'd be Iying?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: He'd be lying?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes, if he testifies to that, would he be lying? Yes or no.
A: l don't know if he said that. He didn't tell me. So if he said that, yes, he would be lying, because I didn't -- he didn't tell me.
Q: And if Cynthia Shahian testifies that your husband said that to you and her, would she be lying?
A: Well, I don't know Cynthia, you know.
Q: You don't know her?
A: Well, not now. I don't know that woman anymore.
Q: You're upset with her?
A: No, I'm not upset with her. It's just that she has sold a lot of stories about my girlfriend, and I'm very upset with that.
Q: So you're not -- you don't have a relationship with her anymore. Right?
A: Not anymore.
Q: And at one time she used to be your friend. Right?
A: I thought she was, but she really wasn't my friend. She was just being friendly with me because I was Nicole's friend.
Q: And after Nicole died your friendship stopped?
A: No. Actually she was calling me every day and wanting to be friends with me, and my sister [Name Deleted] said, "Just be careful, you know, these people are getting information from you." You know, "Don't trust them."
Q: And you're upset with Cynthia because she has profited from the exploitation of Nicole's death?
A: No. She has said things that weren't true.
Q: Didn't you say that she has sold her story to many people, or words to that effect?
A: That's what I heard, because all the things I told her, it was coming out in the tabloid. That's why the Browns thought I was the one selling it to the tabloids.
Q: So you think Cynthia Shahian has been selling stories to the tabloids?
A: I thought so, too, yes.
Q: Do you know that for a fact?
A: Michael Viner told me.
Q: And what did Michael tell you?
A: Cynthia and Candice Garvey.
Q: Have been selling stories to the tabloids?
A: Yes.
Q: For money?
A: I assume.
Q: Did he tell you that it was for money?
A: He told me that Candice Garvey made a hundred thousand dollars.
Q: For doing what?
A: For giving information.
Q: To whom?
A: To the tabloid.
Q: Does that bother you, that she would do so?
A: It doesn't -- it bothers me, yes.
Q: That she would make money?
A: No, not the money issue. It's giving information to the people that -- it's invasion of privacy. I mean, you know, my girlfriend's dead. Why would you even tell the whole world what happened to her, you know, her private life.
Q: So it bothered you that Candice Garvey was telling tabloids things about Nicole's private life?
A: Yes.
Q: And that's not something you would ever do. Right?
A: I wouldn't want to do that. I mean, you know, you paint a picture of...
Q: And how much did Cynthia Shahian get?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you know if she got a dime?
A: What?
Q: Do you know if she got even one dime?
A: I don't know.
Q: So you don't have any information that she got even one cent for selling information or providing information to tabloids. Correct?
A: I would say correct then.
Q: But yet you have no further relationship with her or friendship at all with her. Right?
A: Well, they all betrayed me. They don't talk to me anymore.
Q: How did she betray you?
A: How? When I was having problems when I...When I did my suicide attempt, she was the only one there and Ron and my kids and Terrence, and then three months after it was in the headline of National Enquirer and Star.
Q: And you assumed that Miss Shahian --
A: Because she was the ony one there.
Q: But there were other people there.
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you ask her if she provided the information?
A: I just heard from other people that she was -- she felt so bad that she did it.
Q: She felt so bad about what?
A: That she told the tabloid.
Q: Have you asked her if she did so?
A: I don't know because I don't -- I can't reach her.
Q: Do you know where she works?
A: No. She works for Michael Viner.
Q: Have you tried calling her?
A: No. Why should I.
Q: But you assume she told the tabloids about your suicide attempt.
A: Yes.
Q: And for that reason you're unhappy with her.
A: Yes.
Q: Did --
A: I never disgraced them, you know. I never told their private lives.
Q: When was your suicide attempt?
A: In October.
Q: 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: What was the reason for that?
MR. BAKER: Irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: I was just overwhelmed by everything. The media was after me, my marital problem, my children, you know, couldn't even take care of my kids because of the media; every week there were stories of Nicole, and I felt like I wanted to control this. I couldn't control it.
And I was getting pressure from the Browns, "You can't talk to" -- "you have to speak in behalf of Nicole," you know. And then the friends are saying, you know, "You can't talk to the Simpson. You can only talk to the Brown."
So the pressure was too much, it was overwhelming, and then media was always after me, you know, "Do this. Do that. You can't say this. You can't say that," and...
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And how did you attempt suicide?
MR. BAKER: Totally irrelevant. Clearly invades this witness' right of privacy.
THE WITNESS: I think I was in so much pain, I was -- I took Tylenol.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. How many?
A: 24 -- you know, it's like a bottle.
Q: Took a whole bottle full?
A: Half that in the evening, because I thought that that would -- my pain would go away, and then the other half.
Q: And isn't it true that Cynthia Shahian helped revive you and --
A: Yes.
Q: -- and helped save your life, didn't she?
A: Yes. I actually was the one -- I called her. I said, "You know what? I need your help. I took" -- "took something. I want you to be here for my kids."
And she said, "What did you do?" And so she helped me.
Q: Okay. And she helped you through that. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And she helped get you medical treatment. Right?
A: No, she -- that was it. And then from then on, she didn't --
Q: When you say "that was it," what do you mean, "that was it"?
A: I mean she helped me to -- yeah, she helped me through the medical treatment, yes.
Q: You were taken to an emergency room. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And your husband Ron was there also.
A: Yes.
Q: And Cynthia called him there. Right?
MR. BAKER: Speculation.
THE WITNESS: Not Cynthia caUed. Ron called home --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And Cynthia told him to come home right away. Right?
A: Exactly.
Q: And how long were you in the hospital?
A: Five days, four days.
Q: And did you get any treatment after you got out of the hospital?
MR. BAKER: Irrelevant.
THE WITNESS: A treatment?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Medical treatment.
A: Yeah, I was seeing a psychologist.
Q: Barry Michaels?
A: No, not Barry Michaels.
Q: Were you taking medication?
A: No.
Q: Have you taken any psychiatric medication?
A: No.
Q: When was the last time you spoke to Mr. Simpson before today?
A: When was the last time? That was Sunday when we went to -- with -- the kids were there.
Q: To his home?
A: I went to pick up the kids, yeah.
Q: Have you slept at the Rockingham residence at all --
MR. BAKER: Irrelevant.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: -- since --
A: Have I slept where?
Q: At the Rockingham residence.
MR. KRAMER: You are talking about the Simpson residence?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
Q: Mr. Simpson's Rockingham residence --
A: No, never.
Q: -- since his release from jail.
A: Never.
Q: Do you have any photographs of Mr. Simpson in your possession other than the ones that you brought here today?
A: That's it.
Q: What about in your boxes of -- at home and your private personal belongings, do you have any photographs of him?
A: No.
Q: None at all?
A: Well, I do have pictures, but pretty much that and, you know -- I mean, I can look. I mean, I'm sure I have pictures.
Q: Have you given Mr. Simpson any photographs since he's been released from jail?
A: No.
Q: Have you given any of his representatives any photographs7
A: No
Q: Have you been asked to provide any photographs?
A: No.
Q: Have you given him any materials?
A: No.
Q: And have you been asked to?
A: No.
Q: Do you ever recall Mr. Simpson wearing Bruno Magli shoes?
A: No.
Q: Do you know what they are?
A: I know what a Bruno Magli shoe is.
Q: You do?
A: I mean --
Q: A men's shoe?
A: No, no. I know --
Q: And you wouldn't know whether he was wearing them or not. Correct?
A: No.
Q: Correct?
A: Correct, yes.
Q: Okay. You saw pictures of those shoes at the criminal trial, did you not?
A: No.
Q: You did not?
A: (Shakes head.)
Q: Did you see pictures of those gloves that were alleged to be the gloves the killer wore? Did you see those gloves?
A: Actual?
Q: Yeah. Did you see --
A: No.
Q: -- them on television?
A: On television?
MR. KRAMER: Are you asking about pictures of the bloody gloves?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I saw, yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Simpson wear gloves like that?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see him wear any gloves?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You knew about this incident where Mr. Simpson was looking in at Nicole having sex with [Name Deleted]. Right?
A: I'm sorry. What?
Q: You knew about this incident when Mr. Simpson was looking in while Nicole was having sex with [Name Deleted] at the Gretna Green apartment?
A: Yes.
Q: And you knew about that because Nicole told you?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did she tell you exactly?
A: That O.J. saw them do it. That was it.
Q: And how did she know O.J. saw them?
A: Because O.J. apparently told -- confronted them that day or that following day. I don't know, but...
Q: Nicole related this to you?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did she say that -- about O.J. confronting her and Keith the next day?
A: That was it. She just said, "O.J. caught us." As far as I can remember, that's pretty much --
Q: Did she tell you what O.J. said to Keith and her the next day --
A: No.
Q: -- after O.J. caught them?
A: No.
Q: Nothing at all?
A: No.
Q: And this was during the period of time when Nicole had split from O.J.?
A: Yeah, that was on Gretna Green yeah.
Q: Okay. And during this period of time Mr. Simpson would call you frequently to find out about Nicole's whereabouts. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Leading. Vague as to the term "frequently."
THE WITNESS: Nicole -- no.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You deny that?
A: Pretty much where -- how Nicole was doing, what's on her mind, yeah.
Q: But not where is she and who is she dating?
A: No. I don't remember. I don't think -- see, Nicole told O.J.
Q: Yeah, but I am not asking about that. Is it true that O.J. would call you frequently to ask you what is Nicole up to?
A: Yes. That's exactly, yeah.
Q: Okay. What is she up to. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And you would tell him what Nicole was up to. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And you understood that Mr. Simpson was very jealous at that time in his life in reference to Nicole. Right?
MR.BAKER: Speculation and leading.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. And at that -- You were in a restaurant, in fact, with Nicole when -- at Toscana's when --
A: Toscana?
Q: Do you recall that incident?
A: Well, if you rehash me. I don't remember --
Q: Do you recall an incident when you were in a restaurant with Nicole and O.J. Simpson at a restaurant called Toscana's?
A: Yeah.
Q: When Mr. Simpson got very jealous about another man?
A: Oh, see, I wasn't there. We came late. They were -- I wasn't there at the time. We came in for dessert at that time.
Q: So you --
A: So I didn't see that.
Q: You didn't see the incident?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you hear about it?
A: Nicole told me.
Q: And what did Nicole tell you?
A: She was first a little bit embarrassed and said that, you know -- I don't know who was there, so I don't even remember who was there because I wasn't there. We came late. Ron and I came late.
Q: She was embarrassed about what?
A: That the guy was there.
Q: Alessandro?
A: Yeah, Alejandro [sic].
Q: Did she tell you what O.J. Simpson's reaction was to seeing Alessandro there?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You don't remember?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And were you with Nicole and Mr. Simpson at a restaurant called Tryst with Nicole when Mr. Simpson was also there?
A: Right.
Q: And did you observe Mr. Simpson's behavior towards Nicole on that evening?
A: They were friendly. They said hello.
Q: Okay. Was there any sign of jealousy on his part that evening?
A: No.
Q: None at all?
A: No.
Q: And you've never told anybody that. Correct?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. You don't recall?
A: I don't recall, no.
Q: Okay. Now, how often would O.J. Simpson call you when Nicole and he were separated in 1992 to 1993?
A: How often?
Q: Yeah.
A: Not that often.
Q: Once a week?
A: No, not really.
Q: How often?
A: I don't know. Once a month, once every three weeks. It wasn't really -- it wasn't that often.
Q: It wasn't very often?
A: No.
Q: And so if you told someone that it was often, you weren't telling the truth. Correct?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I probably used the wrong word. So I'm not --
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: So rethinking that, you would like -- your memory now is that Mr. Simpson did not ask you often what Nicole was up to, just from time to time. Is that right?
MR. BAKER: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Understand, when they were separated, yes, I was talking to him because we were -- they were -- we were all trying to figure out what happened, you know, trying to -- but I don't say "often" in a way every day, no.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Couple times a week?
MR. BAKER: Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I don't -- I don't recall. I mean. I don't remember.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, when -- would you tell him what Nicole's activities were, what men she was dating?
A: No, I never said that to O.J.
Q: Not at all?
A: No.
Q: You would lie to him?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did Nicole know that O.J. was asking about her activities?
A: No, I didn't tell -- I mean, I would just tell her that "O.J. called about you," and that was it, and we really didn't -- we don't talk much about it.
Q: Okay. Did you ever see Mr. Simpson yell or scream at Nicole in your presence?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see him strike her in your presence?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Simpson take drugs in your presence?
A: No.
Q: You never saw Nicole take drugs either. Correct?
A: My presence?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
MR. KRAMER: I think we may have a double negative there. Did you mean to say correct, you never saw her take drugs?
THE WITNESS: I never saw her take drugs.
MR. KRAMER: Okay.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Now, in May of 1994 did you ever get introduced to Ron Goldman?
A: Yes.
Q: And how many times did you meet Mr. Goldman?
A: I actually just met him once. That was the day when we were at Starbucks, and [Name Deleted] said hello to us, and he came and said, "This is our friend Ron," and that's where we met him.
Q: [Name Deleted] said -- [Name Deleted] introduced you to Ron Goldman?
A: Yes.
Q: And who else was there?
A: Just Nicole and I.
Q: Now, did you know of any relationship between Nicole and Ron Goldman?
MR. KRAMER: At that time?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And did you know who this Ron Goldman was?
A: No.
Q: Just a friend of [Name Deleted]'s. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And is that the only time you ever saw him?
A: That's the first -- yeah.
Q: The first and only time.
A: Yes.
Q: And had you ever heard his name mentioned again --
A: Yes.
Q: -- before Nicole's death? Before Nicole's death?
A: Yes.
Q: When?
A: When? Nicole -- actually, that evening Nicole, Faye and Ron and [Name Deleted] went out. They went to Roxbury, and so that's why.
Q: How did you find out about that?
A: Because that evening Ron had those things for the club, free entrance, and invited Nicole to go to that, to Roxbury. And so she invited me to go. I said, "No, I don't want to go."
She said, "Oh, that's okay. I'll take Faye with me."
So they went. So Nicole just told me, yeah, they did go, and they were very drunk and that Ron was the one who drove them home.
Q: She told you that the next day?
A: Yes. She said she couldn't drive, that Ron had to drive the Ferrari home.
Q: Okay. And is that the last time you heard Ron Goldman's name?
A: And she also mentioned about Ron calling -- calling -- calling her up and Nicole -- basically trying, you know, to court Nicole, because she -- he was attracted to Nicole.
Q: Is that what Nicole said?
A: Yes.
Q: And she told that you Ron was interested in her?
A: Yes.
Q: And did she tell you that they had gone out other than on this one occasion?
A: I know they went out to dinner. They went to Locanda Veneta.
Q: How do you know that?
A: Because she told me. Because she told me that she paid for that dinner.
Q: Why did she pay for it? Did she tell you?
A: Because she felt bad. She said, you know, "This guy don't have any money, and I felt bad."
Q: Now, when did she go out with Ron Goldman on that dinner?
A: When? It's got to be any time after that.
Q: Was it before or after her illness in May?
A: It's got to be after her illness.
Q: After?
A: Yeah.
Q: And was it just the two of them that went out to dinner?
A: No. With [Name Deleted].
Q: [Name Deleted], Ron Goldman and Nicole?
A: Right.
Q: And was that the only other time she told you she went out with Mr. Goldman?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you know whether they had a sexual relationship?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole tell you --
A: No.
Q: -- that she had or had not?
A: Well, she told me that she was not really interested with Ron. She says, "I'm not attracted to Ron."
Q: That's what she told you?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Had she told Ron that she was not attracted to him?
A: That I don't know.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether Ron drove her car other than on that one occasion that she told you about?
A: If I know?
Q: Yes.
A: No, I don't know.
Q: Do you have any information as to why Ron Goldman was at her condominium that evening on June 12 when he was killed?
A: Do I know?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: No, I didn't know that he was there.
Q: You had no information about him being there except what you heard in the media afterwards. Right?
A: Right. And also what Faye told me.
Q: What did Faye tell you?
A: Faye told me that --
Q: Can you speak up, please?
A: Faye told me that Ron was going to be there that evening, and that -- that was it.
Q: When did Faye tell you this?
A: That day that Faye and I had coffee in Starbucks.
Q: After Nicole's death?
A: Yes.
Q: How long afterwards?
A: I don't know. Week, two weeks after. Oh, no. She told me at the funeral, when we were in the car.
Q: And she said to you that Ron Goldman was what?
A: Ron Goldman. Because she spoke -- Faye spoke to Nicole, she said, around 9:30, and that Faye had told -- I mean Nicole had told Faye that Ron Goldman was coming.
Q: At 9:30.
A: Yeah. No, that's what Faye told me. They spoke around 9:30.
Q: And in that conversation Nicole told Faye that Ron Goldman was coming over.
A: Right.
Q: Did she say -- did Faye tell you why Ron Goldman was coming over?
A: Well, Faye told me that he was going -- she was going to see if he's good, and then if he's good, that they were going to do the three thing, the threesome thing.
Q: Faye told you that if who's good? I'm confused. Could you relate that conversation to me again?
A: They were trying to -- Faye told me that Nicole was going to try Ron Goldman and...
MR. KRAMER: Let's take a moment. Okay? You'll have your answer.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 4:34.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 4:40.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Before the break you were telling us about a conversation you had with Faye Resnick concerning Ron Goldman.
A: Yes.
Q: First of all, that conversation took place where?
A: She mentioned to me about that at the funeral, in the car.
Q: In the car?
A: Yes.
Q: Was anyone else in the car with you and Faye?
A: Yeah.
Q: Who?
A: The Jenners, the -- Cici and Christian, you know, the whole --
Q: And was Ron Fischman there?
A: Yeah.
Q: So this conversation occurred in the presence of all those people. Right?
A: Well, you know, she was kinda like whispering, and then when we went out and had coffee again she mentioned it to me again, that they were giggling and said that "Ron Goldman's gonna come tonight" --
Q: Who was giggling?
A: Nicole and Faye over the phone were -- you know, she said that they were giggling and they say that they were -- that Ron Goldman was gonna come that evening.
Q: Okay. Faye -- first of all, back to the car. Is it your testimony that no one else overheard to your knowledge the comments that --
A: Well, see, she just said to me --
Q: Faye said to you?
MR. KRAMER: Listen to the question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: You are saying she whispered it in your ear in a limousine in which all those other persons were present. Is that what you're saying?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And she then later told you this in a coffee shop just when the two of you were alone. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And what she told you is around 9:30 p.m. that she, Faye Resnick, had a telephone call with Nicole on the evening of June 12th. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And that the two of them, Nicole and Faye, were giggling in this telephone conversation --
A: Yes.
Q: -- right? And Nicole at the time was in Bundy and Faye was at the treatment center. Right?
A: Right.
Q: And then she told you that Nicole said Ron Goldman was coming over to her place?
A: Faye told me.
Q: Right. That --
A: Yes.
Q: -- Nicole told her that Ron Goldman was on his way over to see her, Nicole?
A: Right.
Q: For what purpose?
A: They were giggling that they were gonna do it.
Q: That Nicole and Ron Goldman were going to have sex that evening?
A: I don't know if it was sex, but they said they were going to do it.
Q: What does "do it" mean? What is the "it"?
A: Well, if you think sex -- I don't know. I wasn't there.
Q: It's not what I think. What did you understand her to mean when she said that to you?
A: Well, what Faye told me was exactly what I told you, that they were going to do it that evening.
Q: What did you understand that to mean?
A: Probably they were going to have a -- they were going to have sex.
Q: Okay. And is that all that Faye told you?
A: She told me that Nicole was going to see if he's good --
Q: Good at sex?
A: Right, if he's good in bed. Then when she comes out of the rehab, that they were gonna do it.
Q: Who was going to do it?
A: The three of them.
Q: And when Faye told you that, did she indicate whether Nicole and she were joking about this or whether they were serious about this?
A: At that time I thought they were serious because they already have done it before with another guy, so...
Q: Now, you knew, of course, based on what Nicole herself had told you, that she had no sexual interest in Ron Goldman. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: So I assume --
A: No, she was not attracted to Ron Goldman.
Q: So I assume you didn't believe this story that you were being told.
A: She told me she was not attracted to Ron Goldman, but, you know --
Q: But what?
A: That "Ron keeps on verbally seducing me. I don't know what to do with him."
Q: Nicole told you that Ron kept verbally seducing her?
A: Right.
Q: When did Nicole tell you that?
A: Those weeks that Ron was calling him -- calling her. I'm sorry.
Q: What did Nicole tell you that Ron was saying to her?
A: I don't remember. I mean verbally seducing, you know, like she said, "I can't wait to be with you, both naked," and this and that, and Nicole was getting tickled by what Ron was telling her.
Q: Did Nicole tell you that she was changing her attitude towards Ron and that she was considering having a relationship with him?
A: No.
Q: Okay. So the last you knew is that she had no interest -- she was not attracted to him, as
you put it. Right?
A: She was not attracted to Nicole -- to Ron, yes.
Q: Did Faye tell you anything else about this conversation?
A: Faye told me that -- that's pretty much what I told you, that Nicole just kept on wanting to do this, you know, this thing that they just did with Brett, and she wanted to try it out again, and they thought that Ron Goldman would be the next guy that they could try.
Q: Faye -- Nicole never mentioned that to you, right, having a threesome with Ron Goldman?
A: No, no, no.
Q: That all comes from Faye Resnick?
A: Faye told me, yes.
Q: Okay. Did you ever tell that to Mr. Simpson, what you just related to us about this conversation with Faye Resnick?
A: I told him.
Q: When did you tell him?
A: After the verdict. You know, I was like trying to understand Nicole.
Q: And what did Mr. Simpson say when you told him?
A: He was shocked. He said, "That's not the Nicole I know. Nicole was a devoted" --
Q: Mr. Simpson express his views about Faye Resnick to you?
MR. BAKER: You cut her off.
THE WITNESS: Well, he's also upset about the book.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: "Also " meaning you are also upset?
A: I was upset about the book, yes.
Q: You are also upset about what Faye wrote about you and your affair with Terrence. Right?
A: That's minor, but the whole -- the general tone of the book was inappropriate. A friend wouldn't write a book like that.
Q: So I take it you no longer regard Faye Resnick as a friend. Right?
A: I never regarded her as a friend.
Q: But you are particularly unhappy about the book that she wrote. Correct?
A: I thought so, too, yeah. The book was very tasteless.
Q: When was the last time you spoke to Faye Resnick?
A: Last time?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: When she was driving her car, her Range Rover, she saw me. I was on Highwood in Brentwood, and I said hello, you know. I said, "What did you do?" That's all.
And she said, you know, she said, "Nicole was my friend."
I said, "Well, Nicole was my friend, too. Why did you have to do that?"
And then she said, "Call me." So she gave her card to me. I never called her back.
Q: Okay. Did you -- were you driving in a car with Kris Jenner during the week of June 13 when you ran into Mr. Simpson at all?
A: Christian?
Q: Kris Jenner --
A: Kris Jenner.
Q: -- and you driving in a car on June 13 or 14 when you ran into Mr. Simpson in a car with Mr. Kardashian. Do you recall that incident?
A: That wasn't Kris. That was Cici. Cici Shahian.
Q: You and Cici?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You recall than incident?
A: Yes.
Q: Describe it to me.
A: Well, Cici and I felt funny about it. It Goes, "Oh, my God, look, there's my cousin with O.J. and here you are with me," and that was it. We just felt funny.
Q: And what day was this?
A: What day was this?
Q: (Nods head.)
A: Wednesday? I don't know.
Q: Tuesday or Wednesday?
A: Yeah, somewhere around there.
Q: Where were you?
A: I was in the car with Cici.
Q: And where were you driving?
A: On San Vicente.
Q: And were you stopped at a light?
A: Yes.
Q: And next to you was Mr. Kardashian and Mr. Simpson in Mr. Kardashian's Mercedes. Correct?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. And did you get out of the car?
A: No.
Q: Did you roll down the window to talk to them?
A: No.
Q: Did they say anything to you?
A: No. I don't think they saw us.
Q: Did they say anything to you?
A: No.
Q: All right. You don't know one way or the other whether they saw you. Right?
A: No, I don't know.
Q: Correct?
A: Correct.
Q: And what did you say to Cici and what did she say to you about this?
A: What did she say... We just both felt funny. That was it.
Q: Now, you hadn't seen O.J. Simpson since you had learned of Nicole's murder up until this point in time. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Didn't you want to get out of the car and embrace him and grieve with him? Didn't you want to get his attention?
A: We were in the car, so it was kinda hard to --
Q: I understand.
A: And they were talking, and Cici and I were like talking to --
Q: How do you know they were talking?
A: I mean, we saw their mouths opening (Indicating), you know, so...
Q: So you made no attempt to talk to him.
A: No.
Q: Okay. What time of day was this?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Afternoon? Morning? Evening?
A: I just don't remember. I'm sorry.
Q: Which direction was Mr.Simpson and Mr. Kardashian headed in their car?
A: We were going west.
Q: On?
A: San Vicente.
Q: San Vicente. Okay. And why were you driving with Cici on that occasion, the day after Nicole's murder?
MR. KRAMER: I am not sure you've established the actual date, but we will --
MR. PETROCELLI: June 13.
THE WITNESS: Why?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Yes.
A: I don't remember. I don't know -- she was seeing me every day, almost every day at the time.
Q: You were not upset with her then. Right?
A: I thought she was my friend.
Q: Right. You had no reason to be upset with her at that time. Right?
A: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay, we will stop here.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
MR. PETROCELLI: Resume tomorrow at 9:30.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Cora A. Fischman, Volume I. The number of videotapes used was three. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 4:52.
(ENDING TIME: 4:52 P.M.)
I DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT.
SUBSCRIBED AT ___________,
CALIFORNIA, THIS _ DAY OF___, 19__.
CORA A. FISCHMAN