SHARON RUFO, Plaintiff, vs. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al., No. SC 031947 Consolidated with No. SC 036340 and SC 036876
VOLUME III
DEPOSITION OF ALLEN COWLINGS
Los Angeles, California
April 26, 1996
DAVID S COLEMAN
CSR #4613
JOB NO. 96-1265
SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
SHARON RUFO, Plaintiff vs. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON et al., Defendants
FREDRIC GOLDMAN, etc., et al., Plaintiffs, vs. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, et al., Defendants.
LOUIS H BROWN, etc., Plaintiffs, vs. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, Defendant.
VOLUME III
Continued videotaped deposition of ALLEN COWLINGS, taken on behalf of the Plaintiffs, at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard, 10th Floor, Los Angeles, California commencing at 10:00 a m., on Friday, April 26, 1996 before David S. Coleman, CSR #4613, pursuant to Subpoena.
APPEARANCES:
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS FREDRIC GOLDMAN, ET AL.: MITCHELL, SILBERBERG & KNUPP
BY: DANIEL M. PETROCELLI, ESQ.
11377 West Olympic Boulevard
Sixth Floor
Los Angeles, California 90064-1683
FOR THE PLAINTIFF ESTATE OF BROWN: JOHN QUINLAN KELLY, ESQ.
330 Madison Avenue
New York, New York 10017-5090
(212) 662-1700
-and-
NATASHA ROIT, ESQ.
116 North Robertson Boulevard
Suite 705
Los Angeles, California 90048
(On record but not present)
FOR THE PLAINTIFF SHARON RUFO: HORNBERGER & CRISWELL
BY: MICHAEL A. BREWER, ESQ.
444 South Flower Street
Thirty-First Floor
Los Angeles, California 90071
FOR THE DEFENDANT ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON:
BAKER, SILBERBERG & KEENER
2850 Ocean Park Boulevard
Suite 300
Santa Monica, California 90405-2936
(Of record but not present)
-and-
BAILEY, FISHMAN & LEONARD
BY: DANIEL LEONARD, ESQ.
66 Long Wharf
Boston, Massachusetts 02110
(617) 723-1980
-and-
ROBERT D. BLASIER, ESQ.
6355 Riverside Boulevard
Suite 2-F
Sacramento, California 95831
(916) 427-1600
(Of record but not present)
FOR THE WITNESS:
LAW OFFICES OF DONALD M. RE
BY: DONALD M. RE, ESQ.
660 South Figueroa Street
Twenty-First Floor
Los Angeles, California 90017
INDEX
WITNESS:
ALLEN COWLINGS - VOLUME III
Examination by Mr. Kelly 576
Examination by Mr. Petrocelli 811
EXHIBITS:
Plaintiffs' Description Identified
178 Photograph 665
179 Diagram of 360 North Rockingham Avenue with hand-drawn notations 732
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning Here begins videotape No. l in the deposition of Allen Cowlings, Volume III, in the consolidated cases of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs. Orenthal James Simpson in the Superior Court, State of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is SC 031947. Today's date is April 26, 1996. The time is approximately 9:58. This deposition is being taken at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California, and was made at the request of plaintiff of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp.
The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed by Coleman, Haas, Martin & Schwab of Los Angeles, California.
Would counsel please identify yourselves and state whom you represent.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly for the Estate of Nicole Brown Simpson.
MR. BREWER: Michael Brewer for Plaintiff Sharon Rufo.
MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for Plaintiff Fredric Goldman.
MR. LEONARD: Daniel Leonard for O.J. Simpson.
MR. RE: Donald Re for Allen Cowlings.
ALLEN COWLINGS, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. KELLY: Good morning, Mr. Cowlings.
A: Morning.
Q: How you doing?
A: Fine.
Q: Good. Mr. Cowlings, have you spoken to anybody since last Wednesday when you left here regarding the testimony you have given us to date?
A: No. Except my lawyer.
Q: Other than Mr. Re, have you spoken to anybody?
A: No.
Q: Have you spoken to Mr. Simpson since last Wednesday
A: No.
Q: when you left here? I'm sorry?
A: No.
MR. RE: I should make it clear, I have asked him not to speak to Mr. Simpson
MR. KELLY: Okay.
MR. RE: during the pendency of this deposition.
MR. KELLY: Okay, great.
Q: And you recall that you have asserted what we have referred to as the privilege a number of times the last couple days when asked questions?
A: Pertaining to
Q: Certain events.
A: Certain dates.
Q: Certain dates?
A: (Nods head.)
Q: Yes. And would you be willing to testify fully regarding those dates if given immunity by the District Attorney's Office?
MR. RE: I don't think he would have any choice. The only quarrel I have is when you say, "immunity by the District Attorney's Office," you mean given immunity
MR. KELLY: From criminal prosecution.
MR. RE: Theoretically, the immunity would come from the court as opposed to the District Attorney's Office.
MR. KELLY: Right.
MR. RE: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. How long have you known Robert Kardashian, Mr. Cowlings?
A: Quite a long time. I think we met in the early '70s.
Q: And where did you meet him?
A: I actually met Bob through O.J., met Bob and his brother. All of us just started well, myself, I had just started playing tennis, and they were very nice to invite us over to play tennis with them.
Q: What's Bob's brother's name?
A: Tom. Tom Kardashian.
Q: And you used to spend a lot of time at the Kardashian's place?
A: Yeah, there, and we would frequent we would go out to dinner, you know. Great family.
Q: Okay. And what about his first wife Chris, did you know her?
A: Yes, knew Chris well.
Q: And when did you first meet her?
A: I guess when her and Bob started dating.
Q: Okay. Do you recall approximately what year that was?
A: Still in the '70s, probably mid '70s, I would think. I don't know for sure. She was an airline stewardess when they met, and I helped her move, too, eventually when she moved out of her apartment in the Valley.
Q: Okay. When you first met Bob Kardashian, do you know what type of employment he was involved in, what his profession was?
A: I think he was a lawyer.
Q: Okay. Did he ever do any legal work or provide any legal services on your behalf?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And when you met him in the early `70s, you indicated you met him through Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you know what Mr. Simpson's relationship was with Bob Kardashian back then?
MR LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Other than that, you can answer.
A: Bob, as when I met Bob, turned out that he went to USC, too, and he had been the head manager of the football team, which the head manager is like an assistant to the coach, to the head coach
Q: That was while he was still a student there?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: So the connection is USC, and by the fact of O.J. being very successful there and being a Heisman Trophy winner, I guess when Bob and I don't know exactly where they met, but that was the common denominator for them.
Q: But when you met Kardashian in a social You met him in a social setting. Is that correct?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And did you used to socialize with both Kardashian and Simpson?
A: At times, yes.
Q: Okay. Did you ever even see a business card for Mr. Kardashian?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson ever talk to you about using Mr. Kardashian as an attorney?
A: I don't know, to be honest with you. I know they were great friends. I know O.J. eventually I think his first office was in Bob's building, and yeah, something like that.
Q: Okay. Do you know if Mr. Simpson ever used Mr. Kardashian in a legal capacity?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: Not that I know of.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. You don't know of any time Mr. Kardashian provided legal services to Mr. Simpson?
A: Not
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Same objection.
THE WITNESS: Not that I know of.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. When did you first meet Skip Taft?
A: I met Skip probably my probably in the early '70s. He my manager at the time was a gentleman by the name of Chuck Barnes, who was the same agent he was the agent O.J. wasthat was his agent, too. Skip and I think Chuck had been friends through college.
Q: So when you signed out of college, you used Chuck Barnes as an agent?
A: Yes.
Q: And Simpson had used Chuck Barnes a year before when he signed out of college?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you ever Strike that. Did Skip Taft ever provide you with legal services, ever?
A: No.
Q: Did you spend much Did you meet Mr. Taft through Simpson?
A: I would say I met him through Chuck Barnes when my when I became a client of Sports I think it was Sports Headliners, Incorporated, something like that.
Q: Okay. And would you be able to tell me what the relationship was, as you understood it, between Skip Taft and Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. It's vague. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: At that time I don't know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Taft was a business advisor of Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I think he was employed by Sports I mean by the agency at the time.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: That Taft was?
A: I think so.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether he provided any business services to Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: I think he was there for Sports Headliners and whoever clients they had. I don't know if it was all of us or just certain ones.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Taft ever provided legal services to Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: Eventually, when O.J. broke away from Sports Headliners, I think Skip at that time became his lawyer in whatever capacity that Skip is working for O.J. for.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. What about Ahmad Rashad, how long have you known him for?
MR. LEONARD: I didn't hear the question.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Ahmad Rashad, how long have you known him for, first of all?
A: I've been knowing him for quite a long time. We knew of each other through college. He was at Oregon while I was at USC.
Q: Okay. And were you friends even in college?
A: No. We started to become friends once I think he got out of Oregon. He had moved to Los Angeles.
Q: Okay. And do you know what Rashad's relationship was with Simpson?
A: Friends.
Q: Still friends to this day?
A: Far as I know.
Q: Okay. We had spoken a little bit about Wayne Hughes the other day. Did you have any business dealings with Wayne Hughes?
A: Wayne is one of my closest friends. I have been involved with some of when Wayne first started his company, he got me he had me to invest in it.
Q: Public Storage?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you did invest in it?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you work for Public Storage for a number of years?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you still talk to Wayne Hughes regularly?
A: Yes.
Q: When was the last time you spoke to him?
A: What's today, Friday?
MR. RE: Uh-huh.
THE WITNESS: Spoke to him Wednesday.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you discuss anything with regard to the deposition that you've where you've been giving the testimony here today?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did he indicate that he knew you were in the middle of your deposition testimony when you spoke to him?
A: I guess everybody knows through the leaks in here. Geraldo gets it before anybody.
Q: I didn't know anybody knew.
A: Oh, I bet you don't.
Q: When Has Mr. Simpson been friends with Wayne Hughes for as long as you have, also?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson invest in Public Storage in the same manner you did, if you know?
A: That I don't know.
Q: Have Simpson and Hughes been long-time friends?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know whether they still have a strong friendship to this day?
A: As far as I know, yes.
Q: Do you know when the last time Hughes and Simpson have spoken?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether they have spoken in the last six months?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Hughes has spoken to Simpson since Simpson's release from jail?
A: That I don't know.
Q: Do you know whether Hughes ever visited Simpson in jail?
A: He did.
Q: Do you know whether he visited him more than once?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know in approximately what time frame Mr. Hughes visited Simpson in jail after Simpson's initial incarceration?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Hughes ever discuss with you the substance of any conversation he had had with Mr. Simpson in jail?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Hughes ever indicate to you that he was going to go speak to Mr. Simpson in jail?
A: When you say "speak"
Q: Visit him.
A: Oh, yeah, he was going to visit O.J., yes.
Q: Did he tell you he was going to?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Mr. Hughes ever tell you what he was going to speak to Mr. Simpson about when he visited him?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Mr. Hughes express ever express to you that he was unhappy with what was going on in the media with regard to Nicole Brown Simpson?
A: He was very unhappy with all of it.
Q: I am asking you specifically now: Did he indicate to you that he was very unhappy with what was going on in the media with regard to Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
THE WITNESS: He didn't say specifically anyone. He was just very upset with all of it, the whole picture of it, what the media was doing.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did he ever indicate to you that he felt that Mr. Simpson was responsible for a lot of the negative media reports that were coming out about Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Hughes ever indicate to you that he was going to go speak to Mr. Simpson about all the negative media that was coming out regarding Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Hughes ever indicate to you afterwards that he had spoken to Mr. Simpson about the negative media coming out about Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did Mr. Hughes ever ask you if you could do anything to control all of the negative publicity coming out about Nicole?
A: I wish I could have. No.
Q: Okay. Who is Mark Packer?
A: Mark Packer is a friend that lived on lives on the East Coast.
Q: New York?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And where do you know him from?
A: I met Mark Packer through a friend of mine out here by the name of Alan Schwartz.
Q: And Schwartz is from back East also?
A: Yes.
Q: And Schwartz knew Packer before he moved out here to the West Coast?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you know what kind of work Packer does here in the East Coast?
A: I think he's in the restaurant business. He owns a number of restaurants back on the East Coast.
Q: When was the last time you spoke to Packer?
A: It's been a while.
Q: Have you spoke to him since Simpson's release?
A: I think I spoke to Packer when I was back on the East Coast working.
Q: Do you know whether he and Mr. Simpson still maintain a relationship a friendship?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: That I don't know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Were Simpson and Packer friends at one time?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether they are friends now or not?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: As far as I know, yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. How long have you known Cathy Randa?
A: I've known Cathy for a long time. She used to work for Bob Kardashian.
Q: And in what capacity did she work for Kardashian?
A: She was his assistant.
Q: And as an assistant, what type of work did she do for Kardashian?
A: I guess answering phones, type, took dictation, made appointments. Whatever assistant's duties are for, she provided.
Q: Do you know what type of work Kardashian was doing that Cathy Randa was assisting in?
A: He was a lawyer.
Q: Do you know anything else he did besides lawyering?
A: Him and his brother had started or bought into a newspaper called R & R, which is Radio & Records. It's a public a news publication that deals with the radio stations across the nation.
Q: Did you personally know of anybody who Bob Kardashian provided legal services for?
MR. LEONARD: At any time?
THE WITNESS: At any time?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: At any time.
A: He did get into briefly he got into representing ballplayers.
Q: Do you know any ballplayer he represented?
A: The names slip me now. This was early on.
Q: Just like that girlfriend in San Francisco in '79?
MR. LEONARD: Object. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I answered that question.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I know. Think you might remember those ballplayers' names later on?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if he represented them in a agent capacity or a legal capacity?
A: I was I
MR. LEONARD: I am going to object to that as lack of foundation and asking him to speculate.
THE WITNESS: I'd just be guessing. Like I say, I don't know exactly what he did for them.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Other than briefly representing ballplayers, do you know of any legal-related work he ever did?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I would be guessing.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Going back to Cathy Randa now, how long did she work for Bob Kardashian?
A: Long time. I think when Bob I don't know if he went full time over to R & R or whenever he went full time to R &: R, I guess he trying to think. That would have been... I really don't know. She worked for him for quite a long time.
Q: Okay. And do you know where she went to work after she left Kardashian?
A: I think she went to work for O.J.
Q: And did you have a social relationship with Cathy Randa?
A: What do you mean by "social"?
Q: Well, did you ever see her at like parties at Simpson's house?
A: We were friends. I guess she could have been at the house on some events that O.J. and Nicole would host.
Q: Would you be able to tell me in what capacity she worked for Simpson?
A: She was O.J.'s assistant.
Q: Do you know what type of work she did for him?
A: She choreographed: She ran his office, made his appointments.
Q: Do you know whether or not she took care of his personal matters also as part of her job?
A: When you say
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calling for speculation.
THE WITNESS: What do you mean by "personal"?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well, do you know whether she was responsible for paying the bills for his house?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Do you know whether she kept his social calendar?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation, call for speculation.
THE WITNESS: She probably did, yeah.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you know whether Simpson relied on her heavily in terms of running his everyday affairs?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation, and is vague.
THE WITNESS: He was paying her. I guess he did.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did he mention her often?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Cathy was a very good friend of O.J., too, besides, you know, working for him.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever have to coordinate things through Cathy, if you were dealing with Mr. Simpson, in terms of appointments and things like that?
A: If I wanted to find out if he was in town or if he was going to be in town somewhere, Cathy would be the one that I would call.
Q: Would she always have his travel itinerary available?
A: Yes.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
151 Q: Okay. Did you know Paula Barbieri at all?
A: Vaguely.
Q: What do you mean by "vaguely"?
A: I didn't know her that well.
Q: Had you had occasion to see her in the last, say, two months prior to Nicole's murder in June of 1994?
A: I may have. I don't know for sure. I remember seeing her in January during the Super Bowl, during that whole week.
Q: Was she with Simpson at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Where was the Super Bowl that year?
A: It was in Los Angeles that year, out to Pasadena. That wasn't the year?
MR. PETROCELLI: (Shakes head.)
THE WITNESS: What year was that?
MR. PETROCELLI: I think it was in Atlanta.
THE WITNESS: Oh, that's about the most time I ever spent with her, so it could have been the year before. Like I say, I didn't see a lot of Paula.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: But you have a recollection of seeing her at one of the Super Bowls?
A: When the Super Bowl was played here in Los Angeles, yes.
Q: Where did you see her with Simpson that week?
A: She everybody was down. His family was down from Los I mean from San Francisco, his mother, his sister, his brother-in-law. NBC was doing the Super Bowl that particular year. I guess that was '8- '93 then? '93? So and friends were in from out of town. It was a big, big event, and
Q: Was Simpson her escort for that week for those affairs?
A: He was working. I mean, you know, he was doing his the interviews with both of the teams. I think it was Buffalo and and the Dallas Cowboys played that year, I think.
MR. RE: Who won?
THE WITNESS: Dallas. So she I was around the house a lot during that period, so that's probably the most I've ever spent that much time around Paula.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And your best recollection is that it was in January of '93?
A: If that's when the Super Bowl was played here, yes.
Q: Okay. I had asked you briefly once before about Joe Stellini.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And you had indicated that you had seen him in The Daisy before. Is that correct?
A: Yes. The Daisy club?
Q: Yes.
A: The Daisy, the Luau, at his house for dinner. We played tennis. We jog. Joe and I did a lot of things together.
Q: Do you recall whether he was working at The Daisy club back in '79?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Do you know if he was ever manager there?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Would you be able to remember who he was dating back then?
A: Probably was Vicky. I think it was Vicky. I don't know her last name.
Q: Can you think of Stellini's girlfriend before Vicky, what her name might have been?
MR. LEONARD: Object to "might have been." Calls for speculation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Stellini have a girlfriend before Vicky?
A: Oh, let me back up. Let me back up. Let me back up. You said in '79. I don't think he was going with Vicky then. I think he that's when he opened his restaurant. Him and Donna was still married. So I don't want to hear that on "Geraldo" tonight.
Q: Missing the time, anyway.
A: Oh, yeah you got time.
Q: Was since this is just
A: Please, I mean, please, in all honesty, he eventually did go with Vicky, but it wasn't in '79. He was still married, happily, with Donna.
Q: One other question following up on that: Was there another young lady that came into Mr. Stelleni's life after Vicky, then, that you can recall?
A: When he eventually started going with Vicky?
Q: Yeah.
A: Him and Vicky went together for a long time. I don't know.
Q: Okay. Do you know who Stellini's current wife is?
A: Joe is not married.
Q: Has he been married other than the time he was married to Donna?
A: That's the only marriage I knew of.
Q: What about McCullum, how long have you known Tom McCullum for?
A: Off and on for a number of years. O.J. and I started a social softball game during the summer during the off-season, and eventually it worked into where we it became a standard thing during the off-season that we'd play softball games on the weekends, and we had the Daisy had put together a team. Jack what was his name? He's passed away. He was the owner of The Daisy
MR. PETROCELLI: Hanson?
THE WITNESS: Hanson, right. Jack Hanson put together he was very athletic and very sports-minded, so they put together a softball team, and I think that's how I met Tom, was after one of the games Jack had invited both teams over to his house for like cold drinks and what have you, and he lived on Rodeo, I think, and he had a tennis court, and Tom was out there, and Tom was a tremendous tennis player.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you know how long he had been friends with Simpson for?
A: I guess some time. I couldn't put a definite, you know, date on it. I don't know everybody knew each other.
Q: What type of work did McCullum do?
A: I couldn't tell you.
Q: What about Ornstein, do you know him?
A: Yeah, Mike Ornstein, yeah.
Q: How long did you know him for?
A: When Mike moved down to when the Raiders moved down to Los Angeles, he was employed by the Los Angeles Raiders, and at that time Stellini's restaurant was a very well-known restaurant for, you know, a lot of sports figures.
Q: And you'd see Ornstein in there?
A: He came in, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I eventually met him there. I guess he had been there a number of times, but I was in there one night, and we introduced each other. I knew of him. He knew of me.
Q: Did Ornstein spend a lot of time with Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, social events.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you know what Mike Ornstein's wife's name is?
A: His wife now?
Q: Well, first of all, his wife then.
MR. LEONARD: When is "then"?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, when you say "then"
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: When did you first meet Ornstein?
A: It's when the Raiders moved to Los Angeles.
Q: Early '70s?
MR. PETROCELLI: '83.
MR. KELLY: '83? There you go.
THE WITNESS: I'd be lost without you.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: He was lost without you for a while.
A: I don't think Mike was married then. If he was, I had no knowledge of it.
Q: Is he married now?
A: Yes, he's married now.
Q: And do you know his wife's name?
A: Christian or Chris, something like that.
Q: What about Kolkowitz?
A: Koko?
Q: Yeah.
A: Joe? Yeah, knew Joe.
Q: How long have you known Joe for?
A: I probably met Joe the same time I met Tom. A tremendous tennis player. Him and Tom would matter of fact, that particular day over at Jack Hanson, they were playing against each other.
Q: By the way, did you happen to see Kolkowitz over at Schwartz's house New Year's Day, '89?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You don't recall seeing him that morning over there?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you know whether he picked up Simpson at Schwartz's house that New Year's Day morning of '89?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Schwartz tell you that Kolkowitz had taken Simpson off somewhere from his house?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you know Ron Fischman at all?
A: Cora's husband?
Q: Yeah.
A: Met him one or two times.
Q: Ever write any prescriptions out for you?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Is that what he does?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I am asking you. Did he ever
A: I don't know what Ron Fischman does.
Q: Okay. Do you know Toni Kitaen?
A: Tawny Kitaen?
Q: Tawny.
A: Yeah, I know Tawny.
Q: And where do you know her from?
A: I guess through O.J.
Q: And what was O.J.'s relationship with her
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: if there was one?
A: Friends.
Q: Anything more than that?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: No, I that take back. I take that back. I met Tawny through Marcus.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. What year was that?
A: I couldn't tell you.
Q: Was it in the '80s?
A: Probably, yeah, in the '80s.
Q: Early '80s?
A: That I couldn't tell you.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Simpson was ever romantically involved with Miss Kitaen?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation
THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.
MR. LEONARD: calls for speculation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I am sorry?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Simpson never told you he was?
A: I don't remember.
Q: And Kitaen never told you she was?
A: No.
Q: What was the relationship between Miss Kitaen and Cathy Randa, if any?
A: I think they friends.
Q: Okay.
(Discussion held off the record.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you recognize that picture?
A: I recognize the person, yes.
MR. KELLY: Okay. That's Exhibit 177 that we are viewing right now.
Q: And who do you recognize that to be?
A: O.J.
Q: Okay. And does that appear to be a fair and accurate representation of Mr. Simpson as you know him?
A: Facially, yes.
Q: Other than facially, is there anything else in that picture that strikes you as inaccurate?
MR. LEONARD: Objection
THE WITNESS: I don't know
MR. RE: Wait. Wait. Wait. The problem is that everybody knows that there is a big dispute going on as to whether this is a legitimate picture, so you are asking him to speculate about what he knows.
MR. KELLY: I am just asking him, based on his own observation, if there is anything that doesn't look accurate in that picture.
MR. PETROCELLI: In all due respect, Mr. Re, I am not aware of any major dispute regarding the authenticity of that picture.
MR. RE: You should watch "Geraldo."
THE WITNESS: May I make a statement?
MR. LEONARD: No.
MR. PETROCELLI: You don't control the witness, Mr. Leonard. Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: No. What I'm saying, I assume you got this from the tabloids?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: That particular
A: This particular one.
Q: copy, yes.
A: And I know for a fact that they have in the past doctored a lot of their pictures, and in one instance they doctored a picture of Nicole once on their front page. So what I'm telling you, what I know from here (Indicating), yes, that's O.J. Anywhere down from there (Indicating), I don't know.
Q: You don't recognize that
A: No.
Q: physique? That doesn't appear to be his physique from the neck down?
A: Facially that's O.J. Simpson.
Q: And your testimony is that the body is not O.J. Simpson?
A: I don't know whose body it is.
Q: Is it your testimony that
A: I don't know whose body it is.
Q: Mr. Cowlings, you have to let me finish answering the question.
MR. RE: You mean asking the question?
MR. PETROCELLI: Asking.
MR. KELLY: Asking the question.
Q: Is it your testimony that from the neck down that is not Mr. Simpson's body portrayed in that picture?
MR. RE: Wait a second. You know, you're badgering him now. He told you several times he doesn't know whose body. Now you are asking him if he's saying it's not the body. He doesn't know whose body it is.
MR. KELLY: Mr. Re, I am not badgering him at all. He said that basically that it's not Mr. Simpson's body.
MR. RE: No, he didn't. He said, "I don't know whose body it is." He said it three times. I don't know how much more clear you can make it.
MR. KELLY: Well, I'm trying to make it just a little bit clearer.
Q: Is it your testimony that that does not appear to be Mr. Simpson's body?
A: I don't know whose body it is.
MR. LEONARD: I am going to object
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Does it appear to be Mr. Simpson's body?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I do not know whose body it is. It could be your body, for all I know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Well, you've known Mr. Simpson for about 40 years, haven't you?
A: That's right.
Q: Okay. And you know his build?
A: That's right.
Q: You know his physique?
A: Right.
Q: Does that appear to be his body, his physique, as you know it, as you sit here today, in that picture?
A: I do not know whose body that is.
Q: But you are not satisfied that that is Mr. Simpson's body in that picture.
A: I do not know whose body that is.
Q: Okay.
A: Anything with tabloids, I don't know.
Q: Going back to June 18th, 1994, Mr. Cowlings, could you tell me where you went after you had been booked and posted bail?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you remember being booked and then being released from the LAPD?
A: Yes.
Q: And was that in the early morning hours of June 18th, 1994?
A: I'm quite sure you got the record. Whatever time they released me, that's the time I left. Early morning.
Q: By the way, who posted bail for you?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you know how much your bail was?
A: They said something like 250,000.
Q: And you have no idea who posted that for you?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you have 250,000 at that time, Mr. Cowlings?
A: No.
Q: Did do you know who made the arrangements for that bail to be posted for you?
A: I spoke to my lawyer.
Q: Was that Mr. Re at the time?
A: He called me.
Q: And you never learned after the fact who had posted that bail for you?
A: I don't remember.
Q: And it's your testimony, as you sit here today, you don't know who put up a quarter million l dollars for you to be released from jail that day?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Don't remember.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. That was a rather memorable day for you, wasn't it, Mr. Cowlings?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
MR. RE: Assert a privilege about the date other than the fact you are talking about the release. Now you are going back into the day.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. After you had been released that day on the 18th, could you tell me where you first went?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you go home?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you go to Mr. Simpson's house?
A: No.
Q: Did you go to Mr. Shapiro's office?
A: No.
Q: Mr. Taft's office?
A: No.
Q: Do you know where you went that day?
A: Don't remember.
Q: What is your next recollection of where you might have been that day?
MR. PETROCELLI: For the record, what day is this?
MR. KELLY: June 18th.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: After you had been released on the 18th, could you tell me the next time or the first time you spoke to Mr. Shapiro?
A: I don't know exactly when I spoke with him or what day or but I did eventually speak with Bob Shapiro.
Q: Could you tell me approximately how many days after you had been released you first spoke to Mr. Shapiro?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Could you approximate for me?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you go to his office to speak to him?
MR. RE: Ever?
THE WITNESS: No. I went
MR. KELLY: Excuse me?
MR. RE: Ever?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Ever after June 18th, after you were released, did you ever go to Mr. Shapiro to speak to him at his office?
A: Yes, I had been to his office once.
Q: Could you tell me what month that was?
A: I don't remember the exact month.
Q: Was it June after your release?
A: I don't remember.
Q: How long were you at his office for?
A: 15, 20 minutes, I guess.
Q: Could you tell me what you spoke of about?
A: Not to talk to the media.
Q: Anything other than that in that 20 minutes?
A: I think I was asking him how O.J. was doing.
Q: And what did he tell you?
A: Said he was doing fine.
Q: Did you discuss the facts and circumstances surrounding Nicole's murder at all with him?
A: I don't remember that.
Q: Did you talk about any defense strategy with him or where he thought Mr. Simpson's case was going at that time?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Compound.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Prior to going to Mr. Shapiro's office, had you spoken to him by phone?
A: Yes. I think. I know I did. When I did, I don't remember. I remember him and I spoken, I think I told you last week, when we called some of Nicole's friends.
Q: Was this when he was trying to get Cici or Robin on conference calls?
A: I think he wanted to set up a meeting with them.
Q: Okay. Other than that conversation which you already testified to, did you have any other telephone conversations with Mr. Shapiro?
MR. LEONARD: During that time period, John? When are we talking about?
MR. KELLY: Any time after June 18th.
THE WITNESS: I know I met him at his house once.
BY MR. KELLY: When was that?
A: I couldn't give you a date, but it was over it was over a weekend. I remember it was I don't know if it was a Saturday or a Sunday.
Q: Was that during the trial?
A: No.
Q: Was it before the trial had started?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you recall what you spoke to him about at that time?
A: No.
Q: Did you speak to him at all regarding Mr. Simpson's being accused of this murder of Nicole? A: No.
Q: Had you been invited over by Mr. Shapiro?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me what month this was in?
A: No, I couldn't tell you.
Q: Could you tell me who else was there?
A: Just him and I.
Q: And how long were you there for?
A: For a while.
Q: More than 20 minutes?
A: Yes.
Q: More than an hour?
A: Could have been. A little less than an hour.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me in general terms what you and Mr. Shapiro spoke about that day?
A: We had lunch, and then he showed me a film of his boxing. He's a boxing fan, and he had sparred with the guy was a championship fighter, lightweight champion. Through some way he got he sparred with the guy for three rounds. The guy bit him on the shoulder or something like that.
Q: Bit Shapiro on the shoulder?
A: Yeah.
Q: I suppose this is why Mr. Shapiro had you over to lunch: To show you this film.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: He showed it to me. I don't know if that was his reason for having me come over there.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Was there anything else was there anything you discussed that day while you were over at Mr. Shapiro's house, Mr. Cowlings?
A: Well, I had known Bob before this case even started, so we probably talked about, you know, friends or whatever.
Q: So his inviting you had nothing to do with his representation of Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: He probably asked me something, but I don't remember what it was because, like I said, Bob and I have had a relationship before this thing happened.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: When was the first time after Strike that. Other than the one conversation you had with Marcus Allen out at Wayne Hughes' house, had you had any other conversation with Marcus Allen after June 17th or 18th after your release and before this conversation at Wayne Hughes' house?
A: We have spoken a few times since then.
Q: In between that time period?
A: After.
Q: Okay. Did you speak to Marcus Allen at any time after your release and before you saw him at Wayne Hughes' house?
A: Before my release?
Q: No. After your release but before you spoke to him at Wayne Hughes' house, had you spoken to him at all?
A: Before my release after my release
Q: Right.
A: Between the time I saw him
Q: Out by the corrals that day.
A: No.
Q: Was there anytime between June 13th and June 17th you spoke to Marcus Allen?
A: Marcus yes, he called me from he was vacationing somewhere.
Q: Okay. Do you recall which date that was?
A: I think he was I don't know exactly where. It could have been on an island or whatever. He had when he found out the news, he called me, what had happened.
Q: Could you tell me the substance of that conversation?
A: He was in shock.
Q: Did he ask you any questions about what had happened?
A: Yeah.
Q: Do you recall what he asked you?
A: "What happened?" How it happened, just it was he was just in total shock.
Q: What did you tell Marcus Allen had happened?
A: I didn't know any more than what had been said over the TV: That Nicole was dead, and later on I found out over the media that it was a second person.
Q: What did you tell Marcus Allen when he asked you how it had happened?
A: I don't think I knew at that time.
Q: Was this on June 13th you spoke to Marcus Allen?
A: I don't know when, if it was June 13 or the day after or it was it could have been June 13. Could have been that following day. I really don't remember.
Q: Did you discuss Mr. Simpson at all that time you had the discussion with Mr. Allen?
A: We could have. No, wait a minute. Hold it. Back up. No, I didn't talk to Marcus. No, I didn't talk to Marcus until some days after. Yeah, because now I remember, because I wasn't at home. There was no way I had there was no way he could have gotten in touch with me because I wasn't home, if he had called me, because I wasn't there.
Q: You were at the Browns' on the 13th.
A: Right.
Q: Okay.
A: And I wouldn't have had no way of getting in touch with him because I didn't know where he was.
Q: Would you tell me
A: I shouldn't say, "I didn't know where he was." I wouldn't have known how to get in touch with him where he was.
Q: Do you have a better read on this l conversation now you had with Marcus Allen?
A: I think eventually when I spoke with him, because from where he was, I guess the information they got was very little, and he asked me things that like I said, I didn't know no more than what had already had been said.
Q: Well, what did he ask you? You said he asked you "things." What did he ask you?
A: You know, that he had heard; he was very sad; he was shocked; you know, what happened. I told him I didn't know.
Q: Did he ask you if Simpson murdered Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did he ask you if Simpson had anything to do with Nicole's murder?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell Marcus that Simpson was a suspect at that time?
A: I don't remember if I did.
Q: When did you first find out that Simpson was a suspect to Nicole's murder?
A: Sometime during that week.
Q: It was before the 17th, wasn't it?
A: He had been questioned. I don't know if he was a suspect, but he had been questioned by the authorities.
Q: But in your mind he was a suspect, or from what you knew from news reports, he was a suspect during that week before the 17th?
A: No.
Q: Other than knowing he had been questioned by the authorities, what else had you heard that would cause you to think Mr. Simpson was a suspect that week?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. That misstates
MR. RE: I am going to ask him to invoke the privilege at that point.
MR. LEONARD: his testimony.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: When was the next time you spoke to Strike that question. Did you speak to Cathy Randa at any time between June 13th and 17th?
MR. RE: Same I am going to ask him to invoke the privilege. You just have to say "Privilege."
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. And could you tell me the first time you spoke to Mr. Simpson after you had arrived down at the Browns on June 13th,1994?
MR. RE: I am going to ask him to assert the privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. When was Did you speak to Bill Pavelick at any time between June 13th and June 17th
MR. RE: Same thing.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: 1994?
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever receive any money from Skip Taft at any time after June 17th, 1994?
MR. RE: We are talking about after June 17th?
MR. KELLY: 1994.
MR. RE: Okay.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever receive any money from Robert Kardashian any time after June 17th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever receive any money from Cathy Randa after June 17th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever receive any money from anybody after June 17th, 1994 on behalf of Mr. Simpson?
MR. RE: I don't even understand what that question means. What do you mean, "on behalf of Mr. Simpson"?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did someone give you money on to you on Mr. Simpson's behalf?
A: When?
MR. LEONARD: I am going to object to that as being vague.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: After June 17th, 1994.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Going back to the meeting you had had with Robin Greer a couple weeks after the murders in June of 1994, you remember we discussed that last week?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall again where the location of that meeting was?
A: It was in Brentwood, just east of 26th Street, right off of San Vicente.
Q: Was that the Brentwood Country Mart?
A: No. We I met her on the street. We I don't know if it was Bristol or Burlingame. It was one of the we just pulled to the curb. I just pulled to the side in front of a house, and we just talked.
Q: Okay. You never met her inside the or out front in the seating area of the Brentwood Country Mart?
MR. RE: Never? Or are you talking about that day?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: That day.
A: We could have met there. We could have eventually met there and then she got in the car we could have. I don't know. But we she was playing tennis that day or had a tennis lesson, and she was in the area, so we met.
Q: Now going back to the conversation you had with Robin Greer that day, did you ever in substance indicate to her that you had heard that Faye Resnick had wanted to open a coffee shop and needed money and may have borrowed it from a drug cartel?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever hear anything like that in June of 1994?
A: There were rumors going around. I don't know if it was Faye or Nicole and Faye were thinking about opening up a coffee shop or doing some type of business together. That was more or less hearsay, I guess.
Q: What about the part that Faye had borrowed money from a drug cartel to start a coffee shop?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: That I never heard.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You never heard that?
A: I never heard it.
Q: Who did you hear these rumors from about Faye and Nicole wanting to open a coffee shop?
A: I don't know if it was a coffee shop or some type of business. It was just I don't know, to be I don't know who said it. I remember hearing it. But like I say, it was secondhand stuff. It was like a lot of stuff that was flying around, so I l didn't give it too much thought.
Q: Did you ever have any discussion with Robin Greer about Nicole had been doing drug deals with Colombians?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever discuss with Robin Greer or any of Nicole's friends that Nicole had been hanging around Colombians in restaurants or nightclubs at all?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Did you ever indicate to anybody that you had heard Nicole had been hanging around Colombians in the Renaissance?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Never heard any rumor like that even?
A: Even to what?
Q: That Nicole had been hanging around in the Renaissance with Colombians.
A: I heard that she would go to the Renaissance. It was a popular night spot.
Q: And you never suggested to Robin Greer or any other friend of Nicole's that Nicole had been hanging around with Colombians and doing drug deals with them shortly before her death?
A: No. When I asked Robin, I wanted to know what type of people that they were hanging around or people were hanging around them, but I never specifically said they were drug dealers or she never said they were drug dealers.
Q: You never suggested she had been dealing with drug dealers, that Nicole had been dealing with drug dealers?
A: No.
Q: You never suggested, ever, that Nicole had been hanging around chug dealers at all?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever suggest to any of Nicole's friends that she had been doing drug deals, at all, shortly before her death?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask any of Nicole's friends when I say, "ask any of Nicole's friends," you testified last week as to these meetings you had with Cici and Cora and Robin and Christian Reichardt?
A: I didn't have a meeting with Christian.
Q: You spoke to him on the phone.
A: I spoke to him on the phone.
Q: Okay. Did you speak to any of these people about Nicole having any interaction with drug dealers shortly before her death?
A: No. I was trying to find out who the players were, what type of people that they were hanging out with.
Q: You weren't suggesting any people that Nicole was hanging out with, at all?
A: No. I just wanted to know who the players were.
Q: Did you ever hear at any time after Nicole's murder that she had ever been associating with any drug dealers shortly before her murder?
A: I would get letters in the mail, people would call my house, people I didn't know, and I would get letters in the mail suggesting that they knew of something about Nicole and what she was doing, parties they would run into her at. You know, I just shoved it off, just...
Q: Did you ever find one bit of concrete information that suggested Nicole Brown Simpson was associated with any drug dealers in the months before her murder?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Any time these people would call me and talk to me, I said, "Well, what you know, are you willing to speak to the investigators?"
And they say, "I don't want to get involved," so I just figured they were lying.
MR. RE: Are you talking about when you are talking about dealing with drug dealers, are you talking about dealing with drug dealers in drug deals, or are you talking about personal use of drugs?
MR. KELLY: Any of the above.
Q: Did you ever get any concrete information anywhere that Nicole was either buying drugs or even using drugs in the months before her death?
MR. LEONARD: I am going to object as being vague.
THE WITNESS: The only concrete thing that know pertaining to anything pertaining to drugs was Faye being...
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: In rehab?
A: In rehab.
Q: Other than Faye being in rehab, did you have any personal knowledge or even well, it will be called a compound question, so I'll break it down.
THE WITNESS: I've got it talk to you about that. Excuse us.
MR. KELLY: Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:53.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 11:01.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, excluding the period between June 13th and June 17th, did you ever receive or have any personal knowledge of Nicole ever using drugs in the months prior to her death?
MR. RE: Excluding the period from June 13th to June 17th.
THE WITNESS: Excluding
MR. RE: Excluding that, not counting that period.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Excluding that time period, did you ever receive any information as to Nicole hanging out with drug dealers or doing drug deals, at all, in the couple months before her death?
MR. LEONARD: Object to the compound nature of the question.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever talk to any of Nicole's friends about a jealous boyfriend possibly murdering her?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever receive any information as to a boyfriend or ex-boyfriend having possibly been involved in Nicole's murder?
A: Are you still talking about this time frame?
Q: Yeah, exclude the 13th through the 17th of June.
A: No.
Q: Did you receive any information within that time frame regarding a jealous boyfriend or ex-boyfriend who might have been involved in Nicole's murder?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: In the weeks after June 17th, 1994 this is after Mr. Simpson has been incarcerated and you've been released you indicated you were out trying to get a feel for what Nicole had been doing the months before her death?
A: I don't know if it was a feel for what Nicole was doing. I just wanted to know who were the players or people that maybe had they had been socializing with.
Q: Did you ever at any time after June 17th, 1994 receive any information or any suggestion as to someone other than Mr. Simpson being involved in Nicole's murder?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Compound.
THE WITNESS: I'd gotten, like I say, phone calls, letters making accusations about Ron Goldman. There was one lady who called me a number of times claiming that she was at a party with Nicole.
And so I said to her, I said, "Telling me doesn't do you any good. I'd be more than willing to put you in touch with the investigators or you could get in touch with the authorities," and she never would.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. You indicated you had spoken to Bill Pavelick on more than one occasion after June 17th, '94, had you not?
A: Yes, I did speak with the man.
Q: And you spoke to at least one other investigator who you at least were under the impression was working with Bob Bill Pavelick also, did you not?
A: Yes.
Q: And you spoke to Bob Shapiro on more than one occasion?
A: Yes.
Q: And you had been speaking to Mr. Simpson while he was incarcerated?
A: Not that often.
Q: But you did?
A: Yes.
Q: And you spoke to Skip Taft?
A: Yes.
Q: And as far as you knew, these people were dealing with Mr. Simpson regularly also, were they not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you ever receive any information yourself from any of these people as to who could possibly, possibly, be responsible for Nicole's murder other than Mr. Simpson?
MR. RE: Can I just clarify? Are you talking about directly from him as opposed to news reports to what they said? Because we could get through all the
MR. KELLY: I am not talking about news reports. I am talking about the people he had conversations with.
MR. RE: No, no. For example, if they went on the news and they said something, do you want him to relate what he heard them saying on the news about
MR. KELLY: Sure, anything.
MR. RE: My God, we could...
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: In your own mind as you sit here today, do you have any formulation of any possible suspect other than Mr. Simpson in the murder of Nicole?
A: Do I have my suspicions or my suspect? If I'd have known something, I probably would have came forward a long time ago. I don't know anything.
Q: Okay. Did you ever know anybody who was murdered by a Colombian?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Do you know anybody who had been threatened or assaulted for owing money on personal-use amounts of cocaine?
A: Have I do I?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: The first day of your testimony, you indicated you had a gut feeling that Simpson didn't kill Nicole. Remember stating that?
A: If that's in if it's there, yes, I've said it.
Q: Okay. Do you still have that gut feeling that Mr. Simpson didn't kill Nicole?
A: Yes.
MR. RE: I just want to make sure, because you slurred it. You said did not. Correct?
MR. KELLY: Did not.
THE WITNESS: Did not commit the murders.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Right.
A: Yes.
Q: You have that gut feeling as you sit here today?
A: Right, uh-huh.
Q: Did Simpson ever tell you that he did not kill Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: When was that?
MR. RE: Well, we will exclude the period?
MR. KELLY: I haven't excluded anything yet.
MR. RE: Okay. Well, then
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Mr. Simpson ever tell you after June 17th, 1994 that he did not kill Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: When was that?
A: I don't know when, but I remember him telling me.
Q: Do you know what month it was?
A: No, I don't know if it could have been the times that I would go down to visit him. I couldn't tell you, but I remember him telling me. I couldn't tell you where or, you know, what time or what month.
Q: Did you was that as a result of you asking him whether he killed Nicole?
A: I never asked O.J., did he kill Nicole.
Q: He just offered that he did not kill Nicole during the course of a conversation?
A: During the course of the conversation.
Q: Okay. Did Mr. Simpson ever discuss with you how bloody size 12 Bruno Magli footprints were left at Bundy the night of June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson ever discuss with you how drops of his blood were found at 875 South Bundy on June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson ever discuss with you how he had cut the middle finger on his left hand the night of June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson ever discuss with you how is blood had gotten on the back gate of Nicole's condo on the night of June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson ever discuss with you how Nicole and Ron Goldman's blood had gotten into his Bronco on the night of June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson ever discuss with you how an extra-large brown Isotoner glove with Nicole and Ron's blood had been found on his property the night of June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson ever discuss with you how his own blood had been found in his own foyer and driveway the early morning of June 13th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson ever discuss with you how Nicole and Ron Goldman's blood had been found on his socks in his room on June 13th,1994?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you ever discuss any of the evidence against Mr. Simpson with him in any of your discussions with him?
MR. RE: Excluding the period?
MR. KELLY: Excluding that period.
THE WITNESS: When I would go to visit, he would talk about the events that happened in the trial. I never questioned him on things. He would more or less talk about what happened or...
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: By the way, did he ever tell you what was he doing between 9:00 o'clock and 10:30 on June 12th, 1994?
MR. RE: Excluding the period?
MR. KELLY: Excluding the period.
MR. LEONARD: I am going to object. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Not that I remember.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever ask Mr. Simpson what he was doing between 9:00 and 10:30 p.m. on June 12th, 1994?
MR. RE: Excluding the period?
MR. KELLY: Excluding the period. Actually, strike that question.
Q: Did you ever discuss with Mr. Simpson what he was doing between 9:00 o'clock and 11:00 o'clock on June 12th, 1994?
MR. RE: Excluding the period?
MR. KELLY: Excluding the period for now.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever did you ever ask Simpson what he was doing between 9:00 o'clock and 11:00 o'clock p.m. on June 12th, 1994?
MR. RE: Excluding the period?
MR. KELLY: For now excluding the period.
THE WITNESS: Probably with him talking, not me asking, he probably told me.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What do you think he told you?
MR.LEONARD: Objection to what he thinks. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What do you recall him telling you?
MR. RE: Again, you are talking about personal conversations as opposed to, for example, listening to l his video that came out or something like that?
MR. KELLY: I am talking about conversations he had with Mr. Simpson.
THE WITNESS: Basically when O.J. talks, he just talks, you know. You just listen.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What did you listen to him talking about hen he would talk about the night of June 12th, 1994?
A: I don't remember in details.
Q: In general?
A: I couldn't answer that because I really don't remember exactly what he was telling me, you know, what he had did or what it was he was doing.
Q: Do you recall him telling you he had left the house at all between 9:00 and 11:00 p.m. that night of June 12th, 1 994?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You recall nothing of the conversation you had with Mr. Simpson regarding what he had done the evening of June 12th, 1994 between 9:00 and 11:00 p.m.?
A: No. I would just be speculating if I did.
Q: No recollection?
A: No recollection me personally.
Q: Any other way other than you personally?
A: Just, you know, the stuff that I've heard, you know, through telecasts or through his interview or things that Kato said what they did, but I don't remember him telling me.
Q: This is your closest friend as you sit here today, Mr. Simpson?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And he was accused of murdering one of your other closest friends, his ex-wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, on the night of June 12th, 1994. Correct?
A: Right.
Q: Did you ever ask Mr. Simpson what he was doing that night at the approximate time his ex-wife and one of your closest friends, Nicole Brown Simpson
A: You talking about the same two people. You said "ex-wife" and close
Q: That's right. That's right.
A: I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Q: Did you ever ask him what he was doing at the approximate time Nicole was murdered?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Like I just stated, he may have told me, but I don't know what he had said to me. I know what has been said by hisself through his interviews or through what Kato has said. I couldn't tell you if, you know am I making myself clear?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Not to me. I am asking you: What do you remember
A: I don't remember
Q: yourself your best friend telling you about what he was doing the night that his ex-wife was murdered? I would think of that as a rather significant question and answer in your mind, Mr. Cowlings.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
MR. RE: Is that last part part of the question?
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
MR. KELLY: No. It's a statement after the question.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
MR. KELLY: Trying to get an answer.
MR. RE: You got an answer.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You don't remember?
A: I don't remember.
Q: What did Katherine Allen, Marcus' wife, call you for a couple months ago? You indicated she had called you for information.
A: I didn't say she called me for information. She probably called me to say, you know, say hi. We're still friends.
Q: She didn't call you for any information?
A: No. Just, "How you doing?" She needed to find out something information on something else. It had nothing to do with this case or anybody in this case.
Q: Okay. By the way, did Marcus Allen ever deny he was having an affair with Nicole when you told him you knew about it?
A: Marcus didn't say.
Q: Did he ever deny he was having an affair with Nicole when you confronted him with it?
A: He never said. He just sloughed I mean, he just... He was sad, bothered, but he never said one way or another, and I wasn't looking for an answer.
Q: Did he ever deny he was having an affair with Nicole when you confronted him with it?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. KELLY: It's not answered.
THE WITNESS: He never said anything.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Do you know yourself when was the last time Marcus Allen saw Nicole prior to her murder?
MR. RE: Asking for his personal knowledge?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge of it.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Marcus Allen ever tell you when the last time he saw Nicole was prior to her murder?
A: No.
Q: Did anybody ever tell you when was the last time Marcus was with Nicole prior to her murder?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Marcus was with Nicole on either June 11th or June 12th, 1994?
MR. RE: Personal knowledge?
MR. KELLY: Personal knowledge.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did anybody ever tell you they knew that Marcus had been with Nicole on June 11th or June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Were you at Rockingham for Marcus Allen's wedding?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you in the wedding party?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember seeing Nicole there that day?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Nicole was there that day?
A: No.
Q: No, she was not there?
A: No, she wasn't there.
Q: Was she there at any time that day?
A: Not that I could remember.
Q: Okay. Do you know what year that wedding was?
A: I don't know. How long has Marcus been married? Three three years, four years? I don't l know. I don't know exactly.
MR. RE: Dan probably knows it.
MR. PETROCELLI: I do know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: At the time of Marcus' wedding, were Nicole and O.J. back together?
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay. By the way, we have been talking about your conversations you had with some of Nicole's friends after June 17th, 1994, when you talked to Cora and Cici and Robin and some other people. Did you yourself ever find out what Nicole had been doing the night of June 11th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Who she had been with?
A: No.
Q: What she was doing?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever find out what she had been doing the day of June 11th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: What about during the day of June 12th, 1994, did you ever find out what she was doing that day?
A: No.
Q: Ever find out who she was with?
A: No.
Q: Would you be able to tell me where Marcus Allen was the day of June 11th,1994?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: June 11th would have been what day?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Saturday, the day before the murders.
A: I was with him June 12th, early afternoon.
Q: With Marcus?
A: Yes.
Q: Where were you with him with at?
A: We he called me. We went he was thinking about buying a Hummer, one of those big four-wheel vehicles
Q: Okay.
A: and we drove out
Q: Where did he call you from? Do you know?
A: I guess from his house. I don't remember exactly. But he called, and I went and picked him up and we drove out to Thousand Oaks.
Q: What time of day was this that he called you?
A: I don't know. It could have been in the morning, late morning. We went out there in the afternoon.
Q: And do you recall approximately what time you got back?
A: Late afternoon. I had he had invited me for dinner with him and Katherine, and I was going to with that in hopes of me taking him and Katherine to the airport, but I had somewhere else to be Sunday night, so I wouldn't have been able to take them to the airport.
Q: Okay. He was going out of town Sunday night with his wife?
A: Yes. They were going on some type of vacation or some
Q: Did
A: I don't know if it was a sports sports type of celebrity thing. Something.
Q: Had Marcus told you what he had been doing the day before when you were with him that day?
A: No.
Q: Okay. On that day did Marcus ever discuss Nicole with you at all?
MR. LEONARD: You mean on the 12th?
THE WITNESS: On the 12th?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: On the 12th when you were with him.
A: No.
Q: At any time prior to June 12th, 1994, had Marcus ever discussed Nicole with you?
A: No.
Q: On June 12th or prior to that day did you have any knowledge of Marcus having an affair with l Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you ever find out that on June 11th, that Saturday night, the night before Nicole's murder, that Sydney, her daughter, had spent the night at Schwartz's house?
A: I've heard since then that Sydney had spent the night there.
Q: Did you ever find out where Nicole was that night, the night of June 11th,1994? A: No.
Q: No knowledge whatsoever?
A: No knowledge.
Q: By the way, at Rockingham, you are familiar with the security system there?
MR. LEONARD: Let me just pose a
MR. KELLY: Sure.
MR. LEONARD: At what time?
MR. KELLY: We will say in June of '94.
MR. LEONARD: June of '94. Okay. And I am objecting as vague as what you mean by "security system."
MR. KELLY: I'll go into it a little bit.
MR. LEONARD: Okay.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you know how the alarm was set at Rockingham in June of 1994, how to turn the alarm on?
A: Not at that time. The code had been changed. O.J. had the code changed.
Q: Did you have a key to the alarm system at that time?
A: There is no key to the alarm system.
Q: It requires a numerical code punched in to turn it on and turn it off?
A: Yes.
Q: And you did not have the code at that time?
A: Not the new code, no.
Q: Do you know who, if anybody, had the new code at that time?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Did you know Kato Kaelin prior to June 12th, 1994?
A: I knew him vaguely.
Q: And what did you understand his role to be over at Simpson's house?
MR. LEONARD: Objection to "role," to the characterization "role" as vague.
THE WITNESS: I really don't know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you speak to him at all?
A: Him and I would, you know, when I would go by there, if he happened to be there, we would just speak small talk. I didn't know Kato that well.
Q: Did Simpson tell you he ever spent any time with Kato?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Not that I remember.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Simpson ever tell you Kato was a close friend of his?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Not that I remember.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you know whether or not Kato had the code to the security system in June of 1994?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Was Simpson rather cautious in who he would give the alarm code to in June of or at any time that you knew him?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation. Vague.
THE WITNESS: Not that I know of.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well, was Mr. Simpson careful about putting on the alarm when he was going to be leaving the house vacant for any period of time?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation, calls for speculation, and it's vague.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, if he wasn't there, if nobody was there, if the maid and everybody was gone, he'd always put the alarm on.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Would it strike you as out of character for Mr. Simpson to give Kato Kaelin the code to his alarm system?
MR. LEONARD: Objection
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
MR. LEONARD: calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Do you know if Westec Security could be summoned directly from that security system in the Rockingham house?
A: If it's been times in the past where I may have tripped the alarm, and Westec I think would call first and then a patrol car would come out
Q: Do you know
A: or vice versa, one or the other, but they will respond.
Q: You had been there on occasions when Westec Security had been out to the Rockingham house?
A: Yeah. If I had to go by to check on the house and hit the code wrong or maybe got up one morning not knowing that I had the alarm on and opened the door, and it goes off.
Q: Do you know whether there was a panic button on that system where you could just hit a button on the keypad and a Westec Security person would come to Rockingham?
MR. LEONARD: At what point in time?
MR. KELLY: At any time, first of all.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Were you ever present there when Westec Security was arrived there with Nicole and Simpson there?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did Mr. Simpson ever tell you about a time he broke the windshield of a car that Nicole was sitting in at Rockingham?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you about a time or an incident where Mr. Simpson had shattered the windshield of a car she was sitting in when she was parked in the driveway at Rockingham?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever hear anything about that incident I've just mentioned?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Supposedly, I guess, in the media came said something about it.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Going back to the San Francisco 1979 incident we discussed before with the clothes being chucked out the window?
A: Yes.
Q: You described that as when you were sleeping at Simpson's condo that night and Nicole was there also. Do you remember that?
A: We all eventually went to bed.
Q: You were out in the living room, though, at one point?
A: Yeah, after I stayed out a little longer after the two of them retired.
Q: But the first time they retired, you were out in the living room, and Nicole and Simpson were in the bedroom with the door closed.
A: Yes.
Q: And at that time Nicole came out of the bedroom and was upset?
A: Seemed to be, yes.
Q: Okay. Had Simpson hit her prior to her coming out of the room?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Not that I know of.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. But Nicole was upset or appeared to be upset to you when she came out of the room?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
THE WITNESS: I could see that she was bothered by something.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: She was upset.
A: She was bothered.
Q: Do you recall testifying before that she was upset?
A: She was upset, bothered.
Q: Okay. Did you see any bruises on her?
A: No.
Q: Scratches on her?
A: No.
Q: Black eyes?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole tell you what had happened to upset her?
A: No.
Q: Was it true Nicole didn't even want to talk about it?
A: I asked her
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
THE WITNESS: I asked her, and she just shook her head.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Didn't say anything.
A: No
Q: And in fact on New Year's morning, 1989, when you first arrived at Rockingham in the early morning hours, Nicole was upset then also, wasn't she?
A: She was mad.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: She was mad.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Was she upset also?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: She was upset, but she was probably more mad than upset.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you see any bruises on her then?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. You went into this in detail, Mr. Kelly, I think more than once.
THE WITNESS: Like I said, I saw her face red. Looked like she had been flustered or like when she was mad.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. But at that time she didn't tell you what happened to her either, did she?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: No. No, she didn't.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And she didn't want to talk about it?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: After I asked her a few questions, she said, "A.C., I want to be left alone."
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. And after the '79 incident Simpson never told you what happened in the bedroom that night, did he, himself?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I think O.J. told me that it started the argument started because she accused him of buying a gift or something. I don't know exactly what.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: This is in '79?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And after the New Year's Day incident of '89, did Simpson ever tell you what had happened early that morning?
A: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Q: Yeah.
A: '79, disregard that. I mean, I was talking about '89. '89 was where he said that she had accused him of buying something for a girlfriend or buying something.
Q: Other than that, did he tell you anything else had happened physically between them in those early morning hours before you got there?
A: No.
Q: And in '79 when you asked him after the fact what had happened in the bedroom between he and Nicole before he threw the clothes out the window, did he tell you anything that had happened?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. That
THE WITNESS: I don't
MR. LEONARD: First of all, it's leading, and it mischaracterizes his earlier testimony.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember ever asking him what happened. Like I said, they retired that evening. When we all woke up the next morning, things seemed like they were back to normal.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Do you recall where Simpson would usually park his car outside his gates at Rockingham?
A: What car?
Q: Bronco.
MR. LEONARD: At what time period?
MR. KELLY: Well, whenever he had the Bronco.
Q: Do you recall what street you would usually see it parked on, if any?
A: Sometimes it'd be parked on the street. Sometimes it'd be parked inside.
Q: Was there any particular street he would park it on?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: No specific street. Wherever he felt comfortable in parking his car. As long as there was if it was on Rockingham or if it was on Ashford. BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And it's your testimony he used to park it on both those streets?
A: At times, yeah.
Q: Okay. By the way, how tall are you, Mr. Cowlings?
A: 6-5.
Q: And how much do you weigh?
A: About 255, 260.
Q: And how tall is Simpson?
A: About 6-1, 6-1-1/2.
Q: Do you know what he weighs?
A: In the 200 pound range, somewhere around there.
Q: Okay. Do you know how tall Nicole was?
A: Nicole could have been about 5-7, 5-8.
Q: Do you know approximately what she weighed?
A: No. 120,125.
Q: Okay. And you had indicated earlier that you loved Nicole?
A: Yes.
Q: Felt very protective of her?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You'd pretty much do anything for her?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And Nicole told you on New Year's Day, 1989 that Simpson had pulled her hair and hit her?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: No, she didn't tell me that. She didn't tell me about him pulling her hair.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: She never told you on New Year's Day, 1989 that Simpson had pulled her hair?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Never told you that.
A: No.
Q: Okay. She told you that Simpson hit her, didn't she?
A: She said she was hit.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did she tell you Simpson hit her?
A: She told me she was hit.
Q: By Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: She didn't say she just said, "I was hit."
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Mr. Cowlings, New Year's morning Nicole had been hit, according to her when you got there. Correct?
A: Right.
Q: Did you believe her when she told you she had been hit?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Were you so upset about the fact that she had been hit and her head was hurting that you skipped the Rose Bowl that day?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I skipped the Rose Bowl because I was concerned, and let her know that if she needed me, I was there for her.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And you were worried about her head hurting and feared she might even have a concussion?
A: When I went back that evening and she still said her head was hurting, I said, you know, "We should have it checked. You may have a concussion. "
Q: And you took her to the hospital?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever say anything to Mr. Simpson after that day about what had happened between him and Nicole?
A: I could have. Could have asked him, you know, what happened.
Q: Did you ever say anything to him about, "Why did you do that to Nicole?
A: I probably could have I probably said, "What happened?"
Q: Did you ever tell him not to do it again?
A: Not that I remember.
Q: Did you ever tell him, if he ever laid a hand on Nicole again, you'd kill him?
A: No.
Q: Nothing like that?
A: No.
Q: Nothing to the defense of Nicole after that warning?
A: No.
MR. RE: I am sorry. What was that last I didn't understand what you just said.
MR. LEONARD: Yeah, I didn't hear the question.
MR. RE: Nothing to what?
MR. KELLY: You can read it back.
(Record read as follows:
"Q. Nothing to the defense of Nicole after that warning?
A. No. )
MR. LEONARD: I am going to object as argumentative.
MR. RE: I don't even understand what that means.
THE WITNESS: I don't either.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You answered it, didn't you?
A: Well, I was on a roll.
Q: Yeah, say "no," huh? Didn't matter what the question was?
A: No. I justyou ran them close together.
Q: And you gave the same answer, "no," matter what the question was?
A: I probably won't make that mistake again.
Q: Okay. I am going to ask you if you You can mark this.
MR. PETROCELLI: Can I make a suggestion?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
MR. PETROCELLI: John, we can mark a xerox of that for the record, and we can hold onto the original to that photograph. We have done it with the others.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
MR. PETROCELLI: I will get copies made.
(plaintiffs' exhibit 178 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you recognize that picture, Mr. Cowlings?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recognize everybody in that photo also?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me who is in there?
A: Lou Brown, Nicole, O.J., Sydney, Arnelle, Judy, Minnie, Jason, myself, and I think that's Tanya between... It looks like Tanya between Jason and Minnie.
Q: And do you know you're in there also. Right?
A: Yeah, I said me.
Q: Okay. Do you know when that picture was taken?
MR. LEONARD: Did you say when?
MR. KELLY: When and where.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember where.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you recognize that as Hawaii at Christmastime 1988 when you went there?
A: I don't know for sure, to be honest with you.
Q: Do you know of any other vacation you took with the Browns where that might have been taken?
MR. LEONARD: I am just going to object. That assumes that that's a photograph taken on a vacation with the Browns.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
MR. LEONARD: But other than that, it's a great question.
MR. KELLY: Thanks. Was it the best of the day?
THE WITNESS: I really couldn't tell you, sir.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. No recollection of when that picture was taken.
A: Uh-uh, no.
Q: Okay. You had testified earlier that Simpson had told you about an incident at his house with Denise, Nicole and Ed McCabe? Do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: And Simpson had told you something had happened?
A: An argument started between discussion started between him and Denise.
Q: Did he tell why it started?
MR. LEONARD: I am just going to object. This has been gone into in detail.
MR. KEI LY: Well, I will change the question.
Q: Did you ever discuss this same incident with Denise Brown?
A: Not that I remember.
Q: Did you ever discuss it with Nicole?
A: Not that I remember.
Q: Did you ever discuss it with Ed McCabe?
A: Not that I remember.
Q: Was it your understanding this incident had occurred because Nicole was not allowed to smoke inside the house?
A: It was not that she was not allowed. O.J. just didn't allow smoking in his house, and Nicole smoked, and when she would smoke, she would always go outside to smoke.
Q: So it' was your understanding that Nicole, who lived in that house at Rockingham, was not allowed to smoke in that house?
A: No one was allowed to smoke in that house.
Q: But there was only one person who lived there other than Simpson. That was his wife, Nicole. Correct?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: People who would come by and smoked, and if the urge came upon them, they would O.J. would they asked, and O.J. said, "Well, I prefer if you, you know, would go outside to smoke because I don't allow smoking in the house."
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. These other people didn't live in that house, did they?
A: No. He did that on hopes of Nicole quitting smoking.
Q: Okay. By the way, Marquerite, Jason and Arnelle lived at Rockingham with Simpson before the divorce, did they not?
A: As far as I know, yes.
Q: And after the divorce Marquerite, Arnelle and Jason moved out of Rockingham and Simpson stayed?
A: No. I think they continued to live there.
Q: But after the divorce.
A: After the divorce they lived there.
Q: Marquerite, Arnelle and Jason?
A: Yes.
Q: For how long?
A: I think for a year. I think whatever the divorce procedures outlined, I think she stayed at the house. That was part of the agreement, I think.
Q: But after a certain period of time
A: A certain
Q: she and the kids had to move out?
A: Yes, eventually, yes.
Q: And Simpson kept the house.
A: Yes.
Q: And likewise, when Simpson divorced Nicole, is it your understanding that Nicole, Jason and Sydney left the house also?
A: Whatever his agreement was. I think O.J. had to buy Marquerite out of her portion or whatever the settlement called for. When Nicole moved, she moved to Gretna Green and the kids went with her.
Q: So Simpson had two wives and four children move out of Rockingham, but to this day he still owns Rockingham himself. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You saw Nicole the last couple months before her murder, didn't you?
A: I didn't see Nicole that much when she moved to Bundy. I had only been to her place maybe maybe three times at the most. I would see her Nicole would jog in the morning, her and Cora, so I would see her as I was either leaving my apartment or coming back to my apartment.
Q: Would she jog every morning, by the way?
A: She jogged an awful lot.
Q: Even in the last couple months before her murder, did you see her jogging often?
A: I don't remember, but I remember seeing Nicole jog a lot. She was, you know...
Q: Healthy?
A: Healthy.
Q: Would it be fair to say she was a fitness nut?
A: I don't know about a fitness nut, but she was Nicole had a nice shape. She took pride in her appearance.
Q: Was she careful about the food she ate even, her diet?
A: I guess. I mean, I didn't we never had a discussion on what she was eating. I remember I introduced her to her nutritionist, a gentleman a Dr. Antoine.
Q: When was that?
A: Years ago. Years ago. Because I had been going to him, and I was very successful in what I was trying to achieve as far as losing weight and all that, and so she wanted to meet with him.
Q: But you did see Nicole in the last couple months before her murder.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I can't I couldn't answer that question because I really don't know. I mean, I would I see her
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Let me say, did you see her at Mother's Day down at the Browns in May of 1994?
A: Yes. That I did, yes, yes.
Q: Okay. Did you happen to see her at all on her birthday?
A: I don't think so.
Q: Did you speak to her on her birthday?
A: I probably did, called her, wished her a happy birthday.
Q: Okay. Did you know she had been sick around that time also?
A: I remember O.J. telling me that she had
Q: Pneumonia?
A: pneumonia or the flu, and he was going by to see after her.
I went by one night. I had called O.J.'s house, and he wasn't in. I think I don't know if it was Michelle, if she was there or she said, "He's over at Nicole's." So I called there; he was there, so I went by and saw him and Nicole and the kids.
Q: Okay. In these times that you spoke to her or saw Nicole the last couple months before her death, did you see any signs of depression in her?
A: No. I saw Nicole one morning. I was coming back from working out, and it was the week or the day no it was the morning that she was going to Cabo with O.J.
Q: That was in April, wasn't it?
A: If that's if that's when they went. And she had rear-ended another car, an accident, fender bender. So as I walked I walked, and I said, "Nic," and she said, "Oh, you see," she says, "oh, I'm in a rush," blah, blah, blah. "O.J.'s waiting for me. We're going to Cabo."
She seemed to be very happy about that:, and her and the lady were exchanging insurance and license information because whatever time the flight was leaving late that morning to Cabo.
Q: Was this a weekday morning, as you recall it?
A: It could have been.
Q: Do you know what car that was that she had been driving?
A: It was her black jeep.
Q: Okay. Did you ever hear of any other accident Nicole had been involved in in the last year or two before her murder?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Not personal knowledge.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did she ever tell you about any?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Going back to the last couple months before Nicole's murder, you didn't see any signs of depression yourself, did you?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
THE WITNESS: No. One time I stopped by O.J.'s, and Nicole and him were there. They seemed to be very happy, and they were at that time making plans of her moving back.
I remember she was mad. She was mad at Kato. So while I was there, she picked up the phone no. He wasn't in. Kato wasn't there, he wasn't at home there at O.J.'s, and she said "He gotta get his freeloading ass out of here," or something like that, and she picked up the phone and called his machine and laid it in on him.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Were you there when she did that?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: Do you recall exactly what she said?
A: She had choice words. Like I said, she wanted him to get his ass out of there.
Q: Out of Rockingham?
A: Out of Rockingham.
MR. RE: I think you have a phone call to make, don't you?
MR. KELLY: Sound bite.
Q: Just very briefly, Mr. Cowlings, did you see any signs of depression or a change in her mood the last couple months in the times you saw her? Yes
MR. LEONARD: Objection
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: or no.
A: Not
MR. LEONARD: Let me get my objection in.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
MR. LEONARD: Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you see any signs of drug use in Nicole in the last couple months when you saw her?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Same objection.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you see any signs of her drinking or abusing alcohol the last couple months you saw her?
MR. LEONARD: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you see any signs that she had transformed into an aggressive, promiscuous woman in the last couple months of '94 before her murder?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Same objection, plus vague.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Any signs of any of these things in the last couple months before Nicole's murder?
MR. LEONARD: Same objections.
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. KELLY: Okay, let's take a brief break here.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
THE WITNESS: Making a phone call already?
MR. KELLY: Yeah, I've got to. New York time.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No l of Volume III. The time is approximately 11:48, and we are off the record. (Discussion held off the record ) (At the hour of 11:55 a.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:00 p.m.)
(At the hour of 1:15 p.m., the deposition of ALLEN COWLINGS was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 1:16. This is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume III.
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, going back to the morning of New Year's Day, 1989, okay, and the first time you had arrived at Rockingham after the call to Michelle, you indicated that you at one point saw Simpson leave the kitchen?
MR. LEONARD: I am just going to object because it mischaracterizes the testimony. You said, "the call to Michelle." You meant
MR. KELLY: From Michelle. I am sorry.
Q: You had gotten a call from Michelle, you came over to Rockingham, you were in the kitchen talking to Nicole, and Mr. Simpson had walked in the kitchen at one point. Is that correct?
A: What had happened, while Nicole and I was talking, when I was just standing there, I heard some noise, like just some faint noise, and I walked towards where I heard the noise, and it was from the kitchen to the dining room. Just as I got close to that door, O.J. was standing there.
Q: And after he was standing there, what, if anything, did he do?
MR. LEONARD: I am going to object because this has been asked and answered. It was went it was gone into in detail.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You can answer.
A: He wanted to talk to Nicole, and Nicole didn't want to hear what he wanted to talk about.
Q: And then what did Simpson do?
MR. LEONARD: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: She made a motion or she picked , up the phone to dial 911.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And what did Simpson do then?
A: Something about she going to call the police again, and he turned around and disappeared back into the darkness.
Q: Did he head toward the back end of the house at that point?
A: Seemed to me, yes. That's I didn't notice him going out going around and coming out the front door. I think he went out the back.
Q: Okay. And that was the last time you saw him before he called you from Schwartz's house?
A: I don't know if he called me or Alan called me. When I saw him later on that morning at Alan's house that's the last time I saw him.
Q: But what I am asking you is: The next I time you saw him after you saw him leaving toward the back of the house that morning, wasn't it your testimony that he then called you from Schwartz's an hour or two later?
A: I don't know if he called me or Alan called me, but I did go to Alan's house, and that's where he was.
Q: Okay. When you got there after the call from either Simpson or Schwartz that morning, can you tell me exactly what Simpson said to you when you got there that morning?
MR. LEONARD: I am going to object. This was asked at least once before. This has been asked and answered.
MR. KELLY: I will allow you to have a standing objection to every question I am going to ask now about New Year's morning of '89.
MR. RE: That doesn't bode well for where we're going into, I guess.
MR. KELLY: There's not going to be many.
THE WITNESS: He just babbled. He just talked. O.J. has a tendency when he talks, he just goes on and on and on and on.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Can you tell me specifically what he told you about Alan Schwartz's key and the bag of jewelry?
A: I think that came later on while I was there, that I think Alan knew I think Alan. was the one that told me that O.J. had lost the keys to his car, 'cause O.J. had gotten there by his own car but switched cars. He put his car in Alan's garage, and then he used Alan's car to I guess to go back up to the house later on early that morning. So I was asked to see if I could locate the keys and to get the jewelry out of the garbage can.
Q: Okay. What exactly did Simpson tell you about the keys and the jewelry and the garbage can? What instructions did he give you or directions did he give you?
A: The directions he gave me was the location of the jewelry, he knew for a fact. The keys, he just gave me his the
MR. RE: Route?
THE WITNESS: the route that he took getting back. The keys had to be somewhere along that route to get back to the car.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. I want to take those two things separately. First of all, can you tell me the exact, route you were given by Simpson in terms of where to locate the keys?
MR. LEONARD: Again, I am ,going to object. This was you had a diagram out. You had him go through it. I think you spent at least a half hour doing this. I don't know why we are going through this again, and I am going to object.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You may answer.
A: I just followed the path that when he left the house earlier that morning, how he went back to where he had parked Alan's car.
Q: What did he tell you he had done after he parked Alan's car?
A: I guess he I started from outside of the door of the back of his house and just followed the path similar to what he had told me: Across his tennis court, through the gate, through the Van Wattses' property to the fence and that's where I found the keys.
Q: Okay. And had he told you he had gone over the fence at Ashford to get to the car again?
MR. LEONARD: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's where I found them. I looked around like I say, when I jumped when I grabbed and I looked over to where he thought that he had jumped over the fence, I looked around in there, and the keys were wedged between the grass and the wall.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did he tell you how he had gotten onto the property after he had parked Alan Schwartz's car?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you whether or not he had jumped over the wall on Ashford to get onto the Van Wattses' property and then get into his property initially?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether he did or not?
MR. LEONARD: Lack of foundation
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. LEONARD: calling for speculation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Now, going to the jewelry bag, can you describe exactly where that was where you retrieved it from?
A: It was a house that was on Bristol. Could have been one it could have been two or three houses up from the corner of Ashford and Bristol on the west side of the street. It was I walked down the driveway and turned to my right, and there was a group of garbage cans.
Q: Is would you be able to, if I gave you a sheet of paper, be able to diagram the location of the house and driveway relative to the street corners?
A: I don't know.
Q: Could you give it a try for me, please?
A: I'll try.
Q: Okay.
MR. LEONARD: I am going to object to him trying. I think he is now speculating.
MR. KELLY: He is not speculating. He's trying.
Q: Would a map or anything help or
A: If you got a map, it'd probably be better.
Q: All I have is
A: That's the same one we used last time.
Q: Yeah, that's all I've got.
A: All right. It would have been
Q: Before we mark these, would a photograph like this
A: Let me see.
MR. PETROCELLI: You can't tell from those photographs.
MR. KELLY: Let's see if it helps at all in terms of
MR. LEONARD: What's the question?
MR. KELLY: The question is: Why are you standing up back there? No there isn't a question.
MR. LEONARD: I would like to see the photos.
THE WITNESS: No, I can't tell.
MR. KELLY: Help yourself.
THE WITNESS: I can't tell from these.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: If you could just diagram Ashford and Bristol and just generally indicate where Schwartz's car was and the house with the garbage cans, where the jewelry bag was.
MR. RE: You want him to do it on here (Indicating)?
THE WITNESS: Ashford well, you don't have this street out here (Indicating), Bristol. Ashford crosses Bristol.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay.
A: As has a wall here (Indicating). I went over, found the keys. Like I said, I think Alan's car was parked on Bristol or parked on Ashford.
Q: So as you faced
A: It's right by there's a white house right here on the corner (Indicating). It's a big white wall runs right here, (Indicating), and the car was either parked there or parked around. I don't know for sure (Indicating). Go ahead.
Q: If I might this would be Bristol here (Indicating)?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And this would be
A: The Van [sic] Watts.
Q: Ashford here (Indicating)?
A: Yes, it would be Ashford here (Indicating). This is Bristol (Indicating).
MR. KELLY: Is it all right if I label it? Do you have any objection to that, Mr. Re?
THE WITNESS: Go ahead.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Ashford. And you think this was Schwartz's car right here (Indicating)?
A: Either it was here (Indicating) or it was around the corner (Indicating).
Q: On Bristol.
A: On Bristol.
Q: Could you just mark for me where you think it was, approximately?
MR. RE: Is this supposed to be to scale?
MR. KELLY: No.
MR. RE: Because at this rate the Van whatever property is about an inch wide.
MR. KELLY: Well, for lack of a better word
MR. PETROCELLI: Pretty small house. Van Watts excuse me. Von Watts.
MR. KELLY: Von Watts.
THE WITNESS: Von Watts. I'm sorry. Von Watts.
MR. LEONARD: My objection is you're asking him to speculate. Go ahead.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay.
A: Like I said, it could have been the second house or it could have been the third house.
Q: If you made a left
A: If you made a left
Q: on Bristol
A: heading north
Q: Okay
A: it would have been the house it would have been on the west side of the street.
It could have been the second or the third house.
Q: When you say "The west side," would that be the left side of the street
A: Yes.
Q: as you faced up Bristol?
A: Right.
Q: So we are clear now, Schwartz's car was parked on Ashford facing west on the left-hand side of the street?
A: It could have been parked
Q: Or if you had made a left, it was on the left-hand side right around the corner on Bristol?
A: It was it had to be somewhere in here (Indicating), either
Q: Okay.
Q: facing it was facing south on Bristol or it was parked on Ashford facing west.
Q: Okay. Now, if you now, could you tell me, as you made a left on Bristol, how you got to the jewelry bag in the garbage can?
A: I walked.
Q: Okay. Tell me how far up it was Bristol after you made a left.
A: Could have been the second house they are big houses. Could have been the second it wasn't the first house.
Q: Okay.
A: That's the white house with the white wall. It either had to be the second or the third house. I don't know for sure.
Q: Okay. And is there a sidewalk on this street?
Did you have to walk along the sidewalk, or do you have to walk in the street?
A: I don't remember. I couldn't answer that.
Q: Okay. And when you got to the house, he had told you where the trash cans were? Did you make a left
A: No, he hadn't finished his question yet.
Q: I understood you
MR. LEONARD: I didn't know that Was that the end of a question?
MR. KELLY: No. I stopped because...
Q: As you walked up, as you made a left and headed up Bristol, how far up Bristol did you go before you stopped?
A: Not that far. It was shorter than halfway up the block.
Q: Okay. And to the best of your recollection, was it the second or third house?
A: Could have been either the second or the third house.
Q: And when you got to that particular house, what, if anything, did you do?
A: From what he had told me, I assumed that I was at the right house because I walked back of the drive I mean the driveway along the side of the house, and just as I gotten to like the backyard area, still cement I didn't have to crawl open any fence or gates or anything. It was just wide open as I got back there I saw the garbage cans, and I opened up the lid and there it was.
Q: So you had to walk up someone's driveway from the street
A: Yes.
Q: to get to the garbage cans. And could you just approximate the distance you had to walk from the street up the driveway to the garbage cans to get to them?
A: A few yards. Five yards.
Q: That's it?
A: Yeah, I guess.
Q: And the house and the garbage cans were next to the house?
A: Just as you got in the driveway, it kinda opened up to a larger area, and just as I turned looked to my right, the garbage cans were right there.
Q: Okay. And how many garbage cans were there?
A: I couldn't give you an exact number. It was more than two.
Q: And did you find the bag the first garbage can you opened?
A: I think so, yeah.
Q: And could you describe the size of the bag with the jewelry in it?
A:(Indicating). Probably the size of my hand, maybe a little larger. I don't know. I was able to pick it up with one hand and carry it in one hand.
Q: Okay. And it was a cloth bag of some sort?
A: Cloth, velvet, something like that.
Q: Okay. All right. Did Simpson tell you why he had left his car in Schwartz's garage when he went back to Rockingham?
A: Up until I got to Alan's that morning, that Alan told me, you know, O.J. had keys to his car or lost the keys to his car. I never asked.
Q: Okay. My question is: Did Simpson tell you why he had left his own car
A: No.
Q: is, Schwartz's garage?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson ever tell you why he had taken Schwartz's car back to Rockingham and not his own?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation
THE WITNESS: I found out later on that the police were looking for him.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did Simpson tell you why he parked Schwartz's car up the street on Ashford instead of in his own driveway?
A: No.
MR.LEONARD: Object.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Simpson tell you why he had gone over Von Watts' five-foot wall instead of using his own front gate?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson tell you why he had taken that black bag of jewelry from his house?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson tell you why he had hid that black bag in a neighbor's garbage can?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson tell you how he had dropped the keys to Alan Schwartz's car?
MR. LEONARD: Objection, lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Simpson tell you how he had done all these various things without the neighbors seeing or hearing him around his house at Rockingham?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation, and lack of foundation
THE WITNESS: No.
MR.LEONARD: assumes facts not in evidence.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Simpson tell you how he had gotten back in and out of Rockingham without Michelle, Arnelle, Ruth or Nicole seeing him?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did Simpson tell you why he had left Schwartz's house with Schwartz's car without telling Alan Schwartz?
MR.LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know anything about that.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. At any time after June 12th, 1994 okay? We are up to June 12th, 1994 now. Okay?
Did Simpson ever tell you how he had left Nicole's condo on 875 South Bundy without being seen or heard by the neighbors on the night of June 12th, 1994?
MR. RE: Wait a second. What is this, again?
MR.LEONARD: Objection.
MR.KELLY: This is June 12th, 1994.
MR.RE: Up until that time did he tell him what happened on
MR. KELLY: No.
Q: After on the night of June 12th did Simpson tell you anything about leaving the Bundy condo that night without being seen or heard by neighbors?
MR.LEONARD: Objection.
MR.RE: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I'm not clear whether you are posing a question about something that supposedly was told to him on June 12th or was told to him about something that happened on June 12th.
MR.KELLY: I'm posing a question to him about something he may have been told happened on June 12th.
MR. RE: Told at any time? In other words
MR. KELLY: Yes.
MR. RE: are you saying this had to be told to him on June 12th?
MR. KELLY: No.
MR. PETROCELLI: Obviously after June 12th.
MR. KELLY: After June 12th.
MR. PETROCELLI: Could not have been told before June 12th. Unless
MR. RE: No, but it sounded like you were saying, were you told on June 12th about this thing.
MR. KELLY: No, no. At any time after June 12th.
MR. RE: Were you told at any time after June 12th...
MR. KELLY: How Simpson may have left Nicole's condo at 875 South Bundy on the night of June 12th, 1994 without being seen or heard.
MR. LEONARD: Okay. I am going to object because it lacks foundation, calls for speculation, assumes facts not in evidence.
MR. RE: Let me tell you something: I don't think there is any possibility of an individual being able to answer that question.
MR. LEONARD: And it's vague.
MR. KELLY: Why is that?
MR. RE: Because it presumes that something was told to him without even asking him the question of whether anything like that was ever talked about.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Let me ask you: Did Simpson ever tell you that he was at Nicole's condo on the night of June 12th, 1994 and left there that night without being seen or heard by any neighbors?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
MR. RE: If you are asking whether he was told that during the period of time we have been excluding him excluding, then I will advise him to assert a privilege as to anything he may have been told during that period of time. If you want to ask him about some other time, that's fine.
MR. KELLY: Well, first of all, I will ask him during that period of time.
MR. LEONARD: I am going to object to lack of foundation.
MR. RE: We'll assert a privilege as to whatever he was told about anything during that period of time, without any assumption that he was told anything like that.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Well, I will ask him both ways then.
Q: Did Simpson ever tell you that he had left Nicole's condo at 875 South Bundy the night of June 12th, 1994 without being seen or heard by any neighbors? Did he ever tell you that?
MR. RE: And he has to assert a privilege to that.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did Simpson ever tell you at any time after June 12th, 1994 that he had left 875 South Bundy, Nicole's condo, that night without being seen or heard by Sydney or Justin?
MR. RE: You are assuming that including that same period?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
MR. RE: Okay. You are doing this clearly so that you can relate the fact that Mr. Cowlings asserted a privilege to this particular area, which is kind of useless because we have indicated to you he is going to assert a privilege with regard to coming by information during that period.
If you are not interested in whether he heard it at some other time, we will assert the privilege, so
MR. KELLY: Well, I am trying to do it both ways: Within that time period or at any time excluding that time period.
MR. LEONARD: Well, ask it that way then, John.
MR. BREWER: He did.
MR. KELLY: I thought I had.
MR. LEONARD: No, not the last question.
MR. KELLY: Could we have that last question read back again?
MR. RE: \Why don't you repose it so we don't have to have it read back.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: At any time these will be all at any time after June 12th, 1994 did Simpson tell you
MR. RE: See, this is what the problem is.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
MR. RE: Let me make a suggestion.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
MR. RE: You can ask the question any way you want, but this is the problem I am having.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
MR. RE: If you were to break it up to say during this particular period that we are excluding were you asked, he will assert a privilege, and then if you want to ask after that period of time were you told it, then he will be able to answer the question.
When you ask the question, "At any time," then he has to assert the privilege to it. It appears that he is asserting a privilege to a period of time
MR. KELLY: Okay. Well, that's fine because what you have suggested, I was doing just the opposite. I was going to come back then and ask about that specific period.
MR. RE: The problem we have is the privilege may be asserted then too broadly, because when you say "at any time"
MR. KELLY: Okay. That's fine. I still have to make my record, and you are more than welcome to assert it, and I will take your suggestion: I will ask it the opposite.
MR. RE: Okay.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: At any time between June 13th and June 17th, 1994 did Mr. Simpson ever tell you that he was able to leave 875 South Bundy the night of June 12th, 1994 without ever being seen or heard by any neighbors?
MR. RE: And because
MR. LEONARD: Let me object. I am going to object. Lack of foundation, and it assumes facts not in evidence.
MR. RE: And because we are asserting a privilege to that period of time, I am asking Mr. advising Mr. Cowlings to assert a privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. At any time after June 17th Or would you prefer June 18th?
MR. RE: I think June 18th is better than June 17th.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: On June 18th or any time thereafter, did Mr. Simpson ever I am sorry. Did you want to say something else?
MR. RE: (Shakes head.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. On June 18th or any time thereafter, did Mr. Simpson ever tell you how he had left 875 South Bundy the night of June 12th, 1994 without ever being seen or heard?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
MR. RE: Could you please ask him if he said anything about leaving? In other words, you are asking him, did he tell you how he left. That's the how you know, did he tell you he stopped beating his wife
MR. PETROCELLI: Suppose O.J. Simpson said, "Mr. Cowlings, let me tell you exactly how I did it"?
MR. RE: But isn't the
MR. PETROCELLI: That's what John's asking him.
MR. RE: The preliminary question is, did he tell you that he left? Then, did he tell you how he left?
MR. PETROCELLI: He doesn't have to ask it that way.
MR. KELLY: I don't have to ask it in the light most favorable to your client as he testifies, Mr. Re.
MR. RE: No, no, but you are asking the question is, did he tell you how he left, presupposes that he told him that he was there and left.
MR. PETROCELLI: He has objected on the grounds of lack of foundation, and if you're right, that objection will be sustained and this answer will be of no consequence.
MR. RE: Well, I want to make sure that he knows what he's being asked so that he knows what he's answering. If you want to ask it that way, I can't control it, but...
MR. KELLY: Could we have the last question read back again?
(Pending question read as follows:
"Q. Okay. On June 18th or any time thereafter, did Mr. Simpson ever tell you how he had left 875 South Bundy the night of June 12th, 1994 without ever being seen or heard?")
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Assumes facts not in evidence.
MR. RE: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. KELLY: That was pretty painless, wasn't it?
Q: Okay. Did he ever tell you that he had been over there at all that night?
MR. RE Again
MR. KELLY: On June 12th, 1994.
Q: Did he ever tell you between June 13th and June 17th, 1994 that he had been over at Nicole's condo the night of June 12th, 1994?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
MR. RE.: Because we are asserting a privilege to that time period, I advise him to assert the privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did he tell you any time on June 18th or thereafter that he had been over at Nicole's condo the night of June 12th, 1994?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
MR. RE: That was June 18th, did you say?
MR. KELLY: June 18th or any time thereafter.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did he ever tell you at any time on June 18th or thereafter that he had not been over at Nicole's condo the night of June 12th, 1994?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Never discussed it with you?
A: No.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson between June 13th and June 17th,1994 tell you that he had parked his Bronco on Rockingham that night of June 12th?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
MR. RE: What was the time period?
THE WITNESS: 13th through the 17th.
MR. KELLY: Just keep talking to him.
MR. PETROCELLI: I'm trying. I'm trying.
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
MR. BREWER: Ask him how his case is going.
MR. RE: Actually, what he wanted to point out to me is you snuck in a ringer where you said did he ever, which I assume was a follow-up to the preceding question, which is, I presume, the way he answered the question also. But go ahead.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, that now constitutes a blanket waiver, so
MR. KELLY: I've got a whole string of them for you now, Mr. Cowlings.
MR. BREWER: Come clean. Let's go.
MR. LEONARD: That's what I'm saying.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Mr. Simpson tell you between June 13th and June 17th, 1994 that he had parked his Bronco on Rockingham the night of June 12th, 1994?
MR. LEONARD: Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: At anytime on June 18th or thereafter did Mr. Simpson ever tell you that he had parked his Bronco on Rockingham the night of June 12th, 1994?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Now, hold it. Let me hear that question again, please.
(Pending question read.)
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. At any time between June 13th and June 17th, 1994, did Mr. Simpson ever tell you that he had jumped over his neighbor's fence onto his property behind his guesthouse?
MR. LEONARD: Objection lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Privilege?
A: Privilege.
Q: On June 18th or any time thereafter, did Mr. Simpson ever tell ,you that he had jumped over his neighbor's fence onto his property behind, the guesthouse on the night of June 12th, 1994?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
MR. RE: This is June 18th, you said?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. At any time between June 13th and June 17th, 1994 did Mr. Simpson ever tell you that he had dropped a glove on his property behind the guesthouse on the night of June 12th, 1994?
A: Privilege.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I'm sorry?
A: Privilege.
Q: Okay. On June 18th or any time thereafter, did Mr. Simpson ever tell you that he had dropped a glove on his property behind his guesthouse on the night of June 12th, 1994?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Between June 13th and June 17th, 1994 did Mr. Simpson ever tell you where he had disposed of clothes, Bruno Magli shoes and a knife the night of June 12th, 1994?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: On June 18th or anytime thereafter did Mr. Simpson ever tell you where he had disposed of clothes, Bruno Magli shoes and a knife the night of June 12th, 1994?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Never discussed it with him?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
MR. RE: Wait, wait, wait.
MR. LEONARD: Argumentative.
MR. KELLY: Except for the excluded time period.
MR. RE: He means in the
MR. KELLY: In fact, strike the question. Strike the question.
MR. RE: Thank you. We won one.
MR. KELLY: That's called a wash, Don. You didn't win it.
Q: At any time between June 13th and June 17th,1994 did Mr. Simpson ever ask you to retrieve any clothes, Bruno Magli shoes and a knife from anywhere that he had disposed of them on the night of June 12th, 1994?
A: Privilege.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: On June 18th or any time thereafter did Mr. Simpson ever discuss with you or ask you to I am sorry. Strike that question.
On June 18th or any time thereafter, did Mr. Simpson ever ask you to retrieve clothes, Bruno Magli shoes or a knife that he had disposed of on the night of June 12th, 1994?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Never.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. At any time after June 12th, 1994 Strike that. We will do it Mr. Re's way. At any time between June 13th and June 17th, 1994 did you ever tell anybody that in the early morning hours of New Year's Day, 1989 how Mr. Simpson had parked up the street from his house when he returned to the house that morning?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
MR. RE: I don't understand it, but I think he is going to assert a privilege.
THE WITNESS: Hold it. You said
MR.PETROCELLI: No. He said something about '89.
THE WITNESS: No. I think he started with '94. Can I have the question over again?
MR. KELLY: Yeah. In general terms I'm asking, in '94 if he related to anybody what had happened in '89.
MR. RE: In other words, in the excluded period did he ever tell anybody about the '89 incident?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
MR. RE: Okay. He's going to assert
MR. KELLY: That's generally. I am going to ask it a little more specifically, but that's just to let him know what I'm talking
MR. RE: He will assert a privilege to that.
He's asking about, did anybody tell you during the period of time that we are excluding, so you assert a privilege to that...
MR. KELLY: No. Did he ever tell anybody about this '89 incident of Simpson parking up the street, hiding the bag
MR. RE: You're asking
MR. KELLY: going over walls and everything else.
MR.RE: You are asking whether during the excluded period
MR. KELLY: Right.
MR. RE: he discussed that with he discussed the '89 incident with anyone?
MR. KELLY: Right.
MR. RE: So I am advising him to take a privilege with regard to whether he had any such conversations during that excluded period.
MR. KELLY: Okay. I will ask about four specific questions, but that's where we are with that.
Q: Between June 13th and June 17th,1994 did you ever tell anybody how in the early morning hours of New Year's Day, 1989 Mr. Simpson had parked a car up the street and gone back down to his property after the police had left there?
A: Privilege.
Q: Okay. Between June 13th
MR. RE: Let me refine that, because you did ask him questions that had to do with that time period in which Mr. Cowlings was speaking to the police who were up at Rockingham, and he has answered those questions. So if you want to ask him whether he discussed that with the police, we wouldn't be asserting a privilege to that.
MR. KELLY: Okay. I thought that fell within the 13th there.
MR. RE: No, but we have tried to narrow it down to not only the time frame, but also to whom he is talking, and as far as the conversations with the police that he has had during that period of time when they when he went up to Rockingham after being notified of the murders, we have allowed him to testify to that.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: When you talked to the police that early morning on June 13th, 1994
Do you recall when you arrived there and Fuhrman and Vannatter and Lange and Phillips were there?
A: Yes.
Q: did you ever tell them anything about what had happened at Rockingham early New Year's morning in 1989?
MR. LEONARD: I am going to object. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you ever tell anybody between the 13th and 17th of June, 1994 what Mr. Simpson had done in terms of his actions in getting on and off the property at Rockingham in the early morning hours of 1989?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Vague.
MR. RE: And I think this is the one he has already asserted the privilege to.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you ever tell anybody between June 13th and June 17th, 1994 about how Mr. Simpson in the early morning hours of 1989 New Year's Day had dropped keys going over a five-foot fence to get onto Von Watts' property?
Did you ever tell anybody about that incident between June 13th and June 17th?
A: Privilege.
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
MR. RE: But with the exception, you can ask him about telling the police on that morning that he arrived, if he did, and I think he has indicated he hasn't.
MR. KELLY: That's correct.
Q: You indicated that first morning you were there you never talked to the cops
MR. RE: About anything.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: about anything that happened in the New Year's morning of '89. Is that correct?
A: Correct.
Q: Now I am asking you, at any other time between June 13th and June 17th if you related to anybody this New Year's morning '89 incident where Simpson had hopped over Von Watts' five-foot wall, lost his keys, taken a jewelry bag, hid the jewelry bag in a neighbor's trash can and then gotten back to Schwartz's house in the early morning hours?
Did you ever talk to anybody about that between June 13th and June 17th, 1994?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: At any time on June 18th or thereafter, did you ever discuss with anybody Mr. Simpson's actions of that early morning hour on New Year's Day, 1989 where he had parked Mr. Schwartz's car up the street on Ashford, gone over the five-foot wall at Von Watts, dropped car keys, hid a black jewelry bag in someone else's trash can and then got back to Schwartz's house? Did you ever discuss that with anybody on June 18th or any time thereafter?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
MR. RE You are excluding any conversations he may have had with his counsel, I presume?
MR. KELLY: Yes.
MR. RE And you are excluding his having answered your questions?
MR. KELLY: Yes.
MR. RE Okay.
THE WITNESS: So I
MR. RE: Other than talking to me about it, if you did, or talking to them about it.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: So other than the testimony you've given, your sworn testimony here the last couple days, you've never discussed with anybody else what happened that early morning hour on New Year's Day, 1989?
MR. RE: With the potential of his lawyer
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. RE: being excluded?
MR. KELLY: Yes, of course.
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. KELLY: I hate to exclude you, Mr. Re, but
MR. RE: That's okay. I don't feel left out.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Never discussed it with anybody.
A: No.
Q: Never told anybody.
A: No.
Q: Okay. You had indicated that
MR. RE: And by the way, you do that. You say, "Never. "Never." I presume you are limiting those kinds of follow-ups as follow-ups to the preceding questions always.
MR. KELLY: Always to the preceding questions and always with the recognition you are excluding those dates.
MR. RE: Thank you.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: You indicated the other day that there came a time after June 13th at some point you had walked out back behind the guesthouse at Rockingham. Is that correct?
MR. RE: I'm sorry. The time on June 13th?
MR. KELLY: No. No. He said sometime after that. He wasn't able to set a date.
MR. RE: Are you talking about the time he went back with the investigator?
MR. KELLY: No. Before that he had gone back by himself.
MR. RE: Okay.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you recall that testimony?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you go there by yourself?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you see anybody else when you were back there?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk to anybody else while you were back there?
A: No.
Q: Did you go anywhere else back there besides behind the guesthouse?
A: I think I walked through the full length of the walkway to the it's a back area back there.
Q: Okay. Was there anything that you found back there during your own investigation that day?
MR. LEONARD: Object to the term "investigation."
THE WITNESS: Didn't find anything.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Didn't remove anything?
A: No.
Q: Okay. The other day you also indicated that when you went back there subsequently or afterwards with an investigator, you talked to him about the different ways to get onto the property?
A: Yeah. Not different ways, but it seems it would have been if O.J. did come that way, it would have been easier to come a different way.
Q: Well, what other ways are there onto the property?
A: Across his tennis court from his neighbor's house.
Q: Okay. If you were to Where is the front of That's Von Watts' property?
A: Yes.
Q: And where is the front of their house? Is that on Ashford?
A: No. It's on Bristol.
Q: Okay. And how would you get to the front of that house if you had parked your car at the gate at Rockingham?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: How would you get to where?
MR. LEONARD: Asks him to speculate.
THE WITNESS: To whose house?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: How would you get to Von Watts' house to come back through that way if you started at the front gate of the Rockingham entrance?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calling for speculation.
THE WITNESS: If you outside on Ashford, you'd walk down the street.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You'd have to walk down Ashford to there. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And could you tell me any other way onto the property?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: You asked me how to get from if you parked on Ashford, how to get to Von Watts' house?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well
MR. PETROCELLI: No. Rockingham, he said.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: If you park on Rockingham, the gate at Rockingham
A: Uh-huh.
Q: how would you be able to end up going through the tennis court of Von Watts to Simpson's house?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calling for speculation.
MR. RE: You are just asking him physically how you would
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
Q: Describe it. What would you do?
MR. RE: In other words, he is asking you how do you physically, geographically
THE WITNESS: On Rockingham, okay, if I come through O.J.'s gate and walked on the outside through his tennis court to the Von Wattses.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. But what if you had parked there and you wanted to get onto the property?
A: Onto?
Q: Simpson's property through Von Watts.
MR. LEONARD: I am sorry. Can you repeat the question?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Let me make it easy.
A: Go ahead.
Q: If you were to pull up and park on Rockingham at the gate to Mr. Simpson's house
A: Uh-huh.
Q: and you then wanted to get to the Von Watts property, to cut through to his house, you would have to walk down to the corner of Ashford, walk all the way up Ashford and turn right on Bristol and then come back through, would you not?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calling for speculation. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, or you could go through O.J.'s property.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Assuming you didn't want to go through the property and you wanted to come in some other way. That's what I am asking you.
A: Either
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: Either O.J.'s property or you walk down Ashford.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
MR. PETROCELLI: Can you move
THE WITNESS: Can you go this way (Indicating)? No, there's a
MR. LEONARD: Who's asking questions? Is that a question, Mr. Petrocelli?
MR. KELLY: That's a whisper. Those don't count.
MR. PETROCELLI: Since he's on the same point, I figured he might as well answer that question.
MR. LEONARD: Well, why don't we let Mr. Kelly ask the questions.
MR. PETROCELLI: Because he might not think of asking it.
MR. LEONARD: I can't imagine he wouldn't. Wait. Is there a question?
THE WITNESS: Go ahead.
MR. KELLY: Strike it. Strike it.
Q: You were having a discussion with the investigator as to why Mr. Simpson would have possibly come over the Cyclone fence behind the guesthouse. Is that correct?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Cyclone? What's a Cyclone?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Cyclone.
A: What's that? That's a western term?
Q: A metal Midwest. A metal fence. Right?
A: Wire fence?
Q: Wire fence.
A: Yeah.
Q: And then you said it didn't make sense because there are other ways that would be easier to get into the property. Correct?
A: Yeah, that's primarily the way. I used it
Q: But
A: Go ahead.
Q: But under the same circumstances, assuming Mr. Simpson had parked assuming now, the same discussion, he had parked his Bronco at the front gate of Rockingham on Rockingham, how would he have gotten to Von Watts' to come back through the tennis court?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: O.J. pulls up on Rockingham.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Right.
A: He gets on his own property to get to the Von Watts'. Is that what you're saying?
Q: No. I'm saying
A: Oh, how would he?
Q: To get to his property from Von Watts'.
A: If he's on Rockingham?
Q: If he parks his car there and he wants to, say, get in the front door without being seen from Ashford.
A: He'll walk down Ashford.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: He will walk down Ashford.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Right. He would have to walk down Ashford to Bristol. Correct?
A: Yeah. Or if he came through his gate, walk his own property, go across his tennis court into the Von Watts' and come back that way.
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I am asking you, assuming he didn't want to come in through his own gate for whatever reason, what his other alternatives would have been, Mr. Cowlings.
A: Ashford.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: He would have had to walk up Ashford to Bristol. Is that correct?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Same objection, and asked and answered probably seven times.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Now, what would be another option for getting on his property? You said there was a number of other ways he could have gotten on there besides coming over that metal fence. One is through Von Watts. Correct?
MR. LEONARD: Wait a minute. I am objecting to the first part of the question. Misstates his evidence.
MR. KELLY: Which part is misstated, Mr. Leonard?
MR. LEONARD: When you talk about a "number" of different ways.
MR. KELLY: I believe he said in his testimony there were several ways to get into his own property other than coming over that metal fence.
MR. LEONARD: In the context of what you've just talked about?
MR. KELLY: Sure. He's standing back there with the investigator, and he
MR. LEONARD: With that scenario, with the car parked on Rockingham, is that what you're saying?
MR. KELLY: Well, that's what I'm trying to establish, that there weren't too many different scenarios of how Mr. Simpson could have gotten in except coming over that fence, with that scenario.
MR. LEONARD: The assumption you are making in the beginning of your question, I object that it misstates his former testimony.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Let's see if we can make it simpler. Assuming you were parked at the Rockingham gate of the estate and there was someone else parked at the Ashford gate facing in towards the front door, can you tell me how you could get onto that property without being seen other than going over the fence behind the guesthouse?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: So now you're speaking of O.J.'s property, not speaking of Von Watts' property?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I am talking about any way he could have gotten onto his property
A: On his property.
Q: Yeah. with the car parked at Rockingham and someone at the Ashford gate looking in towards the front door.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation, Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: If it was O.J., he has a key that opens this gate (Indicating) to come onto his property.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: But that goes right up the driveway to the front door, does it not?
A: This driveway, yes, to the garage and to the front door.
Q: And if you are facing in from the Ashford gate, facing that way, you can see the front door and the driveway and the garage, can you not?
A: You can see the front of the house. You can see you can't actually see the front door.
Q: Okay. But you can see the front of the house and the garage area and driveway area, can you not?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Okay. If you didn't want to be seen in the front door area or the garage area or the driveway area, if you didn't want to be seen coming in what other way could you have gotten onto the property?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: That I don't know. You asking me something you want me to assume
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Yeah.
A: and I can't assume.
Q: Yeah.
A: All I know, there's a gate there (Indicating) that puts you on the driveway from off of Rockingham.
Q: Right.
A: There is another gate on Ashford. If that Ashford gate is blocked, like you said, with the driver, to get on if you parked here (Indicating), either you come through that gate.
Q: But you would be visible to someone at Ashford, coming through that gate, would you not?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: If he's looking in there, yes.
MR. LEONARD: Calls for speculation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. So how is there any other way he could get onto the property other then coming through the gate on Rockingham?
MR. RE: Except the Ashford gate, other than the Rockingham gate.
BY MR. KELLY: Rockingham gate.
MR. PETROCELLI: Without being seen.
MR. KELLY: Without being seen.
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation. Asked and answered. You are now badgering the witness.
MR. RE: And I have to ask you one thing because I'm not clear about part of this question: When you say, "any other way," you're comparing one way, as I understand it, as being near the air conditioner and coming around the front of the house? Is that what you're talking about?
Because if you are talking about that, somebody from Ashford theoretically could see, I guess, the driveway and the front of the house that way, too. So when you say "other way," I'm not sure what you are talking about, because you could be seen that way.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I will ask you something else: Were there back entrances to the house behind the guesthouse there?
A: No.
Q: There is no entrance to the garage back there that runs along that fence?
A: Are you speaking when you say the "back," I'm speaking all the way to the back. When you speak of the back, you
Q: This area behind the guesthouses here (Indicating).
A: Okay. That's the side of the house.
Q: On the side of the house are there any entrances in the house there?
A: To get into the house?
Q: Yes.
A: There's two.
Q: Which entrances are those?
A: Off the garage and off the maid's room.
Q: Okay. So if you were to come over the fence there and go into one of those entrances to the house, you could do that without being seen from the Ashford gate, could you not?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: Come over what fence?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: The fence behind the guesthouse.
MR. LEONARD: Same objection.
THE WITNESS: The fence that runs along the guesthouse on the side of the house? When you say "back," I'm thinking of the back.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I am talking about the fence that runs along the guesthouse. You could climb over the fence there and gain entry to the house without ever being seen from Ashford, can you not?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
MR.RE: When you say "you," you mean Mr. Cowlings? Is that what you're talking about?
MR. KELLY: I am sorry. What?
MR. RE: When you say "you," you mean Mr. Cowlings? Because there may be a key on the door. I don't know what you are asking him. I mean, is it physically possible to move from that back fence to the back door?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
Q: Is that, first of all?
A: That I don't know. I've never done it.
Q: Are there doors that you can walk in and out of the house and walk to the back gate there
A: Excuse me? You said what, sir?
Q: Are there doors that you can walk in- and outside of the house that run along that back
A: That side.
Q: passageway?
A: That side.
Q: Yeah.
A: That could put you on the side of the house?
Q: Right.
A. There's two doors, yes.
Q: There's two doors. So if someone were to come over that fence behind there where that passageway runs, they could gain entry to the house without being seen from the Ashford gate, could they not?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: They could come over that fence, yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And get into the house without being seen or visible from the Ashford gate.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Cowlings.
MR. RE: Ask the right question, get the right answer.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: On June 12th, 1994, could you tell me where you were that night between, say, 9:00 p.m. and 12:00 p.m.?
MR. RE: Now, he is happy to tell you. We are very concerned about the identities of these people becoming public. Is there any way I could give you their names
MR. KELLY: Let's go off the record for a minute.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:03.
(Discussion held off the record.)
(Plaintiffs' exhibit 179 was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 2:19.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, it's my understanding that you were at a party on the night of June 12th, 1994. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And could you tell me geographically approximately where this party was at?
A: Baldwin Hills, which is a suburb I'd say close to the Los Angeles Airport.
Q: And could you tell me approximately how many other people were at that party that night?
A: There was a number of people. I couldn't give you an exact number, but it was quite a few.
Q: More than 20?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And was there someone who went with you when you went to the party that night
A: No.
Q: in your car?
A: No.
Q: Okay. What vehicle did you drive to the party that night?
A: My car.
Q: Was that the white Bronco?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me at what time you went to the party that night?
A: Early evening.
Q: Can you give me an approximate hour?
A: No, I couldn't. Early.
Q: Was it after 6:00 o'clock?
A: I really couldn't tell you what time it was I went.
Q: Was it light or dark out?
A: It was late it was evening time, I guess. Could have been that gray period there where it was turning, you know, light to dark.
Q: Okay. And could you tell me how long you were at that party?
A: I was there for quite a while.
Q: Could you tell me what time you left there?
A: I don't know. 11:00, 11:30.
Q: Is that an approximation?
A: That's about the best I can remember. It was late.
Q: Are you certain it was after 11:00 p.m.?
A: Could have been. Could have been 11:30.
Q: Could it have been anytime earlier than 11:00 p.m.?
A: I don't know. I doubt it.
MR. RE: You are asking for his best recollection?
MR. KELLY: Yeah, his best recollection.
MR. RE: That's what he's saying.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, 11:00, 11:30.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Could it have been as early as 10:30 you left there?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: No, I don't think so.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You're certain it wasn't as early as 10:30?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what time it was. I know it was a school night, a Sunday night, and I went home. I couldn't tell you exactly what time.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me what time you arrived home?
A: No
Q: Could you tell me approximately what time you arrived home?
A: No.
Q: Did anybody ride home with you?
A: No.
Q: Did you drop anybody off on the way home?
A: No.
Q: Could you provide to me the names of the last people you spoke to before leaving that party?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall I am not asking you to give me the names on the record. Do you recall the names of the last people you spoke to or were with before leaving that party?
A: I don't know who I spoke to last.
Q: Okay. How many people, approximately, were at this party when you left there that night to come back home?
A: I couldn't tell you how many people were there. I don't know the exact number.
Q: Were there more than 20 people there when you left the party that night?
A: I really didn't notice.
Q: Was the party indoors or outdoors?
A: Indoors.
Q: Okay. Did you make any stops on the way home from that party to your residence?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a cellular phone in your car at that time?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you have a portable phone that you carried yourself at that time?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any means of communication in your car at that time?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you see anybody when you arrived home that evening from the party?
A: No.
Q: Could you provide me the name of anybody in your building or on the street or a neighbor or someone that could verify that you did arrive home that evening before midnight of June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did you call anybody on your telephone after you had gotten home that evening?
A: Not that I can remember.
Q: Did you receive any calls after you got home that evening?
A: Not that I can remember.
Q; Is there any way or can you give me the name of someone that could independently verify exactly when you left the party that night?
MR. LEONARD: Object to the compound nature of the question.
MR. RE: What was the question?
MR. KELLY: Could you read it back, please.
(Pending question read.)
MR. LEONARD: Object. Compound
MR. RE: He has indicated
MR. LEONARD: vague.
MR. RE: I'm sorry. He has indicated he is going to give you a list of names of people who were there. I think some of them can.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: And you drove directly from the party home that night of June 12th, 1994?
A: Yeah. Far as I can remember, yeah.
Q: No stops along the way?
A: Not that I can remember, no.
Q: Okay. Did you speak to anybody between the time you got home that night of June 12th, 1994 and when you received a call from Arnelle the next morning?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And could you tell me the route you took home from this party to get to where you lived?
A: 405 north to Sunset, Sunset west to the Palisades.
Q: You live in the Palisades?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you can't tell me exactly what time you got home that night?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And you can't tell me exactly what time you left the party that night?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. RE: You've already asked him that question.
THE WITNESS: I couldn't give you an exact, no.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
MR. RE: He has told you his best recollection: 11:00 or 11:30.
MR. KELLY: Excuse me one second.
Q: Since Mr. Simpson's release from prison, do you know of any affirmative steps he has taken to locate the real killers of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman?
A: No.
Q: Has he ever discussed that with you?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever heard him mention that he was going to conduct a search for the real killers after his release from prison?
A: Yes.
Q: But you have never discussed that search with him?
A: No.
Q: And you wouldn't be able to tell me anything he has done in an attempt to locate the real killers of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me anything more that you, yourself, Mr. Cowlings, have done to locate the real killers of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman other than those conversations you had with some of Nicole's friends approximately two weeks after their murders?
Q: No. Nothing else you've done?
A: No.
Q: By the way, as of June 12th, 1994, do you think Mr. Simpson was physically capable of killing Nicole?
A: No.
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You don't think he had the physical capability of killing Nicole?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You don't think he had the strength?
MR. LEONARD: for speculation. I'm sorry.
THE WITNESS: I know he didn't kill her.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Based on what?
A: That he didn't kill her.
Q: Do you have any factual basis for saying that Simpson did not kill Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Any evidence?
A: No.
Q: Any explanation for the blood evidence against him?
A: Don't know anything about the blood.
Q: You don't know anything about Ron and Nicole's blood found in his Bronco?
A: No.
Q: You don't know anything about his blood being at Bundy?
A: No.
Q: You don't know anything about
MR. RE: Wait a second. Wait, wait, wait. These questions are really confusing. When you say, "You don't know anything about" it, I mean, are you asking whether he has heard about news reports, or are you talking about whether he knows specific, or are you asking him whether he knows how it got there if it got there?
MR. PETROCELLI: Everything.
MR. RE: Well. I mean, everybody in the world has heard about the case, so
THE WITNESS: I have no personal knowledge.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: So other than the fact that you just don't think Simpson killed Nicole, you have no other basis for that statement?
A: No, I don't.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
BY MR. KELLY: Q: Would it be fair to say that that statement is based on the fact that Mr. Simpson is your best friend?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I have stated before, he has told me that he didn't commit the murders.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And when was that?
A: Since he's been out.
Q: Has he told you that more than once?
MR. RE: Well, wait a second. Excluding the period?
MR. KELLY: Well, he said, "Since he's been out," so that clearly excludes the period.
MR. RE: Well, but your question didn't. If your question is limited to since he's been out, I have no objection or no advice or nothing.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well, what exactly did he tell you since he's been out about how he didn't murder Nicole?
A: He didn't kill them.
Q: Is that all he said to you: He shrugged his shoulders and said he didn't kill her?
A: No, he didn't shrug his shoulders. He said he didn't kill them.
Q: Did he say anything before that or after that short sentence about whether he killed Nicole or not?
A: I don't remember.
Q: And you didn't ask anything else?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you ever set up a 900 phone number?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. What period of time did you set up that number?
A: Last year, I guess. Yeah, would have been last year. It was '95.
Q: Okay. And what was the purpose of that number?
A: I had been approached by various people. One thing led to another. The phone line at the time seemed like it was the most sane thing to do. People were approaching me, offering me great sums of money.
Q: Who had approached you?
A: It was a number of people.
Q: Can you name a couple for me, please?
A: Couldn't name them. There was a group out of Florida. There was a group that was corresponding with me through the mail and from the Midwest or back East somewhere.
MR. RE: Is this limited to just for the 900 number or people who approached him with a bunch of money?
MR. KELLY: Well, I digressed on my question. I had originally mentioned the 900 number, but he started talking about people that had offered him large sums of money, so I want to explore that a little bit.
THE WITNESS: The phone thing, people was offering, you know, things, you know, mentioned a great deal of money.
MR. RE: I have to remind A.C. then about the National Enquirer for a million dollars?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, the National Enquirer had offered me a great deal of money.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: National Enquirer offered you over a million dollars?
MR. RE: 1.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, $1 million.
BY MR. KELLY: For what?
A: For my story, I guess.
Q: Was it did it include the date of June 17th?
A: I never spoke to them.
Q: Okay. Did you ever read anything they had written you?
A: I used to throw it away.
Q: Okay. Did they offer you a million dollars in writing for your story?
A: There were notes and letters left at my house. I assume it was from them. It was their stationery.
Q: Okay. Other than the National Enquirer, who else offered you a substantial amount of money?
A: People from the people that approached me, the groups that would call me to about the 900 number.
Q: Okay. And what was set up for the 900 number?
A: My we set it up ourselves and
Q: Who is "we"?
A: My friend Mike Pulwer. We decided Mike literally told me, he says, "Why should we" you know, "If you're going to do this"without me knowing, he had investigated the 900 phone line business, and I said, you know, we could do it ourselves.
Q: And what did you do?
A: We set up the 900 number for people who wanted to know or had questions pertaining to O.J. and Nicole, nothing that it was gonna be trash or you know, they were going to get the truth, the facts from me about O.J. and Nicole.
Q: And were you going to speak to these people who called yourself?
A: I spoke to them, yes.
Q: And do you recall what month of last year this was set up? This was in '95?
A: Yeah. I don't know. We ran for I guess about I don't know. Ran for some months. We had recorded messages going there. I would go online hour a day, seven days a week, and answer the calls personally with the people.
Q: Did you keep the tape recordings of the taped messages you left on the 900 number?
A: No.
Q: Could you tell me if anybody did?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did
A: The phone service up in the phone service that handled it, it was BFD out of Vegas.
Q: I am sorry. BF-
A: BFD out of Las Vegas.
Q: B as in boy, F as in Frank, D as in dog
A: Yes.
Q: Service in Las Vegas?
A: Yes, that's the phone service.
Q: And did anybody speak on that line other than you? You mentioned your friend, who is your partner also?
A: No. Mike just he put you know, did he legwork and all that. No, just me.
Q: Okay. Did you ever discuss with anybody who called in the events between June 13th and June l7th?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever discuss the events of June 12th at all with anybody who called in?
A: Through the advice of my lawyer, and I was subpoenaed by the defense, and Ito's guidelines, we're not to discuss anything about the case, and so I didn't. So any time any people anybody who talked to me live would say something, I would tell them that I was unable talk about it; or if they asked about what procedures were going on in court, I told them I was unable to talk about it.
Q: So it was basically you discussing the relationship as you knew it between
A: O.J. :and Nicole.
Q: Nicole and Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And how much did you make ultimately from this endeavor?
A: We broke even.
Q: That's all?
A: Yeah.
Q: BFD would have the tapes that you made during this period of time?
A: I really don't know.
Q: Did you ever see the tapes yourself?
MR. RE: Excuse me. Are you thinking of videotapes?
MR. KELLY: As I understand it, they would have been audiotapes.
MR. RE: Audiotapes.
THE WITINESS: Oh, the audiotapes were done here not the audio yeah, the audio. I'm sorry. We did it at a sound studio over in Hollywood, where I would go in and answer a number of questions pertaining to the relationship between O.J. and Nicole, some of the other stuff personal about me, and those would go on the 900 number.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What was the name of the sound studio here that you'd go into?
A: I don't know. I'd have to find out. It was on Hollywood Boulevard no. Sunset. It was on Sunset Boulevard. I'd have to find out.
Q: Did you ever discuss the state of Nicole and Simpson's relationship in May of 1994, the month before the murders, or so?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you ever discuss the state of Nicole and Simpson's relationship in l992 during the time of their divorce?
A: Don't remember.
Q: Did you ever discuss the state of the relationship between Nicole and Simpson during 1993 when they got back together?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you ever discuss or tape-record, I should ask. Did you ever tape record any information , regarding the state of the relationship between Nicole and Simpson the last two weeks before Nicole's murder?
A: Did I tape?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Never discussed their relationship
A: No. You said did I "tape." No, I didn't tape.
Q: Did you tape any statement regarding their relationship the last two weeks?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether any of those audiotapes are still available from that studio?
A: I have no idea.
Q: When Simpson and Nicole got divorced in 1992, did you discuss the fact that he was getting divorced, with Simpson?
A: Did I discuss to who?
Q: With Simpson the fact that he
A: Did I discuss his divorce with him?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Not at all?
A: It was none of my business.
Q: Didn't talk to him about why he and Nicole were getting divorced?
A: Like anything, it came to an end.
Q: You never discussed with him why it came to an end?
A: It was none of my business.
Q: Did you ever discuss it with him?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever discuss with Nicole why she and Simpson were getting divorced?
A: No.
Q: She never told you?
A: They were divorced. She was living her life and he was living his.
Q: What I am asking you is: Did she ever tell you why she was getting divorced from him in '92?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson ever tell you whose idea it was to get divorced in 1992?
A: Not that I remember, no.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you whose idea it was to get divorced in 1992?
A: No.
Q: Were you aware of the fact that in approximately April 1993 Nicole and Simpson got back together?
A: I don't know if I did or not.
Q: Well, you knew at some point after they had gotten divorced, they got back together. Correct?
A: Yeah. Yes.
Q: Did Simpson ever tell you whose idea it was to get back together when they did?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you whose idea it was to get back together when they did?
A: No.
Q: Were you aware of the fact that in 1994, shortly before Nicole's murder, that she and Simpson had broken off their relationship again?
A: No. Like I said, prior to the fender bender that she had with her car, I was under the impression they were still together 'cause they were going to Cabo.
Q: But after Cabo you never had any discussions with Simpson regarding his relationship with Nicole from that day to the day of Nicole's murder?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Not that I could remember.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And between the day you saw her when she was getting ready to leave to Cabo and the day of her murder, did you ever discuss with Nicole the nature of her relationship with Mr. Simpson?
A: You said what? Let me hear that question again.
(Pending question read.)
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever discuss with her the fact that she was breaking off her relationship with Mr. Simpson at any time prior to her murder of June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: In all the years you had been around Simpson's house at Rockingham, have you ever seen him remove any pictures from the walls when he had gotten angry?
A: No
Q: Did you ever see him break any photographs?
A: No.
Q: Throw any photographs?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever help Nicole clean up any broken glass from framed photographs at Rockingham?
A: Not that I can remember.
Q: Nicole ever tell you that Simpson had smashed photographs at Rockingham?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you specifically recall any furniture hat Nicole had brought to Rockingham when she moved in there with Mr. Simpson?
A: No, I don't remember.
Q: Do you remember her having any particular desk she was attached to when she lived there?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you ever recall carrying a desk of Nicole's out of the house at Rockingham with Mr. Simpson at any time when Simpson was mad at Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Do you ever recall Jason carrying out a desk of Nicole's at Rockingham with Mr. Simpson when Simpson was mad at Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know anything about that.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Anybody ever tell you anything about that?
A: No.
Q: I think you had indicated earlier that you considered Nicole on the quiet side?
A: Yeah, when you know, when new people were around, you know, she was somewhat shy.
Q: She wouldn't get hysterical over small matters, would she?
A: Like what?
Q: I don't know. If someone made a footprint across the room or something, she wouldn't start screaming about it, would she, left dirt in the house?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't know anything about that.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you ever hear her scream?
A: Uh-huh. Yes.
Q: More than once?
A: I don't know.
Q: What is the one time you remember her screaming about?
A: She screamed at O.J.
Q: When was that?
A: It was during the time when they were haying their house redone, and nerves were on edge because of, you know, the construction was dragging.
Q: Not to interrupt, this is the time out by the jacuzzi when they were talking and Nicole started yelling?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you took Sydney in the house?
A: Yes.
Q: Other than that one time, do you know of any other time you heard Nicole yell at Simpson?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you ever hear Simpson yell at Nicole?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you ever hear him berate her?
A: What's "berate her"?
Q: Insult her.
MR. LEONARD: Well, I am just going Are you changing the question? Because I think those are two different things.
MR. KELLY: I did change the question here.
Q: Rather than berate her, did you ever hear Mr. Simpson insult Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever hear him make fun of her?
A: When you say "make fun," how?
Q: Well, mock her.
A: We all teased each other.
Q: Other than teasing her, did you ever hear him call her a fat pig?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever hear him call her a f------ a--h---?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever hear him use any vulgarity when speaking to her at all?
MR. LEONARD: In any context?
MR. KELLY: In an angry context.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you think you knew Nicole well enough to know when she was upset?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you think you knew Nicole well enough to know when she was frightened?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. I am going to ask you to listen to a tape right now. Okay?
THE REPORTER: Do you want me to
MR. KELLY: No, you don't have to write it. Just
MR. PETROCELLI: Just put "Tape played."
MR. KELLY: Just put "Tape played." (Whereupon an audiotape was played.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, did you recognize Nicole's voice on that tape?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you recognize Simpson's voice on that tape?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Simpson sound angry to you on that tape?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you ever heard Simpson scream at Nicole that way ever before?
A: No.
Q: Had you ever heard Simpson use profanity like that in speaking to Nicole before?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole sound upset to you on that tape?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Nicole sound frightened to you on that tape?
A: The second at the beginning she sounded frightened.
Q: Okay. Moving to May 1994 are you with me?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. do you recall being at the Browns' house in Laguna on Mother's Day?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And that was a Sunday?
A: If it fell on Sunday, yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall how you got down there that day?
A: I was there the night before. I think I went out, went to a couple clubs down there and stayed over, and I called
Q: Where did you stay, by the way?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You didn't stay with Simpson, did you?
A: No.
Q: Okay.
A: I called over to the Browns I think earlier that week. Between either O.J. and Nicole, they had said they were going to be in Laguna for the weekend, so since I was down there, I said, "Well,, let me run by to see them."
I called Judy. Judy said they were over at the over at their condo. So I I don't know if I drove over there or if I called first, but I did go over to their condo over by the Ritz Carlton.
Q: Okay. Were they there when you got there?
A: When I got there, Nicole was there. O.J. wasn't.
Q: Did you have a conversation with Nicole at that time?
A: Yeah, briefly. She said O.J. had gone out. He was in the car. That's what she said. I think he went to go get some went to get a newspaper or some juice or something. So I called him in the car, let him know I was out there, and he said he was on his way home.
Q: Did Nicole say anything to you about any fight they may have had the night before?
A: No.
Q: Did she seem upset in any way?
A: No. She was straightening up around there, and we were going to wait for O.J. and go over to her parents' house.
Q: And did you do that?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. Was that in the morning of Mother's Day that you went over to the Browns?
A: I guess, late morning.
Q: Okay. And do you recall spending the entire day at the Browns that day?
A: I didn't stay there that long. I left after, I don't know, 45 minutes or so, came I drove back up to Los Angeles.
Q: You were only at the Browns for about 45 minutes that day?
A: I wasn't there that long.
Q: Okay. Do you recall talking to Simpson t at all that day regarding his relationship with Nicole?
A: We had a conver- he had a conversation.
Q: One-sided?
A: Just listen when O.J. talks. It's like you he talks.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me what he said that day?
A: Basically he said that it was over between him and Nicole and that basically that was it.
And I said something to the effect, "Well, O.J., at least you know now that, you know, you gave it, you know, your best. Hey, you know, now you two can get on with your lives."
Q: Did he appear to be upset to you when he was talking about it?
A: No. We were just, you know, just talking.
Q: Did he tell you who had ended it between them, whether it was he or Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did he tell you when it had ended?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you how it had ended?
A: No.
Q: Did he indicate to you that this was going to be a final breakup between he and Nicole?
A: He said I mean, you know, it's
Q: He said what?
A: He said it was over. I've heard that before.
Q: Prior to him telling you that at the Browns, had Nicole said anything to you about it being over earlier that day when you saw her?
A: No, Nicole wasn't talking. She didn't talk that much. We made a joke when he got back. It was something I moved a barbecue cooker or whatever you call those things, and some ashes from it fell on the floor as I was taking it to the deck off the kitchen, and O.J. says something, "Nic, A.C.'s made a mess."
And I said, "Nic, nothing has changed." Because when I used to move stuff, my hands, I'd be sweating, and sweat would get on the wall. I got mattresses, and he's sitting down or something like that; he'll say, "Nic, A.C. is messing up the wall," or something like that.
So I said, "Nothing has changed," and Nic and I and O.J. just hugged because that remind us of other times.
Then once she cleaned that up, we got in the car and drove over to the Browns. Well, they got in their car yeah, I guess they drove together. I had my car. I met them over at the Browns.
Q: Okay. After you got to Browns, did you see Nicole leave at all while you were there?
A: Not that I remember.
Q: Okay. When was the next time you talked to Simpson after that day at the Browns?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you recall when the next time you talked to Nicole was after that day at the Browns?
A: Don't remember.
Q: Did you did Simpson tell you that he had had a fight the night before with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: He didn't tell you that it was over because of a fight they had had the night before?
A: He just said it was over. He said that, you know, that it just wasn't going on anymore.
Q: And you indicated Nicole was very quiet that morning?
A: Yeah, she was quiet.
Q: Okay. And she had been quiet in '79 when she walked out of that bedroom after Simpson had thrown her clothes out the bedroom also, wasn't she?
MR. LEONARD: Object. Asked and answered twice.
THE WITNESS: Like that New Year's Day I mean, her and I had small talk. It wasn't like she wasn't talking. You know, her and I had small talk before O.J. got back, and she asked me what I did the night before, and I said I was out to a few clubs around the area, and I don't know if she said they went out to dinner or went for drinks or whatever. I don't know, but
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you remember her saying they had been out to Brios the night before?
A: I don't know. I assume that they went out. She didn't go into details. You know, it was just small talk, nothing that significant, you know, in the conversation.
Q: Were the kids there at that time?
A: No, no, the kids wasn't there.
Q: They definitely weren't there?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether you spoke to Nicole at all between that day and her birthday, which would have been May 19th?
A: I could have. She you know, I would call her. If I wasn't, you know, by her house or wasn't something at O.J.'s house for her or whatever like what or somebody called and said, "We gonna have something for Nicole," normally her and I you know, I would call her to wish her a happy birthday. Vice versa, on my birthday she'll call. So I don't know if I did or not, to be honest with you.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me when at all you spoke to Nicole after May 8th and prior to her murder?
A: I got a phone call one...
Q: You can yeah, go on.
A: I probably was talking to her. There was one time I remember. It was the day of the earthquake. I was seeing after Marcus' house, seeing what damages were done, and when I got home...
Q: I am asking you about May now.
A: You asked me when I talked to her again.
Q: Yeah.
A: You said from May until
Q: And there was an earthquake in May of '94?
A: It wasn't an earthquake. I'm trying to tell you when I saw her.
Q: Okay.
A: When I got home there was a message from Faye and a message from Nicole. Nicole was wanted me to come by. She was scared. The kids wasn't the kids were in Laguna. So I drove by her place
A: Her place at Bundy?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: And she was there, and she was saying how frightened she was because, you know, the kids were down in Laguna, and she didn't want to she didn't want to ride on the freeways. She wanted to know if I knew of a way of getting to Laguna without getting on the freeways, and I said
Q: Did you?
A: No, not really. You could go the back way of beach cities south, and eventually you got to get back on, you know, on the freeway.
So I took her as far as Hermosa Beach. She followed me. And I told her, I said no. She was concerned about overpass. That's what she was concerned about, on the freeways. So I took her as far as I thought that I took her to Hermosa Beach.
Q: Wasn't the earthquake in January of 1994?
A: I don't know when it was. Was that when it was?
MR. PETROCELLI: 17th. January 17th.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. I am asking you for a time
A: I'm getting all well
Q: Want to take a break for a minute?
A: No. I'm fine.
Q: Okay.
A: Then it was probably before then. Then I don't remember talking to her, anything that sticks out. Maybe I had. Maybe I didn't. I really don't know.
Q: Nothing between Mother's Day and the day she was murdered?
A: That could have been the time when I went by that night and O.J. and her could have been that time she was sick.
Q: Did you go by there one night when Simpson was there
A: Yeah.
Q: when she was sick?
A: No, no, I don't know if she was sick or not. I went by to see him and her because I hadn't seen either one of them in a long time, and I went by and they were up in the bedroom. He was laying across the bed. The kids were on the bed with them, and Nic was they were just one big, happy family.
Q: And this was at Rockingham?
A: No. This was on Bundy.
Q: This was at Bundy? And was this after Mother's Day?
A: It could have been after Mother's Day.
Q: Do you know whether it was before or after her birthday?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you know whether she was still sick at that time or not?
A: I don't know. She didn't appear no. She was up and about.
Q: Okay. Were you aware that Mr. Simpson had had a fund-raiser for Justin's school at his house in May of that year?
A: There was something going on. I went by there. I didn't know what it was, but I went by one day and I saw a lot of kids, so I just assumed that it was that time of the year when they would have this event for Justy's Sunshine whatever the name of the school is. They hosted that thing a couple times.
Q: Was the night that you went by Bundy and saw Simpson over there with Nicole and the kids did it happen to be that same night to the day they had had the fund-raiser?
A: I don't know. I don't think so. I can't put them both together. I couldn't give you an honest answer.
Q: Okay. But to the best of your recollection, you had seen them together once after Mother's Day in May of 1994?
A: That could have been after Mother's Day or it could have been before Mother's Day. I can't give you
Q: Oh, you're not certain about that, even?
A: I couldn't give you, you know it could have been after.
Q: Okay. But on Mother's Day, May 8th, 1994, Simpson had told you he and Nicole were through. Correct?
A: Yeah, he said it was over.
Q: Okay. And to the best of your recollection, you were over at Bundy at least once after that and Simpson was over there up in the bedroom with Nicole and the kids?
A: Could have been. It could have been that time.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether it was could have been before or after May 22nd?
A: I couldn't give you that. No, I wouldn't know.
Q: Okay. Did you ever talk to Simpson about an incident where Nicole returned a bracelet to him that he had given her for her birthday?
A: No.
Q: Never?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever talk to Nicole about such an incident?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever talk to Simpson about an incident where he had taken back diamond earrings he had given Nicole previously?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole ever talk to you about an incident like that?
A: No.
Q: Could you tell me whether there came a time in late May that you drove Sydney and Justin down to Palm Springs to be with Mr. Simpson?
A: I did drive them down. I don't know exactly it was during it would have had to be during the season, the season of Palm Springs, so it had to have been before December, before the season's over. Palm Springs is seasonal for people who wants to take advantage of the months there, because it gets too hot during the summer months.
Q: Do you recall what month that was you drove Sydney and Justin down to Palm Springs?
A: No, I couldn't give you a definite month.
Q: Do you recall it being over the Memorial Day weekend, the end of May, 1994?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asking him to speculate.
THE WITNESS: I don't know for sure.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me how long before approximately how long before Nicole's murder was that you drove the kids down to Palm Springs?
A: I couldn't tell you.
Q: Do you recall seeing Simpson down in Palm Springs?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you recall who, if anybody, was with him at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Who was?
A: Marcus and Katherine and Paula.
Q: Okay. And do you recall seeing anybody else down there with them?
A: It was a golf tournament, I think.
Q: See Allen Austin down there?
A: No, I don't remember if I saw Allen or not.
Q: Did you stay overnight down there?
A: No, I came back.
Q: Did you leave the children there?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you pick them up then and bring them home also?
A: No. They came back with O.J., I guess.
Q: Okay. Did you ever talk to Simpson after that day and before Nicole's murder, at all?
A: After that Palm Springs trip?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yeah.
Q: Did he ever tell you about having any sort of fight with Paula that weekend he was in Palm Springs?
A: Not that I remember.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me the last time prior to Nicole's murder you talked to Simpson?
A: The one time that stands out in my mind was I was back East the week of that week before the 12th. I was scheduled to come back on a Wednesday. I think I talked to O.J. on a Tuesday. I said, "Hey, man." I had called him because I hadn't spoken with him.
And he said, "I'm coming back to New York. "
And I said, "When?" I said, "I'm back here now."
THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. I'm losing who is saying these. Could you
THE WITNESS: I'm in New York. I called O.J., and he didn't I don't know if he knew I was in New York. Anyway, he said he was coming to New York. I said, "Well, I'm here now, but I gotta come back."
He says, "I gotta come in and I gotta be here for a couple days, and I gotta get back to the West Coast because of some event for Sydney."
So I said, "Well, if you coming back, why don't we have dinner either Friday or Saturday?"
He said, "Okay." He says, "Let's make sure we talk when we get back" "when I get back Friday."
So I said "Okay," but him and I never made contact.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Would you be able to tell me when you had spoken to him prior to this conversation you just told me about?
A: No, I couldn't tell you.
Q: Okay. Mr. Cowlings, did Simpson ever tell you that he was sending a letter to Nicole regarding the IRS?
A: No.
Q: He never discussed that with you?
A: No.
Q: Has he to this day ever discussed a letter he sent to Nicole about the IRS?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you that Simpson had sent her a letter regarding the IRS?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you Simpson was threatening to have her and the kids thrown out of the house at Bundy?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: I just want to get an objection. Lack of foundation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Simpson ever tell you he wanted to see Nicole and the kids thrown out of the house at Bundy?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Have you ever discussed that type of situation with anybody?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Vague.
THE WITNESS: What situation?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: The fact that because of or due to IRS problems, Nicole would have to vacate the house at Bundy.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Not in those words. It was mentioned to me that he sent a letter to her.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Who mentioned that to you?
A: Judy Brown.
Q: When did she mention that to you?
MR. RE: If it's during that period...
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Other than the period between June l3th and June 17th, 1994, did Judy Brown ever discuss with you the fact that Simpson had sent a threatening IRS letter to Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
MR. RE: You say "threatening IRS letter." You mean a letter on the topic that you have talked about previously?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
MR. RE: Okay. Now he is talking about, other than that period of time, did you talk to Judy Brown? Okay?
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. RE: Can we just have could we just take we don't even have to go off the record. Just two seconds, let me take him out on in the hallway?
MR. KELLY: I want to make a quick call, too, because we are going to there and get finished, so this a good time to stop. Two minutes.
MR. RE: We don't want you to stop.
THE WITNESS: Let's keep going.
MR. KELLY: I just want to call New York.
THE WITNESS: We don't want you to call New York. Keep your ass right there.
MR. RE: You know something? They can run to the show tonight without you.
MR. KELLY: Enough of the show stuff. I want to call New York.
MR.LEONARD: We are on the record, by the way.
MR. KELLY: Go off.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 2 of Volume III. The time is approximately 3:20, and we are off the record.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 3:26. This is the beginning of tape No. 3 of Volume III.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, do you recall Mr. Simpson ever owning a Rolls-Royce?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall what the license plate was on that Rolls-Royce?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did Mr. Simpson ever make any efforts to avoid the public attention?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what you mean by that.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I mean, did he mind the public attention he'd get in public places?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calling for speculation.
THE WITNESS: The majority of the time he accepted. Other times he would try to avoid it.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: In what way?
A: If it meant the privacy of him and his family.
Q: And how would he avoid that?
A: You know, try not to draw attention to hisself.
(Discussion held off the record.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Simpson wear a disguise of any sort?
A: I've seen him, you know, in roles that he played.
Q: Other than roles he played in his acting career, did you ever see Mr. Simpson wear a disguise?
A: Not that I can remember. You mean Halloween or anything like that?
Q: I'm sorry?
A: Halloween?
Q: Excluding Halloween also, did you ever see him wear a fake beard?
A: Not that I can remember.
Q: Fake mustache?
A: Not that I can remember.
Q: A mask?
A: Not that I can remember.
Q: Okay. I had asked you earlier or you had indicated earlier you had a conversation with Judy Brown regarding an IRS letter Simpson had sent Nicole?
A: Yes.
MR. LEONARD: Object to the characterization "IRS letter." I think that misstates the evidence in the case.
THE WITNESS: She mentioned to me about a letter that was sent to Nicole by Skip Taft.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. When did you have this conversation with Judy?
A: It was the morning late morning of the 13th, that Monday. Was it the 13th?
Q: Of June 13th, 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: This was the morning after Nicole's murder?
A: Yes.
Q: And could you tell me what Judy told you?
A: That the letter bothered Judy. She said hat that was the first time or she felt that O.J. was wrong. I don't know the contents of the letter, but it upset Judy, too.
Q: Okay. Did Judy tell you whether or not Nicole was upset by the letter?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
THE WITNESS: Nicole was upset by the letter.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me exactly what Judy said about Nicole?
A: I don't remember that.
Q: But you do recall her saying that Nicole was upset by the letter?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Judy tell you Nicole was very angry at Simpson about the letter also?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
THE WITNESS: She didn't I don't know if she used those words, but I know she said that Nicole was bothered by the letter, was upset by the letter.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. On the morning of June 13th prior to Simpson getting back to Rockingham, were you confident that Simpson knew that Sydney and Justin were down at the Browns and in good hands?
A: I really didn't know. As a friend and a close friend, I felt it was my duty to do whatever I could, and, you know, I felt as long as I was with them, they was gonna be okay.
Q: Okay. On June 13th after Mr. Simpson had arrived back to L.A., did you have any conversation with him that day?
A: Privilege.
Q: Okay. Did Mr. Simpson ever tell you on the 13th that he had murdered Nicole?
A: Privilege.
Q: On the 13th did Mr. Simpson ever tell you he did not murder Nicole?
A: Privilege.
Q: On the 13th did you ever ask Mr. Simpson if he had murdered Nicole?
A: Privilege.
Q: On the 13th did you suspect that Simpson had murdered Nicole?
A: Privilege.
Q: On the 13th did you speak to Skip Taft?
A: Privilege.
Q: On June 13th did you speak to Robert Kardashian?
A: Privilege.
Q: On June 13th did you speak to Cathy Randa?
A: Privilege.
Q: On June 13th did you speak to Howard Weitzman?
A: Privilege.
Q: Is it your intention to assert your Fifth Amendment right to every question I ask on June 13th, 1994 from any time after Mr. Simpson arrived back from Los Angeles?
MR. RE: Of a similar kind, yes.
MR. KELLY: Okay. THE WITNESS: Privilege, yes.
BY MR KELLY:
Q: Other than the people I just asked you about, was there anybody else you spoke to that day that you recall after Mr. Simpson arrived back from Chicago to Los Angeles?
A: Privilege.
MR. KELLY: Now, Mr. Re, you earlier responded that he was going to assert the privilege to any question of that kind.
Is it your intention to assert the privilege for any conversation he had on June 13th, 1994 with anybody he spoke to after Mr. Simpson arrived back to Los Angeles?
MR. RE: Unless I am given a specific person, yes. I mean, there maybe for example, we let him talk about the conversation with Judy Brown.
MR. KELLY: That was before Mr. Simpson arrived back to Los Angeles.
MR. RE: I understand. It's potentially possible that there could be someone that he talked to, but it would have to be something that would really probably you would not be interested in with regard to this case. So with regard to any material area, yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Arnelle Simpson?
A: Privilege.
Q: Okay. Did you see Mr. Simpson the day of June 13th,1994?
A: Privilege.
Q: At any time on June 13th between June 13th and June 17th, did you speak to anybody in the Bahamas?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You want to think again about that?
A: No. Privilege.
Q: Okay. Did you speak to any licensed airline pilots between June 13th and June 17th, 1994?
MR. RE: Because we are taking the privilege with regard to this time period, to be consistent I suggest you assert the privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you speak to any boat owners between June 13th and June 17th, 1994?
A: Privilege. Why don't you just give me immunity, and I can answer all these questions for you?
Q: Well, I would love to.
A: I would love for you to do it, too.
Q: With immunity, you'd answer them all.
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. On June 14th now, okay, did you have any conversations on the morning of the 14th with Judy Brown regarding Mr. Simpson?
A: I was still I was still down there.
(Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)
THE WITNESS: I was there Monday and Tuesday.
MR. RE: To be consistent, we are going to assert the privilege with regard to that area.
THE WITNESS: The privilege.
MR. KELLY: With regard to any conversation he had with Judy Brown?
MR. RE: Yeah. To be consistent, we are going to assert the privilege.
THE WITNESS: Oh, I know what that trip is from now.
MR. RE: Where?
THE WITNESS: Cabo.
MR. RE: He took a look at the xerox that was just brought down here, and he remembers where that photograph was taken, 178. Do you want to ask him?
MR. KELLY: I'm afraid he was going to say "Privilege."
THE WITNESS: No. This was Cabo (Indicating).
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What year?
A: That I don't know, but I remember that was Cabo.
Q: Certain about that?
A: Yeah.
MR. BREWER: I know exactly where that is. That's the Palmillian.
THE WITNESS: That's Cabo.
MR. KELLY: Now, Mr. Re, earlier last Wednesday I asked your client about the morning of the 14th and ; conversations he had with Lou Brown, and he answered those questions.
MR. RE: You know something? I really don't have too much problem with your questions regarding the Browns and what he had to do with that if we can get through it relatively quickly.
MR. KELLY: I am just going through his last days.
MR. RE: We are?
MR. KELLY: Yeah, we are.
MR. RE: Okay. You want to back up and ask him a question about...
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: My question was: Did you have any conversations with Judy Brown the morning of June 14th regarding Mr. Simpson?
A: We had conversations. I couldn't tell you exactly what the conversations were about 'cause there was a lot of talking. You know, it was a mourning period. People were very sad, mourning, you know, the loss of their loved one, and sometimes there was no talking; other times they were talking. So it was I couldn't tell you exactly what, you know, the contents of the conversation.
Q: Okay. Did you see Simpson that day of June 14th at all?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did you see Simpson at Kardashian's that day?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did you go to Kardashian's residence that day?
A: Privilege.
Q: Could you tell me who was at Kardashian's that day of June 14th?
A: Privilege.
Q: Okay. On June 1994 did Simpson tell you that he had murdered Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
MR. RE: Again, to be consistent...
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: On June 14th did Mr.Simpson ever tell you he did not murder Nicole?
A: Privilege.
Q: On June 14th, 1994 did you ever ask Simpson if he had murdered Nicole ?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: On June 14th, 1994 did you suspect Mr. Simpson had murdered Nicole?
A: Privilege.
Q: Okay.
MR. RE: You know, if it speeds it up, I am willing to stipulate that you asked those same questions regarding each of the succeeding days and he asserts the privilege to each of those questions regarding each succeeding day up until what, June 17th?
MR. KELLY: Okay. With regard to the 15th, 16th and 17th?
MR. RE: Yes.
MR. LEONARD: And the objections that I raised will be
MR. RE: Stipulated to be part of the record as to each one of those questions.
MR. LEONARD: Yeah.
MR. RE: Okay.
MR. KELLY: So it's four questions, just four, June 15th, 16th and 17th.
MR. RE: Correct.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you attend Nicole's wake on June 15th?
A: Eventually I did, yes.
Q: Okay. Did you baby-sit at the Browns before you went to the wake?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me who was at the wake when you went there?
A: I pulled up. Just as I was approaching the building, the garage of the mortuary, one of the garages opened up and a black Mercedes pulled out, which was Bob Shapiro's car, and O.J. was sitting in the back.
Q: Was Shapiro in there also?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you speak to them at that time?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you speak to Mr. Shapiro at that time?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did you speak to Mr. Simpson at that time?
A: Privilege.
Q: Could you tell me who, if anybody else, you saw at the wake on June 15th after you had seen Mr. Shapiro and Mr. Simpson?
A: When I walked in the room that Nicole was in...
Q: Was that open casket or closed casket, Mr. Cowlings?
A: It was open.
Q: Did you see Nicole?
A: Yeah. Yes. Cora's husband was in there.
Q: Ron Fischman?
A: Ron Fischman, yes.
Q: Did you speak to him?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Who, if anybody else, did you see after Ron Fischman?
A: Nobody.
Q: Did you say anything to Nicole?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did you know whether Robert Shapiro was a friend of Nicole's or not?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you know why he was at the wake that night?
A: I don't know.
Q: Where did you go after the wake that night?
A: I
MR. RE: Wait, wait, wait, wait. Take the privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
MR. RE: You okay?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm all right.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you speak to anybody after leaving the wake that night?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
MR. KELLY: Is it your intention to assert the Fifth with regard to any conversations Mr. Cowlings had on June 15th, 1994?
MR. RE: Yes.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
MR. RE: That is, as to any material conversation he had there.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: Do you recall Nicole's funeral on June 16th, 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me where you slept the night before her funeral on June 16th?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Could you tell me who was with you the night before her funeral?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me who you spoke to the night before her funeral?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Could you tell me where you were that morning before going up to the funeral mass in Los Angeles?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you attend the funeral mass?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you speak to anybody at the funeral mass?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you recall going to Nicole's burial down in Orange County?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me who you or how you got down to Orange County to the burial from the mass up in Los Angeles?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me who you rode with?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you speak to anybody on the way down?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you speak to anybody at the funeral?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me where you went after Nicole's burial service at the cemetery?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Do you recall going back to the Browns' house after the burial service at the cemetery?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall how you got there?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you speak to anybody at the Browns after you went there?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you switch any clothing with Mr. Simpson when you were at the Browns after the burial?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you take Mr. Simpson's limo back to Rockingham after switching clothes with him at the Browns?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you go back to Mr. Simpson's house on Rockingham after switching clothes with him and taking his limousine back there?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. On June 16th, 1994 did anybody ever discuss with you the fact that Mr. Simpson may be arrested for Nicole's murder?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: On June 16th, 1994 did you know that Mr. Simpson would be arrested for Nicole's murder?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you think Mr. Simpson might be arrested for Nicole's murder on June 16th?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Moving to June I'm sorry. Before we go there, is it
MR. RE: You want it stipulated to those questions on following days also?
MR. KELLY: No. I'm going to ask some different questions. Is it your intention with regard to June 16th to assert the privilege with regard to each and every material conversation he might have had that day?
MR. RE: Yes.
MR. KELLY: Okay. And also THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. Was that the 17th or the 16th?
MR. KELLY: 16th.
MR. RE: But it can be for the 17th, too. We are willing to stipulate to that.
MR. KELLY: I bet you are.
Q: By the way, do you know who picked up Mr. Simpson at the airport when he got back on June 13th?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you know where Mr. Simpson went after he was picked up at the airport on June 13th?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me when was the first time you spoke to Mr. Simpson after the murders?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Simpson going back to the airport to pick up his golf clubs on June 14th with Mr. Kardashian?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Have you ever discussed this with Mr. Simpson?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Have you ever discussed this with Mr. Kardashian?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you know what was in Mr. Simpson's golf bag that he picked up at the airport on June 14th, 1994?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you ever bring Mr. Simpson clothes from Rockingham to Kardashian's house?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever have the opportunity to see inside any of the luggage Mr. Simpson brought back from Chicago on June 13th, 1994?
A: Privilege.
Q: Okay. On June 17th, 1994 were you present at Robert Kardashian's house on that day?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Could you tell me who was present at Robert Kardashian's on that day?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me how you got there that day?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
MR. RE: I will tell you that we will assert the Fifth Amendment to every material question regarding that entire day.
MR. KELLY: Okay, I anticipated that, but I do have to make a record.
Q: Okay. Did you have any conversations with Mr. Simpson the morning of June 17th at Kardashian's house?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did you overhear any conversations between any other parties that morning at Kardashian's house?
A: Privilege.
Q: Could you tell me what, if anything, you observed Mr. Simpson do that day of June 17th at Kardashian's house?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did you observe any physical exams given Mr. Simpson that day at Kardashian's house?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did you speak to any of the doctors present on June 17th at Kardashian's house?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did you observe Mr. Simpson write any letters that day of June 1 7th at Kardashian's house?
A: Privilege.
Q: Okay. Did you discuss any letters Mr. Simpson had written that day of June 17th, 1994?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did you overhear any conversations Mr. Simpson had on the telephone that day at Kardashian's house?
A: Privilege.
Q: Okay. Did Mr. Simpson give you any money to give to Jason and Arnelle that day?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did he give you any money to give to Paula Barbieri that day?
A: Privilege.
Q: Okay. On June 17th did you at any time that day discuss Mr. Simpson's guilt or innocence with regard to Nicole's murder?
A: Privilege.
Q: On that day did you have any information as to Mr. Simpson being arrested prior to the time he was?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did you have any information as to where and when he was to surrender that day?
A: Privilege.
Q: Okay. Did you at one point leave Kardashian's house with Mr. Simpson?
A: Privilege.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me what Mr. Simpson said to you when you left Kardashian's house?
A: Privilege.
Q: Could you tell me what you said to Simpson when you left Kardashian's house?
A: Privilege.
Q: Could you tell me where you were going when you left Kardashian's house that day?
A: Privilege.
Q: Could you tell me where Mr. Simpson wanted to go that day when you left Kardashian's house?
A: Privilege.
MR. RE: You don't think you have a sufficient record? I mean, I realize you have within your control to ask him one question he asserts the privilege to or a thousand questions he asserts the privilege to. If the point is only to get him to assert the privilege a thousand times
MR. KELLY: I want to go into one more area, series of questions, and then I'm done. Okay? The record has to be complete.
Q: Could you tell me, when you left Kardashian's on June 17th, 1994 with Mr. Simpson, why Mr. Simpson had his passport?
A: Privilege.
Q: Could you tell me why Mr. Simpson had $8700 in cash?
A: Privilege.
Q: Could you tell me why Mr. Simpson had several changes of clothes with him?
A: Privilege.
Q: Could you tell me why Simpson had a fake goatee and mustache with him?
A: Privilege.
Q: Could you tell me why Simpson had a gun with him?
A: Privilege.
Q: Could you tell me why Simpson had pictures of his family with him?
A: Privilege.
Q: Could you tell me why Simpson had several changes of clothes elsewhere in the Bronco?
A: Privilege.
Q: Could you tell me why how a bloody towel had gotten in that Bronco that day?
A: Privilege.
Q: Okay. Did Simpson ever indicate to you he needed someone with him to commit suicide that day?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did Simpson ever indicate to you that he couldn't take his own life at Kardashian's that day?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did you have a cell your own cellular phone in the car with you that day of June 17th?
MR. RE: Privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. When you got back to Rockingham the night of June 17th, 1994, could you tell me who was there?
A: Privilege.
Q: Did you have any discussions with Mr. Simpson at that time?
A: Privilege.
MR. KELLY: Is it your intention to assert the Fifth regarding any material conversations Mr. Cowlings had that day?
MR. RE: Let me think about it.
MR. KELLY: Not too long.
MR. RE: Yes.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Is it his intention to assert the Fifth with regard to any of his actions that day?
MR. RE: Yes.
MR. KELLY: Is it his intention to assert the Fifth with regard to any of his observations that day?
MR. RE: Yes.
MR. KELLY: Okay. I'm done. I just want to reserve the right to any further questions should Mr. Cowlings ever be granted judicial immunity of one sort of another in the future.
MR. RE: Of course.
MR. PETROCELLI: Should we start?
MR. RE: Sure, let's do it.
(Discussion held off the record.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, did you know a woman named (name deleted)?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me when you first met her?
A: It was earlier the year of '94.
Q: Okay. Prior to June of 1994?
A: Yes
Q: Could you tell me what your relationship as with her?
A: We all met at dinner, myself and three other gentlemen.
Q: Okay. Prior to June 12th,1994,did you ever have any discussions with (name deleted) regarding Mr. Simpson?
A: Prior to? No.
Q: Okay. Subsequent to June 12th first of all, I will ask you at any time between June 13th and June 17th, 1994, did you have any conversations with (name deleted)?
A: No.
Q: After June 17th,1994 did you have occasion to see (name deleted) again?
A: I saw [her] one time.
Q: After June 17th, 1994?
A: After June 17th.
Q: Okay. Do you know what month that was in?
A: Could have been in the same month.
Q: Of June?
A: Yeah, could have been June.
Q: Okay. Did you have any conversations with her at that time?
A: She had called and
Q: What did she say when she called you?
A: She wanted to see me.
Q: Okay. And did you agree to meet her?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you meet her?
A: Jerry's Deli.
Q: And did you have a conversation with her at that time?
A: The conversation was her and her girlfriend wanted to get with me.
Q: And what did you take that to mean?
A: We gonna have sex.
Q: Okay. And other than that conversation, did you discuss anything else with her?
A: The other girl didn't show, and I said, "What's going on here?" And she says, "Well, don't you want me?"
Q: This is after Jerry's Deli?
A: No. We were still in Jerry's Deli.
Q: Okay.
A: The two of them were supposed to be there when I got there.
Q: That was arranged on the phone, the two of them were going to be there?
A: Right, (name deleted)but when I got there, (name deleted) was the only one there.
Q: Okay. And what happened after she asked you that?
A: So she says, "Well, don't you want me?" Because she was telling me how excited she was about the events that had happened and she was getting off on it, and
Q: Are we referring to Nicole's murder and the Bronco situation and everything else?
A: The Bronco situation.
Q: Okay.
A: And so I said "Okay," and we left Jerry's and drove up to a hotel.
Q: And how long were you with her that day?
A: I don't know. Maybe an hour and a half or so, maybe two hours.
Q: Did you have any substantive conversations with her at all during that hour and a half, two hours?
A: I think she asked me was I all right and everything, and I said, "No, I was just concerned," and we had sex.
Q: Did you have any conversations with her regarding Mr. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Did you discuss with her Mr. Simpson's state of mind prior to the murders of Nicole and Ron on June 12th,1994?
A: No.
Q: Any discussion as to how Mr. Simpson had been behaving in the months prior to Nicole's murder?
A: No.
Q: Any discussions where you told her conversations you had had with Simpson after the murder of Nicole and Ron?
A: No.
Q: Any discussions with [her] as to the location of any clothing, shoes or knife Mr. Simpson may have had the night of June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Anything regarding where the knife used in the murder of Nicole could be found?
A: No.
Q: Any indication that you knew the knife had been thrown in water somewhere by Mr. Simpson that night?
A: No.
Q: Or hidden at any time by Mr. Simpson?
A: No
Q: And it's your testimony that you had no conversation with (name deleted) regarding anything related to the facts and circumstances of this murder?
A: No.
Q: Anything regarding Mr. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Anything regarding Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Anything regarding the slowspeed Bronco chase on June 17th, 1994?
A: No.
MR. KELLY: Okay. I have nothing further.
THE WITNESS: You didn't ask me the details of the sex.
EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, my name is Daniel Petrocelli. I represent Fredric Goldman. You have asserted the Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination a number of times throughout this deposition. I would like to ask you some questions about that.
Were you aware that your lawyer, Mr. Re, made comments to the press to the effect that you wanted to talk, you wanted to tell your story? Are you aware of that?
MR. RE: Are you asking if he's aware whether
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
MR. RE: I made comments?
MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.
Q: Are you aware that your lawyer made comments on your behalf that you wanted to testify fully and completely and wanted to tell the complete story that you have?
MR. RE: You talking about with the grant of immunity?
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Are you aware of that?
A: With the grant of immunity?
Q: Whatever. That you wanted to be able to tell your story. Yeah, if you had immunity, you would talk.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And is that true?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. What have you done to get immunity?
MR. RE: Well, wait a second. He has no obligation to get immunity, he cannot get immunity, and under Kauffman and Daly you are the one who can get him immunity. So there is nothing that he can do in any event.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, the question is: Have you done anything, have you taken any effort, made any effort to obtain permission from the D.A.'s office or go to court, seek relief, or do anything to enable you to come here in this case and give full and complete testimony?
MR. LEONARD: Object
MR. RE: There is no procedure for him to do that. That's an improper question. I direct him not to answer it.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you instructed your lawyer to take such actions on your behalf?
MR. RE: He is not a lawyer. He can't instruct me what to do under the law. It's an improper question. There is nothing that can be done in that regard, and it's totally improper. I direct him.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Have you had any discussions with anybody about whether or not you would testify fully and completely in this deposition in this lawsuit, other than counsel?
A: No. Just with my counsel.
Q: Okay. You understand that the Fifth Amendment is a right that belongs to you and not to your lawyer. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And it's your choice whether or not to exercise it. You understand that. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you can choose not to exercise it and testify fully and answer all the questions. Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you have chosen not to do so. Right?
A: Under the advice of my attorney.
Q: Do you believe you have something to hide?
MR. RE: That's an improper question.
MR. LEONARD: And I object.
MR. RE: It's completely improper. I direct him not to answer that kind of question.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you have something to hide, sir?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation
MR. RE: Again, that's a totally improper question. Anyone who implies
MR. LEONARD: Argumentative.
MR. RE: Anyone who implies that there is something wrong with asserting the Fifth Amendment is doing it for grandstanding and grandstanding only, because there is nothing wrong with that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Are you directing him not to answer?
MR. RE: Yes.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay.
Q: Where do you work, Mr. Cowlings?
A: I work for Jonathan Martin Dress Company.
Q: What exactly do you do there?
A: Production and sales.
Q: And how long have you been there?
A: Over five years now, I would think.
Q: Have you been working there full time for the last five years?
A: Yes.
Q: And normally you work what, 40 hours a week?
A: Give or take more.
Q: Okay. And have you taken any significant breaks from your employment in the last five years since you've been there?
A: Just in the last two years with this unfortunate situation. He's been more than people I work for have been very supportive.
Q: You've been able to take time off?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you've been compensated anyway, even though you've taken the time off?
A: I get paid. Yes, I get my regular salary.
Q: There hasn't been any reduction in your compensation. Is that right?
A: No.
Q: And you said you're in production?
A: Yes.
Q: And this is what? What kind of business is this?
A: Dress manufacturer. We make women's dresses, and I work at the factory.
Q: And they sell the dresses to retailers and wholesalers?
A: Retailers, yes. Retailers.
Q: And your job is in the production side of this?
A: Some production, some sales.
Q: You travel quite a bit?
A: Yeah, I do travel. I work very closely with the owner of the company.
Q: You travel to New York at all?
A: New York, yes.
Q: Okay. And you travel to Brooklyn at all?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you know a woman by the name of (name deleted)?
A: Yes.
Q: And who is (name deleted)?
A: [She's] a friend of mine.
Q: And where does she live?
A: She lives in Brooklyn.
Q: Okay. Are you in contact with her?
A: We talk. We've known each other. We talk off and on. Not all the time, but every once in a while.
Q: Okay. When is the last time you spoke to her?
A: Actually, she called me last week.
Q: How often do you talk to her?
A: She's an entertainer, she's on the road a lot, and she was on tour with the Rolling Stones for a couple years, I guess, this last tour they had.
Q: In 1994 did you talk to her at all?
A: I could have. I don't remember.
Q: What about in June of 1994?
A: I could have. And most of the time when I go to New York, I may call her to see if she's in town or something. I don't know if I did or not.
Q: Do you recall speaking with her at any time in the middle of June of 1994?
A: She called after all this had happened to wish me, you know, good will.
Q: She called during the week of June 13th?
A: I don't know if it was no, I don't know when it was. I had a lot of phone calls, and I was returning phone calls to the people that I knew.
Q: Who else did you talk to in New York City that week?
MR. RE: Wait a second. Which week are you talking about?
THE WITNESS: Which week?
MR. PETROCELLI: June 13th.
MR. RE: Assert the privilege.
THE WITNESS: I wasn't in New York.
MR. RE: No, no. He said, "Who else did you talk to in New York..." I am asking you to assert a privilege to it.
THE WITNESS: Oh, privilege.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know Bobby Bender?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Is he a good friend of yours?
A: Yes.
Q: And he lives in Long Island?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you talk to him that week?
MR. RE: Same thing. Assert the privilege.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. Have you been in contact with him since June 17, 1994
A: Yes.
Q: On a regular basis?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And you've spoken to him about Mr. Simpson's case, haven't you?
A: We have spoken about the situation.
Q: And you spoke to Mr. Bender about the fact that Mr. Simpson stayed with him a couple days before the murder. Right?
A: I don't know for sure. I know I stayed here when I was there that week.
Q: When you were in New York the week that I guess it would be June 5
A: Uh-huh.
Q: or June let me see yeah, the week of June 5, June 5 being a Sunday, you were there what days that week in New York?
A: I was there the week before I was there before that before the weekend all that happened, I was in New York. I came in the week yeah, I guess.
Q: The murders occurred on June 12th
A: 12th.
Q: on a Sunday.
A: I came in I think on like on a Thursday or a Friday. Yeah, I guess that date that you earlier
Q: June 9 or June 10 is when you came back from Long Island, New York?
A: Yeah, I came back on a Wednesday.
Q: Wednesday? So that would be June 8?
A: Yeah, I think so.
Q: And when did you go to New York that week?
A: The week I think I came in like the following week. Could have been a Wednesday or a Thursday.
Q: And the entire time you were there you stayed with Bobby Bender?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And, now, you said you had a telephone call with Mr. Simpson I believe on Tuesday when you were in New York and he was in Los Angeles. Is that right?
A: Yes, I think no. The phone call no, I take that back. The phone call came into Bob Bender's house, and Bobby and I were there. O.J.
Q: I see.
A: O.J. had called from his carphone.
Q: And called Bender and you at Bender's house?
A: Right.
Q: Okay. And then you told Mr. Simpson you were going back to L A., and he was coming out to Bender's, actually. Right?
A: Yes, he was coming in to New York. I didn't know if he was going to stay there. He was coming into New York.
Q: Okay. Now, you've spoken to Bender about Simpson's stay with him those couple of days that week, didn't you?
A: No, I don't remember talking to him about it.
Q: Isn't it true that Mr. Bender described to you what O.J. Simpson was like during those couple of days at his house?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You don't have any recollection of that
A: No.
Q: of ever having spoken with Mr. Bender about Mr. Simpson's behavior and his demeanor during those few days?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you have any conversation with Paula Barbieri in the month of June prior to June 12th?
A: No.
Q: None at all?
A: There was one I stopped by O.J.'s one night to get a ball autographed, and Paula was there, Paula, Arnelle, O.J. When that happened, I don't know. It would have been before June.
Q: Before you took your trip to Bender's in June?
A: Yes.
Q: And was it your understanding when you saw Mr. Simpson there with Paula Barbieri that he had resumed his relationship with her?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I really don't know.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Did you know anything about his relationship with Paula at that time?
A: I know they had been seeing each other.
Q: When was the first time you saw or learned that he had been seeing her again?
A: I never thought too much of it, to be honest with you.
Q: In fact you never understood that he ever broke up with her. Right?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I really don't know, sir. It's
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: In other words, from the first time he met Paula Barbieri and started to date her, you never understood that he broke up with her for an extended period of time. True?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I wasn't around them.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: And you never became aware of a time in his relationship with Miss Barbieri where he stopped seeing her for an extended period of time. True?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge of that.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Well, that's what I'm saying. You don't have any knowledge that he ever stopped seeing her for a lengthy period of time. Correct?
A: I don't know. I don't know. I couldn't answer that. I wasn't around a lot, so I couldn't tell you what status the y were.
Q: Well, you know he was seeing Miss Barbieri during his divorce with Nicole, right, back in 1992 when he first met her?
A: Yeah, he was seeing they were dating.
Q: Right. And did there ever come a time to your knowledge when they stopped dating?
A: I really don't know. I really don't.
Q: Did there come a time when you didn't see Paula Barbieri for an extended period of time?
A: I wasn't around there a lot.
Q: Okay. How many times have you seen her total in your life before the murders?
A: Before the murders? I could probably count it on one hand.
Q: Just about four or five times?
A: If that much. I really didn't see a lot of Paula and O.J. because I wasn't coming around that much.
Q: Okay. So let me make sure we're clear on this. As you sit here today, prior to the murders I am only referring to prior to the murders on June 12 you have no knowledge or information about the status of his relationship with Paula Barbieri, when it was on, when it was off, and so forth?
A: No. No, I don't.
Q: Is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. Do you have any financial involvement with Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR.PETROCELLI:
Q Are you involved in any business ventures with him?
A: No.
Q: Do you receive any money from him?
A: No.
Q: Are the two of you invested in any common businesses or enterprises?
A: There was a
MR. LEONARD: Presently?
MR.PETROCELLI: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: Well, not presently, no.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: When was the last time?
A: He had called me that's when he was involved with Swiss Army knives and he said he he put my name down as something pertaining to a deal that he was involved in. And he said he couldn't go into details at this point in time, but, you know, he let me know that he was thinking of me, and once it was finalized or everything was put in it's proper place, he would be able to explain to me a little more detail what it was about.
Q: When did that occur?
A: Whenever he was putting together the deal with Swiss Army.
Q: Is that before Nicole's murder?
A: Yes, way before.
Q: Long before?
A: I don't know how long before.
Q: Did that deal ever eventuate?
A: Not that I know of. I never heard any more about it.
Q: So within five years prior to Nicole's death, did you have any common business investments with Mr. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Did you receive any money from him other than a free plane ticket or
A: No.
Q: accommodation here or there?
A: No.
Q: Okay. You supported yourself entirely
A: Yes.
Q: from your own earnings?
A: Yes.
Q: And, now, did you say you had some kind of interest in Public Storage?
A: Well, that was years ago. That was when Public Storage first started.
Q: And you've sold that interest?
A: Yes, long ago.
Q: Okay. And you have no financial interest in that company anymore?
A: No.
Q: Or in Louis Marx's company either, Forschner?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Has O.J. Simpson transferred any financial investments or instruments to you in the last two or three years?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether he has transferred any financial investments or instruments to anyone?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Calling for speculation.
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Do you know? That's all I'm asking.
A: I don't know. I have no knowledge of that.
Q: Okay. Do you have any photographs of O.J. Simpson taken, let's say, within five years before Nicole's death in your possession?
A: I have one.
Q: Just one?
A: Yes. I know for sure I have one.
Q: And where is that? At your house?
A: Yes.
Q: And who is in that photograph?
A: O.J. and I.
Q: And when was that taken?
A: It was taken at a football game.
Q: When was that?
A: It was a playoff game.
Q: Years ago?
A: Few years ago. It was the Raiders were playing Denver in the playoffs.
Q: Okay. That's the only photograph you have?
A: That I know for sure because I still see it. I mean, I have it up.
Q: Okay. Do you have any other pictures of Mr. Simpson taken within five years before Nicole's death?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any notes or letters from him?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any notes or letters from Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Have you given anybody since Nicole's death copies or originals of any photographs?
A: No.
Q: Or notes or letters?
A: No.
Q: Or documents of any kind?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Is this deposition the first time you've ever been examined under oath concerning the circumstances of Nicole and Ron Goldman's death?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Has anybody other than Mr. Re ever questioned you about these events?
A: I was questioned by two officers the night that I was arrested.
Q: And other than that incident?
MR. RE: You mean questions he has answered, not people have questioned the press have questioned him repeatedly.
MR.PETROCELLI: Not the press. I am talking about people in their official capacity.
THE WITNESS: Well, Don and Vannatter and Lange
BY MR. PETROCELLI:
Q: Okay. And that's it?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Have you ever been videotaped in answering questions, practiced, rehearsing, anything like that?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you have what is your educational background? Did you graduate from USC?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever get a degree?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever been convicted of a crime?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever been of any crime, felony, misdemeanor, anything?
A: Traffic violations.
Q: Prior to working at your current employer, what did you do for a living?
A: Some film work. I worked as a T.A. on a number of commercials, worked on two features as a technical adviser on anything related to football.
Q: You retired when?
A: In '79
Q : So from 1979 till your present job, you worked in television?
A: I was involved in advertising; I was involved in a restaurant, worked for Public Storage; done commercial work, film work.
Q: What did you do for Public Storage?
A: I ran their I came in as a district manager, and then I got appointed to head up start up a maintenance program in maintaining the projects in the Los Angeles County area.
Q: And how long did you do that for?
A: I got involved with a restaurant. I started it up, and then the restaurant opportunity came. I was made partners of a restaurant over in Hollywood called Fellini's, and then so I left Public Storage.
Q: You were working full time at Public Storage?
A: Yes.
Q: And what time period was this?
A: I was there two or three years, I think.
Q: Then you went to Fellini's?
A: Fellini's, yes.
Q: Who was your partner?
A: A guy by the name of Fred Levinson, who was the commercial director who I been knowing for a long time.
Q: And he worked with O.J. Simpson. Right?
A: Yes. Yes, he did.
Q: On the Hertz commercials?
A: I think so. I think so.
Q: And then how long were you involved with Fellini's?
A: Not too long. I had a problem with two of the other gentlemen that he had made partners.
Q: Who were they?
A: One was I don't know one was they were brothers, and one was named Alan and I forgot the other one's name. So we didn't see eye to eye, so I left.
Q: What years did you operate Fellini's?
A: I was only there for about three months, three or four months.
Q: And what year was that?
A: I wouldn't know.
Q: In the '80s?
A: That was in yeah, probably in the late '80s, I think.
Q: And after Fellini's, what did you do professionally?
A: What did I do. I think I did commercial work. I did a trying to think, figure out when would this fall in. I was the Kool man, Kool cigarettes print ad, black model for Kool for two years. They had a cigarette campaign. I did billboards, print ads, and I did that for about two years, off and on.
Q: After Fellini's?
A: I don't know where it falls in there. Could have been, or it could have been before. I really couldn't tell you.
Q: And after what did you do right before your current job?
A: Couldn't tell you. Probably did I couldn't tell you.
Q: You don't remember?
A: No, I don't remember.
Q: Okay. What is your wife's name?
A: Marion.
Q: Marion?
A: Marion.
Q: Does she live with you?
A: No.
Q: Where does she reside?
A: She lives on [address deleted].
Q: Do you know the address? A: I have it written down.
Q: When did you get married?
A: It was July or was it November. It's been a couple years. I couldn't give you the exact date.
Q: What year was it?
A: Probably would have been '93. '93?
Q: Did you have a best man?
A: No, uh-uh. We went to Vegas and got married.
Q: Okay. Does Mr. Simpson know Marion?
A: Yes.
Q: How long did they know each other?
A: Her and I went together for about a year almost. He met her, been out with her. Nicole, too.
Q: Did Nicole ever meet
A: Yes.
Q: Marion?
A: I'm sorry. Yes.
Q: And you went out as couples?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. How many times did you think that Nicole and Marion had come into contact with each other?
A: Went by the house once, went to dinner with O.J. and Nicole and two other couples. Could have been two or three times.
Q: Did you and Marion separate before or after Nicole's death?
A: We just thought that it would have been best because I wanted to keep her out of all this craziness, so I just tried to keep some sanity, you know, with us. It was just before it happened we kinda like we were having some problems. Then after it happened I just told her, you know, just, you know, be best that we just, you know, try to maintain some privacy.
Q: Did she move out of the home you were living in, or did you move out of the home?
A: I moved out.
Q: Okay. Did you move out of that home before or after Nicole's death?
A: Before.
Q: How long before?
A: I don't know.
Q: Days? Weeks? Months?
A: No, it was sometime before. I don't know when, but I did.
Q: Okay. And what was the address where you were living in June on June 12, 1994?
A: It was on Centinela.
Q: On June 12 of 1994?
A: Oh, June 12th?
Q: Yeah.
A: I was up in the Palisades.
Q: And Marion and you were living on Centinela?
A: Before then, yes.
Q: You moved out and moved to the Palisades?
A: Yes. I still had my apartment in Santa Monica.
Q: Where does the Santa Monica apartment fit in? I'm a little confused. Centinela?
A: No. On San Vicente.
Q: Okay. Let me get this straight. You still had a place on San Vicente in Santa Monica while you were living with your wife
A: Yes.
Q: on Centinela? Is that what you re saying?
A: No. Her and I lived on Centinela, but I still had my apartment on San Vicente, 7th and San Vicente.
Q: And it was vacant?
A: Yeah, there was nobody there.
Q: And then you moved into it?
A: When her and I split up, I went back. Then when the earthquake hit and damaged my apartment, I moved up to the Palisades.
Q: Okay. And that's where you were living on June 12, 1994?
A: Yes.
Q: Are you still living there?
A: No.
Q: And when did you leave that apartment?
A: Sometime after all the craziness happened. Could have been a few months afterwards.
Q: What was the address of that apartment?
A: Which one?
Q: The one on June 12, 1994, the one where you were living
A: Up in the Palisades?
Q: on June 12th. Yeah.
A: It was a house.
Q: Did you own the house?
A: No.
Q: Did you rent it?
A: Yes, I rented part of the house.
Q: And were you living there with someone?
A: The owner of the house lived in the other part of the house.
Q: What is the name of the owner of the house?
A: (name deleted).
Q: How do you spell the last name?
A: Is it (name deleted)?
Q: Does (name deleted) still live there?
A: Yes.
MR.PETROCELLI: Okay. We will have to break now. I was hoping that we could commence again on Monday. Mr. Leonard informs me he is not available on Monday, so I guess we are going to have to schedule this at the next best date for everyone.
MR. RE: Tuesday?
MR. LEONARD: I won't be available next week.
MR. PETROCELLI: Well, I just want to say on the record that I would like to get this done as soon as possible.
MR. LEONARD: That's fine.
MR. PETROCELLI: And perhaps you can rearrange your schedule to make yourself available sometime next week?
MR. LEONARD: No, I won't be able to be available next week.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Well, when can you make yourself available?
MR. LEONARD: The week after.
MR. PETROCELLI: On Monday, May 6?
MR. LEONARD: Let me get back to you. I'm going over
MR. RE: I'll be in trial that week.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. Well, because of all the objections on the record, I just think it's important that we get this transcript completed as soon as possible.
MR. LEONARD: Why don't we keep going now?
MR. PETROCELLI: Because I have to stop at 4:30, and I can't finish in a half an hour, anyway.
MR. LEONARD: How about tomorrow?
MR. PETROCELLI: And I asked Mr. Re and he is not available tomorrow, although I'm willing to come in tomorrow to do this.
MR. LEONARD: Well, I am, too, so...
MR. KELLY: I am.
MR. RE: I'm not.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. So
MR. LEONARD: All right.
MR. PETROCELLI: Okay. So I guess we will have to adjourn at this point.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Allen Cowlings, Volume III. The number of videotapes used was three. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 4:26.
(ENDING TIME: 4:26 P.M.)
I DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT, THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT.
SUBSCRIBED AT ________________,
CALIFORNIA, THIS _ DAY OF _, 19_.
ALLEN COWLINGS