THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. Here begins videotape No. 1 in the deposition of Allen Cowlings, volume II, in the consolidated cases of Fredric Goldman, Sharon Rufo and Louis Brown vs. Orenthal James Simpson in the Superior Court, State of California, County of Los Angeles, the lead case number of which is SC 031947.
Today's date is Wednesday, April 17, 1996. The time is approximately 9:43. This deposition is being taken at 11377 West Olympic Boulevard in Los Angeles, California, and was made at the request of plaintiff of the Law Offices of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp.
The videographer is Rod Rigole, employed by Coleman, Haas, Martin & Schwab of Los Angeles, California. Would counsel please identify yourselves and state whom you represent.
MR. KELLY: John Kelly for the estate of Nicole Brown Simpson.
MS. ROIT: Natasha Roit for the Estate of Nicole Brown Simpson.
MR. BREWER: Michael Brewer for Plaintiff Sharon Rufo.
MR. LEONARD: Daniel Leonard for O.J. Simpson.
MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for Fred Goldman.
MR. GROMAN: Arthur Groman for Fred Goldman.
MR. RE: Donald Re for Mr. Cowlings.
ALLEN COWLINGS, having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Good morning, Mr. Cowlings.
A: Good morning.
Q: Mr. Cowlings, did you testify before the Grand Jury regarding an incident of June 17th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: You never testified -
A: No.
Q: - with regard to that matter?
A: No. I'm sorry. No.
Q: Okay. We'll start all over again today. You've got to let me finish the question. Okay?
A: All right, all right, all right.
Q: All right. Did you speak to Mr. Simpson last night?
A: No.
Q: Did you speak to anybody after you left here yesterday regarding your deposition testimony?
A: Spoke to my attorney, Donald Re.
Q: Other than your attorney, Donald Re, did you speak to anybody else?
A: I've spoke to people but not about the events here.
Q: Who did you speak to last night?
A: Friends call, in general.
Q: In general, could you tell me who?
A: [Names Deleted].
Q: [Name Deleted] who?
A: Teammate of mine from SC, [Name Deleted].
Q: Okay. [Name Deleted]?
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: [Name Deleted]?
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: Okay. And you mentioned someone else, too?
A: Young lady named [Name Deleted] who called me.
Q: [Name Deleted] who?
A: I don't know her last name.
Q: By the way, did you happen to remember that girlfriend's name from San Francisco in '78?
A: I'm afraid so.
Q: I had a feeling you would, Mr. Cowlings. And her name?
A: Diane Day.
Q: Diane Day
A: Day, yes.
Q: D-a-y?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Okay.
MS. ROIT: Yes?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, after l985, after Nicole and Mr. Simpson got married, did you ever observe Mr. Simpson using cocaine?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me the last time prior to his arrest in June of 1994 that you saw him use cocaine?
A: Probably since '85.
Q: Straight through?
A: Last time I saw him?
Q: Yes.
A: Probably at one time I saw him in '85 was the last time I saw him do cocaine.
Q: There was no time after 1985 you saw him use cocaine?
A: Not to my knowledge, no. Not in front of me.
Q: Okay. Did he ever use marijuana in front of you?
A: No.
Q: Okay. After '85 did he ever indicate to you that he had been using cocaine?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever observe any indications in Mr. Simpson's appearance or demeanor that indicated to you that he had been using cocaine?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Yesterday you had answered some questions regarding a conversation you had had with Marcus Allen at Wayne Hughes' estate.
Do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: And I believe you had said that you told Mr. Allen that you knew about his affair with Nicole. Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me, how did you know that he was having an affair with Nicole?
MR. RE: He is going to assert a privilege as to that.
MR. KELLY: On what basis, Mr. Re?
MR. RE: Self-incrimination.
MR. KELLY: Mr. Cowlings' self-incrimination?
MR. RE: Mr. Cowlings is asserting a privilege against self-incrimination.
MR. KELLY: I am asking him questions regarding Mr. Allen et this point, Mr. Re.
MR. RE: Mr. Cowlings is asserting a privilege against self-incrimination.
MR. KELLY: I would like to know the basis for that. As far as I know, the only thing he was ever under investigation for was facts and circumstances refuting to his flight on June 17th, 1994. I would like to know how he is asserting a privilege regarding knowledge of Mr. Allen's activities prior to June 12th of 1994.
MR. RE: You are not entitled to know.
MR. KELLY: I think we need a record if we are going to go into court on this, Mr. Re.
MR. RE: The record is he is asserting a privilege against self-incrimination based upon the standards we announced to you yesterday, period. That's all you are entitled to know.
MR. KELLY: The standard you announced yesterday was that you were not going to answer questions regarding any activities covering the dates from June 17th to approximately two dates thereafter.
MR. PETROCELLI: Two dates?
MR. KELLY: Two weeks thereafter.
MR. RE: Actually, we limited it to shorter than two weeks, actually until the time of his arrest, which I guess is approximately a period of one week, but he is asserting a privilege against self-incrimination.
MR. KELLY: Could you read back that last question again for me, sir.
(Pending question read as follows:
Q: Could you tell me, how did you know that he was having an affair with Nicole?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, did you learn in the period - or first learn in the period between June 17th and approximately June 13th and approximately two weeks after that June 13th date that Marcus Allen and Nicole had been having an affair?
MR. RE: He is asserting a privilege against self-incrimination.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, did you know prior to June 12th, 1994 that Marcus Allen was having an affair with Nicole Brown Simpson?
MR. RE: You can answer.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you know subsequent to approximately - or subsequent to July 1st, 1994, did you have any conversations with anybody regarding Marcus Allen's relationship with Nicole Brown Simpson?
MR. RE: Other than Marcus Allen?
MR. KELLY: Other than Marcus Allen.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And who was that?
A: Cora Fischman.
Q: And when did you have this conversation with Cora Fischman?
A: The day that her and I met.
Q: That was when you called her and arranged that meeting?
A: Right.
Q: And could you tell me what she told you about the relationship between Marcus Allen and Nicole?
A: She said they were friends.
Q: That's all she said?
A: She said they were friends.
Q: Did she say anything about those two having an affair, meaning Marcus Allen and Nicole?
A: She didn't go into detail. She -
Q: Did she -
A: She didn't want to talk about it.
Q: Did you ask her about it?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you press her on it?
A: No. When she said she didn't want to talk about it, I didn't press any more.
Q: Did she indicate at all they had any sort of romantic relationship?
A: She didn't mention it to me.
Q: Mr. Cowlings, did you learn for the first time after July 1st, 1994 that Marcus Allen had been having an affair with Nicole Brown Simpson?
MR. RE: I am going to have to object to it but if you would slightly rephrase the question, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If you would simply ask if he learned -
MR. KELLY: For the first time?
MR. RE: No. For the first time is what bothers me. I mean, if he received information after that date about the affair, I have no problem with him answering that question.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Mr. Cowlings, did you receive any information after July 1st, 1994 that Marcus Allen was having an affair with Nicole Brown Simpson?
A: You said after July 1st?
Q: Yes.
A: I knew of it.
Q: Did you receive any further information or any information regarding Marcus Allen having an affair with Nicole Brown Simpson?
A: No
Q: Did you receive any information at all prior to June 12th, 1994 that Marcus Allen was having an affair with Nicole Brown Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you have any conversations with Marcus Allen after July 1st, 1994 regarding his relationship with Nicole Brown Simpson?
A: Explain. Are you asking me another conversation, or are you speaking about the first conversation?
Q: Any conversations other than the one you've already testified to, at Wayne Hughes' place.
A: Pertaining to?
Q: Marcus Allen's relationship with Nicole Brown Simpson.
A: No.
Q: Did you have any conversations with Marcus Allen regarding Mr. Simpson's possible involvement in Nicole's murder, after July 1st, 1994?
A: Not involvement. We spoke about how bad the situation - how bad it is.
Q: And what was bad about it?
A: Our best friend is accused of murder and our other friend who's dead.
Q: Did you have any discussion as to the evidence that had emerged against Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague as to "evidence."
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: None?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you have any discussions that day with Wayne Hughes regarding Nicole Brown Simpson?
A: After what day?
Q: On the day you were up at Wayne Hughes' estate.
A: What day is that?
Q: The day you had the conversation with Marcus Allen also.
A: About what?
Q: About Nicole.
A: That we - you know, it was a dreadful situation. Everybody was bothered by all this.
Q: Was there anything in particular that Mr. Hughes was bothered by with the situation?
A: Yeah.
Q: What in particular?
A: Nicole is dead and O.J.'s in jail.
Q: Did he indicate in any way he was upset with things that were being said about Nicole Brown Simpson?
A: We all were.
Q: What had you heard that you were upset about?
A: Just how the media has just pounded on this stuff, and it was just, you know, someone like - We all knew Nicole, and to have things in the press, you know, I don't know how true or whatever it is, but you feel for her.
Q: Well, what were the things in the press that you heard about Nicole that you felt for?
A: Probably most damaging was Faye Resnick's book.
Q: Well, that didn't come out for months later, did it?
A: Yeah, but that's the only thing I can remember.
Q: Okay. What about prior to that? I am asking you now when you are talking to Mr. Hughes at his estate.
A: We just talked about, you know, how awful a situation it is.
Q: Do you remember hearing reports of Nicole's drug use?
MR. RE: At that time, you mean?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: At that time.
A: I don't know. I don't remember.
Q: Have you heard subsequent to that time reports of Nicole's using drugs?
A: I don't remember.
Q: You ever seen her use drugs?
A: Who? Nicole?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me any other concerns you heard about in the media that were upsetting you?
A: How - there were a couple, I guess, tabloids that doctor up pictures. I guess she made a trip to Cabo, and how they trying to make it perceived that she was just a very wild person.
Q: Was she?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Okay. When did you see Nicole use drugs?
A: Around the same time that I saw O.J.: In '85.
Q: 1985?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you were still as good a friend with Mr. Simpson in 1994 as you were in 1985, were you not?
A: Yes.
Q: And just as close to him?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were just as close to Nicole in 1994, if not closer, than you were in 1985?
A: Yeah, we were close.
Q: Spent a lot of time with her?
A: No, I didn't spend a lot of time but, you know, I would go by and see them, you know, see the kids.
Q: Okay. And you'd visit with her?
A: Yeah, go over and take the kids to breakfast in the mornings sometime.
Q: In the two years prior to 1994, did you ever see Nicole use any drugs?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you see - did you hear any stories of her acting wild in any way?
A: Are you speaking of when she was divorced?
Q: Yeah. That you knew of.
A: I would see her out.
Q: Dancing?
A: At restaurants.
Q: Where did you see her?
A: The Monkey Bar.
Q: How many times did you see her there?
A: Two or three times.
Q: And who were you there with?
A: With friends or went in there by myself.
Q: Okay. Do you recall who she was with first time you saw her there at the Monkey Bar?
A: I think it was Cici and Faye.
Q: Okay.
MR. PETROCELLI: What's the time frame here? You said two years before '94.
MR. KELLY: Right.
Q: This is after the divorce?
A: This is after the divorce.
Q: Okay. After October l992?
A: I'd been by her house a few times for little parties that she had given at her condo.
Q: Well, putting that aside for a minute, the parties at the condo, could you tell me approximately the first time you saw Nicole out at the Monkey Bar?
A: I couldn't put a date on it.
Q: Was it after her divorce from Mr. Simpson in 1992?
A: I don't know if the divorce was final. I mean, she had moved out.
Q: For all intents and purposes, the marriage was over at that point?
A: Seems like it - it seemed like it at that time, yes.
Q: And who did you see Nicole with the first time you saw her at the Monkey Bar?
A: Cici and Cora - I mean Cici and Faye.
Q: Okay. Not Cora?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Do you remember who else Nicole was there with?
A: Some of the, I think, managers or employees of the Monkey Bar.
Q: Do you know their names?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever learn their names afterwards?
A: No.
Q: Do you know what time she left?
A: No.
Q: Was her behavior wild or unacceptable to you?
A: No. She was having fun, enjoying herself.
Q: Just the way she always did?
A: Seemed like it.
Q: Okay. When was the next time you saw her, say, at the Monkey Bar?
A: I don't know. Could have been a week, two weeks, three weeks.
Q: After the first time you had seen her?
A: Probably.
Q: Okay. And who was she there with at that time?
A: I think she was with Cici and Faye.
Q: Okay. And did you talk to her at that time?
A: Uh-huh. Yes.
Q: Okay. I am sorry. Who did you say you were with the first time you saw her at the Monkey Bar?
A: I met friends there or I went there by myself.
Q: Was Mr. Simpson there with you the first time?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you ever call Mr. Simpson afterwards and tell him you had seen Nicole there?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Now, the second time you saw he at the Monkey Bar, who else were you with?
A: I don't know if I was by myself or met people there. The Monkey Bar was a very popular place, so there was people there that I knew, and I knew people was going to be there that I knew.
Q: Was Mr. Simpson there the second time you saw Nicole there?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you talk to her that night?
A: Yes.
Q: Was she having a good time?
A: Yes.
Q: Was she wild or out of control?
A: Seemed like she was enjoying herself.
Q: Okay. Dancing?
A: There's no dancing in the restaurant.
Q: Okay. At the Monkey Bar?
A: At the Monkey Bar.
Q: Okay. And as far as you could tell, she was just there with Cici and Faye?
A: Yeah. They were enjoying themselves.
Q: Okay. Anybody else at the table, any dates or anything?
A: Could have been guys coming and going, sitting down, talking to them.
Q: By the way, did you see Nicole leave the first time she - you saw her at the Monkey Bar?
A: No.
Q: Did you see her leave the second time she was at the Monkey Bar?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And after this second time you saw her, did you see her a the time at the Monkey Bar?
A: I think so.
Q: And how long after that second time did you see her?
A: I don't know.
Q: Do you recall who she was with?
A: Faye and Cici.
Q: So each time you saw Nicole, she was with Faye and Cici?
A: Well, she could have been with Faye this time.
Q: Just Faye?
A: I think.
Q: Any men with them also?
A: Could have been.
Q: Were they seated having dinner or at the bar?
A: They were seated at a table in the dining room.
Q: Just the two of them?
A: Like I said, people were coming over, saying hello to them or speaking to them.
Q: Okay. They weren't up at the bar, though?
A: Not the three times that I was there. They always had a table?
Q: Okay. Could you tell me what time of night this was you saw them at the table?
MR. LEONARD: At which occasion?
MR. KELLY: All three occasions.
Q: If you could tell me.
A: I couldn't give you a definite time. It was at night.
Q: Was it after midnight the first time?
A: I really don't know.
Q: Was it after midnight the second time?
A: I really don't know.
Q: Was it after midnight the third time?
A: I don't know.
Q: And was it your impression each time that they were there seated having dinner?
A: They would be drinking their champagne and eating their caviar.
Q: Okay. Did Simpson ever tell you he thought Nicole was unfaithful to him during their marriage?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole ever tell you that she was unfaithful to Mr. Simpson during their marriage?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did Nicole ever even show any interest in any other man that you saw during her marriage to Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague, showing interest.
THE WITNESS: Interest in how?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Just being flirtatious at all?
A: No, not to my knowledge.
Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say that Nicole was during their marriage completely dedicated to Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes, I would say that, yes.
Q: Devoted to him?
A: Yes, very much so.
Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say also that Nicole would always put Simpson's interests before hers during their marriage?
A: I would say the two of them did. They best - you know, he was concerned about her and she was concerned about him.
Q: And she would usually put Simpson's career interests before hers during the marriage also?
A: When you say "interests" what are you speaking about?
Q: Well, professional interests. Like that she knew he had to go live in New York, and she would make that sacrifice because that was part of his career during their marriage?
A: She enjoyed it, too.
Q: Yeah. Okay. And would it be fair to say that Nicole would also put Sydney and Justin's interests before her own?
A: It was her children. She was very close to them.
Q: Okay. And as we sit here today, can you tell me whether Nicole was anything besides a devoted, loving, selfless wife to Mr. Simpson?
A: She was a great person.
Q: And as we sit here today, can you tell me if Nicole was anything other than a devoted, loving, selfless mother to Sydney and Nicole?
A: She was a great mother.
Q: Okay. Do you miss Nicole?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Okay. Do you think Sydney and Justin miss her?
A: I'm quite sure they do.
Q: Do you think the Browns miss her?
A: Yes.
Q: Do her friends miss her?
A: I would think so.
Q: Okay. Was her murder a great loss?
A: It was a great loss.
Q: Yesterday we had been discussing an incident in Hawaii during Christmas of 1988.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: When you came back from Hawaii, could you tell me the next time that you saw Nicole?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Was that at the end of December 1988, that you came back from Hawaii?
A: I don't know if we stayed for New Year's or came back. I really don't know. That was a long time ago.
Q: Okay. Do you remember whether you saw Nicole on New Year's Eve of 1988?
A: No, I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Do you recall the incident where you took Nicole to the hospital on New Year's Day?
A: What year?
Q: 1989.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And that would have been January 1st, 1989?
A: That night, January 1st, yes.
Q: Okay. Now, was that in fact a couple days after you had just gotten back from Hawaii?
A: I don't know when I went - I don't know if it was in '88 or '89. I don't remember when I was in Hawaii.
Q: Can you make any association between the Hawaiian trip and when you took Nicole to the hospital?
A: No.
Q: You don't recall that just being a couple days after you had gotten back from Hawaii?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Okay. Are you certain that it wasn't a couple days after you had gotten back from Hawaii that you took Nicole to the hospital?
A: Pardon?
Q: Are you certain that it was not just couple days later, after you had gotten back from Hawaii, that you took Nicole to the hospital?
A: I don't understand the question. You're saying what?
MR. KELLY: I am sorry. Can you read the last question back again, please.
(Pending question read as follows: "Q: Are you certain that it was not just a couple days later, after you had gotten back from Hawaii, that you took Nicole to the hospital?")
THE WITNESS: I don't remember. Like I said, I don't - I know we all went - it could have been '87; could have been '88; it could have been '89, for all I know. I don't remember the trip, putting it together with the night I took her to the hospital.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: No association between the two.
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Looking back from New Year's Day evening when you took Nicole to the hospital, had you seen Nicole at all the day before, on New Year's Eve?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And where did you see her?
A: We were all at a parry for New Year's Eve.
Q: And where was that party?
A: It was in Santa Monica.
Q: Was it a restaurant or someone's house?
A: No, it was a house party.
Q: Whose party was it?
A: A gentleman by the name of [Name Deleted] and his wife [Name Deleted].
Q: Was this an annual party you used to attend?
A: I don't know if he has it every year, but he - I was invited and the Simpsons were invited.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me how many people were there at this party total?
A: Quite a few.
Q: More than a hundred?
A: Seemed like it. The house was crowded.
Q: Okay. Was this black tie or...
A: No. You know, sport coat, suit.
Q: And did you have a date that night?
A: Yes.
Q: And who were you with?
A: That I cannot remember.
Q: Given time, do you think you might?
A: No, I know I wouldn't remember that one. I'm better with faces than names.
Q: I'd ask you to describe her, but I don't think it's necessary.
A: Knowing you, you probably would.
Q: I might. I might get back to it. And you saw Mr. Simpson that night also?
A: Yes.
Q: Was this a dinner party or just drinks and appetizers?
A: I don't know if it was finger food or buffet. It was food there.
Q: Okay. And this went till after midnight? It was an actual New Year's Eve party?
A: Yes.
Q: And were you there till after midnight?
A: Yes, because when midnight came, everybody - you know, you embraced your date or your wife or whoever you was with and kissed and brought in the new year.
Q: You can't think of the name of that person you embraced and kissed?
A: No, uh-uh.
Q: Okay.
MR. LEONARD: Assumes a fact not in evidence.
MR. KELLY: He was speaking generally. I assumed he did what everybody else did that night.
Q: Did the Simpsons stay till after midnight, as far as you know?
A: As far as I know, yes.
Q: Do you recall speaking to them after midnight on that night?
A: Yeah, we all hugged and embraced each other.
Q: Do you know whether Mr. Simpson was drinking that night?
A: I know I was drinking. I don't know you know, I guess everybody had a drink of some kind.
Q: Do you recall Mr. Simpson appearing intoxicated to you at all?
A: Didn't seem to be.
Q: Okay. What about Nicole, did she appear to be intoxicated to you?
A: Seemed to be fine.
Q: Okay. Do you recall them leaving that night?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you remember saying good-bye to them.?
A: I don't know if I left before them or they left before me.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me, after that night, when was the next time you spoke to Mr. Simpson?
A: Would have been that morning.
Q: Do you recall what time?
A: I was woken up by a phone call from Michelle, the maid.
Q: Simpson's housekeeper?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And what time was that at?
A: I was in a dead sleep, so I probably was out for a number of hours, I don't know, two or three hours or so. I don't know.
Q: Was it about 3:30 or 4:00 a.m. in the morning, do you recall?
A: It could have been.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me exactly what Michelle said to you at that time?
A: She was somewhat upset. You know, I couldn't make heads or tails because I'm coming out of a sleep and I'm trying to make - get my own thinking process going, and finally I got her to slow down, and - I don't know - she said something about come up there, something was going on. I don't know if she said, "O.J. and Nicole are fighting," or something like that.
Q: Could you tell me specifically what she said to you?
A: I couldn't tell you specifically because I don't remember exactly the words she said.
Q: Okay. Well, how long were you on the phone with her for?
A: Wasn't too long. I dropped the phone and jumped in my car and drove up there.
Q: Right after she called you?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And when you got there - How far did you live from Rockingham at that time?
A: Five minutes. I lived in [Address Deleted].
Q: Was it your impression in speaking to Michelle that Mr. Simpson and Nicole were in the middle of fighting when she called you?
A: I don't know if they was in the middle or just started or finished. I had no idea. I just reacted.
Q: And to the best of your recollection, all you remember is her saying that - something about a fight?
A: Right.
Q: Could you tell me, as best you can, what you think Michelle said to you?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir. I told you as best as I can. I don't remember the exact words that she used, but, you know, like I said, that the two of them were fighting.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. And do you recall looking at your clock as you dropped the phone and got ready and scooted over there?
A: No, sir.
Q: Do you recall what time it was when you got there?
A: No, sir.
Q: Could you tell me what you observed when you arrived there?
A: When I got there, I don't know if I pushed the phone outside or if I came in on the Rockingham side with my key. I don't remember.
Q: Do you remember where you parked?
A: I think I parked outside, I think.
Q: On Ashford or Rockingham?
A: I don't remember. It could have been one - I probably - I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
Q: Did you drive your white Ford Bronco over there?
A: No. I didn't have that then.
Q: What did you have?
A: What did I have. I don't remember what car I had.
Q: It wasn't the one you just had the lawsuit about that you were fighting -
A: No.
Q: - over, was it?
A: No.
Q: You have no idea which car it was?
A: No, I don't remember.
Q: Okay. All right. After you parked the car, could you tell me what happened next?
A: I don't know if Nicole buzzed me in or Michelle buzzed me in or if I came through the gate. I walked in. I came into the kitchen. Nicole was by the sink, and she was upset, mad.
Q: How did you know she was upset?
A: Because I looked at her.
Q: Was she crying?
A: No, she wasn't crying. She was - she was mad. And I said, "Are you all right?" I don't know if she said - I think she sweared a little bit. And I was there for her, asked her if there was anything I could do.
She said "No, I just want to be left alone," and I stood there, and she was just shaking her head, just pissed off, real pissed off.
And then I heard a sound, and I walked from the kitchen to the dining room, and O.J. was standing there, and I said, "What are you doing?" And he stepped into the light of between the doorway and the dining room and he said, "Nicole, can I talk to you?" and she picked up the phone to call the cops again. No. She picked up - when I was there, she picked up the phone to call the cops. I assumed that they had already been there because she had a policeman's jacket on.
Q: Okay. Keep going.
A: And then she said, "If you don't get outta here, I'm going to call the police."
Q: Who did she say that to?
A: To O.J.
Q: Did you say anything to him at that time?
A: I looked around, and he went back into the dining room area, and I guess he went out the back way.
Q: What happened next?
A: I walked over to Nicole, I embraced her, and I asked her was she all right. I don't know if she answered me. She was mad. So I said, "Well, if you need me" no. She said, "I want to just be left alone, A.C." I said, "Well, if you need me, you call me," and I left.
Q: Okay. When you first walked - how did you get into the house?
A: I don't know if the door was open or if I used my key or Nicole opened the door. I really don't know.
Q: Well, you indicated the first time you saw Nicole herself, she was by the kitchen sink?
A: Yeah. So I guess maybe the door was open.
Q: Okay. And what was Nicole doing, if anything, at the kitchen sink?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Was the water running?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Could you describe the clothing she had on at that time that you saw her?
A: She had on a warm-up bottoms, a jacket -
Q: What color were the warm-up bottoms?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did you notice anything about the appearance of those bottoms?
A: I think they had a white stripe on the side. I think.
Q: Were they short or long?
A: Long.
Q: Were they dirty or clean?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. And you indicated she had a policeman's jacket on?
A: It looked like a policeman's jacket.
Q: Okay. Could you describe her facial appearance to me at that time?
A: Red -
Q: Where was she red?
A: I don't know. You know how some people get mad and just turn red.
Q: And that's in your opinion the only reason her face was red?
A: I don't know.
Q: What else about her facial appearance other than red?
A: Seemed like she had been crying.
Q: Anything else?
A: No. She was more mad than I've ever seen her.
Q: How was that? How was she demonstrating that she was more mad than you've ever seen her?
A: I've seen - you know, she was mad.
Q: Was she vocalizing her anger?
A: Yeah.
Q: What did she say specifically?
A: She was swearing. She was calling him I think she called him a son of a b----, a--hole.
Q: Seem appropriate at the time?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't know what happened.
BY M. KELLY:
Q: Other than "son of a b----" and "a--hole," what else did she say to you, A.C?
A: I don't remember.
Q: She didn't tell you what happened?
A: I don't know if she told me they were in bed or they were having sex. I don't know. I can't remember exactly.
Q: Nicole was one of your closest friends, wasn't she?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were called over in the middle of the night because she was in a fight with Mr. Simpson?
A: I was called by Michelle.
Q: By Michelle?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Then when you walked in the house, Nicole was angrier than you had ever seen her?
A: Yes.
Q: More upset than you had ever seen her?
A: Seemed like it, yes.
Q: Her face was red?
A: Yes.
Q: She had been crying?
A: Yes.
Q: She was there with a policeman's jacket on?
A: Yes.
Q: She was cussing out Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you please tell me what she told you at that time when you came into the kitchen, Mr. Cowlings?
A: I don't remember. I can't remember the exact words that were used, sir.
Q: Could you tell me in general terms what she told you had happened?
A: I don't know if - she said something about being in bed. I really - I couldn't pinpoint it.
Q: Mr. Cowlings, did you ask her what had happened?
A: I don't remember asking Nicole what happened.
Q: Under the circumstances I just related back to you, you did not ask Nicole what was wrong?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: When Nicole told me she didn't want to be bothered, she wanted to be left alone, I didn't push the issue.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you think you knew what had happened?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I wasn't there, sir. I don't know what happened.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I didn't ask you if you were there. Did you think you knew what had happened?
A: No, sir.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you talk to Mr. Simpson at all?
A: Not at that particular time when he appeared into the kitchen, no. I asked him, "What are you doing?"
Q: What did he say?
A: He didn't - I don't think he said anything. He just kinda like looked over to Nicole and he said, "Can I talk to you?"
Q: And what did she say?
A: She told - I think she picked up the phone and started dialing, and I think she said, "If you don't leave, I'm going to call the police," or she was calling the police, and he turned around and walked back into the shadows.
Q: Do you know whether he left the house or not?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether the car started or not?
A: No.
Q: Where was Michelle when you saw Nicole in the kitchen?
A: I never saw Michelle.
Q: So you don't even know whether she was there or not?
A: No.
Q: And you don't know whether Simpson had left the house or not?
A: No, because when he walked back, I just turned back around and looked at Nicole, walked back over to the area where she was.
Q: And it was your impression the police had been there already that night?
A: Yeah, because that jacket she had on, I had never seen it, and it looked like a policeman's jacket.
Q: Other than seeing the jacket, was there any other reason you thought the police had been there already that night?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole tell you the police had been there that night?
A: I don't know if she did or not.
Q: You don't remember anything about this conversation yon had with her?
MR. LEONARD: Objection -
THE WITNESS: I don't remember -
MR. LEONARD: - misstates his evidence before.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember her telling me about the police had been there.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Mr. Simpson tell you the police had been there?
A: No.
Q: Did Michelle when she called you tell you the police had been there?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any indication on Nicole's face - did you see any lumps on her?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you see any bruises on her?
A: I don't remember that.
Q: Did you see any cuts on her?
A: I don't remember.
Q: See any scratches on her?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you see a hand print on her neck?
A: No. I never looked at her neck.
Q: Did you see a big mud smear down one of her legs on those white sweat pants?
A: They could have been dirty.
Q: Do you remember whether they were dirty?
A: I don's know for sure if they were dirty.
Q: Did you ever hear a car pulling out of the driveway after Mr. Simpson left the room?
A: I don't remember hearing a car, no.
Q: Did it strike you as a volatile situation in that house that you had been called over into, Mr. Cowlings?
A: Volatile?
Q: Yeah.
A: What do you mean by that?
Q: Like a threatening situation for Nicole.
A: I don't know how threatening it was.
Q: Well, did Michelle tell you there was a fight going on there?
A: Michelle said they were fighting.
Q: Okay. When you arrived there, you thought the police had been there already?
A: My - I don't know - I didn't think about the police. I was just, you know, thinking about what was happening inside, and then I went inside.
Q: What did you think was happening inside?
A: Was some problems going on some kinda way. I don't know if it was a verbal argument. I don't know if it was a physical argument. All I know, it must have been pretty intense for Michelle to call and wake me up.
Q: Okay. Would it have been pretty intense for the police to be called there also?
A: That I don't know, sir.
Q: You didn't think there was any reason to fear for Nicole's safety when you were there at that time?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you? I am asking him if he felt there was any reason for him to fear for Nicole's safety at that time.
A: I would have been there for anybody's safety. If O.J. was injured, I would have been there for his safety, too.
Q: I'm not asking you about O.J. Did you see any signs of injury on Mr. Simpson?
A: When he was in the shadows, I didn't look at him - when he came in and I asked him, "What are you doing," he looked over at Nicole and says, "Can I talk to you?"
Q: Was he red?
A: I didn't really get a good look at O.J.
Q: Did he seem upset?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he seem frightened?
A: I don't know. He seemed to be upset.
Q: Did you ever have to take Mr. Simpson to the hospital after being abused by Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did he ever indicate to you that he was afraid of her?
A: No.
Q: How big was Mr. Simpson?
A: Fairly good size, 6-1.
Q: How much did he weigh?
A: I guess about 200 pounds, little bit over 200 pounds.
Q: Do you think Nicole was any match for him in a fight?
A: If she had something in her hand.
Q: Did you see her with anything in her hands that night?
A: No.
Q: Did you think it was safe to leave that house with Nicole there in the kitchen that night?
A: Well, she told me that - she wanted to be left alone.
Q: Did she say why she wanted to be left alone?
A: No, she didn't.
MR. KELLY: Can we take a break for five minutes.
THE WITNESS: Sure.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:26.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 10:34.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, during this time when you were in the kitchen with Nicole, did you have any opportunity to observe what time it was then?
A: No, sir.
Q: And other than what you've testified to already, you cannot tell me anything else that Nicole said to you at that time?
A: Not that I can remember, no.
Q: Okay. And do you recall seeing a lump over Nicole's right eye?
A: When?
Q: When you were in the kitchen at that time.
A: No.
Q: Do you recall seeing a lump on her right cheek?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall seeing a split lip?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall seeing scratches on her face?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall seeing scratches on her neck?
A: No.
Q: Is it your testimony that none of those injuries were there at that time?
A: Not at that time.
Q: You're certain that they were not there?
A: I'm not certain they were not there. I didn't notice them.
Q: Okay. Did you ever prior to that night ever see any bruises on Nicole's face?
A: Maybe her picking her face, if you want to refer to that as bruises.
Q: I'm sorry. Had you ever seen indications on her face from her picking at it?
A: I used to see her pick at it. I would hit her hand.
Q: I realize that, Mr. Cowlings. Now, you have testified to, if I can have a moment... "Maybe her picking her face, if you want to refer to that as bruises." Did you see any marks from when she had ever picked at her face?
A: When you say "marks," what do you mean? Little red little things as you pick?
Q: Yes.
A: When she picked her face, I'd see them.
Q: You did.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Okay. When you testified yesterday -
MR. PETROCELLI: Did you get the answer?
THE REPORTER: He said, "Uh-huh."
THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm sorry. Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Do you recall indicating yesterday that you had never seen any marks left from Nicole picking at her face?
A: I said she would pick her face, and I would hit at her hand.
Q: Okay. Do you recall saying that you had never observed any marks left from her picking at her face yesterday?
A: I don't remember what I said yesterday, but I remember, you know, she did pick at her face.
Q: Okay. And you didn't talk to Mr. Simpson last night?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Okay. Did you speak to any of Mr. Simpson's attorneys last night?
A: No
Q: Did you review any documents last night before coming in here today?
A: No.
Q: Okay. How long were you at Rockingham at this time in the morning when Michelle had called you over there?
A: I don't remember how long I was there.
Q: Well, would you be able to approximate for me?
A: No.
Q: You indicated that you heard Nicole just say a couple of things to Mr. Simpson. Correct?
A: She said something about, "Get out of here or" - she picked up the phone, and she was dialing 911, again, I guess.
Q: Okay. You remember that. You remember her saying a couple things to Mr. Simpson. Correct?
A: She said something about: "Get outta here." I mean, that's vaguely what I remember.
Q: Okay. And you remember embracing her?
A: Oh, no.
Q: You never embraced Nicole?
A: No. I embraced Nicole.
Q: Yeah, I said you embraced Nicole.
A: Oh, I thought you said did he, did he embrace her.
Q: No.
A: Oh, no. I embraced her, yes.
Q: Okay. Other than that, what other activity did you and Nicole engage in? Anymore talking, other then what you've testified to already?
A: No. When she said she wanted to be left alone, that's when I stated that "If you need me, you know, call me."
Q: Did you see any broken furniture at that time when you were there?
A: No.
Q: See any broken lamps?
A: No.
Q: See any broken glass?
A: No.
Q: Okay. By the way, had you ever - Actually, strike that question. Was it light out or dark out at this time?
A: I guess it was still dark.
Q: When you got there, it was still dark?
A: Uh-huh. Yes. Yes.
Q: Okay. All right. What did you do next after you were in the kitchen with Nicole?
A: Do next when?
Q: After you were in the kitchen. Did you stay there all day?
A: No. I left. When she said she wanted to be left alone, I left.
Q: Okay. You never saw Michelle?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever - do you recall what cars were in the driveway when you got there that morning?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall whether there were any cars in the driveway when you left -
A: No.
Q: - that morning? And once again, was it more than five minutes you were at the house at that time?
A: Probably. That was probably, you know, longer than five minutes.
Q: Were you there longer than 10 minutes?
A: Probably.
Q: Were you there longer than 15 minutes?
A: I couldn't tell you.
Q: What did you do after you left Rockingham at that time?
A: Went to my apartment, went back to my apartment.
Q: And did you go back to sleep?
A: Tried to, yeah.
Q: What happened next that day?
A: I had a phone call.
Q: From?
A: O.J.
Q: What time was that?
A: Early morning. I don't know exactly what time.
Q: Okay. And what did he say to you?
A: He asked me how was Nicole, and I said, "She seems to be okay," and I said, "Where are you," and he was over at [Name Deleted]'s house.
Q: That's all he said?
A: And he wanted me to come over.
Q: To [Name Deleted] 's house?
A: Yes.
Q: What was your understanding of what he was asking you when he said, "Is Nicole okay?"
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I have no idea.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You didn't ask him what he meant by that?
A: No.
Q: Did you get the impression he was asking about her physical well-being?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what his reason for him to ask me how she was.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: How did you know to answer, Mr. Cowlings?
A: Pardon?
Q: How did you know what to answer if you didn't know what he was asking you?
A: I said, "She seems to be okay."
Q: And that's all you said?
A: That's all I said.
Q: Did he ask you whether you had any conversation with Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Did he ask you if the police had come back again?
A: No.
Q: Did he ask you whether you had any conversations with Nicole about the police?
A: No.
Q: Did he indicate to you that the police had been there earlier that morning?
A: Not on the phone.
Q: Did he indicate to you that he was concerned about a police report being filed, in that phone conversation?
A: No.
Q: Did he indicate to you why he wanted you to come over to [Name Deleted] 's early on New Year's Day?
A: I guess he wanted to talk to me when I got there.
Q: Did he tell you that on the phone?
A: He just asked me to come over.
Q: Do you recall what time it was at this point?
A: No.
Q: It was early, though?
A: Yeah, it was still early.
Q: Okay. Was it after 6:00 o'clock in the morning?
A: I have no knowledge. It was light outside.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether it was after 7:00 o'clock in the morning?
A: No, I don't remember.
Q: When Mr. Simpson said he wanted you to come over to [Name Deleted] 's, what did you do?
A: I got in my car and drove over.
Q: How long between the time you hung up the phone from Mr. Simpson and drove over there?
A: Five minutes.
Q: And how long a time had elapsed from the - time Michelle called you earlier on the phone to the time you got in the car and drove over there the first time?
A: Hours. I couldn't tell you exactly. The exact time, I wouldn't know.
Q: Well, was it more than five minutes, or less?
A: What?
MR. RE: I think he misunderstood the question.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Let me ask it again then.
Q: When Michelle called you very early that New Year's morning and told you something about a fight, when you hung up the phone from her, how much time elapsed before you were in the car and heading over to Rockingham.?
A: I don't know. I just threw on some sweat pants and I guess a T-shirt or a sweat shirt and jumped in the car.
Q: Less than five minutes?
A: Yeah, it takes less than five minutes to put that on.
Q: Okay. And where did the [Name Deleted] 's live at this point?
A: On Mandeville Canyon.
Q: And how long a drive is that from where you were living?
A: Probably the same distance. Mandeville Canyon and Rockingham are one street apart - or one - well, they're not one street, but they in the same vicinity.
Q: Okay. Well, how far was Rockingham from where you were living at that time?
A: In mileage, three, four miles, I guess. Could be -
Q: Well, how long did it take you to drive over to Rockingham -
A: I didn't time it. I'm sorry.
Q: How long did it take you to drive over to Rockingham that morning when Michelle called you?
A: It didn't take me that long at all.
Q: Less than 10 minutes?
A: Oh, definitely.
Q: Okay. Less than five minutes?
A: I couldn't tell you less than five. Could have been five.
Q: Okay. And [Name Deleted] 's house was approximately the same distance away?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did you happen to see what time it was as you headed over to [Name Deleted] 's house?
A: No.
Q: Did you happen to see what time it was when you got to [Name Deleted] 's house?
A: No.
Q: What happened when you got to [Name Deleted] 's house?
A: [Name Deleted] opened the door, and [Name Deleted] said "What's going on, A.C.?" I said, "I don't know. It seemed like they got into a fight."
And he said, "Well, O.J.'s in the" - they had like a study or a little room.
Q: So I'm clear, Michelle told you that Simpson and Nicole were fighting?
A: Fighting, right.
Q: And when you talked to [Name Deleted], he told you that Nicole and Simpson had had a fight?
A: No. I think he asked me what was going on, and I said, "I think, you know, that they had a fight."
Q: And that was your impression?
A: Yes, that was my impression.
Q: That they had equally participated in a fight.
A: There was a fight.
Q: It was your impression that Nicole and Simpson had equally participated in a fight with one another?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir. I wasn't there. I don't know what exactly happened between the two of them.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you have any idea what had happened between the two of them?
A: They were pissed off - I mean, she was pissed off. It was obvious that something happened.
Q. Did she tell you at 3:30 in the morning that Simpson had punched her?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did she tell you at 3:30 in the morning when you were over there that he had pulled her hair?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did Nicole tell you at 3:30 in the morning when you were over there that he had split her lip?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did Nicole tell you at 3:30 in the morning when you were over there that Simpson had slapped her?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did Nicole tell you that at 3:30 in the morning when you were over there that Simpson had kicked her?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did Nicole tell you at 3:30 in the morning when you were over there that he had - that Simpson had choked her?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did Nicole tell you at 3:30 in the morning when you went over there that Simpson beat the s--- out of her?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did Nicole tell you at 3:30 in the morning when you went over there that she thought Simpson was going to kill her?
A: I don't remember her saying that.
Q: Is it your testimony that she did not say any of these things to you?
A: I don't remember.
Q: She may have said one or more of these things to you?
A: I don't remember.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Tell me what happened, now, after you arrived at [Name Deleted] 's house.
A: [Name Deleted] and I spoke, and I walked into the little den or the little room that O.J. was in, and he was sitting on the couch -
Q: What was he wearing?
A: I don't know exactly what O.J. was wearing. He had a blanket. I don't know if it was shoulder high or - I mean neck high or just halfway. I guess he was cold or something.
Q: Did he tell you he was cold?
A: I just assumed he was cold. He had a blanket on him.
Q: Okay. Were you concerned for his health at that time?
A Didn't appear to me that he was in any harm.
Q: Okay. What was [Name Deleted] wearing when he opened the door?
A: Pardon?
Q: What was [Name Deleted] wearing when he opened the door?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Was he in nighttime clothing?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Pajamas?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Was it your impression he had been up for while?
A: I don't know how long he was up. He was up. He opened the door.
Q: Did you see [Name Deleted] at that time?
A. I don't remember if I saw [Name Deleted] .
Q: Okay. You had indicated that - Was it your impression that [Name Deleted] was one of Nicole's closest friends?
A: They were friends. I don't know how close, but they were friends.
Q: Would you consider [Name Deleted] at that time one of Nicole's closest friends?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know how close they were. They were friends.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Go on. Tell me what happened after you walked into this room and saw Simpson.
A: I asked him what was going on.
Q: And what did he tell you?
A: He kinda like, oh, said something about - I don't know if he said, "Ah, man, she's crazy." I don't know if he said that.
And I said, "What happened? What started all this?": and I think he said something to the effect that she was accusing him of buying jewelry for someone - some woman or some girl.
Q: What else did he say?
A: He didn't go into any more detail.
Q: Nothing else?
A: He just said - he asked me, would I go - he had - I guess when he had left the first time - I don't know if he did it the second time, but he had taken Nicole's jewelry. It was like a little black velvet -
Q: Jewelry bag?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay.
A: And he said, would I go get it for him, and I said, "Go get it?"
He said, "Yeah. It's in."- he had hid it in a neighbor's house - at a neighbor's house in the garbage can.
Q: And he was telling you Nicole was crazy?
A: He -
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: He said, "Oh, she's crazy." "Crazy" could be used in a loose term as, you know, "Ah, man, that man is crazy."
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Yeah, you used it when you walked into that bathroom in 1977 in San Francisco and Mr. Simpson had thrown all Nicole's clothes out of the window, didn't you?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Misstates the evidence.
THE WITNESS: - Pardon?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Didn't you walk into that bathroom in 1977 when Mr. Simpson had thrown Nicole's clothes out of the window and told him, "Man, you're crazy"?
MR. RE: Are you referring to '77?
THE WITNESS: He's referring to '79.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: '79?
A: I wasn't in San Francisco in '77.
Q: In '79 then. That's exactly what you said to him when you walked in that bathroom?
A: I said, "Are you crazy?"
Q: All right. Okay. Go on. I'm sorry to interrupt you.
A: So I said, "Well, where did you hide it?" He says, "Well, I know I went over" - no, no, I take that back. I take that back. Besides the jewelry bag, he had lost his keys, his car keys, so he - I said, "Well, let's backtrack, and how did you leave?"
So he had went over the [Names Deleted] es' wall. At that time it was - I don't think they had the tennis court then. So I backtracked. I'm climbing over fences and -
Q: Wait a minute. You're still in a room with Mr. Simpson, talking to him.
A: No. I left when he had asked me -
Q: Well, let's not leave yet. We are back there, and Mr. Simpson has told you Nicole's crazy, and then he tells you he hid her jewelry in a neighbor's trash can. Is that correct?
A: That was one of the things. Then he told me that he couldn't find his car keys. He had-
Q: How had he gotten over to [Name Deleted] 's?
A: I guess he must have walked.
Q: Okay. What else did he tell you at that time?
A: He told me to look for his keys and to get the jewelry bag.
Q: Did he tell you why he had taken the jewelry?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you where he had lost the keys?
A: Somewhere between the house and where the - he hid the jewelry.
Q: What was Mr. Simpson wearing, other than a blanket, when you were talking to him at [Name Deleted] 's?
A: I didn't say he was wearing a blanket. I said he had a blanket over him.
Q: Did you see what he had on underneath the blanket?
A: He had clothes on.
Q: Was [Name Deleted] in the room when you were talking to Simpson?
A: He could have been.
Q: Was he?
A: I don't remember.
Q: How long were you at [Name Deleted] 's at this point?
A: After O.J. gave me the directions how to try to find his keys and to -
Q: What directions did he give you to find his keys, first of all?
A: His direction where he went when he left the house with his car keys - with the car keys and with the - oh, let me back up. Let me back up. It wasn't his car keys. It was [Name Deleted]'s car keys to his car.
Q: [Name Deleted]'s car keys -
A: [Name Deleted].
Q: [Name Deleted]'s car keys to [Name Deleted]'s car?
A: Right. I mean, so O.J. must have used his car to come back up there when I saw O.J. when I was in the kitchen.
Q: Okay. So it was your impression that Simpson had been to [Name Deleted] 's and then was back at Rockingham by the time you got there?
A: When he told me it was [Name Deleted] 's keys, I said, "What do you mean, [Name Deleted] 's keys?" He says, "I used [Name Deleted]'s car."
Q: For what?
A: I guess to go back up to the house.
Q: At what time?
A: I guess when I saw him in the dining room.
Q: Okay. And what specific directions did Simpson give you in terms of finding those keys?
A: It was over a fence -
Q: What fence?
A: The [Names Deleted] es.
Q: What type of fence was that?
A: Chain-link fence. It could have been a wooden fence.
Q: Did he indicate to you he had climbed over that chain-link fence?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you go back to that chain-link fence?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see that the prongs on the top of that fence had been bent at all?
A: I don't remember i£ there's any prongs on top of that fence.
Q: Okay. Did you see any indication from the bushes that he had climbed over at that point?
A: No. I was just, you know, retracing his path that he said he took.
Q: Now, did you have any trouble getting over that chain-link fence?
A: I don't know if I went over the chain-link fence or I opened his-the chain-link fence, I don't know if I opened it and walked, but I did find the keys over the wooden fence.
Q: Okay, but that's not what I asked you, Mr. Cowlings. I asked you, did you climb over that chain-link fence at any time?
A: I don't remember climbing over the fence.
Q: Did he tell you that he had climbed over, though?
A: No. He just gave me the path that he went.
Q: Right. Did he tell you his path -
A: He didn't -
Q: Let me finish.
A: He didn't tell me he climbed over the fence. He just said that's the way he went.
Q: Well, let me ask you: Did you find the keys next to a gate?
A: I found the keys next to the fence, the wooden fence at the [Names Deleted] es.
MR. PETROCELLI: He is talking about the property on the other side of the tennis court.
THE WITNESS: Pardon?
MR. PETROCELLI: The property on the other side of the tennis court?
THE WITNESS: I don't know if the [Names Deleted] es had put in their -
MR. PETROCELLI: Other side of O.J.'s tennis court.
THE WITNESS: Yes, that's the [Names Deleted] es' property.
MR. PETROCELLI: Here is one. 85. Wait a second. That's Exhibit 100.
MR. KELLY: It says Exhibit- oh, okay. 100.
Q: I want to ask you to look at this diagram, which is a layout of the Rockingham residence, for a minute, Mr. Cowlings, just to get acquainted with it. Do you recognize that diagram?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And is that the diagram of the Rockingham residence we're discussing?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Now could you tell me or indicate on there first with your finger without making any marks where you looked for Mr. Simpson's keys?
A: I came out where he said from the back, walked (Indicating) - I don't think this pool was here yet (Indicating).
Q: Okay.
A: It was - all this was brick, red brick (Indicating). I came and went across the court, got to the fence (Indicating). I looked around that fence, went through, jumped - no. I walked onto their court. You could walk across their court, and there's like a three-foot little thing, steps. So I went up and I looked around the jacuzzi, I think -
Q: Mr. Simpson didn't indicate he stopped for a jacuzzi there, did he?
A: No.
Q: Okay.
A: I looked around there. I continued towards the - he said he had jumped the wooden fence that runs along Ashford, so I went over -
Q: Not to his property?
A: No. From the [Names Deleted] es. That's - Von - I mean, [Names Deleted] have a - there's brick about three feet, then it's wood.
Q: Right.
A: It goes maybe about five-foot high, four foot. I don't know exactly. So I went to where he approximately said, and I looked around on the house side, inside the yard, and I didn't see it, and when I put my hands up to jump over the fence. I kinda looked down, and I saw the keys had - the brick and the grass right there, there was two keys.
Q: The [Names Deleted] es have a gate that goes onto their property, don't they?
A: Yes.
Q: That's in the corner of the Ashford property there?
A: Things have been redone since - see, a lot of work has been done over there, and a lot of work has been done -
Q: Okay. And I am talking about New Year's morning in 1989 when you went over there. There was a swinging gate, a gate that you could open to walk onto [Names Deleted] es property from Rockingham.
A: Right.
Q: Okay. And that was in the very corner of the property, was it not?
A: No. You talking - I think you talking about the second gate. There's another walkway gate that I went to.
Q: How did you get from Simpson's property onto [Names Deleted] '?
A: There is a gate here (Indicating) off of this court, right -
Q: Right.
A: - in this corner here (Indicating) there is like a cabana here, a kitchen light, and there is a gate right here (Indicating) that leads you into [Names Deleted] ' tennis court.
Q: Okay. How far from that gate did you look for those keys first at that fence?
A: I was looking down the whole time.
Q: I am asking you, how far from the gate did you walk in a southerly fashion along that property line looking for those keys?
A: Southerly fashion?
Q: Well, from this gate -
A: Yes.
Q: - you indicated you had looked in this direction for keys. Is that correct?
A: No. The keys are over here (Indicating). This is Ashford here (Indicating).
Q: I understand that. You indicated first that you looked on either side of a fence for keys, did you not?
A: As soon as I started walking, retracing his steps -
Q: Right.
A: - I was looking down for the keys.
Q: Right. And when you got to that fence at the back of the property that fronts [Names Deleted] property, where did you look there for keys?
A: Which fence are you speaking about now?
Q: The first fence you got to.
A: When I walked - when I got to this gate (Indicating) to lead me into the [Names Deleted] ?
Q: Yeah.
A: What did I do?
Q: Yeah.
A: I was -
Q: Did you stop before the gate?
A: I looked - as I was walking, I was looking down to see if I could see the keys.
Q: Right.
A: Now, I was stopped a few seconds, maybe to take the latch off of this fence -
Q: Before you took the latch off of the fence, had you looked anywhere else along that fence for keys?
A: I looked on the path that he had told me.
Q: Mr. Cowlings -
A: I looked around the fence to see, and I kept -
Q: How far to either side of that gate along -
A: I don't know.
Q: - that fence did you look for the keys?
A: I'm sorry.
Q: Was it more than 10 feet to the right of that gate did you look for the keys?
A: I couldn't tell you.
Q: Was it more than 10 feet to the left of that gate that you looked for the keys?
A: I couldn't tell you.
Q: Did you look anywhere other than right a the gate for the keys?
A: I looked on the ground.
Q: Did you look on the ground to the right of the gate?
A: I looked around.
Q: Did you look anywhere on the ground to the right of the gate for those keys, Mr. Cowlings?
A: I don't know which side, I was looking on the left side or - I looked around the area.
Q: How did Mr. Cowlings tell you he -
A: I'm -
Q: Mr. Simpson. How did Mr. Simpson tell you got from - that he got from [Names Deleted] - I am sorry. Strike that whole question.
How did Mr. Simpson tell you he got from his property onto [Names Deleted] ' property?
A: He never said to me how he got there. Oh, he went - he walked. I mean, I guess either he ran or he walked. I don't know. He didn't go into details how he got there. He just told me how he went when he left his house.
Q: Tell me exactly what he told you in terms of leaving his house, what he did.
A: He told me that he had taken the jewelry and that he had dropped the keys.
Q: And then he told you what route he took also, didn't he?
A: Right.
Q: Tell me what route he told you he took.
A: He went across his tennis court, into the [Names Deleted] es' backyard -
Q: Did he tell you how he got into the [Names Deleted] es' backyard?
A: I just assumed he went through that gate.
Q: Go on.
A: Then he told me that he walked up, jumped - walked up the steps, went across and jumped over the wood frame fence at the [Names Deleted] es.
Q: And how tall is that wood frame fence?
A: Could be five feet, for all I know.
Q: Okay. Is that there today?
A: I don't know what's there today. Somebody bought the house. They could have torn it down, for all I know.
Q: Would you recognize the fence if you saw a picture of it?
A: If it's still there, yes.
Q: Okay. And then where exactly did you find the keys?
A: As I jumped - grabbed to jump the fence from the inside of the yard, as I got - bracing myself up, I looked along and then I spotted the keys wedged between the grass and the brick part of the foundation.
Q: Okay. Two keys on a key ring?
A: It was on something. I don't know exactly if it was a key ring or just a wire circle thing.
Q: Okay. Did you see any of the Simpsons' dogs out when you went through the yard at that time?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Was it light out at that time?
A: Yeah, it was light.
Q: How did you get onto Simpson's property when you went back there?
A: I guess I came through the front door.
Q: Did you go into the house?
A: Probably walked through the house. I don't remember - I don't know if I went through the house or I went around. I don't remember that.
Q: Do you remember how you got through the gate?
A: Probably with my key.
Q: Did you have - you had a key to the gate?
A: I have a key to the house.
Q: And that works on the gate also?
A: Yes, it works the front door and the gate - I mean it works the gate on Rockingham and it opens the front door.
Q: Is it a key or a card?
A: A key.
Q: It's a key. Okay. Do you recall where you parked when you went back over there to look?
A: Maybe I parked on Rockingham, since I was - I had to use the key to open the gate.
Q: And then you manually opened the gate?
A: Automatically. When you put the key and turn it, it automatically opens.
Q: Does it disengage, or does it open all the way by itself?
A: By itself? No. You have to turn this key to open the gate. It stays open for a few seconds. Once it's completely open, then it closes automatically.
Q: Okay. Do you recall whether you parked in the driveway or on the street?
A: No, I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Do you have a specific recollection as to whether you went in the house or not at that time?
A: I don't know.
Q: Can you tell me at this point what time it was, approximately?
A: It was a bright, sunny day. I couldn't tell you exactly what time.
Q: Was it before 8:00 o'clock in the morning?
A: It could have been.
Q: Okay. Did you see Nicole at that time?
A: No.
Q: Did you see Michelle at that time?
A: No.
Q: Did you see anybody at the house at that time?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall knocking on the door?
A: No.
Q: Ringing the doorbell?
A: No.
Q: Checking to see if Nicole was okay?
A: No, not that time.
Q: Did you have any concern for Nicole's safety at that point?
A: Didn't think of it.
Q: Did you have any concern for Nicole's health at that point?
A: Didn't think of it.
Q: Okay. Did you have any concern about Nicole reporting the previous incident to the police at that time?
A: I don't know what Nicole had done.
Q: Okay. All right. Tell me what you did after you found the keys.
A: I got the keys, and the house was on - the house where he hid the jewelry - the house was located on Bristol. It was two houses from the corner, going north. I got to Ashford and Bristol. It was two houses (Indicating) up from the corner. I went back there. I was thinking, I said, here I am jumping fences and stuff; I may get shot, some black guy jumping fences. I'm, you know, thinking to myself, and -
Q: You ever been stopped by the LAPD before this day?
A: This time?
Q: Yeah.
A: This time for what?
Q: For anything.
A: No.
Q: Never in 20 years prior to New Year's Day 1989 LAPD ever stop you for anything?
A: Well, for a traffic violation.
Q: How many times was that?
A: I wouldn't know.
Q: More than once?
A: I guess.
Q Ever get hassled by any cops?
A: No. Always been very nice to me.
Q: Okay. I'm sorry. Go on.
A: So he said it was in the garbage cans down the driveway behind the house. So I went there, picked up the lid, and there it was. And I picked it up and brought the keys - no. I drove [Name Deleted]'s car back. No, no, I didn't. No, I didn't, because I had my car. I may have drove [Name Deleted]'s car back. [Name Deleted] had a souped-up Buick -
THE REPORTER: "Buick"?
THE WITNESS: A Buick, souped-up -
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: A Regal, is that what you said?
A: No. It was a special edition that Buick had put out. It was a very - what we call muscle cars, very powerful. He had like a -
Q: V-12 or something?
A: He had a turbo thing to it. So I think I brought his car back. I think I did, because [Name Deleted] wanted me to bring his car back.
Q: Where was [Name Deleted]'s car parked at that time?
A: His car?
Q: Yeah.
A: It was parked - the black car was parked -
Q: [Name Deleted] 's car was black?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: It was parked on Ashford and Bristol, facing west on Ashford.
Q: So how many doors down from Rockingham was that?
A: Two houses, O.J.'s house and [Names Deleted] ' house.
Q: And then in front of [Names Deleted] was [Name Deleted] 's car?
A: Yeah, parked across from [Names Deleted] ' house.
Q: Did Simpson indicate to you when he had parked that car there?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you how he had gotten back into the house after parking the car there?
A: No.
Q: Was it your impression that Simpson had gone through [Names Deleted] ' property and into the back of his property and got back in the house after he had [Name Deleted] 's car?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know how he got back into the house.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you know why [Name Deleted] 's car just wasn't parked in the driveway at Rockingham?
A: I have no knowledge.
Q: Did Simpson tell you why he had taken the jewelry?
A: I don't know. I don't remember what he had said. He said -
Q: Did you ask him why he had taken Nicole's jewelry?
A: He said the jewelry was his and hers, and I guess - I never looked in the bag. He claimed that his jewelry was in there and her jewelry was in there.
Q: Did he say why he had taken the jewelry?
A: No.
Q: Did you ask him?
A: No.
Q: And you never looked in the bag?
A: No.
Q: Was the bag heavy?
A: What do you mean by that "heavy"?
Q: Well, was there some weight to it?
A: Yeah, there was some weight to it.
Q: Okay. More than a couple pounds?
A: I don't know.
Q: And what happened after you found the bag?
A: I -
Q: By the way, did you see anybody at all while you were climbing through everybody's backyards and garbage cans and things?
A: I was hoping nobody would see me.
Q: Did you ever find out that anybody had seen you?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: All right. Go on. What happened after you found the jewelry bag in the garbage can?
A: I took it back to him and -
Q: You drove [Name Deleted] 's car back, first of all?
A: Yeah, drove [Name Deleted] 's car back, and I walked into - he was still in that little den room and -
Q: Did he still have his blanket over him?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did he have an ice pack on his head or anything?
A: I don't remember that. I don't remember seeing an ice pack.
Q: Did he indicate to you he was injured in any way?
A: He didn't say so to me.
Q: Okay. So who did you see when you first got back to [Name Deleted] 's house again?
A: Probably [Name Deleted].
Q: What, if anything, did you say to him?
A: At that point I think we all were somewhat - I mean, because nobody knew vaguely anything, I mean, outside of what O.J. said. I mean -
Q: Well, Simpson knew something, didn't he?
A: I guess he did. He was there.
Q: And he wasn't telling you?
A: He wasn't telling me.
Q: And he wasn't telling [Name Deleted] ?
A: Didn't sound like it when [Name Deleted] asked me what happened.
Q: Okay. And you didn't ask him?
A: He didn't volunteer.
Q: He didn't want to talk about it, did he?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lacks foundation. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: That I don't know. He didn't tell me anything.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: He didn't offer you anything?
A: Not that I can remember.
Q: Okay. So tell me what [Name Deleted] said when you first got back there.
A: Pardon?
Q: Could you tell me what [Name Deleted] said to you when you first returned back to his house?
A: I don't know if he said, "Did you find the keys" or "Did you get my car?" I said, "Yes. I don't know if he said, "What's going on? What's happening?" I really don't know what exactly [Name Deleted] said to me when I got back.
Q: Okay. Did you tell him you had the keys?
A: Yeah, I put his car back.
Q: Did you show [Name Deleted] the jewelry bag you had?
A: I don't know if he saw it in my hand. I don't know if I said "Here it is: or not. I don't know. I don't remember. I still had it in my hand.
Q: Okay. When you went back to Rockingham this time, did Mr. Simpson ask you to check on Nicole?
A: I don't remember him saying that.
Q: Okay. His only concern was the jewelry?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what his concern was. He asked me to find the keys and get the jewelry back.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did [Name Deleted] ask you to check on Nicole at all?
A: Not that I can remember.
Q: Okay. Was [Name Deleted]'s only concern that you recall was his car?
A: He asked me to get his car, bring his car back. I don't know -
Q: Did Mr. [Name Deleted] show any concern about anything other than getting his car back?
A: I don't know what he was concerned about.
Q: Did he ask you about anything other than his car at that time?
A: I guess what was going on.
Q: Did you know?
A: At the time, no, I didn't know. I was just as confused as everybody else.
Q: Did [Name Deleted] ask you anything about Nicole?
A: I don't remember. He could have.
Q: Okay. The only thing you remember [Name Deleted] talking about was getting his car back, though?
A: Yeah, he wanted his car back.
MR. KELLY: Could you read the last question back, please.
(Question read.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Can you answer that with a yes or no, Mr. Cowlings?
MR. RE: He's already told you he talked about something else to him, so -
THE WITNESS: I don't remember - all I know, [Name Deleted], you know, he wanted his car back, and whatever else he said, I don't remember.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. The only thing you remember [Name Deleted] talking to you about was getting his car back?
A: Yeah, because -
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I am sorry?
A: Well, I knew it had to be the car because -
MR. KELLY: Did you get the previous answer down?
(Discussion held off the record.)
(Record read.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And the only thing you recall at that time Mr. Simpson asking you to check on were [Name Deleted]'s keys and the jewelry. Is that correct also?
A: He told me to find the keys and get the jewelry back.
Q: Other than those two things, did he ask you to do anything else? Yes or no.
A: I don't remember.
Q: As far as you remember, Mr. Cowlings, did Mr. Simpson ask you to do anything other then get the keys and get the jewelry?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you not remember that you don't remember?
A: You asked me things, and I'm giving you my answer.
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I am just trying to get a simple yes or no out of a simple question.
A: If I could tell you definitely, I will tell you, sir. I don't know definitely. I don't remember.
Q: What did - I assume you gave the jewelry bag to Mr. Simpson?
A: Yes.
Q: What did he say when you gave it back to him?
A: He was just talking, babbling off about stuff.
Q: Could you be a little more specific than that about what he was babbling about?
A: I didn't stay there that long.
Q: Then it wasn't a long conversation, was it?
A: Not with me.
Q: Okay. Well, can you tell me what he said in that short period of time to you?
A: I don't remember. He was just- O.J. was just talking.
Q: Well, in general terms can you tell me what he was talking about?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Was he talking about Nicole at all?
A: He could have been.
Q: Do you have any general recollection at all of him talking about Nicole?
A: No, I do not have a general.
Q: You remember very specifically that Mr. Simpson said that Nicole was crazy, do you not?
A: He said something to that terms, "Oh, she's crazy." That was at the - when I first saw him that morning.
Q: In fact, he said that she's crazy in the context of him going through two fences and jumping around and losing car keys and hiding jewelry bags in garbage cans, did he not?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And you have no recollection as you sit here today what Mr. Simpson was babbling about after you gave him the jewelry bag?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Was he upset at that time?
A: He was nervous.
Q: Why did you think he was nervous?
A: He seemed like he was nervous.
Q: What was he nervous about?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
(Discussion held off the record.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: At any time when you were over at [Name Deleted] 's, did Simpson indicate to you the police were looking for him?
A: I think he did mention to me - I don't know if he mentioned it to me or [Name Deleted] did.
Q: What did [Name Deleted] say to you?
A: [Name Deleted] was kinda like - because O.J. woke him up, and it was very confusing for [Name Deleted] and -
Q: Why was it very confusing for him?
A: He was woke up. O.J.'s knocking at his door.
Q: Is that how he told you he woke up?
A: I mean, you go to the door and you see a friend of yours outside your door. I don't know what time it was. It had to be early in the morning.
Q: What I am asking you is: Did [Name Deleted] tell you that Simpson came knocking on his door early in the morning?
A: I think, yeah.
Q: Okay. What else did [Name Deleted] tell you?
A: He didn't - outside of that, he didn't know. He just said O.J. was babbling.
Q: A minute ago I asked you about the police, and you indicated [Name Deleted] had said something about the police. What did [Name Deleted] say?
A: I don't know if O.J. told me that the police had came or [Name Deleted] had told me the police had came.
Q: Okay. What had someone - That had come where?
A: Had came to the house on Rockingham.
Q: Okay. Do you recall what you heard regarding the police?
A: I don't know if the conversation - who said the - it probably came out of O.J.'s mouth, that the police - he went - when he pulled out of his driveway - I think - I don't know how Nicole - all I know, he said that the police were coming after him. He went out the driveway. He went one way, they went the other way, so he lost them.
Q: Okay. Was it your impression the police were still looking for Simpson as he sat there in [Name Deleted] 's room.'
A: I don't know.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did he indicate or was he nervous, was Mr. Simpson nervous that the police were still looking for him?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know if they were still looking for him. He was nervous. I don't know what he was nervous about.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Was he nervous that he was going to be arrested for beating the s--- out of Nicole?
MR. LEONARD: Objection -
THE WITNESS: I don't -
MR. LEONARD: - calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: - know that sir.
MR. BREWER: Mr. Cowlings, if he starts making objections, would you let him finish so we can hear you answers, because I didn't hear what you were saying because you were talking.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What happened next after Simpson babbled for that short period of time?
A: I left to go up to the house to check on Nicole.
Q: Did Simpson seem disoriented at all when you were talking to him at that time?
A: He seemed to be confused somewhat.
Q: Did he ask you to go up to the house and check on Nicole?
A: No.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Why don't we take our morning break now.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 11:20.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 11:38.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And, Mr. Cowlings, what did you do after leaving [Name Deleted]'s house at this time where you just returned with the keys and the jewelry bag?
A: What did I do once I left [Name Deleted]'s house?
Q: Yeah. You did leave there, didn't you?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Okay. And what did you do next?
A: I went by the house to see Nicole.
Q: Okay. Did you have any bearing as to what time it was then?
A: Still in the early morning. I don't know if it was 8:00 o'clock, 8:30. I don't know for sure.
Q: Somewhere in that time range, though?
A: Probably.
Q: Okay. And did you drive your car back to Rockingham?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you recall where you parked when you got back there?
A: Probably on the street. Maybe on Rockingham.
Q: Okay. Did you buzz to get in at that point?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. What did you do when you got there?
A: Went inside the house to check on her. She was in the kitchen.
Q: When you got there again, she was in the kitchen again?
A: Yeah. She was sitting down.
Q: Was anybody - did you see anybody else before you saw Nicole?
A: Not that I remember. She was holding the baby. I think she was feeding the baby.
Q: Which baby are we talking about?
A: Must have been Sydney. Yeah, it was Sydney, I guess, yeah.
Q: Well, you're sure it was Sydney?
A: When was Justin born?
Q: Shortly before this.
A: Could have been Justin.
Q: Was it an infant she was feeding at that time?
A: I think so.
Q: Was she giving whatever baby was there a bottle, do you know, or...
A: I don't know if it was a bottle or she was hand-feeding it, you know, feeding it from a little jar.
Q: Okay. And was anybody else in the kitchen with her and the baby?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Could you tell me what she was wearing at that time?
A: She could have had a robe on.
Q: Okay. What, if anything, did you say to her when you walked in the kitchen?
A: Asked her how she felt, was she all right.
Q: What did she tell you?
A: I don't know if she told me then - she could have probably told me her head hurts. She could have told me that her head hurts.
Q: Did she tell you anything else?
A: I don't know if - I think I got up and walked over to her and -
Q: You got up from where?
A: From where I was sitting - and walked over to her and looked at her, because I think she was like touching her head up in this area, something like that (Indicating).
Q: Indicating the upper-right forehead area?
A: I don't know what side it was. All I remember is she was, you know, like touching her head (Indicating), saying - -
Q: You are indicating the right side of you forehead with your right hand.
A: Well, I am just doing that just to show that she did it. She could have done it on the left, for all I know.
Q: Okay. Did you happen to look at her head at that time?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And what did you see?
A: It was red.
Q: Was there any swelling there?
A: I didn't touch it, so I wouldn't know.
Q: Did you look at it?
A: I looked at it. It was red.
Q: Did you see any swelling there when you looked at it?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Did you see a bump?
A: No.
Q: Okay. What happened next?
A: I said, "You okay?" And she said, "Yeah. It just hurts." So I said, "You want me to take you to the hospital?" And she said, "No."
Q: Was she having any difficulty speaking at that time?
A: No.
Q: Did she indicate to you that she had called a doctor prior to your arrival there?
A: No.
Q: Did she indicate that she had spoken to the police again?
A: No.
Q: What, if anything else, did you talk about when you were in the kitchen with her at that point?
A: I can't remember exactly what we talked about.
Q: When you looked at her forehead, did she tell you what had happened to it?
A: I think she said he had pulled her hair.
Q: Other than pulling her hair, what else did she tell you he had done to her?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Was that an injury she was showing to you when she pointed to her head that you came over and looked at?
A: She just - when she said her head was hurting, she rubbed the spot, I guess, that was hurting.
Q: Okay. And show me exactly where she rubbed.
A: I don't remember exactly. I don't know what side of the head that she rubbed.
Q: What part of her head was it?
A: Towards, I guess, up in this area somewhere (Indicating).
Q: Above the hairline?
A: Yeah.
Q: You didn't see any bruises below the hairline on her forehead?
A: No.
Q: Did you observe any bruise above her right eye?
A: No.
Q: Did you observe any lump above her right eye?
A: No.
Q: Did you observe any bump on her right cheek?
A: No.
Q: Did you observe any bruise on her right cheek?
A: No.
Q: Did you observe a split lip?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you she had a cut on the inside of her mouth?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you her jaw hurt?
A: No.
Q: Did you see scratches anywhere on her face?
A: No.
Q: Did you see a hand print on her neck?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you Simpson had hit her?
A: She could have told me that.
Q: Did she tell you that he had - that Simpson had hit her?
A: She could have. I don't remember exactly if she did or not.
Q: Did she say something to the effect that Mr. Simpson had hit her?
A: I don't remember if she exactly said that.
Q: Did she say something to that effect, that Mr. Simpson had hit her?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
MR. KELLY: Not answered.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did she -
A: I don't remember - it's something - she did mention - I mean, she - like I said, that she - you know, that he hit her.
Q: Did she mention that to you?
A: Yes. If - I think she did mention to me that he did hit her.
Q: And this was in the morning at Rockingham?
A: Morning?
Q: New Year's morning in the Rockingham kitchen that she told you this.
A: No. She told me that at the - when I was sitting in front of her with the baby.
Q: In the kitchen.
A: Which part of the morning?
Q: When you walked in, she was sitting there feeding the baby.
A: Yeah.
Q: And she told you he had hit her.
A: I think so, yes.
Q: Okay. Was she still upset at that time?
A: Uh-huh. Yes.
Q: Was she still angry at that time?
A: Yes.
Q: Still obviously emotionally disturbed about what had happened earlier that day?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: She wasn't crying or speaking loudly.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: No. But she was clearly upset.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Leading.
THE WITNESS: She could have been.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: In your opinion was she upset at that time, still?
A: Yes.
Q: And was upset about what had happened earlier that morning between her and Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Probably.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. What else - Did she tell you that Mr. Simpson had slapped her?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you Mr. Simpson had scratched her?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you Mr. Simpson had kicked her?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you Mr. Simpson had choked her?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you Mr. Simpson had beat the s--- out of her?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you Mr. Simpson had tried to kill her?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you she was afraid of Mr. Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you she didn't want him back in the house?
A: I don't remember her saying that, no.
Q: Did she indicate to you she wanted him back in the house?
A: No.
Q: Did she indicate to you she wanted to see him?
A: No.
Q: Did she indicate to you she wanted to speak to him?
A: No.
Q: Was it your impression that she was still very angry at Mr. Simpson?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation.
BY MR., KELLY:
Q: I am sorry. I didn't hear you.
A: Well, you told me to wait. Yes.
Q: Okay. What happened next after - What else did she tell you at that point?
A: She just wanted to be left alone.
Q: Did she tell you that?
A: Yes.
Q: Was she mad at you?
A: No. So I said, "Okay."
Q: Did you tell her where Mr. Simpson was at that point?
A: She didn't ask.
Q: Did you tell her where he was?
A: No.
Q: Okay. How long were you in the kitchen for at this point?
A: Few minutes. You know, she seemed - said she was okay, and when I asked her did she want me to take her to the hospital, she said "No." I said, "You gonna be okay?" And she said, "Yes."
Q: Then what happened next?
A: I think I drove - I don't know if I went home to change clothes or if I went back down to [Name Deleted]'s. I think I called Wayne.
Q: Where did you call him from?
A: I think I called him - I don't know if I went back to my apartment or I went down to [Name Deleted]'s, but I called Wayne.
Q: Well, when was the last - when was the next time you were at [Name Deleted] 's that you can remember?
A: Well, I eventually did go back to [Name Deleted]. I don't know if I went directly from O.J.'s house to [Name Deleted] or I went home first to change, because prior to all this happening Wayne and O.J. and myself had made plans to go to the Rose Bowl. SC was playing - I think SC was playing in the Rose Bowl that day.
Q: Okay. And do you know what time you called Wayne Hughes?
A: Early enough where I could tell him that I wasn't going to go, so he'd have time to use the ticket for someone else.
Q: Why weren't you going to the Rose Bowl?
A: I was upset to what had happened.
Q: Were you upset about what happened to Nicole?
A: Nicole and the whole situation.
Q: Okay. "What did you tell Wayne Hughes?
A: I told him that it was a fight between O.J. and Nicole.
Q: From what you had seen and heard so far, was it still your belief that it was a fight between two people?
A: Seemed to be, yes.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me what your impression was of who had won the fight and who had lost the fight?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: That I don't know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did Simpson tell you Nicole had pulled his hair?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson tell you that Nicole had hit him in the face?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson tell you Nicole had slapped him?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson tell you that Nicole had scratched him?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson tell you that Nicole had choked him?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson tell you that Nicole had kicked him?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson tell you that Nicole beat the s--- out of him?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson tell you Nicole tried to kill him?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson tell you he had to call 911 because of what Nicole was doing to him?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson tell you that the police were out looking for Nicole after the fight they had had?
A: No.
Q: Okay. When did you go back to [Name Deleted] 's house again?
A: I don't know exactly what time I went back. I went back to inform O.J. that I wasn't going to the Rose Bowl. He said he - that he was going.
Q: Simpson told you he was going?
A: Yeah, he was still going to the Rose Bowl.
Q: He did go, didn't he?
A: Yeah, as far as I know.
Q: Okay. Who did you see when you went back to [Name Deleted] 's house again?
A: I don't remember. It could have been, I guess - I don't know. People could have been up by then.
Q: Did you see [Name Deleted] again when you went back there?
A: Yes, I saw [Name Deleted], yes.
Q: Okay. Did you have any conversations with him?
A: I think I did. I think he had asked me how was Nicole.
Q: And what did you tell him?
A: I told him she didn't feel that well, her head was hurting, and she was pissed off.
Q: Did you tell him why her head was hurting?
A: I don't remember if I told him.
Q: Did you tell [Name Deleted] that Simpson had hit Nicole?
A: I don't remember saying that.
Q: Okay. And what, if anything else, did [Name Deleted] say to you?
A: Just said that O.J. was talking a lot, babbling.
Q: Did he tell you what Simpson was babbling about?
A: No. Just like he - [Name Deleted] said he didn't make any sense.
Q: What did you say?
A: Well, there was nothing to say. He said it. I just stood there.
Q: What, if anything - Did you talk to Simpson when you went back there again?
A: I think - I told him that Nicole was all right. I mean, she said she was all right.
Q: Did you tell him about her head hurting?
A: Yeah, I did tell him that.
Q: What did he say?
A: I don't remember what his reply was.
Q: Did he ask you to take her to the hospital?
A: No.
Q: Did he ask you to call a doctor?
A: No.
Q: Did he pick up the phone and call Nicole when you told him that?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did he indicate to you that he was going to go over there himself and check on her?
A: No.
Q: Did he call the Browns, if you know?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Did he say anything to indicate to you he had any concern for Nicole's health after you told him her head was hurting?
A: I felt that he was concerned.
Q: "Why did you feel that?"
A: By the look on his face.
Q: Did he say anything?
A: No. Seemed like he had a sad look on his face.
Q: Did he say anything?
A: Not that I remember, no.
Q: Did he call Wayne Hughes while you were there at [Name Deleted] 's?
A: They did talk. I don't know if - I don't know if I called Wayne back or if O.J. called Wayne. They did talk while -
Q: Did you tell Wayne that the police had been called to Rockingham?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did - when you went back there this last time to [Name Deleted] 's, did Simpson indicate to you he had already spoken to Hughes?
A: No. Uh-uh.
Q: Okay. Did he call Wayne Hughes then after you had told him you weren't going to the Rose Bowl?
A: Pardon?
Q: Do you know whether Simpson called Wayne Hughes after you told Simpson you weren't going to the Rose Bowl?
A: I don't remember if he called him.
Q: When you talked to Wayne Hughes, did Hughes indicate to you that he had already spoke to Simpson?
A: I don't remember if he did or not.
Q: Okay. What happened next after you went back end told Simpson you weren't going to the Rose Bowl?
A: I just said I was going to stay around the area, and if Nicole needed me, that I'll be there for her, so -
Q: What did he say?
A: He said, "Will you take me by the house?" So I said, "Okay."
Q: And did you?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did he say why he wanted to go by the house?
A: No.
Q: Had Simpson taken a shower yet?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Can you tell me what clothes he was wearing at that time?
A: I don't remember what clothes he had on.
Q: When he asked you to take him by Rockingham, was he appropriately dressed to go to the Rose Bowl at that time?
A: I don't remember what O.J. had on.
Q: Do you remember whether he even had shoes on?
A: I didn't look at his whole attire. I just assumed, you know, he was dressed. What he had on was shoes. If he had on tennis shoes or street shoes, I don't know.
Q: Okay. You drove him back to Rockingham then?
A: Yes, we drove and we came up - and he wanted me to go - come up Bristol and come back - go north on Bristol, turn left, west, and come south back down Rockingham, about two blocks up.
Q: Why was that?
A: At that time he was telling me that the police - he felt that the police were still looking for him.
Q: Okay. Were you checking to see if the police were parked out front? Is that why you took that route?
A: When I got there I realized, yeah that's the reason why.
Q: Okay. Did he tell you that?
A: I saw a police car.
Q: Parked in front?
A: It had pulled - I don't know if he had just pulled up or how long he had been there, but it was at the gate on Rockingham.
Q: What, if anything, did you do when you saw the police car?
A: He asked me to take him back down to [Name Deleted]'s.
Q: And did you?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have a - did you have a car phone at that time?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a cellular phone at that time?
A: No.
Q: Did Simpson have a cellular phone with him?
A: I didn't see one.
Q: Okay. Other than him asking you - other than Simpson asking you to take him back to [Name Deleted] 's, what else did he say to you after he saw the police?
A: He was going to the Rose Bowl. He was getting ready - the game - I don't know what time it started, but he was preparing - I don't know if he drove over to Wayne's or Wayne came there to get him, because I think I left.
Q: Okay. So when you left, Nicole's head was hurting. Is that correct?
A: When I left?
Q: Rockingham.
A: Yes, the second time, she said her head was hurting.
Q: Okay. And she was still visibly upset.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And Mr. Simpson knew the police were looking for him at that time.
A: Yeah, that's the impression that I got.
Q: Okay. And you told Mr. Simpson that Nicole's head hurt at that time.
A: Uh-huh. Yes.
Q: Okay. And he told you he was going to the Rose Bowl.
A: He didn't - I didn't say that - he didn't say when I said her head was hurting, "Oh, I'm going to the Rose Bowl."
Q: But he knew her head was hurting at that time.
A: When I told him, yes.
Q: And you told him you weren't going because you were too upset about what had happened already.
A: And I was going to stay for her if she needed me.
Q: Okay. And he was going to go to the Rose Bowl.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: Eventually he did.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did he tell you he was going to the Rose Bowl?
A: He went to the Rose Bowl. If he decided then and there, I don't know. If he decided within the conversation between him and Wayne to go, I don't know.
Q: He never told you he wasn't going to the Rose Bowl, did he?
A: No.
Q: Okay. What happened after you took Simpson back to [Name Deleted] 's house and dropped him off?
A: I dropped him off and I went home.
Q: Did you go into the house again?
A: I don't remember if I did or not.
Q: Did you see [Name Deleted] again?
A: I don't remember if I did -
Q: Okay.
A: - at that time.
Q Who did you speak to next after you went home?
A: I don't know if I spoke to - spoke with anyone. I don't remember.
Q: Do you remember speaking to Ron Shipp at all that day?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you watch the Rose Bowl on TV that day?
A: I probably did. I eventually did go back over to Alan's, so I probably did watch the Rose Bowl from Alan's house.
Q: Is that your recollection, that you watched the Rose Bowl at Alan's house that day?
A: Yes, I think so.
Q: Okay. When you went back over to watch the Rose Bowl, did you have any further conversation with [Name Deleted] about what had happened earlier that day?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me what you said to [Name Deleted] ?
A: [Name Deleted] was telling me how, you know, O.J. was looking nervous, scared. I think his lips had dried out, like white lips or something like that, and he just said O.J. was just talking.
Q: Was it in your opinion unusual behavior for Simpson, from what you had observed?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did [Name Deleted] indicate that it was unusual, the way Simpson was acting, also?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. What else did the two of you talk about? Did you talk about the fact the police were looking for Simpson?
A: I think so. Probably did. We talked about how - [Name Deleted] said, "Well, how could it happen? We was having so much fun, and we were having a good time at the party. What happened when they got home?" I said, "I really don't know."
Q: Did he tell you what happened?
A: Who?
Q: [Name Deleted] .
A: No. I don't think [Name Deleted] knew what happened.
Q: Okay. Did you see [Name Deleted] that day?
A: Could have.
Q: Did you talk to her at all about what had happened early that morning?
A: I could have talked to her briefly.
Q: Do you recall in general terms what you may have talked to her about?
A: No, I can't.
Q: Okay. Who else was over at [Name Deleted] 's besides [Name Deleted] and [Name Deleted] ?
A: I really don't know. I don't know who was there.
Q: Do you know how Simpson got any of the clothes he wore to the Rose Bowl that day?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Do you know whether he had gone back to Rockingham at all prior to going to the Rose Bowl?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Did anybody tell you he had gone back there at all prior to going back to the Rose Bowl?
A: No.
Q: Did you have a second conversation with Wayne Hughes prior to the Rose Bowl?
A: I don't remember if I had a second conversation with him.
Q: Did you call Nicole at all during the time you were at [Name Deleted] 's house watching the Rose Bowl?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. What did you say to her?
A: I told her where I was if she needed me.
Q: Did you have any other conversation with her besides that?
A: That was it.
Q: And what did she say?
A: She said, "Okay."
Q: Okay. Was that the only time you talked to her when you were at [Name Deleted] 's?
A: I don't remember if I did talk to her again.
Q: MR. KELLY: Okay. We have to stop to change the tape.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 1 of Volume II. The time is approximately 12:04, and we are off the record.
(Pause in the proceedings.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 12:07. This is the beginning of tape No. 2 of Volume II.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, after you had called Nicole and let her know that you were at [Name Deleted] 's house, when was the next time you spoke to her?
A: After the Rose Bowl O.J. came back to [Name Deleted], and -
Q: Were you still there?
A: Yes, I was still there - and he asked me to take him by the house.
Q: Again.
A: Yes.
Q: By the way, when you were watching the Rose Bowl, did you watch any of the pre-game show?
A: I don't remember if I did or not.
Q: Do you remember seeing Simpson at all on TV that day?
A: I don't remember seeing him.
Q: Okay. How long after the game ended did Simpson show up at [Name Deleted] 's?
A: It was dark. 7:00, 7:30, somewhere right in there, I guess.
Q: That's a 1:00 o'clock game, isn't it?
A: It could have been a 3:00 o'clock game. Sometimes the Rose Bowl is played at 3:00 for the East Coast. So it would be 1:00 o'clock - no. It could have been 1:00. It could have been 3:00. I really don't know.
Q: Okay. But you recall it was dark when he got home.
A: It was dark.
Q: Okay. What did you say when he - I am sorry. When he came back, who was at [Name Deleted] 's at that time?
A: I don't remember if was just [Name Deleted] and I and his family or maybe some other people that was there. I really don't know.
Q: Okay. And how long was Simpson at [Name Deleted] 's before he asked you to take him back to Rockingham?
A: I don't know. He sit down, and I think he had a glass of water or a glass of juice or something like that. It could have been a few minutes. It could have been 10 minutes.
Q: Did he seem nervous at that time?
A: Seemed-seemed to be nervous.
Q: Okay. And what did you do then when he asked you to take him to Rockingham?
A: I guess I said okay, because we went.
Q: Okay. Did you have any conversation on the way over there?
A: I don't remember if we did or not.
Q: Did you take the same route there that you had earlier that day when you drove him there?
A: I think we could have. You talking about the second time I took him?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yes, I think we did.
Q: Okay. And when you approached the front gates, did you see any police there that time?
A: No.
Q: Okay. So what happened next?
A: Went into the house.
Q: Did you go in with him, by the way?
A: Yeah. Oh, yes.
Q: Why do you say, "Oh, yes"?
A: Because I wanted to be there.
Q: Why?
A: Because I didn't want nothing else to happen.
Q: Why did you think something else might happen?
A: It was just a precaution.
Q: How was Simpson acting at that time?
A: He was calm.
Q: Okay. Did he ask you to come in the house with him?
A: No, I don't know if he did or not.
Q: Did he tell you not to come in the house with him?
A: No.
Q: Okay. What happened next?
A: We walked in. Nicole was in the kitchen sitting down, and she was feeding the baby and -
Q: Just one baby?
A: She was feeding a baby. I don't know if she was feeding two or one. She was feeding-
Q: Let me ask you, Sydney was about three and a half at this time.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And Justin was just several months old. Do you recall seeing Nicole in the kitchen with both the children at any time?
A: I don't remember. All I know, she was holding a child. It could have...
Q: I am listening. Is that the end of your answer?
A: No. I mean, she was - she could have been feeding Justin.
Q: Okay. What happened next?
A: O.J. was trying to talk to Nicole.
Q: How was he trying to talk to her?
A: Calmly or - I don't know. He was saying he was sorry.
Q: What did he say he was sorry for?
A: He didn't go into details. He just, you know, apologized.
Q: Did Nicole apologize to him?
A: Nicole didn't say anything.
Q: Did she say she was sorry to him?
A: She didn't say anything.
Q: Okay.
A: I don't know how much - I don't know how long we were there, and she said - I said, "Nicole, are you feeling okay?" And I noticed there was some "swelling somewhere around - it could have been on this side (Indicating) or it could have been on that side (Indicating), and I said -
Q: Are you indicating directly above one of her eyes?
A: Yeah, I think, yeah, in that area, somewhere in that area.
Q: And I said, "Nicole are you all right?" And she said, "My head hurts." I said, "Nicole, why don't you let me take you to the hospital." And she said, "No."
Q: I said, "Nicole, you know, you may have a concussion, and the worst thing you can do is to go to sleep."
And then O.J. said something about, "Baby, you should let A.C take you to the hospital."
Q: What did she say to him when he said that?
A: She didn't reply to him. And I asked her again, and she said - I said, "Come on, Nic, let's go."
Q: And what did she say?
A: She said, "Okay."
Q: Did Simpson tell you to take her to the hospital?
A: He suggested that she should go to the hospital with me.
Q: I am sorry. I didn't hear you. He -
A: When I asked her and she refused, he says - I think he said, "Baby, you should let A.C take you to the hospital."
Q: And that was the only suggestion he made to her?
A: As far as I can remember, yes.
Q: Did you see her looking for any aspirin at that time?
A: I don't know if she took anything. She didn't look for aspirins then.
Q: Did she ask you for any aspirin?
A: Not that I can remember, no.
Q: Did she indicate to you she was looking for aspirin?
A: No.
Q: When you were in the kitchen earlier that day when she was feeding the baby also, that morning, did she indicate to you at that time she was looking for aspirin?
A: No.
Q: Did she indicate to you in that morning that she had a hangover?
A: No.
Q: Did she indicate to you that she had had too much to drink the night before?
A: No, she didn't.
Q: That evening when you were in the kitchen with Simpson, did she indicate to you that she had a hangover from the night before?
A: No.
Q: Did she indicate to you she had had too much to drink the night before?
A: No.
Q: Was it your impression that the only reason she had to go to the hospital was because she had been hit the night before?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: That I don't know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did she just stop what she was doing right then and go to the hospital?
A: I think she - I think she changed clothes, and she made arrangements -
Q: How did she make arrangements?
A: For the babies. I assume that Michelle was there -
Q: Had you seen Michelle at all this entire day?
A: I don't remember seeing Michelle.
Q: But you never saw Michelle in the kitchen keeping an eye on Nicole?
A: I don't remember seeing her. Her room was off the kitchen. She could have been in her room.
Q: But any time you were there, you never saw Michelle?
A: I don't remember seeing her.
Q: Okay. And both times you were there Nicole was taking care of the children?
A: Yeah. I don't know if Sydney was somewhere - I don't know if Sydney - because Sydney had a tendency of laying on the couch right there and watch TV. She would lay on her back. It was like a cushion on a couch in the kitchen. That was Sydney's favorite spot.
Q: After Nicole went upstairs to get ready, what did she do with Justin, who she had been feeding?
A: I don't know if he was asleep or she put him to bed or I don't know if she gave Justy to Michelle. I really don't know.
Q: Well, how long did you have to wait for Nicole before you could take her to the hospital?
A: Not too long. It was very short.
Q: Was Simpson there also?
A: He was still there.
Q: I am sorry. I didn't hear the -
A: He was still there.
Q: Okay. Did you have any conversation with him when Nicole was upstairs?
A: Not that I remember.
Q: Did he indicate to you he thought Nicole might have a concussion?
A: No.
Q: Did he indicate to you any concern that Nicole might have a concussion?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did he ever indicate to you that he thought Nicole had a hangover?
A: He didn't say anything to me about that.
Q: Did he say anything to you about Nicole having just drank too much the night before?
A: Not at that time. Excuse me. Not at that time.
Q: Did he at any time?
A: Yes, later on.
Q: Later on that day?
A: No. A day later or it could have been two days later.
Q: What did he tell you?
A: That both of them had been drinking.
Q: Okay. Did anybody else come to the hospital besides you and Nicole?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall what hospital you went to?
A: It was in Santa Monica. I think it was St. John's.
Q: Okay. Did you make any calls yourself before you took Nicole to the hospital?
A: Not that I remember, no.
Q: Did you ask Simpson to come to the hospital with you?
A: No.
Q: Did he offer to come to the hospital with you?
A: No.
Q: Did Nicole tell him not to come to the hospital with you?
A: No.
Q: Did she indicate to you that she didn't want him coming to the hospital with her?
A: No.
Q: Did she indicate to him that she didn't want him coming to the hospital with her?
A: No.
Q: Did he make any effort to get in the car with you when you were taking her to the hospital?
A: No.
Q: Did he indicate in anyway that he wanted to accompany her to the hospital?
A: No.
Q: Did she indicate in anyway to you that she did not want him to accompany her to the hospital?
A: No.
MR. KELLY: Okay, why don't we break here for lunch.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 12:18.
(At the hour of 12:18 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:18 p.m.)
(At the hour of 1:40 p.m., the deposition of ALLEN COWLINGS was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 1:41.
EXAMINATION (Resumed)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Good afternoon, Mr. Cowlings. When you took Nicole to the hospital, did anybody else accompany you -
A: No.
Q: - to the hospital? And do you remember the name of the hospital you went to?
A: I think it was St. John's.
Q: Okay.
A: In Santa Monica.
Q: And do you recall approximately what time that was that you went there?
A: It was in the evening time.
Q: Okay. And did you have any conversation with Nicole when you were going to the hospital?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you say to her?
A: She was doing most of the talking.
Q: And what was she saying?
A: About how bad she felt and how O.J. hit her and that she wanted him to pay for it.
Q: When you say "how bad she felt," do you mean how bad she felt physically?
A: She didn't tell me that she felt - that she just felt bad. That she felt bad. Probably physically and mentally, too.
Q: Okay. And other than saying that she felt bad and that O.J. had hit her, what else did she tell you?
A: She expressed to me then the reason that the fight started.
Q: Did she tell you on the way to the hospital how many times O.J. had hit her?
A: I don't remember if she did or not. No, I don't remember.
Q: Did she tell you on the way to the hospital if O.J. had slapped her?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did she tell you on the way to the hospital that O.J. had kicked her?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did she tell you on the way to the hospital that O.J. had choked her?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did she tell you on the way to the hospital again that O.J. had pulled her hair?
A: No, I don't remember.
Q: Okay. And what did she tell you in terms of how, as you term it, a fight - the fight started?
A: Her words to me were that she "wouldn't f--- him."
Q: That's all she told you?
A: She didn't go into details, but that's what she said.
Q: Okay. And did she tell you what he did when that occurred?
A: An argument started, I guess.
Q: And did she tell you what happened after the argument?
A: I can't remember what happened after that. She went back to, "I want him to pay for this."
Q: She was still angry that evening as you spoke to her?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And did she say how he wanted her to pay - how she wanted him to pay for it?
A: No, she didn't say directly how. She just kept saying that she wanted him to pay for it and that, you know, she was hurt, and I think she said something about her being a victim, and she was concerned that everybody was going to side with O.J.
Q: Did she tell me - did she tell you how many times in the past this had happened?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did she tell you this had ever happened in the past?
A: No.
Q: Did she tell you this was the first time it had happened?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What else did she tell you during the ride to the hospital?
A: I said, "Nicole, if you gonna do it, you got to go all the way."
Q: And what did you mean by that?
A: Well, if she was going to press charges or do what she said.
Q: Did she tell you she was going to press charges?
A: No. I just - she didn't say "charge." She just said that she wanted him hurt; she wanted to get even, and I said, "Well," I said, "you know, you gotta go all the way."
Q: And what did you mean by that?
A: I think it was more of letting her know that, you know, I was not trying to talk her out of it. I felt what he did was wrong and it shouldn't have never happened, and I was supporting her.
Q: As you rode to the hospital in that car, what did you know that Simpson had done that was wrong, in your mind?
A: Well, I don't think any man should hit a woman.
Q: Okay. And what did you do when you got to the hospital then?
A: We walked into the emergency room, and she - we walked up to the counter or whatever, you know, to admission or whatever, and the lady asked her her name. Then I don't know if Nicole - I don't know if she - what she said what was bothering her, I mean, physically was bothering her, but -
Q: Right.
A: - the lady said, "How did you sustain your injuries?"
Q: This is at the front desk still?
A: Yes, at the - the lady that's filling out the forms.
Q: And what did Nicole say?
A: Nicole kinda like hesitated a little bit, and I don't - she mumbled something or she said something. I don't remember. And she looked at me and I said, "Nicole, you got to tell them the truth."
Q: Do you recall Nicole having trouble speaking during this day, New Year's Day?
A: No. No.
Q: Did she ever complain about her jaw hurting at all?
A: I don't remember if she did.
Q: Okay. So after you said that to Nicole, what did she do then?
A: She said - I don't know if she said, "I was hit" or "I had a fight" or "I was beaten." I don't remember exactly what her words were.
Q: Okay. And did the person at the desk ask her anything else after that?
A: Probably.
Q: Did you hear her say anything?
A: I guess she had to give her address and probably what time, general information, I would think.
Q: Okay. After this information was given at the front desk, how long did you have to wait there in the reception area?
A: I don't know. I really don't. I really don't know. It wasn't like five minutes, no.
Q: Do you know approximately how long it was before Nicole even saw a doctor?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Can you approximate for me?
A: She went - they took her to the back or wherever. They went back there.
Q: Right after you checked in there, they took her back?
A: After they got the information.
Q: Okay. By the way, on the car ride over there, did Nicole say anything about divorce?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did she say anything about the kids?
A: No.
Q: Did you see Ruth at all that day when you were over at the house?
A: I don't remember who was there, to be honest with you.
Q: But you don't remember seeing Ruth at all?
A: No. Like I said, she could have been there. I just don't remember.
Q: Mr. Cowlings, I am going to ask you to look at this picture. It's been previously marked as Exhibit No. 45. Ask you if you recognize that picture.
MR. PETROCELLI: Which exhibit number?
MR. KELLY: 45.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And who do you recognize that to be?
A: Nicole.
Q: And does that appear to be the way that Nicole looked when you went over there that early morning time to Rockingham -
A: Hey, man, can you give me a break?
Q: Yes. Off the record.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 1:50.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 1:56.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, I had asked you previously to look at that exhibit that's been marked Exhibit No. 45, and I will ask you again if you recognize the person depicted in that photo.
A: Yes, I do.
Q: And who is that?
A: It's Nicole.
Q: And do you recognize the black jacket she has on in that picture?
A: Is that a jacket? It's black. I assume that's the jacket that she had on.
Q: Do you recognize that as the police jacket she had when you went over there early that morning?
A: It's black. I mean, I can't determine if it's a jacket or not, but it's black.
Q: Does it appear to be what she had on when you went over there that morning?
A: Yes, it's black, yes.
Q: Okay. And as she is depicted in that photo, is that the way Nicole appeared to you as you arrived there at Rockingham the first time on New Year's morning, 1989?
A: Her hair wasn't back like that when I saw her.
Q: Other than her hair being back, does her face appear to be the same as it was when you saw her when you walked in the kitchen that morning New Year's Day?
A: It looks like it's red. That's what I detected on her face: Being red.
Q: Okay. Do you recognize any other of the markings that are on her face in that photo?
A: Not - no. Uh-uh.
Q: Do you recognize the large lump and bruise appearing over her right eye?
A: Are you looking at the same picture I am?
Q: No. I am talking about the one you're looking at.
A: Over her right eye?
Q: Yes.
A: I noticed that later on. I didn't notice that right off the bat, I mean my first visit there.
Q: Okay. And with regard to the bruise and swelling under her right eye and her right cheek, did you recognize that that morning when you went over there?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Okay. With regard - would you agree with me that there appear to be scratches on her face in that photograph?
A: Yes, it does.
Q: Okay. Do you recall seeing those scratches on her face when you went over there the first time that morning to Rockingham on New Year's Day?
A: Well, like I said, I noticed the redness in her face. I didn't zero in to find out - I mean to see if there were scratches or anything. I just noticed her face was red.
Q: Okay. Well, looking at that photograph before you now, do you recall her having a lump and bruise over her right eye?
A: Not that first morning, no.
Q: And looking at that photograph now, does it refresh your recollection that she had a bruise and swollen right cheek that morning that first time?
A: No.
Q: Looking at that photograph, does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not she had scratches on her face when you arrived there that first morning on New Year's Day, 1989?
A: I didn't notice the scratches. Like I said, I noticed her face being red.
Q: Okay.
A: As we were standing there talking, Nicole was - I think was fixing herself some tea or drinking some water, and she was in a huff, and she was like, you know, moving around, so I didn't zero in on just having her stand still and examine her. I just noticed her face was red.
Q: Okay. I am going to ask you to look at what has been previously marked as Exhibit 46 now, and do you recognize that photograph?
A: Yes, I know - yes, I recognize the photograph.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me who that photograph depicts?
A: It's Nicole.
Q: And do you recognize her appearance as that being her appearance when you arrived there that morning on New Year's Day, 1989?
A: Her hair is back. I didn't notice this that morning.
Q: Okay. Would you agree with me now as you look at that photograph that she has a very large and swollen bruise over her right eye?
A: Yes, it is.
Q: Okay. Did you notice that that morning when you went over there to Rockingham?
A: No, I didn't, sir.
Q: Okay. Did you notice that that night when you took her to the hospital?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And in fact when you took her to the hospital that night, it was even larger and darker than it appears in that photograph there, was it not?
A: It seemed like it was larger. It could have been darker. Like I say, she didn't have her hair pulled back, but I noticed that it was swelling. And when she was telling me that she was bothered by a headache, I felt that, you know, it would be wise for her to go to the hospital because I didn't want her to go to sleep, you know, thinking that maybe she had a concussion.
Q: That was a rather substantial injury she had over her right eye that day on New Year's Day, was it not, Mr. Cowlings?
MR. LEONARD: Object to "substantial." Vague.
THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir. She stated to me that you know, her head was hurting, and I was concerned for her well-being.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you feel there was reason to be concerned about it, with the appearance of her head when you looked at it?
A: She was hurting. She said her head was hurting.
Q: I am asking you: When you looked at her head, her forehead, and saw what was there, did you think there was reason to be concerned about her health at that time?
A: When Nicole told me her head was hurting, I was concerned on her reply.
Q: Were you concerned about the appearance of her head when you looked at it?
A: When Nicole told me that her head was bothering her, that put my concern that maybe this was a concussion of some kind.
Q: That what was a concussion?
A: That with the knot and her head hurting was tied in together.
Q: Okay. What I am asking you, Mr. Cowlings, again: Did it cause you concern, you yourself concern, after you observed that knot on her head that day, New Year's Day, 1989?
A: That night when I came back over and noticed the knot, she was telling me her head was bothering her. That raised my concern. I said, "Nicole, let me take you to the hospital."
Q: Okay. Would it be fair to say that the fact that she had that knot and Mr. Simpson - and she told you Mr. Simpson had hit her also caused you concern for her health that day?
A: She didn't tell me where O.J. hit her. She didn't tell me he hit her upside the head or he hit her on top of her head or he hit her on the jaw. She just told me she was hit by him.
Q: After she had told you that Simpson had hit her, did you draw your own conclusion as to where he had hit her? And I will ask you to look at that photo -
A: There was -
Q: - again, Mr. Cowlings.
A: I would - it seemed like it was a hit to me. I would assume - I shouldn't assume, because I wasn't there. I don't know how these blows were thrown.
Q: Was it your impression at least one of the blows hit Nicole right in the front forehead over her right eye?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation -
THE WITNESS: I don't know -
MR.LEONARD: - lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: - I wasn't there. I'm sorry.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I understand you weren't there Mr. Cowlings. What I am asking you, if in your opinion after talking to Nicole it was your opinion that Simpson had hit her in the front of the forehead above her right eye?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Asking him to speculate.
THE WITNESS: She never told me that he hit her in the head. Verbally, she never actually told me how he hit her.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: She told you that he hit her, though?
A: Right.
Q: And she told the people at the hospital he hit her also, didn't she?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I think so, yes. She - when she asked her - the lady asked her what had happened and she delayed, she finally said, "I was hit." How she told them how she was hit, I don't know because she was taken in the back to be examined.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, you played high school football?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: College football?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Pro football?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Seen a lot of injuries in your day?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: Seen people with head injuries?
A: Bumps, bruises.
Q: Seen people with knots on their heads?
A: Not directly during a game, but some time afterwards. I've had knots I didn't realize I had until a day later.
Q: Have you ever seen a knot this big on someone's forehead before?
A: Probably have.
Q: Do you remember that specifically?
A: I was in a contact sport. I've seen a lot.
Q: You've seen a lot of contact injuries?
A: Yes, I have, sir.
Q: Does that look like a contact injury to you?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: It could be.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Are you able to answer the question as you sit here today when I ask you, does that in you opinion appear to be where Nicole Brown Simpson got hit early that morning on New Year's Day?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Speculation.
THE WITNESS: Sir, I can only tell you what I know for a fact: That I don't know how she sustained that injury. She could have been hit by O.J. She could have hit her head up against the wall, sir. There's a number of ways you can get a knot up on your head.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did she tell you Simpson threw her against a wall?
A: No, she didn't.
Q: Did she tell you anything else he did to her besides hit her?
A: She didn't go into details to me.
Q: Do you think it would be fair to conclude that she got hit in the head, just from her appearance that morning?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation. Lack of foundation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You can answer it.
A: She did get hit in the head some kind of way.
Q: Okay. Do you recall seeing the bruise under her right eye that morning when you went to Rockingham?
A: Where is the bruise? Where are you speaking of?
Q: (Indicating). Would you agree with me even that there is a bruise on her right cheek?
A: I'm not trying to make excuses here. Nicole has keen cheeks, so I don't know. I couldn't tell you if that's swollen or if that's Nicole's cheek.
MR. PETROCELLI: What kind of cheeks?
THE WITNESS: She's very keen in the face, very structured. So I don't know if that's swollen or if that's her natural shape of her face.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Do you recall seeing any of those - Would you agree that there are some scratches that appear in that photograph?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you recall seeing those scratches that morning when you went over to Rockingham the first time?
A: That could have been the red flush or discoloration of her face what I was noticing. I wasn't standing directly up on Nicole.
Q: Okay. Were you face to face with Nicole the second time you went there that morning and you saw her feeding Justin?
A: She was - she had her head down, you know, doing her routine with the baby, and she wasn't too talkative. I just was more concerned if she needed anything or whatever, and I didn't stay that long, so I really didn't get a good look at Nicole.
Q: Did you notice any injuries on her face at all at that time?
A: Her face still seemed to be red.
Q: Other than red, did you notice anything else about it?
A: Pardon?
Q: Other than her face being red, did you notice anything else about it?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Okay. This is Exhibit No. 47. Do you recognize that photograph, Mr. Cowlings?
A: Yes. I do.
Q: Could you tell me who that photograph depicts?
A: It's Nicole.
Q: Okay. Do you recognize the sweat pants she's wearing in that picture?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Okay. Were those the sweat pants she had on when you first arrived at Rockingham that morning of New Year's Day, 1989?
A: Yes, they are.
Q: Okay. Now, in looking at that photograph, does that refresh your recollection whether those pants were dirty at all when you went over there that morning?
A: They were dirty.
Q: Okay. Do those pants appear to be in the same condition as they were when you first arrived there that morning on New Year's Day, 1989?
A: They appear to be.
Q: Okay. And the jacket she has on, is that the jacket you recall that she was wearing when you first arrived there?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Okay. I am going to ask you to look at Exhibit No. 49. Do you recognize - I'm sorry, Dan. Do you recognize that photograph?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: And could you tell me who is depicted in that photograph?
A: Nicole.
Q: And in looking at that, does Nicole appear in that photograph as the way she appeared to you that day that you arrived in Rockingham on New Year's Day, 1989?
A: This is close to what I pictured when I saw her with the redness in her face.
Q: Okay. Do you recall seeing the - Would you agree with me, first of all, that there is a knot or lump above her right eye in that photograph?
A: There seems to be a knot with some red breaking of the skin - I mean skin being broken.
Q: Do you see bruising there also?
A: Somewhat, yes.
Q: Okay. And do you recall seeing that at any time during the day on New Year's Day, 1989?
A: I noticed that that evening.
Q: Okay. And would you agree with me that there are scratches that appear on Nicole's face in that photograph?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Do you recall seeing those that evening when you took her to the hospital?
A: I don't remember. I don't know if I - I was more concerned with the knot and her complaining about her head, sir.
Q: How do you - In your experience, what usually causes a concussion?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Speculation.
THE WITNESS: My impression, something in contact with the head.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. So it's a contact injury, is it not?
A: Could be. Some type of force has to be delivered.
Q: Okay. It's not a pressure injury, if you know what I mean by that. Do you?
A: No, I don't. What do you mean by "pressure"?
Q: Well, it's not just (Indicating). Can you get a concussion from your head just being squeezed?
MR. LEONARD: Objection -
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: If you know.
A: I don't know.
MR. LEONARD: Lack of foundation. Speculation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Have you in your experience heard of a concussion being caused any other way other than by a blow to the head?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: What I am asking you, you in your experience as a professional athlete, have you ever heard of a concussion being caused by anything other than a blow to the head?
A: You can have a concussion getting hit in the head or the jaw.
Q: I am sorry?
A: You can suffer a concussion by getting hit in the jaw.
Q: Okay. Any other way?
A: I don't - I'm not a medical person.
Q: I understand that.
A: I wouldn't know if there's any other way to get a concussion.
Q: Okay. But in your experience those are the only ways that you know of that you could suffer a concussion?
A: To me a concussion is when you bump your head or get hit by something.
Q: Okay. In the head.
A: The head, side of the face of the temple area or the jaw. The jaw is connected.
Q: You can't get a concussion from drinking too much, can you?
A: I don't know. I've never been that drunk to pass out.
Q: But I am saying: Just by consuming alcohol, you can't get a concussion, as far as you know?
A: I wouldn't know, sir.
Q: Okay. I am going to ask you to look at Exhibit No.50. Do you recognize that photograph?
A: Yes.
Q: And could you tell me who is depicted in that photograph?
A: That's Nicole.
Q: And could you tell - are you able to make any observations as to her upper right arm?
A: I never saw her upper right arm.
Q: I am asking -
A: I never saw this. Are you asking me -
Q: I am asking you what you see in that picture right there.
A: Oh, her arm is black and blue.
Q: Okay. Do you have any idea what caused that black-and-blue injury on her right arm?
A: I have no knowledge of that.
Q: Looking at that black-and-blue injury in her upper right arm, does her face appear to be the same as it appeared that day, New Year's Day, 1989, when you took her to the hospital?
A: That morning I would say it seems to be, like I said, red. You know, it could have been the scratches that I had saw.
Q: Okay. But other than that, that's the way you recall her appearing that morning?
A: Yeah, somewhat, yes.
Q: Okay. Did you ever speak to Ron Shipp at all on New Year's Day?
A: Not - no. I don't think so.
Q: Did Mr. Simpson tell you he had spoken to Ron Shipp at all on New Year's Day?
A: No, I didn't - no, I don't know that.
MR. LEONARD: Are you talking about '89?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
Q: Did you speak to Mr. Kardashian at all on New Year's Day, 1989?
A: No.
Q: Did you talk to Skip Taft at all that day, New Year's Day, 1989?
A: I could have spoken to Skip. Skip could have been over to Alan's. I don't know for sure if he was there.
Q: Do you have any recollection of discussing this incident since that meeting at - the injuries Nicole received, with Skip Taft on New Year's Day, 1989?
A: I don't remember that.
Q: Did you ever discuss this with Skip Taft?
A: I don't remember that either.
Q: Did you ever discuss that particular New Year's Day, 1989 incident with Robert Kardashian?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever discuss this incident with Ron Shipp?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Okay. Do you recall how long you were at the hospital with Nicole for?
A: I don't know how long it took for them to examine her. You know, I wasn't timing it, so I don't know.
Q: You weren't with her when she spoke to the doctors?
A: No.
Q: Okay. What did she tell you when she came out of the examining room afterwards?
A: I don't remember. I mean, she could have said we could go, or I said, "What did they say?" I don't know if they gave her any medication or anything. I don't know for sure.
Q: Did you take her to a drugstore that you remember?
A: I don't think so. I don't remember taking her to a drugstore.
Q: Okay. Then you took her home then?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did you have any further conversation in the car on the way home?
A: I don't remember if we did or not.
Q: Okay. What did you do after you got her back home, if anything?
A: Walked her in. I don't know if she told me she was going to take a shower or she was going to bed. I don't know - remember what she said.
Q: Did you stay there for a while?
A: I stayed a little while, and then I told her if she needed me, to call me at home.
Q: Did you go home then?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did you see anybody else there when you dropped her back off that day?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you know who was baby-sitting?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you then go home?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you talk to anybody that night after you got home?
A: No, I don't remember if I did or not.
Q: Did you talk to Simpson that night?
A: I don't remember if I did or not.
Q: Do you remember him calling you?
A: No.
Q: No, he did not call you?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember him calling me.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: When was the next time you talked to Mr. Simpson?
A: I don't know if I did or not. I kinda like left it alone and felt the best thing to do was to, you know, stay away. So I don't know what happened after then.
Q: Was Simpson home when you brought Nicole home that night?
A: I don't remember if he was.
Q: He wasn't there waiting for her, was he?
A: I don't remember, sir.
Q: Do you remember him ever making a call to the emergency room when you were there?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Okay. And do you remember him ever calling you again to ask how Nicole was?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay. When was the next time you talked to Simpson?
A: The time that I remembered I spoke with O.J., I was on my way to work and I stopped off normally I had a procedure where I get some coffee and a muffin and a newspaper, and it was an article in the paper.
Q: Was that the following day? .
A: I don't know if it was the following day. Could have been the following week. I stayed - like I said, I stayed away for a while.
Q: Do you remember Simpson ever calling you to ask how Nicole was after you had taken her to the hospital that night?
A: I don't remember, sir.
Q: Okay. And what happened when you - tell me about the -
A: I thought things were - no. This I would think was a while ago. This was a period - some time had developed.
Q: Had you talked to Simpson at any time in the interim?
A: I knew they had went to Hawaii on a trip for Hertz. I don't know if it was a few days after that incident or a week or two weeks later, but they did make a trip to Hawaii that had something to do with Hertz, and I thought things were back to normal. Like I said, I had stayed away, and whenever the article came out in the paper about Nicole filing charges, I called him and just wished him the best.
Q: What did he say?
A: He was taken by it.
Q: By the fact that Nicole was filing charges?
A: Well, from what he told me, the D.A.'s office pressured - Nicole wanted to drop the charges.
Q: Who told you Nicole wanted to drop the charges?
A: He told me that.
Q: Did Nicole tell you she wanted to drop the charges?
A: No. I'm telling you O.J. told me that Nicole said she wanted - I mean, he - that morning he said Nicole wanted to drop the charges.
Q: This morning you called him?
A: Yeah, after the article had came out.
Q: Okay. Nicole never told you she wanted to drop charges, did she?
A: No, she didn't, sir.
Q: Okay.
A: He said that, but the- some woman down at the D.A.'s office told Nicole that she had to.
Q: And that's all he told you?
A: He just, you know - he said that they'll get through this. Everything was fine, you know.
Q: Did he ever express any concern about his Hertz contract to you?
A: He didn't directly tell me. I had heard later on that it was important that Nicole go with him to Hawaii.
Q: Was it your understanding that she had gone to Hawaii with him because of his contract with Hertz?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: It could have been a combination of things. It could have been she was - I mean, they went back together.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: When was the next time...Other than Simpson's contract with Hertz, can you think of any other reason she went to Hawaii with him?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Calls for speculation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know if that's the sole reason why she went. I mean, like I said, they had been back together, and it wasn't uncommon for her to travel with him on business trips or trips like that.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Well, is it fair to say that you had heard after the fact one of the reasons she did go with him to Hawaii was because of his Hertz contract?
A: That was part of it.
Q: What else had you heard?
A: I just assumed that she was going with him anyway. I mean, they were scheduled to go, to make the trip together, before this thing happened.
Q: Okay. When was the next time you spoke to Nicole?
A: I stayed away just to let it blow over, and I think - I think Denise - maybe I saw her and Denise together. Maybe I dropped by the house, and I think Denise stayed with her for a while, I think.
Q: How long after New Year's Day was this that you stopped by the house?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Was it within two weeks?
A: I don't remember, sir.
Q: Did you talk to Nicole at all about the incident again?
A: I was just glad to see that she was, you know, doing fine. It seemed like, you know, things were back to normal between her and O.J.
Q: Is that what she told you?
A: That's my appearance - that's what I figured myself. I didn't ask her. They were both living there together.
Q: Okay. Was there any time after this incident that you discussed this New Year's Day incident with Ron Shipp?
A: I don't remember if I did or not. Shipp was more of an acquaintance of O.J.'s and Nicole's. I mean, he used to frequent their house a lot.
Q: Okay. Was Shipp a good friend of Simpson's?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: He was a friend.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Was he a good friend of Simpson's?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know how - I know he was a friend. O.J.'s a very friendly person. People come by his house a lot.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well, it's your testimony that Ron Shipp was by the house a lot.
A: Yes, he was.
Q: Okay. And going back as far as 1980 when Simpson first moved into the house, do you remember seeing Ron Shipp at the house back then?
A: No, I don't.
Q: As of 1985 when Simpson and Nicole got married, do you recall seeing Shipp around the house after that period?
A: Could have been. I think O.J. came in contact with Ron Shipp at Joe Stellini's. I think that's where initially - how they met, was at Stellini's.
Q: Well, when did Simpson start hanging out at Stellini's?
A: Ever since Joe had his restaurant.
Q: That was back in the late '70s, wasn't it?
A: I think Joe opened that restaurant in '78 or '79 or something like that I think.
Q: Do you recall seeing Shipp at Stellini's with Simpson?
A: I don't know what time frame, but eventually Shipp was there.
Q: With Simpson?
A: No. He was there with himself or other people.
Q: And Simpson also?
A: I don't remember seeing O.J. there. I remember Shipp introduced himself to me. He said that I knew his cousin or his - something connected up in San Francisco or Northern California. I - to this day I couldn't tell you who he was speaking of, but I just went along with it. He seemed to be a nice guy.
Q: In what time period did you used to see Shipp at Rockingham a lot?
A: He would come by there while he was on duty as an officer.
Q: Did you see him there after he had retired from the LAPD?
A: Yes.
Q: A lot?
MR. LEONARD: Objection to "a lot." Vague.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what "a lot" is. I mean, he was there. We...
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever play tennis with him there?
A: No. He played tennis with other people. He used to - he would bring his doubles team with him or the people he was going to play with, but I never played with him.
Q: He would bring the other three people with him?
A: Yeah, three, four, five, six people.
Q: Did you ever see him playing tennis with Simpson?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see him playing hoops there?
A: It's a basketball court there. He could have played.
Q: Did you ever see him playing?
A: I never watched Ron Shipp play tennis, so I don't know what he did after that.
Q: Okay. But you saw him there on a regular basis?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. "Regular basis." Vague.
THE WITNESS: He was there. I don't know how regular it was, but he was there.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And would it be fair to say that you saw him there I think you had said before "a lot"? Could you tell me when the last time you saw him there was before June 12th, 1994?
MR. LEONARD: Object to the preamble "a lot." I don't believe that was his testimony, and it's vague.
THE WITNESS: I couldn't tell you.
MR. KELLY: Preamble?
MR. LEONARD: Yeah.
MR. KELLY: That's a new one.
Q: I'm sorry?
A: I couldn't tell you that. I wouldn't know when was the last time I saw Ron Shipp there.
Q: Okay. Do you think you saw him there within the last six months prior to June 12th, 1994?
A: I have no recollection of that.
Q: Okay. Do you recall when Nicole moved to her Bundy condominium?
A: Not really. I didn't see a lot of O.J. and Nicole during that period. It was a surprise to me that she moved - I mean it surprised me -I remember she had told me that the lease was up at the Gretna Green place, but she continued to stay there. I think she went on month to month.
Q: Did you help her move out of Gretna Green?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Okay. Did you help her move into Gretna Green?
A: No. I teased her about that.
Q: One of the times you didn't help her move?
A: Right, that was one of the times. And then we kinda had like a little, you know, joke about it.
Q: Well, other than moving to Gretna Green and the one time you told me about her packing and going to Laguna, can you tell me other times you helped her pack and move?
A: Well, I helped them pack and move a lot of things. When I say "help," it's a combination of when they bought their beach house in Laguna, I helped move stuff in, moved beds. When they bought their condos, I helped to bring a lot - she - Nicole with her interior design business, she loved Kreiss Furniture. Kreiss Furniture is a store out here that has like a Santa Fe look, and it's very heavy, a lot of stone and a lot of wood, and she would call for me or O.J., one of the two, to move stuff from one unit to the next or bring or take stuff down.
Q: Did you ever have a key to Nicole's condo prior to her death on June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Mr. - I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Did you ever have a key to Nicole's condominium at 875 South Bundy prior to her death on June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Mr. Simpson had a key to Nicole's condominium at 875 South Bundy prior to her death on June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever have a key to Nicole's condo at 875 South Bundy?
A: No.
Q: Even after her death on June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Do you know whether Mr. Simpson ever had a key to her condo after her death on June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: No, he did not?
A: I didn't know if he had a key or not. I mean, personally I didn't know if he had a key, no.
Q: Okay. You never had a key, though?
A: No, I never had a key, sir.
Q: To this day as we sit here?
A: To this day as we sit here, I do not have a key to Nicole's condo on Bundy.
Q: Okay. Did you ever go to her condominium at Bundy after her death?
A: Yes, one time.
Q: Okay. You were up there on the 14th, were you not?
A: It was -
MR. RE: Well, I'm afraid this was a period of time we are going to have to assert the Fifth Amendment. Are you talking about June 14th?
MR. KELLY: Yes.
MR. RE: Two days after the murder, yeah. I am advising -
MR. KELLY: I am going to ask him to assert it then.
Q: Did you go up to Nicole's condo at 875 South Bundy on June 14th, 1 994?
A: What day was that?
Q: That was two days after her death.
A: What day?
Q: It was Tuesday.
MR. RE: Wait a second before you answer. Let me talk to him for a minute, because there are certain areas you are obviously going to get into at this point regarding that time period. Is that right?
MR. KELLY: Just this specific issue for now.
MR. RE: Which is?
MR. KELLY: Let me ask you, Mr. Re, what is the basis for your refusal to allow your client to answer any questions, first of all, after June 17th, 1994?
MR. RE: June 17th being the day of the arrest?
MR. KELLY: The day of the arrest.
MR. RE: No. I limited it yesterday, so that we are only going up through the day of the arrest. So in other words, the period of time is from the period of time that Mr. Simpson comes back from Chicago until the day of the arrest, as far as the time period is concerned.
MR. KELLY: Okay. Previously, in fact yesterday for most of the day, your position had been for a two-week time period after June 17th.
MR. RE: We started off with the two-week time period because that seemed to be - I had my time frame wrong, but towards the end of the day we kept saying up until the time of the two of their arrests. That's the time we're talking about.
MR. KELLY: Okay. So that's the time you intend to assert his Fifth Amendment right at this point?
MR. RE: Right. There may be specific incidents within that one week - roughly one-week period that we would not be asserting the privilege to.
MR. KELLY: Do you want to take a break now and go over a couple of areas?
MR. RE: With you?
MR. KELLY: Or do you want me to ask the questions?
MR. RE: Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. I think that would be easier.
MR. KELLY: Okay, why don't we do that.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:31.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 2:44.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Now, do you recall going up to 875 South Bundy, which was Nicole's condominium, on the morning of June 14th, 1994?
A: It would have been in the afternoon.
Q: Okay. Do you recall how you got up there?
A: I drove.
Q: Okay. Where did you drive from?
A: I drove from Bob Kardashian's house.
Q: Okay. And how long had you been at Kardashian's house that day?
THE WITNESS: On the advice of my lawyer, I respectfully refuse to answer on the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
MR. RE: From now on may we have a stipulation that if he says he "asserts the privilege" or "the privilege," that he will have been deemed to have read that entire statement?
MR. KELLY: That's fine.
Q: Prior to your arrival at Kardashian's, where had you been?
A: I was at the Brown's house.
Q: Okay. And did you drive directly from Browns' to Kardashian's?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And was anybody with you when you drove to Kardashian's?
A: The privilege.
MR. KELLY: That's an even shorter version.
MS. ROIT: Why don't you say "the Fifth."
MR. RE: Just say "the privilege." We stipulate that he's read the entire statement.
MR. KELLY: Okay.
Q: What time did you drive from Kardashian's directly to the Bundy condominium?
MR. RE: I am sorry. Was that one question or two?
MR. KELLY: That was one, with a cough in between from your client. I asked him if he drove directly from the Kardashian condominium to Nicole's condominium.
MR. RE: Okay. You started out saying "What time." That's not part of the question?
MR. KELLY: It's not now.
MR. RE: Okay.
Q: Did you drive directly from Mr. Kardashian's house to the condominium at 875 South Bundy?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Was anybody with you at that time?
A: No
Q: Who, if anybody, was at the condominium when you arrived there?
A: Lou Brown, Minnie Brown, Ralph, Ron -
Q: Ron who?
A: I don't know Ron. He's a friend of Nicole's. I don't know his last name.
Q: Okay.
A: I think there was a maid there.
Q: Do you remember her name?
A: No. I think she worked for Nicole. And Cora came by.
Q: Okay. Did you front - did you park in front - or where did you park when you arrived at the condominium?
A: I pulled up to the front first because we had prearranged - Lou knew I was coming.
Q: I am sorry. Who knew you were coming?
A: Lou knew I was coming, and we had already prearranged that I was going to come and help pack up Nicole's stuff.
Q: When had you arranged this?
A: Before I left Laguna.
Q: Do you know what arrangements Lou had made to get into the condominium at that time?
A: I assume he had the keys.
Q: Okay. Did he tell you he had the keys?
A: No. He was upset because - with the authorities because they left the door wide open.
Q: Which door?
A: I guess the front door.
Q: Okay.
A: When I got there -
Q: I am sorry. Did he tell you this when you were still down in Laguna?
A: No. It was after I got inside.
Q: He told you that when he got there, the door was wide open?
A: Once I got inside, he was kinda pissed off how they left the door open.
Q: Which door? Did he indicate?
A: I would think the front door.
Q: Okay. Did you come through the front door?
A: I tried. I don't know if the bell was working or I went - I was trying - hopefully I was trying to get them to see me, but I don't know if I got - if Lou told me to go around or I went around the back, but I pulled - I got back in my car because the press was starting to gather, and I got back in my car and I went around the back.
Q: When you say the bell wasn't working, was that the bell outside the front gate?
A: I don't know if I pressed the bell or just tried to get someone's attention inside that I was outside, but I couldn't - some - for some reason - I don't know if Lou finally stepped out and said, "Go around the back," or motioned me to go around the back - I know I eventually got back in my car and drove around the back.
Q: But you weren't inside the gate -
A: No.
Q:- in the front?
A: No
Q: Did you -
A: In fact, let me correct that. I never did go up to the gate. I stood out on the sidewalk.
Q: Did you observe blood on the front sidewalk at that time?
A: I did not look at it.
Q: Do you know whether it was there?
A: Sir, I did not look at it.
Q: Okay. And where did you park around back when you went there?
A: I pulled in and - facing Nicole's garage, I pulled to the left, on the far left side. Her car was there -
Q: Which one? The black -
A: The black jeep. I think that was her black jeep, or it could have been Minnie's black jeep, and her Ferrari was in the garage. The garage door was up when I came around. And when I got out, her next-door neighbor to the right said that if we needed to use his driveway or anything like that, don't hesitate, you know. So -
Q: Did you pull the car nose in?
A: I think I backed it in.
Q: Okay. And how did you enter into the house?
A: I came up the back stairs through the garage.
Q: Okay. Did you observe any blood on the back driveway?
A: No, sir.
Q: Okay. Did you have any discussion with Lou Brown about a key to the condominium?
A: No.
Q: At any time?
A: What he wanted was to get the Ferrari out of there, but it was - something was wrong with it. So I told him that I would see to it, and he had given me the garage opener.
Q: Okay. On the afternoon of the 14th?
A: Sometime during either when we got ready to leave after we had packed up all the cars with Nicole's stuff or stuff we was gonna take to Laguna, I had to get some other things for the kids.
Q: Out of the Bundy residence?
A: Yes.
Q: And did you get them that day?
A: Minnie put together some clothes for the kids.
Q: Okay. And you took the garage door opener with you?
A: I think I did, yes.
Q: Okay. Where did you put it when you took it with you that day?
A: I had it in the car with me, and I drove back down to Laguna to unload Nicole's things.
Q: Do you recall what you did with it, the garage door opener, after you were back down in Laguna?
A: I kept it with me.
Q: Okay. When was the next time you saw it after that?
A: I had it at my house. I don't know how much time went by, but Lou called me one day and requested the garage opener. I said okay.
Q: How long after was that, approximately?
A: I really don't know. It could have been a few days. Could have been a week. Could have been two weeks.
Q: Was it after - do you recall whether or not it was after Mr. Simpson's arrest?
A: Probably, yeah.
Q: Okay. Did Lou ever give you a key to that residence at 875 South Bundy?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see a key to that residence at 875 South Bundy?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever have any discussions with anybody regarding a key to 875 South Bundy?
A: No
Q: Did Cora Fischman ever tell you she had a key to 875 South Bundy?
A: No.
Q: Did you have any discussions with Cora Fischman regarding a key to 875 South Bundy?
A: No.
Q: Do you know who, if anybody, ever had a key to 875 South Bundy?
A: Not to my knowledge, no.
Q: Going back to the Rockingham residence for a minute, you had had a key for that residence for many years, had you not?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did Mr. Simpson also leave a key hidden to that residence anywhere?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Never left a key outside anywhere?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Okay. By the way, you had mentioned that those gates would open automatically and then close after a period of time?
A: The gate at Rockingham will close automatically after a few seconds' delay. The gate on Ashford will open from the inside through the phone. They would punch I think the number was 5 to open the phone. And if you were familiar with the situation, with the grounds, when you walked in there's a monitor on the right. As you walk in, you push the little white button, and it would close the gates on the Ashford side.
Q: But Ashford didn't close automatically?
A: It closed automatically once you pushed the button or if you push 5 again inside.
Q: If you did not take one of those two particular actions, it would not just close on its own?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you ever see the dogs run off the premises at Rockingham?
A: They occasionally will get out, and if I was there I would retrieve them, because it was - the neighbors used to complain about the dogs getting out.
Q: How many dogs did Simpson have?
MR. LEONARD: At what time period?
MR. KELLY: As of June 1994.
THE WITNESS: June what?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: June 1994, immediately prior to the murders.
A: I don't know if the dogs had passed away - a couple of dogs had passed away. I don't know if they passed away during that time know there was three dogs normally there, two Chows and a half Chow-Lab, black, Cheba.
Q: Do you remember Chatchi?
A: Chatchi, yes.
Q: Did you ever see Chatchi off the premises?
A: They would follow Chubbs. Chubbs was the leader. If Chubbs got out, they followed Chubbs. Chubbs was the most stubborn one. I mean, you can always get Chatchi and Cheba to come back. Chubbs had a mind of his own.
Q: Okay. Were you ever at Rockingham when Simpson was being picked up to go to the airport?
A: Have I ever seen him being picked up?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you ever see him miss a flight?
MR.LEONARD: I didn't hear the question. I'm sorry.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever see Simpson miss a flight?
A: O.J.'s very punctual when he's making his trips. Every time I was invited to come along, I always made sure I was there earlier because I didn't want, you know, no one to - him to say, "Why you late? You're hanging me up." So as far as I know, he made - he was very accurate in making his flights.
Q: Okay. Was he organized generally about his travel?
A: Yeah, uh-huh.
Q: Was he always packed ahead of time?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: That I don't know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Well, the times you were there, was he always packed and ready -
A: Sometimes.
Q: - in plenty of time when he was getting picked up?
A: Sometimes he would be and other times he wouldn't. But he used to tease that "Hey, I never missed a flight."
Q: Would he usually be waiting for his limousine when it would arrive when you were there?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Vague.
THE WITNESS: What do you mean by "waiting"? Standing outside or sitting on the bench?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Yeah, any of those.
A: No. Normally the limousine driver will pull up. If I'm already there, I got the gate open for him just to pull in. If I'm not, I'm quite sure he calls; let O.J. know he's there.
Q: Okay. In your experience, O.J. was always packed, though, when the limousine arrived?
A: That I don't know.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: Sometimes there were bags downstairs, bigger bags, and maybe he had a bag upstairs with him that probably - maybe he was still packing or - with his personal stuff. I don't know if it was packed or unpacked.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever see him rushing to still pack clothes while the car was waiting to go to the airport when you were there?
A: No, I don't remember.
Q: You don't remember that?
A: I don't remember seeing that.
Q: Okay. Did you ever see Simpson chipping golf balls in his front yard?
A: Yeah, he did that quite a bit.
Q: Did you ever see him doing it at night?
A: I wasn't by there at night that much.
Q: Did you ever see him chip golf balls at night at Rockingham:,
A: I wasn't by there that much at night.
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Simpson chip golf balls in his front yard at night?
A: Not that I saw.
Q: Okay. Are you familiar with the lighting in the front of Rockingham?
MR.LEONARD: At what point in time?
MR. KELLY: June 1994.
THE WITNESS: When you say, "Are you familiar with the lighting," you're saying what?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: The lighting, the spotlights, mushroom lights, the electrical lighting he had on the exterior of his house.
A: Do you want the outside lights? I was aware of how to turn them on and off if I was doing it.
Q: Were you aware of the fact that he had mushroom lights around the edge of his driveway?
A: What's "mushroom lights"?
Q: Little, small lights on the ground.
A: Yes, uh-huh.
Q: Do you know of any lights in the front of his house at Rockingham, Simpson's house at Rockingham, other than those small mushroom lights around his driveway?
A: There were lights up on the pillars of the big wall by the gates.
Q: Okay.
A: Pillars. I think there's lights up on the trees outside of the front. There's a door outside light in the walk area when you walk into the house.
Q: Right out - right next to the front door there?
A: I think it -yeah, when you walk in, before you open the door, just overhead there's a light, I think.
Q: Okay. He didn't have any flood lights pointing out to the grass area of the front yard, did he?
A: I don't know.
Q: That you knew of.
A: That I knew of, yes.
Q: You did not know of any flood lights pointing out to the grass area of his front yard.
A: No, I don't know if he had or not.
Q: Okay. Did you ever, in the last year or two before June 1994, ever see Mr. Simpson in a dark sweat suit?
A: O.J. has worn a lot of various sweat suits.
Q: Did you ever see him in a navy blue one?
A: It could have been a navy blue. I think he had a - I think Elysee or someone used to send him a lot of stuff. It could have been Fila. O.J. was always getting stuff sent to him by various sporting good companies for | free.
Q: Do you recall seeing him in a navy blue sweat suit?
A: I don't remember. O.J. was playing a lot of golf then, so him and I didn't see a lot of each other because then he was always going to bed early and getting up and going to play golf. So I would normally call him around about 6:00 or 7:00 when I think he's back and say, "Hey, man; how you doing," something like that, so I didn't see him a lot.
Q: When you saw him, do you ever recall seeing him hanging out either in a navy blue or black sweat suit?
A: Sometimes he'd be still in his golf stuff. I don't remember, you know, seeing him in, you know - I really don't remember, to be honest with you.
Q: Okay. Do you remember the colors of any of the sweat suits you had seen him in?
A: No, I don't.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: No, I don't, sir.
MR. LEONARD: While you're looking, can we take just five minutes?
MR. KELLY: Yeah.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 3:03.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 3:12.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, were you aware of the fact that Mr. Simpson was on the board of the company that made Swiss Army knives?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did he ever give you any Swiss Army knives?
A: Yes.
Q: And could you tell me on what occasions he gave you Swiss Army knives?
A: The first one I got, we just had a group of - I don't know if it was Christmas or - he had like an awful lot of them. He gave me a red knife, the red face pocket-size -
Q: Utility knife?
A: Yes. And he gave me a black - no - black with red in the - around it Swiss Army watch.
Q: Okay. Other than those two Swiss Army knife items, did he give you anything else?
A: He didn't.
Q: Who did?
A: Louis Marx.
Q: Okay. What did Louis - by the way, where is Louis Marx from?
A: He's from New York.
Q: Okay. And what did Louis Marx give you?
A: Watches, which I have - one I have on now. Two others. And a big - the big Swiss Army knife camper. I don't know the name they use for it. Utility one - or the big knife.
Q: The big knife.
A: The big knife, with can openers and screwdrivers and all that to it.
Q: Okay. Could you indicate with your fingers how long that knife is?
A: I guess about like that (Indicating), about that thick (Indicating).
Q: Okay. And is the blade on that as long as the handle, if you know what I mean?
A: I really don't know. I don't know - it's long, but I don't know if it's the length of the actual knife.
Q: Okay. Do you still have that, by the way?
A: Yes, I do, sir.
Q: Okay. And what is in that particular knife besides a large blade?
MR. LEONARD: Objection to "large." Vague.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I am sorry. Go on.
A: Scissors, pliers, a tweezers, some thing like a file. It's a utility thing. It got a lot of things to it.
Q: Okay. Was it your understanding that Louis Marx was on the board of this company also that made this Swiss Army knife?
A: Yeah. I would think, yeah. I mean, he owned it.
Q: Okay. He was the owner of this company?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Okay. And how long had you been friends with Louis Marx for?
A: Since - I met Louis in '78. We - that was the same time that the three of us, Nicole and O.J. and myself, was in New York. He was still working on the movie FIREPOWER.
Q: Okay. Are you still friends with Louis Marx?
A: Yes.
Q: When was the last time you spoke to him?
A: It's been some time. My last initial contact with Louis was when he gave me this watch (Indicating). We had lunch. That would have been - When was I filming -
Q: Don't tell me Re was there for that lunch, too?
A: No.
MR. RE: I didn't get the watch.
THE WITNESS: When did I - when I was caught in the topless place?
MR. RE: It was like about -
MR. BREWER: That's my line of questioning.
MR.PETROCELLI: Mike's the expert.
THE WITNESS: I used to be. It's been I would say over a year now. I would say over a-year.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you ever see any boxes of large Swiss Army knives that Simpson had?
MR. LEONARD: Objection to large. It's vague.
THE WITNESS: No, I didn't.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you see - other than the knives you have described to me here a moment ago, did you ever see any other type of Swiss Army knives in Mr. Simpson's house?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you ever see any type of other knives in Mr. Simpson's house, other than, you know, serving knives?
A: Serving knives?
Q: Yeah, like place-setting knives.
A: Yeah, I saw a lot of that.
Q: Other than those, did you see any other types of knives?
A: Butter knives, carving knives, utility knives, in the kitchen.
Q: Did you ever see - do you know what a gravity knife is?
A: No, I don't. What is a gravity knife?
Q: It's where you can open it with your own - a flick of the wrist.
A: No, sir, I've never seen a knife like that.
Q: Okay. You've never seen one of those over at Mr. Simpson's house?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Okay. Have you at any time seen any of the photographs of Mr. Simpson wearing leather gloves while he was broadcasting for NBC Sports?
A: Have I ever seen the photographs?
Q: Yeah.
A: I've seen a few of them, yes.
Q: Okay. And do you recall ever seeing Mr. Simpson wearing those type of gloves?
A: Personally or -
Q: Yeah.
A: - seen in the -
Q: No, I mean, have you yourself been with Mr. Simpson when he has been wearing leather gloves?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Were you ever given a pair of leather gloves by Nicole as a gift?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And you have no independent recollection of Mr. Simpson ever wearing leather gloves?
A: Have I ever seen him in person wearing -
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Okay. Have you ever -
A: No. I take that back. I take that back. Yes. Our earlier years in Buffalo, that's when I was playing for Buffalo, during the winter months it was very practical for everyone to wear gloves and long coats when we went on the road or, you know, it was snowing outside.
Q: Okay. So at some point you do remember Mr. Simpson wearing leather gloves.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Okay. Do you recall what color?
A: They could have been brown. They could have been black.
Q: Okay. Do you know what size glove you wear yourself?
A: I don't wear gloves, sir.
Q: Ever?
A: I tried. My hands - my fingers are - and my palm - the base of my hand is too big. I can never find a pair to fit.
Q: Okay. Did you ever try to force a pair of gloves on?
A: No, sir.
Q: Okay. I am going to ask you to look at a couple photographs here. They are not marked at -
MR. PETROCELLI: Here they are.
MR. KELLY: Forget it. I think we got some better ones here.
THE WITNESS: I hope so.
(Discussion held off the record.)
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I am going to ask you to look at the three pink-tabbed photographs.
A: Oh, you want me to look at all three of them?
Q: Yeah, look at all three of them.
MR. PETROCELLI: Just the ones with the pink, Mr. Cowlings.
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. You have had a chance to look at those exhibits, No. 54, 55 and 56?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you recognize who is in those three photographs?
A: Everyone or just - in all three of those photographs, do you - you want me to recognize the whole - I mean, the threesome or just -
Q: Well, do you recognize Mr. Simpson -
A: Yes, sir, I do.
Q: - in all three of those photographs? Are you able to observe him wearing gloves in those photographs?
A: Yes.
Q: Do those gloves appear to be similar to the type of gloves you recall Mr. Simpson wearing when you saw him?
A: When I saw him where?
Q: Wearing gloves previously.
A: In Buffalo?
Q: Yeah.
A: In the early '70s?
Q: Yeah.
A: I don't know if they're the same gloves.
Q: No, not the same gloves. Do you recall him wearing gloves similar to that?
A: They could have been black or brown gloves.
Q: Similar in appearance to the ones pictured in those photographs?
A: Or they could have been the skin - you're asking me and I'm telling you.
Q: I know. I didn't say anything.
A: Could have been that calfskin with the furs inside, he could have been wearing during the time I saw him in Buffalo.
Q: Okay. I am not asking you about the inside of the gloves.
A: I'm giving you the layout of the gloves.
Q: Okay. But I am asking you, relative to these three pictures of Mr. Simpson with gloves on, do you recall him - or do you recall observing him at any time wearing gloves similar to those?
A: I couldn't be - say they were similar, but they were gloves. If they were exactly that style, I couldn't tell you. That was in 19--
Q: Similar in style. I am not asking if they're exactly the same style, but do you recall ever seeing Mr. Simpson wearing dark leather gloves similar to the ones he has on in these pictures?
A: I've seen Mr. Simpson wear gloves.
Q: Dark leather gloves?
A: Dark gloves.
Q: Okay. Do you know - whether they were leather or not?
A: No.
Q: Do you have a recollection of seeing gloves once again similar - I am not asking you if they are the exact gloves or the same gloves - but similar to the gloves pictured here in these photographs?
A: When?
Q: Whenever you saw him wearing gloves.
A: That would have been in the early '70s.
Q: Okay. Well, then in the early '70s.
A: He wore gloves. I don't -
Q: Did he wear -
MR. RE: I think the problem is the word "similar." When you're saying "similar," the size of the gloves, the cut of the gloves, or are you just talking about the color or the shape? It's the word "similar" that I think is throwing him that he's trying to get you to define.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you recall Mr. Simpson, in the early '70s when you saw him wearing gloves, wearing gloves similar in color to the gloves depicted in those pictures?
A: Dark gloves, yes.
Q: Do you recall observing Mr. Simpson in the early '70s, when you saw him wearing gloves, wearing gloves similar in texture to those pictured?
MR. LEONARD: Lack of foundation. Asking him to speculate.
THE WITNESS: Like I said earlier, he wore different types of gloves according to - you know, he may - if we were going on the road, he may have wore leather gloves. If I saw him going to practice, he may have wore those big canvas gloves. I couldn't tell you exactly if it was that particular style at the time I saw him that he was wearing.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: I am asking you a very general question, Mr. Cowlings.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: At any time when you observed Mr. Simpson wearing gloves, any of these times, did you ever observe him wearing gloves similar to these that are pictured here in the photographs?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: I saw him wearing gloves.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me, the gloves that you saw, how they differed from the ones pictured in these photographs?
A: I couldn't tell you that.
MR. PETROCELLI: Maybe they didn't differ.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did they differ?
A: I couldn't tell. I don't know. I didn't look at them. All I know, it was cold; we all had gloves, and you wore gloves in the snow, you know, when it's cold outside, but I didn't ask him the style. I didn't look at the style. I didn't know how - if it was leather or if it was vinyl. I didn't know if it was fur inside. I didn't know if it was nothing inside. He just had on gloves.
Q: Okay. You didn't wear gloves, though.
A: I tried to wear gloves when it was cold.
Q: But did you?
A: Yeah, but it was hopeless because half my hand was out, so I just kept my hands in my pocket.
Q: Okay. Did you - I ask you to look at these exhibits 69 and 70. Just the front of 69 and 70.
(Witness reviews photographs.)
Q: Have you ever owned a cap like the ones pictured there in 69 and 70?
A: Probably in Buffalo, maybe I did. I don't know for sure.
Q: Do you recall ever wearing a knit ski cap when you were in Buffalo?
A: Probably, yes.
Q: Do you remember for sure or not?
A: Sir, that was in 1970. It was cold. I mean, you did what was necessary to try to stay warm.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Simpson ever owned a cap like that pictured in those photographs?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Did you ever see him with a cap like that pictured in those photographs?
A: I saw him in a film with a cap like that.
Q: Which film was that in?
A: That was one of the NAKED GUNs.
Q: Okay. And was that - do you recall what color that ski cap was?
A: From the screen, it looked like it was a dark color.
Q: Do you know which NAKED GUN that was?
A: The scene was he was on the docks and he walked up on some crooks, and he had - I don't know which one.
MR.PETROCELLI: I think it's the first one.
THE WITNESS: It was the first one? Could have been. I don't know.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: And he had a cap similar to that on in that?
A: He had a cap on his head on the screen.
Q: I am asking you: Did he have a cap on similar to the one pictured in 69 and 70, as you recall?
A: He had a dark cap on.
Q: Similar to the one pictured in that - You can see that picture in front of you, can't you, Mr. Cowlings?
A: Yes, sir. You asked me - all I can tell you is what I know.
Q: I know.
A: And you can't put words in my mouth. I'm trying to tell you the best I can.
Q: I understand that.
A: He had a dark cap on.
Q: Okay.
A: It could have been whatever. It was a dark cap. I didn't zero in. The scene was a funny scene. All I know, he had a dark cap on.
Q: Do you know what a knit cap is?
A: A knit is like a sweater-type of cap.
Q: Right.
A: Okay.
Q: Does that appear to be a knit cap in that picture there?
A: Seems to be. It has the lines to it.
Q: Excuse me?
A: The lines. Looks like it could be a knit cap.
Q: Okay. And could you tell me if you recall any differences between those caps pictured in 69 and 70 and the cap Mr. Simpson had on in that film that you recall?
A: You ask me '69 and '70?
MR. PETROCELLI: Exhibits -
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Exhibits 69 and 70.
A: The caps that I wore?
MR. RE: No. This is exhibits 69 and 70.
THE WITNESS: Oh, I thought you were talking about the year '69 and '70. You were saying what, sir?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Could you tell me if there is any difference between those caps that you're looking at right now and the cap Mr. Simpson had on his head in that movie, as you recall?
A: I couldn't honestly tell you exactly. I know he had on a dark cap. It could have been similar to this.
Q: Okay. Was it similar to that?
A: I'm going to say I don't know because I really don't.
Q: So as you sit here today, are you able to identify for me any differences between those - that cap in that photograph and the cap Mr. Simpson had on his head in that movie?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I don't know, sir.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Mr. Cowlings, on the morning of June 13th, did you have occasion to go by Rockingham?
A: Privilege.
Q: On the morning of June 13th prior to Mr. Simpson arriving back from Chicago -
MR. RE: Withdraw the privilege. Do you understand the time period we're talking about?
THE WITNESS: Before he got back?
MR. RE: Yeah.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you have occasion to go by Rockingham?
A: I was called to Rockingham.
Q: And who called you to Rockingham?
A: Arnelle.
Q: And could you tell me what she said to you when she called you at that time?
A: It was early in the morning. I don't know exactly what time. She woke me up. She was - I could tell that she was upset about something. I thought she was ill first, and I said, "Baby, what's wrong?" Because I had taken her to the hospital because she has a stomach problem. She has called me before; I would come over and take her to the hospital because she has severe pains and cramps that she can't straighten up. So I thought - I said, "What's wrong? Tell me, Arnelle, tell me," and she got her composure, and she said Nicole was dead.
Q: Did she say anything other than that?
A: I said, "What?" And she said, "Nicole is dead." And I said, "What happened?" She says, "I don't know. The police are here." She says, "Would you come over?"
Q: And did you go over there?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Did you go over there immediately?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And could you tell me what, if anything, you observed when you arrived there?
A: When I got there, there was a patrol car. The officer got out when I got out of my car, and I said, "I was called to the house," and he just like waved me on, and I walked into the house and there were people inside.
Q: You just saw one officer there when you arrived there?
A: The - no, no, no. Outside of the house. When I got inside the house, there was more officers inside.
Q: But you only observed one patrol car outside when you arrived there?
A: I don't know. All I know, when I got out, I looked to my right, I think, he was walking towards me, and I said, "I was called to the house," and he just kinda like waved me on. He was a - dressed in regular police uniform, blue.
Q: He was a uniformed cop.
A: A uniformed policeman, yes.
Q: And he was sitting in a marked police car at that time?
A: It was a black-and-white.
Q: Okay. Was there anybody else in the police car with him?
A: I didn't notice.
Q: Would you be able to describe the policeman to me?
A: No. I don't - I don't know if he was black and I don't know if he was white. I was more concentrating on what was going on, what was going on in the house.
Q: Do you recall which gate you walked in when you went to the house?
A: I came through the Ashford gate.
Q: Okay. Did you make any observations as you came through the Ashford gate?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you see any blood in the driveway?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you see any little white cards in the driveway?
A: No, sir.
Q: Okay. When was the first time you saw someone as you walked up to the house?
A: I don't know if I used - I don't know if I came - I don't know if I used my key to open the front door or the front door was already cracked, but I came through the front door. I turned into the kitchen because I heard voices.
Q: Did you make any observations at all in the front foyer?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you see any blood in the foyer?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you see any blood anywhere in the interior of the house on the floor?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you see any markings there anywhere on the floor in the interior of the house?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did anybody caution you to avoid anything when you walked into the house at that time?
A: No, sir.
Q: Okay. What happened next after you entered the house?.
A: I walked into the kitchen. I introduced myself. I think Arnelle was there -
Q: Who did you introduce yourself to?
A: I introduced myself to - I don't know which one was first, I don't know if Vannatter or Lange or Fuhrman, but I introduced myself to them. They asked me my name, and I gave it to them, and I think they gave me their cards. And I think they asked me, did I know where O.J. was, and I said, "I think he's out of town."
Then I asked - I don't think I asked. They were trying to get in touch with Nicole's parents at that time, and I think - I think one of the officers -he was receded on the top; he had dark hair on the side, and he informed them that Nicole was dead.
Q: Were you there when the officer called the Browns?
A: Yes, I was.
Q: Did you provide a number for them to call?
A: No. I think they had the number from Arnelle.
Q: Why do you think that?
A: They didn't ask me for the number.
Q: Okay. Did you hear Arnelle give it to them?
A: I don't know if Arnelle dialed the number. I don't know if she speed dialed it. I really couldn't tell you.
Q: Were you able to hear what the officer said on the phone?
A: He said - I don't know. He said Nicole was dead. I don't know if he said she was murdered or not. I gasped. I threw my hand over my mouth. I grabbed Arnelle, and we embraced each other. This is very difficult thing for me.
Q: Sure.
A: Continue.
Q: What else did you hear the officer say at that time?
A: I asked about the kids, where were the kids, and they said they took them out the back. They took them out of the back of the house because the front - or it was too much commotion out in front.
Q: Did you observe any commotion in front?
A: Commotion in front where?
MR. RE: He's talking about the back -
THE WITNESS: I am talking about what the officer told me when I asked about the kids.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Oh, okay. I'm sorry. At Bundy, you're talking about now?
A: When I asked where the kids were -
Q: Right.
A: - he said the kids were fine; they were at the police station. "We took them out the back way so they wouldn't see the commotion in the front."
Q: Okay. Did you know what he was referring to when he said, "the commotion in the front"?
A: No, sir.
Q: Okay. Which officer was saying this to you?
A: I don't know if Vannatter said it to me. I don't know if the officer who was on the phone said it to me. I said, "Can I go get the kids?" And they said yes, and they said, "Don't go down Bundy because we got it blocked off."
So Arnelle and I got in the car and drove to the station on Purdue to pick up the kids.
Q: From where you were, you wouldn't have to drive down Bundy to get to the police station, would you?
A: You could take Bundy, but I went around - I went San Vicente to Federal and took Federal down to Santa Monica Boulevard, cut - turned left and went over to Purdue to the Westside station on the - where the Westside police station is.
Q: Was Arnelle with you in the car?
A: Yes, she was.
Q: When you first entered the house, once again - I'm sorry - do you recall which police officer asked you where Simpson was?
A: It could have been Vannatter, I think. I couldn't be, you know, clear on that.
Q: Do you have a specific recollection of Detective Lange being there at that time?
A: He could have been there. It was about four gentlemen in the kitchen when I arrived.
Q: You know who Detective Fuhrman is, do you not?
A: Yes, I do. We shook hands.
Q: And was he in the kitchen -
A: Yes.
Q: - when you arrived there?
A: Yes. Yes, was.
Q: Okay. Was he present when you were asked where Simpson was?
A: I think I was asked in the hallway. Well, I think I stepped back out. I think Arnelle and I kind of like went back out into the hallway, and I think she said, "I'm going to call my mother," and she went to her room.
And I think one of the officers - it could have been Vannatter - asked me, "Do you know where O.J. is?"
And I said, "I think he's out of town."
Q: Did they ask you anything else after that?
A: Excuse me. I think I said, "You could call Cathy, his assistant. She would know where O.J. is."
Q: Did they ask anything else about Cathy?
A: I don't know if Arnelle had already given them information on Cathy. They didn't ask me for her number.
Q: Okay. Did they ask you if you knew what time Mr. Simpson had left that day?
A: I don't remember if they did.
Q: Did they ask you whether you had talked to Simpson at all that day?
A: I told them that I stopped by the house earlier Sunday morning. I was on my way to see a friend who was in town, and he was staying at a house in that area, and I left - I left my place in the Palisades and I realized I forgot the address, so I remembered - it was an easy number to remember at the time.
So I stopped off at O.J.'s house, and it appeared to me that maybe O.J. was off somewhere playing golf, which was about - could have been like 8:00 o'clock, 8:30 in the morning, so I used the outside phone by the tennis court to call my friend to get the address where he was.
Q: Okay. You didn't see Simpson that morning at all?
A: No, I didn't, sir.
Q: Okay. Did you have any personal knowledge as to what Simpson was doing on the evening f June 12th, 1994?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you know that Sydney had her dance recital that day?
A: No, sir.
Q: Had you been invited to the dance recital that day?
A: No, sir.
Q: Had you been to any dance recitals of Sydney's in the past?
A: Yes, I have, sir.
Q: More than one?
A: Yes.
Q: And you attended them with Simpson?
A: With Simpson, with [Name Deleted], because sometimes his daughter would be in the same dance recital, and it was like an all-day thing, you know, where we stayed there for Danielle and we stayed there for Sydney.
Q: Did you go out for a meal afterwards the other times you'd been to Sydney's recital?
A: I think I did with Alan. I don't know if I did with the Browns and O.J.
Q: Would Simpson always after family events like that go out as a family with the Browns and people if they were there?
MR.LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember that. I would have no knowledge of it.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Do you ever remember, in all your experience of attending the events for Sydney and Justin Simpson, not being welcome at something for one of the children?
A: No.
Q: Do you ever remember Mr. Simpson being excluded from a family dinner or family gathering for any reason that involved the children?
A: No.
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Vague.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. When you were in the car with Arnelle driving over to Nicole's condo - I mean - I'm sorry - the police station, did you have any conversation with Arnelle?
A: I couldn't - it was conversation. I think we were really confused. We didn't know at that time any of the - we didn't know anything, just the fact that she was dead, and -
Q: Did you know she had been murdered?
A: I don't know. I really don't know. Like I said, when the officer called the Browns, I don't know if he said she was - Nicole had been murdered or Nicole is dead. I really don't know. I know he told them something. Arnelle was very emotional, and we kinda got ourselves together because we didn't want the kids to see - you know, to see us, because before we gathered they knew nothing.
We got there and I walked in and introduced myself to the officers, and I said, "I'm here to pick up Sydney and Nicole" - I mean "Sydney and Justy," and they came out, you know, jumping up, embracing Arnelle and I, and they were showing us things that the officer had gave them. So I thanked the officers for everything, and I took them back up to the house.
Q: To which house?
A: To Rockingham.
Q: Okay. When you were still at Rockingham the first time, other than that one police officer asking you if you knew where Simpson was, did they ask you any other questions?
A: I can't put the questions if I was there the first time or after I came back. I was asked where he was - I know that for a fact - when I first got there. I don't know if I was asked where were the Bronco keys the first time or after I got back. They asked me when was the last time I had seen O.J. I said I hadn't seen him in about a week or so, maybe longer. We were supposed to meet up in New York. I was back East, and I was leaving New York on a Wednesday. I talked to him on Tuesday. He was coming into New York on a Wednesday, and he was trying to talk me into staying over, and I said, "No, I have to get back. I wish you could come out earlier."
Q: Staying over where? I'm sorry.
A: And he wanted me to stay an extra day in New York. I was already in New York.
Q: Okay.
A: I spoke to him - he was on his car phone when I spoke to him.
Q: Okay. And did you know what his plans were for the rest of the week after Wednesday?
A: He said to me -
Q: I'm sorry I interrupted you. You were telling me what you had told the police officers at Rockingham.
A: Right.
Q: I'm sorry.
A: That I think we left it off where he said he was coming back - we left it off how O.J. - I mean, in our conversation that Wednesday, that he'd be back because he had to be somewhere for Sydney. So I said, "Well, when you come back, let's get together either Friday or Saturday night."
And he said, "Okay, I'll call you," but I never heard from him.
Q: And did you know what he was going to be doing after Saturday night again?
A: On the West Coast?
Q: Yeah.
A: No, he never told me what he had to get back for. He just said he had to get back for something for Sydney.
Q: But when you first walked into Rockingham, the detective asked you if you knew where Simpson was. Correct?
A: Yes, and I told him I didn't know.
Q: I am sorry. I thought you had answered that you thought he was out of town.
A: Yeah, I thought he was out of town.
Q: And what was the basis for thinking that?
A: He could have said to me on that conversation on Wednesday that he was leaving again; he had to fly back in, and I don't know if on that Sunday day or the weekend, but he said he had to get back; then he had to leave out again on some type of trip. He never said -
Q: Did he say where he was going?
A: No, he didn't.
Q: Did he say when he was going?
A: He just said he had to leave again.
Q: Did he tell you what day he had to leave?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you what time of day he had to leave, if not that day?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you what city he was going to?
A: No.
Q: Did he tell you why he was going?
A: No.
Q: Did any detective at any time when you were at Rockingham either time that morning ask you if you knew what time Simpson had left his house the previous night?
A: They could have asked me. I don't remember.
Q: Okay. Can you remember for certain whether they ever asked you that or not?
A: I'm not sure, sir.
Q: Were you able to give them any information as to when Simpson had left that previous night?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: If anything, I told them the best person to talk to was Cathy.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you know what time Mr. Simpson had left Sunday?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you even know whether he had left town for sure Sunday?
A: No, sir.
Q: Okay. Did you know where he was as you spoke Monday morning? I'm sorry. Go ahead.
A: My memory - I remember asking them. "Where is O.J.?" And they say, "We think he's out of town."
Q: Is this the first time you came into the house?
A: No. I think when Vannatter and I - I assume it was Vannatter. I remember asking, them, "Where is O.J.?" And they said, "We think he's out of town. We've been told that he's been out of town."
Q: Okay. And this is the first time you walked into Rockingham?
A: It could have been.
Q: You're not certain, though?
A: No, I'm not certain.
Q: Did they tell you anything else about Simpson's whereabouts?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did they ask you anything else about Simpson's whereabouts?
A: I don't remember if they did or not.
Q: Did they indicate to you what time he had left?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did they indicate to you where he was at that time?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did they indicate to you that they wanted to speak to him?
A: They didn't indicate to me, no, sir.
Q: Okay. When you went to the police station, did you have any discussions with any police officer there as to what had happened at Bundy?
A: No, sir.
Q: When you came back to Rockingham then after leaving the police station, what, if anything else, did you discuss with the - First of all, who was there when you got back from the police station?
A: The same four that was there earlier.
Q: Okay. And you remember Lange being there?
A: Lange could have been there.
Q: You specifically remember Vannatter?
A: Vannatter, Fuhrman, I know for a fact, because Vannatter and I eventually - that's who I did all my talking to. Fuhrman I knew for a fact was there.
The officer - he wasn't - it wasn't Lange that informed me - it wasn't Lange that told me that - to go down - I mean, how to go to the police station, not to go down Bundy. This one - I don't know - he was thin. I forget his name. He wasn't one - I never saw him again in any of the -
Q: Criminal trial?
A: He probably was called, but I never saw any more of him during the news, anything like that. It was always Vannatter and Lange. I take that back. He was Fuhrman's partner.
MR. PETROCELLI: Phillips?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Phillips?
A: Phillips, yes. He was Fuhrman's partner. They were both from the Westside.
Q: Okay. So you remember all four of those detectives -
A: Yes.
Q: - being there that morning.
A: Yes.
Q: And other than those four detectives and Arnelle, was anybody else in the kitchen?
MR. LEONARD: At what time, John?
MR. KELLY: The first time he arrived at Rockingham.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I think that was about it.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you ever see Kato Kaelin -
A: Yes.
Q: -the first time you arrived?
A: Kato - I'm trying to put it in a frame. I don't know when I first got there I saw Kato or after I got back from the police station, but Kato and I did see each other, and he was - he looked sad, and he said to me, "A.C., I heard some." - we were in the family room, the big room where the TVs and stuff is -
Q: I am sorry to interrupt, but do you know, is this the first time or the second time you're back at Rockingham?
A: That's what I'm trying - I mean, I don't know if it was before I left to go pick up the kids or after I got back.
Q: Okay. Well, do you recall, when you were present there and the Browns were informed by phone of Nicole's death, whether Kato was there at that time or not?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Okay.
A: I don't remember seeing him.
Q: Okay. So tell me about - oh, you don't remember seeing him that time?
A: I don't remember seeing him the first time when I first arrived.
Q: Okay. You do remember seeing him the second time, though?
A: When I first arrived, I don't remember seeing him. It could have been later on, a few minutes later that I saw him, or it could have been after I got back.
Q: Okay. And what, if anything, did he say to you?
A: He said to me, "A.C., I heard some noises last night."
And I said, "Did you tell the officers?" And he said, "Yeah." And I said, "Okay. That's good."
Q: Is that the only thing he said to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did he ever tell you what kind of noises?
A: I don't know if he did. He just said noises. I don't know if he told me - I really don't know. I wouldn't be - I wouldn't - I don't know exactly what noises, but he told me he heard some noises heard some noises or heard whatever. I don't know exactly.
Q: Did he tell you where he heard the noises?
A: It was outside of - outside of his apartment on the back side.
Q: And he specifically told you that?
A: Yes.
Q: And he told you he had already told the officers that?
A: When I asked, I said, "Did you tell the officers that," and he said, "Yes," I said, "Good."
Q: Okay. Did he tell you anything else?
A: No.
Q: You had indicated earlier that someone had mentioned something about a Bronco key? I am sorry. We have to take a break now.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 2 of Volume II. The time is approximately 3:54, and we are off the record.
(Recess.)
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record. The time is approximately 4 09. This is the beginning of tape No. 3 of Volume II.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Mr. Cowlings, we were - when we broke, we were talking about the morning of June 13th, 1994 at Rockingham.
A: Yes.
Q: And you had just related a conversation you had had with Mr. Kaelin at that time.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Other than him making reference to the thumps behind the guesthouse - or noises that he heard behind the guesthouse - I'm sorry - did you discuss anything else with him at that time?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Asked and answered.
THE WITNESS: No, sir.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. You also indicated earlier that the topic of Bronco keys came up at some point when you were at Rockingham that morning.
A: Yes, sir. One of the officers - I don't know which one; I don't know if they asked me, was that O.J.'s Bronco or was that his car, but I remember I was asked about the Bronco keys.
Q: Okay. Did you see the Bronco when you pulled up that morning?
A: I don't remember, sir -
Q: Okay.
A: - if it was there or not.
Q: Okay. Which street did you park on when you pulled up to the Rockingham residence?
A: I came up Rockingham off of Sunset, and when I got to Ashford, I turned right.
Q: Onto Rockingham?
A: No. Onto Ashford off of Rockingham. I came off of Sunset from where I live in Santa Monica - no. I'm sorry. From the Palisades I come straight down Sunset, cross Mandeville Canyon, and the next left you can make is Rockingham.
Q: Okay.
A: And I came up Rockingham, and when I got to Ashford, I turned right. That's the corner of Rockingham and Ashford. That's where the house sits.
Q: And did you park on Ashford?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Okay. Do you recall which direction you were facing when you parked on Ashford?
A: I think I was facing east on the north side of the street.
Q: Okay. And you have no recollection of seeing the Bronco when you pulled up?
A: I don't remember, like I said, my concentration was getting there to see what has happened.
Q: Do you recall how long you were there the first time you arrived there at Rockingham?
A: I don't remember how long I was there. It was - like I said, I don't know if that was the time they asked me about the Bronco keys or after I got back. I think after - Vannatter - after we were all introduced, I think I - after the announcement I heard about Nicole's - the officer announcing Nicole's death to the Browns, I somehow worked my way to the family room, what you call it, and I think I called Wayne. I know I called Wayne.
Q: And this is the first time you were at Rockingham?
A: It could have been. It could have been - these events I'm telling you about actually, but I can't put them if they happened the first time I was there or after I got back.
Q: Okay. Let me ask you: From the first time you left Rockingham to go to the police station until the time you got back to Rockingham, could you tell me approximately how much time elapsed?
A: Probably 20 minutes, maybe a little - for the whole trip.
Q: Okay. Where does Wayne Hughes live, by the way?
A: At that time Wayne was living in BelAir.
Q: Okay. And do you recall approximately what time it was when you called him?
A: It was early. I woke him up. I couldn't pinpoint a time.
Q: Do you know whether it was light out or not yet?
A: It was light. When Nicole - when Arnelle called me, it was light outside, like a hazy - you know, like a low cloud type of - on the Westside that's the way it's like in the morning. So it could have been 6:00, 6:30, something like that, maybe a quarter to 7:00.
Q: Would that be your best estimate as to what time it was, in that time range?
A: I would put it somewhere around in there somewhere. I couldn't pinpoint a -
Q: Okay. How long from the time Arnelle called you till the time you got to Rockingham, would you guess?
A: God, I was flying. I was there in minutes. It's straight down Sunset from where - I lived on the corner of Sunset and Chautauqua, I think.
MR. RE: Chautauqua?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, Chautauqua.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. By the way, did you ever make the drive from Rockingham to Nicole's place on Bundy?
A: When?
Q: At any time. Prior to June 12th.
A: Like if I went by to visit her?
Q: Yeah.
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me approximately how long it takes to drive from Rockingham to her place on Bundy?
A: I don't know if I came from Rockingham. I probably came from my place in the Palisades.
Q: You never drove from Rockingham to Bundy or from Bundy to Rockingham?
A: Not that I can remember.
Q: Okay. Would you been able to approximate the distance from one place to another?
A: It's a very short distance.
Q: More than a mile?
A: It could be over a mile, I think.
Q: Would you be able to approximate how long it would take you to drive from one place to another?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation. Speculation.
THE WITNESS: I couldn't tell you exactly how long it would take. It's very short. If you left O.J.'s, you shoot down Gretna Green to San Vicente, hit Bundy. It all depends if you can catch the light or not right there at Montana and - well, if you came down Gretna Green there's no lights till you get to San Vicente, but when you get to Bundy and Vicente, you could turn right on the light, and there's a light at Montana and Bundy.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You think it would be safe to say you could get from one location to another in less that five minutes?
A: It all depends how fast you was driving. It's a short distance.
Q: Would it be fair to say, though, at a normal rate of speed you could get from one location to another in less than five minutes?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Speculation.
THE WITNESS: I wouldn't know, sir. Like I said, I never timed my distance when I drive.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: But in relative terms, it would be a short distance from one piece to the other?
A: It's a short distance.
Q: Okay. Going back to your presence that morning at Rockingham on June 13th, 1994, could you relate to me every thing you heard in terms of discussion about the Bronco keys?
A: Just that I think they asked me, was that his Bronco, and I said yes, or they may have already known that that was his Bronco and they could have asked me, "Do you know where the keys are?"
Q: Okay. And what did you reply?
A: I said, "Normally they stay in the kitchen area somewhere, either in a cup or over by the" - there's a utility table next to the door that leads to the laundry room and an extra maid - the maid's room, and normally that's where those keys are kept there, because we have all used that car at one time or another.
It was like, you know, even before - I used to use it before I had my Bronco, and I think I used it a few weeks before then because I put my Bronco in the shop to be serviced.
Q: Okay. Did you see them - did you tell them of those two locations, that the keys might be in one of those two locations?
A: I looked.
Q: You looked yourself?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Were you able to find them
A: No.
MR. RE: You looked yourself? Yes? You said -
THE WITNESS: Yes, I looked.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Yes, you looked yourself in each of those locations?
A: Yes, I looked myself.
Q: Did you find the Bronco keys in either of those locations?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Did you see any of the officers find those Bronco keys at any time?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Did any officer ever indicate to you that he had found the Bronco keys at any time?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Did you ever see that Bronco opened at any time when you were there?
A: I was inside.
Q: Okay.
MR.PETROCELLI: Inside of the house?
THE WITNESS: Inside of the house, yes.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Do you recall which detective asked about the Bronco keys?
A: No.
Q: Okay. When you were testifying before, you said that most of the talking you did was with Vannatter that morning?
A: Eventually I did most of the talking with him. I spoke with - what was -
MR. PETROCELLI: Phillips.
THE WITNESS: Phillips, because he was very nice and, you know, expressing how to get there and not to go, you know, go down Bundy because there was a lot of commotion. It was blocked off and -
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: By the way, were you recall upset when you were at Rockingham that first time?
A: I was upset because - I mean, I was confused because every - you know, all I knew, I was told that Nicole was dead, and it was just very confusing, and then I probably showed some emotion when I heard them tell Lou that Nicole was dead.
Q: Okay. How did these detectives treat you the first time you were there at Rockingham?
A: Very nice.
Q: Okay. And when you came back the second time, is that when you - Well, could you tell me everything you discussed with Phillips, first of all?
A: Well, Phillips was just explaining to me how, you know, not to travel down Bundy to get to the station, and he ensured me that the kids didn't see anything because they were still asleep when they got there, or whoever took them out, and they have no knowledge of what happened. And so he was very nice.
Q: And when you arrived back - I'm sorry. Did you talk to anybody other than Phillips the first time there?
A: I could have spoken to Vannatter again. I don't know for sure.
Q: When you came back the second time to Rockingham -
A: Uh-huh.
Q: - could you tell me what discussions you had at that time?
A: I brought the kids in -
Q: By the way, was Arnelle with you -
A: Yes.
Q: - when you came back to Rockingham again?
A: Yes. We brought the kids in -
Q: Did you have any discussion with the kids at all when you brought - on your way back to Rockingham?
A: More or less just kidding with them, trying to keep them - you know, they wasn't puzzled or asking questions. They was just - whatever Justin - whatever they gave Justin, he was still playing with, and I think they had some - I don't know if they had chips or some cookies or whatever, but they, you know, they seemed to be normal.
Q: Okay. And when you got back to Rockingham, where did the kids - how did you - which entrance did you use to come back in Rockingham?
A: Ashford.
Q: Okay. When you came through the gate, what entrance to the actual house itself did you use to come into the house?
A: I think I brought the kids in through the door off the kitchen or through the front door. What I did, I put on the TV for them. Sydney, like I say, she -
Q: First of all, can you tell me for sure or with some degree of certainty which door you came through when you came back to Rockingham?
A: I couldn't tell you for sure.
Q: Could you give me your best recollection?
A: I couldn't tell you. I could have came through that door or I could have came through the front door.
Q: Do you recall whether you were prevented in any way from coming through the front door?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall seeing any officer near the front door when you approached it the second time?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall seeing any cards or markers of any sort in the front courtyard immediately before the front door?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall seeing any markers in the driveway when you came back the second time?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall seeing any markers of any sort in the front foyer when you arrived there the second time?
A: No.
Q: Did any detective there ever tell you to watch your step for any reason?
A: No.
Q: Did he ever caution you not to go in any particular areas of the house at that time?
A: No.
Q: Did any of them ever caution you not to go in any particular area outside the house?
A: No.
Q: Now, you were telling me what you did once you had arrived back at Rockingham that time.
A: Once I got back, Arnelle and I put the kids in the kitchen, and there's a little section over there where there's a TV and all the video games and tapes and stuff. They was watching cartoons, and I closed off - I closed the doors off to the kitchen, and I took the lock off the front door and left it open so the officers could go in and out without disturbing the kids.
Q: Okay. When you went to the front door to take the lock off, did you make any observations in the front foyer?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any markers on the floor at that time?
A: No.
Q: Did you see any blood on the floor at that time?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall whether there was any blood on the floor at that time?
A: No.
Q: Can you tell me with any degree of certainty that there was not blood on the floor at that time?
MR.LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I didn't see any blood.
BY MR.KELLY:
Q: Okay. When you say you took the lock off the front door, you mean you just unlocked it?
A: No. You push the little center piece in the inside of the door so you could turn the door handle.
Q: Sure. And after you did that - did someone ask you to do that?
A: No.
Q: Was someone knocking at the door that caused you to go to the front door and do that?
A: No, sir.
Q: Were there any other officers there, other than the four detectives, when you came back there the second time?
A: I don't remember if there were any more. Could have been, but I don't know for sure.
Q: By the way, when you arrived there the first time at Rockingham, did you see any photographer there?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: See anybody with a camera?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: When you arrived back there the second time, did you see anybody there with a camera?
A: Not to my knowledge.
Q: Did you see anybody there other than the four detectives that had been there the first time?
A: I basically concentrated on them because I had the interaction with them. So I wasn't aware of anybody else, if they were there.
Q: Okay. What happened next after you got Sydney and Justin situated where you said you had them?
A: I think I told Vannatter that I'd leave the door open, and then him and I were talking -
Q: Who is "him"?
A: Vannatter. We were talking outside in the hallway. The front door's wide open and -
Q: You left the front door ajar also?
A: No. I had it completely open.
Q: Okay. And unlocked?
A: Yes, so they could come in and out without disturbing the kids.
Q: As you faced the front door, could you tell me whether that opens to the right or opens to the left?
A: Facing it?
Q: From inside the house.
A: It would be open to my left.
Q: Okay. And do you know -
A: And from inside, is that what -
Q: Yes. As you stand inside in the front hallway facing the front door, which way does the door open?
A: It's to the left, to my left.
Q: Okay. I'm sorry. You were telling me, after you got the kids situated, you were talking to Vannatter?
A: Yeah, Vannatter and I were in the hallway and -
Q: Was anybody else there besides you and Vannatter?
A: No.
Q: Okay.
A: Then all of a sudden we heard Fuhrman say, "I want this looked at," and we -
Q: You look like you're ready to stand up just then, Mr. Cowlings. Were you?
A: No.
Q: Getting ready to show me something?
A: No. Just my motion.
Q: Okay.
A: Just then Vannatter and I both looked towards the door. Fuhrman was standing there. Then when I looked back at Vannatter, Vannatter says, "We are going to do a search of the house, and all of you are going to have to leave."
Q: Where was Fuhrman standing when he said this?
A: He was halfway - probably he was more outside of the front door than inside. He was pointing down to some area right about the front of the door.
Q: Okay. Was he pointing to an area, if you could tell, outside the front door or inside the front door?
A: I would think it was outside the front door.
Q: Could you see what he was pointing at?
A: No, I couldn't, sir.
Q: And what happened after Vannatter said that?
MR. RE: Fuhrman, you mean?
THE WITNESS: After Vannatter?
BY MR.KELLY:
Q: No. Vannatter, I believe you said -
A: After we were interrupted, when we both heard that and when I looked back at Vannatter, Vannatter said, "We going to" - "I have to do a house search, and everyone is going to have to leave."
Q: Where was Vannatter in relation to you when Fuhrman said this?
A: Him and I were right in front of each other. If you facing that kitchen door that I had closed, we were to the left of it.
Q: How far were you in terms of number of feet from the front door at that time?
A: Could have been eight feet, ten feet, something like that.
Q: Okay. Was Vannatter between you and the front door?
A: No. Vannatter and I were facing - Vannatter's back was to the wall.
Q: Okay.
A: To the wall -
Q: Would it be fair to say you and Vannatter were equal distance from the front door at that time?
A: Yes, I would say so.
Q: Okay. You could not see what, if anything, Fuhrman was pointing to at that time?
A: No, not at that time, no.
Q: Could you tell me what direction he was pointing in as he pointed?
A: As he was facing - it seemed to me as he was facing the door, he was in the doorway. I think he was pointing down to his right, I think. I'm not sure. But I know he had to be in that area somewhere.
Q: But he was pointing towards the ground?
A: Yeah, kinda like, "I want this checked" (Indicating).
Q: That's what he said?
A: Yeah, to those - well, I don't know exactly, but something like to that effect.
Q: Did Vannatter make any move whatsoever prior to making the statement you attributed to him?
A: No.
Q: Did he indicate to you that he could see something that Fuhrman was pointing at?
A: No.
Q: Do you know what Fuhrman was pointing at at that time?
A: No.
Q: Do you know what Vannatter saw that caused him to say they were going to have to do a search of the house at that time?
MR. LEONARD: Objection.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what he saw. I know what we both heard.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Did you ever find out that morning what Fuhrman was pointing to by that front door?
A: I did look at it once I was at the house, once all the commotion was over with. Could have been weeks later.
Q: And what did you see?
A: Like some red paint, looked like it to me.
Q: And that was outside the front door?
A: Just in that vicinity where he was suggesting. Not to say that he was referring to that. I don't know what he was referring to, but that's what I noticed.
Q: How many drops did you notice?
A: It wasn't drops. It was more like a paint smudge. Looked reddish like - you know, it looked more like paint to me than anything.
Q: Okay. Could you describe to me exactly what you saw in that area weeks later?
A: It looked like old paint that had been there. Could have been red from the brick. Could have been red from, you know, something.
Q: Well, how many smudges did you see?
A: I don't know. They could be still there, for all I know. I would think so.
Q: Do you know for a fact that is what Fuhrman was pointing at?
A: I don't know for a fact that that's what he was pointing at.
Q: That's just your own conclusion, that that's what you think he was pointing at?
A: Like I said earlier, I don't know if that's what he was pointing at or he saw something else. I know that's what I saw.
Q: That morning after Detective Fuhrman made that statement, did you have occasion immediately thereafter to walk over where he was pointing and look?
A: When he made that statement?
Q: Yeah.
A: No.
Q: Were you allowed to leave through the front door when you left the premises?
A: I think we took the kids out of the side because we went out of the other door off the kitchen.
Q: As you stood there approximately eight feet from the front door and Detective Fuhrman pointed to the ground, did you ever get closer than eight feet to that area after that time?
A: That particular day or at any time?
Q: Yeah, that particular day.
A: No.
Q: Okay. After Vannatter made that initial statement to you about having to do a search of the house, what did you do next?
A: I think Arnelle called Denise or - 'cause first - when Vannatter said that, I was trying to get my thoughts together to where to take the kids, either to my place or I was even thinking of maybe taking them over to Wayne's or somewhere, you know, close, and I think maybe - or was it...I don't know if Arnelle was talking to Denise or if I was talking to Denise. Denise say, "Why don't you bring them here," and I said, "Okay," or I was told I could bring them to the Browns. I don't know exactly.
Q: Do you recall hearing Arnelle talk to Denise?
A: I don't know if I spoke to Denise or Arnelle was speaking to Denise.
Q: Okay. What, if anything, did you think the moment Vannatter said they were going to have to do a search of the house?
A: He said, "Everyone's going to have to leave" so I was concentrating on, you know, getting the kids.
Q: Did you have any thoughts as to why he was going to do a search of the house?
A: My mind was all confused. I don't know if I gave it any thought. I just reacted. He said, "Everyone's got to leave the house," and so I said, "Okay."
Q: Did you associate that statement Vannatter made to Nicole's death in any way?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Okay. When you called Wayne Hughes, could you tell me what, if anything, you said to him that morning?
A: I told him that Nicole was dead.
Q: Did you tell him anything other than that?
A: He said, "What happened?" or "How?" And I don't think I had the information at the time. I didn't know. I said, "I don't know."
Q: When did you get the information as to how Nicole had died?
A: That Nicole was dead? When Arnelle called me that morning.
Q: Did you ever - when did you first find out she had been murdered?
A: I think maybe - to be honest with you, I don't know. I don't know if I eventually heard it on the news or I heard it before I left. I really don't know.
Q: Okay. The first time you were at Rockingham, do you have any recollection of the phone ringing at all when you were there the first time?
A: It could have been ringing. I don't know if it was or not.
Q: Okay. Do you recall it ringing at all when you were there the second time?
A: I personally did not answer the phone. I don't remember it ringing the second - I mean, when I was back there the second time, because the kids were in the kitchen.
Q: Do you recall whether the first time there any cells were made to Mr. Simpson while you were there?
A: I think they did call O.J. once they got in touch - once they found out where he was. I don't know if Cathy had given them the number and they called O.J. or O.J. called the house. I really don't know.
Q: Do you have a recollection of being at Rockingham when one or more of the detectives were talking to Mr. Simpson that morning?
A: I don't know how many detectives spoke with O.J.
Q: Do you have a recollection of being at Rockingham that morning at any time when one of the detectives spoke to Simpson?
A: Pardon?
Q: Do you remember hearing any detectives speaking to Simpson on the phone when you were there that morning?
A: I think there was a conversation between O.J. and one of the detectives.
Q: Do you know which detective was on the phone talking to Simpson?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Do you recall what the detective on the phone with Simpson said?
A: No, I don't.
Q: But you recall being there when that phone call -
A: I think they made contact with O.J.
Q: While you were there at Rockingham?
A: Maybe by the time I got back, they were maybe still on the phone, or once I was there. I don't know really when they made actual contact with O.J.
Q: Is it your best recollection that the first time you arrived at Rockingham, nobody had spoken to Simpson yet?
MR. LEONARD: Objection. Lack of foundation.
THE WITNESS: I don't know that for sure, sir.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Okay. Did you have any reason to believe when you arrived at Rockingham the first time that anybody had spoken to Mr. Simpson yet?
A: I didn't give it any thought.
Q: Okay. Is it your best recollection that by the second time you were at Rockingham, though, someone had spoken to Mr. Simpson?
A: I think at that time or time given, I think that they made contact with O.J.
Q: And you have a recollection of one of the detectives speaking to him when you were there?
A: I think so. One of the detectives was speaking to O.J., had informed O.J.
Q: And you can't tell me anything you heard the detective say to Mr. Simpson?
A: No, sir. I always stayed out of their way. I wasn't - you know, if they were over by the phone, I was like either at the door from the hallway to the kitchen or in the hallway.
Q: Okay. When you left there, you indicated you walked out the side kitchen door?
A: Yeah. Before I left, Vannatter - I mean Fuhrman said to me, "Here's my card" - no -"Call us when you get there," and Vannatter gave me his card and Fuhrman gave me his card.
Q: Okay. You had indicated that you had other discussions with Vannatter also while you were at Rockingham. Could you tell me what those were?
A: I couldn't tell you exactly because I don't remember.
Q: Just generally if you could tell me what you discussed with Vannatter .
A: I don't remember. I wasn't asking him questions. He was - I don't know when - I don't know exactly what we were talking about in the hallway before we heard Fuhrman.
Q: Okay. Did any detective ever ask you if you knew where Simpson had been the night before?
A: I don't remember that, no.
Q: Do you remember any detective asking you if you knew - if you had spoken to Simpson the night before?
A: I don't remember. They may have. They may have asked me what was the last time I had seen O.J.
Q: And what did you tell them?
A: I probably told them I had spoken to him, but I hadn't seen him in a few weeks.
Q: Were you able to give any detective any information as to Mr. Simpson's activities the previous night, June 12th, 1994, when you were at Rockingham that morning?
A: No, sir.
Q: Okay. When you left the side kitchen door of Rockingham, then, where did you go on the property to exit?
A: I walked to the driveway - walked down the driveway towards Ashford with the kids in my arms.
Q: Okay. Did you walk through the Ashford gate?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you make any observations of any blood in the driveway at that time?
A: No, sir.
Q: Any red paint?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you see any little white card markers placed anywhere in the driveway at that time?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did anybody caution you to watch your step in any way?
A: No, sir.
Q: Okay. Was Mr. Kaelin still on the premises when you left with the kids?
A: I remember seeing Kato getting into the black-and-white.
Q: Okay. Do you remember seeing him actually exit the residence itself, the house?
A: I saw him - I didn't see him on the grounds. When I got to the gate, I looked to my right and Kato was getting in the back seat of a black-and-white.
Q: Do you know what door he exited the house?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Okay. And what did you do after you got in your car then?
A: I walked Arnelle - I got the kids in my car, walked Arnelle over to a friend who came by to pick her up; I embraced her and I told her, you know, to give me a call - no. I asked for his number so I could, you know, be in touch.
Q: Was that [Name Deleted] , by any chance?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: Okay. And he was there at Rockingham that morning to pick Arnelle up?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you tell me approximately what time that was that you were leaving Rockingham the second time?
A: I don't know.
Q: Was it before 7:00 o'clock in the morning?
A: I don't know.
Q: Was it before 8:00 o'clock in the morning?
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay. What, if anything, did you say to [Name Deleted] at that time?
A: I said, "Take care of her," or, you know, something to that effect.
Q: Had you known [Name Deleted] before this morning?
A: Yes.
Q: How long had you known him for?
A: I've known him a long time. Him and Arnelle are probably the best of friends.
Q: Did [Name Deleted] write a phone number down for you?
A: Yeah, I think he gave me the number where he was.
Q: Okay. Did you ever have occasion to call that number that morning?
A: Once I got to the Browns' house, I did call to see how she was doing.
Q: Okay. Do you know what time it was when you got to the Browns' house?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Did anybody ride down to the Browns' house besides Sydney and Justin?
A: No.
Q: Do you have a car phone in that Ford Bronco?
A: No.
Q: Do you have a cellular phone? Or did you have a cellular phone on June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: And you had no car phone in your Ford Bronco on June 12th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Did you stop anywhere between Rockingham and the Browns' house in Dana Point that morning when you drove down there?
A: Could I have stopped?
Q: Did you make any stops?
A: No, I didn't make no stops.
Q: Okay. What did you do with - I am sorry. Could you tell me the first phone call you made when you got down to Browns' house that morning of June l3th?
A: I don't remember making any phone calls once I got down there.
Q: Well, I think you had indicated before you made a call to Arnelle.
A: I don't know if that was later on in the day or - you know, I don't know if it was - oh, I take that back. I did make - I called back to Rockingham to let them know that I had arrived, because they wanted me to call back to the house.
Q: Okay. And who did you speak to when you called back to Rockingham?
A: I think it was Fuhrman.
Q: Okay. Did you speak to anybody else that morning of June 13th other than that last phone call to Detective Fuhrman? Did you speak to anybody on the phone? I'm sorry.
A: I think Vannatter got on the phone for a few seconds.
Q: Okay. First of all, could you tell me what your phone conversation was with Fuhrman when you called back up to Rockingham,
A: That we had arrived in Laguna.
Q: Did you tell him anything else?
A: No.
Q: Did he ask you anything else?
A: Not that I remember.
Q: Okay. And what, if anything, did you discuss with Vannatter when you made that phone call back up there?
A: I don't know if Vannatter asked me where I could be reached at or where I would be. I told him that I would be at the Browns with the kids.
Q: Okay. Do you recall what time you arrived at the Browns' house?
A: No.
Q: Could you tell me the next time you spoke to [Name Deleted] that day?
A: I don't know. The time when I called to check on Arnelle, he answered his own phone, and I said, "This is A.C.," and I said, "How's she doing?" And he said - I guess he said, "She's all right," or whatever. Then he put her on the phone.
Q: And was that in the morning of June 13th?
A: I don't now if it was the morning, late morning or early afternoon. I don't know exactly when.
Q: Do you know how long after you had arrived down at the Browns you put a call in to [Name Deleted] ?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me, on the morning of June 13th, 1994 did you have any conversation with Cathy Randa?
A: Not to my knowledge. I don't think I spoke to Cathy at all.
Q: Could you tell me, on the morning of June 13th, 199- - I am sorry. You look like you are still thinking about it.
A: I'm trying to -
Q: Okay. Just think about it for a minute.
A: I don't remember if I did or not speak to Cathy.
Q: Could you tell me whether you spoke to Skip Taft on the morning of June 13th, l994?
A: That morning I don't remember if I did or not. I don't - I don't think so because I don't know Skip's home number by heart. I know his office number by heart, but I don't know his home number.
Q: Did you speak to Robert Kardashian at all the morning of June 13th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: Could you tell me the first time you spoke to Mr. Simpson - Did you speak to Mr. Simpson at all on June 13th, 1994?
A: Privilege.
MR.PETROCELLI: What was the question?
MR. GROMAN: Did he speak to Simpson.
MR. PETROCELLI: No -
MR. KELLY: At all on June 13th, 1994.
MR. PETROCELLI: Oh, okay.
THE WITNESS: Privilege.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Privilege. Could you tell me whether you had any conversations with Mr. Simpson prior to his arrival back from Chicago on June 13th, 1994?
A: No.
Q: No, you did not?
A: Wednesday -
MR. RE: Wait a second. The question is, before he arrived back and - between the time that you heard about the killing until the time that he returned to Los Angeles.
THE WITNESS: Oh, no. No.
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: You had no conversations -
A: No conversations.
Q: - with Mr. Simpson. Could you tell me who, if anybody, you spoke to on the telephone prior to Mr. Simpson's arrival back to Los Angeles on June 13th, 1994?
A: Who I spoke with?
Q: Yes.
MR. RE: You mean other than the people he's talked about?
BY MR. KELLY:
Q: Yeah, other than the people we've talked about already.
A: Wayne. Wayne stands out in my mind, I'm sure of. I don't know if I talked to anybody else.
Q: You don't remember talking to Cathy Randa?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you remember whether you talked to Skip Taft?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you remember whether you spoke to Robert Kardashian?
A: No, I didn't speak to Robert.
Q: Okay. Could you tell me - could you describe - Well, who was at Browns when you arrived at the Browns that morning?
A: The family.
Q: Lou was there?
A: Lou, Judy, Tanya, Dominique, I think, and Denise. And Aaron and Sean.
Q: Okay. And could you describe the situation there when you arrived there that morning?
A: Very sad with us. I don't know what Sean and Aaron knew, but they responded to their two cousins and they started jumping up and down and playing, but the rest of us was pretty taken.
Q: Do you recall any conversation you had with Lou Brown that morning when you arrived there?
A: We probably talked - what we talked about initially when we first got there, I don't remember.
Q: Do you recall having any conversations with Judy Brown when you got there this morning - that morning?
A: Right when we got there? Eventually we did talk.
Q: Could you tell me the substance of that conversation?
A: She was very upset. Nobody knew no more than what we all knew, that Nicole was dead. She seemed to be scared.
Q: Upset?
A: Yes.
Q: Crying?
A: Yes. She made a statement, ""Why"" - I think she was talking to Lou. She says, "Why we gave" - "Why didn't they take me " or "Why" - something to the effect that she would trade places.
Q: Did you have any conversations with Denise that morning?
A: Yeah, I think we did talk. About what, I don't know. I don't remember.
Q: No recollection of that conversation?
A: Everything, like I said, was very confusing, very difficult time.
Q: Do you recall having any conversations with Lou Brown regarding Mr. Simpson?
A: I don't remember.
Q: Do you recall having any conversations with Judy Brown regarding Mr. Simpson?
A: I think Judy did mention things, mentioned O.J. In what frame I don't remember, because Judy and I talked a lot that day, so I don't know where all of it falls in.
Q: Was there any discussion of Mr. Simpson having killed Nicole when you spoke to Judy that day?
A: It was discussions. I think she asked me something to that effect. I don't know if she said, "Did he do it?" or "Do you think he did it?" or - she was very - very taken.
Q: Do you recall what your response was to those questions?
A: At that time I didn't know anything. I don't know if I said if I didn't know or - I don't know for sure what I said.
Q: Okay. Did you know at that time whether or not Mr. Simpson had murdered Nicole?
A: I don't remember.
MR. KELLY: Okay, why don't we break here.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the deposition of Allen Cowlings, Volume II. The number of videotapes used was three. We are going off the record, and the time is approximately 4:50.
(ENDING TIME: 4:50 P.M.)
I DECLARE UNDER PENALTY OF PERJURY THAT THE FOREGOING IS TRUE AND CORRECT.
SUBSCRIBED AT ___________________, CALIFORNIA, THIS _____DAY OF _____ 19_____.
ALLEN COWLINGS